‘Innocent’ Gazans Suffering

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Middle East • Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:31 am PST • Views: 275

The Washington Post has a story about the terror inflicted on ordinary Palestinians by Israel’s airstrikes on Hamas targets, and the growing humanitarian crisis: Food and Medical Supplies Grow Scarce in the Gaza Strip.

NIR AM, Israel, Dec. 28 — The family of Um Shadi al-Bardaweel did not sleep. The Israeli airstrikes and the explosions, the sirens and the screams of strangers outside their house near the Shati refugee camp in the Gaza Strip kept them awake into the predawn hours Sunday.

At the first light of dawn, the mother of five sent her son to the bakery to buy bread. Hundreds of Palestinians had the same idea, joining a never-ending line. “There’s no food in the market,” Bardaweel explained in an interview with a reporter. Her son did not return until nightfall.

Then came another airstrike close to their camp, rocking the house and shattering the windows. “Our children started screaming in a crazy way,” she recalled. “After each airstrike, my sons ask me: ‘Why are we targeted? Will they arrest us? Will they come after us?’ I tell them not to panic. We are far away from the shelling. But then tonight, the bombing reached our doorsteps.”

At some point, though, don’t we need to ask, “How innocent are those ordinary Gazan civilians, anyway?” Just two weeks ago, tens of thousands of these civilians attended an enormous Hamas rally glorifying the Qassam rockets they launch into Israel. The entertainment was an ugly “play” in which a Palestinian dressed as kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was “humiliated” onstage.

How innocent is this? Is “the family of Um Shadi al-Bardaweel” somewhere in this cheering crowd?

Instead of crying when Israel finally takes action against the terrorists of Hamas, the family of Um Shadi al-Bardaweel would better serve themselves and their society if they stopped voting for and supporting those terrorists. If that ever happens, they won’t need to ask, “Why are we targeted?” — a question for which they should already know the answer.

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371 comments

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1 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:32:15am

You mean the ones with the rocket launchers in the Rec Room?

2 Macker  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:33:12am

Yawwwnnn...

3 JammieWearingFool  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:33:15am

Heartbreaking, isn't it?

4 bosforus  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:33:50am

Going green never looked so unappealing.

5 Mike in Georgia  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:34:07am

They think they are suffering now, just wait till Cynthia gets
there.

6 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:34:36am

Let me see... it is perfectly proper for the Ham-ass Liberation Fighters to launch countless rockets into high-value targets such as civilian homes, schools, synagogues and the like, while it is horrible to retaliate... Did I get that right?

///

7 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:34:59am
Shati refugee camp in the Gaza Strip

Arabs have sole control of Gaza for years now, why is there still a "refugee camp" there?

8 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:35:00am

By voting Hamas into power the Palestinians voted for war against Israel.

Now they've got the war they voted for.

9 Cygnus  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:35:08am

re: #1 rawmuse

You mean the ones with the rocket launchers in the Rec Room?

Everybody needs a hobby.

10 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:35:16am

The only possible "innocents" are the children and they're suffering due to their parents actions.

11 pat  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:36:53am

Let them eat what they have sown.

12 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:37:09am

Here is a more serious question:

With that many Hamas supporters in one space in the open, why wasn't there a massive artillery barrage/air strike launched?

13 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:37:40am
“After each airstrike, my sons ask me: ‘Why are we targeted? Will they arrest us? Will they come after us?’ ..."

Contrast that with this:

193 ashan12/29/2008 10:10:48 am PST 1

I happened to see the Arab video report earlier today that was later reported on Israel's Channel 2: Rescuers in Gaza were pulling a 13-year-old girl from the rubble of bombed building. A microphone was pushed forward toward the girl, and she was asked, "Who do you blame for this?" She answered, "Hamas." Cut.

14 faraway  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:37:46am

Hamas is so gay.

Never any women around (unless they are covered up)

They are all so color coordinated.

They always hide behind women and children and never fight like a man.

15 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:38:32am

Innocent Gazans suffering? Hardly. There was enough food and humanitarian aid coming into Gaza. Hamas has been taking their customary cut after all.

There is still aid going into Gaza via Israel, despite the fact that Hamas continues bombarding Israel with kassams and mortars.

The Palestinians chose this outcome when they voted for Hamas. They stood by Hamas when they launched the last rocket war, which led to the hudna whereby Hamas regrouped and rearmed, all while continuing to fire kassams and mortars at Israel while loudly proclaiming that Israel violated and broke the terms when they took out Hamas thugs carrying out terror operations.

The Palestinians have had opportunities to choose another path. They could have chosen peace. They had the opportunity in 2005. They chose the more violent of the two terrorist groups - Hamas. They bear the ultimate responsibility for what is happening.

Perhaps, if Gazans decide to no longer allow Hamas to use them as human shields, to no longer accept the indoctrination and forcible use of women and children as cannon fodder, to no longer allow terror propaganda and to repudiate the honorifics of terrorists and mass murderers as martyrs for jihad, the Palestinians might have a chance.

Of course, it will be a snowball's chance in hell before any of that will happen - so thoroughly indoctrinated are the Gazans in the way of jihad.

16 Pietr  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:38:55am

re: #11 pat

Let them eat what they have sown.

Hmmm...Lead, copper, iron/steel and H/E-might've helped if they planted some veggies, as well.

17 bungie  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:39:01am

Israel has to stop worrying so much about what the rest of the world thinks. (Does Putin worry about what the rest of the world thinks?)

The liberals are afraid of a backlash leading to antisemitism but by definition antisemitism means they are going to be against you no matter what you do.

18 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:39:26am

re: #7 Opinionated

Arabs have sole control of Gaza for years now, why is there still a "refugee camp" there?

Talk to the UN. UNRWA would be out of a job if the refugee camps were closed. They're there because UNRWA thinks that these people are going to one day be resettled somewhere inside Israel.

19 maddogg  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:39:40am

Gee. thats tough.

20 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:39:59am

re: #14 faraway

Arabs never fight like men. They make the French look like superheroes. At least the French had the Foreign Legion. Hamas has nothing but a bunch of homemade rockets and a lot of hot air coming from some mullah's piehole.

21 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:40:02am

re: #16 Pietr

Hmmm...Lead, copper, iron/steel and H/E-might've helped if they planted some veggies, as well.

If they hadn't torn up those nice greenhouses, maybe they could have.

22 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:40:26am
23 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:40:39am

These are times when the circle from actions to consequences are brief.

24 faraway  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:40:55am

Hamas does have a nice scarf they are proud of. So cute.

25 Mr Spiffy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:41:02am

re: #15 lawhawk

What you said

26 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:41:20am
27 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:41:32am

Operation Cast Lead

The Jerusalem Post Internet Edition JPost.com - Israel's most read English web-site and most recognized Israeli media brand around the world - is conducting an international online survey about Israel's operation in the Gaza Strip.

JPost.com will provide the results of this survey to major media in around the world, including the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Sunday Times, The Associated Press and Drudge Report.

Don't miss this opportunity to let your voice be heard! Many media outlets and national leaders are interested in your opinion.

Vote today!

28 doppelganglander  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:41:57am

Aren't these the same people who justify targeting Israeli civilians, including children, by saying no Jews can be innocent because they oppose Islam? Let them rot, I say.

29 jhrhv  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:43:10am

Son: Mommy why do the evil Zionists target us.

Mother: Because our beneficent leaders thought it wise to put a missile launching pad in our backyard beside the weapons dump.

30 Mr Spiffy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:43:25am

re: #20 Jetpilot1101

At least the French had the Foreign Legion.

The French Foreign Legion wasn't French.They were foreign nationals.

31 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:43:35am

re: #20 Jetpilot1101

Arabs never fight like men. They make the French look like superheroes. At least the French had the Foreign Legion. Hamas has nothing but a bunch of homemade rockets and a lot of hot air coming from some mullah's piehole.

Arab society prevents them from being able to wage a successful war against a modern army. They can only win wars of attrition thru unconventional tactics and political maneuvering.

32 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:43:39am

"there's no food in the market" because the hatred of your people trumps everything else. Infrastructure, food, education, enlightenment all take a back seat to the hate-machine.


But of course blaming Israel is the easy way out for the WaPO.

33 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:43:57am

We re-watched the first Terminator movie recently.

The guy from the future is trying to explain the Terminator.

It looks human but you can't reason with it. You can't appeal to it. It isn't human. It's just wants to kill.

A fitting description of the those things that only look human that Israel is fighting.

And fuck the Washington Post and others like them.

34 Dave the.....  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:43:58am
“After each airstrike, my sons ask me: ‘Why are we targeted? Will they arrest us? Will they come after us?’ ..."

Said the Bugher Miester's son after being lead through the death camp in April 1945.

Lawhawk, # 15

Innocent Gazans suffering? Hardly. There was enough food and humanitarian aid coming into Gaza. Hamas has been taking their customary cut after all

.


Yep, it's the 2nd biggest welfare state in the world (behind Detroit).

35 RaiderDan  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:44:30am

Once again the liberal media brings out its "Palestinians as Victims" template.

See also: "Republicans As Racists" template

"Minorities as Victims" template

"Israel as Aggressors" template

"Republicans as Party of Rich" template

"Democrats as Party of People" template

"Guns Cause Violence" template

any I missed?

36 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:44:35am

re: #30 Mr Spiffy

The French Foreign Legion wasn't French.They were foreign nationals.

I did not know that. Then I guess all the French had was a white flag. They still make Hamas look like superheroes.

37 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:44:45am

They elected a terrorist state.

How innocent is that?

(Surprised Israel waited so long, actually. But Hamas' announcing the end of the latest hudna is just not to be ignored.)

38 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:45:44am

Probably no relation (I am not sure how common the name is), but there is a Hamas "official" called Salah Al-Bardaweel.

Hope this is an okay source

39 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:46:22am

re: #37 Dar ul Harb

They elected a terrorist state.

How innocent is that?

(Surprised Israel waited so long, actually. But Hamas' announcing the end of the latest hudna is just not to be ignored.)

Bring on the tanks!

40 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:46:24am

I take lots of comfort and solace in the fact that the guy speaking at the podium at the beginning of the clip might very well be dead by now. =)

41 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:47:39am

re: #38 Bloodnok

Probably no relation (I am not sure how common the name is), but there is a Hamas "official" called Salah Al-Bardaweel.

Hope this is an okay source

He appears quite frequently as a "Hamas Spokesman" but as Charles has pointed out in the past, I think, there are many. I am not implying it's him.

42 kestrel  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:47:47am

Remember when Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians to enable
the "Peace Process?" Remember when the Palestinians took over
the found acres of Israeli greenhouses full of vegetables? Remember
when the Palestinians let those greenhouses deteriorate and let
the vegetables rot? Remember when the Palestinians called for
UN assistance because they couldn't feed themselves?

Remember when Hamas fired 3,000 rockets into Israel this year
and the media said that Israel has overreacted to the outrage
by killing a few hundred Hamas terrorists?

Israel gave Gaza away and look what appeasement has gotten it.
A lesson for the United States...will we learn from it?

43 Taqyia2Me  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:47:52am

F*** Hamas and the death cult they rode in on.

44 dhg4  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:47:59am

re: #15 lawhawk

Innocent Gazans suffering? Hardly. There was enough food and humanitarian aid coming into Gaza. Hamas has been taking their customary cut after all.

There is still aid going into Gaza via Israel, despite the fact that Hamas continues bombarding Israel with kassams and mortars.

The Palestinians chose this outcome when they voted for Hamas. They stood by Hamas when they launched the last rocket war, which led to the hudna whereby Hamas regrouped and rearmed, all while continuing to fire kassams and mortars at Israel while loudly proclaiming that Israel violated and broke the terms when they took out Hamas thugs carrying out terror operations.

The Palestinians have had opportunities to choose another path. They could have chosen peace. They had the opportunity in 2005. They chose the more violent of the two terrorist groups - Hamas. They bear the ultimate responsibility for what is happening.

Perhaps, if Gazans decide to no longer allow Hamas to use them as human shields, to no longer accept the indoctrination and forcible use of women and children as cannon fodder, to no longer allow terror propaganda and to repudiate the honorifics of terrorists and mass murderers as martyrs for jihad, the Palestinians might have a chance.

Of course, it will be a snowball's chance in hell before any of that will happen - so thoroughly indoctrinated are the Gazans in the way of jihad.

Plus those evil Zionists are sending medical supplies into Gaza!

45 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:48:11am

The think I fear most from this attack is that the Israeli voters will reward Kadima and Labor for this action, forgetting the last several years and that it was Kadima and Labor who brought this all about by their catastrophic withdrawal and surrender of Gaza to the barbarians in the first place.

46 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:48:20am

Well said.

47 Opilio  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:48:35am

Anyone notice the by-line on that story?

Food and Medical Supplies Grow Scarce in the Gaza Strip
  By Sudarsan Raghavan and Islam Abdel Kareem
  Washington Post Foreign Service

jus' sayin'

48 maddogg  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:48:44am

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Arab society prevents them from being able to wage a successful war against a modern army. They can only win wars of attrition thru unconventional tactics and political maneuvering.

Thats true. And brings into the question the wisdom of attempting to force democracy on them.

49 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:48:52am

Israel MUST make public demands that can be met.

They have not.

This is no way to run a war.

50 Pietr  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:48:58am

re: #27 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Took 4 attempts, but I'm wearing my "I voted" sticker"...

51 ornery elephant  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:49:12am

The palestinians freely elected a terror organization, Hamas, to run their land. And now, they complain about lack of food, jobs, medicines, heating oil? I mean, it would be like an American citizen of free will casting his or her vote for a Socialist and then a couple of years later complaining that his/her wealth had been spread around...oh wait...umm...never mind.

52 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:49:41am
53 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:50:08am

Terror groups can't exist past a single incident without accomodators, supporters, facilitators, and apologists.

54 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:50:50am
55 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:51:00am

I've no sympathy for those who elected Hamas. Not a Wit. Let them deal with the consequences

56 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:51:09am

re: #53 Thanos

Terror groups can't exist past a single incident without accomodators, supporters, facilitators, and apologists.

And your point is?

57 Victrola  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:51:11am

re: #22 Wyatt Earp

Careful, now. Certain posters get their panties in wad when you go suggesting tactics like these.

58 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:51:30am
59 jcbunga  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:51:45am

Am I mistaken or didn't Arafat have millions salted away? Where's the money and the outrage?

60 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:52:21am

re: #56 itellu3times

And your point is?

The same that Charles made above. Hamas has the support of Gazans, they are not blind to what they are doing so their act is a sham.

61 nyc redneck  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:52:31am

the 'victim' mentality here is schizophrenic.
they holler for sympathy but keep up their aggressive behavior.
i think this approach is getting old.
i just heard on the radio that dingy harry reid has defended israel and their right to defend themselves.
fck that 'woe is me' b.s. from the disgusting heathens.
only the real kooks are falling for it now.

62 mfarmer1  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:52:34am

I certainly hope little creepy Saraa is ok so that we can see the next installment of "Pioneers of Tomorrow." That episode should be the bomb.

63 irongrampa  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:52:36am

So at what point will the world recognize this obscene charade for what it is?
Anyone with even marginal intelligence can see it's NEVER been about statehood, or self governance, ALWAYS about eliminating Israel and exterminating her people. Please don't tell me the rest of the planet hasn't seen through this facade, that would mean the moral compass of entire COUNTRIES is in need of drastic overhaul.

