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Muslim-Christian Carnage in Nigeria

World | Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:22:38 am PST

Following a disputed local election in Jos, Nigeria, fighting between Christian and Muslim gangs has left at least 400 people dead.

JOS, Nigeria (Reuters) – Residents took more bodies to the main mosque in the Nigerian city of Jos on Sunday, bringing the death toll from two days of clashes between Muslim and Christian gangs to about 400 people.

Rival ethnic and religious gangs have burned homes, shops, mosques and churches in fighting triggered by a disputed local election in the city at the crossroads of Nigeria’s Muslim north and Christian south. It is the country’s worst unrest for years.

Murtala Sani Hashim, who has been registering the dead as they are brought to the mosque, told Reuters he had listed 367 bodies. Ten corpses wrapped in blankets, two of them infants, lay behind him awaiting burial rites.

A doctor at one of main city hospitals said he had received 25 corpses and 154 injured since the unrest began. “Gunshot wounds, machete injuries, those are the two main types,” Dr Aboi Madaki of the Jos University Teaching Hospital told Reuters.

Reuters Video

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277 comments

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1 JammieWearingFool  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:25:16am

And here with Obama's election I thought there would be joy around the world.

Sigh.

2 Alouette  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:25:32am

Wow. Christians fighting back.

3 Blackacre  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:26:55am

re: #1 JammieWearingFool

And here with Obama's election I thought there would be joy around the world.

Sigh.

Looks like the didn't get the memo.

4 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:27:01am

Wow, that Joe Biden really called this, huh?

5 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:27:39am

Over an election? No. The cause of this is not an election.

6 Syrah  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:28:44am

I find Reuters reporting which suggest an equal participation of "rival Gangs" hard to believe.

7 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:28:55am

re: #5 MandyManners

Over an election? No. The cause of this is not an election.

Absolutely correct. Something bigger there.

8 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:29:27am

My God, does it ever end?

9 akak  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:29:59am

re: #8 NYCHardhat

My God, does it ever end?

not in any of our lifetimes.

10 pegcity  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:31:17am

Turn the other cheek dosent seem to be working very well for Chrisitans these days

11 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:31:19am

re: #7 Wyatt Earp

Absolutely correct. Something bigger there.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder what it is.

12 tappin52  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:31:38am

You know, I'm beginning to think that Islam is not a religion of peace.

13 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:31:47am

This is the sort of thing that makes me glad to be an American- that we have a long history of peaceful resolutions to political disputes.

14 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:32:00am

re: #8 NYCHardhat

My God, does it ever end?

Hope it's not the beginning of the end...maybe change will miraculously occur.

15 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:32:33am

re: #12 tappin52

You know, I'm beginning to think that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Ditto that!

16 FrogMarch  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:33:20am

Must be the Christians fault.

/LLL

17 JammieWearingFool  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:33:41am

Jos, Nigeria: A community that needs organizing.

18 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:33:45am

/I'm beginning to think I am an infidel.

19 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:33:58am

re: #11 MandyManners

Hmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder what it is.

Hold on. Let me put on my thinking cap. Or in this case, my "obvious" cap. :)

20 chihuahua  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:34:02am

Where's all the Hopeyness and Changeyness we were promised if Obama was elected?

21 Rancher  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:34:03am

I had to leave the dating thread since Lizardettes are way too picky, but this...crazy. Isn't there a functioning country on that damn continent?

22 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:35:05am

re: #21 Rancher

I had to leave the dating thread since Lizardettes are way too picky, but this...crazy. Isn't there a functioning country on that damn continent?

Apparently not....

23 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:35:15am

re: #21 Rancher

I had to leave the dating thread since Lizardettes are way too picky, but this...crazy. Isn't there a functioning country on that damn continent?

I wouldn't say they are picky.

24 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:35:19am

re: #16 FrogMarch

Must be the Christians fault.

/LLL

...or maybe Nigeria's branch of ACORN?

25 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:35:50am

Sorry y'all but I can't bring myself to watch the video - having too nice a morning to see that.

26 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:35:57am

re: #14 Ron Shaw

Hope it's not the beginning of the end...maybe change will miraculously occur.

The Bombay massacre is a wake up call to Obama and the liberal west that accommodation to radical Islam is not an option. There is no compromising with those on a mission from Allah.

27 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:36:01am

re: #23 NYCHardhat

I wouldn't say they are picky.

Finicky?

28 Rancher  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:36:15am

re: #13 Sharmuta

This is the sort of thing that makes me glad to be an American- that we have a long history of peaceful resolutions to political disputes.


that don't involve shopping.

29 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:36:34am

re: #13 Sharmuta

This is the sort of thing that makes me glad to be an American- that we have a long history of peaceful resolutions to political disputes.

True. The worst we get are clueless protesters, papier-mache puppets, and ridiculous commentary from the MSM. Machetes don't come into play.

30 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:36:48am

re: #26 LoFlyer

The Bombay massacre is a wake up call to Obama and the liberal west that accommodation to radical Islam is not an option. There is no compromising with those on a mission from Allah.

Except that they wont get it, they will think more appeasement is needed....

31 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:37:00am

Evidently, some cannot handle 'change' in politics or religious tolerance, peacefully.

32 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:37:06am

re: #27 doriangrey

Finicky?

Selective. Just like all women should be.

33 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:37:21am

re: #13 Sharmuta
Big ding up for that - its so true and I'm afraid we all take it for granted.

34 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:37:36am

re: #7 Wyatt Earp

Africa is really complicated. This isn't just political or religious. There are regional, tribal, and ethnic rivalries at work too.

35 Sorge  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:38:03am

re: #5 MandyManners

Over an election? No. The cause of this is not an election.

Mandy, you are looking at "election" through your western eyes.

This was an election at a "crossroads" between the Muslim north and the Christian south. Elections matter there in very tangible ways; who gets to teach your children, what they are taught, to which ethnic group the precious municipal jobs go, etc.

Elections in a "border" town in Nigeria are small acts of war.

36 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:38:06am

re: #2 Alouette

Wow. Christians fighting back.

It's horrible genocide, the majority of the casualites are Muslim, do dead muslim babies constitute "fighting back?"

37 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:38:34am

re: #26 LoFlyer
Do you seriously think that that's what Obama now thinks? He's done nothing but talk his whole career, he ain't gonna change now.

38 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:38:49am

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Africa is really complicated. This isn't just political or religious. There are regional, tribal, and ethnic rivalries at work too.

Oh, I know. It makes the Middle East look like Hawaii.

39 opinionated  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:39:10am

Muslims against Jews. Muslims against Christians. Muslims against Hindus.

The utter futility of attempting to reason with the barbarians is evidenced by the fact that this is what they do to their own- to their family.

Acid Attacks

The real emerging terrorist threat for Pakistani women is being disfigured by acid, often thrown on them by their own husbands.

[Link: video.nytimes.com...]

What chance to Infidels have?

40 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:39:34am

re: #26 LoFlyer

The Bombay massacre is a wake up call to Obama and the liberal west that accommodation to radical Islam is not an option. There is no compromising with those on a mission from Allah.

I honestly think Obama and the liberal west will remain in REM repose. The call will go unanswered.

41 Sorge  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:39:59am

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Africa is really complicated. This isn't just political or religious. There are regional, tribal, and ethnic rivalries at work too.

Nigeria is not too complicated: whatever their other differences, Muslims against non-Muslims is a rather common occurrence.

42 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:40:16am

re: #32 NYCHardhat

Selective. Just like all women should be.

Ahhh, selective..... I know some selective women.... I love them to pieces cause their all my age and still single.... (or divorced)... They are a lot of fun... We date frequently and I never have to worry about one of them wanting to get married or pregnant..... ;)

43 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:40:44am

re: #36 Thanos
OK, confess my ignorance again but are you saying that "Christians" are engaging in the mass murdering of Muslims?
And if so, why?!

44 Rancher  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:40:57am

re: #23 NYCHardhat

I wouldn't say they are picky.

Toilet seats down, clean restrooms, don't like Krystals, have to pick 'em up for the date, won't split the bill, don't like control freaks, don't understand the importance of my car's paint job, man how do you please such women?

45 Sorge  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:41:01am

re: #36 Thanos

It's horrible genocide, the majority of the casualites are Muslim, do dead muslim babies constitute "fighting back?"

Be glad we do not yet have to make that choice.

46 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:41:43am

re: #40 Ron Shaw
Unanswered? They won't even hear the ring of the phone.

47 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:41:56am

re: #42 doriangrey

Ahhh, selective..... I know some selective women.... I love them to pieces cause their all my age and still single.... (or divorced)... They are a lot of fun... We date frequently and I never have to worry about one of them wanting to get married or pregnant..... ;)

Better than the mattress maidens that makeup my generation.

48 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:42:14am

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Indeed. Some of the issues can be traced back to colonialism and the arbitrary drawing of boundaries that didn't reflect tribal affiliations.

That's how you got longstanding enemies like the Hutus and Tutsis to be lumped together in Congo, and you could find similar problems elsewhere.

Add kleptocrats, dictatorships, and lots of bad decisions by national leaders throughout the continent, and you have one failed state or near failed state after another.

49 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:42:43am

re: #47 NYCHardhat

Better than the mattress maidens that makeup my generation.

Do I dare ask what a "mattress maiden" is?

50 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:43:36am

re: #44 Rancher

Toilet seats down, clean restrooms, don't like Krystals, have to pick 'em up for the date, won't split the bill, don't like control freaks, don't understand the importance of my car's paint job, man how do you please such women?

I will admit its a bit much, but those are small requests. Just wait until you get the one that says her engagement ring HAS to be 2 carets at least. I said goodbye to that one!

