The Latest Face of Creationism in the Classroom

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 3:59 pm PST • Views: 986

At Scientific American, here’s an excellent in-depth article by Glenn Branch and Eugenie C. Scott, on recent developments in the ongoing Creationism Wars for control of the science classes of America: The Latest Face of Creationism in the Classroom.

Cox and ForkumProfessors routinely give advice to students but usually while their charges are still in school. Arthur Landy, a distinguished professor of molecular and cell biology and biochemistry at Brown University, recently decided, however, that he had to remind a former premed student of his that “without evolution, modern biology, including medicine and biotechnology, wouldn’t make sense.”

The sentiment was not original with Landy, of course. Thirty-six years ago geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky, a major contributor to the foundations of modern evolutionary theory, famously told the readers of The American Biology Teacher that “nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution.” Back then, Dobzhansky was encouraging biology teachers to present evolution to their pupils in spite of religiously motivated opposition. Now, however, Landy was addressing Bobby Jindal—the governor of the state of Louisiana—on whose desk the latest antievolution bill, the so-called Louisiana Science Education Act, was sitting, awaiting his signature.

Remembering Jindal as a good student in his genetics class, Landy hoped that the governor would recall the scientific importance of evolution to biology and medicine. Joining Landy in his opposition to the bill were the American Institute of Biological Sciences, which warned that “Louisiana will undoubtedly be thrust into the national spotlight as a state that pursues politics over science and education,” and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which told Jindal that the law would “unleash an assault against scientific integrity.” Earlier, the National Association of Biology Teachers had urged the legislature to defeat the bill, pleading “that the state of Louisiana not allow its science curriculum to be weakened by encouraging the utilization of supplemental materials produced for the sole purpose of confusing students about the nature of science.”

But all these protests were of no avail. On June 26, 2008, the governor’s office announced that Jindal had signed the Louisiana Science Education Act into law. Why all the fuss? On its face, the law looks innocuous: it directs the state board of education to “allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied,” which includes providing “support and guidance for teachers regarding effective ways to help students understand, analyze, critique, and objectively review scientific theories being studied.” What’s not to like? Aren’t critical thinking, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion exactly what science education aims to promote?

As always in the contentious history of evolution education in the U.S., the devil is in the details. The law explicitly targets evolution, which is unsurprising—for lurking in the background of the law is creationism, the rejection of a scientific explanation of the history of life in favor of a supernatural account involving a personal creator. Indeed, to mutate Dobzhansky’s dictum, nothing about the Louisiana law makes sense except in the light of creationism.

Read the whole thing…

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1027 comments

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1 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:00:54pm

Have the pictures always popped up when you put the mouse over them...or is that new?

2 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:01:26pm

Looks like God as asking Adam for a hand.

3 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:01:57pm

re: #2 bosforus

Looks like God as asking Adam for a hand.

Get me outta here!

4 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:02:34pm

BTW: I still don't get that picture.

5 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:03:13pm

Remembering Jindal as a good student in his genetics class, Landy hoped that the governor would recall the scientific importance of evolution to biology and medicine.

Is BJ that forgetful or is something else going on?

6 scott in east bay  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:08:01pm

The really sad thing about all this is that when these kids are subjected to this crap, they do not learn true science.

They get to college, and find that they know nothing. They don't understand the basic forces of evolution and how they have structured the evolution of life in all its forms. They also don't understand the biochemistry of life, evolutionary morphology, etc. When they enroll in college-level science classes, they are hopelessly lost and unprepared.

I have a couple of friends who teach biology and chemistry in college. They deal with these kids all the time. It's always so sad to see the kids struggling with basic stuff they should have learned in 9th grade.

7 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:08:13pm

Circular fog rainbow on the Towercam!

(It may not last long.)

8 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:10:46pm

re: #7 Ojoe

Thanks.
That's beautiful.

9 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:10:58pm
10 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:13:08pm

re: #9 Iron Fist
I agree.
I am exposed to many children, some home schooled but most in public schools.
The public schools are a disgrace.
But the ''be true to your school,'' sentiment is very strong (almost gang-like).

11 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:13:16pm

re: #8 mean Gene

God created it too, just like the mechanism of evolution also.

12 ted  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:13:18pm

As the cancer of PC Multiculturalism slowly creeps through our society, do not expect to be left uninfected.

13 ted  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:14:33pm

re: #12 ted

As the cancer of PC Multiculturalism slowly creeps through our society, do not expect to be left uninfected.

PIMF:

Science

14 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:14:34pm

Well then, ME would step forward and arm the students with logic, reason and intellectual curiosity and RIP creationism every time anyone tried to bring it up in school, USING this law against itself and the ignorance it seeks to instill in American students!

15 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:14:45pm

re: #7 Ojoe

Nice!

16 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:15:19pm

re: #11 Ojoe

I know.
I remember my first chemistry set having a refracting crystal in it.
Rainbow experiments through every light source I had soon followed.

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:15:20pm
“Louisiana will undoubtedly be thrust into the national spotlight as a state that pursues politics over science and education,”

And it's precisely this that will hurt the children of Louisiana the most, with the tax payer close behind, as they will pay for the inevitable lawsuit.

For those of you that think Jindal would be a good selection, think on this: that in Alaska, Palin put her person opinions aside and did was was right and constitutional by the people. In Louisiana, Jindal did the exact opposite.

18 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:15:32pm

re: #15 Racer X

Thank you.

And why would anyone have snitty arguments when the world is so beautiful?

19 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:15:33pm

The Creationism promoters are getting more sly in sneaking in their agenda. They know it's hard to make a frontal assault on science by trying to push creationism in the classroom directly, so sneak it some creationism text books and recommend them as a alternate source. Then maybe something from the creationism museum showing he dinosaurs marching two by two onto the ark.

20 DEZes  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:15:41pm

re: #7 Ojoe

Circular fog rainbow on the Towercam!

(It may not last long.)


Awesome!

21 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:15:47pm

Anyone that believes in Creation is stupid!

22 debutaunt  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:16:47pm

re: #1 WrathofG-d

Have the pictures always popped up when you put the mouse over them...or is that new?

It kind of evolved.

23 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:16:59pm

re: #19 avanti

That's just silly.
If dinosaurs had gotten onto the ark we'd have had them around until more recently.

24 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:17:00pm

re: #6 scott in east bay

Seven up-dings, Scott...

25 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:17:22pm

re: #22 debutaunt

LOL!

26 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:18:01pm

re: #9 Iron Fist

This isn't about the rest of our educational problems- it about science education. But what happens when laws like this end up allow something like Holocaust revisionism into history class? pat buchanan as supplemental material.

We need less politics in education not more.

27 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:19:02pm

re: #17 Sharmuta

And it's precisely this that will hurt the children of Louisiana the most, with the tax payer close behind, as they will pay for the inevitable lawsuit.

For those of you that think Jindal would be a good selection, think on this: that in Alaska, Palin put her person opinions aside and did was was right and constitutional by the people. In Louisiana, Jindal did the exact opposite.

Just wait for the lawsuit from CAIR to teach their creationism!

28 chsw3719  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:19:08pm

Whenever someone mentions creationism to me, I tell them that of course Ganesha separated the waters and the firmament by interposing his body amidst the current of the prehistoric sea. When they pick their jaws back up (because they usually never knew that there is more than one creation story in circulation), I then tell them that if they really look through the two separate creation accounts in Genesis, they would see enough vagueries so that evolution does not necessarily conflict with a deity-driven world. They usually change the subject after that.

chsw

29 rightside  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:19:24pm

re: #1 WrathofG-d

I don't think so, I think it's an easter egg Charles inserted into the code, and the first one to find it gets a bible or something..lol

30 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:19:41pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

*WHACK*

31 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:20:35pm

re: #28 chsw3719

DON'T CONFUSE ME with the facts, my mind's made up!

32 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:21:36pm
33 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:22:59pm

Scientific American also will give one a gorgeous expose on climate change, complete with glowing assumptions that the discussion is over. Case closed.

While I do understand the concern re creationism, this source (SciAm) may be more interested in bashing Jindal and the braindead right than in actual science.

34 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:23:33pm

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

LMAO!

/How you, Buzz? My medullary musings reaching you?

35 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:24:25pm

re: #33 Sunlight

This has nothing to do with AGW.

36 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:24:34pm

re: #23 mean Gene

That's just silly.
If dinosaurs had gotten onto the ark we'd have had them around until more recently.


` Here's a cute coloring book that explains it all, it may show up in a school soon.

Ark

37 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:24:50pm
39 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:26:05pm

re: #36 avanti

When that coloring book shows up in public schools, they'll also hand out crayons for the adults, right? For the dumbing-down of erstwhile 'adults'?

40 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:26:07pm

re: #22 debutaunt

That is what I believe too. It was a result of pure evolution

41 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:26:25pm

This topic has been clubbed to death.

/

42 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:26:46pm

Did you forget a sarc tag or what upthread there Wrath?

43 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:26:47pm

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

I just got here... hadn't caught them...

Thnx!

44 wolfie  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:26:50pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

There's nothing today to prevent rotten materials, whether texts or supplementary, from being used in classrooms unless they express a theistic viewpoint. This is why the use of such things goes on unimpeded wherever parents and taxpayers are not vigilant...which is a lot of places.

At least with the "creationist" attempts, there is recourse to the courts, which so far have foiled the movement entirely.

45 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:28:14pm

re: #9 Iron Fist

Well, they aren't exactly learning reading or basic math in public schools, either. I think that teachers unions are more responsible for that than creationists.

But at least the schools aren't flat-out lying to them. Kids may not learn even their times tables (something one sees now in college from time to time) but they don't argue afterwards that they learned in school at Mrs. Dirge's desk that 7 times 9 is 65, and they can't point to their high school textbook where it says right there that although some people say it's 63, there's a controversy and the traditional value is 65.

46 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:28:37pm

Sunlight, whether they have an axe to grind or not, facts are facts in this scenario. Jindal did sign that bill. Some might excuse him by saying he was paying off the conservative north in his state, but once you climb into bed with strange bed fellows it makes it hard for anyone to trust you later.

47 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:30:12pm
48 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:31:59pm

Sharmuta: we lost the war over facts in history classes long ago with Deconstructionism. It's time to get a new front going in that arena too. If they taught empirical history class -- one that was mostly factual, I think students would be a lot better off.
Instead they teach only the negative nuggets of US history nowadays it seems.

49 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:32:13pm
50 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:33:10pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

Someone forget a Sarc tag?

51 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:33:13pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

Anyone that believes in Creation is stupid!

You're such a rabble rouser.

52 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:33:15pm

re: #47 Ojoe

Did you see this one?

53 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:33:49pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

You dinged me UP?

54 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:34:07pm
55 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:34:27pm

re: #45 lostlakehiker

But some schools don't count them down for getting it wrong, either.
Math and even spelling are not ''absolutes,'' anymore, according to many teachers.

56 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:34:28pm

re: #52 Racer X

Perfect for this thread

57 wolfie  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:34:37pm

re: #45 lostlakehiker

You haven't read many modern history textbooks, have you?

58 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:35:16pm
59 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:36:10pm

re: #54 Ojoe

Oooo!
That is so cool!
(In fact it almost looks as cold as our temp here at the beach! Chilly!)

60 Langley  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:36:43pm

We home school our children with a group of Christians in Kailua. Some of us are evolutionists others are creationists. We had to come to an understanding on how to teach biology to our children. We compromised. We teach them that Man was made in the Lord's image and that Women evolved from a lower species. It works for us guys.

61 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:02pm

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

We will all bare inspection here

62 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:12pm

creationism is starting w/ redoing the basic scientific theory of how life evolved.
it is very possible that creationism will color all areas of scientific endeavor if it erodes what we know abt. evolution.
this is what is going on in islam. science gives way to gibberish in the koran.
there can be no science under such circumstances.
that's the problem w/ religion tugging on science's coat sleeves.
it could eventually dictate what scientific investigation ultimately means.
i think that is the fear of intelligent design coming into the science class.

63 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:15pm

re: #48 Thanos

Sharmuta: we lost the war over facts in history classes long ago with Deconstructionism. It's time to get a new front going in that arena too. If they taught empirical history class -- one that was mostly factual, I think students would be a lot better off.
Instead they teach only the negative nuggets of US history nowadays it seems.

All the more reason to oppose legislation that would allow the situation to be made worse, whether science, history or any other subject. How about lolcats as supplemental material for English class?

Everyone wants to complain about the state of our education on these threads, and I doubt anyone here would argue our education system is fine and dandy. But that's not the issue here. We are specifically discussing science education.

As I've said before- teaching our children the scientific method is what may very well help education in that we give our kids the tools to observe and deduce logically. Our kids desperately need these skills.

64 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:44pm

re: #46 Thanos

Sunlight, whether they have an axe to grind or not, facts are facts in this scenario. Jindal did sign that bill. Some might excuse him by saying he was paying off the conservative north in his state, but once you climb into bed with strange bed fellows it makes it hard for anyone to trust you later.

You're right, of course. I've grown disillusioned with what was once my favorite magazine. While I know every publication has a reasonable article now and then, I don't quote them anymore. When did they do a big expose naming names on the topic of people starving because of corn being used for "green biofuels"? That is way worse than any creationist cases. I'll have to search their archives to see if they've captured that gem.

65 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:46pm

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

Holy Moley! You ONE prolific dude...

I got the Wenceslas Redux and God Bless You Fairy Gentle-Bots, couldn't find more...

66 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:52pm
The enactment of the Louisiana Science Education Act, and the prospect of similar legislation in the future, confirms Darwin’s assessment of the power of steady misrepresentation. But because the passage of such antievolution bills ultimately results from politics rather than science, it will not be the progress of science that ensures their failure to endure. Rather it will take the efforts of citizens who are willing to take a stand and defend the uncompromised teaching of evolution.


Bravo!

67 wolfie  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:37:58pm

re: #55 mean Gene

You wouldn't want to spoil the little darlings' creativity, would you?

/

68 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:38:46pm

re: #60 Langley

Are you fucking serious?

69 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:38:52pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

Anyone that believes in Creation is stupid!

That's objectively false. There have to be several chess masters who believe in Creation, and considering the strength of the scientific evidence for the Big Bang, belief in Creation hardly flies in the face of the available scientific evidence. But if you restrict the discussion to belief in direct creation, type by type, of all the extant species, then there are still the millions of smart but narrowly educated folk who never really heard the case for evolution, and may be ignorant on the topic, and stubbornly uninterested in hearing about it, but smart as a whip at other things.

There are even some guys, for instance Ben Stein or Michael Behe, who have had the subject on their mind for years, and are bright enough that if they'd give the evidence a fair hearing they'd surely understand it, but they play to a different public and they'll be damned if they'll admit, even to themselves, that they're wrong.

There's a big difference between wrong and stupid. Lots of smart people are wrong about lots of things. Lots of people who aren't much gifted with ready wit and don't score very high on IQ tests are right about how to live life, good of character and good at their work. That has to count for something, and it's something that any number of smart people have gotten wrong.

Being right, consistently, is harder than generally realized.

71 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:38:57pm

re: #60 Langley

Not funny.

72 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:39:01pm
73 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:39:31pm

re: #67 wolfie

You wouldn't want to spoil the little darlings' creativity, would you?

/

More like impose my cultural relativism on them.
Is it only me who thinks the dictionary is the final word on spelling instead of a jumping off point?

74 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:39:58pm

re: #14 Karridine

Well then, ME would step forward and arm the students with logic, reason and intellectual curiosity and RIP creationism every time anyone tried to bring it up in school, USING this law against itself and the ignorance it seeks to instill in American students!

Good catch, Karridine! If one were to actually use this law to instill a process of critical thinking in the students, then they would become impervious to the nonsense that is Intelligent Design.

I suppose it all depends upon exactly how the law is worded, and how it survives the inevitable court challenge. It would be deliciously ironic if a court challenge were mounted by the ID-bots after witnessing a teacher use the "critical thinking" provision to demolish ID in a classroom.

75 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:40:06pm

re: #60 Langley

You're kidding right?

76 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:40:11pm

re: #70 Ojoe

The 10,000 ft. peaks in the distance are about to light up rose.

Get a screen shot of the Emerald Flash if you really want to impress me.

77 pjaicomo  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:40:35pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

Anyone that believes in Creation [as science] is stupid!

Bingo. Now you are getting it. What took so long?

78 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:40:48pm

re: #76 bosforus

We are looking 180 degrees away from that.

79 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:41:02pm
80 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:41:05pm

re: #42 Thanos

Thursday is my get-along, and fit-in day.

81 wolfie  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:41:22pm

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

I especially like the Al Gore one! Really fits w/ the original GKWencelaus theme. :)

82 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:42:06pm

re: #64 Sunlight

The reception I got with my articles on that was that I was a nutball denialist because Discovery institute is poisoning the waters of the debate. The problem's never been "does AGW exist" but rather does it matter enough to base public policy on especially since about zero contrary studies have been funded.

83 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:42:14pm

re: #60 Langley

We teach them that Man was made in the Lord's image and that Women evolved from a lower species. It works for us guys.

When God finds out, She is going to be pissed!

84 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:42:18pm

re: #72 buzzsawmonkey

I saw, I copied, I guffawed...

/wish I could rent the recording studio and a backup band for a day or two...

Doo-wahp pretty good, all of them show spark!

85 wolfie  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:42:33pm

re: #73 mean Gene

BIGOT !

///

86 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:43:36pm

re: #85 wolfie

Yeah.
And years of Scrabble playing.

87 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:43:47pm

re: #78 Ojoe

We are looking 180 degrees away from that.

Ah nuts. Well, guess I'll just have to do my own dirty work.

88 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:44:03pm

Once read a challenge offering some serious money to any
creationism group to lay out the volume of the ark, load it with only 10% of the species on the planet, needed food and water for the journey and get 10 million or whatever.
The general response was that God made the impossible possible. You can not disprove faith with science, the super natural will always trump it. You can teach science, but faith should be learned at home and the church if you so choose.

89 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:44:20pm

re: #55 mean Gene

But some schools don't count them down for getting it wrong, either.
Math and even spelling are not ''absolutes,'' anymore, according to many teachers.

Spelling isn't an objective absolute. If enough people come to believe that "dire straits" is spelled "dire straights", that becomes the new correct spelling.

It would be a comfort if more schools had more teachers who would be comfortable explaining, impromptu, just exactly why 7 times 9 is 63, and why even without any careful reckoning, it's impossible at a glance that the answer cannot be 65. But that will require two things: merit pay to draw in talent, and higher pay in general so that the merit pay system doesn't become a zero-sum game and provoke too much resistance. [No matter how talented a team you assemble for your schools, a good half of that team will be at or below the team average.]

90 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:44:38pm
one of the expert witnesses in the trial, biochemist Michael Behe, testified that no articles have been published in the scientific research literature that “provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred”—and he was testifying in defense of the school board’s policy.

I think this is a point that's forgotten by some of the Lizards who may not follow these threads as closely as others.

ID has nothing- nothing! Their own people admit this.

91 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:44:45pm

re: #74 Alberta Oil Peon

THAT'S our strength, Peon! Use logic and reason, in passionate defense of reality, and use it repeatedly for the good of all...

Neither creationists nor Islamists can long withstand THAT!

92 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:44:45pm

re: #87 bosforus

The green flash appears more often in the tropics.
You can see it at sunrise and sunset both.

93 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:44:59pm

re: #74 Alberta Oil Peon

Good catch, Karridine! If one were to actually use this law to instill a process of critical thinking in the students, then they would become impervious to the nonsense that is Intelligent Design.

I suppose it all depends upon exactly how the law is worded, and how it survives the inevitable court challenge. It would be deliciously ironic if a court challenge were mounted by the ID-bots after witnessing a teacher use the "critical thinking" provision to demolish ID in a classroom.

When the attempt was made to foist off this crapola here in Florida, the scientific and educational communities got together, dogged their legislators, and morphed the bill into something that not only forbade the teaching of creationism and ID in public high school science classes, but required the teaching of evolution there.

My state did good. They made me proud.

94 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:45:02pm

re: #80 WrathofG-d

Thursday is my get-along, and fit-in day.

:) haha it's mine too since I just got off work for Christmas vacation.

95 Langley  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:45:23pm

Sharmuta - It was a joke about GUYS (all the feminists at my university think I am cute).

Racer X - I am kidding about what we teach, not about our differences.

Our home school group agrees to disagree about the creation of the universe.

It works very well for us.

96 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:46:34pm
97 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:46:39pm

re: #92 Ojoe

Very helpful info. Had no clue about the tropics. Guess I won't be seeing it in Utah anytime soon.

98 debutaunt  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:46:41pm

re: #92 Ojoe

The green flash appears more often in the tropics.
You can see it at sunrise and sunset both.

The fog really jumped up!

99 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:46:56pm

re: #95 Langley

Just how is saying that women are from a lower species a knock against men?

100 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:47:05pm

re: #95 Langley

O/T, but how does Langley not have an avatar or football?

101 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:47:14pm

re: #9 Iron Fist

Well, they aren't exactly learning reading or basic math in public schools, either. I think that teachers unions are more responsible for that than creationists.

When my service dog was alive and I was traveling a lot we would walk in cemeteries across the U.S. - he got exercise - I got awe.

One in Maine has an exceptional monument standing out amongst all the rest. Instead of a simple headstone - this was huge with an obelisk 30-40 ft. high rising from it's center.

Intrigued I went to see what was so special ... the person had died in the early 1800s iirc and the monument was dedicated to a schoolmaster who had obviously taught his students well for they had paid for it - as profoundly successful businessmen using what they had been taught by him.

I would have loved to have been in his classroom or known what he imparted to these folks.

There is a test on the internet about what kids had to pass back in the late 1800s.

[Link: mwhodges.home.att.net...]


I don't think teachers unions were around then.

102 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:47:49pm

re: #97 bosforus

You see it over the horizon of the sea.

103 Cicero05  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:48:15pm

re: #79 Iron Fist

No, but they will also wind up believing in Anthropomorphic Global Warming, and the importance of recycling.

If Al Gore was more human-like, he'd be a perfect example of Anthropomorphic Global Warming.

104 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:48:53pm
105 Quintus_Arius  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:49:08pm

Science and theology are not mutually exclusive. I think I could get that across to my favorite fifth graders. This ongoing topic has a curious agenda.

Just what is it?

106 rightside  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:49:45pm

re: #100 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

It's evolving too...

107 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:49:58pm

The dinosaurs died of starvation after all of their money was stolen in a ponzi scheme.

108 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:50:08pm

re: #88 avanti

The general response was that God made the impossible possible.

And THIS is what disallows Creationism-as-Science... there is NO WAY to test any assertion, Creationist or Flying-Skapetti-Monster or Zulu-Bantu or 'scientific' if one only arrives at 'God Makes It So, Somehow....'

/why is hot? God Makes It So, Somehow...
why does water expand when it freezes? God Makes It So, Somehow...
why do flowers have pollen? God Makes It So, Somehow...
why are Creationists brain-dead? God Makes It So, Somehow...

109 joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:50:33pm

re: #21 WrathofG-d

Anyone that believes in Creation is stupid!

/sarc?

I believe in Creation. This religious belief can never be proved by the scientific method. Therefore, it has no place in science education. Science must teach what the scientific method can examine and prove. Science must deal in observable, testable phenomena. Evidence based on that method is how science develops research and forms hypotheses. How can it be otherwise?

The existence and activity of a Creator, whether conceived as Transcendent Author the universe, or as a primordial gestalt, can be approached with faith and reason, speculated upon by contemplation of the material world and the laws that govern the universe. However, inferences drawn from that exercise cannot and should not be taught as science.

Inference, intuition, faith, contemplation--that is the language of religion not science. Science will work with the proper tools of the scientific method, and it will be protected from ideology and theology by that approach.

Otherwise, how will we ever avoid a Babel of numinous irrelevancies from poisoning the well of scientific inquiry?

Will my transcendent Creator prevail in the classroom? Or, will the Thetans of L. Ron Hubbard, or the sentient energy field of the planet, the Gaia, or will a pantheon of gods prevail--but whose pantheon? Will we go with Zeus, or Pele, or stay contemporary with Dylan Thomas and the force which through the green fuse drives the flower?

Science is what it is. It is not theology, it is not philosophy, it is not metaphysics.

110 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:50:34pm

re: #107 experiencedtraveller

ROFLMAO

111 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:51:02pm

...and to think Rap music evolved from this...

Maybe we should use the word "Devolved" since humans started as non-eating self sustaining organisms, that now rely on specific opening in our skin, food, water, sun, and pooping. We were more advanced to living as single cell organisms.

112 bosforus  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:51:22pm

This could very well be my last comment before next year (or at least one of my last). So...enjoy the holidays, Merry Christmas, be safe, Happy New Year, Happy Chanukah, and all that jazz! It's just too bad nothing really eventful happened. Oh wait, unless you count graduation, marriage, first "real job", two moves, and a presidential election.
See ya!

113 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:52:08pm

re: #100 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

Good question. I just refreshed and he still doesn't have one. Weird.

114 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:53:10pm
115 Langley  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:53:13pm

MandyManners - it takes a GUY to have that inconsistency in his mind.

It takes someone looking to be hurt to see what they obviously believe (that people evolved from a lower species) as an insult.

116 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:53:23pm

re: #105 Quintus_Arius

Science and theology are not mutually exclusive. I think I could get that across to my favorite fifth graders. This ongoing topic has a curious agenda.

Just what is it?

Religion should be kept out of the classroom.

117 rightside  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:53:50pm

re: #113 Bubblehead II


I believe that is the icon...an image of a missing image.

118 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:54:00pm

re: #92 Ojoe

The green flash appears more often in the tropics.
You can see it at sunrise and sunset both.

I've seen it off the west coast of Florida.

119 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:54:17pm

re: #109 joan

Dozens of warm-fuzzy updings, Ma'am! :D

120 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:54:34pm
121 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:54:51pm

re: #115 Langley

Fuck you. You're on GAZE.

122 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:55:30pm

re: #69 lostlakehiker

There are even some guys, for instance Ben Stein or Michael Behe, who have had the subject on their mind for years, and are bright enough that if they'd give the evidence a fair hearing they'd surely understand it, but they play to a different public and they'll be damned if they'll admit, even to themselves, that they're wrong.

There's a big difference between wrong and stupid.

Ben Stein and Behe are smart enough to understand the evidence but they choose not to. Ben Stein knows scientists don't believe that life spontaneously popped up from lightening striking a mud puddle but he repeats the talking point anyways. There no doubt that this is an anti-intellectual movement very similar to the muslim philosopher Al Ghazali who believed Western reason and logic were flawed because they didn't account for the divinity of Allah. Their ignorance is intentional and requires effort.

123 wolfie  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:55:39pm

re: #89 lostlakehiker

Sounds good to me, except for the fact that the substantial increase in teacher's pay since 1965 has not correlated with an increase in students' learning. (That's putting it kindly.)
You can pay teachers all the money in the world and it won't help if (1) they themselves are poorly educated in REAL subject matter, (2) they are forced to use stupid materials and methods by educationists, (3) educationists from the NEA are far more interested in "social justice" activism than pedagogy, and (4) neither the administration nor parents allow proper discipline in the schools.

124 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:56:42pm

re: #114 Ojoe

The sun has set on the San Gabriel Mountains of California. Towercam, Pacific time zone.

See you probably tomorrow.

I'm simply amazed at how much that view can change over two minutes. It must be really windy up there because one minute there are clouds covering the top of the mountain and the next they are laying low in the valley.

125 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:56:42pm

re: #111 WrathofG-d

Thanks for the golf link over on the Hamas thread. See? they only have the two, of which one (which was already fabulous) was closed for re-doing this year. There are lots and lots of dry country golf courses in the southwest U.S. that could be an example for Israel.

126 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:56:59pm

re: #104 Iron Fist

No, I think that there's a hell of a lot of question about whether or not humans are affecting the climate at all. The temperature of the world has never been a constant. It has always been changing. Some times it is going up, other times it is going down. This was happening a long time before humans even entered into the question.

Global Warmists don't act like they really believe the bullshit they are spreading. Look at Al Gore's energy consumption. Do you really believe that he believes that the planet will go to hell in a handbasket if we don't destroy the American economy to save it?

Ironfist, I agree that there's definitely an agenda in the pseudo-scientific political pandering of global warming. But I also do know that we also affect the climate to some small degree, and I knew that before "global warming" was even a buzz word. The Greenhouse effect has been studied and confirmed for several decades.

127 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:58:00pm

Remember when we first started having these debates here? What happened to all the talking points? "It's just a theory", etc...
The creationists figured out that these talking points only work with fellow creationists to reinforce their flawed world view. They don't hold up to scrutiny.

128 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:58:14pm

re: #105 Quintus_Arius

Science and theology are not mutually exclusive. I think I could get that across to my favorite fifth graders. This ongoing topic has a curious agenda.

Just what is it?

If you teach a public high school science class, and are mixing science and theology in it, the agenda is to get you to stop doing so, and only teach science in science class.

Theology inhabits the realm of belief, and embraces untestable dogmas as articles of faith, while science inhabits the realm of knowledge, and accepts empirical evidence for contentions. They thus inhabit different domains, and only come into conflict when one domain poaces in the other domain's territory, with the poacher losing out. The politically motivated drive to force the teaching of creationism and ID in public high school science classes is just such an attempt by imperialist hegemonic religionists to poach in science's territory.

129 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:58:40pm
From the Scopes era onward, creationists have simultaneously employed three central rhetorical themes, sometimes called the three pillars of creationism, to attack evolution: that evolution is unsupported by or actually in conflict with the facts of science; that teaching evolution threatens religion, morality and society; and that fairness dictates the necessity of teaching creationism alongside evolution. The fallback strategy amounts to substituting for creationism the scientifically unwarranted claim that evolution is a theory in crisis.

1) "that evolution is unsupported by or actually in conflict with the facts of science" could simply be less untrue. The first hard proof of the theory was found a year after Darwin published "Origins" and has only grown in 150 years.

2) "that teaching evolution threatens religion, morality and society" is again simply not true. There are many things that one could argue effectively that are harming morality and society, such as moral relativism, but evolution is not one of them.

3) "and that fairness dictates the necessity of teaching creationism alongside evolution" is the most absurd of all. Facts are neither fair nor unfair. They are what they are. And the facts supporting evolution are numerous, as is the fact that creationism violates the Constitution.

130 debutaunt  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:58:45pm

re: #124 Racer X

I'm simply amazed at how much that view can change over two minutes. It must be really windy up there because one minute there are clouds covering the top of the mountain and the next they are laying low in the valley.

Faux fog!

131 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:59:00pm

re: #125 Sunlight

Thanks for the golf link over on the Hamas thread. See? they only have the two, of which one (which was already fabulous) was closed for re-doing this year. There are lots and lots of dry country golf courses in the southwest U.S. that could be an example for Israel.

Israel has MAJOR water issues. They shouldn't be building golf courses.

132 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 4:59:21pm

re: #117 rightside

Good catch. It's there, just not showing up.

Langley

Karma: -3
Registered since: May 28, 2006 at 2:03 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 7
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

Topic: The Latest Face of Creationism in the Classroom
Comment #: 95

Something smells

133 VMA211Dan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:01:06pm

I'm having problems with lgf loading. Can anyone help? I recently moved to Orlando(I know...boo-hoo). I'm using IE7, broadband roadrunner, and have CA security.

134 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:01:31pm

re: #133 VMA211Dan

Did you update your IE security flaw?

135 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:01:35pm

re: #120 Iron Fist

Sadly - true.

BTW - I can't pass the 8th grade test of 1895.

Any takers think they can?

[Link: mwhodges.home.att.net...]

136 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:01:57pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Remember when we first started having these debates here? What happened to all the talking points? "It's just a theory", etc...
The creationists figured out that these talking points only work with fellow creationists to reinforce their flawed world view. They don't hold up to scrutiny.

No, I think many realized that they would be mocked, criticized, and threatened for voicing those beliefs. I for one, still believe evolution is nothing more than a theory, very similar to faith, but have stopped voicing any opinion on these subjects for the most part because there is no purpose. I have not seen one person change their opinion on this subject. The fact that the blog-owner jumps in against that belief (which of course ensures further unnecessary rude, and personal attacks, and ridicule by the sycophants of LGF) doesn't really encourage voicing that opinion much either.

137 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:01:57pm

re: #133 VMA211Dan

One word.

Firefox.

138 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:02:34pm

re: #133 VMA211Dan

IE7 might be your problem. Try Firefox.

139 rightside  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:03:03pm

re: #133 VMA211Dan

I'm having problems with lgf loading. Can anyone help? I recently moved to Orlando(I know...boo-hoo). I'm using IE7, broadband roadrunner, and have CA security.

There's your problem.

140 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:03:14pm

re: #131 WrathofG-d

Israel has MAJOR water issues. They shouldn't be building golf courses.

Near the coast. Desalination (solar powered). High tech irrigation. Bring in water systems people from the U.S. and have them golf and look at the tech. Sell the tech for use along the CA coast, gulf coast, east coast, etc. so that those of us in the middle can keep our limited water supply here rather than pumping it to the CA coast. It's a marketing plan.

141 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:03:39pm
142 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:04:26pm

re: #136 WrathofG-d

No, I think many realized that they would be mocked, criticized, and threatened for voicing those beliefs. I for one, still believe evolution is nothing more than a theory, very similar to faith, but have stopped voicing any opinion on these subjects for the most part because there is no purpose. I have not seen one person change their opinion on this subject. The fact that the blog-owner jumps in against that belief (which of course ensures further unnecessary rude, and personal attacks, and ridicule by the sycophants of LGF) doesn't really encourage voicing that opinion much either.

The difference between scientific theories and religions faith is the presence or absence of empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory has it - in spades; creationism and ID don't have it at all.

143 rightside  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:05:12pm

re: #133 VMA211Dan


...and Semper Fi!

144 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:05:15pm

re: #140 Sunlight

I hope they can figure something out. But as far as I know, desalination has not been very cost effective. But I know NOTHING about these things...so I should probably stop before I say something stupid.

146 mean Gene  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:05:39pm

re: #132 Bubblehead II

Before you posted this I just thought the thread had been so collegial and -I don't know- Senate-like?
But then, whoops!
I hope we can rise to a higher level again now that that's cleared up.

147 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:05:51pm

re: #142 Salamantis

You fit into the "will never change your mind" category. But you are wrong that faith cannot be proven. You all just refuse to accept the proof.

148 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:05:52pm

re: #136 WrathofG-d

The talking points don't hold up to scrutiny. I think most people saw the debate played out enough times that they know they are going to lose. It's like debating truthers, if you defeat them enough times they get embarrassed and stop trying.

149 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:06:10pm

re: #136 WrathofG-d

First of all- I was one whose opinion was changed, and I know I'm not alone.

Second- you are the one being rude.

150 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:06:51pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

I can only speak for myself, and I did.

I think you are trying to use the berating down of moron (the ID supporters) to prove the truth to your argument. I don't think anyone here has done such.

151 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:07:19pm

re: #149 Sharmuta

First of all- I was one whose opinion was changed, and I know I'm not alone.

Second- you are the one being rude.

Ms. "FUCK YOU" and "WHACK" is about to lecture me about being rude?

152 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:07:42pm

Replay of Mark Steyn on Hugh Hewitt. Upper left.

153 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:07:49pm

re: #151 WrathofG-d

I'm not Mandy.

154 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:07:55pm
155 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:08:00pm

re: #151 WrathofG-d

Ms. "FUCK YOU" and "WHACK" is about to lecture me about being rude?

That would be Mandy, not Sharmuta, and you're just proving her point.

Second - my opinion was changed by LGF too.

156 VMA211Dan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:08:02pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Did you update your IE security flaw?

I always get automatic updates and some were for IE7 security updates. Do I have to get a special one? Help with link?
I have to go to "front page" to get comments to take or update "new comments".

157 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:08:04pm

re: #152 HelloDare

Replay of Mark Steyn on Hugh Hewitt. Upper left.

On right now.

158 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:08:07pm

re: #151 WrathofG-d

Ms. "FUCK YOU" and "WHACK" is about to lecture me about being rude?

Ummm...I'm not Sharmuta.

159 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:09:34pm
160 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:09:48pm

re: #147 WrathofG-d

You fit into the "will never change your mind" category. But you are wrong that faith cannot be proven. You all just refuse to accept the proof.

I would readily change my mind on evolutionary theory to whatever the empirical evidence led me. It is the dogmatically religious, such as the Young Earth Creationist Genesis Literalists, who perversely maintain their embrace of the demonstrably untrue in the face of vast and irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

And the existence or non-existence of the supernatural can never be proven by natural means.

161 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:09:56pm

re: #156 VMA211Dan

The solution is as easy as downloading another browser. IE sucks.

162 VMA211Dan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:11:16pm

re: #143 rightside

...and Semper Fi!

And Semper Fi back at you. From your avatar you are Navy. Thank you for your service also.

163 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:11:24pm

re: #150 WrathofG-d

We've already had two people chime in and say they listened to the debate and changed their minds. It happens. When these creationist talking points were repeatedly shot down, time and time again people start to notice. You may be too emotionally invested to notice but others do.

164 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:11:28pm

re: #158 MandyManners

re: #153 Sharmuta

You are both correct. I got it confused. I apologize to both of you.

165 2by2  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:12:07pm

..and here is the game for the thread

166 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:12:11pm

re: #164 WrathofG-d

'Sokay.

167 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:13:52pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's ask them HOW they changed their minds. I should have been more precise. Instead of my "noone has changed their minds" I should have more accurately pointed out that "noone has changed their minds towards the Creation theory perspective."

168 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:14:03pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

What did it for me was Charles linking to the Wedge Strategy. I read it and came back to say I didn't know much about science but I knew proselytizing when I saw it. It was never that I rejected evolution by the way, I just didn't see the problem with ID, which I obviously do now.

169 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:14:08pm

re: #135 Bobibutu

I've always been suspicious of that test's supposed grade level. It first surfaced in 2000 in the Salina paper, but ... it made the email rounds immediately from Bircher and Lew Rockwell like sites. No other 8th grade school tests from 1895 from other schools have been found that seem comparable, however several tests for teachers themselves that are similar have been discovered. I'm not willing to say it's untrue, but I find it suspect.

170 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:14:15pm
171 fclass308  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:15:13pm

re: #111 WrathofG-d

Rap music is an oxymoron. :)

172 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:15:14pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

What did it for me was Charles linking to the Wedge Strategy. I read it and came back to say I didn't know much about science but I knew proselytizing when I saw it. It was never that I rejected evolution by the way, I just didn't see the problem with ID, which I obviously do now.

a wedge strategy? Like claiming its about teaching it in schools, but eventually leading everyone to discredit the theory of Creation in general?...then moving on to more bible stories, etc. That kind of wedge strategy?

173 nfamous  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:15:31pm

re: #91 Karridine

THAT'S our strength, Peon! Use logic and reason, in passionate defense of reality, and use it repeatedly for the good of all...

Neither creationists nor Islamists can long withstand THAT!

I find this offensive, given the vast divide between creationists (who I assume are Biblical ones in your statement...) and Islamists. True Biblical creationists believe that things happen for a reason, and that natural, God created laws are followed, and are consistent. Islamists believe that it happens because Allah willed it, and that can change.

It is because of this belief in consistent natural laws that makes teaching both creationism and evolution a non-issue, most of the time. 4 + 4 = 8 for the creationist and the evolutionist (but it may be 9 for the Muslim, if Allah wills it). The obvious disagreement is in the start of it all. That being said, both share in that neither can explain the exact 'how'.

How did the universe start? How did the first life come into being?

174 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:16:22pm

re: #167 WrathofG-d

I should have more accurately pointed out that "noone has changed their minds towards the Creation theory perspective."


Who's fault is that? The creationists have made a very poor case.

175 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:16:23pm

Ok, i'm going to convince no one, and I have to leave. Thanks always for the wonderful conversation, the jolly discussion, and keeping everything loverly!

176 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:17:13pm

re: #167 WrathofG-d

I have never been told Genesis was literal- not even by my grandfather, who got his PhD in education from seminary schools. I think the vast majority of people can agree that God's idea of a day could be radically different from ours. Only literalists seem to think otherwise.

What has your rabbi told you about it?

