Bailed-Out Bank Execs Got Multi-Million Dollar Rewards

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Business • Mon Dec 22, 2008 at 12:16 pm PST • Views: 249

Nice work if you can get it: AP study finds $1.6B went to bailed-out bank execs.

Banks that have their hands out in Washington this year were handing out multimillion-dollar rewards to their executives last year.

The 116 banks that so far have received taxpayer dollars to boost them through the economic crisis gave their top tier of executives nearly $1.6 billion in salaries, bonuses and other benefits in 2007, an Associated Press analysis found.

That amount, spread among the 600 highest paid bank executives, would cover the bailout money given to 53 of the banks that have shared the $188 billion that Washington has doled out in rescue packages so far.

Some banks trimmed their executive compensation in the face of faltering performance that foreshadowed the current economic crisis, but they still granted multimillion-dollar packages. Benefits included cash bonuses, stock options, personal use of company jets and chauffeurs, home security, country club memberships and professional money management, the AP review of federal securities documents found.

UPDATE at 12/22/08 12:32:21 pm:

Meanwhile, the bailed-out banks are “declining” to account for the money they’re receiving.

WASHINGTON – It’s something any bank would demand to know before handing out a loan: Where’s the money going?

But after receiving billions in aid from U.S. taxpayers, the nation’s largest banks say they can’t track exactly how they’re spending the money or they simply refuse to discuss it.

“We’ve lent some of it. We’ve not lent some of it. We’ve not given any accounting of, ‘Here’s how we’re doing it,’” said Thomas Kelly, a spokesman for JPMorgan Chase, which received $25 billion in emergency bailout money. “We have not disclosed that to the public. We’re declining to.”

The Associated Press contacted 21 banks that received at least $1 billion in government money and asked four questions: How much has been spent? What was it spent on? How much is being held in savings, and what’s the plan for the rest?

None of the banks provided specific answers.

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363 comments

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1 Chicken Kiev  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:17:10pm

NOT FAIR.

2 MarineGrunt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:17:54pm

Where's my cut

3 faraway  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:17:56pm

ahh... we need more Socialism to clear out these evil capitalist pigs.

/

4 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:18:10pm
5 LilyGecko  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:18:28pm

*Head Bonk*

6 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:18:31pm

What? You thought they took the money to save their companies?

7 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:18:34pm

Thieves.

Meanwhile, there is no design work in the office here.

8 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:18:44pm

Come on, sheeple. SOMEone had to put in the hard work kneepad time ...hell, I can't even justify this even in /sarc mode. I'm getting old.

9 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:18:48pm

re: #4 buzzsawmonkey

You can't get the highest degree of failure if you're not willing to pay top dollar.

You work part time for the UAW don't you?

10 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:19:24pm

How.Very.Sad.

11 nyc redneck  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:19:35pm

hogs at the trough. a feeding frenzy on our money.
vulgar and disgusting.

12 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:19:45pm

re: #2 MarineGrunt

Where's my cut

For us, it is not so much a "cut" as a "bleeder".

13 LilyGecko  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:20:10pm

re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just because times are hard...gosh, why should they have to give up their bonuses?

14 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:20:39pm
15 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:20:58pm
16 LudwigVanQuixote  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:21:02pm

Let's be clear, these are our tax dollars going to support starving execs who need their welfare money...

Let us be very fair in all ways. Both parties did not regulate where the money was going. Both parties dropped the ball. You can bet your bottom that members of both parties will benefit in back rooms from keeping scum like these execs happy.

This is the point where I get to thinking about public punishments.

18 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:21:44pm

Remember when I got caught in a riot on my first day in Denver, and was in a mass of anarchists who were surrounded by police for hours and hours, and finally escaped when they let some of us go?

Well, the ACLU claimed the police had acted "inappropriately" during the incident, but just today, the Denver police have been cleared of all wrongdoing:

An independent Denver police monitor said officers did nothing wrong during mass arrests on the first day of the Democratic National Convention.

Monitor Richard Rosenthal said Monday there's no evidence to support a complaint alleging officers lied about whether they gave an order to disperse before arresting more than 100 people.

The American Civil Liberties Union complaint also contended a police officer pretending to be a protester created a tense atmosphere when he confronted another officer. Rosenthal said the undercover officer acted appropriately.

Which is as it should be: despite the fact that I was one of the people caught up in the craziness, despite not really being one of the rioters, I feel the police did nothing wrong. The anarchists were way out of control, and in situations like that, the police need to stop the riot first, then sort out who deserves arresting, later.

19 nyc redneck  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:06pm

these greedy s.o.b.'s are really out of control. they have no shame.
they did this knowing the public would find out.
it truly is a 'fck-you' to us, the hard working american public.

20 LilyGecko  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:11pm

re: #17 Ojoe

Meanwhile, the current bank managers do not know where the bailout money has gone.

I think one word can sum it up: "Spit."

21 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:24pm

"We cannot tell exactly where the money went, but we can assure you it went to good use" bank spokesman Rich Bastard said, as he boarded the brand-new Lear Jet.

22 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:25pm

re: #17 Ojoe

Meanwhile, the current bank managers do not know where the bailout money has gone.

And Congress wonders why their approval ratings are in the single digits. For all their stupidity (they DID elect the Grand Nothing, after all), the American people aren't complete idiots. They do have a sense of when they're being had, particularly when it involves their pocketbook.

23 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:41pm

re: #17 Ojoe

Meanwhile, the current bank managers do not know where the bailout money has gone.

Didnt yasser arafart say something similar regarding the $300,000,000 in foreign aid?

24 yochanan  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:53pm

this crap plays right into the had of the leftist scum DUH

THIS REMINDS ME OF WHEN LENIN SAID THE CAPITALIST WOULD SELL THE ROPE IN THE MORNING FOR A PROFIT THAT THE COMMIE WILL HANG HIM IN THE EVEN WITH.

25 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:22:59pm
26 faraway  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:23:04pm

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

27 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:23:09pm

(And no, I was not the undercover officer. I was a member of the "press," doncha know!)

28 The Hoopster  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:23:11pm

re: #18 zombie

You did a great job in Denver Zom.

29 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:23:17pm

I hope all the stock options they got are as worthless as mine now are!

Oh - and can I have a bail out, please, as well, also?
I'll be very happy with half a million smackeroonies ...

30 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:23:33pm

All this malfeasance is going to net us a great depression I am afraid.

31 keyword  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:23:33pm

Fucking bastards!

32 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:24:20pm

re: #23 A Kiwi Infidel

Didnt yasser arafart say something similar regarding the $300,000,000 in foreign aid?

Hey, I got email from Suha Arafat asking to help recover that money. Apparently, it somehow ended up in Nigeria.
(I did get a version of the Nigerian email scam purporting to be from Ms. Arafish)

33 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:24:27pm

Furnace guys are still working, and I'm still freezin' my li'l tushie off.

34 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:24:37pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

What we're saying is that these companies should cut their OWN BENEFITS PACKAGES FIRST in order to eliminate debt. Paying a salary is one thing; paying exorbitant benefits in the face of "the worst financial crisis evar" is another.

35 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:24:43pm

re: #17 Ojoe

Meanwhile, the current bank managers do not know where the bailout money has gone.

I love it. For the banks, the money was handed over, no questions asked, no restrictions applied. For anyone else, there are questions many, and restrictions aplenty.

Worst Congress Ever.

36 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:24:48pm

re: #15 Iron FistNo shit!
This just turned a great lunch into ...GAS!
M(*&^* F*&^%^&!
I'd love to bump into one of these assholes and [deleted],[deleted] right in the [deleted]!
On the bright side...My Mrs's asked me to sign her up for a concealment course!
I'm confused!

37 yochanan  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:25:02pm

re: #18 zombie

LOOK at the anarchist riots in Greece if the police had used a few of them to decorate a lamp post or two the riot would have stopped/

38 doriangrey  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:25:26pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

No... You think about it. Nobody who destroys the company they work for should get paid for destroying that company. And they damned well shouldn't get paid with MY MONEY.

39 mikalm  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:25:27pm

re: #18 zombie

Hey Zom, did you get my "Ultimate Berkeley Moonbat" email? Might be a good post for the Zomblog...

40 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:25:34pm

re: #30 Ojoe

All this malfeasance is going to net us a great depression I am afraid.

Well, if it's any consolation, Barack Obama seems to have the same understanding of economics as Franklin Roosevelt.

41 1 US Sheeple  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:25:43pm

Now who did not know that this would happen? After the AIG execs got all their perks did we think that the bankers would not follow their example?
I don't know whether this has dawned on you folks, but this bailout was a Govt SCAM that Bush, the DIMOS, the RINOS and the socialists put in place to usher in the North American Union.
This will be coming our way just as soon as the dollar hits rock bottom and inflation roars out of control.
My bet is that this will come to fruition in the summer!

42 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:26:07pm

re: #35 Honorary Yooper

I curse them to hell because of their malfesance I have no work at the moment (architect).

43 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:26:20pm

re: #32 Kosh's Shadow

Hey, I got email from Suha Arafat asking to help recover that money. Apparently, it somehow ended up in Nigeria.
(I did get a version of the Nigerian email scam purporting to be from Ms. Arafish)

Oooohhh (shudder) if the 300 mill comes with Suha Arafart, its all yours my friend, and good luck with that.

44 mikalm  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:26:26pm

And as for the issue at hand:

This isn't capitalism or free enterprise. It's corporate welfare fraud and boardroom piracy. These thieves belong in prison.

45 doriangrey  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:26:46pm

re: #33 Alouette

Furnace guys are still working, and I'm still freezin' my li'l tushie off.

Hmmm, you going to be competing with Sharmuta for the bluest tush here? ;)

47 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:26:58pm

No one knows where all the money went. No one. The AP might have tracked some of it to the bank execs, but there's hundreds of billions that the federal government simply isn't showing its accounting for.

That's just flat out wrong.

48 cathypop  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:05pm

Well aint that sweet of them to think only of themselves.

49 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:06pm
50 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:07pm

Bailout Bank Bonuses are just Bogus.

If we paid these execs on a value added basis they would be losing money right now not claiming millions in unearned bonuses.

Then again if we paid people on a value added basis we couldn't afford soldiers, paramedics, grade school teachers and mothers.

51 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:17pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.


Let me think about what I'm saying...

SACK THE BASTARDS, EVERY EFFIN ONE OF THEM.

52 LilyGecko  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:22pm

re: #48 cathypop

Well aint that sweet of them to think only of themselves.

Christmas Spirit!

/

53 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:24pm

re: #26 faraway

I don't think commentators here sound like Marxists. I think they sound pissed off. Why should the clowns that got their institutions into a mess that required a taxpayer bailout even have a freakin' job, much less a bonus?

54 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:27:58pm
55 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:12pm

Someone's gotta feed the monkey.

56 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:21pm

re: #33 Alouette

Furnace guys are still working, and I'm still freezin' my li'l tushie off.

Stick either a hot-water-bottle udner your jumper - or a nice, gentle cat.
Both are guaranteed to warm you up!

57 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:40pm

BBL

58 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:46pm

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

Read this story, and you'll feel much warmer: A Pail of Air.

I read that story! Got it out of the school library 40 years ago!

59 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:47pm

That's what really pisses me off about these scumbags with their hands out for a bailout. They should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town on a rough cut rail. Personally, I advocate horsewhipping in these cases.

60 LilyGecko  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:49pm

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey


You're right. I'm warmer already.

61 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:52pm

Where else can run a Corp into the ground and be paid bonuses as if you were ...ah ...ah the messih?
What a country!*spit*

62 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:29:58pm

re: #37 yochanan

LOOK at the anarchist riots in Greece if the police had used a few of them to decorate a lamp post or two the riot would have stopped/

In SF on Saturday, there was a "solidarity riot" by anarchists in San Francisco who were "supporting" their fellow anarchists in Greece. The smashed up part of a mall -- in fact, the very same mall where I had previously recorded the "faux" soldiers "shooting" at people.

I agree, the police around here are way too lenient.

63 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:30:05pm

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

64 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:30:26pm

They learned from Jaimie Gorelick

65 subsailor68  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:30:31pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

I don't think it's about an outside group/agency setting limits. It's about perception and judgment. One would hope that these executives would have the intelligence to recognize that one of their main responsibilities is to restore confidence in the companies they lead.

Taking these kinds of perks, at this juncture, demonstrates a lack of judgment - regardless of how these perks came about.

