On Islamic Creationism

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 8:29 pm PST • Views: 211

Here’s an interesting interview with Salman Hameed, an assistant professor of Integrated Science and Humanities at Massachusett’s Hampshire College: How to stop creationism gaining a hold in Islam.

Unfortunately, it’s a little late to stop creationism from “gaining a hold.” It already has one.

How is evolution perceived in Muslim countries?

If you ask the question of whether you accept evolution or not, we find that a large portion of people, vast majorities, reject evolution. Compared to the US, where 40% are comfortable with evolution, in the Muslim countries that would go down to 10, 15, or 20%. In Turkey, one of the more secular Muslim countries, the level is between 22 and 25%. …

What is the basis for Islamic opposition to evolution?

In some instances, evolution becomes a symbol for Western dominance and a sign of modernity. Evolution can act as a lighting rod, as a symbol of the West and everything that is bad about the West - usually translated as material culture or materialism.

Are there any organised efforts to discredit evolution in Muslim countries, like we see in the US and Europe?

The most prominent is Adnan Oktar, who goes by the pen name Harun Yahya.

He has the most well-funded organisation and its main purpose is to discredit evolution. He believes that the theory of evolution is the cornerstone of Western ideology and that if he undermines evolution, it’s going to undermine Western society.

Speaking of Harun Yahya, here’s an interview with this bizarre creature at Counterknowledge.com, in which he espouses an Islamic mirror image of the dishonest points Ben Stein made in his anti-evolution film Expelled: “Darwinism is the life-blood of terror”: an interview with Adnan Oktar.

Mr. Oktar, why is refuting Darwinism so important to you? Do you truly consider it the root of all evils, as your publications seem to suggest?

Darwinism is an idea that maintains that human beings are a species of animal, that some races are superior to others, and that it is supposedly a law of nature for superior races to ruthlessly crush weaker ones in order to develop and progress. For example, Darwin cited the Turks - surely my nation is above such statements - in reference to non-European races, describing them as “barbarian, lower races to be eliminated.” The two world wars, the suffering imperialism inflicted on many societies, the cruelty of Stalin and Mao, Hitler’s “Aryan Race” nonsense and Mussolini’s atrocities are all essentially the product of the same mindset.

So Darwinism and terrorism are connected?

Shortly after it was first proposed, the theory of evolution was extended from the fields of biology and paleontology and applied, by various circles, to and made highly influential in a great many other spheres, from human relations to the interpretation of history and from politics to social life. The application of the Darwinist lie that “nature is a sphere of struggle and conflict” to human society in particular bestowed a supposed scientific guise on Hitler’s obsession about the master race, Marx’s error that “the history of humanity is the history of class struggles,” Mao’s regarding human beings as a kind of animal and inflicting terrible savagery on them, Mussolini’s claim that “war alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy,” capitalism’s expectation of “the strong becoming even stronger by trampling on the weak,” Stalin’s ghastly labor camps, and the ruthless exploitation of the third world by colonialist nations and their inhuman treatment of them. Terrorists who ruthlessly slaughter innocent people and who believe that problems can be resolved by violence and that conflict is inevitable are also nourished by Darwinist indoctrination. Darwinism is the life-blood of terror.

And as we pointed out recently, the Discovery Institute (originator of the “intelligent design” hoax and the Wedge strategy) is proudly collaborating with Turkish creationists.

Also see:
Muslim Creationism on the Rise in Europe

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608 comments

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1 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:31:30pm

goog grief!

(charlie brown off)

2 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:32:46pm

(good)
pimf is for sissies

3 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:33:39pm

I'm thinking a survey on evolution would go more like this:

"Have you ever heard of evolution?"

"Have you ever heard of Charles Darwin?"

...and so on.

4 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:34:00pm

Oktar: Terrorists who ruthlessly slaughter innocent people and who believe that problems can be resolved by violence and that conflict is inevitable are also nourished by Darwinist indoctrination

Too much irony. I...I need to sit down...

5 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:34:19pm
What is the basis for Islamic opposition to evolution?

In some instances, evolution becomes a symbol for Western dominance and a sign of modernity. Evolution can act as a lighting rod, as a symbol of the West and everything that is bad about the West - usually translated as material culture or materialism.

While I don't disagree, I would add that it's similar to the opposition it gets in the West in that it's koranic literalism. The thing with koranic literalism though is that the koran, to muslims, is supposed to be the literal word of allah.

6 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:35:50pm

re: #4 Bloodnok

Oktar: Terrorists who ruthlessly slaughter innocent people and who believe that problems can be resolved by violence and that conflict is inevitable are also nourished by Darwinist indoctrination

Too much irony. I...I need to sit down...

Did I say irony? Sorry, I meant utter bullshit.

7 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:36:20pm

For what it's worth, I'm not sure creationism is really the problem moderate Islamic leaders should be focused on, at the moment.

8 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:36:47pm

re: #3 gmsc

The extra points question is:
"Can you distinguish between philosophical materialism and methodological materialism?"

9 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:37:40pm

Nice to see Charles going with this. I have to assume that I am not the only one that emailed him about it today.

10 LEGION  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:39:16pm

The most prominent is Adnan Oktar, who goes by the pen name Harun Yahya.

Oh yeah? Both names read like Yabba Dabba Do to me, he could've kept the real name and not bothered with the pen!

11 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:39:57pm

re: #9 CyanSnowHawk

Nice to see Charles going with this. I have to assume that I am not the only one that emailed him about it today.

I got three emails about this, as a matter of fact -- and I had already seen it through my Google News alerts.

12 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:40:02pm

I hope the legislature and Jindal are happy when CAIR goes after the first school district that teaches Biblical creationism in a biology class.

13 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:40:33pm

re: #10 LEGION

The most prominent is Adnan Oktar, who goes by the pen name Harun Yahya.

Oh yeah? Both names read like Yabba Dabba Do to me, he could've kept the real name and not bothered with the pen!

Harun Yahya.
Any relation to John Yaya of Yoyodyne?

14 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:42:55pm

re: #11 Charles

I got three emails about this, as a matter of fact -- and I had already seen it through my Google News alerts.

I didn't think I was the only lizard that thought you would appreciate the link.

I wonder, will there be any complaints on this thread about creationism issues being off topic for an anti-jihadist blog?

15 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:43:00pm

What is your next project?
I am preparing the Atlas of Creation in seven volumes.

That seventh book should be pretty

16 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:43:42pm

re: #15 Bloodnok

What is your next project?
I am preparing the Atlas of Creation in seven volumes.

That seventh book should be pretty short

GAH! PIMF fixed

17 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:44:24pm

re: #15 Bloodnok

What is your next project?
I am preparing the Atlas of Creation in seven volumes.

That seventh book should be pretty

Adam and Eve and the Deathly Hallows?

18 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:44:34pm

re: #15 Bloodnok

Maybe he'll edit the fishing lure out of this next edition.
[Link: forbiddenmusic.wordpress.com...]

19 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:46:35pm

re: #18 jaunte

Maybe he'll edit the fishing lure out of this next edition.
[Link: forbiddenmusic.wordpress.com...]

That is priceless

20 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:47:16pm

re: #15 Bloodnok

What is your next project?
I am preparing the Atlas of Creation in seven volumes.

That seventh book should be pretty

Actually- he's translating it and shipping it to India.

21 So?  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:47:36pm

re: #7 Cognito

For what it's worth, I'm not sure creationism is really the problem moderate Islamic leaders should be focused on, at the moment.

I would have given you another 100 dings if it were permitted.

22 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:48:23pm

re: #12 MandyManners

Maybe this is a good time to promote my new Christmas product: CAIR Bears!

They're all named Mo.

There's Mo the Fatwa Bear, Mo the Honor Killing Bear, Mo the Suicide Revolutionary and NOW -- just in time for...um...well, nothing in fact...no holiday in particular, we bring you -- Mo the Intelligent Design Bear! completely covered with leeches stamped with big, bold white letters "Evolution" which are sucking out his life blood!

Get yours today!

23 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:49:15pm

re: #7 Cognito

For what it's worth, I'm not sure creationism is really the problem moderate Islamic leaders should be focused on, at the moment.

We can't let the kooks gain any ground, Cog. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

24 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:50:16pm

re: #7 Cognito

I dinged you down, and I'll tell you why. Islamic acceptance of evolution is part and parcel to moving them out of the dark ages. There are obviously a number of issues for islamic moderates to work on, but poo-pooing this is short sighted.

25 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:50:17pm

re: #22 hermit

Don't mock the Bears. They just beat the Saints tonight! Go Chicago!

26 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:50:50pm

re: #7 Cognito

For what it's worth, I'm not sure creationism is really the problem moderate Islamic leaders should be focused on, at the moment.

Uh ... Salman Hameed is a scientist, not a "moderate Islamic leader," and since this bears directly on his field of study it seems more than appropriate for him to focus on it.

27 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:51:21pm

re: #25 Dark_Falcon

dang! how did Augustine do? Bede?

/the saints ain't what they used to be...*sigh*

28 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:53:02pm

re: #22 hermit

Maybe this is a good time to promote my new Christmas product: CAIR Bears!

They're all named Mo.

There's Mo the Fatwa Bear, Mo the Honor Killing Bear, Mo the Suicide Revolutionary and NOW -- just in time for...um...well, nothing in fact...no holiday in particular, we bring you -- Mo the Intelligent Design Bear! completely covered with leeches stamped with big, bold white letters "Evolution" which are sucking out his life blood!

Get yours today!

I have no mo' money for that.

29 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:53:58pm

re: #25 Dark_Falcon

re: #26 Charles
...and since this bears directly on his field of study it seems more than appropriate for him to focus on it.

See! Charles said bears!
/it's cool

30 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:54:20pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Actually- he's translating it and shipping it to India.

Precisely. People who would like to see this issue go away just assume Oktar will stay contained in Turkey. He won't. He hasn't.

31 Adrenalyn  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:54:23pm

A man walks into his bedroom with a sheep under his arm and says: "Darling, this is the pig I have sex with when you have a headache."

His wife is lying in bed and replies: "I think you'll find that's a sheep, you idiot."

The man says: "I think you'll find that I wasn't talking to you."

32 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:55:15pm

I don't think that Islamic terrorists feel empowered by Darwinism one bit. They kill because the Koran told them to, and not to promote scientific discovery.

33 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:55:54pm

re: #32 Mich-again

Yea, I doubt any of them said "Darwin-akbar! Boom!"

34 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:56:00pm

re: #22 hermit

Maybe this is a good time to promote my new Christmas product: CAIR Bears!

They're all named Mo.

There's Mo the Fatwa Bear, Mo the Honor Killing Bear, Mo the Suicide Revolutionary and NOW -- just in time for...um...well, nothing in fact...no holiday in particular, we bring you -- Mo the Intelligent Design Bear! completely covered with leeches stamped with big, bold white letters "Evolution" which are sucking out his life blood!

Get yours today!

Mo' the non gender specific voodoo doll? Pull its cord and it will yell any one of 50 phrases of hate filled religious spew. It also wets its pants when it actually sees an American.

35 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:56:04pm

What the Islamic world needs is a healthy infusion of fresh air in their classrooms. Classic logic, scientific method, reasoned debate...

Why am I holding my breath?

36 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:56:05pm

re: #30 Bloodnok

Precisely. People who would like to see this issue go away just assume Oktar will stay contained in Turkey. He won't. He hasn't.

His brand of Islamic creationism is also gaining ground rapidly in Europe.

37 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:57:50pm
38 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:58:05pm

re: #10 LEGION

The most prominent is Adnan Oktar, who goes by the pen name Harun Yahya.

Oh yeah? Both names read like Yabba Dabba Do to me, he could've kept the real name and not bothered with the pen!

That's sort of like me when I was younger, watching Hawaii Five-o. Whenever I saw the freeze frame that said, "Kam Fong as Chin Ho", I would always wonder why they bothered changing his name.

I mentioned this to a friend, who replied, "Think of it this way: Right now, there's some guy in China watching Hawaii Five-o reruns and asking himself, 'Jack Lord as Steve McGarrett? Why'd they even bother changing his name?'"

39 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:58:32pm

re: #27 hermit

dang! how did Augustine do? Bede?

/the saints ain't what they used to be...*sigh*

The Saints did alright. They even took the lead 24-21 with less than 3:30 to play in the 4th. But Kyle Orton was able to lead the Bears into field goal range to send the game into overtime. The Bear proceeded to win the coin toss, move back into field goal range, and win with a 35 yard FG.

40 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 8:59:36pm

To me evolutionists have as much faith as religionists. What is it going to be for them? Did dinosaurs become extinct due to a meteorite that crashed in South America and caused darkness on this Earth, thereby losing all foliage? Or did Dinosaurs survive and evolve into birds. Or did some dinosaurs go extinct and some of the cute little ones survive and evolve into birds. If there was no more foliage on this earth and everything was dark, exactly how did they survive and eat. Did they magically evolve night vision in one day and grow plants in atriums with artificial light? Or was there a bat dinosaur that evolved into today’s birds. It really is a joke. And there are more holes in the fossil record than Swiss cheese.

By the way, I’m no fan of creationism or intelligent design and don’t think it should be taught in any public schools. I also don’t think evolution should be taught in public high school or grade school, nor religion, even explaining different religions should not be taught unless it is a private school since certain books and teachers will have their pathetic biases and agendas, usually liberal, which don’t belong in the public arena.

As an aside, I believe the Big Bang Theory is compatible with the Bible.

41 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:00:19pm
What is the basis for Islamic opposition to evolution?

In some instances, evolution becomes a symbol for Western dominance and a sign of modernity. Evolution can act as a lighting rod, as a symbol of the West and everything that is bad about the West - usually translated as material culture or materialism.

Middle Eastern countries are going to have to change this paradigm if they are going to move out of the stone ages.

42 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:00:44pm

re: #32 Mich-again

I don't think that Islamic terrorists feel empowered by Darwinism one bit. They kill because the Koran told them to, and not to promote scientific discovery.

They will use whatever they can to get the American Christians to let them insert the IV needle. This is the psychological equivalent of the N.Korean tunnels under the DMZ...

43 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:00:49pm

re: #33 Dan G.

Yea, I doubt any of them said "Darwin-akbar! Boom!"

I don't think of them actually say "Boom!"

44 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:01:53pm

re: #40 beermeister

To me evolutionists have as much faith as religionists..

Are you a scientist?

45 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:02:15pm

re: #40 beermeister

Do you know the experiments, and the evidence behind evolution? I'm guessing not because there's no other way (... well other than dishonesty) that you could claim it was accepted on faith (i.e. believe without reason).

The creationists are getting their asses-kicked and are looking for a draw (i.e. don't teach either).

46 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:03:05pm

re: #43 gmsc

I don't think of them actually saying "Boom!"

PIYF

47 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:03:14pm

re: #44 swamprat

I'll bet so, and he does science at a science place too!

/

48 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:03:56pm

It's amazing how many creationists launch into a rant with the words, "I'm not a creationist, BUT..."

49 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:03:59pm

Got a downdinging. Well that was unexpected.

50 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:04:05pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

PIYF

Maybe I was dictating!
;)

51 sneezey  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:04:09pm

Surprising that views in the Muslim world have hardly evolved from the 7th century...

52 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:04:23pm

re: #43 gmsc
The jihadists who say Nie?! I would like to see such a skit ;)

53 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:04:43pm

ot: Auto bailout fails in senate
Good. the ridiculous corrupt anti-competitive anti-reality DNC/UAW can pound sand.

Chris Dodd can pound sand too.

54 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:05:48pm

re: #51 sneezey

Surprising that views in the Muslim world have hardly evolved from the 7th century...

Yes it is! I mean, they're so modern!

/sarc (not being hostile to you)

55 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:05:56pm

re: #53 FrogMarch

Don't hold your breath... remember what happened last time. Wait to see if it comes back with pork.

56 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:06:13pm

I'm not a chocolate-re: #48 Charles

It's amazing how many creationists launch into a rant with the words, "I'm not a creationist, BUT..."

I'm not a chocaholic, but...

57 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:06:42pm

20 comments. Well that, too, is a surprise.

58 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:07:05pm

re: #56 EmmmieG

I'm not a chocolate-

I'm not a chocaholic, but...

Dang you! Now I need chocolate.

I am a chocaholic, and . . .

59 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:07:08pm

"Shortly after it was first proposed, the theory of evolution was extended from the fields of biology and paleontology and applied, by various circles, to and made highly influential in a great many other spheres, from human relations to the interpretation of history and from politics to social life. The application of the Darwinist lie that “nature is a sphere of struggle and conflict” to human society in particular bestowed a supposed scientific guise on Hitler’s obsession about the master race, Marx’s error that “the history of humanity is the history of class struggles,” Mao’s regarding human beings as a kind of animal and inflicting terrible savagery on them, Mussolini’s claim that “war alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy,” capitalism’s expectation of “the strong becoming even stronger by trampling on the weak,” Stalin’s ghastly labor camps, and the ruthless exploitation of the third world by colonialist nations and their inhuman treatment of them."

At least he has a pretty good list of twentieth century evils and is aware of social Darwinism. Evolutionary theory causes terrorism? Bizarre.

60 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:07:08pm

sorry - just venting about the freak show that is our congress.
Thank heaven for the few republicans who get it.
Good night.
[Link: www.classicalvalues.com...]

I must admit that it is about the toughest love Congress could impose on the auto companies. Let me translate: in order to get the money stolen from the taxpayers the auto companies will have to increase their loss rate.

This from the geniuses who brought us Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

61 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:09:31pm

re: #59 chakal

At least he has a pretty good list of twentieth century evils and is aware of social Darwinism. Evolutionary theory causes terrorism? Bizarre.

It's no more bizarre than the creationist talking point that the theory of evolution led to the Third Reich.

In fact, it's exactly as bizarre, and exactly as dishonest.

62 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:10:06pm

re: #40 beermeister

By the way, I’m no fan of creationism or intelligent design and don’t think it should be taught in any public schools.

Your prior arguments are evidence that this is a lie.

63 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:10:18pm

re: #38 gmsc

LOL!

64 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:10:53pm

OT:

Just came across an "academic" looking article on fauxtography, and specifically LGF's role in the 2006 scandals.

The first pull-out quote is from Charles, and is correctly cited.

Linky to a paper on fauxtography

I thought some of you might find it interesting.

65 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:11:30pm

re: #59 chakal

At least he has a pretty good list of twentieth century evils and is aware of social Darwinism. Evolutionary theory causes terrorism? Bizarre.

It's an islamic twist on "Darwin lead to the Holocaust". In other words, science kills people. It's just tailored for a different audience.

66 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:11:33pm

re: #61 Charles

Charles, you've found that the D.I.'ers are collaborating with Adnan Oktar, right? What are the odds, you think, that they share a funding source?

67 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:11:38pm

re: #26 Charles

Uh ... Salman Hameed is a scientist, not a "moderate Islamic leader," and since this bears directly on his field of study it seems more than appropriate for him to focus on it.

My reference was to the more general problem of "How to stop creationism gaining a hold in Islam."

That's not an unworthy goal, in itself. Much like it's a well-reasoned priority to, say, rid one's farmland of crows.

Unless, of course, you're on the surface of the sun.

68 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:11:44pm

re: #59 chakal

"Shortly after it was first proposed, the theory of evolution was extended from the fields of biology and paleontology and applied, by various circles, to and made highly influential in a great many other spheres, from human relations to the interpretation of history and from politics to social life. The application of the Darwinist lie that “nature is a sphere of struggle and conflict” to human society in particular bestowed a supposed scientific guise on Hitler’s obsession about the master race, Marx’s error that “the history of humanity is the history of class struggles,” Mao’s regarding human beings as a kind of animal and inflicting terrible savagery on them, Mussolini’s claim that “war alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy,” capitalism’s expectation of “the strong becoming even stronger by trampling on the weak,” Stalin’s ghastly labor camps, and the ruthless exploitation of the third world by colonialist nations and their inhuman treatment of them."

At least he has a pretty good list of twentieth century evils and is aware of social Darwinism. Evolutionary theory causes terrorism? Bizarre.

