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98% of Texas Science Professors Reject 'Intelligent Design'

Science | Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:53:45 am PST

As we noted recently, the Texas State Board of Education has appointed three “intelligent design” creationists to a six-member committee that will review the state’s science curricula for public schools, two of them affiliated with the Discovery Institute—and these two just happen to be authors of an anti-evolution book that the Institute is trying to sneak into science classes, Explore Evolution.

But a new survey shows that about 98% of Texas biology professors reject the “intelligent design” scam.

Moments ago, the Texas Freedom Network posted to its Web site a study conducted by Dr. Raymond Eve, a professor of sociology and anthropology at the University of Texas at Arlington, titled Evolution, Creationism & Public Schools: Surveying What Texas Scientists Think about Educating Our Kids in the 21st Century. It reveals the results of a survey sent to biology and ”biological anthropology“ faculty members from ”all 35 public universities plus the 15 largest private institutions in Texas,“ in which they were asked to take the following taste test: evolution or intelligent design? As Eve writes in the introduction, the reason for the survey was simple:

”In the spring of 2009, the Texas State Board of Education will vote to adopt new curriculum standards for the teaching of science in grades K – 12 in Texas public schools. (These guidelines are formally known as the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills, or TEKS.) Many observers, both within Texas and around the country, anticipate a vigorous push by certain interest groups to make the debate over the Texas science curriculum the latest front in the running battle over evolution.“

So Eve, and the TFN, wanted to see where educators stood on the issue. Oof the 1,019 faculty members to whom the surveys were sent, 464 responded — and fewer than 1 percent checked off the box marked, “Modern evolutionary biology is mostly wrong. Life arose through multiple creation events by an intelligent designer, although evolution by natural selection played a limited role.” In other words: Do the evolution. Now might be a good time to re-read Jesse Hyde’s March 2008 cover story on the subject.

(Hat tip: Killgore.)

UPDATE at 11/18/08 10:01:41 am:

Here are the complete results from the PDF file linked above:

89.7%
“Modern evolutionary biology is largely correct in its essentials, but still has open questions for active scientific research.”

8%
“Modern evolutionary biology is correct in some respects. While further scientific research will require some major alterations to current theory, these advances will not invoke intervention by any supernatural agent.”

1.4%
“Modern evolutionary biology is right about the common ancestry of all extant organisms, but it is necessary to supplement it by invoking periodic intervention by an intelligent designer.”

0.9%
“Modern evolutionary biology is mostly wrong. Life arose through multiple creation events by an intelligent designer, although evolution by natural selection played a limited role.”

0.0%
“Modern evolutionary biology is completely wrong. Life was created essentially as we see it today.”

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287 comments

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1 JamesTKirk  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:54:35am

So only 1% need to be reassigned.

2 yitzy  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:54:48am

99%? So...what you're sayin' is there's no concensus!

3 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:54:54am
4 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:55:41am

REPOST:

OMG, HEEEELP! A 'friend' just sent me this article by George Monbiot. I'm stunned that this person is this profoundly ignorant. Where do I begin?
[Link: [Link: www.monbiot.com...]...]

Full blown moonbat. An article promoting communism. I'm just sitting here stunned...mouth open....blood pressure rising....

(I really need help. It's like watching someone die of Ebola.)

5 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:58:13am

re: #4 Sol Roth

Busted link

6 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:59:20am

Their opinion won't matter when the Texas Schools Commission (or whatever the hell it's called) order the Pro-ID textbooks for the entire state.

7 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:00:02am
Many observers, both within Texas and around the country, anticipate a vigorous push by certain interest groups to make the debate over the Texas science curriculum the latest front in the running battle over evolution.“

I assume that means the discovery institute. If so, I hope they learn the motto, "Don't mess with Texas".

8 obscured by clouds  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:00:22am

I find this issue to be so absurd that I refuse to spend any mental capital thinking about it. I mean...do people really believe this stuff?

9 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:00:33am

re: #4 Sol Roth

Your link didn't work. If it's the piece on Keynes, someone needs to show him Hayek.

FA Hayek rocks!

10 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:00:47am

Does this possibly mean that Intelligent Design is moving towards extinction? I sure hope so.

11 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:01:19am

re: #5 Ben Hur

Busted link


[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

12 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:01:55am

What happens when Texas high school students can't get into Texas colleges?

13 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:01:55am

re: #8 obscured by clouds

I find this issue to be so absurd that I refuse to spend any mental capital thinking about it. I mean...do people really believe this stuff?

Apparently they do, with a board committee of 6 with three loons on it...

14 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:02:07am

re: #6 FurryOldGuyJeans

Their opinion won't matter when the Texas Schools Commission (or whatever the hell it's called) order the Pro-ID textbooks for the entire state.

I think they only way it could get ID taught with those numbers is through force. Not violence, I mean, but other methods like buying the books, and mandating statements be read like in Dover.

15 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:02:48am

re: #14 Sharmuta

I think they only way it could get ID taught with those numbers is through force. Not violence, I mean, but other methods like buying the books, and mandating statements be read like in Dover.

Like hitting over the head with a Bible?
////

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:02:59am

re: #7 Sharmuta

I assume that means the discovery institute. If so, I hope they learn the motto, "Don't mess with Texas".

Texas is the most active battleground now. When an entire state's science curriculum is determined by a few people, the DI is sure to want their Wedge of the pie.

17 guitarguy[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:03:10am
18 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:03:11am

re: #8 obscured by clouds

Where have you been?!

19 logboy  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:03:27am

I'm confused... does this mean my mother is not a pterodactyl?

20 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:04:19am

re: #14 Sharmuta

I think they only way it could get ID taught with those numbers is through force. Not violence, I mean, but other methods like buying the books, and mandating statements be read like in Dover.

Violence on an impressionable mind is the worst, and the DI sure wants to do war.

21 vxbush  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:04:27am

Also note that Texas is a big decider of which textbooks are used across the country, as many states will look at California, Texas, and I believe Illinois to determine which textbooks to use. If these states approve a text, many other states will use it as well.

22 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:04:50am

re: #20 FurryOldGuyJeans

Violence on an impressionable mind is the worst, and the DI sure wants to do war.

Same goes for PETA.

23 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:05:11am

I believe that fair minded and fair thinking Americans understand what is science and what is religion and acknowledge that not everyone has a belief in religion nor should any one religion be taught in government-funded public schools (with the possible exception of a comparitive religion class...)

I attended Catholic grammar school and Catholic high school and a Catholic college and received religious studies classes all my life. That is a completely different story. But I have never thought that public schools (grammar or HS) should teach relgious tenets...

24 bloody barry  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:05:17am

I was one of the proud 53 that joined yesterday.

It remains exciting to observe Charles shape a political movement by actively hunting down the neer-do-wells in various dens of unreason.

These creationists cannot expect reasonable people to consider them any more helpful than the most superstitious Saudi imam.

Racism (re: to prior post on the anti-jihad x-men) is superstition explaining humanity, and in this way it is another beast in the outlands of history to confront...

Good hunting and stay frosty!

25 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:05:20am

I,ve been watching this with increasing fascination. To me, mind and spirit are completely separate but equal entities.
I guess that because I came to my faith only after reason left me with an empty feeling of despair I've been able to successfully compartmentalize the two.
I realize that the debate is on whether or not intelligent design should be taught as a viable alternative to evolution, but in my brain the two are not at all congruent.
Here's hoping that this is an issue that dies out generationally, which I believe it will.

26 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:06:07am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

What happens when Texas high school students can't get into Texas colleges?

Their moms and dads will be screaming to high heaven about how it happened. It might never occur to them that they let their kids down by not getting involved in such things as the PTA/PTO, the school board, et cet..

27 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:06:08am

Politicized Religionists will not let such a trivial matter as facts (e.g.; this survey) stand in their way.

This isn't about religion as a personal belief. This is about the religionizing of American society.

Islamists have the term Salafiism.

There needs to be an equivalent term for the "Christianists".

28 Karridine  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:06:22am

Whoever was calling me just now at 0045 Bangkok standard time, did NOT Intelligently Design the call to last long enough for me to get downstairs to the phone, although it WAS long enough to wake me!

I don't usually post here, at this time... obvious reasons, what with SLEEP and all...

/grumble, mumble, mumph!

29 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:06:48am

re: #11 Sol Roth

[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

Thanks.

IF that guy is British, you should remind him that's there's just as many chav trailor trash ignoramuses there (probably more) than there are here.

Actually, probably more, if done on a per capita basis and not based on population.

30 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:06:49am

99%, That's great news
50% of the committee overseeing what they may be able to teach, not so much...

31 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:06:50am

re: #8 obscured by clouds

Incredible album. One of my favorites. So Wots...uh, the Deal?

32 DistantThunder  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:07:18am

Once again we would have to ask - whose version of ID would be allowed to be taught? It's also likely that the the vast majority of those anti-ID science teachers are Christians or raised as Christians - this is Texas. I see that as hopeful.

Why are these ID creationists so OBSESSED with getting this non-scientific material into the classroom. Teach it at church - if they are so passionate about it. Hold free ID workshops for the public.

It is a very odd obessesion.

33 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:07:24am

2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Not a thing in there about science or biology or geography or geology.

/OHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

34 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:07:30am

re: #21 vxbush

Also note that Texas is a big decider of which textbooks are used across the country, as many states will look at California, Texas, and I believe Illinois to determine which textbooks to use. If these states approve a text, many other states will use it as well.

There is a lot to be concerned about with the books they are using in school. Saw the expo on Hannity about the revisionist history making its way into books pervasively. How can kids know any better if their parents are not up on this stuff either (outraged or otherwise teaching them the truth)!?!

35 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:07:48am
36 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:08:04am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

What happens when Texas high school students can't get into Texas colleges?

A lot of those colleges will lower the standards so they can continue accepting the high tuition fees and indoctrinate the yutes in Marxist theory so as to compensate for the religious opiate they were earlier forced to consume.

37 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:08:47am

re: #28 Karridine

Whoever was calling me just now at 0045 Bangkok standard time, did NOT Intelligently Design the call to last long enough for me to get downstairs to the phone, although it WAS long enough to wake me!

I don't usually post here, at this time... obvious reasons, what with SLEEP and all...

/grumble, mumble, mumph!

Well, while you're awake ... GOOD MORNING!
*grin*

38 Pyrocles  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:09:21am

Monbiot is the protypical "moonbat"; it's where the term came from! What an ass...

My Liberal Canadian wife actually dragged me to a lecture by Susan Jacoby at the local university... That was torturous.

re: #11 Sol Roth

[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

39 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:09:22am

re: #22 victor_yugo

re: #20 FurryOldGuyJeans

Violence on an impressionable mind is the worst, and the DI sure wants to do war.

Same goes for PETA.

To the left and the right.

40 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:09:32am

re: #21 vxbush

Also note that Texas is a big decider of which textbooks are used across the country, as many states will look at California, Texas, and I believe Illinois to determine which textbooks to use. If these states approve a text, many other states will use it as well.

