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Ya'alon: Turning the Oslo Approach On Its Head

World | Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:57:03 pm PST

Former IDF chief of staff Moshe Ya’alon has a thoughtful piece in Azure Magazine: Israel and the Palestinians: A New Strategy.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German priest executed by the Nazis, once wrote, “If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the opposite direction.” Fifteen years ago, the signing of the Oslo accords with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) raised hopes that Israel had boarded the “peace train.” Over the years, however, it became clear that the train was not headed for the promised destination. Nevertheless, Israel’s leadership has been pointlessly running along the corridor ever since.

The shattered hopes left in Oslo’s wake have been the subject of numerous books, articles, and opinion columns. Most attempt to identify a single cause for the collapse of the peace process, be it the Hebron massacre, the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, Benjamin Netanyahu’s leadership, the lack of chemistry between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat, Operation Defensive Shield, IDF roadblocks, or the expansion of the settlements, to name just a few. Such explanations naturally involve playing the blame game or—particularly in the case of many Israeli analysts—engaging in self-flagellation. The problem with these assessments is that any attempt to single out a particular point in time at which the “peace train” derailed usually betrays an unwillingness to face an uncomfortable yet undeniable fact: It was the wrong train to begin with.

If we truly seek to understand why the Oslo peace process failed, we must reevaluate the fundamental principles of the strategy employed by the architects of the agreement, one of which—arguably the most important—was the assumption that bold diplomacy is the driving force behind historical compromise between two nations. Accordingly, the logic that dominated the Oslo process was based on the idea that negotiations and agreements are a necessary prologue to the achievement of tangible change in security, economic, and social conditions. Put simply, Israeli statesmen hoped that diplomatic breakthroughs reached at the negotiating table would pave the way to ending the larger conflict. They believed that treaties, goodwill gestures, and territorial concessions would ease tensions and violence in the region, and, as a result, security and stability would return to Israel’s narrow strip of land.

This doctrine had already begun to falter before the outbreak of the Palestinian war against Israel in September 2000, but the extent to which it was in truth a monumental mistake has since become abundantly clear. Over the past eight years, the gap between the aspirations of the peace process and the dismal reality on the ground has expanded ad absurdum.

Ostentatious international summits and the celebrated declarations they produced—including the pretentious Annapolis summit in November 2007—have yielded nothing but broken promises. In the face of the Palestinian Authority’s descent into corruption and violent chaos, the “peace process” has turned out to be an empty delusion.

In light of this, Israel and the West have no choice but to revise their entire policy toward the Palestinians. This requires not merely cosmetic alterations, or still more intensive efforts to advance the old Oslo process, but an alternative strategy that will redefine our objectives and the means necessary for their realization.

In outlining such a strategy, we must learn from our bitter experience, and realize, once and for all, that even the most impressive treaties carry no weight if one of the signatories is unable—or unwilling—to fulfill its commitments. Therefore, we need to turn the Oslo approach on its head: Instead of trying to achieve historical change “from the top down,” exaggerating the importance of declarations handed down to the masses as if from the peak of a diplomatic Mount Olympus, we should adopt a new, more pragmatic policy that promotes change “from the bottom up.” Such a strategy should seek to establish stability and security first, to be followed only later—and perhaps after a great lapse of time—by peace.

Read the whole thing...

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137 comments

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1 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 4:59:01pm

Oh sure....noone listens when Wrath says it but.....

2 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 4:59:12pm
the most impressive treaties carry no weight if one of the signatories is unable—or unwilling—to fulfill its commitments

Obama will get to learn that over and over for the next 4 years.

3 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 4:59:26pm

Reading it now. Good stuff so far.

4 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 4:59:40pm

Except this reasoned approach is just the opposite of what the new Obama "Team" is contemplating doing?

5 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 4:59:47pm

re: #1 WrathofG-d

Oh sure....noone listens when Wrath says it but.....

What? Did you just say something?

6 redc1c4  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:00:49pm

he makes entirely too much sense.....

no one in charge will listen to him.

7 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:01:47pm

Joining Likud.

8 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:02:51pm

28 or so years later......we just might realize that someone was right about this all along.....

I hope that Israel listens to this man, and he follows through.

9 The Other Les  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:03:14pm

re: #4 Nevergiveup

Except this reasoned approach is just the opposite of what the new Obama "Team" is contemplating doing?

Die Grosse NULL doesn't have to arrive at conclusions by a rational process, he gets his info as a revelation straight from the source of the light.

Of course there's going to be a difference of opinion as to the identity of the light source.

10 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:03:25pm

The *bottom* has been saying this for years.

11 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:04:38pm

First step.

Screw the gang from Tripoli and deal with the grassroots sheikhs.

12 VegasRick  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:04:45pm

re: #10 Wishing

The *bottom* has been saying this for years.

Did you just call Wrath an ass?
/

13 Soona'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:04:52pm

re: #10 Wishing

The *bottom* has been saying this for years.

Is this sort of like Obama's "trickle up" theory?

14 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:05:12pm

Oh snap!

15 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:06:47pm

The asininity of the Oslo process has been obvious for years, to anyone giving it even a cursory look. Please God, let people listen to this man!

16 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:06:53pm

Above all, it is not decency or goodness of gentleness that impresses the Middle East, but strength.

17 VegasRick  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:07:20pm

re: #13 Soona'

Is this sort of like Obama's "trickle up" theory?

The only time I have seen something able to "trickle up" it was attached to a bloodsucker.

18 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:08:05pm

Exactly Wrath! Israel has been pussyfooting around, at Washington's bidding, by and large. With elections coming, MAYBE we will get some tougher Israelis in office.

19 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:08:10pm

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

20 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:08:18pm

I see all this and know that if we are to save the Jewish state and its [citizens] from terrible horrors, we must rise up and demand a fundamental change in the very system....

21 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:08:42pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

But do the rest of us have to suffer along with them?

22 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:09:40pm

re: #20 WrathofG-d

The Israeli electorate seems tired of conflict and they keep electing weak leaders.

23 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:09:50pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

I think that is the point of the article: you cannot hope to negotiate with people to whom negotiation has no meaning.

24 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:09:55pm

re: #13 Soona'

One of the great problems with Americans is that - being a decent people - they assume that everyone else is equally decent.

