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And Now, the International Anti-Darwin Essay Contest

Weird | Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:03:57 pm PST

We do have some LGF readers who are creationists, so we would be remiss if we didn’t bring to your attention a chance to win a prize of 100,000 new Turkish lira (about $63,191.14 US at current exchange rates), in a scientific essay contest being held by Turkish creationist Harun Yahya (aka Adnan Oktar): WHY IS THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION INVALID?

The competitors of the competition “Why Is the Theory of Evolution Invalid?” held by Science Research Foundation had some righteous demands, stating that given the too many dilemmas of Darwinism, 15 pages is too short for their essays and that the time is inadequate.

Upon these requests, some changes have been made on the rules of the competition and the GREAT PRIZE IS INCREASED. Entries which will be hand-written on A4 paper will NOT EXCEED 60 PAGES IN LENGTH AND NOT BE LESS THAN 30 PAGES.

The competition will include two stages. In this first stage of the competition, the prize of the winning contestant is increased to 25,000 YTL. Therunner-up will receive 15,000 YTL and the third prize-winning contestant will receive 10,000 YTL.

In the second stage of the competition, the winning contestant will receive a prize of 100,000 YTL, the runner-up 50,000 YTL and the third prize-winning contestant 25,000 YTL.

In the first stage of the competition, contestants will send to our foundation their essays containing comprehensive and convincing information on the subject of all the Darwinist dilemmas that prove the invalidity of evolution, of the kind summarized below. The first 1000 entries received will be considered.

The contestants will send their theses to the following address of the foundation by mail: Çakırağa mah. Katip Müslihittin sok. Sağlam İşhanı No.3 D.12-13 Aksaray/İstanbul. The last day to receive the essays is extended until 18 October 2009.

In the second stage of the contest, the scientific essays reaching our foundation will be evaluated by academicians who are experts on the subject and 100 contestants will be entitled to take part in the final.

The final competition will be held on 6 December 2009, Sunday at a location which will be announced later with the participation of the 100 contestants that are selected by the jury.

The contestants will be asked to answer a test consisting of 80 questions.

The winners will receive their checks at an award ceremony on 28 December 2009.

The purpose of this competition is to raise young people’s awareness of Darwinism, which has inflicted immense damage on mankind and to put them on their guard against this terrible fraud in science.

Old-time creationist huckstering at its best, with a Turkish flair.

Oktar proceeds to offer a long laundry list of anti-evolution talking points, helpful suggestions to the contestants about areas on which they should focus their research; a little intelligent design here, some young earth creationism there, irreducible complexity and the second law of thermodynamics, etc., ad nauseam. Ending with point #17, with which I dare you to argue:

(17) The fact that we only have experience of an image of matter totally demolishes Darwinist philosophy...

One reality scientifically proven in our century is that we never have direct experience of the external original of matter. Electric signals reach us by way of our senses, and the image that forms for us in our brains consists solely of these signals. But we see highly colored, vivid, active, three-dimensional and perfectly sharp images, hear perfectly clear sounds and perceive a flawless outside world. But all these are merely perceptions. It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns. This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter.

(Hat tip: Killgore.)

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774 comments

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1 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:05:58pm

I'm off to Glen Rose, Texas to do my research...

2 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:06:01pm
3 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:06:17pm
(17) The fact that we only have experience of an image of matter totally demolishes Darwinist philosophy...

So- we really are living in the Matrix?

4 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:08:02pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

So- we really are living in the Matrix?

LOL, my thought exactly!

5 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:08:05pm

Shit, you need a scientific paper to explain the rules!

6 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:08:23pm

I'm working on my entry now.

7 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:09:03pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I'm working on my entry now.

I bet you will win.

8 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:09:04pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

So- we're not a team anymore? :(

9 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:09:11pm

The theory of evolution is invalid because it's turtles all the way down.

Duh!

10 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:09:23pm

Interesting.

Flip that - what if someone were offering cash to whomever proves creationism is invalid?

11 Cognito  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:09:33pm

Reasons evolution is invalid, as science: the $64,000 question.

Reasons creation is valid, as science: the $64 billion question.

It's like mixing questions of 'how' and 'why.'

They're simply not the same.

12 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:09:46pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

So- we really are living in the Matrix?

The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

13 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:10:06pm

re: #10 Racer X

Interesting.

Flip that - what if someone were offering cash to whomever proves creationism is invalid?

It would be called persecution by some.

14 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:10:22pm
15 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:10:41pm

re: #10 Racer X

Interesting.

Flip that - what if someone were offering cash to whomever proves creationism is invalid?

Science has already don that, why reinvent the wheel?

16 least  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:10:45pm
Entries which will be hand-written on A4 paper will NOT EXCEED 60 PAGES IN LENGTH AND NOT BE LESS THAN 30 PAGES.

Ack!
On the bright side, there will be lots of thread fodder! ;)

17 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:10:52pm
But all these are merely perceptions. It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns. This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter.

I'm just speechless.

18 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:10:59pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

So- we really are living in the Matrix?

May I ask where you are getting that stuff?

An image of matter? What do they think the photon bounced off of?
Or have they taken on course in quantum?

19 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:11:08pm

Does one have to be anti-evolution to be a creationist?

20 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:11:23pm
21 Charles  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:11:30pm

re: #10 Racer X

Interesting.

Flip that - what if someone were offering cash to whomever proves creationism is invalid?

That wouldn't even be a contest.

22 Charles  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:12:34pm

Charles! There you go again sneering at Christians... oh wait.

23 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:12:37pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

Kind of. I think what he's getting at is a little quantum physics. When you touch a table (or anything else) you aren't really touch stuff (matter). You're finger doesn't pass through the table because it's solid (it's about 99.9% empty space), you only feel the electrical resistance between your finger and the table. The same goes for sight, you never really "see" anything, you just see light reflected off of things.
/Does that make any sense?

24 Soona'  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:12:40pm

They're not monkeying around this time, are they?

25 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:12:55pm

I believe God created evolution. I guess I wouldn't win. :>(

26 least  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:12:56pm

re: #21 Charles

It's on!
heh

27 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:12:59pm

I like question 17- gives one an opportunity to use the Second Law of Thermodynamics argument. I bet that would impress the judges.

28 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:11pm

re: #22 Charles

Charles! There you go again sneering at Christians... oh wait.

Okay, that was scary. The Lizard King speaking to the... ?

29 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:24pm

This should be fun.

30 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:28pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Yes.

31 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:44pm

re: #8 Sharmuta

I converted the currency the wrong way earlier. There isn't a whole lot of cash to go around on this one. Every Lizard for itself!

32 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:46pm

Here's my entry:

Because I said so.

/where's my prize?

33 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:47pm

re: #22 Charles

Charles! There you go again sneering at Christians... oh wait.

Often Christians sneer at Christians.

34 Charles  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:51pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Kind of. I think what he's getting at is a little quantum physics. When you touch a table (or anything else) you aren't really touch stuff (matter). You're finger doesn't pass through the table because it's solid (it's about 99.9% empty space), you only feel the electrical resistance between your finger and the table. The same goes for sight, you never really "see" anything, you just see light reflected off of things.
/Does that make any sense?

It's deep.

35 phoenixgirl  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:13:58pm

re: #22 Charles

re: #22 Charles

if you are going to fight with yourself at least use a sock/

36 lesbianrainforest  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:03pm

A man with a gun went into a bank and demanded money.

Once he was given the money, he turned to a customer and asked,

"Did you see me rob this bank?"

The man replied, "Yes sir, I did."
The robber then shot him in the head, killing him instantly.

He then turned to a couple standing next to him and asked the man,

"Did you see me rob this bank?"

The man replied, "No sir, I didn't, but my wife monkey did."

37 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:05pm

Looks like they give you the winning answers--you just have to stretch it out out 30-60 pages.

The reason for this is that among all the millions of fossils, NOT A SINGLE ONE supports evolution.
38 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:07pm

re: #22 Charles

Ha!

39 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:14pm

Heck, I'm on it.
That is a lot of moolah.
Baby needs a new pair of shoes.

40 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:21pm
This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter.

Nah, man. There is no such thing as matter, it's just energy condensed to a slow vibration.
/

41 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:28pm
42 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:32pm

re: #22 Charles

Charles! There you go again sneering at Christians... oh wait.

Heh.

I believe in a creator. I believe the creator put in motion evolution many billions of years ago.

43 theparson  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:37pm
know we have some LGF readers who are creationists, so we would be remiss if we didn’t bring to your attention a chance to win a prize of 100,000 new Turkish lira (about $63,191.14 US), in a scientific essay contest being held by Turkish creationist Harun Yahya (aka Adnan Oktar): WHY IS THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION INVALID?

There are some of us "creationists" who don't appreciate huckstering or subterfuge... or Charles' tone in the above quote.

44 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:40pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

So- we really are living in the Matrix?

I saw you post one of the points on an earlier thread, thought it was a different source....

45 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:46pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

You stay away from my Second Law argument! It's mine!

46 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:47pm

And just when I was starting to get into Plan 9 From Outer Space...........

47 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:14:57pm

re: #41 buzzsawmonkey

I would think that a mastery of impenetrable jargon would do the trick--like that postmodern physics paper that was submitted to some journal or other a few years ago.

Or Fjordman!

48 Charles  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:15:52pm

re: #43 theparson

There are some of us "creationists" who don't appreciate huckstering or subterfuge... or Charles' tone in the above quote.

Hey, I'm serious! Here's your chance to win a fair amount of money just for writing something about a subject you believe in! Sheesh. Try to be nice and see what I get.

49 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:15:59pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

Or Fjordman!

Oh, man! LMAO

50 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:16:24pm

re: #43 theparson

There are some of us "creationists" who don't appreciate huckstering or subterfuge... or Charles' tone in the above quote.

Okay, So. It's his blog. Right?

51 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:16:46pm

re: #34 Charles

They just made further disoveries about this last week: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

52 Soona'  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:16:50pm

re: #42 Racer X

Heh.

I believe in a creator. I believe the creator put in motion evolution many billions of years ago.

Zactly!

53 Truck Monkey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:17:16pm

re: #42 Racer X

Heh.

I believe in a creator. I believe the creator put in motion evolution many billions of years ago.

Summed up quite nicely I think. I don't know how he does it or what he is thinking but I do know that his creation is perfect.

54 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:17:18pm

re: #19 DesertSage

Does one have to be anti-evolution to be a creationist?

Anyone?

55 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:18:31pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Just as a point of interest, QM does say that it is possible that your hand can pass through the table; it's just not very likely.

56 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:18:43pm

re: #54 DesertSage

Anyone?

Shucks, that's easy. No.

57 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:18:54pm
58 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:18:55pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

They just made further disoveries about this last week: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

That sucks.

59 theparson  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:19:24pm

re: #48 Charles

Hey, I'm serious! Here's your chance to win a fair amount of money just for writing something about a subject you believe in! Sheesh. Try to be nice and see what I get.

Really? You are serious? No "snarkiness" intended? No underlying sarcasm? You're just trying to help?

60 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:19:28pm

re: #54 DesertSage

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

61 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:19:43pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Get paid for your creationist views! Become a pro-creationist!

A breeder?

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:19:49pm

re: #58 jcm

I feel so empty.
/heh

63 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:19:52pm

re: #53 Truck Monkey

I don't know how he does it or what he is thinking but I do know that his creation is perfect.

Well, I dunno. Me personally - I would have done the pinky toe a little differently.

64 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:19:58pm

re: #54 DesertSage

Nope. As succinctly put on South Park (of all places):

"Maybe evolution is the answer to how, not why."

65 littlegreenbill  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:20:11pm

I would rather read their essays to, "Why is Allah invalid?" Now THAT would deep up some interesting "science."

66 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:20:16pm

re: #56 monkeytime

Shucks, that's easy. No.

Then what are we debating?

67 Soona'  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:20:32pm

re: #55 Naso Tang

Just as a point of interest, QM does say that it is possible that your hand can pass through the table; it's just not very likely.

Unless your Jet Lee.

68 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:20:43pm

re: #54 DesertSage

Anyone?

Well, it seems according to this Turkish group, yes. According to some people I have seen posting here, no. According to me, I don't care. I don't believe in creation, but those who do, fine, just keep it out of science, because it isn't.

69 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:20:45pm
70 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:07pm

re: #66 DesertSage

Then what are we debating?

Makes for good troll flushing bait...

71 ornery elephant  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:14pm

Can we still put links in the threads or is that only up in the Links section....I missed the memo. : )

72 DisturbedEma  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:15pm

I should win because as Jew, I know that evolution passed me by in favor of real people, who are of the correct religion. I am proof that evolution is not real because I am still considered a monkey or a pig after thousands of years on earth. . .

Please send my check to the vast right wing conspiracy. . .////////////

73 Salem  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:34pm

What I don't understand is how #17 in any way supports the existence of a creator god or anything in the bible.

74 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:43pm

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Well, it seems according to this Turkish group, yes. According to some people I have seen posting here, no. According to me, I don't care. I don't believe in creation, but those who do, fine, just keep it out of science, because it isn't.

Well, that's a pretty good answer. I think I'm beginning to understand.

75 DisturbedEma  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:48pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Get paid for your creationist views! Become a pro-creationist!

Is that some sort of offer?

:)

76 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:21:54pm

re: #53 Truck Monkey

Summed up quite nicely I think. I don't know how he does it or what he is thinking but I do know that his creation is perfect.

It's simple really. It's faith - you got it or you don't.
"For those without faith there is no explanation possible, for those with faith there is no explanation necessary."

77 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:22:08pm

Even the inmates at MPACUK mock this crap.

78 Charles  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:22:13pm

re: #59 theparson

Really? You are serious? No "snarkiness" intended? No underlying sarcasm? You're just trying to help?

$63,191.14 sounds pretty serious to me. The offer's real as far as I can tell, although I'm not sure how all the international rules work.

79 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:22:20pm
(13) The history of evolution is full of fraud...

JCM- I mentioned this one earlier. I find it ironic.

80 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:22:48pm

re: #53 Truck Monkey

Summed up quite nicely I think. I don't know how he does it or what he is thinking but I do know that his creation is perfect.

Yea, we've seen the historical example of a "perfect creation." I know your next answer. His creation is perfect, we fuck it up, or Stan fucked it up.

81 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:23:07pm

re: #54 DesertSage

Anyone?

Depends. A creationist that believes evolution was created; or the other kind?

82 _Felix  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:23:53pm

There was a BBC article about philosophy recently, this argument is the same as question three:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

I think the important points are 1) yes, possibly the world is a perfect illusion with no clues to suggest its true nature, but so what, and 2) any illusion which contains a convincing, autonomous representation of a physical thing which can be experimented on to derive consistent physical laws does in fact contain that thing and those laws of physics, or as good as.

83 Salem  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:23:55pm

re: #78 Charles

$63,191.14 sounds pretty serious to me. The offer's real as far as I can tell, although I'm not sure how all the international rules work.

Hopefully, the winner will donate all that money to a good cause. You know, starving children, something like that.

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:06pm

Fat Bastard is on Austin Powers right now. I just became very happy!

85 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:09pm

re: #81 Naso Tang

Depends. A creationist that believes evolution was created; or the other kind?

What's the other kind?

86 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:37pm

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fat Bastard is on Austin Powers right now. I just became very happy!


Groovey Baby!

87 Truck Monkey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:40pm

re: #63 Racer X

Well, I dunno. Me personally - I would have done the pinky toe a little differently.

You might not like the way that it looks but try walking with a broken one. reminds me of the joke of the body parts arguing about who was the boss. Have you heard that one?

When Lord made man, the body parts get together and argued;

"Who will be the boss of the body?"

The stomach countered,

"Since I digested the food, I must be the boss."

The brain said,

"Since I am controlling the body parts, I must be the boss."

The eyes explained,

"Since I can see the environment I must be the boss."

The legs countered,

"Since I take the body to whereever it needs, I must be the boss."

Then the arsehole added,

"Since I let the body feel good by taking out everything not needed, I must
be the boss.

The body parts laughed and laughed at the arsehole. The arsehole got
crazy and shut up;


Three days later the body parts began to get sick since the arsehole hadn't
let anything out. The brain got foggy, the legs wobbled, the eyes got crossed'
the stomach got sick. Then the body parts get together and agreed to make the
arsehole boss!

THIS IS TO PROVE YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A BRAIN TO BE A BOSS JUST AN ARSEHOLE!

88 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:43pm

cre⋅a⋅tion⋅ism [kree-ey-shuh-niz-uhm]

–noun 1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, esp. in the first chapter of Genesis.
3. the doctrine that God immediately creates out of nothing a new human soul for each individual born.

89 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:50pm

re: #82 _Felix

There was a BBC article about philosophy recently, this argument is the same as question three:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

I think the important points are 1) yes, possibly the world is a perfect illusion with no clues to suggest its true nature, but so what, and 2) any illusion which contains a convincing, autonomous representation of a physical thing which can be experimented on to derive consistent physical laws does in fact contain that thing and those laws of physics, or as good as.

Man, oh, man... why didn't I take the Blue Pill?

90 Stonemason  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:56pm

re: #48 Charles

The one thing I like about these threads is that normally you use a phrase that could have been lifted from my tenth grade Biology paper on the subject regarding belief in both creation and evolution. One just needs to understand that literal 6000 year stuff does not fly and we can have our creation and Darwin too!

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:56pm

re: #86 monkeytime

Groovey Baby!

Grrrr baby! Very Grrrrr.

92 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:24:59pm

re: #78 Charles

$63,191.14 sounds pretty serious to me. The offer's real as far as I can tell, although I'm not sure how all the international rules work.

They can make it a million, or a billion. I do not think anyone will claim it.

93 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:25:07pm
The fact that we only have experience of an image of matter totally demolishes Darwinist philosophy...

Who th' F* wrote this, a junior college "Philosophy" (sick sic) student?

94 Soona'  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:25:31pm

re: #82 _Felix

There was a BBC article about philosophy recently, this argument is the same as question three:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

I think the important points are 1) yes, possibly the world is a perfect illusion with no clues to suggest its true nature, but so what, and 2) any illusion which contains a convincing, autonomous representation of a physical thing which can be experimented on to derive consistent physical laws does in fact contain that thing and those laws of physics, or as good as.

It's all just a dream.

95 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:25:33pm

re: #74 DesertSage

Well, that's a pretty good answer. I think I'm beginning to understand.

Well Desert, that's just me. You and I would probably have no note about the subject, except for a hearty disagreement. I suspect that there are people on both sides that couldn't except either yours or my way of approaching the matter.

96 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:25:37pm

I hope they publish the winning paper!

97 ornery elephant  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:25:57pm

Tech question - when I click on the ratings number next to the " -" or " +", it takes me to the main page. Is that a glitch with IE7 or do I have cookie litter?

98 bkgodfrey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:25:58pm

Can I enter a picture of my girlfriend's shitzu, Jack, who I declare the antithesis to Darwinism?

Human intervention...the one thing Darwin didn't take into account...otherwise ol' Jack wouldn't fair so well with the whole "survival of the fittest thing"

99 Truck Monkey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:26:31pm

re: #76 monkeytime

It's simple really. It's faith - you got it or you don't.
"For those without faith there is no explanation possible, for those with faith there is no explanation necessary."

Us Monkeys ought really stick together. Well done.

100 gmsc  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:14pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind.

--Homer Simpson

--Thomas Hewitt Key

101 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:14pm

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Grrrr baby! Very Grrrrr.

"Get in mah belly"!

102 Stonemason  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:28pm

re: #54 DesertSage

Anyone?

No, as long as that creationist is not a literal creationist who believes the earth is only 6000 years old.

103 Soona'  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:34pm

Today's work is done. Talk to everyone later.

104 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:40pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

I hope they publish the winning paper!

(NOT meant to tell Charles what to post!) ... I'd like to see it get a Thread here. Bet it'll be a doozy!

105 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:46pm

re: #79 Sharmuta

JCM- I mentioned this one earlier. I find it ironic.

LOL! Piltdown wasn't so much a scientific fraud as a prestige fraud.

What was the dino / human footprint thread we had a while back? An honest effort to further science?

106 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:27:49pm

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, but he ain't no vegetarian.

107 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:28:12pm

re: #85 DesertSage

What's the other kind?

Sorry, I didn't mean to be obtuse. The usual kind, meaning those who don't think God is smart enough to work through something as elegant as evolution.

108 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:28:23pm

re: #103 Soona'

Today's work is done. Talk to everyone later.

wait!...I need your #2 pencil for this

109 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:28:59pm

re: #76 monkeytime

It's simple really. It's faith - you got it or you don't.
"For those without faith there is no explanation possible, for those with faith there is no explanation necessary."

Well that's a boatload of bullshit. I don't have faith, don't need faith, and don't give a hoot about faith, since science takes care of the knowing.

There is a BIG difference between knowledge and believing.

110 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:02pm

re: #95 Walter L. Newton

Well Desert, that's just me. You and I would probably have no note about the subject, except for a hearty disagreement. I suspect that there are people on both sides that couldn't except either yours or my way of approaching the matter.

I believe that the only thing you and I disagree about is the existence of God. Everything else we're in synchronicity.

111 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:21pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind.

--Homer Simpson

I think this is the best argument we are going to hear.

112 theparson  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:23pm

I'm sure we'll all know how it was done someday.

113 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:25pm

re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but he ain't no vegetarian.

So? FBV is one rump roast away from not being one, either.

114 Cognito  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:27pm

re: #107 Naso Tang

Sorry, I didn't mean to be obtuse. The usual kind, meaning those who don't think God is smart enough to work through something as elegant as evolution.

The much harder question, for me, is "Evolution as method... why?"

115 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:43pm

re: #105 jcm

LOL! Piltdown wasn't so much a scientific fraud as a prestige fraud.

What was the dino / human footprint thread we had a while back? An honest effort to further science?

Yes- it sure was. LOL Then there's everyone's favorite fraud- Michael Behe.

116 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:44pm

re: #97 ornery elephant

Tech question - when I click on the ratings number next to the " -" or " +", it takes me to the main page. Is that a glitch with IE7 or do I have cookie litter crumbs?

Fixed. Now how are your rating buttons? Did you reload? Want a peanut?

117 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:29:46pm

re: #99 Truck Monkey

Us Monkeys ought really stick together. Well done.

Wanna share a banana? :>)

118 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:30:25pm

re: #114 Cognito

The much harder question, for me, is "Evolution as method... why?"

Maybe it is neat to watch. Being God can get pretty boring, I bet.

119 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:31:16pm

re: #107 Naso Tang

Sorry, I didn't mean to be obtuse. The usual kind, meaning those who don't think God is smart enough to work through something as elegant as evolution.

Is that an illegitimate position?

120 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:31:23pm

re: #118 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Maybe it is neat to watch. Being God can get pretty boring, I bet.

bwahahaha...that's why he invented the NFL and rock and roll...

121 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:31:24pm

re: #114 Cognito

The much harder question, for me, is "Evolution as method... why?"

That is indeed a good question, but perhaps we don't want to go there this early in a thread.

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:31:38pm

re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but he ain't no vegetarian.

Yeah. We got a whole evil twin thang going on.

123 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:31:53pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

They just made further disoveries about this last week: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

My Filter Queen doesn't fluctuate. Strong motor.

So ... does that mean it doesn't exist in the material world.

/there's zen in there somewhere ... there just has to be!

124 ornery elephant  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:32:00pm

re: #116 wrenchwench

Fixed. Now how are your rating buttons? Did you reload? Want a peanut?

Hiya ww !

I tried the reload...seems to be working now! And I'll always take free peanuts!

125 garycooper  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:32:06pm

This offer prompted me to check on whether anyone had claimed James Randi's Million-Dollar Prize, to be awarded to anyone who can prove they possess paranormal powers of any kind. Nope, still not claimed, after all these years! You'd think somebody would risk the Negative Cosmic Vibes Surrounding Cashola, and just take the damn money.

Still a lot of suckers being born every day, Mr. Barnum:
[Link: www.randi.org...]

126 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:32:13pm

re: #120 albusteve

bwahahaha...that's why he invented the NFL and rock and roll...

Disco? Rap? Golf... no wait, that was Stan...

127 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:32:35pm

The first 100 days
See how other presidents fared.

128 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:33:27pm

re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but he ain't no vegetarian.

Speaking of Vegetarian, check out Cruise ship tossed salad

129 Truck Monkey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:33:42pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Yea, we've seen the historical example of a "perfect creation." I know your next answer. His creation is perfect, we fuck it up, or Stan fucked it up.

I've got no argument with you on this. It can be proven by science that everything has evolved from some other form. I am by no means a creationist nor do I believe in the dogma that creationists adhere to. I just have faith that evolution fits into a bigger plan that we as humans can study and learn from, but maybe truly never understand.

130 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:33:54pm

re: #119 DesertSage

Is that an illegitimate position?

Illegitimate according to who? I gave my opinion is all. We know some hold different ones.

131 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:34:20pm

re: #126 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Disco? Rap? Golf... no wait, that was Stan...

the eternal quandry...but wait!...if you order NOW....

132 Palandine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:34:33pm

I believe God created the universe, although I don't want that taught in science class.

However, I believe the Judeo-Christian God did it, not "Allah," so that probably leaves me out...

133 Truck Monkey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:35:17pm

re: #120 albusteve

bwahahaha...that's why he invented the NFL and rock and roll...

And Hooters!

134 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:35:54pm
135 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:00pm
cre⋅a⋅tion⋅ism [kree-ey-shuh-niz-uhm]

–noun 1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, esp. in the first chapter of Genesis

To answer Sage's question- yes. Creationists are anti-evolutionists.

136 transient  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:01pm

Does the essay have to be in Turkish?

137 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:35pm

re: #123 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My Filter Queen doesn't fluctuate.

That's a damn fine vacuum, I own two of them. One for the shop and one for the rest of the house.

138 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:36pm

re: #128 Wishing

Speaking of Vegetarian, check out Cruise ship tossed salad

I cannot believe I clicked a link with "Tossed Salad" in it.

139 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:43pm

re: #128 Wishing

Geez, you'd think they'd have those big, heavy cabinets anchored down.

140 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:44pm

re: #136 transient

Does the essay have to be in Turkish?

There's the kicker!

141 Cicero05  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:56pm

Last time I was in Turkey (in 2000) I paid 13,000,000 Turkish lire for a cab ride from the airport to the hotel -- less than 10 miles. I don't know what a YTL is but I'd find out before I invested any time in writing an essay.

Just sayin'

142 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:36:58pm

re: #129 Truck Monkey

I've got no argument with you on this. It can be proven by science that everything has evolved from some other form. I am by no means a creationist nor do I believe in the dogma that creationists adhere to. I just have faith that evolution fits into a bigger plan that we as humans can study and learn from, but maybe truly never understand.

Well, I can't argue with you on that point. Although I know where you are going with your "logic," since science doesn't have the answer for the "first cause" yet, then that point in time is still open to either science, or as you allude to above, faith in a supreme being.

I'll put my money of the science.

143 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:37:25pm
144 ornery elephant  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:37:36pm

re: #136 transient

Does the essay have to be in Turkish?

LOL

What's the Turkish phrase for "finch breakthrough" ?

145 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:37:43pm

re: #114 Cognito

The much harder question, for me, is "Evolution as method... why?"

We touched on it last night before I had to bail.

Time.

In scripture eternity is used to described in some places as God's location. Without getting into all the details, in my research this is not simply a long time before us and a long time after us. It is completely separate time scape, most likely timeless. The implication is our time to God is irrelevant. What we see as billions of years of evolution, is God creating.

Can that be proven? no. Is that science? Hell no. It's merely alluded to in the texts, and makes for interest discussion.

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:37:47pm

re: #139 Slumbering Behemoth

Geez, you'd think they'd have those big, heavy cabinets anchored down.

And the damn wait staff. See that guy go flying. Ouch.

147 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:38:06pm

re: #132 Palandine

I believe God created the universe, although I don't want that taught in science class.

However, I believe the Judeo-Christian God did it, not "Allah," so that probably leaves me out...

OT to your comment (forgive me, please) ... Mohammed's deity was, in fact, originally, the Judeo-Christian G*d.

After he moved from Mecca to Medina, he decided that he had a branding problem.

148 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:38:15pm

re: #130 Naso Tang

Illegitimate according to who? I gave my opinion is all. We know some hold different ones.

I read your comment wrong, sorry.

"....those who don't think God is smart enough to work through something as elegant as evolution."

I didn't see the "don't" when I first read it.
Myself, I believe that God WAS smart enough to work through something as elegant as evolution. That has been my position all along.

In your opinion, is that a legitimate position?

149 USBeast  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:38:56pm

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing. Between the Christian fundamentalists and Islam the drive to drag us back into the Dark Ages is getting scary.

150 _Felix  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:03pm
It's all just a dream.

I was trying to say roughly the opposite of that, but it didn't seem to work. What I mean is, if it's all just a really good dream, as in completely convincing, and nothing in the dream is in any way shoddy or unreal, there is no reason to treat it as one or go around saying "our world is illusory" or "screw Darwin".

Also, it is identical to the real deal (see the part about nothing being shoddy or unreal). And therefore not a dream in any meaningful way, until somebody specifies how.

151 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:03pm

re: #133 Truck Monkey

And Hooters!

hmmm...Full Contact Hooters....(Start Me Up!)

152 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:10pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

I like question 17- gives one an opportunity to use the Second Law of Thermodynamics argument. I bet that would impress the judges.

OY. There was some college student creationist over at hotair who tried to scare people with that crap....said something stupid like "I bet all these evolutionists don't even know the 2nd Law of Thermo"

unfortunately for him, an adjunct physics prof was there to correct him, and I was there to explain that evolution is simply a description of how species either adapted to changing habitats and thrived or failed to adapt and died. Period. Live or die...sink or swim. No thermodynamics involved at all.

I have a master's in biochem, and yes, I did take advanced thermo and kinetics (passed PhD quals, but tired of the research hell and realized I couldn't do it for another 40 years).

It was amusing watching the kid backpeddle.

153 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:16pm

re: #136 transient

No, American creationists often speak and present papers at Harun Yahya/Adnan Oktar conferences. They would probably prefer the paper be written in English for distribution in America and Europe. The Islamic world already accepts creationism, their target is America and Europe.

154 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:17pm

OT, but what is up with this "office of the President-Elect"?
Is that a new phenomenon? I don't recall needing one before.
And why are the news people calling him "President Obama"?

155 hillbilly geek  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:30pm

Win 10,000 Turkeys? It's a Thanksgiving contest?

156 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:39pm
157 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:39:47pm

re: #145 jcm

We touched on it last night before I had to bail.

Time.

In scripture eternity is used to described in some places as God's location. Without getting into all the details, in my research this is not simply a long time before us and a long time after us. It is completely separate time scape, most likely timeless. The implication is our time to God is irrelevant. What we see as billions of years of evolution, is God creating.

Can that be proven? no. Is that science? Hell no. It's merely alluded to in the texts, and makes for interest discussion.

Please give me the 'allusions" in the text. I think I know where you are coming from, but I want to make sure. I studied something like this back in the 70's and I just want to see if it is similar to what you are talking about.

Do you have some scriptural references?

158 ornery elephant  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:41:40pm

re: #149 USBeast

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing. Between the Christian fundamentalists and Islam the drive to drag us back into the Dark Ages is getting scary.

I'd have to say I hate that you said it too.

159 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:42:07pm

re: #152 funky chicken

The creationists love to bring in the second law of thermo. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to work in entropy. I'm playing to win. ;)

160 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:42:18pm

re: #143 buzzsawmonkey

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Word.

161 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:42:23pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

That's a damn fine vacuum, I own two of them. One for the shop and one for the rest of the house.

Yes! I got the vacuum in the divorce. Bought in 1967. Died about four years ago solely because water had dripped into it, and I didn't realize it until rust had formed in the motor. I went and bought a used FQ. Prior generation. Another honker! I love 'em!

162 spacejesus  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:42:25pm

Evolution is Wrong
by SpaceJesus


Evolution or should I say Evil-lution, lolz, is the product of none other than satan himself. It is nothing more than an attempt to corrupt the divine word through the hocus-pocus and witchcraft of 'science.'

allah akbar.

the end.

I'm going to buy so many döner kebabs with all that lira I'm about to win.

163 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:43:55pm

re: #70 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Makes for good troll flushing bait...

So creationists are trolls?

164 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:44:19pm

re: #143 buzzsawmonkey

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Killgore and I love our Filter Queens!
We spit upon Nature!

/waiting for Mother Nature to take revenge

165 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:44:45pm

re: #163 father_of_10

So creationists are trolls?

Nice try.

No, but the topic can get them to blow their cover.

166 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:45:00pm

Giant Obama head is ripping us off....
Yes, You Can...Make A Giant Obama-Head Sculpture

It’s pretty easy to guess what was going through the minds of most Houstonians after Barack Obama was elected. When would David Adickes get to work on his 7,000-pound concrete and steel Barack Obama head?

The answer: the very next day. All he’s got so far is a model -- in truth, one that doesn’t much look like the president elect yet -- but give the man a few months. Adickes says the head should be done at least by early spring. “I could possibly get it done by inauguration,” he tells Hair Balls. “I’m gonna try, but it’s a lot of work.”

167 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:45:39pm
168 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:45:44pm

re: #149 USBeast

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing. Between the Christian fundamentalists and Islam the drive to drag us back into the Dark Ages is getting scary.

