What is Fascism?

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
World • Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 3:25 pm PST • Views: 599

As some well-known “anti-jihad” writers and bloggers continue to defend the Belgian Vlaams Belang party against a mountain of well-documented charges that they are a fascist group, it’s very revealing to read the definition of “fascism” that concludes Robert Paxton’s comprehensive scholarly work, The Anatomy of Fascism.

The correlation between these points, the tactics and positions of the Vlaams Belang, and the rationalizations of the “anti-Islamization” groups who are making alliances with them, is simply stunning.

* a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;

* the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;

* the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;

* dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;

* the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary;

* the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny;

* the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason;

* the beauty of violence and efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success

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316 comments

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1 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:27:09pm
* the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;

Sounds suspiciously like religion.

2 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:28:29pm

Absolute nail on the head, all net no basket definition. Bingo, and I must get this book.

3 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:29:07pm

Wow, should have read more of that before posting. . .there are SEVERAL points that are apt descriptions of some of the worlds more fundamentalist religious groups.

Ironic, since Vlaams is itself 'crusading' against a religion.

4 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:29:27pm

re: #1 Yashmak

Only like some religious factions. The "fear" factions.

5 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:29:57pm

Sounds a lot like Pelosi's congress

6 nikis-knight  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:32:28pm

Collectivism--wrong no matter what the group calls itself--Class, Nation, Ummah.

7 gop_patriot  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:32:40pm

re: #5 Shug

Sounds a lot like Pelosi's congress

LOL! Especially this one:

* the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason;
8 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:32:52pm

This essay's definition is fascism is really about the modern, lower-case "unofficial" type of fascism. Actual Fascism has a capital F and is of course closely linked to the Italian political party of the 1920s which was eventually led by Mussolini. They had a specific set of beliefs and political goals that don't quite match the modern notion of lower-case-f fascism.

9 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:33:13pm

re: #5 Shug

Sounds a lot like Pelosi's congress

Hell, the whole demonrat party!

10 Silhouette  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:33:48pm

Can this be like "Happiness is...
...a warm puppy."?

I'll start.

Fascism is...
...cheating at elections because it is more important your guy win than the will of your neighbors be accurately reflected.

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:34:39pm

re: #8 zombie

This essay's definition is fascism is really about the modern, lower-case "unofficial" type of fascism. Actual Fascism has a capital F and is of course closely linked to the Italian political party of the 1920s which was eventually led by Mussolini. They had a specific set of beliefs and political goals that don't quite match the modern notion of lower-case-f fascism.

The book goes into great detail on this and many other subjects. It's the most exhaustive examination of the various flavors of fascism I've read.

12 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:35:24pm

re: #4 Thanos

Only like some religious factions. The "fear" factions.

Yeah, I realized after I already hit 'post' that I'd worded that in a rather inflammatory way. I clarified what I meant in #3.

13 nikis-knight  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:35:58pm

re: #9 VegasRick

Hell, the whole demonrat party!

I don't really want us to start throwing the word fascist at political foes, just because every Dem has so debased the word with regard to the republican party.

14 neocon hippie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:36:57pm

re: #8 zombie

What would be some of the differences?

Seems like Paxton's definition ties the various forms of fascism together.

15 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:37:08pm

re: #13 nikis-knight

I don't really want us to start throwing the word fascist at political foes, just because every Dem has so debased the word with regard to the republican party.

Indeed. I toyed with the idea of making that comparison too, but there are too many disimilarities.

16 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:37:24pm

re: #11 Charles

I will check it out. I previously read Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism", which I found to be a very informative work, exhaustively researched by Mr. Goldman. It was not a light read, to the contrary.

17 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:37:35pm

"a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions"
I would say that pretty well describes the current state of the global economy AND of our domestic national political scene.
Not that I'm advocating fascism, mind you.

18 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:37:56pm

Lizard Derangement Syndrome over at those blogs in five...four...three...two...one

19 nikis-knight  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:38:29pm

re: #15 Yashmak

On the other hand, more pointed arguements, such as Jonah's Liberal Fascism, are important to make.

20 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:38:41pm

Something I've always found interesting is that the American "Mercury dime" which was in use during the entire history of the Italian Fascist Party itself had a fasces on the back; there was an obsession in that era with Roman political symbols, and the fasces -- bundle of rods from which Fascism took its name -- were used as the symbol of political power in ancient Rome. All throughout WWII, our coins has the same symbol as Italian coins, for the same reason. Even though we were at war with Italy. Kind of unsettling. I don't know why they never changed it, at least until FDR died.

21 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:38:41pm

We all have occasional fascist impulses - even among some lizards here at LGF, if I may be so bold.
We must always be on guard to see that those tendencies are suppressed and held in check.
That is exactly what Charles and Stinky spend a lot of their time doing, and that is what makes LGF such a powerful site.
Yodel-odel-ay-ay-hooo!

22 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:38:47pm

re: #14 neocon hippie
Hey Hippy did you see Neil Young's show?
How was it?

23 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:39:31pm

re: #15 Yashmak

Indeed. I toyed with the idea of making that comparison too, but there are too many disimilarities.

Like what?

24 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:39:44pm

re: #11 Charles

The book goes into great detail on this and many other subjects. It's the most exhaustive examination of the various flavors of fascism I've read.

Ah, I was going by just the definition summarized in the conclusion. I was referring to the quote cited above, not the whole book, obviously -- which I have yet to read!

25 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:40:10pm

re: #14 neocon hippie

What would be some of the differences?

Seems like Paxton's definition ties the various forms of fascism together.

The origin of the word is from the Latin "fasces" which were birch rods, bound together by leather straps, symbolizing, "from many, one".

26 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:41:31pm

re: #8 zombie

This essay's definition is fascism is really about the modern, lower-case "unofficial" type of fascism. Actual Fascism has a capital F and is of course closely linked to the Italian political party of the 1920s which was eventually led by Mussolini. They had a specific set of beliefs and political goals that don't quite match the modern notion of lower-case-f fascism.

There was also the Spanish version as well.

27 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:41:38pm

re: #22 CalBear84

Hey Hippy HIPPIE did you see Neil Young's show?
How was it?

28 LynnfromNZ  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:41:43pm

Does sound like a pretty good checklist for today's liberal Democrats. anybody read jonah goldberg's liberal fascists?

29 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:41:55pm

re: #9 VegasRick

Hell, the whole demonrat party!


Haar, I agree except I now call them "scurvy bilge-rats" or "socialists". They are interchangeable by definition!

30 dentate  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:42:15pm

dunno, reads like a pretty good description of zombies to me, based on the zombie movies I've seen ;-)

31 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:42:37pm

re: #23 VegasRick

Like what?

For instance, until the election, the 'chief' was Nancy Pelosi, a female. Just to name one.

and:
* dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;

The Democrats don't dread any of those things. . .they actually benefit from them.

Not to mention the reluctance to use (on an official level) violence for ANY reason, even when it's in the group's best interests to do so.

32 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:42:43pm

re: #18 Pvt Bin Jammin
It won't just be derangement, it will be full blown, frothing at the mouth, howling at the moon, batshit crazy.

33 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:44:10pm

re: #32 pingjockey

LOL It's going to be a full moon tonight as well, I believe. It might really get crazy.

34 LynnfromNZ  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:44:12pm

re: #1 Yashmak

which one of those points is unique to religion?

35 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:44:20pm

re: #29 LoFlyer

Haar, I agree except I now call them "scurvy bilge-rats" or "socialists". They are interchangeable by definition!

I like the "scurvy bilge-rats" description but I would like to add "F***ing" in front of "scurvy bilge-rats".

36 neocon hippie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:44:22pm

re: #22 CalBear84

I did, and Neil and company were excellent.

37 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:45:10pm

re: #31 Yashmak
Nancy Pelosi was not the Chief of the donks. She couldn't even keep the donks in Congress under control.

38 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:45:45pm

This accurately describes not just fascism, but every totalitarian form of government. Furthermore, it has several elements in common with , believe it or not, various "fringe" belief systems, notably the various forms of UFO cultism, to wit;

UFO belief is permeated by paranoid themes that include furtive activities, spying and reconnaissance, influencing machine fantasies, worldwide conspiracies, invasion fears, persecution, miscegenation and degeneration, grandeur, cosmic identification, and a ubiquitous stream of world destruction fantasies.

-- Martin S. Kottmeyer, The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters,
edited by Ronald D. Story.

As with the UFO believers, most fascist/totalitarian movements accuse their "enemies" (real or invented) of plotting against them on a grandiose scale. They also hold the belief that they are a "superior elite" that is better fitted to rule than anyone else- which, of course, is why they are "persecuted". The most obvious similarity between UFO belief and totalitarian dogma is the common belief held by both that, again in the words of Kotmeyer (regarding the so-called "Prison Earth" theory), "We (humans) are ultimately beyond reasoning with and do not deserve to be free." Rather, both such philosophies hold that we should be ruled by an "enlightened elite" composed of their own "true believers", acting as "benevolent despots".

Never mind that there is no such thing as a benevolent despot.

If you conclude from this that I consider fascism, totalitarianism, and UFO "cultism" as social/mental disorders, you are correct. They all stem from egotism, narcissism, paranoia, and megalomania- just in different degrees, and using somewhat different methods.

The results, however, tend to be uniformly catastrophic, either on the micro scale (the Heaven's Gate suicides) or the macro scale (World War II, the Cold War, etc.).

/just IMHO

cheers

eon

39 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:46:16pm

re: #34 LynnfromNZ

which one of those points is unique to religion?

None are unique to religion. The one point I quoted reminded me of most religious fundamentalist group, and their relationship with the countries they are residents of. As I noted in #12, my comment #1 wasn't exactly what I meant to say.

40 HoosierHoops  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:46:16pm

re: #36 neocon hippie

I did, and Neil and company were excellent.

Does Nel and his wife have a special needs child?
what a great musician.

41 nikis-knight  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:47:11pm

re: #17 CalBear84

"a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions"
I would say that pretty well describes the current state of the global economy AND of our domestic national political scene.
Not that I'm advocating fascism, mind you.


What we need in each case is a refinement on what worked, not blind hope in a polical savior or scape-goating, however.

The war on terror is being waged by adapting counter-insurgency strategies that have been proven elsewhere, as well as survailence, tough diplomacy, tracing financial transactions, etc. We need to keep up the national will to do so. We don't need a charismatic strongman or endless imperialism (which I do not characterize our efforts as in anyway, despite the loons who do so).

The financial problems require, well, probably restraint more than anything, and restraint from over-reaching solutions on the macro-level and over-reaching of personal finances. Some careful and limited regulations, and clear delinations of public and private enterprises would probably help. We don't need nationalizing industries or demonizing independant entreprenuership.

