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Board of Education Poised to Embarrass Texas (Again)

Science | Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:46:15 pm PST

An Austin American-Statesman editorial hits the target: State board of education poised to embarrass Texas again.

Once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace because of the State Board of Education and the anti-evolution agenda of some of its members.

Whether there are enough votes on the 15-member board to end its efforts to force religious doctrine into public schools through the back door won’t be known for a while. The board might take a preliminary vote on standards for the public school science curriculum, and by extension the textbooks students use, in January. A final decision on the science curriculum will come in the spring.

A debate is raging over a state board requirement that students be taught the strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories as early as middle school. That “strengths and weaknesses” language is a way to attack evolution and clear the path for religious doctrines like creationism and intelligent design to be taught.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that prohibiting the teaching of evolution is a violation of the separation of church and state. So the education board uses criticism of evolution as a way to get around that prohibition and impose religious belief into the study of life on Earth.

Fully 95 percent of college science and biology teachers in Texas oppose weakening the teaching of evolution by offering alternative explanations. The “strength and weakness” clause only confuses students by inserting a religious doctrine into the study of science.

That, of course, doesn’t help students. It only hurts them when it comes to learning accepted scientific theory. But that’s fine with board members, who are unconcerned about the detrimental effects of their policies.

Too many members of this board are on a religious mission, not an educational one. That’s clear to anyone who has followed its members and their efforts to inculcate conservative religious views into public education over the years.

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1106 comments

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1 saberry0530  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:47:53pm

Sometimes they feel like a nut, sometimes they don't.....

2 coquimbojoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:49:05pm

How does this help the cause of anyone who believes in a divine being? I am ashamed to be lumped in with these fools and luddites.

3 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:49:12pm

That was fast. Crusty dinged down this thread in a nanosecond.

4 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:50:11pm

Salamantis is no doubt salivating.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:50:46pm
But that’s fine with board members, who are unconcerned about the detrimental effects of their policies.

And in this, they are no different than the leftists indoctrinating our kids too. The other side of the same coin really.

So a pox on both groups!

6 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:52:31pm
7 Basho  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:52:57pm
So the education board uses criticism of evolution as a way to get around that prohibition and impose religious belief into the study of life on Earth.

How about teaching the criticisms of ID? One lesson in that and it will be laughed off. I'm sure these people wouldn't be too thrilled if what they want to teach is presented as the garbage it is.

8 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:53:17pm

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

9 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:54:06pm

re: #8 Moe Katz

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

Many conservatives have trouble with it, too.

10 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:05pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

How does this help the cause of anyone who believes in a divine being? I am ashamed to be lumped in with these fools and luddites.

THe fools and luddites who believe in a divine being, or the fools and luddites on the TX Bd of Education?

11 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:10pm

re: #7 Basho

How about teaching the criticisms of ID? One lesson in that and it will be laughed off. I'm sure these people wouldn't be too thrilled if what they want to teach is presented as the garbage it is.

Ken Miller did a good job of that in his book Only A Theory. He did a pretty good job, imo, of making ID laughable.

12 Abaddon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:21pm

I've had it out with a few people at work (in San Antonio) over this. I'm ashamed that we have these idiots on the Texas Board of Education.

Being unable to distinguish between matters of faith and matters of science appears to be more difficult for some folks than I ever imagined. They can each believe all they want ... as long as they don't foist off religion on our kids as science.

13 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:40pm

However, this is a left leaning newspaper with a liberal agenda.

14 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:56pm

re: #9 MandyManners

Many conservatives have trouble with it, too.

True. But a line like "once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace" sounds to me like a liberal Texan attitude. That's okay with me, mind you, Texas conservatives are a little too far out for my liking.

15 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:56:26pm

re: #8 Moe Katz

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

Perhaps, but I agree with it.

16 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:56:44pm

re: #14 Moe Katz

True. But a line like "once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace" sounds to me like a liberal Texan attitude. That's okay with me, mind you, Texas conservatives are a little too far out for my liking.

Most of us aren't ID'ers. But hey, whatever.

17 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:56:54pm
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that prohibiting the teaching of evolution is a violation of the separation of church and state. So the education board uses criticism of evolution as a way to get around that prohibition and impose religious belief into the study of life on Earth.

/chances they'll be successful, zero

18 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:57:09pm

re: #13 theparson

However, this is a left leaning newspaper with a liberal agenda.

Aha, as I suspected. And Austin is liberal compared to the rest of the state, is it not?

19 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:57:34pm

Another reason why being a Board of Education member requires some sense and basic education.

"Give me that ol' time religion" and remove my brain apparently.

20 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:57:59pm

re: #18 Moe Katz

Aha, as I suspected. And Austin is liberal compared to the rest of the state, is it not?

So everyone outside of Austin is an ID'er?

21 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:58:25pm

Evolving Darwin Play Set
Contemplate the validity of evolution and natural selection with this five piece Evolving Darwin Play Set. Each meticulously detailed, hard vinyl figure represents a different stage of human evolution all the way from fish-man to a modern day Homo sapien in the form of Charles Darwin. Figures range from 3/8" to 3-1/4" tall.

22 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:58:26pm

re: #18 Moe Katz

Aha, as I suspected. And Austin is liberal compared to the rest of the state, is it not?

Most certainly. Austin is as liberal as Berkley!
Says it all!

23 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:58:34pm

re: #15 reine.de.tout

Perhaps, but I agree with it.

Me too. It's just that the sense of embarrassment for Texas as a whole struck me as really typical of Texas liberals, who usually find much to be embarrassed about :)

24 DeathtotheSwiss  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:16pm

Just relax, everyone, I'm sure these guys are reasonable intelligent folk who are more than willing to have an adult discussion about the issue. I know what'll cheer you up though.

25 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:26pm

re: #14 Moe Katz

True. But a line like "once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace" sounds to me like a liberal Texan attitude. That's okay with me, mind you, Texas conservatives are a little too far out for my liking.

Well. That line didn't stand out for me.
I guess because I'm next door in Louisiana and so accustomed to hearing how backwards we are that it didn't even register.

26 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:26pm

re: #11 Sharmuta

book? i'll wait for the movie!

27 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:50pm

re: #23 Moe Katz

Me too. It's just that the sense of embarrassment for Texas as a whole struck me as really typical of Texas liberals, who usually find much to be embarrassed about :)

Well, the state DID suddenly became a real shithole the day after GW Bush became Governor.

28 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:59pm

re: #22 theparson

Most certainly. Austin is as liberal as Berkley!
Says it all!

So they endorsed Obama! But not Kinky for gov, I suppose :)

29 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:00:39pm

re: #23 Moe Katz

Me too. It's just that the sense of embarrassment for Texas as a whole struck me as really typical of Texas liberals, who usually find much to be embarrassed about :)

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal.

30 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:01:41pm

re: #28 Moe Katz

Not sure. I didn't take Kinky seriously enough to investigate, what with the 25 votes he got.

31 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:02:05pm

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

32 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:02:41pm

re: #20 OldLineTexan

So everyone outside of Austin is an ID'er?

Well, young earth creationism would be a real problem for the Texas oil industry, I should think :)

33 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:02:45pm

What does it matter about the source of this article? It comes from the left, so it can be disregarded? That's the sort of logic koslings use to disregard fox news. It's not intellectually honest.

Now- if this was a lefty article full of crap, that would be a different story, but as it stands, it seems to me this article is discussing facts.

34 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:03:00pm

Wow, look at the LGF activity these days.

It was just a few years ago, when we had a celebration the first time an all-day thread broke the record of 600 postings.

Charles, given the chance, what would you do different?
.

35 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:03:25pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal.

Good point :)

36 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:03:57pm

re: #32 Moe Katz

Well, young earth creationism would be a real problem for the Texas oil industry, I should think :)

Heh.

37 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:10pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

Who said it is required?

38 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:19pm

re: #30 theparson

Not sure. I didn't take Kinky seriously enough to investigate, what with the 25 votes he got.

He entertained the rest of the continent, anyway. I was rooting for him.

39 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:26pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

Separation of church and state.

40 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:58pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

and where in the constitution does it state that we should teach fairy tales as scientific fact in our schools?

41 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:05:26pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

It doesn't require teaching about the Holocaust either.

/but facts is facts

42 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:06:39pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

What does it matter about the source of this article? It comes from the left, so it can be disregarded? That's the sort of logic koslings use to disregard fox news. It's not intellectually honest.

Now- if this was a lefty article full of crap, that would be a different story, but as it stands, it seems to me this article is discussing facts.

The first line matters to me a lot! "Once again" would imply a pattern. That's not only ridiculous it's offensive!

43 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:06:49pm

re: #32 Moe Katz

Well, young earth creationism would be a real problem for the Texas oil industry, I should think :)

Not really- they'd just say God put the oil their to bless the Great State of Texas.

44 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:06:59pm

re: #34 Tamron

Wow, look at the LGF activity these days.

It was just a few years ago, when we had a celebration the first time an all-day thread broke the record of 600 postings.

Charles, given the chance, what would you do different?
.


mebbe he'd get in line fer 15 mill in funding like the huff ho...

45 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:05pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

great song sharm!

46 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:12pm

re: #21 HelloDare

Evolving Darwin Play Set
Contemplate the validity of evolution and natural selection with this five piece Evolving Darwin Play Set. Each meticulously detailed, hard vinyl figure represents a different stage of human evolution all the way from fish-man to a modern day Homo sapien in the form of Charles Darwin. Figures range from 3/8" to 3-1/4" tall.

Of course, you'll need a good T-shirt to go with that, such as a 98% Chimp, Natural Selection: Good things come to those who mate, I Love Lucy or There's No Right Way to Eat a Rhesus.

47 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:17pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

Specifically: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

...unless "conservatives" want to further amend the Constitution this is always going to be a problem for teaching creationism in public schools.

48 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal much of a human being.

Fixed.
Conservatives have social consciences too.

49 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:49pm

The way the reporter phrases it, it makes it sound like not choosing to include evolution in the curriculm is an establishment of religion, rather than just a dumb policy choice.

50 Basho  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:13pm

re: #46 gmsc

Man, you're on a roll with the great links.

51 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:18pm

This is damned embarrassing! A bunch of fellow Baptist about to make such a mess out of the science curriculum. I wish I could disown the whole wayward lot of them, but they would probably kick me out of the church first.
It does give credence to the left's view of us as a bunch of sub-human retards. We have to fight RINOs, Dems, and now right-wing IDers. Damned idiots everyone of them.