66 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:31:05pm
67 yochanan  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:31:35pm

re: #62 zombie

now adays the only time anarchist ever get hung is after the revolution when the commies get rid of them.

68 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:31:41pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

It does, indirectly, have to do with the bailout. How could they afford to pay out all this money if they were in such desperate need of a bailout?

69 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:31:57pm

re: #39 mikalm

Hey Zom, did you get my "Ultimate Berkeley Moonbat" email? Might be a good post for the Zomblog...

I did get it, but I'm inundated with horrible financial paperwork and haven't answered an email in weeks. Way too busy. And I won't be making a zomblog posting anytime soon, for the same reason.

But rest assured I did get your email, and will respond eventually! I have over 600 unaswered emails backed up ahead of you, though!

70 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:15pm

re: #62 zombie

In SF on Saturday, there was a "solidarity riot" by anarchists in San Francisco who were "supporting" their fellow anarchists in Greece. The smashed up part of a mall -- in fact, the very same mall where I had previously recorded the "faux" soldiers "shooting" at people.

I agree, the police around here are way too lenient.


Not that they are given any choice...

71 looking closely  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:16pm

Why are we bailing these failed banks out again?

I don't get it.

72 joncelli  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:22pm

Sometimes the tyrants have the right idea when they make an example of a particularly recalcitrant member of society by taking him out and hanging him on a lamppost on the main road into town. Me, I'd settle for a moratorium on corporate welfare in order to apply some market discipline to these corporations that are better at manipulating the political system than making a buck for their shareholders.

73 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:29pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

For me personally, the point is these companies were paying out this money while on the precipice. This bail-out money is paying for last years' excess.

They'll make some nice change this year too.

Of course, only my opinion.

74 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:46pm

A lot of Lizard's imply that I am using hyperbole when suggesting we will have a civil war with in 20 years, but I don't think I am far off base.

The last time we through off a government, is was because of excessive use and abuse of public funds. This the only difference is that the government is on our own soil, but they are not our government.

They work for the plutocracy and they themselves are a kleptocracy.

If you think you can do something about this by a vote here or there, then you had better get that voting finger busy.

75 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:50pm

re: #52 LilyGecko

Yeah - they gotta so it for themselves, nobody else is loving them, or giving the presents, even.

76 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:32:52pm

re: #62 zombie

In SF on Saturday, there was a "solidarity riot" by anarchists in San Francisco who were "supporting" their fellow anarchists in Greece. The smashed up part of a mall -- in fact, the very same mall where I had previously recorded the "faux" soldiers "shooting" at people.

I agree, the police around here are way too lenient.

If someone has a business, his life and credit are sunk in it, his family depends on it, his employees depend on it. If the gov't will not protect it what can he do?

77 mikalm  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:33:02pm

re: #62 zombie

Yeah, I posted the story on the "Moonbats" links. What a pack of a**holes. And you're right -- if just one thick trustafarian skull had gotten cracked at that mall, the riot would have stopped dead.

78 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:33:04pm

re: #56 yma o hyd

Stick either a hot-water-bottle udner your jumper - or a nice, gentle cat.
Both are guaranteed to warm you up!

Fat guys work pretty well.

79 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:33:07pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

Agreed. I understand that we don't reward failure, but I think a lot of these stories are just versions of class envy - wanting people to be upset that executives make "too much."

80 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:33:50pm

re: #59 maddogg

That's what really pisses me off about these scumbags with their hands out for a bailout. They should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town on a rough cut rail. Personally, I advocate horsewhipping in these cases.

Well, you had better do it yourself, because those of us down here are not going to get any help for the government.

81 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:34:15pm

re: #69 zombie

Would be great to get a bunch of emails because people liked you. Not because they know you've got a small penis.

82 yochanan  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:34:48pm

re: #76 lifeofthemind

i heard were a very small bus. lady had her bus. smashed at this riot. which because it happened just before christmas could destroy her bus. boy do i hate anarchist scum.

83 winston06  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:35:11pm

The bailout was wrong to begin with...

84 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:35:21pm

The taxpayer is being looted & laughed at. First we were required to pay to provide services for people who were illegaly trespassing, now "Risk" taking capatalists.
Ford is saying that they do want bail out money, but would like a government line of credit. Wait, isn't that what banks do. Why did they get the bail out?

85 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:35:26pm

They should give back those bonus' and all the other money they have looted from the banks they have run into the ground. I always though a "bonus" was based on good performance. Apparently, these guys get a bonus no matter how poorly they do their jobs...

I own a small company. If we don't MAKE money, I do not get paid...they should join us here in the real world.

They rushed this bailout package through by scaring people into thinking the system would collapse...I guess the real reason was the greedy-ass bastards running these banks just wanted their loot faster...PATHETIC

86 joncelli  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:35:45pm

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wait -- how is it that the spammers know about the size of my John Thomas? How do they know I'm not hung like a porn star? Uh-ohhh...

87 Catttt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:35:57pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

That's really specious of you.

I work for a large, successful financial services company. Our management saw this coming. Because of that, our balance sheet is in the black (no debt), we have been cutting costs for at least a year - without letting anyone go - and we all got bonuses this year - smaller, but bonuses. Plus our top management get bonuses that are not outrageously high and don't party party party on the company dime. They work their way up to high management - we rarely hire top managers from outside.

In other words, we are conservative, thoughtful, proactive, and fair.

Compare and contrast with the financial services companies that made high-risk investments, racked up heavy debt, did not cut costs - on the contrary - they have been and continue to party like it's 1999.

Being fiscally conservative, while helping people make money, we are still in business and don't need a handout from the government.

88 kansas  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:36:09pm

It's all a Ponzi scheme anyway. Just get in on the next uptick and get out before Ponzi steals your dough.

89 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:36:21pm

re: #79 Silhouette

Agreed. I understand that we don't reward failure, but I think a lot of these stories are just versions of class envy - wanting people to be upset that executives make "too much."

Yep, and I wonder why the media are whipping up these stories. Hmm.
Gosh, ya think it's a prelude to "our savior Obama will be raising marginal income tax rates to umpty-ump percent, to punish all these evil rich people"? Naaah, couldn't be!

90 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:36:25pm

re: #83 winston06

The bailout was wrong to begin with...

I heard a whole lot of conservatives agreeing with it, right here on LGF. Do any Lizards still think it's a good thing?

91 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:36:50pm
92 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:36:58pm

Guys & Gals,

Allow me to play devil's advocate:

1. This was an AP report. How often has the AP reported news in an unbiased manner?

2. The report said the top 600 execs got $1.6B, but there is no point of comparison. What did these top 600 get in 2007? How much of the cash was earned in the first half of the year vs. the second half of the year?

3. Not all of the banks are part of the corruption. Wells Fargo, for example, reportedly did not want the bailout money. They took it to be raise confidence in the system. How is the compensation spread between the banks that f-ed up vs. the ones that did not f-up?

This is shoddy journalism, IMO. It gets people worked up by reporting biased statistics.

93 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:37:11pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I heard a whole lot of conservatives agreeing with it, right here on LGF. Do any Lizards still think it's a good thing?

Not NO, but HELL NO!

94 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:37:14pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

Thing is - were they incapable of projecting the earnings in the coming quarters?
If yes - then they are useless at their jobs and don't deserve such huge sums on salaries and bonuses.
If no - and they did project the coming crisis, but paid themselves such vast sums anyway, then they are without conscience.

In both cases, we're right to vilify them.

95 bulwrk  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:37:40pm

re: #26 faraway

Think about what you are saying here.


Benefits included cash bonuses, stock options, personal use of company jets and chauffeurs, home security, country club memberships and professional money management

Not on my dime, and aren't they supposed to be professional money managers?

96 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:37:53pm

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Penis?

Cactus?

97 mikalm  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:38:00pm

re: #85 Desert Dog

Amen, DD. The small firm I work for had an across-the-board belt-tightening this year because we've been hit by the downturn like everyone else, and the partners are ethical and sensible enough to cut back on the perks. Again, the bank execs in the story are just irresponsible looters who have no right to call themselves managers or leaders.

98 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:38:32pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I heard a whole lot of conservatives agreeing with it, right here on LGF. Do any Lizards still think it's a good thing?

I want to hear from Lizards who agreed with it, and still think the bailout was a good thing. Tell me why it's still a good thing?

99 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:38:57pm

re: #95 bulwrk

Think about what you are saying here.


Benefits included cash bonuses, stock options, personal use of company jets and chauffeurs, home security, country club memberships and professional money management

Not on my dime, and aren't they supposed to be professional money managers?

But they ARE. You and me take the hosing, not those bastards. Isn't that professional?

100 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:01pm

re: #96 Desert Dog

Cactus?

That is one prickly cactus.

101 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:03pm

I hate to sound crude, but this pisses me off!

102 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:10pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

Awesome point.

This is flipp'n AP reports! The AP still sucks. The only thing missing was a comment that the Iraq war is unpopular.

103 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:21pm

re: #78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fat guys work pretty well.

Under a jumper?

104 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:53pm

David J Schwartz, you magnificent bastard!

105 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:54pm

re: #79 Silhouette

Agreed. I understand that we don't reward failure, but I think a lot of these stories are just versions of class envy - wanting people to be upset that executives make "too much."

Yeah, but if an individual in financial trouble spends like a drunken sailor, that individual is forced into Chapter 11. These banks spend foolishly & simply tap the unwilling taxpayers.

106 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:39:56pm

Where's my hat tip?

[Link: seekingalpha.com...]

* Marshall Plan: $12.7 billion; inflation adjusted $115.3 billion
* Louisiana Purchase: $15 million; inflation adjusted $217 billion
* Race to the Moon: $36.4 billion; inflation adjusted $237 billion
* S&L Crisis: $153 billion; inflation adjusted $256 billion
* Korean War: $54 billion; inflation adjusted $454 billion
* The New Deal: $32 billion (est); inflation adjust $500 billion (est)
* Invasion of Iraq: $551 billion; Inflation adjusted $597 billion
* Vietnam War: $111 billion; inflation adjusted $698 billion
* NASA: $416.7 billion; inflation adjusted $851.2 billion

Data from James Bianco

That gives us a grand total of $3.92 trillion. I wouldn’t blink because we are going to pass that number with the bailout costs before you know it. Bianco reports that the only event that came close to the costs of the bailout up to this point is World War II. WWII cost $288 billion. Adjusting the numbers for inflation and we’re looking at $3.6 trillion. Still, if you add the cost of WWII and the rest of the above mentioned fiscal expenditures and it falls short of the $8.5 trillion number stated by SFGate.

Dear reader, all said and done, the bailout of the U.S. financial system will have cost more than two times the list of the greatest expenditures in the history of our nation. What folks don’t realize is that WE WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS. The costs will be years and possibly decades of economic stresses. Welcome to freaking Japan. Short government bonds anyone?

107 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:40:01pm

re: #92 DeafDog

2. The report said the top 600 execs got $1.6B, but there is no point of comparison. What did these top 600 get in 2007?

$1.6 billion. The report was for 2007

This is shoddy journalism, IMO. It gets people worked up by reporting biased statistics.

I think that is their goal, to get people worked up.

108 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:40:02pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

I rode both sides of the fence. Knew something had to be done, and knew that we had the ingenuity to completely fuck it up.

Don't recall standing up for it.

109 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:40:09pm

Why didn't they ask me? I would have driven the bank in to the ditch at half of that cost.

110 LudwigVanQuixote  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:40:10pm

re: #40 Honorary Yooper

Well, if it's any consolation, Barack Obama seems to have the same understanding of economics as Franklin Roosevelt.

Interestingly enough, Bush did exactly what Hoover did in bailing out the banks first while ignoring everything else. THose bank execs took the money fro themselves too. Also, ummm, FDR was the one who used keynes supply side economics - something much touted by none other than Reagan...

111 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:40:37pm

re: #103 yma o hyd

Under a jumper?

takes some work.

112 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:40:55pm

re: #102 DeafDog

Awesome point.

This is flipp'n AP reports! The AP still sucks. The only thing missing was a comment that the Iraq war is unpopular.

What industry do you work in? What do you do for a living? Can you stell us where you sit before you tell us where you stand?

113 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:41:01pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

I think the point of the story is that the banks that are getting the bail out are the very ones guilty of over-compensating their execs.

114 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:41:02pm

If 750000000 were drops of water it would be 8256 gallons of water.

There is 1.6 gallons in a toilet flush.

Thats around 5500 flushes.