51 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:43:49am

re: #47 NYCHardhat
"re: #42 doriangrey

Ahhh, selective..... I know some selective women.... I love them to pieces cause their all my age and still single.... (or divorced)... They are a lot of fun... We date frequently and I never have to worry about one of them wanting to get married or pregnant..... ;)

Better than the mattress maidens that makeup my generation."

Uh, what generation would that be (how old are you?)?

52 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:44:13am

re: #43 realwest

The outcome of the election, I really don't know -- but I'm not on either side of this, as the mayhem seems to be occurring mainly against Muslims, and it's uncontrolled. So far in my minimal surf I haven't found any Christian dead, so let's all just be careful before we make pronouncements, I'll admit I certainly don't know enough about this situation to proclaim anything. I think everyone needs to dig into this a bit more before exhibiting either pride or dudgeon.

53 opinionated  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:44:16am

Christian and Jews everywhere should fight back, because,

It is not sufficient for them to kill you:

From India:

Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood," one doctor said.

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.

[Link: www.rediff.com...]

54 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:44:34am

Viva Africa!

Happy holidays, here's your machete. Let's get those other guys!

55 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:44:54am

re: #49 doriangrey

Do I dare ask what a "mattress maiden" is?

A woman who is not too selective in regards to a mating partner. Call me crazy, but I want a classy woman. Not the town bicycle.

56 96RoadKing  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:45:01am

Maybe a new perspective, but I don't think this is so much Muslim against Christian as it is barbarism against the weak. Armed gangs aren't so much attacking other armed rival gangs as they are slaughtering those unable to defend themselves. The MSM is just pointing the finger at religion. I think the gangs are garbing themselves in the trappings of religion just to provide themselves a justification.

57 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:45:17am

non-Muslim = 'surplus population'

58 pat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:45:23am

At least the Christians of Nigeria are beginning to defend themselves. Christianity was never meant to be a surrender pact.

59 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:45:24am

re: #53 opinionated
Oh good Lord.

60 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:45:42am

re: #51 realwest

"re: #42 doriangrey

Ahhh, selective..... I know some selective women.... I love them to pieces cause their all my age and still single.... (or divorced)... They are a lot of fun... We date frequently and I never have to worry about one of them wanting to get married or pregnant..... ;)

Better than the mattress maidens that makeup my generation."

Uh, what generation would that be (how old are you?)?

I'm just under 30.

61 Sorge  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:46:34am

re: #48 lawhawk

Indeed. Some of the issues can be traced back to colonialism and the arbitrary drawing of boundaries that didn't reflect tribal affiliations.

So, do you mean the Tutus and the Hutsies had a hard time finding and killing each other before colonialism? Blaming on colonialism centuries--or millennia--or tribal warfare is not only a mistake but a smear.

62 Ron Shaw  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:46:55am

re: #46 realwest

Unanswered? They won't even hear the ring of the phone.

Better stated!

63 Rancher  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:47:15am

re: #48 lawhawk

That's how you got longstanding enemies like the Hutus and Tutsis to be lumped together in Congo, and you could find similar problems elsewhere.


I have heard Belgium had allot to do with the Hutu Tutsi problem.

64 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:47:28am

re: #58 pat

Is it defense or attack? 350 dead at mosques, no reported Christian casualties.

65 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:47:49am

re: #21 Rancher

I had to leave the dating thread since Lizardettes are way too picky, but this...crazy. Isn't there a functioning country on that damn continent?


They should be picky... which woman wants to go out with a man whose breath smells bad, and he wears dirty drawers? Good grief.

66 debutaunt  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:47:50am

re: #39 opinionated

Muslim men throwing acid in their wives faces. How long until some rogue Muslim wife does an acid-bobbit to her husband?

67 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:47:57am

re: #52 Thanos
OK, I can understand that. I don't know enough to have any sort of informed opinion and would never take the MSM's word for it.
I will say, though, based on my limited knowledge of this, it doesn't seem to be as much religion on religion as gang on gang or gang on helpless civilians.

68 pat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:49:25am

re: #64 Thanos

Is it defense or attack? 350 dead at mosques, no reported Christian casualties.

I think this follows 20 years of retreat, torture, rape, forced marriages, slavery, and church burnings by Muslims against Christians in Nigeria.

69 Rancher  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:49:33am

re: #50 NYCHardhat

I will admit its a bit much, but those are small requests. Just wait until you get the one that says her engagement ring HAS to be 2 carets at least. I said goodbye to that one!


Roger that! I'm being facetious of course, all of the Lizardettes seem like wonderful ladies.

70 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:49:38am

re: #60 NYCHardhat
WOW - I'm surprised just because of all the STD's there are around now.
When I was your age, there was no AIDs and Herpes was a relatively new disease on the scene and there were a lot of mattressmaidens - and men to go with them.

71 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:50:56am

re: #10 pegcity

Turn the other cheek dosent seem to be working very well for Chrisitans these days

sell your cloak and buy a sword

72 JohnSteele  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:51:03am

Yep, nothing says Nigerian massacre like a Florida orange juice commercial :-)

73 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:51:33am
74 NYCHardhat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:51:51am

re: #70 realwest

WOW - I'm surprised just because of all the STD's there are around now.
When I was your age, there was no AIDs and Herpes was a relatively new disease on the scene and there were a lot of mattressmaidens - and men to go with them.

Its a living hell.

75 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:51:58am

re: #69 Rancher
Uh, a word to the wise my friend: if you're being facetious with the lizardettes, it's ALWAYS a good idea to make that as clear as you can and as soon as you can.
LOL!

76 Sorge  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:52:13am

A little Rwanda history for those who have bought the anti-colonialist propaganda:

History, not Propaganda

77 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:52:44am

re: #48 lawhawk
Hutus and Tutsis are going at it again... the Congo, Uganda... let us hope that we do not have another Rwanda.
Africa is beautiful... but there is so much pain, so little education... so much famine, disease... it is heart breaking.

78 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:53:08am
79 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:53:15am

re: #75 realwest

Uh, a word to the wise my friend: if you're being facetious with the lizardettes, it's ALWAYS a good idea to make that as clear as you can and as soon as you can.
LOL!

ROTFLMAO..... Oh yea, hell hath no furry like a pissed off lizardette.....

80 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:53:22am

re: #56 96RoadKing

That's an interpretation worth exploring.

81 pat  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:54:13am

re: #77 shanec99

Hutus and Tutsis are going at it again... the Congo, Uganda... let us hope that we do not have another Rwanda.
Africa is beautiful... but there is so much pain, so little education... so much famine, disease... it is heart breaking.

The genocide in the Congo is every bit as bad as Rwanda. It has generated into sexual mutilation of both sexes in public and cannibalism.

82 Opinionated  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:54:15am

Obama and Hillary Clinton will cure the World.

We are so screwed.

83 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:54:20am

re: #53 opinionated

Islam delnda est

84 Alouette  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:54:52am

re: #73 ploome hineni

seems that ALL bodies are being taken to the mosque

and it would not be the first time muslims took dead babies and accused Christians of killing them

In this case, there are no Jews around to blame.

85 96RoadKing  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:55:53am

re: #77 shanec99
From what I understand, there are teachers that try to educate, but they're the first targets of the barbarians. I had a Kenyan friend that dedicated himself to teaching. The story is that he was killed around 20 years ago in his classroom (that may or may not have been an exageration). RIP

86 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:56:03am
87 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:56:17am

Here are the glorious San Gabriel Mountains of California in the morning sunlight. The Towercam, Pacific time zone.

"... paradise is all around us and we do not understand."

— Thomas Merton, the guy in the avatar.

88 Opinionated  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:56:43am

re: #66 debutaunt

Muslim men throwing acid in their wives faces. How long until some rogue Muslim wife does an acid-bobbit to her husband?

It might have happened sometime. We will never know. Nor will we know of the terrible things immediately done to her to remind the other women that in Islam they are chattel to be done with as a man pleases.

89 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:56:44am
90 OrzBorz  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:59:03am

Haven't seen this on the news--why?

91 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 9:59:13am

re: #53 opinionated

Christian and Jews everywhere should fight back, because,

It is not sufficient for them to kill you:

From India:


[Link: www.rediff.com...]

To paraphrase Samuel to Saul- Be merciful when you need to be, and by the samer token, be as ruthless as the situation calls for. . .

My own experience with Chabad has made this situation pure torture to contemplate. I have no doubt that the Rabbi was forced to watch his wife endure the horror described, and she also had to watch as well, the covering of her body with the tallit. . .tender and loving to her to the very end. . .

My family and I were cared for, our spirits restored by these wonderful people, and the pain I feel for those touched by this directly is only matched by the pain I feel every time this evil is discounted. . .and worse yet, blames them for their own horrific deaths. . .

Dayan Emes. . .

92 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:00:23am

re: #82 Opinionated

Obama and Hillary Clinton will cure the World.

We are so screwed.

Obama doesn't give a fuck about JEWS. . .only dead ones are any good now that the American Jewish sheeple have elected him. . .

93 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:00:39am

re: #25 realwest

I think we all wish we could withhold having to press the vid button.
That The caption and the article are enough. ...
But, We have been lied to so many times by the press.
Now, we have to see it to believe the stories.

94 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:00:41am

re: #81 pat

The genocide in the Congo is every bit as bad as Rwanda. It has generated into sexual mutilation of both sexes in public and cannibalism.


I met a woman in Nairobi who works for a NGO in the Congo, she was on the way to Meyotte in the Comoros for vacation. What she described is horrific.
You would cry if you listened to her. She is working on a program to reduce the incidence of malnutrition... and some people just don't care. We people of the developed world care... but some people from the Congo are more concerned with attaining power and wealth. Malnourished kids are not their concern.

95 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:00:57am

re: #90 OrzBorz

Western news agencies (especially American ones) ignore everything in Africa. It's not an economically or strategically important part of the world so it just doesn't get any press.