52 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:22pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal.


Your statement implies that all liberals have feelings of some kind or other. What about the liberals who just don't give a damn about anything?

53 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:23pm

re: #49 Dar ul Harb

The way the reporter phrases it, it makes it sound like not choosing to include evolution in the curriculm is an establishment of religion, rather than just a dumb policy choice.

It is if the alternative is to teach ID.

54 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:31pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Not really- they'd just say God put the oil their to bless the Great State of Texas.

They think that way. A web site I was ordering CD's from in Texas had two possible shipping rates: Texas and Foreign.

55 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:00pm

re: #42 theparson

The first line matters to me a lot! "Once again" would imply a pattern. That's not only ridiculous it's offensive!

Ah- so it's a difference of priorities, I think. See- I'm more offended that people are trying to foist their idea of religion on other peoples' kids in science class. I find this deeply offensive to my faith and rights. Journalists acting like journalists is not the issue here.

56 SpaceJesus[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:07pm
57 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:12pm

re: #50 Basho

Man, you're on a roll with the great links.

Thank you! They're just things I've found searching around the web.

58 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:25pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

Fixed.
Conservatives have social consciences too.

SOME conservatives do. Others are social darwinist SOB's.

59 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:42pm

Glad you liked it Phnx!

60 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:47pm

re: #56 SpaceJesus

Take it somewhere else, please. Like DKos.

61 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:07pm

re: #58 Moe Katz

SOME conservatives do. Others are social darwinist SOB's.

I try.

62 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:18pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

And in this, they are no different than the leftists indoctrinating our kids too. The other side of the same coin really.

So a pox on both groups!

The language, I think, allowed discussion of "strengths and limitations". Leftist indoctrination that analyzed the strengths of opposing views is a sort I've never encountered and I never expect to.

63 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:20pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

Fixed.
Conservatives have social consciences too.

Next time fix what you say and leave what I say well enough alone. What I said is what I intended and don't need anyone fixing what I don't see as broken.

64 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:41pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout
Watch it bub! I'm a "conservative". These asshats ain't the conservatives I knew!

65 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:41pm

re: #61 OldLineTexan

I try.

:)

66 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:12:28pm

re: #46 gmsc

Also see: Teach the Controversy

67 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:12:30pm

re: #52 Tamron

Your statement implies that all liberals have feelings of some kind or other. What about the liberals who just don't give a damn about anything?

From my experience ALL liberals operate on feelings and collective guilt. Anyone that doesn't give a damn is not a liberal but an anarchist.

68 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:12:58pm

re: #55 Sharmuta

Ah- so it's a difference of priorities, I think. See- I'm more offended that people are trying to foist their idea of religion on other peoples' kids in science class. I find this deeply offensive to my faith and rights. Journalists acting like journalists is not the issue here.

Agreed. I do not want religion taught in public schools (probably for different reasons than some) but that issue has been well vetted here. I am outraged that a newspaper in the heart of Texas would so disparage her.

69 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:13:14pm

re: #62 Hobbes

The strength of evolution is not in dispute except by those who refuse to accept it's validity. The weakness of ID, on the other hand, is quite apparent.

70 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:13:33pm

re: #56 SpaceJesus

Asshole.

71 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:16pm

re: #70 MandyManners

Asshole.

Succinct and to the point. ;)

72 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:26pm

re: #63 FurryOldGuyJeans

Next time fix what you say and leave what I say well enough alone. What I said is what I intended and don't need anyone fixing what I don't see as broken.

fixed
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

73 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:29pm

re: #67 FurryOldGuyJeans

From my experience ALL liberals operate on feelings and collective guilt. Anyone that doesn't give a damn is not a liberal but an anarchist.


--Or just plain RETIRED?

:-)
.

74 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:31pm

re: #64 pingjockey

We''ll see which way the conservatives choose but I expect them to continue making wrong turns for another decade or so. 8 years of Obama might wake them up.

75 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:41pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

The strength of evolution is not in dispute except by those who refuse to accept it's validity. The weakness of ID, on the other hand, is quite apparent.

My point had to do with the character of leftist indoctrination in the schools. I thought I'd made that clear. Sorry if that eluded you. As for the evolution debate, I want no part of it.

76 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:45pm

re: #68 theparson

The issue may be "well vetted" for many of us, but these threads continue to have people showing up and asking honest questions because for whatever reason, they're new to this controversy. Usually, a couple links help them out, and they're brought up to speed. So- to say it's "well vetted" is not quite accurate.

77 mcnorman  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:51pm

What do you expect? It is Texas, after all.

78 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:52pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

The strength of evolution is not in dispute except by those who refuse to accept it's validity. The weakness of ID, on the other hand, is quite apparent.

Apparent only to those willing to accept things outside the first few chapters of Genesis as being the literal and complete truth.

79 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:57pm

In Texas, the state board of education is usually a little heard from group. People running for the board don't get a lot of attention and are not well known so when the average voter goes into the booth the candidates are unfamiliar. This leads most to either not vote or to just pull the party line. The other problem with the Texas BOE is that the districts are very gerrymandered. In fact in the election three weeks ago, there actually was a contested seat and the district for it stretched from Beaumont all the way to Brazoria county. David Bradley, who won and was a republican, is someone who actually home schooled his own children, yet feels comfortable being the BOE telling the rest of us what is good for our children who are publicly educated. His opponent was a democrat named Laura Ewing, who made it a campaign issue that she would not vote to dilute the teaching of evolution. Ewing lost primarily because of straight ticket voters and lack of recognition about the BOE.

80 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:17:02pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Specifically: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

...unless "conservatives" want to further amend the Constitution this is always going to be a problem for teaching creationism in public schools.

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

81 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:17:36pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Also see: Teach the Controversy

Favorited and updinged!

Also, here's the complete James Burke's The Day The Universe Changed episode, Fit To Rule:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5


(Like James Burke's documentaries? You can find all of them on YouTube!)

82 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:17:59pm

re: #77 mcnorman

What do you expect? It is Texas, after all.

bite me!

83 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:10pm

re: #56 SpaceJesus

you are a special kind of retard


Wow. An expert on retards.
.

84 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:23pm

God, Country, Family is how i was brought up

85 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:31pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

The issue may be "well vetted" for many of us, but these threads continue to have people showing up and asking honest questions because for whatever reason, they're new to this controversy. Usually, a couple links help them out, and they're brought up to speed. So- to say it's "well vetted" is not quite accurate.

Stop looking for a fight with me. I am not disagreeing with you. If my priorities are different than yours it's ok.

86 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:41pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout
I don't know. It seems when a truly conservative voice speaks up they are drowned out by moderates and don't be partisan. Screw that. I'm partisan and will stick up for limited government, strong national defense and cutting bullshit programs. So you see I don't see any mass movement of 'moderate'(hate that word) repubs to the right unless obambi does a FDR and tries to nationalize everything.

87 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:53pm

re: #75 Hobbes

My point had to do with the character of leftist indoctrination in the schools. I thought I'd made that clear. Sorry if that eluded you. As for the evolution debate, I want no part of it.

Hobbes- I understood what you were saying about the left. The problem is there is no grounds for religious zealots to demand this of science.

88 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:19:23pm

re: #80 Timbre

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

They don't help the cause of salvation by adherence to this idiocy.

89 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:19:31pm
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that prohibiting the teaching of evolution is a violation of the separation of church and state.

re: #53 MandyManners

It is if the alternative is to teach ID.

Well, that's different.

What if those states who so choose just hold off with teaching evolution until college?

As I've said before, there's plenty of biology to teach aside from "teaching the controversy".

90 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:09pm

re: #79 big steve

In Texas, the state board of education is usually a little heard from group. People running for the board don't get a lot of attention and are not well known so when the average voter goes into the booth the candidates are unfamiliar. This leads most to either not vote or to just pull the party line. The other problem with the Texas BOE is that the districts are very gerrymandered. In fact in the election three weeks ago, there actually was a contested seat and the district for it stretched from Beaumont all the way to Brazoria county. David Bradley, who won and was a republican, is someone who actually home schooled his own children, yet feels comfortable being the BOE telling the rest of us what is good for our children who are publicly educated. His opponent was a democrat named Laura Ewing, who made it a campaign issue that she would not vote to dilute the teaching of evolution. Ewing lost primarily because of straight ticket voters and lack of recognition about the BOE.

Well, he is a tax-payer.

91 vibemanjoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:17pm

re: #80 Timbre

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

Excuse me, please, but I am a religious conservative and I care greatly about the constitution.

Joe

92 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:21pm

re: #87 Sharmuta

Hobbes- I understood what you were saying about the left. The problem is there is no grounds for religious zealots to demand this of science.

OK.

93 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:26pm
94 SpaceJesus[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:48pm
95 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:51pm

re: #85 theparson

WTF? I mention that for some people this issue is new, and that's somehow "picking a fight"? ETFOM.

96 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:58pm

re: #88 Haverwilde

I agree completely.

97 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:59pm

re: #93 ploome hineni

yo

oy

98 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:00pm

re: #80 Timbre

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

That's so weird...almost every person I know in Texas that values the Constitution is a conservative and religious. But I'm only 46.

/

99 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:07pm

re: #89 Dar ul Harb

Well, that's different.

What if those states who so choose just hold off with teaching evolution until college?

As I've said before, there's plenty of biology to teach aside from "teaching the controversy".

It would put those students WAY behind when they got to college.

100 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:15pm
101 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:18pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus
There is no allah. It is a made up religion by a pedophile.

102 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:27pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus

Fuck you.

103 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:59pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

104 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:23:07pm

re: #89 Dar ul Harb

Well, that's different.

What if those states who so choose just hold off with teaching evolution until college?

As I've said before, there's plenty of biology to teach aside from "teaching the controversy".

Because due to the ever-widening field of epigenetics it's near impossible to teach any biology without some requisite evolutionary background.

105 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:23:27pm

re: #100 ploome hineni

:D

what's up?

Our Sabbath evolution thread.

106 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:23:59pm

re: #90 MandyManners

Well, he is a tax-payer.

yes but apparently he is NOT a tax-payer in the very district he represents.....David Bradley Residency

107 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:24:48pm

re: #106 big steve

yes but apparently he is NOT a tax-payer in the very district he represents.....David Bradley Residency

That I have some trouble with.

108 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:12pm
109 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:17pm

re: #105 Moe Katz

Our Sabbath evolution thread.

Speaking of that I just got around to reading the manual on my new stove, it has a Shabbath feature that turns off the computer inside automatically.