25 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:10:09pm

re: #21 Nevergiveup

I don't plan to.

26 Soona'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:10:26pm

re: #21 Nevergiveup

But do the rest of us have to suffer along with them?

What do you mean?

27 Elcid  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:12:31pm
If we truly seek to understand why the Oslo peace process failed, we must reevaluate the fundamental principles of the strategy employed by the architects of the agreement, one of which—arguably the most important—was the assumption that bold diplomacy is the driving force behind historical compromise between two nations. Accordingly, the logic that dominated the Oslo process was based on the idea that negotiations and agreements are a necessary prologue to the achievement of tangible change in security, economic, and social conditions. Put simply, Israeli statesmen hoped that diplomatic breakthroughs reached at the negotiating table would pave the way to ending the larger conflict. They believed that treaties, goodwill gestures, and territorial concessions would ease tensions and violence in the region, and, as a result, security and stability would return to Israel’s narrow strip of land.

Moshe Ya’alon, you obviously know best, sir....BUT talking with these 'people' if you wish to term them that, is akin to yelling at your TV. It only makes the TV seem intelligent.

28 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:12:34pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

The Palestinians will want peace when they are pounded into submission and surrender. Until then its the same shit day in day out. Ask the Japanese.

29 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:12:52pm

re: #26 Soona'

What do you mean?

The Palestinians can and do make life difficult for anyone who lives in Israel and their inability to conduct their affairs like a civilized society effects the whole middle east, not as much as everyone makes out, but still.

30 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:15:22pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Israel, spoiled by their success in life only want to be left alone. For the most part, they are a country of American-Like Liberals. They believe that if they wish it enough, their Oslo peace will become a reality. The fact that their media constantly feeds this delusion, doesn't help.

The [Israeli] does not wish to be isolated. He fears being alone, without allies. [They are] upset because the nations of the world - the United Nations - lash him, brand him as racist and evil, hate him and openly demonstrate their desire to destroy him. But what they really have to realize is that Love has its place, as does hate. Peace has its place, as does war. Mercy has its place, as do cruelty and revenge. The way I see it, the Jew is not a cripple. G-d made him with two legs, and the authentic healthy Jew walks on both of them.

But in many ways I am afraid, for the first time, that Israel is in the hands of people so blind and so mad and so un-Jewish that they may not be able, G-d forbid, to avert the catastrophe.

31 Hucbald  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:15:59pm

Might I just add, "Duh!"

32 Alouette  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:16:03pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

They suffer when Jews are alive.

33 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:16:43pm

re: #29 Nevergiveup

The Palestinians can and do make life difficult for anyone who lives in Israel and their inability to conduct their affairs like a civilized society effects the whole middle east, not as much as everyone makes out, but still.

And to be honest, Israel doesn't help the situation by subsidizing their sorry asses. Just my opinion.

34 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:16:51pm

re: #32 Alouette

They suffer when Jews are alive.

They suffer a self-imposed suffering when Jews are alive.

35 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:17:10pm

Bush to Olmert: Why are you giving Syria the Golan for nothing?

WASHINGTON - U.S. President George Bush believes that Israel is offering Syria the Golan Heights without getting anything in exchange, according to sources briefed on his White House meeting with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert last week.

After Olmert updated Bush on Israel's indirect talks with Syrian President Bashar Assad, the U.S. president demanded, "Why do you want to give Assad the Golan for nothing?" the sources said.

"It's not for nothing," Olmert insisted. "It's in exchange for a change in the region's strategic alignment."

Bush persisted: "Why should you believe him?" And to that, Olmert did not reply.

36 quickjustice  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:18:07pm

The Palestinians are cannon fodder for other interest groups in Iran, the UN, and elsewhere in the Arab world. Why do the UN refugee camps still exist after 50 years? Treating them as if they're in a vacuum apart from the rest of the Arab world is a doomed effort, and diplomatic solutions can yield nothing if diplomats can't deliver.

37 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:18:36pm

re: #33 Wishing

And to be honest, Israel doesn't help the situation by subsidizing their sorry asses. Just my opinion.

Everybody is subsidizing their sorry asses. The Palestinians are the only ones who even could fuck up the Casino Business?

38 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:18:49pm
Ostentatious international summits and the celebrated declarations they produced—including the pretentious Annapolis summit in November 2007—have yielded nothing but broken promises. In the face of the Palestinian Authority’s descent into corruption and violent chaos, the “peace process” has turned out to be an empty delusion.

Too true.


(subtract the violence - and this reminds me of our democrats. Empty promises and never ending corruption.)

39 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:18:59pm

I say that if they dont want to be citizens of Israel, send em over to Jordan. Not that Jordan WANTS them. LOL

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:19:07pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

How true, how true.
They like it that way, too.

41 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:19:59pm

re: #40 pre-Boomer Marine brat

How true, how true.
They like it that way, too.

Would you care to define what you mean by *palestinian suffering* please?

42 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:20:36pm

re: #39 Wishing


Jordan doesn't have to want them. Just as the world is telling Israel....if Jordan doesn't want them as citizens then they can carve out a piece of their country to give to the Phakestinians to create a state. It is more logical to have the Arabs living among Arabs then force the Arab square peg into the Jewish round hole.

(I know, but leave your perverted jokes alone)

43 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:21:19pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The Palestinians can have peace when they want it. They aren't done suffering yet.

succinctly put.

44 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:21:32pm

re: #27 Elcid

Moshe Ya’alon, you obviously know best, sir....BUT talking with these 'people' if you wish to term them that, is akin to yelling at your TV. It only makes the TV seem intelligent.

That's another way of stating Ya’alon's point.

45 yochanan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:21:37pm

is OLMERT BE GONE anything like TROLL BE GONE?

last poll i saw has lakuid winning the election. and the INDIAN TERRORIST attack can't help the liberals esp since the arabs were over joyed by it.

46 jhn1  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:21:44pm

he is dancing around the main issue.
there is a single cause for the failure of the various peace initiatives.
The Arabs in general and those of Palestinian decent in particular, DON'T WANT PEACE, especially as low as the social cost is to continue to wage war against Israel. (Heck, the Jews even financially support their culture (free power, desalinated water, food, fuel and medicines) so all outside donations can be used to wage war against Israel.

Israel is going to have to raise the cost to the Pallys if they ever want any blowback against waging war against Israel.

