Saudi Cleric Denies Wanting Mickey Mouse Dead

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Video • Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 11:01 am PST • Views: 660

Syrian-born Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-Munajid responds to the evil Christians, Jews, and other infidels who accused him of calling for Mickey Mouse to be killed. (Courtesy of the evil Jewish infidels at MEMRI TV.)

Click picture to play video. Requires Windows Media Player; Mac users should install Flip4Mac.

Interviewer: Arab and Western media accused you of issuing a fatwa about the killing of Mickey Mouse. What is your response to the people of East and West?

[…]

Muhammad Al-Munajid: I never issued a fatwa about the killing of Mickey Mouse. Nobody asked me for a ruling with regard to Mickey Mouse, and I did not say that it is permissible or necessary to kill Mickey Mouse. None of this ever happened. I was talking about the effect of films on people, how they are used for Christian proselytizing, for spreading atheism, for spreading witchcraft, like in the case of Harry Potter, and for arousing urges, which make people dissatisfied with their spouses. One thing led to another, until we got to the issue of cartoons and their effect. I said that some cartoon characters, such as dogs, pigs, and mice – reprehensible animals according to the Shari’a - are glorified in animated films. I said that it is inappropriate to show such things to people, and that a mouse is a “little corrupter,” which should be killed in all cases. I mentioned Mickey Mouse, or that Jerry, by way of example only. Nobody who knows Mickey Mouse is a cartoon character would ever issue a fatwa that it should be killed. It can only be killed in the world of fantasies, movies, and dreams.

Along came the MEMRI website – that is, memri.net – which is a Jewish website run by a Mossad officer, which monitors… Even this show of yours is monitored, and they take excerpts from it.

Interviewer: What site is that?

Muhammad Al-Munajid: Memri.net. M-E-M-R-I.net.

Interviewer: What is that site?

Muhammad Al-Munajid: This is a Jewish website that monitors what the religious preachers say. Once I said that a woman must obey her husband, that if he calls her to bed she must consent, or else the angels will curse her, and that she must come to him even if she is cooking by the stove – all in accordance with the Prophet’s hadiths. The [MEMRI] website took my words and wrote: “Rape of Wives”…

They took an excerpt about Mickey Mouse… Then it was aired by four huge global TV networks – ABC, BBC, Fox News, and CNN. In other words, it was viewed by 350 million people. Some of them put the collapsing WTC building as background to the Mickey Mouse fatwa. They drew a connection between terrorism and what I said.

[…]

Interviewer: How did the networks get the material, through MEMRI?

Muhammad Al-Munajid: The MEMRI website presented many excerpts. Who provided MEMRI with the material? Only God knows, but we know for sure that there is always a connection between the “hypocrites” and their brothers, the infidels from among the People of the Book. It says so in the Koran, and there is no doubt about it.

[…]

My complaint is not directed towards them. After all, they are our enemies, and we understand why they do this. Their behavior is understandable. What I don’t understand is how some Muslims, when asked: “What’s your view on the Mickey Mouse fatwa?” can say: “This is a distortion of Islam. This fatwa must be revoked.” Brother, what is the source for what you say? Go to the individual in question, and ask him: “Did you issue this fatwa”? Nobody asked me. They jumped to conclusions…

Interviewer: This is why we invited you to Iqra TV – so you can tell the truth to Muslims.
Muhammad Al-Munajid: Fine. What was the source of all these commentators? Western networks. Brother, Allah said: “You who believe! If an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it.” All the more so when the source of the report is an infidel. Infidels! Their direct sources are the infidels! They took the report, inflated it, published it, generalized it, and so on. They said that issuing fatwas must be restricted, that this fatwa is damaging to Islam… Brother, did you call the individual in question to ask if he actually issued such a fatwa?

Interviewer: So we ask you: Did you issue such a fatwa?

Muhammad Al-Munajid: As I said before, this never happened.

[…]

They want a form of Islam that will not terrify the enemies, but such a thing is impossible, because Allah said: “The Jews and Christians will not be pleased with you until you follow their religion.” No form of Islam can please the enemies. Don’t even go there, brothers. It’s a done deal. No form of Islam can please the enemies.

And of course, he absolutely did say that Mickey Mouse should be killed “in all cases.”

Our Friends the Saudis: Mickey Mouse Must Die!

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561 comments

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1 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:02:51am

Pssst... Mickey Mouse is not real.

2 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:02:59am

How does one execute a cartoon? A giant eraser?

3 tarkus289  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:03:00am

Good grief

4 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:03:11am

The JOOOS! We are so smart!

Bwa.
Ha.
Ha.

5 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:03:19am

re: #1 Racer X

Pssst... Mickey Mouse is not real.

Say what?

6 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:03:22am

I don't care much for Mickey Mouse either, but wanting him dead is just Goofy.

7 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:03:38am

re: #1 Racer X

Whachooo talking bout, Willis?

8 winston06  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:04:15am

Sounds like Sen. H Obama a few weeks ago

9 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:04:28am

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

I don't care much for Mickey Mouse either, but wanting him dead is just Goofy.

Hey cut Mickey a break. Ya know he has a nice discount hotel for the Military down there?

10 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:04:36am

re: #5 Nevergiveup

Say what?

Carp. Sorry.

Charles - can you delete my #1? Pretend it said FIRST! or something.

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:04:46am

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

I don't care much for Mickey Mouse either, but wanting him dead is just Goofy.

Come on. Let's not Minnie-mize the seriousness of this.

12 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:05:17am

So I assume that Ayers and this guy have the same PR Agency.

13 iowavette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:05:27am

Hilarious. How about accusing him of issuing fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel or Yosesite Sam. "I did not issue fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel." Let's see, who else? "I did not issue a fatwa on Scooby Doo."

14 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:05:47am

re: #11 Charles

Come on. Let's not Minnie-mize the seriousness of this.

Oh, this thread is going to be a riot.

15 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:06:20am

Kill him? No. Maybe rough him up, though...

16 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:06:30am

re: #14 Racer X

Oh, this thread is going to be a riot.

Well, it is a Friday.

17 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:07:00am

re: #10 Racer X

Carp. Sorry.

Charles - can you delete my #1? Pretend it said FIRST! or something.

Mickey Mouse is a Carp? Know I am really disillusioned.

18 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:07:00am

re: #11 Charles

Maybe he just wants to slip him a mickey?

19 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:07:36am
Muhammad Al-Munajid: Fine. What was the source of all these commentators? Western networks. Brother, Allah said: “You who believe! If an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it.” All the more so when the source of the report is an infidel. Infidels! Their direct sources are the infidels! They took the report, inflated it, published it, generalized it, and so on.

"If an infidel quotes me, it's a lie!"

20 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:07:51am

But he probably WOULD issue a fatwa on Bender Rodregeiz, (sp),

And what would Bender say?

All together now ...

21 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:07:57am

re: #17 karmic_inquisitor

Mickey Mouse is a Carp? Know I am really disillusioned.

Don't be so koi - tell us what you really think.

22 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:03am

KILL MICKEY MOUSE? NO !
KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN AMERICA ,,, YES !

Jihad !

23 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:06am

re: #13 iowavette

Hilarious. How about accusing him of issuing fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel or Yosesite Sam. "I did not issue fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel." Let's see, who else? "I did not issue a fatwa on Scooby Doo."

Trivia question. What type of birds where Heckel and Jeckel?

24 ilyaunion  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:12am

When will Obama sit down with him and discuss how America hurt his feelings?

25 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:29am

SemiOT: Danish Muhammad Cartoonist Returns with New Work

One of the controversial Danish cartoonists who sparked riots in the Muslim world in 2005 by drawing caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad is set to return soon with new works reflecting on the incident.
...
The paper writes that one of the drawings in the book features former Danish Foreign Minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen, who spoke out against the original Muhammad cartoons, kneeling with an inkwell that reads "freedom of expression." A black-bearded man with a bomb in his turban is peering out of the inkwell. Writer Hedegaard told the paper there was "no intention to depict the so-called prophet," but that people could always interpret drawings in different ways. He said he expected no backlash as a result of the publication.

26 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:32am

re: #13 iowavette

Hilarious. How about accusing him of issuing fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel or Yosesite Sam. "I did not issue fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel." Let's see, who else? "I did not issue a fatwa on Scooby Doo."

rut row

27 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:45am

re: #23 midwestgak

Crows. (Ravens?)

28 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:08:50am

re: #2 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

How does one execute a cartoon? A giant eraser?

Didn't you see "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" They got this stuff called "Dip" that'll take care of it!

29 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:09:35am

re: #27 joncelli

Crows. (Ravens?)

Nope

30 winston06  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:02am

re: #12 karmic_inquisitor

So does Michael Moore

31 Jimmah  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:12am

What is it with Islamists and cartoons?

32 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:18am

Hi, welcome to your new job here at Disney World. Here, put on your Mickey suit and get out there among the kids.!

Uh, no thanks.

33 debutaunt  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:21am

re: #29 midwestgak

Nopermore

34 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:27am

re: #28 MrSilverDragon

Didn't you see "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" They got this stuff called "Dip" that'll take care of it!

I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.

35 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:32am

re: #28 MrSilverDragon

Who was the curvaceous gal in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

36 jcbunga  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:35am

Since he's baring his soul, how does he feel about Foghorn Leghorn?

37 iowavette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:38am

Survey says...eeehhh

Those mean and wonderful birds were MAGPIES!

38 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:38am

re: #23 midwestgak

Magpies.

39 Dave the.....  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:44am

I think my cat is an Islmo-facist. He is dead set on killing the mouse with the little red shorts.

40 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:10:48am

re: #35 Ojoe

Who was the curvaceous gal in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Jessica Rabbit.

41 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:07am

re: #37 iowavette

Survey says...eeehhh hhh

Those mean and wonderful birds were MAGPIES!

ding ding ding ding ding

42 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:19am

re: #40 Honorary Yooper

She was hot.

43 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:21am

re: #35 Ojoe

Who was the curvaceous gal in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Jessica Rabbit, of course. :)

44 RTLM  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:23am
45 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:25am

"What I said was, Goofy should be killed, since dogs are haraam! Off with his head, inshallah!"

46 Dave the.....  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:36am
"I did not issue a fatwa on Scooby Doo."

That's because those meddleing kids got in the way.

47 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:11:46am

re: #37 iowavette

Do I win? I posted at the same instant you did.

48 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:00am

re: #46 Dave the...

That's because those meddleing kids got in the way.

Rooby-doo!

49 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:04am

re: #47 elevenbravo1969

Do I win? I posted at the same instant you did.

ding ding ding ding ding

50 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:18am

re: #36 jcbunga

HAHAHAHHAHAA

Or-why haven't they tackled the eternal debate: who would YOU want on your side-Roadrunner or Willey E. Coyote?

51 iowavette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:19am

"I did not issue a fatwa's on Yogi Bear and Boo-boo."

52 Opinionated  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:21am

Between the Disney mouse and the Saudi rats, I'm with the mouse.

53 Jimmah  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:25am

If this is what they are like with Mickey Mouse, what is Ren and Stimpy going to do to them?

54 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:26am

"Those evil Zionists what with their direct quoting us.

Eveeel."

55 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:34am

Popeye would kick the imams butt - without resorting to the use of performance enhancing spinach.

56 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:35am

re: #28 MrSilverDragon

Didn't you see "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" They got this stuff called "Dip" that'll take care of it!

Can we try dipping some jihadis instead?

57 freedombilly  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:41am

And I also call on all imaginary characters from Saudi Arabia to be killed.

A cartoon eye for a cartoon eye.

58 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:12:49am

re: #36 jcbunga

Since he's baring his soul, how does he feel about Foghorn Leghorn?

Ah say, Ah say, the boy's about as bright as a pound of wet leather.

59 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:00am

re: #53 Jimmah

If this is what they are like with Mickey Mouse, what is Ren and Stimpy going to do to them?

Sell them nipples?

60 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:07am
61 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:07am

Squirel and moose

62 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:17am

re: #48 Ward Cleaver

LOL!

Why no fatwa on Thelma, for being a lesbian?

63 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:19am

"And I stand by the hadith that says a woman has to have sex with her husband even if she doesn't want to.

Or she will be CURSED!

And I thank allan for this edict, else I could never intimidate any of my slaves, I mean wives into the bedroom."

64 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:22am

re: #57 freedombilly

And I also call on all imaginary characters from Saudi Arabia to be killed.

A cartoon eye for a cartoon eye.

Yeah! Then we send in Little Orphan Annie!

65 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:25am

Don't Mess with the Mouse

Some Guinness was spilled on the barroom floor
when the pub was shut for the night.
Out of his hole crept a wee brown mouse
and stood in the pale moonlight.
He lapped up the frothy brew from the floor,
then back on his haunches he sat.
And all night long you could hear him roar,
'Bring on the fookin' cat!'

66 jcbunga  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:35am

In the words of the immortal Baghdad Bob, I now inform you that you are too far from reality.

67 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:13:55am

re: #62 WriterMom

LOL!

Why no fatwa on Thelma, for being a lesbian?

hahahahahaha

68 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:14:42am

He's holding Mickey Mouse responsible for wives becoming dissastisfied w/their husbands (& visey versa)?

69 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:14:52am

I think I found the executioner. Hassan chop!

70 freedombilly  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:14:53am

re: #12 karmic_inquisitor

So I assume that Ayers and this guy have the same PR Agency.

If he has the same PR agency as Ayers it would be the MFM.

71 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:14:55am
Then it was aired by four huge global TV networks – ABC, BBC, Fox News, and CNN.

Woohoo! Huge, Global!

72 iowavette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:14:57am

11Bravo - You, me and GAK. The last remaining Americans aware of Heckel and Jeckel. Oh, for some reason that reminds me:

"I did not issue fatwa's on Larry, Curly and Moe."

73 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:14:58am

re: #64 subsailor68

If they reall start fucking around...send in the Power Rangers.

74 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:01am

re: #62 WriterMom

LOL!

Why no fatwa on Thelma, for being a lesbian?

Geeky woman + glasses = lesbian?

75 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:15am

re: #61 midwestgak

Squirel and moose

Here's a moose:

"Sorry, folks! We're closed for two weeks to clean and repair America's favorite family fun park. Sorry, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh!"

76 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:25am

re: #71 Silhouette

But all Zionist Mossad roads lead to MEMRI!

77 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:31am

re: #73 WriterMom

If they reall start fucking around...send in the Power Rangers.

How about Team America?

78 Intrepid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:33am

But...why does Goofy wear clothes and talk, while Pluto doesn't? Would the Saudi Cleric spare Goofy (due to his human characteristics) but issue a fatwa against Pluto?

79 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:37am

re: #65 MandyManners

Don't Mess with the Mouse

Some Guinness was spilled on the barroom floor
when the pub was shut for the night.
Out of his hole crept a wee brown mouse
and stood in the pale moonlight.
He lapped up the frothy brew from the floor,
then back on his haunches he sat.
And all night long you could hear him roar,
'Bring on the fookin' cat!'

Sounds like an Irish mouse alright.

80 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:51am

re: #74 MandyManners

It's a rumour-I don't think Thelma has officially come out of the cartoon closet.

81 Jimmah  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:15:53am

re: #60 Ojoe

Jessica Rabbit, fatwa material.

That would be meltdown.

82 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:00am

re: #63 Silhouette

"And I stand by the hadith that says a woman has to have sex with her husband even if she doesn't want to.

Or she will be CURSED!

And I thank allan for this edict, else I could never intimidate any of my slaves, I mean wives into the bedroom."

My wife agrees that a woman should have sex her husband. But she told me it's up to me to find that woman, she ain't helping. That's my gal?

83 iowavette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:30am

Haha. "I did not issue a fatwa on Bullwinkle Moose." Thanks, GAK.

84 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:39am

re: #74 MandyManners

Geeky woman + glasses = lesbian?

I think it has more to do with the Pete Rose tribute haircut.

85 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:40am
They want a form of Islam that will not terrify the enemies, but such a thing is impossible,

But if I said that...

86 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:43am

re: #78 Intrepid

Because Pluto has secret connections with Uranus-it's a more sensitive topic.

87 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:45am

re: #75 Honorary Yooper

Here's a moose:

"Sorry, folks! We're closed for two weeks to clean and repair America's favorite family fun park. Sorry, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh!"

Chevy? Is that you?

88 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:16:52am

You know, they issue a fatwa against a cartoon mouse, and yet, no mention of the "Hello, Kitty! Vibrator". Those slackers.

89 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:04am

re: #69 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I think I found the executioner. Hassan chop!

That's him alright. Bugs would call them all ultra-maroons, of course.