Comparing Christian fundamentalists with Islam is a stretch.

169 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:46:04pm

re: #145 jcm

eternity ... God's location

Good point.
(pun not intended)

170 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:46:06pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Giant Obama head is ripping us off....
Yes, You Can...Make A Giant Obama-Head Sculpture

Alex, I'll take "1,001 Uses for C-4" for $5,000...

171 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:46:17pm

re: #145 jcm

But it is only an interesting discussion for believers is it not? Without that starting point it makes no sense at all.

172 least  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:46:18pm

re: #162 spacejesus
Visualize coherence.
Plz

173 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:46:26pm

re: #165 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Nice try.

No, but the topic can get them to blow their cover.

How so? Seems to me the trolls are more politically inclined.

174 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:46:53pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Too bad it won't be ready for Christmas. What a great stocking stuffer!

175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:47:09pm

re: #154 rawmuse

Hey Raw! We disagreed on a ding. I thought it was funny you (obviously) did not. Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello on Austin Powers now.

Bet you can figure out where.

176 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:47:25pm
177 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:47:27pm

re: #173 father_of_10

They also have trouble avoiding a heated argument...

178 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:47:38pm

re: #162 spacejesus

Evolution is Wrong
by SpaceJesus


Evolution or should I say Evil-lution, lolz, is the product of none other than satan himself. It is nothing more than an attempt to corrupt the divine word through the hocus-pocus and witchcraft of 'science.'

allah akbar.

the end.

I'm going to buy so many döner kebabs with all that lira I'm about to win.

You need 29.75 more pages....

179 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:47:55pm

re: #164 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Killgore and I love our Filter Queens!
We spit upon Nature!

/waiting for Mother Nature to take revenge

My Kirby out sucks your FilterQueen! I spit in the general direction of your vacuum!

180 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:47:57pm

re: #149 USBeast

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing. Between the Christian fundamentalists and Islam the drive to drag us back into the Dark Ages is getting scary.

It needs no such thing, over time reality always wins.

181 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:48:24pm

re: #149 USBeast

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing. Between the Christian fundamentalists and Islam the drive to drag us back into the Dark Ages is getting scary.

Sadly, there are militant scientists who are just as obnoxious as the militant creationists.

182 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:48:48pm

re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

If anyone enters, make duplicates, and submit the Topkapi here.

If any of us lizards enter, do you REALLY expect us to fez up?

183 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:48:55pm

re: #179 father_of_10

My Kirby out sucks your FilterQueen! I spit in the general direction of your vacuum!

Yes! Kirbys rule!

184 monkeytime  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:49:06pm

re: #178 wrenchwench


Just use really big font.

185 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:49:10pm

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pretty freaking disjointed post there. Wow.

186 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:49:21pm

Speaking of whacked-out (and whacked... ) people, BBC has video of the scientology shoot-out scene (warning, some gore)

187 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:49:34pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

I'd rather write a 30 page creationist treatise than build a giant Obama-head sculpture.

I believe that makes me a heretic.

I've been called worse.

188 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:49:36pm

re: #177 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

They also have trouble avoiding a heated argument...

I just note that you and I joined LGF at about the same time. How are we at avoiding heated discussions?

189 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:50:35pm
190 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:51:45pm

re: #188 father_of_10

I just note that you and I joined LGF at about the same time. How are we at avoiding heated discussions?

lol. I've never gotten "hot" because of a fellow lizard. There have been a few bores over the years, but they are easy to ignore.

Learned a lot just listening.

191 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:51:48pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

Had a lot of big dust bunnies
It was very hard to keep my house clean
And I never saw the good side of the carpet
Til sprung my wallet for a new Filter Queen

Its ways I keep on learnin'
Filter Queen keep on churnin'
Vacuum
Vacuum
Vacuuming the carpet
Vacuum
Vacuum
Vacuuming the carpet

*groan*
And the ribber keeps on rollin' ... rollin' 'em out.

192 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:51:54pm

re: #181 funky chicken

Sadly, there are militant scientists who are just as obnoxious as the militant creationists.

They are armed with sheathed protractors and carry lab notes....

/seriously, "militant" is a bit much for the rabid secularists like PZ Meyers of cracker stealing fame, militant is what the press calls hamas, hezbollah, Jaish e Muhammed, the Taliban, etc....

193 hillbilly geek  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:51:57pm

re: #186 Thanos

Speaking of whacked-out (and whacked... ) people, BBC has video of the scientology shoot-out scene (warning, some gore)

Ouch. Talking about bringing a knife to a gunfight.

194 mikeymom  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:52:02pm

re: #185 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FBV--just curious--you mentioned you are quite young and are married--how is it you are on lgf 24/7 or so it seems? just curious here

195 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:52:04pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

Please give me the 'allusions" in the text. I think I know where you are coming from, but I want to make sure. I studied something like this back in the 70's and I just want to see if it is similar to what you are talking about.

Do you have some scriptural references?

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (Amplified Bible)
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end

This is way human's seek answers, a connection to the eternal, not exactly on subject by an important sidebar.

Revelation is written in the past tense, as having occurred but is prophecy of things yet to come for earth.

2 Peter 3:8, one day as a thousand years.

Yowm, in Genesis, translated as "day" is not in context compared with any where in the scripture as a literal day, more like what we mean when we say "in may grandfathers" a non-specific period of time.


Ephesians 1:4, He chose us...before the foundation of the world.

Before creation God knows us.

And others, a timeless God also helps iron out other discrepancies in the text.

196 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:52:20pm
197 Charles  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:52:51pm

re: #149 USBeast

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing.

Good luck with that.

198 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:53:16pm

re: #187 funky chicken

I'd rather write a 30 page creationist treatise than build a giant Obama-head sculpture.

I believe that makes me a heretic.

I've been called worse.

chisle chisle chisle....
Easter Island
go forth and chisle

199 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:54:24pm

re: #182 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If any of us lizards enter, do you REALLY expect us to fez up?

I predict that the winner will be a Westerner with some public recognition. After all this is a propaganda exercise and the talking points on the issue are know ad nauseam. The only difference between papers will be in grammar and composition and the final test will be to see how well the winner does on the speaking circuit.

Behe could win.

200 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:54:27pm

re: #192 Thanos

Dawkins is another one. I call then evangelical atheists. Beware the believers

201 HelloDare  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:54:38pm

Somebody dinged this thread down. Wonder what the reasoning was? Probably against the corrupting influence of essays, no matter what they are about.

202 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:55:21pm

Ticed the whole thing down? Whatever.

203 davinvalkri  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:55:22pm

(17) The fact that we only have experience of an image of matter totally demolishes Darwinist philosophy...

Uh...what? This makes no sense at all! The fact that we can percieve something is proof of something we can't percieve which demolishes something that was and is percieved and...owwwwww...

/head asplode, movie style

204 Steffan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:55:39pm

Last I heard, China has written records that are older than the date most creationists say the world was created.

They have archeological evidence that goes back to roughly 7600 BC, and something that might be writing a thousand years latter. Egyptian history goes back almost as far.

How do those nimrods explain carbon-14 dating?

205 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:55:41pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout

Dawkins is another one. I call then evangelical atheists. Beware the believers

I like that term, and USbeast is right, sometimes they get obnoxious

206 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:55:44pm

re: #149 USBeast

Fuck you and your horse named Moral Equivalency.

207 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:55:52pm
208 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:56:36pm

re: #183 wrenchwench

#179 father_of_10

My Kirby out sucks your FilterQueen! I spit in the general direction of your vacuum!

Yes! Kirbys rule!

Kirbys are upright. It behoovers you two not to brag about how much they suck. They will resent it.

209 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:56:44pm

re: #186 Thanos

Speaking of whacked-out (and whacked... ) people, BBC has video of the scientology shoot-out scene (warning, some gore)

Did you see where the American Archeologist shot a middle eastern swordsman?

210 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:56:49pm

re: #192 Thanos

They are armed with sheathed protractors and carry lab notes....

/seriously, "militant" is a bit much for the rabid secularists like PZ Meyers of cracker stealing fame, militant is what the press calls hamas, hezbollah, Jaish e Muhammed, the Taliban, etc....

The media is candy-coating terrorists by calling them militants. That doesn't mean I can't use the word correctly.

211 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:56:52pm

re: #206 MandyManners

Fuck you and your horse named Moral Equivalency.

Which is why I ticked him down . . .

212 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:57:29pm

re: #209 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you see where the American Archeologist shot a middle eastern swordsman?

Heh, I didn't even have to click the link to know what scene from Indiana Jones that was.

213 BlueCanuck  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:57:38pm

re: #204 Steffan


How do those nimrods explain carbon-14 dating?

Usually they say it's in error, it doesn't work, and a few other ones that I have heard and forgotten. Anything that essentially disproves YEC is false and wrong.

/go figure

214 ChargerGirl[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:57:41pm
215 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:57:55pm

re: #182 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If any of us lizards enter, do you REALLY expect us to fez up?

You Ottoman.

216 Jim D  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:03pm

re: #204 Steffan

You don't want to get those guys started on carbon dating.

217 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:21pm

re: #194 mikeymom

FBV--just curious--you mentioned you are quite young and are married--how is it you are on lgf 24/7 or so it seems? just curious here

I'm 47. Off today. Insomnia. Wife has been ill. She's in bed already. uh... what else. I love it here.

Not even to 10k posts yet (but close)

218 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:28pm

re: #171 Naso Tang

But it is only an interesting discussion for believers is it not? Without that starting point it makes no sense at all.

That's the problem we are time constrained, and have a very difficult dealing in timelessness as a concept.

Simply it's another dimension. Look at surface and analysis it from a 2D prespective, you have linear move from point x1y1 to xnyn passing through all xy points in between. However if you have a z axis, from one point you can "see" all points on that line.

We need a starting point to wrap our minds around, since all of creation is time bound it's hard to get out of that mind set. That dimension is not necessary outside of creation looking in.

219 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:47pm
220 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:47pm

re: #214 ChargerGirl

Are you aware that the turkish sponsor of this essay contesting is working in conjunction with American creationist groups?

221 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:49pm

re: #206 MandyManners

Fuck you and your horse named Moral Equivalency.

/How to influence friends and make enemies! I mean like how can anyone respond to such a comment. You leave no room for debate, mate

222 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:58:50pm

Oreck rocks.

223 davinvalkri  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:59:16pm

re: #12 David IV of Georgia

ENOUGH WITH THE ******* MATRIX ALREADY!
If such a darkened world were to come about, the robots would very soon be out of a job (or dead)--we'd start dying off by the billions, and there's no way to feed us with any sort of net population gain without a massive robot genocide. It's strictly conservation of energy.

/hyperventilation. I know it's all in fun, but really, I'm sick of the Matrix.

224 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:59:21pm

re: #220 Sharmuta

Er- contesting PIMF

225 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:59:41pm

re: #217 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm 47. Off today. Insomnia. Wife has been ill. She's in bed already. uh... what else. I love it here.

Not even to 10k posts yet (but close)

You're there.

I've been on LGF for 4 years and still haven't hit 2000.

Maybe if I made it a GOAL!

226 Timbre  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:59:49pm

And on this day in history, November 24, 1859, Charles Darwin published "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection."

227 mikeymom  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 5:59:57pm

FBV--would you answer my question at 194, please?

228 BlueCanuck  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:00:00pm

re: #217 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not even to 10k posts yet (but close)

Ahem, at the time of this commenting. . . 10,071 posts.

/been awhile since you checked?
//if not there myself am damn close

229 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:00:01pm
Electric signals reach us by way of our senses, and the image that forms for us in our brains consists solely of these signals

They left out the part when you reach to touch the table, you cannot, but merely the electrons in your fingertips and the table top repulse each other. You are touching as much as two magnets do.

Oh, and probability theory and sub atomic physics suggests you cannot really be sure the table is actually there.

You see, it's all an illusion. I've evolved... I am a butterfly dreaming I'm a man and so has the rope on the ground in the twilight..., which evolved instantly I found to be a SNAKE! Ouch.

/no, I'm not drinking, but should be.

230 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:00:28pm

re: #204 Steffan

Last I heard, China has written records that are older than the date most creationists say the world was created.

They have archeological evidence that goes back to roughly 7600 BC, and something that might be writing a thousand years latter. Egyptian history goes back almost as far.

How do those nimrods explain carbon-14 dating?

Rhetorical question?

If you wanted an answer, they say that radioactive decay rates have...wait for it...evolved over time. No joke.

231 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:00:40pm
232 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:00:54pm

re: #221 LoFlyer

/How to influence friends and make enemies! I mean like how can anyone respond to such a comment. You leave no room for debate, mate

If you knew miss manners, you would jump right into the debate . . . go for it!

233 mikeymom  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:01:03pm

re: #227 mikeymom

sorry--but didnt you today say you were 19? or am i confusing you with someone else?

234 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:01:03pm

BBL... gotta get the old fat ass on the treadmill.

235 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:01:10pm

re: #223 davinvalkri

ENOUGH WITH THE ******* MATRIX ALREADY!
If such a darkened world were to come about, the robots would very soon be out of a job (or dead)--we'd start dying off by the billions, and there's no way to feed us with any sort of net population gain without a massive robot genocide. It's strictly conservation of energy.

/hyperventilation. I know it's all in fun, but really, I'm sick of the Matrix.

How do you know this is not the Matrix?

236 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:01:28pm

re: #218 jcm

Time is an interesting concept. We humans have difficulty grasping an abstract reference of it. But, you are correct, from the point of view of the prophets, everything is written in past tense, and they are writing as observers.

237 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:02:06pm

re: #227 mikeymom

FBV--would you answer my question at 194, please?

217

238 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:02:11pm

re: #225 father_of_10

You're there.

I've been on LGF for 4 years and still haven't hit 2000.

Maybe if I made it a GOAL!

they pile up on the dead threads...lots of people wear a post mantle earned over night...if that's what youre into...numbers mean little imo

239 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:02:19pm

Because it's true, ChargerGirl.

240 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:02:43pm

re: #232 father_of_10

If you knew miss manners, you would jump right into the debate . . . go for it!

Haar 'me sense of civility will not allow it mate. You cannot intelligently debate while cursing at each other.

241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:02:52pm

re: #233 mikeymom

sorry--but didnt you today say you were 19? or am i confusing you with someone else?

It was joking. forgot the context.

242 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:03:17pm
243 Steffan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:03:23pm

re: #168 father_of_10

Comparing Christian fundamentalists with Islam is a stretch.

True. Christians stopped killing each other for heresy a while back (English Civil War, IIRC). There were too many other excuses for them to kill each other; IIRC, after Henry VIII broke with Rome, being a Papist was considered treason, for which there was only one penalty.

To this day, you can not take a Bible or a crucifix, let alone a Star of David, into Saudi Arabia, and praying to any deity but Allah can get you jail time in a country that does not coddle prisoners.

244 mikeymom  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:00pm

re: #241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

ok-sorry--had a mental pix that wasnt correct--so sorry

245 Racer X  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:05pm
246 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:06pm

re: #148 DesertSage

I think it is acceptable. I don't think legitimacy is the right concept in this context.

On the other hand, as an atheist my perspective is a little different, even while we agree on details.

247 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:19pm

re: #215 OldLineTexan

You Ottoman.

Sheesh! Always getting under foot!
Stinky, give #215 the boot!

248 Steffan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:28pm

re: #178 wrenchwench

You need 29.75 more pages....

And remember, they have to be handwritten. It would probably help if you wrote it in Turkish....

249 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:49pm

re: #195 jcm

First off, you quote me a passage from Ecclesiastes, which in itself is a book of Hebrew philosophy, elaborating on the nature of god, as understood by some writer. Secondly, you quote from the Amplified Bible, which is literarily scripture with embedded "opinions."

You say "Revelation is written in the past tense, as having occurred but is prophecy of things yet to come for earth."

No it's not. It was a contemporary work describing the very near future due to the impact of the Romans on that area of the middle east. It has no "duel" meanings, it doesn't pretend to be prophetic, it is "code" that would be recognizable by first century Christians and references the hard time they were having an a hope for a victory with in a short time.

But, I will agree with you that there are indications of timelessness in the Hebrew and Greek texts, but there is nothing in the text that indicates how that eternity fit's into some creators plan.

That part of the story is philosophy, and not supported by the text.

250 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:04:53pm

re: #235 Racer X

How do you know this is not the Matrix?

You ARE in the matrix. You are a tax-battery that poops out votes for the Politico Masters.

251 The Other Les  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:05:01pm

A Scene From The Job Hunt

I just returned home from an informational meeting where the recruiter for the Minnesota Department of Transportation told everyone present that the state government of Minnesota is the largest employer in the state.

She said it as if it was a good thing.

252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:05:15pm

Hey! Over 10K! Yay for me! I have, I think three comments less than Mandy, one less than KT.

253 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:05:16pm

re: #236 rawmuse

Time is an interesting concept. We humans have difficulty grasping an abstract reference of it. But, you are correct, from the point of view of the prophets, everything is written in past tense, and they are writing as observers.

Flipping it another way. Is there any problem with time being another part of creation, like matter space etc...?

We already consider space/time to be interrelated.

254 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:05:23pm

re: #243 Steffan

True. Christians stopped killing each other for heresy a while back (English Civil War, IIRC). There were too many other excuses for them to kill each other; IIRC, after Henry VIII broke with Rome, being a Papist was considered treason, for which there was only one penalty.

To this day, you can not take a Bible or a crucifix, let alone a Star of David, into Saudi Arabia, and praying to any deity but Allah can get you jail time in a country that does not coddle prisoners.

Yes, but Christians still practice torture. How else do you explain those knee bars in the pews?

///

255 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:06:45pm

re: #251 The Other Les

A Scene From The Job Hunt

I just returned home from an informational meeting where the recruiter for the Minnesota Department of Transportation told everyone present that the state government of Minnesota is the largest employer in the state.

She said it as if it was a good thing.

Sick, isn't it. Join us... we're moving to out of state soon.

256 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:07:28pm

re: #219 buzzsawmonkey

Carbon dating? Isn't that where you give her a Big Diamond Ring?

Using a carat to attract the Bunny?

257 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:07:52pm

re: #254 Thanos

Yes, but Christians still practice torture. How else do you explain those knee bars in the pews?

///

As our priest told us once, talking about repairing the kneelers in our church which are "off" just enough to cause excrutiating back pain - pain is part of the Catholic experience.

258 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:09:06pm

re: #218 jcm

One can have speculative discussions about time and multidimensonal intersections without bringing god into it. I don't really see the connection and reading it into the scriptures is simply imaginative fantasy bordering on Nostradamus analysis.

259 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:10:55pm

re: #254 Thanos

Yes, but Christians still practice torture. How else do you explain those knee bars in the pews?

///

As a kid, I always thought it was the interminable sermons on Communion Sundays.

260 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:11:10pm

Of course then there is the leftist religion

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

261 Palandine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:11:11pm

re: #251 The Other Les

A Scene From The Job Hunt

I just returned home from an informational meeting where the recruiter for the Minnesota Department of Transportation told everyone present that the state government of Minnesota is the largest employer in the state.

She said it as if it was a good thing.

It'll get larger. Mr. Obama has FDR-style infrastructure projects coming up.

/hold onto your wallets

262 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:11:18pm

re: #258 Naso Tang

One can have speculative discussions about time and multidimensonal intersections without bringing god into it. I don't really see the connection and reading it into the scriptures is simply imaginative fantasy bordering on Nostradamus analysis.

That's what I was saying in re: #249 Walter L. Newton

263 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:11:41pm

re: #249 Walter L. Newton

I used the Amplified because I haven't found a good online interlinear, which is more accurate. Amplified's opinion tries to capture meanings lost in translations.

In my experience Rev. is much deeper than that. But that's a whole other kettle of fish. I don't agree with much of main stream Christianities understanding of Rev.

Like I said, it's merely for discussion. It would take a Phd level dissertation to begin to flesh it out, and life times work to make sense of it.

I've got to go kill some dinner...

BBIW

264 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:11:50pm
265 leftover54  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:12:11pm

Nov 24, 1859, Charles Darwin, a British naturalist, published "On the Origin of Species." It was the paper in which he explained his theory of evolution through the process of natural selection.
/just sayin'

266 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:12:35pm

re: #221 LoFlyer

/How to influence friends and make enemies! I mean like how can anyone respond to such a comment. You leave no room for debate, mate

Cental issue: moral equivalency.

267 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:13:08pm

re: #258 Naso Tang

One can have speculative discussions about time and multidimensonal intersections without bringing god into it. I don't really see the connection and reading it into the scriptures is simply imaginative fantasy bordering on Nostradamus analysis.

Before I run for dinner...

True, but the obverse is also true, you don't have to exclude God.

268 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:13:12pm

re: #254 Thanos

Yes, but Christians still practice torture. How else do you explain those knee bars in the pews?

///

I just watched an interview with Sarah Palin...being interviewed while turkeys are being slaughtered in the background. LOL PETA is gonna have a field day with this!
OMG

269 tommygum  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:13:28pm

WTF? AHHHHHH AHHHHHHHH It's Skeletor! I thought he was gone! Is this a bad dream or what?

270 gop_patriot  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:13:35pm

OT:

Don't mind me; just testing my new in-honor-of-Thanksgiving avatar.

/it's a little on-topic, it does mention God... ;)
//off to eat dinner

271 dmjboose  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:13:45pm

kant + islam = point #17

I like what they did there. It's very classy.
/sarc

272 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:13:54pm

re: #264 buzzsawmonkey

Everyone knows that large-carat diamonds of matchless water are the only true healing crystals.

You must be referring to a New Age something-or-other. Goes right over my head. Sorry.

273 itellu3times  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:14:36pm

The idea that we only know our senses, and/or that our senses are not explainable in material terms, does not disprove the material world behaves this way or that.

It may allow for forces other than the material, but it does not demonstrate them at work or identify what they are.

so, cancel ol' #17

274 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:14:45pm

re: #262 Walter L. Newton

Thanks. I would have missed it. You sound like you know something about some things. Me, I just use Occam a lot.

275 tommygum  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:14:45pm

re: #270 gop_patriot

Les Nessman!

276 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:15:00pm

re: #272 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You must be referring to a New Age something-or-other. Goes right over my head. Sorry.

um diamonds of matchless water ?

277 father_of_10  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:15:07pm

re: #238 albusteve

they pile up on the dead threads...lots of people wear a post mantle earned over night...if that's what youre into...numbers mean little imo

You know what numbers mean a lot to me? The ones BEFORE the decimal point and AFTER the $ sign.

278 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:15:43pm

Genetic evolution is a simple but very high performance (efficient) optimization algorithm to a great extent based on randomness and only directed by selection pressure. It works REALLY well, so well, the algorithm itself must be divine (wink).

279 Cheechako  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:16:11pm

After reading this thread my head hurts. Can I have a Hallway Pass so I can go see the School Nurse to see if she has any booze, er headache medicine?

280 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:16:16pm

re: #266 MandyManners

Cental issue: moral equivalency.

That is an issue but you cannot engage your opponents in debate by grossly insulting them. I have an extremely good dictionary of curses left over from six years in the fleet. But to use them in debate is counterproductive, I suspect you are not interested in debate but are more into domination...

281 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:16:18pm

re: #197 Charles

Good luck with that.

I think that happened in the USSR. God is dead, says Niezstche (or however, the hell he spelled it). Niezstche is dead - God.
I agree with the Lizard that truth wills out, whether we like it or not. I was an atheist almost all my life, but then had a very odd, transformatioal experience which changed my mind and my life. No, it was nothing to do with church, preachers, near-death experience, or a fox hole conversion.
I feel quite sorry for the creationists who are so desperately sincere--and for evolutionists who are so desperately afraid of challenge. Darwin's dead. We've learned a lot since Darwin, for goodness sake. We keep finding out more and more about "creation" and we should have evolved enough to think that old mythologies are metaphorical and attempts at explaining our mysterious origins. I think there's plenty of room for religion and science to co-exist, as long as they don't try canceling one another. We really don't know enough about either--and that, I believe, is the problem. I say, leave it alone--we survived just fine when creationism was what EVERYONE (okay, that's an absolute) believed. Art survived when all artists could do was do bespoke work--paint religious-themed works. Putting things into perspective by looking at some of the pictures taken of earth from the moon, we should look up with our eyes wide open--as well as our minds--to all possibilities. Relgion for me has been a good guide in interpreting and negotiating the moral maze. I really do feel free in this faith--and grateful.

282 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:16:23pm

The Suicide Bomb Cult that lived near Charles

283 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:17:05pm

re: #279 Cheechako

After reading this thread my head hurts. Can I have a Hallway Pass so I can go see the School Nurse to see if she has any booze, er headache medicine?

All you can get there is weak tea, sorry.

284 DesertSage  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:17:44pm

re: #246 Naso Tang

I think it is acceptable. I don't think legitimacy is the right concept in this context.

On the other hand, as an atheist my perspective is a little different, even while we agree on details.

I very much appreciate your honesty and your respectfulness.

285 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:17:47pm

re: #276 Wishing

um diamonds of matchless water ?

DAMN!
Now I know there's something there, and I'm drawing a @�%@$ BLANK!

/EMBARRASSING!

286 USBeast  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:18:12pm

re: #206 MandyManners

Fuck you and your horse named Moral Equivalency.

Whew! Three down dings and a "Fuck you" from Mandy!

Mandy dear, I made no comment about "Moral" anything. Facts are facts and all the provable facts as to how we became the beings we are are on Chuck Darwin's side.

As to "Moral Equivalency" I never said a word against the Judeo/Christian culture that gave us the morals we seem so eager to throw away. My complaint is with those who refuse to recognize the facts that continually provide the proof that Darwin was right.

I'll take facts over "Truth" any day.

287 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:18:17pm

re: #280 LoFlyer

I suspect you are not interested in debate but are more into domination...

NTTAWWT

288 gop_patriot  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:18:22pm

re: #275 tommygum

:) Actually the boss is the one who says that line, that's him with Herb Tarlick (sp?) in the avatar. What a great episode though, huh? :D

289 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:18:46pm

re: #267 jcm

Before I run for dinner...

True, but the obverse is also true, you don't have to exclude God.

No one doesn't, but the objective of solving equation is usually to simplify by removing unnecessary variables and constants, not add them just to make the solution easier.

I think Einstein taught us something about that.

Now I have to retire early. Think I'm getting a cold. Cough.

290 Salem  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:19:13pm

Believe that there is an alternate universe where everything is just peachy.

291 Outrider  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:19:14pm
...I fear that these convictions will convince the government of the justness of their overall cause but I view the convictions as compelling the opposite conclusion,” he said. “To spend millions of dollars in time and expenses to prosecute people who were of no real threat to anyone, under the banner of a terrorism case, is a waste of precious federal resources.


This is the mentality that irritates me. Unless there is a high dollar payoff, then there is no reason to prosecute? Crap! That kind of rationalization could be used on any number of crimes to avoid prosecution.

No real threat to anyone? Where does he think that money went and what does he think it was spent on? Falafels for everyone?

292 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:19:15pm

OT: Return of the recipies

Caribbean Lamb Curry (serves 4-6)

2 pounds boned leg of lamb
4 tablespoons of curry powder
3 garlic cloves, crushed
1 large onion, chopped
4 thyme springs or 3 teaspoon dried thyme
3 bay leaves
1 teaspoon ground allspice
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
4 tablespoons butter or margarine
3.5 cups of stock or water
1 fresh hot chili pepper, chopped
cooked rice, to serve
cilantro springs, to garnish

Step 1: cut the meat into 2-inch cubes, discarding excess fat and gristle

Step 2: place the lamb, curry powder, garlic, onion, thyme, bay leaves, allspice, and oil into a large bowl and mix. Marinate in the fridge for 3 hours or overnight.

Step 3: melt the butter or margarine in a large heavy saucepan, add the seasoned lamb and fry over a moderate heat for about 10 minutes, turning meat frequently.

Step 4: stir in the stock and chili pepper and bring to a boil. Reduce the heat, cover the pan, and simmer for 1.5 hours, or until meat is tender. Serve with rice, garnish with Cilantro.

293 gmsc  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:19:19pm

re: #270 gop_patriot

OT:

Don't mind me; just testing my new in-honor-of-Thanksgiving avatar.

/it's a little on-topic, it does mention God... ;)
//off to eat dinner

re: #275 tommygum

Les Nessman!

Here's the episode itself: WKRP - Turkeys Away

294 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:19:39pm

Hot Chicken Curry

Serves 4

2 Tablespoons corn oil
¼ teaspoon fenugreek seeds
¼ teaspoon onion seeds
2 onions, chopped
½ teaspoon garlic pulp
½ teaspoon ginger pulp
1 teaspoon ground coriander
1 teaspoon chili powder
1 teaspoon salt
1 ¾ cups canned tomatoes (or fresh if you prefer)
2 tablespoons lemon juice
2 ½ cups chicken, skinned, boned and cubed
3 fresh green chilies, chopped
½ red bell pepper, cut into chunks
½ green bell pepper, cut into chunks
fresh cilantro sprigs

Step 1: in a medium sauce pan, heat the oil and fry the fenugreek and onion seeds until the turn a shade darker. Ad the chopped onions, garlic and ginger and fry for about 5 minutes until the onions turn golden brown, turn heat to very low.

Step 2. Mix the ground coriander, chili powder, salt, canned tomatoes and lemon juice in a separate bowl.

Step 3. pour this mix into the saucepan. Turn heat to medium for about 3 minutes while stir-frying.

Step 4. Add chicken and stir fry for 5-7 minutes.

Step 5. Add the fresh cilantro, green chilis and red and green bell peppers. Lower heat , cover saucepan and simmer for about 10 minutes until chicken is cooked.

Step 6. Serve hot, with cilantro sprigs

295 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:20:25pm

Balti Potatoes:

Serves 4

3 table spoons corn oil
½ teaspoon white cumin seeds
3 curry leaves
1 teaspoon dried crushed read chilies
½ teaspoon mixed onion, mustard and fenugreek seeds
½ teaspoon fennel seeds
3 garlic cloves
½ teaspoon shredded ginger
2 onions, sliced
6 new potatoes, sliced thinly
1 tablespoon chopped fresh cilantro
1 fresh red chili, seeded and sliced
1 fresh green chili, seeded and sliced

Step 1: heat the oil in a deep round-bottomed frying pan or Karaki. Low the heat slightly and add the cumin seeds, curry leaves, dried red chilies, mixed onion, mustard & fenugreek seeds, fennel seeds, garlic cloves and ginger. Fry for 1 minute, then add the onions, and fry for 5 more minutes, or until onions are a golden brown

Step 2: Add the potatoes, cilantro, and fresh red and green chilies and mix well. Cover the pan tightly with a lid or foil, making sure that foil does not touch the food. Cook over low heat for 7 minutes, or until the potatoes are tender.

Step 3: remove the pan from the heat, take off the foil and serve hot.

296 Naso Tang  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:20:39pm

re: #284 DesertSage

I very much appreciate your honesty and your respectfulness.

Thanks. Same here. Good night for today.

297 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:21:24pm

re: #292 Jewels (AKA Julian)

OT: Return of the recipies

Caribbean Lamb Curry (serves 4-6)

2 pounds boned leg of lamb
4 tablespoons of curry powder
3 garlic cloves, crushed
1 large onion, chopped
4 thyme springs or 3 teaspoon dried thyme
3 bay leaves
1 teaspoon ground allspice
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
4 tablespoons butter or margarine
3.5 cups of stock or water
1 fresh hot chili pepper, chopped
cooked rice, to serve
cilantro springs, to garnish

Step 1: cut the meat into 2-inch cubes, discarding excess fat and gristle

Step 2: place the lamb, curry powder, garlic, onion, thyme, bay leaves, allspice, and oil into a large bowl and mix. Marinate in the fridge for 3 hours or overnight.

Step 3: melt the butter or margarine in a large heavy saucepan, add the seasoned lamb and fry over a moderate heat for about 10 minutes, turning meat frequently.

Step 4: stir in the stock and chili pepper and bring to a boil. Reduce the heat, cover the pan, and simmer for 1.5 hours, or until meat is tender. Serve with rice, garnish with Cilantro.

Sounds great mate, I'll be over in an hour!

298 Perplexed  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:21:58pm

re: #251 The Other Les

A Scene From The Job Hunt

I just returned home from an informational meeting where the recruiter for the Minnesota Department of Transportation told everyone present that the state government of Minnesota is the largest employer in the state.

She said it as if it was a good thing.

So what does the people's state of Minnesota produce with all of those workers? I mean it must produce something otherwise it leaches off of those who do produce. FYI I do live in Mn. Joe Soucheray calls Mn the state where everything is illegal. I remember when MN had thriving industry and businesses (i.e. IBM, 3M, Green Giant Vegetables, etc). Can't really say that now.

299 gmsc  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:22:41pm

re: #275 tommygum

Les Nessman!

One of my favorite WKRP lines: "Alright, fellow babies! It's time for more music and Les Nessman!"

Trivia time: How Many of WKRP's Contest Songs Can You Name In 5 Minutes?

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:22:53pm

re: #295 Jewels (AKA Julian)

You have just reminded me that it's 8:20 and I haven't eaten supper!
AAUUGGGHHH!

301 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:23:14pm

My fave recipe.
Take ripe tomatoes from the garden. Eat them over the sink with the juice running down your elbows.

