Whats to be believed from hereon in?

The Times of London emulating the NYT by spewing bs? Oh my! I'm so disillusioned...not.

Ok, so this is good. Let's hope it holds.

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

No Peace in our time

Lets stop lying to each other about a 'peace' initiative. Lets have a war. Whoever wins gets to keep the prize. This 'peace' is nauseating.

So now we go back to knowing even less of what this administration intends to do.

Uzi Mahnaimi strikes again.

Didn't you suspect that in the first place?

re: #4 Sharmuta
Me neither. I think he'll sell Israel down the river so fast, it'll make your head spin.

re: #6 Buster Bunny

Lets stop lying to each other about a 'peace' initiative. Lets have
a war. Whoever wins gets to keep the prize. This 'peace' is nauseating.

see:

1967.

End of story.

Next!

re: #4 Sharmuta

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

Wasn't that the rationale for the throbbing memo?

Saudi and Hamas Spokesmen release joint statement: "This is not the Obama we knew."

It maddens me that they call the Saudi surrender demands a "peace initiative."

re: #4 Sharmuta

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

Sigh, I am afraid you are right. Let's pray we get proven VERY wrong. But with Al Qaida already baiting him as a *house ni***r, I am apprehensive. He may feel the need to show how much like Malcolm X he really is.

peace envoy Dennis Ross

Peace Envoy? What the Hell is that.

The only Peace Envoy I can remember that was effective was dropped by the enola gay

Uzi Mahnaimi strikes again.

...?

re: #4 Sharmuta

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

Highly doubtful, yes. I suspect Obama's "even-handedness" will embarrass even someone like James Baker.

ummm

Obama calls Abbas, promises to back peace talks: official

or

Obama calls Palestinian leader, says peace vital

re: #9 pingjockey

You talking about America's Olmert?

re: #19 WrathofG-dYeppers. Hey, when does Israel vote for a new PM?

re: #13 Alouette

It maddens me that they call the Saudi surrender demands a "peace initiative."

It's an Arabic pun.

"Islam" => surrender
"Salaam" => peace

Same consonants, but "Islam" has a prefix glottal stop ('alef).

That's where the whole stupidity about "Islam, ROP" comes from.

re: #19 WrathofG-d

You talking about America's Olmert?

Mr Appeasement X 2.

I believe Ross. Just like the messiah did know what jermiah wright was saying after 20 years.

re: #16 Fat Jolly Penguin

Uzi Mahnaimi strikes again.

...?

See here. Note the update. The Times' Mahnaimi has a history.

re: #16 Fat Jolly Penguin

...?

I had to google him. Funny, the wikipedia page for him says this:

Uzi Mahnaimi is an Israeli-born journalist. He is a Middle East correspondent for the London based The Sunday Times. He is best known for providing an array of exclusive and topical stories about the Middle East.

But that's not what the google preview says. The cached wikipedia page says this:

Uzi Mahnaimi is an Israeli-born journalist. He currently reports for the London based The Sunday Times. He is best known as co-author of a widely debunked story alleging that Israel had created an ethno-bomb.

Wierd, huh?

Sometimes it just comes to a point when people need to realize words mean nothing.

re: #24 Spiny Norman

See here. Note the update. The Times' Mahnaimi has a history.

Oh yes. Maybe I should pay closer attention. Thanks.

*sighs* Long day...

re: #7 astronmr20

So now we go back to knowing even less of what this administration intends to do.

Not to mention not knowing who does and does not officially work for and speak for Obama. I wonder whether even after he takes office he will keep employing secret envoys and people working off the books to make real policy.

re: #20 pingjockey

Actually I dont know.

re: #25 USCMSNE

Wierd, huh?

Wikipedia articles have a complete revision history. Click the "History" tab at the top of the page.

What does Biden have to say? Isn't Joe supposed to be the One's the main policy foreign policy advisor?

re: #29 WrathofG-d
Ah. Oh well.

re: #32 pingjockey

I'm sure you could find it all over the net. I just don't have time to look it up now.

Ynet, HaAretz, Carl In Jerusalem, The Forward

Dennis Ross prolly meant to say "Obama did not say this...not exactly...not per se..."

re: #31 DeafDog

Biden was unavailable for comment. He is in Bethesda Medical Center having a shoe removed from his mouth.

re: #15 Shug

Peace Envoy? What the Hell is that.

The only Peace Envoy I can remember that was effective was dropped by the enola gay

Are you saying the Peace Envoy dropped by Bockscar on Nagasaki wasn't effective?

re: #33 WrathofG-d
Thank you. Sitting here at the majical device and totally spaced it.

Obama just said " Ross is not the same person I knew six months ago"

re: #4 Sharmuta

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

can we start using FBA to describe implants:)

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Did we forget the campaign so quickly? Its all in HOW it is said.

Former American peace envoy Dennis Ross, who is a senior advisor to US President-elect Barack Obama on Middle East policy, denied on Monday a Sunday Times report that Obama is planning to base his peacemaking efforts in the Middle East on the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.

“I was in the meeting in Ramallah,” Ross said. “Then-Senator Obama did not say this. The story is false.”

The 1st sentence doesn't say that he isn't going to follow the Saudi plan, it only says that he is not going to "base his peacemaking efforts on it." Ok so he will base it on the Obama plan that takes 60% of the Saudi plan. Or he will take 100% but doesn't expect it to be a part of Peace making...just Palestine making. Also there is no direct quote here, only journalist (we know how unbiased they are on both the Arab/Israel issue and Obama) interpretation. Ok, so maybe Obama's plan is going to be worse for Israel than the Saudi plan.

The 2nd sentence also only says that Obama never said he was going to base his efforts on the Saudi Plan. Ok so he didn't say it...but he is going to.

As a Harvard Educated Lawyer, Law Review Editor, and slick politician...Obama knows how to say things, and when to watch his mouth.

I hope this all means what we think it does, but I wouldn't be my Country on it.

re: #36 gmsc

oh no. quite effective.

re: #25 USCMSNE

Wierd, huh?

