Creation ‘Museum’ Shunned by Cincinnati Zoo

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Fri Dec 5, 2008 at 9:09 pm PST • Views: 180

The Cincinnati Zoo inexplicably decided to enter into a promotional deal with the ludicrous anti-scientific Answers in Genesis “Creation Museum” last week, but that didn’t last long after science bloggers found out: Creation ‘Museum’ rebuffed by Cincinnati Zoo.

“A promotional deal between the Cincinnati Zoo and the Creation Museum was scuttled Monday after the zoo received dozens of angry calls and emails about the partnership,” reported the Cincinnati Enquirer (December 1, 2008). The promotion involved a package deal for tickets to the zoo’s annual Festival of Lights and to a Christmas-themed event at Answers in Genesis’s Creation Museum. The museum, which opened its doors in northern Kentucky during Memorial Day weekend 2007, aims to illuminate “the effects of biblical history on our present and future world” — that is, to evangelize for Answers in Genesis’s particular brand of young-earth creationism.

On November 30, 2008, biologist and blogger P. Z. Myers complained about the promotion at his blog Pharyngula, writing, “the Cincinnati Zoo has betrayed its mission and its trust in a disgraceful way, by aligning themselves with a creationist institution that is a laughing stock to the rest of the world, and a mark of shame to the United States,” and urging his readers to write to the zoo to “point out the conflict between what they are doing and what their goal as an educational and research institution ought to be.” Other bloggers echoed his call, and the zoo was evidently flooded with calls and e-mails, prompting it to cancel the promotion because of the uproar. No refunds will be necessary, since no packages of tickets had been sold.

Kudos to the Cincinnati Zoo for canceling this ill-conceived partnership with one of the most backward creationist travesties in America.

Previously at LGF:
The Anti-Museum
Penn and Teller Take on Creationism
The Creation Museum

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559 comments

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1 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:10:12pm

The words "Creationism" and "museum" shouldn't be in the same sentence.

2 Floral Giraffe  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:10:52pm

No room at the Cincinnati Zoo for a push me-pull you display?

3 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:11:14pm

P. Z. Myers hates crackers.
/

4 poopeedoo  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:11:21pm

Good night lizards ~ off to do some chores before hitting the sack. Enjoy your new thread everyone.

5 Wyatt Earp  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:11:36pm

re: #1 zombie

The words "Creationism" and "museum" shouldn't be in the same sentence.

Well, sometimes it could be, because only an intellectual dinosaur would believe in Creationism!

6 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:13:02pm

Hey, Charles, I thought you were instructed by your Commenter Overlords to stop posting on this topic. And while you're at it, you are hereby ordered to also stop posting about jazz, the Tour de France, photos of supertankers, and anything the Committe of Appropriate Posts deems is unacceptable.

7 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:13:41pm

Committe = Committee

8 Wyatt Earp  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:14:03pm

re: #6 zombie

Hey, Charles, I thought you were instructed by your Commenter Overlords to stop posting on this topic. And while you're at it, you are hereby ordered to also stop posting about jazz, the Tour de France, photos of supertankers, and anything the Committe of Appropriate Posts deems is unacceptable.

He can stop with the Tour de France AFTER Lance wins it again!

9 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:14:21pm

So mote it be!

10 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:14:54pm

Do creationist zoos only have two of every animal?

11 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:15:14pm

They wanted to call the Creation Museum the Magic Kingdom, but that name was already taken.

12 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:15:59pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

Do creationist zoos only have two of every animal?

Only those known to live in the Middle East ca. 4,000 years ago. The rest don't exist.

13 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:16:03pm

I'd love to stick around and whack the trolls that will be showing up soon but my back is killing me. I'm of to soak in the tub and get into bed.
/Namaste, y'all

14 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:16:07pm

Like they need another fossil. They got Carson Palmer

15 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:16:10pm

Ah, let the gladiatorial games begin! Who's feeding the Christians to the lions this time?

16 solomonpanting  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:16:59pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

Do creationist zoos only have two of every animal?

Yes. They Noah good idea when they see it.

17 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:17:57pm

re: #6 zombie

Hey, Charles, I thought you were instructed by your Commenter Overlords to stop posting on this topic. And while you're at it, you are hereby ordered to also stop posting about jazz, the Tour de France, photos of supertankers, and anything the Committe of Appropriate Posts deems is unacceptable.

Hey, supertankers are out, faucets and nails are in.

18 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:18:21pm

Going by Renaissance-era doctrine, I hereby declare that:

Creationism is a prefiguration of evolution.

So, really, they're the same thing after all. We just don't realize it yet.

19 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:18:54pm

re: #17 Shay4l

Hey, supertankers are out, faucets and nails are in.

Showing my age, here.

20 MandyManners  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:19:15pm

Who suggested this in the first place!?!

21 little boomer  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:19:25pm

We are created to believe in evolution!

22 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:19:26pm

re: #15 picaro

Ah, let the gladiatorial games begin! Who's feeding the Christians to the lions this time?

First, the Christians would beat the Lions these days. Second, don't lump every Christian into the creationist pile. There are a billion or so people from one particular denomination that scoff at creationism.

23 MandyManners  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:19:42pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

I'd love to stick around and whack the trolls that will be showing up soon but my back is killing me. I'm of to soak in the tub and get into bed.
/Namaste, y'all

Take care!

24 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:20:25pm

re: #22 Mich-again

First, the Christians would beat the Lions these days.

What's the spread?

25 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:20:55pm
26 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:21:26pm

re: #19 zombie
Hey zombie - sorry for the OT - but do you know anything about the "investigation" into that contributor to zomblog's death by elevator?

27 revobob  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:21:31pm

Nite all- I'm going to see if the ground rocks me to sleep. Wheat dreams!

28 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:22:53pm
with one of the most backward creationist travesties in America.

Creationist transvestites?

29 hazzyday  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:23:02pm

How does Barney fit into all this?

30 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:23:42pm

Will the last creationist politician stand in front of the schoolhouse like Orval Faubus did in Little Rock in 1957, trying to prevent an evolutionist biology teacher from entering the building?

31 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:24:02pm

re: #21 little boomer

We are created to believe in evolution!

No one gets the option to be "believe" in evolution or not. Thats like believing in math or not. The sticking point in the whole argument is abiogenesis. And that argument always ends up the same way as two kids shouting " I know what you are but what am I" at each other.

32 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:24:05pm

re: #21 little boomer

We are created to believe in evolution!

We evolved to believe in creationism!

33 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:24:32pm

[Link: www.cincinnatizoo.org...]

Hmmm - who are these folks?

34 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:24:33pm

Just stunning- what was the Cincinnati Zoo thinking?! Zoology relies heavily on evolution!

35 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:24:35pm

re: #24 Shay4l

What's the spread?

The Lions are home dogs. 9-1/2 points.

36 SummerSong  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:25:32pm

re: #14 Shay4l

Like they need another fossil. They got Carson Palmer

I don't know...he was pretty cute when I met him at the endodontist's office.

37 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:25:53pm

re: #35 Mich-again
Only 9+1/2 points?! Whoa - I'd a figured at least 20 points.
Oh wait, is it an away game for the Lions?!

38 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:26:00pm

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

39 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:26:03pm

re: #9 zombie

Um...

I'm not gonna go all East Bay pagan on you...

40 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:26:54pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

short or long term?

41 Lynn B.  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:26:54pm

#25 ... ?

That didn't take long.

42 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:27:25pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

For how long has it been a problem?

43 Wyatt Earp  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:27:25pm

re: #40 Bobibutu

short or long term?

Listen to an Obama speech. Put her right out.

44 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:27:35pm

re: #37 realwest

Home. Blacked out too unless some idiot bought the rest of the tickets. But the last time the Lions played the Vikings it was only 12-10. Losing by only two points? Thats like a win.

45 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:27:36pm

re: #26 realwest

Hey zombie - sorry for the OT - but do you know anything about the "investigation" into that contributor to zomblog's death by elevator?

All I know is what I've posted at zomblog. I've been updating the post every couple hours for days -- all the latest info is there. Check it out now to see what's happened.

But basically -- no hard news. The police have fallen mum, under a strict Cone of Silence. There is now a Hate Crime task force involved, and OSHA. Rumblings about the FBI too.

The autopsy is complete, but the results won't be released for 3 weeks.

I think the public will be given no hard news for quite some time. Now, it's a waiting game.

46 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:27:56pm

re: #29 hazzyday

How does Barney fit into all this?

No more purple dinosaur!

47 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:27:59pm

re: #41 Lynn B.
Long enough for a downding!

48 swamprat  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:28:36pm

re: #38 Shay4l

warm milk
excercise
steak
beer
camomile tea

49 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:28:37pm

re: #39 Dianna

Um...

I'm not gonna go all East Bay pagan on you...

Wha?

Ah, while you're here... I'll be field-stripping my Kimber for the first time this weekend to clean it. The instructions are a little... poorly worded. Any tips?

50 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:28:41pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

You mean, G-rated suggestions?

51 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:28:54pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

I recommend sex. Lots of sex.

In reality, have her talk to her doctor, and get a sleep study.

52 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:29:11pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

You are referring to Noah's Ark? If I remember the Genesis account correctly, the animals unfit for consumption were by pair and birds / edible mammals were seven each. With the number of species we have, it would be a tight fit even on a supertanker, unless there was a lot of punctuated macroevolution for couple of thousand years after. I haven't read anything from DI or ICR, so I don't know whether they have attempted to explain this. But I don't really care much anyway. The discussion of the competing theories is somewhat entertaining, however.

53 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:29:14pm

re: #42 Occasional Reader

For how long has it been a problem?

It is a long term thing, most of her life.

54 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:29:16pm

re: #35 Mich-again

The Lions are home dogs. 9-1/2 points.

/is that before or after the Williams Wall won their injunction earlier today?

55 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:29:22pm

re: #40 Bobibutu

short or long term?

[Link: www.webmd.com...]

ah - some light exercise - warm milk and go down - relax.

56 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:29:31pm

re: #51 Dianna

I recommend sex. Lots of sex.

In reality, have her talk to her doctor, and get a sleep study.

That was going to be my suggestion too.

57 Lynn B.  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:30:04pm

re: #47 realwest

Long enough for a downding!

Heh. You're quick.

58 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:30:35pm

re: #39 Dianna

Um...

I'm not gonna go all East Bay pagan on you...

Us agnostic pseudo-pagans can use the lingo too, if we so choose! Sarcastically, even. Free speech!

59 gman  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:30:39pm

The Creation Museum's version of the story of Noah's Ark.

60 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:30:49pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

Do you have a DVD of Dangerous Liaisons? I think technically I went into a coma when my wife dragged me to that movie. All I remember was the previews and then her beating me with a shoe to wake me up.

61 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:31:06pm

Kiddos are in bed, I've got a pint on hand.

What's up?

62 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:31:17pm

re: #53 Shay4l

It is a long term thing, most of her life.

Has she ever talked to a doctor about it?

63 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:31:39pm

re: #52 picaro

No- I was referring to Jonah's ark.

64 Crux Australis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:31:47pm

I find it rather cringeworthy that Australia gave Ken Ham (amongst others) to the world.

65 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:31:56pm

re: #61 jcm

Kiddos are in bed, I've got a pint on hand.

What's up?

Transvestite creationists, insomnia, and field-stripping Kimbers.

66 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:32:06pm

re: #22 Mich-again

There are relatively few true adherents to any religion. 95% of the planet is actually in the Church of Self.

67 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:32:27pm

re: #49 Occasional Reader

Wha?

Ah, while you're here... I'll be field-stripping my Kimber for the first time this weekend to clean it. The instructions are a little... poorly worded. Any tips?

One: when you're using that little tool to press the retaining cap and spring in, get it right the first time. If you don't get it to catch, it takes forever to find the cap again.

On disassembly, make sure that you thoroughly - and I mean thoroughly - clean the magazine catch. That's the only bit of the Kimber that gave me grief, barring that really annoying retaining washer on the front of the barrel.

68 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:32:43pm

re: #66 picaro

95% of the planet is actually in the Church of Self.

And I'm the Pope!

69 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:32:46pm

I've told this before but bears repeating.
In the 1930's my mother and her cousin were at the a Zoo with my great aunt.
When they came upon the giraffe exhibit, my great aunt said, "Don't look at that, there's no such thing."
Some people just can't accept reality, even when it is right in front of them.

70 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:33:02pm

re: #65 Occasional Reader

and field-stripping Kimbers

You sneaked that one in there!

/trying to start something?

71 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:33:08pm

re: #53 Shay4l

It is a long term thing, most of her life.

Sleep study. Really.

72 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:33:31pm

I just go to synagogue for the wise Hasidic Rabbis and their great stories.

73 jaunte  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:33:33pm

"Some complained that the zoo, which receives public support through a tax levy, should not become involved with a private museum dedicated to the teachings of the Bible’s Book of Genesis. Others said a scientific institution shouldn’t link itself to a place that argues man once lived side by side with dinosaurs."

Ken Ham took the occasion to criticize the intolerant.

[Link: www.courier-journal.com...]

74 Dan G.  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:34:04pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

The sex or the doctor?

75 solomonpanting  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:34:19pm

re: #60 Mich-again

Do you have a DVD of Dangerous Liaisons? I think technically I went into a coma when my wife dragged me to that movie. All I remember was the previews and then her beating me with a shoe to wake me up.

What a disturbing movie. All that time and effort to win a woman's love, only to disgrace and dispose of her.
(No wonder France went into a spiral.)

76 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:34:20pm

re: #58 zombie

Us agnostic pseudo-pagans can use the lingo too, if we so choose! Sarcastically, even. Free speech!

I have never actually used that phrase. I swear!

But really, it's pretty much reserved for certain kinds of invocations and spells.

77 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:34:24pm

re: #67 Dianna

when you're using that little tool to press the retaining cap and spring in, get it right the first time.

1) You mean the odd-shaped wrench?

2) Um... okay, any pointers for "getting it right"?

78 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:34:26pm

re: #66 picaro

And 57% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

79 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:35:04pm

re: #45 zombie
Thanks zombie - I do hope the FBI gets involved in this and I too am surprised that there's been not a peep out of the SF Gay community about this.

80 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:35:14pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Just stunning- what was the Cincinnati Zoo thinking?! Zoology relies heavily on evolution!

All due respect here - and it's like the WOT - until a specific entity is identified and focused on ... this is a never ending game.

The Cincinnati Zoo is not the problem - persons who control it are.

They could use a bit of sunlight individually.

81 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:36:10pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

Consider Transcendental Meditation.
It really has healing benefits.
Yoga too.

82 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:36:12pm

re: #75 solomonpanting

Is that what that movie was about? I remember a guy in a white wig. Then it was lights out.

83 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:36:20pm

re: #68 zombie

The infallible leader!

84 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:36:32pm

re: #65 Occasional Reader

Transvestite creationists, insomnia, and field-stripping Kimbers.

Strip and reassemble the Kimber until tired, shoot the transvestite creationist, strip, clean and reassemble the Kimber, go to bed, sleep well.

85 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:36:46pm
86 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:37:57pm

re: #62 Occasional Reader

Has she ever talked to a doctor about it?

She has had surgery on her nose and no longer has any septum blockages. I no longer hear any stoppages of her breathing when we're in bed. I guess we'll need to see a different kind of doc.

87 solomonpanting  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:38:04pm

re: #82 Mich-again

Is that what that movie was about? I remember a guy in a white wig. Then it was lights out.

Actually, you didn't miss much.

88 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:38:15pm

re: #74 Dan G.

The sex or the doctor?

The doctor? Right- like some evolutionist would help.

/

89 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:38:48pm

re: #15 picaro

Guess no one's in the mood for jokes? Get a sense of humor, people. Life goes a lot easier with one.

90 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:38:48pm

re: #77 Occasional Reader

1) You mean the odd-shaped wrench?

2) Um... okay, any pointers for "getting it right"?

Yes to 1).

For 2): Hold the frame with your weak hand; as you press, you'll feel a very slight (and it's subtle) "click" when you're in the right place. Press harder, and turn the wrench-like item to the right. If you waver, relax and go back and do it again, without removing the wrench.

Just don't release the wrench from over the retaining piece until said piece remains in place.

91 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:39:14pm

re: #76 Dianna

I have never actually used that phrase. I swear!

But really, it's pretty much reserved for certain kinds of invocations and spells.

What in the wide, wide world of sports are you two talking about?

92 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:39:49pm

re: #89 picaro

I'm sorry. Was that a joke? Mah bad.

93 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:39:50pm

Wait wait wait -- the CINCINNATI Zoo?!?!?

I'm having a memory here. ...

One of the funniest incident of the last 30 years, happened there -- on this very topic! Seriously! I saved the article, back in the pre-internet era.

The Cincinnati Zoo, many years ago, had one of those "animatronic dinosaur" exhibits opening. They worded the advertisement in such a way as to really entice the crowds. "Come see the dinosaurs move! Watch them as they eat!" Etc.

Massive crowds showed up to see the exhibit. And then...

Massive complaints, and everyone demanding their money back...because the dinosaurs turned out to be not real!

Seems half the people were expecting, real, living dinosuars.

This confirms my belief that there's a lot of, shall we say, lack of solid information in the Cincinnati area concerning the history of species.

94 MandyManners  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:39:54pm

re: #80 Bobibutu

All due respect here - and it's like the WOT - until a specific entity is identified and focused on ... this is a never ending game.

The Cincinnati Zoo is not the problem - persons who control it are.

They could use a bit of sunlight individually.

I'd Google all the names but I'm sleepy.

95 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:39:57pm

You know, Judaism isn't so bad. What gives religion a bad name is all the missionary activity and "convert to save yourself" hoopla. No Jewish missionaries (except the douchebag ones in Jerusalem - but you can find anything in Jerusalem).

96 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:41:05pm

re: #91 Occasional Reader

What in the wide, wide world of sports are you two talking about?

"So mote it be."

A particularly annoying bit of pseudo-antique phrasing popular among fluffy-bunny embracing pagans.

Which does not mean me.

97 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:41:59pm

re: #95 traderjoe9

You know, Judaism isn't so bad. What gives religion a bad name is all the missionary activity and "convert to save yourself" hoopla. No Jewish missionaries (except the douchebag ones in Jerusalem - but you can find anything in Jerusalem).

Careful, I put you on every JW and LDS list...
/ ;-P

98 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:42:02pm

re: #94 MandyManners

I'd Google all the names but I'm sleepy.

Good on ya. Sleep well.

99 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:18pm

re: #97 jcm

Careful, I put you on every JW and LDS list...
/ ;-P

JW don't make lists.

100 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:25pm

Islamophobia!

The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee said it received an average of 120 to 130 reports of ethnically motivated attacks or threats each year between 2003 and 2007, a sharp decrease from the 700 violent incidents it documented in the weeks following the 2001 attacks.

That may sound like a lot to some of you. But it's really not. Let's look at anti-Semitic incidents in 2007:

The League's annual Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents, issued today, counted a total of 1,554 anti-Semitic incidents across the United States in 2006, representing a 12 percent decline from 1,757 reported in 2005.

Oh how we suffer.

101 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:42pm

re: #93 zombie

This confirms my belief that there's a lot of, shall we say, lack of solid information in the Cincinnati area concerning the history of species.


Are you poking fun at the salt of the Earth good people in Ohio and Kentucky? Ha. The real question is, exactly what did all the advertisements claim. I'll bet they promised real dinosaurs. //

102 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:42pm

re: #77 Occasional Reader
Ah geez, O.R. - didn't it come with an instruction manual?!

103 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:45pm

re: #89 picaro

Guess no one's in the mood for jokes? Get a sense of humor, people. Life goes a lot easier with one.

Maybe your joke wasn't funny.

104 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:46pm

re: #86 Shay4l

She has had surgery on her nose and no longer has any septum blockages. I no longer hear any stoppages of her breathing when we're in bed. I guess we'll need to see a different kind of doc.

I'd say start with her general practitioner, about this specific problem. It's not necessarily a big deal, could be caused by a lot of things, most of them treatable.

For temporary relief in the meantime, she could use Nytol or Tylenol P.M. or "Simply Sleep", or other OTC sleep aids. They can help break the insomnia cycle for a night.

105 solomonpanting  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:43:51pm

re: #29 hazzyday

How does Barney fit into all this?

The cartoon character or the Senator?

(This is right down the middle of the plate.)

106 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:44:19pm

re: #97 jcm

Careful, I put you on every JW and LDS list...
/ ;-P

Heh :-)

107 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:44:48pm

Sorry. Its the Sabbath. I'm not reacting well to the wine.

108 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:02pm

re: #103 Sharmuta

Maybe your joke wasn't funny.

All the jokes about the Lions are old hat.

109 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:06pm

Remember that 500 point DOW rally off the low earlier today, in the face of the worst unemployment news in decades?

/well, it was on 10% higher volume, impressive, I think we might just catch an up wave here

110 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:14pm

re: #99 Walter L. Newton

Nah, they just go door to door. But they'll make a return visit if you make the mistake of seeming interested in what they say.

111 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:26pm

re: #76 Dianna

But really, it's pretty much reserved for certain kinds of invocations and spells.

I know -- that's why I saved it for that very important invocation, to make sure Charles obeyed the Committee of Appropriate Posts.

One linguistic mystery has always intrigued me: whether there is an etymological connection between the square-dancing caller command "do-see-do" and the magic ritual instruction "deosil" -- since they actually mean the same thing, in completely different contexts! I've never been able to successfully research and prove my theory.

112 Dan G.  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:34pm

re: #89 picaro

Trying to lighten a serious topic is treason.

113 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:36pm

re: #102 realwest

Ah geez, O.R. - didn't it come with an instruction manual?!

Yes, it did. But why are they all so poorly worded?

