America needs the money hole!

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

A hole so deep, it goes to China

(saves on the wire transfer fees)

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

That's the paradox of the situation, the more one fills it up, the larger and in fact deeper the hole becomes...

Not to worry, mon. There is plenty more where that came from.

The taxpayers have lots of money.

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

It will then be redistributed to Peggy so she doesn't have to pay for her gas or her mortgage.

Money-hole lobby?!

ROFLMAO!

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

Nope. They burn it.

re: #3 Shug

A hole so deep, it goes to China

(saves on the wire transfer fees)

Actually, I think it makes a shallow left turn towards DC, where it dissipates and vanishes in a subterranean swamp.

If only everyone would shut their hole? We need our hole?

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

The more money Congress throws at the situation the more everyone else digs the hole deeper to get their share of the pie.

Lets keep borrowing money from China and throw it in the money hole too. YAYYYYYYYY!

re: #9 Clemente

Actually, I think it makes a shallow left turn towards DC, where it dissipates and vanishes in a subterranean swamp.

That's true. The money comes From China, in the form of an IOU.
Then it heads to the hole in Washington DC, where it disappears into Bawney Fwank's drawers

re: #12 VMA211Dan

Lets keep borrowing money from China and throw it in the money hole too. YAYYYYYYYY!

We already are using deficit financing.

How deep is a $5-Trillion Dollar hole?

As long as nobody buries an ACORN in that hole.

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

That was sarcasm for those of you who missed it.

At some point, the interest on the National Debt will exceed the ability of the taxpayers to pay it and still pay for all the current programs. When that point comes, things will turn quite ugly. At the rate things are going, that point will arrive sometime in 2009 or 2010.

This is exactly what Biden was talking about.

re: #17 logboy

That was sarcasm for those of you who missed it.

Sarcasm with way too much truth backing it up.

"If you love America, you throw money in it's hole!"

I didn't realize it was going into a money hole in New Mexico! I thought it was going down a big drain out in the middle of the ocean!

re: #9 Clemente

Actually, I think it makes a shallow left turn towards DC, where it dissipates and vanishes in a subterranean swamp.

The Senate?

re: #18 SpringheelJack

At some point, the interest on the National Debt will exceed the ability of the taxpayers to pay it and still pay for all the current programs. When that point comes, things will turn quite ugly. At the rate things are going, that point will arrive sometime in 2009 or 2010.

China won't have to defeat us militarily; just call in our deficit financing debt notes. Same goes for the Jihadis if they were to get smart about it.

re: #9 Clemente

Actually, I think it makes a shallow left turn towards DC, where it dissipates and vanishes in a subterranean swamp.

So no one knows how deep it is because it ends in a Foggy Bottom?

BHO is gonna fill the money hole up. Then he will build us the great money mountain. And everybody can have as much as they want. Oh thank you dear leader.
(wiping tear from cheek)
/

Maybe this link would be appropriate here.

This is just the beginning. Mark Levin is always citing a number of $53 trillion in unfunded enttitlement programs in the near future. We are so f*cked.

I thought the Mohole Project ended in the 60's? Or is this different than the Money Hole?

/

The problem with this video is it is too close to reality to be funny.

obama promised us we could be the money hole.
i want my gas hole money, my rent hole money,
and my unicorn.

re: #17 logboy

That was sarcasm for those of you who missed it.

I figured that, was just adding my 2 cents. You could use the sarc tag (/) to make it obvious to less perceptive lizards tho..

PS: Very cool avatar, and thank you for your service.

Can't we just print more money? ;)

Who cares? its all just "Chump Change" anyway.

It's painfully funny. Funnily painful. Agonizingly jovial.

Yes.

re: #33 logboy

Can't we just print more money? ;)

Print enough money and everyone can have a whole pie instead of just a piece.

It should be pointed out that it doesn't just sit in the hole. The hole itself is just where Tyrannosaurus Debt feeds.

Rats. Video won't play for me.

re: #23 VegasRick

The Senate?

It's not just the Senate, it's the 'hole' of congress.

UAW leader says no more concessions from workers

Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said Saturday that workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

So, bend over and fork out $6 billion directly to the UAW pension fund. Then, add another $44 billion to tide Detroit automakers over for the next year while they don't sell crappy cars that no one wants to buy.

/nevermind that Honda and Toyota turn a profit manufacturing cars in the U.S.

Bummer, I can't get the video to play. I just keeping getting this rolling sunray-like thing. Like a 50's sunburst wall clock wired with Christmas lights doing the wave.

re: #40 MarineMomSue

It's not just the Senate, it's the 'hole' of congress.

Soon to expand to the "hole" of the three branches. There will be no escape from this.

re: #40 MarineMomSue

It's not just the Senate, it's the 'whores' of congress.

Fixed.

it's so funny and infuriating.

re: #42 foxtrotter

Bummer, I can't get the video to play. I just keeping getting this rolling sunray-like thing. Like a 50's sunburst wall clock wired with Christmas lights doing the wave.

Me too. I think its an evil Obama mind trance thing designed to brainwash us into paying higher taxes. Must.Try. To. Resist!

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

No. The effect of gravity will cause the money in the hole to imploded into a density greater than neutronium and create a black hole which will ultimately swallow the Earth. (If one theory I heard of is correct the mass of the Earth will be converted into energy and spat out into the universe.)

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

too true

re: #41 Killian Bundy

What's worse, reduced pay and benefits or none because there are no more UAW jobs.

re: #35 Charles

It's painfully funny. Funnily painful. Agonizingly jovial.

Kind of like "what the hell, the ship is sinking anyway. Lets all have a drink!"

"If you love America then you throw money in its hole."

re: #38 gmsc

It should be pointed out that it doesn't just sit in the hole. The hole itself is just where Tyrannosaurus Debt feeds.

At one point in that video, which was made in 1996, it mentions that that the debt is "over $5 trillion". In just those 12 years since the release, the debt has more than doubled.

Where do they get the actors?

re: #43 FurryOldGuyJeans

Soon to expand to the "hole" of the three branches. There will be no escape from this.

We will all have expanded holes soon.

What was it Mencken said about Democracy, it being the theory that the common man always gets what he wants good and hard in the end?

re: #51 Killgore Trout

"If you love America then you throw money in its hole."

I refuse to throw money in the hole. Dammit! That means I'm racist!

re: #50 logboy

Kind of like "what the hell, the ship is sinking anyway. Lets all have a drink!"

Guess the USA Titanic needs to back up and ram that iceberg head on this time, eh?

Oh blessed humor, what better way to face our demise than with laughter?

Enough fun for now, time to use my second amendment rights. Clay pigeons anyone?

A story about the US gov't launching that money into space and into a black hole (where stuff goes in, but doesn't come out) would have been more accurate.

re: #53 MandyManners

Where do they get the actors?

Those were actors?

You mean it's not real?

re: #42 foxtrotter

Bummer, I can't get the video to play. I just keeping getting this rolling sunray-like thing. Like a 50's sunburst wall clock wired with Christmas lights doing the wave.

Does it look anything like this?

We're going to run out of money, (unless we start printing more and then we'll have inflation, right?) and since the Arabs have just observed how much damage can be done to this country with $4 a gallon gas, and with us in this stupid credit crunch, just watch them turn off the supply spigot at the next meeting of OPEC here in a couple of days and watch gas prices go up and the United States start to unravel. Then they can hit us with a terrorist attack and watch life as we know it grind to a complete halt.

