Next trick they need to do : Outlaw all the Neo Nazis

The donkey?

Haven't seen any in windows around here

One symbol down.....? to go!

If all neo-Nazis are outlawed, only outlaws will be neo-Nazis.
/works for me!

On the one hand, Germany's history says that we should applaud this sort of regulation. On the other hand, it reminds us that the Germans are not entirely confident that it cannot happen again.

I guess my Celtic cross pendant will remain in my jewelry box indefinately.

re: #3 midwestgak

After we started paying attention to this shit, I saw the same design on a shirt out at one of the retailers in the area. I mentioned it to the guy at the cash register, but I don't know how seriously he took it.

re: #7 loppyd

I guess my Celtic cross pendant will remain in my jewelry box indefinately.

Just stay out of Germany. Problem solved ;)

Its the Zodiac.

re: #6 TigerHawk

On the one hand, Germany's history says that we should applaud this sort of regulation. On the other hand, it reminds us that the Germans are not entirely confident that it cannot happen again.

I'm no longer entirely confident that fascism can't happen here.

You can outlaw the symbols, you can outlaw the name, you can outlaw whatever you want but it wont change their heart.

Bet they're pissed over at GoV.

re: #11 Tigger2005

Just wait until conservative talk radio gets banned.

I understand the repulsion against this particular group but I am not familiar with this cross - what does it signify?

So, what does that prove Charles...

(Channeling Robert Spencer)

Some people think that all the sports themed clothing with HH (Heil Hitler?) or 88 (H is the 8th letter of the alphabet) are secret neo nazi 'inside jokes'.

Sadly, neo nazis have hijacked an ancient Celtic Christian symbol.

All jokes aside, I find this course of action disturbing. I have no love for Neo-Nazis, but implementing speech codes and outlawing symbols is going overboard. It's an attempt to hide the problem, not deal with it.

re: #17 Buck

Helley Hansen?

re: #15 wright1

I understand the repulsion against this particular group but I am not familiar with this cross - what does it signify?

Inbreeding

Charles,

At this point, you probably don't need any further proof that that "cletic Cross" symbol is used by Neo-Nazis and like groups but...

Evidence One

Evidence Two (middle row, last on right)

/snicker

re: #9 Hard Right

Just stay out of Germany. Problem solved ;)

That shouldn't be a problem....it's not high on my list of places to see before I die.

re: #11 Tigger2005

Of course it can happen here. It may happen here. These next four years are going to be an interesting ride. In the Chinese curse sense of the word "interesting".

Seriously, if that is the case, there are hundreds of cemeteries throughout Europe with old gravestones bearing this cross. Will there be open season on de-nazification of these graveyards? What about the Maltese Cross--will that be the next to go? When will all crosses have to go?

I don't like the neo-nazis one damn bit, but this is silly--and a little disturbing.

Thank you, Charles fot the hat tip and here is the court ruling

article 3 says, that it is not banned if it is in a direct context with religion, e.g. in churches or graveyards as part of a tombstone.

re: #24 loppyd

That shouldn't be a problem....it's not high on my list of places to see before I die.

Well, they do have a habit of "visiting" other countries...

re: #24 loppyd

That shouldn't be a problem....it's not high on my list of places to see before I die.

I've never been to Fenway. That's on my list.

re: #7 loppyd

If it's gold , Just have it melted down and reshaped into a nice regular cross , If it were me I would have the jeweler fashion me a tiny golden manolin ....preferably A Gibson F5 with wings .

lol

re: #20 NYCHardhat

Helley Hansen?

I know it is crazy.

So much for "hugs and kisses"

Outlawing the symbol is absurd. It means that even making a school poster about it's history is improper - right?

Expose the cockroaches to sunlight - don't lock the cupboard door.

re: #28 Hard Right

Well, they do have a habit of "visiting" other countries...

And we have a habit of showing them the exit.

re: #14 NYCHardhat

Just wait until conservative talk radio gets banned.

I've been thinking about that.
Will 'the view' dump baher and put malkin in?
fairness, you know

re: #11 Tigger2005

I'm no longer entirely confident that fascism can't happen here.

Ironically it might come from directions we might not have anticipated. The Prop 8 rally depicted behavior by gay-rights activists that is the type of thuggery we might expect from fascist ideologues. In truth, the tactics on the left are often little more than shout-downs of their adversary.

re: #31 Buck

I guess I can't wear my NY Ranger Eric Lindros jersey.

I'm no longer entirely confident that fascism can't happen here.

If the economic crisis deepens appreciably between now and Inauguration Day, Barack Obama is going to be able to get pretty much anything he wants from Congress. It will be interesting to see what he asks for, and I am waiting until then to leap to a conclusion...

re: #27 zuckerlilly

Thank you, Charles fot the hat tip and here is the court ruling

article 3 says, that it is not banned if it is in a direct context with religion, e.g. in churches or graveyards as part of a tombstone.

Thanks for assuaging my particular concern. However, there is the bit about say people wearing chains, rings, etc. Where does that line get drawn?

re: #7 loppyd

I guess my Celtic cross pendant will remain in my jewelry box indefinately.

A celtic cross is slightly different from the odin's cross. The odin's cross is symmetrical. It is possible that there are symmetrical celtic crosses, but it would be rare.

re: #35 Eowyn2

I'd quit my job to watch her on daytime TV.

re: #29 Nevergiveup

I've never been to Fenway. That's on my list.

You'll feel some magic.

re: #26 calcajun

Actually, Gates of Vienna was bitching about my Iron Cross one day after this cropped up for the first time. They ain't very bright. Nor particularly creative.

re: #40 David IV of Georgia

A celtic cross is slightly different from the odin's cross. The odin's cross is symmetrical. It is possible that there are symmetrical celtic crosses, but it would be rare.

I know, but it's still creepy....

re: #26 calcajun

Seriously, if that is the case, there are hundreds of cemeteries throughout Europe with old gravestones bearing this cross. Will there be open season on de-nazification of these graveyards? What about the Maltese Cross--will that be the next to go? When will all crosses have to go?

I don't like the neo-nazis one damn bit, but this is silly--and a little disturbing.

I think Charles' point here is not whether one agrees with Germany's freedom of speech laws (or lack of it), but the fact that Germany DOES recognize this as a facist/neo-nazi/nationalist symbol, which a number of European nationalist groups have been using, but denying any racist connections.

re: #36 wright1

Ironically it might come from directions we might not have anticipated. The Prop 8 rally depicted behavior by gay-rights activists that is the type of thuggery we might expect from fascist ideologues. In truth, the tactics on the left are often little more than shout-downs of their adversary.

That's another bothersome thing--berating the opposition until it just gives up. The ideas have not won, the bullying has.

re: #4 WrathofG-d

One symbol down.....? to go!

The cloverleaf is a very popular white power symbol in the prison system. The Aryan Bortherhood uses it, iirc.

re: #39 calcajun

I've seen this symbol as a tattoo design. Kinda hard to make someone take off their tattoo.

re: #42 loppyd

Fenway is a must see. I wanted to see Wrigley as well, but Chicago, is well, Obama land.

re: #30 Twenglish

If it's gold , Just have it melted down and reshaped into a nice regular cross , If it were me I would have the jeweler fashion me a tiny golden manolin ....preferably A Gibson F5 with wings .

lol

It is silver....but that pendant sounds nice. :)

re: #30 Twenglish

If it's gold , Just have it melted down and reshaped into a nice regular cross , If it were me I would have the jeweler fashion me a tiny golden manolin ....preferably A Gibson F5 with wings .

lol

what if it is an heirloom. brought from Ireland during the famines, now residing with loppy?

re: #47 Spiny Norman

Aryan Brotherhood.

Sheesh.

I'd rather seem the do something about spraypainted swastickas in Jewish cemeteries

I've been to Belgium many times , it's just south of the border to me ....and each time I go there, I can't help but notice the messy streets , and highways , the trash layiing around that will never be picked up .and the driving chaoson the roads , which brings to mind that just by the looks of the photo of the outside of the dilapidated Leeuw of Flanders , it must be a real Sh**hole on the inside

re: #36 wright1

I decided to re read Fahrenheit 451, and finished it yesterday. What struck me was that every oppressive action that Government took (burning books the most obvious) was to protect the citizens from their natural inclinations towards thinking outside acceptable parameters and to ensure their own happiness. (their being "all"). Although ultimately they weren't actually learning (the moral of the book) they were content, and happy. This was the point of banning books, to ensure that their minds didn't stray towards alternative views that the Gov considered "fantasy", and distractions that just made people sad.

re: #41 NYCHardhat

I'd quit my job to watch her on daytime TV.

but you know that they already think that the view is fair and balanced.

re: #49 NYCHardhat

Fenway is a must see. I wanted to see Wrigley as well, but Chicago, is well, Obama land.