Concur. The problem is that he is wrong on the science, and ends up standing with bad people. The method of dealing with Islamists must be:

"Don't yield an inch!" - Col. Strong Vincent's last words at Gettysburg.
July 2nd, 1863

69 Syrah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:11:58pm

Its Turtles, all the way down!

. . .and for some amusement,

Iroquois Creation Myth

Yes, its about turtles.

70 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:11:59pm

re: #40 beermeister

Not teach science? That's just plain nuts.

71 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:12:10pm

re: #43 gmsc

I don't think of them actually say "Boom!"

Hard to tell, as there is usually quite a loud bang happening at the same time.

72 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:13:25pm

re: #67 Cognito

My reference was to the more general problem of "How to stop creationism gaining a hold in Islam."

That's not an unworthy goal, in itself. Much like it's a well-reasoned priority to, say, rid one's farmland of crows.

Unless, of course, you're on the surface of the sun.

Sorry, Cog had to down-ding you for that one. Your last sentence made your entire post incomprehensible.

73 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:13:49pm

re: #66 Dan G.

Charles, you've found that the D.I.'ers are collaborating with Adnan Oktar, right? What are the odds, you think, that they share a funding source?

I wouldn't be surprised.

74 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:14:19pm

re: #64 Joo-LiZ

OT:

Just came across an "academic" looking article on fauxtography, and specifically LGF's role in the 2006 scandals.

The first pull-out quote is from Charles, and is correctly cited.

Linky to a paper on fauxtography

I thought some of you might find it interesting.

I thought maybe it was going to be about le note du élancements.

75 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:15:10pm

re: #73 MandyManners

My mind keeps throwing up that question... and some Saudi would be at the top of my suspect list.

/speculation

76 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:15:31pm

re: #74 gmsc

I thought maybe it was going to be about le note du élancements.

Bless you.
/

I haven't taken french in a while, whats that mean?

77 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:15:56pm

re: #71 CyanSnowHawk

Hard to tell, as there is usually quite a loud bang happening at the same time.

Plus, sometimes they're in those really quiet and tough cars.
;)

78 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:16:16pm

re: #76 Joo-LiZ

Bless you.
/

I haven't taken french in a while, whats that mean?

"The note of throbbing"

79 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:16:40pm

re: #64 Joo-LiZ

OT:

Just came across an "academic" looking article on fauxtography, and specifically LGF's role in the 2006 scandals.

The first pull-out quote is from Charles, and is correctly cited.

Linky to a paper on fauxtography

I thought some of you might find it interesting.

This actually has a lot of very nice things to say about LGF and its format from what I've read so far.

80 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:16:46pm

re: #40 beermeister

To me evolutionists have as much faith as religionists.

It ain't faith when it's supported by empirical evidence.

What is it going to be for them? Did dinosaurs become extinct due to a meteorite that crashed in South America and caused darkness on this Earth, thereby losing all foliage? Or did Dinosaurs survive and evolve into birds. Or did some dinosaurs go extinct and some of the cute little ones survive and evolve into birds.

The divergent speciation was underway prior to the extinction event.

If there was no more foliage on this earth and everything was dark, exactly how did they survive and eat. Did they magically evolve night vision in one day and grow plants in atriums with artificial light?

Birds are mainly carnivores. They were perfectly suited to do what their large landbound dinosaur relatives coudn't do - swoop down on insects and tiny mammals and fish and other little critters from the sky.

Or was there a bat dinosaur that evolved into today’s birds.

Bats are mammals, more closely related to rodents.

It really is a joke. And there are more holes in the fossil record than Swiss cheese.

Don't look now, but a lot of those holes have been solidly filled in lately. With more fill-ins to come, I'm sure.

By the way, I’m no fan of creationism or intelligent design and don’t think it should be taught in any public schools. I also don’t think evolution should be taught in public high school or grade school, nor religion, even explaining different religions should not be taught unless it is a private school since certain books and teachers will have their pathetic biases and agendas, usually liberal, which don’t belong in the public arena.

The difference between evolutionary theory and religion is that evolutionary theory is supported by and makes coherent sense of reams of empirical evidence. Religious dogmas possess no empirical support. This is why it should be taught in public high school science class. Science is all about empirical evidence.

As an aside, I believe the Big Bang Theory is compatible with the Bible.

Evolutionary theory is, too, if you don't take Genesis literally.

81 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:18:36pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Not incomprehensible; my point is that while going after creationism is certainly not a bad thing, it seems somewhat disconnected from reality.

Imagine there's a dog barking and snarling at you, in the near distance. It gets your attention. You want that dog to go away, or to persuade it to chill out. An excellent priority.

Unless, of course, there's a guy standing behind the dog with a sawed-off shotgun pointed your way. Then suddenly there's a new priority.

I've got no problem whatsoever with Mr. Hameed focusing on this issue. It's his field. What's he supposed to do, go uproot terrorist cells across the world? No. But I think to elevate the issue of creationism to a global priority is energy better spent elsewhere.

Just my opinion.

82 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:18:57pm

This really is a problem in Islamic countries, Islamists love Harun's picture books, and they can be found in deobandi madrassas. The colorful pictures and articles do not disagree with the hard core jihadi's vision at all. It's also why all his whacky anti-evolution diatribes are all over the net spoken by animated characters in an Orwellian computer voice. He's going for the kids, just like the Jihadis do.

83 SteveC  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:19:03pm
84 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:19:15pm
Terrorists who ruthlessly slaughter innocent people and who believe that problems can be resolved by violence and that conflict is inevitable are also nourished by Darwinist indoctrination. Darwinism is the life-blood of terror.

This sounds like inverse Darwinism- Extinction of the most dimwitted

85 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:19:47pm

Going "after creationism in Islam," that should have read.

86 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:20:03pm

re: #80 Salamantis

Or was there a bat dinosaur that evolved into today’s birds.

Bats are mammals, more closely related to rodents.

Pterodactyl. Flying bat-dino

87 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:20:07pm

re: #79 Bloodnok

This actually has a lot of very nice things to say about LGF and its format from what I've read so far.

Yup, I don't think I indicated otherwise.

88 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:20:33pm

And for the record, Oktar -- or Yahya or whoever -- is a moron.

89 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:21:49pm

re: #81 Cognito

Not incomprehensible; my point is that while going after creationism is certainly not a bad thing, it seems somewhat disconnected from reality.

Imagine there's a dog barking and snarling at you, in the near distance. It gets your attention. You want that dog to go away, or to persuade it to chill out. An excellent priority.

Unless, of course, there's a guy standing behind the dog with a sawed-off shotgun pointed your way. Then suddenly there's a new priority.

I've got no problem whatsoever with Mr. Hameed focusing on this issue. It's his field. What's he supposed to do, go uproot terrorist cells across the world? No. But I think to elevate the issue of creationism to a global priority is energy better spent elsewhere.

Just my opinion.

I've got an idea; why don't we try walking and chewing gum at the same time?

90 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:21:56pm

re: #40 beermeister

Guiness Book of Records - Fastest LGF Karma plummet in history.

91 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:22:13pm

re: #80 Salamantis

Sir, I once again salute you! You fisked that post quite effectively: demolishing the arguments in a decent and fairminded way.

92 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:22:34pm

re: #87 Joo-LiZ

Yup, I don't think I indicated otherwise.

lol. You didn't. Sorry for the confusion! The "actually" was to indicate my surprise at seeing how much of the paper was dedicated to just talking about LGF.

93 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:23:15pm

re: 44 Swamprat

No. I do like science. Evolution is a fringe science to me. I have a hilarious dinosaur story, but I can't post it because I would upset too many on this board.

re: 45 Dan G.

Why are you attacking me? I question the Big Bang Theory, although I think it is interesting. I also question the evidence for evolution. I think it is really suspect. There might be evolution and there might not and I really don't care. I'm not an evangelical and I don't believe in the Koran. Your post is incoherent.

94 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:23:49pm

re: #75 Dan G.

My mind keeps throwing up that question... and some Saudi would be at the top of my suspect list.

/speculation

Bet that would get some jihadi's rocks off.

95 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:24:36pm

re: #92 Bloodnok

lol. You didn't. Sorry for the confusion! The "actually" was to indicate my surprise at seeing how much of the paper was dedicated to just talking about LGF.

I was caught off guard too -- which is why I linked it here.

In the abstract it specifically talks about how it is examining the power of "one blog in particular (LGF) to take on the Mainstream Media".

96 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:25:07pm

re: #83 SteveC

UAW killed the Auto bailout.

Seems appropriate. They also killed the US auto industry.

97 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:25:25pm

re: #93 beermeister

No personal attack there, just questions... which you haven't answered.

98 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:25:36pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Sir, I once again salute you! You fisked that post quite effectively: demolishing the arguments in a decent and fairminded way.

Thanx much!

As an aside, it's amusing to watch my karma rise and fall, as first a supporter of evolutionary theory, then a creationist, walks through the last evo thread and dings posts in my debate with Buzz...;~)

99 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:25:53pm

We need another co-incidentally pro creationist (less than 100 comments) to show up and reinforce the first one. Totally unrehearsed and live.
Wouldn't know a sockpuppet, if lambchop ran up and bit them on the legs.

100 JohnAdams  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:26:23pm

Old song by Frank Allison:

"It seems the ones
Who don't believe in Evolution
Are the ones who look the most
like they could use some."

101 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:26:31pm

re: #93 beermeister

re: 44 Swamprat

No. I do like science. Evolution is a fringe science to me. I have a hilarious dinosaur story, but I can't post it because I would upset too many on this board.

re: 45 Dan G.

Why are you attacking me? I question the Big Bang Theory, although I think it is interesting. I also question the evidence for evolution. I think it is really suspect. There might be evolution and there might not and I really don't care. I'm not an evangelical and I don't believe in the Koran. Your post is incoherent.

Dan's post was coherent, you just didn't like what he said.

102 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:27:24pm

re: #83 SteveC

UAW killed the Auto bailout.

re: #96 CyanSnowHawk

Seems appropriate. They also killed the US auto industry.

When I think about the US auto makers in trouble, I always think back to this video.

103 Syrah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:27:54pm

re: #83 SteveC

UAW killed the Auto bailout.

The only bailout that I want to see is when Dodd and Frank post bail after they are arrested for debasing the banking system.

104 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:28:25pm

re: #93 beermeister

Go ahead and tell it. There's time.

105 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:28:49pm

re: #99 swamprat

Yes they usually tag team. This one seems stuck on "I doubt Evolution" without providing salient specifics. He seems not to understand the difference in bat and bird wing structure either. I wonder what else in the laundry list he will cycle through? Who knows, maybe woodpecker tongues are next.

106 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:28:54pm

re: #93 beermeister

Here are some more questions you won't answer. What evidence do you question? Why is it "really suspect"?

And, this might sound like an attack, but I think you are a LIAR when you say you don't care; else, why would you attempt to equate science and religion?

107 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:29:08pm

re: #93 beermeister

re: 44 Swamprat

No. I do like science. Evolution is a fringe science to me. I have a hilarious dinosaur story, but I can't post it because I would upset too many on this board.

re: 45 Dan G.

Why are you attacking me? I question the Big Bang Theory, although I think it is interesting. I also question the evidence for evolution. I think it is really suspect. There might be evolution and there might not and I really don't care. I'm not an evangelical and I don't believe in the Koran. Your post is incoherent.

Here's an idea...

108 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:29:18pm

re: #93 beermeister

No. I do like science. Evolution is a fringe science to me.

No, you don't know anything about critical thinking, scientific theory or logic or else you would never have even made this comment.

Did you steal Linc's account?

109 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:29:35pm
110 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:30:11pm
111 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:30:19pm

re: #109 MeatPopsicle
Peace out!

112 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:30:22pm

re: #64 Joo-LiZ

OT:

Just came across an "academic" looking article on fauxtography, and specifically LGF's role in the 2006 scandals.

The first pull-out quote is from Charles, and is correctly cited.

Linky to a paper on fauxtography

I thought some of you might find it interesting.

from your link:

Little Green Footballs, also known as “lgf: if you have to ask, it isn’t shock and awe” is the 97th most popular blog on the Internet [10]. The site is run by a quirky musician from the Los Angeles area.

now, why did Nikki have to throw in the word "quirky"?

113 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:30:30pm

re: #93 beermeister

re: 44 Swamprat

No. I do like science. Evolution is a fringe science to me. I have a hilarious dinosaur story, but I can't post it because I would upset too many on this board.

Methinks that for you, the definitions of fringe and consensus have been swapped.

re: 45 Dan G.

Why are you attacking me? I question the Big Bang Theory, although I think it is interesting. I also question the evidence for evolution. I think it is really suspect. There might be evolution and there might not and I really don't care. I'm not an evangelical and I don't believe in the Koran. Your post is incoherent.

The Big Bang theory is supported by the background echo radiation left over from it, and its red-shift coefficient has been used to date the age of the Universe at around 13.7 billion years.

Which evidence for evolution do you question and suspect? The vast fossil record? Lenski's repeatable observation of it under controlled conditions in his laboratory? Artifactual retroviral DNA, checkable and recheckable at will? DNA generally?

114 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:31:10pm

Charles, can we have a evo-thread body-count meter on the site?

115 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:31:12pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

The 'don't post about this' posts have been mutating.

116 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:31:48pm

re: #40 beermeister

Which part of evolutionary theory is undermined by the extinction of the dinosaurs?

Is it natural selection? or variation? Or random mutation?

Why is it even an issue? Could you elaborate?

117 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:32:05pm

re: #115 jaunte

Trying to adapt to the selective pressure... ;)

118 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:32:17pm

re: #115 jaunte

The 'don't post about this' posts have been mutating.

Oops. My bad.

119 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:33:16pm

re: #81 Cognito

see my #42

It is not disconnected -- it is vitally connected. The Islamists are working what "could" be common ground with their enemy to defeat from within. If they gain access here, it's not gonna look good for the allies.
Look at the ID/Creationist proponents...lookin' for allies to get their agenda, they will sleep with the enemy.

120 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:33:21pm

re: #102 gmsc

When I think about the US auto makers in trouble, I always think back to this video.

That's an awesome video, and quite an indictment of the UAW.

121 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:33:22pm

re: #117 Dan G.

That last one had some protective coloration, but it wasn't quite enough.

122 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:33:48pm

re: #96 CyanSnowHawk

Seems appropriate. They also killed the US auto industry.

I think you'll like this

123 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:34:01pm

re: #103 Syrah
Amen to that!

124 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:34:02pm

re: #93 beermeister

re: 44 Swamprat

No. I do like science. Evolution is a fringe science to me. I have a hilarious dinosaur story, but I can't post it because I would upset too many on this board.

Thats just insulting to call evolution a 'fringe' science. Scientists dont sit down and work for years on stuff based on 'fringe' methodologies. They work on stuff that is debated, tried, tested and either proven workable or not.

There are a litany of papers that exist expounding on whats been learnt and building on it.

You insult every person who has ever studied knowledge with your feeble attempt at backing up pseudo-scientific religious garbage as being related to reality and passing it off as a 'fringe' mentality.

You deserve every smackdown you get.

125 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:34:22pm

re: #111 Dan G.

Peace out!

Scratch one creationist!

LGF cookbook recipe #3: Logic-seared creationist, tenderized with cluebat.

126 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:34:24pm

re: #121 jaunte
They just can't seem to mutate away the stench that they bring...

127 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:35:11pm

re: 62 CyanSnowHawk

You scare me. Literally. How dare you make such an accusation. I have absolutely no interest in any of this creation garbage or any of this junk being taught in any schools. Could I not question the flimsy evidence of evolution without being attacked and put into some category that I am not a part of.

re: 70 MandyManners

Are you out of your mind? I said not teach evolution you fool. I fully support a science curriculum and technology curriculum. I think our schools would be better off if kids were taught more about physics and chemistry and medicine and computers instead of evolution. Do you? I hate the idea of teaching any religion or creation stuff in school and I am 100% against it.

128 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:35:26pm
129 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:35:57pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Scratch one creationist!

LGF cookbook recipe #3: Logic-seared creationist, tenderized with cluebat.

With a nice orange sauce...

130 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:36:17pm

re: #105 Thanos
I didn't know woodpeckers have tongues! Gee the things you learn out here!
:)

131 Syrah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:36:46pm

re: #128 MeatPopsicle

You don't post often. You missed some things.

Keep a cool head.

132 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:38:09pm

re: #130 realwest

I didn't know woodpeckers have tongues! Gee the things you learn out here!
:)

Yeah, there's a whole ICR or AIG thing that goes with woodpecker tongue evolution, thoroughly debunked now. They haven't tried that one again since a long thread a couple months back.

133 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:38:26pm

re: #127 beermeister

... Could I not question the flimsy evidence of evolution without being attacked and put into some category that I am not a part of.

Except for the one, simple, teeny weeny, little, oh so miniscule, maybe not even worth mentioning fact...

YOU HAVEN'T PSOTED ANYTHING TAHT WOULD SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT THAT THE EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION IS FLIMSY.

Other than that, how are you doing?

134 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:38:39pm

re: #128 MeatPopsicle

Looks like I spoke too soon. I think Charles has explained this before: It's his site, he'll delete what he likes. I have never felt censored here, except in matters of violence (and there I find the censorship reasonable).

GAZE

135 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:38:52pm

Comments telling me not to post about this topic, or complaining that it's "boring" will be deleted, as I have said at least 97 times.

136 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:39:35pm

re: #127 beermeister

re: 62 CyanSnowHawk

You scare me. Literally. How dare you make such an accusation. I have absolutely no interest in any of this creation garbage or any of this junk being taught in any schools. Could I not question the flimsy evidence of evolution without being attacked and put into some category that I am not a part of.

The evidence isn't flimsy. Check my post # 113 for a quick partial synopsis. Or click on the tag cloud in the left sidebar, then click on the word evolution, and spend a few days reading the articles that Charles has posted.

re: 70 MandyManners

Are you out of your mind? I said not teach evolution you fool. I fully support a science curriculum and technology curriculum. I think our schools would be better off if kids were taught more about physics and chemistry and medicine and computers instead of evolution. Do you? I hate the idea of teaching any religion or creation stuff in school and I am 100% against it.

You can't teach a credible 21st century bioscience curriculum in the absence of evolutionary theory. And evolutionary theory is empirical science, not dogmatic religion.

Be prepared to receive a Mandy Whack. Or twelve.

137 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:39:43pm

re: #122 gman

I think you'll like this

Seen it. Don't much agree with the shitty cars aspect, and I feel there are specific reasons that they cannot compete effectively against other brands. The biggest reason has the initials UAW.

138 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:39:46pm

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Except for the one, simple, teeny weeny, little, oh so miniscule, maybe not even worth mentioning fact...

YOU HAVEN'T PSOTED ANYTHING TAHT WOULD SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT THAT THE EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION IS FLIMSY.

Other than that, how are you doing?

Gosh, am I on the Lolcat site? Looking at my comment above, you would think I was typing a caption for a lolcat picture.

139 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:41:18pm

Hey Realwest...did you ever see this? #1381 to RW from hermit!

140 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:41:36pm

re: #136 Salamantis

The only thing Beermeister has mastered the the ability to avoid answer a direct question.

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:41:54pm

I'm going to expose myself as the newbie that I am, but what is GAZE?

142 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:42:10pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Gosh, am I on the Lolcat site? Looking at my comment above, you would think I was typing a caption for a lolcat picture.

WUT YOOZ ROTE WUZ GUD. AM HIDINGZ IN BASKIT.

143 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:42:11pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton
And playing the victim...

144 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:43:24pm

re: #127 beermeister

Evolution is science. You said it should not be taught in your No. 40.

145 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:44:01pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

GAZE - To glare with silent disapproval at a troll who has intentionally attempted to derail a topic. A sign of non-acknowledgment of a particularly offensive or inflammatory post, and a sign to other commenters not to "feed the troll" (pay attention to a disruptive commenter). Usually written all capitals.

146 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:44:30pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

I'm going to expose myself as the newbie that I am, but what is GAZE?

It's the same thing as the ignore button on your keyboard.

