Remembering Pearl Harbor

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
US News • Sun Dec 7, 2008 at 10:55 am PST • Views: 328

Today is the anniversary of one of the most devastating sneak attacks ever launched against the United States. National Geographic has a site dedicated to the memory of Pearl Harbor, featuring stories from survivors and relatives:

Remembering Pearl Harbor.

UPDATE at 12/7/08 11:18:03 am:

Meanwhile, at the Grauniad, we find a ludicrous article blaming the US for the Pearl Harbor sneak attack, because the Japanese were “humiliated” by our policies: The Pearl Harbor attack illustrates the importance of diplomacy.

There were legitimate historical reasons for Japan to feel humiliated on the eve of war. The gunboat diplomacy that resulted in the opening of Japan and unequal treaties in the mid-19th century was but a beginning. More immediately, the Great Depression and the subsequent compartmentalisation of the world into economic blocs also worked to the advantage of the already powerful. Coupled with the economic hardship of the interwar years were instances of racial prejudice in the US that aimed at preventing Japanese immigration. United by this long-simmering and humiliating sense of exclusion, Japanese policymakers, whatever their differences, stumbled toward the December 1 decision to go to war.

With almost 70 years of hindsight, Pearl Harbor should offer some lessons for US foreign policy today. Despite obvious differences between Pearl Harbor and recent Islamist terrorist tactics, they show the common desire of self-proclaimed Davids to topple their Goliaths in a clearly lop-sided battle. These Davids depend on western technologies to overcome imbalances of power, and are driven by a sense of real or imagined humiliation.

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335 comments

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1 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 10:56:37am

Remembering Pearl Harbor? Never forget.

2 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:00:13am

I've seen the bullet holes.
And the oil slick.
And I'm tearing up now.

Peace.

3 isiah  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:00:19am

its strange both Pearl Harbor bombings and 9/11 are permanently associated in my mind. However, I know there are many differences between the two events.

4 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:00:41am

"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."

- General George S. Patton Jr.

5 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:00:45am

A democracy is usually by definition very peace loving. We hoped to not get involved. But sometimes peace isn't the most virtuous thing to choose, when the other option is war against tyranny. The point became moot when tyranny came knocking on our shores.

6 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:00:51am

Once upon a time Americans said with a terrible fierceness in one single voice... Never Again... That time has obviously passed us by. Today the MSM in concert with individuals like William Ayers and George Soros pray for another Pearl Harbor. I say God damn them... God damn them straight to hell. I say Never Again... Not on my watch sir...

8 wiffersnapper  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:01:29am

*salute*

9 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:02:35am

They attacked our homeland when both countries were technically 'at peace', and it started a war.

We attacked their homeland when both countries had openly declared hostilities, and it brought peace.

People compare Hiroshima to Pearl, but there really is no comparison, other than to note they are opposites.

10 Cognito  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:03:11am

What a nice idea for a site.

11 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:03:22am

re: #6 doriangrey

We say "Never Again" with such determination because we know without doubt that someone will try.

12 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:04:00am

re: #3 isiah

its strange both Pearl Harbor bombings and 9/11 are permanently associated in my mind. However, I know there are many differences between the two events.

But yet they had a key similarity: Both were unprovoked attacks by a murderous totalitarian enemy.

13 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:04:22am

Geepers had an interesting Pearl Harbor link in message #323 of last night's open thread:

AIR RAID ON PEARL HARBOR X THIS IS NOT DRILL

14 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:05:09am

re: #11 Silhouette

We say "Never Again" with such determination because we know without doubt that someone will try.

They are trying now. They did that trying in Mumbai not long ago. They are trying, but they will not suceed.

15 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:06:16am

re: #11 Silhouette

We say "Never Again" with such determination because we know without doubt that someone will try.

16 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:06:16am

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

But yet they had a key similarity: Both were unprovoked attacks by a murderous totalitarian enemy.

And we thought the Empire of Japan were the bad guys until we considered Jihad. The Japanese were saints in comparison. At least they wore the uniform of their country and attacked a military installation.

17 isiah  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:07:01am

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

sadly, the biggest difference is that 60 years later we talk about japan as a place to vistit, a place to invest in, and a place with some really cool stuff. I doubt we will talk about Afghanistan or Iraq the same way in 60 years from now.

18 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:07:02am

re: #3 isiah

its strange both Pearl Harbor bombings and 9/11 are permanently associated in my mind. However, I know there are many differences between the two events.

You'll note in my comment (#1) that I combined slogans for those two attacks. They were both days of infamy.

My archbishop was a Japanese-English translator (US Army) on the Missouri for the surrender IIRC.

19 Macker  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:07:14am

Just north of the Golden Gate Bridge is Construction 129, a fortification which was supposed to defend San Francisco from naval bombardment.
Pearl Harbor changed all that.

Return to Construction 129

20 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:07:18am

Maintaining our freedom is a never ending battle. We must remain vigilant.

21 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:07:38am

re: #15 doriangrey

And the god damned MSM will cheer them on... Fuck the MSM they cant die soon enough for me...

22 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:08:04am

my dear father and best gambling/drinking/cribbage buddie fought the Big One...Marines 2div...Tarawa to Okinawa...he went thru Pearl on his way out...they are all heros to me

23 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:09:16am

re: #16 Silhouette

And we thought the Empire of Japan were the bad guys until we considered Jihad. The Japanese were saints in comparison. At least they wore the uniform of their country and attacked a military installation.

saints by comparison?...I humbly disagree

24 traderjoe9  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:09:24am

Pearl Harbor serves as a constant reminder to the evil that still lurks in this world, and it also serves as a reminder to the greatness and uniqueness of this country. We dropped an atomic bomb and killed hundreds of thousands of people, but we also wiped out a fanatic regime and today Japan is one of the most productive, innovative, and peaceful country's in the whole world.

25 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:10:13am
audio clip of FDR giving his famous "date which will live in infamy" speech on December 8, 1941.

Documentary using footage from both US and Japanese footage of Pearl Harbor attack.

God.. there is a bad crazy amongst us. Watching the second link, and the comments are muddied by someone ranting about how this and everything else evil in the world is the fault of the Jews. Incredible.

26 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:10:24am

re: #6 doriangrey

“The position of women is one area where the emphasis is, to the say the least, rather different.” UK lawyer on instituting Sharia law in UK; "practitioners" instead of "terrorists"; "youths" instead of Muslim thugs. We seem to have consented to our own ultimate defeat by use of these sickening euphemisms. They nauseate me with this form of lying.

We cannot fight without some fire in our hearts, some unifying sense of peril and loathing for an enemy that seeks out old people, children, pregnant women to murder and maim as a tactic of their holy war. If liberals and the left are allowed to fully implement their plans to disarm the U.S.-- literally and psychically-- we will lose our freedom, possibly our very lives.

27 Cato the Elder  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:10:28am

"Pearl Harbor was an inside job! Bombs can't penetrate steel! Investigate the troof! It was Bush's grandfather!"

28 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:10:31am

I am too young to remember Pearl and my parents are too young. But my father-in-law served at Pearl. Lied about his age and joined at 17.

29 Macker  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:10:58am

re: #24 traderjoe9

And Japan is a country I want on OUR Side as we continue to engage those Islamofascist bastards!

30 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:11:38am

re: #3 isiah

its strange both Pearl Harbor bombings and 9/11 are permanently associated in my mind. However, I know there are many differences between the two events.

You might appreciate this Victor Hanson column from a couple years ago.

31 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:11:48am

re: #16 Silhouette

And we thought the Empire of Japan were the bad guys until we considered Jihad. The Japanese were saints in comparison. At least they wore the uniform of their country and attacked a military installation.

I refer you to Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking.

No, the Japanese were not saints.

32 isiah  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:12:06am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

well said. FDR knew. It was never bombed it was a controlled explosion. It was the jooows

33 traderjoe9  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:12:25am

re: #25 astronmr20

God.. there is a bad crazy amongst us. Watching the second link, and the comments are muddied by someone ranting about how this and everything else evil in the world is the fault of the Jews. Incredible.

Its common knowledge that Zionist leaders at the time duped the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor; the U.S would thus join the war and liberate the concentration camps - the same concentration camps that these Zionist leaders duped Hitler into creating in the first place in order to generate worldwide sympathy for a Jewish nation.

[/sarc]

34 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:13:00am

Japan made such a miscalculation , drawing America into the War.
Harry Truman never waivered in his decision to use thw atomic bomb & he never implicated another soul in his decision.
As a moral man, you know that he had siome agony over it, but he remained convinced that he spared more lives , particularly our troops.

35 Cognito  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:13:31am

re: #31 Dianna

I refer you to Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking.

An absolute shame about her.

36 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:13:38am

re: #25 astronmr20

God.. there is a bad crazy amongst us. Watching the second link, and the comments are muddied by someone ranting about how this and everything else evil in the world is the fault of the Jews. Incredible.

I see that too in the comments.

What I like about that documentary was that the narrator actually used the word "enemy". Can you imagine Katie, et al using that term for any reason except to smear conservatives?

37 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:14:24am

re: #35 Cognito

An absolute shame about her.

It was. I always felt just so sad about her death.

38 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:15:02am

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

They are trying now. They did that trying in Mumbai not long ago. They are trying, but they will not suceed.

They will be defeated, utterly, and in their own lands. They will bear the disgrace of their actions for all of their remaining time upon the stage of human history. They will crawl with shame for what they did in the name of the Creator.

Let it be so.

39 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:15:06am

re: #31 Dianna

I refer you to Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking.

No, the Japanese were not saints.

I was speaking only of the Pearl Harbor attack and its comparison to the 911 attacks. Not of the EofJ's actions as a whole.

40 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:15:09am

re: #31 Dianna

I refer you to Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking.

No, the Japanese were not saints.

easily one of the most chilling gut wrenching books I've ever read...my dad hated those beasts til the day he died

41 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:15:15am

re: #25 astronmr20

God.. there is a bad crazy amongst us. Watching the second link, and the comments are muddied by someone ranting about how this and everything else evil in the world is the fault of the Jews. Incredible.

Churchill was a Jew?!

Fucking moron.

42 traderjoe9  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:15:51am

re: #34 opnion

Japan made such a miscalculation , drawing America into the War.
Harry Truman never waivered in his decision to use thw atomic bomb & he never implicated another soul in his decision.
As a moral man, you know that he had siome agony over it, but he remained convinced that he spared more lives , particularly our troops.

If they had invaded Japan, millions and millions on both sides would have been killed.

43 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:15:56am
44 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:16:55am

re: #31 Dianna

I refer you to Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking.

No, the Japanese were not saints.

Just the stories of the Batan Death March lets you know where the Japanese Psyche was at the time.

45 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:16:59am

re: #33 traderjoe9

Its common knowledge that Zionist leaders at the time duped the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor; the U.S would thus join the war and liberate the concentration camps - the same concentration camps that these Zionist leaders duped Hitler into creating in the first place in order to generate worldwide sympathy for a Jewish nation.

[/sarc]

I have actually heard this before. Incredible.

46 scalleywag  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:17:05am

NG did a great job on this, I watched that this morning. The timeline was amazing and I learned a lot of things I didn't know. A tragic loss of life from a brutal enemy. Our flag is at half mast today at work in honor of those who served their country 67 years ago.

47 Vaak  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:17:55am

This was truly a horrible day in American history, but it shows how great this nation truly can be, we regrouped and brought our enemies to their knees and didn't give up until they did. Too bad this nation lacks that resolve it seems.

On a side note, the Pearl Harbor Museum does have some "politically correct bs" and it's as bad as can be, a video you watch there before you enter the USS Arizona Memorial describes what happened in the lead up to the attack, but it also tells how we(yes, us America) are to blame because we cut off Japan's oil supply, or at least it was that way last summer in July.

48 Miss Molly  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:18:36am

There will always be groups or some countries outside of America and sadly a few Americans that will always try to being America to her knees. Both groups will always fail.l

49 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:18:53am

re: #41 MandyManners

Churchill was a Jew?!

Fucking moron.

ROTFLMAO... If the Jew's were actually capable of 1/100th of what is ascribed to them by the Jew haters then they really would deserve to be our overlords.

50 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:19:03am

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

51 Learned Mother of Zion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:19:51am

re: #41 MandyManners

Churchill was a Jew?!

Fucking moron.

He also claimed HITLER was a Jew.

52 Opilio  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:20:09am

re: #43 MandyManners

?
Iris Chang committed suicide. Cog was not being funny.

53 Steffan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:20:21am

re: #9 Silhouette

People compare Hiroshima to Pearl, but there really is no comparison, other than to note they are opposites.

The only honest comparison is that there would have been no Hiroshima had there been no Pearl Harbor.

That's something the moonbats consistently get wrong.