110 i poop u scoop  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:23pm

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

111 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:25pm

re: #102 MandyManners

i think he forgot his sarc tag

112 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:39pm

re: #104 Thanos

Because due to the ever-widening field of epigenetics it's near impossible to teach any biology without some requisite evolutionary background.

Not sure why that would require invoking concepts of MACRO-evolution, however. I'm open-minded on the question, though.

113 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:09pm

re: #108 ploome hineni

cool

Charles says Kiddush, we all have a drink of wine.

114 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:10pm
115 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:35pm
116 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:58pm

re: #109 Thanos

Speaking of that I just got around to reading the manual on my new stove, it has a Shabbath feature that turns off the computer inside automatically.

This is in the USA?

117 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:00pm

re: #70 MandyManners

I second that!

118 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:00pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Click + on comments you like, click - on those you don't like.

Click on your football, and find your Karma rating.

Six on three comments ain't a bad start.

119 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:10pm
120 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:14pm

re: #91 vibemanjoe

Joe, you are probably not as religiously conservative as the people to whom I am referring. I'm talking about people who ignore the First Amendment by holding strategy meetings to try and come up with ways to have Congress or the Courts create an establishment of religion--namely, fundamentalist Christianity. I know this because they called me once back in the 80's and I attended one of their "prayer breakfasts" without knowing what their agenda really was. The prayer breakfast was entirely politics: how to make America one large fundamentalist church.

If that is you, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend; just point out the real goal of these people.

121 SpaceJesus[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:22pm
122 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:39pm

re: #92 Hobbes

Why are you opposed to discussing evolution?

123 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:43pm

re: #115 ploome hineni

he got a Thermador

Make mine lobster, please.

124 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:47pm

re: #81 gmsc

James Burke rules: Tomorrow's Burke

125 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:12pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

It's to rate comments with, usually people hit the plus button if they strongly like what was said, or agree with it, or it it was especially erudite, or whatever. People hit the minus usually only when people are being assholish. If you get too many down dings people might make the assumption that you are troll, and you could catch fire on even an innocuous comment.

126 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:17pm

re: #111 phoenixgirl

i think he forgot his sarc tag

In conjunction with his previous comment, I don't care.

127 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:18pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

The +/- is for other people to either support your comment (upding) or register that your comment is complete crap (downding). If you click on your avatar under the Karma it gives your total score for all your comments. You can click on your score for any comment to see who gave you a ding either way.

128 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:20pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

They determine your "karma" points. You cannot upding (+) or downding(-) your own posts, only those of others.

When anyone clicks your avatar, they can see the grand total of your updings and downdings, and get an idea of what kind of influence you've had on the board. For example, if you've been updinged 700 times, and downdinged 45 times, your karma will show as 655 (700-45).

129 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:41pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

Too many minuses will give you terrible karma.

130 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:49pm

re: #102 MandyManners

Well you said it more succinctly than me!

131 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:52pm
132 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:03pm

re: #114 ploome hineni

Which one?

133 Right mind left  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:18pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

#89, too - I agree with the upthread responses to this!

PUBLIC Education in the US has a responsibility to teach a generic curriculum that must be based on the most current information available to further higher learning and functioning for our citizens. The Constitution was clear about keeping religion free to all but private, that the government cannot mandate or allow any religious infiltration into the agenda.

Darwin happens to be responsible for a huge segment of biological discovery that furthers a wide aspect of science. While the argument is that it is still 'theoretical', the substance of the suggested alternatives are clearly fraught with religious agenda and that is what is unconstitutional.

Should parents want their children to understand an alternative to the widely accepted current science then it is their prerogative to provide them with theological curriculum through their church or at home.

I sent my older boys to a Christian school when they were very young and the private school was clear that they were teaching this ID in their curriculum. I was aware that they firmly believed in this so I had to teach my kids that what they were learning was one way of looking at things to support the Bible teachings.

The suggested "debate" that the ID proponents want to inject in our public schools is against the separation of Church and State in our Constitution primarily because there is not scientific-method evidence to support the "issues" they want to debate. It would be a theological debate.

I'm watching a PBS show on Theologians under Hitler, that feeds into this a bit...

134 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:21pm

re: #122 Sharmuta

Why are you opposed to discussing evolution?

Because his head is stuck in the cupboard and he can't see?

135 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:43pm

re: #129 Sharmuta

Too many minuses will give you terrible karma.

And can affect your eBay feedback.

136 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:01pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-
Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

You are taken out to the woodpile and beaten savagely by a couple of pissed off lizards.
LOL.

137 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:02pm

re: #116 Moe Katz

This is in the USA?

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

138 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:21pm

re: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Wow!

139 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:22pm

re: #98 OldLineTexan

I'm not talking about political conservatives. I was referring to religious conservatives who try to force schoolchildren to be fundamentalist Christians.

140 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:23pm

Time for dinner! I'll be back later.

141 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:43pm

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans

I've enjoyed Hobbes on other threads, so I'm curious as to why this topic is of no interest to him/her.

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:47pm

re: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Kenmore, eh?

143 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:31:07pm

re: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Ha. Our new stovetop has been off every evening this week.

We must be like seven times more Jewish than you.

/////////

144 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:11pm

re: #99 MandyManners

It would put those students WAY behind when they got to college.

Well, not. Teaching the facts that support the theory of evolution will go a long way towards resolving this as a political conflict, while providing a basis for advanced studies. With our current public educational system, we'd be lucky if students coming out of high school know any basic science, much less have an understanding of less practical concepts like cosmology and evolution.

145 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:17pm

re: #120 Timbre

Joe, you are probably not as religiously conservative as the people to whom I am referring. I'm talking about people who ignore the First Amendment by holding strategy meetings to try and come up with ways to have Congress or the Courts create an establishment of religion--namely, fundamentalist Christianity. I know this because they called me once back in the 80's and I attended one of their "prayer breakfasts" without knowing what their agenda really was. The prayer breakfast was entirely politics: how to make America one large fundamentalist church.

If that is you, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend; just point out the real goal of these people.

I, too, am a "fundamentalist Christian" which really means that I hold to the fundamental truths of Christianity, the generally accepted truths. It is, unfortunately, a phrase which has been hijacked by the MSM and given a bad connotation. Most of us understand when that phrase is used the speaker is talking about those who have extreme political agendas but, it is still somewhat irritating.

146 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:19pm

re: #138 Moe Katz

Wow!

Neglected to say, "everything're: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Everything's up to date in Kansas City.

147 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:29pm

re: #141 Sharmuta

I've enjoyed Hobbes on other threads, so I'm curious as to why this topic is of no interest to him/her.

Fair enough. Not all threads are to everyone's liking.

148 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:33:05pm

re: #139 Timbre

I'm not talking about political conservatives. I was referring to religious conservatives who try to force schoolchildren to be fundamentalist Christians.

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

149 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:34:08pm

re: #138 Moe Katz

Wow!

It's actually kinda cool, it must be a pain in the tucchis (sp?) to pull the stove out and unplug it every shabbat.

150 i poop u scoop  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:34:08pm

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.

151 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:34:26pm

re: #144 Dar ul Harb

Well, not. Teaching the facts that support the theory of evolution we'd be lucky if students coming out of high school know any basic science, much less have an understanding of less practical concepts like cosmology and evolution.

Our public schools are mess, but that isn't a good reason to teach gibberish. It will interfere with what little the little darlings learned.

152 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:00pm

re: #144 Dar ul Harb

Well, not. Teaching the facts that support the theory of evolution will go a long way towards resolving this as a political conflict, while providing a basis for advanced studies. With our current public educational system, we'd be lucky if students coming out of high school know any basic science, much less have an understanding of less practical concepts like cosmology and evolution.

I don't know about that. I have two high school sons. Youngest son is a self-avowed nerd. His science skills way out class the skills I had at his age, and I ended up making a living in science. In middle school a teach did "teach the controversy" regarding evolution and my son came home very proud that he had debated this teach and felt he had won.

153 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:11pm

re: #151 Haverwilde

Our public schools are mess, but that isn't a good reason to teach gibberish. It will interfere with what little the little darlings learned.

Global warming, for example.

/

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:35pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

Thank the Left collectively for all the slipping of meanings going on. When they hear something they don't like they just change the meaning to suit their own purposes; mostly so they can be declared triumphant in their own minds in everything within human endeavor.

155 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:40pm

re: #120 Timbre

Joe, you are probably not as religiously conservative as the people to whom I am referring. I'm talking about people who ignore the First Amendment by holding strategy meetings to try and come up with ways to have Congress or the Courts create an establishment of religion--namely, fundamentalist Christianity. I know this because they called me once back in the 80's and I attended one of their "prayer breakfasts" without knowing what their agenda really was. The prayer breakfast was entirely politics: how to make America one large fundamentalist church.

If that is you, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend; just point out the real goal of these people.

No offense taken.

I also am a fundamentalist Christian in the sense that my religious beliefs are based on fundamental principles found in biblical scholarship.

I am also a constitutionalist politically in that we should first try to follow the fundamental principles of societal organization as outlined by the document.

I recognize the organization of my religious order separate from the organization of the country in which I am blessed to practice my religion.

The coordination of these two systems is simple: I do not try to force my religion into government action and, hopefully, they refrain from forcing government action into my religion.

Joe

156 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:58pm

re: #104 Thanos

Because due to the ever-widening field of epigenetics it's near impossible to teach any biology without some requisite evolutionary background.

Hey, I'm not saying evolution is not important in biology, as a discipline. It's clearly central to what biologists do, whether they're of the "indoor" or "outdoor" variety. The question, as I view it, is what high school students need to know in order to be informed voters on scientific policy issues (presuming they don't go on to college).

157 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:58pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan
I'd have to agree. You can be a religous conservative and be conservative in speech, dress, etc...Not be a supporter of ID.

158 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:03pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

That's why I always try to specify the specific culprits in this particular case it's Discovery Institute, backed by the $$$$$$$ of Dominionist Howard Ahmanson.

159 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:11pm

re: #149 Thanos

It's actually kinda cool, it must be a pain in the tucchis (sp?) to pull the stove out and unplug it every shabbat.

I spell it tuchus, but I don't imagine there any hard-and-fast rules about spelling Yiddish in English. It's impossible for me to imagine being that observant anyway :)

160 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:16pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.

Only Lord Charles, the Big Lizard in the sky can delete your comments or ban you. The rest of us can only down-ding. However if you do run into Mandy Manners, she can "clue by four" you.