147 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:44:34pm

re: #127 beermeister

re: 62 CyanSnowHawk

You scare me. Literally. How dare you make such an accusation. I have absolutely no interest in any of this creation garbage or any of this junk being taught in any schools. Could I not question the flimsy evidence of evolution without being attacked and put into some category that I am not a part of.

re: 70 MandyManners

Are you out of your mind? I said not teach evolution you fool. I fully support a science curriculum and technology curriculum. I think our schools would be better off if kids were taught more about physics and chemistry and medicine and computers instead of evolution. Do you? I hate the idea of teaching any religion or creation stuff in school and I am 100% against it.

I scare you, huh? Of the two that you responded to in this comment, I am not the one you should be scared of.

You will find that I dare much when someone is obviously pulling my chain the way you are. So I say it again. You are a liar. Your posts are rife with evidence of it.

148 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:44:45pm

re: #127 beermeister

Dude, chemistry backs the theory of evolution 100%. If you teach more chemistry, you would basically be teaching more evolution. Same with physics.

But I think you have a point, we should just stop teaching biology because you think a theory is "flimsy".

NOT! Sorry, had to.

149 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:45:00pm

re: #127 beermeister

Oh, thanks for the gratuitous personal attack, dickhead.

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:45:24pm

re: #145 hermit

GAZE - To glare with silent disapproval at a troll who has intentionally attempted to derail a topic. A sign of non-acknowledgment of a particularly offensive or inflammatory post, and a sign to other commenters not to "feed the troll" (pay attention to a disruptive commenter). Usually written all capitals.

Thank you. It isn't trollish to attempt to derail a topic onto chocolate is it? I've already figured out that guns and puns are unstoppable.

151 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:45:41pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

I'm going to expose myself as the newbie that I am, but what is GAZE?

Here you go.

152 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:45:59pm

re: #149 MandyManners

Oh, thanks for the gratuitous personal attack, dickhead.

I knew it was coming...;~)

153 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:06pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

I'm going to expose myself as the newbie that I am, but what is GAZE?

When posters like beermiester drop in and posts comments, yet refuses to actually debate a topic, sometimes it is recommended to simple ignore his/her posts, otherwise know as gazing.

Poeple like beermiester are really looking for attention, not real debate. They are drama queens, trying to start arguments, deride a thread, hijack a thread, anything to get attention.

It's bet to treat people like this by...

GAZE

154 Steffan  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:15pm

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Here's a nifty museum: the Western Center Museum for Archaeology and Paleontology at Diamond Valley Lake.

It has a collection of fossils that were dug up when they were excavating for the reservoir. I especially like the Life on Earth Timeline they put up in the rafters. Very good place to take kids.

155 Macker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:17pm

re: #22 hermit

Their opponents: the Beer Bears!

156 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:28pm

re: #152 Salamantis

I knew it was coming...;~)

I held back.

157 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:30pm

re: #152 Salamantis
Is that a lewd pun? ;)

158 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:34pm

re: #135 Charles 98 times, Charles, but who's counting?! LOL!
I just do not understand why people (I assume they are all different people) insist on telling you what to post on YOUR blog. What the hell am I missing here?
Why do they keep doing it?

159 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:54pm
160 MeatPopsicle  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:46:58pm

re: #131 Syrah

You don't post often. You missed some things.

Keep a cool head.

I lurk often and post little.

I get tired of being yelled at and ridiculed for having an opinion or comment, but not marching lock step with the hive mind.

But, yeah, I guess I missed some things. Some things like warnings and the skyrocketed superior intellect around here. I suppose I should have known via common sense, though. My bad.

161 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:47:19pm

Beer, tell us your dinostory. I'm interested in your theories about dinosaurs since you are dismissing evolution so airily.

162 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:47:44pm

re: #157 Dan G.

Is that a lewd pun? ;)

No, I just saw the other shoe dangling off the big toe...;~)

163 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:47:49pm

re: #160 MeatPopsicle

I lurk often and post little.

I get tired of being yelled at and ridiculed for having an opinion or comment, but not marching lock step with the hive mind.

But, yeah, I guess I missed some things. Some things like warnings and the skyrocketed superior intellect around here. I suppose I should have known via common sense, though. My bad.

Smack!

GAZE

164 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:14pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

I'm going to expose myself as the newbie that I am, but what is GAZE?

Feel free to expose yourself, it's a wonderful tradition here.

GAZE is the proper response to a troll. As in, I'm gazing at you, but will not feed the troll.

165 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:20pm

re: #154 Steffan

Here's a nifty museum: the Western Center Museum for Archaeology and Paleontology at Diamond Valley Lake.

It has a collection of fossils that were dug up when they were excavating for the reservoir. I especially like the Life on Earth Timeline they put up in the rafters. Very good place to take kids.

I've been there. It's awesome and you're right, a great place to bring the kids.

166 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:25pm

re: #156 MandyManners

Heh.

167 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:41pm

re: #137 CyanSnowHawk
Yeah, I agree with that, but I also think we should remember that the top management tiers and Boards of Directors haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, either.

168 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:44pm

re: #161 Thanos

Beer, tell us your dinostory. I'm interested in your theories about dinosaurs since you are dismissing evolution so airily.

My bets are we'll get something along the lines of Brontosaurus. You know, that science doesnt do everything perfect .. so .. its gotta be ALL wrong.

169 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:50pm

re: #160 MeatPopsicle

Now where have I heard "Hive mind" before? Someone's been cribbing somewhere.

170 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:52pm

re: #150 EmmmieG

Thank you. It isn't trollish to attempt to derail a topic onto chocolate is it? I've already figured out that guns and puns are unstoppable.

I worked in a chocolate shop for quite awhile between gainful employments...I understand the NEED.

Just don't cause any truffle and you'll be fine!
COULDN'T HELP IT...PUN IS MY NEEED!

171 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:48:56pm

re: #160 MeatPopsicle

Want some cheese to go with that whine?

172 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:49:16pm

re: #161 Thanos

Beer, tell us your dinostory. I'm interested in your theories about dinosaurs since you are dismissing evolution so airily.

Yeah; if he provides a web reference, Charles might get another EVO post out of it...;~)

173 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:49:44pm

re: #127 beermeister

It seems that the tactic is to admit that creationism/ID is baloney, but insist that evolution is baloney too. If they're going to teach one baloney what's the harm in adding another one?

Pathetic, and totally transparent.

174 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:49:51pm
175 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:49:55pm

Best answer so far; "My science discipline is top secret."

No toppers yet.

176 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:50:12pm

re: #139 hermit
No, I didn't - LOL! That was pretty funny ok. Uh, what cheese?!
:)

177 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:50:25pm

re: #169 Thanos

Now where have I heard "Hive mind" before? Someone's been cribbing somewhere.

I'd say his beelief was challenged.

178 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:50:57pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

I'd say his beelief was challenged.

You win more arguments with honey...

179 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:51:06pm

re: #173 Jimmah
Yea, they're losing and begging for a "draw"/compromise (which would actually be a BIGGER victory for them).

180 little boomer  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:51:09pm

Hampshire College-pass the bong please-this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

181 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:51:49pm

It's late, I'd love to hang out for the dinostory, but tomorrow's going to be a bzzzy day.

182 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:51:53pm

re: #178 Thanos

Is this the hive mind waxing philosophical?

183 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:52:03pm

re: #160 MeatPopsicle

Meat-Pout-sicle.

184 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:52:05pm

re: #176 realwest

The cheeseball you put in your coat LOL! Back on Thanksgiving! {smoochas}!

185 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:52:42pm

re: #182 jaunte

Is this the hive mind waxing philosophical?

Well we could pollenate some new thought...

186 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:52:45pm

re: #154 Steffan

Here's a nifty museum: the Western Center Museum for Archaeology and Paleontology at Diamond Valley Lake.

You know, the funny thing is, in my very small apartment (like the size of a motel suite) I have all the proof one would need to explain evolution, the age of the earth and our solar system and other topics of earth and space science.

I have meteorites, fossils, rocks, artifacts, solid, you can hold it in your hand, stuff that is as old as 4.6 billion years. You can't make it disappear, you can't make believe it doesn't exist, the proof is right in front of my face.

It only takes a one day trip to a museum like you linked to to learn the truth.

187 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:52:52pm

re: #182 jaunte

Is this the hive mind waxing philosophical?

I HEARD that!

188 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:53:00pm

re: #182 jaunte

Is this the hive mind waxing philosophical?

Just drone-ing on and on as usual.

189 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:53:05pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon
OUCH! That stings!

190 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:53:38pm

re: #160 MeatPopsicle

He called out the hive mind, he's onto us!

Classic, ten people openly call him out and suddenly a site with thousands of members is a hive mind. Buddy, you said something that upsets people on this site, you said something pretty stupid too, expect people to speak up. But just because they want to take issue with you, doesn't mean there's a conspiracy hive mind that wants to suppress your thoughts. (Which I'm pretty sure you're thinking right now)

191 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:54:04pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Work with children for ANY length of time...evolution becomes obvious.

192 Syrah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:54:06pm

re: #160 MeatPopsicle

You should not be taking this so personally.

Sometimes it is a good idea to step back from a confrontation and think about whether or not it is worth perusing.

In this case, this is not a free-for-all blog were anything goes as it did with the old and now defunct Yahoo BBS boards.

Keep a cool head.

193 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:54:31pm

re: #185 Thanos

Well we could pollenate some new thought...

As long as we don't Bumble our conclusions.

194 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:01pm

re: #190 SWPaul

well said, SWPaul - glad you're on the Lizard Team!

195 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:13pm

re: #190 SWPaul

He called out the hive mind, he's onto us!

Classic, ten people openly call him out and suddenly a site with thousands of members is a hive mind. Buddy, you said something that upsets people on this site, you said something pretty stupid too, expect people to speak up. But just because they want to take issue with you, doesn't mean there's a conspiracy hive mind that wants to suppress your thoughts. (Which I'm pretty sure you're thinking right now)

He's sculpting a tinfoil turban as we speak...;~)

/gotta watch those evil hair rays

196 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:18pm

re: #182 jaunte

Is this the hive mind waxing philosophical?

WE UNDERSTAND

197 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:19pm

re: #171 MandyManners
Well if you believe Hermit at #139 I have some cheese for you to give to him!

198 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:31pm

time for me to catch some zzz's g'nite all

199 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:45pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

As long as we don't Bumble our conclusions.

Wasp, exactly, are you insinuating?

200 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:55:48pm

re: #167 realwest

Yeah, I agree with that, but I also think we should remember that the top management tiers and Boards of Directors haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, either.

You're right they haven't. There are plenty of other reasons that they are hurting. Not the least of which is an over reliance on the truck and SUV segment for their profits.

201 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:56:49pm

re: #199 hermit

Wasp, exactly, are you insinuating?

That's a-pollen-g.

202 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:57:24pm

re: #179 Dan G.

Yea, they're losing and begging for a "draw"/compromise (which would actually be a BIGGER victory for them).

They don't care how they do it - as long as it gets it in the classroom. They'll call their own position a hopeless sack of nonsense if that's what it takes, without breaking sweat.

203 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:57:40pm

re: #184 hermit Oh, uh, that wasn't me - that was someone else! {smoochas} back atcha!

204 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:57:41pm

re: #199 hermit

Wasp, exactly, are you insinuating?

BOO!

Hey, it just occurred to me! Haven't there been numerous requests for a BOO BEE thread lately?

205 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:57:48pm

re: #201 Bloodnok

That's a-pollen-g.

Stamen in your seats everyone, this ain't goin' nowhere.

206 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:58:09pm

A question for the lizards. How many of you have gone and read some layman accessible books about the science/history behind the theory of evolution? How many have read "On the Origin of Species"?

207 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:58:19pm

re: #205 hermit

Stamen in your seats everyone, this ain't goin' nowhere.

You're quick, like a pistil!

208 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:58:20pm

re: #199 hermit

Wasp, exactly, are you insinuating?

That trolls have a lot of Gall.

209 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:58:26pm

re: #204 gmsc

BOO!

Hey, it just occurred to me! Haven't there been numerous requests for a BOO BEE thread lately?

I can oblige!

210 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:58:29pm

re: #180 little boomer
"Hampshire College" ?

211 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:59:01pm

re: #204 gmsc

BOO!

Hey, it just occurred to me! Haven't there been numerous requests for a BOO BEE thread lately?

So sad, y'know...threads just can't contain them. Steel polymers, maybe...but threads just break down.

212 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:59:08pm

K...bedtime for me. Have a good one, folks:)

213 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:59:24pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

That trolls have a lot of Gall.

Well, I know they have a lot of stones.

214 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:59:37pm

re: #202 Jimmah
Equally in, or equally out. They're goal is to have it on equal footing one way or the other. I just hope those in decision making positions can see such "concessions" for what they are.

215 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 9:59:44pm

re: #207 gmsc

You're quick, like a pistil!

Yeah, I'm a pistil -- when I'm loaded!

216 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:00:11pm

re: #211 hermit

So sad, y'know...threads just can't contain them. Steel polymers, maybe...but threads just break down.

Boobie threads have a way of busting out.

217 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:00:28pm

re: #195 Salamantis

He's sculpting a tinfoil turban as we speak...;~)

/gotta watch those evil hair rays

If you cut the top off of a Jiffy Pop Popcorn when you are done popping it, the tinfoil turban is pretty easy to make.

218 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:00:45pm

re: #215 hermit

Yeah, I'm a pistil -- when I'm loaded!

But do you have stamen-a?

219 little boomer  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:01:22pm

re: #210 realwest

Here’s an interesting interview with Salman Hameed, an assistant professor of Integrated Science and Humanities at Massachusett’s Hampshire College: How to stop creationism gaining a hold in Islam.

Makes Umass, Amherst College and Smith look like Prussian Military Colleges.

220 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:01:30pm

re: #217 CyanSnowHawk

If you cut the top off of a Jiffy Pop Popcorn when you are done popping it, the tinfoil turban is pretty easy to make.

And you can hang it up by the handle when you are not using it (which should only be when you are showering).

221 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:01:49pm

Don't everybody leave; I just cracked open a bottle of '05 Yellowtail Chardonnay!

222 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:01:55pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

I have meteorites, fossils, rocks, artifacts, solid, you can hold it in your hand, stuff that is as old as 4.6 billion years. You can't make it disappear, you can't make believe it doesn't exist, the proof is right in front of my face.
It only takes a one day trip to a museum like you linked to to learn the truth.

looks like i missed a lot - trying to catch up...
just curious; what is it about a fossil that you hold in your hand that would make you think that the originating creature genetically morphed from another species? especially since no-one has ever claimed that they have observed one species of any creature spontaneously evolving into another species?

223 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:02:00pm

re: #219 little boomer
And...

224 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:02:10pm

re: #205 hermit
Uh, my apologies - just checked my coat from Thanksgiving and, uh, well, it's not a pretty sight!

225 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:02:18pm

re: 106 Dan G.

My first sentence was figurative, not literal. Really. My point is I believe in mathmatical proofs. Anything after that is questionable to me. I must say I'm shocked at the response to my post. The nastiness is hard to comprehend. A response along the lines of some good explanations and arguments for evolution would be cool, which some people posted. However, others just attacked me like it was some crazy witch trial, which is far from scientific. I'm not a fan of the Old Testament and I don't support creationism. I don't understand these attacks.

226 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:02:33pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

You know, the funny thing is, in my very small apartment (like the size of a motel suite) I have all the proof one would need to explain evolution, the age of the earth and our solar system and other topics of earth and space science.

I have meteorites, fossils, rocks, artifacts, solid, you can hold it in your hand, stuff that is as old as 4.6 billion years. You can't make it disappear, you can't make believe it doesn't exist, the proof is right in front of my face.

It only takes a one day trip to a museum like you linked to to learn the truth.

Let's not forget the speed of light.. It is unchanging and we can measure time and distance with it..
There was a great big dust up about 6 months or year ago about the new speed of light theory.. It said that at the big bang the speed of light was faster than today..Because it's speed has been slowing down for Billions of years it would explain why it appears today that galaxies are flying away from us at a faster rate...big time debate! you talk about getting the popcorn out when geeks fight..

227 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:02:49pm

re: #218 Salamantis

But do you have stamen-a?

Leaf that be, bud.

228 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:03:07pm

re: #220 Walter L. Newton

And you can hang it up by the handle when you are not using it (which should only be when you are showering).

No. That's when they get ya.

229 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:03:17pm

re: #221 Salamantis

Don't everybody leave; I just cracked open a bottle of '05 Yellowtail Chardonnay!

Are you removing wallpaper?

230 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:03:35pm

re: #229 hermit

Are you removing wallpaper?

ha

231 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:03:35pm

re: #219 little boomer
AH, sorry - got caught up in the thread and forgot that!
Thankew!

232 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:03:57pm

re: #221 Salamantis

Don't everybody leave; I just cracked open a bottle of '05 Yellowtail Chardonnay!

I'd have a glass, but I can only stay a short time longer. I have to get up at 5:45 this morning (it's past midnight here in Illinois).

233 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:04:04pm

re: #206 Dan G.

A question for the lizards. How many of you have gone and read some layman accessible books about the science/history behind the theory of evolution? How many have read "On the Origin of Species"?

Read it years ago in college, and I now have it on my Kindle for rereading.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

234 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:04:05pm

re: #217 CyanSnowHawk

If you cut the top off of a Jiffy Pop Popcorn when you are done popping it, the tinfoil turban is pretty easy to make.

Why use just one? For that matter, why cut the foil off?

235 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:04:37pm

re: #228 Bloodnok

No. That's when they get ya.

Have to cut off the handle -- with snips.
/read that somewhere...

236 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:04:39pm

Here come the creationists.

237 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:04:51pm

re: #217 CyanSnowHawk

If you cut the top off of a Jiffy Pop Popcorn when you are done popping it, the tinfoil turban is pretty easy to make.

someone took that idea to a new level

238 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:05:06pm

re: #225 beermeister

re: 106 Dan G.

My first sentence was figurative, not literal. Really. My point is I believe in mathmatical proofs. Anything after that is questionable to me. I must say I'm shocked at the response to my post. The nastiness is hard to comprehend. A response along the lines of some good explanations and arguments for evolution would be cool, which some people posted. However, others just attacked me like it was some crazy witch trial, which is far from scientific. I'm not a fan of the Old Testament and I don't support creationism. I don't understand these attacks.

Why don't you support the teaching of science?

239 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:05:18pm

Re #93: re: #225 beermeister

You still haven't given us that funny dinosaur story you hinted at. Scroll up to look at the rules, and if you aren't crossing one, go ahead.

240 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:06:27pm

re: #225 beermeister

re: 106 Dan G.

My first sentence was figurative, not literal. Really. My point is I believe in mathmatical proofs. Anything after that is questionable to me. I must say I'm shocked at the response to my post. The nastiness is hard to comprehend. A response along the lines of some good explanations and arguments for evolution would be cool, which some people posted. However, others just attacked me like it was some crazy witch trial, which is far from scientific. I'm not a fan of the Old Testament and I don't support creationism. I don't understand these attacks.

It may not be that way if you were not acting like a crazy witch.

241 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:06:45pm

re: #234 gmsc

Why use just one? For that matter, why cut the foil off?

re: #237 gman

someone took that idea to a new level

GMTA!

242 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:07:09pm

re: #61 Charles

It's no more bizarre than the creationist talking point that the theory of evolution led to the Third Reich.

In fact, it's exactly as bizarre, and exactly as dishonest.

You're right in the sense that the connection is not simple, immediate and proximate. And other factors are involved and many of these more important. I take your word for it that Hitler doesn't refer to Darwin in Mein Kampf. But the influence of Darwinism on other top or mid-level Nazis or on the German thought is not easily discounted.

Here's a quote from Fritz Stern's The Politics of Cultural Despair, A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology:

"Darwin's evolutionary theory had an incomparable impact on European culture. After Darwin, the fact of evolution could no longer be denied, and the popular imagination, long prepared for such a theory, extended it to ever new fields. The Germanic critics, despite their hostility to science and materialism, were influenced by the various strands of Darwinism. Moeller [Moeller van den Bruk], as we saw, believed that the theory of evolution had destroyed all moral absolutes, all truths, all timeless religions. The truth of Darwin, Moeller felt, had swept aside the moral truths of earlier times and thus prepared the way for the triumph of relativism. His own prescription for a new ethics incorporated the evolutionary principle, and he tacitly accepted the belief of the social Darwinists that the laws of nature and of society were identical. Lagarde [Paul de Lagarde] and Moeller also resorted to the rhetoric of social Darwinism and justified the role of struggle by appealing to the dubious principle of natural selection. The idea of the struggle for survival was transposed by them to the international realm and turned into an exhortation to war, because war would select and ennoble the superior people. Actually social Darwinism was a new and "scientific" guise for their romantic sense of the nobility of struggle and self-conquest, and in this curious mixture of romantic heroism and mechanistic materialism they were once again anticipating the later, and more dangerous, concoctions of the National Socialists." (pp. 282-283)

My point, Charles, is not to discredit evolutionary theory or just to vindicate Ben Stein, but to get the intellectual history right. That may be uncomfortable in the midst of polemic, but not trying to get it right would also be dishonest.