115 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:41:31pm

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Would be great to get a bunch of emails because people liked you. Not because they know you've got a small penis.

Oh, I have a small penis too, need Viagra, Cialis and Xanax, am looking for Russian singles, need to help the Finance Minister of Sierra Leona cure his cancer by helping him smuggle out $20 billion in gold bullion...I get all those too. And most of my "personal" emails aren't from people who like me, but rather from people who want to kill me. Probably about a 60/40 kill-to-like ratio.

116 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:42:05pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Interestingly enough, Bush did exactly what Hoover did in bailing out the banks first while ignoring everything else. THose bank execs took the money fro themselves too. Also, ummm, FDR was the one who used keynes supply side economics - something much touted by none other than Reagan...

Spending your way out of a recession is one thing...printing enough money to equal your GDP and bailing out everyone else is called spending your way into bankruptcy.

117 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:42:13pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

I want to hear from Lizards who agreed with it, and still think the bailout was a good thing. Tell me why it's still a good thing?


Wait, let me check my malbox for my bailout check...

TRAMP TRAMP tramp tramp...

creak - clank

...tramp tramp TRAMP TRAMP.

Nope - it still sucks.

118 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:42:15pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you sure Keynes was a 'supply-sider'?

119 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:42:43pm

re: #115 zombie

Like I said, would be great to get a bunch of emails because people liked you.

Didn't have to change a word.

120 NelsFree  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:43:04pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

Good point, and here is my rebuttal. Bonuses are supposed to be based on performance. If performance is bad, no bonus. If paid bonus and now asking for handout, return bonus first. Pardon me if I'm not the first to comment thusly. I just arrived, and now have to go take out the trash. Speaking of which, 2010 is coming up...

121 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:43:12pm

Yesterday I heard an interesting commentary that the Fed is doing precisely what will cause hyper-inflation. They WANT to do that.

122 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:43:21pm

Get a rope.

123 faraway  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:43:40pm

re: #87 Cattt


I work for a large, successful financial services company.
we all got bonuses this year. Plus our top management get bonuses

Then, you are one of the ones these Marxists are complaining about. kudos to you.

124 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:43:50pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

FDR was the one who used keynes supply side economics

Say what?!

125 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:44:02pm

re: #120 NelsFree

Good point, and here is my rebuttal. Bonuses are supposed to be based on performance. If performance is bad, no bonus. If paid bonus and now asking for handout, return bonus first. Pardon me if I'm not the first to comment thusly. I just arrived, and now have to go take out the trash. Speaking of which, 2010 is coming up...

And what good is that going to do. You think if you vote a new bunch up to DC, that's going to change anything?

126 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:44:05pm

re: #107 Silhouette

I think that is their goal, to get people worked up.

There was no point of comparison in the artical.

The only real point is that there are rich people running banks. Big eff'n deal. There are rich people running every big business in the world. I say good for them.

127 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:44:17pm

re: #62 zombie

In SF on Saturday, there was a "solidarity riot" by anarchists in San Francisco who were "supporting" their fellow anarchists in Greece. The smashed up part of a mall -- in fact, the very same mall where I had previously recorded the "faux" soldiers "shooting" at people.

I agree, the police around here are way too lenient.

The Police are tired of being sued by their own DA for enforcing the law.

128 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:44:31pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I heard a whole lot of conservatives agreeing with it, right here on LGF. Do any Lizards still think it's a good thing?

John McCain suspends his campaign & rushes back to Washington for the crisis with the Dems ridiculing him. He sits in meetings , says next to nothing & then votes for the bail out! However did he lose?

129 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:44:35pm

re: #106 Harry Tuttle

Where's my hat tip?

[Link: seekingalpha.com...]

Referring to this of course.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

130 shug  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:45:08pm

I WANT A PERP WALK I DEMAND A PERP WALK

not for the bank execs, but for the neglegent bastards in Congress who allowed 1.6 billion of tax dollars to be PISSED AWAY

I'm furious

131 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:45:26pm

re: #87 Cattt

and we all got bonuses this year

Kuhlak! We know how to deal with hoarders like you!

132 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:45:34pm

re: #111 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

takes some work.

Sure does - and a pretty large jumper as well, I suppose ...

;-)

133 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:45:58pm

re: #132 yma o hyd

She said it was cold.

134 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:46:02pm

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

What industry do you work in? What do you do for a living? Can you stell us where you sit before you tell us where you stand?

I work in IT, but I do not see why that is relevant. I've lost a bundle like everyone else over the last year.

135 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:46:11pm

I have no problem with bonuses paid to successful managers running a successful Enterprise. But I do have a problem with bonuses paid to a bunch of rat finks running a company into the dirt and expecting to get paid extra for it.

136 pat  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:46:16pm

Guess the AP forgot to mention the Newspaper industry is also looking for a bailout.
[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

137 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:46:41pm

Got a 401K statement. Didn't lose the whole thing! yay!

138 kansas  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:46:57pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I heard a whole lot of conservatives agreeing with it, right here on LGF. Do any Lizards still think it's a good thing?

It would have been good if it wasn't mostly stolen. Instead of giving money to GM, how about making it easier to get one of their turdmobiles? Wasn't that why they gave 700 billion to banks, allegedly anyway. I mean, don't banks loan money? Guess I could be wrong.

139 LGoPs  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:46:59pm

This is bad. I'm as staunch a defender of capitalism as anyone and I find this wrong. I can just imagine how this looks to the large number of people who already find socialism appealing.
For capitalism to survive it needs a strong internal policing mechanism - this ain't it...

140 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:47:01pm

re: #119 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Like I said, would be great to get a bunch of emails because people liked you.

Didn't have to change a word.

Well, it may seem great, but to be honest, it really really becomes burdensome and overwhelming. One simply doesn't have time to respond to them all -- even to people one knows and likes back, like mikalm. I try to do "triage" on my emails, and prioritize them, but that takes time too, and in the end I can't answer them all (or necessarily even read them all). And I end up probably pissing people off and looking rude. So there's a big downside to getting all those emails: Guilt.

141 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:47:26pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

And what good is that going to do. You think if you vote a new bunch up to DC, that's going to change anything?

To paraphrase (late senator) Everett Dirksen,

A few hundred here, sixty or seventy there, pretty soon you're talking real representation.

It's a start ...

142 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:47:58pm

re: #137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Got a 401K statement. Didn't lose the whole thing! yay!

Dont worry. When Congress votes next year to seize control of all 401ks "for your own good", then you'll lose everything.

143 LudwigVanQuixote  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:48:05pm

Correction... I have no idea why I typed supply side economics. Call it a brain fart. My bad.

144 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:48:08pm

re: #139 LGoPs

This is bad. I'm as staunch a defender of capitalism as anyone and I find this wrong. I can just imagine how this looks to the large number of people who already find socialism appealing.
For capitalism to survive it needs a strong internal policing mechanism - this ain't it...

This isn't capitalism!

145 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:48:10pm

re: #134 DeafDog

I work in IT, but I do not see why that is relevant. I've lost a bundle like everyone else over the last year.

It's relevant if you are in an industry that benefitted from the bailout. Do you work in IT in a industry that benefitted from any of the bailout money, car industry money etc.?

146 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:48:30pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Interestingly enough, Bush did exactly what Hoover did in bailing out the banks first while ignoring everything else. THose bank execs took the money fro themselves too. Also, ummm, FDR was the one who used keynes supply side economics - something much touted by none other than Reagan...

Keynes actually criticized FDR more than a few times for the latter's lack of understanding of how economics works. Many of FDR's New Deal programs made the Great Depression worse and longer than it should have been.

147 faraway  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:48:47pm

Congress will probably nationalize the banks soon, and you guys will get your wish - no more bonuses.

148 Buster Bunny  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:48:57pm

re: #136 pat

Guess the AP forgot to mention the Newspaper industry is also looking for a bailout.
[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

Give them five bucks for a coffee. Then tell them to get a REAL job.

149 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:49:03pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

And what good is that going to do. You think if you vote a new bunch up to DC, that's going to change anything?

Okay, since you seem to think this whole "democracy" thing is useless, your proposed solution is ___.

[fill in blank]

150 Shug  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:49:14pm

re: #144 Harry Tuttle

This isn't capitalism!

This is grand theft

151 SFGoth  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:49:19pm

Every day that goes by just brings me one step closer to the Libertarian party.

152 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:49:46pm

re: #139 LGoPs

This is bad. I'm as staunch a defender of capitalism as anyone and I find this wrong. I can just imagine how this looks to the large number of people who already find socialism appealing.
For capitalism to survive it needs a strong internal policing mechanism - this ain't it...

The subprime meltdown caused a lot of this, but not all. There were lax SEC auditors combined greedy lenders, greedy investors added to unrealistic pie in the sky Congressional "vision"...thank you all...

153 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:50:02pm

re: #129 Harry Tuttle

Referring to this of course.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You're demanding a hat tip for posting a comment?

154 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:50:15pm

re: #133 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

She said it was cold.

She's gone - probably to fill a hot water bottle.
Or the people are just finishing with the heating system ...

I do sooo symathise, it always happend here on the coldest weekend of the winter ...

155 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:50:22pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dont worry. When Congress votes next year to seize control of all 401ks "for your own good", then you'll lose everything.

The last I heard about that, they weren't going to seize it.
They just won't let you have any of it until you retire.

In the meantime, you get (I think) 4% interest accumulated.
Regardless of inflation.

156 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:50:24pm

I'll play Devil's Advocate here and note that the billions of dollars that the banks and financial institutions dole out in bonuses every year does a whole lot more than just pad the bank accounts of those executives and everyone else at these firms.

They provide billions in taxes for the State of New York and help drive the engine of commerce in the NYC metro area. That's billions of dollars that suddenly dried up with the stock market tanking and firms going under.

That's money that wasn't being spent on buying new homes, apartments, furnishings, cars, etc. throughout the region (and elsewhere that these banks and investment houses and insurance companies operated).

The money that these firms ordinarily spend on bonuses is staggeringly high, and it's a big reason that NYS felt flush when the stock market kept going up.

Now, the state budget is in the crapper and they're looking to raise taxes and fees all over the place. The idiots at SEIU and GNYHA want to raise taxes on the rich - to pay their fair share.

Problem is that the supply siders were proven right - they have been driving the economy all along, and now that the economy has gone into the crapper, the left wants to tax them even more (driving them out of state or out of business, whichever comes first).

157 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:50:28pm

re: #141 jwb7605

To paraphrase (late senator) Everett Dirksen,
A few hundred here, sixty or seventy there, pretty soon you're talking real representation. It's a start ...

No it's not. No one gets to DC unless they will benefit the plutocracy. And if someone should slip in, they will either play along or they will be out with in a single term.

Every politician in DC is of SOME use to the big money people.

This is becoming clearer every day.

158 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:50:59pm

re: #151 SFGoth

Every day that goes by just brings me one step closer to the Libertarian party.

Which part of the Libertarian party attracts you; the "small government" part or the "boy I could use a joint" part?

/

159 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:51:18pm

re: #135 maddogg

I have no problem with bonuses paid to successful managers running a successful Enterprise. But I do have a problem with bonuses paid to a bunch of rat finks running a company into the dirt and expecting to get paid extra for it.


Also an excellent point.

The artical makes no point of reference between successful financial institutions and unsuccessful ones. We know $1.6B was paid to the top 600 exects and $250M of that went to the top 5 at goldman sachs, who are now all working for their base saleries alone.

160 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:51:19pm

Just to keep on track, the $1.6 was not just bonuses. It includes salary and other benefits

$1.6 billion in salaries, bonuses and other benefits in 2007

So on average, the top 600 guys in banking in the US made about $2.67 million apiece. If you'd asked me to guess their take-home, it would have been close to that.

161 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:51:20pm

re: #149 Occasional Reader

Okay, since you seem to think this whole "democracy" thing is useless, your proposed solution is ___.

[fill in blank]

Dictatorship. Fall in line behind me and I'll take care of you.

/

162 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:51:45pm

re: #113 Wishing

I think the point of the story is that the banks that are getting the bail out are the very ones guilty of over-compensating their execs.

That may be the point, but it wasn't made in the article.

And how do you define "overcompensation"? The market generally defines it as paying more than a company has to to attract management. I doubt any of the writers of that article and most of us have the information or ability to know when that has occurred.