Israel should have, long ago, simply done what is necessary--something that would have meant much less cost in lives, compared to what MUST now occur. The TOTAL elimination of these terror groups will finally lay the groundwork for some kind of workable solution,continuing the same path is an unending rerun.

64 So?  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:52:49am

Can anyone say media bias?

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

The headline reads: World Reacts to Violence in Gaza

That's intersting, look at the 1st 10 photos. The series is supposed to be reaction from around the world. Yet 10 out 28 photos show Israelis beating up poor palestinians or little boys throwing rocks at the IDF.
Simply pathetic biased news coverage.

65 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:53:04am

re: #59 jcbunga

Am I mistaken or didn't Arafat have millions salted away? Where's the money and the outrage?

The millions is in a Swiss bank account. The outrage is nowhere to be found but should be directed against his gay lover who infected him with AIDS and cause his timely demise.

66 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:53:06am

re: #60 Thanos

The same that Charles made above. Hamas has the support of Gazans, they are not blind to what they are doing so their act is a sham.

And what does this suggest Israel should do?

67 maddogg  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:53:10am

Jetpilot, Dang it! You got me deleted (and I was being so careful).

68 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:53:13am

any word yet on the rumours of a ground offensive? are the IDF really going to go into that hornets nest?

69 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:53:25am

re: #16 Pietr

Hmmm...Lead, copper, iron/steel and H/E-might've helped if they planted some veggies, as well.

Well, the high-tech greenhouses were "symbols of oppression and occupation" weren't they?

(Not to mention symbols of the technical competence of a far more civilized tribe. Enjoy your "metal shops" while you can, Gazans.)

70 sambor  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:53:53am

have no fear; cynthia mckinney is on the way!

71 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:54:08am

I'd appreciate it if we don't have discussions about carpet bombing. My post above is not intended to be an open door to start discussing indiscriminate bombing.

Please note: Israel is doing the exact opposite of carpet bombing. They're launching highly targeted surgical strikes trying to minimize civilian casualties.

72 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:54:31am

re: #67 maddogg

Jetpilot, Dang it! You got me deleted (and I was being so careful).

I guess I'll be next for instigating.

73 looking closely  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:54:37am

Most of the "innocent" Gazans were forcibly evicted by Israel a few years ago, when Israel dismantled all its settlements there.

74 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:54:56am

re: #71 Charles

I'd appreciate it if we don't have discussions about carpet bombing. My post above is not intended to be an open door to start discussing indiscriminate bombing.

Please note: Israel is doing the exact opposite of carpet bombing. They're launching highly targeted surgical strikes trying to minimize civilian casualties.

My bad Charles, I'll can the carpet bombing talk.

75 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:55:03am

With all that green in the video are we sure the paleostinians aren't just celebrating St. Patricks day early?

/Green beer for everyone!

76 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:55:05am

re: #65 Jetpilot1101

The millions is in a Swiss bank account. The outrage is nowhere to be found but should be directed against his gay lover who infected him with AIDS and cause his timely demise.

yeah otherwise he'd of won that second Nobel...

77 yochanan  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:55:22am

[Link: www.chicagobreakingnews.com...]

fire bomb tossed at reform temple, minor damage, the funny thing is this is one of the most liberal temples in chicago. so much for that helping you liberals.

78 opnion  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:55:25am

It is a bit ironic to see the provoked take the criticism while the provocateur gets sympathy.

79 faraway  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:56:11am

re: #64 So?

Can anyone say media bias?

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

The headline reads: World Reacts to Violence in Gaza

That's intersting, look at the 1st 10 photos. The series is supposed to be reaction from around the world. Yet 10 out 28 photos show Israelis beating up poor palestinians or little boys throwing rocks at the IDF.
Simply pathetic biased news coverage.

Why do we keep using the word "bias"? The media* is now fully "corrupt".

80 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:56:18am
81 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:56:47am

more pallywood

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]


photo no 2 in the slide show.. classic pallywood
"woman in front of bombed building, with arms spread out"...

82 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:57:00am

Kokidz spreading Hamas propaganda...
Gaza massacre continues

The death toll is now at least 320, with over 1,000 people wounded. According to UNRWA at least 51 civilians have been killed, an estimate that is "conservative and it is certainly rising". In fact most of the casualities appear to be civilian police.
...
Most of the casualities have been civilians, it continues, including at least 20 children. The PCHR notes that the timing of the attacks, which "coincided with the end of the morning period and the beginning of the afternoon period at schools, many of which are located near police stations", indicates "that an Israeli decision was taken to cause maximum casualties in the climax of daily activities".

83 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:57:02am

re: #30 Mr Spiffy

The French Foreign Legion wasn't French. They were foreign nationals.

Well, they were brave, with was foreign to the French.

84 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:57:09am

Hezbollah ground and rocket offensive into Northern Israel in 5, 4, 3, 2, ...

85 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:57:11am

re: #60 Thanos

The same that Charles made above. Hamas has the support of Gazans, they are not blind to what they are doing so their act is a sham.

What act is a sham? It's not a sham, it's Islam, they are entitled to attack the Jews. Their suffering is real enough. Sure, there's a disconnect there, but just what is anyone suggesting be done about it?

I want to see someone demand the Palestinians be treated like civilized, adult human beings who must be called on to surrender, and given a way to do so. How could they surrender now? Yes, by not firing missiles, but is that really all that is being asked? It does not seem enough, or appropriate, or something.

I'm not saying I have all (or any) answers, but I'm working on the questions.

86 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:57:26am

Perhaps the real supplies that are growing scarce in Gaza are gunpowder, explosives, mortars, rockets, and the terrorists to man them? /

That would explain the need to highlight the fact that no one is starving in Gaza, medical and humanitarian aid is freely available and accessible but for Hamas continuing to deprive the Gazans of those goods and services.

87 Kenneth  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:57:34am

Another group of "innocent civilians" cruelly targetted for bombing.

88 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:58:16am

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Kokidz spreading Hamas propaganda...
Gaza massacre continues

No accounting for the use of time zones apparently.

89 Opilio  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:58:22am

Doesn't Gaza have a 20-mile seacoast? Can't their Arab brethren convoy in food and medicine from the sea? They never seem to run out of parts for their rockets.

90 faraway  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:58:23am

Why doesn't Israel ask for "unconditional surrender"?

91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:58:46am

re: #71 Charles

I'd appreciate it if we don't have discussions about carpet bombing. My post above is not intended to be an open door to start discussing indiscriminate bombing.

Please note: Israel is doing the exact opposite of carpet bombing. They're launching highly targeted surgical strikes trying to minimize civilian casualties.

There's nothing wrong with carpet bombing per se - against cities, probably not such a good thing, but enemy forces out in the open, we've been doing that ourselves in Iraq & Afghanistan.

92 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:05am

Please vote on this proposal.
Do not call it Gazastan or Hamasistan or Gazan Palestine, it is Philistine these are the Philistines, the same unsavory crowd whose name became a bywords for stupid boorish and self destructive behavior 3,000 years ago.

93 Macker  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:22am

re: #62 mfarmer1

Ha ha ha!

94 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:32am

re: #71 Charles

I'd appreciate it if we don't have discussions about carpet bombing. My post above is not intended to be an open door to start discussing indiscriminate bombing.

Please note: Israel is doing the exact opposite of carpet bombing. They're launching highly targeted surgical strikes trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Sorry Charles, I was out of line. I apologize.

95 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:35am

re: #49 itellu3times

Israel MUST make public demands that can be met.
They have not.
This is no way to run a war.

Who appointed you an authority on how Israel should fight Hamas?
Hamas has now announced that they will not stop their terror attacks against Israeli civilians. Therefore, there is nothing for Israel to demand, and the terrorists must all be hunted down and killed until they surrender and beg for peace.
That is precisely the way for Israel to run this war.

96 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:50am

re: #85 itellu3times

What act is a sham? It's not a sham, it's Islam, they are entitled to attack the Jews. Their suffering is real enough. Sure, there's a disconnect there, but just what is anyone suggesting be done about it?

I want to see someone demand the Palestinians be treated like civilized, adult human beings who must be called on to surrender, and given a way to do so. How could they surrender now? Yes, by not firing missiles, but is that really all that is being asked? It does not seem enough, or appropriate, or something.

I'm not saying I have all (or any) answers, but I'm working on the questions.

I don't have any good answers either. I think they should continue with what they are doing now for certain, take as many heads off the Hamas Hydra as they can. After? Perhaps they should bomb the Egypt side wall down, and strengthen the Israeli side. Again, there just aren't any good answers here.

97 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:50am

re: #91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

There's nothing wrong with carpet bombing per se - against cities, probably not such a good thing, but enemy forces out in the open, we've been doing that ourselves in Iraq & Afghanistan.

'Nam
B-52s from Guam.

98 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 10:59:57am

Every time you read one of these sob stories about a lack of supplies in Gaza remember this map

Image: _45333243_gaza_strip_dec08_466_update2.gif

At one end is Israel, at the other Egypt.

Why don't they get all their supplies from their beloved Arab brothers?

99 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:00:17am

re: #75 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

With all that green in the video are we sure the paleostinians aren't just celebrating St. Patricks day early?

/Green beer for everyone!

Beer is forbidden by Allah! Blowing up buses & pizza shops, however is pleasing to him.

100 yochanan  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:00:18am

i would love to see the Israeli air force buzz the hamasshole rally just to see the rats run for there holes.

101 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:00:49am

re: #49 itellu3times

Israel MUST make public demands that can be met.

They have not.

This is no way to run a war.

Is it easy to hibernate under that rock you been under?

102 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:00:53am

re: #71 Charles

I'd appreciate it if we don't have discussions about carpet bombing. My post above is not intended to be an open door to start discussing indiscriminate bombing.

Please note: Israel is doing the exact opposite of carpet bombing. They're launching highly targeted surgical strikes trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Charles, I agree.

But I'd like to make a point: (and it wasn't my post which got deleted), carpet-bombing would be an entirely valid approach to an "all-out war" which Barak recently categorized as this latest military action.

I'm not saying we should...I probably would be horrified if Israel actually ever did that. I'm just not sure if it wouldn't be appropriate in an "all-out war".

We no longer fight wars the way we did in World War II. Maybe that's a good thing morally speaking. Tactically speaking, however...I've yet to see any war actually fought with complete and utter victory for one side or the other since 1945.

103 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:01:44am

re: #44 dhg4

Plus those evil Zionists are sending medical supplies into Gaza!

Wait until they send the bill!
/sarcsarcsarcsarc

104 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:02:22am

re: #90 faraway

Why doesn't Israel ask for "unconditional surrender"?

because this time round, Israel wants to kill each and every Hamas thug until Hamas cease to exist.

105 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:04:10am

re: #102 Summer

Charles, I agree.

But I'd like to make a point: (and it wasn't my post which got deleted), carpet-bombing would be an entirely valid approach to an "all-out war" which Barak recently categorized as this latest military action.

I'm not saying we should...I probably would be horrified if Israel actually ever did that. I'm just not sure if it wouldn't be appropriate in an "all-out war".

We no longer fight wars the way we did in World War II. Maybe that's a good thing morally speaking. Tactically speaking, however...I've yet to see any war actually fought with complete and utter victory for one side or the other since 1945.

Also, that being said, I don't think discussions about it are entirely helpful. I know Israel would never do that. =) And I know, again, that I would be really probably horrified if Israel actually just went on a murderous rampage as some people in the world think they would. That's why they're better than others, because they don't do that.

I just like to debate the morality of the stance at times. Other than that, I'm a pretty peaceful girl. =)

106 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:04:20am

Charles please note that my repeated suggestions for a steady destruction of territory by massed artillery, in Gaza or earlier in Fallujah was not a call for the forced death of civilians or indiscriminate carpet bombing.

107 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:05:27am

re: #85 itellu3times

How could they surrender now? Yes, by not firing missiles, but is that really all that is being asked? It does not seem enough, or appropriate, or something.

The Hamas terrorists have announced that they will not stop the terror attacks.
Don't close your eyes to the reality.
Hamas must be eliminated.
When they stop the terror attacks and sue for peace, Israel will be ready.

108 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:05:30am

israel really needs to jam all satellite comms with gaza - yet more Hamas sob stories on channel 4 news (uk) right now... so that camera footage is somehow reaching the main western MSM agencies..

they really need to get a handle on this - otherwise they'll lose the propaganda war.

109 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:06:14am

re: #108 buzzdroid

israel really needs to jam all satellite comms with gaza - yet more Hamas sob stories on channel 4 news (uk) right now... so that camera footage is somehow reaching the main western MSM agencies..

they really need to get a handle on this - otherwise they'll lose the propaganda war.

Sadly, they already did. The MSM and the U.N. are already condemning them.

110 GottaRide  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:06:21am

MSM: Retaliation = Aggression

Mom: "Who started this fight?"
Kid: "He did. He hit me back first!"

See! 8 yo mentality.

111 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:06:28am

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

112 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:06:43am

re: #108 buzzdroid

israel really needs to jam all satellite comms with gaza - yet more Hamas sob stories on channel 4 news (uk) right now... so that camera footage is somehow reaching the main western MSM agencies..

they really need to get a handle on this - otherwise they'll lose the propaganda war.

It's Israel, dude - they lost the propaganda war before it began. The MSM is propaganda for the Palis.

113 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:07:23am

jeez - channel 4 news might as well rename itself "Hamas TV"... incredible how the israelis are letting this get out.

114 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:07:53am

Mubarak is afraid that Israel will squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube and 2,000,000 Moslem Brotherhood loving Philistines will be dumped into Egypt. He is powerfully motivated to find an accommodation with Israel.

115 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:07:56am

Has the invasion started yet?

116 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:08:24am

re: #106 lifeofthemind

Charles please note that my repeated suggestions for a steady destruction of territory by massed artillery, in Gaza or earlier in Fallujah was not a call for the forced death of civilians or indiscriminate carpet bombing.

non of that is gonna happen...no barrages no carpet bombing...nothing so indiscriminate...the point is not to kill Gazans and to suggest otherwise is foolish and immoral...the IDF seems to be pondering their last best option and thats a toe to toe brawl through the streets...

117 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:08:37am

re: #111 Thanos

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

Bad plan from a Public Relations point of view.

118 faraway  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:08:40am

re: #108 buzzdroid

they really need to get a handle on this - otherwise they'll lose the propaganda war.

They need to concede the "propaganda" war and concentrate on winning the "real" war.

119 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:08:56am

re: #112 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

It's Israel, dude - they lost the propaganda war before it began. The MSM is propaganda for the Palis.

but they could at least try to stop Hamas camera footage from getting out to the western MSM...

there must be some satt comms going on which they could jam?

120 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:09:28am

re: #111 Thanos

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

I don't want Israel back in Gaza. I don't think anyone with real sense does either. Let the Palestinians have it. It's not worth having. As long as they keep quiet, they're welcome to it.

121 So?  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:10:07am

re: #79 faraway

I AGREE!

For once I'd like to see a front page article where the photos depict the horror and terror of Israelis under fire from the thousands of rockets that have exploded in Israeli cities and settlements.