47 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:21:45pm

re: #42 WrathofG-d

Jordan doesn't have to want them. Just as the world is telling Israel....if Jordan doesn't want them as citizens then they can carve out a piece of their country to give to the Phakestinians to create a state. It is more logical to have the Arabs living among Arabs then force the Arab square peg into the Jewish round hole.

(I know, but leave your perverted jokes alone)

I agree with you 100%. And please tack on, LEAVE JERUSALEM ALONE!

48 LoFlyer  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:22:44pm

This will get buried in the round file ASAP mates. Great analysis mates. This guy ought to partner with Bolton and do a Fox News show....

49 Soona'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:23:33pm
50 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:23:44pm
51 Charles  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:23:56pm

re: #46 jhn1

he is dancing around the main issue.

If you read the whole thing, you'll see that he doesn't dance around that issue one bit.

52 yochanan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:24:38pm

re: #42 WrathofG-d

Jordan doesn't have to want them. Just as the world is telling Israel....if Jordan doesn't want them as citizens then they can carve out a piece of their country to give to the Phakestinians to create a state. It is more logical to have the Arabs living among Arabs then the Arab square peg CAN GO INTO THE GOAT round hole.

(I know, but leave your perverted jokes alone)

FIXED THAT FOR YOU

NEED I PUT IN THE SARCISM TAG.

53 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:24:59pm

In outlining such a strategy, we must learn from our bitter experience, and realize, once and for all, that even the most impressive treaties carry no weight if one of the signatories is unable—or unwilling—to fulfill its commitments.

Homerun.

54 Elcid  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:25:11pm

re: #44 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That's another way of stating Ya’alon's point.

True. I do not possess his word power...:)

55 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:25:44pm

re: #41 Wishing

Would you care to define what you mean by *palestinian suffering* please?

First, Killgore brought it up.

Second, let me give an example of how I see it -- the mother of the front-end-loader operator who went on a rampage in Jerusalem earlier this year. Weeping and wailing, she hailed her son as a heroic martyr. The point's subtle. Think about it.

56 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:26:43pm

Ahh, you mean their self-imposed drama. I call that an attempt at an Emmy, not suffering.

57 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:27:49pm

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

There's something about wolves dressed as sheep too................

/

58 yochanan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:28:20pm

re: #56 Wishing

Ahh, you mean their self-imposed drama. I call that an attempt at an PULITZER FOR THE NEW YORK SLIME SORT OF LIKE THE ONE THEY GOT IN 33 BECAUSE OF THERE LIES ON THE UKRANE, not suffering.

59 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:29:21pm

re: #56 Wishing

Ahh, you mean their self-imposed drama. I call that an attempt at an Emmy, not suffering.

Yes. Often we are the source of our own misfortune, especially when there is an emotional pay-value in it. The Palistinians simply love being persecuted!

60 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:29:21pm

The problem so far with most of the most recent anti-terrorist action by Israel is that the Jewish fist was not connected to a head. This is especially true when discussing Olmert and Al-Qadima.

Israel should learn quickly that it is better to have a strong Israel that is hated by the whole world, than an Auschwitz that is loved by it".

61 LoFlyer  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:29:40pm

re: #56 Wishing

Ahh, you mean their self-imposed drama. I call that an attempt at an Emmy, not suffering.

The documentary "Palliwood" offers a lot of insight into the "drama" of the average Palestinian mate..

62 Soona'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:31:22pm

re: #59 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes. Often we are the source of our own misfortune, especially when there is an emotional pay-value in it. The Palistinians simply love being persecuted!

How in the hell are they being persecuted? Are you being sarcastic?

63 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:31:55pm

re: #55 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree with you - some people are happiest when they are the most miserable. These people seem to THRIVE on woe is me. Its sickening the way they view their children as so expendable. To me, the Middle East solves its problems the minute they love their children more than they love misery and more than they hate Jews.

64 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:32:55pm

re: #63 ArmyWife

I agree with you - some people are happiest when they are the most miserable. These people seem to THRIVE on woe is me. Its sickening the way they view their children as so expendable. To me, the Middle East solves its problems the minute they love their children more than they love misery and more than they hate Jews.

Golda said the same thing.

65 LoFlyer  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:33:57pm

From the above post, Palliwood I and Palliwood II

66 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:34:11pm

re: #64 Nevergiveup

I am sure many have said that - it isn't an original thought.

67 mj  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:35:26pm

There was a book which came out in 2005 by Kenneth Levin called the
The Oslo Syndrome. Here's an interview with the author conducted by
Jamie Glazov at FrontPage at the time. The book is well worth the read:

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

68 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:35:53pm

re: #62 Soona'

How in the hell are they being persecuted? Are you being sarcastic?

They see themselves as "persecuted". It is "reality" to them. Therefore, they are "suffering". ... Think self-image psychology.

I should have put "persecuted" in quotes in that earlier post.

69 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:36:10pm
It is only appropriate that the aid money allocated through these channels be granted on the condition that new teachers who do not identify with terrorism are hired and trained, and that new textbooks are developed that promote modernization, tolerance, and humanism instead of backwardness, fundamentalism, and hate.

Absolutely!

70 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:36:37pm

re: #63 ArmyWife

The Palestinians are the model for the new generation of warfare used in Iraq, Thailand, Afghanistan, etc. They incur sufferer on themselves (bomb their own mosques and schools), kill their own people to increase their own suffering. It gets them plenty of sympathy from the MSM and the court of world opinion.

71 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:37:21pm

re: #59 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes. Often we are the source of our own misfortune, especially when there is an emotional pay-value in it. The Palistinians simply love being persecuted!

The fakestinians are the masters at playing the victim card, even to the extent of allowing and/or perpetrating the death of their own children so they can blame the Jews. All this is done to pluck at the heart strings of the west and the UN who, together, join in the chorus of condemnation of Israel. The Fakes are their own worse enemy and the enemy of Israel as well. Give them nothing, NOTHING AT ALL.

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:37:35pm

re: #63 ArmyWife

I agree with you - some people are happiest when they are the most miserable. These people seem to THRIVE on woe is me. Its sickening the way they view their children as so expendable. To me, the Middle East solves its problems the minute they love their children more than they love misery and more than they hate Jews.

