12 Elegant Examples of Evolution

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12 Elegant Examples of Evolution, compiled by the editors of Nature to celebrate the upcoming 200th birthday of Charles Darwin.

Dinosaurs of a Feather. Archaeopteryx, found in 1861, was long thought to be the first bird. Then it was recognized as something closer to a dinosaur with feathers — but still unique for that. In the 1980’s, however, paleontologists digging in deposits more than 65 million years old in northern China found feathered dinosaurs which very definitely did not fly. Some dinosaurs, it appeared, may have looked far different from our traditional conception — and feathers may first have served an insulating or aesthetic, rather than aerodynamic, purpose.

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1126 comments
1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:24:14pm

Y'know, I had friends in college that might have qualified as evidence of evolution.

2 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:24:23pm

Science is way kewl!

3 stevieray  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:25:13pm

The angriest chicken... ever!

4 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:25:18pm

I always thought the duck-billed platypus was an example of G-d using evolution for humor.

5 BignJames  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:25:26pm

Gettin' popcorn.

6 Wyatt Earp  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:26:06pm

My G_d, that looks like Nancy Pelosi on the Senate floor!

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:26:49pm

re: #5 BignJames

Gettin' popcorn.

Dude, it wants your popcorn. It is coming to get your popcorn.

8 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:27:12pm

Charles is up late tonight with the evolution threads.

I resolve to refrain from posting in these.

Oops.

9 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:27:33pm

re: #4 ggt

That what the "Old One" used all the leftover parts for!

10 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:28:02pm

Archaeopteryx...wasn't that a recurring character in the B.C. comic strip?

11 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:28:31pm

re: #9 pingjockey

That what the "Old One" used all the leftover parts for!

LOL!

12 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:29:37pm

re: #10 Sarge1984

Archaeopteryx...wasn't that a recurring character in the B.C. comic strip?

i CAN'T imagine how that is pronounced.

13 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:30:18pm

Forget evolution, vote Regressive Party in 2010!

The viable third party

14 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:30:46pm

re: #11 ggt
Maybe it was Australia and New Zealand as a whole. Cause there are more odd critters there than most any where else.

15 teleskiguy  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:30:50pm

Yes, Charles! Love the picture of the ghastly beautiful creature! Oh wait, it might be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, I better retract that "love" part, or face the fiery depths of Hell for all eternity! Seriously though, the conservatives need to get behind evolution, even social conservatives, 'cause it really exists, organisms do evolve to changing environments (at least outside the homo sapien species) and we could LEARN SO MUCH by accepting evolution and such elegant examples.

Speaking of evolving, here's a P.J. O'Rourke piece about the evolution of the House of the Future, or should I say, de-evolution.
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

16 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:30:55pm

re: #12 ggt

i CAN'T imagine how that is pronounced.

Arc - e - op - ter - ix

17 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:31:25pm

re: #12 ggt

Are key opt ter ix

18 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:31:31pm

Another evolution thread...

*sigh*

And still no turtle stack threads.

I'm beginning to thing Charles is anti-turtle-stackists!

/ ;-)

19 Silhouette  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:32:32pm
In the 1980’s,

In 1980's what? What does the single year 1980 possess?

/pet peeve

20 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:32:53pm

re: #18 jcm
remember, there is a sloth, or an anteater in that turtle stack somewhere.

21 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:33:41pm

re: #14 pingjockey

Maybe it was Australia and New Zealand as a whole. Cause there are more odd critters there than most any where else.

You know, there are some good jokes in there -- dang if I can't find them at this hour.

re: #16 Danderfoot

Arc - e - op - ter - ix

re: #17 pingjockey

Are key opt ter ix

THANK YOU BOTH very much --GMTA!

22 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:33:44pm

re: #10 Sarge1984

Archaeopteryx...wasn't that a recurring character in the B.C. comic strip?

You're thinking Apteryx, similar to the kiwi bird.

23 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:35:15pm

re: #21 ggt
No problem. My 8 year old has discovered the joy of dinosaurs and sounding out wild names is a game.

24 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:35:18pm

Isn't that a drawing of Obama's Christmas gift for his daughters?

/He thought it was a dog.

25 freedombilly  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:35:19pm

I like me some evolution!

26 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:36:09pm

re: #25 freedombilly

I like me some evolution!

Chicken fried?

27 SurferDoc  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:36:16pm

I dug up an asterix. *

28 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:37:42pm

If there was chickens like that around now. It'd be Col. Sanders Finger Lickin' Terrapin or Armadillo.

29 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:37:56pm

re: #26 EmmmieG

Chicken fried?

Is there another way?

30 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:38:00pm

That looks like something off an Iron Maiden album cover.

31 Wishing  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:38:18pm

Gnite, lizards! Sleep well!

32 Super-ego  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:38:32pm

When did the male/female species evolve?

Did all species begin with a one cell system or did a one cell system begin all species?

I am just a young lizard.

33 Last Mohican  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:38:53pm

I'm afraid it may be too late at night for a science thread. Pretty soon, someone's gonna scroll down to that picture of the cute little blue-and-yellow bird, read the caption, and all will be lost.

34 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:39:09pm

re: #29 Danderfoot

Lesse:
Baked, broiled, roasted, BBQ, poached, with dumplings, Shake-n-bake (for when you're feeling lazy), brined, and herbed. That's just off the top of my head.

Not chocolate-dipped, though. Can't think why.

35 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:39:14pm

re: #18 jcm

Behead those who insult the Turtle Stack!

36 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:40:21pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I see your turtle stack and raise you one Galopagos Tortise!

37 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:40:30pm

That aint no chicken. The only bird with teeth is the mascot for the Lewavul Cardinals.

38 Wishing  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:40:34pm

Had to jump back in: I just got this link. It looks Israel IS going to step up its PR battle to win the hearts and minds of free people everywhere!
IDFSpokesperson

39 Wishing  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:41:14pm

Good night again!
(Please pray for the peace of Jerusalem!)

40 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:41:53pm

Hmmm, a good thread starting and I am ready for bed. Be sure to tell red and Sharmuta to save any leavings in the Super Secret Fridge™.
/There's been so little meat lately.

41 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:42:00pm

re: #38 Wishing

Had to jump back in: I just got this link. It looks Israel IS going to step up its PR battle to win the hearts and minds of free people everywhere!
IDFSpokesperson

Thanks for that!

42 Emperor Norton  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:42:02pm

If the early bird gets the worm, then this Archaeopteryx, which was around 65 million years ago, was the earliest bird of all and probably had worms out the wazoo.

43 MacGregor  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:42:12pm

When our species evolved from say cromagnon, was it one newborn with the new dna or did many offspring appear with new similarly evolved dna? Wouldn't there be pressure on parents and communities to "wash it down the river" as deformed like in the old days?

Perhaps an environmental change such as an asteroid hit necessitated new dna to deal with issues such as heat-dissipation and the change was global, not local? Just wondering.

44 freedombilly  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:42:34pm

re: #26 EmmmieG

Chicken fried?

I like me some chicken fried!

45 avanti  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:43:15pm

More at the link, including the ID guys "explanation" that it's a God made bird with teeth.

toohed bird ?.

46 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:43:20pm

re: #20 pingjockey

remember, there is a sloth, or an anteater in that turtle stack somewhere.

Heretic!
You shall be boiled in a Turtle Shell caldron!
/

47 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:43:23pm

I like me some bed! Nite folks.

48 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:44:15pm

re: #46 jcm
Naaah Naaah. I be a Trusty Shellback! 4 times.

49 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:44:16pm

Is anyone else struck by the coloring the artist gave this critter?

The broken lines, spots and earth tones on the body are consistent with prey mammals, to stay hidden in brush and grass. However, what, if any, purpose would the brightly colored face proto-feathers serve on such an animal?

These guys need to get their stories straight lest people lose faith.
(now go *create* life in a test tube)

50 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:44:24pm

re: #6 Wyatt Earp
Uh, Wyatt - Nancy Pelosi is in the House of Representatives!
I thought you was a detective, eh?
("eh" when did I start speaking Canadian?!)!

51 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:44:58pm

re: #47 pingjockey

I like me some bed! Nite folks.

Night Ping..you da man..you da man

52 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:45:13pm

re: #14 pingjockey
Hey Ping! You mean now or then?!
:)

53 USBeast  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:45:18pm

Pretty bird...pretty bird...please don't eat me!

54 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:45:48pm

I think Eddie may have been part Archaeopteryx from his mother's side.

55 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:46:27pm

re: #51 HoosierHoops
Well thankee kindly. I am now officially an 'old fart' according to my kids. I was born one day after Fidels little revolution.

56 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:46:58pm

re: #52 realwest
I think it's for life!

57 pingjockey  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:47:38pm

Now I really am going. See ya all in the am!

58 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:47:49pm

re: #32 Super-ego
Ah be careful with your questioning grasshopper or you may not grow to be an old(er) lizard!

59 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:49:15pm

re: #57 pingjockey

Now I really am going. See ya all in the am!

I don't believe him. Does anyone believe him?

60 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:49:53pm

re: #41 ggt

Thanks for that!

If you like that, have you seen Bibi speak on any foreign networks? He is a grandmaster at laying out Israel's case plainly for the world to see.

Fox News:

Youtube Video

French News:

Youtube Video

Israel Channel 2:

Youtube Video
61 SurferDoc  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:50:07pm

Dunno. I think I hear footsteps going down the hall....

62 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:50:48pm

re: #43 MacGregor
Don't know the answer but I do love your avatar!

63 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:51:55pm

re: #49 Danderfoot

Its a chipmunk's body with a head from a mixture of a regular chicken, the San Diego chicken, an alligator, and a Florida Gator facepainting fan.

64 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:52:08pm

re: #43 MacGregor

I agree with RW, I updinged you for your avatar!

LOL

65 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:52:34pm

When one considers the paucity of the fossil record it is not surprising that recent discoveries have changed our understanding of life millennia past.

66 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:52:42pm

re: #34 EmmmieG

Lesse:
Baked, broiled, roasted, BBQ, poached, with dumplings, Shake-n-bake (for when you're feeling lazy), brined, and herbed. That's just off the top of my head.

Good cooks know to brine their fowl prior to frying.

Baking dries the meat, broiling anything but a filet would burn the top and not cook the meat through and through. Poaching doesn't conserve the flavor or texture, same as boiling with dough. Shake-n-bake is 'meh' at best, and a *proper* BBQ takes a little too much prep and time to be viable.

Don't argue with what works. Brush with egg, roll in white flour with salt, pepper and garlic powder, fry @ 375 in peanut oil.

67 MacGregor  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:52:44pm

re: #62 realwest
Thank you sir! Hope you're doing well tonight.

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:53:00pm

re: #60 Joo-LiZ

Thanks! I don't have time to look at them all now, but I faved them for tomorrow.

69 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:53:38pm

re: #55 pingjockey

Well thankee kindly. I am now officially an 'old fart' according to my kids. I was born one day after Fidels little revolution.

Well it's one thing when you get to knock the crap out of your boys when they drove the lane in basketball..And laughed when they cried..(kindof)
Then when they grow up and knock you on your ass and ask..are you ok pops? And help you up smiling...Corporal punishment should be a birthright for eternity..LOL

70 Danderfoot  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:54:03pm

re: #53 USBeast

Pretty bird...pretty bird...please don't eat me!

Karl Lagerfeld : Kill them before they kill you.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

71 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:54:11pm

re: #48 pingjockey

Naaah Naaah. I be a Trusty Shellback! 4 times.

ROFL!

72 Dublin(CA)Dude  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:54:15pm

RealWest, belated Happy New Year.

73 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:54:26pm

re: #48 pingjockey

Naaah Naaah. I be a Trusty Shellback! 4 times.

Only once for me - you must be a bit rough on the crossing.

74 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:56:34pm

Hmmm - didja all see this in Charles Link:

Lizard Games. Take an island in the Bahamas, add a predatory lizard called Leiocephalus carinatus, and the results are immediate. Males among the lizard's favorite prey, Anolis sagrei, soon became longer-legged, so as to better flee after drawing predatory attention during mating displays. In contrast, more sedentary females became larger, making them harder to ingest — a neat display of sex-specific selection pressures.

A predatory lizard? No way!

75 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:57:15pm

re: #72 Dublin(CA)Dude
Hey same to you my friend! Good to see you out here!
Uh, do I owe you an e-mail?!

76 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:57:25pm

re: #69 HoosierHoops

I play football catch with the 14 yo just about every day for 20 minutes or so every day unless its raining or snowing. Kids got a rocket for an arm. Catching the ball is more about self-defense than anything else. He got me a nice pair of receiving gloves for X-mas and they are already ripped to shreds. Help.

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:58:10pm

re: #70 Danderfoot

Karl Lagerfeld : Kill them before they kill you.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

I always knew I liked Karl for a reason . . .

78 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:58:43pm

re: #76 Mich-again Uh, Mich? Y'all could try standing further away, ya know?!

79 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:59:09pm

re: #74 realwest

Hmmm - didja all see this in Charles Link:

A predatory lizard? No way!

Well, I wouldn't call Lizards passive!

80 swamprat  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:59:22pm

Gene Flow, With Purpose. If dispersed by random animal migration, genes flowing across a region ought to dilute local pockets of genetic adaptation. But migration isn't as random as it seems: As seen in a population of great tits (the bird!) tracked in Oxfordshire, England since 1970, genes flow along channels of opportunity. Individual birds picking nesting spots best-suited to their particular traits, producing local adaptations in tiny parts of the same small forest. (These birds, incidentally, belonged to the same population that have shifted breeding times to match a changing climate.)

