Strains credulity...

Thanks for your great work and dedication, Zombie. We appreciate you!

If, as Savage says, he was a gay man AND, as stated in articles Zombie links, he dated his instructor at the Arab language class it might be an ''honor killing.''

I must say that after reading numerous other LGF'ers postings that I am highly suspicious that this is foul and very disturbing.
Has anyone heard what OSHA's findings were yet?

[Link: blogs.sfweekly.com...]

He gets into the elevator car. For some inexplicable reason, the elevator gets stuck between floors -- we think between the sixth and seventh. He is somehow able to open the doors from inside and sees that he's between floors," said Krimsky, who is investigating the death. "We know he got into the elevator ... and ended up in the elevator well. How he did that is under investigation.

This seems to be the direction the investigation is headed.

Heck, it might be an ''honor killing'' even is he dated the one female instructor they have.
They don't like that, either.
(What am I saying, they don't like anything!)

Sounds suspicious.

I'm no health nut but going down 6 or 7 flights is a piece of cake.
He cycled for fun.
That would have been nothing to him.

re: #3 mean Gene

Whose honor? These people (Islamists & the Koran) state that homosexuals should be thrown off the tops of tall buildings. Perhaps in this case of an elevator shaft was just as good.

/adjusts tin foil hat

re: #6 mean Gene

Good save Gene
;)

A gay Jewish man, who was a pro-Israel activist, dating a Muslim Arab language instructor, mysteriously dies in an elevator shaft accident.

Movie of the week?

Jihad in the streets of America?

The SF media will get hemorrhoids trying to spin this into something innocuous.

But why would he get inside of a broken elevator?!
No signs? - sue the building.
Signs were removed? - suspicious, perhaps to make him think it wasn't broken. But how would they make the elevator stop?

Queers For "Palestine" were unavailable for comment.

re: #16 WrathofG-d
BIG WHACK!

re: #12 Racer X

A gay Jewish man, who was a pro-Israel activist, dating a Muslim Arab language instructor, mysteriously dies in an elevator shaft accident.

Movie of the week?

"The Hershey Proclamation"?

re: #12 Racer X

A gay Jewish man, who was a pro-Israel activist, dating a Muslim Arab language instructor, mysteriously dies in an elevator shaft accident.

Movie of the week?

Lifetime is drawing up the contract right now. The studio heads are debating who could play the leading man/men.

re: #19 SteveC

Lifetime is drawing up the contract right now. The studio heads are debating who could play the leading man/men.

Wouldn't that be Logo, rather than Lifetime?

re: #15 bosforus

But why would he get inside of a broken elevator?!
No signs? - sue the building.
Signs were removed? - suspicious, perhaps to make him think it wasn't broken. But how would they make the elevator stop?

Did you notice this, from zombie's post?

Bernheim said the elevator was not working last week and had been secured so that no one could enter it.

The immense smell of rotten fish.

Sad.

re: #16 WrathofG-d

Not nice, Wrath.

So how about Irv Rubin of the JDL, hmm?

Did he have a cell phone? Good question Savage.
Why didn't he use it? Good question Savage.

This was cold premeditated murder.

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

Why a big whack for Wrath? There is a "Queers for Palestine" group in San Francisco.

Perhaps it was meant in a positive way. One may possibly enjoy being whacked.

/

Poor guy.
What a way to go.

re: #18 saberry0530

"The Hershey Proclamation"?

"Brokeback Cablecar"

But Savage is INCENSED about the top-down, all-but-official cover-up!

WHY a cover-up?

re: #1 J.D.

Strains credulity...

Easier ways to get a known cyclist...

re: #21 CyanSnowHawk

Wouldn't that be Logo, rather than Lifetime?

Logo isn't available in my area, so I can't say.

re: #24 poopeedoo

Not nice, Wrath.

If there really is a Queers for Palestine group in SF, I humbly remove my comment. :)

re: #19 SteveC

Lifetime is drawing up the contract right now. The studio heads are debating who could play the leading man/men.

That's sick. A human being just died.

re: #30 Racer X

"Brokeback Cablecar"

I don't think making jokes about this man's death is appropriate at this time (nor if it is ever going to be appropriate)

Lizards, Some respect here please!
This good man who is now DEAD was a strong supporter of Anti-Jihad and an advocate for Jews in civil rights. He was a Doctor.
He didn't just fall down this elevator shaft!

Very suspicious.

I wouldn't be surprised if rabid death cult eternal victim - or the like- put him there.

I hope the SFPD are putting a lot of effort into investigating this one.

re: #37 notutopia

Lizards, Some respect here please!
This good man who is now DEAD was a strong supporter of Anti-Jihad and an advocate for Jews in civil rights. He was a Doctor.
He didn't just fall down this elevator shaft!

Pro-Israel
Pro-Cycling
&
Anti-Prop 8.

~Sounds like a perfect candidate for an LGF "lizardiod" (if not Charles himself). I agree, jokes about his death are not funny!

This was no accident. I would bet a years salary on it.

re: #36 WrathofG-d

I don't think making jokes about this man's death is appropriate at this time (nor if it is ever going to be appropriate)

You're right.

I apologize for being a jerk.

I wish you'd stop with the Cheap movie titles. I never heard of this guy until 5 minutes ago and I think he deserves a little respect. I can't believe the sick remarks.

re: #27 So?

Did he have a cell phone? Good question Savage.
Why didn't he use it? Good question Savage.

This was cold premeditated murder.

I'd have to think that you would have precious little time to make a call while falling down an elevator shaft.
At this point, I'm thinking accidental death with a whole bunch of circumstantial pointers that say it needs a serious investigation.

Whoa, this whole thing stinks to high heaven, but I'm also not exactly overjoyed to hear he was an "occasional zombietime contributor" either!
And if they have CCTV in the lobby - don't they have CCTV in the other floors or in the elevator cabs?!

I heard part of Savage's radio broadcast, while on the other thread earlier. I don't see evidence of foul play in what's been presented here, but I agree that an investigation is imperative.

re: #22 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The immense smell of rotten fish.

Michael Savage has been talking about it and the pressing issues seem to be:
1) Why was he in the building if his Arabic class had been canceled?
2) How did he get in the elevator?
3) When did he make the phone call?
Answering any of these questions leads to even more questions. The next few days will be most intriguing. Assuming the police continue to provide information.

re: #28 CyanSnowHawk

Yes, there are those that enjoy being whacked!
And there are those that are Whacked out when it comes to sexual bigotry.

re: #39 hellosnackbar

I hope the SFPD are putting a lot of effort into investigating this one.

NO, they are NOT, and THAT is what is ringing alarm bells for Savage and others in SF!

WHY the "Nothing here folks, move along now..." attitude from the detectives?

re: #44 CyanSnowHawk

I'd have to think that you would have precious little time to make a call while falling down an elevator shaft.
At this point, I'm thinking accidental death with a whole bunch of circumstantial pointers that say it needs a serious investigation.

