That is a good proverb. I like it.
Good evening Lizards!

A beginning thread for the night and the end of my ability to keep my eyelids open. Good Night Lizards.

Evening rawmuse. Besides every story ending is just the beginning to another story.

/hmmm just said the same thing in a different way.

Just goes to show ya . . .
It's always somethin'!

re: #2 notutopia

A beginning thread for the night and the end of my ability to keep my eyelids open. Good Night Lizards.

Good night!

Another random thought I find myself haunted by.

How come these subhumans didn't launch their attacks against Mumbai say...one month ago?

I knew a man who was taken hostage. He thought he was going to be killed, and the people that had him were intent on killing him as well.
He was rescued. Ever since then, he calls this his "2nd Life".

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice: Pull down your pants, and slide on the ice!"
-Alan Arbus, as M*A*S*H's Dr. Sidney Freedman

re: #7 rawmuse

Wow...way to seamlessly blend the L'Amour quote with current events!

An animals viewpoint on Turducken. :)

I've been away from the news over the last 36 hours. Update me, briefly: what is the current status of the situation in India? In the hotels? In the Chabad House? How many dead? Perpetrators identified? Just the facts.

re: #6 Fenway_Nation

Another random thought I find myself haunted by.

How come these subhumans didn't launch their attacks against Mumbai say...one month ago?

A couple of theories are being tossed around:

* English cricket players on tour in India, so more British prisoner potential
* Upcoming Indian elections
* India is the only country so far to stand up to the Al-Qaeda-backed Somali pirates

re: #12 gmsc

A couple of theories are being tossed around:

* English cricket players on tour in India, so more British prisoner potential
* Upcoming Indian elections
* India is the only country so far to stand up to the Al-Qaeda-backed Somali pirates

Interesting

re: #11 zombie

NDTV is saying there are still 1 to 4 terrorists still in the Taj hotel.

re: #11 zombie

Facts are still sketchy and the dust hasn't even settled yet, but the Al-Beeb made it a point to ominously intone about a possible backlash against India's muslims several hours ago.

Zombie, its an info-lanche, Drudge has a good round up. Also, Charles and Killgore mentioned that chen zhen hacked the LGF dictionary and requested your assistance.

There has been a dearth of fresh info on the Nariman House for a while now. They can't still be storming it.

re: #9 Fenway_Nation

It sprang immediately to mind.

I get Radio Prague? In English? Who knew?

re: #11 zombie

Out of curiosity, did you identify that mystery beer can the other day?

Oof. Too much turkey. Woke me up...

How are y'all?

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

One can only hope!

re: #11 zombie

I've been away from the news over the last 36 hours. Update me, briefly: what is the current status of the situation in India? In the hotels? In the Chabad House? How many dead? Perpetrators identified? Just the facts.

I do know that as of 10 minutes ago, one or two terrorists were still holed up in Nariman House, and there was firing back and forth going on. Hostages all out.

Taj - one or two terrorists still in there, apparently. The place is so huge - I'm sure it has tons of nooks and crannies to hide in, but I can't help thinking that in the USA, we'd have them all located well before now.

Blimey. There are still terrorist scum alive and uncaptured in Mumbai?!

re: #10 BlueCanuck

An animals viewpoint on Turducken. :)

POINT OF VIEW
by Shel Silverstein

Thanksgiving dinner's sad and thankless
Christmas dinner's dark and blue
When you stop and try to see it
From the turkey's point of view.

Sunday dinner isn't sunny
Easter feasts are just bad luck
When you see it from the viewpoint
Of a chicken or a duck.

Oh how I once loved tuna salad
Pork and lobsters, lamb chops too
Till I stopped and looked at dinner
From the dinner's point of view.

re: #16 MrPaulRevere

Zombie, its an info-lanche, Drudge has a good round up. Also, Charles and Killgore mentioned that chen zhen hacked the LGF dictionary and requested your assistance.

I fixed that just a couple hours after it happened, this morning. A very brief episode.

re: #20 BlueCanuck

Out of curiosity, did you identify that mystery beer can the other day?

Nope, never did.

I am very grateful that both of my little ones are getting and will get a chance to know and have a relationship with their great-grandparents.

We were over there this afternoon for thanksgiving lunch, and they both had such a good time it's nice to see.

Plus they got to spend time with grandparents from both sides of the family today. Good fortune for us

This is only 5 minutes old on Debka. But nothing new.

The force dropped on the roof of the Chabad Center in Mumbai Thursday night 36 hours after its seizure by Islamist gunmen. Some sources report Rabbi Gavriel Holzman, his family and others have been rescued alive; others say that none of the hostages have survived. Explosions were heard there Friday morning.

The soldiers fired smoke bombs into the building and are clearing it room by room from the top fifth and fourth floors. DEBKAfile reports the operation was agreed by the Indian and Israeli governments when it appeared that the chances of finding living hostages in the Chabad Center were declining as time went by.

From the Oberoi Hotel, Indian police report 93 guests have been evacuated so far, but the operation there continues. The Israeli consul Orna Sagiv says she cannot tell if they include Israelis as the Indian police prevent access to the rescued hostages. She reported 30 Israelis missing in India, but said not all may have been in Mumbai when the attack began.

At least 125 people have been killed and 327 injured across the city, a figure expected to rise before the episode is over.

Indian sources identify the terrorists as Pakistani British citizens. The ship which brought them to Mumbai is thought to be an Indian vessel hijacked and sailed to Karachi, Pakistan. French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner is certain they are al Qaeda.

Indian police report 400 hostages freed from the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel. However by Day 3 of the terrorist assault on Mumbai, Indian police and special forces had not finished their takeover of the three locations seized by the Islamists. While some of the released hostages are Westerners, many are Indians allowed by their captors to go free. Military sources expect the operation to continue well into Friday, Nov. 28.

"mystery beer can"?

Also, Zombie - they are still combing through the Oberoi - it is huge, so it is very slow going.

re: #27 zombie

Nope, never did.

Here's something that may help: Around the World in 116 Beers

/We have music search engines that can find music just by listening to you hum it. Why can't we have something similar for beer labels?

re: #32 gmsc

Here's something that may help: Around the World in 116 Beers

/We have music search engines that can find music just by listening to you hum it. Why can't we have something similar for beer labels?

"Shazam" is awesome.

According to Indian newspaper 'The Hindu' eight Lashkar-e-Taiba extremists/militants/terrorists last year made a practice run by boat from Pakistan to Mumbai to rehearse this weekend's trip.

I just read this in the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf.

On one Indian news feed I heard earlier today, the female reporter and her crew had to bug out, as they were apparently caught up in some sectarian thing - it was audio only, and there was a lot of angry yelling, then she said "we have to get out of here."

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

Facts are still sketchy and the dust hasn't even settled yet, but the Al-Beeb made it a point to ominously intone about a possible backlash against India's muslims several hours ago.

Good grief. I was wondering yesterday how long that might take and who'd go there first, but my money would have been on CAIR.

Thanks everyone!

re: #36 Clemente

Good grief. I was wondering yesterday how long that might take and who'd go there first, but my money would have been on CAIR.

It is not idle speculation in the case of India, IMHO.

If I'm not mistaken, these subhumans came in from the sea- correct?

What I'd like to know is where's the vessel that this attack was launched from?

The Indian Navy has been very busy for the past week or so. Does anyone think that sinking of pirate vessel in the Gulf of Aden last week was an attempt to pre-empt this sort of attack?

After the attacks, the Navy and Coast Guard also searched two Pakistani ships in the sea north of Mumbai.

If this was a seaborne attack, did it originate in Pakistan, somewhere along the Red Sea coast in Somalia or Yemen? Or could it have been launched from within India itself?

Good night.

IBN has been reporting "Operation To Be Over In One Hour" for hours.

I just stumbled across this: "Mumbai attacks: Was computer expert aged 36 the mastermind?" [Link: news.scotsman.com...]

re: #40 Occasional Reader

Good night.