177 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:17:26pm

re: #167 WrathofG-d

whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's ask them HOW they changed their minds. I should have been more precise. Instead of my "noone has changed their minds" I should have more accurately pointed out that "noone has changed their minds towards the Creation theory perspective."

Nor should they. Creationism isn't a scientific theory. Theories are supported by empirical evidence. Creationism has none.

178 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:17:58pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Killgore, let's be honest here. (A) You are right. The cause here on LGF was led by morons for the most part. (B) If Charles were instead a Biblical Literalist, 80% or so on LGF would be professing their love for the Creation. To deny that group think, and the power of Charles on LGF, had anything to do with it is a bit naive. Is it all of it? No way! But we cannot ignore the obvious.

179 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:18:12pm

re: #146 mean Gene

Up to him/her. But hiding your avatar/football with a blank image strikes me as an attempt to avoid being called out as a troll or moby after dropping a stink bomb.

UPDATE! It now has a question mark for an avatar.

180 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:18:23pm

re: #169 Thanos

I've always been suspicious of that test's supposed grade level. It first surfaced in 2000 in the Salina paper, but ... it made the email rounds immediately from Bircher and Lew Rockwell like sites. No other 8th grade school tests from 1895 from other schools have been found that seem comparable, however several tests for teachers themselves that are similar have been discovered. I'm not willing to say it's untrue, but I find it suspect.

Fair enough - have you got links to the others? Just saying some kids in the early 1800s got one hell of a leg up thru their schoolmasters efforts.

181 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:18:34pm
182 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:18:51pm

re: #175 WrathofG-d

Bye, Wrath. Enjoyed the conversation.

183 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:19:34pm

re: #178 WrathofG-d

More insults! Yeah- we're all just sheeple who can't think for ourselves. Thankfully, we have Charles to tell us what to think, but you'd rather say it's the supporters of science that are insulting. Personally- I've found the creationists to be the more insulting ones, and you're backing up my point. Thanks.

184 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:20:02pm

re: #176 Sharmuta

For the most part, I was taught Jewishly by reform morons who called themselves Rabbis but didn't know jack about what they were talking about. I have yet to discuss this with my present Orthodox rabbi.

I have also yet to voice my personal opinion on whether or not the literal interpretation is correct. I have only gone as far as to state that it COULD be. My biggest grudge around here has not been with the facts but the attitude towards those that believe in the literal interpretation of the Torah/Bible.

185 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:20:38pm

re: #184 WrathofG-d

Why haven't you asked your rabbi? Afraid he'll tell you it's not literal?

186 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:20:45pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

What did it for me was Charles linking to the Wedge Strategy. I read it and came back to say I didn't know much about science but I knew proselytizing when I saw it. It was never that I rejected evolution by the way, I just didn't see the problem with ID, which I obviously do now.

Yep. I've cemented my stance against teaching theology in science class. This goes beyond theology, though. People who want to shove it into science class have not just that goal in mind.

187 Throbert McGee  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:20:49pm

re: #90 Sharmuta

Michael Behe testified that no articles have been published in the scientific research literature that ''provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred''

I think this is a point that's forgotten by some of the Lizards who may not follow these threads as closely as others.

ID has nothing- nothing! Their own people admit this.

Excellent catch, Sharmuta, but Michael Behe actually understated the case: Not only have ID proponents published no accounts of how the hypothesized "intelligent designer" went about designing life, but the question wouldn't even occur to most of them in the first place. And in fact, any serious attempt to answer that "how'd the designer do it?" question would likely offend a lot of ID proponents, because they'd prefer God's workings to be unknowable.

Arthur C. Clarke famously said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Throbert's corollary to that is: "Any sufficiently naturalistic magic would be indistinguishable from advanced technology."

So ID proponents have a tough choice: If they say that the "intelligent designer" was able to manipulate DNA by wiggling His nose à la Bewitched, or by any other "supernatural" means, then they're admitting that their whole purpose is to smuggle religion into the science classroom. But if they hypothesize that the "designer" might've used supercooled magnets and nano-scale robots and other science-y sounding whatnot to do His gene-building work, then they're reducing God to an extraterrestrial with really spiffy technology.

188 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:20:59pm

re: #182 Sunlight

Bye, Wrath. Enjoyed the conversation.

Always a pleasure. Its like the mafia. I keep trying to leave but...

189 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:21:09pm

re: #178 WrathofG-d

Killgore, let's be honest here. (A) You are right. The cause here on LGF was led by morons for the most part. (B) If Charles were instead a Biblical Literalist, 80% or so on LGF would be professing their love for the Creation. To deny that group think, and the power of Charles on LGF, had anything to do with it is a bit naive. Is it all of it? No way! But we cannot ignore the obvious.

I think a lot of us would just lay low, watching the electronic gun-fighting...

190 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:04pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

Always a pleasure. Its like the mafia. I keep trying to leave but...

Addictive!

191 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:09pm

re: #184 WrathofG-d

The Wedge Strategy. Read up on it, because these folks would like to get their hands on your children and "bring them to Jesus".

192 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:19pm

re: #172 WrathofG-d

a wedge strategy? Like claiming its about teaching it in schools, but eventually leading everyone to discredit the theory of Creation in general?...then moving on to more bible stories, etc. That kind of wedge strategy?

The literal reading of Genesis is empirically untrue. The universe, the earth, and the tens of millions of both existent and extinct species found within it were not independently and as is created in six days a few thousand years ago - period. That's just a simple fact, and one that cannot be credibly disputed. IDers are against people being apprised of that fact. They prefer that devout and pious ignorance be willfully maintained.

193 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:24pm

re: #178 WrathofG-d

Killgore, let's be honest here. (A) You are right. The cause here on LGF was led by morons for the most part. (B) If Charles were instead a Biblical Literalist, 80% or so on LGF would be professing their love for the Creation. To deny that group think, and the power of Charles on LGF, had anything to do with it is a bit naive. Is it all of it? No way! But we cannot ignore the obvious.

We're not lemmings! We have thoughts of our own. If I didn't agree with Charles for the most part, I wouldn't be here. But I never -- for a minute -- let anyone tell me what my opinion is.

194 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:32pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

More insults! Yeah- we're all just sheeple who can't think for ourselves. Thankfully, we have Charles to tell us what to think, but you'd rather say it's the supporters of science that are insulting. Personally- I've found the creationists to be the more insulting ones, and you're backing up my point. Thanks.

I NEVER stated that everyone that believed in Evolution was a sheeple. In fact, when I was typing that statement I surely didn't have you specifically in mind. Honestly, I didn't have any poster specifically in mind. It is interesting that you believed I was referring to you however.

195 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:52pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

Always a pleasure. Its like the mafia. I keep trying to leave but...

Why is everybody looking at me like that?
/

196 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:55pm

re: #172 WrathofG-d

a wedge strategy? Like claiming its about teaching it in schools, but eventually leading everyone to discredit the theory of Creation in general?...then moving on to more bible stories, etc. That kind of wedge strategy?

Creation is not a theory it's a belief, subject to human free will, neither proveable nor disprovable in other words. Anyone who says us feeble humans can prove or disprove creation at this point in our existance is likely to be yanking your chain.

197 fclass308  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:22:56pm

re: #181 Iron Fist

LOL...Hipness escapes me these days...especially when it comes to illiterate ghetto slugs with bad vocabularies, panty hose on their heads and a lack of ability to wear a hat or pants properly. :)

198 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:24:10pm
199 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:24:15pm

re: #197 fclass308

LOL...Hipness escapes me these days...especially when it comes to illiterate ghetto slugs with bad vocabularies, panty hose on their heads and a lack of ability to wear a hat or pants properly. :)

Word.
/

200 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:24:28pm

re: #191 Sharmuta

The Wedge Strategy. Read up on it, because these folks would like to get their hands on your children and "bring them to Jesus".

I think it's deeper than that. These folks seem to want power for power's sake.

201 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:24:34pm

re: #194 WrathofG-d

Where did I say you specifically talking about me? You said 80% of LGFers would agree with Charles is if was a creationist. That's just insulting to whoever you think that 80% is because you're saying we're drinking kool-aid and can't think for ourselves.

202 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:25:11pm

re: #185 Sharmuta

No. I would love to hear what my learned rabbi has to say on this subject. I would guess that he shares my personal leaning that the story is not "literal" as we take that word today, and the whole issue deals with TIME. (ie: a day is not = then to 24 hours)

This might be a surprise to you but I actually often suggest people read the book The Science Of G-d

You're emotionally shooting-from-the-hip and you have me pegged all wrong.

203 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:25:14pm

re: #178 WrathofG-d

Killgore, let's be honest here. (A) You are right. The cause here on LGF was led by morons for the most part. (B) If Charles were instead a Biblical Literalist, 80% or so on LGF would be professing their love for the Creation. To deny that group think, and the power of Charles on LGF, had anything to do with it is a bit naive. Is it all of it? No way! But we cannot ignore the obvious.

My positions do not depend upon Charles' approval. I have simply found, to my sheer delight, that he is quite rational and reasonable (definition: agrees with me - hehe) on most issues.

204 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:25:45pm

re: #170 buzzsawmonkey

We joke, and rightfully so, but others grow without devoting time and energy to learning what the Latin root or Greek root for a (currently-used word) is, and don't know when their soundalike oxymoron is demonstrating their ignorance...

I've seen it in a whole generation of Koreans, who were relieved of the 'burden' of learning 20,000 Chinese-characters which root-the-meaning for Korean words, and now just know the easily-learned phonetic form of those underlying meanings, often wrong or only thinly-correct...

The dumbing down of THOUGHT happens when their not dueing they're homework, not inspired to experience the joy of using there English-native language to its fullest, its richest, with all the depth and expanse of thought engendered BY such study...

/yes, their are some mistrakes intentionally inserted...

205 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:25:49pm

re: #196 Thanos

Creation is not a theory it's a belief, subject to human free will, neither proveable nor disprovable in other words. Anyone who says us feeble humans can prove or disprove creation at this point in our existance is likely to be yanking your chain.

Or hustling you for a buck or two.

206 fclass308  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:26:03pm

re: #199 VegasRick

I feel ya, dawg.

///

207 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:26:45pm

re: #187 Throbert McGee

I agree. It's also dangerous theologically in that it allows for an interventionist Creator and that opens up a lot of uncomfortable, possibly dangerous, questions.

208 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:26:48pm

Iowahawk has a new post.

SantaCorp Pleads Case For Bailout
"After the 1982 strike SantaCorp offered the UET a generous pension plan promising free lifetime candy canes and unicorns," explained Kessler. "It seemed like a good idea at the time, but the company accountants forgot to factor in elf immortality."

209 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:27:23pm

re: #202 WrathofG-d

I don't think I have you pegged wrong at all. It's not the first time you've insulted Charles and LGFers.

210 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:27:49pm

re: #198 Iron Fist

You can check out, but you can never leave...

You forgot to link The Eagles
Where's Mandy to whack you?

211 Learned Mother of Zion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:27:53pm

re: #172 WrathofG-d

a wedge strategy? Like claiming its about teaching it in schools, but eventually leading everyone to discredit the theory of Creation in general?...then moving on to more bible stories, etc. That kind of wedge strategy?

No, more like I feel you should get a big chunky wedgie.

212 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:28:11pm

On a related point about science.

I encourage everyone to view this 1 minute YouTube vid.

It is disturbing, but not in the way that it intends.

It is another scare piece about Global Warming.

The entire debate on Global Warming has long left the area of scientific inquiry. It is now exclusively about belief and morality - and if you don't believe, you are amoral. All because "the science is settled" and "the debate is over".

Gravity isn't settled. The safety and efficacy of Aspirin is not settled. Evolution is not settled (not that such makes DI valid).

The point is that AGW predicted a "hockey stick" warming pattern and the opposite is happening. That doesn't mean that there is no greenhouse effect and that man has no thermal footprint (metropolitan heat effect tells us that can't be true). What it does mean is that the science is not settled in any serious way.

Yet we have opened a door for charlatans of every stripe to sow and exploit panic. When in the history of civilization has that ended well?

This video is an artifact of dishonesty and hypochondria.

We need to refocus ourselves on reconstituting a rational age.

213 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:28:13pm

re: #191 Sharmuta

The Wedge Strategy. Read up on it, because these folks would like to get their hands on your children and "bring them to Jesus".

You are becoming insufferable.

I have never advocated on behalf of the ID morons.
I have never advocated NOT teaching evolution in schools.
I personally would only teach evolution, or most spend more time on the theory of evolution but explain to the class that there is another theory.

Seriously, although I don't completely discredit the possibility that the Creation story is 100% accurate, I am very different than most of the ID supporters here.

214 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:29:13pm

re: #201 Sharmuta

Find me a thread where most DISAGREE with Charles and I will consider changing my mind.

215 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:29:25pm

re: #206 fclass308

I feel ya, dawg.

///

Me en' dip doppity dawg gonna hang at da crib t'nite, wanna hang?

216 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:29:29pm
217 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:30:01pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

I see you are working to get me banned. You really should relax. I don't hold such hard feelings towards you.

218 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:30:04pm

re: #180 Bobibutu

That test shocks by the cultural dysjunction of placing it before us, today, AS IF we should be knowledgeable of the measures (bushels, furlongs) that WERE IN COMMON USE back then, in a primarily-agrarian, rural society...

What? You don't know your bushel-to-quarts conversions? Boy, you must be dumber than 1850's country yokels!

/unfair comparison, Bobi, kind of strawman argument they set up

219 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:30:15pm

re: #213 WrathofG-d

You admitted up thread you didn't know about the Wedge Strategy, so I provided a link. Instead of feeling persecuted, perhaps if you looked into what Charles and others have been saying about ID, you'd understand the problem. But- you'd rather remain in the dark and call me names yet again.

Who was it again you said was being insulting?

220 fclass308  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:30:56pm

re: #215 VegasRick


no thanks...I'm WAAAY too white for that scene. :P

221 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:31:07pm

re: #217 WrathofG-d

No- you're doing fine on your own.

Ignore my link to the Wedge Strategy. No skin off my nose.

222 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:31:19pm

re: #178 WrathofG-d

If Charles were instead a Biblical Literalist, 80% or so on LGF would be professing their love for the Creation. To deny that group think, and the power of Charles on LGF, had anything to do with it is a bit naive.

When I first took up the debate here I'm not sure what the ratio was but I was seriously outnumbered and I took a lot of abuse. I stuck with it because I felt I was right and my reasoning held up.

223 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:31:36pm

re: #217 WrathofG-d

I see you are working to get me banned. You really should relax. I don't hold such hard feelings towards you.

I've been avoiding joining the conversation until now.
/ Be sure to wear your tin-foil hat, it'll protect you for sure.

224 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:31:37pm

re: #222 Killgore Trout

When I first took up the debate here I'm not sure what the ratio was but I was seriously outnumbered and I took a lot of abuse. I stuck with it because I felt I was right and my reasoning held up.

So did zombie.

225 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:31:54pm

re: #197 fclass308

LOL...Hipness escapes me these days...especially when it comes to illiterate ghetto slugs with bad vocabularies, panty hose on their heads and a lack of ability to wear a hat or pants properly. :)

I'm actually wondering if these kids with their pants hanging below their butts are going to be embarrassed in their later years by photos of themselves taken these days!

226 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:31:59pm

re: #202 WrathofG-d

No. I would love to hear what my learned rabbi has to say on this subject. I would guess that he shares my personal leaning that the story is not "literal" as we take that word today, and the whole issue deals with TIME. (ie: a day is not = then to 24 hours)

This might be a surprise to you but I actually often suggest people read the book The Science Of G-d

You're emotionally shooting-from-the-hip and you have me pegged all wrong.

Gerald Schroeder is a Disco Institute fellow and a hard-core IDer:

[Link: www.ou.org...]

227 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:32:02pm
228 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:32:32pm

re: #204 Karridine

We joke, and rightfully so, but others grow without devoting time and energy to learning what the Latin root or Greek root for a (currently-used word) is, and don't know when their soundalike oxymoron is demonstrating their ignorance...

I've seen it in a whole generation of Koreans, who were relieved of the 'burden' of learning 20,000 Chinese-characters which root-the-meaning for Korean words, and now just know the easily-learned phonetic form of those underlying meanings, often wrong or only thinly-correct...

The dumbing down of THOUGHT happens when their not dueing they're homework, not inspired to experience the joy of using there English-native language to its fullest, its richest, with all the depth and expanse of thought engendered BY such study...

/yes, their are some mistrakes intentionally inserted...

To trew!

Today's schoolchildren lose a great deal of insight into the meaning of words because the teaching of grammar and spelling has been so severely dumbed-down.

One of my pet peeve's is the gratuitous misuse of apostrophe's.

/

229 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:32:42pm

re: #201 Sharmuta

Ditto for me. If this was a Creationist/Intelligent Design board, I most defiantly wouldn't be here, If I were to actually let go with my debunking of Genesis, it would get me into trouble with a lot of Lizards so I just sit back, drink my beer, sip my whiskey and eat my popcorn

230 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:33:25pm

re: #216 buzzsawmonkey

wow, I really have to go, but I have NEVER discredited evolution. I believe the theory of evolution is just more PROOF of G-d. I also gander that evolution can be easily found IN the Torah, in no way contradicts it.

Y'all keep smacking me for the ideas of the others who don't completely throw out the possibility that the creation account COULD be true.

231 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:33:31pm

Philip Johnson, Father of the Wedge had this to say:

Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

Source

232 fclass308  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:33:38pm

re: #225 Sunlight

I'm actually wondering if these kids with their pants hanging below their butts are going to be embarrassed in their later years by photos of themselves taken these days!


Probably not. Stupid is forever. :D

233 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:34:11pm

re: #136 WrathofG-d

No, I think many realized that they would be mocked, criticized, and threatened for voicing those beliefs. I

Well, your post gave me some food for thought. I oppose teaching Creationism in school, but I can sense your frustration. You are secure in your faith, perhaps believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and fear the public schools and others are mocking your faith.
I on the other hand fear that your faith's possible influence in my kids school will stifle his learning of science. Not a great choice for either of us I fear. I feel the schools should teach pure science and when the kids get home the parents can win them over with faith. Home schooling and religious schols are another option.
Even as a agnostic, I don't knock the faith of my religious friends, but we do get into lively discussions.

234 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:34:38pm

re: #224 Sharmuta

Zombie even did a report on an Adnan Oktar event long ago and decided not to publish it partially due to the overwhelming creationist support on LGF.

235 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:36:11pm

re: #230 WrathofG-d

wow, I really have to go, but I have NEVER discredited evolution. I believe the theory of evolution is just more PROOF of G-d. I also gander that evolution can be easily found IN the Torah, in no way contradicts it.

Y'all keep smacking me for the ideas of the others who don't completely throw out the possibility that the creation account COULD be true.

Really? This is the first I've seen you give any support to evolution. You've defended literalism in the past.

236 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:36:35pm
237 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:36:46pm

re: #222 Killgore Trout

Fair enough. I wouldn't consider you in the 80% because I know that you were lone in your pursuit against the majority of religious who used to be here.
re: #226 Salamantis

Gerald Schroeder is a Disco Institute fellow and a hard-core IDer:

[Link: www.ou.org...]

WOW great find. I dont' have time to read the whole thing.

238 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:36:49pm

re: #212 karmic_inquisitor

On a related point about science.

I encourage everyone to view this 1 minute YouTube vid.

It is disturbing, but not in the way that it intends.

It is another scare piece about Global Warming.

The entire debate on Global Warming has long left the area of scientific inquiry. It is now exclusively about belief and morality - and if you don't believe, you are amoral. All because "the science is settled" and "the debate is over".

Gravity isn't settled. The safety and efficacy of Aspirin is not settled. Evolution is not settled (not that such makes DI valid).

The point is that AGW predicted a "hockey stick" warming pattern and the opposite is happening. That doesn't mean that there is no greenhouse effect and that man has no thermal footprint (metropolitan heat effect tells us that can't be true). What it does mean is that the science is not settled in any serious way.

Yet we have opened a door for charlatans of every stripe to sow and exploit panic. When in the history of civilization has that ended well?

This video is an artifact of dishonesty and hypochondria.

We need to refocus ourselves on reconstituting a rational age.

That was outrageous... sad monkey commits suicide... arggg.

239 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:37:06pm

re: #224 Sharmuta

So did zombie.

And if I recall correctly, you and I were two of the ones who didn't know what to think at first, and then figured it out once we looked into it a bit.

I can recall that thread - I asked something along the lines of, "If a person believes that God created everything, and also believes that evolution is the process by which life develops, what does that make me?".

And you responded along the lines of, "A creationist, I think".

But we paid attention and checked out the provided links, and figured out really quickly that a belief in God, and believing that the process of evolution is true, are not mutually exclusive, nor do they make one a "creationist".

240 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:37:07pm

This is a moldy oldie on the internet but someone has just posted a higher resolution video of it...
Thousand-Hand Bodhisattva
/Yes, It's real

241 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:37:24pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

I thought it was because of a potential security issue, that zombie's anonymity was threatened.

242 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:37:59pm

re: #217 WrathofG-d

Will you please take a chill pill? If you want to fight, go talk to yourself in the mirror.

Enough already.

243 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:38:19pm

re: #230 WrathofG-d

wow, I really have to go, but I have NEVER discredited evolution. I believe the theory of evolution is just more PROOF of G-d. I also gander that evolution can be easily found IN the Torah, in no way contradicts it.

Y'all keep smacking me for the ideas of the others who don't completely throw out the possibility that the creation account COULD be true.

No, it can't be. DNA generally, and artifiactual retroviral DNA specifically, conclusively demonstrate that the different species evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors, so they could not have been created independently as is.

244 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:38:28pm

re: #228 Alberta Oil Peon

"...gratuitous misuse of apostrophe's..."

BLEW ME AWAY, laughing! :D

245 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:38:53pm

re: #239 reine.de.tout

Yes. Though I knew you were another who's mind was changed, and I was specifically thinking of you, I did not want to speak for you.

246 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:39:03pm

re: #237 WrathofG-d


I know that you were lone in your pursuit against the majority of religious who used to be here.


Yes, that's exactly the kind of accusation I used to get all the time. Many people still hold that view of me.

247 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:39:56pm
248 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:39:56pm

re: #228 Alberta Oil Peon

To trew!

Today's schoolchildren lose a great deal of insight into the meaning of words because the teaching of grammar and spelling has been so severely dumbed-down.

One of my pet peeve's is the gratuitous misuse of apostrophe's.

/

My peeve is people who use to when they should use too. Matter of fact I fly into an almost uncontrollable rage when I see this.../ :)
A simple device I use is the word also. If also can be substituted in place of the to/too, then the correct usage is too...e.g., Me too (as in Me also)

249 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:40:13pm

re: #218 Karridine

That test shocks by the cultural dysjunction of placing it before us, today, AS IF we should be knowledgeable of the measures (bushels, furlongs) that WERE IN COMMON USE back then, in a primarily-agrarian, rural society...

What? You don't know your bushel-to-quarts conversions? Boy, you must be dumber than 1850's country yokels!

/unfair comparison, Bobi, kind of strawman argument they set up

I seem to remember some conversion gymnastics back when I was in school - 40s - 50s and my original point was the respect and gratitude some students payed to their educator back in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

I threw the 1895 test in as a reference point - perhaps i was wrong there - but my original focus stands.

250 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:40:24pm

re: #189 LGoPs
I'm only here as a moderate because of threads like this. I'll admit I tended to think folks on the right were far right, anti science Bible thumpers. I'm not proud to say that is not a uncommon assumption to those on the left.
I can deal with the fact that most are still climate change skeptics, but at least you'll discus it.

251 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:40:50pm

Where'd the Oompah Loompahs come from?

252 DesertSage  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:40:53pm

re: #230 WrathofG-d

wow, I really have to go, but I have NEVER discredited evolution. I believe the theory of evolution is just more PROOF of G-d.

Wow, I like that. Well said. :')

253 VMA211Dan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:41:04pm

Test

254 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:41:42pm

re: #213 WrathofG-d

You are differerent, but at the same time you continue to say that this is a campaign against religion, which is really just furthering the false dichotomy that Discovery Institute wants out there.

255 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:42:02pm

re: #235 Sharmuta

My good friend, Sharmuta.

I defend literalism, as I believe it COULD be true. I also defend Evolution, as I believe it too COULD be true. I'm on the fence.

If you more often than not saw me defending literalism, it is because i personally believed (not as part of some ID scam I was unaware of until LGF) that the conversation here had become aggressive, offensive, and dismissive of those who held religious beliefs.

When I argued on these threads it was mostly to point out that neither can be "so sure", and those who had religious beliefs shouldn't be mocked because of it. I have no problem with an argument that Creation shouldn't be taught in schools. I do have a major problem however with the "i couldn't in any way be wrong, and if you believe in that "myth" of G-d, or the possibility of Creation you are a stupid idiot, and I mock you because you reject intelligence" argument.

256 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:42:21pm

I see WrathofG-D is making it all about him again.

He was banned once before for this kind of stuff, of course. Looks like it's been eating at him.

257 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:42:25pm

re: #251 MandyManners

Where'd the Oompah Loompahs come from?

where did those turquoise m&m's come from?
spontaneous generation is my guess.

258 DesertSage  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:43:20pm

Thanks CynicalConservative, I didn't know that a belief on God was a down ding offense...but I guess in your small mind it is.

259 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:43:52pm
260 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:44:07pm

re: #250 avanti

I'm only here as a moderate because of threads like this. I'll admit I tended to think folks on the right were far right, anti science Bible thumpers. I'm not proud to say that is not a uncommon assumption to those on the left.
I can deal with the fact that most are still climate change skeptics, but at least you'll discus it.

And we have a sense of humor. My view of the left is that they are very similar to the Borg, except that the Borg have a better sense of humor...
/ :)

261 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:44:13pm

re: #242 NY Nana

Nana,

I made a comment about the posters on LGF, and Sharm misstated that it was an attack on Charles. Everyone knows the quickest way to get banned around here is to attack Charles. Thus I believe my statement was accurate. I am actually NOT looking for a fight, quite the opposite actually.

You know me well enough to know that, I would have thought.

262 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:45:12pm

re: #259 buzzsawmonkey

That reminds me, whatever happened to the Pepsi Generation? Comin' at you? Goin' strong?

fat tax slowed them down.

263 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:45:18pm

re: #261 WrathofG-d

Nana,

I made a comment about the posters on LGF, and Sharm misstated that it was an attack on Charles. Everyone knows the quickest way to get banned around here is to attack Charles. Thus I believe my statement was accurate. I am actually NOT looking for a fight, quite the opposite actually.

You know me well enough to know that, I would have thought.

Actually, there is a quicker way, and you just found it. I bid you adieu.

264 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:45:20pm

I hate to watch old lizards melt down but I see the martyrdom crew is here. Time for me to leave.
/G'nite, y'all

265 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:45:40pm

re: #258 DesertSage

Thanks CynicalConservative, I didn't know that a belief on God was a down ding offense...but I guess in your small mind it is.

It's not a belief in god that gets the down-ding, it's the support of the strawman cop out of "accepting" evolution as proof of the work of god.

Nothing personal.

266 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:46:24pm

re: #258 DesertSage

Thanks CynicalConservative, I didn't know that a belief on God was a down ding offense...but I guess in your small mind it is.

And for the second half of your comment... you must be looking in a mirror.

267 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:46:52pm

re: #249 Bobibutu

I concur yr original focus, Bobibutu! A healthy respect for the souls who bring light into the student's life is a good thing, and explicitly set out today in the Teachings of the Glory of God.

My youngest son is named in remembrance of the Thai (at Monterey Language Institute) who taught me of the Faith...

268 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:47:22pm

re: #251 MandyManners

These guys?

Wonka Accused of Fiddling With Oompah Loompahs

The show trial of the decade continued today as Elstree Crown Court heard evidence of how former confectionary mogul Willy Wonka
, systematically abused Oompah Loompahs under his employment
.

269 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:47:58pm

re: #255 WrathofG-d

. . . I do have a major problem however with the "i couldn't in any way be wrong, and if you believe in that "myth" of G-d, or the possibility of Creation you are a stupid idiot, and I mock you because you reject intelligence" argument.

There may be a few here and there whose rhetoric from time to time does indeed sound as if they hold the view that a belief in God makes one a "stupid idiot".

But that is not Charles' viewpoint, nor is it the viewpoint of most people here. I suggest you learn to ignore the folks that aggravate you with that kind of talk. It's not worth the time or effort.

270 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:48:22pm

re: #250 avanti

I'm only here as a moderate because of threads like this. I'll admit I tended to think folks on the right were far right, anti science Bible thumpers. I'm not proud to say that is not a uncommon assumption to those on the left.
I can deal with the fact that most are still climate change skeptics, but at least you'll discus it.


Just out of curiosity, when you say "Climate Change Skeptics" are you referring to Al Gore's vision?
Did you notice that you did not use the term Global Warming?
Seriously, I am just curious what you think.

271 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:48:36pm

Yes, teaching creationism or religion in public schools will NOT pass the constitutional test. I'm a strong supporter of strict constructionism regarding the constitution.

I don't think this is what this fight is all about. It also has to do with the extreme encroachment of liberalism, moral relativism and multiculturalism in our schools and society and the attempt to erase our Judeo-Christian heritage from all walks of life in our country. It also has to do with the decay of traditional morals and principals. I don't think all these Christians, not just evangelicals, are fighting on this front and other fronts only because they really want creationism in public school, which they will not get.

Here is a good article from the perspective of the Catholic Church on the sick thinking of Pete Singer.

[Link: www.catholiceducation.org...]

All of this stuff is a battle across many areas. Creationism should not be taught in schools, but liberalism has ruined everything else in our schools, from math to classic literature to history (they teach revisionism now) to a lack of respect and no dress code and a lack of cultural decency, amongst many other things.

272 DesertSage  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:49:04pm

re: #265 CynicalConservative

It's not a belief in god that gets the down-ding, it's the support of the strawman cop out of "accepting" evolution as proof of the work of god.

Nothing personal.

Excuse me, but what I said was no straw man. What I said was what I believe.

And if what I believe is that evolution is the work of God, who are you to tell me that I'm wrong.
What, now beliefs are wrong?

273 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:50:17pm

re: #267 Karridine

I concur yr original focus, Bobibutu! A healthy respect for the souls who bring light into the student's life is a good thing, and explicitly set out today in the Teachings of the Glory of God.

My youngest son is named in remembrance of the Thai (at Monterey Language Institute) who taught me of the Faith...

Hmmm MLI - we have associates who may have crossed paths.

274 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:50:40pm

My attitude is simple, if you don't want to be here, and it's so unpleasant that you just have to complain about it all the time, while using my software and my bandwidth, just don't comment.

But if you do complain and whine and issue passive aggressive insults, I'll just block you. I'm not in the mood for martyrs.

275 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:51:02pm

This conversation is difficult enough without the obfuscation and red herrings.

276 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:51:08pm

re: #269 reine.de.tout

If I may add to that argument: that false dichotomy is the argument the people at the Discovery Institute want and encourage people to have. The heat of that argument will obscure the fact that they (the ID folks) are not bringing anything to the work of scientific investigation.

277 3 wood  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:51:31pm

OT:

The DOW dropped about 2.5% today and the S&P 500 dropped 2.12%

Oil dropped to $36.22 despite the announcements by OPEC of production cut backs due to demand dropping.

The TED spread dropped another 5% today.

Interest rates continue to fall.

MONEY MARKETS-Dollar interbank rates at multi-yr lows

LONDON, Dec 18 (Reuters) - Dollar interbank rates fell to
fresh multi-year lows in Europe on Thursday and spreads
tightened further in markets comforted by the Federal Reserve's
near-zero rate policy and promise of more liquidity measures.

Three-month dollar rates in London dropped to
1.52500 percent at the British Bankers Association's London
fixing on Thursday from 1.57750 on Wednesday, extending the fall
in the past week to more than 60 basis points and hitting its
lowest levels since mid-2004.

The equivalent euro and sterling Libor rates also eased.

The spread between three-month dollar Libor and overnight
index swaps eased overnight to 133 basis points from 141 bps the
previous session -- a sharp narrowing from 191 bps last week.

"There is a continuation trade here, with dollar Libor rates
falling as the momentum remains after this week's cut in U.S.
interest rates," said Orlando Green, a bond analyst at Calyon in
London.

Banks are still sitting on a lot of cash to make their financial ratios look as good as possible for the year end reports.

In early January we should start seeing more lending activity as those banks look to put some of that cash to work and make a yield.

278 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:52:28pm

re: #274 Charles

My attitude is simple, if you don't want to be here, and it's so unpleasant that you just have to complain about it all the time, while using my software and my bandwidth, just don't comment.

But if you do complain and whine and issue passive aggressive insults, I'll just block you. I'm not in the mood for martyrs.

WOW - how hard it that to understand?

279 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:52:49pm

re: #273 Bobibutu

Do tell? I served as a Korean language instructor there, 1967-68... then got rudely uprooted from my cushy teaching job when NSA needed somebody to follow-up on a certain 'USS Pueblo Incident'?

280 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:53:07pm

re: #261 WrathofG-d

Attacking Charles is not the quickest way to get banned here, Wrath...picking fights and being hostile, insulting and kidnapping a thread any number of times is, I think.

You have been in a bad mood, or something for about a week, and LGF is not Lucy's Lemonade Stand...It is better to just chill when you are so antagonistic, and come back to post when whatever has you so hostile dealt with.

You are attacking people left and right, and it just is not right. LGF is not a wrestling match, damn it.

Before you get into more arguments, try reading your posts for the past week or 10 days, and see why we are upset, me included.

Yes, most of us are opinionated, or I don't think we would be here in the first place, but flame wars are just not needed. There is enough going on in the world to be sick over...and LGF is not a clinic.

281 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:53:24pm

re: #272 DesertSage

Excuse me, but what I said was no straw man. What I said was what I believe.

And if what I believe is that evolution is the work of God, who are you to tell me that I'm wrong.
What, now beliefs are wrong?

I stand corrected. Beliefs are a personal thing and I was wrong to attack in that fashion.

It was a knee jerk reaction in that most times in my experience when this argument is posited it indicates the end of rational thought and the ultimate trump card of "everything I can't explain is the work of god".

Hot button issue for me.

282 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:53:41pm

re: #255 WrathofG-d

My good friend, Sharmuta.

I defend literalism, as I believe it COULD be true. I also defend Evolution, as I believe it too COULD be true. I'm on the fence.

Evolutionary theory has reams of supporting empirical evidence, while creationism has none, and Genesis Literalism has reams of empirical evidence falsifying it. Facts matter.

If you more often than not saw me defending literalism, it is because i personally believed (not as part of some ID scam I was unaware of until LGF) that the conversation here had become aggressive, offensive, and dismissive of those who held religious beliefs.

Beliefs that are embraced in the face of counterfactual empirical evidence are beliefs in the objectively untrue, which is delusional.

When I argued on these threads it was mostly to point out that neither can be "so sure", and those who had religious beliefs shouldn't be mocked because of it. I have no problem with an argument that Creation shouldn't be taught in schools. I do have a major problem however with the "i couldn't in any way be wrong, and if you believe in that "myth" of G-d, or the possibility of Creation you are a stupid idiot, and I mock you because you reject intelligence" argument.

Actually, assertions cannot be proven to be absolutely true, but they CAN be proven to be absolutely false. And the literal reading of Genesis has indeed been scientifically proven to be absolutely false in at least a couple of particulars (age of the universe, the earth, and terrestrial species, independent and as is creation of terrestrial species). You are catching flak because you're trying to make it an emotional issue, rather than an intellectual one, and willfully ignoring empirical evidence in favor of self-righteous umbrage-taking.

283 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:53:48pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

Sharmy, its ALWAYS obfuscations and red-herrings...

/we have a lunch special on herring soup?

284 Throbert McGee  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:55:43pm

re: #212 karmic_inquisitor

On a related point about science.

I encourage everyone to view this 1 minute YouTube vid.

If only that monkey had talked to his doctor about Zoloft...

P.S. Statistics show that 1 out of 3 gay teenage monkeys has committed suicide, has tried to commit suicide, has thought about suicide, is familiar with Dorothy Parker's suicide-themed poem "Résumé," has rented Heathers on DVD, and/or knows that the theme song to M*A*S*H actually has lyrics that include "suicide is painless."

285 LEGION  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:56:14pm

J - E - T - S JETS JETS JETS! FOR CHRISTMAS I WANT A CLINCHED FIRST ROUND BYE! GO BRETT!

286 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:56:15pm

I love you, {Nana}!

287 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:56:56pm

re: #285 LEGION

J - E - T - S JETS JETS JETS! FOR CHRISTMAS I WANT A CLINCHED FIRST ROUND BYE! GO BRETT!

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I admire your passion and energy.

288 LEGION  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:57:27pm

re: #284 Throbert McGee

Col. Blake- It's nice to be nice to the nice.

289 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:57:45pm

re: #271 beermeister

Yes, teaching creationism or religion in public schools will NOT pass the constitutional test. I'm a strong supporter of strict constructionism regarding the constitution.

I don't think this is what this fight is all about. It also has to do with the extreme encroachment of liberalism, moral relativism and multiculturalism in our schools and society and the attempt to erase our Judeo-Christian heritage from all walks of life in our country. It also has to do with the decay of traditional morals and principals. I don't think all these Christians, not just evangelicals, are fighting on this front and other fronts only because they really want creationism in public school, which they will not get.

Here is a good article from the perspective of the Catholic Church on the sick thinking of Pete Singer.

[Link: www.catholiceducation.org...]

All of this stuff is a battle across many areas. Creationism should not be taught in schools, but liberalism has ruined everything else in our schools, from math to classic literature to history (they teach revisionism now) to a lack of respect and no dress code and a lack of cultural decency, amongst many other things.

Empirical science in general, and evolutionary theory in particular, are not liberal or conservative. Science is not supposed to be about politics, but about evidence, and I get really pissed at people who illegitimately attempt to politicize it, regardless of from whichever end of the political spectrum they hail.

290 DesertSage  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:57:46pm

re: #281 CynicalConservative

I stand corrected. Beliefs are a personal thing and I was wrong to attack in that fashion.

It was a knee jerk reaction in that most times in my experience when this argument is posited it indicates the end of rational thought and the ultimate trump card of "everything I can't explain is the work of god".

Hot button issue for me.

That's cool, no problem.

I don't usually try and argue my beliefs anyhow. My beliefs are mine and your beliefs are yours. As long as we don't force them on each other we will be just fine.

:')

291 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:57:47pm
292 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:58:31pm

re: #279 Karridine

Do tell? I served as a Korean language instructor there, 1967-68... then got rudely uprooted from my cushy teaching job when NSA needed somebody to follow-up on a certain 'USS Pueblo Incident'?

Holy crapola - I have always argued that Butcher always knew where he was al la GPS.

I had a friend that taught there - Arabic.

293 LEGION  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:58:56pm

re: #287 CynicalConservative

Why thank-you sir or mame'-- We be talking FOOTBALL- American Football and Baseball and Hockey and Basketball are LIFE.

294 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:59:01pm

re: #290 DesertSage

That's cool, no problem.

I don't usually try and argue my beliefs anyhow. My beliefs are mine and your beliefs are yours. As long as we don't force them on each other we will be just fine.

:')

I agree 100% and more. The last sentence there could be the keystone to world peace.

295 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:59:36pm

re: #293 LEGION

Why thank-you sir or mame'-- We be talking FOOTBALL- American Football and Baseball and Hockey and Basketball are LIFE.

Ahhh, light dawns on marble head...

:-)

296 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:59:39pm

re: #270 opnion

Just out of curiosity, when you say "Climate Change Skeptics" are you referring to Al Gore's vision?
Did you notice that you did not use the term Global Warming?
Seriously, I am just curious what you think.

To be honest I feel like the creationist in the room on that issue, and would be wasting my breath in the opposite direction. With but a few exceptions, science is on my side, and I'd fighting faith that it's wrong. The EPA calls it climate change since that's more discriptive of what warming causes. I fought this out in another thread for a bit, but got mocked and dinged down so fast I figured I'd better get out of Dodge.
In a way it's sad that Gore took up the issue, that made it automatically a dead issue on the right even though Newt and GW have come around.

297 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 5:59:50pm
298 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:01:12pm

Go (down) Colts!