It's like they are conducting an experiment on us. They've seen what a terrorist attack can do (9/11). They've now seen what $4 gas does. They've seen how we are winding down in Iraq, so they are winding up in Afghanistan to keep us busy. Combine all three and bring us to our knees. What would we do to retaliate? With what resources? Europe doesn't have any spare change either.

/not feeling to hot about the future right now- we are way too vulnerable.

I was perusing comments on the earlier threads and its obvious some folks are having difficulty swallowing the bitter pill that is Obama's election. But swallow it you must. By all means continue to struggle for what you believe in, but do so with a strong sense of propriety and decorum.

This is the only newspaper in America that is as funny as the New York Times.

re: #49 FurryOldGuyJeans

What's worse, reduced pay and benefits or none because there are no more UAW jobs.

[Expletive deleted] it, let 'em file for bankruptcy, that's what it's there for.

/works for the airlines

And now they want to stop 401(k) pretax contributions and make everyone buy government bonds. Humph. OK, that will never fly, but humph anyway.

re: #53 MandyManners

Where do they get the actors?

I see one of these guys does a particularly dumb commercial for Sonic drive-in restaurants that airs here (Oklahoma) endlessly.

re: #59 GregInSeattle

A story about the US gov't launching that money into space and into a black hole (where stuff goes in, but doesn't come out) would have been more accurate.

...but references to black holes are racist!

re: #31 nyc redneck

obama promised us we could be the money hole.
i want my gas hole money, my rent hole money,
and my unicorn.

There seems to be a long waiting list for unicorns...

re: #65 Killian Bundy

[Expletive deleted] it, let 'em file for bankruptcy, that's what it's there for.

/works for the airlines

Yes. File chapter 11, then renegotiate the union contracts.

re: #65 Killian Bundy

[Expletive deleted] it, let 'em file for bankruptcy, that's what it's there for.

/works for the airlines

Once again the government leeches want to drain even more tax payers' blood money to keep the unions and their votes going.

re: #68 gmsc

OK, I think a neutron star is similar : 0

re: #59 GregInSeattle

A story about the US gov't launching that money into space and into a black hole (where stuff goes in, but doesn't come out) would have been more accurate.

Disclosure: I'm not actually reading this thread. I'm having a busy afternoon and I have to start cooking dinner soon. At the moment, I only have time to control-F search for the word "black" and call anyone who uses it a racist.

Racist!

bbl

re: #58 logboy

Enough fun for now, time to use my second amendment rights. Clay pigeons anyone?

Wife's out for the day. You're not in Utah are you?

re: #51 Killgore Trout

"If you love America then you throw money in its 0-hole."

Maybe there is a gravity cat at the bottom of the money hole.

How much money is BMW, Toyota and Honda asking for? Thats right. They make a profit and good cars, pay the workers well with good benefits. These plants are in America too. The difference is the UAW. It is almost criminal how they have ruined the US car companies. Let them go bankrupt. Let the creditors take over and redo union contracts. You can quote me on this "All UAW workers are wildly overpaid for the skills they have". $25/hour to drive a forklift. $10-12 in the real world. I have always bought American, But when I can afford to buy a new car again, I'll buy foreign just so I don't contribute to UAW morons.

re: #72 GregInSeattle

OK, I think a neutron star is similar : 0

That's probably offensive to neutral countries or neutered dog owners er sumpin'.

What happens when the hole is filled? Do they dig more around the edges to fit in more money?!

Also, LOL.

re: #49 FurryOldGuyJeans

What's worse, reduced pay and benefits or none because there are no more UAW jobs.

This is where we've gone bassackwards in this country. Those are NOT "UAW jobs". Those coorporations are NOT "shipping American jobs overseas"

The "job" belongs to the company. They go out and find someone with a skillset that fits that job at a price to the company that will make financial sense. Where people got the notion that it is "their" job, I have no idea

re: #70 Catttt

Yes. File chapter 11, then renegotiate the union contracts.

I was just hearing about this on the radio. Once they file bankruptcy the union contracts are void. Unfortunately, Obama has strong ties to union lobbyists so I don't expect him to allow this.

re: #73 Last Mohican

Disclosure: I'm not actually reading this thread. I'm having a busy afternoon and I have to start cooking dinner soon. At the moment, I only have time to control-F search for the word "black" and call anyone who uses it a racist.

Racist!

bbl

See post #68

re: #79 davinvalkri

What happens when the hole is filled? Do they dig more around the edges to fit in more money?!

Also, LOL.

Yes. Good-paying government hole digger jobs.

re: #18 SpringheelJack

At some point, the interest on the National Debt will exceed the ability of the taxpayers to pay it and still pay for all the current programs. When that point comes, things will turn quite ugly. At the rate things are going, that point will arrive sometime in 2009 or 2010.

Well, luckily, according to ABC radio top of the hour news you have until 2012. That is the date that Gerald (Nostradamus) Celente predicts the food riots and total meltdown will begin in the United States. When food will be a higher priority than presents under the Christmas tree, to loosely quote the story. If they run that every hour on the news doesn't it become kind of a panic, run on the banks, self fulfilling prophecy?

What color is the hole. If the hole it black then it must be a racist hole.

re: #81 Killgore Trout

I was just hearing about this on the radio. Once they file bankruptcy the union contracts are void. Unfortunately, Obama has strong ties to union lobbyists so I don't expect him to allow this.

Who knows - maybe he'll give them the shaft.

re: #77 VMA211Dan

$25/hour to drive a forklift.

What decade are you in? UAW workers make at LEAST twice that for forklift operators, not even counting bennies

If the Government stops dumping money in a giant hole,
there will never be a Second Avenue Subway.

re: #70 Catttt

will they strike? If they strike the suppliers go broke

and if they file chapter 11, won't lots of their suppliers go under?

What a mess!

If the super-collider creates a black-hole, at least we know what to do with it.

OT repost from last thread where I arrived late and my post was post-mortem:

You probably know this Charles, but most Israelis do not believe that peace is possible without a two state solution. Most American Jews feel the same way. Most American Jews are and have been Democrats for a long time. Every American administration since WWII has been pro-Israel, Republican and Democrat.

Obama has not actually done anything anti-Israeli.
Obama has promised to support Israel and has never been reported to have been in favour of the destruction of the Jewish state or of the genocide of the Jewish people. Had he done so then it would be fair to say that he has endorsed the "extreme Palestinian position".

Most American Jews are very unhappy with the lukewarm support of Israel from the Bush administration.
McCain refused to specifically state that he would be prepared to take military action to stop Iran from acquiring nukes.
McCain never said that Israel would not be required to agree to a two state solution.

I too am disturbed at the pass issued to Obama by Jews and by most Americans.
But I am not surprised.
It is not a black and white issue.

"find the cheapest way to destroy money, like shredding it and feeding it to hogs."

I beg to differ. In New Mexico, we pull money out of ginormous pits.

re: #41 Killian Bundy

UAW leader says no more concessions from workers

So, bend over and fork out $6 billion directly to the UAW pension fund. .

according to Ron gettlefinger, labor costs only make up 8% of the cost of manufacturing the product.

so what makes up the other 92%?

re: #89 Shug

will they strike? If they strike the suppliers go broke

and if they file chapter 11, won't lots of their suppliers go under?

What a mess!

