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Totten: The (Really) Moderate Muslims of Kosovo

World | Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 9:39:01 pm PST

An interesting piece on The (Really) Moderate Muslims of Kosovo by Michael Totten in the new City Journal.

Kosovo’s brand of Islam may be the most liberal in the world. I saw no more women there wearing conservative Islamic clothing—one or two per day at most—than I’ve seen in Manhattan. There is no gender apartheid even in Kosovo’s villages. Alcohol flows freely in restaurants, cafés, and bars, where you’ll see as many young women in sexy outfits as you’d find in any Western European country. Aside from the minarets on the skyline, there is no visible evidence that Kosovo is a Muslim-majority country at all.

“Here people are Muslims, but they think like Europeans,” says Xhabir Hamiti, a professor in the Islamic studies department at the University of Pristina in Kosovo’s capital. “Muslims here identify themselves as Muslim Lite,” an American police officer tells me. As Afrim Kostrati, a young bartender, puts it: “We are Muslims, but not really.” And Luan Berisha, an entrepreneur, agrees: “We were never practicing Muslims like they are in the Middle East. . . . First of all, we are Albanians. Religion comes second.”

Religion in Kosovo is a private matter, not a public one. “We never talk about it,” Berisha says. “I just found out, one year ago, that a very good friend of mine is Catholic, and we have been friends for the last ten years.” One Muslim woman tells me how startled she was when she attended a conference in Britain about young people who change the world. “I was shocked to find that the representative of the U.S.A. was a covered lady, originally from Iraq,” she says. “And the representative from Canada was another, originally from Afghanistan.” She herself was wearing shorts.

The reason for Kosovo’s relaxed attitude toward religion lies in its history. Albanians, including those in Kosovo, are the descendants of ancient pagan Greeks and Illyrians; more recently, they were Christian before the majority converted to Islam under Turkish Ottoman rule. Their religion may be Eastern, but Albanians have been culturally European for all of recorded history. “The Greeks hardly regard them as Christians, or the Turks as Moslems, and in fact they are a mixture of both, and sometimes neither,” Lord Byron wrote of them almost 200 years ago. “We Albanians,” writes Catholic priest Dom Lush Gjergji, “descendants of the Illyrians, are Christians from the time of the Apostles. . . . Without Christianity there would be no Albanian people, language, culture, or traditions . . . Albanians consider Christianity their patrimony, their spiritual and cultural inheritance.”

Kosovar Muslims talk the same way. In fact, the feeling is reflected in the Albanian national flag, which flies all over Kosovo, despite minimal support for a “greater Albania.” Its black double-headed eagle is the seal of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg, who led the resistance against the Ottoman Empire in the fifteenth century. This national hero of a Muslim-majority country was Catholic.

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144 comments

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1 Cognito  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:40:57pm

Sounds like an ideal model, to me.

2 Cognito  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:42:11pm

So.

3 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:42:46pm
“We are Muslims, but not really.”

That explains it all.

4 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:43:12pm

That's unpossible!
/The entire fucking counter-jihad movement.

5 davinvalkri  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:43:52pm

Would that their religious brethren could be like them!
How come only the most radical or Israel-obsessed Muslims get play in politics and the media? Are these Kosovites not "true Muslims"?

6 JCM  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:44:43pm

There may be hope for a Islamic Reformation.

7 Seax  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:46:32pm

Well that's blown it.
They're for it now...they have raised their flag.

8 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:46:48pm

re: #3 solomonpanting
The key is here.....

Their religion may be Eastern, but Albanians have been culturally European for all of recorded history.

"Culturally European" means that they are essentially secularists. I know that's a dirty word around here but Western Christians and Jews are secularists as well. Even if they don't admit it.

9 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:47:38pm

re: #6 JCM

There may be hope for a Islamic Reformation.

Is so, it's what Mr. Totten is describing in Kosovo.

10 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:48:04pm

re: #6 JCM

There is hope and reformed Islam will come from the West. It may even supplant the Saudi version eventually.

11 JCM  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:51:22pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

Is so, it's what Mr. Totten is describing in Kosovo.

His description is certainly positive.

12 davinvalkri  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:51:51pm

re: #5 davinvalkri

Wait--why the **** did I say "Kosovites?" Albanians is probably closer to the truth...

13 JCM  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:52:27pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

There is hope and reformed Islam will come from the West. It may even supplant the Saudi version eventually.

Kosovo is taking Islam but looking West (Europe), long term it's the only alternative, other than continual war.

14 pat  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:53:12pm

Seems only yesterday I read about the torture and rape of Christian teenagers.
But we will be more familiar with that when the Saudi masters who paid for this are rewarded with fanatical.

15 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:54:13pm

I'm sure this will be cross posted at Jihad Watch /

16 Syrah  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:55:42pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

There is hope and reformed Islam will come from the West. It may even supplant the Saudi version eventually.

That will depend on which is more evangelistic than the other.

17 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:56:00pm

re: #11 JCM

His description is certainly positive.

And will be either ignored or outright rejected by.... certain elements.

18 JCM  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:56:58pm

re: #17 Sharmuta

And will be either ignored or outright rejected by.... certain elements.

Very true also.
Those elements will also try to break down what is happening, violently.

19 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:57:01pm

Sing it with me 80's music fans!

"Don't turn around, oh, ow, ow!
The Kosovar's in town, oh, ow, ow!"

20 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:57:28pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

The key is here.....

"Culturally European" means that they are essentially secularists. I know that's a dirty word around here but Western Christians and Jews are secularists as well. Even if they don't admit it.


Culture does play a major role, but being secularist is also a key. If Karridine is here, I wonder what thoughts he has on the influences of cultural and secularism on Thais.

21 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:58:33pm

re: #13 JCM

This is why Folks like Spencer and Geert Wilders piss me off so much. Kosovo (and Albania) is exactly what we want Islam to be: modern, peaceful, tolerant, and secular. But the Ethnic nationalists who've taken over the counter-Jihad movement would rather the Kosovars be wiped out of existence. If Kosovo starts being a problem I'll gladly eat crow but for right now Denmark, London, Paris, and Madrid each produce more Jihadis than Kosovo and Albania combined. That's a fact.

22 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:59:37pm

Michael Totten is a precious gift. Just like Glenn Reynolds, Ed Morrissey, Wretchard, Bill Whittle, and Allahpundit. And Charles.

23 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 9:59:48pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Speak it!

24 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:02:06pm

re: #20 solomonpanting

I wonder what thoughts he has on the influences of cultural and secularism on Thais.


I've become convinced that regional versions of Islam (Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, etc) have historically proven themselves to be peaceful and tolerant. The problem comes with "Arabized" Islam exported from Saudi funded mosques in recent years.

25 JCM  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:02:20pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

This is why Folks like Spencer and Geert Wilders piss me off so much. Kosovo (and Albania) is exactly what we want Islam to be: modern, peaceful, tolerant, and secular. But the Ethnic nationalists who've taken over the counter-Jihad movement would rather the Kosovars be wiped out of existence. If Kosovo starts being a problem I'll gladly eat crow but for right now Denmark, London, Paris, and Madrid each produce more Jihadis than Kosovo and Albania combined. That's a fact.

'zactly.

We need to encourage this, not marginalize ti.

26 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:03:59pm

re: #25 JCM

We need to encourage this, not marginalize ti.


Just wait. Spencer will write a hit piece about Totten for defending Kosovo. He's done it before.

27 J.S.  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:05:05pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I think it's in the ideological interests of both the Geert Wilders and the bin Laden's to see Islamic radicalism flourish...(both groups share a common interest in seeing Islamist extremism expanded -- and, their survival/livelihood, etc, in a sense, depends upon it.)

28 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:05:59pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Just wait. Spencer will write a hit piece about Totten for defending Kosovo. He's done it before.

Most likely related to his involvement with Serbian nationalists.

29 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:08:20pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Just wait. Spencer will write a hit piece about Totten for defending Kosovo. He's done it before.

And calls that Mr. Totten is a "dhimmi" will probably grow.