243 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:07:26pm

re: #241 gmsc

GMTA!

beat me to it, LOL

244 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:07:34pm

Here we go again.

245 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:08:27pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

I'd have a glass, but I can only stay a short time longer. I have to get up at 5:45 this morning (it's past midnight here in Illinois).

Pay off the right Democrat and it could be 9PM again.

246 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:08:49pm

Proof

The thing with creationists is they never look small (or micro...) for that matter. They look at monkeys and say, "Wow, we aren't the same! I just disproved evolution! Lolz!" Or they see dinosaurs and think up other crazy stuff.

But the tree of life, which begun with the -philes (thermophiles, etc), and continues until today, is a great way to look at evolution. The end being animals on the eukaryotic side, and proteobacteria on the bacteria side (notice how archaea, prokaryotic cells, were the -phile beginnings). Seriously, if you want to learn more about evolution, you don't have to immediately jump into Darwin. Microbiology, in my opinion, is a terrific start concerning the theory of evolution.

Plus, seriously, Creationists, Darwin isn't the only man who has pushed this theory; why only attack him. Any flaws you find in his work are probably due to the fact he wrote his damn theory many many years ago and didn't have the technology or time to research the theory completely. Take a more modern look into life.

End rant. Apologies.

247 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:08:58pm

re: #222 stretch

looks like i missed a lot - trying to catch up...
just curious; what is it about a fossil that you hold in your hand that would make you think that the originating creature genetically morphed from another species? especially since no-one has ever claimed that they have observed one species of any creature spontaneously evolving into another species?

My comment was more general in nature. I am talking about what science knows about fossils and how it relates to evolution. I am talking about the beginnings of our solar system, I am talking about artifacts which bear on how man has advanced. I was making a general statement that anyone can obtain solid proofs of all this science, and own it themselves, touch it, study it, learn more about it.

This is something that our educational system, especially in grammar school, has stopped doing, stopped really teaching hard science. I remember when I was always bring home this science "thing" or that science "thing," a magnet, a fossil, a piece of quartz, all kinds of items that made me want to learn more.

My statement was not meant to solve the whole issue.

248 itellu3times  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:08:59pm

Islamic creationism, am I supposed to be shocked?

Islamic * x = 0

249 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:09:11pm

i work with some astronomer types, and I posted a bet on my cube wall: $20k + 5% interest over 20 years that NO extraterrestrial life would ever be discoverd. Same bet also, that you would NOT win the lottery in the next 20 years (thinking that if they did win, they wouldn't bother to collect). I was really hoping that if one did sign up for one bet or the other, that I could ask them why they thought their chances were better.

Only one taker in the whole crowd, some dood named "Wall_E"

250 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:09:34pm

re: #225 beermeister

re: 106 Dan G.

My first sentence was figurative, not literal. Really. My point is I believe in mathmatical proofs. Anything after that is questionable to me. I must say I'm shocked at the response to my post. The nastiness is hard to comprehend. A response along the lines of some good explanations and arguments for evolution would be cool, which some people posted. However, others just attacked me like it was some crazy witch trial, which is far from scientific. I'm not a fan of the Old Testament and I don't support creationism. I don't understand these attacks.

I trust that you found my responses to be informative. They sincerely answered your rhetorical-sounding questions, briefly glossed over the massive empirical evidence for evolutionary theory, and directed you to where you could read much more.

But here are a few additional articles that might interest you:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

[Link: www.naturalhistorymag.com...]

[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

And of course, there's [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

although it seems to be down now.

Bon Appetit!

251 hermit  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:09:37pm

Going to fire up the grill! BBIAM!
/somebody get the marinade ready! Red Wine & Peppercorn go well with gamey buttocks

252 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:10:03pm

re: #206 Dan G.

A question for the lizards. How many of you have gone and read some layman accessible books about the science/history behind the theory of evolution? How many have read "On the Origin of Species"?

I've read three books on the subject since it came up on LGF, and countless websites. Haven't read "Origins" yet.

253 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:10:03pm

re: #225 beermeister

You made claims. You didn't back them up. You got called out on it. Are you saying that in response to your vague misgivings of evolution that we should spend our time telling you everything we know? That's ridiculous. You made a very specific statement about evolution and the flimsiness of the evidence and have yet to provide anything substantive. You are being treated according to how you are acting; if you have actual knowledge of the theory of evolution, and have actual criticisms of the empirical observations or the explanations behind how those observations support the theory of evolution, then, if and only after will you be treated with a modicum of respect. Otherwise you smell like, and will be treated like, a shilling troll.

254 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:10:13pm

re: #236 Charles

Here come the creationists.

Sounds like a promo for a new series on Sci-Fi.

255 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:10:31pm

re: #225 beermeister

re: 106 Dan G.

My first sentence was figurative, not literal. Really. My point is I believe in mathmatical proofs. Anything after that is questionable to me. I must say I'm shocked at the response to my post. The nastiness is hard to comprehend. A response along the lines of some good explanations and arguments for evolution would be cool, which some people posted. However, others just attacked me like it was some crazy witch trial, which is far from scientific. I'm not a fan of the Old Testament and I don't support creationism. I don't understand these attacks.

Salamantis has not been nasty he just dismantled your argument. Mathematical proof are hard to come by in evolution, and they would not really tell the story anyway. Look at the fossil record: feathers, for instance, have fairly clear emergence the record, especially with some of the recent China finds. The Field Museum does a very good job of showcasing these new finds and talking about how there fit into the record. Well worth a look if you are ever in Chicago.

256 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:11:57pm

re: #239 EmmmieG

Re #93:

You still haven't given us that funny dinosaur story you hinted at. Scroll up to look at the rules, and if you aren't crossing one, go ahead.

I do believe we can retire the rookie status of this lizard.

257 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:12:37pm

re: #221 Salamantis

Don't everybody leave; I just cracked open a bottle of '05 Yellowtail Chardonnay!

Yellowtail's not too bad.

258 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:12:38pm

Did Darwin lead to Hitler?

In a word, no. It's dishonest and misleading in the extreme to make this connection.

259 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:13:23pm

re: #244 Charles

Here we go again.

I did say it would be a lively thread in my email this afternoon.

260 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:13:27pm

re: #245 CyanSnowHawk

Pay off the right Democrat and it could be 9PM again.

Nope, sorry. Even in Chicago, the Machine is not a time machine. Rather it is a time-wasting machine (as witness the Hired Truck Scandal).

261 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:13:33pm

re: #242 chakal

"Darwin's evolutionary theory had an incomparable impact on European culture... and in this curious mixture of romantic heroism and mechanistic materialism they were once again anticipating the later, and more dangerous, concoctions of the National Socialists." (pp. 282-283)

Gee, it couldn't of had anything to do with almost 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism in Europe and especially in Germany, could it?

262 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:13:54pm

re: #249 stretch

Considering you and they will be dead before we ever manage to get to Enceladus, you probably won't have to pay the bet off.

[Link: www.universetoday.com...]

263 itellu3times  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:14:38pm

re: #206 Dan G.

A question for the lizards. How many of you have gone and read some layman accessible books about the science/history behind the theory of evolution? How many have read "On the Origin of Species"?

I've read quite a few modern books, layman and better, but can't recall actually reading Darwin, don't think I have it in the house.

264 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:14:53pm

re: #257 Sharmuta

Yellowtail's not too bad.

Yes.. It is a good wine at a fair price..

265 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:15:07pm

re: #261 Walter L. Newton
Or with the Great Depression or with the Treaty of Versailles or...well, you get the idea.
I'm truly sick to death of this Darwin led to Hitler bullshit.

266 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:15:18pm

re: #242 chakal

You're right in the sense that the connection is not simple, immediate and proximate. And other factors are involved and many of these more important. I take your word for it that Hitler doesn't refer to Darwin in Mein Kampf. But the influence of Darwinism on other top or mid-level Nazis or on the German thought is not easily discounted.

Here's a quote from Fritz Stern's The Politics of Cultural Despair, A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology:

"Darwin's evolutionary theory had an incomparable impact on European culture. After Darwin, the fact of evolution could no longer be denied, and the popular imagination, long prepared for such a theory, extended it to ever new fields. The Germanic critics, despite their hostility to science and materialism, were influenced by the various strands of Darwinism. Moeller [Moeller van den Bruk], as we saw, believed that the theory of evolution had destroyed all moral absolutes, all truths, all timeless religions. The truth of Darwin, Moeller felt, had swept aside the moral truths of earlier times and thus prepared the way for the triumph of relativism. His own prescription for a new ethics incorporated the evolutionary principle, and he tacitly accepted the belief of the social Darwinists that the laws of nature and of society were identical. Lagarde [Paul de Lagarde] and Moeller also resorted to the rhetoric of social Darwinism and justified the role of struggle by appealing to the dubious principle of natural selection. The idea of the struggle for survival was transposed by them to the international realm and turned into an exhortation to war, because war would select and ennoble the superior people. Actually social Darwinism was a new and "scientific" guise for their romantic sense of the nobility of struggle and self-conquest, and in this curious mixture of romantic heroism and mechanistic materialism they were once again anticipating the later, and more dangerous, concoctions of the National Socialists." (pp. 282-283)

My point, Charles, is not to discredit evolutionary theory or just to vindicate Ben Stein, but to get the intellectual history right. That may be uncomfortable in the midst of polemic, but not trying to get it right would also be dishonest.

The main horse that Hitler saddled up and rode to the Holocaust was ancient and deeply entrenched Christian antisemitism. Martin Luther himself penned a tome entitled On the Jews and Their Lies. Here is one of the premier Christian sites on the internet, acknowledging the sad history of Christian collusion with the Reich:

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

They don't want it to be forgotten. Because they don't want their community to ever again fall for a charismatic politician who seductively winks in their direction, like Hitler did in 1930's Germany.

267 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:15:50pm
How is evolution perceived in Muslim countries?

If you ask the question of whether you accept evolution or not, we find that a large portion of people, vast majorities, reject evolution. Compared to the US, where 40% are comfortable with evolution, in the Muslim countries that would go down to 10, 15, or 20%. In Turkey, one of the more secular Muslim countries, the level is between 22 and 25%. ...


I wonder how this figure correlates to the literacy rate in muslim countries. When a whacked out Imam is the only one in the mosque who can read, he is going to set the tone for everyone to follow. Sheep going off a cliff.

268 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:16:42pm

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

okay - got it.

speaking of hard science - i remember reading stories on Java Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Haekels embryonic pictures, etc... From what I recall, those all turned out to be hoaxes, promulgated by scientists who were trying to make a name for themselves. It seemed that observational and experimental science had been replaced by something else.

269 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:16:46pm

re: #257 Sharmuta

Yellowtail's not too bad.

Knob Creek Bourbon here.

270 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:17:03pm

Now that the late-entering creationists are here, can anyone explain what stops micro-evolution from becoming macro-evolution?

271 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:17:09pm

re: #249 stretch

Were you the guy at Radio Systems that had that article about irreducible complexity posted on his cubicle wall for so long?

272 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:17:33pm

re: #266 Salamantis

The main horse that Hitler saddled up and rode to the Holocaust was ancient and deeply entrenched Christian antisemitism. Martin Luther himself penned a tome entitled On the Jews and Their Lies. Here is one of the premier Christian sites on the internet, acknowledging the sad history of Christian collusion with the Reich:

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

They don't want it to be forgotten. Because they don't want their community to ever again fall for a charismatic politician who seductively winks in their direction, like Hitler did in 1930's Germany.

And then betrays them. Hitler used Christians, but he loathed Christianity and attacked it whenever he could.

273 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:17:39pm

re: #268 stretch

How original.

274 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:17:45pm

re: #258 Charles

Did Darwin lead to Hitler?

In a word, no. It's dishonest and misleading in the extreme to make this connection.

So we're up to act III

275 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:04pm

re: #268 stretch

okay - got it.

speaking of hard science - i remember reading stories on Java Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Haekels embryonic pictures, etc... From what I recall, those all turned out to be hoaxes, promulgated by scientists who were trying to make a name for themselves. It seemed that observational and experimental science had been replaced by something else.

Pathetic. Why don't you pull out some more Answers in Genesis talking points while you're at it?

276 itellu3times  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:10pm

re: #242 chakal

Darwin was never Hegel.

Some idiot Nazis citing Darwin is meaningless, if they don't know wtf they're talking about. National socialism owes more to Marx than Darwin.

277 HoosierHoops  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:18pm

re: #258 Charles

Did Darwin lead to Hitler?

In a word, no. It's dishonest and misleading in the extreme to make this connection.

uh oh Charles.. You just gave the History Channel an idea for sweeps week.

278 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:25pm

re: #266 Salamantis

We're on the same wave length. See my re: #261...

But these sorts will just come back with things like "Well, they weren't really Christian."

279 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:26pm

re: #268 stretch
Wow! You've disproved evolution with that one. You should take that argument to Stockholm and collect "The Prize".

280 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:50pm

re: #236 Charles

Here come the creationists.

It's tough to take any pleasure in the debate with creationists, for me at least. I know many creationists. I mean many. And they are for the most part wonderful, big-hearted people. They -- the people I know, at least -- don't go around comparing Darwin to Hitler. Or anyone else to Hitler, for that matter.

Yeah, I think they're mistaken on the facts of the universe. But I don't believe it's a matter of morality or ill intent, and it's tough for me to get worked up about it.

Just my feeling.

281 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:18:59pm

re: #266 Salamantis

Hitler was not a Christian.

282 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:20:07pm

re: #222 stretch

looks like i missed a lot - trying to catch up...
just curious; what is it about a fossil that you hold in your hand that would make you think that the originating creature genetically morphed from another species? especially since no-one has ever claimed that they have observed one species of any creature spontaneously evolving into another species?

Try placing a whole bunch of them in a line - older to newer - and seeing how the shapes graduate into each other. They've done it with crawling-out-of-the-sea fossils. They've done it with returning-to-the-sea fossils. And they've done it with conquering-the-air fossils.

283 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:20:09pm

Adnan Oktar is probably lying when he puts in Darwin's mouth the nonsense about Darwin having called the Turks barbarians and lower races to be eliminated.

I just word-searched Origin of Species and Descent of Man, and it's not there. (Gutenberg Project, thank you!)

One would have to go through the complete works to nail this, but it is preposterous on its face that Darwin would have said anything of the sort.

All our peoples were barbarians to start with. Europeans were rather late to the game of civilization, and if the Turks were not first on the scene either, what of it? They are not now, and were not in Darwin's day, barbarians.

In any case, one must strain to find racial differences between Europeans and Turks. Peas in a pod, we are, compared to the differences between Indians and Malays and Mongols and Pygmies etc. Darwin knew all about these differences, and it cannot have escaped his notice how minimal any differences between say Turks and Greeks are.

284 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:20:17pm

re: #262 jaunte
well, these guys are after exosolar planets - looking closely for chlorophyll lines in their spectrographs, also for methane, carbon dioxide etc.. So they think they can find evidence without actual "contact" - but not willing to back it up

285 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:20:20pm

re: #268 stretch

It seemed that way, but real science kept on going. It was other scientists who exposed those hoaxes, not creationists. Evolutionary Science is actually fairly good at policing itself in the mid-term. Short-term lies do sometimes break in, but they are usually found and booted.

286 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:20:26pm

re: #274 swamprat

Kind of wonder when someone had to bring out the evolution = Nazism theory. Kind of makes you wonder how these people actually function in society.

287 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:21:06pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

Nope, sorry. Even in Chicago, the Machine is not a time machine. Rather it is a time-wasting machine (as witness the Hired Truck Scandal).

I said nothing about moving through time, but adjusting the clock to something like say, Chicago/Alaska Time instead of EST is not out of the question.

288 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:21:12pm

re: #273 Sharmuta
well, i thought so. i certainly didn't copy it from somewhere

289 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:21:36pm

re: #282 Salamantis
Not to mention that DNA's causal relationship to body patterning and that changing the DNA can change the body pattern.

290 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:21:47pm

re: #286 SWPaul

I've been drinking today so please excuse any mistakes in my grammar. But it was a celebration night tonight.

291 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:21:49pm

re: #282 Salamantis
no please, not homology. really?

292 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:22:15pm

re: #284 stretch

They did find carbon dioxide.

Carbon Dioxide Detected on Distant Planet

293 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:22:24pm

re: #268 stretch

okay - got it.

speaking of hard science - i remember reading stories on Java Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Haekels embryonic pictures, etc... From what I recall, those all turned out to be hoaxes, promulgated by scientists who were trying to make a name for themselves. It seemed that observational and experimental science had been replaced by something else.

And I remember William F. Albright, who "proved" all sorts of things about the bible using archeology. Only problem was, he was wrong most of the time.

But, we didn't know that then, when he was making so many discoveries.

I know all about the "hoaxes" you mentioned above, now why don't you do a little research on one of the "kings" of biblical archeology (and all the mistakes he made)

294 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:22:33pm

re: #288 stretch

well, i thought so. i certainly didn't copy it from somewhere

You spewed the same nonsense in a previous thread, and it was debunked. But here you are again, spewing the same nonsense again as if nothing ever happened, parrot-like.

295 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:23:07pm

re: #288 stretch

well, i thought so. i certainly didn't copy it from somewhere

Well then, you thought wrong.

296 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:23:12pm

re: #280 Cognito

It's tough to take any pleasure in the debate with creationists, for me at least. I know many creationists. I mean many. And they are for the most part wonderful, big-hearted people. They -- the people I know, at least -- don't go around comparing Darwin to Hitler. Or anyone else to Hitler, for that matter.

Yeah, I think they're mistaken on the facts of the universe. But I don't believe it's a matter of morality or ill intent, and it's tough for me to get worked up about it.

Just my feeling.

You don't need to enjoy a thing to make it necessary, Cog. We can't let bogus talking points go unanswered.

297 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:23:16pm

I'm certain this took millions of years to carve out.

298 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:23:26pm

re: #284 stretch

Are you sure about that search for chlorophyll lines in their spectrographs?

299 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:23:48pm

re: #249 stretch

i work with some astronomer types, and I posted a bet on my cube wall: $20k + 5% interest over 20 years that NO extraterrestrial life would ever be discoverd. Same bet also, that you would NOT win the lottery in the next 20 years (thinking that if they did win, they wouldn't bother to collect). I was really hoping that if one did sign up for one bet or the other, that I could ask them why they thought their chances were better.

Only one taker in the whole crowd, some dood named "Wall_E"

The next twenty years it won't be a very good bet. We're going to have the ability to discern smaller planets around other stars, and sooner or later, chances are there'll be another one with a lot of O2 oxygen molecules in the atmosphere.

That would be pretty much a clincher.

300 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:24:00pm

re: #297 Racer X

I'm certain this took millions of years to carve out.

Nope- it was all the Great Flood.

/creationist mode off

301 itellu3times  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:24:12pm

re: #297 Racer X

I'm certain this took millions of years to carve out.

Obviously, you never read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy!

302 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:24:29pm

re: #285 Dark_Falcon
right, but in the meantime what if there were (just supposing) a good number of PhD dissertations written with those hoaxes as core supporting material - then we should see at least a few retractions, and at least a few PhD's sending those lambskins back to their maker. I just don't recall reading about a single one.

303 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:24:37pm

re: #294 Charles

You spewed the same nonsense in a previous thread, and it was debunked. But here you are again, spewing the same nonsense again as if nothing ever happened, parrot-like.

Awk! Polly want a clue!

304 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:16pm

re: #297 Racer X

As I learned, that was created by Paul Bunyon dragging his ax behind him making that gash in the Earth. Am I wrong?