Youtube Video

Here is a vid on their nesting preferences
81 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:59:28pm

re: #27 SurferDoc

I dug up an asterix. *

You mean this Asterix?

82 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:59:29pm

re: #43 MacGregor

When our species evolved from say cromagnon, was it one newborn with the new dna or did many offspring appear with new similarly evolved dna? Wouldn't there be pressure on parents and communities to "wash it down the river" as deformed like in the old days?

Perhaps an environmental change such as an asteroid hit necessitated new dna to deal with issues such as heat-dissipation and the change was global, not local? Just wondering.

Complicated stuff. Evolution at the genetics level. (bio-chem major, with plenty of Genetics classes). Simple answers is it's a combination of all those things.

Genetic variation / mutation is subtle. Seldom is it a visible or obvious change.

In conjunction with changing environmental pressures, some changes may be more advantageous than with out the environmental change. Local and global changes all bring pressures.

83 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 9:59:50pm

re: #6 Wyatt Earp

My G_d, that looks like Nancy Pelosi on the Senate floor!

Well there went the third keyboard of the New Year...:P

84 avanti  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:00:52pm

re: #49 Danderfoot

Is anyone else struck by the coloring the artist gave this critter?

The broken lines, spots and earth tones on the body are consistent with prey mammals, to stay hidden in brush and grass. However, what, if any, purpose would the brightly colored face proto-feathers serve on such an animal?

These guys need to get their stories straight lest people lose faith.
(now go *create* life in a test tube)


I agree that a artists conception like that from a few fossilized bones is over the top if not deceptive. Fun to look at but just a blind guess. As to creating life in a test tube, give me a few 100 million years, heat, water and organic chemicals and I'd have a shot. The earth had all of that, maybe God gave it a kick start, but who knows.
We could all be here because some ancient alien left part of his sandwich on a rock or microbes from who knows where came in on a comet.

85 Dublin(CA)Dude  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:01:31pm

re: #75 realwest

Hey same to you my friend! Good to see you out here!
Uh, do I owe you an e-mail?!

I think we are even up.

86 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:01:58pm

re: #32 Super-ego

When did the male/female species evolve?


Can't give you an exact when but this site has a pretty good explanation of the how and the why.
[Link: evolution-101.blogspot.com...]
Chromosomes are long chains of DNA that operate, more or less, as discrete units of an organism’s genome. If an organism’s genome is like an encyclopedia, then you can think of them as the individual volumes. You don’t find chromosomes in bacteria- their genomes are just one long strand of DNA. But in all the organisms from yeast all the way to humans, chromosomes are used. Chromosomes help to organize an organism’s genome for the purpose of a process essential to sexual reproduction- called meiosis. Meiosis is a lot like the binary fission that bacteria use- the cell simply splits in half. But instead of reproducing the entire genome and passing it on, meiosis begins with two copies of the genome, and produces cells which only have one. But why start out with two copies? Well, having two copies of a gene is like having two copies of a book. If something happens to one copy, you have the second as a backup. In the case of genes, mutations are the primary threat, and so having another copy in the cell allows for it to have a pretty good chance at fixing whatever mutations crop up. It also allows for efficient gene shuffling. For bacteria, the genome is one long strand of DNA, so it can be tricky to figure out where to add or subtract DNA in the even of a horizontal transfer. But if you split up the genome into discrete units, as in chromosomes, and then you make sure to have two copies of each, all you have to do is swap chromosomes back and forth to get a pretty efficient shuffling of the genes. Just think of shuffling playing cards- each suit represents a different organism’s genome, and each card is a different chromosome. If you shuffle the cards together, there are many possible groups of cards that could result. For bacteria, it’s like the cards are taped together in a long chain- not so easy to shuffle.

And that’s essentially what sexual reproduction does, all the way from yeast to humans. A single copy of each chromosome from both parental cells is combined to make a new cell that has two copies of each chromosome, one from each parent

87 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:02:09pm

re: #78 realwest

Its not all fun and games when a football is spiraling toward your head on a frozen rope from 20 yards away over and over again.

88 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:02:09pm

bbiab

89 Colonel Panik  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #49 Danderfoot

Is anyone else struck by the coloring the artist gave this critter?

The broken lines, spots and earth tones on the body are consistent with prey mammals, to stay hidden in brush and grass. However, what, if any, purpose would the brightly colored face proto-feathers serve on such an animal?

Same thing they do in modern birds I'd guess...sexual and/or territorial display. The colors are all conjecture anyway. The artist is extrapolating from modern birds.

90 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:02:54pm

re: #85 Dublin(CA)Dude
Ah, ok then, your turn! LOL!

91 Super-ego  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:03:25pm

re: #74 realwest

Mating displays.

That kind of relates to my first question. When did male/female species evolve?

What happened before mating displays? How did they know they were male/female and could reproduce?

92 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:03:51pm

re: #49 Danderfoot

Is anyone else struck by the coloring the artist gave this critter?

The broken lines, spots and earth tones on the body are consistent with prey mammals, to stay hidden in brush and grass. However, what, if any, purpose would the brightly colored face proto-feathers serve on such an animal?

These guys need to get their stories straight lest people lose faith.
(now go *create* life in a test tube)

Color (and pattern) is known to serve as attractors for mates, look at a peacock for a good example, so the color scheme is not all that unreasonable considering we know not a thing about the ecological niche it fits.

93 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:04:03pm

re: #74 realwest

Hmmm - didja all see this in Charles Link:

A predatory lizard? No way!

Whitesnake-Here I Go Again (Lizards)


Youtube Video
94 Dublin(CA)Dude  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:04:55pm

re: #90 realwest

Ah, ok then, your turn! LOL!

Surgery 1/12, gonna lose a few unncessary organs.

95 Taqiyyotomist  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:08:25pm

I tell ya's, dinosaur research sure has been a boon to the colored pencil industry.

I would love to see how they came up with the colors.

96 Super-ego  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:08:53pm

re: #86 Neo Con since 9-11

I will stop with questions for now and read. Thanks for the link.

97 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:12:29pm

re: #95 Taqiyyotomist

I tell ya's, dinosaur research sure has been a boon to the colored pencil industry.

I would love to see how they came up with the colors.

From recently discovered negatives dating to the Polaroid Era.

98 mattm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:13:14pm

OT

Oregon Proposed require GPS receivers in cars to tax based on miles driven, but don't worry they won't use it to track you.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

99 Old_Mick  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:13:39pm

re: #96 Super-ego

I will stop with questions for now and read. Thanks for the link.

Read indeed, yet, you will find not the answer there. Persevere.

100 MacGregor  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:15:08pm

re: #82 jcm

Complicated stuff. Evolution at the genetics level. (bio-chem major, with plenty of Genetics classes). Simple answers is it's a combination of all those things.

Genetic variation / mutation is subtle. Seldom is it a visible or obvious change.

In conjunction with changing environmental pressures, some changes may be more advantageous than with out the environmental change. Local and global changes all bring pressures.

Yes, I suppose the steps were gradual enough not to alarm their folks, and I recall both variants procreated, further blurring the line. I've also heard the differences were enough that newer variants would over-run and kill their predecessors.

101 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:15:33pm

re: #98 mattm

OT

Oregon Proposed require GPS receivers in cars to tax based on miles driven, but don't worry they won't use it to track you.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

so, is the ACLU going to jump all over this?

102 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:17:38pm

re: #15 teleskiguy

Yes, Charles! Love the picture of the ghastly beautiful creature! Oh wait, it might be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, I better retract that "love" part, or face the fiery depths of Hell for all eternity! Seriously though, the conservatives need to get behind evolution, even social conservatives, 'cause it really exists, organisms do evolve to changing environments (at least outside the homo sapien species) and we could LEARN SO MUCH by accepting evolution and such elegant examples.
(...)


Oh, but wait wait. Humans are physical creatures of the real world, and as such, evolution applies to us too. The evidence is that our species is evolving rapidly. Just a couple of little examples: herding peoples now have widespread lactose tolerance among adults. East Asians generally don't.

East Asians now have a widespread adaptation to high levels of starch in the (rice-based) diet: saliva containing more enzymes that help digest starch. Others generally have less, and groups of people who until recently were hunter-gatherers, or fishermen, (say, Icelanders or Iroquois), generally have minimal levels of adaptation to high-starch diets.

Before cattle were domesticated and grain agriculture developed, neither of these variations could have had any selective advantage, so their current frequencies have to be a new development.

103 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:17:39pm

So, did Kenny finally die or did he just get written-off?

104 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:18:21pm

I'm confused about something here (ya, I know, big surprise, right?!) but seriously.
The non-flying birds link (which is from 18 September 1997) says:

Two spectacular fossilized dinosaur skeletons were recently discovered in Liaoning in northeastern China. Here we describe the two nearly complete skeletons of a small theropod that represent a species closely related to Compsognathus. Sinosauropteryx has the longest tail of any known theropod, and a three-fingered hand dominated by the first finger, which is longer and thicker than either of the bones of the forearm. The larger individual also has stomach contents, and a pair of eggs in the abdomen.

[emphasis added, realwest]
But, unless I'm misreading this, it doesn't say that they were feathered dinosaurs which couldn't fly. It says that Both specimens have interesting integumentary structures that could provide information about the origin of feathers.
Does this mean that integumentary structures are the same thing as feathers? And if not, how did they reach the conclussion that they were feathered dinosaurs which couldn't fly?
[sorry for the bolding of that last sentence, it was unintentional but I can't figure out how to unbold it!]

105 Racer X  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:19:08pm

Viva La Evolucion!

106 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:19:38pm

re: #98 mattm

OT

Oregon Proposed require GPS receivers in cars to tax based on miles driven, but don't worry they won't use it to track you.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Riiiiigggghhhhhtttt.

Unless, of course, you're a wanted multiple murderer. Or there's a paternity lawsuit afoot. Or somebody wants to know if you actually voted. Or, or, or...

Isn't this perverse, though? Don't liberals want people to adapt fuel-efficient cars? Aren't light cars easy on the roads?

107 pat  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:19:41pm

I have always found feathers interesting. Since they predate flight, much more so. Like the Nautilus shell, there seems to be a bit of elegance in the construct.

108 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:20:45pm

re: #87 Mich-again
Hey, I believe you Mich - I'm just asking why don't ya make the distance say 30 yards? Maybe then you won't get your hands all hurtin'?

109 pat  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:21:28pm

re: #102 lostlakehiker

Oh, but wait wait. Humans are physical creatures of the real world, and as such, evolution applies to us too. The evidence is that our species is evolving rapidly. Just a couple of little examples: herding peoples now have widespread lactose tolerance among adults. East Asians generally don't.

East Asians now have a widespread adaptation to high levels of starch in the (rice-based) diet: saliva containing more enzymes that help digest starch. Others generally have less, and groups of people who until recently were hunter-gatherers, or fishermen, (say, Icelanders or Iroquois), generally have minimal levels of adaptation to high-starch diets.

Before cattle were domesticated and grain agriculture developed, neither of these variations could have had any selective advantage, so their current frequencies have to be a new development.

Muslims suffer from a pathological disease. Bloodthirst.

110 avanti  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:22:05pm

Bad news, if true about one trait going away, no more redheads ?

" If predictions by the Oxford Hair Foundation come to pass, the number of natural redheads everywhere will continue to dwindle until there are none left by the year 2100.

The reason, according to scientists at the independent institute in England, which studies all sorts of hair problems, is that just 4 percent of the world's population carries the red-hair gene. The gene is recessive and therefore diluted when carriers produce children with people who have the dominant brown-hair gene.

Dr. John Gray's explanation of his foundation's findings: "The way things are going, red hair will either be extremely rare or extinct by the end of the century."

111 esch  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:22:29pm

re: #101 ggt

so, is the ACLU going to jump all over this?

We'll have to create new bumperstickers.

KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY AUTO-BODY!

112 winston06  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:22:36pm

off topic here;

just saw the "Slumdog Millionaire" movie and it is highly recommended

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:23:38pm

re: #109 pat

Muslims suffer from a pathological disease. Bloodthirst.

What is the paleological evidence for consanguinity (sp?)?

Could explain a lot --like those humorous examples of evolution on the isolated islands of Galapagos and Austraila.

114 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:23:42pm

re: #109 pat
Uh, surely you don't mean all Muslim suffer from that?

115 Dublin(CA)Dude  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:23:55pm

re: #110 avanti

Bad news, if true about one trait going away, no more redheads ?

" If predictions by the Oxford Hair Foundation come to pass, the number of natural redheads everywhere will continue to dwindle until there are none left by the year 2100.

The reason, according to scientists at the independent institute in England, which studies all sorts of hair problems, is that just 4 percent of the world's population carries the red-hair gene. The gene is recessive and therefore diluted when carriers produce children with people who have the dominant brown-hair gene.

Dr. John Gray's explanation of his foundation's findings: "The way things are going, red hair will either be extremely rare or extinct by the end of the century."

That is awful news, I love red heads. Woof!

116 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:24:05pm

re: #110 avanti

Bad news, if true about one trait going away, no more redheads ?

" If predictions by the Oxford Hair Foundation come to pass, the number of natural redheads everywhere will continue to dwindle until there are none left by the year 2100.

The reason, according to scientists at the independent institute in England, which studies all sorts of hair problems, is that just 4 percent of the world's population carries the red-hair gene. The gene is recessive and therefore diluted when carriers produce children with people who have the dominant brown-hair gene.

Dr. John Gray's explanation of his foundation's findings: "The way things are going, red hair will either be extremely rare or extinct by the end of the century."

Time to start a real Red-Headed League!

