Good...now maybe he'll catch something.........

This is just another win for the Jihadists!
/

I agree that racism and bigotry should be challenged, but I worry about who defines what is racist and bigoted. I think it can become a scary slippery slope when radicals on either side cry, "Racism!" to shut someone up.

I wonder at what point his apologists come to their senses.

So, At least he doesn't monitor his blog comments. Fascist hippies.

/////

What's the punishment for xenophobia?

While I'm "sympathetic" to the actions of the EU Parliment, the "thought crimes" example set here makes me shudder...

JAFLW

/Do I jump, or does somebody push me?

re: #6 Shug

What's the punishment for xenophobia?

claustrophobia

You no longer Belang!

re: #8 Right mind left

claustrophobia

agoraphobia

Vlaams Bam Thank ya Ma'am!

This is a good thing, no? I didn't know he had immunity, WTF is EU immunity anyway?

Time to pay the parking tickets, Frank.

Doesn't pass the smell test. If there was indeed ever a formal foreign invasion - it would be illegal to describe it.

I share the mixed feelings. On the one hand, "Nazis... I hate these guys." On the other, "hate speech" or "incitement" laws are a very slippery slope (just ask Mark Steyn).

re: #12 turn

This is a good thing, no? I didn't know he had immunity, WTF is EU immunity anyway?

I'd love to be immune from the EU. Perhaps even repellent.

Meanwhile Google have removed the BNP member list which went up on Blogspot yesterday.

Wish they'd be as vigilant removing illegal race hate and Jihadi materiel from blogspot & youtube.

re: #12 turn

This is a good thing, no? I didn't know he had immunity, WTF is EU immunity anyway?

Learn something new here everyday

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Meanwhile Google have removed the BNP member list which went up on Blogspot yesterday.

Wish they'd be as vigilant removing illegal race hate and Jihadi materiel from blogspot & youtube.

These laws are tough to stomach for Americans but Europe has a history fascism and genocide. There are still far too many Europeans who would love to see the return of a Nazi regime. Although I can't really support the laws banning support for Nazis they may be a necessary evil for the Europeans.

The issue of whether these kinds of European laws are good or justified always comes up. I don't believe in these kinds of laws myself, and would prefer to let people like Vanhecke spew away and thereby reveal themselves. I don't "support" either side of this one.

re: #4 Born Again Republican

I wonder at what point his apologists come to their senses.

This certainly won't do it. It makes him a "martyr".

re: #15 Occasional Reader

I think Occasional Reader's family should be murdered, and let me tell you why......

I obviously don't, but think about that statement for a bit, and get back to me.

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Although I can't really support the laws banning support for Nazis they may be a necessary evil for the Europeans.

I think they're counterproductive. It gives these thugs the added glamour of being "forbidden".

re: #17 uptight

The inmates at MPACUK are busy searching the list for people in their neighborhoods. Somebody is going to get killed over that list.

I'm not so sure about this, what would Orianna say?

re: #10 Salamantis

agoraphobia

Hey, what is the phobia for being strung upside down by your short hairs?

re: #24 Occasional Reader

Yeah, it also gives the Nazis the opportunity to be "free speech" martyrs.

re: #15 Occasional Reader

The way to deal with hate speech is not to criminalize speech, but with more speech. The Europeans simply don't have any history of dealing with the First Amendment, which most Americans take for granted, but which have been eroding for years with the creation of the category of thought crime that includes hate speech.

Yet, this is the state of European law, and under the law, these guys deserve to be indicted for incitement to violence and other similar laws as they are broken.

re: #23 WrathofG-d

I think Occasional Reader's family should be murdered, and let me tell you why......

And you don't truly believe that these laws are limited to that sort of immediate, direct incitement to violence, do you? Don't be naive. Again, the Canadian example is instructive here.

I am foursquare opposed to these "hate speech" laws.
The last thing we or Europeans need is to set up a situation where genuinely racist groups hide their garbage from the public.

re: #29 lawhawk

The way to deal with hate speech is not to criminalize speech, but with more speech.

Specifically, love speech.

(Of course, having jacketed hollowpoints as a backup isn't a bad idea... you know, just in case things get out of hand.)

re: #25 Killgore Trout

The inmates at MPACUK are busy searching the list for people in their neighborhoods. Somebody is going to get killed over that list.

I'm sure the BNP members are aware of this, or at least their natural paranoia may have them on their guard.

BNP yobs vs Islamonazis. I wonder who is better armed.

re: #24 Occasional Reader

I think they're counterproductive. It gives these thugs the added glamour of being "forbidden".

Good point This might be especially attractive to the young.

What's more troubling - fringe pseudo Nazis or a massive multi-state bureaucracy which seems very comfortable at throwing its own members to the wolves? Will they do this to the next guy who isn't a Nazi, but may complain about the number of mosques being built with Saudi money?

re: #27 Right mind left

Hey, what is the phobia for being strung upside down by your short hairs?

Pubeascreamia?

If there's one lesson that the past 1,000 years of history shows us it is that Europeans with ideas are bad things.

re: #35 KingKenrod

What's more troubling - fringe pseudo Nazis or a massive multi-state bureaucracy which seems very comfortable at throwing its own members to the wolves? Will they do this to the next guy who isn't a Nazi, but may complain about the number of mosques being built with Saudi money?

A good reason why "hate speech" laws are a very bad idea.

re: #25 Killgore Trout

Much as I hate the BNP it's probably good that Google removed it. I just wish they'd employ the same fast, scrupulous action against Nazi stuff - which could equally get people killed.

re: #36 debutaunt

Pubeascreamia?

ROFLMAO!

re: #3 Happy4LA

I agree that racism and bigotry should be challenged, but I worry about who defines what is racist and bigoted. I think it can become a scary slippery slope when radicals on either side cry, "Racism!" to shut someone up.

I have to agree.

re: #24 Occasional Reader

I think they're counterproductive. It gives these thugs the added glamour of being "forbidden".

Fight the rise of the cigarette smoking, meat eating, greenhouse gas emitting, right-on-red turning neonazis!

re: #7 just another four-letter word

I don't think you need to worry about thought crimes; the people who went through WW2 in Europe all passed laws against "apology for facism" and the like. My Grandfather's cousin on the Italian side, who was stationed in Greece in WW2 and who saved a lot of Jews from his diplomatic post, wouldn't even put on his old and spiffy official Italian diplomatic hat when I asked him, years afterward. "It is against the law, he said, it would be apology for fascism to put it on."

re: #42 Peacekeeper

meat eating, greenhouse gas emitting

One thing leads to another.

/80's pop music spooling up in head

This notion of EU immunity seems really weird to me. It is supposed to prevent the possibility of pressing a member of the parliament to change his vote by fear of prosecution.

Why would you even need this protection is you're not doing anything that warrants prosecution? This seems more like a law designed to protect the guilty than it does the innocent.

I know we have some pretty stupid laws that protect our congress from being prosecuted, Jefforson's attempt to get the search of his office thrown out comes to mind. I haven't heard much on that, I'll have to go check on it.

re: #30 Occasional Reader

I don't believe that either you nor I are in a position to state what is or what is not "immediate, direct incitement".

I am only simply pointing out that if it were your life that was on the line, the law might seem different.

I mean look how everyone here defends Charles right to make "laws" about ANY sort of calls for violence.

re: #37 Peacekeeper

some ideas.