161 Right mind left  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:39pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.


Well, I am new too, but from what I have gathered, down dings require you to buy everyone drinks. If you don't then you are banished if you have negative karma by everyone doing some form of ***GAZE***(see LGF dictionary)

162 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:40pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.

All it means is whether your comments are popular or not, nothing else.

163 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #145 theparson

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

164 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:38:32pm
165 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:38:54pm

re: #153 OldLineTexan
They never get around to the fact that in geologic terms we just came out of an ice age! Maybe it is supposed to warm up before the next one starts. Can't remember who said it but it is appropriate..."Civilization is the period between ice ages".

166 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:39:31pm

re: #163 Timbre

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

Heh. "Supremacist" has pretty well been shaped as a pejorative. I don't think you'd confuse me with that. ;)

167 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:39:37pm

re: #164 ploome hineni

no one would pull the plug on a stove because it was shabbos'

he is just using both yiddish words he knows

Isn't Thanos a person of gender?

168 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:39:55pm

re: #155 VibeManJoe

In my opinion, you are a thinking person with well-defined ideas.

169 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:40:14pm
170 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:40:15pm

re: #164 ploome hineni

you are making me all schpillkess now. I read a lot of Asimov and Ellison as a kid.

171 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:40:20pm

re: #145 theparson

I agree with theparson. How is your son, by the way?

172 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:30pm

re: #169 ploome hineni
Mwahaha. Nope. Everybody has one. I think some congress critters have another where their brains were.

173 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:31pm

re: #153 OldLineTexan

Global warming, for example.

/

Amen, and speaking of global warming, interesting things happening on that cold front. [Link: epw.senate.gov...]

174 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:36pm

re: #163 Timbre

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

No need to apologize to me (but thanks anyway). I don't expect anyone to tiptoe around for me. I'm not that sensitive. However, I do reserve the right to explain (as I just did) to those who use those phrases. In short, no offense taken.

175 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:48pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.


Well, kinda sorta. If you get TOO controversial, the devils and he angels might have a taffy-pulling contest with you in the middle. The numbers are just a means for the spectators to cheer on their favorite team, and also to add their own thumbs-up or thumbs-down to the fray.

Of course if someone turns out to be a real turkey, Charles might step in and trip the guillotine. This is also an uncomplicated method for Charles to get up to speed on troublemakers, first thing in the morning.
.

176 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:42:30pm

re: #152 big steve

In middle school a teach did "teach the controversy" regarding evolution and my son came home very proud that he had debated this teach and felt he had won.

Well, that would seem to argue for opening up a debate, but we don't want individual public school teachers to be injecting their own religious views into the classroom clearly.

177 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:43:29pm

re: #171 favorednation

I agree with theparson. How is your son, by the way?

He's doing well. Just reinlisted in the Navy for four more years. Makes the old man proud!

178 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:05pm
179 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:39pm

Good for him! Things here will be "hopefully" looking up by the end of 4yrs.

180 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:40pm

re: #177 theparson

He's doing well. Just reinlisted in the Navy for four more years. Makes the old man proud!

A tip of my dixie cup to the young man.

181 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:42pm

re: #177 theparson
Congratulations and a Hearty Well Done to your son.

182 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:47pm

re: #164 ploome hineni

no one would pull the plug on a stove because it was shabbos'

he is just using both yiddish words he knows

If the stove were computerized with an LED clock, yes some conservative Jews would pull the plug or otherwise switch it off.


Orthodox and some Conservative authorities rule that it is prohibited to turn electric devices on or off as falling under one of the "39 categories of work (melachot)". However, the authorities are not in agreement about exactly which category (or categories) this would fall under. One view is that tiny sparks are created in a switch when the circuit is closed, and this would constitute "lighting a fire" (category 37). If the appliance is one whose purpose is for light or heat (such as an incandescent lightbulb or electric oven) then the lighting or heating elements may be considered as a type of fire; if so, then turning them on constitutes both "lighting a fire" (category 37) and "cooking" (a form of baking, category 11), and turning them off would be "extinguishing a fire" (category 36).

Another view is that a device which is plugged into an electrical outlet of a wall becomes part of the building, but is nonfunctional while the switch is off; turning it on would then constitute "building" and turning it off would be "demolishing" (categories 35 and 34). Some schools of thought consider the use of electricity to be forbidden only by rabbinic injunction, rather than because it violates of one of the original categories.

183 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:51pm

re: #178 ploome hineni

you have a son in the Navy?

I do. He's on the Nebraska (sub).

184 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:54pm

re: #177 theparson

Are you an elder in the church of Christ?

185 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:13pm

Lynn B. must be taking Salamantis's shift on this thread. She's lurking and dinging.

186 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:22pm
187 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:36pm

re: #176 Dar ul Harb

Well, that would seem to argue for opening up a debate, but we don't want individual public school teachers to be injecting their own religious views into the classroom clearly.

Sure- we should also open up history class and allow for teaching the controversy on the Holocaust.

The fact is- there is no controversy. The only people pushing the "controversy" meme *oddly* are the people profiting off it.

188 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:37pm

re: #184 MandyManners

Are you an elder in the church of Christ?

I am an elder in the church of life..it just means less sex and more arthritis..heh

189 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:45pm

re: #184 MandyManners

Are you an elder in the church of Christ?

No, I'm Ordained in the AG.

190 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:56pm

re: #186 ploome hineni

cool


Mandy is that your denom?

Huh?

191 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:59pm

re: #176 Dar ul Harb

Well, that would seem to argue for opening up a debate, but we don't want individual public school teachers to be injecting their own religious views into the classroom clearly.

I got to admit to being of two minds here. I am not religious and believe that evolution is well proven. If it were as simple as teaching a controversy or just letting evolution sort of self prove itself, I would be ok with that. However, what people really want to do is not teach the controversy, they want to provide alternatives that, at the basics, are metaphysical and not science.

192 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:08pm
193 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:14pm

re: #188 joecitizen

I am an elder in the church of life..it just means less sex and more arthritis..heh

LOL!

194 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:27pm

re: #102 MandyManners

Fuck you.

And the horse you rode in on!

195 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:32pm

re: #189 theparson

No, I'm Ordained in the AG.

I'm sorry. I had you confused with another Lizard.

196 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:49pm

re: #192 ploome hineni

hahahahahah

hehehe

people never cease to amaze

The Wrecking Crew (not the studio musican ones).

197 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:50pm

re: #185 Moe Katz
How can you tell? I haven't seen anyone get a down ding, looking back up the thread, that is.

198 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:03pm

re: #188 joecitizen

I am an elder in the church of life..it just means less sex and more arthritis..heh


Dang, is THAT was causes arthritis? Hmmm. Let's see, now...
.

199 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:03pm

re: #194 Hobbes

And the horse you rode in on!

I picture him on an ostrich.

200 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:13pm
201 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:53pm

The problem with 'teaching the controversy' is that it adds legitimacy to that position. Using the logic of the IDers we could also discuss why it would be appropriate to reestablish slavery, or the legitimacy of the earth being flat

202 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:01pm

re: #200 ploome hineni

denomination?

what is AG, Parson?

Assemblies of God

203 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:01pm

re: #197 pingjockey

Reload. I got two downdings from Lynn :)

204 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:29pm

re: #192 ploome hineni

hahahahahah

hehehe

people never cease to amaze

When they do cease how boring things will be

205 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:40pm

re: #203 Moe Katz
Aha! Thanks learned something new.

206 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:41pm
207 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:50:45pm

re: #203 Moe Katz

Reload. I got two downdings from Lynn :)

Don't worry. I've got more downdings than Carter's got pills.

208 SpaceJesus[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:50:46pm
209 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:50:56pm
210 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:08pm

re: #203 Moe Katz

Reload. I got two downdings from Lynn :)

Or just click on any ding number and if there is a change it will be updated without having to reload the whole page.

211 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:13pm

re: #122 Sharmuta

Why are you opposed to discussing evolution?

It's a no win situation with emotions at a level I just can't share.

212 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:18pm

re: #207 theparson

Don't worry. I've got more downdings than Carter's got pills.

Well I was hoping to trade my karma points for Green Stamps.

213 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:40pm
214 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:58pm

re: #209 ploome hineni

oh no

they do not amaze in any wonderful way

just depressing how petty and vain some are

Even petty and vain is amazing in its own perverted way.

215 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:59pm

re: #203 Moe Katz
Okay, now to show how really damn dumb I am, how do you know or find out who updinged or down dinged you?

216 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:03pm

re: #163 Timbre

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

217 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:09pm

re: #206 ploome hineni

my Father would watch that TV program every Sunday......about 30 yrs ago?

www.ag.org This one.

218 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:22pm
219 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:25pm

re: #215 pingjockey

Okay, now to show how really damn dumb I am, how do you know or find out who updinged or down dinged you?

Click the number; you get a list.

220 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:26pm

re: #208 SpaceJesus
WHACK!

221 Basho  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #215 pingjockey

Okay, now to show how really damn dumb I am, how do you know or find out who updinged or down dinged you?

Click on the number.

222 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:52pm

Only three down dings on this thread. What is this? Capitulation? Creationist night at the movies?

223 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:57pm

re: #213 ploome hineni

how am I doing?

You're okay so far :)

224 notutopia  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:12pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
There are 254 counties in Texas.
I am going to send emails to Montgomery and Brazoria County Representatives, and to the School Board of both, as I own property there.

Are there any other Lizards that live or own property in Texas that feel that our taxpaying voice needs to be considered in choosing Textbooks that are not keeping the courts wishes of separation of church and state by suggesting ID in it's curriculum?

We have until Jan. to decide the future of the science curriculum in Tx. and to stop this encroachment and set presidence to the rest of the nation that we do not want creationism, ID or evolution taught in our lower and middle school science curriculum.

225 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:14pm

re: #130 pingjockey

Well you said it more succinctly than me!

Yes she did!

226 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:17pm

re: #201 Haverwilde

The problem with 'teaching the controversy' is that it adds legitimacy to that position. Using the logic of the IDers we could also discuss why it would be appropriate to reestablish slavery, or the legitimacy of the earth being flat

Indeed. Which is why I've continued to bring up Holocaust denial in history class as a comparison. That's the gist of ID- it's evolution denial. Just because creationists reject the facts of biology doesn't mean they're right, just like Holocaust denial doesn't change the facts of history.

This is a very dangerous, slippery slope. I'm surprised that even those who might not accept evolution would be so incapable of seeing the possibility of unintended consequences from this agenda.