I know you need a passport to get into CA, will they be introducing that rule for Illinois now also?

re: #51 Eowyn2

what if it is an heirloom. brought from Ireland during the famines, now residing with loppy?

I did buy it in Ireland. Back in the 90's. And it was a famine for me because the food was G.A.! LOL

Symbol over substance-
the Nazis choose a new symbol, then what?

re: #57 taxfreekiller

That should be a T-shirt.

No one had better take their Jeep Compass SUV over there then.

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

K

pimf..note to self-- drink beer before typing and use chell specker

re: #53 greenmiler

I'd rather seem the do something about spraypainted swastickas in Jewish cemeteries

Well, that won't happen, for a variety of reasons.

re: #58 Eowyn2

/Yeah, crazy women on TV is so balanced.

While they're at it: how about outlawing the hammer and sickle? And Che Guevara T-Shirts?

re: #69 Noah's Arrrgh

While they're at it: how about outlawing the hammer and sickle? And Che Guevara T-Shirts?

If they did that, then the Chosen One's minions would have nothing to wear. Be fair.

Paging Robert Spencer!
Paging Pamela Geller!
Paging..... aw hell, forget it.

Preventing another nightmare where government punishes those with unpopular thoughts and ideas by giving the government the power to punish those with unpopular thoughts and ideas. Are we trying to put out a fire with gasoline?

I was going to say "Odin's cross banned in Germany; Thor unavailable for comment" but that would sound facetious.

re: #69 Noah's Arrrgh

And the Obama superman t shirts.

re: #69 Noah's Arrrgh

While they're at it: how about outlawing the hammer and sickle? And Che Guevara T-Shirts?

They'd rather outlaw the anti-Che Guevara t- shirts

re: #19 rabidsquirrel

All jokes aside, I find this course of action disturbing. I have no love for Neo-Nazis, but implementing speech codes and outlawing symbols is going overboard. It's an attempt to hide the problem, not deal with it.

I agree. If they are going to ban this what, is/possibly going to be next. I know this line of thought may seem irrational but to take a Celtic Cross and ban it just because it is used by the nutty neo's is just as irrational?

re: #60 buzzsawmonkey

But they could have the design converted into pie.

Which the government would then be demanding a piece of. ;)

I'm not so sure I'm on board with banning much of anything.

If a bunch of fascist assholes want to get together and they feel the need to advertise their hate and discontent with some symbol, then so be it. Advertising that you're a fascist asshole shouldn't be a crime. If anything, advertising that fact should be encouraged. Banning symbols only makes their hate go incognito. As it is, with their stupid cross on the door, I know to skip that bar, restaurant, etc.

re: #74 Capitalist Tool

They'd rather outlaw the anti-Che Guevara t- shirts

As they say over on Black-Five, don't be a Dou-Che.

re: #55 Twenglish

I've been to Belgium many times , it's just south of the border to me ....and each time I go there, I can't help but notice the messy streets , and highways , the trash layiing around that will never be picked up .and the driving chaoson the roads , which brings to mind that just by the looks of the photo of the outside of the dilapidated Leeuw of Flanders , it must be a real Sh**hole on the inside

It does look like a dive, doesn't it?

re: #78 USCMSNE

I'm not so sure I'm on board with banning much of anything.

Carry on.

I do hate to see when common symbols/words are co-opted by various groups. Pardon me while I go "don my gay apparel" in preparation for caroling practice./

open registration?

re: #59 Nevergiveup

I know you need a passport to get into CA, will they be introducing that rule for Illinois now also?

You don't need a passport to get into Illinois but a lobotomy is strongly recommended.

I like that symbol, aesthetically speaking. Had no idea it was being used by Neo Nazis.

re: #75 Steve

I agree. If they are going to ban this what, is/possibly going to be next. I know this line of thought may seem irrational but to take a Celtic Cross and ban it just because it is used by the nutty neo's is just as irrational?

I'm a Celt.
And that vile thing is NOT a Celtic cross.

Please get it straight, folks.

re: #7 loppyd

I guess my Celtic cross pendant will remain in my jewelry box indefinately.

Shoot. I have Celtic crosses all over my house. Concrete ones....one is 5 ft tall. I've got a 9 footer in the garage waiting to be installed in the yard.

I would stay away from Odin's cross, but that's as far as I'm willing to let the Nazi's go. Somebody doesn't like it....I'll let them know where to go.
/rant not directed at you ;-)

OT

DOW dropped 444.99 points to 7552. It has lost about 43% year to date.

I don't know if this is due to the market being upset that there is as yet no auto deal, or being upset that there might be. Take your pick.

Crude is at $49.62

10 years treasuries at 3.01%

Gold at $748.70

re: #62 Capitalist Tool

Symbol over substance- the Nazis choose a new symbol, then what?

Does anyone see the point of this thread. People supporting groups like BV and the folks at GoV who have been saying that this symbol has nothing to do with racism, have been proven WRONG.

Even Robert Spencer has had no problem with European nationalist groups with fascist tendencies as long as they support anti-jihad politics.

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

I think Charles' point here is not whether one agrees with Germany's freedom of speech laws (or lack of it), or if one symbol could just be replaced with another symbol, but the fact that Germany DOES recognize this as a facist/neo-nazi/nationalist symbol, which a number of European nationalist groups have been using, but denying any racist connections.

And these groups that have been using the symbols have denied any racist/fascist leanings and are getting a lot of support from Americans and others for their anti-jihad stance.

Ok, get it?

re: #74 Capitalist Tool

They'd rather outlaw the anti-Che Guevara t- shirts

They can have my Mickey Ché t-shirt when the cut it off my cold dead body.

;^)

re: #84 Crusty

You don't need a passport to get into Illinois but a lobotomy is strongly recommended.

Depends if you are upstate or downstate.

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

You point out the obvious...try more nuance next time. ;)

re: #51 Eowyn2

Keep it in the box ...my bad !

It would seem to me that if you are a real Celt then you should wear it , it has nothing to do with the Neo Nazis in that sense. .

I have the same problem with my Georgia Flag, it has a Rebel flag in it , and when I fly it proudly next my American flag on the 4th here in Europe , I can feel the dagger like stares from people walking by , but hey , I'm no confederate Klansman , I just love my state and my country . .

And the Eurobilly's love to tell me it's Racist ....you know like I should don a white sheet and stand there in front of it burning a cross .

now thats just ridiculous ....

Outlawing symbols won't do any real harm to the Neo-Nazis. Such action is very dangerous since it limits freedom of speech. Neo-Nazis should be exposed as the evil bastards they are and cast out from the society.We sould deny these ***holes the attention they crave for.

re: #34 rabidsquirrel

And we have a habit of showing them the exit.

Darn skippy.

My take on the cross-banning:

1. This is a totally bone-headed move. Now the court has just turned the so-called Odin's Cross into a "symbol of resistance." As they say, "What is forbidden...is attractive."

2. I'd have been more impressed with this decision if the judges had also banned the Star and Crescent as well. But, hey, why would the judges want to do that? They'd actually have to show some courage, but banning the S&C could get them killed, couldn't it?

/snark

I always think of a Celtic cross as looking more like this.

What 's we see on DeWinter's bookshelf is an Odin's cross, which is not Celtic but Norse...and is a Pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol.

re: #86 Irish Rose

I'm a Celt.
And that vile thing is NOT a Celtic cross.

Please get it straight, folks.

Yep - doing a google image search for Celtic cross and Odin's cross definitely makes "Odin's cross" the better description.

Whatever happened to good ol' government funded propaganda?

I can see a nice 30 second to one minute commercial on prime-time television about the symbol, what it means and who uses it.

Banning it only helps the cancer hide itself, what it can't stand is publicity!

re: #70 Guanxi88

If they did that, then the Chosen One's minions would have nothing to wear. Be fair.

i've seen some of his minions. please keep them clothed

I really don't understand how some hardcore Jewish bloggers, like Pamela, could be out there supporting these guys. Is she even still supporting them? I haven't read her since this whole thing began so long ago. But if I were here, I'd choke down my pride and start apologizing and saying how wrong I was.

OT

I got a 76% on the civics quiz and I totally blew three questions in hindsight. Did a little better than I thought.