90 Intrepid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:17am

re: #80 WriterMom

It's a rumour-I don't think Thelma has officially come out of the cartoon closet.

Jinkies!

91 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:18am

re: #82 Nevergiveup

a woman should have sex her husband

LOL. Rotate that!

92 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:26am

re: #77 subsailor68

How about Team America?

F*ck Yeah!

93 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:26am

Divorce court judge: "Mr. Mouse, I cannot grant you a divorce based solely on your claim that Minnie is crazy."

Mickey Mouse: "Your honor, I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was f---ing Goofy!"

94 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:27am

re: #77 subsailor68

How about Team America?

We could send in Marvin.

/"Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom!"

95 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:29am

re: #73 WriterMom

If they reall start fucking around...send in the Power Rangers.

How about some mental abuse?

96 JohnAdams  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:44am

re: #62 WriterMom

LOL!

Why no fatwa on Thelma, for being a lesbian?

How about Peppermint Patty?

97 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:17:50am

Cats in the zoo. Jew-eating rabbits. Hating on Mickey Mouse. This is the world we live in.

98 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:10am

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

Sounds like an Irish mouse alright.

I had to change the next-to-last word 'cause it was way worse than the "F" word.

99 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:18am

re: #88 MrSilverDragon

You know, they issue a fatwa against a cartoon mouse, and yet, no mention of the "Hello, Kitty! Vibrator". Those slackers.

Please tell me that's not real.

100 red satellite  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:24am
I mentioned Mickey Mouse, or that Jerry, by way of example only.

Alright that does it. Picking on Mickey Mouse...that's one thing...but denigrating Jerry? Enough already- the Pox on you and your family!

101 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:33am

re: #75 Honorary Yooper

Here's a moose:

"Sorry, folks! We're closed for two weeks to clean and repair America's favorite family fun park. Sorry, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh!"

"They treated me like a dog, Mr. Wally! They humiliated my human decencies!"

102 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:37am

re: #80 WriterMom

It's a rumour-I don't think Thelma has officially come out of the cartoon closet.

I always liked her more than the blonde.

103 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:54am

re: #84 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I think it has more to do with the Pete Rose tribute haircut.

Easy to care for.

104 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:54am

re: #95 MandyManners

Don't you think their lives are full of enough mental abuse already?!?!

105 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:18:58am

Okay let me try again .. he's holding Mickey Mouse responsible for dissatisfied wives/husbands? Mr. Daisy will be interested in this theory. All this time he's been thinking I get testy when he can't seem to recall where the washing machine is located.

106 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:08am

re: #96 JohnAdams

How about Peppermint Patty?

Don't know. She did have a crush on Charlie. Now Marcie on the other hand...

/Sir.

107 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:25am
108 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:30am

MEEEMRIs.
Driving me out of my mind.
Misty plots within MEMRI.
Recording all our words.

109 jcbunga  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:31am

I love Foghorn Leghorn-ism's...That boy's about as sharp as a sack of wet mice...yeeeuhhh

110 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:40am

re: #93 elevenbravo1969

Divorce court judge: "Mr. Mouse, I cannot grant you a divorce based solely on your claim that Minnie is crazy."

Mickey Mouse: "Your honor, I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was f---ing Goofy!"

*blink...blink...blink*

111 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:42am

re: #96 JohnAdams

Oh, she's for sure Lesbanese...NTTAWWT.

112 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:46am

re: #105 Daisy

Okay let me try again .. he's holding Mickey Mouse responsible for dissatisfied wives/husbands? Mr. Daisy will be interested in this theory. All this time he's been thinking I get testy when he can't seem to recall where the washing machine is located.

What's a washing machine?

113 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:19:58am

re: #102 MandyManners

I always liked her more than the blonde.

I'm officially turned on now.

114 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:14am

re: #104 WriterMom

Don't you think their lives are full of enough mental abuse already?!?!

It's self-inflicted.

115 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:16am

re: #107 ploome hineni

L'CHAIM BABY!

116 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:34am

re: #113 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

SIMMAH DOWN
SIMMAH DOWN

117 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:35am

re: #99 Honorary Yooper

Please tell me that's not real.

I regret to inform... but it is real.

118 JohnAdams  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:45am

re: #106 Honorary Yooper

Don't know. She did have a crush on Charlie. Now Marcie on the other hand...

/Sir.

I think Lucy grew up to be Hillary Clinton.

119 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:48am

re: #113 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

*sigh*

120 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:20:55am

re: #93 elevenbravo1969

LOLOLOL

121 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:21:02am

re: #78 Intrepid

Send Al-Munajid to Pluto on the next space mission. NASA can solve this.

122 Athos  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:21:19am

Well, nothing like the big lie.

123 Dustyvet  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:22:18am

re: #36 jcbunga

Since he's baring his soul, how does he feel about Foghorn Leghorn?

Foghorn would run rings around this asshat...

124 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:22:22am

Don't forget today's Joke of the day...

Micky Mouse is visiting his psychiatrist.

The Psychiatrist says, "I'm sorry, Mr. Mouse, that you think think your wife, Mini, is crazy."

Micky says, "You idiot. I didn't say she was crazy! I said that she's f#ucking Goofy!"

125 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:22:39am

re: #121 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Send Al-Munajid to Pluto on the next space mission. NASA can solve this.

We were lost, none of us knew where we were. Then Harry starts 'feeling around on all the trees' and he says... "I got it, we on Pluto", I say, 'Harry how can ya tell", and he says, "from the bark, you dummies... Ha-ha! From the bark!"

126 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:22:54am

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly threatened to hang Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili "by the balls" during the August war in Georgia, a report not denied by Putin's spokesman said on Friday.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I'm not sure that is fatal, but I bet it sure smarts?

127 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:22:56am

re: #112 Nevergiveup

What's a washing machine?

I'm not tellin' -- and don't even bother asking Mr. Daisy.

128 WriterMom  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:23:27am

re: #123 Dustyvet

Discussing of feelings between guys is totally haram. I believe the religious edict would be: DON'T GO THERE (or else).

129 Kenneth  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:24:08am

re: #11 Charles

You heard why Mickey Mouse dumped Mini Mouse?

Because she was f*cking Goofy.

130 JohnAdams  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:24:34am

re: #123 Dustyvet

Foghorn would run rings around this asshat...

On a day like today FL is heading over to the Widow Douglas's house with a bundle of flowers. "I need yuh LOVE to keep me waaahhhmmm!"

131 Dekar  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:25:01am

Most hilarious one yet... Like that guy said, they'd have a field day with Ren and Stimpy. Even I want to kill them!

132 Dustyvet  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:25:16am

re: #128 WriterMom

Discussing of feelings between guys is totally haram. I believe the religious edict would be: DON'T GO THERE (or else).

Coyote will be ordering the man a nice gift from Acme Company...:)

133 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:25:29am

bing bing bing Ricochet Rabbit.

134 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:25:49am

I wonder what these fools would make of Popeye and Olive Oil's relationship?

135 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:25:53am

re: #125 Honorary Yooper

We were lost, none of us knew where we were. Then Harry starts 'feeling around on all the trees' and he says... "I got it, we on Pluto", I say, 'Harry how can ya tell", and he says, "from the bark, you dummies... Ha-ha! From the bark!"

Then we killed and ate Harry.

136 Urso1  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:26:04am

"They want a form of Islam that will not terrify the enemies, but such a thing is impossible, because Allah said: “The Jews and Christians will not be pleased with you until you follow their religion.” No form of Islam can please the enemies. Don’t even go there, brothers. It’s a done deal. No form of Islam can please the enemies".
Straight from the horses' ass. Religion of Peace My Ass.

137 Sean  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:26:17am

Earthman, your Mickey Mouse is one big stupid dope!

138 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:26:34am

re: #134 Daisy

I wonder what these fools would make of Popeye and Olive Oil's relationship?

That's Oyl, I believe

139 Jimmah  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:26:39am

Can't remember exactly where it comes from - possibly a hadith - but there is a story that on the day of judgement, Allah will summon the artists before him and command them to bring their pictures to life...or else face an eternity in hell.

Evidently, Allah sees the drawing of pictures of living things as a threat to his creative monopoly. How a God could be so insecure must be another of those 'divine mysteries'...

140 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:27:03am

re: #126 Nevergiveup

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly threatened to hang Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili "by the balls" during the August war in Georgia, a report not denied by Putin's spokesman said on Friday.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I'm not sure that is fatal, but I bet it sure smarts?

That would just have been part of what would have befallen Saakashvili. What an enraged Putin would do to an enemy who fell into his power is not fit for saying. Imagine what happened to John McCain. Now multiply that by 3 and you might be close to how horrible Putin could make someone suffer.

141 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:27:07am

re: #124 DeafDog

Nice job there of disguising the F word.

142 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:27:09am

re: #134 Daisy

I wonder what these fools would make of Popeye and Olive Oil's relationship?

I think Popeye must have been at sea a long time for him to want Olive Oyl that bad.

143 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:27:13am

re: #134 Daisy

I wonder what these fools would make of Popeye and Olive Oil's relationship?

Not to mention Popeye's and Wimpy's!

HEY ,,,NOT that there's anything wrong with that

144 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:27:14am

re: #138 midwestgak

That's Oyl, I believe

She's Jewish?

145 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:27:26am

re: #118 JohnAdams

I think Lucy grew up to be Hillary Clinton.

Nooo.

Lucy is a capitalist.

146 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:13am

re: #144 subsailor68

No, Greek.

147 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:15am

re: #137 Sean

Earthman, your Mickey Mouse is one big stupid dope!

Refresh my memory, didn't they dress up some schmuck in a mouse costume who taught children to hate jews?

148 iowavette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:25am

"I did not issue a fatwa on Betty Boop."

149 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:26am

I get on LGF, get on the latest thread ... and here's CHARLES throwing out a pun! WAAAHHH! Late to the party! *sniffle sob*

150 JohnAdams  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:27am

re: #139 Jimmah

Can't remember exactly where it comes from - possibly a hadith - but there is a story that on the day of judgement, Allah will summon the artists before him and command them to bring their pictures to life...or else face an eternity in hell.

Evidently, Allah sees the drawing of pictures of living things as a threat to his creative monopoly. How a God could be so insecure must be another of those 'divine mysteries'...

To steal from Woody Allen: "Allah is the winner of the Zelda Fitzgerald Emotional Maturity Award."

151 mean Gene  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:32am

Don't these clowns know that we started getting translations of their every televised word around the last years of Arafat?
Dumb dummies!
They actually think they can still say one thing to us and another for Muslim consumption.

152 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:36am

re: #138 midwestgak

That's Oyl, I believe

Oy Oy Captain. Do you happen to know who Sweepea's father would be? Whimpy has the makings of that sort of dark horse, I think.

153 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:42am

re: #147 midwestgak

Refresh my memory, didn't they dress up some schmuck in a mouse costume who taught children to hate jews?

And a bee, and several other creatures.

154 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:28:46am

Charles,

Why didn't you post the video of him actually calling for the Fatwa?

So is this the thread where we discuss the Q'uran?

155 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:29:03am

re: #146 joncelli

No, Greek.

LOL! (But ooohhh, disturbing images abound.)

156 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:29:13am

re: #152 Daisy

Oy Oy Captain. Do you happen to know who Sweepea's father would be? Whimpy has the makings of that sort of dark horse, I think.

He would do anything for a hamburger.

157 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:29:19am

re: #141 elevenbravo1969

I see someone already told my joke above (using the divorce lawyer angle) so I'm feeling silly about the posting it again. At least I didn't totally drop the F bomb to boot.

158 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:29:24am

re: #144 subsailor68

She's Jewish?

hahahaha

159 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:29:37am

We could just go old school on them.

Betty Boop

160 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:29:40am

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

161 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:30:07am

re: #154 WrathofG-d

Charles,

Why didn't you post the video of him actually calling for the Fatwa?

So is this the thread where we discuss the Q'uran?

Q'uran, Q'uartoons - its all good.

162 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:30:17am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Snicker, snicker, you said erect. Ya di da di da dah.

163 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:30:28am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Do you REALLY want to start this?!

164 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:30:50am

re: #152 Daisy

Oy Oy Captain. Do you happen to know who Sweepea's father would be? Whimpy has the makings of that sort of dark horse, I think.

Sourgrapes

165 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:30:51am
166 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:30:54am

re: #148 iowavette

"I did not issue a fatwa on Betty Boop."

But if he knew about her, he'd want up to her neck in dirt having stones hurled at her head, asap. But Betty Boop would clobber the goon before he had a chance. I just know she would. She's sassy that way.

167 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:01am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Yes, to keep the American women out.

168 Sean  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:11am

re: #147 midwestgak

Yup. Farfur. Then the Jooos killed him!

169 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:13am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Or is it just another reason not to go soft on illegal immigration?

170 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:13am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

There's a "pole vault" joke in there somewhere.

171 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:30am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Maybe all the older illegals will go back now.

172 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:38am

re: #156 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

He would do anything for a hamburger.

and gladly pay you Tuesday.

173 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:42am

re: #156 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

He would do anything for a hamburger.

Lol!

174 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:50am

re: #154 WrathofG-d

Charles,

Why didn't you post the video of him actually calling for the Fatwa?

So is this the thread where we discuss the Q'uran?

Let's not go there. That could start trouble of a kind we don't need.

175 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:56am

re: #170 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

There's a "pole vault" joke in there somewhere.

Let's not drag Europeans into it.

176 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:31:58am

re: #171 Ford_Prefect

Maybe all the older illegals will go back now.

Well, even if not, they should be easier to spot.

177 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:32:03am

No bias at ABC News. None at all.

Campaign Boogeyman William Ayers Talks to ‘GMA’.

"Boogeyman" is a technical journalistic term, of course.

178 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:32:05am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Instant Rimshot

179 Teacake!  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:32:32am
They took an excerpt about Mickey Mouse... Then it was aired by four huge global TV networks – ABC, BBC, Fox News, and CNN. In other words, it was viewed by 350 million people. Some of them put the collapsing WTC building as background to the Mickey Mouse fatwa. They drew a connection between terrorism and what I said.

WTF? LOL is that even true? I don't have a tv.

180 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:32:35am

re: #170 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

There's a "pole vault" joke in there somewhere.

*giggle*

181 JohnAdams  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:32:44am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Release the horny geriatric Mexicans!

182 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:33:05am

The Saudis host/chair a UN conference on Religious Tolerance, and now we have a Saudi cleric denying public statements he is on record having uttered. Add in a president elect that makes no evasions when he profusely spews lie after lie and still a slim majority of the voting public sees no wrong. No wonder the Saudi cleric can bald-faced flat-out lie. The West collectively doesn't care about being lied to.

183 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:33:12am

Are all the fatwas about killing? Death, death, death.

Don't they ever do like our Congress and issue fatwas recognizing the Abdia District Apple Festival, or declaring June 22rd, Write A Letter To An Old Friend Day?

184 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:33:23am

re: #180 MandyManners

*giggle*

Mandy! You're BLUSHING!

185 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:33:46am

re: #149 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I get on LGF, get on the latest thread ... and here's CHARLES throwing out a pun! WAAAHHH! Late to the party! *sniffle sob*

All I can say is that it is a sign of the Apocalypse. ;)

186 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:33:51am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

Mexico City to give out Viagra to men 70 and older

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Shit, now we are gonna have to erect a higher wall at the border?

Sounds like pole vaulting skills could come in handy. Ouch.

187 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:34:11am

"Hypocrites" = Jews & Christians, because they claim to have One G-d, but (as far as the Muslims are concerned) actually have created gods with G-d. (Jews: Talmud, Golden Calf; Christians: Trinity, Jesus).

Other Infidels = all other non-Muslims, and Muslims that don't practice the type of Islam that they consider taught/commanded by Mo & smAllah.

I could go on...

But as the Hebrews say: Allah Achbar. (it translates differently in Hebrew than in Arabic)

188 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:34:58am

re: #186 Daisy

Sounds like pole vaulting skills could come in handy. Ouch.

Yeah, and the drug mules could practice their "high" jump.

189 JohnAdams  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:09am

re: #183 Silhouette

Well that brought a chuckle.

190 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:16am

re: #180 MandyManners

Quirky minds so often drift along the same paths :)

191 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:19am

re: #177 Charles

No bias at ABC News. None at all.

Campaign Boogeyman William Ayers Talks to ‘GMA’.

"Boogeyman" is a technical journalistic term, of course.

Of course. To quote Officer Barbrady, "Move along, there's nothing to see here."

192 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:20am

re: #177 Charles

Sometimes I wish they'd just come out and say, "We're the propaganda arm of the Democratic party."