This guy had ideas.

(Garibaldi)

BBL

re: #29 lawhawk

The way to deal with hate speech is not to criminalize speech, but with more speech. The Europeans simply don't have any history of dealing with the First Amendment, which most Americans take for granted, but which have been eroding for years with the creation of the category of thought crime that includes hate speech.

Yet, this is the state of European law, and under the law, these guys deserve to be indicted for incitement to violence and other similar laws as they are broken.

and their opinions and 'facts' should be loudly and publicly humiliated.
Nothing like some good old fashioned public humiliation.

re: #37 Peacekeeper

If there's one lesson that the past 1,000 years of history shows us it is that Europeans with ideas are bad things.

Paddy Chavefsky on Europeans and their ideas

re: #21 Charles

The issue of whether these kinds of European laws are good or justified always comes up. I don't believe in these kinds of laws myself, and would prefer to let people like Vanhecke spew away and thereby reveal themselves. I don't "support" either side of this one.

Right on. At best from looking at the case perhaps someone who has standing, e.g. those falsely accused by Van Hecke, could charge libel and work through a civil court. In the US this would still likely be laughed out of civil court, as it's mostly political. The court where Van Hecke clearly loses in most judgements is that of public opinion, thus lessening his political efficiency, one of the many reasons he's not leading VB anymore.

re: #38 Spiny Norman

A good reason why "hate speech" laws are a very bad idea.

I agree -- BUT -- in this case, Vanhecke spouted off about "foreign cultures" desecrating Belgian cemeteries when it turned out to be juvenile delinquents. It was irresponsible at best.

re: #21 Charles

The issue of whether these kinds of European laws are good or justified always comes up. I don't believe in these kinds of laws myself, and would prefer to let people like Vanhecke spew away and thereby reveal themselves. I don't "support" either side of this one.

I also don't like the "hate" and "xeno..." laws. But I do like incitement to violence laws and I like prosecuting people who break existing laws in trying to intimidate others (e.g., vagrancy, loitering, etc. when blocking someone's progress walking down the sidewalk as a means of intimidation). Here's my issue with this particular story

Robin Sclafani, the director of the Brussels-based organization Jewish Contribution to an Inclusive Europe

I would prefer that, since the Jews have already been run out of Europe and there are so few left there, that it be a non-Jewish organization or individuals who would be behind the objection to VB and their ilk. Very sad for Europe.

VB has a history of Holocaust Denial and ties to fascists, such as LePen. They are an Ethnic nationalist party, which I think is almost as inherently dangerous a political construct as is Communism.

But, for the life of me, I can't figure out what Vanhecke did wrong here.

re: #49 jemima

Paddy Chavefsky on Europeans and their ideas [Link: www.youtube.com...]

The best things to come out of Europe are the people who discovered America!

re: #51 Charles

I agree -- BUT -- in this case, Vanhecke spouted off about "foreign cultures" desecrating Belgian cemeteries when it turned out to be juvenile delinquents. It was irresponsible at best.

True. That falls under journalism 101. Always check your facts from multiple sources and never go to print until you do.

re: #46 WrathofG-d

I am only simply pointing out that if it were your life that was on the line, the law might seem different.

And if I were under threat of being run over by a Chevrolet, that might prompt my full-throated support for banning Chevrolets. But that, too, would be a lousy benchmark for deciding whether such a law is actually a good idea.

I mean look how everyone here defends Charles right to make "laws" about ANY sort of calls for violence.

First of all, that's not a "law", it's a rule for a private club, so to speak. Which is different.

Second, "xenophobia" laws would be cheerfully used by their chief supporters to shut down LGF itself, if they could. We criticize Islam! That promotes "xenophobia", doncha know.

re: #29 lawhawk

The way to deal with hate speech is not to criminalize speech, but with more speech. The Europeans simply don't have any history of dealing with the First Amendment, which most Americans take for granted, but which have been eroding for years with the creation of the category of thought crime that includes hate speech.

Yet, this is the state of European law, and under the law, these guys deserve to be indicted for incitement to violence and other similar laws as they are broken.

Thank you for a clear enough explanation (that is, one I can understand) of why these laws are tolerated in Europe.

OT:

more bias regarding Jewish residents of the Palestinian Territories.

Hardline settlers believe that Jews, as God's "chosen people" have a divine right to the entire biblical land of Israel, including the Palestinian territories.

(ed- Says who? Keep reading & you will notice that that is NOT the basis of their claim)

Their actual dispute about this proerty is as follows. It has nothing to do about any Biblical claim.

Settlers claim they bought the four-storey building from a Palestinian, who denies the deal had been completed....

re: #53 Pastorius

VB and the like are in effect yelling "Fire!" in the crowded theater of Europe.

re: #54 Nevergiveup

The best things to come out of Europe are the people who discovered America!

The smart ones got out when the getting was good. They hate us for it.

re: #51 Charles

I agree -- BUT -- in this case, Vanhecke spouted off about "foreign cultures" desecrating Belgian cemeteries when it turned out to be juvenile delinquents. It was irresponsible at best.

he was irresponsible to say it. the press was irresponsible to take up the banner.

But was it an incitement to violence. Was it a torches and pitchfork moment?

re: #51 Charles

I agree -- BUT -- in this case, Vanhecke spouted off about "foreign cultures" desecrating Belgian cemeteries when it turned out to be juvenile delinquents. It was irresponsible at best.

Irresponsible? Sure. Should it be illegal, though.

And by "foreign cultures," Vanhecke was obviously referring to Muslims. Who also have some legal fronts capitalizing on European hate crime laws, and can fight back.

re: #49 jemima

You are a complete rascal...

re: #56 Occasional Reader

The rule at LGF is only different on a technicality. That it isn't a Governmental censor.

As for the laws, I don't necessarily support them. On one hand I believe that morons should be able to say whatever horrible things they want, yet on the other, I acknowledge that words can get people killed (and the people killed are usually my people)

Democratic officials: Daschle accepts post as Health and Human Services secretary

The appointment has not been announced, but these officials said the job is Daschle's barring an unforeseen problem as Obama's team reviews the background of the South Dakota Democrat. One area of review will include the lobbying connections of his wife, Linda Hall Daschle, who has done representation mostly on behalf of airline-related companies over the years. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorize to discuss the matter publicly.

/and the hits golden oldies just keep on coming

re: #65 WrathofG-d

The rule at LGF is only different on a technicality. That it isn't a Governmental censor.

I don't put people in jail. That's a little more than a technicality.

re: #66 Killian Bundy

Democratic officials: Daschle accepts post as Health and Human Services secretary

/and the hits golden oldies just keep on coming

CHANGE?

re: #62 Occasional Reader

Irresponsible? Sure. Should it be illegal, though.

They, at the very least, should be assigned to clean and repair what they did, then write a letter of apology...but that is just how I think juveniles should be taught...

re: #56 Occasional Reader

And if I were under threat of being run over by a Chevrolet, that might prompt my full-throated support for banning Chevrolets.

In America we call them Chevys amigo.

re: #68 Nevergiveup

Palin would have been a good choice for H&HS. IMHO

#59 Ojoe,

Wouldn't it be easy enough for people to say the same thing about journalists who write about the Jihad. For instance, if you say that Jihad is a natural part of the religion of Islam, and Muslims therefore ought to be monitored in a way that is different from the members of other groups, because many of them might take up the cause of Jihad,

is that yelling fire in a crowded theater?

