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Hitchens on Rick Warren

Religion | Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:06:53 pm PST

Christopher Hitchens seems a bit disappointed to find Barack Obama engaging in the same sort of pandering that caused Hitchens to bail out on John McCain: If we must have an officiating priest at the inauguration, we can do much better than Rick Warren.

It is a fact that Rick Warren, pastor of the Saddleback Church in Orange County, Calif., was present at a meeting of the Aspen Institute not long ago and was asked by Lynda Resnick—she of the pomegranate-juice dynasty—if a Jew like herself could expect to be admitted to paradise. Warren publicly told her no. What choice did he have? His own theology says that only those who accept Jesus can hope to be saved. I have just missed the chance to debate on CBS with one of Warren’s leading allies and defenders, the Dallas preacherman who calls himself Dr. Robert Jeffress. In the opinion of this learned fellow, even though Mitt Romney “talks about Jesus as his lord and savior, he is not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity.”

It is also a fact that Rick Warren proclaims as his original mentor a man named Wallie Amos Criswell, who was the inspirational figure in the rightward move of the Southern Baptist Convention in the 1960s. Rightward in that time and context meant exactly what you might suspect it did—a cold hostility to any civil rights activism on the part of the churches. Theologically, it also meant the crack-brained idea of “dispensationalist premillennialism,” or, in other words, the imminence of planetary death and the corollary joys of the “rapture” that would snatch the true believer into the skies just in time.

In his own “purpose-driven” words, Warren has described the dismal nutbag Criswell as the “greatest American pastor of the 20th century” and has told us of the mystic moment in the 1970s when he himself was granted a laying on of Criswell’s hands. (The promise, you may not be startled to hear, was of a large and prosperous congregation in the young man’s future.)

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185 comments

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1 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:07:50pm

Maybe the Warren pick will knock some sense back into Hitchens.

2 JacksonTn  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:08:55pm

I am not asking this to be a smartass ....is Hitchens gay? Just wondering if he finds Warren offensive on two fronts ...

3 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:09:05pm

What about the fact that Warren shared the stage with Juan Cole, at the MPAC dinner?

That's just as bad as condemning all Jews to Hell, cavalierly.

4 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:09:35pm

re: #2 JacksonTn

I am not asking this to be a smartass ....is Hitchens gay? Just wondering if he finds Warren offensive on two fronts ...

No. It's just he's so cantankerous, no one will sleep with him.

5 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:09:51pm

Plus, that cigarette breath. Ewwwwwww.

6 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:10:05pm

re: #3 zombie

What about the fact that Warren shared the stage with Juan Cole, at the MPAC dinner?

That's just as bad as condemning all Jews to Hell, cavalierly.

As a Jew, I could care less when anyone condems me to hell. I can get there all on my own!

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:11:21pm

re: #6 Nevergiveup

Christian here. See you there!

8 Alouette  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:11:25pm
Rick Warren, pastor of the Saddleback Church in Orange County, Calif., was present at a meeting of the Aspen Institute not long ago and was asked by Lynda Resnick—she of the pomegranate-juice dynasty—if a Jew like herself could expect to be admitted to paradise. Warren publicly told her no. What choice did he have? His own theology says that only those who accept Jesus can hope to be saved.

I mean like, so freaking what? Why should I or any other non-Christian give a poop if Rick Warren (or Nihad Awad, or Fred Phelps) thinks we can "expect to be admitted to paradise."

I mean like, who's the freaking bouncer "up there"?

9 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:12:16pm

re: #1 zombie


Hitchens pretty much doesn't see any difference between Christians and Mohammedans. I doubt that Obama's picking Rick Warren is going to do anything to change his mind on that.

Just because he doesn't want to see America smashed and Jihadism ascendent, doesn't mean he's suddenly on the right side of every arguement. Hitchens is still a Leftist. I don't expect to agree with much of anything that he says.

10 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:12:16pm

MPAC Convention program:

"DR. RICK WARREN, author of "A Purpose Driven Life," hosted a groundbreaking faith forum with presidential candidates Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama, which was broadcast on CNN this summer....etc.

JUAN COLE is a professor of History at the University of Michigan, serves as the President of the Global Americana Institute, and publishes an extremely popular blog called "Informed Comment." ...etc."

A man is judged by the company he keeps.

11 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:12:27pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Christian here. See you there!

I'll bring the scotch.

12 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:12:50pm
Christopher Hitchens seems a bit disappointed

/gee, I guessed that before even opening this thread

13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:14:07pm

re: #11 Nevergiveup

I'll bring the scotch.

I'll bring the cigars. (Probably won't need matches).

14 JacksonTn  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:14:23pm

re: #10 zombie

MPAC Convention program:

"DR. RICK WARREN, author of "A Purpose Driven Life," hosted a groundbreaking faith forum with presidential candidates Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama, which was broadcast on CNN this summer....etc.

JUAN COLE is a professor of History at the University of Michigan, serves as the President of the Global Americana Institute, and publishes an extremely popular blog called "Informed Comment." ...etc."

A man is judged by the company he keeps.

Well ...Deepak introduced Melissa via video at the same faith forum ...I am sure a good time was had by all ...

15 JammieWearingFool  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:14:26pm

I'm glad I won't be watching the inauguration. That way nobody will offend me.

16 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:14:40pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll bring the cigars. (Probably won't need matches).

I better bring a shit load of ice I guess?

17 Kobyashi Maru  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:14:44pm

Well, duh, this is news from a Jewish born atheist who writes books called "G-d is not great"? Of course the is disappointed--where is Madalyn Murray O'Hare when he needs her?

Maybe people would be happier if Obama invited someone from CAIR, or a flying imam, then nobody would be surprised, lol...

18 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:15:00pm
In his own “purpose-driven” words, Warren has described the dismal nutbag Criswell

This isn't the same Criswell who was in Plan 9 From Outer Space, the whacked-out psychic preacher?!?!?!?!?

19 Killian Bundy  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:15:11pm

re: #10 zombie

MPAC Convention program:

"DR. RICK WARREN, author of "A Purpose Driven Life," hosted a groundbreaking faith forum with presidential candidates Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama, which was broadcast on CNN this summer....etc.

JUAN COLE is a professor of History at the University of Michigan, serves as the President of the Global Americana Institute, and publishes an extremely popular blog called "Informed Comment." ...etc."

A man is judged by the company he keeps.

Don't forget the entertainment, Melissa Etheridge.

/WTF was she doing there?

20 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:15:47pm

re: #15 JammieWearingFool

I'm glad I won't be watching the inauguration. That way nobody will offend me.

Me either. I think I will have a real big steak and some lamb chops and get real drunk that day. What day of the week is that anyway?

21 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:16:36pm
22 JacksonTn  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:17:01pm

re: #15 JammieWearingFool

I'm glad I won't be watching the inauguration. That way nobody will offend me.

I will not be watching it either ...I would not be able to stand the media ...or the "I have come to save the world" speech ...I just hope he gets his ass to work protecting this country the next day ...

23 DEZes  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:17:03pm

re: #20 Nevergiveup

Me either. I think I will have a real big steak and some lamb chops and get real drunk that day. What day of the week is that anyway?

That will make 2 of us. ;)

24 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:17:20pm
25 MJ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:17:25pm

Hitchens asks:

Will Warren be invited to the solemn ceremony of inauguration without being asked to repudiate what he has directly said to deny salvation to Jews?

Will he be giving a national invocation without disowning what his mentor said about civil rights and what his leading supporter says about Mormons?

Will the American people be prayed into the next administration, which will be confronted by a possible nuclear Iran and an already nuclear Pakistan, by a half-educated pulpit-pounder raised in the belief that the Armageddon solution is one to be anticipated with positive glee?
[Link: slate.msn.com...]

26 ornery elephant  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:19:40pm

re: #12 Killian Bundy

Christopher Hitchens seems a bit disappointed


/gee, I guessed that before even opening this thread

It's my guess that Hitchens would prefer that Obama be sworn in with his hand on a box of Cap'n Crunch cereal.

