Board of Education Poised to Embarrass Texas (Again)

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 6:46 pm PST • Views: 302

An Austin American-Statesman editorial hits the target: State board of education poised to embarrass Texas again.

Once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace because of the State Board of Education and the anti-evolution agenda of some of its members.

Whether there are enough votes on the 15-member board to end its efforts to force religious doctrine into public schools through the back door won’t be known for a while. The board might take a preliminary vote on standards for the public school science curriculum, and by extension the textbooks students use, in January. A final decision on the science curriculum will come in the spring.

A debate is raging over a state board requirement that students be taught the strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories as early as middle school. That “strengths and weaknesses” language is a way to attack evolution and clear the path for religious doctrines like creationism and intelligent design to be taught.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that prohibiting the teaching of evolution is a violation of the separation of church and state. So the education board uses criticism of evolution as a way to get around that prohibition and impose religious belief into the study of life on Earth.

Fully 95 percent of college science and biology teachers in Texas oppose weakening the teaching of evolution by offering alternative explanations. The “strength and weakness” clause only confuses students by inserting a religious doctrine into the study of science.

That, of course, doesn’t help students. It only hurts them when it comes to learning accepted scientific theory. But that’s fine with board members, who are unconcerned about the detrimental effects of their policies.

Too many members of this board are on a religious mission, not an educational one. That’s clear to anyone who has followed its members and their efforts to inculcate conservative religious views into public education over the years.

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1106 comments

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1 saberry0530  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:47:53pm

Sometimes they feel like a nut, sometimes they don't...

2 coquimbojoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:49:05pm

How does this help the cause of anyone who believes in a divine being? I am ashamed to be lumped in with these fools and luddites.

3 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:49:12pm

That was fast. Crusty dinged down this thread in a nanosecond.

4 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:50:11pm

Salamantis is no doubt salivating.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:50:46pm
But that’s fine with board members, who are unconcerned about the detrimental effects of their policies.

And in this, they are no different than the leftists indoctrinating our kids too. The other side of the same coin really.

So a pox on both groups!

6 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:52:31pm
7 Basho  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:52:57pm
So the education board uses criticism of evolution as a way to get around that prohibition and impose religious belief into the study of life on Earth.

How about teaching the criticisms of ID? One lesson in that and it will be laughed off. I'm sure these people wouldn't be too thrilled if what they want to teach is presented as the garbage it is.

8 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:53:17pm

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

9 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:54:06pm

re: #8 Moe Katz

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

Many conservatives have trouble with it, too.

10 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:05pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

How does this help the cause of anyone who believes in a divine being? I am ashamed to be lumped in with these fools and luddites.

THe fools and luddites who believe in a divine being, or the fools and luddites on the TX Bd of Education?

11 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:10pm

re: #7 Basho

How about teaching the criticisms of ID? One lesson in that and it will be laughed off. I'm sure these people wouldn't be too thrilled if what they want to teach is presented as the garbage it is.

Ken Miller did a good job of that in his book Only A Theory. He did a pretty good job, imo, of making ID laughable.

12 Abaddon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:21pm

I've had it out with a few people at work (in San Antonio) over this. I'm ashamed that we have these idiots on the Texas Board of Education.

Being unable to distinguish between matters of faith and matters of science appears to be more difficult for some folks than I ever imagined. They can each believe all they want ... as long as they don't foist off religion on our kids as science.

13 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:40pm

However, this is a left leaning newspaper with a liberal agenda.

14 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:55:56pm

re: #9 MandyManners

Many conservatives have trouble with it, too.

True. But a line like "once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace" sounds to me like a liberal Texan attitude. That's okay with me, mind you, Texas conservatives are a little too far out for my liking.

15 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:56:26pm

re: #8 Moe Katz

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

Perhaps, but I agree with it.

16 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:56:44pm

re: #14 Moe Katz

True. But a line like "once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace" sounds to me like a liberal Texan attitude. That's okay with me, mind you, Texas conservatives are a little too far out for my liking.

Most of us aren't ID'ers. But hey, whatever.

17 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:56:54pm
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that prohibiting the teaching of evolution is a violation of the separation of church and state. So the education board uses criticism of evolution as a way to get around that prohibition and impose religious belief into the study of life on Earth.

/chances they'll be successful, zero

18 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:57:09pm

re: #13 theparson

However, this is a left leaning newspaper with a liberal agenda.

Aha, as I suspected. And Austin is liberal compared to the rest of the state, is it not?

19 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:57:34pm

Another reason why being a Board of Education member requires some sense and basic education.

"Give me that ol' time religion" and remove my brain apparently.

20 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:57:59pm

re: #18 Moe Katz

Aha, as I suspected. And Austin is liberal compared to the rest of the state, is it not?

So everyone outside of Austin is an ID'er?

21 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:58:25pm

Evolving Darwin Play Set
Contemplate the validity of evolution and natural selection with this five piece Evolving Darwin Play Set. Each meticulously detailed, hard vinyl figure represents a different stage of human evolution all the way from fish-man to a modern day Homo sapien in the form of Charles Darwin. Figures range from 3/8" to 3-1/4" tall.

22 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:58:26pm

re: #18 Moe Katz

Aha, as I suspected. And Austin is liberal compared to the rest of the state, is it not?

Most certainly. Austin is as liberal as Berkley!
Says it all!

23 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:58:34pm

re: #15 reine.de.tout

Perhaps, but I agree with it.

Me too. It's just that the sense of embarrassment for Texas as a whole struck me as really typical of Texas liberals, who usually find much to be embarrassed about :)

24 DeathtotheSwiss  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:16pm

Just relax, everyone, I'm sure these guys are reasonable intelligent folk who are more than willing to have an adult discussion about the issue. I know what'll cheer you up though.

25 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:26pm

re: #14 Moe Katz

True. But a line like "once again Texas is poised to court national disgrace" sounds to me like a liberal Texan attitude. That's okay with me, mind you, Texas conservatives are a little too far out for my liking.

Well. That line didn't stand out for me.
I guess because I'm next door in Louisiana and so accustomed to hearing how backwards we are that it didn't even register.

26 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:26pm

re: #11 Sharmuta

book? i'll wait for the movie!

27 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:50pm

re: #23 Moe Katz

Me too. It's just that the sense of embarrassment for Texas as a whole struck me as really typical of Texas liberals, who usually find much to be embarrassed about :)

Well, the state DID suddenly became a real shithole the day after GW Bush became Governor.

28 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 6:59:59pm

re: #22 theparson

Most certainly. Austin is as liberal as Berkley!
Says it all!

So they endorsed Obama! But not Kinky for gov, I suppose :)

29 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:00:39pm

re: #23 Moe Katz

Me too. It's just that the sense of embarrassment for Texas as a whole struck me as really typical of Texas liberals, who usually find much to be embarrassed about :)

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal.

30 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:01:41pm

re: #28 Moe Katz

Not sure. I didn't take Kinky seriously enough to investigate, what with the 25 votes he got.

31 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:02:05pm

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

32 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:02:41pm

re: #20 OldLineTexan

So everyone outside of Austin is an ID'er?

Well, young earth creationism would be a real problem for the Texas oil industry, I should think :)

33 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:02:45pm

What does it matter about the source of this article? It comes from the left, so it can be disregarded? That's the sort of logic koslings use to disregard fox news. It's not intellectually honest.

Now- if this was a lefty article full of crap, that would be a different story, but as it stands, it seems to me this article is discussing facts.

34 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:03:00pm

Wow, look at the LGF activity these days.

It was just a few years ago, when we had a celebration the first time an all-day thread broke the record of 600 postings.

Charles, given the chance, what would you do different?
.

35 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:03:25pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal.

Good point :)

36 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:03:57pm

re: #32 Moe Katz

Well, young earth creationism would be a real problem for the Texas oil industry, I should think :)

Heh.

37 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:10pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

Who said it is required?

38 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:19pm

re: #30 theparson

Not sure. I didn't take Kinky seriously enough to investigate, what with the 25 votes he got.

He entertained the rest of the continent, anyway. I was rooting for him.

39 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:26pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

Separation of church and state.

40 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:04:58pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

and where in the constitution does it state that we should teach fairy tales as scientific fact in our schools?

41 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:05:26pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't publish on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

It doesn't require teaching about the Holocaust either.

/but facts is facts

42 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:06:39pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

What does it matter about the source of this article? It comes from the left, so it can be disregarded? That's the sort of logic koslings use to disregard fox news. It's not intellectually honest.

Now- if this was a lefty article full of crap, that would be a different story, but as it stands, it seems to me this article is discussing facts.

The first line matters to me a lot! "Once again" would imply a pattern. That's not only ridiculous it's offensive!

43 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:06:49pm

re: #32 Moe Katz

Well, young earth creationism would be a real problem for the Texas oil industry, I should think :)

Not really- they'd just say God put the oil their to bless the Great State of Texas.

44 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:06:59pm

re: #34 Tamron

Wow, look at the LGF activity these days.

It was just a few years ago, when we had a celebration the first time an all-day thread broke the record of 600 postings.

Charles, given the chance, what would you do different?
.


mebbe he'd get in line fer 15 mill in funding like the huff ho...

45 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:05pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

great song sharm!

46 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:12pm

re: #21 HelloDare

Evolving Darwin Play Set
Contemplate the validity of evolution and natural selection with this five piece Evolving Darwin Play Set. Each meticulously detailed, hard vinyl figure represents a different stage of human evolution all the way from fish-man to a modern day Homo sapien in the form of Charles Darwin. Figures range from 3/8" to 3-1/4" tall.

Of course, you'll need a good T-shirt to go with that, such as a 98% Chimp, Natural Selection: Good things come to those who mate, I Love Lucy or There's No Right Way to Eat a Rhesus.

47 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:17pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

Specifically: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

...unless "conservatives" want to further amend the Constitution this is always going to be a problem for teaching creationism in public schools.

48 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal much of a human being.

Fixed.
Conservatives have social consciences too.

49 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:08:49pm

The way the reporter phrases it, it makes it sound like not choosing to include evolution in the curriculm is an establishment of religion, rather than just a dumb policy choice.

50 Basho  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:13pm

re: #46 gmsc

Man, you're on a roll with the great links.

51 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:18pm

This is damned embarrassing! A bunch of fellow Baptist about to make such a mess out of the science curriculum. I wish I could disown the whole wayward lot of them, but they would probably kick me out of the church first.
It does give credence to the left's view of us as a bunch of sub-human retards. We have to fight RINOs, Dems, and now right-wing IDers. Damned idiots everyone of them.

52 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:22pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you are not embarrassed for, nor offended by, nor feeling some collective guilt about something, you ain't a liberal.


Your statement implies that all liberals have feelings of some kind or other. What about the liberals who just don't give a damn about anything?

53 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:23pm

re: #49 Dar ul Harb

The way the reporter phrases it, it makes it sound like not choosing to include evolution in the curriculm is an establishment of religion, rather than just a dumb policy choice.

It is if the alternative is to teach ID.

54 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:09:31pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Not really- they'd just say God put the oil their to bless the Great State of Texas.

They think that way. A web site I was ordering CD's from in Texas had two possible shipping rates: Texas and Foreign.

55 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:00pm

re: #42 theparson

The first line matters to me a lot! "Once again" would imply a pattern. That's not only ridiculous it's offensive!

Ah- so it's a difference of priorities, I think. See- I'm more offended that people are trying to foist their idea of religion on other peoples' kids in science class. I find this deeply offensive to my faith and rights. Journalists acting like journalists is not the issue here.

56 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:07pm
57 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:12pm

re: #50 Basho

Man, you're on a roll with the great links.

Thank you! They're just things I've found searching around the web.

58 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:25pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

Fixed.
Conservatives have social consciences too.

SOME conservatives do. Others are social darwinist SOB's.

59 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:42pm

Glad you liked it Phnx!

60 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:10:47pm

re: #56 SpaceJesus

Take it somewhere else, please. Like DKos.

61 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:07pm

re: #58 Moe Katz

SOME conservatives do. Others are social darwinist SOB's.

I try.

62 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:18pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

And in this, they are no different than the leftists indoctrinating our kids too. The other side of the same coin really.

So a pox on both groups!

The language, I think, allowed discussion of "strengths and limitations". Leftist indoctrination that analyzed the strengths of opposing views is a sort I've never encountered and I never expect to.

63 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:20pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

Fixed.
Conservatives have social consciences too.

Next time fix what you say and leave what I say well enough alone. What I said is what I intended and don't need anyone fixing what I don't see as broken.

64 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:41pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout
Watch it bub! I'm a "conservative". These asshats ain't the conservatives I knew!

65 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:11:41pm

re: #61 OldLineTexan

I try.

:)

66 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:12:28pm

re: #46 gmsc

Also see: Teach the Controversy

67 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:12:30pm

re: #52 Tamron

Your statement implies that all liberals have feelings of some kind or other. What about the liberals who just don't give a damn about anything?

From my experience ALL liberals operate on feelings and collective guilt. Anyone that doesn't give a damn is not a liberal but an anarchist.

68 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:12:58pm

re: #55 Sharmuta

Ah- so it's a difference of priorities, I think. See- I'm more offended that people are trying to foist their idea of religion on other peoples' kids in science class. I find this deeply offensive to my faith and rights. Journalists acting like journalists is not the issue here.

Agreed. I do not want religion taught in public schools (probably for different reasons than some) but that issue has been well vetted here. I am outraged that a newspaper in the heart of Texas would so disparage her.

69 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:13:14pm

re: #62 Hobbes

The strength of evolution is not in dispute except by those who refuse to accept it's validity. The weakness of ID, on the other hand, is quite apparent.

70 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:13:33pm

re: #56 SpaceJesus

Asshole.

71 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:16pm

re: #70 MandyManners

Asshole.

Succinct and to the point. ;)

72 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:26pm

re: #63 FurryOldGuyJeans

Next time fix what you say and leave what I say well enough alone. What I said is what I intended and don't need anyone fixing what I don't see as broken.

fixed
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

73 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:29pm

re: #67 FurryOldGuyJeans

From my experience ALL liberals operate on feelings and collective guilt. Anyone that doesn't give a damn is not a liberal but an anarchist.


--Or just plain RETIRED?

:-)
.

74 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:14:31pm

re: #64 pingjockey

We''ll see which way the conservatives choose but I expect them to continue making wrong turns for another decade or so. 8 years of Obama might wake them up.

75 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:41pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

The strength of evolution is not in dispute except by those who refuse to accept it's validity. The weakness of ID, on the other hand, is quite apparent.

My point had to do with the character of leftist indoctrination in the schools. I thought I'd made that clear. Sorry if that eluded you. As for the evolution debate, I want no part of it.

76 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:45pm

re: #68 theparson

The issue may be "well vetted" for many of us, but these threads continue to have people showing up and asking honest questions because for whatever reason, they're new to this controversy. Usually, a couple links help them out, and they're brought up to speed. So- to say it's "well vetted" is not quite accurate.

77 mcnorman  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:51pm

What do you expect? It is Texas, after all.

78 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:52pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

The strength of evolution is not in dispute except by those who refuse to accept it's validity. The weakness of ID, on the other hand, is quite apparent.

Apparent only to those willing to accept things outside the first few chapters of Genesis as being the literal and complete truth.

79 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:15:57pm

In Texas, the state board of education is usually a little heard from group. People running for the board don't get a lot of attention and are not well known so when the average voter goes into the booth the candidates are unfamiliar. This leads most to either not vote or to just pull the party line. The other problem with the Texas BOE is that the districts are very gerrymandered. In fact in the election three weeks ago, there actually was a contested seat and the district for it stretched from Beaumont all the way to Brazoria county. David Bradley, who won and was a republican, is someone who actually home schooled his own children, yet feels comfortable being the BOE telling the rest of us what is good for our children who are publicly educated. His opponent was a democrat named Laura Ewing, who made it a campaign issue that she would not vote to dilute the teaching of evolution. Ewing lost primarily because of straight ticket voters and lack of recognition about the BOE.

80 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:17:02pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Specifically: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

...unless "conservatives" want to further amend the Constitution this is always going to be a problem for teaching creationism in public schools.

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

81 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:17:36pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Also see: Teach the Controversy

Favorited and updinged!

Also, here's the complete James Burke's The Day The Universe Changed episode, Fit To Rule:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5


(Like James Burke's documentaries? You can find all of them on YouTube!)

82 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:17:59pm

re: #77 mcnorman

What do you expect? It is Texas, after all.

bite me!

83 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:10pm

re: #56 SpaceJesus

you are a special kind of retard


Wow. An expert on retards.
.

84 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:23pm

God, Country, Family is how i was brought up

85 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:31pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

The issue may be "well vetted" for many of us, but these threads continue to have people showing up and asking honest questions because for whatever reason, they're new to this controversy. Usually, a couple links help them out, and they're brought up to speed. So- to say it's "well vetted" is not quite accurate.

Stop looking for a fight with me. I am not disagreeing with you. If my priorities are different than yours it's ok.

86 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:41pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout
I don't know. It seems when a truly conservative voice speaks up they are drowned out by moderates and don't be partisan. Screw that. I'm partisan and will stick up for limited government, strong national defense and cutting bullshit programs. So you see I don't see any mass movement of 'moderate'(hate that word) repubs to the right unless obambi does a FDR and tries to nationalize everything.

87 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:18:53pm

re: #75 Hobbes

My point had to do with the character of leftist indoctrination in the schools. I thought I'd made that clear. Sorry if that eluded you. As for the evolution debate, I want no part of it.

Hobbes- I understood what you were saying about the left. The problem is there is no grounds for religious zealots to demand this of science.

88 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:19:23pm

re: #80 Timbre

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

They don't help the cause of salvation by adherence to this idiocy.

89 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:19:31pm
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that prohibiting the teaching of evolution is a violation of the separation of church and state.

re: #53 MandyManners

It is if the alternative is to teach ID.

Well, that's different.

What if those states who so choose just hold off with teaching evolution until college?

As I've said before, there's plenty of biology to teach aside from "teaching the controversy".

90 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:09pm

re: #79 big steve

In Texas, the state board of education is usually a little heard from group. People running for the board don't get a lot of attention and are not well known so when the average voter goes into the booth the candidates are unfamiliar. This leads most to either not vote or to just pull the party line. The other problem with the Texas BOE is that the districts are very gerrymandered. In fact in the election three weeks ago, there actually was a contested seat and the district for it stretched from Beaumont all the way to Brazoria county. David Bradley, who won and was a republican, is someone who actually home schooled his own children, yet feels comfortable being the BOE telling the rest of us what is good for our children who are publicly educated. His opponent was a democrat named Laura Ewing, who made it a campaign issue that she would not vote to dilute the teaching of evolution. Ewing lost primarily because of straight ticket voters and lack of recognition about the BOE.

Well, he is a tax-payer.

91 vibemanjoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:17pm

re: #80 Timbre

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

Excuse me, please, but I am a religious conservative and I care greatly about the constitution.

Joe

92 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:21pm

re: #87 Sharmuta

Hobbes- I understood what you were saying about the left. The problem is there is no grounds for religious zealots to demand this of science.

OK.

93 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:26pm
94 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:48pm
95 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:51pm

re: #85 theparson

WTF? I mention that for some people this issue is new, and that's somehow "picking a fight"? ETFOM.

96 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:58pm

re: #88 Haverwilde

I agree completely.

97 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:20:59pm

re: #93 ploome hineni

yo

oy

98 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:00pm

re: #80 Timbre

Religious conservatives don't care about the Constitution. There's souls to be saved and they work for God. That trumps all else. At least that has been my experience...for 50 years...in Texas.

That's so weird...almost every person I know in Texas that values the Constitution is a conservative and religious. But I'm only 46.

/

99 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:07pm

re: #89 Dar ul Harb

Well, that's different.

What if those states who so choose just hold off with teaching evolution until college?

As I've said before, there's plenty of biology to teach aside from "teaching the controversy".

It would put those students WAY behind when they got to college.

100 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:15pm
101 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:18pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus
There is no allah. It is a made up religion by a pedophile.

102 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:27pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus

Fuck you.

103 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:22:59pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

104 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:23:07pm

re: #89 Dar ul Harb

Well, that's different.

What if those states who so choose just hold off with teaching evolution until college?

As I've said before, there's plenty of biology to teach aside from "teaching the controversy".

Because due to the ever-widening field of epigenetics it's near impossible to teach any biology without some requisite evolutionary background.

105 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:23:27pm

re: #100 ploome hineni

:D

what's up?

Our Sabbath evolution thread.

106 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:23:59pm

re: #90 MandyManners

Well, he is a tax-payer.

yes but apparently he is NOT a tax-payer in the very district he represents...David Bradley Residency

107 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:24:48pm

re: #106 big steve

yes but apparently he is NOT a tax-payer in the very district he represents...David Bradley Residency

That I have some trouble with.

108 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:12pm
109 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:17pm

re: #105 Moe Katz

Our Sabbath evolution thread.

Speaking of that I just got around to reading the manual on my new stove, it has a Shabbath feature that turns off the computer inside automatically.

110 i poop u scoop  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:23pm

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

111 phoenixgirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:25pm

re: #102 MandyManners

i think he forgot his sarc tag

112 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:25:39pm

re: #104 Thanos

Because due to the ever-widening field of epigenetics it's near impossible to teach any biology without some requisite evolutionary background.

Not sure why that would require invoking concepts of MACRO-evolution, however. I'm open-minded on the question, though.

113 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:09pm

re: #108 ploome hineni

cool

Charles says Kiddush, we all have a drink of wine.

114 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:10pm
115 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:35pm
116 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:26:58pm

re: #109 Thanos

Speaking of that I just got around to reading the manual on my new stove, it has a Shabbath feature that turns off the computer inside automatically.

This is in the USA?

117 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:00pm

re: #70 MandyManners

I second that!

118 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:00pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Click + on comments you like, click - on those you don't like.

Click on your football, and find your Karma rating.

Six on three comments ain't a bad start.

119 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:10pm
120 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:14pm

re: #91 vibemanjoe

Joe, you are probably not as religiously conservative as the people to whom I am referring. I'm talking about people who ignore the First Amendment by holding strategy meetings to try and come up with ways to have Congress or the Courts create an establishment of religion--namely, fundamentalist Christianity. I know this because they called me once back in the 80's and I attended one of their "prayer breakfasts" without knowing what their agenda really was. The prayer breakfast was entirely politics: how to make America one large fundamentalist church.

If that is you, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend; just point out the real goal of these people.

121 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:22pm
122 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:39pm

re: #92 Hobbes

Why are you opposed to discussing evolution?

123 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:43pm

re: #115 ploome hineni

he got a Thermador

Make mine lobster, please.

124 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:27:47pm

re: #81 gmsc

James Burke rules: Tomorrow's Burke

125 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:12pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

It's to rate comments with, usually people hit the plus button if they strongly like what was said, or agree with it, or it it was especially erudite, or whatever. People hit the minus usually only when people are being assholish. If you get too many down dings people might make the assumption that you are troll, and you could catch fire on even an innocuous comment.

126 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:17pm

re: #111 phoenixgirl

i think he forgot his sarc tag

In conjunction with his previous comment, I don't care.

127 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:18pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

The +/- is for other people to either support your comment (upding) or register that your comment is complete crap (downding). If you click on your avatar under the Karma it gives your total score for all your comments. You can click on your score for any comment to see who gave you a ding either way.

128 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:20pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

They determine your "karma" points. You cannot upding (+) or downding(-) your own posts, only those of others.

When anyone clicks your avatar, they can see the grand total of your updings and downdings, and get an idea of what kind of influence you've had on the board. For example, if you've been updinged 700 times, and downdinged 45 times, your karma will show as 655 (700-45).

129 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:41pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-

Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

Too many minuses will give you terrible karma.

130 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:49pm

re: #102 MandyManners

Well you said it more succinctly than me!

131 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:28:52pm
132 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:03pm

re: #114 ploome hineni

Which one?

133 Right mind left  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:18pm

re: #31 Dar ul Harb

It'd be interesting to see where in the Constitution the teaching of evolution is required, especially considering that Darwin didn't on the subject until about 70 years after the Constitution was adopted...

#89, too - I agree with the upthread responses to this!

PUBLIC Education in the US has a responsibility to teach a generic curriculum that must be based on the most current information available to further higher learning and functioning for our citizens. The Constitution was clear about keeping religion free to all but private, that the government cannot mandate or allow any religious infiltration into the agenda.

Darwin happens to be responsible for a huge segment of biological discovery that furthers a wide aspect of science. While the argument is that it is still 'theoretical', the substance of the suggested alternatives are clearly fraught with religious agenda and that is what is unconstitutional.

Should parents want their children to understand an alternative to the widely accepted current science then it is their prerogative to provide them with theological curriculum through their church or at home.

I sent my older boys to a Christian school when they were very young and the private school was clear that they were teaching this ID in their curriculum. I was aware that they firmly believed in this so I had to teach my kids that what they were learning was one way of looking at things to support the Bible teachings.

The suggested "debate" that the ID proponents want to inject in our public schools is against the separation of Church and State in our Constitution primarily because there is not scientific-method evidence to support the "issues" they want to debate. It would be a theological debate.

I'm watching a PBS show on Theologians under Hitler, that feeds into this a bit...

134 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:21pm

re: #122 Sharmuta

Why are you opposed to discussing evolution?

Because his head is stuck in the cupboard and he can't see?

135 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:29:43pm

re: #129 Sharmuta

Too many minuses will give you terrible karma.

And can affect your eBay feedback.

136 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:01pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

Off topic-
Please excuse my ignorance because I'm new here, but what is the significance of the -/+? Does something happen if you get too many minuses?

You are taken out to the woodpile and beaten savagely by a couple of pissed off lizards.
LOL.

137 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:02pm

re: #116 Moe Katz

This is in the USA?

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

138 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:21pm

re: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Wow!

139 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:22pm

re: #98 OldLineTexan

I'm not talking about political conservatives. I was referring to religious conservatives who try to force schoolchildren to be fundamentalist Christians.

140 gmsc  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:23pm

Time for dinner! I'll be back later.

141 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:43pm

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans

I've enjoyed Hobbes on other threads, so I'm curious as to why this topic is of no interest to him/her.

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:30:47pm

re: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Kenmore, eh?

143 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:31:07pm

re: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Ha. Our new stovetop has been off every evening this week.

We must be like seven times more Jewish than you.

///

144 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:11pm

re: #99 MandyManners

It would put those students WAY behind when they got to college.

Well, not. Teaching the facts that support the theory of evolution will go a long way towards resolving this as a political conflict, while providing a basis for advanced studies. With our current public educational system, we'd be lucky if students coming out of high school know any basic science, much less have an understanding of less practical concepts like cosmology and evolution.

145 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:17pm

re: #120 Timbre

Joe, you are probably not as religiously conservative as the people to whom I am referring. I'm talking about people who ignore the First Amendment by holding strategy meetings to try and come up with ways to have Congress or the Courts create an establishment of religion--namely, fundamentalist Christianity. I know this because they called me once back in the 80's and I attended one of their "prayer breakfasts" without knowing what their agenda really was. The prayer breakfast was entirely politics: how to make America one large fundamentalist church.

If that is you, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend; just point out the real goal of these people.

I, too, am a "fundamentalist Christian" which really means that I hold to the fundamental truths of Christianity, the generally accepted truths. It is, unfortunately, a phrase which has been hijacked by the MSM and given a bad connotation. Most of us understand when that phrase is used the speaker is talking about those who have extreme political agendas but, it is still somewhat irritating.

146 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:19pm

re: #138 Moe Katz

Wow!

Neglected to say, "everything're: #137 Thanos

Yep, its from Sears, big Jewish community here in KC.

Everything's up to date in Kansas City.

147 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:32:29pm

re: #141 Sharmuta

I've enjoyed Hobbes on other threads, so I'm curious as to why this topic is of no interest to him/her.

Fair enough. Not all threads are to everyone's liking.

148 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:33:05pm

re: #139 Timbre

I'm not talking about political conservatives. I was referring to religious conservatives who try to force schoolchildren to be fundamentalist Christians.

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

149 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:34:08pm

re: #138 Moe Katz

Wow!

It's actually kinda cool, it must be a pain in the tucchis (sp?) to pull the stove out and unplug it every shabbat.

150 i poop u scoop  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:34:08pm

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.

151 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:34:26pm

re: #144 Dar ul Harb

Well, not. Teaching the facts that support the theory of evolution we'd be lucky if students coming out of high school know any basic science, much less have an understanding of less practical concepts like cosmology and evolution.

Our public schools are mess, but that isn't a good reason to teach gibberish. It will interfere with what little the little darlings learned.

152 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:00pm

re: #144 Dar ul Harb

Well, not. Teaching the facts that support the theory of evolution will go a long way towards resolving this as a political conflict, while providing a basis for advanced studies. With our current public educational system, we'd be lucky if students coming out of high school know any basic science, much less have an understanding of less practical concepts like cosmology and evolution.

I don't know about that. I have two high school sons. Youngest son is a self-avowed nerd. His science skills way out class the skills I had at his age, and I ended up making a living in science. In middle school a teach did "teach the controversy" regarding evolution and my son came home very proud that he had debated this teach and felt he had won.

153 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:11pm

re: #151 Haverwilde

Our public schools are mess, but that isn't a good reason to teach gibberish. It will interfere with what little the little darlings learned.

Global warming, for example.

/

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:35pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

Thank the Left collectively for all the slipping of meanings going on. When they hear something they don't like they just change the meaning to suit their own purposes; mostly so they can be declared triumphant in their own minds in everything within human endeavor.

155 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:40pm

re: #120 Timbre

Joe, you are probably not as religiously conservative as the people to whom I am referring. I'm talking about people who ignore the First Amendment by holding strategy meetings to try and come up with ways to have Congress or the Courts create an establishment of religion--namely, fundamentalist Christianity. I know this because they called me once back in the 80's and I attended one of their "prayer breakfasts" without knowing what their agenda really was. The prayer breakfast was entirely politics: how to make America one large fundamentalist church.

If that is you, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend; just point out the real goal of these people.

No offense taken.

I also am a fundamentalist Christian in the sense that my religious beliefs are based on fundamental principles found in biblical scholarship.

I am also a constitutionalist politically in that we should first try to follow the fundamental principles of societal organization as outlined by the document.

I recognize the organization of my religious order separate from the organization of the country in which I am blessed to practice my religion.

The coordination of these two systems is simple: I do not try to force my religion into government action and, hopefully, they refrain from forcing government action into my religion.

Joe

156 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:58pm

re: #104 Thanos

Because due to the ever-widening field of epigenetics it's near impossible to teach any biology without some requisite evolutionary background.

Hey, I'm not saying evolution is not important in biology, as a discipline. It's clearly central to what biologists do, whether they're of the "indoor" or "outdoor" variety. The question, as I view it, is what high school students need to know in order to be informed voters on scientific policy issues (presuming they don't go on to college).

157 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:35:58pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan
I'd have to agree. You can be a religous conservative and be conservative in speech, dress, etc...Not be a supporter of ID.

158 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:03pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

That's why I always try to specify the specific culprits in this particular case it's Discovery Institute, backed by the $$$ of Dominionist Howard Ahmanson.

159 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:11pm

re: #149 Thanos

It's actually kinda cool, it must be a pain in the tucchis (sp?) to pull the stove out and unplug it every shabbat.

I spell it tuchus, but I don't imagine there any hard-and-fast rules about spelling Yiddish in English. It's impossible for me to imagine being that observant anyway :)

160 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:16pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.

Only Lord Charles, the Big Lizard in the sky can delete your comments or ban you. The rest of us can only down-ding. However if you do run into Mandy Manners, she can "clue by four" you.

161 Right mind left  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:39pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.


Well, I am new too, but from what I have gathered, down dings require you to buy everyone drinks. If you don't then you are banished if you have negative karma by everyone doing some form of ***GAZE***(see LGF dictionary)

162 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:36:40pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.

All it means is whether your comments are popular or not, nothing else.