227 Timbre[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:32pm
228 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:35pm

re: #219 OldLineTexan
Thanks. Some stuff gets by me sometimes.

229 joecitizen[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:39pm
230 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:49pm
231 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:54pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

Good point. And to me the evolution/DI issue isn't even about Christianity per se, but rather about any religious group which tries to hijack the science curriculum and impose their views on other people's children. Including the anti-evolution Islamists.
How about the phrases "religious whacko zealots" or "religious extremist nutjobs"?

232 Racer X[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:59pm
233 Haverwilde[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:13pm
234 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:33pm

re: #216 Salamantis

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

Doesn't work because that's what the Chicoms call almost any Christian.

235 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:41pm
236 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:48pm

DON'T QUOTE NASTY COMMENTS! Guys- come on!

237 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:53pm

re: #224 notutopia

Do you have it currently leased for oil & gas? :)

238 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:55:12pm
239 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:55:33pm

Quit quoting the troll. You're making more work for our host.

240 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:01pm
241 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:06pm

re: #109 Thanos

Speaking of that I just got around to reading the manual on my new stove, it has a Shabbath feature that turns off the computer inside automatically.

My new stove has that too.
And I'm not Jewish.

242 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:14pm

re: #226 Sharmuta
That is a very good analogy. Unintended consequences in untold numbers.

243 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:52pm

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans

Because his head is stuck in the cupboard and he can't see?

Nice talk, expert. Look above and you'll see my response to the reasonable question.

244 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:55pm

re: #236 Sharmuta

DON'T QUOTE NASTY COMMENTS! Guys- come on!

Just echoing this here. For newbies......if someone makes a particulary nasty comment and you want to respond it is better to use the reply and not the quote and therefore the nastiness doesn't get requoted. Also, as has just happened, Charles deleted comment 208 but by requoteing you are risking getting your comment deleted as well.

245 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:57:04pm

re: #241 reine.de.tout

My new stove has that too.
And I'm not Jewish.

I'm not Jewish either, but it's a cool feature. One that was never thought of when they dreamt up the first computer.

246 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:57:37pm

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?

247 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:14pm

re: #246 MandyManners
Yep. The fecal matter hit the rotary air impellor.

248 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:39pm

OT: If you haven't already read it, Jonah Goldberg hit one out of the park:

In an attempt to dial down expectations for his administration, President-elect Barack Obama’s supporters have dropped much of the “messiah” talk.

No more talk of him being The One (Oprah), or a Jedi Knight (George Lucas), or a “Lightworker” (the San Francisco Chronicle), or a “quantum leap in American consciousness” (Deepak Chopra). Instead we have more humble and circumspect conversation about the man. Now he’s merely Abraham Lincoln and FDR and Martin Luther King, combined.

It’s a step down from divine redeemer, but you have to start somewhere.

It gets better:

I was on Fox News the other night to throw some cold water on this Obama-as-Lincoln stuff. Alan Colmes of Hannity & Colmes chastised me, asking if we shouldn’t give Obama “a chance to actually spread his wings and fly a little bit” before disparaging him.

Fine. I actually agree with that. Conservatives should not denounce Obama’s performance before he’s had a chance to, you know, perform.

But, shouldn’t we also hold off on comparing the guy to FDR and Lincoln before he’s done anything?

Obama hasn’t even taken the oath of office yet, and it’s already an unfair right-wing attack to say that Obama isn’t on par with Lincoln and FDR. What’s next? Will it be slander to say Obama’s a carbon-based life form? Will the Secret Service investigate you if you’re overheard saying you think Obama’s merely “OK”?

Go read the whole thing. :)

I happen to agree with him, btw: I think we should let Obama take office and actually do something with it before we start throwing figurative dead cats and rancid tomatoes.

Something that seems to be driving the moonbats around the bend (a short putt at most) is that Mr. Hope and Change is assembling Bill Clinton's third term. Heh.

249 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:51pm

re: #246 MandyManners

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?

Yes some jerk is giving us some "yo momma" comments and has already gotten a whack.

250 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:55pm

re: #243 Hobbes

Nice talk, expert. Look above and you'll see my response to the reasonable question.

Sarcasm is not your strong suit, eh?

251 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:59:37pm

re: #240 ploome hineni
The comment did disappear fast. Interesing. When I wrote it I thought the lizards would make quick work of eviscerating him.

252 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:59:48pm

Salamantis has appeared. We have the entire squad assembled.

253 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:00:07pm

re: #242 pingjockey

That is a very good analogy. Unintended consequences in untold numbers.

Thanks, ping. I think I shall demand we teach the controversy in grammar class.

Ending sentences with prepositions is something with which we should put up. ;)

254 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:00:22pm

Heyzuese is just using the big kid words he learned on the playground today.

255 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:00:33pm
256 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:19pm

re: #216 Salamantis

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

"Imperial" seems a tad overdone.

"Biblical literalist" I can understand.

257 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:21pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Heh.

258 B52 Pizza[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:21pm
259 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:29pm

It's 30 degrees here in November. Dang that global warming!

260 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #216 Salamantis

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

I used to be that way until it began to dawn on me that if I knew everything there was to know about religion, or the Bible, or God, or whatever, then I was saying that I had universal knowledge of that subject. Since it is a fundamental belief that God is all-encompassing that could only mean that I knew everything as well. That would make me equal to God, at least when it comes to knowledge. That is not a position from which i could ague with any success. Therefore, there must be things I either do not know or I know imperfectly. My quest is to reveal those in such a way that I am not supremely embarrassed by something I may have said in the past. I also attempt to avoid making statements that have a high potential of eventual embarrassment. I fail, often, at both.

Oh well....

Joe

261 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:56pm

re: #255 ploome hineni

lol

He's late.

262 zelnaga  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:56pm

Evolution has its problems, but then again, so does gravity. Why is gravity such a weak force?

In my Astronomy class in high school, the fact that the universe is expanding was discussed, yet the teacher didn't pose the fact that "[url=[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] energy of the vacuum [doesn't] cause a large cosmological constant[/url]" as a problem.

Evolution should not be getting special treatment and problems within it are beyond the scope of most grade-school classes, imho.

263 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:04pm

Damn, I already missed the deletion!

264 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:13pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

Sure- we should also open up history class and allow for teaching the controversy on the Holocaust.

The fact is- there is no controversy. The only people pushing the "controversy" meme *oddly* are the people profiting off it.

True enough. There is no serious scientific controversy here. Nor have I suggested that the curriculum should ignore facts or subjects that are the supporting evidence for the central theory of biology. What there is is a political controversy. And I'm proposing a political resolution.

I was going to try to follow your analogy, but you apparently missed the point of what I was saying in the comment you quoted. (And my previous comments besides.)

265 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:14pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Thanks, ping. I think I shall demand we teach the controversy in grammar class.

Ending sentences with prepositions is something with which we should put up. ;)

I think you are clearly violating the rights of all prepositions to be last; and I will just leave that comment as is.

266 notutopia  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:24pm

I'm ACTING on this encroachment and I'm emailing my letters and I'm going to bed, Night all.
WALK YOUR TALK LIZARDS!
:0

267 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:39pm

I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?

268 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:40pm

re: #259 theparson

Yep and I think it's gonna get to 28 here in pp.

269 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:03:45pm

Yikes. Spacejesus exploded or something?

270 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:03:59pm

re: #246 MandyManners

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?

Tell me about it. I took out the trash, and when I got back...

271 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:04:39pm

re: #246 MandyManners

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?


Yup. We were giving a practical demonstration to newbies of what the numbering system means, as well as showing off Charles' expertise on the guillotine trip-wire.

ZZZZZTT--WHOP! (Cheers) Just like back in France, in the good old days.
.

272 Jim D  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:04:56pm

re: #191 big steve

There is no controversy to teach.

273 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:04:57pm

re: #269 Dar ul Harb
Black holes turn up in the damndest places.

274 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:05:13pm

re: #268 favorednation

Yep and I think it's gonna get to 28 here in pp.

By pp do you mean the PP north of A and south of T?

275 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:05:42pm

re: #268 favorednation

Yep and I think it's gonna get to 28 here in pp.

We had a windchill of 3 and a temp of 12 last night. Supposed to be 16 tonight. A little global warming sure would be nice for the deer opener tomorrow.

276 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:05:52pm

re: #274 theparson

yup

277 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:02pm

Another idiot on deck...

278 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:10pm

re: #267 Emphasis

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant?


Self preservation is not the predominant drive for life. Reproduction is. It's the reason teenage boys do stupid things to impress girls.

279 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:23pm

re: #262 zelnaga

Evolution has its problems, but then again, so does gravity. Why is gravity such a weak force?


Evolution should not be getting special treatment and problems within it are beyond the scope of most grade-school classes, imho.

This is a very good point. As you mention on basic theories such as gravity, or even the laws of thermodynamics there are unsettling questions. For example, Maxwell's equations predict that something called a magnetic monopole must exist yet it has not been found. However at the grade school and even high school level, this is not the intent. In science at this level, one is trying to ground students in the basics and teach them how to use these theories to build scientific structure.

280 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:42pm

re: #276 favorednation

yup

Well bust my britches! How'd you know I was in A?

281 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:51pm

re: #259 theparson

It's 30 degrees here in November. Dang that global warming!


It's about 5 above here in Anchorage, Parson. GOOD LORD, it's cold!

:-)
.

282 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:16pm

re: #278 Neo Con since 9-11

Self preservation is not the predominant drive for life. Reproduction is. It's the reason teenage boys do stupid things to impress girls.

and the girls fall for it.

283 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:37pm

re: #275 logboy

I haven't had a chance to hunt this year. I need to find a place. All my knives are sharp and I bought a new grinder so I'm ready if I get one. :)

284 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:38pm

re: #267 Emphasis

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant?

I would think reproduction as a means of self-preservation would be evident enough.

285 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:42pm

re: #269 Dar ul Harb

Yikes. Spacejesus exploded or something?

Implosion from the hard vacuum between the ears.

286 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:44pm

re: #256 OldLineTexan

"Imperial" seems a tad overdone.

"Biblical literalist" I can understand.

Well, the problem isn't with Biblical literalists per se, since there is freedom of religion in this country; it is with that subset of them that strives to illegitimately and unconstitutionally force their particular sectarian religious dogmas onto other peoples' kids in public high school science classes. That sounds kinda imperialistic, or hegemonistic, to me. Maybe 'coercive' would be an acceptable adjective.