302 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:23:36pm

re: #233 mikeymom

sorry--but didnt you today say you were 19? or am i confusing you with someone else?

Now I remember. Walter and I were talking about tv, he asked me if I was "like 20". It went on from there.

I'm an old fart. No offense taken.

I do spend a lot of time here.

303 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:03pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

buwahahahaahha!

304 whiterasta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:07pm

re: #292 Jewels (AKA Julian)

My friend, when you say Caribbean and lamb in the same breath, you are actually talking about goat!

Nothing wrong with goat, I was raised on it !

If you are anywhere in the Caribbean and order mutton, you are actually getting goat.

305 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:18pm

re: #301 rawmuse

My fave recipe.
Take ripe tomatoes from the garden. Eat them over the sink with the juice running down your elbows.

Grandaddy always washed them first. Oh, and he had a shaker of salt, but that wa before everything killed you.

/

306 computerdude  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:28pm

Mike Huckabee should enter the contest, he'd fit right in.

307 hazzyday  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:51pm

"It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns. This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter."

Notes: He says Allah is the important person here not the Christian God. I believe when push comes to shove, he will see the Discovery Institute as not valid at all.

This is where he grafts his ideas of faith onto science and attempt to legitimatize by just the fact that he can connect them. Using the term "totally discredited" only reminds me of the logic of Baghdad Bob and again reinforces the idea that if you lie enough some people will believe you. There is a disjointedness here.

I think science says that there is more to the universe then matter.

I think the term creationist is still not well understood in the general and the specific arguements. All content related to it should have a definition, a description, and an example.

308 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:54pm

re: #301 rawmuse

My fave recipe.
Take ripe tomatoes from the garden. Eat them over the sink with the juice running down your elbows.

Didn't you even try eating them with your hands first?

309 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:24:55pm

re: #301 rawmuse

My fave recipe.
Take ripe tomatoes from the garden. Eat them over the sink with the juice running down your elbows.

*grin* ... that brings back memories!

310 Maximu§  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:25:28pm

re: #297 LoFlyer

Sounds great mate, I'll be over in an hour!

Make that two and I'll bring the beer.

311 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:26:16pm

re: #270 gop_patriot

OT:

Don't mind me; just testing my new in-honor-of-Thanksgiving avatar.

/it's a little on-topic, it does mention God... ;)
//off to eat dinner

I want that button!

312 gregg  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:26:31pm

re: #298 Perplexed

So what does the people's state of Minnesota produce with all of those workers? I mean it must produce something otherwise it leaches off of those who do produce. FYI I do live in Mn. Joe Soucheray calls Mn the state where everything is illegal. I remember when MN had thriving industry and businesses (i.e. IBM, 3M, Green Giant Vegetables, etc). Can't really say that now.

Not to be picky, but I think the correct saying is "Minnesota, the state where nothing is allowed".

313 Outrider  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:26:35pm

re: #291 Outrider

This is the mentality that irritates me. Unless there is a high dollar payoff, then there is no reason to prosecute? Crap! That kind of rationalization could be used on any number of crimes to avoid prosecution.

No real threat to anyone? Where does he think that money went and what does he think it was spent on? Falafels for everyone?

Wow! Posted on wrong thread- that sucks.

Sorry about that folks.... nothing to see here... keep moving along now. ;-)>

314 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:26:59pm

re: #303 Jewels (AKA Julian)

buwahahahaahha!

I just put a frozen dinner in the microwave.

/trying to cultivate sympathy ... AND an invite for a home-cooked meal!
(-:

315 coquimbojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:27:12pm

re: #304 whiterasta

My friend, when you say Caribbean and lamb in the same breath, you are actually talking about goat!

Nothing wrong with goat, I was raised on it !

If you are anywhere in the Caribbean and order mutton, you are actually getting goat.

Can't get enough of that goaty goodness. Had some goat curry the other day.... I also like a nice birria with goat....

316 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:27:17pm

Jamaican Jerk Marinade

1/2 c. whole Jamaican pimento berries
3 Scotch Bonnet chiles, seeds and stems
removed, chopped
10 scallions, chopped
1/2 c. chopped onion
4 cloves garlic, chopped
4 bay leaves, crushed
1 3-inch piece of ginger, peeled and chopped
1/3 c. fresh thyme
1 t. nutmeg
1 t. ground cinnamon
1 t. salt
1 T. black pepper
1/4 c. vegetable oil
1/4 c. lime juice

Roast berries in dry skillet until aromatic, about 2 minutes. Remove
and crush into powder.
Put powder and all ingredients into blender. Remove and store in a
jar in refrigerator.


Jamaican Jerk Barbecued Ribs

1 cup Jerk Marinade (1)
1 tablespoon Sugar
2 tablespoons Basalmic Vinegar
4 pounds Pork Spareribs
Commercial BBQ Sauce

Combine marinade, sugar and vinegar. Marinate ribs for 4+ hours. The
longer the hotter. Set drip pan in grill to provide for indirect
heat. Use a low fire. Cook for 1 1/2 hours turning and brushing
frequently with the marinade. Brush ribs with BBQ sauce during the
last 15 minutes of cooking.

317 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:27:19pm

re: #309 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*grin* ... that brings back memories!

I think I got that from "The White Trash Cookbook". Which, BTW, is a hoot.
The thing about southern cooking is that you take something which is already a finished, complete food product, like Ritz Crackers, and it becomes an ingredient.

318 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:27:35pm

re: #298 Perplexed

So what does the people's state of Minnesota produce with all of those workers?


They administer welfare (#2 budget item at ELEVEN BILLION DOLLARS) and then there's the people that provide administrative services to the welfare administrators....

319 leftover54  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:27:39pm

Geeeeez Louise - I did a quick search of the thread for the word "origin" prior to posting #265 and get nadda. I post #265. Before going back up to #1 to begin reading/scrolling down through the comments I sez to myself: "Self, maybe try "1859" (even though it was too late to do anything about posting #265, but hey, I'm weird like that...or is that wired like that ? hmmm....) and sure as BHO is the POTUS elect, the search returns a hit for
"1859" (#226).
I HATE when that happens ! Sorry. WHY the HELL didn't I get a "hit" for "origin" ? Yes, I spelled it correctly:
"Origin" "O", "R","I", "G", "G", "N"....... right ? So whats the problem ?
oh...
/just sayin'...

320 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:28:06pm

re: #306 computerdude

He's too busy dissing Palin. Must need ratings, or something.

321 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:28:14pm

re: #317 rawmuse

I think I got that from "The White Trash Cookbook". Which, BTW, is a hoot.
The thing about southern cooking is that you take something which is already a finished, complete food product, like Ritz Crackers, and it becomes an ingredient.

Well of COURSE!
*grin*

322 Truck Monkey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:28:34pm

re: #251 The Other Les

A Scene From The Job Hunt

I just returned home from an informational meeting where the recruiter for the Minnesota Department of Transportation told everyone present that the state government of Minnesota is the largest employer in the state.

She said it as if it was a good thing.

Because they tax the hell out of successful business and drive them out of state! MN is/was home to a lot of great companies.

323 Maximu§  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:28:43pm

re: #314 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I just put a frozen dinner in the microwave.

/trying to cultivate sympathy ... AND an invite for a home-cooked meal!
(-:

The Hungry Man Salsberry steak meal is pretty good.

324 whiterasta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:28:57pm

An old Jamaican recipe:

Traditional rum cake:

[Link: www.hotbars.net...]

325 frank14  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:29:31pm

re: #205 Thanos


The evolutionist wackos lost me when I found out that Darwin's evangelist, Ernst Haeckel, was a fraud. As soon as they show me where information increases through evolution I'll be on board...ROTFLOL!

326 gregg  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:29:34pm

Sorry if this has already been posted: Marine Makes Insurgents Pay the Price

During the battle, the designated marksman single handedly thwarted a company-sized enemy RPG and machinegun ambush by reportedly killing 20 enemy fighters with his devastatingly accurate precision fire. He selflessly exposed himself time and again to intense enemy fire during a critical point in the eight-hour battle for Shewan in order to kill any enemy combatants who attempted to engage or maneuver on the Marines in the kill zone. What made his actions even more impressive was the fact that he didn’t miss any shots, despite the enemies’ rounds impacting within a foot of his fighting position.

“I was in my own little world,” the young corporal said. “I wasn’t even aware of a lot of the rounds impacting near my position, because I was concentrating so hard on making sure my rounds were on target.”

After calling for close-air support, the small group of Marines pushed forward and broke the enemies’ spirit as many of them dropped their weapons and fled the battlefield. At the end of the battle, the Marines had reduced an enemy stronghold, killed more than 50 insurgents and wounded several more.

“I didn’t realize how many bad guys there were until we had broken through the enemies’ lines and forced them to retreat. It was roughly 250 insurgents against 30 of us,” the corporal said. “It was a good day for the Marine Corps. We killed a lot of bad guys, and none of our guys were seriously injured.”

327 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:30:16pm

re: #320 Slumbering Behemoth

He's too busy dissing Palin. Must need ratings, or something.

Palin sipping coffee while Toms are being slaughtered...well, I love Palin, but this was CRUDE. LOLOL Icky, Sarah!

328 yochanan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:30:49pm

remember the Scopes monkey trial well if i was a monkey i would not want to be a ancestor of the current crop of Muslims esp the Muslim jihadists in question

329 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:30:54pm

re: #322 Truck Monkey

Because they tax the hell out of successful business and drive them out of state! MN is/was home to a lot of great companies.

There are still many Fortune 500's here, more than most people think, but they are itching to get out the door ASAP.

330 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:30:57pm

Are we sharing recipies? I'll trade a venison anything for a really good sweet potato beyond the normal southern type with pecans and marshmallows...

Venison pulled Bar-b-que? Southern Fried Venison steak? Super easy slow cooker venison stew (works with beef, too)? Tell me what you want!

331 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:31:03pm

re: #323 Maximu§

The Hungry Man Salsberry steak meal is pretty good.

Yes.
Marie Callender's tend to be more tasty.

/looking LONGINGLY at Jewels' recipes ... DROOLING!

332 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:31:26pm

re: #311 MandyManners

I want that button!

Mandy, just want to say that I respect you, but your debating skills depend upon domination by intimidation and curses. That is not western debate!
/Tone it down mate, and 'me nic is blue!

333 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:31:28pm

re: #280 LoFlyer

That is an issue but you cannot engage your opponents in debate by grossly insulting them. I have an extremely good dictionary of curses left over from six years in the fleet. But to use them in debate is counterproductive, I suspect you are not interested in debate but are more into domination...


How did you ever guess?

334 Outrider  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:31:48pm

re: #326 gregg

Sorry if this has already been posted: Marine Makes Insurgents Pay the Price

Always the best of days in the military:

It was a good day for the Marine Corps. We killed a lot of bad guys, and none of our guys were seriously injured.”
335 mean Gene  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:32:12pm

Why can't he write his own sequel?
Is he so vapid he needs ghostwritten stuff to crib from?
He'll probably get a ton of entries, too.

336 The Other Les  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:32:20pm

re: #255 Max Darkside

Sick, isn't it. Join us... we're moving to out of state soon.

The problem is that NO ONE in the the private sector is willing to hire me.

337 Computerdude  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:32:25pm

If Sarah Palin could write, she could have entered this contest. She'd likely have much in common with the other entrants - you know, I can hear her voice right now:

"God just snapped his fingers oh gosh darn *wink* and the Earth dontcha see gosh just popped inta bein' *wink*. Drop out of school kids, what as gosh darn science ever done for ya, doncha know." - Sarah Palin, 2012 Presidential campaign interview with Katie Couric.

338 whiterasta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:32:41pm

re: #316 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Never mind all that botheration, buy ready made jerk seasoning from these guys:

[Link: www.walkerswood.com...]

Blood-fire hot and oh so good!

339 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:32:48pm

These are things others have written on, of course, but since we are, once again, talking about creationism - -

Science is man's attempt to find out things. The scientific method is devised to prevent just making up stuff and calling it science, particularly due to preconceived ideas. To say that if we don't have the answer for something that this proves that "God" did it, is something we can always say ad infinitum, until we "know everything". This is all "creationism" is. Another weakness of creationism is that, although not necessarily formally, it assumes a certain definition for God. There is no way to connect observations in biology to someone's specific idea of God.

There is the objection that evolution is "only a theory", and that there has been fraud in favor of evolution, and then the endless list of things we don't know the answer to. Answer: Most areas of science are just like this, on every count. So is most everything, including the interpretation of The Bible.

There is the discussion of whether The Bible meant 6 literal days. I think we can accept the idea that it didn't if people wish to advance it. I don't think Bishop Wilberforce figures into today's debate, nor do evolutionists need to grasp at straws to defend their views. I think we can accept the idea that "God created evolution", if God exists. We are not debating the existence or nature of God.

People that promote teaching "creationism" in science class have apparently forgotten what science is, namely, a method of finding out things. The type of conclusion that creationism forces violates that method in more than one way. First, although we can form hypotheses, we have to be genuinely ready to abandon them, and they should be theoretically disprovable. Second, it is not a conclusion to say "we don't know this, therefore, this is the conclusion. I think there are many more violations.

What evolution really conflicts with is a specific chronology in The Bible, which very few Christian groups have, not only the six days thing, but those who require that there be no real Homo Sapiens before a bit over 6000 years ago. Scientific chronology and The Great Flood is another such conflict: The Flood was supposed to have happened about 4500 years ago, yet, for example, there are trees, in the United States that are older than that, the Bristlecone Pine, that show no signs of being immersed in salt water for the better part of a year, nor is there any reason to believe it could survive such immersion.

Without belief in specific conflicting chronology, the Christian is free to believe in, God, Jesus, and the whole nine yards, in spite of anything discovered by science. One's belief could be essentially supernatural or a metaphor representing whatever it is about the Universe that accounts for the property of mind, which is in evidence.

To politically force "creationism" in science class is to distort, and therefore diminish, what science is, and can do. Using political force to enforce any religiously based views is destructive to the idea of being free of an overly intrusive government. We may not like what some people do with respect to our beliefs, but if we force them to conform, we are giving another source of power to a future totalitarian government, which is now the biggest potential problem of mankind.

340 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:14pm

Chinese Barbecued Pork

Serves 4 to 6

1.5 lbs pork tenderloin (2-3 tenderloins)
1 medium rib celery, finely chopped
1 medium carrot, finely chopped
1 medium onion, finely chopped
1 tablespoon minced fresh ginger
5 strips fresh tangerine or orange zest (each 2 x .3 inches; removed with a vegetable peeler)
.67 cup rice wine or dry sherry
.33 cup soy sauce
.33 cup pure maple syrup
2 tablespoons Asian (dark) sesame oil

1.trim the tenderloins of excess fat or sinew. Mix the celery, carror, onion, ginger, zest, sherry, soy sauce, maple syrup, and 1 tablespoon of sesame oil in a baking dish and mix. Ad the tenderloins, coating them. Cover and let marinate in the refrigerator 24-48 hrs, turning occasionally.
2.preheat over or grill to medium high.
3.Remove tenderloins from the marinade and dry with paper towels. Strain marinade into a small saucepan and bring to a boil over a medium-high heat. Boil until thick and syrupy (5-8 minutes).
4.Brush tenderloins with remaining 1 tablespoon of soy sauce. Arrange tenderloins on hot grate and grill, turning with tongs until pork is brown and cooked through (16 minutes or so). Brush with heated marinade after about 10 minutes.
5.transfer tenderloins to cutting board and let coil for 5 minutes. Cut as needed.

341 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:19pm

re: #326 gregg

Sorry if this has already been posted: Marine Makes Insurgents Pay the Price

Semper Fi!

342 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:25pm

re: #337 Computerdude

Where is Mandy? You need a big whack. She has NEVER said her religious views should be the views of others.

343 Max Darkside  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:29pm

re: #336 The Other Les

The problem is that NO ONE in the the private sector is willing to hire me.

Fully indoctrinated into the Borg, are you? You've been assimilated by Gummit?

344 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:36pm

re: #333 MandyManners

How did you ever guess?

Love it! ROFL!
Mandy, only you could get away with that! WTG!

345 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:39pm

re: #337 Computerdude

If Sarah Palin could write, she could have entered this contest. She'd likely have much in common with the other entrants - you know, I can hear her voice right now:

"God just snapped his fingers oh gosh darn *wink* and the Earth dontcha see gosh just popped inta bein' *wink*. Drop out of school kids, what as gosh darn science ever done for ya, doncha know." - Sarah Palin, 2012 Presidential campaign interview with Katie Couric.

Dream on, dream on.

346 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:46pm

I am what you call an evolutionist with questions. I believe that there is an overwhelming body of irrefutable scientific evidence showing evolution takes place. I also believe that there are some very big questions about evolution that have not yet been answered and pose major scientific challenges to evolution as the sole explanation for life as we know it:

How did eyes evolve? In particular, the integration of the central nervous system with the optic cells of the retina?

Once you have answered THAT you can move to the bonus round, explain how DNA evolved and how the self-replicating encrypted strings that make up DNA evolved? How is it possible in nature for DNA modifications to take place from environmental factors? It is one thing to assert that the squirrels that ran faster got away from the predators, and passed on their fast genes but there should be hundreds of evolutionary stages of squirrels, AustraloSquirrelicus and Peking Squirrel, there is jsut no record to match that hisotry to say nothing of a satisfactory explanation of how quantum leaps of specuies with advanced abilities happened so fast. The speed of evolution has to have happened within the known paleontological dates, for some changes, the evolution would have to have been extremely rapid with almost every generation getting the exact right improvement; yet we see no evidence of cows, dogs or cats evolving at all, so what stops it? In additions there should be examples of failed designs that nevertheless survived.

I also have special questions for creationists:

OK the Creator condemned the world and flooded the earth, which fish died in the flood? If it was a fresh water flood, goodbye oceanic sea life, and if it was a salt water flood, it would definitely have wiped out the fresh water fish.

All of which shows you that no matter how smart people claim to be, no one has all the answers.

347 mean Gene  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:33:51pm

re: #340 Jewels (AKA Julian)

I'm going to try this....soon.

348 Thanos  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:34:15pm

re: #325 frank14

The evolutionist wackos lost me when I found out that Darwin's evangelist, Ernst Haeckel, was a fraud. As soon as they show me where information increases through evolution I'll be on board...ROTFLOL!

But that's already been shown. Our DNA contains distinct additions of viral RNA from prehistoric times, we might not understand yet what it all means, but you can't deny it's "information".

349 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:34:35pm

re: #333 MandyManners

How did you ever guess?

Whoo-Hoo!

350 Outrider  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:35:00pm

re: #337 Computerdude

If Sarah Palin could write, she could have entered this contest. She'd likely have much in common with the other entrants - you know, I can hear her voice right now:

"God just snapped his fingers oh gosh darn *wink* and the Earth dontcha see gosh just popped inta bein' *wink*. Drop out of school kids, what as gosh darn science ever done for ya, doncha know." - Sarah Palin, 2012 Presidential campaign interview with Katie Couric.


Got that bigoted thing working for you do you?

351 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:35:43pm

re: #333 MandyManners

How did you ever guess?

Don't be getting us guys all disoriented here -

352 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:35:53pm

Serves 8 for appetizers, 4 as entrée

2 lbs boneless pork loin or tenderlion
1 medium onion, finely diced
3 garlic cloves, minced
3 tablespoons, minced fresh flat-leaf (Italian) parsley
1 tablespoon Spanish Paprika
.5 teaspoon hot pepper flakes
.5 teaspoon ground cumin
.5 teaspoon ground coriander
.5 teaspoon dried oregano
.25 teaspoon saffron threads, ground
4 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
2 tablespoons red wine vinegar
2 tablespoons dry sherry or white wine
1 teaspoon salt
.5 teaspoon fresh ground black pepper

Step 1: cut the pork into .75 inch cubes. Combine remaining ingredients except 2 tablespoons oil into large non-reactive baking dish. Ad meat and toss ingredients to coat, then marinate, covered in the refrigerator for 4-6 hours, or overnight if needed (the longer the soak, the spicier)

Step 2: Preheat your grill (or oven) to high.

Step 3: when ready to cook, put the cubes onto skewers. Oil the grill (or oven grill mate), the arrange the kebabs on the hot grate. Cook the pork until it is browned on all sides (2-3 minutes) and cooked through, 8-12 minutes in all, brushing now and again with the 2 tablespoons oil. Serve hot

353 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:36:23pm

re: #337 Computerdude

If Sarah Palin could write, she could have entered this contest. She'd likely have much in common with the other entrants - you know, I can hear her voice right now:

"God just snapped his fingers oh gosh darn *wink* and the Earth dontcha see gosh just popped inta bein' *wink*. Drop out of school kids, what as gosh darn science ever done for ya, doncha know." - Sarah Palin, 2012 Presidential campaign interview with Katie Couric.

You are offensive. Palin is a working governor. She is smarter than you will ever hope to be. And if you continue hearing voices, it might be time for a tune up.
Asshat.

354 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:36:26pm
Electric signals reach us by way of our senses, and the image that forms for us in our brains consists solely of these signals. But we see highly colored, vivid, active, three-dimensional and perfectly sharp images, hear perfectly clear sounds and perceive a flawless outside world. But all these are merely perceptions. It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns. This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter.


We do not see or hear perfectly. Any number of "optical illusions" demonstrate that our vision (and hearing, there are audio illusions too) can be fooled. What our `eyes' (brain, really) make of the photons that hit the eye can be different from what is really on the page, when we check more closely. Now, would that misperception be the work of the soul? Or the brain, evolved to interpret visual cues against a default context that works most of the time?

Darwinist philosophy? Darwin was a scientist. Darwinist science holds only that life developed from simple beginnings, splitting off into more and more species as time went by, all driven by the net effect of three forces: fecundity, which generates more young than can all reach sexual maturity, random variation, as offspring are not identical in every last respect to their parents, and natural selection, which causes chance variations that happen to be adaptive to prosper and multiply, and chance variations that are maladaptive to die out.

There is no necessary or fundamental conflict between this scientific observation about the fossil and DNA-recorded history of life on earth, and religious faith, including the belief in the soul and in an immaterial world. "Darwinists" do not insist on the nonexistence of the latter, nor on its existence. Such questions are beyond the orbit of science.

The essay contest organizers characterize Darwinism has having caused enormous harm to mankind. Have we polluted the bloodline? Contributed bad seed? Are we offspring of pigs and apes? (A folk Darwinism is evident in common modes of speech. Darwin merely made scientific that which had always been to some degree apparent to herdsmen and farmers, including Jacob, if we come right down to it. )

Shall these verses, too, be deemed Godless Darwinism?

On the other hand, what harm does it do to argue that the material world is all there is? If it were true, would that make it a good idea for everybody to do whatever he liked? Or would we still have laws to punish robbery, rape, and murder, and deter those who feared that punishment? We seem to need these laws, for even in the most pious of ages, there have always been those who think nothing of their soul, but calculate only risk and gain, and that, but poorly.

355 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:36:30pm

re: #350 Outrider

When he sees Palin/ArmyWife 2012 he will be sorry, now won't he?

356 The Other Les  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:36:46pm

re: #298 Perplexed

So what does the people's state of Minnesota produce with all of those workers? I mean it must produce something otherwise it leaches off of those who do produce. FYI I do live in Mn. Joe Soucheray calls Mn the state where everything is illegal. I remember when MN had thriving industry and businesses (i.e. IBM, 3M, Green Giant Vegetables, etc). Can't really say that now.

From my other interactions with other parts of the state government I would have to say lots of hot air and CO2.

357 Crux Australis  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:36:56pm

For what it's worth I am an Old Earth Creationist or "progressive" creationist.

Astrophysics and the geological record would tend to discount a young universe and young earth.

The geological record would also discount Darwinian Macro-Evolution. Lack of transitional forms - "missing links"

358 Maximu§  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:37:09pm

re: #257 reine.de.tout

As our priest told us once, talking about repairing the kneelers in our church which are "off" just enough to cause excrutiating back pain - pain is part of the Catholic experience.

Pain and guilt.

359 yochanan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:38:00pm

re: #337 Computerdude

go suck an egg

360 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:38:02pm

and for Turkey day....


Mole Poblano De Guajolote

Serves 6-8

6-8 lbs turkey, cut into serving sized pieces
1 onion, chopped
1 garlic clove, chopped
salt
6 tablespoons lard or corn oil
fresh cilantro and 2 tablespoons toasted sesame seeds to garnish

Sauce
6 dried ancho chilies
4 dried pastille chilies
4 dried mulatto chilies
1 drained canned chipotle chili, seeded and chopped (optional)
2 onions, chopped
2 garlic cloves, chopped
1 lb tomatoes, peeled and chopped
1 stale tortilla, shredded
.33 cup raisins
1 cup almonds, ground
3 tablespoons sesame seeds, ground
.5 tsp coriander seeds, ground
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
.5 teaspoon anise
.25 ground black peppercorns
4 tablespoons lard or corn oil
1.5 oz unsweetened chocolate, broken into cooking squares
1 teaspoon sugar
salt and fresh ground pepper

cooking tip: roasting the dried chilies lightly, taking care not to burn them, brings out the flavour and is worth the extra effort

Step 1: place the turkey peices into a saucepan or flameproof casserole large enough to hold them in one layer comfortably. Add the onion and garlic, and add enough cold water to cover. Season with salt, cover and cook for about an hour or until turkey is tender.

Step 2: meanwhile, put the ancho, pastille and mulatto chilies ina dry frying pan over a low heat and roast them for a few minutes, shaking the pan frequently. Remove the stems and shake out the seeds. Tear the pods into small bits and put these in a bowl. Ad sufficient water to cover and soak, turning from time to time, for 30 minutes or until soft.

Step 3: lift out the turkey pieces and pat dry with paper towels. Reserve the stock in a measuring jug. Heat the lard in a large heavy frying pan and sauté the turkey until lightly brown all over. Transfer to a plate and set aside. Reserve any oil left in the frying pan.

Step 4: transfer the chilies, along with the water in which they have been soaked, intoa food processor, at the chipotle chilie with the onions, garlic, tomatoes, tortilla, raisins, ground almonds and spices. Process until puree. If necessary do this in batches.

Step 5: Add the lard to the fat remaining in the frying pan used for sautéing the turkey. Heat the mix, then add the chili and spice paste. Cook, stirring, for about 5 minutes.

Step 6: transfer the mixture to the pan or casserole in which the turkey was originally cooked. Stir in two cups of the turkey stock (make up the difference with water of necessary). Add the chocolate and season with salt and pepper. Cook over a low heat until the chocolate is melted. Stir in the sugar. Ad the turkey and more stock if needed. Cover the pan and simmer gently for 30 minutes. Serve garnished with fresh cilantro and sprinkled with the sesame seeds.

361 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:38:13pm

re: #352 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Serves 8 for appetizers, 4 as entrée

2 lbs boneless pork loin or tenderlion
1 medium onion, finely diced
3 garlic cloves, minced
3 tablespoons, minced fresh flat-leaf (Italian) parsley
1 tablespoon Spanish Paprika
.5 teaspoon hot pepper flakes
.5 teaspoon ground cumin
.5 teaspoon ground coriander
.5 teaspoon dried oregano
.25 teaspoon saffron threads, ground
4 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
2 tablespoons red wine vinegar
2 tablespoons dry sherry or white wine
1 teaspoon salt
.5 teaspoon fresh ground black pepper

Step 1: cut the pork into .75 inch cubes. Combine remaining ingredients except 2 tablespoons oil into large non-reactive baking dish. Ad meat and toss ingredients to coat, then marinate, covered in the refrigerator for 4-6 hours, or overnight if needed (the longer the soak, the spicier)

Step 2: Preheat your grill (or oven) to high.

Step 3: when ready to cook, put the cubes onto skewers. Oil the grill (or oven grill mate), the arrange the kebabs on the hot grate. Cook the pork until it is browned on all sides (2-3 minutes) and cooked through, 8-12 minutes in all, brushing now and again with the 2 tablespoons oil. Serve hot

Mate, you don't know how good that sounds. Missed lunch and dinner...

362 Outrider  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:38:22pm

re: #355 ArmyWife

When he sees Palin/ArmyWife 2012 he will be sorry, now won't he?

Victory! ;-)>

363 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:38:55pm

re: #326 gregg

Wasn't a fair fight, almost 10 to 1 odds, I think John Fucking Murtha should propose legislation, Marines are allowed to fight back till it's 20 to 1 or better.
//

Semper Fi! Way to go USMC!

364 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:39:28pm

re: #360 Jewels (AKA Julian)
and for Turkey day....

Mole Poblano De Guajolote

Moles? you eat moles?

365 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:39:36pm

re: #363 jcm

They aren't the Army, but they did good. ;)

366 mean Gene  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:39:41pm

re: #360 Jewels (AKA Julian)

No!
That's for the day AFTER Turkey Day!
Sounds great!

367 The Other Les  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:39:50pm

re: #343 Max Darkside

Fully indoctrinated into the Borg, are you? You've been assimilated by Gummit?

Not quite there yet.

368 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:40:46pm

re: #320 Slumbering Behemoth

He's too busy dissing Palin. Must need ratings, or something.

Computerdude might be his biggest fan.

369 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:40:59pm

re: #326 gregg

Sorry if this has already been posted: Marine Makes Insurgents Pay the Price

A thing of beauty!

370 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:41:20pm

re: #365 ArmyWife

They aren't the Army, but they did good. ;)

I'm Air Force.... smart enough to stay out of that....
;-)

371 yochanan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:41:22pm

re: #364 Wishing

damn you wishing now i got to wipe the beer off the screen.

372 albusteve  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:41:46pm

re: #277 father_of_10

You know what numbers mean a lot to me? The ones BEFORE the decimal point and AFTER the $ sign.

no shit amigo...

373 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:42:27pm

re: #330 ArmyWife


I'll trade a venison anything for a really good sweet potato beyond the normal southern type with pecans and marshmallows...

Dice 2-3 sweet taters, steam them. Saute onions, butter, red chillies, nutmeg. Add steamed taters. Mash, eat, enjoy. See also Potato my sweet

/I eat this almost daily.
You can also stir fry them. Dice like Home Fries. add ginger, taters, red chilies and oil over medium heat and cover. Toss every 2-3 minutes for 15 minutes. Add green onions, toss. Dump over rice and pour over a sauce of lemon juice, soy sauce, and wasabi.

374 USBeast  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:42:35pm

re: #365 ArmyWife

They aren't the Army, but they did good. ;)

They're US. When we get the chance, US does good.

375 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:42:36pm

re: #337 Computerdude

Turkey.

376 leftover54  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:42:41pm

#360/361:

Delicious Turkey Recipe:
When I found this recipe, I thought it was perfect for people like me, who
just are not sure how to tell when poultry is thoroughly cooked, but not
dried out.

Give this a try.

8 - 15 lb. turkey
1 cup melted butter
1 cup stuffing (Pepperidge Farm is Good.)
1 cup uncooked popcorn (ORVILLE REDENBACHER'S LOW FAT)
Salt/pepper to taste

Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Brush turkey well with melted butter salt, and
pepper. Fill cavity with stuffing and uncooked popcorn.

Place in baking pan with the neck end toward the back of the oven.

Listen for the popping sounds. When the turkey's ass blows the oven door open and the bird flies across the room, it's done.

Enjoy !

377 freetoken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:42:52pm

re: #357 Crux Australis


The geological record would also discount Darwinian Macro-Evolution. Lack of transitional forms - "missing links"

Well, then, write it up in an essay and submit it! You just might win the prize! Your point is indeed one of the key issues listed by H.Y.

378 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:42:53pm

re: #339 legalpad

These are things others have written on, of course, but since we are, once again, talking about creationism - -

Science is man's attempt to find out things. The scientific method is devised to prevent just making up stuff and calling it science, particularly due to preconceived ideas. To say that if we don't have the answer for something that this proves that "God" did it, is something we can always say ad infinitum, until we "know everything". This is all "creationism" is. Another weakness of creationism is that, although not necessarily formally, it assumes a certain definition for God. There is no way to connect observations in biology to someone's specific idea of God.

There is the objection that evolution is "only a theory", and that there has been fraud in favor of evolution, and then the endless list of things we don't know the answer to. Answer: Most areas of science are just like this, on every count. So is most everything, including the interpretation of The Bible.

There is the discussion of whether The Bible meant 6 literal days. I think we can accept the idea that it didn't if people wish to advance it. I don't think Bishop Wilberforce figures into today's debate, nor do evolutionists need to grasp at straws to defend their views. I think we can accept the idea that "God created evolution", if God exists. We are not debating the existence or nature of God.

People that promote teaching "creationism" in science class have apparently forgotten what science is, namely, a method of finding out things. The type of conclusion that creationism forces violates that method in more than one way. First, although we can form hypotheses, we have to be genuinely ready to abandon them, and they should be theoretically disprovable. Second, it is not a conclusion to say "we don't know this, therefore, this is the conclusion. I think there are many more violations.

What evolution really conflicts with is a specific chronology in The Bible, which very few Christian groups have, not only the six days thing, but those who require that there be no real Homo Sapiens before a bit over 6000 years ago. Scientific chronology and The Great Flood is another such conflict: The Flood was supposed to have happened about 4500 years ago, yet, for example, there are trees, in the United States that are older than that, the Bristlecone Pine, that show no signs of being immersed in salt water for the better part of a year, nor is there any reason to believe it could survive such immersion.