30 Thanos  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:10:16pm

I've got to get some sleeps, but the most bothersome thing about the counter jihad movement is that they keep pimping the same Neo-Takfirist swill that Ayman Al Zawahiri does in different words.

"There's no such thing as a moderate muslim, if you are moderate you aren't a true muslim... etc."

Do they really think that's helpful?

31 J.S.  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:11:54pm

re: #30 Thanos

Exactly...(I can't tell the difference...)

32 Throbert McGee  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:12:17pm

The description of Kosovo women reminds me of Turkey -- or at least, the accepted standard in large Turkish cities like Ankara and Izmir, when my family lived there in the early '80s.

Although I admit I can't remember Turkish women actually wearing shorts, even in the cities -- but certainly they wore knee-length skirts and went bare-armed in the summer, and no educated middle-class Turkish woman wore even a minimal hijab -- i.e., a scarf over the hair, neck, and shoulders. (As I understand Turkish government policy on hijab, for decades it was permitted for rural villagers, but essentially banned for urban Turkish women with any sort of upwardly-mobile aspirations.)

I'm mentioning this because in more recent years, of course, there has been concern that the taboo against hijab (and other signifiers of Islamist theocracy) has weakened among educated urban Turks.

33 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:16:29pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

And calls that Mr. Totten is a "dhimmi" will probably grow.

Probably but history will probably side with Totten. So far I've seen no reports of planning, logistics or training of Jihadis in Kosovo or Albania. I've seen more reports of Brits and Dutch turning up in Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya but no ethnic Albanians/Kosovars. The situation could change but I seriously doubt it.

34 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:17:57pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

The man has books to sell, after all. I'm starting to think his motivation is entirely financial. He's like an aging rock star who made good music at one time but who tours relentlessly singing the 'oldies'.

35 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:18:17pm

As I recall, President Bush received a tremendous welcome when he visited Albania last year.

36 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:18:58pm

Um, I was not under the impression that there was all that much to like in Albania or Kosovo, other than the fact that they are not worse.

37 realwest  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:21:23pm

As interesting as this thread will be, I have to go to bed now. I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

IF I could, however, as ALL OF YOU a favor - if you see pingjockey out here tomorrow, please ask him to e-mail me - my nic here is in blue.
Thank you all very much.

Good night, all.

38 itellu3times  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:21:49pm

Thirty years ago, weren't the Muslims in Lebanon pretty secular and modern? Or, thirty years ago, large parts of the Iranian population? Or even today, large parts of the Turkish population? Or maybe some reasonable part of the Egyptian population? Or even Chechnya?

Islam is always held back by their worst, in this, they are very different from the west.

39 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:23:31pm

I'm tapping out before I start trouble.
/namaste, Y'all

40 Ron Bacardi  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:24:42pm

A model to help defeat the fundamentalists.

41 Soona'  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:27:10pm

Must take a nap. Have a very early flight.

42 Semi Cartman  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:30:45pm

When the shooting war was going on there, I recall a news photo of a Saudi irregular with a head in his hand. The head's name was Blago Blagojevich. Thats why I remember it. He and his pals also had a box filled with Serb heads that they were subjecting to various indignities for the camera. Why were those guys there, and what happened to them?

43 Kenneth  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:31:00pm

John Belushi was of Albanian decent, so you've got to give them credit for that.

44 Bobibutu  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:31:58pm

re: #38 itellu3times

Thirty years ago, weren't the Muslims in Lebanon pretty secular and modern? Or, thirty years ago, large parts of the Iranian population? Or even today, large parts of the Turkish population? Or maybe some reasonable part of the Egyptian population? Or even Chechnya?

Islam is always held back by their worst, in this, they are very different from the west.

Yes ... And even Malaysia and Indonesia. A few nut cakes here and there. And the worst were a few Imams and their henchmen. That was 30-40 years ago.

45 Kenneth  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:33:19pm

re: #42 Semi Cartman

Al Qaeda sent a number of jihadis to Bosnia & Kosovo. Some have since moved on to Chechnya, Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iraq.

46 Catttt  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:36:46pm

Fascinating. IMHO, Michael Totten is a treasure. I've learned more about the world as it is today from him than from all of the MSM put together.

Having said that - keep in mind that Mr. Totten has a TIP JAR on his Web site - scroll down, it's on the right, and you can use PayPal. Tomorrow's payday, right? :D

That's it for me. SLEEPY. G'night.

47 LynnfromNZ  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:37:31pm

Wow. I was through Istnabul a while back and thought that was moderate. maybe those were just the german tourists i saw, but I thoughthte Turks were pretty relaxed about the whole islam deal.

48 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 10:49:19pm

Mother Theresa was Albanian, too...which would, I guess, count as a mark against Albanians as far as Christopher Hitchens is concerned.

Other famous Albanians include Regis Philbin, Eliza Dushku, and John Cena.

49 Semi Cartman  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:03:07pm

I just had an excellent post and self-nuked it. Better turn in.

50 BlueCanuck  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:03:11pm

re: #47 LynnfromNZ

Well they were. They are only starting to become more fundemental recently, in the past ten years. Probably due to the oil ticks funding more mosques and madarasses in Turkey. The Kamalists are still fighting but they are having a rough time of it.

51 rawmuse  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:08:31pm

Interesting article. One wonders what percentage of the Muslims would be susceptible to radicalization by some fire breathing imams from Saudi Arabia.

52 Silvergirl  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:18:00pm

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the author of Infidel, would be for it. I know she is an atheist now, but she does fought for what she calls enlightened Islam.

53 Fearless Fred  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:18:19pm

re: #51 rawmuse

Interesting article. One wonders what percentage of the Muslims would be susceptible to radicalization by some fire breathing imams from Saudi Arabia.

" . . . First of all, we are Albanians. Religion comes second.”
They aren't really Muslim. Hmm, like Jews by blood, but not observant.

54 Silvergirl  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:18:37pm

*fight, she does fight.

55 stevieray  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:20:09pm

re: #50 BlueCanuck

Well they were. They are only starting to become more fundemental recently, in the past ten years. Probably due to the oil ticks funding more mosques and madarasses in Turkey. The Kamalists are still fighting but they are having a rough time of it.

Actually, according to Mark Steyn, the reason Turkey is heading in the wrong direction is demographics. The Kamalists are generally from the European urban dwelling half of Turkey, and they have been reproducing at lower levels than the more fundamentalist Turks from the hinterlands.

56 gmsc  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:20:12pm

Today is December 15th, so . . .

Helen Slater turns 43
Don Johnson turns 59
Melanie Chartoff turns 60
Thaao Penghlis (You know him as either Count Tony DiMera on Days of Our Lives, or as Nicholas Black from the '80s revival of Mission: Impossible) turns 63
Tim Conway turns 75
Freeman Dyson turns 85
Noted Brazilian architect Oscar Niemeyer turns 101 today!

38 years ago today, the 4th version of the Illinois State Constitution was adopted (Apparently the first 3 weren't corrupt enough for Illinois ;).
47 years ago today, Adolph Eichmann was sentenced to death for his war crimes.
69 years ago today, Gone With The Wind premiered at Loew's Grand Theater in Atlanta, GA.
217 years ago today, Virginia ratified the Bill of Rights, officially making the Bill of Rights law.

Also, the electoral college meets today to vote on the President and Vice President. (U.S. Constitution Bill of Rights: December 15, 1791 - December 15, 2008?)

57 Wookieelips  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:22:31pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Probably but history will probably side with Totten. So far I've seen no reports of planning, logistics or training of Jihadis in Kosovo or Albania. I've seen more reports of Brits and Dutch turning up in Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya but no ethnic Albanians/Kosovars. The situation could change but I seriously doubt it.


This is one reason I believe culture is a much stronger influence on the call to jihad than islam itself.
Though the commands are there in the koran, secular cultures seem to ignore it, or just leave it in the context of the 7th century (where it belongs).

If the rest of the muslim world was like Kosovo, I'm sure we would be here discussing the merits of different potting soil or something, not jihad and war.

58 Silvergirl  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:29:12pm

re: #56 gmsc

Today is December 15th, so . . .