54 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:20:30am

For anyone wanting to understand more about this epic struggle 67 years ago, I highly recommend "Flyboys" by James Bradley. No political lenses, just raw and uncut facts about the events in Japan and around the world that led to Pearl Harbor and beyond.

55 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:04am

re: #35 Cognito

I apologize.

56 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:19am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted

Somehow, I think I'll stop reading at that point.

57 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:30am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

for gods sake what a load of shit...who speaks for the Chinese then?...spit

58 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:39am

There is a great story about one of the Japanese pilots that got shot up over Pearl Harbor and crash landed on one of the remote Hawaian islands.

A few of the Japanese descendent Hawaians joined him in a ground attack on the island. They were opposed by other civilians on the island and eventually killed.

Source pending. I think it was a Ienaga who wrote a profound history titled: War in the Pacific.

59 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:39am

Charles, would you please delete my No. 35?

60 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:40am

It is a day which ought to be remembered across Europe as well, especially by the presently living generation of Germans and Russians: without Pearl Harbour, Hitler may well have won the war in Europe, Soviet Russia included.
The consequences of that are too dreadful to contemplate.

I salute your heroes.

61 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:21:49am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

So, in other words, they do believe in the concept of a just war?
/sarc

62 notutopia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:22:14am

re: #50 Charles

Fark writes for the UK Guardian?

63 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:22:26am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

Illustrates the important of diplomacy?! That may be the worst and most twisted MSM phrase I have ever seen. Ever.

Can't begin to describe how fucked up that is on so many levels...

I need to go for a walk.

64 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:22:41am
65 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:22:49am

re: #57 albusteve

for gods sake what a load of shit...who speaks for the Chinese then?...spit

...or the rest of Asia, for that matter

66 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:22:58am

*sigh*

67 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:23:10am

re: #42 traderjoe9

If they had invaded Japan, millions and millions on both sides would have been killed.

All of those Pacific islands with Japanese tropps would have had to be invaded. Amphibious assayuolts were ugly against fortified positions.
The Mainland would have been a bloodbath. The Japanese soldiers , while misguided were good troops & the civilian population was prepared to resist.

68 jaunte  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:23:36am

re: #50 Charles

Eri Hotta at the Guardian expends a lot of words and never quite gets to a specific recommendation for diplomacy other than "dealing carefully with potentially hostile states."

Whatever, Eri.

69 SummerSong  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:23:37am

re: #59 MandyManners

Charles, would you please delete my No. 35?

#35 is Cog's.

70 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:23:39am

re: #59 MandyManners

Charles, would you please delete my No. 35?

NO. 43.

71 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:23:56am

There was an article somewhere the other day about some current Japanese general who won an essay contest about WWII, along these same lines. Korea and China protested so strongly, general was cashiered.

72 Elcid  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:24:09am

Meanwhile, at the Grauniad..."because the Japanese were “humiliated” by our policies"

Same BULLSHIT used for our non-modern day fanatics, called Islamists.

73 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:24:26am

re: #63 astronmr20

Illustrates the important of diplomacy?! That may be the worst and most twisted MSM phrase I have ever seen. Ever.

Can't begin to describe how fucked up that is on so many levels...

I need to go for a walk.

Apparently Nevile Chamberlain is alive and well and writing for the MSM...

74 ClosetConservative  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:24:27am

I don't believe that the ideology of BlameAmericans-ism is alive and kicking. For Christ's sake, what's in the water over there? The far left likes to talk about how Republicans blame the victim, but look at this prime piece of hypocrisy.

75 notutopia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:24:51am

re: #59 MandyManners

Mandy, you can cover my back anyday!
I'd rather have defense reactivity in a gunfight than some arse waiting to cover me by asking questions...

76 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:24:54am

The Guardian is saying that Goliath was the good guy?

77 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:25:46am

re: #66 MandyManners

*sigh*

hey...Iluvuman!

78 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:25:47am

re: #76 MandyManners

The Guardian is saying that Goliath was the good guy?

David was a Jew, so yes.


/

79 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:26:21am

re: #43 MandyManners

It's not fucking funny, you fucking asswipe. What's funny about rape? Oh, fuck you.

What?

I know you don't like cognito.

80 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:26:30am

re: #50 Charles

Interesting. Is she a progressive or a Buchanan style conservative? I can't tell them apart anymore.

81 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:26:31am

re: #42 traderjoe9

If they had invaded Japan, millions and millions on both sides would have been killed.

This is a brilliant book about why Truman had to use the Atom Bomb: "Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb". It was highly recommended by a Lizard - naturally! - a while ago, and i recommend it as well, wholeheartedly.

82 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:26:36am

re: #50 Charles

Looks like a lot of commenters over there are handing his ass to him for it.

83 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:01am

If I had a penis, it would be sporting shoe-prints right now.

84 Learned Mother of Zion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:06am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

Al-Grauniad thinks Chamberlain was a hero? That his plan actually worked? I threw up in my mouth.

85 tedzilla99  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:23am
Grauniad

?

86 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:39am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.


Nice fisking in the comments section of that article by commenter MoveAnyMountain.

87 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:43am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

"Restricted Japanese Immigration", is somehow a justification for Pearl Harbor? Well we fixed that, anybody can stroll in now & demand public assistance. Why doesn'y everbody love us now?

88 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:46am

re: #35 Cognito

I hadn't realized she died, by her own hand. Such a waste of her young life.

89 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:58am

re: #79 Dianna

See my No. 55, please.

90 ClosetConservative  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:27:59am

What's really scary about that article is the comments section. Yeah, people are comparing Pearl Harbor to 9/11, but not in the traditional manner. Rather, they suggest that both were false flag operations conducted by American forces.

And one guy blamed Israel. Before it existed.

Damn. I hope he was kidding.

91 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:28:11am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

But diplomacy means "Peace for our time". Sure we'll be diplomatic with al-Queda, just point us to bin-Laden or his successor and we'll "negotiate" with him.

Some people, some ideologies, refuse to negotiate—they demand subservient slavery or death to all.


But no matter how strong and historically justified such grievances may be, those who resort to murderous tactics must be condemned. However, high-handedness and tough talk alone are an inadequate response, for this approach further humiliates those who already feel humiliated, and alienates those who might otherwise proffer a more moderate voice. Diplomacy no longer works with terrorism, but it can help to prevent it by dealing carefully with potentially hostile states. -Eri Hotta

Sure everyone hopes that giving people a bit of dignity, a sense of self-worth, will cause them to be reasonable and peaceful. No one but idiots like war. But sometimes we are negotiating with idiots.

92 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:28:22am
93 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:28:22am

Off to shovel snow.

BBL...

94 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:29:12am

re: #79 Dianna

What?

I know you don't like cognito.

She just misunderstood cog's statement. Since cog usually is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest in his posting it's not hard to understand why anyone would misunderstand when his comment is innocent.

95 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:29:52am

re: #83 MandyManners

It happens.

96 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:29:55am

December 7, I always remember my Mom on this day. She arrived in Hawaii on the 5th to meet my Dad who was crew on a B-17. As timing would have it, his bomb group had been sent to the Philippines just before her ship came in. She was staying at enlisted mens married housing at Hickam when all hell broke loose. She tells the story of how incensed they were that she an another woman were throwing potatoes from a sack at the Japs, the planes were so low she clearly looked at one of their pilots square in the face.

She spent several days in hospital recovering from a concussion and went on to volunteer work at the hospital until it was decided they were safe from invasion and allowed to go home.

My dad saw a lot of war in the Pacific and was very highly decorated. He was most proud of this purple heart. I alway felt mom should have had one too!

97 doppelganglander  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:29:57am

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

98 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:30:13am

re: #89 MandyManners

I saw.

Stuff happens.

99 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:30:20am

Will that idiot think that an Iranian nuke going off over Tel Aviv is the modern equivalent of David's rock?

100 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:04am

re: #85 tedzilla99

Grauniad?

The Guardian is noted for its typos, so this is the oft-used name for it on the internet.

101 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:05am

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

Hitler's doom was sealed once he invaded the Soviet Union, for after that America's domestic Communists--previously, during the period of the Hitler-Stalin Pact, rabidly isolationist--became all for US participation in the European war. Pearl Harbor was the catalyst, but the Communists in the US would have probably gotten the US into the war against Hitler within another 6 months.

Yah. Y'know, I didn't realize this until very recently.

102 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:10am

re: #98 Dianna

I saw.

Stuff happens.

It's a bitch when I let my emotions do my thinking.

103 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:12am

It seems Eri Hotta is a Buchanan style ethnic nationalist...

Pan-Asianism and Japan's War 1931-1945

104 Cognito  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:18am

re: #79 Dianna

What?

I know you don't like cognito.

It was just a misunderstanding.

105 WindHorse  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:23am

re: #97 doppelganglander

no doubt being read from somewhere in the 57th state...

106 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:31:51am

THANKS, CHARLES!

107 Macker  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:32:07am

re: #83 MandyManners

Huh?

108 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:32:09am

re: #104 Cognito

It was just a misunderstanding.

I got that.

109 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:32:10am

re: #104 Cognito

It was just a misunderstanding.

You're gracious. Thank you.

110 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:32:28am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

What a scholar B Huessin O II is. 57 states and all that.

111 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:32:46am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

Yet another sign that 0bambi has come back in time to save us from ourselves.

112 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:32:59am

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

Hitler's doom was sealed once he invaded the Soviet Union, for after that America's domestic Communists--previously, during the period of the Hitler-Stalin Pact, rabidly isolationist--became all for US participation in the European war. Pearl Harbor was the catalyst, but the Communists in the US would have probably gotten the US into the war against Hitler within another 6 months.

indeed...obviously he did not fear Ambrose's Citizen Soldier

113 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:33:07am
Moreover, by transferring its Pacific fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor, the US encouraged the Japanese understanding that the US fully anticipated war with Japan.

Ah- I see. We had it coming- of course! America always has it coming.

114 Racer X  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:33:19am

re: #93 Noam Sayin'

Off to shovel snow.

BBL...

What is this "snow"?

115 DocDale  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:33:39am

If it's any consolation, 'comment is free' is the 'blog' section of the Guardian, and it's notorious over here, too. Norm Geras considers it a cesspit and refuses to link to it.

116 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:33:42am

re: #111 itellu3times

Yet another sign that 0bambi has come back in time to save us from ourselves.

Maybe the kid who was groping the cardboard Hillary wrote it. Such a fine speechwriter that guy should make.

117 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:34:04am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

It shows how utterly disconnected from reality his speech-writers really are. The doctor only smacked them on the bottom very recently, and they learned about history in public schools and in university classrooms.

118 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:34:14am

re: #107 Macker

I misunderstood something Cognito wrote and I went ballistic in reponse and Charles thankfully deleted it.

119 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:34:24am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

Keep in mind that 0bama is the guy who thinks only one bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor.

120 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:35:14am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.

That scribe and his stuff makes me ashamed to be British.

On another note - leftists always show a most amazing misuse of actual, corroborated historical facts. But the again, its not surprising that an Englishman shows this patronising attitude to all those who belong to what they regard as 'worthy oriental gentlemen'.
Disgusting.
Never mind that its cloaked in tearful leftie sententiousness, it will always shine through.

121 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:35:23am

re: #110 Crimsonfisted

What a scholar B Huessin O II is. 57 states and all that.

He thinks on a more celestial level. Be he not judged by we mortals, unless of course you think that he has made government cool again.

122 jaunte  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:35:26am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I assume from the price and rarity of her book, that its thesis hasn't found wide acceptance.

123 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:35:35am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

Who writes his stuff?

124 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:35:55am

re: #119 gmsc

Keep in mind that 0bama is the guy who thinks only one bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor.


Just WHO voted for this guy? SHEESH! WHY, in the name of all things holy, are we STUCK with him?
/rhetorical, blowing steam. Best to be decorating the tree now.

125 Opilio  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:36:00am

re: #96 The Shadow Do

... She tells the story of how incensed they were that she an another woman were throwing potatoes from a sack at the Japs, the planes were so low she clearly looked at one of their pilots square in the face.

How delightfully un-PC. :-)

126 TheMatrix31  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:36:32am

re: #119 gmsc

Keep in mind that 0bama is the guy who thinks only one bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor.

Where in that video is the "one bomb" comment?

And video needs to be loaded of this 78-years-ago thing.

127 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:36:40am

re: #123 MandyManners

Who writes his stuff?

Fresh-faced morons.

128 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:36:55am

re: #81 yma o hyd

Thisp>

Wtf?

No idea what happened - this was meant as a link to this book:
Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb - which a Lizard highly recommended a while ago.

Sorry about that, Lizards!

129 Racer X  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:36:56am

re: #123 MandyManners

Who writes his stuff?