163 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #145 theparson

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

164 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:38:32pm
165 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:38:54pm

re: #153 OldLineTexan
They never get around to the fact that in geologic terms we just came out of an ice age! Maybe it is supposed to warm up before the next one starts. Can't remember who said it but it is appropriate..."Civilization is the period between ice ages".

166 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:39:31pm

re: #163 Timbre

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

Heh. "Supremacist" has pretty well been shaped as a pejorative. I don't think you'd confuse me with that. ;)

167 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:39:37pm

re: #164 ploome hineni

no one would pull the plug on a stove because it was shabbos'

he is just using both yiddish words he knows

Isn't Thanos a person of gender?

168 Timbre  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:39:55pm

re: #155 VibeManJoe

In my opinion, you are a thinking person with well-defined ideas.

169 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:40:14pm
170 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:40:15pm

re: #164 ploome hineni

you are making me all schpillkess now. I read a lot of Asimov and Ellison as a kid.

171 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:40:20pm

re: #145 theparson

I agree with theparson. How is your son, by the way?

172 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:30pm

re: #169 ploome hineni
Mwahaha. Nope. Everybody has one. I think some congress critters have another where their brains were.

173 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:31pm

re: #153 OldLineTexan

Global warming, for example.

/

Amen, and speaking of global warming, interesting things happening on that cold front. [Link: epw.senate.gov...]

174 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:36pm

re: #163 Timbre

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

No need to apologize to me (but thanks anyway). I don't expect anyone to tiptoe around for me. I'm not that sensitive. However, I do reserve the right to explain (as I just did) to those who use those phrases. In short, no offense taken.

175 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:41:48pm

re: #150 i poop u scoop

Ah, OK thanks. I just didn't know if getting X number of minuses meant your comment got deleted or get you banished or whatnot.


Well, kinda sorta. If you get TOO controversial, the devils and he angels might have a taffy-pulling contest with you in the middle. The numbers are just a means for the spectators to cheer on their favorite team, and also to add their own thumbs-up or thumbs-down to the fray.

Of course if someone turns out to be a real turkey, Charles might step in and trip the guillotine. This is also an uncomplicated method for Charles to get up to speed on troublemakers, first thing in the morning.
.

176 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:42:30pm

re: #152 big steve

In middle school a teach did "teach the controversy" regarding evolution and my son came home very proud that he had debated this teach and felt he had won.

Well, that would seem to argue for opening up a debate, but we don't want individual public school teachers to be injecting their own religious views into the classroom clearly.

177 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:43:29pm

re: #171 favorednation

I agree with theparson. How is your son, by the way?

He's doing well. Just reinlisted in the Navy for four more years. Makes the old man proud!

178 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:05pm
179 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:39pm

Good for him! Things here will be "hopefully" looking up by the end of 4yrs.

180 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:40pm

re: #177 theparson

He's doing well. Just reinlisted in the Navy for four more years. Makes the old man proud!

A tip of my dixie cup to the young man.

181 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:42pm

re: #177 theparson
Congratulations and a Hearty Well Done to your son.

182 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:47pm

re: #164 ploome hineni

no one would pull the plug on a stove because it was shabbos'

he is just using both yiddish words he knows

If the stove were computerized with an LED clock, yes some conservative Jews would pull the plug or otherwise switch it off.


Orthodox and some Conservative authorities rule that it is prohibited to turn electric devices on or off as falling under one of the "39 categories of work (melachot)". However, the authorities are not in agreement about exactly which category (or categories) this would fall under. One view is that tiny sparks are created in a switch when the circuit is closed, and this would constitute "lighting a fire" (category 37). If the appliance is one whose purpose is for light or heat (such as an incandescent lightbulb or electric oven) then the lighting or heating elements may be considered as a type of fire; if so, then turning them on constitutes both "lighting a fire" (category 37) and "cooking" (a form of baking, category 11), and turning them off would be "extinguishing a fire" (category 36).

Another view is that a device which is plugged into an electrical outlet of a wall becomes part of the building, but is nonfunctional while the switch is off; turning it on would then constitute "building" and turning it off would be "demolishing" (categories 35 and 34). Some schools of thought consider the use of electricity to be forbidden only by rabbinic injunction, rather than because it violates of one of the original categories.

183 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:51pm

re: #178 ploome hineni

you have a son in the Navy?

I do. He's on the Nebraska (sub).

184 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:44:54pm

re: #177 theparson

Are you an elder in the church of Christ?

185 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:13pm

Lynn B. must be taking Salamantis's shift on this thread. She's lurking and dinging.

186 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:22pm
187 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:36pm

re: #176 Dar ul Harb

Well, that would seem to argue for opening up a debate, but we don't want individual public school teachers to be injecting their own religious views into the classroom clearly.

Sure- we should also open up history class and allow for teaching the controversy on the Holocaust.

The fact is- there is no controversy. The only people pushing the "controversy" meme *oddly* are the people profiting off it.

188 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:37pm

re: #184 MandyManners

Are you an elder in the church of Christ?

I am an elder in the church of life..it just means less sex and more arthritis..heh

189 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:45pm

re: #184 MandyManners

Are you an elder in the church of Christ?

No, I'm Ordained in the AG.

190 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:56pm

re: #186 ploome hineni

cool


Mandy is that your denom?

Huh?

191 big steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:46:59pm

re: #176 Dar ul Harb

Well, that would seem to argue for opening up a debate, but we don't want individual public school teachers to be injecting their own religious views into the classroom clearly.

I got to admit to being of two minds here. I am not religious and believe that evolution is well proven. If it were as simple as teaching a controversy or just letting evolution sort of self prove itself, I would be ok with that. However, what people really want to do is not teach the controversy, they want to provide alternatives that, at the basics, are metaphysical and not science.

192 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:08pm
193 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:14pm

re: #188 joecitizen

I am an elder in the church of life..it just means less sex and more arthritis..heh

LOL!

194 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:27pm

re: #102 MandyManners

Fuck you.

And the horse you rode in on!

195 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:32pm

re: #189 theparson

No, I'm Ordained in the AG.

I'm sorry. I had you confused with another Lizard.

196 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:49pm

re: #192 ploome hineni

hahahahahah

hehehe

people never cease to amaze

The Wrecking Crew (not the studio musican ones).

197 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:47:50pm

re: #185 Moe Katz
How can you tell? I haven't seen anyone get a down ding, looking back up the thread, that is.

198 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:03pm

re: #188 joecitizen

I am an elder in the church of life..it just means less sex and more arthritis..heh


Dang, is THAT was causes arthritis? Hmmm. Let's see, now...
.

199 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:03pm

re: #194 Hobbes

And the horse you rode in on!

I picture him on an ostrich.

200 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:13pm
201 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:48:53pm

The problem with 'teaching the controversy' is that it adds legitimacy to that position. Using the logic of the IDers we could also discuss why it would be appropriate to reestablish slavery, or the legitimacy of the earth being flat

202 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:01pm

re: #200 ploome hineni

denomination?

what is AG, Parson?

Assemblies of God

203 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:01pm

re: #197 pingjockey

Reload. I got two downdings from Lynn :)

204 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:29pm

re: #192 ploome hineni

hahahahahah

hehehe

people never cease to amaze

When they do cease how boring things will be

205 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:40pm

re: #203 Moe Katz
Aha! Thanks learned something new.

206 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:49:41pm
207 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:50:45pm

re: #203 Moe Katz

Reload. I got two downdings from Lynn :)

Don't worry. I've got more downdings than Carter's got pills.

208 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:50:46pm
209 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:50:56pm
210 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:08pm

re: #203 Moe Katz

Reload. I got two downdings from Lynn :)

Or just click on any ding number and if there is a change it will be updated without having to reload the whole page.

211 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:13pm

re: #122 Sharmuta

Why are you opposed to discussing evolution?

It's a no win situation with emotions at a level I just can't share.

212 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:18pm

re: #207 theparson

Don't worry. I've got more downdings than Carter's got pills.

Well I was hoping to trade my karma points for Green Stamps.

213 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:40pm
214 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:58pm

re: #209 ploome hineni

oh no

they do not amaze in any wonderful way

just depressing how petty and vain some are

Even petty and vain is amazing in its own perverted way.

215 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:51:59pm

re: #203 Moe Katz
Okay, now to show how really damn dumb I am, how do you know or find out who updinged or down dinged you?

216 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:03pm

re: #163 Timbre

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Sorry. I don't know a word that has an accepted definition in this case. In the past I have offered the word "supremacist." By that, I mean people who demand that their religious beliefs be held up above all others. But even that would probably offend some.

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

217 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:09pm

re: #206 ploome hineni

my Father would watch that TV program every Sunday...about 30 yrs ago?

www.ag.org This one.

218 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:22pm
219 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:25pm

re: #215 pingjockey

Okay, now to show how really damn dumb I am, how do you know or find out who updinged or down dinged you?

Click the number; you get a list.

220 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:26pm

re: #208 SpaceJesus
WHACK!

221 Basho  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #215 pingjockey

Okay, now to show how really damn dumb I am, how do you know or find out who updinged or down dinged you?

Click on the number.

222 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:52pm

Only three down dings on this thread. What is this? Capitulation? Creationist night at the movies?

223 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:52:57pm

re: #213 ploome hineni

how am I doing?

You're okay so far :)

224 notutopia  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:12pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
There are 254 counties in Texas.
I am going to send emails to Montgomery and Brazoria County Representatives, and to the School Board of both, as I own property there.

Are there any other Lizards that live or own property in Texas that feel that our taxpaying voice needs to be considered in choosing Textbooks that are not keeping the courts wishes of separation of church and state by suggesting ID in it's curriculum?

We have until Jan. to decide the future of the science curriculum in Tx. and to stop this encroachment and set presidence to the rest of the nation that we do not want creationism, ID or evolution taught in our lower and middle school science curriculum.

225 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:14pm

re: #130 pingjockey

Well you said it more succinctly than me!

Yes she did!

226 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:17pm

re: #201 Haverwilde

The problem with 'teaching the controversy' is that it adds legitimacy to that position. Using the logic of the IDers we could also discuss why it would be appropriate to reestablish slavery, or the legitimacy of the earth being flat

Indeed. Which is why I've continued to bring up Holocaust denial in history class as a comparison. That's the gist of ID- it's evolution denial. Just because creationists reject the facts of biology doesn't mean they're right, just like Holocaust denial doesn't change the facts of history.

This is a very dangerous, slippery slope. I'm surprised that even those who might not accept evolution would be so incapable of seeing the possibility of unintended consequences from this agenda.

227 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:32pm
228 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:35pm

re: #219 OldLineTexan
Thanks. Some stuff gets by me sometimes.

229 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:39pm
230 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:49pm
231 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:54pm

re: #148 OldLineTexan

Your labels are broad, vague, and confusing.

If "religious conservative" is code for something, please show me some accepted usage.

I get a little tired of the overuse of "fundamentalist" as well. The meaning has gone out of the word, and people are starting to assign their own private definitions. Hard to carry on a conversation that way.

Good point. And to me the evolution/DI issue isn't even about Christianity per se, but rather about any religious group which tries to hijack the science curriculum and impose their views on other people's children. Including the anti-evolution Islamists.
How about the phrases "religious whacko zealots" or "religious extremist nutjobs"?

232 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:53:59pm
233 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:13pm
234 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:33pm

re: #216 Salamantis

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

Doesn't work because that's what the Chicoms call almost any Christian.

235 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:41pm
236 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:48pm

DON'T QUOTE NASTY COMMENTS! Guys- come on!

237 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:54:53pm

re: #224 notutopia

Do you have it currently leased for oil & gas? :)

238 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:55:12pm
239 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:55:33pm

Quit quoting the troll. You're making more work for our host.

240 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:01pm
241 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:06pm

re: #109 Thanos

Speaking of that I just got around to reading the manual on my new stove, it has a Shabbath feature that turns off the computer inside automatically.

My new stove has that too.
And I'm not Jewish.

242 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:14pm

re: #226 Sharmuta
That is a very good analogy. Unintended consequences in untold numbers.

243 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:52pm

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans

Because his head is stuck in the cupboard and he can't see?

Nice talk, expert. Look above and you'll see my response to the reasonable question.

244 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:56:55pm

re: #236 Sharmuta

DON'T QUOTE NASTY COMMENTS! Guys- come on!

Just echoing this here. For newbies...if someone makes a particulary nasty comment and you want to respond it is better to use the reply and not the quote and therefore the nastiness doesn't get requoted. Also, as has just happened, Charles deleted comment 208 but by requoteing you are risking getting your comment deleted as well.

245 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:57:04pm

re: #241 reine.de.tout

My new stove has that too.
And I'm not Jewish.

I'm not Jewish either, but it's a cool feature. One that was never thought of when they dreamt up the first computer.

246 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:57:37pm

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?

247 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:14pm

re: #246 MandyManners
Yep. The fecal matter hit the rotary air impellor.

248 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:39pm

OT: If you haven't already read it, Jonah Goldberg hit one out of the park:

In an attempt to dial down expectations for his administration, President-elect Barack Obama’s supporters have dropped much of the “messiah” talk.

No more talk of him being The One (Oprah), or a Jedi Knight (George Lucas), or a “Lightworker” (the San Francisco Chronicle), or a “quantum leap in American consciousness” (Deepak Chopra). Instead we have more humble and circumspect conversation about the man. Now he’s merely Abraham Lincoln and FDR and Martin Luther King, combined.

It’s a step down from divine redeemer, but you have to start somewhere.

It gets better:

I was on Fox News the other night to throw some cold water on this Obama-as-Lincoln stuff. Alan Colmes of Hannity & Colmes chastised me, asking if we shouldn’t give Obama “a chance to actually spread his wings and fly a little bit” before disparaging him.

Fine. I actually agree with that. Conservatives should not denounce Obama’s performance before he’s had a chance to, you know, perform.

But, shouldn’t we also hold off on comparing the guy to FDR and Lincoln before he’s done anything?

Obama hasn’t even taken the oath of office yet, and it’s already an unfair right-wing attack to say that Obama isn’t on par with Lincoln and FDR. What’s next? Will it be slander to say Obama’s a carbon-based life form? Will the Secret Service investigate you if you’re overheard saying you think Obama’s merely “OK”?

Go read the whole thing. :)

I happen to agree with him, btw: I think we should let Obama take office and actually do something with it before we start throwing figurative dead cats and rancid tomatoes.

Something that seems to be driving the moonbats around the bend (a short putt at most) is that Mr. Hope and Change is assembling Bill Clinton's third term. Heh.

249 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:51pm

re: #246 MandyManners

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?

Yes some jerk is giving us some "yo momma" comments and has already gotten a whack.

250 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:58:55pm

re: #243 Hobbes

Nice talk, expert. Look above and you'll see my response to the reasonable question.

Sarcasm is not your strong suit, eh?

251 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:59:37pm

re: #240 ploome hineni
The comment did disappear fast. Interesing. When I wrote it I thought the lizards would make quick work of eviscerating him.

252 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 7:59:48pm

Salamantis has appeared. We have the entire squad assembled.

253 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:00:07pm

re: #242 pingjockey

That is a very good analogy. Unintended consequences in untold numbers.

Thanks, ping. I think I shall demand we teach the controversy in grammar class.

Ending sentences with prepositions is something with which we should put up. ;)

254 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:00:22pm

Heyzuese is just using the big kid words he learned on the playground today.

255 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:00:33pm
256 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:19pm

re: #216 Salamantis

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

"Imperial" seems a tad overdone.

"Biblical literalist" I can understand.

257 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:21pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Heh.

258 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:21pm
259 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:29pm

It's 30 degrees here in November. Dang that global warming!

260 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #216 Salamantis

May I offer the phrase 'imperialist Biblical literalist'?

I used to be that way until it began to dawn on me that if I knew everything there was to know about religion, or the Bible, or God, or whatever, then I was saying that I had universal knowledge of that subject. Since it is a fundamental belief that God is all-encompassing that could only mean that I knew everything as well. That would make me equal to God, at least when it comes to knowledge. That is not a position from which i could ague with any success. Therefore, there must be things I either do not know or I know imperfectly. My quest is to reveal those in such a way that I am not supremely embarrassed by something I may have said in the past. I also attempt to avoid making statements that have a high potential of eventual embarrassment. I fail, often, at both.

Oh well...

Joe

261 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:56pm

re: #255 ploome hineni

lol

He's late.

262 zelnaga  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:01:56pm

Evolution has its problems, but then again, so does gravity. Why is gravity such a weak force?

In my Astronomy class in high school, the fact that the universe is expanding was discussed, yet the teacher didn't pose the fact that "[url=[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] energy of the vacuum [doesn't] cause a large cosmological constant[/url]" as a problem.

Evolution should not be getting special treatment and problems within it are beyond the scope of most grade-school classes, imho.

263 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:04pm

Damn, I already missed the deletion!

264 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:13pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

Sure- we should also open up history class and allow for teaching the controversy on the Holocaust.

The fact is- there is no controversy. The only people pushing the "controversy" meme *oddly* are the people profiting off it.

True enough. There is no serious scientific controversy here. Nor have I suggested that the curriculum should ignore facts or subjects that are the supporting evidence for the central theory of biology. What there is is a political controversy. And I'm proposing a political resolution.

I was going to try to follow your analogy, but you apparently missed the point of what I was saying in the comment you quoted. (And my previous comments besides.)

265 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:14pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Thanks, ping. I think I shall demand we teach the controversy in grammar class.

Ending sentences with prepositions is something with which we should put up. ;)

I think you are clearly violating the rights of all prepositions to be last; and I will just leave that comment as is.

266 notutopia  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:24pm

I'm ACTING on this encroachment and I'm emailing my letters and I'm going to bed, Night all.
WALK YOUR TALK LIZARDS!
:0

267 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:39pm

I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?

268 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:02:40pm

re: #259 theparson

Yep and I think it's gonna get to 28 here in pp.

269 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:03:45pm

Yikes. Spacejesus exploded or something?

270 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:03:59pm

re: #246 MandyManners

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?

Tell me about it. I took out the trash, and when I got back...

271 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:04:39pm

re: #246 MandyManners

I tuck The Kid in and it hits the fan?


Yup. We were giving a practical demonstration to newbies of what the numbering system means, as well as showing off Charles' expertise on the guillotine trip-wire.

ZZZTT--WHOP! (Cheers) Just like back in France, in the good old days.
.

272 Jim D  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:04:56pm

re: #191 big steve

There is no controversy to teach.

273 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:04:57pm

re: #269 Dar ul Harb
Black holes turn up in the damndest places.

274 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:05:13pm

re: #268 favorednation

Yep and I think it's gonna get to 28 here in pp.

By pp do you mean the PP north of A and south of T?

275 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:05:42pm

re: #268 favorednation

Yep and I think it's gonna get to 28 here in pp.

We had a windchill of 3 and a temp of 12 last night. Supposed to be 16 tonight. A little global warming sure would be nice for the deer opener tomorrow.

276 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:05:52pm

re: #274 theparson

yup

277 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:02pm

Another idiot on deck...

278 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:10pm

re: #267 Emphasis

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant?


Self preservation is not the predominant drive for life. Reproduction is. It's the reason teenage boys do stupid things to impress girls.

279 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:23pm

re: #262 zelnaga

Evolution has its problems, but then again, so does gravity. Why is gravity such a weak force?


Evolution should not be getting special treatment and problems within it are beyond the scope of most grade-school classes, imho.

This is a very good point. As you mention on basic theories such as gravity, or even the laws of thermodynamics there are unsettling questions. For example, Maxwell's equations predict that something called a magnetic monopole must exist yet it has not been found. However at the grade school and even high school level, this is not the intent. In science at this level, one is trying to ground students in the basics and teach them how to use these theories to build scientific structure.

280 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:42pm

re: #276 favorednation

yup

Well bust my britches! How'd you know I was in A?

281 Tamron  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:06:51pm

re: #259 theparson

It's 30 degrees here in November. Dang that global warming!


It's about 5 above here in Anchorage, Parson. GOOD LORD, it's cold!

:-)
.

282 Big Steve  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:16pm

re: #278 Neo Con since 9-11

Self preservation is not the predominant drive for life. Reproduction is. It's the reason teenage boys do stupid things to impress girls.

and the girls fall for it.

283 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:37pm

re: #275 logboy

I haven't had a chance to hunt this year. I need to find a place. All my knives are sharp and I bought a new grinder so I'm ready if I get one. :)

284 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:38pm

re: #267 Emphasis

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant?

I would think reproduction as a means of self-preservation would be evident enough.

285 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:42pm

re: #269 Dar ul Harb

Yikes. Spacejesus exploded or something?

Implosion from the hard vacuum between the ears.

286 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:44pm

re: #256 OldLineTexan

"Imperial" seems a tad overdone.

"Biblical literalist" I can understand.

Well, the problem isn't with Biblical literalists per se, since there is freedom of religion in this country; it is with that subset of them that strives to illegitimately and unconstitutionally force their particular sectarian religious dogmas onto other peoples' kids in public high school science classes. That sounds kinda imperialistic, or hegemonistic, to me. Maybe 'coercive' would be an acceptable adjective.

287 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:07:55pm
288 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:08:07pm

re: #280 theparson

What if I said "God told me" ? :)

289 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:08:12pm

re: #277 Noam Sayin'

Another idiot on deck...

Thats Mr. Idiot, tyvm.

290 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:24pm

re: #283 favorednation

I haven't had a chance to hunt this year. I need to find a place. All my knives are sharp and I bought a new grinder so I'm ready if I get one. :)


Where do you live? Farmers usually let you hunt their land.

291 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:39pm

re: #191 big steve

I got to admit to being of two minds here. I am not religious and believe that evolution is well proven. If it were as simple as teaching a controversy or just letting evolution sort of self prove itself, I would be ok with that. However, what people really want to do is not teach the controversy, they want to provide alternatives that, at the basics, are metaphysical and not science.

The only controversy is why people are trying to mask religion as science and are trying to wedge it into the school science curriculum.

292 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:45pm

Dear Sharmuta...Look at all the deletes. This is why I stay out of these discussions.

293 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:09:45pm

re: #286 Salamantis

[...] that subset of them that strives to illegitimately and unconstitutionally force their particular sectarian religious dogmas onto other peoples' kids in public high school science classes [...]

Theocratic evangelists?

294 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:10:22pm

I was on here with another name for a few years 'til I figured out that name was not an accurate portreyal. I'm kinda slow about those things.

295 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:10:48pm

re: #293 Dan G.

Theocratic evangelists?

Theocratic...very descriptive. What does "evangelist" have to do with it?

296 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:10:57pm

re: #288 favorednation

What if I said "God told me" ? :)


Call me... skeptical.

297 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:04pm

re: #262 zelnaga

Gravity is a bitch. My exercise regimen now includes climbing a 2 thousand foot mountain.

298 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:25pm

re: #290 logboy

You have to pay for that privelage where I live and good land is hard to get. There's a waiting list to hunt.

299 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:29pm

re: #287 B52 Pizza

Guess the Christian church isn't so lacking in knowledge.

Where did Haverwilde say they were?

BTW- the Catholic Church supports the teachings of evolution.

300 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:49pm

re: #295 OldLineTexan

I understand evangelism as the active spread of religion. The theocratic descriptor differentiates it from the private/non-political form.

301 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:11:51pm

Gravity sucks. Good thing too.

302 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:15pm

re: #287 B52 Pizza

Give me a break! It was the Christian movement that led to the slave industry ending in England in the early to mid 1800's.

As far as the Earth being flat the book of "Isaiah" in the Bible defined the Earth being Round. That was written 690 years BC.

Guess the Christian church isn't so lacking in knowledge.

(Glass breaking) "How dare I say that!"

But isn't okay to discuss the controversy? I mean after all, one bovine scat topic has the same legitimacy as any other one?

303 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:26pm

re: #262 zelnaga

Evolution has its problems, but then again, so does gravity. Why is gravity such a weak force?

Jump off a building and see how weak it is.

304 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:28pm

Alright, I'm seriously beginning to think Charles makes these threads just to weed out the loonies and entertain the rest of us with their behavior. Admit it, they are pretty damn funny to listen to.

305 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:41pm

re: #275 logboy

What, is Al Gore giving a lecture in your neighborhood?

306 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:50pm

re: #250 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sarcasm is not your strong suit, eh?

I didn't say that.

307 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:52pm
308 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:12:57pm

re: #294 favorednation

I was on here with another name for a few years 'til I figured out that name was not an accurate portreyal. I'm kinda slow about those things.

Gotcha! We used to time the train from your city to mine. We need to have coffee sometime.

309 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:12pm

re: #300 Dan G.

I understand evangelism as the active spread of religion. The theocratic descriptor differentiates it from the private/non-political form.

ID/Creationism is not the Gospel.

310 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:16pm

re: #296 theparson

If you recall, a few years ago I was taking a job out of town and had to give away all my potted tomato plants. You had mentioned that you were going to pick them up.

311 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:22pm

re: #287 B52 Pizza

Was that round or was that spherical? Two dimensions or three?

For that matter the earth really is an oblate spheroid, so is neither round nor spherical.

312 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:40pm

re: #301 pingjockey

Gravity sucks. Good thing too.

Lovely quote, may I borrow it?

313 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:44pm

re: #304 logboy

Alright, I'm seriously beginning to think Charles makes these threads just to weed out the loonies and entertain the rest of us with their behavior. Admit it, they are pretty damn funny to listen to.

FNDT.

314 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:51pm

re: #185 Moe Katz

Lynn B. must be taking Salamantis's shift on this thread. She's lurking and dinging.

Actually, I'm catching up. But don't let that interfere with your paranoid fantasies...

315 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:52pm

re: #301 pingjockey

Gravity sucks. Good thing too.

HA!

Why doesn't Texas slide into the Gulf?

'Cuz Oklahoma sucks!

/

316 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:13:59pm

re: #298 favorednation

You have to pay for that privelage where I live and good land is hard to get. There's a waiting list to hunt.

Colorado? where are you? Why not go to another state?

317 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:04pm

yup one just went by.

318 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:08pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Wow. You're a tolerant fellow aren't you?

319 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:11pm

re: #312 Haverwilde
Help yourself!

320 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:19pm

re: #292 Hobbes

Dear Hobbes- that's because people quoted one troll. Trolls should not be quoted. It had nothing to do with the subject matter either. I've seen other threads get higher deletions than this- and they weren't ID threads. It's usually because of troll nastiness (which can happen on any thread any time) and people using "quote" over "reply".

321 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:24pm
322 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:26pm

There's lots of controversies within the science of evolutionary biology, but the particular book that Discovery institute is pimping doesn't explore any of those. Instead it puts forth the standard quibbles designed to discredit the theory en toto that appear on pages in AIG, ICR, and their websites, all debunked.

323 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:48pm

Charles is listening to "The Goodbye Look" again.

I happen to like The Nightfly. The story of "The Goodbye Look" would make a fine short story, if it weren't already a pretty fair song.

324 moogie  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:14:59pm

WOW! I finally was able to sign up tonight after 4 years! Thanks so much everyone for being there for all us silent ones during the election. Now that I can post, I really look forward to entering in when I can.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!

325 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:01pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Now, that's just nasty.

326 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:09pm

re: #305 Steffan

What, is Al Gore giving a lecture in your neighborhood?

//Yes, he's telling everyone how he's setting the example with his energy bill.

327 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:13pm

Won't you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?

328 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:14pm

re: #267 Emphasis

I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:
If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?

I respect your need to believe in a supreme being as the programmer.
Just keep your religious views out of the science classroom and respect others' right to learn science without religious harassment.

329 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:15pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

B52 Pizza
Karma: -5
Registered since: Nov 21, 2008 at 6:18 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 4

/good work, expecting to live past ten?

330 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:25pm

out of state liscenses are EXPENSIVE. I'm in the Lonestar State.

331 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:48pm
332 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:50pm

re: #310 favorednation

If you recall, a few years ago I was taking a job out of town and had to give away all my potted tomato plants. You had mentioned that you were going to pick them up.

I do remember. By the way, here comes the train. LOL
I gotta go to bed. If you come by the Police Station I'll buy the coffee.

333 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Well for you information I can't be a Catholic because I can't drink that much.

Catholic joke:

Why do you always take two Baptists fishing?

Because if you take only one, he'll drink all your beer!

334 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #315 OldLineTexan
I've heard that from some Texas Navy guys.

335 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:55pm

The Door is open?

336 legalpad  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:57pm

re: #297 rawmuse

Gravity is a bitch. My exercise regimen now includes climbing a 2 thousand foot mountain.

What - like everyday?

337 AMER1CAN  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:15:59pm

I had a great biology teacher when I use to be in school. Really loved her class. She was an excellent professor. First biology class of the year we spent about 3 minutes covering religious views and that were not here to insult anyone views, but we are here to learn biology. Then we never talked about religion again. We spent each and every day learning and studying biology and I must say it is awesome and fascinating. Wonderful learning experience!

338 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:07pm

re: #309 OldLineTexan

The wedge document states that their fundamental goal to to "bring people to Jesus". Isn't that the basis for evangelism? (honest question, not trolling).

339 leap  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:22pm

re: #110 i poop u scoop

See?
One learns fast around here.
:D

340 Jim D  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:23pm

re: #279 Big Steve

For example, Maxwell's equations predict that something called a magnetic monopole must exist yet it has not been found.

They don't predict this. The equation that states that the divergence of the magnetic field is zero means there is no monopole.

341 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:25pm

re: #314 Lynn B.

Actually, I'm catching up. But don't let that interfere with your paranoid fantasies...

Ha, so you're late too! A sad showing my dear. You know there's deviant thought out here to extirpate.

342 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:26pm

re: #267 Emphasis

I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?

Genes code for the instincts to reproduce, and to guard and nurture young in some cases (in others, such as salmon spawning, guarding young is not part of the process - they deal with differing environmental circumstances that do not require such mechanisms). The genes that code, for instance in mammals and birds, for guarding and nurturing, were environmentally selected. Those genes that did not code for this, in species where guarding and nurturing is critical for surviving to reproductive age, did not produce offspring containing them that themselves survived long enough to reproduce, and thus those genes died out.

343 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:28pm

re: #324 moogie

WOW! I finally was able to sign up tonight after 4 years! Thanks so much everyone for being there for all us silent ones during the election. Now that I can post, I really look forward to entering in when I can.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!


Did Charles just open the flood gates again?

344 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:16:36pm

re: #327 Charles

Won't you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?

I like a Cuba Libre!

345 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:20pm

Oh, and the gate is open I see.

This should be interesting.

346 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:28pm

re: #337 AMER1CAN

I had a great biology teacher when I use to be in school. Really loved her class. She was an excellent professor. First biology class of the year we spent about 3 minutes covering religious views and that were not here to insult anyone views, but we are here to learn biology. Then we never talked about religion again. We spent each and every day learning and studying biology and I must say it is awesome and fascinating. Wonderful learning experience!

That was a good way to approach the issue.

347 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:29pm

re: #324 moogie

WOW! I finally was able to sign up tonight after 4 years! Thanks so much everyone for being there for all us silent ones during the election. Now that I can post, I really look forward to entering in when I can.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!

Welcome, is reg open?

348 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:56pm

re: #331 B52 Pizza

Glad you cleared that up.

Now if the Earth was flat would it be 1 or 2 dimensional?

Flat is 2.

Linear is 1.

349 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:17:56pm

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS as a good way to classify and organize organisms. I never considered it as a continuum of development. It the latter is true, then, what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

350 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:21pm

re: #322 Thanos

And I'm not sure I'd call them controversies (at least if you are referring to unsolved questions). Such as how epigenetic marks are differentially communicated during asymmetric division (i.e. stem cell differentiation). It isn't so much a controversy as an unresolved issue; it won't contradict what is already known...

351 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:24pm

re: #331 B52 Pizza

Glad you cleared that up.

Now if the Earth was flat would it be 1 or 2 dimensional?

Two for the length and breadth, but that is neither here nor there with regards to your prior statement since the Bible is not and never has been a science textbook.

352 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #332 theparson

OK. Are you on the force there?

353 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:42pm

re: #338 Dan G.

The wedge document states that their fundamental goal to to "bring people to Jesus". Isn't that the basis for evangelism? (honest question, not trolling).