Without belief in specific conflicting chronology, the Christian is free to believe in, God, Jesus, and the whole nine yards, in spite of anything discovered by science. One's belief could be essentially supernatural or a metaphor representing whatever it is about the Universe that accounts for the property of mind, which is in evidence.

To politically force "creationism" in science class is to distort, and therefore diminish, what science is, and can do. Using political force to enforce any religiously based views is destructive to the idea of being free of an overly intrusive government. We may not like what some people do with respect to our beliefs, but if we force them to conform, we are giving another source of power to a future totalitarian government, which is now the biggest potential problem of mankind.

Beautiful.

379 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:08pm

The foodies are out tonight.

380 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:18pm

Cajun ‘Popcorn’ shrimp

2 lbs raw crayfish tails, peeled, or small shrimp, shell and deveined
2 eggs
1 cup white wine (very dry)
.5 cup fine cornmeal (or all purpose flour, if not available)
.5 cup all purpose flour
1 tablespoon snipped fresh chives
1 garlic clove, crushed
.5 teaspoon fresh thyme leaves
.25 teaspoon salt
.25 teaspoon cayenne pepper
.25 teaspoon ground black pepper
oil, for deep frying

For the mayonnaise
1 egg yolk
2 teaspoons Dijon mustard
1 tablespoon white vinegar
1 cup olive or vegetable oil
.5 cup fresh basil leaves, chopped
salt and ground black pepper

Step 1: rinse the crayfish or shrimp in cold water. Drain well and set aside in a cool place

Step 2: mix together the eggs and wine in a small bowl

Step 3: in a mixing bowl, combine the cornmeal and/or flour, chives, garlic, thyme, salt cayenne, and pepper. Gradually whisk in the egg mixture, blending well. Cover the batter and let stand for one hour at room temperature.

Step 4: For the mayonnaise, combine the egg yolk, mustard, vinegar in a mixing bowl and add salt and pepper to taste. Add the oil ina thin stream, beating vigiously with a wire whisk. When the mixture is thick and smooth, stir in the basil. Cover and chill until ready to serve.

Step 5: heat 3 inches of oil in a large skillet or deep fryer to a temp of 350 F. dip the seafood into the batter and fry in small batches for 2-3 minutes until golden brown. Turn as necessary for even coloring. Remove with a slotted spoon and drain on paper towels. Serve hot with the mayo

381 yochanan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:26pm

re: #337 Computerdude

this message brought to you by the DNC/NYSLIME

382 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:46pm
383 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:51pm

re: #368 MandyManners

Huck has fans? Who knew?

384 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:51pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

The foodies are out tonight.

They still teach that in school?

385 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:54pm

re: #376 leftover54

#360/361:

Delicious Turkey Recipe:
When I found this recipe, I thought it was perfect for people like me, who
just are not sure how to tell when poultry is thoroughly cooked, but not
dried out.

Give this a try.

8 - 15 lb. turkey
1 cup melted butter
1 cup stuffing (Pepperidge Farm is Good.)
1 cup uncooked popcorn (ORVILLE REDENBACHER'S LOW FAT)
Salt/pepper to taste

Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Brush turkey well with melted butter salt, and
pepper. Fill cavity with stuffing and uncooked popcorn.

Place in baking pan with the neck end toward the back of the oven.

Listen for the popping sounds. When the turkey's ass blows the oven door open and the bird flies across the room, it's done.

Enjoy !

Haaaar!

386 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:43:58pm

re: #363 jcm

Wasn't a fair fight, almost 10 to 1 odds, I think John Fucking Murtha should propose legislation, Marines are allowed to fight back till it's 20 to 1 or better.
//

Semper Fi! Way to go USMC!

As I see it, the problem with Murtha having been a Marine is that the Corps always brings out its casualties. Why risk taking more casualties bringing that SOB's sorry ass out?

387 mean Gene  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:44:20pm

When it's "Turkey Day'' for two,
Duck L'orange

Make wild rice stuffing first:
1/4 cup wild rice
1 cup water
1/2 cup sake
4 oz shitake mushrooms
1 stalk celery, diced
1 oz diced onion