He could have used it when he stopped and saw he was between floors. There is also an emergency call button and a telephone in most elevator cars for this purpose. He was murdered.

re: #39 hellosnackbar
Well I hope that the FBI gets involved - don't really know how good the SFPD Detectives are.

re: #5 bosforus

[Link: blogs.sfweekly.com...]

This seems to be the direction the investigation is headed.

He was in the elevator when it got stuck between floors, but was found in the elevator well. What did he do? Chew his way through the floor?

re: #53 Soona'

He was in the elevator when it got stuck between floors, but was found in the elevator well. What did he do? Chew his way through the floor?

Ya got me! Any security cameras in the building? I haven't heard any mention of that either.

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

I noted this upthread but I think it bears repeating.

On thread after thread here, we have seen calls by imams and other Muslim religious authorities to execute gays by throwing them to their death from a great height, such as a cliff or tall building.

Throwing someone down an elevator shaft would certainly qualify as a Koran-style "gay execution"--with the added advantage that the body would be nowhere near as readily discovered at the bottom of a shaft than it would on the sidewalk.

Excellent point, Buzz.

re: #48 bosforus

Assuming the police continue to provide information.

An ongoing criminal investigation should be kept under wraps.
If there is NOT an investigation ongoing, that should be publicized.
Those may be the only things we know for a while.

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

A link showing that to be a punishment for homosexuality would be nice. I know a caller said that was the punishment for two people once but I hesitate to that it's the punishment.

re: #59 bosforus

A link showing that to be a punishment for homosexuality would be nice. I know a caller said that was the punishment for two people once but I hesitate to that it's the punishment.

In Iran, gays are hanged from a crane.

re: #44 CyanSnowHawk
Why do you think accidental? I mean, if the elevator was shut down, the doors to it should have been locked on every floor (NB, don't know about SF, but in NYC they all now automatically lock on each floor when not in service).

OK. Reality check here lizards.

1. An assassin stalled the elevator between floors, waited (on top of the elevator?) for the victim to try and force his way out and then pushed the victim?

2. Elevator system is under repair. Victim manages to call elevator anyway. Elevator gets stuck. Victim tries to escape. Falls.

The sun goes down, and the granite shines pink. Towercam evening; the San Gabriel Mountains of California.

O humanity, all this strife is useless.

Good Evening All.

Many elevators have video cameras in them. Perhaps they are sure it was an accident because they have film of him prying open the doors and climbing out?

My first gut reaction is the "honor killing" angle though... he was to fly to Israel a few days later. Perhaps the significant other was afraid of being outed? Being a gay Muslim is hard enough, but dating a Jew as well... someone's family was gonna go ballistic at that kind of news.

re: #56 CapeCoddah

Excellent point, Buzz.

Isn't that what the Pali's did in celebration of their election?

re: #65 Soona'

Isn't that what the Pali's did in celebration of their election?

Not sure, missed that one.

re: #53 Soona' That's why I asked about CCTV in the elevator cab - in NYC you can't hardly find a building more than 6 stories tall without CCTV's - even in the Commerical building I used to teach in (which was all of 10 floors) we had CCTV's down to the lobby - with videotape) in every elevator cab.

Recently in New York...

/RIP Kieran

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you.
F*n pigs.

re: #53 Soona'

He was in the elevator when it got stuck between floors, but was found in the elevator well. What did he do? Chew his way through the floor?

There's only one way this could work without foul play:

The elevator stops between floors. He pries the inner elevator doors open and finds the car has descended enough that the top portion of the lower floor doors are exposed. Getting down on his knees, he somehow gets the outer door open. He slides through the gap, assuming that he's free and can just take the steps (or another elevator). But just after he gets free, he slips and falls into the open elevator shaft.

Very far fetched theory. Why not just push the Emergency Call button or use the phone?

Did he get the outer doors completely open? Most folks would make their escape as soon as there was enough room to wiggle out... and if they slipped, just fall against the half closed elevator doors.

If the MSM cannot figure out the motive for "militants" to attack, torture and murder Jews in a compound in Mumbai, I hardly think they are going to pursue this story.

Moving right along...

re: #57 Iron Fist
No, but we can hope for that Bro' - I just don't have a whole lotta faith in the local detectives - just based on anectodal evidence from friends who live or used to live there.

re: #65 Soona'

Isn't that what the Pali's did in celebration of their election?

Hamas did throw a Fatah man from a 5 or 6 story roof, or window. I remember reading about that. IIRC, that man was a Fatah leader in Gaza. Don't remember anything else.

re: #70 bosforus

Thank you.
F*n pigs.

Now that we might be able to find an Anti-Gay, instead of that tired Anti-Israel angle, the news, and police might actually find something.

Elevators are generally very very very safe.

Ojoe, architect.

If the elevator was broken, and "secure" how did he get into it in the first place? Don't they have to be in an operation mode to even have the doors open?

This educated guy gets into an elevator that is not working, then that same elevator goes up 7 floors?

Then, when trying to get out of it, he climbs out through the . . .floor? no the ceiling, and instead of falling back into the elevator he falls to the bottom of the shaft?

I am not buying it. . .

re: #69 experiencedtraveller

Recently in New York...

/RIP Kieran

Lord, who does that? When those doors open, if you see a big dark space and cables, the car IS NOT THERE. That is from not paying attention, sad as it is.

re: #76 Ojoe

Elevators are generally very very very safe.

Ojoe, architect.

Is that you, Otis?

Nothing to see here, folks.Just move along. The authorities are investigating...

Re SFPD's credulity, where is Harry Callahan when you need him?

Well here is something else I haven't see mentioned yet. This was a commercial building correct? If so did they have a security dept.? Now couple this with the fact that every elevator I have been in has an addition button besides the floor numbers. A STOP/CALL button. Pushing this button set off and alarm. Then most elevators also have an emergency phone as well. Who and where the hell where all these of these being monitored?

re: #79 A Kiwi Infidel

Otis is a very old company & did not last by making dangerous elevators.

re: #81 grumpy old codger

Nothing to see here, folks.Just move along. The authorities are investigating...

Get in line!

re: #62 experiencedtraveller Why wouldn't the victim use the emergency button or the phone/intercom to the lobby if he was stuck in an elevator? And as I said, if it was really down for repairs, he should never have been able to get in that particular elevator cab.

re: #71 SteveC

There's only one way this could work without foul play:

The elevator stops between floors. He pries the inner elevator doors open and finds the car has descended enough that the top portion of the lower floor doors are exposed. Getting down on his knees, he somehow gets the outer door open. He slides through the gap, assuming that he's free and can just take the steps (or another elevator). But just after he gets free, he slips and falls into the open elevator shaft.

Very far fetched theory. Why not just push the Emergency Call button or use the phone?

Did he get the outer doors completely open? Most folks would make their escape as soon as there was enough room to wiggle out... and if they slipped, just fall against the half closed elevator doors.

I have never ridden an elevator where the gap between the outer door and the interior of the elevator was wide enough for a grown man to fall through.

re: #85 A Kiwi Infidel
yesssir, yesssir! ok now, boss?

re: #88 grumpy old codger

yesssir, yesssir! ok now, boss?