Further, the problems that the auto industry and many banks are having are not usually the result of one bad exec, rather a stream of bad ones over many years. It's clearly not easy to find good senior management.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these guys, but blaming the boards for "overcompensating" management isn't hitting at the real problem. Those boards should have been replacing bad management with better management if it was available. Clearly some were trying with those compensation packages. Just as clearly, it didn't work in some cases.

163 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:51:54pm

Charles,
It's not just the banks that decline to say where the money's going, but the federal government is not responding to FOIA requests on where the TARP money is going either. Treasury and the Fed are both playing games with taxpayer dollars and no one wants to shed light on where the money has gone.

164 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:51:59pm

re: #55 Ben Hur

Someone's gotta feed the monkey.

Monkey food is expensive. Slap that monkey into line.

165 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:52:03pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

No one gets to DC unless they will benefit the plutocracy.

Walter, you sound like you're a short stroll away from Democratic Underground or prisonplanet.

166 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:52:13pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

No it's not. No one gets to DC unless they will benefit the plutocracy. And if someone should slip in, they will either play along or they will be out with in a single term.

Every politician in DC is of SOME use to the big money people.

This is becoming clearer every day.

"Meet the New Boss, the Same as the Old Boss"

167 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:52:14pm

re: #140 zombie

Guilt. The gift that keeps on giving.

Disclaimer. Auto response to emails.

"Hey, thanks for your interest in my work. Unfortunately, the volume of emails I receive, coupled with my work makes answering emails personally impossible. Again, I truly appreciate your support, but simply can not make the time to answer."

I've been wanting to be so popular that I had to use that one, but, alas, you can have it.

168 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:52:17pm

Britain steps up inspections of Israeli goods

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Yup, that's gonna solve all the world's problems? Brilliant.

169 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:52:49pm

re: #158 DaddyG

Which part of the Libertarian party attracts you; the "small government" part or the "boy I could use a joint" part?

/

upding.
/I hate tough questions.

170 joncelli  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:53:04pm

re: #158 DaddyG

Both!

171 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:53:27pm

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

It's relevant if you are in an industry that benefitted from the bailout. Do you work in IT in a industry that benefitted from any of the bailout money, car industry money etc.?

No.

And I don't support the bailout.

But this AP artical is garbage statistics.

172 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:53:38pm

Kragar,

Dictatorship. Fall in line behind me and I'll take care of you.

Eh, why not? The trains always run on time in Kragaristan.

/dutifully gets in line

173 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:53:38pm

re: #168 Nevergiveup

Britain steps up inspections of Israeli goods

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Yup, that's gonna solve all the world's problems? Brilliant.

"Another batch of well made, high quality, affordable products. Those Jews must be up to something!"

174 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:54:00pm

re: #149 Occasional Reader

Okay, since you seem to think this whole "democracy" thing is useless, your proposed solution is ___.

[fill in blank]

First off, I think our democracy has gone south. It is no longer a democracy, there for I'm not even talking about that. Our system has become a plutocracy, with a number of politicians also working in the mode of a kleptocracy.

I have no solution, since voting does not work anymore. How can it, when it's not a democracy.

I know what happened last time a government foreign to our interests stole from us. Remember, that was the Brits.

175 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:54:11pm

re: #172 Dirk Diggler

Kragar,


Eh, why not? The trains always run on time in Kragaristan.

/dutifully gets in line

Kragarolini?

176 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:54:20pm

re: #166 Desert Dog

"Meet the New Boss, the Same as the Old Boss"

Continuity. Smooth Transitions. Yeah, that's the ticket ...

177 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:54:30pm

re: #153 Occasional Reader

You're demanding a hat tip for posting a comment?

The comment:

Where did the looters put all your money?

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

"Where'd the bailout money go? Shhh, it's a secret
Email this Story

Dec 22, 9:52 AM (ET)

By MATT APUZZO

WASHINGTON (AP) - It's something any bank would demand to know before handing out a loan: Where's the money going?

But after receiving billions in aid from U.S. taxpayers, the nation's largest banks say they can't track exactly how they're spending the money or they simply refuse to discuss it.

"We've lent some of it. We've not lent some of it. We've not given any accounting of, 'Here's how we're doing it,'" said Thomas Kelly, a spokesman for JPMorgan Chase, which received $25 billion in emergency bailout money. "We have not disclosed that to the public. We're declining to."

The Associated Press contacted 21 banks that received at least $1 billion in government money and asked four questions: How much has been spent? What was it spent on? How much is being held in savings, and what's the plan for the rest?

None of the banks provided specific answers."

Bend over lizards.

OR do we have some kind of issue or something?

I know a while back I told you to piss off inappropriately but I did apologize to you, perhaps you missed that.

Whatever dude.

178 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:55:00pm

re: #146 Honorary Yooper

Keynes actually criticized FDR more than a few times for the latter's lack of understanding of how economics works. Many of FDR's New Deal programs made the Great Depression worse and longer than it should have been.


The Great Depression was halted by World War Two, not FDR policies.
FDR tried but public works jobs could not sustain a recovery.
Obama will follow the FDR template.

179 GregInSeattle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:55:02pm

This pisses me off.

This country is out of control.

I wish decent people would run for office. But what decent person would want to? You have to play the corrupt games to get anything done.

God save the Republic!

180 Dave the.....  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:55:05pm

Yooper

Keynes actually criticized FDR more than a few times for the latter's lack of understanding of how economics works. Many of FDR's New Deal programs made the Great Depression worse and longer than it should have been.

Yes. Roosevelt was so economically illiterate, he thought that the Great Depression was caused by too much competition. He said the solution was higher prices for goods, protectionist legislation, and union monopolies (which then had African-Americans fired so their white friends could get their jobs, but that's another story).

He set taxes high, and regulated businesses to death.

Hey sent a tailor in New Jersey (or was it New York?) to prison for giving his customers a 5 cent discount on dry cleaning their pants.

181 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:55:37pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

I want to hear from Lizards who agreed with it, and still think the bailout was a good thing. Tell me why it's still a good thing?

I have reserved judgement, mainly because I have no idea WTF is going on, truly.
BUT, here it is Dec. 22, the stores have food, SOME banks are open, gas stations have gas, and my power is still on.

Contrast that with the dire scenarios that did NOT come to pass.

So, I throw up my hands, for now.

The only things I have noticed that are very different are I am no longer getting credit card offers thrown at me in the mail like confetti. And a couple that I rarely used have been closed by the banks themselves. I don't see the down side to that.

Oh, and I have no frikkin' idea what I will do for a livelihood after my last paying gig on Jan. 1. There is that.

182 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:55:46pm

re: #171 DeafDog

No.

And I don't support the bailout.

But this AP artical is garbage statistics.

Fine, this article should make you fell fine.

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

183 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:55:56pm

re: #172 Dirk Diggler

Kragar,


Eh, why not? The trains always run on time in Kragaristan.

/dutifully gets in line

I congratulate you on being the pebble which will start the landslide. You will stand high in my council and reap the rewards you are due.

184 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:56:03pm

The joy of socialism. Money is no longer made by success or hard work.

185 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:56:24pm

re: #178 opnion

The Great Depression was halted by World War Two, not FDR policies.
FDR tried but public works jobs could not sustain a recovery.
Obama will follow the FDR template.

I fear you may be correct.
In all areas.

186 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:56:30pm
187 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:56:53pm

re: #178 opnion

The Great Depression was halted by World War Two, not FDR policies.
FDR tried but public works jobs could not sustain a recovery.
Obama will follow the FDR template.

Lucky for us Bush followed Hoovers plan...hey, wait a minute! ahhh!
Pretty soon me and Ma will load up the Model T and head to Salinas to pick fruit...

188 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:57:15pm

re: #177 Harry Tuttle

The comment:

Yes, I know what the comment was. Hat tips around these parts are usually given for providing thread topics.

OR do we have some kind of issue or something?

You posted two things today I disagreed with, and I explained why. That's not an "issue".

189 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:57:17pm
191 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:57:39pm
192 Dave the.....  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:57:57pm

Lawhawk, problem is, that you can't artificially increase economic activity. It's like trying to create an engine that produces more energy then it consumes. The laws of economic physics are violated.

It's impossible for the gov't to create wealth. They can only create conditions that allow private enterprise to do it. By reducing taxes, regulation, allowing free trade, reducing law suit abuse, etc

193 subsailor68  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:58:00pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

No it's not. No one gets to DC unless they will benefit the plutocracy. And if someone should slip in, they will either play along or they will be out with in a single term.

Every politician in DC is of SOME use to the big money people.

This is becoming clearer every day.

I suppose you're right, sadly enough. But, the Texas congressman, Charlie Wilson, got his influence because the folks in his district actually told him they didn't want him to bring anything back. So, he was free to use his vote as he saw fit, not to ensure his constituents would vote him back in.

(I know, simplistic - and hey, that Afghan thing was debatable.)

I guess the idealist in me hopes for a new breed of Charlie Wilson types, beholden to constituents who are willing to say "Just go do the right thing, and don't worry about bringin' us pork. We don't want it."

194 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:58:09pm

re: #165 Occasional Reader

Walter, you sound like you're a short stroll away from Democratic Underground or prisonplanet.

No, I am dealing with reality, your not. I don't want to see violence, I don't want to see people on the streets and I would never suggest that it's the answer.

But there is nothing unrealistic in stating the truth and pointing out what I think I am hearing, not on the DU or PrisonPlanet, but from ordinary citizens I run into on a daily basis.

You will even here this on Glenn Beck.

What's your solution, or do you think things are fine?

195 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:58:12pm

MMM, Lunch today was burgundy tri-tip, olives stuffed with garlic, some fine sharp cheddar and some fresh french rolls. I am now content.

196 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:58:33pm

NY Times published fake letter from Paris mayor

In an editor's note posted Monday on its Web site, the Times said the letter signed by Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe should not have been published because it violated the paper's standards and procedures.

/the NYT has standards. who knew?

197 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:59:01pm

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Just doing the jobs that the illegal aliens won't do?

Illegal aliens? Are you kidding? They will head south back home to get jobs once the GREAT DEPRESSION of 2009 hits. :-)

198 jcbunga  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:59:08pm

When it comes to journalism and business over the last 30 years or so, our universities have certainly been churning out a lot of chimps.

199 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:59:13pm

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Just doing the jobs that the illegal aliens won't do?

Boy Howdy!

DALLAS — Illegal immigrants are returning home to Mexico in numbers not seen for decades — and the Mexican government may have to deal with a crush on its social services and lower wages once the immigrants arrive.

200 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:59:20pm

re: #183 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I congratulate you on being the pebble which will start the landslide. You will stand high in my council and reap the rewards you are due.

But don't you think Dirk seems a little too eager to work his way into the highest levels of the Kragaristan regime?

Might not his ambition be a threat to you?

Think about it.

And when you decide to plan the show trial, call me, I'm full of ideas!

201 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:59:35pm

re: #196 Killian Bundy

NY Times published fake letter from Paris mayor

/the NYT has standards. who knew?

The letter was critical of Caroline Kennedy. I think it was that standard that slipped by them.

202 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 12:59:58pm

re: #178 opnion

The Great Depression was halted by World War Two, not FDR policies.
FDR tried but public works jobs could not sustain a recovery.
Obama will follow the FDR template.

Absolutely, and with the same results.

203 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:00:05pm

re: #187 Desert Dog

Lucky for us Bush followed Hoovers plan...hey, wait a minute! ahhh!
Pretty soon me and Ma will load up the Model T and head to Salinas to pick fruit...


Back to the Dust Bowl days? You need a daughter named Rose of Sharon.

204 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:00:21pm

re: #168 Nevergiveup

Britain steps up inspections of Israeli goods

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Yup, that's gonna solve all the world's problems? Brilliant.

Israel should respond and self-inspect all its technological developements, cancer care research, child care research, etc etc etc, and REFUSE TO SHARE ITS RESEARCH WITH BRITAIN.

205 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:00:21pm

re: #200 Occasional Reader

But don't you think Dirk seems a little too eager to work his way into the highest levels of the Kragaristan regime?

Might not his ambition be a threat to you?

Think about it.

And when you decide to plan the show trial, call me, I'm full of ideas!

All ways keep the eager ones close. It confuses the snipers and makes it easier to slip the knife into their back.

206 SFGoth  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:00:33pm

re: #158 DaddyG

Which part of the Libertarian party attracts you; the "small government" part or the "boy I could use a joint" part?

/

Just about every part that the Republican party isn't (anymore).

207 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:00:48pm

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

What's your solution, or do you think things are fine?