122 Maximu§  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:10:09am

I have some advice for the Assholes living in Gaza:

Stop shooting at Israel and they will not shoot at you!

Simple isn't it?

123 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:11:26am

re: #119 buzzdroid

but they could at least try to stop Hamas camera footage from getting out to the western MSM...

there must be some satt comms going on which they could jam?

Like this?

124 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:11:36am

re: #117 jwb7605

Bad plan from a Public Relations point of view.

I agree, but longer term it might be the only way to stop the rockets and the destruction.

125 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:11:57am

re: #120 Summer

I don't want Israel back in Gaza. I don't think anyone with real sense does either. Let the Palestinians have it. It's not worth having. As long as they keep quiet, they're welcome to it.

They tried that already. Its lead to more demands and nearly non-stop rockets and mortars.

Crush them utterly. They can beg to be taken in by Egypt or surrender unconditionally to Israel or die. Those are the only rational options left to Israel.

126 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:01am
127 mj  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:15am

re: #108 buzzdroid

israel really needs to jam all satellite comms with gaza - yet more Hamas sob stories on channel 4 news (uk) right now... so that camera footage is somehow reaching the main western MSM agencies..

they really need to get a handle on this - otherwise they'll lose the propaganda war.

Israel will never "win" the propaganda war. The West, including it's media and politicians ( Europeans primarily here ) have such an ingrained core belief in the Jew as victim and in the blood libel, that it long ago morphed out of it's religious origin and was adopted in the most secularized mythology.
Jew role of the Jew or the collective Jew ( Israel ) is to be a victim...any measure of self-defense is to be denied them. From this belief springs the idea of "disproportionate" response.
The blood libel is almost always on display. Look at the photographs being published. How many images of children do you see?

128 The Hoopster  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:35am

re: #122 Maximu§

I have some advice for the Assholes living in Gaza:

Stop shooting at Israel and they will not shoot at you!

Simple isn't it?


Apparently there is an issue with the words stop shooting...

129 Buck  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:42am

I think the most important point of this post by Charles is how can we get the MSM to see this, and even discuss it? Email this link to every MSM contact you can. Local radio, local news, State reporters, national organizations.

There has to be a way to get this out...

130 So?  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:45am

The Wall Street Journal, another propaganda machine for the poor palestinians.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

131 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:55am

Re; Carpet Bombing

As far as I know the Allies only ever used carpet bombing in WWII in very specific tactical settings: bombing the beach defenses in Normandy, and in carpet bombing the Panzer divisions pretty much out of existence.

On the other hand ask yourselves: if Hamas had the cabability to carpet bomb Israel, would they?

So Charles, if you are against carpet bombing, when will you call for your country to give up its vast arsenal of weapons of mass destruction? Or might I respectfully suggest you wouldn't, since your country needs those as a means of deterring a "carpet bomb - type" attack against you. Persumably therein lies the threat of their actual use.

So it doesn't appear as if we are all universally opposed to any and all carpet bombing. Just unnecessary carpet bombing. I'm afraid to allow enemies like Hamas to think you'd never, ever resort to carpet bombing is to allow them to think you are weak. And in that part of the world, weakness is a provocation.

If at some point Israel HAD carpet bombed someone who attacked them, would this endless warfare still be going on? What you see now going on is what happens when you intervene to artificially truncate a natural war. You simply allow it to go on for centuries. Hamas has never really tasted defeat.

I don't know what the answer is, but at some point Israel may have no choice left but carpet bombing, such as an Iranian preemptive ground attack in the North...

It is a mistake to allow Islamic enemies to see you as compassionate, because that means there are things you'd never consider doing, and that is a huge advantage to an aggressor.

132 Kenneth  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:12:58am

re: #120 Summer

Hamas is using the entire population of Gaza as a vast human shield. Hamas is the bomb vest, strapped onto the people of Gaza as a national suicide bomb.

133 apachegunner  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:13:14am

hello

134 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:13:17am

re: #111 Thanos

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

at the end start a full blown media campaign of their own inviting and even demanding other Arab nations step up to the plate and rescue their bretheren...if they were so full of bravado to support a hot fight...then expose them for their generosity or not now that its over...put the heat on the other guys...slam the world media bigtime...declare safe trade zones

135 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:13:19am

re: #111 Thanos

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

How about this:
1. Destroy Hamas infrastructure;
2. Hunt down and kill all Hamas members;
3. Let Abbas and Fatah form a government.

136 rawmuse  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:13:28am

re: #122 Maximu§

I have some advice for the Assholes living in Gaza:

Stop shooting at Israel and they will not shoot at you!

Simple isn't it?

Come on, you are never going to get anywhere with clarity such as that.
You need nuance!

137 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:13:36am

re: #116 albusteve

non of that is gonna happen...no barrages no carpet bombing...nothing so indiscriminate...the point is not to kill Gazans and to suggest otherwise is foolish and immoral...the IDF seems to be pondering their last best option and thats a toe to toe brawl through the streets...

My point is neither foolish nor immoral. It is not to kill the population, it is to deny the physical locations that were used for the attacks on Israel for future use and to impose a calculated and controllable level of cost on the population that will induce a real peace. If it takes 4 days then they lose a 1/4 mile, if it takes 8 days a half mile, the strip is 25 miles log, the longer it takes the more they lose.

138 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:14:11am

re: #111 Thanos

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

Ugh. What an awful choice.

But the reality is that unless Israel maintains some kind of presence in Gaza, the various terrorist groups will just do the same routine again -- phony truce while they build up stockpiles of weapons and train armies of killers, followed by Israel SMASH!

Bottom line is that Hamas continues to get large amounts of money from the surrounding Arab countries. Without money, Hamas could not exist. The problem is not Hamas alone, it's the whole Middle East.

139 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:15:22am

Aww - had to go away for a while, and here's a new thread already!

So, repeating meself from a thread below, the Gazans are as 'innocent' as are the Germans who voted in Hitler and the Nazis.
Why?
Because they voted in Hamas, as we're told by all those who now bewail the fate of these innocents: 'Hamas is a democratically elected government, they are not terrorists'.
Sorry, dahlings - it was your choice, live with it.

140 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:15:23am

re: #114 lifeofthemind

Mubarak is afraid that Israel will squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube and 2,000,000 Moslem Brotherhood loving Philistines will be dumped into Egypt. He is powerfully motivated to find an accommodation with Israel.

Well, in 1967, Gaza was part of Egypt. It should be up to Egypt what to do with them.
But you know if Egypt mowed them down with machine guns (I'm NOT saying they should), the world would ignore it. But if one Pali gets hurt by Israel because they're next to a rocket launcher, the world screams bloody murder.

141 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:15:37am

re: #124 Thanos

I agree, but longer term it might be the only way to stop the rockets and the destruction.

PR is and has been for most of my adult life the beginning and the end of things for Israel.
Life is unfair, frequently.

If I were Israel I would push Egypt and Jordan to intervene with Hamas for a "peace document" that required Hamas to sign their name that Israel has the right to exist.

Until that happens, no quarter.

142 cartoonboy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:15:47am

Suffering innocent Gazan speaks to an unbiased media professional:

"It's so scary what happens when we send 1000's of peace-seeking rockets into Israel. Why are they doing this to us? We are oppressed, we are victims. Why? Why now? The children, the children. Ok...are you still recording this-should I be holding that baby you've got there-more furrowed brow?-ok, got it, ready."

143 Sunlight  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:16:33am

Hamas still has the media spotlight (including LGF, unfortunately). Drudge has all attack from Israel, anti-Israel protests here and there, Iran... and not a peep about 60+ ROCKETS FIRED INTO ISRAEL TODAY. Killed a Bedouin guy in ASHKELON. Landed only 10k from the house of some friends of ours, where we stayed in summer '06 during the northern rocket attacks. We need to be focussing on the cause of this problem - the rockets landing in Israel!

144 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:16:44am

re: #131 cracker-crusader

So Charles, if you are against carpet bombing, when will you call for your country to give up its vast arsenal of weapons of mass destruction? Or might I respectfully suggest you wouldn't, since your country needs those as a means of deterring a "carpet bomb - type" attack against you. Persumably therein lies the threat of their actual use.

Here we go. I did not say I was "against carpet bombing." The reality is that indiscriminate bombing is not being used or even considered by Israel in this case, and they're not going to use it. It's not going to happen.

The only thing people achieve by fantasizing about killing 'em all is to make LGF look like an extremist site, and I don't like it.

145 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:16:56am

re: #140 Kosh's Shadow

Well, in 1967, Gaza was part of Egypt. It should be up to Egypt what to do with them.
But you know if Egypt mowed them down with machine guns (I'm NOT saying they should), the world would ignore it. But if one Pali gets hurt by Israel because they're next to a rocket launcher, the world screams bloody murder.

Everyone cries for Hamas, but no one remembers Hama.

146 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:17:18am

re: #138 Charles

Ugh. What an awful choice.

But the reality is that unless Israel maintains some kind of presence in Gaza, the various terrorist groups will just do the same routine again -- phony truce while they build up stockpiles of weapons and train armies of killers, followed by Israel SMASH!

Bottom line is that Hamas continues to get large amounts of money from the surrounding Arab countries. Without money, Hamas could not exist. The problem is not Hamas alone, it's the whole Middle East.

A big problem here is that Hamas continues to produce results. A kidnapping here, rockets there, getting Israel to treat them as a partner rather than terrorist scum. As long as the other Arabs see a pay off, they're going to send money. If Hamas were utterly crushed and humiliated, then they could beg all they want and get jack shit. The Arabs aren't paying for humanitarian aid, they're paying for a war and I say its about time they get what they've paid for.

147 Kenneth  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:17:23am

re: #126 Iron Fist

Yeah, I'm pretty much over all the motherfuckers in Gaza. They claim they want an independant State, but isn't that what the Israelis essentially gave them when they pulled out of Gaza? How's that working out?

The UN tried to give the Palestinian Arabs a state in 1948 but the Arabs refused it. Nothing has changed.

148 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:17:27am

Of course I mean carpet bombing possibly of Iranian Infantry and Armoured divisions operating out of populated areas...

149 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:17:55am

And here's a nice little bit of information about the Gazan population by Elder of Ziyon:
There are more Gazans alive today than on Saturday morning

Not many moonbats know this ...

150 Outrider  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:18:13am

re: #145 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Everyone cries for Hamas, but no one remembers Hama.

I do. I just had a Hama cheese sandwich for lunch. ;-)>

151 moshavnik  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:18:29am

A few observations from Israel
1) Channel 2 reported that Israel called the residents of a house in Gaza where missiles are being stored and warned them to evacuate because the house was about to get bombed. After a few minutes the house was blown up by IAF jets.
2) The only Israeli civilian killed today by Hamas rockets was an Israeli Arab
3) What galls me most about the press coverage is that there was little to no coverage of the thousands of rockets aimed at civilian communities in Southern Israel for the past 8 years.
4) I only hope that the government doesn't pussy out and stop too early (I say this even though my son is in the army)

152 looking closely  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:18:41am

re: #71 Charles

I'd appreciate it if we don't have discussions about carpet bombing. My post above is not intended to be an open door to start discussing indiscriminate bombing.

Please note: Israel is doing the exact opposite of carpet bombing. They're launching highly targeted surgical strikes trying to minimize civilian casualties.

It would be trivially easy for Israel to level Gaza, but Israel simply isn't going to do that. To Israel's credit, "carpet bombing" is simply not on the table, never has been, and never will be. Israel has NEVER taken the "more rubble, less trouble" approach to Gaza or the West Bank.

That's a non-starter for any number of intertwined ethical, political, and pragmatic reasons. No Israeli wants to partake in a genocide, including both Israeli leadership and Israeli soldiers (who would be tasked with executing it).

In short, the Israeli public doesn't want it, the Israeli leadership isn't going to ask for it, and the Israeli military wouldn't do it, even if asked. "Carpet bombing" is just "stupid talk".

More pragmatically, what is going on now is about as close to a "scorched earth" military policy as Israel will permit. We have massive attacks on Hamas terrorist infrastructure AND personnel with some tolerance given to inevitable legitimate civilian casualties.

153 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:18:42am

Charles I am not calling for carpet bombing. I am debating the merits of allowing the enemy to KNOW we'd never use it...

154 avanti  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:18:59am

Just like in WWII, once we beat the Germans, Nazi's supporters were hard to find. Certainly, there are lots of Hamas supporters in Gaza, but there is a difference in civilian support for your government and taking up arms against Israel in that support.
I think Israel is correct in trying to target just the militants and limit civilian flag waver deaths. To do otherwise just makes more civilian supporters into militants. Like the Germans, many of them bought the anti Jewish propaganda fed to them from berth. I'd hope that even the most ignorant Gaza resident would recognize the fact that Israel could wipe them all out if they chose to, but that's just a hope.

155 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:19:28am

re: #111 Thanos

Carl did a post earlier in response to Ed at Hot Air, his recommendation is to Re Occupy Gaza. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but would like to see what other suggestions are. Again, I don't have good answers for this one.

Other options:

1) Hamas continues in power, but at a reduced function until such time it regroups and rearms (likely due to hudna/ceasefire/Israel forced to stop). Most likely outcome if Israel doesn't succeed in its tactical and strategic objectives.
1a) Israel is prevented from fulfilling its strategic and tactical objectives because the UN/US/EU step in and save Hamas from ultimate destruction. Hamas remains in power.
1b) The UN sends in the peacekeepers, who will act no differently than UNIFIL in South Lebanon. They'll look the other way as Hamas regroups and rearms until such time as UN mandate ends; war resumes thereafter (rinse and repeat).
1c) UN/international peacekeepers manage to keep the peace with Israel, but become targets themselves of terrorists, resulting in end of operations there; al Qaeda/Hamas/Hizbullah ascendant.

2) Fatah rolls in as a white knight and says that they will end the fighting if Hamas in Gaza lays down their weapons. Hamas continues to function, but with the PA providing cover.
2a) Israel obliterates Hamas, and installs Fatah/PA as new civil administration.
2b) Fatah rolls in, finishes off Hamas as a viable entity, and subsumes the most violent of the Hamas thugs as part of their own al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Terrorism continues under new name - second verse same as first.
2c) Fatah rolls in, finishes off Hamas, and actually does improve the situation in Gaza, including improving the security, economic opportunities, and social situation while eliminating the anti-Israel propaganda.

3) Egypt will do nothing to reoccupy Gaza. Israel will not reoccupy Gaza - both have been there/done that, and neither want to replay the experience. Gazans have no instinct for self preservation or common sense to choose peace over unending war and conflict. Both would rather see the UN or someone else deal with Gaza than reoccupy it.

156 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:20:13am

About Egypt: they just opened fire on palestinians trying to cross into Egypt...

157 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:20:20am

any future scenario in Gaza does not include Hamas...just for clarities sake...and further Israel cannot just walk away without resolving what's next...

158 kcladderman  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:20:52am

re: #151 moshavnik

A few observations from Israel
1) Channel 2 reported that Israel called the residents of a house in Gaza where missiles are being stored and warned them to evacuate because the house was about to get bombed. After a few minutes the house was blown up by IAF jets.
2) The only Israeli civilian killed today by Hamas rockets was an Israeli Arab
3) What galls me most about the press coverage is that there was little to no coverage of the thousands of rockets aimed at civilian communities in Southern Israel for the past 8 years.
4) I only hope that the government doesn't pussy out and stop too early (I say this even though my son is in the army)

Saying a prayer for your son and your country.