At ease, soldier.

re: #87 Soona'

I have never ridden an elevator where the gap between the outer door and the interior of the elevator was wide enough for a grown man to fall through.

I agree.

re: #76 Ojoe

Elevators are generally very very very safe.

Ojoe, architect.

And have emergency call buttons and phones.

re: #78 CapeCoddah

Lord, who does that? When those doors open, if you see a big dark space and cables, the car IS NOT THERE. That is from not paying attention, sad as it is.

Apparently backing into the elevator pulling a cart. No one else in building. Door open. Very experienced superintendent. Multiple failures on safety system. Very rare but true.

re: #87 Soona'

I have never ridden an elevator where the gap between the outer door and the interior of the elevator was wide enough for a grown man to fall through.

And nor have I. My theory isn't in Left Field, it's in the parking lot! But someone will throw it out there, I betcha.

re: #87 Soona'

I have never ridden an elevator where the gap between the outer door and the interior of the elevator was wide enough for a grown man to fall through.

While we're on it -- I assume you meant the gap between the elevator body and the interior of the shaft.

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

Older buildings often do not have phones or intercoms to the lobby in their elevators--or anyone in the lobby after hours. I don't know the circumstances of this building, but even with all the retrofitting there I am sure there are such buildings in the Bay Area.

I believe there is also a button to alert the fire department in most elevators. I always see a button with a fireman's helmet on it.

re: #63 Ojoe

I sure enjoy those pictures you post.

re: #90 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Often if an elevator is between floors, opening the door will show you a blank wall anyway; there is the distance between the top of the door below and the ceiling, and then the distance of the floor structure and this is all a blank wall as seen from inside the elevator.

re: #93 experiencedtraveller

Apparently backing into the elevator pulling a cart. No one else in building. Door open. Very experienced superintendent. Multiple failures on safety system. Very rare but true.

Damn, that is horrible.

re: #51 CapeCoddah

He could have used it when he stopped and saw he was between floors. There is also an emergency call button and a telephone in most elevator cars for this purpose. He was murdered.

Most cell phones lose signal in an elevator car. There is a possibility that the emergency phone in the elevator car failed somehow. Many that I have seen have a single button programmed to an emergency response number, if for some reason he was not able to make a contact, he may have felt he had no choice than to attempt to escape. How long was he trapped there?
Having read the whole of zombie's post on this, I must disagree with your conclusion, given the results of the initial investigation. It looks entirely accidental, and until a reliable source points out otherwise, that is what I will believe happened.

No doubt Gavin will be doing everything in his power to uncover the truth.

re: #97 Nylecoj

Thanks are due to the Astronomers at USC.

re: #78 CapeCoddah
Yeah but that elevator in NY (in the story linked to) was in an old building, was manually operated (you have to push open a steel mesh door to get to the cab door and you can see whether or not there is a cab door there just by looking through the outter door) plus there was a long history of elevator violations in that building. Frankly THAT story sounds rather bizarre too.

re: #96 CapeCoddah

I believe there is also a button to alert the fire department in most elevators. I always see a button with a fireman's helmet on it.

Remember this is San Francisco. There's no telling who or what is going to be wearing that fire helmet.

Sorry to go OT, but this is hilarious:

A little Patriotic music

48 hour on the conspiracy theories is a good rule, y'all. That said, RIP.

re: #96 CapeCoddah

I believe there is also a button to alert the fire department in most elevators. I always see a button with a fireman's helmet on it.

I thought that button wasn't for notification of the fire department, but was for firemen to use to override the elevator system so they can manually operate it.

re: #103 realwest

Yeah but that elevator in NY (in the story linked to) was in an old building, was manually operated (you have to push open a steel mesh door to get to the cab door and you can see whether or not there is a cab door there just by looking through the outter door) plus there was a long history of elevator violations in that building. Frankly THAT story sounds rather bizarre too.

Got it. That one does not sound nearly as fishy, though, since he had a cart and was backing into the car.

re: #104 SteveC

Remember this is San Francisco. There's no telling who or what is going to be wearing that fire helmet.

LOL, I will give you that one!

Anyone know how to email Zombi?

re: #107 reine.de.tout

I thought that button wasn't for notification of the fire department, but was for firemen to use to override the elevator system so they can manually operate it.

That apparently is indeed what the "fireman" button is for:

Phase II:
Phase II operation is an override meant for firefighters after Phase I has been activated. Under Phase II operation, firefighters can use a keyswitch to operate the elevator, provided the hoistway is clear of smoke and the elevator has electricity

re: #86 realwest

SF detectives say:

All I can tell you is we have physical evidence he forced his way out of the elevator.

I dont see any drama here.

Very sad, but also extremely suspicious. I'm saying an extra prayer for him, his family and his friends tonight.

So I notice that someone over at the SF Chronicle went through the comments there with a finer comb and deleted a bunch of posts on the article related to this incident.

They were very ugly. Don't know if any were preserved, but it basically had the incident down to ":The Jew had it coming". Those posts were up for much of the day while even more cruel ones were deleted.

re: #107 reine.de.tout

I thought that button wasn't for notification of the fire department, but was for firemen to use to override the elevator system so they can manually operate it.

No, that is what the FD has a key for. There is a keypad in there, too. That is the system override. If it were a button, anyone could override the system.

re: #98 Ojoe

Often if an elevator is between floors, opening the door will show you a blank wall anyway; there is the distance between the top of the door below and the ceiling, and then the distance of the floor structure and this is all a blank wall as seen from inside the elevator.

And there's usually not enough room for a husky fellow to fall between the cab and the "front" wall.

The alternative is if he got ON TOP of the elevator. Aren't there sometimes access panels, that might be open-able from the inside?

re: #104 SteveC

Nope doesn't work that way. We (firemen) have a key that lets us operate the the elevator only.. this is weird.

re: #111 reine.de.tout

I stand corrected, and bow to our genius, Reine.

re: #110 yah

Anyone know how to email Zombi?

See the post.

re: #118 CapeCoddah

I stand corrected, and bow to our genius, Reine.

YOUR genius, Reine!

how sad. he seems like a patriot and great guy.
i'd like to know more abt. the arab language instructor.
if he is a moslem. if he considers himself gay.
he needs to be investigated.

re: #116 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There might be panels like that. It might be hard to hoist yourself up out of the cab without a stepladder though.

BBL

re: #96 CapeCoddah

I believe there is also a button to alert the fire department in most elevators. I always see a button with a fireman's helmet on it.

That is a override system to be used by firefighters in case of a building fire.
A lot of newer buildings the elevator cars return to the lobby whne the alarm goes off. Firefighters have a key that shuts of the elevators call buttons on the floors so the firefighters can operate the car from inside only. This is to prevent the car from opening on the fire floor by accident.

re: #64 stevieray

Many elevators have video cameras in them. Perhaps they are sure it was an accident because they have film of him prying open the doors and climbing out?

Ummm. If he was IN the elevator, he wouldn't have "fallen" down the shaft.

Likewise, if he pried open the door, it would've been against the wall of the shaft or on a floor of the building...

Right...?