Ethno bomb.
The stupidity astounds me.

re: #40 WrathofG-d

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Did we forget the campaign so quickly? Its all in HOW it is said.

The 1st sentence doesn't say that he isn't going to follow the Saudi plan, it only says that he is not going to "base his peacemaking efforts on it." Ok so he will base it on the Obama plan that takes 60% of the Saudi plan. Or he will take 100% but doesn't expect it to be a part of Peace making...just Palestine making. Also there is no direct quote here, only journalist (we know how unbiased they are on both the Arab/Israel issue and Obama) interpretation. Ok, so maybe Obama's plan is going to be worse for Israel than the Saudi plan.

The 2nd sentence also only says that Obama never said he was going to base his efforts on the Saudi Plan. Ok so he didn't say it...but he is going to.

As a Harvard Educated Lawyer, Law Review Editor, and slick politician...Obama knows how to say things, and when to watch his mouth.

I hope this all means what we think it does, but I wouldn't be my Country on it.

Joe Biden is that you? :)

OT: Quote of the day:

On November 17, 1978, Jim Jones was a hero to American leftists. On November 18, 1978, Jones orchestrated the killings of 918 people and strangely morphed in the eyes of American leftists into an evangelical Christian fanatic.

-Daniel Flynn, Don't Drink The Kool-Aid on Jonestown

re: #28 stuiec

Not to mention not knowing who does and does not officially work for and speak for Obama. I wonder whether even after he takes office he will keep employing secret envoys and people working off the books to make real policy.

Well, a lot of Presidents DO have their own Kitchen Cabinets; however, in Barry's case his "close advisors" are the plague that the fleas inflict on the rats in the kitchen.

Good to hear.

Woo hoo.

As much as people run Dennis Ross down (because he's a Clintonian, and willing to compromise with Fatah), this is a man who is willing to go to the ends of the Earth to tell the truth as he sees it when he feels that his "partner in peace" is not acting in good faith.

re: #42 buzzsawmonkey

I can't think of an example off the top of my head (maybe you can off yours) but Obama famously did this numerous times in the campaign.

Sliced his words, and stating things that were technically correct, but would have universally been understood to give a different meaning.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

useful piece terms.

re: #48 WrathofG-d

I can't think of an example off the top of my head (maybe you can off yours) but Obama famously did this numerous times in the campaign.

Sliced his words, and stating things that were technically correct, but would have universally been understood to give a different meaning.

Like how McCain said, of Iraq, "We'll stay as long as we need too," and Obama said, "We'll leave as soon as possible," and that technically, these two sentences could be saying the same thing?

The anti_war crowd heard "leave Iraq" but the clause "as soon as possible" could mean almost anything.

"This is not the peace initiative I know."
"I was only 41 years old when this was proposed."
"...a distraction from the real issues."

Carry on, Obama press office.

re: #50 Silhouette

Exactly. Thus all we can get from Dennis (I authored numerous failed Peace initiatives, and bet on Oslo so why not hire me again) Ross' denial is that Obama never actually SAID he would rely on the Saudi Plan.

I never thought the report had the ring of truth to it, not from the beginning. Glad to see I was right.

Umm.. I thought Dennis Ross was a pretty good guy. I seem to remember him saying some things that made sense about the Middle East at some point in the past...
Am I remembering wrong?

re: #50 Silhouette

Like how McCain said, of Iraq, "We'll stay as long as we need too," and Obama said, "We'll leave as soon as possible," and that technically, these two sentences could be saying the same thing?

The anti_war crowd heard "leave Iraq" but the clause "as soon as possible" could mean almost anything.

I tried pointing that exact point out over at Kos once. Guess how that went over.

re: #52 WrathofG-d

Wrath... I was teasing you with the "whoa whoa whoa" thing.
/it always reminds me of Biden. :)

i guess we won't know where he stands on anything for sure, until he actually has to quit talking and a make a decision.
and even then, how will we know if he just voted present and shit happened from nonfeasance.

re: #54 Davida

No. He is "good". He would tell you that Israel has a right to defend herself, and that Terrorism is wrong.

But he is also still fooled by the "Two state solution is right around the corner fallacy", and believes that the failed "2 state", give up 1/2 of Jerusalem, limited Demand of Return, aka: OSLO, is the way to go.

He isn't evil...just naive and wrong.

re: #55 bosforus

I tried pointing that exact point out over at Kos once. Guess how that went over.

I have a guess!

IMHO, Israel is going to have to do something before Jan. 20th.

U.S.: Senior Iranian Commando Arrested in Iraq

BAGHDAD — The U.S. military says it has arrested an alleged senior member of the Iranian security forces suspected of funneling weapons into Iraq.

The military says in a statement released Wednesday that the alleged member of Iran's Revolutionary Guards' elite Quds force was detained at Baghdad Airport while trying to leave the country on Tuesday.

The military says the suspect was using a job building and repairing religious sites in Iraq as cover to funnel weapons into the country.

The U.S. alleges the Iranian was smuggling weapons into Iraq in legitimate shipments of building materials.

The U.S. has long accused Iran of training and arming Shiite extremist groups in Iraq and fueling the insurgency.

Tehran denies the charges.

re: #59 gmsc

You actually thought you could get people jonzing on a empty Change mantra to look behind the rhetoric of their own guy?

wow. I believe in the coming of Moshiach, but still don't have that kind of faith.

Dennis Ross:

Arafat did not come up with one idea at Camp David

Ross: Arafat said Temple was in Nablus
By TOVAH LAZAROFF
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat "never offered any substantive ideas [for peace], not once" during the 15 days of talks at Camp David in the summer of 2000, former US peace negotiator Dennis Ross said yesterday.

The only thing he did say was that the Second Temple, destroyed by the Romans almost 2000 years ago, never existed in Jerusalem as the Jews believe. He said it was located somewhere in Nablus, Ross said.