Golda Meir

Golda, where are you when your people need you?
/rhetorical

73 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:38:30pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Sadly, it does. No one seems to want to point out the obvious - to include Condi Rice.

74 lobo91  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:39:07pm

re: #63 ArmyWife

Its sickening the way they view their children as so expendable. To me, the Middle East solves its problems the minute they love their children more than they love misery and more than they hate Jews.

The only way that's ever going to happen is if we take the Ann Coulter approach (kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity).

In their perverted view, having their children become suicide bombers is the greatest thing that could happen to them, because it assures their place in Paradise.

75 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:39:54pm

re: #41 Wishing

Would you care to define what you mean by *palestinian suffering* please?


They attack boarder crossings so the Israelis will close them. They attack fuel depots so the Israelis will stop shipments. They launch a daily barrage of rockets and mortars but they increase it if there's a chance of peace talks. They will do everything in their power to insure their own suffering.

76 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:40:01pm

Its the ingrained anti semitism in the koran that worries me...

77 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:40:10pm

re: #73 ArmyWife

Sadly, it does. No one seems to want to point out the obvious - to include Condi Rice.

You mean Condi the Russian expert that did nothing during the invasion?
I remember her

78 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:40:55pm

re: #74 lobo91

OT - Long time no see.

79 Soona'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:41:48pm

re: #71 A Kiwi Infidel

The fakestinians are the masters at playing the victim card, even to the extent of allowing and/or perpetrating the death of their own children so they can blame the Jews. All this is done to pluck at the heart strings of the west and the UN who, together, join in the chorus of condemnation of Israel. The Fakes are their own worse enemy and the enemy of Israel as well. Give them nothing, NOTHING AT ALL.

Oh, I can think of a few things to give them. Via the IAF or the USAF.

80 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:42:13pm

re: #35 Ben Hur

Bush to Olmert: Why are you giving Syria the Golan for nothing?

/But I thought Bush is dumb?

81 lobo91  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:42:38pm

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

OT - Long time no see.

Howdy, Walter.

I've been around some, but haven't had much time for posting.

Back to Ft Bliss again next week.

82 Soona'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:44:01pm

Gotta go now. See yous later.

83 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:44:04pm

Israel's survival may rest on the kind of radical revolution in thinking that has been taking shape here at LGF and elsewhere in the bloggosphere for the past several years.

In the first place, the "Palestinians" themselves are the most ideologically enslaved people in history, their reasoning power and their very humanity destroyed by 60 years of high-intensity hate propaganda. Negotiating with them is therefore like negotiating with a rabid dog. They must be liberated from this propaganda culture before they can be cured of their addiction to lies, and hate and violence.

Unfortunately, any effort to deal with Palestinian insanity is doomed from the start by global sympathy for their alleged plight; that is, by the power of the global media to advance an anti-Israel agenda in other countries, and especially among nominal Israel's friends.

What is this revolution in thinking?

Israel must recognize that the global media culture is its true enemy, and the greatest threat to its survival. The obvious anti-Israel agenda of the media establishment is the route by which the insane propaganda of Palestinian hate-mongers has insinuated itself into the diplomatic process and even into Israel's own security planning. As it now stands, Israel must pander to allies who are themselves unable to act freely because the media have deceived their populations about the reality and history of the conflict. This is an impossible situation.

Why the media culture has this position is another question entirely. The best answers I have found are in Thomas Frank's landmark cultural history, the Conquest of Cool: Business Culture, Counterculture, and the Rise of Hip Consumerism. The short version is that Israel's survival conflicts with the depraved values of present-day media culture and the media culture's inherent identification with, and sympathy for, terrorists. In my own humble opinion, there is a healthy dose of petrodollar corruption thrown into the mix as well.

84 North95  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:44:21pm

It's a good piece, but I hope it is not too optimistic. I hope Obama reads it.

North

85 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:45:36pm

re: #71 A Kiwi Infidel

The fakestinians are the masters at playing the victim card, even to the extent of allowing and/or perpetrating the death of their own children so they can blame the Jews. All this is done to pluck at the heart strings of the west and the UN who, together, join in the chorus of condemnation of Israel. The Fakes are their own worse enemy and the enemy of Israel as well. Give them nothing, NOTHING AT ALL.

No. They need the one thing they've never had.

The Palestinians (PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, etc, etc) have never had a crushing, undeniable, defeat.

Having never experienced that, they can maintain the myth that victory is possible.

86 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:47:00pm

re: #83 Shiplord Kirel

*rimshot*
(as I've gotta run)

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:47:19pm

Out for the rest of the evening.
Bye, all!

88 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:50:23pm

re: #74 lobo91

I don't know that converting to Christianity is the ONLY answer, but Ann Coulter is on the right path. My husband was embedded in the Iraqi Army, he is also Jewish. It wasn't something he spoke about, for obvious reasons, but one of the Iraqi Army soldiers happened to see a picture on his computer of some family something (it might have been a bris now that I think about it). The Iraqi gave my husband a weird look and in broken English said he wouldn't have ever known because my husband was so "good". It actually broke ice between these two, and ended up with conversation on myths about Jews a little bit, but more than that, this guy would ask a ton of questions about Americans in general. One of my husband's favorite stories is the conversation they had about American women. He was flabbergasted that American men were OK with their wives being equal. I had a point here, but it is starting to sound like a "buy the world a coke" commercial, so I'll quit while I am ahead!

89 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:53:31pm

I like it. Zero based peace process: we might talk when you show us a functional, lasting, stable democratic gov't. Isn't that what Rudy said as well?

90 Truck Monkey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:53:44pm

re: #60 WrathofG-d

The problem so far with most of the most recent anti-terrorist action by Israel is that the Jewish fist was not connected to a head. This is especially true when discussing Olmert and Al-Qadima.

Israel should learn quickly that it is better to have a strong Israel that is hated by the whole world, than an Auschwitz that is loved by it".

Amen. Never again.

91 yochanan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:57:02pm

VERY OFF TOPIC
filed under spreading the wealth around
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

92 Iron Fist  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:59:43pm

Have the Palestinians ever met even one of the milestones set forth at Oslo? If they have, I haven't seen it. Certainly, no one could accuse them of having negotiated in good faith. At the same time, the Israelis have been so accommodating of the Palestinians that it is difficult to think of any more that they can realistically do.