193 Ford_Prefect  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:24am

I am out. All you Lizards have a nice weekend. And remember, Don't Panic!

194 Dave the.....  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:45am

Charles

No bias at ABC News. None at all.

Campaign Boogeyman William Ayers Talks to ‘GMA’.

"Boogeyman" is a technical journalistic term, of course.

I walked by a TV a work this morning and they had some CNN story on about the KKK (they still exist?). Funny, but they don't refer to them as "activists" or "boogeymen". I geuss those terms are only used for left wing terrorists.

195 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:35:49am

re: #185 FurryOldGuyJeans

All I can say is that it is a sign of the Apocalypse. ;)

Undoubtedly has ruined my day. Skimming past the first couple of dozen commnents, I figured it'd have been wrung out already.

*onset of despair*

196 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:36:17am

re: #177 Charles

No bias at ABC News. None at all.

Campaign Boogeyman William Ayers Talks to ‘GMA’.

"Boogeyman" is a technical journalistic term, of course.

"It's not terrorism because it doesn't target people, to kill or injure," Ayers said.

If Bill is on anyone's Christmas list, a dictionary would be a thoughtful gift.

ter-ror-ism - [ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation –noun "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes."

Yes, Bill, it was terrorism and your are a terrorist (and friend of BHO)...that's nice.

197 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:36:58am

re: #194 Dave the...

Charles

I walked by a TV a work this morning and they had some CNN story on about the KKK (they still exist?). Funny, but they don't refer to them as "activists" or "boogeymen". I geuss those terms are only used for left wing terrorists.

Is David Dukes a "distinguished statesman"?

198 Jimmah  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:37:04am

re: #150 JohnAdams

To steal from Woody Allen: "Allah is the winner of the Zelda Fitzgerald Emotional Maturity Award."

"The fact that Allah looks like an unhappy mental to our puny minds is merely a sign of how unworthy we are! Our minds can only misrepresent his greatness, etc..."

/

199 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:37:54am

re: #196 DeafDog

And there is the fact that he did kill someone.

And tried to kill far more. The nails in the Ft Dix bomb have only one purpose - to tear through human flesh.

200 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:38:01am

re: #196 DeafDog

"It's not terrorism because it doesn't target people, to kill or injure," Ayers said.

If Bill is on anyone's Christmas list, a dictionary would be a thoughtful gift.

ter-ror-ism - [ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation –noun "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes."

Yes, Bill, it was terrorism and your are a terrorist (and friend of BHO)...that's nice.

But they did kill & injure, not to mention the 25,000,000 Americans who would had to have been "settled", according to Praire Fire.
/SPIT

201 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:38:35am

Last update - 20:02 14/11/2008

Olmert: Israel won't reconcile with Gaza rocket fire

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Gee, you coulda fooled me?

202 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:38:44am

re: #192 joncelli

Sometimes I wish they'd just come out and say, "We're the propaganda arm of the Democratic party."

Why say it when they can deny it with a straight face and crossed fingers. I keep thinking of guilty little kid denials of not doing something wrong every time they try to say and show how impartial and unbiased they are.

203 ROPMA  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:01am

OT At least we still have the bill of rights...For now.

204 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:03am

re: #197 Nevergiveup

Is David Dukes a "distinguished statesman"?

Ever since he came out on the side of the poor oppressed muslims, yes.

205 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:24am
...Along came the MEMRI website – that is, memri.net – which is a Jewish website run by a Mossad officer, which monitors... Even this show of yours is monitored, and they take excerpts from it...


The implication being MEMRI provided false translations which is patently absurd.

There are many Arab linguists that would love to catch MEMRI in a mistranslation. They've not done so yet.

Suck it up Muhammad Al-Munajid. You were busted yet again.

206 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:26am

re: #203 ROPMA

OT At least we still have the bill of rights...For now.

Soon we'll have two!

207 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:32am

re: #196 DeafDog

"It's not terrorism because it doesn't target people, to kill or injure," Ayers said.

Right Bill. Now explain how your girlfriend died. Self-absorbed doesn't begin to describe him; Ayers is psychopath.

208 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:36am

re: #196 DeafDog

Hold on a bit. Since you bring this up. Yes, there might be a technical definition, but I also think there is a "use" definition.

I believe there is a big difference between those that target a building without anyone in it, or which is a military target, and those that purposefully target civilians.

209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:39:55am

re: #199 Silhouette

And there is the fact that he did kill someone.

And tried to kill far more. The nails in the Ft Dix bomb have only one purpose - to tear through human flesh.

But those targeted by those bombs were not human.

/// sounds like Muslim clerics saying why jihad is approved against non-Muslims.

210 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:40:05am

In other news, the SCOTUS has sided with the Navy on its use of sonar in training exercises.

When asked for comment, Shamu responded "Eh?"

211 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:40:29am

OK, I'll write it for the 1000th time.

Embarrassment will bring victory.

212 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:40:55am

re: #211 Ben Hur

OK, I'll write it for the 1000th time.

Embarrassment will bring victory.

you've been counting?

213 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:41:28am

anyone for a friday afternoon drinking thread

214 tfc3rid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:41:36am

A thinking person would assume these people are writing parodies for some sitcom... The problem is, these people really think this way...

215 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:41:38am

re: #200 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

But they did kill & injure, not to mention the 25,000,000 Americans who would had to have been "settled", according to Praire Fire.
/SPIT


I stand corrected, but reassert the need for Bill to get a dictionary.

BTW - Did you ever wonder what was greatest word of all time...it's "callipygian" Chicks dig it.

216 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:41:44am

re: #212 WrathofG-d

you've been counting?

If I've told you once, I've told you a million times. Stop exaggerating.

:-)

217 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:42:11am

re: #210 subsailor68

In other news, the SCOTUS has sided with the Navy on its use of sonar in training exercises.

When asked for comment, Shamu responded "Eh?"

Should I give you an up-ping for that?
Aren't they really down-pings?
Us airedales get confused. Help me out.

218 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:42:12am

re: #213 yochanan

anyone for a friday afternoon drinking thread

This one already is. Everybodies in the back room.

219 jorline  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:42:25am
like in the case of Harry Potter, and for arousing urges, which make people dissatisfied with their spouses.

Screw Viagra...I'm renting Harry Potter this weekend. How in the hell to you become dissatisfied with your spouse by watching HP...am I missing something? Must be wand envy.

No form of Islam can please the enemies.


No form of the enemies can please Islam.

Fixed that for you Muhammad.

220 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:42:33am

re: #211 Ben Hur

OK, I'll write it for the 1000th time.

Embarrassment will bring victory.

William Ayers is well past being embarrassable. If you forced his deeds before his face, he would claim them proudly.

221 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:42:50am

re: #208 WrathofG-d

Hold on a bit. Since you bring this up. Yes, there might be a technical definition, but I also think there is a "use" definition.

I believe there is a big difference between those that target a building without anyone in it, or which is a military target, and those that purposefully target civilians.

I'm curious. Would you refer to the first WTC bombing as a terrorist act? Or not.

222 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:12am

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Should I give you an up-ping for that?
Aren't they really down-pings?
Us airedales get confused. Help me out.

Ha ha! You know, I don't really know. We were always passive - going active not good for health.

:-)

223 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:12am

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Should I give you an up-ping for that?
Aren't they really down-pings?
Us airedales get confused. Help me out.

A marine getting confused? Oh lawdy, how ironic ;)

224 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:12am

re: #208 WrathofG-d

Hold on a bit. Since you bring this up. Yes, there might be a technical definition, but I also think there is a "use" definition.

I believe there is a big difference between those that target a building without anyone in it, or which is a military target, and those that purposefully target civilians.

One is a murderer and the other is called an arsonist?

225 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:14am

re: #211 Ben Hur

OK, I'll write it for the 1000th time.

Embarrassment will bring victory.

Stan hates to be mocked.

226 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:15am

found a great beer OLD RASPUTIN RUSSIAN IMPERAL STOUT AT 9%

227 Teacake!  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:29am
The West collectively doesn't care about being lied to.

Yep. Otherwise a guy like obama would never win a presidential election.

228 Land Shark  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:34am

re: #183 Silhouette

Are all the fatwas about killing? Death, death, death.

Don't they ever do like our Congress and issue fatwas recognizing the Abdia District Apple Festival, or declaring June 22rd, Write A Letter To An Old Friend Day?

Ain't that something? And mind you, this is the religion of peace we're talking about.

229 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:38am

re: #220 Dark_Falcon

William Ayers is well past being embarrassable. If you forced his deeds before his face, he would claim them proudly.

He already is.

230 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:40am

re: #200 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

If there was ever a guy who really needed to be 'hoist with his own petard...'

BTW I'd like to take that flag he's standing on and, since it's defiled already, shove it up his ass.

231 Dustyvet  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:43:50am

The best cartoon mouse of all time:


Sniffles...:)


232 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:44:14am

re: #196 DeafDog

Agreed. The FLQ (Front de libération du Québec) terrorists in Quebec blew up mail boxes in the 70s. They were terrorists.

233 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:44:38am

re: #221 Daisy

Insofar that it is my understanding that there were people in the WTC at the time, and/or the perpetrators intended there to be, and it was their intent to target innocent civilians...yes, of course.

Why?

234 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:44:40am

re: #223 FurryOldGuyJeans

A marine getting confused? Oh lawdy, how ironic ;)

Son of a career Marine.
4 years in the Navy -- early-mid Sixties -- carrier in the Tonkin Gulf.

235 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:44:54am

re: #219 jorline

"How in the hell to you become dissatisfied with your spouse by watching HP...am I missing something? "

Perhaps he has a secret crush on Harry Potter.

236 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:16am

Willy Ayers and Muhammad Al-Munajid: enemies of liberty.

237 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:24am

re: #232 J.S.
THE FLQ also murdered a politican i was in quebec when the canuks did the WAR MEASURES ACT. fun seeing canadian forces on every corner with loaded weapons.

238 twenglish  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:25am

It takes a very brave man to kill a cartoon character , first the candidate cartoon assassin must graduate from the school of mercilessly beat up stuffed animals and achieve that honor without recieving any injury from Tigger...

I can't believe it , did I really just say that ?

Believe me I haven't been drinking , not one drop ...


lmao

239 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:28am

re: #234 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Son of a career Marine.
4 years in the Navy -- early-mid Sixties -- carrier in the Tonkin Gulf.

Oh, ok. I have to apologize to a fellow squidie, then. ;)

240 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:36am

re: #235 Daisy

"How in the hell to you become dissatisfied with your spouse by watching HP...am I missing something? "

Perhaps he has a secret crush on Harry Potter.

Umm...wouldn't that be Dumbledore?

241 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:36am

re: #202 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why say it when they can deny it with a straight face and crossed fingers. I keep thinking of guilty little kid denials of not doing something wrong every time they try to say and show how impartial and unbiased they are.

The cats know better.

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:51am

re: #222 subsailor68

Ha ha! You know, I don't really know. We were always passive - going active not good for health.

:-)

So you're admitting to having been passive-aggressive?

:-) ... too good to pass up

243 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:45:55am

OT - Seattle will NOT ban nudity in public parks.

That is all.

/isn't it cold up there?

244 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:46:25am

File under things you don't see in Hollywood everyday, a U-2 just flew over at very low altitude.

245 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:46:41am

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

So you're admitting to having been passive-aggressive?

:-) ... too good to pass up

Sigh. When you open the door, ya just know someone's gonna walk through it.

:-)

246 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:47:13am

re: #244 bulwrk

File under things you don't see in Hollywood everyday, a U-2 just flew over at very low altitude.

Has the government just declared the liberal Hollywood left enemies of the state?

247 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:47:26am

re: #245 subsailor68

Sigh. When you open the door, ya just know someone's gonna walk through it.

:-)

LOL!

248 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:47:34am

re: #244 bulwrk

File under things you don't see in Hollywood everyday, a U-2 just flew over at very low altitude.

Sounds like someone up there's missed the point.

:-)

249 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:47:44am

re: #244 bulwrk

File under things you don't see in Hollywood everyday, a U-2 just flew over at very low altitude.

or anywhere else.

250 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:48:00am

re: #244 bulwrk

File under things you don't see in Hollywood everyday, a U-2 just flew over at very low altitude.

What the heck was that all about? I didn't see it but my hubby did. I have the police scanner on for Pasadena and they are getting multiple reports of two military jets and a U-2. The cops don't know what's going on either.

251 Dustyvet  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:48:01am

re: #238 twenglish

It takes a very brave man to kill a cartoon character , first the candidate cartoon assassin must graduate from the school of mercilessly beat up stuffed animals and achieve that honor without recieving any injury from Tigger...

I can't believe it , did I really just say that ?

Believe me I haven't been drinking , not one drop ...


lmao

Fermented root beer?

252 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:48:19am

re: #243 Silhouette

OT - Seattle will NOT ban nudity in public parks.

That is all.

/isn't it cold up there?

You women all know about shrinkage in cold weather right?

254 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:48:32am
255 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:48:45am

re: #243 Silhouette

OT - Seattle will NOT ban nudity in public parks.

That is all.

/isn't it cold up there?

And wet.
/"There was significant shrinkage!"

256 quickjustice  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:48:48am

Disney has lobbied Congress successfully to extend the copyright on Mickey Mouse and the other Disney characters for 300 years. They should have expired back in the 1980s, putting the right to copy Mickey in the public domain. "Public domain" means anyone could have copied Mickey in future without paying a royalty to Disney.

I say "Free Mickey Mouse and his friends from the corporate oppressors!" ;-)

257 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:01am

re: #246 Outrider

lol, I'll start to worry when the B-52 shows up.

258 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:12am

re: #233 WrathofG-d

Insofar that it is my understanding that there were people in the WTC at the time, and/or the perpetrators intended there to be, and it was their intent to target innocent civilians...yes, of course.

Why?

"I believe there is a big difference between those that target a building without anyone in it, or which is a military target, and those that purposefully target civilians."

I think it's wise to assume that any buildings intended for human use, could be occupied at any time.

259 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:16am

re: #243 Silhouette

OT - Seattle will NOT ban nudity in public parks.

That is all.

/isn't it cold up there?

That's kinda perky, or is it shrivelled?

260 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:25am

re: #244 bulwrk

File under things you don't see in Hollywood everyday, a U-2 just flew over at very low altitude.

Bono's in town?

261 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:31am

re: #238 twenglish

<
Believe me I haven't been drinking , not one drop ...


lmao

Sounds like you're in denial. You know they say the first step is . . .

262 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:49am

re: #257 bulwrk

lol, I'll start to worry when the B-52 shows up.

By that time it's already to late

263 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:57am

re: #260 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Bono's in town?

Hahahahahahahaha!

264 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:49:59am

re: #255 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

damn you how do i get beer off my monintor?

265 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:14am

re: #252 Nevergiveup

You women all know about shrinkage in cold weather right?

How would we know? :)

266 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:25am

re: #240 subsailor68

Umm...wouldn't that be Dumbledore?

I'd be 'going above my pay-scale' if I attempted to answer that one :)

267 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:26am

re: #257 bulwrk

lol, I'll start to worry when the B-52 shows up.

Why? It's just on the way to the Love Shack.

268 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:28am

re: #264 yochanan

damn you how do i get beer off my monintor?

A straw?

269 jorline  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:29am

re: #235 Daisy

"How in the hell to you become dissatisfied with your spouse by watching HP...am I missing something? "

Perhaps he has a secret crush on Harry Potter.

Me thinks you have a point, Daisy.

270 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:38am

re: #261 midwestgak

<
Believe me I haven't been drinking , not one drop ...


lmao

Sounds like you're in denial. You know they say the first step is . . .

sounds like you need a drink
(_)>

271 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:40am

re: #250 Pvt Bin Jammin

I don't know but it was low and slow and very loud.

272 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:50:54am

re: #29 midwestgak

Nope

magpies

273 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:51:06am

re: #264 yochanan

damn you how do i get beer off my monintor?

Sayeth Mandy:

SHOOT YER COMPUTER!

274 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:51:30am

re: #271 bulwrk

I don't know but it was low and slow and very loud.

Is there an air show going on somewhere close by?

275 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:51:39am

The U2 was probably looking for the streets with no name.
But they still haven't found what they're looking for.

276 Twenglish  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:51:47am

Well actually I used to hit the "Zatarains" every once in awhile , but I'm strictly a tee totaler now ..I stick to Diet Cola /

277 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:51:50am

re: #271 bulwrk

I heard it and ran outside but there were too many trees for me to see it. I thought the U-2's would be in mothballs.

278 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:51:51am

re: #267 Honorary Yooper

Why? It's just on the way to the Love Shack.