27 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:19:55pm

Well- I would feel bad for Mr. Hitchens about all this, but some people fooled by the snake oil salesman really only have themselves to blame.

28 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:20:11pm

So while Obama is getting sworn in Iran will be installing the S-300 missile system. Pleasant dreams?

29 MJ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:20:17pm

re: #25 MJ

Then again, Hitchens had no problems sharing a stage with Edward Said.

30 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:21:24pm

re: #29 MJ

Then again, Hitchens had no problems sharing a stage with Edward Said.

Well he might now. If I am not mistaken Said has gone to visit Allah?

31 rawmuse  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:23:22pm

re: #8 Alouette

I mean like, so freaking what? Why should I or any other non-Christian give a poop if Rick Warren (or Nihad Awad, or Fred Phelps) thinks we can "expect to be admitted to paradise."

I mean like, who's the freaking bouncer "up there"?

Don Rickles. Oh, yeah, be afraid.

32 jwb7605  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:24:15pm

re: #26 ornery elephant

It's my guess that Hitchens would prefer that Obama be sworn in with his hand on a box of Cap'n Crunch cereal.

That would be my preference, too.
/Hitchens is still an idiot.

33 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:24:40pm

I admit I'm a little puzzled. Where do people think Obama is going to find a mainstream priest/preacher who is pro-gay rights and allows non Christians into heaven?
I'm more troubled by his outreach to MPAC but that's just me. The rest of this is generic Christianity. Why is anyone surprised?

34 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:25:55pm

Looks like there is a blizzard out in Seattle?

35 jcm  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:27:16pm

re: #34 Nevergiveup

Looks like there is a blizzard out in Seattle?

I now believe in Global Warming.....
I shoveled 12" off my walk and driveway....
Boy am I warm.

36 MJ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:27:26pm

re: #30 Nevergiveup

Well he might now. If I am not mistaken Said has gone to visit Allah?

No Allah for Idwārd Wadīʿ Saʿīd. He was a Protestant.

37 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:27:39pm

re: #34 Nevergiveup

Portland got slammed pretty good too. The fountain in my pond has turned into a 6 ft tall block of ice.

38 FrogMarch  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:27:56pm
As Barack Obama is gradually learning, his job is to be the president of all Americans at all times. If he likes, he can oppose the idea of marriage for Americans who are homosexual. That's a policy question on which people may and will disagree. However, the man he has chosen to deliver his inaugural invocation is a relentless clerical businessman who raises money on the proposition that certain Americans—non-Christians, the wrong kind of Christians, homosexuals, nonbelievers—are of less worth and littler virtue than his own lovely flock of redeemed and salvaged and paid-up donors.

but wait-- Warren just said he loves Muslims and Homosexuals- and Melissa Etheridge was gleeful. Warren better come out and say he loves Mormons and Jews.

39 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:28:48pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

I admit I'm a little puzzled. Where do people think Obama is going to find a mainstream priest/preacher who is pro-gay rights and allows non Christians into heaven?
I'm more troubled by his outreach to MPAC but that's just me. The rest of this is generic Christianity. Why is anyone surprised?

Well, having read the entire piece now, it seems Christopher is surprised that hucksters are attracted to other hucksters, or that cheetahs don't change their spots. 0bama tolerated the bigotry of wright, why shouldn't he tolerate it elsewhere?

40 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:29:04pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

I admit I'm a little puzzled. Where do people think Obama is going to find a mainstream priest/preacher who is pro-gay rights and allows non Christians into heaven?
I'm more troubled by his outreach to MPAC but that's just me. The rest of this is generic Christianity. Why is anyone surprised?

It could be worse; he could have chosen Benny Hinn...

41 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:29:09pm

re: #36 MJ

No Allah for Idwārd Wadīʿ Saʿīd. He was a Protestant.

OK. But he was still a jack off.

42 Miss Trixie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:29:56pm

re: #35 jcm

I now believe in Global Warming.....
I shoveled 12" off my walk and driveway....
Boy am I warm.

I believe it. I'm presently procrastinating over the six inches of Gore-bull worming on my deck.

... Shag it ...

/pours a teeny glass of sherry, curls up on the ugly sofa with Lil Miss.

43 jwb7605  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:30:35pm

re: #21 zombie

I guess not. Here's the real Criswell.


- - - - - - - - - - - - -

"... who was famous for his wildly inaccurate predictions ..."


... and on the previous thread, I predicted the Broncos would lose today.

That prediction isn't looking good, maybe I'll be famous!

Signing off for obvious reasons ...

44 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:30:38pm
As Barack Obama is gradually learning, his job is to be the president of all Americans at all times. If he likes, he can oppose the idea of marriage for Americans who are homosexual. That's a policy question on which people may and will disagree. However, the man he has chosen to deliver his inaugural invocation is a relentless clerical businessman who raises money on the proposition that certain Americans—non-Christians, the wrong kind of Christians, homosexuals, nonbelievers—are of less worth and littler virtue than his own lovely flock of redeemed and salvaged and paid-up donors.

This quite simply cannot stand. Is it possible that Obama did not know the ideological background of his latest pastor? The thought seems plausible when one recalls the way in which he tolerated the odious Jeremiah Wright. Or is it possible that he does know the background of racism and superstition and sectarianism but thinks (as with Wright) that it might be politically useful in attracting a certain constituency? Either of these choices is pretty awful to contemplate.

Little late to contemplate it now, Chris.

45 redc1c4  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:30:45pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Christian here. See you there!

hell is other people: we're already there.....

(lizards excepted. %-)

46 MJ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:30:49pm

re: #41 Nevergiveup

OK. But he was still a jack off.

You betcha. May he rot in hell....

47 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:30:51pm

re: #42 Miss Trixie

I believe it. I'm presently procrastinating over the six inches of Gore-bull worming on my deck.

... Shag it ...

/pours a teeny glass of sherry, curls up on the ugly sofa with Lil Miss.

I'm counting on my deck being strong enough to support all that global warming on it at the moment.

48 avanti  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:31:21pm

re: #6 Nevergiveup

As a Jew, I could care less when anyone condems me to hell. I can get there all on my own!

"Go to heaven for the climate, to hell for the company.

49 Nevergiveup  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:31:27pm

re: #45 redc1c4

hell is other people: we're already there.....

(lizards excepted. %-)

You must know my liberal family?

50 Alouette  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:31:29pm

Well, Scheissburgers! HVAC guy says we have to replace our furnace. $2000.

Happy Hanukkah to you too!

51 amphibian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:32:13pm

That's not the same Criswell who was in "Plan 9 from Outer Space", is it? You know, future-events-are-going-to-affect-us-all-in-the-fu ture Criswell?

52 redc1c4  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:32:13pm

re: #34 Nevergiveup

Looks like there is a blizzard out in Seattle?

my aunt in Tacoma has been stuck in the house for several days already....

we called last night, and i get the idea she's getting cabin fever: we talked for 1:40..... phone damn near ran out of charge. %-)

/global warming!

53 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:32:49pm

re: #50 Alouette

Well, Scheissburgers! HVAC guy says we have to replace our furnace. $2000.

Happy Hanukkah to you too!

Oh, golly!
I hope they can do it soon? I'm surprised your fingers aren't frozen yet . . .

54 jcm  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:32:51pm

Oh topic in general.

I'm an evangelical Christian.
I believe there is one way to live for eternity in the presence of God.
Everyone is cordially invited to come with me on my journey.
Past that it's not my business to condemn anyone, except maybe to denounce the Fred Phelps' of the world but that may be considered "family" business.

If you choose not to join me on my journey, that's fine, my duty is to invite you.
In the end will all discover the truth together. My faith tells me I'm right, my faith reassures me, that's way it's faith. My intellect is immensely curious about what comes after.