159 Buck  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:20:52am

re: #140 Kosh's Shadow

Well, in 1967, Gaza was part of Egypt. It should be up to Egypt what to do with them.
But you know if Egypt mowed them down with machine guns (I'm NOT saying they should), the world would ignore it. But if one Pali gets hurt by Israel because they're next to a rocket launcher, the world screams bloody murder.

People are reporting that the Egyptians have been shooting at Palestinians crossing the Egypt/Gaza border.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Just not being discussed by Human Rights groups or MSM.

160 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:21:08am

re: #135 Spare O'Lake

How about this:
1. Destroy Hamas infrastructure;
2. Hunt down and kill all Hamas members;
3. Let Abbas and Fatah form a government.

You need to read Carl's post, Abbas is not liked in Gaza at all.

161 Racer X  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:21:32am

re: #138 Charles

Bottom line is that Hamas continues to get large amounts of money from the surrounding Arab countries. Without money, Hamas could not exist. The problem is not Hamas alone, it's the whole Middle East.


The most sickening part?

If the Palestinians took all the money they received and instead of building rockets and mortars they used that money to build a Mediterranean oasis with hotels and shops and commerce, they would have a really nice city on the beach.

But no.

162 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:21:33am

re: #153 cracker-crusader

Hamas and the Palestinians already know that. They've been betting on it for decades and they know it's not going to happen.

163 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:21:34am

re: #156 cracker-crusader

About Egypt: they just opened fire on palestinians trying to cross into Egypt...

Not for the first time either. They did the same thing the last time Hamas invaded Egypt in January. They are doing it again, and for the same reason. Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza and Hamas.

164 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:21:58am

re: #144 Charles

Here we go. I did not say I was "against carpet bombing." The reality is that indiscriminate bombing is not being used or even considered by Israel in this case, and they're not going to use it. It's not going to happen.

The only thing people achieve by fantasizing about killing 'em all is to make LGF look like an extremist site, and I don't like it.

You're absolutely right, Charles.
The IDF and Barak are on record as saying that they are not fighting the Gazans, they are fighting Hamas.
Thus no indiscriminate carpet bombing.
Calling for it, in my view, gives ammunition to all those who have always and always will blame Israel for 'disproportionate force'.
Oh - and as we're seeing right now: its not necessary!

165 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:19am

re: #155 lawhawk

I say let Fatah in, and make sure both sides have small arms only. Nothing that can reach outside Gaza.
Let them go at it for a while, and there will be a much smaller problem, if you know what I mean.

166 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:20am

They don't sell the Washington Post in Sderote.

So kindly, F*ck Off.

Todah.

167 VioletTiger  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:23am

re: #122 Maximu§

I have some advice for the Assholes living in Gaza:

Stop shooting at Israel and they will not shoot at you!

Simple isn't it?

Sounds simple, but then Hamas and their friends would lose an 'excuse' for their continued terrorism. Therefore, they will probably keep doing what they are doing. Hamas doesn't want peace.

168 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:31am

re: #148 cracker-crusader

Of course I mean carpet bombing possibly of Iranian Infantry and Armoured divisions operating out of populated areas...

In Gaza?

169 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:43am

re: #163 lawhawk

Not for the first time either. They did the same thing the last time Hamas invaded Egypt in January. They are doing it again, and for the same reason. Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza and Hamas.

Which just proves that Egypt is smarter than they appear.

170 Kenneth  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:49am

re: #155 lawhawk

A Fatah regime in Gaza, installed by Israel, will have zero credibility among Gazans. The only thing that will have credibility is for Israel to utterly destroy Hamas, and then leave the place alone. The Gazans will have time to reflect upon their poor choice for govenment.

171 looking closely  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:22:58am

re: #114 lifeofthemind

Mubarak is afraid that Israel will squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube and 2,000,000 Moslem Brotherhood loving Philistines will be dumped into Egypt. He is powerfully motivated to find an accommodation with Israel.

That's definitely part of it.

The Gazans are potentially just as much of a PITA to Egypt as they are to Israel.

But there is something else going on here as well. Hamas has partially burned its bridges with Egypt. The other Arab countries are not happy about burgeoning Iranian influence in the area, vis-a-vis Hamas. Egypt doesn't want another branch of Hizb'Allah on its doorstep.

Israel was also savvy this time. Unlike last time, with Lebanon, Israel knew this "war" was coming, and in advance, sought the blessing of all the key players, including Egypt. That's why the flying pig moment, occured, and Egypt, the USA, the Russians, etc, all simultaneously endorsed these Israeli attacks in an unprecedented way. The consent was obtained in advance, though who knows in exchange for what.

172 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:23:11am

re: #151 moshavnik

4) I only hope that the government doesn't pussy out and stop too early (I say this even though my son is in the army)

My gut is telling me that that's exactly what's going to happen.

173 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:23:48am

re: #154 avanti

Like the Germans, many of them bought the anti Jewish propaganda fed to them from berth. I'd hope that even the most ignorant Gaza resident would recognize the fact that Israel could wipe them all out if they chose to, but that's just a hope.

Even the ones who weren't on ships?
/but seriously, before the Nazis took power, Germany was friendlier to the Jews than most other countries in Europe. In just a few years, the Nazi propaganda machine, especially the schools, took care of that.

174 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:23:58am
175 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:24:01am

re: #151 moshavnik

Thank you.
May your son be safe, and keep safe yourself.
Our prayers are with your country, now and always.

176 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:24:08am

re: #172 Ben Hur

My gut is telling me that that's exactly what's going to happen.

/it's the Kadima way

177 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:24:18am

Oh, and while we're at it:

FREE DARFUR FROM ARAB GENOCIDE!

178 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:25:26am

re: #170 Kenneth

A Fatah regime in Gaza, installed by Israel, will have zero credibility among Gazans. The only thing that will have credibility is for Israel to utterly destroy Hamas, and then leave the place alone. The Gazans will have time to reflect upon their poor choice for govenment.

That bears repeating. Fatah lost the civil war in Gaza because they lacked any popular support - not because they were more corrupt but because they were perceived by Gazans as not being sufficiently violent enough to go after Israel. It's a problem that Fatah will likely not overcome unless and until such time that Gazans become weary of war and realize it isn't the answer.

179 No. Just, no.  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:25:35am

If my neighbor was launching rockets from next door, and I knew he was shooting at something that shot back, I would either move or do whatever it took to stop him.

The "innocent" Palestinians don't, and I see two possible reasons why:

1. The terrorists are also criminal thugs, and the ordinary citizens are afraid of them.

2. They are more than a little in sympathy with the thugs.

I suspect a blend of both reasons.

180 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:25:44am

re: #155 lawhawk

Other options:

1) Hamas continues in power, but at a reduced function until such time it regroups and rearms (likely due to hudna/ceasefire/Israel forced to stop). Most likely outcome if Israel doesn't succeed in its tactical and strategic objectives.

Has the Israeli government said what their specific objectives are for this war?

181 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:26:10am

re: #167 VioletTiger

Sounds simple, but then Hamas and their friends would lose an 'excuse' for their continued terrorism. Therefore, they will probably keep doing what they are doing. Hamas doesn't want peace.

I'd love to see Hamas on Dr. Phil. He'd ask, "How's that workin' for ya?"

182 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:26:59am

re: #97 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey
There's nothing wrong with carpet bombing per se - against cities, probably not such a good thing, but enemy forces out in the open, we've been doing that ourselves in Iraq & Afghanistan.

'Nam
B-52s from Guam.

A guy I used to work with was 1st Air Cav. in Vietnam (from '68-'70, iirc). At one point, their base was taking artillery fire from a low ridge about a mile away and an air strike was called in. He was expecting F-4s, but it was B-52s. He said the ground was shaking like an earthquake for a good 10 minutes.

183 Long Nics are Looonnng  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:27:06am

This may sound evil...but that picture... is it what they call a "Target Rich Environment?

184 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:27:09am

The obligatory, "What do you think the US and Europe would do if rockets were fired down 5th Avenue and the Champs Elysee?" post.

185 opnion  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:27:47am

re: #161 Racer X

The most sickening part?

If the Palestinians took all the money they received and instead of building rockets and mortars they used that money to build a Mediterranean oasis with hotels and shops and commerce, they would have a really nice city on the beach.

But no.

The Palistinians are brainwashed by the Imams & the terrorists.
They actually believe that there is a war on Islam. If you look hard enough for something, you find it if it is there & if it isn't there.

186 BigMoo  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:27:51am

'Innocent'...hard to call someone 'innocent', when they choose to let a rocket launcher or AAA battery get set up in their backyard. However, I gotta believe some of these poor schmucks have NO choice in where Hamas places their weaponry-and would be dispatched if they objected...

187 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:28:03am

re: #180 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Has the Israeli government said what their specific objectives are for this war?

"To stop the rocket fire."

Lebanon War II 2.0

188 avanti  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:28:16am

re: #131 cracker-crusader

Re; Carpet Bombing

As far as I know the Allies only ever used carpet bombing in WWII in very specific tactical settings: bombing the beach defenses in Normandy, and in carpet bombing the Panzer divisions pretty much out of existence.

On the other hand ask yourselves: if Hamas had the cabability to carpet bomb Israel, would they?

So Charles, if you are against carpet bombing, when will you call for your country to give up its vast arsenal of weapons of mass destruction? Or might I respectfully suggest you wouldn't, since your country needs those as a means of deterring a "carpet bomb - type" attack against you. Persumably therein lies the threat of their actual use.

So it doesn't appear as if we are all universally opposed to any and all carpet bombing. Just unnecessary carpet bombing. I'm afraid to allow enemies like Hamas to think you'd never, ever resort to carpet bombing is to allow them to think you are weak. And in that part of the world, weakness is a provocation.

If at some point Israel HAD carpet bombed someone who attacked them, would this endless warfare still be going on? What you see now going on is what happens when you intervene to artificially truncate a natural war. You simply allow it to go on for centuries. Hamas has never really tasted defeat.

I don't know what the answer is, but at some point Israel may have no choice left but carpet bombing, such as an Iranian preemptive ground attack in the North...

It is a mistake to allow Islamic enemies to see you as compassionate, because that means there are things you'd never consider doing, and that is a huge advantage to an aggressor.

Actually, we did carpet bombing civilian targets in WWII. just as the Nazi's did. Dresden was the most controversial. In all out war, breaking the civilian morale was justified by both sides.

189 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:28:50am

This world is so upside down it'll take some sort of miracle to turn it upright again.

/objective reality just doesn't mean much any more

190 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:29:23am

re: #182 Spiny Norman

A guy I used to work with was 1st Air Cav. in Vietnam (from '68-'70, iirc). At one point, their base was taking artillery fire from a low ridge about a mile away and an air strike was called in. He was expecting F-4s, but it was B-52s. He said the ground was shaking like an earthquake for a good 10 minutes.

Yeah I remember in the Gulf we could feel the aftershocks from "arc-lights" even though we were in Saudi. Its quite a comforting feeling knowing they are on yourside... I can only imagine the feeling for those on the receiving end. Aside from the physical damage.. I would imagine the psychological damage would be just as bad.

191 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:29:45am

Then again Russia pretty much got away with carpet bombing in Chechnya. Now my position on this is that our MSM have so publicly cocked up our ability (in the West, and Israel especially) to win wars that countries like Russia, India and China will do everything to ensure that if they do ever fight a war, they try to leave no survivors. Because dead men tell no tales.

The MSM in other words encourages the killing of non-Western journalists abroad, and the indiscriminate waging of all-out war against civilian populations. Like in Chechnya and Georgia. Because that's the way you win in the wider world. The only beneficiaries of Western media involvement in wars have been thugs and dictators, while Western democracy is critically weakened and humiliated in the eyes of the world. To the rest of the (non-Western) world Israel is at best a pathetic weakling, a paper tiger, incapable of removing a handful of idiotic sexual deviants from their borders.

The objective of war is to kill your enemy until he cries "uncle". Ever noticed that no-one fires rockets into China? Our holier-than-thou attitude and boundless smugness actually kills a great many people abroad...

192 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:29:51am

if the end result is that Hamas is wiped out...Gaza wrecked and Arab nations will refuse to come to the rescue then Israel will simply have to set up an imperial colony...seal the borders...install liberal laws and open the entire Strip to foreign investment...beach front condos and hotels...casinos and water parks..marinas and zoos and amusement parks...presto!...everyone will want to visit GazaWorld!

193 notutopia  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:30:03am

re: #100 yochanan

i would love to see the Israeli air force buzz the hamasshole rally just to see the rats run for there holes.

We would all love to imagine them scurrying like the rats they are...Israel is most gracious.
IDF, Israel is executing precise air strikes at the crucial targeted strongholds of Hamas. Military precision strikes. Eliminate the ammo dumps, coms, and the Hamas security details, and the secret hidey hole tunnels that have trafficked Hamas supplies.
Israel is fighting this war as warriors in defense of their beloved country. Not like the banshees who profess the need to blow Israel off the map.

194 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:30:22am

re: #184 Ben Hur

The obligatory, "What do you think the US and Europe would do if rockets were fired down 5th Avenue and the Champs Elysee?" post.

Roughly what the U.S. is doing on the Mexican border with regard to drug cartels and the unreal amount of murders.

France is busy enough calming down riots caused by "unruly youth".

/My obligatory answer.

195 Super-ego  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:30:54am
"There's no food in the market," Bardaweel explained in an interview with a reporter. Her son did not return until nightfall.


Don't worry, Cynthia McKinney is on the way.

196 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:30:59am

re: #190 baconeatingkaffir

Yeah I remember in the Gulf we could feel the aftershocks from "arc-lights" even though we were in Saudi. Its quite a comforting feeling knowing they are on yourside... I can only imagine the feeling for those on the receiving end. Aside from the physical damage.. I would imagine the psychological damage would be just as bad.

I've read that the Iraqis in GWI feared the B-52 strikes more than anything else we had.

197 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:09am

re: #188 avanti

Long decades of studies later it's been found to be an inneffective military tactic. There are better ways, one is GB-39.

198 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:10am

re: #180 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Has the Israeli government said what their specific objectives are for this war?

One aim seems to be to re-teach a Pavlovian lesson to a rabid dog that was lost over many years of Israeli passivity.

Attack Israel. Get a painful response.

Second, and very dumb aim, is to hope Hamas is so weakened that the good terrorists of Fatah and Abbas can take over.

199 Racer X  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:22am

re: #191 cracker-crusader

You have got to be kidding.

200 uptight  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:22am

Gazans shouldn't have ticked the box marked "Terrorist Organisation" when it came to elections.

When Hamas were elected the more innocent Gazans fled. Those that couldn't make it were thrown off buildings.

The argument that vilence breeds violence is bullcrap. It is belied by the tangible facts:

When Israel withdrew from Gaza, instead of building a society the "Palestinians" chose to express their freedom through their chosen medium of violence.

After the recent ceasefire, they realised what they'd been missing and returned to violence.

Hamas choose violence. It's what they want. I don't know if they enjoy taking it as well as giving it, but it's what they are into.