287 B52 Pizza[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:55pm
288 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:08:07pm

re: #280 theparson

What if I said "God told me" ? :)

289 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:08:12pm

re: #277 Noam Sayin'

Another idiot on deck...

Thats Mr. Idiot, tyvm.

290 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:24pm

re: #283 favorednation

I haven't had a chance to hunt this year. I need to find a place. All my knives are sharp and I bought a new grinder so I'm ready if I get one. :)


Where do you live? Farmers usually let you hunt their land.

291 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:39pm

re: #191 big steve

I got to admit to being of two minds here. I am not religious and believe that evolution is well proven. If it were as simple as teaching a controversy or just letting evolution sort of self prove itself, I would be ok with that. However, what people really want to do is not teach the controversy, they want to provide alternatives that, at the basics, are metaphysical and not science.

The only controversy is why people are trying to mask religion as science and are trying to wedge it into the school science curriculum.

292 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:45pm

Dear Sharmuta...Look at all the deletes. This is why I stay out of these discussions.

293 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:45pm

re: #286 Salamantis

[...] that subset of them that strives to illegitimately and unconstitutionally force their particular sectarian religious dogmas onto other peoples' kids in public high school science classes [...]

Theocratic evangelists?

294 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:10:22pm

I was on here with another name for a few years 'til I figured out that name was not an accurate portreyal. I'm kinda slow about those things.

295 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:10:48pm

re: #293 Dan G.

Theocratic evangelists?

Theocratic...very descriptive. What does "evangelist" have to do with it?

296 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:10:57pm

re: #288 favorednation

What if I said "God told me" ? :)


Call me... skeptical.

297 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:04pm

re: #262 zelnaga

Gravity is a bitch. My exercise regimen now includes climbing a 2 thousand foot mountain.

298 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:25pm

re: #290 logboy

You have to pay for that privelage where I live and good land is hard to get. There's a waiting list to hunt.

299 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:29pm

re: #287 B52 Pizza

Guess the Christian church isn't so lacking in knowledge.

Where did Haverwilde say they were?

BTW- the Catholic Church supports the teachings of evolution.

300 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:49pm

re: #295 OldLineTexan

I understand evangelism as the active spread of religion. The theocratic descriptor differentiates it from the private/non-political form.

301 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:51pm

Gravity sucks. Good thing too.

302 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:15pm

re: #287 B52 Pizza

Give me a break! It was the Christian movement that led to the slave industry ending in England in the early to mid 1800's.

As far as the Earth being flat the book of "Isaiah" in the Bible defined the Earth being Round. That was written 690 years BC.

Guess the Christian church isn't so lacking in knowledge.

(Glass breaking) "How dare I say that!"

But isn't okay to discuss the controversy? I mean after all, one bovine scat topic has the same legitimacy as any other one?

303 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:26pm

re: #262 zelnaga

Evolution has its problems, but then again, so does gravity. Why is gravity such a weak force?

Jump off a building and see how weak it is.

304 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:28pm

Alright, I'm seriously beginning to think Charles makes these threads just to weed out the loonies and entertain the rest of us with their behavior. Admit it, they are pretty damn funny to listen to.

305 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:41pm

re: #275 logboy

What, is Al Gore giving a lecture in your neighborhood?

306 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:50pm

re: #250 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sarcasm is not your strong suit, eh?

I didn't say that.

307 B52 Pizza[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:52pm
308 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:57pm

re: #294 favorednation

I was on here with another name for a few years 'til I figured out that name was not an accurate portreyal. I'm kinda slow about those things.

Gotcha! We used to time the train from your city to mine. We need to have coffee sometime.

309 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:12pm

re: #300 Dan G.

I understand evangelism as the active spread of religion. The theocratic descriptor differentiates it from the private/non-political form.

ID/Creationism is not the Gospel.

310 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:16pm

re: #296 theparson

If you recall, a few years ago I was taking a job out of town and had to give away all my potted tomato plants. You had mentioned that you were going to pick them up.

311 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:22pm

re: #287 B52 Pizza

Was that round or was that spherical? Two dimensions or three?

For that matter the earth really is an oblate spheroid, so is neither round nor spherical.

312 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:40pm

re: #301 pingjockey

Gravity sucks. Good thing too.

Lovely quote, may I borrow it?

313 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:44pm

re: #304 logboy

Alright, I'm seriously beginning to think Charles makes these threads just to weed out the loonies and entertain the rest of us with their behavior. Admit it, they are pretty damn funny to listen to.

FNDT.

314 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:51pm

re: #185 Moe Katz

Lynn B. must be taking Salamantis's shift on this thread. She's lurking and dinging.

Actually, I'm catching up. But don't let that interfere with your paranoid fantasies...

315 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:52pm

re: #301 pingjockey

Gravity sucks. Good thing too.

HA!

Why doesn't Texas slide into the Gulf?

'Cuz Oklahoma sucks!

/

316 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:59pm

re: #298 favorednation

You have to pay for that privelage where I live and good land is hard to get. There's a waiting list to hunt.

Colorado? where are you? Why not go to another state?

317 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:04pm

yup one just went by.

318 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:08pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Wow. You're a tolerant fellow aren't you?

319 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:11pm

re: #312 Haverwilde
Help yourself!

320 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:19pm

re: #292 Hobbes

Dear Hobbes- that's because people quoted one troll. Trolls should not be quoted. It had nothing to do with the subject matter either. I've seen other threads get higher deletions than this- and they weren't ID threads. It's usually because of troll nastiness (which can happen on any thread any time) and people using "quote" over "reply".

321 B52 Pizza[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:24pm
322 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:26pm

There's lots of controversies within the science of evolutionary biology, but the particular book that Discovery institute is pimping doesn't explore any of those. Instead it puts forth the standard quibbles designed to discredit the theory en toto that appear on pages in AIG, ICR, and their websites, all debunked.

323 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:48pm

Charles is listening to "The Goodbye Look" again.

I happen to like The Nightfly. The story of "The Goodbye Look" would make a fine short story, if it weren't already a pretty fair song.

324 moogie  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:59pm

WOW! I finally was able to sign up tonight after 4 years! Thanks so much everyone for being there for all us silent ones during the election. Now that I can post, I really look forward to entering in when I can.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!

325 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:01pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Now, that's just nasty.

326 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:09pm

re: #305 Steffan

What, is Al Gore giving a lecture in your neighborhood?

//Yes, he's telling everyone how he's setting the example with his energy bill.

327 Charles  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:13pm

Won't you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?

328 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:14pm

re: #267 Emphasis

I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:
If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?

I respect your need to believe in a supreme being as the programmer.
Just keep your religious views out of the science classroom and respect others' right to learn science without religious harassment.

329 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:15pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

B52 Pizza
Karma: -5
Registered since: Nov 21, 2008 at 6:18 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 4

/good work, expecting to live past ten?

330 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:25pm

out of state liscenses are EXPENSIVE. I'm in the Lonestar State.

331 B52 Pizza[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:48pm
332 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:50pm

re: #310 favorednation

If you recall, a few years ago I was taking a job out of town and had to give away all my potted tomato plants. You had mentioned that you were going to pick them up.

I do remember. By the way, here comes the train. LOL
I gotta go to bed. If you come by the Police Station I'll buy the coffee.

333 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Well for you information I can't be a Catholic because I can't drink that much.

Catholic joke:

Why do you always take two Baptists fishing?

Because if you take only one, he'll drink all your beer!

334 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #315 OldLineTexan
I've heard that from some Texas Navy guys.

335 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:55pm

The Door is open?

336 legalpad  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:57pm

re: #297 rawmuse

Gravity is a bitch. My exercise regimen now includes climbing a 2 thousand foot mountain.

What - like everyday?

337 AMER1CAN  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:59pm

I had a great biology teacher when I use to be in school. Really loved her class. She was an excellent professor. First biology class of the year we spent about 3 minutes covering religious views and that were not here to insult anyone views, but we are here to learn biology. Then we never talked about religion again. We spent each and every day learning and studying biology and I must say it is awesome and fascinating. Wonderful learning experience!

338 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:07pm

re: #309 OldLineTexan

The wedge document states that their fundamental goal to to "bring people to Jesus". Isn't that the basis for evangelism? (honest question, not trolling).

339 leap  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:22pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

See?
One learns fast around here.
:D

340 Jim D  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:23pm

re: #279 Big Steve

For example, Maxwell's equations predict that something called a magnetic monopole must exist yet it has not been found.

They don't predict this. The equation that states that the divergence of the magnetic field is zero means there is no monopole.

341 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:25pm

re: #314 Lynn B.

Actually, I'm catching up. But don't let that interfere with your paranoid fantasies...

Ha, so you're late too! A sad showing my dear. You know there's deviant thought out here to extirpate.

342 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:26pm

re: #267 Emphasis

I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?

Genes code for the instincts to reproduce, and to guard and nurture young in some cases (in others, such as salmon spawning, guarding young is not part of the process - they deal with differing environmental circumstances that do not require such mechanisms). The genes that code, for instance in mammals and birds, for guarding and nurturing, were environmentally selected. Those genes that did not code for this, in species where guarding and nurturing is critical for surviving to reproductive age, did not produce offspring containing them that themselves survived long enough to reproduce, and thus those genes died out.

343 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:28pm

re: #324 moogie

WOW! I finally was able to sign up tonight after 4 years! Thanks so much everyone for being there for all us silent ones during the election. Now that I can post, I really look forward to entering in when I can.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!


Did Charles just open the flood gates again?

344 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:36pm

re: #327 Charles

Won't you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?

I like a Cuba Libre!

345 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:20pm

Oh, and the gate is open I see.

This should be interesting.

346 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:28pm

re: #337 AMER1CAN

I had a great biology teacher when I use to be in school. Really loved her class. She was an excellent professor. First biology class of the year we spent about 3 minutes covering religious views and that were not here to insult anyone views, but we are here to learn biology. Then we never talked about religion again. We spent each and every day learning and studying biology and I must say it is awesome and fascinating. Wonderful learning experience!

That was a good way to approach the issue.

347 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:29pm

re: #324 moogie

WOW! I finally was able to sign up tonight after 4 years! Thanks so much everyone for being there for all us silent ones during the election. Now that I can post, I really look forward to entering in when I can.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!

Welcome, is reg open?

348 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:56pm

re: #331 B52 Pizza

Glad you cleared that up.

Now if the Earth was flat would it be 1 or 2 dimensional?