96 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:02:00am

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Western news agencies (especially American ones) ignore everything in Africa. It's not an economically or strategically important part of the world so it just doesn't get any press.

The Sudan/Darfur situation is underreported. . .way. . .

97 VegasRick  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:02:38am

Colon (I know I misspelled it) Powell is still very proud to be an African American.

98 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:02:50am

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Of the news outlets in the States, believe it or not, MSNBC actually does a better job than anyone else, including the NYT and CNN.

99 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:02:54am

re: #93 notutopia

I think we all wish we could withhold having to press the vid button.
That The caption and the article are enough. ...
But, We have been lied to so many times by the press.
Now, we have to see it to believe the stories.

And even when we see it most of us have learned to not believe what the MSM tells us about what we are seeing.

100 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:04:14am

re: #86 ploome hineni

The pope is calling it senseless violence, so am I. If you want to continue to cheer for genocide, feel free. Some background:

In May 1999 violence erupted in Kaduna State over the succession of an Emir resulting in more than 100 deaths. In Kaduna in February-May 2000 over 1,000 people died in rioting over the introduction of criminal Shar'ia in the State. Hundreds of ethnic Hausa were killed in reprisal attacks in southeastern Nigeria. In September 2001, over 2,000 were people were killed in inter-religious rioting in Jos. In October 2001, hundred were killed and thousands displaced in communal violence that spread across the Middle-Belt states of Benue, Taraba, and Nasarawa.

In the wake of these riots, President Olusegun Obasanjo visited the state and urged Governor Makarfi to establish a peace and reconciliation committee. On October 1, 2001, President Obasanjo announced the formation of a National Security Commission to address the issue of communal violence. But Christian fears remained. To address them, the Executive Governor of the State, El Haji Ahmed Makarfi, followed a strategy of according a number of ethnic groups in the heavily Christian southern half of the state recognition as chieftaincies independent of the Muslim Emirate of Zazzau. He reinforced this political innovation—for which Middle Belt groups had long lobbied—by in effect recognizing the “customary” laws of each one of these groups and empowering the new chieftaincies to organize their own “customary” judicial systems in addition to the Islamic shari’a and state magistrate court systems. This system may lead to a certain confusion and conflict of laws cases among the three systems, but it offers the great advantage of providing Christians and animists in the new chieftaincies with an effective shield against the application of the shari’a legal code, much less its criminal elements, within their jurisdictions.

Plateau State has the highest number of displaced people as a result of clashes between Christians and Muslim communities there. The predominantly Christian Tarok farmers consider the mostly Muslim Hausa cattle herders as outsiders, and accuse them of stealing land and trying to usurp political power. These had led to the burning down of 72 villages over between 2002 and the end of 2003. More than 1,000 people were killed in sectarian clashes between Christians and Muslims in Jos, the Plateau State capital, in September 2001. Subsequently a low intensity conflict spread to the surrounding countryside, where the mainly Christian farmers clashed repeatedly with the predominantly Muslim livestock herders. Several hundred more people died in these skirmishes, which forced several thousand people to abandon their homes. Most of the clashes in Plateau have been portrayed as being between Christian and Muslim communities, but have often assumed an ethnic dimension.

By 27 April 2004 at least 20 people had died in three days of clashes between rival ethnic militias in central Plateau State. The clashes were between ethnic Tarok fighters and their Fulani rivals at Bakin Chiyawa in the Shendam district of the state. The fighting was intense, with both sides using guns, bows And arrows and machetes. The fighting was caused by a dispute over use of an area of land designated for cultivation by the agrarian Tarok and for grazing by the nomadic Fulani. Hausa fighters burned churches and killed nearly 100 people in a Tarok village. Extra armed policemen were deployed to the affected area to restore order.

In early May 2004 Nigerian security forces restored order in remote areas of central Plateau State, where sectarian violence had left scores of people dead. Calm returned to the highlands town of Telwa, as hundreds of police reinforcements arrived to quash revenge attacks by Christian ethnic-Tarok fighters against the mainly Muslim-ethnic Hausa community.

101 VegasRick  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:04:26am

re: #99 doriangrey

And even when we see it most of us have learned to not believe what the MSM tells us about what we are seeing.

Believe half of what you see and none of what you read.

102 Opinionated  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:04:33am

re: #90 OrzBorz

Haven't seen this on the news--why?

1 No Israelis involved
2 No "Palestinians" involved
3 Can't be blamed on the US Government.
4 Can't be blamed on Republicans

103 96RoadKing  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:05:20am

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Western news agencies (especially American ones) ignore everything in Africa. It's not an economically or strategically important part of the world so it just doesn't get any press.

The MSM will only cover genocide when it suits their political need. Remember how they started crying about the terror in Somalia and blaming it on Bush 41's callousness? Then there was their reporting of the genocide in Rwanda, but four years too late. And I'll never forget their horror at the genocide in Cambodia...

104 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:05:36am
105 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:06:09am

re: #86 ploome hineni

Who is outraged? There you go mindreading again. I'm saying it's senseless violence, and you don't even have a clue what's going on there as you use this as a foil to attack me.

106 FrogMarch  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:07:44am

If both sides are being slaughtered - that just means one side is fighting back.

107 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:08:21am
108 Opinionated  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:08:21am

It's kind of off topic but want an example of just how crazy this World is today. Once upon a time at least you could count on Israel to fight back against violent Islam.

Back to back headlines at Haaretz:

Qassam strikes residential area in central Sderot

Cabinet approves releasing 250 Palestinian prisoners in gesture to Abbas

109 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:08:58am

OT: An interview with Adnan Oktar

sample questions.....


What do you understand to be the difference between creationism, “old-earth” creationism and intelligent design? Which do you advocate?
....
Do you have any connections to the Discovery Institute in America?
.....
To date, how many websites have you caused to be blocked in Turkey?
....
Do you have plans to ban anyone else?
....
What do you have to say about dinosaurs? Why did Allah create their fossils?
.....
In the recent U.S. election, Sarah Palin was identified by some in the international press as a creationist. What is your position on the political situation in the U.S.?
....
Do you have any particular hopes for Barack Obama’s administration?
....
Are Darwinism and terrorism connected? (my favorite)
....
110 Syrah  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:08:59am

There is something about this riot that looks odd, like the reporting from Reuters may not be strait.

From another article.

The state’s CAN chairman, Most Rev. Ignatius Kaigama said “We were taken aback by the turn of events in Jos. We thought it was political, but from all indications it is not so. We were surprised at the way some of our churches and property were attacked and some of our faithful and Clergy killed. The attacks were carefully planned and executed. The questions that bog our minds are why were churches and Clergy attacked and killed? Why were politicians and political party offices not attacked if it were a political conflict? Why were the business premises and property of innocent civilians destroyed? We strongly feel that it was not political, but pre-meditated act under the guise of elections”.
Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) als appealled for restraint to all inohabitants of Jos, the Plateau state capital, over the recent crisis that engulfed parts of the city.

It may be that there is more to this then Reuters is reporting.

111 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:09:00am
112 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:09:06am

President Bush did a lot for Africa. His work to fund AIDS prevention and treatment, his initiative to reduce malaria by 50% in 5 years including $1.2 billion.
He established the only American base on the African continent.
Under his administration America established the US Africa Command under a Four Star General.
People may speak ill of President Bush, but he has done more for Africa than any President in recent memory.
Unfortunately, Africa does not get a lot of attention in the media, so the things he has done to alleviate poverty, encourage regional stability and eradicate disease on the continent does not get a lot of attention.
Africa will lose a serious advocate when he leaves office, Pres Elect Obama may try to do what he has done, but I am not so sure that he will be as successful on the African continent.

113 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:09:12am

The link
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]

114 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:10:02am
115 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:12:22am

re: #110 Syrah

There is something about this riot that looks odd, like the reporting from Reuters may not be strait.

From another article.

It may be that there is more to this then Reuters is reporting.

Oh, it's political all right, political is the sense that all of Islam's violent attacks are political expressions of Islams determination to conquer the entire world and set up a world wide Caliphate.

116 96RoadKing  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:13:31am

re: #104 ploome hineni

many wars are cause by increasing populations vying for the same limited resources

and in marginal countries polulations are increasing because of western medical advances and drugs, but their infrastructure is not due to unwanted cultural changes required to support larger populations

so western interference, and subsequent population growth, actually increase tension and wars

I have an issue with blaming western interference and the subsequent population growth. It's because of western 'interference' that more of the population survive to adulthood. If the local government strongmen would stop gobbling up all the wealth and let the population live in a civilization that would let them keep the fruits of their labor, their wouldn't be so many limited resources. Free people will take advantage of and be productive with whatever resources are available. If they need better roads, they'll build them; if they need more schools, they'll provide for them; if they need more food, they'll plant more crops. But they can't do that with warlords and tinpot dictators killing off the middle class every time they want to protect their thrones! You mention unwanted cultural change. My observation is that the people are merely trying to improve their lives and the lives of their children. It's the people in power who don't want things to change.

117 VegasRick  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:14:11am

re: #113 Thanos

The link
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]

"Insurgent Organizations" as a header and Muslima.com advertising on that site. They may be a bit biased.

118 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:15:01am

re: #110 Syrah

There is something about this riot that looks odd, like the reporting from Reuters may not be strait.

From another article.


It may be that there is more to this then Reuters is reporting.

We thought it was political, but from all indications it is not so. We were surprised at the way some of our churches and property were attacked and some of our faithful and Clergy killed. The attacks were carefully planned and executed. The questions that bog our minds are why were churches and Clergy attacked and killed? Why were politicians and political party offices not attacked if it were a political conflict? Why were the business premises and property of innocent civilians destroyed? We strongly feel that it was not political, but pre-meditated act under the guise of elections”.

