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Ebert: Win Ben Stein's Mind

Entertainment | Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 6:54:13 pm PST

Roger Ebert’s comprehensive skewering of Ben Stein’s anti-evolution film Expelled (a right-wing Michael Moore-ish piece of deceptive propaganda) is a must-read: Win Ben Stein’s mind.

Toward the end of the film, we find that Stein actually did want to title it “From Darwin to Hitler.” He finds a Creationist who informs him, “Darwinism inspired and advanced Nazism.” He refers to advocates of eugenics as liberal. I would not call Hitler liberal. Arbitrary forced sterilization in our country has been promoted mostly by racists, who curiously found many times more blacks than whites suitable for such treatment.

Ben Stein is only getting warmed up. He takes a field trip to visit one “result” of Darwinism: Nazi concentration camps. “As a Jew,” he says, “I wanted to see for myself.” We see footage of gaunt, skeletal prisoners. Pathetic children. A mound of naked Jewish corpses. “It’s difficult to describe how it felt to walk through such a haunting place,” he says. Oh, go ahead, Ben Stein. Describe. It filled you with hatred for Charles Darwin and his followers, who represent the overwhelming majority of educated people in every nation on earth. It is not difficult for me to describe how you made me feel by exploiting the deaths of millions of Jews in support of your argument for a peripheral Christian belief. It fills me with contempt.

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1352 comments

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1 diminuendo  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:56:18pm

rediculous.

2 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:56:29pm

Win Ben Stein's Money was the greatest game show on television.

3 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:56:34pm

Eh, I'd rather have his money.

/

4 diminuendo  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:56:48pm

edit,
ridiculous.

5 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:57:00pm

Damn. Ebert actually HAS a brain.

6 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:57:50pm

I'd rather have Ben Stein's money.

7 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:58:00pm

"it filled you with hatred"..."it fills me with contempt"? really? this guy sounds like a radical hate-monger

8 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:58:19pm

re: #6 6pat6

I'd rather have Ben Stein's money.

GTMA!

9 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:59:07pm

I wish I had $1 for every ID/Darwin post.
/just sayin'

10 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 6:59:41pm

re: #7 stretch

"it filled you with hatred"..."it fills me with contempt"? really? this guy sounds like a radical hate-monger

Ah, I thought you had left us after you threw a temper tantrum on the last evolution thread. But alas, you are still here, still being our "pinata, spitting out stupid every time we hit you," as Neil Stevens says.

11 Shug  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:00:00pm
Darwinism inspired and advanced Nazism

Yes, and the earth is only 6,000 years old

/

12 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:00:01pm

re: #9 VegasRick
Wouldn't be as much as you think.

13 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:00:07pm

re: #9 VegasRick

I wish I had $1 for every ID/Darwin post.
/just sayin'

Yeah. You'd get about $18 every 60 days.

Don't spend it all in one place.

14 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:00:25pm

re: #10 gclaghorn

Ah, I thought you had left us after you threw a temper tantrum on the last evolution thread. But alas, you are still here, still being our "pinata, spitting out stupid every time we hit you," as Neil Stevens says.

Pinatas have candy in them, right? Heh.

15 jorline  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:00:58pm

re: #7 stretch

"it filled you with hatred"..."it fills me with contempt"? really? this guy sounds like a radical hate-monger

Adding to your karma count I see.

16 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:01:29pm

re: #14 Wyatt Earp

Pinatas have candy in them, right? Heh.

Fine. You may have a piece of candy now.

17 tntb  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:01:37pm
He refers to advocates of eugenics as liberal.

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

18 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:01:48pm

But, where would I put it if I won it? Next to the X's left testicle over my mantle?

19 NYCHardhat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:01:56pm

This seems to be a polarizing subject.

20 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:01:59pm
21 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:02:03pm

re: #16 gclaghorn

Fine. You may have a piece of candy now.

Whoo hoo! Sorry. Candy on the brain.

22 joecitizen  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:02:28pm

re: #13 Charles

Yeah. You'd get about $18 every 60 days.

Don't spend it all in one place.

2 + per week..jaysus! heh

23 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:02:47pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

Is that statistic true today? Do you have a link?

24 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:02:52pm

re: #15 jorline

Adding to your Earl Hickey bad karma count I see.


Slight edit requirement

25 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:02:55pm

re: #13 Charles

Yeah. You'd get about $18 every 60 days.

Don't spend it all in one place.

I did say post and not thread. And I was alluding (as a joke) to the # of posts these kind of threads usually generate. And I was just kidding.

26 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:03:29pm

Hi, Mandy, howzit going?

27 jorline  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:03:48pm

re: #24 A Kiwi Infidel

Slight edit requirement

ding

28 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:03:57pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

Mind you, I know about Sanger and her eugenicism. I'm just wondering if the statistic about African-American terminations is correct today, as in, within the past five years.

29 Sabba Hillel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:04:14pm

The arguments on both sides seem to be ridiculous. Those who attempt to use evolution to "prove" the religion of atheism are just as bad as those who attempt to "disprove" the theory of evolution because of their belief in G-d.

Just because G-d may have decided to use evolution as part of the laws of this universe does not mean that He does not exist. In fact, given the definition of G-d as all-powerful and all-knowing, we cannot prove that the Universe was or was not created 5 minutes, 5 years, 5,769 years or 5,769,000 years ago.

As a result, the entire argument seems to be silly and not really appropriate. One should not use evolution or any other aspect of science to attempt to set up a system of laws and morality.

30 joecitizen  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:04:25pm

re: #18 MandyManners

But, where would I put it if I won it? Next to the X's left testicle over my mantle?

one wonders what made ya decide on the left one..or just the left one, perhaps

31 theheat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:04:27pm

re: #5 6pat6

He also has excellent taste in furniture, and has a lot of gorgeous Art Deco pieces. And it sounds like after all his medical problems, he has a pretty nice wife, too.

I like him twice as much, now, for shaking out the nuances of Stein's idiotic film and hanging them out for all to see, like so much laundry. He could have simply said the film sucked in 300 words or less, but he put his teeth into it.

32 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:05:18pm

re: #7 stretch
I really don't think Ebert is a "radical hate monger? Do you? Really?

33 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:05:27pm

Hola, Mandy!

34 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:05:59pm

re: #32 pingjockey

I really don't think Ebert is a "radical hate monger? Do you? Really?

I sometimes think so when he trashes a movie I like, but about this? Not at all. :)

35 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:06:00pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

And who was the biggest supporter of eugenics (a president) and is progressive the same then as it is now?

36 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:06:16pm

Wow. Read the whole thing. I was expecting "just" a film review. Ebert does a great job with this.

37 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:06:31pm
38 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:07:12pm
39 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:07:22pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

Eugenics is the antithesis of evolutionary theory. Whereas evolutionary theorists would prefer to leave environmental selection alone to do its work unhindered, eugenicists can't seem to resist imposing their own pet 'intelligent' design. Darwin's books were banned in the Third Reich.

Eugenics, or the application of animal husbandry - selective breeding and herd-culling - to humans, is an idea as old as Plato.

40 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:08:02pm

re: #32 pingjockey

I really don't think Ebert is a "radical hate monger? Do you? Really?

I think Stretch just crawls out from under the troll bridge every Evolution thread and goes back when the thread is over and everyone has moved on.

41 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:08:50pm

Oh, and abortion was illegal under the Third Reich, too. Instead, they had lebensborns, where women chosen for Aryan Characteristics were forcibly bred to selected SS officers, in order to increase the ranks of the Volk.

42 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:08:51pm

re: #10 gclaghorn

nope, sorry to disappoint - still here. Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics (slaughtering African pygmies and whatnot)? It could be quite therapeutic. Deep down inside, don't you think that you ARE more evolved that some other races?

43 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:09:08pm

re: #34 Wyatt Earp
I pay no attention to film reviews. I do pay more attention now as to who is in the movie. I will not see a flic with Sean Penn, Mr. Susan Sarandon, Jane Fonda(not to relevant), and a few others.

44 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:09:11pm

Did the humans kill the dinosaurs or did the humans like the dinosaurs?

45 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:09:42pm

re: #42 stretch

nope, sorry to disappoint - still here. Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics (slaughtering African pygmies and whatnot)? It could be quite therapeutic. Deep down inside, don't you think that you ARE more evolved that some other races?

I, for one, do not slaughter African pygmies, and never have, thank you.

46 Piecemaker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:09:46pm
He refers to advocates of eugenics as liberal. I would not call Hitler liberal.

That's a shame.

Especially since Hitler's beliefs were more in line with liberals, than with conservatism: [Link: www.danielpipes.org...]
[Link: constitutionalistnc.tripod.com...]

47 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:09:51pm

re: #30 joecitizen

one wonders what made ya decide on the left one..or just the left one, perhaps

Arbitrary decisions are sometimes made.

48 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:09:57pm

re: #41 Salamantis

Oh, and abortion was illegal under the Third Reich, too. Instead, they had lebensborns, where women chosen for Aryan Characteristics were forcibly bred to RAPED BY selected SS officers, in order to increase the ranks of the Volk.

another slight edit requirement

49 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:10:21pm

re: #39 Salamantis

Eugenics is the antithesis of evolutionary theory. Whereas evolutionary theorists would prefer to leave environmental selection alone to do its work unhindered, eugenicists can't seem to resist imposing their own pet 'intelligent' design. Darwin's books were banned in the Third Reich.

Eugenics, or the application of animal husbandry - selective breeding and herd-culling - to humans, is an idea as old as Plato.

Correct... but TNTB, who doesn't understand the subject, is using the simple-minded argument and trying to connect eugenics and all this to "liberals" and scary evolutionist.

50 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:10:41pm

Good one, Ebert. The last three paragraphs of the review are very strong.

"This film is cheerfully ignorant, manipulative, slanted, cherry-picks quotations, draws unwarranted conclusions, makes outrageous juxtapositions (Soviet marching troops representing opponents of ID), pussy-foots around religion (not a single identified believer among the ID people), segues between quotes that are not about the same thing, tells bald-faced lies, and makes a completely baseless association between freedom of speech and freedom to teach religion in a university class that is not about religion."

...and the closing:
"It is not difficult for me to describe how you made me feel by exploiting the deaths of millions of Jews in support of your argument for a peripheral Christian belief. It fills me with contempt."

51 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:10:59pm

re: #42 stretch

I don't usually get involved in the ID/evolution threads, but who is this idiot?

52 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:11:24pm

re: #40 gclaghorn
...don't mind being the only one, and not like 'everyone'. thanks for the encouragement

53 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:11:47pm

re: #51 Noam Sayin'

I don't usually get involved in the ID/evolution threads, but who is this idiot?

See my #40.

54 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:11:54pm

re: #41 Salamantis

Oh, and abortion was illegal under the Third Reich, too. Instead, they had lebensborns, where women chosen for Aryan Characteristics were forcibly bred to selected SS officers, in order to increase the ranks of the Volk.

/too lazy to link

55 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:11:55pm

re: #29 Sabba Hillel

The arguments on both sides seem to be ridiculous. Those who attempt to use evolution to "prove" the religion of atheism are just as bad as those who attempt to "disprove" the theory of evolution because of their belief in G-d.

Just because G-d may have decided to use evolution as part of the laws of this universe does not mean that He does not exist. In fact, given the definition of G-d as all-powerful and all-knowing, we cannot prove that the Universe was or was not created 5 minutes, 5 years, 5,769 years or 5,769,000 years ago.

As a result, the entire argument seems to be silly and not really appropriate. One should not use evolution or any other aspect of science to attempt to set up a system of laws and morality.

Yeah...an omnipotent God who would inscribe lies in the Book of Nature just so he can deceive human beings...sounds like a deity I could really reverence...

/

56 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:12:14pm

re: #42 stretch
Hello, would you please share, with those who partake, whatever killer weed you are smoking.

57 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:12:30pm

re: #44 experiencedtraveller

Did the humans kill the dinosaurs or did the humans like the dinosaurs?

Well, according to The Flintstones, they lived in equal harmony . . .

58 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:12:32pm
It fills me with contempt.


Indeed.

59 joecitizen  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:12:50pm

re: #56 pingjockey

Hello, would you please share, with those who partake, whatever killer weed you are smoking.

truly it is loco weed..

60 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:12:56pm

re: #52 stretch

...don't mind being the only one, and not like 'everyone'. thanks for the encouragement

Oh, bravo, you brave, brave soul.

/

61 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:12:59pm

I liked it when Ben Stein wrote for Penthouse. He was smart informative and witty. And of course being surrounded by other boobs, he didnt look quite the pussy that he is.

62 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:13:02pm

re: #25 VegasRick

I did say post and not thread. And I was alluding (as a joke) to the # of posts these kind of threads usually generate. And I was just kidding.

I guess I am not going to get any response after gettin down dinged for my comment. See you all later. No harm, no foul, hopefully

63 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:13:27pm

re: #42 stretch

nope, sorry to disappoint - still here. Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics (slaughtering African pygmies and whatnot)? It could be quite therapeutic. Deep down inside, don't you think that you ARE more evolved that some other races?

See posts #39 and 41, and remember that it was by means of evolutionary genetics that it was proven that we're all members of the same race - the human race.

64 Clemente  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:13:28pm

Heh. Open reg followed by ID thread!

S. Beaumont channels Jebediah Nightlinger:

I regret trifling with married women. I'm thoroughly ashamed at cheating at cards. I deplore my occasional departures from the truth. Forgive me for taking your name in vain, my Saturday drunkenness, my Sunday sloth. Above all, forgive me for the men hatchlings I've killed in anger...

[eyes shifting to Asa Watts fresh-yet-gamey-hatchling hindquarters]

... and those I am about to.

/gotta go fix some popcorn.

65 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:13:28pm

re: #56 pingjockey

Hello, would you please share, with those who partake, whatever killer weed you are smoking.

I was about to call for the stick, but if he's got herb...

66 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:13:51pm

re: #52 stretch

...don't mind being the only one, and not like 'everyone'. thanks for the encouragement

You don't mind being the only idiot? Go for it if that's what yanks your crank.

