Romania Removes Theory of Evolution from Schools

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Wed Dec 3, 2008 at 5:14 pm PST • Views: 161

The country of Romania takes a big step backward: Romania removes theory of evolution from school curriculum.

Romania’s withdrawal of the theory of evolution from the school curriculum could be evidence of a growing conservative tendency in teaching. Evolution has been removed from the school curriculum in a move which, pressure groups argue, distorts children’s understanding of how the world came into being.

Meanwhile, religious studies classes continue to tell Romanian children that God made the world in seven days.

The theory of the Origin of Species and the evolution of humans is no longer present in the compulsory curriculum, through a nationwide decision made under the previous Government in 2006. Before the change, Darwin’s theory was taught to pupils aged 18 or 19 years old. This was also in the curriculum during the Communist period of dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

Information on natural selection, how fish turned into lizards and, more or less, a summary of the first 4.5 billion years of the world until man walked the earth is now optional.

“We don’t teach the theory of evolution anymore,” said one 38 year-old Bucharest-based biology teacher.

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1 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:16:35pm

Here we go.

2 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:17:16pm

...tomorrow they will all be mouth breathers, and running around not being able to do anything...


( That is probably a major karma killer)

3 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:17:20pm

Just couldn't resist that *** post

4 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:17:42pm

re: #1 Bubblehead II

Here we go.

You avatar shows a launch...

5 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:17:56pm

Brilliant. That just sucks.

6 Racer X  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:18:32pm
“We don’t teach the theory of evolution anymore,” said one 38 year-old Bucharest-based biology teacher.

Did some new scientific information void the data?

7 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:19:16pm

re: #6 Racer X

Did some new scientific information void the data?

Science is perfect. Nothing "voids" the data. Sheesh!

8 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:19:25pm

re: #6 Racer X

Yes, Genesis

9 Russkilitlover  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:19:44pm

"The country of Romania takes a big step backwards"? From what? They brought down their dictator and his wife, but after that, they haven't exactly moved to the forefront of progressive government. They seem like they are still serfs.

10 MJ  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:19:53pm
“We don’t teach the theory of evolution anymore,” said one 38 year-old Bucharest-based biology teacher."

Ex-biology teacher.

11 clgood  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:19:54pm
evidence of a growing conservative tendency in teaching

Doh. There's nothing "conservative" about it. I hate it when "journalists" slap "conservative" on anybody who happens to be doing the wrong thing. I remember how the most extreme left-wing of the Soviet Union always got called "conservative" in the press. Later it was the Taliban. Neither is remotely "conservative".

Poor Romanian kids, though.

12 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:20:06pm

re: #4 jcm

Why yes, it does.

13 SpartacusDk  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:20:41pm

So we are back to God created Earth in 4004 BC? I wish we could have been spared the creation of Ceausescu. I has messed up the Romanians' minds it seems.

14 Outrider  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:20:45pm

wonder how many hatchlings will step on it tonight and get whacked?

15 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:21:37pm

At least Romania hasn't removed math from the curriculum. They punch way above their weight in that arena.

16 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:22:08pm

Um...

Information on natural selection, how fish turned into lizards and, more or less, a summary of the first 4.5 billion years of the world until man walked the earth is now optional.

optional, removed, whatever!

Ok i'll be back.

17 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:22:18pm

re: #12 Bubblehead II

Why yes, it does.

George Washington class?

18 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:22:21pm

re: #12 Bubblehead II

But I didn't launch first.

But I do need to get out of here. Time to cook dinner.

L8R

19 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:22:23pm
"The Romanian state, whether it intends or not, offers pupils a unique perspective on the world, the religious one, without any critical scientific or philosophical offset," argues Cernea.

Kind of like the ummah.

20 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:23:48pm

Sorry to OT so soon, but I cannot resist. Picked this up from a bloggers comment at The New York Observer

"After running as the antidote to Mr. Bush’s foreign policy, it’s not even clear anymore whether Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton will be able to do anything significantly different from the Bush administration in the world’s most intense hot spot."

Barry Hussie Obamers is in over his little garlic head! No wonder he is keeping Bush's Secretary of Defense and has surrounded himself with centrist highly experienced folks! He's like: ma-ma, da-da help me! I bet he will just be comfortable in the mcee/actor role and let others run the show for the American people!

Garlic Head, huh? Oh, the next four years are gonna be a riot.

21 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:24:08pm

re: #17 jcm

Not sure the picture is kinda vague. But it matches my nic.

You know I am trying to leave... :-)

22 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:24:33pm

It is sad to see the minds of children kicked around like footballs.

23 callahan23  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:24:46pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Kind of like the ummah.

I'd like to know how that is going to get down with the EU harmonization.

24 Russkilitlover  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:24:51pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Kind of like the ummah.

We (the West) tend to look on Romania as a progressive nation, especially since they dispatched their dictator with such fanfare; however, there is nothing in Romanian recent politics to indicate that this once Soviet-backward country has actually joined the 21st century.

25 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:25:06pm

re: #21 Bubblehead II

Not sure the picture is kinda vague. But it matches my nic.

You know I am trying to leave... :-)

Later!

26 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:25:40pm

re: #22 Ojoe

It is sad to see the minds of children kicked around like footballs.

It is criminal.

27 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:25:57pm
28 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:26:37pm

re: #24 Russkilitlover

We (the West) tend to look on Romania as a progressive nation, especially since they dispatched their dictator with such fanfare; however, there is nothing in Romanian recent politics to indicate that this once Soviet-backward country has actually joined the 21st century.

My dad's made several humanitarian / mission trips to Romanian. Once your out of the cities, its still 3rd world.

29 yah  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:27:36pm
30 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:27:42pm
Biology has been cut from two hours to one of teaching per week for the final two years in many high schools. In place of evolution, kids are taught more about human ecology and the environment

So- ditching evolution leaves more time for environmentalism- that might be news to some who think Charles is focusing on the wrong scientific issue in the classrooms.

31 Russkilitlover  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:28:06pm

OT - Wow! Thanks, Charles! This site moves like...Greased Lightning!

32 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:29:03pm

re: #23 callahan23

I'd like to know how that is going to get down with the EU harmonization.

Creationism in the EU is slowly rising- thanks in part to islamic creationists like Harun Yahya.

33 Kenneth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:29:09pm

Meanwhile,

NATO ministers have reiterated their backing for the planned US missile shield in Eastern Europe.

34 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:29:25pm

OT:

I know it's probably been said before... but I am LOVING this new server...
It's SUPER quick!

35 Kenneth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:29:35pm

link

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

All 26 NATO allies signed the statement backing the deployment.

36 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:29:50pm

Goodnight all, gotta get up at 1am to take a client to Manhattan for a meeting.

37 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:30:00pm

re: #30 Sharmuta

So- ditching evolution leaves more time for environmentalism- that might be news to some who think Charles is focusing on the wrong scientific issue in the classrooms.

Creationsion, Gorebul Warming, and Greenism (neo-socialism).
A trifecta!

38 Throbert McGee  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:30:01pm

Hmmm, I notice that neither buzzsawmonkey nor Occasional Reader have posted to this thread yet, which can mean only one thing:

They're off racking their brains trying to come up with a good "Numa Numa" pun about creationism/ID.

Me, I gots nuthin'...

39 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:31:07pm

They won't remove evolution from the Romanian schools. Let's focus on more important matters!
/Romanian right-wingers a week ago

40 Racer X  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:31:08pm

re: #29 yah

OT
The perfect Christmas gift for your moonbat friends

I'm buying my moonbat friends carbon offsets!

Merry Christmas! Here's your "feelgood" certificate.

41 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:31:38pm

re: #30 Sharmuta

Excellent point!

42 callahan23  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:31:47pm

I've heard and read about that some. Yet no pupil, student or any other involved in education in Germany could give me any confirmation.

43 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:32:03pm

Back to the topic at hand.

For those of you faithful Christians who need a very well thought out work that balances Evolution & Creation (not ism), I highly recommend Cardinal Christoph Schönborn's Chance or Purpose.

To my fellow Prods, the Roman Church has got this one right.

44 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:32:54pm

But seriously. This new web server is da bomb. At peak traffic time today with more 3,000 online, the load average never got above 0.87. Typical load average for that kind of activity with the old server was in the neighborhood of 4 to 6.

Lower numbers are better, and that's a hell of a percentage.

45 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:33:14pm

re: #36 CapeCoddah

Goodnight all, gotta get up at 1am to take a client to Manhattan for a meeting.

Maybe I'll see ya there!
*gives creepy smile*

46 vxbush  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:33:38pm

re: #44 Charles

But seriously. This new web server is da bomb. At peak traffic time today with more 3,000 online, the load average never got above 0.87. Typical load average for that kind of activity with the old server was in the neighborhood of 4 to 6.

Lower numbers are better, and that's a hell of a percentage.

In short: good toys for Christmas!

47 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:33:39pm

re: #44 Charles

But seriously. This new web server is da bomb. At peak traffic time today with more 3,000 online, the load average never got above 0.87. Typical load average for that kind of activity with the old server was in the neighborhood of 4 to 6.

Lower numbers are better, and that's a hell of a percentage.

What type of server, specs?

48 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:33:57pm

Evolution, Schmevolution! Our little gymnast girls must not be distracted by such nonsense!

49 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:33:59pm

re: #28 jcm

My dad's made several humanitarian / mission trips to Romanian. Once your out of the cities, its still 3rd world.

and in the cities you find packs of dogs running wild in the parks and 8 yr old runaways huffing paint in the subways.

50 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:35:07pm

re: #44 Charles

But seriously. This new web server is da bomb. At peak traffic time today with more 3,000 online, the load average never got above 0.87. Typical load average for that kind of activity with the old server was in the neighborhood of 4 to 6.

Lower numbers are better, and that's a hell of a percentage.

But the most important question: is it shiny?

51 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:35:18pm

The bottleneck at LGF has always been the web server. The new one is a Xeon quad core 3.4, with hyperthreading.

The DB server has always been a quad core.

52 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:35:23pm
53 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:35:37pm

re: #49 Thanos

and in the cities you find packs of dogs running wild in the parks and 8 yr old runaways huffing paint in the subways.

Thank God for America.
I say that several times a day.
I spent 10 years in Iran, 2 out in a village, the mud hut variety.
Thank God for America.

54 Kenneth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:35:52pm

re: #51 Charles

Happy hopped-up hamsters!

55 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:36:11pm

This new server is so fast it bans you before you even finish typing the naughty message and press POST !

56 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:36:23pm

re: #49 Thanos

and in the cities you find packs of dogs running wild in the parks and 8 yr old runaways huffing paint in the subways.

Maybe we could make a deal with the Russians ... you can have Rumania back if you promise to leave Georgia and Ukraine alone.

57 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:36:25pm

Here's an enlightening comment someone wrote after the article:

Here’s the real laugh. Creationists have totally missed their own astonishing biblical heresy, that’s right heresy, in invoking the concepts of “accidental evolution” and “blind” chance. According to the Bible (Pv. 16:33) God controls all chance and there are no accidents. That’s a pretty big Ooopsie! You might enjoy this from the current Google News listings:


Intelligent Design Rules Out God's Sovereignty Over Chance

[Link: www.gather.com...]

“What proponents of so-called intelligent design have cynically omitted in their polemic is that according to Biblical tradition, chance has always been considered God's choice as well.”

58 Outrider  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:36:39pm

first one now at bat

59 Kenneth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:37:20pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Evolution is not the other side of an argument with the Bible. It's a completely different discussion.

60 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:38:22pm

re: #41 Basho

Thanks, Basho- it's all over the last thread on ID. "Global Warming! Global Warming is the problem! That's the religion they're teaching our kids!"

First- this reminds me of the fascist threads when they first started. "Islamists! Islamists are the threat!" As if that somehow meant we didn't need to worry about nazis.

Second- if the children are given a proper scientific education, then the scientific method will correct the flaws in global warming. We don't stand a chance of correcting issues within science if science isn't taught.

61 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:38:23pm

re: #58 Outrider

first one now at bat

Swingin' for the moon.

62 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:38:25pm

IMHO the problem the Creationist has is that he cannot imagine a God unconstrained by Time & Space.

63 VegasRick  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:38:34pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Hmmm. I certainly think On The Origin of Species should be taught but only alongside The Holy Bible in order to present both sides of the argument.

A few questions I have are:

(1) Why hasn't the tuatara changed in the past 140 million years even though it's alleged to be the fastest evolving animal?

(2) Why haven't new species emerged with intelligence?

(3) In what way have sharks and echinoids evolved in the past 400 hundred million years?


If I were you I would put on a helmet!

64 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:39:34pm

re: #59 Kenneth

Evolution is not the other side of an argument with the Bible. It's a completely different discussion.

Thank you.

65 FrogMarch  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:40:03pm

re: #60 Sharmuta

We don't stand a chance of correcting issues within science if science isn't taught.

You got it!

66 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:41:06pm

re: #60 Sharmuta

Thanks, Basho- it's all over the last thread on ID. "Global Warming! Global Warming is the problem! That's the religion they're teaching our kids!"

First- this reminds me of the fascist threads when they first started. "Islamists! Islamists are the threat!" As if that somehow meant we didn't need to worry about nazis.

Second- if the children are given a proper scientific education, then the scientific method will correct the flaws in global warming. We don't stand a chance of correcting issues within science if science isn't taught.

AGW is also one of the new directions Discovery institute is going, they didn't get support for attacking evolution alone, so they are now bundling. The other field they are trying to move into is the Neurosciences since there's still a lot of murk in that field.

67 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:41:08pm

re: #65 FrogMarch

You got it!

I try.

68 Kenneth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:41:29pm

Is Obama Killing his Honeymoon?


With Clintonites in his Cabinet, forgiveness for Lieberman, and creeping signs of centrism -- progressives may be on the verge of panic.

Reality bites, moonbat.

69 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:41:46pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Number one I'll leave for Salamantis later...

Number two: Many creatures are intelligent in their own way.

Number three: When a creature is perfectly suited to its niche evolutionary pressures are low.

70 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:41:47pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

well, *that*was quick...

gamey buttock, anyone? %-)

71 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:41:55pm

re: #62 unreconstructed rebel

IMHO the problem the Creationist has is that he cannot imagine a God unconstrained by Time & Space.

I brought the time aspect up a few ID threads back. Correct, it's very difficult to get folks out of the mindset God existed an infinite amount of time before creation and will exist and infinite amount of time into the future, into one where God is in another timescape from ours.

72 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:42:20pm

It's why the discovery institute shills try to change the subject in these threads to AGW instead of trying to defend ID.

73 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:42:27pm

re: #66 Thanos

AGW is also one of the new directions Discovery institute is going, they didn't get support for attacking evolution alone, so they are now bundling. The other field they are trying to move into is the Neurosciences since there's still a lot of murk in that field.

So I've seen. Very clever and sneaky, imo. This way they look like good guys for questioning science and it gives them a piggy back to question evolution.

74 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:42:47pm

re: #70 redc1c4

well, *that*was quick...

gamey buttock, anyone? %-)

Looks like he got the stick.

75 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:42:47pm

re: #72 Thanos

It's why the discovery institute shills try to change the subject in these threads to AGW instead of trying to defend ID.

I agree!

76 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:43:29pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Hmmm. I certainly think...

(that's debateable)

(3) In what way have sharks and echinoids evolved in the past 400 hundred million years?

sharks are the perfect killing machine in their environment... what pressure is there for them to change?

(not that you can respond to this... %-)

77 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:43:30pm

re: #57 Basho

God controls all chance and there are no accidents.

The good Cardinal I cited earlier points out that it's awful hard to hold that view when contemplating DNA. Whole bunches of trash, mistakes and downright chaos.

78 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:43:35pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

79 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:43:43pm

re: #33 Kenneth

Meanwhile,

NATO ministers have reiterated their backing for the planned US missile shield in Eastern Europe.

Great! And Obama has already announced he won't deploy the ABM's previously in his campaign. Obama is getting a strong dose of reality and I suspect many of his statements made during the campaign will never reach fruition. Lest anyone doubt what is going on with the ABM's being deployed to Poland. The Bush administration states the ABM's are to shield Europe against the rogue state Iran's missiles armed with WMD's. However if that was the case the base should be built nearer to Iran, perhaps Malta, Crete or Italy would be good sites for ABM defense against Iran. Four Arleigh Burkes's with SM-3's stationed in the Med would be a better solution for the Iranian problem and I suspect we will see deployments of the 'cans into the med for this purpose. The Polish ABM site is optimized for a defense against Russian missiles against Europe. That's why NATO signed off on it. After Georgia Europe is running scared and expecting uncle Sam to spend the money and work needed to protect Europe's ass...
/And of course they will never say anything good about us, mates...

80 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:44:01pm

re: #78 Charles

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

Oh for Pete's sake!

81 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:44:16pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Hmmm. I certainly think On The Origin of Species should be taught but only alongside The Holy Bible in order to present both sides of the argument.

A few questions I have are:

(1) Why hasn't the tuatara changed in the past 140 million years even though it's alleged to be the fastest evolving animal?

If the mechanism works for a period, very little adaptation to further processes will take place or be noticeable in the short term. However to state that something has not changed AT ALL in 140 million years is most likely a fallacy to start with.

(2) Why haven't new species emerged with intelligence?

Because creationists get in the way? No .. seriously .. the paths to intelligence are not immediate. If you look at the path taken even by the human it was fraught with different makeups to reach the end product. About 72 different structures competed for the option of ascending to man. And in the end only one came forth as man. Or was it only one?

(3) In what way have sharks and echinoids evolved in the past 400 hundred million years?

Are you saying you are totally familiar with a shark as of 400 million years ago? I'm not aware of any living representations for 400 million year old sharks. As I stated in the first example, if the mechanism works successfully in the environment, very little change is required to keep the lifeform to a successful mode. However if there were changes in the conditions to success they would be reaching in future designs.

82 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:44:51pm

re: #63 VegasRick

If I were you I would put on a helmet!

too late... whacked on it's first post, apparently.

must be some kinda record... %-)

83 callahan23  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:44:58pm

re: #78 Charles

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

Thought as much.

84 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:12pm

How many sock puppets can one nutter have?

85 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:14pm

re: #66 Thanos

AGW is also one of the new directions Discovery institute is going, they didn't get support for attacking evolution alone, so they are now bundling. The other field they are trying to move into is the Neurosciences since there's still a lot of murk in that field.

That is perfectly demonstrated in a new book called The Devil's Delusion. Here is a wonderful review so that one doesn't have to read it that junk:

[Link: www.talkreason.org...]

86 The Hoopster  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:18pm

re: #78 Charles

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

Like moths to a light..

87 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:24pm

re: #78 Charles

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

Won't these people just give it up already! Nobody tries to pull this kind of stuff on the DKos (otherwise, the Kossacks would be ranting feverishly).

88 Racer X  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:35pm

If everything was created 4000 years ago, why does my time machine show me images from a million years ago?

89 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:48pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Hmmm. I certainly think On The Origin of Species should be taught but only alongside The Holy Bible in order to present both sides of the argument.

A few questions I have are:

(1) Why hasn't the tuatara changed in the past 140 million years even though it's alleged to be the fastest evolving animal?

(2) Why haven't new species emerged with intelligence?

(3) In what way have sharks and echinoids evolved in the past 400 hundred million years?

Well I don't know what a tuatara is, but as to the other questions:

(2) There are lots of species with intelligence, and some even with a degree of self-awareness. In addition we once shared the planet with at least one other intelligent hominid, Neandertal Man. But intelligence on our level could well be a cosmic rarity, and anyway nothing's likely to evolve to our level of intelligence while we're the top dogs (although the germs and viruses and bugs are REALLY the top dogs). We already occupy that niche, and there's really no room for another super-intelligent species.

(3) While sharks are still basically the same after millions of years, my understanding is that they nevertheless HAVE changed, via genetic drift, and are different in noticeable ways from their "primitive" ancestors.

90 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:50pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

Hmmm. I certainly think On The Origin of Species should be taught but only alongside The Holy Bible in order to present both sides of the argument.

A few questions I have are:

(1) Why hasn't the tuatara changed in the past 140 million years even though it's alleged to be the fastest evolving animal?

(2) Why haven't new species emerged with intelligence?

(3) In what way have sharks and echinoids evolved in the past 400 hundred million years?

The two are separate discussions.
The Bible is a matter of spirituality and faith. Metaphysical.
Evolution is a matter of evidence, scientific process, testing etc... Physical.

Not the same thing at all.

91 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:45:53pm

re: #84 Buster Bunny

How many sock puppets can one nutter have?

As many as feet they are willing to stick in their mouths.

92 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:46:34pm

re: #91 CyanSnowHawk

As many as feet they are willing to stick in their mouths.

They evolved extra feet?

93 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:46:34pm

well, it's not likely that Romania is going to stop being a 3rd world country any time soon...

94 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:46:58pm

Which came first .. the creationist sock puppet or the egg?

95 Kenneth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:47:57pm

re: #79 LoFlyer

Ah... but Obama left himself a door... he said he would not deploy an "unproven" missile defence technology. If the Pentagon can prove it, he will fund it. He will define "prove" as he wishes.

96 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:48:10pm

re: #94 Buster Bunny

Which came first .. the creationist sock puppet or the egg?

The turtle...

97 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:48:57pm

mmm Romania, the Alabama of Europe

98 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:49:20pm

re: #93 redc1c4

well, it's not likely that Romania is going to stop being a 3rd world country any time soon...

Whats most unsatisfying is that the Romanians that pick up this nonsense and toss it around WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUILD ON IT. So you are left with people who are trapped in the ideology and have absolutely no direction to claim for further construction and development upon it. Yes, it keeps Romania as close to the dark ages as possible without the possibility of turning on a light.

99 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:49:21pm

re: #78 Charles

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

And he sounded so sincere... Does he think he's helping his cause by fooling and misleading others. What an unbiblical way to live.

100 RickJ  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:50:00pm

teaching science is fine, but prior bias will exist and will change the instruction at the classroom level. Pre existing beliefs will color the source material as well. Kids will be taught stuff as truths whether it is or not.

Exhibit A - the delightful science of Global Warming.

Science hasn't escaped pre existing belief - not yet anyway.

101 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:50:12pm
Hmmm. I certainly think On The Origin of Species should be taught but only alongside The Holy Bible in order to present both sides of the argument.

What about all the other scriptures and creation stories? Shouldn't they be taught as well? What about the creation story of Todd Palin's Eskimo tribe?

102 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:50:31pm

re: #90 jcm

The two are separate discussions.
The Bible is a matter of spirituality and faith. Metaphysical.
Evolution is a matter of evidence, scientific process, testing etc... Physical.

Not the same thing at all.

Yup. As I said a few ID threads back, Science examines how He pulled it off, Theology examines why and for whom.

Now, if you want to tie yerself in a knot, mix those together.

103 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:50:50pm

re: #92 jcm

They evolved extra feet?


Not quite sure how that works with a troll.

104 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:51:04pm

I might have to come up with a recipie for cooking sock puppets at this rate

105 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:51:06pm

re: #93 redc1c4

well, it's not likely that Romania is going to stop being a 3rd world country any time soon...

Well this just further seals that fate.

106 yah  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:52:01pm
107 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:52:15pm

re: #78 Charles

I know, I know... I said I was out of here. But dinner is started and I have this weird fascination with watching users self-destruct.

108 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:52:37pm

re: #84 Buster Bunny

How many sock puppets can one nutter have?



How many angels can dance on the head of a pin
?

109 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:52:59pm

re: #100 RickJ

Like clockwork, eh Sharmuta?