Hennnrrry... :)

279 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:52:13am

re: #271 bulwrk

I don't know but it was low and slow and very loud.

Sounds like a newlywed couple

280 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:52:24am

re: #272 HoosierHoops

magpies

yep

How you doin this fine Friday p.m?

281 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:52:26am

re: #258 Daisy

I hate to have this discussion as it will ultimately be used against me I am sure, but...

No. I disagree. If you target a building at a time when you know noone is going to be in it, I don't think it is the same as targeting a building when you know people are going to be in it.

282 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:52:29am

i remember just after sept 11 seeing a fighter flying very low over chicago
was i impressed

283 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:52:59am
284 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:53:08am

re: #250 Pvt Bin Jammin

What the heck was that all about? I didn't see it but my hubby did. I have the police scanner on for Pasadena and they are getting multiple reports of two military jets and a U-2. The cops don't know what's going on either.

What?

285 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:53:24am

Well the Justice Department just approved the merger of Inbev and Budweiser. Well that sucks. Drink American. Lets see what am I drinking today-hum "Blue Moon" --OOPS ---never mind

286 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:53:46am

re: #277 Pvt Bin Jammin

I heard it and ran outside but there were too many trees for me to see it. I thought the U-2's would be in mothballs.

Heading?

Perhaps going to check on the fire? I did not see or hear it in the SF Valley.

287 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:54:49am

re: #286 Racer X

Heading?

Perhaps going to check on the fire? I did not see or hear it in the SF Valley.

Racer - is the first still burning out of control?

288 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:01am

re: #277 Pvt Bin Jammin

I heard it and ran outside but there were too many trees for me to see it. I thought the U-2's would be in mothballs.

Nope. Like Kelly Johnson's other designs, the U2 has far outlasted its thought-of service life.

289 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:05am

re: #284 MandyManners

It's probably going to turn out to be preparations for a fly-over or air show but it's kind of weird that the local police weren't told. Pasadena Police helicopter was airborne when it happened.

290 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:06am

OT:

Movin' Out (enjoy, smile, sing...its Friday...)

291 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:12am

This headline is wrong on so many levels:

Prosecutors: Man Shot 45 Times by Best Friend Lived Through First 32 Shots

Best friend?
Are ya sure it wasn't the first 33?

292 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:21am

northcoastbrewing russian imperal stout 9% great stuff.

293 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:32am

re: #258 Daisy

The assholes that blew up the UW Madison Physics building back in 1970 said that they purposely set the thing off at 3 a.m. so nobody would get hurt. Tell that to the wife and kids of Mr. Fassnacht, who was working in his office or lab that morning. Mr. Fassnacht was murdered in the blast.

294 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:32am

re: #287 midwestgak

Racer - is the first still burning out of control?

Oprahs house is in the conflagration? Quick! Call the Big O.

295 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:51am

re: #286 Racer X

Heading?

Perhaps going to check on the fire? I did not see or hear it in the SF Valley.

Why would two jets and a U-2 be needed?

296 Twenglish  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:55:57am

Must be the Mango Fruit Milk I just drunk . either that or Muhammad Al-Munajid has been eating magice mushrooms again ...lol

297 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:56:25am

re: #274 Outrider

Not that I know of, and I attend most of them.

298 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:56:43am

re: #295 MandyManners

Why would two jets and a U-2 be needed?

Well with Obama coming in what else are they ever gonna be used for?

299 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:06am

re: #289 Pvt Bin Jammin

It's probably going to turn out to be preparations for a fly-over or air show but it's kind of weird that the local police weren't told. Pasadena Police helicopter was airborne when it happened.

According to Air Shows Calendar.com, the only air show in the country this weekend is in Florida.

300 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:08am

re: #286 Racer X

On the police scanner they said most of the reports were from the west side but my hubby said it flew east over Arcadia and then back west. Not near the fire and it was escorted by two other military type jets.

301 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:11am

re: #298 Nevergiveup

Well with Obama coming in what else are they ever gonna be used for?

Spying on Republicans.

302 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:13am

re: #287 midwestgak

Racer - is the first still burning out of control?

fire - I don't know where first came from.

303 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:22am

re: #281 WrathofG-d

I hate to have this discussion as it will ultimately be used against me I am sure, but...

No. I disagree. If you target a building at a time when you know noone is going to be in it, I don't think it is the same as targeting a building when you know people are going to be in it.

Hey, it's okay. We don't have to discuss it. But wait until you've raised a slew of teenagers and then get back to me about 'empty' buildings :) (hint: they're never empty) And I do think defining what constitutes a terrorist is a worthwhile endeavor. In fact, I was willing (some #'s of posts up) to consider it arguable whether Ayers was a terrorist or a CEO, as it were, of terrorists.

304 BignJames  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:46am

I got yer fatwa.

305 Raven1  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:57:57am

They supposedly don't want good ole Mick dead, But that hussy Minnie is definitely in need of some head to toe cover-up.

306 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:06am

re: #301 subsailor68

Spying on Republicans.

Over Hollywood?

307 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:08am

re: #297 bulwrk

Not that I know of, and I attend most of them.

Perhaps they are heading to a local air base prior to deployment for an exercise at NTC? Best I can come up with.

308 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:24am

re: #305 Raven1

They supposedly don't want good ole Mick dead, But that hussy Minnie is definitely in need of some head to toe cover-up.

She doesn't even wear a top!

309 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:34am

re: #286 Racer X

It flew west over Hollywood then turned north,maybe heading out to the Lockheed plant in Palmdale about 70 miles north of LA.

310 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:44am

re: #306 Honorary Yooper

Over Hollywood?

LOL! Guess they were really, really, really lost.

311 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:52am
dogs, pigs, and mice – reprehensible animals according to the Shari’a

When I read the Koran in bed at night, my dog sleeps right there beside me. Sometimes he might even sniff or lick the Koran.

I want my fatwa!

312 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:58:54am

re: #300 Pvt Bin Jammin

On the police scanner they said most of the reports were from the west side but my hubby said it flew east over Arcadia and then back west. Not near the fire and it was escorted by two other military type jets.

That would suck if someone stole a U2 and the jets are herding it.

313 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:04am

re: #230 elevenbravo1969

If there was ever a guy who really needed to be 'hoist with his own petard...'

BTW I'd like to take that flag he's standing on and, since it's defiled already, shove it up his ass.

Along with the flagpole. Sideways.

314 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:07am

re: #293 elevenbravo1969

The assholes that blew up the UW Madison Physics building back in 1970 said that they purposely set the thing off at 3 a.m. so nobody would get hurt. Tell that to the wife and kids of Mr. Fassnacht, who was working in his office or lab that morning. Mr. Fassnacht was murdered in the blast.

I understand- see my post #303.

315 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:17am

re: #308 Honorary Yooper

She doesn't even wear a top!

And Donald Duck doesn't even wear pants!

316 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:24am

re: #299 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I live near the Rose Bowl. Last weekend we had nothing but fighters but that was because of the UCLA/Oregon State game falling on Veteran's Day weekend. The police knew about that in advance but obviously were not told about this.

317 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:26am

re: #287 midwestgak

Racer - is the fire still burning out of control?

The winds have died down a bit but still looks bad.

318 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:33am

re: #280 midwestgak

yep

How you doin this fine Friday p.m?


2 more hours Gak..then the 3day weekend..That means monday morning
when all the morning gang are here wishing they had baileys in thier coffee..
we can be doing the real thing...

319 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 11:59:47am

burp

320 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:00:06pm

re: #308 Honorary Yooper

She doesn't even wear a top!

uh, what would be the point? There's nothing there. lol

321 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:00:09pm

re: #312 Outrider

That would suck if someone stole a U2 and the jets are herding it.

Not the best plane to try to make a getaway in. Slow, unarmed & hard to handle.

322 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:00:24pm

re: #311 Cato the Elder
koran should be read in the washroom

323 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:00:56pm

I think this guy's just ticked because he went to the Magic Kingdom before the Fast Pass was available.

324 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:01:14pm
325 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:01:27pm

re: #281 WrathofG-d

Wrath, maybe look up the last few comments on the previous thread. I posted a link to a Wiki U.S. definition of terrorism. In the United States, if you blow up anything (from pipelines, to buildings, to mail boxes) and you do so with the intent to intimidate the government into acting and/or trying to coerce the government into changing its policies, (in other words, you have used violence with a political motivation), then, you're a terrorist. (btw, in the UK you've got those animal protection freaks, who run around and burn down laboratories -- they're terrorist arsonists.)

326 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:02:17pm

re: #281 WrathofG-d

I hate to have this discussion as it will ultimately be used against me I am sure, but...

No. I disagree. If you target a building at a time when you know noone is going to be in it, I don't think it is the same as targeting a building when you know people are going to be in it.

Maybe not the same, but both are terrorism.

Trying to frighten people by even threats of violence to further your political agenda

327 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:02:43pm

re: #321 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Not the best plane to try to make a getaway in. Slow, unarmed & hard to handle.

Thieves aren't the sharpest crayons in the box.

I remember back in the late 70s, someone stole an M60 tank at Fort Carson and headed through Colorado Springs with it. It was unarmed of course.

328 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:03:08pm

re: #324 Killgore Trout

Flying fish

WOW!

329 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:03:08pm

re: #291 subsailor68

This headline is wrong on so many levels:

Prosecutors: Man Shot 45 Times by Best Friend Lived Through First 32 Shots

Best friend?
Are ya sure it wasn't the first 33?

Man falls 11 stories. Lives through the first 10.

330 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:03:12pm

re: #324 Killgore Trout

Flying fish

Ron Paul! LOL

331 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:03:37pm

re: #303 Daisy

Sure there is always going to be unintended circumstances, and so maybe that it what it comes down to: Intent.

If say, the Terrorists had called and stated that they were going to blow up the wtc at this time, etc., and people decided not to leave...would you consider that the same as what happened on 9/11?

I wouldn't

332 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:04:01pm

re: #318 HoosierHoops

2 more hours Gak..then the 3day weekend..That means monday morning
when all the morning gang are here wishing they had baileys in thier coffee..
we can be doing the real thing...

Ah yes.

333 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:04:11pm

re: #327 Outrider

Thieves aren't the sharpest crayons in the box.

I remember back in the late 70s, someone stole an M60 tank at Fort Carson and headed through Colorado Springs with it. It was unarmed of course.

I knew a guy in high school who tried to steal a monkey from the Six Flags safari.

334 poopeedoo  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:04:11pm

re: #13 iowavette

Hilarious. How about accusing him of issuing fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel or Yosesite Sam. "I did not issue fatwa's on Heckel and Jeckel." Let's see, who else? "I did not issue a fatwa on Scooby Doo."

Lol!

335 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:04:50pm

re: #333 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I knew a guy in high school who tried to steal a monkey from the Six Flags safari.

Need a date for the prom did he? ;-)>

336 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:04:54pm

re: #328 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Also see: AirJelly (click the video link)

337 poopeedoo  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:06:01pm

re: #23 midwestgak

Trivia question. What type of birds where Heckel and Jeckel?

Magpies (if it hasn't already been said.)

338 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:06:03pm

re: #281 WrathofG-d

I hate to have this discussion as it will ultimately be used against me I am sure, but...

No. I disagree. If you target a building at a time when you know noone is going to be in it, I don't think it is the same as targeting a building when you know people are going to be in it.

Trouble is, people turn up at unexpected times and places. Terrorists don't give a damn about the "collateral damage". Broken eggs, omelets, and all that.

339 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:06:04pm

re: #331 WrathofG-d

During the Troubles in Northern Ireland the Brits and the IRA arranged a system whereby the IRA would call up before they set up a bomb and give a pre-arranged code so that the Brits could evacuate the area before the bomb went off. Was the IRA, then, not a terrorist group?

340 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:06:37pm

What kind of world do we live in where a fatwa can be issued for Mickey Mouse yet Spongebob gets a free pass?
oh the humanity!

341 tfc3rid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:07:29pm

FYI and OT:

Sounds like Sean Hannity is going to have Chris Cuomo on his radio show... Not sure what time...

342 Catttt  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:07:53pm

OT

HUGE wow - flying pig thing.

I agree with Rep. Kucinich on something.

343 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:07:54pm

re: #318 HoosierHoops

2 more hours Gak..then the 3day weekend..That means monday morning
when all the morning gang are here wishing they had baileys in thier coffee..
we can be doing the real thing...

Actually, my Fridays end at 3:00 p.m. Pretty sweet.

344 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:07:56pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Also see: AirJelly (click the video link)

Gorgeous!
Now THAT is engineering!

345 superjan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:08:13pm

Who Cares, Mickey always was a irritating cocky little sod.

346 Racer X  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:08:26pm

re: #341 tfc3rid

FYI and OT:

Sounds like Sean Hannity is going to have Chris Cuomo on his radio show... Not sure what time...

Click "listen live"

347 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:08:42pm

re: #333 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I knew a guy in high school who tried to steal a monkey from the Six Flags safari.

On the subject of stupid, there was a guy in the 60's on the old diesel boats. Not sure if this story is true, but from the guys who knew him, it sure could be.

Guy's dad told him to put the old dog on the farm out of its misery. He wanted to make sure the dog didn't suffer, and didn't feel comfortable with his .22 rifle.

He figured the best and quickest way would be to tie a stick of the dynamite his dad had to blow tree stumps to the dog's tail. He did.

The hissing of the fuse scared the old dog so badly that it ran and hid under the dad's brand new pickup.

And that's how this guy ended up in the Navy.

348 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:08:50pm

Arabic is a magic language.

It can't be translated.

349 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:08:59pm

re: #342 Cattt

got a link?

350 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:08pm

re: #342 Cattt

OT

HUGE wow - flying pig thing.

I agree with Rep. Kucinich on something.

I was thinking the same thing? I gotta have more to drink I think? I think?

351 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:09pm

re: #343 midwestgak

Actually, my Fridays end at 3:00 p.m. Pretty sweet.

don't tell anyone..But I'm sneaking out soon..ssshhh!

352 Catttt  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:11pm

re: #343 midwestgak

Actually, my Fridays end at 3:00 p.m. Pretty sweet.

My Fridays are Thursdays. :D

353 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:24pm
354 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:30pm

re: #341 tfc3rid

FYI and OT:

Sounds like Sean Hannity is going to have Chris Cuomo on his radio show... Not sure what time...

Hope he nails him for the Ayers' whitewash.

355 3 wood  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:33pm

The DOW has come back to 45 points up.

I suspect that the short sellers (Killian?) are dumping out of their positions for the weekend so they can get some sleep.

But I also look for the hammering of stocks to keep up next Monday.

And on the good news side, the New York Times set another 52 week low yesterday at $7.33 a share.

I will buy lunch for any local LGFr's when (notice I did not say "if") the NYT goes bankrupt.

That will be a day of celebration indeed.

356 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:40pm

re: #340 HoosierHoops

What kind of world do we live in where a fatwa can be issued for Mickey Mouse yet Spongebob gets a free pass?
oh the humanity!

Hell, if anyone deserves a Fatwa it would be Barney, that purple dinosaur. Rumor has it he is a spokesman for Discovery Institute.

357 Catttt  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:43pm

re: #349 yochanan

got a link?

He's on Fox talking to Shep about the bailout, and he's fricking making sense. Damn.

358 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:09:46pm
Hadith:
Volume 3, Book 29, Number 55:
Narrated Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said, "Five kinds of animals are harmful and could be killed in the Haram. These are: the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the rabid dog."

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 446:
Narrated Maimuna:
A mouse fell into the butter-fat and died. The Prophet was asked about that. He said, "Throw away the mouse and the butter-fat that surrounded it, and eat the rest of the butter-fat (As-Samn).

Remind me to check the butter for signs of Mickey the next time we go out for Muslim food.//

359 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:10:02pm

re: #349 yochanan

got a link?

FOX

360 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:10:07pm

re: #353 Iron Fist

Was the monkey armed?

No. But he outwitted my friend.

361 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:10:19pm

re: #325 J.S.

The Government has a large interest in labeling anything that threatens their complete power as something as evil and illegal as "Terrorism", insofar that under that definition any actual acts against their complete power can be made "evil" and illegal. Furthermore, that definition alone makes all forms of warfare "Terrorism", as that is exactly the definition of War. (using violence to get the Government to do what you want)

I am only giving my definition, and that does not include blowing up pipelines, making verbal threats, or blowing up buildings with when you are sure that no one is in them.

If it is not your intent to purposefully target civilians, through guerrilla tactics, then its not "terrorism" where I am concerned.

362 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:10:31pm

re: #353 Iron Fist

Was the monkey armed?

Was the monkey the beerdrinking victory kind?