Bill Ayers.

/duh

130 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:37:36am

re: #125 Opilio

How delightfully un-PC. :-)

Captures the flavor of the times.

131 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:37:39am

re: #126 TheMatrix31

Where in that video is the "one bomb" comment?

And video needs to be loaded of this 78-years-ago thing.

Right at the beginning.

132 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:37:49am
133 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:38:11am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

The man has a very superficial sense of history.

134 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:38:13am

re: #50 Charles

If you really want to be disgusted, check out the update above for the Guardian's view on Pearl Harbor.


While this author has some authority on 'Japanese designs in Asia' his conclusions seem pre-fabricated to the specifications of modern moonbattery.

135 TheMatrix31  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:38:35am

re: #131 gmsc

Right at the beginning.

Heh, it's the laziness in me on this football Sunday. Thanks!

136 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:39:00am

re: #127 astronmr20

Fresh-faced morons.

re: #129 Racer X

Bill Ayers.

/duh

Maybe he needs to call Peggy Noonan.

137 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:39:05am

re: #113 Sharmuta

Ah- I see. We had it coming- of course! America always has it coming.

The invasion of China and other hostile Japanese moves in the hemisphere had nothing to do with it.

138 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:39:31am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

Perhaps Joe Biden is still doing the proof reading.

139 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:39:34am

re: #128 yma o hyd

Wtf?

No idea what happened - this was meant as a link to this book:
Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb - which a Lizard highly recommended a while ago.

Sorry about that, Lizards!

the link works just fine

So, where is the book spinoff area? Someone told my friend's cousin or her auntie that there's a book section here

140 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:39:34am

I had the unique experience of visiting the Cave of the Virgins on Okinawa only a few weeks before seeing the Arizona Memorial in Hawaii. It was a curiously juxtaposed perspective of WW2 from different sides.

The CMSgt who gave me the tour in Okinawa was married to an Okinawan and spoke the language extremely well (could even karaoke in it!).

He told me that every time he brought someone to the memorial, the Okinawans would spontaneously thank him (I witnessed this) and thank America...I was stunned. They blamed the Japanese completely. Not us.

Here we were at this horrible, devastatingly sad, underground memorial where little girls had been blown up in the heat of a raging battle by American soldiers (they could not tell the voices coming from below ground were young girls and firebombed what they thought were enemy soldiers). And the native people of this place forgave because they knew what the soldiers were trying to do for them -- and did -- freeing them from the horrors of the Japanese tyranny.

I can only hope someday, at a peace memorial somewhere in Iraq, someone will be able to thank an American soldier.

141 SurferDoc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:39:38am

re: #83 MandyManners

If I had a penis, it would be sporting shoe-prints right now.

LOL!

142 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:40:23am

re: #124 Crimsonfisted

Just WHO voted for this guy? SHEESH! WHY, in the name of all things holy, are we STUCK with him?
/rhetorical, blowing steam. Best to be decorating the tree now.


Maybe because we nominated a guy disliked by the base of his own party & who ran what seemed to me to be a half hearted campaign.
On the other hand , maybe with the MSM assistance & the national infatuation nothing could have stopped BHO

143 Opilio  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:40:44am

re: #97 doppelganglander

Obama was on Fox News a few minutes ago introducing General Shinseki as his nominee for Veterans Affairs. Since it's Pearl Harbor Day, he referred to it -- as happening "nearly 78 year ago." WTF? As math impaired as I am, I get 67 years ago today. Oh, and he was reading from a prepared text.

No doubt the press will harp about this the same way they did when Bush 41 made a reference to "September 7, 1941" is a speech once.

Or maybe not.   After all 78 is nearly 67 - if you're counting backwards from 100 by 11's.

144 Intifan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:40:51am

re: #123 MandyManners

Who writes his stuff?

People more intelligent them him.

145 Intifan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:41:12am

re: #144 Intifan

People more intelligent them him.

*then PIMF

146 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:41:28am

re: #96 The Shadow Do

December 7, I always remember my Mom on this day. She arrived in Hawaii on the 5th to meet my Dad who was crew on a B-17. As timing would have it, his bomb group had been sent to the Philippines just before her ship came in. She was staying at enlisted mens married housing at Hickam when all hell broke loose. She tells the story of how incensed they were that she an another woman were throwing potatoes from a sack at the Japs, the planes were so low she clearly looked at one of their pilots square in the face.

She spent several days in hospital recovering from a concussion and went on to volunteer work at the hospital until it was decided they were safe from invasion and allowed to go home.

My dad saw a lot of war in the Pacific and was very highly decorated. He was most proud of this purple heart. I alway felt mom should have had one too!

What a GREAT story! I love the image of your mom and that other woman throwing the potatoes.

147 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:41:29am

Anyone remotely interested in The Pacific War must read this book.

148 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:41:35am

re: #140 hermit

I had the unique experience of visiting the Cave of the Virgins on Okinawa only a few weeks before seeing the Arizona Memorial in Hawaii. It was a curiously juxtaposed perspective of WW2 from different sides.

The CMSgt who gave me the tour in Okinawa was married to an Okinawan and spoke the language extremely well (could even karaoke in it!).

He told me that every time he brought someone to the memorial, the Okinawans would spontaneously thank him (I witnessed this) and thank America...I was stunned. They blamed the Japanese completely. Not us.

Here we were at this horrible, devastatingly sad, underground memorial where little girls had been blown up in the heat of a raging battle by American soldiers (they could not tell the voices coming from below ground were young girls and firebombed what they thought were enemy soldiers). And the native people of this place forgave because they knew what the soldiers were trying to do for them -- and did -- freeing them from the horrors of the Japanese tyranny.

I can only hope someday, at a peace memorial somewhere in Iraq, someone will be able to thank an American soldier.


They are already thanking American soldiers in Iraq. However, I don't think that region will ever see a lasting peace.

149 SurferDoc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:42:14am

re: #145 Intifan

*then PIMF

than

150 Intifan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:43:39am

re: #149 SurferDoc

Yes! I am on a roll today! Two errors in a row!

151 winston06  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:43:44am

Never Forget Pearl Harbor and September 11th.

And ignore the stupid communists in Guardian newspaper.

152 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:44:10am

re: #140 hermit

Oh dear God - that made me cry.
That book I mentioned gives an excellent short history of the Okinawans and how they were colonised and suppressed by Japan and basically used as cannon fodder during that invasion.

No matter what the MSM write today, and what they want people to believe: the real, everyday people know the truth.

153 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:45:11am

re: #140 hermit

And the native people of this place forgave because they knew what the soldiers were trying to do for them -- and did -- freeing them from the horrors of the Japanese tyranny.

That's curious...since they were Japanese. I think they may have been grateful for opening up a future for them that was not dictated to by their imperialists/militarists?

154 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:46:11am

re: #148 astronmr20

They are already thanking American soldiers in Iraq. However, I don't think that region will ever see a lasting peace.

I really hope that you are wrong. I don't think you are, though, which makes me quite gloomy.

155 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:46:14am

re: #139 Joan

If you got to the 'Top rated links', at the top of this or indeed the front page, you'll find a drop-down menu with a list of topics. 'Books' is one of them ...

156 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:46:15am

re: #93 Noam Sayin'

Off to shovel snow.

BBL...

Done!

Of course, It started snowing again.

157 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:46:54am

re: #156 Noam Sayin'

Done!

Of course, It started snowing again.

Just pour some hot water on it.

158 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:47:26am

Luckily the facts of December 7, 1941 are too well known to be spun by MSM or Guardian crap. They'll try anyway, hoping to snare a few into their stupid web of stupidness.

159 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:47:28am

re: #146 goddessoftheclassroom

What a GREAT story! I love the image of your mom and that other woman throwing the potatoes.

She couldn't really explain it. They were well and truly pissed off! Like they say, folks just don't know what they will do in situations like that.

160 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:47:28am

re: #148 astronmr20

They are already thanking American soldiers in Iraq. However, I don't think that region will ever see a lasting peace.

Don't see how with the Sunni/ Shia thing going on & Iran stirring the pot.

161 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:47:29am

re: #157 MandyManners

Just pour some hot water on it.

...and prepare to spectacularly break your hip later on.

162 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:47:35am

When Time magazine printed its cover story about 0bama being the next FDR, my first thought was, "Japanese Americans, watch out!"

163 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:48:32am

re: #157 MandyManners

Just pour some hot water on it.

That makes it fun to watch people walking by my house. At 9°, it's really light, dry stuff. I'm thinking of firing up the leaf blower to catch the rest of it.

164 Nylecoj  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:49:21am

re: #40 albusteve

easily one of the most chilling gut wrenching books I've ever read...my dad hated those beasts til the day he died

My FIL was on the Tennessee berthed next to the Arizona that day. He told us little about the experience but I do remember when he was in the hospital about 10 years ago just before he died it all seemed to come back. He would not allow us to bring the kids in to see him as the place was 'booby trapped' and we also had to ask the nurses on his floor not to assign a young Philipino lady to his room as he would go completely crazy because she was a *&% (insert derogatory word for Japanese citizen here) tryng to kill him.
It was so sad to know that all he had suffered had been sitting in the back of his mind with no place to release it for all of those years.

165 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:49:27am

re: #147 experiencedtraveller

Anyone remotely interested in The Pacific War must read this book.

Um, have you read the review by "Aulus Gellius"?

Still, I suppose most of us know so little, it might still be enlightening.

166 tradewind  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:49:32am

Yeah.
We better not diss, we better be nice
We oughta shut up, I'm tellin' you twice
Japan bombed us 'cause they...
Lost Face.
/sarc/

167 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:49:47am

re: #153 The Shadow Do

That's curious...since they were Japanese. I think they may have been grateful for opening up a future for them that was not dictated to by their imperialists/militarists?

No, they're not. The Okinawans do not consider themselves Japanese. They have their own language and culture.

168 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:49:50am

It's 60°F here.

169 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:50:45am

re: #163 Noam Sayin'

That makes it fun to watch people walking by my house. At 9°, it's really light, dry stuff. I'm thinking of firing up the leaf blower to catch the rest of it.

a balmy 58 here in the Rio Grande Valley!

170 Rev  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:51:28am

I lived with a father who was there on board the USS Maryland as a young (18 yr old) Seaman Apprentice. He ended up spending much of that day tryign to use welding torches and such to get to men trapped inside the USS Oklahoma. This is a day I will never forget. (Six years later, I was born on this same day, and 18 years after that I follow3ed his lead and joined the Navy myself for a 21 year career).

Dec. 7th, 1941 is a Day of Infamy that I will never allow to be fully forgotten.

171 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:52:15am

re: #169 albusteve

a balmy 58 here in the Rio Grande Valley!

It's gray and cold and 59 here in Los Angeles.

Women and children are most affected, film at eleven.

172 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:52:19am

re: #158 David IV of Georgia

Luckily the facts of December 7, 1941 are too well known to be spun by MSM or Guardian crap. They'll try anyway, hoping to snare a few into their stupid web of stupidness.

Yeah, we had it coming of course. How dare we embargo their oil supply.
Because they were busy conquering Asia pacific? Nahhh...
/

173 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:52:43am

The UK Guardian:
Gramscian Whore of Whatever Will Piss Off (or On) The Establishment

Its obit for Jack Profumo (March, 2006) foamed at the mouth for paragraphs and paragraphs about "THE SCANDAL" ... then finally got around to mentioning ... oh, by the way, he also did some volunteer work at Toynbee Hall.

/typical of the assholes

174 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:53:05am
175 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:53:13am

re: #165 itellu3times

Um, have you read the review by "Aulus Gellius"?

Still, I suppose most of us know so little, it might still be enlightening.

It is a very interesting book because he describes very well the way the Japanese military had got their ideology into schools and universities way before the 1930s.
Yes, one's got to disregard the communist affiliation of this author, but it is still a very important insight into why and how this militaristic mindest evolved and got established in Japan.

176 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:53:53am

re: #173 pre-Boomer Marine brat

MWAH!

177 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:54:16am

re: #152 yma o hyd

Oh dear God - that made me cry.
No matter what the MSM write today, and what they want people to believe: the real, everyday people know the truth.

Made me cry, too. And more so when I saw the AZ Memorial a little while later.