Let's cut to the chase folks - while they are addicted to violence, there is never going to be peace - whether Israel is hawkish or dovish.

If Israel is dovish, it alleviates some of the criticism the world throws at them. If they are hawkish, they get a lot of criticism but they stand a better chance of stopping attacks on Sderot.

Whatever approach they take has to be pragmatic and useful - in the short term and long term.

I think Israel needs to make the point even clearer to the Palestinians : "THIS IS A SELF-INFLICTED WOUND - IT IS YOUR CHOICE". They have to know that the solution can only come from them.

They are like an alcoholic who can't admit they have a problem. Nothing will get solved until the Palestinians reject violence. Blaming Israel won't solve a thing. The problem will remain.

So they can either sit there in perpetual war, or reject violence and maybe get a homeland. Israel is a third party in all this.

201 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:22am

re: #160 Thanos

You need to read Carl's post, Abbas is not liked in Gaza at all.

Would he be much less popular than Dubya?/
Carl represents a fringe point of view in Israel.
I believe the Israeli plan is for Abbas/Fatah to be installed there by Israel as an interim government.
There are signs that Egypt and Abbas are already quietly on board with this plan.

202 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:32am

I still think that the press needs some boundaries in a warzone. Does anyone remember during the first gulf war when those whankbags from CBS decided to go rogue and leave their press pool and wound up captured by the Iraqis? Some people are just too stupidly "smart" for their own good.

203 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:31:48am

re: #195 Super-ego

Don't worry, Cynthia McKinney is on the way.

And she's bringing a boatload of crazy with her.

204 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:32:35am

Dachau, Germany, Dec. 28 — The family of Frau Lili Von Schlimm, the wife of SS Oberschutztaffel Johann Schlimm did not sleep. The Allied airstrikes and the explosions, the sirens and the screams of strangers outside their house near the Buchenwald concentration camp kept them awake into the predawn hours Sunday.

At the first light of dawn, the mother of five sent her son to the bakery to buy bread. Hundreds of Germans had the same idea, joining a never-ending line. “There’s no food in the market,” Frau Schlimm explained in an interview with a reporter. Her son did not return until nightfall.

Then came another airstrike close to their villa, rocking the house and shattering the windows. “Our children started screaming in a crazy way,” she recalled. “After each airstrike, my sons ask me: ‘Why are we targeted? Will they arrest us? Will they come after us?’ I tell them not to panic. We are far away from the shelling. But then tonight, the bombing reached our doorsteps.”

205 mksmothers  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:32:35am

re: #7 Opinionated
Why is there still a refuge camp there? Public Relations.

206 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:32:36am

re: #194 jwb7605

Roughly what the U.S. is doing on the Mexican border with regard to drug cartels and the unreal amount of murders.

France is busy enough calming down riots caused by "unruly youth".

/My obligatory answer.

You know something is wrong when the average American would be safer walking around in Bagdad than in visiting the average border town with Mexico.

207 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:32:42am

The bottom of the hour news brief says that the White House is calling for a cease fire.

208 bosforus  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:02am

re: #189 Killian Bundy

This world is so upside down it'll take some sort of miracle to turn it upright again.

/objective reality just doesn't mean much any more

Looking for a miracle?
Don't ask me how that meme got started.

209 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:05am

IAF Video Shows Strikes On Tunnels,Launch Sites And Hamas HQ.,,,

29/12/08 : Several strikes with english subtitles.
210 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:07am

re: #203 Wyatt Earp

And she's bringing a boatload of crazy with her.

Well they did say Gaza was running short of everything. Although they didn't single out a need for more crazy.

211 looking closely  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:32am

re: #178 lawhawk

That bears repeating. Fatah lost the civil war in Gaza because they lacked any popular support - not because they were more corrupt but because they were perceived by Gazans as not being sufficiently violent enough to go after Israel. It's a problem that Fatah will likely not overcome unless and until such time that Gazans become weary of war and realize it isn't the answer.

I think Fatah lost the civil war in Gaza because Hamas had planned it for months, and Fatah was caught off guard and tactically unprepared, while Hamas was ruthless, and backed with Iranian guns and training.

Fatah lost political power in Gaza (a bit of a different thing), for multiple reasons, among them its own rampant corruption (Hamas always represented itself as the ideologically pure Muslim movement), as well as the fact that Gaza has always been the more radical of the occupited territories, and the more violent. So ideologically, Hamas suited Gaza more.

212 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:42am

re: #191 cracker-crusader

Our holier-than-thou attitude and boundless smugness actually kills a great many people abroad...

/you really want to see some good old-fashioned carpet bombing of civilians, don't you?

213 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:52am

re: #190 baconeatingkaffir

Yeah I remember in the Gulf we could feel the aftershocks from "arc-lights" even though we were in Saudi. Its quite a comforting feeling knowing they are on yourside... I can only imagine the feeling for those on the receiving end. Aside from the physical damage.. I would imagine the psychological damage would be just as bad.

That could explain why so many Iraqi infantry units surrendered en masse without a shot being fired.

214 bosforus  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:33:54am

re: #207 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The bottom of the hour news brief says that the White House is calling for a cease fire.

Israel isn't too responsive to our calls for cease fires, it seems.

215 Kragar  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:34:08am

re: #207 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The bottom of the hour news brief says that the White House is calling for a cease fire.

The White House can fuck right off as well. They weren't nearly as vocal during the rocket attacks.

216 Three Hundred  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:34:43am

Clearly, this is merely a St. Patrick's Day celebration...

217 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:34:48am

re: #193 notutopia

We would all love to imagine them scurrying like the rats they are...Israel is most gracious.
IDF, Israel is executing precise air strikes at the crucial targeted strongholds of Hamas. Military precision strikes. Eliminate the ammo dumps, coms, and the Hamas security details, and the secret hidey hole tunnels that have trafficked Hamas supplies.
Israel is fighting this war as warriors in defense of their beloved country. Not like the banshees who profess the need to blow Israel off the map.


Maybe a nice gunship flyby. They want to die for alllah the god of nothing mohammed the pedophile ganglord... why not let them do it in mass quantity? They have no problem doing it individually.

218 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:34:55am

re: #214 bosforus

Israel isn't too responsive to our calls for cease fires, it seems.

good for them...the WH is wrong again and just stuck on stupid

219 Outrider  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:34:57am

re: #195 Super-ego

"There's no food in the market," Bardaweel explained in an interview with a reporter. Her son did not return until nightfall.

Don't worry, Cynthia McKinney is on the way.


The last time I saw quotes like that was when the crazy British woman came ashore in a boat and the media inadvertently showed stores with loaded shelves as well as a full farmers market.

220 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:35:31am

re: #210 Opinionated

Well they did say Gaza was running short of everything. Although they didn't single out a need for more crazy.

I think she's bringing some Bush is the Devil signs, too. Don't how edible they are, but . . .

221 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:35:36am

re: #201 Spare O'Lake

Would he be much less popular than Dubya?/
Carl represents a fringe point of view in Israel.
I believe the Israeli plan is for Abbas/Fatah to be installed there by Israel as an interim government.
There are signs that Egypt and Abbas are already quietly on board with this plan.

It could work, I'm just saying be open at this point to all solutions. We don't know yet how this will break out, it very well could be planned that way.

222 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:35:38am

re: #180 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Has the Israeli government said what their specific objectives are for this war?

Yes, according to the Israeli Ambassador to the UN:

In an interview Tuesday, Ambassador Gabriela Shalev said Israel's main goal is to "destroy completely" what she called a "terrorist gang."

She would not explicitly say that Israel wants to topple the Hamas government. But she said a return to the terms of a recent six-month truce would not be enough.

223 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:35:53am
224 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:35:55am

re: #209 Killgore Trout
Addendum: At 0:20 there's a strike on a missile launch site inside one of those nice greenhouses that was given to the Palestinians.

225 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:36:25am

re: #219 Outrider

Yeah. They can smuggle in explosives, Ipods, I-phones and of course those ever needed arab necessities of porn and alcohol but no food. WTF?

226 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:36:34am

re: #178 lawhawk

Destroying Hamas and leaving a total vacuum would be idiotic.

227 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:36:38am

re: #207 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The bottom of the hour news brief says that the White House is calling for a cease fire.

Shaddup, George.

228 notutopia  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:09am

re: #217 baconeatingkaffir

Because Israel is NOT advocating mass genocide.
Unlike what other Arab countries have PROMISED to do to her!
Israel is most just and Gracious!

229 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:21am

re: #227 MandyManners

Shaddup, George.

When is he gone? I have really had enough of him.

(Not that his replacement will be any better . . .)

230 Pietr  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:23am

re: #186 BigMoo

'Innocent'...hard to call someone 'innocent', when they choose to let a rocket launcher or AAA battery get set up in their backyard. However, I gotta believe some of these poor schmucks have NO choice in where Hamas places their weaponry-and would be dispatched if they objected...

And then, their bullet riddled bodies shown on the 10 o'clock news as "innocent victims of Israeli aggression'...

231 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:23am

re: #224 Killgore Trout

Addendum: At 0:20 there's a strike on a missile launch site inside one of those nice greenhouses that was given to the Palestinians.

Well to paraphrase my dear old mom "people who live in greenhouses shouldnt throw bombs"

232 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:36am

re: #226 Spare O'Lake

Destroying Hamas and leaving a total vacuum would be idiotic.

Not destroying Hamas and leaving total idiots has been chaotic, though.

233 jhrhv  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:37am

"Innocent' Gazans Suffering" Suffering like so many other Arabs under the rule of tyrannical theocracies.

234 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:43am

re: #210 Opinionated

Well they did say Gaza was running short of everything. Although they didn't single out a need for more crazy.

They have a plethora of that.

235 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:37:47am

Israel has done an excellent job by releasing video of its air strikes on the web. It's a shame the MSM will never show them.

236 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:38:11am

re: #223 Iron Fist

I disagree with you about the utility of striking all of Gaza. What Israel is doing right now is losing the war slowly, but certainly. Every time they wipe our Hamas' leadership there are other terrorists waiting to fill their shoes. Dying in the line of "duty" isn't a threat to these motherfuckers at all. It's like threatening a kid with chocolate, if you follow. "If you don't do X, you'll have to eat this candybar!"

That's going nowhere fast.

If Israel is going to win this long-term, then something has to be done to keep new terrorists from stepping up to fill the shoes of the terrorist that we just whacked. We have to attack the tree, not just the tree's leaves.

eliminate Hamas...thats absolute...occupy Gaza and start a major economical and ideological facelift...it can be done...think positive!

237 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:38:32am

re: #220 Wyatt Earp

I think she's bringing some Bush is the Devil signs, too. Don't how edible they are, but . . .

Just mix them up with a little humus...

238 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:38:39am

re: #228 notutopia

Because Israel is NOT advocating mass genocide.
Unlike what other Arab countries have PROMISED to do to her!
Israel is most just and Gracious!

Maybe too much. They could excuse it with "we were just giving the public what they want to see" which is pretty much all the media shows anyway.. dead or wounded and wannabee dead or wounded fakistinians anyhow.

239 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:39:15am

re: #214 bosforus

Israel isn't too responsive to our calls for cease fires, it seems.

I hope they stay unresponsive to these calls until they've finished what they set out to do!

240 Racer X  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:39:26am

re: #223 Iron Fist

If Israel is going to win this long-term, then something has to be done to keep new terrorists from stepping up to fill the shoes of the terrorist that we just whacked. We have to attack the tree, not just the tree's leaves.


The next batch of youngsters needs to understand their life has value and they can live in peace with the Jews.

Unfortunately their fathers and uncles will never let this message get to the younger generation.

241 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:39:39am

re: #226 Spare O'Lake

Destroying Hamas and leaving a total vacuum would be idiotic.

Not if the IDF fills up the vacuum.

242 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:39:44am

Just a reminder : after we firebombed Dresden and other locales in Germany the factories were moved to the Black forest and other outdoor locations under netting. Germans returned to work in them with renewed ardor and worked longer shifts.

243 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:39:44am

re: #170 Kenneth

A Fatah regime in Gaza, installed by Israel, will have zero credibility among Gazans. The only thing that will have credibility is for Israel to utterly destroy Hamas, and then leave the place alone. The Gazans will have time to reflect upon their poor choice for govenment.

You do not know for sure that Fatah will fail again.
Leaving a complete power vacuum is not an option.

244 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:39:45am

re: #234 MandyManners

They have a plethora of that.

So much, they export it too. Washington Post ordered some.

245 Miss Molly  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:07am

After Hamas has launched over 3000 rockets into Israel, Hamas is now complaining that Israel has lost patience and is finally doing something to stop the constant rocket attacks.

Israel may decide to really give Hamas something to complain about as Hamas so richly deserves.

246 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:16am

re: #244 Opinionated

So much, they export it too. Washington Post ordered some.

As did Ron Paul.

247 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:16am

re: #229 Wyatt Earp

I cannot believe I said that about Pres. Bush.

248 rightymouse  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:40am

re: #203 Wyatt Earp

And she's bringing a boatload of crazy with her.

Here's the list of crazies.

249 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:43am

re: #219 Outrider

The last time I saw quotes like that was when the crazy British woman came ashore in a boat and the media inadvertently showed stores with loaded shelves as well as a full farmers market.

that photo is on the "stop the ism" website...

[Link: www.stoptheism.com...]

here's the photo
Image: booth-shopping.jpg

moonbat's name is Lauren Booth - sister of Cherie Blair...

250 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:55am

re: #241 MandyManners

I don't think the Israelis are interested in re-occupying Gaza for any length of time.

251 Outrider  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:40:56am

re: #225 baconeatingkaffir

Yeah. They can smuggle in explosives, Ipods, I-phones and of course those ever needed arab necessities of porn and alcohol but no food. WTF?

they always seem to be able to find an endless supply of Israeli and American flags.

252 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:03am
253 stanleymberg  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:32am

Ordinary German citizens who stood by and acquiesced as the Nazis took power and committed mass murder weren't innocent.

Citizens of Gaza aren't innocent either.

As a country, we Americans agreed that as horrible as the firebombings of Germany during World War II were, they were necessary to break the will of the German people. What is different here? Not much, not much at all.

254 bulwrk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:33am

re: #226 Spare O'Lake

Destroying Hamas and leaving a total vacuum would be idiotic.

Why?

255 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:41am

re: #247 MandyManners

I cannot believe I said that about Pres. Bush.

He has been terrible about immigration, more terrible on the economy, and fled his conservative roots months ago. It's okay to be a little miffed.

256 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:53am

re: #247 MandyManners

I cannot believe I said that about Pres. Bush.

I can.
The last six months of his presidency have been a nightmare.
I voted for him both times.

257 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:54am

Cease fire: a maneuver by the losing side to prolong a war.

258 pass the moonbaticide  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:55am
Innocent Gazans Suffering

I would play a lament, but I seem to have lost the world's smallest violin.
Any of you other Lizards borrow it ?

259 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:41:55am

re: #244 Opinionated

So much, they export it too. Washington Post ordered some.

Call now and they'll double your order! Plus, you'll get the Popeil Pocket Fishing Pole for FREE!