If that's their fundamental goal, they're evangelizing.

Not a thing to do in a science classroom - and besides which, haven't they ever studied predestination?

354 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:18:51pm

re: #330 favorednation

out of state liscenses are EXPENSIVE. I'm in the Lonestar State.

Surprising, I thought you guys could hunt all over. Yeah the cost some $. Depends on how bad you want to hunt. We're pretty lucky here in WI, 3 deer tags are $26. Each extra tag (no limit) is $2. I shot three last year, been eating them ever since.

355 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:17pm

re: #347 Thanos

Welcome, is reg open?


That's unfair on an evolution thread. Some unsuspecting "conservative" hatchlings are going to walk into a trap.

356 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:19pm

re: #338 Dan G.

The wedge document states that their fundamental goal to to "bring people to Jesus". Isn't that the basis for evangelism? (honest question, not trolling).

What they are trying to do is not evangelism. No matter what they call it. You can't lie for Jesus, in the end.

357 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:22pm

re: #345 Dar ul Harb

Oh, and the gate is open I see.

This should be interesting.

The Chinese did define interesting when it comes to epochs.

358 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:29pm

re: #342 Salamantis

Genes code for the instincts to reproduce,

How does that work? You seem to know pretty much everything about these things. Is it akin to passing down a memory? That might explain Shirley MacLaine.

359 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:19:59pm

re: #333 OldLineTexan

Catholic joke:

Why do you always take two Baptists fishing?

Because if you take only one, he'll drink all your beer!

Hey, that's a Baptist joke, only its the mormons we take fishing.

360 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:14pm

re: #349 favorednation

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS [that's Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species, y'all -DuH] as a good way to classify and organize organisms.

361 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:20pm

re: #331 B52 Pizza

If it were just 1, wouldn't it be a singularity?

362 theparson  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:37pm

re: #352 favorednation

OK. Are you on the force there?

Yes. Senior Corporal. Stop by and we'll talk about Ploomie!
Night all.

363 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:44pm

re: #356 OldLineTexan

What they are trying to do is not evangelism. No matter what they call it. You can't lie for Jesus, in the end.

Try to explain that to the IDers and the Discovery Institute people and they won't listen.

364 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:46pm

re: #355 Killgore Trout
That could end up being a very nasty welcome.

365 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:20:56pm

re: #359 Haverwilde

Hey, that's a Baptist joke, only its the mormons we take fishing.

I thought it was a Mormon joke, only its the Muslims they take fishing.

366 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:04pm

re: #348 OldLineTexan

Flat is 2.

Linear is 1.

The "flat" earth would still be 3 dimensional. Mines have depth, f'r instance. It's not flatland.

367 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:09pm

re: #356 OldLineTexan

The tally thus far... It is evangelism: 1 ; It is not evangelism: 1.

;) No mater, the adjective Theocratic will follow them where ever I speak/write/think.

368 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:21pm

re: #327 Charles

Won't you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?

I believe someone who was posting on this thread just got The Goodbye Look.

369 moogie  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:29pm

Registration was open for me! Maybe it was just my luck because of the post on evolution (I have a degree in invert.paleo) - but I sure jumped at the chance to evolve on up! Thanks again!

370 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:30pm

re: #289 logboy

I wasn't talking about you. You knew that, right?

371 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:33pm

re: #350 Dan G.

And I'm not sure I'd call them controversies (at least if you are referring to unsolved questions). Such as how epigenetic marks are differentially communicated during asymmetric division (i.e. stem cell differentiation). It isn't so much a controversy as an unresolved issue; it won't contradict what is already known...

Agreed, but to the scientists debating them they are hot, exciting controversies. I'm merely pointing out that portraying science as groupthink is naive at best. There's lots of exploring already without the need of DI"s book.

372 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:52pm

re: #361 favorednation

I think you'd have to be 0 to be a singularity. Is that irony?

373 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:21:56pm

re: #359 Haverwilde

Hey, that's a Baptist joke, only its the mormons we take fishing.

I heard it from a Catholic.

Why don't Baptist couples make love standing up?

Someone might see and think they were dancing!

374 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:01pm

re: #355 Killgore Trout

That's unfair on an evolution thread. Some unsuspecting "conservative" hatchlings are going to walk into a trap.

Maybe thats the point?

Whenever Charles posts one of these threads, I'm reminded of one of my favorite lines from the movie Braveheart.

"The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. "

375 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:06pm

re: #366 Dianna

The "flat" earth would still be 3 dimensional. Mines have depth, f'r instance. It's not flatland.

Still finding nits, eh? ;)

376 AMER1CAN  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:19pm

re: #346 MandyManners

Yeah, she handled the religious stuff up front. Short, simple and to the point. Not much to talk about. Basically people have their own indvidual beliefs. That's great. Nuff said. But when in the classroom, we were there to learn biology. And that's what we did!

377 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:23pm

re: #362 theparson

Aright. Night!

378 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:25pm

re: #320 Sharmuta

Dear Hobbes- that's because people quoted one troll. Trolls should not be quoted. It had nothing to do with the subject matter either. I've seen other threads get higher deletions than this- and they weren't ID threads. It's usually because of troll nastiness (which can happen on any thread any time) and people using "quote" over "reply".

No Trolls should not be quoted! But, I should probably still stay out of these heated discussions. You guys get along fine without me.

379 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:22:37pm

re: #363 FurryOldGuyJeans

Try to explain that to the IDers and the Discovery Institute people and they won't listen.

OK. And?

380 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:23:51pm

re: #374 logboy

Maybe thats the point?

Whenever Charles posts one of these threads, I'm reminded of one of my favorite lines from the movie Braveheart.

"The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. "

Great point, great line, great movie.

381 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:15pm

re: #349 favorednation

what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

/biological efficiency in their environment

382 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:15pm

re: #358 Mich-again

How does that work? You seem to know pretty much everything about these things. Is it akin to passing down a memory? That might explain Shirley MacLaine.

I don't think there's a natural explanation for Shirley MacLaine! Seriously, it takes a sophisticated society with seriously padded edges to create a world where that variety of solipsism can exist, and not result in someone pinning one to a tree over-night with a pitchfork.

383 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:25pm

re: #374 logboy

He was by far the best character in a very good film...
Stephen - The Mad Irishman

384 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:30pm

re: #372 Killgore Trout

NO. 0 is "unique". It has been proven. :)

385 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:24:35pm

re: #370 Noam Sayin'

I wasn't talking about you. You knew that, right?

Of course I did. But I'm not about to pass up an opportunity to make someone laugh.

386 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:06pm

re: #361 favorednation

If it were just 1, wouldn't it be a singularity?

A singularity has no dimensions.

387 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:07pm

re: #381 Killian Bundy

OIC. So is each in it's own "VPN"?

388 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:19pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

That is a completely stupid and idiotic thing to say.

389 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:38pm

Down on Key Plantain, walk a tropical mile...Florida Room

390 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:25:42pm

re: #386 FurryOldGuyJeans

No dimensions or all?

391 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:09pm

re: #373 OldLineTexan

I heard it from a Catholic.

Why don't Baptist couples make love standing up?

Someone might see and think they were dancing!


There was that standard phrase we used when someone asked us to do something 'interesting:' "Why not, can't dance!"

392 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:12pm

re: #388 reine.de.tout

That is a completely stupid and idiotic thing to say.

Now, now, mon cher, no one's perfect, and "completely" implies perfection.

393 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:56pm

re: #379 OldLineTexan

OK. And?

And nothing else. Trying to enlighten hard-core religious fanaticism is counterproductive and unachievable.

394 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:26:57pm

re: #286 Salamantis

Well, the problem isn't with Biblical literalists per se, since there is freedom of religion in this country; it is with that subset of them that strives to illegitimately and unconstitutionally force their particular sectarian religious dogmas onto other peoples' kids in public high school science classes. That sounds kinda imperialistic, or hegemonistic, to me. Maybe 'coercive' would be an acceptable adjective.

Coercive is a great word and a very good descriptor. Those that attempt to push their beliefs onto those that do not want them, and I used to be one of them, are basically insecure in their beliefs and gain personal satisfaction by convincing others to change their beliefs based on a some logical or irrefutable argument. However, most Christianity accepts that the strength of faith comes from the Spiritual not from secular arguments. By trusting coercion rather than the spiritual we say that God can not instruct without our help. Once again, not a good position from which to argue.

The creation argument is interesting. Almost no other discussion seems to generate the animosity from both sides. However, I can believe in a creating God and measurable evolutionary principles. What I have great difficulty accepting is that because certain evolutionary principles are shown to be true using scientific inquiry, then I must completely abandon my belief that the organizer and originator of the measurable order may be God.

Yet, this is what the dogmatic on the evolutionary side seen to want. It causes many of us to become defensive and get our hackles up when something that is greatly personal and deeply felt is ridiculed. Granted, there are likely parts of the things that I believe that will be shown to be wrong. A am a big boy, and I can take it. Just don't be too condescending to me when you are right.

As to evolution in school...teach it as science, not as philosophy or anti-religion and you will get no argument from me. Demonstrate the principles with scientific method, show the facts, examine the data, just refrain from concluding by saying "See, this proves that what you believe is stupid." If your science is solid, I will see it without the insults. Eventually. Sometime.

Joe

395 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:03pm

re: #349 favorednation

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS as a good way to classify and organize organisms. I never considered it as a continuum of development. It the latter is true, then, what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

Actually it's not so good anymore, with the discoveries of the past two decades or so people have generally migrated to phylogenetic trees. To many cross boundary species for the old method, and genetics is allowing scientists to see actual ancestry rather than theorized now.

As to your question on why some critters don't evolve the answer is both simple and complex: they haven't evolved because they are efficient enough for the niche they are in now.

396 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:05pm

re: #388 reine.de.tout

It won't get a chance to repeat it.

397 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:12pm

re: #375 FurryOldGuyJeans

Still finding nits, eh? ;)

Not...exactly.

I'm home, I'm tired, I'm avoiding writing. I take what I can get.

And all Charles has offered me is asking if Gretchen won't pour him a Cuban Breeze.

398 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:17pm

re: #371 Thanos

And the closest thing to a controversy now is that perhaps DNA isn't the only source of "genes" (as originally defined... the unit of inheritance) since some epigenetic marks are heritable. No contradiction, but it will "feel" like one for some.

399 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:28pm

re: #311 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was that round or was that spherical? Two dimensions or three?

For that matter the earth really is an oblate spheroid, so is neither round nor spherical.

If you go far enough away, it's a blue dot. A pinpoint.

400 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:28pm

re: #382 Dianna

solipsism

If this were the ACT test I would have to guess that solipsism means idiocy.

401 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:48pm

re: #336 legalpad

So far for the last 2 weeks. I am sick of the gym. They have CNN and The View on and it is full of moon bats. So I started to drive to this mountain, and climbing it.

Now, I leave the car at home and walk there from my house. I usually do about 8 to 10 miles, and I carry a 12 pound pack with water and food.

The view has been outstanding lately.

402 fiat_lux  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:27:51pm

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

403 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:03pm

re: #390 favorednation

No dimensions or all?

In geometric terms:

A point (a singularity) has no dimension.

A line has one.

A plane has two.

404 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:19pm

re: #387 favorednation

OIC. So is each in it's own "VPN"?

/in the King's English?

405 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:22pm

re: #373 OldLineTexan

I heard it from a Catholic.

Why don't Baptist couples make love standing up?

Someone might see and think they were dancing!

Yes, this is the joke that really makes the rounds in Catholic circles.

406 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:23pm

re: #391 Haverwilde
Sorry, but that "dance" statement brought up another joke:

Why won't Baptist girls have sex standing up?

Ans: Because someone might see them and think they're dancing:)

I know it's bad but it is kinda funny.

407 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:28:46pm

"Perfectly Stupid." Hmm. It has a nice ring.
re: #392 OldLineTexan

408 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:17pm

re: #401 rawmuse

Careful, you might be owning gravity now, but it is quite unforgiving the day you slip.

409 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:19pm

re: #393 FurryOldGuyJeans

And nothing else. Trying to enlighten hard-core religious fanaticism is counterproductive and unachievable.

I wasn't doing that. We were discussing labels, in order to prevent lumping everyone into groups so vague as to be useless for the purpose of description. Hence the question.

410 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:31pm

re: #392 OldLineTexan

Now, now, mon cher, no one's perfect, and "completely" implies perfection.


I only have one nerve left tonight, and he/she/whatever just got on it with that.

411 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:29:33pm

re: #402 fiat_lux
Ha! Don't blame the machine. It is always operator error.

412 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:00pm

re: #341 Moe Katz

Ha, so you're late too! A sad showing my dear. You know there's deviant thought out here to extirpate.

Well eff you very much sweetie, but Shabbat dinner takes precedence over keeping current on LGF threads. Sorry if that offends your ... whatever.

/and a very good shabbos to you, too.

413 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:06pm

re: #401 rawmuse

So far for the last 2 weeks. I am sick of the gym. They have CNN and The View on and it is full of moon bats. So I started to drive to this mountain, and climbing it.

Now, I leave the car at home and walk there from my house. I usually do about 8 to 10 miles, and I carry a 12 pound pack with water and food.

The view has been outstanding lately.

That was so inspiring, I'm giving you an upding for it. Good for you.

If you tell the gym you're quitting because you're so disgusted by The View, I'll give you ten more!

414 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:11pm

re: #349 favorednation

I have always thought of the KPCOFGS as a good way to classify and organize organisms. I never considered it as a continuum of development. It the latter is true, then, what happened to thwart the development of those more primitive life forms that still exist?

There is no abstract ideal of progress in some Platonic biospace that pulls evolution forward towards greater intelligence or complexity. Species just evolve to more efficiently exploit their environmental niches. Where there isn't much improvement to be had, there's no selection pressure to evolve further.

415 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:16pm

re: #307 B52 Pizza

Buh-bye, asshole.

416 Jim D  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:19pm

re: #361 favorednation

Lines or curves are one dimensional. Points are zero dimensional. A singularity is when the value of something (a mathematical function,say, representing the strength of an electric or gravitational field) becomes infinite at a point.

417 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:36pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

Your computer needs to learn who's boss.

418 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:47pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

SHOOT YER COMPUTER.

419 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:30:48pm

re: #408 Dan G.

Careful, you might be owning gravity now, but it is quite unforgiving the day you slip.

Well, it's either that or I just stay in bed and blog.

420 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:01pm

re: #390 favorednation

No dimensions or all?

Yup, no dimensions, a line has one, a plane has two, a cube has three, and so on.

421 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:06pm

re: #415 MandyManners
Dat is 2 down, IIRC.

422 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:47pm

re: #401 rawmuse

So far for the last 2 weeks. I am sick of the gym. They have CNN and The View on and it is full of moon bats. So I started to drive to this mountain, and climbing it.

Now, I leave the car at home and walk there from my house. I usually do about 8 to 10 miles, and I carry a 12 pound pack with water and food.

The view has been outstanding lately.

Good for you. And the funny thing is, they are supposed to be the "green" ones.

423 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:31:55pm

re: #406 favorednation

So I need you to step on my jokes?

/

424 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:04pm

re: #421 pingjockey

Dat is 2 down, IIRC.

Who was the other?

425 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:11pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Love that picture. Are you an Alaskan?

426 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:14pm

re: #396 Sharmuta

It won't get a chance to repeat it.

So I just saw.

/It will be awhile until I can even think of pizza.

427 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:19pm

re: #399 Steffan

If you go far enough away, it's a blue dot. A pinpoint.

Perspective doesn't change the essential nature of things in the material dimension.

428 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:26pm

re: #395 Thanos

Actually it's not so good anymore, with the discoveries of the past two decades or so people have generally migrated to phylogenetic trees. To many cross boundary species for the old method, and genetics is allowing scientists to see actual ancestry rather than theorized now.

As to your question on why some critters don't evolve the answer is both simple and complex: they haven't evolved because they are efficient enough for the niche they are in now.

The very idea of species is increasingly dubious - your average cubic centimeter of dirt, has enough slightly different bacteria to make classification moot, now that we can sequence their DNA and really see.

Critters don't evolve because - there is no impetus to evolution, evolution is the name we give to variation and selection over time. If it doesn't happen, there's nothing to name. But it's not like there's a river of evolution washing things downhill.

429 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:33pm

re: #419 rawmuse

No. Climb, just remain cognizant of what you're facing... no complacency.

430 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:35pm

re: #396 Sharmuta

It won't get a chance to repeat it.

That was quick!
Ok, the one nerve I had left today has been restored.

431 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:38pm

re: #400 Mich-again

If this were the ACT test I would have to guess that solipsism means idiocy.

Top of Dianna's head definition:

The belief that one is the sole reality, and all else is a figment of one's imagination.

Chesterton has a lovely story, in which a young man suffering from solipsism is pinned to a tree with a pitchfork overnight (I think it's a Father Brown, but I'd have to check).

The young man gets over his solipsism. He's even grateful (that's the part that makes it clear it's fiction).

432 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:44pm

Late for pizza again, I see.

433 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:52pm

re: #409 OldLineTexan

I wasn't doing that. We were discussing labels, in order to prevent lumping everyone into groups so vague as to be useless for the purpose of description. Hence the question.

It's a good idea but the left will coopt any label to make people look bad regardless. If you don't believe me google '"sarah palin" dominionist'

434 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:54pm

re: #424 MandyManners
The character who insulted you and your mom.

435 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:32:56pm

re: #403 OldLineTexan

In geometric terms:

A point (a singularity) has no dimension.

A line has one.

A plane has two.

Some years ago, Scientific American had a little article hypothesizing about what a two-dimensional world would be like. They called it "Flatland." As I recall, the hardest part was figuring out how the Flatlanders could have a gastrointestinal tract that ran all the way from one end to the other, without it dividing them into two separate pieces.

436 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:38pm

re: #401 rawmuse

Today was remarkably pretty. Even for the Bay Area, I must say.

It almost made me remember why I like San Francisco.

437 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:42pm

re: #358 Mich-again

How does that work? You seem to know pretty much everything about these things. Is it akin to passing down a memory? That might explain Shirley MacLaine.

Nope; just impulses to engage in certain behaviors.

438 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:42pm

re: #420 FurryOldGuyJeans

And each pixel on your monitor has 6 dimensions... (2 position, and 4 color/light) not all dimensions are spatial.

439 legalpad  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:33:54pm

re: #401 rawmuse

God - A gym with TV - horrible! One of my hangouts plays CNN all the time. When my friends aren't loud enough to drowned them out, I have an Ipod playing in my ears. My Gym(s) have no TVs.
Fantastic solution you have, though! Looks great!

440 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:34:02pm

re: #394 VibeManJoe

I was about to ding you up until I got to this:

What I have great difficulty accepting is that because certain evolutionary principles are shown to be true using scientific inquiry, then I must completely abandon my belief that the organizer and originator of the measurable order may be God.

There is a subset of atheist scientists who may promote this notion, but quite a few "evolutionists" are also people of faith. The book I linked to in #11 is one of these people- a Catholic biologist. It's as Lao Stinky has said:

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution. Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God. Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

441 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:34:24pm

I believe you, although I bet I could find wackier sites about Sarah Palin.

re: #433 Thanos

442 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:34:35pm

Evening all y'all - how is everyone this COLD (26 degrees NOW in Charlotte N.C. - ya know, in the Southland!) Autumn evening?

443 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:12pm

re: #431 Dianna

Wow. You rattled that off just like that. Pretty heavy.

444 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:31pm

re: #442 realwest
Fine. I believe it is warmer up here in the Cascades than where you are!

445 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #438 Dan G.

And each pixel on your monitor has 6 dimensions... (2 position, and 4 color/light) not all dimensions are spatial.

Now you are arguing semantics outside of a mathematical model.

446 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:45pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

Welcome to the team!

447 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:35:53pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi Fiat
I hate when my computer does that. I type something wise and meaningful, set down the vodka bottle to hit the "post this comment button", and then my computer posts some asinine gibberish.
Welcome to the community.

448 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:36:31pm

re: #444 pingjockey
Hey Ping - wouldn't surprise me at all. What is it up by you?

449 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:04pm

re: #434 pingjockey

The character who insulted you and your mom.

Huh? That B52 creature?

450 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:09pm

BTW, I blame Al Gore for this effin' climate change.
It's not his fault, but I like blaming him.

451 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:15pm

re: #341 Moe Katz

Ha, so you're late too! A sad showing my dear. You know there's deviant thought out here to extirpate.

Lynn, you're a lawyer, are you not?

452 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:20pm

re: #444 pingjockey
Where in the Cascades?

453 little boomer  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:25pm

re: #442 realwest

November is autumn in New England in theory only...

454 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:48pm

re: #448 realwest
Not a heck of a lot. Planning the assualt on the house by the Christmas lighting fiend.

455 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:37:53pm

re: #404 Killian Bundy

hmmm Vector Space? or... within it's own private environs where it is immune to the "evolutionary forces" that would "naturally" still be acting upon it.


VPN= virtual private network

456 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:05pm

re: #449 MandyManners

Huh? That B52 creature?

roses are red
violets are blue
your nose looks like a B52 . . .

457 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:06pm

re: #449 MandyManners

Huh? That B52 creature?

No, that spaced-dude.

458 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:06pm

re: #447 Neo Con since 9-11 LOL! Then don't set the bottle down, use your other hand to post!

459 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:10pm

re: #445 FurryOldGuyJeans

No. A dimension is an orthogonal unit, the collection of which forms an orthonormal basis. This reifying of dimensions is non-sense.

460 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:17pm

re: #412 Lynn B.

Well eff you very much sweetie, but Shabbat dinner takes precedence over keeping current on LGF threads. Sorry if that offends your ... whatever.

/and a very good shabbos to you, too.

Oops, meant that to respond to your post. You're an attorney, is that correct?

461 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:21pm

re: #443 Mich-again

Wow. You rattled that off just like that. Pretty heavy.

It's not my fault, entirely.

462 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:25pm

re: #449 MandyManners
Nah, That spacejesus cretin.

463 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:31pm

re: #278 Neo Con since 9-11

Self preservation is not the predominant drive for life. Reproduction is. It's the reason teenage boys do stupid things to impress girls.

I think you will find that the desire or drive to impress disappears when your life is on the line. In my experience fear is not an aphrodisiac nor a “performance” enhancer.

464 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:46pm

re: #432 jaunte

Late for pizza again, I see.

/This one was rancid.

465 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:38:54pm

re: #456 outsidephilly

roses are red
violets are blue
your nose looks like a B52 . . .

What are you having tonight?

466 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:39:41pm

re: #457 FurryOldGuyJeans

No, that spaced-dude.

re: #462 pingjockey

Nah, That spacejesus cretin.

He's still here.

467 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:39:58pm

re: #463 Emphasis

I think you will find that the desire or drive to impress disappears when your life is on the line. In my experience fear is not an aphrodisiac nor a “performance” enhancer.

You're kidding, right?

468 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:40:16pm

A Sarah Palin Thanksgiving

And then there’s this. You don’t have to be a huge animal lover to question why Governor Palin chose to be interviewed — while issuing a traditional seasonal pardon of a turkey — while turkeys were being executed in the background.

A happy thought for Thanksgiving dinner, your turkey was executed.

/ye gods, has it really come to this

469 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:40:19pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

I would think reproduction as a means of self-preservation would be evident enough.

Please!

470 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:40:22pm

re: #465 MandyManners

What are you having tonight?


. . . . , nothing

471 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:40:38pm

re: #466 MandyManners
Well, just damn. He got deleted.

472 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:40:39pm

re: #432 jaunte
Hey juante my friend - only cause you wanted your pizza with all the toppings! LOL!
How are ya my friend?

473 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:41:04pm

re: #459 Dan G.

No. A dimension is an orthogonal unit, the collection of which forms an orthonormal basis. This reifying of dimensions is non-sense.

Most of pure mathematics in nonsense to non-mathematicians and has no real world application, so exactly what is your point? ;)

474 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:41:19pm

re: #395 Thanos

Actually it's not so good anymore, with the discoveries of the past two decades or so people have generally migrated to phylogenetic trees. To many cross boundary species for the old method, and genetics is allowing scientists to see actual ancestry rather than theorized now.

As to your question on why some critters don't evolve the answer is both simple and complex: they haven't evolved because they are efficient enough for the niche they are in now.

Yep; genetics has been a real boon to cladistics; it's allowed mistakes to be corrected and the whole template to be cleaned up.

475 VibeManJoe  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:41:21pm

re: #440 Sharmuta

I really thought that is what I was saying, that evolution and religion need not be exclusive. I will try to communicate "more better" the next time. A subset of the proponents of evolution, and I suspect it is likely a small percentage, are indeed dogmatic is this way. Hey, it could be a response to dogmatic creationists. They both exist.

It is late and I must retire for the evening.

Play nice and give the hatchlings a break. Unless, of course they do not deserve it.

Joe

476 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:41:31pm

re: #469 Emphasis

Please!

What?

477 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:41:38pm

re: #435 Last Mohican

Some years ago, Scientific American had a little article hypothesizing about what a two-dimensional world would be like. They called it "Flatland." As I recall, the hardest part was figuring out how the Flatlanders could have a gastrointestinal tract that ran all the way from one end to the other, without it dividing them into two separate pieces.

I think that might have been spawned by the story told by A. Square, AKA Edwin Abbot.

478 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:41:50pm

re: #395 Thanos

Both interesting and temporal (referring to the "now" part).

479 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:42:07pm

re: #470 outsidephilly

. . . . , nothing

Same here.

480 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:42:23pm

re: #466 MandyManners

He's still here.

Yeah, but his comment got quoted by quite a few lizards and so stinky went into hyper-speed to delete all of them comments.

481 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:42:27pm

re: #471 pingjockey

Well, just damn. He got deleted.

Did that little fucker say something about my mother?

482 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:42:43pm

Got some live ones in the house tonight.

Damn. And I'm almost out of bourbon.

483 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:42:43pm

re: #429 Dan G.

To get there, I walk downhill a mile (I live on a high hill) then ascend another mile and a half. Then I get to the south end of the park. Then I go another 4 miles to the summit. From the summit I can see 3 other mountain tops (Diablo, Hamilton and Tamalpais) and all 3 major bridges of the Bay Area, plus both of the airports, and ships at sea. At the top I have lunch, and check in LGF with my iPhone. Every day I take a picture from the summit. I generally see some communication workers at the summit, tending the gardens of radio towers.

For wildlife we have red tailed hawks, coyote, red foxes, banana slugs, raccoons, pocket gophers, skunks, and the mission blue butterfly.

484 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:42:56pm

re: #463 Emphasis
Huh?

In my experience fear is not an aphrodisiac nor a “performance” enhancer.


Well in My experience fear is very much a performance enhancer - not for sex, but for damn near everything else!

485 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:20pm

re: #455 favorednation

hmmm Vector Space? or... within it's own private environs where it is immune to the "evolutionary forces" that would "naturally" still be acting upon it.

VPN= virtual private network

The shark is a perfect killing machine, why would it continue to "evolve"?

/evolution is what happens when a species is challenged by its environment

486 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:24pm

re: #479 MandyManners

Same here.

its so cold outside . . .

487 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:26pm

re: #475 VibeManJoe

I agreed with most of what you said- I just wasn't clear on your point there. Thanks for clarifying.

Have a nice night.

488 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:28pm

re: #480 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yeah, but his comment got quoted by quite a few lizards and so stinky went into hyper-speed to delete all of them comments.

Mr. Beaumont must have strong arms.

489 legalpad  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:28pm

re: #459 Dan G.

Dan, have you seen this?

490 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:30pm

Here's a good site to poke around the phylogenetic tree on.

[Link: tolweb.org...]

491 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:52pm

re: #481 MandyManners

Did that little fucker say something about my mother?

Yes, and it was REALLY inappropriate.

492 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:43:55pm

re: #473 FurryOldGuyJeans

Once the conversation began to discuss 2D worlds, then it crossed the line from pure math to application. I'm versed in linear algebra and so I know at least an entry level of the "pure" side of dimensionality and bases. But I'm also a scientist/engineer and therefore cringe when I hear people speaking about dimensions as though they are magical.

493 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:44:07pm

Getting back on topic (unless we're jus' drankin here)...

re: #187 Sharmuta

re: #201 Haverwilde

I'm not arguing for "teaching the controversy," because there is no serious scientific controversy. I'm just questioning whether teaching more than a bare mention of evolution, or any evolution at all, is a good use of the time in high school science class, when there's a lot more of biology that has deeper policy implications, and more practical benefit, that should be taught.

Teach the foundations and the evidence in high school, and the higher level theory in college.

494 fiat_lux  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:44:13pm

re: #425 Haverwilde

No I am not an Alaskan, but I have respect and admiration for those magnificent animals.

495 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:44:14pm

re: #437 Salamantis

Nope; just impulses to engage in certain behaviors.

"Impulse" sort of infers a reaction to a stimulus. But instincts are more than that. A salmon knows when, where and how to fight the way upstream to spawn. I am curious just how the chemistry works that behavior instructions get passed to the offspring. Even the simplest life form is more complicated than the most advanced human machine.

496 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:44:23pm

re: #482 Noam Sayin'
HEY NOAM! - almost out of bourbon? Pretty poor planning I'd say - you KNEW there was gonna be a FNDT didn't cha?

497 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:44:24pm

re: #468 Killian Bundy

A Sarah Palin Thanksgiving

A happy thought for Thanksgiving dinner, your turkey was executed.

/ye gods, has it really come to this

Maybe the morons of the MSM think that turkeys are cultivated in yeast vats and grow into the plastic bags we find in supermarkets.

498 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:44:44pm

re: #472 realwest

Doing pretty well tonight. It's semi-chilly here in Houston (40-ish).
Business slow. 401k hanging on. Children, health & family fine.
How are you?

499 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:18pm

re: #451 Moe Katz

Lynn, you're a lawyer, are you not?

Aren't we all? :)

500 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:24pm

re: #496 realwest

HEY NOAM! - almost out of bourbon? Pretty poor planning I'd say - you KNEW there was gonna be a FNDT didn't cha?

Awful poor planning if you ask me. Thought I had a bit more.

Perhaps that bad day at work I had on Wednesday was worse than I thought.

501 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:28pm

re: #486 outsidephilly

its so cold outside . . .

It sharpens the hope for Spring.

502 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:34pm

re: #451 Moe Katz

Lynn, you're a lawyer, are you not?

Guilty as charged.

/are we fighting about something? I try to aim down-dings at posts, not posters (with rare exceptions, of which you are not one). I expect others to do the same, to me, to anyone.

503 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:36pm

re: #482 Noam Sayin'

I've still got 4/5 of a bottle :) and some sprite; of course.

504 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:39pm

re: #483 rawmuse

Ah... paved climbing. I was imagining that you're scaling a precipice.

505 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:45:54pm

re: #478 favorednation

Both interesting and temporal (referring to the "now" part).

Yes over the next few years with the discoveries made recently I expect quite a few more experiments in forced evolution ala the famous bacteria experiment.

506 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:03pm

re: #491 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, and it was REALLY inappropriate.

I don't have a list of enemies but, if I did, he'd top it. In fact, he'd be the only one.

507 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:07pm

re: #492 Dan G.

Once the conversation began to discuss 2D worlds, then it crossed the line from pure math to application. I'm versed in linear algebra and so I know at least an entry level of the "pure" side of dimensionality and bases. But I'm also a scientist/engineer and therefore cringe when I hear people speaking about dimensions as though they are magical.

Which comment was that?

508 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:10pm

re: #468 Killian Bundy

A Sarah Palin Thanksgiving

A happy thought for Thanksgiving dinner, your turkey was executed.

/ye gods, has it really come to this

I can't help but wonder, though, how it is we've become so delicate, so far removed from how our food gets to our tables, that this was offensive to people.

509 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:20pm

re: #435 Last Mohican

Some years ago, Scientific American had a little article hypothesizing about what a two-dimensional world would be like. They called it "Flatland." As I recall, the hardest part was figuring out how the Flatlanders could have a gastrointestinal tract that ran all the way from one end to the other, without it dividing them into two separate pieces.