363 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:10:52pm

re: #339 joncelli

In the instances wherein they called 1st? No.

364 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:10pm

re: #353 Iron Fist

Was the monkey armed?

Yep.

365 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:17pm

re: #356 Outrider

Hell, if anyone deserves a Fatwa it would be Barney, that purple dinosaur. Rumor has it he is a spokesman for Discovery Institute.

And Michelle Obama was in part responsible for him getting on PBS.

366 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:17pm

re: #352 Cattt

My Fridays are Thursdays. :D

Rub it in. :)

367 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:30pm

what did he say?

368 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:33pm
369 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:37pm

re: #2 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

How does one execute a cartoon? A giant eraser?

Ain't ya never seen "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" You use "Dip".///

Of course, something was lost in translation. He meant Mighty Mouse, not Mickey. Might Mouse is a Zionist hero; Mickey was the creation of the anti-Zionist Disney!///

370 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:11:40pm
371 Catttt  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:12:02pm

re: #366 midwestgak

Rub it in. :)

And I have all next week off.

/kicks paws in air and laughs. :D

372 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:12:19pm

re: #347 subsailor68

On the subject of stupid, there was a guy in the 60's on the old diesel boats. Not sure if this story is true, but from the guys who knew him, it sure could be.

Guy's dad told him to put the old dog on the farm out of its misery. He wanted to make sure the dog didn't suffer, and didn't feel comfortable with his .22 rifle.

He figured the best and quickest way would be to tie a stick of the dynamite his dad had to blow tree stumps to the dog's tail. He did.

The hissing of the fuse scared the old dog so badly that it ran and hid under the dad's brand new pickup.

And that's how this guy ended up in the Navy.


Did you ever put styro cups in the sail before a dive?
real tiny little tea cups afterwards..pretty cool looking.

373 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:12:19pm

re: #365 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

And Michelle Obama was in part responsible for him getting on PBS.

ahhh the conspiracy tightens. Call Ron Paul.

374 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:12:23pm
375 poopeedoo  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:08pm

re: #102 MandyManners

I always liked her more than the blonde.

Better than Fred? He was the blonde. Daphne was the red head. Velma kept losing her glasses ~ annoying!

376 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:10pm

The mullahs better watch out for Mighty Mouse!

377 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:13pm

re: #338 Son of the Black Dog

If the purpose is to kill innocent civilians through guerrilla tactics then that is terrorism.

If the near targeting of innocent civilians is "terrorism" then we were some major big time terrorists in WW2.

378 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:15pm

re: #342 Cattt

OT

HUGE wow - flying pig thing.

I agree with Rep. Kucinich on something.

Quick, give me the aluminum foil! The black helicopter is firing gamma bursts at my brain!///

379 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:35pm

re: #372 HoosierHoops

Did you ever put styro cups in the sail before a dive?
real tiny little tea cups afterwards..pretty cool looking.

Nope, not that I recall. But there was a time when some moron left one of those official Navy coffee cups in the sail. Started bangin' around at just about the worst possible time.

;-)

380 Erik The Red  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:50pm

Good evening Lizards from a lovely spring evening in Durban S, Africa. Please help your selves to a wee...Dram

381 Wilderstad  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:54pm

re: #139 Jimmah

Can't remember exactly where it comes from - possibly a hadith - but there is a story that on the day of judgement, Allah will summon the artists before him and command them to bring their pictures to life...or else face an eternity in hell.

Evidently, Allah sees the drawing of pictures of living things as a threat to his creative monopoly. How a God could be so insecure must be another of those 'divine mysteries'...

Not to mention what a dope Allah was to give human beings the capacity create art in the first place. Islam seems to hate most forms of self expression and investigation.

382 Nevergiveup  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:13:58pm

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon said that Israel's response to the incessant firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip, in which crossings into the area were closed, is "unacceptable."

Yeah, well nevergiveup says up yours!

383 docremulac  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:14:08pm

M - I - C...
See ya on the ash heap of history islamofascist thugs...

K - E - Y...
Why? Because America's gonna put you there...

M - O - U- S - E

384 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:14:13pm
385 tfc3rid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:15:03pm

re: #370 ploome hineni

Hannity isn;t intelligent enough

he is a recording

That's exactly what he is showing in his summary of the interview... Cuomo did a decent job...

386 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:15:12pm

Iran's Great Leader said it best:

"Allah did not create man so that he could have fun. The aim of creation was for mankind to be put to the test through hardship and prayer. An Islamic regime must be serious in every field. There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious." -- Ayatollah Khomeini

Every other religion I know of preaches joy of some kind. Simcha Torah, the joy of the Lord, Dionysus and his wine, the shaman's trance, the Beatific Vision, Nirvana, redemption, the Oceanic Feeling, even Nietzsche's Zarathustra - all full of joy in life or the hereafter.

Islam alone makes its adherents gloomy and full of fear. There is no guarantee of any kind of salvation from Allah. Mahomet himself said he didn't know what Allah would do with him when he died.

Sadness and fear lead to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to violence.

Violence leads to terror.

Terror leads to recognition.

We recognize you, Moslems, and your religion for what you are and what it is. And one of our reactions is laughter. There will be more cartoons to come. Maybe one day even Disney will get wise and bring out a feature like, say, "Goofy and the Imam".

Set your emotions to maximum seethe level and stay there. Maybe you'll burst with indignation and save us all a lot of trouble.

387 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:15:18pm

re: #364 MandyManners

Yep.

"Look at those suckers on dry land with their 'laws' & 'ethics.' They'll never know the simple joys of a monkey knife fight."
/Homer Simpson

388 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:15:27pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

If the purpose is to kill innocent civilians through guerrilla tactics then that is terrorism.

If the near targeting of innocent civilians is "terrorism" then we were some major big time terrorists in WW2.

Ah, but they were not "innocent". They were factory workers and otherwise giving support to the war economy of their respective nations. In that sense, they were considered to be legitimate military targets.

389 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:15:31pm

re: #380 Erik The Red

ehhh howzit china? Laka bru!

390 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:15:42pm

re: #331 WrathofG-d

Sure there is always going to be unintended circumstances, and so maybe that it what it comes down to: Intent.

If say, the Terrorists had called and stated that they were going to blow up the wtc at this time, etc., and people decided not to leave...would you consider that the same as what happened on 9/11?

I wouldn't

Wrath, I'd sure consider it in the same dirty ballpark of intentionality. I do recall there was some fallout w/in Al Quaeda over this issue. Some of the thugs thought it was unfair that the infidels were not given fair notice (issued an invitation to revert to Islam before being murdered). Bin Ladin didn't have any such 'scruples'.

If you are asking if there is ever a time and place to destroy property in the name of freedom, I'd have to say yes, there is. (Boston Tea Party, for instance). Since Ayers intention was not ever towards freedom (any more than Bin Ladin's intent), that's where I'd draw the line. Blowing stuff up in order to impose totalitarian rule is out. In fact, doing anything to impose totalitarianism is out.

391 Crusty  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:16:07pm

Saudi clerics like to have sex with Mickey Mouse's friend.

In other words, they're all fuckin' Goofy!

392 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:16:11pm

re: #371 Cattt

And I have all next week off.

/kicks paws in air and laughs. :D


Well we should issue a fatwa on your vacation..
/

393 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:16:21pm

re: #384 Iron Fist

if you can see the Black Helicopters, it is already too late for you.

Have you notice that cattle mutilations have gone up since the election? Coincidence, I think not.//

394 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:16:31pm

re: #384 Iron Fist

if you can see the Black Helicopters, it is already too late for you.

Those who deny the existence of Black Helicopters may in fact be Black Helicopters themselves.

395 jcm  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:16:44pm

re: #379 subsailor68

Nope, not that I recall. But there was a time when some moron left one of those official Navy coffee cups in the sail. Started bangin' around at just about the worst possible time.

;-)

Up at Bangor across the Hood Canal is a sound range in Dabob Bay, the Ohio's take a run down the range before heading out. it picks up bad bearings, unsecured gear and the location in the boat.

396 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:16:56pm
397 Erik The Red  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:17:10pm

re: #389 WrathofG-d

ehhh howzit china? Laka bru!

Not to bad spelling needs some work but i understand Bru Lekker

398 jcm  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:17:21pm

re: #384 Iron Fist

if you can see the Black Helicopters, it is already too late for you.

They not black on the inside, still just Army green...

399 gop_patriot  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:17:24pm

re: #360 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

No. But he outwitted my friend.

So that's how you got your nickname, is it?

LOL

400 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:17:40pm
401 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:17:51pm

re: #379 subsailor68

Nope, not that I recall. But there was a time when some moron left one of those official Navy coffee cups in the sail. Started bangin' around at just about the worst possible time.

;-)

whoops..major sound short!

402 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:17:57pm

re: #388 calcajun

ugh. You guys are turning me into a moonbat here. *sigh*

Well by that definition all the people in the Twin Towers were too, as they were fueling the economy of the evil American war machine.

Or if you prefer "Little Eichmans" (I think what you stated before was exactly Ward Churchill's argument on behalf of Osama Bin Laden against those in the Twin Towers.)

403 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:18:11pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

If the near targeting of innocent civilians is "terrorism" then we were some major big time terrorists in WW2.

No.

We never targeted civilians. We targeted other things knowing and accepting that civilians would be around. For example a bridge with civilian houses all around. A city with wartime importance. Factories full of civilians. Military columns going down roads surrounded by civilian refugees.

404 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:19:01pm

re: #391 Crusty

Saudi clerics like to have sex with Mickey Mouse's friend.

In other words, they're all fuckin' Goofy!

Poor Goofy. I'm calling the humane society, pronto.

405 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:19:34pm

OT:
The last gasp of OPEC. They're desperate. They are going to suggest massive cuts in oil production to keep prices above $50.

If that fails, OPEC may be toast.

406 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:20:06pm

Adjust your Friday meds, Wrath.

407 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:20:13pm

re: #402 WrathofG-d

They were not engaged directly in war-related production. No state of war existed. Those who actually perpetrated the crime -- as opposed to those who later justified it -- simply defined those in the building as legitimate targets based on their own definition.

408 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:20:24pm

re: #395 jcm

Up at Bangor across the Hood Canal is a sound range in Dabob Bay, the Ohio's take a run down the range before heading out. it picks up bad bearings, unsecured gear and the location in the boat.

To give ya an idea of how old I am, when we went to Bangor for sound trials, there was just one old wooden pier. That was all.

But, great times in Bremerton, and of course Seattle, back then.

409 razorbacker  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:20:28pm

'Cause somebody has to say it...

No one wants to be the last soldier to die in a failed war to save Mickey Mouse.

410 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:20:39pm

re: #403 Silhouette

No.

We never targeted civilians. We targeted other things knowing and accepting that civilians would be around. For example a bridge with civilian houses all around. A city with wartime importance. Factories full of civilians. Military columns going down roads surrounded by civilian refugees.

Not to mention that the laws of war recognize that there is a difference between a uniformed serviceman acting under orders of his government (war) & a civilian taking matters into his own hands (terrorism).

411 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:20:43pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

If the purpose is to kill innocent civilians through guerrilla tactics then that is terrorism.

If the near targeting of innocent civilians is "terrorism" then we were some major big time terrorists in WW2.

I think your comment is offensive to the veterans, and the memory, of the USAAF and the RAF.

412 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:21:09pm

re: #403 Silhouette

No.

We never targeted civilians. We targeted other things knowing and accepting that civilians would be around. For example a bridge with civilian houses all around. A city with wartime importance. Factories full of civilians. Military columns going down roads surrounded by civilian refugees.

Didn't we bomb the hell out of Berlin? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand.

413 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:21:19pm

re: #390 Daisy

Overall, if you are looking to label Ayers something horrible, and which he deserves, I use the term TRAITOR!

There are no arguments against that I am sure (none reasonable at least)

If he was a "terrorist" or not is debatable if he didn't intend to kill people. This I believe is a lie however, as he has on numerous occasions in his writings stated that killing Americans was exactly his goal.

Without a doubt however, Ayers & Co. were TREASONISTS!TM

414 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:22:06pm

re: #401 HoosierHoops

whoops..major sound short!

Yep. And I was a sonar tech.

415 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:22:36pm

Regarding the U-2. It's Air Force week.

[Link: www.pasadenastarnews.com...]

416 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:22:39pm

re: #412 midwestgak

Didn't we bomb the hell out of Berlin? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand.

I said "A city of wartime importance."

417 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:22:49pm

re: #413 WrathofG-d

So are you trying to carve out a set of violent acts that would be described as something short of terrorism because they didn't kill people but did destroy property?

418 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:23:13pm

re: #361 WrathofG-d

"Terrorism" is NOT the definition of war! Don't be ridiculous. Been reading too many Moonbats? (Here's a big surprise -- if you are in a state of actual war -- and you see "the enemy" -- the whole intent is not "kill" -- it's to disable or paralyze the enemy.) Let's not conflate things here, please.

419 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:23:43pm

re: #408 subsailor68

To give ya an idea of how old I am, when we went to Bangor for sound trials, there was just one old wooden pier. That was all.

But, great times in Bremerton, and of course Seattle, back then.

let's not forget Mare Island..The first Navy base on the west coast.

420 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:23:46pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

If the purpose is to kill innocent civilians through guerrilla tactics then that is terrorism.

If the near targeting of innocent civilians is "terrorism" then we were some major big time terrorists in WW2.

There is a HUGE difference between wearing a uniform and acting at the direction of the state - even that has 'rules' - and hiding behind the cloak of being a civilian.

421 jcm  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:24:14pm

re: #403 Silhouette

No.

We never targeted civilians. We targeted other things knowing and accepting that civilians would be around. For example a bridge with civilian houses all around. A city with wartime importance. Factories full of civilians. Military columns going down roads surrounded by civilian refugees.

Dresden? Toyko? We determined in the case of Germany and Japan that the entire population was part of the enemies war effort. Working in factories, in general supportive of the enemies war effort.

Total War, against an entire country and it's population.

422 midwestgak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:24:26pm

re: #415 Pvt Bin Jammin

Regarding the U-2. It's Air Force week.

[Link: www.pasadenastarnews.com...]

Excellent job. Now we won't be wondering all weekend. Updinged ya.

423 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:24:40pm

re: #419 HoosierHoops

let's not forget Mare Island..The first Navy base on the west coast.

I lived in Vallejo for two years while our boat was being build at Mare Island. I have a soft spot in my heart for the old shipyard, which I understand is now a museum.

424 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:25:10pm

re: #415 Pvt Bin Jammin

Regarding the U-2. It's Air Force week.

[Link: www.pasadenastarnews.com...]

What is it, like 12:30 in California? I'm surprised the Air Force is up by now.
/I kid, I kid

425 nyc redneck  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:25:14pm

this joker is now going on the record to say, NO, he did not want mickey mouse dead. LOL
(a grown man clarifying a fatwa on a cartoon character)
unbelievable.
and we deal w/ these s.o.b's like we're dealing w/ human beings capable of rational thought.
that is our first problem in confronting the subject of islam.

426 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:25:21pm

re: #403 Silhouette

Ok, that is just something we are going to have to disagree about. Dropping a nuclear bomb on a town with some military value as a port is not much better different as far as I'm concerned then attacking the WTC which has major economic value.

427 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:25:51pm

re: #406 Ben Hur

Waiting till sundown.

428 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:26:10pm

re: #422 midwestgak

Excellent job. Now we won't be wondering all weekend. Updinged ya.

Sounds like it would be fun to go down for the celebration.

Very weird that they didn't tell some of the police agencies, however.

429 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:26:12pm

re: #421 jcm

Dresden? Toyko?

Again, I said, "A city with wartime importance.

There was enough wartime production and planning going on in these cities to justify bombing.

430 jcm  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:26:34pm

re: #408 subsailor68

To give ya an idea of how old I am, when we went to Bangor for sound trials, there was just one old wooden pier. That was all.

But, great times in Bremerton, and of course Seattle, back then.

Now that have the big enclosed dock, big enough for an Ohio, close the doors behind it. High enough to lift a Trident out of the tube.

Few years back, they banged a Trident against something, the Base Commanders, the Officer in charge of the special weapons and several others got relived.

431 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:26:36pm

re: #250 Pvt Bin Jammin

What the heck was that all about? I didn't see it but my hubby did. I have the police scanner on for Pasadena and they are getting multiple reports of two military jets and a U-2. The cops don't know what's going on either.

Maybe one of the aliens is making a break from Area 51.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the remaining U2s in museums, and thoroughly accounted for? It's not like there ever were a great many of them, anyway.