Good night, OR!

re: #41 Abu Al-Poopypants

IBN has been reporting "Operation To Be Over In One Hour" for hours.

Eventually, they'll be right.

Has there been in informed speculation on the response by Hindu's? They have been known to react vigorously to these kind of terrorist acts.

I just read that the firing by terrorists at the railway station lasted more than two hours. That just doesn't make sense to me. I realize it's a Victorian building and very big, and I don't know how the police op went down, but it just seems strange that those animals were at large in the building shooting people for that long. None of the articles I've seen explain anything in detail - everything is chaos.

re: #45 fiat_lux

Just wait for the mop up to be done and the whole horror of the situation to stew for a couple of days first.

A commando is talking on NDTV now - his face is covered, I assume to maintain anonymity. It's in English. He is describing the op at the Oberoi, I think, blow by blow.

OK, Kudos to Nova Scotia developers for developing the Pomegranatephone!

WANT!

So whats the latest news on the Obama not being born in the U.S conspiracy?

re: #12 gmsc

gotta add that India's had muslim problems for 1000 years. There may not have been any preference for timing beyond when they finished preparation.

re: #39 Fenway_Nation

The Times of India had a big graphic with an arrow pointing from Karachi, Pakistan to Mumbai.

They had so much traffic that the article wouldn't open for me though.

re: #50 traderjoe9

So whats the latest news on the Obama not being born in the U.S conspiracy?

As always, it's fun to watch, but has little more substance beyond that. Google "Berg", "Keyes" and/or "Birth Certificate" to find out what the latest on the conspiracy theory is.

Could a computer person look at this deal and tell me if it is good? It looks great to me, but I don't really know enough to say.

[Link: www.walmart.com...]

re: #50 traderjoe9

So whats the latest news on the Obama not being born in the U.S conspiracy?

still crazy after all these years

[Link: timesofindia.indiatimes.com...]

There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.

— Louis L’Amour

"No matter where you go, there you are."

Buckaroo Banzai

/expect the unexpected

AND YET AGAIN, WITH FEELING
There is no better land to live for.

Tuesday night of last week, I got a call from a good friend of mine. I just wasn’t in the mood to take it, you know? You’ve been there. Anyway, he didn’t leave a message.

The next day got away from me, but the day after that I called his cell on the way to work just to catch up. His wife answered the phone. And then I found out that my good friend Richard had died in his sleep the day before. Just like that. Gone. He left a wife, a five year old daughter, and a son who’s not yet one.

So this is my Thanksgiving message. It’s not dreary or sad at all – on the contrary.

You see, my friend Richard worked for Boeing. He was a defense contractor, and, like so many of his fellow employees, he was a true-blue patriot who loved his country and spent his life making sure that she did not come to harm. I am thankful to him for that… to Richard and all those others, and I am thankful to live in a time where the very idea of a person in their mid forties simply up and dying is so stunning and unheard of that it takes a week just to process it. It’s because of men like Richard that we don’t have to worry about armed invasion – a fear borne by pretty much every human throughout all of recorded, and pre-recorded history. And I am especially grateful to the millions of other hardworking, dedicated people that have so far pushed the boundaries of medicine and science that death itself – which was commonplace for my father’s generation – now seems surreal and almost unnatural.

But of all the things I am thankful for on this most American of holidays, nothing surpasses the pride and gratitude I feel to live in a country where I may sit in this chair and write about whatever I damn well please, without fear of retribution or intimidation. It’s an amazing right. And I’ll continue to sit here and rail against the things I feel hurt our country and our people, knowing in my heart that the instant the people I oppose so passionately actually start to suffer the loss of their rights or freedoms I will be there defending them – armed, if necessary – and that the vast majority of them will do the same for me.

There was a headline on the Drudge Report on Tuesday about a Russian analyst predicting the break-up and fall of the USA. Don’t hold your breath, comrade. Today, all across this country, millions of people who go head-to-head on red state/blue state issues will go home, eat a bunch of turkey, and then passionately, perhaps violently, go at it again watching Auburn take on Alabama, or Florida play Florida State. And we’ll get about as hot and excited as we do about politics, and none of it will matter. Because when all is said and done, we’re all Americans, together. That’s not something that Russian analyst – or just about anyone else who’s not a part of this raucous, screaming family – has ever been able to figure out.

My office is located just a few blocks from LAX. Driving in to work today, I watched a Qantas 747 rotate, climb into a clear blue sky, and head on out to sea. I’ve been on that flight… twelve and a half hours at 85% of the speed of sound, and nothing but water after the first mile. We watch movies and eat dinner, perhaps sleep for a while, eight miles above the earth, flying through the sub-zero air with the speed of a musket ball.

This is a world of miracles. My friend Richard helped build them. We’re pilots, Richard and I, and pilots say “our friend has ‘Gone West.’” Someday, when they are older – and if I haven’t gone west myself – I’ll tell his children what kind of man their father was, and the part he played keeping this magnificent family safe and free and, for the most part, thankful.

Have a great Thanksgiving, everyone. We earn it, every year.

re: #58 gmsc

AND YET AGAIN, WITH FEELING
There is no better land to live for.

BTW, that's Bill Whittle's newest post!

Sorry, this one is long, rambling. Had to cut it into two parts.

I have not posted one of these in a long time. I just came back from a showing of “Slumdog Millionaire”. I have a lot of thoughts and I’m just going to spew them out because LGF people will know where I’m coming from. The movie was in many ways a lovely Dickensian fable but with a Bollywood twist, based on the book “Q&A” which I never read. I didn’t know anything about this movie. I went because it was about Mumbai and I wanted to do something to show some solidarity with the people of that city.

I probably should have looked into it more first. The director was Danny Boyle, who did Trainspotting, and many parts have that look and feel.

Anyway, there was one thing in the film that irked me – and it probably shouldn’t have – is that in an early but very meaningful twist, the American audience is shown that the main character is a Muslim (although highly unreligious). This was obvious from his name but it’s brought home in a scene of Hindu nationalist rioting against Muslims.

Now, I’ll be the first to say that I know next to nothing about the history of Hindu/Muslim relations in India, but. . . how many Hindus live in Pakistan? More than 10% of the Indian population is Muslim (approximately), but does the same hold true for Pakistan? Are Hindus as well tolerated in Pakistan as Muslims are in India? None of these things have anything to do with the move – it was just something that occurred to me because of the news.

Anyway, back to the movie. . . it really is a terrific (and at times silly) little fable with a very happy ending that is meant to (and does) tug at your heart strings. I don’t know why I’m so peeved by that one artificial dramatic device. I mean, its really no big deal except. . . well, I guess it didn’t help that one of the previes before the movie started was for an Israeli animated film called “Waltz With Bashir” which is about Shabra and Shatilla, from the standpoint of a guilt-ridden and shell-shocked Israeli soldier (the “Lebanon as Israel’s Vietnam” motif is strong). The animation looked beautiful but it just made me nauseous to think how many people would watch that, who know nothing of history or the middle east, and have their media-tought message of Arabs as helpless victims just lashing out in self-defense confirmed, again. I just checked the reviews and, naturally, the Guardian, Scotsman, all the UK regular suspects just loved it.

re: #57 redc1c4

"No matter where you go, there you are."

Buckaroo Banzai

Buckaroo Baznai quoting Confucius, that is.

(con't)

Maybe the only point I’m trying to make is that both the Indian and Israeli intellectual/arts/culture class seem to do absolutely everything they can – putting truly their very greatest artistry – into analyzing their own moral culpability with regards to anything Muslim. Here you have perhaps the two most dynamic countries in the world, the ‘bookends’ or ‘border states’ if you will to the Muslim world (the Uma?) putting their most profound creative and intellectual energies into art that profoundly misleads their audience. We know little to nothing about the Muslim world because it is, for the most part, fundamentally closed, totalitarian, and opaque (with the exception, thank God, of Iraq, the Muslim world’s first multi-ethnic Democracy, thanks to the American soldier). None of this sort of art would be possible there. But most of us, without a really good grasp of history and politics, don’t know any of that.