Later all, time to go walk the black lab along the American. Right after I go pay $1850 for gettin my Jeep's tranny fixed. Ouch!

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

You point out the obvious...try more nuance next time. ;)

Well, it seems it's not so obvious to some of the Lizards here. We are getting posts stating that the symbol doesn't matter, Germany has a problem with freedom of speech, "I like that symbol, I had no idea it has something to do with neo-nazi's" and so on.

None of those comments address the purpose of this thread and what point Charles is trying to make.

It's no wonder Spencer has no problem with these groups. Now I can see than many do not understand the actual problem.

re: #94 Twenglish

Keep it in the box ...my bad !

It would seem to me that if you are a real Celt then you should wear it , it has nothing to do with the Neo Nazis in that sense. .

I have the same problem with my Georgia Flag, it has a Rebel flag in it , and when I fly it proudly next my American flag on the 4th here in Europe , I can feel the dagger like stares from people walking by , but hey , I'm no confederate Klansman , I just love my state and my country . .

And the Eurobilly's love to tell me it's Racist ....you know like I should don a white sheet and stand there in front of it burning a cross .

now thats just ridiculous ....

what part of eu?

Er, if i were her, not here. =)

re: #95 Twilight

Outlawing symbols won't do any real harm to the Neo-Nazis. Such action is very dangerous since it limits freedom of speech. Neo-Nazis should be exposed as the evil bastards they are and cast out from the society.We sould deny these ***holes the attention they crave for.

Please see my re: #90 Walter L. Newton, you are totally missing the point here.

re: #19 rabidsquirrel

All jokes aside, I find this course of action disturbing. I have no love for Neo-Nazis, but implementing speech codes and outlawing symbols is going overboard. It's an attempt to hide the problem, not deal with it.

Yes you are spot on. These symbols are of course disturbing, but by banning stuff, and banning opinions, you are no better than the fascists were in the past. It's the same with the Quran. I like my fellow Dutchman Geert Wilders, but I don't agree with him to ban the book. It's the nazi's who burnt books they didn't like in the 1930's, I hope we won't do the same in our democracy. Voltaire is still right when he said "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Of course hate speech and violence needs to be punished if fascists or other people commit such crimes, but banning symbols don't make any sense imho.

re: #97 Mark1957

2. I'd have been more impressed with this decision if the judges had also banned the Star and Crescent as well. But, hey, why would the judges want to do that? They'd actually have to show some courage, but banning the S&C could get them killed, couldn't it?

/snark

Well, you see, that last one is the chosen banner of a fairly substantial portion of residents of the European continent. And, as you point out, you can't really do anything to irritate these folks. They vote, they reproduce - unlike their neighbors - and they're organized. Bottom line, they're just too strong to do anything about.

So, to re-cap: A symbol drawn from the heritage of Western Europe, recently adopted and perverted by a bunch of boneheads, is banned except in a religious context. A warrior's banner that is incorporated into an alien religion whose communicants have expressed a desire to spread their faith by force of law and point of sword, perfectly permissible.

re: #80 Spiny Norman

It's a deep dive , you may need a pressure suit just to walk inside .....

It Sounds like a good place to drop off a noisy trashy busload of British Hooligans though ....

re: #92 3 wood

Depends if you are upstate or downstate.

And if you're going to Wrigley Field it's mandatory.

OT:

Fannie, Freddie to halt foreclosures over holidays

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac said late Thursday that they will temporarily suspend foreclosures on occupied homes while the companies work on a streamlined modification program expected out in December. Fannie and Freddie will not foreclose on occupied homes from Nov. 26 to Jan. 9. Fannie said it will reach out to 10,000 affected borrowers and Freddie will reach out to 6,000 affected borrowers.

My guess is that this suspension will be eventually extended to January 20th, and loan work out arrangements will be reached with many.

We had a bunch of dweebs on our shores trying to chastise displays of patriotism and symbolically outlaw the wearing of a US flag lapel pin and even got the president-elect to go along with their idiocy...

In German they call it "das Keltenkreuz". As far as I know, a Celtic cross looks like this.

But it can also look like this.

What the ruling says is that "The prohibition applies even if no connection with the unconstitutional neo-Nazi organization is proved" and that [the cross] "is also seen as a harmless symbol, particularly in cultural and historical or religious connotations."

So, while the fascist connection is undeniable, if I were a proud Irish Catholic visiting Hamburg and walked down the street with a Celtic cross pendant around my neck, I could be tried, convicted and punished. It is the equivalent of banning any and all display of the moon and crescent, on the theory that everyone who does so is a potential terrorist or inciting to terrorism.

This is where politically correct thought-crime legislation leads in the end. I hope we don't get such laws here in the states.

If the wearer is a fascist, so much the better for identification purposes. If it's worn for religious or historical reasons, it should be easy to determine that.

One man's Odin's cross is another woman's Celtic heritage.

This is not good.

2 Weeks ago in Russia.....

....and in Spain

......and in Portugal

......and in Hungary

re: #98 Ringo the Gringo

I always think of a Celtic cross as looking more like this.

What 's we see on DeWinter's bookshelf is an Odin's cross, which is not Celtic but Norse...and is a Pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol.

You are correct.

I'm not ecstatic about this symbol, or any other dual-use symbol being banned because it has been adopted by the bad guys. Ban this one, and they will be sure to find another symbol to hijack.

re: #105 Eowyn2

The part that has the best healthcare in the EU overall , and you can even wear wooden shoes in the doctors office ...although I wouldn't advise it .

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Please see my re: #90 Walter L. Newton, you are totally missing the point here.

So if our home grown neo-nazis adopt the American flag as one of their symbols, should we avoid using that any more?

How many symbols must they coopt before you fight back?

re: #117 Alouette

I'm not ecstatic about this symbol, or any other dual-use symbol being banned because it has been adopted by the bad guys. Ban this one, and they will be sure to find another symbol to hijack.

Like the Hindu swastika?

Please note that I haven't written one word that supports banning symbols, because I don't support banning symbols.

But this news from Germany puts the lie to the claims of people who've been trying to dismiss the significance of that symbol in so many VB-related situations.

re: #91 Spiny Norman

They can have my Mickey Ché t-shirt when the cut it off my cold dead body.

;^)

As much as that trivializes Dou-Che, I don't like that it sullies Mickey, as I am somewhat personally attached to the Mouse.
And yes, that is my forearm pictured there.

re: #120 Perplexed

Like the Hindu swastika?

Roman salutes?

These dumbass supremacists will just use another symbol or no symbol. I realize there is a certain power in this kind of fetishism, but you can't legislate it away. It just makes the people in charge seem petty and vindictive.

re: #86 Irish Rose

Celtic Cross

OT:

Gore won't take 'formal role' in new admininstration

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Former Vice President Al Gore said Thursday he would "not be taking a formal role" in the administration of President-elect Barack Obama, but that he has been in contact with Obama and would do whatever he could to help him. Shifting to renewable energy could help pave the way out of the current global economic crisis, Gore said a conference of economic and phanthropic leaders. "The climate crisis and the economic crisis all have the common thread of our ridiculous over-dependence on carbon fuels," he said. Some had speculated Gore could take on a new role of "climate czar" in the upcoming administration

re: #119 eschew_obfuscation

So if our home grown neo-nazis adopt the American flag as one of their symbols, should we avoid using that any more?

How many symbols must they coopt before you fight back?

Fact is, eschew_o, we already had/have an attempt by the left to equate the American flag with fascism...

re: #123 David IV of Georgia

Roman salutes?

Yep, many things get taken over because they are perceived as being cool.

re: #112 3 wood

With the housing market in the shitter, thanks in part to the very institutions doing this gesture, I guess Freddie and Fannie figure getting even reduced mortgage payments is better than no money by doing foreclosures. Those who should never have been given loans get propped up while those who do the right thing are going to get punished.

re: #126 3 wood

OT:

Gore won't take 'formal role' in new admininstration

Gore doesn't want anyone looking at his finances...

re: #127 Capitalist Tool

Fact is, eschew_o, we already had/have an attempt by the left to equate the American flag with fascism...

Right you are, but I'm not about to stop using it.

re: #128 Perplexed

Or because they are all part of the same Amalekite blood stream & Someone is trying to send a clear message.

re: #98 Ringo the Gringo

I always think of a Celtic cross as looking more like this.

What 's we see on DeWinter's bookshelf is an Odin's cross, which is not Celtic but Norse...and is a Pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol.