114 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:40pm

re: #78 Mich-again

And 57% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

56%.
/

115 Steffan  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:45:59pm

re: #45 zombie

Lots of questions, no answers.

Kurt Saxon pontificated about the perfect hit in The Poor Man's James Bond. I'd hate to think this was similar.

116 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:46:35pm

re: #99 Walter L. Newton

JW don't make lists.

They got the 144,000 list...
Your right they hit everyone. They don't round here anymore, I invited them in for a cup of coffee and spent a couple hours screwing with them. They haven't been back since.

117 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:46:44pm

re: #103 Sharmuta

Maybe your joke wasn't funny.

I've bookmarked the Caganer page. If I ever have a few funny bucks to spend, I'm getting one of those, maybe a pair, Smurfette and a Obama.

118 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:48:21pm

re: #111 zombie

I know -- that's why I saved it for that very important invocation, to make sure Charles obeyed the Committee of Appropriate Posts.

One linguistic mystery has always intrigued me: whether there is an etymological connection between the square-dancing caller command "do-see-do" and the magic ritual instruction "deosil" -- since they actually mean the same thing, in completely different contexts! I've never been able to successfully research and prove my theory.

You have it right, but remember, most people who subscribe to fluffy bunny worship go to great lengths to make their "art" sound far more impressive and antique than it is. I'd hunt the references for you, but most of them aren't actually - to my knowledge - on line. And I'm a bit tired to hunt through the library tonight.

119 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:48:47pm

re: #113 Occasional Reader

Yes, it did. But why are they all so poorly worded?

Kimber Custom TLE II Field Strip Part I

/probably help to know your model

120 Lynn B.  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:48:55pm

Good news, for a change.

/out

121 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:48:56pm

re: #113 Occasional Reader

Yes, it did. But why are they all so poorly worded?

Because, heaven save us, they were written by engineers.

122 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:49:18pm

re: #89 picaro

Guess no one's in the mood for jokes? Get a sense of humor, people. Life goes a lot easier with one.

guess it's a lot harder if you're a joke though, eh?

123 Shay4l  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:49:27pm

re: #104 Occasional Reader

I'd say start with her general practitioner, about this specific problem. It's not necessarily a big deal, could be caused by a lot of things, most of them treatable.

For temporary relief in the meantime, she could use Nytol or Tylenol P.M. or "Simply Sleep", or other OTC sleep aids. They can help break the insomnia cycle for a night.

Thank you everyone for replying.

124 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:49:53pm

re: #113 Occasional Reader
They aren't poorly worded, but you're a lawyer and read things into the instructions that aren't there!
Is there an 800 phone number you could call?

125 Steffan  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:50:33pm

re: #38 Shay4l

OT my wife has a terrible time with insomnia. Any ideas out there, my friends?

In many cases it's due to apnea. What does her doctor say?

126 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:50:39pm

re: #112 Dan G.

Serious? Zoos are generally entertainment, and the one in Cincy was probably looking for another attraction. And this whole issue gives them publicity. Most of us never visited our local zoo after high school until we had our own children.

127 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:51:14pm

re: #116 jcm

They got the 144,000 list...
Your right they hit everyone. They don't round here anymore, I invited them in for a cup of coffee and spent a couple hours screwing with them. They haven't been back since.

I was a Witness for 5 years. A very good one, even spent some time in Bethel (HQ in Brooklyn). I not only left, I spoke out against them, which makes me an apostate.

This was back in Texas.

When local teams of two here in Golden Colorado visit me, I tell them that one of them better be an Elder, because I am an apostate and they are forbidden to speak to an apostate unless an Elder is present.

You should see the looks on their faces. They are always told about the beg bad apostates, but it's sort of like the boogey man, you never expect to run into one.

128 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:52:10pm

re: #126 picaro

Serious? Zoos are generally entertainment, and the one in Cincy was probably looking for another attraction. And this whole issue gives them publicity. Most of us never visited our local zoo after high school until we had our own children.

After the tiger killed those two guys in San Francisco last December attendance skyrocketed. The Zoo is a weird place.

129 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:52:14pm

re: #118 Dianna

No problem. No need to research it right now.

I've had many a great laugh at the pseudo-ancient rituals and phrases of the Gardnerians. As someone who knows a great deal about real history and liguistics, not "fluffy bunny" history as you deem it, some of their most precious "secrets" are quite humorous when inspected by a critical scholarly eye!

130 Steffan  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:52:38pm

re: #93 zombie

P.T. Barnum was a very wise man.

131 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:53:32pm

re: #121 Dianna

Because, heaven save us, they were written by engineers.

I was thinking the same thing.

132 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:53:38pm

re: #89 picaro

Guess no one's in the mood for jokes? Get a sense of humor, people. Life goes a lot easier with one.

Just for you:

Christmas Story for people having a bad day:

When four of Santa's elves got sick, the trainee elves did not produce toys as fast as the regular ones, and Santa began to feel the Pre-Christmas pressure.

Then Mrs Claus told Santa her Mother was coming to visit, which stressed Santa even more.

When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of them were about to give birth and two others had jumped the fence and were out, Heaven knows where.

Then when he began to load the sleigh, one of the floorboards cracked, the toy bag fell to the ground and all the toys were scattered.

Frustrated, Santa went in the house for a cup of apple cider and a shot of rum. When he went to the cupboard, he discovered the elves had drank all the cider and hidden the liquor. In his frustration, he accidentally dropped the cider jug, and it broke into hundreds of little glass pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to get the broom and found the mice had eaten all the straw off the end of the broom.

Just then the doorbell rang, and irritated Santa marched to the door, yanked it open, and there stood a little angel with a great big Christmas tree.

The angel said very cheerfully, 'Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn't this a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you. Where would you like me to stick it?'

And so began the tradition of the little angel on top of the Christmas tree.

133 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:53:42pm

re: #126 picaro

Serious? Zoos are generally entertainment, and the one in Cincy was probably looking for another attraction. And this whole issue gives them publicity. Most of us never visited our local zoo after high school until we had our own children.

Maybe our Lizard "Stretch" could talk the zoo into getting a few pygmies to put on display.

134 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:54:18pm

re: #131 jcm

I was thinking the same thing.

Grrr ...

135 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:54:37pm

re: #80 Bobibutu

All due respect here - and it's like the WOT - until a specific entity is identified and focused on ... this is a never ending game.

The Cincinnati Zoo is not the problem - persons who control it are.

They could use a bit of sunlight individually.

I can't understand that. I've had the privilege to see the Henry Doorly Zoo on a number of occasions, and it's one of the finest institutions of it's kind in the country. I couldn't imagine them doing something like this- I can't imagine any zoo doing something like this. It's anti-science and they're supposed to be zoologists!

136 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:56:10pm

re: #132 Bobibutu
ROTFL! Great one! LOL!

137 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:57:04pm

Is there an end to the universe? And if these is, whats on the other side?

138 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:57:15pm

re: #127 Walter L. Newton

I was a Witness for 5 years. A very good one, even spent some time in Bethel (HQ in Brooklyn). I not only left, I spoke out against them, which makes me an apostate.

This was back in Texas.

When local teams of two here in Golden Colorado visit me, I tell them that one of them better be an Elder, because I am an apostate and they are forbidden to speak to an apostate unless an Elder is present.

You should see the looks on their faces. They are always told about the beg bad apostates, but it's sort of like the boogey man, you never expect to run into one.

LOL! I was in LE training with a JW apostate, he wanted to go into the military and LE. Apparently that is a problem with some JW's not sure of the details. His parents denounced him or something like that. When it came to the JW's his was very bitter for cutting him off from family. But he wanted to make his own life and didn't think the JW's should have that kind of power.

139 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:57:24pm

re: #119 Killian Bundy

Kimber Custom TLE II Field Strip Part I

/probably help to know your model

Oh, that's helpful. Didn't even think to look on Youtube. Thanks.

(My model's the Warrior, but basically the same, Custom II family)

140 bosforus  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:57:45pm

Found a pretty cool website today. Maps of War. [mapsofwar.com] Shows time lapses for various events throughout history. Here's one showing the history of religion. (in case there are any Christians here feeling left out the last 20 seconds or so of the animation will bring a smile to your face)

141 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:57:46pm

re: #132 Bobibutu

Haven't heard that one for a while, but you told it better than all of the others. My compliments to you.

142 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:59:12pm

re: #134 Bobibutu

Grrr ...

I'm an Electrical Engineer Technician, I support 30 some engineers in my division. God love 'em, but than can be so helpless at times. I re-write shit for them all the time, and I don't write so goodly.

143 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 9:59:51pm

re: #129 zombie

No problem. No need to research it right now.

I've had many a great laugh at the pseudo-ancient rituals and phrases of the Gardnerians. As someone who knows a great deal about real history and liguistics, not "fluffy bunny" history as you deem it, some of their most precious "secrets" are quite humorous when inspected by a critical scholarly eye!

I laugh, when I'm not burning with embarrassment.

Frankly, I blame it all on Sybil Leek. If she'd just stayed on her side of the Atlantic, I would not have to constantly explain that Gardner was heavily into the satisfaction of the male sexual urges, with a heavy dose of B&D, and Sybil was a fraud of a medium who outlived her usefulness. Which is why she decided she was going to go promote "witchcraft"/ the "old religion", compounded out of a perfectly riotous blend of Margaret Murray nonsense (Murray was an Egyptologist, for pity's sake!), Jesse Weston mysticism about the grail and tarot, and Gardner's pathetic story-telling, with just a dash of Crowley-ite perversion thrown in for spice.

Grrr.

144 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:00:22pm

re: #127 Walter L. Newton

My aunt was a JW, and I remember when I was a kid she told me that very soon everything in the world would be free- If I wanted to go on vacation, I'd be able to just get on the plane.

A couple years later my grandmother, her sister, who was a devout Catholic died. When we had the funeral mass at Grandma's church she wouldn't even go in it. She sat in the car. I never liked her or wanted anything to do with her after that. It was disgusting.

145 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:00:22pm

re: #109 Killian Bundy

I think we might just catch an up wave here

As soon as all those people who have been dumping stocks to buy municipal bonds realize that the municipalities that have promised to pay the interest on those bonds might eventually be facing bankruptcy as well. Municipalities of all sizes eventually depend on tax revenue to survive and pay all their obligations.

I think the answer is pretty simple. People need to try to spend their money domestically instead of sending it overseas as soon as they get it. And Government needs to focus on making it easier for domestic businesses to actually make a profit instead of always trying to bleed them dry.

As for the banks, once they have to gamble with their own chips instead of house chips, that situation will fix itself.

146 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:00:27pm

re: #138 jcm

LOL! I was in LE training with a JW apostate, he wanted to go into the military and LE. Apparently that is a problem with some JW's not sure of the details. His parents denounced him or something like that. When it came to the JW's his was very bitter for cutting him off from family. But he wanted to make his own life and didn't think the JW's should have that kind of power.

What is LE?

147 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:00:48pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

I can't understand that. I've had the privilege to see the Henry Doorly Zoo on a number of occasions, and it's one of the finest institutions of it's kind in the country. I couldn't imagine them doing something like this- I can't imagine any zoo doing something like this. It's anti-science and they're supposed to be zoologists!

Shar - my point is that it's not "the zoo" any more than it's "the moon" - there is no specific reference to get a handle on there. We need to chunk down to ID those individuals who would use their position to push an agenda that is a personal belief vs established science.

148 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:00:48pm

re: #137 traderjoe9

Is there an end to the universe? And if these is, whats on the other side?

Send the Enterprise to investigate!

149 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:01:05pm

re: #126 picaro

Serious? Zoos are generally entertainment, and the one in Cincy was probably looking for another attraction. And this whole issue gives them publicity. Most of us never visited our local zoo after high school until we had our own children.

That is especially true in the case of the Festival of Lights. It is not a scientific exhibit. Heck the only animals even out side on display are the penguins. FoL is mostly a fund raising event designed to seperate amorous young men, eager to take their ladies on a romantic horse drawn carraige tour around some beautiful light displays, from their cash. The zoo will gladly admit creationists, Scientologists, even turtles-all-the-way-down-ologists if they show up with the proper number of dollar bills ($7 when I was an amorous young man). This really doesn't take anything away from the impresive research the cincy zoo does in it's breading programs.

150 jaunte  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:01:10pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

I think many zoo marketing departments are staffed by people who are pretty narrow in their focus. The marketing manager probably wasn't thinking of anything other than getting more bodies through the gate when he made the cross-promotion deal.

151 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:01:52pm

re: #148 Dianna

Send the Enterprise to investigate!

Or maybe the UN can open up a special committee to investigate the matter.

152 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:02:02pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

What is LE?

Law Enforcement. He talked about a JW prohibition on firearms and swearing an oath like the military oath.

153 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:02:13pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton
Law Enforcement.

154 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:03:00pm

re: #152 jcm
Eleven Seconds! Zounds, I must try to type faster!

155 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:03:37pm

re: #119 Killian Bundy

Excellent video. Got one for a Taurus 9mm PT111 Millennium Pro?

Not for me, of course. While that vid was playing, I stripped and reassembled mine in 90 seconds (down to the barrel and back).

156 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:04:09pm

re: #144 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

My aunt was a JW, and I remember when I was a kid she told me that very soon everything in the world would be free- If I wanted to go on vacation, I'd be able to just get on the plane.

A couple years later my grandmother, her sister, who was a devout Catholic died. When we had the funeral mass at Grandma's church she wouldn't even go in it. She sat in the car. I never liked her or wanted anything to do with her after that. It was disgusting.

As you probably know (or discovered) Jehovah's Witnesses are an exclusivity sect. They consider themselves to be the only true Christianity and all of the rest of the sects calling themselves Christian are not true Christians.

They do not believe in sharing in any sort of ritual or services in any other church of Christendom, which is their word for all defective followers of Christ.

157 swamprat  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:04:25pm

re: #76 Dianna

I have never actually used that phrase. I swear!

But really, it's pretty much reserved for certain kinds of invocations and spells.

If your coven can never meet because there is no place to park;

You might be a San Franciscan pagan.

If the seal for the spell...glares at you and jumps back in the water

If you have a High Priest for summer and spring services and a High Priestess for winter and fall..and they are the same person

If you must walk "widow shins" while doing a rite, not for the spell, but because you're no longer young enough to possibly go up that hill.

Bacchus gets very ribald and the person who is wearing leather and woman's cologne while knocking on your door is an on-duty policeman, asking you to quiet the party.

You do a spell for parking; every single day

You go looking for a wode connection...and you find out the city councilman is the dealer

You could be a San Francisco Pagan.

158 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:04:28pm

Has anyone else noted that any "Festival of Lights" is a dumb idea in the first place. A waste of perfectly good electricity.

159 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:04:34pm

re: #136 realwest

ROTFL! Great one! LOL!

OK one for you RW ...

A well respected San Francisco psychoanalyst and a member of the Board of Trustees of Beyt Tikkun Synagogue (and frequently published author in the pages of Tikkun) has brought the following question to our community, and hopes that its best Talmudic scholars might think more about it:

Is it okay to take Viagra on Shabbat?

One Rabbi says that Jewish law forbids the ingestion of Viagra on Shabbat, lest one violate the infraction of erecting a structure on the Sabbath.

But another Rabbi says that as a medication that adds pleasure to the Sabbath (not to mention the rest of the week), it is permissible. But it is banned during Pesach (Passover) - along with all other agents causing things to rise.

And what baracha (blessing) does one say before taking the Viagra pill?

There is a choice of three blessings:

1. Boruch Atah HaShem zokeif k'fuffim - bless you God for straightening those who are bent;

2. Ya'aleh v'yavo - arise and come;

3. Boruch Atah HaShem mechayei hameitim - bless you God for raising the dead.

160 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:04:44pm

re: #149 Neo Con since 9-11

What do they do with the animals, once they've been breaded? Deep frying? Or do they prefer a rotisserie?

161 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:06:07pm

re: #157 swamprat

That's pretty funny!

162 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:06:48pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

What is LE?

And LEO is Law Enforcement Officer.

If a cop ever asks you if you are a LEO - they think you are undercover.

163 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:06:53pm

re: #152 jcm

Law Enforcement. He talked about a JW prohibition on firearms and swearing an oath like the military oath.

Well, JW are pacifists, so they will not take up arms against anyone, friend or foe. Simple as that.

164 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:06:57pm

re: #143 Dianna

I kinda liked Doreen Valiente, though. Her editorship actually saved Gardner's books from utter unreadability. I still love the language in her "Charge of the Goddess", even if she DID plagiarize The Golden Ass by Lucius Apulius to write it...

165 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:07:00pm

re: #158 Mich-again

Has anyone else noted that any "Festival of Lights" is a dumb idea in the first place. A waste of perfectly good electricity.

Sure we can all sit around the fire, with roast Mammoth haunch and curse the darkness till spring!

/

166 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:07:20pm

re: #147 Bobibutu

Shar - my point is that it's not "the zoo" any more than it's "the moon" - there is no specific reference to get a handle on there. We need to chunk down to ID those individuals who would use their position to push an agenda that is a personal belief vs established science.

I agree.

I have such mixed emotions about zoos. I love that they give us an opportunity to see such amazing animals, yet I am torn in that these creatures belong in the wild. But I'm then reminded of the incredible work many zoos do to help protect endangered wildlife. The Doorly zoo has one of the best large cat programs in the world, and has helped breed countless cats throughout America's zoos.

It's shocking to think a zoo would make an alliance with a group bound and determined to undermine the science that helps keep many of these animals from extinction and undermines the basis for which they stand.

167 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:07:55pm

re: #159 Bobibutu
Um, and what do the Talmudic Scholars have to say if
"it" lasts more than four hours?!

168 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:08:18pm

re: #164 Salamantis

I kinda liked Doreen Valiente, though. Her editorship actually saved Gardner's books from utter unreadability. I still love the language in her "Charge of the Goddess", even if she DID plagiarize The Golden Ass by Lucius Apulius to write it...

It was the plagiarism that burned me!

Well, among other things.

I still giggle at the scene where he gazes longingly at the statue of Epona.

169 Occasional Reader  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:08:28pm

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

Well, JW are pacifists, so they will not take up arms against anyone, friend or foe. Simple as that.

Excellent! Now I know who to go to when my lunch money comes up short.

Good night.

170 gmsc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:08:48pm

Time for my standard list of favorite ID/Creationist argument links:

reDiscovery Institute (Parody site)

Using creationist/ID arguments against them:
Why We Believe in a Designer!
Organisms that Look Designed
Oolon Colluphid's Guide to Creation

Talk.Origins archive

People involved in spreading Darwin's discoveries as a philosophy, whom Ben Stein mysteriously neglects to mention:
Ernst Haeckel
William Sumner
Vladmir Ulyanov

Is There An Artifical God? (essay by Douglas Adams)

Get A-Life (essay on using artificial life to study evolution)

Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker (video about a-life)

The Day The Universe Changed - "Fit To Rule" (Episode 8):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

171 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:08:55pm

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

Well, JW are pacifists, so they will not take up arms against anyone, friend or foe. Simple as that.

I wasn't sure of the JW doctrine, only he wanted to go military and then be a cop.
He paid a price for that.

172 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:09:38pm

re: #167 realwest

Um, and what do the Talmudic Scholars have to say if
"it" lasts more than four hours?!

I don't know what Rebe would say, but I know I would call every woman I ever knew.

173 HelloDare  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:10:05pm

Charles,

Do people get negative Karma Points if a comment gets deleted? How many?

174 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:10:24pm

re: #160 Dianna

Humbug. Paint fillers=bed spaulding

175 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:10:43pm

re: #166 Sharmuta

I agree.

I have such mixed emotions about zoos. I love that they give us an opportunity to see such amazing animals, yet I am torn in that these creatures belong in the wild. But I'm then reminded of the incredible work many zoos do to help protect endangered wildlife. The Doorly zoo has one of the best large cat programs in the world, and has helped breed countless cats throughout America's zoos.

It's shocking to think a zoo would make an alliance with a group bound and determined to undermine the science that helps keep many of these animals from extinction and undermines the basis for which they stand.

That is why I mentioned up-thread that the directors of the CZ need sunlight.

176 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:10:45pm
177 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:10:49pm

re: #150 jaunte

I think many zoo marketing departments are staffed by people who are pretty narrow in their focus. The marketing manager probably wasn't thinking of anything other than getting more bodies through the gate when he made the cross-promotion deal.

That's probably true, but a little like making a deal with the devil.

178 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:11:18pm

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

On the occasions when the witnesses knock on my front door, I like to engage them in discussion until they turn and run away.

179 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:11:18pm

re: #172 Walter L. Newton
LOL! It ws, iirc, George Carlin or Robin Williams who said "Go to the nearest house of ill-repute for the night!"

180 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:11:18pm

re: #171 jcm

I wasn't sure of the JW doctrine, only he wanted to go military and then be a cop.
He paid a price for that.

He probably did. He was probably disfellowshipped from the organization and shunned by his family and friends.

That's the rules.

181 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:11:36pm

re: #167 realwest

Um, and what do the Talmudic Scholars have to say if
"it" lasts more than four hours?!

Call your doctor! Stat.

182 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:11:56pm

re: #157 swamprat

Up-dinged, but, "wode connection?"

183 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:12:06pm

re: #165 jcm

mmm. Roast mammoth.

184 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:12:22pm

re: #170 gmsc

obviously you are part and parcel of the jihad here at LGF...

/moonbat

185 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:12:56pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

He probably did. He was probably disfellowshipped from the organization and shunned by his family and friends.

That's the rules.

Sad, very sad.

186 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:13:25pm

re: #178 Mich-again

On the occasions when the witnesses knock on my front door, I like to engage them in discussion until they turn and run away.

Explain.

187 ggt  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:13:51pm

Hello Friday Night Lizards! It's still cold and icy in Near Iowa.