Good point, and one for which I can be thankful here in La.
Jindal signed a bill that would allow "alternate" ideas to be discussed (ID, creationism), but I have not seen that people here have much understanding of what that really means.

If Texas can keep the books straight, that's great.
And maybe La. will be able to hire some of those Texas teachers.

41 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:09:44am

re: #28 Karridine

Whoever was calling me just now at 0045 Bangkok standard time, did NOT Intelligently Design the call to last long enough for me to get downstairs to the phone, although it WAS long enough to wake me!

I don't usually post here, at this time... obvious reasons, what with SLEEP and all...

/grumble, mumble, mumph!

Now you get some more lgf time. ;)

42 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:09:46am
43 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:04am

re: #38 Pyrocles

Did you find her in a "Liberal Canadian Wife" catalog?

/sarc

44 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:10am

They're Sience PROFESSORS...Right?
Now if they were Doctors of Theology...that would be a suprise!

45 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:29am

re: #29 Ben Hur

Thanks.

IF that guy is British, you should remind him that's there's just as many chav trailor trash ignoramuses there (probably more) than there are here.

Actually, probably more, if done on a per capita basis and not based on population.

Oh yes. I can't recall why we call The Guardian "Al-Guardian." I think it had something to do with one of their reporters embedded with the terrorists in Fallujah. Do you remember?

46 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:31am

This same thing happened in Kansas several years ago. The result is that Kansas just elected their first democrat governor in decades.

Yes, Virginia, this kind of nonsense really does turn people away from the GOP.

47 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:54am

Between the previous thread and this one, Charles is gonna' get a double-dose of crazies from the stalkers.

48 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:55am

re: #42 buzzsawmonkey

Confession - gonna go see "Bolt" in 3D Friday.

49 obscured by clouds  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:10:58am

re: #18 MandyManners

Where have you been?!

Oh, I know this is a big issue on LGF but I'm so disinterested in it that I've skipped every, single, thread devoted to it. Maybe the fact that my schooling is over and I don't have any kids to worry about it the reason that I really just don't care. I do, however, feel somewhat embarrased that the official "intelligent design museum" is in my home state.

50 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:11:13am

re: #42 buzzsawmonkey

The Disney-fication of America: Obambi in the White House, Bible Thumpers on the school boards...

I want my unicorn and talking bunnies! Oh, and that plasma HDTV and the 18 room mansion with the domestic staff, all for free!

51 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:11:23am

re: #42 buzzsawmonkey

The Disney-fication of America: Obambi in the White House, Bible Thumpers on the school boards...

... and it all smells like "Flower".

52 Karridine  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:11:25am

re: #37 pre-Boomer Marine brat

TOP o'the Morning, pre-B!

Hasn't called back, so I'm outta year! Y'all have a GREAT day, y'hear? :D

53 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:12:02am

re: #50 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about your Big Three made car as well?

54 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:12:27am

re: #32 DistantThunder

Once again we would have to ask - whose version of ID would be allowed to be taught? It's also likely that the the vast majority of those anti-ID science teachers are Christians or raised as Christians - this is Texas. I see that as hopeful.

Why are these ID creationists so OBSESSED with getting this non-scientific material into the classroom. Teach it at church - if they are so passionate about it. Hold free ID workshops for the public.

It is a very odd obessesion.

Well- it's not just the classrooms they're pushing. It's a number of social issues. They're bringing it to other meetings besides the PTA and school boards. This is really energy they need to focus on church- form groups that will help real people in need, not those of us who want our kids to learn real science.

Instead of pushing creationism, couldn't these folks help the homeless? Or at risk families or something? There's nothing more important than destroying evolution for them?

55 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:13:06am

re: #53 tfc3rid

GM is ending out a letter to all owners telling them to support the bailout saying that its a loan that will be repaid. LMAO!

56 firepilot  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:13:13am
Once again we would have to ask - whose version of ID would be allowed to be taught? It's also likely that the the vast majority of those anti-ID science teachers are Christians or raised as Christians - this is Texas.

Correct. If you are going to allow one religion to put forth its version of creation, then well you are opening the door to allowing other religions to include their own ideas also.

I bet those promoting Creationism into the curriculum, would be the loudest to complain if we also included Hindu creationism too. I mean that would only be fair to include it also.

Lets include Brahma and Vishnu in Biology textbooks :)

57 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:13:19am

The Jesse Hyde article makes or suggests some false equivalences. Global warming denial is not in the same basket with creationism. I'm convinced of the reality of global warming. I'm convinced of the reality of evolution. But the level of evidence is just overwhelming when it comes to evolution. No one can seriously argue it, not on scientific grounds. Kids should be taught in science class that the evidence for evolution is as strong as the evidence for gravity; that the DNA and fossil evidence combines marvelously, and that scientifically speaking, that's the way it is. Not just was, is. (Evolution never stopped.)

The level of evidence for global warming is strong. Not overwhelming. Just strong. There's still room for argument, for debate, for doubts. There are real scientists who accept the solid evidence [CO2 levels are up], doubt that part that's a bit shaky or worse, [NASA's Warmest October Ever] and come to different conclusions. It wouldn't be appropriate to teach kids that anthropogenic global warming is an unchallenged reality and that there really is no scientific ground for doubt.

The article then goes on to complain about how right-wingers attacked an algebra book for including recipes, pictures, and references to Vietnam. I know a little something about teaching algebra, and recipes, pictures, and Vietnam are not essential parts of algebra. One can get along with x, y, z, circles, lines, graphs, rivers and tall buildings and cakes to be divided up by some rule or other. Nations that do far, far better than we do at teaching algebra get along just fine with no-nonsense algebra books about algebra.

58 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:13:32am

re: #49 obscured by clouds

Oh, I know this is a big issue on LGF but I'm so disinterested in it that I've skipped every, single, thread devoted to it. Maybe the fact that my schooling is over and I don't have any kids to worry about it the reason that I really just don't care. I do, however, feel somewhat embarrased that the official "intelligent design museum" is in my home state.

The Discovery Institute is a few miles north of where I live, and yet I am profoundly not embarrassed by the looniness that is the Socialist Republik of Seattle. Hippies, patchouli, AND the DI. *BLEH*

59 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:14:01am

re: #38 Pyrocles

Monbiot is the protypical "moonbat"; it's where the term came from! What an ass...

My Liberal Canadian wife actually dragged me to a lecture by Susan Jacoby at the local university... That was torturous.

This person is a devout Catholic and (former) Republican. Their vote was based on race I believe. I'm actually scared I may be denounced (guns, money, two loaves instead of one) in the future.

Not kidding. This Dear Leader shit is freaking me to the core.

60 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:14:32am

re: #55 Bumr50

GM is ending out a letter to all owners telling them to support the bailout saying that its a loan that will be repaid. LMAO!

Yeah, okay... Repaid my arse...

61 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:14:43am

You know, these ID folks are evolving, if you think about it...from 6 days to 6,000 years. Maybe they'll be up to the millions in a few decades? Oh no, a Darwinian observation about THEM...///

62 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:14:45am

re: #49 obscured by clouds

Oh, I know this is a big issue on LGF but I'm so disinterested in it that I've skipped every, single, thread devoted to it. Maybe the fact that my schooling is over and I don't have any kids to worry about it the reason that I really just don't care. I do, however, feel somewhat embarrased that the official "intelligent design museum" is in my home state.

The future of our nation's ability to produce scientists could be called into question if this nonsense takes root. This affects all.

63 bloody barry  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:14:52am

Lord, we ask that you bless this public space as we humiliate a few of your wayward children, and we ask of you, O' Lord, that should we ever get so lucky as to map out the money, the influence, and the personal choices that pushed the rotten fruit of these harmful movements into the minds of our precious young, may our history be attest to the consensual agreement on the pernicious and insulting nature of these subversives, themselves little more than "liberation" theologists. We ask this in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, Amen.

64 Pyrocles  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:14:54am

She was a Conservative Canadian living in Atlanta, Georgia for the past 12 when I met her. After moving up to Buffalo, NY to be near her family, and a year in college (of course), she "rediscovered" her Socialist roots :(

re: #43 Bumr50

Did you find her in a "Liberal Canadian Wife" catalog?

/sarc

65 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:15:31am

re: #54 Sharmuta

Well- it's not just the classrooms they're pushing. It's a number of social issues. They're bringing it to other meetings besides the PTA and school boards. This is really energy they need to focus on church- form groups that will help real people in need, not those of us who want our kids to learn real science.

Instead of pushing creationism, couldn't these folks help the homeless? Or at risk families or something? There's nothing more important than destroying evolution for them?

I mean- anti-abortionists, I could understand, but anti-evolutionists? They read the Bible and thought the best thing they could do is destroy science? That's a damn shame.

66 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:15:35am

re: #27 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Politicized Religionists will not let such a trivial matter as facts (e.g.; this survey) stand in their way.

This isn't about religion as a personal belief. This is about the religionizing of American society.

Islamists have the term Salafiism.

There needs to be an equivalent term for the "Christianists".

There is: "mediæval". However, for a more modern equivalent of "salafism," I suggest you look up "Patristics."

OTOH, your vocabulary is straight from Andrew Sullivan. (Pun intended.)

67 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:15:36am

Noah ransomed the dinosaurs to Somali pirates so they would release the ark.

Then the pirates ate the dinosaurs.

68 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:16:08am

re: #55 Bumr50

GM is ending out a letter to all owners telling them to support the bailout saying that its a loan that will be repaid. LMAO!

It worked in Germany for Opel. It'll sadly work here, most likely.

69 J.S.  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:16:23am

re: #29 Ben Hur

Indeed. Monbiot is from the UK (lives in Wales, I believe). He should focus on education in the UK. It's in a sorry state. Just take a stroll though any of the British slums...But, then, bashing Americans is sooo much easier...It's how The Guardian maintains its readership...now that's "intelligence".

70 theatheistjew  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:16:48am

C'mon everyone knows that the only reason biological science exists is so Godless Liberals can try to prove there is no God.
If scientists were serious about science they would use the bible as a textbook:)

71 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:17:09am

re: #54 Sharmuta

Well- it's not just the classrooms they're pushing. It's a number of social issues. They're bringing it to other meetings besides the PTA and school boards. This is really energy they need to focus on church- form groups that will help real people in need, not those of us who want our kids to learn real science.

Instead of pushing creationism, couldn't these folks help the homeless? Or at risk families or something? There's nothing more important than destroying evolution for them?

Maybe I don't get out enough but, I don't know of any churches around here that are organizing to destroy science.

72 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:17:26am

re: #62 MandyManners

The future of our nation's ability to produce scientists could be called into question if this nonsense takes root. This affects all.

A religious theocracy doesn't care about that silly nonsense. When I see what these people propose for the Republic I am reminded all too much of Heinlein's Future History stories of the American Christian Theocracy.

73 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:18:04am

re: #69 J.S.

He should focus on education in the UK. It's in a sorry state.

Yes, the UK is a sorry state.