If they file ch 11 the creditors (suppliers) go to the front of the line. Like someone said upthread, the union contract would be null and void, so all that money would be available to creditors

re: #84 fidget

Well, luckily, according to ABC radio top of the hour news you have until 2012. That is the date that Gerald (Nostradamus) Celente predicts the food riots and total meltdown will begin in the United States. When food will be a higher priority than presents under the Christmas tree, to loosely quote the story. If they run that every hour on the news doesn't it become kind of a panic, run on the banks, self fulfilling prophecy?

What?

re: #34 Ackomanyuki

Who cares? its all just "Chump Change" anyway.

No, that was under the Bush administration. Bambi bucks under the ONE.

re: #94 Shug

according to Ron gettlefinger, labor costs only make up 8% of the cost of manufacturing the product.

so what makes up the other 92%?

coffee room supplies

Hard Times spreading just like the flu
Watch out homeboy don't let it get you

"Pushing the pro-hole agenda."
Too funny.

re: #80 sattv4u2

This is where we've gone bassackwards in this country. Those are NOT "UAW jobs". Those coorporations are NOT "shipping American jobs overseas"

The "job" belongs to the company. They go out and find someone with a skillset that fits that job at a price to the company that will make financial sense. Where people got the notion that it is "their" job, I have no idea

Leftoid rhetoric and government is where the entitlement mentality comes from. I remember back when the idea that only businesses create jobs was widely disseminated, and now all that is taught is that government does that.

re: #95 sattv4u2

If they file ch 11 the creditors (suppliers) go to the front of the line. Like someone said upthread, the union contract would be null and void, so all that money would be available to creditors

OK.

so what's the downside of chapter 11 ?

forgive the ignorant question

In a few million years it'll be crude oil.

re: #87 sattv4u2

$25/hour to drive a forklift.

What decade are you in? UAW workers make at LEAST twice that for forklift operators, not even counting bennies

This is 1984 isn't it?

re: #102 Shug

OK.

so what's the downside of chapter 11 ?

forgive the ignorant question

downside is the court is keeping close tabs on every money decision the company wants to make

re: #103 Ay, Caramba

In a few million years it'll be crude oil.

I've been crude for decades

re: #2 logboy

Won't the hole eventually fill up?

Nah. That's when we call Joe the Plumber, don'cha know?
.

When I think of the Osamas living in the Whitehouse and governing this country, I conjure other holes...

re: #108 Bubbaman

When I think of the Osamas living in the Whitehouse and governing this country, I conjure other holes...

PIYF

re: #103 Ay, Caramba

In a few million years it'll be crude oil.

There ya go. It's investment in America's future.

I thought I was hearing that the typical "big three" auto worker makes about $75 an hour. Might be wrong, but that number sticks in my head.

hmmm...i dont remember a bailout when steel went under in the late 70's.

the dems were running the show too.

i wonder what's the difference?

re: #102 Shug

OK.

so what's the downside of chapter 11 ?

forgive the ignorant question

Number one downside is that a lot of jobs will be lost as the companies undergo restructuring. As much as I hate the unions and the unions bosses and believe they need to be hurt, it will be the workers that get the shaft.

re: #94 Shug

The union leader is being disingenuous, which is to be expected. The 8% figure if true (which I doubt) references payroll costs, not the cost of their gold plated health, dental, and vision benefits. I heard on the radio the other night some senior UAW members are grossing $200,000 a year, which may or not be true, but if it is true I wouldn't be shocked.

Very funny, but the analogy isn't quite right. What America is really doing is transferring money from the productive elements of society to Wall St. I had originally thought this bailout amounted to the nationalization of Wall St., but it appears I had it exactly backwards. It's more like the takeover of the U.S. government by Wall St.

We now have a government of, by, and for the international financial interests.

Well I think Peta should be notified about feeding money to the pigs instead of shoveling it in the hole. Money lacks not only intrinsic value but nutritional value. Why pork out hogs with empty calories?

At least our new President is taking a tough line on the biggest threat facing mankind.

Behind Ford's scary $12.7 billion loss

According to the latest calculations, the gap between Japanese and American carmakers' profits average out to about $2900 per vehicle, and the home team does not have the advantage.

Cost issues

A big reason is the cost of labor. As analyzed by Harbour-Felax, labor costs the Detroit Three substantially more per vehicle than it does the Japanese.

Health care is the biggest chunk. GM (Charts), for instance spends $1,635 per vehicle on health care for active and retired workers in the U.S. Toyota (Charts) pays nothing for retired workers - it has very few - and only $215 for active ones.

Other labor costs add to the bill. Contract issues like work rules, line relief and holiday pay amount to $630 per vehicle - costs that the Japanese don't have. And paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut costs another $350 per vehicle.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's wrong with this equation.

/and throwing $50 billion at the problem won't solve it, only prolong it while lining UAW pockets

re: #111 capitalist piglet

I thought I was hearing that the typical "big three" auto worker makes about $75 an hour. Might be wrong, but that number sticks in my head.

Average total compensation for the big 3 auto makers: $73.02/hour

re: #116 monkeytime

Well I think Peta should be notified about feeding money to the pigs instead of shoveling it in the hole. Money lacks not only intrinsic value but nutritional value. Why pork out hogs with empty calories?

Makes for fatter hogs which bring a bigger price when sold.

re: #103 Ay, Caramba

In a few million years it'll be crude oil.

a few million years? uh oh..I feel an ID thread coming on..
Don't you know that you can make crude oil in a few thousand years?
jeez...
/if somebody provides a wacko link i swear i'll fall over in my chair..

re: #114 MrPaulRevere

The union leader is being disingenuous, which is to be expected. The 8% figure if true (which I doubt) references payroll costs, not the cost of their gold plated health, dental, and vision benefits. I heard on the radio the other night some senior UAW members are grossing $200,000 a year, which may or not be true, but if it is true I wouldn't be shocked.

I would be. I'll bet that it's twice that!

Charles -

The hole is NOT new. All 'us'all have been throwing money down it for ages.

-S-

re: #70 Catttt

Yes. File chapter 11, then renegotiate the union contracts.

Riiiight! I mean a big chunk of our retirement is gone. Most of us may never "retire" like our parents did... what makes the union workers so special that they would get to have the whole enchilada re their retirement?

dang

to true . . .

re: #105 sattv4u2

downside is the court is keeping close tabs on every money decision the company wants to make

Again, what's the downside?

re: #111 capitalist piglet

I thought I was hearing that the typical "big three" auto worker makes about $75 an hour. Might be wrong, but that number sticks in my head.

Well, on that subject, here's this:

"Why are you going to take my tax dollars and give it to a company that pays their employees $75 an hour?" asked Rep. Spencer Bachus of Alabama at a House hearing.

"I think people that are going to be more hostile is the saw mill worker in my district who is only making $15 an hour," Bachus added.

IRAN SWITCHES RESERVES TO GOLD

Sat Nov 15, 2008

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran has converted financial reserves into gold to avoid future problems, an adviser to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in comments published on Saturday, after the price of oil fell more than 60 percent from a peak in July.

Iran, the world's fourth-largest oil producer, is under U.N. and U.S. sanctions over its disputed nuclear programme and is now also facing declining revenue from its oil exports after crude prices tumbled.

"With the plans of the presidency...the country's money reserves were changed into gold so that we wouldn't be faced with many problems in the future," presidential adviser Mojtaba Samareh-Hashemi was quoted as saying by business daily Poul.

He gave no figures or other details.