Still seems strange that they have video of him standing in front of the elevator, but nothing further!

re: #61 realwest

Why do you think accidental? I mean, if the elevator was shut down, the doors to it should have been locked on every floor (NB, don't know about SF, but in NYC they all now automatically lock on each floor when not in service).

I think accidental because that is what SFPD is saying, and they gave a plausible chain of events that could explain it.

If he was in the elevator, boarded it normally, and got trapped when it stopped, then there is something wrong with what the building manager was saying, because it does not appear to have been taken out of service and secured. Possibly it was not secured correctly, which would be a negligence issue.

re: #123 kcladderman

That is a override system to be used by firefighters in case of a building fire.
A lot of newer buildings the elevator cars return to the lobby whne the alarm goes off. Firefighters have a key that shuts of the elevators call buttons on the floors so the firefighters can operate the car from inside only. This is to prevent the car from opening on the fire floor by accident.

Got it, thanks. In other words, you can't use that button to get some good lookin guys in uniform to come running if you feel the need?

I didn't read it all, but there is no room to fall from an elevator unless you open the door (not the elevator one) the wall supporting it and jump that way. The elevator must be between the floors Good luck, to many safety items to get pass.

re: #126 CapeCoddah

Got it, thanks. In other words, you can't use that button to get some good lookin guys in uniform to come running if you feel the need?

In San Francisco?

/depends upon what you want

I mean, the site is *seriously* faster now, I suppose this moves the bottleneck either back to the database, or to the pipe. Zau!

re: #125 CyanSnowHawk

WOW, that makes no sense?

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey
Well I don't know this building either, but in buildings that are automatically operated, I believe it is standard - at least it is in NYC - that the when the elevator is down for repairs, the elevator cab door can only be opened with a special key. When they are manually operated, as I said in my #103 there is always a steel "mesh" or open grille on the outer door which must be manually pushed open and then the elevator cab door has to be pushed or pulled open. And you'd have to be totally blind not to see that there's no elevator cab there. And there ain't enough room between the steel grille or mesh type doors and the elevator cab door for anyone to slide down through.

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In San Francisco?

/depends upon what you want

Preferably NOT in San Francisco.

re: #124 LeePro

Ummm. If he was IN the elevator, he wouldn't have "fallen" down the shaft.

Likewise, if he pried open the door, it would've been against the wall of the shaft or on a floor of the building...

Right...?

Still seems strange that they have video of him standing in front of the elevator, but nothing further!

If he had tried to escape himself he could have gotten on top of the car. It is hard to determine if he did this without seeing the car. If he did it would be quite apparent what happened.

re: #118 CapeCoddah

I stand corrected, and bow to our genius, Reine.

No, no, I think what I found referred to the override system that has to be used with a key. If there is a button, you may be correct.

re: #131 realwest

The steel messed ones are pretty old or used a freight units.

re: #132 CapeCoddah

Preferably NOT in San Francisco.

*snicker*
Couldn't resist taking advantage of the opening.
Sorry.
(-:

re: #134 reine.de.tout

No, no, I think what I found referred to the override system that has to be used with a key. If there is a button, you may be correct.

By now, you have seen KCladdermans reply, and you were correct.

re: #136 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*snicker*
Couldn't resist taking advantage of the opening.
Sorry.
(-:

LOL, sokay!

How old is this building?

re: #112 experiencedtraveller Respectfully, what they have is evidence that someone forced a way out of the elevator and he wound up dead with dirty hands and probably clothes. Only real way out of one of those things manually is if you can push open the roof of the car to climb up on top of the cab - and there just isn't sufficient room between an elevator and the sides of the shaft for a grown man to fall through.

In this post, zombie said the building is very old.

I know the building well. It's a classic old San Francisco early skyscraper. Everything in it was old.

The elevator may have had none of those modern safety features: phone, call button, automatic locks, etc.

Well sorry y'all but gotta go now. Hope you all have a good evening and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

re: #133 kcladderman

Even getting on top would not work. The gap between the walls and the elevator are very small.

re: #139 Dustoff-507

How old is this building?

built in 1912

re: #141 wrenchwench

Even then... the city has to have safety std's

re: #133 kcladderman

If he had tried to escape himself he could have gotten on top of the car. It is hard to determine if he did this without seeing the car. If he did it would be quite apparent what happened.

I remember getting stuck in an elevator car that had no ceiling. A darkend elevator shaft is a very intimdating and spooky place.

re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Unless there is another elevator shaft right along side?

re: #133 kcladderman

If he had tried to escape himself he could have gotten on top of the car. It is hard to determine if he did this without seeing the car. If he did it would be quite apparent what happened.

Still... "on top of the car" is not the bottom of the shaft.

Not sure what you mean by "...if he did this without seeing the car." Hunh?

re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It does not matter how old the building is. They have to be checked and certified as okay. Somebody messed with this elivator.

re: #140 realwest

Respectfully, what they have is evidence that someone forced a way out of the elevator and he wound up dead with dirty hands and probably clothes. Only real way out of one of those things manually is if you can push open the roof of the car to climb up on top of the cab - and there just isn't sufficient room between an elevator and the sides of the shaft for a grown man to fall through.

There is if it a double shaft.

re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat

built in 1912

And (I read somewhere today) the elevator was refurbished in 1976.

See ya tomorrow, lizards. Stay safe.

Two interesting details from the SFGate story linked at zombietime:

"The first words that come to mind for me when I think of Daniel are 'vibrant' and 'alive,' " said Rabbi Judah Dardik of Beth Jacob Congregation, the orthodox synagogue in Oakland where Kliman was an active member.
[...]
And as a single gay man, Kliman campaigned against Proposition 8, the state constitutional amendment that voters approved Nov. 4 to ban same-sex marriage.

I find these "interesting" not because they have anything to do with Kliman's death, but only because of what they possibly reveal about Kliman and gay Jewish life in SF. To my understanding, it's slightly unusual for gay Jews in America to be both openly gay and remain actively involved in Orthodox life -- gays who were raised in Orthodox backgrounds often switch to non-Orthodox synagogues (not counting those who leave Judaism altogether) because they assume that they'll get the cold shoulder from Orthodox congregations.

re: #150 kcladderman

There is if it a double shaft.

Ahhh. The double shaft. AKA Obama-Biden.

/ back to more tasteful posting

re: #140 realwest

We surely agree its a darn odd way to go. Hopefully the police will clarify everything. Later rw.

I hate elevators. They give me the creeps in every way.

re: #151 karmic_inquisitor

Then it must meet today's safety std's No-way would the city let it operate without them... sue baby sue.

re: #148 LeePro

Still... "on top of the car" is not the bottom of the shaft.

Not sure what you mean by "...if he did this without seeing the car." Hunh?

I meant we can not make any assumptions one way or the other without seeing the car and if we did see the car right after the accident it would be easy to tell if he went out of the top.

OT...I don't know if anyone posted a link to this but...17 Russians were escorted safely out of the Taj Hotel. I guess the jihadis had no quarrel with the Russians?

re: #156 yah

Yeah me too. 60 stories up in one is NO fun. (dark too)

re: #158 kcladderman

Though depending on the car it could be very difficult to open from the inside without a ladder or stool of some kind and tools.

