I hope Bush doesn't cave in and bail them out.

UAW, no gubment welfare handout to you!

It'll still happen somehow, I'm sure.

Only a matter of time.

Just say no to drugs bail outs.

They will be bailed out...just wait and see

re: #1 turn

I hope Bush doesn't cave in and bail them out.

It's looking like he did. Or will.

Fat Jolly Penguin,

It'll still happen somehow, I'm sure.

President Bush will dip into the TARP.

Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."

I hate hairy red, I really do.

at least obama has the common sense not to give them a dime till they agree to some long-term restructuring.

You thought there were a lot of home foreclosures before. Wait until all those union people can't make their mortgage payment.

Alan Colmbes (sp?) says it's Republican union busting. Like that's a bad thing.

Our great country is so on the ropes...breaking my heart.

Now President Bush and Paulson want to ride to the automakers' rescue and ignore the fact that this failed.

Do GM and Chrysler file chapter 11 before the end of the year?

I think not as long as the Fed is waffling on the bailout.

Let them sink, I say. Dinosaurs are gone aren't they?

White House Bails Out Automakers: Everybody Wins, Save Taxpayers

The White House stepped into the breach early Friday, expressing support for Treasury to use TARP funds to bailout the U.S. automakers.

"Because Congress failed to act, we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry," said Treasury spokeswoman Brookly McLaughlin.

re: #12 gruvin

Alan Colmbes (sp?) says it's Republican union busting. Like that's a bad thing.

That idiot would blame a Republican for Chapaquidick.

IfWhen the car companies go under, what happens to the unions? No more dues coming in. 95% of employee wages being paid out. Health care still provided. It's a losing proposition for them isn't it?

re: #19 midwestgak

IfWhen the car companies go under, what happens to the unions? No more dues coming in. 95% of employee wages being paid out. Health care still provided. It's a losing proposition for them isn't it?

The unions will ask for their own bailouot.

/and with the incoming Congress, they just might get it. :(

re: #8 Dirk Diggler

Isn't it illegal? (Via Michelle Malkin.)

The UAW president had a whiny press conference today. He noted they won't discuss pay or benefit cuts and bankruptcy "is not an option".
Um, okay Mr. Negotiator, what is the solution? Oh, that's right, the taxpayers dump more money into your coffers.

These guys need to learn that these tactics don't work anymore.

re: #7 Lynn B.

It's looking like he did. Or will.

I read that link on Drudge, Perino quoted. I think this will be a mistake for Bush, what the hell is another 3 weeks or so going matter. Let O go down with the decision because it ain't going to work, they must go under to shake the unions. The UAW spoiled the bailout by refusing to budge on salaries. Let's see how well they do unemployed.

re: #9 VegasRick

Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."

I hate hairy red, I really do.

You can choke him when I'm finished.

... squeezes harder

US auto manufacturers would not NEED a bail out if they produced cars that people want to buy at prices they can afford to pay. Foreign auto makers have figured this out so why not the Big 3?

This whole situation is a big f**kin joke...

I am sick of it...

re: #23 turn

I read that link on Drudge, Perino quoted. I think this will be a mistake for Bush, what the hell is another 3 weeks or so going matter. Let O go down with the decision because it ain't going to work, they must go under to shake the unions. The UAW spoiled the bailout by refusing to budge on salaries. Let's see how well they do unemployed.

They're very sure of themselves. Unfortunately, for good reason.

You know, I have stood by Bush and defended him for 8 years but this is the last straw.

re: #23 turn

I read that link on Drudge, Perino quoted. I think this will be a mistake for Bush, what the hell is another 3 weeks or so going matter. Let O go down with the decision because it ain't going to work, they must go under to shake the unions. The UAW spoiled the bailout by refusing to budge on salaries. Let's see how well they do unemployed.

I think their contracts stipulate that they get 4 years pay at full salary if laid off.

re: #12 gruvin

Alan Colmbes (sp?) says it's Republican union busting. Like that's a bad thing.

He probably drives a foreign car, f#@$ him.

re: #25 CIA Reject

US auto manufacturers would not NEED a bail out if they produced cars that people want to buy at prices they can afford to pay. Foreign auto makers have figured this out so why not the Big 3?

Agreed. But they also might not need a bailout if the unions hadn't been bleeding them dry for the past umpteen years.

re: #28 livefreeor die

You know, I have stood by Bush and defended him for 8 years but this is the last straw.

Funny- I did not for 8 years, but this last year, I did. . .maybe someone slipped him some kool aid. . .

For God's sake, letting them go bankrupt would be the best thing that could happen to the auto industry in America. The Big Three failed! Let something better take their place!

re: #29 Wishing

I think their contracts stipulate that they get 4 years pay at full salary if laid off.

Something like that. . .

Fat Jolly Penguin,

Isn't it illegal? (Via Michelle Malkin.)

Probably but the American people aren't going to do a damn thing about it.

re: #28 livefreeor die

You know, I have stood by Bush and defended him for 8 years but this is the last straw.

Yeah, I'm not going to vote for him again either.

/sorry ... couldn't resist.

TARP funds will have no strings attached?
No requirement for the UAW to lower their wage/benefit package?
Why do this?
Chapter 11 would actually do it better for all of us.

Posted this earlier.

Hey Mr. Middlefinger, President of the UAW. I don't two shits what Toyota, Honda and Nissan are paying their workers. The companies you represent are broke and asking for our money. This means everyone in the Big Three have to make concessions and cut cost. I'm sure if the worker you represent would want 80% of what they currently have than 100% of nothing.

Mr. President, with all do respect...Stay out of this, Paulson will fuck it up.

The White House stepped into the breach early Friday

"Breach"? I thought it had a different name.

(scraping dogbreach off my shoe)

re: #31 Lynn B.

Agreed. But they also might not need a bailout if the unions hadn't been bleeding them dry for the past umpteen years.

Why did they allow that to happen?

Didn't they know that this would eventually hit them in the bottom line?

Did someone say Fairness Doctrine?

"I think the party has to stop shouting at the world and at the country,"Powell said. "I think that the party has to take a hard look at itself, and I've talked to a number of leaders in recent weeks and they understand that." Powell, who says he still considers himself a
Republican, said his party should also stop listening to conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh.

"Can we continue to listen to Rush Limbaugh?" Powell asked. "Is this really the kind of party that we want to be when these kinds of spokespersons seem to appeal to our lesser instincts rather than our better instincts?"

Zakaria's full interview with Powell will air Sunday at 1 p.m. ET on CNN.

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

re: #31 Lynn B.

Agreed. But they also might not need a bailout if the unions hadn't been bleeding them dry for the past umpteen years.

Read Rivethead by Michael Moore's buddy (he states in the book that Moore took the tat he always wears from him)

See the story of the average auto worker. . .look it up

re: #36 Lynn B.

Yeah, I'm not going to vote for him again either.

/sorry ... couldn't resist.

No, that's a good one :)
I just feel betrayed-I feel like he's ignoring an important point that was made by this bail-out not passing and doing whatever the hell he wants to at this point.

re: #15 CyanSnowHawk

Do GM and Chrysler file chapter 11 before the end of the year?

I think not as long as the Fed is waffling on the bailout.

I have a feeling their cries about "eminent collapse" are exaggerated, this can wait until O is in office. The dems want Bush to be saddled with this decision.

re: #38 jorline

Posted this earlier.