110 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:53:01pm

re: #100 RickJ

teaching science is fine, but prior bias will exist and will change the instruction at the classroom level. Pre existing beliefs will color the source material as well. Kids will be taught stuff as truths whether it is or not.

Exhibit A - the delightful science of Global Warming.

Science hasn't escaped pre existing belief - not yet anyway.

Science offers us a means and a credible means of interacting with the world AS WE KNOW IT. Contrary to the creationists alarm, science does question what comes along on a regular basis, and if it fits with whats known it may even adopt it. But it will still work on observable principles and methods. This is why I have such issue with where Schroedingers Cat is at any point in time.

111 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:53:55pm

re: #102 unreconstructed rebel

Yup. As I said a few ID threads back, Science examines how He pulled it off, Theology examines why and for whom.

Now, if you want to tie yerself in a knot, mix those together.

I said pretty much the same thing a few ID threads back.

112 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:13pm

re: #95 Kenneth

Ah... but Obama left himself a door... he said he would not deploy an "unproven" missile defence technology. If the Pentagon can prove it, he will fund it. He will define "prove" as he wishes.

I noticed that also. Isn't it wonderful to be a politician nowadays? No accountability unless you are truly stupid and screw up so badly that even a blind man can see the corruption. All Franken (SP?) is stealing this election in Illinois and the media is on board with the lack of critical thinking like isn't it a little suspicious that all these uncounted votes are for Franken? Yaaar!

113 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:27pm

re: #103 CyanSnowHawk

Not quite sure how that works with a troll.

Hmmm, might mean more gamy buttocks for the grill though.

114 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:28pm
115 Joan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:29pm

re: #63 VegasRick

VegasRick, we can't teach the Holy Bible in school. You know that. How would we be able to do that, without teaching the Koran, and Dianetics?
I'm just saying--why not expend energy on substantive world history & culture courses, along with geography, which would offer an opening to appropriately address religious tradition, without indoctrinating one in particular. Seems our society is becoming so schizo on this topic. There must be a way to preserve respect for tradition, without dragging science education into a theological cauldron.

116 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:34pm

And now, the new Romanian table of the elements!


/All 4 are included!

117 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:42pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

There's a difference between fastest mutating DNA and fastest evolving, you should learn about it. Which species of Tuatara are you referencing btw? What are you comparing it too? Are you aware that most species "rate of change" in DNA is not known? Are you aware that there are other factors that both add to and inhibit evolution besides random mutation? The biggest of these tend to be the rate of change in the environmental niche they happen to be in. In the end Lambert's discoveries look like they will extend rather than refute Evolution.

As to why other species haven't emerged that have intelligence, who's to say they haven't, and been subsequently extinguished by the existing intelligent species? (e.g. the famous Ice mummy in the Alps has zero living descendants among human DNA today that scientists can find.)

Which particular species of shark are you referencing? Some have evolved, others haven't much.

118 Steffan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:54:52pm

re: #78 Charles

Blocked four times, and back with another sock.

They'll learn... eventually.

/naaah, the learning curve is flat...

119 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:55:23pm

re: #108 karmic_inquisitor


How many angels can dance on the head of a pin
?

How many angels want to dance on the head of a pin?

120 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:55:25pm

re: #111 jcm

I said pretty much the same thing a few ID threads back.

GMTA

121 Throbert McGee  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:55:33pm

re: #38 Throbert McGee

They're off racking their brains trying to come up with a good "Numa Numa" pun about creationism/ID.

Me, I gots nuthin'...

I'm still drawing a blank as far as "Creationism jokes to the tune of Rumanian pop songs," but I just came up with this riff on Dorothy Parker:

The age of the Earth when ol' Darwin died
Was, at most, a half-dozen mill-ay-nnia.
And Adam and stegosaurs strode side-by-side,
And I am Marie of Roumania!
© 2008 Throbert M.

122 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:56:00pm

re: #95 Kenneth

Ah... but Obama left himself a door... he said he would not deploy an "unproven" missile defence technology. If the Pentagon can prove it, he will fund it. He will define "prove" as he wishes.

Of course, Newtons laws prove missile defense technology works. The missile defense program is an engineering challenge. Call it inefficient, expensive, unreliable, error prone, etc., but don't say it isn't proven.

123 Karridine  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:56:00pm

re: #92 jcm

They evolved extra feet?

Well, they obviously didn't evolve their MOUTHS or mouth-control... :D

124 Joan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:56:46pm

re: #115 Joan

VegasRick, we can't teach the Holy Bible in school. You know that. How would we be able to do that, without teaching the Koran, and Dianetics?
I'm just saying--why not expend energy on substantive world history & culture courses, along with geography, which would offer an opening to appropriately address religious tradition, without indoctrinating one in particular. Seems our society is becoming so schizo on this topic. There must be a way to preserve respect for tradition, without dragging science education into a theological cauldron.

APOLOGY: VegasRick, I'm sorry; you weren't the poster I should have been addressing. My bad :(

125 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:05pm

re: #100 RickJ

teaching science is fine, but prior bias will exist and will change the instruction at the classroom level. Pre existing beliefs will color the source material as well. Kids will be taught stuff as truths whether it is or not.

Exhibit A - the delightful science of Global Warming.

Science hasn't escaped pre existing belief - not yet anyway.

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. If science is properly followed, only the evidence speaks, not pre-existing notions. If science is left to be science, global warming will self-correct- because of evidence.

126 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:26pm

re: #114 Iron Fist

Just guessing, but I suspect that no matter how successful ballistic missile defense is, it won't be considered successful enough to continue funding it. The Democrats have been trying to ensure that America can be destroyed with ballistic missiles since Reagan was President.

Who are we to be so arrogant as to DEFEND ourselves and our way of life?
Everyone should live in a Marxist 3rd world shit hole! It the utopian dream of the left.

127 itellu3times  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:42pm

re: #30 Sharmuta

So- ditching evolution leaves more time for environmentalism- that might be news to some who think Charles is focusing on the wrong scientific issue in the classrooms.

Can't really make any sense out of ecology, without evolution. If you think things just are, you have no idea of changes that can and can't be made.

128 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:44pm

re: #121 Throbert McGee

I'm still drawing a blank as far as "Creationism jokes to the tune of Rumanian pop songs," but I just came up with this riff on Dorothy Parker:

When I saw this post . . .

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

Rumania, Rumania.

. . . another tune came to mind instead.

129 callahan23  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:48pm

re: #116 gmsc

And now, the new Romanian table of the elements!


/All 4 are included!

THAT'S GREAT!

130 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:54pm

re: #116 gmsc

And now, the new Romanian table of the elements!


/All 4 are included!

you arent kidding .. thats for real?

wow .. these guys need to go down.

131 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:57:59pm

re: #117 Thanos


As to why other species haven't emerged that have intelligence, who's to say they haven't, and been subsequently extinguished by the existing intelligent species?


You forgot about Neanderthals. They had tools, language, art, religion and probably even music.

132 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:26pm

Gotta go. Y'all have a great evening.

133 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:35pm
134 Blackwater28  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:36pm

Who cares. They do a horrible job of teaching science in schools anyway. Honestly if they wanted to teach kids about biology they should just force them to read a well written book by a prominent biologist and be done with it. It would probably be a much more enriching experience than the useless crap they taught me in 7th-9th grade science class.

135 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:39pm
136 Steffan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:51pm

re: #94 Buster Bunny

Which came first .. the creationist sock puppet or the egg?

We can at least hope that the creationist sock puppet got some fun out of it...

137 traderjoe9  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:54pm

Too many people look for proof of God...little do they know that no such proof exists. I wouldn't think its intended that way - in fact if there was a proof it would be utterly pathetic. If we had proof of God then everybody would be a Rabbi or a Priest or whoever.

The closest thing to proof of God is the Jews.

138 VegasRick  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:58:56pm

re: #124 Joan

APOLOGY: VegasRick, I'm sorry; you weren't the poster I should have been addressing. My bad :(

No problem, I enjoyed the post as well. That is a very good question btw.

139 RickJ  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:59:02pm

re: #110 Buster Bunny

Science offers us a means and a credible means of interacting with the world AS WE KNOW IT. Contrary to the creationists alarm, science does question what comes along on a regular basis, and if it fits with whats known it may even adopt it. But it will still work on observable principles and methods. This is why I have such issue with where Schroedingers Cat is at any point in time.

well - I'm not smart enough to follow all that - but how do you feel about kids in school today being fear programmed about super storms and drowned out cities coming all of a sudden any minute now? Thats what science in school is up to. I don't trust the school system all that much.

140 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:59:20pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Great point, and Thanos at 117 too since I missed it...

141 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:59:23pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

You forgot about Neanderthals. They had tools, language, art, religion and probably even music.

No, that was going to be pt. 2 in the reply, but I think the Discomoby got whacked.

142 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:59:42pm

re: #98 Buster Bunny

Whats most unsatisfying is that the Romanians that pick up this nonsense and toss it around WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUILD ON IT. So you are left with people who are trapped in the ideology and have absolutely no direction to claim for further construction and development upon it. Yes, it keeps Romania as close to the dark ages as possible without the possibility of turning on a light.

so it's a sort of religious marxism then, eh?

143 itellu3times  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:59:48pm

Awe, I'd respond to #52, but not if it's gone.

144 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 5:59:57pm

OT for Atlanta lizards, we are canceling the Atlanta meet in December and will shoot for something in January. I just have too much going on over the next two weekends mates, and then we run into the holidays. On the positive side the projects are all on track and the testing is looking good!

145 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:00:16pm

OT: for the gaming geeks who wanted to buy GTA 4, don't buy it yet. They have a major bug that prevents the game from being functional. Give it a week or so and see if they can correct the problem before you buy.

146 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:00:37pm

re: #116 gmsc

And now, the new Romanian table of the elements!


/All 4 are included!

Is this the official band?
Earth, Wind and Fire.

147 itellu3times  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:01:13pm

Hooboy, those socks I thought my dryer ate are showing up tonight as puppets, ain't they just?

148 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:01:23pm

re: #130 Buster Bunny

you arent kidding .. thats for real?

wow .. these guys need to go down.

For clarity:

THE REDISCOVERY INSTITUTE IS A SITE PARODYING CREATIONISTS AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN "INTELLIGENT DESIGN"!

149 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:01:30pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

You forgot about Neanderthals. They had tools, language, art, religion and probably even music.

Yeah, but it was all this dreary, depressing, emo crap. The Neanderthals didn't go extinct so much as they lost the will to live.
/

150 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:01:39pm

Well, at least you all dont have to send your kids to Romanian schools and you also have the choice to even completely avoid the place.

A bit like deciding whether to visit "our friends, the Saudis"

151 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:01:40pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

GTA?

152 clgood  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:01:59pm

re: #133 Skyrocket

Charles is on an important crusade. If you can't see how dangerous a threat to truth and science creationism is, then you're part of the problem. Read what Steven Novella wrote on his Neurologica Blog.

153 J.S.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:08pm

re: #133 Skyrocket

The "issue" here which you cavalierly dismiss as "boring" is about Truth -- it's about the natural world and how we are to interpret our world -- using the rigors of science, and in terms of science. and, contrary to your claims, many, many, many of us at this blog, find this topic thoroughly absorbing, and, indeed, fascinating and necessary to pursue...(as opposed to pursuing fantasies.)

154 FightingBack  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:17pm

re: #112 LoFlyer

I noticed that also. Isn't it wonderful to be a politician nowadays? No accountability unless you are truly stupid and screw up so badly that even a blind man can see the corruption...

That only works for the politicians on the Left.

155 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:19pm

re: #151 Thanos

GTA?

Thank heaven someone else asked so I didn't have to...
:D

156 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:23pm

re: #133 Skyrocket

Dear Skyrocket,

Please start your own blog that I may tell you what to do with it. Thanks!

157 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:23pm

Speaking of games, I'm becoming addicted to LittleBigPlanet. Platforms taken to the next level.

158 Karridine  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:27pm

re: #121 Throbert McGee

Oh no you don't! You can (C) copyright it all you want, but publish it HERE and we gonna RECORD IT and publish it right back atcha, McGee!

/or maybe "The Lame Show, with David Betterman" or "Mere Reporting by Keith Olderman"

159 Steffan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:46pm

re: #122 Basho

Of course, Newtons laws prove missile defense technology works. The missile defense program is an engineering challenge. Call it inefficient, expensive, unreliable, error prone, etc., but don't say it isn't proven.

Seems to me that Robert Goddard proved that in 1922.

Of course, it took the NYT until 1969 to admit they were wrong and Goddard was right...

160 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:55pm

re: #149 Slumbering Behemoth

They were pretty funky: Troglodyte

161 itellu3times  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:02:55pm

re: #149 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but it was all this dreary, depressing, emo crap. The Neanderthals didn't go extinct so much as they lost the will to live.

Maybe they just finished all their earthly work and ascended to a higher plane.

Or maybe they're still here, watching you ... bugga bugga!

162 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:03:24pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

Thanks for the tip. I just beat Half-Life 2 a week ago and I've been looking for a new game to play.

163 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:03:27pm

re: #133 Skyrocket

Goodbye Carl. (Said in my best German psychologist accent)

164 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:04:19pm

re: #157 Charles

Huh, maybe I'll wait 'till it hits the bargain bin. It isn't really a game I'd normally consider but I'll give it a try.

165 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:05pm

GTA = Grand Theft Auto.

166 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:10pm

re: #89 Tigger2005

Well I don't know what a tuatara is, but as to the other questions:

(2) There are lots of species with intelligence, and some even with a degree of self-awareness. In addition we once shared the planet with at least one other intelligent hominid, Neandertal Man. But intelligence on our level could well be a cosmic rarity, and anyway nothing's likely to evolve to our level of intelligence while we're the top dogs (although the germs and viruses and bugs are REALLY the top dogs). We already occupy that niche, and there's really no room for another super-intelligent species.

(3) While sharks are still basically the same after millions of years, my understanding is that they nevertheless HAVE changed, via genetic drift, and are different in noticeable ways from their "primitive" ancestors.


A Tuatara is a Kiwi lizard, said to have not changed in the 140 millions years its been around. Which makes me suspect that "Oilismastery" could well be from down this way. I will dig you up a nice pic.

167 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:10pm

re: #126 jcm

Who are we to be so arrogant as to DEFEND ourselves and our way of life?
Everyone should live in a Marxist 3rd world shit hole! It the utopian dream of the left.

The Democrats all bought into the Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine of status quo of the cold war. That worked with the Soviets who were not insane and loved their children and grand children. The leaders of Iran cannot be certified sane and they certainly don't love their children. I hope Obama is smart enough to realize their might be some merit behind European ABM defense against Iran and Russia...I also think Europe should pay for it mates!

PS Charles, I love your new server! You are smoken' mate!

168 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:11pm

re: #162 Basho

If you bought Half Life as part of The Orange Box there's some other really good games bundled with it. Portal is great and Team Fortress 2 is really fun once you get the hang of it.

169 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:34pm

re: #159 Steffan

Seems to me that Robert Goddard proved that in 1922.

Of course, it took the NYT until 1969 to admit they were wrong and Goddard was right...

Every knows a rocket in space won't work, it has nothing to push against!
//

Well they still keep their '33 Pullet Surprise, (the one covered with blood if you have the eyes to see it.)

170 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:42pm

re: #165 Basho

Ohhh!

Right.

171 CalBear84  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:06:59pm

Information on natural selection, how fish turned into lizards

Lizards!

172 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:07:00pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

Huh, maybe I'll wait 'till it hits the bargain bin. It isn't really a game I'd normally consider but I'll give it a try.

Get ready for the cuteness factor turned up to 10. Still a great game with realistic momentum/inertia modeling, and highly creative graphics.

173 jelo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:07:03pm

"fish turned into lizards"

didn't know the group here once might have been fish/fishes...what kind?

sushi!

174 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:07:13pm

re: #165 Basho

GTA = Grand Theft Auto.

ugh, a game I would never buy.

175 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:07:52pm

Nice moonbattery here: [Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Gotta blame the US! Looking at a list of her past articles, "anti-imperialism" is a common theme. What an ass.

176 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:08:33pm

re: #165 Basho

GTA = Grand Theft Auto.

What? Not the Greater Tokyo Area? Gasp!

/

177 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:08:53pm

re: #176 gclaghorn

What? Not the Greater Tokyo Area? Gasp!

/

Battling Godzilla?

178 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:09:07pm
179 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:09:21pm

I find it odd that folks who OBSESS over the occasional creationism/evolution thread on this site can call it "Charles' Obsession" without the slightest hint of irony. It must require a serious disassociation with logic.

180 RickJ  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:09:57pm

I stopped playing with toy trucks when I was about 7.
I probably can't avoid offending you guys if I say you that computer games are basically just a bunch of fancy toy trucks. oh well. play on.

181 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:10:19pm

re: #172 Charles

Get ready for the cuteness factor turned up to 10. Still a great game with realistic momentum/inertia modeling, and highly creative graphics.

I'm going back to the good ol fashion games of nature. Like er .. um .. poking a dead frog with a stick ...

Move ... ya frog ... move !

/woo .. available for PS3 in late 2009 .. cant wait !

182 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:10:40pm
183 callahan23  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:11:01pm

re: #178 A Kiwi Infidel

Tuatara

Hey, that's one of us!

184 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:11:25pm

re: #169 jcm

Every knows a rocket in space won't work, it has nothing to push against!
//

Well they still keep their '33 Pullet Surprise, (the one covered with blood if you have the eyes to see it.)

LOL
I'm not familiar with this NYT/Goddard thing. Did the NYT really say a rocket can't work in space because it has nothing to push against?

185 ArmyWife  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:11:30pm

re: #180 RickJ

I got Wii Fit. I like the hula hoop.

186 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:11:34pm

re: #175 garycooper
What a moron.
This is much better:

Mumbai's Lesson: It Pays To Listen
War On Terror: U.S. warnings beginning in October of an imminent terror attack didn't save India. And if Democrats continue to doubt the value of aggressive terrorist surveillance, America can expect the same fate.

The world was stunned by the murder last week of nearly 200 people in India's financial capital, Mumbai, apparently by the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, which demands the end of Indian rule in Kashmir and Islamist rule throughout South Asia.

The seven-plus years of remarkable safety America has enjoyed have had the unfortunate side effect of lulling all too many of us into complacency about the reality of the 21st century. (This is why we at Investor's Business Daily mark the 11th of every month with a reminder to readers of the attack of Sept. 11, 2001, running photographs of some of the tragic or heroic events that took place that day.)

The prevention of a repeat of 9/11 wasn't magic. Nor was it luck.

We have our courageous law enforcement officers at the federal, state and local level to thank.

And we have the unsung heroes working in secrecy within the National Security Agency, monitoring telephone and computer communications that may come from or go to terrorists to thank, as well as the intelligence operatives working for the CIA and other spy agencies, some of whom gather lifesaving information in exotic ways.

Perhaps most importantly, we have our outgoing commander in chief to thank, the much-maligned President George W. Bush. There's no doubt that history will vindicate the president who went far beyond his Constitutional duties in selflessly protecting the American people.

For years, Bush's political foes have sought his scalp for approving the NSA's terrorist surveillance program and the CIA's black prison terrorist interrogation program. (Some in Congress intend to continue seeking his scalp even after he leaves office next month.)

Both programs were highly-classified secrets, but their existence was leaked separately to the New York Times and Washington Post by misguided anonymous government sources who obviously can't tell the difference between Watergate and the war on terror.

The NSA operation conducted rapid-response monitoring of domestic communications involving possible terrorist contacts; the much-criticized CIA interrogation program used foreign locales to interrogate high-ranking al-Qaida members and other terrorists possessing high-value information. Both programs have saved hundreds of innocent lives, perhaps many more.

To the president's opponents, however, these are unconstitutional abuses of power and serve as an excuse to try to destroy a two-term presidency that until lately was getting credit for a vibrant economy and its unrelenting struggle to fight the growing global terrorist threat, especially in Iraq.

There were no dark, Nixonian motives behind this president's approval of those two programs; there was only a determination to protect the homeland to the fullest extent possible — even if it meant risking his own political neck. ...

187 ArmyWife  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:12:06pm

re: #178 A Kiwi Infidel

Walter? That you?

/// oh I hope he sees the humor in that since our little spat!

188 J.S.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:12:15pm

I want to get into hacking that Nintendo DS -- you know, "homebrew", etc. -- devise a math tutorial (for doing quick, "mental math"), etc., using that touch screen. There's a CD with card out there -- "Math 'n Games" by Datel, which can turn the DS console into a mini computer -- mp3 files, video, wireless connections, etc...and you can write your own programs, then load 'em up...

189 Throbert McGee  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:12:35pm

There's a Rumanian immigrant family living in the apartment/condo just across the hall from mine. The parents don't speak English very comfortably, but their kid is a thoroughly fluent and Americanized sixth-grade nerd/taekwondo enthusiast, who has jokingly threatened to kick my ass ever since I asked him about "Dragostea Din Tei."

190 Karridine  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:12:42pm

re: #179 Slumbering Behemoth

I find it odd that folks who OBSESS over the occasional creationism/evolution thread on this site can call it "Charles' Obsession" without the slightest hint of irony. It must require a serious disassociation with logic.

Logic? LOGIC? We don' nee' no steenk'n logic!

/we nee' steenk'n FEELINGS! :D

191 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:13:19pm

re: #180 RickJ

Are you trying to be insulting?

192 SWPaul  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:13:43pm

Romania? That comes out of left-field. Was not expecting this to come out of there. In fact, I was not expecting any news to come out of Romania...

193 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:13:51pm

re: #188 J.S.

I want to get into hacking that Nintendo DS -- you know, "homebrew", etc. -- devise a math tutorial (for doing quick, "mental math"), etc., using that touch screen. There's a CD with card out there -- "Math 'n Games" by Datel, which can turn the DS console into a mini computer -- mp3 files, video, wireless connections, etc...and you can write your own programs, then load 'em up...

I want to hack it to produce a sequence that allows you to have 230 IQ .. so then you hand it to another family member and ... they show up just over 100 or something .. so you can sit there and just grin :)

194 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:13:54pm

re: #182 Iron Fist

Anyone that mentions Hiroshima without mentioning Pearl Harbor, the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, and so on loses all credibility as far as I am concerned. I've got better things to do with my life than waste time reading their drivel.

Amen.

195 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:07pm

Time for my standard list of favorite ID/Creationist argument links:

reDiscovery Institute (Parody site)

Using creationist/ID arguments against them:
Why We Believe in a Designer!
Organisms that Look Designed
Oolon Colluphid's Guide to Creation

Talk.Origins archive

196 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:31pm

re: #182 Iron Fist

Anyone that mentions Hiroshima without mentioning Pearl Harbor, the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, and so on loses all credibility as far as I am concerned. I've got better things to do with my life than waste time reading their drivel.

Amen. I once got into an argument online over Hiroshima. I should have asked if they knew all about the Rape of Naking and so on before I wasted my time with their crap. Oh well, you live and learn.

197 Racer X  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:34pm

re: #186 J.D.

The office of the president has one major function - keep Americans safe. Bush has done that.

198 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:39pm

re: #180 RickJ

Oh, yeah, I definitely see that connection. Thanks.

/

199 Joan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:39pm

re: #114 Iron Fist

They are either totally deluded or suicidal. I cannot fathom these *people*

The really do live in an alternate reality.

200 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:42pm

re: #183 callahan23

Hey, that's one of us!

Yup, and it was once a fish...or maybe not.

By the way callahan23, are those gills I see?