305 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:22pm

re: #284 stretch

well, these guys are after exosolar planets - looking closely for chlorophyll lines in their spectrographs, also for methane, carbon dioxide etc.. So they think they can find evidence without actual "contact" - but not willing to back it up

Hey Stretch, I have meteorite specimens in my collection that have amino acids that ARE NOT FOUND ON EARTH. If you really understand science, you will understand the implication in that. Figure it out for yourself.

306 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:36pm

Could we maybe have the Christians creationists here not do the stereotypical equivalent of tap-dancing on a watermelon rind while eating fried chicken? Please? This is embarrassing and humiliating.

307 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:37pm

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

good - now bibilical archeology has at least as good a standing as the evolutionary stuff. Should they both get equal standing in discourse and debate?

308 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:38pm

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

You don't need to enjoy a thing to make it necessary, Cog. We can't let bogus talking points go unanswered.

You're right.

309 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:51pm

re: #249 stretch

I'll bet that you won't offer that same bet that a common pathogen won't evolve another antibotic resistance.

310 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:25:53pm

re: #302 stretch

right, but in the meantime what if there were (just supposing) a good number of PhD dissertations written with those hoaxes as core supporting material - then we should see at least a few retractions, and at least a few PhD's sending those lambskins back to their maker. I just don't recall reading about a single one.

You're going to have to do better than debunking your own hypothetical situations.

311 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:26:16pm

re: #302 stretch

right, but in the meantime what if there were (just supposing) a good number of PhD dissertations written with those hoaxes as core supporting material - then we should see at least a few retractions, and at least a few PhD's sending those lambskins back to their maker. I just don't recall reading about a single one.

And which PhD's would you be referring to? Give me some examples.

312 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:26:54pm

re: #284 stretch

They also seem to understand the scientific method better than you do.

313 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:27:08pm

re: #306 swamprat

Could we maybe have the Christians creationists here not do the stereotypical equivalent of tap-dancing on a watermelon rind while eating fried chicken? Please? This is embarrassing and humiliating.

RACIST!

314 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:27:09pm

re: #280 Cognito

It's tough to take any pleasure in the debate with creationists, for me at least. I know many creationists. I mean many. And they are for the most part wonderful, big-hearted people. They -- the people I know, at least -- don't go around comparing Darwin to Hitler. Or anyone else to Hitler, for that matter.

Yeah, I think they're mistaken on the facts of the universe. But I don't believe it's a matter of morality or ill intent, and it's tough for me to get worked up about it.

Just my feeling.


I have a good friend who insists the earth is less than 5,000 years old. No matter how many times I point out things like the grand canyon and images of distant galaxies, he always seems to get back to his faith - which is fine, but don't call faith science.

315 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:27:11pm
As I learned, that was created by Paul Bunyon dragging his ax behind him making that gash in the Earth. Am I wrong?

No, of course not. We watched that documentary just the other day. It was animated. Made by that great scientific think tank Disney.

Good show, though, although my daughter pointed out that the John Henry bit was a real downer.

316 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:27:13pm

re: #299 lostlakehiker

i think that harkens back to the prebiotic soup days - now evolutionists don't really like to claim any more that life evolved from non-life. So they'll need a lot more than O2 to even convince themselves.

317 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:27:27pm

Photosynthesis on other planets won't necessarily depend on chlorophyll.

318 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:27:39pm

re: #266 Salamantis
Hi Sal - when you said "The main horse that Hitler saddled up and rode to the Holocaust was ancient and deeply entrenched Christian antisemitism." I think you were spot on. But I think chakal was referring more to the "thinking" of Hitler and his henchmen that Aryan's could destroy all others in war and that Darwin led to Hitler led to WW II,not "just" to the Holocaust . And that is every bit as specious as one can get. The idea that Darwin led to Hitler (and WWII and the Holocaust) is just sickening.

319 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:28:14pm

re: #305 Walter L. Newton

Hey Stretch, I have meteorite specimens in my collection that have amino acids that ARE NOT FOUND ON EARTH. If you really understand science, you will understand the implication in that. Figure it out for yourself.

Holy crap! Silicone?

320 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:28:44pm

re: #309 Dan G.

true- only because that adaptability to the environment is the beauty of the design. do you know of a pathogen that 'evolved' all kinds of immunities, enough to change its name to another species?

321 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:28:57pm

re: #291 stretch

no please, not homology. really?

Homolophobe!

322 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:29:16pm

re: #302 stretch

right, but in the meantime what if there were (just supposing) a good number of PhD dissertations written with those hoaxes as core supporting material - then we should see at least a few retractions, and at least a few PhD's sending those lambskins back to their maker. I just don't recall reading about a single one.

You've gone through this before, what is your fucking beef with some assholes that pulled some stunts, oh maybe a hundred years ago. And you want their "sheepskins."

Geesh, did you get fucked in the butt by some science professor in college?

You really seem to have a vendetta mentality about this, and it doesn't change anything, it doesn't take anything away from the current science and it's not going to make the truth of evolution any less apparent.

You are chasing your tail (or maybe your science professor was).

323 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:29:43pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

They did find carbon dioxide.

Carbon Dioxide Detected on Distant Planet

That's evidence of SUVs right there.

324 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:29:55pm

re: #319 swamprat

that's the "building blocks" of life arguments, with amino acids. try throwing that rock into a pot of water and stir it for a while. maybe something will jump out.

325 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:30:23pm

re: #324 stretch

that's the "building blocks" of life arguments, with amino acids. try throwing that rock into a pot of water and stir it for a while. maybe something will jump out.

"I didn't come from no MONKEY!"

326 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:30:31pm

re: #320 stretch
No. And neither have I lived more than several decades. Interesting that you use the word adapt. Why? And why do you ignore that manipulations to DNA can also result in the changes in shape that makes similar species different?

327 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:30:56pm

re: #323 CyanSnowHawk

What tire pressure do you use on Jovian gas giants?

328 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:30:59pm

re: #322 Walter L. Newton

i disagree with your analysis. i think there should be a little more honesty in the scientific community, especially with such glaring (and willfully ignorant) mistakes.

329 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:31:06pm

re: #320 stretch

true- only because that adaptability to the environment is the beauty of the design. do you know of a pathogen that 'evolved' all kinds of immunities, enough to change its name to another species?

Trolls are such a pathogen. They evolve from pests, to asshats, to banned.

330 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:31:11pm

re: #324 stretch

Origins of Life is a different field of study from evolutionary biology.

331 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:31:29pm

re: #290 SWPaul
What were you celebrating?

332 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:32:06pm

re: #328 stretch

Science is self correcting.

333 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:32:07pm

re: #320 stretch

do you know of a pathogen that 'evolved' all kinds of immunities, enough to change its name to another species?

What stops a micro-evolution from continuing so long that it becomes a macro-evolution?

334 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:32:09pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

Sharp wit. ;)

335 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:32:29pm

re: #327 jaunte

What tire pressure do you use on Jovian gas giants?

Ask the Goracle, it will know!

336 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:32:57pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

Speaking of gas giants!

337 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:00pm

re: #333 jaunte

micro- vs. macro- evolution is a false dichotomy. Its just a question of what function that the mutated gene had/has.

338 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:03pm
339 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:13pm

re: #324 stretch

that's the "building blocks" of life arguments, with amino acids. try throwing that rock into a pot of water and stir it for a while. maybe something will jump out.

You just dismissed the implications of finding new amino acids in meteorites by not addressing the issue at all, just spouting some nonsense. Good move.

340 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:16pm

It's the standard creationist hamster wheel.

341 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:19pm

re: #326 Dan G.

i don't follow. what DNA changes are you talking about?

342 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:42pm

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

There's an lolcat for that.

343 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:50pm

re: #305 Walter L. Newton

C'mon Walter. Spill it.

344 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:33:58pm

I try not to insult someone's faith when discussing evolution and the age of the universe. Faith is extremely personal and most often very strong. If I ever cross the line and insult anyone here, I am truly sorry and do not mean to offend.

345 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:34:26pm

re: #340 Charles

It's the standard creationist hamster wheel.

Can we use their running in their wheel, to give your hamsters a breather?

346 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:34:53pm

re: #337 Dan G.

Yes, Not my dichotomy. I understand that some think there is one. I just would like someone to extend their remarks on the distinction.

347 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:34:56pm

re: #341 stretch
Google can be your friend, if only you'll go see him.

Here's a start.

348 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:35:02pm
349 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:35:15pm

re: #314 Racer X
"but don't call faith science." And DON'T TEACH IT AS SCIENCE IN PUBLICALLY FUNDED SCHOOLS!

350 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:35:23pm

Just notice the tactics -- he'll demand that you answer his stupid points, and provide links and arguments. Then he'll just ignore everything you say and move on to the next talking point on the list.

Hamster wheel.

351 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:35:40pm

re: #341 stretch

I have some bad news for you.

352 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:35:46pm

re: #268 stretch

okay - got it.

speaking of hard science - i remember reading stories on Java Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Haekels embryonic pictures, etc... From what I recall, those all turned out to be hoaxes, promulgated by scientists who were trying to make a name for themselves. It seemed that observational and experimental science had been replaced by something else.

All you can dig up is hundred year old hoaxes that were debunked by other scientists? Note: other scientists debunked them. That's the way science works. And Java Man was no hoax:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Plus, if Haeckel had drawn his embryo illustrations in 1874 correctly, they would have supported evolution even more than they did.

Howzabout showing me where creationists are flocking to Kentucky to debunk the Creation Museum (and to call it that slanders legitimate museums everywhere)? Where's the creationist stampede down to Texas, to debunk those fake human footprints someone Dremeled next to fossilized dino tracks?

353 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:35:58pm

re: #330 Sharmuta

well sure, now it is (at least on this blog). But decades and decades of claims by evolutionists don't just go away. I remember the little movie clips from school with a lightning bolt hitting a muddy pool SHAZAM and suddenly this amoeba is swimming around. Modern genetics made that continuum look bad, so evolutionists changed the game.

354 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:36:08pm

re: #346 jaunte

Ok. My opinion is that its a bad idea to propagate it, so I call it out every time I see it (nothing personal).

355 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:36:10pm

re: #325 Charles

"I didn't come from no MONKEY!"

Laugh while you can monkey-boy!

356 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:36:28pm

re: #316 stretch

Buddy, you don't even need O2 to have life. Most of the early life on earth survived on sulfar dioxide. Sulfate oxidation, look it up.

Oh yeah, there's also this crazy process in which life doesn't have to use organic material to survive! Anaerobic respiration, look it up.

The universe = really freaking huge, lots of opportunity for life out there that we may or may not find. But I'll tell you what, no one's going to be looking cause you bet them they couldn't find anything.

Riddle me this, why would God create anaerobic microorganisms if he knew that millions of years into the future animals would be using aerobic respiration? Seems like a stupid, and pretty indirect way of making life as we know it. Oh wait, I'm sorry, you probably think the Earth is only a few thousand years old, which only proves my point further.

357 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:36:28pm

re: #351 Sharmuta

I have some bad news for you.

LMAO!

358 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:36:47pm

re: #354 Dan G.

No problem! I ask the question because the answer never comes.

359 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:37:05pm

re: #356 SWPaul

Holy crap I spelled sulfur wrong. Seriously, I'm sorry guys.

360 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:37:19pm

re: #353 stretch

Ummm- genetics actually supports evolution. Google "retroviral DNA".

361 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:01pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

Nobody likes to discuss the universe's age. But, really, it does look much younger.

I think it's had some work done.

Clearly!

The Dark Doodad Nebula

362 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:06pm

re: #343 swamprat

C'mon Walter. Spill it.

Start here...

[Link: www.sciencedaily.com...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.panspermia.org...]

363 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:14pm

re: #360 Sharmuta
Google is teh hard.

364 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:15pm

re: #276 itellu3times

Darwin was never Hegel.

Some idiot Nazis citing Darwin is meaningless, if they don't know wtf they're talking about. National socialism owes more to Marx than Darwin.

Neither Darwin nor evolution were ever mentioned in Mein Kampf. The Reich ordered Darwin's books burned.

365 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:34pm

re: 253 Dan G.

Dan, please. I am entitled to my opinion without being attacked. Carl Woese is a pretty smart scientist that does not think evolution should be taught in grade school. I believe there are a number of other prominent scientists that have their questions too. My doubts came a number of years ago when the fossil record was wrong and there was a mix up over whether Java Man or something came before or after some other type of man. I always had my questions after that. If people are into evolution and studying it, I think that is great and fully support it. I like archaeology. I just raised some questions.

Of course it should be taught in college if you're going for a science curriculum or something similar. I also wouldn't have a problem with an elective high school class on evolution. I would have a problem with an elective class on creation in a public school and I would be against it.

Go back at the posts. The attacks were just stupid and not useful in a more civilized discourse. And yes, I support talking about it tangentially in a bioscience class, like one poster mentioned. But my point there is that to me that is more adaptation, than evolution. I don't think you need Darwin to talk Mendel and Watson and Crick.

366 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:48pm

re: #324 stretch

that's the "building blocks" of life arguments, with amino acids. try throwing that rock into a pot of water and stir it for a while. maybe something will jump out.

I know you didn't ask for a helping hand, but I think a better argument might go like this: Science shows pretty clearly that living creatures evolved from other living creatures, and others before them, all the way down to the inanimate dust that blew out from the center of the Big Bang. But what science can't seem to reach is the spark of life itself; the thing some people believe God breathed into man; the beauty of the untouchable thing just beyond life on either end, beginning or ending.

And I'd go along with that: I don't believe you can stir that from a pot.

367 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:49pm
In some instances, evolution becomes a symbol for Western dominance and a sign of modernity.

Truth isn't truth unless I think of it first!

368 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:38:51pm

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

re: #352 Salamantis

so creationists should debunk creationists, and evolutionists should debunk evolutionists - but which one has the monopoly on the funding? It seems tough to compare the efforts in this way

369 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:39:54pm

re: #350 Charles

The best thing is, I actually really learn from a lot of other people on the site. Someone says something really dumb and *boom*, intelligent people come in with evidence and facts, I read them and say, "I did not know that." It's nice to have a learning experience online. Keep it up!

370 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:28pm

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

Gee, it couldn't of had anything to do with almost 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism in Europe and especially in Germany, could it?

Darwinism and social Darwinism are facts of European intellectual history their contribution to nihilism and preparing the way for National Socialism can only be dismissed at the peril of no longer being serious.

371 itellu3times  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:40pm

re: #364 Salamantis

Neither Darwin nor evolution were ever mentioned in Mein Kampf. The Reich ordered Darwin's books burned.

Did they? Of course they wanted German science, not English science. Maroons.

372 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:41pm

re: #353 stretch

I remember the little movie clips from school with a lightning bolt hitting a muddy pool SHAZAM and suddenly this amoeba is swimming around.

I never saw those movies. And thats not how evolution works. A lot can happen in a Billion years.

Do you seriously believe that the earth is less than 5,000 years old?

373 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:45pm

re: #353 stretch

well sure, now it is (at least on this blog). But decades and decades of claims by evolutionists don't just go away. I remember the little movie clips from school with a lightning bolt hitting a muddy pool SHAZAM and suddenly this amoeba is swimming around. Modern genetics made that continuum look bad, so evolutionists changed the game.

No game changing; new theories were invented to account for the new information. That's the beauty of science: it's theories can be debunked and replaced, while creationism stays stuck on stupid. The ability to change to account for new facts is a key part of the game.

374 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:46pm

re: #305 Walter L. Newton

Hey Stretch, I have meteorite specimens in my collection that have amino acids that ARE NOT FOUND ON EARTH. If you really understand science, you will understand the implication in that. Figure it out for yourself.

Walter. I am sick, and must sleep so that I can work tomorrow, but if you could elaborate just a teeny bit, I will find it and read it. Thanks.

375 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:54pm

I'm heading to bed. Have fun, Lizards.

376 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:40:54pm

re: #359 SWPaul
SO, AGAIN, WHAT ARE YOU CELEBRATING TONIGHT?!

377 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:41:03pm

re: #350 Charles

Hamster wheel.


Maybe you could get him a job.

378 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:41:13pm

re: #281 MandyManners

Hitler was not a Christian.

Hitler remarked to General gerhard Engel, his chief of staff, in 1941, that he would always remain a committed Catholic.

But then again he lied about so many other things. But there was no reason for him to. He owned Gerhard. And the masses weren't listening to be swayed.

379 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:41:23pm

re: #375 MandyManners

I'm heading to bed. Have fun, Lizards.

Good night!

380 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:41:26pm

re: #362 Walter L. Newton

Thank you so much!

381 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:41:32pm

re: #365 beermeister

Carl Woese is a pretty smart scientist that does not think evolution should be taught in grade school.

That's another creationist talking point, and it is not true.

382 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:42:12pm
383 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:42:42pm

re: #368 stretch

re: #352 Salamantis

so creationists should debunk creationists, and evolutionists should debunk evolutionists - but which one has the monopoly on the funding? It seems tough to compare the efforts in this way

Now he's on another topic. What does he have, a fucking list, like a knight jump strategy, you're not clever, you're not smart, you're not a thinker, you're not a scientist and you're not a mathematician.

You are someone who thinks you understand science, thinks you understands critical thinking, thinks you understand logic, but you really don't make the grade.

Sorry, I'm out of here.

We have a special 10:00am performance tomorrow morning, I need to get to bed.

Please be nice to the turtles.

384 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:43:09pm

re: #356 SWPaul
i read an interesting line of thought on life probability starting from the periodic table, looking at elements that could form into the most various forms of compounts (carbon and silicon) then the one that could form long chains (carbon), the reactions that allow replication (oxygen, water, chlorophyl) - the spectrum required from sunlight, the magnetic fields required to protect the life from the 'bad' particulates, then the orbital distances, other giant planets to sweep out comets and asteroids. Just going from memory here, the end result would be that one would have to find an exoplanet that looked real close to the one we're on.

385 MeatPopsicle  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:43:25pm

re: #171 MandyManners

I was referring to the berating and ridicule versus civil discourse, which is much appreciated and preferred, but you knew that already.

But hey, thanks for proving my point so nicely anyway, Miss 'Manners'. That is much appreciated as well.

386 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:43:33pm

re: #366 Cognito

But what science can't seem to reach is the spark of life itself; the thing some people believe God breathed into man; the beauty of the untouchable thing just beyond life on either end, beginning or ending.

And I'd go along with that: I don't believe you can stir that from a pot.

I don't find it a struggle at all. The creator made everything a long time ago.

Easy.

387 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:43:55pm

re: #363 Dan G.

Google is teh hard.

Gets in the way of getting us "Darwinists" to dance to their little tune.

388 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:43:55pm

re: #365 beermeister

Without a strong background in biology, less kids would want to go into it in college. My sister graduated with a degree in biology and she's working on a cure for cancer. I remember her in high school talking constantly about the wonders of biology, how cool it is, etc. You want to take that away because you disagree with one tenant of biology? Sir, you do not understand that each science ties into one another. Like I said earlier, chemistry and physics complement biology, and thus, the theory of evolution. Should we make those electives? If you really have an interest in science, as you claim, then study it, and encourage that all other kids have the opportunity to do the same.

389 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:44:12pm

re: #372 Racer X

i thought the thread was on how stupid creationists are. Do you really care what i believe?

390 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:44:18pm

re: #365 beermeister

You are still dodging. What evidence that supports the theory of evolution is flimsy and why. I'll give you some direction. Is it that DNA is not the source of heritable traits? Is it that modification of DNA can happen by retroviruses, sloppy polymerases, recombination, ionizing radiation, biased DNA patching enzymes, the fact that some nucelotides are more reactive in polymerizing that others? Is it that these changes to the DNA have no consequences for the organism?

Or, since you state that you're not a "fan" of creationism and you have misgivings about evolution; what is your explanation for the variations observed amongst the vast fauna and flora?

I'm not victimizing you, I am being civilized. You are disingenuous. You made a statement and will neither back it, nor back down.

391 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:44:23pm

re: #291 stretch

no please, not homology. really?

They're called transitional (or intermediate) fossils. Although every organism that reproduces is transitional, because evolution never ends.