42 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:47:34pm

re: #28 LynnfromNZ

Does sound like a pretty good checklist for today's liberal Democrats. anybody read jonah goldberg's liberal fascists?

Yes, I have read Liberal Fascism. Excellent book. What is really scary is that it reveals just how fascist America was during the Presidency of Woodrow Wilson. Looks like it bodes to do the same under Obama; at least if Obama gets his way.

43 neocon hippie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:03pm

I've read Liberal Fascism and it's a real eye-opener. Very well-written, too. I get an almost wistful feeling looking at his chapter on Hillary, who was "inevitable" at the time of the book's writing. Jonah was not able to anticipate the explosive emergence of the wacky Baracky.

44 Emperor Norton  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:13pm

From George Orwell's essay "What is Fascism?" (1944) :

"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

45 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:17pm

Notice this point:

the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external...

Exactly describes the sort of vicious, highly personal and sleazy attacks that were launched at me, as soon as I voiced the mildest of criticisms of the 'anti-jihad' alliance with VB and other Eurofascists.

46 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:21pm

re: #37 pingjockey

Nancy Pelosi was not the Chief of the donks. She couldn't even keep the donks in Congress under control.

Yeah, but she was as close as they had to a 'chief'. You comment simply emphasizes the dissimilarity, as facist is generally quite centralized, and its chiefs wield a great deal of control over the group.

47 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:32pm

re: #31 Yashmak

For instance, until the election, the 'chief' was Nancy Pelosi, a female. Just to name one.

and:
* dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;

The Democrats don't dread any of those things. . .they actually benefit from them.

Not to mention the reluctance to use (on an official level) violence for ANY reason, even when it's in the group's best interests to do so.

And I submit
* a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;
* the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;
* the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;
* the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason;
* the beauty of violence and efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group’s success

48 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:35pm

re: #35 VegasRick

I like the "scurvy bilge-rats" description but I would like to add "F***ing" in front of "scurvy bilge-rats".

How about "fracken' scurvey bilge-rats" mate?
/keeps it clean for the kiddies!

49 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:48:45pm

OT

Even though I have no problem with gay marriage and was personally somewhat opposed to California's Proposition 8, I took a small bit of schadenfreude from the fact that the local moonbats' joy over Obama's victory was pretty much ruined by the passage of Prop. 8 on the same day. The marriage issue is quite low on my list of political concerns, so my internal conflict on the issue doesn't bother me much.

I've taken the opportunity to leave the following message on this blog posting about a anti-Prop-8 rally tomorrow:

---

"Your description of the protest says, 'We are committed to being an inclusive, anti-racist event.'

What?!?!? You have got to be kidding me. The post-election anti-Prop.-8 movement is the biggest eruption of racism in America in recent years. All the exit polls and all the voter analysis showed that Proposition 8 passed primarily because of Black and Hispanic voters, who voted in favor of it in overwhelming numbers; whereas the anti-8 voters were almost exclusively all white. Now once again, the white people want to take away the vote and the power from the minorities. Welcome to the new Jim Crow era! Except this time, YOU are the racists and the oppressors. That's right, YOU. Deal with it. Live with it. Embrace your new identity as white oppressors, because that's exactly what you are. You simply can't stand it when minorities have the temerity to actually speak their minds.

Your hypocrisy and sanctimoniousness disgust me."

---
(It will never be posted, I'm sure, since comments there are moderated.)

Sometimes, I do things just for the specific purpose of making moonbat heads explode.

50 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:49:09pm

Cheerful friday afternoon headline on MSN:
The hot-tempered, sexy and smart Emanuel brothers!

MUST...VOMIT...NOW

51 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:49:49pm

So, Filip Dewinter goes to a book fair, what book does he buy?

Vu de droite: Anthologie critique des idées contemporaines

/of course, you can't judge a book by its cover or the author, but you can just smell the facism

52 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:49:51pm

re: #31 Yashmak

For instance, until the election, the 'chief' was Nancy Pelosi, a female. Just to name one.

and:
* dread of the group’s decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;

The Democrats don't dread any of those things. . .they actually benefit from them.

Not to mention the reluctance to use (on an official level) violence for ANY reason, even when it's in the group's best interests to do so.

The last of these is a bit of stretch, eh? Forgotten about Waco already?

53 Omega Man  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:50:24pm

I've been reading Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism. Whether you agree with his thesis or not, you have to admit that this sounds a lot like socialism with the added component of nationalism (or xenophobia). I guess this is why the Nazis called themselves "National Socialists".

54 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:50:38pm

re: #36 neocon hippie

Missed his show in San Diego...drat

55 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:50:57pm

re: #31 Yashmak


Not to mention the reluctance to use (on an official level) violence for ANY reason, even when it's in the group's best interests to do so.

We shall see.

56 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:51:41pm

re: #47 VegasRick

A thing can share aspects in common with another, and yet not be that thing. A bear is brown, has 4 legs, 2 ears, eats meat, etc. So does a dog. A bear is not a dog. It's the differences that matter.

While liberalism does have some disturbing things in common with facism, no doubt about it, there are too many differences for a thinking person to equate them.

57 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:51:42pm

re: #46 YashmakAha. Gotcha. The Chief in a truly Fascist regime has total control.

58 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:52:10pm

re: #41 nikis-knight
Very well said.
Would you consider running for higher office?

59 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:52:54pm

re: #51 Killian Bundy

So, Filip Dewinter goes to a book fair, what book does he buy?

Vu de droite: Anthologie critique des idées contemporaines

/of course, you can't judge a book by its cover or the author, but you can just smell the facism

The NY Review of Books describes De Benoist's book in this article:

De Benoist claims that the central issues of the traditional right, among them genetics, race, and inequality, have been discredited by their association with Nazism, and he tries to give them new life by grafting them on to such subsciences as sociobiology and ethnology. De Benoist is particularly attracted to sociobiology, which has recently gained an enthusiastic hearing in France. But he has a tendency to present the hypotheses of sociobiology as proven conclusions and then to extend these “conclusions” to far-ranging fields. For example, he writes, “all politics today implies a biopolitics.” And he cites with enthusiasm the words of Professor Robert Mallet, the chancellor of the Universities of Paris, that some day “the genetic code will help inform the civil codes.”

60 John Blake  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:53:48pm

Just saw a bumper sticker yesterday here in AZ. WHEN FASCISM FINALLY COMES TO AMERICA, IT WILL BE WRAPPED IN THE FLAG, CARRYING A CROSS.

She also had one of those coexist stickers and a sticker for President elect BHO.

I sped up to have a look. ugh

61 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:53:48pm

Mussolini's Fascist Manifesto written in 1919 sounds downright Leftist by today's standards.

Of course, Fascism is better defined by it's historic legacy rather than how it once invisioned itself.

62 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:54:18pm

Haar, back later mates! 'Me magic lasagna is ready!

63 Athos  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:54:28pm

I only regret that I can give this post by Charles just one up-ding. It deserves dozens.

Ignoring the fascism of groups like VB because they stand to fight islamofascism is an exercise of moral and intellectual cowardice. It means that one supports fascism - and you are willing to just argue about the degree of fascism one supports.

We need to stand against fascism in all forms...otherwise it will overtake us.

Charles, keep shining the light on these groups and their direct and indirect supporters / enablers.

64 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:54:43pm

re: #49 zombie
Excellent post...however, these people are immune to moral argument.

65 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:54:49pm

And yes, if that sounds a lot like eugenics, that's because it is.

66 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:55:04pm

re: #52 Alberta Oil Peon

The last of these is a bit of stretch, eh? Forgotten about Waco already?

I'm not exactly sure that applies. . .

67 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:56:12pm

re: #60 John Blake

Those "Coexist" stickers might as well be changed to:
Driver is a moral idiot

68 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:57:44pm

re: #59 Charles

The NY Review of Books describes De Benoist's book in this article:

That is scary. More than just eugenics, it's old-school pseudo-science racism.

69 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:58:54pm

re: #67 CalBear84
I want to know whom they wish to co-exist with? Everyone? They don't realize that islamo head choppers won't co-exist with them.

70 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:59:02pm

re: #59 Charles

Spencer claims that since the book won an award it can't possibly be fascist.

71 gop_patriot  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:59:03pm

re: #59 Charles

The NY Review of Books describes De Benoist's book in this article:

That is scary stuff.

72 Athos  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:59:20pm

re: #49 zombie

On your OT - The LA Daily News printed in its letters to the editors column earlier this week a letter that defined California as a theocracy and no longer a democracy because Yes for Prop 8 won the vote. Needless to say, it's humorous as to how the writer has it all backwards, when democracy, by a vote of about 53% to 47%, stated it's preference that the word marriage is defined as being between one man and one woman in the State Constitution, and it was a small group of 4 jurists, representing a secular progressive agenda (religion?) that acted as theocrats to force a re-definition of a word on millions despite the will of the people in 2000.

Think about the hypocrisy of these groups marching if, the results being reversed, groups of Catholics, Mormons, and others took to the streets to complain about the results of the vote...they would be shouting that votes do make a difference and telling these groups to shutup and accept the will of the people.

73 A Balrog of Morgoth  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:59:22pm

Want to be a fascist? Just take socialism, add a pinch of racism and a teaspoon of xenophobic nationalism, and you are pretty much there.

74 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:59:50pm

re: #56 Yashmak

A thing can share aspects in common with another, and yet not be that thing. A bear is brown, has 4 legs, 2 ears, eats meat, etc. So does a dog. A bear is not a dog. It's the differences that matter.

While liberalism does have some disturbing things in common with facism, no doubt about it, there are too many differences for a thinking person to equate them.

Nice We can agree to disagree if you like, but you seem to me to be a little like a lib dem accusing someone who does not agree with you as not a "thinking" person.

75 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:00:18pm

re: #69 pingjockey

I want to know whom they wish to co-exist with? Everyone? They don't realize that islamo head choppers won't co-exist with them.

Indeed. . .last time I checked, the 'co' part of co-existence means both parties have to willingly participate. When one refuses, there is no co-existence.

76 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:00:20pm

"Biopolitics" AKA racism.

77 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:00:43pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Spencer claims that since the book won an award it can't possibly be fascist.

On the same note: Gore Wins Nobel Prize.

78 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:00:56pm

re: #60 John Blake

Just saw a bumper sticker yesterday here in AZ. WHEN FASCISM FINALLY COMES TO AMERICA, IT WILL BE WRAPPED IN THE FLAG, CARRYING A CROSS.

This is actually a quote from Nobel-prize winning author Sinclair Lewis, from the 1930s.