I don't think things are fine, and I think the solution lies in electing better political leaders, not in jettisoning everything in favor of unknown Option X will making dark references to the Revolution.

208 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:00:55pm

re: #188 Occasional Reader

Yes, I know what the comment was. Hat tips around these parts are usually given for providing thread topics.

OR do we have some kind of issue or something?

You posted two things today I disagreed with, and I explained why. That's not an "issue".

Can't we all just get along?

209 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:01:32pm

re: #181 rawmuse

I have reserved judgement, mainly because I have no idea WTF is going on, truly.
BUT, here it is Dec. 22, the stores have food, SOME banks are open, gas stations have gas, and my power is still on.

Contrast that with the dire scenarios that did NOT come to pass.

So, I throw up my hands, for now.

The only things I have noticed that are very different are I am no longer getting credit card offers thrown at me in the mail like confetti. And a couple that I rarely used have been closed by the banks themselves. I don't see the down side to that.

Oh, and I have no frikkin' idea what I will do for a livelihood after my last paying gig on Jan. 1. There is that.

Yes, look at the prices of food that is in the stores. Remember how the prices shot up when the price of gas shot up. Have you seen prices go down any, now that the price of a barrel have decreased so much?

And, I noticed last night, that most of the sales on name brand items were gone, and with in this last week, the prices actually went up.

Hebrew National franks, normal price 4.99 a pack, that was a week ago, this week, 5.59, right before Christmas. And I went walking around the store and have seen a lot of the name brands suddenly shoot up.

You're getting it right up the rear and you are smiling.

210 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:01:35pm
211 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:01:37pm

re: #174 Walter L. Newton

Heh.
We're in no position of even thinking of a repeat performance.

Agree generally with what you say, though.

212 dhg4  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:01:41pm

re: #23 A Kiwi Infidel

Didnt yasser arafart say something similar regarding the $300,000,000 in foreign aid?

Glad you asked. Michael Kelly - from 10 years ago.

THERE WAS A WONDERFUL MOMENT in the annals of diplomacy this week. Yasser Arafat, the president of the Palestinian Authority, had come to town to attend an international conference convened by the White House to raise a new pile of money to give to President Arafat. And the conference had gone splendidly.

Everyone had behaved perfectly fine; no one had so much as mentioned the inconvenient London Sunday Times story the day before, which said that the Palestinian Authority had swiped $20 million in British aid intended to build housing for the poor of Gaza, using the money instead to build luxury flats for Arafat's military and bureaucratic elite. After a day of pleasantries, representatives of 43 nations had pledged $3 billion in new aid to the Palestinian Authority, including an extra $400 million from the U.S. president. Arafat saw that it was good. "I am satisfied with the reality of this conference," he pronounced.

213 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:01:44pm

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

All ways keep the eager ones close. It confuses the snipers and makes it easier to slip the knife into their back.

So, will you start issuing orders from "The Office of the Dictator-Elect" soon?

214 Arbalest  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:01:53pm

Paragraph 13 of the article:

John A. Thain chief executive officer of Merrill Lynch, topped all corporate bank bosses with $83 million in earnings last year. Thain, a former chief operating officer for Goldman Sachs, took the reins of the company in December 2007, avoiding the blame for a year in which Merrill lost $7.8 billion. Since he began work late in the year, he earned $57,692 in salary, a $15 million signing bonus and an additional $68 million in stock options.

The Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac meltdowns might not have been obvious to all in 2007, but there were many who knew and publicly said something. Further, these were not the only economic indicators of trouble .

How and for what job performance event, exactly, did Thain get a $15million signing bonus? Signing?

Tie executive bonuses and rewards to company profitability, and lose stock options, and much of the problem we have now will start to disappear.

Doubtless, many of those seeking bailouts would disappear.

215 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:02:48pm

I'm relishing the day when "Obamavilles" made out of cardboard boxes and scrap wood are build on The Mall in Washington D.C.

Then Obama can call out the Army to put down the "Boner Riots," in which homeless Iraq War vets demand their fair share of welfare Viagra.

216 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:02:52pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Hebrew National franks, normal price 4.99 a pack, that was a week ago, this week, 5.59, right before Christmas

a-HA!

217 LGoPs  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:03:26pm

re: #192 Dave the...

Lawhawk, problem is, that you can't artificially increase economic activity. It's like trying to create an engine that produces more energy then it consumes. The laws of economic physics are violated.

It's impossible for the gov't to create wealth. They can only create conditions that allow private enterprise to do it. By reducing taxes, regulation, allowing free trade, reducing law suit abuse, etc

Your'e exactly right. The problem is that there are an astounding number of our fellow citizens that don't understand that fundamental concept and vote accordingly.

218 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:03:27pm

re: #216 Occasional Reader

a-HA!


Love that video.

219 Harry Tuttle  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:03:36pm

re: #208 Harry Tuttle

Can't we all just get along?

And big LFG is ripping off our hat tip.

220 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:03:44pm
221 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:03:51pm

re: #215 zombie

I'm relishing the day when "Obamavilles" made out of cardboard boxes and scrap wood are build on The Mall in Washington D.C.

Then Obama can call out the Army to put down the "Boner Riots," in which homeless Iraq War vets demand their fair share of welfare Viagra.

As I recall, they called them Hoovervilles, not Rooseveltvilles...they will blame Bush while Obama gives us the Fireside Bullcrap chats

222 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:20pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton
I can walk five blocks to the little produce vendors on Mission St., spend 5 bucks and eat well for days.

California doesn't ALWAYS suck. We have cheap food, and plenty of it.

223 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:23pm

Andrea Mitchell: You Wouldn't Say Caroline Kennedy was in "Harriet Miers Country" if You Knew Her, Pat

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

There are times I think Andrea Mitchell must be keith Oberman in drag?

224 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:24pm

re: #207 Occasional Reader

I don't think things are fine, and I think the solution lies in electing better political leaders, not in jettisoning everything in favor of unknown Option X will making dark references to the Revolution.

You are not following my logic. even if you don't agree, you tell me what would you do if I'm right.

If I'm correct in stating that anyone we send to DC will either get there because he is some use to the plutocracy, or else he won't last more than one term unless he starts playing along.

Let's just play make believe (make believe in your world) and say that what I just laid out is 100 percent correct.

Than, playing my little game, how do you fix this?

225 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:25pm

Will Bush Deliver Farewell Address?

But might he slip back to Texas without saying goodbye?

The word out of the White House is that the president still hasn’t decided whether to deliver a farewell address, either from the Oval Office or some other location. Spokesman Tony Fratto said Monday that he “thinking about some ideas. But he hasn’t made that decision yet.

“I think if he feels that he has something important to say and it's the right way to say it, he will. But he just hasn't decided yet,” Fratto said.

/um, I vote for "slip back to Texas without saying goodbye"

226 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:36pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

Fine, this article should make you fell fine.

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

The govt. should never have given these 'bailout' loans, IMO. The bailout is done. Let's put a lid on it and never do it again. And let's not make a second mistake because we made that first one.

Requiring the banks to do some sort of whacked out accounting of the money - after the fact - would be a second mistake.

227 Dave the.....  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:44pm

Thanks Kilgore. I have "The Forgotten Man" on my Christmas list. Will pick this book up also.

Right now reading a book on the 1940 election. It's amazing how Roosevelt lied to the American people about keeping the US out of war, and about not giving illegal aid to Britain.

Of course, I support him here. He knew what was coming and did what he could, even if it meant lying and skirting the law, to save England and prepare the US for war. The point of the book is that by having a pro-interventionist Wilkie on the Republican ticket, FDR was able to do these things.

228 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:04:54pm

re: #218 Ben Hur

Love that video.

Yeah, haha funny, but we're on to You Guys and your big weiner ripoff, Ben.

Wait. Let me rephrase that.

229 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:05:02pm

re: #215 zombie

I'm relishing the day when "Obamavilles" made out of cardboard boxes and scrap wood are build on The Mall in Washington D.C.

Then Obama can call out the Army to put down the "Boner Riots," in which homeless Iraq War vets demand their fair share of welfare Viagra.

Upding! (I feel dirty for doing it though)

230 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:05:12pm

OT and all, but too good to pass up...
Shopping in Israel
Ya know, speaking of malls and all..

231 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:05:23pm

re: #221 Desert Dog

As I recall, they called them Hoovervilles, not Rooseveltvilles...they will blame Bush while Obama gives us the Fireside Bullcrap chats

At first, but that won't last longer than a year. Obama will be expected to wave a holy hand and make it alright. He is really most sincerely screwed.

232 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:05:40pm

Furnace guys have finished! New furnace is installed and turned on!

Thermostat says it is 51 frikken degrees in the house. Gonna take a while to heat up, obviously.

I'm suiting up for a trek to the kitchen for some hot tea.

233 Just Another Four-letter Word  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:05:56pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

I *am* thinking about what I am saying, and I say that the executive bonuses are absolutely out-of-line. These porkers and their cohorts on the Board(s) of Directors are way overcompensated, using the tune of "You've got to compensate talent to get the best!" Oh yeah? So far I haven't seen anything resembling "best", just a bunch of jerkoffs running fast-and-loose with everybody else's money.

Waitaminute. Am I talking about Congresscritters, or the Financial "Gurus".?!?
Now I'm confused...

JAFLW

234 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:06:07pm

re: #222 rawmuse

I can walk five blocks to the little produce vendors on Mission St., spend 5 bucks and eat well for days.

California doesn't ALWAYS suck. We have cheap food, and plenty of it.

The problem with California is, it's full of Californians...

235 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:06:25pm

re: #213 Desert Dog

So, will you start issuing orders from "The Office of the Dictator-Elect" soon?

No. I will let the Department Minister issue decrees on their own behalf. Easier to shift blame in the long run that way.

236 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:06:32pm

re: #228 Occasional Reader

Yeah, haha funny, but we're on to You Guys and your big weiner ripoff, Ben.

For gosh sake, don't shake their hands!

237 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:06:34pm

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

Let's just play make believe (make believe in your world) and say that what I just laid out is 100 percent correct.

Well, gosh, if there's really a "The Plutocracy" that secretly controls the country, then I guess we should all take up arms and get to the barricades.

And if my grandmother had wheels...

238 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:06:34pm

re: #222 rawmuse

I can walk five blocks to the little produce vendors on Mission St., spend 5 bucks and eat well for days.

California doesn't ALWAYS suck. We have cheap food, and plenty of it.

Fine, ignore what I just posted. I just made that up. Really, why don't you address what I posted, I wasn't just pulling that ouot of my ass for the fun of it.

It's true, it's fact, and it stinks. gas is down, prices are still going up, what gives?

239 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:06:48pm

re: #234 maddogg

The problem with California is, it's full of Californians...

Ok Longshanks

240 Nevergiveup  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:03pm

re: #225 Killian Bundy

Will Bush Deliver Farewell Address?

/um, I vote for "slip back to Texas without saying goodbye"

My vote is address the nation and tell the MSM were to go and were to stick it. Now that is what I would do. But I have no class and President Bush does so...

241 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:03pm
242 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:10pm

re: #230 Wishing

OT and all, but too good to pass up...
Shopping in Israel
Ya know, speaking of malls and all..

The Zionist Mall is open for your shopping convenience! Only 7 days left of Hanukkah.

243 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:12pm

re: #239 Creeping Eruption

:)

244 The Hoopster  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:18pm

re: #232 Alouette

Furnace guys have finished! New furnace is installed and turned on!

Thermostat says it is 51 frikken degrees in the house. Gonna take a while to heat up, obviously.

I'm suiting up for a trek to the kitchen for some hot tea.

I was alittle worried about you..usually heater problems are fixed pretty quick.
Good luck and get warm!

245 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:22pm

re: #238 Walter L. Newton

I am thinking your prices may be a local phenom.

246 Just Another Four-letter Word  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:27pm

re: #36 reloadingisnotahobby

No shit!
This just turned a great lunch into ...GAS!
M(*&^* F*&^%^&!
I'd love to bump into one of these assholes and [deleted],[deleted] right in the [deleted]!
On the bright side...My Mrs's asked me to sign her up for a concealment course!
I'm confused!

Merry Christmas... I think?

JAFLW

/I'm confused again...

247 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:07:34pm

re: #219 Harry Tuttle

And big LFG is ripping off our hat tip.

/it's really bad form to whine about hat tips

248 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:07pm

Kragar,

I congratulate you on being the pebble which will start the landslide. You will stand high in my council and reap the rewards you are due.