201 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:14:43pm

re: #182 Iron Fist

Anyone that mentions Hiroshima without mentioning Pearl Harbor, the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, and so on loses all credibility as far as I am concerned. I've got better things to do with my life than waste time reading their drivel.

That's what got me banned from D.U. mate. first thread and banned in 30 minutes for defending the idea that Pearl Harbor was not due to American aggression. Sort of like the way the moon-bats think of 911...

202 RickJ  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:03pm

re: #191 Sharmuta

Are you trying to be insulting?

not that much - maybe a little - sometimes I can be quite pleasant

203 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:14pm

re: #185 ArmyWife

I got Wii Fit. I like the hula hoop.

Me too =)
But I've stopped playing it for a while and now I've developed a big belly =(

204 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:43pm

re: #187 ArmyWife

Walter? That you?

/// oh I hope he sees the humor in that since our little spat!


You've lost me completely

205 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:45pm

re: #180 RickJ

I stopped playing with toy trucks when I was about 7.
I probably can't avoid offending you guys if I say you that computer games are basically just a bunch of fancy toy trucks. oh well. play on.

You're no fun anymore.

206 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:46pm

re: #201 LoFlyer

That's what got me banned from D.U. mate. first thread and banned in 30 minutes for defending the idea that Pearl Harbor was not due to American aggression. Sort of like the way the moon-bats think of 911...

I think that being banned by the Democratic Underground is a badge of honor. I bow to you.

207 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:50pm
But there are new proposals to make all religious classes compulsory for the education system, regardless of the parents' wishes. All children who do not want to attend Religion classes would attend a Moral and Religious Education class. But there is no one qualified to teach Moral and Religious Education. Some teachers fear that the classes will, with minor additions, be the same Orthodox curriculum dictated by a religious studies teacher to a single Jew, Muslim or Humanist in a library or staff room.

Thank God for the Constitution.

208 J.S.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:54pm

re: #193 Buster Bunny

oooh, yeah...(oh btw, correction on my previous post -- that's "Music 'n Games" -- argh...)

209 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:15:58pm

re: #197 Racer X

The office of the president has one major function - keep Americans safe. Bush has done that.

Yes he has.
Easy for some people to dismiss, isn't it?

210 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:16:03pm

Current Score.
Bannings. 1
Deletions. 1

211 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:16:42pm

re: #161 itellu3times

Maybe they just finished all their earthly work and ascended to a higher plane.

Or maybe they're still here, watching you ... bugga bugga!

I knew it. The perverts!

212 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:18:08pm

re: #202 RickJ

not that much - maybe a little - sometimes I can be quite pleasant

Perhaps you should work on being pleasant more often.

213 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:18:17pm

re: #210 Bubblehead II

For the thread? The day? Month?

214 OldLineTexan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:18:18pm

re: #97 SpaceJesus

mmm Romania, the Alabama of Europe

There are a lot of people in Alabama smarter than you, and most of them are less jerk-like.

215 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:18:19pm

re: #205 CyanSnowHawk

Grown ups are so lame.

216 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:18:55pm

Zimbabwe descends to another level of hell.

The International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed that six people had died in South Africa, with 400 cases reported. In Zimbabwe, the official cholera toll jumped to nearly 600 yesterday, according to the World Health Organisation (WHO), but President Robert Mugabe was still underplaying the crisis by refusing calls to declare the epidemic outbreak a national disaster.

Instead, he deployed heavily armed police to break up a protest by doctors and nurses, inset, complaining about poor working conditions and lack of equipment to help them deal with the cholera outbreak.

217 Buster Bunny  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:19:11pm

And the best thing about this new server that Charles has, if you leave a slice of bread on it for about an hour you get a nice browned piece of toast.

218 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:19:19pm

re: #177 jcm

Battling Godzilla?

Top Ten Giant Movie Monsters of all Time [Lang. warning]

219 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:19:42pm

Is it me, or did the last hatching of hatchlings produce more that average number of troll candidates?

220 callahan23  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:19:51pm

re: #200 A Kiwi Infidel

Yup, and it was once a fish...or maybe not.

By the way callahan23, are those gills I see?

You mean in your photo? - No definetely wrinkles (aka surplus skin).
Or did you mean my avatar?
That's my lovely cat, she as well as all her brethren are way out of the stage of gills. That's hair around her neck. ;-)

221 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:19:52pm

re: #217 Buster Bunny

And the best thing about this new server that Charles has, if you leave a slice of bread on it for about an hour you get a nice browned piece of toast.

What about my Poptarts?

222 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:20:02pm

re: #180 RickJ

One could say the same about guns, cars, cycling, or any other hobby folks like to fiddle around with, and be just as wrong.

223 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:20:12pm

This thing is stuck or something...

224 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:20:19pm

re: #206 gclaghorn

I think that being banned by the Democratic Underground is a badge of honor. I bow to you.

Haar, I wasn't pleased. I was having a good time playing the "troll"!

225 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:20:35pm

re: #219 A Kiwi Infidel

Is it me, or did the last hatching of hatchlings produce more that average number of troll candidates?

How many have been banhammered so far?

226 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:20:55pm

Since when does Charles have time for video games?

227 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:21:08pm

re: #221 gclaghorn

What about my Poptarts?

I wouldn't if I were you...

228 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:21:22pm

re: #213 J.D.

Just this thread. But it WILL increase. I can guarantee it. Please feel free to update as the thread continues.

229 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:21:57pm

re: #226 Noam Sayin'

Since when does Charles have time for video games?

Mini-vacations.

230 OldLineTexan  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:06pm

re: #217 Buster Bunny

And the best thing about this new server that Charles has, if you leave a slice of bread on it for about an hour you get a nice browned piece of toast.

I submitted an idea at work to equip one of our earlier portables with a slot. For Pop Tarts.

231 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:07pm

re: #222 Slumbering Behemoth

In my family music was considered the ultimate waste of time. For Some people it's books or TV. Chicks think fishing is a waste of time. Go figure.

232 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:09pm

re: #222 Slumbering Behemoth

One could say the same about guns, cars, cycling, or any other hobby folks like to fiddle around with, and be just as wrong.

I quit playing with Barbies when I was 8, but I still get dressed.

233 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:09pm

re: #226 Noam Sayin'

Since when does Charles have time for video games?

I was wondering that myself. Maybe there are two Charles.

234 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:12pm

re: #228 Bubblehead II

I missed them both.
Don't count on me! :D

235 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:24pm

re: #216 jcm

Zimbabwe descends to another level of hell.

Very sad, I got a job offer from Africa a couple of weeks back and refused in a heart-beat. Not many safe places in Africa, mate...

236 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:22:28pm

re: #229 Charles

Mini-vacations.

Now we know why the server really bogged down...

// ;-P

237 greenmiler  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:23:13pm

Charles,
thanks for your new 'Clydesdale Hamsters'!

238 Crux Australis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:23:14pm

An Aussie Lizard

Frillnecked Lizard

239 SWPaul  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:23:29pm

re: #203 Basho

I watched a buddy of mine do the yoga thing on Wii Fit. I almost died laughing. It's fun, but I would never do it in front of people; way too uncoordinated for it.

240 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:24:45pm

re: #235 LoFlyer

Very sad, I got a job offer from Africa a couple of weeks back and refused in a heart-beat. Not many safe places in Africa, mate...

I know a native (white) Zimbabwean driven out by Mugabe. Zimbabwe was at one time a decent place, exporter of food. Now it's just hell on earth.

Any comments I have about Mugabe are bannable.

241 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:25:17pm

re: #236 jcm

Now we know why the server really bogged down...

// ;-P

No, the hamsters kept taking dancing breaks.

242 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:25:46pm

re: #182 Iron Fist

Well, I take some comfort in knowing my Dad helped bomb the Japanese war machine into cinders, flying 100+ bombing runs from Tinian during the Iwo Jima and Okinawa campaigns. He's still alive, btw, at 85. One of the last survivors of his B-29 flight group, which has been meeting annually for the past 20 years or so. There were several hundred guys, when they first started meeting in the '80's, or when my Dad first started going to the gatherings. Now, there's about ten.

The Guardian loves to print this kind of drivel, though. Just happened to stumble on it, while trying to find some more info on Mumbai. Ugh.

243 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:25:56pm

re: #240 jcm

I know a native (white) Zimbabwean driven out by Mugabe. Zimbabwe was at one time a decent place, exporter of food. Now it's just hell on earth.

Any comments I have about Mugabe are bannable.

Yet also quite understandable. He is a modern day Idi Amin.

244 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:26:23pm

Well dinner is ready and it is time to actually be socially interactive with my wife. Anybody/Everybody please feel free to keep the banning/deleted count up to date.

L8R

245 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:26:28pm

re: #186 J.D.

MUCH better! Thanks.

246 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:26:30pm
247 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:26:36pm

re: #241 gclaghorn

No, the hamsters kept taking dancing breaks.

That... tune... can't... get... it... out... of... my... head...

You are so on my list!
;-)

248 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:26:37pm

re: #240 jcm

I know a native (white) Zimbabwean driven out by Mugabe. Zimbabwe was at one time a decent place, exporter of food. Now it's just hell on earth.

Any comments I have about Mugabe are bannable.

Perhaps just his current residence could be converted to a parking lot, hypothetically speaking, of course.

249 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:26:50pm
250 Outrider  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:27:34pm

re: #144 LoFlyer

OT for Atlanta lizards, we are canceling the Atlanta meet in December and will shoot for something in January. I just have too much going on over the next two weekends mates, and then we run into the holidays. On the positive side the projects are all on track and the testing is looking good!

curiosity. deep in Atlanta or convenient to the Interstate? Generally speaking what area of Atlanta was being considered?

251 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:27:52pm

re: #232 Sharmuta

If my brain wasn't on auto-pilot today, I would think of something funny (and perhaps a little sexist) to say about that last part.

252 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:27:56pm

re: #245 garycooper

We didn't used to call them al-Guardian for nothing!
:D

253 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:28:07pm

Killgore- do you have the graph that shows how creationism is rising in europe handy?

254 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:28:20pm

re: #248 David IV of Georgia

Perhaps just his current residence could be converted to a parking lot, hypothetically speaking, of course.

I was thinking up close and personal, and sleeping very well that night.

255 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:28:32pm

re: #251 Slumbering Behemoth

If my brain wasn't on auto-pilot today, I would think of something funny (and perhaps a little sexist) to say about that last part.

Damn- I was looking forward to your come back to that.

256 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:29:18pm

re: #240 jcm

I know a native (white) Zimbabwean driven out by Mugabe. Zimbabwe was at one time a decent place, exporter of food. Now it's just hell on earth.

Any comments I have about Mugabe are bannable.

Much of Africa is driven by tribal politics, and the population has risen to where millions die in the battles for power. Disease and war are rampant and the NGO's are being driven out. The pirate situation off Somalia is giving me a bad reputation mate!

257 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:29:24pm

re: #157 Charles

Speaking of games, I'm becoming addicted to LittleBigPlanet. Platforms taken to the next level.

Got a teenage son who is hooked on that game, and he has lots o' games to choose from.

258 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:29:32pm
259 Flying Dutchman  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:29:49pm

OT
Hi all,

Terrorist Web Site Hosted by Major US Web Hosting Company !

Thanks' to mypetjawa we now know that a major US hosting company (DreamHost.com) is hosting the web site of the terrorist organization that is probably behind last week attacks on Mumbai, Jamaat ud Daawa also known as Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT).

DreamHost responded to an e-mail I sent them and is fully aware of this situation.

At the time of posting of this link they have NOT taken the terrorist's web site offline !

DreamHost says that they need "new or additional evidence about illegal activity".

Please expose that company's criminal behavior !

Spread the word !

260 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:30:53pm

re: #229 Charles

Mini-vacations.

Mini-vacations... Puh!

There are two of you.

We know.

261 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:31:06pm

re: #259 Flying Dutchman

OT
Hi all,

Terrorist Web Site Hosted by Major US Web Hosting Company !

Thanks' to mypetjawa we now know that a major US hosting company (DreamHost.com) is hosting the web site of the terrorist organization that is probably behind last week attacks on Mumbai, Jamaat ud Daawa also known as Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT).

DreamHost responded to an e-mail I sent them and is fully aware of this situation.

At the time of posting of this link they have NOT taken the terrorist's web site offline !

DreamHost says that they need "new or additional evidence about illegal activity".

Please expose that company's criminal behavior !

Spread the word !

I will make a note never to send any business their way until they resolve this situation. Thanks for the tip!

262 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:31:09pm

re: #256 LoFlyer

Much of Africa is driven by tribal politics, and the population has risen to where millions die in the battles for power. Disease and war are rampant and the NGO's are being driven out. The pirate situation off Somalia is giving me a bad reputation mate!

Africa is a dog's lunch politically, no easy fixes, and (pardon the phrase) a tar baby to get involved in.

263 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:31:34pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Hmmm, no. I had it saved in my favorites but it now leads to here.

264 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:31:46pm

re: #250 Outrider

curiosity. deep in Atlanta or convenient to the Interstate? Generally speaking what area of Atlanta was being considered?

'Me nic is blue, hit me on email and I'll reveal the secret location, it is near "Little five points" mate.

265 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:31:49pm

re: #185 ArmyWife

My daughter wants the Wii Fit for Christmas. Is it really worth it? I like the other sports games on Wii, like tennis, golf and boxing. The kids clean my clock, but they're fun.

266 The Hoopster  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:32:25pm

re: #229 Charles

Mini-vacations.

You my friend need a Maxi-Vacation...
Great work Charles..

267 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:33:00pm

re: #255 Sharmuta

Sorry Sharm, I got nuthin'. Maybe if I had some more sleep. Wait, I got it:re: #232 Sharmuta

I quit playing with Barbies when I was 8, but I still get dressed.

You must prove your claim with a link.
/I call that fact-checking your ass.

Ok, they can't all be gems.

268 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:33:31pm

re: #260 Noam Sayin'

Mini-vacations... Puh!

There are two of you.

We know.

California "Charles" who likes bicycles and geeky web stuff...

and

Denver "Charles" who rules a vast secret empire through his Zionist henchmen and avoids talking about basketball...

269 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:33:59pm

re: #259 Flying Dutchman

Hey - you can rate articles there without registering.

Anyone care to join me?

270 swamprat  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:34:12pm

re: #186 J.D.

What a moron.
This is much better:

Mumbai's Lesson: It Pays To Listen
War On Terror: U.S. warnings beginning in October of an imminent terror attack didn't save India. And if Democrats continue to doubt the value of aggressive terrorist surveillance, America can expect the same fate.

NPR took this and spun to literally say that, because we warned India, "America was involved"(!)
Followed by a puff piece on Obama. They were praising Him because he was going to raise our electricity prices by making the power companies less polluting, undoing the "bush administrations" pollution allowances, and making the power companies use "the most advanced technology available". This means that every company that could introduce the slightest improvement could legally force the power companies to retool. And they were pushing this as a good thing.
You can't make this up

271 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:34:21pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Ah, here it is...
Public Acceptance of Evolution

Romania is still kicking our butts.

272 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:35:01pm

re: #265 garycooper

My daughter wants the Wii Fit for Christmas. Is it really worth it? I like the other sports games on Wii, like tennis, golf and boxing. The kids clean my clock, but they're fun.

Well, if you like those particular games and want to get in shape then I think it's worth it. It really works as a work-out and it's fun, but it's not multiplayer unfortunately so for a group of kids it may not be the best present.

273 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:35:10pm

re: #238 Crux Australis

An Aussie Lizard

Frillnecked Lizard


You also have the Brown Recluse Spider and you can keep it.

(warning,: not for the squeamish)

274 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:35:16pm

re: #247 jcm

That... tune... can't... get... it... out... of... my... head...

You are so on my list!
;-)

And now, the top two "earworms" of all time:

Earworm #2

Earworm #1

275 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:35:40pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

Thanks! Stuck it in my favorites too.

276 gclaghorn  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:35:55pm

re: #274 gmsc

And now, the top two "earworms" of all time:

Earworm #2

Earworm #1

I clicked on both of them and closed the window frantically before they started playing. :-)

277 Karridine  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:35:58pm

re: #242 garycooper

Gary, PLEASE personally thank your father for his service, from me...

I lost my father in July, he repaired planes in war-torn England, same time as your dad...

They won't be here much longer, Sir

278 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:36:01pm
279 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:36:10pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout


Romania is still kicking our butts.

LMAO
That's hilarious but sad =/

280 LilyGecko  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:36:17pm

I might visit Turkey some day...

re: #271 Killgore Trout

281 ArmyWife  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:37:08pm

re: #204 A Kiwi Infidel

If you were walter, it wouldn't be lost on you - sorry, it we be a long time explaining.

282 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:37:27pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth

See? I get dressed.

283 jcm  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:37:36pm

re: #274 gmsc

And now, the top two "earworms" of all time:

Earworm #2

Earworm #1

It's a Small World, still echoes 35 years after the ride...

284 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:37:45pm

re: #252 J.D.

Oh yeah...I remember al-Guardian! Very apt.

285 swamprat  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:12pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

Ah, here it is...
Public Acceptance of Evolution

Romania is still kicking our butts.

Malta is on the list. China is not. (?)

That is weird.

286 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:27pm

re: #281 ArmyWife

If you were walter, it wouldn't be lost on you - sorry, it we be a long time explaining.

{In my best Irish accent}

Ah well tare we go den.

287 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:38pm

re: #276 gclaghorn

I clicked on both of them and closed the window frantically before they started playing. :-)

Just for that:

Earworm #3!

;)

288 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:40pm
289 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:44pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

See? I get dressed.

Stuck that in my favorites.
=P

290 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:47pm

re: #270 swamprat

Ewww...I can hear it now...

Did you ever read Michael Kelly? He was so good! ! !
"Good evening, and welcome to 'All Is Lost ...'"

"Good evening, and welcome to 'All Is Lost,' the nightly public affairs program produced by National Public Radio and the British Broadcasting Corp. Tonight we discuss what has been called America's war against terror. I am your host, Perfectly Modulated Voice of Reason.

"With me, in our Washington studio, are: Fabled Newsman Who Was There When Saigon Fell . . . Scientifically Trained Impartial Scholar . . . and Bureau Chief of Second-Rate Regional Monopoly Newspaper Who Is Desperate to Be Hired by the New York Times. From London, we are joined by our European affairs analyst, Loathes America and Prays for Its Swift Destruction.

"First, today's war news. Tens of thousands of Afghans in liberated Kabul greeted President George W. Bush with wild cheers and much waving of American flags. The mayor of Kabul, in a traditional gesture of welcome, presented President Bush with the head of Osama bin Laden on a pike. Accepting the gaily decorated head, Mr. Bush quipped: 'This shall not stand -- at least not without this handy pike!' Meanwhile, across the Middle East, news of the so-called allied victory in Afghanistan appeared to be producing remarkable changes in the political dynamic. Radical Islamic fundamentalism, as Western critics perhaps unfairly call it, seemed under attack. . . .

291 Throbert McGee  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:38:51pm

re: #128 gmsc

When I saw this post . . .

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

Rumania, Rumania.


. . . another tune came to mind instead.

Heh! Thanks to both you and buzzsawmonkey (whose post #27 I hadn't seen, obviously) for those great YouTube links.

But the "Rumania, Rumania" song linked by BSM seems to be in Yiddish -- so "Dragostea Din Tei" (aka "Numa Numa," aka "Maya Hee, Maya Hoo," aka "The One With the Fat Kid Lip-Synching") stays in its slot as Rumanian's only known contribution to popular music.

(I was gonna say "Rumania's only known contribution to popular culture," but then I remembered Vlad Tepesh, without whom there would be no Nosferatu, no Blackula, and no Love at First Bite. Also, "Dragostea Din Tei" was by a Moldavan band, although sung in Rumanian.)

292 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:39:03pm

re: #232 Sharmuta

I quit playing with Barbies when I was 8, but I still get dressed.

what a shame... %-)

293 LilyGecko  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:39:11pm

re: #274 gmsc

*shuts mouth*
Mmph. Mmph! Argh - Ha! Ha Ha!

That is funny. Those have never actually gotten stuck in my head.

294 The Hoopster  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:39:25pm

re: #281 ArmyWife

If you were walter, it wouldn't be lost on you - sorry, it we be a long time explaining.

Hi Army wife. thanks for your kind post about my Marine Boy..
Regards

295 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:39:41pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

You my friend need a Maxi-Vacation...
Great work Charles..

Ditto Charles! Mini-vacations are a lot better than nothing, but you need something better, like a week long vacation. Use the mini-vacs to build up performance of a assistant web-master and your moderators, then take off for a week! We appreciate all you do and want to keep you "online"!

296 FightingBack  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:39:58pm

re: #231 Killgore Trout

In my family music was considered the ultimate waste of time...

It's no wonder you don't believe in God.

297 Flying Dutchman  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:40:39pm

re: #269 karmic_inquisitor

Hey - you can rate articles there without registering.

Anyone care to join me?

I think it's more important to try to get that site offline, go to DreamHost and post a link to mypetjawa on their blog : DreamHost Status so many of their customers will know who "their" company is hosting

298 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:41:09pm
299 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:41:29pm

re: #272 Basho

Thanks for the input. In the meantime, since I posted the question, my wife has informed that she has already purchased the Fit for L'il Darling #2, for Christmas. Guess I don't need to research it anymore. ;)

300 ArmyWife  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:41:50pm

pssstt...there is a techno thread upstairs. Its all greek to mere: #294 HoosierHoops

Oh don't thank me, you are so good to me about my husband, I am all about supporting our military guys and gals. Besides, those Marine uniforms? Oh baby! Makes you forget they are jarheads! ;)

301 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:42:15pm
302 swamprat  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:42:25pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

You clean up nice.

303 ArmyWife  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:42:26pm

re: #300 ArmyWife

Yikes - a combo quote there. PIMF and then some!

304 J.D.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:42:32pm

re: #300 ArmyWife

Me, too. All I know is it works better!

305 LilyGecko  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:42:33pm

Saw it. Took one look and felt it slipping over my head.
re: #300 ArmyWife

306 elkafir  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:45:17pm

re: #9 Russkilitlover

"The country of Romania takes a big step backwards"? From what? They brought down their dictator and his wife, but after that, they haven't exactly moved to the forefront of progressive government. They seem like they are still serfs.

How easy some people forget the unconditional and total support Romanians gave the United States by sending their troops to fight our Islamic enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan...

307 swamprat  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:45:21pm

re: #231 Killgore Trout

And you make musical instruments. That's more than irony; that's beauty, that is.

308 The Hoopster  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:46:04pm

re: #295 LoFlyer

Ditto Charles! Mini-vacations are a lot better than nothing, but you need something better, like a week long vacation. Use the mini-vacs to build up performance of a assistant web-master and your moderators, then take off for a week! We appreciate all you do and want to keep you "online"!

Did you hear? Did you Hear!
My Lord Loflyer..The most powerful fighting arm of the Marines the 3/5th are not deploying to afganistan next month..they are going to Japan and a cruise somewhere..There are thousands of parents fainting tonight...
Jordan was whinning about having to go on a ship to mom but we could hear the teasing in his voice..he HATES ships..
Something is afoot...why has everything changed? What is going on..

309 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:46:46pm
310 gmsc  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:49:44pm

Gateway Pundit welcome you, and invites you to vomit on yourself by showing you this:

All-Star Hollywood Cast Releases Proposition 8 Musical

All-Star Hollywood Cast Releases Mocks Gay Marriage Opponents in Horrid New Musical.

This is really bad.

(See more Jack Black videos at Funny or Die)

Via Breitbart.
What a bomb.