55 Steffan  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:33:35pm

OT, or maybe not: I happened across an interesting quote:

"Progressivism was born of the fascist moment and has never faced up to its inheritance. Today's liberals have inherited progressive prejudice wholesale, believing that traditionalists and religious conservatives are dangerous threats to progress. But this assumption means that liberals are blind to fascistic threats from their own ranks."

(snip)

"Mainstream liberalism is joined at the hip with racial and sexual-identity groups of one kind or another. A basic premise shared by all these groups is that their members should be rewarded simply by virtue of their racial, gender, or sexual status. In short, the state should pick winners and losers based upon the accidents of birth. Liberals champion this perspective in the name of antiracism. Unlike conservatives who champion a color-blind state, liberals still believe that the state should organize society on racial lines."

--Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, pg. 254

56 NYCHardhat  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:34:19pm

re: #4 zombie

No. It's just he's so cantankerous, no one will sleep with him.

I believe he is married with children.

57 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:34:31pm

re: #40 Salamantis

Hell, I attend the inauguration myself if Benny Hinn was running the show.

58 redc1c4  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:34:34pm

re: #22 JacksonTn

I will not be watching it either ...I would not be able to stand the media ...or the "I have come to save the world" speech ...I just hope he gets his ass to work protecting this country the next day ...

sorry, but i believe that his office will shortly issue a finding that "protecting the country" is above his pay grade.....

no "/" at all.

59 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:35:11pm
60 NYCHardhat  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:35:14pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Christian here. See you there!

We're going to have some badass tunes to keep us company while meeting all of our friends.

61 amphibian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:35:20pm

re: #10 zombie

MPAC Convention program:

"DR. RICK WARREN, author of "A Purpose Driven Life," hosted a groundbreaking faith forum with presidential candidates Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama, which was broadcast on CNN this summer....etc.

JUAN COLE is a professor of History at the University of Michigan, serves as the President of the Global Americana Institute, and publishes an extremely popular blog called "Informed Comment." ...etc."

A man is judged by the company he keeps.

Not Husseinovich. "That's not the company I keep that I knew", and all is forgiven.

62 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:35:32pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

I think part of it is because of the Wright/Trinity Church thing. Obama is either an anti-American racist, or he doesn't really put much stock in his "faith" and his "spiritual" leaders.

I think a lot of people believe that latter. That's the way I feel about him. He picked Warren because he's a very well known Christian. If Billy Graham were younger, he'd have probably picked him.

And as you say, he's not going to find a pro-gay pro-abortion Preacher anywhere in mainstream Christianity. He could probably find someone somewhere who claimed to be a Christian and still held Leftwing views on social issues. There are also people out there that handle poisonous snakes.

You can find just about anything if you look long enough.

63 redc1c4  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:35:53pm

re: #48 avanti

"Go to heaven for the climate, to hell for the company.

as a Cav Trooper, i'm going to Fiddler's Green.

y'all be sure to stop off for a drink on your journey! %-)

64 J.S.  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:36:04pm

re: #9 Iron Fist

Frequently, Hitchens (if you analyze his "arguments") is incoherent -- he simply rants. (I have doubts if Hitchens' "musings"/diatribes would ever have been published a couple of decades ago...the "press" has been in an enormous decline..)

65 avanti  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:36:15pm

re: #16 Nevergiveup

I better bring a shit load of ice I guess?

True, but we can make money doing post rapture pet care

Rapture Pet care..

66 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:36:42pm

re: #50 Alouette

Well, Scheissburgers! HVAC guy says we have to replace our furnace. $2000.

Happy Hanukkah to you too!

Get another bid. Heck, get 5 more bids. And then haggle. Times are tough all over, they will negotiate. Good luck.

67 Miss Trixie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:37:15pm

re: #47 Nevergiveup

I'm counting on my deck being strong enough to support all that global warming on it at the moment.

I hope it holds for your sake. I contemplated not clearing the accumulation all winter but it's my emergency exit so I must.

Later I'll do it.

*sip*

68 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:37:34pm

re: #51 amphibian

That's not the same Criswell who was in "Plan 9 from Outer Space", is it? You know, future-events-are-going-to-affect-us-all-in-the-fu ture Criswell?

No, this is a different charlatan.

69 zombie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:38:07pm

re: #40 Salamantis

It could be worse; he could have chosen Benny Hinn...

Or even worse -- he could have chosen Benny Hill.

70 Charles  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:38:24pm

re: #51 amphibian

That's not the same Criswell who was in "Plan 9 from Outer Space", is it? You know, future-events-are-going-to-affect-us-all-in-the-fu ture Criswell?

No, the "Plan 9" Criswell was a weirdo psychic type who was born Jeron Criswell Konig. I'd bet his stage name refers to W. A. Criswell, though.

71 redc1c4  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:38:29pm

re: #62 Iron Fist

I think part of it is because of the Wright/Trinity Church thing. Obama is either an anti-American racist, or he doesn't really put much stock in his "faith" and his "spiritual" leaders.

I think a lot of people believe that latter. That's the way I feel about him. He picked Warren because he's a very well known Christian. If Billy Graham were younger, he'd have probably picked him.
(snipage occurs)

i don't think Juggy believes in much of anything at all, except getting elected.

72 Catttt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:38:57pm

re: #69 zombie

Or even worse -- he could have chosen Benny Hill.

Benny Hill would have been AWESOME. :D

73 J.S.  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:39:09pm

re: #21 zombie

btw, Zombie, is there any evidence that Obama actually intends to have Warren become a "spiritual adviser" -- is this just a rumor or is it backed up anywhere?

74 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:39:16pm
75 caligal  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:39:36pm

I find Warren less offensive than wright.

76 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:39:40pm

re: #64 J.S.

I've never really been impressed with Hitchens. He's just another man with another opinion. why should his opinion carry any more weight than my own?

I feel that way about a lot of the talking heads on TV.

77 Alouette  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:40:10pm

re: #66 experiencedtraveller

Get another bid. Heck, get 5 more bids. And then haggle. Times are tough all over, they will negotiate. Good luck.

Maybe I should just call the media, have them run a sob story, and get the government to pay for it?

78 Charles  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:40:59pm

Oops, meant to write: I'd bet his parents picked his middle name in reference to W. A. Criswell.

79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:41:10pm

re: #50 Alouette

Don't mean to butt in, uh, but... 2,000.00 seems a bit cheap.

80 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:41:24pm

re: #71 redc1c4

Don't make fun of his ears. The formal way to refer to him is Barrack Hussein Obama. But his friends call him "Dumbo".

:-þ

81 Iron Fist  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:43:10pm

re: #79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I started to comment on that myself. I had to replace my heat and air about four years ago, and it was something like $3500-4000. And I don't have a big, kick-ass system.

82 NoSubmission  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:43:23pm

re: #71 redc1c4

i don't think Juggy believes in much of anything at all, except getting elected.


I think are absolutely right. He doesn't. Just read the interview he did with the Chicago Sun-Times in 2004 that was republished in Christianity Today.

Pretty much says it all to me.

83 avanti  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:43:29pm

re: #75 caligal

I find Warren less offensive than wright.

Here's a challenge for you, name someone that we be acceptable to everyone, from Evangelicals, to atheists, even just all Evangelicals for that matter.

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:44:05pm

re: #77 Alouette

Maybe I should just call the media, have them run a sob story, and get the government to pay for it?

He done other work for you. You like him? Get it. Times are tough, but people are charging more these days, or doing less.

This is my field. The guys who are going down in price these days, are doing poor work or using crap that they have stolen.

If you're doing 1/2 the work that you were doing a year ago, how do you cut your prices? Terms are tougher too.

85 The Shadow Do  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:47:11pm
if a Jew like herself could expect to be admitted to paradise. Warren publicly told her no.

All of this religious back and forth seems way to cluby to me with restrictive memberships and privileges accorded by some obscure point system as defined by this or that know-it-all.