392 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:44:30pm

re: #365 beermeister

To quote Ronald Regan: "There you go again". When you get caught by the arguments, you babble about being attacked. Run in your wheel, little hamster.

393 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:44:58pm

re: #376 realwest

Whoops, sorry! Didn't see you there. A project at work is almost complete, and it's being accepted by the EPA! It's incredible!

394 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:45:02pm

re: #368 stretch
"but which one has the monopoly on the funding?"
Bzzzt - game over - Ben Stein is waiting in the car for you.

395 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:45:29pm

re: #382 buzzsawmonkey

buzzsaw, nice work on your +34 comment today!

396 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:45:43pm

re: #327 jaunte

What tire pressure do you use on Jovian gas giants?

About 32psi above ambient.

397 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:46:05pm

re: #386 Racer X

I don't find it a struggle at all. The creator made everything a long time ago.

Easy.

There you go.

(Or maybe, just maybe he created it five minutes ago. Calling Mr. Asimov...)

398 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:46:11pm

re: #389 stretch

i thought the thread was on how stupid creationists are. Do you really care what i believe?

*Looks at top of thread*

Uh, no. The topic is concerning the spread of islamic creationism.

399 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:46:46pm

re: #375 MandyManners
Good night Mandy - sleep well!

400 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:46:54pm

re: #389 stretch

i thought the thread was on how stupid creationists are. Do you really care what i believe?

Yes. In the context of this discussion.

401 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:47:11pm

re: #370 chakal

Darwinism and social Darwinism are facts of European intellectual history their contribution to nihilism and preparing the way for National Socialism can only be dismissed at the peril of no longer being serious.

Chakal knows better, and if he doesn't, then someone set him straight. This has been discussed here to no end AND THIS SITE HAS PROOF THAT CHAKAL AND HIS SORT ARE WRONG.

Someone help him out, or GAZE if necessay.

I going to bed. Early AM show in the morning.

402 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:47:35pm

re: #391 Salamantis

As though genes lead to the shape of bones.

/big time sarc

403 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:47:50pm

re: #398 Sharmuta

*Looks at top of thread*

Uh, no. The topic is concerning the spread of islamic creationism.

Sadly, the topic has reverted to a troll smackdown. Most evolution vs. creationism thread end in this place.

404 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:48:01pm

re: #307 stretch

good - now bibilical archeology has at least as good a standing as the evolutionary stuff. Should they both get equal standing in discourse and debate?

If by Biblical archaeology you mean the YEC contention that the earth is only a few thousand years old, plate tectonics, among millions of other geological facts, utterly demolishes that.

405 gman  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:48:09pm

re: #370 chakal

Darwinism and social Darwinism are facts of European intellectual history their contribution to nihilism and preparing the way for National Socialism can only be dismissed at the peril of no longer being serious.

It's obvious you lean towards Stern's interpretation of the roots of German antisemitism. I'll take Goldhagen and his well documented facts any day over the superfluous Stern.

406 Erik The Red  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:48:15pm

I like this part Debates about evolution’s mechanisms, he continues, don’t amount to challenges to the theory. And intelligent design “is not science. It makes no predictions and doesn’t offer any explanation whatsoever, except for ‘God did it.’” Ratcliffe as quoted by PZ Myers

407 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:48:24pm

re: #396 CyanSnowHawk

Ok, that's about 14,536psi.

408 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:48:31pm

re: #383 Walter L. Newton
Good night, Walter! Sleep well!

409 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:48:45pm

re: #384 stretch

Yeah, and like I said, huge universe, might be a planet that has similar characteristics to Earth. Quite possible. Are you a chemist by the way? Don't say anything about chemistry unless you studied it for quite a long time. Don't test me.

410 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:49:00pm
411 Syrah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:49:02pm

re: #397 Cognito

There you go.

(Or maybe, just maybe he created it five minutes ago. Calling Mr. Asimov...)

Started in the middle.

412 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:49:22pm

re: #398 Sharmuta

oh right - this is the one where if an islamist doesn't like evolutionism, then all creationists must be terrorists, or something like that.

413 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:50:22pm

re: #412 stretch

oh right - this is the one where if an islamist doesn't like evolutionism, then all creationists must be terrorists, or something like that.

OK, now you're just being insulting and dishonest.

GAZE

414 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:50:36pm

re: #410 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks! Until your post, I didn't realize I had one.

You're #1 for the moment, I thought it was worth the mention. Doesn't happen everyday.

415 jaunte  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:50:43pm

"Can you distinguish between philosophical materialism and methodological materialism?"

416 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:50:44pm

re: #412 stretch
You've yet to respond to the information that's been provided you. There's not a canned statement againsts those facts yet, huh?

417 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:50:54pm

re: #316 stretch

i think that harkens back to the prebiotic soup days - now evolutionists don't really like to claim any more that life evolved from non-life. So they'll need a lot more than O2 to even convince themselves.

You are speaking of Origins of Life theory, not evolutionary theory.

And new data about that continues to emerge from even the old experiements:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

418 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:50:58pm

re: #370 chakal

Darwinism and social Darwinism are facts of European intellectual history their contribution to nihilism and preparing the way for National Socialism can only be dismissed at the peril of no longer being serious.

First- there is no such thing as "Darwinism" except in the minds of creationists.

Second- (since we know where this is going) Eugenics was around before Charles Darwin was a twinkle in the eye of his great-great-great-great grandfather.

419 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:51:20pm

re: #330 Sharmuta

No it's not. There can be no evolution without the origin of life. Evolution should explain both.

420 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:51:36pm

re: #393 SWPaul
HEY! It's actually being accepted by the EPA?! WHOA, you deserve to celebrate!
DRINK!

421 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:51:43pm

This latest post shows (to me) clearly why Charles posts on ID and creationism. It ties the ideology to the radical Islamists who are hell bent (no pun intended) on destroying Western civilization.

When it comes to teaching ID in public schools - I'd prefer to keep that door closed.

422 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:52:12pm

re: #412 stretch

Really? Really? Yeah... at least we know you lost.
re: #413 Dark_Falcon

Same. GAZE

423 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:52:26pm

re: #419 fiat_lux
No. Evolution is EXPLICITLY the theory of how life changes, not how it came to be. You're not allowed to change definitions to suit your ends.

424 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:53:14pm

re: #423 Dan G.

You're not allowed to change definitions to suit your ends.

Party pooper. ;p

425 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:53:15pm

re: #320 stretch

true- only because that adaptability to the environment is the beauty of the design. do you know of a pathogen that 'evolved' all kinds of immunities, enough to change its name to another species?

What about Lenski's e. coli? They evolved the ability to metabolize citric acid. The inability to metabolize citric acid has historically been a marking characteristic for e.coli.

426 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:53:23pm

re: #404 Salamantis

so i've been thinking about those retroviruses again - it seems that the way they were detected in the human genome was becuase of their commanality of position. Now backing up - either a single human passed down the viral components, or a small population was infected with a virus, then that retrovirus was passed down from that group. Either way, it seems that the possibility exists that the same virus can infect different species.

427 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:53:26pm
428 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:53:57pm

re: #416 Dan G.

i didn't click out on any of the thinks, sorry. Could you summarize please?

429 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:54:08pm

re: #424 Sharmuta
Sorry, did you want whack that mole? ;)

430 swamprat  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:54:30pm

re: #361 Racer X

Clearly!

The Dark Doodad Nebula

Picture is fake.

Notice that there are no globular clusters.

431 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:54:30pm

re: #420 realwest

Yeah, well, it's pretty cool because we're testing for arsenic in an area nearby a town. We've found some very high levels and finally the EPA is getting involved here. I mean, not just arsenic too, it's cadmium, lead, and incredible amounts of copper and iron in the air too. We haven't even touched the ground water either, but I don't even want to know.

432 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:54:34pm

Sharmuta I was just reading about the Moe Katz meltdown, and I have to tip my hat to ya. You had him pegged about a month ago. And to think I doubted you...

433 bosforus  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:54:35pm

Well, just stopped by for a few moments to see what was shaking. Keep it up, lizards!

434 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:54:50pm

re: #425 Salamantis

What about Lenski's e. coli? They evolved the ability to metabolize citric acid. The inability to metabolize citric acid has historically been a marking characteristic for e.coli.

They don't like talking about Nylonase either.

435 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:55:14pm

re: #428 stretch
Read it yourself.

436 Syrah  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:55:30pm

It looks like the future is getting more and more interesting by the day.

Goodnight all.

437 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:55:48pm

re: #435 Dan G.

Clicking links is teh hard.

438 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:55:49pm

re: #425 Salamantis

marking characteristic yes, because it was an easy one. but not the entire code. As was pointed out before, once the citric acid is removed (and another 25000 geneartions goes by) the trait will very likely be long gone. ecoli evolves to ecoli and back to ecoli. I missed the point.

439 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:55:52pm

re: #426 stretch

I've got a book around here, somewhere, in which Kierkegaard says that both faith and science start to look foolish when they step into the other's realm.

And really, why? Pascal knew more about both subjects than I ever will. And he made his wager.

440 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:55:54pm

Hey Stretch, a human embryo goes through the entire evolutionary process in the womb.

441 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:56:02pm

re: #324 stretch

that's the "building blocks" of life arguments, with amino acids. try throwing that rock into a pot of water and stir it for a while. maybe something will jump out.

Umm...it isn't as simple as that. But apparently you are.

442 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:56:13pm

re: #366 Cognito

I know you didn't ask for a helping hand, but I think a better argument might go like this: Science shows pretty clearly that living creatures evolved from other living creatures, and others before them, all the way down to the inanimate dust that blew out from the center of the Big Bang. But what science can't seem to reach is the spark of life itself; the thing some people believe God breathed into man; the beauty of the untouchable thing just beyond life on either end, beginning or ending.

And I'd go along with that: I don't believe you can stir that from a pot.

Nor does evolution even claim to address that. That would the origin of life question, as opposed to origin of species question.

443 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:56:58pm

re: #442 CyanSnowHawk

Yep.

444 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:57:57pm

re: #328 stretch

i disagree with your analysis. i think there should be a little more honesty in the scientific community, especially with such glaring (and willfully ignorant) mistakes.

A creationist calling for scientific honesty is like a rapist calling for female chastity.

445 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:58:09pm

re: #440 rawmuse

Hey Stretch, a human embryo goes through the entire evolutionary process in the womb.

Complete with gills.

446 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:58:29pm

re: #431 SWPaul
I understand completely - was a commercial real estate attorney for over 35 years until I had to retire and have had MANY dealings with the EPA and (this was in NY) the DEC, so as I said "DRINK!"

447 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:58:43pm

This image is one of my favorites - a battle between good and evil.

448 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:58:58pm

re: #440 rawmuse
wow!

449 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:59:01pm

re: #445 Sharmuta

But reading is teh hard.

450 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:59:19pm

re: #438 stretch

Then explain Nylonase.

Also- please explain hiccups and hernias.

451 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 10:59:27pm

re: #441 Salamantis

Umm...it isn't as simple as that. But apparently you are.

Agreed. In that analogy, he has the brains of the rock in the pot.

452 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:00:00pm

re: #436 Syrah
Good night Syrah - sleep well!

453 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:00:15pm

re: #445 Sharmuta

please tell me you are joking? those 'gills' form the nose, mouth, esophagus and sinus. not gills, never were.

454 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:00:28pm

re: #449 Dan G.

But reading is teh hard.

Tru, but hes kan read teh kommntz on teh LFG blog tho.

455 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:00:53pm

re: #450 Sharmuta
And while you're at it, explain fragile "X" syndrome.

456 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:01:01pm

re: #453 stretch

Explain hiccups, hernias and Nylonase.

457 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:01:10pm

re: #444 Salamantis

now now, ad-hominem doesn't become you

458 rawmuse  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:01:10pm

re: #445 Sharmuta

And a tail.

459 Cognito  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:01:11pm

re: #453 stretch

I've offered up a couple of ideas for your consideration.

No thoughts?

460 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:01:47pm

Shame to leave during good troll pounding but I have an early wake-up. Good night to all my friends.

461 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:02:20pm

re: #455 Dan G.
problem with the end of the "x" chromosome, missing, bent, reversal, or mis-sense

462 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:02:40pm

re: #461 stretch

Explain hiccups, hernias and Nylonase.

463 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:03:10pm

re: #353 stretch

well sure, now it is (at least on this blog). But decades and decades of claims by evolutionists don't just go away. I remember the little movie clips from school with a lightning bolt hitting a muddy pool SHAZAM and suddenly this amoeba is swimming around. Modern genetics made that continuum look bad, so evolutionists changed the game.

Actually, modern genetics has nothing to say about the origins of life one way or another. Except the idea that copying fidelity itself most likely evolved - which would have given DNA a much greater chance of forming in the first place (more and wider mutations).

464 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:03:12pm

re: #461 stretch

Reconcile that with the claim that we're intelligently designed.

465 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:03:15pm

re: #460 Dark_Falcon
Good night to you Dark_Falcon and sleep well!

466 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:03:21pm

re: #459 Cognito

I've offered up a couple of ideas for your consideration.

No thoughts?

He's like Alan Colmes. He doesn't have thoughts, he just recites his talking points. And on that note I really do have to go to bed.

467 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:03:34pm

re: #461 stretch
And I didn't say define, I said explain.

468 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:03:48pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

explain in what way? that they are inherited, mutations, started as a good design gone bad. what?

469 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:04:16pm

re: #466 Dark_Falcon
;) Stretch Colmes... has a nice ring.

470 Racer X  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:04:19pm

re: #459 Cognito

I've offered up a couple of ideas for your consideration.

No thoughts?

I think everyone is wasting their time.

471 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:04:25pm

re: #407 jaunte

Ok, that's about 14,536psi.

Depends on how deep you go. Those gas giants aren't to clear on where the 'surface' is.

472 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:04:49pm

re: #468 stretch

explain in what way? that they are inherited, mutations, started as a good design gone bad. what?

Gee, I guess nobody saw that coming.

473 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:05:38pm

re: #423 Dan G.

I changed no definition. Evoluti claims to explain all. You may not claim that evolution is invoked at one point, and not at any other point. Ool is still falls under the evolution umbrella.

474 realwest  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:05:43pm

Well y'all it's been interesting as usual, but I gotta get some sleep now.
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

475 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:05:58pm

re: #464 Dan G.

intelligently designed yes, but we obviously didn't stay that way. Evolutionists seem to believe that the genetic code improves with time and chance (and abortion of undesirables) I think it goes the other way, with more and more corruptions of the code.

476 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:06:25pm

re: #468 stretch

Why do men get hernias? Why do humans get hiccups. And how is it possible for pre-existing bacteria to eat a man made product?

477 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:06:32pm

Nite all.

478 gmsc  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:07:07pm

re: #475 stretch

intelligently designed yes, but we obviously didn't stay that way. Evolutionists seem to believe that the genetic code improves with time and chance (and abortion of undesirables) I think it goes the other way, with more and more corruptions of the code.

Oh, that's right. I keep forgetting that creationists and IDers don't believe that the concept of feedback exists.

479 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:07:20pm

Science is not self correcting, it is perpetuating.

480 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:07:26pm

re: #475 stretch
Where does abortion of undesirables come into evolution, I must have missed that chapter?

481 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:07:57pm

re: #473 fiat_lux
Really? Where is such a claim made?

482 SWPaul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:08:07pm

re: #470 Racer X

Agree. The good thing is, tomorrow no one will remember this troll; forgotten into the LGF archives... But until then, everyone have as much fun as possible. But like Dark Falcon, I'm out. Goodnight everyone.

483 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:08:42pm

re: #482 SWPaul
Good night, and congrats.

484 Dan G.  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:09:18pm

Nite shills. Just know, Reason saves. ;)

485 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:09:30pm

re: #432 MrPaulRevere

Thanks, my friend.

486 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:10:18pm

re: #447 Racer X

This image is one of my favorites - a battle between good and evil.

Or Cold Miser and Heat Miser.

487 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:10:20pm

re: #365 beermeister

re: 253 Dan G.

Dan, please. I am entitled to my opinion without being attacked. Carl Woese is a pretty smart scientist that does not think evolution should be taught in grade school. I believe there are a number of other prominent scientists that have their questions too. My doubts came a number of years ago when the fossil record was wrong and there was a mix up over whether Java Man or something came before or after some other type of man. I always had my questions after that. If people are into evolution and studying it, I think that is great and fully support it. I like archaeology. I just raised some questions.

And they've been answered. You are entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts

Of course it should be taught in college if you're going for a science curriculum or something similar. I also wouldn't have a problem with an elective high school class on evolution. I would have a problem with an elective class on creation in a public school and I would be against it.

Go back at the posts. The attacks were just stupid and not useful in a more civilized discourse. And yes, I support talking about it tangentially in a bioscience class, like one poster mentioned. But my point there is that to me that is more adaptation, than evolution. I don't think you need Darwin to talk Mendel and Watson and Crick.

Adaptation to an environment via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection is evolution. Mendel complements Darwin. And without the theoretical impetus provided by those two, Watson & Crick might never have gone looking for the material substrate that instantiates the process.

488 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:10:47pm
Explain hiccups, hernias and Nylonase.

i get hiccups when I eat hamburgers too fast. My dad had a hernia, so there's a chance I might have one someday. I know nothing about Nylonase, but will look it up if it bears explaining.

489 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:11:53pm

re: #480 Dan G.

just trying to tweak Sal. a bit - he didn't bite.

490 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:12:00pm

re: #368 stretch

re: #352 Salamantis

so creationists should debunk creationists, and evolutionists should debunk evolutionists - but which one has the monopoly on the funding? It seems tough to compare the efforts in this way

With all the millions that the Disco Institute gets from its wealthy creationist donors, where's its science program? Where's its alternative?

491 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:13:38pm

re: #453 stretch

please tell me you are joking? those 'gills' form the nose, mouth, esophagus and sinus. not gills, never were.

Hmm, some very "gill-like" structure turns into significant parts of the respiratory system. That's quite a stretch of the imagination there.

/just in case.

492 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:14:22pm

re: #478 gmsc

i'm not sure. I'm thinking that in general that the human genetic code has a huge number of self-correcting and self-perpetuating features built right in. But eventually, some problem that couldn't get fixed will spread through most of the population.

493 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:15:27pm

re: #491 CyanSnowHawk

I'm not going to cover that homology thing. It is just flat silly. Gills indeed.

494 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:16:16pm

re: #481 Dan G.

What claim? That evolution doesn't explain ool?. It (evolution) pretends to explain everything else. It cannot begin at an arbitrary starting point for the convenience of its adherence.

495 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:16:19pm

re: #370 chakal

Darwinism and social Darwinism are facts of European intellectual history their contribution to nihilism and preparing the way for National Socialism can only be dismissed at the peril of no longer being serious.

Evolutionary theorists are the precise antithesis of eugenicists. Evolutionary theorists support allowing environmental selection to proceed unhindered, while eugenicists all wanna impose their own pet "intelligent' design. And the first published eugenicist was Plato, in The Republic - millennia before Darwin. The actual eugenicist model is applying animal husbandry - which farmers have known about for ages - to humans, complete with selective breeding and culling the herd.

496 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:17:03pm

re: #480 Dan G.

Where does abortion of undesirables come into evolution, I must have missed that chapter?

That would be the eugenics connection he is setting up for a later shift in the argument.

497 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:17:19pm

re: #490 Salamantis

I'm all for private donors. Give your money where ever you want. Now using tax funds for the evolutionist agenda - that's a different story don't you think?

498 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:18:22pm

re: #495 Salamantis

so it was only the ugly ones of the heard that you escorted into Planned Parenthood?

499 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:18:39pm

re: #498 stretch

nuts, that would be "herd"

500 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:19:19pm

re: #496 CyanSnowHawk

okay you pick. what do you want to argue about?

501 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:19:56pm

re: #488 stretch

I'd like to nominate this post for "Epic Fail" of the day.

502 chakal  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:22:36pm

re: #276 itellu3times

Darwin was never Hegel.

Some idiot Nazis citing Darwin is meaningless, if they don't know wtf they're talking about. National socialism owes more to Marx than Darwin.

Agreed.
But Moeller van den Bruck and Paul de Lagarde were not Nazis. They were useful to the Nazis. Moeller's book Das Dritte Reich was published in 1923. (Mein Kampf appeared in 1925 and 1926.)