178 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:54:33am

re: #164 Nylecoj

My FIL was on the Tennessee berthed next to the Arizona that day. He told us little about the experience but I do remember when he was in the hospital about 10 years ago just before he died it all seemed to come back. He would not allow us to bring the kids in to see him as the place was 'booby trapped' and we also had to ask the nurses on his floor not to assign a young Philipino lady to his room as he would go completely crazy because she was a *&% (insert derogatory word for Japanese citizen here) tryng to kill him.
It was so sad to know that all he had suffered had been sitting in the back of his mind with no place to release it for all of those years.

as far as I know I was the only person my dad revealed his war memories to...with the exception of his brother who flew Mustangs out of England...he didnt rage or flip...just an everlasting burning hatred and surely I never held it against him...some harrowing tales tho

179 Wishing  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:54:45am

re: #170 Rev

I lived with a father who was there on board the USS Maryland as a young (18 yr old) Seaman Apprentice. He ended up spending much of that day tryign to use welding torches and such to get to men trapped inside the USS Oklahoma. This is a day I will never forget. (Six years later, I was born on this same day, and 18 years after that I follow3ed his lead and joined the Navy myself for a 21 year career).

Dec. 7th, 1941 is a Day of Infamy that I will never allow to be fully forgotten.

Thank you for your service!

180 USCMSNE  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:54:51am
More immediately, the Great Depression and the subsequent compartmentalisation of the world into economic blocs also worked to the advantage of the already powerful.

The bad thing is, there are people who want the US to fail. They want the US weakened. Even in our greatest economic struggle, to the author, we were still too powerful. Even during our Great Depression, it was our fault that we were too rich and powerful. These are the people that are populating the next administration. The academics, the elites. These are the people who are happy with the current turmoil in the markets. These are the people who think the current economic state is justice served. These are the people who would rather see the USA fail for no other reason than that we've been, as a nation, unapologetically successful.

181 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:55:20am

re: #161 astronmr20

...and prepare to spectacularly break your hip later on.

I'm loved for my beauty, not my rational thought.

182 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:55:22am

re: #132 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't realize it until relatively recently myself--when I realized that the reason we had such "American unity" during WWII was that the automotive, coalminers', merchant marine, longshormen's, screenwriters' and screen actors' guilds, and probably the newspaper guilds also, were all Communist-dominated--and they were all behind the US war effort, not for the US, but to save Mother Russia.

And that was when I realized that the war against Islamism was being so vocally opposed because there is no longer a central Party that tells the successors of these WWII-era interests what to do, with the expectation that they would shut up and to it--and that we were seeing, in the nationwide grumbling and refusal to respond as a unified nation to the attacks on 9/11, just what WWII would have looked like if the domestic Communists had not, for their own reasons, wanted us to succeed.

This is the history they never taught us in school, growing up in the cold-war anti-Communist 50s and 60s.

After I read it (in "Liberal Fascism"?), I was able to confirm it with my 85 yo father, and a 90 yo neighbor, who both confirmed it very matter of factly.

Amazing, the blindness we can live with, all our lives.

183 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:55:49am

re: #163 Noam Sayin'

That makes it fun to watch people walking by my house. At 9°, it's really light, dry stuff. I'm thinking of firing up the leaf blower to catch the rest of it.

AAAIIIYEEE! I hate that noise.

184 Opilio  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:55:57am

re: #171 itellu3times

It's gray and cold and 59 here in Los Angeles.

Women and children are most affected, film at eleven.

A toasty 61° F. in the desert SW.

185 Nylecoj  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:56:02am

re: #96 The Shadow Do

December 7,

My dad saw a lot of war in the Pacific and was very highly decorated. He was most proud of this purple heart. I alway felt mom should have had one too!

IMO she should have, what an incredible story!

186 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:56:50am

re: #167 hermit

No, they're not. The Okinawans do not consider themselves Japanese. They have their own language and culture.

Thank you. Live and learn. I understood it was the first battle on Japanese home land. I did not know they saw themselves as separate. It's hard to understand how they bought into mass suicide based Japanese propaganda at the time. I'll do a little reading up on this one.

187 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:57:03am

re: #176 goddessoftheclassroom

MWAH!

Blame yourself, goddess.
You didn't wait until the rant about Profumo had subsided.

MWAH! anyway

(-:

188 psyop  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:57:09am

There isn't a person who's family has been here since the '30's that isn't touched by the events of WW2. You may not even know it, but somewhere there in your family, is a story. WW2 veterans are dying at a rate of about 1000 a day at this point. If you get a chance, find your family member that served, and ask them about their experience.

Write it down. This is an amazing history that should never be forgotten.

Last month, my wife watched her grandfather get put in the ground. He was an amazing man who flew 27 missions over Europe as a tail turret gunner (he was a short shit, the short ones got the turret spots on the crew). But if you asked him, he would say his family was his greatest achievement.

My fathers uncle was a Marine Core sniper, and saw duty on Iwo Jima. There was alot he talked about, but some things he never did.

And remember, as think about WW2, there is a new generation of soldiers, airmen sailors and marines who will define the mettle and character of our country in the decades to come.

189 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:57:12am

re: #180 USCMSNE

The bad thing is, there are people who want the US to fail. They want the US weakened. Even in our greatest economic struggle, to the author, we were still too powerful. Even during our Great Depression, it was our fault that we were too rich and powerful. These are the people that are populating the next administration. The academics, the elites. These are the people who are happy with the current turmoil in the markets. These are the people who think the current economic state is justice served. These are the people who would rather see the USA fail for no other reason than that we've been, as a nation, unapologetically successful.

A thousand up-dings.

And,

...These are the people who are happy with the current turmoil in the markets.

So they can re-make the USA in their own image.

190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:57:30am

Anybody watching the Eagles/Giants game? Refs are absolutely blind today. But it's going both ways. I've seen three (very obvious) pass interferences, no calls.

191 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:58:48am

re: #178 albusteve

as far as I know I was the only person my dad revealed his war memories to...with the exception of his brother who flew Mustangs out of England...he didnt rage or flip...just an everlasting burning hatred and surely I never held it against him...some harrowing tales tho


I had a client years ago. The guy was a Marine who fought in the Pacific.
He attended a meeting in New York. Unknown to him Japanese buissnessmen were at the meeting. He walked out, grabbed a cab to the airport & came home. Deal off! He never ever discussed what happened to him in the War.

192 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:59:23am
193 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:59:34am
194 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:00:09pm

Time to have a recording.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

195 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:00:47pm

re: #185 Nylecoj

IMO she should have, what an incredible story!

There is probably a schmaltzy movie script in there somewhere...

196 JHW  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:01:02pm

Death March

And a rejoinder for those who decry the Atomic bombings and fail to realize what was in store for both sides without their use:

Tennozan, the Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb, the author vividly lays out the story of the battle and writes with barely controlled rage about those who second guess Truman's decision. Highly recommended.

197 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:01:19pm

re: #192 buzzsawmonkey

My father did not serve in the armed forces in WWII. I am, however, proud of his role--albeit minor--in helping to create and build the device that ended what the Japanese started on this day in 1941.

He served.

198 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:01:29pm

re: #165 itellu3times

Um, have you read the review by "Aulus Gellius"?

Still, I suppose most of us know so little, it might still be enlightening.

That was enlightening. I recall something about this book from the 1970s and that review brings it all back: Pravda's History of the Great Patriotic War in Japanese.

Toland's The Rising Sun is a much better overview of the subject, BTW.

199 David IV of Georgia  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:01:43pm

re: #194 Crimsonfisted

Time to have a recording.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

A 78rpm. Look at it spin.

200 DEZes  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:01:44pm

Its a balmy 27 degrees in southern Indiana.

201 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:02:25pm

re: #191 opnion

I had a client years ago. The guy was a Marine who fought in the Pacific.
He attended a meeting in New York. Unknown to him Japanese buissnessmen were at the meeting. He walked out, grabbed a cab to the airport & came home. Deal off! He never ever discussed what happened to him in the War.

there you have it...what causes a man to lock that stuff up inside them never to be spoken?...could it be guilt or remorse?...is this a trait exclusive to that generation...my dad just blabbed out whatever I asked...cold and matter of fact...

202 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:02:33pm

re: #192 buzzsawmonkey

Cool!

My father is hearing impaired, tried to enlist three times (Korean era). Thought if he could learn the hearing test, he'd be able to fake it the second try.

203 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:02:42pm

re: #190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anybody watching the Eagles/Giants game? Refs are absolutely blind today. But it's going both ways. I've seen three (very obvious) pass interferences, no calls.

Gah. Any ref worthy of blowing his whistle is blind - its in the job description.

A good team knows how to 'play the ref' ...

204 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:02:45pm

I'm so tired of those who say we shouldn't have dropped the bomb(s) to end the war.

The US spent over two billion dollars ($24 billion in 2008 dollars) developing this new weapon, even going so far as to do things like secretly shipping 70,000,000 pounds of silver from fort Knox to be melted down into wire for the calutrons at Oak Ridge Tennessee needed to refine the uranium.

And that was just the cost in treasure. If the US was to invade the Japanese mainland, after all the Pacific island battles like Okinawa, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, etc. where the Japanese had fought to the death of the last man, the estimates of casualties for such an invasion were over a million US soldiers, and likely many more than that on the Japanese side.

Knowing all this, (as he did only after FDR died, he knew nothing of the Manhattan project before) if Truman had not used the weapon, and the American public found out after the war that he could have used it and saved all those lives, it's my belief he not only would have been impeached, but quite possibly would have been hung for treason.

Truman even gave fair warning before the first bomb was dropped, and even did so again before the second. He made the right decision, he never regretted making it.

205 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:02:48pm

re: #171 itellu3times

It's gray and cold and 59 here in Los Angeles.

Women and children are most affected, film at eleven.

Mount Washington is a balmy 6.7 degrees F, with winds out of the NW at 42.3 mph, so that the wind chill is -20F.

After reading that, all the talk about bad weather gets put in perspective.

206 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:02:57pm

Since I am still! sick (@#% flu), I think I may go on a Band of Brothers DVD Marathon. I know it's not the Pacific Front, but it reminds me why I believe as I do.

In war, the followers of an ideology will die, the ideology itself will not. The challenge will always be to get the followers to make a different choice so that the ideology atrophies. Life or Death tends to make it pretty clear.

The Japanese called us on it, we answered. May all our military be blessed.

207 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:03:43pm

re: #188 psyop

There isn't a person who's family has been here since the '30's that isn't touched by the events of WW2. You may not even know it, but somewhere there in your family, is a story. WW2 veterans are dying at a rate of about 1000 a day at this point. If you get a chance, find your family member that served, and ask them about their experience.

Write it down. This is an amazing history that should never be forgotten.

Last month, my wife watched her grandfather get put in the ground. He was an amazing man who flew 27 missions over Europe as a tail turret gunner (he was a short shit, the short ones got the turret spots on the crew). But if you asked him, he would say his family was his greatest achievement.

My fathers uncle was a Marine Core sniper, and saw duty on Iwo Jima. There was alot he talked about, but some things he never did.

And remember, as think about WW2, there is a new generation of soldiers, airmen sailors and marines who will define the mettle and character of our country in the decades to come.

My dad's father was a Marine who fought in the Pacific. He never would tell anyone what he did and saw but, he had an abiding, white-hot hatred for all things Japanese.

208 Cathypop  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:04:00pm

re: #201 albusteve

there you have it...what causes a man to lock that stuff up inside them never to be spoken?...could it be guilt or remorse?...is this a trait exclusive to that generation...my dad just blabbed out whatever I asked...cold and matter of fact...


Maybe your dad did not see what that marine and my father saw.

209 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:04:12pm

re: #192 buzzsawmonkey

My father did not serve in the armed forces in WWII. I am, however, proud of his role--albeit minor--in helping to create and build the device that ended what the Japanese started on this day in 1941.

of course...my mom built Liberators in Ypsilanti...it all counts amigo...every last little bit

210 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:04:55pm

re: #197 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He served.

Exactly My grandfathers were not in the military, but their jobs were critical to the war effort. They weren't the heroes those who served were, but they did their part.

211 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:05:02pm

re: #196 JHW

Death March

And a rejoinder for those who decry the Atomic bombings and fail to realize what was in store for both sides without their use:

Tennozan, the Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb, the author vividly lays out the story of the battle and writes with barely controlled rage about those who second guess Truman's decision. Highly recommended.

Thank you for recommending 'Tennozan'. I got it on your recommendation, and its is a huge, amazing book.
Anybody with any connection the the Marines has to read this as well.

212 baconeatingkaffir  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:05:18pm

re: #204 Yankee Division Son

I totally agree with you. I get sick of the revisionist history which tries to bring the US to the level of the axis for using the bombs. Those bombs took less lives than they saved. The Japanese did attack us (the same as the [bigoted word]s have) and in those days people had enough brains and love of country to do the right thing. These days I doubt my generation would be capable or receptive to a mass military call up "for the duration". It would take them away from their playstations and fast food or something.

213 gmsc  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:05:55pm

re: #171 itellu3times

It's gray and cold and 59 here in Los Angeles.