74 MPH  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:18:27am

I'd like to see the names of those 0.9%.

75 Karridine  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:18:50am

re: #62 MandyManners

Possibly MORE importantly, if America sets precedent with ONE I-D book, it opens the door to Islamo-fascist creationist stories, and they ARE there!

76 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:19:34am

re: #73 victor_yugo

Yes, the UK is a sorry state.

Wait, it must be a country...or is that a continent?///

77 bosforus  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:19:37am

I'd like to ask them how it feels to be in the sixth sigma.

78 DistantThunder  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:19:50am

re: #55 Bumr50

GM is ending out a letter to all owners telling them to support the bailout saying that its a loan that will be repaid. LMAO!

I will NOT buy American cars if I know some Obama-toe-sucking union is behind them. I know the unions have always been there, but now it's personal.

79 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:20:47am

re: #72 FurryOldGuyJeans

A religious theocracy doesn't care about that silly nonsense. When I see what these people propose for the Republic I am reminded all too much of Heinlein's Future History stories of the American Christian Theocracy.

Again, maybe I don't get out enough but, I don't see these people. Where would I look to find them? Right-thinking folks won't go for a theocracy.

80 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:21:28am

It is a strange and weak faith that must buttressed with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflys.

81 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:22:22am

re: #78 DistantThunder

I will NOT buy American cars if I know some Obama-toe-sucking union is behind them. I know the unions have always been there, but now it's personal.

The unions can go pound sand. Those $75/hour salaries and super benefit packages and pensions don't mean crap if the company goes under. The only ones who get anything out it are the union leaders and the regular workers get fucked.

82 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:22:37am

re: #75 Karridine

Possibly MORE importantly, if America sets precedent with ONE I-D book, it opens the door to Islamo-fascist creationist stories, and they ARE there!

Publishing a book does not mean it will be taught.

That said, you are right on target that Hoopie-the-Shit-Slinging Monkey and his fellow goons are watching this debate.

83 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:22:44am

re: #56 firepilot
Let's be all inclusive with creationism.

This would shake their tree!

84 HDrepub  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:23:19am

re: #42 buzzsawmonkey

The Disney-fication of America: Obambi in the White House, Bible Thumpers on the school boards...

They're selling independence
Obambi's in the White House
Mortgage on my life
Mortgage on my life.

Move
Down the road
I go

Ramble Tamble

85 Bill Dalasio  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:23:24am

Perhaps the thing that most annoys me about the entire Intelligent Design case is the fact that the actual dictates of the theory wind up completely, utterly, and inexorably possible to pin down. When challenged, its advocates make the entire doctrine out as something as innocuous as noting patterns in evolution or acknowledging the possibilty that evolution may have some theistic basis. The minute that one drops the challenge, they start pushing something just shy of out-and-out creationism. Of, course, only to revert to the original variation when challenged.

86 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:23:33am

re: #46 funky chicken

This same thing happened in Kansas several years ago. The result is that Kansas just elected their first democrat governor in decades.

Yes, Virginia, this kind of nonsense really does turn people away from the GOP.

Apparently CO had an initiative to pronounce that life started at conception this year. That could explain why CO went so intensely democrat this year also. Even in conservative states, the extreme religious right turns off voters big time.

If they keep this up in TX, expect to see it go for democrats in about a decade....just like KS did. The trajectory is exactly the same...the creationists worked for many years in KS to take over the state school board, and got anti-evolution garbage put into the state education curriculum ... and the GOP kept coddling these people even after they were defeated ... and even Kansas, home of Alf Landon, abandoned the GOP.

87 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:23:35am

re: #64 Pyrocles

I truly believe that most of those that we call "socialist" are mostly "idealist."

Look at Europe, where they eschew their Judeo-Christian based legal systems in the interest of being nonsecular, and Islam moves in so quickly to fill the void that it almost doesn't exist.

You cannot "progress" without factoring in these undesirable yet inescapable issues.

88 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:23:39am

re: #6 FurryOldGuyJeans

Their opinion won't matter when the Texas Schools Commission (or whatever the hell it's called) order the Pro-ID textbooks for the entire state.

And the rest of the nation follows.

89 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:25:06am

re: #79 MandyManners

Again, maybe I don't get out enough but, I don't see these people. Where would I look to find them? Right-thinking folks won't go for a theocracy.

hotair.com

michellemalkin.com

freerepublic.com

read the comment sections any time one of these issues comes up.

how about discoveryinstitute.com

90 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:25:29am

I see the way a lizard posted recently:

Public School: Evolution.
Private School: Creationism.

91 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:25:49am

re: #80 Ojoe

It is a strange and weak faith that must buttressed with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflys.

How about an Iron Butterfly?

92 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:25:53am

re: #71 MandyManners

Maybe I don't get out enough but, I don't know of any churches around here that are organizing to destroy science.

Mandy- I just think that if a person reads the Bible and walks away from it thinking they need to destroy evolution, then I think they really kinda missed the point.

93 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:26:26am

re: #71 MandyManners

Maybe I don't get out enough but, I don't know of any churches around here that are organizing to destroy science.

But are there any that are active in opposing the DI/Creationist push? We complain about the moderate Muslims (especially the mullahs) that do nothing to condemn Radical Islam, even going as far as saying they all support it, and yet utter not a peep when the same thing happens with the push for a Christian Theocracy here. As individuals here we condemn the radicalization of Christianity, but we never (at least I don't) see any organized opposition to fanaticism.

94 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:26:37am

I am a believer that God created the Earth. I believe his hand is apparent in all things in creation. That being said, I always wonder how pseudo-science helps the work of God? I always wonder about people who seek physical proof to their FAITH.

My faith dictates to me that God created heaven and earth and all things therein. Every time truth is discovered (in this case evolution), more of His greatness is revealed. If truth revealed through science shakes your faith, time to re-examine what you believe.

I would like to know exactly how everything was created, it would be very interesting, quite frankly though, I have enough trouble with the very basics of Christianity to worry about how Noah crammed the dinosaurs in his ark.

95 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:27:02am

re: #80 Ojoe

It is a strange and weak faith that must buttressed with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflys.

Amen.

96 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:27:11am

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

Here in NYC, there is no ID/Creationist push at all so this issue is non existant...

97 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:27:12am

re: #90 Ben Hur

I see the way a lizard posted recently:

Public School: Evolution.
Private School: Creationism.

Not always true. Same with home schooling, as most people think if a person is home schooling their kids, then creationism is being taught.

98 whitehatguy  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:27:20am

Today I feel intelligently designed.

Hey, how about them Yankees. They are regrouping and
trying to buy another championship. Maybe $250M payroll
will do it. Lots of Luck.

99 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:27:26am

re: #91 MandyManners

Funny you should post that, "Inna-gadda-da-vida" started as "In the Garden of Eden", but it was too distorted on the recording to make out.

Rock On!


BBL

100 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:28:02am

re: #90 Ben Hur

I see the way a lizard posted recently:

Public School: Evolution.
Private School: Creationism.

Not necessarily. The Kid goes to a Christian school of the fundamental persuasion yet, evolution and evolution alone is taught as science.

101 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:28:22am

re: #74 MPH

I'd like to see the names of those 0.9%.

I'm frankly surprised that it is only 0.9%, given that these teachers are, for the most part, not graduates of a science curriculum, but of an education curriculum.

And yes, if I lived in Texas, I'd want to know their names also.

102 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:28:36am
103 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:28:39am

re: #87 Bumr50

I truly believe that most of those that we call "socialist" are mostly "idealist."

Quoting Burke on some other folks with a very similar sort of idealism:

"In the groves of their academy, at the end of every vista, you see nothing but the gallows."

Look at the record: they start out with the brotherhood of Man, equality, and freedom, and end up with a pile of skulls at the end of the day, and everybody's supposed to act surprised and nobody knows what happened.

104 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:28:55am

re: #99 Ojoe

Funny you should post that, "Inna-gadda-da-vida" started as "In the Garden of Eden", but it was too distorted on the recording to make out.

Rock On!

With the amount of drugs that were being consumed during that recording, it's amazing you can understand anything he's signing.

105 looking closely  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:28:57am

re: #85 Bill Dalasio

Perhaps the thing that most annoys me about the entire Intelligent Design case is the fact that the actual dictates of the theory wind up completely, utterly, and inexorably possible to pin down. When challenged, its advocates make the entire doctrine out as something as innocuous as noting patterns in evolution or acknowledging the possibilty that evolution may have some theistic basis. The minute that one drops the challenge, they start pushing something just shy of out-and-out creationism. Of, course, only to revert to the original variation when challenged.

Really, its very simple.

All this "Creationism"/"Intelligent Design" nonsense is just a convoluted way of trying to get around the numerous contradictions and cognitive dissonance that occurs when you take the first few paragraphs of the Bible as the literal truth.

106 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:02am

re: #98 whitehatguy

Today I feel intelligently designed.

Hey, how about them Yankees. They are regrouping and
trying to buy another championship. Maybe $250M payroll
will do it. Lots of Luck.

What did they do? I heard they offered Santana 240mil for 6 years. Did they get him?

107 apachegunner  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:14am

wow, I didn't know that, makes sense re: #99 Ojoe

Funny you should post that, "Inna-gadda-da-vida" started as "In the Garden of Eden", but it was too distorted on the recording to make out.

Rock On!


BBL

108 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:15am

re: #92 Sharmuta

Mandy- I just think that if a person reads the Bible and walks away from it thinking they need to destroy evolution, then I think they really kinda missed the point.

Where are those who are organizing on LOCAL levels? I don't see the DI anywhere around here. Are they preying on our representatives in the state capitols?

109 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:19am

re: #104 MrSilverDragon

Singing. Dangit. PIMF.

110 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:30am

re: #99 Ojoe

Ha Ha!

111 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:52am

re: #77 bosforus

I'd like to ask them how it feels to be in the sixth sigma.

They'd probably think that was a good thing.

112 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:29:54am

re: #107 apachegunner

wow, I didn't know that, makes sense

The singer was too drunk when it was recorded, but they liked it and it stuck.

113 Alouette  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:30:37am

re: #11 Sol Roth

[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

This link is busted. The first one you posted was much more intelligent and reasoned.

114 rawmuse  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:30:38am

re: #99 Ojoe

It was the Death of Diction that made that hit possible.
It would have never happened in the days of "Do that voodoo that you do so well".

115 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:30:40am

re: #96 tfc3rid

Here in NYC, there is no ID/Creationist push at all so this issue is non existant...

Not yet, but if it gets put onto Texas with textbooks it will spread because of the influence Texas has on the whole market countrywide.

116 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:30:42am

re: #108 MandyManners

Where are those who are organizing on LOCAL levels? I don't see the DI anywhere around here. Are they preying on our representatives in the state capitols?

I don't know. The PTA?

117 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:30:45am

re: #103 Guanxi88

Can you give me a link? I'd like to read.

118 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:03am

re: #98 whitehatguy

Today I feel intelligently designed.

A couple days ago, I felt stupidly-designed.