432 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:27:27pm

re: #424 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

LOL I'll second that on behalf of my USMC family.

433 The Hoopster  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:27:49pm

re: #426 WrathofG-d

Ok, that is just something we are going to have to disagree about. Dropping a nuclear bomb on a town with some military value as a port is not much better different as far as I'm concerned then attacking the WTC which has major economic value.

So after Pearl Harbor we committed terrorist acts of war?
I'm not following you..

434 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:28:18pm

re: #430 jcm

Now that have the big enclosed dock, big enough for an Ohio, close the doors behind it. High enough to lift a Trident out of the tube.

Few years back, they banged a Trident against something, the Base Commanders, the Officer in charge of the special weapons and several others got relived.

I've heard the base is huge now (compared to then). We'd get off the boat at the old wooden pier, hop in those old gray Navy trucks, and it would be nothing but wilderness all the way to the gate. It'd be fun to see how it's changed.

435 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:28:25pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

If the purpose is to kill innocent civilians through guerrilla tactics then that is terrorism.

If the near targeting of innocent civilians is "terrorism" then we were some major big time terrorists in WW2.

The bombing of Rotterdam was terrorism. The bombing of Coventry was terrorism, as was the London blitz. Also the Battan Death March and the treatment of allied prisoners after the fall of Singapore and the Dutch East Indies. The Axis set the rules. We played the game by their rules. We played the game a little better.

436 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:28:26pm
437 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:28:42pm

re: #431 Alberta Oil Peon

Maybe one of the aliens is making a break from Area 51.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the remaining U2s in museums, and thoroughly accounted for? It's not like there ever were a great many of them, anyway.

They're still in service, with no plans to retire them. It's a very useful airplane.

438 Daisy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:28:53pm

re: #413 WrathofG-d

Overall, if you are looking to label Ayers something horrible, and which he deserves, I use the term TRAITOR!

There are no arguments against that I am sure (none reasonable at least)

If he was a "terrorist" or not is debatable if he didn't intend to kill people. This I believe is a lie however, as he has on numerous occasions in his writings stated that killing Americans was exactly his goal.

Without a doubt however, Ayers & Co. were TREASONISTS!TM

Without a doubt. I'd also call him a murderer (with intent to become a mass murderer) And he's a Communist. Heck, I've already called him a Psychopath .. the only thing I haven't called him his a spoiled brat, which is also is. The 'terrorist' label does have some inherent difficulties.

I imagine your family must have very interesting discussions around the dinner table. Someone clearly taught you that thinking was a good activity to engage in!

439 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:29:29pm

re: #403 Silhouette

No.

We never targeted civilians. We targeted other things knowing and accepting that civilians would be around. For example a bridge with civilian houses all around. A city with wartime importance. Factories full of civilians. Military columns going down roads surrounded by civilian refugees.

The possible exception - IMO - was Dresden. I've hears some convincing arguments that it was sheer retribution for the London bombings. Not saying myself one way or the other - just that I'm not sure of that one. But even there an inquiry conducted at the behest of U.S. Army Chief of Staff, General George C. Marshall, stated the raid was justified by the available intelligence to avoid its use as a regrouping point.

440 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:29:45pm

re: #431 Alberta Oil Peon

I thought they were in mothballs too.

See my #415. The news article said it "appeared" to be a U-2 but maybe it was something similar looking.

441 yochanan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:30:04pm

re: #416 Silhouette

not enough my only regret about dropping the atom bomb berlin did not get one

442 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:30:04pm

re: #436 Iron Fist

Oh, no! Why he's suggesting that Americans in WWII were terrorists, of course.

443 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:30:44pm

re: #417 joncelli

re: #418 J.S.

re: #420 DeafDog

Ok, you want my "brass tax"? I don't think we should be fighting a war on "terrorism". I think that it is stupid to target an method of warfare, and not the basic fact that they attacked us, and threaten our security.

We would be best served fighting against those who hold a certain idiology, not the manner in which they attack us. Are we trying to say that there IS a good way to attack our Country, but "Terrorism" just isn't it?

Sure attacking military personnel is morally better than attacking innocent civilians, but is this really what we want to concentrate on?

Attacking civilians in war is standard practice. Ever since we left "organized" battlefield warfare this has been the case. The Allies bombed the ___ out of Europe, and Germany.

I don't blame Terrorists for being Terrorists, I just do what I must to protect myself, my country, and my family. It is Islamic Fascist/Imperialism that I fear...not their method.

I'm simple like that.

444 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:31:44pm

re: #426 WrathofG-d

Ok, that is just something we are going to have to disagree about. Dropping a nuclear bomb on a town with some military value as a port is not much better different as far as I'm concerned then attacking the WTC which has major economic value.

We had formally declared war against the country. We are a recognized state, a free state for that matter with checks and balances on military action, and a military controlled by the people. So not a rogue band of jihadists with an axe to grind.

Not to mention ours was an act carried out to end a war. Which it did.

And there was more to Hiroshima that a port. Hiroshima was HQ to the Japanese Second Army.

We ARE going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

445 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:32:05pm

re: #177 Charles

No bias at ABC News. None at all.

Campaign Boogeyman William Ayers Talks to ‘GMA’.

"Boogeyman" is a technical journalistic term, of course.

I give some credit to the interviewer. He brought up some good points. He actually brought up the "if John McCain had done it" parallel.

Bill Ayers is a fking hypocrite and an idiot, who, as I said on the first thread, is educated well beyond his intelligence.

446 jcm  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:32:19pm

re: #434 subsailor68

I've heard the base is huge now (compared to then). We'd get off the boat at the old wooden pier, hop in those old gray Navy trucks, and it would be nothing but wilderness all the way to the gate. It'd be fun to see how it's changed.

Being a boomer base with special weapons, it's closed to civies. Across Hood Canal is a Boy Scout camp on Dabob Bay and you can see the docks and the big enclosed dock. Anytime the sound range is in use Navy speed boats come over and chase all the boats off Dabob bay.

Moonbats "blockade" the base entrance anytime they think weapons are being delivered, and on Aug. 6th.

447 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:32:37pm
448 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:32:41pm

re: #433 HoosierHoops

no. my definition of Terrorism is "using guerrilla tactics to purposefully maim, murder, or harm innocent civilians as the intended target".

but overall and more importantly SEE MY 443

449 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:32:47pm

re: #402 WrathofG-d

No, they were not. I never said I agreed with the policy of strategic bombing. That was the rationale behind the policy. The Germans used terror bombing extensively --they bombed Rotterdam after the Dutch had surrendered just to drive home the point that they defeated the Dutch. They bombed and strafed columns of civilian refugees so as to tie up roads and slow the advance of enemy forces. The Soviets did the same to the Germans in 44-45 (payback is a bitch)

The concept of strategic bombing, though, was designed in the 20's and 30's; the bomber will always get through was the motto. It was meant to attack the enemy's war-making potential. However, precision daylight raids proved to be futile due to the lack of adequate long-range fighter support and precision bombing devices (the RAF did not have the Norden bombsight) The RAF switched over to night area bombing with the same thought, Not necessarily to kill civilians but to destroy homes and urban infrastructure so as to create a drain on the German economy.

The sane rationale was true for the USAAF in bombing Japan; destroy the urban infrastrucure, create as many displaced persons as possible and disrupt the war effort as much as possible.

Given the advent of high-tech "smart" weapons, these strategies are no longer viable. Wars are no longer "total" in the sense that the economies of nations are geared completely to fighting a war, hence, urban infrastructure is no longer a target save for interdiction and disruption of CNC networks.

In other words, bombing of population centers during WWII by Allied air forces was not designed to kill the civilians. The the tactics used by today's terrorists are meant to do just that.

450 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:34:43pm

re: #440 Pvt Bin Jammin

I thought they were in mothballs too.

See my #415. The news article said it "appeared" to be a U-2 but maybe it was something similar looking.

They're known by different names now, & do look different than the U-2s of the Cold War, but they're still the same airframes of 50 years ago.

Kelly Johnson's first jet design, the P-80 (which first flew in WWII's closing days) is still in service around the world as the T-33.

451 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:34:58pm

re: #417 joncelli

So are you trying to carve out a set of violent acts that would be described as something short of terrorism because they didn't kill people but did destroy property?

No. Strategic bombing was never designed to kill civilians. The destruction of an enemy's war-making capacity has always been a legitimate target.

452 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:35:05pm

re: #446 jcm

Thanks...you bring back some great old memories.

Gotta run. Time to take the dog for his daily drag. (Doesn't like walks like he used to.)

453 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:36:05pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

If you are going to suggest that the nuclear bombing of Japan was somehow wrong, I will have to disagree with you.

Strenuously.

I will remind you that it was not until the second bomb that Japan was willing to surrender.

And even then we couldn't get them to surrender unconditionally.

454 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:37:52pm

re: #453 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

And even then we couldn't get them to surrender unconditionally.

Remember, part of the rationale for bombing Japan was to get them to surrender as quickly as possible before the Soviets could come in to the war against Japan (they attacked Manchuria on 8/9/45--the same day as we bombed Nagasaki) and make territorial demands.

455 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:37:58pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

no I am not in anyway arguing that it was wrong. Quite the opposite actually. My point is that the broad definition of "Terrorism" given to me by another poster (from the dictionary, or wiki) was too broad, and wrong. (it was basically "a violent act against civilians with the purpose of influencing the acts of a government)

I offered my OWN definition, which can be found above in 448.

My point was that by their definition of "terrorism", every act of War is an act of Terrorism, and that just doesn't make sense to me.

This all started with a conversation of whether or not an act of attacking a building knowing that no one was going to be in it, did or did not make the perpetrator a "Terrorist". I stated that it did not as we understand the term today.

Knowing me, you can probably guess why I hold this view. And why I am not getting into those specifics openly on LGF.

456 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:39:12pm

re: #439 DeafDog

The possible exception - IMO - was Dresden. I've hears some convincing arguments that it was sheer retribution for the London bombings. Not saying myself one way or the other - just that I'm not sure of that one. But even there an inquiry conducted at the behest of U.S. Army Chief of Staff, General George C. Marshall, stated the raid was justified by the available intelligence to avoid its use as a regrouping point.

Which is a great illustration.

There was a chance it wasn't purely military in nature, and we as a free and decent people felt that possibility made the need to conduct an inquiry. Showing that even if we are perfect in execution, our goal was never target civilians just because.

457 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:39:21pm

re: #443 WrathofG-d

I think you're too befuddled to argue with...

458 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:39:35pm
459 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:39:56pm

re: #281 WrathofG-d

I hate to have this discussion as it will ultimately be used against me I am sure, but...

No. I disagree. If you target a building at a time when you know noone is going to be in it, I don't think it is the same as targeting a building when you know people are going to be in it.

Whether or not the building targeted by the mad bombers is occupied is not relevant. The crux of the matter is the intent of the bombers. If their intent is induce political change by frightening people into altering their behavior, it's terrorism.

If the intent is to extort money, or to "punish" an entity for transgressions against the bombers, it is criminal, pure and simple.

If an individual is killed by one of the explosions, that simply raises the stakes in the criminal prosecution of the perpetrators.

Example: during the biker wars a few years ago in Quebec, a 14 year-old boy was killed when a bomb went off in a car that he happened to be walking past. Not an act of terrorism, but the perp did get convicted of murder, IIRC.

460 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:40:38pm

re: #441 yochanan

not enough my only regret about dropping the atom bomb berlin did not get one

We were working as fast as we could.

I've said before on here that I've seen the blueprints for the construction of the enrichment facility. The dates are in the fall of 1944. They went from drawings to boom in 9 months? Wow.

461 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:41:10pm
462 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:41:57pm

re: #459 Alberta Oil Peon

Whether or not the building targeted by the mad bombers is occupied is not relevant. The crux of the matter is the intent of the bombers. If their intent is induce political change by frightening people into altering their behavior, it's terrorism.

And we go in circles.

Although I agree that it comes down to intent, I believe your definition of "terrorism" is so broad that it would/could include practically every act of warfare.

463 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:42:23pm

re: #455 WrathofG-d

no I am not in anyway arguing that it was wrong. Quite the opposite actually. My point is that the broad definition of "Terrorism" given to me by another poster (from the dictionary, or wiki) was too broad, and wrong. (it was basically "a violent act against civilians with the purpose of influencing the acts of a government)

I offered my OWN definition, which can be found above in 448.

My point was that by their definition of "terrorism", every act of War is an act of Terrorism, and that just doesn't make sense to me.

This all started with a conversation of whether or not an act of attacking a building knowing that no one was going to be in it, did or did not make the perpetrator a "Terrorist". I stated that it did not as we understand the term today.

Knowing me, you can probably guess why I hold this view. And why I am not getting into those specifics openly on LGF.

Then the original premise is flawed. If you are going to bomb a building as some form of protest and have no desire to injure anyone, then you have the onus of making sure the building is vacant. Terror is a sudden, unannounced, attack designed to instill fear in the survivors. What the other poster postulated (and what Ayers said in his interview) isn't terrorism--it's a form of protest --if there is no desire to injure and steps are taken to avoid injury. Otherwise--it's terrorism--which exactly what Ayers did, despite what he says now.

464 joncelli  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:42:38pm

re: #443 WrathofG-d

Maybe because it's late on a Friday I'm just not getting your argument. Are you making an argument for targeting all of islam rather than those who use a particular method to attack us?

465 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:43:45pm

re: #461 buzzsawmonkey

I also imagine that if I were to discribe the historical events that helped shape my opinion on this matter...most of those who are disagreeing with me would change their tune.

But that contextual issue is another conversation all together I guess.

466 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:45:51pm

re: #463 calcajun

I think we are agreeing.

I am not defending Ayers. I can't tell you what I think should happen to him, for fear of being banned. Personally, I'm not sure it matter if he was or was not a "terrorist" as he was undoubtedly a TreasonistTM. The guy was a violent traitor! Furthermore, based on his actual writings at the time, there is no doubt that it was his intent to purposefully murder Americans. So, whatever pap he sells today is just that.

467 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:46:43pm

re: #439 DeafDog

The possible exception - IMO - was Dresden. I've hears some convincing arguments that it was sheer retribution for the London bombings. Not saying myself one way or the other - just that I'm not sure of that one. But even there an inquiry conducted at the behest of U.S. Army Chief of Staff, General George C. Marshall, stated the raid was justified by the available intelligence to avoid its use as a regrouping point.

There is a reason why out of all the chief Allied commanders, only Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris does not have any sort of monument or memorial.

468 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:49:32pm

re: #465 WrathofG-d

Oh please. As if we're all too stupid to see what you're getting at. We all know about the King David Hotel. Yeah, yeah. We all know about the targeting of empty buildings in 2002 and the UN claiming it was a disporpionate use of force (which is the typcial immoral idiocy of the UN); and then there's what went on in Lebanon (interesting post by Dershowitz, here, btw.)

469 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:49:37pm

re: #361 WrathofG-d

The Government has a large interest in labeling anything that threatens their complete power as something as evil and illegal as "Terrorism", insofar that under that definition any actual acts against their complete power can be made "evil" and illegal. Furthermore, that definition alone makes all forms of warfare "Terrorism", as that is exactly the definition of War. (using violence to get the Government to do what you want)

I am only giving my definition, and that does not include blowing up pipelines, making verbal threats, or blowing up buildings with when you are sure that no one is in them.

If it is not your intent to purposefully target civilians, through guerrilla tactics, then its not "terrorism" where I am concerned.

Well, you are flat-out wrong.

470 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:50:17pm

re: #439 DeafDog

IIRC Dresden was a major railhead which is militarily important.

471 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:53:38pm

re: #469 Alberta Oil Peon

So...we disagree. That's ok with me.

472 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:53:46pm

re: #462 WrathofG-d

And we go in circles.

Although I agree that it comes down to intent, I believe your definition of "terrorism" is so broad that it would/could include practically every act of warfare.

If the warfare is not being waged lawfully by a legitimate state actor, then it would be terrorism. Victors write the history, after all.

What makes terrorism what it is, is the fact that the violence, wherever directed, is not done under the color of law.

473 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:56:31pm

re: #472 Alberta Oil Peon

Would that then make the U.S. revolution Terrorism?

(I should remind you and others that this entire discussion to me seems to be part of the overall problem, insofar that I don't care if they do terrorism or not. I'm not concerned with the method as much as the desire to attack us)

474 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:58:17pm

ok, off to go do something else. Enjoy the day, and the weekend more.