Flat is 2.

Linear is 1.

349 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:56pm

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS as a good way to classify and organize organisms. I never considered it as a continuum of development. It the latter is true, then, what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

350 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:21pm

re: #322 Thanos

And I'm not sure I'd call them controversies (at least if you are referring to unsolved questions). Such as how epigenetic marks are differentially communicated during asymmetric division (i.e. stem cell differentiation). It isn't so much a controversy as an unresolved issue; it won't contradict what is already known...

351 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:24pm

re: #331 B52 Pizza

Glad you cleared that up.

Now if the Earth was flat would it be 1 or 2 dimensional?

Two for the length and breadth, but that is neither here nor there with regards to your prior statement since the Bible is not and never has been a science textbook.

352 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #332 theparson

OK. Are you on the force there?

353 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:42pm

re: #338 Dan G.

The wedge document states that their fundamental goal to to "bring people to Jesus". Isn't that the basis for evangelism? (honest question, not trolling).

If that's their fundamental goal, they're evangelizing.

Not a thing to do in a science classroom - and besides which, haven't they ever studied predestination?

354 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:51pm

re: #330 favorednation

out of state liscenses are EXPENSIVE. I'm in the Lonestar State.

Surprising, I thought you guys could hunt all over. Yeah the cost some $. Depends on how bad you want to hunt. We're pretty lucky here in WI, 3 deer tags are $26. Each extra tag (no limit) is $2. I shot three last year, been eating them ever since.

355 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:17pm

re: #347 Thanos

Welcome, is reg open?


That's unfair on an evolution thread. Some unsuspecting "conservative" hatchlings are going to walk into a trap.

356 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:19pm

re: #338 Dan G.

The wedge document states that their fundamental goal to to "bring people to Jesus". Isn't that the basis for evangelism? (honest question, not trolling).

What they are trying to do is not evangelism. No matter what they call it. You can't lie for Jesus, in the end.

357 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:22pm

re: #345 Dar ul Harb

Oh, and the gate is open I see.

This should be interesting.

The Chinese did define interesting when it comes to epochs.

358 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:29pm

re: #342 Salamantis

Genes code for the instincts to reproduce,

How does that work? You seem to know pretty much everything about these things. Is it akin to passing down a memory? That might explain Shirley MacLaine.

359 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:59pm

re: #333 OldLineTexan

Catholic joke:

Why do you always take two Baptists fishing?

Because if you take only one, he'll drink all your beer!

Hey, that's a Baptist joke, only its the mormons we take fishing.

360 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:14pm

re: #349 favorednation

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS [that's Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species, y'all -DuH] as a good way to classify and organize organisms.

361 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:20pm

re: #331 B52 Pizza

If it were just 1, wouldn't it be a singularity?

362 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:37pm

re: #352 favorednation

OK. Are you on the force there?

Yes. Senior Corporal. Stop by and we'll talk about Ploomie!
Night all.

363 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:44pm

re: #356 OldLineTexan

What they are trying to do is not evangelism. No matter what they call it. You can't lie for Jesus, in the end.

Try to explain that to the IDers and the Discovery Institute people and they won't listen.

364 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:46pm

re: #355 Killgore Trout
That could end up being a very nasty welcome.

365 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:56pm

re: #359 Haverwilde

Hey, that's a Baptist joke, only its the mormons we take fishing.

I thought it was a Mormon joke, only its the Muslims they take fishing.

366 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:04pm

re: #348 OldLineTexan

Flat is 2.

Linear is 1.

The "flat" earth would still be 3 dimensional. Mines have depth, f'r instance. It's not flatland.

367 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:09pm

re: #356 OldLineTexan

The tally thus far... It is evangelism: 1 ; It is not evangelism: 1.

;) No mater, the adjective Theocratic will follow them where ever I speak/write/think.

368 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:21pm

re: #327 Charles

Won't you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?

I believe someone who was posting on this thread just got The Goodbye Look.

369 moogie  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:29pm

Registration was open for me! Maybe it was just my luck because of the post on evolution (I have a degree in invert.paleo) - but I sure jumped at the chance to evolve on up! Thanks again!

370 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:30pm

re: #289 logboy

I wasn't talking about you. You knew that, right?

371 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:33pm

re: #350 Dan G.

And I'm not sure I'd call them controversies (at least if you are referring to unsolved questions). Such as how epigenetic marks are differentially communicated during asymmetric division (i.e. stem cell differentiation). It isn't so much a controversy as an unresolved issue; it won't contradict what is already known...

Agreed, but to the scientists debating them they are hot, exciting controversies. I'm merely pointing out that portraying science as groupthink is naive at best. There's lots of exploring already without the need of DI"s book.

372 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:52pm

re: #361 favorednation

I think you'd have to be 0 to be a singularity. Is that irony?

373 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:56pm

re: #359 Haverwilde

Hey, that's a Baptist joke, only its the mormons we take fishing.

I heard it from a Catholic.

Why don't Baptist couples make love standing up?

Someone might see and think they were dancing!

374 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:01pm

re: #355 Killgore Trout

That's unfair on an evolution thread. Some unsuspecting "conservative" hatchlings are going to walk into a trap.

Maybe thats the point?

Whenever Charles posts one of these threads, I'm reminded of one of my favorite lines from the movie Braveheart.

"The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. "

375 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:06pm

re: #366 Dianna

The "flat" earth would still be 3 dimensional. Mines have depth, f'r instance. It's not flatland.

Still finding nits, eh? ;)

376 AMER1CAN  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:19pm

re: #346 MandyManners

Yeah, she handled the religious stuff up front. Short, simple and to the point. Not much to talk about. Basically people have their own indvidual beliefs. That's great. Nuff said. But when in the classroom, we were there to learn biology. And that's what we did!

377 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:23pm

re: #362 theparson

Aright. Night!

378 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:25pm

re: #320 Sharmuta

Dear Hobbes- that's because people quoted one troll. Trolls should not be quoted. It had nothing to do with the subject matter either. I've seen other threads get higher deletions than this- and they weren't ID threads. It's usually because of troll nastiness (which can happen on any thread any time) and people using "quote" over "reply".

No Trolls should not be quoted! But, I should probably still stay out of these heated discussions. You guys get along fine without me.

379 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:37pm

re: #363 FurryOldGuyJeans

Try to explain that to the IDers and the Discovery Institute people and they won't listen.

OK. And?

380 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:23:51pm

re: #374 logboy

Maybe thats the point?

Whenever Charles posts one of these threads, I'm reminded of one of my favorite lines from the movie Braveheart.

"The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. "

Great point, great line, great movie.

381 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:15pm

re: #349 favorednation

what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

/biological efficiency in their environment

382 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:15pm

re: #358 Mich-again

How does that work? You seem to know pretty much everything about these things. Is it akin to passing down a memory? That might explain Shirley MacLaine.

I don't think there's a natural explanation for Shirley MacLaine! Seriously, it takes a sophisticated society with seriously padded edges to create a world where that variety of solipsism can exist, and not result in someone pinning one to a tree over-night with a pitchfork.

383 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:25pm

re: #374 logboy

He was by far the best character in a very good film...
Stephen - The Mad Irishman

384 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:30pm

re: #372 Killgore Trout

NO. 0 is "unique". It has been proven. :)

385 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:35pm

re: #370 Noam Sayin'

I wasn't talking about you. You knew that, right?

Of course I did. But I'm not about to pass up an opportunity to make someone laugh.

386 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:06pm

re: #361 favorednation

If it were just 1, wouldn't it be a singularity?

A singularity has no dimensions.

387 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:07pm

re: #381 Killian Bundy

OIC. So is each in it's own "VPN"?

388 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:19pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

That is a completely stupid and idiotic thing to say.

389 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:38pm

Down on Key Plantain, walk a tropical mile...Florida Room

390 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:42pm

re: #386 FurryOldGuyJeans

No dimensions or all?

391 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:09pm

re: #373 OldLineTexan

I heard it from a Catholic.

Why don't Baptist couples make love standing up?

Someone might see and think they were dancing!


There was that standard phrase we used when someone asked us to do something 'interesting:' "Why not, can't dance!"

392 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:12pm

re: #388 reine.de.tout

That is a completely stupid and idiotic thing to say.

Now, now, mon cher, no one's perfect, and "completely" implies perfection.

393 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:56pm

re: #379 OldLineTexan

OK. And?

And nothing else. Trying to enlighten hard-core religious fanaticism is counterproductive and unachievable.

394 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:57pm

re: #286 Salamantis

Well, the problem isn't with Biblical literalists per se, since there is freedom of religion in this country; it is with that subset of them that strives to illegitimately and unconstitutionally force their particular sectarian religious dogmas onto other peoples' kids in public high school science classes. That sounds kinda imperialistic, or hegemonistic, to me. Maybe 'coercive' would be an acceptable adjective.

Coercive is a great word and a very good descriptor. Those that attempt to push their beliefs onto those that do not want them, and I used to be one of them, are basically insecure in their beliefs and gain personal satisfaction by convincing others to change their beliefs based on a some logical or irrefutable argument. However, most Christianity accepts that the strength of faith comes from the Spiritual not from secular arguments. By trusting coercion rather than the spiritual we say that God can not instruct without our help. Once again, not a good position from which to argue.

The creation argument is interesting. Almost no other discussion seems to generate the animosity from both sides. However, I can believe in a creating God and measurable evolutionary principles. What I have great difficulty accepting is that because certain evolutionary principles are shown to be true using scientific inquiry, then I must completely abandon my belief that the organizer and originator of the measurable order may be God.

Yet, this is what the dogmatic on the evolutionary side seen to want. It causes many of us to become defensive and get our hackles up when something that is greatly personal and deeply felt is ridiculed. Granted, there are likely parts of the things that I believe that will be shown to be wrong. A am a big boy, and I can take it. Just don't be too condescending to me when you are right.

As to evolution in school...teach it as science, not as philosophy or anti-religion and you will get no argument from me. Demonstrate the principles with scientific method, show the facts, examine the data, just refrain from concluding by saying "See, this proves that what you believe is stupid." If your science is solid, I will see it without the insults. Eventually. Sometime.

Joe

395 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:03pm

re: #349 favorednation

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS as a good way to classify and organize organisms. I never considered it as a continuum of development. It the latter is true, then, what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

Actually it's not so good anymore, with the discoveries of the past two decades or so people have generally migrated to phylogenetic trees. To many cross boundary species for the old method, and genetics is allowing scientists to see actual ancestry rather than theorized now.