You will find me to be the perfect flunky, excellency. I am pliable, lack both scruples and ambition, and can be easily controlled with booze and women.

BTW, Occasional Reader has been questioning my loyalty as well as your righteous and benevolent rule. It may be time for him to have an unfortunate accident.

249 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:20pm

re: #241 taxfreekiller

Correction, we are deep in the hole, not merely broke.

250 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:24pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Yes, look at the prices of food that is in the stores. Remember how the prices shot up when the price of gas shot up. Have you seen prices go down any, now that the price of a barrel have decreased so much?

Actually, yes, I have seen some prices drop. I see more $1.99/gallon sales for milk again, and it's even dropped in price (many places carry it for $2.75/gallon or so). I saw a 40 cent drop in a drink I like (per gallon). Even the price of cat food has come down a bit.

251 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:24pm

re: #234 maddogg

The problem with California is, it's full of Californianscators...

Fixed it!

/

252 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:25pm

re: #160 Silhouette

Just to keep on track, the $1.6 was not just bonuses. It includes salary and other benefits

$1.6 billion in salaries, bonuses and other benefits in 2007

So on average, the top 600 guys in banking in the US made about $2.67 million apiece. If you'd asked me to guess their take-home, it would have been close to that.

I wonder what the total salaries of MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL players was for last year.

Could be an interesting comparison.

253 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:30pm

re: #237 Occasional Reader

Well, gosh, if there's really a "The Plutocracy" that secretly controls the country, then I guess we should all take up arms and get to the barricades.

And if my grandmother had wheels...

It's not a secret. Shit, they shove it in our face, every day. Face reality.

254 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:08:47pm

re: #210 taxfreekiller

You are spot on. Run for office!

255 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:09:14pm

re: #215 zombie

I'm relishing the day when "Obamavilles" made out of cardboard boxes and scrap wood are build on The Mall in Washington D.C.

Then Obama can call out the Army to put down the "Boner Riots," in which homeless Iraq War vets demand their fair share of welfare Viagra.

I should probably clarify that comment, since not everyone is familiar with the history of 1932:

Hoovervilles

Bonus Army riot

256 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:09:27pm

re: #242 Alouette

The Zionist Mall is open for your shopping convenience! Only 7 days left of Hanukkah.

Every year we get the kidlets Sara's Prints pjs.

Made in Israel.

One year, they were lizard pajamas, which was so satisfying in four ways.

257 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:09:39pm

re: #226 DeafDog

The govt. should never have given these 'bailout' loans, IMO. The bailout is done. Let's put a lid on it and never do it again. And let's not make a second mistake because we made that first one.

Requiring the banks to do some sort of whacked out accounting of the money - after the fact - would be a second mistake.

NO, let's hold these assholes feet to the fire. Let's put a lid on it. Shit, that's just why they get away with it, because no one wants to fight them...

Merry Christmas.

258 dhg4  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:09:47pm

re: #215 zombie

I'm relishing the day when "Obamavilles" made out of cardboard boxes and scrap wood are build on The Mall in Washington D.C.

Mark Helprin from 2000:

If George W. Bush becomes president, the armies of the homeless, hundreds of thousands strong, will once again be used to illustrate the opposition's arguments about welfare, the economy, and taxation. Should the economy falter, as economies do, the opposition will report that the numbers in these armies of the night will have swollen far beyond the extent that they actually will have.

i.e. They won't be counted over the next 4 (or 8) years.

259 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:09:57pm

re: #242 Alouette

The Zionist Mall is open for your shopping convenience! Only 7 days left of Hanukkah.

If you are tagging a commercial on...shouldn't you have at least asked?

260 Catttt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:10:02pm

re: #131 Occasional Reader

Kuhlak! We know how to deal with hoarders like you!

Would it help if I mentioned I bought myself a new iPod for Christmas (since I could no longer sync my perfectly good gen one iPod) - and the cats each got an early present (heated beds)? Ho ho ho! :D

261 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:10:16pm

re: #234 maddogg

The problem with California is, it's full of Californians...

Colorado has been experiencing an influx of that same problem.
It's now a Blue state, as a result.

262 Catttt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:25pm

re: #260 Cattt

Would it help if I mentioned I bought myself a new iPod for Christmas (since I could no longer sync my perfectly good gen one iPod) - and the cats each got an early present (heated beds)? Ho ho ho! :D

...and we are all using our presents right now! :D

263 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:29pm

re: #238 Walter L. Newton

Fine, ignore what I just posted. I just made that up. Really, why don't you address what I posted, I wasn't just pulling that ouot of my ass for the fun of it.

It's true, it's fact, and it stinks. gas is down, prices are still going up, what gives?

What gives.

(Hint: It's not The Plutocracy or the Smoking Man from The X-Files. Much more mundane stuff.)

264 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:30pm

Heck, don't blame me for California's budget, I vote conservative, small government. Hell, I even ran for office in San Francisco on that platform. I got like, 9 votes.

265 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:40pm

re: #261 jwb7605

Colorado has been experiencing an influx of that same problem.
It's now a Blue state, as a result.


You gotta convert 'em like Utah if you want to keep your culture.

/

266 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:46pm

re: #261 jwb7605

Colorado has been experiencing an influx of that same problem.
It's now a Blue state, as a result.

Yes, and Denver's city council got some big wage raises this year. And by the way, all other city employees are getting a nothing new and will be asked to take certain days off coming up next year.

267 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:53pm
268 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:11:54pm

reloading, are you still here?
This is one you will enjoy

269 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:12:02pm

re: #234 maddogg

The problem with California is, it's full of Californians...

We OCs (Original Californians, or at least those of us born here before 1965 or so) like to say the problem with California is that it is full of Northeastern Liberals, thankyouverymuch.

They are far worse, and have done far more damage, than the illegal immigrants.

270 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:12:39pm

re: #261 jwb7605

Colorado has been experiencing an influx of that same problem.
It's now a Blue state, as a result.

Yes. I noticed that happening starting some 15-20 years ago. Most distressing.

271 Just Another Four-letter Word  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:12:50pm

re: #63 eschew_obfuscation

Has anyone noticed that the 1.6 billion in bonuses/compensation being discussed was paid in 2007?

This is not bail out money. It's perhaps poorly spent, but it has nothing to do with the bail out.

While I noticed that this was "last years' money", I also noticed that these overpriced buffoons got "surprised" by the latest events in 2008. Poorly spent doesn't describe the half of it, since most of the Corporate Executives nowadays arer intent on feathering their own nests, and to hell with the worker...

But don't get the impression I'm for the Unions, either. Same birds, different feathers.

JAFLW

272 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:13:11pm

re: #255 zombie

I should probably clarify that comment, since not everyone is familiar with the history of 1932:

Hoovervilles

Bonus Army riot

Regarding the Bonus Army, FDR did send a good many of them south to build the overseas highway to Key West. Not a bad idea, but it was done during hurricane season. They had more than enough time to evacuate them, but failed to do so, before the Labor Day Hurricane of 1935 hit the Keys. IIRC, it killed about 270 or so of the vets.

273 Kragar  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:13:18pm

Dirk and OR,

In order to properly respond to your concerns, I am naming you both cabinet heads. Dirk will be in charge of Internal Security and Intelligence. OR will be responsible for National Police Service and Investigations. Due to an unfortunate overlapping of duties, you will both be forced to compete for the same resources and jurisdictional disputes will be a daily occurence, though you should easily be able to manage those by keeping a careful watch on each other thru a network of informants. If either of you fail in your duties, then the Palace Guard will be sent in to liquidate you and your staffs, as well as your extended families. Congratulations on your new duties and let me be the first to wish you good luck.

274 looking closely  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:13:34pm

re: #87 Cattt

That's really specious of you.

I work for a large, successful financial services company. Our management saw this coming. Because of that, our balance sheet is in the black (no debt). . .

Being fiscally conservative, while helping people make money, we are still in business and don't need a handout from the government.

/Suckers. . .should have waited for the handout!

And this is exactly why the failing banks shouldn't be bailed out. Why reward the ones who had bad business judgment?

275 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:13:39pm

re: #220 Honorary Yooper

Need to find that one, but I found this one Saturday:
New Deal or Raw Deal: How FDR's Economic Legacy Has Damaged America

The people who lived through the Depression for the most part admire FDR & credit him with ending it. To speak against him is a kind of blasphemy. I think that he did try, but he did a lot of wrong things.
It is a small point to you though if a public works job put food on the table & kept the wolf from the door. The problem is it could not have lasted & the beginning of the end of the Great Depression was Pearl Harbor.

276 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:13:51pm

re: #260 Cattt

Would it help if I mentioned I bought myself a new iPod for Christmas

Counter-revolutionary wrecker! Only Inner Party members (like myself) are allowed to buy ourselves fun gadgets for Christmas.

277 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:14:15pm

re: #261 jwb7605

Colorado has been experiencing an influx of that same problem.
It's now a Blue state, as a result.

What you in Colorado are experiencing is what we in California experienced 40 years ago.

Welcome to the club.

278 Catttt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:14:56pm

re: #261 jwb7605

Colorado has been experiencing an influx of that same problem.
It's now a Blue state, as a result.

I remember when I was in college (Western State College, Gunnison, CO), one of my teachers had a "Don't Californicate Colorado" bumper sticker on his door.

279 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:15:08pm

re: #269 Spiny Norman

We OCs (Original Californians, or at least those of us born here before 1965 or so) like to say the problem with California is that it is full of Northeastern Liberals, thankyouverymuch.

They are far worse, and have done far more damage, than the illegal immigrants.

I can't argue with that. I lived in California for some years many years ago, and the change was already taking place in the 60's.

280 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:15:54pm

Idaho appears to be the latest destination for California refugees.

281 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:16:11pm

re: #257 Walter L. Newton

NO, let's hold these assholes feet to the fire. Let's put a lid on it. Shit, that's just why they get away with it, because no one wants to fight them...

Merry Christmas.

Fight whom? The banks? Half the banks are good and half are bad. We should not throw out the good to punish the bad.

282 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:16:16pm

re: #255 zombie

I should probably clarify that comment, since not everyone is familiar with the history of 1932:

Hoovervilles

Bonus Army riot

Thanks for the clarification.
I was aware of the "Hoovervilles", but clueless about the "Bonus Army".
Douglas McArthur, no less!

283 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:16:32pm

re: #267 buzzsawmonkey

The routing of the Bonus Army with tanks and bayonets was still fresh in the public mind when Warner Brothers put out this finale to "Golddiggers of 1932": Remember My Forgotten Man.

Watch.

It was also sort of mentioned in a film favorite of yours, "Gabriel Over the White House," the pro-totalitarian film.

284 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:16:50pm

re: #273 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dirk and OR,

In order to properly respond to your concerns, I am naming you both cabinet heads. Dirk will be in charge of Internal Security and Intelligence. OR will be responsible for National Police Service and Investigations. Due to an unfortunate overlapping of duties, you will both be forced to compete for the same resources and jurisdictional disputes will be a daily occurence, though you should easily be able to manage those by keeping a careful watch on each other thru a network of informants. If either of you fail in your duties, then the Palace Guard will be sent in to liquidate you and your staffs, as well as your extended families. Congratulations on your new duties and let me be the first to wish you good luck.

Gosh, I hate to be the one to break the news, but... Dirk Diggler just suffered an unusual and, alas, fatal ice-climbing accident while visiting Mexico City. I've already taken the liberty of having him airbrushed out of all the photos of official Kragaristan state functions, I hope you don't mind.

285 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:17:25pm

Newt Gingrich was on Fox last night, calling Hank Paulson names, saying the whole bailout so far is "crony capitalism".

That may be a tad harsh, but it's hard not to agree overall.

286 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:17:33pm

re: #240 Nevergiveup

My vote is address the nation and tell the MSM were to go and were to stick it. Now that is what I would do. But I have no class and President Bush does so...


Will Obama let the Bush's fly Airforce One home , like Bush allowed the Clintons?

287 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:17:40pm

re: #238 Walter L. Newton

Fine, ignore what I just posted. I just made that up. Really, why don't you address what I posted, I wasn't just pulling that ouot of my ass for the fun of it.

It's true, it's fact, and it stinks. gas is down, prices are still going up, what gives?