For better or worse, I expect that I will find my way to God (or not) eventually without ritual and dogma. Meanwhile, I will judge myself and others on what we do.

Rick Warren evidently fancies himself as a do-gooder. I hope he succeeds in a material way, though his approval is completely meaningless in the scheme of things to me.

86 Timbre  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:47:13pm

Hitchens may rant, but I find him right.

87 EmmmieG  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:48:34pm

Lessee--a president I most definitely did not vote for has invited a preacher who thinks I am going to hell (but would probably be very nice to me) to pray at an inauguration I am not going to watch. Now a commentator I only sporadically agree with has taken offense.

I really have no dog in this fight.

88 EmmmieG  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:49:39pm

re: #86 Timbre

Hitchens may rant, but I find him right.


Even though he describes himself as a man of the left?

89 amphibian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:50:03pm

re: #69 zombie

Or even worse -- he could have chosen Benny Hill.

Sounds like better to me. Except for Benny Hill being dead and all. (He's dead, right?) Now, an Obama inauguration with Zombie Benny Hill presiding, I would even tune in on the television!

90 NoSubmission  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:50:37pm

re: #83 avanti

Here's a challenge for you, name someone that we be acceptable to everyone, from Evangelicals, to atheists, even just all Evangelicals for that matter.


I've been mulling this for the last 5 minutes and I'm stumped. Atheists would likely not like anyone praying, they would probably prefer incense and chanting.

91 Sunlight  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:50:37pm

re: #83 avanti

Here's a challenge for you, name someone that we be acceptable to everyone, from Evangelicals, to atheists, even just all Evangelicals for that matter.

It'll have to be R2D2. Or a cylon.

92 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:50:37pm

re: #87 EmmmieG

You the pretty girl in the avatar? You the baby in the avatar? Why does Rick think you're going to hell?

93 jcm  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:51:16pm

re: #89 amphibian

Sounds like better to me. Except for Benny Hill being dead and all. (He's dead, right?) Now, an Obama inauguration with Zombie Benny Hill presiding, I would even tune in on the television!

Obama in a suit coat with boxers and no pants? Or is that Monty Python?

94 jwb7605  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:52:28pm

re: #82 NoSubmission

I think are absolutely right. He doesn't. Just read the interview he did with the Chicago Sun-Times in 2004 that was republished in Christianity Today.

Pretty much says it all to me.

This says a lot, and answers some questions, if Obama was telling the truth then:

FALSANI:
Do you still attend Trinity?

OBAMA:
Yep. Every week. 11 oclock service.

Ever been there? Good service.

95 Steffan  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:54:13pm

re: #62 Iron Fist

It's possible. He could have invited that gay Episcopal bishop.

Obama picks his friends and associates by assessing their value to him. Wright was politically expedient for Obama when he was moving up the Illinois machine's ladder; he wasn't thrown under the bus until the national audience that Obama was trying to win learned just what kind of whackjob Wright is.

I think The One looks at Warren the same way. Warren came to prominence by being the most competent debate moderator of them all. He pastors for a large and relatively prosperous congregation, and his worldview is closer to the evangelical mainstream than Wright will ever be.

Obama is remarkably cynical (wasn't he against cynicism during the campaign?), and will do whatever it takes to win. To me, Obamaism = Anything Goes.

96 Sunlight  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:54:58pm

re: #6 Nevergiveup

As a Jew, I could care less when anyone condems me to hell. I can get there all on my own!

I agree with you. I mean as long as no one tries to help send me or mine to hell, I don't care what they think. You'd have to exclude the Episcopalians (who told my mom before she died that her grandchildren are going to hell because we've raised them Jewish, shaming her into having no relationship with them), the Catholics (who condemn birth control even when people are starving in the streets), etc. Hitchens might like having a robot with no spiritual ideas whatsoever. This kind of nitpicking drives me crazy.

97 EmmmieG  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:56:25pm

re: #92 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A. The pretty girl is my mother, who was, and still is, very beautiful. My father took about 8,000 slides between 1969 and 1985, and I digitized them all for them. I'm the bald, diaper-wearing one.

B. Evangelicals think Mormons are going to hell. My cousins think so, but they are still great cousins. We just don't discuss religion.

98 Sunlight  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:56:52pm

Maybe he could invite Rev. Wright to lead the millions in a chorus of "God Damn America!" Would that make Hitchens happy? Edgy.

99 sawblade88  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:57:25pm

re: #22 JacksonTn

I will not be watching it either ...I would not be able to stand the media ...or the "I have come to save the world" speech ...I just hope he gets his ass to work protecting this country the next day immediately ...

He doesn't get a training period after he starts.

100 Catttt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:58:58pm

re: #96 Sunlight

the Catholics (who condemn birth control even when people are starving in the streets),

So, by that logic, we should perhaps murder a few of the starving?

Can of peas - let us glue the lid back on it. And Yes, I am a Catholic, tyvm.

101 avanti  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 1:59:41pm

re: #91 Sunlight

It'll have to be R2D2. Or a cylon.

Did you ever ponder what will happen to the earth's religions when we meet ET ? (Other then expanding the missionaries travel time.)

102 Boxy_brown  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:00:36pm

Hitchens needs to lighten up.

103 Catttt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:01:08pm

re: #102 Boxy_brown

Hitchens needs to lighten up.

No he doesn't. That's not his job.

104 Hobbes  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:01:38pm

re: #55 Steffan

To illustrate this...In Illinois the Liberals believe our replacement Senator should be black since they will be replacing a black. Any other race would be unfair. Qualifications, as usual, do not count.

105 capitalist piglet  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:02:14pm

re: #97 EmmmieG

A. The pretty girl is my mother, who was, and still is, very beautiful. My father took about 8,000 slides between 1969 and 1985, and I digitized them all for them. I'm the bald, diaper-wearing one.

B. Evangelicals think Mormons are going to hell. My cousins think so, but they are still great cousins. We just don't discuss religion.

Do you happen to know what Mormons believe, concerning the afterlife for evangelicals? Come to think of it, I honestly don't know what other religions teach on that topic.

Anybody got a rundown on that?

106 pat  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:03:46pm

I find Hitchens insufferable.

107 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:04:32pm

re: #100 Catttt

So, by that logic, we should perhaps murder a few of the starving?

Can of peas - let us glue the lid back on it. And Yes, I am a Catholic, tyvm.

I am too.
And of course, the public and charitable services performed by the Catholic Church are typically ignored, while focusing on an aspect of Catholicism that isn't PC.

108 Sunlight  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:04:36pm

re: #100 Catttt

So, by that logic, we should perhaps murder a few of the starving?

Can of peas - let us glue the lid back on it. And Yes, I am a Catholic, tyvm.

My point is that everyone and every religion believes what they want and lots of others don't agree with it. But I would prefer that we not exclude being friendly among groups as long as there is not incitement to violence or infringement on each others' bill of rights rights. Hmmm that was weird.

109 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:06:59pm

re: #108 Sunlight

My point is that everyone and every religion believes what they want and lots of others don't agree with it. But I would prefer that we not exclude being friendly among groups as long as there is not incitement to violence or infringement on each others' bill of rights rights. Hmmm that was weird.

Well - I can't think of many who would prefer to be unfriendly among groups.

But your statement:I agree with you. I mean as long as no one tries to help send me or mine to hell, I don't care what they think. You'd have to exclude the Episcopalians (who told my mom before she died that her grandchildren are going to hell because we've raised them Jewish, shaming her into having no relationship with them), the Catholics (who condemn birth control even when people are starving in the streets), etc. Hitchens might like having a robot with no spiritual ideas whatsoever. This kind of nitpicking drives me crazy.

seems to specifically exclude Episcopalians and Catholics from your friendship. Maybe I read it wrong.

110 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:09:17pm

re: #75 caligal

I find Warren less offensive than wright.

That isn't saying much...

111 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:10:31pm

re: #90 NoSubmission

I've been mulling this for the last 5 minutes and I'm stumped. Atheists would likely not like anyone praying, they would probably prefer incense and chanting.