475 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 12:58:32pm
476 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:02:11pm

re: #473 WrathofG-d

So, how about that Patriot Act, eh? So, let's suppose through surveillance the U.S. government becomes aware that a major terrorist attack is planned against the United States. The terrorists intend to take out buildings, murder as many people as possible, etc, through use of sleeper agents inside the U.S.. But, according to your "logic" -- that planned act is not "terrorism", and hence the feds should sit on their hands, and wait until we've the dead bodies. Right?

477 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:02:50pm

re: #475 ploome hineni

He may not be correct on all matters...

478 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:04:38pm

re: #437 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

They're still in service, with no plans to retire them. It's a very useful airplane.

So I see. I'm glad to be wrong about that, too. The U2 is a very cool airplane.

479 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:05:16pm

Dresden I might add is on the Elbe River and looking just by looking at a map it appears that it was sitting on the flank of the Red Armies drive to Berlin.

480 davinvalkri  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:05:46pm

Once again, these clerics show how absolutely absurd their mad-cap religion can be. What are they going to do, use a giant key* and lots and lots of dip?

*Kingdom Hearts reference

481 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:05:48pm

re: #476 J.S.

Wow you really don't understand my point at all.

I really must go but let's just try to see if you can at least understand me, if not agree.

In your scenario, the Islamists would intend to use guerrilla tactics to purposefully murder civilians. Therefore, it would actually fit exactly into my definition of Terrorism.

But more importantly, it would fit into my larger, and more important point about individuals using any tactics and methods to do harm to the United States (terrorism or not).

Thus, yes the Government would have a duty to do everything they could to stop it from occurring.

482 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:06:02pm
483 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:06:56pm

pimf

484 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:07:44pm

re: #393 calcajun

Have you notice that cattle mutilations have gone up since the election? Coincidence, I think not.//

And... they all take place in crop circles. I hear alien abductions and body probes are up too. ;-)>

485 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:08:20pm
486 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:08:59pm

re: #455 WrathofG-d

no I am not in anyway arguing that it was wrong. Quite the opposite actually. My point is that the broad definition of "Terrorism" given to me by another poster (from the dictionary, or wiki) was too broad, and wrong. (it was basically "a violent act against civilians with the purpose of influencing the acts of a government)

I offered my OWN definition, which can be found above in 448.

My point was that by their definition of "terrorism", every act of War is an act of Terrorism, and that just doesn't make sense to me.

This all started with a conversation of whether or not an act of attacking a building knowing that no one was going to be in it, did or did not make the perpetrator a "Terrorist". I stated that it did not as we understand the term today.

Knowing me, you can probably guess why I hold this view. And why I am not getting into those specifics openly on LGF.

It's a dead thread now, but I got distracted by work...I was said poster who provided a defintion from dictionary dot com.

Two points -
1. The state is granted a monopoly on the force. A state, therefore, is by its own existience, not a terrorist. It's not clear to me whether a state can commit terrorism, even though a state can terrorize its citizentry. A state acting war - and actors on behalf of a state - can commit war crimes. But it's not the same as terrorism, IMO.

2. Regarding individuals, you seem to be arguing over degrees of terrorism. A terrorist who kills is different than a terrorist who destroys. That's true, but they are both terrists.

487 Elcid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:09:14pm

Do these insects know how God Damn stupid they sound and are?

488 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:09:37pm
489 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:10:04pm

re: #484 Outrider

And... they all take place in crop circles. I hear alien abductions and body probes are up too. ;-)>

I was wondering why I lost two hours of time last night, and why my but hurts, and why I'm humming show tunes... Oh dear Lord, NO!///

490 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:10:08pm

re: #488 ploome hineni

I don't think so. But we can agree to disagree. You might not agree with me but I believe I have been quite clear.

491 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:10:50pm

re: #486 DeafDog

The state is granted a monopoly on the force.

1. Our Founding Fathers would disagree.
2. That is one of the most frightening statements I have heard in a long time. Guess we no longer need the 2nd Amendment.

492 Outrider  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:11:45pm

re: #426 WrathofG-d

Ok, that is just something we are going to have to disagree about. Dropping a nuclear bomb on a town with some military value as a port is not much better different as far as I'm concerned then attacking the WTC which has major economic value.

except we were engaged in a declared state of war with a dedicated enemy that had initiated hostilities. Not a surprise raid by civilians (terrorists).

493 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:13:05pm

re: #481 WrathofG-d

Well I must not be understanding your definition of terrorism. So the Islamists (in the hypothetical situation) you'd call "terrorists" (?), and prosecute them for "conspiracy to commit terrorist acts" (even though they only planned to commit an act -- never actually carried it out) -- but William Ayers who only planned to do any number of terrorist acts, is not, using your definition (?), Ayers is not a terrorist...ookkay..What am I missing here?

494 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:13:16pm

War has to start somewhere...and either way it only comes down to tactic. We should concentrate on the desire to do harm to our country, not the specific tactic they use.

495 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:13:17pm

re: #470 bulwrk

IIRC Dresden was a major railhead which is militarily important.

True, but on the Western Front the Allies were slicing through the Germans at that point like a hot knife through butter. The Dresden bombings were overkill to say the least.

It's definitly a case where the intellegence was not that great and we acted on the best intellegence available - a little like Iraq - but it was not the Allies most compassionate move.

War is hell.

496 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:15:52pm
497 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:16:12pm

re: #491 WrathofG-d

1. Our Founding Fathers would disagree.
2. That is one of the most frightening statements I have heard in a long time. Guess we no longer need the 2nd Amendment.

1. No, they would not.
2. It is fact and it is, in fact, why we need the second amendment.

498 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:17:43pm
499 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:17:45pm

re: #493 J.S.

ok 1. Ayers attacked only military targets IIRC. .
2. Ayers is a Traitor.
3. However if Ayer's intent was to do purposeful harm to civilians by using guerrilla tactics then he would be a Terrorist.
4. My only point was that the definition given to me above for Terrorism (using violence to affect the decisions of a Government) was too broad, insofar that it would include ALL acts of war.

Again, with all this being said, I think concentrating on the manner of attack, and not simply the desire and steps taken toward that desire, is nothing more than a unnecessary diversion.

500 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:19:02pm

re: #496 ploome hineni

But then it comes down to definition.

Arguments above stated that Japanese civilians were not "civilians" because they fueled the economy of the Japanese war machine.

Well, couldn't that same argument be made for the civilians in the WTC?

501 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:19:44pm

re: #494 WrathofG-d

War has to start somewhere...and either way it only comes down to tactic. We should concentrate on the desire to do harm to our country, not the specific tactic they use.

Not necessarily. There are always stratagem designed by the military for various contingencies. War games are run for many models for various anticipated enemies. The reason we toppled the Taliban in a month was not because we were lucky, but because the war game had been played many times before by the US war plannners. Yes, there are guys who lay awake at night thinking up this stuff.

The strategy of al Qeda and the Taliban for 9/11 was to kill and destroy as much of the US financial and military infrastructure in one fell swoop as a precursor to a larger strike--which never materialized as their strike failed to be completed.

502 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:20:07pm

re: #494 WrathofG-d

War has to start somewhere...and either way it only comes down to tactic. We should concentrate on the desire to do harm to our country, not the specific tactic they use.

Yes. I can agree with there. The Global War on Terrorism should be called The Global War on Islamic Extremists, or something like that. But that name is not PC, and so politicians shy away from it.

503 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:20:26pm

re: #497 DeafDog

1. No, they would not.
2. It is fact and it is, in fact, why we need the second amendment.

Which I am going to go and exercise this weekend! Off to my friendly shooting range!

504 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:20:33pm

re: #494 WrathofG-d

I don't think you understand modern warfare...Repeat after me: The goal of Modern warfare is not to wipe your enemy off the face of the earth -- modern warfare is about disabling/paralyzing the enemy...on a battlefield you don't shoot to kill -- you shoot to disable (you send your enemy to a hospital -- that takes up a lot of manpower, and is, in terms of tactics, a far "better" outcome than outright killing).

505 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:22:11pm
506 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:22:13pm

re: #497 DeafDog

Why do we need the 2nd Amendment except to defend us from the Government? Or as an alternative to defend ourselves from foreign threats if the Government maintains all monopoly on force.

If the "Government has a monopoly on force" then that leaves us at the will of the Government. I am sure that our Founding Fathers, people directly fighting their own Government with force, and thereafter creating a country out of their fear of a large centralized Government (and who wrote the Declaration of Independence) would not agree with your statement.

507 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:22:48pm

You wrote:
"Ok, you want my "brass tax"? I don't think we should be fighting a war on "terrorism". I think that it is stupid to target an method of warfare, and not the basic fact that they attacked us, and threaten our security."

I agree with that. Bush should have declared a war against Al Qaeda and all their fellow-travelers.

"We would be best served fighting against those who hold a certain idiology, not the manner in which they attack us. Are we trying to say that there IS a good way to attack our Country, but "Terrorism" just isn't it?"

See above.

"Sure attacking military personnel is morally better than attacking innocent civilians, but is this really what we want to concentrate on?"

Attacking military personnel in circumstances other than open warfare is also terrorism.

"Attacking civilians in war is standard practice. Ever since we left "organized" battlefield warfare this has been the case. The Allies bombed the ___ out of Europe, and Germany."

As others have pointed out, civilians were not singled out to be attacked, but if they happened to occupy sites that were legitimate military targets, they were fair game. Rounding up and killing civilians deliberately is a war crime (Lidice, anyone?), but if they are killed during aerial bombardment of a factory complex, it is collateral damage. This is a matter of law. Laws don't always have to make sense.

"I don't blame Terrorists for being Terrorists, I just do what I must to protect myself, my country, and my family. It is Islamic Fascist/Imperialism that I fear...not their method."

Well, the terrorists aren't doing what they do to protect themselves, their family, or their country. They are doing what they do in order to impose their twisted worldview upon those of us, like you and I, who don't subscribe to it. That was the motive behind the bombings carried out by the Weather Underground, led by William Ayers. He is a terrorist because of the methods he employed in pursuit of his political goals. He may no longer be an active terrorist, but his goals have not substantially changed, and he is an unrepentant terrorist.

"I'm simple like that."

Won't touch that one.

508 So?  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:23:12pm

This is a case for Quicks Draw McGraw.

509 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:24:04pm

re: #501 calcajun

Ok you are just talking tangents here. I wasn't discussing what the military should be prepared for. I was discussing what the Politicians should concern themselves with.

This whole "we are against Terrorism" is stupid. It states that it is a tactic that we are against and not the overall idea of anyone attacking us. Are there acceptable manners of attacking the U.S. I don't know about that we'd be ok with? No. And there shouldn't be.

510 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:24:44pm

re: #504 J.S.

I don't think you understand modern warfare...Repeat after me: The goal of Modern warfare is not to wipe your enemy off the face of the earth -- modern warfare is about disabling/paralyzing the enemy...on a battlefield you don't shoot to kill -- you shoot to disable (you send your enemy to a hospital -- that takes up a lot of manpower, and is, in terms of tactics, a far "better" outcome than outright killing).

That's what we try to do. Other, less sophisticated folks may still opt for the scorched earth policies of General Sherman and bring the war to civilian non combatants.

511 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:24:47pm
512 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:25:05pm

re: #499 WrathofG-d

1) William Ayers firebombed the home of a judge. that's not a military target.

513 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:25:34pm

re: #504 J.S.

Ok i'm not going to run around chasing every tangent you wish to bring up. I don't have the time.

We will just have to disagree.

514 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:28:29pm

re: #513 WrathofG-d

So, I call William Ayers a terrorist. And you won't call him a terrorist. Ooookay...Fine.

515 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:28:30pm

So when Obama gets his version of tonton macoutes up and running how soon do you suppose food shortages will arise?

516 bulwrk  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:29:35pm

re: #495 DeafDog

Dresden was bombed in Feb 1945, the lines along the western front were back to where they were in Dec 1944 before the Battle of the Bulge. It was not at all clear whether the German Army would stand and fight or collapse.

517 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:29:40pm

re: #511 ploome hineni

No I am no confused. Yes if the Phakestinians think it is helpful to attack those cities then that is what they will do. Is it ok, in the sense of acceptable, and Israel should not respond? No. Of course not. Each country has a duty to protect her citizens. But I do not differentiate between methods of attack, or place of attack. It is better to attack a military target but wasting our time trying to get our enemy to attack the targets we find acceptable is a bit ridiculous. What cities would be ok? Are some ok but others are not? No they are ALL wrong. I guess that is really my point. As an American, attacking ANY city in the United States is wrong, in addition attacking any city of our ally is also wrong. However, I am not going to differentiate and complain that one method of attacking is the problem when it is the attacking at all that is the problem.

Thus, it doesn't matter to me if the method is by aerial bombing, or homicide vest. Both are wrong, and should be dealt with.

518 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:30:41pm

re: #506 WrathofG-d

Why do we need the 2nd Amendment except to defend us from the Government? Or as an alternative to defend ourselves from foreign threats if the Government maintains all monopoly on force.

If the "Government has a monopoly on force" then that leaves us at the will of the Government. I am sure that our Founding Fathers, people directly fighting their own Government with force, and thereafter creating a country out of their fear of a large centralized Government (and who wrote the Declaration of Independence) would not agree with your statement.

Maybe I was missing a word. Government has a monopoly on the use of 'legitimate' force. You can't physically force me to do anything. I can't physically force you to do anything. If you or I break a rule - the offended party can only turn to the govt. to make things right. The government is the only one with that legitmate power.

Why do we need the second amendment? Because the government can be taken over by bad sorts...that's why the founding fathers left it in there. In those cases, the individuals will rebel. The founding fathers thought thismight happen, so they build in this safeguard.

519 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:31:02pm

re: #473 WrathofG-d

Would that then make the U.S. revolution Terrorism?

(I should remind you and others that this entire discussion to me seems to be part of the overall problem, insofar that I don't care if they do terrorism or not. I'm not concerned with the method as much as the desire to attack us)

It would have been written up that way in the history books if the Revolution had been unsuccessful, wouldn't it?

520 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:31:53pm

re: #514 J.S.

Ok seriously, you're an idiot. I don't like to call names but the complete stupidity of your statements shows that you are not even reading what I write. I can only say that he is a Terrorist 6+ times before I have to expect you to actually understand it. The fact that you still think I do not think he is just shows that you are too ignorant to even get my point, or just too emotional to see it.

I highly suggest that instead of shooting off another mindless post in response to the fact that I have just hurt your ego, that you instead go back and read what I have written throughout this entire thread on this subject.

521 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:33:10pm

re: #519 Alberta Oil Peon

yes. I wholeheartedly believe that history is written by the winner. It seems that on this we can agree.

522 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:36:34pm
523 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:38:05pm

re: #516 bulwrk

Dresden was bombed in Feb 1945, the lines along the western front were back to where they were in Dec 1944 before the Battle of the Bulge. It was not at all clear whether the German Army would stand and fight or collapse.

I'll have to reread my WWII history.

Regardless, the Allies bombed the shit out of that city. I'm proud of America's victory in WWII and that we investigated whether the Dresden Bombing was a necessary and correct tactic afterwards. I'll accept the judgement of the investigators that the Dresden bombing was justifiable based on the intellegence of the time, but I'll maintain my scepticism.

524 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:39:15pm
525 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:42:34pm

re: #509 WrathofG-d

Ok you are just talking tangents here. I wasn't discussing what the military should be prepared for. I was discussing what the Politicians should concern themselves with.

This whole "we are against Terrorism" is stupid. It states that it is a tactic that we are against and not the overall idea of anyone attacking us. Are there acceptable manners of attacking the U.S. I don't know about that we'd be ok with? No. And there shouldn't be.

No. I think we are at cross purposes here. It's the role of the military to also anticipate likely methods which we can be attacked here and abroad.

Your posit as to the inane position of a "war" on terror is not correct. We are not at war against a tactic but against groups--diffuse groups without allegiance to a country or region--who use chiefly of method of warfare against non-combatants for the purpose of instilling intimidation and fear in order to achieve a political end.

Now, can we defend against every venue of attack? No. he who defends everything hold nothing. They will get through the defenses at some point. We as a people have to realize that and be prepared for it--if some one wants to strike us, they will. What we have to do is be prepared to retaliate with such force against that group or the people who support that group that they can never threaten the US again.

This is why it is not referred to as "oblique" warfare.

526 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:43:35pm

ok i'm going to go so something more productive but before I leave I'll try to tie up some loose ends.

If Bill Ayers purposefully intended to maim, murder, or harm civilians by using guerrilla tactics, and actually took steps towards those means, or actively encouraged others to do so, with the knowledge, and or intent that they would actually follow through, then he should be considered a terrorist.

Insofar that his writings at the time give evidence to the fact that the aforementioned were his intent, he should be considered a Terrorist.