Do I want to know what Intersex is?

Cinci Zoo is a wonderful place. As well as being a Zooalogical Garden it is a Botanical Garden. There is a wonderful place called Swan Lake. It was while watching the swans there that I figured-out how to properly perform the yoga posture known as The Swan.

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

188 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:14:10pm

The AIG shills won't come out of the woodwork until everyone moves to the next thread, that's their pattern. Me, I need to catch some zzz's.

See you on the morrow

189 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:14:11pm

re: #143 Dianna

I laugh, when I'm not burning with embarrassment.

Frankly, I blame it all on Sybil Leek. ... promote "witchcraft"/ the "old religion", compounded out of a perfectly riotous blend of Margaret Murray nonsense (Murray was an Egyptologist, for pity's sake!), Jesse Weston mysticism about the grail and tarot, and Gardner's pathetic story-telling, with just a dash of Crowley-ite perversion thrown in for spice.

Grrr.

But it's all so very ancient! Why, it dates all the way back to the Great Matriarchy, er, I mean 1954!

190 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:14:26pm

"How bad is the recession in New Jersey?"

"So bad that the Mafia is laying off judges."

191 gmsc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:15:04pm

re: #184 redc1c4

obviously you are part and parcel of the jihad here at LGF...

/moonbat

Except for the "jihad" part, yep!

192 jaunte  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:15:05pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

Sounds like he got a quick education.

193 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:15:41pm

Hey Dianna; can ya blue yer nick for me for a sec?

194 picaro  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:15:46pm

re: #167 realwest

Bris!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn49iMUs3EU

(After the 5:00 time mark)

195 bosforus  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:16:08pm
196 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:16:58pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Just listen to them and ask good questions. One after another. 5 minutes tops and they are outta there.

197 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:16:59pm

re: #178 Mich-again

On the occasions when the witnesses knock on my front door, I like to engage them in discussion until they turn and run away.

years ago, at my parents house, they came by one afternoon.

i got the stock speech, and then they started in about the Bible.

i mentioned that none of the quotes they were referencing were in my Bible, and they got excited. i told them to give me a minute and i'd get mine to compare.

i came back with the then current FM 7-11 Mech Infantry manual... and spent several minutes leafing through it saying "see, i can't find *any* of that stuff here...

/they just looked at each other and walked off.

never had another knock as long as i lived there.

198 ggt  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:18:10pm

One thing I always thought that was kool about the Cincinati Zoo was that a kid could go to High School there. Really, if a kid was really scientifically bent, he/she could spend part of there High School career working at the zoo. I don't remember the particulars, but I thought it was a kool idea.

We lived there for a very short time.

199 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:19:06pm

re: #188 Thanos

The AIG shills won't come out of the woodwork until everyone moves to the next thread, that's their pattern.

Whats an AIG shill?

200 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:19:23pm

re: #187 ggt

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

Not yoga...

;)

Currently 27° and light snow here in the Twin cities.

Balmy.

201 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:19:24pm

re: #189 zombie

But it's all so very ancient! Why, it dates all the way back to the Great Matriarchy, er, I mean 1954!

Yeah. Right. I believe every bloody word.

I'd rather deal with an out-and-out member of the Temple of Thoth. Not that there are any; it requires actual work and study to be a ritual magician.

Bloody Starhawk and her "make a ritual up!" manual!

202 freedomplow  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:19:40pm

Don't mind creationists myself.

In fact, it is kind of fun to argue with them. I like them.

You can learn a lot arguing with people that are basically on the same side of every issue except this one.

We talk about it for a while, then I ask them to look at the stars.
The mathematics of forever is humbling.

You might be able to change some minds but you will change very few hearts. Most creationists are searching for something within themselves.

The creationists I have met are basically good people.

No in public schools. Other than that I wouldn't get my panties twisted.

203 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:19:51pm

re: #193 Salamantis

Hey Dianna; can ya blue yer nick for me for a sec?

It is done!

204 swamprat  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:19:59pm

re: #182 Noam Sayin'

Wode was used as a stupefying drug. Sacrifices stayed put and brooms used as big brushes gave people the feeling of flying as the drug was absorbed through the skin.

Apologies if I have some of this wrong.

205 realwest  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:20:00pm

Well y'all I'd like to stay and play some more, but I gotta get some sleep.
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

206 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:20:01pm

AIG is an acronym for AnswersInGenesis a YEC (Young Earth Creationist) site.

207 MandyManners  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:21:30pm

re: #182 Noam Sayin'

The Lizard who dissed you last night got deleted at No. 25.

208 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:21:56pm

re: #197 redc1c4

never had another knock as long as i lived there.

Thats the whole point of out-crazying them. They don't come back. Hiding behind the curtains pretending you're not there is dumb.

209 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:22:16pm

re: #205 realwest

Well y'all I'd like to stay and play some more, but I gotta get some sleep.
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

Night, rw...

210 zombie  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:22:40pm

re: #203 Dianna

It is done!

You had a perfectly good opportunity to say "So mote it be!" and you squandered it.

211 MandyManners  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:22:49pm

re: #208 Mich-again

Thats the whole point of out-crazying them. They don't come back. Hiding behind the curtains pretending you're not there is dumb.

Why not just open the door naked while holding a spatula?

212 ggt  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:23:28pm

re: #195 bosforus

Democracy wins!

very kool!

213 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:23:29pm

re: #204 swamprat

Wode was used as a stupefying drug. Sacrifices stayed put and brooms used as big brushes gave people the feeling of flying as the drug was absorbed through the skin.

Apologies if I have some of this wrong.

You do!

Woad is a dye; you're thinking belladonna.

And, btw, that probably wasn't actually used by much of anyone, either. Belladonna's primary use was to dilate the pupils. It was considered sexy.

Remember, there were magicians and sorcerers, and hedge-doctors (mostly female herbalists). What there weren't, were "covens" of "witches."

214 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:23:35pm

re: #206 Salamantis

Thanks for the explanation. I thought AIG was a financial institution or something like that.

215 Erik The Red  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:24:24pm

I posted this a few weeks ago. I still lmao every time I think about it. Enjoy
Diary of a snow shoveler

Dear Diary...

December 8 - 6:00 PM. It started to snow. The first snow of the season and the wife and I took our cocktails and sat for hours by the window watching the huge soft flakes drift down from heaven. It looked like a Grandma Moses Print. So romantic we felt like newlyweds again. I love snow!

December 9 - We woke to a beautiful blanket of crystal white snow covering every inch of the landscape. What a fantastic sight! Can there be a more lovely place in the Whole World? Moving here was the best idea I've ever had. Shoveled for the first time in years and felt like a boy again. I did both our driveway and the sidewalks. This afternoon the snowplow came along and covered up the sidewalks and closed in the driveway, so I got to shovel again. What a perfect life.

December 12 - The sun has melted all our lovely snow. Such a disappointment. My neighbor tells me not to worry, we'll definitely have a white Christmas. No snow on Christmas would be awful! Bob says we'll have so much snow by the end of winter, that I'll never want to see snow again. l don't think that's possible. Bob is such a nice man, I'm glad he's our neighbor.

December 14 - Snow lovely snow! 8" last night. The temperature dropped to -20. The cold makes everything sparkle so. The wind took my breath away, but I warmed up by shoveling the driveway and sidewalks. This is the life! The snowplow came back this afternoon and buried everything again. I didn't realize I would have to do quite this much shoveling, but I'll certainly get back in shape this way. I wish l wouldn't huff and puff so.

December 15 - 20 inches forecast. Sold my van and bought a 4x4 Blazer. Bought snow tires for the wife's car and 2 extra shovels. Stocked the freezer. The wife wants a wood stove in case the electricity goes out. I think that's silly. We aren't in Alaska, after all.

December 16 - Ice storm this morning. Fell on my ass on the ice in the driveway putting down salt. Hurt like hell. The wife laughed for an hour, Which I think was very cruel.

December 17 - Still way below freezing. Roads are too icy to go anywhere. Electricity was off for 5 hours. I had to pile the blankets on to stay warm. Nothing to do but stare at the wife and try not to irritate her. Guess I should've bought a wood stove, but won't admit it to her. God I hate it when she's right. I can't believe I'm freezing to death in my own living room.

December 20 - Electricity's back on, but had another 14" of the damn stuff last night. More shoveling. Took all day. Goddamn snowplow came by twice. Tried to find a neighbor kid to shovel, but they said they're too busy playing hockey. I think they're lying. Called the only hardware store around to see about buying a snow
blower and they're out. Might have another shipment in March. I think they're lying. Bob says I have to shovel or the city will have it done and bill me. I think he's lying.
cont...

216 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:24:26pm

re: #204 swamprat

To whom would you be apologizing?

Thanks for the info.

217 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:24:28pm

re: #211 MandyManners

Why not just open the door naked while holding a spatula?

Ha. When I tried that, they came back next week!

218 Erik The Red  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:24:43pm

December 22 - Bob was right about a white Christmas because 13 more inches of the white sh#t fell today, and it's so cold it probably won't melt till August. Took me 45 minutes to get all dressed up to go out to shovel and then I had to pee. By the time I got undressed, peed and dressed again. I was too tired to shovel. Tried to hire Bob who has a plow on his truck for the rest of the winter; but he says he's too busy. I think the bugger is lying.

December 23 - Only 2" of snow today. And it warmed up to 0. The wife wanted me to decorate the front of the house this morning. What is she nuts! Why didn't she tell me to do that a month ago? She says she did but I think she's lying.

December 24 - 6". Snow packed so hard by snowplow, l broke the shovel. Thought I was having a heart attack. If I ever catch the s.o.b who drives that snow plow I'll drag him through the snow by his ankles and beat him to death with my broken shovel. I know he hides around the corner and waits for me to finish
shoveling and then he comes down the street at a 100 miles an hour and throws snow all over where I've just been! Tonight the wife wanted me to sing Christmas carols with her and open our presents, but I was too busy watching for the damn snowplow.

December 25 - Merry frigging Christmas! 20 more inches of the damn slop tonight. Snowed in. The idea of shoveling makes my blood boil. God I hate the snow! Then the snowplow driver came by asking for a donation and I hit him over the head with my shovel. The wife says I have a bad attitude. I think shes a fricking idiot. If I have to watch "It's A Wondeful Life" one more time, I'm going to stuff her into the microwave.

December 26 - Still snowed in. Why the hell did I ever move here? It was all HER idea. She's really getting on my nerves.

December 27 - Temperature dropped to -30 and the pipes froze, plumber came after 14 hours of waiting for him, he only charged me 1,400 to replace all my pipes.

December 28 - Warmed up to above -20. Still snowed in. THE BITCH is driving me crazy!

December 29 - 10 more inches. Bob says I have to shovel the roof or it could cave in. That's the silliest thing I ever heard. How dumb does he think I am?

December 30 - Roof caved in. I beat up the snow plow driver and he is now suing me for a million dollars not only the beating I gave him but also for trying to shove the broken snow shovel up his ass. The wife went home to her mother. 9" predicted.

December 31 - I set fire to what's left of the house. No more shoveling.

January 8 - Feel so good. I just love those little white pills they keep giving me. Why am I tied to the bed?

219 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:24:50pm

re: #208 Mich-again

Thats the whole point of out-crazying them. They don't come back. Hiding behind the curtains pretending you're not there is dumb.

How about just not answering the door? Here we have both the JW's and LDS that do a lot of door knocking.

220 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:25:03pm

re: #210 zombie

You had a perfectly good opportunity to say "So mote it be!" and you squandered it.

Salamantis could have, but I was merely responding. Though I'm sure I've forgotten some ritual phrase. It's been years.

221 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:25:53pm

re: #219 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

How about just not answering the door?

It depends on how bored you are I guess.

222 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:26:19pm

re: #192 jaunte

I would think the best way to get people in the door is offer a good product. Cincinnati is larger than Omaha, yet the Doorly zoo continues to add more and more features. The reason why a smaller city is able to do this is through a superior product. Makes it much easier to get people in the door and raise funds with corporate deep pockets than any half-assed zoo will ever get. (I don't know if the Cinci zoo is half-assed, I'm just speaking generally at this point.)

223 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:28:22pm

re: #221 Mich-again

It depends on how bored you are I guess.

Maybe they should send hot babes to do their "recruiting".

224 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:29:13pm

Yee Haa Yaa Hee
Merry Meet and Blessed Be!

Chrck yer email Goddess Lizard
Sent ya something for yer gizzard!

225 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:29:47pm

I'm walking the dogs. Back shortly.

Don't stage a riot without me, all right?

226 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:30:05pm

re: #218 Erik The Red

That is just too funny! I totally relate!

227 MandyManners  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:30:15pm

Nighty-night, Lizards!

228 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:30:25pm

re: #207 MandyManners

The Lizard who dissed you last night got deleted at No. 25.

He was a prick, anyway.

Still haven't heard from Picaro on why he up-dinged that childish comment.

We're even, dude. I down-dinged a comment of yours on the last thread that I'd normally up-ding - just to prove a point.

No time to go into it tonight. I'm hitting the pistol range in the morning.

Heading to bed soon, y'all.

229 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:30:56pm

re: #228 Noam Sayin'

He was a prick, anyway.

Still haven't heard from Picaro on why he up-dinged that childish comment.

We're even, dude. I down-dinged a comment of yours on the last thread that I'd normally up-ding - just to prove a point.

No time to go into it tonight. I'm hitting the pistol range in the morning.

Heading to bed soon, y'all.

With what?

230 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:31:16pm

re: #229 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

With what?

His blankie?

231 ggt  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:31:41pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

When I lived in Cinci ALL their sites of interest were well used by the population. The thing about Cinci is that every attraction is no more than 20-30 minutes away from wherever you are. You can take the kids to the zoo for an hour and then go to lunch or whatever. Not like in Chicago or other areas where it is a whole day event. Everyone with kids has an annual pass to the zoo and when you are there there are lots of strollers and little kids around.

232 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:31:49pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

The reason why a smaller city is able to do this is through a superior product.

One example is how the Toledo Zoo is a much better experience than the Detroit Zoo. Not even close. Same for their art museum. I had been to the Detroit Art Museum 20 times before we went to Toledo's Museum to see a van Gogh exhibit a few years back and I was just blown away by what was on display there.

233 gmsc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:32:08pm

re: #227 MandyManners

Nighty-night, Lizards!

Night, Mandy!

234 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:32:41pm

re: #230 Wishing

His blankie?

I meant what is he hitting the pistol range with?

235 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:32:57pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

I would think the best way to get people in the door is offer a good product. Cincinnati is larger than Omaha, yet the Doorly zoo continues to add more and more features. The reason why a smaller city is able to do this is through a superior product. Makes it much easier to get people in the door and raise funds with corporate deep pockets than any half-assed zoo will ever get. (I don't know if the Cinci zoo is half-assed, I'm just speaking generally at this point.)


The Cincy zoo is not half-assed. They are a well respected zoo that has a cutting edge breeding (not breading) program. I spent many summers from high school to early college learning there. The Fesival of lights is nothing more than a fund raising program.

236 Steve Rogers  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:33:03pm

Talk about a deal not being designed intelligently!

237 gmsc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:33:24pm

Pinup Bettie Page hospitalized after heart attack

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Bettie Page, a 1950s pinup known for her raven-haired bangs and saucy come-hither looks, was hospitalized in intensive care after suffering a heart attack, her agent said Friday.

"She's critically ill," Mark Roesler of CMG Worldwide told The Associated Press.
He said the 85-year-old had been hospitalized for the last three weeks with pneumonia and was about to be released when she had the heart attack Tuesday. Page was transferred to another hospital in Los Angeles and remained in intensive care Friday.

A family friend, Todd Mueller, said Page was in a coma. When asked to confirm, Roesler said, "I would not deny that," but he would not comment further on her condition.

Page, a secretary turned model, is credited with helping set the stage for the sexual revolution of the rebellious 1960s. She attracted national attention with magazine photographs of her sensuous figure that were tacked up on walls across the country.

Her photos included a centerfold in the January 1955 issue of then-fledgling Playboy magazine, as well as controversial sadomasochistic poses.

Page later spent decades away from the public eye, and during that time battled mental illness and became a born-again Christian.

After resurfacing in the 1990s, she occasionally granted interviews but refused to allow her picture to be taken.

Mueller credits his business dealings with Page for bringing her out of seclusion. He said he first met her in 1989 when he offered her "a bunch of money" to show up at autograph signings.

"I probably sold 3,000 of her autographs, usually for $200 to $300," he said. "Eleanor Roosevelt, we got $40-$50. ... Bettie Page outsells them all."

238 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:33:34pm

re: #234 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

I meant what is he hitting the pistol range with?

Ahh! I wont get back to the range til spring, the way things look here, weather-wise. And i have two new toys to play with!

239 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:33:35pm

re: #227 MandyManners

Nighty-night, Lizards!

Bye MM...

240 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:33:50pm

re: #223 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

Maybe they should send hot babes to do their "recruiting".

That would probably work better than frumpy grandmas in their Walmart dresses.

241 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:34:03pm

For anyone who goes to Toronto with their kids and/or grandkids? The Toronto Zoo was our favorite. We were there a lot when the kids were with us.

I cannot count all the times we have been to the Bronx Zoo over the years, as The Bronx is not that far from us, but it just is not as good, IMHO...and my 3 little grandkids, the 2-year old included, go there at least 3 or 3 times over the school vacation in the summer.

It is also excellent, though, but I haven't been able to go with the kids when they do...can't walk very much.

Now the best part is when the kids come here after the zoo, and I get their reports. ;)

242 jaunte  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:34:17pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

Yes, it takes commitment and talent from the people involved. Zoos don't pay much to their marketing people, and if they don't have a strong and talented hands-on leader to give them some guidance, these kinds of screwups happen.

243 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:34:52pm

re: #188 Thanos

G'nite, Thanos.

Sweet dreams!

244 DistantThunder  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:34:57pm

Sounds like it was trying to form a parasitical attachment to the zoo.

245 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:35:20pm

re: #223 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

Maybe they should send hot babes to do their "recruiting".

Jehovah's Witnesses work in teams of two (as mentioned in the NT), and they are taught to dress modestly. They are not into trying to interest anyone in the organization by using "baiting" methods.

Not answering the door does not preclude them from returning. It is the mission of every local Kingdom Hall to visit EVERY household in their territory at least twice a year (or more).

Bethel in Brooklyn makes out the territory for all the Kingdom Halls across the planet.

246 jaunte  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:35:35pm

Time to crash. Goodnight all.

247 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:36:06pm

re: #238 Wishing

Ahh! I wont get back to the range til spring, the way things look here, weather-wise. And i have two new toys to play with!

You could go Elvis and shoot out a TV or three!

248 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:36:25pm

re: #240 Mich-again

That would probably work better than frumpy grandmas in their Walmart dresses.

Harrrumph! *Cough* *Cough*

249 swamprat  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:36:43pm

re: #213 Dianna

Quick research shows that indigo was slandered as a drug, and woad safe. But I read reports of woad being used as a drug. I can only surmise the terms were either confused or interchangeable.

Thanks for the info.


update;
Here is more than I was looking for. Shows and corrects several misconceptions.

250 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:37:14pm

re: #246 jaunte

G'nite, Jaunte,

Sweet dreams!

251 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:37:33pm

re: #248 NY Nana

Ha. Sorry about any collateral damage there. Iron Fist rule. Mout.

252 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:37:57pm

Moonbats don't make very good pagans. The Four Powers of the Mage are to Know, to Will, to Dare, and to Keep Silent. They've got 2 and 3 down, but they don't know shit and they'll NEVER learn to keep silent!

253 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:38:19pm

re: #210 zombie

You had a perfectly good opportunity to say "So mote it be!" and you squandered it.

is that a mote in your eye?

254 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:38:28pm

re: #247 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

You could go Elvis and shoot out a TV or three!

I have sure thought about shooting out my back door, *just to try it* ya know?
.45 makes to big of a pop though, so I will try to be patient.

255 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:39:11pm

re: #211 MandyManners

Why not just open the door naked while holding a spatula?

that's me, knocking on your door...

256 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:39:37pm

re: #232 Mich-again

One of the drawbacks to the Doorly zoo is that there's so much to see, you really kind of need two days if you want to take it all in. Otherwise, it's best to have a game plan and know what you want to look at.

Detroit just sounds like a mess from everything I've heard. At some point you'd think rock bottom would be hit so things could start improving. Hope for your sake it's soon.

257 Moody Leo  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:39:44pm

OT since there have Sci-Fi references [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

258 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:40:54pm

re: #257 Moody Leo

OT since there have Sci-Fi references [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

He looks creepy.

259 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:41:07pm

re: #251 Mich-again

Ha. Sorry about any collateral damage there.

ROTFL! I have not yet been to a Wally World, BTW!

No collateral damage...I would rather be a grumpy old lady and here on LGF, than the alternative, 6 ft. under ;)!

260 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:41:25pm

re: #235 Neo Con since 9-11

I haven't seen the Cinci zoo, so that's why I added the line about not knowing the situation there. I'm glad to hear the zoo does well.

261 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:42:08pm

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

They built a church right down the road from where I live. That was something to see! The Amish would be jealous. They put that thing up in like two freakin' days! From what I heard, JW's from all over show up to help. If the WTC in NYC had been owned by the JW's, about 3 months after 9-11 it would have been rebuilt.

262 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:42:12pm
263 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:42:24pm

re: #155 Noam Sayin'

Excellent video. Got one for a Taurus 9mm PT111 Millennium Pro?

Not for me, of course. While that vid was playing, I stripped and reassembled mine in 90 seconds (down to the barrel and back).

Sound like you could.