Decent Muslims might say so, right? After all, they would never take up the cause of Jihad themselves, and yet people are being encouraged to be suspicious of all Muslims, and that includes them.

re: #64 Peacekeeper

You are a complete rascal...

Hate speech!

Ops. :o)

re: #55 Dave_Da_Kid

True. That falls under journalism 101. Always check your facts from multiple sources and never go to print until you do.

That would be "reporting 101" Journalism 101 defines what it means to be a journalist with the ability to mould the world.

re: #70 Peacekeeper

In America we call them Chevys amigo.

And I suppose you park them in the carhole.

-Moe Syzlak

re: #67 Charles

I don't put people in jail. That's a little more than a technicality.

there are no cells under the denver airport.
no dungeons

re: #69 Right mind left

They, at the very least, should be assigned to clean and repair what they did, then write a letter of apology...but that is just how I think juveniles should be taught...

We're talking about VB blaming foreigners, not about the vandals who actually did it.

re: #75 Eowyn2

That would be "reporting 101" Journalism 101 defines what it means to be a journalist with the ability to mould the world.

I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that out.

re: #67 Charles

I don't put people in jail. That's a little more than a technicality.

No, you ban them and thus condemn them to a living hell of bitterness and anger. Monster.

re: #77 Eowyn2

there are no cells under the denver airport.
no dungeons

Those aren't "dungeons", they're... reeducation cubicles. Yeah, that's it.

re: #62 Occasional Reader

Irresponsible? Sure. Should it be illegal, though.

Theoretically, no. Practically, no. Sanely, no. But remember, this is Belgium.

re: #67 Charles

It is not my intention to debate whether you have the right, and am concerned that any further discussion with you on this topic would be misunderstood and result in my banning. This is not my intention.

Yes you do not put people in Jail. This of course is a huge difference. My statement was directed towards Censorship laws, and I was only pointing out that those that criticize censorship laws in the larger society with all these claims of "let's people see how crazy they are", blah, blah, blah, quickly defend them in the small society of LGF.

I could come up with a hundred differences between LGF and the larger society on this issue, but I find them to be distractions from my core point.

By the way, I should add that as it has always been, I believe you have this right. Advocating violence, leads to violence.

re: #82 Charles

Theoretically, no. Practically, no. Sanely, no. But remember, this is Belgium.

We have the Statue of Liberty, they have a statue of a little boy taking a whiz. I see what you mean.

re: #81 Occasional Reader

Those aren't "dungeons", they're... reeducation cubicles. Yeah, that's it.

No that's the baggage handling robots. They can loose as much luggage as 50 men working the old way. And in half the time.

re: #56 Occasional Reader

And if I were under threat of being run over by a Chevrolet, that might prompt my full-throated support for banning Chevrolets. .

wouldnt jumping of the levy be easier

re: #82 Charles

But remember, this is Belgium.

Then they should be stripped of their beer and chocolate privileges.

re: #86 Eowyn2

wouldnt jumping of the levy be easier

The levy was dry.

re: #82 Charles

Theoretically, no. Practically, no. Sanely, no. But remember, this is Belgium.

They have to be decisive: nobody likes a Belgian waffle.

Judge orders Ramsey County to release absentee ballot data

Ramsey County officials must release all written information it has on absentee ballots that were rejected or not counted, a judge ruled this afternoon.

Ramsey County District Judge Dale Lindman granted a temporary injunction to the campaign of Democratic Senate candidate Al Franken, ruling that the information Franken is seeking is "public data" under the state Data Practices Act and that it should be turned over to the campaign by the end of the day.

/gee, and just who would be more likely to not be able to complete a valid absentee ballot, Coleman or Franken voters?

re: #80 Peacekeeper

No, you ban them and thus condemn them to a living hell of bitterness and anger. Monster.

The lizards are greener here.

OT:

The Media WAR On The Jewish Residents of The Palestinian Territories.

My God! I must condemn the EU for any action of censorship.

Not many weeks ago I had to object in writing to a Methodist Bishop's article calling the DVD "Obsession" hate speech on the UMC website. (The DVD was distributed nationwide free in the Sunday newspaper and the Tampa Tribune, chose to include it deciding censorship of "advertising" is not their job. They did write an article about how pressured they were not to include it in distribution of the paper.)

I do not want the Bishop's opinion to become how this country behaves toward anyone's warning about Islamic terrorism. And I am sick of people like him that define other points of view as hate speech and if we are to be protected from anyone it is those with his mindset.

re: #88 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The levy was dry.

whiskey or rye?

re: #72 Pastorius

Islam is a big problem isn't it?

If you hold up a Koran and say it is sacred and should be followed as a pattern of life, then aren't you really, no kidding, inciting to violence?

OTOH, if you hold up a Koran & say that it has some [parts that must be seen in a new light, then you are in danger of being killed by fanatics.

This is a mess.

I could see a legal argument for only allowing "improved" Korans into civilized countries.

re: #66 Killian Bundy

They spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorize to discuss the matter publicly.

That kind of crap just really pisses me off. Don't use my name because I'm not supposed to talk about it, but here's the shit...

On this matter it's not that big a deal, but they do the same damn thing on matters of national security.

As far as Daschle goes, I don't know how much damage he can do at HHS. Probably more than I'd like, but, other than being a Party hack what has he done that makes Obama think he is up to the job? So far Obama hasn't impressed me with with the people he's tapped for his Administration. They'll probably sail through the Senate no matter what shows up in oversight hearings. He could appoint Goofy as Sec Def and the new Senate would confirm him.

re: #86 Eowyn2

wouldnt jumping of the levy be easier

You're prompting assaulting Jewish-surnamed people? Hate speech!

re: #78 Occasional Reader

We're talking about VB blaming foreigners, not about the vandals who actually did it.

Sorry...I was trying to target the kids who did what they did. I think with VB it should be made perfectly clear where the blame should be...

Doesn't it seem like the reactions create these alternate realities when you try to pin down the truth? I'm new to the nuances with VB, and I'm doing my best to speed read...

re: #94 Eowyn2

whiskey or rye?

Neither. Good ole boys drank it all.

prompting = promoting

re: #70 Peacekeeper

And if I were under threat of being run over by a Chevrolet, that might prompt my full-throated support for banning Chevrolets.

In America we call them Chevys amigo.

That's not what I call them.

Constantly
Having
Every
Vehicle
Recalled
Over
Lousy
Engineering
Techniques

re: #92 WrathofG-d

Wrath - pls look at 52 and tell me what you think...

BBL

#95 Ojoe,

Interesting thought.

re: #87 Occasional Reader

Then they should be stripped of their beer and chocolate privileges.

Or maybe just allowed the bitters?

I don't agree with anything this guy says, but he ought to have the right to say it.

Freedom of speech exists solely to protect unpopular (you can read that as "politically incorrect" if you like) speech.

There are other rules that can apply against slander, defamation, or incitement to violence.

re: #99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Neither. Good ole boys drank it all.

Never meanin' no harm.
/different gold ole boys, I know.

re: #92 WrathofG-d

OT:

The Media WAR On The Jewish Residents of The Palestinian Territories.

I have a tough time with a journalist who prints this sentence when referring to Jewish people The 250,000-strong settler community is not monolithic and not all take the bible literally. But those who do believe they are following God's word, and have His blessing for recovering the holy land of Israel for its chosen people.