Hey Mr. Middlefinger, President of the UAW. I don't two shits what Toyota, Honda and Nissan are paying their workers. The companies you represent are broke and asking for our money. This means everyone in the Big Three have to make concessions and cut cost. I'm sure if the worker you represent would want 80% of what they currently have than 100% of nothing.

Mr. President, with all do respect...Stay out of this, Paulson will fuck it up.

PIMF...the workers

re: #41 midwestgak
sorry - forgot OT

Did someone say Fairness Doctrine?

"I think the party has to stop shouting at the world and at the country,"Powell said. "I think that the party has to take a hard look at itself, and I've talked to a number of leaders in recent weeks and they understand that." Powell, who says he still considers himself a
Republican, said his party should also stop listening to conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh.

"Can we continue to listen to Rush Limbaugh?" Powell asked. "Is this really the kind of party that we want to be when these kinds of spokespersons seem to appeal to our lesser instincts rather than our better instincts?"

Zakaria's full interview with Powell will air Sunday at 1 p.m. ET on CNN.

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

re: #35 Dirk Diggler

Fat Jolly Penguin,

Probably but the American people aren't going to do abe able to do damn thing about it.

Illinoise AG holding press conference. Live stream here:
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

re: #25 CIA Reject

US auto manufacturers would not NEED a bail out if they produced cars that people want to buy at prices they can afford to pay. Foreign auto makers have figured this out so why not the Big 3?

The big three are hamstrung by the UAW and don't have the flexibility to respond to sudden upheavals the way the foreign automakers can. Up until gas went crazy, they were making the cars/trucks/SUVs that people wanted, and until the housing market tanked, they were 'affordable'. The union has been in a position of great strength for their contract negotiations for a very long time, and this is the end result.

If the Government bails these clowns out, I have bought my LAST American car. I'll ride a unicycle if I have to.

Bailout or no GM just announced its closing 21 factories in the US.

re: #51 mean Gene

Bailout or no GM just announced its closing 21 factories in the US.

Interesting timing. Let the scare tactics begin.

re: #29 Wishing

I think their contracts stipulate that they get 4 years pay at full salary if laid off.

I'm under the impression that everything is renegotiable in Chapter 13. Help lizards?

re: #11 freedomplow

You thought there were a lot of home foreclosures before. Wait until all those union people can't make their mortgage payment.

Or their boat payment, or their motorcycle payment, or the mortgage on their house up at the lake ... Yeah, I really don't care.

re: #49 CyanSnowHawk

The big three are hamstrung by the UAW and don't have the flexibility to respond to sudden upheavals the way the foreign automakers can. Up until gas went crazy, they were making the cars/trucks/SUVs that people wanted, and until the housing market tanked, they were 'affordable'. The union has been in a position of great strength for their contract negotiations for a very long time, and this is the end result.

I will add that the unions did not realize their folly and STILL do not. . .

Damn it Bush, if you cave into these UAW bloodsuckers, YOU REALLY [EXPLETIVE DELETED] SUCK!

General Motors Corporation (GM) Key Statistics

Market Cap (intraday): 2.24B
Total Cash (mrq): 15.90B
Total Debt (mrq): 45.16B

Giving them another $15B will in no way solve this math problem, it's just throwing good taxpayer money down a hole!

/[expletive deleted] these assholes, Chapter 11 is the only way GM has a chance of ever being viable

re: #53 livefreeor die

Interesting timing. Let the scare tactics begin.

You read my mind.

re: #28 livefreeor die

You know, I have stood by Bush and defended him for 8 years but this is the last straw.

Would give you 10,000 updings if I could!

re: #56 DisturbedEma

I will add that the unions did not realize their folly and STILL do not. . .

I agree. They have milked the system for so long that they seem to feel it's their due.

re: #52 buzzsawmonkey

That's unicorn cycle, as of January 20.

Make that a pogo stick.

re: #40 CIA Reject

Why did they allow that to happen?

Didn't they know that this would eventually hit them in the bottom line?

I don't think they believed (and I use the term in the sense of blind faith, not reason) that they could ever hit the bottom on the bottom line. Not to mention they've had every reason to expect a safety net because of all the things we're hearing now. They're "too big to fail," "too important to the economy," etc. The implicit message has been, no matter how badly you eff things up, you'll always be rescued. No real consequences.

Well, the message itself has consequences. We're seeing them now. We've been seeing them for a while.

re: #57 Killian Bundy

I'm no accountant, but even I can smell a bad company from that.

re: #60 livefreeor die

I agree. They have milked the system for so long that they seem to feel it's their due.

Let them eat cake. . .UAW style!

The auto industry has built itself up to higher global production capacity than is necessary. Sales are down, profits are down, and too many cars are being made worldwide for the current consumption to absorb them. Forcing taxpayers to continue to subsidize part of the overcapacity isn't going to change this oversupply problem.

Technically these are considered loans, not a bailout. Technically GM and Chrysler are asking for loans not Ford.

re: #57 Killian Bundy

That's like the graphic on TV a couple of nights ago that proved we taxpayers could own all the ''big three'' 100% for LESS than we'll pay bailing them out.

re: #10 SpaceJesus

at least obama has the common sense not to give them a dime till they agree to some long-term restructuring.

What? ...

re: #61 maddogg

Make that a pogo stick.

Make that an IT

And the scum-sucking UAW, who would NOT concede to wage cuts, are blaming the Republicans for the failure. Well, F*CK THEM, I will NEVER buy another new GM/Chrysler/Ford AGAIN, you c*cksucking a$$holes, as long as the UAW continues to suck the lifeblood ('n like i said, they suck other stuff, too) out of the country. F*ck the unions, how are you going to pay those hyper-inflated wages when you s#itstains drive the Big 3 outta business? FOAD!

I HATE UNIONS, BUST 'EM UP AND LET THEIR LEADERS ROT!

(yeah, i have little love for unions [spit], can ya tell?)

Hey Bush isn't all bad, at least his (and Rice's) appeasement of North Korea is working out.

Or not

In Setback for Bush, Korea Nuclear Talks Collapse

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Bolton- as always- was right.

re: #33 joncelli

For God's sake, letting them go bankrupt would be the best thing that could happen to the auto industry in America. The Big Three failed! Let something better take their place!

If everbody starts buying Toyotas or other domestically produced cars then those mfgs would be forced to ramp up and in the process hire back laid off workers at a more reasonable salary. Win-win.

I love how the unions are clamoring for pay increases to be added and covered under this bailout. during a recession no less... when millions of Americans from other sectors of the economy are wondering where their jobs went. fuck them.

re: #1 turn

I hope Bush doesn't cave in and bail them out.

I sent him an email yesterday letting him know that as his supervisor I expect him to stop bailing out failed greedy capitalists.

"Baby you won't buy our cars"

Bleep bleep'm bleep bleep, yeah
Asked a union where they wanted to be
They said lobbying in DC
I wanna be pullin, a fat pension in
But you can have my votes in return
Baby you can buy my debt
Yes we know our cars are s---
Harry you can be our pet
And we will elect you

I told the fed that my prospects were good
And they said baby it's understood
Making peanuts is all very fine
Protectionism helps our bottom line
Baby you can bail me out
The taxpayers are going to shout
The CEOs are corrupt louts
And they will protect you

Bleep bleep'm bleep bleep yeah
Baby you wont’ buy our cars (you won’t buy our cars)
Yes, I'm gonna lobby hard (I wanna lobby hard)
So if you don’t go buy our cars
Then baby we’ll tax you (bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep yeah)

I told the legislature help me today
And they said baby I got something to say
You can’t sell cars and it's breaking my heart
But you’ve got union votes and that's a start
Baby they won’t buy your cars
Detroit’s getting hit real hard
So reach into the cookie jar
And we’ll quid pro quo you
Bleep bleep'm bleep bleep yeah
Bleep bleep'm bleep bleep yeah
Bleep bleep'm bleep bleep yeah
Bleep bleep'm bleep bleep yeah

/there we go now it's on the right thread...

re: #68 mean Gene

That's like the graphic on TV a couple of nights ago that proved we taxpayers could own all the ''big three'' 100% for LESS than we'll pay bailing them out.