Women and children are most affected, film at eleven.

re: #205 lawhawk

Mount Washington is a balmy 6.7 degrees F, with winds out of the NW at 42.3 mph, so that the wind chill is -20F.

After reading that, all the talk about bad weather gets put in perspective.

If you're looking for things to get warm in early December, may I suggest trying Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941?

214 JHW  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:06:16pm

re: #211 yma o hyd

Thank you, that is truly an amazing book, and one that is never forgotten once read.

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:06:36pm

re: #205 lawhawk

Yeah. But nobody lives there.

216 Nylecoj  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:07:05pm

re: #192 buzzsawmonkey

My father did not serve in the armed forces in WWII. I am, however, proud of his role--albeit minor--in helping to create and build the device that ended what the Japanese started on this day in 1941.

That is service.

217 psyop  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:07:27pm

re: #207 MandyManners

My dad's father was a Marine who fought in the Pacific. He never would tell anyone what he did and saw but, he had an abiding, white-hot hatred for all things Japanese.

It was a tough thing to live through, and those who did were never the same. I have a lot of patience with attitudes like that when the person is a vet.

218 Rancher  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:07:56pm

re: #167 hermit
I did not know that either.

From the Guardian:

The second world war in the Pacific finally came about for many different reasons. But it was, above all, the sense of encirclement and humiliation that united the deeply divided Japanese government. Feeling defeated by a series of failed approaches to the US, including an overture to hold direct talks with Roosevelt, prime minister Fumimaro Konoe resigned on October 16, making hard-line army minister Hideki Tōjō his successor.


No, you dumb ass, it was because we didn't want to allow Japan to continue raping China. The Guardian apparently feels we should have been nicer to Japan, continue to sell them oil, steel, and other commodities so they could not only finish off the Chinese but also attack the Soviet Union. We might have survived but what would have happened to Britain under such a scenario?

219 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:08:35pm

If, perhaps, the USA had persisted with its airship program, and had not stopped with the loss of the Akron and Macon, we would have had their airship-airplane search sweeps going on west of Hawaii, and the Japanese would not have risked the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Thus illustrating the importance of spending money on "weapons development".

On the other hand, the "peace" faction in the USA was content to let the English fight the Nazis ALONE for almost TWO YEARS, so it is probably just as well.

May all the sailors soldiers and airmen rest in peace.

220 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:09:12pm

re: #208 Cathypop

Maybe your dad did not see what that marine and my father saw.

he was in a rifle platoon...he saw it all I believe...he killed and spoke of it in a lively manner...to me

221 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:09:18pm

re: #186 The Shadow Do

Thank you. Live and learn. I understood it was the first battle on Japanese home land. I did not know they saw themselves as separate. It's hard to understand how they bought into mass suicide based Japanese propaganda at the time. I'll do a little reading up on this one.

It's all good - I learn here every day -- it's why I come here.

Took me awhile to remember to say "Thank You" in Okinawan "nee hey day-boo-do" and not "domo aregato"! Any attempt Americans made to learn the Okinawan language was greeted with deep gratitude. A lovely and gracious people.

222 baconeatingkaffir  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:09:26pm

re: #201 albusteve

there you have it...what causes a man to lock that stuff up inside them never to be spoken?...could it be guilt or remorse?...is this a trait exclusive to that generation...my dad just blabbed out whatever I asked...cold and matter of fact...

Good question. My grandfather was a WWII Korea and Vietnam vet.He never did talk much about any of it.. accept for the various stories of going on leave and passes and gambling. I remember when I was a kid and I asked him once how many Germans he killed. He smacked me and told me that killing people isnt like hunting and it's not something to be proud of.
That aside, he was a deacon at church and spent ALOT of time in the garden working. I think thats how he dealt with his experiences. I had never known him to drink but once when he visited me in Germany I came upon the sight of him and a German guy of the same age sitting at a cafe drinking beer. He didnt speak German!

223 DistantThunder  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:09:29pm

Pearl Harbor Hero: Mervyn Bennion

Editor’s Notes: Captain Bennion was the first Latter-day Saint to receive the Medal of Honor during World War II. The destroyer, USS Bennion, was named for Captain Bennion and was launched July 4, 1943.

Captain Bennion’s story is included in the film Pearl Harbor and his is the only readable name in the makeshift morgue seen in the movie.

A graduate of the Naval Academy at Annapolis, Mervyn was a distinguished naval officer and captain of the USS West Virginia. Married to a daughter of President J. Reuben Clark of the First Presidency, Mervyn was one of the earliest American Latter-day Saint casualties of the war. For his heroism at Pearl Harbor, he was posthumously awarded his nation’s highest military award, the Medal of Honor. The following is an excerpt from an account written by Mervyn’s brother, Howard. This account is based on eyewitness interviews.

Sunday, December 7, 1941, at a few minutes before eight, Mervyn was in his cabin shaving preparatory to leaving the ship to go to Sunday School and fast meeting in Honolulu when a sailor on watch from the bridge nearby dashed in to report a Japanese air attack approaching at hand. Mervyn instantly gave the commands, “Japanese Air Attack! To your battle stations!”

Then he ran to his own—the conning tower on the flag bridge. There he verified the readiness of the several gun crews, the preparations for bringing up ammunition from the holds, the preparedness of the other elements of the ships’ crew for their roles in action. In a minute Japanese torpedo planes flew in close from the outside, letting go three torpedoes that struck the West Virginia in rapid succession, tearing a great hole in the exposed side. Almost simultaneously Japanese bombers flew overhead, barely clearing the masts and hit the West Virginia, once in the region already damaged by the aerial torpedoes and once a deadly blow into the magazine. Fortunately that bomb did not explode; otherwise, the ship would have been blown up as was the Arizona, immediately astern the West Virginia.

When the first fury of the attack was over, Mervyn, anxious to see better what had happened to his ship and the guns and gun crews before giving orders to meet the developments, stepped out of the door at the rear of the conning tower and started around the lateral walk to the flag bridge. He had scarcely taken two steps when he was hit by a splinter from a bomb, evidently dropped from a high level and exploding on a turret of the battleship Tennessee alongside the West Virginia. This splinter tore off the top of his stomach and apparently a fragment hit his spine and the left hip, for he lost the use of his legs, and the hip appeared to be damaged. He fell to the floor of the walk, got on his back, and with nerves of steel put back in place the entrails that had spilled out.

Con't...

224 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:10:01pm

re: #219 Ojoe

But don't forget the Americans who went to Canada to enlist in the RAF. Ironic, isn't, that thirty years later men were going their to evade the draft.

225 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:10:24pm

re: #211 yma o hyd

My dad, P-38 pilot in the Pacific, said he and his buddies to a man did not expect to survive the invasion of the Japanese home islands.

He had already lost his only brother in the war.

I am glad we used the bomb.

226 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:11:00pm

re: #218 Rancher

I did not know that either.

From the Guardian:

The second world war in the Pacific finally came about for many different reasons. But it was, above all, the sense of encirclement and humiliation that united the deeply divided Japanese government. Feeling defeated by a series of failed approaches to the US, including an overture to hold direct talks with Roosevelt, prime minister Fumimaro Konoe resigned on October 16, making hard-line army minister Hideki Tōjō his successor.

No, you dumb ass, it was because we didn't want to allow Japan to continue raping China. The Guardian apparently feels we should have been nicer to Japan, continue to sell them oil, steel, and other commodities so they could not only finish off the Chinese but also attack the Soviet Union. We might have survived but what would have happened to Britain under such a scenario?

It's the Grauniad. Factual truth is somewhat beyond their expertise, and would, at any rate, interfere with social "progress" as they see it.

227 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:11:05pm

Thank you, The US of A and all the men who fought and died for the freedom of the West, for keeping the Pacific free, for the ultimate sacrifice many of your sons made that I can enjoy a free New Zealand.

Fuck you, you worthless apologists, who think that our enemies can be appeased and satisfied by soft talk and capitulation. Your talk is exactly how not stay free.

228 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:11:15pm

re: #214 JHW

Thank you, that is truly an amazing book, and one that is never forgotten once read.

Indeed.
And the descriptions of the various small battles on Okinawa make anybody who reads them truly appreciate what those Marines went through - and the Okinawans as well.
And he also has the generosity of spirit to describe the hell the Japanese lived in, during this whole battle.
A truly great book.

229 DistantThunder  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:11:27pm

Pearl Harbor Hero: Mervyn Bennion..continued

In a minute or so his plight was observed, and a pharmacist’s mate came to place a bandage over the abdomen and to try to ease the pain. It was clear to him and undoubtedly to Mervyn that the wound was beyond any hope of mending, though Mervyn said not a word to indicate he knew he was dying. As soon as the wound was given the simplest dressing, Mervyn sent the man below to work with the wounded and refused to be attended further while there was work to be done.

As men and officers came to him he briefly asked what was transpiring and gave orders and instructions to meet conditions as they arose. The well-trained crew knew their duties thoroughly. It was easy for him to exercise control. The ship was well handled to prevent capsizing and to keep damage from fire to a minimum. Admiral Furlong, one of the commanders at Pearl Harbor, gave the West Virginia’s guns credit for bringing down twenty or thirty Japanese planes. Only two lives were lost from the ship’s complement of officers and men—Mervyn and one seaman.

The wounded were attended to promptly and evacuated from the ship with dispatch. Mervyn was courageous and cheerful to the last moment of consciousness, and his spirit was reflected in the conduct of his crew. When the first attack was over he allowed himself to be placed on a cot and the cot to be moved under a protecting shelter on the deck. There he remained during the second Japanese attack which occurred an hour after the first one. He resisted all efforts to remove him from the bridge with a firmness and vigor that astonished officers who thought they knew him well, but did not realize how much force there lay behind his gentle ways.

con't...

230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:11:34pm

re: #207 MandyManners

My dad's father was a Marine who fought in the Pacific. He never would tell anyone what he did and saw but, he had an abiding, white-hot hatred for all things Japanese.

My father in law was in Korea, Chosin Reservoir. Very religious man, last three cars he has purchased have been Korean.

Hasn't come out an said so, but I am certain it is about atonement.

Well, theres that, and he's a cheap bastard (love him dearly) and they make a good cheap car.

231 DistantThunder  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:12:13pm

Pearl Harbor Hero: Mervyn Bennion con't...

He talked only of the ship and the men, how the fight was going, what guns were out of action, how to get them in operation again, casualties in the gun crews and how to replace them, who was wounded, what care the wounded were receiving and provisions for evacuating them from the ship, the fate of other ships, the number of enemy planes shot down, the danger of fire from burning oil drifting around the West Virginia from the exploded Arizona, satisfaction over the handling of the ship, satisfaction with effectiveness of the gun crews in shooting down attacking planes, and satisfaction with the conduct under fire of officers and men of his ship. His only expression of regrets were of horror for the treachery of the Japanese and of concern because of this paralyzing loss of warships.

Thus passed an hour and a half. About 9:30 A.M. fire broke out in the kitchen, lockers, and officers’ quarters beneath the flag bridge and began to envelop it in stifling black smoke and bursts of flame. This cut off from escape Mervyn, Lieutenant Commander Ricketts, a pharmacist’s mate, and Lieutenant Commander White, whom he had permitted to stay with him. Mervyn had grown weaker from continuous loss of blood. The officers tied him on a ladder and twice tried to lower him to the deck below to get him away from the fire.

The aft part of the ship was free of fire, but the smoke and flames swept over the forward deck to make it impossible for men to receive him. At this point the smoke and flame on the flag bridge became so terrible that all of the small group concluded their end had come, but just as they were being overpowered by suffocation, a small gust of wind came seemingly out of nowhere and gave them air and vision. Quickly they seized Mervyn and by superhuman effort carried hum up a ladder to the navigation bridge to a corner at the rear that seemed to be free from smoke. While being carried up the ladder he had lost consciousness, but as soon as they laid him out flat on the bridge floor, the blood returned to his head, and he told them to leave him and save themselves if that was possible. They made him as comfortable as they could and leaving the pharmacist’s mate at his side the two officers spent the next half hour trying unsuccessfully to put out the fire. Twenty minutes after they left Mervyn, the mate reported that Mervyn had slumped over and breathed, “I’m gone.”

232 dmandman  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:12:16pm

Best Pearl Harbor story I ever heard was from a Junior High Math teacher that I had. It starts out as a fishing story. He was a boy about 12 at the time with his Father and Uncle had just gone for a Sunday morning of fishing in a small motor boat. They had just dropped their lines into the water when they heard a lot of aircraft overhead. His uncle looked up and said "hey those aren't ours". Yes he was fishing in Pearl Harbor on that December day. His father and uncle were officers in the Army stationed at Pearl and they were taking some time off. They high dropped the fishing lines and immediately went to shore. My teacher said they got ashore with no problem, but saw off in distance (and heard) several ships getting hit. He never expanded on that incident after telling that one story in class.