No more Bible for you Wrath.

re: #87 Occasional Reader

Then they should be stripped of their beer and chocolate privileges.

MMMMM, beer and chocolate. Tastes great together.

re: #101 CyanSnowHawk

That's not what I call them.

Constantly
Having
Every
Vehicle
Recalled
Over
Lousy
Engineering
Techniques

Heh. Just don't replace it with a Feeble Italian Attempt at Technology.

re: #107 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Never meanin' no harm.
/different gold ole boys, I know.

No problem, they're just making their way the only way they know how.

Belgium is such a beautiful country.

Bruges, the Ardennes Region, great roads, fine beer , chocolate and etc...

Politically they are schismatic between the Flemish and the Walloons. That deadlock may open up space for other political groups to operate.

re: #109 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

MMMMM, beer and chocolate. Tastes great together.

You got any of that beer with candy floating in it? Y'know, Skittlebrau?

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Heh. Just don't replace it with a Feeble Italian Attempt at Technology.

Fix
It
Again
Tony!

re: #101 CyanSnowHawk
chov it or leave it.

re: #97 Occasional Reader

You're prompting assaulting Jewish-surnamed people? Hate speech!

if my grandson comes back from Germany and calls me grossen muter, I'm going to imprison him.

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Heh. Just don't replace it with a Feeble Italian Attempt at Technology.

What about the Citroen? The damn thing's named after a lemon!

re: #114 CyanSnowHawk

Fix
It
Again
Tony!

Nor a Ford.

Fix Or Repair Daily

Found On Road Dead

re: #112 experiencedtraveller

Belgium is such a beautiful country.

Bruges, the Ardennes Region, great roads, fine beer , chocolate and etc...

They also make excellent guns.

re: #94 Eowyn2

whiskey or rye?

Don McLean: American Pie

That old dry levy

re: #113 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

You got any of that beer with candy floating in it? Y'know, Skittlebrau?

Nope, but a Hershey's Big Block and a 6 pack Millers works fine.

re: #117 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

What about the Citroen? The damn thing's named after a lemon!

I am shocked... shocked!

-Capt. Renault

In spring 2005, a local edition of a Vlaams Belang newsletter, for which Vanhecke was the responsible publisher, printed an article accusing “foreign cultures” of the desecration of a cemetery. The newsletter said such acts are the result of “a culture which no longer has any respect for the dead and for the symbols of a different faith.” The culprits turned out to be local minors. ...

So he was wrong and has lost credibility. Now everyone can see him for a racist/xenophobe as well.

I don't see why this guy should be subject to criminal prosecution for this, though.

Analogously, after the Oklahoma city bombing, for example, there were a lot of people who thought that the attack was committed by radical Islamists. They were wrong, but I don't think any of them should go to jail over that mistake.

re: #52 Sunlight

I agree on both points. It shouldn't just be Jewish groups. Personally, I'm not sure that it is solely Jewish groups. This could just be a function of reporting. I often find that when there is any disagreement to Anti-Semitism, &/or Anti-Zionism, it is always reported as "Jewish groups" that condemn it. They mold the message of those Jews against the Jew haters. Thus it is only a Jewish issue.

I am also against Censorship laws, but you make great points about when speech becomes more than just speech. Actions have been protected as "speech" as you correctly point out in your example. On LGF we like to believe that speech ends with words. But words have power, they are the 1st steps toward action. The Holocaust was started with words, as was all Evil (and Good) in this world. Hitler didn't come out the first day and start smacking Jews around himself...he 1st plowed the field, and watered it with words/speech about how disgusting the Jews were and falsely claiming that they were destroying the country. These WORDS/speech caused others to do the violence, and join the National Socialist Party.

I only wish for people here to accept that words have power.

re: #94 Eowyn2

whiskey or rye?

Now it's about pie? We just came from a cake thread, didn't we? Well, at least this one has something to drink, too!

re: #118 clear vision

Or Dodge.

Dear
Old
dad
Got
Even

Later.

re: #120 Nevergiveup

Don McLean: American Pie

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

That old dry levy

Quit blaming the Jews! It was a LEVEE!

re: #118 clear vision

Nor a Ford.

Fix Or Repair Daily

Found On Road Dead

The Jeep guys like to say

Flipped Over, Read Directions.

I just found a great list of Car Acronyms.

re: #117 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

What about the Citroen? The damn thing's named after a lemon!

Crap Interior Terrible Road-holding Owned Entirely by Nutters

Lost tool bag forces changes to planned spacewalks

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

There is a reason there are no female shortstops in the Major Leagues.
/ducking for cover

re: #128 clear vision

Quit blaming the Jews! It was a LEVEE!

I knew a levy who didn't drink?

Another century and the Europeans are still saying "no thanks" to "liberty".

The EU is really scarier than the U.N.

re: #108 Eowyn2

There is an all out media war against the Jewish residents of the Disputed Territories of Judea and Samaria, and it is being fought against these Jews in terms that directly attack the Jewish religion itself. The media is not using law to state why the Jews should not have a right to live in peace with their Arab neighbors but instead directly attacking the core tenants of Judaism.

Ie: Jews were chosen by G-d, the Torah is True, G-d promised the land to the Jewish people, and as I pointed out yesterday that Moses' was given the 10 Commandment from G-d (they used a term like "Moses' stone tablets").

If they are going to do this then the least I could ask for (and never get) is that they use the same type of skepticism towards Islam's claims to Jerusalem, Medina, Mecca, the Koran, and the Haj. Those however they take for granted, accept as Truth, and label "Holy" in their reports.

Charles did you see that the BNP was outed by *someone* as well?

Mitt to Detroit: Drop Dead!

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

ALERT ALERT ALERT--Link to NYT--Sorry

re: #124 WrathofG-d

I agree on both points. It shouldn't just be Jewish groups. Personally, I'm not sure that it is solely Jewish groups. This could just be a function of reporting. I often find that when there is any disagreement to Anti-Semitism, &/or Anti-Zionism, it is always reported as "Jewish groups" that condemn it. They mold the message of those Jews against the Jew haters. Thus it is only a Jewish issue.

I am also against Censorship laws, but you make great points about when speech becomes more than just speech. Actions have been protected as "speech" as you correctly point out in your example. On LGF we like to believe that speech ends with words. But words have power, they are the 1st steps toward action. The Holocaust was started with words, as was all Evil (and Good) in this world. Hitler didn't come out the first day and start smacking Jews around himself...he 1st plowed the field, and watered it with words/speech about how disgusting the Jews were and falsely claiming that they were destroying the country. These WORDS/speech caused others to do the violence, and join the National Socialist Party.

I only wish for people here to accept that words have power.

Of course, words have great power. The silencing should come only from clearly explaining the idiocy of the opinion and most people can make their judgments from that. If you crush the freedom of speaking your mind, it is crippling.

The key to maintaining the freedom is that there is clear consequence for the action that might ensue. When those rights are protected it makes a safe haven, essential for freedom to prosper.

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

The Jeep guys like to say

Flipped Over, Read Directions.

I just found a great list of Car Acronyms.

Better be careful, there are a few racial slurs there.
Sorry, didn't notice it before I linked.

I think making incitement to bigotry a crime is a step too far, especially given the endless controversies that attend discussions of what exactly is bigoted. I don't see anyone in Europe being tried for Anti-American bigotry any time soon, for example, even though there's no shortage of that around.