Helen Slater turns 43
Don Johnson turns 59
Melanie Chartoff turns 60
Thaao Penghlis (You know him as either Count Tony DiMera on Days of Our Lives, or as Nicholas Black from the '80s revival of Mission: Impossible) turns 63
Tim Conway turns 75
Freeman Dyson turns 85
Noted Brazilian architect Oscar Niemeyer turns 101 today!

38 years ago today, the 4th version of the Illinois State Constitution was adopted (Apparently the first 3 weren't corrupt enough for Illinois ;).
47 years ago today, Adolph Eichmann was sentenced to death for his war crimes.
69 years ago today, Gone With The Wind premiered at Loew's Grand Theater in Atlanta, GA.
217 years ago today, Virginia ratified the Bill of Rights, officially making the Bill of Rights law.

Also, the electoral college meets today to vote on the President and Vice President. (U.S. Constitution Bill of Rights: December 15, 1791 - December 15, 2008?)

What a year for film the year GWTW came out. Also The Wizard of Oz in its glorious black and white to color. Plus Of Mice and Men AND Mr. Smith Goes to Washington!

59 stevieray  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:34:21pm

re: #57 Wookieelips

This is one reason I believe culture is a much stronger influence on the call to jihad than islam itself.
Though the commands are there in the koran, secular cultures seem to ignore it, or just leave it in the context of the 7th century (where it belongs).

If the rest of the muslim world was like Kosovo, I'm sure we would be here discussing the merits of different potting soil or something, not jihad and war.

The Kosovars have a distinct advantage over much of the Islamic world -- their pre-existent culture still exists. In much of the Islamic world, especially the original conquered areas, Islam is the culture -- they have little or nothing else to fall back on... distant memories of times past, traces of old customs disconnected from their original meanings, etc... but not a full-fledged functional alternative culture to serve as a counterbalance to their current Islamic ways.

60 Fearless Fred  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:38:05pm

re: #56 gmsc

Today in Dead History (Dec 15) ~~~
Concerts Played on Dec 15

1971 (Wed) Hill Auditorium, Ann Arbor, MI
Bertha, Bobby McGee, Mr. Charlie, China> Rider, BIODTL, Hurts Me Too, Cumberland, Jack Straw, You Win Again, Run Rudolph, Playin', BE Women, Mexicali, Big RR, Brokedown, El Paso, Casey Jones

1972 (Fri) Arena, Long Beach, CA
B. T. Wind Box Of Rain Greatest Jack Straw Playin
He's Gone Truckin Other One Dark Star Morning Dew Johnny B. Goode

1978 (Fri) Boutwell Auditorium, Birmingham, AL
Set 1:Promised Shakedown Street Minglewood FOTD El Paso From the Heart Of Me B. E. Women Cassidy Deal
Set 2:Miracle Bertha Good Lovin Roses Terrapin Playin Drumz Stella Blue Truckin Playin U. S. Blues

1986 (Mon) Oakland-Alemeda County Coliseum, Oakland, CA
Set 1:Touch, C. C. Rider, Push, BIODTL> Greatest, Loser,Cassidy, Althea, Esau, Candyman, Let It Grow
Set 2:Iko Iko, L. L. Rain, Black Muddy River, Playin> Terrapin> Drumz> Truckin> Wharf Rat> Playin> Good Lovin Johnny B. Goode
*(first "Push" - first "Black Muddy River")*

1994 (Thu) Sports Arena, Los Angeles, CA
Set 1:Shakedown, Wang Dang Doodle, Lazy River Road, Me & My Uncle@> Mexicali@, Row Jimmy, Promised
Set 2:Foolish Heart, Way To Go, Corinna> Uncle John> Jam> Drumz>Last Time> Morning Dew Liberty
*(Bob Weir played acoustic guitar during "Space" - @ Bobby on acoustic guitar)*

61 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:38:20pm
A big reason for Kosovars’ antipathy to radical Islamism is, in a word, America, which has been the political North Star for Albanians inside and outside Kosovo ever since NATO’s intervention in 1999. In 2004, a Gallup survey measured popular opinion of U.S. foreign policy around the world. Only ten countries rated American foreign policy favorably, and among those, Kosovo scored highest, registering 88 percent approval. When one ethnic Albanian I met happened to make the uncontroversial statement that Kosovo was a European country, another broke in. “We aren’t European,” she corrected. “We’re American.”

This is a wonderful piece Mr. Totten has written, and I hope everyone will read the whole thing.

62 Fearless Fred  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:45:13pm

re: #61 Sharmuta

This is a wonderful piece Mr. Totten has written, and I hope everyone will read the whole thing.

I agree. It's actually amazing. Beautiful.

63 Fearless Fred  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:46:51pm

re: #56 gmsc

Who are those people?

64 Wookieelips  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:53:24pm

re: #59 stevieray

The Kosovars have a distinct advantage over much of the Islamic world -- their pre-existent culture still exists. In much of the Islamic world, especially the original conquered areas, Islam is the culture -- they have little or nothing else to fall back on... distant memories of times past, traces of old customs disconnected from their original meanings, etc... but not a full-fledged functional alternative culture to serve as a counterbalance to their current Islamic ways.


Yeah, you make a good point.

But I still think the BS tribal cultural influence makes jihad and other atrocities seem so much more appealing than it would in a european society. Unfortunately.

65 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 14, 2008 11:55:41pm

re: #61 Sharmuta

This is a wonderful piece Mr. Totten has written, and I hope everyone will read the whole thing.

It was delicious, delightful, and delectable. Like everything else Michael writes. And I read it all.

Every now and then I comment there. And he likes my comments enough to have told me once, on one of the threads, that I'll never be banned from there.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:25:10am

re: #5 davinvalkri

Would that their religious brethren could be like them!
How come only the most radical or Israel-obsessed Muslims get play in politics and the media? Are these Kosovites not "true Muslims"?

Because getting up in the morning and NOT doing anything dramatic or homicidal tends not to attract the media.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:29:01am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

"Culturally European" means that they are essentially secularists. I know that's a dirty word around here but Western Christians and Jews are secularists as well. Even if they don't admit it.

If we go by the Free Dictionary's #2 definition, "The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education." I will happily cop to being a secularist.

68 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:30:57am

re: #59 stevieray

The Kosovars have a distinct advantage over much of the Islamic world -- their pre-existent culture still exists. In much of the Islamic world, especially the original conquered areas, Islam is the culture -- they have little or nothing else to fall back on... distant memories of times past, traces of old customs disconnected from their original meanings, etc... but not a full-fledged functional alternative culture to serve as a counterbalance to their current Islamic ways.

In a few parts of the Islamic world, Islam represents an improvement over what came before. The feudal societies of back-valley pre-islamic Pakistan, for instance, offered not even the dignity of hope of paradise to its lower classes. They were just draft animals for the master class.

There has to be some human reason why Islam retains adherents, and caste systems can be so bad that anything is better.

69 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:37:01am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

If we go by the Free Dictionary's #2 definition, "The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education." I will happily cop to being a secularist.

As a more or less secularist, I must disagree. Devout believers have their own preferences for how moral questions shall be treated. As citizens and voters, they may properly try to get their preferences put into effect at the ballot box.

If we want our own preferences to prevail, the road to victory ought not to lie in delegitimizing the very thought of allowing religious precepts to guide preferences on questions of law. It ought to lie in having more votes.

70 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:49:44am

I somewhat disagree that there is nearly zero influence of Jihadists in Kosovo. For example, there were Mujaheddin fighting in Bosnian "Liberation-Brigades" - and most of them did not speak Serbo-Croatian, but were Albanian Mercenaries from Kosovo. Later, the KLA was heavily supported from Saudi-Arabia. In 1995, Osama bin Laden was an official guest to Albanian President Sali Berisha and also at this meeting were KLA-leaders Ramus Haradinaj (former prime-minister of Kosovo) and Hasim Taci (current prime minister of Kosovo). At this meeting, the chief of the albanian Secret-Police, Bashkim Gazideda, was nominated into a group of al-Qaeda-leaders who should coordinate activities at the Balkan. One of the advisers of KLA-Forces was Muhammad al-Zawahiri, brother of Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Although Kosovo is clearly far from being an islamist-state, Totten's article is a little bit too optimistic, I think.