Saute the onion and celery in 1 tbs butter until clear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
clean and stuff duck
pierce duck with a sharp fork all over so fat can escape
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Basting sauce:
Blend
1 large can defrosted concentrated OJ
1 tbs Chinese 5 spice
~~~~~~~~~~~~
use meat thermometer and roast on rack at 325' baste every 15 minutes til done.

388 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:44:21pm

re: #371 yochanan

damn you wishing now i got to wipe the beer off the screen.

Dang, I hate to see anyone waste a beer!
/hope it was the cheap stuff

389 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:44:31pm

I just take my sweet potatoes down to the ocean and dip them in the salty water. I saw a younger, female ape do this first, so I have to be sneaky so the other males don't see me.

390 Steffan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:44:43pm

re: #268 Wishing

I just watched an interview with Sarah Palin...being interviewed while turkeys are being slaughtered in the background. LOL PETA is gonna have a field day with this!
OMG

That was several days ago, and a lot of conservative commenters -- not just blogs -- are snarking at the MSM as a bunch of whining sissies.

Apparently they think their meat is grown in a yeast vat, ready made in those plastic bags.

Shuster claims his network has “sanitised” the video, removing the “goriest parts”. Here’s uncensored vision. Take a look. Where are the gory parts? Can’t MSNBC nancies even cope with bloodless background vision of a farm animal being offed? Just as well Palin never turned up on Iron Chef: “A lot of resistance being put up by that one!” Note that tiny Japanese actress Naomi Hosokawa is not nearly so squeamish as Shuster.

Classical Values says candy-ass has gone mainstream.

Perhaps I'm a callused and insensitive bastard, but I'm well aware that unless they are eaten alive (which happens only in certain other countries it is racist to criticize), animals have to be killed before being eaten. While animal rights activists and radical vegans do not like this, people who eat meat obviously accept the inevitable killing which is a precursor to their meal.

If they don't, well, then there's something seriously wrong with the way they think. I like to assume that normal people think in a normal manner, and that people who eat meat have to know that it came from an animal which was slaughtered.

So yesterday when I read that Governor Sarah Palin held a press conference after her annual "turkey pardon" at a turkey farm while turkeys were being slaughtered in the background, I assumed that this Huffington Post reaction (calling the turkey killings "surreal" and "gruesome") that Ann Althouse blogged about was just an example of animal rights activist fare. Anyway, I agreed with her reaction:

Deal with it, you candy-asses. If you eat meat, something like that is going on in the background for you too.

391 Opilio  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:44:58pm

re: #359 yochanan

go suck an egg

computerdude's racked up -52 karma in just 2 days.

Troll.

Ignore it.

392 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:45:06pm

re: #384 jcm

Not that I'm aware of. During my dating years women considered it sexist and demeaning to cook a meal (likewise with cleaning). That's why I'm still single.

393 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:45:38pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

Sounds good! I eat them a lot, too. Very good for you. Just thinking TG type side dish.

394 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:45:40pm

ENOUGH OF THIS!

On to serious business.

Which base plate to use on my Kimber mags?

395 yochanan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #388 Wishing

CHIMAY ALE i never do the cheap stuff.

396 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:46:00pm

Beef with Cactus Pieces

Serves 6
2 pounds braising beef, cut into 2 inch cubes
2 tablespoons corn oil
1 onion, finely chopped
2 garlic cloves, chopped
1-2 jalapeno peppers, seeded and chopped
1 can (4 oz) nopalitos (cactus pieces) rinsed and chopped
2 cans (10 oz each) tomatillos (Mexican green tomatoes)
.5 cup chopped fresh cilantro
beef stock (optional)
salt and freshly ground black pepper
chopped fresh cilantro, to garnish

Step 1: Pat the beef cubes dry with paper towels. Heat the oil in a frying pan and sauté the beef cubes a few at a time, until browned all over. Using a slotted spoon, transfer the beef to a flameproof pan

Step 2: add the onion and garlic to the oil remaining in the frying pan and sauté until the onion is tender. Add oil as needed. Transfer to the pan, along with the jalapenos.

Step 3: add the nopalitos and tomatillos, with the can juices, to the pan. Still in the cilantro until well mixed. Add beef stock as needed, season with salt and pepper.

Step 4: bring to a slow simmer, cover and cook at a low heat for about 2.5 hrs, or until beef is very tender. Serve sprinkled with chopped cilantro.

397 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:46:43pm
398 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:46:48pm

I have a very, very unhealthy but oh so good turkey recipe on its way.

399 gmsc  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:47:11pm

re: #391 Opilio

computerdude's racked up -52 karma in just 2 days.

Meh - not impressive. Hateful Hater consistently managed a karma of more than -4 times his number of posts.

400 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:47:34pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader

oooh.....hmm...hard choice

401 lincolntf  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:48:03pm

If the winner gets the cash for proving Darwin occasionally dumb, or at least fallible, then I could send in the "bear-to-whale" segment from Origin of Species. Of course, since Darwin himself wrote it, his estate would probably get the money.

402 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:48:13pm

re: #400 Jewels (AKA Julian)

oooh.....hmm...hard choice

They come with three options. I am puzzled.

403 yochanan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:48:18pm

i wonder what NODROG karma would have rated? if we had that back then?

404 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:48:39pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader

Experiment mate! I think you will receive all the plates. Time fore some range time...

405 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:49:00pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader

ENOUGH OF THIS!

On to serious business.

Which base plate to use on my Kimber mags?

OUT OF STOCK

Barack Hussein Obama, third greatest firearms salesman of all time, right behind George Herbert Walker Bush and William Jefferson Clinton.

406 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:49:20pm

re: #346 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

If I may- there are lots of books and other resources for you to discover answers about your various questions. I think Charles even posted a video on the evolution of the eye. Really fascinating stuff.

407 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:49:25pm

re: #404 LoFlyer

Experiment mate! I think you will receive all the plates. Time fore some range time...

Oh, I already have them.

So... dumb question, maybe, but the purpose of the non-flush plates is just let help you "slam" the mag home more firmly, correct?

408 SummerSong  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:49:32pm

re: #340 Jewels (AKA Julian)


.67 cup rice wine or dry sherry - Eh? .67?

transfer tenderloins to cutting board and let coil for 5 minutes. Ha!

409 Wishing  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:49:40pm

re: #390 Steffan

Hey I have no problem! I love to eat meat and chicken and fish..and they all have to die FIRST. But Sarah could have picked a spot away from the killing cans. LOLOL

410 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:49:54pm

re: #386 pre-Boomer Marine brat

As I see it, the problem with Murtha having been a Marine is that the Corps always brings out its casualties. Why risk taking more casualties bringing that SOB's sorry ass out?

They was a story I read a long time ago, written by a Japanese Coast Artillery Officer about an incident off his area.

They shot down a American plane, the pilot bailed out and was in the water in the range of his guns. The Americans spent the entire day trying to rescue the flyer, planes provide air cover, a destroyer tried to get close enough to pick him up. IIRC correctly this went on for a day or two. Finally a sub slipped in at night and pick up the pilot.

The Japanese officer concluded from that that Japan was doomed. The Americans had the will to live, and expended vast amounts of resources to live. The Japanese had the will to die.

411 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:50:14pm

Manhattan Red Chowder

Serves 6-8

8 lbs small quahogs or large cherry clams
4 oz slab (unsliced) bacon, rind removed and cut into .5in dice
2 tablespoons olive oil
3 cloves garlic, chopped
2 stalks Celery, dice into .5in cubes
1 large onion (10 oz), cut into .5in dice
1 medium green bell pepper (6 oz), cut into .5in dice
2 medium carrots (4 oz), cut into .5in dice
2 dried bay leaves
.25 cup fresh Italian parsley
2 teaspoons dried oregano
.5 teaspoon crushed red pepper flakes
1.5 potatoes, peeled and cut into half inch dice. Yukon Gold, PEI, or Maine Potatoes for those in the states.
1 cup clam broth, or bottle clam juice, or fish stock, or chicken stock
1 can (28 oz) whole peeled tomatoes in juice, cut into half inch dice
freshly ground black pepper.
Kosher or Sea Salt.

Step 1: scrub the clams and rinse clean. Steam them open. Strain the broth (should be about 4 cups or thereabouts) and have left about 1 lb of clams. Cover the clams with plastic wrap and keep refrigerated. After they have cooled somewhat, dice into .5 inch cubes. Cover again and keep refrigerated until needed.

Step 2: heat a 4-6 quart heavy pot over low heat (I use cast iron) and add the bacon. Once it has rendered a few tablespoons of fat, increase the heat to medium and cook the bacon until crispy golden brown. Drain off all but one table spoon of fat, leaving the bacon in the pot.

Step 3: add the olive oil and the garlic and cook for 30 seconds,, then add the onion, celery, bell pepper, carrots, bay leaves, oregano, and crashed red pepper. Saute, stirring occasionally with a wooden spoon, for 10-12 minutes, until the vegetables are softened but not browned.

Step 4: place the potatoes, the reserved clam broth, and the additional 1 cup of broth. The broth should barely cover the potatoes. If it doesn’t, add water to barely cover turn up the heat, bring to a boil, cover and cook the potatoes for about 10 minutes until soft on the outside, but still firm in the center. If the broth isn’t thickened, smash a few potatoes against the side of the pot to release their starch.

Step 5: add the tomatoes and simmer for 5 minutes. Remove the pot from the heat, stir in the diced clams and parsley , and season to taste with the pepper.

Step 6: When serving the chowder, reheat over a low heat, do not boil.

412 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:50:23pm

re: #405 OldLineTexan

OUT OF STOCK

Barack Hussein Obama, third greatest firearms salesman of all time, right behind George Herbert Walker Bush and William Jefferson Clinton.

I'll be damned. Guess I ordered them just in time.

413 Panhandler  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:50:48pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader
Since they're out of stock, I'd go with the thicker one.

414 BlueCanuck  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:50:58pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

For some effin reason, I can't see or watch that video. It's on Likethehat's channel right? I can see almost all the other ones except that. Not available in my country for some reason.

415 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:51:48pm

re: #408 SummerSong

umm....2/3's = .67

as to Coil....Cool :)

416 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:51:54pm

re: #339 legalpad

These are things others have written on, of course, but since we are, once again, talking about creationism - -

Science is man's attempt to find out things. The scientific method is devised to prevent just making up stuff and calling it science, particularly due to preconceived ideas. To say that if we don't have the answer for something that this proves that "God" did it, is something we can always say ad infinitum, until we "know everything". This is all "creationism" is. Another weakness of creationism is that, although not necessarily formally, it assumes a certain definition for God. There is no way to connect observations in biology to someone's specific idea of God.

There is the objection that evolution is "only a theory", and that there has been fraud in favor of evolution, and then the endless list of things we don't know the answer to. Answer: Most areas of science are just like this, on every count. So is most everything, including the interpretation of The Bible.

There is the discussion of whether The Bible meant 6 literal days. I think we can accept the idea that it didn't if people wish to advance it. I don't think Bishop Wilberforce figures into today's debate, nor do evolutionists need to grasp at straws to defend their views. I think we can accept the idea that "God created evolution", if God exists. We are not debating the existence or nature of God.

People that promote teaching "creationism" in science class have apparently forgotten what science is, namely, a method of finding out things. The type of conclusion that creationism forces violates that method in more than one way. First, although we can form hypotheses, we have to be genuinely ready to abandon them, and they should be theoretically disprovable. Second, it is not a conclusion to say "we don't know this, therefore, this is the conclusion. I think there are many more violations.

What evolution really conflicts with is a specific chronology in The Bible, which very few Christian groups have, not only the six days thing, but those who require that there be no real Homo Sapiens before a bit over 6000 years ago. Scientific chronology and The Great Flood is another such conflict: The Flood was supposed to have happened about 4500 years ago, yet, for example, there are trees, in the United States that are older than that, the Bristlecone Pine, that show no signs of being immersed in salt water for the better part of a year, nor is there any reason to believe it could survive such immersion.

Without belief in specific conflicting chronology, the Christian is free to believe in, God, Jesus, and the whole nine yards, in spite of anything discovered by science. One's belief could be essentially supernatural or a metaphor representing whatever it is about the Universe that accounts for the property of mind, which is in evidence.

To politically force "creationism" in science class is to distort, and therefore diminish, what science is, and can do. Using political force to enforce any religiously based views is destructive to the idea of being free of an overly intrusive government. We may not like what some people do with respect to our beliefs, but if we force them to conform, we are giving another source of power to a future totalitarian government, which is now the biggest potential problem of mankind.

well said!

417 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:52:17pm

re: #392 Killgore Trout

Not that I'm aware of. During my dating years women considered it sexist and demeaning to cook a meal (likewise with cleaning). That's why I'm still single.

LOL! In my house the kitchen is mine. Not for trying but my wife doesn't have a knack for cooking.

418 Neo Con since 9-11  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:52:35pm

re: #337 Computerdude

I'm only posting because I never give a down ding without explaining the reason. The reason is you're an a$$h0le. You do realize Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show aren't news, right? Heck for that matter neither is MSNBC. Palin can write and speak just fine when she's not heavily edited by those who consider her their enemy. In short f' off you ignorant twit. Thank you back to lurking

419 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:53:46pm

re: #410 jcm

They was a story I read a long time ago, written by a Japanese Coast Artillery Officer about an incident off his area.

They shot down a American plane, the pilot bailed out and was in the water in the range of his guns. The Americans spent the entire day trying to rescue the flyer, planes provide air cover, a destroyer tried to get close enough to pick him up. IIRC correctly this went on for a day or two. Finally a sub slipped in at night and pick up the pilot.

The Japanese officer concluded from that that Japan was doomed. The Americans had the will to live, and expended vast amounts of resources to live. The Japanese had the will to die.

VERY interesting! Thanks!

420 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:54:00pm

re: #375 jcm

Turkey.

Is computerdude in line for one of those machines that is behind Sarah in her latest interview?/ Tis the season dontcha know...?

421 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:55:21pm

re: #420 Right mind left

Is computerdude in line for one of those machines that is behind Sarah in her latest interview?/ Tis the season dontcha know...?

Would I ever suggest such a thing?
*aww shucks innocent look*

422 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:55:37pm

re: #407 Occasional Reader

Oh, I already have them.

So... dumb question, maybe, but the purpose of the non-flush plates is just let help you "slam" the mag home more firmly, correct?


Sometime the gun industry goes for sexy stuff, but the plates and buffers appear in this design to be more utilitarian than sexy. Give them both a try, personally I would lean to the more compact buffer and end plates.

423 mean Gene  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:55:44pm

re: #417 jcm

LOL! In my house the kitchen is mine. Not for trying but my wife doesn't have a knack for cooking.

We're just the opposite.
I allow hubby to help.
He scrubs pots, pans, broilers and such.
He stirs constantly while a sauce thickens.
He pulls out the many ingredients as needed.
He sometimes smells the sauces or rubs and makes suggestions as to if it needs more or "X."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GREEK CHICKEN & NOODLES

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 WHOLE CHICKEN, CUT UP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MARINADE:
1/2 CUP OLIVE OIL
1/2 CUP DRY WHITE WINE
2 TBS DRY OREGANO
4 CLOVES GARLIC
JUICE OF 1 LEMON
SALT/PEPPER
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BROIL 10 MINUTES INSIDE UP
10 MINUTES SKIN SIDE UP
& TIL DONE INSIDE UP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BOIL ZITI NOODLES IN WATER
PLUS 1 TSP OLIVE OIL
& 1 CLOVE GARLIC CHOPPED FINE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MELT 1 TBS BUTTER
ADD
1/4 CUP DRY WHITE WINE
1 TBS OREGANO
1TBS LEMON JUICE
TAKE OFF HEAT
ADD DRAINED NOODLES
ADD
1/4 CUP MIZTHRA CHEESE
TOSS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

424 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:55:48pm

That was a freaking impressive run by Rogers for a touchdown.

425 BakaRanger  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:56:11pm

Presidental Pardons so far:::

_Leslie Owen Collier of Charleston, Mo. She was convicted for unauthorized use of a pesticide and violating the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.
_Milton Kirk Cordes of Rapid City, S.D. Cordes was convicted of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, which prohibits importation into the country of wildlife taken in violation of conservation laws.
_Richard Micheal Culpepper of Mahomet, Ill., who was convicted of making false statements to the federal government.
_Brenda Jean Dolenz-Helmer of Fort Worth, Texas, for reporting or helping cover up a crime.
_Andrew Foster Harley of Falls Church, Va. Harley was convicted of wrongful use and distribution of marijuana and cocaine.
_Obie Gene Helton of Rossville, Ga., whose offense was unauthorized acquisition of food stamps.
_Carey C. Hice Sr. of Travelers Rest, S.C., who was convicted of income tax evasion.
_Geneva Yvonne Hogg of Jacksonville, Fla., convicted of bank embezzlement.
_William Hoyle McCright Jr. of Midland, Texas, who was sentenced for making false entries, books, reports or statements to a bank.
_Paul Julian McCurdy of Sulphur, Okla., who was sentenced for misapplication of bank funds.
_Robert Earl Mohon Jr. of Grant, Ala., who was convicted of conspiracy to distribute marijuana.
_Ronald Alan Mohrhoff of Los Angeles, who was convicted for unlawful use of a telephone in a narcotics felony.
_Daniel Figh Pue III of Conroe, Texas, convicted of illegal treatment, storage and disposal of a hazardous waste without a permit.
_Orion Lynn Vick of White Hall, Ark., who was convicted of aiding and abetting the theft of government property.
Bush also commuted the prison sentences of John Edward Forte of North Brunswick, N.J., and James Russell Harris of Detroit, Mich. Both were convicted of cocaine offenses.
Some high-profile individuals, such as Michael Milken, are seeking a pardon on securities fraud charges. Two politicians convicted of public corruption - former Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, R-Calif., and four-term Democratic Louisiana Gov. Edwin W. Edwards - are asking Bush to shorten their prison terms.
Not on list so far are Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean.

426 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:56:14pm
427 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:02pm

re: #422 LoFlyer

Sometime the gun industry goes for sexy stuff, but the plates and buffers appear in this design to be more utilitarian than sexy. Give them both a try, personally I would lean to the more compact buffer and end plates.

Talk to me like I'm a three year old; which are you referring to?

428 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:08pm
"But we see highly colored, vivid, active, three-dimensional and perfectly sharp images, hear perfectly clear sounds and perceive a flawless outside world. But all these are merely perceptions."

Idiot.

At that point, might as well jump off a cliff with a herd of pigs.

429 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:13pm

re: #417 jcm

I hope she makes herself useful in other ways. I just couldn't find a chick that could/would perform useful tasks aside from color coordinating outfits and matching doilies and drapes. Some skills I have no use for.

430 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:22pm

re: #346 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I am what you call an evolutionist with questions. I believe that there is an overwhelming body of irrefutable scientific evidence showing evolution takes place. I also believe that there are some very big questions about evolution that have not yet been answered and pose major scientific challenges to evolution as the sole explanation for life as we know it:

How did eyes evolve?----[and what about] a satisfactory explanation of how quantum leaps of specuies with advanced abilities happened so fast. The speed of evolution has to have happened within the known paleontological dates, for some changes, the evolution would have to have been extremely rapid with almost every generation getting the exact right improvement; yet we see no evidence of cows, dogs or cats evolving at all, so what stops it? In additions there should be examples of failed designs that nevertheless survived.

I also have special questions for creationists:

OK the Creator condemned the world and flooded the earth, which fish died in the flood? If it was a fresh water flood, goodbye oceanic sea life, and if it was a salt water flood, it would definitely have wiped out the fresh water fish.

All of which shows you that no matter how smart people claim to be, no one has all the answers.

There are some clues to the evolution of eyes. Your hand can sense the heat of a fire, or a hot plate. Some parts of the skin are more sensitive than others. If you had to hunt at night, and if you had a particularly sensitive patch of skin on your face, near your eyes, you could sense the heat of an animal, from very near, on a cold night.

Now, this is how it is with some snakes. And behold, they have pits, which are particularly sensitive to heat, and they can heat-locate far better than we can. They have evolved a primitive infrared eye, to complement their "real" eyes that see in the daylight spectrum.

The eye of the octopus has evolved independently of the mammalian/reptile/amphibian/bird eye, and the optic nerve is arranged differently within the eye.

Evolution can proceed with astonishing rapidity when a species has a wide range of possibilities before it and no competition. Just such a situation occurred when a small breeding population of finches arrived at the Galapagos islands; Darwin figured that one out.

Another instance is the evolution of bats. This very month, Scientific American has an article on it. An intermediate fossil bat species has claws on all the fingertips, not just one as is the case nowadays. It also lacks the echolocating equipment common in most of today's bats.

The evolution was rapid because almost any variation could be adaptive to one lifestyle or another. Fruit eating, insect eating, blood sucking from cattle, everything worked. Bats Ruled The Night, and for the first bats, the whole world was their happy hunting ground.

Answers come. But yeah, we still don't have all the answers, and there are many questions that remain. These questions do not pose any scientific challenge to evolution as an explanation for how we got FROM bacteria to where we are now. Evolution doesn't claim to explain how we got TO bacteria, or DNA and RNA. Science may one day have its own answer to that riddle, but for now, this is something we don't claim to understand.

As to the evolution of dogs, that has happened very recently, within human history. It all started with a single litter of Asian wolves, on the DNA evidence. The immense number of breeds we now see is mostly new. If this isn't a clue to how speciation might come about, it sure looks like it. Dogs, moving into a niche that had no competition [human symbiote, omnivore, societal just like humans, cheap, good at guarding and hunting], have developed in a bewildering variety of ways, all somehow or other adaptive.

431 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:27pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader

ENOUGH OF THIS!

On to serious business.

Which base plate to use on my Kimber mags?

Is you pinky finger supported by the grip, will the extension give you a better grip? Play with both...

432 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:27pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

Was he being an asshole, or did he think it was funny? I'm never sure on newbies.

433 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:43pm

re: #421 jcm

Would I ever suggest such a thing?
*aww shucks innocent look*

I didn't either, I just thought I saw him in line!

(looks sideways with slight nod)

434 SummerSong  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:50pm

re: #415 Jewels (AKA Julian)

umm....2/3's = .67

as to Coil....Cool :)

Oh, I knew that. Just have never seen .67 in a recipe.

No coil? Darn, that would be very cool! ;)

435 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:57:54pm

Are Trolls proof of the Devoloution of Lizards?

436 CynicalConservative  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:58:33pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

'Fraid that ol' Computerduuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude is not going to match the annefrance record, though not for want of trying.

I think JMV's got Ann beat and it's still active...

437 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:58:40pm
438 gregg  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:59:01pm

re: #386 pre-Boomer Marine brat

As I see it, the problem with Murtha having been a Marine is that the Corps always brings out its casualties. Why risk taking more casualties bringing that SOB's sorry ass out?

I've heard it said that there are only a few ex-Marines and Murtha is one of them.

439 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:59:09pm
440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:59:21pm

Thanksgiving information...

350 degrees means Fahrenheit, not Celsius.

Be careful out there.

441 CynicalConservative  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:59:29pm

re: #439 buzzsawmonkey

Not in one post, though.

True

442 Palandine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 6:59:45pm

re: #390 Steffan

Entirely shameless blog-pimp

Olbermann and Kos and a variety of bed-wetting liberals are making a big deal of an interview with Alaska governor Sarah Palin where one can see a worker slaughtering Thanksgiving turkeys in the background.

Here’s the thing. Many Americans celebrate a thing called Thanksgiving, and in this celebration, the main course is usually a turkey. This turkey is DEAD when you eat it. Before it gets to the table, it is killed, beheaded, bled, gutted, and plucked. Its wing tips are cut off, as are its feet.

Turkeys are tasty, as are most animals, and the worker was doing his job with great attention. I find that more humane than a factory farming operation. It never hurts for those of us who eat meat to be confronted with our decision, but it’s pathetic to use that to score political points or to be hypocritical about it. OMG! Sarah Palin was nearby while turkeys were being “executed” (a term actually used in a Kos post). Sarah Palin also hunts. She knows the humility of being responsible for an animal’s life and its passing. She knows what the food on the plate MEANS.

This is where certain liberal arguments backfire. Sarah Palin is apparently a hick and a monster for being a sportswoman and for being in the vicinity when livestock were slaughtered for food for people. But who is the one who is hiding from reality? The person who knows how to feed her family and what it takes, or the besuited tv announcer or blogger who recoils in horror from the precursor to Thanksgiving dinner?

One should approach the taking of an animal’s life with humility, but they are here to play their part in life, and we are to be stewards of them, providing for them in life, and treating them humbly and humanely in death. Somehow, I suspect Governor Palin understands that deep lesson better than Keith Olbermann.

443 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:00:03pm

re: #437 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks. Didn't see them. I will put it on "ignore".

444 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:00:14pm

re: #429 Killgore Trout

I hope she makes herself useful in other ways. I just couldn't find a chick that could/would perform useful tasks aside from color coordinating outfits and matching doilies and drapes. Some skills I have no use for.

She won't let me touch the laundry, seems making pink underwear out of white was an unforgivable sin. With kids and all we've got a division of labor going.

445 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:01:09pm

re: #440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanksgiving information...

350 degrees means Fahrenheit, not Celsius.

Be careful out there.

That isn't going to be my weight after Thanksgiving? Phew...

446 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:01:37pm

re: #442 Palandine

Do they know that Obama eats Turkey and Steak too?

447 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:02:20pm

re: #438 gregg

I've heard it said that there are only a few ex-Marines and Murtha is one of them.

Good one.

448 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:02:40pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

It would take some real work to lower the bar annefrance set.

449 razorbacker  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:02:44pm

Great speeches have changed the course of nations. Lincoln at Gettysburg, Churchill at the Battle of Britian, Barack on the Obamanation.

While the naming of Clinton appears to have momentarily calmed jittery financial markets, it sparked ripples of disapproval at liberal websites like Huffington Post and DailyKos. The progressive blogosphere was an early key source of support for Mr. Obama's candidacy, but a steady stream of Clinton-era appointees since the election has left some charging that he had betrayed his campaign promises to bring them to Washington as part of a sweeping culture of change -- a charge that Mr. Obama vehemently accepted.

"Oh, for crissakes. Are you kidding me? Are you friggin' kidding me?" asked Obama. "Of course I betrayed those goddamned idiots. Have any of you actually spent five minutes with them? I have, unfortunately. Nothing personal, but I wouldn't trust these internet windowlickers with a plastic spork from Taco Bell, let alone a freaking $3 trillion dollar budget global superpower. Look, I may be naive, but I'm not stupid. And if Kose or Koz or whatever the fuck his name is thinks for one second I give a rat's ass about who he wants in charge of the Treasury Department, he's even stupider than he looks."

"Look, I'm sorry I kinda snapped there, and pardon my French," added Obama. "But I just spent the last two years surrounded by these starstruck moonbat retards, and I'll be goddamned if I'm gonna spend the next four with them parked in the next cubicle over."

Obama Names Bill Clinton to Presidential Post

450 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:03:11pm

re: #444 jcm

She won't let me touch the laundry, seems making pink underwear out of white was an unforgivable sin. With kids and all we've got a division of labor going.


Hey JCM, thank you for the help yesterday, computer seems to be ok for now, Can you suggest a SMART reader? I have the Inteli-SMART trial version going, it says there is a problem but doesn't say what or where.

451 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:03:22pm

Anybody done a Turducken?

452 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:03:31pm

re: #446 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's a slanderous smear! He only eats waffles!
/Fight the Smears!
//

453 wee fury  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:03:35pm

I think some trolls (depending on their basic survival instincts) may evolve into Lizardom.

454 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:03:53pm

re: #448 Sharmuta

It would take some real work to lower the bar annefrance set.

That's like the Dead Sea, can't go lower.

455 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:04:04pm

re: #440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanksgiving information...

350 degrees means Fahrenheit, not Celsius.

Be careful out there.

Let me guess.
You just tried baking your sweet potatoes at 350 C ?

/saw a fire on the horizon ... didn't know what it was ... heh

456 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:04:14pm

re: #451 jcm

That is just so wrong. Hahahahahahaha!

Can't stop laughing thinking about it. Heard about it, never seen a picture.

457 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:05:09pm

re: #431 jcm

Is you pinky finger supported by the grip, will the extension give you a better grip? Play with both...

Good advice, thanks.

Both the thick and the intermediate pad support my pinky; all being equal, I'm inclined to go with the slimmer one.

458 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:05:10pm

re: #439 buzzsawmonkey

Not in one post, though.

Does annefrance hold the record?

459 3 wood  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:05:15pm

Good evening.

Look for a flat to slightly up market in the morning. The futures are about even so far tonight and the Nikkei and Hang Seng are up 4 to 5%.

The TED spread climbed 1 point to 216.

Message to Alan Colmes, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Within 2 years you will be a trivia question, as in "what ever happened to....?"

See you in the morning

460 lincolntf  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:05:19pm

re: #453 wee fury

Would that be a new off-shoot of Darwinism, perhaps? Survival of the Conformist-est?

461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:05:49pm

re: #459 3 wood

Evening Wood!

462 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:05:54pm
463 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:06:57pm

re: #431 jcm

Is you pinky finger supported by the grip, will the extension give you a better grip? Play with both...

BTW, I assume you mean pink of the weak hand, right?

464 lincolntf  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:07:07pm

re: #459 3 wood

Can you believe he actually left that show? He'll never make it on his own. He's got no personality, parrots the Party-line without fail, and has a face like a turkey's ass.

465 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:07:11pm

re: #339 legalpad

And although you don't mention it, to FORCE belief onto people, whether as science or as 'OUR WAY OF TRUTH'... diminishes and demeans what goodness and value there may be IN that belief!

There is NO FORCING of belief in true faith, in the Faith of God.

"He hath but to deliver this clear Message. Whoso desireth let him turn aside, and whoso desireth let him choose the path to his Lord."

466 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:07:24pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Evening Wood!

More often, I experience Morning Wood.

What?

467 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:07:46pm

re: #337 Computerdude

If Sarah Palin could write, she could have entered this contest. She'd likely have much in common with the other entrants - you know, I can hear her voice right now:

"God just snapped his fingers oh gosh darn *wink* and the Earth dontcha see gosh just popped inta bein' *wink*. Drop out of school kids, what as gosh darn science ever done for ya, doncha know." - Sarah Palin, 2012 Presidential campaign interview with Katie Couric.

Why don't you go ahead and call Gov. Palin "retarded" as you did this morning?

468 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:08:17pm

re: #467 MandyManners

Why don't you go ahead and call Gov. Palin "retarded" as you did this morning?

Just don't anyone call John McCain a loser.

469 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:06pm

What happened to Colmes? Did his psycho blogging about Trig Palin catch up to him? That would be fair, better than a political disagreement.

470 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:17pm

re: #451 jcm

Anybody done a Turducken?

Hey, this is a family site, let's keep it clean.
/

I've had one, but I've never made one. In fact, the one I had was a Turducenage, as it had sausage stuffed in their as well.
//Hey, I said keep it clean.

471 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:18pm

Regarding Palin and hunting and stuff...

I hate animal rights people. The are the most sanctimonious creatures on the planet. Only a freaking lib can go hunting (trying look manly [kerry]) and not get his tit in a ringer by the left.

Every time the President pardons a Turkey, it pisses me off. Why? Pardons it, then goes inside and eats the one who wasn't named Barabas.

Rant mode off.

472 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:20pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

'Fraid that ol' Computerduuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude is not going to match the annefrance record, though not for want of trying.

Maybe he needs better PR.

473 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:34pm

re: #462 buzzsawmonkey

I wouldn't know, but it was certainly the most downdings for one post I've ever seen.

(self-righteously) ... I took the high road and didn't use pre-Boomer's SockPuppy.

474 Russkilitlover  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:36pm

re: #451 jcm

Anybody done a Turducken?

You can buy them prepared for you to roast and a lot of upscale grocery stores, here in So. Cal.

I file "Turducken" under, Just Because You Can, Doesn't Mean You Should.

475 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:47pm

re: #427 Occasional Reader

Talk to me like I'm a three year old; which are you referring to?

We are not three year olds, but I appreciate your humility mate! re: #427 Occasional Reader

Talk to me like I'm a three year old; which are you referring to?

Haar, mate! The base plates and "buffer" are placed at the bottom of the magazine and in your case consist of inner base plate installed to the base of the magazine, then a rubber buffer installed to another base plate mounted on the bottom of the mag. It does not require much strength or skill to slam a magazine into a pistol. Usually only a single "base plate" is mounted on a magazine.

476 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:09:58pm

re: #463 Occasional Reader

BTW, I assume you mean pink of the weak hand, right?

I was thinking shooting hand, my S&W Compact the grip is so short the standard mag didn't have room for the pinky, for some reason that bothered me. There extend butt plate grips, and that helped. Pinky of the off hand didn't bother me as much as it's wrapped around the shooting hand.

477 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:10:47pm

And please just what the heck is this about some actress stabbing someone? Is this real or a joke? Is there a link?

478 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:11:00pm

re: #468 Sharmuta

Just don't anyone call John McCain a loser.

I'm not gonna' get into that angle. Well, except to state that both McCain and Palin are--by definition--losers. SO ARE WE.

479 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:11:23pm

re: #477 lifeofthemind

It's a joke that's been beaten to death.

480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:11:24pm

re: #477 lifeofthemind

And please just what the heck is this about some actress stabbing someone? Is this real or a joke? Is there a link?

Let's play a trick on lifeofthemind. NOBODY ANSWER!

481 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:11:41pm

re: #451 jcm

Anybody done a Turducken?

Yes. Delicious. Got a locally-made one three years ago for Christmas...never even frozen. Connections are good (while they last).

482 Perplexed  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:12:04pm

re: #312 gregg

Not to be picky, but I think the correct saying is "Minnesota, the state where nothing is allowed".

Right you are. Going to have to listen on the internet when not at home.

483 qcifer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:12:21pm

what's wrong with the idea that our one God created everything including the process, which we're still a long way from understanding, that we call evolution. Why wouldn't anyone who believes this be excited to see science making incremental steps toward glimpsing our infinite creator. Why wouldn't scientists get excited about stepping into discoveries that they can't explain. Whether you call yourself a believer or a scientist, why don't we keep pushing forward & see what we find. We have nothing to lose by going together

484 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:12:56pm

re: #478 MandyManners

I'm not gonna' get into that angle. Well, except to state that both McCain and Palin are--by definition--losers. SO ARE WE.

I'm a loser, Baby

485 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:13:15pm

re: #480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's play a trick on lifeofthemind. NOBODY ANSWER!

Let's not, time for someone to get a life.
Didn't enjoy High School atitude the first time.

486 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:13:17pm

re: #337 Computerdude

Palin has actual faith. Does this bother you?

487 notutopia  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:14:16pm

re: #358 Maximu§

Don't forget the rest of the trinity...shame, and lots of it.
; )

488 LoFlyer  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:14:35pm

BBL tomorrow mates! Fracken' laundry....

489 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:14:50pm

re: #477 lifeofthemind

And please just what the heck is this about some actress stabbing someone? Is this real or a joke? Is there a link?

Reese, With her Spoon, was purported to have stabbed her boyfriend. OJ at one point was involved.

490 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:14:50pm

re: #484 Sharmuta

I'm a loser, Baby

Nah, you're cool, he's a loser.

491 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:14:57pm

re: #486 Ojoe

Palin has actual faith. Does this bother you?

Confident women scare him.

492 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:15:09pm

re: #475 LoFlyer

Haar, mate! The base plates and "buffer" are placed at the bottom of the magazine and in your case consist of inner base plate installed to the base of the magazine, then a rubber buffer installed to another base plate mounted on the bottom of the mag. It does not require much strength or skill to slam a magazine into a pistol. Usually only a single "base plate" is mounted on a magazine.

Okay... the mags come out of the box with a flush, stainless base plate; another loose stainless base plate; a medium sized rubber or plastic pad; and a thicker plastic pad.

So; am I supposed to add something to that first base plate, regardless, even if I want a flush fit?

And if I don't care about a flush fit, I can just screw the medium or thick rubber pad to the already-attached stainless base plate, right?

493 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:15:28pm

Just to be Cpn'Obvious:
This has less to do with reasoning out creationism and more with rejecting western thought and the scientific method which are diametrically opposed to the enslavement of humanity through islam or any other religion...

494 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:15:59pm

re: #480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's play a trick on lifeofthemind. NOBODY ANSWER!

Sorry, I didn't see your post until after, obviously I know nothing...

495 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:16:09pm

re: #490 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah, you're cool, he's a loser.

You mean- I'm Where It's At?

496 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:16:18pm

re: #491 OldLineTexan

His great loss.

497 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:16:18pm

re: #485 lifeofthemind

Let's not, time for someone to get a life.
Didn't enjoy High School atitude the first time.

1. Ouch.
2. Thought you were in on the whole stab thing earlier.
3. :( Sorry.

498 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:16:23pm

re: #476 jcm

I was thinking shooting hand, my S&W Compact the grip is so short the standard mag didn't have room for the pinky, for some reason that bothered me. There extend butt plate grips, and that helped. Pinky of the off hand didn't bother me as much as it's wrapped around the shooting hand.

Ah, my M1911 is full frame, so this isn't an issue. Even with the flush plate, my shooting hand can grip the thing no problem.

499 gregg  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:16:27pm

re: #482 Perplexed

Right you are. Going to have to listen on the internet when not at home.

I listen on the internet. With a CI of only 4, I think most garage logicians would suspect I'm from Liberal Lakes.

500 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:17:14pm

re: #496 Ojoe

His great loss.

Yes, but think of the increased happiness of confident women. A noble sacrifice, say I.

501 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:17:43pm

re: #491 OldLineTexan

Confident women scare him.

CAPABLE, intelligent women scare him, OldLine! :D

502 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:18:17pm

re: #485 lifeofthemind

Did not revenge ding either. Seriously. Didn't mean to piss you off.

503 Palandine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:18:24pm

On History Channel, they're showing Valkyrie: The Plot to Kill Hitler.

I will never, never understand how so many throughout Europe (an indeed, in the States) either agreed or remained silent as that great evil of Nazism grew throughout the 1930s.

504 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:18:46pm

re: #489 Right mind left

Reese, With her Spoon, was purported to have stabbed her boyfriend. OJ at one point was involved.


Thank you, nothing on her wiki about it, sounds like non-news to me.

505 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:19:19pm

BBL

506 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:19:26pm

re: #504 lifeofthemind

Thank you, nothing on her wiki about it, sounds like non-news to me.

It is a joke. Been going on here for 24 hours.

507 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:19:37pm

re: #497 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

1. Ouch.
2. Thought you were in on the whole stab thing earlier.
3. :( Sorry.

OK np

508 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:19:52pm

Just in case folks have some difficulty in locating the above-referenced link, here computerdude is in all his glory.

620 Computerdude
Hindsight is 20/20, isnt it?

I think that McCain did well considering who he was running against and the economic climate. Also, the man did not know what Sarah Palin was retarded. [emphasis added] He had thought (as anyone would have) that a sitting Governor (even if its Alaska) must have a brain. After the Couric interviews his candidacy was over. I dont blame Sarah, I blame McCain for not vetting her enough, but still people, McCain did the best he could and deserves respect and credit. In this climate the Democrats had the advantage.

********
I've not bolded the slurs against the last frontier and its residents.

509 OldLineTexan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:20:37pm

re: #506 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It is a joke. Been going on here for 24 hours.

I hear the same joke caused the Hatfield-McCoy feud.

510 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:20:40pm

re: #465 Carridine

And although you don't mention it, to FORCE belief onto people, whether as science or as 'OUR WAY OF TRUTH'... diminishes and demeans what goodness and value there may be IN that belief!

There is NO FORCING of belief in true faith, in the Faith of God.

"He hath but to deliver this clear Message. Whoso desireth let him turn aside, and whoso desireth let him choose the path to his Lord."

I am not talking about forcing people to believe. I am talking about making them do things that conform to our belief.

To politically force "creationism" in science class is to distort, and therefore diminish, what science is, and can do. Using political force to enforce any religiously based views is destructive to the idea of being free of an overly intrusive government. We may not like what some people do with respect to our beliefs, but if we force them to conform, we are giving another source of power to a future totalitarian government, which is now the biggest potential problem of mankind.

511 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:20:52pm

re: #495 Sharmuta

You mean- I'm Where It's At?

Yeah baby! You're in with the "in" crowd.

512 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:20:53pm

re: #504 lifeofthemind

Thank you, nothing on her wiki about it, sounds like non-news to me.

Yes, it was something that got fairly out of hand yesterday and has carried over, mostly because it was so out of hand. The spoon was too.

513 Stonemason  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:21:04pm

re: #504 lifeofthemind

Dude...it was a joke...the premise is to claim some actress stabbed someone, can't remember exactly who, just the name Reese

Your reply would be:

Witherspoon?

At which time everyone laughs and says no, with her knife!


Not a good joke but had an entire thread giggling last night

514 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:23:00pm

ArmyWife Turkey (effort worth it)

1 Turkey (whatever weight works for you, this is based on 14-15 pounds)
4 cups chicken broth
5-8 pieces thick cut bacon slices (from the deli if you can)
3/4 + 1 cup + 2 tbs softened butter (the real stuff)
2 teaspoons salt (guesstimate)
1 teaspoon pepper (guesstimate)
2 cups dry white wine
2 bay leaves
6-8 pepper corns whole
