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Jindal: Political Meteor or Meteorite?

Politics | Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:40:43 pm PST

Is Bobby Jindal the next Barack Obama?

No less an aspiring kingmaker than Steve Schmidt, the chief strategist of McCain’s failed presidential bid, sees Jindal as the Republican Party’s destiny. “The question is not whether he’ll be president, but when he’ll be president, because he will be elected someday.” The anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist believes, too, that Jindal is a certainty to occupy the White House, and conservative talk-radio host Rush Limbaugh has described him as “the next Ronald Reagan.”

Jindal is, above all else, a political meteor, sharing Obama’s precocious skills for reaching the firmament in a hurry. It was just four years ago, after losing a gubernatorial election, that he won election to Congress, and only this year that he became Louisiana’s governor, the first nonwhite to hold the office since Reconstruction. And now, 10 months into his first term, the talk of a presidential bid is getting louder among his boosters.

... or the next William Jennings Bryan?

The record is still evolving, like the rest of him. But social conservatives like what they have heard about the public and private Jindal: his steadfast opposition to abortion without exceptions; his disapproval of embryonic stem cell research; his and his wife Supriya’s decision in 1997 to enter into a Louisiana covenant marriage that prohibits no-fault divorce in the state; and his decision in June to sign into law the Louisiana Science Education Act, a bill heartily supported by creationists that permits public school teachers to educate students about both the theory of “scientific design” and criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary concepts.

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1293 comments

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1 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:42:26pm
2 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:43:21pm

If he is it for 2012... We will get slaughtered.

3 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:44:32pm

Running for cover under a religious umbrella is not going to fly anymore for the Republicans.

4 MJ  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:44:44pm

Grover Norquist...

'nough said.

5 Charles  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:44:46pm

Notice the Washington Post's little zinger: "The record is still evolving."

6 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:45:32pm

re: #5 Charles

Notice the Washington Post's little zinger: "The record is still evolving."

I was just going to ask if that was intended.

7 jwpaine  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:46:05pm

re: #2 NYCHardhat

If he is it for 2012... We will get slaughtered.

Oh yes indeedy. If the GOP doesn't get that "social conservatism" out of its system, the fiscal conservatives are gonna find another party.

8 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:46:50pm

re: #5 Charles

Just like Pres-elect Barack Obama's campaign promises are.

9 LoFlyer  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:47:04pm

What is the issue Charles? Jindal obviously supports educational debate of both theories. If Evolution is a strong theory, it will withstand the debate with flying colors!

10 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:47:11pm

re: #7 jwpaine

Oh yes indeedy. If the GOP doesn't get that "social conservatism" out of its system, the fiscal conservatives are gonna find another party.

Which one?

11 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:48:19pm

I certainly won't vote for Jindal. Go ahead and nominate him. He won't win.

12 jwpaine  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:49:38pm

re: #10 NYCHardhat

Which one?

The beer party.

13 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:49:45pm

re: #5 Charles

Notice the Washington Post's little zinger: "The record is still evolving."

And not well, in my opinion, although many folks here love him.
I am sorely disappointed, for his support of the "Education Freedom" act, but also for several other things as well.

14 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:49:47pm

re: #9 LoFlyer

The debate ended a long time ago. Should we also entertain debates about returning the periodic table of elements to include earth,water,air and fire?

15 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:49:52pm

Even if Obama makes every possible mistake and gets every position and policy bassackwards, they will just blame it on Bush and the aura of "The One" will not be diminished one candle watt. I know 4 years is a long time from now, but it's hard to unseat an incumbent, and I do not see anyone coming from the Republicans that is up to the task. Palin is too polarizing, Jindal is unknown right now, but I think he is similar to Palin in many ways. It will be harder for the left to launch a mega smear job like they did on poor old Sarah, because he is not white (sad, but true). But, the left will pull out his religious beliefs and beat him over the head with them until he cannot be elected.

16 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:51:26pm

re: #13 reine.de.tout

He is failing on many grounds. He almost was recalled recently for signing an exorbitant pay raise for the legislature. He's not a very good reformer.

17 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:51:29pm

re: #12 jwpaine

I'm a beer card carrying member.

18 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:51:47pm

The Dem's found a superstar!
We need a superstar!
The Dem's found a candidate of color!
We need a candidate of color!
The Dem's got a guy with questionable beliefs!
We need a guy with questionable beliefs!

/see where I'm goin' with this

19 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:51:50pm

"No less an aspiring kingmaker than Steve Schmidt, the chief strategist of McCain’s failed presidential bid, sees Jindal as the Republican Party’s destiny."

We knew Schmidt was a loser, now we know why.

20 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:52:20pm

re: #15 Desert Dog

Even if Obama makes every possible mistake and gets every position and policy bassackwards, they will just blame it on Bush and the aura of "The One" will not be diminished one candle watt. I know 4 years is a long time from now, but it's hard to unseat an incumbent, and I do not see anyone coming from the Republicans that is up to the task. Palin is too polarizing, Jindal is unknown right now, but I think he is similar to Palin in many ways. It will be harder for the left to launch a mega smear job like they did on poor old Sarah, because he is not white (sad, but true). But, the left will pull out his religious beliefs and beat him over the head with them until he cannot be elected.

How is Jinal similar to Palin?

21 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:52:45pm

Jindal was a direct response to the idiocy that was Kathleen Blanco.

22 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:53:14pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

He is failing on many grounds. He almost was recalled recently for signing an exorbitant pay raise for the legislature. He's not a very good reformer.

Could the pay raise be a quid for their quo passing the creationism bill?

23 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:53:19pm

re: #15 Desert Dog
The Left? Apparently, the right is beginning to give "social conservatives" (translate: Christians) the cold shoulder as well.

24 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:53:23pm

re: #12 jwpaine

The beer party.

I like it.

25 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:54:16pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

He is failing on many grounds. He almost was recalled recently for signing an exorbitant pay raise for the legislature. He's not a very good reformer.

And that was after running for office on a promise of "no legislative pay raises".

btw, he ended up vetoing the pay raise anyway, once it became apparent that the public was very angry about the pay raise.

He "didn't know" there would be such controversy. How did he not know? He should have known that. He keeps himself surrounded by people who keep him isolated.

In the end - the public was angry, the legislators were angry - everybody was angry. No one was well-served by that episode. It should not have happened.

26 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:54:25pm

re: #22 MandyManners

Could the pay raise be a quid for their quo passing the creationism bill?

I don't think the two were connected, there was already plenty of support for the "Academic freedom" bill already.

27 MarkX  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:54:31pm
No less an aspiring kingmaker than Steve Schmidt, the chief strategist of McCain’s failed presidential bid, sees Jindal as the Republican Party’s destiny. “

The kiss of death.

28 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:54:39pm

Oh boy. 2012 Bobby Jindal and Sarah Palin. Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Democrats.

29 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:54:53pm

re: #22 MandyManners

Could the pay raise be a quid for their quo passing the creationism bill?

He ended vetoing the pay raise. See:
re: #25 reine.de.tout

30 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:55:48pm

If the GOP had backed Newt for president long ago, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Maybe they'll wise up before the next run.

31 MarkX  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:55:55pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

LOL

32 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:56:24pm

re: #28 kansas

It's going to take a while for new faces and ideas to emerge in the GOP. We are looking at 8 years of Obama, maybe Republicans will wise up by then.

33 druik  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:56:28pm

Newsflash: You're going to need the Religious Right to get another Republican in the White House, at leasts barring a >major< shift in the electorate.

This Jindal guy looks to be the most dynamic of the upcoming generation of GOP statesmen, so at least give him the benefit of the doubt when he is trying to govern a deeply religious (Louisiana counties= parishes) state.

34 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:56:47pm

re: #7 jwpaine

This makes me want to bang my head against the closest wall. Jindal is NOT our answer for a number of reasons. We need to embrace the values of Reagan if we want our party back, and Reagan WAS a socon. We just need a much better understanding of what that term means. Read this article, please:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

35 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:56:55pm

If Bobby Jindal is the best the GOP can offer up, then we have a leadership crisis. I know we can do better; anti-intellectualism isn't a codified policy set.

36 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:57:13pm

Scientists have learned - meteors make craters.

Quiz: The Meteor Crater outside of Flagstaff, Arizona is

a) 50,000 years old, as established by dating the trace radioactive decay from the event.

b) 5,000 years old when created by God, who sprinkled the area with partly decayed material so as to head fake future humans in a cruel effort to undermine faith in creationism.

37 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:57:55pm

Is the creationism bill or whatever the hell it is teach creationism as science or as an alternative scientific theory? Damn that is worded crappy, sorry. Aiso is that YEC stuff?

38 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:57:58pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

I don't think the two were connected, there was already plenty of support for the "Academic freedom" bill already.

I find that very sad.

39 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:58:08pm

re: #35 ClosetConservative


anti-intellectualism isn't a codified policy set.


Unfortunately it has become a mainstay of conservative politics.

40 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

I really hope you are wrong. So far, Barry hasn't knocked the socks off of those in his OWN party, much less impressed those of us who are convinced he is a failure waiting to happen.

41 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:58:43pm

re: #35 ClosetConservative

The democrats have almost made it so, according to exit and post-election interviews with Obama voters on their knowledge of the candidate they put in office.
Their level of understanding? Next to nada.

42 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:59:06pm

re: #30 tradewind

If the GOP had backed Newt for president long ago, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Maybe they'll wise up before the next run.

Newt was Borked just like Palin. He wouldn't have been President. And as far as I can tell, what with the media, neither will any other Republican for the next 50 years.

43 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:59:10pm

re: #29 reine.de.tout

He ended vetoing the pay raise. See:
re: #25 reine.de.tout

I'd forgotten.

How smart is he if he thought the voters would either forget or let him do what he wanted? Or, is it a matter not of intelligence but of ethics?

44 MarkX  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:59:23pm

re: #30 tradewind

If the GOP had backed Newt for president long ago, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Maybe they'll wise up before the next run.

Sorry, Newt wasn't the answer.

He was good for what he did, build up a weak GOP, on the congressional level, and win the House. Anything beyond that is over his pay grade.

45 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 5:59:40pm

re: #41 tradewind

They knew he looked great behind podiums and in front of columns. What else do you need?

/////

46 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:00:12pm

re: #34 ArmyWife
Dinged you up for that. RWR brand conservatism works every time. Not this diluted crap the party "leadership" keeps pushing.

47 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:00:15pm

re: #40 ArmyWife

Actually, so far I'm very impressed with Obama. His staffing picks have largely been practical level headed folks. If I knew he was capable of being sane and moderate I might have voted for him.

48 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:00:43pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I certainly won't vote for Jindal. Go ahead and nominate him. He won't win.

Did you vote in the last election?

49 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:00:47pm

re: #20 MandyManners

They are both fiscally conservative new Governors. They are both fairly religious. They are both new to the scene. They are both "non-old white guys", which, unfortunately, is a rarity in the Republican party. They both favor lower taxes and limited government (when it suits them). They are both prolife. They are both "outsiders" and not part of the Washington scene.

I will give Jindal the advantage in speaking ability. He is very well spoken and comes across as very intelligent when he speaks, the same way a certain formerly unknown Senator from Illinios does. Sarah Palin is a rockstar right now, but she polls like Hillary, 50% love - 50% unadulterated hate. I do not think she can make it 4 years from now and be the top of the ticket. I think she has reached her zenith already.

50 yochanan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:00:53pm

off topic
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

51 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:01:12pm

re: #33 druik

Newsflash: You're going to need the Religious Right to get another Republican in the White House, at leasts barring a >major< shift in the electorate.

This Jindal guy looks to be the most dynamic of the upcoming generation of GOP statesmen, so at least give him the benefit of the doubt when he is trying to govern a deeply religious (Louisiana counties= parishes) state.

He gets NO benefit of my doubt after allowing non-science to be taught in public schools' science classes. None.

52 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:01:36pm

re: #42 kansas

Take heart. Clinton and his triple sweep ushered in the Republican Revolution, of which they unfortunately failed to take advantage . Maybe they will have learned something.
Whoever is president in this particular cycle will have to be superman to be successful, so Republicans should be getting it together now.

53 traderjoe9  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:01:41pm

As long as there is no embryonic stem cell research.

54 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:01:48pm

re: #46 pingjockey

Thanks!

55 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:05pm

re: #50 yochanan

off topic
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

No more fist bumps with that baby!

56 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:09pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Actually, so far I'm very impressed with Obama. His staffing picks have largely been practical level headed folks. If I knew he was capable of being sane and moderate I might have voted for him.

Yeah, and he already brought the gas prices down, and he's Abe Lincoln and FDR before he takes office. I particularly like Eric Holder. Maybe Osama Bin Laden will get a pardon./

57 TaeJohnDo  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:23pm

re: #6 gclaghorn

I was just going to ask if that was intended.

As much as we pun? Heck yeah it was intentional!

58 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:30pm

How the GOP Can Take Back the Youth Vote

We need to emphasize the elements of conservatism that empower the individual, expand liberty, and defend freedom. We need to break down issues like earmarks into simple terms, and explain that it’s not about changing the rules in the Senate. It’s about fixing our government and building a future without debt, a future with strong American consumers making individual decisions. We need to talk about the elements of conservatism that create a strong culture, instead of talking about the “inside baseball” issues surrounding the Supreme Court. We need an ambassador to the idealists just as John McCain or Mitt Romney were ambassadors to the pragmatists who focused on policy solutions but not public relations solutions. To win the youth, conservatism needs to become “sexy” again, and we have to start talking about issues in a way that shows that they matter to my generation.

We don’t have to dumb down our agenda or abandon our principles for populist rhetoric, but we need a strategy that convinces people they need to vote for America’s future, and that the Republican Party isn’t the party of old ideas or “rich white guys.”

59 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:34pm

We will lose in 2010 and see 8 years of Obama if we continue to obssess over who's running in 2012. On the other hand if Jindal's our candidate in '12, I'll be voting libertarian or something and campaigning full time against him.

60 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:40pm

re: #49 Desert Dog

Good analysis.

61 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:40pm

re: #52 tradewind

To clarify a bad sentence, ' they'= the Republicans. PIMF.

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:02:48pm

re: #48 Hobbes

Nope, I stayed home.

63 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:03:21pm

I do believe our best bet is Michael Steele.

64 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:03:48pm

re: #43 MandyManners

I'd forgotten.

How smart is he if he thought the voters would either forget or let him do what he wanted? Or, is it a matter not of intelligence but of ethics?

He is unaware of what is going on. He keeps himself isolated, as I said. He listens to no one, except a few trusted folks.

The latest - one day after asking the state Civil Service Commission for 100 new appointive positions to be paid at $120,000+, he set a "hiring freeze" for rank and file state employees.

65 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:04:02pm

re: #49 Desert Dog
If Hillary and Sarah, who are ideologically polar opposites, poll with the same numbers, does this mean that America really isn't ready for a woman President?

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:04:35pm

re: #59 Thanos

I would like to vote Libertarian but they're too nutty. They end up looking like anarchists in suits. The Libertarian party has a lot of work to do before they will earn my vote.

67 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:04:58pm

I was thinking that it might be a good idea to become a Democrat and try to move the party to the right a bit. What the hell?re: #65 RubyTuesday

If Hillary and Sarah, who are ideologically polar opposites, poll with the same numbers, does this mean that America really isn't ready for a woman President?

I would say from they way they both were treated that's exactly what that means.

68 MarkX  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:11pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

I'm not so pessimistic... look where was Obama 5 years ago. 80% of America didn't know who he was...

The right guy/gal can emerge from "no where" with in the next four years. Chances are we've never heard of who will be the GOP candidate in '12.

The GOP definitely needs new blood.

69 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:13pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

He is unaware of what is going on. He keeps himself isolated, as I said. He listens to no one, except a few trusted folks.

The latest - one day after asking the state Civil Service Commission for 100 new appointive positions to be paid at $120,000+, he set a "hiring freeze" for rank and file state employees.

A serious lack of intelligence.

70 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:24pm

re: #65 RubyTuesday
I actually thought we'd have a woman as President before a black guy.

71 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:26pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

That's why I said "or something" ... it will depend on who they run.

72 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:44pm

re: #67 kansas

I was thinking that it might be a good idea to become a Democrat and try to move the party to the right a bit.


Interesting idea.

73 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:52pm

re: #45 ArmyWife

For starters, I'd have him get that mole thingy removed from the side of his nose, stat.
But then, I'm all about the deep core issues.

74 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:05:58pm

re: #40 ArmyWife

I really hope you are wrong. So far, Barry hasn't knocked the socks off of those in his OWN party, much less impressed those of us who are convinced he is a failure waiting to happen.

But, the MSM and over half the general public adore him.

75 VegasRick  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:06:30pm

re: #74 Hobbes

But, the MSM and over half the general public adore him.

For now.

76 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:06:41pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Interesting idea.

Yeah that worked well for Lieberman? Jeesh!

77 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:06:54pm

re: #67 kansas

We still have plenty of those down South where I live.
Doesn't help.
Well, maybe a little, on the local level.

78 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:07:38pm

re: #33 druik

Newsflash: You're going to need the Religious Right to get another Republican in the White House, at leasts barring a >major< shift in the electorate.

This Jindal guy looks to be the most dynamic of the upcoming generation of GOP statesmen, so at least give him the benefit of the doubt when he is trying to govern a deeply religious (Louisiana counties= parishes) state.

"Deeply religious," come on, more like deeply traditional, a lot like France, fancy churches, great cemeteries and themed holidays that come off more like a Bacchus celebration than a religious one. Graft and corruption that is legendary (and proud of it).

But "deeply religious," forget it.

79 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:07:40pm

re: #74 Hobbes

But, the MSM and over half the general public adore him.

Wait till he takes office and the Joe Biden prediction comes true, he gets tested, a bunch of us die, and he votes present. Pretty sure they might bitch about that a little. Unless the stock market goes up a lot that particular day.

80 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:07:40pm

re: #48 Hobbes

Did you vote in the last election?

He told us that he didn't.

81 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:07:42pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Really? You find Rahm Emanuel and Eric Holder sane and moderate? That is without commentary on his choice of Janet Napolitano and the virtuous Hillary Clinton. The only pick I am ok with thus far is Gates.

82 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:07:45pm

re: #75 VegasRick

For now.

The MSM will always adore him. They both live in the same sunshiny fantasy world.

83 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:07:48pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout
Obambi is in the proverbial between a rock and a hard place. He's getting what he considers experienced people for the real world and the kossaks and other lefty loons want their utopia NOW!

84 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:08:18pm

How is Barry's hawk-lite security team playing with the koskids and other assorted moonbats?

85 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:08:22pm

re: #70 pingjockey
Since so little of his genetics is African, I'll say, "....before a communist."

86 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:08:26pm

re: #33 druik

Newsflash: You're going to need the Religious Right to get another Republican in the White House, at leasts barring a >major< shift in the electorate.

Agreed. But a fellow believer who supports their cultural demands, without caving to them on magic, will be enough.

This Jindal guy looks to be the most dynamic of the upcoming generation of GOP statesmen, so at least give him the benefit of the doubt when he is trying to govern a deeply religious (Louisiana counties= parishes) state.

Uh, no. He's already earned a black mark for the "Science Education" Act. At this point it's up to him to redeem himself.

87 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:09pm

re: #85 RubyTuesday
Damn, that is more accurate for sure!

88 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:12pm

I would have loved Newt, he didn't run. I'm not for abandoning social conservatives but Jindal forced creationism on the schools and that is too big a deal to get him elected. That leaves Sarah, Huckabee, or Mitt, Giuliani won't have enough base support.

89 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:24pm

re: #78 Walter L. Newton
Broadbrushing again.

90 The Shadow Do  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:35pm

As much as the media would like to promote it, Jindal is not the future of the GOP. I have a hunch that a few years of Obama will lead a considerable number of people to rethink this whole fashionable youth thing. Depending on how bad it gets, yes even Newt could become viable.

91 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:40pm

re: #65 RubyTuesday

If Hillary and Sarah, who are ideologically polar opposites, poll with the same numbers, does this mean that America really isn't ready for a woman President?

I think a woman can win the Presidency now. All stops are off. That is one benefit of this past election. (Maybe the only one)

Hillary is hated with the same burning searing passion from the right as Palin is from the left. If we can find a less polarizing woman candidate, why couldn't she win? We just elected the least prepared, most radical person in modern history. After that, we can elect anyone from any background. And, that is way it should be, yes?

92 Truck Monkey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:59pm

re: #68 MarkX

I'm not so pessimistic... look where was Obama 5 years ago. 80% of America didn't know who he was...

The right guy/gal can emerge from "no where" with in the next four years. Chances are we've never heard of who will be the GOP candidate in '12.

The GOP definitely needs new blood.

I don't think we'll be looking for "no where" man after 4 years of "The One". We'll of had our fill of it by then.

93 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:09:59pm

Yoo hoo! LesLein, the phantom downdingleberry! Care to defend your choice of comments to slap, this time 'round? Might you agree with Jindal on "teaching the controversy"? Step on up and make your case!

...coward

94 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:10:03pm

re: #88 Rancher

Newt was asked the other day about a possible run in '12, and said he would be ' looking into it'.

95 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:10:16pm

In my view, the leadership of the GOP has underestimated the intelligence of its constituents. Conservatism is the ideology of nuance; it requires some economic and political knowledge to understand why what might appear to be "greed" (tax cuts for the top earners) benefits everyone. It also requires principle and a desire to learn to understand the reasoning behind the War in Iraq. There is material out there that defends the invasion succinctly and powerfully (War and Decision by Douglas J. Feith), but the Bush administration has done woefully little to promote and explain its decisions. Theoretically, a more informed electorate will tend to vote towards the right side of the political spectrum because they ought to be able to see through the economic policies of Congressional liberals, which as a rule of thumb means no codified policy at all.

The GOP needs to begin engaging their voters on a higher intellectual plane. Bobby Jindal is not the candidate to do that.

96 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:11:37pm

re: #84 tradewind

Here

97 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:11:46pm

re: #89 RubyTuesday

Broadbrushing again.

Don't bet on it. My mothers side of the family goes back to the 1600's in that area. Both Spanish and French. I'm rather familiar with both the people and the culture there.

98 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:11:55pm

Prefer him to Kat Blanco. Regardless of who the Republicans run in 2012 they will have detractors. Guess it depends on how much of an issue this has with the rest of the voters. Sort of like voters in Massachusetts voting for Teddy and returning him to office term after term, knowing that he effectively killed his pregnant girlfriend in a bout of (most likely) drunken driving.

99 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:11:55pm

re: #88 Rancher

I'll take Jindal over Huckabee any day of the week.

100 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:11:55pm

re: #93 Zimriel
I've been here over a year, how did you find the phantom down dinger?
Cripes, as much as I'm here you'd think I'd know that?!

101 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:12:17pm

The Republican party doesn't need a good candidate, they need a good vision for the future, not a laundry list of things they are against.

102 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:12:17pm

re: #91 Desert Dog

I hate to throw the cold water of reality on the Obama election, but, bi-racial as he may be in actuality , he was still elected because first and foremost, he was/ is seen as an African American. Never would have made it to the Senate in his district, never would have been nominated for democrat presidential run.

103 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:12:17pm

re: #93 Zimriel

Thank you for saying that. What a dweeb that person is.

104 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:12:58pm

re: #88 Rancher

I would have loved Newt, he didn't run. I'm not for abandoning social conservatives but Jindal forced creationism on the schools and that is too big a deal to get him elected. That leaves Sarah, Huckabee, or Mitt, Giuliani won't have enough base support.

I really like Newt too. But, he is a marked man from his days in the House. The Clinton machine chopped him down like a row of corn in October. He is super smart and a very good communicator. I would vote for him, no problem. But, he's kinda like Rudy.....there's not a skeleton in his closet, there's a graveyard.

105 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:12:59pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

You win the youth vote back by showing them how THEIR money goes away under a Dem regime - when you lay it out in black and white, it becomes rather eye opening. What is the quote? If you are conservative at 20 you have no heart, if you are not conservative at 30 you have no brain?

106 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:01pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Staying with Gates was great. I still wouldn't have voted for him but so far he looks like he is willing to abandon his base and many of his promises. If he turns out to be another Bill Clinton this country will be allot better off than if he is the Obama we thought we knew.

107 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:19pm

Why can't we just nominate Thomas Sowell and be done with it.

108 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:25pm

One thing I know is I'll take Louisiana's (or Alaska's) balance sheet over California's.

109 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:38pm

re: #102 tradewind

I hate to throw the cold water of reality on the Obama election, but, bi-racial as he may be in actuality , he was still elected because first and foremost, he was/ is seen as an African American. Never would have made it to the Senate in his district, never would have been nominated for democrat presidential run.

Of course he was....and, he used that to his advantage.

110 quickjustice  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:42pm

For Jindal to become a viable national candidate, he's going to have to backtrack on Intelligent Design. It'll be interesting to watch how and if he does that.

111 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:13:44pm

re: #91 Desert Dog
But don't we consider RWR "polarizing"? I mean, he was transparent with his beliefs and convictions, right? Hillary flipped and flopped around with the tides. At least Sarah was firm in her conservative convictions. Still, the negative numbers...

112 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:23pm

re: #106 Rancher

Jury is still out on the lightworker. He's picked up a nervous tic already and he hasn't assumed office.

113 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:25pm

#100 pingjockey, I caught it at MandyManners #51...

114 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:34pm

re: #104 Desert Dog

I really like Newt too. But, he is a marked man from his days in the House. The Clinton machine chopped him down like a row of corn in October. He is super smart and a very good communicator. I would vote for him, no problem. But, he's kinda like Rudy.....there's not a skeleton in his closet, there's a graveyard.

I like Newt as well - one of the few Socons I could vote for simply because he is able to talk about the future and where we should be going. This last election we ceded the future to the Dems.

115 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:47pm

re: #97 Walter L. Newton
I'm sure you are - each and every one of them.

116 VegasRick  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:14:53pm

re: #105 ArmyWife

You win the youth vote back by showing them how THEIR money goes away under a Dem regime - when you lay it out in black and white, it becomes rather eye opening. What is the quote? If you are conservative at 20 you have no heart, if you are not conservative at 30 you have no brain?

Churchill.

117 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:15:01pm

re: #106 Rancher

Staying with Gates was great. I still wouldn't have voted for him but so far he looks like he is willing to abandon his base and many of his promises. If he turns out to be another Bill Clinton this country will be allot better off than if he is the Obama we thought we knew.

So it will be the illusion of safety 1992-2000.

118 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:15:13pm

re: #101 Thanos

I can't see the Republican brand recovering, but my Pa says that I'm just young and naive.
I think we need to "Escape the Elephant."
If that sounds crazy, mind that I've been traveling all day.

119 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:15:21pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

True 'dat!

120 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:15:31pm

re: #88 Rancher

I would have loved Newt, he didn't run. I'm not for abandoning social conservatives but Jindal forced creationism on the schools and that is too big a deal to get him elected. That leaves Sarah, Huckabee, or Mitt, Giuliani won't have enough base support.

Hey Rancher! Nice seeing you..
A few months ago how many lizards had even heard of Sarah? We have time to develop great talent in the next couple of years...Bobby J. won't make it out of single A ball..

121 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:16:07pm

re: #102 tradewind
Perception not equaling reality is going to be a beyotch down the line.

122 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:16:13pm

re: #113 Zimriel
Nah, how do you know who did it? Since the coward isn't commenting?

123 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:16:28pm

re: #110 quickjustice

Obama shook off Black Liberation theology.... 20 years' worth. Jindal oughta be able to shed some creationism-in-the-schools with equal ease.

124 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:16:35pm

re: #111 RubyTuesday

But don't we consider RWR "polarizing"? I mean, he was transparent with his beliefs and convictions, right? Hillary flipped and flopped around with the tides. At least Sarah was firm in her conservative convictions. Still, the negative numbers...

The entire MFM were out to get her from the beginnng. Even the entertainment wing of the MFM went after her.

125 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:16:53pm

....Does Jindal smoke "Kools"?

126 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:29pm

re: #118 Bumr50

I can see it, the Republicans have recovered every time they needed to in the past. This is a new century and a new millenium, we need to get out of our last century speak and mentality. The Dems stole a march on us because we fought them as if they were the same old tired nihilists.

127 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:31pm

The republicans lost because they were democrats lite. Stick to Reaganism and conservative values (i.e. small government) and they will be returned to office. Don't, and they become a postscript in history. Drop the Rinos.

128 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:41pm

re: #110 quickjustice

For Jindal to become a viable national candidate, he's going to have to backtrack on Intelligent Design. It'll be interesting to watch how and if he does that.

"How" is important. If he doesn't go before Louisiana's legislature and demand they repeal that act, then he's not worthy of our respect. No-one will let him weasel out with "personal opposition but I had to play ball".

129 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:44pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Why can't we just nominate Thomas Sowell and be done with it.

Certainly be fun to watch the MSM destroy him. Sowell isn't very smart you know.//

130 quickjustice  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:51pm

It's way too early to start looking at candidates. I'd like to know that the GOP is evolving into a competent, honest party that knows how to rebuild an economy. McCain could not answer the question: "How do we help the economy recover?"

131 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:54pm

re: #106 Rancher

If he turns out to be another Bill Clinton this country will be allot better off than if he is the Obama we thought we knew.


Agreed. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

132 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:17:58pm

re: #124 MandyManners

The entire MFM were out to get her from the beginnng. Even the entertainment wing of the MFM went after her.

Saturday Night Live was particularly disgraceful. I once counted ten Palin snarks in one night and only one joke that hinted at an Obama snark.

133 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:01pm

re: #117 NYCHardhat

The rumor is that Warren Buffet and some other econ guru sat him down and said ' you're gonna have to focus everything on the economy.... give the country to the Clintons'.
Sad if true.

134 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:05pm

re: #105 ArmyWife

I agree, but don't think that they'll be "shown" in time for 2012.
I think that the standard of living must fall markedly yet.