299 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:01:43pm

re: #294 CynicalConservative

I agree 100% and more. The last sentence there could be the keystone to world peace.

re: #290 DesertSage

That's cool, no problem.

I don't usually try and argue my beliefs anyhow. My beliefs are mine and your beliefs are yours. As long as we don't force them on each other we will be just fine.

:')

Hugs and kisses...that's what I like to see. I respect and like you both...
:)

300 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:01:57pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

Understand, don't disagree, but I am sorry to see Wrath go. He's posted a lot of useful information in other threads.

I wish that there were a way for people to have one off-kilter position indulged without it opening the door to a Keystone Cop-load of Vlaams Belangers, or something.

Human governors have yet to be invented.

And I concur with you.

301 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:02:52pm

Wrath of God got wrathed! Anti LGF site in 5..4..3..2..

302 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:02:52pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

Understand, don't disagree, but I am sorry to see Wrath go. He's posted a lot of useful information in other threads.

I wish that there were a way for people to have one off-kilter position indulged without it opening the door to a Keystone Cop-load of Vlaams Belangers, or something.

Also take into account the fact that the vast majority of the people reading these threads neither know nor care about the personalities involved, and reading a bunch of whiny complaints and extended back-and-forth bickering is the best way to turn them completely off. Thread hijacking, I think it's called.

303 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:03:00pm

a spark of good news? a spark of sanity?

Bush Considers Bankruptcy for GM, Chrysler

304 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:03:24pm

re: #48 Thanos

Sharmuta: we lost the war over facts in history classes long ago with Deconstructionism. It's time to get a new front going in that arena too. If they taught empirical history class -- one that was mostly factual, I think students would be a lot better off.
Instead they teach only the negative nuggets of US history nowadays it seems.

Yes, it is a travesty. We've robbed our young people of the future and turned them into shallow thinkers. Mathematics is the mother of all the sciences, History is the mother of all the liberal arts.

/well, if I said it it must be so o_0 hee

305 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:03:30pm

re: #296 avanti

It's also sad that Gore so badly attacked science and empiricism in his documentary. You might not see it that way, but his over the top estimates and doom and gloom predictions punctured the possibility of serious discussion and debate on the topic.

306 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:03:45pm

re: #296 avanti

To be honest I feel like the creationist in the room on that issue, and would be wasting my breath in the opposite direction. With but a few exceptions, science is on my side, and I'd fighting faith that it's wrong. The EPA calls it climate change since that's more discriptive of what warming causes. I fought this out in another thread for a bit, but got mocked and dinged down so fast I figured I'd better get out of Dodge.
In a way it's sad that Gore took up the issue, that made it automatically a dead issue on the right even though Newt and GW have come around.


Thank's for responding & I certainly would not mock your beliefs.
It sounds like you have already been to war over it & I undestand why you would want to let it go for a while.

307 LEGION  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:04:01pm

G M Mark of Excellence! NOT :-(

308 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:04:30pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

Understand, don't disagree, but I am sorry to see Wrath go. He's posted a lot of useful information in other threads.

I wish that there were a way for people to have one off-kilter position indulged without it opening the door to a Keystone Cop-load of Vlaams Belangers, or something.

I've disagreed with WrathofG-d on pretty much everything, but he is so good at explaining things I don't understand and bringing up new stuff I didn't know...

309 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:04:30pm

re: #286 Sharmuta

And I love you, {Sharm}.

Wrath is not a bad person, but something seems to have gotten to him lately, especially after having been banned once, and allowed to return. The ball was in his court, but he decided to lose.

Charles is a very patient man.

310 LEGION  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:04:41pm

re: #305 Thanos

It's also sad that Gore so badly attacked science and empiricism in his documentary. You might not see it that way, but his over the top estimates and doom and gloom predictions punctured the possibility of serious discussion and debate on the topic.

Gore - with his bad attitude and gloom and doom- would be banned from this site!

311 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:05:23pm

re: #297 buzzsawmonkey

I'll miss him, too but, he just got meaner than a snake tonight.

312 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:05:23pm

re: #212 karmic_inquisitor

1 minute YouTube vid


I say shoot all the polar bears now and put them out of their misery.

313 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:06:10pm
314 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:06:12pm

re: #309 NY Nana

Hiya' Nana!

315 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:06:37pm

re: #312 HelloDare

I say shoot all the polar bears now and put them out of their misery.


Can you make coats out of their fur?

316 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:06:39pm

re: #313 Ben Hur

I don't know why that's a link.

Please delete.

317 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:07:07pm

re: #296 avanti

To be honest I feel like the creationist in the room on that issue, and would be wasting my breath in the opposite direction. With but a few exceptions, science is on my side, and I'd fighting faith that it's wrong. The EPA calls it climate change since that's more discriptive of what warming causes. I fought this out in another thread for a bit, but got mocked and dinged down so fast I figured I'd better get out of Dodge.
In a way it's sad that Gore took up the issue, that made it automatically a dead issue on the right even though Newt and GW have come around.

You might wanna look at this, avanti:

[Link: epw.senate.gov...]

[Link: www.heartland.org...]

[Link: www.sovereignty.org.uk...]

318 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:07:14pm

re: #302 Charles

Also take into account the fact that the vast majority of the people reading these threads neither know nor care about the personalities involved, and reading a bunch of whiny complaints and bickering is the best way to turn them completely off. Thread hijacking, I think it's called.

There is a lot of responsibility here - and commercial enterprise? Where is the balance?

319 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:07:45pm
320 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:07:52pm

re: #315 MandyManners

Can you make coats out of their fur?

Sure. Their also nice for buffing out your new Bentley.

321 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:08:03pm

re: #296 avanti

To be honest I feel like the creationist in the room on that issue, and would be wasting my breath in the opposite direction. With but a few exceptions, science is on my side, and I'd fighting faith that it's wrong. The EPA calls it climate change since that's more discriptive of what warming causes. I fought this out in another thread for a bit, but got mocked and dinged down so fast I figured I'd better get out of Dodge.
In a way it's sad that Gore took up the issue, that made it automatically a dead issue on the right even though Newt and GW have come around.

I don't want to make your prediction come true by jumping all over you but you're right about one point - Gore. I see red when his name comes up and the image that hits me most viscerally is his screaming statement that "The debate is over". That's a WTF moment for me. I'm old enough to remember the Coming Ice Age and the Population Bomb - chicken little shit from the 70's . But now we're on the verge of making draconian changes to our economy and the debate is over? Not by a long shot.

322 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:08:16pm

re: #303 FrogMarch

a spark of good news? a spark of sanity?

Bush Considers Bankruptcy for GM, Chrysler

Wouldn't that be nice? He is also considering pardoning Campos and Ramos, don't know about Libby or Pollard.

323 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:08:43pm

sorry.

324 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:09:16pm

re: #306 opnion

Thank's for responding & I certainly would not mock your beliefs.
It sounds like you have already been to war over it & I undestand why you would want to let it go for a while.

Glad you understand. BTW, I agree Gore was over the top in his book, as was Silent Spring many years ago, but he opened the discussion and that leads to knowledge.

325 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:10:09pm

re: #320 HelloDare

Sure. Their also nice for buffing out your new Bentley.

I don't have a new Bentley. Can I use it to buff my old one?

326 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:10:21pm

re: #305 Thanos

It's also sad that Gore so badly attacked science and empiricism in his documentary. You might not see it that way, but his over the top estimates and doom and gloom predictions punctured the possibility of serious discussion and debate on the topic.


Who wants that?

327 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:10:33pm

re: #271 beermeister

I think it is really easy to conflate the issues, beermeister. It's a real snarled up mess in the educational system. It would be wonderful if history was taught without revisionism or a hidden agenda.

328 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:10:51pm
329 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:10:55pm

i never question who charles bans.
that doesn't mean i won't miss them or at least somethings abt. them.

330 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:10:56pm

re: #322 Rancher

Wouldn't that be nice? He is also considering pardoning Campos and Ramos, don't know about Libby or Pollard.

the man can go out as a class -A- jerk or a hero. His choice.
If he chooses to help save the corrupt inept backwards socialist UAW, then he is a jerk. and he absolutely should pardon Campos and Ramos.

331 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:11:09pm

re: #313 Ben Hur

? what was that--linky dead.

332 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:11:58pm

re: #315 MandyManners

Can you make coats out of their fur?

Yeah, but some dipshit will throw red paint on it.

333 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:12:02pm

re: 212 karmic_inquisitor

Gravity isn't settled.

There are laws of gravity and they are supported by mathematical proofs.

334 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:12:55pm

re: #324 avanti

Glad you understand. BTW, I agree Gore was over the top in his book, as was Silent Spring many years ago, but he opened the discussion and that leads to knowledge.

I don't like freaks opening discussions that require complex investigation, you get Al Gore on one side and freaks like this one the other end, then no real discourse is possible.
The heavy political agenda and the carbon cap ponzi scheme also encourages one of the worst energy source we use today, coal. Gore comes from a coal state.

335 DesertSage  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:13:32pm

And we all know that Global Warming was caused by computers anyhow.

336 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:13:37pm

re: #322 Rancher

Wouldn't that be nice? He is also considering pardoning Campos and Ramos, don't know about Libby or Pollard.

Great news! Linky?
Can you post that next door (open comments)?
There's a bunch of people who are ascaird of entering this thread.

337 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:14:13pm

re: #314 MandyManners

Hello, {Mandy}! What's new?

338 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:14:26pm

re: #313 Ben Hur

Think you blew that link Ben. :-)

339 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:14:32pm

re: #332 BignJames

Yeah, but some dipshit will throw red paint on it.

ketchup or mustard is popular here.
they come up behind you on the sidewalk and squirt it on the back of your coat.

340 LGoPs  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:14:45pm

re: #327 Joan

I think it is really easy to conflate the issues, beermeister. It's a real snarled up mess in the educational system. It would be wonderful if history was taught without revisionism or a hidden agenda.

Revising history is a key element in the propogation of liberal thought. If history were taught accurately there would be too many uncomfortable questions to answer. Easier if kids think that Marx was a comedian with thick eyebrows and a cigar...

341 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:14:51pm

re: #329 nyc redneck

i never question who charles bans.
that doesn't mean i won't miss them or at least somethings abt. them.

What you said.

342 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:15:25pm

re: #315 MandyManners

Coats, robes, tents, footwear.

343 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:15:25pm

re: #317 Salamantis

You might wanna look at this, avanti:

The Global Warming (Climate Change) Movement & I do not mean Avanti seems to me like a bunch of Weather Fundamentalists. More & more scientists escape the Inquisition & debunk the lunacy that man is the primary cause of any of it. The coldest , snowiest Winter in 30 years last year, no promlem. That in some understandable way somehow proves their point. Newsweek warns of a new Ice Age , 32 years ago & now gets hysterical over Global Warming & has no shame.
This is a scam with a lot of people getting rich.

344 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:15:32pm

re: #299 LGoPs

re: #290 DesertSage

That's cool, no problem.

I don't usually try and argue my beliefs anyhow. My beliefs are mine and your beliefs are yours. As long as we don't force them on each other we will be just fine.

:')

Hugs and kisses...that's what I like to see. I respect and like you both...
:)

S'all good. I have an internal conflict of liking to stir the pot while at the same time keeping the peace. Agressively humble?

345 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:15:50pm

re: #334 Thanos

Thanos,

/Does the author live in that tree?

346 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:16:00pm

re: #317 Salamantis

You might wanna look at this, avanti:

[Link: epw.senate.gov...]

[Link: www.heartland.org...]

[Link: www.sovereignty.org.uk...]

Not going to take the bait sorry. I'd reply with bigger list of scientists actually in the field, post more links, you'd reply with still more and off we'd go. Just write me off as losing the augment and we'll move on.

347 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:16:32pm

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

348 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:16:32pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Me, too.

349 3 wood  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:17:25pm

re: #322 Rancher

re: #303 FrogMarch

a spark of good news? a spark of sanity?

Bush Considers Bankruptcy for GM, Chrysler

I think that is going to be part of the deal. If they want the dough, they got to go through a planned out bankruptcy to get it.

350 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:17:32pm

re: #321 LGoPs

I don't want to make your prediction come true by jumping all over you but you're right about one point - Gore. I see red when his name comes up and the image that hits me most viscerally is his screaming statement that "The debate is over". That's a WTF moment for me. I'm old enough to remember the Coming Ice Age and the Population Bomb - chicken little shit from the 70's . But now we're on the verge of making draconian changes to our economy and the debate is over? Not by a long shot.

Gore has no scientific background. He is just cashing in & loveing the attention

351 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:17:36pm

re: #339 nyc redneck


Classy.

352 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:19:11pm

re: 289 Salamantis

Empirical science in general, and evolutionary theory in particular, are not liberal or conservative.

Agree on that. I was trying to point out other systemic problems. There are too many of them and they have nothing to do with evolution or creationism. I also think many people on this board, including me and maybe u 2, have common ground on fighting those other systemic problems.

Beer time!

353 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:19:24pm

re: #222 Killgore Trout

When I first took up the debate here I'm not sure what the ratio was but I was seriously outnumbered and I took a lot of abuse. I stuck with it because I felt I was right and my reasoning held up.

Me too. I remember a few years back being told in the course of one discussion that 'my sort' wasn't welcome here, or words to that effect. At that time I didn't know if Charles backed that view or not, so I was very pleased and relieved when he started to challenge ID and creationism. It's great to see that Charles' hard work has resulted in people thinking about the material and arguments presented and in many cases it seems, changing their minds as a result.

354 nyc redneck  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:19:55pm

the problem for the fur terrorists is that so many fake fur coats look real and so many real fur coats look fake. it's hard to tell today.
lol. imagine wearing a fake mouton and some s.o.b. smears you.

355 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:20:13pm

re: #292 Bobibutu

Bucher... a true hero!

He may have known, but he was following legal orders and delivered (unbeknownst to him) the Tricked Encryption Machine into the hands of the Chi-Com, who used it for years (laughing at the stupid Americans) until nearly ALL the ChiCom and USSR channels had been seriously compromised...

Hastened the fall of the USSR, significantly!

True heroes, they were!

356 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:20:22pm

re: #338 Bubblehead II

Think you blew that link Ben. :-)

I really needed the money.

It's tough out there today.

357 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:20:39pm

re: #325 MandyManners

I don't have a new Bentley. Can I use it to buff my old one?

Is that what you're calling it these days?
///Don't whack me

358 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:21:00pm
359 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:21:11pm

I don't know what happened.

I didn't even click on the link icon.

360 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:21:48pm

re: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

It goes something like this:

CREATIONIST: "Well, we can debate Evolution, but...look! Shiny things!"

361 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:22:27pm

re: #345 NY Nana

Who knows? The saddest thing is that he's been pimping "magnetic reversals" for several years but now has a new book out about how they are responsible for the coming ice age. With the dearth of sunspots we have atm he will probably sell heavy...

362 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:22:28pm

re: #354 nyc redneck


I'd like some moonbat hide boots.

363 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:22:29pm

re: #337 NY Nana

Hello, {Mandy}! What's new?

Not a lot. How's life with you?

364 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:22:54pm

re: #359 Ben Hur

I don't know what happened.

I didn't even click on the link icon.

A likely excuse.

//Just posting so I can say Great Nic, Great Icon! Love the movie and the actor (more)

365 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:23:19pm

Intelligent Design is a very Postmodern movement. It's mostly concerned with whatever works politically to advance its goals, and is quite vague about any details of what that final goal might be. In the arguments about this subject on LGF, some of the posters supporting ID (as a political effort, not a private religious feeling) seem to feel no compunction about lying for the cause of what they may see as a larger truth.
This characteristic is shared by some of the more extreme AGW proponents.

366 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:23:31pm

re: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

Yes, they're trying to latch on to that 'don't trust the scientists' meme. "If they believe that global warming is a scientific conspiracy, they should be nicely primed to buy the idea that evolution is just another one".

367 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:23:58pm

re: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

It's a definite strategy at DI, they said as much shortly after the Kitzmiller trial.

368 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:24:30pm

re: #356 Ben Hur

PFfffttt! Man, I miss seeing you around.

369 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:24:38pm

re: #312 HelloDare

I burst into laughter as the video ended... going from the faux-maudlin chimps in the crazed-ruined environment to the non-sequitur of "Turn Down the Sun, the Main-Driver of Global Warming!"

Tickled my funny-button, but that was NOT its intent, Hello!

370 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:25:26pm

re: #353 Jimmah

Me too. I remember a few years back being told in the course of one discussion that 'my sort' wasn't welcome here, or words to that effect. At that time I didn't know if Charles backed that view or not, so I was very pleased and relieved when he started to challenge ID and creationism. It's great to see that Charles' hard work has resulted in people thinking about the material and arguments presented and in many cases it seems, changing their minds as a result.


I was on here one night & made what I thought was a rather obvious observatin that the story of the Garden of Eden cannot be taken literally. Oh man, I kicked a hornets nest.
At one point I was accused of not knowing what I was talking about because I was not there.
My rejoinder? "That's my point, nobody was"
That just made it more hysterical.

371 Steffan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:26:51pm

re: #267 Karridine

I concur yr original focus, Bobibutu! A healthy respect for the souls who bring light into the student's life is a good thing, and explicitly set out today in the Teachings of the Glory of God.

My youngest son is named in remembrance of the Thai (at Monterey Language Institute) who taught me of the Faith...

Do tell? I studied Russian there too many moons ago -- I graduated in FY 7T, when they switched the FY from June to September.

372 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:26:57pm

re: #355 Karridine

Bucher... a true hero!

He may have known, but he was following legal orders and delivered (unbeknownst to him) the Tricked Encryption Machine into the hands of the Chi-Com, who used it for years (laughing at the stupid Americans) until nearly ALL the ChiCom and USSR channels had been seriously compromised...

Hastened the fall of the USSR, significantly!

True heroes, they were!

! and where could I learn more about this? sounds like Tom Clancy

373 Throbert McGee  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:27:15pm

re: #243 Salamantis

No, it can't be. DNA generally, and artifactual retroviral DNA specifically, conclusively demonstrate that the different species evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors, so they could not have been created independently as is.

Well -- they could've been created independently as is, just last Tuesday, and God threw in all the retroviral DNA artifacts along with the faked dinosaur fossils and the faked ancient civilizations that pre-date 4000 B.C. and the "photon trails" from distant stars and the planted memories that we all have of things happening before last Tuesday, just because He wanted to test our faith.

The question is, why would anyone prefer to believe in a God whose Creation is absolutely riddled with colossal fakery and lies, over a God who may have thought it best to gloss over the graphic details with one or two minor fibs when He revealed the Bible to a people who hadn't even figured out yet that the Earth is round?

For God to have told the ancient Israelites that they were descended from monkey-like creatures; and that humans shared common ancestors not only with monkeys, but with dogs and sheep and chickens and fish and palm trees and mushrooms; and furthermore that every star in the sky is a sun, many of them much bigger than our Sun, and many of these other suns having their own planets; would've been tantamount to a parent explaining to a five-year-old that babies are made "when daddy shoves his hard throbbing c*ck into mommy's hot wet p*ssy." Not age-appropriate, in other words.

374 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:27:28pm

re: #309 NY Nana

And I love you, {Sharm}.

Wrath is not a bad person, but something seems to have gotten to him lately, especially after having been banned once, and allowed to return. The ball was in his court, but he decided to lose.

Charles is a very patient man.

I love the way that you, Sharmuta, and Salamantis seem to have a knack for putting into words what I cannot.

375 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:27:56pm

re: #365 jaunte

Intelligent Design is a very Postmodern movement. It's mostly concerned with whatever works politically to advance its goals, and is quite vague about any details of what that final goal might be. In the arguments about this subject on LGF, some of the posters supporting ID (as a political effort, not a private religious feeling) seem to feel no compunction about lying for the cause of what they may see as a larger truth.
This characteristic is shared by some of the more extreme AGW proponents.

I agree completely. However, I think the final goal was accidentally let out of the bag, which is why this quote was later scrubbed from wiki:

Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

IMO, that's all you really need to know about ID.

376 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:28:38pm

re: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

We are on a planet falling thru space circling a star that is falling thru space in a galaxy falling thru space ... uh I think climate change is a possibility.

377 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:29:20pm

re: #329 nyc redneck

i never question who charles bans.
that doesn't mean i won't miss them or at least somethings abt. them.

Fair enough, I fairly knew the guyre: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.


I've seldom seen a creationist that supports climate change or the reverse. I do some movement by evangelicals to the environmental issues, but not without flack from others. The rational from some is that the Lord gave us the planet to use as we like and will take care of it for us.
Even he did and will, I don't think he'd mind if we kept the place tidy.

378 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:29:32pm

re: #376 Bobibutu

We are on a planet falling thru space circling a star that is falling thru space in a galaxy falling thru space ... uh I think climate change is a possibility.

Sure it is, regardless of what we do or do not do.

379 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:29:43pm

re: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

Looks like I (NOT a creationist) brought up climate change back at 33 in questioning Scientific American's impartiality as a source given their major effort to claim that discussion is over re manmade climate change. Their podcast, which I listened to until last summer, was a billboard for left causes. I've switched to Popular Mechanics.

380 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:29:43pm

re: #371 Steffan

Russian was my second choice, Tovaritch, but I got my first choice (anything but VietNamese!) and followed my father's footsteps to Korea, about 12 years after he was there...

381 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:30:30pm

I suppose it must be all part of God's plan to trick the critically-minded into eternal damnation. One wonders why He bothered sending us here in the first place, though. Entertainment, I guess.

382 PSGInfinity  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:30:32pm

re: #274 Charles

My attitude is simple, if you don't want to be here, and it's so unpleasant that you just have to complain about it all the time, while using my software and my bandwidth, just don't comment.
[SNIP]

Precisely. I don't like these ID/Creationism/Science foodfights, however serious and well-intentioned they are. I don't comment. Not a coincidence.

383 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:30:44pm

re: #361 Thanos

Spot on re selling big time...people want to take their minds off the realities we are facing that are so hard to deal with, and thus they embrace people like him, and distract themselves..a new cult is formed.

I think in a different time, he would be doing a TV commercial late at night flogging the book.

Bet he worships at the feet of Albore..yuck, what a thought.

384 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:30:55pm

hey ya'll
been reading the thread and thought is was time for a feel good story
guns are good
to quote Iron Fist "when seconds count... the cops are just minutes away"

385 PSGInfinity  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:31:43pm

re: #303 FrogMarch

a spark of good news? a spark of sanity?

Bush Considers Bankruptcy for GM, Chrysler

Well, President Bush DOES have an MBA from Harvard...

386 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:31:50pm

re: #296 avanti

To be honest I feel like the creationist in the room on that issue, and would be wasting my breath in the opposite direction. With but a few exceptions, science is on my side, and I'd fighting faith that it's wrong. The EPA calls it climate change since that's more discriptive of what warming causes. I fought this out in another thread for a bit, but got mocked and dinged down so fast I figured I'd better get out of Dodge.
In a way it's sad that Gore took up the issue, that made it automatically a dead issue on the right even though Newt and GW have come around.

Actually, the wheels are beginning to fall off the climate-change wagon, if you care to spend some time researching it. I think one of the biggest "tells" is that the so-called "scientific consensus" seems to support but one remedy: get on board with the Kyoto Accord, and punish the use of carbon-containing fuels by mandating the use of carbon credits or some kind of cap-and-trade system. If AGW were indeed an undisputed scientific observation, apparent to any who chose to make the observations, then there would undoubtedly be a whole gamut of proposed solutions to the problem.

Consider the matter of asteroid collisions with Earth. We know they have happened in the past, and caused, or at least contributed to, mass extinction events. We also know that such collisions are likely to occur in the future, and that such an event could be catastrophic to life as we know it. There is really no debate about the possibility. But there is debate about what action to take to prevent or mitigate such an event. Some people recommend using nuclear bombs to shatter those asteroids whose orbits take them on a collision course with Earth; we might still get a rain of debris, but the planet-killing impact would be prevented. Others suggest we simply bolt a rocket motor to the asteroid, and apply thrust to alter its orbit. Thrust in any direction, if applied early enough, would alter the orbit enough to prevent a collision, this go-round at least.

In the AGW world, this debate about potential solutions/remedies doesn't exist; the proponents of AGW theory have progressed straight to the "nuclear option" of shutting down our legacy industries in order to "save the planet." This isn't even remotely scientific; it's Gaia-worship dressed up as Science, just like Intelligent Design is Genesis Literalism dressed up as Science. And in both cases, there is money to be made by the operators of the scam. Discovery Institute sells "textbooks", and hires out "expert witnesses" to lawsuits fighting the imposition of ID in school curricula, and AlGore makes money selling "carbon credits", and Maurice Strong makes more money because his China-based industries, not subject to carbon taxes, can out-compete those in the West which are so crippled.

387 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:31:55pm

re: #375 Sharmuta

I think the lying part is counterproductive to their intent. Foolish on multiple levels.

388 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:32:02pm

re: #280 NY Nana

Attacking Charles is not the quickest way to get banned here, Wrath...picking fights and being hostile, insulting and kidnapping a thread any number of times is, I think.

You have been in a bad mood, or something for about a week, and LGF is not Lucy's Lemonade Stand...It is better to just chill when you are so antagonistic, and come back to post when whatever has you so hostile dealt with.

You are attacking people left and right, and it just is not right. LGF is not a wrestling match, damn it.

Before you get into more arguments, try reading your posts for the past week or 10 days, and see why we are upset, me included.

Yes, most of us are opinionated, or I don't think we would be here in the first place, but flame wars are just not needed. There is enough going on in the world to be sick over...and LGF is not a clinic.

This is a great post. I just wanted to say that.

389 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:32:26pm

re: #356 Ben Hur

I know. That is why I am doing a strategic withdraw. to the previous thread

390 Steffan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:33:49pm

re: #347 Charles

I've noticed that a lot of creationists seem to be trying to divert the argument into climate change, maybe because they sense that it has more resonance and they're trying to hitch a ride. The Lousiana bill goes out of its way to mention global warmening as one of the 'theories' that needs to have its alternative taught.

Of course. Global warmenism is as much of a fundie religion as creationism, 9/11 troofers and Nirth Certifikit believers. They use the same arguments and remarkably similar logic.

Heinlein said, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." There's some evidence that RAH knew his subject well.

391 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:34:01pm

re: #370 opnion

Heh. Saying almost anything about religion can trigger outrage in some folks.

392 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:34:29pm

re: #378 CynicalConservative

Sure it is, regardless of what we do or do not do.

It's an interesting ride - damn but it's seeming to get colder.

393 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:34:50pm

re: #372 Joan

! and where could I learn more about this? sounds like Tom Clancy

There were two books published after the 20-year anniversary, and they both reached the same conclusion, although there is some 'reading between the lines' and 'connecting the dots', because rationally enough the details on an encrypting-machine being tricked out to ALWAYS SEND its true value, thereby allowing the near-instantaneous decoding of every transmission (and the Americans DID decode, after the ChiComs and KorComs started using their ill-gotten booty) so go to your favorite used-bookstore and look for books on the Pueblo Incident, circa 1989-1990 ...

I used to know the names of the books, carried them with me for 17 years or so...

394 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:35:04pm

re: #387 jaunte

I think the lying part is counterproductive to their intent. Foolish on multiple levels.

There's even a verse in the Bible where Jesus tells his followers that some will think they're doing his work, but He will tell them they know Him not. That always comes back to me on these threads.

395 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:35:19pm

re: #392 Bobibutu

It's an interesting ride - damn but it's seeming to get colder.

Yeah, had a week of snow here in Portland, with more to come. Gimme my share of Gorebull Warming dammit

396 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:35:28pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

I miss seeing you around.

/There's always his avatar.

397 Learned Mother of Zion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:35:33pm

The Challenge of Creation by Rabbi Nathan Slifkin, who got into a lot of trouble with some hard-core ID'er for endorsing evolution as not incompatible with Jewish belief.

398 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:36:06pm

re: #390 Steffan

Of course. Global warmenism is as much of a fundie religion as creationism, 9/11 troofers and Nirth Certifikit believers. They use the same arguments and remarkably similar logic.

Heinlein said, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." There's some evidence that RAH knew his subject well.

The Climate Change Group is as unreasonable as any religious fundamentalist group. At some point you get insults.

399 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:36:38pm

re: #336 jwb7605

Great news! Linky?
Can you post that next door (open comments)?
There's a bunch of people who are ascaird of entering this thread.


Got an E-Mail from some anti-illegal immigration outfit that said the Office of the Pardon Attorney was reviewing the case. I didn't save it because I figured it would be old news to LGF.

400 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:36:42pm

re: #4 WrathofG-d

BTW: I still don't get that picture.

Perhaps you get it by now, but in case nobody has clarified, before I read the rest of the thread, the painter is reconstructing the original intent which I will interpret as passing on wisdom.

401 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:36:53pm

re: #398 opnion

The Climate Change Group is as unreasonable as any religious fundamentalist group. At some point you get insults.

Typically earlier than later.

402 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:37:07pm

re: #325 MandyManners

I don't have a new Bentley. Can I use it to buff my old one?

You can also use a polar bear rug for posing in the buff.

If you do, please post pictures.

403 Sunlight  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:37:14pm
404 infidel Alan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:38:43pm

So Caroline Kennedy wants to be appointed a NY Senator. Well why the hell not--Caligula appointed his horse to the Roman Senate.

405 Throbert McGee  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:38:57pm

re: #316 Ben Hur

I don't know why that's a link.

Simple: The hamsters saw a string of W's at the beginning and assumed it was a URL beginning with www. (even though you'd forgotten the period) -- and so they did their best to auto-link it for you.

406 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:04pm
407 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:17pm

Goodnight.

408 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:29pm

re: #388 Bloodnok

Thank you! Are the Celts playing tonight?

409 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:42pm

re: #404 infidel Alan

So Caroline Kennedy wants to be appointed a NY Senator. Well why the hell not--Caligula appointed his horse to the Roman Senate.

Instead of a horse, they're appointing a jackass.

410 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:42pm

re: #382 PSGInfinity

Precisely. I don't like these ID/Creationism/Science foodfights, however serious and well-intentioned they are. I don't comment. Not a coincidence.

Is that because you have nothing to say, or because you can't while you are in your closet?

411 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:43pm

re: #401 CynicalConservative

Typically earlier than later.


Yup, it really goes to not being able to support their arguements.
When logic fails just use insults. Once one resorts to insults they have lost.

412 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:39:57pm

re: #405 Throbert McGee

Simple: The hamsters saw a string of W's at the beginning and assumed it was a URL beginning with www. (even though you'd forgotten the period) -- and so they did their best to auto-link it for you.

Aha!

Thanks!

No more howls of Wrath, then.

Goodnight!

413 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:40:15pm

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

414 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:40:27pm

re: #404 infidel Alan


Aren't there enough Kennedys for every state to have their very own.

415 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:40:37pm

re: #403 Sunlight

"...to PREVENT chaos..."?

Sunlight, Zimbabwe full of starving, cholera-and-typhoid infected sufferers and people pretending to be police or army pretending to protect Mugabe who's pretending to be a 'leader' with inflation at 10,000% per month...

Can't get much more chaotic than that... "I NEED FOOD" is a real de-civilizer!

416 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:40:48pm

re: #395 CynicalConservative

Yeah, had a week of snow here in Portland, with more to come. Gimme my share of Gorebull Warming dammit

Well - Portland? You had it coming - ;-) LV - that's another.

417 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:40:58pm

re: #386 Alberta Oil Peon

Consider the matter of asteroid collisions with Earth... Some people recommend using nuclear bombs to shatter those asteroids whose orbits take them on a collision course with Earth; we might still get a rain of debris, but the planet-killing impact would be prevented.

Not to put this into nerd overdrive, but nobody recommends that. The problem is that the energy released is the same, it's just dispersed over a wide area. I highly recommend the first two-thirds of Stephen Baxer's book Evolution, which (along with a fascinating blend of solid evolutionary evidence intertwined with speculative fiction) contains a riveting account of several trillion tons of dust falling upon the Earth--in this case, it was the ejecta of the asteroid or comet impact that wiped out the dinosaurs, and geological evidence suggests that it quite literally lit the world on fire.

If you do happen to read it, feel free to skip the modern and post-modern narrative; Brin describes a billion-year history in which life has ingeniously evolved to meet every challenge, then imagines a future where it inexplicably gives up.

418 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:41:15pm

re: #411 opnion

Yup, it really goes to not being able to support their arguements.
When logic fails just use insults. Once one resorts to insults they have lost.

So that means they've lost before they even started... ;-)

419 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:41:16pm

re: #404 infidel Alan

So Caroline Kennedy wants to be appointed a NY Senator. Well why the hell not--Caligula appointed his horse to the Roman Senate.

She is a Princess of Camelot & that will be enough.

420 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:41:31pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Where do you see that?

421 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:41:37pm

re: #408 NY Nana

Thank you! Are the Celts playing tonight?

No problem. The pleasure was mine for having read it. Nope no Celts tonight (won last night and may never lose another game! riggght.)

422 JHW  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:01pm

re: #372 Joan

re: #393 Karridine

I read a couple of those too and have forgotten the titles, but I found this at Alibris that sounds vaguely familiar.
The Pueblo Surrender: A Covert Action by the National Security Agency

I haven't any idea how accurate it is.

423 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:03pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Ummm, say what?

424 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:07pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Do you mean Creationists?

425 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:38pm

re: #424 opnion

I mean what I posted.

426 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:40pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

You will need to try to be more explicit, if you expect to be taken seriously.

427 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:55pm

re: #416 Bobibutu

Well - Portland? You had it coming - ;-) LV - that's another.

Ya, well... moonbat haven here, I'm part of the minority.

428 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:42:56pm

re: #413 rightwingva

Actually it's the Discovery Institute that's aligning with Islamists like Harun Yahya, please don't lie, you know what the good book says about that right?

429 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:43:04pm
430 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:43:10pm

re: #416 Bobibutu

Well - Portland? You had it coming - ;-) LV - that's another.

Hey!

431 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:44:50pm

re: #422 JHW

Give it a shot... I cannot and will not either confirm or deny ANYTHING here on LGF, but you know where to find me if you have questions...

/and I'm interested on how good a job that book makes of it all...

432 Throbert McGee  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:45:26pm

G'nite, all -- I need to turn off the [fornicating] computer for at least a few hours so that I can force meself to work on Christmas crafting.

433 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:45:32pm

re: #417 Christopher Luebcke

The other thing to take into account is the Deccan Plateau explosion / emulsion. It's in the proper time frame whereas the aforementioned meteor preceded the K-T extinction by 300000 yrs.

434 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:45:34pm

re: #425 rightwingva

I mean what I posted.

That makes no sense, Christian & Islamic Creationists are making common cause to get access to school curriculum. Why wold a Fundamentalist Muslim who believes that the Kaaba is a meteor from the Garden of Eden?

435 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:45:37pm

re: #426 Naso Tang

I don't need to be "taken seriously". Several of the posters here have already made the case for Al Gore and for Jihadists. Several posters are aligning themselves up and don't even know it. I have read LGF for years and posted only briefly, when it is evident what is happening. If my post confuses you, you aren't paying attention.

436 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:46:01pm

re: #425 rightwingva

I mean what I posted.

Oooohhh! Would you mind showing some evidence of that.

437 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:46:22pm

re: #427 CynicalConservative

Ya, well... moonbat haven here, I'm part of the minority.

Lordy - the entire west coastline - and there are a few of us here - come to our next person to person meet up - get down.

438 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:46:32pm

re: #428 Thanos

Typical. I make no mention of Discovery Institute, I have no allegiance to them and then BAM, I am auto-magically linked to them. Thanks, proves my point.

439 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:46:40pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Islamic fundamentalists are actually aligning with American creationists.

See: The Discovery Institute Collaborates with Turkish Creationists

440 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:46:49pm

re: #429 buzzsawmonkey

Now, now. Caroline's not horse-faced at all, hardly.


The females really got cheated in the Kennedy gene pool.

441 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:47:04pm

re: #414 BignJames

Aren't there enough Kennedys for every state to have their very own.

Hmm. Like Continental Hapsburgs

442 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:47:04pm

re: #435 rightwingva

No, once again it's the ID crowd at Discovery Institutute that meets with Islamic fundamentalist creationists, please get your facts straight.

443 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:47:04pm

re: #430 VegasRick

Hey!

Feeling a bit frosty?

444 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:47:17pm

re: #399 Rancher

Got an E-Mail from some anti-illegal immigration outfit that said the Office of the Pardon Attorney was reviewing the case. I didn't save it because I figured it would be old news to LGF.

I hope it's not wishful thinking.
I'm one of those right-wingers that thinks they got a bum rap.

445 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #438 rightwingva

No, it proves you lack of knowledge.

446 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:47:59pm

re: #439 Sharmuta

So, there is Sharmuta, wondering where you were. You do this every time, thanks! I post something and you link to that article. I don't even have to feed you peanuts!

447 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:48:27pm

re: #57 wolfie

You haven't read many modern history textbooks, have you?

I've read a fair amount of real history. Some of it mistaken, later to be set straight by other historians armed with better access to archives or a keener mind. History textbooks? Not so much. Are they informative, good reading? Should I put them on my Christmas list?

/naif

448 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:48:50pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Go piss up a rope.

450 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:49:26pm

re: #442 Thanos

And there is Thanos! I was wondering when I would see a response. No, you are missing the big picture. Say Thanos, since I have no connection what so ever to the Discoverer Institute, and I believe Genesis, have I aligned myself with Islamic Fundamentalism or the Far Left? Easy question for you to answer, sweetie.

451 JHW  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:49:33pm

re: #431 Karridine

One thing I'll never forget from that incident, which I'm sure you know well. is when the North Koreans took those propaganda photos of the sailors , every one of them with a middle finger resting on the table they were seated at.Inscrutable American sign language . I believe they got the hell beat out of them when the NKs found out the meaning. Brave guys, they held out honorably in captivity.

452 Learned Mother of Zion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:49:33pm

I can't understand what it is about these ID/Evolution threads that causes meltdowns. Do people really think that evolution challenges their faith in G-D? They don't have too much faith, IMO.

453 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:49:54pm

Are you trying to say someone here is aligned with Islamic fundamentalists RWVA? If so please elaborate.

454 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:02pm

re: #435 rightwingva

I don't need to be "taken seriously". Several of the posters here have already made the case for Al Gore and for Jihadists. Several posters are aligning themselves up and don't even know it. I have read LGF for years and posted only briefly, when it is evident what is happening. If my post confuses you, you aren't paying attention.

455 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:24pm

re: #443 Bobibutu

Feeling a bit frosty?

Yep, and was really cool last night!

456 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:35pm

re: #433 Thanos

The other thing to take into account is the Deccan Plateau explosion / emulsion. It's in the proper time frame whereas the aforementioned meteor preceded the K-T extinction by 300000 yrs.

I thought that the plateau was directly opposite the Mayan Gulf strike, and that it erupted when the shock wave from the hit, propagating through the earth, refocused at the other end.

457 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:42pm

re: #435 rightwingva

I don't need to be "taken seriously". Several of the posters here have already made the case for Al Gore and for Jihadists. Several posters are aligning themselves up and don't even know it. I have read LGF for years and posted only briefly, when it is evident what is happening. If my post confuses you, you aren't paying attention.

Ok one the first part; I won't take you seriously and neither will most.

On the second part, let us know when the poster in question know what they are doing and are worth considering.

On the third part, you are right, none of your 169 posts in the past 4 years have come to my attention...what can I say?

458 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:47pm

re: #450 rightwingva

And there is Thanos! I was wondering when I would see a response. No, you are missing the big picture. Say Thanos, since I have no connection what so ever to the Discoverer Institute, and I believe Genesis, have I aligned myself with Islamic Fundamentalism or the Far Left? Easy question for you to answer, sweetie.

First you accuse us of aligning with Islamic fundamentalists, then you accuse us of accusing you of aligning with Islamic fundamentalists. Did you have a point, or are you getting to it soon?

459 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:48pm

re: #437 Bobibutu

Lordy - the entire west coastline - and there are a few of us here - come to our next person to person meet up - get down.

True dat! Waiting for the moonbat citing of "The Day after Tomorrow" //Global warming causes Global Cooling

460 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:50:58pm

re: #450 rightwingva

You are the one pimping their line, and they've come here many times under many names and lied. Please explain why we should believe you?