However, if in some dream world what he is stating now, that he never intended to attack actual people, but only buildings, were true, then I am not convinced that that would make him a Terrorist.

I reject the definition of Terrorism that states that it is simply "the use of violence to get a government to do something". This to me is too broad and would include all acts of war.

I think that all acts of violence made with the intent to be against our Government, and that of our allies is wrong. I believe that concentrating on the method of that violence is an unnecessary distraction and we would be better served as a policy of the Politicians to concentrate instead on the pure act of desiring to commit acts of violence on our Country, and the steps taken by those actors to do so, instead of the specific methods they choose. I don't care if they are committing harm against my Country by homicide belt, use of civilian aircraft, tanks, or aerial bombings as all are wrong, harmful, and should be dealt with by most manners available to the public, and Government.

I reject the idea that the Government has the monopoly on all force, as I believe that this concept will leave the populace to the whims of the Government. The power of Government comes from the people, and not vice versa. In order to ensure that there is not a tyranny of the Government, it is incumbent upon the citizenry to use force of their own when necessary. Just as is intended in the U.S. Declaration of Independence. I will not hand over the protection of my friends, and family to the Government.

527 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:44:37pm
528 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:46:18pm

re: #524 ploome hineni

based on what?

something a little birdie told you?

Hah! Yeah, a birdie.

I like the way you take one comment out of context. Do you work for the Associated Press?

Seriously - My scepticism is based on the degree of bombing. Firebombing the city for days sure smells of overkill to me. War crime? No. Overzelous? Yes. Worthy of sorrow? Yes.

529 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:49:17pm
530 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:49:42pm

re: #523 DeafDog

I'll have to reread my WWII history.

Regardless, the Allies bombed the shit out of that city. I'm proud of America's victory in WWII and that we investigated whether the Dresden Bombing was a necessary and correct tactic afterwards. I'll accept the judgement of the investigators that the Dresden bombing was justifiable based on the intellegence of the time, but I'll maintain my scepticism.

I think it's pretty well understood that Dresden was payback for the bombing of Coventry, a cathedral city with little strategic importance. But it's also understood that there was sufficient strategic value to Dresden to make it a legitimate target.

Again, the victors write the histories.

531 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:50:49pm

re: #520 WrathofG-d

You have been writing that Ayers is a "treasonist" as opposed to being called a "terrorist." Then you further used some definition to conflate "terrorism" with "warfare," thoroughly confusing both terms. I'm now left to wonder if you remember what you've written previously, as in 30 minutes earlier.

But, oh well. As I noted earlier, you're too befuddled to argue with. I shouldn't have bothered.

532 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:51:27pm

re: #526 WrathofG-d

Theodore Kaczynski? Is that you?

533 hellosnackbar  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:51:51pm

This great scholar of Islam betrays the glaring fact that he's a cartoon figure of fun himself.
Apologies to Mickey fans.

534 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:51:57pm
535 DeafDog  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:52:08pm

re: #529 ploome hineni

Why do you make me repeat?

My scepticism is based on the degree of bombing. Firebombing the city for days sure smells of overkill to me. War crime? No. Overzelous? Yes. Worthy of sorrow? Yes.

536 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:54:08pm
537 the_flying_pig  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:54:27pm

I was informed few months ago that MEMRI twisted the translation of Arabic-speaking or Farsi-speaking videos to suit MEMRI's agenda of making the Islamists look bad in the eyes of the world. I know for a fact that there are Jewish translators within MEMRI who are familiar with Arabic and Farsi languages.

I wonder if there are non-Jewish translators who know Arabic and Farsi languages and can translate these videos exactly as the MEMRI translators had to ensure there's no ambiguity in translating the languages in a non-stereotypical way? Just to keep MEMRI honest in translating these videos for non-Arabic/Farsi-speaking viewers as exactly as these Islamists in these videos said.

538 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:54:36pm
539 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:55:21pm
540 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:55:54pm
541 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:58:59pm

re: #535 DeafDog

Why do you make me repeat?

My scepticism is based on the degree of bombing. Firebombing the city for days sure smells of overkill to me. War crime? No. Overzelous? Yes. Worthy of sorrow? Yes.

It was one night raid that caused most of the fires. The day raids dropped HE--but were pretty badly scattered.

542 WrathofG-d  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 1:59:57pm

re: #537 the_flying_pig

Right. Can't trust those Jews now can you. We all know they are in the tank for Israel anyway.

/I think you just might be setting yourself up to upset more people on this thread than I have.

ok seriously, just wanted to swat a Jew hater. I'm out.

543 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:01:44pm

re: #536 calcajun

PIMF---Really.

This from moving too fast. Sorry.

Someone please delete this and I'll clean it up.

Thanks

544 welshgirl  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:03:58pm

#536

I see you can use tabs.

545 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:06:58pm
546 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:11:31pm
547 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:16:22pm

re: #531 J.S.

In a conventional war, when soldiers in uniform kill civilians, that is permissible if the civilians are collateral damage, and so we do not call the soldiers terrorists.
So if a soldier kills a civilian while pursuing a valid military objective that is OK.
The military objective in the bombing of Dresden was arguably to knock out the industrial capacity of Germany, and the civilian deaths were collateral.
The military objective in the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was arguably to destroy Japanese infrastructure, to demoralize the Japanese armed forces and to save American and Japanese lives by inducing Japan to surrender.

Palestinians who carry out acts of terror in Israel are not soldiers because they are not members of a state. Therefore they are terrorists. They are criminals, not soldiers, and there is no State to answer for their actions.

One other crucial point: According to the whole fucking world, Israel is not allowed to fight by the usual rules of war which apply to every other nation. Israel is not allowed to hunt down and kill terrorists and their supporters - instead Israel is required to feed, clothe and finance terrorists. Israel is not allowed to win conventional wars, or to keep territory conquered in conventional wars. Israel is not even allowed to kill people who have sworn to destroy it and to wipe them off the face of the earth.
So ease up a little on WofG, he just got a little farchuddet but he is on the right side.

548 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:19:28pm
549 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:28:08pm

re 526.

If Bill Ayers purposefully intended to maim, murder, or harm civilians by using guerrilla tactics, and actually took steps towards those means, or actively encouraged others to do so, with the knowledge, and or intent that they would actually follow through, then he should be considered a terrorist.

He did. He is and he's not sorry.

Insofar that his writings at the time give evidence to the fact that the aforementioned were his intent, he should be considered a Terrorist.

I agree. He is still of that mindset.

However, if in some dream world what he is stating now, that he never intended to attack actual people, but only buildings, were true, then I am not convinced that that would make him a Terrorist.

If a group of "activists" took all necessary steps to alert people that they would bomb a building and not detonate the bomb if it meant risking injury, then, no, they would not fit the classic definition of "terrorist".

I reject the definition of Terrorism that states that it is simply "the use of violence to get a government to do something". This to me is too broad and would include all acts of war.

That is part of --but the compete -- classic definition of terrorism.

I think that all acts of violence made with the intent to be against our Government, and that of our allies is wrong.

I would agree.

I believe that concentrating on the method of that violence is an unnecessary distraction and we would be better served as a policy of the Politicians to concentrate instead on the pure act of desiring to commit acts of violence on our Country, and the steps taken by those actors to do so, instead of the specific methods they choose. I don't care if they are committing harm against my Country by homicide belt, use of civilian aircraft, tanks, or aerial bombings as all are wrong, harmful, and should be dealt with by most manners available to the public, and Government.

Not following you here. You're not that concerned where or how the bomb goes off, but more with the delivery system?

I reject the idea that the Government has the monopoly on all force, as I believe that this concept will leave the populace to the whims of the Government.

Not with the Second Amendment in place and the National Guard Units under the command of the States' governors.

The power of Government comes from the people, and not vice versa.

I do so hope Comrade Barry remembers this for the next four years.

In order to ensure that there is not a tyranny of the Government, it is incumbent upon the citizenry to use force of their own when necessary.

A little revolution now and then is a good thing. Civil disobedience can be a constructive force.

Just as is intended in the U.S. Declaration of Independence. I will not hand over the protection of my friends, and family to the Government.

Here's hoping that your friends and family don't hand you over to the government. BTW, I don't think the DOI says quite that.
Back to the salt mines

550 J.S.  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 2:32:18pm

re: #547 Spare O'Lake

Some of what I've been reading here -- whether it's a question about Dresden (I have not, heretofore, mentioned Dresden, btw), the bombing of Hiroshima, etc. -- the poster is repeating the "talking points" made by Islamists. They repeat what Osama bin Laden claims.

Also, I have NOT, repeat NOT, stated in any way, shape or form that a soldier in uniform who kills a civilian is a "terrorist." In fact, if you pursue this thread, that was one of the "points" the "WrathofG_d" poster attempted to make...in effect, stating that there is no difference between terrorists and those who fought in WWII...(only later did WoG make it clear that he was attempting to illustrate the "error" in some other poster's definition of "terrorism." But that certainly wasn't clear from his posts.)

anyway, I really don't see much value in pursuing this topic...(btw, there are a number of other requirements for being considered a "soldier"; not just wearing a uniform -- but I will assume you already know that, or can look it up.) I previously linked to a Dershowitz article (re: Amnesty International's insane and extremely dangerous allegations with respect to Israel...Dershowitz makes compelling arguments about the conduct of Israel in its fight against Hezbollah.)

551 june_july  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:05:09pm

The key message from this topic is that MEMRI has impact.

I got a request for donation from them a couple of months ago, and donated $100.

Obviously, money well spent.

552 the_flying_pig  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 8:09:54pm

re: #540 ploome hineni

A Jewish-American girl, believe it or not. I was discussing about MEMRI with her and she'd heard about it, then seen few MEMRI videos and thought there's something wrong with the translations. She's a Democrat (prefers Hillary Clinton to Obama), however she thinks Islam is nothing to worry about. I thought "WTF?".

Then, later on, I googled MEMRI and translation, results turned up and this one caught my eyes. I'll leave that to your own interpretation.

553 the_flying_pig  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 8:17:09pm

re: #542 WrathofG-d

You misinterpreted my post. See post #552. I ask for honesty, not deceit.

554 Tantor  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 3:23:49am

They came first for the Disney characters, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a cartoon;
And then they came for the cartoonists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a cartoonist;
And then they came for the funny pages, And I didn’t speak up because I didn't read the funny pages;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

555 carray  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 8:18:21am

It's a mickey mouse religion that would take issue with Mickey Mouse.

556 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 11:27:52am

This is just the tip of the "irrational iceberg " :

Egyptian "lawyer" to Israeli women: "Leave the land so we won't rape you"
"[Y]oung Arab men should sexually harass Israeli girls wherever they may be and using any possible method, as a new means in the resistance against Israel" -- and this from a female lawyer no less.

"Egyptian Lawyer Nagla Al-Imam Suggests Arab Men Should Sexually Harass Israeli Women and Declares: Leave the Land So We Won't Rape You," from MEMRI, originally airing October 31 (thanks to Dionysios):

Following are excerpts from an interview with Egyptian lawyer Nagla Al-Imam, which aired on Al-Arabiya TV on October 31, 2008.

Interviewer: Egyptian lawyer Nagla Al-Imam has proposed that young Arab men should sexually harass Israeli girls wherever they may be and using any possible method, as a new means in the resistance against Israel.

[...]

Interviewer: We have with us the lawyer Nagla Al-Imam from Cairo. Welcome. What is the purpose of this proposal of yours?

Nagla Al-Imam: This is a form of resistance. In my opinion, they are fair game for all Arabs, and there is nothing wrong with...

Interviewer: On what grounds?

Nagla Al-Imam: First of all, they violate our rights, and they "rape" the land. Few things are as grave as the rape of land. In my view, this is a new form of resistance.

Interviewer: As a lawyer, don't you think this might expose Arab youth to punishment for violating laws against sexual harassment?

Nagla Al-Imam: Most Arab countries... With the exception of three or four Arab countries, which I don’t think allow Israeli women to enter anyway, most Arab countries do not have sexual harassment laws. Therefore, if [Arab women] are fair game for Arab men, there is nothing wrong with Israeli women being fair game as well.

Interviewer: Does this also include rape?

Nagla Al-Imam: No. Sexual harassment... In my view, the [Israeli women] do not have any right to respond. The resistance fighters would not initiate such a thing, because their moral values are much loftier than that. However if such a thing did happen to them, the [Israeli women] have no right to make any demands, because this would put us on equal terms – leave the land so we won't rape you. These two things are equal.

[...]

I don’t want young Arab men to be interrogated. I want these Zionist girls with Israeli citizenship to be expelled from our Arab countries. This is a form of resistance, and a way of rejecting their presence.


Mickey Mouse ? Just kids stuff .

557 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 11:34:42am

This will no doubt lead to "mis-identifications" of many western woman .

Not to mention a great defense in rape trials ..." Your Honor , I though she was a jew " ...

558 Sacred Plants  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 10:16:38pm

Little corrupters? That´s naive. Mice don´t cause disease. Mice might carry fleas which might carry bacteria that cause disease.

And the imaginary mice that have befallen the American imagination in the 20th century carry infantile ideas of consumerism that cause frustration.

559 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 16, 2008 6:22:37am

re # 558

What ?

560 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 16, 2008 6:34:23am

...And NO YOGA NEITHER !

The Malaysian Insider
Sunday November 16 2008 Threat to ban yoga tests boundary of tolerance
KUALA LUMPUR, Nov 16 - Norien Hassan is used to pushing the limits in her yoga studio. What she did not expect was to test religious as well as physical boundaries.

The 37-year-old began practising yoga in Kuala Lumpur after she heard it could help women conceive.

Three years later, she is a proud married mother of two who now practises yoga up to six days a week as she trains to become an instructor.

Ms Norien, a devout Muslim, never imagined the exercise could conflict with her Islamic beliefs.

"Yoga is a form of exercise. There's many benefits to it," she said. "I don't see it as being religious. I don't see how it would interfere."

Others disagree. Malaysia's National Fatwa Council, one of the country's highest Islamic bodies, is considering banning yoga for Muslims after a university lecturer advised people to stop practising it for fear that it could deviate from the teachings of Islam.

The proposal follows a number of fatwas, or decrees, that have sparked the ire of women's groups, who argue that the fatwas unfairly discriminate against Muslim women.

Sisters in Islam, which promotes the rights of Muslim women, has become increasingly concerned by the Malaysian authorities' "continuing sexist approach".

In June, the Kota Bharu Municipal Council in the country's northeast issued a directive asking Muslim women not to wear heavy lipstick or high heels.

In recent years, the National Fatwa Council has issued rulings forbidding Muslims from using botox and women from entering beauty pageants.

Last month it banned women from exhibiting tomboy behaviour, which it defined as behaving or dressing like men or taking part in lesbian sex.

561 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 16, 2008 8:48:44am

While on the subject of "mickey mouse :

Palestinian Authority libel:
Israel's supernatural rats
chase away Jerusalem's Arabs
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, July 24, 2008

The Palestinian Authority has come up with yet another wild accusation about Israel. Two PA newspapers - one directly controlled by the office of PA President Mahmoud Abbas - are accusing Israel of releasing rats with supernatural qualities to chase away the Arab residents of Jerusalem.

According to the PA papers, the Israeli-Jerusalem rat is:

1. Immune to rat poison;
2. Aggressive and larger than usual;
3. Unafraid of cats and able to scare them away;
4. Highly fertile -- female rat gives birth to 140 babies a year, four times the normal average;
5. Highly selective -- Jewish residents of Jerusalem apparently are not affected by these rats.

Israel's goal, the libelous PA articles accuse, is "to turn the residents' life into a living hell, forcing them to leave." Interestingly, the articles do not mention how the rats are trained to differentiate between Jewish and Arab residents of Jerusalem.

The following are the two stories:

"...one of the most amazing things that we've read during this month is that [Israeli] settlers have been bringing chests filled with rats and releasing them in the Old City's [Arab] neighborhoods; they breed and have become a major curse... the [Arab] residents' efforts to counter this infestation have failed, especially since cats run away from these rats because of their size and ferocity... All of the conventional efforts to kill them have not succeeded, because they seem to be immune to poison and they breed in the sewers. It is known that this female rat gives birth seven times a year, each time giving birth to 20 babies; which compels Jerusalem's [Arabs] today to face the dangers of settlement and the infestation of rats..." [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, controlled by the office of Mahmoud Abbas, July 18, 2008]

"Large numbers of [Israeli] settlers have been bringing huge cages full of rats and releasing them onto the streets and alleys of the Old City [Jerusalem]...in order to turn the [Arab] residents' life into a living hell, forcing then to leave..." [Al-Ayyam, July 17, 2008]


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