"He did offer one new idea, which was that that the Temple didn't exist in Jerusalem, that it was in Nablus," Ross told Channel 1 last night.

"Arafat didn't offer anything but slogans during this period. He never indicated that he would even make a decision," said Ross, one of the main mediators between Israel and the Palestinians under former presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton.

Ross said that when meeting with Clinton in Washington in January 2001, Arafat appeared to accept the compromises made by both sides, but later raised reservations that undercut them. Therefore, Ross said, he would believe Arafat's reported statement yesterday that he now accepts the Clinton ideas, if he clarifies what that means in detail.

Israel Radio reported Arafat told a group of bereaved Israeli families that he supports the proposals presented at Camp David by prime minister Ehud Barak and Clinton.

Still, Ross said, the Palestinian negotiators made important concessions during the Camp David talks and would likely not have done so unless they thought Arafat would ultimately support them.
Ross said he believes Arafat is not a partner for peace, but at the same time Israel cannot bypass him.

re: #4 Sharmuta

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

American Jews won't stand with Israel.

One of the many reasons Ross, Bush, Obama, and Olmert are just wrong about what will bring peace.

re: #58 WrathofG-d

I see. I'll keep my eyes and ears open then.

Though I prefer naive to outright crazed...

At this point I'm grasping at any straw to avoid total despair.

Sigh...

re: #57 nyc redneck

i guess we won't know where he stands on anything for sure, until he actually has to quit talking and a make a decision.
and even then, how will we know if he just voted present and shit happened from nonfeasance.

Maybe 0bama figures, "Hey, voting present and being voted President sound similar. How different could they be?"

re: #62 WrathofG-d

You actually thought you could get people jonzing on a empty Change mantra to look behind the rhetoric of their own guy?

wow. I believe in the coming of Moshiach, but still don't have that kind of faith.

No, but maybe you could ask the same question of bosforus.

re: #63 Pastorius

Dennis Ross:

Arafat did not come up with one idea at Camp David

Ross: Arafat said Temple was in Nablus
By TOVAH LAZAROFF
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat "never offered any substantive ideas [for peace], not once" during the 15 days of talks at Camp David in the summer of 2000, former US peace negotiator Dennis Ross said yesterday.

The only thing he did say was that the Second Temple, destroyed by the Romans almost 2000 years ago, never existed in Jerusalem as the Jews believe. He said it was located somewhere in Nablus, Ross said.

"He did offer one new idea, which was that that the Temple didn't exist in Jerusalem, that it was in Nablus," Ross told Channel 1 last night.

"Arafat didn't offer anything but slogans during this period. He never indicated that he would even make a decision," said Ross, one of the main mediators between Israel and the Palestinians under former presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton.

Ross said that when meeting with Clinton in Washington in January 2001, Arafat appeared to accept the compromises made by both sides, but later raised reservations that undercut them. Therefore, Ross said, he would believe Arafat's reported statement yesterday that he now accepts the Clinton ideas, if he clarifies what that means in detail.

Israel Radio reported Arafat told a group of bereaved Israeli families that he supports the proposals presented at Camp David by prime minister Ehud Barak and Clinton.

Still, Ross said, the Palestinian negotiators made important concessions during the Camp David talks and would likely not have done so unless they thought Arafat would ultimately support them.
Ross said he believes Arafat is not a partner for peace, but at the same time Israel cannot bypass him.

Like I said above, Dennis Ross "good" but naive and wrong.

re: #63 Pastorius

The Missing Peace is a great book. . .

The simple explanation?

Obama is a two faced guy who is willing to coddle Palestinians and Arabs to get elected and then change his position once in office, and has such a command of making vague promises that he can say "not true" about a promise when those he made it to are morally certain otherwise.

This is also how he is dealing with the "progressives" that worked for him who are getting a Clinton 2.0 cabinet.

Meet the new boss - same as the old boss.

/ Wondering when the cognitive dissonance will kick in.

re: #70 buzzsawmonkey

I guess that is what you get when we keep electing LAWYERS!

re: #62 WrathofG-d

Moshiach Now!

Change!

;-)

re: #71 DisturbedEma

The Missing Peace is a great book. . .

Despite its blind spots. . .

re: #45 gmsc

Good point to bring up. Jones was a public housing director in San Francisco who was so fed up with America and capitalism he started the commune in Jonestown. It is one of the best kept leftie secrets in the last few decades. It seems everyone just assumes they were religious fanatics.

re: #72 karmic_inquisitor

The simple explanation?

Obama is a two faced guy who is willing to coddle Palestinians and Arabs to get elected and then change his position once in office, and has such a command of making vague promises that he can say "not true" about a promise when those he made it to are morally certain otherwise.

This is also how he is dealing with the "progressives" that worked for him who are getting a Clinton 2.0 cabinet.

Meet the new boss - same as the old boss.

/ Wondering when the cognitive dissonance will kick in.

Everything Old is new again. . .

re: #76 mich-again

Good point to bring up. Jones was a public housing director in San Francisco who was so fed up with America and capitalism he started the commune in Jonestown. It is one of the best kept leftie secrets in the last few decades. It seems everyone just assumes they were religious fanatics.

Yeah, the religion things came much later. . .and as a side bar to the anti government aspect. . .right?

re: #64 kansas

American Jews won't stand with Israel.

Why should they? I'm asking this out of a quest to explain their voting patterns. Do American Jews feel themselves tied to a motherland like Israel? Or do they see themselves as Americans whose religion happen to be Jewish?

re: #74 Davida

Moshiach Now!

Change!

;-)

Baruch HaShem. . .for real. . .

re: #80 Russkilitlover

Why should they? I'm asking this out of a quest to explain their voting patterns. Do American Jews feel themselves tied to a motherland like Israel? Or do they see themselves as Americans whose religion happen to be Jewish?

They have drunk the kool aid of loyalty to America of course. . .and have sold their souls for 'tolerance' that is vapid and as stable as the stock market. . .

re: #73 WrathofG-d

I guess that is what you get when we keep electing LAWYERS!