135 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:08pm

The GOP needs a codified policy set that can be backed up with a million and one studies. No more pandering to its voters; the American people are smart enough to know good ideas when they see them. And they'll vote for them.

136 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:16pm

pingjockey, clicking the number pulls up the record

137 coquimbojoe  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:28pm

I think teaching ID or opening the door to it being taught in school is a problem. That being said, I am willing to not yet pass judgment on Jindal. I want to see how he handles a corrupt state like Louisiana. Give him a few years. He might be great, or he might make the proverbial crater. I like about 75% of what I see.

138 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:31pm

re: #122 pingjockey

See who downdinged each post. #2 downdinged by leslien

139 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:38pm

My concern about Jindal, in addition to the creation fairy stories, is the fact that anyone who can go from being Hindu and converting to Catholicism really doesn't believe in anything, much less reality.

140 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:18:46pm
141 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:19:00pm

re: #124 MandyManners
Have you swapped the s in msm for that anglosaxon word for fornicate?

142 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:19:03pm

re: #124 MandyManners
Totally agree! I guess I didn't say it very well. Hillary was inconsistent due to the prevailing winds. Sarah was rock solid. Since when did the MSM or Hollyweird bet on the right horse?

143 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:19:37pm

re: #133 tradewind

The rumor is that Warren Buffet and some other econ guru sat him down and said ' you're gonna have to focus everything on the economy.... give the country to the Clintons'.
Sad if true.

Makes sense. The folks who gave him the billion dollars are running the country.

144 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:19:47pm

You have (unfortunately) 3 years to think about it. Right now Jindal is an interesting story but a non starter for president. Lets wait a while. Lots can happen.

145 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:19:58pm

re: #138 NYCHardhat

See who downdinged each post. #2 downdinged by leslien

LesLein is downdinging every anti-Jindal comment in the thread.

Hello? Is anyone there? Care to explain why?

146 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:20:09pm

re: #139 Gordon Marock

My concern about Jindal, in addition to the creation fairy stories, is the fact that anyone who can go from being Hindu and converting to Catholicism really doesn't believe in anything, much less reality.

He was born and raised in the US. First generation born often drop the religion their parents brought with them. Not a big issue.

147 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:20:16pm

re: #136 Zimriel
Thanks. Sheesh, I'm asleep at the computer!

148 3 wood  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:20:30pm

OT:

So far it looks like the market will open slightly up tomorrow. The futures are up at this point slightly, the Nikkei is down 375 points and the Hang Seng is up 220 points.

149 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:20:38pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Actually, so far I'm very impressed with Obama. His staffing picks have largely been practical level headed folks. If I knew he was capable of being sane and moderate I might have voted for him.

Watched Larry Kudlow tonight. Robert Reich was one of the guests. His views on how to save the economic problem is nothing more than Socialistic bulls**t.
With him on BHO's economic advisory team we can only expect disaster.

150 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:20:46pm

re: #138 NYCHardhat
Thanks to you too.

151 LesLein  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:21:02pm

It was Reagan who said that evolution was "just a theory." In 1984 it hurt him a great deal, costing him Minnesota and the District of Columbia.

But seriously folks, the GOP can't possibly win without the social conservatives. This crusade against them amounts to a circular firing squad. As bad as creationism is, it's less harmful than teaching students that humans cause catastrophic global warming, or that we should "spread the wealth."

Next year the Democrats will attempt to give the District of Columbia representation in Congress and implement card check. Instead of opposing these power grabs, let's go after our own side!

152 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:21:06pm

re: #147 pingjockey

Thanks. Sheesh, I'm asleep at the computer!

Wake up Ping! The threat alarm just went off!

153 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:21:07pm

re: #139 Gordon Marock

I believe the many many former Buddhists, Hindus, and other practicers of various Asian religions who are now among the most devout Christian converts would disagree with that.

154 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:21:14pm

re: #141 pingjockey

Have you swapped the s in msm for that anglosaxon word for fornicate?

Yep.

155 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:21:51pm

re: #142 RubyTuesday

Totally agree! I guess I didn't say it very well. Hillary was inconsistent due to the prevailing winds. Sarah was rock solid. Since when did the MSM or Hollyweird bet on the right horse?

They not only bet on horses, they help deliver the foal and raise it.

156 Charles  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:22:24pm

The WaPo didn't bring it up, but there's also that exorcism thing.

157 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:22:34pm

re: #155 MandyManners

But what they really love to do is shoot horses, don't they.....

158 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:22:51pm

re: #135 ClosetConservative

I must disagree that a majority of Americans are smart enough to recognize their backside from a rabid giraffe.
Perhaps the voting population, but with the MSM swaying unquestioning and ignorant minds doped up on sweeping generalities and "happy logic", I'm not willing to make that statement.
If I'm clear on anything after the last election, it's that this country is DANGEROUSLY stupid.

159 TaeJohnDo  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:23:07pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Why can't we just nominate Thomas Sowell and be done with it.

And Walter Williams as the Veep.

160 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:23:20pm

re: #156 Charles

Charles...
The mainstream Catholic church has a procedure..... rarely used, but taken very seriously..... for exorcism.

161 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:23:38pm

re: #151 LesLein

It was Reagan who said that evolution was "just a theory." In 1984 it hurt him a great deal, costing him Minnesota and the District of Columbia.

But seriously folks, the GOP can't possibly win without the social conservatives. This crusade against them amounts to a circular firing squad. As bad as creationism is, it's less harmful than teaching students that humans cause catastrophic global warming, or that we should "spread the wealth."

Next year the Democrats will attempt to give the District of Columbia representation in Congress and implement card check. Instead of opposing these power grabs, let's go after our own side!

Social Conservatism doesn't have to mean creationism just because that's where the dirty dollars with strings are. Give it up, he's a no go.

162 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:23:40pm
Is Bobby Jindal the next Barack Obama?

No.

163 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:23:41pm

re: #130 quickjustice

In his defense, I do not think anyone can quite understand the depth of the credit problems that the Acorn folks created with the mortgage mess on a global scale. How do we fix it now after the fact? Part of it will be "tincture of time", but I do not think there is a magic wand.

btw, oil is currently 48.79 on the nymx at 20:53 (1/2 hr delay) extended trading session. off 1%

164 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:23:51pm

re: #151 LesLein

It was Reagan who said that evolution was "just a theory." In 1984 it hurt him a great deal, costing him Minnesota and the District of Columbia.

But seriously folks, the GOP can't possibly win without the social conservatives. This crusade against them amounts to a circular firing squad. As bad as creationism is, it's less harmful than teaching students that humans cause catastrophic global warming, or that we should "spread the wealth."

Next year the Democrats will attempt to give the District of Columbia representation in Congress and implement card check. Instead of opposing these power grabs, let's go after our own side!

Be that is it may, you will NOT swing any of the 52% of the useful idiots over with Bobby Jindal as your candidate.

165 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:24:08pm

re: #151 LesLein

It was Reagan who said that evolution was "just a theory." In 1984 it hurt him a great deal, costing him Minnesota and the District of Columbia.

But seriously folks, the GOP can't possibly win without the social conservatives. This crusade against them amounts to a circular firing squad. As bad as creationism is, it's less harmful than teaching students that humans cause catastrophic global warming, or that we should "spread the wealth."

Next year the Democrats will attempt to give the District of Columbia representation in Congress and implement card check. Instead of opposing these power grabs, let's go after our own side!

Because creationism is as bad as the global warming nonsense it's somehow acceptable? Horsefeathers. It's WORSE because it is teaching a religious concept in a public school.

166 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:24:21pm

re: #156 Charles

Oh, that'll go over just swell.

167 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:24:41pm

re: #157 tradewind

But what they really love to do is shoot horses, don't they.....

I never saw that movie.

168 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:25:44pm

re: #160 tradewind

Look, if you show me a 10 year old girl who can levitate a bed and make the earth shake, I will take you seriously. Until then, not so much.

169 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:25:52pm

If you want to win the South and lose the country, go ahead with Jindal. This isn't the '80s anymore when Reagan ran either. Lots of things have changed since then.

170 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:26:07pm

re: #167 MandyManners

Well, there's that. But I also meant that they just love to build up and then shoot down their faves.

171 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:26:12pm

re: #148 3 wood

OT:

So far it looks like the market will open slightly up tomorrow. The futures are up at this point slightly, the Nikkei is down 375 points and the Hang Seng is up 220 points.

Market kills me. Went down on the news we've been in a recession for a year....hello...a year? Most recessions have lasted about that long. Course this one is the worst since....lets hear it..............THE GREAT DEPRESSION..........well it was before Obama was elected. Now, not so much.

172 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:26:35pm

re: #151 LesLein
Teaching that creation is science is a crock. Teaching that MMGW is science is a crock. Unfortunetly, scientists(some) support MMGW. So that at least has some(bad) science, there is no science in creationism.

173 TaeJohnDo  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:26:50pm

re: #168 Gordon Marock

Look, if you show me a 10 year old girl who can levitate a bed and make the earth shake, I will take you seriously. Until then, not so much.

That was a younger Hillary in her formative years.

174 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:26:50pm

re: #165 MandyManners

The gorebots turned global warming into their religion. Worshiping mother gaia.

175 Paul Green  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:27:02pm

As one who traveled to a supposedly battleground state to help with the McCain campaign, I can say the strategists behind that campaign should not be listened to about anything. Instead of warning voters about Democrats who will tax them into penury, our phone-bank script promised to "rein in Wasington and Wall Street," and instead of attacking Obama on ACORN and his other radical-left associations, they put those chinks in his armor off-limits. The whole stinking bunch of them should be ridden out of the Republican Party on a rail.

176 right_on_target  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:27:07pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

He is failing on many grounds. He almost was recalled recently for signing an exorbitant pay raise for the legislature. He's not a very good reformer.


______________________________
He DIDN'T sign pay raise; he vetoed it, even after the legislature threatened to shut state government down.

177 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:27:40pm

re: #158 Bumr50

I don't intend to say that the voting populace can make informed decisions on its own. The GOP needs to kick the information machine into high gear. The only reason the Soviet Union survived as long as it did was because they could explain everything they did to all of their constituents- the populist rhetoric for the students, and the nuanced philosophy for the intellectuals. The difference between the Soviet Union and the GOP is that the GOP has good ideas.

178 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:27:48pm

re: #9 LoFlyer

What is the issue Charles? Jindal obviously supports educational debate of both theories. If Evolution is a strong theory, it will withstand the debate with flying colors!

Parroting the official DI "Teach the Controversy" line?

179 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:27:55pm

re: #151 LesLein

It was Reagan who said that evolution was "just a theory." In 1984 it hurt him a great deal, costing him Minnesota and the District of Columbia.

But seriously folks, the GOP can't possibly win without the social conservatives. This crusade against them amounts to a circular firing squad. As bad as creationism is, it's less harmful than teaching students that humans cause catastrophic global warming, or that we should "spread the wealth."

Next year the Democrats will attempt to give the District of Columbia representation in Congress and implement card check. Instead of opposing these power grabs, let's go after our own side!

First off, you haven't given a context for Reagan's quote, beyond an internet meme that I've seen elsewhere.

Second, not all social conservatives are creationists. The Pope is a so-con and he disavows creationism.

Third, I fail to see how your compulsing downdinging of posts with which you disagree, over something this debatable and which you yourself see as petty, will help Jindal. All it's done so far is make a bunch of lizards pissed at you.

180 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:27:59pm

re: #168 Gordon Marock

What is this ' take me seriously'? I haven't said a thing about my feelings pro or con, only that there is a sacrament within the Catholic church for dealing with it.
I'm not Catholic, btw.

181 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:28:08pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops
What, where? Get me my coffee and smokes! Can't chase rooshan subs without caffeine or nicotine!

182 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:28:32pm

Instead of looking for the candidat who could possibly win we need to put together the platform that can't lose.

183 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:28:33pm

re: #174 Perplexed

And out went the proper teaching of the Scientific Method as well.

184 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:28:36pm

re: #96 NYCHardhat

From your link, "coweringly religious"? WTF does that mean, afraid of hell? Anyway, the bloom is definately off the rose but Obama apparently knows that an America smashed economically under the burden of "share the wealth" or so decimated by Jihadists will not re-elect him. Watching the LLLs deal with this, well all I can say is: This is going to be great!

185 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:28:47pm

"We cannot survive as a free nation when some men decide that others are not fit to live and should be abandoned to abortion or infanticide"

" Society has always regarded marital love as a sacred expression of the bond between a man and a woman. It is the means by which families are created and society itself is extended into the future. In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is the means by which husband and wife participate with G-d in the creation of new human life. It is for these reasons, among others, that our society has always sought to protect this unique relationship. In par the erosion of these values has given way to a celebration of forms of expression most reject. We will resist the efforts of some to obtain government endorsement of homosexuality"

Ronald Reagan.

(Could it be that Reagan had a stand and could articulate it rather than checking the current wind direction for his "thoughts"?)

186 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:29:07pm

re: #170 tradewind

Well, there's that. But I also meant that they just love to build up and then shoot down their faves.

Hillary. McCain. I'm waiting to see what they do to CBBHO.

187 LesLein  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:29:09pm

re: #93 Zimriel

Yoo hoo! LesLein, the phantom downdingleberry! Care to defend your choice of comments to slap, this time 'round? Might you agree with Jindal on "teaching the controversy"? Step on up and make your case!

...coward

I'm sorry. I thought it was a free country. If you're reduced to name calling, try to be original.

188 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:29:25pm

re: #174 Perplexed

The gorebots turned global warming into their religion. Worshiping mother gaia.

It's not the same.

189 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:29:33pm

My very subjective opinion is that- notwithstanding anything else- Jindal lacks the requisite charisma.

190 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:29:34pm

The problem may be not so much the candidate, but the electorate.
It may take a drastic event or crisis to shake 'em up.

191 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:00pm

re: #180 tradewind

Sorry! I was assuming from the statement "which is taken sersiously. . ." that you were among the serious takers.

192 theheat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:12pm

As long as the GOP restricts its POTUS shopping to the Crazy aisle, they're going to be rejected by voters. At least, rejected by a majority, the enough-to-win kind of majority. The diehard far right voters will support them, no matter how far out in the stratosphere they're from, but I don't see mainstream America embracing all the craziness that comes with the package.

Yeah, and Bobby Jindal is in that category, for sure. No thanks. They have to do better than that, or have another four years after 2012 to either find someone crazier, or figure out religious crazy ain't selling.

I was hoping they would figure that out before the next election.

193 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:13pm

We have to forget the entire social platform: abortion, for now, is legal. It is a no win battle. Creationism is a religious concept not a scientific one. It is a dumb battle. What will win votes is real conservatism: small government, lower taxes, personal responsibility, high expectations. This message is a winner, every time.
Jindal's baggage will compromise and diffuse the message we want to convey.

194 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:14pm

re: #182 Thanos

Instead of looking for the candidat who could possibly win we need to put together the platform that can't lose.

Perfectly stated

195 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:43pm

My bet's on Bryan. Jindal in 2012 will lose big time.

Bryan was one of those perennial candidates.... but his very public stance in the Scopes Monkey Trial killed him. He died six days after the trial ended, possibly of overexertion in the heat of the Tennessee summer.

The guilty verdict was overturned on a technicality.

196 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:55pm
197 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:30:56pm

re: #186 MandyManners

He does have one built-in shield, they're terrified of anything that could be translated into racism by some erstwhile Al Sharpton character or other, if not Big Al hisself.

198 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:31:04pm

re: #95 ClosetConservative

. . .

The GOP needs to begin engaging their voters on a higher intellectual plane. Bobby Jindal is not the candidate to do that.

You are correct - he is not the candidate.

199 shiplord kirel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:31:17pm

True story:

There is a contract worker in our building, a security guard. Unusually for people in that occupation, he is a lefty and a media conformist. He knows all the TV shows and pop-stars. He loves his gadget infested telephone. He backed Obama to the hilt and could regurgitate the talking points verbatim. He "knows" that terrorism is our fault because Bush has caused the whole world to hate us.

Incredible though it may seem, I got along pretty well with him. I respect working people and I am careful to avoid using my position to browbeat employees. Not being able to let it go entirely, though, I decided to loan him some books and get together a reading list that might open his eyes to other points of view. He seemed uncomfortable when I suggested this. After a puzzling back and forth, he blurted out the truth: He cannot read well enough to understand books or even the daily newspaper. He said that he has never read a book or an article in his life. He does his reports by careful use of a standard form, a dictionary, and a sympathetic supervisor. He was dyslexic, he went to school in California, and he was passed through all the way to graduation without learning anything. His political ideology comes from the media and his moonbat mother.

I did persuade him to get in touch with some folks who might help with his dyslexia and that is where matters stand.

200 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:31:23pm

re: #151 LesLein

I got news for you. The Gipper didn't stand a chance at winning Minnesota.

201 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:31:43pm

re: #184 Rancher

From your link, "coweringly religious"? WTF does that mean, afraid of hell? Anyway, the bloom is definately off the rose but Obama apparently knows that an America smashed economically under the burden of "share the wealth" or so decimated by Jihadists will not re-elect him. Watching the LLLs deal with this, well all I can say is: This is going to be great!

I got a lawn chair and a cooler of beers. Care to join me?

202 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:31:53pm

re: #184 Rancher

I've been told this feeling I have is called schadenfreude.

Whatever it is, I like it.

203 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:32:34pm

re: #183 Bumr50

And out went the proper teaching of the Scientific Method as well.

Throwing out scientific method had to be done. Use scientific method and you might get results you might not like. Sort of what NASA was recently caught doing by cooking the numbers on global temperatures.

204 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:32:35pm

re: #194 Bloodnok

Perfectly stated

Except.. A platform has never won a presidential election..Only the Candidate.

205 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:32:41pm

re: #174 Perplexed

The gorebots turned global warming into their religion. Worshiping mother gaia.

I don't think Gore and the Gorebots really worship "mother gaia." Gore is using these pithy, nonsensical global warming scare tactics for his own self-aggrandizement. Not because he really cares about the earth or what happens to it.

206 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:04pm

re: #182 Thanos
Yes! Those are the words I was trying to put together! No more Rock Star...but someone rock solid. There's time - look at all the Repubs from everywhere. There's someone who will fit the times. Let's not grab up someone in desperation. Country, conservatives first.

207 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:15pm

re: #165 MandyManners

Because creationism is as bad as the global warming nonsense it's somehow acceptable? Horsefeathers. It's WORSE because it is teaching a religious concept in a public school.

Mandy, I have to disagree. The cult of global warming has ensnared our energy and economic policy and could conceivably cripple both. Creationism added to a general science curriculum as an alternative theory would take up less than half a day's lesson on origins of the universe. Yes, I agree that it doesn't belong in a science classroom in a public school, but seriously, most basic high school science curricula include physical science, earth science, and biology, none of which spends a lot of time on the origins of the universe anyway.

208 hermit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:15pm

Okay, lemme see if I got this...forgive me if someone brought this up.

Somebody thinks it would be a good idea to go from Chicago politicians to Louisiana politicians....

WTF!?!?!? No wonder some folks don't believe in forward evolution, we'd freakin REGRESS back into the political slime!

Why don't we just hire a roofing company for president...

209 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:24pm

re: #198 reine.de.tout

I think Palin falls into the same category. They are cut from the same cloth. Conservatives have become wary of intellectuals in favor of simple country charm.

210 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:34pm

The GOP needs to realise that some cultural trends are not mere fads. Jindal seems to be swimming in the wrong direction.

211 The Shadow Do  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:37pm

re: #169 Thanos

If you want to win the South and lose the country, go ahead with Jindal. This isn't the '80s anymore when Reagan ran either. Lots of things have changed since then.

As a Southerner, I doubt he could even carry the South. He ran against a patently corrupt administration in LA and won. No vision, no magic in it. Hope he does well but he is not the future of the Party.

212 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:39pm

re: #205 gclaghorn

ka-Ching.
Bullseye.

213 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:44pm

re: #194 Bloodnok

Problem is, we have lines that we refuse to cross on principle.

They just move theirs whenever convenient.

It's a conundrum.

214 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:50pm

All meteor starts in space as a bolide, when it reaches our atmosphere, it is then a meteor, and then it finally explodes and breaks up into little pieces, meteorites.

Jindal will follow this same pattern.

215 poopeedoo  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:33:56pm

re: #93 Zimriel

Let's remember to play nice.

216 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:07pm

re: #187 LesLein

I'm sorry. I thought it was a free country. If you're reduced to name calling, try to be original.

See, I downding comments that are obviously wrong and/or ignorant. Unfortunately, you tend to downding everything you don't agree with. Well, good for you.

217 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:25pm

re: #156 Charles

I guess I just don't care about personal beliefs like this, so long as I am not forced to follow suit. My Granddaddy was a staunch Catholic - exorcism and all. He was also an incredible person with a life story that reads like a movie script (ran away at 14, made it 3/4s through medical school, then dropped out to join the Army, rode a horse in the 1st Cav, retired as a Colonel). He also felt the theory of evolution was most probably spot on - but understood there are things we simply don't know yet and things we must turn over to faith (outside of evolution). I don't want a litmus test. That isn't true, I want an ethical litmus test (see ya, Huckabee), not a religious (or anti-religious) litmus test.

218 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:27pm

re: #160 tradewind

Charles...
The mainstream Catholic church has a procedure..... rarely used, but taken very seriously..... for exorcism.

Yeah, exorcism is taken seriously because the Church is stuck with it. The Gospels feature a lot of exorcisms, and even the Jesus Seminar agrees that Jesus probably did a few. (There are a number of canonical Jewish sages, like Hanina b. Dosa, who also did exorcisms IIRC; so the rabbis at least can't laugh at us too much.)

The Church has surrounded this rite with a lot of bureaucracy so that you can't just ring up your neighbourhood Priest when your kid is acting weird. I mean, by all means try it, but he'll just refer you to counselling. Exorcism will not be high on the troubleshooting list. The Church just doesn't want this headache, especially when so many cases of "weird" behaviour are curable with a few pleasant chats and/or medication.

219 JacksonTn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:30pm

re: #67 kansas

I was thinking that it might be a good idea to become a Democrat and try to move the party to the right a bit. What the hell?

I would say from they way they both were treated that's exactly what that means.

If you are serious ...you can have them ...my entire family left the democrats this year after three generations ...if you think there is a chance in hell of getting the democrats to go towards the right you are dreaming ...the whole agenda for this election via Howard Dean and Obama thugs was to purge the party of center right democrats ...we will NEVER go back ...

220 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:40pm

re: #112 Perplexed

Jury is still out on the lightworker. He's picked up a nervous tic already and he hasn't assumed office.

Really? LOL!

221 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:40pm

Look, Global Warming is Science, the globe warms, then it cools, then it warms, then it cools, again and again and again until one day the Sun's Corona expands and engulfs the Earth as a Red Giant. Yikes! now I scared myself.

222 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:48pm

re: #208 hermit

Why don't we just hire a roofing company for president...


Ha!

223 BignJames  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:34:53pm

re: #202 Bumr50

Beats jockitch I guess.

224 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:35:04pm

Exorcism is no big deal to me.
Catholics and Episcopalians also drink little cups of grape juice and call it the "blood of Christ".
Is that any less supernatural than an exorcism?

225 The Shadow Do  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:35:07pm

re: #175 Paul Green

As one who traveled to a supposedly battleground state to help with the McCain campaign, I can say the strategists behind that campaign should not be listened to about anything. Instead of warning voters about Democrats who will tax them into penury, our phone-bank script promised to "rein in Wasington and Wall Street," and instead of attacking Obama on ACORN and his other radical-left associations, they put those chinks in his armor off-limits. The whole stinking bunch of them should be ridden out of the Republican Party on a rail.

Time to throw your hat in Paul

226 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:35:15pm

re: #199 shiplord kirel

You have changed his life for the better. He may resent that fact once his reading skills sharpen up and he finds his world has come undone. But you did him a favor.

Thank you.

227 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:35:15pm

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

the global warming religion, masquerading as science, bids fair to destroy the economy if measures are enacted by the voting public to advance this belief. Creationism, though it too has a deleterious effect if taught as science, will not have the same immediate drastic effects.

I hadn't thought about the immediacy of the damages on our economy of teaching the pseudoscience of global warming. I'd forgotten it's the Communists' new tool.

228 TaeJohnDo  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:35:36pm

re: #199 shiplord kirel

True story:

There is a contract worker in our building, a security guard. Unusually for people in that occupation, he is a lefty and a media conformist. He knows all the TV shows and pop-stars. He loves his gadget infested telephone. He backed Obama to the hilt and could regurgitate the talking points verbatim. He "knows" that terrorism is our fault because Bush has caused the whole world to hate us.

Incredible though it may seem, I got along pretty well with him. I respect working people and I am careful to avoid using my position to browbeat employees. Not being able to let it go entirely, though, I decided to loan him some books and get together a reading list that might open his eyes to other points of view. He seemed uncomfortable when I suggested this. After a puzzling back and forth, he blurted out the truth: He cannot read well enough to understand books or even the daily newspaper. He said that he has never read a book or an article in his life. He does his reports by careful use of a standard form, a dictionary, and a sympathetic supervisor. He was dyslexic, he went to school in California, and he was passed through all the way to graduation without learning anything. His political ideology comes from the media and his moonbat mother.

I did persuade him to get in touch with some folks who might help with his dyslexia and that is where matters stand.

Proving the soft bigotry of low expectations and the conservative ideal of helping by facing the truth and solving the problem. One upding for you.

229 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:36:09pm

re: #224 rawmuse

I need a cookie.

230 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:36:18pm

re: #143 NYCHardhat

I misspoke. What I actually think was said was ' you will have to focus everything on the economy, and give foreign policy to the Clintons '.
You obviously got that, but I needed to clarify.

231 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:36:25pm

re: #197 tradewind

He does have one built-in shield, they're terrified of anything that could be translated into racism by some erstwhile Al Sharpton character or other, if not Big Al hisself.

Well, there is that. However, if they really believe this is a post-racial era, they might get tired of being told they're racists for raising mere questions about his actions and policies.

232 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:36:25pm
Jindal: Political Meteor or Meteorite?

Neither. Just a political crater waiting to happen.

233 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:36:33pm

re: #199 shiplord kirel

True story:

There is a contract worker in our building, a security guard. ...I did persuade him to get in touch with some folks who might help with his dyslexia and that is where matters stand.

Mensch

234 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:36:45pm

re: #218 Zimriel

Sounds reasonable to me.

235 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:37:23pm

re: #75 VegasRick

For now.

I don't think that will change. The MSM is all ready giving him outs before he's even officially President. The mantra is..."this is one of the worst national, world, you name it, situations for an incoming President ".... blah, blah, blah. There is no way THEIR Man is not going to succeed. And, most of the general public get their information from the MSM. I think Obama being elected proves that. They don't do the research. They want someone else to do it for them. Thus, the MSM. Why else, besides he was black, would an inexperienced Community Organizer from Chicago win!

236 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:37:28pm

re: #224 rawmuse

Exorcism is no big deal to me.
Catholics and Episcopalians also drink little cups of grape juice and call it the "blood of Christ".
Is that any less supernatural than an exorcism?

Look, pal, I was brought up in a real Episcopal Church, and it was Cream Sherry all the way. Grape Juice, Ha!

237 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:37:33pm

If democrats continue to be allowed to look like the party of fiscal restraint, republicans are going to lose. As long as republicans want to act like drunken liberals with the money of the American people, we will lose.

238 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:37:47pm

re: #207 goddessoftheclassroom

Mandy, I have to disagree. The cult of global warming has ensnared our energy and economic policy and could conceivably cripple both. Creationism added to a general science curriculum as an alternative theory would take up less than half a day's lesson on origins of the universe. Yes, I agree that it doesn't belong in a science classroom in a public school, but seriously, most basic high school science curricula include physical science, earth science, and biology, none of which spends a lot of time on the origins of the universe anyway.

I hadn't thought about the effects of both.

239 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:37:51pm

re: #230 tradewind

I misspoke. What I actually think was said was ' you will have to focus everything on the economy, and give foreign policy to the Clintons '.
You obviously got that, but I needed to clarify.

Clinton and foreign policy is an oxymoron.

240 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:37:58pm

re: #219 JacksonTn

If you are serious ...you can have them ...my entire family left the democrats this year after three generations ...if you think there is a chance in hell of getting the democrats to go towards the right you are dreaming ...the whole agenda for this election via Howard Dean and Obama thugs was to purge the party of center right democrats ...we will NEVER go back ...

Well, it was a thought. Maybe if we all converted to Dhimmicrat we could influence the primary outcome. Then again maybe not. I have noted that Dhims from my area, notably Claire McCaskill and Kathleen Sebelius tend to get nuts when they go national.

241 JHW  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:38:09pm

re: #158 Bumr50

Sadly, I believe you're right. Check out this survey, one-third of citizens and one-third of elected officials didn't even know who we fought in WW2 among other things. College graduates did disgracefully poor on these basic citizenship questions.
Civic Literacy Report

Almost unbelievable it could be this bad. This was one of the conclusions of the report;

Finding 4:
Television—Including TV News—Dumbs America Down

ISI examined whether other factors add to or subtract from civic literacy and how they compare with the impact of college. The survey revealed that in today’s technological age, all else remaining equal, a person’s test score drops in proportion to the time he or she spends using certain types of passive electronic media. Talking on the phone, watching owned or rented movies, and monitoring TV news broadcasts and documentaries diminish a respondent’s civic literacy.

In contrast to these negative influences, the civic knowledge gained from the inexpensive combination of engaging in frequent conversations about public affairs, reading about current events and history, and participating in more involved civic activities is greater than the gain from an expensive bachelor’s degree alone.

242 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:38:15pm

re: #205 gclaghorn

Gore is a closet capitalist and has used Global Warming to earn a boatload of cash. Let's see how willing he is to spread it to us, now. If he sends me 1/3 of his earnings on this crap, I will personally replace every light bulb in my house with those curly ones AND drive a Prius. Ok, maybe not a Prius, but a Hybrid Escalade, maybe.

243 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:38:24pm

re: #237 Sharmuta

They spent like crack whores with a week to live.