Please provide a link to your pygmy remark.

And please provide links to any of your statements. I have noticed in previous threads where you were making a fool of yourself, you lack the ability to cut and paste a link.

67 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:14:02pm

Egad --- Stein makes such a huge leap from Darwin's evolution to Nazi selective breeding - it scales the missing link by chasms

68 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:14:19pm

re: #56 pingjockey

Hello, would you please share, with those who partake, whatever killer weed you are smoking.

Ancient killer hemp .. from an old tomb .. it has that extra dead guy buzz to it.

69 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:14:45pm

re: #13 Charles

Yeah. You'd get about $18 every 60 days.

Don't spend it all in one place.

I'd prefer $1 for every deleted post and ban hammer deployment generated by these posts. I always enjoy the discussions and meltdowns that occur. I for one hope they keep coming. Keep the discussion and focus going and keep up the great work Charles.

70 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:05pm

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

You don't mind being the only idiot? Go for it if that's what yanks your crank.

Please provide a link to your pygmy remark.

And please provide links to any of your statements. I have noticed in previous threads where you were making a fool of yourself, you lack the ability to cut and paste a link.

To link requires a functioning brain and an IQ higher than that of a box of Froot Loops, both of which {stretch} clearly lacks.

71 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:06pm

What a time to drop in for an evening chat......
An ID thread.

*rolls up sleeves, picks up clue bat*

I'm only going to say this once.

IT'S Turtles all the way down!

72 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:18pm

re: #67 Right mind left

Egad --- Stein makes such a huge leap from Darwin's evolution to Nazi selective breeding - it scales the missing link by chasms

He puts the "eaps" and "ounds" in "leaps" and "bounds".

73 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:22pm

re: #69 CynicalConservative

I'd prefer $1 for every deleted post and ban hammer deployment generated by these posts. I always enjoy the discussions and meltdowns that occur. I for one hope they keep coming. Keep the discussion and focus going and keep up the great work Charles.

I enjoy the extra pairs of sock puppets i get to wear.

74 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:25pm
"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and inauthentic in manner. If the film is not quite as electrifying as Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," that may be because Moore has toned down his usual exuberance and was sobered by attacks on the factual accuracy of elements of "Columbine"; playing with larger stakes, he is more cautious here, and we get an op-ed piece, not a stand-up routine. But he remains one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape, a populist rabble-rouser, humorous and effective; the outrage and incredulity in his film are an exhilarating response to Bush's determined repetition of the same stubborn sound bites.

--Roger Ebert, arbiter of all that is right and proper in film documentaries.

IOW... watch out for fleas

75 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:46pm

re: #51 Noam Sayin'

wow! - hitting some nerves on this thread. I guess eugenics does come close to home for some of you guys. Check your meds next time before you post.

76 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:15:54pm

Hitler was the missing link between an obscure population of sub-humans and the SS: sub-sub human. Darwinism in reverse.

77 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:01pm

re: #71 JCM

What a time to drop in for an evening chat......
An ID thread.

*rolls up sleeves, picks up clue bat*

I'm only going to say this once.

IT'S Turtles all the way down!

I thought it was CLITONITES ALL THE WAY DOWN.

78 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:08pm

re: #65 Noam Sayin'
It has got to be some really good shit! That's some whacked smack he/she/it is posting! Last thing I heard we were all one race.

79 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:12pm

re: #42 stretch

nope, sorry to disappoint - still here. Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics (slaughtering African pygmies and whatnot)? It could be quite therapeutic. Deep down inside, don't you think that you ARE more evolved that some other races?

GAZE

80 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:22pm

re: #73 Buster Bunny

I enjoy the extra pairs of sock puppets i get to wear.

I'll file that under "Things that make you go hmmmmmm?"

81 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:27pm

re: #75 stretch

wow! - hitting some nerves on this thread. I guess eugenics does come close to home for some of you guys. Check your meds next time before you post.

I'll check my meds when you put down the weed.

82 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:36pm

re: #75 stretch

I put the meds away, thinking you'd share your weed.

Stingy bastard.

83 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:16:51pm

re: #76 DistantThunder

Hitler was the missing link between an obscure population of sub-humans and the SS: sub-sub human. Darwinism in reverse.

*scratching head*

Are you saying Schickelgruber was more evolved than his minions?

84 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:03pm

re: #42 stretch

Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics

Some Christians have been and still are supporters of eugenics....
Catholicism and Eugenics in the Weimar Republic and in the Third Reich

"Christian" Eugenics

You can google it and learn more if you're interessted.

85 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #81 gclaghorn

I'll check my meds when you put down the weed.

Give the guy a break. It's medicinal for his glaucoma. He can't see common sense.

86 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #77 MandyManners

I thought it was CLITONITES ALL THE WAY DOWN.

Clintonites are like cockroaches - they will always be with us.

87 joecitizen  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:12pm

re: #77 MandyManners

I thought it was CLITONITES ALL THE WAY DOWN.


the endless evolving clit? I like it...

88 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:20pm

re: #71 JCM

What a time to drop in for an evening chat......
An ID thread.*rolls up sleeves, picks up clue bat*I'm only going to say this once. IT'S Turtles all the way down!

You keep touting that old theory, over and over, yet you never post any info supporting your contention.

89 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:24pm

re: #54 Killian Bundy

|Here ya go:

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

90 Joan  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:28pm

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

"Liberal" and "Conservative" appear to be the only political terms people want to use in describing historical events and trends. Today's liberals love to call every negative, tyrannical movement in the world "conservative" no matter what the ideology. It would be nice, in a way, to lay every negative trend at the doorstep of Democrats; but maybe a bit tendentious.

91 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:41pm

re: #41 Salamantis

Oh, and abortion was illegal under the Third Reich, too. Instead, they had lebensborns, where women chosen for Aryan Characteristics were forcibly bred to selected SS officers, in order to increase the ranks of the Volk.

Are you trying to say that a person who is anti-abortion must "instead" be a supporter of forced breeding?

92 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:43pm

re: #83 MandyManners

*scratching head*

Are you saying Schickelgruber was more evolved than his minions?

They were his spawn after all.

93 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:17:50pm

re: #77 MandyManners

I thought it was CLITONITES ALL THE WAY DOWN.

That's in DC, different universe. Where not really sure what happened there, but it went horrible wrong.

94 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:09pm

re: #71 JCM
IS NOT! There's an aardvark in there. Did you see the Goddamn bullshit in Olympia in the Capitol Rotunda? It made O'Reilly last night.

95 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:14pm

re: #63 Salamantis

See posts #39 and 41, and remember that it was by means of evolutionary genetics that it was proven that we're all members of the same race - the human race.

Bravo, Salamantis! Well spoken and concise: Perfect for a troll smackdown!

96 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:18pm

re: #75 stretch

wow! - hitting some nerves on this thread. I guess eugenics does come close to home for some of you guys. Check your meds next time before you post.

FUCK YOU!

You leave Noam alone.

97 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:21pm

re: #72 MandyManners

He puts the "eaps" and "ounds" in "leaps" and "bounds".

(not to incite things any, but...)
HA - a lot like our stretttchh upthread, too?!?///

98 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:41pm

eugenics is the ultimate tool for genocidal pre-emption. The possiblity that 'we are better than you therefore you SHOULDNT EXIST' has been successfully used at least six times SINCE the holocaust.

Darfur .. Kashmir .. Pakistan (Pure State) Bangladesh Algeria .. not to mention Sudan.

Every reason to be scared of the principle.

99 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:51pm

re: #96 MandyManners

That's my girl...

*peck*

100 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:59pm

re: #57 Wyatt Earp

Well, according to The Flintstones, they lived in equal harmony . . .

Damn, so Uncle Fred WAS yanking my chain when he said he had a pet Brontosaurus!

/damn, do I really need to?

101 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:18:59pm

re: #86 DistantThunder

Clintonites are like cockroaches - they will always be with us.

Even after global, thermonuclear war.

102 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:19:01pm

re: #96 MandyManners

FUCK YOU!

You leave Noam alone.

F**K {STRETCH} AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON!

103 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:19:09pm

Margaret Sanger attended and spoke at a KKK rally in NJ.

104 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:19:12pm

re: #87 joecitizen

Dagnabit.

105 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #96 MandyManners

FUCK YOU!

You leave Noam alone.

Yea..Noam is cool

106 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:03pm

re: #92 DistantThunder

They were his spawn after all.

*scratching head*

Gonna' hafta' think on that for a bit.

107 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:08pm

re: #90 Joan

"Liberal" and "Conservative" appear to be the only political terms people want to use in describing historical events and trends. Today's liberals love to call every negative, tyrannical movement in the world "conservative" no matter what the ideology. It would be nice, in a way, to lay every negative trend at the doorstep of Democrats; but maybe a bit tendentious.

I think you are trying to make my point. Progressive meant a real different thing when Roosevelt started the Progressive Party (Bull Moose). Posters like "stretch" miss these fact, over and over. And Roosevelt was a big supporter of eugenics.

108 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:08pm

re: #88 Walter L. Newton

You keep touting that old theory, over and over, yet you never post any info supporting your contention.

I have PROOF!.

A suppressed NASA Hubble image, I got from a friend who knows a guy that knew someone who was married to someone who's was a 3rd cousin to a janitor at NASA.

109 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:09pm

re: #75 stretch

wow! - hitting some nerves on this thread. I guess eugenics does come close to home for some of you guys. Check your meds next time before you post.

Smack! Then back to GAZE.

110 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:11pm

re: #74 Zimriel

Ebert definitely had his head firmly in Michael Moore's gigantic ass when he reviewed F9/11.

111 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:14pm

re: #46 Piecemaker

That's a shame.

Especially since Hitler's beliefs were more in line with liberals, than with conservatism: [Link: www.danielpipes.org...]
[Link: constitutionalistnc.tripod.com...]

I don't know many classic liberals who would burn copies of Origin of Species...Stalinistic leftists, maybe, since it contradicted Malenkoism...

112 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:51pm

I liked Ben Stein too. This asshattery from him bites.

113 J'accuzzi  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:52pm

Ying and Yang. Nutsies and Nazis.

114 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:20:53pm

re: #93 JCM

That's in DC, different universe. Where not really sure what happened there, but it went horrible wrong.

It's the swamp gasses.

115 Clemente  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:21:01pm

re: #77 MandyManners

I thought it was CLITONITES ALL THE WAY DOWN.

Couldn't just make it into a boob thread and leave it at that, eh?

116 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:21:02pm

The trolls are crawling out of the wordwork, everyone...set your phasers on GAZE...

117 gman  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:21:10pm

The cartoon at the bottom sums up the "teach both theories" argument so well.

118 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:21:37pm

re: #98 Buster Bunny

and Rwanda. and the Baltics,

119 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:21:47pm

re: #103 DistantThunder

Margaret Sanger attended and spoke at a KKK rally in NJ.

LINK

Given Margaret Sanger's preoccupation with race (see previous article), it should come as no surprise to anyone that Sanger would accept an invitation to give a speech to an organization that also has a preoccupation with race - the Ku Klux Klan. Not only did Sanger accept the invitation, but the excerpt below from her own 1938 autobiography indicates the she got along quite well with members of a New Jersey branch of the Ku Klux Klan, eventually getting a "dozen invitations to speak to similar groups."

Perhaps this is because the KKK's ideas and Margaret Sanger's ideas concerning race are so similar. No doubt the KKK must have been happy with Sanger's "Negro Project" which was designed to cut down on the number of black babies being born. In a December 10, 1939 letter, Margaret Sanger wrote to Dr. Clarence Gamble about her "Negro Project," saying, "We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." (See Blessed Are The Barren The Social Policy of Planned Parenthood by Robert Marshall and Charles Donovan, Ignatius Press, 1991, pages 17-18.)

Here is Sanger's account of her trip to talk to the Ku Klux Klan from pages 366-367 of Margaret Sanger An Autobiography (1971 reprint by Dover Publications, Inc. of the 1938 original published by W.W. Norton & Company).

120 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:21:47pm

re: #97 Right mind left

(not to incite things any, but...)
HA - a lot like our stretttchh upthread, too?!?///

See my No. 96, please.

121 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:22:12pm

re: #99 Noam Sayin'

That's my girl...

*peck*

*giggle*

*smooch*

122 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:22:32pm

re: #103 DistantThunder

Margaret Sanger attended and spoke at a KKK rally in NJ.

Linky?

123 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:22:35pm

re: #108 JCM

I have PROOF!.

A suppressed NASA Hubble image, I got from a friend who knows a guy that knew someone who was married to someone who's was a 3rd cousin to a janitor at NASA.

Just checking. Ok, well, that explains a lot of things. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I know where the Island in LOST went to.

124 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:07pm

re: #99 Noam Sayin'

That's my girl...

*peck*

re: #121 MandyManners

*giggle*

*smooch*

OH! For Pete's sake!
Get a room!
/ ;-P

126 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:19pm

re: #105 HoosierHoops

Yea..Noam is cool

Oh, you know it.

127 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:27pm

re: #119 DistantThunder

So what? Margaret Sanger has been dead for 42 years, and her ideas had nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution. The issue is a creationist red herring.

128 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:29pm

re: #122 MandyManners

Linky?

See my 119

129 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:43pm

re: #75 stretch

wow! - hitting some nerves on this thread. I guess eugenics does come close to home for some of you guys. Check your meds next time before you post.

No, people just hate to see empirical science illegitimately accused of political insanity.

130 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:50pm

re: #115 Clemente

Couldn't just make it into a boob thread and leave it at that, eh?

Dagnabit II.

131 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:23:55pm

re: #118 mich-again

and Rwanda. and the Baltics,

No .. i deliberately left out the Baltics. Thats been a Saudi inspired war of hate waged against the Russians. You go look up the leaders of the operations in the Baltics. You'll find that they are all ex-Saudi princes. Its a proxy war not a eugenics war.