Exactly. It's the Pagan symbol the neo-Nazis have adopted, just like their ideological forebears did with the Swastika.

#89,

OT

DOW dropped 444.99 points to 7552. It has lost about 43% year to date.

I don't know if this is due to the market being upset that there is as yet no auto deal, or being upset that there might be. Take your pick.

Crude is at $49.62

10 years treasuries at 3.01%

Gold at $748.70

Whoa, let's do the math. His Majesty still isn't going to be crowned for another 9 weeks, so at the rate the market is tanking, by January 20, 2009, President Dances-with-Hillary may well be confronted with a 4000 Dow, crude below $40/bbl., and gold at $2k an oz.

In other words, pre-revolutionary economic conditions. Damn, I am really, really glad I've already bought my Yugo SKS, Bersa Thunder 9, and lots of ammo.

re: #129 FurryOldGuyJeans

With the housing market in the shitter, thanks in part to the very institutions doing this gesture, I guess Freddie and Fannie figure getting even reduced mortgage payments is better than no money by doing foreclosures. Those who should never have been given loans get propped up while those who do the right thing are going to get punished.

We are soooo screwed...

re: #121 Charles

Please note that I haven't written one word that supports banning symbols, because I don't.

But this news from Germany puts the lie to the claims of people who've been trying to dismiss the significance of that symbol in so many VB-related situations.

But, begging His Reptilian Majesty's pardon for speaking without being addressed, didn't everybody kinda know already that these jokers use these symbols as a way of winking at each other and the world, and laying claim to European history? I mean, whenever I see a particular symbol favored by unsavory reprobates, I sort of notice that they're using it. Anybody who can see a FRAKTUR "SIG" on the sign of a bar whose window sports an "Odin's Cross" cannot possibly be so freaking stupid as to not know that these guys dig the Fuhrer.

I crawl away now beneath my rock, I who am dust and ashes before the great one.

He is Autrian by birth, acquired the US citizenship and yet

GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER: I love the green Gestapo

...I’m telling you, talking about running a house environmentally sound, she is like the Gestapo in our house when it comes to the environment. It’s fantastic to see that, the way she educates those kids and makes them also environmentalists. I love that.

I sure don't like the most gullible of all, children to be indoctrinated. Yet, exactly this seems to please the Governor.
Yuck!

re: #135 Capitalist Tool

We are soooo screwed...

The best we can hope for is a Congressional Kiss and LOTS of lube.

re: #119 eschew_obfuscation

So if our home grown neo-nazis adopt the American flag as one of their symbols, should we avoid using that any more?
How many symbols must they coopt before you fight back?

Look. I am not saying this German ruling is good. Charles is not saying that this German ruling is good. And I wouldn't agree with anyone here that accepted this ruling as good.

But that is not the reason Charles posted this story. We have European nationalist groups that are anti-jihad. We have a whole lot of American blogs and bloggers who support these groups.

Charles (and others) have discovered that these groups are really a cover for neo-nazi and fascist politics, no different than the national socialist groups of long ago.

The symbol has been used by these groups to identify then as national socialist and fascists.

But they have been denying that the symbol has anything to do with and racist politics.

Now, Germany is saying that the symbol does have something to do with national socialistic politics and all the stuff that goes along with it.

That's the ONLY PURPOSE OF POSTING THIS STORY. Can you understand that?

re: #137 callahan23

He is Autrian by birth, acquired the US citizenship and yet

I sure don't like the most gullible of all, children to be indoctrinated. Yet, exactly this seems to please the Governor.
Yuck!

Arnold should really make an effort to stay away from Nazi imagery.

re: #121 Charles

Please note that I haven't written one word that supports banning symbols, because I don't support banning symbols.

But this news from Germany puts the lie to the claims of people who've been trying to dismiss the significance of that symbol in so many VB-related situations.

That's what the fuck I have been saying along with this thread, but it seems a hell of a lot of Lizards are totally missing the point (or want to ignore the point).

Yes, I'm getting a bit mad here.

re: #115 WrathofG-d

2 Weeks ago in Russia.....

....and in Spain

......and in Portugal

......and in Hungary

definately assholes.

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

That's what the fuck I have been saying along with this thread, but it seems a hell of a lot of Lizards are totally missing the point (or want to ignore the point).

Yes, I'm getting a bit mad here.

Obtuse is not just for Leftoids any more. ;)

BTW, for the record, I am against banning these symbols as well.
But...

...I find it very difficult to justify saying that Germany, as a Democratic society, should allow them against their own better judgement. Just as I think it right and proper for these symbols to be banned in Israel as well. In my opinion, it will take a few more generations at least before history is old enough for people to start coming out of that phase in those countries, and rightly so.

It's easy for me to criticize while sitting here in the states. I think I'll defer to the wisdom of the German courts on this contentious issue over there.

I do understand the freedom of speech sentiment, of course. I'm on that side. I just think this is one of those situations that calls for exceptional circumstances outside of normal rules.

re: #86 Irish Rose

I'm a Celt.
And that vile thing is NOT a Celtic cross.

Please get it straight, folks.

Sorry about that. I was ust using what is stated in the article. Sinne there is a difference in there symbol and a Celtic Cross a link showing what the difference is would be nice. Again my apologizes.

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

That's what the fuck I have been saying along with this thread, but it seems a hell of a lot of Lizards are totally missing the point (or want to ignore the point).

Yes, I'm getting a bit mad here.

WALTER ,,,,,, MEDS ,,,,,, STAT !

re: #7 loppyd
You're good, as long as you don't wear it in public in Germany.

re: #89 3 wood

Actually NYMX crude is at 48.90 at 16:40 off 9.61% today. Gasoline is 99.99 -9.67% at 16:36

The energy market has been tracking the stock market very closely during the day.

At the moment, the futures on the stocks are up a small amount. S&P up 5.10, DJIA up 68.

Today/tomorrow is a minor witch. Lots of options expirations and such. If anyone wonders how much the hedge funds were behind pushing prices around, the past couple days are an example. Right now, you got redemption city going on. A year or so ago, you were not cool unless you had asset allocated some of your money into a hedge fund.

I have not seen a "buyers strike" like this before in my investing experience except for the short period after the crash of 87.

re: #136 Guanxi88

But, begging His Reptilian Majesty's pardon for speaking without being addressed, didn't everybody kinda know already that these jokers use these symbols as a way of winking at each other and the world, ...

No. Have you been keeping up with the threads about GoV and Atlas and Robert Spencer et al?

re: #137 callahan23

In the same wake:

Green Party admits leading activists on BNP list

See also my spinoff link.

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

No. Have you been keeping up with the threads about GoV and Atlas and Robert Spencer et al?

He's new.

re: #121 Charles

IMHO Charles these symbols in the context of Europe and its history of the last 100 years can be very dangerous indeed & I can completely see why the more sensible people do ban them.

re: #151 FurryOldGuyJeans

He's new.

When he signed up, he claimed to be a lurker of a long time.

re: #146 sattv4u2

WALTER ,,,,,, MEDS ,,,,,, STAT !

Code Blue....

re: #120 Perplexed

Like the Hindu swastika?

Several years ago, an Indian co-worker posted a wedding invitation on the bulletin board in the break room. It was kind of freaky to see the swastika used as a decoration, but there is a significant difference: the nazi swastika is tilted 45 degrees, and the Hindu swastika is upright, and has four dots inside.

re: #11 Tigger2005

I'm no longer entirely confident that fascism can't happen here.

It has happened here. You can start with the Wilson administration, and then take a close look at the New Deal.

re: #121 Charles

I agree Charles ,

it's not really about the symbol , it's the behavior of the person(s) who use it as a standard to mark their behavior , Mostly these ancient symbols have been stolen for ulterior purposes.

The Swastika for example , is an old Egyptian symbol of some sort , and has been around for eons , but it didn't obtain it's infamy until recently when the third Reich stole it for their evil purposes

re: #152 Ojoe

I'd rather see the symbols people support. That way I know who to avoid and who to buy a scotch for.

re: #114 Cato the Elder

In German they call it "das Keltenkreuz". As far as I know, a Celtic cross looks like this.

But it can also look like this.

What the ruling says is that "The prohibition applies even if no connection with the unconstitutional neo-Nazi organization is proved" and that [the cross] "is also seen as a harmless symbol, particularly in cultural and historical or religious connotations."

So, while the fascist connection is undeniable, if I were a proud Irish Catholic visiting Hamburg and walked down the street with a Celtic cross pendant around my neck, I could be tried, convicted and punished. It is the equivalent of banning any and all display of the moon and crescent, on the theory that everyone who does so is a potential terrorist or inciting to terrorism.