They're already walking the thin line with extinction by being as accommodating as they are. And they have nothing to show for it

93 Age Of Freedom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:59:44pm

re: #28 kansas

The Palestinians will want peace when they are pounded into submission and surrender. Until then its the same shit day in day out. Ask the Japanese.

This.

94 opinionated  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:06:10pm
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President-elect Barack Obama on Monday gave a sense of his foreign policy priorities by saying he sees much work to do on reining in Iranian and North Korean nuclear programs and promoting Middle East peace.

"There is much to do, ....... to seeking a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians,................." Obama said as he announced his choice of Sen. Hillary Clinton to be his secretary of state.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.
Albert Einstein

95 ps2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:08:16pm

[Link: haaretz.com...]

so where does this fit in?

Israeli officials are deeply concerned over an internal European Union document outlining the EU's plans for advancing an Israeli-Palestinian deal in 2009. Inter alia, it calls for increased pressure on Israel to reopen Palestinian institutions in Jerusalem, including Orient House, which formerly served as the Palestinian Authority's headquarters in the city.

The document, a copy of which was obtained by Haaretz, was written by the French Foreign Ministry, as France currently occupies the EU's rotating presidency.

It is slated to be discussed next week at a meeting of the EU's foreign ministers, and Israel is trying to get various elements changed before then.
Advertisement
Titled "The EU Action Strategy for Peace in the Middle East: The Way Forward," the document proposes various steps the EU should take in 2009 on both the Palestinian and the Syrian tracks, with emphasis on the former. However, its proposals are liable to result in a clash with whatever new government Israelis elect in February, whether headed by Tzipi Livni or Benjamin Netanyahu.

The EU, it states, must encourage the newly elected American government to be actively engaged in Israeli-Palestinian talks.

In addition, the document states, the international community must closely monitor implementation of the first stage of the road map peace plan, which requires Israel to freeze settlement construction and remove West Bank roadblocks, and the PA to fight terror.

Regarding the so-called core issues of the conflict - borders, security, Jerusalem and refugees - the document proposes three main lines of action.

"A key part of building the Palestinian state involves resolving the status of Jerusalem, as the future capital of two states," it declares. Therefore, "the EU will work actively towards the re-opening of the Palestinian institutions, including the Orient House."

Orient House, which once served as the PA's de facto Foreign Ministry, was closed in August 2001 following the deadly terror attack on Jerusalem's Sbarro restaurant. Since then, successive Israeli governments have refused to reopen it, as it symbolized Palestinian claims to sovereignty in East Jerusalem.

On security, the document expresses EU willingness to play a role in Israeli-Palestinian security arrangements, mainly by sending policemen, soldiers or civilians to help train Palestinian security forces or to supervise implementation of a final-status agreement.

Regarding the refugees, the document says an "agreed, just, fair and realistic" solution must be found, adding that the EU would be willing to help establish and operate an international mechanism to compensate and rehabilitate Palestinian refugees.

The document praises the PA for having greatly improved security in the West Bank, and therefore concludes that Israel must transfer additional large swathes of this territory to Palestinian security control. "During the coming period, Palestinian security presence should be expanded beyond cities," it says.

In addition, it notes, the EU "expects a complete freeze of all settlement activities including natural growth, including in East Jerusalem ... The EU will continue to send clear messages to Israel and examine practical ways to exert more influence on these issues, including on goods from settlements.

96 Naso Tang  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:08:25pm

All this talk of politics, strategies, negotiations, concessions and other things that reasonably civilized cultures do, ignores the politically incorrect taboo that Allah doesn't like Jews.

That is why Sadat died, and why the mosques will always preach war.

97 opinionated  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:10:17pm

re: #95 ps2

[Link: haaretz.com...]

so where does this fit in?

It fits in perfectly with thousands of years when Europeans wished the Jews would just die.

98 ps2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:06pm

re: #97 opinionated

Bingo

99 opinionated  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:39pm

Don't think that when POS Olmert is gone the damage he did will go with him.

A 'Jewish" columnist hitching a ride on Olmert's views tells Hillary and Obama that they must pressure Israel because Israel does not know what is in their best interests and needs tough love.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

100 Iron Fist  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:09pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

They take co-dependance to an entirely new level. I have to admit that I don't understand why. The Enemy are trying to kill them. They commit atrocities against themselves to further the propaganda war against Israel. They dehumanize themselves to the point that even one's children are valued for their potential to be living guidance systems for bombs.

I don't see how you negiotiate with that. It's like asking if the sun is up, and getting the reply that Spot is a good dog. In Sanskrit.

There not only is no ground to build a foundation on, one side is totally hostile to the very idea of peace. It's not even hostilities with any real goals or pathways to any progress. The Palestinians revel in the destruction for the sake of it. If the Jews went away tomorrow, the violence would still be carried out. Hell, they'd blame the Jews for leaving them with an unmanagable quasi-state in bad disrepair, when they are the ones who caused it all.

The Israelis have done more, accepted more, died more than any nation has the right to expect of them. And still it is not enough. It will never be enough.

101 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:47pm

re: #35 Ben Hur

Bush to Olmert: Why are you giving Syria the Golan for nothing?

What, what? Did someone take away Bush's Ambien?

102 Ps2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:16:21pm

re: #99 opinionated

given the people Obama has apointed--Powers, Rice, Jones, Hillary et.al, Israel faces grave days ahead.

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem...Psalm 122

103 opinionated  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:22:25pm

re: #102 Ps2

given the people Obama has apointed--Powers, Rice, Jones, Hillary et.al, Israel faces grave days ahead.

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem...Psalm 122

Israel always faces tough times. Who they elect and how that leader stands up is the issue.

They went delusional and voted for Olmert and Kadima. Now they have to prove that they are capable of learning from their mistakes.

104 NY Nana  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:25:54pm

Moshe 'Boogy' Ya'alon rocks!

He understands the enemy all too well.

105 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:32:50pm

Excellent article. I'm printing it out for a thorough reading.

I've never heard of Azure Magazine before. Seems to be a very serious and broadly engaged publication. There are articles about Nietzsche, I.B. Singer, Theodor Herzl, the Book of Job, Isaiah Berlin, Franz Rosenzweig, Cato and Caesar (!) and on and on.