The original Flatland was 1884.

510 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:37pm

re: #477 Steffan

You just made my night!

I think you're right, and I think I never read the original story. My mission for the evening is suddenly clear.

511 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:39pm

re: #485 Killian Bundy

The shark is a perfect killing machine, why would it continue to "evolve"?

/evolution is what happens when a species is challenged by its environment

Of course, that is why those dogmatically opposed to evolution seem a bit detached from reality--they no longer allow themselves to be challenged by the truth (their environment).

512 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:51pm

re: #468 Killian Bundy

Turkeys were being executed?

I thought that only happened to Iranians?

513 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:46:55pm

re: #503 favorednation

Bourbon and Sprite?

Sacrilege.

Ice.

Only.

514 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:47:16pm

re: #481 MandyManners
Yes, and I gave him a WHACK and so did just about everybody else.

515 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:47:22pm

re: #501 MandyManners

It sharpens the hope for Spring.

wonder if January 20th will be cold . . . , or snowy.

516 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:47:29pm

re: #442 realwest

Evening all y'all - how is everyone this COLD (26 degrees NOW in Charlotte N.C. - ya know, in the Southland!) Autumn evening?

It's cold here in Illinois too. Either the teens or single digits. Second night in a row. No snow though. Where's Al Gore when you need him? Ha.

517 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:47:29pm

re: #492 Dan G.

I was speaking in the mathematical sense...what others were doing is not concern. ;)

518 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:47:32pm

re: #500 Noam Sayin'

(((Noam)))

519 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:13pm

re: #468 Killian Bundy

A Sarah Palin Thanksgiving

A happy thought for Thanksgiving dinner, your turkey was executed.

/ye gods, has it really come to this

The NYT still does not understand Sarah Palin. They expect her to be squeamish regarding animal slaughter, like they think people should be. They ignore the fact that she has killed, dressed and then cooked animals herself. If anything, her choice of setting was her own nice "I'm not going to play be your rules" message to the MSM. Good for her!

520 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:33pm

re: #509 itellu3times

So far this thread has made light of both trolls and flatlanders and this lower peninsulan is not amused.

521 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:38pm

re: #493 Dar ul Harb
I know we can get a little wrapped up in the controversy discussion. So putting that aside, yes, there is a lot of science in biology other than evolution. But evolution is one of those pivotal concepts that one needs to learn at the introductory stages of biology.

522 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:38pm

re: #503 favorednation

I've still got 4/5 of a bottle :) and some sprite; of course.

Sprite? With BOURBON?

That's almost as bad as the woman who useta' order Diet Coke and Maker's Mark.

523 Last Mohican  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:43pm

re: #509 itellu3times

Needless you say, you

would

have made my night, if Steffan had not just done so already. Still, you have earned well earned my karmic upding.

524 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:47pm

re: #492 Dan G.

Once the conversation began to discuss 2D worlds, then it crossed the line from pure math to application. I'm versed in linear algebra and so I know at least an entry level of the "pure" side of dimensionality and bases. But I'm also a scientist/engineer and therefore cringe when I hear people speaking about dimensions as though they are magical.

Kind of like the idea that "time" is a fourth dimension. Never understood why it's called that in physics--except for the Math working out that way.

525 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:48:47pm

re: #483 rawmuse

By the way, a high school friend has tracked don the double album our high school band recorded.

/hopefully, I'll has an answer to the 18/8 Idea song soon

526 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:49:02pm

re: #489 legalpad

"THE" is the source of the problem I have with these types of discussions. "THE Nth Dimension" is reification and what's worse, its an arbitrary assertion, not science. Any property which is mutually exclusive of others is a dimension (i.e. time, location, energy content, color, spins, mass, etc...)

527 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:49:38pm

re: #514 pingjockey

Yes, and I gave him a WHACK and so did just about everybody else.

Well, kisses to all of you!

528 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:14pm

re: #515 outsidephilly

wonder if January 20th will be cold . . . , or snowy.

I'm thinking of spending the day in bed, with the covers pulled over my head.

529 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:21pm

re: #513 Noam Sayin'

6 parts to 1part sprite and 3 ice cubes. :)

530 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:30pm

re: #502 Lynn B.

Guilty as charged.

/are we fighting about something? I try to aim down-dings at posts, not posters (with rare exceptions, of which you are not one). I expect others to do the same, to me, to anyone.

It's okay. Someone else here thought you were a scientist. I just wanted to settle the question.

As to your intentions toward me, I wouldn't trust you in a dark alley.

531 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:35pm

re: #526 Dan G.

OK, I have to ask: Does time have a direction?

532 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:38pm

re: #527 MandyManners

Shucks ma'am. Tweren't nothin' Jest a little varmint swattin'.

533 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:39pm

re: #493 Dar ul Harb

I'm just questioning whether teaching more than a bare mention of evolution, or any evolution at all, is a good use of the time in high school science class

As someone who was taught next to nothing about evolution in HS, I have to disagree. I loved biology- I had a great teacher. I don't know why he didn't get into evolution with us. Perhaps he was a creationist, perhaps he just didn't feel comfortable with the subject- I don't know. But what I do know now is that it limited my knowledge, and that is not something we should do to American students. This is the greatest country in the world- our children deserve an education that both reflects and propagates this.

534 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:44pm

Actually, to be technical about it, a point does have one dimension - duration. An instantaneous point could not exist. For the same reason, a line has two dimentions, a plane three, a cube four, and a tesseract five. We cannot forget the temporality in spatiotemporality.

535 fiat_lux  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:56pm

re: #418 MandyManners

Mandy,
I wrestled my computer to the ground and showed it who is the boss. I am now responsible for whatever appears under my pseudonym.

536 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:50:56pm

re: #516 Hobbes

It's cold here in Illinois too. Either the teens or single digits. Second night in a row. No snow though. Where's Al Gore when you need him? Ha.

He's probably at home with the thermostat cranked to 82.

537 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:51:27pm

re: #328 Spare O'Lake

I respect your need to believe in a supreme being as the programmer.
Just keep your religious views out of the science classroom and respect others' right to learn science without religious harassment.

You are the one mentioning a supreme being, I asked a question at the end of what I considered to be an analysis maybe not reasoned as well as others could, but logical nevertheless. If you have something to contribute I would love to hear it, but your statement does not address the point made. It just mirrors your inclination.

538 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:51:35pm

Good for you; just keep an eye on that computer.
re: #535 fiat_lux

539 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:51:38pm

re: #451 Moe Katz
Evening Moe - how are you tonight?

540 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:01pm

re: #522 MandyManners

I like Wisers as well .

541 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:06pm

re: #534 Salamantis

Are you drinking?

542 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:21pm

re: #521 Haverwilde

I know we can get a little wrapped up in the controversy discussion. So putting that aside, yes, there is a lot of science in biology other than evolution. But evolution is one of those pivotal concepts that one needs to learn at the introductory stages of biology.

Like number theory is for math?

/

(Man, what were those "new math" people thinking? Here kid, here's your Venn diagram. Trust me, it'll all make sense later.)

543 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:23pm

re: #531 Dianna

OK, I have to ask: Does time have a direction?

Sure. You can have negative time and positive time. Particle physics has this weird stuff where it looks like time can go backwards in some interactions.

544 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:25pm

re: #536 MandyManners
You wait. If the 'rotund one' shows up at the inagural. it'll be 20 below zero and a blizzard will blow in!

545 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:28pm

re: #518 MandyManners

(((Noam)))

Thanks, Mandy.

You know... Big hugs like that usually come with a kiss on the cheek.

Just sayin...

*skuff floor with toe*

546 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:29pm

re: #536 MandyManners

He's probably at home with the thermostat cranked to 82.

which home?
Or are all of his homes cranked to 82?

547 legalpad  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:50pm

re: #526 Dan G.

Yeah, I think people do not look at dimensions as Physics would, but as science fiction presents it to them.

548 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:52:51pm

re: #504 Dan G.

Ah... paved climbing. I was imagining that you're scaling a precipice.

Naw, it is wimp stuff, but it is a relentless ascent. I have done some real climbing in the Sierras, and oddly enough some of the toughest climbing I have ever done was on the Big Island, the descent to the Capt. Cook monument, and the return climb, is very tough. Next time we went there, it was by kayak.

549 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:05pm

re: #530 Moe Katz

As to your intentions toward me, I wouldn't trust you in a dark alley.

Eep!

550 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:11pm

re: #531 Dianna

In and of itself; no. :) It might be orthogonal; though. LOL

551 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:13pm

re: #522 MandyManners

Sprite? With BOURBON?

That's almost as bad as the woman who useta' order Diet Coke and Maker's Mark.

Try Southern Comfort and Squirt. That was the only stuff available in any quantity at the Navy Package Store at NAS Adak during two consecutive winters in the mid 1980's. The Squirt sourness smoothed out the cloying sweetness of the SC.

Called it Diseased Horse Piss. Drank many a fifth and 2 liter those two winters. ;)

552 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:16pm

re: #528 MandyManners

I'm thinking of spending the day in bed, with the covers pulled over my head.

I'm with ya on that . . . !
I used to get so excited for the newly elected President - I couldn't wait to see all that pomp and ceremony on TV . . . , not this time!

553 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:18pm

re: #453 little boomer
Well November USED to be Autumn in fact down South, now we just started Winter early!
Bet y'all are warmer than we are!
Climate Change!
/

554 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:27pm

re: #526 Dan G.

"THE" is the source of the problem I have with these types of discussions. "THE Nth Dimension" is reification and what's worse, its an arbitrary assertion, not science. Any property which is mutually exclusive of others is a dimension (i.e. time, location, energy content, color, spins, mass, etc...)

Spoken like a true engineer. I knew I smelled something funny in here...

/standing joke where I work, we always rib the engineers.

555 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:40pm

re: #507 OldLineTexan

Speaking about my behavior in general. The "trigger" in this thread was the talk of 2D worlds as published in S.A. This same idea is passed off as a story of Mr. A. Square meets Mr. A Cube. The idea that a 2D entity could communication (audibly, physically, any-lly) is non-sense. What typically happens, conceptually, is that people imagine a piece of paper meeting a solid cube block. But the paper isn't 2D, just verrry thin, so it has a surface in which it can communicate with the block. At any rate, I have no problem with pure mathematicians nor with the general abstraction of multiple dimensions, its just the predication of non-sense into the natural world that gets me bugged.

556 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:43pm

When you think about it, the whole idea of going to the gym is pointless and horrible for the environment. You get in your car and drive however many miles to the gym burning gas, tires, oil the whole way. You step into a climate controlled, lighted, powered building full of machines and TVs that consume electricity. Many of the machines were made in other countries using non recyclable materials before being put on a fuel guzzling ship and brought across the ocean where they were trucked across the country in an 8 mpg diesel semi. And of course, you pay money to use the gym to work out.

To make the point to my wife, I would always wait until she drove to the gym to work out. Then I would run the three miles to the gym, wave at her through the window as she ran on the treadmill, then run home. Workout outside. Its 100% free and better for the environment.

Of course you'll never hear a latte guzzling, Volvo driving hippie with a "Save the Earth" bumper sticker ever say that.

557 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:44pm

All right. It's been real and fun. Sometimes real fun! See y'all tomorrow.

558 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:53:54pm

re: #530 Moe Katz

It's okay. Someone else here thought you were a scientist. I just wanted to settle the question.

As to your intentions toward me, I wouldn't trust you in a dark alley.

Scientist? Me? No way!

Fortunately, the chances of us meeting in a dark alley are slim to none. And this place ... is really well lit. :)

559 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:09pm

Here's my query oh riddle me ree.

Is 0.999999.. repeating for infinity the same exact number as 1.0 ?

waiting...

560 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:13pm

re: #517 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wasn't criticizing you ;).

561 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:19pm

re: #529 favorednation

6 parts to 1part sprite and 3 ice cubes. :)

Yeesh!

A proper bourbon drink is mixed with ice, and time:

Fill a tumbler with ice.
Wait ten minutes.
Swish glass.
Add firearms to taste.

562 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:28pm

re: #534 Salamantis

Actually, to be technical about it, a point does have one dimension - duration. An instantaneous point could not exist. For the same reason, a line has two dimentions, a plane three, a cube four, and a tesseract five. We cannot forget the temporality in spatiotemporality.

Aha, but can a point exist with so few dimensions, without there being so many more dimensions so that you can exist outside of it and observe?

563 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:38pm

re: #454 pingjockey
Well glad you're getting a fast start, but I asked what's it like up by you - meaning how cold(warm) is it?! LOL!

564 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:41pm

re: #493 Dar ul Harb

Getting back on topic (unless we're jus' drankin here)...

re: #201 Haverwilde

I'm not arguing for "teaching the controversy," because there is no serious scientific controversy. I'm just questioning whether teaching more than a bare mention of evolution, or any evolution at all, is a good use of the time in high school science class, when there's a lot more of biology that has deeper policy implications, and more practical benefit, that should be taught.

Teach the foundations and the evidence in high school, and the higher level theory in college.

When I was in high school, one of the major perks was taking a field trip to a natural history museum. When you walk in the door and suddenly find yourself in a rotunda with a humongous T. Rex skeleton looming over you, you do tend to pay a bit more attention to what the teacher is saying.

There are some animals that likely won't evolve any further. Sharks are one group. Echinoderms such as starfish are another -- they still have the ability, which we don't, of growing back pieces that are lopped off. You can take one starfish leg and grow a whole new starfish from it, IIRC.

Cockroaches are yet another -- Cecil Adams once opined that they'd still be here after the rest of life on Earth is gone, either through natural disaster or nuclear misadventure.

/And then, of course, are the moonbats...

565 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:52pm

re: #555 Dan G.

Thanks, I thought I had missed out on something.

566 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:54:57pm

G'night.
re: #557 pingjockey

567 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:00pm

re: #534 Salamantis

Actually, to be technical about it, a point does have one dimension - duration. An instantaneous point could not exist. For the same reason, a line has two dimentions, a plane three, a cube four, and a tesseract five. We cannot forget the temporality in spatiotemporality.

I wasn't gonna go there...I stayed pure mathematics and didn't mix physics deliberately. ;)

568 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:05pm

re: #531 Dianna

Time is independent of direction, that is why it can be called a dimension. What is the direction of mass? Of color? ;)

569 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:12pm

re: #539 realwest

Evening Moe - how are you tonight?

Howdy, Real,

Pretty good but cold. It's down to 17 in Quebec City and I was trying to economize on heat. Now the wife's mad at me too.

How are you doing tonight?

570 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:21pm

re: #532 pingjockey

Shucks ma'am. Tweren't nothin' Jest a little varmint swattin'.

LOL!

571 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:23pm

re: #559 Mich-again

No.

572 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:35pm

re: #457 FurryOldGuyJeans
Evenin' - uh, what spaced out dude?!

573 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:43pm

re: #458 realwest

LOL! Then don't set the bottle down, use your other hand to post!

Thank you! All these other fools around me have been telling me to put down the bottle for years. Now I can tell them a very wise man has told me not to set the bottle down.

574 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:45pm

re: #556 logboy

When you think about it, the whole idea of going to the gym is pointless and horrible for the environment. You get in your car and drive however many miles to the gym burning gas, tires, oil the whole way. You step into a climate controlled, lighted, powered building full of machines and TVs that consume electricity. Many of the machines were made in other countries using non recyclable materials before being put on a fuel guzzling ship and brought across the ocean where they were trucked across the country in an 8 mpg diesel semi. And of course, you pay money to use the gym to work out.

To make the point to my wife, I would always wait until she drove to the gym to work out. Then I would run the three miles to the gym, wave at her through the window as she ran on the treadmill, then run home. Workout outside. Its 100% free and better for the environment.

Of course you'll never hear a latte guzzling, Volvo driving hippie with a "Save the Earth" bumper sticker ever say that.

You sound like my husband.
You also try to make a point to your wife like my husband does LOL.
Does it work?
Have you learned yet it won't?

575 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:46pm

re: #543 BryanS

Sure. You can have negative time and positive time. Particle physics has this weird stuff where it looks like time can go backwards in some interactions.

Ah!

If it only worked on the macro level!

The song "I wanna go Back" would work, and I could actually admit to liking it.

576 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:48pm

re: #535 fiat_lux

Mandy,
I wrestled my computer to the ground and showed it who is the boss. I am now responsible for whatever appears under my pseudonym.

Did you make it holler "uncle"?

577 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:54pm

re: #557 pingjockey

All right. It's been real and fun. Sometimes real fun! See y'all tomorrow.

see ya!

578 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:55:55pm

re: #559 Mich-again

Here's my query oh riddle me ree.

Is 0.999999.. repeating for infinity the same exact number as 1.0 ?

waiting...

No

579 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:56:09pm

re: #540 favorednation

I like Wisers as well .

Huh?

580 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:56:22pm

re: #560 Dan G.

Wasn't criticizing you ;).

I knew you were...just 'splainin' my POV is all ;)

581 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:56:33pm

re: #556 logboy

That is precisely what I have been thinking lately. I started doing it when gas was around 4 bucks. But the main thing is the weather has been so darned nice here of late it is like a sin to be inside.

582 docjohn52  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:56:34pm

"Time" is the fourth dimension, and speaking of time...

It's about time I found the door open, thanks so much... I've been trying to get on for months, love the posts though!

583 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:56:50pm

re: #559 Mich-again

yes--for all practical purposes.

584 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:56:53pm

re: #544 pingjockey

You wait. If the 'rotund one' shows up at the inagural. it'll be 20 below zero and a blizzard will blow in!

Well, he's so big that he'll be too hot for the snow to stick to him.

585 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:06pm

re: #580 FurryOldGuyJeans

I knew you were...just 'splainin' my POV is all ;)

WEREN'T! WEREN'T!

*Sigh* PIMF!

586 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:13pm

2 wrong answers so far... Any more?

587 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:14pm

re: #545 Noam Sayin'

Thanks, Mandy.

You know... Big hugs like that usually come with a kiss on the cheek.

Just sayin...

*skuff floor with toe*

*smooch*

588 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:29pm

re: #559 Mich-again

Here's my query oh riddle me ree.

Is 0.999999.. repeating for infinity the same exact number as 1.0 ?

waiting...

There are several answers:

Mathematical: No.
Scientific: Depends on whether we are counting parsecs or peanuts.
Engineering: More than three significant figures behind the decimal is out of your budget.

589 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:31pm

re: #528 MandyManners

I'm thinking of spending the day in bed, with the covers pulled over my head.

Maybe I'll try and find that Rev. Wright DVD and just keep playing it over and over, while I read Bill Ayers book. Now that's religion!

590 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:31pm

re: #563 realwest
Ah, low 30s highs low 40s. snow above 4000feet. Standard late fall weather. If it doesn't rain in the afternoon I may take the Harley out!

591 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:43pm

re: #471 pingjockey
Who did? Damn I hate getting here so late! Who got deleted and how come?

592 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:45pm

re: #546 reine.de.tout

which home?
Or are all of his homes cranked to 82?

He has more than two--D.C. and the Nashville area?

593 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:52pm

re: #495 Mich-again

"Impulse" sort of infers a reaction to a stimulus. But instincts are more than that. A salmon knows when, where and how to fight the way upstream to spawn. I am curious just how the chemistry works that behavior instructions get passed to the offspring. Even the simplest life form is more complicated than the most advanced human machine.

Actually, the reaction to a stimulus is known as a 'response.' Salmon swim upstream when they mature (and a different batch mature each year, during the same season, so there are always spawning partners), and they swim back to where they themselves were spawned; in other words, they've been there before. I imagine they find it again by some sort of geomagnetic mapping, kinda like migrating birds do.

594 itellu3times  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:57:52pm

re: #402 fiat_lux

Hi all,
This is my initial post. A piece of shell is still on this hatch-lings back and I pray my computer doesn't type anything stupid.

Hi fiat, I like your nic, shine on!

595 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:58:22pm

re: #559 Mich-again

Not "exactly" :)

596 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:58:23pm

May I ask what the point of this is?

re: #586 Mich-again

597 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:58:26pm

1/3 = 0.3333...
2/3 = 0.6666..
3/3 = 0.9999..
3/3 = 1

598 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:58:29pm

re: #551 FurryOldGuyJeans

Try Southern Comfort and Squirt. That was the only stuff available in any quantity at the Navy Package Store at NAS Adak during two consecutive winters in the mid 1980's. The Squirt sourness smoothed out the cloying sweetness of the SC.

Called it Diseased Horse Piss. Drank many a fifth and 2 liter those two winters. ;)

I might have to abstain.

599 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:58:49pm

re: #574 reine.de.tout

You sound like my husband.
You also try to make a point to your wife like my husband does LOL.
Does it work?
Have you learned yet it won't?

Yes I have. But I do it anyway. Its entertaining.

600 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:58:56pm

re: #572 realwest

Evenin' - uh, what spaced out dude?!

Some jerk with the nom de plume of spacejesus. Got excessively rude and made a comment about Mandy's mother at comment #208.

601 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:02pm

re: #564 Steffan

/And then, of course, are the moonbats...

And don't forget the Democrats, they haven't evolved since the New Deal.

(Though they have Changed some superficial characteristics.)

602 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:17pm

re: #588 OldLineTexan

I like your answer.

603 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:17pm

re: #552 outsidephilly

I'm with ya on that . . . !
I used to get so excited for the newly elected President - I couldn't wait to see all that pomp and ceremony on TV . . . , not this time!

For the first time in her memory, my mother is not gonna' watch the innaguration.

604 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:24pm

re: #592 MandyManners

He has more than two--D.C. and the Nashville area?

I think the 2.
To my one.
No problem for me, but seein' as how he's all worried about the environment . . .

605 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:26pm

re: #596 LilyGecko

We are talking about infinitesimal things like points.

606 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:26pm

re: #597 Mich-again

Still no.

607 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:31pm

re: #536 MandyManners

He's probably at home with the thermostat cranked to 82.

Ya, you wouldn't want to have to snuggle up with Tipper.

608 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 8:59:38pm

re: #572 realwest

Evenin' - uh, what spaced out dude?!

Some Norwegian that calls hisself SpaceJesus.

/Nick Cage on Saturday Night Live reference

609 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:04pm

re: #603 MandyManners

For the first time in her memory, my mother is not gonna' watch the innaguration.

And how is your mom feeling these days?

610 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:12pm

re: #598 MandyManners

I might have to abstain.

Wise decision ;)

611 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:17pm

re: #600 FurryOldGuyJeans

Some jerk with the nom de plume of spacejesus. Got excessively rude and made a comment about Mandy's mother at comment #208.

I don't really remember Spacejesus from any other threads.

612 Outrider  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:19pm

OT under more bizarre news

Troubled pop star Michael Jackson has converted to Islam and changed his name to Mikaeel.

Jackson, 50, was dressed in the Islamic garb as he pledged his allegiance to the Koran at a friend's house in Los Angeles. He sat on the floor as an Imam was called to officiate the ceremony.

Jackson, who was raised a Jehovah's Witness, decided to convert after discussing religion with a music producer and songwriter on his new album - both of them converts to Islam.

"They began talking to him about their beliefs and how they thought they had become better people after they converted. Michael soon began warming to the idea. An Imam was summoned, and Michael went through the shahada, which is the Muslim declaration of belief," a source was quoted as saying.

Mikaeel is the name of one of Allah's angels.

613 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:27pm

Ah. Thank you for that enlightenment.
re: #605 Mich-again

614 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:44pm

re: #568 Dan G.

Sweetie, I'm not that drunk!

Better yet, I'm not a physicist, or a quantum mechanic. I'm certainly not a poet, and those are the only three cases in which a sober person makes sense of those questions.

615 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:00:46pm

re: #589 Hobbes

Maybe I'll try and find that Rev. Wright DVD and just keep playing it over and over, while I read Bill Ayers book. Now that's religion!

Why don't you just get a hammer and hit your toes repeatedly?

616 pingjockey  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:01:00pm

re: #591 realwest
Damn, B52 asshat insulted Catholics and asshat #2 spacejesus insulted MM and her mom. Very disrespectful and not funny.
Now folks, I really got to go. My eye is giving me fits. A sty inside the eyelid! Annoying as hell. See you fine folks tomorrow. Nite Lily.

617 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:01:10pm

Okay, I see it's time for this again.

/Bomb 20

618 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:01:16pm

re: #581 rawmuse

That is precisely what I have been thinking lately. I started doing it when gas was around 4 bucks. But the main thing is the weather has been so darned nice here of late it is like a sin to be inside.


There are only two situations where I would rather workout inside. In Iraq when it was 130 outside, or here in Wisconsin when its -20. Other than that I hate working out inside.

619 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:01:22pm

re: #616 pingjockey

Damn, B52 asshat insulted Catholics and asshat #2 spacejesus insulted MM and her mom. Very disrespectful and not funny.
Now folks, I really got to go. My eye is giving me fits. A sty inside the eyelid! Annoying as hell. See you fine folks tomorrow. Nite Lily.

g'nite . . .

620 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:02:16pm

re: #604 reine.de.tout

I think the 2.
To my one.
No problem for me, but seein' as how he's all worried about the environment . . .

I understand that our officials might need a house/apartment while in office.

621 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:02:22pm

re: #508 reine.de.tout

My Dad zt"l was a butcher, and every year, before Thanksgiving, when I was a kid, he would take me to Faneuil Hall Market, in Boston, where he would hold me on his shoulders, and pick the turkeys he wanted...now the actual meats, poultry, etc., and other foodstuffs have been moved years ago to another part of Boston, to a modern market, and every year, at this time, I get nostalgic. The turkeys were so noisy, but I was never afraid...I did not see them lose their heads, though.

That video was actually funny, and turning it on Gov. Palin is venal...but what else can we expect from the Demonrats?

622 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:02:37pm

re: #593 Salamantis

they've been there before. I imagine they find it again by some sort of geomagnetic mapping, kinda like migrating birds do.

I wonder what would happen to a salmon that was relocated to a place faraway. Would they die trying to find their own stream to swim up or would they be happy finding one kind of like it.

623 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:02:44pm

re: #614 Dianna

;)

624 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:01pm

re: #611 Moe Katz

I don't really remember Spacejesus from any other threads.

Does this 'splain it?

Karma: -42
Registered since: Oct 15, 2007 at 4:51 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 86

625 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:02pm

re: #607 Hobbes

Ya, you wouldn't want to have to snuggle up with Tipper.

I always thought she was kinda' cute, in a matronly Suzie Sorority way.

626 OldLineTexan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:13pm

re: #602 Sharmuta

I like your answer.

Thanks. I have been asked to explain that before, oddly enough.

627 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:17pm

re: #493 Dar ul Harb
OK, I'll bite I guess Dar - when last I was in High School (ya know, when we used paper and pencil and had to learn long division and stuff) we had four years of science classes - why is teaching evolution so out of bounds in say one semester of one year?!

628 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:22pm

re: #609 outsidephilly

And how is your mom feeling these days?

She's still pissed off.

629 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:33pm

re: #606 Noam Sayin'

Still no.

Still yes. That is the essence of math. The concept of the limit. It is why your 12 ounce beer can is twice as tall as it is round.

630 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:03:34pm

re: #612 Outrider

Troubled pop star Michael Jackson has converted to Islam and changed his name to Mikaeel.

/as long as it keeps him from recording more music

631 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:04:01pm

re: #614 Dianna

Sweetie, I'm not that drunk!

Better yet, I'm not a physicist, or a quantum mechanic. I'm certainly not a poet, and those are the only three cases in which a sober person makes sense of those questions.

Durn, my quantum's been making funny noises lately and I was looking for a quantum mechanic to take a look at it.

632 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:04:07pm

re: #628 MandyManners

She's still pissed off.

sorry to hear that; was it something I said?

633 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:04:14pm

re: #610 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wise decision ;)

Ever since I started drinking Makers, and then Basil Hayden's, I've refused to mix it.

634 Outrider  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:04:20pm

re: #630 Killian Bundy

/as long as it keeps him from recording more music

;-)>

635 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:04:58pm

re: #495 Mich-again
Hi Mich! uh,

A salmon knows when, where and how to fight the way upstream to spawn. I am curious just how the chemistry works that behavior instructions get passed to the offspring. Even the simplest life form is more complicated than the most advanced human machine.

I'm afraid I don't understand that (if it goes to a conversation too far back, don't sweat answering it!).

636 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:05pm

re: #624 FurryOldGuyJeans

Does this 'splain it?

Karma: -42
Registered since: Oct 15, 2007 at 4:51 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 86

Mister Congeniality.

637 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:17pm

re: #632 outsidephilly

sorry to hear that; was it something I said?

The election. She's a Yellow-Dog Democrat but, she voted Republican.

638 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:21pm

re: #556 logboy

When you think about it, the whole idea of going to the gym is pointless and horrible for the environment. You get in your car and drive however many miles to the gym burning gas, tires, oil the whole way. You step into a climate controlled, lighted, powered building full of machines and TVs that consume electricity. Many of the machines were made in other countries using non recyclable materials before being put on a fuel guzzling ship and brought across the ocean where they were trucked across the country in an 8 mpg diesel semi. And of course, you pay money to use the gym to work out.

To make the point to my wife, I would always wait until she drove to the gym to work out. Then I would run the three miles to the gym, wave at her through the window as she ran on the treadmill, then run home. Workout outside. Its 100% free and better for the environment.

Of course you'll never hear a latte guzzling, Volvo driving hippie with a "Save the Earth" bumper sticker ever say that.


And another thing - why do people who drive to the gym always have to park close to the front door?

639 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:29pm

re: #597 Mich-again

1/3 = 0.3333...
2/3 = 0.6666..
3/3 = 0.9999..
3/3 = 1

Yeah, but how much is 25%?

640 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:43pm

re: #633 MandyManners

Ever since I started drinking Makers, and then Basil Hayden's, I've refused to mix it.

I am very ecumenical when it comes to the booze (and mix-ins) that gets me drunk. ;)

641 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:46pm

How does the karma number work?

642 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:05:55pm

re: #612 Outrider

They can have him. Ha.

643 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:06:05pm

re: #515 outsidephilly

wonder if January 20th will be cold . . . , or snowy.

Both, I hope. I will be spending my birthday hiding under the bed, with no radio, TV or computer. This is the first inauguration in my life that I dread.

Feh. /Is there a song called 'Unhappy birthday to me'?

644 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:06:07pm

re: #562 itellu3times

Aha, but can a point exist with so few dimensions, without there being so many more dimensions so that you can exist outside of it and observe?

To observe a point requires a line between observer and observed.

645 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:06:28pm

re: #498 jaunte
I'm fucking COLD! No 401-k's nor much savings so I'm even cool on that end.
But other than COLD I'm doing fine, thanks for asking!

646 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:06:41pm

re: #641 jaunte

How does the karma number work?

/net dings

647 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:06:48pm

re: #476 Sharmuta

What?

Reproduction does not have anything to do with the self-preservation of the individual animal, and all to do with the survival of the species.

648 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:07:04pm

re: #640 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am very ecumenical when it comes to the booze (and mix-ins) that gets me drunk. ;)

Not me. I like something, I stick to it.

649 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:07:15pm

re: #622 Mich-again

I wonder what would happen to a salmon that was relocated to a place faraway. Would they die trying to find their own stream to swim up or would they be happy finding one kind of like it.

Actually, the guys tagging and counting salmon near here find lots of them from other streams. For several years they would cut off the heads and send them to the lab to determine their stream of origin. But several of us objected, and they quit, doing it. Instead they would pick them up after spawning and send the heads in. Now that is probably more data then you wanted, but you asked.

650 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:07:17pm

re: #646 Killian Bundy

Ah, I see. Thanks.

651 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:07:32pm

re: #621 NY Nana

My Dad zt"l was a butcher, and every year, before Thanksgiving, when I was a kid, he would take me to Faneuil Hall Market, in Boston, where he would hold me on his shoulders, and pick the turkeys he wanted...now the actual meats, poultry, etc., and other foodstuffs have been moved years ago to another part of Boston, to a modern market, and every year, at this time, I get nostalgic. The turkeys were so noisy, but I was never afraid...I did not see them lose their heads, though.