132 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:08pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

Just checking. Ok, well, that explains a lot of things. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I know where the Island in LOST went to.

Can't help you on that one. I'm still struggle with the 3 hour cruise......

133 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:25pm

re: #115 Clemente

Couldn't just make it into a boob thread and leave it at that, eh?

Ahhhh, boobs...mmmmmmmmmm!

134 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:33pm

re: #121 MandyManners

*giggle*

*smooch*

I'm leaving......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

135 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:41pm

re: #124 JCM

*blush*

136 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:49pm

re: #121 MandyManners

*pinch*

137 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:50pm

re: #130 MandyManners

Dagnabit II.

Did somebody say "boobs?"

138 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:24:54pm

re: #134 A Kiwi Infidel

I'm leaving......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

TTFN, Kiwi! See you later.

139 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:00pm

re: #120 MandyManners

See my No. 96, please.

I did - that was GREAT!

There should be a mandatory corner we can send him to (he/she/it)

140 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:18pm

re: #111 Salamantis

I don't know many classic liberals who would burn copies of Origin of Species...

But we shouldn't confuse classic liberalism with the modern version of the L-word.

141 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:26pm

re: #132 JCM

Can't help you on that one. I'm still struggle with the 3 hour cruise......

Yeah, what's with that? Plus, they took everything they owned on that damn boat! Except batteries!

142 theheat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:39pm

re: #44 experiencedtraveller

Surely, you've seen the the first Dino Rodeo at the Creation Museum, haven't you? Heck, they rode 'em!

They also used dino doo in their gardens, the ones where the little girls are playing.

143 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:41pm

Ebert was ebullient over Moore's Fahrenheit 911. Stein is a putz. Stein and Moore both made stuff up. I can't stand either of them. I can't stand Ebert either. He's as left as you can get.

144 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:45pm

re: #89 Salamantis

|Here ya go:

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

There ya go, was that so hard? Always link assertions.

/even if the point is obvious, your memory isn't common knowledge and a lot of LGF readers shouldn't have to take your word for history, besides it keeps you busy for a while

145 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:46pm

re: #85 Wyatt Earp
that's a good one - there are only a few lingering effects, honest!

146 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:25:50pm

re: #74 Zimriel

I was thinking about going and trying to dig that up. A stopped watch is right twice a day, and all that. I'm not sure I'd put too much stock in what Ebert says on, well, any subject.

147 6pat6  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:26:11pm

re: #143 HelloDare

I can't stand any of the three, either.

148 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:26:14pm

re: #145 stretch

Suck-up.

149 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:26:38pm

re: #140 mich-again

But we shouldn't confuse classic liberalism with the modern version of the L-word.

Lesbian?

150 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:26:56pm

re: #91 reine.de.tout

Are you trying to say that a person who is anti-abortion must "instead" be a supporter of forced breeding?

No, I'm saying that the opposite of anti-abortion is forced abortion, as in China, not reproductive choice, as in the US. No one is legally forcing women to end pregnancies against their wills here.

151 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:27:03pm

re: #127 Charles

So what? Margaret Sanger has been dead for 42 years, and her ideas had nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution. The issue is a creationist red herring.

There were all kinds of people supporting some form of eugenics, and even certain laws existed right through the 20th century. Eugenics was not a conservative versus liberal issue.

Read this article and see how many people supported it in some form. Also noticed how little eugenics has to do with evolution.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

152 solomonpanting  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:27:10pm
Intelligent Design "scientists" in "Expelled" are offended by being called ignorant. When Stein points out that "Catholics and mainstream Protestant groups" have no problem with the theory of Evolution, he is informed by an ID advocate, "liberal Christians side with anybody against Creationists." Now we have the smoking gun. It is the word liberal. What is the word liberal doing here? The Theory of Evolution is neither liberal nor conservative. It is simply provable or not.

Unlike beliefs.

153 Mr Spiffy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:27:10pm

re: #30 joecitizen

It hangs lower (at least mine does)

154 swamprat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:27:17pm

re: #42 stretch

nope, sorry to disappoint - still here. Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics (slaughtering African pygmies and whatnot)? It could be quite therapeutic. Deep down inside, don't you think that you ARE more evolved that some other races?

How many Pygmies?
How did they manage to debone all those poor souls?
Who paid the shipping costs for all those skeletons?
Where are they now? There should be stacks of them, somewhere.

The story is bogus. A fake.

155 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:27:18pm

re: #149 Buster Bunny

Lesbian?

Lactose?

157 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:28:12pm

re: #145 stretch

that's a good one - there are only a few lingering effects, honest!

I am still waiting for your "killing pygmies" link?

158 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:28:24pm

re: #127 Charles

So what? Margaret Sanger has been dead for 42 years, and her ideas had nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution. The issue is a creationist red herring.

I didn't know it was a creationist talking point - I only posted it because her name came up and I thought it was a little known fact. I posted the same article on a feminist news site and the women were apoplectic having worshipped Sanger for her birth control revolution - but unaware of her eugenics bent.

159 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:28:36pm

Ebert doesn't sound especially friendly to Michael Moore in this review: "Smug and disengenuous..."

"...Spurlock has been called the poor man's Michael Moore, an assessment that's neither fair nor accurate. His filmmaking may be comparably poor, and he does present himself as the first-person star of his essay-showcase movies, but Spurlock's gags don't depend on stupid, insufferably self-serving set-ups designed to place himself in a superior position to whoever's on camera. For that reason, and because his agit-prop presentation is strictly anecdotal, Spurlock's approach feels less smug and disingenuous than Moore's."


[Link: rogerebert.suntimes.com...]

160 EmmmieG  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:28:42pm

Speaking as someone who believes the Bible to be the word of God, and who does not also believe that dinosaurs were dragons, (?), I just have one comment to make:

It's a really bad idea to take a Bible verse and try to build a scientific idea out of it. They hung a guy back in 1600 for postulating that there were more planets than this one, because they were basing their science on the Bible. Bad idea, because it's bad logic.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That doesn't make the Bible untrue, or full of bad ideas. It just means it was never meant to be a science textbook. If God meant for us to be ignorant schlumps, he never would have sent us Isaac Newton or Benjamin Franklin.

161 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:28:43pm

re: #128 DistantThunder

See my 119

Thanks!

My home-town STILL has a statue of Forrest. Unfuckingbelievable.

162 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:28:57pm

re: #149 Buster Bunny

Nope.

163 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:29:13pm

re: #148 gclaghorn

Suck-up.

Will you marry me? :)

164 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:29:20pm

re: #134 A Kiwi Infidel

I'm leaving......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Have a good day!

165 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:29:52pm

re: #163 Wyatt Earp

Will you marry me? :)

No, no, no, you're doing it all wrong -- now, get down on one knee...

166 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:29:56pm

re: #136 Noam Sayin'

*WHACK*

167 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:30:05pm

re: #29 Sabba Hillel

The arguments on both sides seem to be ridiculous. Those who attempt to use evolution to "prove" the religion of atheism are just as bad as those who attempt to "disprove" the theory of evolution because of their belief in G-d.

Just because G-d may have decided to use evolution as part of the laws of this universe does not mean that He does not exist. In fact, given the definition of G-d as all-powerful and all-knowing, we cannot prove that the Universe was or was not created 5 minutes, 5 years, 5,769 years or 5,769,000 years ago.

As a result, the entire argument seems to be silly and not really appropriate. One should not use evolution or any other aspect of science to attempt to set up a system of laws and morality.

Hey, tell it to Aristotle, upon whose works some of our laws are based.
Or Plato
Or Marcus Aurelius etc. etc. etc.

168 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:30:20pm

re: #156 MandyManners

That's a long read but, does it take into account the higher numbers of African-American single women over the past 20 years? I mean, 1969-2000 is the time-frame.

Who knows? I got MEGO long before the end.

But the abortion rate is declining. Or was when the paper was published.

169 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:30:35pm

re: #139 Right mind left

I did - that was GREAT!

There should be a mandatory corner we can send him to (he/she/it)

Up to Charles.

170 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:30:41pm

re: #165 gclaghorn

No, no, no, you're doing it all wrong -- now, get down on one knee...

I said, "marry," not . . . Oh, never mind.

171 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:31:07pm

re: #160 EmmmieG

Speaking as someone who believes the Bible to be the word of God, and who does not also believe that dinosaurs were dragons, (?), I just have one comment to make:

It's a really bad idea to take a Bible verse and try to build a scientific idea out of it. They hung a guy back in 1600 for postulating that there were more planets than this one, because they were basing their science on the Bible. Bad idea, because it's bad logic.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That doesn't make the Bible untrue, or full of bad ideas. It just means it was never meant to be a science textbook. If God meant for us to be ignorant schlumps, he never would have sent us Isaac Newton or Benjamin Franklin.

Actually .. i'm a believer in the idea that God works in 'Whammys' i.e. big steering events that modulate the existing show in progress. Think Nazis .. think Amalek, think Volcanos that change history. It seems to be that he lets things boulder along and then when he needs to step in its quick and sharp.

172 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:31:22pm

re: #169 MandyManners

Up to Charles.

Why do we need to make a corner for people like {stretch}? We already have insane asylums...

/

173 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:31:43pm

re: #171 Buster Bunny

Actually .. i'm a believer in the idea that God works in 'Whammys' i.e. big steering events that modulate the existing show in progress. Think Nazis .. think Amalek, think Volcanos that change history. It seems to be that he lets things boulder along and then when he needs to step in its quick and sharp.

Think Vogons!

174 jorline  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:32:05pm

Stretch's karma total doesn't even equal annefrance's (sp) one comment down ding total of over 300. Remember that?

175 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:32:05pm

re: #144 Killian Bundy

There ya go, was that so hard? Always link assertions.

/even if the point is obvious, your memory isn't common knowledge and a lot of LGF readers shouldn't have to take your word for history, besides it keeps you busy for a while

Don't worry...I eventually get around to replying to all the posts I wanna reply to anyway...

176 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:32:48pm

Here is the last paragraph of Ebert review of "Fahrenheit 9/11"

"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and inauthentic in manner. If the film is not quite as electrifying as Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," that may be because Moore has toned down his usual exuberance and was sobered by attacks on the factual accuracy of elements of "Columbine"; playing with larger stakes, he is more cautious here, and we get an op-ed piece, not a stand-up routine. But he remains one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape, a populist rabble-rouser, humorous and effective; the outrage and incredulity in his film are an exhilarating response to Bush's determined repetition of the same stubborn sound bites.

177 Steve Rogers  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:32:59pm

When an articulate, well-respected, media-savvy conservative, libertarian, conservative-libertarian, etc. makes a real and entertaining documentary about the benefits of limited government, more freedom, more personal responsibility, etc. and leaves out all the pseudo-scientific nonsense that tries to pass bronze-age myths off as legitimate scientific theories, then – and only then – will a documentary help Republicans start to win more elections. Stein did far more harm to Republicans by preaching to "Creationists" than he or "Creationists" realize. Only "Creationists" went to see that movie. Rational moderate voters who saw any advertisements or news stories about it kept that in the back of their minds at the voting booth. We all know the result.

And should such a documentary ever really be made, once those future Republicans get in office, they need to publicly ignore every "Creationist" and "Intelligent Design" advocate that tries to get them to pass legislation in order to force their religion disguised as science down the throats of other people's children in government schools.

178 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:33:00pm

re: #42 stretch

nope, sorry to disappoint - still here. Are there any evolutionists out there who are honest enough to face their history in eugenics (slaughtering African pygmies and whatnot)? It could be quite therapeutic. Deep down inside, don't you think that you ARE more evolved that some other races?

No because most evolutionists do not base their identity or their self upon their race. Most racists tend to do so however.

179 Joan  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:33:08pm

re: #133 6pat6

Ahhhh, boobs...mmmmmmmmmm!

Speaking of boobs: "I've now been in 57 states -- I think one left to go." --at The Dear Leader at a campaign event in Beaverton, Oregon

180 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:33:19pm

re: #174 jorline

Stretch's karma total doesn't even equal annefrance's (sp) one comment down ding total of over 300. Remember that?

I think he wants to be the Barry Bonds of bad karma. Actually, that's kind of redundant.

181 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:33:35pm

re: #174 jorline

Stretch's karma total doesn't even equal annefrance's (sp) one comment down ding total of over 300. Remember that?

He really does refuse to provide links to his grade-school level pronouncements, doesn't he?

Can you say Edgar?

182 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:33:35pm

re: #166 MandyManners

*WHACK*

183 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:34:33pm

re: #181 Walter L. Newton

He really does refuse to provide links to his grade-school level pronouncements, doesn't he?

Can you say Edgar?

Still got cans of Edgar-Off?

184 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:34:53pm

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

Think Vogons!

WTF does the Restaurant at The End of The Universe have to do with serious theology? I mean .. take a look at a timeline of ANYTHING .. it seems to peter along for an extended period and then there is a Whammy which throws the whole event / society into chaos or deletion. Is it a G-d inspired hand? who knows? but it seems to be consistant throughout history. Sure there could be sociological influences, but .. a LOT of them seem inspired.

185 Joan  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:35:01pm

re: #151 Walter L. Newton

There were all kinds of people supporting some form of eugenics, and even certain laws existed right through the 20th century. Eugenics was not a conservative versus liberal issue.

Read this article and see how many people supported it in some form. Also noticed how little eugenics has to do with evolution.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Anybody want to write a book about scientism and the political abuse of science? Or, steer me to a good title, so I can stop obsessing.

186 Clemente  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:35:55pm

re: #166 MandyManners

*WHACK*

That's gonna leave a mark...

187 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:36:10pm

Shake... shake... shake... press... press... pppsssttt... pppsssttt... pppsssttt...

Stretch-off (as seens on TV) formely Edgar-off.

(I'm waiting for a troll to sign up on LFG with a name like "piss")

188 EmmmieG  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:36:18pm

re: #171 Buster Bunny

I do have a big of trouble not believing in God when there is chocolate in the world.

189 Abdullah al-Libi  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:36:39pm

So this creep doesn't like this silly movie. BFD. Ebert is still an arrogant POS.

