Bush Talks About Creationism and Evolution on Nightline

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Religion • Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:16 pm PST • Views: 574

In an interview on Nightline, President Bush says the Bible is “probably not” literally true, and says there is “scientific proof” for evolution.

Biblical literalists are fuming mad.

David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network told CNN“s John Roberts on Thursday, ”I think a lot of social conservative evangelicals were surprised — probably grabbing the smelling salts as we speak.“

One blogger at the conservative Washington Times, commented the next morning, ”I already have an e-mail from a former Bush administration official who writes, ‘This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.’“

Brody, who has written that Bush would ”have had to go into damage control mode“ after these comments if he were still running for office, said that the remarks definitely ”would have been an issue“ in 1999, when Bush was actively seeking the support of the religious right in his bid for the presidency.

Brody concluded by suggesting, with what appeared to be a note of bitterness, that ”George Bush has always been — quote — ‘good’ on the ‘life’ issue with social conservatives and good with the marriage issue. And it seems that he had cover because he had the public policy positions down.”

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1107 comments

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1 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:17:31pm

Go for it. Might as well. ;-)>

2 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:17:34pm
3 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:17:55pm

I have to wonder if Dubya would have been elected had he said this in 2000.

4 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:17:56pm

Here we go again...

5 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:17:57pm

Time for my standard list of favorite ID/Creationist argument links:

reDiscovery Institute (Parody site)

The Holy Book for Turtles-all-the-way-downism (Thanks, jcm!)

Using creationist/ID arguments against them:
Why We Believe in a Designer!
Organisms that Look Designed
Oolon Colluphid's Guide to Creation

Talk.Origins archive

People involved in spreading Darwin's discoveries as a philosophy, whom Ben Stein mysteriously neglects to mention:
Ernst Haeckel
William Sumner
Vladmir Ulyanov

Is There An Artifical God? (essay by Douglas Adams)

Get A-Life (essay on using artificial life to study evolution)

Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker (video about a-life)

The Day The Universe Changed - "Fit To Rule" (Episode 8):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

6 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:18:42pm

I believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

7 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:18:43pm

People who take the Bible literally are funny,

and scary.

8 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:19:05pm

Good for him. The bible is true, the interpretation by fundementalists is what is false.

9 phoenixgirl  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:19:32pm

re: #6 Oh no...Sand People!

AMEN!

10 harrylook  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:20:09pm

If I'm the outgoing Prez, after 2 brutal terms, after one of the most difficult presidencies in 50 years, I don't think I'm going to give a crap what anyone thinks, never mind a group of loons who think man walked the earth with dinosaurs.

11 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:20:38pm

Heads exploding in the Discovery Institute.

12 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:20:50pm
One blogger at the conservative Washington Times, commented the next morning, ”I already have an e-mail from a former Bush administration official who writes, ‘This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.’“

Dang... so he might not win re-election?

13 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:20:51pm

re: #6 Oh no...Sand People!

I believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

Not only that, but understood correctly. There is a lot of misaiming in today's Christendom.

14 cagney  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:21:03pm

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

"Fourteen suspected al Qaeda terrorists were detained by Belgian police today amid fears that they were plotting a suicide mission on Gordon Brown and other EU leaders at a summit in Brussels.

Officials said the risk of an imminent attack had increased after one of the arrested men had received the 'green light' from his paymasters to carry out a suicide mission.

They added that the man was believed to be mounting an operation 'from which he was not expected to come back.'

There were claims he had left a so-called matyrdom video.

The police action - which follows the recent al Qaeda-linked terror attack in Mumbai - came as the 27 European leaders, including Mr Brown, French president Nicolas Sarkozy and German chancellor Angela Merkel, met for a two-day summit.

Announcing the detentions, Belgian federal prosecutor Johan Delmulle said one of the alleged plotters had already 'said goodbye to his loved ones because he wanted to enter paradise with a clear conscience'.

The operation to swoop on the alleged terror cell involved more than 240 police officers who carried out 16 raid in Brussels and a further one in Liege.

The men are believed to have received terror training in jihadi camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Mr Delmulle said that the information the security services had on the alleged cell 'linked to the fact that the EU summit is being held in Belgium at the moment, left us with no choice but to intervene today'."

15 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:21:40pm

re: #10 harrylook

If I'm the outgoing Prez, after 2 brutal terms, after one of the most difficult presidencies in 50 years, I don't think I'm going to give a crap what anyone thinks, never mind a group of loons who think man walked the earth with dinosaurs.

No we didn't walk with them- we ran from them and hid in caves.
/

16 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:21:41pm

re: #1 Outrider

Go for it. Might as well. ;-)>

Nothing to lose

17 phoenixgirl  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:22:10pm

re: #15 Capitalist Tool

LOL

18 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:22:33pm
19 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:22:49pm

re: #15 Capitalist Tool

No we didn't walk with them- we ran from them and hid in caves.
/

THEY'RE THE DEVIL!

20 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:22:53pm

The Age of Reason is still alive and well, despite the ankle biters.

21 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:23:22pm

I'll be in the galley washing up the fruit cups from the overnight thread...I stay out of trouble that way...:)

22 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:23:33pm

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

23 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:23:55pm
24 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:24:39pm

From the link:

"Bush further stated in the interview, "I think that God created the Earth ... and I don't think it's incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution."

Brody suggested that Bush may have merely been referring to what creationists call "microevolution" -- small-scale changes that do not rise to the level of creating new species. However, he didn't appear altogether confident, telling Roberts, "The problem was, the president didn't seem all that -- if you want to use the word -- coherent on the subject."

Speaking of coherent: I've read that term micro-evolution a lot lately, but I've never heard anyone talk about the mechanism that stops it before it becomes "macro-evolution."

25 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:25:04pm

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

And a big Reason's Greetings to you!

Say...now there's a holiday card!

Quick stick a TM behind it before Hallmark steals it...:)

26 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:25:06pm
In an interview on Nightline, President Bush says the Bible is “probably not” literally true, and says there is “scientific proof” for evolution.

O Rly?

27 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:25:09pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

You must have missed the late Sam Kinnison's bit on starving people in India...

28 Bumr50  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:25:37pm

Does it matter?
This argument is unproductive in my mind, as creationists are willfully ignoring much scientific evidence in order to satisfy their spiritual needs.
I believe that each of us does indeed have spiritual needs, even if your spiritual need is to rationalize everything empirically so as to placate your very own, personal, spiritual needs.
As long as this stays out of public policy and isn't criminal, I don't give a rodents derriere what anyone else believes, nor will it affect my voting.

29 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:25:45pm

re: #15 Capitalist Tool

No we didn't walk with them- we ran from them and hid in caves.
/

On the plus side, we had Raquel Welch there to comfort us.

30 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:26:00pm

We interpret to our own demise. It's in there.

31 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:26:14pm

re: #26 bosforus

In an interview on Nightline, President Bush says the Bible is “probably not” literally true, and says there is “scientific proof” for evolution.

O Rly?

No, George Bush, not Bill O'Reily.

32 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:26:18pm

re: #6 Oh no...Sand People!

I believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

I'd take that as an article of faith.

33 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:26:38pm

re: #27 Thanos

You must have missed the late Sam Kinnison's bit on starving people in India...

is it like the f**kin desert one?

34 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:26:40pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Are we mocking them, or are we attacking their ideas and Ideology? There is a difference, and if you want to see the ideology go upthread and click on the Wedge Strategy link.

35 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:26:45pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

Not sure.

36 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:27:20pm

re: #27 Thanos

You must have missed the late Sam Kinnison's bit on starving people in India...

I just remember the Africa bit.

"Ya see, this is sand. Know what was here a hundred years ago? Sand. Whats gonna be here a hundred years from now? Sand. MOVE TO THE *BLEEP*ING FOOD PEOPLE!"

37 Bumr50  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:27:22pm

re: #33 Peacekeeper

Sam had no trouble moving to where the food was.

38 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:27:36pm

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

And a big Reason's Greetings to you!

Say...now there's a holiday card!

Happy Horridays...

39 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:27:38pm

re: #29 Occasional Reader

On the plus side, we had Raquel Welch there to comfort us.

Yes Indeedee!

40 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:27:53pm

I must live in a bubble.

I know so very few people who take the bible stories literally, I find it hard to believe that evolution is such a controversial topic, in this day and age.

And yet it apparently is.

41 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:28:19pm
Brody, who has written that Bush would ”have had to go into damage control mode“ after these comments if he were still running for office, said that the remarks definitely ”would have been an issue“ in 1999, when Bush was actively seeking the support of the religious right in his bid for the presidency.

Contemplate this for a moment- what Brody's really saying here. That despite Bush's pro-life stance, his views on evolution would have cost him the nomination. There has been plenty of discussion here at LGF about the so-cons and their insistence on candidates being pro-life, but this goes beyond that. Now instead of wanting a candidate to be pro-life, Brody is saying that a candidate, to get the support needed from religious conservatives, must also be anti-evolution Biblical literalists.

This is highly problematic for the GOP, because the majority of Americans of the Christian and Jewish faiths are not literalists, yet a faction of the right seeks to push for leaders who are. This is going to continue to hurt the party.

42 akak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:28:23pm

was this before or after the reporter looked into his soul?

43 harrylook  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:28:42pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

Let's suppose you're a biblical literalist, then. Are you going to have a coniption if the President prefers science over irrational belief? If they don't attack me, I won't attack them.

44 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:28:49pm

Please explain to this simple minded physicist how belief in creationism is a measure of a good president?

I can certainly see it as a measure of stupidity, but suppose for half a minute, that there really was an honest debate... Suppose it was actually up for grabs. Exactly where in the constitution does it say that a President should be selected on the basis of his reading of the Bible?

It has been noted here before and it should be re-emphasized, that separation of church and state is a good thing. Even if you are a person of deep faith, what do you do if the schools start teaching someone else's doctrine to your kids? Think about it. What are the odds that the new State espoused doctorine agrees completely with your own? Would die hard Baptists be cool with Catholic interpretations becoming official - or vice versa?

In my opinion, this is one of the most obnoxious and insidious aspects of the Religious Right. They do not realize the incredible divisions and hardships they are fulminating, not just for others, but for themselves.

45 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:28:54pm

i think she was trying to make a fool of him.
she failed.
he sounded sincere and honest and not at all backward or unsophisticated.
he embraces god and accepts that evolution based on science can exist too.
that's fine w/ me.

46 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:28:56pm

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You have to keep any bit current and topical, prior to that it was India / Bangladesh.

47 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:29:20pm

I'd rather live next to Ned Flanders than Bill Ayers.

48 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:29:29pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

Why is it we, right here on LGF, mock Mormons. I just posted this on the last thread.


re: #369 buzzsawmonkey

It's the secret, sacred, sexy underwear, I'm sure.

You know. I think we should be a little careful when we start making humorous comments about Mormons. The sacred underclothes may seem a little different to a lot of us, but it is a very serious and important article of ritual in their theology.

It would be the same if we made fun of the cross, or the menorah, or the Star of David. Most of the time we show that much respect to Muslims here on LGF (although some of the Muslim sarcasm get a bit severe).

But Mormons are not causing the world any problems, so I don't know why we would even go the sarcasm route with them?

Just my opinion.

I'm just curious.

49 SFGoth  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:29:34pm

"Probably not"? WTF? He's not sure? There's a chance that the Earth is 5,000 years old, and Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden because she's a conniving bitch? Lordy.

50 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:30:04pm

re: #47 Peacekeeper

I'd rather live next to Ned Flanders than Bill Ayers.

Wow. That's what you think this comes down to?

51 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:30:20pm

re: #43 harrylook

Absolutely fair.

52 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:30:21pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

. . . This is highly problematic for the GOP, because the majority of Americans of the Christian and Jewish faiths are not literalists, yet a faction of the right seeks to push for leaders who are. This is going to continue to hurt the party.

Yes, you are correct. I am amazed that there are apparently a sufficient number of people who are literalists that they could affect an election. I know exactly one person who is a bible literalist.

53 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:30:28pm

re: #27 Thanos

You must have missed the late Sam Kinnison's bit on starving people in India...

Even better, I like Jason Roth's On Triple Splitz-O Cups and Starving Children.

Excerpt:

The following moral dilemma occurred to me the other day:

You're somewhat thirsty. Not too thirsty, just mildly enough that you would start considering moral dilemmas involving Coca Cola and starving children.

So there you are, thirsty, when suddenly to your delight you are offered one delicious, ice-cold can of Coke. And, like most hypothetical moral dilemmas (like the one when you're on a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean and the only thing left to eat is your grandmother), there is a catch.

You have a choice: Either crack open the Coke and let that wonderful caramel-colored carbonated beverage flow - or - send a portion of food of equivalent value, say seventy-five cents worth, to a starving child somewhere on the other side of the planet. Either satisfy your mild thirst and let some kid starve, or save the kid and remain thirsty.

There was not a moment's hesitation in my mind - I'd enjoy every drop. Which is what I have done and what I'll continue to do every time I have a desire for a Coke.

If one was available, I might even open a second can, even if I wasn't that thirsty and thought I'd only finish half. I'd chuck out the second half-full can of Coke (notice that I'm an optimist) into the trash like a twelve-inch loaf of freshly baked bread postmarked Express Airmail to Ethiopia - Postage Paid.

Read the whole thing.

54 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:31:16pm

re: #49 SFGoth

"Probably not"? WTF? ...and Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden because she's a conniving bitch? Lordy.


Well, OK, maybe there's something to this creationism...
/ducks

55 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:31:20pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually article Six says there can not be religious tests

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

56 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:31:24pm

OT

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

It's Jim DeMint, and - in a nutshell - he believes there will be riots if the bailout IS put in place.

Maybe it's just me, but the kind of people who oppose the bailouts seem to be more like the folks here.

And from what I've learned of the LGF folks, riots aren't part of the deal.

A trip to the ballot box is more like it.

57 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:31:47pm

re: #50 bosforus

No, but if I had to choose...

58 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:32:07pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

Exactly where in the constitution does it say that a President should be selected on the basis of his reading of the Bible?

The Constitution actually says the exact opposite.

59 kafir lover  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:32:16pm

It's refreshing to hear a politician speak honestly

60 yma o hyd  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:32:37pm

Gotta repeat from previous trheads:

... literal creationists actually abuse scripture by the mistaken interpretation that they impose upon it.

(Read the whole article ...)

The author of this is The Rev Canon John Polkinghorne, KBE, FRS,[ who] is a particle physicist and a theologian. He was President of Queens’ College, Cambridge, 1989-96

61 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:32:46pm

re: #59 kafir lover

It's refreshing to hear a politician speak honestly

LSD is so yesterday, man.

62 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:32:55pm

re: #47 Peacekeeper

I'd rather live next to Ned Flanders than Bill Ayers.

I would love to live next to Bill Ayres. Please allow me to take a moment to fantasize how I could make his life a living hell.

63 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:32:59pm

re: #47 Peacekeeper

I'd rather live next to Ned Flanders than Bill Ayers.

I'd rather live next to Adriana Lima, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

64 hellosnackbar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:33:04pm

What next Dubya?Tea with Dawkins and Hitchens?
Get it off your chest old son,You know you'll feel better.

65 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:33:14pm

I KNEW he is a smart guy!

66 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:33:34pm

re: #55 Thanos

Actually article Six says there can not be religious tests

This is one of the smartest parts of the Constitution. I was commenting a little about why it is such a good idea.

67 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:33:37pm

re: #49 SFGoth

"Probably not"? WTF? He's not sure? There's a chance that the Earth is 5,000 years old, and Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden because she's a conniving bitch? Lordy.

No, Adam's first wife Lillith was the one cast out because she was a bitch.

68 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:33:40pm

re: #57 Peacekeeper

No, but if I had to choose...

OK...

69 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:33:46pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? . . .

I don't feel like I have "mocked" Christian literalists . . .but I do find it absolutely absurd that educated people would deny what our God-given intelligence tells is us scientifically true.

70 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:09pm

re: #63 Occasional Reader

I'd rather live next to Adriana Lima, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Yes but what would your wife say?

71 kafir lover  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:13pm

re: #61 Capitalist Tool

LSD is so yesterday, man.

What's that supposed to mean?

72 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:20pm

So, now that Bush admits he understands evolution, the social conservatives somehow think he's abandoned them on the issue of marriage? Is it not possible to believe that it serves the interest of society to write the laws on marriage so that it's one man, one woman, and no closer than second cousins? Must we say that either you believe in the literal Bible, as a science text, or you believe that every man ought to be able to have seven wives, including his sister, his mother, his daughter, two brothers, his partner in the bank robbery, and his dog? (Each of them a deduction on the tax return, and each exempt from testifying against any of the others).

73 Bud Norton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:26pm

Wouldn't it have been fun if he had also said "I don't believe the Koran is literally true, either."

74 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:33pm

re: #56 subsailor68

OT

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

It's Jim DeMint, and - in a nutshell - he believes there will be riots if the bailout IS put in place.

Maybe it's just me, but the kind of people who oppose the bailouts seem to be more like the folks here.

And from what I've learned of the LGF folks, riots aren't part of the deal.

A trip to the ballot box is more like it.

If the automakers receive a bailout, I will never buy another vehicle from them. Had a Ford and it was the worst car I ever owned. Fuck them.

75 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:40pm

re: #67 gmsc

No, Adam's first wife Lillith was the one cast out because she was a bitch.

That was Fraser's wife.

76 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:53pm

re: #63 Occasional Reader

She's definitely more three-dimensional than Ned.

77 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:34:53pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists?

I am an equal opportunity mocker.

It's not the Christian part I mock it's the literalist. If we as Christians are true to our own theology we would admit that "we see through a glass but darkly" and not be so cocksure of their own understanding. How can any person knowing they are subject to the limitations of mortality claim to have a perfect understanding of anything?

I say this as a man of deep faith who believes in direct revelation from a living God. I just don't think that God or science have revealed the totality of everything to me at this time.

78 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:01pm

re: #53 gmsc

I don't believe that any aid actually makes it to the starving children. Therefore I would enjoy that tasty beverage.

79 rexatosis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:12pm

Oh Great, now the MSM can focus on something important, Fundamentalists abandoning President Bush over Evolution, rather than the immaterial scandal-ridden toxic soup of Chicago politics.

80 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:25pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

The Constitution actually says the exact opposite.

I clearly must have miss typed something... I was trying to say something like, given that we have a seperation of church and state enshrined by the constitution, what is wrong with various religious groups who seem to think that forcing their religion into office is a good thing?

81 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:25pm

re: #73 Bud Norton

Wouldn't it have been fun if he had also said "I don't believe the Koran is literally true, either."

EXACTLY! But we just couldn't say that in public could we?

82 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:38pm

re: #77 DaddyG

I am an equal opportunity mocker.

It's not the Christian part I mock it's the literalist. If we as Christians are true to our own theology we would admit that "we see through a glass but darkly" and not be so cocksure of their own understanding. How can any person knowing they are subject to the limitations of mortality claim to have a perfect understanding of anything?

I say this as a man of deep faith who believes in direct revelation from a living God. I just don't think that God or science have revealed the totality of everything to me at this time.

ff

Great answer.

83 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:46pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

This is one of the smartest parts of the Constitution. I was commenting a little about why it is such a good idea.

Yes, but on the other hand if I ran for president there wouldn't be a chance in hell of me getting the Republican nomination as an atheist.

84 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:35:47pm

re: #70 Peacekeeper

Yes but what would your wife say?

In my fantasy version? "Move over a little, honey, there's room for three."

Wait. I didn't say that.

85 Silhouette  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:36:08pm

From the above quotes, I do not see that Creationists are angry, but that two people saying the Creationists are angry.

It reminds me all the people confidently speaking for Evangelicals during the primaries and saying they would all have issues with Romney's religion.

86 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:36:31pm

I'm sure that George Bush is a man of faith.
He isn't well informed about various religious thinking, and it doesn't matter to his salvation, BTW.
I mean, he regularly called Islam a ''religion of peace.''

87 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:36:32pm

re: #52 reine.de.tout

Yes, you are correct. I am amazed that there are apparently a sufficient number of people who are literalists that they could affect an election. I know exactly one person who is a bible literalist.

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

The Bible is a Spiritual text, it's meaning and context all lie in the spiritual realm. It's physical manifestation is when a person learns the spiritual lessons and lives them outwardly.

It is a fundamental error to take it and try to make it fit the physical world literally. The result is all sorts of misaimings, and deviations manifest in the Fred Phelps and others.

88 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:06pm

re: #40 reine.de.tout

I must live in a bubble.

I know so very few people who take the bible stories literally, I find it hard to believe that evolution is such a controversial topic, in this day and age.

And yet it apparently is.

I never realized how big an issue it is until Charles brought it to my attention. I gotta tell you, I was surprised, and a bit horrified that there are grown people who have not figured this one out, just common sense wise.

89 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:11pm

re: #74 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the automakers receive a bailout, I will never buy another vehicle from them. Had a Ford and it was the worst car I ever owned. Fuck them.

Yep. Thanks - you helped make my point. Not buying another car - and letting 'em know why - is a great response. Don't think I'd ever see ya running around with a crowbar, boosting big screens through a broken store window.

:-)

90 Mithrax  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:16pm

re: #84 Occasional Reader

You SO owe me a new monitor for that.

91 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:20pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

I just spoke with some Hindus this morning.

So, did they fix your software problem?

92 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:24pm

Peacekeeper,

People believing in kooky things is one thing. People trying to force their kooky beliefs down others throats as "established scientific fact" is something else.

93 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:44pm

re: #73 Bud Norton

Wouldn't it have been fun if he had also said "I don't believe the Koran is literally true, either."

Imagine the seething...

94 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:37:59pm

re: #84 Occasional Reader

In my fantasy version? "Move over a little, honey, there's room for three."

Wait. I didn't say that.

Is the Missus good with a knife Jefe?

95 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:38:04pm

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

I'm just curious.

Walter - I don't mind the teasing as long as it isn't cruel. Two of us (who are Mormons) were playing right along with Buzzsaw's teasing. I didn't catch a vicious vibe from him but rather a play on what others have mocked. If I can't have a sense of humor about my own peculiarities (or what others may find peculiar) than I have some growing to do.

I do appreciate your concern for fair play where the LDS are concerned however. Thank you for that.

96 maddogg  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:38:07pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

It isn't. Thats why I don't do it. I show respect for their beliefs, as to the extent they aren't trying to legislate them. They know at least as much about God and the afterlife as any smug atheist I ever met.

97 Nevergiveup  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:38:10pm

re: #86 mean Gene

I'm sure that George Bush is a man of faith.
He isn't well informed about various religious thinking, and it doesn't matter to his salvation, BTW.
I mean, he regularly called Islam a ''religion of peace.''

Yeah, well when Obama goes to that Muslim Capital, you'll be looking back on President Bush and The "religion of Peace" thing as the good old days?

98 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:38:39pm

re: #83 Thanos

Yes, but on the other hand if I ran for president there wouldn't be a chance in hell of me getting the Republican nomination as an atheist.

Which in my humble opinion is part of why Obama is in office.

99 Spiritualized  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:39:20pm
U.S. President-elect Barack Obama plans to offer Israel a strategic pact designed to fend off any nuclear attack on the Jewish state by Iran, an Israeli newspaper reported on Thursday.

Duck and Cover!

100 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:39:29pm

re: #91 Occasional Reader

So, did they fix your software problem?

!

101 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:39:32pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

Contemplate this for a moment- what Brody's really saying here. That despite Bush's pro-life stance, his views on evolution would have cost him the nomination. There has been plenty of discussion here at LGF about the so-cons and their insistence on candidates being pro-life, but this goes beyond that. Now instead of wanting a candidate to be pro-life, Brody is saying that a candidate, to get the support needed from religious conservatives, must also be anti-evolution Biblical literalists.

This is highly problematic for the GOP, because the majority of Americans of the Christian and Jewish faiths are not literalists, yet a faction of the right seeks to push for leaders who are. This is going to continue to hurt the party.


I don't think this is problematic. You mention that the majority are not literalists, with which I agree. While the literalist minority is vocal, I really don't believe that they a) always vote based on literalist criteria - what candidate from any party would fit that view? b) are large enough a constituency to have much effect on election outcomes.

I think we're allowing ourselves to fall prey to the MSM charicature of "the religious right" as some monstrous behemoth that's running the Republican party.

102 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:39:40pm

re: #89 subsailor68

Yep. Thanks - you helped make my point. Not buying another car - and letting 'em know why - is a great response. Don't think I'd ever see ya running around with a crowbar, boosting big screens through a broken store window.

:-)

Nah, I'm more of a suppressing fire, fire support, cover the avenues of approach kind of rioter.

I miss my SAW every now and then.

103 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:39:46pm

re: #80 LudwigVanQuixote

I clearly must have miss typed something... I was trying to say something like, given that we have a seperation of church and state enshrined by the constitution, what is wrong with various religious groups who seem to think that forcing their religion into office is a good thing?

Well- Thanos beat me to the punch by linking to the appropriate article in the Constitution that prevents religious tests for obtaining office.

I would say what is wrong with these groups is that they either don't understand the Constitution, or they don't care about upholding it.

104 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:39:50pm

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

I'm just curious.

As much as there are times I would love to say, "Yup, I agree with the Evangelicals that I am not a Christian", just to be differentiated from them, at the beginning, afternoon, and end of the day I am a Christian, however.

I don't want to be a 'victim' though. If I can trash the tenets of Islam, I will respect other's views enough to trash 'mormonism' as long as they are honest about it.

105 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:40:18pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists? I just spoke with some Hindus this morning. They showed me a picture of a woman crawling under a cows' belly to show it respect. The cow is a goddess to them, literally. I don't believe it but I don't thrash them for it either. And I wouldn't write long diatribes demanding they start eating beef.

What if they demanded the right to teach cow divinity to your children in public high school science class?

106 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:40:31pm

re: #92 Dirk Diggler

Peacekeeper,

People believing in kooky things is one thing. People trying to force their kooky beliefs down others throats as "established scientific fact" is something else.

I agree. Just seems like things get alittle crazy around here with the mocking and the flaming ...yahey!

107 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:40:41pm

re: #77 DaddyG

I say this as a man of deep faith who believes in direct revelation from a living God. I just don't think that God or science have revealed the totality of everything to me at this time.

Which is why you're a conservative. If you did claim to know the totality of everything, you'd be a liberal.
My hat's off to you...

108 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:41:00pm

re: #99 Spiritualized

Duck and Cover!


And out of the well climbs the 12th Imam.

109 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:42:24pm

re: #108 Capitalist Tool

And out of the well climbs the 12th Imam.

And shortly after 1/20/09, the 12th Imam is going to be giving a major address in a Muslim Capital...

110 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:42:38pm

re: #107 LGoPs

Which is why you're a conservative. If you did claim to know the totality of everything, you'd be a liberal.
My hat's off to you...

What am I if I know I don't know everything but I think I know more than most?

/maybe

111 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:42:48pm

re: #106 Peacekeeper

I agree. Just seems like things get alittle crazy around here with the mocking and the flaming ...yahey!

Wasn't that supposed to be capped off with an "mmmGLAVIN"?

112 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:43:04pm

re: #101 eschew_obfuscation

I don't think this is problematic. You mention that the majority are not literalists, with which I agree. While the literalist minority is vocal, I really don't believe that they a) always vote based on literalist criteria - what candidate from any party would fit that view? b) are large enough a constituency to have much effect on election outcomes.

I think we're allowing ourselves to fall prey to the MSM charicature of "the religious right" as some monstrous behemoth that's running the Republican party.

Heck, I'd go farther than that!
A REAL literalist wouldn't vote at all!
Didn't Jesus (the REAL One) say, ''My kingdom is no part of this world?"
Didn't one of the prophets say that all the various nations created by men were ''as drops from an empty bucket or as dust on empty scales to the LORD?"
Yeah, they did.
So why would a literalist choose any man to rule over him?
He's simply put up as lawfully as possible with whoever happened to be in the position of ruler in his days on earth.

113 wiffersnapper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:43:24pm

Gonna miss Dubya :(

114 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:43:29pm
115 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:43:42pm

re: #6 Oh no...Sand People!

I believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

"Well, yes...of course," says the other monk.

"So, what if, in the past 2,000 years," sayd the forst monk, "Somebody misspelled something or got a word wrong, and we've been copying that mistake ever since?"

"well, that's a good question," says the second monk, "That could really be a problem. Wait a minute, I know think we have the origional documents somewhere in the basement. Tell you what--stay here and I'll go see if I can find them."

So the second monk goes down into the basement. After waiting several hours, the first monk decides to go look for him. So he goes down there, and sure enough, he sees the other monk. But he's crying.

"Why are you crying?" he asks.

"It says CELEBRATE."

116 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:43:45pm

re: #69 reine.de.tout

I don't feel like I have "mocked" Christian literalists . . .but I do find it absolutely absurd that educated people would deny what our God-given intelligence tells is us scientifically true.

I take your point and pretty much agree.

But there were days when our God-given intelligence told us the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, gold could be made from lead...

We need to be sure we don't get too proud of our intelligence...allow room for error.

117 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:10pm

Go out for one little meeting and Lo and Behold, an ID/Creation thread.

118 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:24pm

re: #47 Peacekeeper

I'd rather live next to Ned Flanders than Bill Ayers.

One is violent and the other is not so it's not a valid comparison. Would you rather live next to bill ayers or an abortion clinic bomber? I would think the right answer here is "neither."

119 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:30pm

re: #112 mean Gene

Actually, didn't Jesus say something about rendering unto Cesar.

120 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:37pm

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

121 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:46pm

re: #101 eschew_obfuscation

I don't think this is problematic. You mention that the majority are not literalists, with which I agree. While the literalist minority is vocal, I really don't believe that they a) always vote based on literalist criteria - what candidate from any party would fit that view? b) are large enough a constituency to have much effect on election outcomes.

I think we're allowing ourselves to fall prey to the MSM charicature of "the religious right" as some monstrous behemoth that's running the Republican party.

I don't think it's a caricature- they do have a lot of power in the party and they are used by the msm to paint the entire party as right wing religious fundamentalists, whether we are or not. If they didn't have any power, why would Brody be saying Bush's comments would have been problematic in 1999?

122 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:47pm

re: #105 Salamantis

What if they demanded the right to teach cow divinity to your children in public high school science class?

A question best left to the good people at the Department of Agriculture.

No then it would be on.

123 uncc_compman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:44:51pm

re: #56 subsailor68

OT

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

It's Jim DeMint, and - in a nutshell - he believes there will be riots if the bailout IS put in place.

Maybe it's just me, but the kind of people who oppose the bailouts seem to be more like the folks here.

And from what I've learned of the LGF folks, riots aren't part of the deal.

A trip to the ballot box is more like it.

Why not? It worked to Obama elected.

124 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:45:29pm

re: #120 CapeCoddah

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Ooooh... nice...

125 Nevergiveup  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:45:44pm

re: #120 CapeCoddah

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Gee wouldn't our Allies the Pakistan's be mad?

126 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:45:52pm

re: #120 CapeCoddah

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

D.I. Khan is the JeM hangout iirc.

127 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:46:46pm

Looks like Mrs. Blago is up to her eyeballs, too, Don't these asses ever think of their children? I guess they will be better off without parents like that.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

128 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:47:36pm

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

The Bible commands Jews to wear fringes

I always suspected you guys were a fringe religion.

129 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:47:50pm
130 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:47:54pm

re: #120 CapeCoddah

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

WEDDING PARTY!
/

131 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:47:54pm

re: #120 CapeCoddah

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Tallied some bananas.

132 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:47:56pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

And for the record- I think you're anything but simple minded.

133 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:47:58pm

buzzsawmonkey,

For what it's worth, sacred underwear is not a Mormon invention. The Bible commands Jews to wear fringes (tzitzit) on the corners of our garments, a mitzvah which has been fulfilled for centuries by men wearing a sort of mini-poncho called a tallis katan (small tallis) with fringes at the four corners properly knotted to symbolize the 613 commandments.

For what its worth, my religion instructs me to go commando.

134 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:24pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

I don't think it's a caricature- they do have a lot of power in the party and they are used by the msm to paint the entire party as right wing religious fundamentalists, whether we are or not. If they didn't have any power, why would Brody be saying Bush's comments would have been problematic in 1999?


I don't buy everything that Brody alleges ... I don't think he's right...IMHO.

135 Land Shark  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:33pm

The reaction to Bush's statements is just more evidence of how crazily intolerant so many of my fellow creationists can be. Like me, Bush believes that God created the Earth and Universe and he believes in science and evolution. What's the problem with accepting science and evolution as God's work?

Yeah, he probably would have lost the support of evangelicals if had said this in 2000. If you're a politician you gotta play to your crowd. That's the way it is, sadly.

136 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:34pm

re: #133 Dirk Diggler

buzzsawmonkey,


For what its worth, my religion instructs me to go commando.

Buttons or zippers?

137 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:38pm

The real issue here is that this blog has become a front for Johnson's hideous Unitarian Universalist heresies.


/OR ya think I need the 'sarc'?

138 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:56pm

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

fringes at the four corners properly knotted to symbolize the 613 commandments

613?! Good grief. It's like wearing "US Tax Code Pants".

139 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:57pm

re: #120 CapeCoddah

"Suspected US strike kills 6 in Pakistan"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]


Watch for
Bill Roggio to update this...

140 BigMac  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:57pm

With each passing year, President Bush will be remembered as smarter and more forward thinking than any of his peers.

141 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:48:58pm
142 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:49:06pm

re: #128 Occasional Reader

I always suspected you guys were a fringe religion.

I draw the line at public Phylactery...
/;-P

143 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:49:44pm

re: #119 The_Vig

Yeah, being law abiding as far as one could be. Rendering honor, tax, tribute (more money) not one's loyalty.
That belongs to God.
Mark 12:14-17.
Read the whole quote, it ends: Caesar's things (with Caesar's image on them) to Caesar; God's things (we are made in God's image) to God.

144 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:49:47pm

re: #133 Dirk Diggler

buzzsawmonkey,


For what its worth, my religion instructs me to go commando.

My religion's precepts on the subject are summed up in the "Song of Thongs".

145 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:50:17pm

re: #135 Land Shark

Creationists do not accept evolution.

146 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:50:34pm

re: #144 Occasional Reader

Would you mind thinging a few barth?

147 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:51:01pm

BRB, potty training, must go help then let her pick out a sticker for her potty training chart. Working towards the prize of the week!

148 uncc_compman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:51:07pm

re: #123 uncc_compman

Why not? It worked to getstrong>Obama elected.

I can't type today.

149 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:51:12pm

re: #110 DaddyG

What am I if I know I don't know everything but I think I know more than most?

/maybe

He who knows and knows he knows - he is wise, follow him
He who knows not and knows he knows not - he is a child, teach him
He who knows but knows not that he knows, he is lost, lead him
He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool, shun him

I think I got that right. Taught to me in high school by a Jesuit priest, long ago, in a galxay far, far away...
:)

150 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:51:22pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Creationists do not accept evolution.

Does that mean they were born that way?

151 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:51:42pm

The only thing I am 100% sure of is how little I actually know. I would say that, since posting here, I have gained more information and critical thinking skills than all the colleges of the world could offer.

So thanks be to you all.

/and still have given charles so little for it... going to hit the tip jar soon.

152 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:51:57pm

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

The Bible commands Jews to wear fringes


Buckskins and surreys?

153 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:52:12pm

re: #101 eschew_obfuscation

I think we're allowing ourselves to fall prey to the MSM charicature of "the religious right" as some monstrous behemoth that's running the Republican party.

:sigh: Why am I always having to defend myself from constant, baseless rumors and unwarranted libel? I AM NOT a part of the "religious right", and I DO NOT run the Republican party. If I did, Rudy would be President elect right now.

And before anyone gets started with that other baseless rumor I often see, I had absolutely nothing to do with Job, and was no where near Uz at that time. Sheesh!
///

154 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:52:13pm

re: #149 LGoPs

PIMF galxay=galaxy

155 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:52:15pm

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

156 uncc_compman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:52:24pm

re: #137 Peacekeeper

The real issue here is that this blog has become a front for Johnson's hideous Unitarian Universalist heresies.


/OR ya think I need the 'sarc'?


yea, probably do

157 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:52:28pm

re: #134 eschew_obfuscation

I don't buy everything that Brody alleges ... I don't think he's right...IMHO.

Fair enough, but I think you're wrong. The Christian right does have a lot of power in the party. It is who the McCain-Palin team turned to first when Bristol Palin's pregnancy was leaked. Why would that have been necessary if they weren't a major factor in the party?

158 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:53:22pm

re: #141 taxfreekiller

Walter L. Newton

I posted this on the prior thread in response to your "f" word to me on my
respect and understanding of Mormons.

"Walter your getting to be a real prick, could be your well practiced."

like that

And here was my response to you...

TFK, look. I was making a comment about making fun of Mormons religious practice. You come back and start ranting about their politics and other secular things.

How in the hell did you connect my comment about sacred undergarment and some illegals working in a mine in Utah?

I may be getting to be a real prick, but you are getting really sick.

159 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:53:32pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

"As ye sow, so shall ye reap. "
That's all I need to know.

160 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:53:38pm

re: #148 uncc_compman

I can't type today.

Heh, never even noticed. (For some reason my system locked up and I had to re-boot, which is why it took so long to see your comment.)

161 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:55:13pm
162 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:55:30pm

re: #159 Capitalist Tool

That and
"A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you."

163 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:55:40pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

I think you borrowed that thinking directly from Islam which does teach that to their adherants.
But the Bible was already translated into new languages by Jesus' day and he said he wanted it translated even more.
Read Matthew 28: 19 and 20.
There's nothing so deep that it is only understandable in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek in it.

164 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:55:43pm

re: #153 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh: Why am I always having to defend myself from constant, baseless rumors and unwarranted libel? I AM NOT a part of the "religious right", and I DO NOT run the Republican party. If I did, Rudy would be President elect right now.

And before anyone gets started with that other baseless rumor I often see, I had absolutely nothing to do with Job, and was no where near Uz at that time. Sheesh!
///

LOL... O.K. I'll back off now ;-)

165 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:55:56pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

Which is way I have a collection in the original languages, interlinears and dictionaries. When I have a question, I look at the sources and compare various translation, and expositions. It's worth the effort.

166 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:56:24pm

AARRRGGGHHH, "Daschle to lead HHS"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

167 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:56:47pm

re: #166 CapeCoddah

That's weird because he LOOKS sick.

168 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:57:16pm

re: #163 mean Gene


I waas thinking particularly of Thou shalt not kill versus Thou shalt do no murder. A world of difference.

169 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:57:37pm

re: #166 CapeCoddah

AARRRGGGHHH, "Daschle to lead HHS"
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh, so it won't be Blagojevich... Interesting...

170 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:57:39pm

re: #56 subsailor68

OT

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

It's Jim DeMint, and - in a nutshell - he believes there will be riots if the bailout IS put in place.

Maybe it's just me, but the kind of people who oppose the bailouts seem to be more like the folks here.

And from what I've learned of the LGF folks, riots aren't part of the deal.

A trip to the ballot box is more like it.

new threat du jour

171 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:58:07pm

re: #99 Spiritualized

Duck and Cover!

Well, I would hope that it would include these components:

1) interceptors: even if you can't stop all the incoming warheads, stopping some of them would be a help.

2) civil defense help: equipment for monitoring radiation, stocks of essentials such as iodine [to preempt possible absorption of strontium 90], water decontamination equipment, firefighting equipment, and civil engineering equipment.