Before oil prices plunged by more than 60 percent from a peak of $147 per barrel in July, Iran made windfall gains from its crude exports and in April estimated its foreign exchange reserves at about $80 billion.

Iranian officials in July denied reports Iranian banks were moving funds from Europe, with one report suggesting as much as $75 billion had been withdrawn and converted into gold or placed in Asian banks, because of a threat of tightening sanctions.

The International Monetary Fund said in August that if the price of Iranian crude fell to $75 a barrel, Iran would face a current account deficit in the medium term that would be tough to sustain due to Tehran's financial isolation.

On Friday, U.S. crude fell $1.20 at $57.04.

Gold futures ended more than 5 percent higher on Friday and bullion ended the week about $10 higher compared with its last Friday's close of $735.95 as investors covered short positions.

Guess what happens to the US-Reserve Money Hole when the other OPEC members follow suit?
.

re: #119 gmsc

Average total compensation for the big 3 auto makers: $73.02/hour

Thanks. And there you go. Cut that in half, and you have the typical hourly wage of a software engineer in Seattle (a high cost-of-living market).

re: #111 capitalist piglet

Yeah, I heard it cost $75 an hour for a UAW worker.......includes benefits, soc sec taxes....and legal, bureaucratic, procedural costs to conform to union rules, etc. I don't know what the actual pay is.

re: #124 Sunlight

Riiiight! I mean a big chunk of our retirement is gone. Most of us may never "retire" like our parents did... what makes the union workers so special that they would get to have the whole enchilada re their retirement?

Because they belong to a union according to the union leaders, DUH! ;)

re: #126 gmsc

Again, what's the downside?

hehe ,,, how would you like it if you had to go to a court appointed overseer every time you wanted to spend a dime/

re: #77 VMA211Dan

...You can quote me on this "All UAW workers are wildly overpaid for the skills they have". $25/hour to drive a forklift. $10-12 in the real world. I have always bought American, But when I can afford to buy a new car again, I'll buy foreign just so I don't contribute to UAW morons.

a relative retired from GM 3 years ago. He collected a GM paycheck for over 30 yrs. He made OVER $30 an hour to drive a forklift plus 'mandatory overtime' every week, of course! Soon my tax dollars (and yours) will be paying his retirement & health bennies. Gee whiz, thanks UAW, for making him so comfy all these years. As for me, I'll have to keep my old car running because I sure can't afford to buy a new one in MY retirement.

re: #132 sattv4u2

hehe ,,, how would you like it if you had to go to a court appointed overseer every time you wanted to spend a dime/

Plus telling you how much money you can keep.

re: #111 capitalist piglet

I thought I was hearing that the typical "big three" auto worker makes about $75 an hour. Might be wrong, but that number sticks in my head.

It costs Detroit 4K more per vehicle to make a car, due to insurance, legacy, and labor costs. Take that away, and they can compete here. And at least they make something, as opposed to the asshats on Wall Street who are getting bailed out with hundreds of billions for fu#king up their casinoes, shuffling paper around.

The Big 3 needs to break the unions, but this country absolutely needs to hold on to its last tiny bit of heavy industry capability. Remember what finally got us out of the last big Depression?

re: #132 sattv4u2

hehe ,,, how would you like it if you had to go to a court appointed overseer every time you wanted to spend a dime/

If a union representative was trying to argue for more compensation from me, I'd love it, as he'd basically have to argue with the judge for more money!

re: #53 MandyManners

Where do they get the actors?

Actors?

Well, golly! Just when Mr. Wolf was fixing to get a government job! Maybe he oughta look at a UAW job instead.

re: #135 JohnAdams

*SNIP* Remember what finally got us out of the last big Depression?

Entry into WWII and government spending out the wazoo.

Why don't the automakers just tell the UAW to fuck-off and start hiring people who refuse to join a union?

re: #136 gmsc

If a union representative was trying to argue for more compensation from me, I'd love it, as he'd basically have to argue with the judge for more money!

At that point, there would be no union rep. At ch11, the union contracts would be null and void. You're basically starting from scratch, with 2 differences

1) you still owe your creditors
2) you're overseen by the courts

re: #129 capitalist piglet

Wha?! Holy ****, no wonder GM is going under! $73 an hour; and this is for entry level jobs! Wah!

re: #140 MandyManners

Why don't the automakers just tell the UAW to fuck-off and start hiring people who refuse to join a union?

Government negotiated contracts is why.

re: #140 MandyManners

Why don't the automakers just tell the UAW to fuck-off and start hiring people who refuse to join a union?

Baseball bat
meet
windshield.

re: #140 MandyManners

Why don't the automakers just tell the UAW to fuck-off and start hiring people who refuse to join a union?

Because the union contracts that the big 3 agreed to are still valid.

re: #140 MandyManners

They can't Mandy. Union membership is mandatory in those plants.

re: #140 MandyManners

Why don't the automakers just tell the UAW to fuck-off and start hiring people who refuse to join a union?

/it's called a contract

re: #139 FurryOldGuyJeans

Entry into WWII and government spending out the wazoo.

Exactly. Once we lose heavy industrial capability, our national security is a creampuff. The government has been propping up big steel for years. I'm not saying it's right to ask taxpayers to prop up the big 3, and maybe bankruptcy is their only option in blowing up the UAW, but the auto industry is vital to every facet of this country.

Time to Bust The Trust that are the unions.

re: #124 Sunlight

Riiiight! I mean a big chunk of our retirement is gone. Most of us may never "retire" like our parents did... what makes the union workers so special that they would get to have the whole enchilada re their retirement?

Sunlight -

The Union workers are NOT special. The difference is that THEY were Promised things through Labor Contracts - Fairly negotiated - or so they thought. Go from there.

-S-

re: #140 MandyManners

Why don't the automakers just tell the UAW to fuck-off and start hiring people who refuse to join a union?

That's what right-to-work laws are about.

Allowing people to freely chose NOT to join a union and still get a job.

re: #119 gmsc

If the median pediatrician's salary (including "bonuses") is $156,890, and if the average pediatrician works 54.9 hours per week, and takes two weeks off per year, then a pediatrician makes about $57.15 per hour.

By the way, I'm sick and tired of being lectured by these overpaid goons to 'buy American'. My money goes where the value is, simple as that.

re: #148 JohnAdams

but the auto industry is vital to every facet of this country.

And it operates just fine in this country.

/except in Detroit

re: #152 Last Mohican

If the median pediatrician's salary (including "bonuses") is $156,890, and if the average pediatrician works 54.9 hours per week, and takes two weeks off per year, then a pediatrician makes about $57.15 per hour.

4 yrs college
4 yrs medical school
3 years residency ( making 40K/yr)

so 11 years to become a pediatrician.

Yeah, I'd say the auto indsustry has messed up priorities

re: #149 FurryOldGuyJeans

Time to Bust The Trust that are the unions.

The unions once served a purpose but they have become as corrupt as apparently every other institution. Think of a union job as a golden parachute--they're going to get out of there with as much as they can before they tank the whole thing.

re: #155 Shug

so 11 years to become a pediatrician.

But it takes at least that long to learn how to drive a fork-lift, right?

Off topic, but pertinent to those of us who live in SoCal.

Wow, I've never seen anything like this fire. Of course, it's all about proximity, but I happen to be close enough to Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda, Chino Hills, and Brea to be covered in smoke. The sky is brown and yellow, the sun is red, and the air quality is terrible. I can't imagine how people in this area are just going to sit here and breathe this ashy un-hydrated soup.

re: #157 Silhouette

But it takes at least that long to learn how to drive a fork-lift, right?