King Soopers or Safeway? The Kroger is usually cheaper. Also, you can try Costco, buying in bulk sometimes saves alot. Mrs. Desert, in addition to being Super Mom, Wonder Worker and Sexy as Heck, is also Coupon Queen. She saves the Dog House loads of money by looking for sales, collecting coupons, etc, etc. We have (3 kids 2 of which are ravenous teenagers with bottomless stomachs), her and I and her parents for 1/2 of the year...we spend a lot of food, but we can stretch the dollars by shopping smartly. Food prices should go down, the cost of getting them to the stores has been reduced...

288 zato  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:18:09pm

Maybe its a ponzi scheme- politicians feed the execs (by bailing out their banks) and the execs contribute $$ to the politicians' campaign. Shouldn't there be a law prohibiting the recipients of taxpayer money from contributing to political campaigns?

289 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:18:09pm

OT:
Great moments in NYT publishing.

NYT admits it got fooled.

In an editor's note posted Monday on its Web site, the Times said the letter signed by Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe should not have been published because it violated the paper's standards and procedures.

"We have already expressed our regrets to Mr. Delanoe's office and we are now doing the same to you, our readers," the Times said.

News of the hoax was first reported by France-Amerique, which published a story on its Web site Monday. Editor-in-chief Jean-Cosme Delaloye said an employee of the French language monthly, which is based in New York City, read it Monday morning and was skeptical.

"When we read the letter it just sounded very surprising, the choice of words sounded very surprising," he told The Associated Press. "When we called Paris to verify the information ... they were very surprised."

Virginie Christnacht, head of Delanoe's press office in Paris, told the AP the letter was a fake.

"We have asked The New York Times for a denial and an apology," she said. "Clearly, this was never sent by Bertrand Delanoe."

Clearly, if the Times was in the business of fact checking, it would never have run the piece in the first place. If it were so clear. /

290 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:18:20pm

re: #286 opnion

Will Obama let the Bush's fly Airforce One home , like Bush allowed the Clintons?

Nope - Michelle will be needing it.

291 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:18:24pm

re: #244 HoosierHoops

I was alittle worried about you..usually heater problems are fixed pretty quick.
Good luck and get warm!

We had to get the whole furnace replaced. I can tolerate the cold much more than, say, having no air-conditioning during the summer. It must be my Russian ancestry. My husband, however, is from the Holy Land (an authentic Palestinian) and suffers much from cold weather.

292 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:19:15pm

re: #92 DeafDog

Did you miss my last question. I was wondering if your career in IT is connected to any of the industries that benefitted from the bailouts, car company money, and money that DC has handed out in the last 3 months?

293 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:19:18pm
294 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:19:40pm

re: #259 Wishing

If you are tagging a commercial on...shouldn't you have at least asked?

Hey, I don't blog-pimp in the spinoffs.

295 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:19:49pm

re: #273 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dirk and OR,

In order to properly respond to your concerns, I am naming you both cabinet heads. Dirk will be in charge of Internal Security and Intelligence. OR will be responsible for National Police Service and Investigations. Due to an unfortunate overlapping of duties, you will both be forced to compete for the same resources and jurisdictional disputes will be a daily occurence, though you should easily be able to manage those by keeping a careful watch on each other thru a network of informants. If either of you fail in your duties, then the Palace Guard will be sent in to liquidate you and your staffs, as well as your extended families. Congratulations on your new duties and let me be the first to wish you good luck.

It will be nice to have a responsible government for a change...you know, one run on fear, rather than bribery!

296 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:20:00pm

re: #287 Desert Dog

Safeway is overpriced everywhere, including Chicago, where they operate as Dominick's. Some products have more than a dollar difference in price between there and the Meijer up the road.

297 jcbunga  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:20:04pm

re: #285 itellu3times

Newt Gingrich was on Fox last night, calling Hank Paulson names, saying the whole bailout so far is "crony capitalism".

That may be a tad harsh, but it's hard not to agree overall.

Newt didn't go far enough. I've seen capitalism and this ain't it.

298 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:20:10pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

I will volunteer, if necessary.

I have been seriously pissed about executive compensation issues for some years, have written WSJ a number of rude letters when they try to defend nine or ten digit compensation packages. And that has all come home to roost bigtime with the hedge funds et al. Don't think this is any kind of workable capitalism, it ain't. I'll argue this at length, sometime, if need be.

299 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:21:09pm

re: #290 yma o hyd

Nope - Michelle will be needing it.

I think that the Obama's might want payback for not getting to move into Blair House early. I could be wrong, but I don't see them being gracious.

300 Wishing  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:21:21pm

re: #294 Alouette

Hey, I don't blog-pimp in the spinoffs.

I dont either...it isnt a blog. LOLOL

301 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:21:23pm

re: #277 Spiny Norman

What you in Colorado are experiencing is what we in California experienced 40 years ago.

Welcome to the club.

Where the hell did those guys come from 40 years ago?
I was stationed at NAS Miramar (when I wasn't floating) from 68-72, and never noticed "immigration" much.
I did, however, miss the warning signs that the "peace movement" brought.

302 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:21:36pm

re: #297 jcbunga

Newt didn't go far enough. I've seen capitalism and this ain't it.

Agreed, see my next post re: #298.

303 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:21:40pm

re: #296 Honorary Yooper

Safeway is overpriced everywhere, including Chicago, where they operate as Dominick's. Some products have more than a dollar difference in price between there and the Meijer up the road.

I will support that. The same produce I get at the little street vendors costs 3 times as much at Safeway. I have 2 food sources now, Costco and the farmer's market/street vendors.

304 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:22:11pm

re: #299 opnion

I think that the Obama's might want payback for not getting to move into Blair House early. I could be wrong, but I don't see them being gracious.

Heh.
'Gracious' is certainly not a character trait I'd use to describe either of them.

305 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:22:18pm

re: #297 jcbunga

Newt didn't go far enough. I've seen capitalism and this ain't it.

No, it's not at all. There's a vast world of difference between loans and load guarantees, and just forking the money over. The bailout to the banks struck me as just forking money over, no questions asked, no requirements required.

306 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:22:38pm

So, the whole "He's gonna make you get up and help, etc etc," schtick was BS?

307 DeafDog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:23:15pm

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

Did you miss my last question. I was wondering if your career in IT is connected to any of the industries that benefitted from the bailouts, car company money, and money that DC has handed out in the last 3 months?


I answered a direct "No" to that question.

#171

308 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:23:16pm

re: #299 opnion

I think that the Obama's might want payback for not getting to move into Blair House early. I could be wrong, but I don't see them being gracious.

If they are followed by a GOP President, I think the Clinton vandalism will look like amateur night.

309 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:24:30pm

re: #286 opnion

Will Obama let the Bush's fly Airforce One home , like Bush allowed the Clintons?

Since the Obamas aren't being allowed to take up residence in Blair House ahead of the traditional date (it's already booked up!), my guess is, ahhh...

No.

310 joncelli  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:24:48pm

IRS: Mr. Joncelli, can you account for this massive discrepancy on your tax return?

Joncelli: [sniffs, leans back in his chair] I decline to account for it.

IRS: [smiles wickedly] Then say hello to Bubba, he'll be your boyfriend for 5 to 10 years...

311 Desert Dog  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:24:48pm

re: #303 rawmuse

I will support that. The same produce I get at the little street vendors costs 3 times as much at Safeway. I have 2 food sources now, Costco and the farmer's market/street vendors.

Farmer's Markets are really good sources for cheap, local food...kinda tough in places like Colorado in December though...They have a bunch in the summer months.

312 Silhouette  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:25:33pm

re: #309 Spiny Norman

Since the Obamas aren't being allowed to take up residence in Blair House ahead of the traditional date (it's already booked up!), my guess is, ahhh...

In their world, "equality" has always meant special treatment. I'm sure real equality looks like offense.

313 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:25:50pm

re: #303 rawmuse

I will support that. The same produce I get at the little street vendors costs 3 times as much at Safeway. I have 2 food sources now, Costco and the farmer's market/street vendors.

[light bulb goes on over head]

Wait a minute... competition... lowering prices... we may be onto something here!

314 maddogg  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:26:16pm

re: #305 Honorary Yooper

No, it's not at all. There's a vast world of difference between loans and load guarantees, and just forking the money over. The bailout to the banks struck me as just forking money over, no questions asked, no requirements required.

I see it in the same light as giving money to a panhandler. All you are doing is enabling his condition to endure.

315 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:26:38pm

OR,

Gosh, I hate to be the one to break the news, but... Dirk Diggler just suffered an unusual and, alas, fatal ice-climbing accident while visiting Mexico City. I've already taken the liberty of having him airbrushed out of all the photos of official Kragaristan state functions, I hope you don't mind.

Check the dental records next time, you duplicitous schmuck! For personal security reasons I employ dozens of look alikes (like the one you just killed).

316 jcbunga  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:26:49pm

re: #312 Silhouette

In their world, "equality" has always meant special treatment. I'm sure real equality looks like offense.

Yes. Some of us are more equal than others :)

317 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:27:13pm

re: #304 yma o hyd

Heh.
'Gracious' is certainly not a character trait I'd use to describe either of them.


Ah, then you do not see this as a restoration of Camelot?

318 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:27:15pm

re: #252 Spiny Norman

I wonder what the total salaries of MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL players was for last year.

If someone starts ranting about 'Big Corporations' ask them the name of their favorite sports team.

Then let them rant a little more.

Then ask them where is their favorite convenience store.

They may look a little confused. (Now here is the rub:)

Within their next 2 sentences the word Exxon will be spoken. 100% guaranteed.

319 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:28:09pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton


You're getting it right up the rear and you are smiling.

Now, I take offense. That was over the top.
I have done everything that I am allowed to do in a lawful and peaceful society.
We at LGF are forbidden from discussing "other means", if you will.
My rear is a ONE WAY orifice, BTW.

320 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:28:54pm

re: #317 opnion

Ah, then you do not see this as a restoration of Camelot?

Camelot?

Gimme a break, mun - where's the style, never mind the substance.

321 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:29:35pm

re: #297 jcbunga

Newt didn't go far enough. I've seen capitalism and this ain't it.

A few days (threads * days) ago, Newt was getting trashed because of the asinine commercial he and Nancy Pelosi did on global warming. He did something else "out of character", also, but I forgot what that was.

I didn't have the 'nads to jump in, but my take on the global warming thing was that Newt saw it as better to "join" so the direction could be altered, rather than criticize and be lumped in with the "denyers". At that time, being lumped into the group denying global warming was instantly fatal.

I would remark, though, that Newt will still bluntly criticize what he perceives to be completely wrong if there is no way to redirect something.

322 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:29:48pm

re: #308 Silhouette

If they are followed by a GOP President, I think the Clinton vandalism will look like amateur night.

I suspect that you are right. I have visions of the Obamas visting foreign heads of state & Michelle pointing at a piece of jewlery or furniture & saying,"Can I have that?"

323 Occasional Reader  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:29:53pm

re: #315 Dirk Diggler

OR,


Check the dental records next time, you duplicitous schmuck! For personal security reasons I employ dozens of look alikes (like the one you just killed).

Dear Dirk Diggler Look-Alike: Please stop posting using the name of our dearly departed workers' hero Dirk Diggler.

324 7wtc-baller  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:30:18pm

SOME of the people here need to actually READ the article and realzie that it is NOT talking about using bail out money for bonuses. BUt why do that when you can post non-sense based on a misleading headline?

Furthermore, just because the 'gubment' and wall street wotn disclose exaclty how they spend their money, doesnt mean theres a problem. SOme thigns are confidential, and disclosign them woudl be uncompetitive.
The level of ignorance regarding teh economy/wall street is trully appaling here. Stick to somethign you actually KNOW about. Like the middle east, and creationist 'tards. :-)

325 zombie  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:30:24pm

re: #293 buzzsawmonkey

I don't think of "Gabriel Over the White House" as a pro-totalitarian film so much as a pro-disarmament film, which it certainly is.

I'll have to scrounge a copy and refresh my memory as to how much dictatorial power the angel-President assumes, or tries to assume.

According to the wikipedia plot summary for "Gabriel Over the White House",

Summoning his Cabinet, Hammond becomes an advocate of an activist government. When the Cabinet calls for the military to be deployed against an "Army of the Unemployed" that is marching to Washington, D.C. to demand work, he refuses, firing the Secretary of State when he threatens to resign in response. After the leader of the marchers is killed by racketeers, Hammond travels to the marchers' camp and announces the formation of an "Army of Construction," a massive public works program that will give a paying job to every unemployed man in America until the economy recovers.