That video was actually funny, and turning it on Gov. Palin is venal...but what else can we expect from the Demonrats?

I'm not sure I could actually do the killing, but I am not squeamish about how our food gets to us.

I also found the video amusing, particularly the guy in the back who kept casually looking over at Palin while doing his job . . . I don't know, I just have a soft spot for the unsophisticated folks, who pretty much take care of the rest of us, that the east coast/west coast elites have such loathing for.

652 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:07:44pm

re: #500 Noam Sayin'
Or worse than you remembered! LOL! There must be some liquor store open somewhere's around ya - I'll hold your seat for you if you'd like!

653 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:07:59pm

Is there any way I can see what my karma is?

re: #646 Killian Bundy

654 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:07pm

re: #645 realwest

I'm glad to hear you're not troubled by teeth, at least.

655 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:35pm

re: #531 Dianna

OK, I have to ask: Does time have a direction?

Mostly away, especially when a deadline is looming.

Maybe we should ask Sailor Pluto or Doctor Who.

656 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:36pm

re: #575 Dianna

Ah!

If it only worked on the macro level!

The song "I wanna go Back" would work, and I could actually admit to liking it.

All you need is a flux capacitor, my friend.

657 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:43pm

re: #629 Mich-again

Still yes. That is the essence of math. The concept of the limit. It is why your 12 ounce beer can is twice as tall as it is round.

Now you're just f*ckin' with me.

;)

658 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:49pm

re: #643 NY Nana

Both, I hope. I will be spending my birthday hiding under the bed, with no radio, TV or computer. This is the first inauguration in my life that I dread.

Feh. /Is there a song called 'Unhappy birthday to me'?

Ah, Nana - go out and do something fun. I'm going fishing.

659 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:51pm

re: #647 Emphasis

Reproduction does not have anything to do with the self-preservation of the individual animal, and all to do with the survival of the species.

Ah.

But, in order to get an intelligent creature to do it, you have to make it feel really, really good.

Otherwise, why do human females have orgasms?

660 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:08:51pm

re: #639 Thanos

Yer killing me! Where dd you find that.

661 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:09:57pm

re: #625 MandyManners

I always thought she was kinda' cute, in a matronly Suzie Sorority way.

Last time I saw her she was at the Academy Awards with Al and she wasn't looking very happy. But, she might not have known the cameras were on
her.

662 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:10:01pm

re: #652 realwest

Or worse than you remembered! LOL! There must be some liquor store open somewhere's around ya - I'll hold your seat for you if you'd like!

They close at 10 in Minnesota.

I'm not driving to Wisconsin this late at night just for booze.

Going to bed soon, anyway. I'm tired.

663 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:10:18pm

Sound plan.

re: #658 Bobibutu

664 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:10:36pm

re: #637 MandyManners

The election. She's a Yellow-Dog Democrat but, she voted Republican.


Its three weeks since the election and I've yet to come across a pumped up, pride filled conversation about this newly elected president. Seems people have a look of apathy about them that is a quite disheartening.

665 logboy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:10:48pm

Alright Lizards, deer season opens in 8 hours so I need to get some sleep. Wish me luck.

666 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:01pm

re: #621 NY Nana

My grandfather owned a small grocery, and my father had the job of picking out the neighborhood shoppers' live poultry selection (mostly chicken)
beheading, scalding, and plucking for the housewife's inspection. Many times they sent him back to get a different one. "It looked bigger walking around."

667 Aye Pod  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:01pm
That, of course, doesn’t help students. It only hurts them when it comes to learning accepted scientific theory. But that’s fine with board members, who are unconcerned about the detrimental effects of their policies.

Well, it's taken me over 3 years of prodding and debating on my part, but my ex from Virginia - victim of Jerry Falwells ridiculous 'Liberty University' - has finally gotten over the anti-evolution brainwashing she got there.

Which is cause for me tonight for a little celebration in the form of drink!

668 little boomer  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:16pm

re: #639 Thanos

Had to ding you up for that one!

669 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:22pm

re: #603 MandyManners

For the first time in her memory, my mother is not gonna' watch the innaguration.

Same here...at least since it has been televised. I still cannot quite believe that he won.

/Have they been putting something in the water?

670 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:25pm

re: #631 Moe Katz

Durn, my quantum's been making funny noises lately and I was looking for a quantum mechanic to take a look at it.

Heh - Quantum Mechanic was my handle back in the CB heydays of the 70s.

Ah - memories.

671 Dan G.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:29pm

re: #635 realwest

I'll venture a reasonable, but definitely not researched, hypothesis that it doesn't "just know it". There's likely an environmental queue. The sense best capable of reconciling all of the "when" and "where" is smell paired with some event that changes the presence/absence of an odorant in the water. For example, if a certain flower/plant releases pollen at the final destination (at the spawning grounds, or upstream of it), the odorant will flow down river, decreasing in concentration along the way. The decrease in concentration gives directionality in that if the "smell" diminishes then they're going in the wrong direction. I.E. could you smell your way to a barbecue? Any time of the day? I could!

672 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:30pm

re: #622 Mich-again

I wonder what would happen to a salmon that was relocated to a place faraway. Would they die trying to find their own stream to swim up or would they be happy finding one kind of like it.

Salmon Dance

673 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:33pm

re: #661 Hobbes

Last time I saw her she was at the Academy Awards with Al and she wasn't looking very happy. But, she might not have known the cameras were on
her.

It's got to be pretty awful, seeing your spouse of however many years being rewarded for being off his rocker. It makes the intervention much, much harder.

674 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:37pm

re: #653 LilyGecko

Is there any way I can see what my karma is?

/click your avatar

675 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:38pm

re: #516 Hobbes
Hey Hobbes - the only reason I can imagine anyone needing Al Gore would be someone cold enough to need the body warmth to actually sleep wi...never mind, I can't imagine why anyone would need Al Gore!

676 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:57pm

re: #657 Noam Sayin'

No! Really if you use calculus to minimize surface area with respect to volume for a cylinder then you end up with a beer can that is twice as tall as it is wide. That way you need the least amount of aluminum to make the cans. That is how math gets used in the real world.

677 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:11:57pm

re: #673 Dianna

It's got to be pretty awful, seeing your spouse of however many years being rewarded for being off his rocker. It makes the intervention much, much harder.

rofl
and hearted.

678 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:12:08pm

Hey - is there any way to see what my karma is at?

679 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:12:11pm

re: #643 NY Nana

Both, I hope. I will be spending my birthday hiding under the bed, with no radio, TV or computer. This is the first inauguration in my life that I dread.

Feh. /Is there a song called 'Unhappy birthday to me'?

I, too, was thinking about the lack luster appeal of that day.

680 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:12:20pm

re: #484 realwest

Huh?


Well in My experience fear is very much a performance enhancer - not for sex, but for damn near everything else!

Has always helped me to move faster

681 Outrider  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:12:48pm

re: #639 Thanos

Yeah, but how much is 25%?

I was looking at those 666 you had listed and thought of something I had read today.

The numbers 666 were the winning combination in an Illinois lottery the day after the election 2008.

Means nothing, merely amusing.

682 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:13:01pm

re: #670 Bobibutu

Heh - Quantum Mechanic was my handle back in the CB heydays of the 70s.

Ah - memories.

CB radio and 8-tracks, eh?

683 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:13:27pm

re: #677 reine.de.tout

Thanks.

684 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:13:34pm

re: #639 Thanos

That was pretty dang funny.

685 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:13:35pm

re: #682 Moe Katz

CB radio and 8-tracks, eh?

reel-to-reel

686 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:13:37pm

re: #647 Emphasis

We are mortal. Self-preservation is therefore limited. You can only do it for so long before the inevitable. In this sense, reproducing gives one an opportunity to preserve a bit of themselves into the future. That I am here is a testament to my ancestors. They live on in my blood.

687 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:09pm

re: #685 reine.de.tout

reel-to-reel

Ooh, you must have been rich.

688 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:10pm

re: #678 LilyGecko

Click your avatar, and prepare to be disappointed.

I have resolved not to check mine more than once a month.

689 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:13pm

re: #676 Mich-again

No! Really if you use calculus to minimize surface area with respect to volume for a cylinder then you end up with a beer can that is twice as tall as it is wide. That way you need the least amount of aluminum to make the cans. That is how math gets used in the real world.

Really?

Okay. Now, I'm just f*cking with you.

690 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:19pm

Deja Vu:
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
August 12, 1999

From Correspondent Brian Cabell

TOPEKA, Kansas (CNN) -- A decision this week by the Kansas Board of Education to delete the teaching of evolution from the state's science curriculum has angered the mainstream science community in the United States.

"This act ... took us back 100 years in science teaching and education," says Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "I hope the courts will be the one to find time to correct the decision."

The board's decision doesn't require the teaching of creationism, nor does it forbid the teaching of evolution. The specific curriculum is left to the local school boards -- and to the teachers who now find themselves with questions.

"Do we touch on those areas? What about students who do not want to hear this viewpoint?" says Tammy Stauber, an eighth-grade science teacher. "Should they be allowed to leave the classroom, or is it mandatory that they have to listen to the teacher?"

Other states, including Texas, California, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Nebraska and New Hampshire, have witnessed battles between evolutionists and creationists in the last several years.

But the Kansas decision seems to be a major victory for those who believe that the Bible's book of Genesis, not the theory of evolution, explains the origin of man.

"You can't apply the scientific method to evolution," says Gary Demar of the group American Vision. "It's never been observed. You can't repeat the experiment. And so what's being sold as science, in terms of evolution, really isn't science in terms of the way they define it."

If the decision stands, some Kansas students will continue to learn about evolution, while others may learn about creationism. But the courts could intervene and rule that the school board's decision violates the separation of church and state.

691 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:28pm

re: #684 Mich-again

That was pretty dang funny.

Yeah, I got it in email from my sis yesterday.

692 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:29pm

re: #534 Salamantis

We cannot forget the temporality in spatiotemporality.

Forget it? Hell I can't even pronounce it!

693 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:33pm

re: #678 LilyGecko

Click on your avatar. When I just checked you were 1.

694 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:46pm

re: #663 LilyGecko

Sound plan.

Thank you. Sturgeon fishing in the Sacramento Delta to be precise. My reservation has been made.

695 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:14:51pm

re: #687 Moe Katz

Ooh, you must have been rich.

naw, just knew people.

696 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:15:09pm

re: #688 Dianna

Thank you. Actually, I just joined, so no big disappointment. Thanks for helping out a hatchling. :)

697 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:15:15pm

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

Matter is built on flaky foundations. Physicists have now confirmed that the apparently substantial stuff is actually no more than fluctuations in the quantum vacuum.

The researchers simulated the frantic activity that goes on inside protons and neutrons. These particles provide almost all the mass of ordinary matter.

Each proton (or neutron) is made of three quarks - but the individual masses of these quarks only add up to about 1% of the proton's mass. So what accounts for the rest of it?

Theory says it is created by the force that binds quarks together, called the strong nuclear force. In quantum terms, the strong force is carried by a field of virtual particles called gluons, randomly popping into existence and disappearing again. The energy of these vacuum fluctuations has to be included in the total mass of the proton and neutron.

/does this mean we suck?

698 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:15:15pm

re: #675 realwest

Hey Hobbes - the only reason I can imagine anyone needing Al Gore would be someone cold enough to need the body warmth to actually sleep wi...never mind, I can't imagine why anyone would need Al Gore!

I'm glad you didn't finish that. The image would never leave.

699 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:15:21pm

re: #661 Hobbes

Last time I saw her she was at the Academy Awards with Al and she wasn't looking very happy. But, she might not have known the cameras were on
her.

I imagine living with him can be a strain.

700 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:15:46pm

re: #696 LilyGecko

Thank you. Actually, I just joined, so no big disappointment. Thanks for helping out a hatchling. :)

Any time.

701 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:16:06pm

re: #664 outsidephilly

Its three weeks since the election and I've yet to come across a pumped up, pride filled conversation about this newly elected president. Seems people have a look of apathy about them that is a quite disheartening.

I avoid people whom I think voted for him.

702 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:16:20pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

We are mortal. Self-preservation is therefore limited. You can only do it for so long before the inevitable. In this sense, reproducing gives one an opportunity to preserve a bit of themselves into the future. That I am here is a testament to my ancestors. They live on in my blood.

Well said, no one lives forever except through their kids and grand kids

703 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:16:38pm

re: #697 Killian Bundy

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

/does this mean we suck?

Is that a trick question?

/and if you got that, please forgive me.

704 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:16:46pm

re: #669 NY Nana

Same here...at least since it has been televised. I still cannot quite believe that he won.

/Have they been putting something in the water?

Valium?

705 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:16:58pm

re: #544 pingjockey
OMG! YOU owe me a new monitor! But I'll forgoe it if that really happens! LOL!

706 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:00pm

re: #688 Dianna

Click your avatar, and prepare to be disappointed.

I have resolved not to check mine more than once a month.

Now, Dianna, you have to remember that you had several years of posting where there was no possibility of earning karma because the ding system did not exist.

Newer lizards are at a decided advantage, ratio-wise.

707 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:04pm

I'm thinking Charles will do something 'special' for the lizard nation on that January day.
Hey, November 22nd is here - its VICTORY IN IRAQ day!

708 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:32pm

re: #533 Sharmuta

As someone who was taught next to nothing about evolution in HS, I have to disagree. I loved biology- I had a great teacher. I don't know why he didn't get into evolution with us. Perhaps he was a creationist, perhaps he just didn't feel comfortable with the subject- I don't know. But what I do know now is that it limited my knowledge, and that is not something we should do to American students. This is the greatest country in the world- our children deserve an education that both reflects and propagates this.

My policy argument here is, though (see? lawyer!), the purpose of your public high school education is presumably to have an educated electorate so they can make informed decisions on policy issues. When's the last time anything having to do with evolution had to be voted on, except when these blessed biblical literalists put it there?

Your slippery slope argument about history class is well taken, except that I don't support removing the essential factual underpinnings of the theory from the curriculum, and it's not appropriate, as I see it, to open up all (or really any of) the academic subjects for debate in high school. That's one of the things universities are supposed to be for.

709 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:37pm

re: #689 Noam Sayin'

Really?

Okay. Now, I'm just f*cking with you.

What? Did you actually think that Aussies know calculus?

Lookie here bruh.

710 Haverwilde  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:38pm

Well good night all. I can't believe I have done nothing this evening. You all are an addiction that I must watch closely.

711 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:50pm

re: #701 MandyManners

Someone I see every week approved of him. He's been rather insufferable about BO winning. I have to resist the urge to chew him out.

712 favorednation  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:54pm

re: #644 Salamantis

what about Heisenburg?

713 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:17:57pm

re: #559 Mich-again

Here's my query oh riddle me ree.

Is 0.999999.. repeating for infinity the same exact number as 1.0 ?

waiting...

If you go beyond ten decimal places, there's no practical difference.

Same exact? No, but there's no practical use to taking it to infinity. Beyond three or four places, most people won't be able to tell the difference.

It's kinda like pi, which has been calculated to more than one trillion decimal places.

... a value truncated to 11 decimal places is accurate enough to calculate the circumference of the earth with a precision of a millimeter...

714 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:18:10pm

re: #706 reine.de.tout

Now, Dianna, you have to remember that you had several years of posting where there was no possibility of earning karma because the ding system did not exist.

Newer lizards are at a decided advantage, ratio-wise.

Nah. I think it has more to do with my tendency to prefer blathering to posting links everyone's already seen.

715 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:18:55pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

We are mortal. Self-preservation is therefore limited. You can only do it for so long before the inevitable. In this sense, reproducing gives one an opportunity to preserve a bit of themselves into the future. That I am here is a testament to my ancestors. They live on in my blood.

We're all the latest link in a long chain of winners, who were all attractive enough to reproduce, and good enough to live long enough to be able to. Gotta do wonders for yer self-esteem to think of it that way.

716 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:12pm

re: #551 FurryOldGuyJeans
"Southern Comfort and Squirt" - ah geez, I'm getting really nausuous here. Just at the thought of the SC, hell the Sprite might even help with that!

717 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:14pm

re: #714 Dianna

Nah. I think it has more to do with my tendency to prefer blathering to posting links everyone's already seen.

Well, I enjoy your blatherings.
And it's way past my bedtime.
g'night

718 fiat_lux  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:14pm

re: #576 MandyManners

Actually, it seemed to like it, It kept saying "Johnny get angry, Johnny get mad..". Who Knew?

719 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:18pm

re: #676 Mich-again

No! Really if you use calculus to minimize surface area with respect to volume for a cylinder then you end up with a beer can that is twice as tall as it is wide. That way you need the least amount of aluminum to make the cans. That is how math gets used in the real world.

Now, if teaching real applications like this as an approach of education, instead of "new math", maybe our country wouldn't be so far behind in mathematics compared to other advanced economies.

720 Hobbes  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:19pm

re: #699 MandyManners

I imagine living with him can be a strain.

I wonder where he keeps ALL his awards? I know where I'd put them!

721 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:27pm

re: #682 Moe Katz

CB radio and 8-tracks, eh?

Never got into 8 track. But CB? - oh yeah. SSB 1KW - still got the mobile out in the garage somewhere.

I know - illegal as hell. But it was fun on the road.

722 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:30pm

re: #562 itellu3times

We can't all be Rod Serling. The act of observing affects what's observed.

723 ClosetConservative  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:53pm

Victory in Iraq day, folks! Party!

724 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:19:54pm

re: #701 MandyManners

I avoid people whom I think voted for him.

I am doing the exact same thing!

725 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:09pm

re: #711 LilyGecko

Interesting avatar you have. Very O'Keeffe. Welcome to LGF.

726 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:15pm

re: #715 Salamantis

High fives all around for we the living: the Champion Swimmers Club.

727 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:37pm

re: #717 reine.de.tout

Well, I enjoy your blatherings.
And it's way past my bedtime.
g'night

'Night, Reine.

728 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:38pm

re: #722 Steffan

We can't all be Rod Serling. The act of observing affects what's observed.

Quantum!

729 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:42pm

Evening, a cold 2° Below, in hand a looking at the buffet for any troll haunches being carved up.

730 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:44pm

re: #713 Steffan

Wrong. 0.999.. repeating for infinity is the exact same number as 1.0

This is like a litmus test for people who understand math.

731 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:20:59pm

re: #711 LilyGecko

Someone I see every week approved of him. He's been rather insufferable about BO winning. I have to resist the urge to chew him out.

Tell him, "just wait."

Then ask him if he knows how Obama first got elected (by removing all of his opponents from the ballot).

732 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:21:12pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout

I also found the video amusing, particularly the guy in the back who kept casually looking over at Palin while doing his job . . . I don't know, I just have a soft spot for the unsophisticated folks, who pretty much take care of the rest of us, that the east coast/west coast elites have such loathing for.

Same here. He was sweet...and I am not the least bit squeamish, as I used to love watching my Dad, as he was really a superb butcher, and I am a retired RN, so there is not very much that scares me...except for any bugs. I yell for NY Grampa to come to the rescue! He thinks it is hilarious. Oh, and I used to have him clip our 4 kids' finger and toenails when they were babies and toddlers..I was afraid I would hurt them.

I am so proud of my kids when I see them clip my grandkids' nails so beautifully!

I may live on the East Coast, but an elite I ain't.

733 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:21:13pm

re: #717 reine.de.tout

Night!

734 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:21:28pm

re: #697 Killian Bundy

Something like that - but only from time to time.

735 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:21:38pm

re: #711 LilyGecko

And... I'm giving you an up-ding, just to contribute to your Karma rating.

736 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:21:48pm

re: #717 reine.de.tout

Well, I enjoy your blatherings.
And it's way past my bedtime.
g'night

nighty, night, reine . . . , I'm gonna make like a tree and leave, also! Good night, y'all!

737 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:22:25pm

re: #659 Dianna

Ah.

But, in order to get an intelligent creature to do it, you have to make it feel really, really good.

Otherwise, why do human females have orgasms?

You won't find any argument from me on this :)

738 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:23:27pm

re: #627 realwest

OK, I'll bite I guess Dar - when last I was in High School (ya know, when we used paper and pencil and had to learn long division and stuff) we had four years of science classes - why is teaching evolution so out of bounds in say one semester of one year?!

Science is a lot bigger than when you (and even I) went to school, and the available hours in "science class" haven't increased. I generally favor labs for teaching science and, most critically, for teaching the scientific method.

Evolution is not well taught in a lab. But you can teach things like selection, and genetics (oh, and way cool, molecular genetics!), in a lab.

That's what'll get us more young scientists.

739 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:23:28pm

More Kansas. The first link was from 1999. Now from 2005. Please note that Kathleen Sebelius, decidedly unimpressive democrat, was elected governor of KS in 2006.

TOPEKA, Kan. - Risking the kind of nationwide ridicule it faced six years ago, the Kansas Board of Education approved new public-school science standards Tuesday that cast doubt on the theory of evolution.

The 6-4 vote was a victory for “intelligent design” advocates who helped draft the standards. Intelligent design holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power.

Critics of the new language charged that it was an attempt to inject God and creationism into public schools, in violation of the constitutional ban on state establishment of religion.

Tell me again that being associated with this crap doesn't hurt the GOP.

KS quite clearly demonstrates that it most certainly does.

740 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:23:28pm

re: #711 LilyGecko

Someone I see every week approved of him. He's been rather insufferable about BO winning. I have to resist the urge to chew him out.

Why resist?

741 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:23:31pm

re: #737 Emphasis

You won't find any argument from me on this :)

Good! I'd worry about your sanity, otherwise!

742 SpaceJesus  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:24:38pm
Nah, That spacejesus cretin.

you know, I really think you can get the same sentiment across by not resorting to petty name calling and vulgar language.

743 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:24:42pm

re: #709 Mich-again

I'd rather drink 20 oz. of Boddingtons.

;)

744 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:24:42pm

re: #612 Outrider

Bizarre, indeed.

Wasn't he hanging out with the NoI some years back? He might have converted then and just waited until now to announce it.

How the heck did he manage to live to 50?

745 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:24:45pm

re: #740 MandyManners

It would be wasted on him.

746 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:25:03pm

re: #712 favorednation

what about Heisenburg?

Heisenberg allows for a line of observation between observer and observed; it's just that the observed may move into a slightly different location and gain a slightly different momentum than before the observation transpires, the degrees of which are calculable by knowing the amplitude and frequency of the light used to effectuate the observation.

747 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:25:04pm

I'm gonna' grab Forsythe's The Fist of God and head to bed.

Pleasant dreams, Lizards!

748 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:25:08pm

re: #719 BryanS

Now, if teaching real applications like this as an approach of education, instead of "new math", maybe our country wouldn't be so far behind in mathematics compared to other advanced economies.

I think being good at math depends on being able to draw the problem.

749 outsidephilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:00pm

re: #747 MandyManners

I'm gonna' grab Forsythe's The Fist of God and head to bed.

Pleasant dreams, Lizards!

g'night, Mandy ~ see ya tomorrow!

750 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:07pm

re: #569 Moe Katz
I'm cold and don't understand A LOT of what folks are saying out here, but other than that I'm fine, thanks!

751 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:15pm

re: #670 Bobibutu

Very cool handle..

752 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:16pm

re: #747 MandyManners

I'm gonna' grab Forsythe's The Fist of God and head to bed.

Pleasant dreams, Lizards!

Bye Mandy.

753 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:30pm

Oh boy, the human weasel Lanny Davis just said that Hillary Clinton will be the best Secretary of State in the history of this country.

/the only thing "good" about it is that it keeps her off the Supreme Court and out of contention for 2012

754 Emphasis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:49pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

We are mortal. Self-preservation is therefore limited. You can only do it for so long before the inevitable. In this sense, reproducing gives one an opportunity to preserve a bit of themselves into the future. That I am here is a testament to my ancestors. They live on in my blood.

Though I understand your comment, you must agree that this does not apply to animal behavior

755 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:26:52pm

re: #679 outsidephilly

I, too, was thinking about the lack luster appeal of that day.

You are being too kind. There is a call for so many tickets in NY that Sen. Chuckie Cheese Schumer has a lottery for his share..no money involved. My husband signed up, and if he 'wins'? 2 less idiots going to the B-grade movie, as the tickets will mysteriously get lost...

/Hmm, think they would sell on E-Bay on 21 January?

756 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:27:31pm

re: #754 Emphasis

Though I understand your comment, you must agree that this does not apply to animal behavior

Yes it does. We are animals.

757 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:27:35pm

re: #753 Killian Bundy

Oh boy, the human weasel Lanny Davis just said that Hillary Clinton will be the best Secretary of State in the history of this country.

/the only thing "good" about it is that it keeps her off the Supreme Court and out of contention for 2012

And Obama know that. Smart move on his part.

758 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:27:46pm

re: #573 Neo Con since 9-11 Well I don't know about a wise man, much less a very wise man, but you can sure tell 'em I told you that!

759 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:28:12pm

re: #756 Sharmuta

Yes it does. We are animals.

Evening sunshine.

760 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:28:36pm

re: #756 Sharmuta

Yes it does. We are animals.

761 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:28:39pm

re: #759 Walter L. Newton

Hi Walter.

762 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:28:42pm

Geebus I can't believe how fast this thread is moving!
HEY Y'ALL - HOW'S ABOUT TAKING A BREAK AND LETTING AN OLD(er) MAN CATCH UP, HUH?!?

763 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:28:50pm

re: #665 logboy

Luck!

764 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:07pm

re: #742 SpaceJesus

you know, I really think you can get the same sentiment across by not resorting to petty name calling and vulgar language.

SpaceJesus
Karma: -42

/lick yourself

765 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:10pm

re: #754 Emphasis

Though I understand your comment, you must agree that this does not apply to animal behavior

Got proof of that? The self continuation instinct of every species is hard to deny.

766 little boomer  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:12pm

re: #753 Killian Bundy

Oh boy, the human weasel Lanny Davis just said that Hillary Clinton will be the best Secretary of State in the history of this country.

/the only thing "good" about it is that it keeps her off the Supreme Court and out of contention for 2012

"Out of contention for 2012" muhaaahaaa! You're a sweet trusting kid!

767 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:21pm

re: #760 jcm

Did you just want to quote me, or was there more to that comment I'm not seeing?

768 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:30pm

re: #742 SpaceJesus

you know, I really think you can get the same sentiment across by not resorting to petty name calling and vulgar language.

You're back?

769 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:39pm

re: #760 jcm

A comment would be nice...
re: #756 Sharmuta

Yes it does. We are animals.

Speak for yourself...
Ahhhrrr...
;-P

770 LilyGecko  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:29:46pm

Oops. It's past my bedtime. Goodnight, lizards.

771 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:30:11pm

re: #751 Tarkus289

Very cool handle..

Thanks - back then very few had a clue what it was about. I had a lot of fun with it. I used another one now and again - Chestnut.

772 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:30:13pm

I know how we can win the war against radical Islam.

Rock and Roll, baby.
Do It Again - The Chemical Brothers

Get the kids hooked on it.

773 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:30:42pm

re: #767 Sharmuta

Itching comment button finger...

774 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:31:17pm

re: #738 Dar ul Harb

Science is a lot bigger than when you (and even I) went to school, and the available hours in "science class" haven't increased. ...

Very true. The average human being has a limit to how much they can understand, though. Actually, science and technology related classes has tended to push out of the curriculum things like US history and Civics. Except for doing away with the agrarian nature of our school calendars, we have to make decisions on how much new stuff we can have people learn.

775 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:31:17pm

re: #742 SpaceJesus

you know, I really think you can get the same sentiment across by not resorting to petty name calling and vulgar language.

He hath risen.

776 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:31:23pm

re: #704 MandyManners

Valium?

/More like watered-down Kool Aid from Jonestown...not lethal, but mind-screwing.

777 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:31:26pm

re: #773 jcm

Itching comment button finger...

Or animal instinct? ;p

778 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:31:29pm

re: #665 logboy

Good luck and good hunting.

779 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:32:02pm

re: #771 Bobibutu

1kw, is pretty impressive, what is the furthest you were able to reach?
and where from?

780 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:32:09pm

re: #775 Moe Katz

He hath risen.

Is he someone's sock puppet?

781 SpaceJesus  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:32:09pm

re: #768 Lynn B.

You're back?

consider it the second coming

782 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:32:26pm

re: #765 rawmuse

Got proof of that? The self continuation instinct of every species is hard to deny.

And I am told that pigs have orgasms that last half an hour. I have no idea if it's true, or not. I don't particularly care. It sounds like a lot of fun, and explains why pigs put up with the whole "being a pig" business.

Come to think of it, it also explains why they're so mean.

783 SpaceJesus  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:32:30pm

re: #775 Moe Katz

He hath risen.

damn. beaten.

784 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:33:11pm

re: #753 Killian Bundy

Oh boy, the human weasel Lanny Davis just said that Hillary Clinton will be the best Secretary of State in the history of this country.

/the only thing "good" about it is that it keeps her off the Supreme Court and out of contention for 2012

This is getting ridiculous.

Obama is already a much better president than FDR and Lincoln?

Hillary is already the best Secretary of State in history?

These morons are setting expectations so high there is only one way to go.

785 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:33:41pm

"A debate is raging over a state board requirement that students be taught the strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories as early as middle school. That “strengths and weaknesses” language is a way to attack evolution and clear the path for religious doctrines like creationism and intelligent design to be taught." I don't understand this. Shouldn't strengths and weaknesses of theories be taught to students? Shouldn't we encourage them to see all sides of an issue, to reason, to examine, to think?

Evolution is a theory. Creationism is a theory. I happen to believe in God and I believe He created us. I am not stupid, I am well-read and intelligent. I am not afraid of science, nor have I read anything that negates my faith in God. I do not believe I should through my beliefs out the door if I am on a school board. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. Teach about them both, but teach about them fairly or teach about neither one.

786 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:33:44pm

Time for some sleeps, g'nite all.

Bangles

/still people posting in that gay marriage thread, hot topic...

787 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:33:54pm

re: #756 Sharmuta

We are animals.

/Joseph Merrick would beg to differ

788 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:34:13pm

re: #782 Dianna

Half an hour? I was considering becoming a house cat in my next life. Perhaps I'll reconsider that now. ;p

789 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:34:41pm

re: #600 FurryOldGuyJeans
Well comment was deleted but apparently he's not banned...yet.
Why on earth would he make a comment like that?!

790 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:34:56pm

re: #782 Dianna

And I am told that pigs have orgasms that last half an hour. I have no idea if it's true, or not. I don't particularly care. It sounds like a lot of fun, and explains why pigs put up with the whole "being a pig" business.

Come to think of it, it also explains why they're so mean.

Hell, I would put up with being a pig for that. Wait, er, some people have called my dating habits pig like.

791 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:13pm

re: #784 Racer X

This is getting ridiculous.

Obama is already a much better president than FDR and Lincoln?

Hillary is already the best Secretary of State in history?

These morons are setting expectations so high there is only one way to go.

I am going to be entirely serene while the entire Obama administration rushes over the cliff and goes "splat" on the rocks. Perhaps it will be so bad that the metaphor will extend to no member of said administration ever holding any public office again, and not even being welcome on the lecture circuit.

792 NY Nana  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:16pm

re: #753 Killian Bundy

Saw it earlier, and literally changed the channel, as I tend to spit at him...I cannot stand him..that smarmy, sanctimonious face...hey, you just insulted weasels.

793 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:34pm

re: #786 Thanos

Gay bar!

794 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:34pm

re: #788 Sharmuta

Half an hour? I was considering becoming a house cat in my next life. Perhaps I'll reconsider that now. ;p

Don't do it.

I was a house cat last time around. Every once in a while I still yak up a hairball.

795 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:51pm

re: #790 Walter L. Newton

I'm assuming that is female pigs only... I think.

796 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:55pm
797 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:35:59pm

re: #782 Dianna

And I am told that pigs have orgasms that last half an hour.

Boars have rather, er, peculiar boar parts, if you have ever worked on a farm. Don't know if that accounts for said orgasmic stamina.

798 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:36:25pm

re: #611 Moe Katz Maybe he's a newbie - but making nasty comments about Mandy or anyone else's mom is really out of limits for me.