I may have to subscribe.

106 USBeast  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:23pm

Islam is Islam. Islam is forbidden by Allah to accept the existence of Israel. Middle East peace is a myth until Muslims say: "Ya know, maybe Ol' Mo' wasn't as infallible as he said he was."

That is not going to happen any time soon. There is going to be a helluva lot more stupid, useless bloodshed. The blood will be on the hands of Islam and Islam will lick its fingers.

107 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:38:19pm

re: #91 yochanan

VERY OFF TOPIC
filed under spreading the wealth around
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

the ring George soros bought.

108 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:40:17pm

re: #100 Iron Fist

Why I refer to the Palestinians as "eternal victims".
It's hard to give that up.

109 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:47:20pm

OK Everyone -

Why did OSLO Fail? - For all intents and purposes, OSLO failed because the P.A. Leadership, "Ringo Starr"/a/k/a Arafat (Not Nya-Fat), included, were thieves and NOT to be trusted. Like Fidel Castro y Ruz in CUBA they represented real grievances (We WILL talk about the Sephardic Exile of about the SAME number, at the same time, at another time, a/k/a JEWS EXILED FROM MUSLIM MAJORITY NATIONS - Like Iraq, Syria, Egypt, AND Ethiopia!).
The WORLD - a la John Kerry - was ready to give "PALESTINE" a Favored Place in the World. So was I at the time. I recognized their cause, as explained, to be a "Second Zionism" in the Land. Being a Zionist, I could recognize a "Second Movement" along the same lines and embrace it. We were/are cousins at the most distant. I cried and rooted for the first P.A. Team in the Olympics. Thought it was the beginning of the end of emnity, that rooting for Israel OR Palestine was rooting for the the Home Team in a World Series as if the difference were between the National and American Leagues in a city that had one of each.
Those days are at least "Bar-Mitzvah" OVER. I wish the "Palestinian Arab" well. I wish his/her Leadership - HELL!

-S-

110 sultan_knish  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:10pm

It's a very well written paper, but once you get through the 90 percent of it that details how everything done over the last 15 years has failed, Yaalon has nothing to offer but a scaled down version of the same thing.

Business investment for Palestinian Arab areas, reduce checkpoints, demand reforms from the PA which they won't carry out and the same bill of goods we've been sold for the last 15 years.

In other words, the Politics of Failure have Failed, we must make them work again.

Yaalon should have listened to his own opening premise. When the train is going the wrong way, you stop the train and get off.

111 Toonman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:10pm

re: #110 sultan_knish

He did say that instead of rewarding the PA before they do anything, the PA should only be rewarded after accomplishing some of the items on the list....


Other than that, it was well written, but damn it was long.

112 FQ Kafir  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:23pm
The anti-Israel and antisemitic propaganda in the Palestinian press is an alarming phenomenon, but the incitement that pervades the Palestinian educational system is a greater cause of concern.

Farfour and Nahoul are very mad about this article.

113 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:56:30pm

re: #109 Dr. Shalit

Reply to Self -

An effective - and otherwise crooked - politician should limit themselves to stealing about five (5) percent of the action. The tithe (10%) belongs to Ha-Shem and the poor. When all 'ya'all go beyond that - stuff happens.

-S-

114 yochanan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:15pm

re: #95 ps2

f''' the euro trash S.S.D.D.

115 Kaos Hiker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:53pm

The big misunderstanding with the whole Israel,Pali. conflict is this. The World thinks the Pali`s only want the occupied land back. I.E. The West bank/Gaza/Golan. But to the Arabs and Palistinians The whole country of Israel is the Occupied Territory. They want it all. Therefore I really do not see a resolution to this ever.

116 Sand Panda  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:27:01pm

re: #110 sultan_knish

I agree with you - it was certainly a well written article and as a piece of analysis summarising almost everything wrong with the peace process I couldn't fault it. However, until reading your post I couldn't quite put my finger on what seemed so disappointing about the author's own proposals for peace. I'm afraid that you've hit the nail on the head with the phrase "scaled-down version of the same thing."

117 twincitiesgirl  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:37:22pm
Instead of trying to achieve historical change “from the top down,” exaggerating the importance of declarations handed down to the masses as if from the peak of a diplomatic Mount Olympus, we should adopt a new, more pragmatic policy that promotes change “from the bottom up.” Such a strategy should seek to establish stability and security first, to be followed only later—and perhaps after a great lapse of time—by peace.

This is the second time in as many days I've heard the call for change from the bottom up.* This comes by changing individual perceptions, building trust and finding areas of mutual agreement. It's very hard work and a long process as he pointed out, but it's the best hope of finding stability in this region.

*The president of a Christian university said something similar when asked about Christian activism. He believes that change should begin from the ground up. He said change in any society begins by changing individual opinions and building consensus over shared values/concerns. Not by trying to impose your religious beliefs on political parties.

118 sultan_knish  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:40:56pm

re: #111 Toonman

He did say that instead of rewarding the PA before they do anything, the PA should only be rewarded after accomplishing some of the items on the list....


Other than that, it was well written, but damn it was long.

That's not a new approach either. And it doesn't work. Once you agree on a reward, you wind up having to give it regardless of whether the PA complies or not... thanks to international pressure

119 sultan_knish  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:43:06pm

re: #116 Sand Panda

I agree with you - it was certainly a well written article and as a piece of analysis summarising almost everything wrong with the peace process I couldn't fault it. However, until reading your post I couldn't quite put my finger on what seemed so disappointing about the author's own proposals for peace. I'm afraid that you've hit the nail on the head with the phrase "scaled-down version of the same thing."

It's a fundamental failing of politicians, even when they can state the problem, their solution involves a minor twist on the same old approach, presented as a bold new approach

As far as the Oslo Train is concerned, anything that doesn't involve getting off the train, means you're still headed to the same destination.

120 jordash1212  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:46:15pm

This is a great article. Thanks for posting.

121 J.S.  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:00:05pm

I have a far more cynical, if not pessimistic, appraisal of "What's wrong with the Palestinians?" (typcially asked by starry-eyed Leftists) which precludes "peace"...I believe it has to do with cultural values...it's endemic and can't be blamed on "it's the leaders!" -- after all, Arafat was a "hero" (as are many, many other terrorist murderers) and these "values" aren't going to change any time soon...(i view it as major obstacles -- and no "outsider" can change it -- and it has its variants throughout the Arab/Muslim world)...(i also don't give "democracy" much hope, either...)