190 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:16pm

re: #188 EmmmieG

I do have a big of trouble not believing in God when there is chocolate in the world.

Beer....
Beer is proof God wants us to be happy!

191 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #185 Joan

Anybody want to write a book about scientism and the political abuse of science?


The political abuse of science is as old as history itself. "Scientism" is a fictional belief system invented by creationists. It doesn't exist.

192 bitterclinger_in_PA  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:21pm

"It is not difficult for me to describe how you made me feel by exploiting the deaths of millions of Jews in support of your argument for a peripheral Christian belief. It fills me with contempt."

It is not a peripheral Christian belief to believe God made man, earth, stars and sun. It is the truth. I feel sorry for all the people who have heard the truth and turn their back on God and His Word. Evolution is the secular liberal excuse to take God out of everything.

193 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:21pm

re: #177 Steve Rogers

When an articulate, well-respected, media-savvy conservative, libertarian, conservative-libertarian, etc. makes a real and entertaining documentary about the benefits of limited government, more freedom, more personal responsibility, etc. and leaves out all the pseudo-scientific nonsense that tries to pass bronze-age myths off as legitimate scientific theories, then – and only then – will a documentary help Republicans start to win more elections. Stein did far more harm to Republicans by preaching to "Creationists" than he or "Creationists" realize. Only "Creationists" went to see that movie. Rational moderate voters who saw any advertisements or news stories about it kept that in the back of their minds at the voting booth. We all know the result.

And should such a documentary ever really be made, once those future Republicans get in office, they need to publicly ignore every "Creationist" and "Intelligent Design" advocate that tries to get them to pass legislation in order to force their religion disguised as science down the throats of other people's children in government schools.

Check out Indoctrinate U.

[Link: indoctrinate-u.com...]

194 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:25pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Shake... shake... shake... press... press... pppsssttt... pppsssttt... pppsssttt...

Stretch-off (as seens on TV) formely Edgar-off.

(I'm waiting for a troll to sign up on LFG with a name like "piss")

Alas that I have but one up-ding to give...

195 EmmmieG  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:33pm

Oh dear. Typo. Bit of trouble. Not big of trouble. Too much chocolate in the system.

196 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:37pm

re: #184 Buster Bunny

WTF does the Restaurant at The End of The Universe have to do with serious theology? I mean .. take a look at a timeline of ANYTHING .. it seems to peter along for an extended period and then there is a Whammy which throws the whole event / society into chaos or deletion. Is it a G-d inspired hand? who knows? but it seems to be consistant throughout history. Sure there could be sociological influences, but .. a LOT of them seem inspired.

Ah, look cuddles, I was making a little joke. And unless you are being just as snarky, then I would recommend that you up your meds a bit.

197 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:41pm

re: #168 razorbacker

One hundred percent of aborted women do not, themselves, go on to have an abortion. Taranto at WSJ calls it the "Roe Effect". It would predict that Conservatives are more likely to bear a child (as opposed to abort it), and thus that Conservatism would be somewhat self-reinforcing as those children, when raised by conservatives, themselves turned out to bear their children in turn.

It's a plausible, if somewhat over simplistic, line of reasoning.

198 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:37:45pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

Where are there any advocates of eugenics? None, openly. But eugenics of a sort is implicit in our laws against incest. When a very closely related couple (parent/child, brother/sister, or, not quite as extreme, cousin/cousine), have a child, chances are much higher than normal that that child will be burdened with some major genetic defect that will ruin or stunt its life. This is why we have laws against incest. It's also why most people have no interest in such an arrangement. It's a built in feature of human nature that most of us find it repellent.

Those who didn't, tended to breed themselves out of the gene pool.

A mindset favorable to eugenics was implicit in the furious disgust of the left with Sarah Palin. What had she done? Carried a Down syndrome baby to term.

Eugenics was perverted, and inverted, by Hitler. His hatred of Jews was hardly founded in their inability to get through school and learn a trade. Hitler and the Nazis were just out to kill off everybody different from them, and it was convenient to that project to paste the label of "inferior" on all those who were different.

Apart from those who had hopelessly bad luck in the lottery of life and got stuck with bona-fide drastic genetic defects that make them mentally incapable of any sort of independent living, we don't deny anyone the right to have children.

Today's society either just shudders with horror at the whole enterprise of "eugenics" as a proxy for getting rid of so-called inferior peoples, or it takes a more analytical view and arrives at the same conclusion. Every extant race and people is a race of survivors. We are the ones who didn't get voted off the island. We all have some sort of genetic superiority. One in one realm, another in another, perhaps; there is no denying that some people resist sunburn better than others, while others acclimate to high altitude better than still others. But here we are, and nature is still whittling away at all of us. Some live, others die, and it's not always just blind chance. The faster draw wins, the meek (prudent) guy avoids the gunfight altogether, and either way, the wild west becomes the home of the survivor and the burial ground of the loser.

It's not the job of government to embark upon a program of mass murder and call it eugenics. Nature will take care of that.

199 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:38:01pm

re: #177 Steve Rogers

When an articulate, well-respected, media-savvy conservative, libertarian, conservative-libertarian, etc. makes a real and entertaining documentary about the benefits of limited government, more freedom, more personal responsibility, etc. and leaves out all the pseudo-scientific nonsense that tries to pass bronze-age myths off as legitimate scientific theories, then – and only then – will a documentary help Republicans start to win more elections.

All you need to do is sit there and read quotes from Thomas Jefferson.

200 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:38:42pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

Ah, look cuddles, I was making a little joke. And unless you are being just as snarky, then I would recommend that you up your meds a bit.

42

Nuff said.

Now go off and look for the question.

201 Piecemaker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:38:43pm

I've never ventured into the comments on an ID thread before.

Interesting stuff.

So, I'm mildly curious to see if there are any "creationists" who are willing to entertain the concept of Darwin's theories as how God built the world?

Personally, and FTR, I am a Christian, I have always giggled at the rigid creationists, but not as much as those who insist that only Darwin's concepts are right.

202 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:39:21pm

re: #159 jaunte

Ebert doesn't sound especially friendly to Michael Moore in this review: "Smug and disengenuous..."

[Link: rogerebert.suntimes.com...]

jaunte: thank you for that link. Roger Ebert's views re: Moore seem to have evolved (I guess he didn't like Sicko). But - what are Ebert's current views re: Fahrenheit 9/11? As far as I can tell, Ebert still believes that F9/11 was what Bush's first administration, 2001-2004, deserves. I don't see where Ebert retracted that opinion.

I've never seen Expelled. I don't want to see it. I'm not a creationist (and have a paper trail on this site to prove it). But given Ebert's treatment of F9/11, I have to suspect Ebert's treatment of any other movie which touch up against his prejudices.

203 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:39:30pm

re: #185 Joan

Anybody want to write a book about scientism and the political abuse of science? Or, steer me to a good title, so I can stop obsessing.


Any book attacking The Church of Climate Change could be considered a book about pseudo-scientism.

204 pat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:39:35pm

Eugenics was, of course, initially a 'leftist', socialist invention. adopted by racists of all colors, ethnicity, and political persuasion. The great genocides of the 20th Century have been promulgated by atheists in the Western World , China, and Cambodia. But the Japanese were no slouches here as were not the Muslims from the beginning. Ebert's generalization about eugenics is simply wrong. As wrong as Stein's conclusion.

205 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:39:40pm

re: #174 jorline

Annefrance was a more unifying troll. Still, I only remember her in the abstract. I can't really recall what it was that she posted, just that it was long and, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid.

206 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:40:10pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton
"Logic, the man's talking logic!"
"We're talking about universal Armeggedon. You green blooded, inhuman..."

207 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:40:22pm

re: #150 Salamantis

Thanks for the clarification; I thought the juxtaposition in your original post seemed odd.

208 Clemente  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #176 HelloDare

Ebert displays SCS* every few years.

/*Stopped-Clock Syndrome

209 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:40:35pm

re: #192 bitterclinger_in_PA

"It is not difficult for me to describe how you made me feel by exploiting the deaths of millions of Jews in support of your argument for a peripheral Christian belief. It fills me with contempt."

It is not a peripheral Christian belief to believe God made man, earth, stars and sun. It is the truth. I feel sorry for all the people who have heard the truth and turn their back on God and His Word. Evolution is the secular liberal excuse to take God out of everything.

And a hoary old Disco Dewde Wedge strategy talking point once again re-emerges: try to divert the discussion from empirical science vs. religious dogma to atheists vs. God.

210 gman  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:40:40pm

re: #176 HelloDare

Here is the last paragraph of Ebert review of "Fahrenheit 9/11"

"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and inauthentic in manner. If the film is not quite as electrifying as Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," that may be because Moore has toned down his usual exuberance and was sobered by attacks on the factual accuracy of elements of "Columbine"; playing with larger stakes, he is more cautious here, and we get an op-ed piece, not a stand-up routine. But he remains one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape, a populist rabble-rouser, humorous and effective; the outrage and incredulity in his film are an exhilarating response to Bush's determined repetition of the same stubborn sound bites.

Bringing up an old movie review to reveal that Ebert is "Left" doesn't make anything that he said in the "Expelled" review untrue. You're going to have to attack his "Expelled" review with specific examples.

211 gmsc  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:40:55pm

So, Ben Stein, when you were researching this movie, how much of Ernst Haeckel's, William Sumner's and/or Vladmir Ulyanov's work did you read?

Surely, anyone who wants to be taken seriously on the matter of Darwin's discoveries applied to philosophy would have done at least that much.

212 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:41:07pm

re: #197 Iron Fist

One hundred percent of aborted women do not, themselves, go on to have an abortion. Taranto at WSJ calls it the "Roe Effect". It would predict that Conservatives are more likely to bear a child (as opposed to abort it), and thus that Conservatism would be somewhat self-reinforcing as those children, when raised by conservatives, themselves turned out to bear their children in turn.

It's a plausible, if somewhat over simplistic, line of reasoning.

Additionally conservatives are more likely to have children, and have more of them.

213 hurricane567  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:41:14pm

I find myself agreeing with Ben on many points....this, however, is not one of them. So sad.

214 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:41:22pm

No science is immune to the infection of politics and the corruption of power.
- Jacob Bronowski

From Wikipedia -Jacob Bronowski (18 January 1908 – 22 August 1974) was a British mathematician and biologist of Polish-Jewish origin. He is best remembered as the presenter and writer of the 1973 BBC television documentary series, The Ascent of Man.

Anyone hear of this guy or the series?

215 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:41:31pm

re: #201 Piecemaker

I've never ventured into the comments on an ID thread before.

Interesting stuff.

So, I'm mildly curious to see if there are any "creationists" who are willing to entertain the concept of Darwin's theories as how God built the world?

Personally, and FTR, I am a Christian, I have always giggled at the rigid creationists, but not as much as those who insist that only Darwin's concepts are right.

Darwin's theories on how God built the world are probably close to yours. He was a Christian you know.

216 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:41:44pm

re: #206 pingjockey

"Logic, the man's talking logic!"
"We're talking about universal Armeggedon. You green blooded, inhuman..."

Thanks, Bones. Get back to sick bay.

217 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:41:56pm

re: #197 Iron Fist

That assumes the parents pass on their value system to their children. Which is kind of iffy.

218 Shug  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:42:03pm

but Annefrace was a good soul
/

219 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:42:06pm

re: #166 MandyManners

*WHACK*

(182) scary, looks like noam likes it! Do we have to have an evolution discussion about THIS?
/

220 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:42:35pm

re: #204 pat

Eugenics was, of course, initially a 'leftist', socialist invention. adopted by racists of all colors, ethnicity, and political persuasion. The great genocides of the 20th Century have been promulgated by atheists in the Western World , China, and Cambodia. But the Japanese were no slouches here as were not the Muslims from the beginning. Ebert's generalization about eugenics is simply wrong. As wrong as Stein's conclusion.

Ah, left, right, progressive, conservative, all rally had different meaning a hundred years ago...

"The modern field and term were first formulated by Sir Francis Galton in 1883,[3] drawing on the recent work of his cousin Charles Darwin. From its inception eugenics was supported by prominent people, including H. G. Wells, Woodrow Wilson, Theodore Roosevelt, Emile Zola, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes, William Keith Kellogg, Margaret Sanger, Winston Churchill, and Sidney Webb.[4][5][6] G. K. Chesterton was an early critic of the philosophy of eugenics, expressing this opinion in his book, Eugenics and Other Evils. Eugenics became an academic discipline at many colleges and universities, and received funding from many sources"

221 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:42:43pm

re: #213 hurricane567

I find myself agreeing with Ben on many points....this, however, is not one of them. So sad.

Its a common way of brainwashing a person .. you tell them three truths and sell them one lie. After the last three being truths .. the fourth MUST be true.

I thank my advanced course in business sales for teaching me that one :)

222 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:43:10pm

re: #217 mich-again

That assumes the parents pass on their value system to their children. Which is kind of iffy.

Yeah, but if you have no children you're certain not to pass on the value system.

223 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:43:14pm

re: #207 reine.de.tout

Thanks for the clarification; I thought the juxtaposition in your original post seemed odd.

Juxtaposition - "I went to the employment office, and they gave me juxtaposition I was looking for!"

224 bitterclinger_in_PA  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:43:30pm

re: #209 Salamantis

And a hoary old Disco Dewde Wedge strategy talking point once again re-emerges: try to divert the discussion from empirical science vs. religious dogma to atheists vs. God.

Kind of hits home there salamander

225 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:43:39pm

Okay, I think we can all agree that Ben Stein has way too much money and has gone off the deep end.

Economically too, although he means well.

That said, compare the box office for Expelleed $7,598,071 with Bill Maher's atheist film, Religulous $12,889,735 .

/they're both bombs that no one saw, but one's twice the bomb, what does that tell you?

226 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:43:43pm

re: #154 swamprat

How many Pygmies?
How did they manage to debone all those poor souls?
Who paid the shipping costs for all those skeletons?
Where are they now? There should be stacks of them, somewhere.