Longer if you listen to union leaders.

Heh, don't expect anything but union pork from the prez elect. His claims of "no lobbyists" is laughable when you consider the universal support he received from unions. My hubby is in the IAFF and their membership has been harrangued by union bosses to support their UAW "brothers" in this bailout.Hubby tossed the missive in the garbage for all to see.

re: #119 gmsc

Average total compensation for the big 3 auto makers: $73.02/hour

people are going to get tired of bailing out every mismanaged outfit that operates in the red. i resent that my tax money would go to the auto workers so they can keep their inflated life style going. because they like it like that.
too damn bad.
they need to get in the real world.

re: #161 nyc redneck

people are going to get tired of bailing out every mismanaged outfit that operates in the red. i resent that my tax money would go to the auto workers so they can keep their inflated life style going. because they like it like that.
too damn bad.
they need to get in the real world.

For the unions $75/hour is the real world.

re: #151 Silhouette

That's what right-to-work laws are about.

Allowing people to freely chose NOT to join a union and still get a job.

/just wait until the Bonkeys pass the so called "Employee Free Choice Act" to pay back the unions for the last election, they'll close down your local grocery store

re: #151 Silhouette

That's what right-to-work laws are about.

Allowing people to freely chose NOT to join a union and still get a job.

Thats state by state. I beleive only about half the states have right to work laws

re: #164 sattv4u2

Thats state by state. I beleive only about half the states have right to work laws

Exactly. We need them more places.

Letting GM, Ford & Chrysler would mean a collapse of what remains of the US manufacturing base. It's not just engineers and assembly workers. GM has more computers, pcs, mainframes and supercomputers, than any other company in North America. Dell, Microsoft, Cisco, software vendors and the rest will take a huge hit. GM is still DuPont's single biggest customer. The collapse would take hundreds of vendors with them - impacting the ability of Toyota, Honda and the rest because they, particularly their US assembly operations, rely on many of the same vendors in their supply chain. US unemployment could hit 15%. What remains of the US manufacturing base will be irreparably harmed, creating a supply chain problem for even high tech businesses and defense industry. You think Boeing and General Dynamics can build fighter jets and tanks if we don't have a manufacturing base?

For consumers, prices will go up and features will be reduced.

The domestics still have a 55% market share. You can't remove competitors with that level of market penetration and not see prices from the remaining companies skyrocket. That's simple economics, lizardoids. You'll also see reduced content from Toyondisssanai. Finally, the list of technological innovations by the Big 3 and their vendors runs from the electric starter to seat belts to audio systems to catalytic converters to the magnetically controlled shock absorbers (dampers to physicists and Brits) on the Corvette. GM & Ford spend over $15 billion a year on R&D. Without technological competition, Toyota & Honda and the rest have less of an incentive to innovate. A collapse of the Detroit car companies would not be good for consumers.

Consumers are not rational actors. People will say they'll never buy an American car because their dad had a POS Ford or Chevy in 1985. Nobody says they won't shop at Sears because they had a crappy Kenmore washing machine 20 years ago. Does anyone hate Apple if it makes no economic sense to repair an out of warranty iPod and they just replace it with another, rationalizing the purchase because of increased features and performance of the new one, not realizing that Steve Jobs just sold them a subscription fee? Does anyone hate LG, or Panasonic because most consumer electronics these days are literally irreparable, with surface components on the pc boards that can't be individually replaced and with company policies of not making those boards or encapsuled modules available as replacement parts?

GM, Ford & Chrysler have made mistakes (and in many ways are now making competitive product), but we've allowed our manufacturing base to be hollowed out. Shoes, apparel, steel, consumer electronics, machine tools, and on and on and on. Were all those industries run by knaves and fools and staffed by lazy incompetents?

The US hasn't had a sound industrial policy since the 1950s and we're now paying the piper.

Here's a funny thing.

Portrait of the Queen by New York artist George Condo.

OT:
Some upbeat news. It appears the latest update for Firefox has solved all my LGF loading problems. No more "page not found" (x3), no more infinitely-spinning hamster wheel when loading new comments or when posting. Either that, or Charled fixed something in the Java code at the same time as me updating Firefox. Either way, sa-weeet.
-Taq

re: #81 Killgore Trout

I was just hearing about this on the radio. Once they file bankruptcy the union contracts are void. Unfortunately, Obama has strong ties to union lobbyists so I don't expect him to allow this.

That's why the Donks are pushing hard to use the bank bailout money to bailout the Big Three, on top of the money that's been given to them, because they know that if the Big Three go into bankruptcy, the UAW (by and large) is done for.

re: #169 talon_262

That's why the Donks are pushing hard to use the bank bailout money to bailout the Big Three, on top of the money that's been given to them, because they know that if the Big Three go into bankruptcy, the UAW (by and large) is done for.

I don't see a problem here, but then I have to say I am a proud non-union member.

re: #148 JohnAdams

Exactly. Once we lose heavy industrial capability, our national security is a creampuff. The government has been propping up big steel for years.

Even 35 years ago the US steelmaking capability was so inadequate, that all of the thick wall heavy-duty 48" pipe for the Alaska pipeline had to be ordered from Japan. That steel fabrication order came to a total of around $200 million.

That $200 million was recouped by the oil companies in the first 2 weeks, once the oil started flowing.
.

re: #162 FurryOldGuyJeans

For the unions $75/hour is the real world.

not much longer. that can't be sustained. even w/ a bailout.

re: #165 Silhouette

Exactly. We need them more places.

There's some compelling evidence that states that do have Right To Work laws have worse working conditions than states that don't

re: #163 Killian Bundy

they'll close down your local grocery store

I'm close to the ownership of a medium-sized grocery store chain (in three states) and I know they are constantly fighting unionization.

And the unionization is NEVER, not once, the idea of any of the employees. They are schmoozed at best, and failing that, threatened, to support the union.

So far the good guys have won each time, but we have to win every time in keeping unions out and they only have to win once.

re: #168 Taqiyyotomist

Had the same problems. Do you run Vista and did the issues occur on other sites?

re: #166 Ronnie Schreiber

The fallicy of that is that bankruptcy does not equal going out of business.

/it's a reorganization, think airline industry

OT
Very cool!
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

re: #172 nyc redneck

not much longer. that can't be sustained. even w/ a bailout.

The unions and government never look to the future, only the here and now, when taxes and benefits are at stake.

I wish I could find a particular video. It shows a brand new efficient car plant. Suppliers have their own sections for manufacturing in-house (so items are made as needed), automation is used in every area possible, and every other modern feature you could imagine.

At the end, the narrator points out that the factory is in South America (Brazil, I believe), and that such a plant couldn't even be built in the US, due to laws, union regulations and so on.

Does anybody have that video?

re: #155 Shug

Who cares about pediatricians? They don't make cars. They only take care of sick kids (in the middle of the night, too.)
Anyway, what they do should be free, right?

(Disclaimer: FB is a pediatrician.)

re: #172 nyc redneck

not much longer. that can't be sustained. even w/ a bailout.

the "bailout" won't reduce the union contracts. Only 2 ways that wages will go down
1) filing for bankruptcy
2 ) the union agrees to wage cuts !

