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Who's the Anti-Intellectual?

Opinion | Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 8:40:44 am PST

Timothy Sandefur has an interesting post on the anti-intellectualism of the left.

Liberals have lately been making much of the purported anti-intellectualism of conservatives in the late election. No doubt they’re right. But I must say I find it laughable that this charge would come from liberals of all people. The left in this country has had a long and dismal history of embracing a wide variety of anti-intellectual credos.

Start with the most obvious: the left has long been the welcoming home of fashionable postmodern nonsense like deconstructivism and moral and cultural relativism. Under these doctrines there are supposed to be different kinds of “logics” (male logic, female logic, &.) and none is more valid than the other. All of them are simply clever masks for a brutal competition for wealth and power. This is a profoundly anti-intellectual strain of pseudo-thought which avoids the need to take any arguments seriously, because such ideas simply be accused of corruption. When Sandra Harding called Newton’s Principia a “rape manual,” she did so from the left, not from the right. And the cultural relativists who demand that we treat the dismal productions of barbaric cultures as the intellectual equivalents of Shakespeare and Homer—and tars as “racist” anyone who suggests that some cultures and their mores are better than others—are fundamentally, even proudly anti-intellectual.

These ideologies masquerade, unconvincingly, as intellectual movements, but they are simply attempts to ignore ideas, or to shoot them down with reactionary appeals to political dogmas. They treat the world of thought with the same contempt as a street thug, except that they phrase his appeal to violence in more clever terminology. In the end it is the same: power over thought, force over reason. Goebbels said that when he heard the word culture, he reached for his gun, but many of the so-called “radical” intellectuals of today avoid the challenge of thought altogether by interpreting it in terms of base politics—and not even a very sophisticated politics, but a politics centered entirely around the tribal: around racial and gender conflicts over land and money.

“Radical chic” is a leftist phenomenon, not a conservative one. It was, and is, liberals who accord street thugs and petty vandals the respectability of academic honors. The terrorist Bill Ayers? Or the terrorist Angela Davis, winner of the Lenin Peace Prize of the U.S.S.R.? She’s presidential chair at U.C. Santa Cruz. It was liberals who not only gave the anti-intellectual thug Norman Mailer pop icon status, but handed him the mantle of a respectable intellectual. The Jack Abbott case was a curiosity to them, and a source of gossip. When he stabbed his wife with a penknife at a dinner party, almost killing her in 1960, was that the end of his run as a leftist intellectual? Hardly. The left respects its anti-intellectual thugs.

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1 Macker  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:42:22am

Good morning Charles! DFCs these people are.

2 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:42:39am

We've been saying this for years?

3 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:43:30am

Progressive! Yeah, progressively insane.

4 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:43:34am
5 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:43:39am

Welcome to the left- no thought rekwired.

6 VegasRick  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:44:26am

“Radical chic” is a leftist phenomenon, not a conservative one. It was, and is, liberals who accord street thugs and petty vandals the respectability of academic honors. The terrorist Bill Ayers? Or the terrorist Angela Davis, winner of the Lenin Peace Prize of the U.S.S.R.? She’s presidential chair at U.C. Santa Cruz. It was liberals who not only gave the anti-intellectual thug Norman Mailer pop icon status, but handed him the mantle of a respectable intellectual. The Jack Abbott case was a curiosity to them, and a source of gossip. When he stabbed his wife with a penknife at a dinner party, almost killing her in 1960, was that the end of his run as a leftist intellectual? Hardly. The left respects its anti-intellectual thugs.

Added to the list, ward churshill

7 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:44:43am
8 Elcid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:44:49am
“Radical chic” is a leftist phenomenon, not a conservative one.

Cluebat, it still is.

9 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:45:05am

re: #2 Nevergiveup

We've been saying this for years?

That was my first thought. It's nice to see someone laying this out like this... but...

10 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:45:25am

SEC Charges Mark Cuban With Insider Trading

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Mr. Cuban avoided more than $750,000 in losses.

See I don't get this. 750,000 $ is chump change to him? Why do these rich guys do this shit? Yeah, I know that's why they are rich.

11 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:45:32am
12 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:45:41am
13 Thanos  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:46:05am

I'll say it again, the intellectual left is where the socons need to attack. The misplaced zeal against science is highly counterproductive. Take back the teaching colleges and our universities, not the science department if you would succeed.

14 quickjustice  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:47:32am

The Left lacks any coherent intellectual agenda, rehashing New Deal principles derived from Mussolini's Fascist Italy. What's astonishing is that even in the context of the massive historical failures of these authoritarian ideologies during the 20th Century, with millions of innocent deaths as the consequence, they're still at it.

Are they not paying attention, or have they simply abandoned any pretense of morality and humanity in their reasoning?

15 VegasRick  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:48:03am
16 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:48:16am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

From the article above:


Yet, when Lawrence Summers as President of Harvard posited exactly this--that differences in the way men and women think might have something to do with the reason women do not gravitate towards certain scientific disciplines--the resultant howling outcry from the Left cost him his job.

And rightly so..You advance to the head of Harvard you better keep your month shut. or else..
/must I buzz?

17 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:48:41am

Anti-intellectualism is another manifestation of the childish compulsion to piss upon the capital-E Establishment, parents, et cetera.

18 gman  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:48:50am

Do as I say not as I do

19 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:49:05am

I find it funny that the opinons of self-described freekthinking, "progressive" intellectuals are roughly 100% predictable.

20 livefreeor die  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:49:06am

Great article. I always find it interesting how the liberal left can "reason" itself into completely opposing viewpoints if you wait long enough. There's no logic involved-it's all knee-jerk, anti-establishment reactionism that counts as logic for them.

21 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:49:23am

"I don't tell my mother-in-law what to do. I'm not stupid. That's why I got elected president, man."
- B.H.Obama on 60 Minutes, Nov.16/08

Is that anti-intellectual enough for you?

22 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:49:33am
Many rank and file liberals believe a whole host of basic untruths, and do not bother themselves with examining their beliefs any farther than their emotional prejudices allow them. Consider the environmentalists, who believe in a wide variety of panicky untruths about the state of the earth. Al Gore made a film riddled with misleading or half-true claims. Did the left correct him or urge him to be more intellectually honest? No, they gave him an Oscar.

Sadly true- all perpetuated by the media too. That's the problem with a lot of so-called documentaries. They're anything but. It's just a fantasy movie masquerading as the truth.

23 bosforus  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:49:52am

That was very entertaining to read. Liberals' chickenssssss....are coming hoommmmmme....to roooost!

24 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:50:03am

Calling Bill Ayers a school reformer is a bit like calling Joseph Stalin an agricultural reformer.

For instance, at a November 2006 education forum in Caracas, Venezuela, with President Hugo Chávez at his side, Ayers proclaimed his support for “the profound educational reforms under way here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chávez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution. . . . I look forward to seeing how you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane.” Ayers concluded his speech by declaring that “Venezuela is poised to offer the world a new model of education—a humanizing and revolutionary model whose twin missions are enlightenment and liberation,” and then, as in days of old, raised his fist and chanted: “Viva Presidente Chávez! Viva la Revolucion Bolivariana! Hasta la Victoria Siempre!”

Ayers’s school reform agenda focuses almost exclusively on the idea of teaching for “social justice” in the classroom. This has nothing to do with the social-justice ideals of the Sermon on the Mount or Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech. Rather, Ayers and his education school comrades are explicit about the need to indoctrinate public school children with the belief that America is a racist, militarist country and that the capitalist system is inherently unfair and oppressive.

25 FrogMarch  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:50:13am
Very similar to their awe for ideological violence is the liberal’s respect for consistently leftist liars like Michael Moore. Moore was made of, by, and for liberals, and he remains a celebrity to liberals despite the fact that there is probably no more recklessly anti-intellectual a figure in America today (with the possible exception of the moronic liberal darling Cornell West). He has contempt for anything approaching a truthful description of reality or a reasonable theory of politics or economics. His work is a set of cheap thrills for those with a knee-jerk hostility to the free market. Yet those thrills don’t even add up to anything like a sensible plot. His lies and distortions are well documented, and even turn off some thoughtful liberals. Yet he is still admired by a great many others, who are more committed to the party than to the basic facts. If that isn’t anti-intellectualism, I don’t know what is.
26 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:50:16am

re: #4 taxfreekiller

"Murdoch"
Facts Count.

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

The one you posted links to this one, which is a much more entertaining read now, with 4 years of hindsight:

"Obviously," Rather added, "I would like to get the original documents if they still exist."
27 Thanos  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:50:35am

re: #20 livefreeor die

Great article. I always find it interesting how the liberal left can "reason" itself into completely opposing viewpoints if you wait long enough. There's no logic involved-it's all knee-jerk, anti-establishment reactionism that counts as logic for them.

The problem with the "anti-establishment" bit is that the left is now the establishment, they are "the man", think about the cognitive dissonance that creates.

28 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:51:34am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

From the article above:

Yet, when Lawrence Summers as President of Harvard posited exactly this--that differences in the way men and women think might have something to do with the reason women do not gravitate towards certain scientific disciplines--the resultant howling outcry from the Left cost him his job.

And yet, if he gets a benediction from The One in the course of landing a cabinet post, all will be forgiven. Leftists will say to one another: "Now is the Summers of our discontent made glorious in autumn by this son of Hawaii."

29 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:51:49am

re: #13 Thanos

I'll say it again, the intellectual left is where the socons need to attack. The misplaced zeal against science is highly counterproductive. Take back the teaching colleges and our universities, not the science department if you would succeed.

A million up-dings!

Unfortunately, many so-called "so-cons" are just as afflicted with their own right-wing version of radical chic. They're following their own herd into stylish protest. Lemmings.

30 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:51:50am
31 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:51:52am
“Radical chic” is a leftist phenomenon, not a conservative one.

When did radicalism become chic? My guess is the early 1970's. And it still continues its grip on popular culture via fashion (the intifada scarves/Che shirts) and entertainment.

32 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:51:57am

Well, this is just what ya get when you teach folks nothing of value and guard their self-esteem like rabid wolves:
"I'm Uneducated but I'm Proud of it!"

33 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:52:12am

Somali Pirates take over Saudi oil tanker? Who am i rooting for?

34 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:52:42am

Ayers’s influence on what is taught in the nation’s public schools is likely to grow in the future.

Last month, he was elected vice president for curriculum of the 25,000-member American Educational Research Association (AERA), the nation’s largest organization of education-school professors and researchers.

Ayers won the election handily, and there is no doubt that his fellow education professors knew whom they were voting for. In the short biographical statement distributed to prospective voters beforehand, Ayers listed among his scholarly books Fugitive Days, an unapologetic memoir about his ten years in the Weather Underground. The book includes dramatic accounts of how he bombed the Pentagon and other public buildings.

AERA already does a great deal to advance the social-justice teaching agenda in the nation’s schools and has established a Social Justice Division with its own executive director. With Bill Ayers now part of the organization’s national leadership, you can be sure that it will encourage even more funding and support for research on how teachers can promote left-wing ideology in the nation’s classrooms—and correspondingly less support for research on such mundane subjects as the best methods for teaching underprivileged children to read.

35 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:53:12am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

Somali Pirates take over Saudi oil tanker? Who am i rooting for?

Don't know..Here I'll put the popcorn on...

36 vxbush  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:53:35am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

From the article above:


Yet, when Lawrence Summers as President of Harvard posited exactly this--that differences in the way men and women think might have something to do with the reason women do not gravitate towards certain scientific disciplines--the resultant howling outcry from the Left cost him his job.

I am an aberration, and I have known that for years. I have been in meetings of 300 engineers and I was one of 3 gals.

The problem is that Summers had data and statistics backing him, whereas these leftists only posit the existence of sexist thought without data--and therefore, it is acceptable.

37 West Coast Freedom  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:53:38am

All this while the G20 Intellectuals are toasting our demise as World power...