3) intelligence help, to the extent we have anything to offer.

And by the way, duck and cover is not a bad idea. In the event of a major nuclear attack by Iran on Israel, many people would be outside the bombs' footprint of total annihilation. Some would inevitably die of fire and radiation poisoning, but others could be saved. Having a few minutes warning, in which to assemble, or just reach, a hasty blast and fallout shelter, could make all the difference.

One hopes that Iranian officers have thought through the consequences of the fact that Tehran is not fireproof or bombproof. Nor Qom. And wars have a habit of getting out of hand. Where could one draw the limits?

172 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:58:35pm

re: #165 jcm

Which is way I have a collection in the original languages, interlinears and dictionaries. When I have a question, I look at the sources and compare various translation, and expositions. It's worth the effort.

And we know it has been edited. The Council of Nicea being most famous.

173 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:58:38pm

re: #165 jcm

Which is way I have a collection in the original languages, interlinears and dictionaries. When I have a question, I look at the sources and compare various translation, and expositions. It's worth the effort.

Truly commendable!

174 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:59:09pm

re: #170 albusteve

new threat du jour

I like DeMint a lot but saying that is just damn stupid...

175 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:59:24pm

re: #170 albusteve

new threat du jour

Oui.

176 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:59:36pm

re: #157 Sharmuta

Fair enough, but I think you're wrong. The Christian right does have a lot of power in the party. It is who the McCain-Palin team turned to first when Bristol Palin's pregnancy was leaked. Why would that have been necessary if they weren't a major factor in the party?

Sure, I think they have some power, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that Palin's appeal was all religious.

Since McCain is not really a conservative (in my view) and Palin clearly is, it seems only natural that McCain would pick her to make up for his deficit.

Her appeal was clearly more broad than a small block of literalist Christians.

177 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:59:41pm

re: #170 albusteve

new threat du jour

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

178 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 12:59:58pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

"In the begining, there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be Light!'. There was still nothing, but now you could see it."

179 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:03pm

re: #172 Peacekeeper

And we know it has been edited. The Council of Nicea being most famous.

Pretty sure the Council of Nicea decided which writings would be included in the bible.

180 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:04pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

I will second that. I have some relations who are scholars, in Jerusalem, who speak Hebrew, Latin and Greek, and even they have trouble at times.
These are Christians with Anglo last names.

181 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:16pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

Don't forget the loafers.

182 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:16pm

re: #133 Dirk Diggler

buzzsawmonkey,


For what its worth, my religion instructs me to go commando.

Hope you don't live in Alaska - brrr! ;-)

183 uncc_compman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:22pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Creationists do not accept evolution.

I disagree, I have no problem with micro-evolution, which is what Darwin studied at the Galapagos Islands. Species do change and adapt to their surroundings, or they would die off as a species.

My problem is with macro-evolution, which I see as taking the the ideas of micro-evolution and extrapolating their effects over time.

However, I must say the discussions here on LGF have made me reexamine my beliefs. At one point, when I was in middle school I believed in literal biblical creation and even geocentricity. However over time as I have learned more, I have questioned these ideas, and in part of postings and discussions here are taking a second look at what I believe.

However, I am definitely anti-ID being taught in the classroom, and agree totally with the description of it being creationism redressed, and have even heard it being described as a way to get creationism in the classroom by people on the "inside".

184 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:34pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

Throw our gin and tonics across the lawn...

185 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:40pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the schoolchildren of Texas." (Story apocryphal, but fun anyway)


-

186 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:41pm

re: #174 tfc3rid

I like DeMint a lot but saying that is just damn stupid...

Thank you! When I read the article, that was my first thought too.

187 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:44pm

re: #164 eschew_obfuscation

LOL... O.K. I'll back off now ;-)

As long as you get that I was joking, it's all good.

P.S.: I am not at all monstrous. I'm actually a pretty nice guy once you get to know me. And if I seem a bit stand-offish at first, it's not because I'm stuck-up. I'm just a little shy. :)

188 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:48pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

NOT THE CASHMERE!

189 Nevergiveup  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:00:50pm

re: #171 lostlakehiker

2 or 3 well place nuclear devices all but eliminates Israel as a nation. End of discussion. Any talk about "retaliation" is fine and dandy, but misses the point.

190 monkeytime  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:01:08pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Creationists do not accept evolution.

Then "Creationist" excludes people who believe in a Creator but also in evolution?

191 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:01:33pm

re: #178 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"In the begining, there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be Light!'. There was still nothing, but now you could see it."

Someone more knowledgeable than I will correct me, but I think the Hebrew is "Y'hee Or." Rough translation: There will be light. Much more powerful language.

192 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:01:50pm

He also said the Iraqis would welcome us as liberators, we can trust Saudi Arabia, Abu Mazen is a man of peace, The "Palestinians" want peace & will have a state (2x), mission accomplished, Jesus was his favorite role model (I guess that only means if he actually existed)...

193 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:01:51pm

A quick question for the Biblical literalists out there. Which version of the Bible is the correct one. Looking at history the first bibles where conscripted by Constantine in 325 AD. This means that there where 300 years without an actual bible. It came down to one man to put together the list of books to be included in the bible. Some known to be written will after the time of Christ. How can you take something written by man as the literal word of God. Do the Jews look at their holy books this way? What about the books that did not make it into the Bible, are they any less holy?

194 uncc_compman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:01:52pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

Yea, but that won't stop some people from believing that the King James Version is the only correct version of the bible.

195 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:01pm

re: #184 rawmuse

Throw our gin and tonics across the lawn...

Burn our keycards to the country club gates!

196 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:05pm

It just dawned on me.

Since mid-October, when it looked like Obama was going to win the election, there sure has been a lot of Change™ - just not in a good way. Not much Hope™ though.

197 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:17pm

re: #163 mean Gene

198 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:19pm
199 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:24pm

re: #179 CapeCoddah

Pretty sure the Council of Nicea decided which writings would be included in the bible.

Not mine!

200 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:38pm

re: #178 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"In the begining, there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be Light!'. There was still nothing, but now you could see it."

Hey! The Big Bang produced a whole lotta light...and stuff. But I still couldn't see it, 'cause I wasn't here...or there...or then?

201 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:40pm

re: #189 Nevergiveup

2 or 3 well place nuclear devices all but eliminates Israel as a nation. End of discussion. Any talk about "retaliation" is fine and dandy, but misses the point.

DO NOT QUESTION THE O!

202 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:49pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

And nary a drop of their extra dry martinis spilled as they rampaged up and down Rodeo Drive looking for bargains.

203 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:02:57pm
One blogger at the conservative Washington Times, commented the next morning, "I already have an e-mail from a former Bush administration official who writes, 'This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.'"

He's completed %98.63 of his presidency! What does he care?!

204 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:01pm

re: #181 Creeping Eruption

Don't forget the loafers.

They should get jobs, dammit!

205 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:05pm

re: #183 uncc_compman

creationism

1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, esp. in the first chapter of Genesis.

Creationists reject evolution and adhere to Biblical literalism.

206 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:13pm

re: #163 mean Gene

I think you borrowed that thinking directly from Islam which does teach that to their adherants.
But the Bible was already translated into new languages by Jesus' day and he said he wanted it translated even more.
Read Matthew 28: 19 and 20.
There's nothing so deep that it is only understandable in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek in it.

That is not true. Constantine commissioned the Bible.

207 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:25pm

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

Walter, I posted this in response to you on the prior thread, but I wanted to make sure you see it:

I'm sure the Mormons here have taken my comments in good fun, as they were intended;

And I posted this on the earlier thread in response: I didn't take his teasing as mean. Besides, we are already planning to condemn Buzzsaw to the 7th level of Dante's inferno during our next cub scout pack meeting secret ceremony. :-p

208 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:26pm

re: #193 The_Vig

A quick question for the Biblical literalists out there. Which version of the Bible is the correct one. Looking at history the first bibles where conscripted by Constantine in 325 AD. This means that there where 300 years without an actual bible. It came down to one man to put together the list of books to be included in the bible. Some known to be written will after the time of Christ. How can you take something written by man as the literal word of God. Do the Jews look at their holy books this way? What about the books that did not make it into the Bible, are they any less holy?

A quick question for the Christian-centric doubters out there... My "bible" was "written" by G-d, and there is only one version.

209 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:39pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

We'll go out and scrupulously and obnoxiously obey the law...

210 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:39pm

re: #183 uncc_compman

Have you seen the recent Tiktaalik & related fossils etc? If that's not macro, I don't know what else could convince you.

211 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:51pm

I believe that I have responsibility to witness, to declare I believe in God. But I know I don't I speak for God. Some people get confused about that detail.

212 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:03:57pm

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
Does Bush look bald in that photo to anyone else?

213 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:04:08pm

Creeping Eruption,

Someone more knowledgeable than I will correct me, but I think the Hebrew is "Y'hee Or."

The first words ever uttered by the Most High were "Yahtzee"?

214 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:04:22pm

re: #184 rawmuse

rawmuse is now your friend!

I can haz friends!

215 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:04:45pm

re: #209 LGoPs

We'll go out and scrupulously and obnoxiously obey the law...

ROTFL! That'll show 'em!

216 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:04:46pm

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

If you tell more people, I'm sure you can Solomon the tenets of your faith.

No, you're thinking of the "Song of Salomon", which sets forth my religion's skiing instructions.

217 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:14pm

re: #211 Peacekeeper

I believe that I have responsibility to witness, to declare I believe in God. But I know I don't I speak for God. Some people get confused about that detail.

A million up-dings if I could.

218 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:23pm

re: #214 Sharmuta

That is me, friend to the friendless, comforting the afflicted, afflicting the comfortable.

219 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:27pm
220 maddogg  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:35pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

I am obviously not a republican.

221 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:46pm

re: #185 Occasional Reader

"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the schoolchildren of Texas." (Story apocryphal, but fun anyway)


-

I heard of a book : The Bible in plain english as Jesus actually spoke it. No clue if it was an actual publication.

222 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:48pm

re: #190 monkeytime

Then "Creationist" excludes people who believe in a Creator but also in evolution?

Yes.

223 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:05:50pm

re: #197 jcm

My response disappeared... (divine intervention? ;-P)

A lot of scriptural depth has been lost in English translations. Either poor translation, lack of nuance and accuracy in English its self, or forsaking "readability" for accuracy.

224 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:06:19pm
225 monkeytime  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:06:24pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

Yes.

Thank you dear.

226 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:06:30pm

re: #7 The_Vig

People who take the Bible literally are funny,

and scary.

So, I'm funny...amd scary.

You think I'm funny and scary, wait till you meet God!

227 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:06:35pm

re: #191 Creeping Eruption

Someone more knowledgeable than I will correct me, but I think the Hebrew is "Y'hee Or." Rough translation: There will be light. Much more powerful language.

I think it actually went;

"Let there be sound", there was sound
"let there be light", there was light
"Let there be drums", there was drums
"Let there be guitar", there was guitar
"Let there be rock"

I might be wrong though.

228 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:06:40pm

re: #211 Peacekeeper

I believe that I have responsibility to witness

Me, I didn't see nothin'.

And I ain't no snitch.

229 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:06:56pm

re: #226 A Kiwi Infidel

So, I'm funny...amd and scary.

You think I'm funny and scary, wait till you meet God!

And I cant type...

230 mrsnuggles  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:07:07pm

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

231 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:07:31pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

No

232 monkeytime  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:07:38pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

no.

233 Nevergiveup  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:08:10pm

ANDERSON — A trio of Anderson girls are in hot water with their fast-food employer for dipping themselves into the sink used to clean dishes.The photos, which appeared to have been posted late last month, showed the girls bathing in the deep commercial sink and posing in their underwear and swimwear.

[Link: m.redding.com...]

Finger licken good!

234 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:08:13pm

Who cares what Bush said.
He's stoopid!

And on the Eighth Day, Dog created cars to chase...

235 The_Vig  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:08:22pm

re: #226 A Kiwi Infidel

I can't wait to meet God, I have so many questions that his lackey's from all faiths have not been able to adequately answer.

236 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:08:31pm

re: #227 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No, you pretty much got it right.

237 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:08:38pm

All I know is - after I die if I can't make dinosaurs and have them battle each other I'm going to be seriously pissed off. Because man, that would just be awesome.

238 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:08:39pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

No. I also believe that.

I also know that's not a testable hypothesis and not science.

239 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:09:08pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with it at all. That is, unless you want to force Biblical literalism into schools via the science classroom (or any other classroom) because it undermines our Constitution. Other than that, you're free to believe whatever you'd like.

240 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:09:15pm

I really don't see what all the Fuss is about. With President Bush saying the bible was 'Probably not' literally true, he was dissembling enough to state what the evolutionists were saying while not really dissing the creationists. It's a Verbal punt of a religous hand grenade and in hindsight the smart thing to do.

Even so...the die hards are throwing hissy fits worthy of Islamic Fundamentalists.

*sigh*

Oy

241 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:09:26pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

Nope. I believe that as well. I just differ with the ID crowd over the time line and mechanisms that he decided to use.

242 monkeytime  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:09:32pm

re: #238 jcm

No. I also believe that.

I also know that's not a testable hypothesis and not science.


upding. upding. upding.

243 Gordon Marock  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:09:33pm

Why doesn't the Bible mention Sleestaks? And, what about the Pakuni?

244 Silhouette  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:05pm

re: #238 jcm

I also know that's not a testable hypothesis and not science.

By defintion, the supernatural cannot be measured by natural means.

245 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:07pm
Looking at history the first bibles where conscripted by Constantine in 325 AD.

That's called revisionism. He did no such thing.

246 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:10pm

re: #144 Occasional Reader

My religion's precepts on the subject are summed up in the "Song of Thongs".

Winning song of the battle of the bands between Sodom and Gemorrah?

247 Salem  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:26pm

re: #155 Peacekeeper

Actually, since the Bible wasn't written or even conceived in English, us Americans have got to be careful about interpreting it.

But never about believing it anyway, right? Even though you acknowledge not knowing if your interpretation is correct. What if it's incorrect? See you in hell!

248 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:28pm

re: #235 The_Vig

I can't wait to meet God, I have so many questions that his lackey's from all faiths have not been able to adequately answer.

1. The egg.
2. 42.

There you go. 2 down, a few more to go.
/

249 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:37pm

re: #223 jcm

My response disappeared... (divine intervention? ;-P)

A lot of scriptural depth has been lost in English translations. Either poor translation, lack of nuance and accuracy in English its self, or forsaking "readability" for accuracy.


I often wonder how much is lost from lack of understanding of contemporary cultural practices and historical context.

250 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:37pm

Oh COME ON people!
Everyone knows that God didn't create the earth...
WALTER CRONKITE DID!
And that's the way it is...

251 kafir lover  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:10:59pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

actually, no -

God produced the things he produced, and then allowed the creation to produce from the things that were originally put in place.

252 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:11:00pm

Now that he can't run for office any more, he can finally toss the loony right under the bus.

How damn sad that he didn't do it earlier, like say around the time of the Terry Schiavo case.

These creationist types are about the only large group that still supports the guy, but hey, he's pretty much done anyway.

253 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:11:11pm

re: #244 Silhouette

By defintion, the supernatural cannot be measured by natural means.

'zactly, THE point the IDer's miss.

254 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:11:48pm

re: #194 uncc_compman

Yea, but that won't stop some people from believing that the King James Version is the only correct version of the bible.

Which one the original 1604 version or the Authorized 1611 version?

/evil grin

255 Nevergiveup  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:11:57pm

Israel complains to UN of Iranian VP who called for destruction of Zionism

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Yup gonna get right on it I'm sure?

256 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:12:07pm

re: #243 Gordon Marock

Why doesn't the Bible mention Sleestaks? And, what about the Pakuni?

It never mentions the following either:
cats
skunks
raccoons
moose
prairie dogs
naked mole rats
canadian geese
and a bunch of other animals.

257 Gordon Marock  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:12:23pm

re: #244 Silhouette

By defintion, the supernatural cannot be measured by natural means.

Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity.

258 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:12:31pm

re: #183 uncc_compman

I disagree, I have no problem with micro-evolution, which is what Darwin studied at the Galapagos Islands. Species do change and adapt to their surroundings, or they would die off as a species.

My problem is with macro-evolution, which I see as taking the the ideas of micro-evolution and extrapolating their effects over time.

However, I must say the discussions here on LGF have made me reexamine my beliefs. At one point, when I was in middle school I believed in literal biblical creation and even geocentricity. However over time as I have learned more, I have questioned these ideas, and in part of postings and discussions here are taking a second look at what I believe.

However, I am definitely anti-ID being taught in the classroom, and agree totally with the description of it being creationism redressed, and have even heard it being described as a way to get creationism in the classroom by people on the "inside".

Updinged...but the difference between microevolution and macroevolution is simply two populations being isolated long enough for their cumulative genetic divergence to prevent them from interbreeding. There should be no problem in understanding or accepting it.

I do note that you have come a long way from where you once were, and I applaud you for that.

259 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:12:57pm

re: #234 IslandLibertarian

Who cares what Bush said.
He's stoopid!

And on the Eighth Day, Dog created cars to chase...

And on every day, my dog says "Let there be cookie!"

260 debutaunt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:13:01pm

re: #152 Capitalist Tool

Buckskins and surreys?

Geese 'n chicks 'n ducks.

261 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:13:55pm

re: #256 Honorary Yooper

It never mentions the following either:
cats
skunks
raccoons
moose
prairie dogs
naked mole rats
canadian geese
and a bunch of other animals.

Microsoft
ipods
Youtube
LCD TV's

/I don't believe in anything outside the Bawble...

262 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:13:56pm

re: #247 Salem

I definitely don't speak for you.

263 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:14:08pm

re: #246 Creeping Eruption

Winning song of the battle of the bands between Sodom and Gemorrah?

No, it lost out to "Gomorrah see you, the more I want you, somehow this feeling just grows and grows..."

264 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:14:19pm

re: #249 eschew_obfuscation

I often wonder how much is lost from lack of understanding of contemporary cultural practices and historical context.

There's that also...

That's a lot harder to articulate in a translation, probably impossible, but some can be studied and clues to scripture can be gained. It's not easy.

265 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:14:37pm

re: #99 Spiritualized

Duck and Cover!

Obama's Empty Promise to Nuke Iran if It Nukes Israel Just a Tough-Sounding Fig-Leaf to Obscure Fact He Intends to Let Teheran Have Nukes

266 Opinionated  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:14:48pm

Is Jesus still his favorite favorite political philosopher?

When are Social and Religious Conservatives going to realize that politicians use and abuse them?

267 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:15:58pm

re: #265 Dustyvet

Obama's Empty Promise to Nuke Iran if It Nukes Israel Just a Tough-Sounding Fig-Leaf to Obscure Fact He Intends to Let Teheran Have Nukes

Who wakes up in the morning and thinks it is a good idea to let Iran become nuclear armed? Scary that the new POTUS thinks it is just fine and dandy!

268 3 wood  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:16:44pm

OT:

Just got off the phone with some connections in Chicago. The declarations by Mayor Daley and Obama that it's open season on Blago have worked their magic. I'm hearing that people have walked into the investigators offices about Blago and they just can't get them to shut up. The investigators are getting tired listening to it all.

This is going to be good.

Also, just heard that there is a new poll out in Chicago and Blago has an 8% approval rating. Must be the other State officials in the slammer comprising the 8%.

269 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:16:47pm

re: #266 Opinionated

Is Jesus still his favorite favorite political philosopher?

When are Social and Religious Conservatives going to realize that politicians use and abuse them?


Don't politicians pretty much use and abuse everybody?

270 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:17:17pm

re: #266 Opinionated

Is Jesus still his favorite favorite political philosopher?

When are Social and Religious Conservatives going to realize that politicians use and abuse them?

Funny you should say that as the fiscal Conservatives have been dressed as the 'gimp' with a fetish red ball strapped in their mouths and being forcibly raped from behind by the Big 'G' of Gubmint.

/sucks because I am a Social and Fiscal conservative...

271 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:17:26pm

re: #265 Dustyvet

Obama's Empty Promise to Nuke Iran if It Nukes Israel Just a Tough-Sounding Fig-Leaf to Obscure Fact He Intends to Let Teheran Have Nukes

A+ in Obama translation.

272 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:17:31pm
273 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:17:38pm

re: #263 Occasional Reader

No, it lost out to "Gomorrah see you, the more I want you, somehow this feeling just grows and grows..."

Really? I thought the winner was Sodom Chanted Evening.

274 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:18:25pm

re: #227 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think it actually went;

"Let there be sound", there was sound
"let there be light", there was light
"Let there be drums", there was drums
"Let there be guitar", there was guitar
"Let there be rock"

I might be wrong though.

I think we need someone who understands the nuances of Biblical Hebrew better than I. I think that translation "and God Said, Let there be . . " is a mistranslation from rules of modern Hebrew. When read under the modern rules, it appears as "and God said, etc." Under rules of construction fro Biblical Hebrew, the prefix changes the tense to the future. Hence my understanding: "There will be . . " etc. I wish someone else here would let me know whether I am full of shit on this account though. My Hebrew is beyond rusty.

275 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:19:04pm

I'm way out of my depth here, not having been able to discipline myself to read the Bible, (probably for the same reason I can't read poetry). But I would venture to think that what the Bible says is not inconsistent with science, mainly due to the fact that it is an allegorical account. Even if the original authors had been given knowledge and insight into modern scientific precepts, how in the heck could they have described it to their intended audience. How do you explain quantum mechanics to shepherds? Hell, I had professors valiantly try to explain it to me and I still don't understand. But the fact that creation and life were necessarily explained symbolically, doesn't make the underlying theme and concepts incompatible with modern science.
Just my humble, unschooled opinion.

276 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:19:08pm

re: #270 Oh no...Sand People!

Funny you should say that as the fiscal Conservatives have been dressed as the 'gimp' with a fetish red ball strapped in their mouths and being forcibly raped from behind by the Big 'G' of Gubmint.

/sucks because I am a Social and Fiscal conservative...

"I am pretty f***n' far from 'okay'."

277 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:19:37pm

What have the silly dinosaurs done now? They can play so rough sometimes!

I hope they haven't bitten any of the children!

278 Opinionated  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:19:40pm

re: #269 eschew_obfuscation

Don't politicians pretty much use and abuse everybody?

Maybe. But SoCons seem to demand such abuse.

It seems they insist that they be lied to about a politician's beliefs.

279 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:19:50pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

heh. nice trick. I've never even been on a golf cart and except for an old Army sweater they issued me, I don't even own one.

Can I overturn the liberal neighbors Escalade instead? ;-)>

280 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:20:14pm

re: #274 Creeping Eruption

I think we need someone who understands the nuances of Biblical Hebrew better than I. I think that translation "and God Said, Let there be . . " is a mistranslation from rules of modern Hebrew. When read under the modern rules, it appears as "and God said, etc." Under rules of construction fro Biblical Hebrew, the prefix changes the tense to the future. Hence my understanding: "There will be . . " etc. I wish someone else here would let me know whether I am full of shit on this account though. My Hebrew is beyond rusty.

Yeah, and why if Cherubim is plural and Seraphim is rendered plural and Urimm is rendered plural does that not make Elohim plural? If not..why not?

281 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:20:15pm

re: #279 Outrider

heh. nice trick. I've never even been on a golf cart and except for an old Army sweater they issued me, I don't even own one.

Can I overturn the liberal neighbors Escalade instead? ;-)>

Only if they are in it.

282 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:20:30pm

While you're all being distracted by this ID nonsense, far more important issues are going on out there. The NFL has gone on a crime spree since Plaxico Buress was arrested:


"Not all the news is bad," FBI assistant director Paula Witherspoon, a special agent in charge of major metropolitan crimes, said yesterday. "The theft of major Rodin sculptures from the Museum of Modern Art by a well-trained group of quarterback masterminds, while tragic, resulted in no loss of life, and we are currently questioning Tom Brady in the incident. The city of Green Bay has reported nothing worse than a 700 percent increase in public drunkenness. And we should all be proud of the citizens of Detroit, who managed to capture the Detroit Lions during a bank robbery in which the team forgot to load its guns and put gas in its getaway cars."

/from The Onion

283 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:20:40pm

re: #272 buzzsawmonkey

I'm surprised nobody has registered during one of the recent open sessions under the name "Mike Roevolution." Or "Mac Roevolution," for that matter.

The latter is for a Mac addict attempting to push the Word of Steve Jobs over on us heathens who use PCs.

284 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:21:19pm

Now, in a funny sense, I'm a "Biblical literalist". In the sense that I think that, for instance, the Book of Genesis was intended to be taken as literally true.

Of course, I don't think it is literally true.

285 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:21:21pm
"Evangelical Christians were conned into thinking that Bush was 'one of them,'" the Moral Collapse blogger concluded. "the reality is that he isn't one of them and he never was."

I find this to be a very disturbing statement. President Bush can't be an evangelical because he accepts evolution. No True Scotsman at work. And about as un-Christian as it can be.

And yet this is despite 8 years of pro-life positions from the President. It's not enough- he accepts evolution, so he goes under their bus. God help us.

286 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:21:25pm

If the Republican Party has to depend in the flat-earth crowd to survive, then the Republican Party is in a lot more trouble than it thinks it is.

287 right_on_target  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:22:01pm

re: #227 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think it actually went;

"Let there be sound", there was sound
"let there be light", there was light
"Let there be drums", there was drums
"Let there be guitar", there was guitar
"Let there be rock"

I might be wrong though.


___
Sandy Nelson - Let There Be Drums with racy pinups!

288 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:22:02pm

re: #281 CapeCoddah

Only if they are in it.

Bonus! That gives me an extra 10 points don't it?

289 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:22:24pm

re: #279 Outrider

heh. nice trick. I've never even been on a golf cart and except for an old Army sweater they issued me, I don't even own one.

Can I overturn the liberal neighbors Escalade instead? ;-)>

I'll hold your manhatten until you're done so you don't spill any...

290 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:22:47pm

re: #272 buzzsawmonkey

I'm surprised nobody has registered during one of the recent open sessions under the name "Mike Roevolution." Or "Mac Roevolution," for that matter.

I'm still waiting to register under "Mike Litoris".

291 uncc_compman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:22:58pm

re: #210 Thanos

Have you seen the recent Tiktaalik & related fossils etc? If that's not macro, I don't know what else could convince you.

I haddn't seen that before, thank you. I'll have to add that to my research.

292 Opinionated  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:04pm

Some Religious Conservatives who are also strong supporters of Israel got a clue about Bush when he insisted on creating a Palestinian State in Judea and Samaria and dividing Jerusalem.

293 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:13pm

re: #288 Outrider

Bonus! That gives me an extra 10 points don't it?

Liberals in an Escalade, 10 points for the lib aspect, an extra 50 for the hypocrite aspect.

294 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:15pm

re: #174 tfc3rid

I like DeMint a lot but saying that is just damn stupid...

DeMint represents South Carolina, which has a big BMW plant. Of course he opposes bailing out Michgan-based automakers. He's also right on principle, but the rhetoric is over the top.

The late, lamented Atlanta traffic reporter Keith Kalland used to say that if conservatives ever held a protest, it would be dozens of white guys in short-sleeved dress shirts and ties chanting "We beg to differ!"

295 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:35pm

re: #290 Occasional Reader

YIKES!

296 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:45pm
297 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:50pm

re: #284 Occasional Reader

Now, in a funny sense, I'm a "Biblical literalist". In the sense that I think that, for instance, the Book of Genesis was intended to be taken as literally true.

Of course, I don't think it is literally true.

we just call it 'hide the pickle'...really it's something else

298 interloper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:23:58pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

Agreed!

Given that there are Galaxies 15 billion light years away, It would be safe to say, on a golf-course in an electric storm, that the Bible's account of creation should not be taken literally.
I 've actually got a Koine Greek / Revised Standard English Lexicon Bible on the way in the mail so I'll let ya'all know, though.
Praise God

299 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:24:03pm

re: #233 Nevergiveup

Finger licken good!

Clearly you haven't seen the photos.

300 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:24:24pm

re: #277 experiencedtraveller

What have the silly dinosaurs done now? They can play so rough sometimes!

I hope they haven't bitten any of the children!

Actually, that photo brings up another perennial question: Were cavemen really always white? Or has pop culture been lying to us?

301 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:24:42pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

And here was my response to you...

TFK, look. I was making a comment about making fun of Mormons religious practice. You come back and start ranting about their politics and other secular things.

How in the hell did you connect my comment about sacred undergarment and some illegals working in a mine in Utah?

I may be getting to be a real prick, but you are getting really sick.

Uh, Walter ... hate to tell you this, but TFK is a lot saner than he used to be.

302 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:24:52pm

re: #280 Oh no...Sand People!

Yeah, and why if Cherubim is plural and Seraphim is rendered plural and Urimm is rendered plural does that not make Elohim plural? If not..why not?

Great question for someone who is qualified to answer. But it is curious given its use with singular verbs, nouns etc.

303 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:25:03pm

re: #10 harrylook

If I'm the outgoing Prez, after 2 brutal terms, after one of the most difficult presidencies in 50 years, I don't think I'm going to give a crap what anyone thinks, never mind a group of loons who think man walked the earth with dinosaurs.

Why would anyone be shocked by these remarks? Bush sounds like every United Methodist gent I've ever known. He's the guy that goes down the pews with a long handled basket, helps plan the annual picnic and oversees the building expansion project. You want me mad at him, talk about immigration, why hasn't he pardoned the border guards for crying out loud. Or how about that piece of work, Paulson and this obscene money pit approach to governance?

304 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:25:06pm

re: #289 eschew_obfuscation

I'll hold your manhatten until you're done so you don't spill any...

Thats got vermouth and bitters don't it? How about holding my JD? A man can work up a hell of a sweat tipping Escalades. Them puppies are big! Not like them wimpy little French cars the youts are tipping in France.

305 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:25:28pm

re: #290 Occasional Reader

I'm still waiting to register under "Mike Litoris".

Double-dog dare ya'.

306 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:25:34pm

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

You should put a sock (puppet) in that right now.

My next sock puppet is either Wong Long Dong or Enormous Genitals, whichever I can sneak in.

307 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:25:49pm

re: #99 Spiritualized

How exactly does that protect Israel? If Iran wants to bring about an apocalypse and/or destroy Israel to show its primacy among all Muslims and the world, they'd consider it an acceptable loss to trade millions of Iranians for the few remaining Jews living in Israel.

308 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:25:58pm
309 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:27pm

re: #284 Occasional Reader

Now, in a funny sense, I'm a "Biblical literalist". In the sense that I think that, for instance, the Book of Genesis was intended to be taken as literally true.

Of course, I don't think it is literally true.

That's pretty much my view as well. But we don't want christians thinking that, obviously...lol

310 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:33pm

re: #290 Occasional Reader

I'm still waiting to register under "Mike Litoris".

ORgasm?

311 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:33pm

re: #307 lawhawk

How exactly does that protect Israel? If Iran wants to bring about an apocalypse and/or destroy Israel to show its primacy among all Muslims and the world, they'd consider it an acceptable loss to trade millions of Iranians for the few remaining Jews living in Israel.

When asked this very question, they answered admitting such.

312 IslandLibertarian  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:33pm

re: #275 LGoPs

yeah, but talking donkeys?

Numbers 22:
27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. 28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

313 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:34pm

re: #304 Outrider

Not like them wimpy little French cars the youts are tipping in France.

Indeed. I mean, why NOT tip over a SmartCar? Don't you actually have to kind of work to not tip one over?


(yeah, I know, technically they're not French)

314 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:39pm

Let's not forget Hugh G. Rection...

315 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:26:59pm

re: #285 Sharmuta

I find this to be a very disturbing statement. President Bush can't be an evangelical because he accepts evolution. No True Scotsman at work. And about as un-Christian as it can be.

And yet this is despite 8 years of pro-life positions from the President. It's not enough- he accepts evolution, so he goes under their bus. God help us.

and it's admitted they are 'small but vocal' within the Gop...how small?...how loud will they become and how much will they pressure the party?...course thats all been asked already...I think it's a formidable problem to deal with in the next two years

316 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:27:01pm

re: #280 Oh no...Sand People!

This goes back to my days in Hebrew School, but I seem to recall that Elohim is plural because He is everywhere at once.

317 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:27:09pm

Sorry, but no person of faith will ever convince me that God and Jesus will reject me because I accept evolution. And any person of faith who thinks this should re-examine the real message in the Bible.

318 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:27:18pm

re: #285 Sharmuta

You make an excellent point that should be noted by future Republican candidates. If evangelical voters are so narrow-minded and disloyal that they'll withdraw their support from someone who is 95% in agreement with them over that last 5%, why should the GOP bend over backwards to court them?

319 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:27:23pm

re: #293 CapeCoddah

Liberals in an Escalade, 10 points for the lib aspect, an extra 50 for the hypocrite aspect.

Are there any more bonus points if they are drinking from imported bottled water? And if they have Streisdand on the CD player?

320 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:27:31pm

re: #314 CalBear84

Let's not forget Hugh G. Rection...

Well, there id also Dick Hertz, from Holden.

321 Opinionated  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:27:45pm

re: #99 Spiritualized

Duck and Cover!

It's such a deal.

If Israel is incinerated, the US will then act.

Although personally I believe at the end the acting will just be expanding the Holocaust Museum.

322 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:28:04pm

He would never ever have dared to say anything like that 8 years ago when trying to get elected.

All politicians are ^%%^%^&%!

323 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:28:13pm

re: #116 eschew_obfuscation

I take your point and pretty much agree.

But there were days when our God-given intelligence told us the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, gold could be made from lead...

We need to be sure we don't get too proud of our intelligence...allow room for error.

Aha! There's the flaw in that thinking. Flat earth, heliocentric Universe, alchemical transmutation of lead to gold; all of these are based on received wisdom from some ancient authority. It's the same thought (or lack thereof) process that's at work in religion: all that you need to know is there in one fat book. No reasoning required, just memorize all the passages and quote the one that most closely meets your needs of the moment. That's how Islam operates, and that's how the biblical literalists would have Christianity operate.

It was the dawning of the Age of Reason, and the development of the scientific method that led to the breakdown of that paradigm in the Western world, and to the unprecedented increase in wealth, comfort, health, and longevity that we have enjoyed over the past few hundred years.

324 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:28:14pm

re: #314 CalBear84

Let's not forget Hugh G. Rection...

The nice thing is, all our future sock puppets have already been registered to vote by ACORN.

325 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:28:22pm

re: #301 Son of the Black Dog

Uh, Walter ... hate to tell you this, but TFK is a lot saner than he used to be.

and he did not 'rant' on the previous thread or speak unfairly

326 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:28:33pm

re: #322 So?

All politicians are ^%%^%^&%!

Such language! Break out the bar of soap!

327 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:28:48pm

re: #319 Outrider

Are there any more bonus points if they are drinking from imported bottled water? And if they have Streisdand on the CD player?

Hell, take all the points you want. I hate hypocrites.

328 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:29:18pm

re: #321 Opinionated

Although personally I believe at the end the acting will just be expanding the Holocaust Museum.

Don't forget the candlelight vigils. They'll be very touching. Obama will be photographed at several of them, his eyes cast down, deep in thought. It'll be incredibly photogenic.

329 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:29:25pm
330 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:29:29pm

re: #171 lostlakehiker

Well, I would hope that it would include these components:

1) interceptors: even if you can't stop all the incoming warheads, stopping some of them would be a help.

2) civil defense help: equipment for monitoring radiation, stocks of essentials such as iodine [to preempt possible absorption of strontium 90], water decontamination equipment, firefighting equipment, and civil engineering equipment.

3) intelligence help, to the extent we have anything to offer.

And by the way, duck and cover is not a bad idea. In the event of a major nuclear attack by Iran on Israel, many people would be outside the bombs' footprint of total annihilation. Some would inevitably die of fire and radiation poisoning, but others could be saved. Having a few minutes warning, in which to assemble, or just reach, a hasty blast and fallout shelter, could make all the difference.

One hopes that Iranian officers have thought through the consequences of the fact that Tehran is not fireproof or bombproof. Nor Qom. And wars have a habit of getting out of hand. Where could one draw the limits?

Not a bad idea. Somewhere I remember reading that 90 percent of the casualties in the London blitz were caused by flying glass.

331 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:29:47pm

re: #230 mrsnuggles

I believe God created everything in existence. Is there something wrong with that?

If I remember Philosophy 101, Descartes basically took that belief and proved God existed with his "Cogito Ero Sum" argument. Most consider Descartes a genius.

You could be wrong, but you are in good company.

332 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:29:58pm

re: #301 Son of the Black Dog

who are you to judge?

333 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:30:03pm

re: #318 doppelganglander

You make an excellent point that should be noted by future Republican candidates. If evangelical voters are so narrow-minded and disloyal that they'll withdraw their support from someone who is 95% in agreement with them over that last 5%, why should the GOP bend over backwards to court them?

Great question. Politics is the art of compromise. If they are unwilling to make compromises, they shouldn't be in politics.

334 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:30:09pm

re: #314 CalBear84

Let's not forget Hugh G. Rection...

ROTFLMAO...

335 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:30:26pm

I'm so juvenile.

336 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:30:32pm

re: #328 Occasional Reader

Don't forget the candlelight vigils. They'll be very touching. Obama will be photographed at several of them, his eyes cast down, deep in thought. It'll be incredibly photogenic.

He will, like regarding the Blago-gate, be deeply saddened...

337 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:30:33pm

re: #305 MandyManners

Double-dog dare ya'.

Schwartz ultimately issues Flick a "triple dog dare" (the most serious of those used by the kids; he bypasses a "triple dare" from a "double dog dare", a serious boyhood protocol breach)

338 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:30:50pm

re: #319 Outrider

My favorite is the guy in the Prius with the 0bama sticker going 25mph over the posted speed limit...
Climate change my ass.

339 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:06pm
340 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:10pm

re: #329 buzzsawmonkey

Prior to that, the donkey's words appeared to Balaam as mere neigh-saying.

The meaning of which could not be assertained.

341 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:11pm

buzzsawmonkey,

Prior to that, the donkey's words appeared to Balaam as mere neigh-saying.

How ass-inine.

342 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:31pm

re: #337 Dustyvet

Schwartz ultimately issues Flick a "triple dog dare" (the most serious of those used by the kids; he bypasses a "triple dare" from a "double dog dare", a serious boyhood protocol breach)

Sounding like a Far Side cartoon now. lol

343 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:34pm

re: #13 jcm

Not only that, but understood correctly. There is a lot of misaiming in today's Christendom.

re: #6 Oh no...Sand People!

I believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

I believe the bible to be the word of God as long as its translation agrees with me.

344 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:34pm

re: #177 Peacekeeper

rioting republicans- what they're gonna overturn golfcarts and burn their sweaters?

What we need in this country is a good taxpayer revolt. Unfortunately we can't get one until at least 2010.

345 sneezey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:34pm

Good to hear him say this.

346 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:49pm

re: #329 buzzsawmonkey

Prior to that, the donkey's words appeared to Balaam as mere neigh-saying.

Wouldn't that be "Bray-saying?"

347 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:31:57pm

re: #334 LGoPs

Old Hugh is always good for a laugh!

348 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:32:04pm

re: #331 DeafDog

Descartes basically took that belief and proved God existed with his "Cogito Ero Sum" argument

"Cogito ergo sum" is a proof that *I* exist, not that God exists.

349 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:32:08pm

You are all just prejudiced against cavemen and their dinosaur friends.