Probably the people making this art are good, moral people. They believe that artists are supposed to look at their societies (or themselves if they are really brave) in the mirror and point out their flaws, artistically. But I also think that in making their small moral point they miss the much larger moral point. Much like artists in the 20th century railed against the West and played down the horrors of the Soviet Union, the same thing is going on now. Maybe that’s just the way the West works. Maybe that’s one of the things that makes us strong. Or maybe it just confuses matters and delays the one and only path to peace and prosperity for us all: the renunciation of terror; the acceptance of peaceable co-existence.

re: #61 gmsc

Buckaroo Baznai quoting Confucius, that is.

Confucius is a Blue Blazer Irregular...

/newbies

Oh dear lord...one of the 80s Channels is having a 'Tribute to Micheal Hutchence' weekend. Not sure if it's worth hanging around for...

re: #63 redc1c4

Confucius is a Blue Blazer Irregular...

/newbies

. . . but his pants were 34 medium.

?!?

IBN reporting gunfire at GT Hospital and another location(sounds like a train station). Wondering if they found the other terrorists they couldn't account for.

re: #64 Fenway_Nation

Oh dear lord...one of the 80s Channels is having a 'Tribute to Micheal Hutchence' weekend. Not sure if it's worth hanging around for...

Oooh . . . isn't he that rock star whose life was cut short? Or maybe I'm thinking of one of the other 10 million rock stars whose life was cut short.

/"Need You Tonight" is the only INXS song I can name.

Let me rephrase that last part:

This sort of art just confuses matters and delays the one and only path to peace and prosperity for us all: the renunciation of terrorism by extremist sects; the acceptance of voting and peaceable negotiation by former terrorists . Until the millions of "extremists" who are more than willing to kill and die for (usually) Allah, change their minds (or ways), there can’t be genuine peace. And I simply don’t see that same threat from, for example, Hindus. And this movie – at least in a small way – seems to sort of say that.

One final point: if nothing else the film does an amazing, perhaps unintended, job of showing the phenomenal dynamism. In a single generation Bombay went from one of the world's largest, nastiest slums, to Mumbai, a modern, thriving city. This didn't happen by accident: it was openness, democracy, energy, freedom, entrepreneurship, etc. -- i.e western ideas and markets. Funny how these are the targets that the 'extremists' are so eager to hit.

One final, final point: there is a scene toward the end where someone says "God is great" and it is meant to suggest that unusual, inexplicable, extraordinary things happen for a reason (God, presumably) and that He has a plan, even when we can't understand any of it at any given moment. All I can say to that is. . . I certainly hope so.

Well, I'm too tired to stay up any more. I'll come back tomorrow morning to see if anybody looked at the laptop at WalMart and left an opinion/purchasing advice.

good night!

re: #65 gmsc

. . . but his pants were 34 medium.

?!?

of course he's a medium: Confucius in nether rare nor well done.

re: #67 gmsc

Yes- apparently it was 11 years ago last week they found Hutchense's body in a Sydney hotel room.

[Link: timesofindia.indiatimes.com...]

short article; 3 of terrorists arrested said to be LeT from Pakistan.

good night

Gee, there's so little on TV to decide between. Do I watch the History Channel's Nostradamus program, or Sean Hannity's Roswell theories?

CST Station. Trains stopped.

re: #71 Fenway_Nation

Yes- apparently it was 11 years ago last week they found Hutchense's body in a Sydney hotel room.

If somebody were ever to ask me if I wanted to be a rock star, my reply would be, "NOOO! I want to LIVE!"

GT hospital being evacuated.

IBN now apologizing for "spreading panic" for reporting what seems to be a panic reaction to rumor.

re: #54 funky chicken

Could a computer person look at this deal and tell me if it is good? It looks great to me, but I don't really know enough to say.

[Link: www.walmart.com...]

I'm no expert, but it seems like I've seen the same thing for the same price at Best Buy or Circuit City. Three gig RAM is pretty much standard in laptops now; 250 gig HD is above average for low-priced laptops (usually 160 in the low-end ones)... not a bad deal, but not a great deal either. IMHO.

/it'll be "olde fashioned" in six months anyway... mine was :(

re: #42 MrPaulRevere

I just stumbled across this: "Mumbai attacks: Was computer expert aged 36 the mastermind?" [Link: news.scotsman.com...]

Mastermind? Like this type of crap takes some sort of genius to plan.

re: #79 Rancher

Underestimating ones enemies can be a fatal mistake.

I definitely think this stuff takes major effort to plan. A coordinated enemy is a dangerous enemy.

re: #60 Sergio

Coincidentally, I saw the same movie this evening. It's a good ride, although flawed in some aspects, and gives a vision of the slums of Mumbai and India in general so colorful you can practically smell it.

While there have been periodic Hindu-Muslim flareups in India where there's been mob violence by the former against the latter, by and large the Muslims have it reasonably well in India while causing most of the violence. While Hindus are now close to being ethnically cleansed from Pakistan, due to intolerable conditions as per usual for religious minorities.

Definitely seems like a nod to PC to make the hero Muslim. The story would have worked just as well had he been Hindu like 90% of Indians.

re: #62 Sergio

We know little to nothing about the Muslim world because it is, for the most part, fundamentally closed, totalitarian, and opaque (with the exception, thank God, of Iraq, the Muslim world’s first multi-ethnic Democracy, thanks to the American soldier).

I don't think that we even know how huge a deal that is. History may well proclaim it as a turning point of sorts. We can hope.

re: #54 funky chicken

Could a computer person look at this deal and tell me if it is good? It looks great to me, but I don't really know enough to say.

[Link: www.walmart.com...]

It's been a few months since I've done any laptop pricing, but I'd call that a fair deal with a smattering of good... but not a great deal. If it doesn't fit what you want, I'd say keep shopping for something a little bit better.

IMO, the reality is that PC hardware has become so competitively priced these days that any purchase in the $500-$1000 range should get you an effective PC without over investing in top end hardware that will be 50% cheaper in a few months. Hope that helps a little.

re: #83 Rancher

I don't think that we even know how huge a deal that is. History may well proclaim it as a turning point of sorts. We can hope.

If so, history will look kindly on Bush 43.

Well I am out here. May as well get some sleep when things are quiet for once. Some one give my best to littleoldlady when she shows up.

re: #64 Fenway_Nation

Oh dear lord...one of the 80s Channels is having a 'Tribute to Micheal Hutchence' weekend. Not sure if it's worth hanging around for...

Being from Australia and growing up in the 80's I almost worshipped him. INXS was almost my favourite band for a while back then.

Sadly missed.

If there's anyone out there in the UK that has a bit of spare time, I'm hoping someone can forward a used book to me in Canada. It's on the British Amazon.co.uk site, but the seller won't ship overseas. I'd pay for the book and have it sent to you for forwarding. If you have PayPal I could pay you immediately for the postage;. My nic is blue with my e-mail addie.

TIA

Moe

Good night, all! I'm going to bed.

re: #89 gmsc

And miss this fast-paced scintillating discussion here!? YOur loss...

G'nite!

Happy Thanksgiving, Lizards. This is a drive-by for me. We had a lovely evening with nine guests. Thankful for all of our blessings.

We lit a candle for those in Mumbai. Had the Twitter Mumbai on all day and take it with a grain of salt but in the few minutes i have checked it, Ive heard "the trains are stopped", "Pakistan could be responsible", " fourth and fifth story of the Nariman house is being cleared" etc.
[Link: search.twitter.com...]

Goodnight and take care, all.

re: #89 gmsc

Good night, all! I'm going to bed.

For real this time, goodnight.

re: #85 WF Bach

If so, history will look kindly on Bush 43.