799 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:36:33pm

re: #785 ChargerGirl

You need to do some homework. Try researching what "theory" means in science.

800 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:36:43pm

re: #788 Sharmuta

Half an hour? I was considering becoming a house cat in my next life. Perhaps I'll reconsider that now. ;p

Purring might be better than chocolate-dipped orange peel, but I doubt it's better than properly done sex with someone you love.

801 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:37:03pm

re: #784 Racer X

This is getting ridiculous.

Obama is already a much better president than FDR and Lincoln?

Hillary is already the best Secretary of State in history?

These morons are setting expectations so high there is only one way to go.

And can you feel the change tonight
It is where we are
It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer
That we got this far
And can you feel the hope tonight
How it's laid to rest
It's enough to make kings and vagabonds
Believe the very best

802 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:37:47pm

re: #748 Mich-again

I think being good at math depends on being able to draw the problem.

True--if only high school students even get to that part of the problem. The difference between me (30yr) and my sister (recent college grad) going to the same school was that my teachers were all 5 years from retirement. They were strict, challenging, and just taught the facts. My sister's high school geometry teacher for instance was a moron that didn't actually know or understand basic Geometry.

803 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:37:54pm

re: #779 Tarkus289

1kw, is pretty impressive, what is the furthest you were able to reach?
and where from?

I was mostly on I-5 from the Bay Area to Seattle. Worked the entire US and Canada with occasional skip to and from Europe.

This was mobile with a K-40 whip - not a Base station.

804 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:38:05pm

re: #616 pingjockey
Good night Ping - take care of that eye my friend!

805 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:38:49pm

re: #798 realwest

Maybe he's a newbie - but making nasty comments about Mandy or anyone else's mom is really out of limits for me.

Make rude comments about Mandy?

Might as well suck on a 12 gauge, outcome will be the same.

806 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:38:56pm

re: #785 ChargerGirl

"A debate is raging over a state board requirement that students be taught the strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories as early as middle school. That “strengths and weaknesses” language is a way to attack evolution and clear the path for religious doctrines like creationism and intelligent design to be taught." I don't understand this. Shouldn't strengths and weaknesses of theories be taught to students? Shouldn't we encourage them to see all sides of an issue, to reason, to examine, to think?

Evolution is a theory. Creationism is a theory. I happen to believe in God and I believe He created us. I am not stupid, I am well-read and intelligent. I am not afraid of science, nor have I read anything that negates my faith in God. I do not believe I should through my beliefs out the door if I am on a school board. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. Teach about them both, but teach about them fairly or teach about neither one.

Wrong...

"In science the word theory is not a synonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet but we invoke theories of gravity to explain this occurence. However, even inside the sciences the word theory picks out several different concepts dependent on the context. In casual speech scientsts don't use the term theory particularly precisce fashion, allowing historical accidents to determine whether a given body of scientific work is called a theory, law, principle or something else. For instance Einstein's relativity is usually called "the theory of relativity" while Newton's theory of gravity often is called "the law of gravity." In this kind of casual use by scientists the word theory can be used flexibly to refer to whatever kind of explanation or prediction is being examined. It is for this instance that a scientific theory is a claim based on a body of evidence."

807 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:38:57pm

re: #785 ChargerGirl

"A debate is raging over a state board requirement that students be taught the strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories as early as middle school. That “strengths and weaknesses” language is a way to attack evolution and clear the path for religious doctrines like creationism and intelligent design to be taught." I don't understand this. Shouldn't strengths and weaknesses of theories be taught to students? Shouldn't we encourage them to see all sides of an issue, to reason, to examine, to think?

Evolution is a theory. Creationism is a theory. I happen to believe in God and I believe He created us. I am not stupid, I am well-read and intelligent. I am not afraid of science, nor have I read anything that negates my faith in God. I do not believe I should through my beliefs out the door if I am on a school board. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. Teach about them both, but teach about them fairly or teach about neither one.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. It has much empirical evidence to support it. Biblical literalist creationism is not a theory; it is a religious belief. There is no empirical evidence to support it, and much empirical evidence that refutes it.

A theory in science is much stronger than the connotation of the word in common parlance.

808 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:39:02pm
809 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:39:05pm

re: #800 Dianna

properly done sex

CoUgH!

810 Palandine  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:39:23pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout

Amen. I trust someone like Sarah Palin who knows what goes into her meals to actually be more humble about where food comes from than someone removed from it.

I intend to take the hunter education courses this winter and start in on bunnies and squirrels next season, maybe eventually turkey and deer. As it is now, the only animals I've ever killed for food are fish, and even those I thanked (hokey, I know) as I cleaned them.

/mmm, Thanksgiving, can't wait

811 Cognito  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:39:43pm

re: #796 jcm

Oops! Bush Wasn't Snubbed at the G20 After All

Glad to see that.

I suspect Rick Sanchez feels like quite the maroon, after wallowing in it the way he did.

812 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:39:45pm

re: #742 SpaceJesus

you know, I really think you can get the same sentiment across by not resorting to petty name calling and vulgar language.

punk..

813 pat  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:01pm

This topic is not going to change for a while, is it? lol

814 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:10pm

re: #803 Bobibutu

Best we did was New York to Louisiana with 50 watts, Arizona with skip.

815 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:11pm

re: #809 Mich-again

CoUgH!

Ahem.

I'm sorry. What did I do, this time?

816 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:21pm

re: #802 BryanS

My sister's high school geometry teacher ...didn't actually know or understand basic Geometry.

Now how is that supposed to work?

817 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:53pm

re: #628 MandyManners
What's she pissed off about?

818 Colonel Panik  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:55pm

re: #791 Dianna

I am going to be entirely serene while the entire Obama administration rushes over the cliff and goes "splat" on the rocks. Perhaps it will be so bad that the metaphor will extend to no member of said administration ever holding any public office again, and not even being welcome on the lecture circuit.

One can only Hope™!

819 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:40:57pm

re: #708 Dar ul Harb

My policy argument here is, though (see? lawyer!), the purpose of your public high school education is presumably to have an educated electorate so they can make informed decisions on policy issues. When's the last time anything having to do with evolution had to be voted on, except when these blessed biblical literalists put it there?

No, the purpose of public (or any other) high school education is presumably to generate informed and productive members of society, which goes way beyond voting. America is already slipping way behind in our ability to produce cutting edge scientists and scientific innovations, and a lot of that is due to the failure of public education to provide a sufficiently robust launching pad to give our young people a head start in college.

820 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:41:24pm

re: #791 Dianna

I am going to be entirely serene while the entire Obama administration rushes over the cliff and goes "splat" on the rocks. Perhaps it will be so bad that the metaphor will extend to no member of said administration ever holding any public office again, and not even being welcome on the lecture circuit.

I'm goin' fishing in the Delta for the ignoramation - wanna grab the male and come along? We could have a Lizard fishin' party.

821 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:41:38pm

re: #814 Tarkus289

Best we did was New York to Louisiana with 50 watts, Arizona with skip.

What are you talking about, ham or amplified CB, longwave, shortwave, what?

822 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:42:25pm

re: #811 Cognito

Glad to see that.

I suspect Rick Sanchez feels like quite the maroon, after wallowing in it the way he did.

Good to see you back!

823 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:42:54pm

re: #821 Walter L. Newton

Amplified C.B. sideband. '70s

824 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:42:58pm

re: #802 BryanS

True--if only high school students even get to that part of the problem. The difference between me (30yr) and my sister (recent college grad) going to the same school was that my teachers were all 5 years from retirement. They were strict, challenging, and just taught the facts. My sister's high school geometry teacher for instance was a moron that didn't actually know or understand basic Geometry.

Yes, I've noticed this too. I graduated from a mediocre public high school in 1985. But I learned real subject matter...a course in Shakespeare, serious English grammar and composition, biology, chemistry, anatomy & physiology, and had excellent instruction in geometry and trigonometry. It prepared me well to go on to get 2 degrees in hard sciences with honors.

Most of my high school teachers have passed away already. They were the old guard. The young ones left education a few years after I graduated.

825 Stonemason  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:42:58pm

re: #785 ChargerGirl

Nope, one is for Sunday, in a house of worship, the other is for the classroom. Pretty simple really.

826 little boomer  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:43:12pm

re: #813 pat

What's the topic?

827 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:43:24pm

re: #811 Cognito

Glad to see that.

I suspect Rick Sanchez feels like quite the maroon, after wallowing in it the way he did.

Cog... is that a ghost. I see dead people.

828 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:43:39pm

re: #823 Tarkus289

Amplified C.B. sideband. '70s

Naughty naughty!

829 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:43:41pm

re: #791 Dianna

I am going to be entirely serene while the entire Obama administration rushes over the cliff and goes "splat" on the rocks.

I disagree. I hope his administration is a success and America is better off from him having served as President. However slim that hope may be, I am still rooting for my Country.

830 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:16pm

re: #814 Tarkus289

Best we did was New York to Louisiana with 50 watts, Arizona with skip.

Nothing wrong with that - it is amazing what can be done in our atmosphere with a little focused energy.

831 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:17pm

re: #822 jcm

I didn't realize you enjoyed urine soaked rugs.

832 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:21pm

re: #828 Walter L. Newton

Fun..fun fun. Besides, Carter was president.

833 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:27pm

Mad skillz,

Nunchucking Ping Pong

834 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:31pm

re: #811 Cognito

Hey! Glad to see you are back here.

835 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:32pm

I could watch "O Brother Where Art Thou" a hunnerd times.

836 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:43pm

re: #796 jcm

Oops! Bush Wasn't Snubbed at the G20 After All

A perfect example of Bush blowing an opportunity and looking like a goof. He has got be the worst PR president in history.

Who are his handlers?

837 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:47pm

re: #654 jaunte
Yep, ME TOO!

838 Irene NYC  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:44:54pm

re: #811 Cognito

Hi cog, nice to see you around. Let's argue!
;)

839 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:06pm

re: #798 realwest

Maybe he's a newbie - but making nasty comments about Mandy or anyone else's mom is really out of limits for me.

Oh, I didn't mean to defend him at all. I meant just what I said, that I had no recollection of the bloke.

840 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:10pm

Stunning.

841 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:16pm

re: #785 ChargerGirl

"...Evolution is a theory. Creationism is a theory. I happen to believe in God and I believe He created us. I am not stupid, I am well-read and intelligent. I am not afraid of science, nor have I read anything that negates my faith in God. I do not believe I should through my beliefs out the door if I am on a school board. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. Teach about them both, but teach about them fairly or teach about neither one.

Creationism is not a scientific theory, it is a religion. A theory in the context of science is a hypothesis that can be tested. What testable hypothesis does Creationism offer? I certainly approve of your right to you faith and beliefs, but faith is not the same thing as science.

842 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:20pm

re: #811 Cognito

Glad to see you made it back.

843 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:36pm

re: #823 Tarkus289

Amplified C.B. sideband. '70s

I was staying at the lodge, on the mesa top, at Mesa Verde one Oct., just a week before the park closed for the season. Below freezing nights, 60's in the day.

I was monitoring with a handheld CB and I was getting rag chewers for L.A.

Quite a skip.

844 Irene NYC  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:53pm

Hi real, gorgeous day in NYC - and I'm still getting over the flu...slowly...
;)

845 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:45:58pm

Lots of love for cogs. Ha.

846 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:46:12pm

re: #833 jcm

That is insane.

847 Dianna  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:46:17pm

Goodnight!

848 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:46:41pm

re: #831 Sharmuta

I didn't realize you enjoyed urine soaked rugs.

Ah- good evening dear lady. I did catch an odor a bit ago as well.

849 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:46:47pm

re: #830 Bobibutu

it is amazing what can be done in our atmosphere with a little focused energy.

/tell me about it

850 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:46:52pm

re: #801 jcm

Hilarious :!)

851 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:46:56pm

re: #789 realwest

Well comment was deleted but apparently he's not banned...yet.
Why on earth would he make a comment like that?!

An hour ago, SJ was blocked. Now ... not. So someone gave it a reprieve, it would seem. Either that or I had much more to drink tonight that I thought.

852 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:47:08pm

re: #847 Dianna

Goodnight!

Backatcha and me too.

853 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:47:11pm

re: #847 Dianna

Goodnight!

Goodnight, Dianna, be well!

854 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:47:21pm

re: #848 Bobibutu

I had no idea moldy bread and rotten butter was such a favorite menu item.

855 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:47:55pm

re: #662 Noam Sayin'
Ah, well do what I used to do - buy TWO* spare liters and keep 'em handy for nights like this!


Two cause we both know you'll use one and forget to replace it in time for the next nearly dry spell!

Sleep well my friend!

856 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:05pm

re: #849 Killian Bundy

/tell me about it

Black project, UFO, quick, give me my tin foil hat. They are going to heat up the... zap...

857 rawmuse  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:09pm

To forgive is Divine.

858 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:21pm

re: #816 Mich-again

Now how is that supposed to work?

It doesn't. Just a sad fact.

859 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:24pm

re: #833 jcm

That was f*cking cool.

860 jaunte  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:29pm

Goodnight all.

861 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:31pm

re: #849 Killian Bundy

Is that what I always here George Nory talking about?
I assume you know who that is.

862 Cognito  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:48:43pm

re: #845 Mich-again

Lots of love for cogs. Ha.

I sent around bags of cash.

863 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:49:15pm

here = hear, so sorry.

864 Irene NYC  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:49:16pm

re: #862 Cognito

I sent around bags of cash.

These days, I prefer gold.

865 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:49:26pm

re: #862 Cognito

I sent around bags of cash.

Where is mine beezotchie?

866 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:49:29pm

re: #831 Sharmuta

I didn't realize you enjoyed urine soaked rugs.

LOL!

My living room no, the rumpus room there room for some slack...
;-P

867 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:49:29pm

re: #861 Tarkus289

Is that what I always here George Nory talking about?
I assume you know who that is.

Yep, he does talk about that a lot.

868 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:50:29pm

Seeya in the morning, all.

Well. Most of you.

869 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:50:29pm

re: #865 Mich-again

Where is mine beezotchie?

Ok, what is a "beezotchie." (Am I going to be sorry I asked?)

870 Cognito  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:50:30pm

re: #864 Irene NYC

These days, I prefer gold.

I've put my savings in canned food and Hi-C fruit juice pouches, with some Laffy Taffy thrown in for the sake of portfolio diversification.

871 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:50:49pm

I listen to coast to coast while I sleep, so that when I wake up, my radio is on the talk station (WABC)

872 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:50:59pm

re: #676 Mich-again
Why not twice as wide as it is tall?

873 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:51:10pm

re: #746 Salamantis

I kinda like this explanation, myself...

Dear Cecil:
Cecil, you're my final hope
Of finding out the true Straight Dope
For I have been reading of Schroedinger's cat
But none of my cats are at all like that.
This unusual animal (so it is said)
Is simultaneously live and dead!
What I don't understand is just why he
Can't be one or other, unquestionably.
My future now hangs in between eigenstates.
In one I'm enlightened, the other I ain't.
If you understand, Cecil, then show me the way
And rescue my psyche from quantum decay.
But if this queer thing has perplexed even you,
Then I will and won't see you in Schroedinger's zoo.
— Randy F., Chicago

Dear Randy:
Schroedinger, Erwin! Professor of physics!
Wrote daring equations! Confounded his critics!
(Not bad, eh? Don't worry. This part of the verse
Starts off pretty good, but it gets a lot worse.)
Win saw that the theory that Newton'd invented
By Einstein's discov'ries had been badly dented.
What now? wailed his colleagues. Said Erwin, "Don't panic,
No grease monkey I, but a quantum mechanic.
Consider electrons. Now, these teeny articles
Are sometimes like waves, and then sometimes like particles.
If that's not confusing, the nuclear dance
Of electrons and suchlike is governed by chance!
No sweat, though--my theory permits us to judge
Where some of 'em is and the rest of 'em was."
Not everyone bought this. It threatened to wreck
The comforting linkage of cause and effect.
E'en Einstein had doubts, and so Schroedinger tried
To tell him what quantum mechanics implied.
Said Win to Al, "Brother, suppose we've a cat,
And inside a tube we have put that cat at--
Along with a solitaire deck and some Fritos,
A bottle of Night Train, a couple mosquitoes
(Or something else rhyming) and, oh, if you got 'em,
One vial prussic acid, one decaying ottom
Or atom--whatever--but when it emits,
A trigger device blasts the vial into bits
Which snuffs our poor kitty. The odds of this crime
Are 50 to 50 per hour each time.
The cylinder's sealed. The hour's passed away. Is
Our pussy still purring--or pushing up daisies?
Now, you'd say the cat either lives or it don't
But quantum mechanics is stubborn and won't.
Statistically speaking, the cat (goes the joke),
Is half a cat breathing and half a cat croaked.
To some this may seem a ridiculous split,
But quantum mechanics must answer, "Tough @#&!
We may not know much, but one thing's fo' sho':
There's things in the cosmos that we cannot know.
Shine light on electrons--you'll cause them to swerve.
The act of observing disturbs the observed--
Which ruins your test. But then if there's no testing
To see if a particle's moving or resting
Why try to conjecture? Pure useless endeavor!
We know probability--certainty, never.'
The effect of this notion? I very much fear
'Twill make doubtful all things that were formerly clear.
Till soon the cat doctors will say in reports,
"We've just flipped a coin and we've learned he's a corpse."'
So saith Herr Erwin. Quoth Albert, "You're nuts.
God doesn't play dice with the universe, putz.
I'll prove it!" he said, and the Lord knows he tried--
In vain--until fin'ly he more or less died.
Win spoke at the funeral: "Listen, dear friends,
Sweet Al was my buddy. I must make amends.
Though he doubted my theory, I'll say of this saint:
Ten-to-one he's in heaven--but five bucks says he ain't."
— Cecil Adams

874 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:51:35pm

re: #870 Cognito

I've put my savings in canned food and Hi-C fruit juice pouches, with some Laffy Taffy thrown in for the sake of portfolio diversification.

Always the contrarian.

875 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:51:52pm

re: #872 realwest

Why not twice as wide as it is tall?

Too much surface area, or aluminum if you are making millions of cans.

876 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:52:12pm

re: #867 Walter L. Newton

Yep, he does talk about that a lot.

How else do you think we get our nightly operational orders for our chemtrail runs? By email? Jeeze.
/

877 Irene NYC  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:52:21pm

re: #870 Cognito

I've put my savings in canned food and Hi-C fruit juice pouches, with some Laffy Taffy thrown in for the sake of portfolio diversification.


We've always had food stores in my family. I'm investing in gold dust.

878 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:52:25pm

re: #870 Cognito

So, I'm dying to know, what was it like on the other side? Did you see a bright light? Were there angels and demons?

879 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:52:27pm

re: #843 Walter L. Newton

I was staying at the lodge, on the mesa top, at Mesa Verde one Oct., just a week before the park closed for the season. Below freezing nights, 60's in the day.

I was monitoring with a handheld CB and I was getting rag chewers for L.A.

Quite a skip.

Heh - back in Nam we used Troposcatter to skip data from Nam to Clark in the Philippines - and then from there to Hickam in Hawaii and from there to the Pentagon. That was skip!

880 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:52:59pm

re: #877 Irene NYC

We've always had food stores in my family. I'm investing in gold dust.

Don't overlook returnable soda bottles, if you have the space at home.

881 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:53:12pm

re: #871 Tarkus289

I listen to coast to coast while I sleep, so that when I wake up, my radio is on the talk station (WABC)

DON'T DO THAT. They put subliminal messages in their shows. That's just what they want you to do, fall asleep and then they can program you.

Did you wonder why you have been having so many anal probe dreams? Yep, it's that show. Careful.

882 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:53:29pm

re: #825 Stonemason

Simple? Then why is it still such a heated area of discussion? Because you cannot PROVE either one. Teach both, that's my point. Neither side should be afraid of the other. As a lawyer, I'm quite familiar with reasoned debates and see no reason why this subject should be treated any differently than any other subject that cannot be proven or disproven by methods we currently have at our disposal.

883 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:53:43pm

re: #869 Walter L. Newton

Kind of like what River sings about in Troublemaker.

884 Cognito  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:53:47pm

re: #878 Racer X

So, I'm dying to know, what was it like on the other side? Did you see a bright light? Were there angels and demons?

There was unusual productivity.

885 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:53:51pm

re: #881 Walter L. Newton

DON'T DO THAT. They put subliminal messages in their shows. That's just what they want you to do, fall asleep and then they can program you.

Did you wonder why you have been having so many anal probe dreams? Yep, it's that show. Careful.

Sure they are dreams?

886 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:53:51pm

re: #875 Mich-again

Too much surface area, or aluminum if you are making millions of cans.

That rings faint bells in my memory. Do you use a simple differential equation to get that can proportion thing?

887 Irene NYC  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:54:01pm

re: #880 Moe Katz

Don't overlook returnable soda bottles, if you have the space at home.


Who are you kidding? I live in NYC. Part of my charitable giving is to leave all our deposit bottles outside for the homeless.
;)

888 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:54:16pm

re: #849 Killian Bundy

/tell me about it

Have you been there?

889 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:54:21pm

re: #698 Hobbes
regrettfully the image did finish in my mind, but I thought I'd spare all y'all!
(dons hair shirt).

890 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:54:26pm

Hey Cog- I got you a welcome back gift.

891 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:54:50pm

re: #880 Moe Katz

Don't overlook returnable soda bottles, if you have the space at home.

Those old crates of 16oz. glass Coke bottles in the backyard are now worth more than my IRA.

892 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:54:54pm

re: #886 Moe Katz

simpler than that.

893 Tarkus289  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:55:04pm

re: #881 Walter L. Newton

I do believe it influences some of my dreams, have not had the "anal probe" one ...yet, although I think I have dreams of shadow people.

894 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:55:17pm

re: #888 Bobibutu

Have you been there?

/no, why?

895 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:55:32pm

re: #883 Mich-again

Kind of like what River sings about in Troublemaker.

Oh good. Yep, that clear my question up. NOT!

896 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:55:49pm

re: #882 ChargerGirl

You are sorely lacking knowledge on this subject. Please study up on evolution from reputable sources or continue to get your ass handed to you around here.

897 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:55:52pm

re: #887 Irene NYC

Who are you kidding? I live in NYC. Part of my charitable giving is to leave all our deposit bottles outside for the homeless.
;)

Your name will be written in the book of life.

898 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:57:26pm

re: #896 Sharmuta

You are sorely lacking knowledge on this subject. Please study up on evolution from reputable sources or continue to get your ass handed to you around here.

Um, you won't hand me my ass. I have studied. Just because I believe in God and creationism does not mean I am sorely lacking knowledge on this subject. Please do not make such an assumption. We don't agree, but I don't think less of you for your beliefs, please don't belittle me for mine.

899 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:58:05pm

re: #720 Hobbes
Why do you think he stands so straight and moves so woodenly, hmmm?!

900 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:58:08pm

re: #894 Killian Bundy

/no, why?

Curious - I have some acquaintances who were.

901 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:58:14pm

re: #893 Tarkus289

I do believe it influences some of my dreams, have not had the "anal probe" one ...yet, although I think I have dreams of shadow people.

Yep, I know what you are talking about. It's starting to happen to you too. Next comes the little guy at the foot of your bed. And then it gets a bit shaky... sure... no problem... just go to my happy place, that's it, breath slow...

902 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:58:42pm
903 Racer X  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:58:54pm

Dramatic exit.

904 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:59:00pm

re: #898 ChargerGirl

I didn't belittle your beliefs, Honey. I belittled your scientific knowledge, or lack thereof.

905 Stonemason  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:59:17pm

re: #882 ChargerGirl

Once again, Nope, this is SIMPLE. It is folks that try to make it more than it is that confuse the issue. One is science, one is religion. Teach one in Church, one in Science class.

There is plenty of proof of evolution, and there is no disproof of Creation. Let the science teachers teach the science, have the religious teachers explain how God did it.

SIMPLE

906 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:59:30pm

re: #811 Cognito

Glad to see that.

I suspect Rick Sanchez feels like quite the maroon, after wallowing in it the way he did.

I doubt it; they're incapable of shame.

907 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:59:41pm

re: #898 ChargerGirl

Um, you won't hand me my ass. I have studied. Just because I believe in God and creationism does not mean I am sorely lacking knowledge on this subject. Please do not make such an assumption. We don't agree, but I don't think less of you for your beliefs, please don't belittle me for mine.

if you truly have studied this subject, you are revealing yourself as an uncomprehending idiot..law degree or not.

908 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 9:59:52pm

re: #884 Cognito

There was unusual productivity.

That struck close to home.

909 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:00:33pm

re: #904 Sharmuta

I didn't belittle your beliefs, Honey. I belittled your scientific knowledge, or lack thereof.

Which is an assumption on your part that you should not have made. And don't call me Honey. Thank you. I only posted because this topic interested me. I don't want to argue, I just wanted to make a point. Please don't think I am ignorant and/or not well-read because that is not true.

910 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:00:56pm

re: #900 Bobibutu

Curious - I have some acquaintances who were.

I was just pointing out that it's the largest and most powerful radio array on the planet.

/and it don't broadcast the nightly news

911 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:01:00pm

re: #738 Dar ul Harb
HEY! Whaddya mean "(and even I)" - I'm not that old, uh, yet!

912 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:01:08pm

re: #904 Sharmuta

I didn't belittle your beliefs, Honey. I belittled your scientific knowledge, or lack thereof.

Touche. Big poop, she's a lawyer. What does that mean? The thinking skills a lawyer uses is a far sight different than the critical thinking skills that a scientist uses.

913 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:01:17pm

re: #909 ChargerGirl

Uh- it IS true. You don't know the meaning of "theory" in the scientific context.

914 fiat_lux  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:01:36pm

re: #594 itellu3times

Groucho Marx is my favorite comedian of all time. I know every word he every spoke in every movie and every/tv show. That's hyperbole but you receive my drift.

915 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:01:58pm

re: #907 joecitizen

if you truly have studied this subject, you are revealing yourself as an uncomprehending idiot..law degree or not.

Gee, that was nice and so adult. I am not an idiot, I have read on the subject. I merely wanted to state what I thought. Please don't consider yourself smarter than I am just because we believe differently. That is not what LGF is all about.

916 Steffan  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:02:01pm

re: #836 Racer X

A perfect example of Bush blowing an opportunity and looking like a goof. He has got be the worst PR president in history.

Who are his handlers?

That's the real problem -- the MSM is going out of their way to make him look like a goof.

20 years from now, he'll be a combination of Truman and Reagan.

917 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:02:14pm

re: #882 ChargerGirl

Simple? Then why is it still such a heated area of discussion? Because you cannot PROVE either one. Teach both, that's my point. Neither side should be afraid of the other. As a lawyer, I'm quite familiar with reasoned debates and see no reason why this subject should be treated any differently than any other subject that cannot be proven or disproven by methods we currently have at our disposal.

Just because creationists whinge about it doesn't mean that evolution is in any rational doubt:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

Excerpt:

The focus on intelligent design has, paradoxically, obscured something else: genuine scientific controversies about evolution that abound. In just about every field there are challenges to one established theory or another. The legitimate way to stir up such a storm is to come up with an alternative theory that makes a prediction that is crisply denied by the reigning theory - but that turns out to be true, or that explains something that has been baffling defenders of the status quo, or that unifies two distant theories at the cost of some element of the currently accepted view.

To date, the proponents of intelligent design have not produced anything like that. No experiments with results that challenge any mainstream biological understanding. No observations from the fossil record or genomics or biogeography or comparative anatomy that undermine standard evolutionary thinking.

Instead, the proponents of intelligent design use a ploy that works something like this. First you misuse or misdescribe some scientist's work. Then you get an angry rebuttal. Then, instead of dealing forthrightly with the charges leveled, you cite the rebuttal as evidence that there is a "controversy" to teach.

Note that the trick is content-free. You can use it on any topic. "Smith's work in geology supports my argument that the earth is flat," you say, misrepresenting Smith's work. When Smith responds with a denunciation of your misuse of her work, you respond, saying something like: "See what a controversy we have here? Professor Smith and I are locked in a titanic scientific debate. We should teach the controversy in the classrooms." And here is the delicious part: you can often exploit the very technicality of the issues to your own advantage, counting on most of us to miss the point in all the difficult details.

William Dembski, one of the most vocal supporters of intelligent design, notes that he provoked Thomas Schneider, a biologist, into a response that Dr. Dembski characterizes as "some hair-splitting that could only look ridiculous to outsider observers." What looks to scientists - and is - a knockout objection by Dr. Schneider is portrayed to most everyone else as ridiculous hair-splitting.

In short, no science. Indeed, no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon. This might seem surprising to people who think that intelligent design competes directly with the hypothesis of non-intelligent design by natural selection. But saying, as intelligent design proponents do, "You haven't explained everything yet," is not a competing hypothesis. Evolutionary biology certainly hasn't explained everything that perplexes biologists. But intelligent design hasn't yet tried to explain anything.

To formulate a competing hypothesis, you have to get down in the trenches and offer details that have testable implications.

918 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:02:17pm

re: #909 ChargerGirl

Which is an assumption on your part that you should not have made. And don't call me Honey. Thank you. I only posted because this topic interested me. I don't want to argue, I just wanted to make a point. Please don't think I am ignorant and/or not well-read because that is not true.

Well, you may be well read, and not ignorant, but big deal, your position and statement is still wrong.

919 Irene NYC  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:02:38pm

re: #902 Killian Bundy

Come on big guy, get up!

/via Lucianne


On the L train (14th street) and a couple of other lines in NYC, every time I take it I get super pissed off because they have little brass sculptures about 12" tall of fat cat capitalists holding money bags all over the place that look like the monopoly man (the one in the deck of cards - "You won 2nd place in a beauty pageant...Collect $10")

Hope all those lefty artists are gonna be super happy now that all that corporate largess is evaporating as we speak!

920 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:03:22pm

re: #912 Walter L. Newton

Touche. Big poop, she's a lawyer. What does that mean? The thinking skills a lawyer uses is a far sight different than the critical thinking skills that a scientist uses.

Really? I actually think being a lawyer is quite a noble profession, and not "big poop".

921 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:03:35pm

re: #752 Walter L. Newton
Hey Hi there Walter - I didn't know you were out here, how are you?

922 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:03:50pm

re: #915 ChargerGirl

Please don't consider yourself smarter than I am just because we believe differently. That is not what LGF is all about.


Couldda fooled me.

923 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:04:02pm

Did Charles tell Cognito that he couldn't talk to me. I have posted three times to him and no results.

924 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:04:36pm

re: #914 fiat_lux

Groucho Marx is my favorite comedian of all time. I know every word he every spoke in every movie and every/tv show. That's hyperbole but you receive my drift.

"Hey, aren't you gonna sign the sanity clause?"
"Sanity clause? Everybody knows there ain't no sanity clause!"

925 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:04:39pm

re: #918 Walter L. Newton

Well, you may be well read, and not ignorant, but big deal, your position and statement is still wrong.

That is your opinion. I happen to disagree. Doesn't mean either of us is smarter or dumber, just different opinions based on reasoned and rational thought.

926 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:04:48pm

Not sure if this was posted here, but BOzo's kids will be attending Chelsea Clinton's old school, Sidwell Friends. The previous thread had said they would attending a fundamentalist school.

927 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:04:49pm

re: #920 ChargerGirl

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

928 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:05:48pm

re: #920 ChargerGirl

Really? I actually think being a lawyer is quite a noble profession, and not "big poop".

For sure you are a lawyer, you totally ignored my proposition and ran with a different subject. Now, answer this (I removed the "offensive language)...

"She's a lawyer. What does that mean? The thinking skills a lawyer uses is a far sight different than the critical thinking skills that a scientist uses."

929 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:06:06pm

re: #819 Lynn B.

No, the purpose of public (or any other) high school education is presumably to generate informed and productive members of society, which goes way beyond voting.

So then, the reason that the government has to own and run these schools is to "spread the opportunity around" in a way that could not otherwise be accomplished?