79 Athos  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:01:12pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Spencer claims that since the book won an award it can't possibly be fascist.

I wonder if Robert's support of the book is strictly because it won an award and that any support based on what the book actually says is immaterial and irrelevant?

80 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:01:26pm

#49 Zombie

LOVE IT! Love what you wrote - love this site - love your posts and photo essays!
I've been a member for a long time but rarely post. Just wanted to let you know that my son is now a fan of yours also. He is a linquist in the Air Force learning to speak Pashtu. I was so happy when he started quoting "LGF". I am hoping to find registration open soon so he can join. I'm certain he would fit rit in this Lizard Lounge.

81 nikis-knight  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:01:54pm

The democrats and all points left certainly do foster a victimhood mentality in any group that bothers to listen, which is a grave evil in and of itself. Vicitm groups are denied moral agency and forgiven of any actions taken to try and alleve this status, real or imagined. Believing oneself a victim creates feelings of helplessness and rage, making it all but impossible to integrate into society and to have a happy life.
Democrats do this both because they believe it is true and ignore or do not care about the negative effects of their actions (no good intention could ever have a hellish consequence in the liberal mind.) and also as a cynical manipulation to attain political power on the backs of those yoked with this attitude.

82 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:02:14pm

re: #74 VegasRick

Nice We can agree to disagree if you like, but you seem to me to be a little like a lib dem accusing someone who does not agree with you as not a "thinking" person.

That wasn't my intent. Is it any better to call me 'a little like a lib dem'?

83 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:02:52pm
a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions

From the very beginning of my time here at LGF I was always surprised by some of the European's shrillness at the situation.

I spend a lot of time in Europe. I do not see any reason to abandon democracy and traditional solutions.

84 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:03:06pm

re: #79 Athos

I wonder if Robert's support of the book is strictly because it won an award and that any support based on what the book actually says is immaterial and irrelevant?


The only reason he's supporting the book is to defend his fascist buddies in Vlaams Belang.

85 CalBear84  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:04:18pm

re: #69 pingjockey

Last weekend I was riding my bicycle with a large local bike club.
A driver went by, honking and yelling at us to get out of the road.
I shouted "Co-Exist!"
The driver's wife, in the passenger seat, started laughing, and they left us alone.

86 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:04:47pm

re: #80 monkeytime

#49 Zombie

LOVE IT! Love what you wrote - love this site - love your posts and photo essays!
I've been a member for a long time but rarely post. Just wanted to let you know that my son is now a fan of yours also. He is a linquist in the Air Force learning to speak Pashtu. I was so happy when he started quoting "LGF". I am hoping to find registration open soon so he can join. I'm certain he would fit rit in this Lizard Lounge.

Tell your son hello from me! Did he attend the Defense Language Institute in Monterey? A relative of mine almost went there, but backed out at the last minute for personal reasons.

87 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:06:18pm

Apart from the point about class conflict being one of the corrosives, this definition of fascism is a perfect fit for the variant of fascism known as "Communism".

Apart from the business of a merely "national" chieftain being the salvation of the group, it's a perfect fit for the teachings of Khomeini, the Wahabbis, and so on.

So now the question arises, which of these fascist movements is most to be feared? The real fascists, with 30 million dead to answer for? [But they lost the war. Finito.] The Communist variant, with 100 million but now kind of out of steam? The Islamic fascists, with millions killed only if you include the Armenian genocide or what was done long ago in India? Or the wannabes of VB etc., who dabble in fascism and make like grownups...but who are only funny while they're weak?

To hell with the lot of them.

88 Dave the.....  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:06:18pm

Heh, I'm listening to left wing news on a local "community radio" right now. They seem concerned that Obama may take a centrist view. Same with congress. They don't want any Republicans in his cabinet.

I really don't think they have too much to worry about.

Oh, man are these guys anal. Now they are digging out quotes from commentators from 2004 and saying "see, that's what you said 4 years ago".

89 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:06:40pm

re: #65 Charles

One often-overlooked aspect of fascist/totalitarian belief systems is their fascination with "soft" or "fringe" scientific, or even pseudo-scientific, theories, which they often use to justify their actions.

Besides eugenics, the German fascists had Hans Horbiger's "Eternal Ice" theory which in their minds replaced existing cosmology. In the USSR, "Lysenkoism" was at least partly responsible for the famines which killed over 6 million people in Georgia and the Ukraine in the 1930s- Soviet agriculture took almost three decades to recover, and Lysenko's theories still held sway in the Soviet Academy of Sciences in the 1960s.

And of course modern-day totalitarian movements, of all stripes, believe some of the oddest and most unprovable things you can imagine. ("We never went to the Moon" is just a small sample of this.)

I tend to the theory that the more scientifically literate a person is, the less likely they are to buy into the ideas that totalitarians swear are The Absolute Final Truth of Everything.

Or at least want to know "what's your proof?" before signing on.

cheers

eon

90 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:07:58pm

re: #66 Yashmak

I'm not exactly sure that applies. . .

When Janet Reno, a Democrat, uses massive force to assault the Branch Davidian compound, when they could have simply arrested David Koresh quietly on one of his many visits to town? Naaah, she was making a point; making an example of all those fascists.

FWIW, I agree that David Koresh was a crazy nutbar, and he had a flock of confused sheep. But Reno chose entirely the wrong way to deal with him.

91 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:08:27pm

re: #20 zombie

Something I've always found interesting is that the American "Mercury dime" which was in use during the entire history of the Italian Fascist Party itself had a fasces on the back; there was an obsession in that era with Roman political symbols, and the fasces -- bundle of rods from which Fascism took its name -- were used as the symbol of political power in ancient Rome.

Correction, zombie: the fascination with ancient Greece and Rome was always a part of American culture, from our country's founding -- it was only after WWII that the fasces was tainted by association with Mussolini. (There are fasces all over Washington, DC, in pre-WWII architecture and monuments.)

92 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:08:50pm

re: #83 experiencedtraveller

From the very beginning of my time here at LGF I was always surprised by some of the European's shrillness at the situation.

I spend a lot of time in Europe. I do not see any reason to abandon democracy and traditional solutions.

I bet that the individuals who agree with this philosophy are the same people who keep voting for the politicians that put their countries in that position in the first place.

93 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:09:30pm

re: #1 Yashmak

Sounds suspiciously like religion.

re: #82 Yashmak

That wasn't my intent. Is it any better to call me 'a little like a lib dem'?

Well...you did start off with "

Sounds suspiciously like religion.

" then I was not a "thinking" person because I did not agree with you. Sooo...

94 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:11:24pm

re: #90 Alberta Oil Peon

Yeah, it was definitely a mistake, but I don't think an isolated exception to the rule many years ago overturns my point.

Then again, perhaps I am mistaken on this one. . .after all, the military adventure in Bosnia under Clinton WAS rather ill-advised. But if we're to use that as the yardstick, there are bound to be some people on the left who can point said yardstick directly back at the outgoing administration, eh?

:)

95 nikis-knight  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:12:10pm

You know, in all honesty, I think my opposing calling democrats fascist, other than the fact that one word rebuttals and name-calling is a stiffling of discourse, is purely tactical, based on the fact that people overwhlemingly, and understandably, associate fascism with nazi death camps.

But fascism, at it's core, is everything in/for the state, nothing outside the state. Not in a purely racial way, even, just that Big Brother should make all the decisions, not the millions of individuals. This is why it is inextricably linked to socialism, even when squabbling with communists or other socialist groups.

And this is the direction that the democratic party is taking the country, I think, sadly. But as pointed out in the aforementioned Liberal Fascism, we have been on that road before.

96 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:12:46pm

Hey Zombie,
Yea, Nick, is at the Language Institute in Monterey now. He wants to serve his country in the Air Force and then go back to his home state and run for office. Can you imagine - an LGF'r running for public office? KOS would explode - lol.
I'm very proud - but of course, I am his mother. :>)
Thanks for asking.

97 Dianna  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:13:06pm

re: #65 Charles

And yes, if that sounds a lot like eugenics, that's because it is.

Eugenics revolted me once I understood it. But - like a lot of science fiction readers - the actuality of what the notion of "human improvement" would result in took a while to sink in.

98 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:13:33pm
some day “the genetic code will help inform the civil codes.”


It already does. It has done so since time before memory. That's why we have laws against incest. (That's why we have innate aversions to incest, for that matter.) Everybody has genes that code for severe abnormalities. We don't all have bodies and brains thus damaged, because we have two copies of almost every gene, and the good one masks the bad one. Close relatives share much of their genone. When close relatives mate and bring forth a child, that child is much more likely to get two copies of the same bad gene. The gene will be expressed, not masked, and the child will be born severely crippled in mind, body, or both.

Genetics isn't some evil Mad Scientist racist plot. It's as much a part of reality as gravity. Any society whose laws fly in the face of reality will not fly. As we learn more about genetics, our laws will indeed be more informed by what we know.

99 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:14:32pm

Finally, Spiders in space!
Spiders spin webs in space

TWO spiders are heading to space tonight on a three-month mission.

The pair are being sent by Nasa to the International Space Station as part a schools education programme to see how they cope with spinning in zero gravity.

They will be sealed inside a special compartment for blast-off from Florida and have their own rations — live fruit flies fattened up on dog food.

100 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:14:37pm

re: #94 Yashmak

Yeah, it was definitely a mistake, but I don't think an isolated exception to the rule many years ago overturns my point.

Then again, perhaps I am mistaken on this one. . .after all, the military adventure in Bosnia under Clinton WAS rather ill-advised. But if we're to use that as the yardstick, there are bound to be some people on the left who can point said yardstick directly back at the outgoing administration, eh?

:)

Except the out-going administration was governing when over 3000 people were killed in a direct attack on the US.

101 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:15:50pm

re: #93 VegasRick

As I already explained in #12, I clarified my poorly worded, and excessively inflammatory initial comment in #3. I also indicated I meant you no slight. Is that not enough?

102 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:16:08pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Finally, Spiders in space!
Spiders spin webs in space

My experiment would be to see how they splatter in zero gravity when hit by my shoe

103 Irenike  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:16:09pm

In the past, I have recommended Thomas Sowell's book "Vision of the Anointed." I'm recommending it again because Sowell brilliantly describes how liberal visions of the "perfect" society lead to bad consequences. On one level, the book is a psychological analysis of the leftist impulses that lead toward a fascist society.

Here is a quote from p. 242:

"Whether dealing with crime, foreign policty, the economy, the environment, or a thousand other issues, the first prerequisite is that these issues must be conceived in terms which flatter the egos of the anointed. The question is not how to reduce crime, but how to showcase the superiority of the anointed to the benighted on the crime issue, such as by talking about 'root causes.' In foreign policy, the issue is not how best to safeguard the lives and livelihoods of the American people, but how to showcase the superior wisdom and virtue of the anointed, such as by promoting disinterested kinght-errantry around the world . . ."