One of my biggest problems with our outgoing administration was the justifications for the invasion of Iraq. I spent some time in the area prior to 9/11 and knew that the stories being fed to us were 90% bull, but the whole time I kept telling myself maybe the real reason is simply because the rest of the world needs an in-road of sanity for that region and Iraq happens to be the most vulnerable point. That vulnerability also made it a good area to bring under control before it became a target for its enemies and turned into another hopeless cesspit. I'm not a "conspiracy nut", I just hate it when I'm being lied to even if I can understand the reasons.

I'll admit it's all just another version of the regime building game that first world countries have been playing for quite awhile now. But it's nice to see one that at least appears to have been a real attempt to build a capable government instead of just a rehash of the same old violence and corruption.

Well isn't this nice. It looks like I'm the only one getting up to go to work this morning.

re: #93 Unboldened

One of my biggest problems with our outgoing administration was the justifications for the invasion of Iraq. I spent some time in the area prior to 9/11 and knew that the stories being fed to us were 90% bull, but the whole time I kept telling myself maybe the real reason is simply because the rest of the world needs an in-road of sanity for that region and Iraq happens to be the most vulnerable point. That vulnerability also made it a good area to bring under control before it became a target for its enemies and turned into another hopeless cesspit. I'm not a "conspiracy nut", I just hate it when I'm being lied to even if I can understand the reasons.

I'll admit it's all just another version of the regime building game that first world countries have been playing for quite awhile now. But it's nice to see one that at least appears to have been a real attempt to build a capable government instead of just a rehash of the same old violence and corruption.

Not sure how truthful the administration was about the reasons for going in, but if it turns out to have been a good move in the long run I could forgive any deception, I think.

re: #93 Unboldened

I spent some time in the area prior to 9/11 and knew that the stories being fed to us were 90% bull

You knew Saddam had no WMDs? Not even Chemical? Aside from our intelligence agencies, the Israelis, the Turks, the Brits, and the Egyptians thought he did. What lies where told?

re: #93 Unboldened

How much before 9/11? During the Clinton Admin.?

re: #96 Rancher

You knew Saddam had no WMDs? Not even Chemical? Aside from our intelligence agencies, the Israelis, the Turks, the Brits, and the Egyptians thought he did. What lies where told?

lol, the stupidity of these people is beyond me. We were looking at the same intelligence EVERYONE was looking at. Not just US, not just Bush, not just Cheney, EVERYONE.

re: #94 BBEV

Well isn't this nice. It looks like I'm the only one getting up to go to work this morning.

I'm at work.

re: #99 Rancher

I'm at work.

I'm (not) at work!

re: #100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

or

I'm at work.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
NOT!

Good morning, afternoon, evening * everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet--->
Help yourselves!

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"My position is very clear: The time has come for decisive action to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. I'm a co-sponsor of the bipartisan resolution that's presently under consideration in the Senate. Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave threat to America and our allies..."
John Edwards (D, NC), Oct. 7, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002.

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct. 10, 2002.

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.
Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

re: #100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm (not) at work!

I'm retired...:)

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them."
President Clinton, Jan. 27, 1998.

"Fateful decisions will be made in the days and weeks ahead. At issue is nothing less than the fundamental question of whether or not we can keep the most lethal weapons known to mankind out of the hands of an unreconstructed tyrant and aggressor who is in the same league as the most brutal dictators of this century."
Sen. Joe Biden (D, DE), Feb. 12, 1998

"It is essential that a dictator like Saddam not be allowed to evade international strictures and wield frightening weapons of mass destruction. As long as UNSCOM is prevented from carrying out its mission, the effort to monitor Iraqi compliance with Resolution 687 becomes a dangerous shell game. Neither the United States nor the global community can afford to allow Saddam Hussein to continue on this path."
Sen. Tom Daschle (D, SD), Feb. 12, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeleine Albright, Feb. 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb. 18, 1998.

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeleine Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored away secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

Lies, lies, lies, Democrats lied people died!

re: #103 Rancher

I know you could go back to the 1990s and find similar quotes from Al Gore and Billy Jeff.

/seriously...I just don't know exactly where.

Great minds and all that...

re: #93 Unboldened

Hey. Bring this out in the daylight. Why hide it at 4am?

You were there? Why didn't you tell anybody. Everybody else's intelligence showed that Saddam had some bad stuff, and bad intentions along to go with them.

99% of the new Lizards who start out as you have, are trolls. You in the 1%?

Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

Was that a drive-by fruitcupping by LoL?

Fenway! :-)

Sorta. I blame the turkey...

re: #112 littleoldlady

Fenway! :-)

Sorta. I blame the turkey...

I bought one of the turkey in a bag deals for thanksgiving, damn turkey won't stay in the bag...:(

You bagged a turkey?

Dustyvet! :-)

There was a lot of gobble gobbling going on here, too.

/my recovery time is much longer in my old age... :-/

re: #102 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening * everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet--->
Help yourselves!

Hope everything went well yesterday...

Our food was awesome!

re: #115 littleoldlady

Dustyvet! :-)

There was a lot of gobble gobbling going on here, too.

/my recovery time is much longer in my old age... :-/

Arthur 'Big Guy' Carlson: As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Hehe i had a great turkey day think i gained about 5-10lbs off a single meal. So does charles not want me here has 6 hours open reg while I sleep :P

Rustler

re: #116 TheMatrix31

Hope everything went well yesterday...

Our food was awesome!

That's what my nieces said!

/in fact, that's the only reason they come here...

You would have had lots of fun in my house yesterday, Matrix. Not only the awesome food, but four stunning college girls. One each, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior.

/two of them are bright, too! ;-)

re: #119 littleoldlady

Oh dear...by process of elimination, that would leave two 0bamanauts- but with a 52%-48% margin I suppose that was inevitable.

re: #118 rancher

Hey bud, I asked if I could register you, kept getting the silent treatment. Don't know if that means "no" or "I don't notice your little comment, plebe"... So I left it alone.

One totally NON Obamabot. Three totally disinterested.

/hey, it takes a lot of time and energy to be that pretty!

re: #119 littleoldlady

That's what my nieces said!

/in fact, that's the only reason they come here...

You would have had lots of fun in my house yesterday, Matrix. Not only the awesome food, but four stunning college girls. One each, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior.

/two of them are bright, too! ;-)

Don't tease me, LoL :(

re: #122 littleoldlady

/hey, it takes a lot of time and energy to be that pretty!

And don't I know it!

re: #124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, how was your tofu yesterday?

.re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey bud, I asked if I could register you, kept getting the silent treatment. Don't know if that means "no" or "I don't notice your little comment, plebe"... So I left it alone.

I've just suggested to Charles that new registrations be by application, which can be made at any time. My idea is to require a little essay that Charles can use to screen the applicants. Don't know what he'll think of that, but I can see advantages in going that route.

re: #119 littleoldlady

You would have had lots of fun in my house yesterday, Matrix. Not only the awesome food, but four stunning college girls. One each, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior.

Geesh...I'd have had lots of fun also but did I get an invite? Oh nooo!

/wearing trenchcoat ;-)

Mornin Lol, FBV, Fenway, rancher, Dusty, Matrix...everyone.

aboo! :-)

You didn't get your invitation?!

/damn post office!

re: #127 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Mornin, buddy!

I just jumped over to IBN and am surprised to learn that "operations" are still going on. The situation still appears unbelievably chaotic and fundamentally unchanged.

Firing resumes at Nariman house...

re: #125 littleoldlady

Extry good.

Went to bed last night at 7:15pm, woke up at 4. Perfect.

Is the Mumbai Massacre over?

Real Rancher

re: #130 Bubbaman

re: #131 Bubbaman

Nevermind. :(

No not yet, but close.
Then begins the hunt.

I've been afraid to ask what's going on at Chabad... :-(

dang. Foiled by the usps again. :-)

Some interesting reading(in no order) of a problem which is going to smack Obummer up the side-of-the-head probably before the day is out January 20, 09': Former Soviet republic fears it may be next on the Kremlin's hit list

Saakashvili Takes Paris

Russia's Next War

It's not like we're not going to have enough problems with Obummer just being Obummer but pile on the Islamaniac's, the Rooshkies, the Mullah's and the Chinese, I'm really thinking everyone should donate a carton of Depends© to the WH as an inauguration present.