The same week as Mumbai?

119 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:15:43am

re: #110 Syrah

Thanks for that, yes, there are Christian deaths as well. (CAN is the associated churches, not any one brand or stripe, they can be somewhat trusted to be factual.)

120 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:15:58am

re: #104 ploome hineni
Ploome... Africa has 10% of the world's population, a dispropotionate quatity of its natural resources and 20% of its land mass.

Africa is not over populated... there is more than sufficient resources to go around, the problems are myriad, the ones I see are
1. Poorly educated populations
2. Ethnic strife and tribalism
3. Maldistributed resources
4. Brain drain
5. Inadequate infrastructure
6. Inadequate use of technology in agriculture (crops are not high yield, little mechanization in agriculture).
7. Diseases

I could go on and on. Once you have lived in Africa you fall in love with the continent... and you recognize its poverty and pain. We Americans are trying to make a difference... we are trying.

121 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:16:07am
122 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:16:20am

re: #113 Thanos

The link
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]

So basically what you are saying here by quoting globalsecurity is that you acknowledge that since 1804 Muslims have been waging a constant war to conquer Nigeria.

123 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:16:22am

re: #110 Syrah

There is something about this riot that looks odd, like the reporting from Reuters may not be strait.

From another article.

It may be that there is more to this then Reuters is reporting.

In times of unrest, political and personal scores are settled. No doubt this is about the eventual supremacy of the Muslims in Nigeria. The Priests and Preachers are their main opponents.

124 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:16:25am

re: #76 Sorge
Thank you for that link. But I don't recall seeing where the religious affiliations of the the Hutu (about 90 per cent); the Tutsi (9 per cent), who are mainly cattle raisers; and the Twa (1 per cent) are.? I realize that all the missionary work was "Christian" but don't know where Islam entered the scene and where it has the most influence.

125 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:16:50am

re: #112 shanec99

President Bush did a lot for Africa. His work to fund AIDS prevention and treatment, his initiative to reduce malaria by 50% in 5 years including $1.2 billion.
He established the only American base on the African continent.
Under his administration America established the US Africa Command under a Four Star General.
People may speak ill of President Bush, but he has done more for Africa than any President in recent memory.
Unfortunately, Africa does not get a lot of attention in the media, so the things he has done to alleviate poverty, encourage regional stability and eradicate disease on the continent does not get a lot of attention.
Africa will lose a serious advocate when he leaves office, Pres Elect Obama may try to do what he has done, but I am not so sure that he will be as successful on the African continent.

Were condoms distributed?

126 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:16:51am
127 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:17:03am

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Addendum.....
AN INTERVIEW WITH MR. ADNAN OKTAR BY BBC

At 3:50 he claims Al Qaeda and Bin laden are Darwinists.

128 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:18:11am
129 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:18:34am

re: #125 MandyManners

Were condoms distributed?


There are programs to reduce AIDS all over Africa, and there is condom distribution.

130 gman  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:18:54am

Meanwhile, Kossacks are already trying desperately trying to connect the US to the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

It's amazing the lengths some people go to prevent cognitive dissonance and the inevitable learning that follows.

131 Syrah  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:19:26am

re: #118 MandyManners

The same week as Mumbai?

If so, most likely a coincidence.

Islam is often involved when the news is about blood being spilled. So much so that it may look coordinated even when it is not.

132 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:19:33am

re: #129 shanec99

There are programs to reduce AIDS all over Africa, and there is condom distribution.

That's the only way to stop the spread. However, aren't many African men reluctant to wear them?

133 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:19:41am

re: #116 96RoadKing

I have an issue with blaming western interference and the subsequent population growth. It's because of western 'interference' that more of the population survive to adulthood. If the local government strongmen would stop gobbling up all the wealth and let the population live in a civilization that would let them keep the fruits of their labor, their wouldn't be so many limited resources. Free people will take advantage of and be productive with whatever resources are available. If they need better roads, they'll build them; if they need more schools, they'll provide for them; if they need more food, they'll plant more crops. But they can't do that with warlords and tinpot dictators killing off the middle class every time they want to protect their thrones! You mention unwanted cultural change. My observation is that the people are merely trying to improve their lives and the lives of their children. It's the people in power who don't want things to change.

IN addition, many of the terrorists are educated and to sdome extent Westernized. . .exploiting the "weakness" that Westerners have about that whole 'preserve life' thing is part of it. . .

134 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:19:50am

re: #129 shanec99

There are programs to reduce AIDS all over Africa, and there is condom distribution.

Which sadly probably doesnt do much good considering the widely held belief in Africa that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS....

135 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:20:06am

re: #117 VegasRick

I get CVS Photo, Norwich university, Saab, and a lot of Christian ads. IT's google, driven by semi-AI that looks at your search and knows who you are.
Global Security is a left leaning think tank, they've been around a long time and are somewhat authoritative on global security.

136 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:20:09am

re: #131 Syrah

If so, most likely a coincidence.

Islam is often involved when the news is about blood being spilled. So much so that it may look coordinated even when it is not.

Maybe I'm paranoid but, I'm not putting anything past those fuckers.

137 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:21:04am

re: #130 gman

Meanwhile, Kossacks are already trying desperately trying to connect the US to the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

It's amazing the lengths some people go to prevent cognitive dissonance and the inevitable learning that follows.

Dead Jews have to be blamed on SOMETHING other than the truth. . .blind, rabid antisemitism is not an option. . .even if it is the truth

138 Syrah  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:21:11am

re: #136 MandyManners

Maybe I'm paranoid but, I'm not putting anything past those fuckers.

I can't argue with that. While I doubt that there was coordination, I would not be very surprised if there was.

139 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:21:36am

re: #125 MandyManners

Were condoms distributed?

Pronto Condoms - Manto

140 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:21:56am

re: #134 doriangrey

Which sadly probably doesnt do much good considering the widely held belief in Africa that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS....

and the cultural tradition of a man marrying the widow of his brother. . .even if that brother died of AIDS and having children with her. . .

141 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:22:05am

re: #122 doriangrey

No, that's what you just said. I said no such thing, look in the mirror or just say it yourself, don't stuff words in my mouth.

142 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:22:56am

re: #138 Syrah

I can't argue with that. While I doubt that there was coordination, I would not be very surprised if there was.

OTOH, do the Muslims in Africa have a lot of connections to the Muslims on the sub-continent?

143 VegasRick  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:22:57am

re: #135 Thanos

I get CVS Photo, Norwich university, Saab, and a lot of Christian ads. IT's google, driven by semi-AI that looks at your search and knows who you are.
Global Security is a left leaning think tank, they've been around a long time and are somewhat authoritative on global security.

I will take your word for it as you seem way more knowledgeable about that site than I am.

144 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:23:02am

re: #126 ploome hineni

overpopulation means unable to feed and emply and educate

bodies per sq mile is not a useful measure


Ploome before independence, Zimbabwe (used to be Rhodesia) was the bread baskets of Southern Africa... today, in Zimbabwe bread is almost unaffordable.
It is in many cases government incompetence, corruption, lack of education and infrastructure. The problems are myriad. You would cry if you were here.
Here is a statistic to demonstrate it... in Sub-Shanran Africa a child younger than 5 years old dies every 10 - 15 seconds from malaria. Something we in the west have eradicated for the most part.

145 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:23:06am

re: #129 shanec99

Recently the head of the Pope's franchise in Southern Africa was claiming that condoms cause AIDS.

146 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:23:59am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

Pronto Condoms - Manto

QUICK. QUICK.

I never fail to learn something at LGF.

147 Timbre  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:24:00am

More death than in Mumbai and less news coverage...

148 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:24:32am

re: #132 MandyManners

That's the only way to stop the spread. However, aren't many African men reluctant to wear them?


Some are, but for a long time it was government obstruction and ignorance. Read about what happened in South Africa.
There were men who believed that they would be cured of AIDS if they had sex with a virgin.
It was horrible.

149 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:06am

re: #141 Thanos

The stalker site has just Identified you as a jihadi. Congratulations.

150 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:06am

re: #145 Killgore Trout

Recently the head of the Pope's franchise in Southern Africa was claiming that condoms cause AIDS.

WTF?

151 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:26am

re: #145 Killgore Trout

Recently the head of the Pope's franchise in Southern Africa was claiming that condoms cause AIDS.


Lots of ignorance... but America is doing its best to help.

152 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:27am

I would wager that Muslim angst was the spark, however I can't see us cheering on the genocide that followed. I won't be party to that.

153 bellamags  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:27am

re: #146 MandyManners

QUICK. QUICK.

I never fail to learn something at LGF.

ouch.

154 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:43am

re: #149 Killgore Trout

The stalker site has just Identified you as a jihadi. Congratulations.

Congrats, Thanos! ;p

155 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:25:44am

re: #148 shanec99

Some are, but for a long time it was government obstruction and ignorance. Read about what happened in South Africa.
There were men who believed that they would be cured of AIDS if they had sex with a virgin.
It was horrible.

Lunacy. Sheer lunacy.

157 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:27:13am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

How do they get the condoms on the onions?/

158 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:27:31am

re: #141 Thanos

No, that's what you just said. I said no such thing, look in the mirror or just say it yourself, don't stuff words in my mouth.

Thanos, it is exactly what the article you linked to said. So by linking to that article you were in effect either admitting that you didnt read the article and were just trying to bullshit someone, or that you agreed with what the article said. I'm not putting words in your mouth, you put them there when you linked to that article. I am asking you to clarify whether you agreed with what the article said or not and if not why you linked to an article whose site you have already stated to be predominantly accurate.

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:27:49am

re: #151 shanec99

Lots of ignorance... but America is doing its best to help.

Thanks to the Current President of the United States. He has been the best friend from the US that the continent of Africa has ever had.