The story is bogus. A fake.

Here you go:

One of the most fascinating historical accounts about the fallout of biological evolution theory on human relations is the story of Ota Benga, a pygmy who was put on display in an American zoo as an example of an evolutionarily inferior race. The incident clearly reveals the racism of evolutionary theory and the extent that the theory gripped the hearts and minds of scientists and journalists in the late 1800s. As humans move away from this time in history, we can more objectively look back at the horrors that evolutionary theory has brought to society of which this story is a poignant example.

and your link:

[Link: www.rae.org...]

227 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:44:22pm

re: #201 Piecemaker

I've never ventured into the comments on an ID thread before.

Interesting stuff.

So, I'm mildly curious to see if there are any "creationists" who are willing to entertain the concept of Darwin's theories as how God built the world?

Personally, and FTR, I am a Christian, I have always giggled at the rigid creationists, but not as much as those who insist that only Darwin's concepts are right.

No, the Roman Catholic monk Gregor Mendel's concepts were right, too.

228 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:44:46pm

One of these days I'll head off to work and my job just wont be there anymore. It will have either evolved to a higher level or been rendered extinct. At which point I will take my retirement funds and migrate south to do some mating over the border.

229 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:44:48pm

re: #212 JCM

Yeah. Over time the Left may wind up culling themselves out of the herd. "Teach your children well" ceases to matter when you don't have them. Of course, the Left have made great headway in monopolizing primary education, so they get to teach your children what they want them to believe, at least if you use the Socialized school system.

230 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:44:58pm

re: #202 Zimriel

Based on the review that HelloDare linked, Ebert has his share of BDS.
Still, I agree with him that Moore is a populist rabble-rouser. I think he gives him too much of a pass for lying by calling it "exuberance."

In any case, he is deadly accurate in his criticism of Expelled.

231 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:45:06pm

re: #226 stretch

Link don't work Einstein.

232 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:45:06pm

re: #223 Wyatt Earp

Juxtaposition - "I went to the employment office, and they gave me juxtaposition I was looking for!"

And our word of the day is...

233 EmmmieG  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:45:35pm

re: #217 mich-again

So what are you doing to teach your children your values?

My daughter had to memorize the Declaration of Independence.

I challenged a bunch of boys in our homeschool group to read the correspondence of Jefferson and Adams before they are 16.

Conservative values don't happen on their own.

234 Clemente  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:45:46pm

re: #214 DistantThunder

No science is immune to the infection of politics and the corruption of power.
- Jacob Bronowski

Anyone hear of this guy or the series?

I own the book, read it cover to cover and back in my teens, but haven't read from it in many years. Maybe time to dust it off.

235 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:46:11pm

re: #232 gclaghorn

And our word of the day is...

Dumb joke my Uncle Ray always gets me laughing with.

236 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:46:16pm

re: #175 Salamantis

Don't worry...I eventually get around to replying to all the posts I wanna reply to anyway...

/yeah, that's a bit creepy, after everyone's gone, hours or days later

237 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:46:45pm

re: #210 gman

Bringing up an old movie review to reveal that Ebert is "Left" doesn't make anything that he said in the "Expelled" review untrue. You're going to have to attack his "Expelled" review with specific examples.

Yeah...ad hominem is a 2500 year old greek logical fallacy, and nothing deduced in the interim has rendered it any more legitimate.

238 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:47:00pm

re: #214 DistantThunder

No science is immune to the infection of politics and the corruption of power.
- Jacob Bronowski

From Wikipedia -Jacob Bronowski (18 January 1908 – 22 August 1974) was a British mathematician and biologist of Polish-Jewish origin. He is best remembered as the presenter and writer of the 1973 BBC television documentary series, The Ascent of Man.

Anyone hear of this guy or the series?

Yes, and I've read some of his books

239 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:47:02pm

re: #235 Wyatt Earp

Dumb joke my Uncle Ray always gets me laughing with.

I challenge all wizards to use the word "indubitably" in context before the end of the thread.

240 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:47:14pm

And by the way folks, I just looked over the site that Stretch tried to link to...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

FULL of the typical pseudo-science and phony research.

241 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:47:17pm

re: #239 gclaghorn

I challenge all wizards to use the word "indubitably" in context before the end of the thread.

Wizards? Whatever. I meant lizards.

242 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:47:34pm

re: #161 MandyManners

Thanks!

My home-town STILL has a statue of Forrest. Unfuckingbelievable.

If you mean Memphis, the statue is likely still there because that's where Forrest and his wife are buried.

243 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:11pm

re: #181 Walter L. Newton

He really does refuse to provide links to his grade-school level pronouncements, doesn't he?

Can you say Edgar?

GMTA Walter

244 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:22pm

re: #211 gmsc

So, Ben Stein, when you were researching this movie, how much of Ernst Haeckel's, William Sumner's and/or Vladmir Ulyanov's work did you read?

Surely, anyone who wants to be taken seriously on the matter of Darwin's discoveries applied to philosophy would have done at least that much.

Haeckel lived more than a hundred years ago, and it was evolutionary scientists - embryologists - who exposed his duplicity.

245 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:23pm

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

Link don't work Einstein.


trying again...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

the hote from the site said "website addresses are automatically converted to hyperlinks." dunno

246 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:31pm

re: #230 jaunte

The most Leftist person I've ever known thought that F9/11 was pure bullshit. And we're talking about someone who did move to the East Block at the height of the Cold War.

247 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:35pm

re: #229 Iron Fist

Yeah. Over time the Left may wind up culling themselves out of the herd. "Teach your children well" ceases to matter when you don't have them. Of course, the Left have made great headway in monopolizing primary education, so they get to teach your children what they want them to believe, at least if you use the Socialized school system.

That's the SPAMMer theory of values transmission. You don't transmit your values to every student, but since they all have to listen you're bound to get some of them. Then they tell a friend, and they tell a friend, and before you know it, something really stupid happens.

248 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:53pm

re: #226 stretch

Here you go:

One of the most fascinating historical accounts about the fallout of biological evolution theory on human relations is the story of Ota Benga, a pygmy who was put on display in an American zoo as an example of an evolutionarily inferior race. The incident clearly reveals the racism of evolutionary theory and the extent that the theory gripped the hearts and minds of scientists and journalists in the late 1800s. As humans move away from this time in history, we can more objectively look back at the horrors that evolutionary theory has brought to society of which this story is a poignant example.

and your link:

[Link: www.rae.org...]

It didn't take long to look over that link of yours, Einstein. It's broken. Try again.

249 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:48:58pm

re: #241 gclaghorn

Wizards? Whatever. I meant lizards.

I can only do it by quoting, "Lolly, Lolly, Lolly, Get Your Adverbs Here."

250 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:49:03pm

re: #229 Iron Fist

Yeah. Over time the Left may wind up culling themselves out of the herd. "Teach your children well" ceases to matter when you don't have them. Of course, the Left have made great headway in monopolizing primary education, so they get to teach your children what they want them to believe, at least if you use the Socialized school system.

Aye, there in lies rub.

Recapturing eduction is critical. And pushing creationism as science doesn't help in the least bit.

251 EmmmieG  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:49:19pm

Indubitably, the dinosaurs would have stuck around if they had known we were going to invent chocolate chip cookies.

252 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:49:22pm

I can say that after 25 years of marriage I have brought Mr DT from a near-neanderthal being to a more highly evolved and enlightened life form - who still occasionally devolves into rudimentary survival behaviors.

253 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:49:23pm
254 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:49:47pm

re: #210 gman

Bringing up an old movie review to reveal that Ebert is "Left" doesn't make anything that he said in the "Expelled" review untrue. You're going to have to attack his "Expelled" review with specific examples.

I am not defending "Expelled". I think the movie is crap. I was going after Ebert. I wish he had used the same critical eye when reviewing Moore's film. See my comment #143.

255 hazzyday  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:50:02pm

re: #178 Thanos

Stretch sounds trollish to me. Like he is projecting his inner racist that consumes his identity and wants to project that out onto a group of people. S**t colored glasses.

256 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:50:06pm

re: #226 stretch

It does no such thing. It exhibits the racism of the time, the same racism that existed before Darwin's book was written, or have you forgotten slavery?

257 Clemente  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:50:36pm

re: #226 stretch

and your link:

[Link: www.rae.org...]

Oh, most impressive!

AHH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH (breathe) HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH ... hah ... heh...
.
.
.
.
AHH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH....

258 BlueCanuck  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:50:38pm

re: #226 stretch

Okay that was history, now do some research on "Downs Syndrome". The whole concept that the person it is named after is racist in belief and philosophy. What our ancestors used in history can be shameful. but if we use it the same way today it's shameful to us. A large majority of evolutionists do not use the theory to promote a racial agenda. IN fact most have used it to show how alike the race of man is.

259 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:50:55pm

re: #246 Iron Fist

Yeah, I find it hard to believe Moore has been successful.
Idiocracy marches on.

260 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:51:00pm

re: #251 EmmmieG

Indubitably, the dinosaurs would have stuck around if they had known we were going to invent chocolate chip cookies.

Do you think you could seriously compete with dinosaurs for the ones with the most choc-chips on top? I think you'd be wiped out simply because the dinosaurs would all end up on choc-insulin highs and just munch the nearest mammal !

Choc chip cookies needed humans to survive.

261 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:51:13pm

re: #249 Wyatt Earp

I can only do it by quoting, "Lolly, Lolly, Lolly, Get Your Adverbs Here."

It is indubitably true that the song "Lolly, Lolly, Lolly, Get Your Adverbs Here" is an appropriate response to my slip.

There. I've used the word tonight. Beat that, lizards.

262 Pietr  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:51:29pm

Seems to me that a lot of the comments RE eugenics are confusing it with genocide, which is what Hitler and many others since, have practiced. They are't mutually exclusive, nor co-joined. I don't think Liberal/Conservative have changed definitions; I'm convinced that DemocRAT and Republican have. How much of that is MSM propaganda becoming accepted truth...only God could calculate. Just a newbie, saying "Hi. Yall".

263 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:51:30pm

i... can't....get....this...to...work

[Link: www.rae.org...]

264 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:51:47pm

The most disturbing hypocrisy I find in Ebert's love-note to Moore: "a populist rabble-rouser" is "one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape".

265 swamprat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:51:52pm

re: #226 stretch

Here you go:

One of the most fascinating historical accounts about the fallout of biological evolution theory on human relations is the story of Ota Benga, a pygmy who was put on display in an American zoo as an example of an evolutionarily inferior race. The incident clearly reveals the racism of evolutionary theory and the extent that the theory gripped the hearts and minds of scientists and journalists in the late 1800s. As humans move away from this time in history, we can more objectively look back at the horrors that evolutionary theory has brought to society of which this story is a poignant example.

and your link:

[Link: www.rae.org...]

Is not what you said it was;

One of the more interesting incidences in the history of evolution and racism is the story of the man who was put on display in a zoo (Brix, 1992). Brought from the Belgian Congo in 1904 by noted African explorer Samuel Verner, he was soon "presented by Verner to the Bronx Zoo director, William Hornaday" (Sifakis, 1984, p. 253). The man, a pygmy named Ota Benga (or "Bi" which means "friend" in Benga's language), was born in 1881 in Africa. When put in the zoo, he was about 23 years old, four feet-eleven inches tall, and weighed a mere 103 pounds. Often referred to as a boy, he was actually a twice married father-his first wife murdered by the white colonists, and his second spouse died from a poisonous snake bite (Bridges, 1974).

266 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:52:00pm

re: #233 EmmmieG

Oh my 3 are fine young Americans. Rock, paper, and scissors.

267 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:52:20pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

And by the way folks, I just looked over the site that Stretch tried to link to...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

FULL of the typical pseudo-science and phony research.

They also link to conservapedia, which tells you all you need know about their credibility.

268 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:52:24pm

G'night, Lizards.

269 hazzyday  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:52:50pm

re: #192 bitterclinger_in_PA

You're missing the point of everything. You repeat an illiterate argument that has been made over and over here. You refuse to acknowledge that God created the universe and that evolution exists. Sin less, have more faith.

270 gmsc  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:52:55pm

re: #257 Clemente

Oh, most impressive!

AHH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH (breathe) HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH ... hah ... heh...
.
.
.
.
AHH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH....

The link says "rae.org". Maybe it's a Raelian homepage, and has gone home?

271 Spiny Norman  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:10pm

re: #253 buzzsawmonkey

They should plant a number of saplings around it.

Then, you couldn't see the Forrest for the trees.

Is that another pun thread coming?

272 Last Mohican  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:20pm

Charles, thank you very much for posting this.

Until recently, I had been tentatively planning to watch Expelled at some point. Ben Stein is a smart guy, I figured. I'll see what he has to say.

The more I've gleaned about the movie, the less I've felt like seeing it. And now, as of tonight, I've officially demoted Mr. Stein from Witty Intellectual down to Offensive Piece of Shit. He can go straight to hell, without passing go, and without collecting my admission fee.

273 Steve Rogers  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:22pm
All you need to do is sit there and read quotes from Thomas Jefferson.


If only we could clone good ole' Tom. He'd talk some sense into today's politicians and voters!

Of course, the same people who deny evolution are also the same ones who oppose cloning. I'll bet Jefferson would be all for cloning! He was probably are last scientifically-literate President. Sad that there haven't been more since him.

274 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:25pm

re: #258 BlueCanuck

Okay that was history, now do some research on "Downs Syndrome". The whole concept that the person it is named after is racist in belief and philosophy. What our ancestors used in history can be shameful. but if we use it the same way today it's shameful to us. A large majority of evolutionists do not use the theory to promote a racial agenda. IN fact most have used it to show how alike the race of man is.

Just read an article today that they are having success with eliminating some of the conditions associated with Down Syndrome in rats. Imagine curing Down's Syndrome - wow.

275 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:30pm

re: #263 stretch

i... can't....get....this...to...work

[Link: www.rae.org...]