233 Rancher  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:12:18pm

re: #221 hermit

I was under the impresion Okinawan's wanted the USMC off their island?

234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:13:21pm

re: #203 yma o hyd

Howabout, "More blind than usual."?

235 davinvalkri  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:13:38pm

re: #4 Yankee Division Son

PATTON! Yes! We could use more men like him nowadays; people with guts, people who know the fastest way to win a war is to break your enemy's will by maximizing damage to him!

236 blangwort  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:13:42pm

re: #35 Cognito

An absolute shame about her.

In the interest of digging yourself out of the hole you're in, would you mind explaining that quote?

237 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:13:44pm

The Japanese had every opportunity to avoid war with the US, and with our allies. They chose instead to launch a war of aggression against the Chinese, the Australians, British, Dutch, and the Americans in nearly simultaneous attacks on Allied military bases around the Pacific.

What gets lost in the Pearl Harbor attacks is that the Japanese planned multiple attacks within a week of the Pearl attack; indeed multiple targets coinciding with the Pearl attack on the 7th:

December 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, Hawaii; also attack the Philippines, Wake Island, Guam, Malaya, Thailand, Shanghai and Midway.
December 8, 1941 - U.S. and Britain declare war on Japan. Japanese land near Singapore and enter Thailand.
December 9, 1941 - China declares war on Japan.
December 10, 1941 - Japanese invade the Philippines and also seize Guam.
December 11, 1941 - Japanese invade Burma.
December 15, 1941 - First Japanese merchant ship sunk by a U.S. submarine.
December 16, 1941 - Japanese invade British Borneo.
December 18, 1941 - Japanese invade Hong Kong.
December 22, 1941 - Japanese invade Luzon in the Philippines.So, within two weeks of the Pearl Harbor attack, the Japanese attacked everywhere from Borneo and Hong Kong to Mayasia, Midway, Thailand, Borneo, Burma and the Philippines.

That's not the sign of a nation that is looking to avoid war, but one that was intent upon carrying out its plans regardless of what the US did. The range of targets was designed to take the Pacific in one fell swoop and to knock the Allies off kilter at a time when they were focused on the European theater.

Also keep in mind that the Japanese had been waging war in China since 1937.

238 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:14:22pm

re: #233 Rancher

I was under the impresion Okinawan's wanted the USMC off their island?

Uh... then or now?

239 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:14:46pm
240 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:14:51pm

re: #222 baconeatingkaffir

Good question. My grandfather was a WWII Korea and Vietnam vet.He never did talk much about any of it.. accept for the various stories of going on leave and passes and gambling. I remember when I was a kid and I asked him once how many Germans he killed. He smacked me and told me that killing people isnt like hunting and it's not something to be proud of.
That aside, he was a deacon at church and spent ALOT of time in the garden working. I think thats how he dealt with his experiences. I had never known him to drink but once when he visited me in Germany I came upon the sight of him and a German guy of the same age sitting at a cafe drinking beer. He didnt speak German!

ha!...a decent man all around...blood and guts is not for everyone...my father and I were exceptionally close...he executed wounded soldiers point blank and I know that bothered him a great deal... I never heard him speak about the war to anyone else

241 doriangrey  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:15:12pm

re: #236 blangwort

In the interest of digging yourself out of the hole you're in, would you mind explaining that quote?

Apparently she committed suicide.

242 Rancher  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:15:19pm

re: #226 Spiny Norman

It's the Grauniad. Factual truth is somewhat beyond their expertise, and would, at any rate, interfere with social "progress" as they see it.


Grauniad? Where does that come from?

243 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:15:50pm

re: #155 yma o hyd

thank you!

244 davinvalkri  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:16:37pm

re: #237 lawhawk

re: #239 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you lawhawk, for that insightful timeline of non-revisionist history regarding Japanese imperialism.

And although this will probably get me screamed at by everyone I know, thank God for the Atom Bomb!

245 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:16:53pm

re: #225 Ojoe

My dad, P-38 pilot in the Pacific, said he and his buddies to a man did not expect to survive the invasion of the Japanese home islands.

He had already lost his only brother in the war.

I am glad we used the bomb.

certainly and any other point of view is pseudo intellectual piffle...it had to be done

246 jaunte  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:17:02pm

Pearl Harbor is still inspiring a younger generation.
Two years ago one of my daughters, working in Hawaii for the summer, visited the Arizona memorial and was inspired to join the Army.
She told us she wanted to "do her part to defend the country."

247 Dianna  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:17:39pm

re: #236 blangwort

In the interest of digging yourself out of the hole you're in, would you mind explaining that quote?

Excuse me?

Iris Chang, a fine author and person, took her own life a couple years after The Rape of Nanking was published.

Cog's not in a hole.

248 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:17:53pm

re: #239 buzzsawmonkey

We were expecting to have doubled our WW2 casualties before we finished with Japan. England was going to send what it had left of its WW2 generation to help, and all the purple heart medals given out to this day were minted in anticipation of the losses we would have sustained invading Japan.

Much about this in W. Churchill's book, "Triumph and Tragedy".

249 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:18:02pm

I had a dear old friend and mentor with a company I worked for. Ray had flown fighters in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. We were mandated to attend training in TQ with all its intendant Japanese jargon. At the time, the Japanese were considered the ideal business model.

10 minutes in the presenter began extolling the virtues of the Japanese. Ray declared loudly - This is bullshit, I fought my ass off against Mitsubishi, et all.

He walked out and caught the next plane home. A few of us stood up and cheered old Ray. A real hero. No one ever said a word to Ray after that, as though it never happened. He went on to a very comfortable retirement - Good for you Ray!

250 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:18:18pm

re: #225 Ojoe

My dad, P-38 pilot in the Pacific, said he and his buddies to a man did not expect to survive the invasion of the Japanese home islands.

He had already lost his only brother in the war.

I am glad we used the bomb.

Yes.
Stripped of all the leftist propaganda of today - it was the right and only decision.
What moonbats tend to overlook is that those two bombs did not just save the lies of countless American soldiers, it saved the lives of millions of Japanese as well, Japanese who would have been sacrificed by the military overlords, without mercy - as were the Okinawans.

251 Norm Chumpsky  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:18:24pm

A proud salute to those good men and women. May we be ever vigilant in the future.

I just went out and gave my '87 Mitsubishi p/u a kick for good measure...

252 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:19:18pm

re: #236 blangwort

In the interest of digging yourself out of the hole you're in, would you mind explaining that quote?

read the thread...it's embarrasing to pile on and miss the pile...

253 anat  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:19:33pm

The comments to the Grauniad article are quite interesting.
My favourite:

Bitterweed
Dec 07 08, 7:11pm (about 1 hour ago)
It was an Israeli plot.
254 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:20:39pm

re: #234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Howabout, "More blind than usual."?

Aww - as long as they are more blind than usual regarding both teams ...
It only gets bad when they play (whistle!) for the opponents as well

255 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:20:43pm

re: #250 yma o hyd

The bomb is latent in the very structure of the universe, in the periodic table and the laws of physics, and IMHO it was put there by God for some very specific reasons.

256 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:20:47pm

re: #219 Ojoe

If, perhaps, the USA had persisted with its airship program, and had not stopped with the loss of the Akron and Macon, we would have had their airship-airplane search sweeps going on west of Hawaii, and the Japanese would not have risked the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Airship searches? With the advent of radar, airships were way past obsolescence. And no, there wouldn't have searches. 20/20 hindsight today makes it seem obvious, but no one, I repeat, no one was expecting an attack at Pearl Harbor. Manila, maybe. British Malaysia, almost certainly, the Dutch East Indies, absolutely, but not so far away from Japan as Hawaii. Our government did not believe Japan had the capability of launching simultaneous assaults on that many targets. That Imperial Japan was about to attack was expected at any moment, but not at Pearl Harbor.

257 hermit  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:22:05pm

Must go to bed and get well now, Later Lizards!

258 debutaunt  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:22:09pm

re: #169 albusteve

a balmy 58 here in the Rio Grande Valley!

Lovely 62 here in the Santa Cruz mountains.

259 WindHorse  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:22:41pm

My dad was in medical school back on this day in 1941. He had met the woman who would become my mom two days earlier.

My dad tells how one day during the next week at school, some one from the med school came in with a representative from the US Army. The Dean (or whoever it was) told the class that they had two options, either volunteer for the army or... and he let it trail off.

Within a minute a line had formed and everyone of those 72 men enlisted.

My sincere and humblest gratitude to those men and everyone who has served this country since.

260 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:22:58pm

re: #256 Spiny Norman

Airship searches? With the advent of radar, airships were way past obsolescence. And no, there wouldn't have searches. 20/20 hindsight today makes it seem obvious, but no one, I repeat, no one was expecting an attack at Pearl Harbor. Manila, maybe. British Malaysia, almost certainly, the Dutch East Indies, absolutely, but not so far away from Japan as Hawaii. Our government did not believe Japan had the capability of launching simultaneous assaults on that many targets. That Imperial Japan was about to attack was expected at any moment, but not at Pearl Harbor.

the perverse brilliance of it...jus sayin

261 baconeatingkaffir  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:23:03pm

Just outta curiousity why havent we hunted Japanese war criminals as much as we have German? Whats with that?

262 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:23:32pm

re: #225 Ojoe

My dad, P-38 pilot in the Pacific, said he and his buddies to a man did not expect to survive the invasion of the Japanese home islands.

He had already lost his only brother in the war.

I am glad we used the bomb.

Me too. My dad was in at the onset and managed to survive in a setting in which his bomb group suffered 90% casualties (the most decorated unit in the war). He was in training to take part in the Japan invasion when the bombs were dropped. Why can not goofball lefties see this stuff? It's confounding to me.

263 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:23:56pm

re: #258 debutaunt

Lovely 62 here in the Santa Cruz mountains.

break out the sun block!

264 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:24:59pm

re: #256 Spiny Norman

The airships could run a search pattern by launching and recovering airplanes & could way out-search the radar of the time, covering many thousands of square miles.

There were plans to patrol way out in the pacific with the airships which could stay aloft for days at a time.

It's pretty obscure history I admit.

265 JHW  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:26:31pm

re: #250 yma o hyd

Another interesting thing I learned from that book, not well known to us Americans, is that the Royal Navy, Task Force 57, had also participated in the sea battles around Okinawa. Their carriers, unlike US ones, had flight decks of reinforced steel rather than teakwood and kamikaze hits did far less damage to them whereas some of the attacks on US carriers turned into infernos.

266 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:26:37pm
267 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:26:41pm

re: #262 The Shadow Do

Why can not goofball lefties see this stuff?

Because of idiocy.

BBL

268 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:26:48pm
269 jorline  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:27:40pm
The high-handed tone of the Hull Note of November 26, demanding Japan's withdrawal of all its troops from China, was a final blow to the moderates in Japan's government, who still hoped for diplomatic negotiations. By this time, many policymakers were convinced that the US was not ready to hear them out. It was ultimately in the name of saving Asia for all Asians from what was regarded as western arrogance that the government united to wage war. On December 1, it was decided that the war would commence in six days.

At this time in history Japan was but a small innocent and peaceful country.
//

They had been at war since 1937 with China.
The war that was never declared.

Most historians place the beginning of the Second Sino-Japanese War on July 7, 1937 at the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, when a crucial access point to Beiping (Beijing) was assaulted by the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA). Because the Chinese defenders were the poorly equipped infantry divisions of the former Northwest Army, the Japanese easily captured Beiping and Tianjin.

Building on the hard won victory in Shanghai, by the end of 1937 the IJA captured the KMT capital city of Nanjing and Southern Shanxi in campaigns involving approximately 350,000 Japanese soldiers, and considerably more Chinese soldiers. Historians estimate up to 300,000 people perished in the Nanking Massacre, after the fall of Nanjing on December 13, 1937, while some Japanese historians wrongly deny the existence of a massacre.

Nanking Massacre

I guess it was the arrogance of Chinese that lead to their invasion by Japan.

270 opnion  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:27:50pm

re: #201 albusteve

there you have it...what causes a man to lock that stuff up inside them never to be spoken?...could it be guilt or remorse?...is this a trait exclusive to that generation...my dad just blabbed out whatever I asked...cold and matter of fact...

The guy neverf discussed hi attitude toward the Japanese, but it was strong.

271 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:28:01pm

re: #261 baconeatingkaffir

Just outta curiousity why havent we hunted Japanese war criminals as much as we have German? Whats with that?

Yeah - and another question - it seems that a lot of Brits and American soldiers who fought against the Germans in WWII are ok - and have been for a long time - with meeting their old German foes, but not the Japanese.
That is also an interesting question.