All I see is smoke.

re: #166 Ronnie Schreiber
Yeah, but the point being that the UAW prez says absolutely no concessions, ala airline industry. No concessions could mean no job.

re: #166 Ronnie Schreiber

i am sick and tired of "too big to fail"

we need failure to remain competitive.

chapter 11 for the big three and see if we can get rid of the fat, make a car worth buying, and then roll them into the big two. i have yet to see a main line gm product that i would ever consider owning. (and yes, i have owned american cars)

re: #176 Killian Bundy

The fallicy of that is that bankruptcy does not equal going out of business.

/it's a reorganization, think airline industry

The fallacy is being spread by the unions, while abetted by the media, so as to keep the money trough full.

re: #181 sattv4u2

At this rate the bailout will need a bailout.

re: #180 FightingBack

Who cares about pediatricians? They don't make cars. They only take care of sick kids (in the middle of the night, too.)
Anyway, what they do should be free, right?

(Disclaimer: FB is a pediatrician.)

exactly. Your many years as a scut monkey is reward enough.

All I smell is smoke.

re: #181 sattv4u2

the "bailout" won't reduce the union contracts. Only 2 ways that wages will go down
1) filing for bankruptcy
2 ) the union agrees to wage cuts !

If anything a bailout will only embolden the unions and government to continue business as usual and rape more of the American taxpayers with higher taxes.

That should have been "Letting GM, Ford & Chrysler go belly up"

Hey, Charles, how about an option to edit already posted comments? I've seen that at a couple of blogs.

re: #188 DesertSage

All I smell is smoke.

where are you?

re: #186 MrPaulRevere

At this rate the bailout will need a bailout.

Already happening now that the consensus is general that the prior bailouts were resounding failures.

re: #186 MrPaulRevere

At this rate the bailout will need a bailout.

It would be like my kid coming to me saying he has a 100k gambling debt, and could I bail him out by paying it,,, BUT,,, he won;t stop gambling after I pay it off

re: #173 sattv4u2

There's some compelling evidence that states that do have Right To Work laws have worse working conditions than states that don't

yes, states like Miss., Ala. and SC where BMW, Nissan, etc. are. They aren't asking for bailout money and I'd gladly work for them. Good jobs.

re: #176 Killian Bundy

The fallicy of that is that bankruptcy does not equal going out of business.

/it's a reorganization, think airline industry

Exactly! Strangely enough, we need to tell this to the automakers, according to this story:

Automakers say bankruptcy protection is not an option because people would be reluctant to make long-term car and truck purchases from companies that might not last the life of their vehicles.

Newsflash to automakers: People have been buying tickets from bankrupt airlines for some time now.

re: #173 sattv4u2

There's some compelling evidence that states that do have Right To Work laws have worse working conditions than states that don't

I don't doubt it. $73/hr to drive a forklift sounds like pretty good working conditions to me.

re: #192 FurryOldGuyJeans

That's why I didn't put a sarc tag on it. It might have been a word play, but I was being serious.

re: #181 sattv4u2

the "bailout" won't reduce the union contracts. Only 2 ways that wages will go down
1) filing for bankruptcy
2 ) the union agrees to wage cuts !

Why isn't the UAW at the table right now with the big 3, negotiating a huge decrease in wages in exchange for some job security?
Could it be because they believe Uncle Sam will bail out the companies and are sitting tight to see if this happens?

i say no bail out.
force them into chapter 11.
and then they can trim the fat and throw that in the money hole.

re: #195 gmsc

Newsflash to auto LAWmakers: People have been buying tickets from bankrupt airlines for some time now.

Courtesy of Instapundit:

WHY ISN'T DETROIT a paradise?

UPDATE: From the comments: "I’m not singling out Michigan and Detroit for condemnation but just using them as the primary examples of the collapse of the area. Fifty years ago, Detroit was the premier industrial city in the entire world. If you’d have told someone in 1957 that in 2007 Detroit would be a basket case, they would have thought you mad. The collapse of the region occurred in a period of less than 15 years (1960-1975). It can happen that fast in the rest of the country if we implement the same policies."

ANOTHER UPDATE: Related thoughts from Rand Simberg.

MORE: Several readers note that Detroit is a paradise for Democratic officeholders, since it keeps reelecting them.

re: #197 MrPaulRevere

That's why I didn't put a sarc tag on it. It might have been a word play, but I was being serious.

I certainly didn't take it as sarcasm, I saw nothing but the bald-faced truth.

re: #191 nyc redneck

where are you?

SoCal.

Once again government is trying to do what it does best: throwing money at a problem that they are largely responsible for.

re: #198 Spare O'Lake

Why isn't the UAW at the table right now with the big 3, negotiating a huge decrease in wages in exchange for some job security?
Could it be because they believe Uncle Sam will bail out the companies and are sitting tight to see if this happens?

Have you any idea how difficult it is for the big 3 to get rid of "A" worker, even for cause !?!?!?! The union is holding all the aces in this tale. the ONLY way the big 3 gets out of it is chapter 11.

re: #175 vagabond trader

WinXP sp2, Firefox3 (latest update). I had the problems I described with LGF only. Now I don't. Also, I kept FF updated, so the problems existed up until the latest update (yesterday). It was getting bothersome, having to CTRL-C the contents of each comment, just in case the hamster wheel went into "infinite mode". And it really was infinite. I once forgot that I posted a comment, went to another tab, read for about an hour or so, came back and the thing was still spinning. So far, it seems to be working byootifully.

re: #204 FurryOldGuyJeans

Everybody - DIG!

re: #204 FurryOldGuyJeans

Once again government is trying to do what it does best: throwing money at a problem that they are largely responsible for.

and taking credit for fixing the problem that they caused.

case in point is Bawney Fwank

re: #205 sattv4u2

Have you any idea how difficult it is for the big 3 to get rid of "A" worker, even for cause !?!?!?! The union is holding all the aces in this tale. the ONLY way the big 3 gets out of it is chapter 11.

Even chapter 11 is no guarantee that the government will not force the automakers to renegotiate UAW contracts.

re: #183 VMA211Dan
...."No concessions could mean no job...."

Well, not for the head of the UAW.....

re: #53 MandyManners

Where do they get the actors?

That Duncan feller is in some Sonic commercials. He wasn't nearly as annoying in this video.

as a small business owner, i really resent these fat bastard thieves.
the workers, the unions, the bosses. all in collusion w/ their grubby paws on profits.
they have forgotten the share holders. they have forgotten the customer.
they have forgotten integrity in business. they have given in to greed.
why do we have to pay for that?

re: #195 gmsc

Automakers say bankruptcy protection is not an option because people would be reluctant to make long-term car and truck purchases from companies that might not last the life of their vehicles.

/um, isn't that already the problem?

re: #203 DesertSage

SoCal.

are their forest fires?

re: #212 nyc redneck

as a small business owner, i really resent these fat bastard thieves.
the workers, the unions, the bosses. all in collusion w/ their grubby paws on profits.
they have forgotten the share holders. they have forgotten the customer.
they have forgotten integrity in business. they have given in to greed.
why do we have to pay for that?

Because ultimately the government gave them the legal power to make us pay for all of this.

re: #204 FurryOldGuyJeans

Once again government is trying to do what it does best: throwing money at a problem that they are largely responsible for.