No, that would be the Soka Gakkai Buddhists.

112 Sunlight  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:11:49pm

re: #109 reine.de.tout

Well - I can't think of many who would prefer to be unfriendly among groups.

But your statement:I agree with you. I mean as long as no one tries to help send me or mine to hell, I don't care what they think. You'd have to exclude the Episcopalians (who told my mom before she died that her grandchildren are going to hell because we've raised them Jewish, shaming her into having no relationship with them), the Catholics (who condemn birth control even when people are starving in the streets), etc. Hitchens might like having a robot with no spiritual ideas whatsoever. This kind of nitpicking drives me crazy.

seems to specifically exclude Episcopalians and Catholics from your friendship. Maybe I read it wrong.

Either you read it wrong or I am not good at editing my own thoughts! My point was the opposite... even if we don't agree, we stay friends. As they say, some of my best friends are Episcopalians and Catholics... I didn't even know about my mom's situation until much later; I just thought it was her arthritis keeping her home.

113 Catttt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:13:34pm

re: #108 Sunlight

My point is that everyone and every religion believes what they want and lots of others don't agree with it. But I would prefer that we not exclude being friendly among groups as long as there is not incitement to violence or infringement on each others' bill of rights rights. Hmmm that was weird.

Friendly is cool. I have all kinds of friends, including Pagans, atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, none of the aboves, and various types of Christians. We also get along pretty well here. I had to laugh when I realized that my youtube subscriptions and subscribers include Muslims, Christians, and a couple of atheists, not to mention goths and black metal groups. I've even had a couple of rather nice youtube e-mail conversations with Muslims. Didn't convert me, but we found things we had in common, which was kind of fun.

I have to say you kind of proved your point. A good way to get along is not to list a series of hot butten issues and state how those other groups are wrong about something. You listed them, and boom - pushed one of mine. :D

I don't share Pastor Warren's religious beliefs, to be sure, but I know for a fact that he has done immensely good stuff in Africa, when many MANY other people have done zip. For that alone, he has my admiration.

114 Catttt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:14:50pm

Geez, I spelled button wrong. Dang IE.

115 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:16:39pm
116 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:17:24pm

re: #112 Sunlight

Either you read it wrong or I am not good at editing my own thoughts! My point was the opposite... even if we don't agree, we stay friends. As they say, some of my best friends are Episcopalians and Catholics... I didn't even know about my mom's situation until much later; I just thought it was her arthritis keeping her home.

OK.
Sorry about your mom's situation, that was just not right.

And I agree with Cattt in re: #113 Catttt

117 Sunlight  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:18:04pm

re: #113 Catttt

Friendly is cool. I have all kinds of friends, including Pagans, atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, none of the aboves, and various types of Christians. We also get along pretty well here. I had to laugh when I realized that my youtube subscriptions and subscribers include Muslims, Christians, and a couple of atheists, not to mention goths and black metal groups. I've even had a couple of rather nice youtube e-mail conversations with Muslims. Didn't convert me, but we found things we had in common, which was kind of fun.

I have to say you kind of proved your point. A good way to get along is not to list a series of hot butten issues and state how those other groups are wrong about something. You listed them, and boom - pushed one of mine. :D

I don't share Pastor Warren's religious beliefs, to be sure, but I know for a fact that he has done immensely good stuff in Africa, when many MANY other people have done zip. For that alone, he has my admiration.

I meant to prove the point that there are hot buttons all around. I also have them. Pastor Warren just hit one of Hitchens'. I want them then to do what you are saying, which is to let all sides speak, find the common ground, forego trying to convert others (but if you do, it's not terrible)... I agree also with what you've said about Pastor Warren's and other religious groups' work in Africa.

118 hazzyday  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:19:23pm

If you go back to spiritual publications in the first half of the 20th century. A lot of the content there is of an intolerant nature. Written by the minds of men who were thinking they were speaking for God. But their mundane words often would not even hold up for a few decades. Some of them have great glimpses of mankind on one page and fall short on the next.

In the 21st century, a lot of the Yecr's in Islam and in Christianity need their leaders to move them to a new reformation of their religions.

An atheist is just someone who is afraid to test the proposition that there is a God. Hiding behind a purely intellectual lens in analyzing life does a disservice to the rest of humanity. It's a self centered and selfish approach to living. The same can be said of the "young earther's" who hide from reason. The majority of the atheist's I meet just have a contraian nature. Their rejection of the pursuit of divinity is usually based on some childhood interpretation they are afraid to look at. Analysis of anything from the bottom up will make the view of God distant.

On the back of the dollar bill. The pyramid represents what an atheist can achieve at maximum effort. The capped pyramid represents what everyone else can achieve.

119 EmmmieG  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:29:20pm

re: #105 capitalist piglet

I'm trying to work out a short answer to this, and I'm running up against the fact that LDS beliefs on the afterlife are actually different, somewhat, than traditional Christian beliefs.

Hell is where people who do not repent of their sins through the grace of Jesus Christ go to pay for their sins. It's not actually a permanent destination. Christ is our judge, so I don't feel I'm authorized to say any one person is going to hell, as I cannot see into anyone's heart and mind. (Although, in some cases, it's an easy guess.)

I hope this gives a concise answer, because I'm guessing nobody really wants to have a long discussion about LDS beliefs. If you do: mormon.org

120 EmmmieG  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:34:07pm

re: #107 reine.de.tout

I knew about Catholic Charities. The LDS church worked with CC (and still sometimes does) for years. CC had a great organization that the church trusted.

121 Opinionated  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:34:27pm

When I balance some people who insist they will be there, and some people they insist will not, the destination hardly sounds like anything I would call Heaven.

122 capitalist piglet  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:35:41pm

re: #119 EmmmieG

Thank you, EmmmieG.

123 Maui Girl  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:42:26pm

I don't see what all the hub-bub is about Obamessiah's choice of pastor is for the inaugeration. BOH has probably only known two pastors in his entire life, Wright and Warren. Gee, which to choose......

124 debutaunt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:43:38pm

re: #90 NoSubmission

I've been mulling this for the last 5 minutes and I'm stumped. Atheists would likely not like anyone praying, they would probably prefer incense and chanting.

Trying to imagine Killgore chanting!

125 Timbre  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:51:13pm

re: #88 EmmmieG

More right than left--especially on the cosmological presuppositions.

126 kiwiviv  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 2:56:03pm

I haven't read all the comments, but does it even matter that Warren gives 90% of his income away...and he has done more for the poor and sick in the world than Hitchens could even dream about.

I mean...how "perfect according to the almighty Hitchens" do you have to be in order to pray? Warren knows he is not perfect, and that he does not hold the views of everyone on every subject, but he is a whole lot more open and unifying than Hitchens has been - in spite of his "grand intellect" and pseudo wisdom.

127 Timbre  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:03:41pm

re: #126 kiwiviv

I've read much of "god is not great." It may not be scientific fact, but I personally would not call it "pesudo wisdom."

128 Mr Spiffy  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:08:50pm

re: #11 Nevergiveup

I'll bring the scotch.

better bring two bottles; heard the gatekeeper likes to tipple every now and then.

129 Empire1  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:10:14pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Portland got slammed pretty good too. The fountain in my pond has turned into a 6 ft tall block of ice.

It may have smaller company here in Delaware over the next couple of days. Supposed to get down to 17 tonight, not over 32 tomorrow, and 14 tomorrow night. My fountain only has about a 2-foot spout above the water surface, though. Got any pictures of yours?

130 Mr Spiffy  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:12:09pm

re: #16 Nevergiveup

I better bring a shit load of ice I guess?

how many icebergs in a shitload?
/iceberg--isn't that Jewish?
//insta-morph to global warming thread

131 Mr Spiffy  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:13:42pm

re: #19 Killian Bundy

Don't forget the entertainment, Melissa Etheridge.