This is where politically correct thought-crime legislation leads in the end. I hope we don't get such laws here in the states.

If the wearer is a fascist, so much the better for identification purposes. If it's worn for religious or historical reasons, it should be easy to determine that.

One man's Odin's cross is another woman's Celtic heritage.

This is not good.

The banned symbol is a Sun Cross, an ancient pagan symbol that is used by neo-nazis and white nationalists to represent the Aryan race.

The Celtic cross is a Christian symbol.

Here's how to tell the difference between the two:
The Christian cross shows arms outside the circle, while the sun cross is totally surrounded by its circle.

re: #51 Eowyn2

what if it is an heirloom. brought from Ireland during the famines, now residing with loppy?

Serious. Why should people with celtic ancestry give up their stuff because their symbols have been hijacked?

re: #153 Walter L. Newton

When he signed up, he claimed to be a lurker of a long time.

I know, I remember, but lurking doesn't automatically lend one a good breadth of understanding of the topics here.

And even the nay-sayers here have been thrown some meat to chew on as to the pervasiveness of the infiltration. In time most will see it.

re: #160 Irish Rose

The banned symbol is a Sun Cross, an ancient pagan symbol that is used by neo-nazis and white nationalists to represent the Aryan race.

The Celtic cross is a Christian symbol.

Here's how to tell the difference between the two:
The Christian cross shows arms outside the circle, while the sun cross is totally surrounded by its circle. IDIOTS

Accuracy in reporting!

re: #162 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know, I remember, but lurking doesn't automatically lend one a good breadth of understanding of the topics here.

And even the nay-sayers here have been thrown some meat to chew on as to the pervasiveness of the infiltration. In time most will see it.

Ok.

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

Look. I am not saying this German ruling is good. Charles is not saying that this German ruling is good. And I wouldn't agree with anyone here that accepted this ruling as good.

But that is not the reason Charles posted this story. We have European nationalist groups that are anti-jihad. We have a whole lot of American blogs and bloggers who support these groups.

Charles (and others) have discovered that these groups are really a cover for neo-nazi and fascist politics, no different than the national socialist groups of long ago.

The symbol has been used by these groups to identify then as national socialist and fascists.

But they have been denying that the symbol has anything to do with and racist politics.

Now, Germany is saying that the symbol does have something to do with national socialistic politics and all the stuff that goes along with it.

That's the ONLY PURPOSE OF POSTING THIS STORY. Can you understand that?

Sure, I understand that. And I'm aware that neither you nor Charles support such bans.

I just think we should take the use of such symbols in context with the words and actions of those who employ them and not solely at face value. They're an indication that the user could have fascist tendencies which, in this case they do, but we only know that by virtue of other evidence....not only their use of the symbol.

I'm now not sure we actually disagree here. It just looked to me as if you were implying that anyone's use of Odin's cross means they're fascists.

Maybe I misinferred....

re: #157 Twenglish

It also was a very prominent Jewish symbol IIRC, irony of ironies.

#133,

Funny thing about that "pagan symbol"--Christian churches also incorporated it into their architecture. For example, a few years back, some guys doing some repairs to the entrance of one of our local Catholic churches discovered a large floor mosiac prominently incorporating counter-clockwise swastikas. The thing had probably been covered over sometime in the 1930's or 40's. Nobody could decide what to do about the mosaic so, in the end, they just did the "committee thing" and covered it up again.

Check this out--I'm surprised the Canadian HRC's haven't set their sights on this place yet:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #62 Capitalist Tool

Symbol over substance-
the Nazis choose a new symbol, then what?

They could take it to the absurd. As each new symbol gets banned, they create a new one that is common to some group and get it banned and keep working their way down the list to the obscure and inane.

re: #166 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Swastika a Jewish symbol?

NO!

So what happens when the Northern Ireland football (soccer) team comes to play?

I can has Icon test.....

re: #166 FurryOldGuyJeans

It also was a very prominent Jewish symbol IIRC, irony of ironies.

lolwut? try buddhist. (mirrored)

re: #22 WrathofG-d

Charles,

At this point, you probably don't need any further proof that that "cletic Cross" symbol is used by Neo-Nazis and like groups but...

Evidence One

Evidence Two (middle row, last on right)

While the symbol is used by Neo Nazis it is also used as a decoration and as pointed out by Loppyd and Iron Fist. Out lawing a symbol does nothing for the problem.

I own several white bedsheets, should those be outlawed as well? Where should the line be drawn?

It's completely odious for any supposedly free country to prohibit the simple display of any symbol, however odious.
Just saying.....

re: #165 eschew_obfuscation

Sure, I understand that. And I'm aware that neither you nor Charles support such bans.

I just think we should take the use of such symbols in context with the words and actions of those who employ them and not solely at face value. They're an indication that the user could have fascist tendencies which, in this case they do, but we only know that by virtue of other evidence....not only their use of the symbol.

I'm now not sure we actually disagree here. It just looked to me as if you were implying that anyone's use of Odin's cross means they're fascists.

Maybe I misinferred....

Did you read Charles' post...

"the symbol that’s visible on Vlaams Belang leader Filip DeWinter’s bookshelf in the video on this page),"

Charles targeted Vlaams Belang in his comment. In all the threads on this subject about the cross and European Nationalist groups has been in direct reference to those groups, not a willy-nilly condemnation of anyone with this cross.

re: #27 zuckerlilly

Just thinking out loud here - not questioning ZL here :

Who decides whether or not the display is in the direct context of religion? Many of these hate groups have all the characteristics of a "religion" and many claim that they are.

fact is, I don't see why I should have to give up or recycle my celtic or viking crosses. I had possession of them way before these nutjobs did.

re: #169 WrathofG-d

The Swastika a Jewish symbol?

NO!

Yes.

re: #173 fish

While the symbol is used by Neo Nazis it is also used as a decoration and as pointed out by Loppyd and Iron Fist. Out lawing a symbol does nothing for the problem.

I own several white bedsheets, should those be outlawed as well? Where should the line be drawn?

Sleeping on them ,,,,,, GOOD

line ---------------------------------------

Wearing them while carrying a torch ,,,, NOT SO MUCH !

got it ?

The Odin's Cross is a symmetrical circle and cross.

Celtic Crosses usually have a longer lower arm on the cross. Often they have either Celtic knotwork or stylized biblical scenes in relief on them. They are rarely plain.

The Odin's cross has 4 quarter round holes made by the circle and cross.

Celtic Crosses often turn this space into 4 circular holes.

It is nice for the German Court to agree that the Odin's cross is indeed a nazi symbol, but banning it is troubling. I saw a guy a few weeks ago with a large lightening SS tattoo on his arm. Although shocked, I thought it was nice because it saved me the trouble of finding out sometime later how he thought.

re: #173 fish

While the symbol is used by Neo Nazis it is also used as a decoration and as pointed out by Loppyd and Iron Fist. Out lawing a symbol does nothing for the problem.

I own several white bedsheets, should those be outlawed as well? Where should the line be drawn?

Hey, did you read Charles' post above...

"Please note that I haven't written one word that supports banning symbols, because I don't support banning symbols. But this news from Germany puts the lie to the claims of people who've been trying to dismiss the significance of that symbol in so many VB-related situations."

Chew on that.

re: #167 Mark1957

#133,

Funny thing about that "pagan symbol"--Christian churches also incorporated it into their architecture. For example, a few years back, some guys doing some repairs to the entrance of one of our local Catholic churches discovered a large floor mosiac prominently incorporating counter-clockwise swastikas. The thing had probably been covered over sometime in the 1930's or 40's. Nobody could decide what to do about the mosaic so, in the end, they just did the "committee thing" and covered it up again.

Check this out--I'm surprised the Canadian HRC's haven't set their sights on this place yet:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

There are at least a couple of buildings downtown here that have a swastika motif in a concrete band that surrounds the building. These were of course constructed prior to the rise of the Nazi party.

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Did you read Charles' post...

"the symbol that’s visible on Vlaams Belang leader Filip DeWinter’s bookshelf in the video on this page),"

Charles targeted Vlaams Belang in his comment. In all the threads on this subject about the cross and European Nationalist groups has been in direct reference to those groups, not a willy-nilly condemnation of anyone with this cross.

Charles has. He has sense. Doesn't mean the German government has.

re: #170 CheDub

Football IS Religion!