Global Socialists Toast Victory over America

This isn’t “international capitalism.” It’s the victory of global socialism. The stage is perfectly set for the U.S. presidency to be occupied by a revolutionary Marxist.

38 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:53:42am

re: #30 buzzsawmonkey

"Look at the bones man!"

39 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:53:55am

re: #26 wrenchwench

I think this is the part where Rather lashes himself to the fake memos, and drowns with them. "For hate's sake, I spit my last editorial comment at thee!"

40 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:53:58am

For those who believe that there is a move to stifle descent, media mogul Murdoch has something interesting to say...

Of course, he's defending Big media, but his comments concerning maintaining a relationship with readers rings true.

41 FrogMarch  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:54:06am

Barack Obama exploits the power of crowds to chant empty slogans promising that the laws of economics can be magically suspended if we just have enough faith (“Yes, we can!”)…. And yet this is not the party of anti-intellectuals and populists?

42 Eric Cartman's Conscience  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:54:13am

Not to mention the millions and millions of inner-city dumb-dumbs that make up the Democrat Base. Sure, there are yokels in the burbs, but the cities of America are rife with savants? Why no one dares mentions literally the MILLIONS of "big-city yokels" is beyond me.

43 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:54:17am

re: #27 Thanos

The problem with the "anti-establishment" bit is that the left is now the establishment, they are "the man", think about the cognitive dissonance that creates.

Yes, they are now the de facto Establishment, but they just can't let the fiction die. They keep the Old Establishment up there as a necessary strawman.

44 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:54:20am

I think you can sum up leftist thought rather simply- it's it's good for America, then the left is against it.

45 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:54:26am

re: #35 HoosierHoops
The Special Ops guys.

46 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:55:15am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

Somali Pirates take over Saudi oil tanker? Who am i rooting for?

The barnacles!

Go barnacles!

47 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:55:38am

Mayor of Philly on now, has his hand out to the Feds.

48 notutopia  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:55:47am

Radical Chic
*spit*

OT
Do the Right Thing: Inside the Movement That's Bringing Common Sense Back to America
by Mike Huckabee (Author)

Glenn Reynolds, IN THE MAIL: Mike Huckabee's new book comes out tomorrow, and we'll be interviewing him for the first PJTV version of The Glenn and Helen Show on Wednesday. If you've got any questions you think we should ask, email him with "Huckabee Interview" in the subject line.

49 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:55:59am

re: #34 MandyManners

Ayers’s influence on what is taught in the nation’s public schools is likely to grow in the future.

The teaching of Ayers's religion in schools is allowed?
saheeeesh

50 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:55:59am
51 Thanos  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:56:02am

re: #43 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, they are now the de facto Establishment, but they just can't let the fiction die. They keep the Old Establishment up there as a necessary strawman.

Then it's time to burn that strawman.

52 DeafDog  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:56:16am

re: #41 FrogMarch

GMTA

53 Globular Cluster  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:56:22am

I highly recommend "Intellectuals" by Paul Johnson. A great deal depends, however, on how you define "intellectual". Johnson makes the distinction between a "Man of Letters" and a person who values ideas over people, that is, a person who wishes to transform the world via theoretical construct, plucked from thin air. Under this definition, John proceeds to expose that hypocrisy in their personal lives as well as the shabbiness of their ideas. The moral is to be wary of these intellectuals, who are no more qualified to recommend societal agendas than the man on the street, and what is worse, they have recommended murderous ideologies such as Nazism, Marxism, and violence in general.

54 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:56:39am

OT (Yet related),

The warmest October on record was actually September

A surreal scientific blunder last week raised a huge question mark about the temperature records that underpin the worldwide alarm over global warming. On Monday, Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), which is run by Al Gore's chief scientific ally, Dr James Hansen, and is one of four bodies responsible for monitoring global temperatures, announced that last month was the hottest October on record.

This was startling. Across the world there were reports of unseasonal snow and plummeting temperatures last month, from the American Great Plains to China, and from the Alps to New Zealand. China's official news agency reported that Tibet had suffered its "worst snowstorm ever". In the US, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration registered 63 local snowfall records and 115 lowest-ever temperatures for the month, and ranked it as only the 70th-warmest October in 114 years.

So what explained the anomaly? GISS's computerised temperature maps seemed to show readings across a large part of Russia had been up to 10 degrees higher than normal. But when expert readers of the two leading warming-sceptic blogs, Watts Up With That and Climate Audit, began detailed analysis of the GISS data they made an astonishing discovery. The reason for the freak figures was that scores of temperature records from Russia and elsewhere were not based on October readings at all. Figures from the previous month had simply been carried over and repeated two months running.

(Hat Tip: Hot Air)

55 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:56:50am

re: #47 pingjockey

Mayor of Philly on now, has his hand out to the Feds.

ya man, all those philly votes gives him the right to put his hand out
/////

56 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:57:04am

Yeah, and one of my fellow teacher tried to argue that the Left is full of intellectuals, because college graduates tend to vote Democrat....he even tried to google up some numbers for support.

So I say - since when did a college degree make an intellectual? They're effectively re-education camps for the Left anyway. Big ol' shocker there that the minions vote for them, huh?

57 Spiny Norman  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:57:38am

re: #34 MandyManners

Ayers’s influence on what is taught in the nation’s public schools is likely to grow in the future.

AERA already does a great deal to advance the social-justice teaching agenda in the nation’s schools and has established a Social Justice Division with its own executive director. With Bill Ayers now part of the organization’s national leadership, you can be sure that it will encourage even more funding and support for research on how teachers can promote left-wing ideology in the nation’s classrooms—and correspondingly less support for research on such mundane subjects as the best methods for teaching underprivileged children to read.

America is already headed towards intellectual and scientific stagnation, this shit will only accelerate our decline. I weep for our future.

58 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:57:44am

re: #55 outsidephilly
Oh crap!

59 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:57:45am

Good article. I've often found that the Lefties I talk to who say they want to keep an open mind and listen to all view points are the first ones to turn snide and nasty as soon as you challenge or contradict them.

60 vxbush  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:57:55am

re: #53 Globular Cluster

I highly recommend "Intellectuals" by Paul Johnson. A great deal depends, however, on how you define "intellectual". Johnson makes the distinction between a "Man of Letters" and a person who values ideas over people, that is, a person who wishes to transform the world via theoretical construct, plucked from thin air. Under this definition, John proceeds to expose that hypocrisy in their personal lives as well as the shabbiness of their ideas. The moral is to be wary of these intellectuals, who are no more qualified to recommend societal agendas than the man on the street, and what is worse, they have recommended murderous ideologies such as Nazism, Marxism, and violence in general.

Must concur. I read this book recently after a lizard mentioned it (perhaps Cluster himself) and found it a great read.

61 DeafDog  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:58:08am

re: #47 pingjockey

Mayor of Philly on now, has his hand out to the Feds.

Mayor of Atlanta was crying for federal funds on CNBC this AM, too.

This is getting worse than ridiciulous. The Dems will do for the country what they did already for Michigan. I can't bear to watch.

62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:58:20am

Speaking of anti-intellectualism...

Donovan McNabb did not know that there was a such thing as a tie in the NFL.

"I didn't know that,'' said McNabb, who played a leading role in keeping it tied. "I've never been part of a tie. I never even knew it was in the rule book. I was looking forward to getting the opportunity to get out there and try to drive to win the game. But unfortunately with the rules, we settled with a tie.''

Wow.

63 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:58:20am

re: #54 Dirk Diggler

OT (Yet related),

The warmest October on record was actually September


(Hat Tip: Hot Air)

Global Warming is altering our calendar!

We must appoint Gore to be the Everything Czar immediately.

64 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:58:24am

re: #31 experiencedtraveller

When did radicalism become chic? My guess is the early 1970's. And it still continues its grip on popular culture via fashion (the intifada scarves/Che shirts) and entertainment.

Pre-dates the 70's. It was alive in the 50's romanticization of "the Beat Generation" of the post-War era.

65 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:58:58am

re: #59 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
They do not have open minds....unless it agrees with their world view or feelings.

66 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:59:23am

It doesn't take much intelligence to want free stuff but it actually takes some thinking and logic to realize that free stuff does have a price- that's it's harmful to society as well as entrapment for the individual.

67 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:59:47am

re: #51 Thanos

Then it's time to burn that strawman.

Yes!

68 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 8:59:57am

"Alinsky considered himself a realist above all, the ultimate pragmatist.” (American Thinker, Aug. 30, 2008). “As a confirmed atheist, Alinsky believed that the here and now is all there is, and therefore had no qualms about assorted versions of morality in the pursuit of worldly power. He didn’t coddle his radical acolytes or encourage their bourgeois distinctions between good and evil when it came to transferring power from the Haves to the Have Nots. Alinsky saw the already formed church communities as being the perfect springboards for agitation and creating bonds for demanding goods and services.”

69 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:13am

re: #55 outsidephilly

ya man, all those philly votes gives him the right to put his hand out
/////

I'm still pissed the Navy pulled out of the shipyard there. I'm don't think it was smart, had any vision and it hurt the city after hundreds of years of having a base there. short sighted in my view.

70 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:28am

re: #53 Globular Cluster

I'll add it to my list- thanks.

71 DeafDog  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:33am

re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of anti-intellectualism...

Donovan McNabb did not know that there was a such thing as a tie in the NFL.


Wow.

He sucked on Sunday. The E's are my team and I've been a McNabb defender for yours. I'm getting antsy now, though. If the E's miss the playoffs, he's out.

72 Macker  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:35am

re: #61 DeafDog

That's one reason why I left MI in the first place.

73 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:39am

re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of anti-intellectualism...

Donovan McNabb did not know that there was a such thing as a tie in the NFL.

Wow.

. . . , now don't think for a minute that anti-intellectualism bent permeates throughout all of the philly region!
/////

74 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:39am

re: #61 DeafDog
If the donks get to run amok with our money, the programs are going to make the New Deal and the Great Society look like a pink tea party.

75 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:00:54am

When I read the part about all cultures being equal, so to speak, it reminded me of the old story (can't remember where I read it):

A young British naval lieutenant is sent to the South Seas to treat with a local king. During the discussions, the king tells the young lieutenant:

"You must understand, in my culture we eat people."

The lieutenant responded:

"And you, sire, must understand that, in my culture, we shoot people who eat people."

Ended the problem.

All cultures are equal. Nope.

76 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:01:00am

re: #31 experiencedtraveller

When did radicalism become chic? My guess is the early 1970's. And it still continues its grip on popular culture via fashion (the intifada scarves/Che shirts) and entertainment.

The mid to late 60's when protesting against the Vietnam war became fashionable. Still strange that the Left was protesting one of its biggest progressive icons, LBJ.

77 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:01:10am

Barack Obama is now the Establishment. Down with the Establishment.
I am suddenly hip again.

78 kynna  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:01:23am

The left is really, really good at labeling and marginalizing. Anything they don't agree with gets slapped with a label and defined as sinister/foolish.

Some conservative 'thinkers' do the same thing -- *coughKathleenParkercough* *coughGeorgeWillcough* -- either follow precisely their example, or be downsized.

79 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:01:45am

The right wing anti-intellectuals are against evolution because they don't like Darwin's thesis in The Origins of Life. The left wing anti-intellectuals are against evolution because they don't like Darwin's thesis in The Ascent of Man.

The left's position is that while all other life may have evolved, and humanity may at some point in the distant past have evolved, evolution is

(a) over

(b) ended with all human populations at exactly the same point with respect to every feature that makes any difference at anything...notwithstanding the evidence of the Olympics, where Kenyans do better at long distance running than they do at swimming or sprinting, Chinese do better at swimming and gymnastics than at sprinting, and so on.

80 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:02:04am

re: #69 HoosierHoops

I'm still pissed the Navy pulled out of the shipyard there. I'm don't think it was smart, had any vision and it hurt the city after hundreds of years of having a base there. short sighted in my view.