119 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:04am

re: #78 DistantThunder

I will NOT buy American cars if I know some Obama-toe-sucking union is behind them. I know the unions have always been there, but now it's personal.

The last American car I owned rusted out in the '70's.

120 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:05am

re: #77 bosforus

I'd like to ask them how it feels to be in the sixth sigma.

Yeah, how about that last night? I guess I didn't realize I was playing out in the fast lane! Fortunately, I am still here.

121 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:08am

I'm from Texas, lived here most of my life. The bible thumpers and creationists have been around for a long, long time. Mostly, they are content to witness on an individual basis, but every decade or so they get politically active, especially when doped with sophistic ID propaganda that sounds scientific. Ninety-nine percent of them have no idea what it or evolution means, just that it's a threat to their belief system.

You see from the study above that rationalists do permeate the education system. For that reason, even though we may see Texas adopt one of these dopey textbooks, the rationalist parents, schoolboards and three members of the science curricula committee will immunize the education system against this crap.

My concern stems from the larger signal. That is we are seeing a backlash by Christianity against the communist, atheistic Left. It's an over-correction and a distraction from the Left about to swing it's Stalinist club against the citizenry.

That worries me more than anything.

122 apachegunner  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:12am

re: #112 coquimbojoe

The singer was too drunk when it was recorded, but they liked it and it stuck.


man oh man, where was I? Oh yeah, acid.

123 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:26am

Intelligent design. I jsut say God created the Laws of Science and Evolution and watch the ID's twitch, hem and haw over that one...because it short circuts thier arguments typically

124 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:31:53am

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

But are there any that are active in opposing the DI/Creationist push? We complain about the moderate Muslims (especially the mullahs) that do nothing to condemn Radical Islam, even going as far as saying they all support it, and yet utter not a peep when the same thing happens with the push for a Christian Theocracy here. As individuals here we condemn the radicalization of Christianity, but we never (at least I don't) see any organized opposition to fanaticism.

As I noted in my No. 108, The Kid's school is a fundamental Christian school but I guarantee you that parents would be up and arms--and would leave in droves--if the school tried to ditch evolution in science classes or tried to introduce YEC or ID. That stuff is the province of some home-schoolers.

125 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:32:03am

re: #115 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not yet, but if it gets put onto Texas with textbooks it will spread because of the influence Texas has on the whole market countrywide.

Doubt it... Not here... Not a chance...

126 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:32:11am

re: #117 Bumr50

Can you give me a link? I'd like to read.

http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/burke/ revfrance.pdf

127 Logician  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:32:36am

2.3% of biology professors in Texas are absurdly incompetent in their own field. That's frighteningly high.

128 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:32:39am

re: #124 MandyManners

As I noted in my No. 108, The Kid's school is a fundamental Christian school but I guarantee you that parents would be up and arms--and would leave in droves--if the school tried to ditch evolution in science classes or tried to introduce YEC or ID. That stuff is the province of some home-schoolers.

What does YEC mean?

129 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:32:42am

re: #99 Ojoe

Funny you should post that, "Inna-gadda-da-vida" started as "In the Garden of Eden", but it was too distorted on the recording to make out.

Rock On!


BBL

Yes, the irony got to me.

130 Dianna  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:32:49am

re: #118 victor_yugo

A couple days ago, I felt stupidly-designed.

Happens to me all the time!

131 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:33:10am

re: #100 MandyManners

Not necessarily. The Kid goes to a Christian school of the fundamental persuasion yet, evolution and evolution alone is taught as science.

Also many private schools fill a specific need, such as military type (discipline) environment, or specializing in the arts. Sometimes a private school is created to fulfill a need for a school in the area that is not running amok with stupid policies or inconsistent discipline or parents don't want their kids going through metal detectors in the door environment.

132 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:33:19am

re: #119 Son of the Black Dog

Check out this Ford plant in Brazil.

Eat that UAW.

133 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:33:30am

re: #126 Guanxi88

Thanx!

134 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:33:49am

re: #80 Ojoe

It is a strange and weak faith that must buttressed with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflys.

Yup. Their arguement is God, an omnipotent and all knowing creator, would not be able to create a universe over millions of years and use subtle things like evolution, natural selection and other observable phenomenon to achieve his goals.

135 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:33:53am

re: #121 Sol Roth

That is we are seeing a backlash by Christianity against the communist, atheistic Left. It's an over-correction and a distraction from the Left about to swing it's Stalinist club against the citizenry.

Hmmmm, interesting.

So if the Left goes "off the reservation," so to speak, and we chase them down to smack them around a bit... we go off the reservation, too.

136 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:34:18am

re: #130 Dianna
I call it having a blond day and I'm not blond

137 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:34:37am

re: #116 Sharmuta

I don't know. The PTA?

Not around here. I don't attend public school PTA/school board meetings right now but, I talk to parents who do and they are watching. No sign now.

138 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:34:44am

re: #125 tfc3rid

Doubt it... Not here... Not a chance...

Read up on the Wilson Administration, then come back and try to say it can never happen here.

139 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:35:19am

re: #137 MandyManners

That's good! Keep 'em out.

140 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:35:19am

re: #123 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Intelligent design. I jsut say God created the Laws of Science and Evolution and watch the ID's twitch, hem and haw over that one...because it short circuts thier arguments typically

That argument doesn't work. Creationists see the bible as literal truth.

141 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:35:39am

re: #123 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Intelligent design. I jsut say God created the Laws of Science and Evolution and watch the ID's twitch, hem and haw over that one...because it short circuts thier arguments typically

Eggzactly.

142 HDrepub  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:35:47am

re: #128 coquimbojoe

What does YEC mean?

Young Earth Creationism, the belief the earth is approx. 6000 yrs old

143 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:35:47am
144 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:36:26am

re: #128 coquimbojoe

What does YEC mean?

Young Earth Creationism, that the world is exactly 6,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.

145 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:36:49am

re: #113 Alouette

This link is busted. The first one you posted was much more intelligent and reasoned.

I clicked on it and it works. Perhaps you mean the first, unworking link makes more sense? Ha!

146 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:01am

OT: Look at Drudge:

HONG KONG CARGO SHIP HIJACKED BY PIRATES... DEVELOPING...

Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia... Developing...

Danish oil ship briefly seized off Nigeria... Developing...

147 Dianna  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:04am

re: #136 Cathypop

I call it having a blond day and I'm not blond

Unfortunately, I am. Sort of.

I comfort myself that in a decade or so, I'm pretty sure I'll be a silver-headed lizard.

148 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:12am

re: #124 MandyManners

As I noted in my No. 108, The Kid's school is a fundamental Christian school but I guarantee you that parents would be up and arms--and would leave in droves--if the school tried to ditch evolution in science classes or tried to introduce YEC or ID. That stuff is the province of some home-schoolers.

How many kids are not in thrall to the public school system, though? And how many parents of kids in the public school system take a pro-active role in monitoring what the schools are teaching? You do not represent the majority, sad to say.

149 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:24am

re: #138 FurryOldGuyJeans

Read up on the Wilson Administration, then come back and try to say it can never happen here.

By 'here' I mean NYC... They can teach Heather Has Two Mommies but would NEVER be able to teach anything remotely religious...

150 looking closely  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:48am

re: #119 Son of the Black Dog

The last American car I owned rusted out in the '70's.


I like American cars, and actually bought one fairly recently.

But I still don't want to see the gov't bail out the auto industry.

I say if it can't compete, let it fail. The US gov't and taxpayers in particular shouldn't be subsidizing non-competitive behavior. You don't prop up dinosaurs, and the analogy to Darwinian survival is pretty apt here.

Let the auto-workers union get eliminated if it doesn't add to the competitiveness of the industry

Meanwhile Honda, BMW, Toyota, and others still make cars right here in the USA. . .there are still going to be plenty of cars built here.

If there is anything left saving from the American companies (and there likely is), the remnants can be bought out by a Japanese (or other) automaker, or private equity, after a nice bankrupcy and debt reorganization.

I'd like to see what a 2013 Honda-Ford Mustang looks like!

151 fish  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:49am

After reading the actual questions as they were asked, I have some issues with the survey. All of the responses seemed to include a black and white hard answer yes or no about a creator. I think the correct approach should be something like this:

Modern evolutionary biology is largely correct in its essentials, but still has open questions for active scientific research, and we should not prejudge what the answers to those open questions may or may not be

152 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:37:59am

re: #144 MandyManners

Young Earth Creationism, that the world is exactly 6,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.

The Bible just said something about the 6 days of work and the day off...

Was the world flat then too?

153 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:38:00am

re: #119 Son of the Black Dog

The last American car I owned rusted out in the '70's.

Can't complain too much. We are still driving the 1999 Ford Escort with over 275,000 mileage and running like a champ. No rust. Just a sagging headliner, but thats too be expected almost ten years later in our humidity. Oh yeah, and them "plastic" headlights are cloudy. ;-)>

154 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:38:11am

re: #131 Outrider

Also many private schools fill a specific need, such as military type (discipline) environment, or specializing in the arts. Sometimes a private school is created to fulfill a need for a school in the area that is not running amok with stupid policies or inconsistent discipline or parents don't want their kids going through metal detectors in the door environment.

Or, is filled with kids and teachers who are dumber than a box of rocks as is the case here.

(GOTC is in no way one of those teachers.)

155 coquimbojoe  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:38:16am

re: #144 MandyManners

Young Earth Creationism, that the world is exactly 6,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.

Makes my brain itch.

156 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:38:17am

re: #146 SeafoodGumbo

Interesting that the bad guys suddenly feel empowered...

157 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:38:44am

re: #139 Sharmuta

That's good! Keep 'em out.

We do our best.

158 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:39:05am

re: #140 Basho

I'm going to have to agree with the premise that, while we must be vigilant in our keeping creationism out of the public sector, it's just not as pervasive as some would suggest.

159 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:39:23am

re: #156 tfc3rid

I think they meant to hold off until late January, but just sort of got caught up in the excitement

160 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:39:27am

re: #156 tfc3rid

Interesting that the bad guys suddenly feel empowered...

What does "briefly" mean?

161 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:40:10am

re: #160 Right mind left

What does "briefly" mean?

Yeah, that's what I wonder...

162 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:40:32am

re: #161 tfc3rid

Yeah, that's what I wonder...

So was there swashbuckling going on?

163 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:41:10am

re: #135 victor_yugo

Hmmmm, interesting.

So if the Left goes "off the reservation," so to speak, and we chase them down to smack them around a bit... we go off the reservation, too.

We? I think irrationality can unify both extremes of the political scale. It's the use-of-force in confiscatory taxation and anti-weapons laws, whichever side they emanate from, that I fear most.

164 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:41:20am

re: #149 tfc3rid

By 'here' I mean NYC... They can teach Heather Has Two Mommies but would NEVER be able to teach anything remotely religious...

Given the right push anything is possible, and the IDers are doing the pushing. The DI is on record as allying itself with Radical Islamic Creationists, and so the Liberal love of diversity could very well be the entry point by allowing for religious tolerance with the alliance.