260 opnion  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:42:04am

No matter how you slice this even the upper command of Hamas are a bunch of superstitious primitives.
What do they fear? They fear denial of paradise. General Pershing understood that. It should be common knowledge that all terrorists will be buried upside down with bacon in their mouths. Could work & save lots of lives.

261 Silas  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:42:26am

re: #7 Opinionated

Arabs have sole control of Gaza for years now, why is there still a "refugee camp" there?

Why do they still call that area a refugee camp? I see pictures of the place and I see cement buildings, paved streets, sidewalks, street lights. It’s not a refugee camp, it’s a city.
A refugee camp is people living in tents, cardboard boxes, under sheets, that’s a refugee camp.
The media has corrupted the language to suit their political leanings.

262 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:42:33am

re: #242 Thanos

Just a reminder : after we firebombed Dresden and other locales in Germany the factories were moved to the Black forest and other outdoor locations under netting. Germans returned to work in them with renewed ardor and worked longer shifts.

and tank production skyrocketed too... they produced more armaments in 1944 when the bombing got seriously heavy , than at any previous point in the war.

263 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:42:51am

re: #245 Miss Molly

After Hamas has launched over 3000 rockets into Israel, Hamas is now complaining that Israel has lost patience and is finally doing something to stop the constant rocket attacks.

Israel may decide to really give Hamas something to complain about as Hamas so richly deserves.

"Shaddup, kid or I'll give you something to cry about."

264 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:42:54am

re: #259 MandyManners

Call now and they'll double your order! Plus, you'll get the Popeil Pocket Fishing Pole for FREE!

You can go blind by pocket fishing.

265 faraway  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:42:58am

How many people living in Gaza moved there with the idea there would be no violence?

The residents support terrorists simply by living there.

266 jwb7605  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:43:01am

re: #257 Alouette

Cease fire: a maneuver by the losing side to prolong a war.

Cease fire: what happens when the enemy is dead and out of ammo.

267 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:43:13am

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I don't think the Israelis are interested in re-occupying Gaza for any length of time.

I wouldn't blame them.

268 tripletdad  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:43:39am

Weren't they cheering and partying the streets when the Twin Towers fell? We owe them nothing.

269 Outrider  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:43:45am

re: #242 Thanos

Just a reminder : after we firebombed Dresden and other locales in Germany the factories were moved to the Black forest and other outdoor locations under netting. Germans returned to work in them with renewed ardor and worked longer shifts.

Well, at least up till 8 May 1945. ;-)>

270 bosforus  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:44:02am

re: #254 bulwrk

Why?

Not to butt in but there are more powerful enemies of Israel that could fill it in.

271 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:44:12am

Is it just me, or have there been VERY few casualties since the initial strikes on Saturday?

I keep reading and hearing that Israel has intensified it's bombardment and is continuing it's assault, but the number's I'm hearing don't seem to correlate... The first strikes killed maybe ~280 and now it's a little over 300?

That's quite remarkable if you ask me... just goes to show Israel knows what it is hitting.

272 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:44:16am

re: #255 Wyatt Earp

He has been terrible about immigration, more terrible on the economy, and fled his conservative roots months ago. It's okay to be a little miffed.

But, he's done a great job in keeping us safe, and that's the primary job of the government.

273 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:44:29am

re: #258 pass the moonbaticide

I would play a lament, but I seem to have lost the world's smallest violin.
Any of you other Lizards borrow it ?

My tiny violin is too large. I need one that can only be seen through a SEM.

274 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:44:44am

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I don't think the Israelis are interested in re-occupying Gaza for any length of time.

they may have to...it would solve most of the historic problems they've had with it

275 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:44:55am

re: #272 MandyManners

But, he's done a great job in keeping us safe, and that's the primary job of the government.

Agreed, which is why I still support him - even if he angers me sometimes.

276 The Hoopster  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:45:24am

re: #240 Racer X

The next batch of youngsters needs to understand their life has value and they can live in peace with the Jews.

Unfortunately their fathers and uncles will never let this message get to the younger generation.


Don't blame the parents.. It's that damn Mickey Mouse on Pali TV that tells the kids to kill the jews.. We get that sucka and we are good to go.
/

277 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:45:48am

re: #264 Wyatt Earp

You can go blind by pocket fishing.

Watch out for the hook!

278 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:46:20am

re: #223 Iron Fist

I disagree with you about the utility of striking all of Gaza. What Israel is doing right now is losing the war slowly, but certainly. Every time they wipe our Hamas' leadership there are other terrorists waiting to fill their shoes. Dying in the line of "duty" isn't a threat to these motherfuckers at all. It's like threatening a kid with chocolate, if you follow. "If you don't do X, you'll have to eat this candybar!"

That's going nowhere fast.

If Israel is going to win this long-term, then something has to be done to keep new terrorists from stepping up to fill the shoes of the terrorist that we just whacked. We have to attack the tree, not just the tree's leaves.

Agree with your image of attacking the tree, not just the leaves.
But that tree is Islam, and specifically th Qur'an which demands of its believers to kill all Jews, everywhere.
Israel, on its own, can only deal with the leaves - and a single tree whose leaves are all torn off, has a very hard time to recover.
Tear the new leaves off again and again, and it will eventually die.

Israel alone cannot do this, and it certainly cannot and will not indiscriminately kill all and everybody.
Israel cannot and will not become like the terrorist monster Hamas.

279 Dustyvet  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:46:20am

re: #251 Outrider

they always seem to be able to find an endless supply of Israeli and American flags.

Yeah they working 3 shifts 24/7 to produce those...

280 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:46:23am

re: #271 Joo-LiZ

Is it just me, or have there been VERY few casualties since the initial strikes on Saturday?

I keep reading and hearing that Israel has intensified it's bombardment and is continuing it's assault, but the number's I'm hearing don't seem to correlate... The first strikes killed maybe ~280 and now it's a little over 300?

That's quite remarkable if you ask me... just goes to show Israel knows what it is hitting.

I wonder how they are getting their intelligence. Traitors?

281 Opinionated  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:46:58am

re: #261 Silas

Why do they still call that area a refugee camp? I see pictures of the place and I see cement buildings, paved streets, sidewalks, street lights. It’s not a refugee camp, it’s a city.

Someone really does need to publish a "Mideast Peace Process Dictionary"

There you can look up:

Cease fire- When Israel ceases and Hamas fires.

Militant- An Arab who murders innocents- Also an Israeli settler

Terrorist- Only an Israeli settler

Occupied- Any area where we want to blame the Jews for it being a shithole.

More.

282 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:47:03am

re: #248 rightymouse

Here's the list of crazies.

"Experienced human rights activists". Heh.

And reporters from Al-Jazeera and CNN... why am not expecting "neutral, unbiased reporting"?

283 Quilly Mammoth  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:47:03am

Happy Birthday, Baby Jesus!

On Tuesday Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Sharia criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, the code legalizes crucifixion.

I know! Let's give these people a country!

284 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:47:22am
285 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:47:37am

re: #224 Killgore Trout

Addendum: At 0:20 there's a strike on a missile launch site inside one of those nice greenhouses that was given to the Palestinians.

Yeah - greenhouses are not for growing things but for storing rockets, in Hamas' books.

Nice secondary explosions, though!

286 cracker-crusader  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:47:41am

Killian

B***SH*T.

I want to see Western media outlets do more than reflexively root for the "non-Western" side in any and every single armed conflict involving a Western Power. I want to see them grow some friggin perspective and stop crying and bleating about "collateral damage". There used to be a time actually that civilian deaths meant you'd already lost the war! You could no longer protect your citizens. Now in the West our enemies attack us, and saddle us with FULL responsibility for what happens to their civilians. Sheesh, no wonder the Chinese think we're a joke.

The prevailing message we send to our enemies is that if we lose the war, we're, well, losers. And if we win we are even bigger losers. And if our bombs hit any civilians that's even bigger proof that the Western Power is losing. In other words Western media playing into the politics of envy and sour grapes, masquerading as rooting for the underdog.

What I see is a snivelling band of seditious media sycophants constantly persuading the non-Western world that whatever happens, we're no way to end up. Being married to someone form the non-Western world, I am privy to real attitudes "on the streets" of places like Calcutta, Phnom Pengh, and similar places. Believe me if you guys knew how the MSM make us look to people overseas...

287 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:48:07am

Is it just me or does the following caption make no sense?

Palestinians gather at the scene of an Israeli missile strike on a building in the Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip. Gazans cowered in their homes as Israeli warplanes led a deadly assault on Palestinian militants.

Are they gathering at the scene of a strike, or cowering in their homes?

Picture 13

288 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:48:31am

re: #280 MandyManners

I wonder how they are getting their intelligence. Traitors?

Fatah supporters more likely...

Abbas is getting his revenge on Hamas.

289 notutopia  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:49:04am

re: #280 MandyManners

Coms and personnel embeds.

290 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:49:34am

re: #204 Alouette

Dachau, Germany, Dec. 28 — The family of Frau Lili Von Schlimm, the wife of SS Oberschutztaffel Johann Schlimm did not sleep. The Allied airstrikes and the explosions, the sirens and the screams of strangers outside their house near the Buchenwald concentration camp kept them awake into the predawn hours Sunday.

At the first light of dawn, the mother of five sent her son to the bakery to buy bread. Hundreds of Germans had the same idea, joining a never-ending line. “There’s no food in the market,” Frau Schlimm explained in an interview with a reporter. Her son did not return until nightfall.

Then came another airstrike close to their villa, rocking the house and shattering the windows. “Our children started screaming in a crazy way,” she recalled. “After each airstrike, my sons ask me: ‘Why are we targeted? Will they arrest us? Will they come after us?’ I tell them not to panic. We are far away from the shelling. But then tonight, the bombing reached our doorsteps.”


F*ck'n A.

291 Spiny Norman  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:50:10am

re: #288 buzzdroid

re: #280 MandyManners

I wonder how they are getting their intelligence. Traitors?

Fatah supporters more likely...

Abbas is getting his revenge on Hamas.

My thoughts as well. The Israelis may also have infiltrators.

292 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:50:15am

re: #242 Thanos

Just a reminder : after we firebombed Dresden and other locales in Germany the factories were moved to the Black forest and other outdoor locations under netting. Germans returned to work in them with renewed ardor and worked longer shifts.

All the Vi and V2 production was moved into caves in the HArz Mountains - and the workers who worked there with renewed ardour were Jewish slaves from the KZs, worked to death by their masters, especially one Herr Speer ...

293 lifeofthemind  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:50:23am

re: #161 Racer X

The most sickening part?

If the Palestinians took all the money they received and instead of building rockets and mortars they used that money to build a Mediterranean oasis with hotels and shops and commerce, they would have a really nice city on the beach.

But no.

They do not want a Club Med paradise, it would be haram.
Gaza could be filled with hotels and swimming pools and shipyards and greenhouses. That would mean also, foreign women in bikinis and alcohol and sex and books and music and drugs, in other words all of God's green earth. They do not want that, they want to fulfill Allah's will which is to pray, breed, kill and die.

294 Outrider  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:51:07am

re: #279 Dustyvet

Yeah they working 3 shifts 24/7 to produce those...

I've often wondered where they all get their flags, Every piss-ant country in the world always seem to be able to come up with plenty of American flags to burn on the spur of the moment.

Is there some kind of terrorist home shopping network that allows these guys to always keep a back up American flag to burn for those spontaneous demonstrations?

295 Killian Bundy  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:51:24am

re: #286 cracker-crusader

And, what's your point?

/what do you suggest we do about it?

297 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:52:01am

re: #287 Joo-LiZ

Is it just me or does the following caption make no sense?


Are they gathering at the scene of a strike, or cowering in their homes?

Picture 13

Utter BS

298 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:52:08am

re: #281 Opinionated

Someone really does need to publish a "Mideast Peace Process Dictionary"

There you can look up:

Cease fire- When Israel ceases and Hamas fires.

Militant- An Arab who murders innocents- Also an Israeli settler

Terrorist- Only an Israeli settler

Occupied- Any area where we want to blame the Jews for it being a shithole.

More.

"Cannister of gas" - a bomb
"Workshop" - bomb factory
"Workshop accident" - the bomb went off prematurely
"dead children" - lots of Hamas terrorists gone to get their 72 raisins.

299 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:52:14am

re: #280 MandyManners

I wonder how they are getting their intelligence. Traitors?

Satellite photos, and I'm sure they have a lot of human resources. Undercover Sephardic Israeli's infiltrating and looking around.

I'm in the camp that believes most Gazan's don't want Hamas; so I think a lot of Gazan's would be willing to turn traitor (so long as no other Pali's find out about it, or there'd be hell to pay).

(I don't think they knew what they were voting for when they voted Hamas in, they were just voting against Fatah's corruption. As for the Charles' posted video -- that's a helluva lot of people, but I bet most of them were forced out of their homes for the propaganda value)

300 Miss Molly  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:52:20am

Cynthia Mckinney is joining Hamas in Gaza! That is truely allowing the inmates to run the mental institution. Cynthia will grab all the camera time from the Western media which probably explains why she never has time to fix her hair. Perhaps Hamas would consider keeping her in Gaza for a very long time.

301 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:52:24am

re: #293 lifeofthemind

They do not want a Club Med paradise, it would be haram.
Gaza could be filled with hotels and swimming pools and shipyards and greenhouses. That would mean also, foreign women in bikinis and alcohol and sex and books and music and drugs, in other words all of God's green earth. They do not want that, they want to fulfill Allah's will which is to pray, breed, kill and die.

it would not be their choice to make...they can leave

302 buzzdroid  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:53:19am

re: #291 Spiny Norman

My thoughts as well. The Israelis may also have infiltrators.

indeed.. folks sometimes forget just how BLOODY and violent the Hamas takeover was. Fatah folks being thrown from buildings...

theres a lot of folks in Gaza just itching for revenge...

303 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:53:34am

re: #241 MandyManners

Not if the IDF fills up the vacuum.

Israel does not want to stay in Gaza - they want to destroy Hamas and then get out as quickly as possible. If the Israelis give Gazans a choice between IDF and Fatah, they will choose Fatah. If Fatah is not up to the job then Israel will probably have no choice but to reoccupy.

304 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:53:47am

re: #288 buzzdroid

re: #289 notutopia

How ever they're doing it, they're doing it exceptionally well.

305 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:53:53am

re: #296 Alouette

Jimmy Carter proudly announces his official position as advisor to Hamas.


I flew to Paris with Jeffrey and met with other Elders at Le Bristol

So gay.

306 bulwrk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:53:59am

re: #242 Thanos

The bombing of Dresden was intended to cut railroad links to Berlin from the Ruhr Valley Germany's industrial heart just before the Russian offensive at Stalin's request.

307 rightymouse  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:54:19am

re: #282 Spiny Norman

"Experienced human rights activists". Heh.

And reporters from Al-Jazeera and CNN... why am not expecting "neutral, unbiased reporting"?

But..but..they are journalists.

/

308 Pietr  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:54:38am

re: #260 opnion

No matter how you slice this even the upper command of Hamas are a bunch of superstitious primitives.
What do they fear? They fear denial of paradise. General Pershing understood that. It should be common knowledge that all terrorists will be buried upside down with bacon in their mouths. Could work & save lots of lives.