I'm all for competition in education, and for state-level standards. Even if you give students a choice, you'll still have these church-state issues. The difference is, the biblical literalists will be messing up their own schools, rather than trying to get their hands on the centralized lever of power.

America is already slipping way behind in our ability to produce cutting edge scientists and scientific innovations, and a lot of that is due to the failure of public education to provide a sufficiently robust launching pad to give our young people a head start in college.

And that's because of how they teach, as much as what they teach. I'd have students putting GFP into E. coli, and hard drives into computers.

930 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:06:15pm

re: #915 ChargerGirl

Gee, that was nice and so adult. I am not an idiot, I have read on the subject. I merely wanted to state what I thought. Please don't consider yourself smarter than I am just because we believe differently. That is not what LGF is all about.


clearly your belief or your faith overrides all rationality in your thinking..I'd hate to be a client of yours facing time...

931 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:06:42pm

re: #909 ChargerGirl

Which is an assumption on your part that you should not have made. And don't call me Honey. Thank you. I only posted because this topic interested me. I don't want to argue, I just wanted to make a point. Please don't think I am ignorant and/or not well-read because that is not true.

Look. If you continue to broadcast your ignorance here, you can't complain if people call you on it. I'm sure you're well-educated and well-read on a lot of things, but clearly the evolution/creationism debate isn't one of them because your comments so far have been full of factual and conceptual errors.

In all fairness, a lot of us started out on these threads in the same place and you'd probably be amazed to see how many have changed their positions as they've followed the links and the information provided here over the past several months. Give it a try.

932 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:06:48pm

re: #898 ChargerGirl

Um, you won't hand me my ass. I have studied. Just because I believe in God and creationism does not mean I am sorely lacking knowledge on this subject. Please do not make such an assumption. We don't agree, but I don't think less of you for your beliefs, please don't belittle me for mine.

There is a difference between knowledge and beliefs; knowledge requires supporting empirical evidence, while beliefs operate in its complete and utter absence. The veracity of evolutionary theory can be known; the veracity of creationism must be believed in - and in the case of Biblical literalist creationism, it must be believed in not only in the absence of any supporting evidence whatsoever, but also in the face of much conclusive counterfactual empirical evidence.

933 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:07:01pm

re: #921 realwest

Hey Hi there Walter - I didn't know you were out here, how are you?

Good, tired, going to bed soon. Have been at the theatre in two different shifts today. Had an event this morning, and then our regular show tonight.

Same schedule tomorrow. I have to be in at 7:00am.

934 joecitizen  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:07:09pm

re: #915 ChargerGirl
and your karma sucks...

935 Bob Dillon  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:07:55pm

re: #910 Killian Bundy

I was just pointing out that it's the largest and most powerful radio array on the planet.

/and it don't broadcast the nightly news

And the subject of countless conspiracy theories.

God Bless America - Your tax dollars at work!

936 wright1  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:08:33pm

re: #811 Cognito

I have not read the past 4 or 5 threads so I did not see that you are back...is that you? And if it is I welcome you.

937 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:09:07pm

re: #878 Racer X

So, I'm dying to know, what was it like on the other side? Did you see a bright light? Were there angels and demons?

I think you asked that question because you're not dying to know, actually.

938 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:09:35pm

Chargegirl...

Quite while you are ahead. These folks here can give you links to facts that would make your head hurt.

You had better be up on your hard sciences if you are going to debate this issue.

939 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:09:51pm

re: #909 ChargerGirl

Which is an assumption on your part that you should not have made. And don't call me Honey. Thank you. I only posted because this topic interested me. I don't want to argue, I just wanted to make a point. Please don't think I am ignorant and/or not well-read because that is not true.

If you were even remotely approaching as well-read as you apparently think you are, you would not be making the massive, egregious and basic errors of fact, evidence, definition, and logic that you are indisputably making.

940 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:09:55pm

re: #780 Walter L. Newton
I don't think so, I think he's his own idiot. Course that's just a guess since I have no idea of what nasty thing he said about Mandy's mother, just that he said something nasty about Mandy's mother makes me think (or hope) that he's unique.

941 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:11:04pm

re: #929 Dar ul Harb

So then, the reason that the government has to own and run these schools is to "spread the opportunity around" in a way that could not otherwise be accomplished?

That's not even remotely close to what I said. The purpose of the schools is to educate. You're proposing that parts of that education be withheld. Why? Because there's some controversy about the topic? That's self-defeating.

942 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:11:16pm

re: #928 Walter L. Newton

For sure you are a lawyer, you totally ignored my proposition and ran with a different subject. Now, answer this (I removed the "offensive language)...

"She's a lawyer. What does that mean? The thinking skills a lawyer uses is a far sight different than the critical thinking skills that a scientist uses."

Sorry, Walter, not sure what question I'm supposed to answer. The only question you asked is "What does that mean?" I won't answer that because I assume it was rhetorical. I believe lawyers do use critical thinking skills, so I guess we have a few areas we disagree in. Again, I don't want to argue, I was simply making a point about my beliefs. I didn't mean to offend anyone or call them stupid for what they believe, because I don't feel that way, thought they may feel and say such things about me. I just want my beliefs taken seriously, but they haven't been. That's ok. Neither of us will change the other's beliefs via a blog. This is a topic we could sit and talk for hours about; using this forum it is not as conducive to a back and forth discussion.

943 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:11:52pm

re: #942 ChargerGirl

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

944 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:12:48pm

re: #882 ChargerGirl

Simple? Then why is it still such a heated area of discussion? Because you cannot PROVE either one. Teach both, that's my point. Neither side should be afraid of the other. As a lawyer, I'm quite familiar with reasoned debates and see no reason why this subject should be treated any differently than any other subject that cannot be proven or disproven by methods we currently have at our disposal.

Volumes have been written on the evidence supporting evolution, with support from many other disciplines outside of biology, genetics, molecular biology etc...

What evidence is there, I mean hard scientific evidence that points to a creator, creating life the universe and everything?

Therein lies the rub. A creator au priori lies outside the realm of science. He can not be validated in by any means other than spiritual.

Your use of the word PROVE, belies a misunderstanding of the scientific meaning of the word. Proof, in scientific terms, means not only has one answer been shown to be correct, but all other possible answers excluded. Scientific proof is a very elusive commodity.

You also miss the entire crux of the debate about creationism 'round these parts. It's not science vs. faith, its "faith" being taught as science. I use the scare quotes around "faith" in this case because those most active in pushing the teaching of creationism show remarkably bad faith. Using a "faith" to push a political agenda which has very obvious negative consequences down the road.

Now for the full disclosure: I am an evangelical Christian who not only believe in the Creator, but what his creation has to tell me.

945 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:12:51pm

ChargerGirl ignored my and everyone else's challenge to explain exactly what testable hypothesis Creationism posits. Religion is by definition something held on faith and is not testable.

946 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:13:16pm

re: #915 ChargerGirl

Gee, that was nice and so adult. I am not an idiot, I have read on the subject. I merely wanted to state what I thought. Please don't consider yourself smarter than I am just because we believe differently. That is not what LGF is all about.

LGF is anti-idiotarian. Biblical literalist creationism is empirically false. %P%Attempting to place it on an equal epistemological footing with one of the most well-established and solidly supported paradigms in scientific history is idiotarianism at its most abject and blatant.

947 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:13:30pm

re: #930 joecitizen

clearly your belief or your faith overrides all rationality in your thinking..I'd hate to be a client of yours facing time...

You know, that's a pretty rude statement to make to somebody you don't know. I have a different belief than you do, and as I stated before, that is ok. We don't need to belittle one another just because we don't agree on this issue. I am a very rational thinker, I wouldn't have survived 13 years as a criminal prosecutor without the abilities I have. So, let's just disagree, but not attack one another - that's all I ask.

948 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:13:37pm

re: #785 ChargerGirl
Nope, sorry - one is science one is faith. I too am a Christian and believe in God and that Jesus is His son and my Savior - I just don't think THAT FAITH ought to be taught in public schools. And certainly not as science.

949 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:13:59pm

re: #915 ChargerGirl

Gee, that was nice and so adult. I am not an idiot, I have read on the subject. I merely wanted to state what I thought. Please don't consider yourself smarter than I am just because we believe differently. That is not what LGF is all about.

I don't know what you think LGF is all about, but this blog is anti-idiotarian. That means when you're wrong, you'll be taken to task for it. Guess what? You're wrong.

950 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:14:54pm

re: #739 funky chicken

More Kansas. The first link was from 1999. Now from 2005. Please note that Kathleen Sebelius, decidedly unimpressive democrat, was elected governor of KS in 2006.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

The KS battles also show the evolution of Creationism to "Intelligent Design" ... in 1999 the school board members who voted to toss out evolution called themselves Creationists. By 2005 they had switched to marketing themselves as advocates of "Intelligent Design"

same crap, different label


Tell me again that being associated with this crap doesn't hurt the GOP.

KS quite clearly demonstrates that it most certainly does.

951 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:15:26pm

re: #945 BryanS

ChargerGirl ignored my and everyone else's challenge to explain exactly what testable hypothesis Creationism posits. Religion is by definition something held on faith and is not testable.

Of course she's ignored it. It's unlikely she even understands the question.

952 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:16:15pm

re: #925 ChargerGirl

That is your opinion. I happen to disagree. Doesn't mean either of us is smarter or dumber, just different opinions based on reasoned and rational thought.

With the substantial difference that your opinion is based upon reasoning from religious dogma, whereas his is based upon reasoning from empirical evidence.

953 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:16:20pm

re: #938 Walter L. Newton

Chargegirl...

Quite while you are ahead. These folks here can give you links to facts that would make your head hurt.

You had better be up on your hard sciences if you are going to debate this issue.

Walter, trust me, they would not make my head hurt. I have likely read all of the links you are speaking of, since I consider myself quite open minded. I am not an idiot, stupid, or non-thinker. I do not mean to take on all of you in a debate. I saw the topic, kept on topic - unlike most of the other posters right now - and I've been basically called stupid and unthinking by people who don't know me. I'm sure we have much, much more we agree on than what we disagree on. I just wanted to make a point, not be attacked.

954 Stonemason  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:16:33pm

re: #945 BryanS

ChargerGirl ignored my and everyone else's challenge to explain exactly what testable hypothesis Creationism posits. Religion is by definition something held on faith and is not testable.

Correct, and therefore, not disprovable either (well except for that 6000 year old nonsense). This is why Science belongs in school and religion in the house of your choosing. If you want to mix the two, go to a religious school.

Do not force anyone to learn your beliefs.

I said the same thing to my sons ninth grade history teacher with the Nancy Pelosi picture on her desk.

955 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:16:42pm

re: #953 ChargerGirl

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

956 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:18:08pm

re: #917 Salamantis

wish I could give you + 10

957 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:18:33pm

re: #796 jcm
Hi jcm - thanks for that! Hope you're well tonight!

958 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:18:50pm

re: #946 Salamantis

LGF is anti-idiotarian. Biblical literalist creationism is empirically false. %P%Attempting to place it on an equal epistemological footing with one of the most well-established and solidly supported paradigms in scientific history is idiotarianism at its most abject and blatant.

So are you saying I shouldn't be allowed to post here because I don't believe in evolution? I don't think that's what Charles had in mind with creating LGF.
I was a poster when registration first opened, so I've been around a long time. (different nic - recently came back to the LGF blog)

959 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:19:32pm

re: #958 ChargerGirl

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

960 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:20:07pm

re: #957 realwest

Hi jcm - thanks for that! Hope you're well tonight!

Doing excellent, sitting on the couch with a boy asleep on each side. They both got up and came out for some more snuggles.

961 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:20:07pm

re: #950 funky chicken

bolluxed up the quote function and stuck new text inside the quote box.

I believe that means it's bedtime :-)

962 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:20:21pm

re: #954 Stonemason

...I said the same thing to my sons ninth grade history teacher with the Nancy Pelosi picture on her desk.

Scary

963 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:20:26pm

re: #942 ChargerGirl

Sorry, Walter, not sure what question I'm supposed to answer. The only question you asked is "What does that mean?" I won't answer that because I assume it was rhetorical. I believe lawyers do use critical thinking skills, so I guess we have a few areas we disagree in. Again, I don't want to argue, I was simply making a point about my beliefs. I didn't mean to offend anyone or call them stupid for what they believe, because I don't feel that way, thought they may feel and say such things about me. I just want my beliefs taken seriously, but they haven't been. That's ok. Neither of us will change the other's beliefs via a blog. This is a topic we could sit and talk for hours about; using this forum it is not as conducive to a back and forth discussion.

I take your beliefs for what they are - beliefs. That is, unsupported by empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is not believed in, but known, because it IS supported by empirical evidence.

964 Nightwatch  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:21:19pm

Well greetings lizards,

Anyone want an organic orange? Or how about de-listed crates of very fine 7.62 check ammo? I am ready to play on all channels tonight but only for the next 2 minutes, operators are standing by...

Come on Charles, overnight open already..you know what my faith is all about...

965 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:21:27pm

re: #805 jcm No, apparently made rude comments about Mandy's mom.
Mandy is in no position to bitch about people making rude comments about her cause she does it to others all the time, but going after someone's mother is, as I said, waaay the fuck outta bounds.

966 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:21:49pm

re: #958 ChargerGirl

Charles has allowed creationists to stay, some he's shown the door. However- I tried to tell you that continuing to support creationism here will get you a butt chewing.

Additional friendly warning- Salamantis is insatiable on these threads- prepare to be schooled.

967 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:22:25pm

re: #958 ChargerGirl

So are you saying I shouldn't be allowed to post here because I don't believe in evolution? I don't think that's what Charles had in mind with creating LGF.
I was a poster when registration first opened, so I've been around a long time. (different nic - recently came back to the LGF blog)

Not at all.
What is necessary is understanding the difference between faith and science. Bluntly speaking you are going to take a lot of lumps until that distinction is understood.

Something which I have noticed is extremely difficult for many.

968 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:23:01pm

re: #951 Sharmuta

Of course she's ignored it. It's unlikely she even understands the question.

I give up. I'm not here to stage the whole debate. I was just stating an opinion. Rest assured, Sharmuta. I do understand the question - that was very rude and I didn't deserve it. I haven't maligned anybody. As I stated before, this is a topic upon which hours, days, months of discussion can be had, and one I find quite interesting.

969 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:23:45pm

re: #947 ChargerGirl

You know, that's a pretty rude statement to make to somebody you don't know. I have a different belief than you do, and as I stated before, that is ok. We don't need to belittle one another just because we don't agree on this issue. I am a very rational thinker, I wouldn't have survived 13 years as a criminal prosecutor without the abilities I have. So, let's just disagree, but not attack one another - that's all I ask.

You correctly characterize your own stance as belief based, but incorrectly characterize the stances of those who embrace evolution as also belief based, when they are not. They are based upon empirical evidence, and the knowledge of it.

970 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:24:47pm

re: #966 Sharmuta

Charles has allowed creationists to stay, some he's shown the door. However- I tried to tell you that continuing to support creationism here will get you a butt chewing.

Additional friendly warning- Salamantis is insatiable on these threads- prepare to be schooled.

So be it, though I don't think it is right that one's opinion should lead to a butt chewing. I will continue to support creationism, I won't chew anyone's butt, I will respect others' opinions, and I will treat fellow posters with respect. All I ask for is the same in return.

971 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:25:38pm

re: #968 ChargerGirl

Yet as politely as I, and some others have asked, you do not answer that question. No venom here...but you choose not t answer. I can only surmise you have no answer.

972 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:25:42pm

re: #941 Lynn B.

That's not even remotely close to what I said. The purpose of the schools is to educate. You're proposing that parts of that education be withheld. Why? Because there's some controversy about the topic? That's self-defeating.

No, because I favor prioritizing the time available for aspects of science that are of more practical application, and I have little confidence that the public education system, as presently constituted, can do little more than relate the basic facts, if that.

Any curriculum is a question of priorities. Sure, it's "withholding" something to leave out set theory in math, for example, but I'd rather they get their algebra and geometry right. If you're going to be a mathematician, maybe we can get into that, in accelerated studies, if we have time or budget.

973 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:26:41pm

re: #833 jcm
Ah he's good ok, but all the dude with the paddle hadda do was "false" swing and drop a short one on him!
I know, table tennis helped pay my way through college!

974 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:27:30pm

re: #968 ChargerGirl

It's a tough room, not a tea party. If you understand the question, then answer it, but spare me your mock indignation as I've repeatedly warned you you would be held to task for your opinion here. You are most certainly and obviously entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. If you're going to state your opinion here, prepare to defend it as it just might get questioned, shocking as that is to you.

975 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:28:15pm

re: #970 ChargerGirl

And islamists expect me to respect their beliefs, but I don't.

976 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:29:03pm

re: #966 Sharmuta

Charles has allowed creationists to stay, some he's shown the door. However- I tried to tell you that continuing to support creationism here will get you a butt chewing.

Additional friendly warning- Salamantis is insatiable on these threads- prepare to be schooled.

That is, if you can find the patience to read through his pompous bloviations. You can catch him talking through his hat fairly often, if he gets onto an area you're strong in. After that you know not to trust him in areas you're not so strong in.

977 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:30:01pm

re: #973 realwest

Ah he's good ok, but all the dude with the paddle hadda do was "false" swing and drop a short one on him!
I know, table tennis helped pay my way through college!

Spoil my rush...
Yeah, he opponents had to feed him, but still hitting a ball with nunchucks consistently is still impressive.

978 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:30:10pm

re: #953 ChargerGirl

Walter, trust me, they would not make my head hurt. I have likely read all of the links you are speaking of, since I consider myself quite open minded. I am not an idiot, stupid, or non-thinker. I do not mean to take on all of you in a debate. I saw the topic, kept on topic - unlike most of the other posters right now - and I've been basically called stupid and unthinking by people who don't know me. I'm sure we have much, much more we agree on than what we disagree on. I just wanted to make a point, not be attacked.

This is what is known as empirical evidence:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

More can be found here, where evolution has been observed in action, in a repeatable-at-will context, in a laboratory under controlled conditions:

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

Do you have anything even remotely approaching such empirical evidence for creationism? No, you don't. That's why evolution is empirical science, and creationism is religious belief.

979 BryanS  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:30:13pm

I have another Creationist theory. I think L Ron Hubbard was correct. Really it was lord Xenu who created life on this earth. My body thetan levals are through the roof, so I know I am right and am in touch with my spiritual side.

OK, now that I have laid out my theory, I would like to have this curriculum included in high school science classes.

980 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:30:59pm

re: #844 Irene NYC Well I do hope y'all take (took?) my advice about hot liquids, bed rest and lots of C and zinc!
Anyway the flu is just like a cold in some respects: if you let it run it's course it'll take two weeks to leave ya alone; if you treat it with the best that modern medicne can give you, it'll leave ya alone in about 14 day (h/t Mark Twain) - course, getting a flu shot woulda probably helped more! LOL!
{Ireen} I do hope you feel 100% by Sunday at the latest!

981 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:31:54pm

re: #847 Dianna
Good night {Dianna} sleep well!

982 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:33:09pm

re: #958 ChargerGirl

So are you saying I shouldn't be allowed to post here because I don't believe in evolution? I don't think that's what Charles had in mind with creating LGF.
I was a poster when registration first opened, so I've been around a long time. (different nic - recently came back to the LGF blog)

Feel free to post, but also be prepared to have your errors demonstrated.

983 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:33:22pm

re: #851 Lynn B.
Huh, when I went to look at the comment it was deleted but it never said poster banned.
Too bad, too.

984 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:34:39pm

re: #860 jaunte
Good night juante my friend - sleep well!

985 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:34:44pm

re: #972 Dar ul Harb

No, because I favor prioritizing the time available for aspects of science that are of more practical application, and I have little confidence that the public education system, as presently constituted, can do little more than relate the basic facts, if that.

Any curriculum is a question of priorities. Sure, it's "withholding" something to leave out set theory in math, for example, but I'd rather they get their algebra and geometry right. If you're going to be a mathematician, maybe we can get into that, in accelerated studies, if we have time or budget.

Sorry, I don't see the parallel there. But I'm a lawyer, not a scientist, Jim.

Seems to me, though, that without a basic foundation in evolution in high school, students are going to arrive at college with a decided disadvantage. I wouldn't want to handicap a kid that way. I don't understand why you would.

986 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:36:20pm

re: #983 realwest

Huh, when I went to look at the comment it was deleted but it never said poster banned.
Too bad, too.

Ok, maybe I did have one too many. ;-) Or maybe I was just confusing SJ with the Pizza dude. He definitely was banned.

987 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:37:07pm

re: #861 Tarkus289
Uh, who is George Nory ?

988 Lynn B.  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:38:12pm

re: #976 Moe Katz

Argggh! Do you have to do that?

Ok. I'm out of here. I should have been asleep an hour ago.

989 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:38:28pm

re: #868 Noam Sayin'
Hey , see ya my friend. Sleep well.

990 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:38:55pm

re: #987 realwest

Uh, who is George Nory ?

Host of Coast to Coast AM the late night conspiracy show on radio, Art Bell's replacement.

I find it more entertaining than most comedy shows.

991 stretch  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:40:24pm

yeah yeah, its all about those poor ignorant public school students being exposed to something that might confuse them. push the sex, sodomy, abortion, pornography, etc... but expect them to think a bit and be able to debate what they believe about science? May it never be!

992 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:43:32pm

re: #991 stretch

yeah yeah, its all about those poor ignorant public school students being exposed to something that might confuse them. push the sex, sodomy, abortion, pornography, etc... but expect them to think a bit and be able to debate what they believe about science? May it never be!

The issue is not students debating what they believe.

The issue is a group, the Discovery Institute, pushing a political agenda misusing matters of faith to do it.

993 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:43:32pm

Final post on KS and its battle with creationists.

"I think we're good for two years," said board member Janet Waugh, a Kansas City Democrat who supported the new standards. "Who knows what the election will hold in two years?"

Some scientists and science groups believed the board's latest action was significant because it turned back a subtle attack on evolution that encouraged schools to teach about an evolution "controversy," rather than mandating that creationism or intelligent design be taught.

Many Kansans harbor religious objections and other misgivings about evolution. The Intelligent Design Network presented petitions with almost 4,000 signatures, opposing the standards the board eventually adopted.

John Calvert, a retired attorney who helped found the group, accused the board of promoting atheism. And Greg Lassey, a retired Wichita-area biology teacher, said the new standards undermine families by "discrediting parents who reject materialism and the ethics and morals it fosters."

Creationists say that a lot...that teaching biology is an attack on parents who reject materialism. It's one of the stupidist things they say, but they repeat it over and over again, like they have found some brilliant new gotcha.

I have a master's in biochem, research specialty molecular genetics. Evolution is simply a description of how species changed over time ... as environments/habitats change over time, species either adapt and thrive or they don't adapt and they die out. That's it.

No sinister agenda to turn children against their parents, and certainly no attempt to glorify materialism. For God's sake, have you ever seen how paleontologists and (most) biologists dress? I've been out of the lab for many moons, and I still dress like crap. When you spend your life working with nasty chemicals/organisms, or digging around in the field, you really don't get terribly into materialism.


/ lol off to bed.

994 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:44:47pm

re: #976 Moe Katz

That is, if you can find the patience to read through his pompous bloviations. You can catch him talking through his hat fairly often, if he gets onto an area you're strong in. After that you know not to trust him in areas you're not so strong in.

You have so far pointed out, in many, many posts, two errors I have made; when I confused the four nucleic acids as members of the set of 22 basic amino acids, and when I stated that karma was a specifically Buddhist concept, when it is actually a vedic concept, which is wider. Both times, I immediately acknowledged my error.

Neither of those mistakes has anything whatsoever to do with the fact of evolution by means of random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection - a fact that I am quite certain you would readily acknowledge.

995 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:47:14pm

re: #993 funky chicken

jeez. unable to type at any speed, and have developed a handicap on using the quote feature.

definitely good night :-)

996 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:47:47pm
997 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:49:30pm

20 amino acids:

[Link: chemistry.about.com...]

after some sleep, I'd be happy to answer any questions about them :-)

998 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:49:40pm

re: #985 Lynn B.

Sorry, I don't see the parallel there. But I'm a lawyer, not a scientist, Jim.

Seems to me, though, that without a basic foundation in evolution in high school, students are going to arrive at college with a decided disadvantage. I wouldn't want to handicap a kid that way. I don't understand why you would.

Well, maybe I'll put it in lawyer terms, then. Teaching evolution is to biology like teaching comparative systems of law (or history of law) is to law. Sure it's interesting to know where all this stuff about the civil code and common law came from, but for the non-specialist (even for some of our elected officials!) I'd rather they have a good grasp of our constitutional system, separation of powers, federalism, etc.

Yes, it's not a precise analogy, maybe evolution is more like conflict of laws, in that biologists do use it as a tool, rather than it being entirely of historical interest. But there's a lot of biology to learn besides evolution, important though it is to a working biologist as a central organizing theory.

That better? My concern is making it so the "1B" and "2B" biologists will have the foundations for learning about evolution when its presented. Everyone else may find it interesting to know that "conflict of law" is a set of rules lawyers use to resolve which law gets applied when there's some overlap, but there's much more about the law that the ordinary person would do well to know.

999 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:51:06pm

re: #882 ChargerGirl
Ah well see as a lawyer for 38 years - 10 of them spent as a professor of law, I can tell you that when one side persists in believing that carbon dating is a fraud, that Noah brought a pair of T-Rex's on the Ark with him, and that basically God created the heavens and the Earth in six days or six years or six thousand years or 10,000 years, I'm trained enough to examine the evidence. And the evidence is indisputable that there was at least ONE ICE AGE, that Carbon Dating is a reliable means of arriving at the age of fossills many of which are millions of years old, then your side of the equation doesn't make any sense logically. It may make sense to you as a matter of faith - nothing at all wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, but it is faith, DEMONSTRABLY not sceince and therefore ought not to be taught in public or any other taxpayer assisted schools.
As a lawyer I would like to think that you understand that.

1000 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:51:59pm

TAMIFLU WORKS if taken in first 72 hours. If you have influenza. don't suffer ... tamiflu will have you feeling 90% + better in a day.

1001 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:53:35pm

re: #996 ploome hineni

well, they are spreading the word. the Gospelso to speak

thing is, with Christianity,, there is no 'or else'...like there is with Islam

A proper presentation of Christianity there is. And yes I fault my fellow Christians for presenting a "fire insurance" gospel, "believe in God or burn in hell."

Christianity at it's root is about liberty. We each having the choice to choose God or not to.

In the Genesis account God, created Adam and Eve, but he did not make the believe he gave them a choice.

Each person has the choice, and takes the responsibility for any eternal consequences there may be.

1002 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:54:28pm

re: #999 realwest

It may make sense to you as a matter of faith - nothing at all wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, but it is faith, DEMONSTRABLY not sceince and therefore ought not to be taught in public or any other taxpayer assisted schools.
As a lawyer I would like to think that you understand that.

realwest - thank you for presenting an argument and not demeaning me. I appreciate that. And I certainly do understand your premise, and, surprisingly, I don't disagree with it. I just don't like being ridiculed for my beliefs.

1003 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:54:41pm
1004 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:54:43pm

re: #912 Walter L. Newton
Um, actually no Walter - a good lawyers thinking skills are extremely analytical - much as is that of a scientist.

1005 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:55:57pm
1006 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:56:14pm

re: #1002 ChargerGirl

realwest - thank you for presenting an argument and not demeaning me. I appreciate that. And I certainly do understand your premise, and, surprisingly, I don't disagree with it. I just don't like being ridiculed for my beliefs.

No one in America has the right not to be offended, although leftists and Islamofascists are working on it...;~)

1007 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:57:20pm

re: #1004 realwest

Um, actually no Walter - a good lawyers thinking skills are extremely analytical - much as is that of a scientist.

And some of us have been both. ;)

1008 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:57:26pm

re: #1006 Salamantis

No one in America has the right not to be offended, although leftists and Islamofascists are working on it...;~)

So true, my friend. Neither of which I am.

1009 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:57:56pm
1010 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:57:58pm

re: #1003 Hateful Hater

How do you know we weren't created by Aliens or came from a different planet?

That hypothesis just kicks the evolutionary can down the road, but not off it. Those aliens would have had to evolve somewhere, and that life from another planet would have had to evolve there.

1011 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:58:11pm

re: #998 Dar ul Harb

YES!

the other fallacy presented by Creationists is that middle and high school students must be allowed to "debate" evolution. Uh, the subject is about one week out of a year biology course. And 9th/10th graders don't know enough about biology/geology/palentology to debate anything.

The LAST THING that we should allow in our science classrooms is days upon days, stretching to weeks of ignorant bloviating, er, debating.

1012 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:58:19pm

Good night, professors.

1013 Aye Pod  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 10:58:21pm

re: #1003 Hateful Hater

How do you know we weren't created by Aliens or came from a different planet?

Or that there isn't a teapot orbting jupiter, for that matter? Or a tiny figurine of Elvis in the centre of the moon?

We need positive evidence bfore taking any of these 'theories' seriously. And there happens to not be any, so we don't.

1014 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:00:13pm

re: #1013 Jimmah

Or that there isn't a teapot orbting jupiter, for that matter? Or a tiny figurine of Elvis in the centre of the moon?

We need positive evidence bfore taking any of these 'theories' seriously. And there happens to not be any, so we don't.

Well, whoever did it sure has a sense of humor: look at tropical fish and the Chargers...yipes! Two examples, both of which make you say "what in the world are they doing?" ;-)

1015 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:00:23pm

re: #1003 Hateful Hater

I haven't discussed my thoughts on origins. I've been discussing evolution and it's veracity, so I fail to see the relevance of your question other than towards obfuscation.

1016 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:00:59pm
1017 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:01:49pm

re: #1016 Hateful Hater

Wow! Are you for real?

1018 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:01:52pm

It's a cookbook!

1019 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:02:00pm

re: #922 Moe Katz
Uh "Please don't consider yourself smarter than I am just because we believe differently. That is not what LGF is all about."
It is only all about if we all resort to insult and name calling as opposed to rational debate. No I don't think she should have been called "honey" or unthinking fool, but needed to be shown WHY faith is what drives the creationist or ID pov, not science.

And IF WE COULD ALL RESIST THE URGE TO OVERSIMPLIFY AND RESORT TO AD HOMONYM ATTACKS, THEN INDEED THAT IS WHAT LGF IS ALL ABOUT.

1020 Aye Pod  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:04:47pm
1021 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:05:22pm

re: #1019 realwest

And IF WE COULD ALL RESIST THE URGE TO OVERSIMPLIFY AND RESORT TO AD HOMONYM ATTACKS, THEN INDEED THAT IS WHAT LGF IS ALL ABOUT.

That must be why Mandy always gets dinged up when she says "go piss up a rope".

1022 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:05:54pm
1023 jcm  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:06:08pm

Remember folks...

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!

Goodnight all.

1024 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:07:50pm

re: #1016 Hateful Hater

Maybe the Aliens were as they were. Why haven't humans change in the last couple of thousand years. But yet we come from Monkeys. That's a silly theory. The most likely explanation is that an Alien Race created us. They probably never evolved. They may have been created in turn or are eternal. Elohim means they who are eternal. I believe humanity comes from Aliens and another world.

You'd have to explain not only why we share almost 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, but also why we share thousands of different artifactual retroviral sequences with them, possessing the exact same degree of genetic degradation, and in precisely the same locations on our 3 billion base pair genomes. The chances of that happening independently - that is, of humans and great apes contracting all of those thousands of retroviral infections at the same times, and having them, spliced into the identical positions in our vast respective genomes, is about the same odds that you would roll boxcars 1200 times in a row at a Las Vegas casino, while winning every lottery for the rest of your life while buying only a single ticket in each one.

But it all makes eminent statistical sense if humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from a common shared ancestor.

1025 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:08:29pm

re: #1021 Sharmuta

I've always enjoyed your writing so I peaked at your karma, and I must say good work 43,526. Second I believe only to Mr. Johnson

1026 Aye Pod  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:08:42pm

re: #1014 ChargerGirl

Well, if you look at the flatfish for example you'd have to conclude tht if it was a 'who' that w3as responsible for the design, it would have to have a pretty f-ed up sense of humour. Or maybe just bad at dealing with deadlines or something.

btw 'chargers' - football team?