As to your question on why some critters don't evolve the answer is both simple and complex: they haven't evolved because they are efficient enough for the niche they are in now.

396 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:05pm

re: #388 reine.de.tout

It won't get a chance to repeat it.

397 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:12pm

re: #375 FurryOldGuyJeans

Still finding nits, eh? ;)

Not...exactly.

I'm home, I'm tired, I'm avoiding writing. I take what I can get.

And all Charles has offered me is asking if Gretchen won't pour him a Cuban Breeze.

398 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:17pm

re: #371 Thanos

And the closest thing to a controversy now is that perhaps DNA isn't the only source of "genes" (as originally defined... the unit of inheritance) since some epigenetic marks are heritable. No contradiction, but it will "feel" like one for some.

399 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:28pm

re: #311 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was that round or was that spherical? Two dimensions or three?

For that matter the earth really is an oblate spheroid, so is neither round nor spherical.

If you go far enough away, it's a blue dot. A pinpoint.

400 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:28pm

re: #382 Dianna

solipsism

If this were the ACT test I would have to guess that solipsism means idiocy.

401 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:48pm

re: #336 legalpad

So far for the last 2 weeks. I am sick of the gym. They have CNN and The View on and it is full of moon bats. So I started to drive to this mountain, and climbing it.

Now, I leave the car at home and walk there from my house. I usually do about 8 to 10 miles, and I carry a 12 pound pack with water and food.

The view has been outstanding lately.

402 fiat_lux  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:51pm

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

403 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:03pm

re: #390 favorednation

No dimensions or all?

In geometric terms:

A point (a singularity) has no dimension.

A line has one.

A plane has two.

404 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:19pm

re: #387 favorednation

OIC. So is each in it's own "VPN"?

/in the King's English?

405 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:22pm

re: #373 OldLineTexan

I heard it from a Catholic.

Why don't Baptist couples make love standing up?

Someone might see and think they were dancing!

Yes, this is the joke that really makes the rounds in Catholic circles.

406 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:23pm

re: #391 Haverwilde
Sorry, but that "dance" statement brought up another joke:

Why won't Baptist girls have sex standing up?

Ans: Because someone might see them and think they're dancing:)

I know it's bad but it is kinda funny.

407 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:46pm

"Perfectly Stupid." Hmm. It has a nice ring.
re: #392 OldLineTexan

408 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:17pm

re: #401 rawmuse

Careful, you might be owning gravity now, but it is quite unforgiving the day you slip.

409 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:19pm

re: #393 FurryOldGuyJeans

And nothing else. Trying to enlighten hard-core religious fanaticism is counterproductive and unachievable.

I wasn't doing that. We were discussing labels, in order to prevent lumping everyone into groups so vague as to be useless for the purpose of description. Hence the question.

410 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:31pm

re: #392 OldLineTexan

Now, now, mon cher, no one's perfect, and "completely" implies perfection.


I only have one nerve left tonight, and he/she/whatever just got on it with that.

411 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:33pm

re: #402 fiat_lux
Ha! Don't blame the machine. It is always operator error.

412 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:00pm

re: #341 Moe Katz

Ha, so you're late too! A sad showing my dear. You know there's deviant thought out here to extirpate.

Well eff you very much sweetie, but Shabbat dinner takes precedence over keeping current on LGF threads. Sorry if that offends your ... whatever.

/and a very good shabbos to you, too.

413 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:06pm

re: #401 rawmuse

So far for the last 2 weeks. I am sick of the gym. They have CNN and The View on and it is full of moon bats. So I started to drive to this mountain, and climbing it.

Now, I leave the car at home and walk there from my house. I usually do about 8 to 10 miles, and I carry a 12 pound pack with water and food.

The view has been outstanding lately.

That was so inspiring, I'm giving you an upding for it. Good for you.

If you tell the gym you're quitting because you're so disgusted by The View, I'll give you ten more!

414 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:11pm

re: #349 favorednation

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS as a good way to classify and organize organisms. I never considered it as a continuum of development. It the latter is true, then, what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

There is no abstract ideal of progress in some Platonic biospace that pulls evolution forward towards greater intelligence or complexity. Species just evolve to more efficiently exploit their environmental niches. Where there isn't much improvement to be had, there's no selection pressure to evolve further.

415 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:16pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Buh-bye, asshole.

416 Jim D  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:19pm

re: #361 favorednation

Lines or curves are one dimensional. Points are zero dimensional. A singularity is when the value of something (a mathematical function,say, representing the strength of an electric or gravitational field) becomes infinite at a point.

417 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:36pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

Your computer needs to learn who's boss.

418 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:47pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

SHOOT YER COMPUTER.

419 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:48pm

re: #408 Dan G.

Careful, you might be owning gravity now, but it is quite unforgiving the day you slip.

Well, it's either that or I just stay in bed and blog.

420 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:01pm

re: #390 favorednation

No dimensions or all?

Yup, no dimensions, a line has one, a plane has two, a cube has three, and so on.

421 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:06pm

re: #415 MandyManners
Dat is 2 down, IIRC.

422 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:47pm

re: #401 rawmuse

So far for the last 2 weeks. I am sick of the gym. They have CNN and The View on and it is full of moon bats. So I started to drive to this mountain, and climbing it.

Now, I leave the car at home and walk there from my house. I usually do about 8 to 10 miles, and I carry a 12 pound pack with water and food.

The view has been outstanding lately.

Good for you. And the funny thing is, they are supposed to be the "green" ones.

423 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:55pm

re: #406 favorednation

So I need you to step on my jokes?

/

424 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:04pm

re: #421 pingjockey

Dat is 2 down, IIRC.

Who was the other?

425 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:11pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Love that picture. Are you an Alaskan?

426 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:14pm

re: #396 Sharmuta

It won't get a chance to repeat it.

So I just saw.

/It will be awhile until I can even think of pizza.

427 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:19pm

re: #399 Steffan

If you go far enough away, it's a blue dot. A pinpoint.

Perspective doesn't change the essential nature of things in the material dimension.

428 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:26pm

re: #395 Thanos

Actually it's not so good anymore, with the discoveries of the past two decades or so people have generally migrated to phylogenetic trees. To many cross boundary species for the old method, and genetics is allowing scientists to see actual ancestry rather than theorized now.

As to your question on why some critters don't evolve the answer is both simple and complex: they haven't evolved because they are efficient enough for the niche they are in now.

The very idea of species is increasingly dubious - your average cubic centimeter of dirt, has enough slightly different bacteria to make classification moot, now that we can sequence their DNA and really see.

Critters don't evolve because - there is no impetus to evolution, evolution is the name we give to variation and selection over time. If it doesn't happen, there's nothing to name. But it's not like there's a river of evolution washing things downhill.

429 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:33pm

re: #419 rawmuse

No. Climb, just remain cognizant of what you're facing... no complacency.

430 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:35pm

re: #396 Sharmuta

It won't get a chance to repeat it.

That was quick!
Ok, the one nerve I had left today has been restored.

431 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:38pm

re: #400 Mich-again

If this were the ACT test I would have to guess that solipsism means idiocy.

Top of Dianna's head definition:

The belief that one is the sole reality, and all else is a figment of one's imagination.

Chesterton has a lovely story, in which a young man suffering from solipsism is pinned to a tree with a pitchfork overnight (I think it's a Father Brown, but I'd have to check).

The young man gets over his solipsism. He's even grateful (that's the part that makes it clear it's fiction).

432 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:44pm

Late for pizza again, I see.

433 Thanos  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:52pm

re: #409 OldLineTexan

I wasn't doing that. We were discussing labels, in order to prevent lumping everyone into groups so vague as to be useless for the purpose of description. Hence the question.

It's a good idea but the left will coopt any label to make people look bad regardless. If you don't believe me google '"sarah palin" dominionist'

434 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:54pm

re: #424 MandyManners
The character who insulted you and your mom.

435 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:56pm

re: #403 OldLineTexan

In geometric terms:

A point (a singularity) has no dimension.

A line has one.

A plane has two.

Some years ago, Scientific American had a little article hypothesizing about what a two-dimensional world would be like. They called it "Flatland." As I recall, the hardest part was figuring out how the Flatlanders could have a gastrointestinal tract that ran all the way from one end to the other, without it dividing them into two separate pieces.

436 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:38pm

re: #401 rawmuse

Today was remarkably pretty. Even for the Bay Area, I must say.

It almost made me remember why I like San Francisco.

437 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:42pm

re: #358 Mich-again

How does that work? You seem to know pretty much everything about these things. Is it akin to passing down a memory? That might explain Shirley MacLaine.

Nope; just impulses to engage in certain behaviors.

438 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:42pm

re: #420 FurryOldGuyJeans

And each pixel on your monitor has 6 dimensions... (2 position, and 4 color/light) not all dimensions are spatial.

439 legalpad  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:54pm

re: #401 rawmuse

God - A gym with TV - horrible! One of my hangouts plays CNN all the time. When my friends aren't loud enough to drowned them out, I have an Ipod playing in my ears. My Gym(s) have no TVs.
Fantastic solution you have, though! Looks great!

440 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:34:02pm

re: #394 VibeManJoe

I was about to ding you up until I got to this:

What I have great difficulty accepting is that because certain evolutionary principles are shown to be true using scientific inquiry, then I must completely abandon my belief that the organizer and originator of the measurable order may be God.

There is a subset of atheist scientists who may promote this notion, but quite a few "evolutionists" are also people of faith. The book I linked to in #11 is one of these people- a Catholic biologist. It's as Lao Stinky has said:

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution. Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God. Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

441 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:34:24pm

I believe you, although I bet I could find wackier sites about Sarah Palin.

re: #433 Thanos

442 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:34:35pm

Evening all y'all - how is everyone this COLD (26 degrees NOW in Charlotte N.C. - ya know, in the Southland!) Autumn evening?

443 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:12pm

re: #431 Dianna

Wow. You rattled that off just like that. Pretty heavy.

444 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:31pm

re: #442 realwest
Fine. I believe it is warmer up here in the Cascades than where you are!

445 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #438 Dan G.

And each pixel on your monitor has 6 dimensions... (2 position, and 4 color/light) not all dimensions are spatial.

Now you are arguing semantics outside of a mathematical model.

446 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:45pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

Welcome to the team!

447 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:53pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi Fiat
I hate when my computer does that. I type something wise and meaningful, set down the vodka bottle to hit the "post this comment button", and then my computer posts some asinine gibberish.
Welcome to the community.