161 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:28:14am

re: #156 Killgore Trout

It sounds more like he suffers from tertiary syphilis of the brain Kilgore.

162 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:28:18am

re: #149 Killgore Trout

The stalker site has just Identified you as a jihadi. Congratulations.

Great news, I was getting concerned and somewhat hurt that they weren't paying any attention to me. I've also been outted in the past as a Pakistani, a mormon, a catholic, and a European.... so it goes.

163 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:28:44am
164 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:29:14am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks to the Current President of the United States. He has been the best friend from the US that the continent of Africa has ever had.


I agree.

165 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:29:17am

re: #157 notutopia

Those things stretch pretty good.

166 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:29:25am

re: #158 doriangrey

No, I just don't interpret it the way you do, so the advice to look in the mirror is some you should take.

167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:29:28am

re: #163 MandyManners

Just propaganda to keep people from using birth control.

Or, to make sure people keep dying.

What an awful story.

168 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:29:53am

re: #163 MandyManners

Yup.

169 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:30:21am

re: #132 MandyManners
See shanec99 #148 - I don't know if that addresses cultural refusal to use condoms or not, but it would seem that a lot of superstitious nonsense has taken hold and that may be - along with the "culture" from which those superstitions evolved, the reason why African men don't generally speaking like to use or are even willing to use condoms.
It's just tragic.

170 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:30:28am

re: #162 Thanos


I've also been outted in the past as a Pakistani, a mormon, a catholic, and a European.... so it goes.


Heh.

171 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:30:33am

re: #167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Or, to make sure people keep dying.

What an awful story.

Why would a clergyman want people to keep on dying?

172 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:30:39am

re: #116 96RoadKing

I have an issue with blaming western interference and the subsequent population growth. It's because of western 'interference' that more of the population survive to adulthood. If the local government strongmen would stop gobbling up all the wealth and let the population live in a civilization that would let them keep the fruits of their labor, their wouldn't be so many limited resources. Free people will take advantage of and be productive with whatever resources are available. If they need better roads, they'll build them; if they need more schools, they'll provide for them; if they need more food, they'll plant more crops. But they can't do that with warlords and tinpot dictators killing off the middle class every time they want to protect their thrones! You mention unwanted cultural change. My observation is that the people are merely trying to improve their lives and the lives of their children. It's the people in power who don't want things to change.

I agree that there may be a stress on the natural resources, but that is usually do to the corruption of the infastructure, or corruption of a process that wants to build an infastructure. It is politically useful to evil politicians if tens of thousands or hundreds of thousand die.

Reminds me of Prince Phillip, who said:

"In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation."
173 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:31:12am

re: #169 realwest

See shanec99 #148 - I don't know if that addresses cultural refusal to use condoms or not, but it would seem that a lot of superstitious nonsense has taken hold and that may be - along with the "culture" from which those superstitions evolved, the reason why African men don't generally speaking like to use or are even willing to use condoms.
It's just tragic.

I've read somewhere that condoms supposedly suppress the male essence.

174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:31:50am

re: #171 MandyManners

Not so much he wanted to, just unintended consequences of irresponsible lies.

175 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:32:06am

re: #162 Thanos

Great news, I was getting concerned and somewhat hurt that they weren't paying any attention to me. I've also been outted in the past as a Pakistani, a mormon, a catholic, and a European.... so it goes.

A Renaissance Man!

176 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:32:18am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Hey FBV - our political differences with Obama aside, do you think he'll continue with the Bush initiatives in Africa?

177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:32:31am

re: #173 MandyManners

Aren't they supposed to suppress the male essense?

178 Griffon  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:32:48am

Ain't religion wonderful.

179 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:33:05am

re: #166 Thanos

No, I just don't interpret it the way you do, so the advice to look in the mirror is some you should take.

Interpret my ass. What is there to interpret?

Usman Dan Fodio’s jihad, or religious war, 1804–1810, ended with the establishment of the Sokoto sultanate. This Islamic theocratic empire extended from what is now extreme northwest Nigeria in a broad swath southeast into contemporary northwest Cameroon. Armed forces of the emirate of Zazzau, based in present-day Zaria in north-central Kaduna State, continued intermittent warfare and slave raiding in the southern half of contemporary Kaduna State, an area populated by some 15 Middle Belt minority ethnic groups. The emir claimed suzerainty over this area.

After colonization, a number of the minorities, including the Gbagyi, who are the indigenes (first occupants) of the area where Kaduna city developed, converted to Catholicism and various Protestant sects. The emir of Zazzau, however, continued to assert his jurisdiction over Middle Belt minorities.

In the Northwest, core of the old North, some emirates—for example, Sokoto, Katsina, and Kano—retain much of their old authority. Others, such as Zazzau, have recently lost control over areas they formerly claimed, and their authority may be waning. By contrast, minority groups in southern Kaduna State such as the Byagyi, have, as part of the same recent events, gained recognition as new “indigenous” governments. Still others—for example, the newly minted Emirate of Dutse (1990)—may lack, at least at the emirate level, the authority associated with governance structures in the original seven Hausa states (Daura, Kano, Rano, Gobir, Biram [Sokoto], Zamfara, and Zazzau [Zaria]).

The situation in Kano is both simpler and more complex than that in other locations in northern Nigeria. Although the vast majority of the population is Muslim (perhaps as much as 90–95 %), many different Islamic sects coexist in the city. The traditional sects, all of which are followers of Sunni Islam, include the Qadriyya, the Tijaniyya, the Tariqa, the Malikiya, the Ahmadiya, and the Islamiya. Another group is the Da’awa (some use the term to designate a separate sect, some use it as a synonym for hisba—the group that enforces shari’a provisions—while still others use it to denote the preaching arm of the hisba).

180 Alouette  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:33:12am

re: #156 Killgore Trout

The head of the Catholic Church in Mozambique has told the BBC he believes some European-made condoms are infected with HIV deliberately.

They make condoms in Europe? I thought condoms were all manufactured in China.

181 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:34:07am

re: #171 MandyManners

He also is telling people that anti-AIDS drugs cause AIDS. I know people get really pissed at me for discussing this stuff but some religious people have a fetish for suffering. The accusation has been made that Mother Theresa had the same thing.

182 VegasRick  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:34:10am

re: #178 Griffon

Ain't some religions wonderful.

Yes.

183 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:34:36am

re: #171 MandyManners

Why would a clergyman want people to keep on dying?


He is just ignorant, and he is focusing on teaching abstention and celibacy or at least no sex outside of matrimony.
But his intentions are having severe consequences.

184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:35:12am

re: #176 realwest

Hey FBV - our political differences with Obama aside, do you think he'll continue with the Bush initiatives in Africa?

No idea. I hope so. Personally, I mind aid to Africa much less than I mind Auto Industry Subsidies.

185 bellamags  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:35:35am

re: #180 Alouette

They make condoms in Europe? I thought condoms were all manufactured in China.

Oh hell. are you serious? there must be at least one brand made in the USA.

186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:35:40am

re: #178 Griffon

Ain't religion wonderful.

Mine's kind of sweet.

187 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:35:59am

re: #178 Griffon

When it is abused and resorting to it to be used as political or dogmatic ascriptions, NO. Definitely not.
Otherwise, religion is an individual's prerogative.

188 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:36:16am

re: #173 MandyManners
Well if they work, I hope condoms suppress the male essence!
All I can say, in all seriousness, is that this situation is just tragic. If the Catholic Church is in fact discouraging the use of condoms in Africa, they are indeed enabling the spread of Aids there.
Again, just tragic and I don't know what "we" can do about it.

189 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:36:41am

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mine's kind of sweet.

Yes, you the faithful follower of the holy donuts..... ;p

190 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:36:50am

The Perennial Myth of Overpopulation

But isn’t the world overpopulated? Aren’t we headed toward catastrophe? Don’t more people mean less food, fewer resources, a lower standard of living, and less living space for everyone? Let’s look at the data.

As any population graph clearly shows, the world has and is experiencing a population explosion that began in the eighteenth century. Population rose sixfold in the next 200 years. But this explosion was accompanied, and in large part made possible, by a productivity explosion, a resource explosion, a food explosion, an information explosion, a communications explosion, a science explosion, and a medical explosion.

The result was that the sixfold increase in world population was dwarfed by the eighty-fold increase in world output. As real incomes rose, people were able to live healthier lives. Infant mortality rates plummeted and life expectancies soared. According to anthropologists, average life expectancy could never have been less than 20 years or the human race would not have survived. In 1900 the average world life expectancy was about 30 years. In 1993 it is just over 65 years. Nearly 80 percent of the increase in world life expectancy has taken place in just the last 90 years! That is arguably one of the single most astonishing accomplishments in the history of humanity. It is also one of the least noted.

But doesn’t this amazing accomplishment create precisely the overpopulation problem about which the catastrophists have been warning us? The data clearly show that this is not the case. “Overpopulation” cannot stand on its own. It is a relative term. Overpopulation must be overpopulation relative to something, usually food, resources, and living space. The data show that all three variables are, and have been, increasing more rapidly than population.

191 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:37:05am

For the record here's my favorite non-human animal.

192 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:38:15am

The World at Night

As you can see- Africa is almost completely dark. A third world continent, with all the difficulties that come with it. Sad.

193 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:39:19am

i am not in favor of genocide but i can't help feel a sense of relief that this time christians are fighting back. too often the story is brutal slaughter of christians and jews as we have just seen in india.

194 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:39:27am

re: #191 Thanos

For the record here's my favorite non-human animal.

Fess up- that's just taqiyya to throw us of the trail, you jihadi! ;p

195 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:39:44am

re: #120 shanec99

I'd add incompetent or malevolent leaders - including Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Heck, Zimbabwe was once the breadbasket to the continent but now is a basket case with inflation at nearly 2 million percent. You can't go to the store without a wheelbarrow to carry around the money to buy a loaf of bread (if you can actually find one).