165 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:41:29am

re: #162 Right mind left

Who knows... Little cannon fighting, a little Keira Knightly... Ooooh, wait... Wrong Pirates...

166 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:41:37am
167 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:42:21am

re: #152 Right mind left

The Bible just said something about the 6 days of work and the day off...

Was the world flat then too?

Doesn't the Torah address it as 6,000 years old? Something about the calender. I thought someone on LGF was saying that the other night.

Just asking so don't get all silly about it.

168 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:42:52am

re: #140 Basho

That argument doesn't work. Creationists see the bible as literal truth.

Not all. Creationism is not a single-faceted belief.

169 Hard Right  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:00am

re: #150 looking closely

I like American cars, and actually bought one fairly recently.

But I still don't want to see the gov't bail out the auto industry.

I say if it can't compete, let it fail. The US gov't and taxpayers in particular shouldn't be subsidizing non-competitive behavior. You don't prop up dinosaurs, and the analogy to Darwinian survival is pretty apt here.

Let the auto-workers union get eliminated if it doesn't add to the competitiveness of the industry

Meanwhile Honda, BMW, Toyota, and others still make cars right here in the USA. . .there are still going to be plenty of cars built here.

If there is anything left saving from the American companies (and there likely is), the remnants can be bought out by a Japanese (or other) automaker, or private equity, after a nice bankrupcy and debt reorganization.

I'd like to see what a 2013 Honda-Ford Mustang looks like!

It would be nice not to see people lose their pensions, but the UAW may have given GM no other choice but to declare bankruptcy.
The bailout cash will come with so many strings attatched it will be little more than a poison pill.

170 apachegunner  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:00am

how about "specter" hardware bow and stern, no problems re: #166 taxfreekiller

Of some note:

The last time America stomped these pirates, looks like this is the new
front by Old Ben Loud One and his thugs.

Why?

No country to blame, no place to direct your forces, they are dispersed
over wide areas of the world in small units, "jungle warfare" in the oceans.

171 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:39am

re: #166 taxfreekiller

Tripoli and her pirates were a shining moment in Marine Corps history. Time to repeat history with full knowledge of the past? ;)

172 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:46am

re: #146 SeafoodGumbo

OT: Look at Drudge:

HONG KONG CARGO SHIP HIJACKED BY PIRATES... DEVELOPING...

Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia... Developing...

Danish oil ship briefly seized off Nigeria... Developing...

I say we set out some bait. When the pirates board the ship, torpedo it and sink it.

173 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:46am

re: #132 Bumr50

Check out this Ford plant in Brazil.

Eat that UAW.

YES!

174 tfc3rid  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:50am

re: #164 FurryOldGuyJeans

Given the right push anything is possible, and the IDers are doing the pushing. The DI is on record as allying itself with Radical Islamic Creationists, and so the Liberal love of diversity could very well be the entry point by allowing for religious tolerance with the alliance.

While NYC Libs are definitely all about Kumbaya, they are Kumbaya with the Islamics but there is little regard for Christians...

Schools here can put up the Menorah for Chanukkah and the crescent moon for Ramadan and the Kwanzahh bush for Kwaanzaa but forget even showing a Nativity scene...

Any discussion of creationsim in science calss as a legit science would never happen here in NYC... Ever.

175 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:43:59am

re: #165 tfc3rid

Who knows... Little cannon fighting, a little Keira Knightly... Ooooh, wait... Wrong Pirates...

Look out for Davey Jones' locker! AAARGGHHHH!

Ragnar did it best, of course...

176 Bumr50  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:44:14am

re: #165 tfc3rid

Too bad they aren't the Pittsburgh Pirates. Then they'd just give up...

177 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:44:53am

re: #148 FurryOldGuyJeans

How many kids are not in thrall to the public school system, though? And how many parents of kids in the public school system take a pro-active role in monitoring what the schools are teaching? You do not represent the majority, sad to say.

True but, a higher percentage of our students will be going to university than those from the public school sector. And, I'm talking not just of the religious schools but of the non-religious schools, too.

178 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:44:54am

re: #167 Outrider

Doesn't the Torah address it as 6,000 years old? Something about the calender. I thought someone on LGF was saying that the other night.

Just asking so don't get all silly about it.

Well, back when these BOOKS were written, they didn't have much else to go on, so 6,000 sounded good...///

179 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:45:12am

re: #156 tfc3rid

Interesting that the bad guys suddenly feel empowered...

Putin waited all of five or ten minutes to start threatening. It's going to be a long four years.

180 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:45:13am

re: #154 MandyManners

Or, is filled with kids and teachers who are dumber than a box of rocks as is the case here.

(GOTC is in no way one of those teachers.)

I hear that! I despise the "go at the pace of the slowest student" approach. I was a disciplinary problem in high school for that very reason. We would STILL be covering topics on Friday that were brought up on Monday. And any intelligent person could read the schedule of the wall and see we were always weeks behind. So much had to be learned by the student as the class never got around to it.

181 Hard Right  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:45:22am

re: #174 tfc3rid

While NYC Libs are definitely all about Kumbaya, they are Kumbaya with the Islamics but there is little regard for Christians...

Schools here can put up the Menorah for Chanukkah and the crescent moon for Ramadan and the Kwanzahh bush for Kwaanzaa but forget even showing a Nativity scene...

Any discussion of creationsim in science calss as a legit science would never happen here in NYC... Ever.

Simple. They fear the Muslims. They do not fear the Christians. I'm not suggesting anything, just stating facts.

182 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:45:33am

re: #152 Right mind left

The Bible just said something about the 6 days of work and the day off...

Was the world flat then too?

I don't think so. It's not as if God suddenly shaped it from one shape to another.

183 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:46:01am

re: #155 coquimbojoe

Makes my brain itch.

Some bishop decided that ages ago.

184 kc8ukw  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:46:03am

Science isn't done by consensus though, or shouldn't be. Michael Crichton has a great little blurb called "Aliens cause global warming" about this that you might be able to dig up on wsj.com if you're interested.

185 victor_yugo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:46:10am

re: #168 MandyManners

Not all. Creationism is not a single-faceted belief.

Sorry, Mandy, but I gotta take you up on that.

"Creationism" is a term chosen to hide a political agenda, the same as "pro-choice." "Creationism" is no more about believing in a creating Intelligence than "pro-choice" is about choice.

186 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:46:12am

re: #168 MandyManners

Not all. Creationism is not a single-faceted belief.

True, but my point being that saying "why can't evolution be God's way of doing things?" isn't a persuasive argument to these people.

187 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:46:21am

re: #179 SeafoodGumbo

Putin waited all of five or ten minutes to start threatening. It's going to be a long four years.

These purported pirates are probably just an excuse to mobilize over there...

Hey, it was those PIRATES again...we took care of it, nothing more to see here!

188 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:46:39am

re: #172 victor_yugo

Yeah, didn't they call those "Q" ships during the Great War?

189 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:03am

re: #172 victor_yugo

I say we set out some bait. When the pirates board the ship, torpedo it and sink it.

I wonder so many Iranian ships are getting hit. Wonder if they are just dropping stuff off there covertly.

190 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:11am

re: #182 MandyManners

I don't think so. It's not as if God suddenly shaped it from one shape to another.

Must have been their heads. It just looks flat when you look at it like that (squeeze...)

191 Sol Roth  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:15am

Off to re-center myself.

Hasta luego ya'll.

192 right_on_target  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:18am

re: #40 reine.de.tout

Good point, and one for which I can be thankful here in La.
Jindal signed a bill that would allow "alternate" ideas to be discussed (ID, creationism), but I have not seen that people here have much understanding of what that really means.

If Texas can keep the books straight, that's great.
And maybe La. will be able to hire some of those Texas teachers.


_______________________________________
The Louisiana law says "supplemental" theories may be taught in addition to the presently prescribed scientific curricula. There are no mandates to supply main textbooks that teach creationism or global warming. The law opened a can of worms for ALL KINDS of wacky theories that can be taught, not just creationism or intelligent design.
In our parish [county] we have ONE school that teaches both and it is a private Christian school. That school teaches evolution as a "theory".

193 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:29am

re: #172 victor_yugo

I say we set out some bait. When the pirates board the ship, torpedo it and sink it.

I nominate a Greenpeace ship.

194 Steve Rogers  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:56am

98% huh? That's even less than the amount of identical DNA that humans and chimpanzees share. - explain that one creationists. And while you're at it, explain why we humans have tailbones.

Perhaps the other 2% of Texas Science "Professors" are the lab chimps?

195 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:47:58am

re: #183 MandyManners

Some bishop decided that ages ago.

The same bishop IIRC also had Jesus being born approx. 6 years before he was born (BC/AD). Oh yeah, his math was unimpeachable.

196 bosforus  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:48:20am

re: #120 coquimbojoe

Yeah, how about that last night? I guess I didn't realize I was playing out in the fast lane! Fortunately, I am still here.

Most fortunate. A coquimbo banning would have officially blown my mind!

197 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:48:55am

re: #193 SeafoodGumbo

I nominate a Greenpeace ship.

Yeah, make it look like it is a well-meaning cruise for a whole bunch of moonbats and then...(Mandy, where is that clue-by-four?)

198 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:49:06am

re: #164 FurryOldGuyJeans

Given the right push anything is possible, and the IDers are doing the pushing. The DI is on record as allying itself with Radical Islamic Creationists, and so the Liberal love of diversity could very well be the entry point by allowing for religious tolerance with the alliance.

I don't see the Muslims aligning with a pro-homosexual agenda.

199 monkeytime  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:49:13am

Glad my Catholic faith believes in evolution and God.
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

200 bosforus  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:49:21am

re: #111 Son of the Black Dog

They'd probably think that was a good thing.

Ha ha, it takes a special something to be in the 2% category of anything.

201 right_on_target  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:49:37am

re: #132 Bumr50

Check out this Ford plant in Brazil.

Eat that UAW.


___________________________
The UAW would go for it, except there would be twice as many people on payroll watching the cars being built.

202 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:50:19am

re: #180 Outrider

I hear that! I despise the "go at the pace of the slowest student" approach. I was a disciplinary problem in high school for that very reason. We would STILL be covering topics on Friday that were brought up on Monday. And any intelligent person could read the schedule of the wall and see we were always weeks behind. So much had to be learned by the student as the class never got around to it.

Same here. I read ahead so I was always bored stiff. I ran my mouth a lot. (Can you believe it?)

203 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:50:27am
204 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:50:31am

re: #201 right_on_target

___________________________
The UAW would go for it, except there would be twice as many people on payroll watching the cars being built.

Wouldn't they be there distracting the workers with another leaflet?//

205 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:51:18am

re: #185 victor_yugo

Sorry, Mandy, but I gotta take you up on that.

"Creationism" is a term chosen to hide a political agenda, the same as "pro-choice." "Creationism" is no more about believing in a creating Intelligence than "pro-choice" is about choice.

Well, I believe pro-choice means exactly that.

But, that's neither here nor there.