A gay rights protester holds a sign outside the Mormon Cathedral in Westwood in November.

Blacks overwhelmingly voted for Proposition 8 - banning gay marriage by a ratio of more than 2 to 1.

Related... The Sun-Sentinel reported today that most Americans (69%) favor gay adoptions.

311 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:50:47pm

re: #246 Killgore Trout

...and why not. LOL!

312 ArmyWife  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:50:52pm

re: #246 Killgore Trout

It said it was inappropriate for me

313 LoFlyer  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:51:29pm

re: #308 HoosierHoops

Did you hear? Did you Hear!
My Lord Loflyer..The most powerful fighting arm of the Marines the 3/5th are not deploying to afganistan next month..they are going to Japan and a cruise somewhere..There are thousands of parents fainting tonight...
Jordan was whinning about having to go on a ship to mom but we could hear the teasing in his voice..he HATES ships..
Something is afoot...why has everything changed? What is going on..

Yes I heard and replied mate, but you were so excited that you missed 'me reply. I share in your joy mate, and please pass a "well done" to your son! Thanks!

314 redc1c4  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:53:32pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

If Killgore picked up a nice drinking habit, he could be a new Martini Luthier.

until he stepped on a rusty nail, and the resulting infection turned him into a zombie.

315 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:54:30pm
316 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:55:10pm
317 The Hoopster  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:55:41pm

re: #315 buzzsawmonkey

There is a punchline there somewhere, but I, alas, am missing it.

Well that's a first..I'll mark it down...
/ Hi Buzz!

318 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:56:24pm
319 Russkilitlover  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:57:44pm

re: #306 elkafir

How easy some people forget the unconditional and total support Romanians gave the United States by sending their troops to fight our Islamic enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan...

The Romanian people may give us their support and, for a while, so did their government. But a leopard does not change his spots very easily.

320 The Hoopster  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:58:10pm

re: #318 buzzsawmonkey

Hey, there. I'm kind of preoccupied, and blind tired. So maybe there's some excuse.

There really is no excuse unless it's a knee injury...
/

321 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 6:59:38pm
322 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:00:11pm

re: #169 jcm

Every knows a rocket in space won't work, it has nothing to push against!
//

LMAO!
Just did a bit of research online. The NYT actually said that, hahahahahahaha!

From 1969 correction: "Further investigation and experimentation have confirmed the findings of Isaac Newton in the 17th century and it is now definitely established that a rocket can function in a vacuum as well as in an atmosphere. The Times regrets the error."

323 swamprat  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:01:40pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

That was awful.

324 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:02:28pm
325 elkafir  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:04:32pm

re: #24 Russkilitlover

We (the West) tend to look on Romania as a progressive nation, especially since they dispatched their dictator with such fanfare; however, there is nothing in Romanian recent politics to indicate that this once Soviet-backward country has actually joined the 21st century.

This once Soviet-backward country was never Soviet. You seem to be pretty clueless for such an enlightened intellectual.
As for your claim that they never actually joined the 21st Century, why don't you better look at the pole sticking out from your own eye? Not that Romanians invented the communist ideology that ruined their country and killed millions. You know where that scourge came from, don't you Russkilitlover?

326 elkafir  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:06:42pm

re: #319 Russkilitlover

The Romanian people may give us their support and, for a while, so did their government. But a leopard does not change his spots very easily.

You're right. They're not the most reliable people. But at least you can always count on Russians to be scum.

327 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:07:15pm

re: #278 Iron Fist

That's kind of the point, though. Just as there are some that view adults who play video games as perennial children messing about with toys, there a some that view adults at a target range as arrested development goons still trying to play cowboys and indians. Both points of view are not just wrong, but ignorant, IMAO.

328 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:13:46pm

So why is a THEORY that a 20-something year old came up with after six weeks in the Galapagos islands given so much credence that people will believe that we all evolved from pond scum, lizards and monkeys? Who is really being foolish here?
The FACT of DNA points to a Designer, not blind chance. Do the math!

329 Moe Katz  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:14:38pm

The blogged article heading this thread is notable for its lack of background analysis. At whose behest is this being done? What are the forces for and against evolution teaching in this country?

330 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:15:31pm

re: #44 Charles

But seriously. This new web server is da bomb. At peak traffic time today with more 3,000 online, the load average never got above 0.87. Typical load average for that kind of activity with the old server was in the neighborhood of 4 to 6.

Lower numbers are better, and that's a hell of a percentage.

Charles -

Not only a hell of a percentage, seems to me like HALF an order of Magnitude.

-S-

331 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:17:15pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

I was hoping for something more thorough, like video evidence that illustrated the step-by-step process, from beginning to end, and back again.

332 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:19:28pm

re: #328 ceejaytoo

Gee- maybe evolution is given credence because 150 years of scrutiny and evidence support it. DNA evidence also supports evolution.

Also- you don't know what "theory" means in science apparently.

333 Basho  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:20:37pm

re: #328 ceejaytoo

Who is really being foolish here?

You.

334 Maine's Michael  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:22:07pm

"Romania? That's not a country. It's a profession."

- Attributed to the Emperor Franz Josef.

335 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:33:35pm

re: #328 ceejaytoo

So why is a THEORY that a 20-something year old came up with after six weeks in the Galapagos islands given so much credence that people will believe that we all evolved from pond scum, lizards and monkeys? Who is really being foolish here?
The FACT of DNA points to a Designer, not blind chance. Do the math!


Careful, there buddy. Voicing THAT opinion here may get you booted. The majority of the lizards here are vehemently anti-creationism and will give you copious amounts of grief, down dings and belittling for not accepting their pet theory as fact.

Berating another for not believeing as you do is bad mojo and a sign of insecurity in your own beliefs.

336 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:37:24pm

re: #190 Karridine

Logic? LOGIC? We don' nee' no steenk'n logic!

/we nee' steenk'n FEELINGS! :D

This reminded me of a funny movie clip I saw a few weeks back, and I have been wracking my brain trying to remember the name of the film.

Zombie Strippers (badges clip)

Not to worry, that clip is totally safe for work.

337 Salem  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:40:48pm

Wasn't Romania basically the last country to stop believing in vampires? Or did they ever stop?

338 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:41:41pm

re: #311 garycooper

ha!

339 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:43:47pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

If Killgore picked up a nice drinking habit, he could be a new Martini Luthier.


If? My drinking rank is semi-pro.

340 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:44:16pm

re: #335 fclass308

There are some people posting here who are opposed to creation(ists) who are trying to sneak an end-run around the restrictions on introducing religious doctrines into high school science classes. Creation science was ruled unconstitutional 20 years ago, and the current purveyors of 'intelligent design'
are simply trying to dress it up in a new disguise.

It isn't science; doesn't belong in science class. It would be fine in Philosophy, or comparative Religions, but that's not what the effort of the intelligent design people is focused on.

341 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:44:39pm
342 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:45:59pm

re: #335 fclass308

Berating another for not believeing as you do is bad mojo and a sign of insecurity in your own beliefs.

Here I thought the sign of insecurity in one's beliefs was trying to mask that belief as science to make it more Truthy.

343 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:46:06pm

re: #335 fclass308

I'm thinking anti-idiotarian would have been a much better descriptor than anti-creationism, but what the hell. Pa-tay-toe, Puh-tah-toe, right?

Who cares, as long as we get to keep swinging these over-sized tar brushes around?

/sheesh

344 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:46:37pm

re: #308 HoosierHoops

Did you hear? Did you Hear!
My Lord Loflyer..The most powerful fighting arm of the Marines the 3/5th are not deploying to afganistan next month..they are going to Japan and a cruise somewhere..There are thousands of parents fainting tonight...
Jordan was whinning about having to go on a ship to mom but we could hear the teasing in his voice..he HATES ships..
Something is afoot...why has everything changed? What is going on..

Grats Hoops, very happy to hear.

345 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:49:31pm

re: #341 buzzsawmonkey

I've actually had to cut back recently because I started getting fat. I couldn't figure out why until a realized that I was consuming over 1,000 calories a day in wine for the past decade.

346 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:50:10pm

re: #340 jaunte

Fair points.
My heartburn is with the people who refuse to accept the teaching of both and letting the students decide. Both are theoretical and cannot be absolutely proven.

347 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:50:32pm
348 elkafir  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:50:39pm

re: #337 Salem

Wasn't Romania basically the last country to stop believing in vampires? Or did they ever stop?

No, they were the first country that made tons of money cashing in from foreign tourists who believe the vampires from Bram Stoker's novel really exist. It's an entire traveling industry that flourished there and they are making huge profits from gullible Westerners.

349 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:51:10pm

Everybody knows that not teaching science is only going to cause Romania to go backwards. What is wrong with these people? They need to leave their religion in their Churches.

350 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:51:17pm

re: #342 Sharmuta

Here I thought the sign of insecurity in one's beliefs was trying to mask that belief as science to make it more Truthy.


Nope.

351 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:51:17pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

Darwin said:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ exists which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
Do you know what the "theory" of irreducible complexity is? It is just as valid, as far as theories go, and it trumps Darwin's theory, as he said. Google it and see what it is all about before you discount it out of hand.

352 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #345 Killgore Trout

You got semi-pro ranking for that? I think you cheated, or bribed the judges, or something.
/

353 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:51:53pm

re: #346 fclass308

Two points:
You can't teach a specific religious doctrine in public school; you would have to teach them all.
Science is not about proving something absolutely.

354 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:53:23pm

re: #346 fclass308

You are ignorant.


re: #351 ceejaytoo

Do you know what the "theory" of irreducible complexity is?

Yes, I do. It's called bullshit.

355 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:55:24pm

re: #346 fclass308

While we're at it, let's teach alchemy along with chemistry, astrology along with astronomy, santeria along with medicine, and let the students decide.
/

356 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:56:13pm

Creationists incoming!

357 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:57:12pm

re: #354 Sharmuta

And you are an arrogant blooter.

Quid pro quo, no?

358 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 7:57:57pm
359 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:00:01pm

re: #356 Charles

i would respectfully diagree, Charles. The anti-creationists have started this fight and we who believe otherwise are exercising our right to rebut what we construe as fascist attacks. nothing more, nothing less.

What say you?

360 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:00:19pm
361 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:01:21pm

re: #342 Sharmuta

re: #350 fclass308

I hate to say it Sharmuta, but Fclass is correct there. What you illustrate is not a sign of insecurity. It is certainly a sign of dishonesty, fraud, and a sinister lack of character, but not necessarily a sign of insecurity.

362 ElKafir  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:01:26pm

The clueless creationist who proposed the Big Bang theory.
A Catholic priest? But...but...but that's umpossible!

Talibans are in both camps my friends...

363 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #357 fclass308

The Holocaust- there is much evidence to support the historical fact that it happened, yet there are Holocaust deniers. Perhaps we should present both sides and let the students decide, huh?

I called you ignorant because you are. You can either take the time to enlighten yourself and learn about evolution, or you can wallow in your ignorance.

364 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:02:02pm

Science is hard.

365 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:02:36pm

Fclass, Ceejay, 2 days ago, still a newbie, my Karma was +19. Now it is -180. And I am not a creationist nor an id'ist. And I alone survived to tell thee.

366 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:02:59pm

re: #363 Sharmuta

Did you just compare a belief in the Genesis story to Holocaust denial?

367 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:03:10pm
368 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:03:49pm

re: #367 buzzsawmonkey

I think it meant here on LGF.

369 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:04:09pm

re: #359 fclass308

And there it is! Science refuting creationism is fascist!

Hey, guess what? Nazis banned Darwin. Now who's the fascist?

370 WrathofG-d  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:04:36pm

re: #367 buzzsawmonkey

Furthermore, you cannot deny that very often the discussions here re: Creationism/or I.D. become bashing sessions on religious belief. (ie: not that it shouldn't be taught in school, but that you are an idiot to believe it)

371 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:04:47pm

re: #366 WrathofG-d

No.

372 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:06:22pm
373 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:09:21pm

re: #359 fclass308

What is an 'anti-creationist'? From you're point of view.

374 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:11:08pm
375 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:11:14pm

re: #363 Sharmuta


sharmuta,

I understand evolution just fine, thank you very much.

If you would take off your blinders, you would see that I am not advocating one side or the other... Merely the presentation of both sides of the argument.

what is your problem with that?

I know!...It isn't what you believe!

Hypocrisy defined.

376 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:12:39pm

re: #375 fclass308

My problem is that "teach both sides" is a canard. It's creationist code speak.

377 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:13:30pm

re: #44 Charles
Ahhh... The smell of new iron... or silicon.
Lower numbers... like the homeopath who forgot to take his medicine, and died of an overdose?

378 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:14:11pm

re: #375 fclass308

Both sides of the argument are being presented and discussed.
Just not in high school science class.

379 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:16:11pm

re: #373 Slumbering Behemoth


Behemoth...I define an anti-creationist as someone that refuses to even entertain, let alone accept, the idea that we and the world were created by God.

Plain and simple. Thanks for asking. :)

380 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:17:19pm

re: #379 fclass308

You're aware that the majority of people on this blog accept the veracity of evolution and believe in God both, right?

381 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:17:57pm

re: #379 fclass308

"...the idea that we and the world were created by God..."

This is not what the conflict around this subject is about.

382 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:18:27pm

re: #375 fclass308

Hypocrisy defined.

Yeah, if the D.I. were to get their way, we would see metric tons of 'hypocrisy defined' coming from their supporters the very minute that islamic creation theory got it's slice of the 'let the students decide' science classroom pie.

383 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:20:37pm

Creationists or evolutionists CANNOT PROVE their BELIEFS-- and I want to underline BELIEFS in BOTH cases---what I find to be frustrating is those who are unwilling to look at both sides in a fresh and unbiased manner.

384 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:20:47pm

re: #381 jaunte

"...the idea that we and the world were created by God..."

This is not what the conflict around this subject is about.

But... but... Charles is attacking Christians! That must be what the conflict is about!

///

385 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:21:07pm

re: #380 Sharmuta


Actually, no.

The threads and commentary would indicate otherwise.

But far be it from me, a mere ignorant soul in a sea of enlightened sages, to argue your point.

386 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:21:18pm

re: #384 Sharmuta

Facisti!

387 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:23:30pm

re: #374 Iron Fist

You and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to the importance of firearms. I did not get the impression you were offended, I just wanted to clarify that there are those who think an armed citizenry is irrelevant, and that guns are nothing more than loud toys for overgrown boys.

388 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:23:39pm

re: #383 ceejaytoo

Creationists or evolutionists CANNOT PROVE their BELIEFS-- and I want to underline BELIEFS in BOTH cases---what I find to be frustrating is those who are unwilling to look at both sides in a fresh and unbiased manner.

Hey- guess what? When Charles first started posting on ID- I didn't know what to think. I didn't know much about evolution and didn't see the problem with ID. The more I looked into it, though, the more I realized ID was a problem. I also came to be amazed at the evidence supporting evolution. If you think there isn't any "proof" you're either not looking, or are willfully clinging to your pre-existing beliefs.

389 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:23:39pm

re: #385 fclass308

"a mere ignorant soul in a sea of enlightened sages"

That kind of twistedness is just going to attract more abuse.

390 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:25:02pm

re: #379 fclass308

That sounds much more like an acreationist than an anti-creationist to me.

391 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #388 Sharmuta

Enlighten me.

392 teleskiguy  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:26:32pm

Which would you prefer, a computer or a gun? The sharks outlived the dinosaurs, you know! -The Power of Lard

393 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:27:30pm

re: #383 ceejaytoo

As someone has no doubt told you already, a person does not need to BELIEVE in a scientific theory that comes with mountains of evidence.

394 J.S.  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:27:49pm

Brian Greene in one of his texts (iirc, it was "The Fabric of the Cosmos") devoted his introduction to a quote from Albert Camus (yes, that French existentialist)...Albert Camus suggested in The Myth of Sisyphus (I recall reading the Myth in my teens) that what everything boils down to is whether or not to commit suicide...and that answering the question about suicide was the only "philosophical question" worthy of pursuit...in other words, the queries put forward by physicists were secondary...and an understanding of the universe (or its properties, or how the universe operates) were irrelevant. For Brian Greene, the budding physicist, however, this struck him as "off the mark." (let me get Brian Greene's text)...ah yes, Here is what Greene writes (p. 5): "The overarching lesson that has emerged from scientific inquiry over the last century is that human experience is often a misleading guide to the true nature of reality. Lying just beneath the surface of the everyday is a world we'd hardly recognize...These developments are anything but details. Breakthroughs in physics have forced, and continue to force, dramatic revisions to our conception of the cosmos...And so whereas Camus separated out physical questions and labeled them secondary, I've becomes convinced that they're primary. For me, physical reality both sets the arena and provides the illumination for grappling with Camus' question...By deepening our understanding of the true nature of physical reality, we profoundly reconfigure our sense of ourselves and our experience of the universe." [emphasis added]

395 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:29:33pm

re: #389 jaunte

396 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:30:51pm

re: #391 ceejaytoo

Enlighten me.

On evolution or ID being a problem?

397 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:32:42pm

re: #389 jaunte

Good point.

I think I'll use this as a an excuse to retire for the night.

Thanks to all for the spirited debate. :)

398 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:35:23pm

re: #397 fclass308

Discretion is the better part of valor. Godspeed.

399 fclass308  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #390 Slumbering Behemoth


potaytoe/potahto...it's a matter of perception, my friend.

g'Night all. I am off to compete in a state long range rifle championship in th A.M. and need my rest.

400 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:36:23pm

re: #393 Slumbering Behemoth

When the most insignificant living thing requires nearly 300 pages of a tertiary DNA instructions for its genetic code, the inescapable inference is intelligence, not random chance. The odds of all those exact factors combining in that very specific way are infinitesimal.

401 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:39:29pm
402 sparrowlake  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:42:22pm

We don't teach that the world is flat in science class - not because people believe or do not believe that a God did or did not create the world, but because we believe as a scientific fact that the world is round.

We shouldn't teach that woman was created from Adam's rib in science class - not because people do or do not believe that a God did or did not create woman, but because we believe as a scientific fact that woman was not created from Adam's rib.

To use religious beliefs to legitimize the denial of scientifically proven theories or facts is to seek to negate not only evolutionary theory but to negate and undermine the integrity of the scientific method itself.

403 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:43:53pm

re: #400 ceejaytoo

It certainly is an inference (as opposed to an implication), and one that some do find to be inescapable. But that does not change the observable facts nor the empirical evidence that support the theory of evolution.

Many folks here have said that scripture is the 'why' of creation, evolution is the 'how'. Do you think that those who believe their creator used evolution as a tool of creation are misguided? Full of it?

404 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:44:05pm
405 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:46:02pm

re: #401 payneoftruth

If you go back and read the relevant threads, there is a consistent pattern.

There is an organized political effort to disguise Creation Science in a new disguise "Intelligent Design" and insert a point of view that is religious in origin into high school science class. This is a violation of the Constitution, and will be defeated when lawsuits are brought against the school districts which fall for the ruse.

This is a very bad idea for both science and religion.

406 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:46:28pm
407 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:51:34pm

re: #401 payneoftruth

Is Charles' point of contention that people are intent on having creationism/intelligent design/etc. included in school curriculum or is he troubled that various interest groups are lobbying for the removal of evolution from schools?

What's the difference? Both are doing the same thing- thwarting biology education.

BTW- the islamists support this.

408 sparrowlake  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:53:30pm

re: #400 ceejaytoo

When the most insignificant living thing requires nearly 300 pages of a tertiary DNA instructions for its genetic code, the inescapable inference is intelligence, not random chance. The odds of all those exact factors combining in that very specific way are infinitesimal.

Are the odds of winning the Powerball lottery not practically infinitesmal? Yet there are eventual winners. Odds that seem infinitesmal are, given a sufficient number of tries, a certainty.

409 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:55:10pm

Not to worry, there will always be jobs for Romanians in the EU. No "evolutionist" wants to be the one cleaning the toilets for tourists in Paris.

410 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:55:19pm

There are people on both sides of this issue (the issue of trans-species evolution) in all walks of life with vested interests in the keeping the status quo. There are people on both sides of the issue with sincere belief in their understanding of what they consider the facts. However. Facts and evidence sit there, but they don't come with neatly printed tags that tell us what they mean. It is our belief that colors how we interpret those facts, which ones we conveniently ignore, and which ones we connect to build our edifice. Just because we feel a discussion is settled, or a conclusion beyond dispute, does not mean that it is so.
I don't know if there is anyone who denies micro-evolution, and that adaptation occurs. But again and again this discussion moves beyond what we can observe to origins, and in that both sides move into the numinous. If we do not accept the existence of (a) God, we create something to replace Him.
There are also people on both sides who seem to be... either less skilled in interpersonal relationships, or less willing to invest the energy in being patient with people who might have spent less time looking at the data. On the other hand, some do make it easier than others to forbear.

A word to the hatchlings: if you value your karma, be civil.

411 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:56:43pm

Creationists climbing out of the woodwork!

412 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:58:53pm

re: #410 hillbilly geek

Using a phrase like "trans-species evolution" is a form of begging the question;
it assumes that, for example, evolutionary theory claims that 'man came from apes.' In the evidence found so far, man and apes diverged from a common ancestor.

413 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:59:25pm

Must be a factory somewhere.

414 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 8:59:56pm

Shoot, Charles, I was back to even on my karma! I had to say something!

415 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:00:33pm

re: #413 Charles

Must be a factory somewhere.

Maybe in Romania.

416 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:02:38pm

re: #412 jaunte
You're being picky. Whether we came from apes or not is not the point, and it was not what I said. One species changes into another.

417 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:03:33pm

re: #402 sparrowlake

Science is about evidence, and not shying away from wherever that evidence may lead. You would do well to study the great scientists of old, i.e. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein...all of whom believed in an intelligent designer.Though they could not say anything concrete about that designer , except to marvel at the exactness of the design and the scientific laws evident in that design. All of these men discovered the laws that enabled things to be as they are, and as such are provable.Darwinism is unprovable. No missing links or transitional "species" have ever been found-- they simply don't exist. The Cambrian explosion accounts for all types and kinds of living things.

418 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:04:10pm

re: #416 hillbilly geek

One species changes into another.

That's the part I was pointing out as imprecise as far as the science has shown.

419 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:04:47pm

Somehow, I get the impression that the 'person' who penned this 'stuff' never heard the wise words of Lao Stinky.

/Yes, that's right folks. Science is the tool of Stan, evolution is a religion, and teaching it in schools will make children burn in hell.
//

420 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:05:42pm

And yes, I'm going to post and run. I'm on the right coast, and it's midnight, and I've danced this dance before. Nite, lizzards, nite Charles. Congrats on the server upgrade, seriously.

421 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:05:46pm

re: #417 ceejaytoo

Transitional Fossils FAQ

You might want better talking points.

422 sparrowlake  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:12:08pm

re: #410 hillbilly geek

If we do not accept the existence of (a) God, we create something to replace Him.

If one accepts that man can "create" something to replace God then who can prove that man did not create God?

423 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:12:55pm

re: #410 hillbilly geek

A word to the hatchlings: if you value your karma, be civil.

I realize you've gone, but I have to say this. This discussion isn't about civility. It's about facts. If you're going to join the discussion, bring facts. Be prepared to back up your claims and positions. Be prepared to be challenged if your facts are lacking.