Alarmed at Hammond's new course, his vice president and Cabinet begin plotting against him, only to receive requests for their resignation. This triggers impeachment proceedings against him in Congress, which is also corrupt and controlled by laissez-faire politicians. While in the midst of impeachment debates, Hammond appears before Congress and requests money to stimulate the economy. Facing Congressional opposition, he demands that Congress vote him extraordinary powers and to adjourn until the crisis was over. When the members of Congress denounce his request as dictatorship, Hammond threatens to declare martial law, leaving Congress little choice but to capitulate to his demands and grant him the power to enact all necessary measures, unfettered by the normal system of checks and balances. Enjoying the support of the public for his actions, Hammond outlaws foreclosures, creates federal bank insurance to protect depositors, and offers subsidies to farmers.
...
Hammond retaliates by creating a special military unit called the Federal Police, to go after Diamond. Led by Hammond's top aide, Hartley Beekman (Franchot Tone), the unit corners Diamond in a warehouse and blasts him and his men out using armored cars. "Technicalities of the law" are circumvented with a brief military tribunal, also led by Beekman, that ends in the execution by firing squad of Diamond and his associates.

Finally, Hammond moves to collect the large unpaid war debts due from other nations from of the Great War. He invites the world's ambassadors to a conference on board a yacht, where, before a worldwide radio audience, he demands repayment of the debts. When the representatives protest their inability to pay, Hammond announces his country's repudiation of the naval limitations agreement, threatening a renewed arms race as a result. Staging a display of air power for the conferees by ordering naval bombers to sink two obsolete battleships, he delivers an impassioned speech on the total destruction of humanity to come in "the next war" unless they choose the alternative of using military expenditures to balance their budgets and repay their debts instead.

Sort of a blend between Roosevelt and Hitler.

326 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:30:26pm
327 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:31:48pm

re: #215 zombie

Love the history jokes.

328 ellcon  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:32:21pm

My one word?
"Duh" (But imagine it really long and drawn out)

329 opnion  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:32:34pm

re: #320 yma o hyd

Camelot?

Gimme a break, mun - where's the style, never mind the substance.

I am being extremely facetious. This ain't Jackie Kennedy.

330 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:32:40pm

re: #308 Silhouette

re: #299 opnion
I think that the Obama's might want payback for not getting to move into Blair House early. I could be wrong, but I don't see them being gracious.

If they are followed by a GOP President, I think the Clinton vandalism will look like amateur night.

Especially if it's a President Palin!

That the next President will be a Republican is a certainty. Whether s/he takes office in 2013 or 2017 depends how bad Barry's screw-ups are. Look at it this way: after the election in 1976, did anyone other than GOP diehards think they would win in 1980?

331 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:33:14pm

re: #319 rawmuse

Now, I take offense. That was over the top.
I have done everything that I am allowed to do in a lawful and peaceful society.
We at LGF are forbidden from discussing "other means", if you will.
My rear is a ONE WAY orifice, BTW.

Sorry, really.

332 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:34:01pm

re: #331 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, really.

Accepted. As you were, soldier. :)

333 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:34:10pm

re: #324 7wtc-baller

SOME of the people here need to actually READ the article and realzie that it is NOT talking about using bail out money for bonuses. BUt why do that when you can post non-sense based on a misleading headline?

Furthermore, just because the 'gubment' and wall street wotn disclose exaclty how they spend their money, doesnt mean theres a problem. SOme thigns are confidential, and disclosign them woudl be uncompetitive.
The level of ignorance regarding teh economy/wall street is trully appaling here. Stick to somethign you actually KNOW about. Like the middle east, and creationist 'tards. :-)

Well, this article will make you feel all good and warm inside...

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

334 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:34:55pm

re: #330 Spiny Norman

Especially if it's a President Palin!

That the next President will be a Republican is a certainty. Whether s/he takes office in 2013 or 2017 depends how bad Barry's screw-ups are. Look at it this way: after the election in 1976, did anyone other than GOP diehards think they would win in 1980?

Ah, why is that a certainty?

335 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:36:19pm

re: #322 opnion

I suspect that you are right. I have visions of the Obamas visting foreign heads of state & Michelle pointing at a piece of jewlery or furniture & saying,"Can I have that?"

Oh, well, I think she'll be a little less obvious than that. Her Ivy League edumacation ought to have instilled a little tact.

336 7WTC-BALLER  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:36:30pm

re: #333 Walter L. Newton

Aside from some empty assumptions, this article does what exactly?

337 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:38:35pm

What a disaster. Our elected "officials" are grade-A financial illiterates.
Let's bail out the corrupt inefficient unions and the already rich bank executives. /Great idea.

Pay to play.

338 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:41:13pm

re: #334 Walter L. Newton

Ah, why is that a certainty?

The electorate seems to need a reminder every 16 years why a Democrat in the WH is not the best thing for the country, so they elect one and learn to regret it. There haven't been 2 consecutive Democrats elected President since Roosevelt and Truman.

Besides, the voters tend to be fickle.

339 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:41:14pm

re: #336 7WTC-BALLER

Aside from some empty assumptions, this article does what exactly?

Fine... happy holiday.

340 7WTC-BALLER  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:41:52pm

re: #337 FrogMarch

Pot.Kettle.Black.

This is exactly why SOME things should not be left in the hands of the 'uneducated' democracy or not. :-)
My snobby comments aside, no one is bailing out the executives. Also, the non-bailout emthod has been tried on Fuld's Lehman brothers. That was enough.

341 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:42:22pm

re: #324 7wtc-baller

The word is "fungible".

342 7WTC-BALLER  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:42:36pm

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

Thank you, Happy Holidays to you as well.

343 7WTC-BALLER  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:44:44pm

re: #341 itellu3times
What exactly is fungible? I used to think the same way about Lehman. But, I refused to stick my head in the sand after that fiasco, and adjusted my viewpoitns accordingly.

344 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:45:32pm
345 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:46:30pm

re: #343 7WTC-BALLER

Fungible means that it can be traded without regard to contract for a thing of equal value.

346 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:46:42pm
347 kwyck44  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:53:48pm

The bailout was a bad idea. But...

1. As many have said, 2007 compensation to 2008 bailout is apples to oranges. Performance in 2007 was excellent. This thing fell apart as quickly for the banks as it did for everyone else. Could be telling to see what 2008 bonuses are, and then maybe the AP might have a point.

2. Wall Street is a hire and fire environment. These guys get paid a lot of money and get the boot on a regular basis. And, although $2-3 million is a lot everywhere, most of them are spending it in the costliest city in the US.

3. The execs don't "pay themselves." Boards of directors under shareholder control pay them.

4. It's not just execs benefitting directly from the bailout. New York is out a ton of tax revenue. College grads can't get jobs. Cleaning staff, restaurants, travel providers, security personel, secretaries, janitors... These people should have gone down just like the bankers, instead of getting a bailout.

5. Bailouts. Yuck.

348 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 1:56:39pm

re: #346 buzzsawmonkey

Do Not Taunt Happy Fungible!

Looks like a "rotating title" to me, buzz.

;^)

349 No. Just, no.  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 2:02:07pm

The CEO at my husband's company voluntarily is taking a salary of $1 this year. If he can post a profit in these times, I think he's entitled to all the bonuses he wants, especially since that would probably mean my husband would still be employed.

350 J'accuzzi  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 2:11:46pm

An honest banker would have said "We're using it to kite the float same as always". Would you like a nice no collateral, low interest loan to get off our case?"

351 leslein  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 2:12:36pm

Credit Suisse has an ingenuous way to compensate its executives:

"Credit Suisse is paying its top executives in illiquid mortgage-backed securities. I've no doubt that someone, somewhere, will find a way to complain that it's not fair, but it strikes me as a very good idea. If the things really are any good, they make money; if not, they take a bath along with the rest of us. "

[Link: meganmcardle.theatlantic.com...]

352 Catttt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 2:13:33pm

re: #274 looking closely

And this is exactly why the failing banks shouldn't be bailed out. Why reward the ones who had bad business judgment?

I couldn't agree with you more. And I called my senators and my congressman, all of whom are liberal twits, and told them so. They ignored me, as usual.

353 karmasherabwangchuk  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 2:18:53pm

via Kevin Philips on Cspan2 last week. If you are too big to fail you are a public utility and should be regulated like one including executive comp.

354 rumcrook  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 3:31:44pm

I say let them be paid whatever bonus's they can get.

but the rest of us should be allowed to go to walmart and buy hunting licenses on them.

355 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 4:05:05pm

According to a friend who watches such things: a lot of the banks that received these funds have foreign subsidiaries that were in even worse shape than their American counterparts, thanks to massive undercapitalization and leverage that is permitted in Europe and Asia, but isn't tolerated even by investment banks here.

So what has happened to a big chunk of American taxpayer dough is: it was sent overseas to keep foreign banks afloat.

No wonder the banks don't want to talk about it.

This last is completely unconscionable. It's public money, and the public - you know, the people who forked it over - have every right to know how it is being spent. If there are any Congressmen out there with even a shred of morals left, they will be demanding a full, public accounting of how this money was spent.

Not that that's going to happen anytime soon. I have a strong suspicion that another huge pile of that unaccounted-for money went straight back into various campaign funds, where it will buy silence and collusion.

It's times like this that I wish the United States had a functioning press, that would follow the money on this no matter where it might lead.

356 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 4:06:56pm

re: #353 karmasherabwangchuk

via Kevin Philips on Cspan2 last week. If you are too big to fail you are a public utility and should be regulated like one including executive comp.

That's part of the price of taking government handouts. If you don't like that degree of regulation and oversight, you're free to decline.

But like press gangs of old: if you take the King's money, you're in the King's service.

357 pink freud  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 4:49:13pm

Bastidges.

/gone all day but had to throw my .02 in.

358 So?  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 5:39:59pm

I've given all this bailout business some thought. And it's clear to me that there has been a trade-off. The American fast lane lifestyle has beaten out American values. It's permeates the culture from show biz, to sports, to corporate Ceos. Everybody wants to be on the cover of People magazine, make hundreds of millions and live in a mansion the size of Mt. Everest.

So the whole fiasco with the banks, wall street, the auto industry, etc is no big shocker. Just look at any TV, magazine or newspaper ad. Beautiful rich people hanging out with other beautiful rich people. The day I saw deserts going for $2000-$4000 in some fancy NY gourmet restaurant, I knew it was all over. We had reached the height of decadence. Even John Q Public who is paying for this mess is not totally innocent. Who went out and paid $1000 for Madonna tickets, $500 for a basketball game...etc. etc. The life of the rich and famous has become the American dream. Being rich is no longer good enough, you have to be filthy rich, then even filthier to keep up the filthiest.

---So?

--So?

359 Palandine  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 7:41:03pm

re: #26 faraway

It's sad that commenters here would sound like good Marxists. These are salaries and bonuses at 116 banks. Are you saying no salaries should be paid? We should have a limit on salaries? Who sets these limits? Obama? The UN?

Think about what you are saying here.

Most people who get bonuses get them for success. If you work for a failing enterprise, you don't get a bonus. Indeed, keeping up with the bloated paychecks and bonuses because "that's how it's always been done" is definitely close to Socialism.

Me, I can be bought out for $30,000. That's the price of a piece of land I have my eye on. I'll even stimulate the economy by building a cabin on it.

C'mon, Mr. Obama--your confident smile and kind eyes are an inspiration to us all.

/

360 7WTC-BALLER  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 8:23:49pm

re: #359 Palandine

Read the article, instead relying on an AP headline (didnt expect to see such poor judgement at LGF of all places) They are talking about 2007 bonuses, when Goldman Sachs for example earned record profits (while totally avoiding the subprime mess)

361 7WTC-BALLER  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 8:43:06pm

re: #87 Cattt

Lol, rating agency? ;--)

362 Catttt  Mon, Dec 22, 2008 9:27:14pm

re: #361 7WTC-BALLER

Lol, rating agency? ;--)

"Lol," no. And no more guesses.

363 Marlin925  Tue, Dec 23, 2008 7:35:33am

re: #62 zombie

Good story about the chitsticks in action. Yeah, this victim sounds like an EEVIL capitalist exploiter of the masses: "They made a mess," said Monica Yuen, owner of San Francisco Glass Works, a kiosk selling delicate imported crystal earrings, bracelets and other jewelry. She was trying to assess the damage to her wares.

Property owners ought to be allowed to shoot these bastards on sight.


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