/WTF was she doing there?

Not the speakers definitely

132 Mr Spiffy  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:15:50pm

re: #30 Nevergiveup

Well he might now. If I am not mistaken Said has gone to visit Allah STAN?

fixed that

133 Semi Cartman  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:18:19pm

re: #106 pat

I find Hitchens insufferable.


Yep, but a very good essayist. It doesn't take the reader all day to get thoroughly wrenched. Just a few concise paragraphs.

134 LesLein  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:21:12pm

"This quite simply cannot stand. Is it possible that Obama did not know the ideological background of his latest pastor? The thought seems plausible when one recalls the way in which he tolerated the odious Jeremiah Wright. Or is it possible that he does know the background of racism and superstition and sectarianism but thinks (as with Wright) that it might be politically useful in attracting a certain constituency? Either of these choices is pretty awful to contemplate." -- Hitchens (E.A.)

It's the latter. Obama is planning his 2012 campaign. Evangelicals are a GOP constituency and the last two election cycles the Dems have quietly reached out to them. For example, they now recruit pro-life congressional candidates if they're in pro-life districts and are otherwise acceptable. The GOP should use a similar strategy for pro-choice districts.

135 Miles Smit  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:23:08pm

A discussion of Warren's merits is certainly reasonable, but I don't think Hitchens, who has rather a bugaboo about religion, speaks for the mainstream.

136 LesLein  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:26:41pm

Hitchens is a socialists and hates all religion. He wrote a book attacking Mother Theresa of all people.

Sometimes I wonder what he'd write if the terrorists were acting in the name of Marxism rather than jihad.

137 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:34:37pm

re: #136 LesLein

Hitchens is a socialists and hates all religion. He wrote a book attacking Mother Theresa of all people.

Sometimes I wonder what he'd write if the terrorists were acting in the name of Marxism rather than jihad.

Hitchens became disillusioned with the Left over their willingness to excuse tyranny and genocide, if they were perpetrated by those whom they considered to be political allies.

138 Throbert McGee  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:37:50pm

re: #8 Alouette

I mean like, so freaking what? Why should I or any other non-Christian give a poop if Rick Warren (or Nihad Awad, or Fred Phelps) thinks we can "expect to be admitted to paradise."

Word.

I love it when self-professed non-believers get their knickers in a knot because someone else says they'll be excluded from a heavenly paradise that they don't even believe in.

If Rick Warren wants to tell himself that I'm going to hell because I reject the notion that Jesus of Nazareth was the earthly incarnation of God, or because of my tendency to think of other men's penises as a delicious snack food, that's just another item on the long list of things that neither break my arm nor pick my pocket, as Mr. Jefferson put it.

139 Throbert McGee  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:44:16pm

re: #51 amphibian

That's not the same Criswell who was in "Plan 9 from Outer Space", is it? You know, future-events-are-going-to-affect-us-all-in-the-fu ture Criswell?

LOL! That was my first thought, too.

140 Dayenu  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:51:45pm

Man, you're ALL wrong!

Everyone goes to hell, except for those people who accept that Allah is god, and Muhammad is his prophet, and aids Allah's war by murdering a bunch of infidels! Those are the only ones who get to paradise! Shouldn't Obama know this? And Hitchens? And the preacher.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Like I need to point it out. Anyone who is such a twit as to believe that everyone who doesn't belong to his religion is going to be eternally punished is a freaking fool. Sorry. But to me, if that's how G-d operates, than he's no better than the liberals mentioned above who want to reward and punish everyone based on birth. If some aborigine bushman who lives and dies without meeting a Christian or hearing of Jesus goes to Hell, then Heaven isn't worth going to. If the Jewish victims of the Nazis are going to Hell, while their Christian murderers (who conveniently repent after the war) go to Heaven, then Heaven isn't worth going to.

Yeah, I'm Jewish. Jewish view of the afterlife? Trust G-d. It's not your job to worry about it in this world. Do Mitzvot and act justly. If you're a gentile, follow the seven laws of Noah, and act justly. It isn't "accept Moses or burn eternally!"

I like that Hitchens is against the Jihadists, but he was a damn fool to pin his hopes on Obama. Now we all have to live with this wet blanket in charge.

141 Throbert McGee  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:51:59pm

re: #118 hazzyday

Hiding behind a purely intellectual lens in analyzing life does a disservice to the rest of humanity. It's a self centered and selfish approach to living.

That is unalloyed grade-A jive.

Do please elaborate on exactly how an atheist's atheism "does a disservice" to the rest of humanity?

142 nanook  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:56:42pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

Little late to contemplate it now, Chris.

Never too late to contemplate and remind ourselves of the political opportunism of PEBO. I'm thinking this will be just one of many opportunities for such contemplation over the next 4 years.

143 restitutor orbis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:56:55pm
In the opinion of this learned fellow, even though Mitt Romney “talks about Jesus as his lord and savior, he is not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity.”

Funny, the Purpose-Driven douchebags usually say the same thing about Catholics.

It gets tiring trying to enighten them.

144 Grandma  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 3:58:33pm

Now I truly know why I only commit to a personal spirituality with a Higher Power, and it is an individual thing. I don’t need some religion to “bless” my relationship with my Almighty Creator; He and I get along just fine without all that. If these religions feel the necessity to be inclusive of others or exclusive of others based upon some dogma, I really don’t need to join up with all that. And I’m okay if others feel the need to do that; no judgement on my part, just a difference in methods that I can accept for the most part. I’ve never understood why our Presidents are required to have some religion. I’ve never understood the bashing that goes on with any of them if they didn’t adhere to a “correct” one. I guess I’d never be President because I don’t have one, don’t want one, and do not confuse religion with godliness. Amen.

So now there’s some big hoopla about this guy Rick Warren. I’m sure he aspires to be a decent person. And an Invocation is a petition for help, authority and justification, usually from a Higher Being. That’s nice. Personally, I don’t agree with his views, but don’t really want them placed in front of me saying “try it, you’ll like it”. So if the Inauguration is televised, my remote still works and I can watch the weather station during that part of it.

I am guilty of discrimination, but for all the correct reasons. I distance myself from those of low character and values. I disconnect myself from those who would steal, murder, and destroy that which has made most of the decent people in this world fearful. I detach myself from those who would extort, intimidate and demolish resources from those who so many in our world view as ethical, decent, and unselfish. And I remove myself from others who would tell me that their's and their beliefs are the only way.

My discrimination does not lend itself to some particular “group”, unless that “group” has an agenda of “Hooray for me and the Hell with You”. So thanks for entertaining Grandma on this chilly Carolina evening, and if I am not able to do it again, I wish all the lizards a happy Christmas or Chanukah season, whatever your leanings are. Just have a good time with family and friends.

145 debutaunt  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:04:56pm

re: #136 LesLein

Hitchens is a socialists and hates all religion. He wrote a book attacking Mother Theresa of all people.

Sometimes I wonder what he'd write if the terrorists were acting in the name of Marxism rather than jihad.

What problem did he have with Mother Teresa?

146 Joan  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:13:23pm

I am sick to death of public professions of piety. It doesn't matter what you believe, or what you think, or what your feel, or what you intended, it only matters what you have done. Actions speak louder than words and tell the only story worth hearing. Who is Pastor Warren to tell a Jewish lady she won't go to Heaven? Heaven is bigger than he is, and he is not the Great Decider. Makes me glad I'm an idol-worshiping RC.

147 nanook  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:13:54pm

re: #65 avanti

True, but we can make money doing post rapture pet care

Rapture Pet care..

LMFAO.... That is the greatest scam I've ever seen. I've just sent a link to a bunch of friends. Thanks! You've wiped away all my winter blues for tonight.

148 Joan  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:16:35pm

re: #145 debutaunt

What problem did he have with Mother Teresa?