Having said that, if anyone is to be convicted of this crime, Frank Vanhecke would seem to be an excellent choice.

re: #137 Right mind left

I do not support Censorship laws. But the widely held belief that people will make the right decision after hearing both sides is not proven by history.

re: #124 WrathofG-d

It is the very fact that words do have power that makes "hate speech" laws so dangerous.
Power-seekers, especially in the era of mass media, always try to control words by manipulation or by denying opponents a voice.

re: #141 wolfie

It is the very fact that words do have power that makes "hate speech" laws so dangerous.
Power-seekers, especially in the era of mass media, always try to control words by manipulation or by denying opponents a voice.

Or by changing the definitions of words, ie, gay *marriage*.

re: #140 WrathofG-d

I do not support Censorship laws. But the widely held belief that people will make the right decision after hearing both sides is not proven by history.

Are they more likely to make the "right" decision after hearing only ONE side?

re: #141 wolfie

SEE 140

re: #143 looking closely

To play Devil's advocate: When it comes to denying the Holocaust? Yes probably! Somethings just aren't debatable are they?

re: #140 WrathofG-d

I do not support Censorship laws. But the widely held belief that people will make the right decision after hearing both sides is not proven by history.

The problem is in the prosecution of the ensuing actions. When it becomes more than words and becomes hurtful in a material way, just like sexual harassment... there are clear lines that can be drawn where it becomes something that could be inferred as "actions will follow".

The nuances to this are clearly a challenge, but the converse is much worse, I think.

re: #99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Neither. Good ole boys drank it all.

Jack o' Diamonds, Jack o' Diamonds and I know you of old
You've robbed my poor pockets of silver and gold
It's a whiskey, you villain, you've been my downfall
You've kicked me, you've cuffed me, but I love you for all

It's a whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If I don't get rye whiskey, well, I think I will die

I'll eat when I'm hungry, I'll drink when I'm dry
If the hard times don't kill me, I'll lay down and die
I'll tune up my fiddle and I 'll rosin my bow
I'll make myself welcome, wherever I go

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die

Beefsteak when I'm hungry red liquor when I'm dry
Greenbacks when I'm hard up and religion when I die
They say I drink whiskey, my money's my own
All them that don't like me, can leave me alone

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die

Sometimes I drink whiskey, sometimes I drink rum
Sometimes I drink brandy, at other times none
But if I get boozey, my whiskey's my own
And them that don't like me, can leave me alone

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck
I'd dive to the bottom to get one sweet suck
But the ocean ain't whiskey and I ain't a duck
So we'll round up the cattle and then we'll get drunk

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If the whiskey don't kill me, I'll live till I die

My foot's in my stirrup, my bridle's in my hand
I'm leaving sweet Lillie, the fairest in the land
Her parents don't like me, they say I'm too poor
They say I'm unworthy to enter her door

It's a whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If I don't get rye whiskey, well, I think I will die

Sweet milk when I'm hungry, rye whiskey when I'm dry
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die
I'll buy my own whiskey, I'll make my own stew
If I get drunk, madam, it's nothing to you

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die

I'll drink my own whiskey, I'll drink my own wine
Some ten thousand bottles I've killed in my time
I've no wife to quarrel, no babies to bawl
The best way of living is no wife at all

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die

Way up on Clinch Mountain I wander alone
I'm as drunk as the devil, oh, let me alone
You may boast of your knowledge an' brag of your sense
'Twill all be forgotten a hundred years hence

Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, you're no friend to me
You killed my poor daddy, God damn you, try me

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Heh. Just don't replace it with a Feeble Italian Attempt at Technology.

Hadn't heard that one before.

re: #140 WrathofG-d

I do not support Censorship laws. But the widely held belief that people will make the right decision after hearing both sides is not proven by history.

You are right.
But the track record of regimes that silence those who are "politically incorrect" is far, far worse than of those who at least allow the possibility of discussion.

re: #146 Right mind left

Fine, but when stopping the "action" is after someone has murdered your family....you might have a different opinion.

no?

I once saw an obscenely large Black Widow (spider) snatch up a cockroach to eat.

This story gives me the same feeling as that scene.

Daschle to be Health and Human Services secretary Link

re: #145 WrathofG-d

To play Devil's advocate: When it comes to denying the Holocaust? Yes probably! Somethings just aren't debatable are they?

Well, the choice becomes dealing with those who are blatantly in an alternate universe that is clearly despicable...shunning isn't illegal. GAZE is used properly!

re: #120 Nevergiveup

Don McLean: American Pie

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

That old dry levy

I appreciate that you didnt link to the madonna version.

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Heh. Just don't replace it with a Feeble Italian Attempt at Technology.

Have you heard about the new "Green" Italian made sports car?

The Runzonni Downhill

re: #152 Wishing

Daschle to be Health and Human Services secretary Link

Oh, Lord, I can't stand the sound of his voice.

What would have been the result if Vanhecke had made similar remarks, but only after the identity of the perpetrators had been confirmed - and they indeed turned out to be North African Muslims?

re: #138 CyanSnowHawk

Better be careful, there are a few racial slurs there.
Sorry, didn't notice it before I linked.

A few, but there are some good ones in there like this:

How
Odd-
No
Damn
Acceleration,

and

Awful,
Crappy,
Unreliable,
Rusty
Automobile

The truth is that I am now defending a very small portion of a discussion that I really don't disagree on.

I do not support Censorship laws.

I am not naive enough however to believe that "more speech" is always good, or that people will be able to make the right decision after getting both sides. History doesn't show that to be true either. In addition, I accept that words are power and meaning, and when there is a extreme amount of wrong information, horrible things happen.

on that note, though, I must go to a meeting. See you all when I get back probably.

re: #151 Slumbering Behemoth

I once saw an obscenely large Black Widow (spider) snatch up a cockroach to eat.

This story gives me the same feeling as that scene.

Michelle

Nah, They’re Not Anti-Semitic

Don't they know that a Lizard is a compliment?

re: #154 Eowyn2

I appreciate that you didnt link to the madonna version.

If there weren't already a whole host of reasons to hate her, the scag's relationship with then married A-Rod did my Yankees no good!

re: #162 Ben Hur

As far as I'm concerned chavir....Allah Achbar

re: #94 Eowyn2

whiskey or rye?

Both!

The good old boys demand both, while saying, "This'll be the day that I die."

re: #136 Nevergiveup

Mitt to Detroit: Drop Dead!

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

ALERT ALERT ALERT--Link to NYT--Sorry

Mitt makes some great points. What President is going let the pain happen on their watch though? A bail out today or early in the Obama Administration will likely carry the auto companies past the next election cycle.

re: #145 WrathofG-d

To play Devil's advocate: When it comes to denying the Holocaust? Yes probably! Somethings just aren't debatable are they?

The fact of the matter is that LAW can only go so far. Society, not the State, is the ultimate guardian of manners, honesty, and decency.

When you have an elite that does not value, or even recognize the existence of objective truth......when you have masses that are only interested in bread and circuses....when wisdom, temperance, and sanity break down....well,.....you have a problem that no law can remedy.

re: #166 CyanSnowHawk

Mitt makes some great points. What President is going let the pain happen on their watch though? A bail out today or early in the Obama Administration will likely carry the auto companies past the next election cycle.