244 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:38:35pm

re: #9 LoFlyer

What is the issue Charles? Jindal obviously supports educational debate of both theories. If Evolution is a strong theory, it will withstand the debate with flying colors!

There is no debate in the scientific community; evolution holds all the evidentiary cards. Do not mistake creationist whingeing for genuine debate.

245 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:38:53pm

I'm not very interested in the 2012 presidential election. I think the GOP should work on a common sense platform to provide for a strong defense and to restore fiscal sanity, small government, and Constitutional federalism.
As far as elections go, they should concentrate on Congressional elections and on getting good young people into state offices.

246 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:39:02pm

re: #224 rawmuse

Exorcism is no big deal to me.
Catholics and Episcopalians also drink little cups of grape juice and call it the "blood of Christ".
Is that any less supernatural than an exorcism?

RC and Anglicans drink wine. Methodists and Baptists drink grape juice. I'm not sure about other denominations.

Roman Catholics believe in transubstantiation; Protestants believe in symbolic consubstantiation.

Didn't someone say that Satan's greatest achievement was convincing people that he didn't exist>

247 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:39:14pm

re: #112 Perplexed

Jury is still out on the lightworker. He's picked up a nervous tic already and he hasn't assumed office.

Victor Davis Hanson calls Obama's campaign the biggest bait-and-switch in American political history.

I think we are slowly (and things of course could change) beginning in retrospect to look back at the outline of one of most profound bait-and-switch campaigns in our political history, predicated on the mass appeal of a magnetic leader rather than any principles per se. He out-Clintoned Hillary and followed Bill's 1992 formula: A young Democrat runs on youth, popular appeal and charisma, claims the incumbent Bush caused another Great Depression and blew Iraq, and then went right down the middle with a showy leftist veneer.

It gets better:

In short, given all that, Obama's victory (predicated on painting Bush as a Hoover/Nixon redux), more so even than perhaps a John McCain's, may do more for Bush's reputation that anyone ever imagined. And the Mumbai mess (over there, not here) will only empasize all this, as an array of old 9/11-era experts who used to warn us about radical Islam, then, in the subsequent respite at home, screamed that Bush fabricated a war against terror against bogeymen, and now in their third manifestation are paraded once more out to warn us about?—why, yes, radical Islam!

248 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:39:24pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Post-racial is such a red herring. We won't have a post-racial world or, alternatively, country, until intermarriage is universal and all the kiddies are basically variations of the same shade. It's just a human failing.... different is.... different. We obviously can get past this on a one to one basis, and form friendships and relationships that transcend race, which is it should be. But there are still the issues of Them and Us that permeate society. Don't know what the answer is.

249 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:39:38pm

re: #242 ArmyWife

Gore is a closet capitalist and has used Global Warming to earn a boatload of cash. Let's see how willing he is to spread it to us, now. If he sends me 1/3 of his earnings on this crap, I will personally replace every light bulb in my house with those curly ones AND drive a Prius. Ok, maybe not a Prius, but a Hybrid Escalade, maybe.

Here's a picture of Gore's office:

[Link: www.commonplacebook.com...]

I hope he recycles all of those papers! And those monitors had better be environment-friendly!

/snark

250 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:39:53pm

re: #204 HoosierHoops

Except.. A platform has never won a presidential election..Only the Candidate.

I'm not sure it is possible for the Republicans can field a candidate that can please the base, please the fiscal conservatives (who are not Socons) and win Independents and moderates. No one candidate can do that anymore. In the 80's yes, now maybe not. The platform needs to be redefined and some ideas may not make the cut.

251 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:40:33pm

re: #236 Gordon Marock

You're so right... I read that and thought, Hah! I'm a cradle Episcopalian, and that grape juice is some primo grappa.

252 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:41:42pm

re: #243 rawmuse

They spent like crack whores with a week to live.

Yes- we handed our butts on a silver platter to the dems. It was easy for them to paint themselves as the party of responsibility considering the msm was more than willing to help push that meme. If people want politicians to act like democrats- they'll elect the real thing and not an imitation.

253 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:41:50pm

re: #251 tradewind

You're so right... I read that and thought, Hah! I'm a cradle Episcopalian, and that grape juice is some primo grappa.

That stuff makes me hallucinate

254 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:41:57pm

re: #229 Killgore Trout

I need a cookie.

You need a good Baptist dunking.

255 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:02pm

re: #249 gclaghorn

Here's a picture of Gore's office:

[Link: www.commonplacebook.com...]

I hope he recycles all of those papers! And those monitors had better be environment-friendly!

/snark

Is that the office where he invented the Internet? It certainly looks like the mother ship.

256 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:09pm

re: #249 gclaghorn

You should see his farm on the Caney Fork. I have.
An environmental nightmare, or at least it was a few years ago.

257 BignJames  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:20pm

re: #246 goddessoftheclassroom

RC and Anglicans drink wine. Methodists and Baptists drink grape juice. I'm not sure about other denominations.

Roman Catholics believe in transubstantiation; Protestants believe in symbolic consubstantiation.

Didn't someone say that Satan's greatest achievement was convincing people that he didn't exist>

Kevin Spacey's character in "Usual Suspects"

258 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:41pm

re: #253 NYCHardhat

It's just a teensy, weensy sip.

259 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:45pm

re: #124 MandyManners

The entire MFM were out to get her from the beginnng. Even the entertainment wing of the MFM went after her.

She has withstood an incredible onslaught and survived, unlike poor Newt, the Grinch who stole Christmas.

260 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:47pm

re: #251 tradewind

Yeah, as an acolyte, we got to help slug down the leftovers. That was no grape juice.

261 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:42:48pm

re: #257 BignJames

Kevin Spacey's character in "Usual Suspects"

Kaiser Soze.

262 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:43:22pm

re: #182 Thanos

Instead of looking for the candidat who could possibly win we need to put together the platform that can't lose.

I second that motion!

263 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:43:28pm

re: #207 goddessoftheclassroom

Mandy, I have to disagree. The cult of global warming has ensnared our energy and economic policy and could conceivably cripple both. Creationism added to a general science curriculum as an alternative theory would take up less than half a day's lesson on origins of the universe. Yes, I agree that it doesn't belong in a science classroom in a public school, but seriously, most basic high school science curricula include physical science, earth science, and biology, none of which spends a lot of time on the origins of the universe anyway.

See... I say that's a problem. Schools should teach the origins of the universe, the creation of the solar system, Kepler, Galileo, dinosaurs, evolution, ... all of it. They tiptoe around a lot of this because they don't want the headache of angry parents and then votes to cut school funding. So now most kids think "science is boring" except for the kids who (like me) read on their own.

We are now seeing the effects of inadequate science education in the previous generation.

264 BignJames  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:43:49pm

re: #261 NYCHardhat

Kaiser Soze.

aka Verbal

265 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:06pm

re: #259 Rancher

She has withstood an incredible onslaught and survived, unlike poor Newt, the Grinch who stole Christmas.

In my opinion she has not survived as a viable national candidate. Its still like whack a mole. Every time she surfaces Leno and Letterman whack her.

266 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:18pm

re: #248 tradewind

Post-racial is such a red herring. We won't have a post-racial world or, alternatively, country, until intermarriage is universal and all the kiddies are basically variations of the same shade. It's just a human failing.... different is.... different. We obviously can get past this on a one to one basis, and form friendships and relationships that transcend race, which is it should be. But there are still the issues of Them and Us that permeate society. Don't know what the answer is.

Maybe we're best at just muddling along, doing our best every day in every way.

267 RickJ  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:20pm

maybe the religious folks should readjust what they are looking for in schools. Obviously you can't teach religion at public school anymore. (although we all used to say the Lord's Prayer and go through some Bible reading in the early grades years ago)

Instead they need to teach their beliefs at home and at religious centers and keep an eye on schools so they don't overstep.

I say overstep because "evolution" can take on a religious certainty at times about things that aren't well understood and can't be or aren't yet known. If we think we know everything about how life and matter have come into existence, then we are fools and while there are without a doubt religious fools , there are no shortage of fools on the other side.

268 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:27pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Is that the office where he invented the Internet? It certainly looks like the mother ship.

Shhhh! Don't make fun of him! He has been gracious enough to let us hang out here, and if you make the Overlord angry, he may cut us all off from the interweb!

/

269 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:30pm

My candidate for Attorney General:
Cobb: We're gonna give you a fair trial, followed by a first class hanging.

270 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:40pm

re: #257 BignJames

Kevin Spacey's character in "Usual Suspects"

They stole it from C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters.

271 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:44:50pm

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

I, for one, object to the pseudoscientific sciento-religion of global warming being taught in a public school with a fervor at least equal to my objections to creationism. Why "at least equal"? Because to the extent there is any science to global warming, it should be taught as something about which there is a healthy scientific debate--for there are scientists on both sides, even though I happen to believe that one side is dead wrong.

Creationism is not science, and has no place in a science curriculum. Arguably, global warming has--but taught as a received wisdom, i.e., a religion, it does students, and science, as deep a disservice as teaching creationism does. Furthermore, the indoctrination of the young into the sciento-religion of global warming will have a far more deleterious effect, far more immediately and directly, upon this nation than the teaching of creationism, for the global warming religion, masquerading as science, bids fair to destroy the economy if measures are enacted by the voting public to advance this belief. Creationism, though it too has a deleterious effect if taught as science, will not have the same immediate drastic effects.

The Sydney Morning Herald recently called global warmenism a "fundamentalist religion."

As the Czech President, Vaclav Klaus, an economist, anti-totalitarian and climate change sceptic, prepares to take up the rotating presidency of the European Union next year, climate alarmists are doing their best to traduce him.

The New York Times opened a profile of Klaus, 67, this week with a quote from a 1980s communist secret agent's report, claiming he behaves like a "rejected genius", and asserts there is "palpable fear" he will "embarrass" the EU.

But the real fear driving climate alarmists wild is that a more rational approach to the fundamentalist religion of global warming may be in the ascendancy - whether in the parliamentary offices of the world's largest trading bloc or in the living rooms of Blacktown.

272 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:45:18pm

re: #259 Rancher

She has withstood an incredible onslaught and survived, unlike poor Newt, the Grinch who stole Christmas.

Newt's divorce helped him do himself in.

273 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:45:24pm

We need to look ahead and get out of the defensive stance we had to adapt in mid '05 to defend the ongoing war effort in Iraq. Where the left used to be reactive prisoner to the 24 hour news cycle, we've switched positions with them and become the same sort -- looking for a silver bullet in the next day's papers. That's not going to happen - we need to get out of defensive mode and go offense and persist. We've already lost most everything, we have nothing left to loose by looking ahead and taking strides forward.

In 2012 Iraq will be over but for the historians. Possibly Afghanistan will be as well. There will be new threats, and they will be different. Who in the party is looking at that? Every part of the party needs to challenge themselves, what are they doing exactly for tomorrow's children?

274 BignJames  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:45:47pm

re: #270 goddessoftheclassroom

They stole it from C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters.


damn thieves

275 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #224 rawmuse

Neither to me.
I often guess that my own personal separation of spirituality from any science in which the logic, mathematics, or limitations of this reality cause me confusion when confronted with other folks who have such a hard time with stuff like this. I like what I've seen of Jindal, and I am disappointed to learn of his voting to include creationism in public school curricula.
But if you wanna exorcise on your down time, ain't no thing here.

276 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:46:25pm

re: #242 ArmyWife

I have a hybrid Highlander, and it is a great car. I had had two of them before, the regular models, and was curious and just saw no reason not to try one. It's great in town.
Those damn lightbulbs, though...... I will use them in the garage. I will use 'em in the attic. But dammit if I will put them in my good lamps in the living room, or eat by them.
No matter how they try to camo them, they just cast an ugly light.

277 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:47:06pm

re: #241 JHW
I missed 4.

278 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:47:10pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Actually, so far I'm very impressed with Obama. His staffing picks have largely been practical level headed folks. If I knew he was capable of being sane and moderate I might have voted for him.

I agree. Have you seen this speech he gave earlier this year on the subject of secularism and religion? I was impressed.

279 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:47:39pm

re: #256 tradewind

You should see his farm on the Caney Fork. I have.
An environmental nightmare, or at least it was a few years ago.

What I think is funny is that Bush's ranch in Texas is far more eco-friendly than Gore's TN mansion.

280 JHW  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:48:21pm

re: #277 pingjockey

You're far ahead of the rest of the country then, I believe that puts you in the highest percentile.

281 Drained Brain  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:48:41pm

In my pre-retirement years I was a right-wing high school principal in Canada of all places (not an easy place to be right wing). Our science department head was a typical left-wing unionist type (strong NDP for any Canuck readers). He was a Darwinist (is that the term?) and the more he evangelized about it the more skeptical I became. Can't folks just be agnostic about a few things? Can't there be a little live-and-let-live on the topic to give some of us a chance to let our views evolve?

Just a thought...

282 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:48:48pm

re: #267 RickJ

I was about to ding you up, then I read this:

I say overstep because "evolution" can take on a religious certainty at times about things that aren't well understood and can't be or aren't yet known. If we think we know everything about how life and matter have come into existence, then we are fools and while there are without a doubt religious fools , there are no shortage of fools on the other side.

Who is saying such things? Most of the scientists I've read have not, nor would not say such a thing- it would be unscientific for them to do so.

283 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:02pm

re: #271 Steffan

The real fear stems from Al Gore thinking he might not collect the hundreds of millions from the carbon trading companies and schemes he has bought in to. That is why gore's tone will become more and more strident despite the mounting contrary evidence. In order to have cap and trade, someone must facilitate the trading.

284 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:09pm

re: #279 Steffan
From reading about how the Crawford ranch was built, it's night and day. It's like North and South Korea.
Sigh. ...... the hypocrisy......

285 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:17pm

re: #279 Steffan

What I think is funny is that Bush's ranch in Texas is far more eco-friendly than Gore's TN mansion.

Did you see that on MSNBC? Just kiddin, I know it was Couric that reported it...oh wait.......

286 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:21pm

re: #270 goddessoftheclassroom
Oh goodness, another one of those eeeeeeevil Christians!

287 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:25pm

re: #265 kansas

In my opinion she has not survived as a viable national candidate. Its still like whack a mole. Every time she surfaces Leno and Letterman whack her.

That may actually be proof she is a viable national candidate -- why would they bother if they didn't fear her?

288 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:49:33pm

re: #272 MandyManners

Newt's ethical compass had some moments of disorientation. If he was a lib it wouldn't matter - heck, look at the parade of freaks in the Dem column what with their male protistution rings, piles of frozen cash and affairs with younger girls - some of whom found dead in parks, others on their knees in the Oval Office. The Libs circle the wagons around their freaks, we kick ours to the curb.

289 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:04pm

If talking up the GOP's chances for the next election helps them sleep, well, good on them.

The fact of the matter is, it doesnt matter squat, you have Obama for 4 years, starting 20th Jan, (yesterday, if you talk to The Man).

290 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:10pm

Whoever the Republicans manage to find next time around, I they run "for" something, not "against" something. We need to find our bearings, get back to basics and a viable plan to implement it. McCain was so muddled, nobody knew what he stood for. Of course, Obama was the most vaporous candidate ever....so, if you look good and speak well, you can run and win standing for nothing. I do not see anyone with those skills on out side. So, let's just use something we know is good....our core beliefs. They are what will win back the Congress and the Presidency.....not bending over backwards to be like the Democrats.

291 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:20pm

re: #279 Steffan

What I think is funny is that Bush's ranch in Texas is far more eco-friendly than Gore's TN mansion.

Right here.

292 gringotipico  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:21pm

I don't dislike Gov. Jindal, but I don't see what all these pundits are having wet dreams about... Seems like they're BARELY a step up from the Palin 2012 crowd.

293 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:21pm

re: #275 Bumr50

... But if you wanna exorcise on your down time, ain't no thing here.

Well, I'll say it right here, I'm not interested in voting for someone who believes that people can be "possessed" by some "evil entity" and there are rituals that can remove this evil presence from that person.

That's as good as sitting in grass and mud huts in the Middle Ages and casting spells to ward off bad luck.

Don't work for me.

294 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:38pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Why can't we just nominate Thomas Sowell and be done with it.

Or

Shelby Steele

[Link: tv.nationalreview.com...]

295 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:38pm

re: #34 ArmyWife

I read VDH's article 20 times. I agree wholeheartedly Army Wife we need to widen our tent and define who we are. I invite others to consider strongly that we need to reconsider having a forum soon to define our commonalities as Conservative Republicans and let's not allow the GOP platform to spoonfeed us to have Jindal be the only
possible candidate. I do not want a default choice as a candidate again, because we were too proud to meet as a group and do our own thinking and choosing a candidate/s as a party.
IMO Jindal is working out just fine for La. and we need to consider however, that the rest of the US is not a typical constituency set like in La.
He is able to pander to constituencies of large groups of Catholics which comprise the majority of the larger cities ( And Private Schools and Univer. in the state). Religion is very important to the people of La. Christians, Jews, Faith Healers, VooDoo, and exorcisms are really practiced there. Thus, the appeasement with the law to embed the educational system with creationism and Darwinism. Also, Napoleonic law is still practiced in La.
UGH

296 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:53pm

re: #246 goddessoftheclassroom

That was at the end of "The Usual Suspects."

297 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:50:56pm

re: #280 JHW
I just can't believe the education system has crapped out that bad. It is appalling.

298 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:51:02pm

re: #287 Steffan

That may actually be proof she is a viable national candidate -- why would they bother if they didn't fear her?

Maybe they are afraid, I don't know, but I think they will keep her unelectable.

299 right_on_target  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:51:26pm

re: #208 hermit

Okay, lemme see if I got this...forgive me if someone brought this up.

Somebody thinks it would be a good idea to go from Chicago politicians to Louisiana politicians....

WTF!?!?!? No wonder some folks don't believe in forward evolution, we'd freakin REGRESS back into the political slime!

Why don't we just hire a roofing company for president...


____________________________________
Actually, we here in Louisiana ARE doing something about getting rid of bad politicians by not re-electing them or getting them under indictment.
For example, Joe Cao [Republican] is running against Dollar Bill and stands a good chance of getting elected.
Louisiana is split into THREE distinct political regions, the Bible Belt North, the Cajun Catholic South and Greater New Orleans.
The Bible Belt North is what brought defeat to Bobby Jindal in his first try at governor in 2003.
So, after victory in the last election, Jindal decided to pay back favors to the Bible Belt Northerners where the Louisiana Science Education Act was actively promoted.

300 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:51:42pm

re: #288 ArmyWife

Newt's ethical compass had some moments of disorientation. If he was a lib it wouldn't matter - heck, look at the parade of freaks in the Dem column what with their male protistution rings, piles of frozen cash and affairs with younger girls - some of whom found dead in parks, others on their knees in the Oval Office. The Libs circle the wagons around their freaks, we kick ours to the curb.

At least we stand on principle.

301 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:51:57pm

re: #292 gringotipico

I don't dislike Gov. Jindal, but I don't see what all these pundits are having wet dreams about... Seems like they're BARELY a step up from the Palin 2012 crowd.

They are clutching for anything. We need to first take the 2010 elections and take one of Obozo's legs out. Then we lean on him.

302 docremulac  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:52:05pm

If Jindal is actually seriously being considered as a Republican candidate I'm convinced Democrats have infiltrated the Republican party enough to have complete control of which candidates get selected. They picked McCain and Huckabee to get rid of Romney and who's the next most obvious looser? Jindal.

He's not a presidential candidate, he's the math club geek that you felt sorry for because the jocks made him eat his calculator.

Watch the Democrat media pick a flattering title for him that they'll yank when necessary. Maverick's already taken. How about "Superdork" Oh wait, I guess that's not flattering. Apt though. Then his media "friends" will whisper in his ear about how he needs to run on a presidential platform of adding an amendment to the constitution outlawing demons or putting references to exorcism in the national anthem.

303 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:52:12pm

Yoo hoo! LesLein, the phantom downdingleberry!
So you are the one...
/Top Gun

Check this out.. I have no issues if you live to downding..maybe it's fun..
But I think maybe you could just throw out a couple of explainations out here once in awhile..People post mostly in Honesty and feelings get hurt with blind downdings..For Example..
I posted something a couple of months ago about if during the Democratic Convention the grateful Dead would have played outside the city the moombats would have never shown up..just in jest..
Well it really upset some lizards and they started downdinging me...
But they had the Moxie to post on-line why they were upset with my post. I respected that..That's all we ask of you.step up to the plate..Something somebody said upset you.. Why?
BTW.. To those posters that were so pissed off about me insulting the Dead..I didn't insult them.. LOL
But I could

304 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:52:40pm

re: #254 rawmuse

Nice.
/thanks.

305 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:52:42pm

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

You just insulted my Grandfather, who fought in 3 wars for you. He was a far cry from a mud hut, thank you very much.

306 kansas  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:52:52pm

re: #300 MandyManners

At least we stand on principle.

Principle, perhaps. Standing? I don't think so. It's more like we fall on principle.

307 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:52:57pm

re: #281 Drained Brain

In my pre-retirement years I was a right-wing high school principal in Canada of all places (not an easy place to be right wing). Our science department head was a typical left-wing unionist type (strong NDP for any Canuck readers). He was a Darwinist (is that the term?) and the more he evangelized about it the more skeptical I became. Can't folks just be agnostic about a few things? Can't there be a little live-and-let-live on the topic to give some of us a chance to let our views evolve?

Just a thought...

Here's a thought: if you don't understand the science, then YOU live-and-let-live. Let those who do understand the science, keep teaching.

308 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

/Maybe the one inhabiting you is particularly tenacious.../

309 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:53:06pm

re: #224 rawmuse

Exorcism is no big deal to me

Can't it sometimes get out of hand?

310 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:53:50pm

Wish I had gotten home sooner, probably too late, people are tired about talking about this....
Gindal is it. Our only hope. Palin is wonderful in many areas, but the media knows she isn't the most articulate person in the world, doesn't use big enough words for her. Newt is very smart, but has way too much baggage.
I couldn't give to F***S about Gindal being a creationist. He is very smart, he uses them big fancy words, wind him up, and he talks, and talks, and talks. Without stuttering, or umming, like Obama does. He can't be tripped up, he knows more than the reporters that would question him.
Now, if folks want to give the other side ammo, they certainly will gladly carry the water on the Creation issue....
He's not perfect, but no one is. I really don't know who certain folks think is better...I see no one that could even begin to have a battle of wits with Obama.
But "they" sure doesn't want Gindal to be the next guy. And they must want a 2 term Obama then...

311 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:54:31pm

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

Well, I'll say it right here, I'm not interested in voting for someone who believes that people can be "possessed" by some "evil entity" and there are rituals that can remove this evil presence from that person.

That's as good as sitting in grass and mud huts in the Middle Ages and casting spells to ward off bad luck.

Don't work for me.

Your ignorance is surpassed only by your bigotry.

312 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:54:40pm

re: #299 right_on_target

... So, after victory in the last election, Jindal decided to pay back favors to the Bible Belt Northerners where the Louisiana Science Education Act was actively promoted.

I don't know if your comment was designed to make us think more highly of Jindal, but your last paragraph above certainly speaks volumes to who he will "suck" up to. I don't want no part of that.

313 Drained Brain  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:54:58pm

re: #307 Zimriel

Here's a thought: if you don't understand the science, then YOU live-and-let-live. Let those who do understand the science, keep teaching.

Yes, I've always thought that about priests and rabbis as well.

314 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:04pm

re: #295 notutopia

Understand I am not saying Jindal is our hope (and change agent!). What I am saying is we need Fiscal and social conservatives in our tent - we need to stand FOR this, and articulate why. We don't need to be insistent that everyone be a religious zealout, or a religious moderate or not religious at all. We need to fight for the right to be any of those things, if we so chose. To say we need to be more "liberal" socially is wrong and gets us no where.

315 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:15pm

re: #151 LesLein

It was Reagan who said that evolution was "just a theory." In 1984 it hurt him a great deal, costing him Minnesota and the District of Columbia.

But seriously folks, the GOP can't possibly win without the social conservatives. This crusade against them amounts to a circular firing squad. As bad as creationism is, it's less harmful than teaching students that humans cause catastrophic global warming, or that we should "spread the wealth."

Next year the Democrats will attempt to give the District of Columbia representation in Congress and implement card check. Instead of opposing these power grabs, let's go after our own side!

The GOP cannot win without appealing to moderates and independents. The religious right agenda is like electoral kryptonite to those voters; they won't even approach any party that embraces it.

316 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:21pm

re: #310 ziggyelman
Ummmm....NO! Jindal is not our only hope. Sheesh. It is a long time till 2012. A lot can happen.

317 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:26pm

re: #207 goddessoftheclassroomF

The cult of global warming has ensnared our energy and economic policy and could conceivably cripple both.


When Newt drank the cool aid I could have thrown up. When Thompson was the only one who didn't raise his hand when asked "Raise Your Hand If Global Warming Is a Serious Threat" I cheered.

318 ornery elephant  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:34pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I certainly won't vote for Jindal. Go ahead and nominate him. He won't win.

Boy, that's a shocker.

319 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:45pm

re: #273 Thanos

Republicans need to go back and read what Thomas Jefferson had to say. There is a lot of sound advice for good governance that still applies today. More than ever really.

320 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:48pm

re: #311 goddessoftheclassroom

There's a fine line between religious belief and magical thinking. I don't want a president who believes in magical solutions to real world problems.

321 JHW  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:55:50pm

re: #297 pingjockey

It almost convinces me that there should be a basic literacy test to vote, which of course would never fly for a variety of reasons. I'll bet most immigrants taking the citizenship test would ace this test easily. Appalling is the right word, and there should be widespread outrage over the failure of a large part of our education system. I couldn't believe what I was reading on the very high percentage of respondents couldn't answer correctly the simplest civics and history questions.

322 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:56:37pm

re: #316 pingjockey

Who then? And I need to type Jindal....good grief!

323 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:56:37pm

*burp*

/blame it on this:

Very Bad Elf Ale

Quite tasty!

324 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:56:46pm

re: #304 Killgore Trout

Nice.
/thanks.

This one is better.

325 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:04pm

re: #288 ArmyWife

Newt's ethical compass had some moments of disorientation. If he was a lib it wouldn't matter - heck, look at the parade of freaks in the Dem column what with their male protistution rings, piles of frozen cash and affairs with younger girls - some of whom found dead in parks, others on their knees in the Oval Office. The Libs circle the wagons around their freaks, we kick ours to the curb.

It's always struck me as oddly humorous and depressing that the left is more forgiving of their moral sinners than the Christian right. Of course they look the other way for their crooks too...

326 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:09pm

re: #315 Salamantis

The GOP cannot win without appealing to moderates and independents. The religious right agenda is like electoral kryptonite to those voters; they won't even approach any party that embraces it.

The GOP can't win without fiscal conservatives. Since 1992.

327 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:15pm

re: #281 Drained Brain

He was a Darwinist (is that the term?)

No, that's not the term.

328 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:18pm

re: #314 ArmyWife

Understand I am not saying Jindal is our hope (and change agent!). What I am saying is we need Fiscal and social conservatives in our tent - we need to stand FOR this, and articulate why. We don't need to be insistent that everyone be a religious zealout, or a religious moderate or not religious at all. We need to fight for the right to be any of those things, if we so chose. To say we need to be more "liberal" socially is wrong and gets us no where.

Although I agree with you, there is an easier way. When you screw with people's money they will NOT vote for you. Fiscal responsibility first.

329 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:32pm

re: #324 rawmuse

Oooh, that's nice.

330 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:33pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

There's a fine line between religious belief and magical thinking. I don't want a president who believes in magical solutions to real world problems.

Isn't he entitled to bis private, personal beliefs and forms of worship?

331 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:34pm

re: #317 Rancher

F


When Newt drank the cool aid I could have thrown up. When Thompson was the only one who didn't raise his hand when asked "Raise Your Hand If Global Warming Is a Serious Threat" I cheered.

Thompson's campaign was so incredibly lackluster that I often wondered if he was on drugs. A good guy, but his advisors were pretty much useless.

332 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:45pm

re: #265 kansas

In my opinion she has not survived as a viable national candidate. Its still like whack a mole. Every time she surfaces Leno and Letterman whack her.


Yes she has and the fact that the left keeps attacking her proves it.

333 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:55pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

Well, we've got one in the WH, starting January 20th.
Hope=Change.
/right/

334 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:57:59pm

re: #160 tradewind

Charles...
The mainstream Catholic church has a procedure..... rarely used, but taken very seriously..... for exorcism.

Yeah, but in the exorcism in which Jiondal participated, no Catholic clergy were present. It was perpetrated by a college campus Christian club.

335 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:07pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

There's a fine line between religious belief and magical thinking. I don't want a president who believes in magical solutions to real world problems.

b,b,b,but, Hope! Change!

You're ruining it!

336 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:38pm

re: #318 ornery elephant

I'm still on the fence with Palin but I probably won't vote for her either.

337 ClosetConservative  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:40pm

re: #303 HoosierHoops

When it comes to downdings and the like, I'd like to reaffirm my belief that Little Green Footballs is not an echo chamber. There are more dissenting in any one thread here than you could find in a day at the Daily Kos, and that's a good thing because it keeps our critical thinking skills sharp. Downdings should be reserved not so much for ideas you find unfavorable, but the manner in which someone states their feelings. You can disagree with something, but I wouldn't advise downdinging it unless the way that something is said is highly inflammatory.

Alright, off the soap box...

338 TheMatrix31  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:43pm

re: #315 Salamantis

The GOP cannot win without appealing to moderates and independents. The religious right agenda is like electoral kryptonite to those voters; they won't even approach any party that embraces it.

And the GOP can't win without appealing to the other end of their base, either. Not going one way or another with my opinion, I don't know yet. Just stating that you have to look out for your people first, then worry about moderates and independents.

339 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:49pm

re: #291 MandyManners

Right here.

LOL, Al 'Do as I say, not as I do' Gore!