71 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:56:53am

re: #70 gegenkritik

I somewhat disagree that there is nearly zero influence of Jihadists in Kosovo. For example, there were Mujaheddin fighting in Bosnian "Liberation-Brigades" - and most of them did not speak Serbo-Croatian, but were Albanian Mercenaries from Kosovo. Later, the KLA was heavily supported from Saudi-Arabia. In 1995, Osama bin Laden was an official guest to Albanian President Sali Berisha and also at this meeting were KLA-leaders Ramus Haradinaj (former prime-minister of Kosovo) and Hasim Taci (current prime minister of Kosovo). At this meeting, the chief of the albanian Secret-Police, Bashkim Gazideda, was nominated into a group of al-Qaeda-leaders who should coordinate activities at the Balkan. One of the advisers of KLA-Forces was Muhammad al-Zawahiri, brother of Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Although Kosovo is clearly far from being an islamist-state, Totten's article is a little bit too optimistic, I think.

If we reject those who love us, they will learn not to love us.

72 softball dad  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:10:36am

I work with 2 Bosnians here in Afghanistan and they hate the local population because they steal and stink. These 2 guys also love pork and alcohol. Bob

73 Green Helmet Guy  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:17:56am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I've become convinced that regional versions of Islam (Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, etc) have historically proven themselves to be peaceful and tolerant. The problem comes with "Arabized" Islam exported from Saudi funded mosques in recent years.

That makes sense. From what I understand many Bosniaks and Albanians, who were originally Christians, converted to Islam out of "convenience", and not so much out of religious fervor, so that they wouldn't be dhimmis and have to pay jizya and have a long list of restrictions.

The original culture continued until the Roman and Byzantine Empires crowned Christianity- as official religion of the regime, thus suffusing Paganism. Both were later overshadowed by Islam, which kept the scepter of the major religion during the period of Ottoman Turkish rule from the 15th century until year 1912.


Albanians


Plus Sufism/Bektashi plays a role in both countries.

74 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:26:46am

re: #70 gegenkritik

Did you not read the entire article?

Tellingly, Kosovo’s only Islamist party got just 1.7 percent of the vote in the last election. Not even during the 1999 war, when ethnic Albanians were desperate for help, were Islamists welcome in Kosovo.

Additionally:

Even so, the KLA was a murky organization with alleged links to organized crime and political gangsterism, and it was dissolved in September 1999, almost immediately after NATO’s intervention. Many of its former commanders ran for office in Kosovo’s first postwar election and lost overwhelmingly to the Democratic League of Kosovo, led by the pacifist Ibrahim Rugova. Kosovo is almost unique in history for rejecting its militant would-be liberators after earning de facto independence.

I have yet to see anything that would suggest I should question Mr. Totten's integrity regarding his reports.

Meanwhile, you raise issues from 1995, while Mr. Totten is saying that more recent developments show Wahhabism not taking hold.

75 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:40:13am
76 Nemesis6  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:14:55am

It's just a pity that on the religious debate they're sensible, and nationally, they're ready for another genocide of whomever... while of course denying their own genocides. Essentially, the entire Yugoslavia is like Serbia in that aspect: You know, the whole "everyone's against us so we need to constantly hate our neighbors, deny our warcrimes and admonish anything suggesting we trust them! Srbe na vrbe!" kind of thing. But I guess all countries have their own problems, the Balkan countries just all have the same ones... :/

77 Nemesis6  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:15:46am

Of course you wouldn't hear a Serb saying "srbe na vrbe" but you might get the idea! :)

78 yochanan  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:20:44am

one of the Islamic influences is SUFI Islam which doesn't believe in jihad BUT and this is a big but they are not considered main line Muslims so I am not sure that Balkan Muslims will reproduced any were else. Just look at Macedonia were Sufi Muslims are under attack from the Whahabists and other Jihadists. We have to support those who want to enter the 21st century but we should not be fooled into thinking that they are more important than they are.

79 red satellite  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:54:16am
“Muslims here identify themselves as Muslim Lite,”

Because it tastes great, or because it's less filling?

80 arkay  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:00:22am

....but....but....but....every Serb I've ever heard said they wanted to chop the heads off of Christian babies and use them in their secret rituals!

/spit

Seriously. I'm well familiar with the 'not really Muslim' phenomenon, having met Bosnian "muslims" who are about as Islamic as your average New York Times family stockholder is a fanatical Hasid or your New York Times reporter is a fanatical pro-life Catholic. (Not to say that these are the equivalent of your average Jihadist!)

Anyway. In the former Yugoslavia, they say: "Here plums grow, not palm trees." (Plums are used to make slivovitz/rakia, the national drink of the region.)

81 akak  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:23:23am

re: #10 Killgore Trout

There is hope and reformed Islam will come from the West. It may even supplant the Saudi version eventually.


lol

82 Abdullah al-Libi  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:56:49am

What we need is a white version of Malcolm X to go to Kosovo and tell the people there that they have to get rid of their "slave names" and the religion forced upon them by these Ottoman d*ckheads. If they're so anti-jihad, then go back to using traditional European names and turn the mosques into museums like Ataturk did.

If the POS's on the left are so adamant about getting rid of the false consciousness imposed on people by imperialists then tell them to start here in Kosovo. Hell will freeze over before that will happen because Islam by definition is a "VICTIM" according to nutjob liberals.

83 the_flying_pig  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 6:09:59am

I am happy what's going on in Kosovo/Albania has convinced me that the Arabic Muslim radicals in the Middle East really needed to chill the f**k out with their fundamentalist Wahhabi-jihadist ideology.

84 Marlin925  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 6:10:17am

Killgore Trout, et al: BTDT Kosovo, when I was there, UCK thugs were murdering Serb farmers like it was the national past time. A snake's nature never changes. The shite in Kosovo woke me up about Jihad pre-9/11.

85 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 6:30:54am

Nice article. Shows the grubby claims of Robert Spencer and his pathetic supporters for what they are.

86 Teh Flowah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 6:34:24am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

This is why Folks like Spencer and Geert Wilders piss me off so much. Kosovo (and Albania) is exactly what we want Islam to be: modern, peaceful, tolerant, and secular. But the Ethnic nationalists who've taken over the counter-Jihad movement would rather the Kosovars be wiped out of existence. If Kosovo starts being a problem I'll gladly eat crow but for right now Denmark, London, Paris, and Madrid each produce more Jihadis than Kosovo and Albania combined. That's a fact.


Kosovo isn't what I want from muslims. The article talks mostly about how they are only nominally muslim and not actually. I want real, practicing muslims to embrace liberalism and reform. What's happening is here is basically what exists with Jews now, where we equate Jews with a certain ethnicity and not necessarily a religion. So these "muslims" in Kosovo are only "ethnically muslim" but don't practice. It's not a real step forward or a model to look to.

87 notutopia  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 6:40:40am

Kudos Totten for your insight and a Beautifully written piece of journalism. Kosovo IS an inspiration and provides me with hope that at one historical future time, we will ALL live together in a more peaceful union on this planet, despite our religious preferences and differences. It gives me real hope that if this is possible and REAL now to exist in Kosovo, that the reformation of Muslims is a true possibility for a percentage of the Muslim extremists to be rebuked by Muslim moderates. Realistically, I do not think however that the evolution will occur for the Arab nations, or for the rest of Europe, or for me to get to witness it, in my lifetime. Perhaps though... in another century. It could be possible for our great, great grandchildren to live in a moderate and peaceful world. I HOPE in sincere genuineness. I HOPE for this to BE.

88 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 6:47:10am

re: #9 Sharmuta

Is so, it's what Mr. Totten is describing in Kosovo.

In Scotland, it's my personal observation that mixing between young muslims and non muslims is gradually turning the muslims into normal people who drink, eat pork and watch south park. They still identify strongly as muslims - they just don't take any of it very seriously. There are opposite trends in effect too of course, but I think each passing year is creating more home grown normals than fundamentalists(despite scary polls about support for sharia etc). But I can only speak for Glasgow/Edinburgh in that respect.