. . . , that was very hard on many families in the area!

81 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:02:08am

re: #77 rawmuse

Barack Obama is now the Establishment. Down with the Establishment.
I am suddenly hip again.

Thigh Will Be Done.

82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:02:10am

re: #77 rawmuse

Barack Obama is now the Establishment. Down with the Establishment.
I am suddenly hip again.

Whatchoo got in that pipe, man? Pass it over 'eer!

83 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:02:15am

re: #69 HoosierHoops
Wasn't the Navy. It was the Congressional Base Reorganization. They closed bases all over the damn place.

84 Spiny Norman  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:02:16am

re: #54 Dirk Diggler

OT (Yet related),

The warmest October on record was actually September

A surreal scientific blunder last week raised a huge question mark about the temperature records that underpin the worldwide alarm over global warming. On Monday, Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), which is run by Al Gore's chief scientific ally, Dr James Hansen, and is one of four bodies responsible for monitoring global temperatures, announced that last month was the hottest October on record.

Recipient of a $720,000 grant from a George Soros front group for "the politicization of science". There's some "anti-intellectualism" in action.

85 debutaunt  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:02:27am

re: #41 FrogMarch

Barack Obama exploits the power of crowds to chant empty slogans promising that the laws of economics can be magically suspended if we just have enough faith (“Yes, we can!”)…. And yet this is not the party of anti-intellectuals and populists?

WHAT-A-WE-WANT?

86 sawblade88  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:03:19am

re: #59 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Good article. I've often found that the Lefties I talk to who say they want to keep an open mind and listen to all view points are the first ones to turn snide and nasty as soon as you challenge or contradict them.

Yes indeed. And these are the same people who want to "talk about" every problem with our enemies.

87 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:03:42am

re: #69 HoosierHoops

I'm still pissed the Navy pulled out of the shipyard there. I'm don't think it was smart, had any vision and it hurt the city after hundreds of years of having a base there. short sighted in my view.

Have you been down there, lately?

88 howyadoin  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:03:46am

re: #42 Eric Cartman's Conscience

'Cause that would be racist!"
/

89 Shug  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:04:02am

Clean and articulate thugs

90 Spiny Norman  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:04:13am

re: #83 pingjockey

Wasn't the Navy. It was the Congressional Base Reorganization. They closed bases all over the damn place.

Most of which were based on political considerations, rather than the real needs of National Defense.

91 debutaunt  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:04:39am

re: #54 Dirk Diggler

Science - be damned.

92 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:04:45am

re: #63 Occasional Reader

Global Warming is altering our calendar!

We must appoint Gore to be the Everything Czar immediately.

As The One promised, the seas would begin to receed if we no more than elected him. See?

Now, shut up and Believe!

93 J.S.  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:04:58am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

Plus, Summers was simply proposing tentative answers to a perplexing question (Why aren't there more women in the fields of engineering and the sciences?), and he was putting forward possible explanations (and the degree to which these tentative explanations accounted for seeing fewer women in certain academic disciplines). And for that he loses his job. (another instance of political correctness run amok.)

94 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:05:03am

re: #80 outsidephilly

. . . , that was very hard on many families in the area!

I worked for the DOD at time..I was one of many that were sent to Philly to help close the base..I was TDY 6 months in Philly.

95 tfc3rid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:05:10am

I just like how all of a sudden The One says on 60 Minutes that we should not worry about the budget deficits in order to bring about a revival of the economy... Bigger government is ok and don't worry about growing deficits for the next 2 years or so...

And everyone says, eh, deficits are ok... If Obama says we have to live with them, it's all right...

Shoot me... This is an alternate universe, I am certain of that...

96 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:05:29am

re: #89 Shug

Clean and articulate thugs

...and they got money now, don't forget how much money they have. And their hard-earned wealth...did I mention many of them have some bucks?

97 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:05:31am

re: #68 MandyManners

"Alinsky considered himself a realist above all, the ultimate pragmatist.” (American Thinker, Aug. 30, 2008). “As a confirmed atheist, Alinsky believed that the here and now is all there is, and therefore had no qualms about assorted versions of morality in the pursuit of worldly power. He didn’t coddle his radical acolytes or encourage their bourgeois distinctions between good and evil when it came to transferring power from the Haves to the Have Nots. Alinsky saw the already formed church communities as being the perfect springboards for agitation and creating bonds for demanding goods and services.”

Thank for bringing that out again.

We are not fighting against the Chicago Machine.

We are fighting the Alinsky Machine.

98 Elcid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:05:37am

These acts may stop if and when Mogadishu is flattened…Beside the fact WE, the U.S., owe Somalia one.

As to THE "intellectuals"...Breezed through the lists and may have missed the faux Native American, Ward Churchill.

99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:06:09am

Was asked last night, "Where'd you go to college?" When I said, "I didn't." The questioner almost apologized for asking.

I said, "I just went to work. Glad I didn't waste four years."

Funny, when people ask you if went to college and you say no, they almost act like they just asked a fat girl if she was pregnant.

Really. It's okay. I would have made less money had I gone to college.

100 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:06:39am

re: #83 pingjockey

Wasn't the Navy. It was the Congressional Base Reorganization. They closed bases all over the damn place.

I hear you ping..but the navy was pushing several bases..

101 Golem Akbar  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:06:44am

I hope this is the beginning of the turn-around, from vilifying conservatives to once again trying to understand what freedom really means.

102 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:07:17am

re: #94 HoosierHoops

I worked for the DOD at time..I was one of many that were sent to Philly to help close the base..I was TDY 6 months in Philly.

I'm sure that memory brings a lump in your throat . . . , its an amazing base, don't ya think - yep, its a world all in itself! I would have loved to live there SIGH

103 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:07:28am

re: #90 Spiny Norman
That is a fact. And the congress critters managed to keep thier skirts clean by getting excongress critters to do the dirty work!

104 realwest  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:07:41am

Good morning Charles! Sorry I got here late, but life intervened!
While I have a few nits to pick with Timothy Sandefur's article (mostly with his use of the term "Liberal" when he really means Leftists and "Ultra-Leftists") I just had to THANK YOU CHARLES for one of the more interesting threads we've had out here.

105 bellamags  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:08:01am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

From the article above:


Yet, when Lawrence Summers as President of Harvard posited exactly this--that differences in the way men and women think might have something to do with the reason women do not gravitate towards certain scientific disciplines--the resultant howling outcry from the Left cost him his job.

It seems that the left does not want to distinguish between any groups, be it by intelligence, anatomy, biology or behavior. However, they want to celebrate "diversity". Hypocrites. Don't treat me different, but remember I am different.

106 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:08:16am
107 Athos  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:08:34am

re: #97 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We are fighting the Alinsky Machine.

Which is basically the same machine and ideology that the Jacob
ins / Marx & Engels kicked off.

108 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:08:36am

Too bad the writer is not much of an intellectual himself. I could point out numerous flaws, but let it be said, just for the sake of accuracy, that it was Goering, not Goebbels, who reached for his gun when he heard the word "culture". Pfft.

109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:09:08am

I am so freaking naive.

Israeli mob boss killed in car bombing

Really? Jewish Mobsters?

110 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:09:23am

Ha, Rush leads off with Deficits are suddenly ok, bailing out the UAW and of course the Gorebull warming lie!

111 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:09:27am

re: #95 tfc3rid

I noticed that. Funny thing, I happened to spend yesterday afternoon reading Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism" - especially the chapter on FDR and the New Deal. Actually had the book on my lap during the interview.

Imagine my shock when I heard Mr. Obama use terms like "change", "action", "experiment", "just try something - if it doesn't work try something else", and so on.

Right out of Mr. Goldberg's book...almost word for word.

112 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:09:32am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I would have made less money had I gone to college.

Yeah. I love that the most successful small business owners I know have no college degrees. I currently make less money than I did as a college senior and am the happiest I have EVER been in my life.

113 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:09:56am

re: #86 sawblade88

Yes indeed. And these are the same people who want to "talk about" every problem with our enemies.

I always posed them with a hypothetical question. Say someone decided that the only way they can live was for them to die, now talk them out of it. They haven't come up with a good arguement yet. The first thing they always ask is "Why?", never considering that it might not matter.

114 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:10:40am

bbl

115 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:10:52am

re: #105 bellamags

It seems that the left does not want to distinguish between any groups, be it by intelligence, anatomy, biology or behavior. However, they want to celebrate "diversity". Hypocrites. Don't treat me different, but remember I am different.

Actually they want to treat groups differently as well, otherwise why are there all the affirmative action and hate crimes laws, for instance?

116 DeafDog  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:10:58am

re: #95 tfc3rid


Of course, he's said the opposite up to this point.

Did the interviewer call him on it?

117 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:11:31am

re: #108 Cato the Elder
By all means, point out the flaws. Enlighten us 'proles! /////

118 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:11:41am

re: #104 realwest

Good morning Charles! Sorry I got here late, but life intervened!
While I have a few nits to pick with Timothy Sandefur's article (mostly with his use of the term "Liberal" when he really means Leftists and "Ultra-Leftists") I just had to THANK YOU CHARLES for one of the more interesting threads we've had out here.

Hi Realwest! this whole thing about being off work and blogging from home is fun...There is nothing on daytime TV but stupid ads for stupid gadgets..So now at least i know why half of America has dumbed down...It's daytime TV..Don't say i didn't warn you.

119 Shug  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:12:13am

re: #96 hermit

...and they got money now, don't forget how much money they have. And their hard-earned wealth...did I mention many of them have some bucks?

Ayers wearing his red star shirt as he walks into his Million dollar Chicago home.

Unless that red star represents Macy's, he's a fraud

120 Hard Right  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:12:39am

re: #10 Nevergiveup

SEC Charges Mark Cuban With Insider Trading

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Mr. Cuban avoided more than $750,000 in losses.

See I don't get this. 750,000 $ is chump change to him? Why do these rich guys do this shit? Yeah, I know that's why they are rich.

He thought he was untouchable. He may find out otherwise.

121 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:12:57am

re: #116 DeafDog

Of course, he's said the opposite up to this point.

Did the interviewer call him on it?

The media disrespect The One? HA!

122 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:12:58am
123 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:13:00am

re: #119 Shug

Ayers wearing his red star shirt as he walks into his Million dollar Chicago home.

Unless that red star represents Macy's, he's a fraud

Even if it does, he still is a fraud.

124 tfc3rid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:13:11am

re: #116 DeafDog

Of course, he's said the opposite up to this point.

Did the interviewer call him on it?

No, Kroft continued playing footsie...

125 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:13:22am

re: #116 DeafDog
Umm....No. It was 60 Minutes. On the other obambi network!

126 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:13:24am

re: #120 Hard Right

Jail time for mr. cuban

127 bellamags  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:13:29am

re: #115 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually they want to treat groups differently as well, otherwise why are there all the affirmative action and hate crimes laws, for instance?

don't point it out!

128 Hard Right  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:14:02am

re: #119 Shug

Ayers wearing his red star shirt as he walks into his Million dollar Chicago home.

Unless that red star represents Macy's, he's a fraud

That's typical of the type. Che lived in a mansion and wore a Rolex. Bothe stolen from their rightful owners. IIRC, the man who had owned the Rolex lost his life.

129 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:14:16am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was asked last night, "Where'd you go to college?" When I said, "I didn't." The questioner almost apologized for asking.
I said, "I just went to work. Glad I didn't waste four years."
Funny, when people ask you if went to college and you say no, they almost act like they just asked a fat girl if she was pregnant.
Really. It's okay. I would have made less money had I gone to college.

I love irony.
But how dare you make them so uncomfortable - you should have lied to make them feel good. Just like someone (who is now very famous and powerful) did repeatedly.