340 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:50pm

re: #318 ornery elephant

Boy, that's a shocker.


Zackly! How many votes did KT have? One. I am sure he had the same attitude about Obama's chances. Trouble is, at the end of the day, its all the other votes that count, and they did.

341 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:55pm

re: #331 Perplexed

He didn't want the job.

342 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:58:57pm

Good night, Lizards.

343 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:59:32pm

re: #305 ArmyWife

You just insulted my Grandfather, who fought in 3 wars for you. He was a far cry from a mud hut, thank you very much.

First off, I wasn't responding to a comment by you. Second, I wasn't addressing my comment to anyone in particular. Thirdly, I suspect that I "insulted" hundreds of people who don't agree with me.

But, how the hell can ANYONE have an opinion without probably upsetting someone else's opinions or beliefs.

I don't believe in exorcism, I don't believe in posession and I don't believe in any of the supernatural trapping that go along with it.

So what?

344 caliredst8r  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:59:38pm

re: #249 gclaghorn

Hey, isn't that Arafish's little red folder?

345 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:59:42pm

re: #273 Thanos

We need to look ahead and get out of the defensive stance we had to adapt in mid '05 to defend the ongoing war effort in Iraq. Where the left used to be reactive prisoner to the 24 hour news cycle, we've switched positions with them and become the same sort -- looking for a silver bullet in the next day's papers. That's not going to happen - we need to get out of defensive mode and go offense and persist. We've already lost most everything, we have nothing left to loose by looking ahead and taking strides forward.

In 2012 Iraq will be over but for the historians. Possibly Afghanistan will be as well. There will be new threats, and they will be different. Who in the party is looking at that? Every part of the party needs to challenge themselves, what are they doing exactly for tomorrow's children?

Iraq, for all intents, is over now. This is why you don't see any stories about it in the MSM -- it's over, and we won. Combat deaths in Iraq are below the level of homicides in Chicago. Fallujah is pacified to the point where most of the US presence has been withdrawn.

We will likely be in Afghanistan for a while.... the country can't pretend to be civilized (in the Western sense) in its history -- it's a collection of tribes who are often hostile to each other.

The Bush Administration's main failing is their inability to tell us precisely what we're doing over there and why. Bush needed to explain what he was doing and why he was doing it -- and why he deserved our support. In this, he failed.

I think history will be much kinder to him than current public opinion.

346 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:59:42pm

re: #340 A Kiwi Infidel

Zackly! How many votes did KT have? One. I am sure he had the same attitude about Obama's chances. Trouble is, at the end of the day, its all the other votes that count, and they did.

KT had ZERO votes.

He don't get to bitch.

347 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:59:45pm

re: #290 Desert Dog

McCain was so muddled, nobody knew what he stood for.

I never once got the impression from listening to John McCain speak that he really wanted the job.

348 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 6:59:55pm

Rancher or Rustler?

349 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:10pm

I think it would be smart to carefully examine a candidate if the Washington Post was elevating them on the list of Republican leaders.
Especially when they're already winking at the word "evolving" in the story.

"Here, drink from this wine glass. This one right here."

350 Zimriel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:18pm

re: #305 ArmyWife

You just insulted my Grandfather, who fought in 3 wars for you. He was a far cry from a mud hut, thank you very much.

It is possible for your Grandfather to be a hero, and yet still deluded over certain points. I can't say I agreed with my grandfather (WW2 vet) over every little issue either. Some of his issues were "out there". I still love him and wish he was still around.

A few dozen or hundred generations beforehand, I had ancestors who believed in torturing prisoners for the glory of Odin. I'm sure their Christian grandkids thought they were pretty nice too, apart from the "blood eagle" thing.

351 Drained Brain  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:21pm

re: #327 Last Mohican

No, that's not the term.

See, I don't really give a damn what the term is as long as the government basically leaves me alone to practice my own beliefs or non-beliefs. I can think of far worse effects of the public education system than a fairly piddling controversy about science education. Of course, I'm sufficiently older than many of you to realize how much one actually remembers about what was learned in elementary-school science classes.

352 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:26pm

re: #321 JHW
I wish we could have a test like that. Can you imagine the howling from the left? Mwahaha!They say having a picture ID is onerous. Everyone over the age of 18 by law must have positive proof of who they are on their person. All states issues IDs to nondrivers. You have to have ID to cash a check etc... I'd settle for a positive ID check and paper ballots to vote.

353 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:28pm

re: #315 Salamantis

The GOP cannot win without appealing to moderates and independents. The religious right agenda is like electoral kryptonite to those voters; they won't even approach any party that embraces it.

But, why didn't McCain win then? He WAS mr. Moderate, Mr Independent....and lost by what, 6 % points?

354 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:35pm

re: #342 goddessoftheclassroom

Nite Goddess.

355 gringotipico  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:36pm

re: #301 NYCHardhat

Exactly what I was thinking... We need to be patient, we need to do it from the ground-up just like they did (only with class and true patriotism). We have a few things to get straight as a party (I use the term loosely) before we go off picking our next media victim.

356 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:00:45pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

There's a fine line between religious belief and magical thinking. I don't want a president who believes in magical solutions to real world problems.

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT. You may insult someone grandfather!

357 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:01:06pm

re: #330 goddessoftheclassroom

Isn't he entitled to bis private, personal beliefs and forms of worship?


He certainly is. However he claims that exorcisms can cure cancer. Will he apply this same magical thinking to economics or military operations? It's a sign of bad decision making and flawed logic.

358 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:01:27pm

The Dems win because they tell people what they want to hear - the realization that they're liars comes too late. If the Lizard Nation is representative of Republicans in general, we're in big trouble. Finding a common platform that pleases everyone will be impossible, always has been. Accepting voters from many interests will go much further than exclusion. Most folks' personal beliefs don't even need to be discussed; it's the big issues that warrant our attention.

359 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:01:46pm

re: #346 Racer X


KT had ZERO votes.

He don't get to bitch.


Yet here I am bitching away.

360 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:01:56pm

re: #337 ClosetConservative

When it comes to downdings and the like, I'd like to reaffirm my belief that Little Green Footballs is not an echo chamber. There are more dissenting in any one thread here than you could find in a day at the Daily Kos, and that's a good thing because it keeps our critical thinking skills sharp. Downdings should be reserved not so much for ideas you find unfavorable, but the manner in which someone states their feelings. You can disagree with something, but I wouldn't advise downdinging it unless the way that something is said is highly inflammatory.

Alright, off the soap box...

Oh I agree! But..I think if you are always down dinging lizards..At least step up once in awhile and say why..
Hey..I thing your idea sucks and here is why...But play nice..
But to always be invisible is kind of creepy to me..
/There goes the Karma dang it!

361 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #341 NYCHardhat

He didn't want the job.

Why did he run then?

362 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:09pm

re: #322 ziggyelman
I don't know. It is 4 years away. Obambi could make Jimmah Carter look like a fucking genius and anyone with a pulse could beat the empty suit.

363 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:16pm

re: #353 ziggyelman

But, why didn't McCain win then? He WAS mr. Moderate, Mr Independent....and lost by what, 6 % points?

Do not distract us with the facts!

It don't get any more middle of the road than McCain.

3/4 Democrat.

364 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:17pm

re: #358 RubyTuesday

The Dems win because they tell people what they want to hear - the realization that they're liars comes too late. If the Lizard Nation is representative of Republicans in general, we're in big trouble. Finding a common platform that pleases everyone will be impossible, always has been. Accepting voters from many interests will go much further than exclusion. Most folks' personal beliefs don't even need to be discussed; it's the big issues that warrant our attention.

That painting with a broad brush, isn't it?

365 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:22pm

Most religions, and Christianity in particular, are highly supernatural.

366 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:23pm

re: #357 Killgore Trout

He certainly is. However he claims that exorcisms can cure cancer. Will he apply this same magical thinking to economics or military operations? It's a sign of bad decision making and flawed logic.

His *personal* beliefs allowed to push creationism in the classroom BY LAW. This is a serious issue.

367 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:23pm

re: #349 jaunte

I think it would be smart to carefully examine a candidate if the Washington Post was elevating them on the list of Republican leaders.
Especially when they're already winking at the word "evolving" in the story.

"Here, drink from this wine glass. This one right here."

Absolutely! It's like we didn't learn a damn thing.

368 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:34pm

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT. You may insult someone grandfather!

Both my grandfathers are dead. Asshole it up; it (was) a free country.

369 ornery elephant  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:43pm

Wre: #315 Salamantis

The GOP cannot win without appealing to moderates and independents. The religious right agenda is like electoral kryptonite to those voters; they won't even approach any party that embraces it.

If you mean the GOP has to appeal to them by choosing pro-abortion, anti-religious stances, embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage rights and immigration amnesty....then I guess I don't want to win that bad in 2012.

370 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:43pm

re: #310 ziggyelman


Gindal is it.

If you think he's "it", you should probably try to spell his name correctly. Just sayin'.

371 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:02:57pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout
Religious belief IS supernatural thinking. In God, not in voodoo.

372 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:09pm

re: #361 Perplexed

Why did he run then?

You got me.

373 theheat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:14pm

re: #338 TheMatrix31

If the GOP did not pander to the religious supporters, then who, exactly, would the religious voters vote for? If given no choice, my guess is they would still vote GOP if it represented a more fiscally responsible government.

Take religion out of the equation, the religious voters have to vote on mainstream issues, same as everyone else.

374 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:20pm

re: #359 Killgore Trout

Yet here I am bitching away.

What was that?

Did anyone hear something?

375 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:22pm

There's too much emphasis on presidential politics. I'd like to see a bunch of people like Palin, Jindal, Giuliani, etc. run for the Senate on a fiscal sanity/reform/small govt platform and then try to shake things up when they get to Washington.
We need people in Congress who can articulate Reaganite values.

376 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:24pm

re: #370 Occasional Reader

If you think he's "it", you should probably try to spell his name correctly. Just sayin'.

ROFL

377 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:26pm

re: #237 Sharmuta

If democrats continue to be allowed to look like the party of fiscal restraint, republicans are going to lose. As long as republicans want to act like drunken liberals with the money of the American people, we will lose.

Indeed. But democrats are often far more corrupt and insane with money than Republicans could ever hope to be.

Jamie Gorelick, Franklin Raines.. Chris Dodd...

the list goes on and on

378 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:29pm

OT: Is anyone else having problems with "Remember Me" checkboxes on all sites in Firefox 3?

379 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:40pm

re: #367 Sharmuta

I'm picturing the media as Lucy in Peanuts, setting the football up for us yutzes to try another kick.

380 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:03:42pm
381 maximoso  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:09pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

More Jindahl bashing. How delightful.

Seriously guys - The POTUS election isn't coming for 4 years. Can we focus on issues that are relevant TODAY - rather than pre-emptively trying to smear a guy to take him out. I don't like or dislike the guy - he's interesting - but hardly worthy of thrashing or promoting to the level this site advocates.

Jindahl is governing Louisiana. The only thing important today is whether or not his constituency likes him. In 4 years - we can peel apart his record for evaluation. So far - I've seen the education bill which I read and found nothing worthy of the amount of attention this site gives to smearing the guy.

I think analysis of Obama's cabinet appointments would be alot more fruitful than Taking out Jindahl 4 years before it's relevant.

Awh heck - maybe we should take out all the Republican CANDIDATESs. Then we can vote for McCain again in 2012 by default. Losing the POTUS General Election 2 yeas in a row would be a pretty cool achievement for McCain.

382 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:23pm

re: #366 Wishing

His *personal* beliefs allowed to push creationism in the classroom BY LAW. This is a serious issue.


Agreed. That's my concern with Palin as well. I don't give a shit if she hates gays, most Christian do. But she crosses the line when she wants to amend the Constitution. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I don't want them forced on me.

383 Elcid  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:25pm

If one starts with the premise that the Left and their media propagandists are going to be running a gotcha' campaign against anyone on the Right side of the aisle, for the next four years, your answer is clear...Obama for Four More.

The hope is, that the Constitution still stands as whole and that it is STILL the written guiding document, that it ends the Obama years.

384 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:31pm

re: #377 FrogMarch

Indeed. But democrats are often far more corrupt and insane with money than Republicans could ever hope to be.

Jamie Gorelick, Franklin Raines.. Chris Dodd...

the list goes on and on

True- but the media don't play like dat, Homes.

385 jamie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:33pm

So, to sum up...

1. Creationist.
2. Keeping with the anti-science theme, is opposed to embryonic stem-cell research.
3. An ally of Grover Norquist, who while not anti-Israel, isn't exactly Jerusalem's best friend.
4. Abortion nut.
5. Exorcisms.

What a dream candidate!

/

386 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:34pm

re: #378 gclaghorn

OT: Is anyone else having problems with "Remember Me" checkboxes on all sites in Firefox 3?

Ok, I'll bite: What is a remember me check box?

387 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:04:40pm

re: #348 Sharmuta

Rancher or Rustler?

Oh, the Rancher and the Rustler can be friends...

(something like that)

388 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:04pm

re: #379 jaunte

I'm picturing the media as Lucy in Peanuts, setting the football up for us yutzes to try another kick.

THAT'S IT!

/picture Linus shouting as Snoopy rolls away startled

389 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:07pm

re: #283 Gordon Marock

The real fear stems from Al Gore thinking he might not collect the hundreds of millions from the carbon trading companies and schemes he has bought in to. That is why gore's tone will become more and more strident despite the mounting contrary evidence. In order to have cap and trade, someone must facilitate the trading.

I've noticed two things: He will not debate the concept, and he will not allow the MSM to even be present during his speeches.

Makes ya wonder what he has to hide, hmmmmm? :)

390 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:09pm

The bottom line is that the social conservatives have nowhere to go, despite their threats to boycott certain candidates. We need to force a rational, principled candidate on them who focuses on fiscal and national security issues in order to save the GOP. Let them threaten their boycott.

391 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:10pm

re: #351 Drained Brain

I can think of far worse effects of the public education system than a fairly piddling controversy about science education.

I would not characterize the right of children to learn the most basic principle that underlies the entire scientific study of life as a "fairly piddling controversy about science education."

392 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:13pm

re: #362 pingjockey

I don't know. It is 4 years away. Obambi could make Jimmah Carter look like a fucking genius and anyone with a pulse could beat the empty suit.

But, it's not 4 years away anymore. It's more than likely less than 24 months away.
Name a Republican that is going to appeal across the board. Take off Palin and Jindal's names...
Go ahead, I double dog dare ya! ;)

393 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:20pm

re: #371 RubyTuesday

Religious belief IS supernatural thinking. In God, not in voodoo.


I really don't see them as that separate.

394 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:27pm

re: #368 OldLineTexan

Both my grandfathers are dead. Asshole it up; it (was) a free country.

I was being sarcastic with Killgore. It's was in reference to ArmyWife who siad to me...

re: #305 ArmyWife

You just insulted my Grandfather, who fought in 3 wars for you. He was a far cry from a mud hut, thank you very much.

I wasn't dumping on anyones grandfather.

395 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:29pm

re: #364 Walter L. Newton
Just the opposite, Chaaaaahles.

396 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:42pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout

Agreed. That's my concern with Palin as well. I don't give a shit if she hates gays, most Christian do. But she crosses the line when she wants to amend the Constitution. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I don't want them forced on me.

She said she wanted to amend the constitution? I must have missed that!

397 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:54pm

re: #386 Wishing

Ok, I'll bite: What is a remember me check box?

In the login box, the checkbox which you check off to keep your password saved as a cookie so you don't have to log in every time you open a site.

398 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:05:56pm

re: #358 RubyTuesday

The Dems win because they tell people what they want to hear - the realization that they're liars comes too late. If the Lizard Nation is representative of Republicans in general, we're in big trouble. Finding a common platform that pleases everyone will be impossible, always has been. Accepting voters from many interests will go much further than exclusion. Most folks' personal beliefs don't even need to be discussed; it's the big issues that warrant our attention.

Ain't that the truth. If you run as something you are not, it's easy to lie out of both sides of your mouth.

I can almost hear the KOS Kiddies and MoveOn.org seething from here when they are looking at Obama's appointments. They are hardly the left wing crazies they wanted in there. It's more like Clinton Lite. That is one reason I have always been against the Dems.......the think intentions are what matters...not results.

399 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:08pm

re: #315 Salamantis

The GOP cannot win without appealing to moderates and independents. The religious right agenda is like electoral kryptonite to those voters; they won't even approach any party that embraces it.

Again, had McCain gotten as many Republican votes as Bush did he would have won. Despite a horrendous economy and a bright new shining young Kennedyesque historic candidate. We don't need to abandon our base to appeal to this or that group, conservatism will win.

400 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:19pm

re: #384 Sharmuta

True- but the media don't play like dat, Homes.

no - they do not. State run DNC media don't want to show us any truth.

401 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:20pm

re: #185 ArmyWife

"We cannot survive as a free nation when some men decide that others are not fit to live and should be abandoned to abortion or infanticide"

" Society has always regarded marital love as a sacred expression of the bond between a man and a woman. It is the means by which families are created and society itself is extended into the future. In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is the means by which husband and wife participate with G-d in the creation of new human life. It is for these reasons, among others, that our society has always sought to protect this unique relationship. In par the erosion of these values has given way to a celebration of forms of expression most reject. We will resist the efforts of some to obtain government endorsement of homosexuality"

Ronald Reagan.

(Could it be that Reagan had a stand and could articulate it rather than checking the current wind direction for his "thoughts"?)

You DO know, of course, that while he was California governor, Reagan signed one of the most liberal abortion bills in the nation into law, right? I'm sure that as a one-time head of the Screen Actors Guild, he also knew his share of homosexuals. My guess is that he took those religious right positions for electoral convenience. But they're not so convenient any more.

Reagan was not perfect. After all, he did ignominiously withdraw from Lebanon after the Hez blew away a barracks full of our Marines there and an embassy full of US personnel. That "hurt them and they'll run" message has not been lost on jihadis.

402 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:21pm

re: #392 ziggyelman

But, it's not 4 years away anymore. It's more than likely less than 24 months away.
Name a Republican that is going to appeal across the board. Take off Palin and Jindal's names...
Go ahead, I double dog dare ya! ;)

Michael Steele

403 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:27pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

I'm still on the fence with Palin but I probably won't vote for her either.

KT, she comes from a state where MJ is legal and did nothing to change that. She comes from a state where you keep your damned nose out of other people's business, and so far has governed that way, as you can tell by her approval rating. On average the AK electorate is younger, more highly educated, and better read than the average person in the lower forty eight, you have to do something during those long winter nights. There's strong support for science in the state, and I don't see that flagging under her.

404 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:30pm

re: #380 buzzsawmonkey

Okay okay okay, IS HE AN ASTEROID, sheesh, tough room...

405 AceR  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:06:38pm

For so many years (since 1972-1998) I voted for anyone who had a (D) after their name. Didn't matter to me who they were or what they stood for. I was against the Republican party because they were not the party of the little man---they didn't care enough for ordinary people like me, but instead were the party of the rich.

Then one day I began to examine what the Democrats stood for: welfare, abortion and Planned Parenthood, higher taxes---including mine, but especially on the rich---to fund their social programs, education systems that didn't educate our children, unions (like the NEA), the ACLU, the secularization of society, weaker defense, and judges that frankly made rulings that made my head spin. I got fed up with all of the embarrassments and scandals of the likes of Bill Clinton, Edward Kennedy, Barney Frank, Tip O'Neil, Gary Hart. Hollywood stars made me sick as they were a bizarre bunch, supporting the Democrats with their traitorous (Jane Fonda), and often vile anti-American rantings and I finally decided to change my party affiliation.

Now to be totally honest with you all, I also became a Christian in 1998. And for me, the pivitol issue was abortion. My reasoning was this: If the person I wanted to support for any office didn't want to protect the most innocent of those among us, then how could I be assured that they would protect me or my loved ones if we became vulnerable and innocent, maybe like my father who was suffering from Alzheimers, or my mother who suffered from a stroke?

If a candidate wouldn't stand up for the weakest among us, then what assurances did I have that they would protect me and defend me and those that I love from those who wish to do us harm? How could they say they will protect little children in schools, if they were willing to allow the NEA to install sub-standard teachers to oversee the sub-standard curriculum in the education of our children? Where were the assurances that they would protect our children from pornography, especially child pornography, if they supported the efforts of the ACLU and organizations like NAMBLA? How could they instill in younger generations the value of a good work ethic if they allowed welfare to continue almost unchecked?

I am now a Republican, but I can no more set aside my religious views when considering a candidate for my vote in favor of only deciding whether a candidate should receive my vote based on fiscal or security issues. For me, I will look at the whole package. But I will tell you this: how a candidate views abortion, whether it be partial-birth, 1st trimester, or in the case of infants who survive botched abortions, I feel as though the candidate reveals him/herself to me by how they view the rights of the unborn or newly born.

Republicans can shove people like me to the sidelines and try to marginalize me in the party, and I will leave and find another candidate to vote for.

For me it is simple. If a candidate goes the way of actively supporting a woman's "right" to choose vs. the baby's "right" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness guaranteed in our Constitution, then they will lose my vote.

406 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:07:06pm

re: #396 Wishing

Yup.

407 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:07:21pm

re: #371 RubyTuesday

Religious belief IS supernatural thinking. In God, not in voodoo.

So, what kind of "thinking" is related to voodoo?

408 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:07:49pm

re: #397 gclaghorn

In the login box, the checkbox which you check off to keep your password saved as a cookie so you don't have to log in every time you open a site.

Oh ok...sometimes it remembers, sometimes not. It depends on how you have the cookies set. I think I have mine to cancel the cookie when I close the page.

409 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:07:49pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

I wasn't dumping on anyones grandfather.

Hell, I know. I was trying to help you out. I may not agree with what you say, but I will get drunk and argue about your right to say it.

/

410 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:07:57pm

re: #379 jaunte

I'm picturing the media as Lucy in Peanuts, setting the football up for us yutzes to try another kick.

Absolutely! It should be triggering red flags and warning bells. Hellooooo?!

Maybe a poll is in order. The MSM likes Bobby Jindal. We should:

A) Think twice
B) Think it's our lucky day!
C) Run away!
D) Ron Paul

411 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:07pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout
Whoa, KT, I agree about the not amending the constitution. But it's not correct or fair to say that most Christians hate gays.

412 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:37pm

re: #400 FrogMarch

no - they do not. State run DNC media don't want to show us any truth.

Word.

413 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:47pm

re: #347 mich-again

I never once got the impression from listening to John McCain speak that he really wanted the job.

His campaign was almost a repeat of Bob Dole's campaign.

414 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:47pm

re: #410 Sharmuta

Absolutely! It should be triggering red flags and warning bells. Hellooooo?!

Maybe a poll is in order. The MSM likes Bobby Jindal. We should:

A) Think twice
B) Think it's our lucky day!
C) Run away!
D) Ron Paul

72 acorn votes for D

415 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:49pm

re: #396 Wishing

She said she wanted to amend the constitution? I must have missed that!

Lord knows I did. Take a couple days off and the world goes to hell in a handbasket, I tells ya.

416 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:52pm

re: #408 Wishing

Oh ok...sometimes it remembers, sometimes not. It depends on how you have the cookies set. I think I have mine to cancel the cookie when I close the page.

The cookies are staying, but I still have to re-login. Let me check my cookie prefs.

417 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:08:56pm

re: #348 Sharmuta

Rancher or Rustler?

Real Rancher here, Rustler you will hear from all night tonight after 11:00 pm, I'll be in bed.

418 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:09:15pm

re: #409 OldLineTexan

Hell, I know. I was trying to help you out. I may not agree with what you say, but I will get drunk and argue about your right to say it.

/

Sorry, in the heat of all this, I misunderstood your comment.

419 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:09:39pm

re: #404 Occasional Reader

Okay okay okay, IS HE AN ASTEROID, sheesh, tough room...

They got creams for that now...

420 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:09:41pm
421 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:09:51pm

re: #406 Killgore Trout

Yup.

Well it is a state, not federal issue, imo.

422 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:09:52pm

re: #402 NYCHardhat

Michael Steele

Ok, a good name, like him a lot...but, he lost that senate race, right? Who's going to vote for a guy who's never been a senator, or Governor?

423 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:09:56pm

re: #392 ziggyelman
Can't. Then again, where was obambi in 2006? I do believe that if obambi was a white chicago hack pol he wouldn't have even sniffed the US Senate, let alone a run at the White House.

424 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:10:01pm

re: #411 RubyTuesday

But it's not correct or fair to say that most Christians hate gays.


My experience tells me otherwise. I know there's the "love the sinner hate the sin" disclaimer but it doesn't really match with the reality I've experienced.

425 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:10:28pm

re: #417 Rancher

Just checking, Pop.

426 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:10:59pm

re: #421 Wishing

I don't see it as a state issue. It's a human rights issue.

427 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:02pm
428 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:03pm

re: #404 Occasional Reader

Okay okay okay, IS HE AN ASTEROID, sheesh, tough room...

He could prove to be a HAEMORRHOID, a real pain in the ass.

429 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:07pm

re: #381 maximoso

This could be paraphrased from the same posts that Stinky autodeletes from creationism threads.

/it's boring, nothing here to see, there are better things to talk about, why don't you post what I want Charles?

430 right_on_target  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:19pm

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

I don't know if your comment was designed to make us think more highly of Jindal, but your last paragraph above certainly speaks volumes to who he will "suck" up to. I don't want no part of that.


_______________________________
Really, it doesn't matter as Jindal is not running for POTUS. One of his main tenets is to get all three political areas of Louisiana on the same page. Up until his administration the three political areas were constantly at odds with each other.

431 Drained Brain  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:23pm

re: #391 Last Mohican

I would not characterize the right of children to learn the most basic principle that underlies the entire scientific study of life as a "fairly piddling controversy about science education."

It didn't affect me one way or the other. Read what you've written. Substitute a word here and there and it would fit the rant of any religious zealot, which is of course my point.

One of my brothers-in-law is one of those devout proselytyzing athiests so I know the type.

432 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:40pm

re: #427 buzzsawmonkey

Ha!
/ you said it, I didn't

433 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:44pm

re: #393 Killgore Trout

I really don't see them as that separate.

Ah yes, thank goodness for all the Voodoo the Founding Fathers brought with them from England! Yep, that Voodoo forged our cultural and social beliefs. I am very pleased that Voodoo ethics and morays are the norm here in the western world. I am not very religious, but I do give credit where credit is due, and our Judeo-Christian heritage is one of the main reasons the west came to dominate the globe. It was not Voodoo or Hindism or Wiccan that brought together the perfect union of personal responsibility and freewill that has made the western world thrive.

434 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:47pm

re: #413 Steffan

His campaign was almost a repeat of Bob Dole's campaign.

Yep. Who cares if I can actually get elected? Its my turn to be the nominee!

435 ornery elephant  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:51pm

re: #403 Thanos

I'm thinking it's more the fact that she owns a King James Bible.

436 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:11:52pm

re: #405 AceR

Well put!

437 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:12:01pm
his and his wife Supriya’s decision in 1997 to enter into a Louisiana covenant marriage that prohibits no-fault divorce in the state;


The Washington Post seems to think that this, too, is a black mark against him.

How does that go? Would it be another mark against his character, if he paid a debt? Kept an inconvenient promise?

At the level of state governor, he can't make science education in Louisiana much worse than it already is, but he can make state government more effective and honest across the board. He's doing that. Louisiana has come a long way in the past few years under his intelligently designed program of reform.

By choosing to stand in the camp of the anti-science crowd he's disqualified himself from the presidency (not legally, but practically.) So be it. But this doesn't make him a bad state governor. Compared to the succession of crooks and very dim bulbs who have gone before, he's Louisiana's Great NotWhite Hope.

A sense of proportion is needed here. A man may have faults, even serious faults, yet be a positive force when weighed in the balance.

438 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:12:16pm

re: #407 Walter L. Newton
Amendment: Religious belief IS supernatural. I'm a Christian, so my belief is in Jesus Christ as Lord. All religious belief is not the same, as in voodoo, Islam, etc.
I suspect you knew what I meant, but I'll play your game this time. I type slower than I think, so my posts come out abbreviated. Next time, I'll type even more slowly so you can understand.

439 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:12:17pm

re: #422 ziggyelman

Ok, a good name, like him a lot...but, he lost that senate race, right? Who's going to vote for a guy who's never been a senator, or Governor?

Good point.

440 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:12:45pm

re: #426 Killgore Trout

I don't see it as a state issue. It's a human rights issue.

What I mean is this: if an individual STATE decides to make some ruling, fine. If they dont choose to, fine as well. It doesn't belong in a federal court.

441 ozymandias  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:12:47pm

before there were the lizaroids there was a single lizard, created by the almighty force.

442 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:12:59pm

re: #420 buzzsawmonkey

There is a difference between worshipping forces of nature, or gods that represent them, and worshipping the Creator of nature. There is a difference between importuning the Creator, and trying to jigger the divine will with potions and paraphernalia.

So, in voodoo we have...

Potions
Dolls
Chants
Curses
Orgasmic Dancing
Ritual

In the Roman Catholic Church we have...

Holy Water
Icons
Repetitive prayer
Evil Eye (in some cultures)
Charismatic services
Ritual

Hmmmmm... hard to tell the difference. One mans religion is another mans cult.

443 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:08pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

I wasn't dumping on anyones grandfather.

Walter, no need to explain yourself. It is not your comments that anger people, it's that f'ing hat!

444 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:18pm

re: #378 gclaghorn

OT: Is anyone else having problems with "Remember Me" checkboxes on all sites in Firefox 3?

Not offhand. Might be your particular download. Try reinstalling it.

445 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:22pm

re: #381 maximoso

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

More Jindahl bashing. How delightful.

Seriously guys - The POTUS election isn't coming for 4 years. Can we focus on issues that are relevant TODAY - rather than pre-emptively trying to smear a guy to take him out. I don't like or dislike the guy - he's interesting - but hardly worthy of thrashing or promoting to the level this site advocates.