461 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:51:04pm

re: #435 rightwingva

I've read your post, and would like you to simply say what you have to say. It is not transparent to me, at least; it is cryptic

462 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:51:14pm

As if to prove my earlier point, that it's not the supporters of evolution being rude and insulting, but the other way around, here is rightwingva. Thanks!

463 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:51:14pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Umm...the Islamic fundamentalists are activist creationists, as Charles has repeatedly pointed out with his posts on Harun Yahya.

464 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:51:38pm

re: #453 Thanos

Your post 100% that to believe in Genesis = support of Discovery Institute = meeting up with Turkish Islamic Fundamentalists. A = B = C. I disagree. I see it differently, that is all.

465 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:51:45pm

re: #448 gclaghorn

Go piss up a rope.

I believe that is a copyright owned by Mandy. You need to pay to use it.

466 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:52:04pm

re: #465 Naso Tang

I believe that is a copyright owned by Mandy. You need to pay to use it.

I apologize. But it had to be said. Sorry, Mandy!

467 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:52:10pm

re: #446 rightwingva

So, there is Sharmuta, wondering where you were. You do this every time, thanks! I post something and you link to that article. I don't even have to feed you peanuts!

Jackass.

468 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:52:11pm

re: #448 gclaghorn

Go piss up a rope.

Channeling Mandy? :-)

469 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:52:20pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

What in the world?!

470 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:52:40pm

re: #456 lostlakehiker

I thought that the plateau was directly opposite the Mayan Gulf strike, and that it erupted when the shock wave from the hit, propagating through the earth, refocused at the other end.

Well I thought that too, but new magnetic isochrons etc. seem to indicate a 300 k disparity in the two events, there was a recent article on that.

471 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:53:35pm

re: #454 opnion

I was answering the above & it did not post.

472 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:53:43pm

re: #334 Thanos

I don't like freaks opening discussions that require complex investigation, you get Al Gore on one side and freaks like this one the other end, then no real discourse is possible.
The heavy political agenda and the carbon cap ponzi scheme also encourages one of the worst energy source we use today, coal. Gore comes from a coal state.

Thanos, I haven't read that book, and I sure don't know what inferences Felix is drawing from them, but geomagnetic reversals are an observable fact. Numerous paleomagnetic studies have been made on lava rock on the ocean floors, and alternating domains of normal and reverse polarity are seen everywhere, and can be correlated. Based upon the observed duration of these domains, we are statistically overdue for a reversal.

Geomagnetic reversals are a natural, ongoing feature of Earth's history, and are much more numerous than mass extinction events, IIRC, so it seems to me to be unlikely that the former causes the latter. But it could be that events on the Sun, or perhaps a supernova in our region of the galaxy could cause a huge cosmic ray flux that would be inimical to life on Earth if it hit us while our magnetic field was "down for maintenance."

Here is some food for thought.

473 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:53:55pm

re: #467 Joan

Jackass, because I mention he links to the article, that he linked to? Wow. I guess I am a jackass for pointing it out. yes, I am a jackass. Do you feel better about yourself now?

474 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:02pm

re: #464 rightwingva

So do you think that "Itelligent Design" should be taught in Science class? If so or if not, then why or why not?

475 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:08pm

Master Shake seems to be quite the stealth dinger tonight...

Step up and be heard sir or maam!

476 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:30pm

re: #473 rightwingva

Jackass, because I mention he links to the article, that he linked to? Wow. I guess I am a jackass for pointing it out. yes, I am a jackass. Do you feel better about yourself now?

You're the one who came here just to piss and moan. Do you feel better about yourself now?

477 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:33pm

re: #446 rightwingva

So, there is Sharmuta, wondering where you were. You do this every time, thanks! I post something and you link to that article. I don't even have to feed you peanuts!

When you post demonstrable untruths, expect to see other people post evidentiary refutations.

478 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:39pm

re: #435 rightwingva

I don't need to be "taken seriously". Several of the posters here have already made the case for Al Gore and for Jihadists. Several posters are aligning themselves up and don't even know it. I have read LGF for years and posted only briefly, when it is evident what is happening. If my post confuses you, you aren't paying attention.

You're the one not paying attention.

479 3 wood  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:52pm

Another credit card company is trying to get a chunk of the bail out money

Discover could get up to $1.2 billion under TARP

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Discover Financial Services (DFS.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), which is seeking to convert to a bank holding company, could receive up to $1.2 billion under the U.S. government's financial bailout program, the credit card company's CEO said on Thursday.

"Based on our size, we would qualify for between $400 million and $1.2 billion," Chief Executive David Nelms told Reuters in an interview.

He said Discover would use the funds to strengthen its capital base and expand its lending, but he did not rule out acquisitions.

480 Desert Dog  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:54:53pm

re: #472 Alberta Oil Peon

Thanos, I haven't read that book, and I sure don't know what inferences Felix is drawing from them, but geomagnetic reversals are an observable fact. Numerous paleomagnetic studies have been made on lava rock on the ocean floors, and alternating domains of normal and reverse polarity are seen everywhere, and can be correlated. Based upon the observed duration of these domains, we are statistically overdue for a reversal.

Geomagnetic reversals are a natural, ongoing feature of Earth's history, and are much more numerous than mass extinction events, IIRC, so it seems to me to be unlikely that the former causes the latter. But it could be that events on the Sun, or perhaps a supernova in our region of the galaxy could cause a huge cosmic ray flux that would be inimical to life on Earth if it hit us while our magnetic field was "down for maintenance."

Here is some food for thought.

All I want to know is will my tinfoil hat protect me?

481 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:10pm

re: #474 Thanos

You have a short term memory Thanos. Have I said this statement? Did I say, to quote you "Itelligent Design" should be taught? Hmmm?

482 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:15pm

re: #471 opnion

I was answering the above & it did not post.

Right, sure, that's what happened. Likely story.
///

483 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:16pm

re: #473 rightwingva

I'm not a man.

/Really though the avatar would help with that...

484 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:17pm

re: #450 rightwingva

And there is Thanos! I was wondering when I would see a response. No, you are missing the big picture. Say Thanos, since I have no connection what so ever to the Discoverer Institute, and I believe Genesis, have I aligned myself with Islamic Fundamentalism or the Far Left? Easy question for you to answer, sweetie.

To paraphrase your #435 you may be aligning (yourself) up and don't even know it.

485 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:35pm

re: #446 rightwingva

Asshole.

486 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:41pm

re: #363 MandyManners

Waiting for a snow storm tomorrow...and getting ready for Hanukka.

487 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:49pm

re: #473 rightwingva

Never felt better myself; how about you?

488 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:52pm

re: #483 Sharmuta

Er- thought. PIMF

489 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:58pm

re: #480 Desert Dog

All I want to know is will my tinfoil hat protect me?

Always!
//

490 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:55:59pm

re: #472 Alberta Oil Peon

I did not say they don't occur, but Robert Felix is an architect, not a scientist, and is pimping pseudo science. If you don't believe me do a search on his name and see how many freakazoid conspiracy sites link to him.

491 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:56:02pm

re: #433 Thanos

I'm not getting that Chicxulub was 300,000 years prior to KT--a link would be great, I'm not saying you're wrong--but regardless, that was a fairly crappy half-a-million years or so.

Well, at least if we move to Mars we get away from the tectonic plates. Those asteroids, though...

492 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:56:42pm

re: #485 MandyManners

Wow Mandy. I have defended you extensively in threads over the last year, and with one post, I am an "asshole". Thanks! That made my night!

493 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:56:42pm

re: #481 rightwingva

You have a short term memory Thanos. Have I said this statement? Did I say, to quote you "Itelligent Design" should be taught? Hmmm?

He never said you did, moron! He's asking you if that is what you think!

494 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:56:44pm

re: #485 MandyManners

Asshole.

tsk tsk.

495 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:56:51pm
496 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:57:02pm

re: #482 VegasRick

Right, sure, that's what happened. Likely story.
///

Alright, I'm gonna lawyer up.

497 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:57:32pm

re: #481 rightwingva

I asked a question, just answer it here and now?

498 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:57:45pm

re: #417 Christopher Luebcke

Not to put this into nerd overdrive, but nobody recommends that. The problem is that the energy released is the same, it's just dispersed over a wide area. I highly recommend the first two-thirds of Stephen Baxer's book Evolution, which (along with a fascinating blend of solid evolutionary evidence intertwined with speculative fiction) contains a riveting account of several trillion tons of dust falling upon the Earth--in this case, it was the ejecta of the asteroid or comet impact that wiped out the dinosaurs, and geological evidence suggests that it quite literally lit the world on fire.

If you do happen to read it, feel free to skip the modern and post-modern narrative; Brin describes a billion-year history in which life has ingeniously evolved to meet every challenge, then imagines a future where it inexplicably gives up.

But it's fairly easy to make an asteroid miss if you have decades of warning. Let's say you can compute its trajectory to a T. You have all the data: mass of sun, effect of the various planets' gravity, effect of solar light pressure, effect of solar wind, magnetic effects if any.

It's going to hit.

Now, dust it down with titanium dioxide. Its reflectivity increases. The solar light pressure increases, because instead of just hitting and sticking, the photons rebound. Double the momentum transfer!

This tiny little bit of extra pressure, exerted over decades, will be enough to alter the trajectory. For the asteroid to be on a collision course is a one in millions thing; there are many ways to miss, but few ways to hit. Any old change in trajectory will make it miss.

If that doesn't do the trick, brake its rotation and dust just one side down. Shoot off H-bombs inside carefully dug cavities on one side, making the ejecta into rocket exhaust. There are ever more expensive and drastic things to do if time is short.

If you have just hours before impact, bend over, clasp your ankles, etc. By that point, the world's whole arsenal of nukes won't make a lick of difference.

499 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:58:14pm

There's one in every evolution thread. Geez!

500 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:58:17pm

re: #491 Christopher Luebcke

I'm not getting that Chicxulub was 300,000 years prior to KT--a link would be great, I'm not saying you're wrong--but regardless, that was a fairly crappy half-a-million years or so.

Well, at least if we move to Mars we get away from the tectonic plates. Those asteroids, though...

The article was in the links yesterday, I'll see if I can find it. It was a "wow" for me.

501 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:58:50pm

Good evening LGF.
Whassup?

502 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:00pm

re: #497 Thanos

What don't you look at my previous posts Thanos? Are you really that lazy?

503 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:03pm

re: #455 VegasRick

Yep, and was really cool last night!

We ran around at 40 below in T-shirts taking out the garbage - not more than for a few minutes or so and then at - 240 with wind chill in AK up on the North Slope. With appropriate attire.

504 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:22pm

re: #502 rightwingva

What don't you look at my previous posts Thanos? Are you really that lazy?

Why don't you just answer his freakin' question? Are you really that lazy?

505 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:34pm

re: #502 rightwingva

Are you going to continue to be insulting?

506 lifeofthemind  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:38pm

re: #422 JHW

re: #393 Karridine

I read a couple of those too and have forgotten the titles, but I found this at Alibris that sounds vaguely familiar.
The Pueblo Surrender: A Covert Action by the National Security Agency

I haven't any idea how accurate it is.

I know Liston's book and I knew the man who wrote the orders for the mission, I can not talk more about this here, for my own privacy mostly, but Liston was full of garbage. He's a kook, ignore him.

507 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:38pm

Who's his buddy, Master Shake?

508 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:50pm

re: #496 opnion

Alright, I'm gonna lawyer up.

I think I better leave now.

509 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 6:59:52pm

re: #473 rightwingva

Jackass, because I mention he links to the article, that he linked to? Wow. I guess I am a jackass for pointing it out. yes, I am a jackass. Do you feel better about yourself now?

Jackass.

510 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:05pm
511 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:09pm

re: #505 Sharmuta

Are you going to continue to be insulting?

Probably.

512 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:09pm

re: #502 rightwingva

What don't you look at my previous posts Thanos? Are you really that lazy?

Yes, I am that lazy, you are making assertions, links please. Who's the jihadist you are referring to here at LGF? Who's supporting Al Gore?

513 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:23pm

re: #492 rightwingva

Wow Mandy. I have defended you extensively in threads over the last year, and with one post, I am an "asshole". Thanks! That made my night!

You insulted Sharmuta for no good reason.

514 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:26pm

re: #503 Bobibutu

We ran around at 40 below in T-shirts taking out the garbage - not more than for a few minutes or so and then at - 240 with wind chill in AK up on the North Slope. With appropriate attire.

Damn!

515 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:29pm

re: #507 MandyManners

Who's his buddy, Master Shake?

Woot, woot!

516 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:00:57pm

re: #507 MandyManners

Who's his buddy, Master Shake?

Socky socky?

517 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:01:11pm

re: #505 Sharmuta

Insulting? What have I said that is insulting? Did I call you a jackass? Did I call you an asshole? Did I make assumptions? Did I post a false conclusion as Thanos did?
The answer, is, 'no'.

518 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:01:18pm

re: #507 MandyManners

Who's his buddy, Master Shake?

Hey, Master Shake! Gonna tell us why you keep up-dinging the troll's posts?

519 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:01:19pm

re: #482 VegasRick

Right, sure, that's what happened. Likely story.
///

Hmmm...
I'm lurking this thread (mostly), and just posted this from an experience last night on the "Open" thread.

Hmmm...

520 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:01:25pm

re: #508 VegasRick

I think I better leave now.

Nah, I'll settle out of court. Just make me the next Senator from Illinois.

521 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:01:31pm

re: #496 opnion

Alright, I'm gonna lawyer up.

Run Away! Run Away!

522 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #517 rightwingva

Insulting? What have I said that is insulting? Did I call you a jackass? Did I call you an asshole? Did I make assumptions? Did I post a false conclusion as Thanos did?
The answer, is, 'no'.

Ennnhhh...sorry, that's incorrect. Here's your consolation prize...

523 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #513 MandyManners

You insulted Sharmuta for no good reason.

No- there's always a reason they insult me. They hate having facts brought into the discussion. Honestly- it's got to be rough when the fact islamic creationists are working with American creationists is linked repeatedly.

524 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:02:22pm

re: #517 rightwingva

Insulting? What have I said that is insulting? Did I call you a jackass? Did I call you an asshole? Did I make assumptions? Did I post a false conclusion as Thanos did?
The answer, is, 'no'.

Got any peanuts?

525 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:02:25pm

re: #456 lostlakehiker

I thought that the plateau was directly opposite the Mayan Gulf strike, and that it erupted when the shock wave from the hit, propagating through the earth, refocused at the other end.

I've heard/read the same suggested about Hellas Basin and Olympus Mons on Mars, though I don't know if that's anything more than uneducated speculation. Both of those features, though, also represent spectacularly bad days.

526 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:02:41pm

re: #503 Bobibutu

We ran around at 40 below in T-shirts taking out the garbage - not more than for a few minutes or so and then at - 240 with wind chill in AK up on the North Slope. With appropriate attire.

Now that has to be a typo.

527 JHW  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:02:55pm

re: #506 lifeofthemind

Thanks, I'm glad to get your opinion on it .

528 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:03pm

re: #524 Sharmuta

Here's two, for your effort.

Oh, and I am glad I am a troll, that really takes that cake (or peanuts).

529 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:05pm

re: #517 rightwingva

Also- you called Thanos "lazy". That wasn't nice or accurate.

530 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:10pm

re: #517 rightwingva

Insulting? What have I said that is insulting? Did I call you a jackass? Did I call you an asshole? Did I make assumptions? Did I post a false conclusion as Thanos did?
The answer, is, 'no'.

You are deliberately being a horse's ass.
And a jackass.

531 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:10pm

Oh, and hi y'all, WAZZUUUP!

And all that.

532 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:36pm

re: #528 rightwingva

Here's two, for your effort.

Oh, and I am glad I am a troll, that really takes that cake (or peanuts).

GAZE

533 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:39pm

re: #515 CynicalConservative

Woot, woot!

re: #516 CynicalConservative

Socky socky?

I've seen it post before.

534 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:43pm

re: #514 VegasRick

Damn!

It paid well - still think it does.

535 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:47pm

re: #531 Occasional Reader

It's been a wild thread with bannings and all sorts of fun.

536 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:49pm

re: #495 Iron Fist

Almost everything has a political component. One can argue that some things shouldn't be that way, but it's a long way from "shouldn't" to "doesn't".

And this issue has been controversial from its inception. Politics were bound to have a place in its debate. Education itself has politics that surround nearly all aspects taught. The choice of text books, courses to offer, what teachers can and cannot say, and soforth are political decisions that must be met.

Imagine if you brought one of the women from the Moonlight Bunnyranch to give a class on, say, Ethics in the Art Community, you know that there would be hell to pay for even booking her gig. What she was actually teaching would become suspect. Most people would be uncomfterable with her Presentation, even if the principle thing that she was there to teach was how to find a better life than living in a whorehouse.

Of course, the worst case scenario for this would be her hooking up with two or three promising young people.

The politics are there. They're impossible to ignore, and they will determine if she is allowed to teach or not, and what she is permitted to teach if she makes it that far. Further there would be debate about appropriate attire, classroom decorum, and on, and on.

Because the voters will demand it. Many will want her dismissed, others may want rigid codes of conuct, and someone in the pack will be envying his son, and wishing thathe was the one in uniform, ready to fight.

And the fight would get very nasty if the dancer didn't leave the community.

It would be an interesting experiment.

Empirical science does not intentionally attempt to prostitute truth for the sake of advancing the cause of dogmatism. Some empirical scientists may indeed endeavor to do so, but when they do, they are abandoning and betraying their discipline for the sake of personal profit or religious conviction. Just like the so-called non-practicing 'scientists' one can find on the Disco Institute's payroll.

537 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:03:55pm
538 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:00pm

re: #521 CynicalConservative

Run Away! Run Away!

I'm lettin it go, cause Rick is going to make me a Senator from Illinois.

539 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:08pm

re: #491 Christopher Luebcke

I'm not getting that Chicxulub was 300,000 years prior to KT--a link would be great, I'm not saying you're wrong--but regardless, that was a fairly crappy half-a-million years or so.

Well, at least if we move to Mars we get away from the tectonic plates. Those asteroids, though...

Those nasty tectonic plates are what have kept Earth from being like Mars. It is what we would consider curbside recycling. Without it you are buried in crap.

And as to asteroids (big ones), without them we wouldn't have the Moon either and that would mean some big changes, probably even with tectonics.

Bottom line is you make the most of what you got, and be grateful for it.

540 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:25pm

re: #520 opnion

Nah, I'll settle out of court. Just make me the next Senator from Illinois.

I'll check ebay. Be right back.

541 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:34pm

re: #533 MandyManners

I've seen it post before.

New to me, thanks for the insight. Good evening BTW!

542 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:38pm

re: #517 rightwingva

Insulting? What have I said that is insulting? Did I call you a jackass? Did I call you an asshole? Did I make assumptions? Did I post a false conclusion as Thanos did?
The answer, is, 'no'.

The line about "feeding her peanuts" is an obvious reference to a monkey, as in an organ-grinder's monkey.

543 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:44pm

So who's socky is everyone piling on?

544 lifeofthemind  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:04:54pm

re: #527 JHW

Thanks, I'm glad to get your opinion on it .

Pleasure, have a good night.

545 VegasRick  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:05:01pm

re: #534 Bobibutu

It paid well - still think it does.

Good for you!

546 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:05:16pm

re: #543 Neo Con since 9-11

So who's socky is everyone piling on?

MasterShake

547 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:05:16pm

re: #538 opnion

I'm lettin it go, cause Rick is going to make me a Senator from Illinois.

Can I get in on that action?

548 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:05:27pm

re: #523 Sharmuta

No- there's always a reason they insult me. They hate having facts brought into the discussion. Honestly- it's got to be rough when the fact islamic creationists are working with American creationists is linked repeatedly.

Posting facts is not a good reason to call someone an asshole.

549 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:00pm

re: #531 Occasional Reader

Oh, and hi y'all, WAZZUUUP!

And all that.

*DUCK*

550 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:27pm
551 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:29pm

RWVA:
You are making vague assertions, and following with insults when questioned.
You said:

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!


Who were you referring too? Link please

You said:

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!


Who please? Got a link?

552 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:39pm

re: #540 VegasRick

I'll check ebay. Be right back.

Sounds good. Of course this is just a stepping stone. I intend to be President ,nice house & great pension

553 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:48pm

re: #541 CynicalConservative

New to me, thanks for the insight. Good evening BTW!

Yo. Glad to see you and Sage got things straight.

554 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:53pm

re: #537 buzzsawmonkey

Milhouse? Is that you?

Everything's coming up Milhouse!

555 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:55pm

re: #530 Joan

Ding Ding Ding! Now I am a jackass, an asshole, and a horse's ass. I stated a fact that many of you are missing, and the very best you can do is call me names. A year ago, many of you applauded my posts. A year later, if I say I am a believer in Genesis, I basically get the business end of a bat. I have stated more than once I don't support the Discovery Institute. But, you have become so blinded by what is and is not "acceptable" in these threads that you *immediately* trash me. *I* read what the far left is posting on a daily basis. I read what the Jihadi's are posting on a *daily* basis. I know it is uncomfortable for a few of you, but the cross hairs fall on folks like me. No big deal, I am big boy, with big boy pants.

556 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:06:59pm

re: #548 MandyManners

Posting facts is not a good reason to call someone an asshole.

I agree, but that is why they insult me, and others who do the same like Thanos and Sala. And Charles.

557 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:07:02pm

re: #498 lostlakehiker

Oh absolutely. If it's bright (like a comet) you could do the same but in reverse, say by a liberal application of iron filings to darken it up and reduce the photonic pressure. Or a gravity tug, where you just haul the world's biggest anvil to some reasonable distance from the threat, then hold it there with a nice, energy efficient ion engine for a decade or two while it's gravity incrementally pulls the threat off its orbital path (this is probably preferred to trying to actually plant a rocket, because the surface could be very loosely packed gravel (or ice) in microgravity environment).

I just wanted to point out that the whole "blow it out of the sky" approach isn't actually going to work, exciting though it would be to try.

558 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:07:05pm

re: #526 Occasional Reader

Now that has to be a typo.

The major danger occurs when working outdoors on the tundra or sea ice for sustained periods.
Also remember that wind chill factors can easily drop to triple digits below zero when travelling
on a snow machine at 30 mph.

[Link: www.arm.gov...]

559 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:07:44pm

re: #556 Sharmuta

I agree, but that is why they insult me, and others who do the same like Thanos and Sala. And Charles.

Freakin' juvenile.

560 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:08:00pm

Whoops. RWVA: The second quote in my last comment was supposed to be this:

#426 Naso Tang I don't need to be "taken seriously". Several of the posters here have already made the case for Al Gore and for Jihadists.

Who please? Got a link?

561 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:08:31pm

re: #553 MandyManners

Yo. Glad to see you and Sage got things straight.

Yeah, just a quick-type misunderstanding.

562 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:09:08pm

re: #555 rightwingva

Ding Ding Ding! Now I am a jackass, an asshole, and a horse's ass. I stated a fact that many of you are missing, and the very best you can do is call me names. A year ago, many of you applauded my posts. A year later, if I say I am a believer in Genesis, I basically get the business end of a bat. I have stated more than once I don't support the Discovery Institute. But, you have become so blinded by what is and is not "acceptable" in these threads that you *immediately* trash me. *I* read what the far left is posting on a daily basis. I read what the Jihadi's are posting on a *daily* basis. I know it is uncomfortable for a few of you, but the cross hairs fall on folks like me. No big deal, I am big boy, with big boy pants.

Oh, aren't you special?

563 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:09:27pm

re: #555 rightwingva

You don't support DI, but you support their agenda and their pimping of false dichotomy, that you can't believe in God and accept scientific fact at the same time. Now why is that?

564 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:09:29pm

re: #451 JHW

The NorKs broke 2-by-4s over their backs, enraged at the Americans' sly gesture!

Socialist societies HATE humor, HATE mocking and took out their hatred on their captives! One guy was permanently maimed...

565 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:09:41pm

re: #555 rightwingva

OK. Got that. Now, since you have been such a weenie poster before tonight, why don't you tell us, presumably again, what you actually think you mean as opposed to what you don't mean.

566 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:09:42pm

re: #555 rightwingva

Your first comment on this thread was:

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

This is a lie. For giving links that refute your lie, you tell me you don't even have to give me peanuts, but you want to claim victimhood status. Sorry- but you bring it on yourself when your opening comment is wrong on it's face and full of crap.

567 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:10:03pm

re: #559 MandyManners

I will have to say, MandyManners, there were situations in the past that I defended you to the hilt. I guess that doesn't matter anymore. Bash those that believe Genesis and let the chips fall where they lay. No big deal, like I said, I have followed this stuff since Charles went into a rage over Ben Stein's movie. This is Charles' blog and he can feel and respond however it pleases him. It has always been a privilege to post here.

568 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:10:25pm

re: #417 Christopher Luebcke

Not to put this into nerd overdrive, but nobody recommends that. The problem is that the energy released is the same, it's just dispersed over a wide area. I highly recommend the first two-thirds of Stephen Baxer's book Evolution, which (along with a fascinating blend of solid evolutionary evidence intertwined with speculative fiction) contains a riveting account of several trillion tons of dust falling upon the Earth--in this case, it was the ejecta of the asteroid or comet impact that wiped out the dinosaurs, and geological evidence suggests that it quite literally lit the world on fire.

If you do happen to read it, feel free to skip the modern and post-modern narrative; Brin describes a billion-year history in which life has ingeniously evolved to meet every challenge, then imagines a future where it inexplicably gives up.

If you nuked your asteroid early enough, and with enough energy to thoroughly scatter the debris, only that fraction of the debris which remained in the same orbit would go on to collide with Earth.

Nuke it too little, or too late, and all you do is turn a bullet into a cloud of buckshot.

569 opnion  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:10:25pm

Good night Lizards,

570 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:10:42pm

re: #507 MandyManners

Who's his buddy, Master Shake?

"I thought you were just gonna scare him!"

"Killing is scary!"

571 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:10:50pm

re: #563 Thanos

Again, you constantly draw your conclusions and project them on others. That is really not very scientific. It is kind of being a cad, for what its worth.

572 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:10:56pm

re: #567 rightwingva

This is just a big load of obfuscation. Why don't you answer the first question asked after you posted?

573 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:03pm

re: #567 rightwingva

Are you a sock of wrath? you were quite silent until the ban hammer fell.

574 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:11pm

re: #571 rightwingva

Again, you constantly draw your conclusions and project them on others. That is really not very scientific. It is kind of being a cad, for what its worth.

ANSWER HIS [SELF-DELETED] QUESTION!

575 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:16pm

re: #569 opnion

Good night Lizards,

Caio!

576 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:21pm

re: #567 rightwingva

Your past actions and comments don't excuse you from current actions and comments.

577 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:25pm

re: #567 rightwingva

I will have to say, MandyManners, there were situations in the past that I defended you to the hilt. I guess that doesn't matter anymore. Bash those that believe Genesis and let the chips fall where they lay. No big deal, like I said, I have followed this stuff since Charles went into a rage over Ben Stein's movie. This is Charles' blog and he can feel and respond however it pleases him. It has always been a privilege to post here.

Loyalty should not trump facticity. Whether someone is in the right or in the wrong does not depend on who one's friends are, but on what one's statements are.

578 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:44pm

re: #506 lifeofthemind

Thanks, Life. Will do.

Timely and quick, I don't want to waste time on garbage... :D

579 rightwingva  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:45pm

re: #574 gclaghorn

Rather than typing in all caps, why don't you read what I have posted more than once in this thread?

580 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:47pm

hmmm...
a little help here
does this link work
test link
(a good story) but I seem to be unable to follow my own link

581 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:49pm

re: #444 jwb7605

I hope it's not wishful thinking.
I'm one of those right-wingers that thinks they got a bum rap.

I don't know enough. From what I've heard they made mistakes like not reporting the incident however I've also heard supervisors were present and told them they didn't have to. They screwed up but really got nailed excessively. If supervisors were present why weren't they charged? I just don't know the actual facts. As someone who is in law enforcement, I work in a prison as a Training Sergeant, I am all for sticking it to bad cops. But I don't know near enough to make a judgment here.

582 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:11:50pm

re: #567 rightwingva

I'm sorry but you've accused other lizards of being stealth jihadis or something by insinuation, you aren't going to get off the hook on this smear, who is it and do you have a link?

583 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:12:15pm

re: #579 rightwingva

Rather than typing in all caps, why don't you read what I have posted more than once in this thread?

Rather than throwing red herrings out, why don't you just answer his question already?

584 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:12:18pm

re: #555 rightwingva

more martyr syndrome.

585 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:13:13pm

re: #567 rightwingva

I have followed this stuff since Charles went into a rage over Ben Stein's movie.

You're projecting your own rage onto me, because I certainly never wrote a word in rage, and you won't find anything to support that stupid comment.

I'm just wondering how far you'll go with this protracted meltdown.

586 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:13:30pm

re: #558 Bobibutu

The major danger occurs when working outdoors on the tundra or sea ice for sustained periods.
Also remember that wind chill factors can easily drop to triple digits below zero when travelling
on a snow machine at 30 mph.

[Link: www.arm.gov...]

Try it at 60

587 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:13:48pm

Egad, it is hard to log on, get caught up, and not miss all the fun. I am just an hour late and a couple of thoughts short. But it is a lovely thread. The Season's Blessings upon you all. Good night.

588 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:15:05pm

But on second thought, that's the second irrational thread derailer, and it's now gone.

589 JHW  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:15:07pm

re: #564 Karridine

Yes, I remember. I found this site, maintained by the Pueblo veterans, along with the famous photo of The Hawaiian Good Luck Sign
They also have a bibliography of books recommended by the veterans, so those would probably be the best for anyone wanting more info.

Now I'll stop posting O.T. and go back to reading. Thanks for the response Karridine.

590 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:15:09pm

re: #587 Haverwilde

Egad, it is hard to log on, get caught up, and not miss all the fun. I am just an hour late and a couple of thoughts short. But it is a lovely thread. The Season's Blessings upon you all. Good night.

Don't blink! You need some Clockwork Orange eye openers to keep up with the threads lately.

591 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:15:23pm
592 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:15:52pm

re: #419 opnion

A lot of New Yorkers do not want her. She has no experience at all, zilch, nada, and is a friend of Hussein, had lunch today with Al Sharpton, etc.

NY State DA Cuomo also spoke up today, and he wants to fill the vacancy if Shrill is actually Sec. of State. I pray that Bubba's CV that was released re his donors will be Shrill's undoing.

Even Demonrats are not that happy re Caroline Kennedy.

Gov. Paterson is a schmuck, but he seems to realize that appointing Cuomo would be far better.

/This is a state that is so blue, it gives me the shivers.

593 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:15:55pm

RVWA

You made the assertion that somehow we are aligning with jihadists or something like that? Where are you getting that from? Have a link?

594 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:16:04pm

re: #588 Charles

But on second thought, that's the second irrational thread derailer, and it's now gone.

Maxwell's silver hammer...

595 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:16:08pm

re: #588 Charles

But on second thought, that's the second irrational thread derailer, and it's now gone.

How long before they become a front-pager at LGF Watch?

596 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:16:12pm

re: #555 rightwingva

A year ago, many of you applauded my posts.

Not me. You're a nutter who is freaking out because you see your brand of fundamentalism is on the wane. Tough shitola. Enjoy your meltdown and don't forget to wipe the keyboard dry when you're done.

597 Outrider  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:17:14pm

re: #591 buzzsawmonkey

That's the second time in this thread that you said something about "defending" Mandy. I cannot recall any time here that Mandy needed "defending"--nor any time she wasn't more than capable of looking out for herself.

Most people here have had to "defend" themselves at one time or another--that is to say, have had to argue, sometimes heatedly, against people taking a differing or opposing view. It's all in the day's work, as the saying goes; it comes with the territory. And more often than not both sides enjoy it.

This sniveling Uriah Heep ingratiation--"I defended you, how can you turn on me?"--is fawning, unbecoming, and slightly sickening, wholly independent of anything of value you might have to say.

given he had only 181 posts, counting tonight's, don't know how much defending could have been done. ;-)>

598 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:17:15pm

re: #480 Desert Dog

All I want to know is will my tinfoil hat protect me?

I'm going for the lead-lined Jockey shorts, myself.

599 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:17:28pm

We haven't had anyone say "hive mind" yet, that must be coming up.

600 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:17:37pm

This is one ugly thread.
How about a cheerful Beatles song to lighten things up?

601 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:17:44pm

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust

602 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:17:47pm

re: #369 Karridine

I burst into laughter as the video ended... going from the faux-maudlin chimps in the crazed-ruined environment to the non-sequitur of "Turn Down the Sun, the Main-Driver of Global Warming!"

Tickled my funny-button, but that was NOT its intent, Hello!

That was karmic_inquisitor's link.

603 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:18:06pm

re: #598 Alberta Oil Peon

I'm going for the lead-lined Jockey shorts, myself.

That plus the tinfoil hat is sure to ... um... do something...

604 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:18:09pm

re: #571 rightwingva

Again, you constantly draw your conclusions and project them on others. That is really not very scientific. It is kind of being a cad, for what its worth.

You're the cad. Your first post was an insult, "knock this chip offa' my shoulder," and you got what you were hoping for. Provacateur.

605 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:18:39pm

re: #571 rightwingva

Again, you constantly draw your conclusions and project them on others. That is really not very scientific. It is kind of being a cad, for what its worth.

I pick on this post for no reason except that it is like all the others. Just whining. If you have an actual opinions on anything other than complaining about your replies, what are they? Simply referencing Genesis doesn't hack it.

606 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:19:05pm

OT:

George Washington was a leaden writer but he was remarkably correct about the big issues.

607 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:19:08pm

re: #589 JHW

LGF is tolerant of the reality that some things spark recollections and are 'Off-Thread' but in this present tech setup, LGF doesn't allow threaded responses to comments, as in other forums, so a little bit of patriotic follow-up by 'people who were there' is allowed, if it stays courteous...

Later, JHW!

608 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:19:53pm

re: #567 rightwingva

I will have to say, MandyManners, there were situations in the past that I defended you to the hilt. I guess that doesn't matter anymore. Bash those that believe Genesis and let the chips fall where they lay. No big deal, like I said, I have followed this stuff since Charles went into a rage over Ben Stein's movie. This is Charles' blog and he can feel and respond however it pleases him. It has always been a privilege to post here.

You unprovokedly attacked Sharmuta and others here.

609 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:20:48pm

re: #588 Charles

But on second thought, that's the second irrational thread derailer, and it's now gone.

Oh well. Wasn't much fun anyway, intellectually speaking.

610 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:21:04pm

re: #490 Thanos

I did not say they don't occur, but Robert Felix is an architect, not a scientist, and is pimping pseudo science. If you don't believe me do a search on his name and see how many freakazoid conspiracy sites link to him.

Sounds like a latter-day Velikovsky, then. I tend to avoid freakazoid conspiracy sites.

611 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:21:32pm

re: #413 rightwingva

I am so glad to see evolutionists aligning themselves with both the far left and the Islamic fundamentalists... it makes the ending so much easier to see!

Heh. Guess you must have missed some pertinent threads on the subject. Please avail yourself to such facts about which group is aligning with which group, you may find it educational and enlightening.

612 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:21:49pm

re: #550 buzzsawmonkey

I wonder if they are were sockpuppets...Mister Shake digs down anyone who dares speak up to rightwingva, who has thankfully left the building.

/Poor Mister Shake...he must feel so lonely.

613 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:22:31pm

re: #355 Karridine

Bucher... a true hero!

He may have known, but he was following legal orders and delivered (unbeknownst to him) the Tricked Encryption Machine into the hands of the Chi-Com, who used it for years (laughing at the stupid Americans) until nearly ALL the ChiCom and USSR channels had been seriously compromised...

Hastened the fall of the USSR, significantly!

True heroes, they were!

RGR - and the coffee cup thrown at them.

614 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:22:35pm

re: #580 rain of lead

uhh... nevermind, whatever weirdness was going on (IE 7)
seems to have stopped

FF is in near future

615 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:22:44pm
616 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:23:18pm

Well now I have time to find that article on the Deccan Plateau, back in a bit.

617 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:23:22pm

Those pants are made for walking;
You found out when you left.
Those big boy pants have booted you
Right out of LGF.

Dumdumdumdumdumdumdumdumdumdum!

Are you ready Charles? Start blocking!

DadadaDap! Dum!
DadadaDap! Dum!
DadadaDap! Dum!
DadadaDap! Dum!

618 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:23:30pm

re: #612 NY Nana

I wonder if they are were sockpuppets...Mister Shake digs down anyone who dares speak up to rightwingva, who has thankfully left the building.

/Poor Mister Shake...he must feel so lonely.

Was also ding downing those who disagreed with the recently "Maxwell Silver Hammer'd" tm wrathof...

619 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:23:38pm

re: #124 Racer X

The sun has set on the San Gabriel Mountains of California. Towercam, Pacific time zone.

See you probably tomorrow.

I'm simply amazed at how much that view can change over two minutes. It must be really windy up there because one minute there are clouds covering the top of the mountain and the next they are laying low in the valley.


I have not found a better Webcam for natural awesomeness.

620 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:23:40pm

re: #592 NY Nana

I pray that Bubba's CV that was released re his donors will be Shrill's undoing.


Culture of Corruption: The Clintons Make Blagojevich Look Like a Piker

Blagojevich has gotta be sitting there looking at this and saying, "They're coming after me? I haven't even sold anything yet, and look what's happened here with the Clintons and Barry," and then this. Folks, this is just classic. This is from AP-Obama. No byline, by the way, because they're on a byline strike there at AP. "The future of security contractor Blackwater Worldwide just got a little more politically sensitive. Newly released records show the largest security contractor in Iraq donated between $10,000 and $25,000 to former President Bill Clinton's foundation. Assuming Hillary Rodham Clinton is confirmed as Secretary of State, she will have final say on whether Blackwater will keep its contract despite a deadly shooting last year." As Secretary of State, she determines whether Blackwater keeps their Fed security contract. And they've given 15 to 25 grand to the Clinton Foundation, the Library and Massage Parlor.
621 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:24:46pm

re: #619 Ojoe

I have not found a better Webcam for natural awesomeness.

Nor I.
It is simply a beautiful view, any time of the year.

622 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:26:23pm

Ok here's the debate on the K-T extinction renewed

Here and Here

623 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:27:10pm

Taking a break before the next topic. I'm going out on the dock for a while, in bare feet, to enjoy the warmth this evening with a nice drink. (You snow shovelers will have your turn next hurricane season).

624 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:28:00pm
625 Christopher Luebcke  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:28:34pm

re: #622 Thanos

Thank you! Stuck in a hotel room in KC, 10 degrees and freezing rain. Good reading goes a long way.

626 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:28:44pm

re: #624 buzzsawmonkey

Bye, all.

Later!

627 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:28:55pm

re: #620 Rancher

Thanks! That lot should just take a hike...I am not sure that the Demonrats would be happy to see Shrill lose her job, but OTOH? I would venture a guess that the Billaries have a lot of enemies within the party.

Hmmm, Shrill is a carpetbagger, originally from Chicago...verrry interesting.

628 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:29:06pm

re: #555 rightwingva

I am big boy, with big boy pants.

Rotating title nominee!

629 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:29:38pm

re: #422 JHW

thank you

630 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:29:58pm

ok how bout some killing bad guys coolness
US Navy's robot stealth carrier plane unveiled

631 CynicalConservative  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:29:59pm

re: #628 gclaghorn

Rotating title nominee!

Second, Third, etc!

632 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:30:10pm

re: #625 Christopher Luebcke

Thank you! Stuck in a hotel room in KC, 10 degrees and freezing rain. Good reading goes a long way.

I'm nearby btw, and it is cold here. Have a toddy or something.

Here's a Dutch paleontologist who disagrees, but their paper isn't out yet I don't think.

633 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:30:16pm

re: #624 buzzsawmonkey

Bye, all.

Arrive dirty.

634 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:30:21pm

re: #602 HelloDare
No harm intended... did you take the video as effective, powerful propaganda? The Global Warming people CANNOT stand on principle, therefore they MUST appeal solely to emotions, hence the emotional tug of the irrational video...

635 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:30:48pm

re: #618 CynicalConservative

Interesting. It might be worthwhile to see if it keeps it up.