Keep in mind you'd be buying all that debt too though. Hence, no one wants to buy them. Not even for a dollar

re: #65 jaunte

The auto industry has built itself up to higher global production capacity than is necessary. Sales are down, profits are down, and too many cars are being made worldwide for the current consumption to absorb them. Forcing taxpayers to continue to subsidize part of the overcapacity isn't going to change this oversupply problem.

Idea from someone I cannot remember; Give every American a 10,000 stimulus check to buy a car off the lot- why are we giving funds to companies when it is the people who cannot afford to buy the product in huge numbers. . .

re: #53 livefreeor die

re: #51 mean Gene

Bailout or no GM just announced its closing 21 factories in the US.

Interesting timing. Let the scare tactics begin.

Is that a tactic or just an acknowledgment of reality?

re: #57 Killian Bundy

Chapter 11 is the only way GM has a chance of ever being viable

Yep.

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

Hey, scoff all you want to; I'm gonna go out next year and buy myself the new GM Breadline!

With Nancy (i so dum) Pelosi running the production, I expect it will be about the size of a bread box, and be equipped with pedals.

re: #71 Clutch

And the scum-sucking UAW, who would NOT concede to wage cuts, are blaming the Republicans for the failure. Well, F*CK THEM, I will NEVER buy another new GM/Chrysler/Ford AGAIN, you c*cksucking a$$holes, as long as the UAW continues to suck the lifeblood ('n like i said, they suck other stuff, too) out of the country. F*ck the unions, how are you going to pay those hyper-inflated wages when you s#itstains drive the Big 3 outta business? FOAD!

I HATE UNIONS, BUST 'EM UP AND LET THEIR LEADERS ROT!

(yeah, i have little love for unions [spit], can ya tell?)

string up the damn union leaders next to the CEOs! sons of bitches.

re: #73 turn

If everbody starts buying Toyotas or other domestically produced cars then those mfgs would be forced to ramp up and in the process hire back laid off workers at a more reasonable salary. Win-win.

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

re: #57 Killian Bundy

/[expletive deleted] these assholes, Chapter 11 is the only way GM has a chance of ever being viable

Building a car anyone wants to buy would also help.

re: #28 livefreeor die

You know, I have stood by Bush and defended him for 8 years but this is the last straw.

same here...and it makes me feel like I've been raped.

Just test-drove a Segway.
You can't even handle one grocery bag (OK reusable cloth-ish bag) and drive it safely.
Neighbor has a unicycle.
I'll ask for lessons.

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

Cut off your nose to spite your face?

Are Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai facing bankruptcy?

re: #51 mean Gene

Bailout or no GM just announced its closing 21 factories in the US.

Who is saying that? I don't see anything on WSJ or Drudge.

re: #78 DisturbedEma

why are we giving funds to companies when it is the people who cannot afford to buy the product in huge numbers. . .

Very true. Makes no sense to go in the hole to keep running a manufacturing line when you've oversupplied the demand for your product.

re: #65 jaunte

The auto industry has built itself up to higher global production capacity than is necessary. Sales are down, profits are down, and too many cars are being made worldwide for the current consumption to absorb them. Forcing taxpayers to continue to subsidize part of the overcapacity isn't going to change this oversupply problem.

* * *
Toyota is cutting production! In today's news.
Toyota pays attention to its customers and to business.
Toyota executives aren't such fat cats probably,
nor are Toyota workers either.

I live in this UAW infested cesspool called Detroit. This is a thug organization. They are bullies and brutes.

This fix won't work.
Same time next year, we'll be in the same boat except taxpayers will be on the hook for billions.

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

Those folks are long dead.

The bailout will occur, either now or under Obama.

re: #90 buzzsawmonkey

I would never want to "drive" something that sounds like a supermarket.

It was a lot of fun but not practical at all.
(And those supermarkets went out of business here YEARS ago!)

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

I thought that was Mitsubishi. Didn't they make the Zero?

re: #90 buzzsawmonkey

I would never want to "drive" something that sounds like a supermarket.

I understand just stepping up on one shrinks your nads to raisins.

re: #96 rawmuse

The bailout will occur, either now or under Obama.

Let it be on Obama's watch. Then the Democrats can't hide from their responsibility for it.

I am right wing in my politics, but there is a point at which you say that shooting yourself in the foot does not accomplish much. #1 This is not a bailout in the sense that unka gives them the funds and then does not have a claim on them to get them back. They will be super-senior priority loans to the extent that the covenants on the currently outstanding loans allow. #2 I am a vulture/distressed debt investor by style. I have lived through more than one bk. Even a prepack takes a long time and a lot of money. With the number of people involved in GM, it is not likely a prepack could ever be put together. #3 Chucking that many people out on the street all at once is going to really crash the economy. You do that at your peril. I would rather loan somebody 15 bn (after all they loaned American Express 3.5 bn) with the hope of getting it back rather than suffering the certainty of a large loss of income from taxation, etc.

re: #90 buzzsawmonkey

I would never want to "drive" something that sounds like a supermarket.

Then you're going to hate the new Stop and Shop 2009 Cart Convertible.

re: #49 CyanSnowHawk

The big three are hamstrung by the UAW and don't have the flexibility to respond to sudden upheavals the way the foreign automakers can. Up until gas went crazy, they were making the cars/trucks/SUVs that people wanted, and until the housing market tanked, they were 'affordable'. The union has been in a position of great strength for their contract negotiations for a very long time, and this is the end result.

I understand that the union is the (and I apologize in advance for using the term) "root cause" of the problem, but IMHO management is equally to blame for not, well MANAGING, the situation with the union. Left unto itself the union will seek to just suck up resources without end and it appears that management was happy to just sit back and let that happen- with the obvious result.

Several years ago the airline industry was in the same situation vis-a-vis unions but the management there faced the problem and got at least a modicum of cooperation with the unions- granted it took chapter 11 in many cases to do it, but management was willing to do what it took to get back on a stable footing.

Needless to say if I was a stockholder in any of the big 3 I would be extremely dissatisfied with management's performance in this situation.

re: #88 simonml

Cut off your nose to spite your face?

No, it's just like buying a car from the people that brought you 9/11. It's no different, IMHO.

Mexican Playboy Publishes Nude Virgin Mary on Cover

...riots ensue, Mexican embassies around the world are besieged by angry mobs... no?

Speaking of cars, why would you need an SUV here.

re: #91 CyanSnowHawk

Who is saying that? I don't see anything on WSJ or Drudge.

[Link: news.google.com...]

re: #89 Racer X

Are Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai facing bankruptcy?

Honda is in some serious trouble according word on the street. They've pulled out of Formula 1 racing, and are doing major cutbacks in production.

I guess we'll get to find out if GM's cashflow problems are as dire as GM execs claimed.

My guess is that GM will manage to avoid bankruptcy court until it can get a better deal from next year's new, more union-friendly federal government.

Unfortunately. Because what GM needs can only be forced by a bankruptcy court.