BBL

re: #159 UberInfidel67

No they kill.

Just a quick post from my iPhone. SFgate has the sickest collection of comments from this article. Later.

Well time to call it a night, BEFORE I have to engage the Ironfist Rule. Have a good night. But I will leave you with some music

It is a harsh world out there.

It is hard to know what happened but there are at least a few things that any investigation should look into:

Who was in the building at the time of the accident and who left immediately after the estimated time of death?

How was it that a broken elevator's door, that is supposed to be bolted shut (most big cities are kind of funny about elevator shafts and rules regarding them) open?

His Arabic class, his reason for being in the building, was canceled. Who canceled it? Why?

Why was Kliman apparently the only student not aware of the cancellation?

This is either one of three things: suicide (it happens), accident (they happen too) or murder. Any professional investigation will look at all three possible angles. Absent some radical change in his personal life, Kliman sounds like someone with much to live for.

We may never know. It could be murder but he never saw the trap laid for him. I would want to know if other of his classmates or teachers were members of any Muslim Brotherhood or similarly minded group.

My deepest respects and sympathies to his family and friends.

re: #161 kcladderman

Tools... I've used a few in my times. Someting your not going to have on you

re: #124 LeePro

Ummm. If he was IN the elevator, he wouldn't have "fallen" down the shaft.

Likewise, if he pried open the door, it would've been against the wall of the shaft or on a floor of the building...

Right...?

Still seems strange that they have video of him standing in front of the elevator, but nothing further!

You assume that the distance from the elevator floor to the shaft wall was too small for a man to squeeze through. That is not necessarily the case. The distance from the floor of the elevator to the floor that you step onto when you leave the elevator does not represent the distance from the floor of the elevator to the shaft wall, which is likely much larger.

Zombie - my condolences for your loss. I understand that you knew this person, to a degree. Very tragic, horrific, and under the circumstances, very suspect.

Zombie - Please keep yourself safe. (I can't believe I am writing this. This is the US, land of the free and home of the brave. That I would say "be careful," to a fellow American makes me wary and sad.)

I am so sorry to hear this. My prayers are that a solid answer comes forward so that Dan Kliman's family and friends don't suffer additional pain of not knowing.

re: #158 kcladderman

I meant we can not make any assumptions one way or the other without seeing the car and if we did see the car right after the accident it would be easy to tell if he went out of the top.

Guess I missed mention of an elevator car in any of the reports I read... except for various speculations involving an elevator car...

re: #166 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

It's weird. Only FD and elevator repair carry the special tools to open these doors?

re: #167 Dustoff-507

Tools... I've used a few in my times. Someting your not going to have on you

I am not saying he would not be able to get out without them but some of the cars i have rescued people from it could be very difficult. They are not just hatches that open with a simple push.

From the SF Chronicle:

Dardik, who runs the Beth Jacob Congregation in Oakland where Kliman was a member, also said inspectors had told him Kliman's laptop computer and "a fair amount of money" were found at the scene, effectively ruling out the possibility that Kliman had been robbed.

If the laptop and stuff were found inside the elevator, and it was stuck between floors, then I'm will to grant that the probability of overt homicide decreases.

38 is very young. How very sad. I hope his friends and family will be comforted in their time of need.

re: #130 Dustoff-507

WOW, that makes no sense?

What part?

re: #173 kcladderman

OOO How I know.

No way can he open the door.

Haar mates, May Kliman rest in peace. Nowadays there are enough surveillance camera's to figure out what happened. Unfortunately we have seen several cases where the Jews were singled out for "hits" by Islamic fanatics only to see the murders explained away as insanity by LE officials to the point we don't believe LE anymore in these matters...

re: #164 rawmuse

Just a quick post from my iPhone. SFgate has the sickest collection of comments from this article. Later.

Oh, my! I just looked at some of them on a whim. What anti-Semitic moonbats. It's really kind of sad.

re: #62 experiencedtraveller

OK. Reality check here lizards.

1. An assassin stalled the elevator between floors, waited (on top of the elevator?) for the victim to try and force his way out and then pushed the victim?

2. Elevator system is under repair. Victim manages to call elevator anyway. Elevator gets stuck. Victim tries to escape. Falls.

Yeah. Right. Sorry, unbelievable to me. People just DON'T fall down elevator shafts, I mean, come ON!

re: #171 LeePro

Guess I missed mention of an elevator car in any of the reports I read... except for various speculations involving an elevator car...

Well maybe you should read it again.

If Dan was a contributer to Zombietime, is there any chance we lost a Lizard friend? I just wonder because a lot of us were directed to Zombietime directly from here.

So sad.

re: #176 CyanSnowHawk

Much of it, as a fire fighter myself I've done this type of rescue a few times. To much safety stuff to get passed?

re: #177 HoosierHoops

Congratulations and all the best to your son and his buddies.

re: #177 HoosierHoops

Con-grats

re: #177 HoosierHoops

Congratulations! You must be very relieved.

re: #168 CyanSnowHawk

You assume that the distance from the elevator floor to the shaft wall was too small for a man to squeeze through. That is not necessarily the case. The distance from the floor of the elevator to the floor that you step onto when you leave the elevator does not represent the distance from the floor of the elevator to the shaft wall, which is likely much larger.

Here is an example. There is a picture about 3/5 of the way down the page that shows the frame of the exterior door, taken from below. You can see the shaft wall is about 6-10 inches farther away from where the elevator car would be. That is plenty of room for me to squeeze through if I was determined to do so.

re: #178 Dustoff-507

OOO How I know.

No way can he open the door.

Well the police would be able to tell if it was open.

re: #71 SteveC

There's only one way this could work without foul play:

I would point out that such speculation is pointless without knowing more about the age/architecture of the building and the design of its elevator system (both the cars and the shafts).

Just for an example, I'm pretty sure that ceiling doors openable from inside the elevator car have been against construction codes for several decades now -- but they can still be found in older buildings, of which SF has plenty.

re: #191 kcladderman

Sure hope so. But the buildinng MGT and the FD have some splaning to do. (-:

re: #177 HoosierHoops
I'm glad for you. The Second Brigade, Tenth Mountain is THE most derployed unit in the Army. As far as I know, they're still scheduled. Of course, when the O assumes power, it will all be sweetness and light, so no one will hacw to deploy again.
BTW, If the Hadith calls out for the trees to fight Jews, why should an elevator shaft not want to get in on the fun?
The Guard Unit down here is leaving for Iraq.

re: #182 Russkilitlover

People just DON'T fall down elevator shafts, I mean, come ON!

Start here.

re: #192 loflyer

LOL, ahhh he's not in the US ARMY. 0-:

re: #194 Dustoff-507

Sure hope so. But the buildinng MGT and the FD have some splaning to do. (-:

Where you work? I am on a Kansas City MO heavy rescue.