Interesting thought: Since 1980, the only two lawyers that the Republicans have run as a presidential or vice-presidential candidate were Bob Dole and Dan Quayle.

Since 1980, the only two non-lawyers that the Democrats have run as a presidential or vice-presidential candidate were Jimmy Carter and Al Gore.

re: #73 WrathofG-d

I guess that is what you get when we keep electing LAWYERS!

Obama wasn't much of a lawyer. I think I read it on Wizbang. He only billed 3,000+ hours over 4 years for the law firm in Chicago. Must have been on the streets organizing.

re: #76 mich-again

Good point to bring up. Jones was a public housing director in San Francisco who was so fed up with America and capitalism he started the commune in Jonestown. It is one of the best kept leftie secrets in the last few decades. It seems everyone just assumes they were religious fanatics.

It is because the press has doubled up on his 'religious' teachings. they have since the murder/suicides

re: #78 buzzsawmonkey

Layers upon layers; lawyers upon lawyers.

And, of course, turtles all the way down.

so are you saying we need tortoise reform?

re: #82 DisturbedEma

They have drunk the kool aid of loyalty to America of course.. .

I have a problem with this statement. Isn't assimilation to America and American values what most of us conservatives expect of immigrants?

re: #80 Russkilitlover

wow this again.

1st, Jews are not monolithic.
2nd, Jews' are Americans first.
3rd, Most Jews don't actually give a dang about Judaism
4th, Most Jews that think they do, don't know Judaism
5th, Most Jews who voted for Obama thought they were helping Israel.
6th, When Jews left Israel, 3/4 were stayed in Egypt.
7th, Most American Jews think Liberalism IS Judaism.
8th...its NOT the Jews' fault!

re: #86 bellamags

so are you saying we need tortoise reform?

On behalf of MandyManners:

*smack*

re: #80 Russkilitlover

Why should they? I'm asking this out of a quest to explain their voting patterns. Do American Jews feel themselves tied to a motherland like Israel? Or do they see themselves as Americans whose religion happen to be Jewish?

It shouldnt matter. As a Catholic, I would side with Vatican City if it were surrounded by forces wishing to destroy it.

So, it seems that we know even less than we did before. But, and here's the bad sign, the soon-to-be inaugurated one, having packed his advisory team with a mixed bag of leftists, nut-jobs, and quietly seething academic types, still keeps talking about peace plans and proposals.

I haven't seen one yet that didn't involve Israel giving up something in exchange for more of the same from the Arabs.

re: #84 VMA211Dan

Oh he IS a lawyer. By training and action. He sounds more like a lawyer than most politicians from where I sit.

I'm a lawyer. Take one to know one.

re: #86 bellamags

so are you saying we need tortoise reform?

turtle torte'

yum

re: #94 buzzsawmonkey

you made my day ; )

good night Irene

Oh, and today, walking past me on the street, close enough to feel the waves of pure, unadulterated evil, there was some jackass wearing a t-shirt that read "Death to Zionism."

And this was in a residential area; there aren't any colleges or universities for miles. This guy operates in my own backyard.

Respect the seven second delay.

re: #88 WrathofG-d
OOPS! Don't you know? It is always da Joooz fault.

re: #98 Guanxi88

Oh, and today, walking past me on the street, close enough to feel the waves of pure, unadulterated evil, there was some jackass wearing a t-shirt that read "Death to Zionism."

And this was in a residential area; there aren't any colleges or universities for miles. This guy operates in my own backyard.

What, if anything, should I make of this? Can we expect to see more of this crap outside occupied Berkeley and the East Coast nuthouses, or is my grandfather's paranoia starting to affect me, all these years later?

re: #101 Guanxi88

Every avalanche starts with a single snow flake.

re: #82 DisturbedEma

They have drunk the kool aid of loyalty to America of course

Say what?!?

re: #88 WrathofG-d

wow this again.

1st, Jews are not monolithic.
2nd, Jews' are Americans first.
3rd, Most Jews don't actually give a dang about Judaism
4th, Most Jews that think they do, don't know Judaism
5th, Most Jews who voted for Obama thought they were helping Israel.
6th, When Jews left Israel, 3/4 were stayed in Egypt.
7th, Most American Jews think Liberalism IS Judaism.
8th...its NOT the Jews' fault!

I knew my question would rile but it still doesn't suffice. What do American Jews think of Israel? Are they willing to fight for it? Or is it just another middle eastern problem that so many non-Jewish Americans label it?

Your #5 doesn't jive, not with all the info about Barry and his associates. How could any American Jew who enthusiastically supported him think that he has Israel's best interests in mind? I mean, I'm not particularly religious in any sense, but I see Israel as an American ally, not a religious battleground, but a national interest battleground.

I am NOT blaming "the Jews" for anything. I'm just curious about the disconnect between conservatives who believe in the battleground of Israel and others who do not.

re: #101 Guanxi88

What, if anything, should I make of this? Can we expect to see more of this crap outside occupied Berkeley and the East Coast nuthouses, or is my grandfather's paranoia starting to affect me, all these years later?

do what I did when one of my kids' friends was sporting a Che' shirt. I asked him if he know who Che was and why he was supporting a marxist hench man. then I got a bunch of stuff together on Che'
Never saw the shirt again.

re: #93 WrathofG-d

Oh he IS a lawyer. By training and action. He sounds more like a lawyer than most politicians from where I sit.

I'm a lawyer. Take one to know one.

Oh, I agree. It seems he voted present at the law firm too. He hung around enough to pick up lawyer-speak and pad the resume, but didn't really do any meaningful work.Just like in the Ill. state senate, U.S. Senate. Gonna be fun the next four years trying to guess what this empty suit will do next.

OT: Murtha tries to weasel out of lawsuit:

WASHINGTON – A Marine who sued Rep. John Murtha for defamation urged a federal appeals court Tuesday to order the Pennsylvania Democrat to testify under oath in the case.