Btw - British soldiers were treated absolutely disgustinlgy and totally inhumanely as POWS by the Japanese, far far worse than in any German POW camp.

272 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:28:06pm

re: #237 lawhawk

The next time anyone hears the word 'Imperilsism' they need to take a look back at Japan circa 1940. That is what the word means. It does not, most certainly, mean America.

273 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:28:21pm

re: #261 baconeatingkaffir

Just outta curiousity why havent we hunted Japanese war criminals as much as we have German? Whats with that?

few survived...they hung Tojo...most field commanders perished one exception was the general who trashed Manilla...he was caught but cut a deal with McAurther...the made a movie about it...Nazies fled like rats and the hunt was on...remind you I'm no expert...hari kari was a huge part of Shintoism

274 baconeatingkaffir  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:28:32pm

My grandad who enlisted at the ripe age of 15 (using his older brothers birth certificate) and who had fought his way across europe with patton's 6th Armored Division said that he and his friends cried "happy tears" when they heard that the two bombs had been dropped. They were slated to be in on the invasion of Japan and not one of them expected to survive it. That was a pretty harsh thing for my to hear from him. Join the army at 15 a battlefield commission at 19. He was always sort of a role model and mentor for me. I think the harshness of the depression is what prepared that generation for the war. Grandad used to talk about his first new shoes he got in the army. (no joke!) all the others had been handmedowns from cousins and brothers.

275 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:29:18pm

re: #261 baconeatingkaffir

Just outta curiousity why havent we hunted Japanese war criminals as much as we have German? Whats with that?

Swept under the rug in the struggle against Communism.

276 baconeatingkaffir  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:31:10pm

re: #275 The Shadow Do

Yeah but the Japanese to my knowledge havent paid reparations as the Germans have. One of the guys in my grandads sunday school class was a POW in Germany who was working at one of the Siemens plants or something like that and he got a check from them every so often.

277 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:31:28pm

re: #270 opnion

The guy neverf discussed hi attitude toward the Japanese, but it was strong.

we were discussing hate last night...I leave it to the bearers of the scares and let it go at that...it is not for me to judge

278 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:31:46pm

re: #265 JHW

Another interesting thing I learned from that book, not well known to us Americans, is that the Royal Navy, Task Force 57, had also participated in the sea battles around Okinawa. Their carriers, unlike US ones, had flight decks of reinforced steel rather than teakwood and kamikaze hits did far less damage to them whereas some of the attacks on US carriers turned into infernos.

Yeah - now that you mention it, I remember that as well.
Can't have been due to the experiences of the Battles in the Atlantic - must have been some quirky Royal Navy construction chief insisting on it before the war ...

279 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:32:01pm
280 astronmr20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:32:19pm

re: #201 albusteve

there you have it...what causes a man to lock that stuff up inside them never to be spoken?...could it be guilt or remorse?...is this a trait exclusive to that generation...my dad just blabbed out whatever I asked...cold and matter of fact...

Everyone deals with it differently.

281 JHW  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:33:33pm

re: #278 yma o hyd

I believe it was in remembrance of some of their experiences in WW1 at the Battle of Jutland that influenced their naval construction.

282 yma o hyd  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:34:08pm

Going upstairs ...

283 albusteve  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:35:29pm

re: #276 baconeatingkaffir

Yeah but the Japanese to my knowledge havent paid reparations as the Germans have. One of the guys in my grandads sunday school class was a POW in Germany who was working at one of the Siemens plants or something like that and he got a check from them every so often.

and they probably wont...they have been very slow to come to terms with their past...they did cop to the korean sex girl thing as I recall but only under enormous pressure...they know what they did tho

284 leereyno  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:38:43pm

Lefties love to whine about the atomic bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I have no sympathy. I would not shed a single tear had we carpet bombed the entire country and exterminated 80% of the population. Winning a war means destroying the enemy. In war, there are no innocents. There is no such thing as a non-combatant. There are only active combatants, and reserves in civilian clothing. Kill as many as you can as often as you can. Repeat until all of your enemies are dead, or they surrender totally and unconditionally. There is no such thing as a limited war. If your objective is not the complete and utter destruction of your enemy then you should just stay home. Anything less is playing to lose. In war, the only moral question is who won. You do whatever will help you win, and avoid doing anything that helps you lose. This is what we did in Japan, and it worked beautifully.

In the long run this approach saves lives. A nation that has filled many graveyards will tend to be one that its enemies work to stay on the good side of.

285 NYCHardhat  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:39:57pm

Our last great generation. I am so proud of them. Thank you.

286 Silhouette  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:42:51pm

re: #253 anat

The comments to the Grauniad article are quite interesting.
My favourite:

I blame global warming.

287 jorline  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:43:10pm

re: #279 Iron Fist

The Chinese were interfering with the Japanese divine rights. It's very similar to the way the Jihadis get about American interference in their destiny to rule the world.

excellent parallel, Iron. Wait until the history books recall 9/11 twenty from now

288 [deleted]  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:43:50pm
289 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:43:56pm

re: #284 leereyno

Our military has always tried, when possible, to observe the Geneva Conventions, to minimize trauma and suffering of civilians. The use of terror tactics, by our enemies, sometimes muddies the rules of engagement.

War is all hell. I think I take your point on this matter--but IMHO you overstate. The first nuclear bomb did not cause the ruling military to surrender. Incredible fanaticism, that required the second.

It was a tragedy, we won as we had to win.

290 Spar Kling  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:46:00pm

Please note that I read this in college many years ago, but I'm having trouble finding an online source for this information and I'm relying on my memory.

In 1941, the World Court (Permanent Court of International Justice) in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor condemned The United States (!) for its policies including an iron and oil embargo that constricted the growth of the anachronistic Japanese colonial empire in Southeast Asia and Manchuria. The court's opinion stated that under the same circumstances, even a country such as Lichtenstein would have attacked the U.S. Note that Japan's GDP at the time was about the same as that of Italy.

My observations . . .

- International politics are tightly linked to economics and are complicated.

- Even before WWII, internationalist, quasi-governmental organizations such a the World Court were prejudiced against the U.S. We should never allow ourselves to be subject to any of them.

- Governments respond to failure with brute force, but always try to make their case to their people that they are an unfortunate victim or protecting one. Sometimes it's even more or less true!

- The innocent always suffer, whether they are American sailors burned alive on ships in Pearl Harbor or American citizens in California forceably relocated to concentration camps.

My heartfelt sympathy goes out to the memories of the victims of Pearl Harbor and those that lost their lives in the war that followed.

Conversely, Pearl Harbor should also be a memorial against the wealthy and powerful of the world who initiate most wars out of their greed and lust for more power, but never accept responsibility for the carnage that follows.

-sk

291 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:48:05pm

re: #235 davinvalkri

PATTON! Yes! We could use more men like him nowadays; people with guts, people who know the fastest way to win a war is to break your enemy's will by maximizing damage to him!

I tend to agree. For all his failings, I believe he was the right man at the right time.

My Father personally thought he was a bit of a nut, perhaps liked war a little too much, and was a pompous primadonna. (which Patton himself would freely admit to)

As a military commander, however, my Dad told me he would have wanted non other leading him through Europe.

One of the stories he told me was being ordered to attend one of Patton's apology speeches for having slapped the solider in the hospital. He said they made everyone leave their weapons outside, for fear someone might shoot him.

292 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:51:44pm

This is one thread that I am sad to be late to.

With such revisionism in place, the left can now allege that the US attacked the Germans wrongly since they had noting to do with Pearl Harbor.

Mirrors "The US attacked Iraq wrongly because they had nothing to do with 9/11."

293 debutaunt  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:54:45pm

re: #263 albusteve

break out the sun block!

It's beautiful - mostly redwoods and one huge maple with leaves turning a deep orange.

294 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 12:58:46pm

There are some sad similarities between the militaristic bushido cult of the Japanese military class during the Second World War and the present fanatical warrior-death-cult we face today. History really does not repeat itself, but it resembles itself. Like a dog to its vomit, the fool returns to folly.

295 JHW  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:03:11pm

re: #292 karmic_inquisitor

One of the things your comment puts me in mind of is the often repeated statement by some "that the winners get to write the history". I cringe every time I see it repeated. Japan is still regularly taken to task for its failure to own up to its responsibility for the war in its school textbooks, mostly by the Chinese and Koreans. Nobody stopped multitudes of Germans, such as Guderian, von Manstein or Albert Speer from writing their apologetics either and I dont believe they were censored by the victors. IIRC correctly Thucydides wrote about the Peloponnesian War, he was from the losing side and the Spartans didn't suppress his writings. Anyway, I completely agree with your statement, there will always be attempts at revisionism, losing side or not.There is no shortage of uncensored writings and justifications by multitudes of losers in wars.

296 Joan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:17:08pm

re: #275 The Shadow Do

Swept under the rug in the struggle against Communism.


Good point. Probably no organized and active remembrance groups have followed through with it.

A few military prison camp commanders were hanged at the time of the fall of Japan and Allied occupation, I believe. Some very neatly disemboweled themselves, as a true samurai is supposed to have done.

More recently, some were prosecuted for bacteriological warfare experiments conducted on POWs. There is an ongoing struggle to insist that Japanese not revise history, the struggle led by a handful of Japanese as well as nations victimized during WWII.

To my mind, Pearl Harbor was a day to live in infamy. However, the melted and incinerated civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid with blood and horror for that casus belli. We won. Thanks be for that, and let us never forget the suffering of our armed forces to defeat the bushido death cult. Thank you to all my tall, big-boned, loud and loving old uncles who fought in the Pacific, and drank and swore and came home to raise families and go on living, without hate, afterwards.

297 Osama Bin Porkchop  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:20:53pm

Naive, moronic POS's - and Eri Hotta is their king...

298 Areopagitica  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:27:15pm

I like how this article conveniently disregards the fact that Japan invaded China, committed some of the most outrageous crimes against humanity against the Chinese, while taking over and setting up a puppet government in Manchuria.

History is clear that the Militarists backed by the Japanese army wanted to control all of Asia and saw themselves as a superior race to other Asian peoples. The Navy didn't want to go along with it and Yamamoto tried vehemently to persuade the Japanese Government not to go to war with the U.S. and disliked the Rome-Tokyo-Berlin axis. Members of the IJN were targeted for assassination by army and militarist organizations as well.

So by the end of 1941, the Japanese weren't going to leave China and other parts of Asia, the Japanese knew the U.S. would oppose any further expansion of the empire and no amount of diplomacy was going to stop that. The U.S> Navy had to be neutralized to allow the Japanese to attack and solidify their hold on the Dutch East Indies so that the Army and Navy could have access to oil and other materials that the U.S> had been importing to Japan until the embargo began. The Japanese launched the attack on Dec. 7-8th on Pearl Harbor and the East Indies. The U.S. didn't launch a preemptive strike. That's a huge frickin difference if the author is trying to compare this to Iraq.

Man I hate these moral relativists and their "we should accomodate the aggressors" approach.

Japan may have disliked the outcomes of the 5-5-3 plan coming out of the London and Washington naval agreements, but it undertook the conversion and later construction of warships that violated those agreements so it wasn't exactly victimized. The Army was always expanding, so they were far from being victims.

299 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:28:07pm

Army Gen. Eric K. Shinseki has been appointed to head the department of veterans affairs. Interesting that the story come out 12-7.

And I'd say there is nothing wrong with someone of Japanese descent in this position at this time. Proof that all things must pass eh?

300 jcbunga  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:30:04pm

My dad was 11 years old growing up near Detroit. He remembers the adults listening to the radio and not knowing where Pearl Harbor was. One said "I know where Japan is, that's all we need. Let's go."

That's the spirit.

301 jcbunga  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:34:13pm

...and by the way, nobody said this was merely our chickens coming home to roost.

302 Rancher  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:44:05pm

re: #238 hermit

Uh... then or now?

Now.

303 DEZes  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:14:42pm

All I can do is offer a silent prayer and a great deal of gratitude to those who have served, are serving and who have given their all for this great nation.

304 Sloppy  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:19:08pm

I was seven at the time of Pearl Harbor, and recall that a little girl in my school was terrified that the Japanese would bomb our isolated little farming community in Iowa. I thought then, and still do, that her parents were cruel and irresponsible for not reassuring her with an elementary geography lesson. Incidentally, some 20 years later I married that girl. By then she knew where Pearl Harbor was.

305 Spiny Norman  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:35:42pm

re: #25 astronmr20

God.. there is a bad crazy amongst us. Watching the second link, and the comments are muddied by someone ranting about how this and everything else evil in the world is the fault of the Jews. Incredible.

The comments on the second vid are just bad crazy, as you say; that anti-semitic dickwad is just one of many.