89 ciaospirit  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:16:09am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

The key is here.....

Their religion may be Eastern, but Albanians have been culturally European for all of recorded history.

"Culturally European" means that they are essentially secularists. I know that's a dirty word around here but Western Christians and Jews are secularists as well. Even if they don't admit it.

That's how the author describes them in the article. This is how they describe themselves in the article. Even if you don't want to admit it.

They often call themselves “culturally Christian”

Without Christianity there would be no Albanian people, language, culture, or traditions . . . Albanians consider Christianity their patrimony, their spiritual and cultural inheritance.”

90 filetandrelease  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:19:37am

I am grateful for the article. I have always been somewhat concerned about the infamous high altitude bombing campaign Clinton took not being certain we were on the right side. Apparently we were.

91 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:31:37am
92 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:34:30am
93 kiwidoc  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:42:26am

My wife is Serbian and still has alot of family in the former Yugoslavia...the one thing that Mr. Totten fails to mention is the destruction of hundreds of churches and historical religious sites by these "liberal" Muslims. It's fine that the women don't wear traditional Islamic dress, but that hardly makes up for the systematic elimination of the history of the Serbian Orthodox religion.

94 Zack  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:49:33am

One man's moderate is another's apostate.

95 Throbert McGee  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 7:52:08am

re: #77 Nemesis6

Of course you wouldn't hear a Serb saying "srbe na vrbe" but you might get the idea! :)

Heh! Vrbe was sorta-kinda ringing a bell in my brain, but I couldn't think of a Russian word that sounds like that and made sense in the context. (All I could think of was verbliud, which means "camel," but why would anyone say "Serbs on a camel"?)

So I whipped out my dic (namely, Ozhegov's Dictionary of the Russian Language) and found the word verba, which means "willow" or "pussy-willow." Aha, that's why the bell was ringing -- because then I remembered that the Russian phrase for the Sunday before Easter is Verbnoye Voskresen'ye, "Pussy-Willow Sunday" ('cause palm trees are as scarce in Russia as they are in former Yugoslavia).

Thus, the phrase Srbe na vrbe means "Serbs on the willow-tree" -- with the implication of lynching them.

96 Teh Flowah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 8:02:46am

re: #93 kiwidoc

My wife is Serbian and still has alot of family in the former Yugoslavia...the one thing that Mr. Totten fails to mention is the destruction of hundreds of churches and historical religious sites by these "liberal" Muslims. It's fine that the women don't wear traditional Islamic dress, but that hardly makes up for the systematic elimination of the history of the Serbian Orthodox religion.


Actually, he does mention that. He says it was about ethnic conflict though, and not religion. l2readthewholearticle.

97 Ron Shaw  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 8:11:46am

Infidels and apostates, too?

98 kiwidoc  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 8:18:44am

I read the whole article...it's about religion (Muslim defines a religion, not an ethnicity)...his whole point is the liberal brand of Islam...not a liberal brand of Balkan. I'm Methodist...does that make me white, black, Asian, or would you not know as my religion defines my religion, not my ethnicity? When one religion decides to destroy another religion's history and identity, that is about religion, not ethnicity.

99 FIVEOFNINE  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 8:24:31am

This is a bull sh*t article. The muslims of Kosovo have been burning down most of the Christian churches in Kosovo.
There are no moderate muslims.
Most muslims are either hard core terroristS or are like the German people during the Nazi regime. They will follow orders no matter HOW EVIL the orders are.

PRAY FOR THE CONVERSION OF MUSLIMS.

100 FIVEOFNINE  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 8:29:05am

Please note, I am not against the people who were born in that hate filled religion but against that religion. I pity them. Islam is worst than communism.
Most people in a communist society quickly learns that it is a evil and stupid ideology. But in the islamic society, most people succumb to their fate because it is the will of allah, (a false and evil god).

101 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:26:55am

Seems to me that Muslims are moderate to the exact degree by which they do not practice their religion.

102 Teh Flowah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:31:16am

re: #98 kiwidoc

I read the whole article...it's about religion (Muslim defines a religion, not an ethnicity)...his whole point is the liberal brand of Islam...not a liberal brand of Balkan. I'm Methodist...does that make me white, black, Asian, or would you not know as my religion defines my religion, not my ethnicity? When one religion decides to destroy another religion's history and identity, that is about religion, not ethnicity.

Then you need to understand words I guess? He says over and over that these muslims identify strongly with christianity and Europe, that their muslim identity is barely religious if it is at all. It's ethnic. Just like being Jewish can be both a religion and ethnic identity. Is that so hard to understand?

Look at these exact quotes I found in his article
"And in the later attacks, ethnic Albanian mobs burned Orthodox churches because they were Serb, not because they were Christian. Catholic churches weren’t touched—because their congregations were Albanian. (This isn’t a matter of anti-Orthodox sentiment among Muslims, either. Though no Albanian Orthodox Christians live in Kosovo, 20 percent of the population in Albania itself is Albanian Orthodox, and relations between them and the Albanian Muslim majority are perfectly fine.)"

So yes, he addresses exactly the issue you said he doesn't address, and he identifies it as an ethnic conflict, not a religious one, as I said. If you read this article as you say you did, you did a terrible job of it. Now, if you want to argue the facts on the ground and say he is wrong, then do so. But saying he didn't write about something when he clearly did, makes me doubt your claim to have read it.re: #99 FIVEOFNINE

This is a bull sh*t article. The muslims of Kosovo have been burning down most of the Christian churches in Kosovo.
There are no moderate muslims.
Most muslims are either hard core terroristS or are like the German people during the Nazi regime. They will follow orders no matter HOW EVIL the orders are.

PRAY FOR THE CONVERSION OF MUSLIMS.


I hope you're just some KosKid who comes in here and tries to paint the whole of LGF as racists. Otherwise, go to Europe and look up some of the white supremacist fascists that you'd fit right in with.

103 Charles  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:33:54am

re: #99 FIVEOFNINE

Your ignorant, bigoted comments are not welcome at LGF. I'm not going to delete them, so they'll serve as a record of why your account has been blocked.

104 Teh Flowah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:34:19am

re: #101 Ringo the Gringo

Seems to me that Muslims are moderate to the exact degree by which they do not practice their religion.


No, I've met plenty of liberal muslims who also practice their religion. I went to a well known private school that had lots of boarding students from Asia and the Middle East. Many of them were quite liberal in their beliefs and were even sympathetic towards Israel. At the very least, they were not hostile towards Israel in the way that many muslims over there are. But it seems to me that is not what is being described in the article, and it is a lack of these kinds of true believing moderate muslims that is the problem. I won't blame the moderate ones for not speaking out. I know that I for one am probably not courageous enough that were I living in an oppressive regime as Saudi Arabia or Iran, I would not try to provoke the authorities too much.

105 Charles  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:39:13am

re: #93 kiwidoc

You read the whole article? Then why did you write this?

...the one thing that Mr. Totten fails to mention is the destruction of hundreds of churches and historical religious sites by these "liberal" Muslims.

Because that's very definitely addressed in Totten's article, but for some reason you accused him of failing to mention it.

106 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:41:04am

re: #99 FIVEOFNINE

Serb propaganda designed to justify previous failed genocidal campaigns - no more convincing than Hitler's claims that the Jews were the wreckers of Germany.

107 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:58:36am

re: #105 Charles

It's easy for some folk to imagine that all muslims see the world purely in terms of muslim vs non-muslim, but when you are dealing with moderate or secular muslims, other rivalries easily take precedence. Just after the attacks on Glasgow Airport, the young Scottish muslims I was speaking to blamed it (incorrectly as it turned out) on English muslims, saying to one "Go back to your own country and take your terrorists with you!"

108 MPH  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 9:59:21am

re: #22 Salamantis

Michael Totten is a precious gift. Just like Glenn Reynolds, Ed Morrissey, Wretchard, Bill Whittle, and Allahpundit. And Charles.

Couldn't agree more...