104 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:16:35pm

re: #72 Athos

by a vote of about 53% to 47%, stated it's preference that the word marriage is defined as being between one man and one woman in the State Constitution

Isn't that about the same margin by which Obama won the popular vote? And aren't we all accepting it and moving on? A vote's a vote. That's just the way it is.

Think about the hypocrisy of these groups marching if, the results being reversed, groups of Catholics, Mormons

Are there any arguments from gay marriage advocates that can't also be used to support polygamy?

105 calcajun  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:17:09pm

re: #1 Yashmak

Sounds suspiciously like religion.

That's the point, you git. But not just any religion. Now, it can be and has been argued that communism and fascism are in a way a religion, where the group/state have supplanted God. Now, place God at the center and have a small select group people who have the secret knowledge of what is God's will and you have the recipe for a disaster.

106 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:17:35pm

re: #100 Soona'

Except the out-going administration was governing when over 3000 people were killed in a direct attack on the US.

Quite. I didn't say they'd have a GOOD reason to point that yardstick back. . .just that they'd do it.

107 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:18:33pm

re: #92 Soona'

I bet that the individuals who agree with this philosophy are the same people who keep voting for the politicians that put their countries in that position in the first place.

Yes. And it seems that the European 'unassimilated minority' problem is compounded by 'traditional' European class distinctions and, yes, downright racism. Fighting racism with racism is a losing battle.

European democracy is going through a dysfunctional era mostly due to the expansion of the European Union. Whereas our Declaration and Bill of Rights are beautifully written documents, the founding EU documents are incomprehensibly dense and obtuse. Certainly nothing to rally around in fact, they seem to rally the opposition to the whole idea.

108 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:19:14pm

OT

It's awful quiet in here tonight. Where is everyone?

109 Cutty Sark  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:19:48pm

I got it ! islamo-fascism ...it meets all Paxton's criteria

110 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:20:09pm

re: #108 Miss Trixie

OT

It's awful quiet in here tonight. Where is everyone?

Friday night, party night. By the way, just got back from the new Bond movie. Meh, about average.

111 whiterasta  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:20:24pm

re: #98 lostlakehiker

I have acquaintance of a couple in the UK. They have 3 kids, all of whom have severe genetic problems.

It turns out they are uncle and niece. Blood uncle and niece.

I wanted to run out of the room and throw up when I found out.

Incidentally, they are not members of a certain Religion of Peace.

Just your run of the mill, trashy inbreeders.

He has not worked for 20 years and they are housed clothed, etc by the British taxpayers.

112 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:21:06pm

re: #108 Miss Trixie

There is no possible way I could be more boring. I'm sitting here watching the Space Shuttle which doesn't take off for 9 minutes - RIVITING!
I need a drink.

113 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:21:30pm

I am sitting in Chicago at the airport waiting to get back to Baltimore. Its packed here.

114 Intrepid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:21:34pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Finally, Spiders in space!
Spiders spin webs in space

Yeah, but what do their little space suits look like?

heh

115 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:21:42pm

The shadows of evening lengthen across the San Gabriel Mountains of California. The Towercam, Pacific time zone.

Natural beauty, Rx for stupid political movements.

"Paradise is all around us and we do not understand"

— Thomas Merton.

116 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:21:42pm

re: #95 nikis-knight

You know, in all honesty, I think my opposing calling democrats fascist, other than the fact that one word rebuttals and name-calling is a stiffling of discourse, is purely tactical, based on the fact that people overwhlemingly, and understandably, associate fascism with nazi death camps.

But fascism, at it's core, is everything in/for the state, nothing outside the state. Not in a purely racial way, even, just that Big Brother should make all the decisions, not the millions of individuals. This is why it is inextricably linked to socialism, even when squabbling with communists or other socialist groups.

And this is the direction that the democratic party is taking the country, I think, sadly. But as pointed out in the aforementioned Liberal Fascism, we have been on that road before.

Agreed and I in no way am hinting at anything "nazi" about this "big brother, redistribution of wealth, unions for all type of government".

117 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:21:58pm

re: #111 whiterasta

I have acquaintance of a couple in the UK. They have 3 kids, all of whom have severe genetic problems.

It turns out they are uncle and niece. Blood uncle and niece.

I wanted to run out of the room and throw up when I found out.

Incidentally, they are not members of a certain Religion of Peace.

Just your run of the mill, trashy inbreeders.

He has not worked for 20 years and they are housed clothed, etc by the British taxpayers.

One of the joys of of socialism.

118 Dave the.....  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:22:16pm
Are there any arguments from gay marriage advocates that can't also be used to support polygamy?

That's next. Yes. You just can't say that in public yet.

119 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:22:29pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Finally, Spiders in space!
Spiders spin webs in space

A similar experiment was conducted on the third Skylab mission in 1973. AIR, the orb-weaving spiders ended up with webs that looked like the result of eating a few too many flies "fattened up" on fermented berries.

Apparently spiders are affected by microgravity much like humans are- they may not have inner ears, but they seem to have something else that acts like a "gyro" to orient themselves with, and microgravity quite thoroughly "tumbles" it.

cheers

eon

120 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:22:52pm

re: #112 monkeytime

There is no possible way I could be more boring. I'm sitting here watching the Space Shuttle which doesn't take off for 9 minutes - RIVITING!
I need a drink.


Got a link to a site streaming video? I didn't think the launch was till 7:55 mate!

121 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:22:58pm

re: #102 Shug

My experiment would be to see how they splatter in zero gravity when hit by my shoe

I wonder if spiders explode if pushed out into the vacuum of space.

122 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:23:14pm

re: #112 monkeytime

There is no possible way I could be more boring. I'm sitting here watching the Space Shuttle which doesn't take off for 9 minutes - RIVITING!
I need a drink.

I can usually see it from my house. Look like a small glowing orange orb shooting into space.

123 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:23:14pm

re: #101 Yashmak

As I already explained in #12, I clarified my poorly worded, and excessively inflammatory initial comment in #3. I also indicated I meant you no slight. Is that not enough?

Were good. I just overreact sometimes.

124 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:23:16pm

re: #110 bosforus

Friday night, party night. By the way, just got back from the new Bond movie. Meh, about average.

I'm not surprised at that. I haven't given Hollyweird a dime since "Independence Day" premiered in Calgary many moons ago.

BTW - your nic's cute but I have to confess that The Bumble caused me many, many nightmares as a child.

125 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:23:19pm

re: #113 ArmyWife

I am sitting in Chicago at the airport waiting to get back to Baltimore. Its packed here.

Sorry to hear that. O'hare or Midway? On Fridays they are both pretty much hell holes, especially if the weather is bad. Has TSA improved their performance?

Wish you well in your travels.

126 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:23:43pm

re: #122 bellamags

I can usually see it from my house. Looks like a small glowing orange orb shooting into space.

fixed

127 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:23:45pm

re: #120 LoFlyer

Got a link to a site streaming video? I didn't think the launch was till 7:55 mate!

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

a guy just drank reprocessed urine.

I've been watching it for 2 hours

128 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:24:02pm

re: #97 Dianna

Eugenics revolted me once I understood it. But - like a lot of science fiction readers - the actuality of what the notion of "human improvement" would result in took a while to sink in.

Eugenics, in actual real-world practice, is inevitably doomed to fail. First of all, because genetic traits are often recessive and will not manifest until future generations when two people both with the same recessive gene have a baby. So in some fascistic eugenics nightmare scenario, if a government killed literally every mentally disabled and physically disabled person in the country, 50 years hence there would still be nearly as many as there are now, because they'd continue to be born to apparently "normal" adults.

As for racist-tinged eugenics, that will inevitably fail as well, because of evolutionary "sexual selection" behaviors in which people are often exogynous -- in other words, people are sexually attracted to "the other." They often find people of different races/ethnicities/cultures fascinating. Doesn't matter which race/ethnicity you are -- the tendency is always there. So that, barring the complete extirpation of all races but one, the future will always bring more inter-race coupling and babies. No way to stop it. Which must make the racists boil with anger.

129 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:24:04pm

I dunno what "fascism" is, but I know what the Nazis were. The problem is including anything that is nucking futz as a partial definition of "fascism", leeches all the meaning out of it immediately. After all, the origin of it as we-are-all-in-things-together, the fascia of the bundle of wheat, doesn't really seem evil in itself. Jonah Goldberg reviewed this all pretty well in his book, as was his conclusion, that in modern times, fascism is what you see your opponent doing that you don't like.

130 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:24:04pm

re: #115 Ojoe

The shadows of evening lengthen across the San Gabriel Mountains of California. The Towercam, Pacific time zone.

Natural beauty, Rx for stupid political movements.

"Paradise is all around us and we do not understand"

— Thomas Merton.

Thanks, always enjoy that.

From yesterday's local newspaper:
[Link: www.pasadenastarnews.com...]

131 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:24:34pm

re: #120 LoFlyer

Sorry - I misunderstood - it's 23 minutes until launch they just said. I'll look for a link.

132 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:24:42pm

re: #125 Perplexed

O'Hare. This will teach me to book late and not get direct.

133 Dianna  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:24:53pm

re: #113 ArmyWife

I hope you have a good flight, and get home easily.

134 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:25:04pm

re: #117 bellamags

One of the joys of of socialism.

Arrr, thanks for the pic! I loved Noams version! Can't find 'me interface cord for 'me camera, I will continue searching!

135 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:25:06pm

re: #124 Miss Trixie

BTW - your nic's cute but I have to confess that The Bumble caused me many, many nightmares as a child.

Don't feel too ashamed. You're the third person to tell me that in a week. :)

136 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:25:06pm

re: #112 monkeytime

There is no possible way I could be more boring. I'm sitting here watching the Space Shuttle which doesn't take off for 9 minutes - RIVITING!
I need a drink.

How exciting! I'd LOVE to see that! :D

137 guftafs  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:25:38pm

Nice checklist.

138 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:01pm

re: #134 LoFlyer

Arrr, thanks for the pic! I loved Noams version! Can't find 'me interface cord for 'me camera, I will continue searching!

Yes. That pic was hilarious. It fit real well!

139 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:02pm

re: #132 ArmyWife

O'Hare. This will teach me to book late and not get direct.

Never, ever get a connecting flight through O'hare on a Friday if you can possibly avoid it.

140 Yashmak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:12pm

re: #105 calcajun

No need to be nasty. I agree with you. I just worded my #1 post badly. I can already tell it's going to haunt me as long as this topic is live.