While talking to an IDF Captain once, I proposed just that! He replied that despite their supposed commitment to Islam and it's tenets, most jihadis/explodydopers were just 'lethal/crazy killers who delight in violence'...so the threat would not be a deterrent. I took him serious...

309 itellu3times  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:55:49am

re: #107 Spare O'Lake

The Hamas terrorists have announced that they will not stop the terror attacks.
Don't close your eyes to the reality.
Hamas must be eliminated.
When they stop the terror attacks and sue for peace, Israel will be ready.

I don't think there really is an Hamas, in that way. Just a few guys in offices who makes speeches, and a couple thousand guys with a couple of rockets each, who pretty much make their own decisions when to fire.

And every kid in Gaza wants to have a rocket or three.

Hamas will be eliminated when the people of Gaza tie up a few officials and hand them over, and the thousands of fools will turn in their rockets, or at least sit on them, rather than see their entire block leveled by counterfire.

Really, shouldn't Israel respond as randomly as the Palestinians fire? The problem with that, is that 99% of the Pali missiles, don't hit anything. Does't really matter in the larger scheme of things, though, does it?

OK, I said I'm sour about this, just maybe Israel's tactics are the best they can apply right now. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I have trouble believing it, is all.

310 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:56:14am
311 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:57:21am

re: #252 Iron Fist

GB-39? A google gets me a bunch of Chinese medicine links about the galbladder 39 point. Do you mean some kind of fuel-air bomb?

Blegh GBU-39

What Israel is using right now.

312 albusteve  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:57:28am

re: #303 Spare O'Lake

Israel does not want to stay in Gaza - they want to destroy Hamas and then get out as quickly as possible. If the Israelis give Gazans a choice between IDF and Fatah, they will choose Fatah. If Fatah is not up to the job then Israel will probably have no choice but to reoccupy.

Fatah is not an option as far as I'm concerned...the whole paradigm needs to be drastically altered...occupation will require zero weapons or explosives...totally sealed borders...the great experiment has failed

313 Pietr  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:57:45am

re: #273 Alouette

My tiny violin is too large. I need one that can only be seen through a SEM.

ask the nanobot lizards for help-they were working on one the other night...:>)

314 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:58:29am

re: #254 bulwrk

Why?


1. Iran
2. Syria
3. Hezbollah
A vacuum is very quickly filled.

315 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:58:38am

re: #297 Ben Hur

Utter BS

Now we have fireswarms

316 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:59:28am
317 bulwrk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:00:12pm

re: #314 Spare O'Lake

1. Iran
2. Syria
3. Hezbollah
A vacuum is very quickly filled.


And who do you suppose has been propping up hamas?

318 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:02:58pm

re: #310 Iron Fist

Yep - Israel must know that they cannot rely on B0 at all, and that there will be no help from him, not politically, not materially.

I pray that he's only in the White House for one term.
McCain, for all his faults described here on LGF, at least understands war and why one must support ones only ally in the ME.

319 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:03:56pm
320 looking closely  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:05:00pm

re: #223 Iron Fist

I disagree with you about the utility of striking all of Gaza. What Israel is doing right now is losing the war slowly, but certainly. Every time they wipe our Hamas' leadership there are other terrorists waiting to fill their shoes. Dying in the line of "duty" isn't a threat to these motherfuckers at all. It's like threatening a kid with chocolate, if you follow. "If you don't do X, you'll have to eat this candybar!"

That's going nowhere fast.

If Israel is going to win this long-term, then something has to be done to keep new terrorists from stepping up to fill the shoes of the terrorist that we just whacked. We have to attack the tree, not just the tree's leaves.


This is like a bit like pest control.

You know you can't rid of ALL the roaches, short of burning down your house.

You just want to re-establish the equilibrium, so that there are only small numbers of residual roaches remaining, and you don't have to see them very often.

Now Israel is under no illusions that this attack (or any series of attacks) will altogether eliminate Gazan terrorism. The point is to significantly reduce the Gazan Hamas' *ability* to conduct terrorism, by depriving it of a. the physical hardware of terrorism (its guns, mortars and ammo, rockets and shops) and its ability to obtain more (eg the smuggling tunnels), b. the personnel (eg the terrorists) c. leadership necessary to coordinate and plan attacks, and d. support of the locals that enable all of the above.

"a" is particularly important, because the Israelis know that Hamas has been accumulating caches of more serious weaponry from Iran, and Israel does not want to give Hamas a chance to use it. Probably the vast majority of that stuff was knocked out in the first five minutes of this "war".

In any case, when the smoke clears, there will still be a HAMAS, only it should be substantially weakened, both in its physical abilities, as well as its influence.

321 Bubblehead II  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:05:28pm

re: #258 pass the moonbaticide

You mean this one?

322 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:05:52pm

The White House isn't calling for a cease-fire, despite what the local radio's top of the hour news reported. They're calling for Hamas to end their attacks on Israel, then agree to respect a cease-fire. The way the radio reported it, one was inclined to believe that President Bush was calling for an immediate unilateral cease-fire from Israel.

323 yma o hyd  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:06:22pm

re: #317 bulwrk

And who do you suppose has been propping up hamas?

All the Western and European humanitarian aid organisations, the USA and the Eu with all the millions of $$$ pumped into Gaza: the aid organisations feed the Gazans while the money goes to Iran for armaments for Hamas.
Nice ...
And nobody in Gaza needs to work or grow things for themselves ...

324 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:07:04pm

re: #317 bulwrk

And who do you suppose has been propping up hamas?

Exactly! That's why they will need to prevent a pro-Iranian government in Gaza.

325 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:07:24pm
326 hazzyday  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:10:07pm

I don't think it is wise to judge the Palestinians by Western standards. They are deserving of a forced overthrow of their government in the interest of human decency. The whole area is a death cult for kids. We should view anyone that supports the Palestinians as anti-human.

It's time to end Hamas and Hezbollah and give all those people a chance for a good life.

327 bulwrk  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:10:49pm

re: #324 Spare O'Lake

Maybe I'm dense but I am not getting your point.You don't want to destroy one govt dedicated to the destruction of Israel because it might be replaced with another?

328 Buck  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:12:20pm

re: #161 Racer X

The most sickening part?

If the Palestinians took all the money they received and instead of building rockets and mortars they used that money to build a Mediterranean oasis with hotels and shops and commerce, they would have a really nice city on the beach.

But no.

Could have been like Lebanon, very nice... AND it would be JEW FREE! An added bonus for the European vacationing anti semites.

329 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:15:22pm
330 baconeatingkaffir  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:15:42pm

re: #328 Buck

Could have been like Lebanon, very nice... AND it would be JEW FREE! An added bonus for the European vacationing anti semites.

Yeah. Ive had several discussions with moonbats about this one. "Free Palestine" bullshit. If you rid them of Islam they'll be free. Compare Gaza and Israel.. where is it still safe to drink a beer and chat with members of the opposite sex ?

331 HippieforLife  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:16:50pm

re: #287 Joo-LiZ

Yeah, that caption was pretty strange. I was a little confused about the prisoners escaping that the headline described as "innocents".

332 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:19:14pm
333 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:19:55pm

re: #327 bulwrk

Maybe I'm dense but I am not getting your point.You don't want to destroy one govt dedicated to the destruction of Israel because it might be replaced with another?

Destroy Hamas (pro-Iranian).
Give Fatah (not pro-Iranian) another chance.

334 debutaunt  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:23:30pm

re: #284 Iron Fist

You are really making a point that needs to be made clear.

The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't go back to work the next day. Japan surrendered.

Something has to be done. The strategies that have been used so far have failed.

I have proof that being kind to rude people does no positive good.

335 superjan  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:29:45pm

In Holland its extremely bad. All media Except Geenstijl.nl and political parties
(except wilders) biased against Israel.

336 EuskalHerria  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:29:46pm

Kaixo!

Just my 2 cents worth: It is foolish and wrong to blame Israel for the mess in the so-called "Palestinian" homeland. Would any other country fail to respond to the continued firing of rockets and mortars into its cities? Hamas doesn't want "peace"; those bloody Islamic thugs want to destroy Israel's will to defend itself, to protect itself from the Ummah, the often expressed desire of all the Islamic states to destroy the Jews, those "vile descendants of apes and pigs" according to the Prophet Muhammad, uswa hasana al-Kamil al-Insan, the "perfect man", who is to be followed obediently in all of his actions, including pillage, rape, murder, and subjugation of all Kuffars who refuse to convert to Islam, or become subservient Dhimmis, paying the jizya, or fighting or fleeing. The Palestinian people are steeped in hate and self-pity; their children are taught most carefully to despise all non-Muslims and to aspire to martyr themselves in the spirit of Jihad. The East Bank and Gaza Strip are hellholes of the Palestinians' own making. There never was a historical Palestine, and the Muslim states surrounding Palestine have a vested interest in making Palestinian' lives as miserable as possible, to stir them up against Israel. Talk about compassion? Israeli hospitals are treating wounded Palestinians all of the time, and Israel does allow humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. Hamas deliberately hides behind women and children to do their bloody acts.

The true solution to peace in the Middle East is for the Islamic states to give up their goal to destroy Israel, a kuffar state in the midst of Dar al-Islam. However, the indelible directives in the Qu'ran and the hadiths to wage war against the Jews, Christians, and polytheists are all-encompassing, and thus any "peace treaties" (hudnas) are agreed to only so that the Muslims may rearm and restore their fighting ability, and to wear down Israel's resolve to defend itself. May Israel continue to defnd itself by all means necessary!

Gero arte!

337 Grandma  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:33:04pm

Finally somebody said it. I’ve always wondered about the term “innocents”. I’m sure there are a few, but when those innocents allow the Hamas Gangbangers to populate their neighborhoods with weapons factories, rocket launching pads, facilities for storing arms, and to indoctrinate their children into hate and violence oriented activity, what do they expect when the game goes down?

It is really unfortunate that the Paleo’s have no bread or medical supplies today. Had they asked me, I would have suggested that they stock up when their majority supported Hamas was lobbing rockets into Israel for such a long time, and continued to do that (albeit rather ineffectively). Maybe now, they’ll take a good look at Hamas and can get fed up.

338 Areozol  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:35:24pm

Charles,

Although I agree, that this whole mess and suffering is a result of Hamas actions, I want to warn you, that you are going dangerously too close to "collective punishment" paradigm.

Just few days before there were superb piece on PJM on how the blockade of Gaza Strip is streghchening Hamas: [Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

339 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:43:23pm

re: #338 Areozol

Charles,

Although I agree, that this whole mess and suffering is a result of Hamas actions, I want to warn you, that you are going dangerously too close to "collective punishment" paradigm.

Just few days before there were superb piece on PJM on how the blockade of Gaza Strip is streghchening Hamas: [Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

No, I'm not anywhere near advocating collective punishment. I approve of how Israel has carried out these operations, with highly targeted strikes, doing their best to avoid civilian casualties.

My point is that far too many Westerners never look at this any deeper than, "Oh they're hurt and suffering and they don't have food!" -- when the reality is that the Palestinians in Gaza have largely brought all this suffering upon themselves.

The message is: if you don't want to be hurt when Israel bombs the weapons depot in your neighbor's garage, don't let them put the weapons depot there. If you'd rather have food than weapons, use your greenhouses for growing food instead of hiding smuggling tunnels. If you really want your own state, act like it.

But if you don't do any of those things, and instead openly support murder and kidnapping and atrocities, don't expect sympathy when Israel acts.

340 Bill K.  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:44:28pm

The only "innocents" in Gaza are those actively opposing Hamas by helping Israel target them and the very young. The former realize that Israel has the right to defend herself and that civilian casualties are an inevitable part of war.

Everyone else in Gaza directly or indirectly supports Hamas. They are responsible for the government they elect. Even those that did not vote for Hamas cannot claim exemption from Israeli attack. It is their government that is attacking Israel. If they want to live in peace they must remove Hamas in any way they can or sit tight while Israel does so and hope a bomb does not fall on them in the meantime.

341 Tazzerman  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:46:40pm

Where was the U.N. and Ban Ki-moon when Hamas was raining down rockets and mortars prior to Israel striking back? Where was the international community as innocent civilians were being targeted indiscriminately?

This has been going on for far to long and Israel has EVERY right to defend itself and it's people. If it was up to me, I'd have already declared war OFFICIALLY and in writing.

The sad thing is this: the international community, in the form of a TRUE United Nations, could have stopped this bloodshed virtually anytime since 1967 or 1948 for that matter.

Part of the problem is the UNRWA!

UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, was established by United Nations General Assembly resolution 302 (IV) of 8 December 1949 to carry out direct relief and works programmes for Palestine refugees. The Agency began operations on 1 May 1950.

I quote directly from Karen AbuZayd, Commissioner General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency

"Over-arching all these rights, is the right to self determination, the right to a state of which the Palestinians have been deprived through sixty years of exile and dispossession"

I'm sorry but the palis WHERE given the right to a state and to self determination. It was called the U.N. Partition plan and they, at the behest of their fellow muslims, turned it down and attacked the newly created state of Israel instead.

THAT was their self-determination.

Lets also NOT forget that it was the U.N. ITSELF that created the partition plan.

These people can NOT have it both ways and they can NOT be allowed to wash their hands of their responsibility in creating this entire situation.

Lets also not forget that Gaza itself was administered by Egypt from 1950 until 1967. Why where these refugee camps still needed at that point? Why was a so called pali nation NOT created at that point? Why does the U.N. STILL, to this very day, have a special agency who's SOLE purpose is to perpetuate the pali refugee issue in and around Israel while ALL other refugee's around the world are covered by The Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)

The U.N. has leveled virtually every known form of resolution at Israel, an entity IT CREATED ITSELF! but yet cannot even define the word terrorism, refused to acknowledge the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are proxies controlled from Tehran and cannot even get up enough fucking gumption to condemn rockets and mortars being fired indiscriminately at innocent civilians in defiance of ALL known ethical behavior AND the much vaunted Declaration of Human Rights?

I'm sick and tired of the duplicity and the total lack of historical context let alone the lack of responsibility that U.N. has shown over the past 60 years.

Israel as always, is in this alone and will sink or swim by it's OWN hand without help from anybody. The time for reckoning is now. Get the job done once and for all with as few causalities as possible. Send in the tanks, send in the troops, clear Hamas and every other terror organization out of Gaza, cut the links to Tehran and finally, get the UNRWA and the U.N. out of Gaza 100% and close those refugee camps.

Maybe then, the palis living in Gaza will have a fighting chance at a life.

342 loggiedog  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 12:57:29pm

Note how they are not afraid of being bombed in public, since they know Israel wouldn't bomb these "innocent"(yeah right) Hamas supporters in groups of 10000.

343 notutopia  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 1:33:45pm

“There is no such thing as a ‘disproportionate response’ to calls for genocide.”
[Link: sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com...]

344 A.W.  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 1:51:25pm

Its so sadly predictable. Hamas target civilians. But because they are muslim, they can't be held to the same standards as, say, the jews. Ditto on the people who vote to put them into power.

It all comes down to this. Long ago a bunch of Muslims went overboard taking territory in the holy land. in response, a bunch of christians also went overboard. lots of brutal shit happened. But because of some disease in their culture, only our culture felt bad about our going overboard.

So now we don't support isreal because we are afraid we are inching toward a crusade. But the functional result is anti-semitic and indeed anti-muslim becuase it encourages the muslims to do this childish sh--, with isreal's response being the inevitable result.