206 apachegunner  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:52:01am

re: #180 Outrider
"outbased education" the defining of the dumbing down of the nation

207 pelopidas[deleted]  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:52:01am
208 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:52:56am

re: #187 Right mind left

These purported pirates are probably just an excuse to mobilize over there...

Hey, it was those PIRATES again...we took care of it, nothing more to see here!

Very interesting idea. China has been flexing a lot more in Africa and Central America. I wonder if they....nah, that'd make the price of oil go up which is bad for them. The Russians have been flexing more also, though, and the price of oil rising would help them.

Who knows? It's probably just crazed Somalis acting in their self interest, or to finance jihad, but you can never discount Russians. Soviets were behind a lot of the anti-war protests in the 70's, terror groups in the 70's, anti-nuke protests in the 80's, and other groups in the U.S. in the previous decades, so I never discount them having a hand in something rotten.

The recent drop in the price of oil has to be putting the hurt on Russia quite bad. I'm sure they're doing something behind the scenes to try to drive the price back up.

209 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:53:16am

re: #153 Outrider

Can't complain too much. We are still driving the 1999 Ford Escort with over 275,000 mileage and running like a champ. No rust. Just a sagging headliner, but thats too be expected almost ten years later in our humidity. Oh yeah, and them "plastic" headlights are cloudy. ;-)>

Actually, based on some rental cars I've driven recently, I will at least consider some selected American cars the next time I buy. (I've owned several American made cars, just not big three nameplates.)

210 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:53:56am

re: #186 Basho

True, but my point being that saying "why can't evolution be God's way of doing things?" isn't a persuasive argument to these people.

Because they're ideologues.

211 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:53:59am

re: #207 pelopidas

Start your own blog. Bye-bye.

212 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:54:35am

re: #146 SeafoodGumbo

OT: Look at Drudge:

HONG KONG CARGO SHIP HIJACKED BY PIRATES... DEVELOPING...

Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia... Developing...

Danish oil ship briefly seized off Nigeria... Developing...

Let China, Iran, and Denmark handle it. I'm frankly tired of being everybody's first responder, just to have them knife us in the back for it.

Unless we do just torpedo these bastards. It would likely give the Somali bastards pause, but it would also kill innocent sailors. shrug. That's why we need to just step back and let these other nations handle dealing with islamocriminals. You know, they could prove their genius and all.

213 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:54:51am

re: #190 Right mind left

Must have been their heads. It just looks flat when you look at it like that (squeeze...)

I'm not gonna' insult them because many who believe are not trying to shove it down anyone's throats.

214 yitzy  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:55:06am

How 'bout:

99% IS NOT A MANDATE!

/sarc

215 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:55:16am

re: #208 SeafoodGumbo

Very interesting idea. China has been flexing a lot more in Africa and Central America. I wonder if they....nah, that'd make the price of oil go up which is bad for them. The Russians have been flexing more also, though, and the price of oil rising would help them.

Who knows? It's probably just crazed Somalis acting in their self interest, or to finance jihad, but you can never discount Russians. Soviets were behind a lot of the anti-war protests in the 70's, terror groups in the 70's, anti-nuke protests in the 80's, and other groups in the U.S. in the previous decades, so I never discount them having a hand in something rotten.

The recent drop in the price of oil has to be putting the hurt on Russia quite bad. I'm sure they're doing something behind the scenes to try to drive the price back up.

Yep, it seems the cargo mysteriously disappears...or shows up untouched somewhere...curiouser and curiouser I say.

216 Charles  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:55:39am

Comments telling me not to post about this topic will be deleted.

217 bosforus  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:55:40am

re: #212 funky chicken

You're such a heartless racist!
/

218 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:55:47am

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

The same bishop IIRC also had Jesus being born approx. 6 years before he was born (BC/AD). Oh yeah, his math was unimpeachable.

The date doesn't matter. The fact that He was born, lived, died and was resurrected is all that matters.

219 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:56:12am

re: #213 MandyManners

I'm not gonna' insult them because many who believe are not trying to shove it down anyone's throats.

The world is flat?

220 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:56:58am

Thread, ho!

221 Iron Fist  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:57:47am

re: #66 victor_yugo

Unless you're into psychopathic homosexuals, a comparison to Andrew Sullivan is not exactly a compliment.

(I noticed the same thing too)

222 apachegunner  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:58:49am

re: #219 Right mind left

The world is flat?


if your a creationist and refuse the edits of the sciences why not?

223 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:59:06am

re: #212 funky chicken

Let China, Iran, and Denmark handle it. I'm frankly tired of being everybody's first responder, just to have them knife us in the back for it.

Unless we do just torpedo these bastards. It would likely give the Somali bastards pause, but it would also kill innocent sailors. shrug. That's why we need to just step back and let these other nations handle dealing with islamocriminals. You know, they could prove their genius and all.

Sigh, that would be nice. But hijacked Saudi oil is our problem...

224 apachegunner  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 10:59:48am

awwwww, gas is to cheap anyway

225 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:00:46am

re: #193 SeafoodGumbo

I nominate a Greenpeace ship.

How about those down there screwing with the Japanese whalers? They seem likely targe...... candidates.

226 Iron Fist  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:01:25am

re: #205 MandyManners

The "pro-choicers" sure jumped Sarah Palin's ass for making the wrong chioce. If I were someone with a handicap like Downs I'd treat the ascension of the "pro-choice" crowd with both skepticism and a healthy dose of fear.

They seem pretty confident that they know whose life has meaning, and who should have never been born. I'm not handicapped, and it troubles me.

227 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:02:21am

re: #217 bosforus

LOL damn straight. I think it comes from having a husband who flies cargo jets for the USAF. Every single f***ing global disaster, and off he goes, carrying relief supplies to benighted backwaters. Weeks, adding up to months, adding up to years he is away from his own family, and for what?

To have the world spit at us and call us cowboys? I happen to love cowboys, so the insult kinda fails...but still.

And now to have the majority of American voters hire Barack F'n Obama to be his Commander in Chief?

Yeah, I'm bitter......

228 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:03:46am

re: #227 funky chicken

Amen.

229 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:04:07am

re: #223 Basho

Sigh, that would be nice. But hijacked Saudi oil is our problem...

Hey, the Sauds have bought tons of military hardware from us. Let them use it for once instead of just maintaining it for vanity toys for their princes.

230 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:06:23am

re: #226 Iron Fist

The "pro-choicers" sure jumped Sarah Palin's ass for making the wrong chioce. If I were someone with a handicap like Downs I'd treat the ascension of the "pro-choice" crowd with both skepticism and a healthy dose of fear.

They seem pretty confident that they know whose life has meaning, and who should have never been born. I'm not handicapped, and it troubles me.

Dude, have you read many PUMA blogs? Tons of pro-choice women strongly supported Sarah Palin. Look up Lynn Forrester de Rothschild. I think TeamSarah had some pro-choice women involved as well.

231 Basho  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:07:57am

re: #229 funky chicken

Hey, the Sauds have bought tons of military hardware from us. Let them use it for once instead of just maintaining it for vanity toys for their princes.

Blame those fatcats who aren't checking their tire-pressure.
/

232 Right mind left  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:09:07am

re: #222 apachegunner

if your a creationist and refuse the edits of the sciences why not?

So we could take them to the edge and.../

233 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:10:51am

re: #212 funky chicken

Let China, Iran, and Denmark handle it. I'm frankly tired of being everybody's first responder, just to have them knife us in the back for it.

Unless we do just torpedo these bastards. It would likely give the Somali bastards pause, but it would also kill innocent sailors. shrug. That's why we need to just step back and let these other nations handle dealing with islamocriminals. You know, they could prove their genius and all.

I hear ya. It's time for some of the dead weight to pick up the slack. This is also another reason why we should be drilling our own oil.

/lunchtime

234 pie22  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:18:37am

re: #226 Iron Fist
Hello. I found your comment interesting. I have a friend who teaches at a school for disabled children. I have recently asked her why no advocates for the disabled have been screaming from the roof tops about the treatment of Gov. Palins little boy. She did not know why. I was under the impression that the Kennedy family has a lot to do with the Special Olympics and the rights of the disabled. Not a peep from them.

235 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:18:45am

well, off to pay bills....

236 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:24:50am

re: #233 SeafoodGumbo

I hear ya. It's time for some of the dead weight to pick up the slack. This is also another reason why we should be drilling our own oil.

/lunchtime

Absolutely. I remain flabbergasted that a majority of American voters are too stupid, or too stubborn to understand the link between drilling our own damn oil, and using our own damn coal, and our continued involvement in wars in the Middle East.

People are all pissed off that we continue to spend 10 billion dollars a month in Iraq. People are pissed off that our economy is lousy and unemployment is rising.

But they voted for the guy that promised to bankrupt new coal plants and that is hostile to developing our own oil fields. The UAW has almost succeeded in killing our automotive industry here, but Americans voted for the guy who is ready to push card check on other industries....so the unions can bankrupt them too.

Aaargh, OK off to pay bills now.

237 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:26:41am

re: #209 Son of the Black Dog

Actually, based on some rental cars I've driven recently, I will at least consider some selected American cars the next time I buy. (I've owned several American made cars, just not big three nameplates.)

Throughout my life, I've owned many many cars (alright, some were only $50 and ran for 6 months). I've had VWs, BMWs, Audis, Fords, Toyotas, Dodges, Volvos, etc. Strangely enough I've never owned a Chevy? There were lemons in the foreign cars and strong cars in the American. Each model was different. Comes down to researching which is best each time eh?

238 Iron Fist  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:29:24am

re: #230 funky chicken

I haven't read any PUMA blogs, but I do know that the PUMAs didn't turn out for McCain in the numbers needed. I'm certainly not saying all pro-choicers were anti-Palin, but the vocal one that got the press coverage were all hostile to her. And a lot of that was because she chose not to have an abortion.

Me, I don't know what I'd want to do in that situation myself. But the idea that Downs Syndrome children should be aborted is kind of chilling. That's a lot of people that they are essentially saying would be better off dead.

239 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:34:06am

I knew most Texans were smart too.

240 jaunte  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:34:50am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

What happens when Texas high school students can't get into Texas colleges?

I recently attended my nephew's graduation from high school in Sugarland Texas. Most of the names of the magna cum laude and cum laude graduates were obviously either of Chinese ancestry or Indian. All Texas high school students, and responding to their parents expectations.

241 Outrider  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:35:32am

re: #238 Iron Fist

I haven't read any PUMA blogs, but I do know that the PUMAs didn't turn out for McCain in the numbers needed. I'm certainly not saying all pro-choicers were anti-Palin, but the vocal one that got the press coverage were all hostile to her. And a lot of that was because she chose not to have an abortion.

Me, I don't know what I'd want to do in that situation myself. But the idea that Downs Syndrome children should be aborted is kind of chilling. That's a lot of people that they are essentially saying would be better off dead.

Or could could go paranoid and extend this line of reasoning. Abort any child that isn't perfect? Then the wrong sex for the parents "needs"?