424 Throbert McGee  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:13:42pm

re: #291 Throbert McGee

(I was gonna say "Rumania's only known contribution to popular culture," but then I remembered Vlad Tepes

Just to follow up on this: "Vlad the Impaler" is usually described as being the inspiration for Bram Stoker's Dracula -- both because Vlad had a reputation for impaling his enemies (who were Muslim Turks trying to invade Christian Rumania, although many people forget that little detail) and because he was nicknamed "Drăculea." But in Rumanian, "Drăculea" simply means "son of (the man who was nicknamed) Dracul" -- and his father's nickname "Dracul," in turn, signified nothing more sinister than "a member of the medieval, noblemen-only Christian fraternity known as the Order of the Dragon.")

Anyway, Vlad Drăculea is also known as "Vlad Tepes", or more pedantically "Vlad Ţepeş" with little Rumanian squiggles under the "t" and "s" -- but I found out by Googling tonight that (a) Ţepeş, which I used to think was his last name, just means "the Impaler" in Rumanian, and (b) you say it TSEH-pish.

425 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:14:45pm

re: #419 Slumbering Behemoth

Ouch. Yes, Chick tracts are the equivalent of... well. They're embarrassing.
My theory is that he's really an atheist trying to make us Christians look bad. But most of us do a good enough job on our own.

re: #418 jaunte

Yes, but what is a species but a label we've put on a group of similar animals that don't seem to interbreed with other groups? Man trying to organize his world. That was how... was it Linnaeus? did it early on. Now, we can look at things like DNA...
A dog doesn't know he's a member of a species, all he knows is that this little poodle over there smells reeealy interesting...

Aarrg. Must.. go... leave ... computer...

426 sparrowlake  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:14:56pm

re: #417 ceejaytoo

Science is about evidence, and not shying away from wherever that evidence may lead. You would do well to study the great scientists of old, i.e. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein...all of whom believed in an intelligent designer.Though they could not say anything concrete about that designer , except to marvel at the exactness of the design and the scientific laws evident in that design. All of these men discovered the laws that enabled things to be as they are, and as such are provable.Darwinism is unprovable. No missing links or transitional "species" have ever been found-- they simply don't exist. The Cambrian explosion accounts for all types and kinds of living things.

Show me where any of those scientists stated a belief that God actually created woman from Adam's rib.
Galileo was killed by the religious whackos.

427 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:17:12pm

re: #421 Sharmuta

WTF? Can you redact this into something concise enough to support your point?

428 hillbilly geek  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:17:18pm

re: #426 sparrowlake

Wikipedia article: linky
At the time of Galileo's trial, the dominant view among theologians, philosophers and scientists was that the Earth is stationary, indeed the center of the universe. Galileo's adversaries brought the charge of heresy, then punishable by death, before the Inquisition. Since Galileo recanted, he was only put under house arrest until his death, nine years after the trial.

429 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:18:22pm

re: #421 Sharmuta

What proves that the fauna listed are "transitional" and not one-of -a kind? I have no problem with slight modifications over time--but there should be tons of these transitional "species" in the fossil record-- and they are noticeably absent.

430 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:21:34pm

re: #427 fiat_lux

Science is teh hard.

431 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:22:57pm
"Of course, we recognize today that every single fossil (and every living organism) is by definition transitional - but even under the traditional definition, finding transitional fossils is apparently pretty easy - the hard work is done, and I found over fifty of them in my first hour in a natural history museum that was new to me.

So, people - don’t let them get away with this kind of thing. When you hear a creationist point out that there are no transitional fossils anywhere, please let them know that the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History has over 50 on exhibit that they can find in less than half an hour. If necessary, let them know that they can get to the Smithsonian on the Blue or Orange lines of the DC Metro and see for themselves."


[Link: bluecollarscientist.com...]
Cladistics:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

432 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:23:52pm

re: #429 ceejaytoo

No- they are not noticeably absent. They find more of them constantly.

433 ElKafir  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:24:19pm

re: #409 Naso Tang

Not to worry, there will always be jobs for Romanians in the EU. No "evolutionist" wants to be the one cleaning the toilets for tourists in Paris.

After English, one of the languages heard most often our Microsoft’s Seattle headquarters is Romanian, spoken by our 300 plus Romanians employees. --Bill Gates

Bill Gates knows a thing or two about cleaning toilets...he probably brought the brightest janitors from Eastern Europe to clean the toilets at Microsoft HQ.

434 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:30:36pm

re: #431 jaunte

Wow! They have 50? How many thousands of other "non-transitional" species do they exhibit? It stands to reason that they should have an equal number, don't you think?

435 jaunte  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:32:00pm

re: #434 ceejaytoo

As the item stated, all fossils are transitional. You may be presently inhabiting a future transitional fossil.

436 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:33:19pm

re: #430 Sharmuta

Are trying to say, "science is hard"?

437 sparrowlake  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:34:19pm

re: #428 hillbilly geek

My bad on Galileo's forced recantation under pain of death.
But you have not shown me where one reputable scientist has expressed a belief that woman was created from adam's rib.

438 ceejaytoo  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:35:30pm

re: #435 jaunte

I feel much like a fossil already! Goodnight to one and all. Thanks for the spirited debate and keep on thinking!

439 FlagPony  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:36:07pm

So have you guys figured out yet what came first...the chicken or the egg?

440 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:38:27pm

re: #52 OilIsMastery

(1) Why hasn't the tuatara changed in the past 140 million years even though it's alleged to be the fastest evolving animal?

Their APPEARANCE hasn't changed. Molecular evolution does not necessarily entail morphological evolution.

(2) Why haven't new species emerged with intelligence?

That ecological niche is already occupied - by us.

(3) In what way have sharks and echinoids evolved in the past 400 hundred million years?

They haven't had to. They're already so well tailored for their ecological niches that there are practically no environmental selection pressures on them that would select for mutations from their present baselines.

441 sparrowlake  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:39:06pm

re: #439 FlagPony

So have you guys figured out yet what came first...the chicken or the egg?

Are you serious, or is that a yolk?

442 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:46:36pm

re: #134 Blackwater28

Who cares. They do a horrible job of teaching science in schools anyway. Honestly if they wanted to teach kids about biology they should just force them to read a well written book by a prominent biologist and be done with it. It would probably be a much more enriching experience than the useless crap they taught me in 7th-9th grade science class.

Think how much worse it would be if every page of their biology textbooks simply said GodDidIt...

443 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:47:38pm

re: #429 ceejaytoo

You say this as if you assume that every single thing that ever lived should have become an intact, findable fossil, and that we have somehow found every single one that is out there. There are very specific conditions needed to create and preserve a fossil, and we certainly have not found every one that does exist. Though, new ones are being found still to this day.

Perhaps an analogy. I will use an auto junkyard since that seems to be a popular example with some.

Let's say that many, many millions of years into the future an alien species comes to a desolate Earth, and their scientists find an auto junkyard. In this junkyard, the only recognizable, somewhat intact vehicles left are a first run Model T, a '68 Mustang, and a 91 Tempo.

Should this alien species then conclude that all of these vehicles are completely separate creations, made/invented at the same point in time, rather than interconnected examples of an evolving auto industry? Should they conclude that these are the only types of vehicles every made, or that Ford was the one and only auto manufacturer, rather than develop a theory about the evolution of human transportation? Would they not be foolish to conclude that the Model T was the absolute beginning, and the Tempo the absolute end, of all human transportation?

444 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:48:04pm

re: #139 RickJ

well - I'm not smart enough to follow all that - but how do you feel about kids in school today being fear programmed about super storms and drowned out cities coming all of a sudden any minute now? Thats what science in school is up to. I don't trust the school system all that much.

If public high school science classes are forced to teach religious dogma, I won't trust them at all.

445 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 9:57:43pm

re: #439 FlagPony

So have you guys figured out yet what came first...the chicken or the egg?

The chicken doesn't want to talk about it.

446 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:01:32pm

re: #445 Slumbering Behemoth

Obviously, the proto-chicken came first and then deposited first modern chicken egg.

447 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:06:35pm

re: #277 Karridine

Gary, PLEASE personally thank your father for his service, from me...

I lost my father in July, he repaired planes in war-torn England, same time as your dad...

They won't be here much longer, Sir

I will, K. Hey, you know those B-29's were sort of flying deathtraps, with engine troubles and other mechanical glitches they didn't have time to iron out in the heat of the war. Plus, they took a lot of flak, especially over Okinawa. My Dad had several planes messed-up so bad, they barely made it back to base. Wouldn't it be something, if your Dad worked on planes mine flew in? It's a small world, you never know.

IN other small world news, my Dad's squadron was bombing the hell out of Iwo, while my Dad's brother was fighting to take the island with the Marines. If you know anything about that battle, which I'm sure you do, there was a decent chance my Dad's planes could have killed his own brother with friendly-fire. They used to joke about it after the war, but neither knew where the other was while the campaign was going on. My Dad didn't even know his brother was in the Pacific Theater, and vice-versa.

Sorry about your Dad's passing. You're absolutely right, soon there won't be any WWII vets left. I learned about 95% of what I know of my Dad's service in the last 10 years or so, as he was always of the mindset that it was bad form to tell war-stories. He lost a lot of good friends in the war, saw some heinous things, and really needed to put it behind him after he got home.

Unlike my late uncle, the Marine. He told stories about the war whenever we asked him about it. Most of them are too grisly to relate, on a "family board" like this one. Those battles on Iwo and Okinawa were some of the worst of the entire war, on any front. The part that kills me now, is that my Dad was 21, and my uncle was 19, during their combat tours. Just saving the world and stuff...like our young troops of today.

448 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:07:01pm

Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul
Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution
Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body

I enjoyed all three books and learned a lot. They also spurred me on to read more on the net too. I have quite a few other biology books to get to, but if honest people are curious to learn more on the subject- it's not hard to find good information and inform yourself.

449 garycooper  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:07:55pm

re: #443 Slumbering Behemoth

I like that analogy!

450 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:11:26pm

re: #328 ceejaytoo

So why is a THEORY that a 20-something year old came up with after six weeks in the Galapagos islands given so much credence that people will believe that we all evolved from pond scum, lizards and monkeys? Who is really being foolish here?
The FACT of DNA points to a Designer, not blind chance. Do the math!

Umm...the facts of DNA - namely identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences embedded in identical places on the genome and in identical stages of genetic degradation for different species - point to evolutionary divergence from common ancestors. We can even date when their divergenct speciation occurred by comparing them. After divergence, you have newer (less genetic degradation) and different artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, embedded in different places in the respective genomes, inherited from different ancestors; before divergence, we have older (more genetic degradation) and identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, embedded in identical places in the respective genomes, inherited from common ancestors.

451 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:12:05pm

Other Amazing Sources for learning more about evolution.

452 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:16:28pm

re: #335 fclass308

Careful, there buddy. Voicing THAT opinion here may get you booted. The majority of the lizards here are vehemently anti-creationism and will give you copious amounts of grief, down dings and belittling for not accepting their pet theory as fact.

Berating another for not believeing as you do is bad mojo and a sign of insecurity in your own beliefs.

Evolution is an observed fact; it is the processes by means of which it proceeds that are the theories. And the most basic of those processes - random genetic mutation, nonrandom environmental selection, the inheritance of dominant and recessive traits according to the Mendelian model, DNA as the physical substrate by means of which these traits are encoded and passed on - are about as solid, valid and sound as millions upon millions of empirical data points for them, and none against them, can render them. That is, they are as grounded as anything in science.

453 VioletTiger  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:17:43pm

re: #328 ceejaytoo
Have you actually ever read Darwin? If you do you may discover more depth than just weeks of notes by a 20-something. It's brilliant stuff.

What I can't understand is why you seem to think that the sudden appearance of intelligent life is more plausible and amazing than getting there from primordial soup. You can flip a switch and get a result, but if you set up a million dominoes to fall in order to flip the switch, now that is amazing. My husband is a Darwin/evolution fanatic and he is much more eloquent in his arguments than I am. I must drag him to the computer next time.

454 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:23:01pm

re: #346 fclass308

Fair points.
My heartburn is with the people who refuse to accept the teaching of both and letting the students decide. Both are theoretical and cannot be absolutely proven.

Evolutionary theory is empirical science, supported by a massive amount of empirical evidence, and contradicted by none of it, while Creationism and its Disco Institute faux-sciencey-sounding named PR propaganda equivalent, ID, are religious dogma futilely attempting to masquerade as science, and are supported by not a single datum of empirical evidence - and in fact, Genesis Literalism is contradicted by vast reams of empirical data from genetics, physics (radiometric dating, Big Bang background echo radiation red shift), geology, and a plethora of other fields.

455 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:25:28pm

re: #351 ceejaytoo

Darwin said:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ exists which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
Do you know what the "theory" of irreducible complexity is? It is just as valid, as far as theories go, and it trumps Darwin's theory, as he said. Google it and see what it is all about before you discount it out of hand.

We have past posts on LGF about Ken Miller's refutation, discrediting and debunking of the oft-repeated irreduceable complexity canard. It turns out to be quite reduceable.

456 Summer Seale  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:26:01pm

I'm honestly kind of shocked and offended that the Biblical version of creation is taught in schools.

Everyone with a brain knows that the Gitas are the real story of creation. And I know this because I have faith and it is written down in the Gitas and has never been proven wrong.

Jesus may never have walked the earth. Krisna, however, did.

I know it because it says so in the Gitas. If you don't believe me, you can just read them for yourselves. You're all heretics if you don't believe me and Visnu will burn you in hellfire for it. I know that too because it is also written in the Gitas. And Krisna was a better general than Jesus ever was. It's pretty clear.

Why most of you don't believe this...I really can't fathom. It's so obvious that only the stupid and ignorant choose to disbelieve.

457 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:29:45pm

re: #453 VioletTiger
This was later: Noted by Darwin

In North America the black bear was seen by Hearne swimming for hours with widely open mouth, thus catching, like a whale, insects in the water. Even in so extreme a case as this, if the supply of insects were constant, and if better adapted competitors did not already exist in the country, I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more aquatic in their structure and habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale."

458 picaro  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:32:24pm

"Evolution is an observed fact" -?

Who observed it and for how long? :>)

459 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:32:45pm

re: #359 fclass308

i would respectfully diagree, Charles. The anti-creationists have started this fight and we who believe otherwise are exercising our right to rebut what we construe as fascist attacks. nothing more, nothing less.

What say you?

I say that when you stick belief in one scale and knowledge in the other, knowledge possesses all the weight. And that weight has a name: empirical evidence.

There's nothing fascist about accepting facts. But there's something willfully ignoranty about denying them in order to continue to embrace one's pet feelgood delusion.

But let me break it down for you, fclass; there's NO WAY that a God who didn't fabricate the entire book of nature in order to lie to his creation created the Universe, the earth, and all the tens of millions of existent and extinct species, independently and as is, in the span of six days a few thousand years ago. The empirical evidence against the literal truth of that myth is overwhelming.

460 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:39:41pm

re: #375 fclass308

sharmuta,

I understand evolution just fine, thank you very much.

If you would take off your blinders, you would see that I am not advocating one side or the other... Merely the presentation of both sides of the argument.

what is your problem with that?

I know!...It isn't what you believe!

Hypocrisy defined.

Those who accept evolutionary theory don't have to believe anything; they are led to know that it is the case - that is, they are convinced of its empirical veracity - by a dispassionate and objective perusal of the overwhelming investigatinve and experimental evidence in evolutionary theory's favor. It is those who embrace the religious dogma of genesis literalist creationism who must believe - in the absence of any supporting empirical evidence whatsoever, and in spite of tsunamis of empirical evidence to the contrary.

461 VioletTiger  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:41:15pm

re: #457 fiat_lux

Natural selection on a smaller scale, but observed in the fairly recent past:

A species of moth with a light presentation and a darker presentation. Before the industrial revolution, the lighter color moths are more plentiful because they blend in better on the bark of trees. The birds eat more of the darker moths because they stand out more. Come the smog of the industrial revolution, the tree bark gets darker and the lighter moths become lunch. A simple example, but shows that as conditions change, the most 'fit' survive.

462 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:41:49pm

re: #458 picaro

Heretic! Charles Darwin observed it and reported it 150 years ago. He did not observe it for long but he noted the beak size of finches. And if you disagree you, Sir are worse than Hitler.

463 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:43:27pm

re: #379 fclass308

Behemoth...I define an anti-creationist as someone that refuses to even entertain, let alone accept, the idea that we and the world were created by God.

Plain and simple. Thanks for asking. :)

The idea that we were created out of dust and holy breath a few thousand years ago, with no preceding species from which we evolved, is empirically demonstrable as false, and the DNA evidence resides in every cell of the body of every human being.

464 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:48:36pm

re: #383 ceejaytoo

Creationists or evolutionists CANNOT PROVE their BELIEFS-- and I want to underline BELIEFS in BOTH cases---what I find to be frustrating is those who are unwilling to look at both sides in a fresh and unbiased manner.

Wrong. Empirical science has provided oceans of empirical evidence for evolutionary theory and none that contradicts it; biblical literalist creationism doesn't have jack squat in the way of empirical evidence for it, and reams of empirical evidence against it. So we have the presence of a tsunami of evidence for and the utter absence of evidence against, and then we have no evidence whatsoever for and tankerloads of evidence against. Looks like a no-brainer to me. But then again, I refuse to allow my emotion to override my intellection on the issue.

465 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:49:54pm

re: #385 fclass308

Actually, no.

The threads and commentary would indicate otherwise.

But far be it from me, a mere ignorant soul in a sea of enlightened sages, to argue your point.

On this issue, you have been leading with your ignorance more than an 0 for 40 boxer leads with his chin.

466 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:51:43pm
467 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:54:36pm

My Karma is down another 4 points.I guess Slhrmuta is still displeassd with me. She might be preparing another fusillade of links she does'nt understand.

468 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 10:57:08pm

re: #400 ceejaytoo

When the most insignificant living thing requires nearly 300 pages of a tertiary DNA instructions for its genetic code, the inescapable inference is intelligence, not random chance. The odds of all those exact factors combining in that very specific way are infinitesimal.

First, although genetic mutation is random, environmental selection is nonrandom. Second, each successful mutation forms the new baseline from which further mutations arise, so the process aggregates. And third, 3 1/2 billion years is plenty of time for such a process to result in the plethora of terrestrial species, both existent and extinct, that have inhabited and do inhabit our earth.

Plenty of mutations did NOT combine genetic elements in ways that allowed their hosts to successfullt explot their ecological niches - so they died off before they could reproduce. That's how environmental selection works.

469 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:00:03pm

re: #401 payneoftruth

i must admit that I'm a bit confused. Is Charles' point of contention that people are intent on having creationism/intelligent design/etc. included in school curriculum or is he troubled that various interest groups are lobbying for the removal of evolution from schools?

In much more succinct form - I deduce from Charles' choice of articles selected on the subject that he is a proponent of evolution. From this, I wonder if he wishes to promote godless evolution, macro evolution (all living species having a common ancestor), or the understanding that evolution allows living organisms to cope with changes in environment (micro evolution)?

It's a matter of wanting science, and ONLY science, to be taught in pubnlic high school science class. Religion has no place there. And evolutionary theory has nothing to say one way or another concerning the existence or nonexistence of any deity; it just doesn't employ supernatural explanations for natural phenomena. Because it's science, not religion.

470 picaro  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:00:11pm

re: #462 fiat_lux

Finch beaks? In my town we observe legislators evolve into snakes!

Or is it the other way around?

471 Mr Secul  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:03:59pm

re: #76 redc1c4

sharks are the perfect killing machine in their environment... what pressure is there for them to change?

(not that you can respond to this... %-)

My first hit when googling shark evolution led to this and this.

If anyone actually cared enough they could find plenty on shark evolution but I'm sure that the original poster didn't care and didn't want to know the answers to his questions.

472 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:06:05pm

re: #461 VioletTiger

You mean where dead moths were sutck to tree trunks to illustrate the point and then photographed? Look it up. What does this have to do with Darwin, pbuh, who tried to explain how terrestrial creatures returned to the sea?

473 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:11:00pm

re: #417 ceejaytoo

Science is about evidence, and not shying away from wherever that evidence may lead. You would do well to study the great scientists of old, i.e. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein...all of whom believed in an intelligent designer.Though they could not say anything concrete about that designer , except to marvel at the exactness of the design and the scientific laws evident in that design. All of these men discovered the laws that enabled things to be as they are, and as such are provable.Darwinism is unprovable. No missing links or transitional "species" have ever been found-- they simply don't exist. The Cambrian explosion accounts for all types and kinds of living things.

Copernicus, Galileo and Newton died before Darwin was born, so they had no chance to evaluate his theories, besides which, they were astronomers and physicists, and not bioscientists. Einstein was a physicist, too, but you misrepresent him. He was merely stating a disbelief in fundamental indeterminacy. And Richard Feynmann and quantum mechanics proved him to be wrong about this.

Here's some Einstein quotes for you:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.

474 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:12:11pm

re: #470 picaro

Either way, it bodes not well for the snake.

475 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:15:58pm

re: #425 hillbilly geek

Ouch. Yes, Chick tracts are the equivalent of... well. They're embarrassing.
My theory is that he's really an atheist trying to make us Christians look bad. But most of us do a good enough job on our own.

re: #418 jaunte

Yes, but what is a species but a label we've put on a group of similar animals that don't seem to interbreed with other groups? Man trying to organize his world. That was how... was it Linnaeus? did it early on. Now, we can look at things like DNA...
A dog doesn't know he's a member of a species, all he knows is that this little poodle over there smells reeealy interesting...

Aarrg. Must.. go... leave ... computer...

Are lions and tigers separate species? What about horses and donkeys? They can interbreed, but the offspring (ligers & tigons, mules)are sterile.

I consider them to be different specis, just not as different as, say, a box turtle and a vampire bat, which could never produce even sterile progeny between them. In fact, even trying to picture them mating is an exercise in imaginative hilarity.

476 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:18:35pm

re: #426 sparrowlake

Show me where any of those scientists stated a belief that God actually created woman from Adam's rib.
Galileo was killed by the religious whackos.

Actually, the Catholic Church permitted Galileo to live, once he publicly, if insincerely, recanted his theory that the earth revolved around the sun, rather than vice-versa, which was the received ecclesiastical wisdom of the time. Giordano Bruno, however, was not so lucky; him, the Church roasted.

477 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:18:35pm

re: #471 Mr Secul

OilsMastery is gone. He cannot respond.

478 Mr Secul  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:21:06pm

re: #328 ceejaytoo

The FACT of DNA points to a Designer, not blind chance. Do the math!

Please explain it to us. What math?

479 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:21:11pm

re: #429 ceejaytoo

What proves that the fauna listed are "transitional" and not one-of -a kind? I have no problem with slight modifications over time--but there should be tons of these transitional "species" in the fossil record-- and they are noticeably absent.

There are fossil skeletons before and after them, into which configurational links they fit (so the links are no longer missing). It's a smooth sequential morphing between them.

480 Catttt  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:24:12pm

re: #172 Charles

Get ready for the cuteness factor turned up to 10. Still a great game with realistic momentum/inertia modeling, and highly creative graphics.

Arrrghhh - cuteness!

Heh.

I really prefer noncuteness - like post-Apocalyptic games where you wind up in the sewer fighting atomic rats. Stuff like that.

481 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:27:23pm

re: #478 Mr Secul


ceejay is gone for the night and won't respond for awhile. I am here. Do you have any more amusing links like the unmistakable transitional octopus? Or the turtle. loved that. It had teeth.

482 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:33:31pm

re: #478 Mr Secul

Please explain it to us. What math?

Maybe he means this math...;~)

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

Scroll down to this section:

1.2.3 Statistical impossibility of proteins?

483 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:35:22pm

re: #467 fiat_lux

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

484 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:37:39pm

re: #458 picaro

"Evolution is an observed fact" -?