You don't say! How did you deduce that, Holmes?

276 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:36pm

re: #271 Spiny Norman

I'm on pines and needles.

277 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:40pm

re: #236 Killian Bundy

/yeah, that's a bit creepy, after everyone's gone, hours or days later

As quick as I can manage...poeple post a LOT here, quickly.

278 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:53:44pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

And by the way folks, I just looked over the site that Stretch tried to link to...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

FULL of the typical pseudo-science and phony research.

Geez Walter, it's Revolution Against Evolution. Revolution is always risky business.

279 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:54:16pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

And by the way folks, I just looked over the site that Stretch tried to link to...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

FULL of the typical pseudo-science and phony research.


what part was fake -that Ota Benga was not a real 'person', or that he never was in a zoo? please explain...

280 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:54:21pm
281 Racer X  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:54:29pm
282 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:54:39pm

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

Ota Benga
It is truly a morally reprehensible story but it's irrelevant to the evidence supporting evolution.

283 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:54:42pm

re: #245 stretch

trying again...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

the hote from the site said "website addresses are automatically converted to hyperlinks." dunno

Don't matter anyway stretch... the link is to an ill supported thus busted site that doesn't help support your POV, even if it did, your POV is off base.

re: #263 stretch

i... can't....get....this...to...work

[Link: www.rae.org...]

.GIVE UP

284 Alouette  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:55:32pm

re: #222 razorbacker

Yeah, but if you have no children you're certain not to pass on the value system.

That's why leftists have taken over the education system--in order to indoctrinate other people's children.

285 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:55:46pm

re: #247 razorbacker

I think that there is a little more than just that going on. It is hard to think of a more captive audience than the one educators have, especially in the early years. Everything that the teacher says is true because the teacher said it.

That still exists to a degree in higher education (you have to regurgitate what the teacher wants to hear to get a good grade), but people have learned some degree of independant thought by the time they are in college.

286 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:55:54pm

re: #237 Salamantis

Yeah...ad hominem is a 2500 year old greek logical fallacy, and nothing deduced in the interim has rendered it any more legitimate.

I'm not engaging in ad hominem, at least not as a technique to support Expelled. HelloDare's comment #254 puts it pretty well.

I'm not pro-creationist; I'm anti-lying-down-with-dogs.

287 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:56:07pm

re: #282 Killgore Trout
My thought exactly. What does some poor guy locked up in a zoo have to do with creationism and Darwin?

288 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:56:26pm

Oh, Good Lord. "Baba" Walters has just named Barack Obama "The. Most. Fascinating. Person. Of. The Year."

289 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:56:33pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

And by the way folks, I just looked over the site that Stretch tried to link to...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

FULL of the typical pseudo-science and phony research.

Here's a site for him. It shows that Darwin was much less racist than most of his scientific contemporaries, particularly Christian biologists such as Louis Agassiz, who penned this tender note to his mother:

"It was in Philadelphia that I first found myself in prolonged contact with Negroes; all the domestics in my hotel were men of color. I can scarcely express to you the painful impression that I received, especially since the feeling that they inspired in me is contrary to all our ideas about the confraternity of the human type (genre) and the unique origin of our species. But truth before all. Nevertheless, I experienced pity at the sight of this degraded and degenerate race, and their lot inspired compassion in me in thinking that they were really men. Nonetheless, it is impossible for me to repress the feeling that they are not of the same blood as us. In seeing their black faces with their thick lips and grimacing teeth, the wool on their head, their bent knees, their elongated hands, I could not take my eyes off their face in order to tell them to stay far away. And when they advanced that hideous hand towards my plate in order to serve me, I wished I were able to depart in order to eat a piece of bread elsewhere, rather than dine with such service. What unhappiness for the white race --to have tied their existence so closely with that of Negroes in certain countries! God preserve us from such a contact." -- Louis Agassiz in a letter to his mother (1846), quoted in Gould, Stephen The Mismeasure of Man (1981) p. 44-45

[Link: home.att.net...]

290 jaunte  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:00pm

Eugenics and racism are not part of evolutionary theory.

291 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:10pm

re: #289 Salamantis

Here's a site for him. It shows that Darwin was much less racist than most of his scientific contemporaries, particularly Christian biologists such as Louis Agassiz, who penned this tender note to his mother:

"It was in Philadelphia that I first found myself in prolonged contact with Negroes; all the domestics in my hotel were men of color. I can scarcely express to you the painful impression that I received, especially since the feeling that they inspired in me is contrary to all our ideas about the confraternity of the human type (genre) and the unique origin of our species. But truth before all. Nevertheless, I experienced pity at the sight of this degraded and degenerate race, and their lot inspired compassion in me in thinking that they were really men. Nonetheless, it is impossible for me to repress the feeling that they are not of the same blood as us. In seeing their black faces with their thick lips and grimacing teeth, the wool on their head, their bent knees, their elongated hands, I could not take my eyes off their face in order to tell them to stay far away. And when they advanced that hideous hand towards my plate in order to serve me, I wished I were able to depart in order to eat a piece of bread elsewhere, rather than dine with such service. What unhappiness for the white race --to have tied their existence so closely with that of Negroes in certain countries! God preserve us from such a contact." -- Louis Agassiz in a letter to his mother (1846), quoted in Gould, Stephen The Mismeasure of Man (1981) p. 44-45

[Link: home.att.net...]

Updinged, and not just because you got your link to work the first time.

292 Spiny Norman  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:25pm

re: #287 pingjockey

My thought exactly. What does some poor guy locked up in a zoo have to do with creationism and Darwin?

The same (derailed) train of thought that links Darwin and the Holocaust.

293 J.S.  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:27pm

Where Ben Stein goes off the rails is with Stein's placing blame on Darwin. Darwin and evolutionary theory are not the "problem" (which Stein alleges). The problem is with identifiable pseudo-scientists who took aspects of Darwin's theory (many of whom were motivated by politics) and perverted the theory beyond all recognition. The result was "Social Darwinism" (with its concomitant support for eugenics.) In North America (Canada and the United States) the shrillest advocates were (back in the nineteen twenties) "progressives". (However, the eugenics movement in Continental Europe was not being promulgated by "progressives", but by the ultra nationalistic right-wing...)

294 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:42pm

re: #288 gclaghorn

Oh, Good Lord. "Baba" Walters has just named Barack Obama "The. Most. Fascinating. Person. Of. The Year."

Sa-prise. Sa-prise. Sa-prise. - Gomer Pyle

295 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:56pm

OT from the previous thread:

My friend whose car was hit by the 18 wheeler says he is OK, but has a twinge in his lower back.

The truck changed lanes into his car catching it right about the driver's door and ended up pushing the car in front of the truck awhile until it could get stopped. The car was drivable....insurance people will decide if it's totaled, but my guess is that the frame is bent.

He's lucky—I've seen other truck/auto wrecks that were infinitely worse.

296 CrackrJak  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:57:58pm

re: #29 Sabba Hillel

I have to agree, Arguing Creationism/ID or Evolution is like spinning your wheels in the muck.

However, Stein made some very relevant points about social darwinism aka, eugenics. The belief that humans can force mankind to evolve into a greater being by eradicating those deemed less worthy genetically.

Only now those deemed "unevolved" are those who have a belief in God. After all, How can anyone that believes in "imaginary friends" be of sound mind ? This is at the heart of modern liberalism and they chant slogans at protests revealing this. Planned parenthood is the spearhead of this new liberal eugenics.

After they rid the world of any belief in God, They can mold "Morality" however they wish.

297 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:58:05pm

re: #290 jaunte

Eugenics and racism are not part of evolutionary theory.

Word up.

298 EmmmieG  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:58:21pm

re: #284 Alouette

Yup, and that's why my children are not in the educational system.

299 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:58:36pm

re: #245 stretch

trying again...

[Link: www.rae.org...]

the hote from the site said "website addresses are automatically converted to hyperlinks." dunno

Ok folks. Now I know where Stretch is coming from. Here we have an example of "showmanship" that was not uncommon in it's time and era. P.T. Barnum showed and displayed human oddities for many years, well accepted by the public, with all kinds of pseudo-scientific explanations behind the exhibits displayed.

And this incident with the pygmy Ota Benga is a prime example of this sort of showmanship.

I'm not condoning this in any sort of way, but this IS NOT SCIENCE, THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT.

Take it from someone (me) who knows the only man left in the United States who is still displaying human oddities as entertainment.

Take it from someone (me) when I tell you, as distasteful as this WAS, it was not unusual, but it was not science.

When Stretch tries to use this as some example of science and evolution, he is confusing "bad taste" with "bad science."

This would be like watching the movie "King Kong" and using that as proof that giant apes roam the earth.

See...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

300 Zuckie  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:58:51pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

tntb -

Which is why we IMPORT others to fill in the gaps, eh?

Z

301 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:58:55pm

re: #282 Killgore Trout

Ota Benga
It is truly a morally reprehensible story but it's irrelevant to the evidence supporting evolution.

Not an isolated story in early exploration.

Give Me My Father's Body: the Life of Minik, the New York Eskimo.

302 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:59:26pm

re: #268 gclaghorn

G'night, Lizards.

Night, G!

303 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:59:30pm

re: #259 jaunte

He has masterd the art of saying what a significant percentage of the populace want to hear. I had to sit through his bullshit in Sociology. I wasn't impressed then, and I'm not impressed now.

But some people want to believe. He is very much like a cult leader in that respect.

304 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:59:39pm

re: #289 Salamantis

Here's a site for him. It shows that Darwin was much less racist than most of his scientific contemporaries, particularly Christian biologists such as Louis Agassiz, who penned this tender note to his mother:

"It was in Philadelphia that I first found myself in prolonged contact with Negroes; all the domestics in my hotel were men of color. I can scarcely express to you the painful impression that I received, especially since the feeling that they inspired in me is contrary to all our ideas about the confraternity of the human type (genre) and the unique origin of our species. But truth before all. Nevertheless, I experienced pity at the sight of this degraded and degenerate race, and their lot inspired compassion in me in thinking that they were really men. Nonetheless, it is impossible for me to repress the feeling that they are not of the same blood as us. In seeing their black faces with their thick lips and grimacing teeth, the wool on their head, their bent knees, their elongated hands, I could not take my eyes off their face in order to tell them to stay far away. And when they advanced that hideous hand towards my plate in order to serve me, I wished I were able to depart in order to eat a piece of bread elsewhere, rather than dine with such service. What unhappiness for the white race --to have tied their existence so closely with that of Negroes in certain countries! God preserve us from such a contact." -- Louis Agassiz in a letter to his mother (1846), quoted in Gould, Stephen The Mismeasure of Man (1981) p. 44-45

[Link: home.att.net...]

Tender as in soft in the brain.

305 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:59:42pm

re: #292 Spiny Norman
D'oh. One of these things is not like the other. You wait, the 2nd Law of Thermodynics is going to make an appearance here sooner or later.

306 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 7:59:55pm

re: #296 CrackrJak

After they rid the world of any belief in God, They can mold "Morality" however they wish.


I know it may be unimaginable to you but those who don't believe in your god are not immoral.

307 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:01:08pm

re: #289 Salamantis

Good find. I can't believe I thought you were a troll. How wrong I was; You have shown yourself to be a hammer to trolls tonight.

308 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #277 Salamantis

As quick as I can manage...poeple post a LOT here, quickly.

Once the thread is dead, it's dead. It becomes the realm of the undead serial dinger squadrons. Do you really think the people who you reply to 12-24 hours later bother to go back to read your reply?

/move along, there'll be more ID threads

309 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:01:42pm

re: #290 jaunte

Eugenics and racism are not part of evolutionary theory.

Indeed, Evolutionary biology refutes the essence of eugenics.
On top of that Eugenics was around well before Darwin wrote his book.

310 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:01:44pm

re: #253 buzzsawmonkey

They should plant a number of saplings around it.

Then, you couldn't see the Forrest for the trees.

Well, it is in a park.
But you can still see the Forrest...

311 guitardalek  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:01:45pm

re: #17 tntb

That's because they were. Eugenics was a "progressive" ideal. The modern outgrowth of it is Planned Parenthood, founded by progressive Margaret Sanger. 1/3 of black babies who are conceived are aborted.

Yeah, that was my thought. While I don't agree with Stein, Ebert could stand to re-examine history himself. He doesn't seem to be aware of the common ancestors shared by progressive liberalism and Nazi fascism...

312 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:01:59pm

re: #295 David IV of Georgia

OT from the previous thread:

My friend whose car was hit by the 18 wheeler says he is OK, but has a twinge in his lower back.

The truck changed lanes into his car catching it right about the driver's door and ended up pushing the car in front of the truck awhile until it could get stopped. The car was drivable....insurance people will decide if it's totaled, but my guess is that the frame is bent.

He's lucky—I've seen other truck/auto wrecks that were infinitely worse.

I had a bad migraine this evening and had to drive to pick up my son and almost had a car accident because my vision was impaired in my left eye just from the pain. I was coming out of a driveway right next to a traffic circle and the car would have hit me broadside if my son had not yelled Stop. And of course, it was a dark and stormy night.

313 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:02:10pm

re: #226 stretch

Brilliant! Back up your creationist talking point with ... a non-working link to a creationist website.

314 Racer X  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:02:21pm

Some people really need to keep their spirituality to themselves.

315 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:02:25pm

re: #279 stretch

what part was fake -that Ota Benga was not a real 'person', or that he never was in a zoo? please explain...

The genocide part, maroon.

316 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:02:25pm

re: #299 Walter L. Newton

Ok folks. Now I know where Stretch is coming from. Here we have an example of "showmanship" that was not uncommon in it's time and era. P.T. Barnum showed and displayed human oddities for many years, well accepted by the public, with all kinds of pseudo-scientific explanations behind the exhibits displayed.

And this incident with the pygmy Ota Benga is a prime example of this sort of showmanship.

I'm not condoning this in any sort of way, but this IS NOT SCIENCE, THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT.

Take it from someone (me) who knows the only man left in the United States who is still displaying human oddities as entertainment.