An attorney for Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich told the court that he needs Murtha's deposition to determine how often the congressman made the claim that Marines in Iraq engaged in "cold-blooded murder and war crimes" in the slayings of civilians in Haditha.

A government lawyer representing Murtha told the judges that the lawmaker has immunity from the lawsuit because he was acting in his official role as a lawmaker when he made the comments to reporters.

Arguments over whether Murtha must testify was argued before a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.

re: #88 WrathofG-d

wow this again.

1st, Jews are not monolithic.
2nd, Jews' are Americans first.
3rd, Most Jews don't actually give a dang about Judaism
4th, Most Jews that think they do, don't know Judaism
5th, Most Jews who voted for Obama thought they were helping Israel.
6th, When Jews left Israel, 3/4 were stayed in Egypt.
7th, Most American Jews think Liberalism IS Judaism.
8th...its NOT the Jews' fault!

think of jewish observace as a line;
non-conected jews, then reconstonist, then reform, then consevative, traditional then ortho, then chasidic
generally the closer to ortho the more pro israel you are either because you have family members in israel or have been there.

re: #78 buzzsawmonkey

Layers upon layers; lawyers upon lawyers.

And, of course, turtles all the way down.

This reminds me of a comic strip in which a professor assembles some equipment and several witnesses. As he's being prepared with the equipment, he talks about how proud he is to finally test his theoretical discovery, and that he expects this to be a historic day for mankind. With a really long rope around his waist, he then takes a big jump . . .

. . . you finally see him hanging upside, looking at something (you can't see what just yet), and saying, "Aha! I knew it! I was right!" The final frame shows turtle standing on turtles all the way down, but with an aardvark inbetween 2 of the turtles. The professor is saying, "I knew it wasn't turtles ALL the way down!" The aardvark is saying, "Damn! I've been discovered!"

re: #85 Eowyn2

It is because the press has doubled up on his 'religious' teachings. they have since the murder/suicides

And they always fail to mention how Democratic Politicians like Walter Mondale, Hubert Humphrey, Jimmy Carter adored Jones for all his great work. And this too.

Willie Brown, who later served as Democratic Speaker of the California Assembly, in 1976 introduced Jones as a combination Martin Luther King, Angela Davis, Albert Einstein and Chairman Mao.

re: #76 mich-again

Good point to bring up. Jones was a public housing director in San Francisco who was so fed up with America and capitalism he started the commune in Jonestown. It is one of the best kept leftie secrets in the last few decades. It seems everyone just assumes they were religious fanatics.

i thought he was a preacher.

re: #111 nyc redneck

He ran some new age temple that pimped his own "religion" aka socialism.

re: #84 VMA211Dan

Obama wasn't much of a lawyer. I think I read it on Wizbang. He only billed 3,000+ hours over 4 years for the law firm in Chicago. Must have been on the streets organizing.

He's got a bit of a history of ignoring his current job as he tries to get the next one.

re: #104 Russkilitlover

Ok here is the clearist and briefist of answers I can give you.

Some love her, some hate her, some are on the fence, and some believe she causes more trouble than she is worth.

As for how could anyone vote for Obama and think it helps Israel? Well the same way anyone could vote for Obama and think it would help the United States. Some believe in some perverted, backwards way that giving into the demands of her enemies on territory, security, and rights is actually the way to Peace. (Bush, Condi, Olmert, Livni, Obama, and Clinton included). Thus if you think all this blatant American support for Israel is actually causing the Islamists to get angry, and giving them a reason to fight, then giving in to them would thus create peace. Thus, bolstering Obama's support the enemy attitude would stop the fighting, and thus create Peace as far as they are concerned.

re: #90 buzzsawmonkey

As a Marxist, Jim Jones surely regarded religion as the opiate of the masses. He was, according to his own belief system, a pusher and drug lord of gigantic proportions.

And he proved that Marxism fails on the small scale just as severely as on the large scale. Case in point:

They weren't drinking Kool-Aid, but rather the cheap knock-off Flavor-Aid.

re: #113 mich-again

He ran some new age temple that pimped his own "religion" aka socialism.

i didn't know this. how interesting.

Later folks.

jim jones promised those people utopia. they all sold their homes and possessions and gave him the money. he was just a fcking crazy evil bastard.
their messiah.

re: #87 Russkilitlover

I have a problem with this statement. Isn't assimilation to America and American values what most of us conservatives expect of immigrants?

Only when our "loyalty" is questioned. . . Pope/Rome/JFK another aspect of that "other question" part. . .

re: #120 DisturbedEma

I sense a problem coming with this guy...

re: #105 Eowyn2

re: #105 Eowyn2

do what I did when one of my kids' friends was sporting a Che' shirt. I asked him if he know who Che was and why he was supporting a marxist hench man. then I got a bunch of stuff together on Che'
Never saw the shirt again.

See, here's the thing about that: getting in this guy's face, while very satisfying personally, would not do much that would be useful. I mean, if you're going to go out and about with something like that on your shirt, then your mind is more or less made up already. Contrast this with a Che shirt; hipsters wear them, but don't know who he was or the evil he did.

So, fashion is one thing; a foolish thing, but there it is. But ANY shirt or banner that begins "DEATH TO.." is probably not the emblem of a person who can be persuaded. I think of it as sort of a marker; I know to remember his face and keep an eye peeled for him.

And, besides, if I did the right thing, I'd be booked for assault and battery before the day was through. I hate brownshirts and their spiritual kin, but I don't want to become one myself. Hence, no action.

Why not say something? Well, what can you say to that? Not a damned thing without starting a donnybrook.

And never forget that they didn't all drink the kool aid willingly. Men were standing around with guns making sure they did.

Many fled into the woods, which is how we know what happened there.

re: #103 experiencedtraveller

Say what?!?

Drink the Obama Kool aid and show that you are a "good American"

re: #121 WrathofG-d

I sense a problem coming with this guy...