130 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:14:24am

re: #83 pingjockey

Wasn't the Navy. It was the Congressional Base Reorganization. They closed bases all over the damn place.

Yup and when Lieberman saved Groton, the democrats in Connecticut sure rewarded him?

131 Student of Objectivism  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:14:49am

Socialists are intellectual midgets. All the democrats I know are clueless.

132 Hard Right  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:14:53am

re: #126 HoosierHoops

Jail time for mr. cuban

I really hope so.

133 vapig  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:09am

OT (and full of irony), but something I wanted to share:

THE END OF WHITE GUILT:
White Guilt Emancipation Declaration

We, black American citizens of the United States of America and of the National Black Republican Association, do hereby declare that our fellow white American citizens are now, henceforth and forever more free of White Guilt.

This freedom from White Guilt was duly earned by the election of Barack Hussein Obama, a black man, to be our president by a majority of white Americans based solely on the color of his skin.

Freedom is not free, and we trust that the price paid for this freedom from White Guilt is worth the sacrifice, since Obama is a socialist who does not share the values of average Americans and will use the office of the presidency to turn America into a failed socialist nation.

Granted this November 4, 2008 - the day Barack Hussein Obama was elected as the first black president and the first socialist president of the United States of America.

134 DeafDog  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:32am

re: #121 FurryOldGuyJeans

re: #124 tfc3rid

re: #125 pingjockey

Thanks. I saw that the zero was being interviewed, but I have not yet made it to the point where I can watch him.

135 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:38am

re: #130 Nevergiveup
His mind wasn'r right. He had to be expunged from the collective!

136 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:44am

re: #132 Hard Right

I really hope so.

Probably not. Unless he lied to the feds. that is what got martha in jail, not the inside trading.

137 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:44am

re: #119 Shug

As I see it -- game the system to get the paper (degree) required to get you the money. Take over the system to enable comrades to get the paper - getting the money. Destroy the credibility of the system so EVERYBODY can have a paper - and some money.

Now doesn't everyone feel better? Except those of you with useless bits of paper who think you're too good to actually work for your money.

138 bellamags  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:51am

re: #122 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, they want to distinguish between all groups--particularly, they want to make the distinction between "worthy, victim" groups and "unworthy, victimizing" groups. And they want different treatment for these two groups.

"Diversity" represents the destruction of the concept of equality; the destruction of equal rights under law; and, hence, the destruction of liberty.

Utterly antithetical to the concept of universality, since it deals with particular rights and adjustments based on special pleading, "diversity" is also utterly opposed to the spirit of the university. Ironically, however, it is in the university that "diversity" most flourishes. "Diversity" is an intellectual retrovirus that attacks and destroys its host.

Then why want equality for everyone! Gay marriage etc. They don't want it to be called a "civil union" because they want no distinction between hetero and homosexual marriage.

139 jemima  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:51am

re: #109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am so freaking naive.

Israeli mob boss killed in car bombing

Really? Jewish Mobsters?

Bugsy Siegel
Meyer Lansky
Right?

140 Hard Right  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:53am

re: #131 Student of Objectivism

Socialists are intellectual midgets. All the democrats I know are clueless.

That's a requirement to being a dem.

141 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:15:56am

re: #100 HoosierHoops

I hear you ping..but the navy was pushing several bases..

Many bases were closed for logistical reason, especially air bases. The commitee decided rather than buying equipment that was rarely used at several bases, they could consolidate several services onto one base so they could maximize equipment usage and minimize purchasing. Of course, this then places more sensitive equipment and materials in a smaller area, making it a better target. Think pre-Pearl harbor Hawaii, where they had the bright idea to line up all the fighters in the middle of the airstrips so they could spot saboteurs trying to reach them more easily, with only a few people realizing what a target they would make for a bomber.

142 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:16:04am
143 Hard Right  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:16:42am

re: #136 Nevergiveup

Probably not. Unless he lied to the feds. that is what got martha in jail, not the inside trading.

That was my thinking...

144 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:16:43am

I will always give Larry Summers credit for having essentially told race-hustling fakeademic Cornell West "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out".

145 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:16:44am

re: #115 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually they want to treat groups differently as well, otherwise why are there all the affirmative action and hate crimes laws, for instance?

Hey! You! Get back in your pigeon hole or they'll shoot!

146 bellamags  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:17:09am

re: #138 bellamags

Then why they want equality for everyone! Gay marriage etc. They don't want it to be called a "civil union" because they want no distinction between hetero and homosexual marriage.

PIMF

147 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:17:13am

re: #134 DeafDog
Me neither. Some other brave souls did. Just like when Dirty Harry Reid and No Blink Pelousi come on, the channel is immediately changed.

148 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:17:32am

re: #143 Hard Right

That was my thinking...

And if his lawyers are any good. He never even talked to the feds!

149 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:18:00am

re: #130 Nevergiveup

Yup and when Lieberman saved Groton, the democrats in Connecticut sure rewarded him?

Heh, heh. The democrats didn't, but the people of Connecticut did. Hey, Sen. Lieberman's back in the Senate, and the democrat candidate is back in day care.

150 Pyrocles  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:18:39am

I was shocked when I first started college, and realized that an approved "intellectual" was anyone whose proclaimed idea were "different" from the mainstream. It didn't matter how absurd the ideas were, just that they were "alternative". And because of Postmodernism, all ideas are equally valid, across all cultural lines. Right/wrong, good/evil do not exist. "Wackos" whose ideas were completely outrageous and even laughable or offensive were just as worthy of serious academic discussion as anyone else. Complete nihilism of thought.

151 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:18:41am
152 Golem Akbar  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:19:11am

re: #109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am so freaking naive.

Israeli mob boss killed in car bombing

Really? Jewish Mobsters?

Ever heard of Meyer Lansky?

153 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:19:34am

re: #11 MandyManners

Get a load of these intellectuals who support Ayers.

Mandy, the list is formatted as a Google spreadsheet and can be searched for specific words, at least using the Find function in FireFox. I assume you can do so in other browsers. Type in the name of your favorite college or university and see who pops up.

154 FrogMarch  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:21:01am

re: #61 DeafDog

Mayor of Atlanta was crying for federal funds on CNBC this AM, too.

This is getting worse than ridiciulous. The Dems will do for the country what they did already for Michigan. I can't bear to watch.

How come so many blue states are asking for a hand-out/bailout?

/rhetorical question. we know the answer.

155 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:21:20am

re: #140 Hard Right

That's a requirement to being a dem.

I'd like to hope that with an opener like the article Charles posted we could try to avoid the "they're the dumb-heads" "Yeah, big fat dumb-heads" fun & games. They think we're gun-totin', straw chewin idiots....we think they're ...well...idiots.

156 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:21:31am

re: #152 Golem Akbar

Ever heard of Meyer Lansky?

Or Bugsy Siegel?

157 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:21:39am

re: #142 buzzsawmonkey

"Intellectual little people," please.

/hurl

Sorry, it's a bad hobbit.

158 ladycatnip  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:22:18am

#95 tfc3rid

I just like how all of a sudden The One says on 60 Minutes that we should not worry about the budget deficits in order to bring about a revival of the economy... Bigger government is ok and don't worry about growing deficits for the next 2 years or so...

And everyone says, eh, deficits are ok... If Obama says we have to live with them, it's all right...

Shoot me... This is an alternate universe, I am certain of that...

You got that right. The hypocrisy of the left can make the head explode. If it's a deficit under a Republican admin the screams are for heads to roll. If it's under their man's rule then we can all relax and sing songs around the campfire.

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:22:39am

re: #156 subsailor68

Or Bugsy Siegel?

Isn't it a bit early for a Valentine's Day thread?

160 Dianna  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:22:40am

re: #156 subsailor68

Or Bugsy Siegel?

I will resist asking if you think Bugsy was the Fisher King.

/Tim Powers references. Promise!

161 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:23:46am
162 debutaunt  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:24:13am

Sopranos -- Hesch

163 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:24:17am

Sandefur makes good points and bad ones. The difficult part of all intellectual activities is admitting the assumptions they're based on. The next hardest part is admitting you can't necessarily reach the conclusion you'd most like with those assumptions.

Deconstructivism and moral and cultural relativism have their good points, much as I dislike admitting it. The left has just taken those ideas well beyond the guardrail at the clifftop curve in the road.

164 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:25:53am

re: #160 Dianna

The expert on this subject, Dapper Salvatore (in pinstripe, spats and fedora), has spoken.

/keeping a damned wary eye on that violin case

165 tfc3rid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:26:14am

re: #161 ploome hineni

Obama is buying votes for the Dems for the foreseeable future...

166 Hard Right  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:26:47am

re: #148 Nevergiveup

And if his lawyers are any good. He never even talked to the feds!

Ugly fine is what I figured he'd get.

167 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:26:49am

Are the people in NYC brain dead? The Mayors' latest brain storm....Get the salt out of the city. Yep, no smoking, no salt, pretty soon I expect them to resurrect Carrie Nation and outlaw booze.

168 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:27:13am

re: #165 tfc3rid

Obama is buying votes for the Dems for the foreseeable future...

Bread and circuses for the 21st Century.

169 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:27:15am

re: #160 Dianna

I will resist asking if you think Bugsy was the Fisher King.

/Tim Powers references. Promise!

I haven't yet read Tim Powers....I know, bad on me. Which novel is that covered in?

(BTW, I was working as an agent in L.A. years ago when the screenplay for "The Fisher King" came across my desk. I thought it was great, but couldn't get any of our clients into the film.

....which is one of the reasons I don't do that anymore.)

170 Jack Reacher  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:27:48am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've earned surprised looks from time to time when I mention that Bill Gates and Michael Dell--both billionaires by age 40--are college drop-outs. They were too busy starting businesses that would make them rich, so didn't have time to continue schooling.

171 Golem Akbar  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:28:45am

re: #156 subsailor68

Or Bugsy Siegel?

Kosher Nostra?

172 tfc3rid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:29:19am

re: #167 pingjockey

Are the people in NYC brain dead? The Mayors' latest brain storm....Get the salt out of the city. Yep, no smoking, no salt, pretty soon I expect them to resurrect Carrie Nation and outlaw booze.

Some of us are not but 70% of the electorate is...

173 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:29:24am

re: #170 Jack Reacher

I've earned surprised looks from time to time when I mention that Bill Gates and Michael Dell--both billionaires by age 40--are college drop-outs. They were too busy starting businesses that would make them rich, so didn't have time to continue schooling.

Yet both need thousands of heavily-schooled engineers (and lawyers) to keep their businesses in business.

174 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:29:27am
175 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:30:15am

re: #171 Golem Akbar

Kosher Nostra?

LOL!

176 Sabnen  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:32:01am

re: #95 tfc3rid

I just like how all of a sudden The One says on 60 Minutes that we should not worry about the budget deficits in order to bring about a revival of the economy... Bigger government is ok and don't worry about growing deficits for the next 2 years or so...

And everyone says, eh, deficits are ok... If Obama says we have to live with them, it's all right...

Shoot me... This is an alternate universe, I am certain of that...

It is obvious . . . you are resisting re-education Comrade tfc3rid.

Comrade Summers was successfully re-educated and with hard work, a suspension of belief in all you know that you too can be welcomed back into the party.

177 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:32:13am

Speaking of anti-intellectualism, here is a fascinating history of the the financial crisis, created by the anti-intellectual belief in the permanence of asset bubbles:

The Death of Planet Finance

Until very recently, the best way for China to employ its vast population was by exporting manufactured goods to the spendthrift U.S. consumer. To ensure that those exports were irresistibly cheap, China had to fight the tendency for its currency to strengthen against the dollar by buying literally billions of dollars on world markets. In 2006, Chinese holdings of dollars reached 700 billion. Other Asian and Middle Eastern economies adopted much the same strategy.