We already have folks preaching euthanasia for terminally ill or assisted suicide. When does that cross over to euthanasia for the caregivers convenience? Then the states because it is expensive to maintain care? Then because the group of people themselves are no longer convenient?

I can see it happening over a period of time as each generation becomes inured to the situation and accepts the new policies.

242 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:37:26am

re: #192 right_on_target

_______________________________________
The Louisiana law says "supplemental" theories may be taught in addition to the presently prescribed scientific curricula. There are no mandates to supply main textbooks that teach creationism or global warming. The law opened a can of worms for ALL KINDS of wacky theories that can be taught, not just creationism or intelligent design.
In our parish [county] we have ONE school that teaches both and it is a private Christian school. That school teaches evolution as a "theory".

The law did indeed open up a "can of worms".

The school systems will purchase whatever books are available, and if the available books make a point to defer to the wishes of the biggest users (Texas, Cali, others), then at least the books will be OK, and kids who read on their own will not be so left behind.

The full measure of the law has not yet taken effect, imo. It's too new. But there will be attempts to sneak in the creationism and ID agendas.

243 fish  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:39:46am

re: #238 Iron Fist

I haven't read any PUMA blogs, but I do know that the PUMAs didn't turn out for McCain in the numbers needed. I'm certainly not saying all pro-choicers were anti-Palin, but the vocal one that got the press coverage were all hostile to her. And a lot of that was because she chose not to have an abortion.

Me, I don't know what I'd want to do in that situation myself. But the idea that Downs Syndrome children should be aborted is kind of chilling. That's a lot of people that they are essentially saying would be better off dead.

Yeah I read a few quotes and heard a few soundbites that were saying essentially that: Palin is a horrible Mother and Worse Human Being for NOT having an abortion. In addition she most certainly forced her daughter to keep her child when it is obvious should wouldn't have done so on her own.

To people like this Pro Choice means that they support your right to do what they think is best

244 Charles  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:40:50am

re: #242 reine.de.tout

The law did indeed open up a "can of worms".

The school systems will purchase whatever books are available, and if the available books make a point to defer to the wishes of the biggest users (Texas, Cali, others), then at least the books will be OK, and kids who read on their own will not be so left behind.

The full measure of the law has not yet taken effect, imo. It's too new. But there will be attempts to sneak in the creationism and ID agendas.

In my opinion, the creationist efforts in Lousiana and Texas are linked, by the schoolbook issue. Explore Evolution is the Trojan Horse this time around, after Of Pandas and People was so thoroughly discredited in the Dover trial.

245 Land Shark  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 11:48:11am

The disturbing part is that 2% of biology professors might support this foolishness.

I'm a creationist and intelligent design believer, but I'm 100% opposed to teaching this matter of faith in science class. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until they give it up. Since it looks like they won't give it up, looks like I'll have to keep saying it. Damn!

246 MPH  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 12:00:39pm

I just finished The Language of God by Francis Collins (head of the Human Genome Project). It was a fun read and lays out a passionate (but not perfect) case for the notion of a Creator or God of the universe. Collins is a strong advocate of evolution and clearly and confidently takes the creationists and intelligent design advocates to task.

The book breaks down when Collins attempts to tie his belief in God to The Bible. As confident as Collins is in the realm of biology, he sounds anything but that when discussing the specifics of his faith. I'll leave speculations for why that might be to the reader.

Highly recommended regardless of your beliefs.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

247 MPH  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 12:04:48pm

re: #245 Land Shark

The disturbing part is that 2% of biology professors might support this foolishness.

I'm a creationist and intelligent design believer, but I'm 100% opposed to teaching this matter of faith in science class. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until they give it up. Since it looks like they won't give it up, looks like I'll have to keep saying it. Damn!

Can you explain that thought process out a bit more. I'm not sure if you believe the earth is 6000 years old or 4.5 billion years old. Regardless, creationism/ID by definition would need to see modern biology a flawed and in need of correcting. If you believe evolutionary theory is wrong, why do you support the teaching of it?

248 MPH  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 12:07:00pm

re: #236 funky chicken

Absolutely. I remain flabbergasted that a majority of American voters are too stupid, or too stubborn to understand the link between drilling our own damn oil, and using our own damn coal, and our continued involvement in wars in the Middle East.

I think this video (today's top rated LGF link) explains quite a bit of your frustration: [Link: copiousdissent.blogspot.com...]

249 Yashmak  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 12:26:47pm

I'm extremely reassured by these statistics. As much as we discuss this issue here, it's easy to forget how small a percentage of scholars actually believe this whole ID thing.

It will remain instructional to see how effectively a small movement (the ID'ers) are in taking on large organizations like public schools.

We should be paying attention, not just from the point of view of concern over ID vs. Evolution, but to the techniques used. It may be that they can be used in some way by concerned citizens to positively influence public schools in the future.

250 Kulhwch  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 12:47:13pm

re: #146 SeafoodGumbo

OT: Look at Drudge:

HONG KONG CARGO SHIP HIJACKED BY PIRATES... DEVELOPING...

Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia... Developing...

Danish oil ship briefly seized off Nigeria... Developing...

<singing> Yo-ho-ho, it's a pirate's life for me.

}:)     [Yar!]

251 Kulhwch  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 12:59:58pm

re: #172 victor_yugo

re: #146 SeafoodGumbo

OT: Look at Drudge:
HONG KONG CARGO SHIP HIJACKED BY PIRATES... DEVELOPING...
Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia... Developing...
Danish oil ship briefly seized off Nigeria... Developing...

I say we set out some bait. When the pirates board the ship, torpedo it and sink it.

Spodeboats.  I like it.

}:)     [Remote-controlled would be a plus, too ... ]

252 J.S.  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:04:25pm

re: #121 Sol Roth

My concern stems from the larger signal. That is we are seeing a backlash by Christianity against the communist, atheistic Left. It's an over-correction and a distraction from the Left about to swing it's Stalinist club against the citizenry.

There was an interesting paragraph (in the linked PDF which contained the actual survey results), titled: "Challenging the Stereotype."

That paragraph reads, in part:

Religious denominations and people of faith have moved in
recent years to push back against the stereotype that faith
is hostile to science. One example of such pushback is the
Clergy Letter Project.4 The Clergy Letter Project has gathered
more than 12,000 signatures from Christian and Jewish
clergy on a petition that states that “evolution is a foundational
scientific truth” and it can comfortably coexist with
religious belief. It appears that these clergy have a strong ally
in their cause among scientists at Texas institutions of higher
learning.
253 gdonovan  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:47:28pm

re: #62 MandyManners

The future of our nation's ability to produce scientists could be called into question if this nonsense takes root. This affects all.

Like global warming being pushed as science?

Sorry, don't buy global warming for a minute.

Everytime there has been some disaster on the horizon predicted it has turned out to be much ado about nothing.

Global freezing in the 70's, the population over-running the earth, dioxins, etc.

All a waste of time and money.

254 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:53:26pm

re: #253 gdonovan

Like global warming being pushed as science?

Sorry, don't buy global warming for a minute.

Everytime there has been some disaster on the horizon predicted it has turned out to be much ado about nothing.

Global freezing in the 70's, the population over-running the earth, dioxins, etc.

All a waste of time and money.

Trying to attack evolution by arguing against global warming is like trying to mow your lawn with a vacuum cleaner.

255 Land Shark  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:54:35pm

re: #247 MPH

Clearly, I need to clarify here. I believe God created the universe, and that evolution is His work. His mecahnism for running the universe. To me, science is reporting the "nuts and bolts" of His work, if you will, thus my belief in intelligent design.

None of this is provable or disprovable in science class, which should be based on the scientific method. It's a matter of faith that belongs in churches and temples, not in the science classroom. Science has always produced it's best results when left alone to be science. Believing that God created the universe does not exclude belief evolution, in my opinion.

256 zimriel  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:54:44pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

The article then goes on to complain about how right-wingers attacked an algebra book for including recipes, pictures, and references to Vietnam. I know a little something about teaching algebra, and recipes, pictures, and Vietnam are not essential parts of algebra. One can get along with x, y, z, circles, lines, graphs, rivers and tall buildings and cakes to be divided up by some rule or other. Nations that do far, far better than we do at teaching algebra get along just fine with no-nonsense algebra books about algebra.

The recipes and pictures are for girls. Girls get math-anxiety more than boys. They need that stuff to reassure them. c.f., Danica McKellar's books.

We are however agreed that Vietnam refs have no place in a math book that isn't destined for West Point.

257 incanus  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:57:43pm

re: #24 bloody barry


These creationists cannot expect reasonable people to consider them any more helpful than the most superstitious Saudi imam.

... therefore, ID is just as bad as Islamofascism. QED.

258 gdonovan  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 1:59:29pm

re: #254 Salamantis

Trying to attack evolution by arguing against global warming is like trying to mow your lawn with a vacuum cleaner.

My point is what is being pushed as solid science in the classrooms is hardly science at all in some cases. What is required is critical thinking, which is being strongly discouraged in public schools in favor of "feel good" crap.

Sort of like how DDT causes bird die offs even though there is no such evidence.

259 zimriel  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 2:04:20pm

re: #158 Bumr50

I'm going to have to agree with the premise that, while we must be vigilant in our keeping creationism out of the public sector, it's just not as pervasive as some would suggest.

Lucky you that creationism isn't pervasive around you. But I live in Texas. If you think the topic is boring, there are other threads more to your liking. I'm grateful to Charles for focusing a spotlight on our state.

260 Nemesis6  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 2:16:00pm

You guys should just get a rule on this: Every time someone in the scientific field counters something in Evolution by bringing up "intelligent agency", "intelligent designer", etc, that person should have all authority stripped. They might call themselves scientists, but this holds just as much water as Nazis calling themselves "concerned nationalists". When someone starts talking about the so-called "white race", they're shunned. Same should happen on the judiciary level of science.

261 Nemesis6  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 2:16:44pm

Correction/addition: When someone starts talking about "intelligent design".

262 incanus  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 2:17:20pm

re: #260 Nemesis6

You guys should just get a rule on this: Every time someone in the scientific field counters something in Evolution by bringing up "intelligent agency", "intelligent designer", etc, that person should have all authority stripped. They might call themselves scientists, but this holds just as much water as Nazis calling themselves "concerned nationalists". When someone starts talking about the so-called "white race", they're shunned. Same should happen on the judiciary level of science.

Oh, for sure. In fact, anytime anyone opposes any concensus theory, they should lose all rights and be forced to haul shit in a bag.

263 lincolntf  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 3:31:16pm

And this is what has everybody up in arms? I could find 5% of any population that would swear that the sky is green.
Life's too short to worry about the perpetual outliers.

264 Nemesis6  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 4:14:08pm

re: #262 incanus

This wouldn't be necessary if they weren't known for doing this crap. For some reason, two supreme court rulings does not keep these jackasses out of science. Obviously there's a problem enforcing this ruling, and until that problem is fixed, the easiest way is these two steps:
Identify Creationists, and get them away from the well before they start trying to poison it.