Hell, for that matter, it might be a good idear to keep a box or two around the house for those unexpected Obummer moments. ;-)

good morning everyone. I see ops in Mumbai are still ongoing. The Daily Mail (UK) is reporting

British-born Pakistanis were among the Mumbai terrorists, Indian government sources claimed today, as the death toll rose to more than 140.
Two Britons were among eight gunmen captured by commandos after they stormed two hotels and a Jewish centre to free hostages, the city's chief minister said.

A quick good morning to all y'all...going to work in just a few minutes.

Ahhh, the after-effects of eating too much the day before.

/I had no choice! Pumpkin pie was screaming for more whipped cream!

I read yesterday that after the obama family did their intro tour of the White House, that barack announced that his one daughter decided on the Lincoln Bedroom to do her homework at the desk there; and that he described to her that that's where President Lincoln signed the Gettysburg Address

Heh.

During the interview, Obama described the desk as being the spot where Lincoln signed the Gettysburg Address. While there is a copy of the address on display in that room, it actually was the Emancipation Proclamation freeing the slaves that Lincoln signed there.

/Sure hope he gets his facts straight before making any major decisions.

gettinby! :-) :-) :-)

57 states varieties of history...

I have to get going. MNTS and I always partake in our Black Friday ritual, and although I saw nothing in "door busters" that I'd want to buy, I guess we should get in the car and go somewhere anyway.

/just because

Good day, ALL!&trade

re: #140 littleoldlady

LOL! We could call them o'isms (like Bushisms), but in o's case, I believe he mostly believes what he says is the truth.

/I'm calling it the insanity factor. A soft life for so many years has produced some real mushheads in this country (imho, of course).

{littleoldlady} (I'm giving it a very educated guess on which young lady at your house yesterday was the prettiest, and more importantly, the brightest...) ;)

Have a great day everyone!

Off to work.

re: #139 gettinby
I doubt Lincoln signed the Gettysburg Address, it was a speech he wrote on the train going to the event IIRC.

Two Mumbai gunmen were British

Britain, exporter of jihadists. Will this revelation lead to any searching questions about what is being taught in mosques in Britain? Will it lead to any public discussion about immigration and assimilation, or about British values and Sharia? Somehow I doubt it.

"Mumbai gunmen 'were BRITISH': Indian authorities say two of arrested militants are from UK," by Justin Davenport , Rashid Razaq and Nicola Boden for the Daily Mail, November 28 (thanks to KM):

British-born Pakistanis were among the Mumbai terrorists, Indian government sources claimed today, as the death toll rose to more than 140.

Two Britons were among eight gunmen captured by commandos after they stormed two hotels and a Jewish centre to free hostages, the city's chief minister said.

Vilasrao Deshmukh also revealed that up to 25 terrorists were responsible for the series of bomb blasts and shootings that targeted tourists and foreign interests. [...]

It is known that dozens of British-born Pakistanis have travelled to Pakistan to train in its camps in recent years.

One security source said recently: 'The camps are full and many of the people inside are Brits.'

Last night, there was speculation that a British Al Qaeda suspect reportedly killed by a U.S. missile strike in Pakistan last weekend may have helped plot the attacks.

Rashid Rauf was among five killed in a missile attack in a tribal area in North Waziristan on Saturday.

Security sources believe that at the time of his death Rauf had been planning a major attack on Western targets.[...]

Meanwhile, jihadists in the UK -- like their stealth jihadist brethren stateside -- claim victim status and claim anti-Muslim bias in news coverage:

But firebrand British-based Muslim preacher Anjem Choudhary backed the terrorists and said any Britons killed or held hostage were legitimate targets because they should not have gone to India.

Choudhary, right-hand man to preacher of hate Omar Bakri, said Britain and America is at war with the Muslim world and their citizens must keep off the battlefield.

'Muslims are being killed in Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan every day through acts of atrocity against them. But the media only report events like Mumbai.'

[Link: jihadwatch.org...]

re: #145 Dustyvet
At first I thought this was Kashmir separatists but now it really looks like Al Qaeda is behind it.

Good morning, Lizards! What's going on with the explosion at the Taj?

re: #145 Dustyvet

Two Mumbai gunmen were British ... Will this revelation lead to any searching questions about ...

I believe it will. Massive attacks with horrific emotional content, like these, can only focus attention. It's the lesser attacks which can be conveniently ignored and/or "excused".

The question is, will the agonizing lead to concrete change of attitude, and thence to action?

Guten Morgon von München! Lousy time to be stuck without good internet access, until now. Tgiving spent flying SFO-ORD-MUC, at least I was in all business class (C for you frequent flyers). This is some crazy stuff. Time for at least 1 fucking country on this planet to adopt the "Saudi rule" - no religion that may be officially practised in Saudi Arabia may be practiced there; only those religions that may not be, in other words. ;-)

re: #147 gclaghorn

Good morning, Lizards! What's going on with the explosion at the Taj?

Don't know. I've heard grenades.

A commander categorically stated that there are NO hostages inside the Taj. The operation has apparently changed to aggressive tactics as a result.

Britain is the only country in the world whose culture actually satirizes its own tv. IOW, life reflects tv, not the other way around. Britain is so fucked up. It literally cannot get anything right, from managing health care to defending itself from Islam. Argentina could take the Falklands back now and Britain would probably spend the first day writing the script for the next Young Ones episode or something. Talk about falling off the top of the world.

re: #150 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Don't know. I've heard grenades.

A commander categorically stated that there are NO hostages inside the Taj. The operation has apparently changed to aggressive tactics as a result.

I hear that there are still hostages at Chabad, too. Is this correct?

Taj bellowing smoke again...

re: #153 infidel4ever

Taj bellowing smoke again...

IBN is showing smoke coming from the Nariman house.

Watching IBN and NDTV, I'm reminded once again why I quit watching TV 25 years ago. These reporters much get paid by the word. They seem emotionally incapable of silence.

blather blather blather bullshit blather rumor blather blather conjecture blather day-old-news blather blather rumor rumor blather blather wild-eyed-conjecture blather blather rumor bullshit blather blather ...

re: #152 gclaghorn

I hear that there are still hostages at Chabad, too. Is this correct?

We have no way of knowing if the Rabbi and his wife, and others, are still alive.

re: #154 gclaghorn

IBN is showing smoke coming from the Nariman house.

Troops apparently used something "heavy".

Good morning LGF.
I hope all had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
The Mumbai situation is quickly becoming a disgraceful illustration of the gross incompetence and impotence of the Indian authorities and military. By all reports some 25 terrorists have managed to continue their operations for almost 2 days now, with no apparent end in sight, notwithstanding the deployment of many hundreds of soldiers, commandos, snipers, helicopters, etc.
These bungling fools seem to be conducting this operation as if it was a reaction to some kind of large scale conventional military occupation by an invading army, rather than an infestation by a few bloodthirsty little pricks who need to be quickly overwhelmed and terminated within a few minutes.
WAKE UP INDIA!

Good Morning everyone. This mess is still going on, three days? I have not turned on the TV yet.

I cannot believe that many malls are already open.

re: #160 MandyManners

I cannot believe that many malls are already open.

I can't believe they started opening at 4 am.

re: #159 CapeCoddah

Good Morning everyone. This mess is still going on, three days? I have not turned on the TV yet.

[Link: ibnlive.in.com...]

re: #158 Spare O'Lake

I disagree ... 100%.

re: #161 wahabicorridor

I can't believe they started opening at 4 am.

I don't recall that happening last year. Am I correct or just forgetful?