As for the UAW, union work rules and JOBS banks both give thethe UAW far more dues-paying members than it would otherwise have-- and therefore they'll not voluntarily give up either. Because, the UAW is also a business- perhaps a parasitic one, but a business nonetheless. And it doesn't intend to die just because its host isn't feeling so well lately.

Blago has been removed from office!

re: #68 mean Gene

That's like the graphic on TV a couple of nights ago that proved we taxpayers could own all the ''big three'' 100% for LESS than we'll pay bailing them out.

/you could buy all the common stock for GM and Ford for ~$5B, Chrysler is privately owned by fat cat hedge fund Cerebus, so I don't even have a [expletive deleted] clue why we're even thinking about bailing them out

re: #91 CyanSnowHawk

Who is saying that? I don't see anything on WSJ or Drudge.

Reported on FOX as well.

re: #71 Clutch

I commend you on your vocabulary, much more diverse than Blago :.)

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

Pearl Harbor?

You're kidding me.

Do you also boycott Thomas' English Muffins, to protest the War of 1812?

re: #89 Racer X
Got these figures from the Limbaugh show.

2007:

Toyota sells 9.7 million cars. Profit is ~17 billion

GM sells 9.7 million cars. Loss is ~30 billion.

Gee...sounds like UAW vampires and piss poor management to me...

re: #104 Honorary Yooper

No, it's just like buying a car from the people that brought you 9/11. It's no different, IMHO.

I understand what you're saying. Would you stop trading with all countries that have fought the US? That would be noble if nothing else. Seems futile to me though

re: #108 Honorary Yooper

Honda is in some serious trouble according word on the street. They've pulled out of Formula 1 racing, and are doing major cutbacks in production.

Sounds like smart moves to me. They've looked at the horizon and have seen that changes need to be made to remain viable.

re: #110 Kenneth

oh... it's a motion that has been filed with a court.

re: #102 opinionated

re: #90 buzzsawmonkey

I would never want to "drive" something that sounds like a supermarket.

Then you're going to hate the new Stop and Shop 2009 Cart Convertible.

Or Harley-Davidson's new "Hoggly-Woggly".

re: #75 Racer X

I sent him an email yesterday letting him know that as his supervisor I expect him to stop bailing out failed greedy capitalists.

Lay him off in three weeks ...

I really think the American auto industry has become a scam. Management and the Unions have conspired for decades to establish a business model where both sides are milking the taxpayers. They are betting that they are "too big to fail" and we'll keep bailing them out every 10-15 years. We are getting screwed.

Bush has lead us into socialism. The American government is now subsidizing nonfunctional private industries because we deem them "too big to fail". We are only postponing the inevitable collapse.

re: #110 Kenneth
Is that what I'm hearing?
It sounds like Madigan is politely asking for the removal from judges, the Ill Supreme Court.

re: #110 Kenneth

Blago has been removed from office!

It's a temporary measure, but will prevent him from choosing a successor for Obama in the Senate.

re: #62 Lynn B.

I don't think they believed (and I use the term in the sense of blind faith, not reason) that they could ever hit the bottom on the bottom line. Not to mention they've had every reason to expect a safety net because of all the things we're hearing now. They're "too big to fail," "too important to the economy," etc. The implicit message has been, no matter how badly you eff things up, you'll always be rescued. No real consequences.

Well, the message itself has consequences. We're seeing them now. We've been seeing them for a while.

Agreed. But they were fools to believe that they were too big and too important to fail- especially after seeing how the entire defense industry (which is just as big and arguably even more important) was allowed to simply implode during the 1990's.

re: #35 Dirk Diggler

Maybe it isn't technically illegal:

FINANCIAL INSTITUTION- The term ‘financial institution’ means any institution, including, but not limited to, any bank, savings association, credit union, security broker or dealer, or insurance company, established and regulated under the laws of the United States or any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the District of Columbia, Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, American Samoa, or the United States Virgin Islands, and having significant operations in the United States, but excluding any central bank of, or institution owned by, a foreign government.

Relevant bit bolded. They left themselves an out, it seems.

re: #79 doppelganglander

Is that a tactic or just an acknowledgment of reality?

I hope GM declares bankruptcy before they get bailed out.
I have no clue what the company would morph into, but I think it would be sustainable. Something drastic needs to happen to wake up the union.

As a resident of Southeastern Michigan:

Oh Lord, people don't even know what we're getting into. The Formerly-big Three are going to be the Amrtrack of automakers.

re: #104 Honorary Yooper

No, it's just like buying a car from the people that brought you 9/11. It's no different, IMHO.

Um... you really don't see anything different from buying a Japanese product today, and buying an al Qaeda product (whatever that would be) today?

Does the fact the we have defense treaties with Japan not indicate a teensy difference to you?

Does the fact that the Japanese consistently poll as being among the most pro-American people on the planet not matter?

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Well you can always buy a hyundai. They are Korean or you could wait for a tata from India to pass safety and emission stardust and have a car for under $5k

Dear WH and Congress,

Thank you for spending my tax dollars on saving the auto industry. Since you have seen fit to pay them off, I can now see they don't need me anymore. Thanks to you, I know I will never by another vehicle from any of these companies ever again, and will urge everyone I know to do the same since they already got our money, what do they need us for?

Please let us know what other industries you plan to bail out so I know who else I can never give money to gain. Thanks again.

re: #104 Honorary Yooper

No, it's just like buying a car from the people that brought you 9/11. It's no different, IMHO.

It's been 60+ years and everyone involved is dead. Their government is entirely different and is now our ally, I think it's time to let it go.

/happy Toyota owner -- 8 years, 179K miles, never had a serious problem.

America is being raped by these cocksuckers. They expect the Government - YOU AND ME - to bail them out when they make piss poor decisions.

I say let them fail. It will create an opportunity for someone else to come in and make cars that Americans will buy.

re: #122 mean Gene

Is that what I'm hearing?
It sounds like Madigan is politely asking for the removal from judges, the Ill Supreme Court.

Madigan's daughter in line for the Governorship. Very interesting.

World markets take a beating on bailout failure; Update: White House “considering” TARP fund loan; Update: TARP funds coming

Update: Fox Business just issued an on-air report at noon ET saying that Treasury has indeed decided to use TARP funds for the bailout. I told you so.

Oh and btw, Honda just announced a 110K cut in their car production. This is more than mis-management on the part of Detroit. To be sure, when they had a lock on the market, they gave in to the UAW and passed it along to the consumer. That model obviously does not work any more. Basic problem is that nobody is buying cars. Look at the parking lot at the Port Of LA. Lotsa ricers, German made cars, all imported and just sitting there with no place to go.

Personally, I want the US to be potentially self sufficient in autos etc. We would have lost WW 2 if Rosie the Riveter was not a Ford employee because there was no Ford and Germany and Japan supplied our cars. tanks, trucks, etc. But maybe this is what the "Change" is going to be about. We will issue stamps with Rosie on them and the slogan "No We Can't"

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

* * *
Give it a rest. Anyone making a Toyota HERE IN THE USA likely wasn't flying planes for Emperor Hirohito back in 1941.

O/T

. Illinois Attorney General has filed a plea with the State Supreme Court to have Gov. Blagojevich removed from office.

that would be emission standards (ACMA)

re: #132 Racer X

America is being raped by these cocksuckers. They expect the Government - YOU AND ME - to bail them out when they make piss poor decisions.