Such is life.

Have a nice weekend folks!

141 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:23pm

re: #134 LoFlyer

Arrr, thanks for the pic! I loved Noams version! Can't find 'me interface cord for 'me camera, I will continue searching!

Is it "pirate talk" day today?

142 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:33pm

re: #121 Soona'

I wonder if spiders explode if pushed out into the vacuum of space.

No, but they would probably shrivel up and die pretty quick as all the liquid in their little bodies evaporated rapidly.

Heinlein described the process in his short story "Misfit" in 1943. Except in that case, it was used as an impromptu method of dry-cleaning flight jumpsuits.

cheers

eon

143 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:38pm

re: #118 Dave the...

That's next. Yes. You just can't say that in public yet.

I can and will. Make them defend polygamy at their own risk.

144 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:26:45pm

re: #133 Dianna

Thanks. I am sure it will go fine.

145 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:27:27pm

re: #139 Perplexed

Never, ever get a connecting flight through O'hare on a Friday if you can possibly avoid it.

Avoiding O'Hare will add years to one's life...

146 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:27:37pm

re: #135 bosforus

Don't feel too ashamed. You're the third person to tell me that in a week. :)

Haha!

*snicker* :D

147 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:27:39pm

re: #127 Shug

Yea I saw that urine thing. It kind of blows. Maybe thats why they mix all that tang in it. I think I would rather mix it with vodka.

148 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:27:49pm

re: #130 Pvt Bin Jammin

Excellent link to the Pasadena Star News. Good video therein.
Thanks !

There you see some real religious reverence on the questions of the cosmos.

It's in real science you find the real reverence.

149 cincinnati_kid37  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:27:54pm

re: #9 VegasRick

Hell, the whole demonrat party!

How about All Liberals

150 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:28:02pm

re: #141 VegasRick

Is it "pirate talk" day today?

For LoFlyer, it's "talk like a pirate day", every day.

151 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:28:15pm

re: #149 cincinnati_kid37

How about All Liberals

Better!

152 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:28:26pm

Others have observed this before me, but the congruence of these fascist traits with those of today's resurgent militant Islam is stunning.

And the blindness of those anti-jihadists who would make alliances with the one in order to defeat the other is beyond ironic. It's incredible.

Most disturbing of all are members of the Jewish community who, in their justifiable fear of vitriolic Muslim hatred, seek a marriage of convenience with people who, if they once managed to crush the jihad, would immediately turn around and strangle them.

Yes, Pamela, I'm talking about you.

153 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:29:01pm

re: #151 VegasRick

Do we have a picture of a photoshopped demon-rat? I need a visual aid.

154 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:29:10pm

re: #127 Shug

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

a guy just drank reprocessed urine.

I've been watching it for 2 hours

Thanks, mate I was wondering if you were going to send me to some pervert site!

155 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:29:14pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

For LoFlyer, it's "talk like a pirate day", every day.

Thanks matey!

156 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:29:35pm

re: #148 Ojoe

It's in real science you find the real reverence.
Indeed.

I'll have to look at the video. Just read the article yesterday and thought of you. Thanks for pointing it out.

157 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:29:54pm

re: #91 Throbert McGee

Correction, zombie: the fascination with ancient Greece and Rome was always a part of American culture, from our country's founding -- it was only after WWII that the fasces was tainted by association with Mussolini. (There are fasces all over Washington, DC, in pre-WWII architecture and monuments.)

The eagle, the bundle of arrows, the sheaf of wheat. It's on the real seal, not the O seal.

158 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:29:57pm

re: #145 experiencedtraveller

Avoiding O'Hare will add years to one's life...

ROTFLMAO

All too true. I would rather drive to Chicago (6 hrs) than fly (3 hrs).

159 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:30:26pm
160 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:30:44pm

re: #153 bellamags

Do we have a picture of a photoshopped demon-rat? I need a visual aid.

Google Al Franken.

161 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:30:50pm

re: #141 VegasRick

Is it "pirate talk" day today?

I can tone it down if you wish, mate!

162 Dianna  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:31:23pm

re: #128 zombie

Yes, zombie.

To say nothing of the fact that, in reality, there's more variation between a pomeranian and a wolfhound than there is among all human beings anywhere.

"Improvement" will never mean anything innocuous.

163 Dave the.....  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:31:33pm

It's one thing to oppose and try to silience someone who has an opposing view.

I always viewed fascism as carrying that one step further and forcing someone to openly support your political viewpoints. So you have left wing pressure groups on college campus' that want the administration to make a statement supporting their views.

164 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:31:44pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Finally, Spiders in space!
Spiders spin webs in space


It's Friday night, are we drinking yet?

165 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:31:56pm

re: #128 zombie

With this in mind, what is the reason for inter-racial couples not being more prevalent? Society not accepting this? I do think the lack of acceptance is shrinking (thankfully) which has increased the number of inter-racial couples (based on personal observation only), but it would seem there wouldn't be such taboo if it was normal to be attracted to "the other".

166 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:00pm

re: #160 Perplexed

Google Al Franken.

HA! I don't even have an accurate descriptive word for that as*hole.

167 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:01pm

Short version of the above: That's why they call it "Islamofascism".

168 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:13pm

re: #159 Miss Trixie

Damn! and I've been waiting for lift off all this time!
Anyone got a GIANT can of Raid?

169 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:19pm

re: #153 bellamags

Do we have a picture of a photoshopped demon-rat? I need a visual aid.

[Link: lolrats.blogspot.com...]

170 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:25pm

re: #164 Thanos

It's Friday night, are we drinking yet?

No, but the spiders are off on a toot, I suspect.

cheers

eon

171 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:32pm

BTW - new nic ... :D

172 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:32:43pm
173 JHW  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:33:27pm

I got a copy of the book after Sharmuta recommended it to me, Amazon had several used copies and I managed to get one for less than $5 in very nice condition. Haven't done more than started it just yet, my reading list is pretty long right now. Just glanced through a few days ago though and this on page 202 this caught my eye concerning his thoughts and guesses what American style fascism would look like if it ever developed.

Of course the United States would have to suffer catastrophic setbacks and polarization for these fringe groups to find powerful allies and enter the mainstream. I half expected to see emerge after 1968 a movement of national reunification, regeneration, and purification directed against hirsute antiwar protesters, black radicals, and "degenerate" artists. I thought that some of the Vietnam veterans might form analogs to the Freikorps of 1919 Germany or the Italian Arditi and attack the youths whose demonstration on the steps of the Pentagon had "stabbed them in the back."Fortunately, I was wrong.

page 202

Yes, fortunately, but more to the point this immensely saddened me. To his credit although he thought there was a chance of this at that time he didn't voice it and slur the veterans. Are academics so divorced from the class and social strata that produced the Vietnam veterans ( good Americans all, just as good as college students and professors) that they could even for a micro-second have thought that a stormtrooper movement could have arose among them?

I don't blame him so much but this saddened the hell out of me, are the social disconnects really that huge? I know for myself, and everyone else among the vets I knew politics was the very last thing I wanted to hear about on return from that place. That became the game of choice for the ambitious and unscrupulous and the posers as shown by a certain Massachusetts ex-Naval officer and his poser cronies doing the stabbing in the back and they weren't fascists but used some of their unscrupulous tactics.

I'm not trying to diss the book and fully intend studying it closely but damn, damn , damn, it is sure painful after all these years to still be the villains in some peoples minds, enough so that fears of fascism from them could arise, for serving honorably in that shitty war.

174 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:33:30pm

re: #159 Miss Trixie

Giant Spider Attacks Space Shuttle!

Bwahahaha! 1950's B-movie's are making a comeback I tell ya!

175 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:33:30pm

re: #169 VegasRick

[Link: lolrats.blogspot.com...]

Jeez. That was great. Now I can visualize. Pasty and dirty with little beady red eyes, fleshy pink fingers. Perfect. (gag)

176 guftafs  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:33:31pm

re: #20 zombie

Founding Fathers were very interested in the history of the Roman Republic, for instance, drawing conclusions from it, like their explicit intent to create a republic, and not a democracy.

177 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:07pm

re: #171 Miss Trixie

BTW - new nic ... :D

That avatar looks like my Chihuahua, Luigi! too cute.

178 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:26pm

re: #166 bellamags

HA! I don't even have an accurate descriptive word for that as*hole.

What really pisses me off is that the socialists are stealing this race from Coleman in favor of their "token idiot" Al Franken!

179 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:29pm

re: #165 ArmyWife

I have known some inter racial couples, they get extra flak from outside unfortunately.

But God bless them.

180 Dianna  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:34pm

Goodnight, people!

181 HoosierHoops  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:35pm

re: #171 Miss Trixie

BTW - new nic ... :D

Kind of liked the last one..Sorry
still love the hoopster?

182 RememberSekhmet?  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:54pm

For our snarky atheist:

There's a reason fascism has a perverted resemblance to religion. It seeks to supplant religion with the worship of the state itself.

183 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:56pm

re: #161 LoFlyer

I can tone it down if you wish, mate!

Don't do that I like it! I was thinking of doing the same kind of thing only different "yous guyz talkin ta meee"

184 Intrepid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:34:57pm

re: #159 Miss Trixie

Giant Spider Attacks Space Shuttle!

Eeek! That reminds me of that B-grade horror flick back in the 50's/60's in which an atomically-souped up giant tarantula terrorized several desert towns!

Poor Leo B Carroll was the scientist who messed up in that one. He seemed to be in more than a few of those "atomically souped up insect eats towns folk" flicks back then.

185 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:35:21pm

Great, flight over sold. Arggghhh. I suppose if we are to improve the gene pool we can just count me right out. ;)

186 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:35:33pm

re: #178 LoFlyer

What really pisses me off is that the socialists are stealing this race from Coleman in favor of their "token idiot" Al Franken!

I know. I can't believe this is happening. What a frikin joke.

188 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:35:37pm

Zombie - glad to see you back here posting. Hope all is well.

189 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:35:41pm

re: #172 Ojoe

Thanks. I've been to the war museum down there in So. Pasadena but not this. Will have to check it out.

190 Intrepid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:35:48pm

re: #164 Thanos

It's Friday night, are we drinking yet?

*raises hand, waves cheerfully!*

191 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:36:33pm

re: #177 bellamags

I have two chihuahuas. Everybody on here is sick of hearing about them, but they are so very super cute. Except LT. He would want you to know he is 8 pounds of terrorizing scariness.

192 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:36:38pm

re: #179 Ojoe

I have known some inter racial couples, they get extra flak from outside unfortunately.

But God bless them.