How to disassemble (field strip) Taurus "Millennium Pro" pistols: 1) remove the magazine by pressing the magazine release button; 2) check that the chamber is empty; 3) pull the slide all the way back and lock it open with the slide lock / release lever; 4) rotate the takedown lever (located at the left side of the frame) clockwise until it stops; 5) carefully pull the take-down lever with its pin out of the frame 6) carefully release the slide stop lever, then push the slide all the way forward and out of the frame; 7) remove the return spring by pushing its head slightly forward and then pulling it out carefully of the detent in the barrel; 7) lift up the barrel from the slide.
Reassemble in reverse order.

/not delving deeply into sub-mechanisms or maybe they're just designed not to allow it

264 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:42:42pm

re: #259 NY Nana

ROTFL! I have not yet been to a Wally World, BTW!

No collateral damage...I would rather be a grumpy old lady and here on LGF, than the alternative, 6 ft. under ;)!

GASP! You have never been to Wally World? You may be the opnly one in America in that condition!
BTW..was it you who told me about Scheisshaus Luck? (the book)

265 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:43:13pm

re: #219 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

How about just not answering the door? Here we have both the JW's and LDS that do a lot of door knocking.

because the best defense is a good offense.

266 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:43:54pm

re: #234 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

I meant what is he hitting the pistol range with?

I have a Taurus PT 111 Milennium Pro 9mm (AKA, TundraSage), and a Walther PPK(AKA, RealTundra). Pretty sure I'll take both.

I have to work on my grip, which I may as well do on both of them. While I'm hitting far more bulls than I have in the past, I still have a tendency to point down and to the left, which, for a right-handed shooter means I'm typically squeezing my fingertips too hard on the grip. I've been practicing a readjustment of my grip tonight.

Might take my blankie, too. ;)

267 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:44:33pm

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

We have a JW familiy next door. Weirdest people ever. They live to think that other people are 'other'. Six children. The Fat Beagle and I got locked out of the house the other day (don't ask). They gave me a yellow pages book to find a locksmith but would not invite me in to stay warm ( it was about 40 degrees). This is after we have taken care of all 6 kids when they have been locked out - very, very strange. We bought them a hoop so they could shoot some balls - and the kids have made it ver clear they hat us for it.

268 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:44:52pm

re: #227 MandyManners

Nighty-night, Lizards!

G'night, Mandy.

*pat*

269 Erik The Red  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:46:42pm

re: #262 jcm

One false move... and disaster!

I wonder how many hours went into making that? I would be pissed. The artists seemed to handle it OK though.

270 Moody Leo  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:47:17pm

re: #258 Wishing
LOL, if you're really into Sci-Fi you would have heard and read about the large amount of Sci-Fi memoribilia and his Museum and read some of the mags he edited. I know some people that might rival his museum but they only stuck to one part of that genre.

271 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:47:39pm

re: #266 Noam Sayin'

Take a deep breath and hold it right before pulling the trigger.

272 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:47:41pm

re: #269 Erik The Red

I wonder how many hours went into making that? I would be pissed. The artists seemed to handle it OK though.

I think they knew they were on the edge of stability.

273 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:47:56pm

re: #252 Salamantis

Moonbats don't make very good pagans. The Four Powers of the Mage are to Know, to Will, to Dare, and to Keep Silent. They've got 2 and 3 down, but they don't know shit and they'll NEVER learn to keep silent!

A sad and sorry truth.

I got your email, btw. I will actually read it in the morning.

But once I've cleaned the house, I'm going seriously anti-social and writing, so I fear I won't have much to say.

Unless I have to write a difficult scene, in which case, I'll probably respond at boring length.

274 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:48:39pm

re: #263 Killian Bundy

Your google-fu is quite amazing.

True, that item is quite easy to break down, and designed for that bit only. The rest of the mechanism is best left to your gunsmith.

I can strip and reassemble the PPK in under five seconds, which is only a credit to its design.

275 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:49:10pm

re: #263 Killian Bundy

/not delving deeply into sub-mechanisms or maybe they're just designed not to allow it

sounds like a Beretta 92.

276 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:49:21pm

re: #261 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

They built a church right down the road from where I live. That was something to see! The Amish would be jealous. They put that thing up in like two freakin' days! From what I heard, JW's from all over show up to help. If the WTC in NYC had been owned by the JW's, about 3 months after 9-11 it would have been rebuilt.

Yes. They call those "two day wonders." And let me tell you, it is done for both practical reasons and public relations. All the blueprints are designed by architects at Bethel (HQ in Brooklyn), and all the materials are purchased, and some pre-fabbed, right down to the amount of nail and screws needed.

Witnesses from near by states will all converge and they will erect the Kingdom Hall in two days.

All Kingdom Halls are mortgaged to the congregations from Bethel, and the local congregants pay the mortgage.

And they are called Kingdom Halls because they don't want anyone to confuse them with "churches" which is part of apostate Christendom.

277 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:49:36pm

re: #273 Dianna

A sad and sorry truth.

I got your email, btw. I will actually read it in the morning.

But once I've cleaned the house, I'm going seriously anti-social and writing, so I fear I won't have much to say.

Unless I have to write a difficult scene, in which case, I'll probably respond at boring length.

No Problemo. It's all good! hehe

278 BignJames  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:50:05pm

re: #271 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

Take a deep breath and hold it right before pulling the trigger.

You're joking? Right?

279 swamprat  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:51:30pm

re: #216 Noam Sayin'

To whom would you be apologizing?

Thanks for the info.

To those reading that take this very seriously, and perform the kind of research that involves more than buying a seven dollar book, and running around going; "so mote it be", "and blessed be".
People who learn other languages, and can tell you about the similarities and differences between German, and British Celts.
I am asking the real scholars not to laugh at me...


and you are most certainly welcome, Noam.

280 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:51:32pm

re: #278 BignJames

You're joking? Right?

Take a breath, hold it while sighting, exhale slowly while gently squeezing the trigger.

Or so I was told, lo, these many years ago.

281 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:51:46pm

re: #275 redc1c4

sounds like a Beretta 92.

I picked up a High Standard Compact 1911 the other day..you need a special TOOL to break it down! Arrgghhh...
Kimber;s idea, for petes sake!

282 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:52:27pm

re: #278 BignJames

You're joking? Right?

Nope, that is good advice!

283 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:52:55pm

re: #281 Wishing

I picked up a High Standard Compact 1911 the other day..you need a special TOOL to break it down! Arrgghhh...
Kimber;s idea, for petes sake!

Kimber's idea was that the retaining nut let you have a much stiffer spring, so the recoil uptake was better.

It does work. But how I hate that wrench-like item!

284 BryanS  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:53:11pm

re: #170 gmsc

That rediscovery site is a hoot. Under the section of the "theory of gravity":

"The universe is tuned.

The moon rotates on its axis but at the same time always presents the same comforting face to us, gazing up from earth. Little Willie Dembski has calculated the chances of that happening at random and it is exactly 1 in 15 septdecillion. That exceeds the probabombastic resources of the universe, proving the intervention of an intelligent agent..."

285 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:53:24pm
286 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:53:26pm

re: #283 Dianna

Kimber's idea was that the retaining nut let you have a much stiffer spring, so the recoil uptake was better.

It does work. But how I hate that wrench-like item!

I refuse to buy one, will modify a paper clip instead.

287 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:53:36pm

If they're Black Bloc, follow Liddy's advice...;~)

288 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:54:11pm

re: #261 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

If the WTC in NYC had been owned by the JW's, about 3 months after 9-11 it would have been rebuilt.

That hurts. There is no comparison, and the time taken to recover so many bodies has not yet stopped. I will not describe what they still look for, and where.

Ground Zero has no equal in the world, and I pray with all my heart that there will never, ever be another equivalent of 9/11 anywhere on this earth. Never.

For those who live in NY, and the suburbs, and in other States and countries, who had family and/or friends working there, and in the area around it, that also was destroyed, this nightmare is still ongoing, 7 years later.

My husband and I have not been in Manhattan since...we had kids and a daughter in law working in Manhattan that day...thank G-d they were not harmed, but emotionally? They will always remember. Waiting to hear from them? It seemed like days...and time stood still.

289 BignJames  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:54:17pm

re: #280 Dianna

Never hold your breath, your vision begins to deteriorate immediatly.

290 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:54:45pm

re: #276 Walter L. Newton

I was impressive to watch. I'll give them credit for that. Why the public relations angle, though? So it doesn't into a drawn out project might piss off therer neighbors?

291 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:54:54pm

re: #267 wahabicorridor

We have a JW familiy next door. Weirdest people ever. They live to think that other people are 'other'. Six children. The Fat Beagle and I got locked out of the house the other day (don't ask). They gave me a yellow pages book to find a locksmith but would not invite me in to stay warm ( it was about 40 degrees). This is after we have taken care of all 6 kids when they have been locked out - very, very strange. We bought them a hoop so they could shoot some balls - and the kids have made it ver clear they hat us for it.

Like any group, there are different levels of the way members will deal with the "outside" world. I have know some Witnesses who you could barely tell them from any other person you work with, and them I have know members who keep very apart from non-Witnesses.

No, I don't support them anymore, they have a large problem with their leadership (in my opinion), but at the same time, most (not all) of what they do is harmless, and is similar to the Amish and some other pacifist sects.

Their theology is mainly pre-nicene, which upsets a lot of other Christian sects.

292 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:55:37pm

re: #264 Wishing

GASP! You have never been to Wally World? You may be the opnly one in America in that condition!
BTW..was it you who told me about Scheisshaus Luck? (the book)

NY Nana Did u see this?

293 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:56:08pm

In karate, you kiai when you punch. Think of your breath during your trigger squeezing as a soft, slow-motion kiai. The same rule applies when you release an arrow.

294 BignJames  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:56:15pm

re: #282 Wishing

From whom...you should be relaxed while shooting/sighting...holding your breath ain't relaxing.

295 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:56:40pm

I think Charles should open the Museum of Creationist Evolution, where the evolving techniques of deception and obfuscation intended to end rationality in the life sciences is placed on display.

296 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:56:53pm

re: #290 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

I was impressive to watch. I'll give them credit for that. Why the public relations angle, though? So it doesn't into a drawn out project might piss off therer neighbors?

Because they normally get some press or local TV coverage, and they see that as good public relations.

297 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:56:55pm

re: #162 Bobibutu

And LEO is Law Enforcement Officer.

If a cop ever asks you if you are a LEO - they think you are undercover.

Or in Low Earth Orbit, like a GPS satellite.

298 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:56:57pm

re: #286 Wishing

I refuse to buy one, will modify a paper clip instead.

It comes with the gun, and I've not lost it.

The little spring cap? That was once found on the ceiling fan. The spring itself? I once had to pry it from my dog's jaws. The last cat used to hang out when I was cleaning my guns, waiting for a chance to chase a flying spring. The current one thinks break-free is an aphrodisiac.

I like guns. I even enjoy cleaning them. But there are days...

299 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:58:04pm

re: #289 BignJames

Never hold your breath, your vision begins to deteriorate immediatly.

You are right. But I remember that as my instruction.

Granted, that was more years ago than I'm really comfortable contemplating.

300 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:58:20pm

You know, if you're ever in peril holding a hangun, the last thing you're going to think about is your breathing technique.

/just make sure you empty the magazine

301 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:58:53pm

re: #298 Dianna

It comes with the gun, and I've not lost it.

The little spring cap? That was once found on the ceiling fan. The spring itself? I once had to pry it from my dog's jaws. The last cat used to hang out when I was cleaning my guns, waiting for a chance to chase a flying spring. The current one thinks break-free is an aphrodisiac.

I like guns. I even enjoy cleaning them. But there are days...

Well the gun I got (High Standard) is now made in the Philipines...Not the same as days gone by. lol
And they 1. dont include the tool
2. give NO directions on how to break down the compact, I had to go to a 1911 forum to find the info.

302 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:59:01pm

Pointing is rude, but so is shooting someone...so don't forget to point.

303 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 10:59:51pm

re: #299 Dianna

You are right. But I remember that as my instruction.

Granted, that was more years ago than I'm really comfortable contemplating.

I don't like guns. I have no problem with them, I know how to use one, I've done my share of sport shooting in the past, but I wouldn't have one, not for any reason.

304 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:00:07pm

re: #271 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

Yeah, I'm doing that, with pretty good results. I have a chart that shows off-target hit errors and possible explanations thereof. Given my preponderance of low-left shots, it's likely a finger-tip squeeze on my grip-hand.

I came across this video a while back that has me practicing a slightly different, but better grip. The first few seconds shows Todd Jarrett executing the grip perfectly, then he goes into detail on how to perform it.

Just slightly different than what a novice like myself might envision. But I think it might help my crummy spread.

305 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:00:17pm

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

I don't like guns. I have no problem with them, I know how to use one, I've done my share of sport shooting in the past, but I wouldn't have one, not for any reason.

Why is that, Walter?

306 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:00:22pm

re: #264 Wishing

GASP! You have never been to Wally World? You may be the opnly one in America in that condition!
BTW..was it you who told me about Scheisshaus Luck? (the book)

I just saw your post! Sorry I missed it, but I type very slooowly, honest!

Can you hear me now?

Never, ever! Will I get a medal for that? ;)

Not me, re the book...

307 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:00:35pm

re: #301 Wishing

Oh!

Well, that's just weird.

I love my Kimber, as you've probably noted.

308 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:01:08pm

re: #304 Noam Sayin'

Yeah, I'm doing that, with pretty good results. I have a chart that shows off-target hit errors and possible explanations thereof. Given my preponderance of low-left shots, it's likely a finger-tip squeeze on my grip-hand.

I came across this video a while back that has me practicing a slightly different, but better grip. The first few seconds shows Todd Jarrett executing the grip perfectly, then he goes into detail on how to perform it.

Just slightly different than what a novice like myself might envision. But I think it might help my crummy spread.

Thanks for that link Noam!

309 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:01:13pm

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

Different people, different ways of doing things.

310 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:02:06pm

re: #306 NY Nana

I just saw your post! Sorry I missed it, but I type very slooowly, honest!

Can you hear me now?

Never, ever! Will I get a medal for that? ;)

Not me, re the book...

Ok thanks...I have completely forgotten who recommended it. It was excellent, BTW, about an atheist who survives the camps.

311 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:02:07pm

re: #305 Wishing

Why is that, Walter?

Because I don't want one. I think every law abiding citizen should be able to have one, more than one, if they want one. I am totally pro-gun, I just don't want one myself.

312 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:02:36pm

re: #293 Salamantis

In karate, you kiai when you punch. Think of your breath during your trigger squeezing as a soft, slow-motion kiai. The same rule applies when you release an arrow.

/what's your discipline?

313 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:02:42pm

re: #307 Dianna

Oh!

Well, that's just weird.

I love my Kimber, as you've probably noted.

Kimber is just too pricey, tho I have my share of Sigs...and waiting to get just ONE more! LOLOL

314 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:03:01pm

re: #312 Killian Bundy

/what's your discipline?

Tae Kwan Do.

315 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:04:02pm

On my wish list is the Sig Mosquito, for plinking. Next week maybe!

316 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:04:26pm

re: #304 Noam Sayin'

I'll check that video at work. Hopefully, my boss won't worry too much.

The biggest thing I found, when I came back to shooting about ten years ago, was to assume a forward stance. The other thing, which I picked up from my brother, was to find out which eye is dominant. Fortunately, I'm left handed and left eyed. We're still working with my Male, because he's right handed but left eyed. We've changed his stance, we've changed his grip, and we're still working it out.

At this point, we're agreed, I take the gun, he grabs the sword.

317 jcm  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:04:41pm

re: #289 BignJames

Never hold your breath, your vision begins to deteriorate immediatly.

Breathing bounce the muzzle slightly, with a controlled intake and release the muzzle comes down on the target smoother.

When you do it the same way every time. The training starts to build muscle memory. When then when you are in that OH SHIT situation and you draw and fire that little bit sticks, it all happens automatically.

318 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:05:29pm

re: #309 Dianna

Different people, different ways of doing things.

Right. But why do I feel because I don't want one, I'm going to get slammed. It's happened to me before when I have brought this up. Not here, but in person, with people I know.

It's as if it's not enough that I agree with gun ownership, I have had folks treat me like some kind of wimp because I don't own one.

Honestly, I know how to use one, grew up with them in Northern New Jersey, did a lot of sports shooting in Pennsylvania, growing up there were always guns in the house.

But why isn't it ok for me not to want one?

319 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:05:32pm

re: #313 Wishing

Now, that's a familiar story! I'm the same way.

320 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:05:34pm

re: #307 Dianna

Oh!

Well, that's just weird.

I love my Kimber, as you've probably noted.


here's something with a bit more stopping power...

even if it is just a single shot. %-)

321 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:05:41pm

re: #314 Salamantis

Tae Kwan Do.

/belt?

322 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:05:59pm

re: #314 Salamantis

I'm hapkido.

323 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:06:31pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

/belt?

Red

324 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:06:51pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

It's more than OK with me. I don't think you're a wimp for not wanting one, either.

325 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:07:02pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

Right. But why do I feel because I don't want one, I'm going to get slammed. It's happened to me before when I have brought this up. Not here, but in person, with people I know.

It's as if it's not enough that I agree with gun ownership, I have had folks treat me like some kind of wimp because I don't own one.

Honestly, I know how to use one, grew up with them in Northern New Jersey, did a lot of sports shooting in Pennsylvania, growing up there were always guns in the house.

But why isn't it ok for me not to want one?

I think it is perfectly OK for you not to have one. Each person does what is right for them. Guns are the same. We are free to have em OR not have em. I applaud your choice, just as you applaud mine.

326 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:07:18pm

It goes white yellow green red black.

327 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:07:23pm

re: #313 Wishing

Kimber is just too pricey, tho I have my share of Sigs...and waiting to get just ONE more! LOLOL

i have 2 1930's vintage Colt 1911A1's... imported to SA back in the day, then returned to the US...

cost me about what a Kimber or similar would.

/good enough

328 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:07:33pm

re: #316 Dianna

I'm right handed and left eyed... I figured that might be an issue for me if I ever got into guns, but the limited shooting I did do, I was a pretty accurate shot.

329 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:07:34pm

re: #320 redc1c4

Tell me that's not the .76 caliber? I can't open your link.

330 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:08:51pm

re: #329 Dianna

Tell me that's not the .76 caliber? I can't open your link.

60 cal owwie

331 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:09:09pm

re: #326 Salamantis

It goes white yellow green red black.

/yeah, I know that without even having to Google

332 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:10:15pm

re: #326 Salamantis

It goes white yellow green red black.

My school is: white, white w/stripe, blue, blue w/stripe, green, green w/stripe, red, red w/stripe, black.

Though the Major doesn't actually give you first dan mark until he's really happy with your proficiency as an assistant.

333 ggt  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:10:31pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

It's fine, Walter. I am not a shooter either. I do, however, love the history. Armed Citizenry and a Free Citizenry go hand-in-hand, from what I've learned. So, 2nd Amendment issues are a hot button for me.

For me, it boils down to individual choice. As you, I believe in that choice and have exercised it. I won't stand for anyone to legislate that choice away.

334 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:10:55pm

re: #328 Sharmuta

I'm right handed and left eyed... I figured that might be an issue for me if I ever got into guns, but the limited shooting I did do, I was a pretty accurate shot.

That's good. Accuracy above all.

335 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:11:58pm

re: #330 Wishing

60 cal owwie

Don't tell me...idiot with mortar, fired from hip?

I heard about that!

336 Sloppy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:12:05pm

Sharmuta --

Many thanks for appreciating our wondrous Henry Doorly Zoo. I've met the director, Dr. Lee Simmons, one of the smartest people I ever knew. I used to work for Mr. Doorly; he was nobody's fool, either. We grow 'em pretty sharp in Omaha.

337 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:12:32pm

re: #332 Dianna

My school is: white, white w/stripe, blue, blue w/stripe, green, green w/stripe, red, red w/stripe, black.

Though the Major doesn't actually give you first dan mark until he's really happy with your proficiency as an assistant.

I never took my black test because I didn't wanna have to deal with the legal ramifications.

338 Wishing  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:12:34pm

Gnite lizards..I am off to watch the link Noam posted.
Remember: buy ammo! Price is only going UP

339 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:13:18pm

re: #296 Walter L. Newton

What made you leave?

340 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:13:26pm

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

That's cool, Walter. What's even more cool is that you're not "copping a 'tude" on those who do.

341 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:14:24pm

re: #337 Salamantis

I never took my black test because I didn't wanna have to deal with the legal ramifications.

/?

342 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:15:28pm

re: #337 Salamantis

I never took my black test because I didn't wanna have to deal with the legal ramifications.

You get a card and you have to tell people you're trained before engaging in a bar fight? I never viewed that as much of a ramification.

Considering that, no matter what, the thug's family will come after you financially if you fight off a mugger, even if you do it quite by accident, I'd get the belt. Then start working for second dan, because then you learn some very interesting take-downs that aren't lethal unless you want them to be.

343 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:15:53pm

re: #341 Killian Bundy

/?

In Florida, if you make black belt, you can be charged with assault with a deadly weapon just for striking someone.

344 NY Nana  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:16:13pm

re: #310 Wishing

I missed that post entirely. I have been posting less than normal...still hurting over what happened in Mumbai..my youngest grandson is only a 3 months older than the toddler, Moishele, who lost his parents HY"D...and all the others who were so brutally massacred by the cult of islam. His screaming 'Ima! Ima! Ima!' (Mummy, in Hebrew) is still with me...

Off to try and sleep. I was running some scans on my 'puter.

G'nite, all! Sweet dreams.

345 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:16:38pm

re: #343 Salamantis

In Florida, if you make black belt, you can be charged with assault with a deadly weapon just for striking someone.

/linky?

346 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:17:06pm

re: #343 Salamantis

In Florida, if you make black belt, you can be charged with assault with a deadly weapon just for striking someone.