350 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:32:10pm

re: #312 IslandLibertarian

yeah, but talking donkeys?

Numbers 22:
27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. 28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

*shrugs*...toldja I was unschooled...

351 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:32:18pm
352 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:32:32pm

re: #338 CalBear84

My favorite is the guy in the Prius with the 0bama sticker going 25mph over the posted speed limit...
Climate change my ass.

In the restricted commuter lane at rush hour by himself? ;-)>

353 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:32:35pm

Ahhh Climate Change... My firm just won a $3.5 Million CC study contract...

354 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:33:03pm

re: #346 MrSilverDragon

Wouldn't that be "Bray-saying?"

buzzsawmonkey pwned!

355 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:33:19pm

re: #316 lawhawk

This goes back to my days in Hebrew School, but I seem to recall that Elohim is plural because He is everywhere at once.

The polytheist in me wants to believe that he works by committee with the other two on his board of directors...

356 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:33:31pm

re: #345 sneezey

Where's Doc?

357 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:33:54pm

Our national wounds will never be healed until we elect a caveman President.

358 A.W.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:34:00pm

I found the rest of it more interesting and inciteful the last 10 seconds or so on evolution v. creationism.

But has the unremarkable view that God created the universe, etc., but in such a way that it doesn't appear to have been created at all.

Its like a line from, of all things, futurama, when God says: "when you are doing your job right, people are not sure if you are doing anything at all."

Or the old joke about the drowning man. A man ends up in the ocean, and he prays to God to save him. so then along comes a coast guard boat and they offer to rescue him. The man says, "no, i don't need it. I am waiting for God to rescue me." Then a helicopter comes by and the crew offeres to help, but the man says again he is waiting for God. Then he dies. Then he comes up to heaven and meets God and says, "why didn't you save me?"

And God replies, "what are you talking about? i sent a boat and a helicopter."

So say an atheist scientist goes to heaven and meets God. And needless to say he is stunned. And God says, "I am your creator." And the mortal says, "are you kidding? there was an atom, and a big bang, and primordial ooze and milliions of years of evolution. you didn't create me?"

And God says "what are you talking about? I created that atom."

Like I said, a wholly unremarkable comment from Bush. And if there are people bothered by the idea he doesn't believe exactly as they do, well, tough on them. Those people are like the biblical scholars who
debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. they are the biblical version of trekkies. they obsess on something that is beside the point.

That is right. whether the bible is literally true or not is beside the point. Bush and all the people who think like him agree on one central fact: that we are God's deliberate creations. Everything else is gravy.

359 ruffy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:34:13pm

As a creationist, I happen not to be fuming mad. Foolish "theories" abound everywhere, in the president's office too, and even at LGF's helm. If everything that missuited my fancy got me mad, woe is me.

360 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:34:15pm

re: #326 MrSilverDragon

Such language! Break out the bar of soap!

Funny how you focused on the second 1/2 of my post and not the first.

361 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:34:35pm

re: #353 tfc3rid

No kidding?
I'll save you guys a lot of work...
Climate changes.

362 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:34:59pm

re: #359 ruffy

As a creationist, I happen not to be fuming mad. Foolish "theories" abound everywhere, in the president's office too, and even at LGF's helm. If everything that missuited my fancy got me mad, woe is me.

I take it you're not a Muslim.

363 Opinionated  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:35:04pm

Bush has to dial down his Christianity so that when he retires he can do what he loves best: go to Riyadh and compete in Dancing with the Sheiks.

364 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:35:08pm

re: #352 Outrider

Yeah!
That's the guy.

365 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:35:11pm

re: #357 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Our national wounds will never be healed until we elect a caveman President.

OT: how about K-Rod and a Putz?

366 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:35:24pm

re: #339 buzzsawmonkey

Descartes' "Cogito Ergo Sum" ("I think, therefore I am") exists here as "Cognito Argue Some."

True. And Descartes, and LGF fan, uses the pseudonym "Charles"...or is that God himself with that handle?

367 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:35:32pm

re: #360 So?

Funny how you focused on the second 1/2 of my post and not the first.

I read it and did not disagree.

368 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:35:43pm

re: #361 CalBear84

No kidding?
I'll save you guys a lot of work...
Climate changes.

That didn't cost $3.5 Million... Come on Bloomberg wants a better answer than that...

369 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:36:16pm

re: #338 CalBear84

My favorite is the guy in the Prius with the 0bama sticker going 25mph over the posted speed limit...
Climate change my ass.

Wait till you get Tornado hemorrhoids!

370 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:36:16pm

re: #366 DeafDog

Huh?

371 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:36:26pm

re: #358 A.W.

Those people are like the biblical scholars who
debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. they are the biblical version of trekkies. they obsess on something that is beside the point.

As if! Kirk can create a way better universe than Picard!

373 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:36:43pm

re: #339 buzzsawmonkey

Descartes' "Cogito Ergo Sum" ("I think, therefore I am") exists here as "Cognito Argue Some."

Good thing you posted this after your misidentified "neigh" pun. Otherwise, you'd be putting Descartes before the horse.

374 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:37:11pm

re: #368 tfc3rid

That didn't cost $3.5 Million... Come on Bloomberg wants a better answer than that...

Blame it all on Mets management.

375 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:37:22pm

re: #333 Sharmuta

Great question. Politics is the art of compromise. If they are unwilling to make compromises, they shouldn't be in politics.

For years, evangelical preachers taught that believers shouldn't be involved in the world. Lots of them didn't even vote until the Moral Majority got started in 1979. While I believe everyone should vote, and it's fine for your religious beliefs to inform your vote, I really dislike religious figures getting involved in politics.

376 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:37:23pm

re: #359 ruffy

As a creationist, I happen not to be fuming mad. Foolish "theories" abound everywhere, in the president's office too, and even at LGF's helm. If everything that missuited my fancy got me mad, woe is me.

pretty healthy 'tude...rock on amigo

377 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:37:33pm

re: #362 MandyManners

I take it you're not a Muslim.

Muslims are always mad...it's like it's their job...
/

378 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:37:38pm

re: #367 MrSilverDragon

I read it and did not disagree.

Glad to hear that.

Then I'll tell you I'm having trouble choosing between Dove and Oil of Olay.

379 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:38:17pm

re: #365 tfc3rid

OT: how about K-Rod and a Putz?

I always thought that Johnny Damon looked a lot like the Geico Caveman when he was playing for the Sox.

380 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:38:20pm

Well, chiming out.

Later all.

381 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:38:33pm

re: #377 LGoPs

Muslims are always mad...it's like it's their job...
/

If they ask for a pay raise, they are sent on a mission.

382 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:38:36pm

re: #374 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Blame it all on Mets management.

I'm not that mad at Omar today...

383 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:38:48pm
384 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:38:58pm

re: #356 MandyManners

Where's Doc?

I rear-ended a car this morning. I knew it was going to be a really bad day!

The driver got out of the other car and I looked down and realized he was a dwarf!

He looked up at me and said “I’M NOT HAPPY!”

So I said, “Well then, which one are you?”

And that’s how the fight started.

385 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:39:16pm

re: #348 Occasional Reader

"Cogito ergo sum" is a proof that *I* exist, not that God exists.

Yes the famous line is the middle of the argument on his proof of God, not the end of the argument.

Descartes starts with seven doubt makers to show that nothing can be believed. But one thing can be believed - Cogito Ergo Sum.

Furthermore, Descartes continues, within him is a belief of a greater being. He can't exist without that belief and so the greater being must therefore exist since he exists.

386 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:39:22pm

re: #341 Dirk Diggler

buzzsawmonkey,


How ass-inine.

Ours go the assi-eleven, for the extra oomph.

387 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:39:52pm

re: #368 tfc3rid

Well...OK maybe you better send up a satellite or build some weather monitoring stations in Siberia.

388 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:39:55pm

re: #331 DeafDog

If I remember Philosophy 101, Descartes basically took that belief and proved God existed with his "Cogito Ero Sum" argument. Most consider Descartes a genius.

You could be wrong, but you are in good company.

Actually, the widespread aceptance of Descartes' Ghost in the Machine view of humans has greatly hindered our advance, as has the acceptance of Locke's Blank Slate and Rosseau's Noble Savage.

[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

And what Decartes proved with Cogito, ergo sum was that the thinking self must exist, or else it could not even consider the question of whether it existed or not.

389 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:40:16pm

re: #371 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

As if! Kirk can create a way better universe than Picard!

Absolutely. I mean, Picard's "perfect" universe in the "Nexus" wound up having Whoopi Goldberg in it, fer pete's sake.

390 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:40:46pm

re: #373 Occasional Reader

Good thing you posted this after your misidentified "neigh" pun. Otherwise, you'd be putting Descartes before the horse.

This pun war is going to be surrey-al.

391 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:41:03pm

re: #369 So?

ROFL...I hate when that happens.

392 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:41:18pm

re: #377 LGoPs

Muslims are always mad...it's like it's their job...
/

It's on their resumes.

393 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:41:25pm

re: #384 Dustyvet

I rear-ended a car this morning. I knew it was going to be a really bad day!

The driver got out of the other car and I looked down and realized he was a dwarf!

He looked up at me and said “I’M NOT HAPPY!”

So I said, “Well then, which one are you?”

And that’s how the fight started.

You must not have been very good at "rear-ending dwarves" ;~P

394 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:41:42pm

re: #359 ruffy

As a creationist, I happen not to be fuming mad. Foolish "theories" abound everywhere, in the president's office too, and even at LGF's helm. If everything that missuited my fancy got me mad, woe is me.

Did you just say that Charles is foolish, or am I misreading?

395 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:41:47pm

re: #384 Dustyvet

I rear-ended a car this morning. I knew it was going to be a really bad day!

The driver got out of the other car and I looked down and realized he was a dwarf!

He looked up at me and said “I’M NOT HAPPY!”

So I said, “Well then, which one are you?”

And that’s how the fight started.

Did he bite your ankle before or after punching your shin?

396 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:41:52pm

re: #383 buzzsawmonkey

The question is not how many angels; the question is whether they are doing tap, softshoe, foxtrot, waltz, clog dancing, minuet--oh, the infinity of possibilities just might cause another schism!

Picture angels dirty dancing on the head of a pin.

397 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:11pm

re: #385 DeafDog

He can't exist without that belief and so the greater being must therefore exist since he exists.

Of course, there are a couple of things obviously wrong with that line of "reasoning" (if it can even be called that).

398 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:18pm

re: #394 scottishbuzzsaw

He did.

399 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:31pm

re: #394 scottishbuzzsaw

Did you just say that Charles is foolish, or am I misreading?

yes he did...interesting no?

400 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:45pm

re: #388 Salamantis

Wasn't Descartes trying to answer the question:
"Is there anything I can know with absolute certainty?"

401 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:56pm
402 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:59pm

re: #171 lostlakehiker

"2) civil defense help: equipment for monitoring radiation, stocks of essentials such as iodine [to preempt possible absorption of strontium 90], water decontamination equipment, firefighting equipment, and civil engineering equipment."

Hiker, that is all good counsel. Just one factual note: iodine pills are for the purpose of saturating one's body with normal (non-radioactive) iodine, so it won't take up the radio-iodine that comprises a portion of the fallout from a nuclear blast. It's aimed at preventing thyroid cancer that could be caused by one's thyroid absorbing radio-iodine. Iodine pills will do nothing to prevent absorption of Strontium-90. Strontium tends to mimic calcium chemically. The "classic" mode of human strontium-90 uptake would be to drink milk from cattle that had grazed upon fields contaminated by that isotope. The best way to avoid Sr-90 uptake would be to avoid eating any calcium-rich foods that had not been tested and pronounced safe.

403 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:42:59pm

re: #389 Occasional Reader

Absolutely. I mean, Picard's "perfect" universe in the "Nexus" wound up having Whoopi Goldberg in it, fer pete's sake.

It also had Shatner...

404 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:43:04pm

re: #394 scottishbuzzsaw

Did you just say that Charles is foolish, or am I misreading?

Oh, shit. I meant to down-ding.

405 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:43:25pm
406 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:43:46pm

re: #392 MandyManners

It's on their resumes.

They read it in a book somewhere...

407 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:00pm

re: #404 MandyManners

*whack*

408 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:09pm

re: #404 MandyManners

Oh, shit. I meant to down-ding.

The dings are now reversible.

409 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:18pm
410 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:30pm

re: #392 MandyManners

It's on their resumes.

Lets see, Mr. al-Ackbar, you participated in riots last year in Paris and Rotterdam, very good. You were seen on CNN burning an American flag, good. Uh-oh. Your references are all Shi'ites. That's not so good.

411 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:31pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Belgian police arrest 'al Qaeda legend'
With bonus picture!

that's HER!

412 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:45pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Belgian police arrest 'al Qaeda legend'
With bonus picture!

Malika El-Aroud was quoted during her arrest as saying "I'm Batman."

413 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:48pm

re: #401 buzzsawmonkey

Angels can't dirty dance; they are part of the Heavenly host, and cleanliness is next to Godliness.

I would posit that, notwithstanding the term "dirty," when undertaken by angelic beauties, it is next to Godliness.

414 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:44:48pm

re: #390 doppelganglander

This pun war is going to be surrey-al.

Anybody joining this pun war needs to pony up

415 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:45:17pm

re: #359 ruffy

As a creationist, I happen not to be fuming mad. Foolish "theories" abound everywhere, in the president's office too, and even at LGF's helm. If everything that missuited my fancy got me mad, woe is me.

Well, your comment makes it surpassingly clear that foolish dogmas still abound.

416 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:45:40pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Belgian police arrest 'al Qaeda legend'
With bonus picture!

I'm smitten! Those eyes! And... er... those eyes! Did I mention the eyes?

417 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:45:48pm

re: #384 Dustyvet

I rear-ended a car this morning. I knew it was going to be a really bad day!

The driver got out of the other car and I looked down and realized he was a dwarf!

He looked up at me and said “I’M NOT HAPPY!”

So I said, “Well then, which one are you?”

And that’s how the fight started.

Had to have been Grumpy...

418 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:45:53pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

Bad joke. never mind.

419 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:46:14pm

re: #404 MandyManners

You did down ding

420 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:46:29pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Wow, great link.
So her hubby was one of the guys who blew up Massoud.
The guy survived the Red Army and got whacked by jihadists.
Oh, the irony.

421 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:46:33pm

re: #414 LGoPs

Anybody joining this pun war needs to pony up

Personally, I think we need to rein it in.

422 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:46:34pm

re: #389 Occasional Reader

Absolutely. I mean, Picard's "perfect" universe in the "Nexus" wound up having Whoopi Goldberg in it, fer pete's sake.

Kirk is definitely the best. Janeway's next. Picard is an also ran. IMHO. Not that I'm obsessing...

423 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:46:34pm

re: #407 MandyManners

*whack*

You're gonna get hairy palms doing that ;-P

424 NYCHardhat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:46:59pm

Give me Bush for the next 8 years.

425 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:12pm

Corrected.

426 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:12pm

re: #415 Salamantis

Somehow, I don't think this guy is planning on a long stay at LGF.

427 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:19pm

re: #411 albusteve

that's HER!

I'd recognize that nose bridge anywhere!

428 shrike  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:20pm

Apologies if anyone else has posted this quote from Hamlet already...

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. (1.5.166)

I don't know, just seems applicable

429 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:31pm

re: #424 NYCHardhat

Give me Bush for the next 8 years.

Not gonna' touch that.

430 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:33pm

re: #331 DeafDog

If I remember Philosophy 101, Descartes basically took that belief and proved God existed with his "Cogito Ero Sum" argument. Most consider Descartes a genius.

You could be wrong, but you are in good company.

You are probably thinking of Pascal's wager.

431 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:47:42pm

re: #414 LGoPs

Anybody joining this pun war needs to pony up

Horsing around with the puns again.

432 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:06pm

re: #414 LGoPs

Anybody joining this pun war needs to pony up

As a pal o' mine, O'Reilly says: you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

433 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:14pm

re: #424 NYCHardhat

Give me Bush for the next 8 years.

There's a few brothels out there that... never mind.

434 NYCHardhat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:16pm

re: #429 MandyManners

Not gonna' touch that.

You like the pun? ;)

435 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:16pm

LGoPs,

Anybody joining this pun war needs to pony up

I find pun war threads to be a night-mare.

436 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:17pm

re: #384 Dustyvet

I rear-ended a car this morning. I knew it was going to be a really bad day!

The driver got out of the other car and I looked down and realized he was a dwarf!

He looked up at me and said “I’M NOT HAPPY!”

So I said, “Well then, which one are you?”

And that’s how the fight started.

ROTFLMAO...dammit, you owe me a new keyboard - sprayed my coffee on it. BTW, did you toss him?

437 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:23pm

re: #423 eschew_obfuscation

You're gonna get hairy palms doing that ;-P

Mandy? Really?

/muuumph, gaphumph, ghaw

438 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:35pm

re: #424 NYCHardhat

Give me Bush for the next 8 years.

Just try using that as a pick-up line. I dare you.

439 NYCHardhat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:54pm

re: #438 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Just try using that as a pick-up line. I dare you.

I so want to.

440 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:48:57pm

re: #432 Thanos

As a pal o' mine, O'Reilly says: you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

Not a fan of "My Fair Lady"?

441 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:49:03pm

re: #431 Dustyvet

Horsing around with the puns again.

I'm outa here. I will not be saddled with another pun war.

442 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:49:17pm

I can't believe that I live in a country that would think, for a moment, that what Bush said is "controversial". The GOP continues to do itself a disservice by aligning with these throwbacks.

443 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:49:26pm

re: #438 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Just try using that as a pick-up line. I dare you.

What? My GOP friends and I constantly drink to Bush and Dick.

444 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:49:45pm

re: #388 Salamantis

Philosophy 101 was over 20 years ago, so I will concede the point. But my vague memory was that Descartes' proof of his own existence extended, nest, to proof of the the existence of God using the materials which he said proved that God necessarily exists.

I remember it being a painful circular and it's still painful when I tried to read.

Descartes was a genius. I am not.

445 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:49:55pm
446 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:03pm

re: #443 Sharmuta

What? My GOP friends and I constantly drink to Bush and Dick.

LOL! Cheers!

447 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:13pm

*self-whacking*

448 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:18pm

re: #446 scottishbuzzsaw

LOL! Cheers!

*Clink*

449 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:29pm

re: #441 Creeping Eruption

I'm outa here. I will not be saddled with another pun war.

I agree, quit horsing around!

450 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:32pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Belgian police arrest 'al Qaeda legend'
With bonus picture!

El-Aroud described the "love" she and her late husband felt for Osama bin Laden in a 2006 interview with CNN.

Collaborator News Network does it again. They've probably got a collection going for her legal defense fund.

451 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:38pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Belgian police arrest 'al Qaeda legend'
With bonus picture!

Hmmm, she looks familiar, like I know her from somewhere.

452 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:43pm

re: #447 So?

*self-whacking*

There are other, less wholesome sites for that.

453 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:50:46pm

re: #447 So?

*self-whacking*

You'll go blind doing that.

454 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:51:18pm

re: #443 Sharmuta

What? My GOP friends and I constantly drink to Bush and Dick.

LOLOL. There is a reason your karma is off the charts.

455 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:51:18pm

re: #442 Lizard by the Bay

I can't believe that I live in a country that would think, for a moment, that what Bush said is "controversial". The GOP continues to do itself a disservice by aligning with these throwbacks.

agreed and it's depressing...

456 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:51:49pm

re: #451 opnion

Hmmm, she looks familiar, like I know her from somewhere.

American Ninja?

American Ninja II?

457 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:51:54pm

re: #453 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You'll go blind doing that.

I'm The Uni-whacker.

458 NYCHardhat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:52:02pm

re: #454 unreconstructed rebel

LOLOL. There is a reason your karma is off the charts.

Hmmm. She's intelligent?

459 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:52:07pm

re: #385 DeafDog

Yes the famous line is the middle of the argument on his proof of God, not the end of the argument.

Descartes starts with seven doubt makers to show that nothing can be believed. But one thing can be believed - Cogito Ergo Sum.

Furthermore, Descartes continues, within him is a belief of a greater being. He can't exist without that belief and so the greater being must therefore exist since he exists.

Actually, he begins with the assumption that a demon is lying to him through all of his senses, and asks what can he know for certain even if that were true.

It is generally agreed among philosophers that while the cogito ergo sum part was sterling, the subsequent theological proof was deeply flawed, made unwarranted assumptions and logical leaps, was influenced by the prevailing zeitgeist, and overall was not Descartes' finest philosophical hour.

460 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:52:21pm

re: #435 Dirk Diggler

LGoPs,

I find pun war threads to be a night-mare.

Horse Shoe: What you say to a horse when you want it to go away.

461 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:52:56pm

re: #456 Occasional Reader

American Ninja?

American Ninja II?

The 1st one , thats it!

462 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:53:13pm

re: #397 Occasional Reader

Of course, there are a couple of things obviously wrong with that line of "reasoning" (if it can even be called that).


Historically, Descartes' proof of God was writing largely in support of the Church, which was under attack from Martin Luther and the reformist at the times.

I hardly got it the first time through and I'm not going to try to go through all of the head scrathing again...sorry I brought it up

463 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:53:25pm

re: #458 NYCHardhat

Hmmm. She's intelligent?

further she's right almost all the time...stroke!

464 ErnieG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:53:55pm

re: #331 DeafDog

If I remember Philosophy 101, Descartes basically took that belief and proved God existed with his "Cogito Ero Sum" argument. Most consider Descartes a genius.

You could be wrong, but you are in good company.

That reminds me of the time René Descartes walked into a bar.

The bartender said, "Would you like a beer?" Descartes replied, "I think not," and disappeared.

465 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:54:12pm

re: #430 doppelganglander

You are probably thinking of Pascal's wager.

No, DeafDog was correct. Descartes' proof.

(Pascal's Wager is even sillier)

466 Buck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:54:28pm

re: #22 Peacekeeper

Why is it such fun to mock Christian literalists?

If by literalists you mean everything in the bible should be taken literally, then yes, it is fun to mock.

Especially if you have read the first draft of the bible (Dead Sea Scrolls).

However, the internet has this going around for anyone who thinks the bible is the literal word of God and that God's word (as outlined in the bible is eternal and unchanging.

Here we go:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?



b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?



c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.



d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?



e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?



f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?



g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?



h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?



i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?



j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

467 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:55:10pm

re: #306 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My next sock puppet is either Wong Long Dong or Enormous Genitals, whichever I can sneak in.

You could try "Won Hung Lo".

468 bulwrk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:55:10pm

re: #449 jcm

I agree, quit horsing around!


Are you trying too stirrup trouble?

469 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:55:27pm

re: #441 Creeping Eruption

I'm outa here. I will not be saddled with another pun war.

"Doctor, doctor! Birds keep building nests in my horses' manes! What should I do?" "Sprinkle yeast on them and call me in the morning." "But why?" "Yeast is yeast and nest is nest and never the mane shall tweet!"

470 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:55:45pm

CNN finds it more offensive to have her expose her face than the killing she supports.

471 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:56:28pm

re: #45 nyc redneck

i think she was trying to make a fool of him.
she failed.
he sounded sincere and honest and not at all backward or unsophisticated.
he embraces god and accepts that evolution based on science can exist too.
that's fine w/ me.

Good observations.

And, I always respect George W. Bush, a patriot. I get angry at some of this mistakes, but I think they're mistakes not conspiracies to kill America. That's the other Party's gig.

472 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:56:28pm

re: #466 Buck

If by literalists you mean everything in the bible should be taken literally, then yes, it is fun to mock.

Especially if you have read the first draft of the bible (Dead Sea Scrolls).

However, the internet has this going around for anyone who thinks the bible is the literal word of God and that God's word (as outlined in the bible is eternal and unchanging.

Here we go:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?



b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?



c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.



d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?



e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?



f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?



g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?



h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?



i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?



j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

This is for you: The Year of Living Biblically

473 ErnieG  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:56:38pm

re: #465 Occasional Reader

No, DeafDog was correct. Descartes' proof.

(Pascal's Wager is even sillier)

Occam's Wager is sillier still, like Pascal's Razor.

474 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:56:50pm

re: #468 bulwrk

I agree, quit horsing around!


Are you trying too stirrup trouble?

A story about a pony on the pampas could be called "Little Horse on the Prairie".

475 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:56:51pm

re: #168 Peacekeeper

I waas thinking particularly of Thou shalt not kill versus Thou shalt do no murder. A world of difference.

I use this site to compare Bible translations.
[Link: www.biblegateway.com...]
Only four of the 20 translations in English (and not even the "New KJV") use the term "kill" all the rest use "murder."
So, most English-speaking Christians know that nowadays.

476 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:06pm

Creeping Eruption,

*self-whacking*

There are other, less wholesome sites for that.

There's nothing unwholesome about the female form, pal. You take a look at a site like Chunkyasses.com and you tell me what is unwholesome about that.

477 A.W.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:08pm

To both responses... lol.

I think the trek response was funnier. but that is just me.

478 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:09pm

re: #466 Buck

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

So gay sex with lobsters is completely out of the question.

479 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:19pm

re: #470 Ben Hur

CNN finds it more offensive to have her expose her face than the killing she supports.

CNN always misses the point...despicable bunch of whores

480 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:26pm

re: #466 Buck

I KEEELLL YOU!

/;-)

ROFL!

481 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:32pm

re: #470 Ben Hur

CNN finds it more offensive to have her expose her face than the killing she supports.

Who?

482 jasongreenberg  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:57:57pm

Presidents aren't meant to be Pastors or Theologians. It's too bad politics don't allow politicians to be honest with who they are and what they believe until they're done running for elections.

On another note, I don't understand why so many people think you either have to interpret the Bible 100% literally or 100% symbolically. I think it should be taken both ways, depending on the context of a given passage. God is so complex, we can't possibly understand exactly why and how he does everything. So instead, he puts it in lamens terms with tangible, earthly symbols that will make sense to us, even after thousands of years.

483 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:58:01pm

re: #476 Dirk Diggler

Creeping Eruption,

There's nothing unwholesome about the female form, pal. You take a look at a site like Chunkyasses.com and you tell me what is unwholesome about that.

Staff wondering why I am laughing so hard . . .

484 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:58:05pm

re: #468 bulwrk

I agree, quit horsing around!


Are you trying too stirrup trouble?

No, just trying to reign things in before it bolts out of control.

485 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:58:12pm

re: #478 Occasional Reader

So gay sex with lobsters is completely out of the question.

Well no, only certain types of sex with lobsters. The prohibition (which pertains to Jews only) is to eating...

486 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:58:22pm

re: #445 taxfreekiller

a lot of them did not vote until 1979


then who wrote all the state constitutions, ran for all the state and federal senates and houses, were members of the political parties,
who were the precinct chairs, who were the people who were election judges , just a few Christians possible, just a few evangelicals or was it
millions?

I'm distinguishing between Christians who belong to mainstream denominations and evangelical or fundamentalist Christians. The latter generally belong to independent churches or small denominations and trace their roots to evangelists like Aimee Semple McPherson and Billy Sunday. Even in the late 19th century, many Christians rejected biblical literalism and followed higher criticism. Sorry to use Wikipedia as a source, but they've got a good short overview of Protestant Fundamentalism. I spent a number of years in evangelical churches, so I know a bit about the subject.

487 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:58:30pm
488 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:58:35pm

re: #410 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Lets see, Mr. al-Ackbar, you participated in riots last year in Paris and Rotterdam, very good. You were seen on CNN burning an American flag, good. Uh-oh. Your references are all Shi'ites. That's not so good.

How many times have you blown yourself up, Mr. al-Ackbar?

489 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:59:10pm

re: #473 ErnieG

Occam's Wager is sillier still, like Pascal's Razor.

Then there's Occam's Toothbrush. And yes, I *am* angry I didn't think of that name first.

490 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:59:26pm

re: #478 Occasional Reader

So gay sex with lobsters is completely out of the question.

Are we saying there is such a thing as straight sex with a lobster?

/Everyday, I learn something new.

491 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 1:59:33pm

re: #478 Occasional Reader

So gay sex with lobsters is completely out of the question.

But at least you can drink a damn beer, unlike some religions I could think of. Islam, I'm looking in your direction.

492 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:02pm

re: #459 Salamantis

IIRC, some have taken his sceptical approach further and dispensed with the self as another assumption that can be doubted, to arrive at "I think, therefore there is thought".

493 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:03pm

re: #332 albusteve

who are you to judge?

Relax.

494 doppelganglander  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:04pm

re: #465 Occasional Reader

No, DeafDog was correct. Descartes' proof.

(Pascal's Wager is even sillier)

Ah! Thanks for the correction.

495 so.cal.swede  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:13pm

re: #7 The_Vig

People who take the Bible literally are funny,

and scary.

I had a co worker who is a literalist. it was weird. It boiled down to it was whatever HIS personal interpretation was. But as long as he felt it was literal... Even in a situation where the interpretation was clearly ambiguous, he would settle for one of them, and say that this is the correct and clearly literal interpretation. if you think otherwise, you're dumb and bigoted.

His argument for the 'literal interpretation' is something about how we need diversity in the church communities so that the good interpretations can survive... i asked him how he knew his wasn't the wrong one.. well. trust me. it was NOT the wrong one... (according to him).

funny thing.. he developed software the same way...

496 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:30pm

re: #206 The_Vig

That is not true. Constantine commissioned the Bible.

Constantine didn't control all of the ancient, early Christian congregations who needed it in one language or another.
He also couldn't control whether Jews, displaced by slavery or travels translated their Scripture into new languages where ever they went.
Jesus even quoted from a translation: the Septuagent, which was the authorized Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures.

497 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:31pm
498 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:35pm

re: #485 WrathofG-d

Well no, only certain types of sex with lobsters

What a relief.

Wait... I mean, that's completely irrelevant to my life, how dare you!

499 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:00:55pm

re: #430 doppelganglander

You are probably thinking of Pascal's wager.

No, no, Descartes actually did use reason to prove that God existed. And not any God. He proved his god existed.
Descartes Proof of God

500 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:01:00pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

Belgian police arrest 'al Qaeda legend'
With bonus picture!

When I was in the middle east we used to call them Ninja Bob's (Blacked out babes). Also had some Zorro Bob's...

501 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:01:33pm

re: #481 MandyManners

Who?

405

502 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:01:47pm

re: #478 Occasional Reader

So gay sex with lobsters is completely out of the question.

Without the critter's consent it would be terribly shellfish...

503 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:01:49pm

re: #498 Occasional Reader

What a relief.

Wait... I mean, that's completely irrelevant to my life, how dare you!

I thought you said you had crabs before OR, not lobsters.

504 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:01:56pm

re: #498 Occasional Reader

What a relief.

Wait... I mean, that's completely irrelevant to my life, how dare you!

Actually, on second thought, all bestiality is prohibited, so...gay or not...its still wrong.

505 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:02:11pm

re: #401 buzzsawmonkey

Angels can't dirty dance; they are part of the Heavenly host, and cleanliness is next to Godliness.

Fallen angels and honkytonk angels can. :D

506 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:02:15pm

re: #421 MrSilverDragon

Personally, I think we need to rein it in.

hold your horses...not just yet

507 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:02:15pm

re: #338 CalBear84

My favorite is the guy in the Prius with the 0bama sticker going 25mph over the posted speed limit...
Climate change my ass.

My favorite was the woman in the Ford Expedition with a Gore 2000 sticker.

/during 2000 election

508 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:02:23pm

re: #493 Son of the Black Dog

Relax.

mean spirits ruin my vibe...

509 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:02:57pm

Sign of the times,Lee Majors aka Steve Austin, the 6 Million dollar Man, AkA the Bionic Man, AkA former husband of Farrah Fawcet, is now shilling the Lee Majors bionic hearing aid! It's just wrong

510 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:03:18pm

re: #414 LGoPs

Anybody joining this pun war needs to pony up

the puns drive me buggy.

511 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:03:25pm

re: #506 LGoPs

hold your horses...not just yet

Howdah hell do you think you are to suggest that?

512 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:03:30pm

re: #338 CalBear84

My favorite is the guy in the Prius with the 0bama sticker going 25mph over the posted speed limit...
Climate change my ass.

IIRC, that was Al's kid.

513 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:03:45pm

re: #503 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I thought you said you had crabs before OR, not lobsters.

You know what they say: "Once you've gone Maine, you'll never complain."

514 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:03:49pm
515 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:04:14pm

re: #421 MrSilverDragon

Personally, I think we need to rein it in.

What? Call a HALTer to it all?

516 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:04:40pm

re: #193 The_Vig

A quick question for the Biblical literalists out there. Which version of the Bible is the correct one. Looking at history the first bibles where conscripted by Constantine in 325 AD. This means that there where 300 years without an actual bible. It came down to one man to put together the list of books to be included in the bible.

There were lists before which all agreed on a core canon: the four Gospels, most of Paul's stuff except the Pastorals, 1 Peter, and 1 John. Hebrews too, but there were questions about whether Paul wrote it or not.

Then there were the Pastorals, Jude, and James. On the ragged edge were Revelations, 2-3 John; 1 Clement, the Didache.

Some known to be written will after the time of Christ.

They all were written well after the time of Christ. Some were already-identified forgeries, most infamously 2 Peter.

How can you take something written by man as the literal word of God. Do the Jews look at their holy books this way? What about the books that did not make it into the Bible, are they any less holy?

From my observation, Jews look at the Torah (first 5 books) as the "literal word of God"... in practice. Look at the comments about the 613 fringes here. Not so much the Prophets; and the Writings are treated like Anglicans treat the Apocrypha. However Jews don't seem to look at the Torah as a textbook of natural history the way too many Christians do.

Even Christian fundamentalists aren't literalists, despite their claims. They emphasise one passage over the next and convince themselves that doesn't count.

Re, the canon: There's a principle of internal consistency at work. Much of that is doctrinal. The Pope is far more fond of the Epistle of James than are Lutherans, for instance.

But there wasn't much dispute about the core canon of Christianity as of the late 2nd century AD. The 4th century Church just codified what was already informally agreed upon for over a century. 2 Peter was a mistake and, if you're Catholic (or Greek Orth, I suppose), abandoning the pro-Roman 1 Clement was a tactical error; but they didn't do too bad a job.

Christians nowadays are at least aware of the so-called "Apostolic Fathers" and I've often seen them cited as proof-texts for early Christianity. The Didache especially.

517 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:04:58pm

re: #507 Son of the Black Dog

My favorite was the woman in the Ford Expedition with a Gore 2000 sticker.

/during 2000 election

Prius, with the mandatory COEXIST bumper sticker... right below it?
STUPID PEOPLE SUCK

518 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:05:01pm

re: #423 eschew_obfuscation

You're gonna get hairy palms doing that ;-P

nah, someone told me the other day that isn't true. You do go blind though, he said.

519 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:05:36pm

re: #490 unreconstructed rebel

Are we saying there is such a thing as straight sex with a lobster?

/Everyday, I learn something new.

There was one episode of Futurama about that topic...

520 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:05:42pm

Quittin' time

521 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:05:51pm

re: #509 opnion

What?

522 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:06:13pm

re: #449 jcm

I agree, quit horsing around!

Why? Will you atTACK us? ;-)>

523 bulwrk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:06:36pm

re: #484 jcm

No, just trying to reign things in before it bolts out of control.

Ok,thats the mane reason I askrd

524 UFO TOFU  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:06:59pm

re: #518 Outrider

Yeah, but you can always stop once you need glasses.

525 bulwrk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:07:02pm

re: #523 bulwrk

wth

526 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:07:13pm

re: #519 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

There was one episode of Futurama about that topic...

Why must I be a crustecean in love?

Ok, now I'm gone.

527 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:07:28pm

re: #459 Salamantis

It is generally agreed among philosophers that while the cogito ergo sum part was sterling, the subsequent theological proof was deeply flawed, made unwarranted assumptions and logical leaps, was influenced by the prevailing zeitgeist, and overall was not Descartes' finest philosophical hour.

His revenege is the torture of Philosophy 101 students for centuries.

528 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:07:39pm

re: #487 buzzsawmonkey

Whenever that POS crops up--as I have seen it do periodically over the last 8 or 10 years--I have to chuckle when I imagine the gleeful sn***ing of the ignoramuses who find it amusing.

[Link: www.neopagan.net...]

See #16

531 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:09:29pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Fark Headline: The pope, wearing priceless jewels and carrying a staff made of solid gold, condemns global financial system as "self-centered, short-sighted, and lacking concern for the poor"
Also with bonus pic!

if the CC opened it's coffers...bingo!...end of world hungar
/

532 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:09:36pm

So much for Barry's "Open Government":

Blagojevich questions censored on Transition site

President-elect Barack Obama's Transition today launched "Open for Questions," a Digg-style feature allowing citizens to submit questions, and to vote on one another's questions, bringing favored inquiries to the top of the list.

It was suggested when it launched that the tool would bring uncomfortable questions to the fore, but the results so far are the opposite: Obama's supporters appear to be using -- and abusing -- a tool allowing them to "flag" questions as "inappropriate" to remove all questions mentioning Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich from the main pages of Obama's website.

The Blagojevich questions -- many of them polite and reasonable -- can be found only by searching words in them, like "Blagojevich," which produces 35 questions missing from the main page of the site.

"Given the current corruption charges involving Blagojevich, will 'serious' campaign finance reform that takes money completely out of politics through publicly funded elections be a priority in the first term?" asked Metteyya of Santa Cruz, California.

"This submission was removed because people believe it is inappropriate," reads the text underneath it.

533 sneezey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:09:37pm

re: #356 MandyManners

with dopey.

534 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:09:53pm

re: #375 doppelganglander

For years, evangelical preachers taught that believers shouldn't be involved in the world. Lots of them didn't even vote until the Moral Majority got started in 1979. While I believe everyone should vote, and it's fine for your religious beliefs to inform your vote, I really dislike religious figures getting involved in politics.

Let us not forget who introduced the phrase "born-again Christian" into American politics.

Get ready.

James Earl Carter!

535 BBev  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:10:07pm

re: #363 Opinionated

Does it smell up there with your head up your ass.

536 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:12:02pm

re: #487 buzzsawmonkey

Umm...surely the joke is on the literalists, not those who find literalism amusing.

537 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:13:00pm

OT (is there a T?):

When I was making my Obama Dream - or Nightmare? video, I found myself being reminded of a former President when choosing pictures. This was based on the way O looked in some pictures: haughty, distainful, angry. That President, oddly enough, was Nixon.

Now PE Obama is starting to remind me of N in other ways. Little ways, mind you. In the interest of full disclosure, O also had several pictures that reminded me of Ernie - he has a very Ernie-like profile - especially when he scowls.

I have a feeling that someone in the Obama camp may have ratted Gov. B out. I still cannot f**king believe Gov. B was stupid enough - talk about hubris - to try to squeeze a President Elect.

538 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:13:03pm

re: #502 scottishbuzzsaw

Without the critter's consent it would be terribly shellfish...

not to mention immoray...er..al

539 CalBear84  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:14:41pm

re: #527 DeafDog

Philosophy 101 Final Exam:

Professor walks in to classroom, puts a can of soda on his desk.
"Prove to me the existence of this can of Coke!" says he.
One student finishes writing in his blue book right away, turns it in to the professor, and leaves the classroom.

Professor opens the blue book and reads:
"What Coke can?"

540 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:14:57pm

re: #531 albusteve

They need to change their message delivery system. The Pope condemns materialism and greed every couple of months. Nobody's going to take him seriously when the speech is given in his private castle while holding a solid gold jewel encrusted staff.
Maybe just wearing some simple robes in an office somewhere. The Dali Lama uses the same gimmick and it works pretty well.