Sorry, Walter-
I'm just not seeing how anyone has been missing the point in this thread.
No one is arguing that VB is anything other than what it is.

re: #165 eschew_obfuscation

That just epitomizes my first atatement , the next trick is to Outlaw the Neo Nazis ....

Why pick on the symbols and leave the thief to continue in impunity in stealing ancient IP ?

It would have been better for the German court to outlaw neo fascism providing sever penalties of rthose hwo steal symbols to use for advancing their measure of hatred .

re: #183 Outrider

Charles has. He has sense. Doesn't mean the German government has.

The only sense any government has is self-preservation.

re: #173 fish

When you put the bed sheets around your body, and head. Make a point on the hat portion, and begin running through the street screaming "lynch the _____s".

re: #177 Outrider

fact is, I don't see why I should have to give up or recycle my celtic or viking crosses. I had possession of them way before these nutjobs did.

exactly. the swastika is also a hindu symbol.

re: #171 useless

I can has Icon test.....

Yes. A cannibal pumpkin.

/Did you see the website, or just buy the book?

re: #133 Spiny Norman
and Ringo

Exactly. It's the Pagan symbol the neo-Nazis have adopted, just like their ideological forebears did with the Swastika.

Christianity has co-opted many of the pagan symbols of european mythology. I say that as a Christian.

re: #190 strikefo

exactly. the swastika is also a hindu symbol.

And Amerindian. It was used extensively thoughout Arizona until WWII, even on the state route shields.

re: #183 Outrider

Charles has. He has sense. Doesn't mean the German government has.

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE MERITS OF THE GERMANS GOVERNMENTS DECISION. IT'S ABOUT MORE PROOF THAT VB IS A RACIST GROUP THAT SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTED JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE ANTI-JIHAD.

How are you missing that? Why do you keep coming back to the merits of this decision?

Looks like this is damning for the VB use as a code symbol. Will it be removed from the window of the cafe though?
From the german translation:
Only if the symbol in an apparently harmless connection will be used, it is not punishable.
I bet they will make the court decide.

re: #156 Honorary Yooper

It has happened here. You can start with the Wilson administration, and then take a close look at the New Deal.

The New Deal was a lot of things but I wouldn't call it fascist.

re: #121 Charles

Please note that I haven't written one word that supports banning symbols, because I don't support banning symbols.

But this news from Germany puts the lie to the claims of people who've been trying to dismiss the significance of that symbol in so many VB-related situations.

It's worse than that.

Not only are you right about the VB, the very fact that Germany's first action is to ban the symbols shows that fascist inclinations live on in the ruling class within Europe and, should the people accept the banning of symbols, the people are prepared to follow such leadership.

All that's needed for these guys is a little political switcheroo (a momentary lapse into good press) and the majority of the people will frighteningly just go along with it...like they've been trained to do.

re: #186 Capitalist Tool

Sorry, Walter- I'm just not seeing how anyone has been missing the point in this thread. No one is arguing that VB is anything other than what it is.

Then why did Charles feel a need to post this comment?

re: #121 Charles

Please note that I haven't written one word that supports banning symbols, because I don't support banning symbols.

But this news from Germany puts the lie to the claims of people who've been trying to dismiss the significance of that symbol in so many VB-related situations.

With this symbol outlawed, one would suppose another will be selected by the same group. Just how many symbols can governments ban? - or will they play 'chase the symbol' for the next couple of decades. Anyway, it sounds like a waste of time to me. There must be a better way to keep the risk of another fascist group from taking control. Like maybe educating the young about their own history and learning to think independently. Just a wild crazy thought.

re: #192 Eowyn2

and Ringo

Christianity has co-opted many of the pagan symbols of european mythology. I say that as a Christian.

The Christmas tree is a Christianity original!

Any one notice registration is open?

This or that ideology or group can be banned from now on, but that won't change man's basic nature and will only drive the groups underground.

As I recall, the Germans banned the Swastika and Iron Cross quite some time ago...

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Odin's Cross is a symbol known to be used by white supremacists and Neo-Nazis as a symbol of the Nordic purity. That fact (in one form or another) is known to many people with common sense (and more than 3 braincells).

Neo-Nazi apologists choose to ignore this fact, not because of the innocent nature of the symbolism behind the contemporary use of the Odin's Cross, but because they want to white-wash these Neo-Nazis and make them appear mainstream.

Banning one symbol or another won't stop the Neo-Nazis from being mother***** as sure as it won't stop those apologists from trying to make those Neo-Nazis look like harmless patriots.

Legal bans that affect freedom of speech are a BAD way to fight Neo-Nazis. The conquest of Germany by the Allies (end of WWII) and the de-Nazification that followed, however, are good examples of how Nazis SHOULD be dealt with. I'm proud to have family members who had been part of that great house-cleaning.

re: #202 Floral Giraffe

Any one notice registration is open?

yeah ,,, you ,,, good job!

I don't think I understand this Karma thing. I thought Charles said the number went up/down with each ding. My number has gone up 15 points and I can't find any dings on any of my comments?

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE MERITS OF THE GERMANS GOVERNMENTS DECISION. IT'S ABOUT MORE PROOF THAT VB IS A RACIST GROUP THAT SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTED JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE ANTI-JIHAD.

How are you missing that? Why do you keep coming back to the merits of this decision?

But is there anyone on the page who DOESNT already know that the VB is an extremely racist group and is not someone to sleep with?

I certainly hope this is no reflection on the Celts.

re: #207 eschew_obfuscation

I don't think I understand this Karma thing. I thought Charles said the number went up/down with each ding. My number has gone up 15 points and I can't find any dings on any of my comments?

double secret probation dingage

re: #204 Capitalist Tool

This or that ideology or group can be banned from now on, but that won't change man's basic nature and will only drive the groups underground.

As I recall, the Germans banned the Swastika and Iron Cross quite some time ago...

Didn't they even ban National Socialism? Wonderful ban there that did nothing but encourage it.

Just a flag.

Just a rope.

Just a robe.

Just a patch.

Just a march.

Just a salute.

Just a book.

and

Just an innocent cross

re: #137 callahan23

Wow. Wonder if the governator will need to apoligize for that?
But to who? Greenies, for saying they can be "like the Gestapo"?
Or Jews (and other sensible people) for saying he could love something like the gestapo?

re: #160 Irish Rose

I remember very well that the BJ allways argued that the cross on DeWinters bookshelf would be a celtic cross.

re: #198 Walter L. NewtonMy point is, I don't see where anyone is missing what you, or Charles has said- no one has said a word in support of VM or denied that they have been using the symbol in question, or misread the nature of that group.

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

That's what the fuck I have been saying along with this thread, but it seems a hell of a lot of Lizards are totally missing the point (or want to ignore the point).

Yes, I'm getting a bit mad here.

I don't see why. Just because people are discussing related issues doesn't mean they missed the point of the post.

re: #199 ploome hineni

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I photographed hundreds of these while travelling in Ireland a few years ago, they're everywhere.

More love legislation by the left. If they can just eliminate so-called symbols of hate, we will all circle up and do a bitchin' version of kumbaya... Let em have the symbols. That way we know where they are.

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

There's a "sounding brass and tinkling symbol" joke just crying to be made by someone who knows that line better than I.

ummm,,, Every Time A Bell rings An Angel In Heaven gets Its Wings!

(hey ,, best I could do on short notice!)

re: #170 CheDub

So what happens when the Northern Ireland football (soccer) team comes to play?

nothing.

re: #208 Eowyn2

But is there anyone on the page who DOESNT already know that the VB is an extremely racist group and is not someone to sleep with?

Who the fuck knows. I couldn't tell by the comments. No pat on Charles' back that this article proves the point he has been trying to make for month after month.

Just a lot of sniping about whether the German government made a good decision or not.

I just think we should be raising a glass to Charles, yet in over 200 comments, there hasn't been much talk about it, has there?

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

There's a "sounding brass and tinkling symbol" joke just crying to be made by someone who knows that line better than I.

How about a simple "in the twinkling of an eye"

re: #220 sattv4u2

ummm,,, Every Time A Bell rings An Angel In Heaven gets Its Wings!

(hey ,, best I could do on short notice!)

Add "Teacher says," to your quote and you got it. ;)

re: #201 bosforus

The Christmas tree is a Christianity original!

Well naturally the Christmas Tree is a Christian original but trees have been worshipped on every continent in the world for much longer than Christianity has been around.