636 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:31:02pm

re: #633 Spare O'Lake

Arrive dirty.

And wear your big-boy pants!

637 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:31:30pm

re: #605 Naso Tang

He said nothing beyond his initial idiotic statement trying to lump evolution, Al Gore and Islamism together. He didn't try to back it with anything but whining. The only memorable thing about that performance was his big pants remark.

638 SteveC  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:31:41pm

*Scratches head*

*Puzzled look*

I'm looking over the visitor statistics for my blog about living with a Heart Defect. One of the search engine phrases that brought a visitor to my site yesterday was "low iraqi sodium diet".

Say what?

All ya'll be careful, too much salt is bad for ya, but that IRAQI salt... that will kill you graveyard dead!

639 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:32:17pm
640 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:33:03pm

re: #611 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh: Never mind. As usual I am late to the party, and have missed yet another troll roast. The Lizards have eviscerated this one so thoroughly that there aren't even any leftovers. But, that's what I get for being late.

On the topic of Master Snake, perhaps it is a sock puppet.

641 SteveC  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:33:28pm

re: #625 Christopher Luebcke

Thank you! Stuck in a hotel room in KC, 10 degrees and freezing rain. Good reading goes a long way.

Why did you book a hotel room in East Hell?

642 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:33:49pm

re: #640 Slumbering Behemoth

I saved you some gamey buttocks.

643 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:34:06pm

re: #641 SteveC

Why did you book a hotel room in East Hell?

There's still plenty of fried troll to go around!

644 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:34:24pm

re: #639 BignJames

Remember these guys?

Mo and Megahead...

645 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:34:44pm

re: #642 Sharmuta

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

646 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:34:50pm

Wonder if CAIR is still saying they were railroaded?

647 SteveC  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:35:17pm

re: #640 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh: Never mind. As usual I am late to the party, and have missed yet another troll roast. The Lizards have eviscerated this one so thoroughly that there aren't even any leftovers. But, that's what I get for being late.

*Looks in cabinet* We'd be out of luck anyway. Even if there were any scraps, we don't have any carry-out boxes. :(

648 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:35:35pm

re: #645 jaunte

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

Because troll hunting is a sport?

649 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:35:49pm

re: #638 SteveC

*Scratches head*

*Puzzled look*

I'm looking over the visitor statistics for my blog about living with a Heart Defect. One of the search engine phrases that brought a visitor to my site yesterday was "low iraqi sodium diet".

Say what?

All ya'll be careful, too much salt is bad for ya, but that IRAQI salt... that will kill you graveyard dead!

Iraqi salt? Wonder if it's kin to Veruca Salt.

650 gclaghorn  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:36:09pm

re: #643 gclaghorn

There's still plenty of fried troll to go around!

Oh, that was weird. I replied to the wrong comment.

651 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:36:35pm

Oh. My. Gawd.

This is interesting, and I think this guy is serious:
The economic Civil War - The South's attempt to kill the North's auto industry is the latest battle in an ongoing conflict. It's time for a Third Reconstruction to put an end to it.

A quote from near the end:

The alternative to the Southernization of the U.S. is the Americanization of the South -- a process that was not completed by Reconstruction and the New Deal and the Civil Rights era, which can be thought of as the Second Reconstruction. The non-Southern states, through their representatives in Congress and the executive branch, and with the help of enlightened Southerners, need to use the power of the federal government to put a stop to the Southern conservative race-to-the-bottom strategy once and for all.

I had no clue we were so clueless!

652 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:36:52pm

re: #642 Sharmuta

Behemoth! I slaved for HOURS over these gamey buttocks, and now you come stumbling in STINKING of peanuts on your breath?

*oh, boo-hoo, bwaaah, sob!*

653 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:37:00pm

re: #645 jaunte

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

654 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:37:11pm

re: #630 rain of lead

ok how bout some killing bad guys coolness
US Navy's robot stealth carrier plane unveiled

hey guys,
some quick feedback... does this link work?
&$$#@ IE^&*&$%%$#

655 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:37:25pm

re: #650 gclaghorn

Oh, that was weird. I replied to the wrong comment.

Happened to me the other day. I could have sworn I "replied" to the correct comment, but a different one showed up.

656 SteveC  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:37:26pm

re: #649 MandyManners

Iraqi salt? Wonder if it's kin to Veruca Salt.

Both cause high blood pressure!

657 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:38:02pm

re: 563 Thanos

that you can't believe in God and accept scientific fact at the same time.

Creating life from non-living matter is not a scientific fact. Evolution or devolution or adaptation or variation within a particular species is a fact, although even some scientists disagree on the exact mechanisms.

Here is an interesting article using computational biology to question some of Darwin's ideas on survival of the fittest and natural selection.

[Link: www.ploscompbiol.org...]

658 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:38:46pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout

His proposal to increase the minimum wage to $10 to $12 is going nowhere in this economy.

659 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:38:54pm
One of the Seven Sciences, and a very useful and Necessary Branch of the Mathematick; whose Subject is greatness: for as Number is the Subjeck of Arithmetick, so that of Geometry is Magnitude, which hath its beginning from Point, that is a Thing Supposed to be indivisible, and the Original of all Dimension. By it is explained the Nature, Kind and Property of continued Magnitude that is a Line, a Superficies and a Solid of which in their proper Order.

One of George Washington's earliest writings.

660 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:39:04pm

re: #645 jaunte

Because of the trolls' penchant for not washing...

Trolls don't want to wash away musty, crusty biases and preconceptions, so they tend toward the gamey, near-rancid odor when they're pierced with logic, sliced by Occam's Razor or made to wear the Dunce Hat...

661 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:39:07pm

Wow, the meltdowns here tonight sure help take my mind off all the snow blanketing the area.

662 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:39:25pm

I wonder what the scalp collection would total up to if someone went back and counted all the flameouts and meltdowns on the past EVO threads?

663 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:39:33pm

re: #657 beermeister

"Survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer, not Darwin.

664 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:39:33pm

re: #645 jaunte

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

Because they're not domesticated?

665 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:40:24pm

re: #656 SteveC

Both cause high blood pressure!

So do some trolls.

666 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:40:58pm

re: #662 Salamantis

I wonder what the scalp collection would total up to if someone went back and counted all the flameouts and meltdowns on the past EVO threads?

20?

667 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:41:07pm

re: #664 MandyManners

Because they're not domesticated?

Domesticated troll is just too bland...the gaminess gives it that extra kick of flavour.

668 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:41:20pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout


You should read the comments...lotsa moonbats don't like the South.

669 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:41:53pm

re: #642 Sharmuta

Thanks, but I like mine fresh, torn straight from the backside. {Sharm}
re: #645 jaunte

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

Because trolls are cowardly creatures, always running away from something (usually facts) or someone (usually Lizards bearing facts).

670 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:42:02pm

re: #658 jaunte

His proposal to increase the minimum wage to $10 to $12 is going nowhere in this economy.

Honestly - I hope none of his proposals go anywhere.

671 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:42:15pm

re: #668 BignJames

You should read the comments...lotsa moonbats don't like the South.

A lot of moonbats don't like themselves...

672 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:42:52pm

re: #506 lifeofthemind

I know Liston's book and I knew the man who wrote the orders for the mission, I can not talk more about this here, for my own privacy mostly, but Liston was full of garbage. He's a kook, ignore him.

Well, there's bound to be solid information on the Pueblo incident, so, off I go--just a squirrel looking for acorns.

673 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:43:36pm

re: #657 beermeister

re: 563 Thanos

that you can't believe in God and accept scientific fact at the same time.

Creating life from non-living matter is not a scientific fact. Evolution or devolution or adaptation or variation within a particular species is a fact, although even some scientists disagree on the exact mechanisms.

Here is an interesting article using computational biology to question some of Darwin's ideas on survival of the fittest and natural selection.

[Link: www.ploscompbiol.org...]

Do not confuse augmentation, elaboration and refinement of a theory with the questioning of its basic premises. Nothing in the article you linked challenges either random genetic mutation or nonrandom environmental selection. It does point out that evolution aggregates; that is, that past evolution constrains the range of future possible mutations.

674 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:43:56pm

re: #634 Karridine

No harm intended... did you take the video as effective, powerful propaganda? The Global Warming people CANNOT stand on principle, therefore they MUST appeal solely to emotions, hence the emotional tug of the irrational video...

I just wanted give karmic_inquisitor to get credit for the link.

No, I thought the video was a joke. Pathetic. Unfortunately, it might be effective propaganda to little kids and those who haven't spent a couple minutes researching the topic. It's so over the top, you can't parody it. Where would you go from there? Ants forming the words "Step on us. We can't take it anymore."

675 SteveC  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:44:26pm

re: #668 BignJames

You should read the comments...lotsa moonbats don't like the South.

I can't live without my G.R.I.T.S.!*

*Girls Raised in the South

676 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:44:34pm

re: #668 BignJames

You should read the comments...lotsa moonbats don't like the South.

Yes, well, that is something I already knew.

In movies, does the bad guy have a southern hick accent or a New York accent?
In movies, is the evil sheriff from a southern state, or a west coast state?
In movies, are the smokers from southern states, or elsewhere?
In movies, do all the dumb and naive idiots have a southern accent (or what's supposed to be a southern accent)?
I could go on.

677 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:44:48pm

re: #627 NY Nana
Had Obama not given the Clintons new life they would have been done. Now, however, she is Secratary of State! And our friends the Saudis have donated $10 million to $25 million to the William J. Clinton Foundation. Meanwhile the Sauidis support The Global Islamic Jihad.

678 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:45:40pm

re: #667 FurryOldGuyJeans

Domesticated troll is just too bland...the gaminess gives it that extra kick of flavour.

Just add garlic and the domesticated kind is good.

679 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:45:49pm

re: #652 Karridine

Peanuts?!? I'll have you know that my breath does not stink of peanuts. My breath stinks of cheap beer and cheap cigarettes.

/Now if it also stank of cheap women, I would have a perfect trifecta...but then I probably wouldn't be posting here, now.

680 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:45:56pm

re: #661 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wow, the meltdowns here tonight sure help take my mind off all the snow blanketing the area.

A meltdown but the thread has only one down ding.

681 JHW  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:21pm

re: #672 Joan

My post 589 may be of some use to you Joan. It has a link to the veteran's association and a bibliography of books they recommend.

682 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:37pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout

Oh. My. Gawd.

This is interesting, and I think this guy is serious:
The economic Civil War - The South's attempt to kill the North's auto industry is the latest battle in an ongoing conflict. It's time for a Third Reconstruction to put an end to it.

A quote from near the end:

I had no clue we were so clueless!

Damn Yankee.

683 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #625 Christopher Luebcke

Thank you! Stuck in a hotel room in KC, 10 degrees and freezing rain. Good reading goes a long way.

Looking into this a bit more it looks like Gerta has been taking a run at this for awhile, so you could be right. It will be interesting to see the new paper, imaging and testing is much improved since 2003, so the "Forams" should show as such or not distinctly if the right tests are done.

684 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #679 Slumbering Behemoth

Peanuts?!? I'll have you know that my breath does not stink of peanuts. My breath stinks of cheap beer and cheap cigarettes.

/Now if it also stank of cheap women, I would have a perfect trifecta...but then I probably wouldn't be posting here, now.

I thought I was the one eating peanuts.

685 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:47pm

re: #614 rain of lead

Did you download the fix for IE7?

There is also one there for Firefox.

686 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:53pm

re: #654 rain of lead

hey guys,
some quick feedback... does this link work?
&$$#@ IE^&*&$%%$#

No, there was an extra http:// in it, but THIS should work: The JAWA Report

687 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:46:59pm

ok let's try this
Christmas Island in Lights

688 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:06pm

re: #676 reine.de.tout

His whole South vs. North idea is wrong, anyway. The country is divided politically along rural vs.urban lines, and you can see it in the county-by-county returns.

689 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:12pm

re: #680 HelloDare

A meltdown but the thread has only one down ding.

Two now.

690 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:14pm

re: #680 HelloDare

A meltdown but the thread has only one down ding.

Two meltdowns.

691 Outrider  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:19pm

re: #676 reine.de.tout

Yes, well, that is something I already knew.

In movies, does the bad guy have a southern hick accent or a New York accent?
In movies, is the evil sheriff from a southern state, or a west coast state?
In movies, are the smokers from southern states, or elsewhere?
In movies, do all the dumb and naive idiots have a southern accent (or what's supposed to be a southern accent)?
I could go on.

Southerners are a group it is perfectly legit to stereotype, harass, mock, or discriminate against with no fear of legal reprisal.

692 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:22pm

re: #676 reine.de.tout

Yes, well, that is something I already knew.

In movies, does the bad guy have a southern hick accent or a New York accent?
In movies, is the evil sheriff from a southern state, or a west coast state?
In movies, are the smokers from southern states, or elsewhere?
In movies, do all the dumb and naive idiots have a southern accent (or what's supposed to be a southern accent)?
I could go on.

Tony Montana had Southern Accent?


[Link: www.imdb.com...]

693 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:25pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout

Do they never, ever get tired of conspiracy, slanders and insult? Snarky, snooty and totally fruity

694 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:28pm

re: #678 MandyManners

Just add garlic and the domesticated kind is good.

Why waste good garlic on domesticated when free range, like we get here at lgf, is better.

695 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:52pm

GMTA, Mandy! ;~)

696 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:47:57pm

re: #684 Sharmuta

I thought I was the one eating peanuts.

No. You weren't given any.

697 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:48:01pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

WOW! I am learning the most interesting things here. That was amazing. Thank you!

698 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:48:22pm

re: #696 MandyManners

No. You weren't given any.

Oh yeah! That's right.

699 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:48:45pm

re: #695 Salamantis

GMTA, Mandy! ;~)

I was talking dings. You were talking meltdowns.

700 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:48:45pm

re: #617 Salamantis

Btw Sal, I noticed the festering scumbag ignoranuses on that most lowlife of stalker sites have been getting their knickers in a twist about your posts.

It must really bother you to not get their approval and support/

701 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:48:52pm

re: #674 HelloDare

It's so over the top, you can't parody it. Where would you go from there? Ants forming the words "Step on us. We can't take it anymore."

ROFLaughing!

"Smoosh US, we wanna DIE!" Laughing still...:D

702 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:49:03pm

re: #694 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why waste good garlic on domesticated when free range, like we get here at lgf, is better.

Variety. Life. Spice.

703 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:49:34pm

re: #676 reine.de.tout

Yes, well, that is something I already knew.

In movies, does the bad guy have a southern hick accent or a New York accent?
In movies, is the evil sheriff from a southern state, or a west coast state?
In movies, are the smokers from southern states, or elsewhere?
In movies, do all the dumb and naive idiots have a southern accent (or what's supposed to be a southern accent)?
I could go on.

Don't feel too bad- they've done the same now with strong Norther accents like in Fargo.. Look at how Sarah Palin was mocked.

704 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:49:35pm

re: #698 Sharmuta

Oh yeah! That's right.

Did he really think he could get away with that crap?

705 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:49:44pm

re: #680 HelloDare

A meltdown but the thread has only one down ding.

Two meltdowns that I saw, with three blocks, and two thread down-dings...the correlation needs to be researched and categorized. ;)

706 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:49:55pm

re: #700 Jimmah

Btw Sal, I noticed the festering scumbag ignoranuses on that most lowlife of stalker sites have been getting their knickers in a twist about your posts.

It must really bother you to not get their approval and support/

My widdle heart rends and bleeds; I don't know if I can struggle on...

/

707 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:50:07pm

re: #685 NY Nana

re: #685 NY Nana

yeah, did it before and after

708 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:50:28pm

re: #703 Sharmuta

You betcha!

709 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:50:29pm

re: #657 beermeister

Interesting article on how evolution is imperfect, and often just creates something that works rather than "what's best".

I also agree that we don't know enough yet to say that science knows how life began, see my reply to the now defunct Wrath well up the thread.

710 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:50:37pm

re: #699 MandyManners

I was talking dings. You were talking meltdowns.

How does one get a down ding without posting a meltdown?
It's a creationist question :-)

711 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:51:13pm

re: #676 reine.de.tout

Yes, well, that is something I already knew.

In movies, does the bad guy have a southern hick accent or a New York accent?
In movies, is the evil sheriff from a southern state, or a west coast state?
In movies, are the smokers from southern states, or elsewhere?
In movies, do all the dumb and naive idiots have a southern accent (or what's supposed to be a southern accent)?
I could go on.

I just love movies/tv shows set in Bakersfield or some other area outside LA/SF in which the locals have thick, hick accents. Shows what Hollywood thinks of both locals and Southerners.

712 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:51:32pm

re: #677 Rancher

Oh, I agree. The one thing we have going for us is Bubba's buddies who donated..they may very well be an issue, as they should be, that would cost Shrill her job. She has to be vetted before her position is signed, sealed and official.

And since Bubba is allegedly from Hope, AK, it would give a whole new meaning to the word 'hope'.

713 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:51:37pm

re: #704 MandyManners

Did he really think he could get away with that crap?

He certainly was allowed a whole bale of rope to go piss up.

714 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:51:41pm

re: #705 FurryOldGuyJeans

Two meltdowns that I saw, with three blocks, and two thread down-dings...the correlation needs to be researched and categorized. ;)

Three blocks?! Three?

715 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:21pm

re: #710 jwb7605

How does one get a down ding without posting a meltdown?
It's a creationist question :-)

I've seen down-dings in other threads.

716 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:31pm

re: #692 sattv4u2

Tony Montana had Southern Accent?


[Link: www.imdb.com...]

You point to one movie from 1983 to make . . .what point?

717 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:35pm

re: #686 Karridine

also #707
what the hell...
my keyboard has a stutter? ? ?
or am I getting twichy?

718 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:35pm

re: #699 MandyManners

I was talking dings. You were talking meltdowns.

Oh; okay! Never mind!

/One dingy dingy...two dingy dingies...

719 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:36pm

re: #704 MandyManners

Did he really think he could get away with that crap?

It's like the disclaimer on mutual funds and the like:

Past performance is not indicative of future gains.

720 HelloDare  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:48pm

re: #705 FurryOldGuyJeans

Two meltdowns that I saw, with three blocks, and two thread down-dings...the correlation needs to be researched and categorized. ;)

Be great if we could hear a tone of some kind on down dings, or a little explosion. Something. A fart sound would be lovely.

721 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:56pm

re: #713 FurryOldGuyJeans

He certainly was allowed a whole bale of rope to go piss up.

I refrained.

722 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:52:56pm
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

-George Washington

723 Rancher  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:53:16pm

re: #712 NY Nana

Oh, I agree. The one thing we have going for us is Bubba's buddies who donated..they may very well be an issue, as they should be, that would cost Shrill her job. She has to be vetted before her position is signed, sealed and official.

And since Bubba is allegedly from Hope, AK, it would give a whole new meaning to the word 'hope'.


Problem is she will be vetted by a rubber stamp congress.

724 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:53:18pm

re: #706 Salamantis

Heh. I just noticed I typed 'ignoranuses'. It seems appropriate - I think I'll keep it as a term of reference for that lot.

725 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:53:20pm

re: 663 Sharmuta

"Survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer, not Darwin.

Fine. Darwin did use the term in his writings.

726 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:53:21pm

re: #622 Thanos

Ok here's the debate on the K-T extinction renewed

Here and Here

Good links, Thanos. I take issue with the description of the Deccan plateau eruptions being described as "huge explosions". These plateau basalts are generally considered by geologists to be the result of relatively placid fissure eruptions, rather than explosive volcanism. Think Kilauea as opposed to Mt. St. Helens. The Columbia Plateau in Washington/Idaho/Oregon is a good, very accessible domestic example of plateau basalt. Essentially, you have a fissure open up in the continental crust due to rifting, and basalt lava simply wells up from the mantle, and spills out over the land in smooth, even layers. But there certainly could be a release of vast quantities of sulfur dioxide in conjunction with this "quiet" volcanism.

727 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:53:30pm

re: #684 Sharmuta

Perhaps Karradine has a suspicious mind. Did he check to see if your breath stank of cheap beer and cigarettes?
/

728 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:53:34pm

re: #703 Sharmuta

Don't feel too bad- they've done the same now with strong Norther accents like in Fargo.. Look at how Sarah Palin was mocked.

True.

729 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:54:06pm

re: #715 MandyManners

I've seen down-dings in other threads.

I know, but they're usually the result of having said (typed/posted) something enormously stupid, offensive, and the like.

730 fclass308  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:54:35pm

re: #712 NY Nana

(pssst...it's Hope, AR ...not AK.)

731 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:54:37pm

re: #714 MandyManners

Three blocks?! Three?

Wrath, rightwingva, and Master Shake. Two visible meltdowns and one stealth dinger.

732 ornery elephant  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:55:02pm

re: #142 Salamantis

The difference between scientific theories and religions faith is the presence or absence of empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory has it - in spades; creationism and ID don't have it at all.

You're always talking about empirical evidence. Isn't this empirical evidence?

Human and industrial development over the past hundred years has led to a huge increase in fossil fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, causing a dramatic increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration. This increased CO2 is believed to be responsible for a significant rise in global temperature over the past several decades. Global-scale climate modeling suggests that the temperature increase will continue, at least over the next few hundred years, leading to glacial melting and rising sea levels.

Link...

733 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:55:13pm
Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.

More, you know, George Washington.

734 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:55:23pm

re: #296 avanti

To be honest I feel like the creationist in the room on that issue, and would be wasting my breath in the opposite direction. With but a few exceptions, science is on my side, and I'd fighting faith that it's wrong. The EPA calls it climate change since that's more discriptive of what warming causes. I fought this out in another thread for a bit, but got mocked and dinged down so fast I figured I'd better get out of Dodge.
In a way it's sad that Gore took up the issue, that made it automatically a dead issue on the right even though Newt and GW have come around.

Hey, I know how you feel. I also tend to be silent because I'm still a relative newbie around here and I don't want to get into any fighting matches of the type that occurred when I first registered (Though the Wrath blocking kinda makes me feel great because it shows my instincts were right when I first got into a fight with him). This has unfortunately turned into a very politicized issue because of idiots like Gore, but if we try to be intellectually honest maybe we can change a few minds. I know there are more like us around here ;)

735 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:55:48pm

re: #718 Salamantis

Oh; okay! Never mind!

/One dingy dingy...two dingy dingies...

"You owe us a balance of $23.54."

736 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:56:28pm

re: #719 Sharmuta

It's like the disclaimer on mutual funds and the like:

Past performance is not indicative of future gains.

The way he threw up supporting me in the past pissed me off. This isn't a political game.

737 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:56:30pm

re: #731 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wrath, rightwingva, and Master Shake. Two visible meltdowns and one stealth dinger.

That the He! is a "stealth dinger"?

738 Outrider  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:56:41pm

re: #720 HelloDare

Be great if we could hear a tone of some kind on down dings, or a little explosion. Something. A fart sound would be lovely.

a little graphic bomb moving across the screen heading to the offending post where it promptly evolves into a mushroom cloud obliterating the offending post?

739 Joan  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:56:51pm

re: #724 Jimmah

Heh. I just noticed I typed 'ignoranuses'. It seems appropriate - I think I'll keep it as a term of reference for that lot.

Ohhh, I think you should share. What a cool word you've neologismated.

740 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:57:40pm

Gotta' go beat The Kid. bbl

741 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:57:56pm

re: #716 reine.de.tout

You point to one movie from 1983 to make . . .what point?

Okay ,, I see people ate still all riled up from the earleir unpleasantries. I was just trying to be goofy. I've been chatsised and withdraw my observation (although I could puch the point and list hundreds of movies, TV shows, docu-dramas where the antagonists/ bad guys have 'accents' from every region of the country, if not the world0

Back to the previous dead thread I go, where we were in serious discussion over the relative merits of it being safer as a land or seafaring grunt

742 Karridine  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:58:11pm

re: #679 Slumbering Behemoth

Woopsie!

By doze is oudda wack... cheap booze and cheap cigs... that's good eduff for be

743 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:58:23pm

re: #736 MandyManners


Finally got me some Basil Hayden...very, very good stuff.

744 Archimedes  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:58:40pm

This thread has really evolved.

745 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:59:19pm

re: #739 Joan

By all means :)

746 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 7:59:36pm

re: #707 rain of lead

I did it also...and there will be another problem is 10, 9, 8...

747 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:00:03pm
If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.

My final, George Washington quote.

748 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:00:21pm

re: #737 jwb7605

That the He! is a "stealth dinger"?

What do you call a 4 year lizard with 314 posts?

Master Shake
This user is blocked.
Karma: 18
Registered since: Sep 26, 2004 at 12:39 pm

No. of comments posted: 314
No. of links posted: 0

749 Archimedes  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:00:47pm

Charles keeps adding features to this website. I can't keep up! I see the post count now automatically updates without having to refresh the browser. Nifty.

750 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:00:59pm
751 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #725 beermeister

re: 663 Sharmuta

"Survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer, not Darwin.

Fine. Darwin did use the term in his writings.

(Citation needed)...

752 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:01:36pm

re: #714 MandyManners

Three blocks?! Three?

/And a partridge in a pear tree!

753 Archimedes  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:02:01pm

Bottom Ten comments have been added. I remember Charles being against that, but I guess he changed his mind. :)

754 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:02:28pm

re: #744 Archimedes

This thread has really evolved.

Have you any idea of the statistical unlikelihood of that exact sequence of letters appearing in this precise post of this so-called 'evolved' thread?/

755 Archimedes  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:03:44pm

re: #754 Jimmah

Have you any idea of the statistical unlikelihood of that exact sequence of letters appearing in this precise post of this so-called 'evolved' thread?/

It's done so intelligently. :)

756 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:03:44pm

re: #676 reine.de.tout

re: #703 Sharmuta

I'm not a fan of regional bigotry. In fact, I think it is crap perpetrated by small, ignorant minds. I take particular offense to those who swing broad tar-brushes at all Californians based solely on media/stories that come from just a few cities in my state.

757 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:04:17pm

Typical Creationist thread.

I end up arriving at the end of it and they have drunk all the punch and siphoned off all the Jim Jones Kool Aid for later.

The world is set on the back of a turtle and the sun orbits round the earth which is of course flatter than Keira Knightly's chest cavity. And its run by a bunch of mice still trying to work out the true question to 42.

There .. now i have solved all of lifes problems for you lets move onto the real question man is trying to answer.

Boob thread?

758 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:04:25pm

re: #79 Iron Fist

No, but they will also wind up believing in Anthropomorphic Global Warming, and the importance of recycling. Oh, and that everyone should give their labor according to their ability, and be given (by the Government) what they need.

In addition to sex ed for kindergarteners.

There's a lot of politics in public schools. 99% of it is from the Left. It's been that way all of my life.

Well shoot. I think the case for AGW is pretty strong, and I think recycling aluminum makes sense. And I think people should give their labor according to their need to earn a living, and be paid what it's worth. The government cannot give anything to anybody. It can only make some people hand stuff over to others. Now when it comes to paying the Army, that's fair enough. The courts, ditto. And there are other legitimate government functions. But in the physical world, stuff doesn't come out of a cornucopia. It comes out of raw materials plus energy plus human labor and wit. The government doesn't create any of those. Two we are given by reality, and the third, in one sense also given by reality, but from another perspective, who else but ourselves can properly own our own energy and wit?

759 rain of lead  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:05:00pm

ok figured it out, thanks for the feedback
going upstairs

760 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:06:13pm

re: #740 MandyManners

Is that what they're calling it now? Careful, I hear that can make a person go blind. Or give them gout. I forget.
//

761 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:06:20pm

re: #732 ornery elephant

Link...

That is indeed empirical evidence, but its credibility has yet to be conclusively established. In fact, it has long been known that by far the main terrestrial factor in global warming is not CO2, but water vapor, over which humans have little control. Bad science is still science, and is correctable by further experiment and investigation; ID and creationism are empirically untestable, and are not science at all.

762 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:07:04pm

re: #645 jaunte

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

I wouldn't know. I'm a head man myself; but each to his own.

;)

763 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:07:11pm

This thread could get tasty again if Master Shake finds the guts to post. Not gonna happen, though is it?

764 jwb7605  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:07:30pm

re: #748 FurryOldGuyJeans

What do you call a 4 year lizard with 314 posts?

I dunno.
Until roughly April/May this year, I would have qualified.
me: Registered since: Oct 25, 2004 at 12:00 pm,
Most all of my 1965 posts have occurred since then.
After the 2004 election, I "lost interest" and didn't visit blog sites much.
(I forgot to mention that John Kerry is an idiot)

Heck, maybe I still qualify.
"stealth dinger" kind of implies you can do it anonymously, is what I meant.
(I seem to have "positive Karma", though).

765 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:07:34pm

re: #751 Basho

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I checked it myself. Took Darwin until the fifth printing.

766 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:07:38pm

re: #741 sattv4u2

Okay ,, I see people ate still all riled up from the earleir unpleasantries. I was just trying to be goofy. I've been chatsised and withdraw my observation (although I could puch the point and list hundreds of movies, TV shows, docu-dramas where the antagonists/ bad guys have 'accents' from every region of the country, if not the world0

Back to the previous dead thread I go, where we were in serious discussion over the relative merits of it being safer as a land or seafaring grunt

sattv - I didn't intend to be grumpy, sorry - long day, not a good one.

767 Buster Bunny  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:07:52pm

re: #645 jaunte

Why are the troll buttocks always gamey?

Tastes like chicken to me.

768 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:08:24pm

re: #763 Jimmah

I guess it's still early in Seattle.

769 ornery elephant  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:08:40pm

re: #763 Jimmah

This thread could get tasty again if Master Shake finds the guts to post. Not gonna happen, though is it?

Are you five yrs old?

770 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:09:16pm

re: #742 Karridine

Took me a second to decipher that. It clicked as soon as I realized it was "stuffy nose speak".

771 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:09:54pm

re: #748 FurryOldGuyJeans

What do you call a 4 year lizard with 314 posts?


I dunno ,,,perhaps someone that has a (GASP) LIFE !

772 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:10:05pm

re: #734 Basho

Wait a few years and the 2 or 3 of us will try again.

773 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:10:31pm

re: #769 ornery elephant

Are you five yrs old?

Nope. Any other misconceptions of yours you'd like to talk about?

774 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:11:36pm

re: #761 Salamantis

In fact, it has long been known that by far the main terrestrial factor in global warming is not CO2, but water vapor, over which humans have little control.

Of course water vapor is the dominant greenhouse gas on Earth. How does adding more of another greenhouse gas, CO2, not make the Earth warmer?

775 jorline  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:12:27pm

re: #651 reine.de.tout

Oh. My. Gawd.

This is interesting, and I think this guy is serious:
The economic Civil War - The South's attempt to kill the North's auto industry is the latest battle in an ongoing conflict. It's time for a Third Reconstruction to put an end to it.

A quote from near the end:


I had no clue we were so clueless!

Hi, reine.

Next project for us southerners will be the construction of a "Great Wall" along the Mason Dixon Line compromised of bibles.

776 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:12:59pm

re: #765 Sharmuta

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I checked it myself. Took Darwin until the fifth printing.

Hahaha, nice catch! Interesting information over there. Thanks!

777 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:14:51pm

re: #774 Basho

That is a compelling fact that you can't really get away from. C02 is a greenhouse gas, and man has increased the amount of it in the atmosphere. So, there has to be some man made global warming - it's a question of how much.

778 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:15:46pm

I have a question. It is not an evolution question, honestly, really.

I teach a homeschool science class (I would say club, really). 4-8th graders. We are going to do biology next. The philosophy of the club is to do things. When we did chemistry we actually got chemicals and mixed them up. When we did geology we got out rocks and used a streak plate and a scratch test. When we did astronomy...well, we met in the middle of the day. We made movies about what we learned.

Anyway, are there any biologists out there who could give me some good ideas for activities? This is actually the last subject we are doing because it's the one I'm weak in. So far I plan on buying things to dissect. (Preserved specimens, I promise.) We also have a microscope and a rootvue farm, and I plan on getting some big flowers to pull apart and examine.

I was looking at the website of the place I order from, and they were saying something about agar and petri dishes and growing bacteria culture. That sounds like it might be fun, but I have no idea how to actually do it.

Ideas?

779 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:16:31pm

Why don't you ever see the headline 'Psychic Wins Lottery'?

780 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:17:47pm

re: 751 Basho

re: 663 Sharmuta

"Survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer, not Darwin.

Fine. Darwin did use the term in his writings.

(Citation needed)...

[Link: www.darwin-literature.com...]

[Link: www.iep.utm.edu...]

[Link: brian.carnell.com...]

781 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:18:03pm

re: #765 Sharmuta

Hmm... it's interesting that he wanting to avoiding using the word "selection" in order to "[avoid] the troublesome anthropomorphism" associated with the word. Yet, the IDers choose to attack him for the phrase "survival of the fittest"! Very ironic, indeed.

782 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:18:47pm

re: #751 Basho

(Citation needed)..[for "survival of the fittest", in Darwin's writings]...

It's not in Origin of Species, not in so many words. (Gutenberg project, thank you. Download the book, search for the text string, done.)

783 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:20:00pm

re: #774 Basho

Of course water vapor is the dominant greenhouse gas on Earth. How does adding more of another greenhouse gas, CO2, not make the Earth warmer?

Your wasting your time, I made that point just yesterday. Prepare to hear about Mars warming, solar cycles and cow farts. If only Reagan would have made a global warming flick, we'd have a shot. Ping me if you get anywhere, but it's a waste of time. I gave up because I'm old enough that a degree or two won't matter and we'll all be dead by the time it's too late to fix it.

784 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:20:03pm

re: #774 Basho

Of course water vapor is the dominant greenhouse gas on Earth. How does adding more of another greenhouse gas, CO2, not make the Earth warmer?

Warmer than when?

785 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:20:13pm

re: #781 Basho

Gah... what a grammatical disaster that turned out... I have to learn how to click the preview button...

786 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:22:37pm

re: #778 EmmmieG

I was looking at the website of the place I order from, and they were saying something about agar and petri dishes and growing bacteria culture. That sounds like it might be fun, but I have no idea how to actually do it.

Ideas?

I used to get a jar of water and pop a couple of baked beans in there and leave it for a few days. I used to find amoebae, rotifers, stentors, paramecium and many others - very interesting and active little creatures.

787 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:22:59pm

re: #784 BignJames

Warmer than when?

Obviously, warmer than it would have been had there not been an increase in greenhouse gases.

788 BignJames  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:24:40pm

re: #787 Basho

Obviously, warmer than it would have been had there not been an increase in greenhouse gases.


You've got direct coorelation?

789 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:25:33pm

re: #774 Basho

Of course water vapor is the dominant greenhouse gas on Earth. How does adding more of another greenhouse gas, CO2, not make the Earth warmer?

It may indeed, but to what...umm...degree? And is the benefit of a 10th of a point reduction in global average temperature worth the cost of an enduring global disruption of the planet's economy?

Such cost-benefit analysis has been done:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

You might also find this book to be of interest:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

790 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:26:01pm

re: #35 Sharmuta

This has nothing to do with AGW.

No, but I can see why people would point to AGW and say... see, science isn't correct about everything. Science has an agenda as well.

And that is absolutely true. Scientists unfortunately, are increasingly inserting their own personal agenda and beliefs into their work and claiming it shouldn't be questioned because they've got the advanced degrees.

Science, as a field can only blame itself for not policing out the nuts and ideologues.

791 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:27:16pm

re: #726 Alberta Oil Peon

The Columbia Plateau in Washington/Idaho/Oregon is a good, very accessible domestic example of plateau basalt. Essentially, you have a fissure open up in the continental crust due to rifting, and basalt lava simply wells up from the mantle, and spills out over the land in smooth, even layers. But there certainly could be a release of vast quantities of sulfur dioxide in conjunction with this "quiet" volcanism.

Ah, you are talking about home. How I love to look at those layers of basalt. I went home last month and drove through many roadway cut with those layers. I can imagine the visions of hell with all the sulfur dioxide that was emitted when that rock was flowing over the vast Columbia basin and Palouse country.
However, I still like the asteroid theory. It fits my SciFi orientation.

792 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:28:02pm

Why is it that doctors call what they do 'practice'?

793 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:28:36pm

re: #777 Jimmah

That is a compelling fact that you can't really get away from. C02 is a greenhouse gas, and man has increased the amount of it in the atmosphere. So, there has to be some man made global warming - it's a question of how much.

That is if you're operating under the assumption that the earth doesn't have its own methods of self correction. If the sum of knowledge of this planet and our climate were the size of a dinner plate, what we KNOW would be a crumb on the edge.

794 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:28:37pm

re: #775 jorline

Hi, reine.

... compromised of bibles.

I have my typos too; but compromised calls for recognition.

795 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:28:53pm

re: #788 BignJames

You've got direct coorelation?

How does adding more of a greenhouse gas not make the Earth warmer?

(Meh... I've gotten into enough of these debates that I've learned to focus on the problem rather than get jerked around)

796 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:29:04pm

Here is an interesting book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Check the editorial review...;~)

797 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:30:29pm

re: #796 Salamantis

Here is an interesting book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Check the editorial review...;~)

That is a good book. I ordered it back in May of this year.

798 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:30:45pm
Darwin was careful to acknowledge the limits to his project, writing, “I am convinced that natural selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification.”

Natural selection does not mean the same thing as survival of the fittest. Luck has had a lot to do with which mutations prevailed.

799 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:31:26pm

Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitoes?

800 beermeister  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:32:02pm

re: 781 Basho

re: #765 Sharmuta

Hmm... it's interesting that he wanting to avoiding using the word "selection" in order to "[avoid] the troublesome anthropomorphism" associated with the word. Yet, the IDers choose to attack him for the phrase "survival of the fittest"! Very ironic, indeed.

The term is attached to Darwin, whether you wish it to be or not. And why does it matter? You are getting into semantics. The following article, which I previously posted, is from scientists that discuss survival of the fittest and natural selection as it pertains to Darwin. Would you like to criticize them and other scientists that use survival of the fittest and Darwin in the same breadth?

[Link: www.ploscompbiol.org...]

Stephen Jay Gould defended Darwin and the idea of survival of the fittest by trying to explain that it is not a tautology. I disagree with Gould based on the fields of logic and reason and think it is a tautology.

[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

801 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:32:11pm

re: #778 EmmmieG

Ideas?

Oh I don't know. How about sending the kids to a real school?

802 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:32:11pm

re: #799 Racer X

He had already keeled, and could not keel again.

803 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:33:07pm

re: #798 mich-again

Natural selection does not mean the same thing as survival of the fittest. Luck has had a lot to do with which mutations prevailed.

I wouldn't say it was luck. It was mutations that proved to be beneficial that survived to be passed on.

804 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:33:07pm

re: #789 Salamantis

It may indeed, but to what...umm...degree? And is the benefit of a 10th of a point reduction in global average temperature worth the cost of an enduring global disruption of the planet's economy?

To what degree? That's the question all the research is trying to solve ;)

I just don't want to end up paying higher taxes in the future to fix all the problems of rising sea levels, etc...

I'm just objecting to the notion that this is all a fantasy/conspiracy/junk science. Of course more research is needed.

805 jorline  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:33:38pm

re: #794 Naso Tang

I have my typos too; but compromised calls for recognition.

lol...comprised...thanks.

806 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:33:50pm

re: #801 mich-again

Oh I don't know. How about sending the kids to a real school?

You mean a private school vs a government school?

807 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:34:34pm

re: #748 FurryOldGuyJeans

What do you call a 4 year lizard with 314 posts?


Wait, I resemble that remark. I'm a 3 1/2 year lizard and I only have half that many.
(of course it took me one month to lose my password, and 3 years to figure out how to get it back. Just a bit of liztardy.)

808 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:35:01pm

re: #769 ornery elephant

In my short time here I have learned that feasting on the gamy buttocks of trolls is a time honored tradition among Lizards, and does not have an upper age limit where one is forbidden from the feast after they reach a certain age.

Are you worried that you won't get a share of the troll feast if you can't cut off Lizards older than you?

809 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:35:45pm

re: #800 beermeister

re: 781 Basho

re: #765 Sharmuta

Hmm... it's interesting that he wanting to avoiding using the word "selection" in order to "[avoid] the troublesome anthropomorphism" associated with the word. Yet, the IDers choose to attack him for the phrase "survival of the fittest"! Very ironic, indeed.