117 winston06  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:24:06pm

re: #114 realwest

my question as well

118 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:24:56pm

re: #104 realwest

To unbold < /strong > but remove the spaces

119 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:24:58pm

re: #98 mattm

OT

Oregon Proposed require GPS receivers in cars to tax based on miles driven, but don't worry they won't use it to track you.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

WA is proposing a scheme with implicit tracking. It would charge you based on routes driven and time of day, and the level of congestion. Hasn't gone anywhere yet.

120 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:25:11pm

re: #110 avanti

Bad news, if true about one trait going away, no more redheads ?

" If predictions by the Oxford Hair Foundation come to pass, the number of natural redheads everywhere will continue to dwindle until there are none left by the year 2100.

The reason, according to scientists at the independent institute in England, which studies all sorts of hair problems, is that just 4 percent of the world's population carries the red-hair gene. The gene is recessive and therefore diluted when carriers produce children with people who have the dominant brown-hair gene.

Didn't one of those institutes say the earth was going to be overpopulated and full of garbage by the year 2000?

I don't believe it. There is too much attraction for natural red heads --they will continue to attract mates and the gene will live on!
Dr. John Gray's explanation of his foundation's findings: "The way things are going, red hair will either be extremely rare or extinct by the end of the century."

121 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:26:07pm

re: #118 Neo Con since 9-11 Thanks a lot!

122 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:26:24pm

re: #119 jcm

WA is proposing a scheme with implicit tracking. It would charge you based on routes driven and time of day, and the level of congestion. Hasn't gone anywhere yet.

Just like they keep proposing a state income tax here the voters keep saying no. Let's hope they do the same for this tracking proposal.

123 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:26:58pm

re: #120 ggt

Why do I keep losing my own posts?

Anway, I don't believe it! There is too much attraction to natural red-heads. They will continue to attract mates and reproduce--the gene will live on!

124 MacGregor  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:27:09pm

re: #112 winston06
Thanks for the tip. We just saw "The Kite Runner" and it was excellent.

125 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:28:36pm

re: #104 realwest

I'm confused about something here (ya, I know, big surprise, right?!) but seriously.
The non-flying birds link (which is from 18 September 1997) says:

[emphasis added, realwest]
But, unless I'm misreading this, it doesn't say that they were feathered dinosaurs which couldn't fly. It says that Both specimens have interesting integumentary structures that could provide information about the origin of feathers.
Does this mean that integumentary structures are the same thing as feathers? And if not, how did they reach the conclussion that they were feathered dinosaurs which couldn't fly?
[sorry for the bolding of that last sentence, it was unintentional but I can't figure out how to unbold it!]

Surface features are often fossiled, even in microscopic detail. So they can determine if the structures meet the definition of feathers, or something similar but not seen anymore.

Flight requires a bunch of things. Hollow light weight bones, and strong flight muscles. They can determine the strength of muscle by the attachment points on the fossilized bone. A big strong muscle like used for flight will have a big attachment point.

126 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:28:57pm

re: #98 mattm
Didn't even go to your link but I'll bet that this was proposed by Democrats who are afraid of dwindling tax income from more fuel efficient cars.
Well that or from Democrats who are concerned about hybrids which take away from food stocks which could go to feed the poor!
Was I close on either one?!

127 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:29:13pm

re: #108 realwest

Then its too hard on the old arm to toss them back. Diminishing returns..

128 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:32:21pm

re: #126 realwest

Didn't even go to your link but I'll bet that this was proposed by Democrats who are afraid of dwindling tax income from more fuel efficient cars.
Well that or from Democrats who are concerned about hybrids which take away from food stocks which could go to feed the poor!
Was I close on either one?!

First paragraph extract from the link:

The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely with gasoline taxes.

129 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:33:03pm

re: #122 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just like they keep proposing a state income tax here the voters keep saying no. Let's hope they do the same for this tracking proposal.

Don't count on voters in King Co.

Meanwhile.


50 percent hike in gas tax proposed

A 50 percent increase in gasoline and diesel fuel taxes is being urged by the commission to finance highway construction and repair until the government devises another way for motorists to pay for using public roads.

I think all gas taxes should be post on the pump.

Gas: 1.34 a gallon.
Fed Tax: 18.4¢
WA State: 35.6¢
Taxes: 54¢
Total: 1.88 a gallon.

130 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:33:32pm

re: #125 jcm
Yes, I understand that, but how did they know - if it had (or they had) fossilized structures that meet the definition of feathers, but didn't fly?
Put it another silly way, if they had fossilized structures that could have been "feathers" and they had the big attachment point, then how do they know they couldn't or didn't fly?
Sorry to be obtuse here.

131 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:35:19pm

re: #128 FurryOldGuyJeans
AHA! Sherlock realwest stikes again. But were these latest proposals made by Democrats? (I'm asking for a reason I'll get to, depending on the answer!)?

132 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:35:33pm

re: #129 jcm

Don't count on voters in King Co.


I never do since Ron Sims is in charge.

I think all gas taxes should be post on the pump.

Gas: 1.34 a gallon.
Fed Tax: 18.4¢
WA State: 35.6¢
Taxes: 54¢
Total: 1.88 a gallon.

They should make it mandatory that the state tax portion is bolded and in a larger font so as to show just how much the politicians are into our pockets.

133 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:36:16pm

re: #130 realwest

Yes, I understand that, but how did they know - if it had (or they had) fossilized structures that meet the definition of feathers, but didn't fly?
Put it another silly way, if they had fossilized structures that could have been "feathers" and they had the big attachment point, then how do they know they couldn't or didn't fly?
Sorry to be obtuse here.

No, good questions.
Those are two of many factors. Do the joints when articulated move in a way that would allow flight. Are the wings big enough of the creature. Is the creature aerodynamic enough to fly, etc...

They get into amazing detail, and scientific food fights, written in journal articles and papers over these details.

134 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:37:21pm

re: #131 realwest

AHA! Sherlock realwest stikes again. But were these latest proposals made by Democrats? (I'm asking for a reason I'll get to, depending on the answer!)?

It is the old "Play the Party" game since the linked FNC article has nary a D or R in evidence.

135 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:38:12pm

re: #132 FurryOldGuyJeans

They should make it mandatory that the state tax portion is bolded and in a larger font so as to show just how much the politicians are into our pockets.

WA is really good at hiding a lot of it's taxes in licensing, user fees, and other administrative charges. The actual tax rate is over double what we see in sales, gas and other obvious taxes.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:38:13pm

re: #77 ggt

I always knew I liked Karl for a reason . . .

Oh dang--when I saw that, I thought Lagerfeld was supporting ISRAEL, which would give me an excuse to buy a bottle of Coco.

My late grandmother would kick my ass from the great beyond if I bought fur.

This is not helping!

137 winston06  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:39:14pm

re: #124 MacGregor

well the "Slumdog Milionaire" is excellent. Watch it on big screen before it is late.

138 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:39:36pm

re: #135 jcm

WA is really good at hiding a lot of it's taxes in licensing, user fees, and other administrative charges. The actual tax rate is over double what we see in sales, gas and other obvious taxes.

People would revolt if they knew just how exorbitant the taxes really are. But the politicians are nothing if not sneaky here.

139 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:40:11pm

Safari keeps freezing on me.

did anyone answer my question about Kenny?

140 Outrider  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:41:00pm

re: #4 ggt

I always thought the duck-billed platypus was an example of G-d using evolution for humor.

almost all them critters down therein Australia could qualify for that category. I mean, c'mon, a kangaroo? ;-)>

141 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:41:09pm

re: #139 ggt

Safari keeps freezing on me.

did anyone answer my question about Kenny?

Wasn't he killed, the bastards? ;)

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:42:58pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh dang--when I saw that, I thought Lagerfeld was supporting ISRAEL, which would give me an excuse to buy a bottle of Coco.

My late grandmother would kick my ass from the great beyond if I bought fur.

This is not helping!

Well, I thought his point was correct (about a meat-eating, leather wearing society saying that wearing fur was wrong is a big ridculous). I can't make a decent sentence this late at night, forgive me.

143 Outrider  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:43:06pm

re: #119 jcm

WA is proposing a scheme with implicit tracking. It would charge you based on routes driven and time of day, and the level of congestion. Hasn't gone anywhere yet.

Interesting. Th government tries everything to get folks to drive less. They comply over time with the result the government loses tax money, so now they need to penalize people for driving less and for buying more fuel efficient cars. ;-(>

144 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:43:19pm

re: #132 FurryOldGuyJeans
Uh, you listed Fed Taxes, Wa.State taxes and Taxes seperately - what are those other "taxes"? Since it adds up to the total Fed and State taxes, I'd guess it's just a summary of all taxes, but shouldn't or wouldn't it be more effective from an anti-tax pov, to just list Fed and State Taxes? Or just taxes, without regard to Fed or state?
I like the idea of
Gas: $1.34 a gallon.
Taxes $0 .54 a gallon
total $1.88 a gallon I think that would let the average driver know that 30% of the price of a gallon of gas is for taxes. Period.

145 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:44:23pm

re: #144 realwest

Uh, you listed Fed Taxes, Wa.State taxes and Taxes seperately - what are those other "taxes"? Since it adds up to the total Fed and State taxes, I'd guess it's just a summary of all taxes, but shouldn't or wouldn't it be more effective from an anti-tax pov, to just list Fed and State Taxes? Or just taxes, without regard to Fed or state?
I like the idea of
Gas: $1.34 a gallon.
Taxes $0 .54 a gallon
total $1.88 a gallon I think that would let the average driver know that 30% of the price of a gallon of gas is for taxes. Period.

That wasn't me doing the original listing, that was JCM. Kvetch at him about the breakdown. ;)

146 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:44:59pm

re: #133 jcm
" scientific food fights" LOL! But since this was written over 11 years ago, I wonder if they've found new evidence or if the analysis of the evidence has changed any?

147 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:45:17pm

Dang, I thought that critter at the top of the page was SuperChicken.

148 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:45:18pm

re: #143 Outrider

Interesting. Th government tries everything to get folks to drive less. They comply over time with the result the government loses tax money, so now they need to penalize people for driving less and for buying more fuel efficient cars. ;-(>

Same thing is happening now that smoking is becoming less and less common; the politicians are whining their money is drying up since less tobacco is being sold.

149 Outrider  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:45:47pm

re: #144 realwest

Uh, you listed Fed Taxes, Wa.State taxes and Taxes seperately - what are those other "taxes"? Since it adds up to the total Fed and State taxes, I'd guess it's just a summary of all taxes, but shouldn't or wouldn't it be more effective from an anti-tax pov, to just list Fed and State Taxes? Or just taxes, without regard to Fed or state?
I like the idea of
Gas: $1.34 a gallon.
Taxes $0 .54 a gallon
total $1.88 a gallon I think that would let the average driver know that 30% of the price of a gallon of gas is for taxes. Period.

city. county. Our 7% sales tax has 4% to state with the remainder split between county and city. Then there are property taxes.

150 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:46:24pm

re: #142 ggt

Well, I thought his point was correct (about a meat-eating, leather wearing society saying that wearing fur was wrong is a big ridculous). I can't make a decent sentence this late at night, forgive me.

Since when has it been a requirement that Liberals make sense? ;)

151 Rustler  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:47:18pm

re: #123 ggt Problem is red hair is a result of 2 or 3 seperate recessive genes thru multiple chromosomes.

152 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:47:43pm

re: #129 jcm

Well, look at the prevailing wage rates for King Co. Highway improvements are public works, so they fall under prevailing wages. Cement mason prevailing wage for King County, Washington is $46.81hr.

Just thinking that an awful lot of roads are concrete, so used cement mason for the example. The thing is, prevailing wages are usually set by collective bargaining agreements within that state. So, if a construction company has to pay those kinds of rates to do the project, it's going to cost a bunch. If the states would go with a more conventional kind of bidding system, it wouldn't cost as much...

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:48:04pm

re: #147 rawmuse

Dang, I thought that critter at the top of the page was SuperChicken.

It definately has style. The little choppers and weird coloring are just awesome.

154 Outrider  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:48:08pm

re: #148 FurryOldGuyJeans

Same thing is happening now that smoking is becoming less and less common; the politicians are whining their money is drying up since less tobacco is being sold.

I saw that the other day. Screw em. I wrote letters back then this would be the result at which time the government would merely have to shift taxes for everyone to pay to make up for the shortfalls.

That's what the bastards get for tossing me under the bus so they could think they were getting off easily.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:48:11pm

re: #151 Rustler

Problem is red hair is a result of 2 or 3 seperate recessive genes thru multiple chromosomes.

Why is something that is genetically rare a problem? ;)

156 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:49:35pm

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

It definately has style. The little choppers and weird coloring are just awesome.

You and I have seen similar on Polk street, many times over.

157 Rustler  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:50:04pm

re: #139 ggt
From South park he died and subsequentially possessed cartman for a time then finally properly ascended.

158 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:50:08pm

re: #144 realwest

Uh, you listed Fed Taxes, Wa.State taxes and Taxes seperately - what are those other "taxes"? Since it adds up to the total Fed and State taxes, I'd guess it's just a summary of all taxes, but shouldn't or wouldn't it be more effective from an anti-tax pov, to just list Fed and State Taxes? Or just taxes, without regard to Fed or state?
I like the idea of
Gas: $1.34 a gallon.
Taxes $0 .54 a gallon
total $1.88 a gallon I think that would let the average driver know that 30% of the price of a gallon of gas is for taxes. Period.

I broke out state and federal separately.
States vary widely.
Federal is 18.4¢

159 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:50:43pm

re: #152 Sarge1984

Well, look at the prevailing wage rates for King Co. Highway improvements are public works, so they fall under prevailing wages. Cement mason prevailing wage for King County, Washington is $46.81hr.