109 Nemesis6  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 10:06:51am

re: #95 Throbert McGee

Well, from the willow trees. It's a phrase coined by the Slovenians, then embraced popularized by the Croatian founder of the Ustashe, and now the Croatians like chanting it in soccer/basketball/whatever games. One side chants "Srbe", a few seconds pass and another side of the audience chant "na vrbe!". European football has this problem, and it's hardly confined to the loony bin of Europe(the yugo countries). So in Western Europe the audience does the Nazi salute, chants racist remarks, etc, and in the Balkan countries, they express their hatred towards one another. It would be funny it wasn't so sad.

110 MPH  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 10:08:49am

I spent two weeks traveling across almost all of Albania. In London, you'll see more muslim woman covered up in two minutes than you'd see in two weeks in Albania.
[Link: michaelhussey.com...]

We were able to visit some of the oldest churches in the Balkans.
[Link: picasaweb.google.com...]

In the city of Elbasan, within 100 meters of each other, we saw a Jewish community center, a mosque, and an albanian orthodox church.
[Link: picasaweb.google.com...]

If you are thinking of visiting Greece, in light of the craziness there, I highly suggest you look north to Albania. More welcoming -- much cheaper -- and excellent adventures and beaches up and down.

111 MPH  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 10:13:40am

My wife's family hosted a Kosovar refugee family during the war in 1999. The father of the family always joked he was 500 years old. Asked why, he explained how he was forced by Serbian forces to participate in the construction of orthodox churches in Kosovo, which the Serbian government would then say were built 500 years ago.

112 Charles the Hammer  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 12:00:11pm

No offense, MPH, but I call bullshit. The only thing the Muslims have done lately in Kosovo (or for over a decade) is destroy churches.

[Link: www.rfcnet.org...]

I've been hearing stories like this for years - going back to the '90's. All the nonsense we've heard about the war was just that - nonsense. There were no "death camps," there were atrocities, but they were committed by both armies, on all sides. The Western media simply backed the Bosnian Muslims because Clinton did. There were no "10,000" Kosovar Muslims killed. Clinton's lie of "10,000" Muslims killed got people killed . . . innocent people.

This idea that the Kosovar Muslims are "moderate" or "secular" is nonsense (that is, that ONLY "moderate" and "secular" Muslims populate Kosovo, because they don't wear sacks).

[Link: grayfalcon.blogspot.com...]

[Link: www.archive.org...]

Even some liberals recognize the falsity of the claims:
[Link: www.commondreams.org...]

[Link: www.aim.org...]

Stop with the lies about Serbia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

the sinner,

Charles

113 maryatexitzero  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:00:19pm

Even some liberals recognize the falsity of the claims:

Yes, 'Charles the Hammer', liberals, radical leftists and stalinists like the war criminals' best friend Ramsey Clark propagandized about the falsity of these claims. Many of these anti-American revisionists publish articles in far-left journals like CommonDreams. Many also signed the infamous petition to Free Slobodan Milosevic.

Historical revisionists like Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, and holocaust denier Edward Herman spent years writing volumes of dreck denying these war crimes. Their relentless attempts to rewrite history polluted the Western media for years. Most of the current attempts to whitewash the Serbs are based on 'research' done by these revisionists.

One of those revisionists, Neil Clark, famously said of Slobodan Milosevic that ‘his worst crime was to carry on being a socialist.’

If there's anything Stalinists, fascists, anti-Americans and random authoritarians have faith in, it's propaganda. Basic rule of propaganda: if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.

Unfortunately, that cliche doesn't hold true for anyone with working brain synapses. So, just keep on quoting common dreams and bellowing about rotten Kosovar muslims. It's about as effective and fact-based as a Che t-shirt.

114 EuskalHerria  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:17:13pm

Kaixo!

Those such as Jimmah, Kilgore Trout, J.S., Sharmuta and J.C.M. are woefully ignorant about the true nature of Islam, its Quranic texts, and the Hadiths. There is NO such thing as moderate Islam, only non-observant, so-called "moderate" Muslims. Until Islam is radically changed to remove all references to universal hegemony, the domination and subjugation of all other religions, the imposition (by force or by stealth) of Sharia law on free peoples, in fine the deletion of all obstacles to the supremacy of Islam throughout the world, pipe dreams about changing the fascistic belief system of Islam are just that-fantasies, while the violent jihad as per Mumbai, 9/11, Spain and Britain and the stealth jihad being practiced throughout the world to spread Islamic domination continues unabated. The only ones who can reform Islam are its leaders, and since Mohammed is regarded as Uswa Hasana Al Kamil Al Insan, the Perfect Man, whose conduct is to be emulated in every way possible, it would be sacrilege for anyone to criticize or change the "sacred" texts and teachings of Islam. They would be subject to death, as would any Muslim apostasizing from Islam.
The criticisms of Gert Wilders and Robert Spencer are grossly unfair; they are keen scholars of Islam, and they back up all of their criticisms and analysis of Islam by referring directly to the Islamic scriptures and statements of the Imams and other leaders of the faith. The so-called "moderate" Muslims of Kosovo are Kuffars and Infidels in the eyes of the Islamofascists, and will be in as much danger down the road as the Jews and Christians.
I recommend everyone read Mark Steyn's "America Alone", if they haven't done so yet; it will open your eyes. Since he wrote this book, his predictions have been unfolding before our eyes. We are truly engaged in World War III against totalitarian Islam!

Gero arte!

115 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:29:38pm

re: #114 EuskalHerria

First of all- you assume I an unaware of the things you've written about islamic texts. I've spent quite a bit of time reading the koran and even Mr. Spencer's books. Too assume I'm ignorant of islam makes you- how does that saying go? Oh yeah- an ass.

Second- if islam were to moderate- what do you think that might look like? Gee- maybe like Kosovo?

You call them apostates, and in the eyes of radical islamists they probably would be viewed as such. So your solution is... to tell us we don't know about islam? They are no different than us in that they will be targeted, but I get the feeling that instead of standing up for them to live their lives in peace, you would rather we toss them under the bus. If all of islam were to renounce jihad today- would you still hate it?

And as for robert spencer- are you aware he allows his blog to be used as a platform for neo-fascists to spew their evil ideology, or do you not care?

116 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:32:31pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

And please excuse my typos.

117 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:37:12pm

re: #114 EuskalHerria

Those such as Jimmah, Kilgore Trout, J.S., Sharmuta and J.C.M. are woefully ignorant about the true nature of Islam, its Quranic texts, and the Hadiths.

It doesn't occur to you that we know exactly what you know, but have just taken the trouble to think and reflect a bit more than you have.

There is NO such thing as moderate Islam, only non-observant, so-called "moderate" Muslims.

And if all muslims became non-observant 'so called moderates', would you still be waging an anti-jihad against them because as you put it there is still 'no moderate Islam'? Yes you would - you're doing just that with the Kossovans.

The only ones who can reform Islam are its leaders, and since Mohammed is regarded as Uswa Hasana Al Kamil Al Insan, the Perfect Man, whose conduct is to be emulated in every way possible, it would be sacrilege for anyone to criticize or change the "sacred" texts and teachings of Islam. They would be subject to death, as would any Muslim apostasizing from Islam.

I used to think that too. It was reading the Bible (after reading the Koran) and discovering many inhumane commands (example: the command to kill sabbath workers) that seem to be just as unequivocal and inflexible as stated as those in the Koran, that made me realise that it must be possible to achieve reform in Islam as well. Believers can individually and collectively choose to ignore or explain away verses that they are uncomfortable with- usually along the lines of saying that while understandable/applicable at the time of writing, they would be wrong in today's world. No matter how thunderous the divine commands, if the will is there, a way can always be found to ignore them.

118 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 1:45:02pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

re: #115 Sharmuta

Second- if islam were to moderate- what do you think that might look like? Gee- maybe like Kosovo?