..and once again Americans recognize this, see it clearly, shrug, say so what, and support the wasteful action.

re: #209 FurryOldGuyJeans

Even chapter 11 is no guarantee that the government will not force the automakers to renegotiate UAW contracts.

they could have to renegotiate, but at least the current contract will be null and void. At least then the companies have some leverage

re: #198 Spare O'Lake

Even if the company declares bankruptcy, it won't open the contract for negotiations or affect current wage rates UNLESS the company shuts the door. The company can ask the UAW to voluntarily sit down for concessions bargaining - to see if the Union is even capable of making the necessary concessions to keep afloat. The first stop could be retirees as they are a voluntary subject of bargaining anyway per the NLRA. If you are a retiree, watch your back - your benefits are (typically) the first ones cut in these situations.

re: #216 unrealizedviewpoint

..and once again Americans recognize this, see it clearly, shrug, say so what, and support the wasteful action.

Once again the American people are showing just how irrational and stupid we all can be.

re: #215 FurryOldGuyJeans

Because ultimately the government gave them the legal power to make us pay for all of this.

i'm not paying.

I use a chevy astro van for my work. It's a terrific vehicle and has never given me any trouble in 200 thousand miles.

Some union members are downright schizophrenic, the have nothing but hostility toward the companies that have given them everything. I used to belong to the United Steelworkers, trust me on this.

re: #220 nyc redneck

i'm not paying.

One way or the other other we all end up paying no matter what our preferences are.

re: #205 sattv4u2

Again, a reorganization bankruptcy does NOTHING to a labor contract. It may affect future negotiations when contracts expire (typically pension payments, because you would have to go back to the board for approval for increases, or retiree medical, which would go to the board and probably get thrown out the window as they are not a mandatory subject of bargaining.

re: #223 MrPaulRevere

Some union members are downright schizophrenic, the have nothing but hostility toward the companies that have given them everything. I used to belong to the United Steelworkers, trust me on this.

That is the union indoctrination at work.

re: #224 FurryOldGuyJeans

One way or the other other we all end up paying no matter what our preferences are.

i prefer donating to the animal shelter in my county.

re: #218 ArmyWife

Even if the company declares bankruptcy, it won't open the contract for negotiations or affect current wage rates UNLESS the company shuts the door. The company can ask the UAW to voluntarily sit down for concessions bargaining - to see if the Union is even capable of making the necessary concessions to keep afloat. The first stop could be retirees as they are a voluntary subject of bargaining anyway per the NLRA. If you are a retiree, watch your back - your benefits are (typically) the first ones cut in these situations.

dear leader has not appeared with any Labor/Union leaders since the election. . .thanks for your support, I will take your jobs now, and you can plant trees for food. . .

Semi Off Topic: Is this really the L.A. Times saying this?!?

L.A. Times: Shadow over solar power in L.A.

The Los Angeles City Council had better hurry up and put something called the Green Energy-Good Jobs Initiative on the March 3 ballot, or we will never, ever have solar power in this city. There's no time to see where the plan fits into an as-yet-unseen comprehensive solar plan. There's no time to wonder why its chief sponsors are labor unions. There's no time to ask why the leader of the city-owned Department of Water and Power took this initiative to the City Council over the heads of his commissioners.

At least that's the message that has emerged from council chambers over the last two weeks, after this initiative to install city-owned solar panels on Los Angeles rooftops materialized. Boosters argue that, for goodness' sake, we just have to get this thing on the ballot by today's artificial deadline, and then we'll have plenty of time to answer everyone's questions.

This rush to the ballot has the scent of swindle about it. Council members and a smattering of environmentalists speak about the plan with happy words, but through gritted teeth. That's because, just out of view, their arms are being twisted.

The plan put together by Working Californians -- headed by Brian D'Arcy, business manager of the union representing DWP electricians, and Marvin Kropke, business manager of another International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers union that does a great deal of city contracting -- theoretically could form part of an acceptable proposal to expand Los Angeles' supply of solar power. Instead, it does little to advance energy supply and much to reveal who's pulling the strings in Los Angeles.

It stands the priority list for intelligent solar policy on its head. Increased electrical generation capacity and benefit for ratepayers fall to the bottom. They're replaced by secondary priorities, such as economic stimulus and job security for DWP workers, or even non-priorities (for L.A. residents, anyway), such as near-exclusive IBEW power over awarding solar-panel-installation jobs and union support for elected officials.

A comprehensive solar plan might well provide welcome job opportunities to Los Angeles residents and businesses. This one appears to be more about locking up those opportunities for its sponsors than opening them to potential competitors. Meanwhile, there are serious questions about the numbers being batted about the council chamber. The 400 megawatts the program would presumably produce by 2014 appear to have more to do with political marketing than with reality. The estimated increases in electricity rates seem similarly speculative.

Council members -- even those seven who are up for reelection March 3 and crave labor donations -- should sober up. If this really must come before voters, there will be plenty more opportunities in this city, where elections are more frequent than rainy days.

The fallicy of that is that bankruptcy does not equal going out of business.

/it's a reorganization, think airline industry

Would you buy a car from a bankrupt car company?

The oft-heard comparison with the bankruptcy prone airline industry is a terrible analogy. Airlines don't make anything, they provide a service. Who cares if an airline goes out of business next week if you're flying this week? You get the cheapest price then forget about it. Most people keep a new car for years, sometimes 10 or more, and warranties are an important factor in car buyers' decisions. Hell, Hyundai was able to overcome the fact that the first cars they sold here were crappy by hyping a 100K mile / 10 year warranty.

Besides, if we want to discuss rewarding bad behavior, let's discuss government backed flood and earthquake insurance (when private carriers think building on a flood plain is not the best idea) or rebuilding sub-sea level New Orleans. Not only do we reward poor choices with FEMA's NFIP, we will have to reward those choices again and again. Floods are literally as regular as rain. There will be a "20 year flood" within the next 20 years, and a 50 year flood within the next 50. The private insurance companies know that but the taxpayers keep paying up. GM, at least, is not guaranteed to fail. Those houses covered by flood insurance will most assuredly be flooded again.

Because of the recent renegotiated contracts w/ the UAW, most of the structural and labor cost advantages the foreign manufacturers have will go away and the domestics will no longer have a $2000-$3000 cost disadvantage per car. GM has made some important changes and Ford, according to even the most severe critics of any bailout, has a good chance of turning things around if they can get past the current liquidity crisis.

I'm a free market guy and I hate the idea of government subsidies to businesses, but this is a shit sandwich we might have to swallow.

I can do little but read and learn on threads like this.
I'm in SW MI, quite lacking in marketable skills, about to face jobhunt competition from who knows how many hundred thousand ex-auto workers. Also, "Big Office Furniture" aka Herman Miller, Steelcase, just laid off quite a few more. I'm beginning to wonder which state I should walk to with my seabag on my back, since I have no vehicle. (Because, having crashed my last one, I owe the state more money than my unskilled low-wage job can pay, simply for crashing MY car into NOTHING. MI is the give-us-your-money state.) Can I blame the president for my personal economy? Hell no, and I never will. Stupid libs do that. Nervous as a cat in a roomful of rocking chairs, though.

Only kidding a little bit about walking my ass to another state though.

re: #226 FurryOldGuyJeans

Its unreal. I get told all the time "Your job is to manage this company. If you manage it down the toilet, that is on you" Yes, well President Smith of Local XXX, but if it goes down the toilet, so too does your job.

re: #228 DisturbedEma

dear leader has not appeared with any Labor/Union leaders since the election. . .thanks for your support, I will take your jobs now, and you can plant trees for food. . .