306 Crusty  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:37:07pm

Has anyone debriefed former senator 0bama on WWII yet? Last I heard he said Japan dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor.

307 Robert L  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:40:09pm

Today on a very PC NY Radio News Station I listened to the following, "Dec 7 commemorates the "RAID" on Pear Harbor." No mention of who was involved, the resulting attack, bombing and destruction of Pearl, it was all reduced to a "Raid".

308 Paul  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:46:57pm

That Guardian article is absurd and contemptible. It's nothing more than a Reverend Wright style "chickens coming home to roost" apology for the murderous imperialism of Japan. So typical of today's Left.

*Spit*

309 shiplord kirel  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:49:05pm

There were legitimate historical reasons for Japan to feel humiliated on the eve of war. The gunboat diplomacy that resulted in the opening of Japan and unequal treaties in the mid-19th century was but a beginning.

More immediately, the Great Depression and the subsequent compartmentalisation of the world into economic blocs also worked to the advantage of the already powerful. Coupled with the economic hardship of the interwar years were instances of racial prejudice in the US that aimed at preventing Japanese immigration. United by this long-simmering and humiliating sense of exclusion, Japanese policymakers, whatever their differences, stumbled toward the December 1 decision to go to war.

With almost 70 years of hindsight, Pearl Harbor should offer some lessons for US foreign policy today. Despite obvious differences between Pearl Harbor and recent Islamist terrorist tactics, they show the common desire of self-proclaimed Davids to topple their Goliaths in a clearly lop-sided battle. These Davids depend on western technologies to overcome imbalances of power, and are driven by a sense of real or imagined humiliation.

This is a breathtaking example of ruthless propaganda confidently exploiting historical illiteracy. Given their own imperial ambitions, the Japanese could scarcely have resented the opening of their country by Commodore Perry in the 1850s, which never involved actual force anyway. There were no "Unequal Treaties" with Japan, that was an issue in China and Japan itself was one of the beneficiaries and exploiters. Finally, it was Japan, not the US, that was the Goliath of Asia and the Pacific during the Depression, conducting a barbarous war of aggression in China that was scarcely mitigated by years of diplomatic pressure.
It is truly frightening that Al Guardian's mostly educated and middle-class audience would be ignorant to believe a word of this nonsense.

310 Pietr  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 2:53:34pm

re: #298 Areopagitica

I have to concur, and expand, on your post. I was very into WWII when I was a child, because Dad would not talk about it. But I've also covered the history of the Japan/China/Korean conflicts-which have gone on for centuries.

Yes the NASTY USA shut off oil and scrap metal to Japan in 1941. That is called DIPLOMACY; we were trying to get them to STOP their expansionism thru out Asia. WHAt I HAVEN'T SEEN posted here, is that the Japanese restricted 1 area of their country, 1-2 yrs. b4 Pearl Harbor. The Reason-they made it a duplicate of Pearl to TRAIN their pilots for the ATTACK-they already had it PLANNED. their MAJOR screwup was that they tried to dleiver their 'War Declaration' to the President just MINUTES b4 they attacked-so they could be considered guiltless. The Embassy staff screwed it up, and so we were given notice after our people had already died. This is HISTORY-I will let all research it themselves-I did. Thank God for the "American Spirit', which seems to always come forth. God Bless the USA.

311 Paul  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 3:01:27pm

In 1941 Japan was not a victim of gunboat diplomacy, it was a perpetrator of it.

1. Annexation of Formosa 1898
2. Annexation of southern Sakhalin 1905
3. Annexation of Korea 1910
4. Annexation of Manchuria 1933
5. Invasion of China 1937
6. Occupation of Indo-China 1940/1
7. Pearl Harbor and the launching of the Pacific War, December 7, 1941

312 Bear  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 3:25:32pm

It is a bit late to again make comments about the A-Bomb on Japan but a good number of you mentioned that the Bomb saved many lives.

As a green replacement in one of the Infantry Divisions scheduled to make the initial landings on the Japanese Mainland. we were told to expect 80% casualties.

313 leereyno  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 3:28:45pm

re: #299 cincinnati_kid37

Army Gen. Eric K. Shinseki has been appointed to head the department of veterans affairs. Interesting that the story come out 12-7.

And I'd say there is nothing wrong with someone of Japanese descent in this position at this time. Proof that all things must pass eh?

Especially since the concept of ethnic guilt is complete horseshit. I don't care if Yamamoto was his daddy. If he's an American who has always been true to our nation then he deserves to be treated as such. His ethnic background is completely irrelevant. Blaming the Japanese (and especially American Japanese) who are alive today for what was done by other Japanese before (or nearly before) they were born makes about as much sense as asking white folks in America to throw money at black folks for slavery.

314 Yankee Division Son  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 3:33:36pm

re: #312 Bear

Thank you for your service

315 Pietr  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 3:36:58pm

re: #312 Bear

Damn, Sir, you must be 20 plus years my senior-and one who also served. If that is true, may this humble retiree Salute you?

316 legalbgl  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 4:45:01pm

I thought you might like a photo essay of the Arrizona Memorial. All pictures were taken by me in March, 2004 on a Minolta HTSI Plus, Sigma 28-200 hyperzoom and Fuji Supra 100 film (yes, film).

[Link: lawhawk.blogspot.com...]

317 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 5:49:44pm

re: #313 leereyno

Especially since the concept of ethnic guilt is complete horseshit. I don't care if Yamamoto was his daddy. If he's an American who has always been true to our nation then he deserves to be treated as such. His ethnic background is completely irrelevant. Blaming the Japanese (and especially American Japanese) who are alive today for what was done by other Japanese before (or nearly before) they were born makes about as much sense as asking white folks in America to throw money at black folks for slavery.

And you thought I said something else?

318 derbigdog  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 5:57:39pm

re: #298 Areopagitica

The Navy didn't want to go along with it and Yamamoto tried vehemently to persuade the Japanese Government not to go to war with the U.S. and disliked the Rome-Tokyo-Berlin axis. Members of the IJN were targeted for assassination by army and militarist organizations as well.

Two of reason's the Japanese Navy opposed going to war against America were :
Yamamoto went to college in America and saw the enormous industrial base we had.
The Navy had conducted extensive war game scenario's of a Japanese USA war and found that they could never win. Then someone allowed the rules to be changed an it showed a possible victory based on a Pearl Harbor type of attack that would have the USA either not retaliating or recovering to late to stop Japan's conquest of Asia.

319 tyree  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:05:28pm

The opposite of war is not peace, but surrender. While is please the left to think of themselves as the embodiment of virtue, the "pro-war" crowd is working for peace also, but on better terms.

Author unknown, but he is probably a veteran.

320 tyree  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:19:13pm

#278 and #281
The British armored flight decks were a design solution to the necessity of fighting in the Mediterranean Sea, which was dominated by Italian land based bombers. Whenever possible, the US Navy avoided bringing their carriers close enough to the enemy for them to hit us. Generally, our tactics worked. Off Okinawa, the magnificent British carriers proved their worth by shrugging off hit after hit by kamikazes. On the other hand, British carries could only carry about 1/2 the numbers of planes than American carriers could. The is never a perfect solution.

321 Right Brain  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:27:34pm

This tripe is ahistorical: the Japanese murdered between 15,000,000 and 30,000,000 of their fellow Asians during the years of Shinto militarism. Are we to believe that it was because of "humiliation?" They kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery over 400,000 young women, mostly from Korea, was it because they were sad and blue over lost of empire? The Japanese invasion and rape of Nanking China was the greatest and most venal debauchery of the 20th Century with violence almost beyond description. Was some ingenious argument to persuade them to behave otherwise?

Grauniad is emblematic of the feel-good history that gets recirculated among the almost-educated, the almost caring, the American Left.

322 Silas  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:36:25pm

well said. re: #321 Right Brain

323 abdul abulbul amir  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:46:35pm

You can draw kinds of "lessons" from history. This writer seems to ignore the part played by the sanctions placed on Japan.

324 dak  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:53:56pm

This numbnuts Grauniad should have a talk with a few Koreans, Philipinos and Chinese (or a few Allied POWs).

The japanese were in China a long time before 1941.

Oh, and by the way, the President who humiliated them and interned Japanese-American citizens?

A Democrat, of course.

325 dak  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:56:06pm

re: #320 tyree


True, every design is a compromise. Now, what kinda planes were they flying off them Brit carriers?

Hint: They were made by Grumman and Vought.

326 I Need A Bigger Gun  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 7:37:37pm

I made one trip to Pearl while on my second ship. We were there for about a week. I made it a point to be up on deck every morning, usually on the helo deck, in order to watch the raising of the colors over the Arizona Memorial. I got a tear in my eye every morning.

327 yochanan  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 9:16:23pm

god bless them all my father was there on that dec 7th.

328 hershel  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 10:47:10pm

I'm glad that others have brought up the Rape of Nanking and other Japanese atrocities. It is unbelievable, or maybe all too believable, that the Guardian calls the Japanese "Davids". What next, the Nazis, after all they supported the poor beleagured Palestinians.

Incidentally, while I never met Iris Chang myself I knew her husband. A real tragedy.

329 Billy Hank  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 10:49:26pm

Dec 7th holds a special spot in my memory. On that day in 1967, I was looking out the window of a World Airways 707 as it taxied past a billboard alongside the Tan Son Nhut taxiway that read "Welcome to Saigon, the Paris of the Orient."

My Dad was an A-20/B-25 pilot with the 3rd Attack Group through the early days of the SWP campaign including the Battle of the Bismarck Sea and Rabaul.

After the war, we sponsored a Japanese and a German exchange student. This was despite two of his friends having been beheaded by the Japanese after being shot down and being shot down twice himself.

330 saxking20  Sun, Dec 7, 2008 11:47:45pm

About ten years ago, we visited the Pearl Harbor Memorial and were in a very somber mood because of the death and destruction that occurred on that day of infamy. We read every name listed on the plaque on the ARIZONA.

When we returned on the tour boat to the harbor, we were appalled by a very large group of Japanese students who were about high school age. They were running on the lawn, laughing and lining up for pictures with the ARIZONA in the background. It was a though they were on a school picnic...

My wife still gets furious at the mention of the incident...

I wish we had had some potatoes to throw...

331 shane  Mon, Dec 8, 2008 8:14:25am

When I went to the Arizona Memorial some years ago I was in uniform, a sailor. A Master Chief Gunners Mate who was working there pointed something out in the movie they show before you ride the boat over to the Arizona. In the movie there is sound and when you hear a huge bong like a very large bell that is when the magazines on the Arizona blew up. That was the pressure wave of the explosion in the hull. It is also the death bell for all those who were below deck. At that instant, the pressure wave killed all below decks. It made that particular sound much more meaningful to me when I watched the film. That was the instant those men died. That sound reminds me of those who came before me. It reminds me that I had to carry their load for my time in the service and now, young men and women carry the load for me.

332 boondocksaint  Mon, Dec 8, 2008 8:45:22am

If you study Japanese/ American diplomatic relations for the 10 years before Pearl Harbor, you will see that America made mistake after mistake in its dealings with Japan.

Pearl Harbor was wrong and murderous...but we did push Japan into a corner; and by that point all the moderates in Japan had been expelled or shot. Things could have been handled differently.

333 iowavette  Mon, Dec 8, 2008 10:29:14am

The only newspaper worse than the Guardian is the NYT. They are both yellow rags filled with childish musings.

334 tyree  Mon, Dec 8, 2008 5:06:16pm

DAk - The Brit's were flying Corsairs and Hellcats. They actually adopted the Corsair earlier than the US and found them to be excellent. They were certainly better than the Swordfish and Fulmars they took into the war.

Boondocksaint - great name but you are off by about 50%, at least. I would vote that the country who perpetrated the Rape of Nanking had made a few mistakes and earned a massive share of the blame. Sure, we could have done a lot better, but how do you correctly, diplomatically handle something like that? Given that the Japanese were renting to ships to carry food to the home islands before the shooting started, the decision to go to war so they could keep killing people in China far outshines any gaff on our part. Given that in 1941 our Civil War was only 76 years in the past, I think many people judge my grandfathers generation too harshly.

Had the Japanese decided to give up their Imperial dreams in the 1930's, we would be having a completely different discussion today.

335 Seax  Tue, Dec 9, 2008 1:02:39am

My Dad used to tell me about his second cousin. The Second World War started for him with a swim...after he was blown off the decks of the Arizona! Every time I see pictures or film of the attack - I cringe as I know that there was family there.A friends Dad ( WW2 Royal Navy - did the Murmansk run THREE times!) did a trade with an American sailor - and got some pictures of the USN carriers LEAVING Pearl before the attack took place...wow!
To all the WW2 vets - Thank you !


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