Who observed it and for how long? :>)

Richard Lenski, in a laboratory, under controlled conditions, and repeatable at will:

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

485 Throbert McGee  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:38:22pm

re: #480 Cattt

I really prefer noncuteness - like post-Apocalyptic games where you wind up in the sewer fighting atomic rats. Stuff like that.

And what's wrong with "Hello Kitty's Island Adventure"?

/Butters

486 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:38:36pm

re: #484 Salamantis

Don't forget Nylonase.

487 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:40:27pm

re: #483 Sharmuta

Why don't you ask an adherent to i.d.?

488 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:41:46pm

re: #467 fiat_lux

It's called "projection". You were the one who posted "WTF?", not me.

489 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:42:08pm

re: #487 fiat_lux

I'm asking you.

490 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:42:09pm

re: #457 fiat_lux

This was later: Noted by Darwin

In North America the black bear was seen by Hearne swimming for hours with widely open mouth, thus catching, like a whale, insects in the water. Even in so extreme a case as this, if the supply of insects were constant, and if better adapted competitors did not already exist in the country, I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more aquatic in their structure and habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale."

Well, they weren't bears, but land mammals did indeed eventually return to the sea, as whales and dolphins.

491 fiat_lux  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:46:50pm

re: #484 Salamantis

If you don't understand it, provide a link without comment.

492 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:47:46pm

You might wanna check again, picaro; there might be a post or two of mine that you haven't gratuitously downdinged yet without any response whatsoever...;~)

493 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:51:05pm

re: #480 Cattt

I really prefer noncuteness - like post-Apocalyptic games where you wind up in the sewer fighting atomic rats. Stuff like that.

I think I love you.

I take it you're a fan of Fallout?

494 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:52:57pm

re: #493 Slumbering Behemoth

I mean, this Fallout.

495 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:54:05pm

re: #491 fiat_lux

If you don't understand it, provide a link without comment.

I understand all about how one of 12 populations of e coli spontaneously evolved an ability to metabolize citric acid around generation # 31,500. Which is unusual, considering that an inability to metabolize citric acid is one of the identifying characteristics of e coli. I also understand that Lenski was in the habit of periodically saving and freezing generations from all of his flasks. So he can get representatives of the generation in the flask that evolved, before the point that it evolved, and allow it to reproduce through generations, and the selfsame evolution happens. But not in generations tapped from the other eleven flasks. And they all originally were cultured from the selfsame e coli stock.

496 picaro  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:54:31pm

re: #484 Salamantis

G_d, who has a sense of humor around here?

It appears that Lenski's E. coli evolved into ... wait for it ...

E. coli! But with tighter DNA coils.

An experiment in microevolution, of course.

Good night all!

497 Hillbilly Mike  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:55:20pm

Actually, most people I know think that would be a big step Forward.
Evolution is a big shit sandwich. Eat it if you want to, but don't force it on the rest of us.
LGF is going to lose readers because of this disrespect for our Creator.
Why not just shut up about it for a while and get on with other more important things? Tired of hearing about this shit every day! Had to drop LGF as a homepage over this trivial bullshit excuse for news.

498 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:56:12pm

re: #455 Salamantis

We have past posts on LGF about Ken Miller's refutation, discrediting and debunking of the oft-repeated irreduceable complexity canard. It turns out to be quite reduceable.

Here is an excerpt.

499 teleskiguy  Wed, Dec 3, 2008 11:56:56pm

Now I don't necessarily agree with te guy's politics and movie reviews, he's pretty dead-on with this review of Ben Stein's "documentary" EXPELLED. This should be a nice addition to this discussion.
[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]

500 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:02:16am

re: #497 Hillbilly Mike

Sorry about your fundamental distress, but a lot of us are quite dismayed at the ongoing attempts of Disco Institute shills to indoctrinate the naive gullible credulous young minds of other peoples' kids with their sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science class, and what it would mean for our nation's future should they succeed in dismantling the scientific edifice and erecting the church of their choice in its place. And we hate to see such blatant abject and utterly willful ignorance spreading anywhere around the globe. Because we're compassionate conservatives. And we care about our fellow human beings, and whether they're taught science in their science classes, or fed religion there.

501 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:03:46am

re: #497 Hillbilly Mike

What. A. Hoot.

Seven comments in more than a year? I'm sure we'll find a way to carry on without you.

502 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:06:36am

re: #496 picaro

G_d, who has a sense of humor around here?

It appears that Lenski's E. coli evolved into ... wait for it ...

E. coli! But with tighter DNA coils.

An experiment in microevolution, of course.

Good night all!

It's the bacterial equivalent of evolving, from human stock, a species with lizard scales for skin, that can drink strychnine from a Mason jar and piss arsenic, while rebuilding engine blocks with the energy thusly derived.

503 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:09:57am

re: #488 Sharmuta

Projection? I just went back to my wtf post and I asked you to explain. Projection would be if posted a bunch of crap and expected you to sort it out. You have no idea what you're talking about so you post links without being able to summarize them.

504 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:10:48am

Picaro has been here for 15 months, but only has a karma of -11 on a grand total of 29 posts. If your character can be measured by that of your detractors, mine must be in pretty good shape.

505 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:14:03am

re: #503 fiat_lux

So- you expect me to spoon feed you? Very well.

That link was a link to a partial list of transitional fossils, mostly those of more recent species. It includes the fossil's scientific name and also lists where it fits in the tree of life.

506 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:14:08am

re: #490 Salamantis

In just that manner? Whales and dolphins. Fill me in on this. Why, and how did they do such a thing?

507 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:15:11am

re: #506 fiat_lux

Image: 91174851.jpg

508 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:17:32am

re: #505 Sharmuta

No you don't know what you are talking about so you link to anything that will bolster you lack of knowledge.

509 Throbert McGee  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:17:58am

re: #475 Salamantis

I consider them to be different species, just not as different as, say, a box turtle and a vampire bat, which could never produce even sterile progeny between them. In fact, even trying to picture them mating is an exercise in imaginative hilarity.

Way to be judgmental about other people's families, hater!

JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION, my mommy is a box turtle (Terrapene carolina)and my daddy is a vampire bat (Desmodus rotundus) and mommy's girlfriend/co-parent is a spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta) and my nanny is made of dry macaroni, pipe cleaners, and plastic wiggly eyes but we are a perfectly normal family (except that Mommy and Daddy and Co-Mommy feel guilty sometimes because Nanny is illegal which is the reason (aside from being made of macaroni) that she works so cheap, and plus she hardly speaks English (she is made from Mexican macaroni in the Goya aisle) so what would happen to me if there was a fire or something while Mommy, Daddy, and Co-Mommy were all at work (Co-Mommy is CEO and President of a hyena bookstore for feminist/progressive hyenas)), so there!

P.S. I am so totally telling on you in progressive kindergarten tomorrow...

510 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:19:44am

re: #507 Sharmuta

Appears to be a baby being fed, but I am sure I have misinterpreted it.

511 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:19:53am

re: #505 Sharmuta

WTF? Can you redact this into something concise enough to support your point?

/Spoon feed me!
//:cries the parasite:

512 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:22:00am

re: #508 fiat_lux

Prove me wrong then. Prove that link is not a link to a partial list of transitional fossils. Prove those fossils are not transitional, or something. But you'll have to do better than, "You're wrong because I said so". Show me where I have erred, and I will reconsider.

513 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:25:00am

re: #506 fiat_lux

[Link: www.agiweb.org...]

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

[Link: www.pandasthumb.org...]

[Link: www.actionbioscience.org...]

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

[Link: findarticles.com...]

Feeding with a big spoon...

514 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:25:23am

re: #511 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes- maybe I should have linked to easier reading earlier.

515 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:27:50am

re: #508 fiat_lux

I get it now, you're a hardcore, leftist progressive. In your world day is night, up is down, and anyone who supports their arguments with factual citations is displaying a lack of knowledge.

I wonder, do zombies prefer the taste of brains twisted into a pretzel shape?

516 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:31:28am

re: #511 Slumbering Behemoth

Anything to contribute? Intellectually I mean. No?

517 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:32:34am

re: #516 fiat_lux

It's called "projection".

518 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:35:08am

re: #513 Salamantis

Lot's of links.Understand any of them? No?. I thought not.

519 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:35:56am

re: #516 fiat_lux

Right. Like you could tell the difference, a person who considers factual citations to indicate a lack of knowledge. Your request for an intellectual contribution is laughable.

520 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:37:35am

re: #517 Sharmuta

Didn't you already do the projection thing? No? I apologize.

521 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:37:49am

re: #518 fiat_lux

Lot's of links.Understand any of them? No?. I thought not.

Yes, I understand that these land animals began feeding in the water, and those that were better able to get around in it were environmentally selected, since they didn't starve before they could reproduce. Rinse and repeat, through millions of generations.

522 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:39:07am

That would make seals, sea lions, otters and manatees/dugongs transitional forms.

523 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:40:00am

But ALL forms are transitional. Evolution never ends.

524 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:40:26am

re: #518 fiat_lux

Lot's of links provided for you, at your request. Did you read any of them? No? I thought not. You don't appear to have the intellectual honesty to do so, nor the competence to understand what you were reading if you had.

You're obviously just a troll. Later.

525 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:40:47am

re: #519 Slumbering Behemoth

You, behemoth, should stay out of this because you do not understand the issues involved.

526 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:46:59am

re: #525 fiat_lux

Why don't you explain the issues involved for us. Please provide links and detailed analysis of said link(s). Thanks.

527 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:47:00am

re: #490 Salamantis

I am trying to keep up with the Darwin idiocy but I have lost track to whom I am responding . I you believe in darwin god bless you, if you believe darwin is a moron god bless you.

528 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:47:23am

re: #525 fiat_lux

Every time you have claimed that I didn't understand something, I have proven to you that I did. You, however, have yet to prove that you understand any of it. Or that you even want to.

529 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:49:47am

re: #527 fiat_lux

I am trying to keep up with the Darwin idiocy but I have lost track to whom I am responding . I you believe in darwin god bless you, if you believe darwin is a moron god bless you.

For you to call evolution idiocy is like a flat earther telling Magellan that his circumnavigation of the globe was bullshit.

530 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:50:51am

Feed a cold, starve a flu. Feed a troll, starve a brain.

G'nite Lizards.

531 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:51:39am

re: #530 Slumbering Behemoth

Good night, Sleepy B. We'll save you some gamey buttocks.

532 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:57:54am

Sharm, you're crushing me on total karma...but I'm quite a bit ahead on my karma per comment ratio...hehe...

Like it matters a crap to me. You've seen me defend unpopular positions here, and damn the downdings...;~)

I post my considered opinion, regardless of how I think it might be received.

533 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:00:06am

re: #529 Salamantis
We can do without slumbering behemeth. He seems to feed a troll. Salamantis, what are you and your idioitic mustache talking about?

534 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:04:02am

re: #533 fiat_lux

We can do without slumbering behemeth. He seems to feed a troll. Salamantis, what are you and your idioitic mustache talking about?

A quite reasonable analogy, which apparently dismays you precisely because it IS reasonable, and because it involves you.

And I hope that SB's absence doesn't starve you any.

535 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:06:53am

Hey My Karma is to - 213!

536 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:09:25am

re: #534 Salamantis

I do not depend on SB for substsence.

537 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:09:27am

re: #535 fiat_lux

Hey My Karma is to - 213!

And most richly merited and deserved it is. You can be justly proud of your Parthian efforts to defend the citadels of religious dogma against the onslaught of empirical science.

538 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:14:09am

re: #537 Salamantis

And most richly merited and deserved it is. You can be justly proud of your Parthian efforts to defend the citadels of religious dogma against the onslaught of empirical science.

Let me adjectivize that...

And most richly merited and deserved it is. You can be justly proud of your Parthian efforts to defend the sacred citadels of religious dogma against the profane onslaught of empirical science.

Improved. Evolved. Better fitting its target niche.

539 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:14:25am

re: #537 Salamantis

Gee. I have no religious beliefs, But I accept the award because... Well, I love empirical science. I just don't like it lock-step with dogma.

540 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:18:19am

re: #539 fiat_lux

Yeah... what's the name of the scientific theory in competition with evolution again? Can you provide us with a link to that thesis? Please provide detailed analysis of the link too.

541 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:20:32am

Where is Sharmuta? She was very brave when she had Rancher backing her up.

542 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:21:14am

re: #539 fiat_lux

Gee. I have no religious beliefs, But I accept the award because... Well, I love empirical science. I just don't like it lock-step with dogma.

How can you love something you don't understand? For, if you consider empirical science to be dogmatic, that is apodictic evidence of a lack of comprehension.

Dogmas, of which religious dogmas are an almost circumscribing subset, can never augment, eleborate, refine or improve to assimilate or accommodate itself to advances in experiment and investigation based understanding. But empirical science can do, and does do, all of these things. This is precisely empiricism's strength, and dogma's weakness.

543 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:26:10am

re: #540 Sharmuta

Ah ,speak of the devil, she appears. She is asking about the scientific theory
in competition with evolution. And want's links.

544 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:29:02am

re: #543 fiat_lux

And there you are with more absolutely nothing.

545 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:29:07am

re: #543 fiat_lux

Ah ,speak of the devil, she appears. She is asking about the scientific theory
in competition with evolution. And want's links.

None of which you can provide.

546 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:30:41am

re: #542 Salamantis

Butt face, I understand science.You don't. You accept whatever comes down the pike.Ifeel sorry for you.

547 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:33:17am

re: #546 fiat_lux

I understand science.

I don't believe you.

548 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:33:36am

I've noticed that you are big on demanding supporting evidence, and even bigger on gratuitously dismissing or ignoring it when it is provided to you, but a complete no-show when it comes to providing requested evidence of your own.

Which is completely understandable, seeing as all the empirical evidence is on evolution's side.

549 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:37:13am

re: #546 fiat_lux

Butt face, I understand science.You don't. You accept whatever comes down the pike.Ifeel sorry for you.

If you actually understood science like you claim you do, you would be endeavoring to provide empirical support for your anti-evolutionary contentions.

Instead, you descend into illegitimate ad hominems - the final nonrefuge of those who have no credible arguments to offer.

550 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:39:12am

re: #547 Sharmuta

Sharmuta , I believe you. I also believe you are a moron. You have no idea what you are posting, but it looks impressive to the uninitiated.

551 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:41:26am

re: #550 fiat_lux

Sharmuta , I believe you. I also believe you are a moron. You have no idea what you are posting, but it looks impressive to the uninitiated.

Like I said - gratuitous ad hominems - a 2500 year old greek logical fallacy, and the last faux resort of those whose emotion trumps their intellection.

552 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:48:44am

re: #549 Salamantis
Ad Hominems? That is crap. I have endeavored, from the beginning, to dispute Darwin. I have been met with calumny and other abuse with no actual refutation of my my position just attacks from Sharmuta and Rancher who have no idea what they are talking about .There idea of a refutation is provide links they don't understand..

553 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:54:59am

re: #552 fiat_lux

No, no- the problem is links have been provided in which YOU don't understand.

You claim to not believe Darwin, but provide nothing at all to back up your position, you just demand that others back up why they accept evolution and when they do so, you dismiss it out of hand.

You are here to do nothing but insult and dismiss anyone supporting evolution while playing innocent- which, btw, no one is buying.

You are a classic troll, and I would put you on GAZE again, but I'm bored.

554 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:55:42am

re: #552 fiat_lux

Ad Hominems? That is crap. I have endeavored, from the beginning, to dispute Darwin. I have been met with calumny and other abuse with no actual refutation of my my position just attacks from Sharmuta and Rancher who have no idea what they are talking about .There idea of a refutation is provide links they don't understand..

Your usage of the terms devil, moron and butt face resemble the ravings of a fundamentalist child far more than they do the considered debate of an interlocuter possessed of a modicum of personal integrity. I have repeatedly refuted your bogus contentions, and you have only been able to willfully dismiss or ignore my refutations with no credible basis whatsoever provided. And at every turn, I have not only provided you with requested links, but demonstrated an understanding of their import that you have never even attempted to evince.

You are well and truly busted.

555 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:09:27am

You have refuted nothing. I must retire now with you permission we will resume this later. Also speak of the devil is an expression. I most certainly do not believe that Sharmuta is the devil, if that is how you interpreted it.

556 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:14:03am

re: #555 fiat_lux

You have refuted nothing.

Indeed- you've offered nothing and it's hard to refute that.

Meanwhile, we've given links to support our position of evolution's veracity and you haven't done a thing to refute any of them except to question our understanding of the material.

557 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:14:49am

re: #555 fiat_lux

You have refuted nothing. I must retire now with you permission we will resume this later. Also speak of the devil is an expression. I most certainly do not believe that Sharmuta is the devil, if that is how you interpreted it.

You have offered nothing to refute, but only engaged in impotent sniping and whingeing. I, on the other hand, have offered much, and you have failed to refute a single whit of it.

Precisely what I expected. I have seen it here many times before.

558 Hillbilly Mike  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:19:23am

re: #501 Sleeping Byamoth

Here is #8:

Those who disagree with evolution being forced on school kids (and teachers) are many.
We can get along without you too.

Go Pound Sand Up Your Darwinistic Ass! Bitch!

Hoot! Hoot! Hoot!

559 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:26:03am

re: #558 Hillbilly Mike

What an incredibly logical, well reasoned argument. I'm sure when Slumbering Behemoth sees it, he'll completely disavow evolution, all thanks to you.

560 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:26:20am

re: #558 Hillbilly Mike

re: #501 Sleeping Byamoth

Here is #8:

Those who disagree with evolution being forced on school kids (and teachers) are many.
We can get along without you too.

Go Pound Sand Up Your Darwinistic Ass! Bitch!

Hoot! Hoot! Hoot!

Hillbilly Mike

Karma: -13
Registered since: Sep 15, 2007 at 8:28 pm

No. of comments posted: 8
No. of links posted: 0

Your tenure, comment total, and karma eminently befit your comment.

I tend to give peoples' opinions all of the consideration that they legitimately merit and deserve, which, in your case, is none at all.

This is America. We have a Constitution that includes a Bill of Rights, the first of which guarantees religious freedom. You don't get to force your sectarian religious dogmas upon the children of unwilling others in public high school science class here. If you want to do that, then move to Saudi Arabia or Iran. Or, apparently now, Romania.

561 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:41:52am

re: #557 Salamantis
I dont know what a whingeing is. I don't if I am guilty or not,.

562 EE  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:13:40am

Evolution and survival of the fittest is very much part of what is happening today in mankind's fight against dangerous micro-organisms. How else does one explain MRSA (methicillin-resistant staph. aureus)?

To close one's eyes to this just seems ridiculous.

563 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:05am

re: #561 fiat_lux

I dont know what a whingeing is. I don't if I am guilty or not,.

It's whining, and yes, you're guilty of it.

564 Nemesis6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:23:36am

I'm seeing all kinds of crap in this thread. Quotemining - Ceejaytoo. Victimhood - fclass308. And most annoyingly, diversions - Wrathofgod. Boneheaded arrogance - fiat_lux


By the way: Can't we ban anyone who uses the pretend-word "evolutionism"? Anyone uttering this word cannot be reasoned with and should be kept out of these debates, because they're the primary reason that they get side-tracked. I have no idea how web design works, but if LGF had an announcement system, it could serve the purpose of serving up notices to anyone typing that word that there is no "evolutionism/ists", only "SCIENTISTS".

But of course, "science leads you to killing people" and then we're back to squad fucking zero. Ugh.

565 Nemesis6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:24:42am

correction: square one :D

566 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:33:58am

re: #351 ceejaytoo

Darwin said:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ exists which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
Do you know what the "theory" of irreducible complexity is?

Yes we do. Did you watch the video here?

Irreducible complexity is an old Creation Science idea rehashed to remove the Christianity.

But lets ignore that for now.

IC is not a theory, at best its a hypothesis. Its obviously not crafted to explain anything. Its a transparent attempt to construct a disproof of the TOE.

But lets treat it as a simple hypothesis. My biggest reservation with doing that is I'm not sure how IC can be falsified but I'll return to that at the end.

Behe gave examples of irreducible systems.

Evolutionary theory predicted that the parts of Behe's example systems would have purposes of their own and therefore the examples could be produced via natural selection.

Irreducible complexity predicted that Behe's examples would not have parts that would have their own functions, separate from the whole. This is testable for Behe's example systems.

So we could directly compare the predictions from TOE and IC.

This was done years ago (Google for the dates).

It was found that all Behe's examples had parts that performed other roles and could therefore be selected for.

IC's predictions were directly tested against TOE's predictions. IC failed the test and TOE passed the test.

This is why scientists don't bother with the IC hypothesis. It can be ignored until someone actually finds a genuine example of IC.

It is just as valid, as far as theories go

,

Untrue. It was never a theory and all Behe's examples failed testing years ago. Its old news except to those who never listen.

and it trumps Darwin's theory,

No it lost in a head to head comparison in all Behe's examples.

But then it failed under its own terms. Its central prediction turned out to be false in every example that Behe gave.

Google it and see what it is all about before you discount it out of hand.

Did that years ago, found out what it was all about, realized that it was bunk, worked out its weaknesses, found links to data that showed that IC was false, wasn't surprised.

Although we have never found a real example of IC, it may be possible that such systems exist but its up to the proponents of IC to produce real examples.

Its ignored by scientists because its failed all tests so far and makes no useful predictions.

I think that to a scientist, IC's lack of utility is its greatest drawback. But failing all tests hasn't helped either.

567 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:34:47am

I don't think I've ever seen arizona9, DanThePainter, dcbatlle, rboa, RJ77, or winston06 ever post a comment on these threads, but they often seem to show up to ding their opposition to the whole discussion.
Maybe they're not skilled at typing.

568 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:38:54am

re: #567 jaunte

I don't think I've ever seen arizona9, DanThePainter, dcbatlle, rboa, RJ77, or winston06 ever post a comment on these threads, but they often seem to show up to ding their opposition to the whole discussion.
Maybe they're not skilled at typing.

That's the silent evolution-hating crew. All they do is ding down posts on evolution.

I urge everyone who likes these posts to hit the + button, because it really pisses off the haters.

569 Catttt  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:39:36am

re: #493 Slumbering Behemoth

I think I love you.

I take it you're a fan of Fallout?

:D

I like this one - Neocron - it's a MMORPG. It's German - they have two German servers and two English servers. From a review: "Nuts, I still have to kill 50 more rats before I can level up." Heh.

I'm curious about Anarchy Online - similar. It's free - uses online ads for income.

570 geoffputerbaugh  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:47:55am

This whole discussion puzzles me. On one side, you have the Religious, who claim that God created the world, and who find the theory of evolution incredible. On the other side, of course, are those who pay attention to the development of science, and to the development of the theory of evolution, and who find the theory of Divine Creation incredible.

Getting back to Romania: it is an extremely religious (Christian) country. Have a look at the "CIA World Factbook." Until 1865 (!), Romania was ruled by the Ottoman Turks. Considering the well-known reputation of the Ottoman Turks for square-dealing and fairness (for example, kidnapping Christian boys to serve in the harem of the Sultan)...it is not too surprising to find Romanian thinking where it is now. Add in the horrible rule of CEAUSESCU, and you wind up with a country which is horrified by (for example) gay men and the theory of evolution.

Hopefully, they'll grow up one of these days.