The benefits for the United States were manifold. Asian imports kept down U.S. inflation. Asian labor kept down U.S. wage costs. Above all, Asian savings kept down U.S. interest rates. But there was a catch. The more Asia was willing to lend to the United States, the more Americans were willing to borrow. The Asian savings glut was thus the underlying cause of the surge in bank lending, bond issuance, and new derivative contracts that Planet Finance witnessed after 2000. It was the underlying cause of the hedge-fund population explosion. It was the underlying reason why private-equity partnerships were able to borrow money left, right, and center to finance leveraged buyouts. And it was the underlying reason why the U.S. mortgage market was so awash with cash by 2006 that you could get a 100 percent mortgage with no income, no job, and no assets.
On Planet Finance it may have made sense to borrow billions of dollars to finance a massive speculation on the future prices of American houses, and then to erect on the back of this trade a vast inverted pyramid of incomprehensible securities and derivatives.

But back here on Planet Earth it suddenly seems like an extraordinary popular delusion.

178 Nevergiveup  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:32:20am

re: #149 subsailor68

Heh, heh. The democrats didn't, but the people of Connecticut did. Hey, Sen. Lieberman's back in the Senate, and the democrat candidate is back in day care.

And they built a brand new state of the art dental center there also!

179 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:32:26am

re: #171 Golem Akbar

Kosher Nostra?

And let's not forget:

Once Upon a Time in America

180 tfc3rid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:32:41am

re: #176 Sabnen

It is obvious . . . you are resisting re-education Comrade tfc3rid.

Comrade Summers was successfully re-educated and with hard work, a suspension of belief in all you know that you too can be welcomed back into the party.

That's ok, I'll start my own resistance movement... Together, the rebels can defeat the Empire!

181 DaddyG  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:32:44am

re: #108 Cato the Elder

Too bad the writer is not much of an intellectual himself. I could point out numerous flaws, but let it be said, just for the sake of accuracy, that it was Goering, not Goebbels, who reached for his gun when he heard the word "culture". Pfft.

(WWII era ditty)
Hitler, he's only got one ball
Goering, has two but very small
Himmler, has something similer
but poor old Goebbels, has no balls at all!

182 wahabicorridor  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:36:26am

Thams Sowell had a very good piece about this yesterday.

Intellectuals are poseurs

It would be no feat to fill a big book with all the things on which intellectuals were grossly mistaken, just in the 20th century - far more so than ordinary people. History fully vindicates the late William F. Buckley's view that he would rather be ruled by people represented by the first 100 names in the Boston phone book than by the faculty of Harvard.

How have intellectuals managed to be so wrong, so often? By thinking that because they are knowledgeable - or even expert - within some narrow band out of the vast spectrum of human concerns, they are wise guides to the masses and to the rulers of the nation.

But the ignorance of Ph.D.s is still ignorance and high-IQ groupthink is still groupthink, which is the antithesis of real thinking.

However, this 'intellectual poseur' is not limited to the left. I think much of the anti-Palin attacks from the right ala Peggy Noonan is due to an intellectual snobbery and may be the first shot across the bow in a culture war w/in the conservative/Republican right.

183 DaddyG  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:37:53am

re: #161 ploome hineni

..I don;t think we had any idea how pervasive and comprehensive the Nobama campaign was


Who supplied the Obama campaign with the employee lists for the agencies where the letters were addressed?! Or were they distributed by the agency leadership? ...and in either case how is this not using Federal money or resources for campaigning?

184 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:38:56am

re: #181 DaddyG

(WWII era ditty)
Hitler, he's only got one ball
Goering, has two but very small
Himmler, has something similer
but poor old Goebbels, has no balls at all!

While I know the ditty is propaganda, out of the four Goebbels was the one that had the most children (6).

185 AuntAcid  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:39:30am

Listen up worker bees - you work for the hive or you don't work.

186 wiffersnapper  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:43:06am

Great article!

187 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:43:16am

re: #182 wahabicorridor

The "problem" with Palin is that McCain had the temerity to choose someone not vetted by the GOP elites.

188 gregindallas  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:45:41am

re: #6 VegasRick

Ran in to Ward a few weeks ago at Denver airport. I was hanging out in the smokers lounge, he came thru the door and no one went anywhere near him. Actually made extra room for him at the window. Libs don't fly much. Business Class - they call it that for a reason.

189 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:48:12am

Anyone can use a big word but not everyone knows what it means (i.e.- the left).

190 ladycatnip  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:51:07am

#163 Crazy Diamond

Deconstructivism and moral and cultural relativism have their good points, much as I dislike admitting it. The left has just taken those ideas well beyond the guardrail at the clifftop curve in the road.

And what good points would those be?

191 wahabicorridor  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:51:47am

re: #187 FurryOldGuyJeans

The "problem" with Palin is that McCain had the temerity to choose someone not vetted by the GOP elites.

Whic is why they went rip shit saying McCAIN hadn't properly vetted her

192 Dasher  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:54:25am

re: #153 Son of the Black Dog

Mandy, the list is formatted as a Google spreadsheet and can be searched for specific words, at least using the Find function in FireFox. I assume you can do so in other browsers. Type in the name of your favorite college or university and see who pops up.

Or you can copy and paste the list into a spread sheet and sort by institute

193 Basho  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:55:17am

re: #170 Jack Reacher

I've earned surprised looks from time to time when I mention that Bill Gates and Michael Dell--both billionaires by age 40--are college drop-outs. They were too busy starting businesses that would make them rich, so didn't have time to continue schooling.

C'mon, college isn't a trade school. I know a lot of people go with the expectations to become millionaires, but that's not and has never been its purpose.

194 hermit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:58:06am

re: #193 Basho

C'mon, college isn't a trade school. I know a lot of people go with the expectations to become millionaires, but that's not and has never been its purpose.

that's what I was trying to say in my #137

195 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:59:08am

re: #95 tfc3rid

Did you really expect Obama to do anything differently? He's going to try and do what he has said he will do. God help us.

196 Spiny Norman  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:06:04am

re: #195 Iron Fist

Did you really expect Obama to do anything differently? He's going to try and do what he has said he will do. God help us.

Big Zero's first order of business will be to get reelected. That in itself may "moderate" his agenda.

197 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:10:07am

re: #196 Spiny Norman

I hope so. He's got two years where he can practically do anything he wants. There are enough RINOs in the Senate that he'll more often than not be able to win a cloture vote.

198 realwest  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:10:11am

re: #118 HoosierHoops
Hey Hoops - sorry to be so late with a reply but I was over at the next thread, sticking it to the media!
It is, alas, too easy to be as much fun as it used to be!
And since I'm medically retired I'm used to being out here for hours at a time - until I have to eat lunch and then medicate again.
It is great - Charles not only has the BEST BLOG, but I find that the overwhelming majority of commenters add SO MUCH to my own personal knowledge base that it's sometimes downright exhilarating to be on LGF!

199 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:11:58am

And speaking of the anti-intellectual left, here's Naomi Klein railing about the "financial bail-out scam", in that journal of sober economic commentary, Rolling Stone. (Apparently Haliburton are involved, 'natch), She also imparts her wisdom on what should really be done about it:

There is a better way to fix a broken financial system. Treasury's plan to buy up the toxic debts never made sense and should be immediately scrapped — a move that would also handily get rid of most of the crony contractors. As for purchasing equity in banks, the next round of deals — and there will be more — has to start from the premise that the banks are bankrupt and will therefore accept whatever terms we choose to impose, including real regulatory oversight. The possibilities of what could be done if a chunk of the banking system were genuinely under public control — from a moratorium on home foreclosures to mandatory investment in green community redevelopment — are limitless.

Because here is what George Bush and Henry Paulson are hoping we won't figure out: When a society no longer has enough money to pay for its most pressing needs, there are worse things than discovering you own the banks.

200 Spiny Norman  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:17:48am

re: #197 Iron Fist

I hope so. He's got two years where he can practically do anything he wants. There are enough RINOs in the Senate that he'll more often than not be able to win a cloture vote.

Yep. We can only hope his Administration will more resemble Clinton's (such as it was) rather than Carter's. I'm not making any bets, though.

201 realwest  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:18:30am

re: #122 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, they want to distinguish between all groups--particularly, they want to make the distinction between "worthy, victim" groups and "unworthy, victimizing" groups. And they want different treatment for these two groups.

"Diversity" represents the destruction of the concept of equality; the destruction of equal rights under law; and, hence, the destruction of liberty.

Utterly antithetical to the concept of universality, since it deals with particular rights and adjustments based on special pleading, "diversity" is also utterly opposed to the spirit of the university. Ironically, however, it is in the university that "diversity" most flourishes. "Diversity" is an intellectual retrovirus that attacks and destroys its host.

it is indeed the epitome of what President Elect Obama stands for: class warfare. Only this class warfare is being waged by those WITH MONEY and pieces of paper, against those who want to gain money (with or without the pieces of paper) and thereby become "equal" with the "elites". It's also sometimes called "power sharing" and those elites don't want to share power with anyone who can't do them personally any good at all. It, and it's current exemplar Billy Ayers, typifies their disbelief in the idea of democracy, much less it's reality.

202 Bill K.  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:20:25am

Paul Hartman in his essay What is "Postmodernism"? exposes the anti-intellectualism and nihilism of the left:

Postmodernism rejects the modernist ideals of rationality, virility, artistic genius, and individualism, in favor of being anti-capitalist, contemptuous of traditional morality, and committed to radical egalitarianism. The most recent feature of PostModernism is the rise of Political Correctness and the attempt to purge dissenting opinion from the ranks of the academic/artistic/professional brahmin caste, together with a systematic attack on excellence in all fields. Post Modernism is an anti-Enlightenment position wherein adherents believe that what has gone before, as "Modernism", is inappropriately dependent on Reason, Rationalism, and Wisdom, and is, furthermore, inherently elitist, non-multicultural and therefore oppressive.

Finding fertile ground in academic departments of literature (particularly literary criticism), art history, and sociology - and more recently in history and political "science", its origin can be traced to the French academy of the 1970's whose proponents are now called "deconstructionists", the essence of which is that in any literary creation (any "text"), the actual meaning of the screed is to be found in the reader, not in the author. That is to say, it is futile to try and know what an author meant by what is written, but what you Can know is what you interpret from what you have read and That becomes the true meaning. A Text, the postmodernist insists, is "ultimately self-contradictory". (Except, of course, the texts written By postmodernists!)

In the sense that the Enlightenment encapsulated an acquired series of rational observations into Truths, and then wove those Truths into a coherent philosophy of the world, general laws which apply to it, and the consequences of such laws to its inhabitants, the postmodernists reject the notion that anything can be resolved to be True. Everything is in the mind of the beholder: relative, forever shifting; and anything perceived to be a "fact" is the mere disillusionment of a cultural bias. With such a philosophy, adherents can move beyond the critique of books to the critique of anything, even science, about which they tend to be supremely ignorant. But in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King, and in postmodernism, the man in best possession of obscurantist jargonism is Professor and Chairman of the Department.

At the end of the essay be sure to take the test : Would You like to be a "postmodern intellectual"?

203 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:41:54am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

Somali Pirates take over Saudi oil tanker? Who am i rooting for?

"N-G-U" -

Both of them to lose perhaps? -S-

204 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:50:39am

re: #163 Crazy Diamond

Deconstructivism and moral and cultural relativism have their good points, much as I dislike admitting it. The left has just taken those ideas well beyond the guardrail at the clifftop curve in the road.

re: #190 ladycatnip

And what good points would those be?

Deconstructivism: It's quite true that different people (and subcultures) apply different meanings to a given word. To find out what they're really saying, and translate it accurately, you have to find out what they mean. You have to deconstruct your own attachments from around the word and find out what they have constructed around it. That, as I understand it, is the essence of deconstructivism. The left goes off the cliff with it when they decide they know what I mean by a given word and cram me into the class/race/gender/orientation-struggle pigeonhole du jour.