He rides a bicycle everywhere he goes in SF. He tries to leave little or no carbon footprint. Enters a lobby of a building with a broken elevator and decides to enter the elevator. Many pieces of the puzzle are missing. I'm curious, because of a lack of facts. I'll become suspicious if no other facts are forthcoming.

re: #177 HoosierHoops

Oh HH, I am so happy for you. I got that tight feeling in my chest that I've gotten so often with good news in my circle - I am so proud of your son and hope he is as happy as we are!

re: #168 CyanSnowHawk

You assume that the distance from the elevator floor to the shaft wall was too small for a man to squeeze through. That is not necessarily the case. The distance from the floor of the elevator to the floor that you step onto when you leave the elevator does not represent the distance from the floor of the elevator to the shaft wall, which is likely much larger.

No, Cyan, I didn't "assume" anything! And, yes, I am capable of understanding that the space between the elevator floor and the shaft wall would obviously be larger that that between elevator floor and building floor.

Just for the sake of further speculation, let's say that that distance is, say, 6–12" ...still not enough for a grown man to "fall through" IMHO.

Besides, like everyone else here, I'm just throwing out possible answers to the bazzillion unexplained questions...

re: #198 kcladderman

Now retired. Mukilteo FD Fire Medic...

If you are in an elevator car, the emergency exit is on the roof of the car. If you climb out of the car, you are standing on the top of the car. It is very difficult to fall down from that position, as the car is beneath you.

re: #196 experiencedtraveller

Start here.

I can see accidents with elevator or building workers, but elevator users? No! I hope the SF police have some remnants of intelligence and get this "accident" solved.

re: #186 Dustoff-507

Much of it, as a fire fighter myself I've done this type of rescue a few times. To much safety stuff to get passed?

The reports that zombie quotes are light on those details. I would suspect that Kliman found a way around them, not an impossible task, but possibly difficult.

re: #202 Dustoff-507

Now retired. Mukilteo FD Fire Medic...

Medic ? now thats a high pressure job. Hope you are enjoying your retirement you earned it.

re: #198 kcladderman

You name it, I've done it. I was also a fire medic for the city of San Diego Sta 21 (AT the beach baby) LOL

re: #197 Dustoff-507

LOL, ahhh he's not in the US ARMY. 0-:

I guess Hoopster or his son going to tear me a new one, mates! My mistake!

All this brings to mind old "Red" Ken Livingstone who used to be mayor of London, England.
A few years back an anti-Iraq war rally/parade was planned and different groups got permission to march in it.
A gay group marched but some Muslims beat them up and threatened them with death should they ever see them again.
The next year the same type of rally/parade was again planned and the homosexual organizer went to "Red" Ken and reminded him about the threats and asked the Muslim groups to be dis-invited.
But "Red" Ken looked at both groups and tallied the votes.
He dis-invited the gays.

Anybody else remember that?

Lib leaders, like Mayor Newsome, are very pragmatic.
If it came down to it, he'd probably choose not to point the finger at Muslims. It'll be classified as an accident officially soon.

re: #203 Kenneth

If you are in an elevator car, the emergency exit is on the roof of the car. If you climb out of the car, you are standing on the top of the car. It is very difficult to fall down from that position, as the car is beneath you.

You fall over the side. The top of elevator cars are not just flat top there is quite a bit of mechanical and electrical equipment up there. If he had climbed on top it would be very easy to trip and fall in the dark.

re: #206 kcladderman

If you click on a avatar you see what I use to do. I still work a a rescue medic for search & rescue in our mountains. I get to fly in an old HUEY. (-:

OT:

Rosie is dancing on the Rockefeller Tree Lighting show now.

Oh, my poor, poor eyes.

Photo of the building is here:
[Link: www.noehill.com...]

re: #210 kcladderman

very easy to trip and fall in the dark.

Very true.

re: #183 WrathofG-d

Um dude, there is WAYYY to much personal information and Troop movement in the post. (as far as I know)

What personal information Wrath? Deployments are not top secret..It's when you get in country that the wraps go on..
Go to marineparents.com to track deployments...and read what the marines post.. I would never divulge secret troop movements...
Jordan is going to Japan! look it up bro..
Snoopy Dance! Damn I'm happy!

re: #203 Kenneth

If you are in an elevator car, the emergency exit is on the roof of the car. If you climb out of the car, you are standing on the top of the car. It is very difficult to fall down from that position, as the car is beneath you.

It's not too difficult to imagine that from there, if he was unable to open the exterior doors in the shaft, or perhaps could not reach the next higher door, he attempted to climb down the shaft to get to a lower door, and slipped.

re: #213 mean Gene

Cool... but don't be in one during a shaker.

re: #207 Dustoff-507

You name it, I've done it. I was also a fire medic for the city of San Diego Sta 21 (AT the beach baby) LOL

You still in SD? I live in Poway. Know a couple FFs in the area as well (Federal guys).

re: #213 mean Gene

Photo of the building is here:
[Link: www.noehill.com...]

The looks like the Ironside building, whatever happened to Raymond Burr?

re: #211 Dustoff-507

If you click on a avatar you see what I use to do. I still work a a rescue medic for search & rescue in our mountains. I get to fly in an old HUEY. (-:

Cool. I have a friend who retired a few years ago he flew hueys in Vietnam .
He actually ended up marrying a real life haight ashbury free love anti war hippie. She is still quite moonbatty today. At his retirement party we got to talking about their pasts. One guy ask his wife how a hippy ever met a war mongering baby killer like Mark. I replied she spit on him at the air port everyone but her laughed.

re: #168 CyanSnowHawk

You assume that the distance from the elevator floor to the shaft wall was too small for a man to squeeze through. That is not necessarily the case. The distance from the floor of the elevator to the floor that you step onto when you leave the elevator does not represent the distance from the floor of the elevator to the shaft wall, which is likely much larger.

re: #190 CyanSnowHawk

Here is an example. There is a picture about 3/5 of the way down the page that shows the frame of the exterior door, taken from below. You can see the shaft wall is about 6-10 inches farther away from where the elevator car would be. That is plenty of room for me to squeeze through if I was determined to do so.

Uh oh. Now you're quoting and arguing with yourself...

I'll be going on to dinner now, so as not to encumber you.

;D

re: #215 HoosierHoops

What personal information Wrath? Deployments are not top secret..It's when you get in country that the wraps go on..
Go to marineparents.com to track deployments...and read what the marines post.. I would never divulge secret troop movements...
Jordan is going to Japan! look it up bro..
Snoopy Dance! Damn I'm happy!

Many nights of good sleep for you in your near future my friend I am happy for you.

re: #222 LeePro

re: #168 CyanSnowHawk

Uh oh. Now you're quoting and arguing with yourself...

I'll be going on to dinner now, so as not to encumber you.

;D

I'm supporting my argument, not trying to counter it.
;p

re: #223 kcladderman

Many nights of good sleep for you in your near future my friend I am happy for you.

Thank you so much...Sometimes I don't know how I would stay sane without the fellowship of the lizards

re: #219 CyanSnowHawk

Not anymore, Moved to WA state in 1990. Can up to see a friend who worked for Boeing. Came apond a car vs child wreck.. met the Chief of the FD. They need a medic and the rest is history.