The term is attached to Darwin, whether you wish it to be or not. And why does it matter? You are getting into semantics. The following article, which I previously posted, is from scientists that discuss survival of the fittest and natural selection as it pertains to Darwin. Would you like to criticize them and other scientists that use survival of the fittest and Darwin in the same breadth?

[Link: www.ploscompbiol.org...]

Stephen Jay Gould defended Darwin and the idea of survival of the fittest by trying to explain that it is not a tautology. I disagree with Gould based on the fields of logic and reason and think it is a tautology.

[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

To be technical about it, it is survival of those who are most efficient at exploiting their ecological niches. The concept of fitness in general, loke the concept of progress, has no credible place in evolutionary theory.

810 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:36:08pm

re: #804 Basho

To what degree? That's the question all the research is trying to solve ;)

I just don't want to end up paying higher taxes in the future to fix all the problems of rising sea levels, etc...

I'm just objecting to the notion that this is all a fantasy/conspiracy/junk science. Of course more research is needed.

Perhaps you can explain to me how scientists know what the temperature should be today. Based on 100 years of actual data... some of it not very accurate and another 600 years of speculation, I'm supposed to believe they've got even the most tenuous grip on the subject?

Really?

811 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:36:40pm

re: #801 mich-again

Oh I don't know. How about sending the kids to a real school?

The local middle school? The one that has my daughter's friend hating science? My daughter actually invited the young lady to our club once, just so that she could see that science could be fun and interesting.

812 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:37:25pm

re: #793 Wendya

That is if you're operating under the assumption that the earth doesn't have its own methods of self correction. If the sum of knowledge of this planet and our climate were the size of a dinner plate, what we KNOW would be a crumb on the edge.

Until such mechanisms are discovered and then their effect calculated the expectation should be an increase in temperature following an increase in amount of CO2. Some people are trying to deny that there is any sort of prima facie case for global warming at all - that is just a bad argument.

The political heat surrounding this issue isn't adding much light to either sides case.

813 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:37:59pm

re: #800 beermeister

I just thought it was funny that he chose not to use the word "selection" because that would imply design.

I'm surprised the IDers aren't saying "Darwin himself said creatures are selected! That implies intelligence!" instead of saying "Darwin said survival of the fittest! He created Hitler!"

814 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:38:02pm

re: #761 Salamantis

That is indeed empirical evidence, but its credibility has yet to be conclusively established. In fact, it has long been known that by far the main terrestrial factor in global warming is not CO2, but water vapor, over which humans have little control. Bad science is still science, and is correctable by further experiment and investigation; ID and creationism are empirically untestable, and are not science at all.


Granted that H20 vapor is a more important greenhouse gas than CO2, how is this relevant? H20 vapor, like variations in solar output, is beyond our power to influence. CO2 is the only way we have to load the dice.

The questions now are:

1) are we loading the dice enough to make a tangible difference?

2) If so, will we be happy with the result, or would we rather have it cooler?

3) If we'd rather have it cooler, how much will it cost to transition to other fuels and emphasize conservation, compared to burning coal and oil for a while longer, taking our lumps from a too-hot climate, and then making the transition when oil runs short or the problem becomes more severe?

My best estimate of the answers is yes, no, and cheaper to move to wind, solar, and nuclear sooner rather than later.

815 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:38:56pm

re: #804 Basho

To what degree? That's the question all the research is trying to solve ;)

I just don't want to end up paying higher taxes in the future to fix all the problems of rising sea levels, etc...

I'm just objecting to the notion that this is all a fantasy/conspiracy/junk science. Of course more research is needed.

The funny thing is that, since ice is less dense than water (and therefore takes up more volume per amount as ice than as water, which is why ice floats), and ice in water is 7/8th underwater anyway, there is a damn good chance that melting the ice caps could have a negligible effect on sea levels.

816 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:39:37pm

re: #812 Jimmah

Until such mechanisms are discovered and then their effect calculated the expectation should be an increase in temperature following an increase in amount of CO2. Some people are trying to deny that there is any sort of prima facie case for global warming at all - that is just a bad argument.

The political heat surrounding this issue isn't adding much light to either sides case.

Agreed. Much more elegant than I could have put it.

817 swamprat  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:39:39pm

The Lord of The Flies thread is dead.

818 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:39:49pm

I thought that 6 page article Charles linked to was pretty bland. Almost Fjordmanish in magnitude of words along with a complete lack of anything new to say.

819 swamprat  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:40:47pm

Good Lord, It lives yet.

820 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:41:06pm

re: #803 Sharmuta

I wouldn't say it was luck. It was mutations that proved to be beneficial that survived to be passed on.

The usefulness of your mutations don't matter much when a meteor hits camp.

821 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:41:25pm

re: #815 Salamantis

The funny thing is that, since ice is less dense than water (and therefore takes up more volume per amount as ice than as water, which is why ice floats), and ice in water is 7/8th underwater anyway, there is a damn good chance that melting the ice caps could have a negligible effect on sea levels.

Heh, yeah I read about that at HotAir... Of course the problem is the presence of large ice on land masses.

822 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:43:23pm

re: #814 lostlakehiker

. CO2 is the only way we have to load the dice.

The questions now are:

1) are we loading the dice enough to make a tangible difference?

2) If so, will we be happy with the result, or would we rather have it cooler?

3) If we'd rather have it cooler, how much will it cost to transition to other fuels and emphasize conservation, compared to burning coal and oil for a while longer, taking our lumps from a too-hot climate, and then making the transition when oil runs short or the problem becomes more severe?

My answers:
1.) Maybe marginally
2.) No.
3.) N/A because of 2.
4.) New Question: Should we be exploring other options?: Yes, but for a whole different set of reasons.
Of course you need to factor in that I live in Alaska, so any added warmth is definitely a plus.

823 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:43:58pm

re: #815 Salamantis

The funny thing is that, since ice is less dense than water (and therefore takes up more volume per amount as ice than as water, which is why ice floats), and ice in water is 7/8th underwater anyway, there is a damn good chance that melting the ice caps could have a negligible effect on sea levels.


True with sea ice but not the ice melt from land masses.
Damn, sucked in again.

824 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:45:11pm

re: #814 lostlakehiker

Granted that H20 vapor is a more important greenhouse gas than CO2, how is this relevant? H20 vapor, like variations in solar output, is beyond our power to influence. CO2 is the only way we have to load the dice.

The questions now are:

1) are we loading the dice enough to make a tangible difference?

2) If so, will we be happy with the result, or would we rather have it cooler?

3) If we'd rather have it cooler, how much will it cost to transition to other fuels and emphasize conservation, compared to burning coal and oil for a while longer, taking our lumps from a too-hot climate, and then making the transition when oil runs short or the problem becomes more severe?

My best estimate of the answers is yes, no, and cheaper to move to wind, solar, and nuclear sooner rather than later.

Bjorn Lomborg has done precisely such cost-benefit analyses, and found that most of the recommendations of the AGW crowd are prohibitively expensive, doing great and enduring damage to the global economy, while highly unlikely to yield significant climate benefits:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

825 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:46:20pm

re: #783 avanti

Your wasting your time, I made that point just yesterday. Prepare to hear about Mars warming, solar cycles and cow farts. If only Reagan would have made a global warming flick, we'd have a shot. Ping me if you get anywhere, but it's a waste of time. I gave up because I'm old enough that a degree or two won't matter and we'll all be dead by the time it's too late to fix it.

The unspoken assumption underlying all the AGW propaganda is that, prior to the age of industrialization, Earth's climate was optimum for Mankind's survival. Naturally-occurring climate change in the historic past is denied, or minimized. AGW skeptics like myself don't deny that a greenhouse-gas mechanism exists, but we do doubt the extrapolations made about its effects. There are mechanisms to counter that, you know. Increase the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, and plant growth will be stimulated, and some of that CO2 will be bound up in plant matter. The equilibrium point just gets reset at a slightly higher level.

And if your CO2-based global warming theory cannot explain, or be consistent with observations of warming on our sister planets, or with variances in the Sun's radiance, then it's got real problems.

The real reason to be scared of the warm-mongers is the sense of urgency they project. If, in fact, our use of fossil fuels has sparked a "greenhouse effect", it has been (on human terms) a long, slow process, an evolutionary process, if you will. A panic-stricken adoption of stringent carbon-control measures is very unlikely to show any immediate climate benefits, but will almost certainly be fraught with disasters resulting from the Law of Unintended Consequences.

It's much more sensible to adopt a conservative approach, and make evolutionary reductions in our carbon budget, and maintain the strength of our industrial economy, so that we might have a surplus of resources available if it becomes necessary to mitigate some of the consequences of climate change, howsoever caused.

826 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:46:29pm

re: #823 avanti

True with sea ice but not the ice melt from land masses.
Damn, sucked in again.

LOL
Beat ya to it.

827 swamprat  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:46:30pm

Alas, poor Piggy! I knew him well! A fellow of infinite
jest, of most excellent fancy.

828 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:46:33pm

re: #822 Haverwilde

My answers:
1.) Maybe marginally
2.) No.
3.) N/A because of 2.
4.) New Question: Should we be exploring other options?: Yes, but for a whole different set of reasons.
Of course you need to factor in that I live in Alaska, so any added warmth is definitely a plus.

Here's a climate change 101 from the EPA, pick apart what you don't like to hear:

Science

For over the past 200 years, the burning of fossil fuels, such as coal and oil, and deforestation have caused the concentrations of heat-trapping "greenhouse gases" to increase significantly in our atmosphere. These gases prevent heat from escaping to space, somewhat like the glass panels of a greenhouse.

Greenhouse gases are necessary to life as we know it, because they keep the planet's surface warmer than it otherwise would be. But, as the concentrations of these gases continue to increase in the atmosphere, the Earth's temperature is climbing above past levels. According to NOAA and NASA data, the Earth's average surface temperature has increased by about 1.2 to 1.4ºF in the last 100 years. The eight warmest years on record (since 1850) have all occurred since 1998, with the warmest year being 2005. Most of the warming in recent decades is very likely the result of human activities. Other aspects of the climate are also changing such as rainfall patterns, snow and ice cover, and sea level.

If greenhouse gases continue to increase, climate models predict that the average temperature at the Earth's surface could increase from 3.2 to 7.2ºF above 1990 levels by the end of this century. Scientists are certain that human activities are changing the composition of the atmosphere, and that increasing the concentration of greenhouse gases will change the planet's climate. But they are not sure by how much it will change, at what rate it will change, or what the exact effects will be.

829 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:47:47pm

re: #821 Basho

Heh, yeah I read about that at HotAir... Of course the problem is the presence of large ice on land masses.

If all of the ice on this planet melted, it would be unlikely to raise sea levels by a hundred feet, if that much. There's no reason to clone Noah over it...;~)

830 NY Nana  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:49:01pm

re: #763 Jimmah

This thread could get tasty again if Master Shake finds the guts to post. Not gonna happen, though is it?

Nope. Master Shake has left the building.

/He must have been all shook up.

831 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:49:14pm

re: #784 BignJames

Warmer than when?

This is bizarre. If you turn on your TV in a chilly house, it will be warmer, if ever so slightly, than it would have been had you left it off. People understand these kinds of things in ordinary settings. Any greenhouse gas will make some sort of upside difference, unless it has secondary effects on how life prospers, thereby pumping feedback loops we don't see and don't understand, resulting in less water vapor or something.

832 swamprat  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:50:38pm

Theme music

833 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:51:21pm

re: #828 avanti

Sweet. I hope you don't get discouraged by the huge number of negative responses that post is likely to get ;)

834 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:51:24pm

re: #789 Salamantis

It may indeed, but to what...umm...degree? And is the benefit of a 10th of a point reduction in global average temperature worth the cost of an enduring global disruption of the planet's economy?...

To assume that the tenth of a point is correct, is about as convincing as suggesting that the SEC works as expected and that bankers know what the hell they are doing when they make projections about the world's economy, and give awards to Madoffs in the process.

I assume that you are clear on the distinction between the effect on the global economy by acts of government (aka Co2) versus the acts of industry (aka H2O)? I am not.

I do however know that when I was a kid there were half as many people on the planet as now, and the fish were plentiful in ways we will never see again, and I have faith in scientific evidence (like evolution, where we agree), and speaking of evolution, the record will show, eventually, that this will be the period of greatest extinction since the time of the dinosaurs.

That we have an effect on this planet is irrefutable. The only valid discussion is on the degree that we can practically and affordably take action; but I warrant that any possible scenario one or two years ago would have been estimated at costs far less than we have incurred in the last few months; having nothing to do with global warming.

All things are relative.

835 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:52:36pm

re: #796 Salamantis

Here is an interesting book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Check the editorial review...;~)

Did you notice the publication date? (April 1, 2008)

836 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:52:54pm

re: #822 Haverwilde

My answers:

Of course you need to factor in that I live in Alaska, so any added warmth is definitely a plus.

Alaska is warming much faster

Alaska.

837 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:53:19pm

re: #829 Salamantis

If all of the ice on this planet melted, it would be unlikely to raise sea levels by a hundred feet, if that much. There's no reason to clone Noah over it...;~)

A hundred feet? I'm a pessimist but even I won't go that far ;)

838 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:53:41pm

re: #791 Haverwilde

Ah, you are talking about home. How I love to look at those layers of basalt. I went home last month and drove through many roadway cut with those layers. I can imagine the visions of hell with all the sulfur dioxide that was emitted when that rock was flowing over the vast Columbia basin and Palouse country.
However, I still like the asteroid theory. It fits my SciFi orientation.

I'm pretty agnostic insofar as causes of the K-T extinction go. I would note that the asteroid theory seems to be pretty comprehensive. I would also note that there does not appear to be a mass extinction associated with the eruption of the Columbia Plateau basalts, although it did get one poor critter.

839 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:54:53pm

re: #836 avanti

Alaska is warming much faster

Alaska.

Honestly, I thought I was going to click on a picture of Palin.

840 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:55:19pm

The earth, as a system, tends to compensate towards a rough equilibrium. More atmospheric CO2 simply prompts the growth of more and lusher vegetation, which breathe it.

In the past 50 years, atmospheric CO2 concentrations have only increased 85 parts per million, to 385 parts per million (0.0385 %)

841 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:56:05pm

re: #771 sattv4u2

What do you call a 4 year lizard with 314 posts?


I dunno ,,,perhaps someone that has a (GASP) LIFE !

I might have agreed with such an assessment if he had not been so intent on hanging out here doing drive-by dings.

842 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:56:19pm

Wow... I had no idea there was a new thread... I'm used to the trolls on the evolution thread to announce when a new one appears in an effort to get everyone to go there. I guess these guys aren't around anymore, heh.

843 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:56:34pm

re: #839 EmmmieG

Honestly, I thought I was going to click on a picture of Palin.

LMAO!

844 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:57:28pm

re: #795 Basho

How does adding more of a greenhouse gas not make the Earth warmer?

(Meh... I've gotten into enough of these debates that I've learned to focus on the problem rather than get jerked around)

Saturation. Once you have absorbed all the available radiation at a given wavelength, adding more of the absorptive medium will not have any further effect. Some AGW skeptics contend that the saturation point has already been reached w.r.t. CO2.

845 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:57:53pm

re: #834 Naso Tang

To assume that the tenth of a point is correct, is about as convincing as suggesting that the SEC works as expected and that bankers know what the hell they are doing when they make projections about the world's economy, and give awards to Madoffs in the process.

I assume that you are clear on the distinction between the effect on the global economy by acts of government (aka Co2) versus the acts of industry (aka H2O)? I am not.

I do however know that when I was a kid there were half as many people on the planet as now, and the fish were plentiful in ways we will never see again, and I have faith in scientific evidence (like evolution, where we agree), and speaking of evolution, the record will show, eventually, that this will be the period of greatest extinction since the time of the dinosaurs.

That we have an effect on this planet is irrefutable. The only valid discussion is on the degree that we can practically and affordably take action; but I warrant that any possible scenario one or two years ago would have been estimated at costs far less than we have incurred in the last few months; having nothing to do with global warming.

All things are relative.

Species extinction has overwhelmingly to do with habitat destruction, not global warming. And collapsing fish populations have to do with massive commercial overfishing.

846 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:58:12pm

re: #822 Haverwilde

My answers:
1.) Maybe marginally
2.) No.
3.) N/A because of 2.
4.) New Question: Should we be exploring other options?: Yes, but for a whole different set of reasons.
Of course you need to factor in that I live in Alaska, so any added warmth is definitely a plus.

Agreed on 4. There are sufficient reasons, entirely apart from global warming, to pursue other energy options. That's one of the reasons I judge the cost to be modest. We would be doing something on the AGW front that we would very nearly have to do anyhow.

As to "definite plus", granted. For you. I live a lot further south. Shoe on Other Foot.

847 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 8:59:03pm

re: #840 Salamantis

The earth, as a system, tends to compensate towards a rough equilibrium. More atmospheric CO2 simply prompts the growth of more and lusher vegetation, which breathe it.

In the past 50 years, atmospheric CO2 concentrations have only increased 85 parts per million, to 385 parts per million (0.0385 %)

Curse you and your hard numbers! This is a blog and you want me to do more research on a topic? This isn't how debates are supposed to be done! What will the ID trolls think when they see this?!?

/ ;P

848 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:00:37pm

re: #845 Salamantis

Species extinction has overwhelmingly to do with habitat destruction, not global warming. And collapsing fish populations have to do with massive commercial overfishing.

And to that I counter with changes in bird migration! I have taken your pawn...

849 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:02:33pm

re: #814 lostlakehiker

H20 vapor, like variations in solar output, is beyond our power to influence. CO2 is the only way we have to load the dice.

Hardly. Have you ever heard of the pollution saving invention known as a scrubber? To reduce particulate emissions in coal burning power plants and other industrial factories water drops are used to pull the particles from the exhaust airstream. This ends up with airflow being humidified to essentially 100% RH. And there are thousands of cooling towers across the world that utilize the heat of formation of water vapor to cool the water used in industrial processes. That makes water vapor as well. Those big cooling towers near nuclear plants are pumping out humid air which means water vapor. As for air conditioning in desert climates, that always involves latent cooling which means water is evaporated in the air to cool it down.

If you could add up all the air that we are continuously humidifying in scrubbers or cooling towers or evaporative coolers, I would make a conservative guess that its about a billion cubic feet per minute. Thats 24-7. It has to be a part of the model for climate change.

850 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:03:48pm

AGW?

The jury is still out.

More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.” - UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,” - Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.” - U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.” – . Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.

“For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" - Geologist Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.

“Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined.” - Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.

851 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:03:49pm

re: #829 Salamantis

If all of the ice on this planet melted, it would be unlikely to raise sea levels by a hundred feet, if that much. There's no reason to clone Noah over it...;~)

Great map at this link. Scroll over to the gulf coast and flood some cities with sea level rise.

sea level

852 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:03:51pm

One objection to the article = 'As conservative columnist John Derbyshire commented, “the Act will encourage Louisiana local school boards to unconstitutional behavior. That’s what it’s meant to do.”'

It is true that Derb wrote this, and that he is (my kind of) conservative. But the SciAm article can be construed such that Derb supports tossing out the Constitution on behalf of creationism. Derb's statement, Patsy Jindal, in fact argues the opposite; that Jindal is "an easy mark for a gang of sleazy confidence tricksters".

Other than that, which I might be overthinking, SciAm did well with this topic.

853 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:04:38pm

re: #840 Salamantis

The earth, as a system, tends to compensate towards a rough equilibrium. More atmospheric CO2 simply prompts the growth of more and lusher vegetation, which breathe it.

In the past 50 years, atmospheric CO2 concentrations have only increased 85 parts per million, to 385 parts per million (0.0385 %)

In the really long run, weathering leaches out CO2. This effect isn't going to make any difference in our lifetime or our grandchildren's lifetime, though. Yet longer term, as the sun grows warmer, these effects intensify. Life is already suffering from a shortage of atmospheric CO2 compared to the lush days of bygone carboniferous era.

But what about us, humanity? As a species, we are only 50-100 thousand years old. We evolved during a time of low C02 and relative cool. What's good for giant dragonflies might not be good for us. And on that kind of timescale, this runup in CO2 is a bolt of lightning. Plants cannot reseed fast enough to keep up with the migrating climate belts.

854 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:04:46pm

re: #830 NY Nana

Nope. Master Shake has left the building.

/He must have been all shook up.

lol :)

855 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:06:04pm

re: #848 Basho

And to that I counter with changes in bird migration! I have taken your pawn...

Birds migrate not according to temperature, but according to earth's magnetic fields and the positions of the sun and stars.

856 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:06:32pm

re: #840 Salamantis


The earth, as a system, tends to compensate towards a rough equilibrium. More atmospheric CO2 simply prompts the growth of more and lusher vegetation, which breathe it.

Only in a perfect world where the natural correction factor of more lush vegetation eating all the extra CO2 could kick in. The problem is that humans are deforesting the planet at the same time so relying on more vegetation for a correction factor is iffy.

857 Aye Pod  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:06:47pm

re: #816 Basho

re: #816 Basho

Cheers Basho. This is turning into an interesting discussion, but I'll have to read it tomorrow as it's time for me to turn in. Nite folks:)

858 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:07:45pm

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

I understand that Obama will institute a different sort of Observe-a-Tory system somewhere about the middle of his term.

Bahahah. I like that. Will he be pointing it at my window? I really do need to buy some banners of Bonnie Prince Charlie

859 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:08:52pm

re: #845 Salamantis

Species extinction has overwhelmingly to do with habitat destruction, not global warming. And collapsing fish populations have to do with massive commercial overfishing.

Without wanting to get sucked into this vortex, as it is late, I will simply suggest that the above issue are actually linked in ways you don't want to acknowledge. Global warming, as it is imagined is not simply a matter of gas guzzlers and nasty factory chimneys. It is also payments, buildings, golf courses and deforestation (and oceans too) on a massive scale worldwide. Oversimplification is intellectually dishonest.

But it is fun to find that we disagree in some areas. ;)

860 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:09:07pm

re: #828 avanti

The eight warmest years on record (since 1850) have all occurred since 1998, with the warmest year being 2005. Most of the warming in recent decades is very likely the result of human activities. Other aspects of the climate are also changing such as rainfall patterns, snow and ice cover, and sea level.

If greenhouse gases continue to increase, climate models predict that the average temperature at the Earth's surface could increase from 3.2 to 7.2ºF above 1990 levels by the end of this century. Scientists are certain that human activities are changing the composition of the atmosphere, and that increasing the concentration of greenhouse gases will change the planet's climate. But they are not sure by how much it will change, at what rate it will change, or what the exact effects will be.

Restating propaganda does not make it true. Look at the studies and you will find that the 1930s had years warmer than the present. There has been a cooling period over the last 8 years.
Your facts are just bullshit!

861 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:09:58pm

re: #855 Salamantis

Birds migrate not according to temperature, but according to earth's magnetic fields and the positions of the sun and stars.

Er... that's how they migrate and not why...

862 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:10:49pm

re: #836 avanti

Yet the ice has formed so fast this year that it trapped 200 whales in the ice. So it was authorize to kill them all.

863 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:11:04pm

Time to retire. I look forward to the inevitable continuation of this topic.

Nite nite

864 Basho  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:12:33pm

Yeah, I should be going to bed too. I look forward to waking up and seeing that this thread has 3478943 comments ;D

865 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:12:48pm

re: #851 avanti

Great map at this link. Scroll over to the gulf coast and flood some cities with sea level rise.

sea level

So how do you plan to move New Orleans, if you have shut down all the carbon-spewing industries that generate the tax dollars?

And meanwhile, China and India, exempt from the strictures of the Kyoto Accord, continue to build smokestack industries, and coal-burning power plants.

The CO2 isn't going to go away. All that will change is the focus of its source.

And whose palms get greased.

866 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:13:17pm

re: #849 mich-again

Hardly. Have you ever heard of the pollution saving invention known as a scrubber? To reduce particulate emissions in coal burning power plants and other industrial factories water drops are used to pull the particles from the exhaust airstream. This ends up with airflow being humidified to essentially 100% RH. And there are thousands of cooling towers across the world that utilize the heat of formation of water vapor to cool the water used in industrial processes. That makes water vapor as well. Those big cooling towers near nuclear plants are pumping out humid air which means water vapor. As for air conditioning in desert climates, that always involves latent cooling which means water is evaporated in the air to cool it down.

If you could add up all the air that we are continuously humidifying in scrubbers or cooling towers or evaporative coolers, I would make a conservative guess that its about a billion cubic feet per minute. Thats 24-7. It has to be a part of the model for climate change.

Suppose I grant your numbers. My bet is that oceanic evaporation massively dwarfs it. Our entire energy consumption worldwide hardly amounts to a few minutes of one day's sunlight on the Pacific ocean, after all. And not all of that energy goes to evaporating water.

OK, now for the numbers. A puddle will lose 1 cm of water to evaporation over the course of a day, easy. Now, take the Pacific. Half the earth's surface area, 4 Pi r^2 etc. yadda yadda I get 3*10^11 cubic meters per minute, on average. 300 times your number. Plus, evaporation, from whatever source, tends to get canceled off by precipitation. CO2 levels can go higher and higher and higher, but H2O vapor levels go back and forth. Come back with your argument when we've flooded the Qatara depression to create an inland sea in Egypt so that there can be more cloud cover and more rain in the Sahara.

867 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:14:05pm

re: #851 avanti

Great map at this link. Scroll over to the gulf coast and flood some cities with sea level rise.

sea level

Onj the plus side, much inhabitable territory would be opened up in Greenland, where wheat was grown a thousand years ago, when it was much warmer than it is today. And humanity seems to have survived it...

868 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:14:58pm

re: #850 Racer X

AGW?

The jury is still out.

More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims


Oh no, the 650 list yet again:

"Inhofe's Ridiculous List of 650 "Scientists" Who Dismiss GlobaL Warming
Dec 16, 2008 10:34 AM


You have to laugh when you see the anti-science crowd in the Republican party and such eminent analysts as Rush Limbaugh -- college dropout and uneducated drug addict and James Inhofe -- Religious fanatic and kook -- tell us there is no proof of Global Warming.

So they produce of "list" of 650 so-called scientists who question global warming. WHat top scientists are on the list? Well, virtually none in the area of science involved, certianly no credible or serious ones. Some have asked their names be removed, some are minor TV weathermen with degrees in "broadcast meteorology," some are Medical Doctors, some are trained in agriculture or geology, some are graduate students. All from minor schools you never heard of -- with good reason.

NONE accredited or serious climate scientists, NONE are to be listened to for five seconds.

Yet the vast majority of those names are simply repeated from a 2007 list that was widely debunked."

869 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:17:33pm

re: #868 avanti

Dr. Edward Wegman--former chairman of the Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics of the National Academy of Sciences--demolishes the famous "hockey stick" graph that launched the global warming panic.

Dr. David Bromwich--president of the International Commission on Polar Meteorology--says "it's hard to see a global warming signal from the mainland of Antarctica right now."

Prof. Paul Reiter--Chief of Insects and Infectious Diseases at the famed Pasteur Institute--says "no major scientist with any long record in this field" accepts Al Gore's claim that global warming spreads mosquito-borne diseases.

Prof. Hendrik Tennekes--director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute--states "there exists no sound theoretical framework for climate predictability studies" used for global warming forecasts.

Dr. Christopher Landsea--past chairman of the American Meteorological Society's Committee on Tropical Meteorology and Tropical Cyclones--says "there are no known scientific studies that show a conclusive physical link between global warming and observed hurricane frequency and intensity."

Dr. Antonino Zichichi--one of the world's foremost physicists, former president of the European Physical Society, who discovered nuclear antimatter--calls global warming models "incoherent and invalid."

Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski--world-renowned expert on the ancient ice cores used in climate research--says the U.N. "based its global-warming hypothesis on arbitrary assumptions and these assumptions, it is now clear, are false."

Prof. Tom V. Segalstad--head of the Geological Museum, University of Oslo--says "most leading geologists" know the U.N.'s views "of Earth processes are implausible."

Dr. Syun-Ichi Akasofu--founding director of the International Arctic Research Center, twice named one of the "1,000 Most Cited Scientists," says much "Arctic warming during the last half of the last century is due to natural change."

Dr. Claude Allegre--member, U.S. National Academy of Sciences and French Academy of Science, he was among the first to sound the alarm on the dangers of global warming. His view now: "The cause of this climate change is unknown."

Dr. Richard Lindzen--Professor of Meteorology at M.I.T., member, the National Research Council Board on Atmospheric Sciences and Climate, says global warming alarmists "are trumpeting catastrophes that couldn't happen even if the models were right."

Dr. Habibullo Abdussamatov--head of the space research laboratory of the Russian Academy of Science's Pulkovo Observatory and of the International Space Station's Astrometria project says "the common view that man's industrial activity is a deciding factor in global warming has emerged from a misinterpretation of cause and effect relations."

Dr. Richard Tol--Principal researcher at the Institute for Environmental Studies at Vrije Universiteit, and Adjunct Professor at the Center for Integrated Study of the Human Dimensions of Global Change, at Carnegie Mellon University, calls the most influential global warming report of all time "preposterous . . . alarmist and incompetent."

Dr. Sami Solanki--director and scientific member at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Germany, who argues that changes in the Sun's state, not human activity, may be the principal cause of global warming: "The sun has been at its strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affecting global temperatures."

Prof. Freeman Dyson--one of the world's most eminent physicists says the models used to justify global warming alarmism are "full of fudge factors" and "do not begin to describe the real world."

Dr. Eigils Friis-Christensen--director of the Danish National Space Centre, vice-president of the International Association of Geomagnetism and Aeronomy, who argues that changes in the Sun's behavior could account for most of the warming attributed by the UN to man-made CO2.

870 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:18:46pm

re: #271 beermeister

Dinged down because of this:

I don't think all these Christians, not just evangelicals, are fighting on this front and other fronts only because they really want creationism in public school, which they will not get.

Where Christians care about moral issues and good teaching, they (we) fight on those fronts. The only people fighting against evolution teaching are the creationists. The End.

This ain't the place for obfuscations, mate.

871 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:18:58pm

re: #866 lostlakehiker

Suppose I grant your numbers. My bet is that oceanic evaporation massively dwarfs it.

I doubt that. Natural oceanic evaporation and the simultaneous precipitation of water vapor as rain or snow somewhere else across the globe probably balance themselves out more or less. They did for millions of years before we got here anyway. But all of those manual inputs of increased water vapor do nothing but add to the total of water absorbed in the air.

872 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:19:00pm

re: #856 mich-again

Only in a perfect world where the natural correction factor of more lush vegetation eating all the extra CO2 could kick in. The problem is that humans are deforesting the planet at the same time so relying on more vegetation for a correction factor is iffy.

Crops are also vegetation. Much of the deforestation is being done to open up new croplands. Farmers have an interest is maximizing the output of their croplands, so fixing more carbon (=equals greater mass of plant product) is in their best interest, too. Mature forests tend to be carbon-neutral, as over-mature trees die, rot, and release CO2 to the atmosphere. Saw them down, convert them into 2X4s or hardwood furniture, and that carbon stays fixed for several generations.

873 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:21:07pm

re: #860 Haverwilde

Restating propaganda does not make it true. Look at the studies and you will find that the 1930s had years warmer than the present. There has been a cooling period over the last 8 years.
Your facts are just bullshit!

NASA disagrees with your numbers

World temps.

874 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:22:41pm

re: #861 Basho

Er... that's how they migrate and not why...

The snowbirds migrate to Arizona every winter because they don't like the cold here in Canada. And they aren't shy about telling you that!

875 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:22:42pm

re: #872 Alberta Oil Peon

(=equals greater mass of plant product)

I am not convinced that 1,000 acres of soybeans has a greater mass of plant product than 1,000 acres of forest.

876 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:23:26pm

re: #812 Jimmah

Until such mechanisms are discovered and then their effect calculated the expectation should be an increase in temperature following an increase in amount of CO2.

Uh... the data actually shows increases in CO2 follows an increase in temperature.

CO2 isn't driving temperatures... it's the other way around.

877 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:24:18pm

re: #873 avanti

NASA disagrees with your numbers

World temps.

[Link: www.globalwarminghoax.com...]

878 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:26:54pm

re: #872 Alberta Oil Peon

Crops are also vegetation. Mature forests tend to be carbon-neutral, as over-mature trees die, rot, and release CO2 to the atmosphere. Saw them down, convert them into 2X4s or hardwood furniture, and that carbon stays fixed for several generations.

Yes, something we can agree on. Cutting down mature forest, which are carbon neutral, converting them to 2x4s to lock in the carbon and then allow new forests to grow sucking the CO2 out.
So why are the environmentalists so set on locking up the forests to logging?

879 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:28:04pm

re: #868 avanti

Where are you copying and pasting your information from?

880 jaunte  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:29:00pm

Here's a tangent tidbit on the forest vs. farming subject:
"It is estimated that between 70% and 80% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by marine plants. Nearly all marine plants are single celled, photosynthetic algae."
"...algae produces about 330 billion tons of oxygen each year."
[Link: ecology.com...]

881 Haverwilde  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:29:04pm

re: #877 Salamantis
Sal, you are amazing. The data you have at your fingertips is just wonderful. Thanks.
I really have to go.
Good night...again.

882 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:29:30pm

re: #877 Salamantis

[Link: www.globalwarminghoax.com...]

In a stunning turn of events data (quietly) released by NASA shows that the 4 warmest years ever recorded occurred in the 1930's, with the warmest year on record being 1934 (not 1998). Lets see if Al Gore revises his road show. Update - Global Warming is actually a Y2K bug!

Avanti - perhaps you missed the NASA update?

883 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:30:01pm

re: #836 avanti

Alaska is warming much faster

Alaska.

Uh-huh. I guess that explains why: Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years.

[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

884 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:31:54pm

re: #869 Salamantis

Here's a dissection of the list, name by name.

list

885 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:33:34pm

Still waiting for an adherent of the church of global warming to tell us exactly what the temperature would be today if we didn't have the horrific internal combustion engines...

886 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:34:47pm

re: #878 Haverwilde

You'd have to show me the math how cutting down a mature tree and replacing it with a sapling will pull more carbon from the air. Around here I rake leaves from the trees in the backyard for a month and pile all the leaves in the back 40 where they biodegrade into mulch in a couple years. I don't see that much CO2 getting removed from the air from some 12" tall saplings.

887 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:34:58pm

re: #883 Wendya

Uh-huh. I guess that explains why: Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years.

[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

One year out of 250, a ice age is a coming. No one ever said that there would not yearly variations in the upward trend.

888 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:36:44pm

re: #875 mich-again

I am not convinced that 1,000 acres of soybeans has a greater mass of plant product than 1,000 acres of forest.

It's not the total mass, it's the yearly increase of mass that's the critical factor. A mature forest may have a huge mass of carbon per acre, but most of that has been there for centuries. New growth tends to be offset by the death and decay of over-mature trees.

Plant 1000 acres of soybeans, and a few dozen tons of seed become thousands of tons of mature plants at the end of the growing season. Now, exactly how much of that plant matter goes on to become a real carbon sink can be problematic. That would vary from crop to crop, I expect.

This is one of the rationales behind growing biofuels. Plant a crop, harvest it, turn it into fuel, burn it, and next year's crop absorbs the CO2 produced. Closed cycle, supposedly. But biofuels don't seem to be very efficient at capturing solar energy, at least not yet.

889 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:39:47pm

re: #887 avanti


No one ever said that there would not yearly variations in the upward trend.

Its really hard to defend the notion that mankind's behavior is causing the planet to warm while the same behavior keeps happening but the planet is cooling instead of warming. When the message is all about setting off alarms, there is no room for "variations in trends".

890 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:40:33pm

The warmest ten years in the last century, and the degree they deviated from the norm:

Year Average temp in degrees over 100 year average
1934 1.25
1998 1.23
1921 1.15
2006 1.13
1931 1.08
1999 0.93
1953 0.90
1990 0.87
1938 0.86
1939 0.85

891 mich-again  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:40:52pm

re: #888 Alberta Oil Peon

Good explanation.

892 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:42:42pm

re: #736 MandyManners

The way he threw up supporting me in the past pissed me off. This isn't a political game.

Hey I've supported you in the past! I've also flamed you in the past. I "give props to some and others, I dissed 'em".

If I say something stupid I hope my fellow lizards have the fortitude to call me on it (and to do it fairly!), notwithstanding their personal opinions toward me.

893 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:45:38pm

re: #884 avanti

Here's a dissection of the list, name by name.

list

I must be missing it. I only see a mention of a list of 31,000 scientists from 2001. The link I posted above is from the U.S. Senate committee on climate change updated December 2008.

894 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:46:09pm

re: #885 Wendya

Still waiting for an adherent of the church of global warming to tell us exactly what the temperature would be today if we didn't have the horrific internal combustion engines...

1.4 degrees since 1890, and rising at a faster rate. A bit of trivia recently discovered. If we reduce pollution, it will increase faster as the atmosphere clears of high level pollution. `

895 Zimriel  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:49:54pm

re: #663 Sharmuta

"Survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer, not Darwin.

Ah, that's nit picking. "Survival of the fittest" is a good-enough summary of the "natural" part of Darwin's "natural selection"; it becomes a loser when applied as an ideal in society (which it was never designed to be). Similarly, "wall of separation" is a slogan (Jefferson's) which sums up the "no religious test for office" clause in the Constitution.

896 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:50:43pm

re: #893 Racer X

I must be missing it. I only see a mention of a list of 31,000 scientists from 2001. The link I posted above is from the U.S. Senate committee on climate change updated December 2008.

It's a reply to your list of 650 on a blog, name by name. The 31,000 mentioned, but not listed at the link I posted, are the ones that are in the field and support climate change.

897 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:51:02pm

re: #894 avanti

1.4 degrees since 1890, and rising at a faster rate. A bit of trivia recently discovered. If we reduce pollution, it will increase faster as the atmosphere clears of high level pollution. `

What was the temperature 160,000 years ago and do the same models used to predict AGW explain past temperatures?

No. Of course not.

And you didn't answer the question. Are we supposed to be 1.4 degrees cooler? If so, what is the proof to support that notion?

898 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:53:32pm

re: #896 avanti

It's a reply to your list of 650 on a blog, name by name. The 31,000 mentioned, but not listed at the link I posted, are the ones that are in the field and support climate change.

Hmm... OK - I didn't see anything to refute the 650 scientists who question AGW.

899 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:57:30pm

re: #897 Wendya

It's too late to Google check the temps 160,000 ago, but reliable data only can go back a few 1000 years. If your point is that it was much warmer and colder in th distant past, I'll give you that.
As to what the temp would be without the extra C02, cooler by .33 to .5 C is the best data.

900 Wendya  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 9:59:13pm

re: #899 avanti


As to what the temp would be without the extra C02, cooler by .33 to .5 C is the best data.

Based on what evidence?

A computer model?

You did see my post about CO2 levels trailing temperatures, didn't you?

901 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:00:46pm

re: #898 Racer X

Hmm... OK - I didn't see anything to refute the 650 scientists who question AGW.

I must have confused the list with the insect guy and such with another poster.

902 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:02:33pm

re: #899 avanti

Are you Tankey?

What you have in the motley Denialist are Luddites and uneducated fabulists and economic pirates making up their version of science to suit their own agendas. Anything that requires the world cooperate and make an effort thrugh unity and international comity to fix makes these kooks crazy.

They hate world cooperation, has to be a commie plot you see...

?

903 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:07:28pm

re: #877 Salamantis

[Link: www.globalwarminghoax.com...]

Oh for crying out loud, that was US temp, not world, read the page. Yes it was warmer in the US during the dust bowl drought. Grape of Wrath and all that, we are talking global warming, not US.
Enough, never should have been got started.

904 VioletTiger  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:08:38pm

re: #803 Sharmuta

I wouldn't say it was luck. It was mutations that proved to be beneficial that survived to be passed on.

Agree. The variation that had the advantage was passed on because the individual lived to pass on their DNA. This is still going on today. Think drug-resistant bacteria and pesticide-resistant bugs.

Wow, I missed a great thread on two of my favorite topics. So many well-informed lizards. But I had to finally get my tree decorated, and I made a great batch of toffee. Anybody want some?

905 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:10:31pm

re: #902 Racer X

Are you Tankey?

?

Nope, just Googled like 650 scientist list like you did..