4-5 fresh thyme sprigs
4 parsley sprigs
1 cup butter
2 tbs all purpose flour
Cheesecloth (large enough to wrap around turkey).

Preheat oven to 500 degrees.

Soak cheesecloth in about 1 cup of broth 10-15 minutes, wring out then lay across roasting rack in a roasting pan. Line cheesecloth with bacon.

Mix 1/2 cup butter with salt and pepper. Rub about a third of this mixture between the turkey and the skin, being careful not to totally detach skin. Replace skin and rub the rest of the mixture over outside of the turkey. Tie legs together with kitchen string, tuck the wings in and put the bird breast side down on the bacon lined cheesecloth. Lift sides of cheesecloth over the turkey and secure tightly with string. Cut off any excess.

Stir wine, bay leaves, pepper corns, parsley and thyme together. Pour this into roasting pan. Bake turkey at 500 for 30 minutes.

Heat 1 cup butter, 1/2 cup broth until butter melts. Pour over turkey, reduce to 300 and bake about 2.5 hours basting with pan drippings every 30 minutes or so.

Remove Turkey, increase heat to 400. Carefully transfer bird to cutting board and remove cheesecloth and bacon. Return bird to pan, breast side up. Bake at 400 for 30 minutes or until skin is golden.

Use the pan drippings, remaining broth, flour and butter to make a gravy while the turkey rests. Make a paste with the broth and flour, then whisk in the butter and pan drippings mixture in a sauce pan until thickened.

This is how my family has done turkey forever (another one would be in the smoker). I noticed Southern Living had a variation on this recipe this month, so I guess its not as original as I thought! No matter, it will result in a VERY moist turkey.

515 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:23:12pm

re: #425 BakaRanger

Bush has pardoned less than half the number of people that either Clinton or Reagan did during their terms in office. I don't think that will change much between now and the end of his term.

I don't think he's going to pardon Pollard or Milken, but I suspect that he will do so for Scooter Libby (much to the chagrin of the frothing left). Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean should be a case worthy of consideration.

516 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:23:24pm

re: #508 MandyManners

Thanks. Good rule here, when slandering people try to proof read carefully. Saying "what" when you mean "that" does not give credibility to an argument about intelligence.

517 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:23:47pm

re: #508 MandyManners

Just in case folks have some difficulty in locating the above-referenced link, here computerdude is in all his glory.

620 Computerdude
Hindsight is 20/20, isnt it?

I think that McCain did well considering who he was running against and the economic climate. Also, the man did not know what Sarah Palin was retarded. [emphasis added] He had thought (as anyone would have) that a sitting Governor (even if its Alaska) must have a brain. After the Couric interviews his candidacy was over. I dont blame Sarah, I blame McCain for not vetting her enough, but still people, McCain did the best he could and deserves respect and credit. In this climate the Democrats had the advantage.

********
I've not bolded the slurs against the last frontier and its residents.

Using the word 'retarded' to make a point is inappropriate!

518 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:23:47pm

re: #508 MandyManners

Thanks.
I just went to the thread and lifted my hind leg on that comment.

519 tommygum  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:24:22pm

re: #410 jcm

They was a story I read a long time ago, written by a Japanese Coast Artillery Officer about an incident off his area.

They shot down a American plane, the pilot bailed out and was in the water in the range of his guns. The Americans spent the entire day trying to rescue the flyer, planes provide air cover, a destroyer tried to get close enough to pick him up. IIRC correctly this went on for a day or two. Finally a sub slipped in at night and pick up the pilot.

The Japanese officer concluded from that that Japan was doomed. The Americans had the will to live, and expended vast amounts of resources to live. The Japanese had the will to die.


That reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge cake story.

520 lincolntf  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:24:29pm

re: #513 Stonemason

I wonder if I could pull that joke off at the Thanksgiving table? I'm gonna give it a try. Properly delivered, it'll probably be a big hit.

521 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:24:44pm

re: #512 Right mind left

Yes, it was something that got fairly out of hand yesterday and has carried over, mostly because it was so out of hand. The spoon was too.

I thought she used a spork . . . . .

522 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:25:09pm

re: #484 Sharmuta

I'm a loser, Baby

I love that song but, I'll never associate it with Sen. McCain, Gov. Palin or anyone who voted for them. Nor will I associate if with the moonbats in this particular situation.

I probably missed your POV with this post but, I blame myself. It's been a grueling fucking day and my humor/sarcasm/yaddayaddayadda button has been smashed to smithereens.

523 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:25:33pm

re: #514 ArmyWife

oooh looks good. did you like any of those that I posted?

524 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:25:35pm

re: #511 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah baby! You're in with the "in" crowd.

Hell Yes!

525 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:25:51pm

We will now have a thread on the use of literalism to kill humor, to be followed by 3 hours on the parasites of the Eastern deciduous forest.

526 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:25:52pm

re: #521 outsidephilly

I thought she used a spork . . . . .

Spork? That Icelandic singer? I thought we were talking about an actress!

527 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:07pm

re: #517 outsidephilly

Using the word 'retarded' to make a point is inappropriate!

Ummmmmm...to say the least, especially considering Trigg.

528 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:19pm

re: #517 outsidephilly

Using the word 'retarded' to make a point is inappropriate!

Word is okay if you're a lib referring to a conservative. Same meme has been flowing left to right since the invention or "political correctness".

What an asshole.

529 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:26pm

re: #515 lawhawk

Bush has pardoned less than half the number of people that either Clinton or Reagan did during their terms in office. I don't think that will change much between now and the end of his term.

I don't think he's going to pardon Pollard or Milken, but I suspect that he will do so for Scooter Libby (much to the chagrin of the frothing left). Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean should be a case worthy of consideration.

I would like to have seen the same laundry list for Clinton and other presidents for a fair assessment...that post, while interesting to see the details, obviously missed much of the points of news today with respect to Holder...IMO

530 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:26pm

re: #518 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks.
I just went to the thread and lifted my hind leg on that comment.

Whizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

531 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:34pm

re: #522 MandyManners

It's been a grueling fucking day

{Mandy}

532 phoenixgirl  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:46pm

re: #520 lincolntf

I wonder if I could pull that joke off at the Thanksgiving table? I'm gonna give it a try. Properly delivered, it'll probably be a big hit.

ugh

533 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:46pm

re: #514 ArmyWife

yummy . . . , thanks for taking the time to post that recipe - I'm gonna use it!

534 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:26:59pm

re: #510 legalpad

Exactly! It is the Turkish Yahya that is seeking to force HIS beliefs onto people... and that tendency is widespread in Islam!

Not you, THEM, Legal...

Science does NOT conflict with belief, people ARE free to believe that man cannot fly, and the Earth is flat and we're all undigested bits of God's dinner last night... no matter WHAT science says...

535 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:27:24pm

re: #519 tommygum

That reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge cake story.

It might be, the story is in my head but I couldn't tell you where I got it.

536 tommygum  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:27:36pm

re: #394 Occasional Reader

ENOUGH OF THIS!

On to serious business.

Which base plate to use on my Kimber mags?

Ever try a 20 round magazine in your 1911?

537 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:27:38pm

Speaking of time...
The planet is presently about 4.5 to 4.8 billion years old (depending on your source), was born of tremendous heat and unimaginable cosmic violence in which no life could survive.

It is destined to become a cinder when our own solar system star goes red giant on us.

All we have is this one brief existence, a blink of an eye of time in the middle of those two very long lasting and thoroughly life-sterilizing events.

This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice in it.

538 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:27:42pm

re: #518 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks.
I just went to the thread and lifted my hind leg on that comment.

I added my sentiments.

539 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:27:58pm

re: #515 lawhawk

Bush has pardoned less than half the number of people that either Clinton or Reagan did during their terms in office. I don't think that will change much between now and the end of his term.

I don't think he's going to pardon Pollard or Milken, but I suspect that he will do so for Scooter Libby (much to the chagrin of the frothing left). Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean should be a case worthy of consideration.


The problem with the Border Patrol agents wasn't that they shot the dirtbag it was that they tampered with the evidence.

540 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:28:36pm

re: #523 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Yes! I have taken a lot of notes. The Beef with cactus is going to be tried, only with venison. We rarely eat beef - mainly because I have a freezer full of venison most of the time! My kids actually don't like the taste of beef because they have always gotten venison.

541 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:28:37pm

re: #534 Carridine

Oh - OK.

542 Buster Bunny  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:28:43pm

Ok .. creationism is real .. evolution is false .. Turkish is a great language and Islam is THE RELIGION OF PEACE.

Where do I get to sign up for this shmaltz? I invested too much in Citibank not for myself NOT to be a contender ....

/what happens if a jew wins the competition?

543 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:28:51pm

re: #531 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Ah, thanks!

544 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:28:55pm

re: #536 tommygum

Ever try a 20 round magazine in your 1911?

Nope. Not legal here in DC anyway. And overextended mags can lead to jamming problems, so I'm told.

545 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:20pm

re: #533 outsidephilly

Its really good. The calories cook out. That is what I tell myself. ;)

546 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:22pm

re: #537 rawmuse

Speaking of time...
It is destined to become a cinder when our own solar system star goes red giant on us.

OMYGODWEREALLGOINGTODIE!

This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice in it.

Amen

547 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:22pm

re: #522 MandyManners

It was just an excuse to play some Beck.

548 lincolntf  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:23pm

re: #532 phoenixgirl

I wasn't making a joke, but now that I see what you saw, yes it sucks.

549 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:35pm

re: #538 jcm

I added my sentiments.

Soon, computerdude will be sediment beneath the sentiments.

550 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:38pm

re: #537 rawmuse

Speaking of time...
The planet is presently about 4.5 to 4.8 billion years old (depending on your source), was born of tremendous heat and unimaginable cosmic violence in which no life could survive.

It is destined to become a cinder when our own solar system star goes red giant on us.

All we have is this one brief existence, a blink of an eye of time in the middle of those two very long lasting and thoroughly life-sterilizing events.

This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice in it.

YES!

551 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:29:56pm

re: #537 rawmuse

Amen.

552 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:30:08pm

re: #352 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Serves 8 for appetizers, 4 as entrée

2 lbs boneless pork loin or tenderlion
1 medium onion, finely diced
3 garlic cloves, minced
3 tablespoons, minced fresh flat-leaf (Italian) parsley
1 tablespoon Spanish Paprika
.5 teaspoon hot pepper flakes
.5 teaspoon ground cumin
.5 teaspoon ground coriander
.5 teaspoon dried oregano
.25 teaspoon saffron threads, ground
4 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
2 tablespoons red wine vinegar
2 tablespoons dry sherry or white wine
1 teaspoon salt
.5 teaspoon fresh ground black pepper

Step 1: cut the pork into .75 inch cubes. Combine remaining ingredients except 2 tablespoons oil into large non-reactive baking dish. Ad meat and toss ingredients to coat, then marinate, covered in the refrigerator for 4-6 hours, or overnight if needed (the longer the soak, the spicier)

Step 2: Preheat your grill (or oven) to high.

Step 3: when ready to cook, put the cubes onto skewers. Oil the grill (or oven grill mate), the arrange the kebabs on the hot grate. Cook the pork until it is browned on all sides (2-3 minutes) and cooked through, 8-12 minutes in all, brushing now and again with the 2 tablespoons oil. Serve hot

?saffron threads? I'm not familiar with saffron threads, could you explain, please?

553 Buster Bunny  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:30:25pm

re: #534 Carridine

Exactly! It is the Turkish Yahya that is seeking to force HIS beliefs onto people... and that tendency is widespread in Islam!

Not you, THEM, Legal...

Science does NOT conflict with belief, people ARE free to believe that man cannot fly, and the Earth is flat and we're all undigested bits of God's dinner last night... no matter WHAT science says...

speak for yourself. I just met someone the other night that might as well have been Gods excrement. Not a nice remark .. but that was what he was like.

554 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:30:35pm

Dog is settling into his little bed. Funny to watch a dog scratch his way into arranging a mattress. Cutest little guy.

I'm going to go scratch myself into bed to.

Lifeofthemind...can you un-ding me. I'm very sad.

555 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:31:07pm

re: #529 Right mind left

Well, if you want to see the full list of pardons from the Clinton Administration, here you go, courtesy of the US Office of Pardon Attorney:

For President Clinton, he pardoned these people, and commuted the sentences of these people.

556 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:31:11pm

re: #531 pre-Boomer Marine brat

{Mandy}

I'm sorry, Mandy, would that I could stop by with a chocolate cake (homemade) . . . .

557 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:31:25pm

re: #526 Occasional Reader

Spork? That Icelandic singer? I thought we were talking about an actress!

Sporky Pig....bbbbbuuuubbuuuubbuuut I didn't do it! AAAAnnnAaaaNNNd All these recipes are making me nervous!

(that's all folks) Let's bury the utensils!

558 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:31:44pm

re: #556 outsidephilly

I like cake.

559 infidel Alan  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:31:56pm

re: #304 whiterasta

My friend, when you say Caribbean and lamb in the same breath, you are actually talking about goat!

Nothing wrong with goat, I was raised on it !

If you are anywhere in the Caribbean and order mutton, you are actually getting goat.

I had goat and puppy at a Filipino neighbor's housewarming: delicious. They didn't serve the balut fertilized duck eggs, thank goodness.

560 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:31:57pm

re: #554 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dog is settling into his little bed. Funny to watch a dog scratch his way into arranging a mattress. Cutest little guy.

I'm going to go scratch myself into bed to.

Lifeofthemind...can you un-ding me. I'm very sad.

It is fun to watch a pet's bedtime ritual . . . .

561 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:32:08pm

It has been a bad day, and the beast is unwell.

562 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:32:24pm

re: #550 MandyManners

And speaking of praise, breakfast brunch calls...

Praise be!

563 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:33:04pm

re: #524 Sharmuta

Hell Yes!

Hey now, that's way too much enthusiasm, better put a lid on it.

564 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:33:07pm

re: #552 outsidephilly

?saffron threads? I'm not familiar with saffron threads, could you explain, please?

Saffron....

Saffron's aroma is often described by connoisseurs as reminiscent of metallic honey with grassy or hay-like notes, while its taste has also been noted as hay-like and somewhat bitter. Saffron also contributes a luminous yellow-orange colouring to foods. Saffron is widely used in Iranian (Persian), Arab, Central Asian, European, Indian,Turkish, Moroccan and Cornish cuisines. Confectionaries and liquors also often include saffron.
565 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:33:14pm

re: #547 Sharmuta

It was just an excuse to play some Beck.

Here's an excuse to ratchet down some emotions.

566 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:33:24pm

re: #554 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The chis do this. They are so funny, making their bed comfy and then just plopping down with a sigh. The German Shepherd doesn't. She just lays on her bed and snores. The chihuahuas LOVE to jump in her bed when she isn't in it - it must seem like a king size bed to a toddler!

567 Buster Bunny  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:33:26pm

I intend to be long gone when the Sun goes red giant and supernovas because some ass left his toolbag orbiting the earth for 400,000 years and it flies off and detonates the sun.

But then .. who knows? the way technology is going .. i might be able to clone myself, argue with myself ... kill myself and take over the world in my place !

Aint science wonderful !

568 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:33:59pm

re: #544 Occasional Reader

Nope. Not legal here in DC anyway. And overextended mags can lead to jamming problems, so I'm told.

I have a thirty-rounder for my Glock 26 - no real problem. Jamming can be caused by a lot of things, including bad magazines, but it is not just their capacity. But magazine capacity is something non-gun people think will affect shooters in "gun-free" zones. But of course they are idiots. It's the fact that no one else has a gun that is the problem.

569 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:34:02pm

re: #545 ArmyWife

Its really good. The calories cook out. That is what I tell myself. ;)

I'm not even gonna pay attention to the calorie count. How is your Army husband, what's he doing for Thanksgiving?

570 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:34:07pm

re: #562 Carridine

And speaking of praise, breakfast brunch calls...

Praise be!

Amen.

571 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:34:07pm

re: #558 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I like cake.

You... you... fat bastard!

572 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #553 Buster Bunny

Uhm... that's what HE was, Buster, and you take issue with... what exactly in what I posted?

573 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:34:59pm

re: #330 ArmyWife

Are we sharing recipies? I'll trade a venison anything for a really good sweet potato beyond the normal southern type with pecans and marshmallows...

Venison pulled Bar-b-que? Southern Fried Venison steak? Super easy slow cooker venison stew (works with beef, too)? Tell me what you want!

Maple roasted sweet potatoes and cranberries

6 +/- sweet potatoes (depending on size)
1 bag cranberries
1/2 cup butter (original recipe called for 1 cup; I found it too greasy)
1 cup real maple syrup
1/4 teaspoon salt

melt butter and maple syrup together in small saucepan. stir in salt.

peel sweet potatoes and cut into bite sized pieces. wash cranberries and pick out the yucky ones. grease big casserole dish, and mix sweet potato pieces and cranberries in it. Pour butter/syrup over them, stir, and put in 375 degree oven. Cook until sweet potatoes get nice and soft, stirring occasionally.

30 minutes? 45 minutes? I just cook until the SP are really nice and soft.

I don't eat venison....

574 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:35:21pm

re: #558 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I like cake.

bu, bu, but, the cake's for Mandy . . . ., ah okay, I'll make a cake for you, too!

575 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:35:45pm

re: #569 outsidephilly

He is home, so he will be basting and smoking turkeys!

576 Alouette  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:35:52pm

re: #552 outsidephilly

?saffron threads? I'm not familiar with saffron threads, could you explain, please?

Charles posts an open thread here with this picture.

577 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:35:59pm

re: #544 Occasional Reader

Oh - I used to have a grease gun in .45 caliber. Had 6 30-round magazines - no problem.

578 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:36:00pm

re: #568 legalpad

I have a thirty-rounder for my Glock 26 - no real problem. Jamming can be caused by a lot of things, including bad magazines, but it is not just their capacity. But magazine capacity is something non-gun people think will affect shooters in "gun-free" zones. But of course they are idiots. It's the fact that no one else has a gun that is the problem.

Gun Free Zone = Unarmed Victim Zone.

Anyone every consider why so many shooters choose Unarmed Victim Zones, and not say a gun shop?

579 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:36:17pm

re: #565 MandyManners

Interesting- youtube's gone widescreen.

580 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:36:43pm

re: #573 funky chicken

Perfect! I am sorry you don't eat venison. If it tasted gamey to you, it wasn't processed correctly. Give it another try. Unless you have a personal aversion to eating bambi, which I understand, too.

581 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:36:50pm

re: #555 lawhawk

Well, if you want to see the full list of pardons from the Clinton Administration, here you go, courtesy of the US Office of Pardon Attorney:

For President Clinton, he pardoned these people, and commuted the sentences of these people.

Good Gadzooks...thank you for that...makes me wonder what floodgates will open here soon. Is there any limit to the number a President can pardon or commute? Esp in light of Ayers' views on our jail system...uhhh...not that 0 is of the same ilk...

582 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:36:57pm

re: #576 Alouette

Charles posts an open thread here with this picture.


Looks like Charles deGaulle to me.

583 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:37:14pm

re: #567 Buster Bunny

Guy cloned himself trying to get more done. But his clone was so foul mouthed that it kept getting him in trouble. Assuming that since it wasn't a real human, he could kill it. Pushed it off of a cliff.

Was arrested anyway...

...Wait for it...

...for making an obscene clone fall.

584 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:37:21pm
585 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:37:43pm

I have a 50 round drum for my Marlin Camp 45.
You never know. Might need to engage in a protracted stand off one day.
The barrel can get pretty hot if I really go at it.

586 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:37:45pm

re: #503 Palandine

Great noir crime series I read kind of involves that a bit. You can get the first 3 books at amazon.com. Search for Berlin Noir by Phillip Kerr, I believe.

adult content, violence, sex, etc. Well written, and really creepy.

587 Buster Bunny  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:37:48pm

re: #572 Carridine

Uhm... that's what HE was, Buster, and you take issue with... what exactly in what I posted?

I am not an undigested bit of Gods dinner. I am definitely the leftovers from the all you can eat meal he got down at the pub on friday night .. pre-Sabbath. Something like two sausages .. some chips a little coleslaw and a lot of salad. Washed down with some beer and pina-coladas.

And you can bet your heck at the end of that day God saw it was good !

588 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:38:30pm

re: #578 jcm

In response, I would LOVE TO POST the link to a news item of a yoho who DID go to a gun shop, pull a weapon and shout, "This is a stickup!' before the 8 off-duty cops and two guys behind the counter opened fire on him...

He was DOA and nobody else was hurt.

/Darwinism at its finest!

589 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:38:32pm

re: #565 MandyManners

Here's an excuse to ratchet down some emotions.

And I dinged you up because I love that song.

590 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:38:46pm

re: #564 jcm

so where out side of philly would I find saffron? (I'm not very good at this cooking stuff . . . . . )

591 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:40:07pm

re: #588 Carridine

In response, I would LOVE TO POST the link to a news item of a yoho who DID go to a gun shop, pull a weapon and shout, "This is a stickup!' before the 8 off-duty cops and two guys behind the counter opened fire on him...

He was DOA and nobody else was hurt.

/Darwinism at its finest!

Kent, WA. I've been in that gun shop. He walked around a cop car to go in.

Suicide, thinks I.

592 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:40:29pm
The purpose of this competition is to raise young people’s awareness of ________ which has inflicted immense damage on mankind..

Fill in the blank. I pick alternating current. Without AC we wouldn't have any of these problems today.

593 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:40:50pm

re: #576 Alouette

Charles posts an open thread here with this picture.

re: #575 ArmyWife

hope y'all have a wonderful Thanksgiving snuggle day!

594 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:41:26pm

re: #592 Mich-again

Fill in the blank. I pick alternating current. Without AC we wouldn't have any of these problems today.

Fire.....

It was all down hill after that.

595 Carridine  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:41:40pm

re: #587 Buster Bunny

Well, in THAT case, allow me to LMAO! :D

596 Basho  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:42:04pm

re: #592 Mich-again

Fill in the blank. I pick alternating current. Without AC we wouldn't have any of these problems today.

Edison was right! Curse you, AC current!

597 tommygum  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:42:29pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Evening Wood!

Any relation to morning wood?

598 outsidephilly  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:42:30pm

re: #576 Alouette

Charles posts an open thread here with this picture.

thanks, Alouette
(I mixed up my reply to you with a reply to ArmyWife, sorry about that)

599 Buster Bunny  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:42:33pm
Oktar proceeds to offer a long laundry list of anti-evolution talking points, helpful suggestions to the contestants about areas on which they should focus their research; a little intelligent design here, some young earth creationism there, irreducible complexity and the second law of thermodynamics, etc., ad nauseam. Ending with point #17, with which I dare you to argue:

Do not mention point #17 !

600 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:42:53pm

re: #581 Right mind left

No. The right to pardon and commute federal sentences is absolute and there are no limits on the number of people that can be pardoned.

601 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:43:01pm

re: #592 Mich-again

Fill in the blank. I pick alternating current. Without AC we wouldn't have any of these problems today.

How about corruption? Although AC ***seems*** profoundly damaging, I think more good has come of that than corruption...or plague, or diabetes...

602 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:43:22pm

re: #579 Sharmuta

Interesting- youtube's gone widescreen.

Why, yest it has! Another excuse to listen to Mr. Denver.

603 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:43:28pm

Getting down with The Ting Tings. Thanks Tesla.

604 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:43:55pm

re: #578 jcm

Gun Free Zone = Unarmed Victim Zone.

Anyone every consider why so many shooters choose Unarmed Victim Zones, and not say a gun shop?

The idiot anti-gunners don't. Nor do they think about how they are going to stop the flow of illegal guns from Mexico.

My psycho-lefty neighbor had asked my wife to feed his cats while they were out of town. She went up there one time and there were some guys banging around on something in the back. Since the neighbor had said no one was coming to his house while he was out, she was concerned and came to get me. I was, of course, armed, and she happened to mention this to him when he got back, in an appropriate context. His only reaction was, "You mean there was a gun in MY house? She noticed he wasn't concerned about risk to her. Apparently this moron thinks guns are animate, and roam around at will, shooting people on their own.

605 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:44:15pm

re: #584 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And maybe ratchet up a good-time grin?

Indeed!

606 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:44:42pm

re: #585 rawmuse

You should see M-4s after two or three hundred rounds. I was certainly surprised. I've seen semi-auto AR-15s and they'd get hot, but the M-4 you have to give a break and let it cool down from time to time.

607 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:45:36pm

re: #601 Right mind left

How about corruption?

No thanks. Trying to cut down.

608 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:45:42pm

re: #600 lawhawk

No. The right to pardon and commute federal sentences is absolute and there are no limits on the number of people that can be pardoned.

Oh. Be free, be free...prosper one and all...we have the need to recruit a National Security Force...answer this questionnaire, be advised all answers are considered good answers.../

609 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:46:28pm

re: #588 Carridine

In response, I would LOVE TO POST the link to a news item of a yoho who DID go to a gun shop, pull a weapon and shout, "This is a stickup!' before the 8 off-duty cops and two guys behind the counter opened fire on him...

He was DOA and nobody else was hurt.

/Darwinism at its finest!

There's an apocryphal story about a guy who tried to stick up a bank in downtown DC at lunchtime one Friday, back in the 70s.

At lunchtime. On a Friday.

Near FBI headquarters.

A couple dozen FBI agents, waiting on line to deposit their paychecks, quickly pulled their guns, and subdued him.

Worst.... bank heist... EVAH.

610 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:46:48pm

re: #589 Sharmuta

And I dinged you up because I love that song.

I live this every day.

In the mornin hour she calls me
The radio reminds me of my home far away
And drivin down the road I get a feelin
That I should have been home yesterday, yesterday

611 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:46:56pm

re: #607 Mich-again

No thanks. Trying to cut down.

Funny. :)

612 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:47:18pm

re: #604 legalpad

Your gun might have left offspring that will grow up into full size guns and shoot up him and his house I guess.
/

613 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:47:30pm

re: #552 outsidephilly

Saffron threads

[Link: www.ochef.com...]

614 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:47:37pm

re: #513 Stonemason

Not a good joke but had an entire thread giggling last night

Yeah, but the part about O.J. and Moore was true.

615 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:47:47pm

re: #601 Right mind left

How about corruption? Although AC ***seems*** profoundly damaging, I think more good has come of that than corruption...or plague, or diabetes...


Mich is right, can't trust alternating current, its shifty.

616 Right mind left  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:48:12pm

re: #615 lifeofthemind

Mich is right, can't trust alternating current, its shifty.

And shocking.

617 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:48:12pm

re: #594 jcm

Fire.....

It was all down hill after that.

Vertebrae. That's my answer.

Ever seen a glum invertebrate? You haven't, have you?

618 kimbob  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:48:12pm

A bit late in this thread, actually had to work all day. Interestingly enough, although Oktar is a bit of a nutter, his argument has a few interesting parallels to Hobbes in Leviathan, "Yet still the object is one thing, the image or fancy is another. So that Sense in all cases, is nothing els but original fancy, caused (as I have said) by the pressure, that is, by the motion, of externall things upon our Eyes, Eares and other organs therunto ordained". Of course, I never could figure out what
Hobbes was talking about either.

619 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:48:20pm

re: #612 jcm

Your gun might have left offspring that will grow up into full size guns and shoot up him and his house I guess.
/

LOL - Yeah - That's about right.

620 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:48:41pm

re: #609 Occasional Reader

There's an apocryphal story about a guy who tried to stick up a bank in downtown DC at lunchtime one Friday, back in the 70s.

At lunchtime. On a Friday.

Near FBI headquarters.

A couple dozen FBI agents, waiting on line to deposit their paychecks, quickly pulled their guns, and subdued him.

Worst.... bank heist... EVAH.

re: #609 Occasional Reader

There's an apocryphal story about a guy who tried to stick up a bank in downtown DC at lunchtime one Friday, back in the 70s.

At lunchtime. On a Friday.

Near FBI headquarters.

A couple dozen FBI agents, waiting on line to deposit their paychecks, quickly pulled their guns, and subdued him.

Worst.... bank heist... EVAH.

Is his nic now "computerdude" here?

621 rawmuse  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:48:45pm

re: #606 Iron Fist

I was so green I gave myself a nice little 2nd degree burn when I touched the barrel. I still have the scar, and that was several years ago.
I admit I have to learn things the hard way sometimes.

622 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:49:39pm

re: #606 Iron Fist

You should see M-4s after two or three hundred rounds. I was certainly surprised. I've seen semi-auto AR-15s and they'd get hot, but the M-4 you have to give a break and let it cool down from time to time.

You know, here we are trying to talk about lofty, intellectual issues, and you keep rambling on about guns.

It's sad, really.

[sniff]

623 ArmyWife  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:49:53pm

Last recipe, then upstairs.

Easy Schmeezy Biscuit Stew

1.2-2 lbs stew meat (I use venison, shocker)
1 can cream of celery soup (you can use mushroom, too, if you like fungi)
1 packet dried onion soup mix
1 can beef broth or veggie broth.

Throw all together in a Crockpot and cook on low 5 hours or longer. Serve over mashed potatoes or a biscuit cut in half. Great on a cold night!

624 lifeofthemind  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:49:57pm

re: #609 Occasional Reader

A couple dozen FBI agents, waiting on line to deposit their paychecks, quickly pulled their guns, and subdued him.

Sounds like an argument against direct deposit.

625 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #580 ArmyWife

sniffles Bambi.

well, and we don't hunt, so venison is really expensive! grass fed beef and bison are easier to come by.

626 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:52:10pm

re: #577 legalpad

I don't know as I would advertise that so much. Not everyone reading these threads is friendly, if you know what I mean.

627 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:52:25pm

re: #609 Occasional Reader

There's the story of the bank robber. Wrote a hold up note, which tellers are trained to keep if possible, and she did.

On the back of his appointment card with his parole officer for later in the afternoon. An appointment which he dutifully kept.

628 Occasional Reader  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:52:51pm

re: #604 legalpad

Apparently this moron thinks guns are animate, and roam around at will, shooting people on their own.

Remember the "DC sniper"? (Who turned out to be snipers, plural, one with a last name of Muhammad, which keeps turning up in these sorts of things) Judging from some of the Washington Post coverage at the time, you'd have thought the same thing. There's this GUN, see, that keeps going off, in random parts of the Washington metro area... human volition has nothing to do with it.

629 pingjockey  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:55:21pm

re: #620 MandyManners
What? Have it and Nemisis6 been harassing y'all while I've been at work?

630 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:55:29pm

re: #616 Right mind left

And its three-phased.

631 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:55:50pm

re: #626 Iron Fist

Thanks. I appreciate that. But I don't have it now, and it was completely legal.

632 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:56:47pm

re: #628 Occasional Reader

You seldom hear about the 750,000 confirmed times a year a legally held gun prevents a crime, or the estimate 2,000,000 time a year it happens.

In fact they go out of there way to bury parts of the story when a gun is used to stop a crime.

633 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:57:01pm

re: #628 Occasional Reader

You don't have your guns trained to kill? Man, that's the first trick you teach them :-)

634 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 7:59:07pm

re: #628 Occasional Reader

Oh, they are very careful how they talk about shooters. They edit their stories so their airhead readers won't realize that it is always another gun that stops a shooter, and the fewer other guns there are, the more people get shot.

635 Stonemason  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:00:22pm

re: #590 outsidephilly

Wegemans in Downingtown has Saffron.

636 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:05:52pm

re: #631 legalpad

If you want a really cool toy, check out a semi-auto PKM. I stumbled across it by chance in a magazine. The price is very reasonable for what you are getting. It's six grand, but it's definately in the catagory of rare and unusual weapons.

I've seen a semi-auto M-240, too. Even nicer, but this one costs $13,500.

637 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:07:31pm

re: #636 Iron Fist

If you want a really cool toy, check out a semi-auto PKM. I stumbled across it by chance in a magazine. The price is very reasonable for what you are getting. It's six grand, but it's definately in the catagory of rare and unusual weapons.

I've seen a semi-auto M-240, too. Even nicer, but this one costs $13,500.

Mount that sucker in the back of my truck, those turds in Prius' would think twice about cutting me off.
;-)

638 dak  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:10:16pm

One needs to get a mid-ice cross-check, or a slapshot to the cup.

Then you will experience matter in very firsthand, personal and direct fashion. All those electrical impulses theory and philosophical bullshit will seem very irrelevant. You will know something very hard just knocked you on your ass.

Welcome to the real world.

639 Wm T Sherman  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:10:55pm

Is this the same guy who published an expensive creationism book with a picture of a fishing lure that was presented as a insect?

640 Opilio  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:11:00pm

re: #555 lawhawk

For President Clinton, he pardoned these people, and commuted the sentences of these people.


Interesting lists. Among the pardons:

• Henry Ossian Flipper, U.S. Army, Conduct unbecoming an Officer, 1881.
• Freddie Meeks, U.S. Navy, Making a mutiny during wartime, 1944
• Antonio Barucco, U.S. Army, Desertion, 1945

And among the sentence commutations, one individual received TWO of them:

Juan Raul Garza, Homicide in furtherance of a continuing criminal enterprise.
• On Aug 2, 2000, Clinton moved Garza's execution from Aug 5 to Dec 12.
• On Dec 11, he effectively moved the date again from Dec 12 to June 19.

On June 19, 2001, Garza became the 2nd person executed by the Federal Government since 1963. Timothy McVeigh had been executed 8 days earlier.

641 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:14:42pm

re: #636 Iron Fist

Cool, but BIG - I could unscrew the barrel from my grease gun and put it in a brief case. But I sold it because I grew tired of spending hundreds of dollars worth of ammo every time I shot it.

642 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:14:58pm

re: #637 jcm

This is what you need for a truck mounted weapon. They actually had one of those for sale here earlier this year. It came with 12,000 rounds of belted ammo. It cost upward of $25,000.

It didn't take long to sell.

Wah.

643 Iron Fist  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:18:34pm

re: #641 legalpad

That's part of the joys of owning such a thing. I've got a friend who has two legal machineguns. One is an MP 5, the other is a 51. Very nice weapons. They cost a small fortune.

644 bebe's boobs destroy  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:23:45pm

re: #280 LoFlyer

Oh man, now I'm always gonna picture Mandy decked out like Pam Anderson in Barbed Wire, rather than Laura Petrie in her cashmere sweater sets.

645 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:26:09pm

re: #642 Iron Fist

This is what you need for a truck mounted weapon. They actually had one of those for sale here earlier this year. It came with 12,000 rounds of belted ammo. It cost upward of $25,000.

It didn't take long to sell.

Wah.

Drool, drool, drool.....

646 jcm  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:27:37pm

re: #643 Iron Fist

That's part of the joys of owning such a thing. I've got a friend who has two legal machineguns. One is an MP 5, the other is a 51. Very nice weapons. They cost a small fortune.

Did you ever see this?

Heck I might have gotten the link from you....

647 Outrider  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:34:07pm

re: #514 ArmyWife

Preheat oven to 500 degrees.


Would that be 500 Fahrenheit or 500 Centigrade? ;-)>

648 tommygum  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:34:22pm

re: #636 Iron Fist

If you want a really cool toy, check out a semi-auto PKM. I stumbled across it by chance in a magazine. The price is very reasonable for what you are getting. It's six grand, but it's definately in the catagory of rare and unusual weapons.

I've seen a semi-auto M-240, too. Even nicer, but this one costs $13,500.

About 5 years ago, I took a ride with my brother to this guy's house on Long Island to buy ammo. He had LEGAL semi-auto EVERYTHING. From Uzis and Stens to ma deuce, which dominated his living room. Patchett, Owens, PPSH41, Thompson with original 1921 C drum, Skorpion, BAR, M3A1, SW76, MP40, Bren gun, twin Lewis guns on AA mount, beltfeds (Maxim, Browning, Nambu), you name it. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Lotta take-home pay in that house. Oh, glass cases of old blackpowder rifles.

649 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:37:29pm

re: #639 Wm T Sherman

Yes.

650 drmark  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:48:49pm

Thanks for thinking of the creationists here Charles.

651 So?  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:51:46pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

They just made further disoveries about this last week: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

Are you sure there wasn't a typo in the article? I always thought they were vacuum flatuations.

652 So?  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 8:52:20pm

re: #651 So?

Are you sure there wasn't a typo in the article? I always thought they were vacuum flatuations.

flatulations.

653 Salamantis  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:02:34pm

re: #273 itellu3times

The idea that we only know our senses, and/or that our senses are not explainable in material terms, does not disprove the material world behaves this way or that.

It may allow for forces other than the material, but it does not demonstrate them at work or identify what they are.

so, cancel ol' #17

We cannot completely perceptually circumscribe the phenomenal world; it is inexhaustable. We cannot ever see perceive everything there is to perceive about any perceivable object, much less the entire cosmos. But what we CAN say is that, in each particular case, since our perceptions of any object are part of its whole, it must be such that the whole (perceived + unperceived) does not contradict the perceived part. We do not create the world we perceive in the act of perceiving it; instead, we perceptually construct representations of what is already present independent of our perceptions. And, under environmental selection pressures, species have evolved in such ways that they can increasingly accurately perceptually represent the environing world presented to them via their sensory modalities, for the more exact and precise is the world-representation of species members, the greater the chances are that these world-representers will be able to successfully navigate its ecological niches, take from them what they need, avoid what is dangerous to them, and survive to reproduce.

654 Marvo76  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:04:33pm

I think I will pass on this one, I found that my info seems to be all wet due to tutoring (and some negative feedback from my fellow lizards). I would be better served learning from folks on here some of the nuances I seems to have missed (or been misled by)

655 Lynn B.  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:09:05pm

re: #635 Stonemason

Wegemans in Downingtown has Saffron.

That would be Wegmans.

I'm pretty sure they have it at Carlino's in Ardmore but for sure at Food Source in Bryn Mawr. Also any Whole Foods should have it and maybe Trader Joe's too. Don't know where outside Philly Outside Philly lives though.

656 Salamantis  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:12:17pm

re: #325 frank14

The evolutionist wackos lost me when I found out that Darwin's evangelist, Ernst Haeckel, was a fraud. As soon as they show me where information increases through evolution I'll be on board...ROTFLOL!

You wave a few discredited people in front of our faces and ignore the millions of others whose work is valid, solid, and empirically sound. And information can increase via repeated iterations of environmental selection and the continual accretion of functional changes, each successful mutation becoming the new baseline from which further mutations issue.

657 BLBfootballs  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:15:17pm
But all these are merely perceptions. It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns. This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter.

Well, I'm certainly convinced!

Seriously, doofuses like these give all religion a terrible name.

658 Scorch  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:22:02pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Well that's a boatload of bullshit. I don't have faith, don't need faith, and don't give a hoot about faith, since science takes care of the knowing.

There is a BIG difference between knowledge and believing.

You have faith. Science is great in helping understand the world we live in but what is it that sustains you when scientific theories are often found to be lacking? Your faith in future scientific discoveries.

659 Salamantis  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:36:37pm

re: #346 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I am what you call an evolutionist with questions. I believe that there is an overwhelming body of irrefutable scientific evidence showing evolution takes place. I also believe that there are some very big questions about evolution that have not yet been answered and pose major scientific challenges to evolution as the sole explanation for life as we know it:

How did eyes evolve? In particular, the integration of the central nervous system with the optic cells of the retina?

Once you have answered THAT you can move to the bonus round, explain how DNA evolved and how the self-replicating encrypted strings that make up DNA evolved? How is it possible in nature for DNA modifications to take place from environmental factors? It is one thing to assert that the squirrels that ran faster got away from the predators, and passed on their fast genes but there should be hundreds of evolutionary stages of squirrels, AustraloSquirrelicus and Peking Squirrel, there is jsut no record to match that hisotry to say nothing of a satisfactory explanation of how quantum leaps of specuies with advanced abilities happened so fast. The speed of evolution has to have happened within the known paleontological dates, for some changes, the evolution would have to have been extremely rapid with almost every generation getting the exact right improvement; yet we see no evidence of cows, dogs or cats evolving at all, so what stops it? In additions there should be examples of failed designs that nevertheless survived.

The evolution of the eye has been explained in past posts on this blog; for instance, this one:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Also, how DNA came to be involves first RNA, the single helix; this study is not specifically to do with evolution, but instead with Origins Of Life theory (OOL) and there has been an LGF post on this also:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

There has been many millions more years for rodents to evolve from their distant ancestors who scurried around avoiding dinosaur toes more than 65 million years ago than there has been for humans to do so from protohominids (lemur-like creatures) dating back no more than 20 million years.

As to dogs, cats and cows not evolving, we have selectively bred many different breeds of them in the few thousand years (an evolutionary eyeblink) that they have been domesticated. If they were to become geographically isolated from each other for millions of years, they most likely would diverge first to the point where they could only interbreed to produce infertile offspring, such as when lions breed with tigers to produce tigons and ligers or when horses breed with donkeys to produce mules, and then to the point where they could not interbreed at all, at which point they would have completed the journey to becoming separate species. And sometimes, as is the case with the Morgan Horse, a new dominant mutation spontaneously appears before our very eyes. The definition of a failed design is one that does not survive, but becomes extinct. If it continues to live on, it must be successful enough within its environment to perdure. And the exactly right (or close enough to it) improvement is the one that survives; all those other mutations that weren't exactly right enough aren't around - because they weren't exactly right enough to survive.