I know Poway well. Bet you were busy during your last fire storm.

Well night all.

re: #221 kcladderman

LOL,,, o gezzz you didn't!

re: #224 CyanSnowHawk

I'm supporting my argument, not trying to counter it.
;p

¦·Þ backatcha!

dinner... bbiaw
;D

Me too, good night all. (-:

I was once on an elevator that got stuck between floors. I managed to open the inside door and then jiggle the works on the exterior door to unlock it. Then I (and the other 10 people on the car) were faced with the prospect of jumping down 4-5 feet to lobby floor without swinging or slipping backward and falling down the elevator shaft.

So while I can see from firsthand experience that it's plausible the late Mr. Kliman did accidentally fall, I agree with others that it is still suspicious. For one thing I find it odd that the SF detective was so overly intent on it being reported that it was an accident, telling reporters "Underscore that, bold it and print it with an exclamation point.” It's almost as if he were trying to avoid one of those violent, San Francisco-style mass temper tantrums. Yet he didn't point out what evidence he had. If it were 100% certain that it was an accident, what harm would there be in saying what the evidence was?

I don't see a conspiracy but I have a unique point of view. I was in a building where the doors to the elevator opened, I was looking down the hall and if a women standing there didn't scream and grab my arm I would have walked into the elvator shaft and fallen to my death. It can just happen. Who knows why.
"But for the grace of god I go"

re: #119 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I checked the post and his usual email link was not there. I know it, but would like some other way to send it to you than this thread. Ideas?

re: #226 Dustoff-507

Not anymore, Moved to WA state in 1990. Can up to see a friend who worked for Boeing. Came apond a car vs child wreck.. met the Chief of the FD. They need a medic and the rest is history.

I know Poway well. Bet you were busy during your last fire storm.

Loaded the trailer and headed to the rental in Spring Valley, then to my sister's place in South Park when the Southern fires started getting close to SV.

re: #27 So?

Did he have a cell phone? Good question Savage.
Why didn't he use it? Good question Savage.

This was cold premeditated murder.

Cell phones do not work in elevator shafts

re: #110 yah
Some of his other articles have a link, but you have to read the whole essay usually. Go to the left side bar here and bring up his essays. I emailed him about the essay on his research on the WU. I'd say it's no more than a month old. Good luck.

California Elevator Safety

California Code re emergency phones

Building owners, building manager violated safe practices. There should have been a note to use the stairs.

If class was canceled he was probably there to have a lovers meeting. Which would mean the lover was there also.

re: #239 hazzyday
wow!

Since he probably had many enemies, including extremely fervent jihadi enemies, the logical first guess would be that this was a murder. He may have been lured to his death by somebody -- say a romantic lure -- and the trap sprung by somebody else.

But the most puzzling thing of all is that in the absence of an investigation into whether there was any foul play, it is being ruled out ahead of time, so that no evidence that may prove foul play is being collected. Clearly somebody does not want to have a murder case on his hands, so it is being ruled out in advance.

What this reminds me of is the mysterious death of the head of the JDL, a guy by the name of Rubin, who was killed by slitting his own throat Muslim style while he was in detention in a prison with many Muslim prisoners, and all the time protesting his own innocence. On the day that he was supposed to get a hearing, which he welcomed, his throat was slit in public, and it was ruled a suicide, and mysteriously there were no videotapes of the incident although it was all very public.

The conclusion is that when a person has a lot of enemies, and enemies who may misbehave, it may be considered prudent just to forget about the fact that the person is murdered. It saves a lot of work that will not be appreciated by the enemies of that person.

But it is malfeasance.

What Buzz alluded to early on up thread, is the very first thing which came to mind as soon as I heard of this story.

There is just too much that does not fit together.

From the looks of it, this guy was a walking mathematical calculation. He definitely had a control personality. Everything he did had a purpose, it was measured, and concise. Deliberate. Considering the accident angle in this, given the fact this guy was also a physician, seems to depart from his mold.

It does not add up.

re: #221 kcladderman

Cool. I have a friend who retired a few years ago he flew hueys in Vietnam .
He actually ended up marrying a real life haight ashbury free love anti war hippie. She is still quite moonbatty today. At his retirement party we got to talking about their pasts.

Heh! And people sometimes ask me and my sister how our parents have stayed married so long, seeing that my mom is Catholic and my dad is an atheist -- in March, they're going on a cruise of the Amazon to celebrate their 40th anniversary!

It helps that my dad has never been one of those pushy, proselytizing atheists -- or if he ever was, he got that out of his system long before I was born. And Catholics tend not to proselytize, either. And of course, I'm sure it has also helped their marriage that they're both retired military officers, and are both tremendously anal-retentive. ;-) My sister and I are the Haight-Ashbury hippies in comparison with our parents (but only by contrast with them).

If the police were interested in cracking this case, the first thing that they would be looking into is to find out who lured him to this dangerous spot at a time when the place was deserted -- check the email messages, text messages, and phone messages that he received. But the lure is not the person who sprung the trap, the lure is just bait. Then the police should question and investigate the lure to find out her acquaintances, in order to learn who was the person who sprung the trap.

Fatwa?

Or did the same thing happen to him as happened to Baron Sevan's aunt? What a coinky-dink.

If he was stuck in the Elevator? Wouldn't he have rung the elevator alarm bell first? Before trying to get out. I'm assuming he wasn't the only person in a 5 story building? Why didn't anyone hear the bell?

Good evening.

In market news, the DOW today dropped way down, then went way up, then went negative again and ultimately finished 172 points up.

This evening, the futures are pointing down slightly while the Nikkei is up 49 points and the Hang Seng is up 262.

The Big 3 auto makers are now looking for a total of about $34 billion from the taxpayers. Chrysler really did not want to provide much information as they are a privately held firm. I don't think that will go over real well in D.C.

My guess is the auto makers will get some "loans" to string this along for a few months tha may or may not ever be paid back.

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

There is a "Queers for Palestine" group in San Francisco.

To follow up on the "Queers for Palestine" angle, here's a repost of a comment I just made у Зомби (u Zombi, which is Russian for "at Zombie's place", while у Чарлза, u Tcharlza, would be "at Charles's place," etc.):

Zombie — In case you missed it, this photo from a SanFran blog linked at LGF shows Dr. Kliman in a blue T-shirt while a sour-faced harpy in a black T-shirt stands behind him. Look carefully at the woman's shirt and you’ll see why I call her a "sour-faced harpy" — that’s the logo of Q.U.I.T., also known as "Queers for Palestine."

And by the way, here's another photo of Kliman and the sour-faced harpy, from a different angle, so you can see who Kliman was yelling at.

And from the same "progressive" website that I found via Google, here's yet another photo of Kliman from that same day, showing some of his other passions -- apparently the Hebrew on his T-shirt says "Jerusalem is for bicycles."

And here, by the way, is a direct link to that news article at the "progressive" site, with the headline Sexist pro-Israel Activist Dan Kliman Attacks QUIT Activists At Palestine Protest.