Solution: Don't hit 'em. There's a lot of techniques to chose from!

347 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:17:18pm

re: #336 Sloppy

You're welcome. The Henry Doorly zoo is one of my favorite places. They've done Mr. Doorly proud.

348 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:17:32pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

Right. But why do I feel because I don't want one, I'm going to get slammed. It's happened to me before when I have brought this up. Not here, but in person, with people I know.

It's as if it's not enough that I agree with gun ownership, I have had folks treat me like some kind of wimp because I don't own one.

Honestly, I know how to use one, grew up with them in Northern New Jersey, did a lot of sports shooting in Pennsylvania, growing up there were always guns in the house.

But why isn't it ok for me not to want one?

because they're asshats?

you acknowledge the right, but decline to exercise it... that's fine by me.

i had avowedly pacifist cow-orker a few years back that thought i should be disarmed, along with everyone else. no reason for weapons...

right up until her drunk ex-neighbor confused her apartment with the identical one next building over. *then* she wanted me to come down and sleep over, because she was afraid of the dude, and worried that the cops wouldn't get there in time.

i told her she should have the courage of her beliefs and stayed home.

we talked a lot less after that. %-)

349 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:17:54pm

re: #329 Dianna

Tell me that's not the .76 caliber? I can't open your link.

60mm mortar

350 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:17:56pm

re: #345 Killian Bundy

/linky?

Don't have one. It's what my sensei told me. I believed him.

351 Dianna  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:18:22pm

I'm calling it a night. Take care, and stay scaly.

We'll worry about evolving detachable tails tomorrow.

352 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:24:08pm
353 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:25:39pm

re: #320 redc1c4

here's something with a bit more stopping power...

even if it is just a single shot. %-)

/people have broken their hips trying that

354 rawmuse  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:25:56pm

OT, don't know if this has been posted yet, but I thought it was special.

A Different Christmas Poem
The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,
I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,
My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,
Transforming the yard to a winter delight.

The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,
Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,
Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,
So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,
But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the
sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,
And I crept to the door just to see who was near.

Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,
A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,
Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,
Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

"What are you doing?" I asked without fear,
"Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!
Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,
You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"
For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,
Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts..

To the window that danced with a warm fire's light
Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,
I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."
"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,
That separates you from the darkest of times.

No one had to ask or beg or implore me,
I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,"
Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."
My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',
And now it is my turn and so, here I am.

I've not seen my own son in more than a while,
But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.
Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,
The red, white, and blue... an American flag.
I can live through the cold and the being alone,
Away from my family, my house and my home.

I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,
I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
I can carry the weight of killing another,
Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..
Who stand at the front against any and all,
To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."

" So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,
Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
"But isn't there something I can do, at the least,
"Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?
It seems all too little for all that you've done,
For being away from your wife and your son."

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember we fought and we bled.
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."

PLEASE, would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many
people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our
U.S service men and women for our being able to celebrate these
festivities. Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us.

LCDR Jeff Giles, SC, USN
30th Naval Construction Regiment
OIC, Logistics Cell One
Al Taqqadum, Iraq

355 SurferDoc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:28:06pm

re: #304 Noam Sayin'

Yeah, I'm doing that, with pretty good results. I have a chart that shows off-target hit errors and possible explanations thereof. Given my preponderance of low-left shots, it's likely a finger-tip squeeze on my grip-hand.

I came across this video a while back that has me practicing a slightly different, but better grip. The first few seconds shows Todd Jarrett executing the grip perfectly, then he goes into detail on how to perform it.

Just slightly different than what a novice like myself might envision. But I think it might help my crummy spread.

Low-left hits may mean you are "pushing" your shots, i.e. anticipating the recoil and pushing against it.

356 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:29:00pm

re: #353 Killian Bundy

/people have broken their hips trying that

/and many knees

357 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:29:07pm

re: #353 Killian Bundy

/people have broken their hips trying that

he was using the sling, as the audio indicates, not trying to brace it...

/crazy, not stupid, evidently

358 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:30:12pm

re: #326 Salamantis

It goes white yellow green red black.

In the Song Moo Kwan (ever youthful house of martial arts training) school, it's:

White
Yellow
Gold
Green
Blue
Purple
Brown
Red
Red w/black stripe (a secondary step)
Black

That was under one of my instructors, Grand Master, Hee Sang Ro, the son of the one of the few remaining founders of the Song Moo Kwon school of Tae Kwon do.

Under Grand Master Moo Yong Yun, it was:

no belt
White
Yellow
Green
Blue
Purple
Purple trim (a secondary step)
Brown
Red
Black

Both master instructors (sa bum nims, in Korean) were childhood friends. Grand Master Ro, is the son of Byun Jik Ro, the Supreme Grand Master of the Song Moo Kwan school.

To this day, I'm immensely proud of my black belt, achieved on August 11, 2001, in a solo audition before Grand Master Ro and Master (now 5th degree grand master) Mike Stein.

I'm proud of all of you who train for that black belt, and wish you encouragement. It will be one incredibly satisfying day.

Pil sung!

359 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:31:05pm

I believe in God. Do I believe in creationism? I don't know...I don't really care to think about it. I learn and study evolution in school...I don't get irritated when people talk about it...

Some people might call me stupid for not caring to think about it, but I really have no desire to do so. I'm not going to interpret what the OLD testament means...not all religious people have to be creationists, at least I don't think so. In the end its only based on your own interpretation. Do I have the answers? No.

The way I see it, if there is a God, then there won't be any proof. If there was solid proof, then everybody would be religious. Without proof, you filter out the unfaithful.

At this point I'd like to think we're past a point where we literally consider ourselves "animals." Sure...we're mammals...but no other animal has free will, does it? I'm hopeful that human intelligence, free will, and all that good stuff isn't merely a coincidence.

A lot of atheists cite the violence in the Old Testament as proof that the whole God theory is bogus. "Why would there be violence if God exists? Wouldn't he make everything peaceful." (They're probably thinking about Obama). I thought about it...but really...thats bullshit. Peace everywhere? Sounds like liberal bullshit. Its called free will - the ability to choose between good and evil. Some people choose good, some people choose evil. If God simply made everything peaceful by waving his wand, then that would be too lazy.

On that subject, God itself is often misinterpreted. What really is God? Is it some guy up in the clouds looking down on us? I don't think so...I don't think God is like...someone...no way...but (I don't want to say our conscience) the reason we naturally feel guilty about things - sometimes you refuse to do something because you know its a terrible thing to do even if nobody would ever know you did it. Or what do we do when there is a God pointed to our head? Why do we instinctively start praying to God? No...it's not a physical thing...but "It" exists. Scary, huh?

Anyways, I'm not really in any position not to believe in God. I don't really give a hoot about the Christians, the RoP's, or those awesome Buddhists, but everything in the Jewish Bible is completely valid today. As far as Jewish personality...their enemies, their country, their exile, their conflicts and problems and enemies and their always being a minority and their always being hated and their mind-boggling miracles (I know you like to see magic, but Israel really is a miracle) is all in there.

Honestly though, I'm a little wasted. just a little, though. I can still type pretty well.

360 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:32:56pm

I studied under Jack Motley, who studied under Jhoon Rhee.

361 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:32:58pm

re: #355 SurferDoc

Low-left hits may mean you are "pushing" your shots, i.e. anticipating the recoil and pushing against it.

I'm doing a bit of that, too, which is why I'm eager to get back to the range. I've only shot once since I bought that damned, lovable scooter.

362 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:38:01pm

re: #357 redc1c4

he was using the sling, as the audio indicates, not trying to brace it...

/crazy, not stupid, evidently

/i' m pretty sure you're supposed to unpucker

363 ggt  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:38:44pm

weet dreams all!

364 SurferDoc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:40:31pm

re: #361 Noam Sayin'

I'm doing a bit of that, too, which is why I'm eager to get back to the range. I've only shot once since I bought that damned, lovable scooter.

You might want to try "shooting through" the shot, which is like "hitting through" the ball in baseball. The idea is that once you have your sight picture, concentrate on keeping the front sight on the target as you shoot. You won't be able to keep the front sight on the target, of course, but focusing on that can make some other bad habits go away.

(A little bit of Zen marksmanship, there.)

365 gmsc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:41:48pm

re: #359 traderjoe9

I believe in God. Do I believe in creationism? I don't know...I don't really care to think about it. I learn and study evolution in school...I don't get irritated when people talk about it...

Some people might call me stupid for not caring to think about it, but I really have no desire to do so. I'm not going to interpret what the OLD testament means...not all religious people have to be creationists, at least I don't think so. In the end its only based on your own interpretation. Do I have the answers? No.

It's all in context.

If it's within your interests, then you should think deeply about it.

It it's outside what you need and want to think about, then don't worry about it.

366 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:45:08pm

re: #364 SurferDoc

You might want to try "shooting through" the shot, which is like "hitting through" the ball in baseball. The idea is that once you have your sight picture, concentrate on keeping the front sight on the target as you shoot. You won't be able to keep the front sight on the target, of course, but focusing on that can make some other bad habits go away.

(A little bit of Zen marksmanship, there.)

kind of like with skeet/trap/real animals... you have to keep moving the barrel as you fire.

367 gmsc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:45:12pm

re: #354 rawmuse

OT, don't know if this has been posted yet, but I thought it was special.

A Different Christmas Poem

That's nice.

It's also a lot better than the Christmas poem I posted last night.

368 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:47:01pm
369 stevieray  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:47:53pm

I got my new toy today -- a 22 inch monitor. Sweet!

Its like I'm sitting inside teh intrawebz!

370 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:48:45pm

re: #360 Salamantis

I studied under Jack Motley, who studied under Jhoon Rhee.

If you don't mind my saying, I think you're full of shit you might be mistaken. Jhoon Rhee is a Korean, and would not have introduced the word, "sensei" as a term for 'instructor.' "Sensei" is a Japanese term and frankly, the Koreans, especially the martial artists, are still a little sensitive about that whole, 20 years of pre-WWII occupation.

"Instructor" in Korean is jo kyo nim.

371 traderjoe9  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:49:32pm

re: #365 gmsc

It's all in context.

If it's within your interests, then you should think deeply about it.

It it's outside what you need and want to think about, then don't worry about it.

I know I'll think about it some day...I'm only 17...I'll probably have that "moment" at some point. Or maybe I wont.

Not this weekend though - paintball.

372 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:49:34pm

re: #364 SurferDoc

Thanks.

G'night, y'all. Gotta get some sleeps.

373 SurferDoc  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:50:29pm

re: #366 redc1c4

kind of like with skeet/trap/real animals... you have to keep moving the barrel as you fire.

Yes. It starts with the premise that you aren't trying to be static but fluid and that the sights will be on the target when you let the shot off.

374 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:52:48pm

re: #354 rawmuse

Thanks for that, 'muse. I remember seeing that poem here a long time ago, and it always give me goose bumps reading it.

I wonder how my LLLefty friends might react to it...

375 redc1c4  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:53:38pm

re: #373 SurferDoc

Yes. It starts with the premise that you aren't trying to be static but fluid and that the sights will be on the target when you let the shot off.

another reason i lurve belt fed weapons... easier to correct your mistakes.

376 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:54:20pm

re: #370 Noam Sayin'

Well, you know you know.

/I regret I only have one upding to give, good catch, can't wait for the rebuttal

377 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 12:00:40am

re: #376 Killian Bundy

Well, you know you know.

/I regret I only have one upding to give, good catch, can't wait for the rebuttal

Thanks for the up-ding. I wish I could stay up and discuss it with him, but I want to hit the range in about seven hours. Perhaps we'll take this up tomorrow. That will give me time to open my Song Moo Kwan Black Belt Instructor's Manual and brush up on my Korean terminology.

Di dol roi chagee...

shit like that.

378 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 12:29:17am
379 Killian Bundy  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 12:36:11am

re: #378 Iron Fist

Do you know the basics?

/covered and acknowledged

380 Erik The Red  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 12:48:28am

Testing

381 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:32:29am

re: #370 Noam Sayin'

If you don't mind my saying, I think you're full of shit you might be mistaken. Jhoon Rhee is a Korean, and would not have introduced the word, "sensei" as a term for 'instructor.' "Sensei" is a Japanese term and frankly, the Koreans, especially the martial artists, are still a little sensitive about that whole, 20 years of pre-WWII occupation.

"Instructor" in Korean is jo kyo nim.

I just used the term 'sensei' because it's a common term. We always used to call him Master Motley.

382 Erik The Red  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:20:36am

Testing again

383 nyc redneck  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:20:49am

the zoo had a lot of credibility on the line. the creation museum did not.
what an ill conceived idea.
this arrangement was going to prove disastrous for the zoo.
it is not worth tainting their reputation by teaming up w/ a backward thinking non-scientific group in the hopes upping zoo attendance.
religion needs to stay out of the realm of hard science and should not be invited in from desperation.

384 frank14  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:40:28am

Evolutionists are an incredibly intolerant lot. If they are correct, what do they have to fear from people going to the Creation Museum? Or is it that evolutionists know their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny so they must silence all debate? Evolutionists and global warmists both fear scientific testing of their quaint theories. The peppered moths, the Miller-Urey building blocks of life in a flask, Haeckel's faked embryos, Darwin's tree of life, homology in vertebrate limbs and Darwins' finches are but a few of the whoppers evolutionists have foisted on an unsuspecting and trusting public. Evolutionists can't allow anyone to hear an opposing view. Imagine how the minds of our youth might be corrupted!

385 TGregg  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:41:46am

Penn & Teller BS on Creationism urls have changed. Replace parens with GT and LT signs as appropriate:

(object width="425" height="344")(param name="movie" value="[Link: www.youtube.com...] name="allowFullScreen" value="true")(/param)(param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always")(/param)(embed src="[Link: www.youtube.com...] type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344")(/embed)(/object)

(object width="425" height="344")(param name="movie" value="[Link: www.youtube.com...] name="allowFullScreen" value="true")(/param)(param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always")(/param)(embed src="[Link: www.youtube.com...] type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344")(/embed)(/object)

(object width="425" height="344")(param name="movie" value="[Link: www.youtube.com...] name="allowFullScreen" value="true")(/param)(param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always")(/param)(embed src="[Link: www.youtube.com...] type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344")(/embed)(/object)

386 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:47:10am

re: #384 frank14

Evolutionists are an incredibly intolerant lot. If they are correct, what do they have to fear from people going to the Creation Museum? Or is it that evolutionists know their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny so they must silence all debate? Evolutionists and global warmists both fear scientific testing of their quaint theories. The peppered moths, the Miller-Urey building blocks of life in a flask, Haeckel's faked embryos, Darwin's tree of life, homology in vertebrate limbs and Darwins' finches are but a few of the whoppers evolutionists have foisted on an unsuspecting and trusting public. Evolutionists can't allow anyone to hear an opposing view. Imagine how the minds of our youth might be corrupted!

What a load of crap. One false creationist talking point after another.

387 doriangrey  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:50:45am

re: #386 Charles

What a load of crap. One false creationist talking point after another.

Cough cough... Ummm Charles... in the event you are as yet unaware, there seems to be a page loading problem in the overnight open thread... If you are aware, please disregard this post... Thank you... ;)

388 jmoss1976  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:08:09am

Re: 384, I think that the response of 386 proves your point...:)

389 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:14:40am

re: #384 frank14

You should stick around a while before posting the same tired repetitions that someone has told you to memorize without attempting to understand.

390 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:15:04am

re: #359 traderjoe9

...
Honestly though, I'm a little wasted. just a little, though. I can still type pretty well.

Typing pretty well doesn't always equate with thinking pretty well. Still, you think pretty good for a 17 year old and especially for a slightly wasted 17 year old.

My downding was mostly for this:

The way I see it, if there is a God, then there won't be any proof. If there was solid proof, then everybody would be religious. Without proof, you filter out the unfaithful.

It just really irks me when people suggest that God plays these sorts of games. It's on a par with saying God created a fake geological record to make it look like the earth is billions of years old when it's really only 5769, which would arguably also be a way to filter out the unfaithful but sounds more like the behavior of a petulant child than the Master of the Universe.

391 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:15:37am

re: #388 jmoss1976

Re: 384, I think that the response of 386 proves your point...:)

Falsehoods are falsehoods.

If that makes me "intolerant," that's fine with me. I AM intolerant of people who post long-debunked lies.

392 jmoss1976  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:19:07am

"Falsehoods are falsehoods". "Long debunked"?

My, as one in the field (who happens to blog..:), I will admit that "absolute" is not very scientific.

I guess again the point is proven.

393 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:21:35am

re: #392 jmoss1976

"Falsehoods are falsehoods". "Long debunked"?

My, as one in the field (who happens to blog..:), I will admit that "absolute" is not very scientific.

I guess again the point is proven.

You haven't proven a single thing. You're "in the field?" What field is that -- creationism?

394 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 8:53:13am
395 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:07:34am

A pretty good summation of a reasonable 'person of faith's' beliefs...

...I also believe everyone is allowed equal access to share their beliefs. Unfortunately, this sign went beyond expressing a belief and was a blatent [sic] attack. The sign does not simply express or represent a group's choice to celebrate winter solstice; the message on the sign is a "verbal" attack on Christian's choice to celebrate Christ's birth. The message of the Nativity is of hope and freedom and peace and joy. I agree, "religion" can enslave and harden hearts, but FAITH does not; nor does the message Christ brings; which is not religion but relationship. I believe the Capitol grounds are large enough to allow a representation of all our citizen's, but not large enough for us to attack each other.

It's the attack on people of faith that I find so troubling. Separation of church and state, that fine, but to group all 'faithful' into one camp (creationists) and attack them?

What's next, stoning?

396 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:10:47am

re: #395 serr8d

A pretty good summation of a reasonable 'person of faith's' beliefs...

It's the attack on people of faith that I find so troubling. Separation of church and state, that fine, but to group all 'faithful' into one camp (creationists) and attack them?

What's next, stoning?

What are you talking about? Your post makes no sense.

I'm certainly NOT "grouping all faithful into the creationist camp." Being a person of faith DOES NOT equal being a creationist.

397 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:13:48am

This is an incredibly common creationist tactic, by the way -- to portray their Dark Ages views as being the only valid views for Christians or people of faith. In other words: believe in creationism, or you're doomed to burn in hell.

It's highly dishonest, and it's intended to manipulate gullible people into following their line of anti-scientific crap.

398 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:30:28am

I'm not a creationist. Really, I haven't been inside a large, drafty builidng on a Sunday morning in decades.

But, even as a probable agnostic, I see attacks on religion based on a few sect's beliefs in strict creationism to be troubling. A person of quiet faith, I would rise to defend those who wish to believe in their religious 'crutches'. I don't think you'll change many minds with a frontal assault on religion.

Evolution is correct science, I know that as fact. Science is our, human's, attempts to explain our surroundings in a rational way. Religion is another, far older way to try to do the same thing. We find ourselves in this world for such a short period of time (what, 60-70 useful years?), science tells us that when that time is over, nothing. Religion gives many people some hope for a...longer period of time. That hope is not satisfied fully by science, and won't be in our lifetimes.

I'll give people who want to have souls the benefit of doubt. What's the harm in that?

399 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:33:19am

re: #384 frank14

Amazing that you trot out these creationist talking points as though they constitute a set of killer arguments against evolution. Like any troofer, your commitment to bullshit has compromised your ability to tell fact from fiction.

You could easily correct your current state of ignorance by checking scientific rather than creationist sources on the web, but you have no interest in the scientific facts, what you do have is an obsession with passing your own ignorance on to everyone else's children.

Stay away from our kids, creep. We will not be tricked into letting you spend time with them.

400 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:34:52am

re: #398 serr8d

More illogical nonsense, and again you're trying to equate creationism with religion. Attacking the anti-scientific falsehoods promoted by creationists (who are often deliberately dishonest) is NOT attacking religion.

Something tells me you're going to be unable to get this distinction.

401 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:34:52am

re: #399 Jimmah

That last sentence should be considered as directed at the creationist/ID movement as a whole.

402 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:40:01am

Here's Philip Johnson explaining why the first step to be taken in arriving at his (correct) view of things is primarily destructive. His vision of pushing creationism is destructive, because he doesn't have the tools to do the work of constructively changing science.

"CJ: So, would it be fair to say that the goal is to undermine or call into question what has generally been accepted in the scientific community rather than purporting your own answers to all of the questions?

Phil: Yes, the starting point is to understand what in the official answers is just dead wrong, because you can't get anywhere until you've made that step. Now, obviously at some time in the future you hope to get to better answers which are actually true, and that's a positive program, but you can't begin to work in that direction until you have an acknowledgment that the existing answers are false. You have to get the questions right before you can even determine the falsity of the answers. So, for the time being, it's primarily a destructive work that's aimed at opening up a closed dogmatic field to new insights."
[Link: communiquejournal.org...]

This point of view is twisted, illogical, and irrational in my opinion.
Sentence first, and then the verdict!

403 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:42:39am

re: #398 serr8d

Religion gives many people some hope for a...longer period of time. That hope is not satisfied fully by science, and won't be in our lifetimes.

I'll give people who want to have souls the benefit of doubt. What's the harm in that?

There is nothing wrong with that. Being tolerant of people's choice to believe in something beyond this world has nothing to do with being tolerant of attempts to scramble our kids minds with pseudo-scientific garbage in the science classroom.

404 TimothyJ  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:44:40am

Glad to hear from all you anti-intelligent design folks. Can you explain to me were the universe came from if it didn't come from intelligent design? Just "BOOM!"? There was this big mass of stuff (black hole?) and it just somehow turned into all we have today. And I assume it's still out there creating stuff, still. Last best answer I heard was, Well, we'll understand it in a few hundred years when the human brain has grown enough to figure it out. Sorry guys, your ad hominin attacks aren't swaying me at all.