Moral relativists help by pointing out cultural influences on the ideas of morality. Those cultural influences can take moral ideas off-track, to where they no longer represent a universally applicable standard but instead just stamp a particular cultural practice as intrinsically moral. The left goes off the cliff with moral relativism when they say that all ideas of morality are just culture-based, so that they can ignore morality claims whenever convenient.

Cultural relativism reminds us that not everybody wants the same things we want for our culture. It can help remind us of good things our culture has let go by the wayside and reexamine whether we want those things back. It also helps remind us our own culture does similar stupid things. I remember when LGF had articles about little kids in Pakistan getting their throats slashed by razors on kite strings. Okay, sounds really dimwitted, but I've seen plenty of kids in the U.S. riding small motorized vehicles or skateboarding in a way that makes me think they're organ donors waiting for an accident. We just think differently about dangers to children. The left goes off the cliff with cultural relativism when they defend any aspect of another culture just because they hate ours so much. The right goes off a cliff with cultural comparisons when the comparisons aren't rooted in a desire for basic human rights.

205 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 10:56:13am

re: #202 Bill K.


"deconstructionists", the essence of which is that in any literary creation (any "text"), the actual meaning of the screed is to be found in the reader, not in the author.

ladycatnip, you can see from #202 I disagree with this definition of deconstructionism.

206 Millie Woods  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:06:13am

The most laughable thing about the purveyors of deconstructionism is their concern in their intimate communications with one another about the deconstruction of what they ate. To put it bluntly the lot of them were always whining about their respective varieties of constipation. They were literally full of you know what. This is nothing new with the French so-called intellectual class. In the 19th century they corresponded with each other about their difficulties in starting movements - not the intellectual sort you understand.

207 enoughalready  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:06:46am

Ah. This is where Dr Dawkins fits in so well:

[Link: www.physics.nyu.edu...]

208 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:09:37am

The Black-Scholes formula

Working closely with Fischer Black, of the consulting firm Arthur D. Little, M.I.T.’s Myron Scholes invented a groundbreaking new theory of pricing options, to which his colleague Robert Merton also contributed. (Scholes and Merton would share the 1997 Nobel Prize in economics.) With wonderful mathematical wizardry, (they) reduced the price of a call option to ...the Black-Scholes formula.

The mathematics were reassuring. According to the firm’s “Value at Risk” models, it would take a 10-s (in other words, 10-standard-deviation) event to cause the firm to lose all its capital in a single year. But the probability of such an event, according to the quants, was 1 in 10,24—or effectively zero. Indeed, the models said the most Long-Term was likely to lose in a single day was $45 million. For that reason, the partners felt no compunction about leveraging their trades. At the end of August 1997, the fund’s capital was $6.7 billion, but the debt-financed assets on its balance sheet amounted to $126 billion, a ratio of assets to capital of 19 to 1.

...Suffice it to say that on Friday, August 21, 1998, the firm lost $550 million—15 percent of its entire capital, and vastly more than its mathematical models had said was possible.

...“If I had lived through the Depression, I would have been in a better position to understand events.” To put it bluntly, the Nobel Prize winners knew plenty of mathematics but not enough history.

209 enoughalready  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:13:13am

Oh, and for those of you who are slightly more technically inclined, do yourselves a favor and download
[Link: www.csse.monash.edu.au...]

It is a wonder. The title itself is worth a thousand... well, something. Camels.

210 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:16:54am

re: #206 Millie Woods

Full of it indeed. Which inspires me to re-post this classic paper from the annals of Deconstructionism:

Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity

In which a physicist, Alan D. Sokal, annoyed by the impenetrable drivel of his colleagues in the Humanities Department, wrote a nonsense "physics" paper in the jargon of Deconstructionism. The Deconstructionists loved it and praised it's brilliance and "transgressiveness". A few weeks later, Sokol revealed the philosophers had all been had. It was a lark, a satire and a big fat joke on their pompous heads.

211 lurking faith  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:28:23am

re: #163 Crazy Diamond

Sandefur makes good points and bad ones. The difficult part of all intellectual activities is admitting the assumptions they're based on. The next hardest part is admitting you can't necessarily reach the conclusion you'd most like with those assumptions.

Deconstructivism and moral and cultural relativism have their good points, much as I dislike admitting it. The left has just taken those ideas well beyond the guardrail at the clifftop curve in the road.

Good points? Deconstructivism has good points?

I have read Derrida in three languages, including the original, and I am unafraid to state that Deconstuctionism is a steaming pile of c.r.a.p. I had the unenviable task of explaining the theory to a large group of people, and found that if you followed step by step a very carefully constructed blueprint, at the end the whole thing would make wild glorious sense - for about 1.3 seconds. And everyone shouted "I get it!" - but then everyone's brains kicked back into gear and we all said "no, wait - that doesn't work at all."

It's flimsier than a house of cards on a windy day.

212 ladycatnip  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:32:44am

#204 Crazy Diamond

Thank you for taking the time to explain what you meant.

It's been a long time since my philosophy class, but my understanding of deconstruction was that it was originally intended for literary purposes. Even Derrida wouldn't define it as he didn't want it to become a methodology; those who came after him either supported him or expanded it as a philosophical tool. We might be talking about the same thing, but I think a much simpler term to understand other cultures would be clarity. I never would've thought of deconstruction when trying to understand why people in the ME commit terrorist acts and chop off heads or body parts.

Also disagree with you when it comes to cultural and moral relativism. Kids getting their throats slashed with razors on kite strings in the ME is an altogether different animal than kids riding motorized vehicles here in the U.S.

The left goes off the cliff with cultural relativism when they defend any aspect of another culture just because they hate ours so much. The right goes off a cliff with cultural comparisons when the comparisons aren't rooted in a desire for basic human rights.

I fail to see where the right is going off a cliff with basic human rights. We've blurred the distinction between rights and wants in our country when what one group wants becomes a demand upon another group.

213 lurking faith  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:34:02am

re: #210 Kenneth

Thanks for re-posting that; I'd forgotten about it.

Now I'm going to be laughing at random moments the rest of the day.

214 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:35:05am

re: #181 DaddyG

(WWII era ditty)
Hitler, he's only got one ball
Goering, has two but very small
Himmler, has something similer
but poor old Goebbels, has no balls at all!

Hahaha! I remember that ditty from my school days. Long time ago. Thanks for the laugh!

215 ladycatnip  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:38:14am

#211 lurking faith

I have read Derrida in three languages, including the original, and I am unafraid to state that Deconstuctionism is a steaming pile of c.r.a.p. I had the unenviable task of explaining the theory to a large group of people, and found that if you followed step by step a very carefully constructed blueprint, at the end the whole thing would make wild glorious sense - for about 1.3 seconds. And everyone shouted "I get it!" - but then everyone's brains kicked back into gear and we all said "no, wait - that doesn't work at all."

It's flimsier than a house of cards on a windy day.

Brilliantly said.

216 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:41:10am

re: #213 lurking faith

Needless to say the butts of his joke did not appreciate being made to look like fools.

"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.)" - Alan Sokal

217 lurking faith  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:46:16am

re: #215 ladycatnip

Thanks. I spent ages studying that stuff - vastly more than it deserved.

Your point that there is no original definition is also important.
There is no widely accepted definition, and indeed, under the concept's own terms, there can be no possible verbal definition of Deconstructionism. If anybody claims to be able to tell you what Deconstructionism really is in 20 words or less, they have probably failed to understand it.

218 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:49:55am

re: #207 enoughalready

Ah. This is where Dr Dawkins fits in so well:

[Link: www.physics.nyu.edu...]

Yes, I've laughed at that stuff for years myself. Sokal's work was brilliant mockery, acknowledged well by one of the greatest mockers of our time, Richard Dawkins. Still, there is a core truth to deconstructivism that shouldn't be thrown away like the rest of the nonsense. Give me control of any big-box store jewelry section and I'd toss not only most of the jewelry but their layout, architecture, and chintzy displays. I'd still keep the best diamonds, though. The fact that people attach different meanings to words should be acknowledged, but it doesn't give me the right to decide what they mean and hang a label on them.

Similar mockeries to Sokal's could also be made of a great many scientists, once they turn science to political advocacy. Science tells you what is repeatably measurable, not the way things ought to be, or the goals we ought to strive for. That's the realm of philosophy, religion, and politics. In the same way that I keep the core truth at the base of deconstructivism and toss the rest, I try to do the same with other areas of intellectual activity.

219 ladycatnip  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:50:00am

P.S. on Deconstructionism/relativism

It's coming back to me now, sitting in class listening to the prof say there is no such thing as absolute truth, and that we shouldn't judge other cultures by our standards, because who says we're the ones who are right? That was a seething moment for me.

220 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 11:59:53am

re: #211 lurking faith

Good points? Deconstructivism has good points?

I have read Derrida in three languages, including the original, and I am unafraid to state that Deconstuctionism is a steaming pile of c.r.a.p.

:) Glad you waded through it, and not me. My understanding of deconstruction isn't based on Jacques Derrida or Paul de Man, just the explanations given to me by a couple of graduate students studying literary criticism. They too were the sort to look for diamonds in the pile of rubble. Did Derrida have anything like a statement that different people hang different meanings on the same word?

221 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:03:40pm

re: #218 Crazy Diamond

I would think the whole point of Sokal's hoax was to point out how irrationality had undermined philosophy by allowing people to pretend facts did not exist and meaning was always invented. It is precisely that kind of post-modern deconstructionist thinking that has permeated the media, politicians and activist scientists who peddle the pseudo-scientific farce called "Global Warming". Don't look to the "gems" of Deconstructionism to fix the problem; it is the problem.

222 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:06:41pm
223 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:11:19pm

re: #219 ladycatnip

P.S. on Deconstructionism/relativism

It's coming back to me now, sitting in class listening to the prof say there is no such thing as absolute truth, and that we shouldn't judge other cultures by our standards, because who says we're the ones who are right? That was a seething moment for me.

Yes, it's that sort of wildly general, over-the-cliff conclusion I was talking about when I said the left takes some good things too far.

re: #212 ladycatnip

#204 Crazy Diamond

Also disagree with you when it comes to cultural and moral relativism. Kids getting their throats slashed with razors on kite strings in the ME is an altogether different animal than kids riding motorized vehicles here in the U.S.

Yeah, I didn't have time to look up the statistics, but I figure a dozen kids with throats slashed by kites in Pakistan could be easily matched by tragic mini-motor vehicle accidents here. Should've explained better. Sorry!

re: #212 ladycatnip
I fail to see where the right is going off a cliff with basic human rights. We've blurred the distinction between rights and wants in our country when what one group wants becomes a demand upon another group.

As long as the right really does go after basic human rights, like the right not to be raped, we're on solid ground. A culture that says rape is just one of those things is inferior to ours, in that regard. Comparing cultures based on what food people eat or the skill level of doctors they have access to puts us on iffy ground. What sort of things kids tend to get killed from while playing sports is another.

Trying to compare all of one culture to all of another is pretty shaky in and of itself. It's bad enough trying to compare the body of positions held by one politician to another's.

224 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:18:56pm

re: #221 Kenneth

Don't look to the "gems" of Deconstructionism to fix the problem; it is the problem.

Deconstructionist thinking is a huge problem, but the "gems" aren't. I've been told moral relativism came out of people taking Einstein's relativity theory and applying the overly-broad maxim "everything is relative" to moral thinking. Whether that's true or not I don't know. However, I'm not tossing Einstein's relativity theory just because I think moral relativists are nuts. (Not that I know much about Einstein's GRT, either... biology is my trade, not physics.)