541 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:15:25pm

re: #528 Salamantis

Grimness

I think that article might be onto something there...;)

542 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:15:28pm
543 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:17:26pm

re: #540 Killgore Trout

They need to change their message delivery system. The Pope condemns materialism and greed every couple of months. Nobody's going to take him seriously when the speech is given in his private castle while holding a solid gold jewel encrusted staff.
Maybe just wearing some simple robes in an office somewhere. The Dali Lama uses the same gimmick and it works pretty well.

agreed...I find the Church's approach somewhat offensive...not the message but the style...but you just said that...heh

544 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:17:30pm

re: #517 jcm

Prius, with the mandatory COEXIST bumper sticker... right below it?
STUPID PEOPLE SUCK

How about
LIFE IS TOUGH...BEING STUPID MAKES IT TOUGHER

545 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:17:36pm

re: #501 Ben Hur

405

I hope they never let her go.

546 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:17:37pm

re: #531 albusteve

Any clue what the net worth is of the Catholic Church? I'd love find a link to the net worth of various religions. It would be interesting.

547 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:19:23pm

re: #542 Ben Hur

Blackbird. African-American Browser.

Good initiative.


From that site:

The Blackbird Browser gives you access to Internet sites just like Internet Explorer, plus more community-specific features when you want them. For example, Black Search moves important information from African American sites higher in your search results. Try the Blackbird Browser and see how we are customizing the web experience just for you.

Affirmative Action browser.

548 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:19:25pm

I just finished reading a book where the bad guys were Muslim terrorists - al-Qaeda (yes, the books specified al-Qaeda).

It was a vampire dark romance - the good guys were vampire black ops agents. They also had sex a lot, while they weren't saving New York from another terrorist attack.

549 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:19:40pm
Biblical literalists

. . . or young earth creationists, are much more precise terms for labeling the science deniers, as opposed to just throwing out the term "creationists" willy nilly. Keeping this distinction in mind would be very much appreciated.

/the vast majority of Christians who believe in creation also believe in evolution and don't see any conflict whatsoever between the two concepts

550 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:20:51pm

re: #492 Jimmah

IIRC, some have taken his sceptical approach further and dispensed with the self as another assumption that can be doubted, to arrive at "I think, therefore there is thought".

I consider this Zennish conception to be fundamentally flawed. The Zen Doctrine of No-Mind asserts that the belief that one possesses a self is a delusion. But this contention itself gets snagged on the horns of an either/or dilemma, between the tips if which there is no wiggle room whatsoever.

1) If one does indeed possess a self, then the belief that one posseses a self cannot be deluded, for it is a belief in what is indeed the case. Hence, there is no delusion.

2) If one does not possess a self, then there is no self there to be deluded; the absent nonexistent cannot be present to be deceived. Hence in this case, there is no delusion, either.

Likewise, the idea of a thought in the absence of a thinker is logically self-contradictory. Notice that creationists illegitimately try to linguistically piggyback this argument when they endeavor to relabel the Universe as 'Creation" so they can argue the necessity of a "Creator." It is a way of surreptitiously assuming as a premise what you purport to prove as a conclusion.

551 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:21:14pm
552 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:21:27pm

re: #546 Killgore Trout

Any clue what the net worth is of the Catholic Church? I'd love find a link to the net worth of various religions. It would be interesting.

Let's see what Yahoo Answers has to say!

I think it would be difficult to have a viable comparison - many religions and even religious groups are not as centralized as the Catholic Church.

553 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:21:29pm

re: #540 Killgore Trout

All that stuff is very much the catholic's 'thing' though. The Pope is like religious royalty; I can't see many catholics in favour of dumping the bling any time soon.

554 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:22:10pm

re: #548 Cattt

Name?

555 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:22:32pm

re: #546 Killgore Trout

Any clue what the net worth is of the Catholic Church? I'd love find a link to the net worth of various religions. It would be interesting.

I'm hardly that savvy but indeed interesting...gold and jewels and artwork...plus the unimaginable bones and pieces parts and holy icons...real estate...investments...whoa dood!...coupla hundred billion at the least...what a mystery eh?

556 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:22:34pm

re: #547 wrenchwench

Affirmative Action browser.

I'm writing a new browser called "White Knight".

...gonna give preference to sites of "White" interest.
///

557 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:22:44pm

re: #6 Oh no...Sand People!

I believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

Gee, great quote. I love it. Let me add:

I believe in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.

Frankly, I agree with most of what Bush had to say. I don't see a problem.

558 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:24:09pm
559 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:25:20pm

OT.

Looks like New Orleans is going to be shovelling global warming off of the streets again

560 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:25:24pm

re: #539 CalBear84

Gambing student - either an F or an A+

561 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:26:17pm

re: #552 Cattt


In that year, the bank had deposits of $40 billion, and annual profits of $4 million. Reese notes, after an interview with the head of the bank, that "it is unclear how much working capital the bank has beyond its deposits", and that some estimated it as high as $1 billion, before 1984 payments
to creditors of a collapsing Italian Bank (a scandal known as "Banco Amrosiano" Scandal). The budget of the Vatican City itself is $130 million annually.


Big thanks. Mind boggling numbers.

562 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:26:18pm

re: #556 eschew_obfuscation

I'm writing a new browser called "White Knight".

...gonna give preference to sites of "White" interest.
///

Maybe we need a new browser called Truth. Focuses in sites that are not full of BS.

563 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:26:36pm

re: #550 Salamantis


2) If one does not possess a self, then there is no self there to be deluded; the absent nonexistent cannot be present to be deceived. Hence in this case, there is no delusion, either.

I agree. My way of thinking on this was that for a delusion to be the case implies a deludee. It's an idea I came across while reading up on some debates in the neuroscience field a few years ago. Never found it very appealing. I'd much rather have an explanation of the self than a denial of it's existence.

564 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:26:40pm
565 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:26:48pm

re: #533 sneezey

with dopey.

Has Sleepy got help for his narcolepsy yet?

566 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:27:18pm

re: #562 father_of_10

Maybe we need a new browser called Truth. Focuses in sites that are not full of BS.

Hear, hear!

567 Ceemack  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:27:20pm

re: #70 Peacekeeper

Yes but what would your wife say?


"Put down the binoculars"?

568 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:27:27pm

re: #552 Cattt

I've heard the Mormons are doing pretty well financially. I suspect the CoE is on the verge of bankruptcy.

569 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:28:43pm

re: #564 WrathofG-d


great tune

570 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:28:45pm

re: #568 Killgore Trout

I've heard the Mormons are doing pretty well financially. I suspect the CoE is on the verge of bankruptcy.

finacial or moral bankrupcy?

571 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:28:58pm

re: #410 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Lets see, Mr. al-Ackbar, you participated in riots last year in Paris and Rotterdam, very good. You were seen on CNN burning an American flag, good. Uh-oh. Your references are all Shi'ites. That's not so good.

'Sir, "al-Akbar" is bad Arabic. The equivalent to the superlative in that language doesn't take the definite article. That's why you read "Allahu al-Rahman al-Raheem" yet "Allahu Akbar".

'Résumé DENIED!'

572 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:28:59pm

re: #554 Creeping Eruption

Name?

In the Blood, by Savannah Russe. It's book 4 in a series.

It's pretty good - I'd give it a four stars. The vampires turn into giant, scary, but not unattractive bats to fight. And did I mention they have a LOT of sex?

Speaking of the Catholic Church - the herione's daddy was Pope Urban VI, who really upset the Church applecart in a big way. Her mom (also a vampire) does not trust the Church, to put it mildly.

573 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:29:20pm

OT: Browsing local paper and this is the first line of an article:

"Al Jarreau is probably fortunate not to have been bludgeoned with a fruitcake by now."

574 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:00pm

re: #558 taxfreekiller

ps

Its not Nightline,

Its,, Nightlie and or Nightlylie.

For a second there I thought you said nightie night. Too early! :D

575 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:01pm

re: #570 albusteve

You know that question is only going to cause trouble for me.
;)

576 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:04pm

re: #559 eschew_obfuscation

OT.

Looks like New Orleans is going to be shovelling global warming off of the streets again

Damn that Bush...why can't he just leave New Orleans alone.
/

577 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:20pm

re: #569 DeafDog

great tune

Check this then...LWTUA

578 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:35pm

re: #572 Cattt

Thanks. I'm wondering though, is there any sex in those books?

579 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:46pm

re: #575 Killgore Trout

You know that question is only going to cause trouble for me.
;)

it's not a setup...play stupoid

580 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:53pm

re: #394 scottishbuzzsaw

He did. I smell a Troll

581 Skaught  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:30:55pm

FYI -- Biblical literalists do not equal "6,000 year old earth" creationists. I believe the Bible is God's word and therefore true, and I believe that the universe was created by God. How he did it, we're only now just beginning to understand (yes, including evolution). I call evolution "intelligent design", actually.

582 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:32:11pm

re: #559 eschew_obfuscation

OT.

Looks like New Orleans is going to be shovelling global warming off of the streets again

Algore giving a speech at Tulane?

583 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:32:43pm

re: #527 DeafDog

His revenege is the torture of Philosophy 101 students for centuries.


I thought that Neitche was a nose bleed.
I remember in class discussing why did a door knok feel like raw meat to him.
Actually, I had the answer , ""Because he was efing nuts"
Didn't actually say that, cause I wanted a grade.

584 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:32:59pm

re: #551 buzzsawmonkey

People who think they can read the Bible as casually as if it were the latest Sweet Valley High novel and understand it are fools. Never do they demonstrate this more clearly than when they are patting themselves on the back for their sophistication in combining a Sweet Valley High-level understanding of the text with a sub-Sweet Valley High-level sense of humor.

I agree with Occasional Reader on this one:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

These were simple, uneducated people, who were meant to take these scriptural pronouncements literally. And for their time such pronouncements did not seem overly strange, but for us, these days, many of them appear exceedingly absurd.

585 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:33:15pm

re: #578 Creeping Eruption

Thanks. I'm wondering though, is there any sex in those books?

Oh, yessir. All kinds of. :D

586 ludwigvanquixote  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:33:56pm

re: #132 Sharmuta

And for the record- I think you're anything but simple minded.

Thank you kindly... could I get you to tell that to a certain old professor of mine? :)

587 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:34:11pm

re: #571 Zimriel

'Sir, "al-Akbar" is bad Arabic. The equivalent to the superlative in that language doesn't take the definite article. That's why you read "Allahu al-Rahman al-Raheem" yet "Allahu Akbar".

'Résumé DENIED!'

"But I'm an Admiral and I can tell when its a trap!"

588 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:34:14pm

re: #584 Salamantis

Yes we are the hight of all creation at this very moment! Go us!

589 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:34:46pm

re: #580 Bubblehead II

He did. I smell a Troll

That's a hunka' bad karma. Don't stand next to him in a thunderstorm.

590 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:34:56pm

re: #559 eschew_obfuscation

OT.

Looks like New Orleans is going to be shovelling global warming off of the streets again

the photos are beautiful.
i love that snow on palm trees.

591 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:35:31pm

re: #561 Killgore Trout

Big thanks. Mind boggling numbers.

Not really. A 'market value' of $40b would put the church somewhere between Texas Instruments and Volvo.

592 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:35:35pm
593 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:35:38pm

re: #581 Skaught

literalism

1. adherence to the exact letter or the literal sense, as in translation or interpretation

A Biblical literalist be one who takes the Genesis creation story to be literally true.

594 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:35:39pm

I'm not surprised by President Bush's position, which is mainstream. I'm very surprised that anyone is "fuming mad". The only way anyone could get mad was if the President had attacked religion. He didn't.

A tiny fraction of Christians believe that the Bible is literally true. (I don't know whether Ultra-Orthodox Jews have this debate about Tanak.) A large proportion of them are Amish or Mennonite, and live on farms where they use horses to plow instead of tractors, on grounds that tractors and other modern machinery aren't mentioned in the Bible. The Amish and Mennonites also are pacifists.

The Amish and Mennonites are true to their faith, which holds that the Bible is literally true in all respects. How many other Biblical "literalists" are?

595 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:37:12pm

re: #591 experiencedtraveller

Not really. A 'market value' of $40b would put the church somewhere between Texas Instruments and Volvo.

what did I miss?...the Church worth 40b?...that's absurd

596 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:37:28pm

re: #590 nyc redneck

the photos are beautiful.
i love that snow on palm trees.

It was snowing in Houston yesterday!

597 johnnyreb  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:37:37pm

re: #92 Dirk Diggler

Peacekeeper,

People believing in kooky things is one thing. People trying to force their kooky beliefs down others throats as "established scientific fact" is something else.

Kind of like global warming eh?

598 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:38:11pm

re: #593 Sharmuta

PIMF- should be "is one". Too much time at lolcat, maybe.

599 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:39:08pm

re: #594 quickjustice

The only way anyone could get mad was if the President had attacked religion. He didn't.

Therein lies the rub. In the minds of the creationists, he most certainly did attack religion.

600 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:39:56pm

re: #593 Sharmuta

literalism

A Biblical literalist be one who takes the Genesis creation story to be literally true.

and that's fine as far as it goes...to mercilessly bash them senseless because of it seems unjust...imo

601 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:40:34pm

Germs didn't exist before they were discovered!

602 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:41:29pm

re: #588 WrathofG-d

Yes we are the hight of all creation at this very moment! Go us!

Until the next moment. Because we are all transitional organisms (provided we reprodice). Evolution never ends.

On the other hand, there really isn't such a thing as 'higher' or 'lower' in evolution, because that kind of language imples an abstract platonic ideal towards which evolution purposefully strives - and of course, evolution lacks all awareness, desire or volition. It is merely the natural, blind and gradual approximation of each species to its particular ecological niche by means of rendom genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

603 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:41:52pm

re: #599 Sharmuta

Therein lies the rub. In the minds of the creationists, he most certainly did attack religion.

it's folly and these people will only hurt their own image in the long run...I'm already impatient with this nonsense and I'm pretty easy goin

604 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:43:00pm

re: #284 Occasional Reader

Genesis is a collection of different stories about beginnings, probably gleaned from a long, preexisting, oral Hebrew storytelling tradition. It has several distinct, and contradictory, creation stories within it. That doesn't mean those stories are lies, any more than any myth is a lie. Literalism doesn't work well when you're in the realm of myth, however.

605 Hucbald  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:43:03pm

Let me explain to them, after over thirty years of studying every English translation of the Bible, how Mary wasn't a virgin, Joseph was the father of Jesus, the Christmas story was made up, Jesus never taught at the Temple as a child, and Mark is the only unadulterated Gospel.

There is no more ignorant statement in the universe than, "Every word in the Bible is the inspired word of God."

606 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:43:16pm

re: #583 opnion

Funny.

I remember vague things like that, too. Also, too many kids in that class liked to wear black, too.

607 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:43:31pm

re: #597 johnnyreb

Kind of like global warming eh?

Climate change is a fact. It happens. The dispute is in the level to which man is contributing to it. We don't correct the science surrounding AGW by upending science by allowing ID in to the classroom.

608 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:44:28pm

re: #591 experiencedtraveller

Not really. A 'market value' of $40b would put the church somewhere between Texas Instruments and Volvo.


Cattt's link was listing the Church's assets not market value. I wonder what the Catholic P/E ratio would be.

609 goddessoftheclassroom  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:45:27pm

re: #605 Hucbald

Let me explain to them, after over thirty years of studying every English translation of the Bible, how Mary wasn't a virgin, Joseph was the father of Jesus, the Christmas story was made up, Jesus never taught at the Temple as a child, and Mark is the only unadulterated Gospel.

There is no more ignorant statement in the universe than, "Every word in the Bible is the inspired word of God."

I don't care how much you've studied. I don't agree with you. However, that's okay. Just don't insult me and other Christians who believe that the Bible is in fact the word of God.

I am not ignorant or uneducated, by the way.

610 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:45:55pm

re: #592 buzzsawmonkey

You are quite correct, because the "literalists" in this instance are the boneheads who wrote the "amusing" article--not the people they are trying to mock.

In that sense, the Bonehead Broadside is a perfect example of the stupidity of atheist literalism, to which I was referring the other day.

People who took those ancient injunctions literally at that time were not odd in doing so, and thus are not mockable. However, people who would perversely take such ancient injunctions literally today are indeed both exceedingly bizarre and eminently mockable.

The boneheads are the people who wanna invoke fucking PC prohibitions against ridiculing the transparently ludicrous.

611 Indefatigable  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:46:23pm

The Bible, first off, is not a science book. Never has and never will be. I do believe it expounds scientific truths and I do believe science and the Bible mesh. That is where too many try and divide people into two camps: literalist or not. I believe in a third way.

I think "literal" is too loaded a word. I believe the Creation story is true. What I think people misunderstand is the method. People have to remember that Jewish literature was heavily into numbers and imagery (7 is perfect, 12 is perfect, 6 is falling short, etc.), kind of like how the number 13 is considered unlucky these days.

If you look at the Book of Genesis and the Book of Revelation, you'll see the same style of imagery and figurative language. And that's where I believe people overlook things. In essence, I believe the Bible is true, but some of it is told in a way that is figurative.

Think about it: you're Moses (tradition says he wrote the first five books) and say you're divinely inspired by G-d to write down the origin of the universe. Is G-d going to tell you about atoms, molecules, DNA, amino acids, RNA, genetics? No, because you wouldn't understand a lick of it and neither would anybody reading it at the time. You tell it in a way people will get the gist of what happened. We do it all the time in modern times: "sunrise" and "sunset". Scientifically not what happens, but true in a sense.

Take the Book of Job, for example. When G-d goes on a rant about how the universe came into being to Job, He uses terms like "plumb line" to measure the universe. Does that mean He literally used an instrument to create the universe? I doubt it. But explain to Job about the speed of light, quarks, quasars and such and he would have been dumbfounded. Most of us still are dumbfounded by such subjects.

In conclusion, I do believe in the Bible as G-d's word. And I think that dividing people into literalist and non-literalist is vastly oversimplifying the matter.

That's all I have to say. Feel free to ding or not.

612 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:46:28pm

re: #575 Killgore Trout

You know that question is only going to cause trouble for me.
;)

Related -

Dioceses and parishes have seceded from the national Episcopal Church all over the country - many have united (under African archbishops) under the Convocation of Anglicans in North America (CANA).

The African Episcopal church is doing missionary work in the US.

The "offical" American Episcopal church wants its churches back - the property. They aren't doing spit about the parishioners.

613 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:46:32pm

re: #592 buzzsawmonkey

You are quite correct, because the "literalists" in this instance are the boneheads who wrote the "amusing" article--not the people they are trying to mock.

In that sense, the Bonehead Broadside is a perfect example of the stupidity of atheist literalism, to which I was referring the other day.

I don't see why they are boneheads for pointing out the ridiculousness of taking a literalist stance on the Bible in this day and age. Self-proclaimed biblical literalists do exist. You must surely find their views to be ridiculous as well? If so then why are you so against this article which merely points out the idiocy of their stance? It's not mocking an allegorical interpretation of these passages - it is clearly mocking the literalist one.

614 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:46:41pm

re: #607 Sharmuta

Climate change is a fact. It happens. The dispute is in the level to which man is contributing to it. We don't correct the science surrounding AGW by upending science by allowing ID in to the classroom.

Very true. Climate change has been occurring for billions of years without any human input what-so-ever. What I dispute is how much, if any we are modifying it. What I don't care for are the panic mongers like Al Gore, and the manipulators like James Hansen. Those two are on the level of the ID promoters, IMHO.

615 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:46:46pm

re: #595 albusteve

See #552, They are excluding real estate and problably some other stuff but it seems a reasonable estimate.

616 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:47:24pm
617 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:47:45pm

Climate Change (aka weather)

618 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:48:20pm

"Biblical literalists are fuming mad."

Isn't 'fuming mad' their default mode?

619 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:48:58pm

re: #600 albusteve

and that's fine as far as it goes...to mercilessly bash them senseless because of it seems unjust...imo

I don't know how presenting the scientific facts is "bashing".

Also- it's unjust to tell those accepting the veracity of evolution they're going to Hell, or they should kill themselves, or all the other horrible things we've seen some "Christians" say on these threads or have emailed to Charles.

620 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:49:03pm

re: #612 Cattt

The "offical" American Episcopal church wants its churches back - the property. They aren't doing spit about the parishioners.


I was just noticing that various parishes (and their reale state) were not included in your Catholic link either. Giving autonomy to individual diocese has it's drawbacks.

621 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:49:14pm

re: #605 Hucbald

Let me explain to them, after over thirty years of studying every English translation of the Bible, how Mary wasn't a virgin, Joseph was the father of Jesus, the Christmas story was made up, Jesus never taught at the Temple as a child, and Mark is the only unadulterated Gospel.

There is no more ignorant statement in the universe than, "Every word in the Bible is the inspired word of God."

That's because you are studying a spiritual book with your mind alone.

Which is the opposite of the same mistake the ID crowd makes, take a spiritual book and attempting to make science out of it.

622 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:49:20pm

re: #366 DeafDog

True. And Descartes, and LGF fan, uses the pseudonym "Charles"...or is that God himself with that handle?

You want to put that into - um - understandable language?

623 lincolntf  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:49:26pm

re: #616 buzzsawmonkey

Well said.

624 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:49:29pm

re: #589 MandyManners

I think it will only get worse. Unless Stinky *WACKS* it first.

625 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:49:32pm

re: #601 WrathofG-d

Germs didn't exist before they were discovered!

We find bacteria in the partially digested food preserved in frozen mammoth bellies pulled out of glacier crevasses. We find their fossilized traces in strata that far predates the appearance of our species on this planet.

626 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:50:00pm

re: #620 Killgore Trout

I was just noticing that various parishes (and their reale state) were not included in your Catholic link either. Giving autonomy to individual diocese has it's drawbacks.

Heh heh heh. True.

627 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:50:19pm

re: #615 Killgore Trout

See #552, They are excluding real estate and problably some other stuff but it seems a reasonable estimate.

what do I know...dont they claim to own John the Baptists bones or whatever?...I'm not being flip...I'm way behind the curve here

628 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:50:29pm

re: #611 Indefatigable

The Bible, first off, is not a science book. Never has and never will be. I do believe it expounds scientific truths and I do believe science and the Bible mesh. That is where too many try and divide people into two camps: literalist or not. I believe in a third way.

I think "literal" is too loaded a word. I believe the Creation story is true. What I think people misunderstand is the method. People have to remember that Jewish literature was heavily into numbers and imagery (7 is perfect, 12 is perfect, 6 is falling short, etc.), kind of like how the number 13 is considered unlucky these days.

If you look at the Book of Genesis and the Book of Revelation, you'll see the same style of imagery and figurative language. And that's where I believe people overlook things. In essence, I believe the Bible is true, but some of it is told in a way that is figurative.

Think about it: you're Moses (tradition says he wrote the first five books) and say you're divinely inspired by G-d to write down the origin of the universe. Is G-d going to tell you about atoms, molecules, DNA, amino acids, RNA, genetics? No, because you wouldn't understand a lick of it and neither would anybody reading it at the time. You tell it in a way people will get the gist of what happened. We do it all the time in modern times: "sunrise" and "sunset". Scientifically not what happens, but true in a sense.

Take the Book of Job, for example. When G-d goes on a rant about how the universe came into being to Job, He uses terms like "plumb line" to measure the universe. Does that mean He literally used an instrument to create the universe? I doubt it. But explain to Job about the speed of light, quarks, quasars and such and he would have been dumbfounded. Most of us still are dumbfounded by such subjects.

In conclusion, I do believe in the Bible as G-d's word. And I think that dividing people into literalist and non-literalist is vastly oversimplifying the matter.

That's all I have to say. Feel free to ding or not.

Up.

629 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:51:28pm

re: #618 Daisy

"Biblical literalists are fuming mad."

Isn't 'fuming mad' their default mode?

Yes.

630 johnnyreb  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:51:42pm

re: #607 Sharmuta

Climate change is a fact. It happens. The dispute is in the level to which man is contributing to it. We don't correct the science surrounding AGW by upending science by allowing ID in to the classroom.


Climate change is indeed a fact, it has been going on for millions of years. However, pounding 24/7 in the MSM that man is causing uncontrollable global warming is not a fact. It is a shakey theory at best. The MSM and certain institutes continually state GW as a "fact" and the "scientific consensus" is that man is causing GW. The GW theory is literally falling apart more and more every year when temperatures around the world are in fact going down, and the MSM and "crisis crying" scientists are ignoring these facts. That was my original point.

But, the original post was:

"People believing in kooky things is one thing. People trying to force their kooky beliefs down others throats as "established scientific fact" is something else."

That was my point.

631 dragondirt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:51:51pm

Arab Islamist Clerics to Palestinians: Slaughter the Jews Like You Did in 1929; Blow Yourselves Up in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv...

[Link: www.dragondirt.org...]

632 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:52:15pm

*sniff*

633 DeafDog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:52:17pm

re: #622 Cattt

I already ran away. It was joke that only I got.

634 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:52:40pm

re: #624 Bubblehead II

I think it will only get worse. Unless Stinky *WACKS* it first.

Might be fun to poke a bit.

635 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:53:02pm

re: #625 Salamantis

wow thanks for sharing. But they didn't exist until we could scientifically verify them. Every intellegent thinking person knows this!

636 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:53:16pm

re: #611 Indefatigable

You stated much better what I tried to in #275 above...

637 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:55:29pm

re: #630 johnnyreb

Oh- and I got your point. But deflecting attention to AGW from ID doesn't work with me. We are not discussing AGW, we are discussing evolution.

638 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:56:03pm

re: #625 Salamantis

We find bacteria in the partially digested food preserved in frozen mammoth bellies pulled out of glacier crevasses. We find their fossilized traces in strata that far predates the appearance of our species on this planet.

The history of antibiotics has many fascinating examples of how such were found before they could be created in the lab.

And they are still discovering natural antibiotics: Here is one from this past summer:

Philippines: Antibiotic-producing mushroom discovered

A group of government scientists recently discovered an antibiotic-producing microorganism from a type of mushroom which has been found to be effective in treating diseases of livestock, particularly swine, the Department of Science and Technology (DOST) reported yesterday.
639 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:56:14pm

re: #608 Killgore Trout

Cattt's link also notes:

The budget of the Vatican City itself is $130 million annually.

Another modest number. You can run the Vatican City for a year or pay ARod to play ball for 5 years with that scratch.

While the Vatican's art collection is very difficult to assess as it cannot be sold, and it has significant land holdings, it appears the church's cash flow is quite modest compared to nation states and even major corporations.

640 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:56:35pm

re: #619 Sharmuta

I don't know how presenting the scientific facts is "bashing".

Also- it's unjust to tell those accepting the veracity of evolution they're going to Hell, or they should kill themselves, or all the other horrible things we've seen some "Christians" say on these threads or have emailed to Charles.

they dont need to be humiliated for their beliefs such as they are and I didnt mean to imply ideological discourse as bashing...when they evengelicalize those beliefs...pry into politics and belittle us non believers it's a different matter...it's certainly a hair that needs to be split especially in a sometimes hostile forum...I'm trying to play it down the middle that's all...and Charles plays as well it perfect imo

641 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:57:31pm

Franken vows to fight for seat

Democrat Al Franken’s campaign has submitted briefs and voter affidavits to Minnesota’s Board of Canvassers ahead of its Friday meeting, promising to fight in any number of venues to force the counting of absentee ballots it alleges were improperly disqualified.

“We’ve known all along, and it’s become increasingly clear to all, that there are those individuals who cast lawful ballots and yet failed to have those ballots counted,” Franken campaign attorney Marc Elias said on a conference call. “That type of arbitrary treatment of ballots is simply not permitted under the law.”

While refusing to say what would happen if the board sided against Franken, Elias insisted that the campaign will fight in any number of venues to have those ballots counted in the contested race against Sen. Norm Coleman (R).

“One way or another, there is a remedy of those people,” he said. “It is clearly not acceptable that these votes not count.”

The Coleman campaign issued a sharp response.

“The Franken campaign has made it abundantly clear that they could care less about the outcome of the recount and are instead focusing their energies on fighting the results of the election through the court system or by taking the issue to the floor of the United States Senate,” Coleman campaign spokesman Luke Friedrich said. “We are standing behind the law on how recounts should be conducted and against efforts to change the rules when they don't suit your needs.”

/if you can't win legally and cheating hasn't worked so far, try setting a disgusting, new all time low in political campaigning

642 johnnyreb  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:57:31pm

re: #637 Sharmuta

Oh- and I got your point. But deflecting attention to AGW from ID doesn't work with me. We are not discussing AGW, we are discussing evolution.

I understand that. I was just making a point of the original post. That argument can be used for more that ID/evolution is all I was trying to say. At times I don't express myself well here. Too much technical writing to a specific group I suspect.

643 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:58:38pm

I'm off.

644 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:59:41pm

re: #643 MandyManners

I'm off.

We already knew that!

;-P

645 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:59:46pm

re: #641 Killian Bundy

Franken vows to fight for seat

/if you can't win legally and cheating hasn't worked so far, try setting a disgusting, new all time low in political campaigning

Maybe we should've gotten Jimmy Carter to be an Election Observer. That would'a fixed it!

646 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 2:59:58pm

re: #604 quickjustice

Genesis is a collection of different stories about beginnings, probably gleaned from a long, preexisting, oral Hebrew storytelling tradition. It has several distinct, and contradictory, creation stories within it. That doesn't mean those stories are lies, any more than any myth is a lie. Literalism doesn't work well when you're in the realm of myth, however.

Yes.

Part of the problem is that people aren't really taught about the origins of Biblical text, why certain texts were chose and others were not. I remember a born-again Christian friend completely freaking out when he was told that the Bible was not originally written in English.

So, there's some ignorance out there. That said, I've found most literalists (the ones I know anyway) to be harmless as they are not activists like what the creationists appear to be. They just believe what they believe and go about their business.

647 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:00:10pm

re: #643 MandyManners

I'm off.

Bubble?

648 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:01:10pm

re: #641 Killian Bundy

Franken vows to fight for seat

/if you can't win legally and cheating hasn't worked so far, try setting a disgusting, new all time low in political campaigning

he is so frantic and out of control, he may not stop until he is committed to a mental facility or thrown in jail.
he is a disgrace. and an embarrassment.

649 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:02:40pm

re: #648 nyc redneck

he is so frantic and out of control, he may not stop until he is committed to a mental facility or thrown in jail.
he is a disgrace. and an embarrassment.

I expect him to show up on the day new Senators are sworn, ranting on the Capitol steps.

650 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:02:48pm

re: #634 MandyManners

I think it dropped its load and ran away before we could do anything too it.

651 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:03:04pm

To say that the Christian Bible is the Word of G-d is not to say that it is literally true in every detail. In the book of Job, for example, there are long passages in which Job's comforters make lengthy theological arguments about the nature of G-d which clearly are false. The essence of those false arguments is: "Job, you must have angered G-d to have been stricken with so much suffering."

Yet it's very clear that Job was a righteous man before G-d, and that he did not deserve to suffer based upon any conduct of his. The point of the debate is that the righteous often suffer, and that such suffering has nothing to do with divine punishment.

Anyone care to argue that people starving, or stricken with disease, in Africa are being punished by G-d?

The underlying point: The Bible is filled with false arguments and lies. They're part of the storytelling.

652 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:03:05pm

re: #644 jcm

We already knew that!

;-P

And here I was, biting my tongue and trying not to say "No More Than Usual"...

653 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:03:43pm

re: #616 buzzsawmonkey

You are wrong.

You are falling into the trap of the Educated Sophisticate who cannot imagine that people several thousand years ago could possibly match his own awesome brilliance.

Educated Sophisticates will marvel at the subtleties of Confucius, or of Gilgamesh, or of the Egyptian Book of the Dead; they will wax rhapsodic over the Greek philosophers, over the writings of the Roman sages, of the lyrical and beautiful symbolism of the Greek myths, the Norse legends, or the Vedas. But the Bible? Crude shepherd's tales told by lackwits in smelly sheepskins.

Sorry, no. The Bible is a many-layered batch of documents, whether you believe anything in it or not. You will notice, by the way, that I have said nothing here whatsoever about "belief." Whether you believe the Bible is the Word of G-d, or whether you consider it merely an assemblage of ancient texts, some redacted from fragments, only a complete and utter ass wholly in love with his own ego would contend that a Sweet Valley High-level reading of that text is equivalent to anything but an effort to play a symphonic arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth using armpit farts.

So let me get this straight: You are saying that the ancients of the age did NOT literally believe that burning bull on their altars as sacrifices created odors that were pleasing to God? You are saying that they did NOT sometimes sell their daughters into slavery, or buy slaves from others for themselves? You are saying that they DIDN'T accept prohibitions against sex during menstruation? You are saying that they WEREN'T enjoined to kill those who worked on the Sabbath? You are saying that they DIDN'T accept the prohibition against eating shellfish? Or the prohibition against planting two crops in the same field?

Wherever did you get your subtle nuanced sophisticated Kerryesque vision of these people?

654 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:04:43pm

re: #648 nyc redneck

he is so frantic and out of control, he may not stop until he is committed to a mental facility or thrown in jail.
he is a disgrace. and an embarrassment.

Makes him eminently qualified to represent the democrats...
/

655 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:05:10pm

re: #649 jcm

I expect him to show up on the day new Senators are sworn, ranting on the Capitol steps.

Someone needs to take Al aside and tell him he's not good enough, not smart enough, and gosh darn it, people dont like him.

656 SagamoreGal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:05:56pm

I really could give a flip what Pres Bush (or any politician, for that matter) thinks of Creationism vs Darwinism or if he believes in the literal translation of the Bible. Did anyone really have to ask that question to get the answer? He was raised as an Episcopalian;and the longer he was in office the more his Episcopalian side versus the Methodist side reared its little head, especially in his views towards Israel's sovereignity.

If we're ever going to give a litmus test to our 21st century presidents, the one question and the ONLY question that should be asked of all candidates is "do you believe that Islam is a religion of peace?""

GWB flunked that test with fucking flying colors.

657 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:06:03pm

re: #654 LGoPs

Makes him eminently qualified to represent the democrats...
/

Maybe blogo will sell him the Ill. seat.
/

658 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:06:11pm

re: #647 father_of_10

What?

659 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:06:38pm

re: #655 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Someone needs to take Al aside and tell him he's not good enough, not smart enough, and gosh darn it, people dont like him.

well said...LOL

660 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:06:49pm

re: #648 nyc redneck

he is so frantic and out of control, he may not stop until he is committed to a mental facility or thrown in jail.
he is a disgrace. and an embarrassment.

That video is just way over the line.

/HEY PATHETIC, WHINY DUMBASS BONKEYS, TRY SUBMITTING A LEGAL ABSENTEE BALLOT NEXT TIME!

661 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:07:00pm

re: #651 quickjustice

The underlying point: The Bible is filled with false arguments and lies. They're part of the storytelling.

Now you've jumped the shark.

662 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:07:21pm

hiya cuz, good to see ya re: #652 scottishbuzzsaw

663 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:07:36pm

re: #655 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Someone needs to take Al aside and tell him he's not good enough, not smart enough, and gosh darn it, people dont like him.

In other words destroy every shred of self esteem he has...

I like it.

664 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:07:43pm

re: #649 jcm

I expect him to show up on the day new Senators are sworn, ranting on the Capitol steps.

i expect him to show up at the swearing in ceremony, push coleman to the floor and scream "i wanna be senator, i wanna be senator", until they mace him, slap on the cuffs and arrest the sob.

665 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:08:01pm

Bank of America to cut 35,000 jobs over 3 years:
[Link: www.bostonherald.com...]

666 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:08:02pm

re: #642 johnnyreb

I understand that. I was just making a point of the original post. That argument can be used for more that ID/evolution is all I was trying to say. At times I don't express myself well here. Too much technical writing to a specific group I suspect.

Naw - you made your point. I think you just ruffled a couple of feathers by bringing in up in an ID thread.

The thing is, though - and this is the crux of why you got an argument on your post - ID is complete bullshit. Climate change is something all sides are looking at from scientific - not mystical - viewpoints. Sure, the various sides annoy others with the arguments - but they ARE arguments, not mystical beliefs.

667 Olderthandirt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:08:05pm

Well, AlGore thinks that science must be determined by a consensus agreement and the "Biblical literalists" are saying others must agree with them or else! So, I'd lump those literalists in with AlGore's nutcases, making for a strange bunch of mixed nuts! Yuke!

However it goes, keep your cotton picking hands off my beliefs and my faith is my business.

668 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:08:07pm

re: #635 WrathofG-d

wow thanks for sharing. But they didn't exist until we could scientifically verify them. Every intellegent thinking person knows this!

They existed in and of themselves; they just didn't exist for us. Trees that fall in uninhabited forests really do generate sound waves, even if no one is there to hear them.

669 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:08:17pm

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Why is it we, right here on LGF, mock Mormons. I just posted this on the last thread.

As a Mormon lizard I will say this - I greatly appreciate your concern. Your level of respect for us and our beliefs, as shown in your comment, I feel, is shared among most lizards. The sense that I get here (if I may be so bold) is that there are many who do not personally agree with my faith but find such differences irrelevant in the context of lgf and even in a personal context since I consider many here to be friends and have no doubt that if we were to meet in person it would be nothing but amicable and enjoyable. Also, buzzsawmonkey's humor is very similar to mine and I took his comment as a joke rather than mockery. Having said all that, there are occasional Mormon related comments that I think have a negative/mocking tone but I find them uncommon and I usually ignore them. In summary, I'm impressed at the level of respect we Mormons get here at lgf.

670 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:08:37pm

re: #663 jcm

In other words destroy every shred of self esteem he has...

I like it.

man that's brutal...I like it too...

671 Rancher  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:09:07pm
‘This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.’


OMG, his political career is over!

672 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:09:10pm

re: #662 apachegunner

hiya cuz, good to see ya

Hey there, Patchy! How have you been? I've missed the Bailey's gatherings...

673 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:09:16pm

re: #664 nyc redneck

i expect him to show up at the swearing in ceremony, push coleman to the floor and scream "i wanna be senator, i wanna be senator", until they mace him, slap on the cuffs and arrest the sob.

don't tase me, bro

674 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:10:16pm

re: #640 albusteve

they dont need to be humiliated for their beliefs such as they are and I didnt mean to imply ideological discourse as bashing...when they evengelicalize those beliefs...pry into politics and belittle us non believers it's a different matter...it's certainly a hair that needs to be split especially in a sometimes hostile forum...I'm trying to play it down the middle that's all...and Charles plays as well it perfect imo

Well- I would have to say that when people think Adam and Eve lived among the dinosaurs, they open themselves up to be ridiculed. Personally- I do try to be understanding and respectful of the beliefs of others, but when that belief is so disconnected from reality, it's difficult to remain sympathetic.

675 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:10:30pm

re: #661 rightymouse

Oh? So the comforters of Job were making true arguments? Explain.

676 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:10:40pm

re: #660 Killian Bundy

That video is just way over the line.

/HEY PATHETIC, WHINY DUMBASS BONKEYS, TRY SUBMITTING A LEGAL ABSENTEE BALLOT NEXT TIME!

I'm so sick of this shit. When they win, it's the will of the people. When they lose, it must be cheating or disenfranchisement or some other crap and they'll keep trying to change the rules until they do win. Heads I win, tails you lose...buncha little fascists.
Harumph.