571 ruffy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:55:05am

Our good friend at LGF is a hard-core evolutionist, this we see as he is, after "scientifically" keen, knowing how to fine-tune servers, and reads good books on programming with DOM and javascript and ajax. It's all within his "scientific" mindset. This even though there is no - read NO - evidence to prove, let alone support, the evolutionary hypothesis. He always breates us creationists, if the number of such articles relating to this issue are counted. It has for him about as much weight as does world terrorism.

The theory of evolution is nothing but a theory, long discredited.
Take the simple fact that, as Ray Kurzweil points out, humans have not undergone any significant changes for some 30,000 years. Well then,
why then does human history only take us back to 3 or 4 millennnia - at most? Were we still monkey-like until only 4,000 years ago, that we couldn't figure out how to communicate in writing until then?

Another salient point: If to evolve from A to B takes many steps, where each step SUCCEEDS to exists and supplant its predecessor, well why do we have to rely on a once-in-a-blue-moon "fossil finding" reported by NewYorkTimes "scientific" editor to reveal the missing intermediate fossil evidence; Why, if every intermediate step is a measure of survival of the fittest, are these fit intermediates practically extinct?

I like the LGF site, but no one is perfect. Let Charles if wants to, beat the Creationists. The truth in the end shall win.

572 geoffputerbaugh  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:02:02am

"Hard-core evolutionist?" If that means believing that Divine Creation is a myth, count me in!

573 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:02:34am

re: #570 geoffputerbaugh

You know what puzzles me? People who can't grasp that evolution and God can exist together. Maybe it's just me- I try not to define God too much, try not to limit what is and what is not possible with God. I feel it's just not my place. Who the hell am I to tell God that evolution is a mechanism not available to Him?

Creationists are free to think what they want in this country. They are not free to disguise their religion as science and push it off on other people's kids, though. And honestly- that's a really bad way to promote the faith- through lying. They should be ashamed of themselves.

574 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:02:40am

re: #571 ruffy

You people are just relentless with your absolute nonsense. Statements like:

This even though there is no - read NO - evidence to prove, let alone support, the evolutionary hypothesis.

...are not just wrong, they're ludicrous, and blazingly ignorant. It's like children covering their ears and screaming "I can't hear you! Lalalalala!"

575 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:03:05am

re: #571 ruffy

Study and learn.

576 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:08:41am

re: #571 ruffy

I love the "it's just a theory" comments. When people like you say "it's just a theory", it shows exactly how stupid and ignorant you really are. It's amusing really because I think people like you should be in a museum. =)

577 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:10:01am

re: #523 Salamantis

But ALL forms are transitional. Evolution never ends.

That is the bottom line.

All fossils are transitional, all living organisms are transitional.

As long as they leave offspring...

578 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:14:13am

re: #572 geoffputerbaugh

Perhaps I misunderstood your comment, so forgive me for my reply. However- the same black and white, either/or thinking the creationists do is what I saw in your comment, so I stand by what I said concerning my puzzlement that people don't acknowledge those of us that see it both ways.

579 geoffputerbaugh  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:41:24am

Well, sure, I'll go against the "party line" here at LGF, which basically holds that there is no conflict between Christianity (and other book-based religions) and the theory of evolution.

Let us assume that there is a God, and that he wanted to create a world. Why wouldn't he just CREATE IT?

Why would he fall back on the idea of seeding the planet with DNA, and just letting things happen?

For me, the crucial idea is something like this: "Evolution created the [name your body part] for the purpose of [name your action]." As an example, "Evolution created the female breast for feeding infants." In these examples, "evolution" is a replacement for the monotheist God. ("He created the female breast to be caressed," "He created the female breast to excite men.")

Evolution does not have a purpose. The watchmaker is BLIND. You might as well write that "Evolution created the female breast to excite other women." I'm not listening. And the argument does not get any better at all when you say, "God created the world, and DNA, and evolution, so that the female breast would excite other women."

Do you understand this?

580 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:50:40am

re: #571 ruffy

Our good friend at LGF is a hard-core evolutionist, this we see as he is, after "scientifically" keen, knowing how to fine-tune servers, and reads good books on programming with DOM and javascript and ajax. It's all within his "scientific" mindset. This even though there is no - read NO - evidence to prove, let alone support, the evolutionary hypothesis.

The fossil record. Artifactual retroviral DNA in particular, and all of DNA generally. Lenski's e coli. And reams of evidence from millions of scientific investigations throughout the biosciences for the past 150 years.

As if facts, logic and evidence matter to you.

He always breates us creationists, if the number of such articles relating to this issue are counted. It has for him about as much weight as does world terrorism.

Well, forcing false dogmas onto the naive and gullible young minds of other peoples' children is, if not terrorism, at least a form of child abuse. But you're waaay wrong about the relative article count.

The theory of evolution is nothing but a theory, long discredited. Take the simple fact that, as Ray Kurzweil points out, humans have not undergone any significant changes for some 30,000 years.

False. Humans are evolving at a greater rate now than at any time in their history - mainly because there are so many more of us to produce selectable mutations. Skin pigmentation differences, resistances to geographically specific diseases, lactose tolerance in some but not others, and on and on and on...

Well then, why then does human history only take us back to 3 or 4 millennnia - at most? Were we still monkey-like until only 4,000 years ago, that we couldn't figure out how to communicate in writing until then?

We were not monkey-like before the advent of writing. There have been 11,000 year old temples discovered, and 30,000 year old sculptures, and 50,000 year old paintings, and jewelry beads hundreds of thousands of years old, and stone tools even older. First came tools. Then came language, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, due to a metamutation that hijacked the cortical module governing our highly elaborated hand-eye co-ordination system, which had been evolving for millions of years, and applied it also to the mouth-ear nexus, allowing us to produce and parse speech. Only later did text appear, and it was initially used in the service of keeping count of food stocks in storehouses. Then pictures of things were abstracted and stylized into simpler, easier-to-produce glyphs, which became the letters of various alphabets.

The machine principle of language, the phonemic principle of speech, and the phonetic principle of text are all structurally the same innovation. A small number of parts which alone possess no meaning are combined into aggregate meaningful wholes, allowing for the production of an unlimited variety of them.

Another salient point: If to evolve from A to B takes many steps, where each step SUCCEEDS to exists and supplant its predecessor, well why do we have to rely on a once-in-a-blue-moon "fossil finding" reported by NewYorkTimes "scientific" editor to reveal the missing intermediate fossil evidence; Why, if every intermediate step is a measure of survival of the fittest, are these fit intermediates practically extinct?

Umm...every dead organism is extinct. But the conditions that allow for bodies to fossilize are uncommon, and fossilization is a relatively rare occurrence. We are quite fortunate that meticulous and diligent searching has unearthed all of the 'intermediate' fossils that it has.

I like the LGF site, but no one is perfect. Let Charles if wants to, beat the Creationists. The truth in the end shall win.

And the truth is that which arises from the empirical evidence, not that which dismisses or ignores it.

581 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:51:22am

re: #579 geoffputerbaugh

Balderdash.

Everyone knows that The Gods created the female breast for extra buoyancy in water, trampoline action, and porn. My Holy Books say so.

Are you saying they're wrong? What proof do you have? My Gods have been around way longer than your one single God...heck it's written in my books. Why not open your eyes to the real truth?

582 IngisKahn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:53:01am

re: #579 geoffputerbaugh

This god you're hypothesizing about is supposed to be omniscient. So why wouldn't it know the exact outcome of the process it set in motion?

And evolution does have a purpose; the same purpose since molecules began to copy. That is to survive - to keep on keeping on.

583 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 9:54:20am

re: #497 Hillbilly Mike

Good riddance to you.

585 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:03:15am

re: #584 Sharmuta

Why it's not as simple as God vs the multiverse

Pitting the multiverse against religion presents a false dichotomy. Science never boils down to a choice between two alternative explanations. It is always plausible that both are wrong and a third or fourth or fifth will turn out to be correct

586 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:09:27am

re: #487 fiat_lux

Why don't you ask an adherent to i.d.?

Oh, so you're not one yourself? Tell us then, what you think is wrong with ID.

587 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:11:49am

re: #579 geoffputerbaugh

Well, sure, I'll go against the "party line" here at LGF, which basically holds that there is no conflict between Christianity (and other book-based religions) and the theory of evolution.

Let us assume that there is a God, and that he wanted to create a world. Why wouldn't he just CREATE IT?

Since there's plenty of evidence for evolution, the burden of proof is upon you to show why he didn't. Rather than deny reality you should incorporate it in other words. Now can you tell me why an omniscient all powerful being wouldn't use a set of laws and evolution?

588 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:20:41am

re: #579 geoffputerbaugh

WTF?

You present your point poorly and leave the impression you have issues.

589 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:22:19am

re: #472 fiat_lux

You mean where dead moths were sutck to tree trunks to illustrate the point and then photographed? Look it up. What does this have to do with Darwin, pbuh, who tried to explain how terrestrial creatures returned to the sea?

This isn't for the benefit of fiat_lux, who is clearly beyond help, but here is a discussion of this 'moths stuck to tree trunks' creationist talking point he refers to.

[Link: www.ntskeptics.org...]

Neither Wells nor Coulter seems to have picked up on the obvious--that the purpose of the photos was to make the point that dark moths will be more visible on light-colored bark, and pale moths will be more visible on dark-colored bark. Moths don't tend to park themselves in front of a camera to have their picture taken, and the obvious solution to the photographer's dilemma is to kill the moths and stick them on the bark. Life seems to be cheap for little moths. Sort of like the truth for some writers.

590 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:24:22am

re: #579 geoffputerbaugh

Well, sure, I'll go against the "party line" here at LGF, which basically holds that there is no conflict between Christianity (and other book-based religions) and the theory of evolution.

Let us assume that there is a God, and that he wanted to create a world. Why wouldn't he just CREATE IT?

Why would he fall back on the idea of seeding the planet with DNA, and just letting things happen?

For me, the crucial idea is something like this: "Evolution created the [name your body part] for the purpose of [name your action]." As an example, "Evolution created the female breast for feeding infants." In these examples, "evolution" is a replacement for the monotheist God. ("He created the female breast to be caressed," "He created the female breast to excite men.")

Evolution does not have a purpose. The watchmaker is BLIND. You might as well write that "Evolution created the female breast to excite other women." I'm not listening. And the argument does not get any better at all when you say, "God created the world, and DNA, and evolution, so that the female breast would excite other women."

Do you understand this?

God didn't have to create DNA in order to create the Universe. After all, their first appearances ARE ten billion years apart.

591 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:32:57am

Mammary gland

Evolution produced the mammary gland so that mammals could feed their young. Yes- both male and female mammals have mammary glands, and yes- men can breast feed! Ain't God a kick in the pants?

So- not sure why we're dealing with some overt breast infatuation here, but uh... there's some boob facts.

592 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:35:53am

re: #586 Jimmah

Excellent question ( no sarcasm)! Intelligent Design invokes an unknown, unnamed designer. As long as this view is held, it would seem to explain everything and negate the need for further research. The same thing with creationism except the "designer" is named: God, Allah etc.

593 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:41:21am

re: #592 fiat_lux

So- if you're not a creationist, IDer or "Darwinist", what is your explanation for the diversification of life on Earth? Aliens?

594 claire  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:42:17am

re: #579 geoffputerbaugh

Let us assume that there is a God, and that he wanted to create a world. Why wouldn't he just CREATE IT?

Yeah. And why wouldn't he have created it with robust, disease free people on it, who have all the resources they need to live a long healthy life (as opposed to starving in Sudan for example) and have no need for war and the killing off of other religions and tribes...or even the need to kill animals for their protein...ad infinitem...this line of argument could literally go on forever.

And you are going to answer that we ARE perfect, God has provided us with all we need (if your are 21st century westerners...) and Ruth's Chris Steakhouse is how God shows us he loves us and wants us to be happy, lol.

595 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:42:34am

re: #546 fiat_lux

Butt face, I understand science.You don't. You accept whatever comes down the pike.Ifeel sorry for you.

fiat_lux - I must commend you on your working so furiously to remove any last scintilla of doubt remaining in the mind of the honest reader regarding the idiocy and dishonesty of anti-evolution propagandists like yourself. You're doing a grand job!

It's my guess that's why you're still being allowed to post here.

596 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:46:53am

re: #592 fiat_lux

Excellent question ( no sarcasm)! Intelligent Design invokes an unknown, unnamed designer. As long as this view is held, it would seem to explain everything and negate the need for further research. The same thing with creationism except the "designer" is named: God, Allah etc.

Actually, it would explain nothing, but merely pose different questions. The existence and genesis of this purported designer would need to be explained and its structural morphology would need to be elaborated. We would also question as well as the composition and functional efficacy of the mechanisms by means of which it effectuated its intentions in the world. But of course, since this designer is purportedly para-empirical, no empirical investigations or experiments could be forthcoming. Which would leave us with a whole lot of unanswerable questions (read religious mysteries), rather than the eminently answerable questions post by the empirical science discipline of evolutionary theory.

597 MJBrutus  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:46:56am

re: #328 ceejaytoo

So why is a THEORY that a 20-something year old came up with after six weeks in the Galapagos islands given so much credence that people will believe that we all evolved from pond scum, lizards and monkeys? Who is really being foolish here?
The FACT of DNA points to a Designer, not blind chance. Do the math!

Please move to Romania. You'll be happier and so will we.

598 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:48:24am

I think children would be better served if they are learning HOW to think in school rather than WHAT to think.
In a world where the average Muslim reads only 4 pages of writing a year while the average European reads 8 books and the average American reads 11 books each year we are still falling behind.
Why?
Because we waste our children's time in class on propagandizing them instead of helping them become critical thinkers.
We're doomed.
But not because we turned our backs on either Creation OR Evolution.
We're doomed because we thought we could MAKE the next generation believe as we do without cultivating their powers of reason.
All we'll get out of such ''education'' is a generation that will fall for anything.

599 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:53:20am

re: #592 fiat_lux

Excellent question ( no sarcasm)! Intelligent Design invokes an unknown, unnamed designer. As long as this view is held, it would seem to explain everything and negate the need for further research. The same thing with creationism except the "designer" is named: God, Allah etc.

Actually the problem is that it explains nothing. It's simply a religiously motivated claim that evolutionary theory is wrong. It is not a scientific theory.

It seems natural to assume that since you say you disagree with ID, you disagree with it's central argument. What do you think is wrong with 'irreducible complexity'?

600 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:53:38am

I am in favor of mandatory classes in aristotelian logic for middle schoolers, in order to give them the cognitive tools with which they can process and evaluate the glut of information with which they are inundated. Give them this, and an explanation of the principles of verification and falsification, and an understanding of the statistical probability character of empirical science, and no one would need to concern themselves with kids embracing fables and myths as facts. Any teacher who tried to indoctrinate such kids with creationist dogma in public high school science class would be laughed out of the room.

601 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 10:57:49am

re: #563 Charles

Charles, I accept your characterization and I wholly own it. I have re-read some of my posts and I am not proud. I still hold to my beliefs about conventional evolution, but if I continue to post on these threads I will do so less stridently.

602 Wantedtoregisterforalongtime  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:14:56am

Let's be fair to Romanians: it's very difficult to teach evolution in a country in which there is none.

603 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:31:21am

re: #593 Sharmuta

Share: #593 Sharmuta

First, I sincerely apologize for some of the things I posted; those that contained personal insults. Frustration is not an excuse. I should be more frustrated with my inability to explain my position.

As for your most recent question, the answer is simple: I have no idea. The answer, if it is knowable, may be some species of common descent. Darwin might have been on to something, but I don't fully accept his proposed mechanism. He apparently knew nothing of Mendel and indisputably knew nothing of the inner workings of the cell.

604 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:37:23am

re: #603 fiat_lux

Darwin might have been on to something, but I don't fully accept his proposed mechanism. He apparently knew nothing of Mendel and indisputably knew nothing of the inner workings of the cell.

So- because Darwin was on to something, and later discoveries help flesh out and validate his theory, you find it less plausible?

605 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:40:04am

re: #595 Jimmah

If my remaining here is because I discredit those who honestly disagree with conventional evolution then I have done a disservice to honest inquiry. I speak for myself only.

606 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:49:20am

re: #596 Salamantis

When I wrote, "seem to explain everything", I meant that the need to continue rigorous research into the unknowns of life could be stultified and would be counter-productive. I agree with you about the additional questions that would be raised.

607 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:50:17am

re: #603 fiat_lux

Share: #593 Sharmuta

First, I sincerely apologize for some of the things I posted; those that contained personal insults. Frustration is not an excuse. I should be more frustrated with my inability to explain my position.

As for your most recent question, the answer is simple: I have no idea. The answer, if it is knowable, may be some species of common descent. Darwin might have been on to something, but I don't fully accept his proposed mechanism. He apparently knew nothing of Mendel and indisputably knew nothing of the inner workings of the cell.

But Mendelian inheritance theory and Watson's and Crick's DNA do not contradict Darwin's random mutation and natural selection, they complement them, and provide the genetic mechanisms by means of which they proceed.

608 joekowalski247  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 11:56:24am

"Meanwhile, religious studies classes continue to tell Romanian children that God made the world in seven days."
Thats where Creationism belongs, in the "religious studies" class as should the Religion of Global Warming and Evolution.

Science class should teach science.

609 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:01:34pm

re: #599 Jimmah

Since I am an agnostic I cannot make a religious argument with honesty. Perhaps I do not have the courage to proclaim myself an atheist or some form of deist. As far as irreducible complexity is concerned, the idea is appealing but I have read some papers that invoke co-option that seem to resolve it. I am not scientist enough endorse either position.

610 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:03:43pm

re: #608 joekowalski247

"Meanwhile, religious studies classes continue to tell Romanian children that God made the world in seven days."
Thats where Creationism belongs, in the "religious studies" class as should the Religion of Global Warming and Evolution.

Science class should teach science.

The theory that humans are responsible for most of global warming has proven to be bad science, but science nevertheless - which is why further persual of the empirical evidence could lead scientists to flee from it in droves, barely two decades after it was first proposed.

Evolutionary theory is impeccable science, and has only been further supported the more empirical studies have been conducted, over the past 150 years. No credible empirical evidence contradicts it.

Creationism is not empirical science at all, but religious dogma. ID is the selfsame religious dogma, with a sciencey-sounding name pasted on it by the Disco Dewdes for PR propaganda purposes.

611 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:07:04pm

re: #603 fiat_lux

The answer, if it is knowable,

Why on earth wouldn't it be knowable?

may be some species of common descent.

Why didn't you just say 'evolution'?

Darwin might have been on to something, but I don't fully accept his proposed mechanism.

Which parts of his proposed mechanism do you not accept? And which do you accept?

He apparently knew nothing of Mendel and indisputably knew nothing of the inner workings of the cell.

Absolutely bizarre that you find that the later discovery of biological details that did exactly the job required of Darwin's theory as a reason for mistrusting his theory! It's like taking issue with Dalton's atomic theory on the basis that he didn't yet know the details of the periodic table (that later fully vindicated his theory). Insane.

612 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:15:51pm

re: #604 Sharmuta

I cannot agree that that his theory has been validated. Darwin provided a framework that, while not entirely novel, was very quickly accepted. This lead to every paleontological discovery to be fitted into that imperfect framework.
As long as researchers adhere to this theory, when something contrary is discovered it will immediately be interpreted as being consonant with conventional evolution.

613 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:24:06pm
As far as irreducible complexity is concerned, the idea is appealing but I have read some papers that invoke co-option that seem to resolve it.I am not scientist enough endorse either position.

You should listen more carefully to those who are then. I'm talking about the biological science community, whose views on evolution you have exhibited contempt for while giving no valid reasons for doing so.

614 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:26:58pm

re: #612 fiat_lux

I cannot agree that that his theory has been validated. Darwin provided a framework that, while not entirely novel, was very quickly accepted. This lead to every paleontological discovery to be fitted into that imperfect framework.
As long as researchers adhere to this theory, when something contrary is discovered it will immediately be interpreted as being consonant with conventional evolution.

Absolute validation is not part of the empirical science model, which proceeds via statistical probability and does not permit of apodictic certainty. Perfection is an impossible-to-attain ideal abstraction. Having said that, the empicial evidence supporting evolutionary theory has been overwhelming, while credible contradictory evidence has been utterly nonexistent.

Lamarck presented an alternative theory - that environmentally learned traits could be passed on to one's descendents in the absence of instruction. It has been thoroughly discredited and debunked.

Any scientist who could conclusively demonstrate that biological phenomena were incompatible with evolution would immmediately and irretrievably have his or her ticket to fame and fortune punched. The reason it hasn't happened is not for lack of trying.

615 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:27:55pm

re: #607 Salamantis

I think Watson and Cricks discovery of the double helix structure of DNA does create difficulties for Charles Darwin. The replication of this molecule has safe-guards built in that minimize errors. The editors cut out and replace transcription errors. This reduces but does not eliminate such errors. If it did the allele that gave homo sapiens larger brains would not have existed and therefor no pyramids at Giza nor space shuttle.

616 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:28:15pm

Umm...EMPIRICAL evidence. PIMF

617 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:31:26pm

re: #615 fiat_lux

I think Watson and Cricks discovery of the double helix structure of DNA does create difficulties for Charles Darwin. The replication of this molecule has safe-guards built in that minimize errors. The editors cut out and replace transcription errors. This reduces but does not eliminate such errors. If it did the allele that gave homo sapiens larger brains would not have existed and therefor no pyramids at Giza nor space shuttle.

It presents no such difficulties. What is required for evolution via random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection to proceed is a high but not perfect rate of copying fidelity. If copying fidelity were perfect, no evolution could transpire. If copying fidelity were too imperfect, species integrity and continuity would be lost. DNA provides precisely the physical substrate mechanism required for evolution to proceed.

618 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 12:57:01pm

re: #611 Jimmah

I wrote "if" it is knowable. I do not know what is knowable and what is not. I suspect all things in nature are knowable.
I am trying to make a distinction between evolution and common descent. Evolution has it's own history and meaning ie., all life evolved from a common ancestor and that results in life making major changes in their appearance and their funcitonality.
I accept change over time but not the change Darwin theorized.
I don't believe that my opinion is bizarre as regards later biological details discoveries. Transcription errors are, for the most part, corrected. Most mutations that escape that error correcting process do not enhance the ability of the organism to survive.
Dalton's theory was based on observation and was built upon earlier theories.
He was ultimately proved correct by experimentation.

619 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:07:25pm

re: #613 Jimmah

You mean leave science to the scientists? And, by extension, leave politics to politicians? We know through history that ideas in science come and go. It was once thought that our galaxy was the whole of the universe and all those other structures were within it. You know all these things and I will not continue the list. Evolution, or God or whatever gave us intelligence to come to our own conclusions.

620 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:09:32pm

re: #614 Salamantis

Quit right. If they had the courage.

621 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:19:48pm

re: #617 Salamantis

I suppose that the allowable mutation rate and that fraction of mutations that are beneficial is everything. For example an allele that gives our species a larger brain is good. A mutation that adds an extra chromosome is not.

622 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:19:55pm

re: #618 fiat_lux

I wrote "if" it is knowable. I do not know what is knowable and what is not. I suspect all things in nature are knowable.
I am trying to make a distinction between evolution and common descent. Evolution has it's own history and meaning ie., all life evolved from a common ancestor and that results in life making major changes in their appearance and their funcitonality.

Different species can only share common descent if their common ancestors subsequently evolutionarily diverged. And there has been plenty of time - 3 1/2 billion years, or 1.75 million times the distance from Jesus to us - for terrestrial life to have made those major changes and undergone those many speciations.