Jindahl is governing Louisiana. The only thing important today is whether or not his constituency likes him. In 4 years - we can peel apart his record for evaluation. So far - I've seen the education bill which I read and found nothing worthy of the amount of attention this site gives to smearing the guy.

I think analysis of Obama's cabinet appointments would be alot more fruitful than Taking out Jindahl 4 years before it's relevant.

Awh heck - maybe we should take out all the Republican CANDIDATESs. Then we can vote for McCain again in 2012 by default. Losing the POTUS General Election 2 yeas in a row would be a pretty cool achievement for McCain.

If you don't like it, you don't have to read it. This is Charles's blog, and he can post what he wants, even if some users disagree with it.

446 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:31pm

re: #409 OldLineTexan

Hell, I know. I was trying to help you out. I may not agree with what you say, but I will get drunk and argue about your right to say it.

/

Hear, hear!

I mean... you and what army?!

447 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:43pm

re: #433 Desert Dog

Ah yes, thank goodness for all the Voodoo the Founding Fathers brought with them from England! Yep, that Voodoo forged our cultural and social beliefs. I am very pleased that Voodoo ethics and morays are the norm here in the western world. I am not very religious, but I do give credit where credit is due, and our Judeo-Christian heritage is one of the main reasons the west came to dominate the globe. It was not Voodoo or Hindism or Wiccan that brought together the perfect union of personal responsibility and freewill that has made the western world thrive.


Well said, it just tragic that it is all being kicked to touch in the name of separation of Church and State.

448 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:51pm

Just throwing this out, but have you guys ever heard of Gary Johnson?

449 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:13:58pm

re: #343 Walter L. Newton

Simply stating its "your opinion" doesn't make it acceptable as if "my opinion" is a magic wand used to erase being a biggot. As for your "so what", I don't care if you believe in exorcism - I personally don't. I also don't care to insult Catholics who do believe in this by referring to them as idiotic hut dwellers. Would you be tolerant of someone referring to a Yarmulke in a derogatory manner? What about the lovely comments on Jews being greedy or cheap, would that be OK? I would suggest it isn't, and neither was your comment.

450 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:14:04pm

re: #433 Desert Dog

It was not Voodoo or Hindism or Wiccan that brought together the perfect union of personal responsibility and freewill that has made the western world thrive.


Of course not. It was secular humanism and Enlightenment philosophy that is responsible for our country and our constitution. In fact, those are the principles responsible for freedom wherever it is found.

451 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:14:04pm
452 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:14:10pm

re: #365 rawmuse

I think that they are almost by definition supernatural.
There seems that there are two divides among this sampling of people. One between theists and atheists, and one between both of those and ANTItheist.

By antitheist I am attempting to describe those who believe that anyone who has strong religious convictions is somehow less capable of serving in the capacity of the POTUS.

There is no difference in my mind between exorcisms and believing in Hindu gods, or between satan worship and the Presbyterian Church. I think I read somewhere that a majority of educated Icelanders believe in Faeries.

Whatever.

I don't think eliminating everyone but atheists and (even worse in my mind) hypocrites who choose a church on the basis of political expediency(read BHO at Trinity whatever) is going to result in finding a competitive and worthy candidate to champion conservatism.

453 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:14:28pm

re: #424 Killgore Trout
I'm sorry, then. I have friends who are gay. Without exception, every one of them has told me their lives are hard because of it. My "remedy" for it comes from my Christian beliefs but would not be embraced by them, so I shut up and love them.

454 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:14:49pm

re: #382 Killgore Trout

Agreed. That's my concern with Palin as well. I don't give a shit if she hates gays, most Christian do. But she crosses the line when she wants to amend the Constitution. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I don't want them forced on me.


Did she say she wanted to amend the Constitution?

455 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:08pm

re: #410 Sharmuta

Absolutely! It should be triggering red flags and warning bells. Hellooooo?!

Maybe a poll is in order. The MSM likes Bobby Jindal. We should:

A) Think twice
B) Think it's our lucky day!
C) Run away!
D) Ron Paul

D.

:p

456 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:10pm

re: #381 maximoso

but hardly worthy of thrashing or promoting to the level this site advocates.

What a load of crap! He's the one getting the press right now, so if you have a problem with his promotion as much as any criticisms, perhaps you should take it up with the media who can't seem to get enough of this guy.

They are already starting again- trying to shape the field of play. The media just foisted one candidate on the electorate- are we really going to let them get away with another one? This one to our detriment as it will guarantee 4 more years of 0bama.

457 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:18pm

re: #442 Walter L. Newton
And you are so above it all. It sucks to be everyone but you.

458 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:22pm
459 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:40pm

re: #446 Occasional Reader

Hear, hear!

I mean... you and what army?!

I have used voodoo to animate my large GI Joe collection. Watch your ankles and calves, unbeliever and infidels. Fear the dull edges and slightly point tips of their plastic bayonets.

/

460 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:48pm

re: #440 Wishing

What I mean is this: if an individual STATE decides to make some ruling, fine. If they dont choose to, fine as well. It doesn't belong in a federal court.

The problem is that it violates the constitution of the united states. States can not discriminate against blacks, jews, or gays.

461 Jamie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:15:52pm

re: #405 AceR

For me it is simple. If a candidate goes the way of actively supporting a woman's "right" to choose vs. the baby's "right" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness guaranteed in our Constitution, then they will lose my vote.

And while I respect your right to this opinion, it is this very line of thought that has always made me allergic to the GOP base. I have little-to-nothing in common with those who would elevate the rights of a fetus to an equal or higher point than that of an actual human being.

On one hand, the Kos crowd that has, post-election, gone into "Ayers was misunderstood" or "Israel is responsible for the violence in the M.E." is a turn-off to me, to say the least. Equally noxious to me is social conservatism--abortion, creationism, gay rights, stem cells. On all these issues, the right is simply dead wrong, which makes most Republicans on my ballot (being in the South) very difficult, if not impossible for me to vote for.

462 gclaghorn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:14pm

re: #444 Steffan

Not offhand. Might be your particular download. Try reinstalling it.

Thanks! Trying it now. Fingers crossed!

463 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:22pm

re: #454 Hobbes

Yes.

464 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:24pm

re: #370 Occasional Reader
Okay.... you should run for office.... because while all of us were thinking it, you gave it a voice. Kudos.
:)

465 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:31pm

re: #442 Walter L. Newton

Ha! Big difference, bucko, there's no orgasmic dancing in Catholicism!

466 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:35pm

re: #349 jaunte

The MSM will fricassee any GOP candidate. And if the candidate were perfect, they'd make something up and repeat it over and over and over.
The question is not whether Giuliani cross-dressed, or Palin shot Bambi, or Bush had a drinking problem years ago, or Newt was a lousy husband, or Jindal was at an exorcism when he was in college, or whether Reagan believed in astrology.
The question is how the candidate will deal with the negative press and what he offers in a positive sense.
And the WHAT at this point is more important than the WHO.

467 MPH  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:39pm

This is who the press wants us to get behind -- a sure loser.

468 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:16:46pm

re: #401 Salamantis

I don't believe he was perfect - no one is perfect. I DO believe people learn and grow from their mistakes. At the age of 17-20ish, I was very conservative, but felt abortion was a woman's "right". I know better now. That said, I still don't believe in absolutes - but I am a Socon. I am not a overly religious, though. I believe Reagan's message, including his imperfections, is what our party needs. We've been running on the fumes of Reagan's message, those fumes have run out. Someone needs to relight the fire, baby!

469 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:09pm

Wingsuit insane

Angels!

470 Perplexed  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:11pm

'Night all. Long day of driving.

471 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #396 Wishing

I don't think I saw that either. Was that in reference to gay marriage? That's a shame.

I personally think that we need to do away with separate tax brackets for married and singles.

472 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:12pm

re: #443 Gordon Marock

Walter, no need to explain yourself. It is not your comments that anger people, it's that f'ing hat!

Ok, now you've overstepped the line. I am going to give you the Evil Eye, as soon as I'm through poking the pins in my Gordon Marock voodoo doll and then I will send Oral Roberts Junior 100 dollars to pray for your soul. That'll teach ya.

473 razorbacker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:43pm

It would be nice to have a conservative President of the United States, but the real problem is not the POTUS.

The problem is our elected represenatives and senators. And a cadre of lefty government employees.

Murtha? Re-elected.

Schumer? Safe seat.

Pelosi? Safe seat.

Franks? Safe seat.

Dodd? Safe seat.

McCain? Safe seat? We shall see.

Reid? Safe seat.

Kennedy? Only God has proven able to stop Teddy. Well, that and the fact that Oldsmobliles don't float.

MN came within a hair of electing a fourth rate comedian. He may still steal his seat.

Get elected to the Senate and you have a job for life. Almost the same for Represenatives.

What about our favorite Klansman? Safely re-elected even though he has to be led by his hand and instructed which way to vote.

We all complain about the rotten state of Congress, then go right on re-electing the very people responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

We never learn.

474 RickJ  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:49pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

I was about to ding you up, then I read this:

Who is saying such things? Most of the scientists I've read have not, nor would not say such a thing- it would be unscientific for them to do so.

scientists? - I would hope they deal in what they know for the most part and don't venture too much into what they don't or can't know, but there are plenty of other opinion givers to be found. Often enough they make reaching assumptions beyond the limits of current knowledge.

Heres something else -

Evolution is a tough thing and I just see no upside to it. Essentially it means that there can be no hope for any individual beyond the current life. So when you stop breathing - thats it - you're done.

Human beings for the most part hate that whole idea. Thats why they hope for life extension developements and such ridiculous things as transferring their minds into futuristic computers at death.

Some even express "faith" that this will occur in current lifetimes. Crazy religion that one - but it does demonstrate to me that man is essentially a religious being.

475 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:17:59pm

re: #448 Rancher

Just throwing this out, but have you guys ever heard of Gary Johnson?

He opposes the War on Drugs, he opposed the Iraq War from the start, and was the only Republican Governor in 2000 to not endorse George W. Bush for President.

Lost me already. Sorry.

476 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:18:01pm

re: #442 Walter L. Newton

I bet you cringe in disgust when you hear some superstitious fool tell an actor "Break a leg" for good luck.

477 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:18:16pm

When in doubt, kill your tv.

478 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:18:31pm

re: #5 Charles

Charles -

Look at it in another way. IF Gov. Jindal can get Louisiana straightened out - I wouldn't care if he were a "Reform Druid" - bowing to bushes rather than trees! If he, like JFK, could separate his personal beliefs from affairs of state - he can compete for my vote. He may NOT get it - AND - that is fine. My beliefs may seem quaint to some - AND - they are my beliefs.
Must they be the beliefs of others? No! - AND - I wish they were the Aspirations of those folks - AND - I am not Ha-Shem, AND can therefore Not Judge. That is all.

-S-

479 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:18:36pm

re: #423 pingjockey

Can't. Then again, where was obambi in 2006? I do believe that if obambi was a white chicago hack pol he wouldn't have even sniffed the US Senate, let alone a run at the White House.

But recall how Obama was a guest speaker at the 2004 Dem convention...got a lot of press(big shock) who was the Republican like that this summer? Did Jindal even speak there?

Republican party is really weak right now. I'm hoping 2010 will give us some smart, fed up folks(Like many here-smart folks here, run dammit!) but, that is too late for 2012....someone HAS to be ready to start running in 2 years.

I like Palin a lot, and if she would be up against Hillary, I'd like her chances...against the Chosen one? No way in hell will she have a chance....

I forgot about Rudy, someone mentioned him above....but, he will be older, and further out of office....can he still run a serious campaign?

480 maximoso  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:18:49pm

" re:382

Agreed. That's my concern with Palin as well. I don't give a shit if she hates gays, most Christian do. But she crosses the line when she wants to amend the Constitution. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I don't want them forced on me. "

Never mind the fact that Palin actually has a " RECORD " to evaluate how she governs - and nothing in her " RECORD " shows any policy of her pushing her Personal beliefs of abortion forced on anyone. The Library Book censorship story was proven to be a " spin job " by the left to smear her as some Religious nutjob. Ranks right up there with Sarah Palin adopting her pregnant daughter's baby story in the ENQUIRER.

She's very strong Christian - believes in her faith - and unashamedly pro-life. She would love it if everybody agreed with her ( wouldn't we all wish everybody agreed with us on all issues ) but doesn't assume they do and doesn't use her office to push her personal religious beliefs on Alaskans. She's just not afraid to tell people who she is as a person.

Personally, I find that refreshing of a politician. Sure beats the heck out of pandering different messages to each group of voters - and revealing yourself to the public once ya win an election.

481 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:18:55pm

re: #457 RubyTuesday

And you are so above it all. It sucks to be everyone but you.

I am far from above anyone here. But, I do have my opinions. And it seems, at least tonight (and maybe lately) that you an I don't see quite the same on some issues.

But, it appears that your problem is you can't accept that simple fact, so you resort to snide comments, like above.

So what.

482 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:05pm

re: #450 Killgore Trout

I think Gov. Jindal needs to come over your house....with a young priest and an old priest...

Secular humanists that all believed in god, no? The Enlightenment was not a rejection of religion either, it has just played out that way in the modern world.

I am not religious, btw. I have studied religions and find them fascinating, but I am a distant relative of Thomas, I need to see it to believe it. So far, I am a dyslexic agnostic, I just do not know if there is a dog.

483 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:08pm

Exorcism, like prayer, can work if you believe. If faith can't produce miracles what the hell is the placebo effect that is figured into every clinical test of a drug?

484 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:20pm

re: #458 buzzsawmonkey

You seem to take that as proving something about "hating gays." Which, of course, it doesn't.


No, that's not what I'm going for at all. However, no matter how much churches preach against gays and homosexuality there's about a 10% chance that the person sitting next to you in church is gay. There's about a 10% chance that the preacher is gay and there's about a 10% chance that the politician who passes anti-gay laws is gay. There's no way around it.

485 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:29pm

re: #466 wolfie

You make an important point there. Has Jindal yet dealt with a hostile press in regard to his religious beliefs and how they might affect his job performance?
I'm curious to know how he would respond to some ambush questions.

486 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:29pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

Ok, now you've overstepped the line. I am going to give you the Evil Eye, as soon as I'm through poking the pins in my Gordon Marock voodoo doll and then I will send Oral Roberts Junior 100 dollars to pray for your soul. That'll teach ya.

The Rev. Hoopster has a better deal for you at 50 bucks..Plus I'll sent you an autographed China Plate..
/

487 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:51pm

re: #375 wolfie

There's too much emphasis on presidential politics. I'd like to see a bunch of people like Palin, Jindal, Giuliani, etc. run for the Senate on a fiscal sanity/reform/small govt platform and then try to shake things up when they get to Washington.
We need people in Congress who can articulate Reaganite values.

wolfie -

Good thought, let's see what things look like in late 2009/early 2010.

-S-

488 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:53pm

re: #473 razorbacker

We all complain about the rotten state of Congress, then go right on re-electing the very people responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

Americans hate everyone in Congress except for the incumbents they get to vote for.

489 AceR  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #422 ziggyelman

I live in Maryland, and Michael Steele's race against Ben Cardin was a loser from the git. Maryland is a very blue state, thanks to Baltimore, Montgomery and P.G. counties. That was where the race for Steele was lost, but not in the more rural areas of Maryland, where there was a lot of support for him.

Michael Steele was the Lt. Gov. of Maryland under Bob Erhlich and he did a good job for Maryland. It's not as good as being a Governor or Senator, but it is something.

490 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:20:03pm

re: #473 razorbacker

Franks, safe seat?
That is, umm, up in the air.

491 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:20:06pm

re: #459 OldLineTexan

I have used voodoo to animate my large GI Joe collection. Watch your ankles and calves, unbeliever and infidels. Fear the dull edges and slightly point tips of their plastic bayonets.

/

Psssht. I've got Big Jim, with his patented Karate Chop.

492 legalpad  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:20:18pm

re: #353 ziggyelman

But, why didn't McCain win then? He WAS mr. Moderate, Mr Independent....and lost by what, 6 % points?

Exactly. Democrat lite = lose. That's why the media selects these people for us. Of course, that doesn't mean that any conservative platform will win.

493 Gordon Marock  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:20:39pm

Due to a sudden sharp pain in my back, I am signing off. goodnight all.

494 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:20:47pm

re: #422 ziggyelman

He lost in a state that voted for Martin O'Malley as Governor. He was Lt. Governor under Ehrlich, and they did amazing things in their short tenure. Not that you could tell now.

495 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:20:55pm

re: #442 Walter L. Newton

And in Matthew Chapter 6 in the King James Version, repetitive prayer is a no-no.

496 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:19pm

re: #474 RickJ

You hold to the false dichotomy that evolution is atheistic. It's not.

497 JacksonTn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:19pm

It does not matter who republicans put up in 2012 ...if the matter of voter fraud is not addressed and democrats continue to pit hispanics and blacks against all republicans ...you might as well pack it in ...they continue to try to define the republicans as the party of the "evil white man" ...if ACORN and other "organizing" groups are not investigated the outcome will continue to be the same ... and it will get worse if illegals are given amnesty ...they will be the next big voting block and if that happens you can kiss your republican chances goodbye ...Do you think the democrats will not run a hispanic ... they would just to get all the hispanic vote just like they did with a black this time ...and they will ask all blacks to vote for the hispanic candidate ...to keep the "evil white republican" out of office ...

If this sounds prejudice ...I don't mean it that way ...it is just that I believe the thirst for republican blood by the democrats (especially these radical left party heads) is beyond scary ...and I believe they will go to any lengths to keep their party (my old party) in office ...at any cost ....

498 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:35pm

re: #483 Rancher

Exorcism, like prayer, can work if you believe

That's a very different thing from fostering a belief in demonic possession.

No thanks.

499 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:40pm

re: #482 Desert Dog

Secular humanists that all believed in god, no? The Enlightenment was not a rejection of religion either, it has just played out that way in the modern world.


Yes, there is a strong tradition of religious humanism and Enlightenment was not a rejection of religion. We are in agreement.

500 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:43pm

re: #491 Occasional Reader

Psssht. I've got Big Jim, with his patented Karate Chop.

8" squirt. I will just shove a couple pins in this Stretch Armstrong and

/BLAMMO

Uh, want some corn syrup?

501 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:51pm

re: #476 mich-again

I bet you cringe in disgust when you hear some superstitious fool tell an actor "Break a leg" for good luck.

And I bet you are grateful when you sneeze and someone say "God bless you." Of course, you know that no one has died from a sneeze, and that it's based on an old tradition, no more or less than the "break a leg" tradition. It's doesn't mean anything to me.

502 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:52pm

re: #479 ziggyelman
Good point. At the moment the right needs to get its house in order. Fiscal restraint, strong defense, personal resposibility. Get out and educate the electorate. Bush and McCain both get Fs for their education of the electorate of who they are, why we're doing this, etc...Abysmal performances.

503 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:21:54pm

re: #478 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Look at it in another way. IF Gov. Jindal can get Louisiana straightened out - I wouldn't care if he were a "Reform Druid" - bowing to bushes rather than trees! If he, like JFK, could separate his personal beliefs from affairs of state - he can compete for my vote. He may NOT get it - AND - that is fine. My beliefs may seem quaint to some - AND - they are my beliefs.
Must they be the beliefs of others? No! - AND - I wish they were the Aspirations of those folks - AND - I am not Ha-Shem, AND can therefore Not Judge. That is all.

-S-

Well said! I would have voted for Rudy in a new your second, in spite of him being pro choice....but, it sounds like a lot of people hear would rather see 8 years of Obama than Jindal or Palin, and that I just flat out don't get....

504 razorbacker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:22:12pm

re: #490 tradewind

Franks, safe seat?
That is, umm, up in the air.

I hear that's the way he likes it. No skin off my behind.

505 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:22:21pm

re: #473 razorbacker

It would be nice to have a conservative President of the United States, but the real problem is not the POTUS.

The problem is our elected represenatives and senators. And a cadre of lefty government employees.

Murtha? Re-elected.

Schumer? Safe seat.

Pelosi? Safe seat.

Franks? Safe seat.

Dodd? Safe seat.

McCain? Safe seat? We shall see.

Reid? Safe seat.

Kennedy? Only God has proven able to stop Teddy. Well, that and the fact that Oldsmobliles don't float.

MN came within a hair of electing a fourth rate comedian. He may still steal his seat.

Get elected to the Senate and you have a job for life. Almost the same for Represenatives.

What about our favorite Klansman? Safely re-elected even though he has to be led by his hand and instructed which way to vote.

We all complain about the rotten state of Congress, then go right on re-electing the very people responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

We never learn.

or - vote fraud.

506 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:22:47pm

re: #485 jaunte

Hey- this is just the set-up- we haven't even gotten to the wind-up yet. This pitch could be a doosey.

507 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:23:02pm

re: #479 ziggyelman

But recall how Obama was a guest speaker at the 2004 Dem convention...got a lot of press(big shock) who was the Republican like that this summer? Did Jindal even speak there?

Republican party is really weak right now. I'm hoping 2010 will give us some smart, fed up folks(Like many here-smart folks here, run dammit!) but, that is too late for 2012....someone HAS to be ready to start running in 2 years.

I like Palin a lot, and if she would be up against Hillary, I'd like her chances...against the Chosen one? No way in hell will she have a chance....

I forgot about Rudy, someone mentioned him above....but, he will be older, and further out of office....can he still run a serious campaign?

"zig" -

I have - in the old (innocent) days. Today, I am too old with too many clanking bones in my closet to take a potential pay cut.

-S-

508 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:23:03pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

IIRC that 10% figure is regarded as being, well, propaganda, and unrealistically high.

509 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:23:05pm

re: #473 razorbacker

It would be nice to have a conservative President of the United States, but the real problem is not the POTUS.

The problem is our elected represenatives and senators. And a cadre of lefty government employees.

Murtha? Re-elected.

Schumer? Safe seat.

Pelosi? Safe seat.

Franks? Safe seat.

Dodd? Safe seat.

McCain? Safe seat? We shall see.

Reid? Safe seat.

Kennedy? Only God has proven able to stop Teddy. Well, that and the fact that Oldsmobliles don't float.

MN came within a hair of electing a fourth rate comedian. He may still steal his seat.

Get elected to the Senate and you have a job for life. Almost the same for Represenatives.

What about our favorite Klansman? Safely re-elected even though he has to be led by his hand and instructed which way to vote.

We all complain about the rotten state of Congress, then go right on re-electing the very people responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

We never learn.

And, guess who decides the next congressional Apportionment in 2010? Would that be the Democrat controlled Legislature? UGH! I think the the lead guy in the House will be a guy named Gerry Mander.

510 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:23:21pm

re: #463 Killgore Trout

Yes.

I didn't know that. When was that?

511 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:23:33pm

re: #495 Steffan

And in Matthew Chapter 6 in the King James Version, repetitive prayer is a no-no.

I don't care. The Roman church does it. Memorized and by rote praying. You have a problem with the Catholic Church?

512 leslein  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:24:22pm

re: #179 Zimriel

Here's the context of Reagan's quote:

Place: Dallas, Texas
Date: August 22, 1980
Audience: 14,000 Protestant ministers
Question (paraphrased by Evans and Novak): What did he think of the theory of evolution?

Reagan's answer (direct quote):

"I have a great many questions about it. I think that recent discoveries down through the years have pointed up great flaws ... It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science and it is not yet believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was believed."

Source: Evans and Novak, The Reagan Revolution, page 213

Evans and Novak's summary of the MSM's reaction:

"The sixty-nine year old candidate was coming over like a buffoon from the past, insistent on fighting William Jennings Bryan's lost crusade." [Emphasis added]

Evans and Novak's opinion: "... a political masterstroke ... made clear he was one of them .. there was neither a militant opposition group nor a postelection demand for action." [Emphasis in original]

My vote: For Reagan in spite of his statement.

The situation in 2012 will be much different than in 1980, but I doubt if evolution will decide the election. It will be an up or down vote on Obama. But Reagan criticized evolution and proved to be no William Jennings Bryan. Jindal probably won't be a Ronald Reagan.

For those I dinged: I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

513 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:24:41pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

Hey- this is just the set-up- we haven't even gotten to the wind-up yet. This pitch could be a doosey.

And you know what the pitch is going to be. It is evident from some of the questions present on this thread tonight.

514 BignJames  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:24:56pm

re: #508 Occasional Reader


I've read 2-3% is a more realistic figure.

515 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:25:01pm

re: #481 Walter L. Newton
Snide doesn't equal "so what"?
There are as many opinions here as there are subscribers. However, you are condescending, rude, and, for lack of a better word, broadbrushing. Most of us here are respectful of each other's views, and, in listening to each other, we become educated. This is a wonderful place to learn, who wants to be ridiculed in trying to learn?

516 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:25:04pm
517 TheMatrix31  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:25:44pm

re: #390 Gordon Marock

The bottom line is that the social conservatives have nowhere to go, despite their threats to boycott certain candidates. We need to force a rational, principled candidate on them who focuses on fiscal and national security issues in order to save the GOP. Let them threaten their boycott.

They have nowhere to go, but they could also stay home. Republicans lost this time even though we had the "moderate" candidate, "independent" candidate. While there were other factors at play of course, the Republicans didn't come out enough to vote for their guy and Obama got his people out.

518 Talon  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:26:06pm

So that's it then?

Any candidate that believes in a creator is unfit to be POTUS?

Any candidate that believes in offering BOTH sides of an issue is to be cast aside?

"Scientists" say that man is causing global warming. SCIENCE!

Following that logic....

Any candidate that is open to debate the man made global warming THEORY is the same as a candidate that is open to debate evolution THEORY?

Teaching BOTH sides (Evolution/Intelligent design) = stuffing creationism down our throats?

Here's a better idea. How about the "origin of life" issue be left OUT of school curriculum until one side can PROVE they are RIGHT?

Evolution has NOT been proven as a FACT. It is a THEORY. A theory being pushed as fact because there is a "consensus". Sound familiar?

WRT the R party....the repubs decided that they needed to run to the middle this last election. Now I hear "experts" crying that they need to be even MORE middle. EXCELLENT! You get your ass handed to you when you run "sorta" middle (John McCain should switch parties IMO) so...you try to go even further to the middle? When do you walk past "middle" and end up left of center? Where does "middle" stop?

And just because I want to end this post on a positive note, Ann Coulter and I ARE going to invade your town and convert ALL of you to Christianity. Resistance is futile................or something.

Carry on.

519 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:26:13pm

re: #512 leslein

Nice to see your post..Did you read mine towards you?

520 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:26:19pm

Night folks.

521 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:26:31pm

re: #502 pingjockey

Good point. At the moment the right needs to get its house in order. Fiscal restraint, strong defense, personal resposibility. Get out and educate the electorate. Bush and McCain both get Fs for their education of the electorate of who they are, why we're doing this, etc...Abysmal performances.

Sounds like you get it, re: #507 Dr. Shalit

"zig" -

I have - in the old (innocent) days. Today, I am too old with too many clanking bones in my closet to take a potential pay cut.

-S-

Just run as a Dem then! Closets are not an issue for them! Run as the most liberal guy in the world, then do a 180 when in office! I have all sorts of good ideas! ;)

522 RickJ  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:26:48pm

re: #496 Sharmuta

You hold to the false dichotomy that evolution is atheistic. It's not.

interesting - well some feel that God created via evolution, but you are correct that I assume evolutionists to be atheists.

it's a lot easier for me if everybody just stays in their pigeon hole

523 The Shadow Do  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:27:00pm

re: #405 AceR

You said a lot there and quite passionately, however when you get down to it you can select any random Dem vs any random Repub and your choice is really pretty easy. This issue, while there, will not be the dividing line you believe it to be in a general election. Other issues and personalities will determine future results.

524 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:27:36pm

re: #520 pingjockey

Night folks.

Night Ping! Tired of the football game?
Kind regards

525 3 wood  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:27:47pm

In market news, the futures are point up slightly tonight, and the Nikkei and Hang Seng are getting hammered, probably as a response to the the DOW plummeting today.

The TED spread (measure of risk to lend to banks) is at 2.18 (normal range .50 to 1.00)

The VIX (volatility index) is at 68.51 (normal range is at 10 to 20).

Look for continued volatility in the market for at least another 6 weeks or so until Obama takes office. Then the MSM will be talking about how the market is turning around already.

I saw over the weekend where George Stefanopolous gave credit for last weeks market rise to Obama. But you watch, the drop today is due to Bush.

526 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:27:55pm

re: #518 Talon

By your logic - is it OK to teach BOTH sides of sexuality (homo / hetro)?

527 ziggyelman  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:28:09pm

re: #502 pingjockey

Good point. At the moment the right needs to get its house in order. Fiscal restraint, strong defense, personal resposibility. Get out and educate the electorate. Bush and McCain both get Fs for their education of the electorate of who they are, why we're doing this, etc...Abysmal performances.

Sounds good to me. Just need to find the folks to do it....

528 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:28:14pm

re: #473 razorbacker

That's because "we" hate Congress, but love "our" Congressman. We like the guy who brings home the bacon, even as we decry porkbarrel spending for everyone else. It's not our guy who stinks, but the system and everyone else involved.

It's a problem as old as Congress (and parliamentary systems in general).

Of course, the we and our is generic but when you look at the fact that most politicians are elected to Congress time and time again in noncompetitive races and that perhaps 10% of seats are considered up for grabs at any one election, it's a sign that the majority in those districts like their guy, but love to hate Congress nonetheless.

529 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:28:22pm

re: #325 Thanos

It's always struck me as oddly humorous and depressing that the left is more forgiving of their moral sinners than the Christian right. Of course they look the other way for their crooks too...

Newt first married his teacher, who was more than a decade older than him. Then he divorced her in order to marry a student of his, who was more than a decade younger than him. He delivered the divorce papers to his wife in the hospital where she was undergoing treatment for breast cancer.

Some things I simply can't forgive.

530 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:28:30pm

re: #522 RickJ

Sticking me in a pigeon hole is a bad idea.

531 pingjockey  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:28:46pm

re: #524 HoosierHoops
Nah, not quite gone yet. Still haven't thawed out from being outside all day!