225 eff plus  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:19:14pm

I am a proponent of Post-Modernism. For this, I get grief from both the Left and the Right. The Right, as the essay indicates, accuses Post-Modernism of fostering “moral relativism.” The Left accuses Post-Modernism of abandoning rational, empirical thought in favor of gut-instinct (read: to them, “religious”) zeal, a la “neo-con style.” Both these views are wrong. Post-Modernism, properly understood, has no political character, nor is it welded to any particular outlook, nor is it some strange set of “rules” mandating that all views must be thought of as equal. Far from it; it is a totalized worldview in the broadest, most abstract sense. It can be manifested to support any day-to-day agenda one wishes, and more effectively than its predecessor at that.

However, I don’t cast too much blame upon nay-sayers of either political persuasion for their misunderstanding because this subject is taught horribly in universities, and most of what is published as "Post-Modernism" is not Post-Modernism. It’s ‘whatever’ with Post-Moderny buzzwords attached.

Samuel Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations would be a pretty good example of a well-applied Post-Modern analysis. I don’t support everything he concludes in that, but I think it’s hard to deny that it hasn’t been a prescient piece of work in many respects.

226 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:20:52pm

A couple observations:

1) I don't think it's fair to call postmodernists, deconstructionists, etc. anti-intellectual. I don't think they are right about most things, but they have a theory about the way the world works that is a product of the great tradition of Western thought.

2) The influence of such views in academia is wildly overestimated by non-academics. They have been on the wane since the 80's--even more so in France.

3) The influence of such views on the the Democratic party is non-existent as far as I can see. Even the more lefty ones like Kuchinich don't strike me as being in anyway influenced by these views. THe Democrats support gay marriage and so forth not because of moral relativist, but because they think that believe in individual rights and think that that is one of them. Where's the relativism there?

227 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:21:42pm

OOPS! PIMF!

Should've put blockquotes around "I fail to see... upon another group"!

Sorry!

228 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:24:57pm

re: #225 eff plus

... because this subject is taught horribly in universities...

My field, biology, certainly was badly taught. I've heard that statement now so many times about different fields I'm wondering what universities do teach well. Other than voting for whoever has a (D) after their name.

229 docremulac  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:36:46pm

Wow! What a refreshing expose! The reason liberals can do whatever they want is because, no matter what their original roots were, they're de-evolved into the tribal mentality.

This is how the tribal mentality works:

1- Like minded people are drawn together to form a group due to similar political outlooks or other common purpose.

2- Once this "tribe" is formed, depending on the morality of the leaders, the group can become what's important, not the original goals.

This is why "progressives" that might have gotten their start in the civil rights movement can support the exact opposite of what they originally banded together for. The elimination of women's rights, because alliance with islam is beneficial to their war against non-progressives, or turning a blind eye to the horrors of present day black slavery in Africa because it's existence takes away from the tool of using America's slave trading past as a psychological tool against it's people. (Notice how white liberals talk about slavery in America like their ancestors had nothing to do with it?)

Want to see a good example of a non-tribal mentality? When Charles enforces a moral code on this site, even in dealings towards those outside the group who may be adverse to the group. The exact opposite would be Dan Rather's line about "false but factual", where the group gets to bend or throw the rules away because it's so great.

Liberal's on the other hand only have one overall un-changing value: hate for non-liberals.

And don't feel bad conservatives, they hate Libertarians too.

230 Daisy  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 12:59:32pm

The mental mantra of the Left:
"Everything is the Same as Everything Else Except for Bush From Which All Evil Emanates" is the very definition of intellectually flaccid. It's also morally rancid and ethically worthless.

231 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:04:23pm

re: #224 Crazy Diamond

You keep posting comments about what you think are the virtues of Deconstructionism, but the examples you give illustrate exactly what is wrong with it.

That is a complete misunderstanding of Relativity. Often called Einstein's Theory of Relativity, he thought it should be called a Theory of Invariance. That has the opposite philosophical implication doesn't it? In fact, Einstein wrote two papers on Relativity: The first in 1905 on Special Relativity, and the second in 1916 on General Relativity. Neither paper had anything to do with ethics or morality, relative or otherwise.

Which is precisely the problem with Deconstructionism: the belief that the meaning of an idea is in the eye of the beholder. To which idiocy I repost this quote:

"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.)" - Alan Sokal

232 enoughalready  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:08:11pm

re: #218 Crazy Diamond

I agree.

Although, ladycatnip, why seethe about that? If you are french, that's a really important lesson to learn.

233 littleO  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:10:00pm

Does this mean that those who believe in a supernatural God and resurected Jesus Christ will be welcomed here? welcome to share their faith unmolested?

234 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:25:51pm

It is a common mistake of theists to think that the alternative to theism is moral relativism of some sort.

235 J.S.  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:36:00pm

re: #224 Crazy Diamond

There is a text which is quite readable (I recommend it) written by Brian Greene titled: "The Fabric of the Cosmos." Greene writes: "...Einstein's theory does not proclaim that everything is relative. Special relativity does claim that some things are relative: velocities are relative; distances acorss space are relative; durations of elapsed time are relative. But the theory actually introduces a grand, new sweepingly absolute concept: absolute spacetime. Absolute spacetime is as absolute for special relativity as absolute space and absolute time were for Newton, and partly for this reason Einstein did not suggest or particularly like the name 'relativity theory.' Instead, he and other physicists suggested invariance theory, stressing that the theory, at its core, involves something that everyone agrees on, something that is not relative."(p. 51).

236 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:44:45pm
I've been told moral relativism came out of people taking Einstein's relativity theory and applying the overly-broad maxim "everything is relative" to moral thinking. Whether that's true or not I don't know.

Special relativity derives from the fact that, in Maxwell's equations, the speed of light is a constant. That's to say, from all reference frames the measured speed of light is the same.

Prior to Eienstein, they attempted to explain the constant speed of light by invoking a fixed reference frame, the ether, but repeated experimental attempts to reveal the ether failed. Einstein's brilliance was to discard the ether and explain how all reference frames would detect the same speed of light.

As far as cultural relativity is concerned, it's a great tool for an ethnologist, but it is otherwise wrong. Cultures can be judged on the outcomes they provide; no matter how much you love your culture, if it fails to defend itself and the people within it, it's a failure. Western culture in general, and the American version in particular, are superior. The illegals fleeing the countries built by other cultures are just one proof.

237 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:49:16pm

re: #236 DonS

As far as cultural relativity is concerned, it's a great tool for an ethnologist, but it is otherwise wrong. Cultures can be judged on the outcomes they provide; no matter how much you love your culture, if it fails to defend itself and the people within it, it's a failure. Western culture in general, and the American version in particular, are superior. The illegals fleeing the countries built by other cultures are just one proof.

This can't be right. Couldn't there be a "successful" culture that, say, practiced human sacrifice? And suppose our culture were destoyed. How would that prove it wasn't good enough?

238 Kenneth  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:49:53pm

re: #236 DonS

A very nice explanation of Relativity. However, this part,

Cultures can be judged on the outcomes they provide; no matter how much you love your culture, if it fails to defend itself and the people within it, it's a failure. Western culture in general, and the American version in particular, are superior. The illegals fleeing the countries built by other cultures are just one proof.

...describes a serious problem in part of our culture, the failure to defend itself adequately.

239 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:52:15pm

re: #14 quickjustice

The Left lacks any coherent intellectual agenda, rehashing New Deal principles derived from Mussolini's Fascist Italy. What's astonishing is that even in the context of the massive historical failures of these authoritarian ideologies during the 20th Century, with millions of innocent deaths as the consequence, they're still at it.

Are they not paying attention, or have they simply abandoned any pretense of morality and humanity in their reasoning?


Very good!

The first New Deal, the National Recovery Act, prolonged the Great Depression by seven years according to UCLA economists. Even after the Supreme Court struck the act down, FDR continued the policies. The NRA was the most fascist economic plan put into place in America. Ever.

FRD did in fact try for a second New Deal based directly upon Italian fascist central planning, but even the Democrats in congress rejected that. Maybe Obama can push it through, what with Reid and Pelosi in the Senate and House . . .

240 Daisy  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:52:20pm

re: #226 philosophus invidius

" THe Democrats support gay marriage and so forth not because of moral relativist, but because they think that believe in individual rights and think that that is one of them. Where's the relativism there?"

Focusing narrowly on gay marriage, the relativism rests on the presumption that gay 'culture' and straight 'culture' are interchangeable, which they are not. "Everything is the same as everything else" is the ruling principle of moral relativism. Problem w/that principle is that it's patently false since everything is not the same as everything else. Gay people and straight people have equal worth as humans, both are as capable (and incapable) of love, but gay people do not (and should not) have equal access to the institution of marriage. Neither do all people have a right to enter the educational institution Harvard anymore than everyone is entitled to a driver's license. Not being admitted to Harvard and not being allowed to drive a car if blind or otherwise impaired, in no way diminishes 'individual' rights. In fact, giving obeisance to reality (individuals are different ) has a way of protecting the rights of the individual.

If marriage was simply a matter of 'individual rights' then children ought to be able to marry - or you ought to be able to have a legally sanctioned marriage union w/your dog or your goldfish - and that's not going to happen anytime soon. And it won't, because, despite the best efforts of the 'moral' relativists, as a society, we still have a fundamental respect for the institution of marriage as a sacred union/conjunction of 'opposites', and as a legal contract between a man w/a woman. Marriage, which in it's heart of hearts, is the antithesis of "individual" rights, paradoxically ends up being the basic societal unit that preserves the rights of individuals and families.

Marriage belongs, as an institution, to men and women marrying each other. Civil unions can be arranged (and legally sanctioned) between homosexuals and can also be used by heterosexuals who prefer that kind of arrangement. Why? Because everything is not the same as everything else.

241 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:53:33pm

re: #238 Kenneth

A very nice explanation of Relativity. However, this part,


...describes a serious problem in part of our culture, the failure to defend itself adequately.

Yes. In our case, it is mostly a willingness. We have the ability and means.

242 enoughalready  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 1:59:07pm

re: #236 DonS

The amusing thing here is that the success of a particular culture depends on your frame of reference. Or are you trying to say that a culture's success is constant over time? Would that mean that Egypt is still a successful culture? Of course not. Using immigration as a yardstick of cultural success may also be somewhat misleading.

But I digress. Cultural relativity is wrong but it is not wrong for the reasons you gave.

243 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 2:05:22pm

re: #237 philosophus invidius

This can't be right. Couldn't there be a "successful" culture that, say, practiced human sacrifice? And suppose our culture were destoyed. How would that prove it wasn't good enough?

The cultures I'm aware of that practiced human sacrifise were destroyed by the Spanish. Some 500 odd men under Cortez were able to conquer the Aztecs, for example.

Frankly, I can't see how a culture involving human sacrifise could compete with a Western, free market culture.

That said, my comment was a general statement. Around 1600 the Netherlands was the most advanced free market country. They developed a constitution (which our own is somewhat based upon). They were at least partially defeated by Spanish arms, since their small size and close proximity made force at arms the key factor, and Spain had that advantage.

England, on the other hand, with the channel, was able to hold off several armadas and eventually emerge superior.

So I'm not about to claim that cultural superiority is always the only factor.

Our most liklely road to defeat is for us to adopt socialism. If we do, it would also reflect our decay as a culture.

244 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 2:14:13pm

re: #242 enoughalready

The amusing thing here is that the success of a particular culture depends on your frame of reference. Or are you trying to say that a culture's success is constant over time? Would that mean that Egypt is still a successful culture?

What do you mean by "frame of reference"?

The Egyptian culture that was once a success no longer exists. Modern Egyptian culture is in no respect the same, or even similar.

Using immigration as a yardstick of cultural success may also be somewhat misleading.

The illegals cross the border to join in the success of a different culture, and leave the failure of their own culture. They main think the relative success/failure on either side of the border says nothing about culture, but they are wrong or kidding themselves . . .

The kicker is that most of them would otherwise prefer their native culture. They just don't enjoy its failure . . .