Thanks, Mandy, what a hell of a mess. How the hell does this go on for 3 days? Who trained these troops, Santa's elves?

re: #158 Spare O'Lake

Good morning LGF.
I hope all had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
The Mumbai situation is quickly becoming a disgraceful illustration of the gross incompetence and impotence of the Indian authorities and military. By all reports some 25 terrorists have managed to continue their operations for almost 2 days now, with no apparent end in sight, notwithstanding the deployment of many hundreds of soldiers, commandos, snipers, helicopters, etc.
These bungling fools seem to be conducting this operation as if it was a reaction to some kind of large scale conventional military occupation by an invading army, rather than an infestation by a few bloodthirsty little pricks who need to be quickly overwhelmed and terminated within a few minutes.
WAKE UP INDIA!

Didn't the terrorirsts take out a bunch of top military/anti-terrorist officials Wednesday?

Good morning, lizards! Any avid book readers out there? If so, you may want to bid on this: Hitler's Bookmark Found.

Who knew he could read?

re: #165 CapeCoddah

Thanks, Mandy, what a hell of a mess. How the hell does this go on for 3 days? Who trained these troops, Santa's elves?

See my No. 166.

re: #166 MandyManners

The head of the anti-terrorism unit was killed while attacking terrorists who'd attacked one of the hospitals.

re: #167 Wyatt Earp

Good morning, lizards! Any avid book readers out there? If so, you may want to bid on this: Hitler's Bookmark Found.

Who knew he could read?

I figured Hitler for a dog-eared page kind of guy.

I think he was too proud to damage his books.

With the Pakistan connection to the Mumbai assault now all but proven, this could get very ugly very fast. At the very least, there will be anti-Muslim riots. At the very worst...

re: #169 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The head of the anti-terrorism unit was killed while attacking terrorists who'd attacked one of the hospitals.

Was the hospital where the wounded were taken?

re: #170 MandyManners

I think he was too proud to damage his books.

He was also to proud (and ignorant) to realize the Soviets and the Allies were beating his tail on a two-front war.

re: #168 MandyManners

See my No. 166.

Yeah, saw that, but, well trained troops should be able to carry out the mission, I would think. Although, the lack of leadership could pose an issue.

re: #172 MandyManners

Yes, but I don't know anything else about it. Haven't had time to go back and vacuum for facts.

re: #156 pre-Boomer Marine brat
According to the Chabad web page, theyeshivaworld.com, which seems to be being very careful not to print anything they can't confirm says 6. However, they are only listing 5 names(the rabbi, the rebbetzin, 2 mashgichim and a woman's name). IBN is reporting a massive explosion with major damage to the building so who knows how anyone is doing.

re: #167 Wyatt Earp

Good morning, lizards! Any avid book readers out there? If so, you may want to bid on this: Hitler's Bookmark Found.

Who knew he could read?

He was quite an avid reader and although, thankfully, his ego got the better of him, he was also quite technically adroit with military technology for the most part. I'm not going to defendn him, certainly, but no point in being inaccurate.

re: #177 SFGoth

He was quite an avid reader and although, thankfully, his ego got the better of him, he was also quite technically adroit with military technology for the most part. I'm not going to defendn him, certainly, but no point in being inaccurate.

Didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.

Just saw a replay of the 3rd floor explosion at Nariman House. I'll bet the rent payment that it was a grenade. Not big enough to be a rocket of some sort.

re: #171 shiplord kirel

With the Pakistan connection to the Mumbai assault now all but proven, this could get very ugly very fast. At the very least, there will be anti-Muslim riots. At the very worst...

Is Zardari capable of this?

re: #173 Wyatt Earp

He was also to proud (and ignorant) to realize the Soviets and the Allies were beating his tail on a two-front war.

But, he had more control over his books.

44 hours -- this is STILL going on
[Link: www.ndtv.com...]

terrorists in Taj, massive explosion reported Nariman house, gun battles, Taj hotel on fire again

re: #174 CapeCoddah

Yeah, saw that, but, well trained troops should be able to carry out the mission, I would think. Although, the lack of leadership could pose an issue.

I was wrong. It seems only one was killed--No. 169.

#158

"These bungling fools seem to be conducting this operation as if it was a reaction to some kind of large scale conventional military occupation by an invading army, rather than an infestation by a few bloodthirsty little pricks who need to be quickly overwhelmed and terminated within a few minutes."

All the analysis I've read about this--except for the usual anti-Bush campaigners-- believe this to be in fact a very large scale operation. And it is an invading army, albeit one that is practicing unconventional warfare. This was carefully planned, financed and implemented and not by a few "bloodthirsty little pricks" acting randomly. The sooner the world understands that global jihad is well funded, strategically conceived and intended to destroy "Crusaders and Jews" (read bin Laden's statements," the sooner it will be treated as the war it really is.

re: #175 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, but I don't know anything else about it. Haven't had time to go back and vacuum for facts.

That would mean there was a lot of planning behind this.

re: #184 undhimmicratic

#158

"These bungling fools seem to be conducting this operation as if it was a reaction to some kind of large scale conventional military occupation by an invading army, rather than an infestation by a few bloodthirsty little pricks who need to be quickly overwhelmed and terminated within a few minutes."

All the analysis I've read about this--except for the usual anti-Bush campaigners-- believe this to be in fact a very large scale operation. And it is an invading army, albeit one that is practicing unconventional warfare. This was carefully planned, financed and implemented and not by a few "bloodthirsty little pricks" acting randomly. The sooner the world understands that global jihad is well funded, strategically conceived and intended to destroy "Crusaders and Jews" (read bin Laden's statements," the sooner it will be treated as the war it really is.

And the sooner the Left realizes that the Islamists want them just as dead as us, we'll be able to make some real strides!

re: #176 2senseplain

IBN is reporting a massive explosion with major damage to the building

Be advised, IBN's reporters are afflicted with severe, congenital, hyperventilation. I'm watching their videos. These idiots are sensationalizing their coverage. It's bullshit.

re: #180 MandyManners

Is Zardari capable of this?

Probably not Zardari himself, but the real question is whether he can control ISI and other rogue elements. My answer would be no.

re: #188 shiplord kirel

Probably not Zardari himself, but the real question is whether he can control ISI and other rogue elements. My answer would be no.

Was Musharraf?

Am I the only one who'd rather listen to Susan Estrich than some of the reporters/announcers on IBN?

re: #190 MandyManners

Am I the only one who'd rather listen to Susan Estrich than some of the reporters/announcers on IBN?

Nope!

re: #185 MandyManners

That would mean there was a lot of planning behind this.

Absolutely! My gut says, we're going to be shocked as details come out.

re: #190 MandyManners

Am I the only one who'd rather listen to Susan Estrich than some of the reporters/announcers on IBN?

LOL!

Good morning!

Another day, another opportunity to boycott & deny badly-needed revenue to various business I hate: CBS, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Citibank, Caribou Coffee, Miller, Tyson.

And the same incompetence, naivete, bungling and show-boating are on display at Suwannapoom Airport as Thailand slides up to 8PM...

G'night, Lizardia... I've gotta work tomorrow, thank goodness!

re: #190 MandyManners

Am I the only one who'd rather listen to Susan Estrich than some of the reporters/announcers on IBN?

To all ... my thoughts are up in #155 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #195 Karridine

And the same incompetence, naivete, bungling and show-boating are on display at Suwannapoom Airport as Thailand slides up to 8PM...

G'night, Lizardia... I've gotta work tomorrow, thank goodness!

Take care. Be safe.

Thanks, pre-Boomer!

Barring a coup, or VERY widespread conflagration, we're safe for the nonce...

re: #191 Wyatt Earp

Nope!

It's beyond nasal.

re: #189 MandyManners

Was Musharraf?

Basically no, but Mushy was less beholden to political elements that would be affiliated with the rogues. With less need for support from their friends and fronts, he could afford to keep a little more pressure on them. It was barely enough and Zardari does not have even that advantage.

re: #192 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Absolutely! My gut says, we're going to be shocked as details come out.

This ain't no Richard Reid.

Nariman House 7 hostages safe

[Link: www.ndtv.com...]

re: #199 MandyManners

It's beyond nasal.