Just tipped a shot glass to Charles.
Just because-

re: #226 Capitalist Tool

Just tipped a shot glass to Charles.
Just because-

as long as you don't shoot a tipped glass at him, I think it's fine!

re: #207 eschew_obfuscation

I don't think I understand this Karma thing. I thought Charles said the number went up/down with each ding. My number has gone up 15 points and I can't find any dings on any of my comments?

Woops.....forgot to reload the page. My web-foo is a bit weak today ;*o

re: #196 geata

The New Deal was a lot of things but I wouldn't call it fascist.

I sincerely beg to differ with you. Read up on the National Recovery Administration (NRA). The essence of fascism is collectivism, as with socialism. The main difference between the two is that one is national while the other is international. Read the writings of people in charge of the New Deal like Hugh Johnson (head of the NRA in 1934-35). He was a great admirer of Mussolini and his system of corporatism in Italy.

I would suggest starting with Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism and go from there.

re: #227 buzzsawmonkey

re: #223 Capitalist Tool

The "sounding brass and tinkling cymbal" line is from the New Testament, and I, alas, don't know the line and context well enough to make a truly cogent crack.

*GASP* You don't know everything?!? I'm crushed. ;)

re: #230 Honorary Yooper

I sincerely beg to differ with you. Read up on the National Recovery Administration (NRA). The essence of fascism is collectivism, as with socialism. The main difference between the two is that one is national while the other is international. Read the writings of people in charge of the New Deal like Hugh Johnson (head of the NRA in 1934-35). He was a great admirer of Mussolini and his system of corporatism in Italy.

I would suggest starting with Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism and go from there.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #225 Eowyn2

Well naturally the Christmas Tree is a Christian original but trees have been worshipped on every continent in the world for much longer than Christianity has been around.

Of course, this issue already came up here in Golden, Colorado. A Rabbi wanted to put a menorah up, city council said no, I told the city council...

"Golden council OKs Santa but not a menorah (Thurs. 11-13-2008 online)

I have no religious dog in this fight, since I do not support any organized religion or spiritual/supernatural assembly of any sort.

But this decision on the part of Golden's City Council is extremely hypocritical. If the City is going to decorate ANY foliage, using taxpayers money, then they are supporting the RELIGIOUS aspect of this holiday season.

Decorated foliage (oak trees, fir tress, logs, bushes, boughs) was traditional with the pagan Germanic tribes. In the 16th century, these practices were transferred and adopted by Christians, to celebrate the birth of Christ. Even something seemingly non-religious as a stocking filled with gift items stem directly from these Germanic traditions and borrowed by believers to represent the gift giving of the Magi's.

These are undisputable facts. The City Council can go down the list of items that the Supreme Court as deemed "secular," but no court of law can change history. Not unless the City of Golden has purchased some "memory holes," as described in the book "1984," to erased history.

If the City Council decorates any tree, bush, bough, log with lights, a ham, a goat, a stocking, stars, apples, nuts, dates, paper flowers, pretzels, cheese, candles, sugar ornaments, candy canes, tin star and places these item in a public place or on public property, than they are continuing a Christmas tradition that is over 400 years old.

So, my suggestion would be to request that the City of Golden remove any city displays placed in or around Lions Park, South Golden Road, Washington Ave, or any other place that City employees have erected anything that falls under the category of Christmas or winter holiday decoration.

Or, a more honest, truthful and intelligent approach would be to allow individuals or groups to place holiday symbols on designated public property, at no cost to the city. And for the hand wringing and teeth gnashing city lawyers, hey, consider it job security. You'll have something new to jam up the courts with."

re: #227 buzzsawmonkey

re: #223 Capitalist Tool

The "sounding brass and tinkling cymbal" line is from the New Testament, and I, alas, don't know the line and context well enough to make a truly cogent crack.

Just your words cogent crack are enough to make me chuckle...

re: #231 FurryOldGuyJeans

*GASP* You don't know everything?!? I'm crushed. ;)

I do ,,but I don;t want to be showy!

re: #115 WrathofG-d

Their luck that my maternal grandfather is no longer with us. He'd go and teach those assholes a lesson or two were he alive. In his absence we should take the task on ourselves. Declare a "Beat Up the Nazi Week". All year long.

So sorry, but your heritage has been rebranded by a bunch of punks. Nannies who want everyone to play nice and think they can sweep fascism under the rug are themselves a danger to free speech and free thought. re: Walter L. Newton - I think everyone understood your point the first time around. People aren't stupid just because they disagree with you.

I don't have anything meaningful to add to the thread.

Just came in, saw the LAST thread, and thought I better post something so I could check my karma.

/do I REALLY want to do this? ... *shudder*

I once wrote on GoV (sorry for the typos and the mistakes):

part 1

You miss the point. The swastika was a very popular symbol during the 19th and at the beginning of the 20th century. The Nazis used that symbol BECAUSE it was well known and culturally accepted all over Europe and the US. You even have the swastika in the US-military. The Nazis twisted the meaning of the swastika and made it their „Aryan white power“-symbol. It was perfect for them: they hadn’t to design an own symbol, it was already designed, they hadn’t to make it popular, it was already popular and after the Nazis made it their distinctive mark it was burned for everyone who was not a Nazi. So after the Nazis misused the swastika-symbol it is burned for everyone who keeps his sanity.

Be fair: would you use the swastika as your blog symbol and afterwards explain people that it has nothing to do with Nazis, that it is only a harmless Indian sun-symbol?

The Celtic cross has a similar history. In context:

1. In the second half of the 19th century Historism arose as a new art form. They mixed everything: Germanic history with Romanesque, Gothic with renaissance. So “Celtic” became again part of the German identity although the Celtic cross was never a German symbol but “Celtic” was seen as Germanic.

2. Especially after the failed revolution of 1848 in Germany “secular” student fraternities gained in power. Originally formed against Napoleon as part of a “folk in arms” they now turned against the German Emperor and the church. They felt suppressed by them and asked for more democracy and freedom.

3. At that time it was nearly impossible to leave the church. You could convert from Judaism to Christianity (catholic or Anglican, all kinds of Protestantism or Orthodoxy) you could also convert from one Christian church to another but you couldn’t leave the church to become a “pagan”. So the “secular” student fraternities twisted the meaning of the “Celtic” cross into a pagan symbol (as did all these mystics and ultra-nationalists who wanted to build a new “Germanic Reich” at that time). They used the “Celtic Cross” because it was “Celtic” and “Celtic” was Germanic and Germanic was pagan (Odin). Now the Celtic Cross was renamed in these circles as Odin’s Cross. Since the 12th century the Celtic Cross was out of use in continental Europe after the Pope’s of Rome had gained more and more power and they used their own symbols. So they (the “seculars”) had a perfect symbol referring to paganism which was forbidden but the church and the authority could do simply nothing. Later these groups became part of the Nazi-ideology. So we come to

4. the painting of the battle of Tours and Portiers by Charles de Reuven (Carl von Reuven). Reuven was a very well educated aristocrat and artist. He KNEW that the Celtic monks had Christianized most of north and middle Europe and also great parts of France in the centuries before the battle. He knew also that the Christians in Spain were mainly Arians at the time of the batle. The Celtic cross here is shown as a symbol of the strength or power of the true believing Franks and the weakness of the heretic Arians who were overrun by the Muslims and who tried to arrange with them. Since the First Council of Nicaea Arianism was banned as heresy.

5. Now we come to the presence. After WWII the old Nazi-symbols were forbidden (but not the Celtic Cross which was still also recognized by the Church as a Christian symbol) so the neo-Nazis and right wing extremists were in need for new symbols they could use without being prosecuted but their supporters would recognize as their symbol. The Celtic/Odin’s Cross was one of them another one the “German Reichsflagge” which was in use till the end of WWI, because the flag referred to “Reich” and not to “state” which they condemned.

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I don't have anything meaningful to add to the thread.

Just came in, saw the LAST thread, and thought I better post something so I could check my karma.

/do I REALLY want to do this? ... *shudder*

Go for it ,,, you're in good shape!

re: #237 BigMac

So sorry, but your heritage has been rebranded by a bunch of punks. Nannies who want everyone to play nice and think they can sweep fascism under the rug are themselves a danger to free speech and free thought. re: Walter L. Newton - I think everyone understood your point the first time around. People aren't stupid just because they disagree with you.

and no one has disagreed with him...

re: #48 Iron Fist

Gotta steam iron? Belt sander?

re: #243 calcajun

Gotta steam iron? Belt sander?

exacto knife !?!?!?

part 2

Did you never reflect why right wing extremist/neo-Nazi groups which are raving anti-church and raving anti-Christian – like Voorpost, the security staff of VB – would use a Christian symbol? This doesn’t make sense, does it? (Me thinks you confuse the fact that Belien is a believing catholic with the fact, that most of the VB elites are NOT believing Catholics and their ideology is not accordable with the Catholic Church or Christianity as a whole. Therefore it is a special irony that the VB refers to the “Judeo-Christian”-culture of Europe and claims to be it’s savior.)
The Celtic/Odin’s Cross was now used as a symbol against Western hegemony (= US = Jews). From this time the Cross appeared all over Europe in right wing extremist/neo-Nazis groups.