677 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:10:48pm

re: #655 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Someone needs to take Al aside and tell him he's not good enough, not smart enough, and gosh darn it, people dont like him.

A1 Steak Sauce is not smart enough? /brain cramp

678 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:11:52pm

re: #663 jcm

In other words destroy every shred of self esteem he has...

I like it.

Can't be done...he's a legend in his own mind...

679 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:12:23pm

re: #672 scottishbuzzsaw

Hey there, Patchy! How have you been? I've missed the Bailey's gatherings...

having a nice glass of merlot, want some?

680 Russkilitlover  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:12:34pm

re: #669 bosforus

As opposed to the Amish who take quite a beating here.

681 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:12:39pm

re: #664 nyc redneck

i expect him to show up at the swearing in ceremony, push coleman to the floor and scream "i wanna be senator, i wanna be senator", until they mace him, slap on the cuffs and arrest the sob.

I'd rather they Taze him...pay money to see that

682 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:12:39pm
673 Outrider 12/11/08 3:09:16 pm reply quote 0

re: #664 nyc redneck

i expect him to show up at the swearing in ceremony, push coleman to the floor and scream "i wanna be senator, i wanna be senator", until they mace him, slap on the cuffs and arrest the sob.

don't tase me, bro

OMG. I just got a great idea for a video - thank youse.

683 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:12:44pm

re: #616 buzzsawmonkey

!

684 Russkilitlover  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:11pm

re: #681 LGoPs

I'd rather they Taze him...pay money to see that

Pay-to-play! I'd pay a lot to tase him myself.

685 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:12pm

re: #672 scottishbuzzsaw
I updinged ya cuz, just cause I like your karma :>)

686 Kragar  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:12pm

re: #663 jcm

In other words destroy every shred of self esteem he has...

I like it.

I think it should be delivered a lot like this, hopefully in front of a large audience, with live video feeds

687 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:15pm

re: #658 Bubblehead II

What?

It was a joke on Mandy. She said she was off. I said Bubble?, like off plumb or off bubble.

688 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:21pm

re: #679 apachegunner

having a nice glass of merlot, want some?

Yes please...lovely.

Are you and yours all ready for Christmas? Only two weeks away...

689 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:38pm

Honestly- I think part of the problem is some people's inability to tolerate any joke or criticism of their faith. Reminds me of islamists.

690 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:14:56pm

re: #681 LGoPs

I'd rather they Taze him...pay money to see that

i really wouldn't be surprised if we do see something like that.
franken is a kook.
and obviously shameless.

691 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:15:12pm

shit, I'd love to tase him myself. How good it would feel! re: #681 LGoPs

692 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:15:30pm

re: #651 quickjustice

Which is partly why so many people with only a tad of reading in it can so quickly and easily fall for the idea that it contradicts itself.
I really like the book of Job partly because it allows those false comforters and Job's wife who is equally a false comforter ("Curse God and die!) to have the floor.

693 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:15:33pm

re: #682 Cattt

OMG. I just got a great idea for a video - thank youse.

LOL,
great. make sure you post it here.

694 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:15:47pm

re: #689 Sharmuta

Honestly- I think part of the problem is some people's inability to tolerate any joke or criticism of their faith. Reminds me of islamists.

Sounds about right.

695 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:15:57pm

re: #688 scottishbuzzsaw

Yes please...lovely.

Are you and yours all ready for Christmas? Only two weeks away...


all shopping done, I am off for two weeks and all the decorations are hung.

696 Charlie R  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:16:19pm

It is much to the advantage of creationists to have the emminent, eloquent, exalted George W Bush as a spokesman for evolution. I have come to feel much more comfortable about those things that Mr Bush disagrees with than those things he feels his worldview is made

697 Rancher  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:16:28pm

re: #666 Cattt

Climate change is something all sides are looking at from scientific - not mystical - viewpoints. Sure, the various sides annoy others with the arguments - but they ARE arguments, not mystical beliefs.


You sure about that?

698 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:16:38pm

re: #695 apachegunner

all shopping done, I am off for two weeks and all the decorations are hung.

You really know how to hurt a guy.

699 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:17:18pm

re: #687 father_of_10

Ok. Just was a little vague to me.

/ Need more Crown

700 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:17:18pm

re: #695 apachegunner

all shopping done, I am off for two weeks and all the decorations are hung.

Same here...otherwise, how's life treating you?

701 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:17:38pm

re: #674 Sharmuta

Well- I would have to say that when people think Adam and Eve lived among the dinosaurs, they open themselves up to be ridiculed. Personally- I do try to be understanding and respectful of the beliefs of others, but when that belief is so disconnected from reality, it's difficult to remain sympathetic.

I just have a certain level of 'dont give a damn'...and further sympathy may be virtuous so keep trying...I live in Indian country where my neighbors worship turtles and mountains...I'm really disconnected and out of my element here but it's simply live and let live with me...I'm very discouraged to see this rise of 'religionism' in American politics...the Creationism/ID subject is very disturbing on several levels...but someone has to fight the good fight so I leave that to you...

702 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:18:04pm

re: #675 quickjustice

Oh? So the comforters of Job were making true arguments? Explain.

My Dad is a PhD Biblical Scholar and translator. To him, the story of Job was most like a 'philosophical' play of sorts. One must take the social context/awareness of the time to heart as well. Very different world then.

703 Dustyvet  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:18:08pm

re: #565 MandyManners

Has Sleepy got help for his narcolepsy yet?

Doc has him on medication for it...

704 debutaunt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:18:13pm

re: #696 Charlie R

It is much to the advantage of creationists to have the emminent, eloquent, exalted George W Bush as a spokesman for evolution. I have come to feel much more comfortable about those things that Mr Bush disagrees with than those things he feels his worldview is made

How nice.

705 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:18:32pm

awww, you'll be ok partner. Got more than a week in front of you, right? re: #698 rawmuse

706 johnnyreb  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:19:40pm

re: #660 Killian Bundy

That video is just way over the line.

/HEY PATHETIC, WHINY DUMBASS BONKEYS, TRY SUBMITTING A LEGAL ABSENTEE BALLOT NEXT TIME!

One simple thing would correct this. Voter ID! No ID means no vote. And no it does not mean you need a drivers license. Here in CT you can get a FREE resident ID card, and you register to vote at the same time if over 18. Does not cost you one cent, but you have to prove that you are here legally and a resident of the State/Town with a valid address. Heck in my Town the Town Clerk will even send someone to your house to help if you can't come to Town Hall. My neighbors are in their 90s and they have their ID's and they vote absentee. Guess what? The town has a record of their State ID card and their absentee votes count every single time.

707 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:20:26pm

re: #689 Sharmuta

Honestly- I think part of the problem is some people's inability to tolerate any joke or criticism of their faith. Reminds me of islamists.

Exhibit A

708 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:20:44pm

\o/ for Bush! =)

709 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:21:01pm

re: #668 Salamantis

They existed in and of themselves; they just didn't exist for us. Trees that fall in uninhabited forests really do generate sound waves, even if no one is there to hear them.

You probably don't realize what you have just done, but thanks for arguing towards biblical literalism and most specifically G-d!

Have a great day! Lech Em Elohim!

710 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:21:05pm

re: #700 scottishbuzzsaw

Same here...otherwise, how's life treating you?


things are great, as I hope they are for you. I've been hanging here in Richmond, VA, all week and working over at the naval air station at Norfolk.

711 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:22:12pm
712 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:22:36pm
713 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:23:15pm

re: #709 WrathofG-d

You probably don't realize what you have just done, but thanks for arguing towards biblical literalism and most specifically G-d!

Have a great day! Lech Em Elohim!

I have done nothing of the sort. The earth was spherical and circled the sun, even when it was heretical apostate blasphemy to maintain otherwise. And terrestrial life has been evolving since long before Darwin deduced the mechanism by which such evolution proceeds.

714 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:23:32pm

re: #710 apachegunner

things are great, as I hope they are for you. I've been hanging here in Richmond, VA, all week and working over at the naval air station at Norfolk.

Things are wonderful here, thanks.

715 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:23:57pm

re: #616 buzzsawmonkey
what you said.

716 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:24:19pm

re: #671 Rancher

OMG, his political career is over!

You know, I think this guy is just trying to make himself important, what with being on CNN and all. Gotta stay relevant, be the house evangelical or something. He's overstating imho

717 JumpLandPackRepeat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:24:31pm

re: #56 subsailor68

OT

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

It's Jim DeMint, and - in a nutshell - he believes there will be riots if the bailout IS put in place.

Maybe it's just me, but the kind of people who oppose the bailouts seem to be more like the folks here.

And from what I've learned of the LGF folks, riots aren't part of the deal.

A trip to the ballot box is more like it.

I agree...it seems to me the people that riot are the ones who feel entitled to get something for nothing, want handouts, and want to give the government more control...so basically the Democrats?

718 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:24:49pm

re: #696 Charlie R

*sniff* *sniff* What is that smell?

719 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:24:53pm

re: #713 Salamantis

I have done nothing of the sort. The earth was spherical and circled the sun, even when it was heretical apostate blasphemy to maintain otherwise. And terrestrial life has been evolving since long before Darwin deduced the mechanism by which such evolution proceeds.

Good mixing of statements there. The Torah never said that the sun circled around the Earth.

720 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:24:54pm

re: #707 Jimmah

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

721 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:25:29pm

re: #606 DeafDog

Funny.

I remember vague things like that, too. Also, too many kids in that class liked to wear black, too.


Philosophy majors were kinda funky.

722 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:07pm

re: #646 rightymouse

I remember a born-again Christian friend completely freaking out when he was told that the Bible was not originally written in English.

How can anyone be this ignorant, seriously? Modern English has only been around since the 15th or 16th century. Old English, which is a completely different language closer to German than modern English, probably didn't exist until the 7th century either.

Did he think the Bible was written by the pilgrims or something?

723 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:08pm

re: #720 Sharmuta

Ai can haz keel u!
/talilolbancatz

724 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:10pm

re: #719 WrathofG-d

Good mixing of statements there. The Torah never said that the sun circled around the Earth.

In that case, how could it be divinely stopped in its tracks in order to provide extended light for a Biblical battle?

725 Clemente  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:16pm

re: #696 Charlie R

Registered since: Apr 16, 2008 at 5:56 pm
No. of comments posted: 1

Seriously.

726 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:23pm

re: #706 johnnyreb

One simple thing would correct this. Voter ID! No ID means no vote. And no it does not mean you need a drivers license. Here in CT you can get a FREE resident ID card, and you register to vote at the same time if over 18. Does not cost you one cent, but you have to prove that you are here legally and a resident of the State/Town with a valid address. Heck in my Town the Town Clerk will even send someone to your house to help if you can't come to Town Hall. My neighbors are in their 90s and they have their ID's and they vote absentee. Guess what? The town has a record of their State ID card and their absentee votes count every single time.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the only people who oppose this simple concept is Democrats, claiming discrimination of course. Jeez looeez, you have to show ID when you use your credit card fer cryin out loud.
The only possible reason to oppose verification of voting is if you intend to steal votes. And they're freakin' blatant about it...
To me there are few things more serious than stealing an election. This strikes at the very heart of our democracy and the penalty ought to be harsh enough to dissaude anyone from even trying.

727 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:24pm

re: #696 Charlie R

Another creationist sleeper, registered since April.

728 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:29pm

re: #709 WrathofG-d

You probably don't realize what you have just done, but thanks for arguing towards biblical literalism and most specifically G-d!

Have a great day! Lech Em Elohim!

Because accepting the existence of an 'objective reality' is an acceptance of biblical literalism. Oh boy...

729 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:26:59pm

re: #724 Salamantis

Where in the Torah does it say that?

730 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:27:06pm

re: #689 Sharmuta

Honestly- I think part of the problem is some people's inability to tolerate any joke or criticism of their faith. Reminds me of islamists.

People rarely talk religion in the meat world - at least in my meat world. I think the Internet provides a huge opportunity for people to learn to talk about such without getting all bent out of shape and to understand that it takes all kinds of people to make a world.

A while back, I noticed that my Youtube subscriptions include two Christians (one made up of African former Muslims), an atheist, an Egyptian Muslim, a Muslim group, and a couple of black/goth metal bands. I have several Muslim subscribers, but I suspect they are watching me because of my first video (Kill Them All - I was really angry when I made that). I also have some European subscribers, waiting for me to make another Samael video, I suspect. (I've even had a couple of suggestions from them of songs they'd like to see in a video.)

731 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:27:40pm

re: #728 Jimmah

It was an argument towards...not proof of the conclusion.

732 Victory Gin For All  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:27:54pm

I mentioned this redneck preacher we have on the radio here in my town. He and I got into it regarding Sunday liquor sales this morning on the local radio show.

Here is part of their mission statement. This is the reason I will never set foot into another Baptist church (or Calvary Chapel for that matter) for as long as I shall live.

10. Creation/Evolution - We believe in a literal 7 day creation account and a relatively young earth and human history. (Around 10,000 years as opposed to evolution's 4.5 billion year proposal) We believe that human beings are created in the image of God as unique, special creations representing God's crowning glory of all creation. As such, each human life has dignity, purpose, value and worth and is to be highly treasured. Even the unborn child. We believe that the theory of evolution is a lie and is desperately wicked at its core. We understand and know that there is not one piece of scientific evidence to support the lie of evolution. We believe that evolution is a God-less "statement of faith" and it is diametrically opposed to the Christian Gospel and Biblical faith.

733 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:28:02pm
One blogger at the conservative Washington Times, commented the next morning, ”I already have an e-mail from a former Bush administration official who writes, ‘This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.’“

Only those evangelical supporters who do not believe in evolution.

734 johnnyreb  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:28:12pm

re: #666 Cattt

Naw - you made your point. I think you just ruffled a couple of feathers by bringing in up in an ID thread.

The thing is, though - and this is the crux of why you got an argument on your post - ID is complete bullshit. Climate change is something all sides are looking at from scientific - not mystical - viewpoints. Sure, the various sides annoy others with the arguments - but they ARE arguments, not mystical beliefs.

Well thanks. But I did not bring it up, that argument was placed right smack in front of me and I just sort of tripped over it. It was not my intention to divert anything here, and I apologize for any ruffled feathers. I just wanted to point out, the argument was pretty weak and could be/has been used for a whole lot of other things that weren't necessarily correct.

735 jcm  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:28:20pm

re: #696 Charlie R

Since Mandy's left the house...

Go piss up a rope.

736 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:28:35pm

re: #697 Rancher

You sure about that?

Yep.

737 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:28:53pm

re: #727 Charles

Another creationist sleeper, registered since April.

\o/ for Charles too. =)

738 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:29:08pm

re: #720 Sharmuta

Exhibit B

the perpetually miserable...how sad...and then they pound the rest of us over the head their frown hammer til we resist...then we are bigots and racists...how fucking clever!...good grief...

739 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:29:50pm

re: #732 Victory Gin For All

We understand and know that there is not one piece of scientific evidence to support the lie of evolution. We believe that evolution is a God-less "statement of faith" and it is diametrically opposed to the Christian Gospel and Biblical faith.

Wow. That's all I can muster in response to that guy's statement. I can see why you got into an argument with him.

740 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:29:55pm

re: #727 Charles

Another [young earth] creationist sleeper, registered since April.

/better, a lot of us believe in creation and evolution

741 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:29:56pm

re: #712 Iron Fist

Well said. Commies keep morphing into different causes and this is one of the more recent. Every time they get beaten down they keep coming back...it's like playing whack a mole.

742 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:30:05pm

re: #712 Iron Fist

Not to be too blunt about it but Algore and his followers do believe it is a mystical argument. They think that everything is proof of anthropomorphic climate change. If the temperature is rising, it is due to global warming. If the temperature is dropping, it is global warming. If the hurricane season is bad, it is global warming. If the hurricane season is mild, it is more proof of global warming.

And global warming is EVIL. It must be combated by destroying the American economy, but then again, the economy of China must remain vibrant and growing no matter what. There's a reason that people think "global warming" is just a vehicle for attacking the United States. That's because it is a vehicle for attacking the United States.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Now it is probably true that the Goracle doesn't believe his own bullshit. The man could hardly have a bigger "carbon footprint" if he drilled an oil well in his back yard and then set it on fire. He doesn't believe his bullshit, but a lot of his followers do buy into it. And they want to destroy the American economy in the name of their whacked out belief system.

That effects me a hell of a lot more directly than any debate about evolution ever could.


And therein lies the rub. If jobs are sacraficed & society is econmically dismantled for the New Age Religion of Global Warming then so be it.
The Europeans seem to accept it all without question even without empirical evidence & opposing the luncy illicits hysteria here.

743 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:30:13pm

re: #731 WrathofG-d

It's not an argument towards either - it's just irrelevant. Objective reality pertains whether the bible is literally true or not. Same goes for God.

744 Rancher  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:30:20pm

re: #668 Salamantis

They existed in and of themselves; they just didn't exist for us. Trees that fall in uninhabited forests really do generate sound waves, even if no one is there to hear them.

A quantum superposition is the combination of all the possible states of a system (for example, the possible positions of a subatomic particle). The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the superposition only undergoes collapse into a definite state at the exact moment of quantum measurement.

745 JamesWI  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:30:53pm

re: #696 Charlie R

It is much to the advantage of creationists to have the emminent, eloquent, exalted George W Bush as a spokesman for evolution. I have come to feel much more comfortable about those things that Mr Bush disagrees with than those things he feels his worldview is made

So I take it you must be one of those rare, pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, etc. creationists we never hear about, huh?

746 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:31:04pm

re: #696 Charlie R

It is much to the advantage of creationists to have the emminent, eloquent, exalted George W Bush as a spokesman for evolution. I have come to feel much more comfortable about those things that Mr Bush disagrees with than those things he feels his worldview is made

One post since April 16th, then drops a load and runs. God, I love these people. So entertaining. It is amazing how the idiots choose to remain silent most of the time. No balls whatsoever. That is pure cowardice, they cannot even defend their own positions.

747 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:31:33pm

re: #734 johnnyreb

Well thanks. But I did not bring it up, that argument was placed right smack in front of me and I just sort of tripped over it. It was not my intention to divert anything here, and I apologize for any ruffled feathers. I just wanted to point out, the argument was pretty weak and could be/has been used for a whole lot of other things that weren't necessarily correct.

Suggestion - don't apologize for ruffling feathers, but be more precise when you do so. Your idea is off-center in this instance, but you don't want to accept that. That's fine, but don't expect people to let you get away with it here. Be ready either to back up your argument (and you have not - see my previous post) or to give ground, if you can't.

748 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:32:13pm

re: #746 CapeCoddah

One post since April 16th, then drops a load and runs. God, I love these people. So entertaining. It is amazing how the idiots choose to remain silent most of the time. No balls whatsoever. That is pure cowardice, they cannot even defend their own positions.

Would you expect anything less from people who stick their heads in the sand? =)

749 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:32:18pm

re: #727 Charles

Can we keep it? Please! Please! We promise to clean up after it and feed it and water it. Pleeeaaassseee!

///

750 coquimbojoe  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:32:24pm

re: #735 jcm

Since Mandy's left the house...

Go piss up a rope.

Hey there sir, so, Chuck is an unevolved troll?

751 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:32:28pm

re: #729 WrathofG-d

Where in the Torah does it say that?

Not in the Torah, but in the Old testament. Specifically, Joshua 10:12-14

12 ¶ Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel.

752 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:32:55pm
753 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:33:02pm

re: #742 opnion

And therein lies the rub. If jobs are sacraficed & society is econmically dismantled for the New Age Religion of Global Warming then so be it.
The Europeans seem to accept it all without question even without empirical evidence & opposing the luncy illicits hysteria here.

We are Americans, not Europeans, bid difference.

754 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:33:48pm

re: #732 Victory Gin For All

I mentioned this redneck preacher we have on the radio here in my town. He and I got into it regarding Sunday liquor sales this morning on the local radio show.

Here is part of their mission statement. This is the reason I will never set foot into another Baptist church (or Calvary Chapel for that matter) for as long as I shall live.

10. Creation/Evolution - We believe in a literal 7 day creation account and a relatively young earth and human history. (Around 10,000 years as opposed to evolution's 4.5 billion year proposal) We believe that human beings are created in the image of God as unique, special creations representing God's crowning glory of all creation. As such, each human life has dignity, purpose, value and worth and is to be highly treasured. Even the unborn child. We believe that the theory of evolution is a lie and is desperately wicked at its core. We understand and know that there is not one piece of scientific evidence to support the lie of evolution. We believe that evolution is a God-less "statement of faith" and it is diametrically opposed to the Christian Gospel and Biblical faith.

You can easily find similar statements on Pat Robertson's websites, Focus on the Family, etc.

This is far from an unusual policy among fundamentalists.

755 apachegunner  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:33:51pm

the heisenburg principle re: #744 Rancher

756 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:33:54pm

re: #689 Sharmuta

Honestly- I think part of the problem is some people's inability to tolerate any joke or criticism of their faith. Reminds me of islamists.

I've noted that similarity as well.

757 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:35:33pm

re: #748 Summer

Would you expect anything less from people who stick their heads in the sand? =)

Note: if you choose to stick your head in the sand, please do not forget to inhale after head is submerged.

758 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:35:45pm

re: #751 Salamantis

Not in the Torah, but in the Old testament. Specifically, Joshua 10:12-14...

I don't even know what that means.

No offense to the Christians here, but I don't buy into their so-called understanding of the "Old" Testament.

759 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:36:08pm

re: #753 VegasRick

We are Americans, not Europeans, bigd difference.

Gah!

760 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:36:30pm

re: #744 Rancher

A quantum superposition is the combination of all the possible states of a system (for example, the possible positions of a subatomic particle). The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the superposition only undergoes collapse into a definite state at the exact moment of quantum measurement.

This does not apply for macrophysical realities, comprised of many many trillians of fundamental particles; it only applies to the probability function of single microphysical particles. The statistical aggregate preponderance of them all does not yield to quantum indeterminacy.

761 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:36:34pm

re: #722 ArchangelMichael

How can anyone be this ignorant, seriously? Modern English has only been around since the 15th or 16th century. Old English, which is a completely different language closer to German than modern English, probably didn't exist until the 7th century either.

Did he think the Bible was written by the pilgrims or something?

People don't always think very deeply. When he became a born-again, he was given a Bible in English and that's all he knew. I suspect that he was not alone. Sad. But true. That said, he was a very kind person and once he was set straight on the facts of the matter, he was fine with that.

762 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:36:40pm

re: #712 Iron Fist

Not to be too blunt about it but Algore and his followers do believe it is a mystical argument. They think that everything is proof of anthropomorphic climate change. If the temperature is rising, it is due to global warming. If the temperature is dropping, it is global warming. If the hurricane season is bad, it is global warming. If the hurricane season is mild, it is more proof of global warming.

And global warming is EVIL. It must be combated by destroying the American economy, but then again, the economy of China must remain vibrant and growing no matter what. There's a reason that people think "global warming" is just a vehicle for attacking the United States. That's because it is a vehicle for attacking the United States.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Now it is probably true that the Goracle doesn't believe his own bullshit. The man could hardly have a bigger "carbon footprint" if he drilled an oil well in his back yard and then set it on fire. He doesn't believe his bullshit, but a lot of his followers do buy into it. And they want to destroy the American economy in the name of their whacked out belief system.

That effects me a hell of a lot more directly than any debate about evolution ever could.

gore is the classic snake oil salesman. he knows his potion is a poisonous remedy. look how the slob lives. he is a glutton. his incredible use of energy in his huge home. his private jet. his fleet of gas guzzlers. his massing of a 100 million dollar fortune from this bogus agenda he pushes on us.
a remedy to hurt us and our country but one he refuses to adhere to.
all he needs is a carnival barker outfit: a brocade vest, a pork pie hat and a colonel sander's tie,
when he get's his honorary doctorates.
he does not care abt. the earth.
period.

763 Catttt  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:37:13pm

re: #693 nyc redneck

LOL,
great. make sure you post it here.

I need to get off my duff and rebuild my other comp, then retrieve my software from the sources. My desktop comp crashed. I bought one of those harddrive storage things, but that was locking the barn after the horses fled.

765 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:37:58pm

re: #712 Iron Fist

...

Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Now it is probably true that the Goracle doesn't believe his own bullshit. The man could hardly have a bigger "carbon footprint" if he drilled an oil well in his back yard and then set it on fire. He doesn't believe his bullshit, but a lot of his followers do buy into it. And they want to destroy the American economy in the name of their whacked out belief system.
...

Not far behind the Gore family home, east of Nashville, there is a very large open-pit mine (I forget what they mine, maybe phosphates). The Gores receive large royalty payments from the mining company. There was an aerial photo of the house and the mine in Time magazine some years back.

So much for protecting the environment.

766 yochanan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:38:39pm

i am currently returning to my former frum self, I have always believed in G-D but my personal practice was lax to non existant. but i remembered how happy I was when i was frum and how un happy I became when i wasn't. first i returned to eating kosher i don't miss the pork and sausage pizza. then i decided to go to shul on shabbos, after the mombay attacks i decided to listen to chabad and do one more mitvah.

i frankly don't give a hoot about the whole creationist/evolution thing as it doesn't matter to me for one thing jews don't look at the torah the same way the christians look at the bible the irony is that those christians who say every word of the bible is important and from G-D but do you ever wonder why they still eat pork and lobster?

767 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:39:45pm

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

768 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:40:22pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

Who is Moe Katz?

769 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:41:20pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

post it...(like a head on a pike)

770 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:41:25pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

I hope you frame those, Charles. Nothing infuriates morons like the truth, and there is nothing like infuriating morons. You should be proud of yourself every time you get one of those.

771 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:41:47pm

re: #765 Son of the Black Dog

I lived in Nashville for several years. The Gore house is west of downtown, in the exclusive Belle Meade suburb. I don't know where the mine is.

772 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:42:07pm

re: #768 Summer

Who is Moe Katz?

Moe Katz, please.

773 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:42:17pm

re: #769 albusteve

no dont...that was stupid...

774 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:42:29pm

re: #768 Summer

Who is Moe Katz?

Kopy Katz brother.
/

775 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:42:42pm

re: #726 LGoPs

You got it right on target, LGoPs. It is just staggering how blatant the Democrats have become about facilitating election theft.

776 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:42:50pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

Sorry to hear that, and not surprised.

777 Tigger2005  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:43:07pm

OT, this Tom Cruise movie "Valkyrie" looks good. It's been a while since there's been a good WW2 movie.

778 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:43:07pm

re: #774 VegasRick

Kopy Katz brother.
/

larry and curly katz too...

779 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:43:10pm

re: #762 nyc redneck

gore is the classic snake oil salesman. he knows his potion is a poisonous remedy. look how the slob lives. he is a glutton. his incredible use of energy in his huge home. his private jet. his fleet of gas guzzlers. his massing of a 100 million dollar fortune from this bogus agenda he pushes on us.
a remedy to hurt us and our country but one he refuses to adhere to.
all he needs is a carnival barker outfit: a brocade vest, a pork pie hat and a colonel sander's tie,
when he get's his honorary doctorates.
he does not care abt. the earth.
period.

Makes me shiver how close this a**hole came to being President. Kinda funny - if the Dems had done the honorable thing about Clinton, Gore would've been Pres. Great how that unintended blowback works...

780 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:43:16pm
781 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:43:16pm

re: #772 bosforus

Moe Katz, please.

lol!

782 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:43:59pm

re: #752 buzzsawmonkey

First, prohibitions against eating shellfish, having sex during menstruation, and planting two crops in the same field are not some quaint relic of thousands of years ago. They are observed today by millions, and observed precisely because they are considered to be divine commandments.

This will, of course, excite your (increasingly obviously bigoted) derision, but it is difficult to see why you believe you have a dog in the fight, as the saying goes, since--even had you been born during the time of the First or Second Temples--these rules, and the others which enrage you so, were not meant to apply to you.

Similarly, the rules other injunctions you cite--animal sacrifice, participating in slavery, killing those who violated the Sabbath--would not have applied to you either. Now, are those particularly appalling? Hardly. Slavery, of course--including the binding of one's own children into service--existed in that portion of the world under Western control until the early 19th century. It still continues in the Far East, and probably in Africa. Animal sacrifice was practiced by every ancient society, including the supposedly advanced Greeks and Romans. Killing someone who violated the Sabbath might sound appalling--until you realize that aside from the Jews, no other nation had a Sabbath, so never had a day of rest, and that the death penalty which so shocks your ignorant sensibilities could not be carried out unless very stringent warnings were made beforehand, and equally stringent levels of proof were made before a court. But, of course, cleaving to the Sweet Valley High reading level, you wouldn't know this.

So are these things shocking? No. Why would they be? If you have slavery, you must have laws and rules which regulate it--and every society, until very recent times, did have slavery. Far better to determine under rule of law that a female slave will be, in effect, a concubine with legal rights and status under the terms of the agreement than to turn her over to a purchaser as mere chattel. Of course, we do not have slavery now; with labor saving devices, we do not need the kind of human drone labor on which ancient societies rested, so these provisions do not apply.

This is why atheist literalists like yourself invariably end up looking like fools when they try the "let's mock the literalists" routine. You use a method of cherry-picking that you would scorn to use when reading a contemporary morning newspaper, and apply it to isolated sentences which not only disregard the context in which the sentences themselves appear--and thus how they were intended to be applied--but the records of the jurisprudence that discuss how they were applied, and how that application (still keeping to what you deride as "literalism") has changed and evolved; and the larger context of the other societies which existed at the time these commandments first appeared--and, for that matter, other societies today which do not abide by them.

That is arrogance; that is stupidity; and that is bigotry.

Some things are empirically unjustified, and other things are morally wrong, regardless of where and when they occurred, and what scriptural justifications are proffered for them.

To note this fact is neither stupidity nor bigotry, it is merely honesty. And a refusal to be browbeaten and intimidated by those who would place all justifiable criticism of ancient religious injunctions out of bounds.

You are beginning to sound like the Muslims who incessantly attempt to justify Muhammed's pedophilic marriage to the 6 year old girl-child Aisha, at the age of 53. Or to rant that any criticism of such a union is unacceptable religious bigotry.

783 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:44:04pm

re: #777 Tigger2005

OT, this Tom Cruise movie "Valkyrie" looks good. It's been a while since there's been a good WW2 movie.

It is the story of some really brave men. I am surprised it took this long for the story to be told.

784 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:44:16pm

This is what he sent me:

Hi Charles,

I just want you to know I figured there was a 50:50 chance I'd get the stick for linking that old post of yours and had decided beforehand it was well worth it. Shame on you for what you've done to Robert; the guy is honest and decent (unlike you) and you've hurt him. Hypocrite.

I'd just like to know how much you got paid for posting that dangerous nonsense from the Gang of Eighteen.

So long for now,

Moe

785 Tigger2005  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:44:20pm

re: #777 Tigger2005

OT, this Tom Cruise movie "Valkyrie" looks good. It's been a while since there's been a good WW2 movie.

Unless you count "The Grey Zone," although I consider that a Holocaust movie rather than a WW2 movie.

786 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:44:28pm

re: #751 Salamantis

For Jews, the "Old Testament" is known as Tanak. There is no "New Testament" in Judaism.

787 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:45:04pm

Too many Moe Katz...

788 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:45:26pm

re: #762 nyc redneck

Everyone go up-ding 762!

789 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:45:27pm

re: #689 Sharmuta

Honestly- I think part of the problem is some people's inability to tolerate any joke or criticism of their faith. Reminds me of islamists.

I'm noting it on this very thread, from buzzsawmonkey.

790 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:45:52pm

re: #784 Charles

BooHoo Charles, you hurt poor widdle Roberts feelings! Shame on you for insisting on the truth!

791 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:45:59pm

re: #765 Son of the Black Dog

Not far behind the Gore family home, east of Nashville, there is a very large open-pit mine (I forget what they mine, maybe phosphates). The Gores receive large royalty payments from the mining company. There was an aerial photo of the house and the mine in Time magazine some years back.

So much for protecting the environment.

Kind of like the flip flops on tobaccy farming as I recall. This guy is a living, walking embodiment of a charlatan.
*SPIT*

792 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:45:59pm

re: #787 wrenchwench

Too many Moe Katz...


HAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

793 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:46:18pm

re: #784 Charles

Yeah- because decent people promote stalker sites.

794 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:46:37pm

re: #784 Charles

He adds "for now". Future sock alert...

795 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:46:37pm

re: #784 Charles

This is what he sent me:

great ,,, "so long for now'.

Indicates he plans on contacting you again at some point! I'm sure you're all atwitter!

796 Tigger2005  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:46:47pm

re: #783 CapeCoddah

It is the story of some really brave men. I am surprised it took this long for the story to be told.

It was told as part of the excellent, epic miniseries War and Remembrance, but there it was one story among many.

797 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:47:23pm

re: #788 Son of the Black Dog

Everyone go up-ding 762!

Will you pay me if I do?

798 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:47:35pm

re: #794 Bloodnok

He adds "for now". Future sock alert...

That's right. It's a threat.

799 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:47:44pm

re: #784 Charles

This is what he sent me:

I feel like crying. *wipes tear away*
/bwaaaHaaa - what an idiot shmokatz is!

800 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:47:44pm

re: #784 Charles

This is what he sent me:

how does he know Robert is hurt...there's more to this...Fitz!...over here...

801 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:48:04pm

re: #773 albusteve

no dont...that was stupid...

Who are you to be calling yourself stupid...
:)

802 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:48:14pm

re: #794 Bloodnok

He adds "for now". Future sock alert...

Bingo.

803 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:48:30pm

re: #798 Charles

That's right. It's a threat.

Be on the lookout for Moe Dogz.

804 yochanan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:48:42pm

there are plenty of books on jewish beliefs and customs with out going to the literal meaning in the bible is the jewish practice in the past or even today. How christians read the books we call the torah offen leaves a lot out esp in the way jews looked at it and understood it to mean. there are plenty of books on the jewish commandments (mitzvah) often they are only hinted at in the torah the real meaning is explained in the talmud and other jewish books that gentiles don't see or read.

805 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:49:14pm

re: #796 Tigger2005

Did not see that one, I am more of a reader than a watcher. I get lots of horrified looks when I tell people I have never seen Titanic.

806 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:49:15pm

re: #788 Son of the Black Dog

Everyone go up-ding 762!

LOL, thanks.
can't you just see him in that outfit. maybe breaking into a song.
his scam is just too much.

807 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:49:22pm
808 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:49:23pm

re: #761 rightymouse

People don't always think very deeply. When he became a born-again, he was given a Bible in English and that's all he knew. I suspect that he was not alone. Sad. But true. That said, he was a very kind person and once he was set straight on the facts of the matter, he was fine with that.

I see your point. It just seemed like a very child-like reaction to me. I would have figured that any adult to whom you said "the bible wasn't originally written in English" would think about it a second and say "ohhh yeah duh my bad, they didn't speak English back then" and wouldn't have completely freaked out about it at first.

809 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:49:51pm
810 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:50:21pm

re: #801 LGoPs

Who are you to be calling yourself stupid...
:)

ha!...well I'm really not a bloodthirsy guy...but then I get outside myself...

811 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:51:02pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

That asshole won't be missed by me.

812 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:51:04pm

I'm seriously considering posting the full email address and email headers of anyone who sends me stuff like that.

813 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:51:16pm

re: #702 rightymouse

You're dad was mostly correct, but that doesn't prove I've "jumped the shark" by stating that there are false theological (as opposed to philosophical) arguments, and even lies, in Job.

Didn't the Pharisees lie about Jesus to Pilate? Aren't there, in a literal sense, "lies" in the Bible that nonetheless advance the narrative?

And I've "jumped the shark" how?

814 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:52:15pm

re: #788 Son of the Black Dog

Already did...

815 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:52:29pm

re: #771 quickjustice

I lived in Nashville for several years. The Gore house is west of downtown, in the exclusive Belle Meade suburb. I don't know where the mine is.

Yeah Al lives the good life in Belle Meade. I was referencing the Gore family homeplace, out in Smith County, near Carthage.

816 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:53:25pm

re: #699 Bubblehead II

Ok. Just was a little vague to me.

/ Need more Crown

MORE Crown?

817 opnion  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:54:12pm

re: #753 VegasRick

We are Americans, not Europeans, bid difference.

True, so everyone here did not rush to run to the doctrinaire belief of man caused Global Warming. Even here though the mantra that "The debate is over' has intimidated a lot of people. A friend of mine told me that the Global Warming doubters (By that he meant that those that question that man is the main cause) are like people that believe that dinosaurs were around until 10,000 years ago.

818 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:54:25pm

re: #784 Charles

creep.

819 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:54:26pm

And "decent people" also refuse to condemn neo-fascists, but instead allow them a platform to spew their vile ideology while simultaneously bullshitting their friends and supporters about it.

820 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:54:27pm

re: #812 Charles

I'm seriously considering posting the full email address and email headers of anyone who sends me stuff like that.

whoa...an escalation of hostilities?...I guess turnabout is fair play...

821 Tigger2005  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:55:18pm

re: #783 CapeCoddah

It is the story of some really brave men. I am surprised it took this long for the story to be told.

They were brave men, no doubt. Not sure how many of them could be considered noble or good, though. I think most of them didn't have a problem with Germany becoming an imperial power, they just didn't like some aspects of Hitler's way of going about it. Also, they didn't want to stop the war to stop the killing in general, they wanted to stop it so Germany wouldn't be totally destroyed.

I read somewhere that the Germany general staff had not wanted to start another war until at least 1945, by which time Germany probably would have been unstoppable if the Allies had remained unprepared. Hitler got the ball rolling too early for their liking.

822 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:55:21pm

re: #797 sattv4u2

Will you pay me if I do?

You get karma in a future life.

823 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:55:51pm

re: #819 Sharmuta

And "decent people" also refuse to condemn neo-fascists, but instead allow them a platform to spew their vile ideology while simultaneously bullshitting their friends and supporters about it.

Roberts minions exposed...pretty simple really

824 Rancher  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:55:54pm

Bible iteralists answer me this, "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." Where he married his sister or a Neanderthal? Who founded the land of Nod?

/White Smoke

825 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:56:09pm

re: #783 CapeCoddah

It is the story of some really brave men. I am surprised it took this long for the story to be told.

I'm not sure about the wisdom of having Tom Cruise play Von Stauffenberg. . .it seems as silly to me as him playing a Samurai. . .nor am I very impressed by all the supposed German officers with blatant British accents. . .but it's a war movie, so I'll be seeing it (military history has always been my favorite subject).

826 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:56:09pm

re: #777 Tigger2005

OT, this Tom Cruise movie "Valkyrie" looks good. It's been a while since there's been a good WW2 movie.

Yeah, except the part where von Stauffenburg tries to kill Bush doesn't work for me...ooops, sorry, my cynicism of Hollywood is showing..

827 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:56:34pm

re: #28 Bumr50

Does it matter?
This argument is unproductive in my mind, as creationists are willfully ignoring much scientific evidence in order to satisfy their spiritual needs.
I believe that each of us does indeed have spiritual needs, even if your spiritual need is to rationalize everything empirically so as to placate your very own, personal, spiritual needs.
As long as this stays out of public policy and isn't criminal, I don't give a rodents derriere what anyone else believes, nor will it affect my voting.

I don't ask my auto mechanic to advise me on my stock portfolio, and if he does I simply take it as friendly banter, fit to pass the time but little else.

I don't ask my stock broker to fix my automobiles.