As you can see, I had pretty much the same thought on that as you. Great minds ;)

119 EuskalHerria  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:05:17pm

Kaixo, Sharmuta!
I am surprised that you think that Robert Spencer allows his blog to be used by neo-fascists to "spew their evil ideology". Would you be so kind as to offer some examples? On another topic, I DO NOT hate or dislike Muslims; I have worked with a number of them in my former employment, and found most of them to be fine people. It is their religious ideology that I distrust, and no matter how "moderate" they appear to be, given the radical religion they belong to, and the hatred they are exposed to at their mosques against Christians, Jews, and other "polytheist" religions, their children are fair game for being recruited as jihadists and jihadi sympathizers.
Why do you think that I want to "throw the Kosovars under the bus"? Who do you think I am-Barack Hussein Obama? I merely think that they should renounce Islam. What good is it for them to remain members of a suicidal death cult?
How, pray tell, is Islam to be reformed when a third of the Quran is composed of imperialist, expansionist, intolerant passages which mandate Islamic supremacy? The idea that we all can just join hands and sing "Kumbaya" and just "get along" will be the death of western civilization. Unless we all are satisfied to become subservient Dhimmis we will have to stand up and say "no further" to those who would subvert our government and way of life-this means creeping Sharia law (as Great Britain is even now experiencing) and Sharia-compliant financing (as AIG is implementing for its Islamic clients).

Agur! Gero arte!

120 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:12:54pm

re: #119 EuskalHerria

Would you be so kind as to offer some examples?

fjordman's essays are quite welcome there and posted frequently.

121 EuskalHerria  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:22:14pm

Kaixo, Jimmah

Of course, you realize that the New Testament preaches the "Good News". Christ taught the true brotherhood of all men, and there are NO Christian churches which proselytize by force and violence. Christianity recognizes free moral agency, and compulsion and violence have no place in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is radically different from Islam, which literally means "Submission to the Will of Allah". Picking passages from the Old Testament which support oppression or violence is not a good argument; Christ came to bring the Gospel of Peace to the world, and those who are true followers of Christ will not wish to do evil to anyone. However, this does not mean that we should submit to evil in any form. There is only ONE major religion which has as its goal the subjugation and elimination of all obstacles to its world domination-that is Islam.

Agur!

122 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:28:08pm

re: #119 EuskalHerria

Also- I didn't say anything about you hating muslims, I specifically said "islam" because I didn't want to assume you were bigoted towards muslims.

Telling them they must renounce islam makes you no different than jihadis insisting you must revert or die. But see- as an American, I stand by the Constitution, that they have the right of free exercise that is found in the first amendment. It is this right that also protects me from having them force islam upon me.

If you had read the article, you'd have seen this:

Many Kosovars are starting to convert “back” to Christianity.

If we want the moderates to stand a chance, then we must support them when we find them, otherwise we certainly leave them to the hands of jihadists. By our support, they have a better chance of rejecting islamist advance than if we turn our backs on them. Think about it.

123 Basho  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:46:34pm

re: #22 Salamantis

Michael Totten is a precious gift. Just like Glenn Reynolds, Ed Morrissey, Wretchard, Bill Whittle, and Allahpundit. And Charles.

What's Ed Morrissey's history? He seems to have a lot of respect in the conservative internet circles. I think he is annoying and a horrible commentator...

124 Basho  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:48:51pm

Wow... this thread only has 122 comments? There are always a bunch of people on evolution threads who complain that LGF should be talking more about jihad. One would think they would take advantage of this amazing report by Totten to start a discussion.

125 EuskalHerria  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 2:54:16pm

Kaixo, Sharmuta:

I assume we both agree that Radical Islam is to be resisted wherever it tries to impose its will on free peoples. I certainly do support the moderate Kosovar Muslims, but they will be in grave danger if they don't "repent" and become staunch, observant followers of Mohammed, which means adapting Sharia law and observing all of Islam's tenets, including both violent and stealth Jihad. I feel a great amount of empathy for them, for to convert from Islam is tantamount to a death sentence under Sharia law. They are "darned if they do and darned if they don't!" Such is the fate of all moderate Muslims should they fall under subjection to the Sharia. I pray that they will be saved. As for the reform of Islam, lots of luck with that! Unfortunately, there is no world leader of Islam, as there is with the Catholic Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, to say,"THus Sayeth the Lord", or "This is the doctrine of the Church".

Agur!

126 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:00:43pm

re: #125 EuskalHerria

So- you think they will be saved by the west not supporting them? I am not arguing that radical islamists are a threat to them as they are likewise to us. My point is that to shun the Kosovars is to leave them to the hands of the islamists. Is that what you want?

127 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:05:56pm

re: #121 EuskalHerria

Of course, you realize that the New Testament preaches the "Good News". Christ taught the true brotherhood of all men, and there are NO Christian churches which proselytize by force and violence.

- Yeah....today. We'll just forget about the crusades. And Jesus isn't the salvation of the Jews. According to your logic, they should still be stuck in the mosaic times, irretrievably wedded to every word of their scriptures and the commands therein. But they are not.

Picking passages from the Old Testament which support oppression or violence is not a good argument; Christ came to bring the Gospel of Peace to the world, and those who are true followers of Christ will not wish to do evil to anyone. However, this does not mean that we should submit to evil in any form. There is only ONE major religion which has as its goal the subjugation and elimination of all obstacles to its world domination-that is Islam.

There is a moderate muslim analog for every argument you used there to defend your scriptures there. It is certainly true though that all religions are not equal, and Islam does have some features which make it especially problematic, but it does not follow that those features will always be considered essential to the faith.

Those who insist that it is immune to reform are leaving only one option open, it seems to me - some sort of grand, final religious battle to cleanse the muslims from the surface of the earth. Too often these days, it seems that really is the agenda.

128 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:08:39pm

re: #127 Jimmah

Those who insist that it is immune to reform are leaving only one option open, it seems to me - some sort of grand, final religious battle to cleanse the muslims from the surface of the earth. Too often these days, it seems that really is the agenda.

You need look no further than pamela.

129 Jimmah  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:13:46pm

re: #128 Sharmuta

Yeah...I just remembered that piece of hers that Killgore quoted the other night - unbelievable.

130 ilovebirds[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 3:37:51pm
131 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:01:31pm

re: #130 ilovebirds

Oh yes, another long-winded piece from one of the leading apologists "moderate" Islam and Kosovo's independence. When will you people learn that there is no moderate form of Islam? It has never existed in the past and does not exist now. I would love to see a moderate form of Islam, don't get me wrong, but let's take a look at reality. As of now, such a form of Islam does not exist. Read your Koran, people. Take a look at the facts. And while you're at it, stop apologizing and sympathizing with a bunch of murderers and war criminals (the Muslims of the Balkans). These people committed terrible atrocities in the 1990s. Just because they got away with it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

The Quran is not moderate. Its words will not change. But there can indeed be such creatures as moderate Muslims, who dop not heed the worst of the passages, much as moderate members of other faiths also do. And these Kosovars are some of them.

It seems to me that religious Armageddon-desirers on this issue reside on both the Christian and the Muslim side of this conflict. And I have heard some Christians denounce moderate Muslims with, if anything, more impassioned vociferousness than have the Islamists.

The people who herded Bosnians into the first European concentration camps since WW II, who marched 8000 Srebrenicans past UN 'peacekeepers' into the woods and mass murdered them, who killed more than 1300 Sarajevan children with sniper fire during their two year siege of that tolerant multi-ethnic, multi-religious and multi-cultural city, were Orthodox Christian Serbs.

132 Charles the Hammer  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:03:54pm

re: #113 maryatexitzero

Even some liberals recognize the falsity of the claims:

Yes, 'Charles the Hammer', liberals, radical leftists and stalinists like the war criminals' best friend Ramsey Clark propagandized about the falsity of these claims. Many of these anti-American revisionists publish articles in far-left journals like CommonDreams. Many also signed the infamous petition to Free Slobodan Milosevic.

Historical revisionists like Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, and holocaust denier Edward Herman spent years writing volumes of dreck denying these war crimes. Their relentless attempts to rewrite history polluted the Western media for years. Most of the current attempts to whitewash the Serbs are based on 'research' done by these revisionists.

One of those revisionists, Neil Clark, famously said of Slobodan Milosevic that ‘his worst crime was to carry on being a socialist.’