My sister (white) dated a black man for a while in high school. He was an awesome guy. Turned down an "affirmative action" scholarship on principle.

193 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:36:42pm

re: #165 ArmyWife

With this in mind, what is the reason for inter-racial couples not being more prevalent? Society not accepting this? I do think the lack of acceptance is shrinking (thankfully) which has increased the number of inter-racial couples (based on personal observation only), but it would seem there wouldn't be such taboo if it was normal to be attracted to "the other".

My first wife was Korean. I am Caucasian. Did we get dirty looks? Yep and I ignored them. Were we shunned by others? Yep and I ignored them. Pretty much knew that it was going to be hard (1974) when we returned to the states as the laws barring interracial marriages had only been recently banned as being unconstitutional.

We dealt with it. Our kids dealt with it. We didn't like it at all though.

194 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:36:46pm

re: #164 Thanos

It's Friday night, are we drinking yet?

Not all of us, but Yochanan appeared to be drinking heavily earlier.

195 HoosierHoops  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:36:48pm

re: #185 ArmyWife

Great, flight over sold. Arggghhh. I suppose if we are to improve the gene pool we can just count me right out. ;)

gak! I could tell you some stories..but you don't need that right now..

196 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:37:07pm

re: #159 Miss Trixie

Giant Spider Attacks Space Shuttle!

I had the same thing happen at an airshow with my 35mm camera.

Everybody around me thought I was nuts when I (without thinking) yelled, "Get off my lens, you little dork!"

cheers

eon

197 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:37:07pm

re: #158 Perplexed

I usually use the 5 hour rule. If the drive is 5 hours or less I always drive. In some case I stretch that to 6 or 7 hours. Travel safe!

198 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:38:17pm

re: #170 eon

No, but the spiders are off on a toot, I suspect.

cheers

eon

You said a MOUTHFUL!

Caffeine buzz!
Lazing away in a hammock!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Jebus! I'm bawling over here!

199 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:38:26pm

re: #183 VegasRick

Don't do that I like it! I was thinking of doing the same kind of thing only different "yous guyz talkin ta meee"


Haar! a Brooklyn gangster and a pirate talking on the same site! We can't lose mate, we are brothers in arms!

200 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:38:38pm

re: #191 ArmyWife

I have two chihuahuas. Everybody on here is sick of hearing about them, but they are so very super cute. Except LT. He would want you to know he is 8 pounds of terrorizing scariness.

I have a dachshund a boston and a chi chi. (see my avatar). The chi is definitely a different breed of dog. You almost have to ignore them for them to respect you. Luigi is the chi and he is a sweetheart, but he also thinks he can take on a pitt bull.

201 LEGION  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:39:04pm

What is Fascism? Just watch the bo and the demonrats in action the next two years. Textbook examples.

202 Pastorius  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:39:07pm

I couldn't be the first person to say this in this thread, but I'll say it anyway, that description of fascism sounds like Barack Obama to me.

203 rightymouse  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:39:42pm

re: #182 RememberSekhmet?

For our snarky atheist:

There's a reason fascism has a perverted resemblance to religion. It seeks to supplant religion with the worship of the state itself.

Communism does the same thing. Scary stuff.

204 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:39:52pm

re: #174 bosforus

Bwahahaha! 1950's B-movie's are making a comeback I tell ya!

I love b-movies. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

*sigh*

205 HoosierHoops  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:40:47pm

re: #197 experiencedtraveller

I usually use the 5 hour rule. If the drive is 5 hours or less I always drive. In some case I stretch that to 6 or 7 hours. Travel safe!

You crack me up.. I love reading about some of your travels..and your passport rocks beside mine..but 5 hour rule?
If I'm stuck in some city..and a long drive home or exploring...
/that's why i finally like Denver and Chicago..
:)

206 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:40:52pm

re: #204 Miss Trixie

I love b-movies. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

*sigh*

I beg to differ. You ever see Battlefield Earth?

207 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:41:03pm

Time to kill?

Check out the Bugman's site...

208 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:41:13pm

T-9 and holding. Minor issue with a launch pad door...

209 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:41:19pm

some numbnuts forgot to secure some little door on the shuttle white room and it's moving around.

the NASA minds are discussing it on a non-public channel now to see
1. can they get somebody up to it fast enough, latch it, and get them away in time for launch
2. can they launch with this thing unsecure
3. will they cancel the launch.

I'll bet the non-latching person is shitting themselves

210 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:41:42pm

re: #193 Perplexed

I can imagine. I know a lot of Korean/caucasian couples. Maybe because of the Military community? It really not so odd. But then again, I've never had an issue with inter-racial couples, so maybe I am just not paying enough attention to tell if someone else does.

211 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:41:49pm

re: #197 experiencedtraveller

I usually use the 5 hour rule. If the drive is 5 hours or less I always drive. In some case I stretch that to 6 or 7 hours. Travel safe!

Always travel safe. Dealt with kamikaze deer in MPLS and snow storms out on the prairie. My personal limit is 1000 miles out if the weather is good. On the road 49 weeks out of the year doing field service.

212 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:42:08pm

re: #208 LoFlyer

T-9 and holding. Minor issue with a launch pad door...

Do you have a link? FOX and CNN took it down.

213 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:42:11pm

re: #165 ArmyWife

With this in mind, what is the reason for inter-racial couples not being more prevalent? Society not accepting this? I do think the lack of acceptance is shrinking (thankfully) which has increased the number of inter-racial couples (based on personal observation only), but it would seem there wouldn't be such taboo if it was normal to be attracted to "the other".

I take it you don't live near a major California university! Inter-racial couples are actually the norm these days, seemingly more common than same-race couples. At places like UCLA and UC Berkeley, which are about half Asian and half "white," proportion-wise, couples rarely seem to be the same race these days. I think what has prevented it in the past was mostly de facto social segregation -- one didn't have much access to people of other races. But put a bunch of college-age kids of different races together, and ain't nothing gonna keep them apart.

214 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:42:34pm

re: #212 VegasRick

Do you have a link? FOX and CNN took it down.

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

215 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:02pm

re: #214 Shug

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

Thanks!

216 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:07pm

re: #181 HoosierHoops

Kind of liked the last one..Sorry
still love the hoopster?

Yup. *mwah*

/Surrepticiously checks over her shoulder to see if realwest is around ...

:P

217 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:26pm

re: #198 Miss Trixie

You said a MOUTHFUL!

Caffeine buzz!
Lazing away in a hammock!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Jebus! I'm bawling over here!

Ow. OwowowowOW.

I thought it was the real thing until the bit about the restraining order.

Classic.

cheers

eon

218 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:27pm

re: #210 ArmyWife

I can imagine. I know a lot of Korean/caucasian couples. Maybe because of the Military community? It really not so odd. But then again, I've never had an issue with inter-racial couples, so maybe I am just not paying enough attention to tell if someone else does.

Interracial couples are quite common here in Louisiana. No one pays any mind.

219 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:29pm

re: #209 Shug

This might make for a bad day at the office!

220 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:53pm
* the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny;

Hank Paulson!

221 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:43:58pm

re: #188 karmic_inquisitor

Zombie - glad to see you back here posting. Hope all is well.

All is well. Just took a break for a while.

222 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:08pm

re: #128 zombie

Eugenics, in actual real-world practice, is inevitably doomed to fail.

Just to be clear you do think there are other reasons, like maybe moral ones, to oppose eugenics? Opposing something like eugenics simply because it's doomed to failure normally eventually lead to calls for putting more effort into the endeavor next time or a leader promising a better plan for success.

223 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:09pm

re: #212 VegasRick

Do you have a link? FOX and CNN took it down.

Here you go mate, keep following the live TV links.

224 Perplexed  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:11pm

re: #210 ArmyWife

I can imagine. I know a lot of Korean/caucasian couples. Maybe because of the Military community? It really not so odd. But then again, I've never had an issue with inter-racial couples, so maybe I am just not paying enough attention to tell if someone else does.

It is the military community. Going into a semi-rural suburb of Dallas during the mid 70's was interesting. Ran into Korean War vets who absolutely wanted nothing to do with any Koreans. Ran into racists who absolutely hated non-whites.

225 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:11pm

re: #221 zombie

All is well. Just took a break for a while.

I've noticed you tend to do that from time to time. I'm glad you've always come back!

226 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:22pm

re: #214 Shug

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

Do you think thats a good idea to take off with the door unlatched? This is going to be kinda scary.

227 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:44pm

re: #206 bosforus

I beg to differ. You ever see Battlefield Earth?

No. No, I haven't - any good/bad?

228 Pastorius  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:49pm

The one part I don't get is why does the "chief" have to be male.

Such a distinction as part of a definition only serves to obscure the recognition of future mutations of fascism.

229 eon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:45:55pm

Well, I have to call it a night. Early morning tomorrow.

Good night, Lizards.

Sleep well.

cheers

eon

230 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:46:03pm

re: #213 zombie

Nope! I live in the Baltimore/Washington Metro area. I have seen an increase - most especially in the military community (along with asian/white, but black/white and others). I wouldn't say it is a 50/50 split though.

231 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:46:13pm

re: #226 bellamags

They're a GO

fingers crossed

232 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:46:27pm

re: #208 LoFlyer

T-9 and holding. Minor issue with a launch pad door...

Some technician taking an extended dump.

233 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:46:45pm

re: #226 bellamags

Do you think thats a good idea to take off with the door unlatched? This is going to be kinda scary.

It's not going to hurt the shuttle, just some guard rails around the door mate!

234 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:46:51pm

re: #222 Neo Con since 9-11

Just to be clear you do think there are other reasons, like maybe moral ones, to oppose eugenics? Opposing something like eugenics simply because it's doomed to failure normally eventually lead to calls for putting more effort into the endeavor next time or a leader promising a better plan for success.

No, of COURSE I oppose genetics. Sheesh. That's why i called it a "nightmare scenario." I think the people who promote eugenics know it is futile, but promote it anyway as a way of killing off their political opponents.

235 Intrepid  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:47:04pm

re: #208 LoFlyer

T-9 and holding. Minor issue with a launch pad door...

HAL?

236 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:47:07pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Finally, Spiders in space!
Spiders spin webs in space

/Spiders On Drugs

237 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:47:26pm

re: #231 Shug

re: #233 LoFlyer

How much longer before lift -off?

238 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:47:39pm

Go spiders go!

239 Shug  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:47:39pm

T minus 8:55

240 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:47:43pm

nine minutes.

241 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:48:02pm

re: #235 Intrepid

HAL?


Haaar! Fire phasers!

242 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:48:13pm

I am going to run outside right after lift - off to watch.