503 stretch  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:22:48pm

re: #501 Sharmuta

g'nite

504 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:25:03pm

re: #388 SWPaul

Without a strong background in biology, less kids would want to go into it in college. My sister graduated with a degree in biology and she's working on a cure for cancer. I remember her in high school talking constantly about the wonders of biology, how cool it is, etc. You want to take that away because you disagree with one tenant of biology? Sir, you do not understand that each science ties into one another. Like I said earlier, chemistry and physics complement biology, and thus, the theory of evolution. Should we make those electives? If you really have an interest in science, as you claim, then study it, and encourage that all other kids have the opportunity to do the same.

There are two diofferent, related dangers. The genuinely interested and talented bioscience students would tune out and choose other fields once they were faced with having creationist crapola shoveled down their snouts, and the Faithful remaining would drop out of college, or out of the major, once they were confronted with real science.

Net result: we lose future bioscientists, and the discoveries and advances they could come up with, and the technological inventions and innovations that could be derived from them. And the US global bioscience position suffers. With its geopolitical influence position not far behind.

505 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:25:48pm

What is simpler? Engaging a poster in debate or going for the ding down button. I can't figure it out. Any ideas, y'all?

506 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:26:39pm

re: 381 Charles

Hey Charles. I found it on a Wired site. That's all.

[Link: blog.wired.com...]

re: 388 SWPaul

I fully support biology classes and I think it is great what your sister is doing. We are making great progress in the fight against cancer. Better diagnostics, prevention and treatments. All of this is showing in longer survival rates across many cancer types. I think more progress will be made on a steady basis going forward. Biologic drugs and small molecules have both been helpful. Gene/Cell therapy has been disappointing for a very long time and vaccines have made some progress recently, but were a disappointment for a long time. There are a bunch of devices that have been good too.

507 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:33:09pm

re: #268 stretch

In what way were Haekels embryonic pictures a hoax?

What was the hoax?

Could you tell us, in your own words, what happened?

What was Haekel trying to say? Was he wrong? What parts did he get wrong? What parts did he get right?

What is modern opinion on the similarities between vertebrate embryos?

508 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:33:18pm

re: #419 fiat_lux

No it's not. There can be no evolution without the origin of life. Evolution should explain both.

One addresses how life began; the other addresses what happened with populations of life, possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity, are confronted with the challenges, dangers, obligations and opportunities of an environing ecology. Got it?

509 Erik The Red  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:33:58pm

re: #505 fiat_lux

What is simpler? Engaging a poster in debate or going for the ding down button. I can't figure it out. Any ideas, y'all?

Better to engage but we have heard all your talking points, given you advise so now iy is just easier to ding down. Nothing new coming from you Fiat.

510 beermeister  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:37:28pm

re: 487 Salamantis
You said:
"Adaptation to an environment via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection is evolution."

I wonder:
Are not most human genetic mutations negative and undesirable? I do know that most genetic mutations at birth and during life have negative consequences, whether they are deformities or diseases.

511 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:37:55pm

re: #320 stretch

true- only because that adaptability to the environment is the beauty of the design. do you know of a pathogen that 'evolved' all kinds of immunities, enough to change its name to another species?

You have to remember that "species" is a human construct, nothing more than a convenient tool we use to classify all manner of living things.

If we came across two bugs in the wild, outwardly similar, but one resistant to penicillin, and the other not, we might well choose give them different species names. But in the case of a bug that we have long known well, it's more convenient to keep the same species name for the resistant variety, and just note that it is a derivative of the older bug.

512 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:40:26pm

re: #508 Salamantis

Evolution can not arbitrarily invoke itself when it is convenient. Ool is always theorized in the context of evolution.

513 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:40:32pm

re: #322 Walter L. Newton

Walter, are you still here? I have a few fossils and mineral specimens myself. I could send you a specimen of stromatoporoid reef rock from the Devonian, if you'd like a piece.

514 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:44:15pm

re: #426 stretch

so i've been thinking about those retroviruses again - it seems that the way they were detected in the human genome was becuase of their commanality of position. Now backing up - either a single human passed down the viral components, or a small population was infected with a virus, then that retrovirus was passed down from that group. Either way, it seems that the possibility exists that the same virus can infect different species.

Let me quote you some statistical smackdown:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

Sal: In othyer words, the statistical probability that thousand of different retroviruses (and only those - no others) before a genetic degradation calculable point (with different ones in being found in each thereafter - double confirmation), infected both great apes and humans, and furthermore spliced their sequences in precisely isomorphic spots in their 3 billion base pair genomes, is vanishingly less probable than that you win every single sweepstake and lotto in the world, for the rest of your life, by buying a single ticket in each, and win the grand prize with your first coin, every time you play any slot machine. It's all artifactual retroviral sameness before the evolutionary divergence point, and becomes progressively different afterwards. Get it?

No, you don't. That would be expecting waaay too much of you.

515 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:46:45pm

re: #509 Erik The Red

I was asking that question generally, but you have heard all of my "talking points", so , yeah ding me down if that is easier than engaging me in honest debate. More power to ya'.

516 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:48:42pm

re: #515 fiat_lux

You have a lot of nerve to chastise anyone here about "honest debate".

517 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:48:57pm

re: #438 stretch

marking characteristic yes, because it was an easy one. but not the entire code. As was pointed out before, once the citric acid is removed (and another 25000 geneartions goes by) the trait will very likely be long gone. ecoli evolves to ecoli and back to ecoli. I missed the point.

Yeah...that's called evolution back to a previous state, when the selecting environment reverts to the ecology that support it. Like if we took blind cave fish out of the caves and into the light, and fed them well, but not too well, eventually eyes would come back.

518 Erik The Red  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:50:42pm

re: #515 fiat_lux

I was asking that question generally, but you have heard all of my "talking points", so , yeah ding me down if that is easier than engaging me in honest debate. More power to ya'.

Honest LMAO

519 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:53:56pm

re: #453 stretch

please tell me you are joking? those 'gills' form the nose, mouth, esophagus and sinus. not gills, never were.

Yes they were gills. And explain the tail.

520 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:55:15pm

re: #516 Sharmuta

I have always been honest. You might find my arguments lacking, but I have always bee sincere what I believe.

521 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:56:04pm

re: #457 stretch

now now, ad-hominem doesn't become you

It may not be polite to call someone what they in fact are, when what they are is unseemly, but the truth, by definition, can never be an insult.

522 fiat_lux  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:59:08pm

re: #518 Erik The Red

I am always gratified when I can make someone laugh there posterior off.

523 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 11, 2008 11:59:35pm

re: #468 stretch

explain in what way? that they are inherited, mutations, started as a good design gone bad. what?

Good designs are like good women; if they were truly good in the first place, they never go bad...;~)

Which is why ID doesn't apply. Just ask the next panda you meet, after you take a look at his 'thumb'.

524 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:01:57am

re: #473 fiat_lux

I changed no definition. Evoluti claims to explain all. You may not claim that evolution is invoked at one point, and not at any other point. Ool is still falls under the evolution umbrella.

What part of beginning of versus change in do you not understand?

525 Mr Secul  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:04:02am

re: #419 fiat_lux

No it's not. There can be no evolution without the origin of life. Evolution should explain both.

There can be no gravity without matter. No photosynthesis without light.

Newton's theory doesn't mention where the matter came from.

Photosynthesis doesn't mention stellar origins, or how light bulbs work.

526 chakal  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:06:39am

re: #495 Salamantis

Evolutionary theorists are the precise antithesis of eugenicists. Evolutionary theorists support allowing environmental selection to proceed unhindered, while eugenicists all wanna impose their own pet "intelligent' design. And the first published eugenicist was Plato, in The Republic - millennia before Darwin. The actual eugenicist model is applying animal husbandry - which farmers have known about for ages - to humans, complete with selective breeding and culling the herd.

Greetings Salamantis.

OT I was really touched by your story about the feral kitten you adopted and the comfort it brought to your mom. I also admire the way that you cared for your Dad. That post was really some of your best writing, (INMHO).

I recognize the point of what you are saying above. As you probably know the term "eugenics" was coined by Francis Galton, Charles Darwin's half cousin (they were grandsons of Erasmus Darwin). According to Wikipedia, Galton was apparently obsessed with the first chapter of Darwin's The Origin of Species "'Variation under Domestication' concerning the breeding of domestic animals."

527 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:12:15am

re: #475 stretch

intelligently designed yes, but we obviously didn't stay that way. Evolutionists seem to believe that the genetic code improves with time and chance (and abortion of undesirables) I think it goes the other way, with more and more corruptions of the code.

I think that you believe that our best days have been behind us since Eden. Eden was nice, I must admit. I like looking at naked chicks without shame (although I still do that now), and picking food off trees whenever I'm hungry. But I really like to listen to music, and view painting, and touch sculpture, and know about all kinds of shit, and watch TV, and log onto the internet, and eat food from all over the world, and choose from 3+ billion women, a functional percentage of whom are willing. And so much more.

528 Mr Secul  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:12:23am

re: #493 stretch

I'm not going to cover that homology thing. It is just flat silly. Gills indeed.

What is the homology thing?

529 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:14:34am

re: #423 Dan G.

Sorry I missed you earlier. Wow ,you got plus seven on that one!,.Ool theories always frame it terms of evolution. Naturally occurring elements arranged themselves into amino acids. Then those naughty amino acids formed themselves into proteins. Those proteins evolved into cells that could replicate themselves and then, and only than, does evolution exert its muscle.

530 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:18:55am

re: #525 Mr Secul

This is way beyond my understanding.I don't remember Newton trying to explain where matter came from. Please dumb this down for me.

531 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:19:38am

re: #526 chakal

Galton and Darwin were related. Doesn't mean eugenics and evolution are.

532 Mr Secul  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:25:21am

re: #529 fiat_lux

Sorry I missed you earlier. Wow ,you got plus seven on that one!,.Ool theories always frame it terms of evolution. Naturally occurring elements arranged themselves into amino acids. Then those naughty amino acids formed themselves into proteins. Those proteins evolved into cells that could replicate themselves and then, and only than, does evolution exert its muscle.

Who says that? When was it said? Who says that proteins came first?!?

Is this another thing that you just made up?

People: check his assertions made in this thread. Start from re: #516 fiat_lux

533 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:25:34am

re: #524 Salamantis

Sorry I was typing beyond my core: #524 Salamantis

Salamntis I apologize for posting an incomprehensible sentence. Let me see what I meant. Yes, I'm embarrassed.

534 Claire  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:30:27am

re: #528 Mr Secul

Homology: The similarity in characteristics we share due to common ancestry.

Pharyngeal arches form the neck, jaw and ears of mammals. These same genes form the gills in fish.

I guess if Stretch doesn't like the idea that he is related to monkeys, then he's gonna be totally freaked out when he learns that every cell in his body contains fish genes. Ewww. Oooky!

535 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:34:36am

re: #532 Mr Secul

People: It began with elements, then amino acids then proteins. In other words, I did not say proteins came first. As far as life goes, yeah, proteins happened.

536 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:34:39am

re: #534 Claire

Glub glub.

(And it's this relation, through evolution, which has led to hiccups and hernias.)

537 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:34:43am

re: #492 stretch

i'm not sure. I'm thinking that in general that the human genetic code has a huge number of self-correcting and self-perpetuating features built right in. But eventually, some problem that couldn't get fixed will spread through most of the population.

So God didn't get it right, hunh?

That doesn't fit very well with with designed omniscience and omnipotence, does it?

538 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:37:29am

re: #494 fiat_lux

What claim? That evolution doesn't explain ool?. It (evolution) pretends to explain everything else. It cannot begin at an arbitrary starting point for the convenience of its adherence.

Please cite where evolution purports to explain the origins of life or the universe. You can't do it. They're out of its domain.

539 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:44:44am

re: #497 stretch

I'm all for private donors. Give your money where ever you want. Now using tax funds for the evolutionist agenda - that's a different story don't you think?

Using tax funds to finance empirical science wherever it leads is fine with me. Your problem is that it doesn't lead where you want it to. And it isn't a problem of creationist 'science' being shut down for lack of results (although that would certainly happen in an efficiently administered program); it's that they offer no experimental or investigatory program whatsoever:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

540 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:49:11am

re: #498 stretch

so it was only the ugly ones of the heard that you escorted into Planned Parenthood?

Geez; how dumb can you be? This dumb. Doors are opened. People walk in. Because they want to. And feel they need to. They are not solicited. Or herded. And they are not urged to stay, or turned away, due to any racial characteristics.

541 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:51:03am

I never said that, nor has it been claimed, that evolution explains the universe. Ool is is always described in terms of evolution. What I read is that proteins organized them themselves into self replicating units. I can't say that evolution explains this .

542 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:52:24am

re: #502 chakal

Agreed.
But Moeller van den Bruck and Paul de Lagarde were not Nazis. They were useful to the Nazis. Moeller's book Das Dritte Reich was published in 1923. (Mein Kampf appeared in 1925 and 1926.)

Talk about fringe citations...

The motivations and affordances or Hitler are well documented. And evolutionary theory was not among them.

543 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:54:23am

re: #505 fiat_lux

What is simpler? Engaging a poster in debate or going for the ding down button. I can't figure it out. Any ideas, y'all?

As if I haven't shredded your gamy buttocks seven ways from Sunday multiple times...

544 chakal  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:57:55am

re: #405 gman

It's obvious you lean towards Stern's interpretation of the roots of German antisemitism. I'll take Goldhagen and his well documented facts any day over the superfluous Stern.

I've read about Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book Hitler's Willing Executioners and its near the top of my ever expanding to-read list. In fact, in a previous thread I have referred to it. I don't see that it's necessary to choose one over the other.

Stern is not dealing with the origins of German antisemitism in this book. Rather he calls his book "a study in the pathology of cultural criticism." In it he analyzes the work of three German critics, Paul de Lagarde, Julius Langbehen and Moeller van den Bruck. Darwin is not a headliner in the book, but as the passage I quoted shows, Darwin and Darwinism are not absent either. So outside of the world of ID versus evolution debate, the issue appears to recognized as legit scholarly inquiry.

545 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 12:59:45am

re: #510 beermeister

re: 487 Salamantis
You said:
"Adaptation to an environment via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection is evolution."

I wonder:
Are not most human genetic mutations negative and undesirable? I do know that most genetic mutations at birth and during life have negative consequences, whether they are deformities or diseases.

That's where environmental selection comes in. Those mutational population members that are unable to survive and reproduce die without leaving offspring, and their genetic contribution ends. In a way, modern humanity has buffered this process out of compassion. And it has reaped us benefits. Steven Hawking never would had survived to make his monumental contributions a thousand years ago.

546 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:01:53am

re: #529 fiat_lux

Sorry I missed you earlier. Wow ,you got plus seven on that one!,.Ool theories always frame it terms of evolution. Naturally occurring elements arranged themselves into amino acids. Then those naughty amino acids formed themselves into proteins. Those proteins evolved into cells that could replicate themselves and then, and only than, does evolution exert its muscle.

What's telling about this comment is your use of the word "naughty" when describing amino acids forming proteins. You really hold science in contempt, don't you?

547 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:02:24am

re: #512 fiat_lux

Evolution can not arbitrarily invoke itself when it is convenient. Ool is always theorized in the context of evolution.

Evolutionary theory does not gratuitously assume from where the original life populations orignnated.

548 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:04:45am

re: #515 fiat_lux

I was asking that question generally, but you have heard all of my "talking points", so , yeah ding me down if that is easier than engaging me in honest debate. More power to ya'.

You have amply and abundantly proven yourself to be impervious to honest debate.

Now call me a butt face. Again.

549 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:07:14am

re: #520 fiat_lux

I have always been honest. You might find my arguments lacking, but I have always bee sincere what I believe.

You switch sincerities more quickly and dextrously than Bangkok prostitutes change nylons.

550 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:07:54am

re: #510 beermeister

I wonder:
Are not most human genetic mutations negative and undesirable? I do know that most genetic mutations at birth and during life have negative consequences, whether they are deformities or diseases.

Would you call blue eyes "undesirable"?

551 Erik The Red  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:13:35am

re: #550 Sharmuta

Pretty much sums it up.

The mutation of brown eyes to blue represents neither a positive nor a negative mutation. It is one of several mutations such as hair colour, baldness, freckles and beauty spots, which neither increases nor reduces a human’s chance of survival. As Professor Eiberg says, “it simply shows that nature is constantly shuffling the human genome, creating a genetic cocktail of human chromosomes and trying out different changes as it does so.”

552 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:18:32am

re: #548 Salamantis

I did not call you a butt face.

553 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:20:12am

re: #526 chakal

Greetings Salamantis.

OT I was really touched by your story about the feral kitten you adopted and the comfort it brought to your mom. I also admire the way that you cared for your Dad. That post was really some of your best writing, (INMHO).

I recognize the point of what you are saying above. As you probably know the term "eugenics" was coined by Francis Galton, Charles Darwin's half cousin (they were grandsons of Erasmus Darwin). According to Wikipedia, Galton was apparently obsessed with the first chapter of Darwin's The Origin of Species "'Variation under Domestication' concerning the breeding of domestic animals."

So genetics DOES matter to you, ayy? I guess you would pre-emptively execute Bundy's or Dahmer's or Gacy's cousins - just in case (nuke 'em from orbit - it's the only way to be sure). And you know that what Darwin was writing about in that chapter was common knowlege among the agricultural class since time immemorial? Of course you do (doffing my best Mr. Rogers sweater). Which is why Plato was able to suggest applying animal husbandry to humans - complete with selective breeding and culling the herd - in The Republic, more than two thousand years before Charles Darwin was ever born.

554 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:21:57am

re: #552 fiat_lux

I did not call you a butt face.

You are a liar:

fiat_lux 12/04/2008 1:30:41 am PST

re: #542 Salamantis

Butt face, I understand science.You don't. You accept whatever comes down the pike.Ifeel sorry for you.

555 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:23:04am

re: #529 fiat_lux

Sorry I missed you earlier. Wow ,you got plus seven on that one!,.Ool theories always frame it terms of evolution. Naturally occurring elements arranged themselves into amino acids. Then those naughty amino acids formed themselves into proteins. Those proteins evolved into cells that could replicate themselves and then, and only than, does evolution exert its muscle.

Evolutionm kicks in only when there is life, which is defined as a population that absorbs sustenance from outside itself and can reproduce with high but not perfect fidenity.

556 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:25:23am

re: #546 Sharmuta

No, I used the word naughty because it is unexpected and inexplicable. No one knows how this happened. I hold science in the highest regard.

557 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:26:07am

re: #556 fiat_lux

How can I believe you? You are a liar.

558 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:28:52am

re: #530 fiat_lux

This is way beyond my understanding.I don't remember Newton trying to explain where matter came from. Please dumb this down for me.

Are you impervious to the english language? Mr. Secul just posted in [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
that Newton never proposed where matter came from.

Either you are irretriveably dense, or you are just trying to burn up Charles' host's memory and other Lizards' time refuting you. Which is it?

559 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:29:13am

re: #549 Salamantis

Thank you for comparing me to a Bangkok prostitute. Unlike you, I have no idea what they are like, but it must be a compliment.

560 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:30:44am

re: #535 fiat_lux

People: It began with elements, then amino acids then proteins. In other words, I did not say proteins came first. As far as life goes, yeah, proteins happened.

Life happens. And then it evolves.

561 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:32:09am

re: #559 fiat_lux

Thank you for comparing me to a Bangkok prostitute. Unlike you, I have no idea what they are like, but it must be a compliment.

I could have compared you to a TV evangelist changing promises, but that might have hit too close to home.

562 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:35:41am

re: #541 fiat_lux

I never said that, nor has it been claimed, that evolution explains the universe. Ool is is always described in terms of evolution. What I read is that proteins organized them themselves into self replicating units. I can't say that evolution explains this .

I can't say that celestial mechanics explains plate tectonics, even though all planets upon which plate tectonics is possibly occurring are revolving around their respective stars according to the laws of celestial mechanics. Is that a problem? NO.

563 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:38:19am

re: #544 chakal

I've read about Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book Hitler's Willing Executioners and its near the top of my ever expanding to-read list. In fact, in a previous thread I have referred to it. I don't see that it's necessary to choose one over the other.