Take it from someone (me) when I tell you, as distasteful as this WAS, it was not unusual, but it was not science.

When Stretch tries to use this as some example of science and evolution, he is confusing "bad taste" with "bad science."

This would be like watching the movie "King Kong" and using that as proof that giant apes roam the earth.

See...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


showmanship? it was a ZOO, a ZOO! not a circus. give me a break

317 Joan  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:02:49pm

re: #293 J.S.

Thank you--untangling that tangled line is difficult and important.

318 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:03:09pm

re: #310 Dar ul Harb

Well, it is in a park.
But you can still see the Forrest...

Does it have a box of chocolates?

319 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:03:33pm

re: #290 jaunte

Eugenics and racism are not part of evolutionary theory.

Correct.

Dishonest people with an agenda misused parts of Darwin's theory to build Eugenics. There would have used anything to justify their goals, Darwin's work was handy at the time.

Baseball has nothing to do with the murder who used a baseball bat to murder someone. Eugenics similarly takes takes a piece of Darwin's work, and uses it in wholly inappropriate ways.

320 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:03:50pm

re: #316 stretch

showmanship? it was a ZOO, a ZOO! not a circus. give me a break

How is that statement going to help you Stretch? Yep, it's a stretch...

321 Hobbes  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:03:59pm

re: #250 JCM

Aye, there in lies rub.

Recapturing eduction is critical. And pushing creationism as science doesn't help in the least bit.

Help me understand how teaching the religion of man-made global warming is any more dangerous?

322 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:04:32pm

re: #214 DistantThunder

No science is immune to the infection of politics and the corruption of power.
- Jacob Bronowski

From Wikipedia -Jacob Bronowski (18 January 1908 – 22 August 1974) was a British mathematician and biologist of Polish-Jewish origin. He is best remembered as the presenter and writer of the 1973 BBC television documentary series, The Ascent of Man.

Anyone hear of this guy or the series?

I remember seeing most of the episodes of The Ascent of Man on KSPS, the Seattle PBS outlet, back in the day. (It was available on cable where I lived.) It was a very worthy series. Might appear a little dated if we were to view it now.

323 LilyGecko  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:04:35pm

Actually, for me it was not that the teacher said it, but it was that the teacher was correct about everything else. (2+2=4, 'i' before 'e', except after 'c', so forth.)

Although, we never discussed religion or evolutionism. At least, I can't remember anything along that line.
re: #285 Iron Fist

324 gmsc  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:04:43pm

re: #299 Walter L. Newton

Ok folks. Now I know where Stretch is coming from. Here we have an example of "showmanship" that was not uncommon in it's time and era. P.T. Barnum showed and displayed human oddities for many years, well accepted by the public, with all kinds of pseudo-scientific explanations behind the exhibits displayed.

And this incident with the pygmy Ota Benga is a prime example of this sort of showmanship.

I'm not condoning this in any sort of way, but this IS NOT SCIENCE, THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT.

Take it from someone (me) who knows the only man left in the United States who is still displaying human oddities as entertainment.

Take it from someone (me) when I tell you, as distasteful as this WAS, it was not unusual, but it was not science.

When Stretch tries to use this as some example of science and evolution, he is confusing "bad taste" with "bad science."

This would be like watching the movie "King Kong" and using that as proof that giant apes roam the earth.

See...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Perhaps, from this thread, we could show him a valid example of the great egress?
;)

325 BlueCanuck  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:04:56pm

re: #316 stretch

Back then? Same difference. Most zoos were static circuses. They were full of poor science, and even worse philosophy's. Only now are they used to preserve and show animals in almost similar habitats that they lived in.

326 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:04:59pm

re: #313 Charles

Brilliant! Back up your creationist talking point with ... a non-working link to a creationist website.

i select, copy, paste. what's up with that?
[Link: www.rae.org...]

327 Zuckie  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:05:12pm

re: #319 JCM

JCM -

Like "Joe Batters?"

Z

328 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:05:30pm

re: #313 Charles

Brilliant! Back up your creationist talking point with ... a non-working link to a creationist website.

But .. everyone knows that links that dont work are part of creationist theory !

329 swamprat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:05:30pm

re: #226 stretch

Beastly yes, but a far cry from stacks of skeletons. It is good to know that without evolution the Brits would have been devoid of bigotry. (sarc) LGF has atheists and Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Pagans (and others). I am a Christian. When I argue my beliefs, I try to use reliable sources. Sites devoted to proving just one point often are not reliable. Sometimes they are not honest(and that certainly applies to atheist sites). It also applies to lefty, racist, religious, right wing, investment, sports, auto, and mortgage sites.

330 Hobbes  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:05:58pm

re: #321 Hobbes

Help me understand how teaching the religion of man-made global warming is any more dangerous?

Correction: any less dangerous

331 BlueCanuck  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:06:02pm

re: #324 gmsc

Perhaps, from this thread, we could show him a valid example of the great egress?
;)

LOL, I love the egress. Sometimes I look for it out of desperation.

332 ebed_melech  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:06:04pm

Dawkins on Hitler and eugenics from a source you'll love.
'I wonder whether, some 60 years after Hitler’s death, we might at least venture to ask what the moral difference is between breeding for musical ability and forcing a child to take music lessons. Or why it is acceptable to train fast runners and high jumpers but not to breed them. I can think of some answers, and they are good ones, which would probably end up persuading me.'

[Link: creationontheweb.com...]


Cogent responses welcome.

333 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:06:08pm

re: #316 stretch


Those sort of stories are sadly all to common. See 301. It was an era when neither women nor blacks were allowed to vote. Lynchings were common and racism was rampant. It still has nothing to do with the factual evidence behind evolution.

334 LilyGecko  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:06:13pm

Bye. Gonna go look at some political cartoons.

335 quercus albus  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:06:17pm

re: #23 MandyManners

There goes Mandy! Fact checking asse(t)s and taking names!

How's it going Mandy?

336 arrow75  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:06:47pm

re: #23 MandyManners

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

337 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:07:34pm

re: #326 stretch

i select, copy, paste. what's up with that?
[Link: www.rae.org...]

I think the key phrase here is 'creationist', not the non working part as much. That the website is really not helping you prove your point in a respected, well founded way.

338 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:07:35pm

re: #316 stretch

showmanship? it was a ZOO, a ZOO! not a circus. give me a break

"American businessman Samuel Phillips Verner was sent to Africa in 1904 under contract from the St. Louis World's Fair to bring back pygmies for exhibition. Verner met Ota Benga in the Belgian Congo that year and negotiated with a tribal slave trader for the pygmies, returning to the United States with Ota Benga and eight others."

I say it again, SHOWMANSHIP and PSUEDO-SCIENCE. Stretch, this doesn't prove anything of your point. In that case, I have seen the WOOD OF THE REAL CROSS on display, IN A FUCKING CHURCH.

Science advances, social mores advance, and we learn from our past mistakes. You, my dear person, are stuck in some Victorian rubber-room, and you are being brainwashed by people who lack any critical thinking skills.

Too bad for you.

339 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:07:49pm

re: #321 Hobbes

Help me understand how teaching the religion of man-made global warming is any more dangerous?

AGW is from the left. Creationism comes from the "Christian Right." I am both right wing and Christian.

Both are dangerous, and both need to be fought. Creationism is "friendly fire" which is not only dangerous, it is used broadly to discredit all those on the right who are Christian.

Not only do both need to be fought, but our credibility needs to be retain by distancing ourselves with clarity from teaching creationism as science.

340 CrackrJak  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:08:40pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

I know it may be unimaginable to you but those who don't believe in your god are not immoral.

That is subject to what you base your morality on. Those who believe in God, Including myself, Base their morality on laws given directly from God (Like the 10 commandments).

If your morality isn't based on that, Then you can justify nearly anything "Moral" based on any philosophy or science you want. Then the law can be attacked and changed based on that new morality.

341 quercus albus  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:08:49pm

Whoops. That what happens when you read the thread from the beginning. Chime in about 300 posts after the fact...

Going to read now.

342 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:09:17pm

re: #326 stretch

i select, copy, paste. what's up with that?
[Link: www.rae.org...]

Ota Benga?

/how two centuries ago, am I missing something here?

343 bitterclinger_in_PA  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:09:19pm

re: #269 hazzyday

You're missing the point of everything. You repeat an illiterate argument that has been made over and over here. You refuse to acknowledge that God created the universe and that evolution exists. Sin less, have more faith.

Hazy, there is no proof of evolution which is a hoax. You mix God with your evolution. You have no faith in God which is obvious. You sin when you perpetuate this work of the deceiver.

344 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:09:21pm

re: #324 gmsc

Perhaps, from this thread, we could show him a valid example of the great egress?
;)

Yes, stretch, what do you know about the evolutionary wonders of the egress?

345 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:09:58pm

re: #323 LilyGecko

The earliest I can recall evolution specifically being taught would be 7th grade. I had a Science teacher who believed that it was her "divine" mission to teach 12 year olds that God didn't exist. I wouldn't say that it came up that bluntly in every class, but it was the general theme for the better part of a year.

346 Racer X  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:00pm

re: #333 Killgore Trout

Those sort of stories are sadly all to common. See 301. It was an era when neither women nor blacks were allowed to vote. Lynchings were common and racism was rampant. It still has nothing to do with the factual evidence behind evolution.

Sadly that was not that long ago.

What will society look like in another 100 years? 200 years? We've come a long way but jeez looeez, evolution is painful.

347 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:11pm

I think I got it, now.

Charles? Is "stretch" the ID/evolution version of "Aisha?"

Is he going to say something about homobuttsexuals, now?

348 mich-again  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:38pm

The AKC promotes dog eugenics. Ask any respectable breeder if it will cost extra for a puppy that can carry on the bloodline. I believe they refer to that lucky dog as the pick of the litter.

349 ebed_melech  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:43pm

An interesting selection of older German and other texts taken from the same author.

[Link: creationontheweb.com...]

350 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:49pm

Actually, the circuses with the freaks show ( anyone seen the movie Freaks?) send the message that G-d has created a very wide variety of humanity. I think the people who look like werewolves are most fascinating.

I was watching a new TLC series on a dwarf family - and they are such average people in so many ways - yet "normal" people would assume that it is a horrible way to live - and most wouldn't want to bring child into the world who would have to "endure" that condition. The dwarf mother and dwarf father specifically requested a dwarf baby to adopt, and are raising him along with another brother.

I find great inspiration from the unusual people who have embraced their bodies, know how to be happy, and make positive contributions to the world.

351 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:51pm

re: #296 CrackrJak

I have to agree, Arguing Creationism/ID or Evolution is like spinning your wheels in the muck.

However, Stein made some very relevant points about social darwinism aka, eugenics. The belief that humans can force mankind to evolve into a greater being by eradicating those deemed less worthy genetically.

Only now those deemed "unevolved" are those who have a belief in God. After all, How can anyone that believes in "imaginary friends" be of sound mind ? This is at the heart of modern liberalism and they chant slogans at protests revealing this. Planned parenthood is the spearhead of this new liberal eugenics.

After they rid the world of any belief in God, They can mold "Morality" however they wish.

Social Darwinism and Eugenics are opposites. Read Liberal Fascism for the full scoop.

Also: prove to us that Planned Parenthood is targeting religious believers for extermination.

352 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:10:57pm

re: #182 Noam Sayin'

Had to do some mom-stuff.

353 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:11:01pm

We've got some real hellfire preachers here tonight. You evil Darwinists are doomed to burn! Doomed! Burn, I say!

354 BlueCanuck  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:11:10pm

re: #343 bitterclinger_in_PA

Oh boy, not that tired old chestnut again. No proof of evolution? I guess all those dinosaur fossils, and the Burgess Shale are fakes too?

/bet you call the Burgess Shale the "Bogus Shale"

355 sleepyone  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:11:37pm

Ugh, Roger Ebert. Honestly, who cares what this man thinks about anything.

356 JumpLandPackRepeat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:11:54pm

I'm trying to figure out what movie I saw where a little girl says "I'm afraid it's turtles all the way down." She was either telling a story herself or was quoting someone else. Not for any particular reason, but it's just one of those things that is driving me craaaaazy tonight. I can't remember anything about the movie, but I do know it's a younger girl and I keep thinking she has an accent but I'm not positive on that. I've googled it, looked at Wiki, and several movie quote websites and NOTHING. Arrrrgggghhh!

357 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:12:16pm

re: #296 CrackrJak

I have to agree, Arguing Creationism/ID or Evolution is like spinning your wheels in the muck.

However, Stein made some very relevant points about social darwinism aka, eugenics. The belief that humans can force mankind to evolve into a greater being by eradicating those deemed less worthy genetically.

Only now those deemed "unevolved" are those who have a belief in God. After all, How can anyone that believes in "imaginary friends" be of sound mind ? This is at the heart of modern liberalism and they chant slogans at protests revealing this. Planned parenthood is the spearhead of this new liberal eugenics.

After they rid the world of any belief in God, They can mold "Morality" however they wish.

The roots of eugenics are to be found in Plato. And Plato was no atheist; in fact, he believed in a whole pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.

Farmers were selectively breeding and culling herds millennia before Darwin was born. Eugenics is applying animal husbandry to humans. evolutionary theorists would choose to allow environmental selection to proceed unhindered; it's their antithesis, the eugenicists, who insit upon applying their favored 'intelligent' designs.

358 Alouette  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:12:27pm

re: #353 Charles

We've got some real hellfire preachers here tonight. You evil Darwinists are doomed to burn! Doomed! Burn, I say!

Bitter Clinger in the Palestinian Authority is trying for Annefrance's karma, just not all in one post.

359 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:13:25pm

re: #339 JCM

AGW is from the left. Creationism comes from the "Christian Right." I am both right wing and Christian.

Both are dangerous, and both need to be fought. Creationism is "friendly fire" which is not only dangerous, it is used broadly to discredit all those on the right who are Christian.

Not only do both need to be fought, but our credibility needs to be retain by distancing ourselves with clarity from teaching creationism as science.