660 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:38:25pm

re: #632 jcm

You also seldom hear that a real tyranny has never managed to establish itself in our country, because there are too many rifles in the hands of just citizens.

Good night all.

661 Scorch  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:38:29pm

re: #604 legalpad

The idiot anti-gunners don't. Nor do they think about how they are going to stop the flow of illegal guns from Mexico.

My psycho-lefty neighbor had asked my wife to feed his cats while they were out of town. She went up there one time and there were some guys banging around on something in the back. Since the neighbor had said no one was coming to his house while he was out, she was concerned and came to get me. I was, of course, armed, and she happened to mention this to him when he got back, in an appropriate context. His only reaction was, "You mean there was a gun in MY house? She noticed he wasn't concerned about risk to her. Apparently this moron thinks guns are animate, and roam around at will, shooting people on their own.

ROFL man I missed some good stuff in here. Have you all seen the Beretta Xtrema 2?
[Link: video.google.com:80...]

662 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:40:20pm

re: #651 So?

They just made further disoveries about this last week: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

" If you stare at something long enough you will go cross-eyed. "

Good night again.

663 Salamantis  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 9:46:39pm

re: #357 Crux Australis

For what it's worth I am an Old Earth Creationist or "progressive" creationist.

Astrophysics and the geological record would tend to discount a young universe and young earth.

The geological record would also discount Darwinian Macro-Evolution. Lack of transitional forms - "missing links"

Transitional forms of all kinds have been found:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

There is also a meticulous fossil skeletal record of the changes that happened when some land mammals returned to the sea and became whales, porpoises and dolphins, as well as transitional fossils from dinosaurs to birds.

Creationists are unable to explain this at all:

Darwin's Surprise
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

664 Salamantis  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:03:55pm

ChargerGirl has only 29 posts, with a karma of -68. Her one post on this thread was deleted. So what does she do? She serially downdings me, without replying to my posts.

Coward.

665 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:12:24pm

re: #55 Naso Tang

Just as a point of interest, QM does say that it is possible that your hand can pass through the table; it's just not very likely.

That happened to me just a couple of weeks ago. Worse still, my hand got stuck there. Nicked my thumb with the Skilsaw getting my hand free. That smarted.

666 legalpad  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:13:58pm

re: #661 Scorch

ROFL man I missed some good stuff in here. Have you all seen the Beretta Xtrema 2?
[Link: video.google.com:80...]

OK - I'll be buying one of those - 12 shots - I wonder if it's those short shotgun shells.

667 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:21:11pm

re: #143 buzzsawmonkey

Nature abhors a vacuum.

That's why Filter Queens were created, not evolved!

668 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:30:28pm

re: #179 father_of_10

My Kirby out sucks your FilterQueen! I spit in the general direction of your vacuum!

And that's all you have to do. Filter Queens have such a strong suction, that any debris in their general vicinity gets swallowed up, not unlike stray space ships near a black hole.

Kirbys, on the other hand, come with a pair of miniature Pinschers to herd the dust bunnies into the chute.

669 gman  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:41:03pm

re: #664 Salamantis

ChargerGirl has only 29 posts, with a karma of -68. Her one post on this thread was deleted. So what does she do? She serially downdings me, without replying to my posts.

Coward.

I'm seeing a lot of newbie one- issue trolls on the creationist and same- sex marriage threads. Coincidence? I don't think so.

670 Daryl Herbert  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:50:40pm

(18) The experience of breakfast absolutely obviates Darwinist philosophy...

One reality scientifically proven n our century is that we never have direct perception of the composition of substances consumed for nutritious value, such as the meal of breakfast. The substinence provided by the food is not deterministically calculated altogether with matrix substitutions, but holistically is derived from the elemental consciousness of the material compositioning the foodstuff.

The bastard swine Darwinist monkey-men assure us that when we partake in our morning meal the destruction thereof carbon chains and especially aromatic hydrocarbons but not thusly digested for nutritious value. But I have never tasted an "aromatic hydrocarbon" nor neither have I tasted a sugary carbon-chain.

No, I have only tasted food, of various composited mannerism, such as the mannerism of bacon or the mannerism of bread (and the sub-formats of bread, such as the biscuit and the croissant and the bun). Also I find pleasing the mannerism of eggs, pliable in that they may be scrambled, fried, boiled, or in intermediate states thusly as over-easy or Benedict (peace NOT be upon him).

It is the soul bestowed upon human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and tastes foodstuffs, and understands, enjoys, reflects, and chews. It is the soul that experiences flavor, as the perception of foodstuffs and not as an itemized list of aromatic hydrocarbons and sugary carbon structures. When Darwinists eat breakfast, they would have you believe that they experience chemical compounds, in their scientific structures, whereas every thinking man is doubtless familiarized with the experience of flavors from even the youngest age. Close your eyes whilst chewing on some breakfast matter, and you may picture in your mind's eye, in perfect three-dimensional clarity, an image of the food material as it was present on your plate before you rent it with your fork--you will not picture aromatic hydrocarbons or sugary gobs of carbon atoms with hydrogen molecules stuck on.

This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter. I can only warn you of the dangerous materialist conspiracy to undermine the holy purity of your foodstuffs.

671 guftafs  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 10:53:59pm
One reality scientifically proven in our century is that we never have direct experience of the external original of matter. Electric signals reach us by way of our senses, and the image that forms for us in our brains consists solely of these signals. ...

Electrical signals, triggered by what?

But we see highly colored, vivid, active, three-dimensional and perfectly sharp images, hear perfectly clear sounds and perceive a flawless outside world. But all these are merely perceptions.

Perceptions of what?

It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns. This great reality has totally discredited the materialist and Darwinist mindset, which claims that everything consists of matter.

The theory of evolution has no opinion as to the nature of consciousness, if understand it correctly. Strawman. Idiot. Good bye.

672 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 24, 2008 11:11:19pm

re: #149 USBeast

I hate to say this but it is becoming more and more apparent that Science needs a militant wing. Between the Christian fundamentalists and Islam the drive to drag us back into the Dark Ages is getting scary.

Science cannot have a militant wing. It would not be science. But there are forces at work to sustain science. Even in Iran, they don't go to theologians for civil engineers or nuclear weapons. If the trains are to run at all, somebody has to know something about engines, electricity, and so forth.

A taste for truth and a determination to get at it lies at the heart of science. Such a taste can take scientists into rebellion against prevailing orthodoxy, be it Catholic, Communist, or Politically Correct. But the science somehow survives, because in a competitive world, a society that scorns truth in favor of its comfortable myths gets a shocking comeuppance soon enough.

Catholicism relearned an old truth from the brush its mortal agents engineered with Galileo: truth cannot conflict with truth. Communism came at long last to the realization that the color of a cat is irrelevant so long as it catches mice. And so, science survives, because life must go on, and life without truth is life in the world of Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote---over the cliff, ignorant of what is to come, but riding for a fall all the same.

673 leereyno  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:00:55am

re: #12 David IV of Georgia

The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

Sounds like a Marxist describing their notion of "false consciousness"

674 leereyno  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:12:04am

re: #61 reine.de.tout

A breeder?

I'll need the assistance of Elisha Cuthbert to accomplish that, and it might take several...dozen attempts before we are successful. A difficult and daunting task to be sure, but I think I'm the man to do it.

675 sonar  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 2:10:32am

Universal Fail

First: Do not mention Comment #17

B: Carbon dating is fine, FOR ME.
Carbon is WAY HOT, and sweet on me.
Nobody else had better even look at her.

676 Miles  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 2:25:07am

Ok, I'm one of those people who will likely be singled out as an extremist Christian apologist, but I have a question and a laundry-list of why I think America has gone down-hill.

First off, why is it that when I was in school and Christianity and the love of God was taught, we actually respected our teachers and our elders? Nonetheless, we DID do wrong, but expected a harsh ass-whupping punishment for our immature actions?

What's changed since the removal of the American flag and the ability to praise God and the "God-fearing" that our teachers placed upon us? And the fact that teachers were allowed to paddle children?

Children now are given a vacation for unruly activities. My nephew told me that he asked my sister if he could take a day off from school and she said no. So, he and a friend pretended to get into a fight, at school, and the the only punishment they received was a 3-day vacation. If I did that, I'd get a good spanking from both the principal AND my father.

When I was in school, all of my teachers were Christians and actually preached to us. We never grew up being axe-murderers or extremists abortion clinic bombers.

After the Colombine incident, I asked my father (who is an 84 year old veteran of WWII) how many school massacres occurred during his lifetime.

He said NONE! As a matter of fact, he said that kids would bring knives and guns to school to show to the teacher and the other students.

What's changed? Maybe the fact that family has to include a working mother AND father. Maybe that TV and the internet is the new babysitter.

Or maybe that our lives have become so dependent on the fast-track and efficiency and the fact that morality is no longer needed. God has not only become a Santa Clause, imaginary being, but is an enemy to the intelligent.

*sigh*

I dunno...with the election and the stupid politically-correct laws being implemented and the degrading commentary from this site, that I once loved, I'm just at a loss.

I was immediately thrilled, when my child came home from school and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, including the word, "God", one day, after school.

Thank God that West Virginia hasn't (yet) succumbed to the political correctness of some other state's "values".

677 Miles  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:03:39am

....oh, and it will be one of the hardest states for Obama to implement his anti-gun legislation, as Democrats and Republicans, we all observe our right to keep and bear arms.

Good luck, Obama, on taking our guns away from us.

678 Annar  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:07:12am

Like his friend Muhammad ibn Abdullah, Adnar Okhtar should not be left with young girls. But just in case if he manages to stay out of jail in the future long enough to pay off, here's my entry.

Evolution is invalid because 42 is not a perfect number.

QED

679 zeebeach  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:17:29am

I'm always at a disadvantage on these threads, as I read through them early in the AM before starting my day. By the time I've read all comments, we can be way OT. My two cents with respect to Creationism vs. Evolution is this: Why are so many (atheists) so religious in their belief in NO GOD. Why is it so hard to concieve of persons like myself who are fascinated by science, love following the new discoveries and theories, yet am aware that science is studying that which already exists, and therefore was somehow created by something. My studies in Theology have led me to believe that something is what Christians call GOD. I respect others' beliefs when they disagree, because I can't empirically prove my belief is true. I'm OK with that. Why isn't everyone?

680 donk1100[deleted]  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:00:25am
681 Big Dave  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:03:42am

With all respect to the great Lizard King: I have treasured this site for so long as a source for information, music, quotes, and great photography. What I don't understand is why you seem to have so much trouble with those of us who have a theistic world view. I am not a "seven days of creation, five-thousand year old earth" creationist. I have no problem with the solar system being 4+ billion years old, the universe 11+ billion, and the big bang and all that. The problem I have is that most of my experience of contemporary sciences says that's it, there's no more. If you cannot see it and quantify it, it has no meaning or value. My daughter took a class in college on psychology, and her professor and text referred to religion as "folk psychology"--there was no room in his understanding of the human mind for a "soul"--there was only electro-chemical responses in the brain. My reading in contemporary biology (limited, admittedly) has revealed the same disregard for other possibilities. This troubles me, because if what we can quantify is all there is, how do we account for our ability to understand, reflect, and be touched by what we experience--i.e. the soul? I took a mind/body class over twenty years ago in college and explored all the theories of cognition, and none could explain what was really doing the thinking, only how that thinking might work in the brain, not what force made sense of it all. If the physical is all there is, if we are only the sum total of our electro-chemical processes, how do we have the ability to even consider that question? What makes sense of the data?
From this point, there is also the ethical question: If we are only the sum of our electro-chemical processes per mutated through random chance in a universe governed by the same, of what value is my life compared to a rock, or tree, or anything? If I have the power, why should I regard your life as valuable at all if it prevents me from living better? If there is no force in the universe beyond ourselves that we must regard or answer to, why have any moral considerations at all?
In one of the Narnia stories, there is a character called Puddleglum who considers what a world would be like without any such considerations, and he decides that if there were no "god" then such a place would be a very terrifying place to live. If love has only a biological function, respect and loyalty only a function of survival, and "the better angels of our nature" are only creations for social control, then what was evil about Hitler, Stain, Pol Pot, etc.?
Evolution deals quite well with the how, but in its modern iteration, it does not even recognize that there is a why, and that bit of myopia can easily allow us to stumble down a path to a place we do not want to go.

682 Mr Secul  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:04:35am

re: #357 Crux Australis

The geological record would also discount Darwinian Macro-Evolution. Lack of transitional forms - "missing links"

Why do you say that?

Do you not know of any transitional forms or do you believe that all examples are fakes?

683 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:30:42am

re: #19 DesertSage

Does one have to be anti-evolution to be a creationist?

YES.

684 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:40:01am

re: #200 Killgore Trout

Dawkins is another one. I call then evangelical atheists. Beware the believers

Dawkins may have a regrettable tendency to throw the odd hissy fit, but that video was pathetic. Is it from "Expelled" or something?

685 Dasher  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:40:13am

For those concerned about intelligent design, being taught in schools with or without evolution...

I am more concerned about Anthropogenic Global Warming being taught. Is there a difference between ID, and AGW. Both are religious in nature, requiring faith. ID causes no real harm to anyone, while belief in AGW can cause great economic harm the economies of many nations, through taxation. And lets face it, that is what AGW is about increasing taxes, and decreasing standards of living to allow socialism to become the world economic system.

686 DocDale  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:40:48am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I'm working on my entry now.

I'm curious about the possibility of yanking their chain by doing something like this. I'm a lawyer, and have had plenty of practice at arguing stuff. All sorts of stuff. I've also won the odd essay competition in my time.

Is this mean-spirited? Help me out here, lizards.

687 Thanos  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:57:57am

re: #681 Big Dave

You've accepted a false dichotomy, and your essay could have been much shorter. You could have just quoted ben stein: "Science leads to killing people". Who says you can't have faith in god, and know science at the same time? Are you extolling the virtue of Allah here since this is a thread about Harun Yahya?

688 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:58:54am

re: #685 Dasher

Co2 is a greenhouse gas. It absorbs heat. The amount of Co2 in the atmosphere has increased as a result of man's activities.

There's nothing religious about those basic facts. Having said that, I would agree that there is a quasi-religious factor in play among the global warming alarmists who want us to give up all the fruits of science and technology in atonement for our sin of spoiling 'the garden'.

ID causes no real harm to anyone

Biotech is going to be one of the most important technologies of the coming age - a country full of ID'ers is not going to be in the running. I find it hard to believe there are still people here who don't understand that countries who fall by the wayside in the sciences, fall by the wayside period.

689 Thanos  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:06:10am

re: #685 Dasher

Sorry but there is no faith required to understand AGW. It exists, you can prove it to yourself with a thermometer and a car on any windless day. The greenhouse theory has been around a long time, was demonstrated and proven before AGW was ever a gleam in a politician's eye.
The question isn't whether or not it exists, but the degree to which it does, the amount that carbon forcing exerts over other factors, and whether or not we should make it a political and waste a lot resources, time, and effort and potential crushing of industries on something we don't know enough about yet. Please don't muddy the very worthy debate, and our opposition to AGW with assertions that AGW is based on faith, it's not. If you want to call the political wing of AGW proponents pseudo science, that's fine, don't call it faith however, you make all opponents look dim by doing so.

690 Mr Secul  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:08:42am

I had to break up this reply because it got too big...

re: #346 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I am what you call an evolutionist with questions. I believe that there is an overwhelming body of irrefutable scientific evidence showing evolution takes place. I also believe that there are some very big questions about evolution that have not yet been answered and pose major scientific challenges to evolution as the sole explanation for life as we know it:

How did eyes evolve? In particular, the integration of the central nervous system with the optic cells of the retina?

Pass, don't know. Why was that a BIG question?

Once you have answered THAT you can move to the bonus round, explain how DNA evolved and how the self-replicating encrypted strings that make up DNA evolved?

Given imperfect copying, how could it do anything but evolve?

Prior to some puzzling experiments with mice it was assumed that only natural selection could keep DNA sequences 'fixed'.

Are you asking: 'why do organisms use DNA? why that molecule?'

This is getting into origins territory. DNA forms the molecular basis of inheritance but that's an implementation detail, there are other molecules that could do the job.

But, OK...

DNA is 'just' RNA with one oxygen atom missing. The RNA world hypothesis suggests that genes were initially encoded using RNA. The idea is that life would have started with some system of self replicating molecules. These molecules may have been RNAs.

As soon as you have any form of replicator then it is possible for those replicators to evolve. All you need is good but imperfect copying and some form of selection pressure.

Organisms may have switched from RNA to DNA to hold its genes because DNA is more stable. But we really don't know yet. We may never know exactly what happened. Time will tell.

How is it possible in nature for DNA modifications to take place from environmental factors?

The DNA changes happen due to copying errors.

This is a normal result of an imperfect copying system. It could be argued that nothing physical is perfect. DNA is also deliberately reshuffled during meiosis in eukaryotes.

Environmental stress can increase DNA copying error rates but the errors are still random errors. The environment is not influencing the types of error. (Except that the proportion of errors due to bad copying will be greater.)

OTOH, the environment selects the fittest DNA sequences out of the population.

So the combination of random mutation plus natural selection drives evolution.

But this is pretty basic stuff.

I'm out of time so I have to post what I've got.

691 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:11:10am

re: #680 donk1100

Spoken like a true chiropractomatologist.

692 Thanos  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:15:44am

re: #676 Miles

I dunno...with the election and the stupid politically-correct laws being implemented and the degrading commentary from this site, that I once loved, I'm just at a loss.

How is this post in any way picking on Christians? What do you find in this thread that's degrading to Christians? Are you perhaps being a bit sensitive here?

693 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:17:00am

To anyone who is thinking of entering this competition, I reckon the best strategy would be to slavishly recycle everything Harun Yahya has ever said on the subject - right up to the point of actual plagiarism. He probably just wants reassurance that his attempts at brainwashing his public are working.

694 Dasher  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:20:32am

re: #688 Jimmah


There is a major difference between AGW and GW. The entire atmosphere is a green house gas. Maybe we should be attacking Nitrogen instead of Carbon Dioxide, since N is 78 percent of the atmosphere. AGW assumes global warming is man made. That's the A (Anthropogenic) part. Man made CO2 is a small portion of the total CO2, and CO2 concentration lags the temperature rise by many years. It is a correlation not a causation. One can as easily argue that global warming causes atmospheric CO2 to increase, a much easier argument than the the opposite.

695 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:34:22am
Man made CO2 is a small portion of the total CO2, and CO2 concentration lags the temperature rise by many years. It is a correlation not a causation. One can as easily argue that global warming causes atmospheric CO2 to increase, a much easier argument than the the opposite.

That is Al Gore's argument you are presenting, and yes, it is faulty. But Al Gore isn't Science. His argument on the historical correlation between Co2 and temperature is both wrong and irrelevant.

As Thanos said in 685, the question is over the extent and consequences of AGW, not whether it is real or not. There are those on both extremes of this argument who can come off as 'religious' in their unshakeable convictions.

Given that we've only been studying this problem for such a short time, it's hard to see how those convictions on either side can be supported.

696 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:52:52am

re: #690 Mr Secul

Thanks what great answer and just the kind of intelligent discussion I love at LGF.

All of what you say makes sense but it doesn't satisfy me how an organism might evolve DNA and then how DNA could create the variety of successful species. As I said I am skeptic. I worry about evolutionists asserting more to the theory than has yet been proven. But you lay out a great argument and it forces me to look into it more.

697 zimriel  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:00:51am

re: #41 buzzsawmonkey

I would think that a mastery of impenetrable jargon would do the trick--like that postmodern physics paper that was submitted to some journal or other a few years ago.

You're thinking of Alan Sokal's offering to Social Text. Lulz.

698 Zimriel  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:10:45am

re: #679 zeebeach

I'm always at a disadvantage on these threads, as I read through them early in the AM before starting my day. By the time I've read all comments, we can be way OT. My two cents with respect to Creationism vs. Evolution is this: Why are so many (atheists) so religious in their belief in NO GOD. Why is it so hard to concieve of persons like myself who are fascinated by science, love following the new discoveries and theories, yet am aware that science is studying that which already exists, and therefore was somehow created by something. My studies in Theology have led me to believe that something is what Christians call GOD. I respect others' beliefs when they disagree, because I can't empirically prove my belief is true. I'm OK with that. Why isn't everyone?

That's not "two cents with respect to Creationism vs. Evolution". That's two cents with respect to religion vs. atheism.

I respect others' beliefs when they stay on topic and argue the point on its own terms. I'm OK with that. Why aren't creationist propaganda whiners okay with that?

699 Zimriel  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:24:31am

re: #660 Ojoe

You also seldom hear that a real tyranny has never managed to establish itself in our country, because there are too many rifles in the hands of just citizens.

Good night all.

I can think of three examples of tyranny in our history: Woodrow Wilson at the presidential level, Brigham Young at the territorial level, and Huey Long at the state level.

In these examples, there were many rifles in the hands of unjust citizens, who supported the tyrants. The point of tyranny, in the Greek sense, is that it gets into power by means of democratic acclaim.

The tyrannies of Wilson and Young were weakened by extraneous forces (a stroke in the former case, a series of federal-level interventions in the latter). Huey Long was asssassinated.

So really what you are advocating is Brutus's Veto.

700 Yashmak  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:29:52am
It is the soul bestowed on human beings by Allah (God) that perceives, sees and hears them, that understands, thinks, rejoices and yearns.

So, since dogs, termites, pollywogs, etc, all see things in 3-d etc. etc. . . they have souls too? Shoot, I don't know if I'm comfortable with my hot-wings having souls.

701 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:51:38am

re: #685 Dasher

For those concerned about intelligent design, being taught in schools with or without evolution...

I am more concerned about Anthropogenic Global Warming being taught.

Um- okay. Except this isn't about AGW. This is about ID. And if you really want AGW dealt with the answer is more and better science education, not weakening it with ID.

702 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:55:45am

re: #681 Big Dave

Evolution deals quite well with the how, but in its modern iteration, it does not even recognize that there is a why

Because that is not the question evolution answers! It's like you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Realize that evolution does not deal with "why", it deals with "how" and nothing but "how", and maybe that will help you.

703 Serotonin  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 8:10:57am

Maybe this guy should enter the competition.
[Link: naturalselection.0catch.com...]

704 Lynn B.  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 8:12:37am

re: #679 zeebeach

I'm always at a disadvantage on these threads, as I read through them early in the AM before starting my day. By the time I've read all comments, we can be way OT. My two cents with respect to Creationism vs. Evolution is this: Why are so many (atheists) so religious in their belief in NO GOD. Why is it so hard to concieve of persons like myself who are fascinated by science, love following the new discoveries and theories, yet am aware that science is studying that which already exists, and therefore was somehow created by something. My studies in Theology have led me to believe that something is what Christians call GOD. I respect others' beliefs when they disagree, because I can't empirically prove my belief is true. I'm OK with that. Why isn't everyone?

What "everyone" are you talking about? Most people here are perfectly ok with that, as long as you aren't trying to ram it down their throat. This is so obvious that when people continue to ask questions like this over and over and over, I have to wonder ...

705 Mr Secul  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 8:36:48am

re: #696 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Thanks what great answer and just the kind of intelligent discussion I love at LGF.

All of what you say makes sense but it doesn't satisfy me how an organism might evolve DNA

and then how DNA could create the variety of successful species.

That's not DNA's 'job'. Its random mutation and natural selection that drives evolution.

DNA is just the physical medium that stores the genes. Its like the magnetic surfaces in hard disks or the silicon in flash drives, or ink and paper.

DNA is like a long strand of beads. The beads are called nucleotides. There are four kinds of nucleotide in DNA: adenine, thymine, guanine and cytosine.

All nucleotides have a common backbone but they have different groups attached to their backbone.

The clever part is that adenine and thymine attract each other, as do guanine and cytosine.

There are molecule complexes that can walk along a DNA strand and can make a complimentary strand by matching adenines to thymines and guanines to cytosines.

DNA is usually two, complimentary, strands wound round each other.

To copy DNA, walk the strands and, temporarily, separate them - for each strand: make its compliment.

How did this evolve?

I don't really know. What I remember is that some 100 nucleotide long strands of RNA make efficient RNA replicases. They can replicate other strands of RNA.

If memory serves: scientists generated random 100 base pair long RNA molecules. They placed them in an environment were they could replicate. They took samples of the best replicators and used them in successive rounds of replication.

They quickly evolved RNA replicases with high fidelity and high replication rates.

I'm dredging this from my memory and the original source was a book.

But I did a quick google and came up with this.

Scroll down to In Vitro Evolution of Ligase Ribozymes, It sounds like it fits the bill but I'd need to refer to the original book to find its references and see if any are available on line.

As I said I am skeptic. I worry about evolutionists asserting more to the theory than has yet been proven. But you lay out a great argument and it forces me to look into it more.

On one hand evolution is very simple OTOH I think everybody asks, 'can it really do all that?'

My only answers are:

As long as its not logically impossible for evolution to proceed from a simpler version of a system to a more complex, as long as the in between forms can make a living - then all it needs is time. (And the inclination :-)

I have seen people pick apart evolutionary conundrums that would have stumped me. So as long as I can't see an absolute logical show-stopper then I don't let mere complexity worry me.

Evolution is the best best fit explanation for what I see in nature.

I don't think that I have come across even one example of a definite show-stopper for evolution. Behe's toys don't even come close.

706 Deseeded  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 9:15:32am

Alan Colmes is a good example of the trouble with evolution.

707 amateurpundit  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 9:31:11am

I'm a creationist and a big fan of LGF...although I will admit that I've started feeling a little unwelcome around here. I think science should be taught as science. Period. Teaching that life evolved from the droppings of the Big Bird has no place in science. At the same time, there should be no need to "believe" in evolution, if it's science: science works on the basis of fact and demonstration. Why should I "believe" in evolution? Do I have to "believe" in physics?
Since I'm not a scientist, my intellectual demands are modest (in keeping with my modest brain).
1) Create life in a laboratory
2) Demonstrate how life could come into existence without the laboratory.
3) Publish your results.
4) Throw a party.

708 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 9:59:04am
We do have some LGF readers who are creationists, so we would be remiss if we didn’t bring to your attention a chance to win a prize of 100,000 new Turkish lira (about $63,191.14 US at current exchange rates), in a scientific essay contest being held by Turkish creationist Harun Yahya (aka Adnan Oktar)

Some helpful tips for anyone who hopes to win the contest:

(1) Remember that Oktar is an Islamist. While it's not necessary to be a Muslim in order to win, naturally you should avoid any statements that blatantly contradict Islam, such as suggesting that the world was created through Jesus Christ. (Which would be shirk -- i.e., the sin of attributing partners or co-deities to Allah.)

(2) Oktar is an Old Earth Creationist (OEC) who believes that the Earth is several billion years old and that life has existed on Earth for hundreds of millions of years. That said, leaving theoretical room in your essay for Young Earth Creationism (YEC) probably won't disqualify you, provided that you steer clear of any direct references to the book of Genesis in the Jewish and Christian Bibles (as per tip #1). But while it's probably safe to mention YEC, you should probably avoid any overt endorsements of YEC, and most of all you should avoid any appearance of preferring YEC over OEC.

(3) Oktar's version of OEC is not only to be distinguished from YEC, but just as emphatically should not be confused with any form of "theistic evolution." While his rejection of "theistic evolution" has a number of different implications, what it means for purposes of winning this essay contest is that Oktar radically rejects all forms of "micro-evolution" within species. A phrase that appears again and again in his Atlas of Creation, with minor variations in wording, is "this fossil just goes to prove that every species has existed without the smallest change for hundreds of millions of years." It cannot be overstated that any language appearing to endorse or accept micro-evolution or changes within species or species diverging from created "kinds" will immediately disqualify your submission from consideration and you can kiss that T£100,000 goodbye, no matter how well-written your essay is and no matter how loudly you denounce "Darwinist materialism."

709 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 10:05:06am

re: #707 amateurpundit

I'm a creationist ...
Since I'm not a scientist, my intellectual demands are modest (in keeping with my modest brain).
1) Create life in a laboratory
2) Demonstrate how life could come into existence without the laboratory.
3) Publish your results.
4) Throw a party.

Based on your challenge, it's quite possible that your beliefs would fit under the umbrella of "theistic evolutionism," which many lizards regard as being entirely distinct from "creationism."

710 jeremy1013  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 10:14:07am

If I understand him correctly:
While the idea that the man is talking about isn't "scientifically proven" (only an intellectual lightweight would use such a phrase), it is a central idea in Modern Western Philosophy. It probably started with Ockham, but it's definitely present by the time you get to Descartes. Locke played around with it a lot in his epistemology, and the distinction between the matter or object and the mind's perception of the object is central to Kant's thought. Ever since Kant, a significant part of the conversation (at least in Continental philosophy) has been about this distinction.
I'm surprised Charles didn't mention this in his original post...him being a rational, scientific creature 'an all.

711 gman  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 10:18:35am

re: #707 amateurpundit

I'm a creationist and a big fan of LGF...although I will admit that I've started feeling a little unwelcome around here. I think science should be taught as science. Period. Teaching that life evolved from the droppings of the Big Bird has no place in science. At the same time, there should be no need to "believe" in evolution, if it's science: science works on the basis of fact and demonstration. Why should I "believe" in evolution? Do I have to "believe" in physics?
Since I'm not a scientist, my intellectual demands are modest (in keeping with my modest brain).
1) Create life in a laboratory
2) Demonstrate how life could come into existence without the laboratory.
3) Publish your results.
4) Throw a party.

Science uses the scientific method to understand the physical world. It tries to explain what it can measure through observation and experimentation. That's why the scientific understanding of the origin of the world will never contain a supernatural (unobservable and untestable) explanation.
Now, that's where religion comes into the picture. One of the key tenets of religion is faith, faith that there is something greater than ourselves that gives meaning to our lives. A danger arises when we try to view the scientific world from a religious viewpoint and the religious world from a scientific viewpoint. We shut our minds off to possibilities and deeper understandings.
I feel like I have grown the most personally when I keep the two separate and respect them for their own merits.

712 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 10:28:59am

[For amateurpundit, here's a re-post of a comment I made on an evolution thread back in August. The point of it is that we need to avoid the completely false dichotomy in which you've got Militantly Atheistic Evolutionists!!! on one side and Young Earth Creationists!!! on the other. Saying that there are only two alternatives when there are at least three (or more) choices is known as the Bifurcation Fallacy, and has been recognized as illogical since the days of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. -- Th.M]

May I recommend to Charles and everyone else a page that I stumbled across some months ago?

Gallup Still Asking the Wrong Questions in Evolution Poll

Here's the money quote from that link:

There are five clearly definable schools of thought in the public on the topic of evolution and creation, each with a distinct perspective.
[...]
1. Atheistic Evolution, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, man evolved over millions of years and God played no part in it.

2. Theistic Evolution, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, man evolved over millions of years and God had a hand in it.

3. Intelligent Design, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the development of species over time are the results of the design of an intelligent agent, which may or may not be God.

4. Old Earth Creationism, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and man was created fully formed by God within the last 50,000 years.

5. Young Earth Creationism, in which God created the universe, the earth, and man in one week 6,000 years ago.

I don't entirely agree with the author's "five-school" scheme -- for example, I think there might be some justification for defining "Deistic Evolution" as a category separate from "Theistic Evolution," which would make for at least six distinct schools of thought.

Also, I'm not sure if his definition of "Intelligent Design" is adequate -- he sees it differing from Theistic Evolution in that ID allegedly makes no claims about the identity of the Designer, while TE assumes that evolution was overseen by God. But in my understanding, ID is also defined by its overt challenge to methodological naturalism, which is why the Catholic Church suspects it of being a "god of the gaps" approach.

Still, kudos to the author for explaining to his fellow Christians that there are more than two alternatives to choose from.

713 quickjustice  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 10:51:05am

I think the page limit should be 100,000 pages to make sure that participants have ample opportunity to cover every conceivable angle, and that the judges will spend the rest of their lives reading it all.

714 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 10:51:41am

re: #712 Throbert McGee

I think there might be some justification for defining "Deistic Evolution" as a category separate from "Theistic Evolution"

And by the way, I would define "Deistic Evolution" as follows:

God brought matter and energy into existence and specified all the physical laws by which matter and energy interact, with the laws of chemistry deriving from these laws of physics, and the laws of biology deriving from the laws of chemistry. Then God pressed the red button that said PUSH HERE FOR BIG BANG and sat back in his hammock with an enormous glass of lemonade for the next 20 billion years, while His physical laws caused life to spontaneously appear and diversify on planets throughout the Universe, without need for Him to "guide" evolution.

One implication of "Deistic Evolution" is that although our life-containing Universe is very much NOT a "mere accident," it's more or less "accidental" from God's point of view that in this particular solar system, life evolved on the third planet from the sun, namely Earth, and not on Venus or Mars.

It's also more or less "accidental" that life on Earth happened to evolve all the way to self-aware intelligence (which is not to say that God had no special interest in such intelligence, but only that He didn't care if it evolved on THIS planet in THIS solar system, so long as it evolved SOMEWHERE).

And it's more or less accidental that the self-aware intelligent creatures here on Earth are basically talking monkeys, rather than "us" being talking dogs or talking sea otters or talking penguins or talking velociraptors. (Perhaps God cherishes self-aware intelligent lifeforms above all other life, but He would cherish "us" just as much if evolution had made us into talking velociraptors rather than talking monkeys.)

Having thus defined "Deistic Evolution," I would say further that the more one is inclined to regard human beings as unique in the created Universe, and the more that one sees God as guiding evolution in order to produce human beings, the more one is a "Theistic Evolutionist" rather than a "Deistic Evolutionist."

But "Deistic Evolutionism" is also sharply distinguished from "Atheistic Evolutionism" in that DE insists on a consciousness behind and beneath and supporting and observing (but not necessarily guiding) the Universe, while "Atheistic Evolutionism" denies the existence of such a consciousness.

715 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 11:11:23am

re: #401 lincolntf

I have to laugh. Judging by the "down-dings", those who claim to support Darwinism didn't get the joke/irony. The bear-to-whale tale is one of several blunders in OOS. Darwin is the one who pointed out it's foolishness.
I don't believe in Creationism, obviously, but I have read the Bible. Some of you who tout Darwinism might want to read a little Darwin.

716 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 11:15:52am

re: #681 Big Dave

With all respect to the great Lizard King: I have treasured this site for so long as a source for information, music, quotes, and great photography. What I don't understand is why you seem to have so much trouble with those of us who have a theistic world view. I am not a "seven days of creation, five-thousand year old earth" creationist. I have no problem with the solar system being 4+ billion years old, the universe 11+ billion, and the big bang and all that. The problem I have is that most of my experience of contemporary sciences says that's it, there's no more. If you cannot see it and quantify it, it has no meaning or value. My daughter took a class in college on psychology, and her professor and text referred to religion as "folk psychology"--there was no room in his understanding of the human mind for a "soul"--there was only electro-chemical responses in the brain. My reading in contemporary biology (limited, admittedly) has revealed the same disregard for other possibilities. This troubles me, because if what we can quantify is all there is, how do we account for our ability to understand, reflect, and be touched by what we experience--i.e. the soul? I took a mind/body class over twenty years ago in college and explored all the theories of cognition, and none could explain what was really doing the thinking, only how that thinking might work in the brain, not what force made sense of it all. If the physical is all there is, if we are only the sum total of our electro-chemical processes, how do we have the ability to even consider that question? What makes sense of the data?
From this point, there is also the ethical question: If we are only the sum of our electro-chemical processes per mutated through random chance in a universe governed by the same, of what value is my life compared to a rock, or tree, or anything? If I have the power, why should I regard your life as valuable at all if it prevents me from living better? If there is no force in the universe beyond ourselves that we must regard or answer to, why have any moral considerations at all?
In one of the Narnia stories, there is a character called Puddleglum who considers what a world would be like without any such considerations, and he decides that if there were no "god" then such a place would be a very terrifying place to live. If love has only a biological function, respect and loyalty only a function of survival, and "the better angels of our nature" are only creations for social control, then what was evil about Hitler, Stain, Pol Pot, etc.?
Evolution deals quite well with the how, but in its modern iteration, it does not even recognize that there is a why, and that bit of myopia can easily allow us to stumble down a path to a place we do not want to go.

To grasp how conscious self-awareness is an emergent property of the complexity coefficient of the human brain, read I Am A Strange Loop by Dougles R. Hofstadter, the author of Godel, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid.

To be born into a predestined meaning for our lives would be to be born into teleological slavery. Instead, we each get to creat our OWN life meaning - and that is a GOOD thing.

Ethics may be derived existentially, from the necessity of optimizing a situation where the most of us possible can live as free and prosperous as possible in a finite world with limitied space and resources which we must share between us. Much good work has been done on drawing ethical considerations from our present scientific understanding; here is where you may read of some of it:

[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

And no, Steven Pinker's no moonbat:

[Link: westernstandard.blogs.com...]

717 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 11:18:29am

re: #681 Big Dave

Evolution deals quite well with the how, but in its modern iteration, it does not even recognize that there is a why, and that bit of myopia can easily allow us to stumble down a path to a place we do not want to go.

I decided to give Big Dave an upding, even though I know that he's totally incorrect to confuse "evolution" with "metaphysical naturalism" [The fancy technical way of saying "we live in an atheistic universe" -- Ed.] because I thought that his objections to metaphysical naturalism are valid.

And I can say with some confidence that Charles downdinged you, Dave, only because you seem to think that saying "evolution is true" is the same thing as saying "we live in an atheistic universe." He did not downding you because you objected to the idea of an atheistic universe. I also know for certain that Sharmuta (for example) rejects the "atheistic universe" premise, and would agree with many of your objections to metaphysical naturalism -- yet she downdinged you. Again, because of your suggestion that accepting evolution (as Sharmuta does) amounts to the same thing as believing that we live in a godless universe (which Sharmuta does not).

718 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 11:20:25am

re: #684 Jimmah

Dawkins may have a regrettable tendency to throw the odd hissy fit, but that video was pathetic. Is it from "Expelled" or something?

Anti-intellectualism is the last refuge of the arrogantly ignorant.

719 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 11:29:31am

re: #685 Dasher

For those concerned about intelligent design, being taught in schools with or without evolution...

I am more concerned about Anthropogenic Global Warming being taught. Is there a difference between ID, and AGW. Both are religious in nature, requiring faith. ID causes no real harm to anyone, while belief in AGW can cause great economic harm the economies of many nations, through taxation. And lets face it, that is what AGW is about increasing taxes, and decreasing standards of living to allow socialism to become the world economic system.

Wrong on both counts. AGW is bad science, but it is science nevertheless; that is, it can be empirically tested, and found wanting. That's why scientists are fleeing it in droves when the evidence is found to contradict it. It actually hasn't taken very long to discredit and debunk. ID, OTOH, is pure, untestable sectarian faith-embraced religious dogma, and as such does not belong in public high school science class.

And hamstringing the science education of America's youth in the biosciences would have dire consequences for our country's future prospects, both economically and geopolitically.

720 jeremy1013  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 11:50:38am

re: #715 Lincolntf

The debate is no longer about dogma we can agree about based on Darwin's ideas. We've shifted from an age of dogma to the poetry of prejudice (some time ago). Both sides have people who commit the same sin mistake, and most are ill equipped to really have a substantive discussion on the topic. Think of all the fossils walking around today who think "science" is some kind of magisterium for our secular age.

721 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 12:03:59pm

re: #720 jeremy1013