I say let them fail. It will create an opportunity for someone else to come in and make cars that Americans will buy.

that's insane, do you have any idea what would happen to the economy? the entire supply chain that feeds the auto industry? millions and millions of jobs?

re: #121 Killgore Trout

I really think the American auto industry has become a scam. Management and the Unions have conspired for decades to establish a business model where both sides are milking the taxpayers. They are betting that they are "too big to fail" and we'll keep bailing them out every 10-15 years. We are getting screwed.

Bush has lead us into socialism. The American government is now subsidizing nonfunctional private industries because we deem them "too big to fail". We are only postponing the inevitable collapse.

Egg Zactly

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Some of us will never buy Toyotas. I, for one, will never buy a car from the folks that brought us Peral Harbor. Screw them.

My father flew 26 mission sover Germany in a B17, got hit by flak, recovered in a hospital in England for three weeks then returned home. He buried the hatchet, became close friends with our neighbors who were German immigrants. They were not the same people he fought in the war. I loved my dad.

I think its weird that during the night foreign markets took a bath on the news that the bailout failed but OUR markets are doing OK because of this TARP idea.

re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dear WH and Congress,

Thank you for spending my tax dollars on saving the auto industry. Since you have seen fit to pay them off, I can now see they don't need me anymore. Thanks to you, I know I will never by another vehicle from any of these companies ever again, and will urge everyone I know to do the same since they already got our money, what do they need us for?

Please let us know what other industries you plan to bail out so I know who else I can never give money to gain. Thanks again.

AWESOME! LOL

re: #141 turn

Hey that works sooover Germany

re: #114 Occasional Reader

Pearl Harbor?

You're kidding me.

Do you also boycott Thomas' English Muffins, to protest the War of 1812?

Yep. I will not eat tacos or burritos because of the Mex/Amer war. Well...I do have a taco quite often bit NO BURRITOS!

re: #139 SpaceJesus

that's insane, do you have any idea what would happen to the economy? the entire supply chain that feeds the auto industry? millions and millions of jobs?

But those attitudes are what keep this whole mess going-"Give us what we want or the economy takes a hit." At what point do we set limits on the s--t these guys keep shoveling?

re: #123 Honorary Yooper

It's a temporary measure, but will prevent him from choosing a successor for Obama in the Senate.

Madigan's father, House Speaker and longtime Blagojevich rival Michael Madigan, has expressed private reservations about the use of the state Supreme Court to remove the chief executive of the state.

I had to Google to make sure Madigan was a Democrat.
What's surprising is that a Democrat would disapprove of the use of the judicial system to accomplish something like this.

Where is the AG on this idea? According to Andrew Grossman at Heritage's Foundry blog the president's end run around the senate is illegal.

[Link: blog.heritage.org...]

Someone needs to tell him not to do this.

re: #139 SpaceJesus

that's insane, do you have any idea what would happen to the economy? the entire supply chain that feeds the auto industry? millions and millions of jobs?

Someone will come in and buy up their assets and start making cars again. There will always be demand.

re: #22 livefreeor die

The UAW president had a whiny press conference today. He noted they won't discuss pay or benefit cuts and bankruptcy "is not an option".
Um, okay Mr. Negotiator, what is the solution? Oh, that's right, the taxpayers dump more money into your coffers.

These guys need to learn that these tactics don't work anymore.

Gettelfinger also said
"They're always trying to blame labor. The rank and file could work for free through January and it still wouldn't solve the problem".

OK. So you have a huge business with free labor for 2 monts and they still can't survive? And you want my/our money for what?

re: #150 Racer X

Someone will come in and buy up their assets and start making cars again. There will always be demand.

And the autoworkers, after holding their breath and no one caring if they turn blue, will quietly take jobs with the new companies and be glad to have work.

re: #136 alegrias

* * *
Give it a rest. Anyone making a Toyota HERE IN THE USA likely wasn't flying planes for Emperor Hirohito back in 1941.

Hey, don't think we've forgotten the Maine, there, señor!

See if you catch me buying a bottle of Rioja anytime soon!

/

re: #150 Racer X

Someone will come in and buy up their assets and start making cars again. There will always be demand.

Buy the assets, give the UAW the finger, and go south to a right to work state.

re: #94 Shug

I live in this UAW infested cesspool called Detroit. This is a thug organization. They are bullies and brutes.

This fix won't work.
Same time next year, we'll be in the same boat except taxpayers will be on the hook for billions.

Shug, I'm taking your word on that. Bailout is a bad idea.

re: #106 AuntAcid

Speaking of cars, why would you need an SUV here.

For the Utility, not so much the Sport.

Wish the attorney general would take as much interest in the voting fraud and the regular ole day to day pay to play that goes on in Illinois ...seems they stepped up to the plate pretty fast on this one when it reflects badly on The One ...

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

What do you think burned down the White House?

That was the toaster's fault.

The U.S.S. Maine was an inside job!

re: #152 livefreeor die

And the autoworkers, after holding their breath and no one caring if they turn blue, will quietly take jobs with the new companies and be glad to have work.

Ed Zachary!

re: #95 MandyManners

Those folks are long dead.

Exactly ...

Forget pearl harbor... I wont step foot into a stuckeys as to never forget the south's actions during the civil war

re: #151 ROP?LOL

Gettelfinger also said
"They're always trying to blame labor. The rank and file could work for free through January and it still wouldn't solve the problem".

OK. So you have a huge business with free labor for 2 monts and they still can't survive? And you want my/our money for what?

/GM's cash burn rate is ~5B/month, why should taxpayers stoke that fire?

re: #107 mean Gene

[Link: news.google.com...]

kthx. You left the Temporarily part out of your early comment however.

re: #104 Honorary Yooper

No, it's just like buying a car from the people that brought you 9/11. It's no different, IMHO.

* * *
Hate to break it to you, but you/we/everyone buys Saudi Wahhabi gas.

re: #33 joncelli

For God's sake, letting them go bankrupt would be the best thing that could happen to the auto industry in America. The Big Three failed! Let something better take their place!

The three will not fail... maybe only GM will. The new business that Ford and Chrysler get will make them stronger.

Seen it all the time.

re: #162 shakezula

I don't watch baseball if the Yankees are playing.

re: #133 midwestgak

Disregard #133

re: #121 Killgore Trout

It's not socialism, it's called corporatism. Government by & for large corporations. These corporations have close relationships with gov't, getting contracts and paying political donations. Freddie & Fannie are exhibit A. Corporatism combines elements of socialism & capitalism, with a generous dose of racketeering style corruption.

The Decay and Fall of the West

BC: In your essay, “The Roads to Serfdom,” you refer to a famous quote by George Bernard Shaw, who said, “We are all socialists now.” Are we all on the brink of becoming socialists once again? Why do you think, given the oppressive and pernicious nature of this method of governance, it remains politically viable?

Dr. Dalrymple: I think it more likely that there will be an increase in corporatism than in socialism. America will not be socialist, but it might be corporatist (there is always a tendency to this deformation in modern societies). You will find an increase in public spending with an increase in contracts given to businessmen with political contacts or who are politically pliable. Mr. Obama strikes me as a Blair figure rather than, say, a Leninist. This will lead to a swamp of corruption very difficult to eradicate because it will be legalized corruption, which is very hard to eliminate once started. An important thing to look for will be the corruption of statistics; for once they are corrupted, no one can know what is going on in the larger picture, and this gives carte blanche for the looting of the public purse by private interests linked to politicians, all in the name of procuring benefits for the public.