122 Biff  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:59pm

As Zombie wrote:
"Extreme Islam is basically an organized cult of sociopathic serial killers."

The Palestinians are an extremely virulent strain of Extreme Islam.

123 WrathofG-d  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 10:35:51pm

"extreme Islam"....that's cute.

Read the Koran.
(its not all bad...but the term "extreme Islam" is a bit silly)

124 VictorK  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 12:42:00am

"No dialogue can succeed and no reforms will be possible so long as the Palestinians—and Arabs in general—believe that the Jewish state can be subdued by force. The American historian Daniel Pipes has correctly noted that it is not despair that encourages extremism among the Palestinians, but rather the hope and belief that the Zionist state can be defeated.62 If Israel hesitates to use overwhelming military force against the swelling abscess of terrorism in Gaza, its enemies may get the impression that its stamina is eroding and that it can be pushed into a corner. Such a perception of Israel poses a greater threat than any rocket attack and must be immediately rectified."
-Ya'alon

"Jabotinsky's analysis of the Arabs' attitude led him to state categorically, "A voluntary agreement between us and the Arabs of Palestine is inconceivable now or in the foreseeable future." As most moderate Zionists had already found out, there was not the slightest chance of gaining the agreement of the Palestine Arabs to turn Palestine into a country with a Jewish majority. This was because they regarded their country as their national homeland and wanted to remain its sole owners. Jabotinsky turned sharply against those Zionists who portrayed Palestine Arabs either as fools who could be easily deceived by a watered-down version of Zionist objectives or as a tribe of mercenaries ready to give up their right to a country in exchange for economic advantage: "Every indigenous people," he wrote, "will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement. This is how the Arabs will behave and go on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can prevent 'Palestine' from becoming the Land of Israel."
-Avi Shlaim's "The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World", pg 13

Is there any doubt that Shlaim is one of the pre-eminent historians of Israel? Ya'alon isn't proposing anything new. Ze'ev Jabotinsky made the same arguments before Israel had even been founded. The Zionists weren't idiots, they knew full well that the indigenous Arabs weren't going to be all that pleased to learn that European Jews were colonizing their land. Realists like Jabotinsky knew that talk of peace with the people that they were planning to divest of their national rights was foolish, you only did that after you'd erected an Iron Wall which made any resistance utterly futile. Then, with their backs broken, you dictated the terms of peace. That's how you build a colonial state.

There's a reason Shlaim calls Jabotinsky the spiritual father of the Israeli right. Ya'alon fits perfectly into that history of stunning prowess but scant progress. But that said there's some truth to what he said about the need for reform among the Palestinians before peace is possible. But by the same token the main obstacle to peace is the occupation. It is impossible to understand any aspect of this conflict without recognizing the fact that the State of Israel is not exceptional, it is yet another colonial state. The Zionists knew it, debated it. They were no dummies, they had no illusions about what they were doing. But it seems that we have since forgotten, or chosen to ignore it in favor of a more pleasant, easier to understand narrative which renders any kind of critical thought unnecessary.

125 Cutty Sark  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 4:15:02am

Critical thought is indeed lacking , and that type of thought reveals the unambiguous conclusion that there will be no peace . And this is due not only to hatred inculcated in past, present ,AND future generations of Palestinians , but religious invocation and licence given to the universal desire amongst all muslims and arabs that the only solution is for Israel to disappear .
This is a notion , western minds can not easily grasp , and thus sides are taken for poltical expedience and social convenience ......[no"critical thought " there . There is an ideology supporting , driving and approving such expectations and goals , that are imbedded in the Palestinian mindset . And by ANY means will they seek to achieve it , NOTHING is unacceptable in the attanment of that goall.
Israel is and has been roughly divided in half ,with those who think "reason " can rule the situation and make realistic negociation a possibility , and those who simply know better . The lines of this divide grow more defined as time goes on .
Time and again the Palestinians prove the latter right . If human behavior and words are any indication of intention ,then the bitter reality is obvious . No Palestinian State is likely whilst the present mindset of muslims and arabs persist . And that is because any "peace agreement " on their part , is qualified by the ultimate end being Israels destruction by any means .

It is therefore "convenient " for western minds to hold , that reason will rule ...an utter error in thinking, when there is TRULY only one side that actually wants peacefull coexistence . This is the delusion of the west , that seeks to impose it's own thinking on a situattion that defies their own reasoning , yet they insist , that their thinking will succeed in solving this dilemna .

126 Drider  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 4:16:42am

I am so tiered of any article that mentions Israel and Pals at war, war has not yet occured which is why we are still even talking about this deal.
If there was a war, a true war, such as Israel's neighboring Countries attacking and "winning" the war, Israeli's would be dust....as the Palastinians should be, given every rule in the game about brining war down upon ones people....they have done it in spades and not had to suffer defeat, so there is NO war.

Getting off the Pals subject, we need to be looking at what happened in India via Islamists comming out of Pakistan who may or may not have been trained by the Pak government....and it doesn't matter.

Pakistan by rights should now at this time be pulverized by the Indian government being the terrorists, exactly like the USA and Afghanistan, were trained,supplied and assisted by some "unknown" entity in Pakistan....it should be war.

I say to you that this 10-15 man commando squad that attacked India is simply a tiny test run of things to come for when Iran has their nukes up and running.
At that point it will be hundreds of terrorists attacking many civilized nations on a weekly, monthly, basis as opposed to 10-15 holding a city hostage for 3 days....That tiny test was successful beyond a terrorists wildest dreams, especially if India and Pakistan don't go to war....It's show time.

127 Yackums  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 6:15:50am

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Cato, and everyone -

Azure is simply a great magazine; I think it should be required reading for Jews (its subtitle being Ideas for the Jewish Nation) and Lizards (including non-Jewish Lizards) alike. Many articles from back issues are on their web site, AzureOnline.
I'd highly recommend everyone here learning about and supporting its publisher, the Shalem Center in Jerusalem; perhaps the only non-Lefty-dominated think tank in Israel. They do amazing work, including (but by no means limited to) the translation of major political writings into Hebrew, so that the non-English-speaking Israeli populace can be exposed for the first time to works like The Federalist or de Tocqueville's Democracy in America.
They are also launching an undergraduate college soon.