Just thinking that an awful lot of roads are concrete, so used cement mason for the example. The thing is, prevailing wages are usually set by collective bargaining agreements within that state. So, if a construction company has to pay those kinds of rates to do the project, it's going to cost a bunch. If the states would go with a more conventional kind of bidding system, it wouldn't cost as much...

That is just a part of why taxes have risen so high and yet little actual maintenance is being done. Another part is a large chunk of the road tax monies are going to pie-in-the-sky green projects like light rail.

160 Outrider  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:50:56pm

re: #156 rawmuse

You and I have seen similar on Polk street, many times over.

I'm betting he would BBQ up pretty well once you actually got him on the ground and cleaned.

161 Summer Seale  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:51:19pm

re: #49 Danderfoot


These guys need to get their stories straight lest people lose faith.
(now go *create* life in a test tube)

Evolution does not deal with the initial beginning of life.

If you don't understand that, then you have no place commenting on Evolution at all. Sorry. =)

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:51:31pm

re: #156 rawmuse

You and I have seen similar on Polk street, many times over.

;)

163 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:51:42pm

re: #150 FurryOldGuyJeans

Since when has it been a requirement that Liberals make sense? ;)

My husband and I both have brown hair and brown eyes. We have a blond haired blue eyed child. As both of us have blond haired/blue eyed family members, obviously we carry the recessive genes.

anything is possible. I think that nature is basically capitalistic. If there is a demand for it, it will survive.

164 Rustler  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:53:14pm

re: #155 FurryOldGuyJeans
Recessive genes require both parents to pass the gene on to manifest itself hence redheads are going extinct. One of the red head genes is not quite recessive its additive tho which is waht causes auburn hair and redish highlights in Brunettes.

165 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:53:20pm

Here's an interesting lnk on why Cro-Magnons prevailed while Neanderthals failed:

Presenting: Cro-Magnon v. Neanderthal in the Battle of Extinction
Competition, not climate change, led to Neanderthal wipe-out
[Link: www.popsci.com...]

Back in pre-historic times, say, 130,000-30,000 years ago, Europe was dominated not by quaint cafes and dainty bakeries, but by a group of not-quite humans called Neanderthals. In the form of a common insult, their legacy lives on today, and perhaps more accurately than we think: new research suggests that the Neanderthal's extinction was not due to climate change (as was previously argued) but rather to their inability to beat the competition, which came in the form of Cro-Magnon—the first anatomically modern human population.

According to research performed by Dr William E. Banks and a team from the French Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, l'Ecole Pratique d'Hautes Etudes, and the University of Kansas, and published in the journal PLoS ONE this month, an analysis of the distribution of archaeological sites shows modern humans moving in on Neanderthal territory and the consequent shrinking of Neanderthal-dominated zones across Europe around 40,000 years ago.

RTWT

166 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:53:24pm

re: #152 Sarge1984

Well, look at the prevailing wage rates for King Co. Highway improvements are public works, so they fall under prevailing wages. Cement mason prevailing wage for King County, Washington is $46.81hr.

Just thinking that an awful lot of roads are concrete, so used cement mason for the example. The thing is, prevailing wages are usually set by collective bargaining agreements within that state. So, if a construction company has to pay those kinds of rates to do the project, it's going to cost a bunch. If the states would go with a more conventional kind of bidding system, it wouldn't cost as much...


About ten years ago down in Dupont, Intel arranged to build the freeway interchange for their new facility. The state wanted to levy them and enormous amount for the amount of traffic they would be bringing. Some how they got to do it themselves. The project cost one third the money and time as the state proposal.

167 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:53:55pm

I can't stand it anymore. I have to open a new tab everytime I want to post a comment because it freezes.

I'm off.

weet dreams all!

168 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:54:01pm

re: #163 ggt

My husband and I both have brown hair and brown eyes. We have a blond haired blue eyed child. As both of us have blond haired/blue eyed family members, obviously we carry the recessive genes.

anything is possible. I think that nature is basically capitalistic. If there is a demand for it, it will survive.

All that has to happen for some trait to survive is to have it passed on genetically to offspring.

169 Rustler  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:54:05pm

re: #164 Rustler
Its only a problem of manifestation of red hair amongts the population.

170 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:56:15pm

re: #159 FurryOldGuyJeans

And those pie-in-the-sky projects are prevailing wage as well. I started scrolling through the prevailing wages some more after posting, and am just amazed. An asphalt raker makes $38.77 an hour. It seems abusive to me.

171 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:56:41pm

re: #138 FurryOldGuyJeans

People would revolt if they knew just how exorbitant the taxes really are. But the politicians are nothing if not sneaky here.

A guy a the UW did a study earlier this last year.

UW study: Rules add $200,000 to Seattle house price

Considering median home price at the time was $350,000. That's on top of the property taxes and effective tax rate on homes of 133%.

172 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:57:07pm

re: #165 Salamantis

The skeleton in the pic looks more like cro-magnon than neanderthal, which had shorter and sloping foreheads. Maybe just a wrong caption.

173 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:57:41pm

re: #166 jcm

Funny how that works...

174 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:59:42pm

re: #172 rawmuse

The skeleton in the pic looks more like cro-magnon than neanderthal, which had shorter and sloping foreheads. Maybe just a wrong caption.

I'd have to agree. The jaw and the brow ridges aren't prominent enough for Neanderthal, either.

175 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 10:59:52pm

re: #173 Sarge1984

Funny how that works...

The Gov. won't do nothing, she's bought and paid for by the unions.

176 jcm  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:00:27pm

Night all....

See you tomorrow, God willing and the creek don't rise.

177 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:00:59pm

re: #170 Sarge1984

And those pie-in-the-sky projects are prevailing wage as well. I started scrolling through the prevailing wages some more after posting, and am just amazed. An asphalt raker makes $38.77 an hour. It seems abusive to me.

It's only abusive if you aren't the one making that wage and doing that work and backed up by the union. Rice bowl protection is strong in WA state, that's for sure.

178 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:01:05pm

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans
Yep, just as I suspected: Democrats.
I asked that because it's been my observation over the years that the real bastions of Democrats have been urban core centers (NYC, SF, LA, Portland etc) where mass transit is largely abundant, whereas most Republicans come from the "flyover states" where the use of an automobile or pick-up truck is damn near a requriement for getting from here to there and back again.
And, indeed, Congress had set aside some $17 Billion to dole out to the Big Three to make more fuel efficient automobiles. Course now that money is being used or proposed to be used to help bail out an auto industry which should have foreseen the need for more fuel efficient automobiles a LONG DAMN time ago themselves.
Wonder how those urban folks think that the food gets to the supermarket, the drugs to the pharmacy, the clothes and other items to the Department store, if not for gasoline or diesel fuel?
Just a year before I left NYC, Mayor Bloomberg put a ban on smoking cigarettes in BARS. He also was instrumental in adding close to 3 bucks a pack to the cost of a pack of cig's (course, Mayor Mike if a former smoker himself). His reasoning with the bars was that the City's healthcare system (which is VERY extensive) wouldn't have so many patients suffering the various illnesses that second hand smoke generates and his reasoning with the $3 a pack city tax on cig's would keep primary smokers away from cigarettes. So when Mayor Mike was asked by an intrepid reporter, what will the City do if smokers stop smoking, altoghther - for revenue. His - non-humorous answer was "Fat people".
Why don't the fucking Dems just stand up and say we need X trillion dollars so we're raising the income tax. Period. Why all the bullshit and misdriection like this gas vs. mileage tax?

179 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:03:12pm

re: #171 jcm

A guy a the UW did a study earlier this last year.

UW study: Rules add $200,000 to Seattle house price

Considering median home price at the time was $350,000. That's on top of the property taxes and effective tax rate on homes of 133%.

That doesn't surprise me one bit. Ron Sims loves the money he can extort so easily.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:03:16pm

re: #168 FurryOldGuyJeans

All that has to happen for some trait to survive is to have it passed on genetically to offspring.

That's why I'm not so sure about the red-heads (I've also heard it about blondes) disappearing on us. Granted, I suppose, more people with the genes can marry into populations without than would have once been true, and fair hair is pretty distinct to a few groups globally, but people don't marry that far away from home anyway, and once the genes are in the pool, they'll go ahead and recombine away as time goes by.

I had a kid in my class once, African-American, fairly dark-skinned, with the bluest eyes you have ever seen. (Pretty, but so unexpected as to be spooky.) Recessive genes just swim down the gene pool till they find another blue-eyed tapole to connect with.

181 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:03:43pm

re: #178 realwest

I have often said that if Democrats feel that cigarettes are so bad, they should just ban them. Lord knows, they ban plenty of other things.
But, the cigarettes are a crucial revenue stream.

182 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:04:44pm

re: #152 Sarge1984
Two quick questions for ya: A. are the Cement Masons unionized and B. does that $46.81hr include benefits or just cash money for labor?

183 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:05:53pm

re: #178 realwest

People would revolt if they raised income taxes across the board; it is so much easier to swallow getting ripped off if it is someone else and is "for a good cause" the non-tax-paying citizen will get to use, such as healthcare.

184 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:06:04pm

re: #143 Outrider
Precisely correct. Unbelievable but correct.

185 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:07:09pm

re: #84 avanti

I agree that a artists conception like that from a few fossilized bones is over the top if not deceptive. Fun to look at but just a blind guess. As to creating life in a test tube, give me a few 100 million years, heat, water and organic chemicals and I'd have a shot. The earth had all of that, maybe God gave it a kick start, but who knows.
We could all be here because some ancient alien left part of his sandwich on a rock or microbes from who knows where came in on a comet.

Actually, the Archaeopteryx fossils from the Solenhofen limestone in Germany are very well preserved indeed, with impressions of feathers very evident. I don't know if the colors represented in the image are accurate, but they are far from unusual in living birds.

I'd say this artist's impression may not necessarily depict the animal exactly as it looked when living, but it is a fine example of how it might have looked. In other words, nothing about the drawing is inconsistent with the known traits of the animal. That's about as good as it's going to get, barring the invention of a time machine.

186 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:08:46pm

re: #181 rawmuse

I have often said that if Democrats feel that cigarettes are so bad, they should just ban them. Lord knows, they ban plenty of other things.
But, the cigarettes are a crucial revenue stream.

The politicians don't want to lose the monies they get from taxing things. But don't think the ultimate objective is not to have total control over things, the incremental method is what works.

Besides, look at the hassles prohibiting alcohol nation-wide created.

187 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:09:12pm

re: #167 ggt
Weet dreams ggt!

188 Racer X  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:10:45pm

re: #178 realwest

Why don't the fucking Dems just stand up and say we need X trillion dollars so we're raising the income tax. Period. Why all the bullshit and misdriection like this gas vs. mileage tax?


Because politicians think we are stupid.

189 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:12:13pm

re: #186 FurryOldGuyJeans

I actually have done quite a bit of reading on the topic of the Prohibition era. It is a good laboratory for many aspects of social study including the Law of Unintended Consequences.

190 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:12:50pm

re: #188 Racer X

Because politicians think we are stupid.

In the aggregate I do believe the politicians are not all that far off, considering how the public at large continually votes.

191 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:13:31pm

re: #176 jcm
Good night jcm and thanks again for answering my stupid questions!

192 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:14:01pm

re: #182 realwest

A: Doesn't matter--union or non-union, prevailing wage must be paid; prevailing wage is typically set by the government by adopting the wages set in the local collective bargaining agreement. Union wages.

B: That's the wage, what the worker gets in the paycheck as the hourly rate. Fringes are an additional amount depending on trade.

And your parents told you not to be a ditch digger, right? In King County, Washington, that's $38.06 an hour.

193 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:14:21pm

re: #189 rawmuse

I actually have done quite a bit of reading on the topic of the Prohibition era. It is a good laboratory for many aspects of social study including the Law of Unintended Consequences.

It is one of the best examples of how bad government doing something the public thinks is good can actually be. The less the government does is best.

194 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:15:59pm

re: #192 Sarge1984

More and more I am led to think that government and unions are yet another trust and monopoly that should be busted up, big time.

195 bosforus  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:17:13pm

I spent the last few days at a carpeted cabin. The only bugs to be found were the ones whose pattern on their backs were near identical to the carpet. Evolution in a nutshell.

196 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:18:21pm

That is definitely a male of the species pictured above. Has to be.

197 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:18:23pm

re: #130 realwest

Yes, I understand that, but how did they know - if it had (or they had) fossilized structures that meet the definition of feathers, but didn't fly?
Put it another silly way, if they had fossilized structures that could have been "feathers" and they had the big attachment point, then how do they know they couldn't or didn't fly?
Sorry to be obtuse here.

Feathers aren't required for flight. Bats don't have them, and pterodactyls apparently didn't.

If you found a fossilized ostrich, you probably would not be tempted to conclude it could fly; it's body mass is way too large for the size of its piddly little wings. The same reasoning applies when looking at fossils of more ancient creatures. Do the proportions of the body, and the evidence for muscles, etc. suggest that it might be adapted for flight?

198 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:20:01pm

re: #181 rawmuse
I agree - BUT - and it's a big but (no pun intended) if one were to look at it logically, consumption of alcohol creates more expensive and more long lasting diseases for the health sytem to deal with. And the LAST time we tried to prohibit drinking........well,y'all know what happened - speakeasys, tens of millions of Americans suddenly becoming criminalized, Joe Kennedy making his "Start Up fortune" and all that jazz.
So they won't ban cigs', cause then the pressure to ban alcohol would obviously rise to a fever pitch - at least based on what each costs the health care system!
We will have been properly hoisted on our own petards.