The debate is no longer about dogma we can agree about based on Darwin's ideas. We've shifted from an age of dogma to the poetry of prejudice (some time ago). Both sides have people who commit the same sin mistake, and most are ill equipped to really have a substantive discussion on the topic. Think of all the fossils walking around today who think "science" is some kind of magisterium for our secular age.

Typical. When religious believers cannot elevate their doctrinal dogmas to the status of scientific assertions, they attempt to reduce empirical science to the level of religious faith. But they fail in either case, because the essential and definitional difference - the presence or absence of empirical evidence for the respective contentions - remains.

722 Yashmak  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 12:27:26pm

re: #721 Salamantis
At least you could understand what he was trying to say, Sal. . . he threw in everything from sin, to what I think is a reference to the movie "The Golden Compass". . .I knew it was supposed to mean something, but I couldn't even tell which side he was arguing from. .much less what point he was trying to make.

"poetry of predjudice" ?!? lol

723 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 12:47:05pm
Ethics may be derived existentially, from the necessity of optimizing a situation where the most of us possible can live as free and prosperous as possible in a finite world with limitied space and resources which we must share between us.

Note that this is one way to resolve the Euthyphro Dilemma without getting impaled on the horn of "good is good and evil is evil because God said so" or the opposite horn of "if there's no God to define good and evil for us, then the words have no meaning at all and morality is totally subjective."

724 jeremy1013  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 12:47:15pm

re: #721 Salamantis
Your use of the terms "reduce" and "elevate" seem to suggest that you have a hierarchy of epistemology. That is, you assume that one kind of *knowledge* is superior to another. The first point is that there is no scientific evidence for establishing such an epistemology. I can imagine a physicist waving one of his physics papers in the face of Socrates as a way of arguing that Platonic Forms don't exist.

You used the phrase "the presence or absence of empirical evidence" as the essential difference. No shit. The second point is that the whole nature of the debate is essentially what constitutes evidence, and the question of what constitutes evidence is a lot broader than science can address. Both sides have their arguments, and each side has folks who look across the gap and confidently declare, "They have no evidence for their claims."

725 jeremy1013  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 12:50:15pm

re: #722 Yashmak

Sorry about that. The prejudice/dogma distinction is explained in an essay written by GK Chesterton in a book called, "What's Wrong With the World." Good essay by the way, even for those who do not consider themselves religious. I think it's called, "The New Hypocrite."

726 Yashmak  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:02:23pm

re: #724 jeremy1013


You used the phrase "the presence or absence of empirical evidence" as the essential difference. No shit. The second point is that the whole nature of the debate is essentially what constitutes evidence, and the question of what constitutes evidence is a lot broader than science can address.

I think you're wrong on that point. There's no real argument over what constitutes empirical evidence. The definition is pretty cut-and-dry, and it is only empirical evidence that science is concerned with.

727 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:28:20pm

re: #724 jeremy1013

Your use of the terms "reduce" and "elevate" seem to suggest that you have a hierarchy of epistemology. That is, you assume that one kind of *knowledge* is superior to another. The first point is that there is no scientific evidence for establishing such an epistemology. I can imagine a physicist waving one of his physics papers in the face of Socrates as a way of arguing that Platonic Forms don't exist.

There is only one kind of knowledge; that which is supported by empirical evidence. Belief may pretend to be another kind of knowledge, but in the absence of empirical evidence, it is a failed pretense. There are both logical and empirical reasons for considering assertion supported by empirical evidence to be superior to contentions for which no such empiricalevidence exists. And the only place that types such as Platonic forms exist is in the mind - and they are abstracted there from a number of imperfect tokens in the phenomenal world. Just like the types 'dog' or 'circle' are conceptually abstracted from different actual dogs and different more or less circular things.

You used the phrase "the presence or absence of empirical evidence" as the essential difference. No shit. The second point is that the whole nature of the debate is essentially what constitutes evidence, and the question of what constitutes evidence is a lot broader than science can address. Both sides have their arguments, and each side has folks who look across the gap and confidently declare, "They have no evidence for their claims."

Nope. Empirical evidence is that which can be observed and repeated under controlled conditions - kinda like finding identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, in isomorphic positions in human and great ape genomes, every time we look, or Lenski being able at will to reproduce in the laboratory the evolution of e. coli into an organism that can metabolize citric acid - something that e. coli typically cannot do.

728 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:36:05pm

re: #720 jeremy1013

Sadly, I think you're right. If the kind of belittling of Creationists that I see online these days were aimed at any other specific Religious belief, it would be banned as hate-speech.
I say to the "anti-'s", get over it. If you don't agree with the tenets of the faith of other people, that doesn't mean that those people are unworthy or basic respect.
I find it amazing (and disconcerting) how often I see people who claim to be representing the "rational" view of natural selection/evolution who have no clue what they're talking about. Rabid anti-Creationism is a bizarre little pocket dogma that ultimately hinders a rational education.

That said, I don't want anyone teaching Creationism as Science in any schools. I'm as convinced of the fact of "evolution" as I am of the fact of gravity. I'll willingly debate the properties of both with no personal animus, but when someone tries to convince me that billions of years worth of natural history simply didn't occur, then I tend to tune them out.

729 Scorch  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:37:01pm

re: #666 legalpad

A friend of mine owns one and he says the Beretta Xtrema 2 using the 2 3/4 inch shells is like firing a 410. He also says the 3 1/2 inch shells are very tolerable when firing them.

730 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:38:15pm

My last post was a grammatical mess. Sorry.

731 Scorch  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:40:16pm

Of course I have never owned a shotgun capable of chambering a 3 1/2 inch shell so I'm just taking his word for it.

732 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:41:02pm

re: #725 jeremy1013

Sorry about that. The prejudice/dogma distinction is explained in an essay written by GK Chesterton in a book called, "What's Wrong With the World." Good essay by the way, even for those who do not consider themselves religious. I think it's called, "The New Hypocrite."

To quote 'The New Hypocrite':

As an instance to sharpen the argument, I take the one case
of our everlasting education bills. We have actually contrived
to invent a new kind of hypocrite. The old hypocrite,
Tartuffe or Pecksniff, was a man whose aims were really worldly
and practical, while he pretended that they were religious.
The new hypocrite is one whose aims are really religious,
while he pretends that they are worldly and practical.
The Rev. Brown, the Wesleyan minister, sturdily declares
that he cares nothing for creeds, but only for education;
meanwhile, in truth, the wildest Wesleyanism is tearing his soul.
The Rev. Smith, of the Church of England, explains gracefully,
with the Oxford manner, that the only question for him is
the prosperity and efficiency of the schools; while in truth
all the evil passions of a curate are roaring within him.
It is a fight of creeds masquerading as policies.
I think these reverend gentlemen do themselves wrong; I think
they are more pious than they will admit. Theology is not
(as some suppose) expunged as an error. It is merely concealed,
like a sin. Dr. Clifford really wants a theological atmosphere
as much as Lord Halifax; only it is a different one.
If Dr. Clifford would ask plainly for Puritanism and Lord Halifax
ask plainly for Catholicism, something might be done for them.
We are all, one hopes, imaginative enough to recognize the dignity
and distinctness of another religion, like Islam or the cult
of Apollo. I am quite ready to respect another man's faith;
but it is too much to ask that I should respect his doubt,
his worldly hesitations and fictions, his political bargain
and make-believe. Most Nonconformists with an instinct for
English history could see something poetic and national about
the Archbishop of Canterbury as an Archbishop of Canterbury. It is
when he does the rational British statesman that they very
justifiably get annoyed. Most Anglicans with an eye for pluck
and simplicity could admire Dr. Clifford as a Baptist minister.
It is when he says that he is simply a citizen that nobody can
possibly believe him.

Sal: Hmmmm...the new hypocrite is one whose aims are really religious,
while he pretends that they are worldly and practical. Sounds like the IDers to me.

733 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:46:52pm

re: #728 Lincolntf

Sadly, I think you're right. If the kind of belittling of Creationists that I see online these days were aimed at any other specific Religious belief, it would be banned as hate-speech.
I say to the "anti-'s", get over it. If you don't agree with the tenets of the faith of other people, that doesn't mean that those people are unworthy or basic respect.
I find it amazing (and disconcerting) how often I see people who claim to be representing the "rational" view of natural selection/evolution who have no clue what they're talking about. Rabid anti-Creationism is a bizarre little pocket dogma that ultimately hinders a rational education.

That said, I don't want anyone teaching Creationism as Science in any schools. I'm as convinced of the fact of "evolution" as I am of the fact of gravity. I'll willingly debate the properties of both with no personal animus, but when someone tries to convince me that billions of years worth of natural history simply didn't occur, then I tend to tune them out.

People have the right to believe empirically false things in America, but they should not expect respect for provably fallacious positions just because they cloak them in religious garb. People are worthy of respect simply because they are people; false ideas do not, however, get to have respect for the people who hold them magically osmoted into respect for the false ideas themselves. And they most certainly should not be permitted to indoctrinate the naive and impressionable young minds of other unwilling peoples' children in their pet sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science classes.

734 Charles  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:47:39pm

re: #728 Lincolntf

Sadly, I think you're right. If the kind of belittling of Creationists that I see online these days were aimed at any other specific Religious belief, it would be banned as hate-speech.

You wish.

I say to the "anti-'s", get over it. If you don't agree with the tenets of the faith of other people, that doesn't mean that those people are unworthy or basic respect.

People have free choice, and I respect their choice, even if it's to believe in pseudo-scientific hooey. I do not respect the pseudo-scientific hooey itself, though, and if you expect that kind of respect you're at the wrong website.

Rabid anti-Creationism is a bizarre little pocket dogma that ultimately hinders a rational education.

Wow. That is such a backward way of looking at the situation it makes my head hurt.

Being opposed to creationism hinders a rational education. Now I've heard everything.

735 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:56:20pm

re: #734 Charles

I don't intellectually "respect" any of the Hindu or Native American Creation myths, but I respect Hindus and Native Americans.
I know this is one of your main topics of interest, and I actually agree with your position on it, but c'mon, you don't see the "Creationists" becoming sort of a whipping-boy?
I appreciate being here and I'm not trying to be a prick when I disagree with some of the posters, but the vitriol reserved for Creationists (who I think are very few in number) is kinda silly.

736 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 1:57:58pm

re: #715 Lincolntf

I have to laugh. Judging by the "down-dings", those who claim to support Darwinism didn't get the joke/irony. The bear-to-whale tale is one of several blunders in OOS. Darwin is the one who pointed out it's foolishness.
I don't believe in Creationism, obviously, but I have read the Bible. Some of you who tout Darwinism might want to read a little Darwin.

Even Hegel had a shameful passage where he endorsed phrenology. But that does not render the dialectical movement of the simultaneous prservation and subsumption of theses and antitheses into special cases of more general syntheses any more false than do Darwin's specific mistakes falsify the general theory of evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection. You might as well try to discredit Einsteinian relativity and the mass-energy conversion equation by pointing out that he was wrong about the renormalization coefficient, heisenbergian uncertainty, and quantum mechanical indeterminacy.

737 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 2:02:33pm

re: #735 Lincolntf

I don't intellectually "respect" any of the Hindu or Native American Creation myths, but I respect Hindus and Native Americans.
I know this is one of your main topics of interest, and I actually agree with your position on it, but c'mon, you don't see the "Creationists" becoming sort of a whipping-boy?
I appreciate being here and I'm not trying to be a prick when I disagree with some of the posters, but the vitriol reserved for Creationists (who I think are very few in number) is kinda silly.

I respect creationists as people, but do not respect their claims that creationism is anything more than a religious dogma that they embrace. Most of them, otoh, have demonstrated no compunction about illegitimately equating the acceptance of evolution as valid, solid and sound empirical science with atheistic godlessness, Stalinistic communism, fascistic nazism, and terminal ethical relativism.

738 ladycatnip  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 2:32:44pm
We do have some LGF readers who are creationists...

I've got a pretty thick skin so I take no offense at the term coming across as an epithet. I personally believe God created the earth and everything in it, and am always amazed at its beauty and splendor; if He used evolution to make this come about - great. The creation debate has become a polarizing dogmatic distraction in today's discourse rather than addressing the really important issues we all face - it certainly shouldn't be the burning question of this century.

I also believe you can be someone who loves science, respects the process of evolution, and yet still chooses to believe God created the universe. Believing this should not label me an anti-intellectual nor should it marginalize me. Belief in creation is a matter of faith that should come from the pulpits and be taught in the home - not be in textbooks or forced upon the general population.

739 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 2:40:01pm

You'll find that in every Religion, there are multiple gradients of belief/understanding. Some adherents of any faith will miss the larger message and cling to the written message. It doesn't make them bad people, it doesn't mean they want to take over your country, it doesn't mean that they are ignorant or evil. It means that they are people.
My main beef (in the current political context) with the anti-Creationists is that they use the Creationists to shoulder all of the blame. I'm pretty darn sure that no State was lost in the last election because of Creationism. The Creationists are the low-hanging fruit (for those of us who somehow didn't convince enough people to vote Republican) to grab at, rather than address our own real failings.
In the context of Science, Creationism has already been thoroughly outpaced. In the context of Conservatism it's gaining new traction by the vilification of it's adherents. That vilification comes from both the Right and the Left. That's all I'm saying.

740 jeremy1013  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:03:29pm

Salamatis, you need to read a bit more Chesterton before you decide you agree with any statement he makes. If you're not careful, he will f*ck in the ass every time. I suggest his book Orthodoxy. You'll be surprised.

Respect, respect, respect....kumbayah, my friends: The issue of whether or not Creationism (or Darwinism) should be taught in publick skools is a local issue. I don't care if B Hussein Obama or Jerry Falwell (scary thought) is president. (Sarcastic tone) Hands off my kid's curriculum you eastern seaboard, statist pigs. Go to Europe where you are actually wanted.

I will ignore Salamatis' definition of empirical evidence, as it doesn't even stand up under his own critiques, and address this comment

There's no real argument over what constitutes empirical evidence. The definition is pretty cut-and-dry, and it is only empirical evidence that science is concerned with.


by Yashmak. I appreciate your honesty Yashmak, but the entire conversation of Modern Philosophy from Ockham to Foucault proves that it is not cut and dry. I have 500-600 years of philosophy on my side.

But who really cares? What would anyone be giving up, if they conceded that ultimately what you think science is ontologically, teleologically, practically, and essentially goes back to some theological questions that were "bracketed" before the conversation even began? Epistemology, which is deeply tied to science (though it captures only a part of it) requires something that is not repeatable, verifiable, or confirmed by the senses. Until one concedes that, one is not being honest.

741 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:10:24pm

re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

If anyone enters, make duplicates, and submit the Topkapi here.

I just saw this. Groan.

P.S. I done been there when I were a wee lad!

P.P.S. For anyone's pedantic interest: In the Turkish alphabet, it's spelled "Topkapı" -- that is, with an undotted "i." The dotless "ı" in Turkish sounds VERY approximately like the English vowel in "pill," while the dotted Turkish "i" is almost but not quite identical to the English vowel in "peel."

So the actual Turkish pronunciation of "Topkapı" is not as a homonym for "top copy," but something more like "top-" as in "topiary," "-ka-" as in "karate," and "-pi" as in "pill."

P.P.P.S. Pedantry aside, it was a brilliant pun!

P.P.P.P.S. For anyone who knows a bit about Russian pronunciation, the dotless Turkish ı is almost but not quite identical to the Russian ы. The Turkish fındık (which we call "hazelnuts" or "filberts") would be spelled фындык, for example, and not финдик.

742 palarson  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:14:20pm

The theories of evolution, and the big bang theory if you like, are dead.

The reason I like the most for this fact is that neither of them provided testable, verifiable propositions that provide measurable real world benefit (except, or course, to that class of "educators" who make a living spreading the theories).

Now if everyone would just get over it.

743 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:25:36pm

re: #740 jeremy1013

Salamatis, you need to read a bit more Chesterton before you decide you agree with any statement he makes. If you're not careful, he will f*ck in the ass every time. I suggest his book Orthodoxy. You'll be surprised.

I quoted a full lengthy paragraph from the essay you mentioned; no one can credibly claim that it is out of context.

Respect, respect, respect....kumbayah, my friends: The issue of whether or not Creationism (or Darwinism) should be taught in publick skools is a local issue. I don't care if B Hussein Obama or Jerry Falwell (scary thought) is president. (Sarcastic tone) Hands off my kid's curriculum you eastern seaboard, statist pigs. Go to Europe where you are actually wanted.

Wrong. There is such a thing as the 1st Amendment to the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution. Allowing sectarion religious dogmas to be illegitimately shoehorned into public high school science classes is a clear Constitutional violation - as US courts have repeatedly held.

I will ignore Salamatis' definition of empirical evidence, as it doesn't even stand up under his own critiques,

A bare assertion is no substitute at all for proof of such a contention. You claim, but do not substantiate. I don't think you can. And I think that's why you constrained yourself to a gratuitous and unsubstantiated ad hominem dissing.

and address this comment

There's no real argument over what constitutes empirical evidence. The definition is pretty cut-and-dry, and it is only empirical evidence that science is concerned with.

by Yashmak. I appreciate your honesty Yashmak, but the entire conversation of Modern Philosophy from Ockham to Foucault proves that it is not cut and dry. I have 500-600 years of philosophy on my side.

Yashmak has Karl Popper, the most significant scientific epistemologist of the 20th century, on his side. In response, you offer up the same kind of postmodern pablum that Sokal deservedly lampooned.

But who really cares? What would anyone be giving up, if they conceded that ultimately what you think science is ontologically, teleologically, practically, and essentially goes back to some theological questions that were "bracketed" before the conversation even began? Epistemology, which is deeply tied to science (though it captures only a part of it) requires something that is not repeatable, verifiable, or confirmed by the senses. Until one concedes that, one is not being honest.

Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. Its principles are drawn from the empirical world, and recurse to inform them. In the absence of objects in the phenomenal world that one may investigate for the purpose of gleaning knowledge of them, there would BE NO such field as epistemology. And the only way to glean knowledge of worldly objects is to empirically and repeatedly investigate and experiment upon them, and, by means of sensuous confirmation or disconfirmation, to verify or falsify particular characteristics. Theology and epistemology are nonrelational fields, since religious dogmas cannot be empirically tested; they cannot be either verified or falsified. Thus they cannot be legitimately assigned any determinate truth value - that is, they cannot be known to be either true or false on the basis of any empirical evidence - and must remain either believed in or not, that is, in the realm of belief, which is the theological realm, rather than the realm of knowledge, which is the epistemological realm.

744 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:26:11pm

re: #742 palarson

True.
When you get down to the nub of "all things came from no things", you enter the realm of magical thinking, whether Science or Religion is your guide.
But, the basic geological/natural history of our humble little planet has been proven to my satisfaction.

745 Throbert McGee  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:31:19pm

re: #317 rawmuse

The thing about southern cooking is that you take something which is already a finished, complete food product, like Ritz Crackers, and it becomes an ingredient.

"Ah told you, Lurleene, you can NOT make guacamole [pronounced to rhyme with "Whack-A-Mole" --Ed. ] from lima beans an' Ritz crackers!"
-- Peggy Hill, as voiced by Kathy Najimy on King of the Hill

746 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:31:46pm

re: #742 palarson

The theories of evolution, and the big bang theory if you like, are dead.

The reason I like the most for this fact is that neither of them provided testable, verifiable propositions that provide measurable real world benefit (except, or course, to that class of "educators" who make a living spreading the theories).

Now if everyone would just get over it.

Lenski's e. coli and artifactual retroviral DNA sequences and DNA generally and the fossil record and radiometric dating and the detection of red-shifted Big bang echo radiation and a century and a half of empirical evidence derived from meticulous and painstaking scientific investigation and experimentation all belie your false, absurd, and nonsensical assertions. And you present no credible alternatives. Nor do you present any empirical evidence either contradicting evolution or Big Bang theory, or supporting any alternatives. Nor do you have any.

747 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:34:03pm

re: #744 Lincolntf

True.
When you get down to the nub of "all things came from no things", you enter the realm of magical thinking, whether Science or Religion is your guide.
But, the basic geological/natural history of our humble little planet has been proven to my satisfaction.

Since it has already been proven that all matter and energy are quantum fluctuations, what's so hard about comprehending that their genesis in the Big Bang was itself a quantum fluctuation as well?

748 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:45:31pm

re: #739 Lincolntf

You'll find that in every Religion, there are multiple gradients of belief/understanding. Some adherents of any faith will miss the larger message and cling to the written message. It doesn't make them bad people, it doesn't mean they want to take over your country, it doesn't mean that they are ignorant or evil. It means that they are people.
My main beef (in the current political context) with the anti-Creationists is that they use the Creationists to shoulder all of the blame. I'm pretty darn sure that no State was lost in the last election because of Creationism. The Creationists are the low-hanging fruit (for those of us who somehow didn't convince enough people to vote Republican) to grab at, rather than address our own real failings.
In the context of Science, Creationism has already been thoroughly outpaced. In the context of Conservatism it's gaining new traction by the vilification of it's adherents. That vilification comes from both the Right and the Left. That's all I'm saying.

The American electorate are not going to elect any presidential candidate who publicly embraces and proclaims adherence to the hardline socon agenda of banning all abortions, closeting all gays, and mandating the illegitimate foisting upon the naive and impressionable minds of other unwilling peoples' childen of sectarian religious dogma in public high school science classes.

The socons' intransigent insistence that all presidential candidates that they will support must pay obesiance to these positions will doom the Republican Party to the electoral wilderness for the foreseeable future, unless and until either the socons learn the art of political compromise for the sake of attracting sufficient moderate and independent voters to achieve electoral victory, or, failing that, until the Republican party tires of political defeat and grows the prerequisite cojones to jettison such political millstones as the electoral albatrosses that they are.

749 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:45:59pm

re: #747 Salamantis

First off, I could list a zillion things that have been "proven" only to be dis-proven.

Second, I'm aware that quantum fluctuations exist, but WHY do they exist? Is there any Scientific rationale for any existence anywhere in the Universe? Nothing (not a particle, not a wave, not one single delicious jelly doughnut) should have ever existed, anywhere, at any time, if there were no initial impetus. The initial impetus is the great mystery.

Why matter? Why energy? Why did they come into existence? If the answer is "they've always existed", then you've breached the bounds of Science and ended up in Faithtown, USA.

Again, I don't believe in Creationism (except as an acceptable Religious belief among people seeking to understand that which is un-understandable) but going back to basic physics stills begs the question as to where those laws of physics came from.

750 Big Dave  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:52:40pm

re: #717 Throbert McGee
Okay, first of all, let me say thank you for explaining the whole "upding, downding" thing. I feel like Rip van Winkle every time I try to do something new, and jumping into a stream of discussion like this and not knowing where it has been before is a little like jumping into white water in the dark.
I am a pastor in the United Methodist Church, an evangelical protestant, and an amateur historian, so my apologies for my long-windedness. Simply put, as a pastor I see clinical, observable evidence for the existence of God on an almost daily basis. I see the effect that someone's faith has how they handle their life at an intimate level--through cancer, the death of a child or spouse, divorce, etc. I believe that the "Word became flesh and dwelt among us" so I do not reject what I see in Hinduism as the reconnecting of mind-body, spiritual-physical and consequently reject the idea of an atheistic universe. Again, its the idea of practice and application: I can treat an untouchable as untouchable. In an atheistic universe, where is consciousness? Take the argument that what is true is what is observable out a little further. Who is observing the you which is sitting at a keyboard considering the ramblings of a middle aged white man? The computer is not thinking, nor is the network of electronic switches you are connected to, so what force of intellect is observing this endless droning and considering and formulating a response (or not)? If we can observe this, which I argue you are doing right now, yet science cannot quantify it beyond occurring in a certain part of the brain, does that mean our soul does not exist?
And again, what about ethics? If this is all there is, who says we can't kill the Jews/Kulaks/homos/intellectuals/Christians/atheist s if their reality conflicts with our own? If all we are is neurons and DNA and random chance, then that's all anyone is, so why treat them as special and unique, or why regard ourselves that way?
Frankie say: "...is it all just electro-chemical responses, or is one having an orgasm?"

751 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 3:53:18pm

re: #748 Salamantis

We (not me, I was yet to be born) elected JFK, and he would have sworn that he was consuming a veritable McNugget made from the body of Christ every Sunday. The current (and web-centric) emphasis on Religious beliefs denies 200 years of American history of electing Presidents despite their Religious factions.
Creationism is a dead-end street, and nobody who campaigns on such a notion will ever make it anywhere nationally.

752 biosaari  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:00:42pm

Dear Harun Yahya:

Please find enclosed my essay on why evolution is wrong. In summary, it is basically a critique of science, using standard post-modern philosophy. Because we all have our own metanarratives, all of them are equally valid within our own sphere, and all should be respected equally, regardless of their comparison to some mythical objective truth. Thus science, with it's modernist presuppositions dependent on a concrete reality and a search for the truth, must be completely rejected. There can be no valid scientific pursuit, nor any valid gain from science, for it runs directly contrary to the postmodern religious synthesis that has only one dogma: all beliefs are equal, regardless of such silly perceptions as evidence and the scientific method. Let us move out of our dark age of scientific inquiry, and into the brave new world of whatever beliefs work best for each person.

753 Dartmouth  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:07:24pm

re: #48 Charles

Hey, I'm serious! Here's your chance to win a fair amount of money just for writing something about a subject you believe in! Sheesh. Try to be nice and see what I get.

Hell, I'd write on just about anything for that kind of cash..

754 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:13:50pm

re: #749 Lincolntf

755 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:22:38pm

re: #750 Big Dave

Okay, first of all, let me say thank you for explaining the whole "upding, downding" thing. I feel like Rip van Winkle every time I try to do something new, and jumping into a stream of discussion like this and not knowing where it has been before is a little like jumping into white water in the dark.
I am a pastor in the United Methodist Church, an evangelical protestant, and an amateur historian, so my apologies for my long-windedness. Simply put, as a pastor I see clinical, observable evidence for the existence of God on an almost daily basis. I see the effect that someone's faith has how they handle their life at an intimate level--through cancer, the death of a child or spouse, divorce, etc. I believe that the "Word became flesh and dwelt among us" so I do not reject what I see in Hinduism as the reconnecting of mind-body, spiritual-physical and consequently reject the idea of an atheistic universe. Again, its the idea of practice and application: I can treat an untouchable as untouchable. In an atheistic universe, where is consciousness? Take the argument that what is true is what is observable out a little further. Who is observing the you which is sitting at a keyboard considering the ramblings of a middle aged white man? The computer is not thinking, nor is the network of electronic switches you are connected to, so what force of intellect is observing this endless droning and considering and formulating a response (or not)? If we can observe this, which I argue you are doing right now, yet science cannot quantify it beyond occurring in a certain part of the brain, does that mean our soul does not exist?
And again, what about ethics? If this is all there is, who says we can't kill the Jews/Kulaks/homos/intellectuals/Christia ns/atheists if their reality conflicts with our own? If all we are is neurons and DNA and random chance, then that's all anyone is, so why treat them as special and unique, or why regard ourselves that way?
Frankie say: "...is it all just electro-chemical responses, or is one having an orgasm?"

Regardless of whether deity does or does not exist, self-conscious awareness is an evolutionarily emergent phenomenon resulting from the Godelian-threshhold-breaching structural and functional complexity of the human brain's billions of neurons multiplied by the number and complexity of the synaptic and axonal connections between them.

As to ethics, I have already stated that it is a pragmatic consequent of the necessity of optimizing a ground situation where the most of us possible can live as free and prosperous as possible in a finite world with limitied space and resources which we must share between us. Much good work has been done on drawing ethical considerations from our present scientific understanding; here is where you may read of some of it:

[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

And no, Steven Pinker's no moonbat:

[Link: westernstandard.blogs.com...]

756 Charles  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:45:24pm

re: #742 palarson

The theories of evolution, and the big bang theory if you like, are dead.

That's one of my favorite things that creationists do -- grandly announce that the debate is over, and science lost. Like we're supposed to drop everything and go, "All righty then! From this day forward, I am a creationist, because palarson said evolution is dead and he oughtta know!"

757 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:46:44pm

re: #749 Lincolntf

First off, I could list a zillion things that have been "proven" only to be dis-proven.

You were correct to place the word "proven" in quotation marks, as no contention in empirical science can ever be absolutely proven true with apodictic certainty, on epistemological principle, since that would foreclose the possibility that subsequent empirical evidence could impact an existent theory in the future. However, empirical assertions can be absolutely proven to be false, via the presentation of counterfaxctual empirical evidence. One black swan forever falsifies the empirical statement that all swans are white, while no number of white swans could ever absolutely prove it to be true. However, the vast and massive tsunami of empirical evidence in support of evolutionary theory, and the abject lack of counterfactual evidence, over the course of a century and a half, is so overwhelming that the theory of evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection is as verified as any theory in science, and its statistical probability of being true apodictically approaches, although it in principle cannot attain, absolute certainty. And I note that evolution itself- THAT it happens - is an observable fact, since species have undeniably changed over time; HOW it happens is a massively empirically supported theory.

Second, I'm aware that quantum fluctuations exist, but WHY do they exist? Is there any Scientific rationale for any existence anywhere in the Universe? Nothing (not a particle, not a wave, not one single delicious jelly doughnut) should have ever existed, anywhere, at any time, if there were no initial impetus. The initial impetus is the great mystery.

This universal demand for a cause or an impetus or a why for everything is one of the most pernicious delusions of the human mind. Randomness requires no reason or cause; matter-antimatter pairs pop into and out of existence randomly and routinely without any rhyme or reason whatsoever. The answer to every "Why?" question need not always be "Because..."; sometimes,the answer is "Why Not?", to which there is also no answer.

Why matter? Why energy? Why did they come into existence? If the answer is "they've always existed", then you've breached the bounds of Science and ended up in Faithtown, USA.

They have not always been around; they date from 13.7 million years ago, when the Big Bang boomed. As to the "Why?" question, see my previous response in this post, e.g., in a random happening, "Why Not?"

Again, I don't believe in Creationism (except as an acceptable Religious belief among people seeking to understand that which is un-understandable) but going back to basic physics stills begs the question as to where those laws of physics came from.

This is another pernicious delusion; the idea that the Universal laws and constants must of necessity depend upon something external to them (as if there COULD be something external to or existeing before the Universe, which is, by definition, All That Was, Is, and Will Be). Rather, it is most likely the case that the Universal laws and constants comprise a co-primordial and reciprocally determining system; in other words that each one is the way that it is and not some other way because all of the others are the ways that they are and not some other ways. Changes in any of them would require changes in them all, just like the alteration of a single electronic component alters the resonance of the entire system, and we are simply very lucky that our existing ensemble allows for the evolution of life and self-conscious awareness. But then again, there wouldn't even be a 'we' to view it and consider our great good fortune had it happened otherwise.

758 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 4:54:31pm

re: #752 biosaari

Dear Harun Yahya:

Please find enclosed my essay on why evolution is wrong. In summary, it is basically a critique of science, using standard post-modern philosophy. Because we all have our own metanarratives, all of them are equally valid within our own sphere, and all should be respected equally, regardless of their comparison to some mythical objective truth. Thus science, with it's modernist presuppositions dependent on a concrete reality and a search for the truth, must be completely rejected. There can be no valid scientific pursuit, nor any valid gain from science, for it runs directly contrary to the postmodern religious synthesis that has only one dogma: all beliefs are equal, regardless of such silly perceptions as evidence and the scientific method. Let us move out of our dark age of scientific inquiry, and into the brave new world of whatever beliefs work best for each person.

You forgot your sarc tag...;~)

This reminds me of JZ Knight of Ramtha fame who kept insisting that everyone had their own truth. But although people are entitled to their own opinions, they are NOT entitled to their own facts, as there may be many perspectives upon the world, but all of these perspectives are upon the selfsame world, and must noncontradictorally blend within it. The great French phenomenologist Maurice Merleau-Ponty said it best:

"If a friend and I are standing before a landscape, and if I attempt to show my friend something which I see and which he does not yet see, we cannot account for the situation by saying that I see something in my own world and that I attempt, by sending verbal messages, to give rise to an analogous perception in the world of my friend. There are not two numerically distinct worlds plus a mediating language which alone would bring us together. There is - and I know it very well if I become impatient with him - a kind of demand that what I see be seen by him also. And at the same time this communication is required by the very thing which I am looking at, by the reflection of sunlight upon it, by its color, by its sensible evidence. The thing imposes itself not as true for every intellect, but as real for every subject who is standing where I am."

759 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 5:31:30pm

re: #738 ladycatnip

cre⋅a⋅tion⋅ism
–noun
1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, esp. in the first chapter of Genesis.

760 jeremy1013  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:16:35pm

Salamantis, your definition doesn't stand up under your own critiques because it is self-defeating. There is no empirical evidence (repeatable, verifiable, and confirmed by the senses) for the claim that only that which is repeatable, verafiable, and confirmed by the senses qualifies as *knowledge*, and furthermore, that one *ought* to adopt such a view of knowledge.
You also said,

Allowing sectarion religious dogmas to be illegitimately shoehorned into public high school science classes is a clear Constitutional violation - as US courts have repeatedly held.


I'm not sure which absurdity you are positing: a) that the US courts are the final authority on what the Constitution says, and therefore cannot be wrong or b) that the writers of the First Amendment believed that the federal Constitution should be used to shape the way states set up their schools and educated their children. Let me know.

Yashmak has Karl Popper, the most significant scientific epistemologist of the 20th century, on his side. In response, you offer up the same kind of postmodern pablum that Sokal deservedly lampooned.

Postmodern!?!? Careful, sloppy language yields sloppy thinking.

Salamatis (ex cathedra):

Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. Its principles are drawn from the empirical world, and recurse to inform them. In the absence of objects in the phenomenal world that one may investigate for the purpose of gleaning knowledge of them, there would BE NO such field as epistemology. And the only way to glean knowledge of worldly objects is to empirically and repeatedly investigate and experiment upon them, and, by means of sensuous confirmation or disconfirmation, to verify or falsify particular characteristics. Theology and epistemology are nonrelational fields, since religious dogmas cannot be empirically tested; they cannot be either verified or falsified. Thus they cannot be legitimately assigned any determinate truth value - that is, they cannot be known to be either true or false on the basis of any empirical evidence - and must remain either believed in or not, that is, in the realm of belief, which is the theological realm, rather than the realm of knowledge, which is the epistemological realm.

So has it been written. So shall it be done.

Gosh, that solves all the problems for me. It's too bad you weren't around when Descartes, Locke, Kant, and Hegel were living. You could have set them straight.

Finally, I still encourage you to read Chesterton's Orthodoxy. It's a good read. There's a lot of definition that isn't captured by reading excerpts. This is my last post for the evening. I've enjoyed sparring with y'all, especially you Salamatis. I apologize if my tongue sounded a bit too sharp. It's a bad habit of mine I'm trying to kick.

761 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:20:48pm

re: #751 Lincolntf

We (not me, I was yet to be born) elected JFK, and he would have sworn that he was consuming a veritable McNugget made from the body of Christ every Sunday. The current (and web-centric) emphasis on Religious beliefs denies 200 years of American history of electing Presidents despite their Religious factions.
Creationism is a dead-end street, and nobody who campaigns on such a notion will ever make it anywhere nationally.

JFK was the first and only Catholic to be elected US President. No other non-Protestant president has ever been elected. And no religious fundamentalist (Southern Baptist, Southern Methodist, Assembly of God) has been elected to the office in the 20th century (and no, the former Southern Baptist Jimmy Carter is no exception). Half of them have been Prebyterian or Episcopalian.

[Link: www.adherents.com...]

762 Lincolntf  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:30:21pm

Ugh, rather than react to the verbose (and ultimately self-nullifying) reactions to my statements, I'll let everyone think that I'm some kind of Bible-thumper.
Believe me, in the end, the Creationists will be proven short-sighted, and the anti-Creationists will be proven to have missed the point entirely.

763 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 6:48:24pm

re: #760 jeremy1013

Salamantis, your definition doesn't stand up under your own critiques because it is self-defeating. There is no empirical evidence (repeatable, verifiable, and confirmed by the senses) for the claim that only that which is repeatable, verafiable, and confirmed by the senses qualifies as *knowledge*, and furthermore, that one *ought* to adopt such a view of knowledge.

Sure there is. There is no empirical knowledge that is not repeatably demonstrable under controlled conditions. The Universe may only have happened once, but that it happened, and when, can be repeatedly empirically verified. We are not talking particular events in human history here. Can one empirically verify that King Henry the VIII had Anne Boleyn beheaded? We might have her severed skeleton, and an old copy of the written order, but no one videotaped him issuing the command. But we CAN repeatedly check to see if water actually boils at 212 degrees F at sea level, if objects fall on earth in a vacuum at an acceleration coefficient 32 fps, if dino fossils register at least 65 million years old using radiometric dating, if human and great ape DNA contain thousands of the same equally genetically degraded artifactual retroviral DNA sequences in isomorphic locations, and if the Big Bang red-shift coefficient remain the same. General principles can indeed be repeatedly tested and found to hold. The fact that these things can be repeatedly verified and remain consistently true empirically bootstraps the claim that the repeatedly verifiable can be reliably known. And the fact that other things, such as the existence of dwarves fellating unicorns beneath the mountains of the moon, can't be repeatedly verified is prima facie evidence that they are UNknown.

You also said,

Allowing sectarion religious dogmas to be illegitimately shoehorned into public high school science classes is a clear Constitutional violation - as US courts have repeatedly held.

I'm not sure which absurdity you are positing: a) that the US courts are the final authority on what the Constitution says, and therefore cannot be wrong or b) that the writers of the First Amendment believed that the federal Constitution should be used to shape the way states set up their schools and educated their children. Let me know.

Actually, the US Supreme Court IS the final arbiter of the meaning of the US Constitution, and whether or not you think that it is correct matters not one whit; none of the many US court decisions against the teaching of creationism in the public school system of any state in the last half century has ever been overturned on appeal to the USSC. I do not expect this to change. Nor should you. Especially considering that public school systems are governmental, creationism is religious, and the Thomas Jefferson letter to the danbury Baptists makes it abundantly clear that the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution, of which Jefferson was a prime archtect, was meant to build a wall of separation between church and state, to use Jefferson's own felicitous phrase.

to be continued...

764 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:00:50pm

re: #760 jeremy1013

Yashmak has Karl Popper, the most significant scientific epistemologist of the 20th century, on his side. In response, you offer up the same kind of postmodern pablum that Sokal deservedly lampooned.

Postmodern!?!? Careful, sloppy language yields sloppy thinking.

People such as Foucault (whom you cited) and Derrida are the very DEFINITION of postmodern pablum. I should know; I've read them both.

Salamatis (ex cathedra):

Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. Its principles are drawn from the empirical world, and recurse to inform them. In the absence of objects in the phenomenal world that one may investigate for the purpose of gleaning knowledge of them, there would BE NO such field as epistemology. And the only way to glean knowledge of worldly objects is to empirically and repeatedly investigate and experiment upon them, and, by means of sensuous confirmation or disconfirmation, to verify or falsify particular characteristics. Theology and epistemology are nonrelational fields, since religious dogmas cannot be empirically tested; they cannot be either verified or falsified. Thus they cannot be legitimately assigned any determinate truth value - that is, they cannot be known to be either true or false on the basis of any empirical evidence - and must remain either believed in or not, that is, in the realm of belief, which is the theological realm, rather than the realm of knowledge, which is the epistemological realm.

So has it been written. So shall it be done.

Gosh, that solves all the problems for me. It's too bad you weren't around when Descartes, Locke, Kant, and Hegel were living. You could have set them straight.

Well, philosophy, like other academic fields, does advance; you know - standing on shoulders and seeing farther and all that. Especially with the benefit of increased scientific knowledge, which eliminates many dead ends and illuminates many promising paths. And yes, I have a BA in philosophy, and the major track in my humanities interdisciplinary MA is in the field. My particular specialties are genetic epistemology, hermeneutic and existential phenomenology, semiotics, and hermeneutics.

You should read my critiques of the people you mentioned some time.

Finally, I still encourage you to read Chesterton's Orthodoxy. It's a good read. There's a lot of definition that isn't captured by reading excerpts. This is my last post for the evening. I've enjoyed sparring with y'all, especially you Salamatis. I apologize if my tongue sounded a bit too sharp. It's a bad habit of mine I'm trying to kick.

It's been fun.

765 Salamantis  Tue, Nov 25, 2008 7:18:08pm