906 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:14:06pm

re: #879 Racer X

Where are you copying and pasting your information from?

Google is my friend.

907 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:15:40pm
908 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:18:09pm

re: #905 avanti

Nope, just Googled like 650 scientist list like you did..

See now I'm curious as to why you would quote such a rabid liberal in your #868?

909 Racer X  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:25:57pm

I would believe in man-made global warming just a little bit more if the main proponent wasn't such a hypocrite and a fear monger, and didn't profit by selling carbon offsets.

So I remain skeptical.

Senator Inhofe is not making a dime (that I know of) by taking the opposite stance.

910 SteveC  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:26:03pm

re: #907 Iron Fist

They are still finding mass graves 'n shit left over from the War of Northern Aggression.

My boss, a Southern Gentleman, got his first job at the Farmer's Museum in Cooperstown, NY. A week later he was being interviewed by the local newspaper... they liked to run a feature on a different citizen each week.

The question was asked, "We've seen you walk to work several times. How does a Southerner feel when he walks by a NORTHERN Civil War monument?"

"I quite admire it," boss says.

"Really?" the reporter says, amazed.

"Yes, it is one of the finest memorials to the accuracy of Southern Marksmanship that I have ever seen!"

For some reason, the reporter left that tidbit out...!

911 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:27:14pm
912 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:27:14pm

re: #908 Racer X

See now I'm curious as to why you would quote such a rabid liberal in your #868?

Because the link on History.Com was the first one I found on google. If I could have found it on from a rabid Conservative site I would have used that. Sadly, it appears to be a political issue, but the same list is dissected on pure science pages too. Give me a minute and I'll find a neutral site.

913 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:32:39pm

re: #911 Iron Fist

I have a little quibble with your data. I don't know where they got their "norm" to compare. Temperature change is as natural as the Solar wind. Any number you pick as the "norm" is essentially arbitrary. We've only been capturing data since around the time of WWII. Geologically speaking, that timeframe is ludicris. It is to small to draw any real conclusions from it. Even if you had some imperical data from the time of the Pharos until now, it would still be too small to be able to draw any conclusions as to what the "normal" temperature should be.

There is no such thing as a normal temperature. There are only average temperatures, and even then, those temperatures are only average in the context of the range of temperatures they summate, not of all temperatures since the earth was formed.

Compared with a thousand years ago, the earth is positively chilly right now. And I don't really think that humans had much to do with jacking up CO2 levels back then...

914 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:36:30pm
915 avanti  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 10:47:39pm

re: #912 avanti

Been on google for 20 minutes and can't find a right wing site dismissing the list, nor a left wing or environmental supporting it. No surprise really. Not sure where the name by name dismissal came from, but it speaks for itself.

Good night all, it's been interesting.

916 Mr Secul  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 11:42:09pm

re: #790 Wendya

Science, as a field can only blame itself for not policing out the nuts and ideologues.

That's not how its done. They get their say, they present their evidence. Then other scientists try to reproduce their results, test the consequences of their predictions, check their interpretations of their data. They fact check them.

If the nut's theories hold water then the scientists start to take them seriously, if they don't then they are refuted and science moves on.

This is what happened with irreducible complexity. Its predictions were tested against the predictions of the theory of evolution.

In every example that Behe gave, evolution's predictions were found to be true and IC's predictions turned out to be wrong.

So, until someone comes up with a real example of an IC system, IC is not considered to be a viable working hypothesis by the scientific community.

917 Salamantis  Thu, Dec 18, 2008 11:52:44pm

I love to munch a tasty troll
They're yummy when they lose control
And when they flame out
And melt down and fold
Their gamy buttocks soothe my soul

I don't begrudge the frenzied feast
Upon the carcass of the beast
But when you fall upon
The flayed corpse and chow down
Please Lizards save a haunch for me

918 mean Gene  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:10:36am

re: #916 Mr Secul

I really appreciate your statement.
And that is the way it used to be.
Peer review used to be the test.
But peer review is falling out of favor lately.
Some scientific journals say they haven't the staff to do it before publication of every research-based article.
So they just don't.
Researchers even tried to say, because of it, peer review was becoming irrelevant.

Peer review in science and technology has been the subject of significant controversy.
In a world where finding information is laborious, the knowledge that a document is from a "“trusted source" is valuable. This presentation explores whether coming of Google and other web based search engines have impacted how science is done, peer reviewed and published and whether the present peer review process is necessary and maintains the quality and focus of a journal and articles published.
With increasing number of Open Access Institutional Repositories worldwide and indexed by Google, more and more scientific literature is now visible than before and hence resulting in increased worldwide access to scientific literature.
Quality blogs and wikis have speeded up the process of scientific communication through informal peer reviews while the present system of formal peer review still attempts to maintain quality of a reserach paper although it tends to slow down the process of scientific communication. More debate and discussion on issues mentioned will further shed light on this important subject of peer reviews in Google environment.

Abstract of Peer Review in the Google Age: Is technology changing the way science is done and evaluated?
by: M Dominy, JC Bradley, J Bhatt

But, when I was going to school, it wasn't ''creationism and ID" that were constantly being refuted by peer reviewers.
It was one evolution researcher after the next.
The ones that stood out were not falsified but rather simply poor research like the one that had the tails of dinosaurs connected in such a way as to be impossible in real life.
It was quite common to read the ''the oldest human skull'' was found (again) here or there on the planet...right where the researcher predicted it would be...only to have that skull's age turn out to be less that the next skull found elsewhere by another researcher.
Less to do with evolution, women used to be told to take hormone replacement at menopause but now research shows they probably should never do that unless...
Seems that until more recently, women were not used in research but many doctors chose a pill regimen to shut them up and make them docile.
It is good when peer review proves anything is a false or weak research, ID or whatever.
I hope it (peer review) keeps going strong but there are currents running against it.

919 Joan  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 4:20:15am

re: #101 Bobibutu

Totally hopeless. "Pedagogy" and socialist tripe have destroyed public education. I know there are other factors, and it is a complex issue, a cycle of blah blah blah. Totally hopeless for how many K-12 generations? Hmmm. Let's take 12 years as an educational "generation." Start counting at 1950, when the Look, Say! Dick and Jane pablum supplanted actual books in reading classes.

Okay, let's call it 4.5 generations of students rendered imbecile by the triumph of John Dewey's Progressive Education Movement. Those not rendered imbecile can thank their teachers, and their parents, for counteracting this clear subversion. Nonetheless, it has been a war of attrition. Combined with other Progressive triumphs, we have become a nation of Eloi.

920 viciouscircledammit  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 4:49:48am

Something like 90% of people in America believe in God. Therefore, they believe in a Creator. Is it so preposterous to allow students to at least be able to ask the question of whether there is evidence of design? If they look and find nothing, then fine. That's science. But the feeling I get on this site is they're not allowed to look, which is fascism.

Bracing for the downdings. How dare I!

921 Mr Secul  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 5:17:38am

re: #918 mean Gene

I really appreciate your statement.
And that is the way it used to be.
Peer review used to be the test.
But peer review is falling out of favor lately.
Some scientific journals say they haven't the staff to do it before publication of every research-based article.
So they just don't.
Researchers even tried to say, because of it, peer review was becoming irrelevant.

You read an article and concluded that peer review is dead...

When did this happen? You said that it used to be the case, when did it stop? Are there no cases of peer review these days? He asked rhetorically.

Abstract of Peer Review in the Google Age: Is technology changing the way science is done and evaluated?
by: M Dominy, JC Bradley, J Bhatt

I tracked that down to a power point presentation with some nice cartoons.

I can't argue with a power point presentation with cartoons: peer review is dead.

But, when I was going to school, it wasn't ''creationism and ID" that were constantly being refuted by peer reviewers.
It was one evolution researcher after the next.

There we go, peer review proves that evolution is nonsense.

The ones that stood out were not falsified but rather simply poor research like the one that had the tails of dinosaurs connected in such a way as to be impossible in real life.

Oh good grief. Was that an argument against evolution? What are you trying to say?

I hope it (peer review) keeps going strong but there are currents running against it.

Got to watch those currents, they're tricky.

922 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 5:29:47am

re: #920 viciouscircledammit

Something like 90% of people in America believe in God. Therefore, they believe in a Creator. Is it so preposterous to allow students to at least be able to ask the question of whether there is evidence of design? If they look and find nothing, then fine. That's science. But the feeling I get on this site is they're not allowed to look, which is fascism.

Bracing for the downdings. How dare I!

Science is not a popularity contest; it is a search for the facts of the matter. When the entire human populace believed in a flat earth circled by the sun, a spherical earth still revolved around it.

If students ask the question "is there empirical evidence of design?", the honest answer is a resounding NO. Not a single datum. Not one.

Scientists have been looking for empirical evidence of intelligent design for 150 years, and all the evidence they have found favors evolutionary theory. And they have found a lot.

923 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 5:30:12am

re: #920 viciouscircledammit

Something like 90% of people in America believe in God. Therefore, they believe in a Creator. Is it so preposterous to allow students to at least be able to ask the question of whether there is evidence of design? If they look and find nothing, then fine. That's science. But the feeling I get on this site is they're not allowed to look, which is fascism.

Bracing for the downdings. How dare I!

Kids can ask the question as much as they want - they can ask it of their parents, they can ask it in religion or philosophy courses, they can ask it of the clergy - there are numerous places where this questions would be appropriate.

Science class is not one of those places.

Why the insistence that these questions be asked in science classes, rather than in more appropriate settings?

Why the insistence that the state, through the school systems, be allowed to take this question out of the hands of parents and the clergy of various denominiations?

924 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 5:43:01am

re: #922 Salamantis

Science is not a popularity contest; it is a search for the facts of the matter. When the entire human populace believed in a flat earth circled by the sun, a spherical earth still revolved around it.

If students ask the question "is there empirical evidence of design?", the honest answer is a resounding NO. Not a single datum. Not one.

Scientists have been looking for empirical evidence of intelligent design for 150 years, and all the evidence they have found favors evolutionary theory. And they have found a lot.

For those of us who believe evolutionary theory is valid and well-documented, and who also believe in the Creator - the "intelligent design" is that God created the evolutionary process. What a wonderfully complex and "well-designed" world we live in!

In my mind, it is an insult to God when we fail to use the intelligence He gave us, replacing it with a denial of all that he has provided us, including the complexities of how the world operates.

925 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 5:44:38am

re: #918 mean Gene

I really appreciate your statement.
And that is the way it used to be.
Peer review used to be the test.
But peer review is falling out of favor lately.
Some scientific journals say they haven't the staff to do it before publication of every research-based article.
So they just don't.
Researchers even tried to say, because of it, peer review was becoming irrelevant.

Please name me a credible scientific journal that does not submit prospective articles to peer review. Mr. Secul's critique of the article you proffered is sufficient for me.

But, when I was going to school, it wasn't ''creationism and ID" that were constantly being refuted by peer reviewers.
It was one evolution researcher after the next.

Please cite examples, with links.

The ones that stood out were not falsified but rather simply poor research like the one that had the tails of dinosaurs connected in such a way as to be impossible in real life.

Once again, a link would be nice. Since the vertebrae are graduated according to size from larger near the butt to smaller near the tip, it is difficult to see how this could possibly be the case.

It was quite common to read the ''the oldest human skull'' was found (again) here or there on the planet...right where the researcher predicted it would be...only to have that skull's age turn out to be less that the next skull found elsewhere by another researcher.

One skull might be the oldest found at the time it is found, only to be superseded in age ranking by an older one found later. Archaeological discovery tends to work that way; finding fossils the likes of which have not been found before, along with those the likes of which have.

Less to do with evolution, women used to be told to take hormone replacement at menopause but now research shows they probably should never do that unless...
Seems that until more recently, women were not used in research but many doctors chose a pill regimen to shut them up and make them docile.

Actually, some hormone therapy can combat osteoporosis and reduce the likelihood of some types of cancer. But wtf does this have to do with evolutionary theory? I don't think your sexism claim holds water.

It is good when peer review proves anything is a false or weak research, ID or whatever.
I hope it (peer review) keeps going strong but there are currents running against it.

Before ID research can be subjected to peer review, first some ID research has to be done. It isn't happening - and that's not the fault of peer reviewers. It's a result of the fact that ID is not science, and cannot produce empirically testable hypotheses. But scientific peer review in some form or other will remain. It filters out the stuff that's obviously crap to researchers in the various fields in which articles are written.

926 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:31:43am

re: #876 Wendya

Uh... the data actually shows increases in CO2 follows an increase in temperature.

CO2 isn't driving temperatures... it's the other way around.

Yes, that is the pattern we observe historically, contrary to the suggestions of Al Gore, of course. But it's irrelevant, except maybe to the case that Al Gore is an idiot. Global warming doesn't depend on an argument from precedent demonstrating CO2 as a natural driver of temperature variation. The correct argument is that the man made release of extra CO2 into the atmosphere is driving temperatures beyond what they would otherwise be today. And going back to the central point, given that CO2 traps heat, how could increasing the amount of it in the atmosphere beyond what would otherwise be the case not result in an increase in temperature beyond what would otherwise be the case? Outright global warming denialists have a bit of a logical problem there, it seems to me.

Unfortunately, it so happens that we have observed an increase in both CO2 level and global temperatures over the last 150 years roughly corresponding to our CO2 releasing activities. It could still be largely a big coincidence; we havent been closely observing and monitoring the planet's climate for very long at all; it seems possible to me that current models could be missing important features that would give much more modest predictions of temperature increase; there could be some natural trend underlying recent temperature changes that we are as yet unaware of that could be responsible for a large part of what we've observed. Whatever turns out to be the case, we will most likely have to adjust to the effects of it before we can fix it, so I don't support idiotic panic measures - shutting down half the economy, stopping wiping our arses etc and so on. But it's really not possible to make the case that global warming is simply erroneous; non-existent - or - alarmists notwithstanding - a hoax.

927 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:45:26am

A great article on Al Gore's misinterpretations of scientific data:

Al Gore is a Greenhouse Gasbag

928 viciouscircledammit  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:50:36am

re: #922 Salamantis

Science is not a popularity contest; it is a search for the facts of the matter. When the entire human populace believed in a flat earth circled by the sun, a spherical earth still revolved around it.

If students ask the question "is there empirical evidence of design?", the honest answer is a resounding NO. Not a single datum. Not one.

Scientists have been looking for empirical evidence of intelligent design for 150 years, and all the evidence they have found favors evolutionary theory. And they have found a lot.

I generally agree with you - I actually do believe in evolution to a large degree. I just think it comes up short on explaining the origins of life as well as other phenomena which are too numerous to list. My point is that science should never stop looking, until everything can be explained, and I think even hard-core evolutionists don't have the answers to everything.

I always get nervous when anyone says "the debate is over." This is what people such as the global warming crowd say.

929 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:04:32am

re: #920 viciouscircledammit

Something like 90% of people in America believe in God. Therefore, they believe in a Creator. Is it so preposterous to allow students to at least be able to ask the question of whether there is evidence of design? If they look and find nothing, then fine. That's science. But the feeling I get on this site is they're not allowed to look, which is fascism.

Bracing for the downdings. How dare I!

I take it you did not read the article in it's entirety or the thread.

re: #90 Sharmuta

one of the expert witnesses in the trial, biochemist Michael Behe, testified that no articles have been published in the scientific research literature that “provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred”—and he was testifying in defense of the school board’s policy.

I think this is a point that's forgotten by some of the Lizards who may not follow these threads as closely as others.

ID has nothing- nothing! Their own people admit this.

So to get back to your points:

First- even ID proponents like Dr. Behe admit, they have nothing. No one is stopping IDers from looking, but instead of discovering and offering up any evidence, they'd rather sneak ID into science classrooms instead through back doors like the law Jindal signed in Louisiana.

Second- no one is stopping children from asking about a Creator, however God would be super-natural and therefor fall outside the realm of science. Using the material to explain the natural world- THAT is science.

930 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:05:01am

re: #928 viciouscircledammit

Your rhetoric give you away.

931 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:08:08am

re: #928 viciouscircledammit

I generally agree with you - I actually do believe in evolution to a large degree. I just think it comes up short on explaining the origins of life as well as other phenomena which are too numerous to list. My point is that science should never stop looking, until everything can be explained, and I think even hard-core evolutionists don't have the answers to everything.

I always get nervous when anyone says "the debate is over." This is what people such as the global warming crowd say.

Who said the debate was over? We can debate all you want, as long as you provide scientific evidence to back up your claims. Instead, you insist on throwing red herrings like global warming.

932 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:09:00am

re: #928 viciouscircledammit

I generally agree with you - I actually do believe in evolution to a large degree. I just think it comes up short on explaining the origins of life as well as other phenomena which are too numerous to list. My point is that science should never stop looking, until everything can be explained, and I think even hard-core evolutionists don't have the answers to everything.

The theory of evolution makes no attempt to explain the origin of life, so no wonder it should 'come up short' in that regard. That is a separate discussion entirely. Evolutionary science hasn't stopped looking, and new discoveries continue to make new discoveries every year. We will NEVER have all the answers to everything. Science can only strive to get ever closer, just as religion would have us strive to get ever closer to perfection, but never acheive it.

933 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:17:39am

Ugh. Early morning post typos.
is: . . and new discoveries continue to make new discoveries every year
should be: . . .and continues to make new discoveries every year

934 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:19:07am

re: #932 Yashmak

Note the, "I believe in evolution BUT hard-core evolutionist blaw blaw blaw".

Why can't 'viciouscircledammit' just be honest? Instead we get the usual talking points where their rhetoric always gives them away.

935 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:29:11am

re: #920 viciouscircledammit

Something like 90% of people in America believe in God. Therefore, they believe in a Creator. Is it so preposterous to allow students to at least be able to ask the question of whether there is evidence of design? If they look and find nothing, then fine. That's science. But the feeling I get on this site is they're not allowed to look, which is fascism.

Bracing for the downdings. How dare I!

Do you know how many people believe in astrology/horoscopes? What science class would you like that stuff taught in? Or are you going to put your fascist jackboots on and say such things shouldn't be taught in science class at all? Are you so afraid of what Madam Zsa Zsa has to say that you are willing to just shut down all debate?/

936 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 8:49:25am

re: #934 Sharmuta

Note the, "I believe in evolution BUT hard-core evolutionist blaw blaw blaw".

Why can't 'viciouscircledammit' just be honest? Instead we get the usual talking points where their rhetoric always gives them away.

I noticed that too. . .but to be frank, I try not to speculate on the motivations or beliefs of the commenters I'm responding to. I find that when I do, I tend to be more likely to do the old straw-man. . .attack the commenter, not the comment. Instead, I simply assume (as much as human nature allows me to do so) that everyone is posting without a bias or agenda, and the everyone is interested honestly interested in considering different opinions and responses to their comments. I know that's not always the case. . .but on topics like this, pretending it is the case helps me keep on track and on topic, and helps prevent me from losing my temper :)

937 Yashmak  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 8:55:59am

re: #924 reine.de.tout


In my mind, it is an insult to God when we fail to use the intelligence He gave us, replacing it with a denial of all that he has provided us, including the complexities of how the world operates.

Regardless if one really believes in the existence of a supreme being, I think that's a pretty safe statement. . .I've always thought the same thing. Not using the intellect given to us is wasting a gift . . .no matter if that gift was given to us by random chance, or by a supreme being.

938 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:05:20am

Cool. It's alive, still.

Anyone have a question I can reply to (possibly answer? )

;)

939 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:15:46am

re: #928 viciouscircledammit

I generally agree with you - I actually do believe in evolution to a large degree.

Believe is not the same as understand.

I just think it comes up short on explaining the origins of life as well as other phenomena which are too numerous to list.

Who claimed that evolution was the answer to everything?

My point is that science should never stop looking, until everything can be explained,

...and you think that this is a point only you appreciate, and you would be able to know when the last question has been posed?

and I think even hard-core evolutionists don't have the answers to everything.

No kidding Sherlock.

I always get nervous when anyone says "the debate is over." This is what people such as the global warming crowd say.

Ah, so you are still open to the concept of GW, since you won't say that the debate is over?

940 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:36:30am

Sir David Attenborough presents the argument for AGW in a nutshell - The Truth About Climate Change

941 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:48:14am

When I watched "The Great Global Warming Swindle"on tv last year I was initially convinced. Already generally sceptical of AGW, I was especially impressed with the debunking of Gore's arguments for CO2 as the historical driver for climate change. But then I started reading about the misrepresentation of scientists views and the dishonest presentation of data in the programme. Never a good sign when people are willing to lie and trick to promote their point of view. It made me just as suspicious of the sceptics as I was about Gore and co, maybe more so.

Here's a studio debate from Australia's ABC channel about the programme - it looks like it might be interesting (haven't seen it yet). In nine parts, here's the first bit.

942 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:21:29am

re: #940 Jimmah

Sir David Attenborough presents the argument for AGW in a nutshell - The Truth About Climate Change

Great video. I put it on my youtube favorites. Good stuff. And I love Attenborough's voice.

943 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:41:49am

re: #942 Basho

My favourite narrator too (lifelong fan here). Btw that ABC Australia programme is very good. I'm going to put in in spinoffs. Bonus moment from
1:25 in part 8 - How not to establish your credibility in a debate :

"I studied physics and economics, astrophysics and classical music..."

He's doing well so far. What could possibly go wrong?

"...under Lyndon Larouche..."

Oh dear.

944 mean Gene  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:46:09am

re: #925 Salamantis

re: #918 mean Gene

Please name me a credible scientific journal that does not submit prospective articles to peer review. Mr. Secul's critique of the article you proffered is sufficient for me.
There was a Science article not too long ago where the publishers admitted that they had not bothered to peer review the ''research,'' with was global warming related and totally debunked within the first month the magazine made it public.
There were others.

But, when I was going to school, it wasn't ''creationism and ID" that were constantly being refuted by peer reviewers.
It was one evolution researcher after the next.

Please cite examples, with links.
OK, but remember the web-by thing wasn't in existence in the 1950's.
The tail thing was actually at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History until the theory about how dino tails are attached was corrected so that, in life, they didn't always have to stand on ledges.
They actually took it pretty well. With humor, even.
The thing I wrote about all of the skulls, if you were science-aware back then, it was all you heard. Some newsman (was it only Walter Cronkite?) would make the announcement that, according to the newly published work of so-and-so, we now knew the oldest human had lived in X. But soon afterward some other digger made the claim that this skull he had dug up in Y or Z or N was older still. It went on that way for years with school books being re-edited.


Once again, a link would be nice. Since the vertebrae are graduated according to size from larger near the butt to smaller near the tip, it is difficult to see how this could possibly be the case.

Difficult NOW! Think about the days when complete skeletons were extremely rare and researchers were basing putting what scraps they had together based on their flawed premises.

Actually, some hormone therapy can combat osteoporosis and reduce the likelihood of some types of cancer. But wtf does this have to do with evolutionary theory? I don't think your sexism claim holds water.
I was trying to point out that weak research was/is not limited to ID, evolution or Creation. I am a female and I fought doctors who wanted me to take hormones when it was considered almost mandatory. Not being a scientist myself I can only give you examples from things I actually saw, heard or experienced. Those doctors' office pamphlets were tough to go up against in days when doctors prefaced treating you with (this is the truth, too!) "If you were my wife, you would do X or Y..."


Before ID research can be subjected to peer review, first some ID research has to be done. It isn't happening - and that's not the fault of peer reviewers. It's a result of the fact that ID is not science, and cannot produce empirically testable hypotheses. But scientific peer review in some form or other will remain. It filters out the stuff that's obviously crap to researchers in the various fields in which articles are written.
That may be true. And that would certainly contribute to the weakness of PR-driven science. I think that where real lives are at stake, like hormone therapy and medications, peer reviews will continue. As for TV science by public announcement or proclamation,
it will always run behind in the peer review area.
So much science is politically driven (look at stem cell research, nicotine research in the 1950's and on, and much else) that it is political to choose to review or NOT to review it.
Letting your average mean Gene or Salamantis Google stuff is not really the same.

945 Wendya  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 12:06:51pm

So, knowing that CO2 doesn't cause an increase in temperatures based on all available actual records, vs models, you're still convinced that CO2 will cause an increase in temperatures?

Let's take this in a different direction as well. Sunspot activity correlates with temperature rise yet that is ignored in the narcissistic drive to attribute every single change in the universe to our individual actions. Do you really believe the emissions coming from our vehicles are more powerful than the sun?

946 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 12:32:54pm

CO2 is known to trap solar heat. If changes in the sun are contributing to rising temperatures, then adding more CO2 is only going to make it rise higher.

947 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:08:12pm

re: #945 Wendya

It doesn't generally initiate climate change in nature as the records show, however once it has been released into the atmosphere from the ocean as a result of temperature increase it causes further heating. We know that CO2 traps heat; this is something that can be confirmed very easily in the lab. That fact alone is all that is needed to establish the principle that increasing CO2 levels artificially today will cause an increase in temperature.

The AGW answer to that would be firstly to point out that no-one is saying that CO2 is a more powerful factor than the sun, it's that the sun has been ruled out in this case because solar output variations do not match with the temperature data of the last few decades. It's only when you include predictions about CO2 based warming that the model matches observed data. There is a lot more on this in the videos I linked above.

948 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:26:34pm

re: #946 Basho

CO2 is known to trap solar heat. If changes in the sun are contributing to rising temperatures, then adding more CO2 is only going to make it rise higher.

Still trying are you not ? Funny, but the climate change thing reminds me very much of the ID debate and is just as unwinnable. Start out you are convinced you are right, twist some facts to support your augment. Then put together a list of expert scientists that support you.
In the case of climate change it makes no difference that the scientist on your side studies insects, or is a weather man from channel 7. Harp on minor inconsistencies to support your argument like it was warmer for a few years in the US in the 30's while ignoring the world trend. If it snows early in Las Vegas one winter, climate change is bunk.
Like ID, you can never convince climate change skeptics. You can have NASA, the EPA, and the real climate experts on your side and they'll quote research done by a expert on toad reproduction to refute you. Neither a ID or climate change skeptic will ever change theire mind, no matter how many facts, studies or how much real research you link to.

The mental masturbation is fun, but in the end, neither side is going to get off.

949 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:29:51pm

re: #928 viciouscircledammit

I generally agree with you - I actually do believe in evolution to a large degree. I just think it comes up short on explaining the origins of life as well as other phenomena which are too numerous to list. My point is that science should never stop looking, until everything can be explained, and I think even hard-core evolutionists don't have the answers to everything.

I always get nervous when anyone says "the debate is over." This is what people such as the global warming crowd say.

Umm...evolutionary theory doesn't address the origins of life, but the orogins of species - how they evolutionarily diverged, via random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection - from a small set of already-present ancient ancestors. It is origins of life theory that addresses, well, origins of life.

Please, please try to list some of those other numerous phenomena which, according to you, evolutionary theory comes up short on explaining. Creationists and IDers haven't been able to list a single specific one. Oh yeah; it will NEVER be the case that everything is completely explained, even by such loathsome (apparently, to you) creatures as 'hard core evolutionists'; the universe is inexhaustible, and I cannot envision the entire cycle of each elementary particle in the Universe, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, ever being recorded somewhere - especially considering that it would have to be recorded by means of just such elementary particles.

And the oft-repeated attempt to slime evolutionary theory by falsely and gratuitously associating it with global warming is duly noted and rejected.

950 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:42:34pm

re: #948 avanti

Hahaha. Nicely put. Still, I like debating this kind of stuff. The members on this website are very reasonable for the most part. The worst that happens is that I get a down-ding. I've been on other websites where I'm called all matter of unflattering things for posting something that someone else doesn't agree with. LGF has the best political community and I won't melt down like the ID trolls around here.

951 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:49:22pm

re: #948 avanti

Still trying are you not ? Funny, but the climate change thing reminds me very much of the ID debate and is just as unwinnable. Start out you are convinced you are right, twist some facts to support your augment. Then put together a list of expert scientists that support you.

With the difference that there is no ID 'debate'; all of the credible expert scientists are on one side, and it isn't ID's.

In the case of climate change it makes no difference that the scientist on your side studies insects, or is a weather man from channel 7. Harp on minor inconsistencies to support your argument like it was warmer for a few years in the US in the 30's while ignoring the world trend. If it snows early in Las Vegas one winter, climate change is bunk.

Or even the founder of the Weather Channel, or the former go-to guy for yearly hurricane predictions? Try pooh-poohing their credentials. Oh, that's right; the least qualified among the global warming nay-sayers are falsely held out as the most qualified among them, so they can be both ridiculed and unfairly held out as representative of the whole. That's the way the propaganda slime game is played.

Like ID, you can never convince climate change skeptics. You can have NASA, the EPA, and the real climate experts on your side and they'll quote research done by a expert on toad reproduction to refute you. Neither a ID or climate change skeptic will ever change theire mind, no matter how many facts, studies or how much real research you link to.

It gets kind of embarrassing for devout global warmers when you mention how subsequent empirical investigations have turned up vast misstatements and inaccuracies in their pious gospel, though, made by just such people whom they are holding out as priests and paragons of scientific rectitude - such things as the Hurricane Frequency Spike and the Hockey Stick and the Warmest Years of the Century come to mind...

The mental masturbation is fun, but in the end, neither side is going to get off.

At least both sides are involved in actual science, although some of it is very bad science. The IDers have no actual science at all.

952 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:51:41pm

re: #950 Basho

Hahaha. Nicely put. Still, I like debating this kind of stuff. The members on this website are very reasonable for the most part. The worst that happens is that I get a down-ding. I've been on other websites where I'm called all matter of unflattering things for posting something that someone else doesn't agree with. LGF has the best political community and I won't melt down like the ID trolls around here.

Well, I was at a minus 50 Karma, but worked myself up a bit by agreeing with a post or two. When I tried having this kind of conversation on other sites to the right of me I was banned after a few posts that went against the flow.
Of course, I was not welcome on a few left sites to for trying to calm down the moon bats among the lefties.
Charles seems to let opinions flow back and forth unless you are a disruption.

953 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 1:58:30pm

re: #951 Salamantis

At least both sides are involved in actual science, although some of it is very bad science. The IDers have no actual science at all.

You made my point, the founder of the Weather Channel is your expert ? He was a friggin TV weatherman.

"Coleman started his career at WCIA (TV) in Champaign, Illinois, doing the early evening weathercast and a local bandstand show called At The Hop while he was a student at University of Illinois. After receiving his degree in 1957, he became the weather anchor for WCIA's sister station WMBD-TV in Peoria, Illinois. Coleman was also a weather anchor for KETV in Omaha, WISN-TV in Milwaukee and then WBBM-TV and WLS-TV in Chicago.[1]"

954 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 2:20:25pm

re: #944 mean Gene

There was a Science article not too long ago where the publishers admitted that they had not bothered to peer review the ''research,'' with was global warming related and totally debunked within the first month the magazine made it public.
There were others.

Linkies, please?

OK, but remember the web-by thing wasn't in existence in the 1950's.
The tail thing was actually at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History until the theory about how dino tails are attached was corrected so that, in life, they didn't always have to stand on ledges.
They actually took it pretty well. With humor, even.

I can find no google evidence of it, so it must have been some time ago. If there was indeed an error made by paleontologists there concerning how a dino tail connects, apparently they also corrected it.

The thing I wrote about all of the skulls, if you were science-aware back then, it was all you heard. Some newsman (was it only Walter Cronkite?) would make the announcement that, according to the newly published work of so-and-so, we now knew the oldest human had lived in X. But soon afterward some other digger made the claim that this skull he had dug up in Y or Z or N was older still. It went on that way for years with school books being re-edited.

As I wrote before; new fossils - some of them older specimens of early hominids than those unearthed before -are periodically found.

Difficult NOW! Think about the days when complete skeletons were extremely rare and researchers were basing putting what scraps they had together based on their flawed premises.

There are many essentially complete dino skeletons around these days, though.

I was trying to point out that weak research was/is not limited to ID, evolution or Creation.

Please show me some of this weak evolution research of which you speak - as well as ANY empirical research dealing with creationism or ID.

I am a female and I fought doctors who wanted me to take hormones when it was considered almost mandatory. Not being a scientist myself I can only give you examples from things I actually saw, heard or experienced. Those doctors' office pamphlets were tough to go up against in days when doctors prefaced treating you with (this is the truth, too!) "If you were my wife, you would do X or Y..."

I don't like the whole pharmaceutical industry kickback scheme to prescribing doctors. It comprises a conflict of interest, in my view, giving the doctor a financial stake in prescribing medically unnecessary drugs.

That may be true. And that would certainly contribute to the weakness of PR-driven science. I think that where real lives are at stake, like hormone therapy and medications, peer reviews will continue. As for TV science by public announcement or proclamation,
it will always run behind in the peer review area.
So much science is politically driven (look at stem cell research, nicotine research in the 1950's and on, and much else) that it is political to choose to review or NOT to review it.
Letting your average mean Gene or Salamantis Google stuff is not really the same.

Peer-reviewed science has to be stronger than the alternative; to not have scientific peers check each others' work at all prior to publication.

One of the most seamy political drivings I see these days are the relentless political attempts to insert unscientific religious dogma into public high school science classes.

955 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 2:23:33pm

re: #953 avanti

You made my point, the founder of the Weather Channel is your expert ? He was a friggin TV weatherman.

"Coleman started his career at WCIA (TV) in Champaign, Illinois, doing the early evening weathercast and a local bandstand show called At The Hop while he was a student at University of Illinois. After receiving his degree in 1957, he became the weather anchor for WCIA's sister station WMBD-TV in Peoria, Illinois. Coleman was also a weather anchor for KETV in Omaha, WISN-TV in Milwaukee and then WBBM-TV and WLS-TV in Chicago.[1]"

With a degree in meteorology; right? Which has to be relevant.

As to ascertaining his 'friggin', we'd have to interview his significant other, if he has one.

956 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 2:40:14pm

re: #955 Salamantis

With a degree in meteorology; right? Which has to be relevant.

As to ascertaining his 'friggin', we'd have to interview his significant other, if he has one.

You are correct about the degree, from 1953 and he was doing TV weather in his freshman year. Even if his degree was not from 50 year year old science this is telling:

"Coleman, a meteorologist, has been rebuked by his parent association, the American Meteorological Association, as well as his “baby,” The Weather Channel. "

957 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 2:47:06pm

re: #956 avanti

You are correct about the degree, from 1953 and he was doing TV weather in his freshman year. Even if his degree was not from 50 year year old science this is telling:

"Coleman, a meteorologist, has been rebuked by his parent association, the American Meteorological Association, as well as his “baby,” The Weather Channel. "

And of course you've thoroughly discredited all of the people listed in post #869? They're all charlatans and frauds who have no credible credentials or valid scientific contributions and who haven't done jack shit in the field with their lives and careers; right?

But I'll bet they'd be wearing brighter halos than Obama if they agreed with you...

958 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 2:52:29pm

Speaking of which: Why has James Hanson of NASA, one of the stars you claim, clammed up about the big mistake he made concerning the warmest years of the century - a mistake uncovered by Steve McIntyre? And why won't he release his calculation algorithms?

Real shining, sterling 'expert' behavior, that...

959 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:07:18pm

re: #958 Salamantis

Speaking of which: Why has James Hanson of NASA, one of the stars you claim, clammed up about the big mistake he made concerning the warmest years of the century - a mistake uncovered by Steve McIntyre? And why won't he release his calculation algorithms?

Real shining, sterling 'expert' behavior, that...

The big mistake you site was .15 C, story here.

Hansen

960 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:14:57pm

re: #957 Salamantis

And of course you've thoroughly discredited all of the people listed in post #869? They're all charlatans and frauds who have no credible credentials or valid scientific contributions and who haven't done jack shit in the field with their lives and careers; right?

But I'll bet they'd be wearing brighter halos than Obama if they agreed with you...

Ask yourself simple question, if I were using your mostly discredited experts to support my argument, and you were using mine, would you not be slamming "my" list ?
As I said about ID, it's faith that they are right driving the skeptics, mostly fueled by the fact that until recently, no one on the right supported climate change. Now that more and more conservitives I coming aound, it will change.
Then the right has a duty to keep the left in line while adressing the issue.

961 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:20:32pm

re: #959 avanti

The big mistake you site was .15 C, story here.

Hansen

It was big enough to show that 5 of the 10 hottest years in the past century happened in the '20's and '30's.

962 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:21:32pm

re: #953 avanti

You made my point, the founder of the Weather Channel is your expert ? He was a friggin TV weatherman.

"Coleman started his career at WCIA (TV) in Champaign, Illinois, doing the early evening weathercast and a local bandstand show called At The Hop while he was a student at University of Illinois. After receiving his degree in 1957, he became the weather anchor for WCIA's sister station WMBD-TV in Peoria, Illinois. Coleman was also a weather anchor for KETV in Omaha, WISN-TV in Milwaukee and then WBBM-TV and WLS-TV in Chicago.[1]"

So weathermen aren't qualified to form opinions on climate change? Are you freakin' kidding me? Their entire career is assessing the climate! That's what they're freakin' payed to do!

So, let me get this straight -- Al Gore doesn't have anything within a 200 mile radius of a science degree, let alone any experience observing climate data and assessing it, and you choose to go after a weatherman who (a) has a science degree and (b) whose job revolves around analyzing climatary data? You've got to be joking.

963 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:21:58pm

re: #960 avanti

Ask yourself simple question, if I were using your mostly discredited experts to support my argument, and you were using mine, would you not be slamming "my" list ?
As I said about ID, it's faith that they are right driving the skeptics, mostly fueled by the fact that until recently, no one on the right supported climate change. Now that more and more conservitives I coming aound, it will change.
Then the right has a duty to keep the left in line while adressing the issue.

It is faith that they are right that is driving the advocates, too; the empirical evidence is inconclusive, and lends support to both sides.

964 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:23:49pm

re: #946 Basho

CO2 is known to trap solar heat. If changes in the sun are contributing to rising temperatures, then adding more CO2 is only going to make it rise higher.

But there is no scientific proof -- NONE -- that CO2 is in fact responsible for rising temperatures on earth.

There are, however, a buttload of scientists with years of experience who have gone on the record to say that there is no way CO2 is responsible for climate change on Earth.

965 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:31:26pm

re: #962 gclaghorn

So weathermen aren't qualified to form opinions on climate change? Are you freakin' kidding me? Their entire career is assessing the climate! That's what they're freakin' payed to do!

So, let me get this straight -- Al Gore doesn't have anything within a 200 mile radius of a science degree, let alone any experience observing climate data and assessing it, and you choose to go after a weatherman who (a) has a science degree and (b) whose job revolves around analyzing climatary data? You've got to be joking.

Not to mention that a British judge found Al Gore's film to be littered with errors and untruths - nine major ones. And he didn't even catch them all:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

966 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:33:45pm

re: #962 gclaghorn

So weathermen aren't qualified to form opinions on climate change? Are you freakin' kidding me? Their entire career is assessing the climate! That's what they're freakin' payed to do!

So, let me get this straight -- Al Gore doesn't have anything within a 200 mile radius of a science degree, let alone any experience observing climate data and assessing it, and you choose to go after a weatherman who (a) has a science degree and (b) whose job revolves around analyzing climatary data? You've got to be joking.

What a waste of time this is. Weathermen are not climatologists, especially when they were trained in the 50's. Not defending Gore, but he.s doing little different than I am, reading the research and talking about it. If the weatherman mentioned had recent schooling and was not decredited by is his own peer group, he'd be less suspect.

967 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:35:38pm

re: #966 avanti

What a waste of time this is. Weathermen are not climatologists, especially when they were trained in the 50's.

Oh, so people like Al Gore ARE climatologists? WTF is up with that logic?

968 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:37:46pm

re: #956 avanti

You are correct about the degree, from 1953 and he was doing TV weather in his freshman year. Even if his degree was not from 50 year year old science this is telling:

"Coleman, a meteorologist, has been rebuked by his parent association, the American Meteorological Association, as well as his “baby,” The Weather Channel. "

Got a link?

969 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:46:12pm

re: #968 gclaghorn

link

970 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:49:26pm

OK, leaving this thread I'm getting dinged down like mad for just discussing the issue. No room for other opinions on this subject on here.

971 gclaghorn  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:53:23pm

re: #969 avanti

link

Oh, wow. I don't suppose you could've found a more factual source than Wikipedia.