199 Outrider  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:21:02pm

re: #192 Sarge1984

A: Doesn't matter--union or non-union, prevailing wage must be paid; prevailing wage is typically set by the government by adopting the wages set in the local collective bargaining agreement. Union wages.

B: That's the wage, what the worker gets in the paycheck as the hourly rate. Fringes are an additional amount depending on trade.

And your parents told you not to be a ditch digger, right? In King County, Washington, that's $38.06 an hour.

And to think I did it in the Army for 3K a year. ;-)>

200 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:21:27pm

re: #198 realwest

I agree - BUT - and it's a big but (no pun intended) if one were to look at it logically, consumption of alcohol creates more expensive and more long lasting diseases for the health sytem to deal with. And the LAST time we tried to prohibit drinking........well,y'all know what happened - speakeasys, tens of millions of Americans suddenly becoming criminalized, Joe Kennedy making his "Start Up fortune" and all that jazz.
So they won't ban cigs', cause then the pressure to ban alcohol would obviously rise to a fever pitch - at least based on what each costs the health care system!
We will have been properly hoisted on our own petards.

If they want to ban tobacco they would also need to ban marijuana, which would then lead into a ban on all intoxicating substances.... ;)

201 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:21:37pm

Is there a problem that is solved by only having footballs or is it just my computer seeing it this way tonight?

202 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:22:01pm

re: #188 Racer X
"Because politicians think we are stupid."
There, fixed that for you!

203 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:22:16pm

NEVER MIND!
(Something to do with being logged in I guess.)

204 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:23:14pm

AND HOW COME NO POLITICIAN SPEAKS AND REALLY MEANS CUTTING THE COST OF GOVERNMENT AND USING THAT "SAVED" MONEY TO PAY FOR SOME OF THE SHIT THEY WANT US TO SWALLOW.
Gaaaa!

205 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:23:54pm

re: #194 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think some unions definitely are called for and needed, but others are abusive. For example, from what I saw while living in California, the UFW (United Farm Workers) is a good thing--a lot of migrant farm workers toiling in the fields to harvest produce for low wages and in pretty bad conditions.

On the other hand, professional athletes? Please.

Overall, I believe unions are important, and have served a great purpose for labor in this country. But many have outlived their usefulness and have become truly abusive. When there are automotive assembly line workers laid off and being paid close to (if not their full) wage and benefits package...and we are being asked to bail out their employers (who are paying their wages and benefits while they're riding the bench)...

I'm sorry, but that seems abusive to me.

206 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:24:05pm

re: #203 mean Gene
Yeah, or sometimes just refreshing the page will take care of it too.

207 Cygnus  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:24:36pm

re: #53 USBeast

Pretty bird...pretty bird...please don't eat me!

It looks just like my friend's eclectus did just before it bit me and drew blood. Ouch.

208 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:25:12pm

When redheads disappear will auburn-headedness also go the way of the dinosaur?
Because, before going gray I was an auburn wavy-haired, freckle-faced, blue-eyed 5'2'' woman whose hair now just looks wavy and golden-white.

209 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:25:19pm

re: #200 FurryOldGuyJeans
Funny, I thought we already banned all of those other intoxicating substances!

210 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:26:16pm

re: #199 Outrider

Yup.

And you were probably more productive, too.

211 Racer X  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:26:21pm

re: #204 realwest

I hear ya bro.

To a politician the answer is always "increase taxes". It is never "spend less".

212 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:27:19pm

re: #205 Sarge1984
Well Sarge1984, you know what the late, great comedian George Carlin said: "The primary if not SOLE focus of a Union Executive is to ensure that he never becomes a memeber of the Working Class."

213 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:27:36pm

re: #209 realwest

Funny, I thought we already banned all of those other intoxicating substances!

States are decriminalizing some substances.

And yes they may have been made illegal just like alcohol was during Prohibition with amazingly similar results.

214 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:29:37pm

re: #205 Sarge1984

Anything created for good, such as unions, can be perverted for a greater evil.

215 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:29:43pm

re: #212 realwest

I have nothing but contempt for union BA's (Business Agents, for those not familiar) and organizers.

216 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:29:56pm

Well, I confess there are things that I want to ban. Among them are the boom cars. You know the ones I mean, with the 30-50hz spectrum pumped up with a 1000 watts sub woofer that shakes your back fillings loose. I seriously consider that an invasion of my sonic space.

217 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:31:14pm

re: #213 FurryOldGuyJeans
I swear it really is true: Politicians are stupid. A lot of them may be well educated and are not ignorant, but by the time they got elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, much less the U.S. Senate, all they want to do is to hang on to their jobs and they see their jobs NOT as doing whats best for the country, but as WHAT IS doing the best to help them get re-elected. Period.

218 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:33:21pm

re: #217 realwest

I swear it really is true: Politicians are stupid. A lot of them may be well educated and are not ignorant, but by the time they got elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, much less the U.S. Senate, all they want to do is to hang on to their jobs and they see their jobs NOT as doing whats best for the country, but as WHAT IS doing the best to help them get re-elected. Period.

Politicians are just a reflection of the electorate at large, so in the collective we the American people are stupid since we keep electing such venal people to positions of prominence.

219 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:34:41pm

Geez Y'all - it's really late here and I gotta go to bed!
Damn, and just when we were thisclose to solving all of the problems in the USA, too. Ah, well.
LOL!
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I do get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

220 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:35:14pm

re: #214 FurryOldGuyJeans

But don't get me wrong--I'm not anti-union. They truly do have a purpose. I'm anti-abusive-employer more than anything. But I count unions as employers, too. Just as employers can be abusive of the employee, unions can be abusive of the employer. Granted, the work won't get done without the labor force, but the job won't exist without the employer.

221 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:35:15pm

re: #216 rawmuse

Well, I confess there are things that I want to ban. Among them are the boom cars. You know the ones I mean, with the 30-50hz spectrum pumped up with a 1000 watts sub woofer that shakes your back fillings loose. I seriously consider that an invasion of my sonic space.

Not to mention the "music" produced for that market. Seems that drums and percussion have been replaced by some geek with a knife switch, throwing 100 amps of juice into the voice coil of a speaker. All you get is a pulse. No tonality to it at all.

Listen to a lot of modern music, on even a very good stereo, and the bass is nothing but thud, thud, thud.

222 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:35:42pm

re: #216 rawmuse

Well, I confess there are things that I want to ban. Among them are the boom cars. You know the ones I mean, with the 30-50hz spectrum pumped up with a 1000 watts sub woofer that shakes your back fillings loose. I seriously consider that an invasion of my sonic space.

I wrote a poem about that once:

Playa Santa

I was suddenly aroused
From a late Christmas Eve-ning slumber
By the throbbing approach
Of bass notes pounding my ears.
Hastening from my bed to my window
To ascertain the source of this pulsation,
I beheld a most surreal and eerie sight.

The heavens were ebon with nocturnal rain
Gently deliquescing down from the sky
There was no breezy whisper whatsoever,
And no light leaked
Through the damp cloud blanket
From the hidden quarter-moon.
The night seemed somehow frozen in place
As if it were sitting, waiting in anticipation,
And holding its hesitant breath.

Then, in the road beyond my yard,
A long, low, wide, late-model car cruised slowly by.
Its undercarriage was aglow with the blacklight shimmer
Of violet neon tubes which flashed in synchrony
With a growling primal beat,
Causing purple sparkles to rhythmically glint,
In intermittent fragments and shattered shards,
From the surfaces of the rain-soaked leaves
Which hung heavily from my bushes and trees.
It resembled a fluorescent denizen of deep-sea currents
Slowly floating before me on that dark wet street.

As the auto glided by beneath my streetlight,
Proceeding through its glare from shadow to shadow,
It briefly glimmered a dim and glittery green.
Its chrome mag wheel rims reflectively gleamed,
But its windows had been opaqued with filmic shading
So I could not peer inside
To discern whether golden foreteeth and chains
Shined within the car’s obscured interior.

I began absently musing upon what possible mission
Could prompt this playa Santa
To embark on his mysterious journey
In the dead of a Christmas Eve night…
Could he perhaps be bringing brightly wrapped gifts
To the ghetto homes of sleeping children?
Or, more likely, is he delivering
Merchandise rather than presents?
A craved bag of goodies, perhaps,
To some favored customer
Trapped like a frantic deer
In the headlights of holiday need...

223 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:35:59pm

Johnny Mathis is on Leno.

224 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:36:15pm

re: #219 realwest

Weet dreams, RW. See you down the road!

225 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:38:17pm

re: #222 Salamantis

You is one poetic son of a gun.
BTW, if Mathis sings something with a hip hop thud beat, I will consider it to be a sign of the Last Days.

226 realwest  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:39:03pm

re: #218 FurryOldGuyJeans
Hadda come back for that one! NO, we keep electing such venal people to positions of prominence because "WE" (as in "We The People") are never given any choices that aren't venal. And even though I am painting with a tad of a broad brush here (but only a tad) my first example is Caroline Kennedy. She may very well be one of 100 US Senators who will "help" decide our nation's future and she's even MORE unqualified to do that than is President-Elect Obama.
Now good night, for real!

227 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:40:39pm

Uncle!

Have a great night, Lizards.

228 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:41:07pm

re: #225 rawmuse

You is one poetic son of a gun.
BTW, if Mathis sings something with a hip hop thud beat, I will consider it to be a sign of the Last Days.

I'll post one more, and then I'll quit.

Some of you know that I weathered the monstrous Hurricane Ivan in my Pensacola, Florida home, sustaining a direct hit. This is the poem I wrote about the experience:

Walking in Hurricanes

The wild power energy calls me
And its siren song will simply not be denied.
So, fool that I am, and slave to the electric thrill of experience
I doff a raincoat and dare to venture out into it.

The sky is solid gray and filled
With a wide variety of sailing debris.
The raindrops bury themselves like pellets shot into my face
And the gusts blast with such furious force
That I am at first battered staggering backwards
Before re-stabilizing my balance and pushing ahead
With their ferocious roaring filling my ringing ears.

I quickly realize that it would be even
More unwise for me to walk very far in such a fierce barrage
Than it was for me to brave this mad chaos in the first place
But still I wedge my crazy head-down way through the maelstrom
As far as the road, and the lamppost there.
Clinging to it as to an anchor, I am struck
By the temptation of an insanely dangerous
Yet somehow irresistible whim.

I grip the post as tightly as I can, relax my body
And let my limp legs blow from beneath me.
I am now horizontal: a human pennant
Being buffeted and blown about.
I hang there for a few hazardous seconds
Swinging and swaying in the hellish gale
Then strain to pull myself back to the safety of the pole
And, regaining tentative footing,
Make my precarious way back within my home.

I set up watch at my small and sole un-boarded window
And await the spectacle of the tempest’s full fury.
It is not long in arriving.
My house begins to shudder
And I hear my shingles ripping away overhead.
The cacophony of the wind becomes deafening:
A tsunami of angry air.
I am shocked to see my neighbor’s roof peel off
And terrified by the sound of my own joists groaning.
My lamppost is now bent flat upon the ground
Even before the front yard oak crashes down upon it.
Then an automobile surreally tumbles end-over-end down my road.

Suddenly, all falls quiet and calm
And the sun quite amazingly shines brightly down.
It dawns on me that the eye is passing over
So I once again proceed outside.

Pieces of houses and trees abound.
Destruction is huddled in tangled piles
And detritus is spread upon the ground.
The trees I have left standing are twisted things.
Their branches are denuded and snapped
And their trunks lean freakishly askew.
My car, sheltered inside my garage
Is the only undamaged vehicle I see.
Many of my shingles are torn or gone,
But my home has weathered the rampage well
When compared to the houses of my absent neighbors.
They were wise to leave
I was stupid to remain
And most lucky to still be alive.

Gradually, a rising din begins to sound
Intruding upon my shocked contemplations.
I glance up and see, approaching with fierce intensity
Another slate gray wall, impossibly high
Huge things moving sideways within it
And hurry back inside my dim home.
I will not leave it again until the storm fully passes.
If this hurricane wants me
It will have to come inside and get me.

229 BignJames  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:41:44pm

re: #207 Cygnus

Your friend's what?

230 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:42:42pm

re: #228 Salamantis

You are poetic! Crazy, but poetic! LOL!

231 SWPaul  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:43:58pm

Comics Unleashed is still on air...somehow. And that's it from me, I'm helping a friend move tomorrow and need sleep!

232 stevieray  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:45:07pm

re: #216 rawmuse

Well, I confess there are things that I want to ban. Among them are the boom cars. You know the ones I mean, with the 30-50hz spectrum pumped up with a 1000 watts sub woofer that shakes your back fillings loose. I seriously consider that an invasion of my sonic space.

A gift for you!

Youtube Video
233 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:48:03pm

re: #232 stevieray

You almost got a down ding out of me for that one...
Give me the same girls dancing to Verdi and you got something. ;)

234 BignJames  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:50:13pm

re: #232 stevieray

Can't believe I watched that.

235 stevieray  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:50:29pm

*sh!t-eatin' grin*

:D

236 Fearless Fred  Fri, Jan 2, 2009 11:58:02pm

re: #234 BignJames

Been feeling sorry for myself today 'cause my sound card's busted.
Maybe I wouldn't have read Sala's poem otherwise though.

237 stevieray  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:03:53am

Yikes!

My video killed the thread!

238 Salem  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:05:23am

That is a wicked illustration, BTW.

239 BignJames  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:05:29am

re: #236 Fearless Fred

You didn't miss much.

240 rawmuse  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:05:58am

re: #237 stevieray

Yikes!

My video killed the thread!

More like euthanized it!

241 Outrider  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:08:59am

Anyone else been having minor problems getting new comments or long spinning discs of death today?