I'm a girl. . .or did you mean Obama?

re: #123 Silhouette

And never forget that they didn't all drink the kool aid willingly. Men were standing around with guns making sure they did.

Many fled into the woods, which is how we know what happened there.

And the children were murdered. . .

re: #124 DisturbedEma

Drink the Obama Kool aid and show that you are a "good American"

Now that is perfectly understandable. Thanks.

re: #123 Silhouette

And never forget that they didn't all drink the kool aid willingly. Men were standing around with guns making sure they did.

Many fled into the woods, which is how we know what happened there.

one hid under her bed. an old lady who knew that the coming roll call would end up badly. she heard the others screaming and crying.

re: #125 DisturbedEma

I meant Kilt whatever & its questioning of the loyalty of Jews to American, and belief that all Jews blindly support Israel, and every time we vote it is about Israel.

re: #114 CyanSnowHawk

Obama's real dream job is the post-presidential speaking tour at a million dollars a pop.
He's like the dog chasing the car. He hasn't a clue what to do now that he's caught the car.

re: #114 CyanSnowHawk

Have you ever taken the time to read Professor Obama's final exams from his stint teaching Con Law. The questions offer a window into his perspective on the Constitution.

To Professor Obama the Constitution's main purpose is to promote social programs to his favorite victim classes.

re: #132 Mich-again

Have you ever taken the time to read Professor Obama's final exams from his stint teaching Con Law. The questions offer a window into his perspective on the Constitution.

To Professor Obama the Constitution's main purpose is to promote social programs to his favorite victim classes.

Let's pray that the weight and seriousness of the Presidency knocks some reality into his head.

re: #132 Mich-again

Reminds me of a conversation I was having with a new attorney that ended when she proudly stated that the entire purpose of laws was to protect only the poor since the rich don't need to be protected.

re: #131 yenta-fada

He's like the dog chasing the car. He hasn't a clue what to do now that he's caught the car.

I thought that a very apt description of the look on his face as he toured the White House. He looked a little shocked to be there.

re: #134 WrathofG-d

Reminds me of a conversation I was having with a new attorney that ended when she proudly stated that the entire purpose of laws was to protect only the poor since the rich don't need to be protected.

I hope she got stuck with tons of pro bono work.

re: #136 rightymouse

Sort of. Insurance Defense work.

After she said this I informed her politely that "no, laws are to protect all citizens equally", and she gave me this look like I was on crack.

I don't know what her teachers were selling but that isn't what I learned in Law School. Either I wasn't paying attention, or my teachers were actually smart.

re: #121 WrathofG-d

I sense a problem coming with this guy...

You talkin' to me? 'Cause I'm not a "guy" and I'm just a person searching for answers amid discussion.

Took them long enough to respond. They must have had to think about, or rethink it.

re: #112 buzzsawmonkey

Because--at least this is what people said to me--"Obama said he supported Israel at the AIPAC meeting; America has always supported Israel, so there's no problem; Obama's smart; the Democrats are friends of Israel, and I've always voted Democrat; Palin is a conservative Christian and the conservative Christians want to convert Jews, so I wouldn't vote for her under any circumstances; a "Jews for Jesus" person spoke at Palin's church."

Seriously. That is what people said to me. There is not a thimble's worth of substance in it, but that is what the Jews I know who voted for Obama said.

Exactly. I was at a meeting with some AIPAC people and an Israeli consul person the day after the AIPAC speech, at which they had been present. They were ecstatic about Obama's speech and pontificated on its merits. They never did come back to our community with the news that Obama backed out of what he said at AIPAC and, since of course the press didn't cover the backtracking, people kept talking about the AIPAC speech right up to the election.

re: #112 buzzsawmonkey

Also, the mockery of Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin which continue to this day have left me with a sour taste at the elitism of this group who think they are better than someone...

re: #138 Russkilitlover

Then you might want to think before you type. You get answers then don't accept them, and use them to really get to what I believe is your actual purpose: to paint Jews as a monolithic group whose first interest is Israel.

This isn't the case, and your illusions to it are suspect.

re: #143 WrathofG-d

Anyone who thinks Jews are some monolithic group are gravely mistaken.

re: #137 WrathofG-d

Sort of. Insurance Defense work.

After she said this I informed her politely that "no, laws are to protect all citizens equally", and she gave me this look like I was on crack.

I don't know what her teachers were selling but that isn't what I learned in Law School. Either I wasn't paying attention, or my teachers were actually smart.

Aren't law schools pretty liberal these days? I don't know why they became that way, but that seems to be a trend.

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

Once again, you are right.

I like to point out that the Torah is about Justice, before "peace" or "love", "social equality" or anything else the "brands" of Judaism profess.

you are right. When you allow for the "impoverished" or otherwise "poor" individual to get special treatment (ie: forgiving the thief because he had a bad childhood) you don't make the victim full. And thus no justice is created.

The universal American symbol for Justice is a woman blind. Symbolism is correct there. Justice is blind! To the rich and to the poor. All equal under the law. If only we could go back to that.

re: #145 rightymouse

All schools are. This is because they no longer believe it is their job to teach, but instead to affect society.

re: #147 WrathofG-d

All schools are. This is because they no longer believe it is their job to teach, but instead to affect society.

That's why my teenlet goes to a private school. Even then, we have to be on guard as his teachers tend to drift left and can't help but bring that into the classroom.

All I know for sure is, if I ever have to go to court for anything. I would rather be Rich and Guilty than Poor and innocent. You serve less jail time that way.

"think of jewish observace as a line;
non-conected jews, then reconstonist, then reform, then consevative, traditional then ortho, then chasidic
generally the closer to ortho the more pro israel you are either because you have family members in israel or have been there."

Unfortunately, the last line does not hold true.

I know Jews who go to Israel regularly, send their kids on programs, heck, one has his son in the Israeli army, and STILL they voted for Obama.

There is an excellent article, THE TRAGIC PREDICTABILITY OF THE JEWISH VOTE
GrassTopsUSA Exclusive Commentary
By Don Feder
11-17-08
that explains most of it.