265 bitterclinger_in_PA  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 5:39:28pm

Evolution is a hoax and an hypothesis. Only morons believe in it. You swallow the kool aid of a disgruntled Christian Darwin who came up with this stupid idea on a ship trip across the ocean. His hoax hypothesized that reptiles turned into birds because he saw birds landed on his ship he was at sea. Wow and you all kool aid drinkers bought that because the liberal media on the history channel etc shoved it down your throat. Come on get the facts. Read Darwin's Demise or listen to many scientists articles on creationism. There are thousands of scientists like Einstein debunk this hoax at it's core a hundred years ago. I can't believe so-called conservatives on LGF have fallen for this.

266 Charles  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 5:57:12pm

Oh brother.

267 knojag  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 6:29:14pm

Hi,
Several years ago, a study was done by someone named Bishop at the Cincinnati College of Clinical Research. It was a while ago, I may be wrong about the attribution. The study had to do with what Americans believed regarding evolution/creationism. It was found that 45% believed in creationism, 45% believed in theistic evolution, and only 10% believed in classical Darwinism. The latter were described as academics and other intellectual types. I recently retired from my job as a public school teacher and have slowly seen the schools "evolve" into a delivery device for a very liberal national agenda. We have begun to teach the kids what to think, not how to think. While I object to the Texas state board mandating creationism as a science, I think it is important that students be exposed to why 90% of the population thinks a certain way. If we have done an effective job of teaching them how to think critically, we can trust them to make good decisions. To restrict their exposure to these ideas would be a play out of the liberal book. In my opinion.

268 Insert Clever Name Here  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 6:31:27pm

Well if 98% beleive it, it MUST be true.

Oh, hello, Flat Earth.

-ICNH

269 justadot  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 7:02:43pm

re: #267 knojag

While I object to the Texas state board mandating creationism as a science, I think it is important that students be exposed to why 90% of the population thinks a certain way. If we have done an effective job of teaching them how to think critically, we can trust them to make good decisions. To restrict their exposure to these ideas would be a play out of the liberal book.

But that should not be done in a science classroom – not by the state. If the kids really are critical thinkers, they can choose to learn about ID on their own – maybe in an elective class.

If you know ID doesn't belong in science class, then it's not a question of restricting ideas, it's a matter of not promoting ignorance.

270 Jim D  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 7:03:31pm

re: #267 knojag

It doesn't matter what some people believe. Evolution is completely uncontroversial as science. Exposure to unscientific ideas in a science class is not going to teach children how to think. Claiming that introducing ID or creationism in science class will help kids learn to think critically and allow them to make their own decisions is right out the DI play book and it's complete bullshit.

Including ID or creationism in a science class tells students that observation and experimentation are irrelevant. It gives credibility to silly ideas that cannot be supported by reason and evidence.

271 J.S.  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 7:14:33pm

re: #267 knojag

Well, then, if you believe in "critical thinking", then why are you citing survey research about what Americans believe -- and act as if this somehow pointed to "the truth"? No survey research claims that because "Gazillion number of X people believe fervently that Y exists" therefore, "Y exists!" You're misunderstanding what survey research is all about. It's all about gathering opinions, then formulating a conclusion about what a certain group perceives...or believes...Thus, one could conduct a survey of Evangelical group X, and conclude that 99 percent believe that "angels exist." That is not a demonstration that "angels exist."

272 Claire  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 7:29:32pm

re: #265 bitterclinger_in_PA

Bobby Jindal, is that you?

273 drmark  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 7:34:14pm

“The [Darwin] Exhibition treats the Darwinian Revolution as a single process dating from the Origin’s publication until today. The implicit idea is that science moves ever forward in a continuous line of accumulating evidence. But when that idea is tested against observed practice, the straight line transforms into a non-linear landscape of exotic shapes, with numerous dead ends and dramatic battles, whose direction at any point in time is contested.”
—Hiram Caton, “Getting Our History Right: Six Errors about Darwin and His Influence,” Evolutionary Psychology 2007.

274 mph  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 8:18:53pm

We just watched Ben Stein's "Expelled" documentary -- embarrassing and sad and ridiculous.

Just leaves you with a pit in your stomach.

275 BartB  Tue, Nov 18, 2008 9:30:26pm

I can't believe that no one remarked that a self-selected minority of the
people polled do not constitute a valid survey. Why not ask 464 members
of the Southern Baptists what they think? It would be just as valid, but
I suspect the results would be different. Just as scientific, just as valid,
though.

276 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 1:34:49am

re: #258 gdonovan

My point is what is being pushed as solid science in the classrooms is hardly science at all in some cases. What is required is critical thinking, which is being strongly discouraged in public schools in favor of "feel good" crap.

Sort of like how DDT causes bird die offs even though there is no such evidence.

DDT caused the eggshells of eagles to thin to the point where they would crack prematurely, causing the chicks to die before they naturally hatched.

277 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 1:40:47am

re: #265 bitterclinger_in_PA

Evolution is a hoax and an hypothesis. Only morons believe in it. You swallow the kool aid of a disgruntled Christian Darwin who came up with this stupid idea on a ship trip across the ocean. His hoax hypothesized that reptiles turned into birds because he saw birds landed on his ship he was at sea. Wow and you all kool aid drinkers bought that because the liberal media on the history channel etc shoved it down your throat. Come on get the facts. Read Darwin's Demise or listen to many scientists articles on creationism. There are thousands of scientists like Einstein debunk this hoax at it's core a hundred years ago. I can't believe so-called conservatives on LGF have fallen for this.

So now the overwhelming majority of scientists are morons, huh?

Darwin did not become disgruntled until his daughter died, after he had published Origin of Species. He meticulously collected and collated data from all over the world to support his theory. And massive amounts of corroborating evidence has been discovered since.

And Einstein was no creationist; he wasn't even a theist.

278 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 1:43:09am

re: #267 knojag

Hi,
Several years ago, a study was done by someone named Bishop at the Cincinnati College of Clinical Research. It was a while ago, I may be wrong about the attribution. The study had to do with what Americans believed regarding evolution/creationism. It was found that 45% believed in creationism, 45% believed in theistic evolution, and only 10% believed in classical Darwinism. The latter were described as academics and other intellectual types. I recently retired from my job as a public school teacher and have slowly seen the schools "evolve" into a delivery device for a very liberal national agenda. We have begun to teach the kids what to think, not how to think. While I object to the Texas state board mandating creationism as a science, I think it is important that students be exposed to why 90% of the population thinks a certain way. If we have done an effective job of teaching them how to think critically, we can trust them to make good decisions. To restrict their exposure to these ideas would be a play out of the liberal book. In my opinion.

Science is not a popularity contest. A flat earth circled by the sun didn't suddenly morph into a spherical earth circling the sun because peoples' opinions changed; peoples' opinions changed because the evidence became overwhelming that the earth was spherical and circled the sun. The same thing with evolution.

279 justadot  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 4:35:19am

re: #278 Salamantis

Sal, this is OT, but I saw this sometime back in the Spinoffs and I thought you'd want to see it. Take care.

280 knojag  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 5:17:15am

If you folks review my original post, you will notice that I didn't make a judgment on either evolution or creationism. My point that I think was missed is that, if 90% of Americans believe in either creationism or theistic evolution, it would make sense, at least from a sociological standpoint, to present the evidence held by BOTH sides of ANY issue and trust that you have taught them to think well enough to make a rational decision. When I started my career as a teacher 33 years ago in Minnesota, that was the purpose of education. Over the years, as liberalism began to grip the schools, it became obvious to me, being conservative, that only certain views are acceptable if you are going to be a free-thinking American. ("We are free-thinkers and this is what we think. Think them, and you can be a free-thinker too!") As I said in the earlier post, I do not support the teaching of creationism in science classes. After all the Bible was not written as a science book. But it makes perfect sense to me to expose the students to the ideas of the creationist to better inform them of the culture in which they live and further their ability to think critically. And they're going to need all of that they can get when they become college freshman!

281 Ron Shaw[deleted]  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 6:43:40am
282 Jim D  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 7:32:03am

re: #280 knojag

In the context of a science class, there are not multiple sides to this issue. There may be other classes in which this would be appropriate discussion, but not science.
And these folks are not interested in having creationism brought up in class to explore the culture of this country. They want it taught as a scientific theory. Pretending this is all about teaching kids to think critically is bullshit.

Children can learn to think critically by learning about real science and math.

283 amateurpundit  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 9:25:03am

Intelligent design is obviously hooey. Anyone can see that there's no intelligence on display in the universe. That's why I can crank out living cells from my $3,000,000,000,000 dollar lab any time I choose...or at least after my staff of 3,000,000 biologists get the funding they need. Getting them to reproduce will take more time, but it can be done!

Teaching kids to think critically in class? I say we teach them the party line on evolution! Just like we teach 'em about Washington and Jefferson! What? When did we stop doing that?

284 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 11:15:38am

re: #280 knojag

If you folks review my original post, you will notice that I didn't make a judgment on either evolution or creationism. My point that I think was missed is that, if 90% of Americans believe in either creationism or theistic evolution, it would make sense, at least from a sociological standpoint, to present the evidence held by BOTH sides of ANY issue and trust that you have taught them to think well enough to make a rational decision. When I started my career as a teacher 33 years ago in Minnesota, that was the purpose of education. Over the years, as liberalism began to grip the schools, it became obvious to me, being conservative, that only certain views are acceptable if you are going to be a free-thinking American. ("We are free-thinkers and this is what we think. Think them, and you can be a free-thinker too!") As I said in the earlier post, I do not support the teaching of creationism in science classes. After all the Bible was not written as a science book. But it makes perfect sense to me to expose the students to the ideas of the creationist to better inform them of the culture in which they live and further their ability to think critically. And they're going to need all of that they can get when they become college freshman!

There is no empirical evidence from the ID stance. Even its acolytes, such as George Gilder and Michael Medved, admit that it is 'content free.' They have no alternative scientific model with which to replace evolution. All they wanna do is tear down the scientific edifice, so they can build a dogmatic religious temple in its place.

285 MPH  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 11:26:45am

re: #275 BartB

I can't believe that no one remarked that a self-selected minority of the
people polled do not constitute a valid survey. Why not ask 464 members
of the Southern Baptists what they think? It would be just as valid, but
I suspect the results would be different. Just as scientific, just as valid,
though.

Watching "Expelled" -- Ben Stein spent the first half of the documentary saying this is science...then the second half, the mask came off. This is about religion.

The animated scene which showed how "complicated" a single cell is was particularly embarrassing. "Hey kids! Look how complex this little thing is! Are you stupid enough to believe 'darwinism' made this! Seriously! Just LOOK at it!"

286 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 11:54:10am

re: #279 justadot

Sal, this is OT, but I saw this sometime back in the Spinoffs and I thought you'd want to see it. Take care.

Thanxabunch, justadot! Much appreciated!

287 sissyblue[deleted]  Wed, Nov 19, 2008 6:08:43pm

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