I accept change over time but not the change Darwin theorized. I don't believe that my opinion is bizarre as regards later biological details discoveries. Transcription errors are, for the most part, corrected. Most mutations that escape that error correcting process do not enhance the ability of the organism to survive.
Dalton's theory was based on observation and was built upon earlier theories.
He was ultimately proved correct by experimentation.

If all transcription errors were corrected, no evolution could take place, and the resultant static species would die out as soon as its ecological niche changed enough to be hostile rather than welcoming. If, otoh, too many errors occurred, environmentally selected traits could not be reliably inherited by succeeding generations.

Most genetic mutations that manifest traits manifest traits that are indeed selected against, and the hosts of such mutational liabilities do not survive to reproduce. Only a small percentage of genetic mutations prove to be beneficial to the organism's interface with its ecological niche, and their hosts survive and multiply. That's the way environmental selection works.

623 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:22:36pm

re: #620 fiat_lux

Quit right. If they had the courage.

It takes courage to opt for money, fame, a promise of perpetual high status employment, and an enduring place of honor in the history of one's discipline? No, it would require stupidity to spurn such a thing.

624 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:22:46pm

re: #616 Salamantis

I will once again display my newbieness, but I must ask what is "PIMF"

625 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:25:20pm

re: #621 fiat_lux

I suppose that the allowable mutation rate and that fraction of mutations that are beneficial is everything. For example an allele that gives our species a larger brain is good. A mutation that adds an extra chromosome is not.

Remember that copying fidelity, while not perfect, is nevertheless of preservational necessity very high. The vast majority of organisms born contain no novel mutations whatsoever; they simply repeat their parents' successful template.

626 IngisKahn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:26:35pm

re: #624 fiat_lux

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

627 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:27:44pm

Preview Is My Friend. In other words, had I checked my message before posting it, or run the handy-dandy spell-checking program Charles has so graciously provided, I most likely would have detected and fixed the typing error that I instead had to correct in a subsequent post.

628 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:35:49pm

re: #619 fiat_lux

You mean leave science to the scientists? And, by extension, leave politics to politicians? We know through history that ideas in science come and go. It was once thought that our galaxy was the whole of the universe and all those other structures were within it. You know all these things and I will not continue the list. Evolution, or God or whatever gave us intelligence to come to our own conclusions.

SOME ideas come and go. Other's come and stay.

Newtonian physics was not refuted by Einsteinian relativity, but merely subsumed as a special case within a more general theory. No one seriously thinks that Copernican-Galilean heliocentricity model of the solar system will ever be supplanted. And Darwin's principles of random species mutation and nonrandom environmental selection have only been elaborated, refined, augmented and strengthened by subsequent contributions made by Mendel, Watson & Crick.

629 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:38:07pm

re: #621 fiat_lux

I suppose that the allowable mutation rate and that fraction of mutations that are beneficial is everything. For example an allele that gives our species a larger brain is good. A mutation that adds an extra chromosome is not.

And species members who possess the first mutation survive and thrive; those that possess the second one - not so much. Nonrandom environmental selection in action.

630 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:52:47pm

re: #622 Salamantis

I agree. What fraction of those mutations are beneficial and enhance the ability of the organism to survive? Why is the evolution of some species accelerated and some apparently non-existent? I am thinking specifically of Lucy. Was she dated to 3.5mya? In evolution that is not much time; nontrivial but rather recent when there are other species that are unchanged by orders of magnitude.

631 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:54:12pm

re: #618 fiat_lux

I suspect all things in nature are knowable.

The reason I'm asking about this is that your 'if' seemed to suggest you lacked confidence that naturalism was 'up to the job'. Would you agree that there is no compelling reason to think that biological diversity constitutes some kind of insoluble conundrum that challenges naturalism itself?


I accept change over time but not the change Darwin theorized.

How can you accept only 'some' evolution? What means do you have for quantifying how much change Darwins theory can account for?

Transcription errors are, for the most part, corrected. Most mutations that escape that error correcting process do not enhance the ability of the organism to survive.

Yes, and yes. But those that do enhance the organism's fitness can only increase in the gene pool while those that are deleterious can only dwindle, as the theory predicts. There's no point in maintaining that genetic mutations cannot do this because it has been observed in the laboratory on a routine basis. Beneficial mutations do occur and when they do they can quickly become dominant in a population. We are way beyond the point where the basic mechanism of natural selection can be called into doubt.

Dalton's theory was based on observation and was built upon earlier theories.
He was ultimately proved correct by experimentation.

And Darwins theory of evolution by means of natural selection has been proved correct by observation and experimentation.

632 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:54:17pm

re: #626 IngisKahn

Danke Shoen.

633 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 1:57:30pm

re: #627 Salamantis

Got it. I sometimes notice don't detect spelling errors; I mentally correct them before I am aware of them

634 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:01:09pm

re: #630 fiat_lux

I agree. What fraction of those mutations are beneficial and enhance the ability of the organism to survive? Why is the evolution of some species accelerated and some apparently non-existent? I am thinking specifically of Lucy. Was she dated to 3.5mya? In evolution that is not much time; nontrivial but rather recent when there are other species that are unchanged by orders of magnitude.

The answer is that some species undergo more intense environmental selection pressures than do others, such as from changing ecological niches, which cause different mutations to be selected for or against than before. Changing selection pressures don't cause different mutations to appear, but they do result in different mutations being selected for or against from the random pool provided by imperfect copying fidelity. And of course different species possess different rates of copying fidelity, which means there are statistically different chance per member of mutations from differing species for their environments to select for or against.

635 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:03:32pm

chances - PIMF

636 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:07:39pm

BTW: Lucy did not bear a close resemblance to contemporary homo sapiens women, and was not herself homo sapiens.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

637 Jimmah  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:12:46pm

I'm off to eat/watch 24 for a bit. Laterz...

638 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:14:24pm

Our species can be genetically dated from Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam - who lived 50,000 to 80,000 years apart.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

639 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:15:42pm

Oh...and Eve was first.

640 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:16:24pm

re: #628 Salamantis

My point was that a layman, like myself, can have a valid reason to dispute conventional wisdom. Newton's theory was good enough to get us to the moon, send probes through slingshot maneuvers using the sun and planets to propel them on grand tours of our solar system, and in the case of Voyager, beyond. Relativity need not be invoke because of the relatively slow speeds of the spacecraft. Einstein was skeptical of Quantum theory. Now, I have read recently, Quantum theory is being reexamined. My point in all this is that all theories must be reexamined and Darwin should not be exempt.

641 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:31:41pm

re: #640 fiat_lux

My point was that a layman, like myself, can have a valid reason to dispute conventional wisdom. Newton's theory was good enough to get us to the moon, send probes through slingshot maneuvers using the sun and planets to propel them on grand tours of our solar system, and in the case of Voyager, beyond. Relativity need not be invoke because of the relatively slow speeds of the spacecraft. Einstein was skeptical of Quantum theory. Now, I have read recently, Quantum theory is being reexamined. My point in all this is that all theories must be reexamined and Darwin should not be exempt.

Just because YOU don't know something doesn't mean that NO ONE does.

Science continuously re-examines its theories; that's what sceince DOES.

But the main thing being done in regard to quantum mechanics is that Garrett Lisi is attempting to unite it with relativity theory:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

[Link: arxiv.org...]

642 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:40:01pm

I particularly like these quotes from Lisi's paper on his theory:

We exist in a universe described by mathematics. But which math? Although it is interesting to consider that the universe may be the physical instantiation of all mathematics, there is a classic principle for restricting the possibilities: The mathematics of the universe should be beautiful. A successful description of nature should be a concise, elegant, unified mathematical structure consistent with experience.

Hundreds of years of theoretical and experimental work have produced an extremely successful pair of mathematical theories describing our world. The standard model of particles and interactions described by quantum field theory is a paragon of predictive excellence. General relativity, a theory of gravity built from pure geometry, is exceedingly elegant and effective in its domain of applicability. Any attempt to describe nature at the foundational level must reproduce these successful theories, and the most sensible course towards unification is to extend them with as little new mathematical machinery as necessary. The further we drift from these experimentally verified foundations, the less likely our mathematics is to correspond with reality. In the absence of new experimental data, we should be very careful, accepting sophisticated mathematical constructions only when they provide a clear simplification. And we should pare and unite existing structures whenever possible.

The standard model and general relativity are the best mathematical descriptions we have of our universe. By considering these two theories and following our guiding principles, we will be led to a beautiful unfication.

The theory proposed in this paper represents a comprehensive unification program, describing all fields of the standard model and gravity as parts of a uniquely beautiful mathematical structure. The principal bundle connection and its curvature describe how the E8 manifold twists and turns over spacetime, reproducing all known fields and dynamics through pure geometry. Some aspects of this theory are not yet completely understood, and until they are it should be treated with appropriate skepticism. However, the current match to the standard model and gravity is very good. Future work will either strengthen the correlation to known physics and produce successful predictions for the LHC, or the theory will encounter a fatal contradiction with nature. The lack of extraneous structures and free parameters ensures testable predictions, so it will either succeed or fail spectacularly. If E8 theory is fully successful as a theory of everything, our universe is an exceptionally beautiful shape.

643 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:48:40pm

re: #631 Jimmah

I believe there is no insoluble conundrum regarding bio-diversity that challenges naturalism. Naturalism is all that we have.
As far "some evolution" goes I cannot quantify it. It seems to me that most variation is within species and represents their ability to manifest changes within that species. That is, for example, among Homo Sapiens who
have lighter skin in the far north will be more able to collect vitamin D than those who have darker skin. Also, I lighter skin person near the equator would be more susceptible to deadly skin cancer.
I checked your google link and found a myriad of choices. I cannot go to them all but if you would link to one representatiional choice I would be happy to look at it.

644 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:55:23pm

re: #636 Salamantis

I agree with everything you wrote. I was pointing out that she has been considered our earliest ancestor since the year I graduate from high school. I was contrasting our ancestry with creatures who have remained unchanged for 10's of millions of years.

645 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:56:41pm

re: #637 Jimmah

Later. Thank you for the exchange. I appreciate it.

646 VioletTiger  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:57:30pm

re: #472 fiat_lux

You mean where dead moths were sutck to tree trunks to illustrate the point and then photographed? Look it up. What does this have to do with Darwin, pbuh, who tried to explain how terrestrial creatures returned to the sea?

I'm glad I went to bed last night. Stuck to a tree? C'mon.

If you want to talk whales, please comment on the Valley of the Whales in Egypt. Funny thing about those whale fossils. They have FEET.
[Link: www.ask-aladdin.com...]

647 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:04:18pm

re: #638 Salamantis

I bought that Newsweek issue in 1988. I'm sorry I didn't read the entire Wiki article (I will). If I remember correctly the Newsweek article dated mitochondrial eve to 200K years ago.

648 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:15:34pm

re: #641 Salamantis

I never said that my ignorance is everyone's ignorance. My point was that Darwin's theory should be re-examined as all theories are. I wish Dr. Lisi the best; the theories must be reconciled and that would mean the gravitational force, which has yet to be incorporated into grand unified theory.

649 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:20:55pm

re: #643 fiat_lux

I believe there is no insoluble conundrum regarding bio-diversity that challenges naturalism. Naturalism is all that we have.
As far "some evolution" goes I cannot quantify it. It seems to me that most variation is within species and represents their ability to manifest changes within that species. That is, for example, among Homo Sapiens who
have lighter skin in the far north will be more able to collect vitamin D than those who have darker skin. Also, I lighter skin person near the equator would be more susceptible to deadly skin cancer.
I checked your google link and found a myriad of choices. I cannot go to them all but if you would link to one representatiional choice I would be happy to look at it.

A single species typically tends to evolutionarily diverge into multiple species when populations are physically isolated from each other, preventing genetic intermingling. In such cases, each population generates its own particular set of random mutations, which are selected for or against by differing environments. When the resultant genetic divergence reaches a certain point, members of different populations can only produce sterile offspring; when it reaches a further point, they cannot produce offspring at all. We then have speciation.

All the millions upon millions of various and sundry existent and extinct terrestrial species are divergent speciations - some immensely divergent, over the course of billions of years - from a very small group of very ancient progenitors.

650 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:21:02pm

re: #642 Salamantis

re: #642 Salamantis

Thank you for that. Godspeed Dr. Lisi

651 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:26:43pm

re: #648 fiat_lux

I never said that my ignorance is everyone's ignorance. My point was that Darwin's theory should be re-examined as all theories are. I wish Dr. Lisi the best; the theories must be reconciled and that would mean the gravitational force, which has yet to be incorporated into grand unified theory.

That's what Lisi's theory does; it unites the four fundamental forces (the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, electromagnetism, and gravity) as facets within the fabric of E8.

And evolutionary theory does not exist for a single second when scientists AREN'T examining its logical consequences and ramifications, and investigating and experimenting to ascertain how the logic fits with the empirical data thus derived. Invariably, it fits like a glove.

652 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:44:15pm

re: #646 VioletTiger

I saw the link and will comment after I have checked several sources. From the photos I just saw backbones.
Yes, the photos were taken after they were pinned to trees.

653 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 3:59:00pm

re: #651 Salamantis

What would be the motivation for someone to attempt an re-evaluation of evolution theory? Fame? Glory? A Nobel Prize? Any attempt would result in ostracism and if not lack of advancement no tenure, etc.

654 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:01:05pm

re: #649 Salamantis

I have no problem with speciation, But in the end Finches are Finches.

655 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:06:49pm

re: #654 fiat_lux

How long do you plan on maintaining the fiction that you aren't trying to promote creationism with your comments? I mean, come on. You don't think you're fooling anyone, do you?

656 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:19:49pm

re: #655 Charles

Charles, I am not a creationist. If I were I would have said it up front. I am merely someone who ,36 years ago ,began to develop doubts about evolution. I am not trying to fool anyone.

657 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:21:43pm

re: #654 fiat_lux

I have no problem with speciation, But in the end Finches are Finches.

And in the final analysis, Australopithecus Afarensus wasn't Homo Sapiens - but it evolved into it. Just like in the artifactual retroviral DNA sequence analysis, humans and chimpanzees evolutionarily diverged from a common ancestor that lived about 8 million years ago. And we still share almost 99% of our DNA.

658 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:23:54pm

re: #653 fiat_lux

What would be the motivation for someone to attempt an re-evaluation of evolution theory? Fame? Glory? A Nobel Prize? Any attempt would result in ostracism and if not lack of advancement no tenure, etc.

Wrong. In science, if you can empirically demonstrate what you contend, you are golden. Empirical evidence is the only currency of the scientific realm.

659 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:25:36pm

re: #656 fiat_lux

Charles, I am not a creationist. If I were I would have said it up front. I am merely someone who ,36 years ago ,began to develop doubts about evolution. I am not trying to fool anyone.

If you WERE a creationist and WERE trying to fool people, would you admit it?

660 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:29:00pm

re: #657 Salamantis

We share DNA with a myriad of species and the 1% you cited is still in dispute.
If the 1% was true, what portion is it that still make us so different from our hairy relatives?

661 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:33:30pm

re: #660 fiat_lux

We share DNA with a myriad of species and the 1% you cited is still in dispute.
If the 1% was true, what portion is it that still make us so different from our hairy relatives?

The 1.06% - 1.23% range is not disputed by any credible scientist.

We share less than that with other species - and the farther removed from us they are, and the more distant in the past our common ancestor with them is, the less DNA we share with them.

The portion that codes for neotony, and the portion that codes for the use of the hand-eye coordination system by the mouth-ear nexus, among others, are portions that human and chimpanzees do not share..

662 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:41:31pm

re: #659 Salamantis

I suppose if I were a liar and trying to lie I would lie. That is what liar's do. I think that what is going on here is that over a period of time you have discovered creationists presenting themselves as something other than that.
You cannot believe that someone can have honest doubts about evolution Without being a creationist.That is the fault of creationists. And that skeptical, cynical attitude you have (when I say you, I mean lizards generally) makes you suspect those with beliefs creationist trolls.
But in answer to you question I am not a creationist and I am trying to fool anyone. Charles has already asked me to reveal my true self, and I did.

663 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:42:29pm
664 displaced yankee  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:43:57pm

I think, overall, I'd rather worry about where our species is going versus where it has been.

665 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:44:06pm

re: #663 Salamantis

[Link: seattlepi.nwsource.com...]

And we're able to do these meticulous, base-pair by base-pair comparisons, because we have completely sequenced both the human and the chimpanzee genomes.

666 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:48:27pm

re: #665 Salamantis

I accept you numbers without dispute. After al,l a chimp was the first American astronaut. I still detect a difference between chimps and homo sapiens.

667 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:51:02pm

re: #662 fiat_lux

That second to last sentence should read , " I'm NOT trying to fool anyone"

668 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:52:57pm

re: #652 fiat_lux

I saw the link and will comment after I have checked several sources. From the photos I just saw backbones.
Yes, the photos were taken after they were pinned to trees.

[Link: www.ntskeptics.org...]

Read the section titled Peppered Moth.

669 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:56:00pm

re: #666 fiat_lux

I accept you numbers without dispute. After al,l a chimp was the first American astronaut. I still detect a difference between chimps and homo sapiens.

As do I. There are actually grater genetic differences between chimpanzees or bonobos and gorillas or orangutans than there are between chimpanzees or bonobos and humans. But very similar does not mean identical.

670 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:56:19pm

re: #654 fiat_lux

I have no problem with speciation, But in the end Finches are Finches.

Just as vertebrates are vertebrates, tetrapods are tetrapods, amniotes are amniotes, mammals are mammals, primates are primates, humans are humans are primates are mammals are amniotes are tetrapods are vertebrates...

A species never stops belonging to any of its ancestral clades.

New species of Finches will always be finches, will always be birds, will always be amniotes, will always be tetrapods, will always be vertebrates...

I really think that you should watch this.

It starts off slow but gets going after one minute thirty seconds and gathers momentum right to the end. Its very informative, very funny and goes into far more depth than any single post on LGF could possibly match.

And I think that it makes the point better than I could.

671 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:56:31pm

umm...grEater. PIMF

672 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:05:58pm

re: #668 Salamantis

I read the section on peppered moths. I said pinned and they were actually glued.I don't believe that the moths are an example of evolution. Light and dark moths already existed and remained moths, regardless of their relative distribution. It might be an examplelof natural selection.

673 Basho  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:12:32pm

re: #653 fiat_lux

What would be the motivation for someone to attempt an re-evaluation of evolution theory? Fame? Glory? A Nobel Prize? Any attempt would result in ostracism and if not lack of advancement no tenure, etc.

Oh brother...

674 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:13:19pm

re: #672 fiat_lux

I read the section on peppered moths. I said pinned and they were actually glued.I don't believe that the moths are an example of evolution. Light and dark moths already existed and remained moths, regardless of their relative distribution. It might be an examplelof natural selection.

But evolution is comprised of random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental mutation - in this case, that nonrandom environmental selection was the fact that the less moths' wings matched their prefeered tree bark perches, the more likely they were to be spotted and eaten by predators before they could reproduce. But still, when the trees changed shade, the random mutations had to occur before they could be selected for or against.

You say that moths had been both dark and light before. But there was definitely a first time for each moth shade mutation to occur, and depending upon its environment, it was selected for or against.

675 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:15:43pm

Umm...acted upon by nonrandom environmental SELECTION...PIMF

676 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:22:19pm

re: #670 Mr Secul

Thanks.Every reationist should see this and ruminate on it. I'm not a creationist but I will replay it, taking notes. The narrator talks very fast.

677 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:24:14pm

re: #673 Basho

I am standing here beside myself shrugging.

678 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:34:07pm

re: #676 fiat_lux

Thanks.Every reationist should see this and ruminate on it. I'm not a creationist but I will replay it, taking notes. The narrator talks very fast.

You might also try playing the other "Foundational Falsehood of Creationism" videos. There are 13 of them in all.

679 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:36:27pm

re: #674 Salamantis

At some point in the distant past they were all one color? And then there was a mutation that allowed them to vary in color? And one of the colors predominated due to natural selection?

680 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:38:14pm
681 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:48:09pm

re: #679 fiat_lux

At some point in the distant past they were all one color? And then there was a mutation that allowed them to vary in color? And one of the colors predominated due to natural selection?

Most likely, they evolved from some earlier insectoid form, and as part of that evolution, they possessed a color that allowed themselves to camouflage themselves in their environmental niche. If they had not done so, the evolution would most likely have been selected against and failed. These moths were almost certainly producing the occasional color mutations, which failed, since those mutations revealed them to predators in their ecological niche. But when the color characteristics of that niche change, the previously successful baseline begins to fail, as its members get gobbled up now that the predators can better see them, and some of the mutational shades - the ones that most closely resemble the new niche shade, and provide the best anti-predator camouflage - begins to succeed.

682 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:49:35pm

I must leave now. I hope we can continue this discussion later. I appreciate the courtesy you have extended this heretical loon.

683 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:50:56pm

re: #676 fiat_lux

Thanks.Every reationist should see this and ruminate on it. I'm not a creationist but I will replay it, taking notes. The narrator talks very fast.

He also mixes: text, images, and speech. Its very information dense but you pick up more each time you watch.

He makes me laugh because I've waded through that stuff years ago and you tend to forget the details so when a creationist says there is no evidence and the scientists are making it up, I think, 'I'm sure there is, I can remember some and I'm sure there's more.'

But its just funny to see how much work has gone into phylogeny and to what depth. Compare that knowledge with the knowledge of the detractors and you understand why creationist arguments don't have much traction with those trained in biology.

Its not brain washing and indoctrination, its the sheer amount of supporting evidence for descent with modification.

I suspect that most creationists just don't realize what they are arguing against. OTOH how do you distill all that into a 4k character post on a blog?

You have to say, ' Read a text book!'. But that would be hard work and most people aren't prepared to put in the effort.

684 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:53:43pm

re: #680 skyrocket

Wow! Simply amazing. I crafted a very polite question to Charles about his recent devotion to the issue of evolution vs. creationism, and my VERY POLITE POST is deleted and certain folks behave like leftist loons with insults and everything else that is the hallmark of the left.

I have enjoyed my visits here for many years. This is the last one.

Take care all. That includes you too Charles. I knew you when...

Yeah, this is not the Charles you thought you knew...;~)

But with only 68 comments in almost 4 1/2 years, and a -5 karma for those, I have the distinct feeling that you never really knew him. And that we'll be able to struggle on somehow without your august presence.

You're apparently okay with anti-idiotarianism, until it's YOUR sacred idiotarian cow-ox that gets gored. You're the idiotarian equivalent of a NIMBY (Not In My Beliefs, Y'all!)

685 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 5:59:12pm

re: #676 fiat_lux

I found a transcript.

686 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:01:30pm

re: #684 Salamantis

He has only a -5 Karma. I have been a member since Nov. 21 of this year and my Karma stands at -473. 300 years ago I would have been burned at the stake.

687 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:04:21pm

re: #685 Mr Secul

Yo, thanks I bookmarked it. I'll print it when I get more printer paper. Yeah, I'm a lazy so'mbidge.

688 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:11:08pm

re: #686 fiat_lux

He has only a -5 Karma. I have been a member since Nov. 21 of this year and my Karma stands at -473. 300 years ago I would have been burned at the stake.

Except that our only orthodoxy is adherence to the facts, logic, and empirical evidence. And we don't torch your ass; we fact-check it.

689 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:13:21pm

People who post grand goodbye statements will be immediately blocked, because experience shows that they always come back. (To paraphrase Stephen King.)

690 mannygo  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:04:53am

30 years ago, I was convinced God created the world as we see it today. Then a boy my age convinced me with very detailed scientific explanations that evolution was right.

This boy was Romanian. He learned all that stuff in high school in Romania.


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