/

By the way, in what sense is the founder of the Weather Channel, the most trusted name in around-the-clock weather forecasts, NOT qualified to form opinions on global warming?

972 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 3:55:52pm

re: #969 avanti

link

And here's what Coleman has to say about global warming:

[Link: www.kusi.com...]

973 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 4:03:25pm

Salamantis no reflection on you, but getting bad Karma dings for what I feel was just a polite debate sucks. I don't think you were doing the dinging, but I don't want to piss off the group. Thanks for the challenge, it has been fun.

974 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:07:58pm

re: #971 gclaghorn


By the way, in what sense is the founder of the Weather Channel, the most trusted name in around-the-clock weather forecasts, NOT qualified to form opinions on global warming?

In what sense is a guy who founded a TV station not qualified to talk about a complicated scientific issue? Really?

975 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:15:06pm

re: #964 gclaghorn

But there is no scientific proof -- NONE -- that CO2 is in fact responsible for rising temperatures on earth.

I suspect you know better than that, so I'll call it the way I see it: You're lying.


There are, however, a buttload of scientists with years of experience who have gone on the record to say that there is no way CO2 is responsible for climate change on Earth.

Most of the scientist that I've heard who have gone on record to claim AGW is bunk don't have credentials related to talk about climate. Kind of like the mathematicians who say there is something to ID.

re: #962 gclaghorn

So weathermen aren't qualified to form opinions on climate change? Are you freakin' kidding me? Their entire career is assessing the climate! That's what they're freakin' payed to do!

There is a difference between climate and weather. If you don't know it than you really shouldn't have an opinion on the subject.

976 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:28:48pm

re: #955 Salamantis

With a degree in meteorology; right? Which has to be relevant.

Gah... first time I down-dinged you. You should know better than that ;) No hard feelings.

977 Basho  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:33:03pm

re: #952 avanti

Hmm... well, you're over -15 now. Soon you'll be back to the positive side! ;P

978 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 6:47:44pm

So much for consensus...

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

979 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:02:17pm

This will keep you two going

Obama pick

980 avanti  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 7:05:58pm

re: #977 Basho

Hmm... well, you're over -15 now. Soon you'll be back to the positive side! ;P

I up dinged both of you for dedication.

981 srmoss  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 8:45:13pm

Dobzhansky: "The process of mutation is the only known source of the raw materials of genetic variability, and hence of evolution.. The mutants which arise are, with rare exceptions, deleterious to their carriers, at least in the environments which the species normally encounters."

...meaning evolution produces an ever increasingly inferior product and also meaning that a great amount of cognitive dissonance is required to accept evolutionary theory as fact.

982 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 8:45:55pm

More blasphemous, heretical, apostate doubt to trouble the pious and devout True Believers:

Climate Sensitivity Reconsidered

[Link: www.aps.org...]

Fallacies About Global Warming

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

Greenhouse Warming? What Greenhouse Warming?

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

Hockey Stick? What Hockey Stick?

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

"Global Warming" Has Stopped

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

A Glimpse Inside the Global Warming Controversy

[Link: scienceandpublicpolicy.org...]

Hey, Nobel Prize Winners, Answer Me This

[Link: icecap.us...]

983 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 8:47:23pm

re: #981 srmoss

Dobzhansky: "The process of mutation is the only known source of the raw materials of genetic variability, and hence of evolution.. The mutants which arise are, with rare exceptions, deleterious to their carriers, at least in the environments which the species normally encounters."

...meaning evolution produces an ever increasingly inferior product and also meaning that a great amount of cognitive dissonance is required to accept evolutionary theory as fact.

Nope. It means that evolution is powered by the repeated environmental selection of those rare exceptions.

984 srmoss  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 8:57:09pm

Sal:

Dobzhansky claims that evolution is the operation of natural selection in conjunction with mutation. That doesn't provide much of an argument when mutations always produce an inferior result and natural selection can only choose from the best of the worst.

985 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:34:58pm

re: #951 Salamantis

At least both sides are involved in actual science, although some of it is very bad science. The IDers have no actual science at all.

I agree with you on that point Sal.

I hope the temperature record of the last 30 years is just a blip, and the contribution of AGW really is insignificant, not least of all because I'm really not a fan of having hippies with anti-science issues (and displaced, unacknowledged religious convictions) breathing down my neck and trying to tell me how to live. But I have to say I'm seeing that many of the worst offenders have been on the denialists side lately. So many long refuted talking points, distortions and bogus arguments - it does remind me of the ID crowd in many ways.

986 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:36:41pm

re: #984 srmoss

Speak of the devil...

987 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 9:46:08pm

re: #984 srmoss

That doesn't provide much of an argument when mutations always produce an inferior result and natural selection can only choose from the best of the worst.

Dobzhansky: "The mutants which arise are, with rare exceptions, deleterious to their carriers,"

Sal then said : "It means that evolution is powered by the repeated environmental selection of those rare exceptions."

If you can only keep your argument going by failing to acknowledge the words put before you, then there's something wrong with your argument.

988 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 10:19:32pm

re: #984 srmoss

Sal:

Dobzhansky claims that evolution is the operation of natural selection in conjunction with mutation. That doesn't provide much of an argument when mutations always produce an inferior result and natural selection can only choose from the best of the worst.

Mutation does NOT always produce an inferior result. If it did, no mutation would ever be naturally selected. But mutations have been naturally selected from the time more than 3 billion years ago that life was comprised of single-celled organisms. And we commonly do cross-species artifactual retroviral DNA comparisons to ascertain not only common ancestry between different species, but also how long ago they evolutionarily diverged.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

excerpt:

"Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated."

Sorry, but reality - in the form of repeatable-at-will empirical facts - wreaks devastating havoc upon your massive misconceptions.

989 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 10:37:44pm

re: #988 Salamantis

How in hell do these beneficial mutation deniers explain the ability of viruses like flu and the common cold to change into new strains? They must think God is magicking them up and releasing them into the world on an ongoing basis. Do these people really want to believe in a bio-terrorist God?

990 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 10:38:53pm

re: #979 avanti

This will keep you two going

Obama pick

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

991 srmoss  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 10:51:07pm

Dobzhansky's and millions of other empirical studies on fruit flies have proved otherwise. Mutations, induced chemically and radioactively produced inferior fruit flies. Period. And when mutated fruit flies are allowed to breed (if they can) they eventually revert back to normal fruit flies. If mutation is a valid mechanism and an accurate component of evolution, it should be able to be proved experimentally. If it can't then your so called facts are only theory.

992 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:14:24pm

re: #991 srmoss

Do yourself and everyone else a favour by reading and, if it's not too much trouble, actually comprehending this.

993 srmoss  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:15:05pm

re: #989 Jimmah

I'm a "beneficial mutation denier"
but I can change
if I have to
...I guess.
(based on the Red Green man's prayer)

994 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:16:45pm

re: #991 srmoss

Dobzhansky's and millions of other empirical studies on fruit flies have proved otherwise. Mutations, induced chemically and radioactively produced inferior fruit flies. Period. And when mutated fruit flies are allowed to breed (if they can) they eventually revert back to normal fruit flies. If mutation is a valid mechanism and an accurate component of evolution, it should be able to be proved experimentally. If it can't then your so called facts are only theory.

Lenski's spontaneously mutating e. coli developed the ability to metabolize citric acid - something that e. coli had never before been able to do - without losing a single other ability they had previously possessed. Adding an ability without subtracting any abilities has to count as an improvement. And since Lenski periodically saved populations of his spontaneously mutating e. coli (as well as batches from the eleven other flasks, cultured from a single cource population, in which the spontaneous mutation has not appeared), including populations from before the mutation happened, he can unfreeze them at will, and the mutation will reappear in them (but not in batches from the other eleven flasks).

Those are empirically observable facts, repeatable at will under controlled laboratory conditions. Theories may be drawn from them, but what happened with these particular e. coli is the very definition of a fact.

995 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:18:56pm

re: #993 srmoss

I'm a "beneficial mutation denier"
but I can change
if I have to
...I guess.
(based on the Red Green man's prayer)

Well, if you are willing to accept facts, you have to:

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

996 srmoss  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:21:18pm

re: #992 Jimmah

If you believe the article provides some useful information, then fine but you don't have to be condescending about it.

997 Aye Pod  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:27:31pm

re: #996 srmoss

Fair enough, that was perhaps unnecessary. You must understand though that it does get tiresome after a while responding to folks like yourself who come here loaded up with talking points that even the briefest and laziest of google searches can demolish.

998 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:39:39pm

The Illogic of a Creationist Argument
by Ian Johnston
[Link: greensboring.com...]

There's a common argument which has been going around for years advocating that we should be teaching Creation Science in our schools. The proponents of this view insist that the Genesis account of the creation of the world and the species in it should receive equal time in our science classes with Darwin. To this end, various spokesmen tour the province and fill cyberspace with aggressive arguments seeking to persuade us of the logic of their case. Now, I haven't read all the arguments, but I have consulted enough of them to recognize the structure of what seems to be the commonest way these people try to persuade us. It is entirely illogical from beginning to end, so much so, in fact, that it makes a particularly useful case study in many of the basic errors of reason.

Briefly put, the argument goes something like this: everyone agrees that either Darwin's account of evolution or the Genesis account of creation is correct; however, there are some serious problems, inconsistencies, errors in Darwin's account; therefore, evolution is incorrect, and the Genesis account is correct. Thus, we must give it at least equal time in our science curriculum.

The first obvious error, of course, is the way the argument is set up. There are scores of accounts of creation, for virtually every culture has its own. Thus, the original premise is a False Dilemma, and the "disproof" of Darwin, even if valid, does not specially privilege the Genesis account. If the point is to list all the alternatives and then to eliminate all contenders but the Genesis account, these arguers need to get to work on more than just Darwin. There are many other competing accounts on the table.

Then, of course, there is the endemic confusion over the meaning of the term evolution. Darwin did not invent the concept (it was around well before his day), and its truth does not depend upon anything Darwin wrote. The proof of Evolution in its most general sense, that is, the development of species from species unlike themselves over time, rests on three clear facts. First, there is variety in the natural world (that is self-evident). Second, all living individuals must have come from a living parent (no one has ever been able to prove the contrary). And third, simple species were around long before more complex species (any inspection of fossilized sedimentary strata confirms this point). The conclusion to this argument is unavoidable: the complex species must have come from the simpler species.

Darwin's theory of Natural Selection is not concerned with this proof. He is providing an explanation of how evolution might take place. Hence, attacking Darwin directly does no particular harm to the case for evolution (which would be just as valid if no one had ever heard of Darwin), and so one wonders why Creation Scientists spend so much time on that rather than on stating which of the three facts upon which the proof of evolution rests is incorrect. One suspects they do not do that because they have no way at all of refuting any of the three key points above. However, if the truth of evolution is something they wish to challenge, all that attention to Darwin's theory is something of a red herring. Until they attack the claims upon which the case for evolution rests, their argument against it is pointless.

To be continued...

999 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 19, 2008 11:40:21pm

Continued...

Calling attention to certain difficulties with Darwin's theory is easy to do, of course, because there are a number of interesting problems with it. But it is quite erroneous to suppose that these problems therefore mean that Darwinism has no scientific credibility. Scientists themselves constantly argue about the various parts of the theory, adjust it, refine it, come up with competing versions of it, and so forth. In fact, that is one of the most interesting areas of modern biology. The idea that a single problem or series of anomalies disqualifies a scientific theory indicates that those making such a claim have little idea what science, in fact, is or how it is carried out. A theory in which there are no such problem areas is generally of very little interest to scientists. Newtonian mechanics has serious problems, too. Does this mean we throw out the notion of gravity?

Misrepresenting or failing to understand the nature of science (deliberately or not) is central to an allied argument that often crops up with the above case, namely, a definition of science which claims that what cannot be observed cannot be scientific. Since evolution cannot be observed because the time spans are too long, therefore it cannot be scientific. This, of course, is the old logical trick of setting up a self-serving definition. Scientific theories deal all the time with things we cannot observe, like, gravity, electrons, electric fields, viruses, and so on. On the basis of these theories predictions are made which lead to observable results which will enable the theories to be confirmed or falsified. In this sense, evolution is thoroughly scientific. It leads to predictions which can be checked against the fossil record. A single finding, well confirmed, could destroy the case for evolution (e.g., a vertebrate skeleton in the pre-Cambrian rocks). That has never happened in the thousands of inspections which occur.

This point illustrates the key objection scientists have to the Creationist account, namely that it generates only one prediction, and that has been consistently falsified and never confirmed, namely that if all the species were created at once then we should find their fossil remain all together in every fossilized strata. Nowhere in the world has this ever occurred. Hence the explanatory predicting power of the Genesis account is empty and without scientific interest.

None of this presupposes that there might not be great value in believing in Genesis. All it shows is that the case for considering the Genesis account scientific is non-existent. Hence, it has no place in our science classes. Whether or not it should be taught in schools for its literary or religious or cultural value is another question. Curiously enough, that case is never made in the current debates.

1000 Claire  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 12:54:44am

re: #991 srmoss

You can hit a fruit fly with radiation and look for visual signs of DNA disruptions and conclude that every one is obviously detrimental when the oddballs you see are missing their heads or have a leg sprouting out of a stomach, etc. But not all evolution is from radiation induced mutations. A lot of it comes from the variations we all carry in our genes when we reproduce and from copying errors that occur. It is like when animals are bred for certain characteristics like bigger size. You take the biggest calf of the family and breed him and take the biggest of his progeny and breed only it, and sooner or later you end up with huge cows. Except it's nature that does the "breeding." There's genetic variation from animal to animal and nature can select for certain beneficial characteristics, like beak size in a Finch population that matches the size of nuts available over time. If we didn't have this variation, we'd all look alike, be the exact same size, all have the same intelligence, etc. And most likely, we wouldn't be here, because just like the Finch beaks that HAVE to drift toward different sizes to accomodate seed sources that are cyclical, if animals didn't have the ability to adapt to changing environments they'd all have died out long ago. (And one thing we know about the Earth is that it is NOT a static unchanging place. Continents drift, climate changes, plants/food sources evolve, viruses evolve, predators that want to eat you evolve, etc. and most species have had to evolve also or die out, and millions of species couldn't cope fast enough and HAVE died out over the millenia, many times more than are alive now.)

So in a jar of fruit flies, you can see bad mutations, but if the flies are getting all they need to eat every day and they don't have to compete for resources, how do you know that every mutation is bad? How do you know a "genius" fly for example, wasn't born if he has not reason to exercise his mental capabilites finding food when it's not hard to find? How do you know one of 10,000,000 flies wouldn't win a speed race with the other 9,999,999 flies because he has a mutation in wing muscles? You wouldn't in a jar, you would in nature. There could be some that are good, but would only help the animal survive preferentially in a stressful situation, which a jar full of food is not. So if you take a population of fruit flies (or e-coli, or viruses, or bacteria, or even Finches in the Galapagos, etc) and you stress them or watch nature stress them and challenge them to survive, you WILL see mutations and/or drift that allow some of the population to cope with the stressors and reproduce preferentially and pass on their genes to their young. You could do this, too, to populations of polar bears instead of e-coli in a lab, you could change their food, change their climate, hit them with predators that want to eat their young, the only problem with that would be getting 1000's of generations of Polar Bears born in your lab before the semester is up. (So you use life that can reproduce fast enough and you watch it.)

Yes, it HAS been proven experimentally. It happens. Life adapts. We can watch it in the lab, we can watch it in the field. (Finches, lizards on isolated islands, cyclid fishes, e-coli, bacteria, viruses, etc, etc, etc.) which is actually pretty impressive considering that for all of evolution to have happened from day one to today for all species, you'd only have to have something like a 1% change in body shape or size averaging once every 10,000 generations to get from single cell to fish to mammal to us.

1001 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 1:09:40am

Sal:

"simple species were around long before more complex species (any inspection of fossilized sedimentary strata confirms this point). The conclusion to this argument is unavoidable: the complex species must have come from the simpler species."

If this were true, then certain insects found in fossils that are nearly identical to those of today didn't get the memo that they were supposed to evolve into something else.

1002 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 1:56:44am

re: #1001 srmoss

Sal:

"simple species were around long before more complex species (any inspection of fossilized sedimentary strata confirms this point). The conclusion to this argument is unavoidable: the complex species must have come from the simpler species."

If this were true, then certain insects found in fossils that are nearly identical to those of today didn't get the memo that they were supposed to evolve into something else.

Species can diverge with one branch keeping its same configuration while other branches assume different configurations. Evolutionary divergence usually happens when populations of the same species are geographically separated so that they cannot interbreed; that's when the different random mutations, acted upon by different environmental stressors, result in formerly genetically identical populations to progressively genetically drift father and farther apart, until first they can only produce sterile offspring between them, like lions and tigers or horses and donkeys do when they interbreed, then later on they cannot produce offspring at all.

Also remember that physical configuration does not always illustrate genetic variation; some species can look quite similar and yet be different.

Then there is the fact that different species evolutionarily change at different rates, due to more, or less, environmental stressors selecting for change. A species well-suited to its ecological niche will select to stay as it is.

Finally, let me turn your example back around on you. How come we don't find insects from a billion years ago, or fish, or birds, or reptiles, or mammals? There certainly was life back that far; in fact, there has been life on this planet for 3 1/2 billion years. But, as the article pointed out, only simpler forms are found in lower, older strata, while both simple and more compex forms are found in the newer stuff on top. If all species had been independently created as is at the same time, why the hell would that happen, instead of finding all different kinds and complexities of life at every geological stratum level where we find ANY of it, as Genesis Literalist creationism would demand? Answer: it wouldn't happen. But it does. Every fucking where we look.

1003 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 2:23:59am

re: #1000 Claire

Yes, it HAS been proven experimentally. It happens. Life adapts. We can watch it in the lab, we can watch it in the field. (Finches, lizards on isolated islands, cyclid fishes, e-coli, bacteria, viruses, etc, etc, etc.) which is actually pretty impressive considering that for all of evolution to have happened from day one to today for all species, you'd only have to have something like a 1% change in body shape or size averaging once every 10,000 generations to get from single cell to fish to mammal to us.

Your assumption that "you'd only have to have something like a 1% change in body shape or size averaging once every 10,000 generations to get from single cell to fish to mammal to us" assumes that major changes (new and functional body parts) are the same as minor changes (beak sizes, fruit fly speed, etc). If that's not a huge extrapolation for you, then so be it.

1004 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 2:24:07am

I've decided to really press this issue on you with artifactual retroviral DNA sequences. Do you know what they are? They are sequences from retroviruses, that is, outside infections, like when you catch a cold, that spliced themselves into their host genomes. We have thousands of them; every animal does.

Now, we have a genome comprised of three billlion base pairs. And humans and great apes share thousands of identical artifactual retroviral sequences, demonstrating the identical degree of genetic degradation, and spliced into identical locations in our respective genomes. For this to have happened without us having evolved from a common ancestor, it would have to be the case that thousands of different times, at the same time each time, humans and great apes came down with the same infections, and they just happened to splice themselves into identical locations in genomes of vast length - at a period, 7+ million years ago, from which we have not been able to find either a human or a great ape fossil. Not a single one. And it would also have to be the case that the newer artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, 6 million years old or newer, measuring by their degree of genetic degradation, would have to include different ones for great apes and humans, spliced into different genomic locations. In other words, for all of these millions of years, we would have had to catch all of the same bugs at the same time, without exception, and then failed to catch the overwhelming majority of the same bugs at the same time for millions of years following, up until the present day. The statistical probabilities of this being the case in the absence of humans and great apes diverging from common ancestors are vanishingly less than the chances of your winning every lotto and slot machine jackpot in the world for your entire life, only playing single tickets or coins in each one.

But it gets even worse - far worse. We can follow the same pattern in artifactual retroviral DNA sequnces between dogs and foxes, between housecats and cheetahs, between zebras and antelopes, between mice and rabbits, and indeed, between any two animals you choose. So multiply those odds by countless billions yet again.

The only way that the artifactual retroviral DNA evidence - which can be checked and rechecked at will, simply by checking the sequenced genomes of various animals - can make any sense whatsoever is if all of them share common ancestors from which they evolutionarily diverged at various times. That's the ONLY way it makes sense. There is no other rational, reasonable explanation. Period.

1005 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 2:34:24am

re: #1003 srmoss

Your assumption that "you'd only have to have something like a 1% change in body shape or size averaging once every 10,000 generations to get from single cell to fish to mammal to us" assumes that major changes (new and functional body parts) are the same as minor changes (beak sizes, fruit fly speed, etc). If that's not a huge extrapolation for you, then so be it.

Do you realize how long 3 1/2 billion years is? It's 1.75 million times the period of time between Jesus and now. Plenty of time for mutations to aggregate and speciate, and for evolutionary divergence to result in the amazing panoply of terrestrial species we see today. And the distinction between major and minor changes is fuzzy, and comprised of nothing more than the continual accumulation of smaller changes.

We can even see similarities between animals and plants. Animals have mitochondria in every cell; they process the nutrients from the food we eat and the water we drink and produce the energy we use to move. Plants have chloroplasts; they photosynthesize sunlight and water into sugar, so plants can grow (notice that both plants and animals also have cells with nuclei, in which their DNA resides). But they have a common source, back in our ancient shared past, when the common ancestors of plants and animals got infected by other organisms that became symbiotic with their hosts, rather than attacking or parasitizing them. Then, when animals and plants split, these symbiotes evolved in different directions, and perform different services for different kinds of organisms. And both chloroplasts and mitochondria contain their own, different, DNA.

1006 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 2:55:47am

re: #984 srmoss

Sal:

Dobzhansky claims that evolution is the operation of natural selection in conjunction with mutation. That doesn't provide much of an argument when mutations always produce an inferior result and natural selection can only choose from the best of the worst.

Mutation doesn't always produce an inferior result and so your argument falls.

1007 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:10:40am

re: #997 Jimmah

Fair enough, that was perhaps unnecessary. You must understand though that it does get tiresome after a while responding to folks like yourself who come here loaded up with talking points that even the briefest and laziest of google searches can demolish.

Yes, that gets to the heart of it. This is supposed to be a fact checking website.

But I hadn't seen his points before so its good that they get an airing.

Though we have heard the fruit flies are still fruit flies argument before.

1008 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:25:28am

re: #1001 srmoss

Sal:

"simple species were around long before more complex species (any inspection of fossilized sedimentary strata confirms this point). The conclusion to this argument is unavoidable: the complex species must have come from the simpler species."

If this were true, then certain insects found in fossils that are nearly identical to those of today didn't get the memo that they were supposed to evolve into something else.

Can you name the species of your example insects, do you have a link to a paper that compares the anatomical features of the ancient specimens with the anatomical features of the modern specimens?

Where were the papers published, by who?

Were not talking about ancient fishing lures are we?

1009 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:46:35am

re: #1003 srmoss

Your assumption that "you'd only have to have something like a 1% change in body shape or size averaging once every 10,000 generations to get from single cell to fish to mammal to us" assumes that major changes (new and functional body parts) are the same as minor changes (beak sizes, fruit fly speed, etc). If that's not a huge extrapolation for you, then so be it.

Try googling for "hox genes arthropod body segments evolution" maybe throw Ultrabithorax into the mix.

Most of the hits I got were pretty technical but I got this which gives an idea of the argument.

But the gist of the argument is that hox gene expression changes can lead to large changes in the entire body plan.

I know I will be called away soon so I haven't got the time to hunt down some good links but I'm sure you can find some good links on your own if you try.

There may be more than this on Pharyngula.

1010 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:50:09am

re: #1009 Mr Secul

I know I will be called away soon so I haven't got the time to hunt down some good links but I'm sure you can find some good links on your own if you try.

Does anyone have better links? Does anyone want to try out their Google Fu?

I leave it as an exercise for the reader. :-)

Bye for now.

1011 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 11:14:25am

re: #1009 Mr Secul

Interesting article although I'm not sure I buy into the "hox" gene cafeteria style formation or omission of unique body parts and certainly the functionality of those parts. The only place you'll see this published is in the National Enquirer (half boy/half lobster story).

1012 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 11:26:11am

re: #1005 Salamantis

Do you realize how long 3 1/2 billion years is? It's 1.75 million times the period of time between Jesus and now. Plenty of time for mutations to aggregate and speciate, and for evolutionary divergence to result in the amazing panoply of terrestrial species we see today.

If time is the key ingredient for complexity and diversity, then why haven't even the simplest bacteria been observed on Mars?

1013 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 11:30:50am

re: #1008 Mr Secul

Can you name the species of your example insects, do you have a link to a paper that compares the anatomical features of the ancient specimens with the anatomical features of the modern specimens?

Here's one link: Your text to link...

1014 gclaghorn  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:00:08pm

re: #975 Basho

Most of the scientist that I've heard who have gone on record to claim AGW is bunk don't have credentials related to talk about climate. Kind of like the mathematicians who say there is something to ID.


I think this professor of Environmental Analysis has the credentials necessary to form an opinion on the subject.

1015 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:05:25pm

re: #1012 srmoss

If time is the key ingredient for complexity and diversity, then why haven't even the simplest bacteria been observed on Mars?

It's one ingredient. Life also has to already be around in order to evolve, diversify, and speciate (and no, how life begins is not the province of evolutionary theory, but of origins of life theory). And of course, the environment has to be amenable to at least some survival. It's also quite possible that there is bacterial life on Mars; we haven't been able to go there and check yet. Our robots have checked a very tiny part of a pretty huge planet. And there's also the reasonable expectation that life began in a relatively tiny percentage of planets; just because it began on earth doesn't mean that it should begin on Mars, or Venus, etc.

But you're just playing the hamster wheel game; throwing out one question after another, which I patiently answer, while not addressing one damn bit all of my many questions to you. It's the sort of cynical, manipulative, dishonest and gratuitously churlish behavior I have come to expect from Genesis Literalists.

Btw: you might find this article to be interesting. Or then again, you might not.

Where Are They?
Why I hope the search for extraterrestrial life finds nothing
By Nick Bostrom
(free registration required)
[Link: www.technologyreview.com...]

1016 gclaghorn  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:07:40pm

re: #975 Basho

I suspect you know better than that, so I'll call it the way I see it: You're lying.

No I'm not. It's already been proven by scientists that warming causes the steady rise in CO2 levels, NOT that CO2 is causing rising temperatures.

1017 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:13:28pm

re: #1011 srmoss

Interesting article although I'm not sure I buy into the "hox" gene cafeteria style formation or omission of unique body parts and certainly the functionality of those parts. The only place you'll see this published is in the National Enquirer (half boy/half lobster story).

Actually, it was published in Nature Magazine, one of the most respectible scientific publications around, which you'd know if you'd read or comprehended the article in question in one of its simpler details.

Here's the link to three different Nature articles on the subject, from their February 2002 issue, taken from the body of the very paper that Mr. Secul linked to, if you're interested in anything except being insulting and annoying:

[Link: www.nature.com...]

1018 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 3:21:25pm

re: #1013 srmoss

Here's one link: Your text to link...

It shows what one would expect from evolution; some species have changed a little, others have changed a lot, and still others have gone extinct. And it also makes the point that God didn't create humans and insects, independently and as is, during the same week a few thousand years ago:

Excerpt:

Thus, as in nearly all groups of animals and plants, the process of evolution over the ages has resulted in many diverse insect faunas, each comprised of different insect groups and species. The fossil record shows that many ancient forms flourished for a time and then became extinct, to be replaced by more successful types better suited to the ever changing climatic and other environmental conditions of the Earth's land masses. In a general view, however, the insects as a whole must be looked on as very ancient inhabitants of the Earth, probably at least twice as old as the reptiles and three times as old as the mammals - perhaps nearly a thousand times as old as our own mammalian group, the hominids. In many cases, even the common and familiar insect species that we encounter nearly everyday in our homes and gardens have existed in their present form for at least 35-40 million years before mankind first appeared on Earth - something to ponder the next time you swat a fly!

1019 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 6:20:00pm

re: #1015 Salamantis


But you're just playing the hamster wheel game; throwing out one question after another, which I patiently answer, while not addressing one damn bit all of my many questions to you. It's the sort of cynical, manipulative, dishonest and gratuitously churlish behavior I have come to expect from Genesis Literalists.

First of all, I haven't mentioned anything about creation. I only initially commented on the observations and conclusions of Dobzhansky. And further, if the best you can do is act superior and decide that certain questions aren't allowed, then pat yourself on the back for being so darned scientific.

1020 Claire  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 7:52:10pm

re: #1016 gclaghorn

As far as I know, that's not strictly true. It's called positive feedback. CO2 contributes to a warm earth, if there was no CO2 in the atmosphere in the first place, the Earth would be a lot cooler place.

A warm Earth causes trapped CO2 to be released (in previously frozen tundra which stores CO2 in decayed plant material, for example) and that CO2 contributes possibly to further warming, which in turn causes more CO2 to be released, etc. Of course, their are mechanisms that re-absorb the CO2 that have a lot of influences, too.

What nobody is totally sure about is the balance that happens between positive and negative feedback. A warmer Earth also causes more water to evaporate from the oceans, which causes cloud cover, which cools the Earth. Or maybe causes more snow coverage which reflects more heat back and causes more cooling. It's the dance between positive and negative feedback and what equilibrium level that is achieved that is the real question.

The idea that the Earth will ALWAYS correct back to some magical equilibrium temperature is belied by the fact that the temp of the Earth has changed a lot in it's history. So what is normal?

1021 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 8:46:08pm

re: #1019 srmoss

First of all, I haven't mentioned anything about creation. I only initially commented on the observations and conclusions of Dobzhansky. And further, if the best you can do is act superior and decide that certain questions aren't allowed, then pat yourself on the back for being so darned scientific.

You didn't have to mention creationism; it was obvious from your posts that your intention was to undermine evolutionary theory, so that creationism or ID could benefit from default, which is a gross misconception born of a false dichotomy, as was pointed out in the third paragraph of post #998. And you began with a mischaracterization of Dobzhansky - a mischaracterization which was clearly and immediately pointed out to you. Once this mischaracterization was demonstrated beyond rational dispute, you proceeded with the creationist kitchen sink tactic of tossing out one unrelated question after another, without the slightest acknowledgment of the answers you received in response. You were only looking for the next thing, related or otherwise, that might work to undermine a scientific theory for which you obviously hold religious hostility.

The second related point is that you obviously, judging from your posts on this thread, wish to arrogate to yourself the right to ask me any and all questions, while simultaneously refusing to answer any of my own - a cynical and pernicious double standard. And in fact, you have not addressed a single point of mine, but have simply ignored them, while I have answered every single question that you have posed to me. It appears that what is not being allowed is not being forbidden by me, but rather what is not being provided by you - and that is answers to my own questions or responses to my own points.

And finally, you say 'darned scientific' as if that were a bad thing. This quasifreudian slip has served to reveal your anti-scientific, anti-empiricist, and anti-evidentiary biases in favor of the uncritical embrace of untestable and supporting-empirical-evidence-bereft religious dogma.

1022 srmoss  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:12:05pm

re: #1021 Salamantis

"And the distinction between major and minor changes is fuzzy, and comprised of nothing more than the continual accumulation of smaller changes."

Your explanation how major morphological changes and their associated functionality are simply the result of time and chance is something that seems a little too convenient in supporting your preconceived notions about evolution and lack the kind of scientific evidence you seem so proud of. Also, it's interesting how your preconceived notions about me, which were untrue BTW, caused you to react in an irrational and hostile way towards me when I in fact had no intention of promoting creation or ID theory. All for now.

1023 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:22:58pm

re: #1013 srmoss

Here's one link: Your text to link...

I saw this

The oldest insect fossils so far discovered are tiny imprints of wingless insects found in sandstone rocks of the mid-Devonian period (c. 380 million years old). These earliest fossils closely resemble modern springtails (Collembola) and even by this time they show most of the specialised evolutionary features that characterise the present-day members of this insect order (e.g., the reflexed 'tail' used for jumping). This would suggest that the insect-stock from which they arose must have been already very old in Devonian times, and that the first primitive wingless insects probably appeared much earlier, at least in the Silurian, around 410-440 million years ago.

it says that springtails, wingless insects, are essentially unchanged over a very long time.

It also says

The earliest fossils of winged insects come from the coal-measures of the mid-Carboniferous (c. 320 million years old). These include the remains of cockroaches (Dictyoptera), some of which are little different from present-day species. It would seem that this group have survived more or less unchanged perhaps from Devonian times (i.e., for about 360-400 million years).

That's pretty impressive.

But it immediately goes on to say this

The same coal deposits also contain the fossils of diverse archaic insects belonging to ancient lines that, unlike the cockroaches, gradually disappeared before the end of the Paleozoic era, leaving no modern descendants. Many of these archaic forms are huge dragonfly-like insects, with a wing-span of 20 cm or more, like the Palaeodictyoptera and Protodonata illustrated below - true 'dinosaurs' of the insect world.

So we see species that are very unlike modern species disappearing from the fossil record. In other words we see evolution.

It goes on

The relatively recent arrival of this latter group onto the insect scene (with mouthparts specially adapted for sucking nectar from flowers) is almost certainly linked to the appearance and spread of flowing plants in the late Mesosoic and early Tertiary eras. The approximate first appearance of these various groups of insects as fossils in the geological record, and the appearance of other animals and plants, is summarised in the table at the top of this page.

So we see the appearance of new species as a result of adaption. Evolution.

But, to be fair, it also says

All the insects so far discovered in amber deposits are familiar types that clearly belong to modern orders and families, and in many cases they belong to species that still exist today.

That's impressive, many insect species have lasted, essentially unchanged for very long periods of time.

But in the author's own words

The fossil record shows that many ancient forms flourished for a time and then became extinct, to be replaced by more successful types better suited to the ever changing climatic and other environmental conditions of the Earth's land masses.

So that link upholds the theory of evolution, it does not refute it.

Why do you focus on the static species and ignore the changes? Do you accept the theory of evolution? Are you just asking a questions about the mechanism?

Do you deny that evolution happened?

1024 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:36:54pm

re: #1022 srmoss

"And the distinction between major and minor changes is fuzzy, and comprised of nothing more than the continual accumulation of smaller changes."

Your explanation how major morphological changes and their associated functionality are simply the result of time and chance is something that seems a little too convenient in supporting your preconceived notions about evolution and lack the kind of scientific evidence you seem so proud of.

You are missing out natural selection. Which is strange considering that you and Sal mention it in other posts and I see 16 references to natural selection in the messages posted to date (excluding this one). Why do you omit natural selection? You must know that it is a fundamental part of the theory of evolution.

Also, it's interesting how your preconceived notions about me, which were untrue BTW, caused you to react in an irrational and hostile way towards me when I in fact had no intention of promoting creation or ID theory. All for now.

No you were just mentioning the problems with evolutionary theory.

/That has nothing to do with creationism, creation science, ID, cdesign proponentsists, or teaching the controversy.

1025 Mr Secul  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:55:45pm

re: #1019 srmoss

First of all, I haven't mentioned anything about creation. I only initially commented on the observations and conclusions of Dobzhansky.

Did he conclude that evolution didn't exist?

Is this the same Theodosius Dobzhansky that said, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." ?

And further, if the best you can do is act superior and decide that certain questions aren't allowed, then pat yourself on the back for being so darned scientific.

Have you ever watched Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed?

1026 Salamantis  Sat, Dec 20, 2008 10:58:40pm

re: #1022 srmoss

"And the distinction between major and minor changes is fuzzy, and comprised of nothing more than the continual accumulation of smaller changes."

Your explanation how major morphological changes and their associated functionality are simply the result of time and chance is something that seems a little too convenient in supporting your preconceived notions about evolution and lack the kind of scientific evidence you seem so proud of. Also, it's interesting how your preconceived notions about me, which were untrue BTW, caused you to react in an irrational and hostile way towards me when I in fact had no intention of promoting creation or ID theory. All for now.

Actually, the gross mischaracterization of evolution being a result of just 'time and chance' is wrong on its face, as has been explained on LGF many, many, many times before. While genetic mutation is indeed random, environmental selection is explicitly NONrandom, and successful genetic mutations are cumulative over the 3 1/2 BILLION year span of life on this planet. There is voluminous genetic evidence, either already analyzed or available for analysis at will, and supported by a vast and massive fossil record, as to precisely WHEN different species evolutionarily diverged, so to deny that it happens flies in the face of confirmable-at-will genetic and paleontological facts. That empirical evidence is indeed factuality, and not convenience. And my notions of you are not preconceived; they were explicitly informed by your nonreciprocative thread behavior. Thus those notions of mine concerning you are eminently rational, being deduced from your own posted evidence, and my tone of irritated annoyance is eminently deserved by you.

And I still notice that you haven't yet answered any of my many questions to you - a major cause of my exasperation. Cat gotcher fingertips? That fickle feline certainly seems to let go of them in a heartbeat whenever you wanna lob another question my way, but seems to latch on to them like a beartrap on steroids as far as answering any questions by me is concerned. Haven't you ever heard that turn about is fair play? Well, its utter lack is surpassingly UNfair.

1027 Mr Secul  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 6:06:48am

re: #981 srmoss

Dobzhansky: "The process of mutation is the only known source of the raw materials of genetic variability, and hence of evolution.. The mutants which arise are, with rare exceptions, deleterious to their carriers, at least in the environments which the species normally encounters."

...meaning evolution produces an ever increasingly inferior product and also meaning that a great amount of cognitive dissonance is required to accept evolutionary theory as fact.

Once again you ignore natural selection.

Unhelpful genes prevent the organisms that carry them from breeding successfully whilst the rare beneficial mutations give their possessors a breeding advantage that increases their prevalence in the population.

At least you don't say that all mutations are harmful. Oh wait...

re: #984 srmoss

Sal:

Dobzhansky claims that evolution is the operation of natural selection in conjunction with mutation. That doesn't provide much of an argument when mutations always produce an inferior result and natural selection can only choose from the best of the worst.


What nonsense. This kind of mutation has obvious advantages. Though I suspect that it would benefit members of other species more than humans. But, as always, whether a mutation is beneficial or deleterious depends on the environment.

And just in case the link expires:

BOSTON - Somewhere in Germany is a baby Superman, born in Berlin with bulging arm and leg muscles. Not yet 5, he can hold seven-pound weights with arms extended, something many adults cannot do. He has muscles twice the size of other kids his age and half their body fat.

DNA testing showed why: The boy has a genetic mutation that boosts muscle growth.

The discovery, reported in Thursday’s New England Journal of Medicine, represents the first documented human case of such a mutation.

Though, to be fair, there is a caveat:

The boy is healthy now, but doctors worry he could eventually suffer heart or other health problems.

Time will tell if this becomes a real problem. And note: the bad effects may occur after an organism has successfully bred. In which case the mutation would still be selected for by natural selection.

It is thought that this explains the problems with aging. Natural selection will often select for early reproductive success over an individual's personal longevity.

Short generation times give faster breeding times and larger population sizes.


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MikeySDCA
China Is Culturally Superior to America - the Atlantic Wire
27 minutes ago
Views: 15 • Comments: 0
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researchok
'I Was Looking Forward to a Quiet Old Age': Instead, Etta Shiber, Helped Smuggle Stranded Allied Soldiers To Freedom
5 hours, 58 minutes ago
Views: 76 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 0

Daniel Ballard
Late Afternoon Light-Kalanchoe
13 hours, 39 minutes ago
Views: 110 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5

Eclectic Infidel
City College of San Francisco Budget Update
14 hours, 32 minutes ago
Views: 127 • Comments: 0
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Michael McBacon
Kansas governor signs 'Shariah bill' to ban Islamic law
19 hours, 2 minutes ago
Views: 239 • Comments: 6
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5

Aigle
National Geographic Traveler Veers Off Track
1 day, 19 hours ago
Views: 460 • Comments: 7
Tweets: 0 • Rating: -5

MichaelJ
Apple TV Slated to Debut in December?
1 day, 20 hours ago
Views: 231 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1

Ascher
Israeli Who Saved Turk on Everest: You Never Abandon a Friend - Israel News, Ynetnews
1 day, 21 hours ago
Views: 302 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 3

Haywood Jabloeme
The Harrassment of Patterico & Its Roots in Left-Wing Activism
1 day, 21 hours ago
Views: 525 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4

Curt
Brian Banks: (Video) Falsely accused of rape speaks out
2 days ago
Views: 277 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5

 Frank says:

It's better to have something to remember than nothing to regret...