I don't ask my entertainers to advise me on political choices, and if they do I take it as simple diarrhea of the mouth and give it as much credence as it deserves.

I don't ask my doctor to fix my air conditioner, or listen if he tells me how it should be done.

I don't ask a lawyer how to get to heaven, or even if there is a heaven.

I don't ask a priest to explain science to me.

I don't ask a scientist to explain religion to me.

I don't ask a politician to explain anything to me.

Competence in one field does not mean that someone has competence in all fields.

828 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:56:49pm

re: #782 Salamantis

You are beginning to sound like the Muslims who incessantly attempt to justify Muhammed's pedophilic marriage to the 6 year old girl-child Aisha, at the age of 53. Or to rant that any criticism of such a union is unacceptable religious bigotry.

He reminded me of the muslim who explains to us how ignorant and unsophisticated we are being for seeing something barbaric in Mohammeds massacre of the Jews of Banu Quraishi. Sweet Valley High interpretation? No - just reason and common sense.

829 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:57:15pm

re: #824 Rancher

Bible iteralists answer me this, "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." Where he married his sister or a Neanderthal? Who founded the land of Nod?

/White Smoke

and what about Winkin and Blinkin?...interesting question

830 JumpLandPackRepeat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:57:35pm

re: #746 CapeCoddah

One post since April 16th, then drops a load and runs. God, I love these people. So entertaining. It is amazing how the idiots choose to remain silent most of the time. No balls whatsoever. That is pure cowardice, they cannot even defend their own positions.

It wasn't even a load...more of a pellet. I know if I were to wait this long to post after registering, it would be something a lot better than that little nugget of *wisdom*. Not much of an entrance (or exit), IMO.

831 father_of_10  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:57:57pm

re: #774 VegasRick

Kopy Katz brother.
/

Didn't they have a Broadway show?

832 Rancher  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:58:02pm

re: #760 Salamantis
So Schrödinger's Cat is alive?

833 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:58:03pm

re: #812 Charles

I'm seriously considering posting the full email address and email headers of anyone who sends me stuff like that.

What might the downside be?

834 quickjustice  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:58:17pm

re: #815 Son of the Black Dog

I've been to Carthage. The Gores lived in Washington, D.C., and summered on the Smith County farm to establish the residency Gore Sr. needed to remain in the U.S. Senate. I've been to the Fiddlers' Jamboree in Smith County on the 4th of July. Great party!

835 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:58:45pm

re: #812 Charles

I'm seriously considering posting the full email address and email headers of anyone who sends me stuff like that.

Seriously, I would. Nothing in the law that says you can't. If they email you, you have every right to post it on your blog, don't you?

836 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:59:17pm

re: #809 buzzsawmonkey

No: you are engaging in lies and in false equivalencies. What is worse, since you usually evince evidence of intelligence, you know full well you are doing so.

You offer no examples or justifications of what you consider "morally wrong"--but whatever that standard you cleave to may be, it rests, like it or not, on the very document you deride. You have the luxury of sitting back in your figurative Barcalounger and making "moral" pronouncements only because these injunctions which you consider so reprehensible furnished the basis for a society which permitted the emergence of the Fully Formed Moral Being Which Is You to emerge fully armed from its head...or somewhere.

Slavery is morally wrong. Killing someone for working on a particular day, or for engaging in consensual homosexuality, or for choosing to embrace another faith, is wrong. And while Judeo-Christian values did provide some of the basis for the West, so did Greco-Roman values and the values of other past civilizations. And they also all got some things wrong.

Your comparison with Islam is a transparent effort to play to the gallery, but since you merely try to wave the "bloody shirt" of the Mohammed/Aisha union without providing any foundation, context, or justification for doing so it must be dismissed as mere demagoguery.

The comparison is fair. In each case people are condemning those who dare to criticize a wrong or ignorant or foolish decision or injunction, simply because it is connected with a religion they revere. You just don't like to see the comparison made.

837 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:59:24pm

re: #784 Charles

re: #784 Charles

"I'd just like to know how much you got paid for posting that dangerous nonsense from the Gang of Eighteen."

Well there is the obligatory the evil jooosss are behind all the ills of the Middle East accusation, but what exactly did they say that was dangerous?

Ummm, let me guess, that the two State solution is a mistake and the Gang of 18 want to stop it?

/nah, that couldn't be it.

838 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 3:59:31pm

re: #823 albusteve

Roberts minions exposed...pretty simple really

Yep.

839 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:00:11pm

re: #806 nyc redneck

LOL, thanks.
can't you just see him in that outfit. maybe breaking into a song.
his scam is just too much.

Not to mention that the Gore family fortune was built on extraction of hydrocarbons. His father was president of Island Creek Coal company and later an officer and director of Occidental Petroleum. See Wiki at [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] although they've got the history a bit screwed up, and it looks like they're trying to downplay the family connection to big coal / big oil.

840 Tigger2005  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:00:14pm

re: #805 CapeCoddah

Did not see that one, I am more of a reader than a watcher. I get lots of horrified looks when I tell people I have never seen Titanic.

I'm a reader too, and have read both Winds of War and War and Remembrance. But both miniseries are definitely worth a look, especially War and Remembrance. The few cast changes for W&R were perfect, and Jane Seymour gives the performance of a lifetime as Natalie Jastrow. There is a scene where, starving, she eats an apple (from a sack given by a good Christian Samaritan) on the train on the way to Auschwitz ... she devours it, stem, seeds, and all, tears of gratitude streaming down her face, and licks every bit of juice off her fingers. Very powerful.

And the Auschwitz scenes are some of the most disturbing ever committed to film. Extremely graphic and terrifying. Should be required high school viewing.

841 JumpLandPackRepeat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:00:20pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

Post the highlights for the next open thread. : )

842 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:00:49pm

re: #805 CapeCoddah

Did not see that one, I am more of a reader than a watcher. I get lots of horrified looks when I tell people I have never seen Titanic.

It's 2 books by Herman Wouk - The Winds of War and War and Remembrance The latter is a continuation of the former. Both classics IMO

843 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:01:54pm

re: #809 buzzsawmonkey

You have the luxury of sitting back in your figurative Barcalounger and making "moral" pronouncements only because these injunctions which you consider so reprehensible furnished the basis for a society which permitted the emergence of the Fully Formed Moral Being Which Is You to emerge fully armed from its head...or somewhere.

You're assuming that a moral society is not possible in the absence of those injunctions. However, primitive cultures existing today in total ignorance of them have a fully formed system of morals, as strong (if not stronger) than those of our society that is (as you say) based on those injunctions.

844 albusteve  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:03:04pm

re: #842 LGoPs

It's 2 books by Herman Wouk - The Winds of War and War and Remembrance The latter is a continuation of the former. Both classics IMO

super excellent books

845 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:03:29pm

re: #832 Rancher

So Schrödinger's Cat is alive?

Whether it is or it isn't, it's a very tiny cat. No bigger than a single photon.

846 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:03:52pm

re: #767 Charles

Don't anyone be surprised, by the way, if you see 'Moe Katz' posting at stalker sites. He's been doing it for quite a while, and today he posted a snarky comment here that finally got him blocked. Then he sent me a really vicious hate mail.

That explains many things.

847 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:04:16pm

re: #808 ArchangelMichael

I see your point. It just seemed like a very child-like reaction to me. I would have figured that any adult to whom you said "the bible wasn't originally written in English" would think about it a second and say "ohhh yeah duh my bad, they didn't speak English back then" and wouldn't have completely freaked out about it at first.


Think about what must happen to those who convert to Christianity in let's say 3rd world countries and who are barely educated, let alone have a high degree of literacy. They are given a Bible translated into their language. Some concepts/meanings cannot be translated literally from one language to another, including to English. So the translators do the best job they can to get the substance across. And they use different methods to accomplish this.

848 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:04:41pm

re: #809 buzzsawmonkey

Buzzsaw, surely killing people for doing a bit of work on a sunday is wrong? Even if it was the latest thing in religious innovation at the time? There is no possible excuse.

849 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:06:22pm

re: #746 CapeCoddah

One post since April 16th, then drops a load and runs. God, I love these people. So entertaining. It is amazing how the idiots choose to remain silent most of the time. No balls whatsoever. That is pure cowardice, they cannot even defend their own positions.

I think they have an alarm system built in so lights start flashing and klaxons start blaring when Charles posts an ID thread. They drop the baby, run in, make their post, go back and pick up the baby not to be heard from again until the next ID thread.

850 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:06:55pm

re: #813 quickjustice

You're dad was mostly correct, but that doesn't prove I've "jumped the shark" by stating that there are false theological (as opposed to philosophical) arguments, and even lies, in Job.

Didn't the Pharisees lie about Jesus to Pilate? Aren't there, in a literal sense, "lies" in the Bible that nonetheless advance the narrative?

And I've "jumped the shark" how?


By using the word 'lie'. There is no intent to lie in the Biblical texts. Sorry. If you want to believe this, that's your business. I simply disagree with your premise.

851 razorbacker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:07:28pm

Baptists and Pentecostals

Could apply to most any religion, but Mike is used to Baptists and Pentecostals.

852 stuiec  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:09:12pm

re: #836 Salamantis

Slavery is morally wrong. Killing someone for working on a particular day, or for engaging in consensual homosexuality, or for choosing to embrace another faith, is wrong. And while Judeo-Christian values did provide some of the basis for the West, so did Greco-Roman values and the values of other past civilizations. And they also all got some things wrong.

But how do you KNOW they are wrong? What source of authority do you derive this knowledge of right and wrong from?

Is it possible that someday it will be considered an evil on a par with slavery to have given a child a non-diet soda? To have driven a vehicle with an internal-combustion engine running on fossil fuels? To have aborted an unborn child?

I know that you know what is right and wrong by your standard. How do you know that your standard is universal?

853 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:10:34pm
854 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:14:08pm
855 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:14:22pm

re: #812 Charles

This may get me in trouble with a lot of the Lizards, but please Charles, do not do this. IMHO doing so will only bring you down to the same level as those whom you have spoken out against for employing the same tactics. One of which is now heading to jail

856 J.S.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:14:24pm

re: #819 Sharmuta

I just recently read an article (brief one) making the case that certain individuals who claim that all of Islam is terroristic are actually furthering the cause of radical Islam -- (and very similar is the opposite tactic to claim to want to "dialogue" and to "understand" and to commiserate with radical Islamists)...either extreme advances the Islamists.

857 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:14:34pm

re: #843 Yashmak

You're assuming that a moral society is not possible in the absence of those injunctions. However, primitive cultures existing today in total ignorance of them have a fully formed system of morals, as strong (if not stronger) than those of our society that is (as you say) based on those injunctions.

Name one.

858 stuiec  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:15:15pm

re: #668 Salamantis

They existed in and of themselves; they just didn't exist for us. Trees that fall in uninhabited forests really do generate sound waves, even if no one is there to hear them.

On that reasoning, you cannot positively aver that God does not exist -- only that you personally have never seen Him. Yet you believe in the existence of a whole range of things which you cannot see but whose existence you infer from second- and third-order effects.

859 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:17:30pm
860 Rancher  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:18:05pm

re: #845 Salamantis
I thought the event that triggers the poison that kills the cat is very tiny but the cat is your regular "I Can Has Cheezburger?" sort. Quantum Mechanics makes my head hurt. God does not play dice with the universe.

861 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:18:54pm

Denomination/
Denominational
Family

# of Adults
self-identification
2001

% of U.S. pop.
self-identification
2001

% weekly
church attendance
this denom.
2001

% of U.S. pop.
in attendance
at this denom.
during a given week

Catholic 50,873,000 24.5% 48% 11.74%
Baptist 33,830,000 16.3% 50% 8.13%
Methodist 14,150,000 6.8% 49% 3.33%
Lutheran 9,580,000 4.6% 43% 1.98%
Pentecostal/Charismatic/Foursquare 4,407,000 2.1% 66% 1.40%
Presbyterian 5,596,000 2.7% 49% 1.32%
Mormon/
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2,697,000 1.3% 71% 0.92%
Non-denominational Christians 2,489,000 1.2% 61% 0.73%
Church of Christ 2,593,000 1.2% 58% 0.72%
Episcopal/Anglican 3,451,000 1.7% 30% 0.50%
Assemblies of God 1,106,000 0.5% 69% 0.37%
Congregational/
United Church of Christ 1,378,000 0.7% * 30% 0.20%
Seventh-Day Adventist 724,000 0.3% 47% 0.16%

Which of these U.S. Christian denominations are Bible literalists/young Earth creationists?

/I know for sure Catholics and Lutherans aren't, so that excludes about 30% of Christians

862 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:19:12pm

re: #857 Daisy

Name one.

The Kalahari Bushmen, any of a number of tribes in the Amazon river basin, all of which have fully formed moral codes in the complete absence of the moral framework provided by Christianity.

863 Outrider  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:19:33pm

re: #812 Charles

I'm seriously considering posting the full email address and email headers of anyone who sends me stuff like that.

Why not? Your E-mail address is out there for anyone to use. If they are E-mailing in context to this blog, then it should be turn about. Especially if you have posted a warning stating your intentions. ;-)>

864 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:21:13pm

re: #854 buzzsawmonkey

I'm assuming nothing of the kind.

Yet the paragraph I quoted from you makes exactly that statement, that it's only because of those injunctions that Salamantis is able to make these statements today. It may not be what you meant, but it is indeed what you said.

865 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:23:44pm

re: #850 rightymouse

By using the word 'lie'. There is no intent to lie in the Biblical texts. Sorry. If you want to believe this, that's your business. I simply disagree with your premise.

What about this, pulled from the Book of Genesis?

Genesis 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

And what did the serpent tell Eve?

Genesis 3: 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3: 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Sal: So apparently, the Serpent told Eve the truth, and God lied to Adam, about the effects of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, and about God knowing that those would indeed be the effects (being, like God, awakened to the knowledge of good and evil). They were already going to die; only eating the fruit of the Tree of Life would have prevented that - which is why God drove them out of Eden and barred their return - so they wouldn't get the chance.

By the way, if there is only one God, who is God talking to and to whom is He referring when he says "like one of us?"

866 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:24:04pm

re: #854 buzzsawmonkey

I'm assuming nothing of the kind. I'm merely stating that Salamantis is a lying hypocrite, and knows it, as he knows full well that the "morality" he is laying claim to is in fact Bible-based,

Religion is not the sole fount of morality. For the record, I have read your entire exchange with Sal, and find his statements in no way dishonest or hypocritical. He simply has different beliefs than you.

867 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:24:27pm
868 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:24:52pm
869 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:27:10pm

re: #859 buzzsawmonkey

You do have reading problems, don't you?

No.

First: the Sabbath laws in the Bible don't apply to non-Jews.

So? The muslim law regarding the killing of apostates only applies to muslims. That doesn't put it beyond moral judgement and criticism.

Second: the application of those laws require certain warnings to be made before liability exists, and these warnings must be testified to in court. Third: an adjudication of "guilty" requires further stringencies of proof still, over and above said warnings and their proof.

WOW. That is EXACTLY how Islamists defend the sharia law on the murder of apostates.

870 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:27:57pm

re: #868 buzzsawmonkey

You are wrong.

About what you meant, or about what you said? They seem to be two different things, based on your subsequent statements.

871 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:29:45pm

re: #852 stuiec

But how do you KNOW they are wrong? What source of authority do you derive this knowledge of right and wrong from?

Is it possible that someday it will be considered an evil on a par with slavery to have given a child a non-diet soda? To have driven a vehicle with an internal-combustion engine running on fossil fuels? To have aborted an unborn child?

I know that you know what is right and wrong by your standard. How do you know that your standard is universal?

These standards (against murder, theft, lying, slavery, etc.) may be derived from the human existential imperatives concommitant upon sharing this common home and its land and resources with other persons, and endeavoring to all get along here as comfortably and as freely as possible. Religions either appropriated them from the cultures in which they were born, or appropriated them from earlier religion that appropriated them from their own societal cradles. All of them are found in most religions, and most of them are found in all religions, whether those religions believe in one god (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Bahai, Sikhism), many gods (Hinduism, Paganism), or no gods at all (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism).

872 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:30:01pm

re: #865 Salamantis

What about this, pulled from the Book of Genesis?

Genesis 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

And what did the serpent tell Eve?

Genesis 3: 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3: 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Sal: So apparently, the Serpent told Eve the truth, and God lied to Adam, about the effects of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, and about God knowing that those would indeed be the effects (being, like God, awakened to the knowledge of good and evil). They were already going to die; only eating the fruit of the Tree of Life would have prevented that - which is why God drove them out of Eden and barred their return - so they wouldn't get the chance.

By the way, if there is only one God, who is God talking to and to whom is He referring when he says "like one of us?"

I don't believe Genesis to be the literal word of God but it has no bearing on my belief in God.

Did the people who wrote the texts that are now compiled into what we know as 'Genesis' intend to lie? No. Most likely they were relating stories handed down generationally.

873 J.S.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:30:08pm

re: #865 Salamantis

You're laughably confused with respect to your "reading" of Genesis...

874 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:30:14pm

re: #858 stuiec

On that reasoning, you cannot positively aver that God does not exist -- only that you personally have never seen Him. Yet you believe in the existence of a whole range of things which you cannot see but whose existence you infer from second- and third-order effects.

I have a bigger problem than that: Just 5 minutes ago my son's 3rd grade teacher called me to say that she caught him telling two other boys in the class that there is no Santa Claus. She said the two boys looked shocked. She had to tell my son, 8, to "keep his beliefs about Santa" to himself.

She was very sweet about it - but I've got to figure out what to say so that he doesn't feel it's his job to set the record straight for everyone else.

875 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:31:24pm

re: #867 buzzsawmonkey

Just what is admirable, or worth emulating, in the moral code of the Kalahari Bushmen?

What isn't? They love their children, raise them to treat each other with respect, not to lie, etc. etc.

Why should we care, on any basis other than the anthropological, what their moral code consists of? What is it about the Kalahari Bushmen that attracts you

Ask Daisy, she's the one who asked me to provide examples.

--and why, outside of the bad WiFi service, are you not hunkering down with them?

The commute to my job would be too long. Plus, I sunburn too easily, so the wardrobe wouldn't suit me well.

876 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:31:33pm

re: #865 Salamantis

You would have to be answered with speculative theology, but such answers would be useless and and actually risible. In addition, I'd end up in dispute with other theologies. I think, instead, I will order some Korean food delivered and watch Man on Fire with Denzel

877 DistantThunder  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:31:35pm

re: #861 Killian Bundy

Denomination/
Denominational
Family

# of Adults
self-identification
2001

% of U.S. pop.
self-identification
2001

% weekly
church attendance
this denom.
2001

% of U.S. pop.
in attendance
at this denom.
during a given week

Which of these U.S. Christian denominations are Bible literalists/young Earth creationists?

/I know for sure Catholics and Lutherans aren't, so that excludes about 30% of Christians

Mormon's aren't.

878 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:33:09pm

re: #876 Joan

You would have to be answered with speculative theology, but such answers would be useless and and actually risible. In addition, I'd end up in dispute with other theologies. I think, instead, I will order some Korean food delivered and watch Man on Fire with Denzel

Grab some Kimchi for me, would ya? :)

879 pbird  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:34:17pm

re: #115 gmsc

"Well, yes...of course," says the other monk.

"So, what if, in the past 2,000 years," sayd the forst monk, "Somebody misspelled something or got a word wrong, and we've been copying that mistake ever since?"

"well, that's a good question," says the second monk, "That could really be a problem. Wait a minute, I know think we have the origional documents somewhere in the basement. Tell you what--stay here and I'll go see if I can find them."

So the second monk goes down into the basement. After waiting several hours, the first monk decides to go look for him. So he goes down there, and sure enough, he sees the other monk. But he's crying.

"Why are you crying?" he asks.

"It says CELEBRATE."

Of course this joke is nonsense. I can't resist mentioning that nowhere in the Bible does it command priests to be celibate and mention the existance of monks. There I feel better.

880 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:35:07pm

re: #862 Yashmak

The Kalahari Bushmen, any of a number of tribes in the Amazon river basin, all of which have fully formed moral codes in the complete absence of the moral framework provided by Christianity.

You've named several disparate groups of people when you refer to the "Kalahari Bushmen", presumably w/disparate moral codes, and then "any number of different tribes in the Amazon river basin". Sticking with the Amazon, may I remind you that cannibalism was practiced, more or less routinely, by numerous Amazonian tribal peoples. Cannibalism was a central tenet of their fully formed 'moral code' - formed (obviously) in the absence of the moral framework of Christianity.

881 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:35:27pm

I'm not entirely sure how we went from Bush, to arguing ID, to talking about Operation Valkyrie, to some sort of confusing conversation on the origin of morals and comparative moral value, to a big argument between buzz and Sal. . .

but I'm going home for the day. See y'all tomorrow !

882 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:36:30pm
‘This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.’

I can't even begin to say how profoundly disturbing this statement is.

A couple hundred years ago, America was unique in the world for it's tolerance of ALL religions and beliefs. It has led the way since then in spreading this tolerance to at least some of the rest of the world.

If anyone thinks that politicians should be elected in order to enforce a particular set of religious beliefs on the entire populace, that person has a pathological misunderstanding of what America is all about.

Republicans should distinguish themselves by meeting such demands with a clear, unequivocal statement: we stand for a government that stays out of the way of it's citizen's lives as much as possible, and pledge to pursue policies that allow EVERYONE in the country to pursue their own beliefs without interference from government or anyone else.

There's no tent big enough to hold such bigoted zealots. Let them stand out in the rain, where they belong. Maybe they'll realize how lucky they are to live in a country where they can practice their own religion, instead of in a country where a state-endorsed religion is rammed down their throats and everyone else's.

This is NOT Conservatism, by any stretch of imagination or definition. It is an odious, foul, intrusive attempt to insert government into private matters that flies in the very face of the small-government, free-market, free-WILLED Conservative ideology that has always been espoused by the movement's founders and deepest thinkers.

Fundamentalist evangelical Christians are resembling the Taliban more and more every day. They're only a thin veneer of law away from beheading those who disagree with them, and will happily deprive anyone who strays even a millimeter away from their beliefs of rights, property, and - if given the power - of life itself.

If we're going to consider marching 30 million illegal immigrants across the border in shackles, let's at least consider marching an additional 30 million fundamentally un-American Evangelicals out of here with them, before they make any progress turning the entire continent into a heretical Christian Afghanistan.

883 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:37:33pm

re: #881 Yashmak

Have a good one, Yashmak :)

884 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:39:11pm

Or maybe I'll watch Devil Wore Prada. Given the topic I'm fleeing from here (heh-heh).

Food for thought: Adam and Eve were not supposed to die, they were to be transfigured into superior bodies. When they fell, they forfeited that reward for the responsible exercise of free will, and must suffer physical death. And, the Creator is...complex. But, hey, it is easier to just say it's lies. 'bye!

885 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:39:51pm

re: #878 rightymouse

Ab so LUTE ly

*drools*

886 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:40:57pm

re: #875 Yashmak


"Ask Daisy, she's the one who asked me to provide examples."

Uh huh. No you don't. We each asked you the same question in different posts. And I asked you to provide one example. You chose to provide several non=specific examples. Just curious, are you the youngest sibling in your family?

887 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:41:17pm

Beleive it or not, I'm about to go and watch the rest of Ben Steins 'Expelled' from last night. Nasty chore, but has to be done.

Later...

888 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:42:35pm

re: #887 Jimmah

Night Jimmah. Stay strong. :)

889 JamesWI  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:43:15pm

re: #887 Jimmah

Beleive it or not, I'm about to go and watch the rest of Ben Steins 'Expelled' from last night. Nasty chore, but has to be done.

Later...

Hopefully downloaded, and not purchased/rent? (Hoping you're not contributing financially to that stupidity)

890 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:43:33pm

re: #885 Joan

Ab so LUTE ly

*drools*


Thanky! :)

891 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:44:20pm

re: #880 Daisy

You've named several disparate groups of people when you refer to the "Kalahari Bushmen", presumably w/disparate moral codes, and then "any number of different tribes in the Amazon river basin". Sticking with the Amazon, may I remind you that cannibalism was practiced, more or less routinely, by numerous Amazonian tribal peoples. Cannibalism was a central tenet of their fully formed 'moral code' - formed (obviously) in the absence of the moral framework of Christianity.

You asked me for AN example, I provided one specific one, and a general group of other tribal cultures which all have well formed morals, completely isolated from Christianity. In 'sticking with the Amazon', which you seem to believe is full to this day with cannibals (it is not), I note you ignore the specific example I provided. . .probably because you can find nothing in the Kalahari people's morals to criticize. How many of those Amazon tribes are cannibalistic today? Very few, if any tribes there still engage in that practice. But you choose to highlight those rare occurrences because (I guess) you feel they are examples of bad morals being the result of being isolated from Christianity. I could be wrong about that, your motives in trying to pick a fight with me are a mystery to me.

Perhaps if you indicated to me what, exactly, it is that you have an issue with, I could address it. But I'll have to address it tomorrow, as I'm going home.

892 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:44:58pm

re: #886 Daisy

"Ask Daisy, she's the one who asked me to provide examples."

Uh huh. No you don't. We each asked you the same question in different posts. And I asked you to provide one example. You chose to provide several non=specific examples. Just curious, are you the youngest sibling in your family?

Nope. Eldest.

893 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:45:58pm
894 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:50:28pm

re: #853 buzzsawmonkey

Slavery was determined to be "morally wrong," as you put it, because people who believed in the documents you deride decided that it was morally wrong. And once that larger moral determination was made, these laws became null and void.

Slavery was also approved of in the New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

KKKers also appealed to the Biblical story of Ham, who was burned by God with a mark for witnessing his drunken father Noah's nakedness - a mark that signified that all of his descendents were pre-emptively condemned to be slaves. Many religious denominations interpreted that mark as blackness. The Southern Baptists and Southern Methodists split from their co-parishioners in the 1840's over precisely this issue. Both the pro-slavery and the anti-slavery side quoted scriptures in support of their positions - and the pro-slavery side found more there to quote.

As far as your personal determinations of what else is "morally wrong," these too--like it or not--rest upon the documents you deride, and your personal application of one portion of them to nullify another.

Actually, my personal determinations come from many different faiths (and some from outside religion altogether). They share most, but not all of these principles, which they either appropriated from the cultures in which they were born, or appropriated from earlier faiths which had done the same.

I will not trouble you with a discussion of what you call "homosexuality," a modern term which nowhere exists in the Bible, because you are clearly unfitted to engage in it. The Bible, however, condemns not "homosexuality," but homosexual acts; the distinction between acts and status also exists in modern, secular American law.

Homosexual acts are how homosexuals who are in love express it. It would be senseless to accept their gender orientation nature, yet condemn their loving expression of it.

What "Greco-Roman values" do you fantasize condemned slavery? Not only did the Romans not condemn slavery, they practiced it in a chattel form far more oppressive than anything sanctioned by the Bible--further, they sanctioned the use of (enslaved) human beings in fatal blood sports. They also sanctioned the right of a paterfamilias to kill his children on whim. In these things, they were utterly in step with the "other past civilizations" you so admire--but not with the Bible. If you wish to find support for your Moral Pronouncements anywhere in the ancient world, the Bible is the best you're going to get.

Like I said, they all got plenty wrong. But The Greeks originated the idea of democracy, and the disciplines of logic, and geometry, and much else besides. Most contemporary philosophy has Greco-Roman roots.

As to how brutal Biblical slavery could be:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

to be continued...

895 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:51:22pm

re: #891 Yashmak

"I could be wrong about that, your motives in trying to pick a fight with me are a mystery to me."

What a seriously odd thing to say. Asking a pointed question is not considered 'picking a fight' where I come from. It's called "asking a question/engaging in a discussion".

896 pbird  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:51:37pm

re: #893 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you. You said a lot.

897 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:53:02pm

re: #861 Killian Bundy

Hey Killian. I think you are on to something here. I hope you follow up and do the research and tell us the results. It would be very interesting to see the actual size of the community in question.

898 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:53:18pm

re: #893 buzzsawmonkey

Most excellent!

899 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:53:25pm

re: #853 buzzsawmonkey

As far as the Mohammed/Aisha comparison which you raise once again, you still have not supported it. Give up a little detail; go ahead. You're going to lose.

I supported it. In each case adherents of a faith attempt to browbeat or intimidate others away from reasoned criticisms of events or injunctions contained within its scriptures. Your willful inability to see this rivals the denials of Young Earth Creationists when presented with radiometric dating.

900 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:53:53pm
901 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:54:15pm

re: #882 SixDegrees

I was agree with you completely on this comment until I got to the end. Deporting Americans we don't agree with is also not conservative, and is likely what they'd like to do to us as well. The solution, imo, to this problem is better civics education. But the inflammatory rhetoric of "deportations" is not helpful in this discussion.

Otherwise a good post, but I withhold a ding for the ending.

902 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:55:21pm

re: #895 Daisy

"I could be wrong about that, your motives in trying to pick a fight with me are a mystery to me."

What a seriously odd thing to say. Asking a pointed question is not considered 'picking a fight' where I come from. It's called "asking a question/engaging in a discussion".

OK. I must have been reading a combative tone into your comments that actually wasn't there. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I hope you'll grant me the same benefit of the doubt when reading mine.

903 Teh Flowah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:55:36pm

re: #630 johnnyreb

The GW theory is literally falling apart more and more every year when temperatures around the world are in fact going down, and the MSM and "crisis crying" scientists are ignoring these facts. That was my original point.

Actually, they don't ignore it. There are several competing theories about what effect the made made increases to greenhouse gasses will have on the climate. Suffice to say, scientists aren't exactly sure what will happen, there's no consensus on that. What there is consensus on, is that man is altering the existing natural cycle.

If you want to dispute the consensus, that's fine. But don't take the play out of the creationist playbook of saying that every unexplained aspect means the theory must be wrong, or that the scientific consensus doesn't exist when indeed it really truly does.

904 J.S.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:57:39pm

re: #893 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent post, buzzsawmonkey!

905 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:58:13pm

re: #893 buzzsawmonkey

I particularly like this:
"If the atheist literalists who are the most avid Bible-bashers here gave the text they so blatantly hate--and equally blatantly do not have a child's understanding of--an ounce of the respect they reflexively give to the vaporings of any moron sporting a Ph.D, they would find themselves in a much more hospitable environment. But they are too blinded to do that--not only by a hatred which visibly radiates from their posts like heat waves from a steam radiator, but by an arrogance which thinks that they can understand a complex text by casual reading. And it is that behavior which excites disgust--not a lack of belief in any particular deity."

I have nothing against people who live on trust funds. But I do object to permanently unemployable trust fund babies talking about practical financial matters as if they've earned their own money. Same w/atheists and their "social moral codes" which they are too ignorant to credit properly to the religions that formed those same codes.

906 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:59:10pm

re: #902 Yashmak

OK. I must have been reading a combative tone into your comments that actually wasn't there. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I hope you'll grant me the same benefit of the doubt when reading mine.

Granted.

907 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 4:59:27pm

re: #893 buzzsawmonkey

It is no surprise that Islam resembles Judaism in many ways; most of the tenets of Islam were lifted from Judaism and, as I have observed, Islam very much resembles Judaism with all of the rachmones (mercy) removed.

The problem with bigots like yourself, Salamantis, and a few others here is that you insist on the Sweet Valley High understanding of these things. This is not about belief, as I made clear--way upthread--to all except the bigots here. It is about sophistication in understanding, which the bigots lack--and the false sophistication of an arrogance which refuses to acknowledge its debts.

Two things may look very similar, and yet be very different; a Rolls and a Hyundai, or a coral snake and that non-poisonous version which so resembles it, the name of which escapes me. To the unsophisticated pseudosophisticates who have determined, on their own paltry and nonexistent scholarship that the Bible is crap, evil, or whatever pejorative du soir is favored today, there is no distinction between one set of laws and another on the grounds of their superficial similarities, even though the results of both sets of jurisprudence are very different.

This is self-evident arrogance and stupidity--and it is that arrogance and stupidity, that refusal to make distinctions that are quite evident to anyone of intelligence, that regularly offends people in threads of this sort--not "lack of belief." If the atheist literalists who are the most avid Bible-bashers here gave the text they so blatantly hate--and equally blatantly do not have a child's understanding of--an ounce of the respect they reflexively give to the vaporings of any moron sporting a Ph.D, they would find themselves in a much more hospitable environment. But they are too blinded to do that--not only by a hatred which visibly radiates from their posts like heat waves from a steam radiator, but by an arrogance which thinks that they can understand a complex text by casual reading. And it is that behavior which excites disgust--not a lack of belief in any particular deity.

Apparently all of your ancient goatherders possessed advanced degrees in semiotics and deconstructionist theory.

One person's sophistication is another person's sophistry. You are engaging in the latter. And slinging gratuitous ad hominems around like the intolerant apologist you are. Meanwhile trying to defend the indefensible by attacking those who dare to note the fact of some religious injunctions' indefensibility.

908 skaught  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:00:04pm

re: #593 Sharmuta

literalism

A Biblical literalist be one who takes the Genesis creation story to be literally true.

That's not the definition I use, though. I believe the Bible uses metaphor and symbolism. Jesus told parables. Revelations uses imagery. I believe it all to be true, but a "day" in Genesis may be a billion years.

Scott

909 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:05:03pm

re: #854 buzzsawmonkey

I'm assuming nothing of the kind. I'm merely stating that Salamantis is a lying hypocrite, and knows it, as he knows full well that the "morality" he is laying claim to is in fact Bible-based, whatever else he may claim informs it. So far, he's provided squat, but that's par for the course.

Of course primitive cultures existing today have fully formed systems of morals. Explain, please, which societies you are speaking of; what those systems are; what you find admirable about them; and why we should care.

Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Confucian and Jainist religions have highly developed ethical systems that have nothing whatsoever to do with Judeo-Christianity. And they had them millennia ago. The Jainist concept of ahimsa (no-harm), for instance, is ten thousand years old.

The last tenuous refuge of a scoundrel is to call another person a liar. Especially when they're not, and can prove it, as I just did.

910 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:08:27pm

re: #858 stuiec

On that reasoning, you cannot positively aver that God does not exist -- only that you personally have never seen Him. Yet you believe in the existence of a whole range of things which you cannot see but whose existence you infer from second- and third-order effects.

But no second or third order effects can be conclusively attributed to God, whereas we can technologically augment our perceptions and mediatedly peer into the cosmic and microphysical realms (so we have empirical evidence of such things, and belief is not required). No working god-detector has ever been devised.

911 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:09:09pm

re: #901 Sharmuta

I was agree with you completely on this comment until I got to the end. Deporting Americans we don't agree with is also not conservative, and is likely what they'd like to do to us as well. The solution, imo, to this problem is better civics education. But the inflammatory rhetoric of "deportations" is not helpful in this discussion.

Otherwise a good post, but I withhold a ding for the ending.

Point taken. I meant it as a piece of sarcasm, drawn from the bigotry expressed by the fundies, but it's my fault for wording it and working it in clumsily.

Let me just reiterate that the imposition of religion through politics has no place in this country, and Conservatism has always upheld this and other intrusions on the rights of the individual. The GOP - or whatever party decides to hew to a Conservative agenda - would serve itself well by making this point very clear, and letting the religious zealots know that their votes are welcome, their beliefs will be tolerated and respected, but the party will not be used to enforce their religious beliefs on others.

912 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:10:16pm

re: #859 buzzsawmonkey

You do have reading problems, don't you? First: the Sabbath laws in the Bible don't apply to non-Jews. Second: the application of those laws require certain warnings to be made before liability exists, and these warnings must be testified to in court. Third: an adjudication of "guilty" requires further stringencies of proof still, over and above said warnings and their proof.

So what the hell is your problem?

Killing anybody, Jew or Gentile, with warning or without, and with court approval or without, for working on a particular day is wrong.

913 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:12:12pm

re: #860 Rancher

I thought the event that triggers the poison that kills the cat is very tiny but the cat is your regular "I Can Has Cheezburger?" sort. Quantum Mechanics makes my head hurt. God does not play dice with the universe.

True enough. It's the trigger that is tiny. But you quote Einstein. He was wrong, and Feynmann was right, about quantum indeterminacy.

914 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:13:14pm
915 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:13:22pm

re: #908 skaught

So- if you don't like the definition of a word, you make up your own? Sorry, but words mean things. If you allow for Biblical metaphor, you can't really be a literalist then, can you?

916 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:13:38pm

re: #861 Killian Bundy

The major creationist Protestant denominations are Southern Baptist, Southern Methodist, and Assembly of God.

917 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:13:52pm
918 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:15:36pm

I am going to violate the Iron Fist Rule here and post this. But I have yet to receive a acceptable answer to these this questions. They are are for the most part Yes or No answers

1. God created Man (Adam)
2. Man (Adam) did not have a mate) while all other animals did.
3. God created a woman (Eve) from one of Adams ribs.
4. Adam and Eve messed up and got tossed out of the Garden of Eden.
5. After being tossed out, they had two children. Cain and Able
6. Cain Wasted Able in a dispute
7. Cain was driven from the land.
8. Cain went on to raise a people called the Cainonites?

Question. barring incest and the lack of daughters, How the hell did we become?

919 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:16:41pm
920 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:17:56pm
921 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:18:37pm

Hinduism has a caste system that I would not consider morally ethical. It's appalling, actually.

922 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:18:44pm

re: #914 buzzsawmonkey

You, like Yashmak, are attempting--stupidly or disingenuously--to suggest that I have said that there are "no ethical systems" except for those based on the Bible. At no point have I ever made such a claim, and I am not making it now. If you, or Yashmak, or anyone else, claims so, you are either a very poor reader or intentionally lying.

Sure, there are other ethical systems. So what? What, in your mind, does that prove?

As far as you are concerned, you are not a Jain; you are not Hindu; you are not Buddhist, Taoist, or Confucian. You are, like it or not, the product of a Christian background--and, much as you clearly hate to acknowledge it, your moral choices are informed by that Christian background. Even if you treat the world's religions as a tapas bar, and build your own private religion like those guys building their Capital One cards in the TV ads, your choices will be informed by that Christian background.

My choices, just like anyone else's, are informed by all I have experienced, seen, heard, or read. And that includes major amouints of most philosophies and religions.

Of course my choices will be informed by Christian morality. Why should I gratitously exclude any source of morallity from consideration? But I do not restrict myself to that single source. Far from it.

I am an eclectic pagan, which means that I do indeed perform my personal wheat and chaff upon what each faith offers.

923 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:19:20pm

re: #917 buzzsawmonkey

Sez you. Who the f*ck died and made you G-d--or even justice of the peace?

Uh, buzz he was saying that such killing was wrong. Cool it.

924 Killian Bundy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:19:36pm

re: #916 Salamantis

The major creationist Protestant denominations are Southern Baptist, Southern Methodist, and Assembly of God.

/in other words, a decided minority of the Christians in this country

925 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:19:46pm

re: #812 Charles
I don't know, Charles.
It's prohibited in the rules here.
And although you're the boss, once you make yourself above the same rules everyone else lives by, you feed the (as you call them) ''moonbat'' sites that are looking for just suchlike inconsistencies.
But I can certainly sympathize with you.
I got called quite a few nasty names the other day.
And, since I have a link to my web site here at my icon, a few even went much further in their emails to me.
Icky.

926 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:20:44pm
927 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:21:06pm

re: #919 buzzsawmonkey

As I said. I am violating the Iron Fist Rule. But please answer the questions.