405 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:45:47am

re: #400 Charles

More illogical nonsense, and again you're trying to equate creationism with religion. Attacking the anti-scientific falsehoods promoted by creationists (who are often deliberately dishonest) is NOT attacking religion.

Something tells me you're going to be unable to get this distinction.

Is creationism not based on religion? I'm with you in disproving things advanced by creationists that are easily disprovable. But do you not see that heavy-mortar attacks on creationists are attacks on religion?

If there is a distiinction, it's heavily nuanced. So much as to be, to the casual observer, no distinction. Look to the comment I quoted above...the responder, a person of faith, felt attacked by the atheist's sign. Would not that commenter also feel attacked by a too-wide assault on creationism?

Pinpoint, circumrespectful attacks are appropriate I think; but science should not conduct shotgun-pattern attacks when a simple, purposeful response would do.

406 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:46:21am

re: #404 TimothyJ

That's the "You can't explain everything, so Nyah" argument. Well done.

407 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:47:03am

re: #402 jaunte

It's the only thing they can even attempt. That's all ID is - the claim that evolution is wrong. They simply don't have anything beyond that that they could promote.

408 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:52:06am

re: #405 serr8d

First- not all people of faith are creationists.

Second- so, in order to "not attack religion" we should allow creationists to carry on with their anti-science talking points and not refute them with facts. Is that what you're saying?

409 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:52:14am

re: #405 serr8d

But do you not see that heavy-mortar attacks on creationists are attacks on religion?

No. And I'm not the least bit surprised that you just keep insisting on it. That's what creationists do.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. You're not a creationist.

410 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:52:15am

re: #398 serr8d

You won't find anyone attacking a creationist who keeps their lack of understanding to themselves and don't try to claim reason is wrong.

411 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:53:29am

re: #403 Jimmah

There is nothing wrong with that. Being tolerant of people's choice to believe in something beyond this world has nothing to do with being tolerant of attempts to scramble our kids minds with pseudo-scientific garbage in the science classroom.

If science is taught well, then there's no worries. Science should easily 'out-market' religion, after all.

Give students a choice. Point, and laugh if you want to. But to deny the existence of an alternative 'theory' seems to me to hamstring the strength of science, the strength that you think science has over religion.

Allow students to see both theories, let the chips fall where they may.

412 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:55:50am

Are you teaching science, or indoctrinating science?

Maybe religion and science are closer than you know...

413 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:56:10am

re: #411 serr8d

The 'give students a choice' option again proposes a false dichotomy.
What is the true full range of choices other than tested scientific explanations to be taught in science class?

414 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:56:23am

re: #411 serr8d

Allow students to see both theories, let the chips fall where they may.

Should we also embrace this approach with sex education?

415 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:57:16am

re: #404 TimothyJ

Try googling for the difference between physics questions and biology questions.

How about you explain to us what exactly the Theory of Intelligent Design is. That's something I can't find on google, and any time I ask an ID'er I've only ever got silence, or the usual talking points about why evolution is wrong, in reply. So , in positive terrms, what is this Intelligent Design theory? What are it's proposed mechanisms? What physical evidence is there for these mechanisms?

416 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:57:22am

re: #411 serr8d

I'm sure it's sheer coincidence that you're posting word-for-word talking points straight from the intelligent design "teach the controversy" propaganda.

Because you've said you're not a creationist -- so it must be a coincidence.

417 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:57:44am

re: #409 Charles

No. And I'm not the least bit surprised that you just keep insisting on it. That's what creationists do.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. You're not a creationist.

No, I'm not a creationist.

I'm a guideionist.

418 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 9:59:28am

Pathetic.

419 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:01:08am

re: #416 Charles

I'm sure it's sheer coincidence that you're posting word-for-word talking points straight from the intelligent design "teach the controversy" propaganda.

Because you've said you're not a creationist -- so it must be a coincidence.

You know, I've not read any talking points from any creationist site or phamplet or whatever. I have, however, spent my entire life in science.

I would not deny that creationists have some points, however invalid, as my inadvertent 'stumbling' on to them have shown.

Religion and science have many commonalities.

420 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:02:38am

Oh, so not only are you NOT a creationist, you're actually a scientist.

Who just happens to sound exactly like a creationist, for some odd reason.

421 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:03:52am

re: #411 serr8d

If science is taught well, then there's no worries. Science should easily 'out-market' religion, after all.

Give students a choice. Point, and laugh if you want to. But to deny the existence of an alternative 'theory' seems to me to hamstring the strength of science, the strength that you think science has over religion.

Allow students to see both theories, let the chips fall where they may.

So you are in favour of teaching alchemy and astrology in science class too? Has science been 'hamstrung' by the failure to teach these other theories during the last few hundred years?

Like any creationist, you try to blur the distinction between genuine scientific theory and views that are simply incorrect and not deserving of wasting our kids time with.

422 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:04:40am

re: #419 serr8d

Are you a biologist?

423 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:07:04am

Again, creationism is a facet of religion that's fading away. In time, religion itself may compeletely fade away..if humans can remain in this 'steady-growth' pattern of ever-increasing knowledge, and who knows? at some point hopefully we can shed these sorry sacks of protoplasm and migrate to nice, shiny, longer-lived structures.

But if anything happens to our 'steady-growth' lifestyles, then guess what? Religion will return, with a vengence.

So, let's stay above the primitive, shall we? I'm all for that, really.

424 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:07:46am

re: #422 jaunte

Are you a biologist?

I was thinking genetic epidemiologist.

425 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:08:58am

re: #419 serr8d

You know, I've not read any talking points from any creationist site or phamplet or whatever.

Liar.

I have, however, spent my entire life in science

Details please.

426 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:09:57am

re: #413 jaunte

The 'give students a choice' option again proposes a false dichotomy.

Of course. But it was on the next page of the script.

/must. follow. script.

427 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:10:11am

re: #423 serr8d

Again, creationism is a facet of religion that's fading away.

Try telling that to Harun Yahya, or Ken Ham, or Philip Johnson.

428 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:11:54am

re: #421 Jimmah

So you are in favour of teaching alchemy and astrology in science class too? Has science been 'hamstrung' by the failure to teach these other theories during the last few hundred years?

Like any creationist, you try to blur the distinction between genuine scientific theory and views that are simply incorrect and not deserving of wasting our kids time with.

Come on, strawman. Alchemy, astrology? Please.

But you still know those words, so you obviously learned them in school, right? Did you, by simply learning those words, want to pick up tarot cards and try to change them to gold?

429 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:14:07am

re: #419 serr8d

I have, however, spent my entire life in science.

Could you please be a bit more specific? What field of science? And in what capacity?

430 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:16:53am

re: #427 Sharmuta

Try telling that to Harun Yahya, or Ken Ham, or Philip Johnson.

None of those names are familiar to me.

Necromancers?

431 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:17:11am

re: #428 serr8d

It's not a strawman. Michael Behe admitted on the stand during the Dover trial that the definition of science that ID would allow would include alchemy and astrology.

432 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:22:11am

re: #431 Sharmuta

It's not a strawman. Michael Behe admitted on the stand during the Dover trial that the definition of science that ID would allow would include alchemy and astrology.

That's an extreme sort of belief.

Alchemy? Astrology? That's not the bible that I knew.

433 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:23:33am

re: #432 serr8d

Are you going to answer the questions about what field of science you claim to have spent your entire life in?

434 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:23:49am

re: #425 Jimmah

Liar.

I'm not a liar, Jimmah.

Why are you so attackavistic?

435 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:24:54am

re: #432 serr8d

But as someone who has spent their "entire life in science", aren't you concerned that redefining science as to allow for meta-physical explanations completely alters the foundation of the scientific method?

436 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:25:02am

re: #428 serr8d

Come on, strawman. Alchemy, astrology? Please.

Creationism is every bity as ludicrous as alchemy or astrology,if not more so.

But you still know those words, so you obviously learned them in school, right? Did you, by simply learning those words, want to pick up tarot cards and try to change them to gold?

We didn't have to sit listening to some idiot trying to tell us that they were valid alternative theories that we should consider as well as the competing theories of chemistry and astronomy!

Oh, I noticed that you didn't answer about the details of your 'life in science'. Tell us all about it, or admit to being the liar we already know you are.

437 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:25:33am

re: #433 Charles

Are you going to answer the questions about what field of science you claim to have spent your entire life in?

Physics, Charles. Not biology. So I can't say that evolution is right or wrong.

Lack of credentials, you see.

438 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:26:37am

Does physics allow for super-natural explanations?

439 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:28:01am

re: #436 Jimmah

We didn't have to sit listening to some idiot trying to tell us that they were valid alternative theories that we should consider as well as the competing theories of chemistry and astronomy!

As I said, point and laugh if you like.

If science is such an overwhelming favorite, why not take the field in pride?

Like, oh, UT vs. Vanderbilt.

Always a blowout, right?

440 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:29:15am

re: #434 serr8d

I'm not a liar, Jimmah.

Why are you so attackavistic?

Sorry mate, but your dishonesty is screaming out of you. Do you know how many people have turned up here in the last few weeks all claiming to believe in evolution, to have some connection with science (that they cannot verify)and then saying that evolution is wrong, and using the exact same arguments that undisguised creationists/IDers use? You aren't kidding anyone.

441 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:29:20am
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)
442 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:31:44am

Heh. Jimmah, I haven't been here long enough to see previous posts and struggles. If I had know that this was such a flashpoint, I would've ignored the whole issue.

But believe my, I'm not a creationist. I barely still believe in God, and not the God that I was raised to believe in.

My grandparents would be so ashamed of me..

And, go far enough back in your lineage, you would find some who would be ashamed of you, too.

443 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:33:39am

Pathetic.

444 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:34:52am

Shamuta, I find your one-word responses to be somewhat annoying.

Is that all you've got?

445 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:36:28am

re: #439 serr8d

Alchemy and astrology have never been taught in class as alternative scientific theories. At least not in living memory. Yet we all know about them.

So what would teaching them as alternative theories in class do, apart from waste the kids time and mislead them into thinking something is credible when it is known not to be? Science teaching is about informing kids what we know - it's not about chucking every idiotic notion in the world at them and telling them to take their pick.

446 swamprat  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:37:17am

re: #404 TimothyJ

Glad to hear from all you anti-intelligent design folks. Can you explain to me were the universe came from if it didn't come from intelligent design? Just "BOOM!"? There was this big mass of stuff (black hole?) and it just somehow turned into all we have today. And I assume it's still out there creating stuff, still. Last best answer I heard was, Well, we'll understand it in a few hundred years when the human brain has grown enough to figure it out. Sorry guys, your ad hominin attacks aren't swaying me at all.


Are you this guy?

447 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:39:28am

re: #444 serr8d

And I find your obfuscation, deflection, and disingenuousness to be predictable, and lacking in both facts and a coherent argument.

448 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:41:24am

re: #445 Jimmah

Alchemy and astrology have never been taught in class as alternative scientific theories. At least not in living memory. Yet we all know about them.

Exactly!

So, what's the harm of introducing creationism? Would you expect young minds full of much to immediately want to face Mecca? I wouldn't.

A broad mind can discern correct thinking from crap. Hiding one school of thought, however weak it is, seems to me to be more indoctrination than teaching.

And we surely don't want to be accused of indoctrination over reason, now do we?

449 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:41:31am

re: #439 serr8d

As I said, point and laugh if you like.

If science is such an overwhelming favorite, why not take the field in pride?

And it is of course another massive coincidence that you just happen to be advancing the DI mob's latest line in propoganda - "Yeah so it's maybe wrong, but teach it in class anyway. What harm can it do?"

450 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:43:11am

re: #447 Sharmuta

And I find your obfuscation, deflection, and disingenuousness to be predictable, and lacking in both facts and a coherent argument.

None of those words fit the arguments I present.

Try again.

451 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:43:27am

re: #448 serr8d

Exactly!

So, what's the harm of introducing creationism? Would you expect young minds full of much to immediately want to face Mecca? I wouldn't.

A broad mind can discern correct thinking from crap. Hiding one school of thought, however weak it is, seems to me to be more indoctrination than teaching.

And we surely don't want to be accused of indoctrination over reason, now do we?

Read the rest of my post that I already made to you:

So what would teaching them as alternative theories in class do, apart from waste the kids time and mislead them into thinking something is credible when it is known not to be? Science teaching is about informing kids what we know - it's not about chucking every idiotic notion in the world at them and telling them to take their pick.

452 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:44:47am

re: #448 serr8d

So- as a physicist, you think science classes should allow for super-natural explanations? Physics allows for this?

453 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:45:51am

Come on, Jimmah.

Would a 'creationist' create this?

454 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:46:37am

Latest version of ID propoganda:

"Teach the Nonsense!"

455 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:47:29am

re: #450 serr8d

No- I think it's a fairly accurate description. I've asked you a few questions, and you haven't answered me at all, but have rather gone on to attempt to shame another poster in a ridiculous, pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from the substance of his point and your inability to counter it.

456 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:48:21am

re: #453 serr8d

Quite possibly, yes.

457 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:51:53am

serr8d- here's an avatar for you.

458 hermit  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:53:01am

serr8d,

The most ridiculous part of your entire argument is that related to teaching. Our current education system can barely teach language and mathematical skills which have remained fairly constant for a millennium. So busy are they teaching all the "other" stuff and making sure no one's self-esteem gets damaged when they entrench themselves in willful ignorance.

That said - Parents are the primary teachers of their children. Bringing ID/creationism to a public school environment is evangelization and nothing more. Start your own schools, teach your own children, but PLEASE do not burden our system with more baseless pap.

Thank You.
/teacher

459 claire  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:53:25am

It must be terribly frightening to realize that one's entire belief system has been predicated on the idea that a human being cannot also be an animal, (and also pre-supposing that if an animal, by definition one cannot possess a soul) and then see that the evidence for exactly this be overwhelming and increasing on a daily basis. I'm not surprised a bit to see paranoia creep in that it's deliberate and being done for fun, and that one is a martyr being persecuted.

It seems to me to be a strategic mistake to pin the hopes of the Christian religion spreading and strengthening on the special creation of ALL species. Why not allow for an old earth? Why not embrace all the evidence that every creature on Earth evolved from a common ancestor and then leave Humans as the "Special Case" you desire? Surely, if you believe God is all-powerful, then he could have let evolution run up to the point where the Earth was hospitable for a sentient species and then Humans (Adam and Eve or whatever) were poofed into existence magically. You could even justify why humans share much DNA with Apes is because God wanted animals to be a proxy for medical research to find cures, etc without practicing on actual humans. This would at least preserve intellectual dignity and scientific integrity up to a point- allow for your universe-centricness to be the basis of your ethics, AND allow science to go where it may without your obstructionism. In fact, I bet this is about how most Christians concept of it all already is. Except for you guys...

Why fight so vehemently that NO evolution (macro in your view) has ever happened, etc? Why take that away from all the other crreatures of the Earth if you by definition reject that you are even one of them? This strategy is vulnerable by definition, is not a recipe for survival, ironic as that may be.

460 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 10:57:20am

serr9d, what do you make of the fact that the overwhelming majority of biologists are against ID and any suggestion of teaching it in classes as a credible alternative theory to evolution?

Oh, wait...

461 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:00:36am

re: #411 serr8d

If science is taught well, then there's no worries. Science should easily 'out-market' religion, after all.

Give students a choice. Point, and laugh if you want to. But to deny the existence of an alternative 'theory' seems to me to hamstring the strength of science, the strength that you think science has over religion.

Allow students to see both theories, let the chips fall where they may.

Now I think you are not what you claim to be. That is the stupidest argument of all, pretending that all opinions are equally valid. Teach astrology next to astronomy. Teach homeopathic "treatment" in medical school. Teach children that nothing is really true and that they can pick and choose reality is the dumbest argument a sock puppet creationist like you can make.

462 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:01:12am

re: #452 Sharmuta

So- as a physicist, you think science classes should allow for super-natural explanations? Physics allows for this?

I don't want to be leveraged into defening creationism. That was never my desire. I don't have the credentials to defend creationism, after all. Not my tar baby.

I have only the desire to defend a person's right to believe in a God if they so desire. Or not, as the case may be. I saw things here on this thread that seemed to me to attack, by way of attacking creationism, religion in general.

Again, none of us alive today know for sure if there is a God. I hope for my own sake that if there is a God, he is not judgemental or anything like that. I'll find out sooner that I want, as will everyone alive, maybe at the next intersection.

I sent my child to a private religious school, because public schools have no basis in morality, and I believe she's the better for it. After that, she did not continue in faith. Nor did I.

So, given the choice was offered, I am at peace.

I will not go on the offensive against creationism or religion, as I respect the beliefs of others (except those who would force Allah on all of us..there, a reformation is needed).

Later..

463 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:03:29am

re: #462 serr8d

"I saw things here on this thread that seemed to me to attack, by way of attacking creationism, religion in general."

A cite would add substance. If there was a post that did that.

464 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:05:45am

re: #462 serr8d

You are not defending the right of people to their own private beliefs, which is not in dispute by anyone here, you are trying to make the case for having the creationists private beliefs presented to OUR kids as credible scientific theories. It's not going to work.

465 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:06:11am

re: #462 serr8d

Nice obfuscation. Does physics, as a scientific discipline, allow for super-natural explanations? Yes or no?

466 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:06:41am

re: #457 Sharmuta

serr8d- here's an avatar for you.

And, a pill for you~!

;D

467 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:10:25am

Somewhere in science class:
"Ok class, let's discuss the creationist view of animals being divided into "kinds." Can anyone tell me how the theory of intelligent design divides one "kind" from another, and tells us consistently how to distinguish them?"

...

...

...

...

468 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:12:28am

re: #462 serr8d

I saw things here on this thread that seemed to me to attack, by way of attacking creationism, religion in general.

That's a lie, pure and simple.

469 Jimmah  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:12:36am

re: #459 claire

I think a lot of ministers etc must frighten people into thinking that the existence of God depends entirely on Genesis being a factual historical account, and the fate of their soul on believing it completely.

470 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:14:21am

re: #466 serr8d

Is all you have obfuscation and insults?

471 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:18:21am

re: #465 Sharmuta

Nice obfuscation. Does physics, as a scientific discipline, allow for super-natural explanations? Yes or no?

*crickets*

472 jaunte  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:18:36am

re: #470 Sharmuta

"it's primarily a destructive work"
--Philip Johnson

473 swamprat  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:18:49am

re: #437 serr8d

Physics, Charles. Not biology. So I can't say that evolution is right or wrong.

Lack of credentials, you see.

You are the first scientist to ever promote creationism on this site.

(/3rd so far, all bogus)

The correct answer is not "physics, Charles". The correct answer is "I cannot reveal my discipline because it is top secret"


Starting to get bored with creationist threads, but for an entirely different reason.

474 hermit  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:21:35am

re: #462 serr8d

I sent my child to a private religious school, because public schools have no basis in morality, and I believe she's the better for it. After that, she did not continue in faith. Nor did I.

I continue to take comfort in the balance that religious schools can produce atheists as easily as public schools can produce faithful people. By this, I believe your argument has been dismantled.

Parents are the Primary Educators of their children.

475 swamprat  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:23:20am

Somewhere a guy is researching a creationist website, and possibly crosschecking google.

476 Solly  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:38:26am

This whole "creationist" riff is getting as tired as Andrew Sullivan's "christianist" hysterics.

I'm hold degrees in Biology and Chemistry, and recognize evolution - "natural selection" - as a process that undeniably occurs, and has always occurred, in nature.

And yet I believe just as adamantly that God is the source of all that exists or has existed.

It's really not all that difficult to reconcile the two, unless one is so arrogant as to limit the means God might use to His ends, or to assert that Man's capacity for knowledge and understanding are pre-eminent and unchallengeable. Either exteme-most end of the spectrum is equally ignorant.

Why is it so difficult for fundamentalists to admit that the process of natural selection could simply be the manner in which God created and refined life on earth?

On the other side of this ridiculous brouhaha, why is it so outlandish to suggest that all scientific endeavors that seek out the origins of our existence invariably and inevitably reach a question of "why" or "how" that cannot be answered, except perhaps by an admission that there are things greater than ourselves at play, and that those "things" might actually be God at work?

Faith may not be knowledge, but neither is knowledge wisdom, and it behooves us to recognize that some of Man's myriad shortcomings and flaws simply will never be overcome, and that a belief in God isn't necessarily naivete or the desperation of the uneducated, but rather a recognition of our own limitations and a recognition that those final questions of "why" or "how" might only be answered by a "Who" that is beyond our meager comprehension.

477 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 11:52:55am

re: #390 Lynn B.

It just really irks me when people suggest that God plays these sorts of games. It's on a par with saying God created a fake geological record to make it look like the earth is billions of years old when it's really only 5769, which would arguably also be a way to filter out the unfaithful but sounds more like the behavior of a petulant child than the Master of the Universe.

I like your picture! Strong and brave!

I don't think and didn't suggest that God plays games, like making a fake geological record. The Old Testament is really how you interpret it and which interpretation is correct - which no one will ever truly know. He created the earth in six days? How literally do we take that? Did He literally create the earth in six days by making it appear out of no where? Or could it possibly mean something else that's beyond us? Maybe it is just an introduction to the modern age of humans and the beginnings of true civilization?

If you think about it, its interesting that the Bible starts with that assertion - that God made the earth in six days. There is nothing else in the Old Testament that is as provoking and controversial as those first few sentences. I can tell you with certainty that everything past those first sentences have been validated by Jews throughout history...its only those first sentences that remain a question. I'm not going to pretend to have the answer. Maybe its not meant for us to know everything - Gods ways are mysterious.

478 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 12:26:45pm

re: #402 jaunte

Here's Philip Johnson explaining why the first step to be taken in arriving at his (correct) view of things is primarily destructive. His vision of pushing creationism is destructive, because he doesn't have the tools to do the work of constructively changing science.