I have a question: Are the auto companies in trouble because of SALES...or because they invested in fannie mae-ish paper?

re: #152 Wishing

Daschle to be Health and Human Services secretary Link

His own constituents voted him out of office, so let's shove him down the rest of America's throat.

Outrageous! Outrageous!

-Tom Daschle.

re: #136 Nevergiveup

Mitt to Detroit: Drop Dead!

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
y

Detroit to Mitt: Way ahead of you.

re: #134 WrathofG-d

There is an all out media war against the Jewish residents of the Disputed Territories of Judea and Samaria, and it is being fought against these Jews in terms that directly attack the Jewish religion itself. The media is not using law to state why the Jews should not have a right to live in peace with their Arab neighbors but instead directly attacking the core tenants of Judaism.

Ie: Jews were chosen by G-d, the Torah is True, G-d promised the land to the Jewish people, and as I pointed out yesterday that Moses' was given the 10 Commandment from G-d (they used a term like "Moses' stone tablets").

If they are going to do this then the least I could ask for (and never get) is that they use the same type of skepticism towards Islam's claims to Jerusalem, Medina, Mecca, the Koran, and the Haj. Those however they take for granted, accept as Truth, and label "Holy" in their reports.

I do understand. It makes me ill. And it just pisses me off that these so called reporters either dont know the difference between the Holy book of Christians (Bible) and the Holy book of Jews (Torah) or they dont care but they know without any doubt that the Koran is the holy book of Muslims and, well, how dare anyone set it on the floor.

re: #168 Wishing

I have a question: Are the auto companies in trouble because of SALES...or because they invested in fannie mae-ish paper?

Sales and Labor costs.

re: #21 Charles

I agree, Charles. I believe that it helps if these people are free to spew their nonsense so every one can see who the real racists are.

Plus I agree with the posters that who defines what's racist and what isn't can be a problem. Look at the UK, if you criticize Islam you're a racist, yet radical Islam is free to preach the most vile racist hatred there is. Heck, in some places to quote what Islamists say can be considered racist! Multiculturalism is a mental disease, I swear.

unfortunate this guy breathes
unfortunate there are such laws as well
a pox on both their....uh not windmills.....chocolatiers?

re: #168 Wishing

I have a question: Are the auto companies in trouble because of SALES...or because they invested in fannie mae-ish paper?

More toward sales as well as benefits and cash flow. Unlike some of their competition, their dealers have it extremely good.

re: #169 Ben Hur

His own constituents voted him out of office, so let's shove him down the rest of America's throat.

Outrageous! Outrageous!

-Tom Daschle.

It just gets worse and worse: we are SO screwed!

re: #156 redstateredneck

Oh, Lord, I can't stand the sound of his voice.

But at least Rush will have plenty of "Puff" Daschle jokes for the next 4 years.

re: #162 Ben Hur

I didn't know Lizards had hooves on their hind legs.

This is insane.

It points to what is wrong in European politics.

Political culture in the EU has done so much to delegitimize the right that no one who is a post-racial conservative has a chance. There is no place to speak because you are assumed to be a racist reactionary. The only people left on the right, therefore, are racist reactionaries, which simply serves to perpetuate deligitimization. The average guy who starts seeing his tax money get pissed away ends up casting his lot with bigots and racists because they don't suffer shame for being labeled as such.

The anti-speech laws in the EU simply reinforce the cycle.

This is why the "post - racial" era that Obama's leftist social engineers are selling depends on calling critics racists - so that they can place the same system of delegitimization into practice here.

The solution is to let the whackos be whackos so that the more moderate voices can be allowed to become distinct. That means free political speech.

re: #172 Nevergiveup

Sales and Labor costs.

Aren't labor costs, particularly retirement pay-outs, paid by investment profits?

re: #172 Nevergiveup

Sales and Labor costs.

How many people are they paying not to work?

Al Qaeda reaches out to Obama.......

Al Qaeda: Don't Be Fooled By Obama

Zawahri began his remarks by congratulating Muslims on the election of Obama, describing it as, "the American people’s admission of defeat in Iraq,” noting that the American people had voted for the candidate who wanted to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq.

[snip]

Bin Laden's deputy labels Obama another president who has chosen a stance of hostility against Islam and Muslims. He said Obama had "abandoned his Muslim faith," and set up a direct comparison between the president-elect and Malcom X, “who prided himself on his fraternity with the Muslims… You represent the direct opposite of honorable black Americans like Malik al-Shabazz, or Malcolm X, may Allah have mercy on him.”

[snip]

re: #168 Wishing

They are in trouble because of sales and cost. The trouble is compounded because the banks aren't giving out loans that the auto companies rely on because their business model is flawed.

re: #177 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

How about Eric Holder as Atty Gen. Can you say Mark Rich.

So much for change. LOL

re: #178 Bubblehead II

I didn't know Lizards had hooves on their hind legs.

They do.

re: #177 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

But at least Rush will have plenty of "Puff" Daschle jokes for the next 4 years.

Anyway, it's a pretty inconsequential assignment. After he is confirmed, we will never hear from him again. Who is the head of HHS now?

re: #177 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

But at least Rush will have plenty of "Puff" Daschle jokes for the next 4 years.

LOL.

Puff the Magic Daschle lives by S.D.
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called D.C.,

re: #168 Wishing

I have a question: Are the auto companies in trouble because of SALES...or because they invested in fannie mae-ish paper?

Their primary trouble is sales are too slow to support their business model. There are many reasons for this, not the least of which is prices that are too high as a result of the UAW contracts that were acceptable when money was coming in by the truckload, but are now unsustainable.

re: #178 Bubblehead II

I didn't know Lizards had hooves on their hind legs.

Only those who do Stan's bidding.

re: #183 Killgore Trout

They are in trouble because of sales and cost. The trouble is compounded because the banks aren't giving out loans that the auto companies rely on because their business model is flawed.

IMO only, any business who maintains its existence on weekly or monthly loans should be closed and told to come up with a reasonable plan, anyway!

re: #182 jcm

But, but I thought they LOVED him? (-:

re: #180 Wishing

Aren't labor costs, particularly retirement pay-outs, paid by investment profits?

All I know is that i hear it costs Honda and Toyota about 40$ and hour to make a car and GM about 80$ an hour?

re: #186 Nevergiveup

Anyway, it's a pretty inconsequential assignment. After he is confirmed, we will never hear from him again. Who is the head of HHS now?

Yeah, but how big will HHS be if they nationalize healthcare?

re: #53 Pastorius

VB has a history of Holocaust Denial and ties to fascists, such as LePen. They are an Ethnic nationalist party, which I think is almost as inherently dangerous a political construct as is Communism.

But, for the life of me, I can't figure out what Vanhecke did wrong here.

He falsely accused immigrants of the vandalism, and said defamatory things about their culture when it turned out the desecration was by Flemish Youths.

Are we on the new server now?

re: #181 redstateredneck

How many people are they paying not to work?

Last I could find was 05, 12k.

re: #187 Honorary Yooper

LOL.

Puff the Magic Daschle lives by S.D.
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called D.C.,

I used to love that song until I found out what it was really about - a boy & his dragon. I always thought it was about smoking pot!

re: #180 Wishing

Aren't labor costs, particularly retirement pay-outs, paid by investment profits?

I believe that is the theory, if not the practice.

re: #193 redstateredneck

Yeah, but how big will HHS be if they nationalize healthcare?