928 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:21:28pm

re: #917 buzzsawmonkey

I have been reading your posts here...thank you. Very well done, Buzz.

929 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:21:39pm
930 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:21:51pm

re: #867 buzzsawmonkey

Every society has "a moral code." The Aztecs, who ripped the still-beating hearts out of living prisoners of war, had a "moral code"--which also existed in complete absence of "the moral framework provided by Christianity."

Nobody here has been arguing that there is no moral code other than Christianity--or Judaism--except perhaps the literalist atheists who delight in raising up strawmen. Just what is admirable, or worth emulating, in the moral code of the Kalahari Bushmen? Why should we care, on any basis other than the anthropological, what their moral code consists of? What is it about the Kalahari Bushmen that attracts you--and why, outside of the bad WiFi service, are you not hunkering down with them?

What is admirable or worth emulating in the moral codes of Confucians, or a Buddhists, or a Jains? Much.

931 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:23:02pm

re: #920 Iron Fist

I had forgotten that. His hypocracy knows no bounds, and it has been that way for some time. In fairness, I met Al Gore back in the early '90s when he was a Senator. while he didn't really strike me as especially bright, he was far removed from the sanctimonious bastard he became during his tenure as Vice President. IIRC, it was a couple of years before his "Earth in the Balance" came out.

Am I correct when I recall that the Goracle didn't make the grade in Divinity school? One could wonder if that's why he's invented this other religion of his. Call it the revenge of the Divinity school dropout. He was also a Big Pothead, which, despite wishful thinking of potheads all over the place, is not good for the brain cells, etc.

932 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:23:24pm

re: #918 Bubblehead II

I am going to violate the Iron Fist Rule here and post this. But I have yet to receive a acceptable answer to these this questions. They are are for the most part Yes or No answers

1. God created Man (Adam)
2. Man (Adam) did not have a mate) while all other animals did.
3. God created a woman (Eve) from one of Adams ribs.
4. Adam and Eve messed up and got tossed out of the Garden of Eden.
5. After being tossed out, they had two children. Cain and Able
6. Cain Wasted Able in a dispute
7. Cain was driven from the land.
8. Cain went on to raise a people called the Cainonites?

Question. barring incest and the lack of daughters, How the hell did we become?

Jewish tradition gives a variety of responses to this. The one that pleases me best, personally, is that there was not, in fact, only one couple created, but many. Why are we told only of these two? So, the rabbis explain, that one man would not say to another, "my lineage is greater than yours". We all come from the same origin.

As textual proof, they offer the fact that the creation of man is told twice in Genesis. Once, it is said that God created human beings, "male and female created He them", which might imply many beings. Only later does the text focus on the specific pair whose intimate story we follow.

I also don't think that Cain is mean to be the ancestor of the Canaanites. The pronunciation is quite different in Hebrew. He does, however have descendents, who are discussed in Genesis and are quite interesting.

933 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:23:37pm

re: #929 buzzsawmonkey

Why?

934 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:24:02pm

re: #873 J.S.

You're laughably confused with respect to your "reading" of Genesis...

I quoted the relevant scriptures; interpret them how you wish. But they look pretty clear to me.

935 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:24:19pm
936 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:27:06pm

Eclectic pagan.

Is that someone who refuses to shop at Salvation Army stores?

937 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:27:48pm

Oh, and also, there is at least one subsequent child to Cain and Abel, a boy called Seth.

938 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:28:15pm
939 USBeast  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:29:19pm

Just got here so forgive me if I comment on the original thread.

It is a great relief to come to the end of a very rocky road, take off your shoes, put your feet up and formulate the square root of sweet f**k all. From now on George W. Bush is free to speak his mind on any subject and I predict his thoughts will be interesting. It has often been noted that he is far more articulate in private than in public.

I hope he becomes the Anti-Carter.

940 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:30:17pm

re: #911 SixDegrees

To be fair- I didn't think you were serious about that ending.

I completely agree with your take on conservatism, or what is in my mind "classical liberalism". For me, one of the more troubling aspects of what I've seen on these threads and threads about "social conservatives" if the knee-jerk reaction to the criticism at all.

As an example, I'll use myself- on one of the first ID threads Charles put up, I was called ignorant. Granted, this upset me, but after thinking about the criticism, I decided to educate myself about that which I was under-informed. With some time and study, I came to see the problem with ID both scientifically and legally.

What I don't see from some of the knee-jerks is a similar introspection. They're not looking at the science, they're not looking at the Constitution and they're not regarding the philosophy of conservatism. They would rather feel their religion is being attacked and we're suggesting they leave the party, when neither is the case. It's unfortunate, because I think if many of them would take the time to reflect, they might see things differently, and that is sorely needed if we're going to become a majority as a party instead of getting our asses handed to us in federal elections.

941 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:31:31pm

The heated Buzzsawmonkey-Salamantis discussion raises an interesting point. It is fairly easy to cast aspersions on any foundational religious document by cherry-picking anachronistic quotations and holding them up completely out of context. This method of criticism is generally quite unfair in that it conveniently ignores the subsequent evolution and interpretation which has been applied over the ages to modify and improve upon the original.

The Torah and the New Testament have each been interpreted and improved over time by the tireless application of legal and rational arguments by countless religious scholars, with the result that most mainstream denominations in Judaism and Christianity view their belief systems as dynamic, organic, living things rather than as static and dead ones.

Unfortunately, even modern Islam takes a different view of the Quran, by freezing even the most outdated and repugnant concepts into a mould of completely unchangeable and uncompromising dogma. (Even Atheism has a horse in this race, since it is a negative belief system but a belief system nonetheless, and it may often be seen to be more rigid than its adherents would like to admit.)

To this extent it is unfair to draw analogies between extreme Judaeo-Christian positions which have over time moderated or even disappeared from practice, as opposed to outrageous Islamist dogma which even today is held up as a shining example to be emulated and blindly followed.

As a secular/agnostic Jew, I am of course partial to the more tolerant Judaeo-Christian approach, since under Islamic law I would be considered an apostate deserving of all manner of vile and vicious fatwah.

Carry on.

942 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:33:09pm

If you read Gen 5:4 in most modern translations it says, "MEANWHILE Adam became father to sone and daughters."
We have no idea when the ''meanwhile'' started, but apparently it was before Cain left as he took a wife with him.
And as for ''incest,'' all humans are, in essence, brothers and sisters.
Had they remained in the perfect state we would all know how exactly each of us were related to one another.
Perfect humans had no defects, no need for ''incest'' laws.
Only after sin percolated into the human race for centuries did incest become a problem.

943 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:34:17pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

I have to wonder if Dubya would have been elected had he said this in 2000.

I do also...but considering that he was running against Albore? To be honest, I would have been very concerned, but would not have been able to find any excuse or valid reason to vote for Albore, and would have ended up voting for Bush, with much trepidation.

Interesting that President Bush did not speak out during the past 8 years, and waited til now. To me, that is a plus.

He could have forced it down our throats in his second term, but did not.

Bottom line? I am still in shock after seeing him on ABC, and I honestly cannot decide what he should have done. But I am very grateful that we did not have Gore in office.

And now? I am even more scared about what Hussein has not revealed than I ever would have or could have re Pres. Bush, who is not, in my mind, evil incarnate, like Hussein.

944 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:35:58pm
945 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:36:23pm

re: #719 WrathofG-d

Good mixing of statements there. The Torah never said that the sun circled around the Earth.

Who said he was talking of the Torah? Are you suggesting everyone else is stupid, except you (or as you sometimes say, WE)?

;)

946 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:36:28pm

re: #942 mean Gene

If you read Gen 5:4 in most modern translations it says, "MEANWHILE Adam became father to sone and daughters."
We have no idea when the ''meanwhile'' started, but apparently it was before Cain left as he took a wife with him.
And as for ''incest,'' all humans are, in essence, brothers and sisters.
Had they remained in the perfect state we would all know how exactly each of us were related to one another.
Perfect humans had no defects, no need for ''incest'' laws.
Only after sin percolated into the human race for centuries did incest become a problem.

Don't tell me you're a creationist too?

947 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:36:34pm

re: #943 NY Nana

"And now? I am even more scared about what Hussein has not revealed than I ever would have or could have re Pres. Bush, who is not, in my mind, evil incarnate, like Hussein."

You and me both, Nana.

948 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:37:14pm

re: #900 buzzsawmonkey

You're a moral idiot.

You claimed, somewhere back in one of your Energizer Postings, to have some background in philosophy. If so, you are a disgrace to the field, because you do not trouble to give the source of your own peculiar morality--for, like it or not, your morality, my ex-Baptist friend, is Bible-based--the respect you give whatever "philosophic" texts you choose to admire.

Discussing the nature of Biblical texts with you is akin to trying to teach calculus to a dog.

You're a sectarian talibanic browbeater puerile wannabe. But I remain uncowed by your futile attempts at self-righteous intimidation.

My ba is indeed in philosophy, and I also have graduate level education in comparative religion - something you obviously lack. And my personal morality has many sources, both philosophical and religious. There is nothing wrong about drawing from a wider field.

I'm the one who provided concrete scriptural examples for my contentions. All you have provided is toxic ad-hominem-laced snark entirely devoid of substance.

949 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:39:16pm

re: #2 buzzsawmonkey

Well, he just scratched his chances of re-election.

That reminds us, the proggie left told us that Bush was going to take over the USA forever and ever.

950 Daisy  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:41:09pm

I'm off to watch yet another Hercule Poirot mystery. Night folks.

951 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:41:24pm

re: #917 buzzsawmonkey

Sez you. Who the f*ck died and made you G-d--or even justice of the peace?

So you think that it IS okay to kill people for simply working on a particular day?

Wow. Just wow.

952 Skaught  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:42:44pm

re: #915 Sharmuta

So- if you don't like the definition of a word, you make up your own? Sorry, but words mean things. If you allow for Biblical metaphor, you can't really be a literalist then, can you?

It's not a matter of me not liking the definition of a word and making up my own. That would be silly. As someone else has already mentioned, this topic is not as black and white as some here wish to make it. Everyone I've every known who believed the Bible to be the inspired word of God also believed that Jesus told parables to illustrate points and that Revelations is built on metaphor. So yes, I believe that, other than the non literal portions, the Bible is literally true. :)

In the same way, I believe in "intelligent design" while at the same time recognizing that the process included evolution. Yet apparently the official definition around these parts doesn't allow for that.

Scott

953 USBeast  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:44:42pm

re: #942 mean Gene

If you read Gen 5:4 in most modern translations it says, "MEANWHILE Adam became father to sone and daughters."
We have no idea when the ''meanwhile'' started, but apparently it was before Cain left as he took a wife with him.
And as for ''incest,'' all humans are, in essence, brothers and sisters.
Had they remained in the perfect state we would all know how exactly each of us were related to one another.
Perfect humans had no defects, no need for ''incest'' laws.
Only after sin percolated into the human race for centuries did incest become a problem.

Wait a minute! Adam and Eve left the Garden alone after the original sin which means they left their "perfect state" at the gate. Eve was cursed with bringing children into the world in pain, and she must have been in a world of hurt bringing forth Cain, Abel and the cast of supporting characters that suddenly appear in the Bible.

I believe that it is possible that an entity with powers so vast that it is beyond my feeble intellect to even imagine created this universe. I am certain that the history of that creation is not contained in any religion text on this back-water planet.

954 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:44:47pm
955 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:44:56pm

re: #914 buzzsawmonkey

You, like Yashmak, are attempting--stupidly or disingenuously--to suggest that I have said that there are "no ethical systems" except for those based on the Bible. At no point have I ever made such a claim, and I am not making it now. If you, or Yashmak, or anyone else, claims so, you are either a very poor reader or intentionally lying.

I suppose I could go back somewhere and find it, but I do recall that you once had some rude words to the effect that I, as an atheist, should kiss your Christian ass in gratitude for teaching me ethics.

Well, you are quite right that I was raised in a Christian culture and no doubt learned from that, but I also realized very early on that it didn''t have a monopoly on morals, nor a valid reason for making such claims. The rest is history, and you are welcome to your faith, but believe me, in the time I have been here, you come across as far more intolerant and dare I say, hateful, than those you sometimes rail against. Chill out.

956 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:45:45pm

re: #926 buzzsawmonkey

And I am saying that Mr. The-World's-Religions-Are-My-Personal-Cafeteria doesn't get the right to pronounce like that.

I get just as much right to say that killing someone for working on a particular day is wrong that a member of any religion does.

Religion is not the sole source of morality. In fact, religions have derived their moral laws from the societies in which they began, or appropriated them from other religions that did the same.

When it comes down to brass tacks, we are our own moral sources. Whether we acknowledge that fact or not.

957 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:47:24pm

re: #941 Spare O'Lake

Unfortunately, even modern Islam takes a different view of the Quran, by freezing even the most outdated and repugnant concepts into a mould of completely unchangeable and uncompromising dogma. (Even Atheism has a horse in this race, since it is a negative belief system but a belief system nonetheless, and it may often be seen to be more rigid than its adherents would like to admit.)

This is why The Bab (1260AH/May 23, 1844) and Baha'u'llah have come to humankind, invested with divine authority to RESTATE for this Day anything that is worth keeping from the revelations of all past cycles, and STATE what is needed NOW, which could not be given to humankind THEN, Spare O'

958 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:48:33pm

re: #947 Daisy

Daisy,

I think that we have millions of Americans who feel the same way, including those who actually voted for The One, and now have a very severe case of voters' remorse.

I would bet that if the election were held again? McCain/Palin would win.

And with the mess in Chicago? I hope that the truth re Hussein's involvement will come out, but then we would be left with 'Plugs' Biden...a Hobson's choice, if ever there was one.

/Fasten your seat belts. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

959 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:48:45pm

re: #935 buzzsawmonkey

Not enough, apparently, for you to adopt one of them. And since all of these moral codes rely for their tenets on the other tenets--like an arch, each stone supporting the other--your decision to randomly rip a stone or two out of each moral code as it happens to please you is an act of moral vandalism.

Wrong. One does not have to embrace the Old Testament injunction not to suffer a witch to live in order to embrace its injunction against committing murder.

960 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:49:00pm

re: #948 Salamantis


My husband has a degree in Philosophy from Grove City College and would eat you alive in debate.

Also has a degree in Economics and conducts symphony orchestras.

He's an eclectic Christian.

961 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:49:17pm
962 Chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:49:37pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

creationism

1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, esp. in the first chapter of Genesis.

Creationists reject evolution and adhere to Biblical literalism.

Thanks for the definitions. Sometimes I think we forget what we are talking about. Reading those definitions, it struck me that nothing in either of them says anything about teaching creationism in public high school biology classes.

So really there's nothing inherently objectionable about creationism any more than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, atheism, secular humanism or whatever. What's objectionable is not creationism, but introducing it into public school science curricula. It's not only objectionable to do that, but for nearly three years now it's obviously been unlawful (Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School Board).

By the same token, teaching creationism in private schools, is, I assume, constitutionally protected under the First Amendment.

I suspect that not all creationists, Christian or otherwise, want their religious beliefs taught in public school as science. Our quarrel should not be with them; they deserve, and we should accord them, as much respect as we give to adherents of other faiths.

I think we lose our way, and cause needless division in Lizard Land, when we cast this debate as a conflict between science and religion and end up disparaging both.

963 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:49:53pm

re: #936 rightymouse

Eclectic pagan.

Is that someone who refuses to shop at Salvation Army stores?

Nope. I'll shop at any store in which I can find good merchadise at a decent price.

964 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:50:42pm
965 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:51:59pm

re: #953 USBeast

You seem to be seeing what Buzz AND Salamantis are dealing with, among other things, namely the changes in everyday words that have changed original meanings ('... in Jesus' day...', '...one day with God is as a thousand years...') because of the evolution of humankind.

We are no longer a spoken-language-centered, agrarian, illiterate world governed by priests and the kingly caste.

We are no longer bound by news moving at the speed of horse or change at the speed of seasons, USB...

966 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:52:27pm

re: #959 Salamantis

Wrong. One does not have to embrace the Old Testament injunction not to suffer a witch to live in order to embrace its injunction against committing murder.

I'm a relentlessly cheerful mood this evening.

Rashi, the great medieval commentator, looks at the lines you're referring to, and translates them as: "you shall not enable the livelihood of a witch/necromancer". In other words, it's bad bunk, don't pay them for it, thereby enabling them to live by such means.

The question of whether you can read your horoscope in the paper if you would have bought it for the news and book reviews anyway is, as far as I am concerned, still open to debate.

967 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:52:36pm

re: #961 Iron Fist

And the whole of the Law shall be "do what thou wilt"?

I don't think he meant that. If I am reading right, he meant that we have to determine for ourselves what we believe in. In that sense, we must be our own moral sources.

968 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:52:40pm
969 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:53:30pm

re: #941 Spare O'Lake

The heated Buzzsawmonkey-Salamantis discussion raises an interesting point. It is fairly easy to cast aspersions on any foundational religious document by cherry-picking anachronistic quotations and holding them up completely out of context. This method of criticism is generally quite unfair in that it conveniently ignores the subsequent evolution and interpretation which has been applied over the ages to modify and improve upon the original.

The Torah and the New Testament have each been interpreted and improved over time by the tireless application of legal and rational arguments by countless religious scholars, with the result that most mainstream denominations in Judaism and Christianity view their belief systems as dynamic, organic, living things rather than as static and dead ones.

Unfortunately, even modern Islam takes a different view of the Quran, by freezing even the most outdated and repugnant concepts into a mould of completely unchangeable and uncompromising dogma. (Even Atheism has a horse in this race, since it is a negative belief system but a belief system nonetheless, and it may often be seen to be more rigid than its adherents would like to admit.)

To this extent it is unfair to draw analogies between extreme Judaeo-Christian positions which have over time moderated or even disappeared from practice, as opposed to outrageous Islamist dogma which even today is held up as a shining example to be emulated and blindly followed.

As a secular/agnostic Jew, I am of course partial to the more tolerant Judaeo-Christian approach, since under Islamic law I would be considered an apostate deserving of all manner of vile and vicious fatwah.

Carry on.

But it is eminently fair to remind those who insist that the Bible is the literal, infallible and inerrant Word of God what some of its scriptures actually say.

970 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:53:36pm
971 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:55:08pm

re: #963 Salamantis

Nope. I'll shop at any store in which I can find good merchadise at a decent price.

Honey, you are free to do whatever you want. We do live in a free society for which I am grateful. And yes, it's one that Christians had the wisdom and foresight to include people of all faiths and non-faiths.

Peace.

972 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:55:17pm
973 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:56:21pm

re: #964 buzzsawmonkey

I've actually found Salamantis to be right more often then wrong. He's also quite fierce in argument (as I found out first hand).

At this point, I'd like to suggest a truce in this fight. Both of you are good LGF members and I'd like to keep the green-on-green fire to a minimum. Can we broker a peace treaty?

974 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:56:37pm

re: #960 rightymouse

My husband has a degree in Philosophy from Grove City College and would eat you alive in debate.

Also has a degree in Economics and conducts symphony orchestras.

He's an eclectic Christian.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Not knowing your husband, I lack the grounds by means of which to evaluate its veracity.

975 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:56:55pm
976 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:57:28pm

re: #970 buzzsawmonkey

Do what thou wilt? That sounds like the Florists' Code.

C'mon, Buzz, its high-poetic English, the kind of language writers use to show utmost respect and adoration for The Best-Beloved...

/still, that WAS a good riposte, would that thou wouldst wilt erelong...

977 cincinnati_kid37  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:57:37pm

Regardless what you think of religion, the center of reality of life on Earth is the struggle between good and evil.

To me, evil people are those who abuse others to achieve their own desires.

978 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:59:12pm

re: #977 cincinnati_kid37

Oh, so YOU'RE a Zoroastrian Manichaen, too? Okay... :D

979 J.S.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:59:17pm

re: #964 buzzsawmonkey

(actually, given a certain someone's grotesque misreadings of certain texts -- well, then, it's "to be expected." In fact, in a twisted/perverted way, it's what a "morality" would require given such "understandings." as i laugh...too bad i can't do that upside-down script thingy... )

980 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:59:30pm

I hav to go. Just received a call Family member has passes away. Wish to continue the drate but I ahbeve to go

981 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 5:59:52pm
982 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:00:16pm

re: #975 Iron Fist

It's a somewhat controversial, um, theologian.

Jeremiah Wright? /Kidding! I know it's either Stan or one his minions.

983 Caboose  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:03:19pm

re: #314 CalBear84

Let's not forget Hugh G. Rection...

Buster Hyman
Red Ruffensore
Ophelia Tytz
Jacque Strappe
(thank you, National Lampoon High School Yearbook parody from the '70's)

984 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:06:49pm

re: #917 buzzsawmonkey

Killing anybody, Jew or Gentile, with warning or without, and with court approval or without, for working on a particular day is wrong.

Sez you. Who the f*ck died and made you G-d--or even justice of the peace?

I'm loath to get into the middle of this pissing match, but are you sure you really wanted to respond to this statement of Salamantis' like that?

I don't think it's a great idea to defend killing people for working on the Sabbath.

985 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:08:52pm

re: #964 buzzsawmonkey

Hardly, sweets. You've offered nothing except a discourse on the level of the internet nonsense that--waaay upthread--started this exchange.

I have simply asserted that no religion or scripture is above principled criticism, and that no religious believer has the right not to be offended by criticisms that cut to the quick.

I make no claims to being a talmid chacham--a Torah scholar--but I have forgotten more about the Biblical laws than you will ever know. It's sad, really; you appear to be an intelligent man, and you've been known to post some interesting things. I even agree with you on the necessity of keeping religion and science separate--from my point of view, for the sake of both. But the rancid bigotry with which you regard the source from which the choices of your cafeteria morality flows is a sad and ugly flaw.

So now it is rancid bigotry to quote believers' own scriptures back to them and to ask 'do you really adhere to this'? And you continue to insist that my morality flows solely from the Judeo-Christian tradition, after I have not only denied this, but provided examples of other sources, both religious and philosophical. You begin to resemble a brick wall.

You impose upon anything which smacks of the Biblical an intolerance which would have you busting a blood vessel, were the same intolerance applied to your Science God. Without in any way endorsing any limitation of science, I have to say that the highly selective hatred which you exhibit is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen, and which, should it raise its head in the political arena, deserves to be smacked down as a modern-day Inquisition in a lab coat.

Nope. Empirical science is not irretriveably shackled to ancient dogmas like revealed religions are, when literally embraced. What is truly ugly is your bloviating self-righteous umbrage when one possesses the unutterable temerity and gall to dare to criticize quoted passages in what you manifestly consider to be the 'wrong' religion to criticize. I hate to have to inform you of this, because you should already know it, but all faiths have their flaws.

You still think that I'm an ugly rancid bigot for saying there's no just or ethical reason to kill anyone for working on a particular day? If you do, that says nothing whatsoever about me but a whole lot about you. And what it has to say is far from complimentary.

986 cincinnati_kid37  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:10:56pm

re: #978 Karridine

Oh, so YOU'RE a Zoroastrian Manichaen, too? Okay... :D

Well, guess that's for you to decide, but in my opinion, religion doesn't even need to be part of the conversation. I'd like to think that if religion didn't even exist, that I and others would still choose to live a life without taking the life of others or harming them in other ways.

987 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:11:08pm

re: #974 Salamantis

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Not knowing your husband, I lack the grounds by means of which to evaluate its veracity.

And you, of course, are entitled to your opinions. That's what is so great about a free society.

988 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:12:40pm

re: #961 Iron Fist

And the whole of the Law shall be "do what thou wilt"?

"If it harms none, do as thou wilt." This injunction seems rather laissez faire upon cursory inspection, but upon deeper perusal it entails a strict discipline. One is enjoined not to harm oneself, or others, or the biosphere we share.

989 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:12:51pm

re: #942 mean Gene

If you read Gen 5:4 in most modern translations it says, "MEANWHILE Adam became father to sone and daughters."
We have no idea when the ''meanwhile'' started, but apparently it was before Cain left as he took a wife with him.
And as for ''incest,'' all humans are, in essence, brothers and sisters.
Had they remained in the perfect state we would all know how exactly each of us were related to one another.
Perfect humans had no defects, no need for ''incest'' laws.
Only after sin percolated into the human race for centuries did incest become a problem.

Why must you take this delightful and meaningful part of the creation myth and demand that it be understood literally. It is such a waste to insist on that interpretation.
As a political aside: my family have been strong Baptist for decades. Most of the family follows my father's path in politics. They would gladly support a classically liberal candidate or even a relative conservative, but they will not support any one from the religious right/anti-intellectual/anti-science wing of the GOP. Dad finally split from one Baptist convention and joined another over the anti-gay positions of the looney rightwing religious groups. There is a political price to be paid for aligning with that portion of conservative America.

990 USBeast  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:13:20pm

re: #965 Karridine

You seem to be seeing what Buzz AND Salamantis are dealing with, among other things, namely the changes in everyday words that have changed original meanings ('... in Jesus' day...', '...one day with God is as a thousand years...') because of the evolution of humankind.

We are no longer a spoken-language-centered, agrarian, illiterate world governed by priests and the kingly caste.

We are no longer bound by news moving at the speed of horse or change at the speed of seasons, USB...

There are laughable things on both sides of the argument. On the religious side we have the insistence that the Bible version of Creation must be accepted as fact in spite of overwhelming evidence (which they have obviously never studied) that it just ain't so. On the atheist side we have the argument that, if the Bible version of Creation in incorrect, there was no Creator.

If I was capable of contemplating a God capable of the creation of the Universe I would imagine that entity laughing its ass off.

991 cincinnati_kid37  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:13:51pm

re: #978 Karridine

Oh, so YOU'RE a Zoroastrian Manichaen, too? Okay... :D

PS - I'd be more of a Rational Weltanschauung type of person if we bring religion into it.

[Link: www.users.bigpond.com...]

992 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:16:02pm

re: #968 buzzsawmonkey

That would be highly amusing, since I am not and have never been a Christian, nor ever claimed to be.

This suggests either that your memory is faulty, or that you, like poor, hate-wrenched Sal, are permitting your childhood traumas to cloud your perceptions.

This would seem to be a shining, sterling exemplar of psychological projection. It is you who is coming off as hate-wrenched, not I.

That being the case, I won't inquire as to your childhood traumas. My childhood was normal and happy.

993 guy_philly  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:17:02pm

And you wonder why Romney did not win the Republican primary.

994 J.S.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:17:36pm

There's a quote of Paul Johnson's in "History of the Jews." I don't have the text at hand...basically it's about hypocrites who "tch, tch, tch" about certain passages from scripture (typically it's lifted from Jewish scripture, out of context, and totally misread), then proceed to state their revulsion at the "harsh" language...all the while forgetting that their "fastidiousness" for the "spilling of blood" comes directly from the laws of Moses...(I'll have to look up the text, and the quote, it was far better worded than my pathetic paraphrase..)

995 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:19:46pm

re: #978 Karridine

How is Bangkok tonight?

996 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:20:06pm

re: #972 buzzsawmonkey

See, here Sal starts trying to say that I have said anything at all about the "literal, infallible, and inerrant Word of G-d" when I have specifically refused to argue on those terms.

That is how you can tell that he knows his arguments suck.

You took major umbrage that I would dare to criticize the literal meanings of scriptural passages. But in doing so, I was implicitly criticizing those who yet adhere to their literal interpretation. And there are many of them out there. And they wanna teach your kids their version of religion in public high school. That would morph public schools into Biblical literalist madrassas.

997 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:20:55pm

re: #968 buzzsawmonkey

That would be highly amusing, since I am not and have never been a Christian, nor ever claimed to be.

This suggests either that your memory is faulty, or that you, like poor, hate-wrenched Sal, are permitting your childhood traumas to cloud your perceptions.

Perhaps my memory is flawed. Perhaps I made an assumption about your religion, but your comments were real and to the point stated whether it be Christian or Muslim or Jewish or whatever. I really don't care what religion you claim, but I do know that it sounds far more intolerant than those you claim to defend it against, myself included.

Truth be said, you don't sound like yourself tonight. Take that as condescending if you wish, but I don't think we can prove anything further in this thread.

998 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:23:14pm
999 guy_philly  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:23:44pm

wow! I looked at the bios of some people on this thread, and I see that some have a whole lot of "karma." then I looked at my own bio and find that I am a bit needy in that category. Can I buy some "karma credits" or do some of you people who have lots of karma want to spread the karma wealth!?

1000 guy_philly  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:25:55pm

Maybe you could "send an instant karma to me and initial it with loving care"!?

1001 guy_philly  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:27:20pm

Wow! "1000" ... now THAT's Karma! Too bad nobody is around to see it!

1002 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:27:50pm

re: #998 Iron Fist

As opposed to those who would morph public schools into Secular Leftist madrassas? Because that is the side that is winning now.

I don't favor either. Neither atheism nor theism should be topical suibjects in public high school science classes. Teach the empirical science there.

On the other had, maybe you're equating evolutionary theory with secular leftism. In which case I would have to disagree with you, as politics and science are two different things, just like religion and science are.

1003 MacGregor  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:28:29pm

re: #998 Iron Fist
Definitely a secular madrassa where my kids go to school. Latest: Teacher shows Blackhawk Down to kids and tells them it was Bush's fault. Sheesh.

1004 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:28:56pm

re: #998 Iron Fist

As opposed to those who would morph public schools into Secular Leftist madrassas? Because that is the side that is winning now.

If you wish to alter the leftist movement of Public education (a good project in my mind) the way to do it is to insist on excellence in English, math and Science education; and stop the Foo-Foo PC and other crap that goes on. You can get parental support for that. But you can not succeed by instituting I.D. or demanding prayer in school, or demanding that the 10 commandments be posted or any of the religious Rights ideas.

1005 USBeast  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:34:59pm

I am not a scientist. I am not a theologian. With those disclaimers I would like to ask a question.

Given the vastness of the universe, the forces, elements and energies involved, how large a book would be required to accommodate the title: "How I Did It by God"?

Second question: How many eons would it take for our best minds to read and understand it?

1006 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:36:16pm

re: #981 buzzsawmonkey

On science issues, Sal is very good. Moral/religious, not so much. And I'm sure we won't agree on those.

But at this point, at least as much if not more has been said as needs to be; we either devolve into complete invective (which could be interesting on both sides, I have to say) or start arguing abstruse Biblical points in detail--both of which are more time-consuming than necessary.

So yes, I am done--and I clear the field for the up- and down-dingers to come out, like the women in Kipling stories who, after the battle, come out to mutilate the dead and wounded.

I wrote a short essay on ethics here:

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

1007 MacGregor  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:37:49pm

re: #1004 Haverwilde

I've found we must arm the kids' minds to stand up to leftist teachers. My baby girl does it all the time. Doesn't hurt that her GPA is 4.3.

1008 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:39:44pm
1009 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:51:53pm
1010 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 6:57:53pm

re: #1009 buzzsawmonkey

Yes it's late, Ive called a taxi for you, and for me, but on your way home you might contemplate what it is that makes atheist literalists a target of your contempt.

Trust me, atheism is not largely based on reading any of the scriptures and knowledge, or lack, thereof has little bearing on the position.

Goodnight

1011 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:00:57pm

re: #1002 Salamantis

My son's science teacher had the kids in her class write to the Governor of Ohio to sign some governor agreement against logging. She also had the children send letters to the Brazilian government against rainforest deforestation.

There is political activism going on in the science classrooms that has nothing to do with 'organized' religion.

How do you suggest we combat this?

1012 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:01:23pm

re: #1008 buzzsawmonkey

So called "cafeteria selection" does not in fact "jettison the whole". It chooses those parts that still are amenable to contemporary application, while rejecting those parts that are not. This is the nature of the 'wheat and chaff' exercise.

I also contend that it is an unfair canard to accuse me of "atheist literalism" when the thrust of my contention has been to demonstrate why the biblical literalism of others is morally untenable.

Lastly, the idea of applying retrospective modifications in order to render repugnant scriptural edicts into "dead letters" is only engaged in because the reverence in which the text in which they appear is held has precluded them from being repudiated directly. This indirect device may be somewhat effective, and it is perhaps the best that can be societally done, considering the aforementioned reverence, but it is still not universally effective, as Christian Dominionists still aspire to topple the US Constitution and replace it with the Bible, literally interpreted. And while most of the people agitating for the teaching of religious dogmas in public high school science classes do not share this aspiration, they are being used by those who do embrace it as a means to achieve their theocratic ends.

What is arrogant and foolish is to call those who opt for the more direct route of submitting Biblical injunctions to moral scrutiny and accepting or rejecting them as written arrogant fools.

I do note that, in practice, horrendous actions have been Biblically justified, chapter and verse, throughout the history of the last two millennia. The Inquisitions are only one example of many.

1013 J.S.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:02:16pm

From the text, "Biblical Literacy", p. 428:

The Sabbath is one of the Bible's revolutionary innovations. We know of no society prior to the Torah that mandated a day on which human beings were to refrain from their normal labor. Indeed, as ancient societies tended to regard people as worthwhile only while they were working. Leading Roman thinkers ridiculed the Sabbath, citing it as proof of Jewish laziness. Seneca, the first-century Roman Stoic, wrote, 'To spend every seventh day without doing anything means to lose a seventh part of life, besides suffering loss in pressing matters from such idleness.' (the less courteous Plutarch regarded the Sabbath as one of the Jews' sordid habits, while the antisemitic Tacitus saw it as another of the Jews' 'sinister and shameful' customs.) In the ancient world, the Bible's struggle to establish the principle that human beings have value even when not producing was a difficult one...[snip] To this day, a commitment to Sabbath observance (though levels of observance differ) characterizes all Jewish religious denominations: How could it not, given its central role in the Ten Commandments? Indeed no Jewish community has survived more than a few generations without observance of the Sabbath..."


(the "harsh language" with respect to violators of the Sabbath was for a reason -- that was to, among other things, impress upon the reader that Sabbath violation was not to be taken lightly...and, one needn't read the passage as "literal" but as an admonition to prevent the death of Judaism.)

1014 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:03:32pm

re: #1011 rightymouse

My son's science teacher had the kids in her class write to the Governor of Ohio to sign some governor agreement against logging. She also had the children send letters to the Brazilian government against rainforest deforestation.

There is political activism going on in the science classrooms that has nothing to do with 'organized' religion.

How do you suggest we combat this?

By working to pass School Board resolutions prohibiting teacher-organized political activism of any type in public schools.

1015 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:03:43pm

re: #986 cincinnati_kid37

Hey, I was laughing WITH ya, Kid! :D

The continued interplay of Good vs Lack-of-Good is ongoing and important, with OR without 'religion'...

1016 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:04:45pm
1017 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:06:23pm

re: #1013 J.S.

In the early decades of the New World here, people were often fined for working on the Sabbath. I remember reading about one case of a woman being fined for knitting on Sunday.

We've come a long way, baby.

1018 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:06:35pm

re: #1008 buzzsawmonkey

I have to emphasize that my "defense" of such things as a death penalty for Sabbath-breaking is based on the knowledge that these things were intentionally rendered dead letters by "believing literalists" thousands of years ago.

Okay, but even by your own narration, they were in force for at least several centuries before that.

Either there was an omnibenevolent deity who ordered such things, or there wasn't.

I find it a little hard to swallow, myself.

1019 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:10:20pm
1020 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:10:20pm

re: #1014 Salamantis

By working to pass School Board resolutions prohibiting teacher-organized political activism of any type in public schools.

Public schools? Good luck with that. We'd be the problem, not the teacher.

Fortunately, he goes to a private school and we asked his teacher to stop using the children as her political advocates. It helped that we know the head of the school who would be appalled. And she was appropriately mortified when we protested. I doubt she'll do that again.

1021 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:10:20pm

re: #954 Iron Fist

It's interesting, too, that another "retired" political leader got into the environmental advocacy biz: Gorbachev. Must be gold in them there ills.

1022 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:11:15pm

re: #1018 Occasional Reader

It is only too easy for us, now, to judge the requirements of society THEN, and find them lacking. We have a critical faculty, a rational capacity, but to second-guess societal needs THEN in light of what we think we know NOW, does us a disservice, OR...

1023 theheat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:13:55pm

I think the bigger issue is, just why the hell anyone really worries about keeping this group happy, if only by making them believe you believe in the same horseshit they do ('cept you really don't). Maybe it's because when they feel they've been deceived (again) their tantrums are so entertaining?

I'd like to see their political relevance reduced to zero; take their voodoo and fairy tales and whining and crazy museums and just *** the hell off.

As long as politicians cater to them, they are empowered, even when politicians do so falsely. The whole vicious cycle makes me retch, it's so distasteful.

1024 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:18:40pm

re: #1016 buzzsawmonkey

You began here by leaping in to defend the bozo atheist literalism of a moronic internet screed that's been rattling around for close to ten years.

Admit that it is the work of an illiterate boob, and we can talk.

What that 'moronic internet screed' did was to lampoon specific ancient Biblical injunctions that would be considered bizarre, nonsensical, and/or morally wrong by most ethical, rational and reasonable people these days, by asking pointed questions as to the consequences and ramifications of obeying them. Its point is that the modern application of blanket Biblical literalism is quite untenable. I think it succeeds in making that point.

I did not see anything in it that ridicules those who draw moral inspiration from the overall spirit of the text while refusing to obey its every single pronouncement to the letter. If you did, please point it out.

1025 pbird  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:19:13pm

re: #961 Iron Fist

And the whole of the Law shall be "do what thou wilt"?

Heh.

1026 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #1022 Karridine

It is only too easy for us, now, to judge the requirements of society THEN,

"Society"? Whoa. I thought we were talking about an omnipotent deity here.

1027 CantonJim  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:20:25pm

And to think I had deemed the man MIA for the last 2 years. I'll still never forgive him or his Father.

Is there no Reagan out there anywhere?!?!?

1028 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:21:48pm

re: #961 Iron Fist

And the whole of the Law shall be "do what thou wilt"?

Considering that Wilt Chamberlain claimed that he slept with 20,000 women, I always thought the injunction was "do as thou, Wilt!".

Sounds interesting, if exhausting.

1029 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:22:19pm

Wow. What a thread.

Salute to Charles for making this house stand.

Salute to the participants.

I don't know any other website where such dynamic and intelligent exchanges routinely occur.

1030 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:24:46pm
1031 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:25:15pm

re: #1026 Occasional Reader

"Society"? Whoa. I thought we were talking about an omnipotent deity here.

... Yup, One Who declared certain actions more conducive of social cohesion and other actions less-conducive of social cohesion... that was how the Commandments worked, wasn't it? And some of those declared right-or-wrong ways-of-being were also more-or-less conducive to helping individuals develop their knowledge and love while in the act of obeying or disobeying said Commandments...

I thunk...

1032 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:25:25pm
1033 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:25:58pm

re: #1028 Occasional Reader

Considering that Wilt Chamberlain claimed that he slept with 20,000 women, I always thought the injunction was "do as thou, Wilt!".

Sounds interesting, if exhausting.

It does occur to me, as a woman, that if I claimed to have slept with 20,000 men, that 'interesting' and 'exhausting' would not be the operative words here.

1034 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:28:09pm

re: #1030 buzzsawmonkey

You want the Bible to be "inerrant,"

Er... I "want" that? Where did I say I "want" it?

There are people who maintain that position. It's simply a fact, however much you dislike it.

1035 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:29:13pm

re: #1033 rightymouse

It does occur to me, as a woman, that if I claimed to have slept with 20,000 men, that 'interesting' and 'exhausting' would not be the operative words here.