243 LesLein  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:48:14pm

Many on the left are calling for a "New New Deal." Here's what the late distinguished liberal historian John Garraty (an admirer of FDR and the New Deal) wrote about the National Industrial Recovery Act in his standard college textbook:

"[It] was also similar to experiments being carried out by the fascist dictator Benito Mussolini in Italy and by the Nazis in Adolf Hitler's Germany. It did not, of course, turn America into a fascist state, but it did herald an increasing concentration of economic power in the hands of interest groups, both industrialists' organizations and labor unions."

The chilling thing about Jonah Goldberg's book is that many aspects of fascism are popular. The book provides a preview of the next 4 years. It also provides some talking points the next time someone on the left says conservatives are fascists.

See the link for a little more background on Garraty, the New Deal, and fascism.

[Link: liberalfascism.nationalreview.com...]

244 VegasRick  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:48:40pm

re: #223 LoFlyer

Here you go mate, keep following the live TV links.

Thanks. This is really cool!

245 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:48:50pm

This kinda reminds me of Close Encounters.

246 Pastorius  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:49:10pm

#213 Zombie,
My wife and I live near a California University. We are an inter-racial couple.

When we got married 20 years ago, we were rare. Now, there are many of us.

247 nyc redneck  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:49:14pm

is anybody else having problems w/ this.:
"the need for authority by natural chiefs (always MALE)". . .

248 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:49:21pm

Check out that swinging door on the shuttle - wow.

249 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:49:24pm

re: #242 bellamags

I am going to run outside right after lift - off to watch.

You 'de wo-man mate!

250 ArmyWife  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:50:16pm

Ok, I am getting ready to board. Wish the spiders well on the next thread!

251 Pastorius  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:50:20pm

Zombie just said he opposes "genetics".

LOL

252 bellamags  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:50:29pm

re: #247 nyc redneck

is anybody else having problems w/ this.:
"the need for authority by natural chiefs (always MALE)". . .

YES.

253 HoosierHoops  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:50:44pm

re: #216 Miss Trixie

Yup. *mwah*

/Surrepticiously checks over her shoulder to see if realwest is around ...

:P


LOL
Hope tonight finds you well..

254 Pastorius  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:51:17pm

#247 NYC Redneck,
Yes, I think that male distinction is very very weak.

255 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:51:22pm

re: #236 Killian Bundy

/Spiders On Drugs

/nevermind, I see I've been beaten to it

256 bosforus  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:51:39pm

re: #227 Miss Trixie

No. No, I haven't - any good/bad?

Well, if you can properly enjoy watching bad movies, which it sounds like you can, I'll give you this little glimpse into Battlefield Earth.
Cavemen teach themselves to fly fighter planes
If that's not enough, John Travolta plays an alien and the human race is enslaved to mine gold. Granted, the production quality's a little better than the 50's but it's sure to go down in the annals of awful b-movies.
2.3/10 on imdb.

257 The Other Les  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:52:20pm

re: #13 nikis-knight

I don't really want us to start throwing the word fascist at political foes, just because every Dem has so debased the word with regard to the republican party.

Fascism in the original sense of the word is dead. It will be a cold day in Hell before any modern statist puts on a silly uniform again.

258 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:52:29pm

T minutes 3 minutes!

259 nyc redneck  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:53:12pm

re: #252 bellamags

YES.

they are always male. look at history.
it is really a might makes right kind of mentality. brute force.
fascism is not good for gals.

260 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:53:55pm

Sorry - meant T minus 3 minutes.
Of course - now it is 2 minutes.
one more drink and I won't notice typos.

261 Soona'  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:54:19pm

Well folks, I'm off to a diving vacation in sunny, warm Cozumel. See y'all in a week.

262 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:54:52pm

re: #234 zombie

Thanks that's what I figured. Just wanted the clarification.

263 rightymouse  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:55:13pm

re: #247 nyc redneck

is anybody else having problems w/ this.:
"the need for authority by natural chiefs (always MALE)". . .

Yep. That whole male dominance thingy ain't my cup of tea & it's so silly, really. My hunk of burning love alpha male hubby can turn into the most agreeable person with "THE LOOK" when his high-horse is rocking out of control.

264 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:55:27pm

This is going to be great mates, wish I was on board!

265 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:55:36pm

re: #261 Soona'

Well folks, I'm off to a diving vacation in sunny, warm Cozumel. See y'all in a week.

Enjoy! If you are there more than three days, drink the water but swallow instead of spit when you brush your teeth once a day. If you are there less than three days, don't drink the water.

266 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:56:14pm

One of Paxton's points about fascism is it's need to have space to occupy. Fascism found that space in Italy and germany because of the governments' inability to deal with the needs of the people- very much like what we're seeing now in europe. As the powers that be today are ignoring the problems of the people, especially ignoring the problems of immigrant assimilation, fascist parties are once again find space in which to operate. But as the saying goes, history repeats itself.

267 Miss Trixie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:56:52pm

re: #256 bosforus

Well, if you can properly enjoy watching bad movies, which it sounds like you can, I'll give you this little glimpse into Battlefield Earth.
Cavemen teach themselves to fly fighter planes
If that's not enough, John Travolta plays an alien and the human race is enslaved to mine gold. Granted, the production quality's a little better than the 50's but it's sure to go down in the annals of awful b-movies.
2.3/10 on imdb.

*blink*blink* =O

Wha?

I have GOT to get that movie! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

268 monkeytime  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:57:09pm

LIFT OFF! ALT 5 Miles - 1500 MPH AWESOME!

269 David Simon  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:59:15pm

re: #265 Thanos

Enjoy! If you are there more than three days, drink the water but swallow instead of spit when you brush your teeth once a day. If you are there less than three days, don't drink the water.

Cozumel is on the east coast. I've never had "Montezuma's Revenge" there. (Unlike the west coast, which, every time I've been there, leads to a day spent on the toilet.)

270 LoFlyer  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:59:40pm

SRB sep! It's all downhill now!

271 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:00:38pm

re: #128 zombie


So that, barring the complete extirpation of all races but one, the future will always bring more inter-race coupling and babies. No way to stop it. Which must make the racists boil with anger.

It can also drive Lefties crazy too. Nearly everyone in my large circle of friends are white Leftwing Democrats with four noticable exceptions, myself, my Asian wife and a long time friend and his black wife. And out of all our mutual friends, the four of us are the only ones that I know of who voted for John McCain.

And let me tell you, it drives 'em nuts that our non-white wives would vote Republican. They try not to be rude but they can't hide their befuddlement. My wife has even had friends explain to her privately that just because I am a Republican that it doesn't mean that she has to vote Republican too (you know Asian women do what ever their husbands tell them). She delights in telling them that she was a Republican before I was.

It makes them cross-eyed.

272 RememberSekhmet?  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:00:46pm

My dad's family, as I do the genealogical research, seems to have a lot of ancestors who disappear before 1800 or so. Plus there's tales we are Cherokee. So it turns out there was a large group of Cherokee who lived in East Texas, until Mirabeau Lamar tried to send them to Oklahoma. However, many Cherokee decided that the burden fell on the whites to prove they weren't white. In fact, many of them in the 1840 census told the census-taker they were white.

Which makes me a product of interracial dating.

273 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:02:48pm

re: #205 HoosierHoops

Hey Hoops! Here's one for ya when I violated my own rules!

Just a few weeks ago I found myself ripping through the Carpathian Mountains of the eastern Czech Republic in a rented Skoda heading towards Brno. Before I started that morning I checked the mileage and estimated it would take me 5 hours. So... you know the rest... The roads were 2 lanes; no tunnels through the mountains; serious serpentine and blind curve passing of lumbering trucks. After about 8 hours of intense white knuckle driving I reached the airport with 20 minutes to spare.

Darn shame too... Moravia really seemed like beautiful country. Lots of old, small towns and hills and streams.

274 rightymouse  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:05:09pm

re: #267 Miss Trixie

*blink*blink* =O

Wha?

I have GOT to get that movie! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!


HI HONEY!

"Battlefield Earth" rates among these movies. Ok - maybe I'm being too harsh. lol!

275 zombie  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:12:46pm

re: #234 zombie

No, of COURSE I oppose genetics.

re: #251 Pastorius

Zombie just said he opposes "genetics".

LOL

Ooops!

See, I'm rusty. I meant to say:

"...of COURSE I oppose eugenics."

D'oh!

276 Wishing  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:15:14pm

re: #127 Shug

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

a guy just drank reprocessed urine.

I've been watching it for 2 hours

That takes *streaming* video to new lows.

277 Nemesis6  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:25:07pm

Guys, don't mention Battlefield Earth, the Scientologists will find out who you are and put dead cats in your mailboxes and start following you! :/

Nevertheless, I might "acquire" this movie just to see how bad it is.

278 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:32:27pm

re: #275 zombie

Ooops!

See, I'm rusty. I meant to say:

"...of COURSE I oppose eugenics."

D'oh!

The people who oppose genetics are all in the 'Mysteries of the Genome' thread, or the 'Anti-Museum' thread.

No, I'm not kidding.

279 rightymouse  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:43:32pm

re: #277 Nemesis6

Guys, don't mention Battlefield Earth, the Scientologists will find out who you are and put dead cats in your mailboxes and start following you! :/

Nevertheless, I might "acquire" this movie just to see how bad it is.

What may be fun is to have an evening with significant other and friends to watch really, really bad movies like Battlefield Earth. Lots of popcorn, munchies and alcohol. That kind of thing.

280 Steffan  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:53:51pm

re: #277 Nemesis6

Guys, don't mention Battlefield Earth, the Scientologists will find out who you are and put dead cats in your mailboxes and start following you! :/

Nevertheless, I might "acquire" this movie just to see how bad it is.

Their world headquarters and propaganda mill (Golden Era Studios) is about five miles from where I live. It's in Gilman Hot Springs, north of San Jacinto, CA.

They're actually good neighbors, once you get used to seeing everybody wearing sailor uniforms.

281 hazzyday  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 5:59:44pm

I took to the lesson of the dime in my youth. Someone explained to me that one stick could be broken easily. And that the bundle could not. I thought it was valuable but I don't think I have applied it much. Too much an individualist.

282 medaura18586  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:01:05pm

re: #45 Charles

Notice this point:

Exactly describes the sort of vicious, highly personal and sleazy attacks that were launched at me, as soon as I voiced the mildest of criticisms of the 'anti-jihad' alliance with VB and other Eurofascists.

That quote actually evoked the whole-sale demonization of Muslims I have seen used by these groups. They are the victims, they are under threat,... some deluded Eurasia fantasies, and wet dreams about mass deportations, demographic battles, apocalyptic scenarios, etc.

283 Kyle_st  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:13:43pm

Wow! Charles's list reads like the core tenets of modern Liberalism!