532 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:28:52pm

re: #459 OldLineTexan

I have used voodoo to animate my large GI Joe collection. Watch your ankles and calves, unbeliever and infidels. Fear the dull edges and slightly point tips of their plastic bayonets.

/

There was a news item on the radio today. It seems there is a large market in France for voodoo dolls of French president Nickolas Sarkozy.

A recent court ruling awarded Mr. Sarkozy one Euro and required a warning on the dolls: "Sticking pins in this doll will injure the dignity of Mr. Sarkozy."

Ummm.... wasn't that the idea in the first place?

533 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:29:16pm

re: #427 buzzsawmonkey

Given the number of preachers who have been later found to have a boy on the side, I'd say "love the sinner but hate the sin" gets a pretty good play.

the CATHOLIC BOAT!

534 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:29:29pm

re: #508 Occasional Reader

I'm not sure what the real figures are. All the polls are tainted o politically charged topics but I find the 5-10% figures very reasonable.

535 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:29:40pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

Got a link for the 10%? I've always read 1-2%?

536 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:29:42pm

re: #530 Sharmuta

Wouldn't be prudent.

537 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:29:44pm

re: #525 3 wood

You know 3wood..The market could drop to 1 tomorrow and it wouldn't surprise me.. The next day climbing to 12000 might freak me out..
:)

538 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:08pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey

Allow me to remind you that the Bible--I am speaking of the Jewish Bible, usually called the "Old Testament"--nowhere condemns anything called "homosexuality." It condemns homosexual acts. Big difference; the former is a status, the latter is behavior. The Bible also condemns all heterosexual sex outside of marriage, though it records instances of people who have transgressed these prohibitions.

Some religious people have allowed themselves to become obsessed about homosexual behavior, even though homosexual acts are pretty small potatoes as far as Biblical condemnations go. On the other hand, a hell of a lot of non-religious people have also allowed themselves to become obsessed with homosexual behavior, making the unquestioning acceptance of it a litmus test which--to mix a metaphor--they want to cram down the throat of any religious person they come across.

Both positions are pretty silly.

Unless you happened to live in Sodom and Gomorrah....the Folsom Streets of the Bible, eh? What did the Gomorrahites do that was so bad, anyway? I think we can all figure out what made Sodom such a nice place.

539 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:11pm

re: #536 jaunte

Wouldn't be prudent.

Not at this juncture.

540 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:23pm

re: #533 Jimmah

Lol!

541 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:30pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey

It condemns homosexual acts.

You mean like "Anita Martini And Her Tribute to Judy Garland" at the TS Lounge?

542 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:33pm

re: #517 TheMatrix31

Out, and back from, and multiplied. The Dem fraud factor in my county is a given. There are so many dead voters that it's amazing they don't have a lobbyist in DC.

543 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:54pm

re: #501 Walter L. Newton

It's doesn't mean anything to me.

I'll bet you have silently stood by while someone around you dropped that line. C'mon. "Break a leg" is practically a prayer to actors. Or the energy circle, or the gypsy robe. All silly superstitions/traditions.

544 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:54pm

re: #515 RubyTuesday

Snide doesn't equal "so what"?
There are as many opinions here as there are subscribers. However, you are condescending, rude, and, for lack of a better word, broadbrushing. Most of us here are respectful of each other's views, and, in listening to each other, we become educated. This is a wonderful place to learn, who wants to be ridiculed in trying to learn?

You are confusing ridiculed with my lack of belief of your god or religious views. You call it ridicule because I refuse to back down and try to paint a pretty picture of religion in general.

No, sorry. I don't believe in anything supernatural. And I have no problem with anyone who does have a belief.

But you do, that's why you call it ridicule, instead of just accepting my position.

545 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:30:55pm

OK, this guy is just nuts!

No parachute!

546 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:31:58pm

re: #338 TheMatrix31

And the GOP can't win without appealing to the other end of their base, either. Not going one way or another with my opinion, I don't know yet. Just stating that you have to look out for your people first, then worry about moderates and independents.

1.8 million more socons voted for McCain in 08 than voted for Bush in 04. But 6.4 million LESS moderates voted for McCain in 08 than for Bush in 04. That's an electoral kiss of death, any way you slice it.

547 tradewind  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:32:03pm

re: #534 Killgore Trout

Way high. Unless you're going by geographic location, of course. You could get to the 50% point easily in a few coastal cities.

548 ornery elephant  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:32:25pm

re: #529 Salamantis

Newt first married his teacher, who was more than a decade older than him. Then he divorced her in order to marry a student of his, who was more than a decade younger than him. He delivered the divorce papers to his wife in the hospital where she was undergoing treatment for breast cancer.

Some things I simply can't forgive.

Sal, you outta cross-post this comment and the one earlier where you rip Reagan, over at Daily Kos - You might just set a record for updings in one day over there.

549 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:32:44pm
550 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:32:55pm

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

How very mature of you. I expected better of you, somehow. Your posts have been fun and enlightening, even when I disagreed with you. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on all topics. In fact, I've disagreed with you on many things - but I've never resorted to being mean to you. It's unfortunate you find it not only OK, but humorous to be this way to me.

551 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:33:04pm

re: #431 Drained Brain

Read what you've written. Substitute a word here and there and it would fit the rant of any religious zealot, which is of course my point.

No, while zealotry can be a feature of both religious proselytizing and scientific argument, there is a difference between religion and science. Religion is faith in that which cannot be proven. Science is understanding that results from empirical observation. Calling someone who understands evolution a "Darwinist zealot" is like calling someone who understands that atoms exist a "Bohrist zealot," or someone who knows that things fall because of gravity a "Newtonian zealot." And no matter what you call these people, things fall, atoms exist, and organisms evolve.

Bohr didn't know why atoms are built the way they are. Newton didn't know why gravity exists. Similarly, one can ascribe the evolution of life to an act of divine creation, if one so chooses. Indeed, to me the fact that the staggering beauty and complexity of all the world's life forms is driven by one simple governing principle embodies a mind-boggling elegance that suggests the work of a Divine Being. But I cannot prove that statement, so it lives in the realm of religion.

552 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:33:27pm

re: #530 Sharmuta

Sticking me in a pigeon hole is a bad idea.

"Nobody puts Baby in a pigeonhole!"

/Patrick Swayze voice

553 razorbacker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:33:33pm

Gone to bed.

Tomorrow will be another day. Maybe better, maybe worse, but probably just the same old same old.

We've had the greatest nation ever devised in the history of the world handed to us on a silver platter.

Are we using it to best advantage? Are we trying to make it better?

Are those truths really still self evident?

Franklin was right. They gave us a represenative republic, if we can keep it.

554 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:33:54pm

re: #535 Thanos

No, I was just guessing.
Here's Gallup: What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?

While most expert estimates place America's homosexual population at 10% or less, Americans tend to guess that the number is higher, around 20%.

My point remains that a certain amount of the population is gay. The numbers are probably more or less the same in Saudi Arabia as Louisiana.

555 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:34:17pm

re: #511 Walter L. Newton

I don't care. The Roman church does it. Memorized and by rote praying. You have a problem with the Catholic Church?

It's not the only Chritian faith.

556 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:34:25pm

re: #549 buzzsawmonkey

I do not have time to correct you in detail--I was going to sign off ages ago--but the Cities of the Plain were destroyed for their inhospitability to strangers, not because of homosexual behavior. The famous "bring them out that we may know them" is in the nature of a prison rape, i.e., dominance assertion, not "homosexuality."

Sorry.

Not as sorry as the Sodomites, they should have been more friendly, not that there's anything wrong with that.

557 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:34:47pm

re: #525 3 wood

In market news, the futures are point up slightly tonight, and the Nikkei and Hang Seng are getting hammered, probably as a response to the the DOW plummeting today.

The TED spread (measure of risk to lend to banks) is at 2.18 (normal range .50 to 1.00)

The VIX (volatility index) is at 68.51 (normal range is at 10 to 20).

Look for continued volatility in the market for at least another 6 weeks or so until Obama takes office. Then the MSM will be talking about how the market is turning around already.

I saw over the weekend where George Stefanopolous gave credit for last weeks market rise to Obama. But you watch, the drop today is due to Bush.

Interesting info.
The media won't report that right after Obama won the election, the market tanked. We don't need the media to tell us why.

558 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:34:59pm

re: #552 Occasional Reader

You got it, Big Guy.

559 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:35:06pm

re: #543 mich-again

I'll bet you have silently stood by while someone around you dropped that line. C'mon. "Break a leg" is practically a prayer to actors. Or the energy circle, or the gypsy robe. All silly superstitions/traditions.

Well of course I've silently stood by when someone drops that line. But if someone asked me "do you believe that saying that helps" or something to that matter, I would tell them just what I think.

This was an open discussion on Jindal and some of his beliefs, social conservatism versus fiscal conservatism and so on, so in this case, here tonight, I stated my views on religion in general, and some practices in particular.

That's all.

560 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:35:43pm

re: #529 Salamantis

Newt first married his teacher, who was more than a decade older than him. Then he divorced her in order to marry a student of his, who was more than a decade younger than him. He delivered the divorce papers to his wife in the hospital where she was undergoing treatment for breast cancer.

Some things I simply can't forgive.

One of the crudest, most bullying thing I've seen in my life.

561 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:36:03pm

re: #475 Occasional Reader
The war on drugs is a failure and a huge waste of resources IMHO. Manage it as a problem but prohibition doesn't work, has destroyed countries like Mexico, and is funding gangs and other criminal organizations to our society's detriment. He has a libertarian approach to the war on drugs but I will admit it doesn't play well with most Americans. That said I was just throwing his name out there, not endorsing him, LOL. He as a matter of fact endorsed Ron Paul! :(
However he wasn't the only conservative to be against the war in Iraq early on, and many more like O'reilly came out against it later when the going got tough. What I loved about our former Governor was this:

Under Johnson's administration, New Mexico experienced the longest period without a tax-increase in the state’s entire history (8 years).

He cut the rate of government growth in half, left the New Mexico state government with a budget surplus and 1000 fewer employees (without firing anyone),

562 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:36:42pm

re: #560 MandyManners

One of the crudest, most bullying thing I've seen in my life.

My sentiments too.

563 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:36:46pm

re: #358 RubyTuesday

The Dems win because they tell people what they want to hear - the realization that they're liars comes too late. If the Lizard Nation is representative of Republicans in general, we're in big trouble. Finding a common platform that pleases everyone will be impossible, always has been. Accepting voters from many interests will go much further than exclusion. Most folks' personal beliefs don't even need to be discussed; it's the big issues that warrant our attention.

When some folks wanna dictate that their personal religious beliefs are taught as fact in public high school science class, it becomes a big issue - for me, and for a lot of other people.

564 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:37:09pm

re: #314 ArmyWife

If we get anymore "liberal" socially, we might as well change our party to Democrat. My core concerns are government fiscal responsibility, reduced spending and taxation, maintaining our military strength to endure the obvious future wars, less governmental management of our democracy, and enforcement of the laws we currently have on the books regarding immigration.

565 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:37:59pm

re: #511 Walter L. Newton

I don't care. The Roman church does it. Memorized and by rote praying. You have a problem with the Catholic Church?

Nope. My aunt was Catholic.... not that she was all that religious until she found out she had terminal cancer. She found her religion very fervently after hearing the diagnosis.

I don't happen to be Catholic, but I will not begrudge them their beliefs. Catholic funerals (I've been to more than one) can be very moving.

566 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:38:18pm

re: #529 Salamantis

... in order to marry a student of his, who was more than a decade younger than him

[cough] yes, ah, I utterly deplore that. [cough]

567 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #564 notutopia

If we get anymore "liberal" socially, we might as well change our party to Democrat. My core concerns are government fiscal responsibility, reduced spending and taxation, maintaining our military strength to endure the obvious future wars, less governmental management of our democracy, and enforcement of the laws we currently have on the books regarding immigration.

That is the message we have to hammer home. Not abortion or evolution or stem cells.......

568 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:38:26pm

re: #555 MandyManners

It's not the only Chritian faith.

Mandy, I know that. I was addressing the other comment, not bring up a new issue. Many sects use rote prayers, and I have no problems with what. I have no problem or personal dislike of any religion (including Islam).

I have a differing opinion when those beliefs start to invade my space, my beliefs and my non beliefs.

569 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:38:31pm

re: #544 Walter L. Newton
Not just Christian beliefs. No matter what the topic, you look down your nose at those who don't meet your standards, as if that makes you somehow better. It's a general attitude of pomposity in all your posts.
If you don't believe in the God that I do, fine. But the belittlement of those with whom you don't agree is very unattractive.

570 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:38:35pm

re: #347 mich-again

I never once got the impression from listening to John McCain speak that he really wanted the job.

Me too. Indeed I think it would be fair to say he refused to campaign for the job.

571 AceR  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:38:48pm

re: #461 Jamie

Thank you for your comments. I won't try to sway you to my side, you have obviously made up your mind. But I would like to tell you that I had an abortion in 1974 and it is a horrific practice that is dumbed down by liberals in general and Planned Parenthood specifically.

I had a choice back then. The choice was to have unprotected sex. The baby I carried at that time didn't get a choice. He had to live with the really bad choice that I made so that I wouldn't be inconvienced in my career. I can't undo what I did back then, but I can surely use my voice today to speak for those who cannot speak.

572 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:39:34pm

re: #538 Desert Dog

Unless you happened to live in Sodom and Gomorrah....the Folsom Streets of the Bible, eh? What did the Gomorrahites do that was so bad, anyway? I think we can all figure out what made Sodom such a nice place.

I read that in the bible recently. Absolutely bizarre - if I remember right, it seems that two angels stayed overnight, and the entire town - every man woman and child - for that was God's justification for destroying the whole place - gathered outside and demanded to have sex with them. Seems just a tad far fetched!

573 ArmyWife  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:40:40pm

Night all. Enjoy the rest of your discussion.

574 NYCHardhat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:40:55pm

re: #529 Salamantis

Newt first married his teacher, who was more than a decade older than him. Then he divorced her in order to marry a student of his, who was more than a decade younger than him. He delivered the divorce papers to his wife in the hospital where she was undergoing treatment for breast cancer.

Some things I simply can't forgive.

Jesus. Its like he had ties to domestic terrorists, racists, and otherwise undesirables.

575 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:41:22pm

re: #562 Hobbes

My sentiments too.

I hope she took him to the cleaners.

576 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:41:33pm

re: #574 NYCHardhat

He was not a community organizer

577 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:42:09pm

re: #521 ziggyelman

"zig"-

Back in "the day" I ran as a "Progressive" - a/k/a - a Liberal that wanted to get elected. My major plank was expansion of the NJ Mortgage Authority to let every creditworthy family have a chance to buy a house. My platform was enacted under the "Republican" Administration of Christine Whitman, for which I will ever be grateful.

-S-

578 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:42:14pm

re: #532 Steffan

A recent court ruling...required a warning on the dolls: "Sticking pins in this doll will injure the dignity of Mr. Sarkozy."

Seriously? I hadn't heard the part requiring the warning.

If that's true, then I doff my hat to the judge for his or her sheer, unmitigated snarkiness. That's about as snarky as it gets, judgewise.

579 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:42:24pm

re: #572 Jimmah

two angels stayed overnight, and the entire town - every man woman and child... gathered outside and demanded to have sex with them. Seems just a tad far fetched!

Depends on the angels.

580 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:42:29pm

re: #573 ArmyWife

Night all. Enjoy the rest of your discussion.

Night..Thank your Husband for me...
Your Family is about American hero's

581 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:42:40pm

re: #460 Killgore Trout

The problem is that it violates the constitution of the united states. States can not discriminate against blacks, jews, or gays.


I think if the states choose to say that marriage is between a man and a woman, that is their right, not the feds. If gays want a similar deal, let them pick a different word and get the same thing. If however, a state does not choose to go that route, then that is kewl too. In ANY case, it is not a federal issue.

582 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:43:36pm

re: #554 Killgore Trout

No, I was just guessing.
Here's Gallup: What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?My point remains that a certain amount of the population is gay. The numbers are probably more or less the same in Saudi Arabia as Louisiana.

I'm not talking about the studies of "have you ever had a gay encounter", since a lot of heteros do experiment. I'm talking about people who are gay through and through for life. The studies are hard to determine here, but in European studies in countries where there is little to zero stigma the avowedly homosexual population comes in at the 1 to 4 percent range.

583 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:44:52pm

re: #369 ornery elephant

W


If you mean the GOP has to appeal to them by choosing pro-abortion, anti-religious stances, embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage rights and immigration amnesty....then I guess I don't want to win that bad in 2012.

Pro-abortion applies to countries like China, which mandate it; pro-choice up until fetal viability is the sensible center stand, and the one that the majority of voters support. It is not an anti-religious stance to demand that religious dogmas not be taught in public high school science classes; it's pro-1st Amendment. Is it any more ethical to simply discard the embryos without using their stem cells to save other peoples' lives? Gay civil unions are a sensible center position; give equal treatment on spousal medical decisions, spousal inheritance rights, spousal employee benefits, and tax breaks, without relinquising the word. And on illegal immigration, the principled stand - to build the fence and deport illegals - was taken by candidates on neither side. Someone should try it.

584 RubyTuesday  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:45:04pm

re: #563 Salamantis
I wish I could give credit to the proper person who said above that it would only take half a day to explain the creation as part of origin, along with other theories, not proseletyzing. Mandating any religious stance puts us in the same class as the England that caused us to flee for a new land. Leave it up to the states, or to the school district to decide. I want to see fiscal conservatism, respect for life, and small government get our attention.

585 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:45:30pm

First Man in Space - Skydiving From The Edge Of The World

Captain Joe Kittenger.

Dude has balls.

586 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:45:47pm

re: #581 Wishing

I think if the states choose to say that marriage is between a man and a woman, that is their right, not the feds.


How about if the states choose that marriage is only for Christians? Or whites? It's not going to hold up with the supremes.

587 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:45:50pm

re: #572 Jimmah

Lot, respecting the practice of sheltering and protecting one's guests, offered up his virgin daughters instead. The crowd was having none of it. (Maybe because they weren't all that virginal?)

588 RickJ  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:46:24pm

re: #570 Last Mohican

Me too. Indeed I think it would be fair to say he refused to campaign for the job.

every US Presidential election I end up wondering - how can it be that these are the 2 best choices for this job - How is it possible in a nation of 300 million that the 2 final choices are so apparently flawed and average and boring and without much of a plan?

589 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:47:08pm

re: #582 Thanos

The numbers aren't really that important to me and I don't think it affects my point. Jews are only 1-2 percent of the population but that shouldn't affect their civil rights.

590 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:47:21pm

re: #495 Steffan

And in Matthew Chapter 6 in the King James Version, repetitive prayer is a no-no.

But in Luke 18: 1-8, the same Bible says pretty much the opposite thing.

591 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:47:34pm

re: #518 Talon

So that's it then?

Any candidate that believes in a creator is unfit to be POTUS?

Any candidate that believes in offering BOTH sides of an issue is to be cast aside?

"Scientists" say that man is causing global warming. SCIENCE!

Following that logic....

Any candidate that is open to debate the man made global warming THEORY is the same as a candidate that is open to debate evolution THEORY?

Teaching BOTH sides (Evolution/Intelligent design) = stuffing creationism down our throats?

Here's a better idea. How about the "origin of life" issue be left OUT of school curriculum until one side can PROVE they are RIGHT?

Evolution has NOT been proven as a FACT. It is a THEORY. A theory being pushed as fact because there is a "consensus". Sound familiar?

WRT the R party....the repubs decided that they needed to run to the middle this last election. Now I hear "experts" crying that they need to be even MORE middle. EXCELLENT! You get your ass handed to you when you run "sorta" middle (John McCain should switch parties IMO) so...you try to go even further to the middle? When do you walk past "middle" and end up left of center? Where does "middle" stop?

And just because I want to end this post on a positive note, Ann Coulter and I ARE going to invade your town and convert ALL of you to Christianity. Resistance is futile................or something.

Carry on.

No.

The problem is teaching creationism in public schools.

That question was publicly aired in 1925, and creationism, eventually, lost.

Google "Scopes Monkey Trial."

Creationism is religion. Evolution, OTOH, has a growing base of knowledge.

It is not the place of public schools to teach religion -- that has been found to violate the First Amendment. Creationism is religion.

If parents want to teach this at home, or if they want to teach it in a religious setting (vacation Bible school, religious school, Sunday school, whatever), it's up to them. It is not for a publicly-funded school to teach religious beliefs.

592 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:47:45pm

re: #575 MandyManners

I hope she took him to the cleaners.

I don't know the follow up on his first wife. Is she ok now?

593 leslein  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:47:57pm

re: #519 HoosierHoops

Not until after I posted 512. It took me awhile to find the book with the exact quote.

I really wasn't expecting much hostility to down dings. When I'm not planning to spend a lot of time on a thread (ha!) I use the voting button to express my opinion. I'll be more careful. I don't do anything just to antagonize people (well ,hardly ever). My concern is that conservatives of all stripes have to be careful about attacking each other. There's a lot of nonsense on the left that more harmful (and more likely to get passed). Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Some more background on Reagan's speech. According to Evans and Novak, religious conservatives put Carter into office in 1976 and were a swing group in 1980. They were suspicious of Reagan because he signed legislation in California that had an unintended consequence of making abortion much more available. He was also suspected of being secretly sympathetic to homosexuals. That was one of the motivations for his Dallas speech.

594 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:48:19pm

re: #588 RickJ

Because in the end they are chosen by a committee, a very large committee.

595 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:49:12pm

re: #592 Hobbes

I don't know the follow up on his first wife. Is she ok now?

I have no idea.

596 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:49:12pm

re: #375 wolfie

Gee Wolfie, what a novel idea...you mean they'll actually work for us on the platform that got them elected into the offices of the senate to begin with?
Novel... but I like it!
heh
/

597 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:49:25pm

re: #594 Rancher

Because in the end they are chosen by a committee, a very large committee.

That committee is now under an msm propaganda attack.

598 Thanos  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:50:22pm

re: #589 Killgore Trout

The numbers aren't really that important to me and I don't think it affects my point. Jews are only 1-2 percent of the population but that shouldn't affect their civil rights.

I'm not disagreeing, it's just that when I've been making arguments pro gay marriage I've been using the 1-3 percent of any population figure, want to make sure I"m staying factual when I speak.

599 avanti  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:50:30pm

Any chance we could get a fiscally conservative/socially liberal candidate ? I can't vote for the party that has to cater to the religious right and that faction scares the crap out of me. I don't begrudge their beliefs, just their need to try and force me to share them.
It started for me many years ago when they wanted my Playboy stored up high to protect the kiddies. That was reasonable, then they pushed it behind the counter where I had to ask for it, then got them tossed out of the store.
The same with TV, they want every show to be acceptable to a 8 year old. I would think a true conservative would want to stay out out of my bedroom and private life. If I chose as a adult to watch the Soprano's for example, I don't want the government to tell me it's too naughty.
I have to attend school meetings to keep the "God made little green apples " gang from screwing with my son's science class. If the party does not change direction, it will retain the over 50 vote and few others.
I guess I lean toward libertarian views, but that party has major issues too.

600 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:50:36pm

re: #571 AceR

Thank you for your comments. I won't try to sway you to my side, you have obviously made up your mind. But I would like to tell you that I had an abortion in 1974 and it is a horrific practice that is dumbed down by liberals in general and Planned Parenthood specifically.

I had a choice back then. The choice was to have unprotected sex. The baby I carried at that time didn't get a choice. He had to live with the really bad choice that I made so that I wouldn't be inconvienced in my career. I can't undo what I did back then, but I can surely use my voice today to speak for those who cannot speak.

Wish I could give you 100 updings.

601 TheMatrix31  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:50:53pm

re: #591 Steffan

No.

The problem is teaching creationism in public schools.

That question was publicly aired in 1925, and creationism, eventually, lost.

Google "Scopes Monkey Trial."

Creationism is religion. Evolution, OTOH, has a growing base of knowledge.

It is not the place of public schools to teach religion -- that has been found to violate the First Amendment. Creationism is religion.

If parents want to teach this at home, or if they want to teach it in a religious setting (vacation Bible school, religious school, Sunday school, whatever), it's up to them. It is not for a publicly-funded school to teach religious beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I have a crude understanding of all of this, but if it's been found to violate the First Amendment, then what exactly is there to be in an uproar about?

602 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:50:54pm

re: #595 MandyManners

I have no idea.

Let's hope she is and enjoying a wonderful life on his money!

603 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:51:06pm

re: #495 Steffan

Where in Matthew 6 does it say anything resembling your point? I can't find that anywhere at all. You are making shit up.

604 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:51:15pm

re: #525 3 wood

In market news, the futures are point up slightly tonight, and the Nikkei and Hang Seng are getting hammered, probably as a response to the the DOW plummeting today.

The TED spread (measure of risk to lend to banks) is at 2.18 (normal range .50 to 1.00)

The VIX (volatility index) is at 68.51 (normal range is at 10 to 20).

Look for continued volatility in the market for at least another 6 weeks or so until Obama takes office. Then the MSM will be talking about how the market is turning around already.

I saw over the weekend where George Stefanopolous gave credit for last weeks market rise to Obama. But you watch, the drop today is due to Bush.

I saw a story (don't recall where, sorry) that the Dow drop today was because of the Chinese market tanking.

Apparently the Chinese market is tanking big time, and the Dow and Nikkei are reacting to that. There's some speculation that the yuan will also depreciate.

These are not good times to be playing the markets.

605 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:51:18pm

OT

I will leave you all with an interesting page I "stumbled on":

Cost comparison of the Great Bailout of 2008

nite all

606 RickJ  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:51:22pm

re: #587 Rancher

Lot, respecting the practice of sheltering and protecting one's guests, offered up his virgin daughters instead. The crowd was having none of it. (Maybe because they weren't all that virginal?)

it could be that Lot said that in sarcasm because of their homosexuality. My guess is that he was trying to shock or simply condemn them by alluding indirectly to his view of their lifestyle. throwing it in their face if that were possible under the circumstance. just guessing

607 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:51:47pm

re: #587 Rancher

Lot, respecting the practice of sheltering and protecting one's guests, offered up his virgin daughters instead. The crowd was having none of it. (Maybe because they weren't all that virginal?)

That too. There's just so much....er.....sound moral teaching, I guess, in that story.

608 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:52:03pm

re: #599 avanti

That's funny, because I have had to attend school board meetings to lessen the religious fervor of the "Sally Has Two Mommies" crowd.

609 TheMatrix31  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:52:38pm

re: #601 TheMatrix31

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I have a crude understanding of all of this, but if it's been found to violate the First Amendment, then what exactly is there to be in an uproar about?

By this I mean if it violates the First Amendment then its obviously ruled as Unconstitutional which means it's impossible to be put into practice or law.

610 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:53:40pm

re: #593 leslein

Ok Ok..I don't agree with the thing about Carter being elected..
But I really appreciate you stepping up to the plate and explaining yourself.
You are good people..best regards

611 sngnsgt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:53:40pm

re: #477 NYCHardhat

The s**w already did mine.

612 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:53:51pm

re: #588 RickJ

It's not the lesser of two evils, but the evil of two lessers.

613 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:55:27pm

You want to read some really crazy nonsense, peruse through the Abiogenesis topic at Wikipedia.

614 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:55:40pm

re: #608 OldLineTexan

That's funny, because I have had to attend school board meetings to lessen the religious fervor of the "Sally Has Two Mommies" crowd.

Good grief!

615 legalpad  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:55:50pm

re: #585 Racer X

First Man in Space - Skydiving From The Edge Of The World

Captain Joe Kittenger.

Dude has balls.

Wow - This guy was living -

616 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:55:56pm

The "problem" with democracy and freedom is that freedom comes responsibilities. We don't teach that anymore. And we wonder why we're getting a Nanny State in it's place.

617 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:56:32pm

re: #433 Desert Dog

Ah yes, thank goodness for all the Voodoo the Founding Fathers brought with them from England! Yep, that Voodoo forged our cultural and social beliefs. I am very pleased that Voodoo ethics and morays are the norm here in the western world. I am not very religious, but I do give credit where credit is due, and our Judeo-Christian heritage is one of the main reasons the west came to dominate the globe. It was not Voodoo or Hindism or Wiccan that brought together the perfect union of personal responsibility and freewill that has made the western world thrive.

Don't give short shrift to the Greco-Roman values. And they were Pagans, too.

618 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:56:33pm

re: #601 TheMatrix31

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I have a crude understanding of all of this, but if it's been found to violate the First Amendment, then what exactly is there to be in an uproar about?

Google "Intelligent Design."

Charles has been pushing this point rather seriously in recent months. Rightly, IMNSHO.

Jindal signed it into law.

Intelligent Design = creationism.

619 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:56:38pm

re: #609 TheMatrix31

By this I mean if it violates the First Amendment then its obviously ruled as Unconstitutional which means it's impossible to be put into practice or law.

They keep trying to find ways to get around the law.

620 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:57:08pm

re: #603 mich-again

Where in Matthew 6 does it say anything resembling your point? I can't find that anywhere at all. You are making shit up.

He is not making this up...

"5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

This passage is in reference to ritual praying and "babbling" like pagans with many words. It was typical of the Romans and the Greeks to have repetitive chants given to the gods, even having proxies praying for them in the temples.

This passage also speaks against the overtly public displays of piety, which was a Roman concept, a public display of how "religious" you were.

621 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:57:42pm

re: #614 Hobbes

Good grief!

It could be worse...it could be "Appreciating Islamist Culture By Making Your Sister Wear a Burka and Walk Behind You Week" like I have seen reported here in the past. But that topic has never come up.

BTW, I am all for Sally and both her mommies at an appropriate age WITH parental buy-in. But not shoved down my throat by activists.

622 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:58:10pm

re: #616 Sharmuta

The "problem" with democracy and freedom is that freedom comes responsibilities. We don't teach that anymore. And we wonder why we're getting a Nanny State in it's place.