Basically, the Jewish vote has nothing to do with being Jewish, much like the Catholic vote. It's about liberalism; belief, loyalty to liberalism, whatever that means, trumps all.

As I asked leading up to the election, "Who WOULDN'T these people vote for if he claimed to be a liberal Democrat, Arafat, Hitler?"

Of course I can't say this to my friends and relative; they would be appalled and ask how dare I for saying such a thing.

It's actually completely insane. In the mental health world we call it,
"a crazy making situation." I think it's a form of self projection. These people are torn about being loyal to Israel and liberalism so they project their issues onto others. I've been accused of caring only for Israel but truth is I couldn't vote for Obama on a HOST of issues like taxes, role of government, healthcare, the courts; Israel is but one issue.

It's the Leftie Jews who are one issue voters.

re: #140 Jay777

Took them long enough to respond. They must have had to think about, or rethink it.

Um ... this story was out and posted in the spin-off links here two days ago (by me). Didn't get much attention.

I'm just sayin'...

re: #144 Sunlight

Anyone who thinks Jews are some monolithic group are gravely mistaken.

Isn't there an old joke in there about 2 Jews/3 opinions?

re: #153 experiencedtraveller

Wasn't that One Arab people 25 Countries?

re: #146 WrathofG-d

Once again, you are right.

I like to point out that the Torah is about Justice, before "peace" or "love", "social equality" or anything else the "brands" of Judaism profess.

you are right. When you allow for the "impoverished" or otherwise "poor" individual to get special treatment (ie: forgiving the thief because he had a bad childhood) you don't make the victim full. And thus no justice is created.

The universal American symbol for Justice is a woman blind. Symbolism is correct there. Justice is blind! To the rich and to the poor. All equal under the law. If only we could go back to that.

What are the relevant parts of the Torah? I think of the field where the owner keeps 90% and leaves the 10% around the outside for poor people to harvest and eat. This implies that the incentive is for the owner to do better and better (the rich getting richer) because that means the poor people's 10% grows. The gap between rich and poor is better the bigger it is according to this system. How did Jews get from this to Marx's idea that each according to their needs or enforced leveling (spread the wealth around, redistribution, etc.)?

re: #152 Lynn B.

Um ... this story was out and posted in the spin-off links here two days ago (by me). Didn't get much attention.

I'm just sayin'...

Welcome to the club :)

re: #151 Psychobarb

i only have social contact with ortho & traditional jews the libs i have little or no contact with esp since liberal jews from a aol jewish chat got me censored by aol.

re: #154 WrathofG-d

Wasn't that One Arab people 25 Countries?

Ha! Although 25 tyrants voting against us in the UN ain't really that funny...

re: #155 Sunlight

Wow, that is a great question, but one I wouldn't dare try to explain here if at all. I very strongly believe it is way past my pay grade.

I'll just say this. The longer Jews were in Gulus the further we got away from G-d. It became harder to understand the Ultimate Truth, and thus many gave in to their "eyes and hearts" as we are warned every morning not to do.

re: #151 Psychobarb

"think of jewish observace as a line;
non-conected jews, then reconstonist, then reform, then consevative, traditional then ortho, then chasidic
generally the closer to ortho the more pro israel you are either because you have family members in israel or have been there."

Unfortunately, the last line does not hold true.

I know Jews who go to Israel regularly, send their kids on programs, heck, one has his son in the Israeli army, and STILL they voted for Obama.

There is an excellent article, THE TRAGIC PREDICTABILITY OF THE JEWISH VOTE
GrassTopsUSA Exclusive Commentary
By Don Feder
11-17-08
that explains most of it.

Basically, the Jewish vote has nothing to do with being Jewish, much like the Catholic vote. It's about liberalism; belief, loyalty to liberalism, whatever that means, trumps all.

As I asked leading up to the election, "Who WOULDN'T these people vote for if he claimed to be a liberal Democrat, Arafat, Hitler?"

Of course I can't say this to my friends and relative; they would be appalled and ask how dare I for saying such a thing.

It's actually completely insane. In the mental health world we call it,
"a crazy making situation." I think it's a form of self projection. These people are torn about being loyal to Israel and liberalism so they project their issues onto others. I've been accused of caring only for Israel but truth is I couldn't vote for Obama on a HOST of issues like taxes, role of government, healthcare, the courts; Israel is but one issue.

It's the Leftie Jews who are one issue voters.

But remember, even with all the publicity the "Jewish vote" gets, it's only about 6 mil out of 300 mil, with the main lumps in NY and LA, so it is a trivial effect.

i would say reform/reconstionism is J.I.N.O. and many aren't even jewish since reform changed 'ME YEHUDI'

Really the Voters never had a chance. Obama Lama Ding Dong, is the American Idol President. Straight off the shelf, Polished and paid for by the one sided Media. He was a Star before any one even Knew who he was.

re: #160 WrathofG-d

Where could I look?

re: #163 yochanan

i would say reform/reconstionism is J.I.N.O. and many aren't even jewish since reform changed 'ME YEHUDI'

Careful.

Most jews are urban voters. except for ortho, russian and israeli most of the others are liberal

re: #163 yochanan

i would say reform/reconstionism is J.I.N.O. and many aren't even jewish since reform changed 'ME YEHUDI'

When I was a kid, I asked about the Reform, and my mother told me that they were a social club. I was 10, so I just sort of accepted it at face-value. What I saw when I was a little older sort of confirmed her wry comment.

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

I think some editing was needed to make it non-ethnicity-specific.

Thank you! I've found lefties just..well..lefty..regardless of gender, race, or creed.

re: #163 yochanan

I think that should be J.B.T.O (Jews By Technicality Only) insofar that, they ARE Jews (assuming their mother's were, or they orthodoxically converted).

However if your statement is towards those that think they are Jews because their Father is, even though they don't actually follow Judaism...then you have a point about J.I.N.O.

re: #165 Sunlight

Where could I look?