Disclaimer: I have no connection with Azure or the Shalem Center, just a big fan.

128 CLLRusso  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 6:47:00am

As a long-time fan of this man, General Ya'alon. He truly became my hero when he risked his career by standing against the disengagement, and was fired. Tells me he stands by his beliefs and that I am now in good company. I was so naive I hoped dumping Gaza would pacify the worst of the Palestinians! And at least it would show the world they never intend there to be peace in Israel until they have destroyed the Jewish state. Ya'alon argued against it and he was so right.

129 albigensian  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 7:18:32am

Hamas has said often enough that it is not interested in getting a better deal from Israel-- its only interest is in eliminating Israel.

Indeed, it is not in Hamas' interest to get a better deal from Israel, because, the more conditions in Gaza and the West Bank deteriorate, the more support Hamas receives for eliminating Israel. (If this were not so, then surely those living in the "refugee camps" would have been resettled by now?)

In short, the near-term goal of the "peace process"-- to increase trust-- cannot be achieved so long as everyone knows that the ultimate aim of one of the parties is the elimination of the other.

130 Grumpy  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 7:45:39am

Talk about a mensch.
On my bedside table sits a personally encribed copy of Azure (Spring 5766/2006) with the words:

Dear .......,
Enclosed the Shalem Center's quarterly with one of my articles.
Kind regards
Lt.Gen.(ret) Moshe Yaalon.
.......... (brothers friend)

You see, we know him on kibbutz ...... as our friend 'Bogey' (can use the name as it has already appeared in other articles).
A man of enormous intellectual capacity and a proud warrior when required.

131 flyovercountry  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 8:17:01am

the sad truth is this. A lasting peace has never been established through diplomatic means. There is not one single example in human history of this occurring. Israel's problem is that she is surrounded by over a billion enemies who worship death. Israel should give them what they worship. the OSLO accords were a joke to begin with, as are all, "negotiations," with the Palestinian Authority. As General Patton intimated, Wars are won by killing the enemy and destroying his will and ability to fight. Israel needs to accept that the world will continue to hold Israel under a different microscope. Fight this enemy without worrying so much about what world opinion will be. World opinion will be against Israel regardless.

132 J. Lichty  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 8:59:28am

Agree with Sultan Knish - Yaalon's prescription - more of the same is a problem and will not lead to a solution.

The best case for his scenario is simply slowing down the train, not getting off.

While one can hope that the Palestinians build institutions of civil society, his support for arming and traning the Palestinian Army, hoping that Fatah is stronger than Hamas and his woeful praise of Fayyad. Understand that he is in a campaign right now, but if this is what the right has to offer, sigh.

133 nature boy  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 9:24:33am

re: #16 WrathofG-d

Above all, it is not decency or goodness of gentleness that impresses the Middle East, but strength.

How does the Bible describe Ishmael? Ahh, yes... "He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him" (Genesis 16).

134 J.S.  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 12:04:36pm

re: #124 VictorK

Sooo, what's your definition of "colonial"? How on earth do you figure that Israel is a "colonizing" power? Have you ever read about Colonial Europe? Do you grasp who it was that fought against a Colonial Power (namely, Britain) in Palestine prior to 1948? Is that "news" to you?

Avi Shlaim is not a "right winger." Shlaim is a revisionist "historian" (that last term is a stretch of the definition of "historian" -- "propagandist" might be more accurate.) And, o yeah, hìs `scholarship` such that it is comes from Britain -- o Surprise!

Here`s what Camera.org states at their web site: `

Shlaim is one of the so-called “new historians,” whose stock in trade is blaming Israel for all the ills of the Middle East, and specifically for the alleged mass expulsion of Palestinians during the Israeli War of Independence in 1948-49. Shlaim’s particular hobby horse is that Jordan and Israel colluded to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. The tendency of Shlaim and other “new historians” to fabricate and distort in the service of their political agenda was most fully exposed in Professor Efraim Karsh’s Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians (Frank Cass & Co, Ltd. London, 2000).
135 drj  Tue, Dec 2, 2008 8:48:21pm

Serious question to my fellow lizards....

Is anyone else GREATLY concerned that Obama will turn against Israel? Maybe not right away, but eventually, forcing them to return to pre 1967 borders, including Jerusalem?

It scares me a great deal....particularly since Obama, being an appeaser, will likely believe the tall-tale that if only Israel would return to pre 67 borders and give up Jerusalem, that we will finally achieve "peace in the Middle East"

136 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 2:33:56pm

test.

137 EE  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:13:10pm

There are at least two important aspects to war: capabilities and intentions. Those who advocate that Israel should expel 500,000 Jews from east Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and that Israel should return to June 4 1967, completely ignore the change that this would produce in Palestinian capabilities to harm Israel and Israelis, and are very confused and dead wrong about Palestinian intentions.

Besides being a human rights disaster -- no less a disaster than if 500,000 Arabs were expelled from their homes and communities -- it would increase Arab capabilities -- and perceived Arab capabilities -- of inflicting harm on Israel and on Israelis. It would give Israel a territorial neck only 9 miles wide, which would suggest new possibilities to the Arabs just as happened in the days before the June 1967 war. It would put much of the population of Israel in firing range of rockets and and missiles from the Palestinian Arabs. It would reduce the number of survivors of an Iranian nuke attack on Tel Aviv and Haifa, by bringing many of those possible survivors closer to the two ground zeros.

The confusion about Palestinian Arab, and Arab and Muslim intentions toward Israel is a failure to understand that the perceived opportunity to do harm to Israel is the great motivator for war and terrorism and nuking Israel. Therefore, while actual capabilities are of the utmost importance, perceived capabilities are next in importance since they are the great motivator for war, terrorism, and WMD against Israel. Perceived capabilities, not the words put down on paper or the interpretation given to these words by The New York Times, are the important thing in motivating Israel's enemies to new actions against Israel.

The removal of 500,000 Jews from east Jerusalem, from Judea, and from Samaria, and Israel's return to June 4 1967, would not bring peace. It would bring new warfare, new terrorism, more dangerous rocket and missile fire, and a more inviting target for Iranian nukes.


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