196 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:39:45am

re: #192 Sharmuta

The World at Night

As you can see- Africa is almost completely dark. A third world continent, with all the difficulties that come with it. Sad.

So that's why it's called Darkest Africa..... ;p

197 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:39:46am

re: #190 DistantThunder

Did the math once, forgot the exact dimensions that I used, but giving every living human being 10 square feet to stand in, we'd cover an area roughly 1/2 the size of Rhode Island.

There is an area in the Grand Canyon that would hold every human being ever born.

I think perspective is pretty important.

198 SurferDoc  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:40:56am

Help, me! My male essence is being oppressed!

/nevermind

199 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:41:00am

re: #179 doriangrey

And if you'd read further you would see that the current crisis is more tribal in nature, with religion being a sub-component that both sides sometimes play. It's a replay of the old west range wars combined with tribalism, combined with religious war. Things are not as simplistic as Clash of Civilizations people like you make it.

200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:41:24am

re: #192 Sharmuta

But, not much darker than Australia.

201 WriterMom  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:41:27am

ANY TORONTO LIZARD: I have 2 spare, free tickets to see John Bolton tomorrow morning (Monday). Send me an e-mail if you would like to come.

202 bellamags  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:41:52am

HA. Trojan supra non-latex made in USA.

203 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:42:13am

re: #195 lawhawk

I'd add incompetent or malevolent leaders - including Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Heck, Zimbabwe was once the breadbasket to the continent but now is a basket case with inflation at nearly 2 million percent. You can't go to the store without a wheelbarrow to carry around the money to buy a loaf of bread (if you can actually find one).

no one that mugabe gave the farms to, can even drive a tractor, i'm sure.
the once fertile fields that were indeed the bread basket of africa are gone to waste.

204 WriterMom  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:42:16am

re: #193 nyc redneck

Seen any pictures out of Hebron lately. Lots of Jews fighting back there.

205 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:42:20am

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Africa is really complicated. This isn't just political or religious. There are regional, tribal, and ethnic rivalries at work too.

There are possibly more of those factors in USA, but somehow they don't act the same. Maybe it really isn't that complicated in Africa, just primitive.

Just saying.

206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:42:40am

re: #201 WriterMom

I was about to get real snarky! I thought you meant Michael Bolton. Good for you Mom! Get me a mustache trimming. (He's my freakin' hero!)

207 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:43:02am

re: #192 Sharmuta

The World at Night

As you can see- Africa is almost completely dark. A third world continent, with all the difficulties that come with it. Sad.

Leftists like ayers and enviro-wackos sell this as a good thing. They ignore the massive amount of human suffering that occurs due to a lack of modern conveniences. Lack of adequate sewage disposal creates the perfect breeding ground for a myriad of diseases and ailments such as the killer of millions: Dysentery. Again, hard-leftists don't see large death rates as problematic.

As my leftist brother says: "Humans are a cancer on the earth." It absolves him of any responsibillity to save the huddled masses.

208 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:43:07am

re: #204 WriterMom

Seen any pictures out of Hebron lately. Lots of Jews fighting back there.

more, more, more.

209 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:43:27am

re: #197 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did the math once, forgot the exact dimensions that I used, but giving every living human being 10 square feet to stand in, we'd cover an area roughly 1/2 the size of Rhode Island.

There is an area in the Grand Canyon that would hold every human being ever born.

I think perspective is pretty important.

Add to that the basic fact that of the available land humans only live in approximately 30 percent of that land. (the rest is considered inhospitable because of altitude, temperature or precipitation levels)

210 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:43:52am

re: #195 lawhawk

Yet Africa is home to many of the worlds richest diamonds and gem mines. Copper and minerals. The africans work for these industries and get little to none of the continents profits.

211 WriterMom  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:44:02am

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Me-see Michael Bolton? I pretty much throw up if I even think about that creepy Muzak wanker.

212 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:44:22am

re: #197 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did the math once, forgot the exact dimensions that I used, but giving every living human being 10 square feet to stand in, we'd cover an area roughly 1/2 the size of Rhode Island.

There is an area in the Grand Canyon that would hold every human being ever born.

I think perspective is pretty important.

Yeah, I think someone said that everyone could have their own square foot in Jackson County, TX. Same idea.

213 WriterMom  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:44:25am

re: #208 nyc redneck

It's amazing. They are fearless.

214 Griffon  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:44:39am

re: #210 notutopia

Yet Africa is home to many of the worlds richest diamonds and gem mines. Copper and minerals. The africans work for these industries and get little to none of the continents profits.

They need a Sarah Palin as their advocate.

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:44:56am

re: #207 DistantThunder

re: #207 DistantThunder

Relatively speaking, isn't the Continent of Africa fairly dearth of humans. Per square mile, etc.? Going to go check. Y'all wait for me for a few minutes.

216 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:45:20am

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Western news agencies (especially American ones) ignore everything in Africa. It's not an economically or strategically important part of the world so it just doesn't get any press.

You are right about that. However, it could be a rising power. Strategically, I'm not a military or diplomatic scholar--but we must shudder to think of the continent united under hostile ideology and bankrolled. So, China is there in a big way with their "soft power" and radical jihad is making deep inroads.

One reason news from the continent isn't covered is that it is complex. It is also fraught with the potential for thoughtcrime, as the unspoken truth remains that in the U.S. a mere handful of scholars hold influence over African Studies. In addition, the same racial politics that bleed into issues domestically, hold sway when it comes to examining issues in Africa.

Thoughtcrime is anathema to our media, they are lazy for the most part, so doing good journalism on the continent is very tough. The only payoff for media in covering Africa resides in good-dooby points for occasional crisis pieces on African catastrophes. At least we do hear of famines and upheavals, but never gain any real traction on understanding Africa and its people.

African Studies as a field of study is skewed by neo-Marxist interpretation. Having said this, however, it is also true that many real insights to the continent are to be found among generations of humanitarian relief and development types, among our diplomatic corps, the much maligned missionary workers and the so acceptable Peace Corps alums. It's not so simple getting at good information, so, that's why we don't get good information.

There is an enigma about Africa, her culture and history holds unexamined and ancient treasures. Why is the suffering so intractable, generation after generation. What a tragedy: the people permanently mendicant, robbed and preyed upon by corrupt government and armed thugs, plagued by diseases so appalling and endemic, impacting millions, again, for generations.

Many courageous, kindly, disciplined, brilliant individuals with whom I am personally acquainted come from African nations. Many now go back to the continent when their training and duties here in the U.S. are completed. May all their work be blessed with success, may this amazing land, cradle of humanity, finally gain victory over the shambles of history, and thrive unmolested for the remaining chapters of the human narrative.

217 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:45:28am

re: #190 DistantThunder

The limiting factor is always going to be energy, given abundant energy all other things are possible to overcome.

218 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:46:05am

re: #207 DistantThunder

Leftists like ayers and enviro-wackos sell this as a good thing. They ignore the massive amount of human suffering that occurs due to a lack of modern conveniences. Lack of adequate sewage disposal creates the perfect breeding ground for a myriad of diseases and ailments such as the killer of millions: Dysentery. Again, hard-leftists don't see large death rates as problematic.

As my leftist brother says: "Humans are a cancer on the earth." It absolves him of any responsibillity to save the huddled masses.

Very well said. Green- it's the new red.

219 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:46:39am

re: #151 shanec99

Lots of ignorance... but America is doing its best to help.

Bush's family planning advice is abstinence. Ditto for preventing AIDs.

You figure we are helping with what?

220 Alouette  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:46:54am

re: #204 WriterMom

Seen any pictures out of Hebron lately. Lots of Jews fighting back there.

Israeli moonbat performs "practical mitzvah" of protecting helpless, innocent Palestinians from eeville, scary "settlers"

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:47:29am

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Continent of Africa 71 people per square mile.

222 WriterMom  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:48:21am

re: #220 Alouette

Israeli moonbats and their self-loathing FETISH with the Palestinian is one of the most despicable Jewish phenomenons since the kapos, IMHO.

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:48:59am

re: #221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Appear to be better stats...

* North America - 32 people per square mile
* South America - 73 people per square mile
* Europe - 134 people per square mile
* Asia - 203 people per square mile
* Africa - 65 people per square mile
* Australia - 6.4 people per square mile

224 WriterMom  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:49:02am

re: #207 DistantThunder

Yes-just think of the DDT issue.

225 Spider Mensch  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:49:11am

re: #205 Naso Tang

There are possibly more of those factors in USA, but somehow they don't act the same. Maybe it really isn't that complicated in Africa, just primitive.

Just saying.

I know someone personally from Ghana, a muslim, we don't see eye to eye on alot but nonetheless, we are amicable with each other, we are somewhat friends...anyway, in talking with him about the aids crisis in Africa, he stated that, the problem is alot of peple there, Africa in general, think that aids is just bad juju like a cold or virus, something the witch doctor can get rid of for you. .

226 rumcrook  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:49:32am

re: #2 Alouette

you hit the nail on the head christians "fighting back" meaning the likelyhood that the muslims started it is probably 100%

227 amateurpundit  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:50:12am

Just keep Balkanizing America, insisting that racial, ethnic and sexual distinctions matter more than the Constitution, logic, reason and the rule of law, and this could be coming to a theater near you sooner than you think.

228 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:50:14am

re: #219 Naso Tang

Here.

Not in Africa. We are spending in-comprehensible amounts of resources over there.

229 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:50:34am

re: #192 Sharmuta
Thanks for that link Sharm. It's interesting how dark almost all of China and Australia are, too.