Well if Obama trys that he trys that. Whether Dashele is there has nothing to do with it.

re: #179 karmic_inquisitor

Well said.
It may or not be a "solution," but its the only possibility that makes a solution possible.

re: #193 redstateredneck

How soon before Obama has to bail out gov healthcare?

re: #195 Moe Katz

Are we on the new server now?

No, we're still in a holding pattern on that.

re: #192 Nevergiveup

All I know is that i hear it costs Honda and Toyota about 40$ and hour to make a car and GM about 80$ an hour?

My point is this: this fannie mae disaster, based on insolvent mortgages, may be hitting the auto industry in the purse as well: dont they invest their earnings in this nonsense paper as well?

re: #192 Nevergiveup

All I know is that i hear it costs Honda and Toyota about 40$ and hour to make a car and GM about 80$ an hour?

$44 for Toyota and $55 for GM on the new two-tier wage scale. A big problem is the dealers, more than the automakers. There are too many dealers, and culling them is tough to do with state franchise laws. For example, GM has almost four times as many dealers as Toyota in the US.

Of course, neither company is doing all that well, as both are bleeding red right now. You realise that Toyota loses about $4,000 to $6,000 on each Prius. One can't keep up that forever.

re: #201 Dustoff-507

How soon before Obama has to bail out gov healthcare?

U.S. Government to ask U.S. Government for bailout. Details at 11.

re: #196 jcm

A bit like the Oregon Public Employee Retirement System.
Wonder why the 13K per kid doesn't see a classroom, there one of the reasons.

re: #191 Dustoff-507

But, but I thought they LOVED him? (-:

That is love, they go to pieces when they don't like someone.

re: #202 Charles

Sorry Charles the (pattern is full)
Top Gun. (-:

re: #194 Thanos

re: #53 Pastorius

" VB has a history of Holocaust Denial and ties to fascists, such as LePen. They are an Ethnic nationalist party, which I think is almost as inherently dangerous a political construct as is Communism.

But, for the life of me, I can't figure out what Vanhecke did wrong here."

"He falsely accused immigrants of the vandalism, and said defamatory things about their culture when it turned out the desecration was by Flemish Youths."

Perhaps it is typically the case that such immigrants are the perps? Then his sin is simply that of premature concludulation?

re: #201 Dustoff-507

How soon before Obama has to bail out gov healthcare?

Hillary? Senator Healthcare?

re: #201 Dustoff-507

How soon before Obama has to bail out gov healthcare?

The cupboard's gonna be bare by then!

re: #181 redstateredneck

How many people are they paying not to work?

They tried to get rid of those rules a couple of years ago. It's the UAW that makes them have the job bank.

re: #203 Wishing

My point is this: this fannie mae disaster, based on insolvent mortgages, may be hitting the auto industry in the purse as well: dont they invest their earnings in this nonsense paper as well?

? don't know. But if people can't pay their mortgages, they can't buy cars either. And I bet alot of people were buying cars with home equity loans? I hear car sales are down like 40%?

re: #207 jcm

Yikes

re: #203 Wishing

My point is this: this fannie mae disaster, based on insolvent mortgages, may be hitting the auto industry in the purse as well: dont they invest their earnings in this nonsense paper as well?

I don't think they are heavily invested in that. Their problem is that many people were buying new cars with their equity, and when that went away, those people quit buying new cars.

re: #213 Nevergiveup

? don't know. But if people can't pay their mortgages, they can't buy cars either. And I bet alot of people were buying cars with home equity loans? I hear car sales are down like 40%?

Buy an RV - kill two bird with one stone.
/

re: #213 Nevergiveup

? don't know. But if people can't pay their mortgages, they can't buy cars either. And I bet alot of people were buying cars with home equity loans? I hear car sales are down like 40%?

Yep. Car sales are down across the board. No-one is immune right now.

re: #213 Nevergiveup

? don't know. But if people can't pay their mortgages, they can't buy cars either. And I bet alot of people were buying cars with home equity loans? I hear car sales are down like 40%?

They are calling a Special Session of Congress: someone has to get this money printed, dammit!

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

They tried to get rid of those rules a couple of years ago. It's the UAW that makes them have the job bank.

And that is why Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, etc. have plants in the south. No UAW.

re: #176 Wishing

The term is "fucked". As in "Oh, shit! We're all fucked!"

Obama sure isn't breaking new ground with his appointments so far. They look like they are mostly Clinton Administration retreads or outright Party hacks. Hopey changiness appears to be "back to the future", and "forward into the past". This doesn't bode particularly well for possible selections for Judges going forward. Maybe he'll try and appoint Gorelick to the Supreme Court or something. Or Bill Clinton. The Clenis was disbarred from being able to argue before the Supreme Court. Wouldn't it be ironic (and typical for Democrats) to try and appoint him to the same bench he was disbarred from?

re: #212 Honorary Yooper

They tried to get rid of those rules a couple of years ago. It's the UAW that makes them have the job bank.

And it's the Democrats that want to force Unions on everyone with open voting. I say let the car companies go bankrupt, screw the unions, and start all over again. And let it happen under Obama.

re: #208 Dustoff-507

Sorry Charles the (pattern is full)
Top Gun. (-:

Funny story.

Mid 90s, serving in Marine Security Forces in Japan, around 2am on a very slow night, the radio at the Main Gate receives the message, "Tower, this is Maverick, request permission for a fly by." We played along, "Negative Maverick, the pattern is full." 10 seconds later, the Guard Van zooms by doing 50, swings a U-turn out the gate and rockets back past us. We were busting up for a good 10 minutes.

re: #206 spidly

A bit like the Oregon Public Employee Retirement System.
Wonder why the 13K per kid doesn't see a classroom, there one of the reasons.

Few years ago I read a study on WA education. The WEA is always complaining about class size. The FTE (full time equivalent) teacher to student ratio was like 12 to 1. But classes averaged 28. The take away was 1¼ FTE teachers were not in the class room.

re: #209 Moe Katz

re: #53 Pastorius

" VB has a history of Holocaust Denial and ties to fascists, such as LePen. They are an Ethnic nationalist party, which I think is almost as inherently dangerous a political construct as is Communism.

But, for the life of me, I can't figure out what Vanhecke did wrong here."

"He falsely accused immigrants of the vandalism, and said defamatory things about their culture when it turned out the desecration was by Flemish Youths."

Perhaps it is typically the case that such immigrants are the perps? Then his sin is simply that of premature concludulation?

Exactly, but... if he'd said the same thing about Jews, a few here would be bristling. Let me see if I can find the details, I think I posted about this in spinoffs last night.

re: #221 Nevergiveup

And it's the Democrats that want to force Unions on everyone with open voting. I say let the car companies go bankrupt, screw the unions, and start all over again. And let it happen under Obama.

I second.

re: #184 Dustoff-507

Wasn't Holder in league with Janet Reno in a brief opposing the 2nd amendment in the Heller decision? Maybe, I'm wrong, but I could swear he was agitating against individual gun rights re the case.
If so, there might be enough blue dogs to kill that appointment.....or make Obama spend some political capital getting it through.

re: #220 Iron Fist

Just keep remembering these words. (Change, change, change)

were doomed

re: #177 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Hey, maybe Obama will appoint that Clinton era chick that advocated public schools teaching masturbation. Remember that? I can't recall her name? Joyclin Edwards, maybe?