1027 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:09:28pm

re: #1026 Jimmah

btw 'chargers' - football team?

At times...

1028 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:10:21pm

re: #931 Lynn B.
Well,

you'd probably be amazed to see how many have changed their positions as they've followed the links and the information provided here over the past several months. Give it a try.

Only works when someone is drawn into the discussion and many people - for whatever reason - seem to think that if someone thinks differently they they do, then that other person should be mocked and subjected to personal attacks and a number of those people make such attacks in groups.
One or two or even three rational replies ought to be sufficient to draw someone out and let them "see the light" whereas someone who is repeatedly attacked by a large number of people on the same thread, is apt to get defensive and no longer participate in the discussion at all.
And THAT is definitely not the LGF way.

1029 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:10:24pm
1030 ChargerGirl  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:11:20pm

re: #1029 ploome hineni

cool

salamantic, hateful hater, and jimmah

we need a new blog site for these 3

Maybe one will evolve. Bwahahaaa

1031 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:12:04pm

re: #933 Walter L. Newton
Yikes, well I reckon y'all should be going to sleep then Walter! Otherwise you're gonna be all "Bah Humbug" this season! LOL!

1032 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:13:58pm

re: #1029 ploome hineni

cool

salamantic, hateful hater, and jimmah

we need a new blog site for these 3

You still making fun of people who use big words, ploome?

And no, hh does not belong in the same set with jimmah and me, since we tend to agree about evolution and he's so far out in left field they haven't mown the grass out there.

When you morph into Charles, you can disinvite me. Until them, you will have to do as I do, which is suffer your annoying presence.

1033 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:15:13pm

re: #1025 Neo Con since 9-11

Thanks- I'm a little sheepish about that.

1034 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:16:39pm

re: #697 Killian Bundy

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

Reality is merely the dreams of the infinite, neato.

1035 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:25:57pm

re: #1006 Salamantis
Sal, I would humbly submit to you that there is a difference between being offended and being ridiculed.
I see not only no need for folks (and I'm NOT picking you out) to simply bang the drums as opposed to try to discuss and DISAGREE, but I do see a difference between rejecting someone's opinion or statements and then adding thereto the ad homonym attacks along with it.

1036 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:26:54pm

re: #1007 Dar ul Harb
Show off!
;')

1037 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:26:54pm

re: #1034 FurryOldGuyJeans

Reality is merely the dreams of the infinite, neato.

What is interesting is that these calculations also provided empirical support for Einstein's mass-energy conversion equation: e=mc2.

1038 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:28:55pm

re: #1035 realwest

Sal, I would humbly submit to you that there is a difference between being offended and being ridiculed.
I see not only no need for folks (and I'm NOT picking you out) to simply bang the drums as opposed to try to discuss and DISAGREE, but I do see a difference between rejecting someone's opinion or statements and then adding thereto the ad homonym attacks along with it.

True enough. But you will also have to admit that this list contains professional umbrage-takers, when none was given.

1039 SpaceJesus  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:29:13pm

Chargergirl,


As a law student I'm curious if the whole, "why are you being so mean to me?" distraction flies in front of judges when you know you're losing a case.

1040 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:32:15pm

re: #1039 spacesuits

As a law student

/God help our profession, may the bar exam protect us

1041 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:34:09pm

re: #1028 realwest

Well,

Only works when someone is drawn into the discussion and many people - for whatever reason - seem to think that if someone thinks differently they they do, then that other person should be mocked and subjected to personal attacks and a number of those people make such attacks in groups.
One or two or even three rational replies ought to be sufficient to draw someone out and let them "see the light" whereas someone who is repeatedly attacked by a large number of people on the same thread, is apt to get defensive and no longer participate in the discussion at all.
And THAT is definitely not the LGF way.

Fine thoughts, Realwest. But this little gang loves swarming people and bullying them as a big tag team, burying them under masses of dings and updinging each other. It's real fun for them, and they don't give a hoot for the victims. Not one of them is a goddamn scientist, either. In fact, they've driven a couple of real scientists away from the forum.

1042 Aye Pod  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:37:20pm

re: #1029 ploome hineni

Awa an' bile yer heid.

1043 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:37:35pm

re: #1021 Sharmuta
I have no idea why she gets dinged up for that, other that in most of the times she uses it, it's an appopriate resonse to somone who's being insulting and demeaning.
And, frankly, while I like Mandy a lot, she doesn't really get involved in complicate debates and rather prefers shorter answers which - even if they are correct - don't necessarily shed any light on a particular topic.
And yes indeed I have given Mandy many updings over the years and I've done the same with you - but for different reasons (usually); I find you more thought provoking, frankly and Mandy more amusing and witty.
It's really just a question of style, that's all.
And it's obvious from my "karma" that folks out here don't find me particularly witty or wise. Such is life.

1044 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:37:50pm

My replies on this thread have not been ad hominem; they have addressed substantial issues, evidence, distinctions, and definitions. Except when the replies were to posts that themselves were of an ad hominem nature, in which case I replied in kind.

1045 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:40:26pm

re: #1038 Salamantis Well I don't know if I'd call them professional umbrage takers, but definitely umbrage takers!

1046 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:43:36pm

No. of comments posted: 5,001
Karma: 7,395

Apparently, I'm not doing egregiously bad...;~)

1047 Aye Pod  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:44:08pm

I'm outro. G'nite folks :)

1048 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:45:59pm

re: #1046 Salamantis

No. of comments posted: 5,001
Karma: 7,395

Apparently, I'm not doing egregiously bad...;~)

/maybe Dick Morris will suck your toes as a reward

1049 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:48:48pm

re: #1048 Killian Bundy

/maybe Dick Morris will suck your toes as a reward

It might prove fatal. My toejam is so caustically odiferous that it burns holes in my socks.

1050 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:50:47pm

re: #1041 Moe Katz
Moe, I'm not denying that there are some folks out here who sorta cheer and ding each other on. And some of them are very popular out here as well. But THEY aren't LGF - Charles is. That some one has a gazillion as a karma figure just means that they have either made an incredible amount of insightful and or witty comments or that the same large group of people feel that way and always ding them up.
Don't get caught up in any idea of group think out here - seriously.

1051 realwest  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:51:36pm

Well all y'all it's really LATE and I gotta get some sleep.
I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see all of you down the road!

Good night, all.

1052 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:53:48pm

re: #1051 realwest

Well all y'all it's really LATE and I gotta get some sleep.
I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see all of you down the road!

Good night, all.

Goodnight, Realwest, take care.

1053 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:54:45pm

re: #1037 Salamantis

What is interesting is that these calculations also provided empirical support for Einstein's mass-energy conversion equation: e=mc2.

That is what I said, you know ;)

1054 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:55:35pm

re: #1050 realwest

Moe, I'm not denying that there are some folks out here who sorta cheer and ding each other on. And some of them are very popular out here as well. But THEY aren't LGF - Charles is. That some one has a gazillion as a karma figure just means that they have either made an incredible amount of insightful and or witty comments or that the same large group of people feel that way and always ding them up.
Don't get caught up in any idea of group think out here - seriously.

Yes, it's a clique. It's like they're playing basketball.

1055 Killian Bundy  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:57:09pm

re: #1054 Moe Katz

Yes, it's a clique. It's like they're playing basketball.

/the upding circle

1056 Moe Katz  Fri, Nov 21, 2008 11:58:59pm

re: #1055 Killian Bundy

/the upding circle

Passing back and forth, slam dunking.

1057 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:00:00am

re: #1050 realwest

You just blowing sour grapes since you are not higher in the popular karma scale? ;)

Frankly I am supremely indifferent to the entire idea of this clique-ish rate comments stuff. + or -, I will say what I want as long as it is within the guidelines of acceptable with the standards Charles has put forth.

1058 Boolz  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:01:13am

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ”

I could care less whether schools teach evolution, creationism, calculus, witchcraft or anything else. I'm sure the teachers unions will make sure whatever it is will be taught wrong anyhow.

What I do care about, and what rarely gets talked about while the creationist passionately insists to the evolutionist that God exists and the evolutionist just as passionately insists to the creationist that God can't be proven to exist, is the subject of constructive versus interpretive justices.

I THOUGHT we were all, or mostly anyway, a bunch of constructionists on this side of the political aisle. I THOUGHT we were FOR judges who insist the Constitution says...well, what it says; and I thought we were AGAINST judges who interpreted the Constitution to mean...well, whatever the Hell they want it to mean.

So I have to admit, I'm a little CONFUSED and would like a little clarification from some of you CLAIMING to be in the constructionist camp and yet insist on this thing called Separation of Church and State. Could you please re-read the first paragraph above (for those of you who don't know, it's the First Amendment) and tell me where exactly you see the words "Church and State"? Where, exactly, does it say that it's forbidden for prayer to be uttered in school, or for religious monuments to be placed on public property? Where does it say, exactly, that it's the Supreme Courts or ANY federal courts business to strike down, deny, forbid ANY state and local statute or policy that delves into religious matters?

Am I missing something here, or does the Constitution specifically mention Congress, AND NOBODY ELSE, and did the Supreme Court just interpret out of the blue this Church and State thing for the rest of us? If you claim you're a constructionist, do you agree with this interpretation?

I guess what I'm really asking is which is more important to you: keeping religion out of school, or adhering to a very specifically written Supreme Law of the Land? Because, quite frankly, I think the religious social conservatives have very legitimate grievances in this matter. For those of you afraid of how the social conservative will restrict your freedoms and your rights, it's been their districts, their schools, their public squares that have been attacked through the courts and subject to interpretive judges. It's been their popular will thwarted time after time by the courts, not yours.

I've rambled enough for this evening but I'd like to say one more thing: I'd like to thank Charles for two things. One, I really like this format, I've read for far longer than I've posted and I appreciate the time and effort you've made to set this up for all of us to vent on. Second, as a Texan I'm very grateful for you not wanting us embarrassed by our board of education, but please don't worry...trudging through both the final days of Bush and the Dallas Cowboy football season, a little more embarrassment ain't gonna kill us.

1059 Moe Katz  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:01:20am

re: #1057 FurryOldGuyJeans

You just blowing sour grapes since you are not higher in the popular karma scale? ;)

Frankly I am supremely indifferent to the entire idea of this clique-ish rate comments stuff. + or -, I will say what I want as long as it is within the guidelines of acceptable with the standards Charles has put forth.

Actually, Realwest was more concerned with the way they crush newcomers who don't express the right views. Which is also how I came into conflict with them many moons ago.

1060 Salamantis  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:02:18am

I was saying the things I've been saying, in the way I have been saying them, long before the karma ratings appeared. Their presence will not affect me any more than their absence did.

1061 Killian Bundy  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:04:21am

re: #1060 Salamantis

I was saying the things I've been saying, in the way I have been saying them, long before the karma ratings appeared. Their presence will not affect me any more than their absence did.

/comment awaiting the inevitable Sharmuta upding

1062 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:04:47am

re: #1059 Moe Katz

Actually, Realwest was more concerned with the way they crush newcomers who don't express the right views. Which is also how I came into conflict with them many moons ago.

Being serious now.

I too am more than a trifle concerned that the group-think that prevails at times is more than a little off-putting to so many people, new and old, that are not as prolific in their postings as our regular blabber-mouths.

Sarcastic wise-ass mode: ON ;)

1063 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:06:00am

re: #1060 Salamantis

I was saying the things I've been saying, in the way I have been saying them, long before the karma ratings appeared. Their presence will not affect me any more than their absence did.

OOoh, your supreme indifference is paralleling mine. ;)

1064 Salamantis  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:06:05am

re: #1058 Boolz

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

Excerpt:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

1065 Moe Katz  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:06:25am

re: #1062 FurryOldGuyJeans

Being serious now.

I too am more than a trifle concerned that the group-think that prevails at times is more than a little off-putting to so many people, new and old, that are not as prolific in their postings as our regular blabber-mouths.

Sarcastic wise-ass mode: ON ;)

I suspected you were kidding about the jealousy stuff. The schoolyard bullying thing sucks.

1066 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:09:50am

re: #1065 Moe Katz

I suspected you were kidding about the jealousy stuff. The schoolyard bullying thing sucks.

Just because someone grows older does not necessarily mean that they gain wisdom or maturity.

[My smilie ;) is my sarcasm mark for the uninitiated.]

1067 Salamantis  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:12:41am

What the hell is it doing being in the mid 30's in Florida before Thanksgiving? Is Al Gore visiting?

1068 Neo Con since 9-11  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:35:07am

Come on upstairs folks.Epic troll roast going on

1069 Fried Spam  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:36:27am

re: #1062 FurryOldGuyJeans

... the group-think that prevails at times is more than a little off-putting to so many people, new and old...

yes.

1070 Moe Katz  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 1:07:17am

re: #1069 Fried Spam

yes.

Group-think maintained by the worst kind of social intimidation.

1071 Roger  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 4:47:05am

1041 Moe Katz 11/21/08 11:34:09 pm reply quote -3

%P%re: #1028 realwest

%P% Well,

%P% Only works when someone is drawn into the discussion and many %P%people - for whatever reason - seem to think that if someone thinks %P%differently they they do, then that other person should be mocked and %P%subjected to personal attacks and a number of those people make such %P%attacks in groups.
%P% One or two or even three rational replies ought to be sufficient to draw %P%someone out and let them "see the light" whereas someone who is %P%repeatedly attacked by a large number of people on the same thread, is %P%apt to get defensive and no longer participate in the discussion at all.
%P% And THAT is definitely not the LGF way.

Fine thoughts, Realwest. But this little gang loves swarming people and bullying them as a big tag team, burying them under masses of dings and updinging each other. It's real fun for them, and they don't give a hoot for the victims. Not one of them is a goddamn scientist, either. In fact, they've driven a couple of real scientists away from the forum.
...
True

1072 Bill Dalasio  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 5:25:01am

re: #145 theparson

I, too, am a "fundamentalist Christian" which really means that I hold to the fundamental truths of Christianity, the generally accepted truths. It is, unfortunately, a phrase which has been hijacked by the MSM and given a bad connotation. Most of us understand when that phrase is used the speaker is talking about those who have extreme political agendas but, it is still somewhat irritating.

It's often struck me that, quite often, the speaker themselves bring a political agenda when they use the phrase. I'm not a particularly religious man myself. The last church service I went to was my wedding, some four years ago. And that was a Unitarian service. But, I think there are some people bound and determined to cast all religious conservatives as borderline theocrats. The basic technique is to smear those who disagree with them to avoid responding to their arguments. I don't like seeing religious conservatives equated with the sort of loons trying to palm off this abrogation of science.

1073 Perplexed  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 6:25:40am

Embarrassing Texas? Bwahahahahahahahaha. Pretty hard to do given some of the more colorful characters who live there. Texas has the ignore it and move on while not talking about it down to a fine art.

1074 Nemesis6  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 6:51:31am

This is intelligent design all over again; No no, we don't wanna teach X, we just wanna enlighten people as to the errors with Y, and then the wedge starts going deeper and deeper.

1075 Fearless Fred  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 6:58:55am
" ... how the Texas Board of Education had nominated three creationists to the six member Texas Science Standards Review Panel. What's more, two of those creationists aren't even from Texas, and have published a textbook that could potentially be adopted by the school system (no conflict of interest there).

Well, the way the panel was chosen was that they had to each be nominated by two BoE members. The six members who nominated the creationists to the panel were Cynthia Dunbar and David Bradley (nominated Meyer), Barbara Cargill and Ken Mercer (nominated Seelke), and Gail Lowe and Terri Leo (nominated Garner). (more info at Texas Citizens for Science)

Creationist BoE members up for reelection included David Bradley and Gail Lowe (both running against Democratic challengers), and Terri Leo, Barbara Cargill, and Patricia Hardy (running against third party challengers). The results are in, and all five were re-elected.

On the plus side, two rational board members, Mary Helen Berlanga and Mavis Knight, both up against Republican challengers, were also re-elected. So, at least the creationists didn't gain any power." ~~The blog for jefflewis.net


Who cares? I mean literally - who can? How many Texans can spend time studying what these self-interested bureaucrats are battling over in the People's Republic of Austinistan? Isn't this an argument for closer-to-home control? --- vouchers!? My daughter's in a Catholic school --- she gets great science there. Why do I care what these Austinistanian government-lovers think about their texts? I say dismantle the corrupt government schrool-system and give us our tax money back --- and who cares if God is back in the classroom? Schools were sure better when He was there and the bureaucrats were not ... hmm, I think we had pretty good science back then too.

1076 Fearless Fred  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 7:07:33am

re: #9 MandyMannersre: #8 Moe Katz

This editorial must be in one of the more liberal Texas papers.

The name of this newspaper is the 'People's Republic of Austin Un-American Spaceman' ... they're going broke (again -- wonder why?) and are considering amending the name to ... 'Spaceperson'. That should make it all better. ///

1077 Emphasis  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 8:08:49am

re: #342 Salamantis

1078 Scorch  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 8:18:45am

re: #1076 Fearless Fred

re: #8 Moe Katz


The name of this newspaper is the 'People's Republic of Austin Un-American Spaceman' ... they're going broke (again -- wonder why?) and are considering amending the name to ... 'Spaceperson'. That should make it all better. ///

Your exactly right Fearless. Being a resident of Texas almost all my life the Austin American Statesman is an extremely liberal rag and I would not give it credence anymore than I would some of Rush Limbaughs rantings. I looked at this thread last night and started to see the normal pattern of dinging down of those who expressed their opinions. What is so disturbing about this pattern is the majority of people believe in evolution and also that there is a creator but as discussions go forward it goes from being a discussion of ID being taught in science classes to one of attacking those who believe in a creator. It seems some in here cannot accept ones right to believe in a creator even though they do believe in evolution. Just common sense unless one never gets out of the house, things evolve. I am also one who does not believe in the teaching of ID in science class but I do believe in a creator. Salute to all of you who are not afraid to speak of your beliefs, even in the face of sometimes harsh criticism.

1079 mean Gene  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 8:19:03am

In British schools it took an influx on Muslim students to get that teaching out of the schools at long last.
(Oh, wait! That was EVOLUTION the Brits removed from their schools!)
Anyway.
Might looks like it will make right in the long haul.
Who is the strongest?
The ''Fittest?"
That's who gets to set the standard whether here in Texas or there in the UK.
Isn't that the way it SHOULD be?
It is a form of natural selection.
Eventually we will all be taught whatever our thug-in-cheif says to teach us.
At least - for now - debate about what it should be is allowed ... here.

1080 Salamantis  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 9:22:03am

re: #1079 mean Gene

In British schools it took an influx on Muslim students to get that teaching out of the schools at long last.
(Oh, wait! That was EVOLUTION the Brits removed from their schools!)
Anyway.
Might looks like it will make right in the long haul.
Who is the strongest?
The ''Fittest?"
That's who gets to set the standard whether here in Texas or there in the UK.
Isn't that the way it SHOULD be?
It is a form of natural selection.
Eventually we will all be taught whatever our thug-in-cheif says to teach us.
At least - for now - debate about what it should be is allowed ... here.

Well, that would apparently please the Disco Institute doofuses, since they have been documented on this site as palling around with Islamocreationists such as Harun Yahya. I wonder if Texans are aware of this Islamic connection with the Disco Dewde authors of that deceptive textbook they're attempting to foist off there, who are also members of their school text selection committee?

Considering it...

Considering it...

Naah!

1081 Mr Secul  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 9:22:32am

re: #37 MandyManners

Who said it is required?

It should be required just as it should be required to mention electrons and the Periodic Table in Chemistry.

1082 Moe Katz  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 11:10:27am

re: #1070 Moe Katz

Group-think maintained by the worst kind of social intimidation.

Exactly, Moe. The whole story in a nutshell.

1083 Salamantis  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:51:50pm

re: #1082 Moe Katz

re: #1070 Moe Katz

Group-think maintained by the worst kind of social intimidation.

Exactly, Moe. The whole story in a nutshell.

Sal: Anyone who self-servingly answers his own post just so he can compliment and agree with himself richly merits and deserves my downding. Such shameless self-backpatting cannot help but to cause gorges to rise.

1084 SpaceJesus  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:54:06pm

re: #1040 Killian Bundy

/God help our profession, may the bar exam protect us

when you went to law school at university of Phoenix online, did they mandate that you being all of your sentences with slashes?

1085 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:54:15pm
1086 Moe Katz  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 12:57:21pm

re: #1084 spacejesus

when you went to law school at university of Phoenix online, did they mandate that you being all of your sentences with slashes?

The slash in LGF style indicates a kind of aside. Not sure about the origin of it; it may have begun with sarcasm tags.

1087 Spiny Norman  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 1:09:38pm

re: #1086 Moe Katz

The slash in LGF style indicates a kind of aside. Not sure about the origin of it; it may have begun with sarcasm tags.

The forward slash "/" is ferring to HTML "close tag" like < / tag >. In this case, it is the longing-running Internet gag, "sarcasm off": < / sarc >.

1088 Spiny Norman  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 1:10:03pm

*referring to*

1089 Spiny Norman  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 1:11:11pm

*long-running*

.
/why yesh, barkeep, I'd like another beer

1090 RedSoxNation  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 1:18:57pm

I was watching the show "Davey and Goliath" today with my little daughter. It has been a long time since I have seen this classic claymation show about a boy and his dog. I was struck by how the show opens with Davey setting off a rocket, a demonstration which illustrates that the show's creators were at ease with having Davey show interest in scientific experiments at the same time he learns about being a good Christian. Why must these anti-evolution people force people to choose between God and science?

1091 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 2:30:02pm

re: #1090 RedSoxNation

I was watching the show "Davey and Goliath" today with my little daughter. It has been a long time since I have seen this classic claymation show about a boy and his dog. I was struck by how the show opens with Davey setting off a rocket, a demonstration which illustrates that the show's creators were at ease with having Davey show interest in scientific experiments at the same time he learns about being a good Christian. Why must these anti-evolution people force people to choose between God and science?

Great question! I went to Catholic elementary and high school, and had great science teachers (including biology teachers) who never bad-mouthed Charles Darwin or preached creationism.

1092 Mr Secul  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 2:32:31pm

re: #493 Dar ul Harb
I'm not arguing for "teaching the controversy," because there is no serious scientific controversy. I'm just questioning whether teaching more than a bare mention of evolution, or any evolution at all, is a good use of the time in high school science class, when there's a lot more of biology that has deeper policy implications, and more practical benefit, that should be taught.

You must be joking. Evolutionary theory is what ties it all together.

Why are most of the marsupials in South America and Australia?

Why do cave fish and naked mole rats have eyes covered in skin?

Why can some different species of cat interbreed? Why are there types of animals? Why do they come in groups?

Why do human embryos have 2 chambered hearts like fish? Why do they have yolk sacs when they don't come from eggs?

Why do all vertebrates look so similar at the pharyngula stage?

What's with sickle cell anemia?

Why can genetic defects in nematodes pharynges be cured by gene transplants from fly or mice heart cells?

Why do species change over time?

How do species form?

Why do lions kill all the cubs in a pride when they oust the previous males? Why do the females let them? Why do they come on heat the next day?

Why do animals compete for sex? Why does it actually matter who breeds as long as children are produced each generation?

How does something as complex as a bacterial flagellum exist?

Why weren't there humans on Earth from day one? Why did fish come first, then amphibians, then reptiles and synapsids, then mammals? Why didn't they all just happen at the same time?

How can animals be so finely tuned to their environments?

Why are some features of some animal 'designs' so wonky? Who would design an animal like that?

Most of the questions that keen young minds might ask in a biology class are answered by evolutionary theory.

That's why it must be taught in a science class, especially to the young and eager. It excites interest and gives them a tool to help them understand so much of the natural world.

1093 Mr Secul  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 2:40:51pm

re: #1079 mean Gene

In British schools it took an influx on Muslim students to get that teaching out of the schools at long last.
(Oh, wait! That was EVOLUTION the Brits removed from their schools!)
here.

When did that happen? Do you have a link?

1094 realburke  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 3:30:37pm

re: #1079 mean Gene

In British schools it took an influx on Muslim students to get that teaching out of the schools at long last.
(Oh, wait! That was EVOLUTION the Brits removed from their schools!)
Anyway.
Might looks like it will make right in the long haul.
Who is the strongest?
The ''Fittest?"
That's who gets to set the standard whether here in Texas or there in the UK.
Isn't that the way it SHOULD be?
It is a form of natural selection.
Eventually we will all be taught whatever our thug-in-cheif says to teach us.
At least - for now - debate about what it should be is allowed ... here.

Same's threatening to happen in Holland. ID and evolution was one of the subjects in a discussion between fundamental christians and muslim organizations which took place recently to discover common religious values and the possible social influence -read: political influence- these common values could have in society.
/ Nice prospect.

1095 Scorch  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 1:58:46am

ROFL...this is a real hoot now.

1096 Austin Conservative  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 6:53:31am

This is fine with me, as long as they stop teaching about global warming and they stop hiring illegal aliens and giving them fake social security cards.

Those items are more of an embarrassment than this anti-darwinism.

1097 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 8:05:25am

re: #1096 Austin Conservative

So- would this be fine with you when the islamists use it as justification to teach islamic creationism? Will this be fine with you when history teachers decide they can "teach the controversy" about the Holocaust and allow for Holocaust denial in class? What about other revisionist history? Will this be fine with you when other religions demand their creationism story be taught? How much time in science class should be devoted to teaching creationist myths of all other religions? Is that really science? Or would it be better to discuss these things in a philosophy class, or comparative religions class?

The problem is ID is not science- period. And worse is it's a slippery slope that will allow our education system to get worse, not better. If you're "fine" with your kids learning this, that's great- do it at home or in church, but don't force this on other people's kids who might just see it differently than you.

1098 Fearless Fred  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 9:28:32am

re: #1097 Sharmuta

So- would this be fine with you when the islamists use it as justification to teach islamic creationism? Will this be fine with you when history teachers decide they can "teach the controversy" about the Holocaust and allow for Holocaust denial in class? What about other revisionist history? Will this be fine with you when other religions demand their creationism story be taught? How much time in science class should be devoted to teaching creationist myths of all other religions? Is that really science? Or would it be better to discuss these things in a philosophy class, or comparative religions class?

The problem is ID is not science- period. And worse is it's a slippery slope that will allow our education system to get worse, not better. If you're "fine" with your kids learning this, that's great- do it at home or in church, but don't force this on other people's kids who might just see it differently than you.

She's gotta great point though Shar ... the teaching of 'global warming' is absolutely religion. There's no science there ... well - what little there is is terrible. That's first hand knowledge --- I know my daughter's teachers and texts -- it's completely hilarious. We've switched to a Catholic schrool where it's only moderately better.

1099 Fearless Fred  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 9:35:42am
Nature is poorly designed—with oddities such as blind spots built into the human eye and an excess of teeth jammed into our jaws. Parasites are sadists. Predators are cruel. Natural selection can explain the ruthlessness of nature, Ayala argues, and remove the “evil”—requiring an intentional act of free will—from the living world. “Darwin solved the problem,” Ayala concludes. He refers to science-savvy Christian theologians who present a God that is continuously engaged in the creative process through undirected natural selection. By addressing religious people on their own terms, Ayala aims to offer a better answer than intelligent design or creationism.


. . . At first, he recalls, his scientific colleagues were wary and took the position that researchers should not engage in religious discussions.

1100 Fearless Fred  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 9:38:33am

re: #1091 Charles

Great question! I went to Catholic elementary and high school, and had great science teachers (including biology teachers) who never bad-mouthed Charles Darwin or preached creationism.

The Christian Man's Evolution: How Darwinism and Faith Can Coexist
[Link: www.sciam.com...]

1101 Fearless Fred  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 10:11:26am

re: #1075 Fearless Fred

Who cares? I mean literally - who can? How many Texans can spend time studying what these self-interested bureaucrats are battling over in the People's Republic of Austinistan? Isn't this an argument for closer-to-home control? --- vouchers!? My daughter's in a Catholic school --- she gets great science there. Why do I care what these Austinistanian government-lovers think about their texts? I say dismantle the corrupt government schrool-system and give us our tax money back --- and who cares if God is back in the classroom? Schools were sure better when He was there and the bureaucrats were not ... hmm, I think we had pretty good science back then too.

Maybe you downdingers missed my point --- In a big giant government school system like we have here in Texas you are absolutely going to continue to get this kind of gross and corrupt silliness. That's the nature of big government. Public education hasn't enough competition. It isn't efficient or effective. Despite the silliness of the school board's activities this week, average Texans are mostly unaware of it all. That's a fact. This story is already dead (as news). Really, it was never a news 'story' at all --- it was just a headline for entertainment --- mostly to mock Christians generally. Even here in Texas we are now very much a secularized society, and it has become generally popular to poke fun at Christians. The injection of anti-scientific ideas into the science classroom is already rampant completely apart from this creationist stuff. I just don't see why this wouldn't be a great opportunity to discuss the fact that Charles' and my daughter each got better treatment outside these big government systems ... and interestingly -- that better treatment coming from Catholic operated and directed systems.
What did I say to get downdinged?

1102 Fearless Fred  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 10:55:13am

Here's the type story the Un-American Spaceman can't produce ... real journalism --
Evolution's Critics Shift Tactics With Schools
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

I admit I don't know yet the motive beneath the motive of these 'conservative' Christians ... (I don't think 'conservative' is at all the right descriptive either ... I'm an ultra hard-right - extreme - conservative -- a radical (classical) liberal - like Milton Friedman -- and I am also a traditional and conservative Christian --- and I do not know, relate to, or understand these weird anti-science anti-evolution types. I wonder if they are just scared ... scared of losing their religion ...? I betcha beatin' up on 'em is just gonna encourage them to redouble their efforts.

1103 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 23, 2008 12:40:00pm

re: #1098 Fearless Fred

You don't help correct poor science (GW) by infusing science education with pseudo-science. If we want the global warming issue to scientifically work out correctly, then we need good science, real science, to be taught to our kids.

1104 Yashmak  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:34am

re: #1096 Austin Conservative

This is fine with me, as long as they stop teaching about global warming and they stop hiring illegal aliens and giving them fake social security cards.

Those items are more of an embarrassment than this anti-darwinism.

Well, I'll agree about the illegal aliens part, but there's plenty of scientific evidence that global warming has happened, and some to support that it is happening now (and some suggesting it isn't. . .point is, there's actually empirical data that's been collected and needs to be examined). Global warming is something that should continue to be debated, especially since science hasn't yet been able to quantify what sort of contribution humans make to the equation. There are definitely scientific arguments to be made one way or the other on that one. There's no such scientific basis for the Creationist/ID crowd.

1105 Scorch  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:35:59am

re: #1101 Fearless Fred
It does not take much Fearless to get dinged down. I just attribute it to just a tad bit of animosity toward those who believe in a creator even though we do not believe in ID being taught in science classes. Very disturbing trend, attempt at censorship I would say, which is Charles right since he owns the sight but still a disturbing trend by a few in here. Will say again in agreement Fearless that the Austin American Statesman is just a biased liberal rag and few even subscribe to it anymore. Hell I've become honored to have the ding downs. It has come to the point where I could post an "A" only and be down dinged.
We also sent our kids to a private christian school until their last year then they wanted to go back to public to be in their sports programs. I must say the latter was a big mistake and if we had it all to do again we would of kept them in private schools.

1106 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 12:01:17pm

re: #1105 Scorch

It does not take much Fearless to get dinged down. I just attribute it to just a tad bit of animosity toward those who believe in a creator even though we do not believe in ID being taught in science classes. Very disturbing trend, attempt at censorship I would say, which is Charles right since he owns the sight but still a disturbing trend by a few in here.

You could also look at it as a sign that people aren't very tolerant about foolishness like creationism, which is of course a very different thing than believing in a creator.

I like the censorship angle, though. Keep working that victimhood thing. You're being persecuted and censored by people clicking on a little red button.


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