284 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:15:33pm

re: #283 Kyle_st

Wow! Charles's list reads like the core tenets of modern Liberalism!

That's a different book.

285 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:23:20pm

Only the strong can be gentle.

286 louis  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:26:24pm

It sounds a lot like Obama's crowd. Be afraid, be very afraid. . .

287 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:26:39pm

re: #218 reine.de.tout

Interracial couples are quite common here in Louisiana. No one pays any mind.

'Tis real progress, that.

288 Abu Lahab  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:38:07pm

Here is an article on VB from "The Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and Racism".
Although nothing there is practically new, it's just a reminder of the real face of VB.
There is a damage being done to the anti-jihad camp through allies like the VB. I believe that many Islamic dissents, moderates and others who simply don't want to have any association with an ally like the VB will simply stay away.

289 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:38:09pm
290 dak  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 6:56:49pm

It is an interesting question, seeking a definition.

Fascism is Socialism that substitutes Nationalism for Class warfare of the traditional Socialism. Mussolini believed that "workers if the world" have little in common. Italians have a lot more in common than random workers of the world. Mussolini is the brains of Facism, he was a dyed in the wool Socialist, like his dad. He invented Facism.

Nazism, is Facism with a "racial compoment". IE everything is the Jew's fault. Mussolini did not have racism as a component of original facism. Facism does not equal Nazim.

Nazism and Facism are left-wing ideology. Take the racism out of the equation, and a regular solial-democrat platform is indistinguishable from a FACIST platform. Heath care, entitlements for veterans, eugenics, care of the elderly, etc. Fascim promotes ACTION. Violence if its needed. And it usually is. Or like, getting involved socially. Getting in people's face, like somebody said not too long ago.

The "reasonable limits on free speech, assembly" etc came after the Reichtach fire. Hitler did not seize power and make this up. He merely invoqued article 48 (?) of an illiberal constitution that allowed for the government to so this stuff in case of crisis. All of it legal.

So, to answer the question: Facism is Socialism that substitute nationalism for class warfare. Another take on it is to substitute race for class. Like Reverend Wright. (Did you really think Jesus came up with this stuff?)

291 WOHBuckeye  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 7:48:54pm

Except for six, this describes nearly every left-leaning protest, environmental, animal rights and gay activist group in this country

292 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 10:02:50pm
293 aussie_dave  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 1:57:49am

Most of these points seems to apply to Global Warming Alarmists too.

294 LynnfromNZ  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 2:46:40am

re: #42 Alberta Oil Peon

Thanks for that. i mean to get it when i'm back in the states in january.

295 LynnfromNZ  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 2:48:38am

... and contrary to popular misconception, even under Mussolini the trains didn't run on time.

296 quickjustice  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 4:53:04am

re: #20 zombie

The similarities between FDR's New Deal and Mussolini's Italian Fascism are no coincidence.

If you read Amity Shlaes's "Forgotten Man: A History of the New Deal", you'll see that many of the programs of the New Deal were drawn directly from Mussolini's Italy.

297 Leonidas Hoplite  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 6:54:39am

re: #296 quickjustice

The similarities between FDR's New Deal and Mussolini's Italian Fascism are no coincidence.

If you read Amity Shlaes's "Forgotten Man: A History of the New Deal", you'll see that many of the programs of the New Deal were drawn directly from Mussolini's Italy.

Also an important read is Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism. Fascism is a pathology of the left, not of the right.

298 kansas  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 7:59:00am

I've been gone. Lot of banning. So I plug in and read the definition of fascism and immediately it sounds just like the democrats. So I think I'm on to something. Turns out that's pretty much what everyone else noticed. Well, back to Kansas, Toto.

299 rumcrook  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 8:37:14am

the global warming pushers and the obama camp have a lot on that list locked up.

the irony is they constantly cried that bush was doing these things without evidence, they do it (like going after joe the plumber with government computers to destroy him) then excuse it.

300 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 9:10:50am

#296 # 297


At FDR's death , Americans cried .

At Mussolinis death , Italians hung his corpse upside down in a public display .

In other words , very bad analogy ...which BTW is just Democrtat bashing on your parts ...mindless at best . You dont win people over to the Republican side , by pretending to be ignoramus ' .

301 eaglewingz08  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 9:11:49am

So I guess that puts to rest that Maggie Thatcher was a fascist since she was a woman and by these factors, the Chiefs are always male.
Also puts to rest McCain and Bush being fascists as McCain's second in command chief was female, and Bush's third in command chief was also a female. Yet, Obama's primary chiefs are all male and he appeals to the victimhood cults of America. Does that make him a fascist?

302 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 9:35:38am

Truth of the matter is , of all the afore-mentioned persons , only Mussolini was a fascist . Any attempt to imply that the others were , is merely mindless partisan politik-talk .

303 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 9:40:57am

re: #302 Cutty Sark

Truth of the matter is , of all the afore-mentioned persons , only Mussolini was a fascist . Any attempt to imply that the others were , is merely mindless partisan politik-talk .

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

304 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 9:57:41am

What part of what I just said is "clue-less " ? It is clear that aspersions are being cast , by comparison that FDR was a fascist .

And THAT is like saying the sheep and the wolf are the same animal ...well in the sense they both have four legs and a tail -that is all .
In otherwords a BAD comparison .And in posts #297 & # 97that is EXACTLY what is being suggested .

305 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 9:58:52am

That is #'s 296 & 297 .

306 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 1:33:26pm

OK -- you should have said that you were talking about FDR, instead of "all the aforementioned persons."

There are a lot of people mentioned in this thread who definitely are fascists.

307 strat335slinger  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 1:48:49pm

re: #49 zombie

You're right, Zombie, I just checked and they didn't post what you wrote. Funny how those who scream the loudest for "tolerance" are the one's who cannot tolerate any point of view that conflicts with theirs.

308 Cutty Sark  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 1:58:17pm

Sorry , that is why I specified #'s 296 & 297 in my post # 300. As for those you are referring to , no argument there , I have no doubts that they do infact exhibit all the symptoms of fascism .And the circumscribed cross [ I believe it's called The Celtic Cross ]has long been the preffered symbol of white supremacists . The use of it in European groups , is a warning sign of ...racist attitudes .

309 DobermanBoston  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 3:48:50pm

Has anybody here read the book? Is it mostly focused on Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, or does it also touch on more obscure fascistic regimes such as those of Metaxas, Salazar, and Franco?

310 RedVoter  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 4:03:00pm

those bullet points sound exactly like what is found in William Ayers' Prairie Fire. He ofcourse uses the more innocuous mantra of social justice.

I think I'll check this book out, looks interesting. I also like Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg.

311 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 4:26:00pm

re: #309 DobermanBoston

Has anybody here read the book? Is it mostly focused on Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, or does it also touch on more obscure fascistic regimes such as those of Metaxas, Salazar, and Franco?

I've read it - there's quite a bit about Francisco Franco, some about Salazar, but I don't remember seeing anything about Metaxas. Was he the one from the Greek Civil War?

312 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 5:01:09pm

Metaxas was the guy who led the 4th of August-regime in Greece, from 36 to 41; the Greek Civil War was later.

313 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 5:14:26pm

re: #312 oslogin

Metaxas was the guy who led the 4th of August-regime in Greece, from 36 to 41; the Greek Civil War was later.

I got the country right, anyway.

314 leeav  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 5:51:32pm

In response to Zombie's post 49:

The hypocrisy of the situation is that while African Americans were calling a vote for Obama a vote for equality and "change" (and practically equating voting otherwise as a vote against democracy), nearly 70% of African Americans voted FOR proposition 8 (meaning they opposed the right for gays to marry) - that is more than any other group (well except the Mormons, who practically sponsored the proposition). I guess equality is only a one-way street...I don't support gay marriage but I don't really care - it doesn't weaken my marriage in any way. I just find the fact that they voted against what some would consider a progressive move while framing non-Obama supporters as regressive rednecks.

315 J.S.  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 6:18:11pm

re: #89 eon

A number of years ago (hmm, might be more like a decade or so), I read a first-hand account of a scientist who attempted to continue to "do science" under the nazi regime...(the scientist was Jewish and had to eventually flee...but he kept in contact with his colleagues). They would be required to "follow orders" and on one occasion the scientist recalled all the botanists were ordered out into the fields, to look for a special flower (which purportedly possessed "magic" qualities) -- must have been somewhat amusing/surreal to see research scientists reduced to picking flowers (this was near the end of the war)...

I haven't read the Paxton text..(might pick up a copy at the library)...Another feature of fascist regimes (from intro political science texts), is a belief in a mythical past (in which the previous generations were strong, vibrant, noble, talented) -- which would then be used to contrast the current, "lowered", debilitated, abject, and sorry state...And, of course, there was then posed the "magnificent future which awaited" [another myth] if they only followed every word of the Dear Leader... (Thus, a mythological past, along with a mythological future, was posited with the single/only means to get there -- through following the Leader. Clearly, this is not "reality" oriented.)

316 Mosse  Sat, Nov 15, 2008 8:27:34pm

I agree with the list Charles provided; Roger Griffin and Stanley Payne have discussed the idea that fascism is also palingenetic -- that is, there must be a NEW man (the essence of the true believer), a NEW world (the longed-for restoration of the perceived "true and good" life), a phoenix-like re-birth and the guarantee of a future that is exclusively tailored to the projected fulfillment of the group's ideal "higher level," organic reality. A few years ago, I email exchanged with Griffin about the requirement that fascism MUST have these elements to meet the "fascist minimum" idea that he, Zeev Sternhell, and others were developing. I maintained that the nanotech/singularity/futuristic "vision" of DARPA and US films could collectively be considered an attractive, exclusionary, brutal, but "beautiful" future world ("beautiful" in the sense of "beautiful ideas that kill" from the Futurist Manifesto of the Italian fascists), thus allowing the move toward the "one world" of the EU/IMF policies to be considered formally fascist. Griffin disagreed, but it was interesting kicking it around with him, and it's still a valid question.

Here's a link to one of his books on googlebooks, examining the definitions of fascism, see from page 37 forward, particularly. It's very worthwhile reading. We are definitely in the soup, now -- the alteration of the world economic exchange, the larger role Gordon Brown guaranteed the Saudis in the "new economic world order," the securing of Obama as leader for this country -- it's all so serious and needs constant watching and analysis. We'll see how it unfolds in time, but we can use this time until Obama takes office to crank up our knowledge and our understanding of historical precedents. "It" is definitely on -- we just need to figure out what "IT" is! Take your Wheaties, all.

Here's The Nature of Fascism by Roger Griffin. Enjoy.
[Link: books.google.com...]


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