Stern is not dealing with the origins of German antisemitism in this book. Rather he calls his book "a study in the pathology of cultural criticism." In it he analyzes the work of three German critics, Paul de Lagarde, Julius Langbehen and Moeller van den Bruck. Darwin is not a headliner in the book, but as the passage I quoted shows, Darwin and Darwinism are not absent either. So outside of the world of ID versus evolution debate, the issue appears to recognized as legit scholarly inquiry.

Any academic who thinks that (s)he can make money off of something if it gains popular traction will define it as legitimate scholarly inquiry.

564 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:41:30am

re: #554 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, Salamantis; Yes, I called Salamantis a butt face, now that it was posted, I recall it. Not one of my prouder moments. I owe extra apologies for not apologizing sooner.

565 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:42:51am

re: #554 Sharmuta

re: #552 fiat_lux

I did not call you a butt face.

You are a liar:

fiat_lux 12/04/2008 1:30:41 am PST

re: #542 Salamantis

Butt face, I understand science. You don't. You accept whatever comes down the pike.Ifeel sorry for you.

Busted!

Well and truly.

LGF posts endure forever. And they can always be found.

566 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:44:32am

re: #564 fiat_lux

Sharmuta, Salamantis; Yes, I called Salamantis a butt face, now that it was posted, I recall it. Not one of my prouder moments. I owe extra apologies for not apologizing sooner.

Once again, only after you were called out on it. The first time, I called you out on it; this time, it was Sharmie's turn.

567 chakal  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:44:59am

re: #418 Sharmuta

First- there is no such thing as "Darwinism" except in the minds of creationists.

Second- (since we know where this is going) Eugenics was around before Charles Darwin was a twinkle in the eye of his great-great-great-great grandfather.

Hello Sharmuta. I think I agree with most of your comments except those that are directed to me!

First, I can't agree with your first point. And neither does the Wikipedia article on Darwinism. And as the article points out "Richard Dawkins wrote in his collection of essays A Devil's Chaplain, published in 2003, that as a scientist he is a Darwinist."

Second, I can't agree with your second point either. Animal husbandry has been a topic of interest most likely way before Hesiod. But according to the Wikipedia article on Eugenics

"The modern field and term were first formulated by Sir Francis Galton in 1883, drawing on the recent work of his cousin Charles Darwin.

The same Wikipedia article goes on to say

"Sir Francis Galton systematized these ideas and practices according to new knowledge about the evolution of man and animals provided by the theory of his cousin Charles Darwin during the 1860s and 1870s. After reading Darwin's Origin of Species, Galton built upon Darwin's ideas whereby the mechanisms of natural selection were potentially thwarted by human civilization."

And good night to you and all in Lizardia. I'll check back in eight hours or so.

568 Erik The Red  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:48:10am

re: #564 fiat_lux

Sharmuta, Salamantis; Yes, I called Salamantis a butt face, now that it was posted, I recall it. Not one of my prouder moments. I owe extra apologies for not apologizing sooner.

You only remembered it because you were called out on it. LGF doesn't forget and the regulars will not let you forget.

569 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:49:56am

re: #567 chakal

Hello Sharmuta. I think I agree with most of your comments except those that are directed to me!

First, I can't agree with your first point. And neither does the Wikipedia article on Darwinism. And as the article points out "Richard Dawkins wrote in his collection of essays A Devil's Chaplain, published in 2003, that as a scientist he is a Darwinist."

Second, I can't agree with your second point either. Animal husbandry has been a topic of interest most likely way before Hesiod. But according to the Wikipedia article on Eugenics

"The modern field and term were first formulated by Sir Francis Galton in 1883, drawing on the recent work of his cousin Charles Darwin.

The same Wikipedia article goes on to say

"Sir Francis Galton systematized these ideas and practices according to new knowledge about the evolution of man and animals provided by the theory of his cousin Charles Darwin during the 1860s and 1870s. After reading Darwin's Origin of Species, Galton built upon Darwin's ideas whereby the mechanisms of natural selection were potentially thwarted by human civilization."

And good night to you and all in Lizardia. I'll check back in eight hours or so.

[Link: www.naturalhistorymag.com...]

Excerpt:

Some have said that Hitler founded his political philosophy on Darwinism. This is nonsense: doctrines of racial superiority in no way follow from natural selection, properly understood. Nevertheless, a good case can be made that a society run on Darwinian lines would be a very disagreeable society in which to live. But, yet again, the unpleasantness of a proposition has no bearing on its truth.

Huxley, George C. Williams, and other evolutionists have opposed Darwinism as a political and moral doctrine just as passionately as they have advocated its scientific truth. I count myself in that company. Science needs to understand natural selection as a force in nature, the better to oppose it as a normative force in politics. Darwin himself expressed dismay at the callousness of natural selection: “What a book a Devil’s Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low & horridly cruel works of nature!”

570 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:51:08am

re: #567 chakal

The concept of eugenics was around long before it was given the name "eugenics", as Thanos has pointed out numerous times. I trust him as a source.

571 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:51:41am

re: #568 Erik The Red

He's disingenuous to the core.

572 chakal  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:53:00am

re: #563 Salamantis

Any academic who thinks that (s)he can make money off of something if it gains popular traction will define it as legitimate scholarly inquiry.

LOL

573 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:55:10am

I may not be quick, but I'm broad and I'm deep. Most chicks like that...;~)

574 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:56:15am

re: #570 Sharmuta

The concept of eugenics was around long before it was given the name "eugenics", as Thanos has pointed out numerous times. I trust him as a source.

Ever since Plato, in The Republic.

575 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 1:59:29am

re: #568 Erik The Red

I only remembered it because I was reminded of it. And I owned up to it. I have been called much worse, repeatedly. That does not excuse it, I said what I said I am sorry.

576 fiat_lux  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:02:06am

re: #571 Sharmuta

And I am diseingenuos.

577 BlueCanuck  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:08:18am

re: #574 Salamantis

People of gold, silver, iron, and brass. If I remember correctly.

/philosophy of an anthill
//and all music should be moderated as well.

578 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 2:48:24am
"Terrorists who ruthlessly slaughter innocent people and who believe that problems can be resolved by violence and that conflict is inevitable are also nourished by Darwinist indoctrination. Darwinism is the life-blood of terror."
- Harpoon Yahyahyahyah

Hmmm...so now I get it, this explains one of Al Qaeda's earlier videos entitled:
DEATH TO CREATIONISTS - DARWIN (PBUH) WAS RIGHT!
/

579 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 3:16:13am

re: #577 BlueCanuck

People of gold, silver, iron, and brass. If I remember correctly.

/philosophy of an anthill
//and all music should be moderated as well.

Plato suggested in The Republic that all weak infants should be tossed down a ravine to die, and that the nation should be ruled by philosopher-kings, whose progeny should intermarry and rise to rule in their progenitors' stead, with the occasional inclusion of the overqchieving sport. Perhaps Athens was borrowing ideas from Sparta; they actually did that. Or perhaps Plato was simply extrapolating already-established animal husbandry principles of selective breeding and culling the herds to human populations.

But he went farther. He also recommended that only the best should be allowed to breed, and that the distinctly inferior should be disposed of. Of course such judgments are immoral even when they issue from the eyes and minds of the best and most well-intentioned of beholders (besides being empirically flawed, because some of our greatest geniuses were spawned from humble beginnings), but they become particularly heinous when those eyes belong to those who harbor racist agendas.

Evolutionary theorists would approve of none of this. They would say to let them all be born, and cared for, and to let environmental selection sort them out, and that would be best for the species as a whole. Eugenicists, on the other hand, would follow Plato's skeleton, fleshed out wiith their own pet criteria, and breed and butcher human beings according to their own pseudointelligent designs.

580 golly_wog  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 4:37:47am

Jacobs, I want to know absolutely
everything that's happened up till now!

JACOBS
First the earth cooled. Then the
dinosaurs came but were too big and died
and everything got rotten and turned into
oil and the Arabs bought Mercedes Benzs
and then there was the best TV special on
Judy Garland. Then we lost the war with
Albania. Then..

/Airplane II

581 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:13:43am

They might have a point, actually. From where I stand, a lot of Muslim countries stopped evolving a looong time ago.

582 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:30:42am

re: #428 stretch Another creationist without the Skill(maybe the will) to click a link.

583 Mr Secul  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:40:01am

re: #535 fiat_lux

People: It began with elements, then amino acids then proteins. In other words, I did not say proteins came first. As far as life goes, yeah, proteins happened.

My question was not clear, my bad.

You said re: #529 fiat_lux

Sorry I missed you earlier. Wow ,you got plus seven on that one!,.Ool theories always frame it terms of evolution. Naturally occurring elements arranged themselves into amino acids. Then those naughty amino acids formed themselves into proteins. Those proteins evolved into cells that could replicate themselves and then, and only than, does evolution exert its muscle.

I meant that Its unusual to claim that proteins came before RNA/DNA. I can't say that it didn't happen that way but the evidence suggests that RNAs came first, before proteins. The vast majority of the ribosome is made from RNA and the active site is RNA.

In eukaryotes the protein templates are stored as DNA, are transcribed to mRNA and are translated into proteins by the RNA based Ribosome with the help of tRNAs. RNAs can act as enzymes so its possible that early life didn't require proteins.

I think that the evolution connection to OOL is that proto-life would probably have been a system of imperfect replicators and therefore natural selection could have worked on variations between the imperfect replicators.

I've seen speculation that early life could have been lipid(?) vesicles surrounding RNA replicators. The vesicles would be permeable to small RNA molecules but impermeable to large RNA polymers. The RNA replicators are large RNA polymers. RNA replicators could form new replicators from free RNAs. This would attract RNAs from the surrounding solution into the vesicles. The polar RNA molecules attract water molecules and so draw in water and RNAs from the surroundings.

We know that lipid vesicles are easy to form and that some vesicles can grow by incorporating the membranes from other vesicles.

Vesicles that contain better RNA replicators may grow at the expense of vesicles without RNAs or with poor replicators. In a sense, they eat them!

As I said, that is all speculation but it is fun and suggests an evolutionary mechanism that could drive the evolution of life from RNA containing vesicles.

Things may have happened that way or they may have happened completely differently. We don't yet know enough to say. We may never know enough.

Time will tell.

584 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:40:49am

re: #510 beermeister
The predominance of Sicle Celled Anemia tho somewhat undesirable in Modern society was a genetic adaptation to combat malaria. most genetic adaptations have both good and bad with them a mutation which makes a species more fit for one environment can often make said species less fit in another.

585 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:42:48am

re: #512 fiat_lux
Which is why Darwins book(since he invented evolution///) is called "The origins of Life" oh wait no it is called "the Origins of the Species".

586 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:47:16am

re: #530 fiat_lux
Without matter there is no gravity hence Newton's theory of gravity can't exist without the origins of matter. Just like you say the theory of evolution can exist without explaining origins of life.

587 pingjockey  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:47:37am

re: #585 Rancher
Species, species? We don't need no stinkin' species. We got the guns.

588 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:49:54am

re: #537 Salamantis
Should we change the term now from Inelligent Design to commedically designed it fits so much better.

589 Mr Secul  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:54:45am

re: #579 Salamantis

Evolutionary theorists would approve of none of this. They would say to let them all be born, and cared for, and to let environmental selection sort them out, and that would be best for the species as a whole. Eugenicists, on the other hand, would follow Plato's skeleton, fleshed out wiith their own pet criteria, and breed and butcher human beings according to their own pseudointelligent designs.

Darwin said

Man selects only for his own good; Nature only for that of the being which she tends.

That is a far cry from eugenics or animal husbandry.

590 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:58:53am

re: #567 chakal
Just because Galton coined a new phrase for it and used his cousins name and recent recearch to add some bells and whistles doen't mean he invented it.

591 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:59:36am

re: #564 fiat_lux
Now shouldn't you apologize for calling him a liar.

592 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 6:02:58am

re: #513 Alberta Oil Peon

Walter, are you still here? I have a few fossils and mineral specimens myself. I could send you a specimen of stromatoporoid reef rock from the Devonian, if you'd like a piece.

Yes, that would be neat. Click on my name and you will see my address at my web site. I will send you some meteorite specimens in kind.

593 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 6:03:13am

Lol hate when I arrive late to the ID trollbake.
Been rustler all morning.

594 Rancher  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 6:04:54am

re: #592 Walter L. Newton
I may still have a few fossils I dug up in my youth out in hte Shale cliffs behind our home if I do since they are of little interest to me anymore I may just send em out to ya Walter.

595 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 6:13:16am

re: #567 chakal

Eugenics with a different name has been around since prehistory. It's a primitive barbaric notion of culling the weak to strengthen the tribe. Tribal nationalists adopted it before Darwin and Science itself really existed. Some form of it is found in almost every primitive society. (e.g. The inuit put their old out on ice floes, The Spartan practices with male boys, Plato' Republic, etc. etc.) The idiots who put pseudo-science trappings around the primitive notion to re-enable are tribal nationalist neo-primitives, which should be no surprise to anyone.

It's evolutionary biology that demonstrates the falsity of eugenics, and it's modern science that allows the weak to survive. Stephen Hawkings would not have lived past ten in a primitive society, in one with science he's able to contribute. One of my friends in Sacramento is a blind one-armed computer programmer, since birth he was handicapped. In a primitive society he would have died or been cast aside at early age. The more you attack science, the more you actually align with the neo-primitive tribal nationalist sorts.

596 joan  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 6:21:17am

"He believes that the theory of evolution is the cornerstone of Western ideology and that if he undermines evolution, it’s going to undermine Western society."

The mullah is correct to hate the findings of evolution, it is next to biology and physics as symbols of modernity and science. To repudiate them is to reverse centuries of developing complexity, including the rise of reason, individual rights and the Enlightenment. Theocratic totalitarianism requires a mindset that rejects reason and holds highest allegiance to the edicts of the mullahs, sole guardians and interpreters of an unknowable and capricious Deity.

597 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 7:06:33am
598 Born_to_lose  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:06:33am

I am sure this has been mentioned before, but is anyone really suprised by any of this, coming from the Islamic community, anyway? I mean, there is a movement amongst Christians, Evangelicals even, that accept the marriage between Intelligent Design AND Evolution (I being one of the people amongst this growing group), and also believe that Intelligent Design should STAY OUT of the classroom. However, Islam is a religion based on the hijacking of the two most important religions preceeded it, those being Judaism and Christianity, so why would anyone be suprised that they have stolen I.D./Creationism as their own ideal, distorted it, and just like the laws in which they want to live under (those of course dictated to them under Sharia), want to impose this upon the free world.

Look, I could debate all friggin' day long about this, but what it comes down to, and what Christians need to start understanding (especially to cut off any implication of ties WITH Islam) is to acknowledge that in both the old testament of the bible AND new, we are commanded to, first, Obey the laws of the land (Old), and (for christians, in the New Testament) Christ instructed his followers to give Caesar what was his (taxes, obeying the laws of the land), and give Christ what was His (which is one's undivided spritiual devotion). These are basically commands from God to separate Church and state, simple as that. And, furthermore, if you want your kids to learn about Intelligent Design during the school week, outside of your Church, SEND THEM TO PRIVATE SCHOOL! You cannot, and should not rely on the public school systems in this country to provide that kind of education to your/our children!

599 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:47:16am

re: #494 fiat_lux

What claim? That evolution doesn't explain ool?. It (evolution) pretends to explain everything else. It cannot begin at an arbitrary starting point for the convenience of its adherence.

The liar is back. "Not a creationist," it says.

Snort.

600 gman  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:51:30am

re: #544 chakal

I've read about Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book Hitler's Willing Executioners and its near the top of my ever expanding to-read list. In fact, in a previous thread I have referred to it. I don't see that it's necessary to choose one over the other.

Stern is not dealing with the origins of German antisemitism in this book. Rather he calls his book "a study in the pathology of cultural criticism." In it he analyzes the work of three German critics, Paul de Lagarde, Julius Langbehen and Moeller van den Bruck. Darwin is not a headliner in the book, but as the passage I quoted shows, Darwin and Darwinism are not absent either. So outside of the world of ID versus evolution debate, the issue appears to recognized as legit scholarly inquiry.

Read Goldhagen and you'll find out that antisemitism pervaded German society centuries before any of the 3 people Stern mentions in his book "Politics of Cultural Despair" were caught up in a personal zeitgeist. Hitler uses this historical and pervasive antisemitism as a tool in his quest for power. The brilliance of Goldhagen's book is that it shows that ordinary people are capable of the most brutal and unimaginable crimes, whereas earlier historians depicted Nazis as separate and detached from the rest of society, and Hitler as a symbolic anti-christ, rather than master manipulator.
Now, Goldhagen made a lot of enemies (this is an understatement) with his more "ordinary" personification of Nazis, but he has backed all of his assertions with evidence.

601 gman  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:57:07am

Here's one of the most infamous critiques of Goldhagen's work titled:
Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's 'Crazy' Thesis:
A Critique of Hitler's Willing Executioners

written by none other than the despicable Norman Finkelstein

602 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 9:21:54am

re: #599 Charles

It shouldn't surprise anyone to learn that Chakal is another 'non creationist'. From the Bush interview thread:

I am not a creationist, but I'm not particularly agitated by them either. There are a lot of other folks that worry me a lot more.

603 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 10:07:44am

re: #556 fiat_lux

No, I used the word naughty because it is unexpected and inexplicable. No one knows how this happened. I hold science in the highest regard.

You seem to spend alot of time ignoring that which you hold in highest regard.

604 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 3:36:45pm
605 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 5:34:54pm

There's nothing more boring than someone complaining about how bored a subject makes them.

Comments complaining about boredom or telling me to stop posting about this subject will be deleted.

This makes about 98 times I've had to post that.

606 Sarr  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 8:47:00pm

Who is the "Charles" guy and why does he post so much...GRIN
I

607 chakal  Fri, Dec 12, 2008 10:41:00pm

re: #569 Salamantis


Huxley, George C. Williams, and other evolutionists have opposed Darwinism as a political and moral doctrine just as passionately as they have advocated its scientific truth. I count myself in that company.

You can count me in on the first part of that, but, for now, I'll leave the second part in your capable hands, Charles's and the others', since you feel so strongly about it.


re: #600 gman

Read Goldhagen and you'll find out that antisemitism pervaded German society centuries before any of the 3 people Stern mentions in his book "Politics of Cultural Despair" were caught up in a personal zeitgeist. Hitler uses this historical and pervasive antisemitism as a tool in his quest for power. The brilliance of Goldhagen's book is that it shows that ordinary people are capable of the most brutal and unimaginable crimes, whereas earlier historians depicted Nazis as separate and detached from the rest of society, and Hitler as a symbolic anti-christ, rather than master manipulator.
Now, Goldhagen made a lot of enemies (this is an understatement) with his more "ordinary" personification of Nazis, but he has backed all of his assertions with evidence.

Thanks. My local public library has a copy. I put in a request for it today (Fri.) and will pick it up tomorrow.

Thanks to all who troubled to respond to my posts.

Two books I commend to your attention. The first I have already mentioned, Fritz Stern's The Politics of Cultural Despair: A study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology. The second is Ernst Cassirer's The Myth of the State.

And now, good night Lizardia.

608 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 8:52:30am

Again we see a stealth creationist attempting to distort the historical record and the words of a historian to serve a deceptive purpose. Here's what Fritz Stern really wrote about the causes of the Holocaust.

Fritz Stern, the noted Holocaust historian, professor emeritus at Columbia University, and refugee from Nazi Germany, doesn’t number Darwin and evolution among the chief factors that led up to the Holocaust. Higher on his list are the Protestant clergy, who he says were filled with anti-Semitic doctrine and shared Hitler's "hostility to the liberal-secular state and its defenders." Hitler, Stern believes, came to power by fusing racial dogma with Germanic Christianity. He probably saw himself as executing a divine mission.

"Some people recognized the moral perils of mixing religion and politics," says Stern, "but many more were seduced by it. It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured [Hitler's] success, notably in Protestant areas."


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 Frank says:

Seriousity is something to be laughed at. -- FZ responding to Dutch television after being told that Europeans take Frank's music very seriously.