Prophetic words.

re: #155 turn

Shug, I'm taking your word on that. Bailout is a bad idea.

been watching that smug bastard Gettlefinger on the TV all day.

the UAW will never make meaningful concessions and until the Big 3 can reduce the labor costs to make a car, they are doomed.

This is giving a facelift and a boob job to a 93 year old woman with alzheimer's disease and lung cancer

Have to go-Christmas shopping and prepping await!

re: #101 Shr_Nfr

But when does it end? To me it would be like throwing good money after bad. The unions are to blame for the demise of the big three.

Write your congressman and tell them to stop letting these cocksuckers rape America.

re: #147 livefreeor die

But those attitudes are what keep this whole mess going-"Give us what we want or the economy takes a hit." At what point do we set limits on the s--t these guys keep shoveling?

Does it count as racketeering yet?

we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry

WTF?!? It is not Congress' job to address the 'long-term viability' of an industry! Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the industry itself? This sounds to me like a recipe for long-term subsidizing of the entire industry.

re: #108 Honorary Yooper

Honda is in some serious trouble according word on the street. They've pulled out of Formula 1 racing, and are doing major cutbacks in production.

* * *
Sounds like appropriate retrenchment in tough times.
Notice Honda's not asking for a bailout first.

re: #150 Racer X

Someone will come in and buy up their assets and start making cars again. There will always be demand.

who and why? why would anyone want to buy up factories that are geared up for making inefficient, shitty SUVs and trucks? and in the meantime, we get a depression, there won't be very much buying up of anything when there's no demand because nobody has any money.

bailing out the companies is the temporary right thing to do right now, just so long as the unions shelve their greedy pay increases, and the companies agree to radical restructuring.

re: #177 SpaceJesus

and the companies agree to radical restructuring.

According to whose specs? The US government's? What does Nancy Pelosi know about making and selling cars?

re: #176 alegrias

* * *
Sounds like appropriate retrenchment in tough times.
Notice Honda's not asking for a bailout first.

Indeed. There is NO car manufacturer that hasn't see a severe drop in sales over the last year. However, amongst the major manufacturers, Honda's drop was the lowest (32% reduction in sales, compared to 47% if I recall for Ford, and 42% for GM).

re: #177 SpaceJesus

bailing out the companies is the temporary right thing to do right now, just so long as the unions shelve their greedy pay increases, and the companies agree to radical restructuring.

Thats what declaring bankruptcy would do, forcing the unions to get new contracts and restructuring management, which is why they are fighting it tooth and nail.

THIS IS NOT AN AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT! This is a union bailout, plain and simple.

re: #101 Shr_Nfr Hey there. I agree with you to a point - as we have kicked this idea (the idea of the thread) around on the DT for some time, the problem isn't loaning them or giving them $15 Billion, it's that the $15 Billion WON'T SAVE THEM.
Chapter 11 is a dicey proposition (though I do note that it worked for a number of airlines) but the fact is that the UAW, the dealership contracts and, IMO, the top two tiers of management AND the Boards of Directors no longer know how to make a profit building automobiles. They have NO PLAN as to what to do when the $15 Billion runs out - none, nada. A Chapter 11 at the least would enable the UAW, dealership and some supplier contracts to be renegotiated, but more importantly, perhaps, get some kind of management that can figure out how to turn a profit.
And it IS possible - FrogMarch, I believe pointed out that Toyota (IIRC) had the SAME gross sales as GM -give or take a few hundred million bucks, and made a $9 Billion profit; GM managed to lose something like $11 Billion. And that $20 Billion swing between profit and loss isn't attributable all to the UAW; Toyota simply has better management, too.
I wouldn't mind the Taxpayers shoring up GM and Chrysler if need be, but not if there is no end in sight for the Taxpayers to keep on paying to shore them up. They simply HAVE to find a way to make a profit or ultimately, like all businesses (including some airlines) they will have to go out of business.

re: #153 Occasional Reader

Hey, don't think we've forgotten the Maine, there, señor!

See if you catch me buying a bottle of Rioja anytime soon!

/

***
Ja ja ja. Fine! So long as you keep eating your tapas Manchego @ $20/lb, mi amigo!

re: #177 SpaceJesus

bailing out the companies is the temporary right thing to do right now, just so long as the unions shelve their greedy pay increases, and the companies agree to radical restructuring.

That's the catch though, there's absolutely nothing in the historical record to suggest that the unions are willing to do what you describe, and as long as they won't, there's little chance of the radical restructuring you're saying the industry needs.

re: #170 Shug

Now that's funny! ding

Japanese, Korean and German automakers with plants in the US have a cost advantage over domestic manufacturers partly because their workforce is younger and the bulk of it has health care coverage partly subsidized (nationalized) by their home governments.

The US automakers will want to get cost parity with the foreign companies, and getting nationally subsidized health care is one of the ways they'll try to even the playing field without giving up anything on wages. That means we'll pay them more to keep oversupplying demand.

re: #170 Shug

This is giving a facelift and a boob job to a 93 year old woman with alzheimer's disease and lung cancer

HEY!

re: #178 Occasional Reader

According to whose specs? The US government's? What does Nancy Pelosi know about making and selling cars?

Bet she doesn't know much. That doesn't mean we can't put something together which would force the manufacturers to be more economically efficient. That's something we need to explore, then implement.

re: #185 jaunte

Japanese, Korean and German automakers with plants in the US have a cost advantage over domestic manufacturers partly because their workforce is younger and the bulk of it has health care coverage partly subsidized (nationalized) by their home governments.

The US automakers will want to get cost parity with the foreign companies, and getting nationally subsidized health care is one of the ways they'll try to even the playing field without giving up anything on wages. That means we'll pay them more to keep oversupplying demand.

Another key factor that everyone overlooks in this equation: Those factories are more robotic.

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey
LOL! Yeah, but don't forget buzz, the USA started the war of 1812!

re: #183 Yashmak

That's the catch though, there's absolutely nothing in the historical record to suggest that the unions are willing to do what you describe, and as long as they won't, there's little chance of the radical restructuring you're saying the industry needs.

there has to be a way to put pressure on those corrupt bastards to force their hand. people need to speak up and call-out this corrupt rust belt mentality for what it is, from Blagojevich to GM there needs to be some kind of public outcry against this never ending mountain of bullshit.

re: #187 SpaceJesus

Bet she doesn't know much. That doesn't mean we can't put something together which would force the manufacturers to be more economically efficient. That's something we need to explore, then implement.

Sure, why not. If Congress can change the laws of economics they sure as hell change the laws of physics.

re: #188 Thanos

This discussion leads right into Krauthammer's piece on the link upstairs:
"...a labor resurgence, government as benevolent private-sector "partner." The first hint came yesterday, when Obama claimed, "If we want to overcome our economic challenges, we must also finally address our health care challenge..."

bbl, must work some.

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) Well it IS a union bailout, but it's also a management bailout. Remember when those asshats had to come back to D.C. to present business plans to make a profit in the future and they presented...
NOTHING.I'd renegotiate with the Unions, but I'd want new management, too. And especially a non-rubber stamp Board of directors, too.

re: #111 Killian Bundy

/you could buy all the common stock for GM and Ford for ~$5B, Chrysler is privately owned by fat cat hedge fund Cerebus, so I don't even have a [expletive deleted] clue why we're even thinking about bailing them out

Does this ring your cluebell?

KEY EXECUTIVES FOR Cerberus Capital Management, L.P.*

'Round up the usual suspects.'

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thats what declaring bankruptcy would do, forcing the unions to get new contracts and restructuring management, which is why they are fighting it tooth and nail.