Yep. It seems people want to live like wild boars but still be able to feed at the trough. But you can't have it both ways.

623 hermit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:58:12pm

re: #616 Sharmuta

The "problem" with democracy and freedom is that freedom comes responsibilities. We don't teach that anymore. And we wonder why we're getting a Nanny State in it's place.

*ding*ding*ding* [+100 invisible Karma]

624 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:58:34pm

re: #606 RickJ
Interesting take, puts Lot in a better light. Later his daughters get him drunk so he will have sex with them. And it works. :(

625 JacksonTn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:58:46pm

re: #620 Walter L. Newton

He is not making this up...

"5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

This passage is in reference to ritual praying and "babbling" like pagans with many words. It was typical of the Romans and the Greeks to have repetitive chants given to the gods, even having proxies praying for them in the temples.

This passage also speaks against the overtly public displays of piety, which was a Roman concept, a public display of how "religious" you were.

Walter ...just wondering ...are you saying that praying the rosary is babbling?

626 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:59:24pm

re: #599 avanti

Any chance we could get a fiscally conservative/socially liberal candidate ? I can't vote for the party that has to cater to the religious right and that faction scares the crap out of me. I don't begrudge their beliefs, just their need to try and force me to share them.
It started for me many years ago when they wanted my Playboy stored up high to protect the kiddies. That was reasonable, then they pushed it behind the counter where I had to ask for it, then got them tossed out of the store.
The same with TV, they want every show to be acceptable to a 8 year old. I would think a true conservative would want to stay out out of my bedroom and private life. If I chose as a adult to watch the Soprano's for example, I don't want the government to tell me it's too naughty.
I have to attend school meetings to keep the "God made little green apples " gang from screwing with my son's science class. If the party does not change direction, it will retain the over 50 vote and few others.
I guess I lean toward libertarian views, but that party has major issues too.

I think you're thinking of Rudy Giuliani. We know what happened to him.

627 TheMatrix31  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:59:34pm

re: #619 Sharmuta

They keep trying to find ways to get around the law.

Hmm, interesting. I obviously don't keep up with the religious/evolution/etc debates on LGF. Too much to handle. Religion is a deeply personal thing for me.

628 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 7:59:47pm

re: #599 avanti

I think that the "religious right" takes WAY too much heat, and while in some regions it's very real and holds political sway, just blaming the "religious right" allows you to paint with too broad of a brush.
I'm not saying you in particular, but I think that a lot of people use the term to slander Christianity in general without having be held accountable to anyone in particular.
There are zealots in every philosophy.
I also consider myself to hold libertarian principles.

629 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:00:44pm

re: #596 notutopia

Hey, a girl can DREAM, can't she? :)

630 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:01:35pm

re: #620 Walter L. Newton

Funny that you left out the part in that Chapter in which Jesus introduced the Lord's prayer as an example of prayer.

631 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:01:36pm

re: #627 TheMatrix31

Hmm, interesting. I obviously don't keep up with the religious/evolution/etc debates on LGF. Too much to handle. Religion is a deeply personal thing for me.

It's deeply personal for most people, which is why some of us don't appreciate it being foisted on our kids via public school science classrooms.

632 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:02:17pm

re: #625 JacksonTn

Walter ...just wondering ...are you saying that praying the rosary is babbling?

Yes, but I was trying to make a point, which as typical of long threads, the original thought that started something is long gone.

If I remember correctly, I was comparing voodoo chanting to repetitive prayer (as in the Roman church, the rosary). When I mentioned that, I was comparing on supernatural practice to another one, and my claim was that it's no different.

Of course, to some, it is different because saying the rosary is a "christian" practice and voodoo chanting is "pagan" praying.

I think it's all bunk, so I don't see any difference.

633 goodin510  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:02:18pm

unfortunately, exorcism (& transubstantiation) are official doctrine of the Catholic church. I'd put these on par with Creationism.

There's a reason why only one Catholic has won the presidency and none since.

634 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:02:32pm

re: #621 OldLineTexan

It could be worse...it could be "Appreciating Islamist Culture By Making Your Sister Wear a Burka and Walk Behind You Week" like I have seen reported here in the past. But that topic has never come up.

BTW, I am all for Sally and both her mommies at an appropriate age WITH parental buy-in. But not shoved down my throat by activists.

I guess I'm just a dinosaur, but I'd rather have that discussion at home.

635 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:02:56pm

re: #628 Bumr50

"Naming" a group allows you to dismiss them without bothering to counter their arguments. Thus the "Religious Right" becomes marginalized and not fit for polite company. That is the strategy.

636 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:11pm

re: #634 Hobbes

I guess I'm just a dinosaur, but I'd rather have that discussion at home.

The South Park episode on teaching sex education at school perfectly sums up my attitude towards theat topic.

637 hermit  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:24pm

Hey Lizards - I'm down sick and have to go to bed. Fascinating read tonight.

Now, remember, nobody should go to bed angry...so use this if you need it

...otherwise, use this...

peace/shalom

638 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:25pm

re: #633 goodin510

The Catholic Church does not teach creationism. The story in Genesis is not a substitute for scientific discovery.

639 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:38pm

I am a bitter clinger, but creationism is a belief and shouldn't be taught as science, period. It is not.

640 Racer X  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:40pm

Para sailer get grabbed by a Boeing (unbeleivable accident))

Note to self: do not para sail near an airport.

641 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:47pm

re: #635 rawmuse

Group politics? Aaargh.

642 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:53pm

Do you even know what the bill states? It's NOT making the teaching of ID absolute, What it does, and I quote,

an open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the
origins of life, global warming, and human cloning
.re: #618 Steffan

Some may say this lets the camels nose under the tent, but thats a different argument. In this thread, people are trying to decide weather or not Jindal is a strict IDer. Singage of that bill does not make him one, IMHO

643 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:04:55pm

re: #468 ArmyWife

I don't believe he was perfect - no one is perfect. I DO believe people learn and grow from their mistakes. At the age of 17-20ish, I was very conservative, but felt abortion was a woman's "right". I know better now. That said, I still don't believe in absolutes - but I am a Socon. I am not a overly religious, though. I believe Reagan's message, including his imperfections, is what our party needs. We've been running on the fumes of Reagan's message, those fumes have run out. Someone needs to relight the fire, baby!

You may believe differently, but you can not 'know better' for anyone else. That intensely personal decision is for each individual woman to make for herself.

644 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:05:27pm

re: #636 OldLineTexan

The South Park episode on teaching sex education at school perfectly sums up my attitude towards theat topic.

Don't watch South Park.

645 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:05:28pm

re: #616 Sharmuta

The "problem" with democracy and freedom is that freedom comes responsibilities. We don't teach that anymore. And we wonder why we're getting a Nanny State in it's place.

Well said.

646 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:05:39pm

re: #637 hermit

Hey Lizards - I'm down sick and have to go to bed. Fascinating read tonight.

Now, remember, nobody should go to bed angry...so use this if you need it

...otherwise, use this...

peace/shalom

Rofl! Great! Thanks for making me smile! Hope you feel better soon!

647 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:05:48pm

re: #629 wolfie

Yes WE can. Unfortunately, unfavorable ratings alone haven't earned us very much toward holding them to their accountability to us. Voting for them is not enough it appears. Throwing money at them gets better outcomes.

648 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:06:11pm

re: #630 mich-again

Funny that you left out the part in that Chapter in which Jesus introduced the Lord's prayer as an example of prayer.

Well, that's because the Lords Prayer is an EXAMPLE of how to pray, not an actual prayer itself. Although it has been co-opted by most Christian sects as an actual, word for word, verbatim chant.

But Matthew 6 is not in any way suggesting that you pray in some sort of repetitive chant.

Matthew 6:9 says ""This, then, is how you should pray:" It is a step by step outline of what is proper prayer matters to bring before God.

649 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:06:23pm

re: #603 mich-again

Where in Matthew 6 does it say anything resembling your point? I can't find that anywhere at all. You are making shit up.

Matthew 6:7:

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
I don't make shit up.

650 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:06:59pm

re: #644 Hobbes

Don't watch South Park.

Is that an order, or one of those (I) statements?

LOL.

651 maximoso  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:07:12pm

"re:390

The bottom line is that the social conservatives have nowhere to go, despite their threats to boycott certain candidates. We need to force a rational, principled candidate on them who focuses on fiscal and national security issues in order to save the GOP. Let them threaten their boycott."

That worked really well in 2006. Force voters to vote for somebody and expect them to support your guy. Last two times that was tried - we lost Congress and then the Presidency - when Republcans stayed home.

I don't vote social issues - I'm a fiscal / National Security / Capitalist / limited government onservative. But John McCain would not have gotten my vote if not for Sarah Palin on the ticket - and it had nothign to do with her position on Abortion. Do I want her to be my President in 2012 - possibly. I'll look at her in 4 years and make a choice. Meanwhile, I'll watch causally to see what she does to boast her resume and broaden her knowledge base on international issues.

I do however understand the alliance that social conservatism with the overall movement as in a party - and find it disturbing every time I see republicans trying to peel them off the party. Without social conservatives - there isn't a republican party unless you want them to be the " whigs "

652 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:07:14pm

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Enlightened Secular Humanists have declared a fiscal emergency.
Apparently, they are running out of OPM (other people's money).
When you are a Moral Relativist, there is no such thing as theft.

653 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:07:19pm

re: #633 goodin510

unfortunately, exorcism (& transubstantiation) are official doctrine of the Catholic church. I'd put these on par with Creationism.

There's a reason why only one Catholic has won the presidency and none since.

Yeah ,, too bad Nixon didn't bring out the EXORCISM card during his debate with Kennedy!

(feh!)

654 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:08:10pm

re: #644 Hobbes

Don't watch South Park.

I did until they started trashing Christ.

655 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:08:42pm

re: #633 goodin510

unfortunately, exorcism (& transubstantiation) are official doctrine of the Catholic church. I'd put these on par with Creationism.

There's a reason why only one Catholic has won the presidency and none since.

The Church accepts evolution.

656 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:09:30pm
657 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:09:33pm

re: #655 Sharmuta

The Church accepts evolution.

and VISA !

658 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:09:55pm

re: #630 mich-again

Funny that you left out the part in that Chapter in which Jesus introduced the Lord's prayer as an example of prayer.


You know, I would hope a Christian could explain this to you in a way that you would understand. It's funny that an atheist like me should be explaining very basic Christian doctrine to anyone.

659 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:09:56pm

re: #654 MandyManners

I did until they started trashing Christ.

They trash most things fairly evenly. Satan's gay, etc.

660 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:10:06pm

re: #474 RickJ

scientists? - I would hope they deal in what they know for the most part and don't venture too much into what they don't or can't know, but there are plenty of other opinion givers to be found. Often enough they make reaching assumptions beyond the limits of current knowledge.

Actually, it's scientists' JOBS to reach beyond the limits of current knowledge, and by means of investigation and experiment, to expand those limits outward.

Heres something else -

Evolution is a tough thing and I just see no upside to it. Essentially it means that there can be no hope for any individual beyond the current life. So when you stop breathing - thats it - you're done.

Human beings for the most part hate that whole idea. Thats why they hope for life extension developements and such ridiculous things as transferring their minds into futuristic computers at death.

Some even express "faith" that this will occur in current lifetimes. Crazy religion that one - but it does demonstrate to me that man is essentially a religious being.

Understanding how life evolved and speciated on this planet cannot be a bad thing. Understanding is always preferable to ignorance.

661 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:10:25pm

re: #650 OldLineTexan

Is that an order, or one of those (I) statements?

LOL.

Pretty funny! Yep, it's one of those (I) statements. I'm sure I'll get down dinged cause I don't watch...but, what can I say, I'm just not hip.

662 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:11:33pm

re: #659 OldLineTexan

They trash most things fairly evenly. Satan's gay, etc.

Ummmmmm...big difference when you trash Christ.

663 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:11:33pm

re: #651 maximoso

Since 1992 the GOP loses when it pisses off fiscal conservatives. I expect this trend to continue.

664 Rancher  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:11:35pm

Time to hit the hay. It's been an interesting nights discussion and I've enjoyed it. Thanks Lizards, next post will be Rustler's most likely.

665 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:11:43pm

re: #648 Walter L. Newton

Well, that's because the Lords Prayer is an EXAMPLE of how to pray, not an actual prayer itself.


Really? It says this...

"This, then, is how you should pray:..

I can't find the part where it said it was just an EXAMPLE.

666 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:12:09pm

re: #657 sattv4u2

Salvation:priceless.

667 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:12:17pm

re: #661 Hobbes

Pretty funny! Yep, it's one of those (I) statements. I'm sure I'll get down dinged cause I don't watch...but, what can I say, I'm just not hip.

I'm hip now?

/watch out for the Four Horsemen

668 J.D.  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:12:25pm

re: #656 FrogMarch

OT - CNN - what a worthless sack of shit for a news organization.

Now there's a news flash.
/

669 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:12:28pm

re: #478 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Look at it in another way. IF Gov. Jindal can get Louisiana straightened out - I wouldn't care if he were a "Reform Druid" - bowing to bushes rather than trees! If he, like JFK, could separate his personal beliefs from affairs of state - he can compete for my vote. He may NOT get it - AND - that is fine. My beliefs may seem quaint to some - AND - they are my beliefs.
Must they be the beliefs of others? No! - AND - I wish they were the Aspirations of those folks - AND - I am not Ha-Shem, AND can therefore Not Judge. That is all.

-S-

Bur he HASN'T separated his personal beliefs from affairs of state. That's his problem. He DID sign the Disco-Institute-authored stealth creationism-in-public-education bill into state law.

670 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:12:55pm

re: #668 J.D.

I am captain obvious. ;-)

671 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:13:09pm

re: #666 Bumr50

Salvation:priceless.

and ,,, 10% rewards program (you get your angel wings with no shipping charges!)

672 OldLineTexan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:13:29pm

re: #662 MandyManners

Ummmmmm...big difference when you trash Christ.

Well, do what people that get offended over Mohammed do...slap a fatwa on them. Frankly, and with all respect as a Christian, Christ is big enough to take it.

673 J.D.  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:13:39pm

When I was in New Orleans, even a couple of Democrat lawyers were complimenting Jindal.
I know nothing much about him...

674 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:14:12pm

re: #649 Steffan

So the Lord's Prayer uttered by Jesus himself is a heathen vain repetition? Really.

675 J.D.  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:14:37pm

re: #670 FrogMarch

I am captain obvious. ;-)

;D

676 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:14:49pm

I don't give a flying frak about 2012 right now, considering 2009 hasn't even happened yet. 2012 may as well be 2112, or 2111112. We here on the right don't know yet if we will need to feed discontent among average voters who got caught up in the glitz and glamor, and weren't really looking for someone this far to the left. Maybe the big strategery will be to subtly encourage voters upset Obama didn't go far enough to the left to go kamikaze third party. Maybe some issue will crop up that we aren't even thinking about right now, that could truly realign the electorate.

Politicians can redeem themselves or step on their own metaphorical (or literal) dorks in four years. I don't see what all the all-fired hurry is to crown the nominee for 2012.

677 JacksonTn  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:14:49pm

In all my years of saying the rosary, I have never considered it "babbling" and it gives me great comfort. I understand many do not believe the way I do but I would never judge someone by the way they do or do not pray to their G-d as long as they are not harming another. I can also say that as a Catholic I have always believed in evolution and was not asked not to while attending Catholic schools. Maybe it was just my parish but my parents always believed in evolution also ...I don't see the problem with believing in G-d and evolution at the same time.

678 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:14:54pm

re: #669 Salamantis

And this is why signing that bill calls Jindal's reputation for fiscal responsibility into question:

NCSE board member Barbara Forrest told the committee that even the amended version was too broadly written. “Anything could get into the classroom,” the AP reports her telling the committee.

That prospect worries the Baton Rouge Advocate’s editorial board, which wrote (May 21, 2008) that the bill will “provide a full-time living for dozens of lawyers in the American Civil Liberties Union. They will have a field day suing taxpayer-funded schools as groups use Nevers’ language to push Bible-based texts in the schools. That’s unconstitutional, and we can see the taxpayer paying — and paying, and paying — for this policy in the future.”

[Link: darwiniana.com...]

679 J.D.  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:15:01pm

Short night for me. Bye.

680 skywarner  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:15:27pm

OT breaking news from IBN in India....

"India demands Pakistan turn over Mumbai suspects or "face the consequences."

[Link: ibnlive.in.com...]

Ummm.... This could (make that will) get real ugly, real fast.

681 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #665 mich-again

I can't find the part where it said it was just an EXAMPLE.

Then I would ask that you look up some commentaries on that chapter in Matthew. (Chapter 9). There are scholars who will lay this out for you in much more detail than I can.

Much of what you read in scripture is not just dependent on the words you are reading. To fully understand the concepts, you need to know the social mores of the times, the cultural references being made, the anthropological insights and so on.

I was only trying to give you the basic concepts present in Matthew Chapter 9.

Unless you think that Steffan and I are just pulling this stuff out of our asses?

682 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:15:57pm

re: #658 Walter L. Newton

It's funny that an atheist like me should be explaining very basic Christian doctrine to anyone.


You haven't explained anything. You are just dodging a stupid statement you made earlier.

683 Bulldog1967  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:16:07pm

I don't see this as a big issue. There a re FAR more pressing matters we need to address. And Jindal is right on almost all of them, imo.

684 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:16:28pm

re: #669 Salamantis

Bur he HASN'T separated his personal beliefs from affairs of state. That's his problem. He DID sign the Disco-Institute-authored stealth creationism-in-public-education bill into state law.

Name me one politician in the last 200 years that can/ has done that seperate their beleifs from the way the govern! Psycologically I would think it to be impossible

685 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:17:27pm

re: #681 Walter L. Newton

There are scholars

Yeah. Scholars like you.

686 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:17:35pm

re: #683 Bulldog1967

I don't see this as a big issue. There a re FAR more pressing matters we need to address. And Jindal is right on almost all of them, imo.

Like "academic freedom"?

687 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:17:57pm

t's funny that an atheist like me should be explaining very basic Christian doctrine to anyone.re: #658 Walter L. Newton

Not unusual at all. Most atheists I have known have studied both theology and life sciences thoroughly.
It is usually the combination of those that is the catalyst for the driving questions of conflict that they cannot quell in a logical mind or in their needs for belief of a God like entity.
: )

688 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:18:27pm

re: #677 JacksonTn

I don't either.
I often think that there is a concensus among activist atheists that sometime, somewhere there will be a young scientists who, at the apex of the most profound discovery in human history, will remember that it's the Feast of All Saints, drop everything, and get hit by a bus on the way to mass.

689 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:18:27pm

re: #672 OldLineTexan

Well, do what people that get offended over Mohammed do...slap a fatwa on them. Frankly, and with all respect as a Christian, Christ is big enough to take it.

Taking His name in vain? No. Can't go there.

690 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #682 mich-again

You haven't explained anything. You are just dodging a stupid statement you made earlier.

Look, see my re: #681 Walter L. Newton
and spend a little time on your own reading up on Matthew Chapter 9. This is old news for anyone who has actually studied the bible in any sort of way more than a weekly reading in some church.

I'm not trying to get out of anything I said. You take it from here.

691 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:19:13pm

re: #680 skywarner

OT breaking news from IBN in India....

"India demands Pakistan turn over Mumbai suspects or "face the consequences."

[Link: ibnlive.in.com...]

Ummm.... This could (make that will) get real ugly, real fast.

I am sure the terrorist they caught coughed up a bunch of names, so India is following through. This might get very dicey.

692 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:19:15pm

re: #683 Bulldog1967

I don't see this as a big issue. There a re FAR more pressing matters we need to address. And Jindal is right on almost all of them, imo.

Where's your blog?

693 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:19:18pm

re: #642 sattv4u2

IIRC, the bill passed with huge majorities in both houses.
It would have been politically foolish to veto it.

The bill has no statewide mandates. It just allows local districts to teach contrarian views on the subjects you listed.

The ACLU et al. in any case will be watching this like a hawk and ,if anything like ID/Creationism is inserted into the curriculum, they'll sue.
And that will end up costing the local district a pretty penny in what is bound to be a losing cause.
Lessons will be learned...........at the taxpayers' expense, as usual.

694 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:20:22pm

It's irresponsible for a Governor to invite his taxpayers at the school district level to engage in costly legal First Amendment fights that they are almost guaranteed to lose.

695 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:20:25pm

re: #685 mich-again

Yeah. Scholars like you.

1 [1-18] The sermon continues with a warning against doing good in order to be seen and gives three examples, almsgiving (Matthew 6:2-4), prayer (Matthew 6:5-15), and fasting (Matthew 6:16-18). In each, the conduct of the hypocrites (Matthew 6:2) is contrasted with that demanded of the disciples. The sayings about reward found here and elsewhere (Matthew 5:12, 46; 10:41-42) show that this is a genuine element of Christian moral exhortation. Possibly to underline the difference between the Christian idea of reward and that of the hypocrites, the evangelist uses two different Greek verbs to express the rewarding of the disciples and that of the hypocrites; in the latter case it is the verb apecho, a commercial term for giving a receipt for what has been paid in full (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16).

2 [2] The hypocrites: the scribes and Pharisees, see Matthew 23:13, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29. The designation reflects an attitude resulting not only from the controversies at the time of Jesus' ministry but from the opposition between Pharisaic Judaism and the church of Matthew. They have received their reward: they desire praise and have received what they were looking for.

3 [7-15] Matthew inserts into his basic traditional material an expansion of the material on prayer that includes the model prayer, the "Our Father." That prayer is found in Luke 11:2-4 in a different context and in a different form.

4 [7] The example of what Christian prayer should be like contrasts it now not with the prayer of the hypocrites but with that of the pagans. Their babbling probably means their reciting a long list of divine names, hoping that one of them will force a response from the deity.

5 [9-13] Matthew's form of the "Our Father" follows the liturgical tradition of his church. Luke's less developed form also represents the liturgical tradition known to him, but it is probably closer than Matthew's to the original words of Jesus.

6 [9] Our Father in heaven: this invocation is found in many rabbinic prayers of the post-New Testament period. Hallowed be your name: though the "hallowing" of the divine name could be understood as reverence done to God by human praise and by obedience to his will, this is more probably a petition that God hallow his own name, i.e., that he manifest his glory by an act of power (cf Ezekiel 36:23), in this case, by the establishment of his kingdom in its fullness.

7 [10] Your kingdom come: this petition sets the tone of the prayer, and inclines the balance toward divine rather than human action in the petitions that immediately precede and follow it. Your will be done, on earth as in heaven: a petition that the divine purpose to establish the kingdom, a purpose present now in heaven, be executed on earth.

8 [11] Give us today our daily bread: the rare Greek word epiousios, here daily, occurs in the New Testament only here and in Luke 11:3. A single occurrence of the word outside of these texts and of literature dependent on them has been claimed, but the claim is highly doubtful. The word may mean daily or "future" (other meanings have also been proposed). The latter would conform better to the eschatological tone of the whole prayer. So understood, the petition would be for a speedy coming of the kingdom (today), which is often portrayed in both the Old Testament and the New under the image of a feast (Isaiah 25:6; Matthew 8:11; 22:1-10; Luke 13:29; 14:15-24).

The rest is here...

[Link: www.usccb.org...]

696 Bumr50  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:20:42pm

Goodnite all!

697 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:21:02pm

re: #694 jaunte

It's irresponsible for a Governor to invite his taxpayers at the school district level to engage in costly legal First Amendment fights that they are almost guaranteed to lose.

And can ill afford.

698 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:21:14pm

re: #654 MandyManners

I did until they started trashing Christ.

Guess I'm not missing much by not watching.

699 HelloDare  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:21:34pm

Jindal = Tanguska?

700 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:21:59pm

re: #677 JacksonTn

In all my years of saying the rosary, I have never considered it "babbling" and it gives me great comfort. I understand many do not believe the way I do but I would never judge someone by the way they do or do not pray to their G-d as long as they are not harming another. I can also say that as a Catholic I have always believed in evolution and was not asked not to while attending Catholic schools. Maybe it was just my parish but my parents always believed in evolution also ...I don't see the problem with believing in G-d and evolution at the same time.

There is no problem with believing in God and also believing in evolution at the same time.

The theory of evolution (and in fact, all of science, and math, and all the rest of it) came about because people were using their God-given gifts of intelligence and curiosity to look at the world around them and try to figure it out.

My Catholic upbringing has led me to the conclusion that a failure for us to fully use God's gifts to us, including the gift of intelligence, the ability to think logically, is a sin against Him. People of faith who deny that which our God-given gift of intelligence tells us is true are turning their backs on God.

701 freetoken  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:22:01pm

re: #683 Bulldog1967

I don't see this as a big issue. There a re FAR more pressing matters we need to address. And Jindal is right on almost all of them, imo.

You are stating of course that Jindal's support for ID (directly or indirectly) is irrelevant to his future.

However, as evidenced by Charles' devotion to this topic, which is just one example of the storm brewing in the sea of discontent amongst Republicans and GOP sympathizers, candidates who try to pursue to pure of a conservative-religious agenda will get blow-back from the more independent (and liberty minded) electorate.

You cannot ignore that fundamentally, at the heart of the matter, Jindal's acquiescence to the ID crowd means that he ignored constitutional principals for either religious or political motivation. In my book that makes him suspect as a leader.

702 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:22:42pm

re: #693 wolfie

You are correct. It states that
The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, upon
request
of a city, parish, or other local public school board, shall allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators

703 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:22:45pm

re: #694 jaunte

It's irresponsible for a Governor to invite his taxpayers at the school district level to engage in costly legal First Amendment fights that they are almost guaranteed to lose.

And, just wait until CAIR tries to get Islam's version taught. You know it's gonna' happen.

704 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:22:56pm

re: #685 mich-again

Yeah. Scholars like you.

Christ saw it needful to show his disciples what must commonly be the matter and method of their prayer. Not that we are tied up to the use of this only, or of this always; yet, without doubt, it is very good to use it. It has much in a little; and it is used acceptably no further than it is used with understanding, and without being needlessly repeated. The petitions are six; the first three relate more expressly to God and his honour, the last three to our own concerns, both temporal and spiritual. This prayer teaches us to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and that all other things shall be added. After the things of God's glory, kingdom, and will, we pray for the needful supports and comforts of this present life. Every word here has a lesson in it. We ask for bread; that teaches us sobriety and temperance: and we ask only for bread; not for what we do not need. We ask for our bread; that teaches us honesty and industry: we do not ask for the bread of others, nor the bread of deceit, Proverbs 20:17; nor the bread of idleness, Proverbs 31:27, but the bread honestly gotten. We ask for our daily bread; which teaches us constantly to depend upon Divine Providence. We beg of God to give it us; not sell it us, nor lend it us, but give it. The greatest of men must be beholden to the mercy of God for their daily bread. We pray, Give it to us. This teaches us a compassion for the poor. Also that we ought to pray with our families. We pray that God would give it us this day; which teaches us to renew the desires of our souls toward God, as the wants of our bodies are renewed. As the day comes we must pray to our heavenly Father, and reckon we could as well go a day without food, as without prayer. We are taught to hate and dread sin while we hope for mercy, to distrust ourselves, to rely on the providence and grace of God to keep us from it, to be prepared to resist the tempter, and not to become tempters of others. Here is a promise, If you forgive, your heavenly Father will also forgive. We must forgive, as we hope to be forgiven. Those who desire to find mercy with God, must show mercy to their brethren. Christ came into the world as the great Peace-maker, not only to reconcile us to God, but one to another.

See...

[Link: www.christnotes.org...]

705 maximoso  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:22:57pm

"1.8 million more socons voted for McCain in 08 than voted for Bush in 04. But 6.4 million LESS moderates voted for McCain in 08 than for Bush in 04. That's an electoral kiss of death, any way you slice it."

I dare you to restate what McCain's policies are. He had no platform - it was incoherent. McCain's policy may have been ok as he governed - but Obama was seen as a Tax cutter and McCain was jumping all over the place with his message. Until he found " Joe the Plumber ".

McCain was a terrible candidate any way you slice it. If moderate Democrat was elected - they would have cleaned McCain's clock. The only reason he didn't get clobbered was Palin rallied the conservative base to support him as much as they could support McCain. Without her - McCain had limited fund raising - no excitement - and no Base to get the ground game out. All that adds up to a LOSER as a candidate.

Right now - the REpublican party is VOID of leadership. Obama's term represents an opportunity for the Republicans to find tha tleadership and get back to their conservative roots or limited government, private property rights, strong national security, and promoting Liberty for the individual.

Bush's lead from the bunker mentality allowed the Left to define him - and the growth of the government added to that - and the American public wanted change. After a few years of Obama leadership - they'll be yearning for a Republican to save them. Voter Fraud / Amnesty / gov't subsidies / and a few other issues need to be overcome - and it's a difficult task - but i't's doable with the right stratgy.

706 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:23:17pm

re: #698 Hobbes

Guess I'm not missing much by not watching.

It's funny when they don't do it.

707 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:23:19pm

re: #695 Walter L. Newton

Linking and pasting text dost not thou make thee a scholar.

708 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:23:28pm

re: #697 Sharmuta

This is a direct waste of Louisiana public money, to make some people feel good.

709 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:23:42pm

re: #695 Walter L. Newton

Walter. You don't believe in God yet you quote the Bible?
I'm I on target? Or I'm still watching the game...
But you are quoting the Bible?

710 Sleepyone  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:23:45pm

re: #349 jaunte

I think it would be smart to carefully examine a candidate if the Washington Post was elevating them on the list of Republican leaders.
Especially when they're already winking at the word "evolving" in the story.

"Here, drink from this wine glass. This one right here."

"The chalice from the palace holds the brew that is true."

711 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:24:02pm

re: #640 Racer X

Para sailer get grabbed by a Boeing (unbeleivable accident))

Note to self: do not para sail near an airport.

He was a [censored] idiot to do that anywhere near an airport.

One trusts that he earned his Darwin Award.