It's like Millhouse from The Simpsons is calling the action.

re: #196 pre-Boomer Marine brat

To all ... my thoughts are up in #155 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's not so much what they say but, how they sound.

bbiab

Good morning.

Look for a fairly "nothing" day on the market with very light trading and a noon close.

The futures are down slightly, the Nikkei was up 1.66% and the Hang Seng was up 2.48%

I'm hearing anecdotal reports o Chicago radio that many mall parking lots are at capacity this morning with bargain hunters. But I also heard one lady interviewed say it only took 10 minutes to check out this morning, instead of the usual hour.

No way I'm going near a mall this weekend. I have a hunch there will be plenty of sales between now and Christmas for the few items I want to pick up.

terrorist now dead at chabad house no report on hostages.

re: #207 3 wood

Good morning.

Look for a fairly "nothing" day on the market with very light trading and a noon close.

The futures are down slightly, the Nikkei was up 1.66% and the Hang Seng was up 2.48%

I'm hearing anecdotal reports o Chicago radio that many mall parking lots are at capacity this morning with bargain hunters. But I also heard one lady interviewed say it only took 10 minutes to check out this morning, instead of the usual hour.

No way I'm going near a mall this weekend. I have a hunch there will be plenty of sales between now and Christmas for the few items I want to pick up.

I was coming home from Thanksgiving dinner at about 7pm last night, and there was a line outside Best Buy a football field long! The store wasn't set to open until midnight.

Cripes kids, get a life!

re: #188 shiplord kirel

Probably not Zardari himself, but the real question is whether he can control ISI and other rogue elements. My answer would be no.

I believe Zardari just shut down the political intelligence arm of the ISI and moved it under civilian control.

Nariman House may be secured!
Commandos coming out with big smiles.

re: #184 undhimmicratic

#158

"These bungling fools seem to be conducting this operation as if it was a reaction to some kind of large scale conventional military occupation by an invading army, rather than an infestation by a few bloodthirsty little pricks who need to be quickly overwhelmed and terminated within a few minutes."

All the analysis I've read about this--except for the usual anti-Bush campaigners-- believe this to be in fact a very large scale operation. And it is an invading army, albeit one that is practicing unconventional warfare. This was carefully planned, financed and implemented and not by a few "bloodthirsty little pricks" acting randomly. The sooner the world understands that global jihad is well funded, strategically conceived and intended to destroy "Crusaders and Jews" (read bin Laden's statements," the sooner it will be treated as the war it really is.

Oh, well if this was a very large scale operation by an invading army then I will withdraw my criticism. And I will also eat my hat.
BTW my comment was not anti-Bush or otherwise politically motivated, and your suggestion to the contrary is silly.

re: #177 SFGoth

He was quite an avid reader and although, thankfully, his ego got the better of him, he was also quite technically adroit with military technology for the most part. I'm not going to defendn him, certainly, but no point in being inaccurate.

Franz Liebkind: Hitler... there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!

The Producers 1968

re: #210 wahabicorridor

I believe Zardari just shut down the political intelligence arm of the ISI and moved it under civilian control.

I'll believe that he has the actually power (ability) to do that ... uh ... about 5 years after I see proof of it.

re: #211 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Nariman House may be secured!
Commandos coming out with big smiles.

Confirmed by CNN.

I wouldn't be too quick to judge the Indians on this, plenty of time to critique after we know the facts. If only the bad guys are left they may be very carefully dispatching them so as not to loose officers. Also there may be classic hostage situations in play that warrant a "time is on your side" approach. I think any targets, i.e. Americans, Brits, and Jews have probably already been killed by the terrorists but they may be holding others that may be saved.

re: #216 Rancher

I wouldn't be too quick to judge the Indians on this, plenty of time to critique after we know the facts. If only the bad guys are left they may be very carefully dispatching them so as not to loose officers. Also there may be classic hostage situations in play that warrant a "time is on your side" approach. I think any targets, i.e. Americans, Brits, and Jews have probably already been killed by the terrorists but they may be holding others that may be saved.

Our SWAT is the same way. Use the time. You have all the time in the world.

re: #209 Wyatt Earp

I was coming home from Thanksgiving dinner at about 7pm last night, and there was a line outside Best Buy a football field long! The store wasn't set to open until midnight.

Cripes kids, get a life!

Yes, our guests for dinner yesterday told us they drove by the local Best Buy on their way to our house (about 2pm) and there were people camping out in front of that store.

re: #186 Wyatt Earp

And the sooner the Left realizes that the Islamists want them just as dead as us, we'll be able to make some real strides!

Right on. But criticism of the Indian response or calling the terrorists a bunch of little pricks is not, I hope, a left or right issue.

re: #214 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'll believe that he has the actually power (ability) to do that ... uh ... about 5 years after I see proof of it.

FWIW
Pakistani ISI political wing disbanded

MULTAN: The political wing of the Inter-Services Intelligence has been disbanded, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi told reporters in Multan on Sunday, adding that the army is performing its duties well.

“The ISI is a precious national institution and wants to focus on counterterrorism activities,” APP quoted him as saying.

gotta hop

re: #209 Wyatt Earp

I was coming home from Thanksgiving dinner at about 7pm last night, and there was a line outside Best Buy a football field long! The store wasn't set to open until midnight.

Cripes kids, get a life!

Isn't it good news? People are spending money.

re: #221 MandyManners

Isn't it good news? People are spending money.

Yes, but I don't put up a tent outside of Walmart every time I want to spend money. The stores will still be there the next morning.

In other news, the New York Knicks need to declare bankruptcy and close:

Report: Marbury's second refusal to play will lead to his departure

Report: Marbury's second refusal to play will lead to his departure

Stephon Marbury will soon either be ordered to stay home indefinitely or be released by the New York Knicks, a source told the New York Daily News.

Marbury again declined to play Wednesday night against the Pistons, the second time he had done so in six days. The same source told the Daily News that Knicks coach Mike D'Antoni considered sending Marbury home that night.

Marbury makes $20.8 million this year to play a game and he is refusing to show up and play. The General Manager of the team went home to be with his family for the Holiday and did not deal with this.

I hope the Knicks fold.

Rancher and Wyatt -- I agree. The key is information. When hostages or others might be endangered, don't go in with fangs bared, hell-for-leather.

/but it sure as hell DOES make for some exciting Hollywood movies

/which is probably where some of us are getting our concept of tactics

re: #221 MandyManners

Isn't it good news? People are spending money.

Mixed bag, could be just credit cards that they default on, plus the buying could then drop off to nothing. But something tells me there will be sales next week too.

I know some stores around Chicago opened up at 12:01 last night.

I'm hearing on the radio that gunfire is still going on inside the besieged Jewish Center in India.

re: #210 wahabicorridor

I believe Zardari just shut down the political intelligence arm of the ISI and moved it under civilian control.

re: #226 3 wood

I'm hearing on the radio that gunfire is still going on inside the besieged Jewish Center in India.

The NSG says they have to get one more floor.

re: #221 MandyManners

Isn't it good news? People are spending money.

Don't get me wrong: It's great news, but camping out to save a few bucks? I just think that's a little weird.

re: #224 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Rancher and Wyatt -- I agree. The key is information. When hostages or others might be endangered, don't go in with fangs bared, hell-for-leather.

/but it sure as hell DOES make for some exciting Hollywood movies

/which is probably where some of us are getting our concept of tactics

Yeah, I would hope Philly SWAT doesn't use Speed as its point of reference for terrorist bombers. :)

Stealth and time is the best option in Hostage situations. Rushing things leads to screwing the pooch far to often. A well planned silent surgical insertion of Special operations troops is best. Especially if said troops can get in and terminate the situation before the Hostiles are even aware that things have gone wrong for them.

Rustler

re: #207 3 wood

No way I'm going near a mall this weekend. I have a hunch there will be plenty of sales between now and Christmas for the few items I want to pick up.

Same here! In fact, we avoid places like department stores as much as humanly possible from Thanksgiving until about the middle of January -- and early morning weekdays when we absolutely must go.