And the passed on guilt is a disease in our culture too. it is actually a moral failing. After all, if I am responsible for the crusades somehow, then how to i let off the jews for killing jesus? the right answer isn't to deny the account of the new testament, but instead to say that the only people who did wrong by jesus were the actual people who killed him, which, yes includes some people who happen to be jews. But their children, even, were not to blame, let alone people separated by thousands of years. And likewise, i am not responsible for any of the crud that went on with the crusades even if i am the direct blood descendant of King Richard himself.

So we need to free our minds. look at this in terms of the present tense. who is currently, personally, responsible for the sh-- going on.

And in that moral clarity, we have to recognize that while Isreal correctly will avoid civilian casualties, any that happen will be on hamas's head most directly and on every idiot who voted voted for hamas, or supported them of their own free will. in other words, most of the palestinian people.

345 Red Lion  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:03:33pm

Amen, Charles!

346 Blackacre  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:08:10pm

re: #296 Alouette

Jimmy Carter proudly announces his official position as advisor to Hamas.

From Alouette's link -- the very recent words of the inaugural Idiotarian of the Year, terror enabler, and midwife to Islamofascism, Jimmy Carter:

In the afternoon Bob, Hrair, and I met with Khaled Mashaal and his fellow Hamas politburo members, all of whom are scientists, medical doctors, or engineers – none trained in religion. It was the anniversary of Hamas' founding, and they were watching Prime Minister Haniya's speech in Gaza to an enormous crowd. We discussed items on my agenda that included an extension of the ceasefire in Gaza, life there under the Israeli sanctions, the Arab peace initiative, reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah, the future of Palestinian leadership and elections in the West Bank and Gaza, and formulas for prisoner exchange to obtain the release of Corporal Shalit.

Spit.

347 spankerfish  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:15:45pm

war sucks. elections have consequences. eat dirt.

348 Viper1  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:18:45pm

When you have weeds in your garden, you must pull them ALL out by the roots or they grow back to plague you over and over, looks like Israel is doing some long overdue gardening. Go Israel!

349 Sifty  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:23:47pm

Checked my brain area again, just to be sure. Yeppers, all out of give-a-shit for the Fakestinians.

350 Sifty  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:24:52pm

re: #346 Blackacre

I love the part about reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah.

Maybe on the way down after being pushed off a roof?

351 theheat  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 2:32:46pm
At some point, though, don’t we need to ask, “How innocent are those ordinary Gazan civilians, anyway?”

That 'point' would be before the first attack was ever launched by Israel. If Israel wasn't prepared to break things and kill people, they never should have mounted an attack. Fortunately, Israel doesn't seem to be as conflicted as the rest of the world.

Personally, I would have no qualms about leveling an area that continually launched attacks into my country. If that kills puppies and babies and old people on medication, well... I think that's the whole point, isn't it?

Meanwhile, impotent knowitalls like the US and the Vatican will condemn the violence. Lots of finger wagging there.

If DC and Vatican City had rockets launched into their backyard daily by Jihadis, they might grow some balls about the situation, or at least some perspective. Until then, it's much easier to tell Israel what they should and shouldn't tolerate, and condone endless cheek turning and meaningless dialogs, year after year after year.

The only way to stop Hamas is to kill every last one of them, including their supporters i.e. residents It's not a difficult concept. Unfortunately, that means actually killing people. That's where the US and Vatican are ill-prepared to proceed, and even less qualified to have an opinion.

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:02:03pm

re: #206 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You know something is wrong when the average American would be safer walking around in Bagdad than in visiting the average border town with Mexico.

I went through Tijuana a few months ago, and didn't even get shot at. Of course, I was screaming out the rental car window in very bad Spanish demanding directions to my cousin's wedding, so the drug cartels may have figured that taking on an hysterical woman with a fresh manicure was a poor idea.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:06:13pm

re: #220 Wyatt Earp

I think she's bringing some Bush is the Devil signs, too. Don't how edible they are, but . . .

I don't really know where these visitors, and human shields and such stay, but I always imagine that they get billeted on civilian families who have to put up with them for weeks while they ooze sympathy and use up all the toothpaste.

354 ErnieG  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:07:34pm

Um Shadi al-Bardaweel? What about her sisters: Er, Ah, and the one who lives in Canada, Eh?

355 SpiritOf1683  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:11:17pm

re: #256 jwb7605

I can.
The last six months of his presidency have been a nightmare.
I voted for him both times.


Last six months? More like the last two and a half years, when his administration screamed "Ceasefire" at the Israelis back in the summer of 2006, when Hizbollah terrorists fired 4,000 rockets into Northern Israel. This sent out a signal to the whole Islamic world that Israel and the West wasn't serious about dealing with Islamic terrorism, and informed the Russian and Chinese leadership that the West was weak, pathetic, and paralysed by political correctness - and this paralysis was something they'd exploit two years later in Tibet and Georgia.

356 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:12:51pm

re: #261 Silas

Why do they still call that area a refugee camp? I see pictures of the place and I see cement buildings, paved streets, sidewalks, street lights. It’s not a refugee camp, it’s a city.
A refugee camp is people living in tents, cardboard boxes, under sheets, that’s a refugee camp.
The media has corrupted the language to suit their political leanings.

It's a refugee camp because they want to remind everyone it is only temporary.

357 amateurpundit  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:18:48pm

The sheer boredom of being Palestinian must be excruciating. Can you imagine being forced to spend hours at a stupid rally like this? It makes my feet hurt just thinking about it. The hell of being Palestinian must be unendurable. You can't speak your mind. You can't acquire anything. All you have is your tribe and a green tee shirt and a ski mask that you have to wear in 100-degree weather. No sports cars, just Kalashnikovs. People are always hitting on you to blow yourself up. Teenage boys are always shoving automatic weapons in your face. After years of struggle you win a few greenhouses, and inside of fifteen minutes they're stripped down to nothing. If I were standing in that crowd, I'd be saying, "Napalm me, put me out of my misery."

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:19:38pm

re: #332 Iron Fist

And you wonder why Israel is called the "Little Satan"? Next you'll be telling me that Israeli girls positively flaunt their naked wrists and ankles in public. It's no wonder the Mohammedans want to kill all of them.

[/sarcasim, people. It's just sarcasm]

Sadly, there are Jews in Israel who have similar feelings about wrists and ankles...

359 pleaseandthankyou  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:20:04pm

My view is that the Palestinians have brought this upon themselves, as they are a culture suffused through and through with violence, hatred, revenge, and victim identity. Their tactics of using suicide operations against innocent Israeli citizens, woman, students, children are despicable. Many times we have seen Palestinian "child abuse" videos whereby the young are taught hatred from the earliest of ages. Nevertheless, and rightly, the Israeli army spends millions on GPS guided munitions to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties. In this country, we make great moral distinction between intentional homicide and accidental homicide in our courts of law, resulting in penalties that vary from walking free (accidental) to death (intentional). The Palestinians, or American liberals for that matter, do not wish to acknowledge that distinction when innocents are killed in Gaza. It's all murder to them and it justifies their own indiscriminate killing.

I agree with Charles mostly, but the language in the post is a little troubling, per the comments of #338 (Areozol), in that they sound much like the justifications Al Qaeda, or Ward Churchill, made for deaths of innocent Americans on 9-11. That they were part of the system that elected our government and therefore equally as culpable as legitimate combatants. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way accusing Charles of being a "Ward Churchill", nor do I think the culpability of the citizenry is in any way equivalent. I'm merely pointing out the delicacy of using certain justifications, and I see that he has taken care not to imply that he supports carpet-bombing. Michelle Obama might have trouble finding reasons to be proud of this country but high on my list of hundreds is that we make these moral distinctions.

360 Hanoch  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:25:15pm

The scene is so familiar you could have precisely scripted it ahead of time.

1. The Arabs engage in repeated terrorist provocations.
2. They go essentially overlooked by the media.
3. Israel eventually wakes up and defends itself.
4. The media initially acknowledges that Israeli actions are taken in response to # 1.
5. The media, in short order, shifts into terrorist-apologist mode:
a. Contending Israeli force will never really solve anything;
b. Accusing Israel of using "disproportionate" force; and
c. Creating all sorts of "human interest" stories depicting the pathetic plight of Arab civilians.

361 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:33:25pm

re: #337 Grandma

Finally somebody said it. I’ve always wondered about the term “innocents”. I’m sure there are a few, but when those innocents allow the Hamas Gangbangers to populate their neighborhoods with weapons factories, rocket launching pads, facilities for storing arms, and to indoctrinate their children into hate and violence oriented activity, what do they expect when the game goes down?

It is really unfortunate that the Paleo’s have no bread or medical supplies today. Had they asked me, I would have suggested that they stock up when their majority supported Hamas was lobbing rockets into Israel for such a long time, and continued to do that (albeit rather ineffectively). Maybe now, they’ll take a good look at Hamas and can get fed up.

I feel lousy for ordinary people trapped in this mess, and I say that knowing that most of these ordinary people have been educated to want to kill my rear end.

Most people are not heroes or visionaries, and most people accept the rules of their society, especially when their safety and survival depends on it.

Innocents exist, even in Gaza, or at least people who don't deserve to die, and some of these people will die. That is one of the true and horrific truths about war. Luckily, Israel has good aim and good intelligence, and they'll keep the civilian toll as low as may be, God willing.

362 Hanoch  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 3:37:36pm

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

there are Jews in Israel who have similar feelings about wrists and ankles

Oh, come on now. Show me an instance where Jews stone or flog women for being insufficiently modest.

363 mattm  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 4:08:38pm

re: #8 Ringo the Gringo

By voting Hamas into power the Palestinians voted for war against Israel.

Now they've got the war they voted for.

But that would be too obvious for the MSM to report.

364 silas  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 8:18:37pm

re: #356 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a refugee camp because they want to remind everyone it is only temporary.


Oh I see, they’re living in that city, I mean “refugee camp” only temporally until the day comes when they kill all the Jews in Israel, then they’ll move into the dead Jews houses and everyone will live happily ever after, except the Jews, because they’ll be dead.
Them fuc**ng Palestinians are nuts. I hope the Jews pound them into submission, and then some.
And our bonehead media’s not helping things by adopting the crazy Palestinians values and calling their city’s “refugee camps”. Our media needs adult supervision, just like the Palestinians.

365 Yehudit  Mon, Dec 29, 2008 8:29:39pm

Mererhetoric debunks this. Just start at top and scroll down. (I am on iPhone and cannot paste URL)

1) plenty of food
2) Hamas interferes with supplies coming in, inc medical supplies.

366 SteveRogers  Tue, Dec 30, 2008 4:20:21am

re: #333 Spare O'Lake

Destroy Hamas (pro-Iranian).
Give Fatah (not pro-Iranian) another chance.

Destroy them both. They are both terrorist organizations and they both have attacked Israel repeatedly since their existence.
Giving Fatah another chance would be as useless as the last several chances they were given.
Terrorists don't deserve any chances.

367 cracker-crusader  Tue, Dec 30, 2008 9:09:43am

Declear the Crudase!

Seriously, though. Those who support their wars are usually ardent fans, right till they see their kids' stomachs torn open. Then all of a sudden they're the world's biggest pacifist, "oh I am just an innocent Gazan trying to get by..." As Al Qaeda repeatedly remind us: there are no innocent civilians in a democracy. Well, Gaza is a democracy, so if we're legitimate targets of war in the West (Madrid, London, New York), then the Gazans are too. Which raises the question: why isn't Israel pounding these bastards till they cry uncle collectively!?

Oh wait, we're not allowed to engage in collective punishment. There are those in Israel wondering if it isn't better to become more like China, Pakistan and India, and less like Belgium. Because those guys get a clear break when they bomb people. It will happen eventually, as one day the Israelis are going to turn to hatred in kind. It's called "blowback" if I recall...

368 cracker-crusader  Tue, Dec 30, 2008 9:26:44am

Man, you see what you see here. America, the state the West is in today vis a vis fighting terror is the fault of your political leadership in 1946. Yup, Churchill and Stalin wanted to make a public show of executing the Nazi leadership outright and summarily, as they had the moral right to do as victors, and as was the custom in war. But no, you guys' idiotic prosecutor had to have that ridiculous thing called "Nuremberg", and with a stroke, you allowed all kinds of cover and attitudes to war that have no place in the real world.

We are now reaping all this crap, pretending war isn't really war. Skewing the reasons, methods, and ultimately the chances of winning. Hamas is going to win in Gaza, because the Israelis will be prevented (by your government) from doing what you are supposed to do to people who attack you: F**K THEM UP till they tap out!

All they have to do is not lose. Their population will hail them as brave and steadfast. The next elections in Gaza will see Hamas made "government for life". And then they will rearm. And they will continue this cycle until Jews get fed up, and begin to emigrate, and cease to have children. This is already happening. I call it "Genocide by Stealth". Unless the Israelis renew the occupation of Gaza, Israel will reach a point where its Army is weakened by emigration, and a collapse in morale. Would you want to fight for Israel only to be told 2 years later it was all for nothing, and now you gotta go do it again? And the Pails fire at you from civilian houses, but you are not allowed to return fire because there are kids in there. This Israeli army is on its last legs at this rate. A coup, or widespread refusal to fight in the same old way will be the inevitable result.

I don't advocate targeting civilians, but I also don't advocate giving a s**t about them if they get hit. F**K em, they can wait for an ambulance. Call that my lingering bad attitude left over from combat experience in Cold War insurgencies in Third World countries. And believe me, we didn't go out of our way to avoid hurting civilians, and we didn't go out of our way TO hurt them. When and where we could we helped them (a great many times) but I stress, only UNLESS it came at no increased risk of harm to us!

Pinprick "precision" raids never, ever caused a people to surrender their ambitions. That only happens when they get tired EN MASSE of burying their kids.

369 cracker-crusader  Tue, Dec 30, 2008 9:34:01am

By the way before I am charged here with all manner of unspeakable thoughtcrimes, consider this: reprisals against a civilian population are NOT contrary to the rules of the Geneva Convention, as long as, in a military court convened by the "Occupying Power" they are found guilty after due process under the military laws of the Occupying Power, of an offence against the Occupying Power. Punishment should fit the crime (under due process) , but the death penalty is not "illegal" in any sense.

So captured Hamas gunmen can be executed if found guilty of having breached the common laws of warfare (example: hiding behind civilians, conducting indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas) etc. Unfortunately Israel has no death penalty. A critical flaw when at war!

370 cracker-crusader  Tue, Dec 30, 2008 9:41:50am

And my final point: (sorry Charles, bitter vet of the Cold War here)

If your enemy knew you didn't give a damn about his civilians if they got in the way of your killing him, why would he hide behind them?

I submit there'd be far fewer civilian casualties if the enemy knew you'd just kill them and not even cough. Hamas would be forced to (1) evacuate Gaza prior to the commencement of hostilities, or (2) since (1) is impossible, refrain from hostilities in the first place.

371 ridemedic  Tue, Dec 30, 2008 10:26:13pm

That stage would be an ideal IDF target . . ...


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 Frank says:

Gail has said in interviews that one of the things that makes our relationship work is the fact that we hardly ever get to talk to each other.