230 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:50:41am

re: #113 Thanos

what an excellent web source

231 Alouette  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:50:43am

re: #222 WriterMom

Israeli moonbats and their self-loathing FETISH with the Palestinian is one of the most despicable Jewish phenomenons since the kapos, IMHO.

The kapos at least were trying to protect themselves and their own families by throwing other Jews into the ovens. These moonbats aren't even faced with that immediate threat to their comfy, affluent lives.

232 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:51:56am

re: #217 Thanos

The limiting factor is always going to be energy, given abundant energy all other things are possible to overcome.

This was in my BYU alumni magazine

MERRY-GO-ROUND TO POWER AFRICAN SCHOOLHOUSES

Six engineering students recently unveiled a merry-go-round capable of turning children’s play into electricity. The students’ prototype uses a direct-current-generator system to turn the rambunctious energy of kids into electricity that can light schoolhouses in places like rural Ghana. For two semesters the team labored to develop a device complicated enough to capture and translate human energy into electricity, but simple enough to incorporate old car parts.

“Portions of the merry-go-round were made from parts found at a scrap yard, which is what people have to work with in Ghana,” says team leader Adrian T. Williams (BS ’07). “The project also promotes sustainable development because it is more than just lighting a schoolhouse, it is providing self-sustained education to these people so that they can be engineers and entrepreneurs themselves.”

Click on link to see the photo.

233 amateurpundit  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:52:07am

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian 65 people/square mile in Africa? Impossible.

234 debutaunt  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:52:27am

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Western news agencies (especially American ones) ignore everything in Africa. It's not an economically or strategically important part of the world so it just doesn't get any press.

Except for Darfur, for some unknown reason.

235 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:53:19am

re: #193 nyc redneck

Do you feel that the method of justice that we use here in the USA is then
"fighting back' by not going to hand to hand combat with the muslims?
We don't pick up machetes and bash each others mosques and places of worship and the Islamics heads. We don't have to. Thank Justice.
Be careful for the relief you think you are feeling....
EVERY different country has it's own set of parameters and laws to contend with these onslaughts of social and political injustices.
Africa's citizens are using what is currently available to them.
The government is broken and the citizens are defending themselves by any means possible. If you have not been to Africa, it's hard to conceptualize.
They are truly primitive.

236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:53:25am

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Population information...

237 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:53:42am

re: #230 Joan

They are great for looking up terror groups when you see a new name.

238 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:53:49am

re: #227 amateurpundit
Who is it do you think that's "Balkanizing America"?

239 rexatosis  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:54:37am

While the reporting of what is going on in Nigeria leaves alot to be desired informationally we should not overlook the obvious. The riots (unrest, carnage...) began on FRIDAY. These riots occurred after a hotly contested election the Christians won and the Moslems lost. Given these obvious facts and the historical propencity for Imans carrying their "weapon of the day" to whip up the Moslem masses into a riotous frenzy on Fridays it is not that far to make the intellectual leap to seeing this as probably being started by local Moslem youths.

240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:54:56am

re: #233 amateurpundit

Sahara Desert is larger than the continental U.S. Pretty low population density there.

Congo has areas not highly populated.

241 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:55:34am

re: #224 WriterMom

Yes-just think of the DDT issue.

Leftist sleep very well at night thinking they've saved the froggies even if it is at the expense of millions of human beings. Turns out DDT wasn't the problem they said it was.

242 Militant-Infidel  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:55:59am

re: #233 amateurpundit

65 people/square mile in Africa? Impossible.

Look it up for yourself (hint: google population density by continent). All the reports are close to 60-70/mi^2.

MI

243 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:56:05am

re: #232 DistantThunder

That's pretty cool, but... when Human power was the main source of energy slavery was rampant. I'd rather see investment in some big dirty coal plants. (The payoff there is still good for the environment, you put out millions of daily cooking fires permantly over time)

244 Karagush  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:58:28am

my OBGYN is a brilliant little Nigerian man. He is the smartest best Dr I have ever had from that field. (I live with chronic illness so nothing is simple for me.) He treats me with respect and dignity and actually listens, remembers my case and pays attention to changes. All of which is rare in a Dr these days. I am sad for the people of Nigeria, because they could be so much, and yet... Africa seems cursed.

He was so excited when he found out i studied tribal cultures of central Asia! I think the comment about how the Intellectual culture of the USA kind of blocks looking at Africa, and indeed any tribal cultures, except thru a politically correct prisim, is woefully true. But i will add another little obstical that keeps good journalism from happening--language.

Nobody in the US's Journalism schools is really set out to learn the languages of Africa with the intent of being able to go there and talk to people and report the truth. There are so many languages. Its so exotic, and frankly, its not anyones priority. So they have to resort to handlers and Translators which makes getting the story straight from people difficult.

Or so would say the people who taught me, if you want to get to a truth about a culture--learn the language, talk to its people, and learn their popular stories that they tell their children. Then you can understand what they are really up to.

245 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:58:36am

re: #239 rexatosis

While the reporting of what is going on in Nigeria leaves alot to be desired informationally we should not overlook the obvious. The riots (unrest, carnage...) began on FRIDAY. These riots occurred after a hotly contested election the Christians won and the Moslems lost. Given these obvious facts and the historical propencity for Imans carrying their "weapon of the day" to whip up the Moslem masses into a riotous frenzy on Fridays it is not that far to make the intellectual leap to seeing this as probably being started by local Moslem youths.

You have a very high probability of being correct.

246 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:58:54am

re: #243 Thanos

That's pretty cool, but... when Human power was the main source of energy slavery was rampant. I'd rather see investment in some big dirty coal plants. (The payoff there is still good for the environment, you put out millions of daily cooking fires permantly over time)

I read somewhere that indoor pollution from poorly ventilated wood fires is one of the main killers in many areas.

247 DistantThunder  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 10:59:13am

re: #243 Thanos

That's pretty cool, but... when Human power was the main source of energy slavery was rampant. I'd rather see investment in some big dirty coal plants. (The payoff there is still good for the environment, you put out millions of daily cooking fires permantly over time)

But you need political competency to allow business to come it and do that. Instead AFrica is tribal and corrupt - things cost much more to achieve after all the bribes are paid. One day there may be coal or nuclear plants - but until then, it's a good idea for the people to figure out how to work around the corruption and do their own thing.

248 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:00:56am

re: #247 DistantThunder

Yes, and stories like the one this thread is about certainly do not aid perceptions of business stability.

249 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:03:59am

re: #247 DistantThunder
Hey DT - "it's a good idea for the people to figure out how to work around the corruption and do their own thing."
I honestly don't know how people can do that there. I mean the government corruption starts at the top and doesn't end until you run out of government - and then the Tribal Chiefs take over. I do wish that they could have nuclear power (and I wish we could too) but that would also be government - corrupt government controlled as well.

250 realwest  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:05:50am

Well all y'all I gotta go do eat some lunch. Hope you all have a GREAT DAY and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

251 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:06:40am

re: #199 Thanos

And if you'd read further you would see that the current crisis is more tribal in nature, with religion being a sub-component that both sides sometimes play. It's a replay of the old west range wars combined with tribalism, combined with religious war. Things are not as simplistic as Clash of Civilizations people like you make it.

Bullshit............ I read the entire thing, the article was very intentionally predicated on the events of 1804 and the subsequent establishment of a Islamic Sultanate. It further clearly elucidated that from that date until today the Islamic population has been warring with the entire rest of Nigerian society to reestablish that Islamic Sultanate and nearly succeeded in 1999 when 11 of the Nigerian states adopted Sharia law as their criminal law system.

More importantly it shows that the events of recent days are a direct response to the October 27, 1999 adoption of Sharia law. Which was demonstrated by interconnection of events described to have its origins in the Usman Dan Fodio’s jihad.

So you either didn't read the article, or failed to comprehend what it said because there is no question of interpretation, so which was it?

252 notutopia  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:06:44am

re: #246 Jimmah

Carbon monoxide poisoning.

253 shanec99  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:13:11am

re: #219 Naso Tang
Go to the CJTF-HOA website... you will see that we are building schools, digging wells, helping with clinics.
Read the Presidential Malaria Initiative, President Bush committed the US to assisting by reducing malaria by 50% over 5 years and pledged $1.2 billion to achieve that goal.
Read about President Bush's AIDS initiative... a lot of work is on going.
USAID is spending money to develop various initiative to increase literacy, etc all across the continent.
Make no mistake about it, we Americans are doing a lot of good work here in Africa.

254 Syrah  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:15:26am

re: #142 MandyManners

OTOH, do the Muslims in Africa have a lot of connections to the Muslims on the sub-continent?

Not impossible, just unlikely or minimal at best.

255 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:15:44am

re: #244 Karagush
Good points, especially regarding reliance on biased in-country talent.

256 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:19:04am

re: #22 doriangrey

Apparently not....

Only knowledge I have on that is that Ghana has intact and functioning institutions, has been stable politically for decades, recently had a peaceful election and transfer of power at the national level. Again, though, it seems the roads to a better life for people of the African nations are rutted, washed out, and uphill all the way.

257 Joan  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:22:02am

re: #251 doriangrey

Your analysis of the report, which differed from another poster's analysis, was very well stated. Why the hostility? Your points carried, I found them persuasive. Now I have to actually read the article in total and think it through, which makes my brain sore.

258 doriangrey  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:29:24am

re: #257 Joan

Your analysis of the report, which differed from another poster's analysis, was very well stated. Why the hostility? Your points carried, I found them persuasive. Now I have to actually read the article in total and think it through, which makes my brain sore.

Because I asked Thanos a question regarding that article and he accused me of "stuffing words in his mouth" and suggested I go talk to a mirror. By the way it wasn't mean to be hostile, just forceful.

259 debutaunt  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:36:22am

re: #227 amateurpundit

Just keep Balkanizing America, insisting that racial, ethnic and sexual distinctions matter more than the Constitution, logic, reason and the rule of law, and this could be coming to a theater near you sooner than you think.