242 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:09:19am

re: #15 teleskiguy

Yes, Charles! Love the picture of the ghastly beautiful creature! Oh wait, it might be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, I better retract that "love" part, or face the fiery depths of Hell for all eternity! Seriously though, the conservatives need to get behind evolution, even social conservatives, 'cause it really exists, organisms do evolve to changing environments (at least outside the homo sapien species) and we could LEARN SO MUCH by accepting evolution and such elegant examples.

Sala -- there's nothing in conservative philosophy about rejecting good science. Quit trying to disparage us with your downding.

243 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:09:51am

re: #239 BignJames

Hah haha, okay ... good.

244 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:11:02am

re: #242 Fearless Fred

Sala -- there's nothing in conservative philosophy about rejecting good science. Quit trying to disparage us with your downding.

You are mistaken; I updinged teleskiguy's comment #15.

245 Outrider  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:11:29am

re: #242 Fearless Fred

Sala -- there's nothing in conservative philosophy about rejecting good science. Quit trying to disparage us with your downding.

we got a lurking downdinger at work?

246 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:12:17am

The wild power energy calls me
And its siren song will simply not be denied.
So, fool that I am, and slave to the electric thrill of experience
I doff a raincoat and dare to venture out into it.

Sala -- That's just how most conservatives feel about evolution.

247 stevieray  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:12:20am

re: #241 Outrider

Anyone else been having minor problems getting new comments or long spinning discs of death today?

Not I... but someone earlier was complaining that LGF wasn't playing nice with her Safari browser today... can't remember who it was right now.

248 Outrider  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:13:34am

re: #247 stevieray

Not I... but someone earlier was complaining that LGF wasn't playing nice with her Safari browser today... can't remember who it was right now.

that fits. I'm using Safari at the moment.

249 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:14:03am

re: #246 Fearless Fred

The wild power energy calls me
And its siren song will simply not be denied.
So, fool that I am, and slave to the electric thrill of experience
I doff a raincoat and dare to venture out into it.

Sala -- That's just how most conservatives feel about evolution.

Evolution isn't conservative or liberal; it isn't political at all.
It's empirical science.

250 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:14:57am

re: #244 Salamantis

You are mistaken; I updinged teleskiguy's comment #15.

Yes, I'm sorry ... just woke up. Yes that's what I meant though ... you were mean to agree with him. You know better, but you've got some weird investment in libby land.

251 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:15:45am

re: #249 Salamantis

It's an empire!

252 Outrider  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:16:46am

re: #249 Salamantis

Evolution isn't conservative or liberal; it isn't political at all.
It's empirical science.

I'm as Conservative as they come; social and fiscal. And as strongly behind evolution and science as they come. There is nothing in Conservative values that state a person has to have evangelical beliefs and believe in literal Genesis to be considered a Conservative. Frankly I'm tired of being painted with that brush. ;-)>

253 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:18:17am

re: #250 Fearless Fred

Yes, I'm sorry ... just woke up. Yes that's what I meant though ... you were mean to agree with him. You know better, but you've got some weird investment in libby land.

The rejection of evolution in the face of overwhelming supporting empirical evidence isn't conservative; it's anti-knowledge - forsaking understanding in favor of faith, and abandoning the known in favor of the believed-in.

254 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:20:52am

re: #249 Salamantis

Evolution isn't conservative or liberal; it isn't political at all.
It's empirical science.

If evolution could vote, which way would it go? Does evolution like more government or less? Does evolution appreciate (and would it wish to preserve) basic God given rights?

255 rawmuse  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:20:55am

I may not be awake for Johnny Mathis. Took 3 advil, off to bed.

Meanwhile, murders and home invasion robberies are up in SF. The home invaders generally wait for you to open your garage door with your remote, then follow you inside. These are way up in my 'hood.

Tomorrow I go to DEFCON II (open carry on the hip).

Night Lizards!

256 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:23:57am

re: #247 stevieray

Not I... but someone earlier was complaining that LGF wasn't playing nice with her Safari browser today... can't remember who it was right now.

Maybe it was me. The whole internet is not playing nice with my Firefox but it's not just LGF, it seems to be everything.

257 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:25:40am

re: #208 mean Gene Auburn hair likely will stick around as the recessive and additvie genes assosciated with red hair will likely survive just the numbers of actual redheads will decline. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

258 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:30:12am

re: #253 Salamantis

The rejection of evolution in the face of overwhelming supporting empirical evidence isn't conservative; it's anti-knowledge - forsaking understanding in favor of faith, and abandoning the known in favor of the believed-in.

Maybe. I find them much less threatening (the anti-evolutionists) and much more fascinating that you do. I mean the intelligent ones. I don't really understand though, it seems like they're not always as much against evolution as just defending 'faith'. I have to admit I'm not so much aware of who or how many people are actually truly against evolution. Like in the famous debate Buckley once hosted, ... it seemed like both sides were more protecting their 'religions' than anything else.

259 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:30:58am

re: #255 rawmuse

'nite raw

260 stevieray  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:32:18am

re: #256 Pvt Bin Jammin

Maybe it was me. The whole internet is not playing nice with my Firefox but it's not just LGF, it seems to be everything.

Nah... I remember you!

Someone else had to open a new tab every time she wanted to comment, and I remember it was Safari, because I expected Charles to step in immediately and fix it -- he uses Safari himself -- and he didn't. That was surprising to me.

He must've left his house! Imagine that! An outside life! The noive of him!

261 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:34:51am

re: #254 Fearless Fred

If evolution could vote, which way would it go? Does evolution like more government or less? Does evolution appreciate (and would it wish to preserve) basic God given rights?

An anthropomorphized evolution would not cast any vote at all on such matters. Scientific theories don't harbor political opinions.

But I'm mystified as to why some self-professed conservatives mightily labor to embrace, ratify and affirm the foulest liberal slander against them - that they are willfully ignorant - by rejecting valid, solid and sound empirical science in favor of an empirically falsified Genesis Literalism. Do they wish to render such liberal canards true?

Genesis literalists do not own conservatism, nor do they define it. Religious fundamentalism and political conservatism are two entirely different things - or should be.

262 Outrider  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:36:25am

re: #258 Fearless Fred

Maybe. I find them much less threatening (the anti-evolutionists) and much more fascinating that you do. I mean the intelligent ones. I don't really understand though, it seems like they're not always as much against evolution as just defending 'faith'. I have to admit I'm not so much aware of who or how many people are actually truly against evolution. Like in the famous debate Buckley once hosted, ... it seemed like both sides were more protecting their 'religions' than anything else.

perhaps because of the constant attempts on their part to get the subject on school curriculum as a legitimate "alternative" to science, referring to evolution "as only a different theory".

263 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:42:11am

re: #253 Salamantis

The rejection of evolution in the face of overwhelming supporting empirical evidence isn't conservative; it's anti-knowledge - forsaking understanding in favor of faith, and abandoning the known in favor of the believed-in.

“Scepticism is the beginning of Faith.”
~ Oscar Wilde

264 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:44:43am

re: #258 Fearless Fred

Maybe. I find them much less threatening (the anti-evolutionists) and much more fascinating that you do. I mean the intelligent ones. I don't really understand though, it seems like they're not always as much against evolution as just defending 'faith'. I have to admit I'm not so much aware of who or how many people are actually truly against evolution. Like in the famous debate Buckley once hosted, ... it seemed like both sides were more protecting their 'religions' than anything else.

Wrong. Religious faith is defined by faith in empirically untestable dogmas. Evolutionary theory is all about empirical evidence. It is not necessary to believe in evolution; a dispassionate and objective perusal of the empirical evidence can lead one to accept evolution as solidly empirically grounded. Only one side is rejecting knowledge for the sake of belief here.

And it's actually not necessary for the faithful to reject evolution in order to embrace their faith, if they simply accept that the Genesis myth is poetic metaphor, and not literal history.

It cannot be literal history. Artifactual retroviral DNA conclusively demonstrates that the various species evolutionarily diverged from a very few ancient common ancestors, rather than being independently created as is, and radiometric dating conclusively demonstrates that the earth has been here for 4.6 billion years, and that life has been on it for more than 3 1/2 billion years, just as the Big Bang scho background echo red shift coefficient demonstrates that the Universe has been here for 13.7 billion years - not some few thousand.

Facts are stubborn things, and truth is not decided by popularity contests. The earth was spherical and circling the sun way before anyone accepted the fact.

265 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:47:46am

re: #261 Salamantis

I feel pretty much the same. I'm just more curious and fascinated than threatened. Should I feel threatened? Haven't Christians been on the whole in favor of good science?

266 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:49:27am

re: #263 Fearless Fred

“Scepticism is the beginning of Faith.”
~ Oscar Wilde

"Healthy noncynical scepticism and empirical investigation and experiment help one to discriminate between what one should and what one should not place one's faith in. Believing in demonstrable falsehoods does not render them true; it only renders one willfully self-deluded."
~ me

267 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:49:57am

Go get him Salamantis, he thinks he's thinks he being coy.

268 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:50:10am

re: #264 Salamantis

Disclaimer: I believe in both Evolution and God.

empirically untestable dogmas.

That would be wrong. When I leave church on Sunday, I am part of a group that is scientifically happier with life. Most Religious people I know are more content with life then the secular people I know, and if I am not mistaken this has been scientificlly proven as well.

And, just for fun, when was the begining of life proven in a lab. I know that evolution has been proven so don't pull that out, show me where life has been created from the ooze and a bolt of lightning please.

That too can be called "empirically untestable dogmas."

269 Earick  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:51:33am

Evolution is a theory! A very plausible theory but a theory just the same.
There are other theories that try to explain this existence that we find ourselves in but none have any lock on the truth.
Only theories!

270 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:53:03am

re: #264 Salamantis

Wrong. Religious faith is defined by faith in empirically untestable dogmas.

Is that right? Completely? Seems like you could observe the evidence over time whether Christians or Muslims have advanced in various ways, and you'd see differences.

271 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:53:28am

re: #265 Fearless Fred

I feel pretty much the same. I'm just more curious and fascinated than threatened. Should I feel threatened? Haven't Christians been on the whole in favor of good science?

Most of them have been. It is only a tiny extremist fringe that reject scientific understanding in favor of blind faith. Faith need not be empirically blind in order to demonstrate its religious fidelity. It can seamlessly coexist with piety and devotion. Just ask more than a billion Roman Catholics; the religion expressly accepts evolutionary theory as valid science.

272 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:54:16am

re: #269 Earick

careful there...to debate this on this site one must know the definition of a scientific theory:

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena
273 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:55:14am

re: #272 stonemason

Darn...link broke!

274 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:55:21am

re: #267 MrPaulRevere

Not really .... I'm not that brite. Just having fun, and trying to understand.

275 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:56:38am

The last time I checked, Christians are prohibited from bearing false witness (i.e lying). That would include spreading false anti scientific slander.

276 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 12:56:49am

re: #268 stonemason

Disclaimer: I believe in both Evolution and God.


That would be wrong. When I leave church on Sunday, I am part of a group that is scientifically happier with life. Most Religious people I know are more content with life then the secular people I know, and if I am not mistaken this has been scientificlly proven as well.

And, just for fun, when was the begining of life proven in a lab. I know that evolution has been proven so don't pull that out, show me where life has been created from the ooze and a bolt of lightning please.

That too can be called "empirically untestable dogmas."

Do not confuse evolutionary theory with origins of life theory. They are two different fields. Origins of life theory investigates how life began; evolutionary theory investigates what happens to populations of already-present organisms possesing high but not perfect copying fidelity when they are confronted by surrounding environments containing specific hazards and opportunities. And what happens is evolution via random mutation and environmental selection.

277 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:01:50am

Some people would prefer to embrace purportedly happy lies than to accept supposedly somber truths. They would rather continue to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy forever, even when the presents stop arriving. But once one's eyes have been open to the facts of the matter, one cannot willfully close them again.

Nor would I want to. I find the Universe in which I live and in which I belong by virtue of having evolved here to be an enthralling and inspiring place, and the actual empirical explanations for the phenomena we observeto be much more thrilling and satisfying than any ancient myths, no matter what faith proffers them.

278 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:02:47am

re: #276 Salamantis

You did it. You argued Evolution. I clearly stated that I understand evolution. Your original post was demeaning to people of faith, I asked you why your dogma commment couldn't be applied to the begining of life. You ignored the question.

I understand evolution, I understand the age of the earth, heck, I use 4.6 billion as my main argument against AGW, the climate data is not scientifically significant, not by a long shot.

I am not arguing with you Salamantis, I am asking you to not demean faith when you discuss evolution.

279 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:03:18am

re: #271 Salamantis

I'm Lutheran (maybe Catholic someday though - getting disgusted with the ELCA). We love evolution. No problem.

280 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:05:50am

re: #277 Salamantis

Some people would prefer to embrace purportedly happy lies than to accept supposedly somber truths. They would rather continue to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy forever,

You're being so rough tonight.

281 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:07:24am

re: #277 Salamantis

They would rather continue to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy forever, even when the presents stop arriving.

Name one person over the age of eight that believes in any of that.

/could you be any more pompous?

282 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:07:32am

re: #278 stonemason

You did it. You argued Evolution. I clearly stated that I understand evolution. Your original post was demeaning to people of faith, I asked you why your dogma commment couldn't be applied to the begining of life. You ignored the question.

I understand evolution, I understand the age of the earth, heck, I use 4.6 billion as my main argument against AGW, the climate data is not scientifically significant, not by a long shot.

I am not arguing with you Salamantis, I am asking you to not demean faith when you discuss evolution.

Yeah!