She didn't live up to her own standards. That makes her a hypocrite and failure, unlike the estimable Mr. Hitchens, who would never set such standards, or be such a fool as to strive towards a nonexistent Heaven serving a nonexistent Deity. Foolish old woman.
/she lived in foolishness serving those who are perishing

149 wiles  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:18:01pm

Jesus, if it weren't for support from those who hold the 'crack-brained idea of “dispensationalist premillennialism,”' Hitchens may never have gotten the war in the Middle East (with more surely to come) that he so desperately gets off on.

Much as I love him, Hitchens is still pretty much a snot-nosed socialist who's yet to be mugged by reality.

150 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:18:46pm

re: #145 debutaunt

What problem did he have with Mother Teresa?

Here is what he had to say about that, in his own words:

[Link: www.slate.com...]

151 JacksonTn  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:23:44pm

re: #148 Joan

She didn't live up to her own standards. That makes her a hypocrite and failure, unlike the estimable Mr. Hitchens, who would never set such standards, or be such a fool as to strive towards a nonexistent Heaven serving a nonexistent Deity. Foolish old woman.
/she lived in foolishness serving those who are perishing

Here is an interview of Hitchens where he talks about why he is suspicious of Mother Teresa ...Hitchens is a piece of crap ...

[Link: www.secularhumanism.org...]

152 Joan  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:26:17pm

re: #133 Semi Cartman

Yep, but a very good essayist. It doesn't take the reader all day to get thoroughly wrenched. Just a few concise paragraphs.

I always enjoy Hitchens.

He's wrong a lot, of course, but a brilliant polemicist. Now, as to proving him wrong--someone else will have to tend to that, 'caus I'm escairt of 'im.

153 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:38:30pm

Christopher Hitchens needs to read this book

154 winston06  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:43:22pm

C Hitchens is a hypocrite.

155 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:47:19pm

re: #153 A Kiwi Infidel

Christopher Hitchens needs to read this book

Your solution is to read a Genesis Literalist creationist propaganda screed?

The title of the second chapter, Banana In Hand, told me all I need to know about this book:

Not to mention that the foreword is written by Kent Hovind:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

156 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 4:55:54pm

re: #155 Salamantis

Your choice.

157 Filala  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 5:00:07pm

re: #43 jwb7605

I remember hearing "The Famous Criswell" so long ago, I feel like I just stepped into a time machine. This sure brings back memories, LOL

158 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 5:02:44pm

Oh; although Kent Hovind, whjo is from my hometown, is currently serving a ten year sentence for tax evasion, he manages to maintain a simply hilarious website:

[Link: www.drdino.com...]

Just check the links on that page! GAAHHH!

[Link: www.bibleinschools.net...]

[Link: www.textbookreviews.org...]

[Link: www.crsc.org...]
(yep, the proverbial and dreaded Disco Institute Center for Science and Culture)

[Link: www.chick.com...]
(yep, THAT Jack Chick)

[Link: www.creationresearch.net...]

[Link: www.icr.org...]
(the infamous Institute for Creation Research)

[Link: www.creationscience.com...]

[Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]
(the equally infamous Answers In Genesis)

[Link: www.creationtruth.com...]

[Link: www.creationevidence.org...]

[Link: www.genesispark.org...]

[Link: www.evolution-facts.org...]

[Link: www.iconsofevolution.com...]

This link collection is the loony motherlode! And it gets even worse!

[Link: www.reachingcatholics.org...]
(I gotta cut and paste the description of this one...)
Reaching Catholics For Christ is an association of ministries and individuals having a zeal to share the truth of biblical salvation with Roman Catholics.

And let's not forget the Mormons...
[Link: www.mormonconspiracy.com...]

[Link: www.rae.org...]

Geez, this link site is incredible! I could go on and on...

159 LynnfromNZ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 5:06:55pm

Whenever self-proclaimed atheists try to discuss Christian theological beliefs they inevitably sound as stupid as celibates giving advice on sex. I admire Hitchens' work when he's on a subject he knows something about, but he does show himself dreadfully uninformed here.

160 LGoPs  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 5:07:29pm

The thing I have to say about Hitchens is that even though he is an avowed leftist.....at least he is not a hateful one. He has a wonderful mastery of the language and even though I disagree with most of his views, I do believe he argues from a good faith standpoint - unlike most of his contemporaries......

161 punkindrublic  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 6:09:35pm

Nut cases. The whole lot of 'em, and far too serious in their push to "learn them thar heathens".

162 kynna  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 7:53:26pm

Christie Hitchens is a pain. And I have to agree, it's always mind-boggling when an atheist thinks to explain Christianity to the Christian masses. He does write well, but so does Andrew Sullivan. And like Andy, he gets quite emotional about things that he really should just shrug at.

What if Obama just liked Rick Warren when he met him? Thought he was a nice guy? What if he thinks 'hey, he'd probably do a pretty good prayer.' The president-elect sat in a racist, conspiracy theorist, anti-American church for 20 years and never noticed the theme. What does he care about message?

I'm like others on this thread. I won't be watching the inauguration so I won't be bothered one little bit.

However, I know a guy who would do a wonderful prayer. Sadly, he's a gay pastor who has sued his state for the right to marry his partner so ... yeah, that's not going to work.

163 justadot  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 8:08:54pm

I respect Hitchens, but some of these complaints are pathetic:

This quite simply cannot stand. Is it possible that Obama did not know the ideological background of his latest pastor? The thought seems plausible when one recalls the way in which he tolerated the odious Jeremiah Wright. Or is it possible that he does know the background of racism and superstition and sectarianism but thinks (as with Wright) that it might be politically useful in attracting a certain constituency? Either of these choices is pretty awful to contemplate.

So Hitch is still wondering at this late date whether
1) Obama is oblivious but probably well-meaning, or
2) Obama's a hypocrite willing to do whatever is politically expedient. In other words, Clintonesque.

Hitch knew enough to ponder this way back on March 24 when he wrote about Wright, well before the election. And I think I know which way he was leaning. After listing (and ridiculing) some of Gov. Palin's beliefs in his Sept. 8 Slate piece, he says

I cannot wait to see Obama and Biden explain how this isn't the case or how it's much worse than, and quite different from, Obama's own raving and ranting pastor in Chicago or Biden's lifelong allegiance to the most anti-"choice" church on the planet. The difference, if there is one, is that Palin is probably sincere whereas the Democratic team is almost certainly hypocritical.

Knowing all this, Hitch still endorsed the hypocrite and trashed the sincere. I expected him to appreciate the difference between the two.

He shouldn't be surprised now.

164 Boxy_brown  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 8:17:13pm

re: #103 Catttt

re: #102 Boxy_brown


Hitchens needs to lighten up.

No he doesn't. That's not his job.

His job? Does he put "pompous ass" on his tax returns? I actually enjoy Hitchens but I tend not to care for zealots in any religion... including atheism. Bottom line: if he needs to be a pest because it's his "job" he doesn't need to be a smug one.

165 monumentlizard  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 8:42:08pm

Imagine that ... one of the nation's foremost atheists has a problem with a pastor and his religious doctrines.

166 Alan K. Henderson  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 8:49:16pm
In the opinion of this learned fellow, even though Mitt Romney “talks about Jesus as his lord and savior, he is not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity.”

Trinitarians say that non-Trinitarians aren't Christians, and some non-Trinitarians level the same accusation against Trinitarians. One of them is right. Christ is either divine or he isn't. That's not some minor side issue where there is room for disagreement - you cannot be called a follower of someone if you are deluded about that someone's central nature.

167 LynnfromNZ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 9:10:53pm

re: #165 monumentlizard

No kidding. Chris Hitchens' thoughts on Christianity and Christians have all the value of Stevie Wonder's opinions on the Mona Lisa.

168 LynnfromNZ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 9:11:35pm

re: #166 Alan K. Henderson

Give me an example of a non-Trinitarian Christian group who would say Trinitarians aren't Christians. Are you thinking of the Orthodox confessions?