Man OR woman, to have had sex with 1,000 people a year for 20 years is admitting a serious character weakness...

/not you, Mouse...

1036 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:29:40pm

re: #1031 Karridine

Yup, One Who declared certain actions more conducive of social cohesion and other actions less-conducive of social cohesion

So he just HAD to have people killed for working on Sunday, with regret, because he had no other choice?

Well then... he's not omnipotent.

Sorry, campers. It doesn't add up.

1037 Karridine  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:30:15pm

re: #1036 Occasional Reader

As you wish...

1038 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:32:44pm
1039 cincinnati_kid37  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:32:46pm

re: #1015 Karridine

Hey, I was laughing WITH ya, Kid! :D

The continued interplay of Good vs Lack-of-Good is ongoing and important, with OR without 'religion'...

I just wanted my comment to be transparent. Thanks.

1040 solomonpanting  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:33:53pm

re: #1028 Occasional Reader

Considering that Wilt Chamberlain claimed that he slept with 20,000 women, I always thought the injunction was "do as thou, Wilt!".

Sounds interesting, if exhausting.

He wasn't called The Big Dipper for nothing.

1041 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:34:24pm

re: #1038 buzzsawmonkey

it seemed clear you have an investment in that position

Well, clearly, someone here is engaging in projection. But it ain't me.

1042 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:35:54pm
1043 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:36:37pm

re: #1035 Karridine

Man OR woman, to have had sex with 1,000 people a year for 20 years is admitting a serious character weakness...

/not you, Mouse...

I tried to do the math and gave up. Boggled my mind.

Wilt Chamberlain had the character flaw/weakness. That's a very sad life. It lacks meaning is what that says to me. Momentary gratification is just that. Momentary.

Joy is more elusive. It can't be gained by those who are shallow, look just for the moment and have never seen G-d's hand around them.

I probably should quit for the night. :)

1044 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:37:03pm

re: #1030 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, hell--one last brief comment.

OR, you're engaging in the same "damned if you do/damned if you don't" reflex we so often condemn here in the moobat area of the population.

You want the Bible to be "inerrant," fixed, unchanging, etc.--but consider it outmoded, primitive, brutal. You want "literalism," by believers, to cleave to the most restrictive and/or brutal-appearing passages in it, as this would make dismissal of it easy.

Sorry. It's not that convenient. As it says in Pirkei Avot, "Turn it, turn it, and turn it again, for everything is in it." The Bible, like the Constitution, may have confusing, or seemingly outmoded, sections--but in the event of interpretation it adapts to/is adapted by society, without being jettisoned.

Yes, there are brutal aspects to it. Most of those have been obviated--an obviation that was done millennia ago. Demanding that the Bible be as brutal as you want it to be just doesn't cut it.

It is not I who demand that the Bible be inerrant, fixed and unchanging. It is a religiously imperialist minority who insist upon it. Some of them also want it to be supreme here.

I do not dismiss the Bible as a whole. I find much to be admired and emulated in it. I also find some of its passages to be empirically incorrect, and others to be ethically objectionable. And I can hold both of these positions simultaneously without contradiction. It's not an 'all or nothing' thing.

It would be nice if the text could be amended or have passages repealed without removal, as the Amendments do for the US Constitution. But that is an unrealizeable aspiration, even though Thomas Jefferson did once try to do something of the sort.

1045 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:38:39pm

re: #1042 buzzsawmonkey

I may have misread your post; comes of associating with evil companions.

Huh?

1046 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:40:21pm

re: #1043 rightymouse

I tried to do the math and gave up. Boggled my mind.

Mad TV or some such program once had a pretty hilarious sketch based on that very premise. Basically, Wilt saying goodbye, I'll never forget these moments we had together, then sending the young lady out past the line waiting at his door.

1047 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:40:52pm

Good night.

1048 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:42:14pm

re: #1036 Occasional Reader

So he just HAD to have people killed for working on Sunday, with regret, because he had no other choice?

Well then... he's not omnipotent.

Sorry, campers. It doesn't add up.

Are we still talking about God and the Bible here?

Honest to Pete, we still have people today who project what they THINK are God's intentions, on society. It was no different back then. And they didn't have the internet.

1049 solomonpanting  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:43:12pm

re: #1043 rightymouse

I tried to do the math and gave up. Boggled my mind.

That's, on average, almost three a day for twenty years.

1050 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:43:44pm

re: #1046 Occasional Reader

Mad TV or some such program once had a pretty hilarious sketch based on that very premise. Basically, Wilt saying goodbye, I'll never forget these moments we had together, then sending the young lady out past the line waiting at his door.


I'm sure it was hilarious.

1051 Joan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:44:04pm

re: #771 quickjustice

Gore got the mine, we get the shaft.

1052 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:44:41pm

re: #1038 buzzsawmonkey

Well, since you are discussing--from the atheist standpoint--the issue of "inerrancy," it seemed clear you have an investment in that position, from the nonbeliever standpoint.

I have not been arguing "inerrancy" at any juncture here; I have, however, been discussing respect, consistency and sophistication when dealing with the text--all noticeably lacking in Sal & Co.

Certain morally objectionable or empirically incorrect text passages should not be granted a respect that they do not earn from their content, by osmosis from the rest of an otherwise laudatory document. I find certain admonitions to murder people of other faiths and people who want to work on prohibited days to be inconsisted with an overall injunction not to murder, as I do not think that the offenses of religious or labor freedom morally warrant exemptions from a prohibition against murder.

I do not consider it unsophisticated to take these positions.

1053 sleepyone  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:45:03pm

re: #777 Tigger2005

OT, this Tom Cruise movie "Valkyrie" looks good. It's been a while since there's been a good WW2 movie.

Hey, I just redesigned the paperback edition of that book (it's been in print for some time but the cover was just re-packaged). The original title was To The Bitter End by Hans Bernd Gisevius but the publisher retitled it to tie in with the movie.

1054 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:46:29pm

re: #1049 solomonpanting

That's, on average, almost three a day for twenty years.

Should we really believe him? My husband would be dead.

/I say Wilt nailed a skank one day and made up the rest.

1055 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:46:35pm

re: #929 buzzsawmonkey

No.

You sir, are being quite the dickhead today. Too bad, I usually enjoy your posts, and your puns. There must have been a 2 for 1 sale on Urinated Cranky Flakes down at the deli.

1056 sleepyone  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:47:49pm

re: #1053 sleepyone

Hey, I just redesigned the paperback edition of that book (it's been in print for some time but the cover was just re-packaged). The original title was To The Bitter End by Hans Bernd Gisevius but the publisher retitled it to tie in with the movie.

I guess I should clarify, the movie Valkyrie is based on the book To The Bitter End. I don't know if that was clear in my previous post/boast.

1057 solomonpanting  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:50:24pm

re: #1054 rightymouse

Should we really believe him? My husband would be dead.

/I say Wilt nailed a skank one day and made up the rest.

It does seem ludicrous.

1058 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:52:05pm

re: #1055 Alberta Oil Peon

You sir, are being quite the dickhead today. Too bad, I usually enjoy your posts, and your puns. There must have been a 2 for 1 sale on Urinated Cranky Flakes down at the deli.


Excuse me, but the one being a dickhead isn't Buzzsaw. Am seeing plenty of Cranky Flakes, but not him.

1059 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:53:04pm

re: #1057 solomonpanting

It does seem ludicrous.

No kidding.

1060 solomonpanting  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 7:55:05pm

re: #1059 rightymouse

No kidding.

One would have to be a Saudi oil shiek or a mullah to command that degree of service.

1061 rightymouse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:02:52pm

re: #1060 solomonpanting

One would have to be a Saudi oil shiek or a mullah to command that degree of service.

Oh, lawdy.

Speaking of bedtime...it's off to the quilted comfort of my marital bed for me.

Later.

1062 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:04:48pm
1063 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:14:32pm

So I finally got through all of Ben Stein's "Expelled".

Well what can I say? A tenth rate production at every level. Ghastly use of music, really stupid use of movie clips to illustrate alleged 'points' and a gobsmackingly lying Ben Stein droning out one tired creationist talking point after another. Not to mention the peppering of out of context clips of scientists who were misled into taking part in this shoddy exercise in idiotarian propaganda. Gaaah!

1064 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:38:37pm

re: #1063 Jimmah

Had you known about the Hadamar Institute before you saw the film?

I didn't. For me that made the film worthwhile. I am not a creationist, but I'm not particularly agitated by them either. There are a lot of other folks that worry me a lot more.

Since you just saw it, did Ben Stein advocate that ID be taught in public schools? If he did, I would take issue with him on that.

1065 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:42:25pm

re: #1058 rightymouse

Excuse me, but the one being a dickhead isn't Buzzsaw. Am seeing plenty of Cranky Flakes, but not him.

Then how do you explain these words and passages, drawn solely from buzzsawmonkey's posting on this thread?

atheist literalists

arrogant fools

ignorant

intolerant

poor, hate-wrenched

rancid bigotry

sad and ugly flaw

moral vandalism

Mr. The-World's-Religions-Are-My-Personal-Cafeteria
Sez you. Who the f*ck died and made you G-d--or even justice of the peace?
either a very poor reader or intentionally lying.
stupidly or disingenuously

You're a moral idiot.
Discussing the nature of Biblical texts with you is akin to trying to teach calculus to a dog.
bigots here
blatantly do not have a child's understanding
their own paltry and nonexistent scholarship
You do have reading problems, don't you?
So what the hell is your problem?
lying hypocrite, and knows it
you are clearly unfitted to engage in it

you are engaging in lies and in false equivalencies

mere demagoguery
This will, of course, excite your (increasingly obviously bigoted) derision

shocks your ignorant sensibilities

cleaving to the Sweet Valley High reading level, you wouldn't know this.

That is arrogance; that is stupidity; and that is bigotry.

a complete and utter ass wholly in love with his own ego

Sal: And this is only a sample. There are more.

1066 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:54:17pm

re: #1008 buzzsawmonkey

No, I don't support killing people for working on the Sabbath. Had I been dealing with people who had any interest in actually learning how such laws were played out in practice, as I have not been in the course of this discussion, I would have expanded on something to which I alluded somewhere way upthread; the necessity of warnings and the requirements of witnesses, which in practice, and by intention, rendered these laws a dead letter some two thousand years ago.

I understand that the practice is no longer carried out or called for by Jews - and it may be true that it's being too much trouble to implement led to it's abandonment - but that doesn't explain why you were unable to admit that it was in any case simply wrong to kill people for working on a sunday, just as it is to kill them for leaving their religion. You instead attacked people who said this, repeatedly.

Example:

#917

Salamantis:

Killing anybody, Jew or Gentile, with warning or without, and with court approval or without, for working on a particular day is wrong.

buzzsawmonkey:

Sez you. Who the f*ck died and made you G-d--or even justice of the peace?
1067 Lynn B.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:37:31pm

re: #848 Jimmah

Buzzsaw, surely killing people for doing a bit of work on a sunday is wrong? Even if it was the latest thing in religious innovation at the time? There is no possible excuse.

Please. This is just getting silly. How many people were actually killed for violating the Sabbath? There are nuances to these laws that you clearly don't understand.

/And, for the record, Sunday is not the Sabbath that these laws were trying to protect.

1068 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:53:37pm
1069 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:54:49pm
1070 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:20pm

re: #1066 Jimmah

I am not in favor of stoning Sabbath violators, and I also understand, I think, where the Buzzsaw is coming from. Judaism, Catholicism, and yes, even Protestantism (mostly), attaches a wealth of interpretation and subsequent legal tradition to the text. Having to deal with people who have cleverly found the dozen passages in the Tanach that most weird out the modern sensibility and want to discuss them out of context AGAIN can be wearisome.

For example: the Torah says that a rebellious child should be stoned. The rabbis surround this law with such a tangle of legal demands that it could never be enacted. Why? They didn't want to enact it! Jewish law will simply not permit such a thing, hasn't for a few thousand years.

The Catholic tradition is similar. These 'gotcha' passages don't lead to embarassed dead ends, they lead to sophisticated, complex ideas that begin with "the Church teaches".

1071 Salem  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:31:07pm

re: #1069 buzzsawmonkey

I was being kind.

And restrained.

And polite.

Nice. Try being absent for awhile. Dickhead...

1072 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:47:32pm
1073 Salem  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:53:19pm

re: #1072 buzzsawmonkey

I so respect and admire the wishes of dingbats who weigh in at the end of a thread after hitting the ding button like lab rats.

Not.

Everything I said in the post you quoted goes. You don't wanna see the gloves come off.

LOL! Oh? Why not? Make a bigger dickhead of yourself, don't let me stop you.

1074 ASU86PE  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:30:45am

re: #1012 Salamantis Sorry I missed the majority of this thread and I'm glad if you're still on.

I first want to correct a post of several days ago. You recall:
re: #1104 Salamantis I stated, "Secular logic does not exist" which was overly simplified due to my time constraints, admittedly.

You answered, "Aristotelian logic."

Logic is a branch of philosophy, , and I used the term 'secular' for a specific reason.
Secularity (adjective form secular) is the state of being separate from religion/philosophy.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Logic deals with patterns of thinking that lead from true premises to true conclusions, originally developed in Ancient Greece. Beginning in the late 19th century, mathematicians such as Frege focused on a mathematical treatment of logic, and today the subject of logic has two broad divisions: mathematical logic (formal symbolic logic) and what is now called philosophical logic. Logic is mathmathical or philisophical and not fundementally 'secular'!

What I was singularly referencing to was that the very 'logic' you use was recovered, cleaned up, and taught from very Judeo-Christian centers of thought. It is impossible to say otherwise.

'Logic' is not derived from a JK Rowlings, Carlos Castaneda, Richard Bach, et al formulation from their fictional writings but from factual characters that revealed the truth of the logic they confessed. You and I, in turn, follow that fact based thought to develop our conclusions. Rules of thought lead to eventual conclusions. But those rules presuppose agreement to prior truth and that is the final bottom line to my statement. Now it is nothing more than contending for the very truths we can agree on.

And as for Aristotelian biology, his "principal of continuity was," "Nature passes so gradually from the inanimate to the animate that their boundary between them is indistinguishable; and there is a middle kind that belongs to both orders. And the transition from plants to animals is continuous; for one might question whether some marine forms are animals or plants, since many of them are attached to the rock and perish if they are separated from it."

I do not see the " indistinguishable middle kind " or "smooth" live plant-animals, live inanimate-plants, live inanimate-animals and continuous transition presupposed by Aristotelian biology & Darwinists or the "spontaneous" animate life coming from the inanimate elements, as again, presupposed by the Darwinists. If continuity exists, it would be tangibly alive and repoducing today as before Man. There should be no difference of yesterday's ooze today.

I do not oppose facts. I was a dumb end of a shovel once in my life, as you supposed in the past thread, when the company I worked for found a full dinosaur ( I recall T-Rex) skeleton in the pit we were digging. The bones were as close as 2 feet to the surface of the original ground surface. It was summer of 1979 in a Tanner company gravel pit on the San Tan Indian Reservation in, of course, San Tan, Arizona, about 15 miles from Chandler, AZ or about 30 miles from Phoenix AZ.

I've been a skeptic of Darwinis since.

Good night, Lizzies and Lizzards

I leave you with this.

1075 theheat  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:23:59am

re: #41 Sharmuta

And as long as they continue to push this within the party, I will be running the other direction, full throttle. While some may think this is throwing the baby out with the bath water, I just can't get on board with a group that seeks to placate a group of nutters, honestly or by appearance, or dedicates a millisecond of effort toward them; essentially prolonging their relevance to the party.

If the GOP thinks a Huckabilly or Jindal is the answer, you'll find me sitting out the dance on the other side of the room. Supporting that, IMHO, is rewarding bad behavior. It's mainstreaming troofer-ism, and I can't stomach it any more. Quite simply, I reject it with every fiber of my being.

1076 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:10:01am

re: #1068 buzzsawmonkey

re: #1044 Salamantis

It is not I who demand that the Bible be inerrant, fixed and unchanging. It is a religiously imperialist minority who insist upon it. Some of them also want it to be supreme here.

buzz: The bolded statement above is the utterance of a paranoid loon. You are free to return to earth at any time.

And I answer: Google Dominionism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I do not dismiss the Bible as a whole. I find much to be admired and emulated in it. I also find some of its passages to be empirically incorrect, and others to be ethically objectionable. And I can hold both of these positions simultaneously without contradiction. It's not an 'all or nothing' thing.

It would be nice if the text could be amended or have passages repealed without removal, as the Amendments do for the US Constitution. But that is an unrealizeable aspiration, even though Thomas Jefferson did once try to do something of the sort.

buzz: The arrogance of the above paragraphs is breathtaking. You can "hold both of" whatever positions you pull out of your ass at random "without contradiction"--and for some unexplained reason, not merely expect (arrogant and stupid) but demand (arrogant, stupid and overbearing, especially in light of your demeanor) that they be respected--yet categorically refuse to even entertain for a nanosecond that people who, on their off-days, know more about the Bible than you do, take it more seriously than you do, and are not burdened by your arrogance, your self-regard, or your flatulent pomposity, might actually have understandings at least as complex as yours.

And I answer: what part of accepting a part without accepting the whole of which is it a part do you have a cognitive difficulty in understanding?

And your overweening overconfidence in your own understanding is quite breathtaking, especially considering what you have displayed on this thread.

Your bloviating yet incoherent logorrhea is quite astounding. You shock, but fail to awe.

1077 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:12:15am

re: #1069 buzzsawmonkey

I was being kind.

And restrained.

And polite.

No, you were just being yourself. And that is not a nice, or respectable, or credible, person to be.

1078 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:30:55am

re: #1070 SanFranciscoZionist

I am not in favor of stoning Sabbath violators, and I also understand, I think, where the Buzzsaw is coming from. Judaism, Catholicism, and yes, even Protestantism (mostly), attaches a wealth of interpretation and subsequent legal tradition to the text. Having to deal with people who have cleverly found the dozen passages in the Tanach that most weird out the modern sensibility and want to discuss them out of context AGAIN can be wearisome.

For example: the Torah says that a rebellious child should be stoned. The rabbis surround this law with such a tangle of legal demands that it could never be enacted. Why? They didn't want to enact it! Jewish law will simply not permit such a thing, hasn't for a few thousand years.

The Catholic tradition is similar. These 'gotcha' passages don't lead to embarassed dead ends, they lead to sophisticated, complex ideas that begin with "the Church teaches".

Why pass laws they did not want to see enforced?

Answer: They did want to see them enforced.

And why should later generations keep them 'on the books' once they were no longer relevant or applicable?

Answer: They were unwilling to admit that they were not infallible, and had made a mistake. Or, more likely, unmodified texts from a historical period (the Old Testament texts were historical, not current, from the POV of those who compiled the Bible) were later included in a subsequent collection without corrective commentary.

Hermeneutic exegesis should indeed be practised. But without gratuitous and snarky apologia.

1079 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:42:43am

re: #1074 ASU86PE

Aristotelian logic dates from the Greeks, before the Romans conquered them, and certainly befire they subsequently conquered the Levant.

You cannot seriously advocate that Biblical logic either pre-dates or supersedes Aristotelian logic. It's simply factually incorrect.

The rest of your post is both logically and linguistically incoherent - which does not surprise me, since I have with dismaying futility repeatedly endeavored to engage you in logical and empirical discussions before, and received only cogency-free hebephrenic word salad responses.

1080 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 3:27:03am

re: #969 Salamantis

But it is eminently fair to remind those who insist that the Bible is the literal, infallible and inerrant Word of God what some of its scriptures actually say.

Your deflective shift refers to the DI young earth creationists, I assume?

1081 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 3:38:41am

re: #973 Dark_Falcon

I've actually found Salamantis to be right more often then wrong. He's also quite fierce in argument (as I found out first hand).

Yeah, but it was fun, wasn't it? For the both of us.

I'll never tire of learning from such exchanges. I'll never tire of teaching from them, either.

1082 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 3:57:29am

re: #1080 Spare O'Lake

Your deflective shift refers to the DI young earth creationists, I assume?

They're the ones who are busting ther collective gluteii striving to shoehorn their way into being legally sanctioned into state permission to religiously propagandize our naive and gullible youth with some of the most incredulous religious dogma that's ever cruised down the pike in public high school science class; right?

Yer damn right I have a problem with that. Just like any rational and reasonable parent would. Or even nonparental citizens who give a flying backflip at a rolling life preserver what's gonna happen to our great grand and glorious nation when all we have to offer in the global bioscience competion for discoveries, advances and innovations upon which technology can construct products and services is a phalanx of zombic memebot creationist clones chanting GodDidIt; no reason for me to LookAtIt. And then our global geopolitical position direly suffers as a result, and I am waxing my trembling lips so I can kiss my beloved Constitution and its cherished, treasured liberties a marrow-rending forever goodbye.

1083 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:07:20am

re: #1082 Salamantis

They are a relatively small minority in the GOP, and no more that a fringe group in the larger population. Atheists, agnostics and (almost all) believers comprise a vast majority and are on the same side of the issue.
So what reason is there to fear an imminent religiofascist victory?

1084 Charlie R  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:23:55am

re: #727 Charles
I read this website for news, the comments i rarely read. However when i read about you recruiting George Bush to bolster your belief in evolution, well i couldnt resist. I do apologize to all here who are offended by my beliefs. I do understand failure to conform is frowned upon. I will try and be more respectful of the views of the site. It was wrong of me to say anything to bring any unsettling or discomfort, please forgive
Charlie

1085 quickjustice  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 7:15:14am

re: #954 Iron Fist

You have it backwards. Gore flunked out of Divinity School (couldn't handle Latin and Greek), and dropped out of law school after his first year to run for Congress up in Carthage. (A vacancy occurred in the congressional seat, offering him that opportunity). He was elected to Congress, and never looked back.

1086 quickjustice  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 7:23:06am

re: #931 Daisy

I knew Gore back in the 1970s, before he was elected to anything. His father was a Democratic U.S. Senator, and his mother, Pauline, was among the first female graduates of Vanderbilt Law School. Pauline was very strong-willed and domineering. She pressured her husband, and later her son, to run for President. Her husband was never successful. Al Jr. came closer.

Gore actually had three post-graduate academic careers. He was a C student at Harvard undergrad, and then went into the Army, where his father got him a non-combat job as a journalist. He liked journalism, and went to journalism school briefly, as well as writing for the Nashville Tennessean, the local Democrat rag. (His father, the senator, was a close friend of John Siegelthaler, publisher of the Tennessean.)

He then tried Divinity School, but couldn't handle Latin and Greek. He finished at Vanderbilt Law School, dropping out after his first year to run for Congress.

1087 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:11:28am

re: #1067 Lynn B.

Please. This is just getting silly. How many people were actually killed for violating the Sabbath? There are nuances to these laws that you clearly don't understand.

/And, for the record, Sunday is not the Sabbath that these laws were trying to protect.

We'll probably never know how many people were killed as a result of this law. We can be certain however that it was too many. For me, it is to the credit of the Jewish people that they abandoned it, not to the credit of the biblical command itself. Why can't you condemn the command itself? It's every bit as wrong, as it stands, as the muslim command to kill apostates. And I've been in that argument with muslims many times, only to be told that I have a laughably unsophisticated understanding of the grandeur and nuance etc of the sharia, and snarkily pointed in the direction of a course on 'hadith science' etc. I'm surprised at the ease with which some believers are able to get morally repugnant passages from the bible off the hook with the same kind of excuses.

And remember Lynn, the reason this was brought up was to illustrate the point that there are passages in the Bible that we could not possibly live by in todays world - for the benefit of literalists who kid themselves on that they can cleave to every word of the bible, the same people who are promoting this creationist nonsense.

1088 meh130  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:21:51am

Evolution is not Cosmology.

Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the Universe, the origin of the planet Earth, or the origin of life.

Anyone on any side of these arguments who attributes evolution to the origin of the Universe, the origin of the planet Earth, or the origin of life is completely ignorant of what evolution is.

Evolution in no way eliminates the possibility of a divine creator of the Universe, the planet Earth, or of life, because evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the Universe, the origin of the planet Earth, or the origin of life. Evolution only describes existing life forms changing and adapting to their environment.

The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with, and is not a part of, evolution.

The Big Bang theory was posited by Georges Lemaître, a Jesuit Priest, professor of physics and astronomer at the Catholic University of Leuven. It was not accepted by the scientists for decades because it was seen as not being science, but instead Genesis masquerading as science It did not become the defacto explanation of the origin of the Universe until Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias of Bell Labs detected cosmic microwave background radiation, evidence which supported the Big Bang over the Steady State Universe.

It amazes me in fifty odd years the Big Bang has going from God masquerading science to the antithesis of an anti-God apostasy. That is truly absurd.

1089 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:28:08am

re: #914 buzzsawmonkey

You, like Yashmak, are attempting--stupidly or disingenuously--to suggest that I have said that there are "no ethical systems" except for those based on the Bible.

I never suggested that you said that. You either mis-read my replies, or are purposefully misrepresenting them now. What you did, (or at least what it read like you were saying) was imply that the only reason Salamantis is around to state his opinion, is that Christian morality formed the basis for western culture, in this comment #809 to Salamantis (which I already pointed out to you earlier):

You have the luxury of sitting back in your figurative Barcalounger and making "moral" pronouncements only because these injunctions which you consider so reprehensible furnished the basis for a society which permitted the emergence of the Fully Formed Moral Being Which Is You to emerge fully armed from its head...or somewhere.

I was debating that point, nothing more. Don't go misrepresenting what I said. And I'd appreciate it if you'd leave off the juvenile name-calling too. I try to keep it out of my comments, you can at least return the favor.

1090 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:30:36am

re: #1069 buzzsawmonkey

I was being kind.

And restrained.

And polite.

No, you were being a mad raving zealot, and threatening to take the madness up a notch or two isn't helping your case one bit.

1091 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:31:00am

re: #1076 Salamantis


And I answer: what part of accepting a part without accepting the whole of which is it a part do you have a cognitive difficulty in understanding?

Lol, that sentence is giving me a headache Sal.

1092 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 9:08:36am

re: #1084 Charlie R

However when i read about you recruiting George Bush to bolster your belief in evolution, well i couldnt resist.

I don't "believe" in evolution -- it's a scientific fact, backed up with 150 years of research and evidence. It doesn't require "belief."

And I didn't "recruit" George Bush. He made those statements himself. Obviously, you're one of the fuming mad people to whom I referred above.

1093 ASU86PE  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 9:46:28am

re: #1079 Salamantis

From one hebephrenic to another:
Try a better affret!

1094 Charlie R  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 10:06:59am

re: #1092 Charles

Evolution has been far from factual for 150 years. May I point you to a source I am sure you aware of to dismiss the claim that evolution has been "fact" for 150 years by reading some of the work of Stephen Gould. He most certainly is credited with revolutionizing conventional thinking on the theory of evolution. If indeed evolution was fact why all of the misrepresentations of supposed missing links?
I will not respond to the ad hominem and the asumptions you make about me belonging to a group you spend too much time pouring out your wrath on. Surely one who is confident in their beliefs wouldnt be so sensitive.
I will probably be banned from the message board and to be honest that would not crush me (it is okay to occasionally embrace humor) God bless those who will recieve it...Charlie

1095 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 10:13:24am

re: #1094 Charlie R

Evolution has been far from factual for 150 years. May I point you to a source I am sure you aware of to dismiss the claim that evolution has been "fact" for 150 years by reading some of the work of Stephen Gould. He most certainly is credited with revolutionizing conventional thinking on the theory of evolution. If indeed evolution was fact why all of the misrepresentations of supposed missing links?
I will not respond to the ad hominem and the asumptions you make about me belonging to a group you spend too much time pouring out your wrath on. Surely one who is confident in their beliefs wouldnt be so sensitive.

Gould did not debate the veracity of evolution. Quoted from MSEncarta:
"Gould and Eldredge noted that the fossil record contained few examples of organisms exhibiting a continuous, gradual evolution in form, but many examples of the abrupt appearance of completely new species. From these observations Gould and Eldredge proposed that the evolution of a species results from rapid changes to an isolated population, caused by such natural phenomena as major climate change, followed by long periods of evolutionary stability."

I will probably be banned from the message board and to be honest that would not crush me (it is okay to occasionally embrace humor) God bless those who will recieve it...Charlie

What an incredible martyr you are. Sheez.

1096 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 10:26:07am

re: #1094 Charlie R

Evolution has been far from factual for 150 years. May I point you to a source I am sure you aware of to dismiss the claim that evolution has been "fact" for 150 years by reading some of the work of Stephen Gould. He most certainly is credited with revolutionizing conventional thinking on the theory of evolution. If indeed evolution was fact why all of the misrepresentations of supposed missing links?

Evolution is a scientific fact. Since you brought up Stephen Jay Gould, here's what he wrote about this:

Paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould writes, 'Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.'

Oops! I guess he didn't say what you thought he said, did he?

As for your assertion that I'm "pouring out wrath," that's laughable.

1097 ludwigvanquixote  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:36:31pm

Wow, go to work and the thread turns huge...

If I could, I would like to throw in something about the debate I see upstream about Jewish Law and executions on Shabbos.

One thing that seems missing from much of the discussion is the nature of the Oral law and the nature of convictions. Someone may have already covered this, but I have not had the time to read all thousand posts... PLease don't hate me if I am repeating something.

In order to convict, of any capital offense, one needs a Sanhederin (a court with the capacity to execute, which we do not have and have not had since the times of Pompey, so the point is already moot) two witnesses, a warning given to the accused and establishment that the
accused knowingly and willfully transgressed the Law.

Meeting those legal requirements "back in the day" was so difficult, that any court that executed more than once in a deacade was called a court of murderers and disbanded.

From a purely theological standpoint, one could point out that even though these things are "on the books" given the limitations put on them, G-d never was so keen on using it, except in the most egregious cases. One could say even more strongly, that since He let the Romans kill off the Sanhederin, He took the capacity do enforce those laws away permanently.

1098 stuiec  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:41:03pm

re: #910 Salamantis

But no second or third order effects can be conclusively attributed to God, whereas we can technologically augment our perceptions and mediatedly peer into the cosmic and microphysical realms (so we have empirical evidence of such things, and belief is not required). No working god-detector has ever been devised.

Sure it has. You just deny that its evidence has anything to do with God.

In my personal experience, I've had moments that show me at least second-order effects -- if not first-order -- of Divine intervention in my life.

In human experience, I've seen second- or third-order effects that are in my personal view evidence of Divine intervention. For example, my mother says she doesn't believe in God because of His failure to prevent the Holocaust. I believe that God intervened to stop the Holocaust in Dec. 1941, when He pulled a few strings and made sure the U.S. Pacific carrier fleet was not at Pearl Harbor on Sunday the 7th. That fact of history meant that the US was able to counterattack at Midway, stall the Japanese advance across the Pacific, and have breathing space to focus its attention on defeating the Nazis. Without the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US would not have entered the European war until much later, if at all; with a fully successful attack on Pearl Harbor, the US would not have entered the European war at all.

You are free not to see that as evidence of God's existence and involvement with His creation. Einstein was free to deny the evidence of quantum mechanics, too.

1099 stuiec  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:42:06pm

re: #874 DistantThunder

I have a bigger problem than that: Just 5 minutes ago my son's 3rd grade teacher called me to say that she caught him telling two other boys in the class that there is no Santa Claus. She said the two boys looked shocked. She had to tell my son, 8, to "keep his beliefs about Santa" to himself.

She was very sweet about it - but I've got to figure out what to say so that he doesn't feel it's his job to set the record straight for everyone else.

We had to deal with this issue with our daughters. It's pretty easy just to tell him not to spoil the fun for the other kids.

1100 stuiec  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:50:14pm

re: #871 Salamantis

These standards (against murder, theft, lying, slavery, etc.) may be derived from the human existential imperatives concommitant upon sharing this common home and its land and resources with other persons, and endeavoring to all get along here as comfortably and as freely as possible. Religions either appropriated them from the cultures in which they were born, or appropriated them from earlier religion that appropriated them from their own societal cradles. All of them are found in most religions, and most of them are found in all religions, whether those religions believe in one god (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Bahai, Sikhism), many gods (Hinduism, Paganism), or no gods at all (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism).

I'm sorry, what did you say? It got buried under a lot of nonsense words.

I think the gist of it has something to do with utilitarianism, yes? Let's all get along?

How do you know that that is morally correct? How does that guide you in deciding if a woman has the right to kill her unborn child, who's definitionally innocent of any crime, in order to be free of the physical, emotional and social consequences of childbirth? How does that tell you whether the State has the right to execute an individual for transgressing the laws of that State, much less which laws are so vital to the happy functioning of the State that their transgression merits the death penalty?

Does the utilitarian standard mean that morality changes when circumstances change? If you're on a lifeboat with finite food and water, is it morally justified to execute someone for stealing food and water (which crime might lead to the deaths of others)? Or does humanity dictate that executing someone for a petty crime is wrong, even if that means the criminal survives and the law-abiding citizens die of hunger and thirst?

How do you know that your morality is right for all people everywhere at all times?

1101 Charlie R  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:15:43pm

re: #1096 Charles

I know what Stephen Gould believes, my point which i failed to make plain was that his contribution to the evolution theory revolutionized the theory. I will quote Stephen Gould to make my point "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." (From "Evolution's Erratic Pace")There is still a long way for evolutionists to go prove their theory a fact irrefutable. There are many holes in this theory and I think it wise to not put all your eggs in a basket that has missing weaves.
On the other hand i do like the news portion of the website and dont want to antagonize too much, i will read your reply to be courteous but will not respond any more as i dont think we are going in a positive direction.
Thanks for letting my state my opinion which i know is diametrically opposed to yours...Charlie

1102 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:49:21pm

re: #1101 Charlie R

There are many holes in this theory and I think it wise to not put all your eggs in a basket that has missing weaves.

Creationists like to say this, but for some reason they're never able to point out what those holes are.

List of transitional fossils.

As for your Stephen Jay Gould quote, this is a very common quote found at creationist websites, and it's misrepresented. This is what Gould had to say: Stephen Jay Gould - 'Evolution as Fact and Theory,' 1994.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

1103 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 3:12:11pm

re: #1101 Charlie R

I know what Stephen Gould believes, my point which i failed to make plain was that his contribution to the evolution theory revolutionized the theory.

Except it's fairly obvious that, at the time you cited him originally, you didn't. You said:

Evolution has been far from factual for 150 years.

. . .and cited Gould's works as supporting material, when in reality Gould's never argued that evolution isn't factual.

I will quote Stephen Gould to make my point "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." (From "Evolution's Erratic Pace")There is still a long way for evolutionists to go prove their theory a fact irrefutable.

Of course, the theory itself (like ALL scientific theories) continues to develope, strengthen, and evolve with each new discovery. A theory is supported by facts; evidence found, observed, and catalogued. No theory is EVER completely irrefutable. . .including theories like gravity, relativity, etc. All are subject to refinement based on new information. That doesn't change the factual nature of the evidence supporting them. At this time though, the alternative to the theory of evolution, Intelligent Design, has NO credible discoveries or facts supporting it, leaving evolution as the only viable empirically supported theory on the table. Gould would have agreed.

There are many holes in this theory and I think it wise to not put all your eggs in a basket that has missing weaves.

Gould didn't think so. He simply supplemented the theory with an alternative to the gradual evolution claims originated put forward by Darwin.

1104 Daisy  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:16:57pm

re: #1086 quickjustice

I knew Gore back in the 1970s, before he was elected to anything. His father was a Democratic U.S. Senator, and his mother, Pauline, was among the first female graduates of Vanderbilt Law School. Pauline was very strong-willed and domineering. She pressured her husband, and later her son, to run for President. Her husband was never successful. Al Jr. came closer.

Gore actually had three post-graduate academic careers. He was a C student at Harvard undergrad, and then went into the Army, where his father got him a non-combat job as a journalist. He liked journalism, and went to journalism school briefly, as well as writing for the Nashville Tennessean, the local Democrat rag. (His father, the senator, was a close friend of John Siegelthaler, publisher of the Tennessean.)

He then tried Divinity School, but couldn't handle Latin and Greek. He finished at Vanderbilt Law School, dropping out after his first year to run for Congress.

Just caught this, and so sorry for the belated reply. All that you've written about Gore is interesting, and even more so since it's personal. I ought to know better, but it's tempting to speculate that his carbon footprint hucksterism is a direct offspring - or at least related - to what must be a strong sense of inadequacy that the combo of a successful father (albeit w/success negated by a harridan wife) and a insatiable, impossible to please mother. I almost feel sorry for him, and then I recall that he's a con man who could very well have become POTUS. Shudder.

An observation and then a question: When a parent attempts to live vicariously through a child by puppeteering the son's success, nothing says f/u to the parent in quite the same way as continually sabotaging any/all legitimate successes.

And my question: Was he a pot head? In my bones I feel it's true.

1105 Daisy  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:19:43pm

re: #1104 Daisy

"... hucksterism is a direct offspring - or at least related - to what must be a strong sense of inadequacy that the combo of a successful father (albeit w/success negated by a harridan wife) and a insatiable, impossible to please mother. ..."

meant to complete that w/ 'would produce" ..

1106 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 13, 2008 12:02:22am

re: #1098 stuiec

Sure it has. You just deny that its evidence has anything to do with God.

In my personal experience, I've had moments that show me at least second-order effects -- if not first-order -- of Divine intervention in my life.

In human experience, I've seen second- or third-order effects that are in my personal view evidence of Divine intervention. For example, my mother says she doesn't believe in God because of His failure to prevent the Holocaust. I believe that God intervened to stop the Holocaust in Dec. 1941, when He pulled a few strings and made sure the U.S. Pacific carrier fleet was not at Pearl Harbor on Sunday the 7th. That fact of history meant that the US was able to counterattack at Midway, stall the Japanese advance across the Pacific, and have breathing space to focus its attention on defeating the Nazis. Without the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US would not have entered the European war until much later, if at all; with a fully successful attack on Pearl Harbor, the US would not have entered the European war at all.

You are free not to see that as evidence of God's existence and involvement with His creation. Einstein was free to deny the evidence of quantum mechanics, too.

There has yet been a machine developed that can accurately register the presence or absence of God.

1107 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 13, 2008 12:09:10am

re: #1100 stuiec

I'm sorry, what did you say? It got buried under a lot of nonsense words.

I think the gist of it has something to do with utilitarianism, yes? Let's all get along?

How do you know that that is morally correct? How does that guide you in deciding if a woman has the right to kill her unborn child, who's definitionally innocent of any crime, in order to be free of the physical, emotional and social consequences of childbirth? How does that tell you whether the State has the right to execute an individual for transgressing the laws of that State, much less which laws are so vital to the happy functioning of the State that their transgression merits the death penalty?

Does the utilitarian standard mean that morality changes when circumstances change? If you're on a lifeboat with finite food and water, is it morally justified to execute someone for stealing food and water (which crime might lead to the deaths of others)? Or does humanity dictate that executing someone for a petty crime is wrong, even if that means the criminal survives and the law-abiding citizens die of hunger and thirst?

How do you know that your morality is right for all people everywhere at all times?

Different people at different times in different places have embraced different moralities. All of them agreed on most basic principles, and most of them agreed on all basic principles (prohibitions against murder, stealing, lying, slavery, etc). Human consensus is what we've got. No single cosmic imprimatur is universally recognized.

I turn the question back around: With all of the different religions around, each possessing similar but subtly different moral systems, how do you know that your choice of a religion and its morality system is correct? Answer: you don't; you simply believe that it is.


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