I think they are willing to frag the officers.

360 pingjockey  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:13:26pm

re: #353 Charles

"Debils Out!" TV preacher on late night tv in San Diego years ago. Would bop folks on the head and they'd throw away their crutches and be healed.

361 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:13:36pm

re: #348 mich-again

The AKC promotes dog eugenics. Ask any respectable breeder if it will cost extra for a puppy that can carry on the bloodline. I believe they refer to that lucky dog as the pick of the litter.

Same with purebred show cats of which I have experience.

/pretty sure the don't kill the rest of the litter though

362 Racer X  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:13:40pm

re: #353 Charles

We've got some real hellfire preachers here tonight. You evil Darwinists are doomed to burn! Doomed! Burn, I say!

Got it covered.

363 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:13:50pm

Just got back from a Mumbai memorial at our local Chabad. They showed a great video of the work that was done at the Mumbai Chabad. I'll try to find out if it is on the web somewhere. And the revenge Chabad is calling for is to go out and do more and more good deeds. (Living well is the best revenge - someone told me that many years ago.)

364 JCM  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:03pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton

Yes, stretch, what do you know about the evolutionary wonders of the egress?

Right this way
-------------------------------------------->

365 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:22pm

re: #353 Charles

We've got some real hellfire preachers here tonight. You evil Darwinists are doomed to burn! Doomed! Burn, I say!

Charles .. you know if you start a topic with Evo-something vs Creationist something .. you are going to have 300 expletive driven madmen debating the issue within 5 minutes and it will take 4 days for the hubbub to quiet down. After which you will have to re-allocated .47% of disk usage, boot 7% more trolls and gage whether the additional throughput is worth it.

But hey .. its all about the debate !

366 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:24pm

re: #353 Charles

We've got some real hellfire preachers here tonight. You evil Darwinists are doomed to burn! Doomed! Burn, I say!

You need to get a black Quaker hat for your avatar lizard-king Charles...

367 stretch  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:30pm

re: #353 Charles

Jesus loves you Charles, and he died proving it

368 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #351 Zimriel

Social Darwinism and Eugenics are opposites. Read Liberal Fascism for the full scoop.

Also: prove to us that Planned Parenthood is targeting religious believers for extermination.

They seem to be targeting their own political peers - odd - but utilitarian.

369 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:39pm

*SNIFF*

370 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:14:54pm

re: #282 Killgore Trout

Ota Benga
It is truly a morally reprehensible story but it's irrelevant to the evidence supporting evolution.

The 'pygmy' was taller than my neighbor?

I'm going to keep that little factoid to myself, when next I see her.

371 JumpLandPackRepeat  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:03pm

Nevermind....found it!

372 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:07pm

re: #349 ebed_melech

An interesting selection of older German and other texts taken from the same author.

[Link: creationontheweb.com...]

Creation Ministries International. A highly credible source.

/sarcasm overdose

373 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:09pm

re: #332 ebed_melech

Don't believe anything you read on creationist websites. Despite their godly claims to moral superiority they are consistent liars. Notice hos they don't link to the source of the quote? It is out of context......

How Predictable: Richard Dawkins Supports Eugenics

374 Iron Fist  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:11pm

re: #363 Sunlight

I've always thought that revenge was the best revenge. The Law does tend to frown on it, though.

375 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:14pm

re: #308 Killian Bundy

Once the thread is dead, it's dead. It becomes the realm of the undead serial dinger squadrons. Do you really think the people who you reply to 12-24 hours later bother to go back to read your reply?

/move along, there'll be more ID threads

Yep. Usually I'm quick enough so they haven't even left it yet.

376 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:23pm

re: #357 Salamantis

The roots of eugenics are to be found in Plato. And Plato was no atheist; in fact, he believed in a whole pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.

Farmers were selectively breeding and culling herds millennia before Darwin was born. Eugenics is applying animal husbandry to humans. evolutionary theorists would choose to allow environmental selection to proceed unhindered; it's their antithesis, the eugenicists, who insit upon applying their favored 'intelligent' designs.

Yeah, Goldberg points this out. All the great progressives were preaching against "social darwinism" and touting eugenics as the antithesis of this. Progressives weren't "for" evolution; they assumed it, and were "for" countering natural evolution with a breeding programme. Idiocracy is a good example of a eugenicist movie (look what happens when we let these morons keep breeding!).

377 Thanos  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:31pm

re: #340 CrackrJak

Your reply is perfect exhibit as to why I as an atheist so regularly defend religion.

Morals existed before Christianity, (See Aristotle's "Nichomachean Ethics"). For many people however without a belief in God there are no morals. That makes me shudder to think what hell the world would be if all Christians of your stripe suddenly stopped believing in God. People of your stripe would think there were no longer any rules, that all was permitted, and what untold evil would be unleashed?

So I defend religion against the rabid secularists. People like you are just one reason, so please do keep believing, you obviously have to or become a beast.

378 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:37pm

re: #367 stretch

Jesus loves you Charles, and he died proving it

If you break out in KumbA Ya, i'm heaving!

379 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:15:54pm

re: #367 stretch

Jesus loves you Charles, and he died proving it

I'd love to ding you up but, it comes across as hostile.

380 Right mind left  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:16:29pm

Have fun barbecuing troll - I'm off to bed...

381 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:16:37pm

re: #340 CrackrJak

Like I said it is unimaginable to you that I am a moral human being. I can't help you.

382 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:16:51pm

re: #316 stretch

showmanship? it was a ZOO, a ZOO! not a circus. give me a break

Zoos don't get paid to show?

383 ebed_melech  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:17:09pm

re: #357 Salamantis
Which is Richard Dawkins a eugenicist or a theoretician if they are mutually exclusive?

(Personally I think he's both a eugenicist and an eloquent atheist propagandist, given his almost complete lack of recent peer reviewed publications.)

384 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:17:13pm

re: #380 Right mind left

Have fun barbecuing troll - I'm off to bed...

According to my Monster Manual, acid damage works too.

385 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:17:25pm

re: #363 Sunlight
Peace.

386 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:17:26pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

Don't believe anything you read on creationist websites. Despite their godly claims to moral superiority they are consistent liars. Notice hos they don't link to the source of the quote? It is out of context......

How Predictable: Richard Dawkins Supports Eugenics

Note that ebed_melech is a contributor to creationist web sites. He's not just parroting the talking points, he writes them.

387 J.S.  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:17:34pm

re: #226 stretch

Here's a problem for you to consider...Back since the time of the earliest explorers (that's Europeans sailing to North America), the explorers were in the habit of capturing natives and taking them back to Europe (to parade them before the King/Queen, and exhibit them as "savages.") Cartier (the French explorer did this), so did many other explorers...(later, btw, sea captains would kidnap and take back Native Americans, try to convert them to Christianity, then return them/drop them back off to their place of origin)...All of this was done long, long before Darwin. Racism didn't spring forth from Evolutionary Theory...

388 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:01pm

re: #340 CrackrJak

That is subject to what you base your morality on. Those who believe in God, Including myself, Base their morality on laws given directly from God (Like the 10 commandments).

If your morality isn't based on that, Then you can justify nearly anything "Moral" based on any philosophy or science you want. Then the law can be attacked and changed based on that new morality.

You don't think people new it was like, kinda BAD to kill someone before it was written on a rock !?!?!

389 Dianna  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:14pm
Arbitrary forced sterilization in our country has been promoted mostly by racists, who curiously found many times more blacks than whites suitable for such treatment.

Um...Oliver Wendell Holmes? He was a "liberal", more-or-less. Or, at least more of a liberal hero than anything else. And the case where he wrote, "Three generations of idiots is enough" (off the top of my head) involved whites. Poor whites, I grant, but whites.

"Mostly by racists" is a perfectly wonderful obfuscation of who, precisely, advocated sterilization.

However good the article may be, that definitely caught my eye; it's a dangerous - perfectly deadly - skate past the actuality of the subject.

390 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:16pm

re: #364 JCM

Right this way
-------------------------------------------->

I can see why Stretch didn't want to supply a link to the pygmy story until we pressed him for it.

It actually shows that somewhere in the back of his mind, he knows there is something wrong with the information that is being fed to him by the church, people and organizations that are connected to that website.

But he doesn't not have the personal critical thinking skills to form his own opinion, so when pressed, he can only resort to linking to faulty pseudo-science and outright lies.

To bad for him.

391 caspera  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:20pm

I'll give a modest defense of Stein here, not because I agree with him but because Ebert's line of argumentation is bothering me.

He refers to advocates of eugenics as liberal.

Margaret Sanger was a progressive and a founder of Planned Parenthood, an organization which is to this day considered an icon of liberalism. She founded the organazation to promote eugenics.

I would not call Hitler liberal.

Gah. This has to do with the semantic jiu-jitsu performed by the Left. They've muddied up the meanings of words so that it's impossible to have a conversation about this stuff. If "liberal" means "leftist" and "socialist", then technically Hitler was from the philosophical tradition of those who are today known by the appellation "liberal". Hitler's party was a National Socialist party for heaven's sake. (Of course, if "liberal" means "nice" as in the vernacular, then Hitler was not a "liberal". Ebert is exploiting the double meaning of the word, a bit of intellectual legerdemain that ensures that nothing bad can ever be blamed on the left.)

Arbitrary forced sterilization in our country has been promoted mostly by racists, who curiously found many times more blacks than whites suitable for such treatment.

Yeah, racists like progressive icon Margaret Sanger.

... exploiting the deaths of millions of Jews in support of your argument for a peripheral Christian belief

Odd, Ebert, a "Catholic" getting all offended on behalf of Jewry and accusing Ben Stein, a Jew himself, of Christian bigotry.

Of course Naziism was an outgrowth of Darwinian thought. "Survival of the fittest" leads pretty easily to the idea of improving the stock of a species by killing off the "unfit." We today, as we should be, are uncomfortable with this line of thinking, but that's not to say that people didn't think this way. You don't fight dishonesty by being dishonest. Stein is saying "Darwinism spawned a school of thought which in part led to Naziism" which is correct, but then he goes off the rails by suggesting that those who believe that Darwinism accurately describes the state of nature are therefore Nazis. Ebert pulls a fast one by insisting indignantly that progressives never made an approbative connection between Darwinism and eugenics.

It's probably best to say Darwinism is how nature operates, but it doesn't suggest a social morality and leave it at that.

392 Alouette  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:23pm

re: #363 Sunlight

Just got back from a Mumbai memorial at our local Chabad. They showed a great video of the work that was done at the Mumbai Chabad. I'll try to find out if it is on the web somewhere. And the revenge Chabad is calling for is to go out and do more and more good deeds. (Living well is the best revenge - someone told me that many years ago.)

"Love Means Love"

393 hermit  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:27pm

re: #340 CrackrJak

Whose law do you follow?
For your edification:
To “evolve” literally means “to unroll a scroll”, that is, to read a book. The imagery of nature as a book has its roots in Christianity and has been held dear by many scientists. Galileo saw nature as a book whose author is God in the same way that Scripture has God as its author. It is a book whose history, whose evolution, whose “writing” and meaning, we “read” according to the different approaches of the sciences, while all the time presupposing the foundational presence of the author who has wished to reveal himself therein.

394 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #367 stretch

Here's a tune.

395 gmsc  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:44pm

Time for my standard list of favorite ID/Creationist argument links:

reDiscovery Institute (Parody site)

Using creationist/ID arguments against them:
Why We Believe in a Designer!
Organisms that Look Designed
Oolon Colluphid's Guide to Creation

Talk.Origins archive

People involved in spreading Darwin's discoveries as a philosophy, whom Ben Stein mysteriously neglects to mention:
Ernst Haeckel
William Sumner
Vladmir Ulyanov

Is There An Artifical God? (essay by Douglas Adams)

The Day The Universe Changed - "Fit To Rule" (Episode 8):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

396 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:55pm

re: #383 ebed_melech

Personally I think he's both a eugenicist


Uhhh, no. Please don't believe what liars tell you. It isn't true and makes you appear uninformed.

397 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:18:57pm

re: #367 stretch

Jesus loves you Charles, and he died proving it

LINK PLEASE?

398 Charles  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:19:11pm

re: #379 MandyManners

I'd love to ding you up but, it comes across as hostile.

It is hostile, very hostile, masquerading as concern. It's very common for creationists to exhibit this reaction, when their beliefs are challenged.

399 Dianna  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:19:26pm

re: #353 Charles

We've got some real hellfire preachers here tonight. You evil Darwinists are doomed to burn! Doomed! Burn, I say!

I'll burn next to you, though, according to the best discussions I've read of what hell really means, I won't know a thing about it.

400 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:19:40pm

re: #343 bitterclinger_in_PA

Hazy, there is no proof of evolution which is a hoax. You mix God with your evolution. You have no faith in God which is obvious. You sin when you perpetuate this work of the deceiver.

Oh no, not this troll again!

GAZE

401 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:19:52pm

re: #386 Charles

Ah, I didn't know that. I thought he was an honest debater there for a second. Thanks for the heads up.

402 CrackrJak  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:20:20pm

re: #351 Zimriel

"Also: prove to us that Planned Parenthood is targeting religious believers for extermination."

When chants of "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries" and "Keep your God off my bod" are screamed at anti-abortion rallies, I think that's proof enough.

But if you need more proof then just look at the extreme efforts being taken to promote "Sexual Education" including birth control to children as young as 6-7 years old. Obama voted for a bill to do just that in the Illinois legislature.

If liberals had their way they force this "education" onto parochial school and home school students as well.

403 Dianna  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:20:27pm

re: #381 Killgore Trout

Like I said it is unimaginable to you that I am a moral human being. I can't help you.

Oh, dear.

Killgore, even when I disagree with you, I know you're a moral being.

404 ebed_melech  Thu, Dec 4, 2008 8:20:40pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

Your link and the positive posts on Dawkins site about eugenics below prove the point.
Please demonstrate how Jerry Bergman misquotes Dawkins.

405