I've heard the NKorean recipes for tree bark and weeds are very tasty.

re: #194 VMA211Dan

yes, states like Miss., Ala. and SC where BMW, Nissan, etc. are. They aren't asking for bailout money and I'd gladly work for them. Good jobs.

There's a reason why a lot of industry is moving to the south. VW is going to build a plant in Chattanooga next year. AL lost the bidding for that plant. TN sweetened the pot just a little more. Nissan and Infiniti have plants in Mississippi. That BMW plant in Greenville, SC is something else too. So many other factories (read jobs) have sprung up beside it. I was watching some show on Discovery about this... the seats are custom built only hours before they are installed in the car. The seat factory is next door and they signed a contract with BMW to have them built in time. Clemson's ME department has grown significantly with cooperation with BMW. When I lived near there, there was talk about making upstate SC an auto R&D mecca.

re: #221 ploome hineni

I've been driving an American Car my whole life. ( since I grew up and bought my own car
Pontiac Sunfire
Then3 generations of Ford Explorer
Lincoln Navigator
Now a lincoln MKX as well as a Jeep Grand Cherokee

not a lemon in the bunch.

great cars made in America. It just costs the companies too much to make them

re: #233 FurryOldGuyJeans

I've heard the NKorean recipes for tree bark and weeds are very tasty.

Sigh, too sad to be really funny- but yeah, the devil is in the details. . .as in to unions like mine "jobs! Don't ask me how, what kind, pay benefits, taxes. . ."

re: #228 DisturbedEma

The irony is quite lost on union leadership. Believe me. DOWN WITH BIG OIL COMPANIES (that we need so that people who buy our cars can still drive, or for trucks to keep delivering stuff, or to run manufacturing facilities or...) DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT HELPING BIG CORPORATIONS (but please, send cash to us, the big 3. Don't be confused by the "big", we really are just mom and pop organizations)

Some days I just want to go to sleep and not wake up for 3 years.

The unions and their leaders have become the Robber Barons their brethren used to oppose.

re: #214 nyc redneck

are their forest fires?

Fires are breaking out all over.

re: #231 Taqiyyotomist

Lacking marketable skills you say? Make a list of what you are good at, and what you like to do. Think of me as the Dr. Phil of HR for the next 30 minutes.

re: #225 ArmyWife

Again, a reorganization bankruptcy does NOTHING to a labor contract. It may affect future negotiations when contracts expire (typically pension payments, because you would have to go back to the board for approval for increases, or retiree medical, which would go to the board and probably get thrown out the window as they are not a mandatory subject of bargaining.

Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Prager and a host of others (even a lawyer here in Atlanta) have stated that under CH 11 all labor contracts are null and void and subject to renegotition. Thats why they call it REORGANIZING UNDER CHAPTER 11

Why isn't the UAW at the table right now with the big 3, negotiating a huge decrease in wages in exchange for some job security?

They already have. All three of the car companies renegotiated their contracts with the domestics, shifting health care costs to VEBAs, setting up two tier wages for new hires, and in general leveling the playing field with Toyondissanai. The savings are billions and billions of dollars. The problem is that most of the savings don't really kick in till 2010.

You can see more details here:
[Link: www.autoblog.com...]

re: #225 ArmyWife

re: #242 sattv4u2

Looks like we need to get one of our legal beagle lizards in here to answer this question.

I have an important announcement to make:

Steve was far better in Blues Clues than Joe.

End of transmission.

re: #140 MandyManners
AMEN!

re: #242 sattv4u2

I am a labor atty. I work in HR for one of the largest Chemical plant in the US, 3rd in the world. Unless they have language in their contract stating this, it isn't null and void.

re: #244 FurryOldGuyJeans

re: #242 sattv4u2

Looks like we need to get one of our legal beagle lizards in here to answer this question.

We don't need this thread to go to the dogs now !

re: #245 karmic_inquisitor

I have an important announcement to make:

Steve was far better in Blues Clues than Joe.

End of transmission.

I knew maternity leave was just a bit too long when Steve started looking REAL good to me.

re: #231 Taqiyyotomist

I can do little but read and learn on threads like this.
I'm in SW MI, quite lacking in marketable skills, about to face jobhunt competition from who knows how many hundred thousand ex-auto workers. Also, "Big Office Furniture" aka Herman Miller, Steelcase, just laid off quite a few more. I'm beginning to wonder which state I should walk to with my seabag on my back, since I have no vehicle. (Because, having crashed my last one, I owe the state more money than my unskilled low-wage job can pay, simply for crashing MY car into NOTHING. MI is the give-us-your-money state.) Can I blame the president for my personal economy? Hell no, and I never will. Stupid libs do that. Nervous as a cat in a roomful of rocking chairs, though.

Only kidding a little bit about walking my ass to another state though.

Find the closest right-to-work state with the lowest taxes and get thyself to a bus station. Wouldn't hurt to look over the local want adds on the computer first, and do some long distance inquiries.

re: #240 DesertSage

you better get out of there.

re: #248 sattv4u2

We don't need this thread to go to the dogs now !

Would it be too over the top for Congress to get a touch of mange? ;)

Just listening to local Detroit news.
EU not gonna play ball re: the govt bailout

/ et tu airbus?

Otherwise companies would be declaring chapter 11 all over the place to rid themselves of the Union. It WILL open it up to concessions bargaining, but that is voluntary. They can't even hope for a strike because you can't bring in "scabs" for an economic strike.

re: #248 sattv4u2

We don't need this thread to go to the dogs now !

Where is pre-Boomer Marine brat?

re: #247 ArmyWife

I am a labor atty. I work in HR for one of the largest Chemical plant in the US, 3rd in the world. Unless they have language in their contract stating this, it isn't null and void.

Aren't cram downs common in these sorts of BKs? Northwest, United and Delta reworked all of their labor contracts with mechanics, pilots and attendants in reorg.

I had this thought last night that perhaps one of the reasons Obama won by such a comfortable margin is fear of unrest/desire for stability. In the wake of the Obama victor there is calm, even jubilation. As opposed to the riots had McCain squeaked out a victory. Better to fall apart slowly with an Obama victory than immediately with an Obama.

In the meantime, I am taking slight consolation that the lefty world around me is very content and harmonious. I believe it's the calm before the storm, but I won't tell anybody.

The reorganization is about the debt - perhaps they were referring to the monies owed to the Union v. the CBA in general?

re: #231 Taqiyyotomist
Job market is getting real tight, no doubt. I drove 3 hours each way for a job interview in Orlando yesterday. Every job I get a chance at requires relocation. I get calls from headhunters for industrial jobs in Arkansas, Texas, Missouri, mostly. Somebody is doing it right. Maybe lower corporate taxes in some states. I left Ohio awhile ago, no jobs. MI is probably worse with those huge taxes. You got to go where the work is.

re: #256 karmic_inquisitor

Aren't cram downs common in these sorts of BKs? Northwest, United and Delta reworked all of their labor contracts with mechanics, pilots and attendants in reorg.

If I remember correctly the airline unions realized that half a loaf is better than none and voluntarily renegotiated. I don't see the UAW doing anything but staying the course.

re: #256 karmic_inquisitor

Yes "voluntarily" sometimes means do it, or no more jobs. Airline unions have quite different rules, though, than normal labor contracts, as do government unions.

re: #235 Shug

I agree. My last truck was Japanese and it almostwiped me out every month. Now driving a Doge Dakota and loving it. No problems at all and about to hit 40,000.
And yes trucks are for girls!