THIS IS NOT AN AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT! This is a union bailout, plain and simple.

the unions would have to get new contracts? I didn't know that. But of course there's the economic downside of letting them collapse. It's a tricky question, and it's the unions' damn fault for trying to use this economic crisis as leverage to get more money for themselves. There's no answer but to riot I guess.

just say no.

The only way these jackasses will toe the line and possibly make it is bankruptcy - and the whole business plan, union concessions, and reorganization that comes with it. Otherwise, handing them money, with some incompetent oversight committee at the helm, the money might as well be lit on fire.

$15b buys a lot of shit. I'd rather spend the money on shit - honest to goodness flaming shit - than bailing out a piss poor business without a hope of survival, no plan whatsoever, that's PWND by crooked unions, to boot.

re: #190 SpaceJesus

there has to be a way to put pressure on those corrupt bastards to force their hand. people need to speak up and call-out this corrupt rust belt mentality for what it is, from Blagojevich to GM there needs to be some kind of public outcry against this never ending mountain of bullshit.

Keep coming. Your almost there.

Banks first!

From what I see it seems GWB isn't content with 30% approval, he wants to find the bottom.

re: #199 Racer X

Keep coming. Your almost there.

kill them. kill them all? sell the rust belt back to the indians or canada?

re: #202 SpaceJesus

kill them. kill them all? sell the rust belt back to the indians or canada?

Whoa! Slow down - you just flew right by.

NOT bailing them out will send a message. America will not crumble up and die just because the big three are forced to restructure or sell or merge.

Like someone said above - this is a union bailout.

re: #166 Buck

Frankly, I would rather Chrysler failed than GM. Every now and then GM makes a decent car, but I can't think of anything that Chrysler has made in the last 20 years that's worth a damn.

(What happened to the negotiations for GM to buy Chrysler? If GM could get ahold of Chrysler's cash they'd have a fighting chance.)

re: #172 turn

If you do not throw the money at them and they all go bust at once, you will pay much more than a 16 bn loan. It has been starting to end for a while now. The VEBA is in place that takes a load off the domestics. Ford has been doing what it should have done long ago and that is to have a single unified company world-wide. A Focus made for Europe is the same as the Focus made for the US. Just like Honda does with its Civic. And the Focus gets better mileage than the Camery in either straight gasoline or hybrid modes. My question is when does it all end with the government regulations? The government has forced these guys to spend $85 bn to meet the bogus CAFE standards. CA is trying to impose its very own flavor of emission standard on them. If they did not have to spend all that money to appease the egos of the greens, they would not be in as deep a mess as they are now.

Certainly some things have to be done to tighten up the ship. Gm has too many badges and dealers. Ford has too many dealers. Chrysler has problems all over with it coming in dead last in quality, etc. The UAW has to give on things like the job bank and some other items. But It would be better to let them die slowly and have a super-senior claim if they enter bk than throw them in now and hope for the best. We have enough trouble with guys like Farney Bank screwing the puppy with the mortgage mess to throw yet one more problem on the fire.

I do not own any GM debt or stock.

I thought the stock market was supposed to tank? I think it was down a little, but no landslide dive! By the way, I think the fix is in for the big three and uaw. I'll never buy from them again and I bet there are many more like me.

Shouldn't the long term viability be determined before more money is thrown down the drain? Baaad move.

Full disclosure: I bought 1K shares of F @ $2/share.

Why? Because Ford has more assets than debt. It is, to my knowledge, the only US automaker so situated.

It is important that the US have a domestic auto manufacturer. Come the emergency and we will need a domestic source of trucks, tanks, planes, rockets, guns, food, etc.

If we buy everydamnthing from foreigners, they own us.

re: #159 Dirk Diggler

The U.S.S. Maine was an inside job!

I'd forgotten that.

re: #113 turn

I commend you on your vocabulary, much more diverse than Blago :.)

Thank you kindly, I pride myself on my vocabulary and my colorful way of expressing myself! :-) (I admit that was just a little over-the-top from my usual jocular self, but what the unions have done to this country pi$$es me off to no end and i would gladly stand in line for weeks just to eliminate some body waste on their graves...grrr...)

IIRC, Toyota execs (and I am assuming other Japanese car makers) salaries max out at 7 times what the lowest wage earner gets. I know this was the case in the '80's & '90's, not sure if it is still true, but it would have had to increased exponentially to equal the big 3.

Bring back AMC! I want a Pacer with a Wankel rotary! (Like they were supposed to have.) :D :D :D

Great. Dubya has now cinched "worst president ever" (named George Bush) in my mind with this action. You're worse than your dad, and that's saying something.

re: #28 livefreeor die

You know, I have stood by Bush and defended him for 8 years but this is the last straw.

Welcome! I've been out here for a couple of years now. I had a real inside view of his crappy policies toward the military, which was what turned me off back in late 2004...the Senate Armed Services Committee was up in arms about the DOD refusal to fully fund MRAP and other uparmored vehicles for our Iraq troops...instead the Bush admin pushed and signed all kinds of ridiculous domestic porkfests

Around this same time Rumsfeld made his nasty "you go to war with the army you have" answer to a soldier in Iraq...asshole, you had 3 years to fix Clinton's army, and you did nothing.

But most Bush defenders attacked the soldier, said he was a democrat plant, etc.

Sorry, but when Joe Biden supports the troops and their needs in battle more than the GOP president and secdef, Houston, we have a serious problem.

re: #210 Clutch

Bring back AMC! I want a Pacer with a Wankel rotary! (Like they were supposed to have.) :D :D :D

I loved the Wankel rotary. I bought new a Mazda RX3SP way back in '78. Little thing would rev to 10K and ran like stink (for the day, slow for now).

Drove it for close to 300K miles without any engine work, then sold it to a collector for $500 less than I'd paid for it.

I haven't read all the comments so someone may have already pointed this out. Anyway, the scumbags at the UAW refused to cut a deal that would've lowered their wages and benefits under a contract that runs until 2011. I say "screw 'em" Let the companies go into Chapter 11 and get rid of these deadbeats who are lollygaggin around on assembly the line and making $71 an hour and who it would take an act of congress to fire.

re: #212 funky chicken

All due respect (I enlisted under Bush 1, declined to re-up under Clinton), Bush 2 really only had about 8 months to fix Clinton's military (after 9/11 the die was cast). With no Congressional support for increasing military spending.
Clinton gave us a "Peace dividend" without waiting for the Peace.

re: #215 Lincolntf

sorry, but after the 2002 elections, he had a GOP congress...he could have led them and could easily have convinced the American people that the military needed stuff. people were in "support the troops" mode big time

cronyism and "compassion" were more important to him

UAW/Automakers - That's a pretty nice economy you got there... be a shame of anything happened to it because you won't keep paying your dues to us...

Hell Yes!

First, I must disclose that I and many family members have a good part of our livelihoods tied to auto and manufacturing, I am biased. Let us also assume for the record that the big unions and bad management greatly contributed to this fabulous cluster-copulation.

Having said all that, here are the reasons the auto bailout is good for America:

The US is already in recession. Capitalism is all well and good but the big three's going under will cause 3 million families to go under and make it much much worse. The auto business is 10% + of the US economy. The people affected will have less, spend less and cost the government money for food stamps and other programs the law currently requires to be given to them, this instead of paying taxes, to say nothing of whatever one million more mortgage defaults will have on everyone else.