712 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:24:42pm

re: #685 mich-again

Yeah. Scholars like you.

I'm not a scholar. Although I am probably more read in the Hebrew and Greek writings than most people. Now, go ye and look at thee commentaries that I spoke of and guided you to, my little one.

713 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:25:00pm

re: #703 MandyManners

And, just wait until CAIR tries to get Islam's version taught. You know it's gonna' happen.

That's for sure. The teachers won't be able to just teach the creation story the majority of the kids are familiar with.

714 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:25:26pm

re: #711 Steffan

He was a [censored] idiot to do that anywhere near an airport.

One trusts that he earned his Darwin Award.

He would earn that award if he survived and parasailed there again.

715 avanti  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:25:40pm

A Thomas Jefferson quote sums it up for me:

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. "

The government should be just as neutral when it come to faith. Many kids in public schools say a silent prayer to their maker before a test,and that's just fine with me. What little I know about religion tells me God hears those prayers just fine. Now, make my kid join in a prayer or even sit through one in a public school and I have a problem. If you want to believe the sun rotates around the earth as the Bible teaches, fine and dandy, just don't make that part of a science class.
Desperate Housewives too racy for you, change the channel and so on. Live and let live. I'll go to hell for the company, you may choose heaven for the climate.

716 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:25:43pm

re: #709 HoosierHoops

Walter. You don't believe in God yet you quote the bible?
I'm I on target? Or I'm still watching the game...
But you are quoting the Bible?

And your point is?

717 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:25:59pm

re: #710 Sleepyone

See, nowthat's why you're Sleepy.

718 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:26:14pm

re: #711 Steffan

He was a [censored] idiot to do that anywhere near an airport.

One trusts that he earned his Darwin Award.

AND ,,, he complained that the airline didn't get him there 'on time" !

719 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:26:15pm

re: #713 jaunte

That's for sure. The teachers won't be able to just teach the creation story the majority of the kids are familiar with.

Next thing they know, CAIR will demand the teaching of any other belief they have which challenges science.

720 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:26:42pm

re: #708 jaunte

This is a direct waste of Louisiana public money, to make some people feel good.

Agreed. Creationist theories don't belong anywhere near a public school science classroom. Maybe in social studies, just to provide context, but never posing as science.

721 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:27:12pm

re: #709 HoosierHoops

Walter. You don't believe in God yet you quote the Bible?
I'm I on target? Or I'm still watching the game...
But you are quoting the Bible?

Consider it like a attorney. He argues a point of law for his clients benefit, even though he may have personal problems with his defense.

722 Hobbes  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:27:51pm

Good Night all!

723 Wishing  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:28:04pm

I think Jindal and Palin both bring MUCH to the republican party: they prove that you can be a minority and have a HUGE voice in the party. My hope is that other young people will catch their vision and 2010 gives us a few seats back, before the push for the WH in '12.
I must admit that I am just sick that Palin was pushing for a constitutional amendment re: marriage, though.

724 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:28:15pm

re: #707 mich-again

Linking and pasting text dost not thou make thee a scholar.

Please link me to any comment where I claimed to be a "scholar."

725 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:28:38pm

re: #674 mich-again

So the Lord's Prayer uttered by Jesus himself is a heathen vain repetition? Really.

Ummmm.... no.

Read the whole chapter, AKA "The Sermon On The Mount."

726 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:28:49pm

re: #708 jaunte

Jaunte, It was their money that financially supported him into the office of Governor...
Louisianians don't view it as a waste of their money....
We outside of La. do though.

727 Sleepyone  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:28:51pm

re: #717 jaunte

See, nowthat's why you're Sleepy.

"The vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison."

728 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:30:11pm

re: #727 Sleepyone

"The vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison."

Sally Slit The Sheets With The Sharp Sheet Slitters

729 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:30:39pm

re: #726 notutopia

Jaunte, It was their money that financially supported him into the office of Governor...
Louisianians don't view it as a waste of their money....
We outside of La. do though.

Well, and many of us inside of Louisiana do, too.

730 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:30:50pm

re: #728 sattv4u2

Sally Slit The Sheets With The Sharp Sheet Slitters

Dang, your drunk tests are hard!

731 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:31:16pm

re: #518 Talon

So that's it then?

Any candidate that believes in a creator is unfit to be POTUS?

Any candidate that believes in offering BOTH sides of an issue is to be cast aside?

Nope; just any candidate who wants to legislate the shoehorning of religious dogma into public high school science class.

"Scientists" say that man is causing global warming. SCIENCE!

Scientists are currently following the empirical evidence away from that conclusion.

Following that logic....

Any candidate that is open to debate the man made global warming THEORY is the same as a candidate that is open to debate evolution THEORY?

The two are not comparable. Global warming theory is bad science. Better science is now refuting it. Evolutionary theory is good science. Creationism isn't science at all.

Teaching BOTH sides (Evolution/Intelligent design) = stuffing creationism down our throats?

Empirically speaking there AREN'T two sides. Only evolutionary theory enjoys evidentian support, and it enjoys a century and a half of it.

Here's a better idea. How about the "origin of life" issue be left OUT of school curriculum until one side can PROVE they are RIGHT?

Evolution has NOT been proven as a FACT. It is a THEORY. A theory being pushed as fact because there is a "consensus". Sound familiar?

A theory in science is much stronger than the word implies in common parlance. And evolution is one of the strongest theories in science. Since science is empirical, it works within a statistical probability framework, using experimental data. 100% certainty that a theory is true is unobtainable in principle, besides which such a happening would foreclose the future for any further data being able to improve a theory. But some contentions, for instance the contention that the universe, the earth, and all species on it were created separately and as is within the span of 6 days a few thousand years ago, can be absolutely proven to be false.

WRT the R party....the repubs decided that they needed to run to the middle this last election. Now I hear "experts" crying that they need to be even MORE middle. EXCELLENT! You get your ass handed to you when you run "sorta" middle (John McCain should switch parties IMO) so...you try to go even further to the middle? When do you walk past "middle" and end up left of center? Where does "middle" stop?

Had McCain been a hard religious right rock ribbed socon, he would've done worse than McGovern.

And just because I want to end this post on a positive note, Ann Coulter and I ARE going to invade your town and convert ALL of you to Christianity. Resistance is futile................or something.

Carry on.

I'll struggle on somehow.

732 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:31:30pm

re: #719 MandyManners

That's my major objection to this law he passed in La.
It's just an open door for more religious/ideology challenges.
We need to be vigilant that this is how Islam will enter into our school system...

733 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:32:12pm

re: #726 notutopia

When the inevitable happens, they'll probably blame the ACLU for bringing the constitutional issues to everyone's attention.
It's a badly written, ill-conceived law, and Jindal is responsible for supporting it. The rest of the conservatives in the country who are being encouraged to see him as a future standard-bearer need to bear this in mind.

734 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:32:21pm

re: #716 Walter L. Newton

And your point is?

Oh..Walter.. I don't want to hurt you..But you don't believe in God?
Everybody I know believes in God.. In thier own way,,Heck I was raised a Catholic, My wife is a Jewish..my friends are everything..But I have never met anyone that deep inside doesn't think there is a God Somewhere..
I shouldn't post this..But..It's the 4th quarter Walter...getting sleepy friend

735 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:32:27pm

re: #727 Sleepyone

"The vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison."

Rubber baby-buggy bumpers.

736 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:32:39pm

re: #729 reine.de.tout

Thanxs. Amend ...Some Louisianians....
: )

737 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:33:04pm

re: #728 sattv4u2

Sally Slit The Sheets With The Sharp Sheet Slitters

I'm a fud-pucker. I fud pucks. I'm the fastest fud-pucker that ever fudded pucks.

738 Sleepyone  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:33:30pm

re: #727 Sleepyone

"The vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison."

I couldn't resist quoting the great Danny Kaye from The Court Jester. His scene with the poisoned drink seemed appropriate for the post I was originally commenting on in #710. I'm sure Walter can recall many more lines from this movie than I can though.

739 swamprat  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:34:05pm

re: #727 Sleepyone

"The vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison."

But the flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

740 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:34:06pm

re: #724 Walter L. Newton

Please link me to any comment where I claimed to be a "scholar."

Ha. Post after post you brag about how enlightened and well read you are and then you top it off by playing Mickey the Dope. Bravo!

741 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:34:11pm

re: #732 notutopia

That's my major objection to this law he passed in La.
It's just an open door for more religious/ideology challenges.
We need to be vigilant that this is how Islam will enter into our school system...

What's to prevent them from demanding that Islamic history be taught alonside American history once this camel's nose gets far under the tent?

742 reesmatt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:34:48pm

re: #683 Bulldog1967

I don't see this as a big issue. There a re FAR more pressing matters we need to address. And Jindal is right on almost all of them, imo.

I agree with Bulldog1967. This is not a huge issue, and I fear that turning minor and solitary issues like this into litmus tests is the kind of misguided party orthodoxy that will narrow the tent and give birth to our own versions of the Kos Kids and Moveon, and allow them to thrive. If we're a strong enough party to accommodate pro-choice Libertarians alongside pro-life Republicans, and anti-tax foreign policy doves alongside anti-tax foreign policy hawks, then we can certainly accommodate those that support allowing creationism to be taught in schools alongside those that are opposed to it. And in the interest of intellectual consistency, if we oppose its teaching on the grounds that it's false and non-science based, there are a whole host of other topics taught in just about every public school that we ought to be, but aren't presently, opposing just as vigorously.

743 jaunte  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:05pm

re: #738 Sleepyone

Here's the scene:

744 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:08pm

re: #731 Salamantis

Nope; just any candidate who wants to legislate the shoehorning of religious dogma into public high school science class.

Read the bill. It doesn;t say that. [Link: www.legis.state.la.us...]

Scientists are currently following the empirical evidence away from that conclusion.

And that's what the bill does, actually. It states "to create and foster
an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.

745 Silvergirl  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:11pm

re: #735 MandyManners

Rubber baby-buggy bumpers.

I know New York, I need New York. I know I need unique New York.

746 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:14pm

re: #733 jaunte

I'm bearing....gnashing my teeth. He won't get support from me.
We have to keep searching.

747 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:19pm

re: #729 reine.de.tout

Well, as a silver lining, it might make some people pay closer attention to what their local school boards are doing. Because it's going to be up to you local taxpayers to avoid cruising into lawsuit territory.

748 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:51pm

re: #734 HoosierHoops

Oh..Walter.. I don't want to hurt you..But you don't believe in God?
Everybody I know believes in God.. In thier own way,,Heck I was raised a Catholic, My wife is a Jewish..my friends are everything..But I have never met anyone that deep inside doesn't think there is a God Somewhere..
I shouldn't post this..But..It's the 4th quarter Walter...getting sleepy friend

You're not hurting me, and I have no bone to pick with you on this subject. And I don't have any argument with any religion, believers or detractors.

I do have some lines drawn in the sand when it comes to religion and politics, religion and science and religion and medicine, but those are my lines. I have my opinions, but I have no reason to force my opinions on anyone.

But, I will state my beliefs (or lack of beliefs) when asked, or when the topic lends to a discussion.

749 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:35:56pm

re: #747 wolfie

Well, as a silver lining, it might make some people pay closer attention to what their local school boards are doing. Because it's going to be up to you local taxpayers to avoid cruising into lawsuit territory.

You are absolutely correct.

750 Sleepyone  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:36:04pm

re: #738 Sleepyone

I couldn't resist quoting the great Danny Kaye from The Court Jester. His scene with the poisoned drink seemed appropriate for the post I was originally commenting on in #710. I'm sure Walter can recall many more lines from this movie than I can though.

I seem to have had too much brew myself. I got the quotes wrong. Here are the lines from the movie that I was trying to remember:

Hawkins: I've got it! I've got it! The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true! Right?
Griselda: Right. But there's been a change: they broke the chalice from the palace!
Hawkins: They *broke* the chalice from the palace?
Griselda: And replaced it with a flagon.
Hawkins: A flagon...?
Griselda: With the figure of a dragon.
Hawkins: Flagon with a dragon.
Griselda: Right.
Hawkins: But did you put the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle?
Griselda: No! The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon! The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!
Hawkins: The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.
Griselda: Just remember that.

751 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:36:17pm

re: #548 ornery elephant

Sal, you outta cross-post this comment and the one earlier where you rip Reagan, over at Daily Kos - You might just set a record for updings in one day over there.

Some people just have a hard time with uncomfortable truths. But facts are stubborn things - for everybody.

752 Sleepyone  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:36:30pm

re: #739 swamprat

But the flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Ha! Beat me to it.

753 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:36:33pm

re: #742 reesmatt

Where's your blog?

BTW, how will you like CAIR forcing their version of creation to be taught in public schools?

754 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:37:15pm

re: #745 Silvergirl

I know New York, I need New York. I know I need unique New York.

I've never heard of that one.

755 Sleepyone  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:37:15pm

re: #743 jaunte

Here's the scene:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Awesome! Thanks.

756 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:38:18pm

re: #715 avanti

That is the essence of the First Amendment.

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. "

"Congress shall make no law."

What your neighbor believes is between him and whatever deity he pays homage to.

It's not your business, and it's certainly not the business of the government.

In that, I agree with you 100%.

757 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:38:44pm

re: #748 Walter L. Newton

You're not hurting me, and I have no bone to pick with you on this subject. And I don't have any argument with any religion, believers or detractors.

I do have some lines drawn in the sand when it comes to religion and politics, religion and science and religion and medicine, but those are my lines. I have my opinions, but I have no reason to force my opinions on anyone.

But, I will state my beliefs (or lack of beliefs) when asked, or when the topic lends to a discussion.

See? you were talking politics and religion and I was was checking out Stats..
I agree with you about that... End of Game..Good Night Walter and all you awesome Lizards!

758 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:38:48pm

re: #741 MandyManners

Right now this is limited to science. I would think it would have to be put to a legal test to allow it into history curriculum.

759 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:39:07pm

Cartman sings The Body of Christ

Night all :D

760 wolfie  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:39:33pm

Now this is a sentence that from time to time actually has to be said.....and I think it's a damned good reason never to be a sportcaster:

He threw three free throws.

761 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:39:56pm

re: #742 reesmatt

And in the interest of intellectual consistency, if we oppose its teaching on the grounds that it's false and non-science based, there are a whole host of other topics taught in just about every public school that we ought to be, but aren't presently, opposing just as vigorously.

Well, then it's only fair that we allow any and all bullshit into our classrooms, because if we don't stop all of it, we must allow all of it. I can't wait for revisionist history class- all the LGF posts on radical islam have given me a leg up on Holocaust denial. Hope I get an "A".

762 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:40:19pm

re: #758 notutopia

Right now this is limited to science. I would think it would have to be put to a legal test to allow it into history curriculum.

All I'm saying is that this is just the first test, and CAIR is watching it closely.

763 HoosierHoops  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:40:40pm

re: #760 wolfie

Now this is a sentence that from time to time actually has to be said.....and I think it's a damned good reason never to be a sportcaster:

He threw three free throws.

Here Comes the Doctor!
excuse me? :)

764 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:40:55pm

re: #735 MandyManners

Rubber baby-buggy bumpers.

Captain who?

765 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:41:40pm

re: #764 Steffan

Captain who?

Captain Underpants!

766 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:42:50pm

re: #571 AceR

Thank you for your comments. I won't try to sway you to my side, you have obviously made up your mind. But I would like to tell you that I had an abortion in 1974 and it is a horrific practice that is dumbed down by liberals in general and Planned Parenthood specifically.

I had a choice back then. The choice was to have unprotected sex. The baby I carried at that time didn't get a choice. He had to live with the really bad choice that I made so that I wouldn't be inconvienced in my career. I can't undo what I did back then, but I can surely use my voice today to speak for those who cannot speak.

That is your retrospective opinion. Other women who have had abortions have their own retrospective opinions, and furthermore, whether their opinions agree with yours or not, theirs are no less valid for them than yours are for you.

767 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:43:05pm

re: #450 Killgore Trout

Of course not. It was secular humanism and Enlightenment philosophy that is responsible for our country and our constitution. In fact, those are the principles responsible for freedom wherever it is found.

As a more or less secular humanist raised Protestant, I'd have to say that actually the Catholic church was for a long time a leading factor in the runup to the "enlightenment". Rodney Stark's book "the victory of reason: how Christianity led to freedom, capitalism, and western success" makes a good case for the thesis of the title and subtitle.

As with a parent who raises a daring child, the parent may at some point insist on more control than is bearable to the child or warranted by the situation. The child-no-longer may chafe. Secular humanism has big achievements of its own, from the day when it split with the church and went its own way.

The ways of secular humanism and of christian philosophy are not opposites. Not at war. Different, and opposed on some points and some issues, granted. Pace all that, the commonalities are more important.

768 ggt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:43:20pm

Hello Night Lizards! It snowed and produced a wind chill of 17 degrees in near Iowa today. It was almost Officially Cold.

I didn't pay attention to anything today. It was kinda nice.

How are you-all this evening and what are we talking about?

769 realwest  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:43:24pm

Hey y'all - sorry to be so late, but this computer is dying a very slow death and NO Best Buy did not call today to talk about (or from my perspective) negotiate a new computer - so I'm gonna get on their case tomorrow morning and stay on it until I either get satisfaction or the name of the in house legal counsel for Best Buy!
What have I missed so far?!

770 maximoso  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:44:11pm

"re: 723

I must admit that I am just sick that Palin was pushing for a constitutional amendment re: marriage, though. "

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------

The constitutional ammendment issue for Marriage was created by activist liberal judges going against the will of the public's support. When Couple X was married in State X - they moved to state Y - and asked state Y to recognize them as legally married. It's a sticky topic forced upon American public by Activist liberal judges. IMHO - The gay community could get equal rights if they wanted to - and have the support of majority of Americans. But the gay activists want " Marriage " which runs counter to the majority of American citizenry.

If there is ever a constitutional Ammendment for " Gay Marriage " it requires 2/3 of both the house and senate. So if it's keeping you up at night - you might as well sleep peacefully. It won't happen unless the great majority of Americans support the ammendment.

771 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:45:56pm

Had GWB not questioned the notion that science required embryonic stem cells many subsequent advances in medical science would not have been made. Low and behold it turns out that research doesn't require embryonic stem cells. I kind of wonder if the big push to use embryonic stem cells specifically wasn't just a political trick to control access to the valuable raw materials.

772 realwest  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:46:01pm

re: #768 ggt Hey ggt! "Hello Night Lizards! It snowed and produced a wind chill of 17 degrees in near Iowa today. It was almost Officially Cold." ?!?
Shoot, it's going down to 26 here tonight, not including wind chill and that is by damn COLD!

773 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:46:09pm

re: #770 maximoso

If there is ever a constitutional Ammendment for " Gay Marriage " it requires 2/3 of both the house and senate. So if it's keeping you up at night - you might as well sleep peacefully. It won't happen unless the great majority of Americans support the ammendment.

That's in addition to the 3/4 of the states needed to pass an amendment after the Congressional vote.

774 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:46:15pm

Oh so good. The take down of sock puppets and chalk sniffers at Law R us.

775 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:46:39pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

No, that's not what I'm going for at all. However, no matter how much churches preach against gays and homosexuality there's about a 10% chance that the person sitting next to you in church is gay. There's about a 10% chance that the preacher is gay and there's about a 10% chance that the politician who passes anti-gay laws is gay. There's no way around it.

Those are phony numbers. The fraction of homosexuals in the general population is under 5%, and it hardly figures that gays are concentrated in the pews, and underrepresented among the non-churchgoers.

776 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:46:56pm

re: #584 RubyTuesday

I wish I could give credit to the proper person who said above that it would only take half a day to explain the creation as part of origin, along with other theories, not proseletyzing. Mandating any religious stance puts us in the same class as the England that caused us to flee for a new land. Leave it up to the states, or to the school district to decide. I want to see fiscal conservatism, respect for life, and small government get our attention.

Religious dogma does not belong in public high school science class. Period.

777 notutopia  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:47:32pm

re: #762 MandyManners

Mandy, I know. That is why I urged everyone to write an email letter to every county School Board of Education in the State of Texas. If we do not stay active and verbalize our dissent and stay on top of these attempts before they become enacted into the school systems, we will lose and so will our future generations.
CAIR is watching to see if we care enough to act.

778 realwest  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:48:31pm

re: #776 Salamantis
Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winnah here folks.

779 legalpad  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:48:40pm

Well, I was going to say something about the futility of debating religion, much less The Bible. But I think I am too tired right now. I would just say that there are levels of belief, say maybe, emotional and intellectual, and often, they seem to function separately. Issac Newton for example, etc.

To talk about people's religious beliefs as if they are fools is not really an accurate picture. We are talking about emotions here. If you daydream, ever, if you are/were in love, if you have ever mourned - this is where religion is. It is not Calculus.

Yes, religious people are drawn into discussions in which they sometimes try to defend their feelings/views logically, with evidence, etc. But if their defense is lacking, it does not mean that religion does not have a rightful place in the world of emotions. And those emotions represent something. Just because we don't know, as in Physics, exactly what is represented, does not mean that we have proven that there it nothing to it. Meaning is self-defined within those possessing the property of mind. To say there isn't any meaning is logically ridiculous.

It is important to remember, most of the world has some religion, and those without it have not exactly impressed us with their intelligence or honesty, especially when they get in control.

I am not a Christian, but I love many Christians. I have been, and am, in love with a few of them, and I would do anything for them. I hate to see these profitless arguments between people that want too close to the same thing to be this divided.

Disclaimer: These statements are addressing ideas in general, not attempting to refute anyone's specific statements. Any resemblance to anyones statements is purely coincidental. Cut me some slack here. I'm really tired.

780 mich-again  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:50:31pm

re: #776 Salamantis

Religious dogma does not belong in public high school science class. Period.

I hope you are as passionate in that regard when your local high school shows Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" in science class. Or is pushing politics in science class less egregious an offense?

781 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:51:01pm

re: #765 MandyManners

Captain Underpants!

Captain Everything.

782 realwest  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:52:04pm

re: #777 notutopia
Hi there, um why is CAIR watching this closely? Do they have an interpretation of Creationism/ID that THEY want to push in the public schools too?

I'm against teaching religion - except maybe for a comparative religion or philospopy course - in Public Schools or for that matter in Publically Funded or partially funded colleges and Universities as any part of the science curriculum - but I didn't know that CAIR had an ID theory of their own that they want to push for.

783 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:52:04pm

re: #776 Salamantis

Religious dogma does not belong in public high school science class. Period.

re: #778 realwest

Here's the bill. Please cut and paste the part where it promotes "Religious Dogma"
[Link: www.legis.state.la.us...]

784 pottymouth1  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:53:31pm

Well maybe not Jindal in '12, but if the GOP needs to rally the NRA maybe Plaxico will do in a pinch.

785 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:54:46pm

re: #601 TheMatrix31

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I have a crude understanding of all of this, but if it's been found to violate the First Amendment, then what exactly is there to be in an uproar about?

They keep trying to circumvent it, bankrupting school districts through losing court battles in the process. That's not good for the kids.

786 Steffan  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:55:00pm

re: #768 ggt

Hello Night Lizards! It snowed and produced a wind chill of 17 degrees in near Iowa today. It was almost Officially Cold.

I didn't pay attention to anything today. It was kinda nice.

How are you-all this evening and what are we talking about?

According to the Weather Channel (www.weather.com), in Sunny Inland SoCal it's 55 degrees with 3 mph wind from the east and 69% humidity. A nice night, IOW. :p

787 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:55:21pm

re: #784 pottymouth1

Well maybe not Jindal in '12, but if the GOP needs to rally the NRA maybe Plaxico will do in a pinch.

I know you meant that as sarc and humor, but the NRA must be pissed at Plaxico on many fronts

bad publicity'
the fact that the NRA preaches gun safety
the fact that the NRA preaches proper registration

788 reesmatt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:55:25pm

re: #753 MandyManners

Well, they're already teaching their version of history, and we don't seem to be breaking down any doors to stop it. Is teaching "creation science" in the classroom wrongheaded? Yes. Is it silly? Yes. Is creationism something which, even if one believes it, can be taught in schools as science? I seriously doubt it. But is it dangerous? I'm sorry, but I just don't see any devious ulterior motives behind allowing creationism to be taught. I see it instead as a reflexive action against a government that for too long has protected and actively promoted an evangelical secularism as the state religion to the exclusion of all other religions. Although I am a Christian, I don't pretend to speak for those who support allowing creationism in school, as I'm personally not terribly jazzed about the idea of delegating to the public school system the task of teaching of religious concepts. However, I can certainly identify with the expression of frustration at a school system that nine times out of ten insists on teaching what most parents don't want taught (Columbus was evil, the Indians lived in a utopian paradise before the white man ruined everything, global warming is beyond debate) and then refuses to teach (in at least a few school districts, apparently) what they do want taught.

789 Clemente  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:55:26pm

re: #737 MandyManners

I'm a fud-pucker. I fud pucks. I'm the fastest fud-pucker that ever fudded pucks.

"He's not the fig-plucker nor the fig-plucker's son, but he can pluck figs til the fig-pluckin's done!"

790 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:56:40pm

re: #788 reesmatt

I'm sorry, but I just don't see any devious ulterior motives behind allowing creationism to be taught.

Gee- how about undermining the Constitution? Not "devious" enough for you?

791 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:56:53pm

re: #680 skywarner

OT breaking news from IBN in India....

"India demands Pakistan turn over Mumbai suspects or "face the consequences."

[Link: ibnlive.in.com...]

Ummm.... This could (make that will) get real ugly, real fast.

I almost skimmed right by your comment.

Is this a reliable source? If it's true that India is officially making demands of Pakistan, demands that Pakistan is not about to meet, then the situation really has hit the fan. This is a very big deal.

792 Fierce Guppy  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:57:05pm

re: #107 Gordon Marock

Why can't we just nominate Thomas Sowell and be done with it.

If only Thomas Sowell were a younger man. He will be 82 in 2012.

793 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:57:10pm

re: #782 realwest

Hi there, um why is CAIR watching this closely? Do they have an interpretation of Creationism/ID that THEY want to push in the public schools too?

I'm against teaching religion - except maybe for a comparative religion or philospopy course - in Public Schools or for that matter in Publically Funded or partially funded colleges and Universities as any part of the science curriculum - but I didn't know that CAIR had an ID theory of their own that they want to push for.

Islam has its own version of creationism, and the ID movement here is in cahoots with a Muslim from Turkey.

794 mcmeador  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:57:54pm

I remember in high school, I used to laugh at and be annoyed at students who complained about having to learn about evolution. In my ninth grade biology class, we had a choice in whether we studied the theory of evolution or intelligent design. But there was one student who even had to complain about that because they didn't believe in evolution and didn't think it should be taught. I thought it was so ignorant that someone would be offended by a theory, and I considered myself a Christian at the time as well.

As I have gotten older, I have become a bit indecisive about what I believe. It's just kind of up in the air. I don't identify myself as a Christian any longer, and find that I lean towards a view of life as something that naturally occurs when the conditions are right and that can evolve over time to become more complex. But I still find myself annoyed by the close-mindedness of others, and now it is applying to those railing against intelligent design. This site has seemed to take up a crusade against intelligent design, and this newest post seems to highlight the extremities to which it goes.

It's one thing to oppose teaching solely intelligent design as the theory of the origin of life. But to suggest that it is something horrible for it to be simply permitted to discuss it as an alternative to the theory of evolution is absurd. Even more ridiculous is to oppose the discussion of criticisms of the theory of evolution. After all, it is just a theory, much like the theory of global warming. And I'm sure most of the people on this site, including Charles, would not have a problem discussing the criticisms of that theory.

The fact of the matter is that we don't know how life began. Evolution is a theory. Intelligent design is a theory. Maybe intelligent design doesn't have scientific evidence to support it, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. After all, the big bang theory states that the universe exploded into being out of practically nothing. The singularity from which our universe originated represented the breakdown of the theory of general relativity, meaning the theory couldn't apply to it. Could it not be possible that life exploded into being similarly, the "singularity" from which it exploded representing the breakdown of the theory of evolution? In both the theories of the origin of the universe and the origin of life, is it not possible that both were initiated by a supernatural force and that natural laws took over from there?

Anyway, I'm not trying to prove the validity of intelligent design nor the theory of evolution. All I'm saying is that we don't know what happened, so why not discuss both? They are the two prevailing views of life's origins, and there should be no reason to shut out either one.

795 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:58:06pm

re: #790 Sharmuta

Gee- how about undermining the Constitution? Not "devious" enough for you?

Have you read the bill? If so, can you point to the part that violates the Constitution?

If you haven't, here it is
[Link: www.legis.state.la.us...]

796 poopeedoo  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:58:12pm

re: #765 MandyManners

Captain Underpants!

Those books are SO funny. Diary of a Wimpy Kid books are also terrific.

797 Last Mohican  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:58:20pm

re: #737 MandyManners

I'm a fud-pucker. I fud pucks. I'm the fastest fud-pucker that ever fudded pucks.

Wouldn't a fudpucker be someone who pucks fuds, rather than someone who fuds pucks?

I'm just sayin'.

798 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:58:33pm

re: #788 reesmatt

There is no such thing as "creation science." Period. Full stop.

799 reesmatt  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:59:38pm

re: #790 Sharmuta

Gee- how about undermining the Constitution? Not "devious" enough for you?

How is allowing creationism to be taught undermining the Constitution? And does it undermine the Constitution more than say, teaching that the Constitution is a "living, breathing, document", which is standard fare in every public school system?

800 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 8:59:52pm

Nighty-night, Lizards.

801 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 9:00:18pm

re: #799 reesmatt

How is allowing creationism to be taught undermining the Constitution? And does it undermine the Constitution more than say, teaching that the Constitution is a "living, breathing, document", which is standard fare in every public school system?

Have you ever heard of the First Amendment?

802 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 1, 2008 9:00:52pm

re: #794 mcmeador

Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory. It is neither testable, nor falsifiable according to the scientific method. If anything it is a philosophy. Either way- it's not science and shouldn't be taught in science class.