283 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:07:55am

re: #278 stonemason

"I am not arguing with you Salamantis, I am asking you to not demean faith when you discuss evolution".....and that's fair request. These conversations slip too easily into demonization contests

284 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:08:47am

re: #269 Earick

Evolution is a theory! A very plausible theory but a theory just the same.
There are other theories that try to explain this existence that we find ourselves in but none have any lock on the truth.
Only theories!

Ahh...the 'only a theory' creationist canard rears its ugly head yet again. Time to decapitate it once more.

The definition of the word 'theory' in scientific discourse is far more solidly grounding than the common parlance meaning of conjecture or hunch:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excerpt:

In science, the word theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet but we invoke theories of gravity to explain this occurrence. However, even inside the sciences the word theory picks out several different concepts dependent on the context. In casual speech scientists don't use the term theory in a particularly precise fashion, allowing historical accidents to determine whether a given body of scientific work is called a theory, law, principle or something else. For instance Einstein's relativity is usually called "the theory of relativity" while Newton's theory of gravity often is called "the law of gravity." In this kind of casual use by scientists the word theory can be used flexibly to refer to whatever kind of explanation or prediction is being examined. It is for this instance that a scientific theory is a claim based on a body of evidence.

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

285 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:08:48am
. . . may have looked far different from our traditional conception . . .

. . . feathers may first have served an insulating or aesthetic, rather than aerodynamic, purpose.

Rock solid science here backed up by air-tight research!

And the artists' conceptions--some show Archaeopteryx in flight, some gliding, this one obviously incapable of flight. Gosh, according to the fossil evidence, how were its feathers attached ? Like fur or more solidly anchored as in modern birds (attached to the bones through ligaments)? Did it have other avian characteristics associated with flight as with modern birds? If so, why? Is this then an example of anticipatory evolution?

Naturally, if one were found alive in New Guinea, Archaeopteryx could easily be adapted to the coelacanth explanation, a species that mysteriously avoided evolution for 400 million years. Piece of cake.

Yep, the article on Archaeopteryx is most certainly an elegant example of evolution, and of the rigorous storytelling science behind it.

-sk

286 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:10:20am

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with religion anyway, how did it get injected?

/rhetorical question

287 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:11:43am

re: #270 Fearless Fred

Is that right? Completely? Seems like you could observe the evidence over time whether Christians or Muslims have advanced in various ways, and you'd see differences.

How far a religion's adherents advance as far as their social mores and folkways, or their numbers, or their territorial expanse, or their level of devotional fervency, has nothing whatsoever to do with what empirical science demonstrates to be and to not be true of observed phenomena in the physical world.

288 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:13:17am

re: #269 Earick

Evolution is a theory! A very plausible theory but a theory just the same.
There are other theories that try to explain this existence that we find ourselves in but none have any lock on the truth.
Only theories!

Do you beleive in the stork's theory of reproduction?

289 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:15:54am

re: #283 MrPaulRevere

"I am not arguing with you Salamantis, I am asking you to not demean faith when you discuss evolution".....and that's fair request. These conversations slip too easily into demonization contests

Oh
Oooh yeah
Ah
Ziggy played guitar, jamming good with weird and gilly
And the spiders from mars. he played it left hand
But made it too far
Became the special man, then we were ziggy's band

That's why Jesus has a bigger following than Sala.

290 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:16:42am

re: #277 Salamantis

Salamantis, you can make your point without bashing people of faith. I always give you up dings on this subject. I'm just saying'....

291 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:18:09am

House Rules Package Could Curb Minority's Power, End Term Limits for Chairmen

An early partisan skirmish is likely in the House next week, when Speaker Nancy Pelosi is expected to move a rules package that would curb the GOP's ability to derail legislation through a parliamentary maneuver it has used over the past two years.

Democrats may also end the current three-term limit for committee chairmen -- a limit adopted by Republicans when they took over the House in 1995 and retained in the House rules adopted by Democrats when they regained the majority in the 110th Congress.

A senior House Democratic aide said Pelosi was expected to discuss the two proposed rules changes with Democrats on Monday and had not made a final decision on moving them.

/here comes the Bonkey steamroller

292 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:20:08am

Funny, I use the ding thing sparingly, mostly for fruit cup. Instead of trying to argue my point in 269 Salamantis decides to 'down-ding', proving to me that I got under his/her skin.

That post was simply a request to end the demeaning posts with regard to religion. To down ding that post, to me, screams that Salamantis has a problem seperating the evolution situation from religion and will continue to demean people of faith with snide comments such as 'myth' (277), 'lies' (277) and of course the post I found offensive "Religious faith is defined by faith in empirically untestable dogmas."

Back to lurking

293 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:20:33am

re: #290 MrPaulRevere

Salamantis, you can make your point without bashing people of faith.

/no he can't, it's what he lives for, why he only shows up on these type of threads

294 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:20:42am

re: #269 Earick

Evolution is a theory! A very plausible theory but a theory just the same.
There are other theories that try to explain this existence that we find ourselves in but none have any lock on the truth.
Only theories!

“Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve”
~Karl Popper!

295 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:24:00am

re: #278 stonemason

You did it. You argued Evolution. I clearly stated that I understand evolution. Your original post was demeaning to people of faith, I asked you why your dogma commment couldn't be applied to the begining of life. You ignored the question.

I understand evolution, I understand the age of the earth, heck, I use 4.6 billion as my main argument against AGW, the climate data is not scientifically significant, not by a long shot.

I am not arguing with you Salamantis, I am asking you to not demean faith when you discuss evolution.

It's kinda funny. The same people who call those who accept the empirical science behind evolutionary theory of being atheists, communists, nazis, or ethically and morally deficient, are the ones who scream, whine, bitch and moan when they are not granted unmerited and undeserved insulation and respect, simply because they embrace some religious dogma or other. It's like folks who accuse other folks of having a deep-seated need to psychoanalyze others, not realizing that they're doing the same damn thing that they're accusing others of doing, in their very assertion.

Here, we see a religious adherent playing the victim card, much like Muslims did when the Denmark Muhammed pics came out. But no one has the right not to be offended, and no one has the obligation not to offend, in an open and democratic free speech marketplace of ideas. People have the right to say whatever they wish. And other people have the right to criticize it. In the darwinian selection of fitter ideas, some will starve and others will thrive - and generally, for good reasons having to do with whether or not they are well and fully grounded in consensus reality.

296 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:25:40am

re: #289 Fearless Fred

Oh
Oooh yeah
Ah
Ziggy played guitar, jamming good with weird and gilly
And the spiders from mars. he played it left hand
But made it too far
Became the special man, then we were ziggy's band

That's why Jesus has a bigger following than Sala.

If popularity was a measure of facticity, then three thousand years ago, people would have been living on a flat earth circled by the sun, with the situation changing only when peoples' opinions of it changed.

297 hazzyday  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:28:21am

re: #277 Salamantis

I think behind the empirical explanations are still laws of nature that people interpret as divine. To lockstep into purely empirical explanations is to short change oneself on what life is.

298 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:28:53am

re: #287 Salamantis

How far a religion's adherents advance as far as their social mores and folkways, or their numbers, or their territorial expanse, or their level of devotional fervency, has nothing whatsoever to do with what empirical science demonstrates to be and to not be true of observed phenomena in the physical world.

You have an extremely odd perception of what constitutes advancement (as I meant - in the broadest sense).

299 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:29:18am

re: #295 Salamantis

I guess this means you are not going to answer the question. Does that mean you are stupid? Can't read? or just have no answer because there is no proof of when life began?

Look, why do you feel the need to be... when it comes to this? Makes no sense at all, and if nothing else it simply creates animosity.

Show me one time where I did any of the 'straw man' argument in your first paragraph, please. Then, show me where I claimed to be a vicitm.

I proved my point with words and facts, you did not. Pretty simple to me.


Show me where the begining of life is anything more than "DOGMA".

300 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:31:15am

re: #293 Killian Bundy

I'm a Christian who believes in science and has no issues with evolution. My faith is a private thing to me. The rhetoric tends to get heated on this issue.

301 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:32:05am

re: #292 stonemason

Funny, I use the ding thing sparingly, mostly for fruit cup. Instead of trying to argue my point in 269 Salamantis decides to 'down-ding', proving to me that I got under his/her skin.

That post was simply a request to end the demeaning posts with regard to religion. To down ding that post, to me, screams that Salamantis has a problem seperating the evolution situation from religion and will continue to demean people of faith with snide comments such as 'myth' (277), 'lies' (277) and of course the post I found offensive "Religious faith is defined by faith in empirically untestable dogmas."

Back to lurking

Wrong. I both downdinged your #269 and replied to it in #284.

The creation myths of various faiths are indeed myths. The statement that every species on earth was created independently and as is in the space of six days a few thousand years ago is an empirically provable lie, or untruth, or falsehood - choose your term. And if religious contentions could be empirically tested, they would cease to be religious dogmas and become scientific propositions.

302 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:32:51am

re: #298 Fearless Fred

You have an extremely odd perception of what constitutes advancement (as I meant - in the broadest sense).

I consider advancement in scientific understanding to be an essential part of advancement generally.

303 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:35:12am

re: #290 MrPaulRevere

That seems so weird to me how you down dinged my 289 Bowie comment.
I really don't get it.

304 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:36:38am

re: #301 Salamantis

Wrong. I both downdinged your #269 and replied to it in #284.

The creation myths of various faiths are indeed myths. The statement that every species on earth was created independently and as is in the space of six days a few thousand years ago is an empirically provable lie, or untruth, or falsehood - choose your term. And if religious contentions could be empirically tested, they would cease to be religious dogmas and become scientific propositions.

Wow, still avoiding the original question. One more time:


And, just for fun, when was the begining of life proven in a lab. I know that evolution has been proven so don't pull that out, show me where life has been created from the ooze and a bolt of lightning please.
305 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:37:42am

re: #301 Salamantis

Oh, and then you tell me I am wrong in calling you out on your constant demeaning of people of faith and try to prove me wrong by demeaning peopel of faith.

Nice

306 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:38:40am

re: #294 Fearless Fred

“Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve”
~Karl Popper!

“I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation” (Dialectica 32:344-346).
~Karl Popper!

And why? Because:

"[B]iologists employ optimization analyses to predict which combinations of morphological, behavioral, or physiological traits are more likely to be advantageous (i.e., to increase “fitness”) in the range of environments actually encountered by a given living form. They then sample natural populations of organisms, determine in which environments they actually live, measure those traits they hypothesize are more likely to make a difference, and obtain statistical predictions on where natural selection should push the population next. Finally, biologists wait until the next generation of organisms comes out and measure their characteristics again."

Karl Popper was a philosopher rather than a scientist, but he demonstrated the scientific mindset: he changed his mind about a conclusion he reached once he was show new information which contradicted his beliefs. This often isn't easy to do because no one likes to be wrong; with some conscious work, though, a person can make it a bit easier and learn to accept their own fallibility.

We can contrast this with the creationists who so love to cite Popper or at least make the same arguments he did without acknowledging their debt to him. When confronted with information that contradicts their beliefs, they refuse to change their minds. Instead, they deny the evidence or rationalize ways to ignore anything they don't like. Creationists want to benefit from the thinking of Karl Popper without committing themselves the consequences of his skeptical, philosophical, and critical mindset. Even worse, it's seems unlikely that they have any idea what this means.

307 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:40:14am
Youtube Video

William Anders:

"For all the people on Earth the crew of Apollo 8 has a message we would like to send you".

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

Jim Lovell:

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Frank Borman:

"And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

Borman then added, "And from the crew of Apollo 8, we close with good night, good luck, a Merry Christmas, and God bless all of you - all of you on the good Earth."

/damn unscientific myth believers!

308 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:42:10am

re: #299 stonemason

I guess this means you are not going to answer the question. Does that mean you are stupid? Can't read? or just have no answer because there is no proof of when life began?

Look, why do you feel the need to be... when it comes to this? Makes no sense at all, and if nothing else it simply creates animosity.

Show me one time where I did any of the 'straw man' argument in your first paragraph, please. Then, show me where I claimed to be a vicitm.

I proved my point with words and facts, you did not. Pretty simple to me.

Show me where the begining of life is anything more than "DOGMA".

“Science must begin with myths, and with the criticism of myths”
~~ Karl Popper

309 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:44:40am

While we are on this whole faith vs. science issue, do we all forget that all science starts as faith? All of it, every last stitch starts as a hypothesis, the faith that something will be provable to the point where it will become theory.
Then, there is the faith of the grant writers that science will prove something about something and make tons of money.
Faith is intertwined in science and must be. With out faith no one would take a chance at anything, life sure would be boring.

310 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:44:51am

re: #306 Salamantis

Sala -- I never meant to imply Popper was ever against evolution. I assumed he was always fine with the theory.

311 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:44:57am

re: #299 stonemason

I guess this means you are not going to answer the question. Does that mean you are stupid? Can't read? or just have no answer because there is no proof of when life began?

Look, why do you feel the need to be... when it comes to this? Makes no sense at all, and if nothing else it simply creates animosity.

Show me one time where I did any of the 'straw man' argument in your first paragraph, please. Then, show me where I claimed to be a vicitm.

I proved my point with words and facts, you did not. Pretty simple to me.


Show me where the begining of life is anything more than "DOGMA".

There is empirical scientific work being done in origins of life theory. Charles has posted some of it in the past; here is some more:

[Link: blog.wired.com...]

Please demonstrate where the contention that some deity created the Universe is being subjected to empirical investigation and experiment. You can't. That's what makes such a contention religious dogma. And the fact that scientists are currently experimentally investigating the origins of life, and can do so, removes it from the realm of religious dogma and places it in the domain of empirical science.