169 eclectic infidel  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 9:49:07pm

re: #1 zombie

Maybe the Warren pick will knock some sense back into Hitchens.

No Zombie. I think Hitchens is point on. Obama chose a religious kook and Hitchens called an ace an ace. I'm suprised you think that Warren has any credibility as a rational person.

170 LynnfromNZ  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 9:57:51pm

re: #103 Catttt

Hitchens's job is to lecture people whose beliefs he loudly professes are complete crap on the proper way to hold those beliefs?

171 Miggie  Sun, Dec 21, 2008 11:41:18pm

Here is a Malcom Gladwell article on Rick Warren from the New Yorker. It is a couple of years old but he writes about the kind of guy Warren is and how he built his mega-(20,000 member) church. As always, Gladwell does a pretty good job of explaining why things are as they are and how they came to be that way.

[Link: www.gladwell.com...]Rick Warren's Church

172 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 2:38:41am
169 eclectic infidel

re: #1 zombie

Maybe the Warren pick will knock some sense back into Hitchens.

No Zombie. I think Hitchens is point on. Obama chose a religious kook and Hitchens called an ace an ace. I'm suprised you think that Warren has any credibility as a rational person.

No no no, I guess I wasn't clear. I thought it was obvious in the context, but just to clarify -- what I meant was:

Maybe the fact that Obama chose the creepy egomaniacal Warren will knock some sense back into Hitchens, who made the ridiculous blunder of endorsing Obama during the election, if you remember. The presence of Warren should serve to convince Hitchens that Obama was a bad choice after all.

Sorry to have written that comment so vaguely that you came to the exact opposite conclusion of what I meant.

173 carray  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 3:31:58am

Amazing how people always want Christians to water down Christianity just so people's feelings won't be hurt. To paraphrase Sir Thomas More, and what if those of the hurt feelings are going to hell? Should we put water in our mouths to talk and go with them for companionship sake? Frankly, we can't, even if we wanted to. Take our worldly goods, take our lives, but the one thing that we cannot compromise on (hurt feelings of others or not) is what the Word says. It's not the Word according to Oprah but the Word of God. So, there we are, we can do no other.

174 Victory Gin For All  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 5:51:41am

I would never have guessed that Hitchens was a leftist. I mean, giving Bill Mahr's audience the finger, writing an essay about women not being funny by nature, supporting the Iraq War, drinking scotch and smoking cigarettes during interviews. I actually have a strong affection for the guy.

His debates against D'Souza and Prager are very thought provoking and entertaining and have caused me to question everything regarding my religion (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

175 Victory Gin For All  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 6:03:51am

re: #171 Miggie

Here is a Malcom Gladwell article on Rick Warren from the New Yorker. It is a couple of years old but he writes about the kind of guy Warren is and how he built his mega-(20,000 member) church.

When I found out that the pastor of our little Calvary Chapel (3000 members) lives in a million dollar home, I could only guess that he was probably one of the richest men in church on any given Sunday. That information wasn't available to church members. Only "the board" knew.

It started souring me, especially when coupled with constant calls for volunteers to come help landscape his business, the admonishions to pay our taxes and not complain, and the fact that he was grooming his idiot son to take over the reins (I loved it when this 25 year old single recent seminar graduate would preach sermons on marriage, what a laugh).

I'd be happy never setting foot in a church again, but the wife disagrees so I go and think about the next guitar I'm going to build.

176 Dadmin  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 6:31:02am

Mr. Hitchens may find consolation at Harvard University. He can get churchified and forgive his own sins and and all the other worshipful things that atheists have ever longed for to fill that hole in their soul and blot out their finitude.

177 Gutneshama  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 8:55:49am

As a Jew, I pray directly to G-d. I am a grown-up and do not need an intermediary between Him and me. My behaviour on this earth determines whether or not my soul will go to heaven or hell, regardless of which G-d I worship (or don't worship). It is incredible arrogance and ignorance to say that only X and Y are getting into heaven and no one else.

178 NelsFree  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 11:02:49am

?re: #177 Gutneshama

I have seen several comments about, "Who does Rick Warren think he is, telling someone they won't go to Heaven!?"

Allow me to quote the Bible, New Testament, Gospel of John, Chapter 3, verse 3: "Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again'." Rick Warren is simply following the teachings of Jesus Christ. This particular quote was from His conversation with Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Ruling Council.
I don't think it is arrogant to believe you have Salvation and others do not. It is arrogant to think that, because of your Salvation, you are better than others. As far as ignorance, if you have not read the Bible, how do you know if you have Salvation?

Gut, I replied to your post because it was closest. I respect your right to practise your faith as you see fit, as long as it does not infringe on any one else's right to religious freedom. God Bless America!

179 heyou  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 11:23:18am

re: #173 carray

that's the same mindset they used when burning witches and other "heretics"
hey burn their bodies save their souls

180 heyou  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 11:33:09am

re: #178 NelsFree

I don't get it, if Jesus is G-d then Jews already believe in G-d so why would we go to hell? It's like without that Jesus part of "the triune" your toast. It's as if merely believing in G-d, obeying G-d and repenting to G-d is nothing. NO wonder there's so many atheists.

181 Charles  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:56:26pm

re: #173 carray

Amazing how people always want Christians to water down Christianity just so people's feelings won't be hurt. To paraphrase Sir Thomas More, and what if those of the hurt feelings are going to hell?

Sir Thomas More is also famous, by the way, for burning Lutherans at the stake for "heresy," and for imprisoning hundreds more.

Ah, the good old days.

182 Alan K. Henderson  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 10:39:12pm

re: #168 LynnfromNZ

Give me an example of a non-Trinitarian Christian group who would say Trinitarians aren't Christians.

Mormonism and the Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses). Both believe that Jesus was a created being - the literal offspring of God (LDS), physical manifestation of the Archangel Michael (JW).

Mormonism strays from Trinitarian thought even further than the JW's do, with the radical claim that God was once mortal, "once a man like us [who] dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46, cited by this official LDS source).

Prior to the LDS founding, Joseph Smith claimed that the angel Moroni proclaimed that all nominally Christian churches had fallen into apostasy, that they were not truly Christian. JW's level the same accusation against "Christendom" (non-Watchtower nominally Christian churches).

I happen to side with the Trinitarians.

Are you thinking of the Orthodox confessions?

I thought the Orthodox churches were all Trinitarian.

183 LynnfromNZ  Tue, Dec 23, 2008 1:50:52am

re: #182 Alan K. Henderson

Yes, Christology is always the dividing line between historic confessional Christianity and others. Obviously if one takes the time to actually read what Mormons, JWs and the Trinitarian confessions say, they wouldn't make the ignorant mistakes Hitchens does. But as I've said elsewhere, I have no idea where an atheist gets off telling Christians how to go about their doctrine.

The Orthodox do not believe that the Holy Spirit is as fully a member of the Trinity as the Roman Catholic and Protestants do. This is why they make the sign of the cross with two fingers, while the Catholics use three. It was the basis for the homoiousias and homoousias controversy.

184 LynnfromNZ  Tue, Dec 23, 2008 1:52:16am

re: #178 NelsFree

It has always amazed me, those who say "Hey I don't know what's right or wrong when it comes to salvation, but I do know that YOU are WRONG!"

185 Alan K. Henderson  Tue, Dec 23, 2008 8:36:22am

re: #183 LynnfromNZ

The Orthodox Church of America says the Holy Spirit is an eternal being:

One wrong doctrine is that the Father alone is God and that the Son and the Holy Spirit are creatures, made "from nothing" like angels, men and the world. The Church answers that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not creatures, but are uncreated and divine with the Father, and they act with the Father in the divine act of creation of all that exists.

Orthodox Wiki touches on the homoiousios (similar essence) vs. homoousios (same essence) controversy. It was the Arians, not the Orthodox, who chose the word that undermined Trinitarian doctrine.

Elsewhere, Orthodox Wiki states: "All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence (homoousios) and coeternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist."


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