IBN anchor talking to IBN's reporter-on-the-scene, talking about how that man has been standing post outside Nariman House for three straight days and nights!
*Gasp*
*paliptations*
*Swoon*
*skyrockets*
*PULITZER PRIZE!*

/*spit*

re: #230 Rancher

Stealth and time is the best option in Hostage situations. Rushing things leads to screwing the pooch far to often. A well planned silent surgical insertion of Special operations troops is best. Especially if said troops can get in and terminate the situation before the Hostiles are even aware that things have gone wrong for them.

Rustler

With all the news networks showing live video with commentary from on-the-ground reporters, I don't think they have the whole stealth thing going for them.

re: #227 gclaghorn

Yes. Apparently so.

re: #232 pre-Boomer Marine brat

IBN anchor talking to IBN's reporter-on-the-scene, talking about how that man has been standing post outside Nariman House for three straight days and nights!
*Gasp*
*paliptations*
*Swoon*
*skyrockets*
*PULITZER PRIZE!*

/*spit*

What a brave, brave soul. One can hardly imagine how hard it's been for him to stand there for days on end talking, and talking, and talking some more.

/scoff

re: #235 gclaghorn

What a brave, brave soul. One can hardly imagine how hard it's been for him to stand there for days on end talking, and talking, and talking some more.

/scoff

I can believe that his vocal cords must be made of spring steel. I see evidence of genetic cloning in these *ssholes.

Illinois Governor wants previous Governor pardoned:

Blagojevich supports freeing ex-Gov. Ryan early

CHICAGO -- Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich is adding his voice to those calling for freedom for convicted former Gov. George Ryan. Ryan has served a year of his 6 1/2-year sentence for corruption charges. Blagojevich said Thursday that he’d like President Bush to show Ryan compassion by letting him out of prison early.

If Bush did commute Ryan’s sentence, the former governor’s conviction would stand and he would still lose his state pension.

Ryan sold his office when he was the State Secretary, selling drivers licenses to anybody with enough cash. As a result, an incompetant truck driver got a license and killed a large family in a very bad accident.

I say let Ryan out when that family comes back to life.

Blagojevich himself is under a federal corruption investigation. We have 4 of our last 7 Governors be indicted and several go to jail.

Obama got elected to State office by having the media attack his opponents to the point where they withdrew and he ran basically unopposed.

Ain't politics in Illinois grand.

re: #236 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I can believe that his vocal cords must be made of spring steel. I see evidence of genetic cloning in these *ssholes.

They're cylons!

Someone should shove an 18-wheeler's spare tire into the mouth of the IBN reporter who's interviewing the police chief.

re: #222 gclaghorn

Yes, but I don't put up a tent outside of Walmart every time I want to spend money. The stores will still be there the next morning.

LOL, My oldest hinted that she would have liked me to drive 50 miles, at 3am, to stand in line at a WalMart to get her a TV she wants. She has to work early on weekdays. I had to pull out the old "Evil Eye". She did not finish her sentence.

re: #233 gclaghorn

Not that hard to sneak in a properly trained team even under the newsies radar. It's not like they are paparazzi who are in general the more likely among journalists to notice something may be happening. There isn't 360 field of view for the journalists around said areas. The news cameras might make the situation more difficult but they hardly make it impossible.

Rustler

re: #222 gclaghorn

Yes, but I don't put up a tent outside of Walmart every time I want to spend money. The stores will still be there the next morning.

The sales will be different at many stores today. Besides, it's a kitschy tradition.

OT: I got bored and decided to test out the JibJab ElfYourself video maker.

Season's Greetings from the Obama Administration

I imagine this is what Obama plans to do in the Situation Room on Friday nights.

re: #225 3 wood

Mixed bag, could be just credit cards that they default on, plus the buying could then drop off to nothing. But something tells me there will be sales next week too.

I know some stores around Chicago opened up at 12:01 last night.

Ooh. I hadn't thought about the credit card angle.

re: #242 MandyManners

The sales will be different at many stores today. Besides, it's a kitschy tradition.

Mrs. hoopster is shopping with the Amex card this morning.
Should I be worried?
:)
Morning everyone

re: #228 Wyatt Earp

Don't get me wrong: It's great news, but camping out to save a few bucks? I just think that's a little weird.

It shows confidence in the economy right now, and we need that.

re: #242 MandyManners

Loves me some kitsch! By the way, imagine the presses "No one lined up for Black Friday this morning" fear mongering.

Dabu Doree, Dabu Doree, welcome Christmas time is here...

re: #245 HoosierHoops

Mrs. hoopster is shopping with the Amex card this morning.
Should I be worried?
:)
Morning everyone

No.

re: #247 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Loves me some kitsch! By the way, imagine the presses "No one lined up for Black Friday this morning" fear mongering.

Dabu Doree, Dabu Doree, welcome Christmas time is here...

I've finally accepted that Christmas is just another engine driving capitalism.

I'm just wondering if Black Friday will actually be black Friday for a lot of these retailers this year.
Rustler

Gonna' get some tea. bbiab

re: #250 Rancher

I'm just wondering if Black Friday will actually be black Friday for a lot of these retailers this year.
Rustler

/Racist! :)

At Nariman House there were scenes of jubliant cheering -- everyone thought it was over -- but now (for the hundredth time?) discover, "oh, no, it's not over yet.Big misunderstanding.."

re: #250 Rancher

I'm just wondering if Black Friday will actually be black Friday for a lot of these retailers this year.
Rustler

I went last year for the first time..there we six of us..Went out for breakfast at 4am then went shopping..I spent way too much.
Think I'll just hang out and watch ESPN, Drink yummy coffee and chat with you fine lizards..It's better this way.

re: #252 Wyatt Earp

But this is like the one time Black is used to denote something good in a saying : P.

Rustler

We're all spending money today whether we realize it or not. Yokels are charging things they can't afford, credit card companies go bankrupt, the goofaman gives them money to make up for it and that money comes from taxpayers like me who don't everextend their credit. Stealth communism.

Did I spell Dabu Doree correct?

I think Obama is getting sent a loud and clear message:

Russia to Help Venezuela Develop Nuclear Power Program

CARACAS, Venezuela — Russian President Dmitry Medvedev agreed to help start a nuclear energy program in Venezuela and said Moscow is willing to participate in a socialist trade bloc in Latin America led by President Hugo Chavez.

Medvedev used his visit to Venezuela — the first by a Russian president — to extend Moscow's reach into Latin America and deepen trade and military ties. Chavez denied trying to provoke the United States, but he welcomed Russia's growing presence in Latin America as a reflection of declining U.S. influence.

Chavez and Medvedev planned to visit a Russian destroyer docked in a Venezuelan port on Thursday. The arrival of Russian warships this week for training exercises with Venezuela's navy was the first deployment of its kind in the Caribbean since the Cold War.

I'm sure though that if the Messiah just talks to them and understands them, there will be no problem.

Heavy new fire at Nariman House and outside.

[Link: ibnlive.in.com...]

re: #253 J.S.

At Nariman House there were scenes of jubliant cheering -- everyone thought it was over -- but now (for the hundredth time?) discover, "oh, no, it's not over yet.Big misunderstanding.."

People are milling in the street, cheering, and the police commissioner reports that "intermittent exchange of firing still going on" .

Hm, something tells me that one would at least hear the shots then...

The War on Mumbai has gone very foggy if you ask me...

I train our Correctional Officers and CERT team, (Prison SWAT), that we will not assault a hostage situation unless hostages are either being raped or killed. And sometimes not even in case of rape if there is no quick way to assault the hostage takers as was the case in Arizona. Also relevant here is the media. We will not allow media anywhere close to an inmate imitated crises because they can use the media to gain intelligence. The media actually got an officer killed in this Ohio riot.

Yeah I did the black Friday thing once me and a couple friends went camped out a store each and picked up each others lists. People looked at me a bit strange as I towed a flat cart with 2 27 inch t.v's, a bed, and a 3 foot pile of random toys etc to the register at walmart.