6. DeWinter was socialized in and along these groups. But the more VB was successful at the ballot the less they could use the symbol because the average voter wouldn’t want to be identified with it. No, not all voters of VB are racists and/or neo-Nazis. A lot of them are protest voters who are fed up with the other parties, others are Flemish nationalists and others are losers of globalization and vote for VB because they promise MORE socialism and welfare (of course only for the “own people”).

Conclusion:

1. The cross in deWinters board is without doubt hundred per cent an Odin’s Cross and I’m sure it is from his time in the VB youth and other organizations. They now don’t use it openly and they are not amused if it appears on their party events because it scares their prospective voters. But it is one thing what they do when they want to gain votes and another what they think and do when the doors are closed and they keep to themselves.

2. To be open anti-Semitic became counter-productive. They couldn’t transform 30000 peaceful Jews in Belgian, more than the half of them fully assimilated, to a danger for Flanders. So they needed a more potential enemy: Islam and immigrants (mostly of them identified as Muslims and/or as blacks).
The strategy they use is the same religious cults use: tell the people the occident will perish if they don’t vote for VB (FPOE, BZOE, NPD etc.), the only solution to save the world is to vote for VB, the end is near. Short: they scare people to death and use their prejudice against aliens. And they do this with cherry-picking facts, using stereotypes about aliens, denouncing all aliens as prospective criminals or terrorists. Unquestionable Europe has big problems with immigration and integration. But we don’t need propaganda we need rational solutions and therefore it is necessary to analyze the problems – like for example the University of Bielefeld does (Prof. Heitmeyer) and to learn more about how migration happens. Then we can find workable and rational solutions.

3. Solution: VB doesn’t have an acceptable solution. Their “solution” reminds me on Hitler’s first solution for the Jews: deportation to Palestine. But you can’t deport more than one million people. So they are either liars or prospective mass-murderers. Their “solution” is a “simple solution” for idiots. They speak about “integration” but don’t say how the immigrants should integrate when they exclude them from the “Judeo-Christian-society”.

4. No, I don’t think that VB is a neo-Nazi-party. It is a populist party (in the worst kind of understanding) on the basic of the neo-fascist ideology. And they are an important part of the European right wing extremist/neo-fascist/neo-Nazi network with disturbing links to the ugliest neo-Nazi groups of Europe.

re: #236 Twilight

Their luck that my maternal grandfather is no longer with us. He'd go and teach those assholes a lesson or two were he alive. In his absence we should take the task on ourselves. Declare a "Beat Up the Nazi Week". All year long.

Lets round them up and put them in camps.

part 3

I know there is nearly no serious literature written in English about this network in Europe so most Americans don’t know what’s really going on there. But it is important not to ally with the wrong people otherwise the counterjihad-movement will be stigmatized as a right wing extremist/neo-fascist/neo-Nazi-movement and never gain success in the mainstream. You bite the hand that feeds you and marginalize the movement to these more than questionable (hate) groups in Europe and the US.

To be taken seriously the counterjihad-movement should have been independent of parties/party-politics, independent from left wing/right wing or whatever and with high ethical standards. Sorry to say but you missed the chance.

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

I've known for years that Charles is on the right path here with his Blog , He supports Free speech and healthy open debate ,.

There is dissent and then there is bigotry and hatred .

when Bigotry and hatred overtake dissent the debate ends itself immediately .

In confirming the fact that after Charles found out about these bozo's and ejected the fascists like so much Crap from a goose was absolutely the right thing to do ..

Nobody can blame Charles fro doing the right thing , and no one in theri right mind can call him a "Censoring Asshat" , It was the only choice he had left to do to preserve the freedom of his Blog .

Let it be a warning to any people who come here and think they can propagate hatred against otheres .....it just isn't happening around here.

jeez...not to sympathize with the Nazis out there, but this makes me want to get a big ass odin's cross tattoo and fly to Berlin. This crap is so stupid.

hey what happens if you have a tat on your neck? do you get government provided turtlenecks or laser removal?

re: #241 sattv4u2

Go for it ,,, you're in good shape!

Your karma is better than mine -- any suggestions?

re: #245 zuckerlillyWhy are Nazis and their ilk always labeled "Right wing"?
National Socialist...

re: #160 Irish Rose

The banned symbol is a Sun Cross, an ancient pagan symbol that is used by neo-nazis and white nationalists to represent the Aryan race.

The Celtic cross is a Christian symbol.

Here's how to tell the difference between the two:
The Christian cross shows arms outside the circle, while the sun cross is totally surrounded by its circle.

Actually, that's not true. If you look at the two examples in Charles's post, both have the arms of the cross sticking out beyond the circle.

And in the Christian Celtic cross, whether it has a long vertical member on the bottom or equal lengths all round, as in my second example, the circle also represents the sun.

So there is room for confusion here. Anyway the Germans call it "das Keltenkreuz" and not "das Sonnenkreuz".

The point is that this news proves Charles's point that the use of this kind of cross by people associated with right wing parties puts them in the company of fascists. All I'm saying is that banning is not the answer. I like to see my fascists coming, so I can take appropriate measures beforehand.

But I'd also like to see some discrimination used, so that someone wearing a Celtic cross for religious or other harmless reasons doesn't get punished. The most disturbing part of the German law is it criminalizes something whether or not there's a provable connection to the "forbidden parties". And forbidding them only makes them stronger anyway.

re: #246 Rancher

Lets round them up and put them in camps.

We already did that in WWII with the Japanese/Americans. Turns out the Neisei units raised from them were the most decorated units in the US Army in WWII. Go figure.

Please wait... the court did not ban the symbol AS SUCH, it DID ban its use when it's clearly not "innocent".

You Irish girls or Celtic fans will still be allowed to wear it in Germany when it's clear that your (non extremist) intentions cannot be misunderstood. I can think of Irish folk festivals or the like.

I agree with Charles, the banning of symbols is not my cup of tea either, but what he wanted to prove is that the Celtic Cross is indeed widely used by fascists and the court made that very clear.

re: #249 spidly

jeez...not to sympathize with the Nazis out there, but this makes me want to get a big ass odin's cross tattoo and fly to Berlin. This crap is so stupid.

hey what happens if you have a tat on your neck? do you get government provided turtlenecks or laser removal?

I wouldn't do that. Hug tattoos like that narrow your choice of German prison gangs dramatically.
/

re: #213 nikis-knight

Wow. Wonder if the governator will need to apoligize for that?
But to who? Greenies, for saying they can be "like the Gestapo"?
Or Jews (and other sensible people) for saying he could love something like the gestapo?

Certainly he will not need to apologize to the greens. The German greens where founded with a considerable number of old-nazis. So they should shut the f*** up. Green and nazi programs have so many ideological intersections it frightens me every time I hear of a new 'ecological catastrophe'.

He should ( make it must ) apologize to the jewish population.

re: #115 WrathofG-d

2 Weeks ago in Russia.....

....and in Spain

......and in Portugal

......and in Hungary

Holy schnikes! I bet you could find even more than those.

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

Who the fuck knows. I couldn't tell by the comments. No pat on Charles' back that this article proves the point he has been trying to make for month after month.

Just a lot of sniping about whether the German government made a good decision or not.

I just think we should be raising a glass to Charles, yet in over 200 comments, there hasn't been much talk about it, has there?

Most of us have done that over the past six months or so - at one time or another. Its why we are here rather than at GoV or riding the Fjords.
Personally I figure Charles proved the connection between odins cross and the VB quite some time ago (I know I've seen the dewinter cross elsewhere.)

re: #251 Capitalist Tool

Everything negative is labeled "Right" and everything positive is labeled "Left". That is just how the media, socializes us.

re: #253 johnnyreb

We already did that in WWII with the Japanese/Americans. Turns out the Neisei units raised from them were the most decorated units in the US Army in WWII. Go figure.

"We" - meaning Roosevelt and the Democrats in control of Congress.