Senators Shelby, McConnell and Corker should consider that, if the economy continues to contract, no one will buy cars built in their states either and that if the Big 3 go under, they may take most parts suppliers with them and the transplant companies may not be able to source all the parts they need.

Economies work like this- when people have confidence, people buy things and it expands, when they have no confidence, things contract and the economy contracts. People would be very wise to remember that turning economies around is hard to do. The best way to do a turnaround is to cut taxes and government spending. Armed with the latest ideas from John Maynard Keynes, Democrats intend to try spending their way out, this won't work but, if it succeeds is restoring confidence it can get people buying again. Keeping interest rates low also helps. Not raising taxes too much is better than drastically raising taxes.

The last time the US loaned to auto business, the US actually made money on the deal; unlike the banks, there is a business case for a restructured Big 3 to say nothing of the national security implications of no longer having any US owned heavy manufacturing capacity in time of war. In addition, the Chevy Volt should be considered by everyone on this blog as a strategic weapon against radical Islamists funding. Due in less than two years, the Volt can go 40 miles without a drop of gas, if alternative and nuclear energy expands all of us will benefit from energy independence and a cleaner environment.

Conclusion: letting the Big 3 go under is self destructive and President Bush should use TARP funds to save them.

UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said at a press conference, declaring "the auto industry around the world is in peril."

Then why don't I see Nissan, Toyota, and Honda asking Uncle Sam for money?

re: #195 razorbacker

Why it's...it's!...DAN QUAYLE!

re: #190 SpaceJesus

there has to be a way to put pressure on those corrupt bastards to force their hand. people need to speak up and call-out this corrupt rust belt mentality for what it is, from Blagojevich to GM there needs to be some kind of public outcry against this never ending mountain of bullshit.

re: #199 Racer X

Keep coming. Your almost there.

The Greeks have a word for it.

re: #216 funky chicken

I really don't think President Bush wanted more U.S. soldiers to die in order to satisfy some sort of compulsion to compassion.
He has not been a perfect President or CINC, but he is not a dictator or a magician, either. He cannot simply will a state of readiness into being. The previous Administration did will a lower level of preparedness into being, however.

Hopefully, Obama will have forgotten all about his various proclamations that he'll reduce our defense capabilities by the time he gets to the Oval Office. Both the Bush and Clinton Administrations will look like "the good old days" if he meant half of what he said.

Management needs fixing, but the UAW must go. The UAW is the cancer.
(not the workers- the Union system)

The union business model is not viable in a free-market system.

(oh wait - the democrats are salivating over the prospect of a non-free-market system)

re: #9 VegasRick

Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."

I hate hairy red, I really do.

WE ALL HATE HARRY REID.

GWB, the compassionate, will cave - he seems to be determined to beat out Carter for last place. This too shall pass, GM will be history and Cerebus owners won't even say thanks for us making them whole while the dump Chrysler.

Time to go look for efficiently, American made trucks from foreign owners who didn't steal my tax money - better built and they will probably be here in three years.

I'll consider buying an American car when they dump the UAW.

Behold: The manipulation of the left.

Chapter 11 is the right road for US carmakers

The White House stepped into the breach early Friday, expressing support for Treasury to use TARP funds to bailout the U.S. automakers.

“Because Congress failed to act, we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry,” said Treasury spokeswoman Brookly McLaughlin.

equals=

"Because Congress didn't give us the answer we wanted - we will screw over the us tax payer anyway. We want to reward bad business practices."

This is pathetic. The Bush Administration is crawling towards the finish line on its hands and knees.

re: #101 Shr_Nfr

Even if there's a bailout, you still need bankruptcy to protect the taxpayers by priming the priorities of the senior lenders. If the US government gives them post-petition financing based upon priming the senior lenders, at least the taxpayer dollars are protected in a liquidation.

We as consumers can and should fight back.

You know, where is it etched in granite that we here in the United States are never to suffer or feel pain, economic or otherwise? A cursory glance at American history shows that bad times come and go, almost as naturally as the tides. All this shrieking and hand wringing makes me want to vomit. As Al Swearingen put it, " Life ends when you're dead; until then, you've got more punishment coming. Stand it like a man, and give some back."

We bailed Chrysler out once already!

Remember Proxmire, and the Golden Fleece and the Lockheed bailout.

What did Iaccoca do with _that_ bailout.

How many times we go to do that?

I would take issue with the cutting the CEO pay. You might cut it to zero, so what? GM has to pony up 2.2 billion for laid off workers to recieve 90% of their pay. So if they make 100 million, you don't even make a real dent in 2.2 billion for people who aren't even working. What other job can you get laid off from and paid for several years? The union is the issue. No one can afford to pay for stuff like that.

There is no use in yelling about the bailout. Bush and his DIMO comrades are going to do exactly what they want and the rest of us be damned.

They fat cats in Wash will CONTINUE to do as they please because they keep getting VOTED back into office. The sad thing is that if Bush was not term limited he could count on being RE ELECTED also.

I don't think there has ever been a group of people that are less infomed and more oblivious to their dangerous situation than the American public. Better lace up your sneakers people, it is going to be a VERY ROUGH 4 years.

The UAW is an economic terrorist organization. If they get bailed out now, they will be in the same boat sometime in the future because their rapaciousness knows no bounds. The organization needs to be dissolved. The UAW members may then have to sell their cottages or motorized toys, but so what?

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

Once again the American public is cozened by the beltway politicos to benefit the special interests that are the real electorate.

Wow! Take away the union involvement, and even the lefties would be against the big bucks bonanza.

Wait! the union factor is the reason the bailout is "needed".

Son of a bitch. I used to be a little sympathetic to this guy, but I'm getting ready to put a "1-29-09" bumper sticker on my car!

22 Pounds of Fat: UAW's Work Rules Weighing Down Industry

Ever wondered what a UAW contract looks like? Here is all 22 pounds of it (in this case, Ford’s 2,215 page 2007 master contract...

I’ll tell you this much, those 2,215 pages don’t include much regarding efficiency and competitiveness. What you’ll find are hundreds of rules, regulations, and letters of understanding that have hamstrung the auto companies for years.

Save the American Auto Industry. No more UAW.

Unions are no different than pay to play. Is it any wonder the democrat party is in bed with he unions?

U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records

Recent Votes

In my home-state, Ford had a presence with a few factories. I remember Ford workers we knew who were" laid-off." They loved it because they'd receive something like close to 80 percent of their regular salary!...then they'd find some work 'under-the-table' until the lay-offs were over. My family always had their own businesses so when there wasn't work or customers, there wasn't income. Basic math, really. Not even Ford could keep that up and they've closed so many factories. I'm not sure they've figured out why, though...

Does anyone in our government understand how a business is supposed to work?

TARP funds cannot be used for auto companies. The law, as written when the bailout happened, does not allow for this. Currently, it would be illegal to use TARP funds to bail out the big 3.

TARP funds can only be used for financial institutions as described in the bail out law. GMAC tried to become one unsuccessfully.

FINANCIAL INSTITUTION- The term ‘financial institution’ means any institution, including, but not limited to, any bank, savings association, credit union, security broker or dealer, or insurance company, established and regulated under the laws of the United States or any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the District of Columbia, Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, American Samoa, or the United States Virgin Islands, and having significant operations in the United States, but excluding any central bank of, or institution owned by, a foreign government.

"GM said in a statement it was "deeply disappointed" that the bipartisan agreement faltered."
Hmm, I thought we were supposed to be against corporate goodies ... what did we call that? ... 'corporate welfare'. Well, I was . . . and still am!