If you are Jewish, go to AISH in your city.

If you are not Jewish...I really don't know.

re: #168 Guanxi88

What? A new york accent, being able to say "tikkun olam", and eating a bagle with lox isn't enough to make you a Jew?

~prejudiced, racist, Jerk!

/

re: #25 USCMSNE

I had to google him. Funny, the wikipedia page for him says this:

Uzi Mahnaimi is an Israeli-born journalist. He is a Middle East correspondent for the London based The Sunday Times. He is best known for providing an array of exclusive and topical stories about the Middle East.

But that's not what the google preview says. The cached wikipedia page says this:

Uzi Mahnaimi is an Israeli-born journalist. He currently reports for the London based The Sunday Times. He is best known as co-author of a widely debunked story alleging that Israel had created an ethno-bomb.

Wierd, huh?

Great catch! But at least as of right now, the cached version still reads just like the preview. The actual Wikipedia page shows your second version.

Some little editor at Wikipedia's been busy since Nov 6, 2008 21:09:17 GMT. I expect the cache will catch up soon.

Maybe someone who knows how to grab page captures should snap this?

re: #4 Sharmuta

Fake but accurate- I still think he won't stand with Israel.

You and me both. That worries me about the future of Israel.

re: #172 WrathofG-d

What? A new york accent, being able to say "tikkun olam", and eating a bagle with lox isn't enough to make you a Jew?

/

Hey, look, I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying, is all. Besides, she wasn't talking about anybody but the people she was talking about.

But seriously, that's what she said. She was Conservative, same as her father before her, and she always used to make a point about being distinguished from the Reform.

Gen James L Jones does not approve

re: #143 WrathofG-d

Then you might want to think before you type. You get answers then don't accept them, and use them to really get to what I believe is your actual purpose: to paint Jews as a monolithic group whose first interest is Israel.

This isn't the case, and your illusions to it are suspect.

You don't know me, so please do not ascribe purposes to me. I'm just asking. I don't have the religious or historical background regarding Israel that I know you do, I'm just searching for answers to my own questions vis-a-vis the disconnect between American Jewish seemingly BHO worship, and the national interest of America vis-a-vis national security. If I can't do this on LGF, I don't know where else to search.

re: #166 Sunlight

according to the Torah a Jew is some one who's mother is Jewish or who converted according to the Jewish law. reform changed that to either parent so if the father is Jewish and the mother isn't according to Jewish tradition the kid is a gentile. and a convert has to accept the Torah as g-d's word something reform and reconstionism don't accept. the convert has to accept the idea of being shormer mitzvahs something the reform rabbi's don't accept. And since the Jewish religion doesn't require conversion for a person to be rewarded for his or her behavior i.e. a gentile who fellows the 7 mitzvahs of Noah gets the same reward as the Jew who fellows 613 mitzvahs in fact if the convert does not intend to fellow the mitzvahs to the best of his ability it would be better for him/her to stay a gentile as the requirements are just as important.

re: #167 yochanan

Most jews are urban voters. except for ortho, russian and israeli most of the others are liberal

Well that sums things up better than anything else I've heard. Thanks!

re: #164 Kaos Hiker

Oh my.

This is the same feeling I had during the election.

It felt like a high school student body thing.

And had just about as much substance.

re: #181 Davida

Oh my.

This is the same feeling I had during the election.

It felt like a high school student body thing.

And had just about as much substance.

Interesting. My brother had the same observation as you.

tikkun olam as practiced by reform and reconstionism is liberalism not torah jewish belief.

at this point or maybe in the next couple of generations we really will not know if reform jews are jews or not. At this point ortho rabbi's when doing a wedding ask about the parents, & grand parents of the bride and groom.

reform by changing 'who is a jew', the rules of conversion and not giving jewish divorces have created the division were we will not know if reform members are jewish or not..

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

I told people that Obama repudiated his pretty words to AIPAC the next day, and the reaction was either a blank look accompanied by, "I didn't hear that (unspoken corollary; so therefore it must not be true)," or else "Well, of course he had to reverse his position because of political pressure from other constituencies."

I would try to point out that a) if he could reverse himself that easily, he could not be trusted no matter what he said, and b) there is no indication that Jews/AIPAC/Israel was not itself one of those "other constituencies" he was merely placating. Neither of these statements would make any impression whatsoever.

It was like talking to the people in The Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Good analogy. So many people have become "pod people." Brains not working.

re: #177 taxfreekiller

liberal jews have about the same feeling for ortho jews as liberal christians have for the so called religious right.

re: #187 buzzsawmonkey

The liberal Jews know what is correct and they insist on doing the opposite. They should feel shame.

The Arab initiative includes a right of return (via UNGA Resolution 194 of December 1948), which would mean the end of the Jewish state. That is not the plan that Obama endorses, because it includes a right of return.

What Dennis Ross did NOT say is whether Obama will back the Saudi plan (which is the same as the Arab initiative, before a UNGAR 194 clause was added to it).

No American president will support a two-state solution where both states are Arab. It doesn't make sense.

But the Saudi plan has other objectionable aspects:
(1) the expulsion of 500,000 Jews from east Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (which would be a human rights disaster);
(2) the shrinking of Israel to the 1949 Armistice Lines (which would give Israel a neck 9 miles wide, and which would put much of the Israeli population in firing range of rockets and missiles, and which would make Israel a more attractive target for a nuke attack from Iran because there would be more Jewish population closer to the two ground zeros -- at Tel Aviv and Haifa -- and fewer survivors).

re: #171 WrathofG-d

Chabad is also in a lot of places as are Discovery Seminars(if you are Jewish). If you aren't Jewish, perhaps look for advertising for Noachide congregations.

This is what we're in for during the next four years. Advisors issuing contradictory statements, Obama claiming he never said anything, and remaining above the fray while US policy and integrity implodes. Bill Ayers must be smiling.

test

Good critique of fantasist, Uzi Mahnaimi:

[Link: www.yourish.com...]