She'd be a real weiner.

re: #222 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Funny story.

Mid 90s, serving in Marine Security Forces in Japan, around 2am on a very slow night, the radio at the Main Gate receives the message, "Tower, this is Maverick, request permission for a fly by." We played along, "Negative Maverick, the pattern is full." 10 seconds later, the Guard Van zooms by doing 50, swings a U-turn out the gate and rockets back past us. We were busting up for a good 10 minutes.

Marines are so easily amused....

/ Air Force guy *ducks*.

LOL.

re: #228 Iron Fist

Hey, maybe Obama will appoint that Clinton era chick that advocated public schools teaching masturbation. Remember that? I can't recall her name? Joyclin Edwards, maybe?

She'd be a real weiner.

What was she: Surgeon General?

re: #162 Ben Hur

Nah, They’re Not Anti-Semitic

Don't they know that a Lizard is a compliment?

what kind of feet does that lizard have?

re: #194 Thanos

He falsely accused immigrants of the vandalism, and said defamatory things about their culture when it turned out the desecration was by Flemish Youths.

Was anyone ever held accountable of falsely accussing that poor fellow of bombing the Atlanta olympics? Which I believed died recently. Poor health attributed in part to all the grief it brought him.

re: #226 wolfie

I would not be surprise. And Jammie too

And another thing ...

The only way that one can get significant votes by talking about "foreign cultures" being responsible for "desecration of cemeteries" is by having a population made up of ignorant fools.

"Ignorant fools" are the spawn of the nanny state. They see their comfort as threatened by the foreigner because they don't see their comfort as the result of hard work. Such happens when the state convinces you that they give you all that you need. Fear preys on those who have little self worth.

re: #228 Iron Fist

Hey, maybe Obama will appoint that Clinton era chick that advocated public schools teaching masturbation. Remember that? I can't recall her name? Joyclin Edwards, maybe?

She'd be a real weiner.

Joycelyn Elders.

re: #159 WrathofG-d

The truth is that I am now defending a very small portion of a discussion that I really don't disagree on.

I do not support Censorship laws.

I am not naive enough however to believe that "more speech" is always good, or that people will be able to make the right decision after getting both sides. History doesn't show that to be true either. In addition, I accept that words are power and meaning, and when there is a extreme amount of wrong information, horrible things happen.

on that note, though, I must go to a meeting. See you all when I get back probably.

The thought is parent to the deed.

re: #221 Nevergiveup

And it's the Democrats that want to force Unions on everyone with open voting. I say let the car companies go bankrupt, screw the unions, and start all over again. And let it happen under Obama.

We all know the pain is coming. It will be easier for all of us if it comes sooner. I agree with Mitt on this, a bail out now condemns the automakers to complete failure later, while forcing bankruptcies and reorganization now will hurt, but not kill them.

This is from AFP:

STRASBOURG: The European Parliament yesterday stripped a far-right Belgian MEP of his immunity from prosecution so that he can be tried on racism charges. Frank Vanhecke, of the Flemish nationalist party Vlaams Belang, is accused by Freddy Willockx, a Belgian town mayor, over a 2005 Vlaams Belang pamphlet distributed in his town, Saint-Nicolas, which accused “foreigners” of desecrating cemeteries.

The text in question said that “a culture which has no respect for the dead or for the symbols of a different faith is a delinquent culture”. The parliament noted that four local Flemish youths had subsequently been identified as the perpetrators of the crime in the town in Belgium’s Dutch-speaking northern region of Flanders. The European Parliament rejected Vanhecke’s argument that he was the victim of a political witch-hunt.

Vanhecke, who was leader of Vlaams Belang at the time, said he was not the author of the article in question, though he was the publication’s editor. If found guilty of racism he could lose his parliamentary seat. The European Parliament, a strong advocate of freedom of expression, only rarely lifts euro deputies’ immunity over political statements. Here they decided that the parliamentary privileges do not extend to his editorial duties

re: #205 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

U.S. Government to ask U.S. Government for bailout. Details at 11.

Already done that (China)

re: #96 Iron Fist

That kind of crap just really pisses me off. Don't use my name because I'm not supposed to talk about it, but here's the shit...

On this matter it's not that big a deal, but they do the same damn thing on matters of national security.

As far as Daschle goes, I don't know how much damage he can do at HHS. Probably more than I'd like, but, other than being a Party hack what has he done that makes Obama think he is up to the job? So far Obama hasn't impressed me with with the people he's tapped for his Administration. They'll probably sail through the Senate no matter what shows up in oversight hearings. He could appoint Goofy as Sec Def and the new Senate would confirm him.

Isn't Whinney the Pooh in the running?

gotta do some work.

re: #224 Thanos

Exactly, but... if he'd said the same thing about Jews, a few here would be bristling. Let me see if I can find the details, I think I posted about this in spinoffs last night.

Yes, but the difference lies in the veracity of the accusations. Antisemitic speech has historically been based on complete rubbish. So-called Islamophobia, on the other hand, typically has at least a large kernel of truth, and may at times understate the truth. If you try to deal with the two symmetrically you end up silencing honest voices.

re: #226 wolfie

Wasn't Holder in league with Janet Reno in a brief opposing the 2nd amendment in the Heller decision?

and the Marc Rich pardon

re: #228 Iron Fist

Hey, maybe Obama will appoint that Clinton era chick that advocated public schools teaching masturbation. Remember that? I can't recall her name? Joyclin Edwards, maybe?

She'd be a real weiner.

Because when you think of pleasuring yourself, you obviously think of Jocelyn Elders.

re: #227 Dustoff-507

Dustoff, you remember the "deficit lie" Rossi keep spouting during the campaign?

Guess what?

New forecast: State budget shortfall $5 Billion!

Hey, Barney! We need a bail in the Northwet!

*spit* *spit* *spit*

re: #209 Moe Katz

"He falsely accused immigrants of the vandalism, and said defamatory things about their culture when it turned out the desecration was by Flemish Youths."

Perhaps it is typically the case that such immigrants are the perps? Then his sin is simply that of premature concludulation?

You must know that the vast majority of cemetery desecrations are performed by teenage boys. Here in the States, it's commonly part of "legend tripping."

re: #221 Nevergiveup

The unions are either trying to destroy the auto industry or they just don't give a shit. At this point there doesn't seem to be any real distinction.

re: #27 Right mind left

Hey, what is the phobia for being strung upside down by your short hairs?

Ask Bill Clinton

re: #229 jcm

Even better. When I was still in San Diego, I'd be flying my plane near Mira Mar air station and this was just after Top Gun. Two F-14s would take off and head out to sea. You would always see one guy turn the bird upside down and fly that way for a short distance. Them were the days! (-:

Anyone else's 401k in the red for the year?

re: #230 Nevergiveup

Yeah. Surgeon general. If we survived her in that position then I'd say it's a position that we could just cut out and save the money.

re: #247 Iron Fist

The unions are either trying to destroy the auto industry or they just don't give a shit. At this point there doesn't seem to be any real distinction.

Unions are not in the car business, they are into the extortion business!

re: #245 jcm

LOL, sure do.. WE WANT OUR BUCKS! 0-:

re: #246 Dianna

You must know that the vast majority of cemetery desecrations are performed by teenage boys. Here in the States, it's commonly part of "legend tripping."

North African Muslims are responsible for a great deal of vandalism in Europe and here in Quebec.