Reminds me of the nihilist Bazarov in Ivan Turgenev's novel Fathers and Sons:
[Link: www.ibiblio.org...]

"Aristocracy, liberalism, progress, principles," said Bazarov. "Just think what a lot of foreign . . . and useless words! To a Russian they're no good for anything!"

"What is good for Russians according to you? If we listen to you, we shall find ourselves beyond the pale of humanity, outside human laws. Doesn't the logic of history demand . . ."

"What's the use of that logic to us? We can get along without it."

"What do you mean?"

"Why, this. You don't need logic, I suppose, to put a piece of bread in your mouth when you're hungry. For what do we need those abstractions?"

Pavel Petrovich raised his hands. "I simply don't understand you after all that. You insult the Russian people. I fail to understand how it is possible not to acknowledge principles, rules! By virtue of what can you act?"

"I already told you, uncle dear, that we don't recognize any authorities," interposed Arkady.

"We act by virtue of what we recognize as useful," went on Bazarov. "At present the most useful thing is denial, so we deny--"

"Everything?"

"Everything."

"What? Not only art, poetry . . . but . . . the thought is appalling . . ."

"Everything," repeated Bazarov with indescribable composure.

Pavel Petrovich stared at him. He had not expected this, and Arkady even blushed with satisfaction.

"But allow me," began Nikolai Petrovich. "You deny everything, or to put it more precisely, you destroy everything . . . But one must construct, too, you know."

"That is not our business . . . we must first clear the ground."

479 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 12:45:11pm

re: #459 claire

It must be terribly frightening to realize that one's entire belief system has been predicated on the idea that a human being cannot also be an animal, (and also pre-supposing that if an animal, by definition one cannot possess a soul) and then see that the evidence for exactly this be overwhelming and increasing on a daily basis. I'm not surprised a bit to see paranoia creep in that it's deliberate and being done for fun, and that one is a martyr being persecuted.

It seems to me to be a strategic mistake to pin the hopes of the Christian religion spreading and strengthening on the special creation of ALL species. Why not allow for an old earth? Why not embrace all the evidence that every creature on Earth evolved from a common ancestor and then leave Humans as the "Special Case" you desire? Surely, if you believe God is all-powerful, then he could have let evolution run up to the point where the Earth was hospitable for a sentient species and then Humans (Adam and Eve or whatever) were poofed into existence magically. You could even justify why humans share much DNA with Apes is because God wanted animals to be a proxy for medical research to find cures, etc without practicing on actual humans. This would at least preserve intellectual dignity and scientific integrity up to a point- allow for your universe-centricness to be the basis of your ethics, AND allow science to go where it may without your obstructionism...

Sorry Claire, but denying shared ancestry between great apes and humans isn't possible any more:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has becbecome common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

480 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:09:28pm

re: #477 traderjoe9

I like your picture! Strong and brave!

I don't think and didn't suggest that God plays games, like making a fake geological record. The Old Testament is really how you interpret it and which interpretation is correct - which no one will ever truly know. He created the earth in six days? How literally do we take that? Did He literally create the earth in six days by making it appear out of no where? Or could it possibly mean something else that's beyond us? Maybe it is just an introduction to the modern age of humans and the beginnings of true civilization?

If you think about it, its interesting that the Bible starts with that assertion - that God made the earth in six days. There is nothing else in the Old Testament that is as provoking and controversial as those first few sentences. I can tell you with certainty that everything past those first sentences have been validated by Jews throughout history...its only those first sentences that remain a question. I'm not going to pretend to have the answer. Maybe its not meant for us to know everything - Gods ways are mysterious.

Everything? Like a global flood? Like the sun being stopped in its tracks, when it is the earth that revolves? And I could go on...

481 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:20:14pm

re: #477 traderjoe9

...Maybe its not meant for us to know everything - Gods ways are mysterious.

That we don't know everything is self evident. That we strive to know more tomorrow than yesterday is human nature, except for some who solve all difficulties by concluding they are not "meant" to be solved.

482 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:20:20pm

re: #477 traderjoe9

I like your picture! Strong and brave!

Thanks. Actually, it's "be strong and courageous," which is a phrase that appears a whole bunch of times in the Hebrew Bible (but hard to tell without the vowels or the context).

I don't think and didn't suggest that God plays games, like making a fake geological record. The Old Testament is really how you interpret it and which interpretation is correct - which no one will ever truly know.

(You keep making references to the "Old Testament." If you're Jewish, as you seem to be, that's curious.)

From your #359:

The way I see it, if there is a God, then there won't be any proof. If there was solid proof, then everybody would be religious. Without proof, you filter out the unfaithful.

That sounds like playing games to me. Or at least a major case of hiding the ball. What would be wrong with everybody being religious based on solid proof? Taking the Bible at face value, it sure seems like God provided a heck of a lot of proof at one point in time and it took a mega-dose of willful disregard of the empirical evidence (so to speak) to deny it.

If you think about it, its interesting that the Bible starts with that assertion - that God made the earth in six days. There is nothing else in the Old Testament that is as provoking and controversial as those first few sentences. I can tell you with certainty that everything past those first sentences have been validated by Jews throughout history...its only those first sentences that remain a question. I'm not going to pretend to have the answer. Maybe its not meant for us to know everything - Gods ways are mysterious.

Are you really 17? No kidding?

483 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:29:28pm

re: #481 Naso Tang

That we don't know everything is self evident. That we strive to know more tomorrow than yesterday is human nature, except for some who solve all difficulties by concluding they are not "meant" to be solved.

Am I hurting you with my beliefs? Am I solving all difficulties by concluding that its not meant to be solved? I want to know more and more as much as the next person - I just believe that we can't possibly know everything. And anyways, I was referring to God. Don't worry, I won't hinder your thirst for knowledge.

Human nature in itself is something interesting; since you bring it up. No other "animal" has the free will, the knowledge, the creativity, and the complexity of a human being - not even close.

484 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:37:06pm

re: #462 serr8d

You are one sick f*ck. There are few Obama fans here but that's just disgusting. The man's (unfortunately) going to be your next President. Show a little bit of respect.

So you're a physicist, eh? Oh. Wait. You didn't exactly say that, did you? You said you've spent your life in science and the field of science is physics. Lots of room for interpretation and assumption there. Unsurprisingly, this life-long passion doesn't seem to be reflected on your blog.

485 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:46:08pm

re: #482 Lynn B.

Thanks. Actually, it's "be strong and courageous," which is a phrase that appears a whole bunch of times in the Hebrew Bible (but hard to tell without the vowels or the context).

My Hebrew is a little rusty.

(You keep making references to the "Old Testament." If you're Jewish, as you seem to be, that's curious.)

If I'm Jewish why would that be curious?

I simply don't want to be asked anything about Jesus, his resurrection, and all that stuff. That simply doesn't pertain to me, and being Jewish, I naturally don't believe a word of it.

What would be wrong with everybody being religious based on solid proof? Taking the Bible at face value, it sure seems like God provided a heck of a lot of proof at one point in time and it took a mega-dose of willful disregard of the empirical evidence (so to speak) to deny it.

On Mount Sinai, God made a covenant with the Jewish people - those Jews that did see the open miracles in Egypt. God made it painfully clear that if the Jewish people were unfaithful, if they didn't believe in Him, if they would go against His word...that he would take them out of Israel, put them into exile. That's what happened. The "open miracles" that people want for solid proof stopped occuring after the Jewish Exile...

What would be wrong with having solid proof? I personally don't like the whole creationist crowd that says - "Believe this or die" and etc. The whole scaring people into believing ordeal. Anyways, I already said that I don't believe in solid proof (open miracles) because what do you suppose would happen if something like that occurred today? Virtually everybody who didn't believe before would suddenly become "believers" and that's somewhat artificial.

On Mount Sinai, God made a deal with the Jewish people that he would never abandon them. He promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people, and after thousands of years in foreign lands as oppressed minorities, Jews somehow made it all the way back from all corners of the world to Israel. God also said that things would never be easy for Jews, which has always been true as Jews are undoubtedly the most persecuted group of people in history, and He also said that despite their difficulties, Jews would be a "light" to the world, and no other group has arguably accomplished more and contributed more the society than Jews, against all their odds.

I personally consider Jewish history itself to be a big fucking open miracle.

486 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:49:31pm

re: #483 traderjoe9

Am I hurting you with my beliefs?

No. Did you forget the sarc /?

Am I solving all difficulties by concluding that its not meant to be solved?

You suggest that some are not meant to be solved. You need to specify which ones for that to be meaningful, which would mean that you know a lot more than you are letting on.

I want to know more and more as much as the next person - I just believe that we can't possibly know everything.

You don't know everything about me, nor I about you. The statement is trivially self evident.

And anyways, I was referring to God.

I take it you mean know everything about God? That is like saying know everything about me. Says nothing.

Don't worry, I won't hinder your thirst for knowledge.

Sarc understood.

Human nature in itself is something interesting; since you bring it up. No other "animal" has the free will, the knowledge, the creativity, and the complexity of a human being - not even close.

Some humans, on the other hand, seem determined to minimize that as much as possible.

487 Basho  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:58:25pm

re: #461 Naso Tang

Teach homeopathic "treatment" in medical school.

That's ridiculous! That'd be like Harvard Med School offering a course in acupuncture...

[Link: cme.med.harvard.edu...]

488 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 1:58:31pm

re: #486 Naso Tang

You need to specify which ones for that to be meaningful

Whats not meant to be solved? I already made it clear that I believe the entire Old Testament is misinterpreted - that we don't really know what it means and such. That's what I said is something that is not meant to be solved - the Old Testament and its true interpretation. I'm not getting in the way of evolutionary theories and the like - don't worry. Keep on diggin'.

You don't know everything about me, nor I about you. The statement is trivially self evident.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying.

I take it you mean know everything about God?

I already said Gods ways are mysterious and that some things we can't possibly know, meaning I don't know everything about God as you suggested.

Some humans, on the other hand, seem determined to minimize that as much as possible.

And I already distanced myself from the ultra-orthodox crowd that seems intent on espousing their interpretation of the bible.

489 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:04:48pm

re: #485 traderjoe9

(You keep making references to the "Old Testament." If you're Jewish, as you seem to be, that's curious.)

If I'm Jewish why would that be curious?

The Old Testament is a Christian name for a Christian book. As the the name aptly indicates, it's the first part of a set, the second and ultimate part of which is the New Testament. It's extremely similar but by no means identical to the Hebrew Bible, which is a Jewish book, many of the books of which and some of the verses of which are arranged in an entirely different order, for very good reasons. It tells a different story toward a different end. Try reading them side by side some time. It's fascinating.

490 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:07:04pm

re: #487 Basho

That's ridiculous! That'd be like Harvard Med School offering a course in acupuncture...

[Link: cme.med.harvard.edu...]

Touché!

491 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:22:41pm

re: #488 traderjoe9

Whats not meant to be solved? I already made it clear that I believe the entire Old Testament is misinterpreted - that we don't really know what it means and such. That's what I said is something that is not meant to be solved - the Old Testament and its true interpretation. I'm not getting in the way of evolutionary theories and the like - don't worry. Keep on diggin'.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you said everything had been explained, except the creation part?

In any case, what is your interpretation of a "true" interpretation? True according to you, the rabbi down the street or one of those TV preachers? Doesn't seem to me like they all agree.


I already said Gods ways are mysterious and that some things we can't possibly know, meaning I don't know everything about God as you suggested.

And you don't know everything about me or anyone else here either. So we are all mysterious too, at some level, as are you because I can't figure out what your point is.

And I already distanced myself from the ultra-orthodox crowd that seems intent on espousing their interpretation of the bible.

I thought all believers espoused their particular interpretations (and if they all agreed there would only exist one church). Does that make all believers ultra-orthodox, compared to all the others? Who, specifically, are you distancing yourself from (and we are not specifically discussing YE creationists here)?

492 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:31:28pm

re: #384 frank14

I figured that a point by point fisking of this collage of creationist propaganda talking point crapola would be fun.

Evolutionists are an incredibly intolerant lot.

Evolutionary theorists are incredibly accepting of anything that can be empirically demonstrated. On the other hand, creationists go into full denial mode and rave about hellfire and brimstone whenever empirical evidence contraditing their dogmatic myths is presented to them.

If they are correct, what do they have to fear from people going to the Creation Museum?

They don't wanna see the creationist fantasy house - to call it a museum is an insult to legitimate museums everywhere - piggybacking upon the Cincinatti Zoo's legitimacy by being associated with it.

Or is it that evolutionists know their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny so they must silence all debate? Evolutionists and global warmists both fear scientific testing of their quaint theories.

It is creationists whose specious arguments against evolutionary theory have been discredited at every turn. And they offer no scientifically credible alternatives, because what they are proposing is not empirical science, but poorly disguised religious dogma. In fact, even George Gilder and Michael Medved of the Disco Institute admit that their propaganda PR rebranding of creationism, ID, is content-free. Anyone remotely familiar with science knows that its every contention is repeatedly investigated, tested, and re-tested. That's what is exposing the bad science of those who have contended that the human race is responsible for most global warming, and why scientists, following the evidence, are now fleeing in droves from such assertions. Evolutionary theory, otoh, is impeccable science. All the empirical evidence yielded by every investigation and experimentation over the last century and a half has supported evolutionary theory. ID/creationism, in contrast, is supported by not a single empirical evidence datum, and its Young Earth/Genesis Literalist wing is contradicted by reams of empirical evidence.

The peppered moths,

[Link: www.ntskeptics.org...]

the Miller-Urey building blocks of life in a flask,

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Haeckel's faked embryos,

A century old hoax exposed by evolutionary embryologists. And it turns out that the true representations of the embryos confirm evolutionary theory more than do Haeckel's fudged drawings:

[Link: www.ntskeptics.org...]

Darwin's tree of life,

You mean cladistics? The genetically verified representation of species interlinkages and common descent?

Image: TreeOfLife.jpg

homology in vertebrate limbs

You mean this genetically verified morphological progression?

Image: shh-signal-during-limb-development.jpg

and Darwins' finches

You mean the ones whose beak variations have had their genetic basis uncovered?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

are but a few of the whoppers evolutionists have foisted on an unsuspecting and trusting public. Evolutionists can't allow anyone to hear an opposing view. Imagine how the minds of our youth might be corrupted!

As I have just abundantly demonstrated, the slanderous whoppers are being foisted by dishonest creationist propagandists. They cannot be allowed to poison and pollute the naive and gullible young minds of our nation's youth with such anti-scientific lies in public high school science classes.

493 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:32:12pm

re: #487 Basho

That's ridiculous! That'd be like Harvard Med School offering a course in acupuncture...

[Link: cme.med.harvard.edu...]

I am inclined to see acupuncture as I see chiropractors. Probably can have benefits, but when they start claiming to cure multitudes of diseases, I think it's bull.

Acupunture can have effects on the body, some of which may very well be suggestive, but I'll allow that there may be benefits in some cases.

494 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:42:25pm

re: #489 Lynn B.

I'll just refer to it as the Torah from now on.

495 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:52:07pm

re: #492 Salamantis

Sal, it looks like you've really about mastered that blockquote thing.

Your material is good, too.

Clearly frank has been reading his Jonathan Wells.

496 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:17:09pm

re: #491 Naso Tang

I thought you said everything had been explained, except the creation part?

No, a lot of the Torah is a question. Creationism is a question, among other things. Even what God really is is a question. What Rabbi's do is try to live life according to the way they interpret God wants them to live life...even if they take things such as the first few sentences of the Torah as literally as creationists doesn't nullify their faith or diminish it in any way...that's just the way they interpret it after a lifetime of studying...if they still follow Gods commandments (which really are the values that make up the backbone of our society), then they are not doing anything wrong.

In any case, what is your interpretation of a "true" interpretation? True according to you, the rabbi down the street or one of those TV preachers? Doesn't seem to me like they all agree.

I believe that we can't possibly know what God really means with a lot of the stuff in the Torah. Some things are obvious, like the commandments and mitzvot...and some things are unclear. I'm not going to try and decipher everything because I believe that its completely beyond us...its a question so deep and complex we cant even fathom it.

The only real proof of God that I can present to you with certainty is Jewish history itself - I refuse to believe that everything in Jewish history over their thousands of years has been merely a set of coincidences akin to the Torah.

And you don't know everything about me or anyone else here either. So we are all mysterious too, at some level, as are you because I can't figure out what your point is.

I can't figure out your point, either.

I don't know everything about you but a person can certainly find out a lot by knowing them. And you are right - on some level we are all mysterious. (hence being made in Gods image).

Who, specifically, are you distancing yourself from

I'm only trying to distance myself from religious institutions that you and many others loathe so much; the same institutions that try to disprove evolution and try to teach creationism in public schools. I don't approve of these institutions and these preachers and missionaries and the like - these are certainly the people and things that give religion such a bad reputation. I still go to synagogues though...and that's mainly because my Rabbi doesn't attempt to shove his beliefs down our throat, doesn't try to tackle evolution, or anything else like that. Rabbi's and Jews, like I said, don't condone missionary activity, don't even attempt to convert anybody to Judaism...and accept all other peoples and beliefs (except idolatry - in the land of Israel).

In Christianity, you can convert just by snapping your finger. In Judaism you can't simply convert...it is a whole long process and not just anybody will be admitted...Jews were always meant to be a minority.

And even despite all that, that has not at all stopped any religious and faithful Jews from contributing technological innovations and other important advancements...

497 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:20:23pm

What i want to know is why I get marked down for my God posts (another one earlier in this thread).

I was marked down earlier when I joined for asking Charles why he always posted about creationism, and I realized I should not have done that and I stopped. I didn't know I simply couldn't talk about it at all. Its not like I'm promoting creationism or denouncing evolution - I've done nothing of that sort.

Ehh, whatever.

498 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:28:05pm

re: #404 TimothyJ

Glad to hear from all you anti-intelligent design folks. Can you explain to me were the universe came from if it didn't come from intelligent design? Just "BOOM!"? There was this big mass of stuff (black hole?) and it just somehow turned into all we have today. And I assume it's still out there creating stuff, still. Last best answer I heard was, Well, we'll understand it in a few hundred years when the human brain has grown enough to figure it out. Sorry guys, your ad hominin attacks aren't swaying me at all.

You can't legitimately dispute evolutionary theory by employing cosmological arguments; it's what's known in logic as a category error. Nor can claims of ignorance be credibly morphed into contentions that some religious dogma must be crammed into knowledge gaps.

But a vast amount of the history of the universe since its early moments 13.7 billion years ago is pretty clear:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

To call such attempts to argue against A by invoking B mistaken, confused, ignorant and illegitimate is simply speaking truth to logically flawed bullshit. It may not be pleasing to those who spread such bovine fecus to have their discredited creationist crapola revealed and exposed for what it in fact is, but the truth, by definition, can never be an insult. Ad hominems are illegitimately directed to people, but debunkings directed to any false assertions people might proffer are not ad hominems, and are instead logically quite legitimate.

499 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:31:16pm

re: #497 traderjoe9

What i want to know is why I get marked down for my God posts (another one earlier in this thread).

I was marked down earlier when I joined for asking Charles why he always posted about creationism, and I realized I should not have done that and I stopped. I didn't know I simply couldn't talk about it at all. Its not like I'm promoting creationism or denouncing evolution - I've done nothing of that sort.

It had to do with this passage of yours, which is demonstrably false:

"I can tell you with certainty that everything past those first sentences have been validated by Jews throughout history...its only those first sentences that remain a question."

and which I contested in post # 480, thusly:

"Everything? Like a global flood? Like the sun being stopped in its tracks, when it is the earth that revolves? And I could go on..."
Ehh, whatever.

500 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:33:10pm

re: #497 traderjoe9

What i want to know is why I get marked down for my God posts (another one earlier in this thread).

I was marked down earlier when I joined for asking Charles why he always posted about creationism, and I realized I should not have done that and I stopped. I didn't know I simply couldn't talk about it at all. Its not like I'm promoting creationism or denouncing evolution - I've done nothing of that sort.

Ehh, whatever.

Lemme try this again:

It had to do with this passage of yours, which is demonstrably false:

"I can tell you with certainty that everything past those first sentences have been validated by Jews throughout history...its only those first sentences that remain a question."

and which I contested in post # 480, thusly:

"Everything? Like a global flood? Like the sun being stopped in its tracks, when it is the earth that revolves? And I could go on..."

501 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:41:10pm

re: #497 traderjoe9

What i want to know is why I get marked down for my God posts (another one earlier in this thread).

I was marked down earlier when I joined for asking Charles why he always posted about creationism, and I realized I should not have done that and I stopped. I didn't know I simply couldn't talk about it at all. Its not like I'm promoting creationism or denouncing evolution - I've done nothing of that sort.

Ehh, whatever.

tj ... I wouldn't sweat it too much. It's just other commenters registering their opinions. You get dinged up, you get dinged down. It's called feedback. And your karma is still pretty good.

You can talk about whatever you want. Just don't expect not to be challenged from time to time. As they say, it can be a tough room.

Here's a tip (take it or leave it). In general, complaining about down-dings is more likely than not to up your count of them.

I'll note, though, that the folks who dinged you down on your #359 are all people who tend to support evolution on these threads and the ones who dinged you up are both creationists (or darn good imitations thereof). I'm just sayin' ...

502 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:05:47pm

re: #497 traderjoe9

What i want to know is why I get marked down for my God posts (another one earlier in this thread).

I was marked down earlier when I joined for asking Charles why he always posted about creationism, and I realized I should not have done that and I stopped. I didn't know I simply couldn't talk about it at all. Its not like I'm promoting creationism or denouncing evolution - I've done nothing of that sort.

Ehh, whatever.