_{It seems to me that they misspelled "Sexy Pro-Israel Activist" -- I could do without the vegetarianism, but otherwise he was very much my type... WOOF!}

re: #16 WrathofG-d

Queers For "Palestine" were unavailable for comment.

Actually, they were very available for comment. Dan hated Queers for Palestine even more than I did. Dan's detractors since his death have been frequently linking to this photo essay of Dan screaming at the Queers for Palestine harpies, and they're using it to show what an aggresssive person he was. But I see those pictures and smile, because Dan was the only person who told those QfP assholes how assholish they really were. He had absolutely no patience for them and their suicidal-let-us-take-you-with-us into-the-gas-chamber attitude.

The "accident" theory stinks. I deal with elevators on a daily basis and the notion that he fell to the bottom of the shaft trying to climb out between floors is ridiculous. If he was stuck in the elevator car the only possible way out was up through the roof and that is highly unlikely. If he made it out on to the roof of the car, he'd be stuck there.

It takes a special key to open elevator doors when the car is between floors. If I were investigating this case I'd be casting a hairy eyeball on the maintenance crew of the building.

re: #249 Throbert McGee

Our comments overlapped. I just linked to the full photo essay and Dan and the Queers for Palestine /QUIT.

re: #39 hellosnackbar

I hope the SFPD are putting a lot of effort into investigating this one.

You're joking, right?

They've decided it was an accident. All effort at this point is going into proving that theory. All other details are being excluded and ignored.

re: #45 realwest

Whoa, this whole thing stinks to high heaven, but I'm also not exactly overjoyed to hear he was an "occasional zombietime contributor" either!

Why not? I don't get it.

He contributed to at least 10 different zombietime reports. I saw him at nearly every Israel-themed protest (though never identified myself to him). He contributed more photos to my site than any other photographer.

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

I noted this upthread but I think it bears repeating.

On thread after thread here, we have seen calls by imams and other Muslim religious authorities to execute gays by throwing them to their death from a great height, such as a cliff or tall building.

Throwing someone down an elevator shaft would certainly qualify as a Koran-style "gay execution"--with the added advantage that the body would be nowhere near as readily discovered at the bottom of a shaft than it would on the sidewalk.

You may very well be right. However, I think the SF cops will wrap up this case as an accident, and we will never know.

re: #57 Iron Fist

I wouldn't expect that. There's nothing here that looks like it is a Federal issue.

Cal/OSHA is involved, because a malfuncioning elevator with easily openable doors is most definitely a public safety issue.

re: #68 realwest

That's why I asked about CCTV in the elevator cab - in NYC you can't hardly find a building more than 6 stories tall without CCTV's - even in the Commerical building I used to teach in (which was all of 10 floors) we had CCTV's down to the lobby - with videotape) in every elevator cab.

The building where this happened, the Sharon Building, is a turn-of-the-century early SF office building, and its elevators were old. I'd doubt they had cameras.

Elevator doors on each floor can be opened easily with a specific tool , thereby exposing the empty shaft . The doors were opened and he was pushed ... there were more than one murderer , possibly three ...proving that will be another matter .

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

So, just as one looks first at gangs when one finds someone who has been killed "gangland style," it would make sense for the police in this case to start looking in the Muslim community to find the killer of someone who was homosexual and whose death appears to fit the profile of a "Muslim style" killing of a homosexual.

See this picture Dan took of Palestinians at a rally? That was par for the course at every rally. That's how they felt about him, every single time they saw him. Everty single Arab and Muslim in the Bay Area hated Dan Kliman with a passion, and frequently yelled threats at him (often in Arabic, but sometimes in English). You'd be hard-pressed to find a politically active Muslim in the Bay Area who didn't have a motivation to kill him.

It's like an Agatha Christie mystery, but with 5,000 suspects instead of 5.

re: #87 Soona'

I have never ridden an elevator where the gap between the outer door and the interior of the elevator was wide enough for a grown man to fall through.

That was my feeling too. very hard to visualize how he could had fallen, without doing something spectacularly dangerous and foolish. Which is not his personality.

IIRC...this is the very same fate that befell the Aunt of the UN official involved in hiding oil-for-palaces money. The UN bureaucrat scammer said some huge sum of money was a gift from/to his Auntie. Then Auntie suffers sudden death by fall into an elevator shaft, nicely tying up the loose ends.
I'll google that bit and come back with the story.
Ain't technology and the internet magic? The most powerful technology ever devised?

Anyone remember Jason Kosower?

re: #139 Dustoff-507

How old is this building?

1912, I think.

here's that story regarding the other 'accident' I mentioned:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

The actual head of the Oil-for-Food racket, Kofi sidekick Benon Sevan, has resigned, having hitherto insisted that a mysterious six-figure sum in his bank account was a gift from his elderly aunt, a lady of modest means who lived in a two-room flat back in Cyprus. Paul Volcker's investigators had planned to confirm with auntie her nephew's version of events, but unfortunately she fell down an elevator shaft and died. It now seems likely that the windfall had less to do with Mr Sevan's late aunt and more to do with his soliciting of oil allocations for another company.

...You'd think that by now respect for the UN would be plummeting faster than Benon Sevan's auntie down that lift shaft. After all, these aren't peripheral figures or minor departments. They reach right into the heart of UN policy on two of the critical issues of the day - Iraq and North Korea - or four, if you're one of those Guardian types who's hot for Kyoto and peacekeeping. Most of the Ghanaian diplomatic corps and their progeny seem to have directorships at companies with UN contracts and/or Saddamite oil options. I had no idea being a Ghanaian ambassador's son opened so many doors, and nor did they till Kofi ascended to his present eminence.

re: #166 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

It is hard to know what happened but there are at least a few things that any investigation should look into:
...
Why was Kliman apparently the only student not aware of the cancellation?

VERY good question, and one that has been bothering me as well.

This is either one of three things: suicide (it happens), accident (they happen too) or murder. Any professional investigation will look at all three possible angles. Absent some radical change in his personal life, Kliman sounds like someone with much to live for.

No way in a million years it was suicide. He was scheduled to leave on a trip to Israel 36 hours after he died. He loved life.

We may never know. It could be murder but he never saw the trap laid for him. I would want to know if other of his classmates or teachers were members of any Muslim Brotherhood or similarly minded group.

Rumor has it that every single other member of the class was either a crazed anti-Israel moonbat or a politically active (i.e. anti-Israel) Muslim. He was in a den of people who hated him.

re: #185 UberInfidel67

If Dan was a contributer to Zombietime, is there any chance we lost a Lizard friend? I just wonder because a lot of us were directed to Zombietime directly from here.

Dan was an LGF reader/lurker, but as far as I know, he never caught an open registration, so never became a registered lizardoid. But he did tell me of things he read here, so he was sort of a LGFer.

re: #263 zombie

1912, I think.

Yep, I looked it up earlier and that's the date I found.

Anyway, Zombie, thanks as always for your work in covering this. (And as always -- keep on keeping a low profile!)

Interesting. Read this and the comments, especially the last few...and look at the photos taken (and linked) by David.

/..sorry if this has already been posted, I haven't read every comment here.