If there's anything Stalinists, fascists, anti-Americans and random authoritarians have faith in, it's propaganda. Basic rule of propaganda: if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.

Unfortunately, that cliche doesn't hold true for anyone with working brain synapses. So, just keep on quoting common dreams and bellowing about rotten Kosovar muslims. It's about as effective and fact-based as a Che t-shirt.

Please don't read a position into my statement that isn't there. It is pathetic. I do NOT believe that Milosevic was a good man or innocent. I have no doubt he needed to be tried and was, in all likelihood, an evil man guilty of horrendous crimes. The attempt to lump me in with lunatics like Chomsky or other Marxist/fascists is pathetic.

I only pointed to the Common Dreams article because, unlike most Common Dreams articles, it actually cites verified references. Let me say this one more time, so that even you can understand: there were atrocities committed. HOWEVER: the numbers were NOT what we were told and never were. The casualty numbers come not from "revisionists," but UN investigations and independent groups. The White Paper (did you even read it?) was from a group promoting freedom of religion, and was not pro-Serb or anything that might render their research "revisionist."

Your mindless sweeping aside of any and all alternative information only shows your own dogmatic ignorance. Please read the articles, all of them, and do a little more research. The Serge Trifkovic has also done very detailed work in revealing what actually happened in Bosnia/Serbia and Kosovo.

Islam is the only major world religion that, in its textual/historical foundation, calls for the death or subjugation or conversion of all non-believers. This is a direct command from Muhammed, who is seen as the perfect example. Robert Spencer does an excellent job in "The Truth About Muhammed" showing how we, outside of Islam, should view Islam to understand it as they see it. That there are those who don't follow the dictates name above is great - but to ignore it is to deny the infallibility of Muhammed, which creates theological issues.

I do not hate Muslims. I love them as I love all people. But I will not excuse Islam. Nor do I think that attempting to not criticize Islam for the sake of appearing "high-minded" or "tolerant" does any good. Unless you identify the issues, you can never deal with them. That there are good Muslims does not mean that Islam can "co-exist." Like a cyclical event, the religion of Islam, itself, will come back to its foundation, as it inevitably does throughout history. "From Time Immemorial" does an excellent job in documenting the cyclical violence against non-Muslims within the Muslim world.

the sinner,

Charles

133 Charles the Hammer[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:13:12pm
134 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:15:04pm

It wasn't just Milosevic, who died just before he could be sentenced for crimes against humanity at the Hague. It was Karadzic, who was recently apprehended. And Mladic, who's still at large in Serbia. And many, many more. Just as Hitler and his henchmen did not kill six million Jews without the assistance of many, many Germans, the Serbian atrocities were not committed without the assistance of a lot of Serbs.

Atrocities are atrocities, regardless of the religion or ethnicity of those committing them or of those suffering them. And members of every monotheistic religion have historically been both their victims and their perpetrators.

We here are fully aware of what the different monotheistic scriptures say. And we are also aware that the vast majority of their adherents do not follow all of their prescriptions to the letter. Which is a GOOD thing, on all sides.

135 maryatexitzero  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:20:47pm

Oh yes, another long-winded piece from one of the leading apologists "moderate" Islam and Kosovo's independence. When will you people learn that there is no moderate form of Islam?..And while you're at it, stop apologizing and sympathizing with a bunch of murderers and war criminals (the Muslims of the Balkans). These people committed terrible atrocities in the 1990s. Just because they got away with it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Blaming 'Islam' for the actions of radical, political groups like al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Toiba or Hizb-ut Tahrir is like blaming German, or European culture, for the rise of Nazism. Yes, it is a culture with a history of violence, but how do you fight a religion, or a culture? Strategically and ideologically, it's a waste of effort.

Islam is used as a recruiting tool by terrorist groups, but many people join these organizations for the usual reasons - money, drugs, influence, the gangster lifestyle. It's no coincidence that many of the leaders and supporters of Pakistan's Lashkar-e-Toiba are mobsters. The financial/ideological branch of Sunni terrorism, the Muslim Brotherhood, has an underground economy that's worth billions. Hezbollah finances its activities through cigarette smuggling and drug sales.

Some of our most reliable allies, the Kurds in Northern Iraq, are conservative Muslims. After 9/11, CAIR lost 90% of its Muslim members. The organization is not popular with the average Muslim, moderate or not. If it wasn't for Saudi support, CAIR would have folded a long time ago.

I have to wonder why justifiable anger against criminal regimes and easily identifiable (and stategically weak) terror supporters, like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hizb-ut Tahrir is being redirected to "Muslims" in general. The Saudis, like the old Marxists who created all of that pro-Serb revisionism, are very skilled propagandists. CAIR has been very effective at generating a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment. It woudn't be the first time Islamists and the far left played this kind of game.

136 mindy1  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:26:39pm

Good for them for being so open

137 Charles the Hammer[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:28:18pm
138 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:33:30pm

re: #130 ilovebirds

Charles- I believe this is a sock puppet you've banned previously.

139 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:40:33pm

re: #137 Charles the Hammer

So you try to justify your position by reference to a pro-Serbian propaganda site? This action does nothing to refute the proven fact of Serbian atrocities, nor the fact that the lion's share of atrocities in that conflict, not just against the Bosnian and Kosovar Muslims, but also against the Roman Catholic Croats, were committed by the Orthodox Serbs. What it does do is to inform me as to the agenda of someone who would attempt to employ such a site.

140 Arkay  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 4:56:06pm

And as far as how the Muslims fled into safe-haven towns after committing atrocities for which they have never been brought to justice (and probably never will)

You're probably referring to the [Orthodox] 'Christmas Day Massacre' of 1993, where the dreaded EEEEEVIL Nasir Oric led a raid from Srebrenica into a town called Kravica, where he "MASSACRED!" the "VILLAGERS"! And, oh, by the way, stole all the Christmas food so that the people in his besieged city could eat.

Yeah. When I was there I had a long interview with the British investigator for the ICTY who did the background on the Kravica killings. He told me the following:

"We escavated the graves of those killed at the 1993 Kravica massacre. There were 110 dead. 108 of them were in Serb army uniforms--apparently caught in bed, drunk, by the Srebrenica guerillas. There were two women in the mass graves. The rest? Military aged males in uniforms. So much for the 'massacre' of 1993. It was nothing but a very effective dawn raid on a sleeping enemy. The women were likely guests of the soldiers killed."

There WAS a massacre at Kravica, however. In 1995, the Serb V Army Corps put 1000 captured Srebrenica Muslim men into a barn and machine gunned the lot. The barn was still standing when I left, in 2002. With 1800 bullet holes in its exterior and black mold and rotting flesh still smellable within. This was vengeance for the 1993 Christmas "massacre".

I don't want to hear any Serb whining about anti-Serb massacres during the war they caused, started, and lost. If you don't want bad shit to happen to your people, don't start mindlessly stupid genocidal wars. Thank you.

(PS. I'm Irish/German with zero ancestry in the area. But I DO, and did, have eyes to see, and ears to hear.)

141 Arkay  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 5:02:17pm

The Source of All Wisdom and Knowledge, Wikipedia, is actually pretty accurate in this point:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Worth a read.

142 Charles  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 5:14:38pm

'ilovebirds' is a Serbian apologist sock puppet, banned under two other accounts.

Once again, I bid you adieu.

143 Salamantis  Mon, Dec 15, 2008 5:29:11pm

re: #141 Arkay

The Source of All Wisdom and Knowledge, Wikipedia, is actually pretty accurate in this point:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Worth a read.

They're pretty comprehensive on the Srebrenica massacre and the siege of Sarajevo, too:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Not to mention the concentration camps, also:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

144 medaura18586  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:10:18pm

re: #133 Charles the Hammer

Chronicles Magazine: The magazine of the League of the South, an anti-Semitic cesspool publishing Buchanan's articles, and whose foreign correspondent Sjrda Trifkovic was Radovan Karadzic's official spokesperson, as well as the monster Biljana Plavšić.

Charles, if you look into what that magazine stands for, you may not want to welcome their links.


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