Yes, and red and blue states. Someone wants to un-united the USA.

260 Ponch  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 11:49:52am

re: #245 Thanos

Thanos, here's a nice link/site that, although it mostly gives the "christian" side of events, is known to have "boots on the ground".

[Link: www.persecution.net...]

[Link: www.persecution.net...]

"Since gaining independence from Britain in 1960, Nigeria has known only one decade of an elected government. In 1999, Olusegun Obasanjo, who says he found Christ while in prison under the previous military dictator, was elected as president. Nigeria is a federation of somewhat autonomous states with greed and corruption running throughout all levels of authority.

Nigeria is strongly divided between Christian and Islam. Statistics differ whether there are more adherents to Islam or Christianity in the nation as a whole. Northern Nigeria is predominantly Muslim and several of the states have adopted Sharia law for all civil cases.

In areas controlled by Muslims, Christians frequently face opposition. Churches have been burned and Christians killed in riots. In February of 2005, the predominantly Christian village of Demsa, Adamawa in northern Nigeria was attacked. According to Compass Direct, thirty-six Christians were killed and their property destroyed. Around 3000 survivors fled to a neighboring state. Also, for the fourth time in five years, the Conquerors Chapel of the Word of Faith Ministries in Kaduna, Nigeria, was destroyed by fire on April 10, 2005. The attacks began after Sharia law was introduced in Kaduna State in 2000."

261 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:01:58pm

re: #228 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here.

Not in Africa. We are spending in-comprehensible amounts of resources over there.

Spending is not necessarily helping. We, meaning government aid, don't give anything to anyone who even seem like they give advice on abortion, let alone offer it. That excludes a lot of people who primarily give out condoms, for example.


// But hey, some of "us" got principles that are more important than helping people.

262 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:05:07pm

re: #253 shanec99

So you think that as long as we put up buildings and fund research labs, we are justified in denying help to those at ground level handing out condoms and the like?

263 kynna  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:08:21pm

re: #120 shanec99

Ploome... Africa has 10% of the world's population, a dispropotionate quatity of its natural resources and 20% of its land mass.

Africa is not over populated... there is more than sufficient resources to go around, the problems are myriad, the ones I see are
1. Poorly educated populations
2. Ethnic strife and tribalism
3. Maldistributed resources
4. Brain drain
5. Inadequate infrastructure
6. Inadequate use of technology in agriculture (crops are not high yield, little mechanization in agriculture).
7. Diseases

I could go on and on. Once you have lived in Africa you fall in love with the continent... and you recognize its poverty and pain. We Americans are trying to make a difference... we are trying.

Do you think Africa would be better off if the UN were not so intimately involved? I've always felt that the plight of Africa is a clear testimony to what the UN actually achieves. It's horrible, heart-breaking, and I hope and pray that Obama continues President Bush's efforts when he takes office.

The US can't do it alone, though. Especially when we're the world's scapegoat.

264 kynna  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:16:46pm

re: #262 Naso Tang

So you think that as long as we put up buildings and fund research labs, we are justified in denying help to those at ground level handing out condoms and the like?

I've heard this kind of thing before and when I checked it out it was somewhat bogus. Those who want to put an absolute END to abstinence/monogamy education in Africa put out the word that 100% of our funding goes to that. It's not true. We still hand out plenty of drugs and condoms.

BTW: the countries/regions that have abstinence/monogamy education programs in concert with other outreach (the beloved condom program for instance) have seen a decrease in new AIDS cases. It may not be very hip, but if it saves lives, I guess I'll support the nerdy approach.

265 OrzBorz  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:21:19pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

re: #102 Opinionated

Very good points. Makes me glad I have the internet.

266 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:22:27pm

And I can point you to 2001 articles where thousands of Muslims died. It's ugly on both sides there. Saying yay! They killed a lot of muslims isn't what I'm going to do, you are welcome to do so if that's how you feel.

The muslim Hausa's are most probably the instigators here, as it started with a sore-loser demonstration. The real stake is the oil revenue monies, and at base that's what this is about. The Christians are pushing back the Muslims, and the muslims are radicalizing over the past several years. The Christian hard core groups continue to win the proselytization war however, as the elections attest.

Here's more from BBC

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Also this snip for PH, who tried to imply that the bodies at the mosques were Christians:

By late Saturday, at least 300 bodies had been brought to the city's main mosque for prayers before a quick burial, its imam said. The final death toll could be much higher, since many Christians are also presumed dead in the political violence that quickly took a sectarian turn. Christian bodies wouldn't be taken to the mosque, and the city morgue wasn't accessible.

The hostilities are the worst clashes in the restive West African nation since 2004, when as many as 700 people died in Plateau State during Christian-Muslim clashes.

[Link: www.google.com...]

267 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:29:52pm

re: #251 doriangrey

No, I read the full article. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be. Continue with your simplex perceptions, I find those type never change so further conversation is somewhat pointless.

268 Thanos  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 12:31:39pm

Even the Pope agrees:

The violence in central Nigerian city of Jos erupted after the results of regional elections were announced on Friday. The party which is generally associated with Christians, the People’s Democratic Party, was declared the victor in the elections, but the announcement was quickly greeted with accusations of rigging from the backers of the Muslim-associated All Nigeria People’s Party.

Rioting ensued, and the casualties are estimated to be in the hundreds. Although conflicts in the region are generally over resources, the violence usually breaks along ethnic and religious lines.

Speaking from the window of his study overlooking St. Peter's Square on Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI reacted to the news of the violence.

"There are many causes and circumstances behind these events but we must all feel the horror for and deplore the explosion of so much cruel and senseless violence,” he said.

“Let us ask the Lord to touch the hearts of those who are under the illusion that this is the path to solve local or international problems. Let us all be stirred to give an example of meekness and love so that we can build a society worthy of God and man," the Pope exhorted.

269 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 1:02:39pm

re: #264 kynna

The stated policy of the USA with regard to who qualifies for support and who does not is clear. There is nothing bogus or alleged about it. We do not assist any programs that don't satisfy the Bush administration's litmus test on morality. Period.

270 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 1:03:34pm

re: #235 notutopia

Do you feel that the method of justice that we use here in the USA is then
"fighting back' by not going to hand to hand combat with the muslims?
We don't pick up machetes and bash each others mosques and places of worship and the Islamics heads. We don't have to. Thank Justice.
Be careful for the relief you think you are feeling....
EVERY different country has it's own set of parameters and laws to contend with these onslaughts of social and political injustices.
Africa's citizens are using what is currently available to them.
The government is broken and the citizens are defending themselves by any means possible. If you have not been to Africa, it's hard to conceptualize.
They are truly primitive.

yes, and w/ out law and order, these people are reduced to the basic essence of survival using any means and weapons available to them.
it can only be the most brutal hideous type of conflict known to humans.
so much so that it hardly seems human.
we don't engage in this frightening behavior here because we still have civilization to keep such conduct in check. in africa, it is a kill or be killed attitude in many places.
i am saying, in this case, if christians have come out on top, i am glad.
i feel that way because given the apparent inevitability of conflict btw moslems and 'infidels', i am tired of hearing abt head chopping jihadis, murdering christians and jews w/ impunity.

271 kynna  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 3:18:17pm

re: #269 Naso Tang

The stated policy of the USA with regard to who qualifies for support and who does not is clear. There is nothing bogus or alleged about it. We do not assist any programs that don't satisfy the Bush administration's litmus test on morality. Period.

And what exactly is the litmus test on morality? Link please.

272 ciaospirit  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 3:41:46pm

re: #36 Thanos

It's horrible genocide, the majority of the casualites are Muslim, do dead muslim babies constitute "fighting back?"

You need to take your own #52 advice before making a comment like that. Makes me wonder why you would quickly jump to that conclusion against Christians.

273 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 4:13:10pm

re: #272 ciaospirit

The news that I read was Christian GANGS fighting Muslim GANGS.

You can say that you know better if you want, but giving knee jerk support just because one party is labeled Christian sounds like pure bigotry to me.

274 Naso Tang  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 4:16:58pm

re: #271 kynna

And what exactly is the litmus test on morality? Link please.

I'm surprised an explanation is needed. The morality is pro or against abortion, including simply giving advice as opposed to performing.

The Bush administration will not give aid to any organization that has any mention of abortion. That is the litmus test, and since most such organizations don't actually perform abortions, that means none of their programs receive US aid, regardless of how effective they are in other areas.

Did you not know that?

275 displaced yankee  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 4:27:45pm

re: #122 doriangreyI think they've been waging a war to conquer Nigeria since 632 AD. (5137). How do I know? Their "Bible" tells me so!

276 kynna  Sun, Nov 30, 2008 5:37:33pm

re: #274 Naso Tang

I'm surprised an explanation is needed. The morality is pro or against abortion, including simply giving advice as opposed to performing.

The Bush administration will not give aid to any organization that has any mention of abortion. That is the litmus test, and since most such organizations don't actually perform abortions, that means none of their programs receive US aid, regardless of how effective they are in other areas.

Did you not know that?

I asked for a link to your source. You say 'any mention of abortion'. I'd love to see where this is codified.

Regardless, the Bush administration has done more to save lives in and bring hope to Africa than any president before him. That's not just me saying that, either. I suppose your 'litmus test' for morality is making abortion accessible? And this saves lives how?

277 ebed_melech  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:03:15am

How many Muslims do you know who having had an arm amputated or scalded by being bound to a barrel in the desert wake up to a purer, more caring attitude to Christians? I know Christians in the opposite position.

As to this video, which does grave discredit to Methodists, strengthening the bulwarks of determined and wilful ignorance about the Creator will ultimately avail nothing. Darkness may be preferable for a while, but it won't last.


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