245 enoughalready  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 2:35:58pm

re: #244 DonS

Frame of reference here means observers placed at different places on a time axis. Let us say 200 years ago and with 50 year intervals until 500 years in the future. The observers would have very different opinions on which culture was the most successful (if they were objective, which they probably aren't since you haven't really put forward any objective criteria for determining the success of a culture).

When it comes to illegal immigrants I think you should consider which countries have the largest (per capita) groups of legal (refugee status) and illegal immigrants.
Jared Diamond's Collapse might be useful as a starting point for discussing how cultures evolve and why they collapse however.

246 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 3:06:22pm

re: #245 enoughalready

Frame of reference here means observers placed at different places on a time axis. Let us say 200 years ago and with 50 year intervals until 500 years in the future. The observers would have very different opinions on which culture was the most successful (if they were objective, which they probably aren't since you haven't really put forward any objective criteria for determining the success of a culture).

I think you are talking about comparing cultures from different periods, which makes for a rather difficult comparison. But I'm not all that interested in comparing over vast time periods. Contemporary cultures are easy to compare.

As far as objective criteria, the first and most obvious is military success. A more modern objective criteria is per capita GDP.

When it comes to illegal immigrants I think you should consider which countries have the largest (per capita) groups of legal (refugee status) and illegal immigrants.
Jared Diamond's Collapse might be useful as a starting point for discussing how cultures evolve and why they collapse however.

What I know of Diamond's arguments does not impress. I think his arguments are flawed. An example is his discussion of the conquest of the Incas, where he doesn't even grasp that the rapier was a weapon the Spaniards would have rarely used in the conquest (a minor point--no to pun--but it underlies a lack of depth). He completly misses the difference in the Spanish and Inca decision making process that lead to Spanish success and Indian failure, and seems more interested in that fact that Spaniards soiled themselves when watching the huge advancing horde of Indians (this is based upon the PBS televised version, I'm assuming it is consistent with his book).

Diamond has a key bias; he is trying to show that Western culture wasn't really superior, and that environmental issues are key. He has some clever points, butmore usefull works are those like Steven Le Blanc's Constant Battles.

247 bbuddha  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 3:27:51pm

re: #66 Sharmuta

As Heinlein often said..TANSTAAFL....there aint no such thing as a free lunch.
the word free should raise everyones warning flags

248 stevieray  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 3:31:06pm

re: #246 DonS

Diamond has a key bias; he is trying to show that Western culture wasn't really superior, and that environmental issues are key.

Exactly. He grabbed interesting factoids, chose his test cases carefully, and ignored huge piles of contradictory evidence to arrive at his pre-determined conclusion.

249 DocDale  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 3:35:12pm

re: #209 enoughalready

Oh, and for those of you who are slightly more technically inclined, do yourselves a favor and download
[Link: www.csse.monash.edu.au...]

It is a wonder. The title itself is worth a thousand... well, something. Camels.

Ahh, the man responsible for the 'postmodern text generator'. Worth a google, followed by a giggle.

250 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 3:52:52pm

re: #248 stevieray

Exactly. He grabbed interesting factoids, chose his test cases carefully, and ignored huge piles of contradictory evidence to arrive at his pre-determined conclusion.

An example is the domestication of animals.

I suspect the domestication process was long, and in most cases involved the genetic modification of the domesticated species. Diamond makes the claim that animals such as the zebra cannot be domesticated, and the proof is modern European failures to domesticate them (one fellow used zebras to pull his buggy), but the reality is that the existance of domesticated horses makes domesticating zebras much less usefull economically. We don't know how much time and effort went into the domestication of hourses . . .

251 Crazy Diamond  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 4:46:09pm

re: #231 Kenneth

You keep posting comments about what you think are the virtues of Deconstructionism, but the examples you give illustrate exactly what is wrong with it.

That is a complete misunderstanding of Relativity. Often called Einstein's Theory of Relativity, he thought it should be called a Theory of Invariance. That has the opposite philosophical implication doesn't it?

You miscomprehendulate my point. Even the most idiotic, inane sociopoliticoeconomic theory often has some observation buried deep in the rubble that's worth keeping. The rest may be garbage, but don't toss the diamond with the rubble.

When I first heard that moral relativity was based on General Relativity, my mouth dropped open for similar reasons. I knew that in GRT the one constant was the speed of light - and that doesn't sound terribly relative to me, either. In that case, the diamond I keep is the constant speed of light, not the idea that there is no universal standard of morality for any action whatsoever.

The problem I have with the left's approach to deconstruction (my understanding of it), moral relativity, and cultural relativity, is not that there it is all based on 100% lies, but rather that the truth gets leveraged way beyond its breaking point. You can't take physics and make moral arguments with it; you can't take cultural comparisons studies and use them to make political arguments; you can't take subtle vocabulary differences and accuse your opponents of monstrous verbal crimes. That's all just silly. But it's equally silly to claim that moral comparisons are easy, cultural comparisons are easy, or that physics principles are obvious and beyond all challenge.

252 Thanos  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 5:06:25pm

re: #233 littleO

Nobody immune to "molestation" here if they go overboard on anything. If sharing means proselytizing, Charles discourages that no matter what the faith.

253 stevieray  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 5:35:38pm

re: #251 Crazy Diamond

Moral relativism is a useful tool for Western sociologists and anthropologists when they study non-Western cultures -- a way to separate themselves from their subjects and keep their own cultural norms from influencing their judgments about those other cultures.

To expand it outside those paradigms is to render it absurd -- it wasn't designed as a basis for morality, only as a study aid.

254 DonS  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 5:58:18pm
You miscomprehendulate my point. Even the most idiotic, inane sociopoliticoeconomic theory often has some observation buried deep in the rubble that's worth keeping. The rest may be garbage, but don't toss the diamond with the rubble.

So remind me, where is the diamond in this theory?

255 the_flying_pig  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 7:24:40pm

Charles, can you briefly let me press "+" multiple times? I am in absolutely agreement with Timothy Sandefur for his divine work!

256 Waif  Mon, Nov 17, 2008 9:39:02pm

I suppose it is tacky of me to remind Sandefur about the well-documented lies and distortions of Ben Stein's Expelled. And we wouldn't want to mention how anti-intellectual the notion of Intelligent Design is, would we? If you need reminding, it's not a lefty concept.

There are imbeciles on both sides. It's best not to set yourself up to be hoisted by your own petard.

257 Crazy Diamond  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:37:26am

re: #256 Waif

I suppose it is tacky of me to remind Sandefur about the well-documented lies and distortions of Ben Stein's Expelled. And we wouldn't want to mention how anti-intellectual the notion of Intelligent Design is, would we? If you need reminding, it's not a lefty concept.

There are imbeciles on both sides. It's best not to set yourself up to be hoisted by your own petard.


I don't agree with everything Sandefur wrote, but that's one area where he didn't hoist himself. The very beginning of his post states:

Liberals have lately been making much of the purported anti-intellectualism of conservatives in the late election. No doubt they’re right.

258 Crazy Diamond  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:56:27am

re: #254 DonS

So remind me, where is the diamond in this theory?

Moral relativism? There are plenty of observations important to moral relativism worth noting: different cultures rank actions differently on a moral scale; social, cultural, and economic, and even geographic factors weigh heavily on those rankings; moral perceptions change within a culture over time.

Those are a few worthy observations. However, the conclusion that moral principles arise from cultural differences alone is unwarranted. So is the conclusion that there is no universal truth reflected by moral reasoning. Those statements are worth considering, in a philosophical sense, but the previous observations in no way require you to come to those conclusions. If you like those conclusions, you'll have to look for proof elsewhere. And I'll wish you luck when you some day want to argue that someone else ought to act this way or that.

259 enoughalready  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 6:11:44am

re: #246 DonS

I'd like to start by saying thanks for taking the time to discuss something that at least feels worthwhile (to me and hopefully to you as well). It's rare that people use their brain for long enough to produce anything interesting.

Now, over to the discussion (and hopefully you are still following it).
You argue that there are two objective criteria for a successful civilization:

1: military success
2: GDP per capita

Why are these objective criteria? An observer in Asia in the mid 1930s would argue that the most successful civilization was Japan using those criteria. In fact the culture that produced that military success was also it's downfall (and this is not uncommon in the history of cultures, aggression and military success seems to be a precursor to cultural decline but that's beside the point). One could argue that Japan still is a successful culture but that is by and large a very different Japan. Although that is perhaps subjective. Anyway. I would like to suggest other "objective" criteria.

1: infant mortality rate
2: corruption index

And why not? This would define a successful culture as a culture that is technologically sound and capable of caring for the most vulnerable of it's citizens as well as a culture that is (subjectively) morally sound. Why would this be less valid that military success? (One could actually also argue that the success of a culture is measured by it's longevity, stagnant or otherwise and perhaps also it's ability to rise from the ashes... I think my point really is that comparing cultures and naming one successful and another one unsuccessful fails to take into account what may happen in a very short time span, even though a certain culture might look as a winner at time A does not mean it is even a contender a very short time later.)

And on the topic of Jared Diamond, I think dismissing his work off hand is perhaps a bit premature. As many researchers he has a thesis and he attempts to prove it, even some of it is flawed (and it is) there is still a whole lot of interesting things in there.

260 waif  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 8:15:49pm

re: #257 Crazy Diamond

I don't agree with everything Sandefur wrote, but that's one area where he didn't hoist himself. The very beginning of his post states:

Liberals have lately been making much of the purported anti-intellectualism of conservatives in the late election. No doubt they’re right.

I don't count that blanket CYA tactic as valid. He might have enumerated an instance or two, rather than brush it off so easily and hope no one notices.

261 DonS  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 2:36:31pm
1: military success
2: GDP per capita

Why are these objective criteria? An observer in Asia in the mid 1930s would argue that the most successful civilization was Japan using those criteria. In fact the culture that produced that military success was also it's downfall (and this is not uncommon in the history of cultures, aggression and military success seems to be a precursor to cultural decline but that's beside the point). One could argue that Japan still is a successful culture but that is by and large a very different Japan. Although that is perhaps subjective. Anyway. I would like to suggest other "objective" criteria.

I'll have to keep this short, however:

Around 1600, Japan essentially locked itself in time. It only awoke about 250 years later when modern American warships appeared. The Japanese learned the flaw of their ways, yet remained militeristic. They defeated Russia in their 1904-06 war, and in the 1940s were on a collision course with the US.

By 1945, we taught them a second major lesson.

What I'm saying is that the Japanese culture of the '40s was in fact more successful than the inward looking Japan of the 1600s, but less so than the Japan of post-WW2.


1: infant mortality rate
2: corruption index

And why not? This would define a successful culture as a culture that is technologically sound and capable of caring for the most vulnerable of it's citizens as well as a culture that is (subjectively) morally sound. Why would this be less valid that military success? (One could actually also argue that the success of a culture is measured by it's longevity, stagnant or otherwise and perhaps also it's ability to rise from the ashes... I think my point really is that comparing cultures and naming one successful and another one unsuccessful fails to take into account what may happen in a very short time span, even though a certain culture might look as a winner at time A does not mean it is even a contender a very short time later.)

A culture that can't defend itself can't look after its infants. This is somewhat hard to see today, since for the last 200 years Anglo-Saxon navies have protected the world's sea lanes, defended Latin America, and otherwise promoted general worldwide stability.

I would argue that the Western free market countries would have the lower (better) corruption index. Free markets like stability, good government, etc. While you can steal your way to a high GDP, it isn't the typical way, or a good way to sustain a high GDP. A high per capita GDP would track well with low corruption.

I agree about short term winners among cultures. For example, Spain in 1500 was a great military power, which gained great wealth through conquest. England was a lessor power (and the Netherlands largely defeated), yet long term the English approach was the real winner. So yes, better does not always equate to winning. This is particularly so when we are talking small countries with shared borders. Oceans or large seperation of land masses tend to allow the superior culture to prevail.

262 gymnast  Thu, Nov 20, 2008 2:34:07pm

test


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