Don't worry about it. To some extent it just means others, many, have said what you said and a down ding is the easier way to say so than explain everything to someone new, yet again.

Actually, just yesterday I lost at least 10 hard earned points just for suggesting that your "ultra orthodox" cousins in Hebron (recently evicted) were kooks. You don't sound the same, so I don't think I'm being insulting.

As to posting about creationism, probably it would be a non topic if it wasn't for the fact that creationists are so set on imposing their ignorance on everyone else, including my children (or grandchildren I should say by now).

I could care less if they kept it at home.

503 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:23:01pm

re: #502 Naso Tang

Don't worry about it. To some extent it just means others, many, have said what you said and a down ding is the easier way to say so than explain everything to someone new, yet again.

Actually, just yesterday I lost at least 10 hard earned points just for suggesting that your "ultra orthodox" cousins in Hebron (recently evicted) were kooks. You don't sound the same, so I don't think I'm being insulting.

And once again, you insist on rambling on about matters you clearly don't understand. Not that the facts interest you, but the majority of the "settler" community in Hebron is not "ultra orthodox" by any stretch of the imagination. Whether or not they are "kooks" is, I guess, a matter of opinion. Whether or not they're haredim is not.

Your reference to "cousins" is also inappropriate. WTF is that supposed to mean?

504 claire  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:25:22pm

re: #479 Salamantis

Sorry Claire, but denying shared ancestry between great apes and humans isn't possible any more:

Yes, it isn't possible anymore by logical human beings, but that's not who these people are, and I do not like the way they are trying to discredit ALL of science on behalf of the one point that sticks in their craws, that they might be related to monkeys. It always comes down to that.

505 Basho  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:28:16pm

re: #493 Naso Tang

...but I'll allow that there may be benefits in some cases.

Yep, I am aware of the benefits too: Loads of ChiCom money ;)

506 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:34:02pm

re: #497 traderjoe9

Trader Joe, I would like to echo what Lynn B and Naso wrote. As someone five days newer than yourself, I learned the hard way. Be circumspect in what you post. Be respectful regardless of what reactions your post elicits. Personally attack no one. If you believe your are being attacked for no reason, re-read your posts. If you still believe the attack is unwarranted, do not respond in kind. Above all, do not be ruled by your Karma rating. Many will have an opinion different than yours and will want to register that. Stay true to your beliefs and defend them with honesty and integrity.
What has attracted me to this site since 2004 ( a link from NRO from Jonah Goldberg) is the intelligence and learnedness of the posters here. This is all, of course, for what it's worth.

507 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:39:15pm

re: #500 Salamantis

So you basically marked me down because you had a a different opinion?

I think I've just been confusing in my posts, though, and I apologize for that. I certainly have no proof for the parting of the sea or for the plagues. When I said that the Torah has been validated by Jews throughout history I simply meant all the predictions, the warnings, etc. that are presented in it.

508 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:42:57pm

re: #507 traderjoe9

So you basically marked me down because you had a a different opinion?

Uh- yeah. That's been known to happen. Like when a fascist sympathizer shows up and tries to convince people here that the VB is cool, I tend to ding that down.

509 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:43:38pm

re: #501 Lynn B.

tj ... I wouldn't sweat it too much. It's just other commenters registering their opinions. You get dinged up, you get dinged down. It's called feedback. And your karma is still pretty good.

I'm not particularly worried about my overall karma...I'm just fairly new to posting on this blog and mostly assumed that getting dinged down means you violated a rule (as I did initially when I joined by claiming that the creationist posts were annoying, which I should not have done), if you are a troll, and things like that.

I'll note, though, that the folks who dinged you down on your #359

Heh, I just realized you can see who dinged you up/down by clicking on the rating. You dinged me down!

No hard feelings ;-)

510 Zimriel  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:45:51pm

re: #466 serr8d

And, a pill for you~!

;D

Yeah, because a case of depression so bad you need medication for it is high-LARRY-us. If your debate opponent doesn't have clinical depression, you've just slandered her. If she does, you're no gentleman.

I don't like breathing your air.

511 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:47:39pm

re: #509 traderjoe9

"Heh, I just realized you can see who dinged you up/down by clicking on the rating. You dinged me down!" Wow,I didn't know that. I don't want know who.

512 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:48:19pm

re: #502 Naso Tang

Actually, just yesterday I lost at least 10 hard earned points just for suggesting that your "ultra orthodox" cousins in Hebron (recently evicted) were kooks. You don't sound the same, so I don't think I'm being insulting.

They are certainly not kooks. I lived in M'aale Adumim, a highly contested city, and I would have fought until the end if the IDF had showed up to evict me.

I'd lynch the Israeli Government much sooner than I'd lynch the Islamic terrorists.

As to posting about creationism, probably it would be a non topic if it wasn't for the fact that creationists are so set on imposing their ignorance on everyone else, including my children (or grandchildren I should say by now).

I completely agree...as I've said, I distance myself from those who preach and espouse their beliefs on everybody else. I don't try to "spread the word of God." In this case I just simply said my opinion, but I certainly do not condone in any way teaching creationism in school or trying to impose religion on society.

513 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:51:24pm

re: #508 Sharmuta

Uh- yeah. That's been known to happen. Like when a fascist sympathizer shows up and tries to convince people here that the VB is cool, I tend to ding that down.

Of course, because here I am imposing creationism on you, telling you how cool it is and how you should follow it or die.

514 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:53:07pm

re: #506 fiat_lux

Do you mind me asking you what can of worms you opened (just looking at your overall karma)?

Thanks for the advice.

515 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:53:19pm

re: #512 traderjoe9

I just checked: I am one day older than you. Means nothing, just correcting a mistake I posted.

516 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:55:21pm

re: #514 traderjoe9

I questioned conventional evolution theory.

517 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:57:29pm

re: #515 fiat_lux

I just checked: I am one day older than you. Means nothing, just correcting a mistake I posted.

How do you know exactly how old I am?

518 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:57:37pm

re: #509 traderjoe9

Heh, I just realized you can see who dinged you up/down by clicking on the rating. You dinged me down!

No hard feelings ;-)

I explained why here
re: #390 Lynn B.

I'm pretty sure that's how this whole exchange got started ... ?

Now, seriously ... are you really 17?

519 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:59:37pm

re: #518 Lynn B.

Now, seriously ... are you really 17?

I really am. Why?

520 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 4:59:39pm

re: #517 traderjoe9

I don't mean chronological years. I mean I "hatched" one day earlier.

521 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:00:28pm

re: #513 traderjoe9

Of course, because here I am imposing creationism on you, telling you how cool it is and how you should follow it or die.

I dinged you down for this and I'll tell you why. No where in any way, shape or form did I say or imply you were doing any such thing. I was merely stating that yes- people here might just ding you down for your opinion. Next time I won't bother.

522 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:04:04pm

re: #521 Sharmuta

I dinged you down for this and I'll tell you why. No where in any way, shape or form did I say or imply you were doing any such thing. I was merely stating that yes- people here might just ding you down for your opinion. Next time I won't bother.

Reading your post it was easy to mistake that you equated my posts about God and creationism with a fascist sympathizer about VB.

523 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:04:05pm

re: #514 traderjoe9

Do you mind me asking you what can of worms you opened (just looking at your overall karma)?

Thanks for the advice.

You can read a sample here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

524 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:07:34pm

re: #522 traderjoe9

Reading your post it was easy to mistake that you equated my posts about God and creationism with a fascist sympathizer about VB.

Only if you were reading it from the perspective of one try to garner martyr points.

525 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:09:40pm

re: #504 claire

Yes, it isn't possible anymore by logical human beings, but that's not who these people are, and I do not like the way they are trying to discredit ALL of science on behalf of the one point that sticks in their craws, that they might be related to monkeys. It always comes down to that.

Trying to appease them by tossing them an undeserved dogma bone at the expense of empirical evidence will not deter them. That's like feeding a crocodile, hoping it will eat you last. But it will most definitely get around to you - especially when you have demonstrated that you are too weak to defend established facts in the face of zealous fanatical fervor. That's like chum to a shark.

526 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:11:21pm

re: #519 traderjoe9

I really am. Why?

I just don't know many 17 year olds who spend a lot of time thinking about the kind of stuff you're writing about here. Maybe I just know the wrong 17 year olds.

pssst...here's another tip (even though you ignored the last one). You probably don't want to get snarky with Sharmuta unless you've got good reason. If you'd been around longer you probably would have picked right up on what she meant. And, yes, differences of opinion can be a very good reason to ding someone down (IMO, although there are differing opinions about that among folks here).

527 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:12:03pm

re: #525 Salamantis

Trying to appease them by tossing them an undeserved dogma bone at the expense of empirical evidence will not deter them. That's like feeding a crocodile, hoping it will eat you last. But it will most definitely get around to you - especially when you have demonstrated that you are too weak to defend established facts in the face of zealous fanatical fervor. That's like chum to a shark.

In other words, yield to dogmatic intimidation on ANY points of empirical science, and the browbeaters will push to topple it ALL, and erect their pet sectarian temple in its stead.

528 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:19:53pm

re: #503 Lynn B.

And once again, you insist on rambling on about matters you clearly don't understand. Not that the facts interest you, but the majority of the "settler" community in Hebron is not "ultra orthodox" by any stretch of the imagination. Whether or not they are "kooks" is, I guess, a matter of opinion. Whether or not they're haredim is not.

Here we go again. You do have a bee up your butt. I understand that the government of Israel thinks they are illegally occupying property. The kooks think God told them they could. When Palestinians build illegally one side screams murder when Israel tears down their shacks, but when Jews do it others scream the same.

600 "settlers" I believe in an area of tens of thousands of rabid Palestinians, and about as many Israeli police to guard them. That really makes a lot of sense only to those who think peace is never possible, and it certainly makes it a lot less likely that we will ever see peace.

Your reference to "cousins" is also inappropriate. WTF is that supposed to mean?

There goes that bee again. Is it insulting to say that Jews are "cousins" to each other?

529 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:25:48pm

re: #528 Naso Tang

They're hardly "settlers." Most of the people who live in Hebron today are either the people who lived there before being evicted in 1948 or their descendants.

And peace is not possible; the real kook is someone who believes that radical Islam will ever just simply vanish from reality or that Arabs will not have a pathological hatred for Jewish people.

530 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:27:12pm

re: #512 traderjoe9

They are certainly not kooks. I lived in M'aale Adumim, a highly contested city, and I would have fought until the end if the IDF had showed up to evict me.

I'd lynch the Israeli Government much sooner than I'd lynch the Islamic terrorists.

Then I misread you. Sounds like you say you don't want to impose your religious beliefs on anyone, with the exception of all Israelis (or other sympathizers) who believe in the rule of law, even if it conflicts with religion.

I completely agree...as I've said, I distance myself from those who preach and espouse their beliefs on everybody else. I don't try to "spread the word of God." In this case I just simply said my opinion, but I certainly do not condone in any way teaching creationism in school or trying to impose religion on society.

Except when it suites you, to the extent of lynching your own?

531 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:31:00pm

re: #504 claire

I do not like the way they are trying to discredit ALL of science on behalf of the one point that sticks in their craws, that they might be related to monkeys. It always comes down to that.

You're so right on this point. Almost always, if you dig deep enough into what the creationists are saying (and that isn't easy, because they're armed with quote mines and Answers in Genesis talking points), it boils down to: "I didn't come from no MONKEY, you ATHEIST!"

It's a very primal kind of response. But I've never really been able to understand it; I just don't get what it is about this simple truth that is so hard for some people to accept.

532 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:35:50pm

re: #529 traderjoe9

That's fine, except of course that it seems the government thinks some of them are making up their own rules.

As to the others, while I can sympathize to some degree, the whole argument sounds suspiciously like the other one about "right of return", which is impossible to allow, I agree.

Since neither group can live side by side, separation is the only answer; but you are prepared to hold all your other people hostage to your version of how that should be. Have you ever considered voting on the matter, and abiding by the results (as opposed to threatening lynching)?

533 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:45:28pm

re: #385 TGregg

Thanks, I updated the video links in that post.

534 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:46:04pm

re: #531 Charles

...

... I just don't get what it is about this simple truth that is so hard for some people to accept.

Ben Stein tried to explain that ...;)

535 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:06:38pm

re: #532 Naso Tang

I am a semitophile and I do not now nor have I understood Israeli politics, even though I have been following this 35 years. It seems to me that every time Jews give up land for peace, Jews suffer. 30 tears after the Balfour declaration, the UN partitioned Palestine , when Israel declared independence, it sparked a war which the Israel won. after every Arab attack since they gathered more land primarily for their defense. Every time they gave land for peace, the land is used for attacks on Israel. where am I wrong?

536 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:09:17pm

re: #530 Naso Tang

Sounds like you say you don't want to impose your religious beliefs on anyone, with the exception of all Israelis (or other sympathizers) who believe in the rule of law, even if it conflicts with religion.

Why? Because I oppose my government giving up land for nothing? I oppose my government kicking out Jews from one of their holiest and most precious sites?

The house that the Jews lived in was legally purchased from its previous Arab owner, so there is nothing illegal about it.

Except when it suites you, to the extent of lynching your own?

When what suites me? When does it suit me to support creationism in schools? I said I am against that.

537 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:11:47pm

re: #532 Naso Tang

I guess you could say its similar to the Palestinian right of return, except for the fact that most of the Palestinians who ended up refugees were only recent inhabitants of Palestine who moved there in the 1900's as a result of Jewish immigration, and most of them up and left on their own with hopes of returning when the Arab armies vanquished Israel.

The Hebron inhabitants had lived there up until 1948 for thousands of thousands of years, before something called Islam was born and they certainly did not up and leave on their own, but were murdered and forced out.

538 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:13:58pm

re: #532 Naso Tang

There is no answer, not even separation. There is more than a billion of them, and merely 12 million of us. If they want to destroy Israel, which they do, then they won't sleep a night without that as their main objective.

539 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:15:20pm

re: #535 fiat_lux

You are mostly right but Israel gave up Sinai for peace, to the extent that you can call it peace. Jordan gave up claim to the West Bank to get the Palestinians off their back and Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza.

I think the wall is the only solution, but allowing a few hundred people in this and that enclave to dictate to all the rest, I don't think is right. All too often the rest of the world is allowed to see them as the impediment to peace (of one sort or another), instead of the Arabs being blamed, as they should be.

It's called shooting oneself in the foot, I believe.

540 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:21:18pm

re: #538 traderjoe9

There is no answer, not even separation. There is more than a billion of them, and merely 12 million of us. If they want to destroy Israel, which they do, then they won't sleep a night without that as their main objective.

No, there is no answer, given that there are competing words of God at play, but there can be a solution.

541 Red Sea Desjardini Tang  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:22:10pm

Time to go for tonight. Hope I didn't offend.

Cheers

542 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:27:23pm

re: #539 Naso Tang

Was it Abba Eban who said that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an oportunity?

543 serr8d  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:29:31pm

re: #484 Lynn B.

You are one sick f*ck. There are few Obama fans here but that's just disgusting. The man's (unfortunately) going to be your next President. Show a little bit of respect.

I changed it for you, Lynn B.

Because I care what you think.

I guess I just have a bad case of BHODS.

544 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:29:50pm
545 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:31:45pm

re: #542 fiat_lux

Was it Abba Eban who said that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an oportunity?

He was a man of many sayings:

If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.

I think that this is the first war in history that on the morrow the victors sued for peace and the vanquished called for unconditional surrender.

One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all.

546 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:36:25pm
547 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:37:09pm

re: #529 traderjoe9

They're hardly "settlers." Most of the people who live in Hebron today are either the people who lived there before being evicted in 1948 or their descendants.

And peace is not possible; the real kook is someone who believes that radical Islam will ever just simply vanish from reality or that Arabs will not have a pathological hatred for Jewish people.

Actually, tragically, there were no Jews left in Hebron in 1948. Not since 1929.

548 traderjoe9  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:38:36pm

re: #547 Lynn B.

That's right, the 1929 massacre. Mixin' things up.

549 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:38:52pm

People who post nasty "I'm leaving, you suck, you're an atheist" comments will be blocked immediately. And their rants will be deleted.

550 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:39:45pm

re: #544 tom321

This site has always been anti-idiotarian. You're just miffed because Charles is not making an exception for your pet IDiots.

551 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:05:10pm

re: #549 Charles

People who post nasty "I'm leaving, you suck, you're an atheist" comments will be blocked immediately. And their rants will be deleted.

It looked like a seminar chain letter to me, both commentors posted the same thing?

552 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:16:28pm

re: #539 Naso Tang

I think the Israelis have given up much for peace but have received death in exchange.

553 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:21:28pm

re: #545 traderjoe9

Abba Eban and Golda Meir made a good team., IMHO

554 fiat_lux  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:33:22pm

When Gold Meir called Henry Kissinger at he start of the Yom Kippur war he asked, " You didn't start this, did you.?"

555 Lynn B.  Sat, Dec 6, 2008 7:47:24pm

re: #528 Naso Tang

Here we go again. You do have a bee up your butt. I understand that the government of Israel thinks they are illegally occupying property. The kooks think God told them they could. When Palestinians build illegally one side screams murder when Israel tears down their shacks, but when Jews do it others scream the same.

600 "settlers" I believe in an area of tens of thousands of rabid Palestinians, and about as many Israeli police to guard them. That really makes a lot of sense only to those who think peace is never possible, and it certainly makes it a lot less likely that we will ever see peace.

I think tj has answered most of this and you're gone for the night (I think) so I won't bother trying to add much. I honestly suspect that if you made the effort to learn a little bit more about what actually is and has been going on in Hebron as opposed to getting your information from incredibly biased sources that are distorting the facts beyond all recognition that you might come to see things a little differently.

Please don't assume that the Israeli government is biased toward the "settler" POV or even the Israeli POV. It isn't and hasn't been for a long time. The politics are complicated and counter-intuitive. How long do you think the (current) U.S. government would sit twiddling its thumbs if terrorists were firing rockets daily, hourly, into our cities?

Hopefully, the elections in February will set things on a better course. Maybe, maybe not.

556 Claire  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:37:30am

re: #527 Salamantis

In other words, yield to dogmatic intimidation on ANY points of empirical science, and the browbeaters will push to topple it ALL, and erect their pet sectarian temple in its stead.

I am in fact, not yielding on ANY point of empirical science. They don't intimidate me about shit. I'm simply wondering why the creationists have taken the tak that all of science is wrong to defend one critical (for them) tenet. That's basically a hopeless fight that gets tougher for them to defend on a daily basis. And in the meantime it wreaks havoc on science education and public perception of science- it's damaging. It's a stupid strategy and one that they (in my opinion) could be smarter about dogmatically within their own church which would make life easier for them AND the rest of us.

May I ask why you are on my ass about this?

557 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 3:42:04pm

re: #556 Claire

I am in fact, not yielding on ANY point of empirical science. They don't intimidate me about shit. I'm simply wondering why the creationists have taken the tak that all of science is wrong to defend one critical (for them) tenet. That's basically a hopeless fight that gets tougher for them to defend on a daily basis. And in the meantime it wreaks havoc on science education and public perception of science- it's damaging. It's a stupid strategy and one that they (in my opinion) could be smarter about dogmatically within their own church which would make life easier for them AND the rest of us.

May I ask why you are on my ass about this?

I'm not. I'm just saying that they would never settle for just that lie; they demand to Christianize the whole science shebang. They would never stop at a single concession; as I said before, the moment such a concession was offered, it would embolden them to press for more. And neither can empirical science tolerate 'only one' lie about the human species embedded in its center. Such a compromise of principles and empirical evidence would be destructive of the scientific enterprise, and show that it could be forced to embrace lies as a matter of policy, if the pressure was torqued high enough.

Galileo's recantation of heliocentrism under ecclesiastical coercion, and anything resembling that sorta thing, should be left in the middle ages where it belongs. The US is not a theocracy. And the knee of empirical science should not have to be bent to realm-of-faith religion in science's own realm-of-knowledge backyard.

558 Claire  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 4:58:30pm

re: #557 Salamantis

I'm not in any way suggesting they be "offered a concession" by gov't, science, me or anybody else. Just wondering why it hasn't occurred to them yet to follow a path (through purely internal church doctrine changes, similar to what the Catholic Church has had to do when round-Earth and Evolution both became beyond undeniable) to head-off future appearances as complete morons and a mechanism to get off our backs, which to me is the critical part.

We get to teach evolution unobstructed, and they get to have intellectual cover (in church and ONLY in church- I repeat, IN CHURCH and ONLY IN CHURCH) for whatever it takes for them to feel completely un-monkey-like. Sort of like how we teach in school that physics does not allow for supernatural causes, and the religious talk about miracles anyway in church.

559 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 5:22:36pm

re: #558 Claire

I'm not in any way suggesting they be "offered a concession" by gov't, science, me or anybody else. Just wondering why it hasn't occurred to them yet to follow a path (through purely internal church doctrine changes, similar to what the Catholic Church has had to do when round-Earth and Evolution both became beyond undeniable) to head-off future appearances as complete morons and a mechanism to get off our backs, which to me is the critical part.

We get to teach evolution unobstructed, and they get to have intellectual cover (in church and ONLY in church- I repeat, IN CHURCH and ONLY IN CHURCH) for whatever it takes for them to feel completely un-monkey-like. Sort of like how we teach in school that physics does not allow for supernatural causes, and the religious talk about miracles anyway in church.

Maybe this will happen some time in the future. However, at present, the official church doctrines of Southern Baptists, Southern Methodists, and the Assembly of God remain unfortunately inflexible and adamantine on the issue. And I do not envision diehard Genesis Literalists bending one whit on it.


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 Frank says:

We could jam in Joe's garage,
we didn't have no dope or LSD,
but a coupl'o'quarts o'beer,
would fix it so the intonation,
would not offend your ear.