312 Fearless Fred  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:48:48am

Sorry --- gotta go back to sleep. Back in the rack. Good night Salamantis, an' everybody.

Sweet dreams.

313 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:50:27am

Anyone like to call the Red Sox the 'New Yankees' NOW?

314 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:50:47am

re: #311 Salamantis


you're kinda funny, really, in a sad way. There have been many studies that used science to prove or disprove the history presented in many of the religious books available to man. One could argue that the methods used to date the planet were determined by someone trying to either prove or disprove Genisis.
In an earlier post you completely discounted the social sciences as empirical, or it seemed to me that you did, when you discounted the eveolution of different religions.

Oh, and I test for the presence of bacteria in the water I treat, that does not mean there is bacteria in the water. Just because there are scientists testing for something does not mean that thing exists, it does, however, mean that someone believes that the existence can be proven.

315 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:52:06am

Give it up people, just accept the fact that religious belif is stupid and counterproductive to human achievement.

/besides, arguing about it is like a Chinese finger trap and you'll never get the last word in anyway

316 stevieray  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:53:17am

re: #313 Fenway_Nation

Anyone like to call the Red Sox the 'New Yankees' NOW?

Why? What happened?

317 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:53:29am

re: #304 stonemason

And, just for fun, when was the begining of life proven in a lab. I know that evolution has been proven so don't pull that out, show me where life has been created from the ooze and a bolt of lightning please.

Here is a recent step towards just such a demonstration:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

But it matters not. I see the game you're playing. As long as scientists DON'T create new life, you will demand as to how it could possible be created in the absence of divine intervention. But the moment that they DO create it, you will simply say that it, too, was intelligently designed - even when the design is to recreate naturally occurring terrestrial conditions that existed billions of years ago.

Busted.

318 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:55:30am

re: #305 stonemason

Oh, and then you tell me I am wrong in calling you out on your constant demeaning of people of faith and try to prove me wrong by demeaning peopel of faith.

Nice

It may ruffle your feathers to accurately describe states of affairs as what they in fact are, but accurate description, by definition, can never be considered an insult.

319 Outrider  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:57:13am

re: #315 Killian Bundy

Give it up people, just accept the fact that religious belif is stupid and counterproductive to human achievement.

/besides, arguing about it is like a Chinese finger trap and you'll never get the last word in anyway

And on that note I'm going to bag it for the night. G'ite all!

320 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:57:38am

re: #299 stonemason


There are a lot of theories in abiogenesis which speculate on the origins of life but nothing definitive. You can imagine what a mind blowingly complex investigation this is because we are trying to explain how microscopic cells bootstrapped life into existence billions of years ago. We perhaps might never have a definitive answer though with the unlocking of the Genome I am cautiously optimistic. Please this cannot be characterized as Dogma because there is no particular theory which rules.

321 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 1:58:25am

re: #309 stonemason

While we are on this whole faith vs. science issue, do we all forget that all science starts as faith? All of it, every last stitch starts as a hypothesis, the faith that something will be provable to the point where it will become theory.
Then, there is the faith of the grant writers that science will prove something about something and make tons of money.
Faith is intertwined in science and must be. With out faith no one would take a chance at anything, life sure would be boring.

Science started as an activity of faith, but it didn't stay there. It developed a nasty habit of disproving what the clerisy wanted it to confirm. Galileo was threatened with death for such heresy; Giordano Bruno was actually roasted at the stake for it.

322 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:00:08am

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ---------------->
Help yourselves!

Good day, ALL!™

323 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:01:04am

re: #317 Salamantis

Here is a recent step towards just such a demonstration:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

But it matters not. I see the game you're playing. As long as scientists DON'T create new life, you will demand as to how it could possible be created in the absence of divine intervention. But the moment that they DO create it, you will simply say that it, too, was intelligently designed - even when the design is to recreate naturally occurring terrestrial conditions that existed billions of years ago.

Busted.


Okay, one last time. I understand and agree with the science of evolution. If Science proves that the lightning bolt hit the marsh with x volts at x temperature and created x I will read as much as I can and try to understand it as I have evolution.

you are the one who has been busted on this thread, you are the one who can not escape from your shell of anti-religion at all cost.

I started my first post with a belief in both evolution and God, you saw the God part and attacked, as I have seen you do many times.
Mu first point is that those who hope that science cooks up life in a lab to dis-prove creation are just as dogmatic as young earth Id'ers.

Live with it.

324 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:01:27am

re: #322 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ---------------->
Help yourselves!

Good day, ALL!™

/11 1/2 hours until playoff football!

325 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:03:12am

fruitcup pot luck!

326 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:03:14am

After a year and a half here it's my first fruitcup. Three cheers for insomnia! Thanks lol!

327 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:03:19am

re: #324 Killian Bundy

Who plays today, Killian?

/Go Eagles!
//the Accidental Playoff Team

328 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:04:05am

re: #318 Salamantis

It may ruffle your feathers to accurately describe states of affairs as what they in fact are, but accurate description, by definition, can never be considered an insult.


You like empirical proofs, right? you claim that the demeaning language you use in your arguments are 'facts'. Okay, prove them, empirically.

Ya see, you can't, as you so clearly stated in a previous post.

I also stated that I wasn't arguing with you regarding evolution, another fact you ignored through all of this, just so you could toss out more inflammatory language in regards to religion.

I am beginning to think KB was right.

329 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:04:33am

re: #322 littleoldlady


Thanks Lil' one, welcome back!

330 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:06:08am

red! :-)

stonemason! :-)

Not back yet. Car broke down in FL. We made it to Jacksonville. We MAY make it all the way home today.

/or not

What's the weather?

331 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:06:42am

re: #316 stevieray

Nothing new since the Burnett/Sabathia/Teixera signings. How much did those 3 go for combined? $400+ Million? Not to mention they signed Tim Wakefield's designated catcher (Kevin Cash) to a 1yr minor league deal- which smacks of desperation more than the aforementioned trio of huge-money contracts.

As far as I know, Boston reached a 1yr deal with Josh Bard and another 1yr deal with Brad Penny pending a physical later on this month.

And to all those people who kept insisting that 'Boston is just like the NY Yankees', remind me which hapless, struggling clubs we swooped in and picked up the likes of Dustin Pedroia, Jon Lester, Jacoby Ellsbury, Kevin Youkilis, Jed Lowrie or Jonathan Papelbon from....was it Seattle? Kansas City? Pittsburgh? Baltimore?

Or were the aforementioned player home-grown products?

332 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:07:42am

re: #327 littleoldlady

Who plays today, Killian?

/Go Eagles!
//the Accidental Playoff Team

Sat Jan 3, 2009
4:30 p.m. ET Atlanta Falcons Arizona Cardinals 50 °F

8:00 p.m. ET Indianapolis Colts San Diego Chargers 54 °F

Sun Jan 4, 2009
1:00 p.m. ET Baltimore Ravens Miami Dolphins 75 °F

4:30 p.m. ET Philadelphia Eagles Minnesota Vikings 32 °F

/even as a Vikings fan, I picked McNabb, Westbrook, and Aikers for my fantasy league's playoff challenge

333 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:08:13am

re: #330 littleoldlady

cold, but no snow in the forecast till Tuesday

334 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:08:38am

re: #332 Killian Bundy

/even as a Vikings fan, I picked McNabb, Westbrook, and Aikers for my fantasy league's playoff challenge

YOU DID?!

;-)

335 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:08:42am

re: #327 littleoldlady


What would you rather have in Tieadelphia? An accidental 9-6-1 playoff team or an 11-5 team that doesn't make the playoffs?

/You can't have the best team in the NHL, since they currently reside in Boston!

336 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:09:17am

re: #322 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ---------------->
Help yourselves!

Good day, ALL!™

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ---------------->
Help yourselves!

fixed that for ya!
(even if it does taste funny.... %-)

/white smoke

337 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:10:21am

re: #314 stonemason

you're kinda funny, really, in a sad way. There have been many studies that used science to prove or disprove the history presented in many of the religious books available to man. One could argue that the methods used to date the planet were determined by someone trying to either prove or disprove Genisis.

Your gratuitous and fallacious ad hominem sidewipe is duly noted and dismissed. Whenever one theory is affirmed, competing stances suffer. Empirical science practices winnowing evidentially supportable wheat from empirically non-supportable or falsified chaff all the time. The elimination of alternative explanations is as important as the presentation of a new one, if not more so.

In an earlier post you completely discounted the social sciences as empirical, or it seemed to me that you did, when you discounted the eveolution of different religions.

Religions have indeed evolved. They began as polytheistic, with every rock and tree seen as inhabited by its own spirit. Then these spirits were gathered up into pantheons (Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, Norse, etc.), where one king spirit held sway over them all; this is known as henotheism. Finally, the boss god absorbed all the others deities into itself, and monotheism emerged.

Oh, and I test for the presence of bacteria in the water I treat, that does not mean there is bacteria in the water. Just because there are scientists testing for something does not mean that thing exists, it does, however, mean that someone believes that the existence can be proven.

No, it means that there are empirical methods by means of which the truth status of an empirical assertion may be ascertained. No such empirical methods exist for testing for the presence or absence of a extra-empirical divine. They cannot even exist in principle.

338 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:10:31am

re: #333 stonemason

YAY.

/not for the cold. the no-snow

339 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:11:08am

re: #336 redc1c4

I didn't want to get in the way of the evolution discussion ;-)

340 littleoldlady  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:12:33am

Gotta run, folks. Great day, ALL!

341 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:15:05am

re: #334 littleoldlady

YOU DID?!

;-)

Yeah, between Peterson fumbling and Jackson throwing to his imaginary friends, I just have a feeling the Vikings are going to lose. Then, if the Eagles can get past Carolina, they'll probably get the Giants, who they've beaten in the NFC Championship.

/playoff fantasy football is all about picking players that can score and will hopefully play more than one game

342 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:15:06am

re: #337 Salamantis


Your gratuitous and fallacious ad hominem sidewipe is duly noted and dismissed.

He/she who lives by the ad hominem...and it wasn't gratuituos or fallacious, it was mean-spirited and factual, the best kind.

343 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:15:43am

back to work

344 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:20:32am

re: #339 littleoldlady

I didn't want to get in the way of the evolution discussion ;-)

no guts, no glory.....

besides: why let those idjits drive the LNDT?

345 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:21:05am

re: #342 stonemason

He/she who lives by the ad hominem...and it wasn't gratuituos or fallacious, it was mean-spirited and factual, the best kind.

You're not going to get the last word.

/you're just provoking Newton's Third Law of [comment] Motion

346 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:23:09am

re: #323 stonemason

Okay, one last time. I understand and agree with the science of evolution. If Science proves that the lightning bolt hit the marsh with x volts at x temperature and created x I will read as much as I can and try to understand it as I have evolution.

you are the one who has been busted on this thread, you are the one who can not escape from your shell of anti-religion at all cost.

I started my first post with a belief in both evolution and God, you saw the God part and attacked, as I have seen you do many times.
Mu first point is that those who hope that science cooks up life in a lab to dis-prove creation are just as dogmatic as young earth Id'ers.

Live with it.

You must be referring to you post # 268, which I shall quote in its entirety:

Disclaimer: I believe in both Evolution and God.

empirically untestable dogmas.

That would be wrong. When I leave church on Sunday, I am part of a group that is scientifically happier with life. Most Religious people I know are more content with life then the secular people I know, and if I am not mistaken this has been scientificlly proven as well.

And, just for fun, when was the begining of life proven in a lab. I know that evolution has been proven so don't pull that out, show me where life has been created from the ooze and a bolt of lightning please.

That too can be called "empirically untestable dogmas."

Sal: Now here, you first attack secularism as inexorably leading to individual human misery, then try to divert the discussion from evolutionary theory to origins of life theory. I point out that the two are different fields and that one cannot be used to argue against the other in post #276, and then dispute your claim that secularism must lead to some sort of depression in my next post, while also pointing out that willfully embracing empirical untruth for the sake of emotional benefit is not particularly morally laudabe.

What was actually happening was that I was replying to your attack upon secularism as an emotionally damaging doctrine. And then you gratuitously mischaracterized that reply as an attack upon religion, much as jihadis consider the refusal of their offer to convert to be a casus belli attack and affront.

347 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:23:15am

re: #344 redc1c4


I think I need an extra helping of your enhanced fruitcup if I'm gonna hang on this thread much longer....

348 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:24:17am

re: #342 stonemason

gonna fav this thread, just so i can read it later.........

/buckets of ice water in both directions

349 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:27:32am

re: #345 Killian Bundy

You're not going to get the last word.

/you're just provoking Newton's Third Law of [comment] Motion

/what'd I say?

350 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:28:09am

re: #347 Fenway_Nation

I think I need an extra helping of your enhanced fruitcup if I'm gonna hang on this thread much longer....

/XXl serving......

or did you want one from the smoothie machine? %-)

now gimme a hand with this six inch line from the water cooler...........

/i figger they're kinda like dogs in heat: ya gotta bust'em up first.

351 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:29:00am

re: #328 stonemason

You like empirical proofs, right? you claim that the demeaning language you use in your arguments are 'facts'. Okay, prove them, empirically.

Ya see, you can't, as you so clearly stated in a previous post.

I also stated that I wasn't arguing with you regarding evolution, another fact you ignored through all of this, just so you could toss out more inflammatory language in regards to religion.

I am beginning to think KB was right.

Creation myths are by definition myths, just as white dogs are by definition dogs. Empirical science has experimentally falsified the Genesis contention that species were created independently and as is, by means of artifactual; retroviral DNA sequences, which conclusively demonstrate common ancestry beyond a rational statistical doubt. And the definition of a dogma is that which is not amenable to empirical verification or falsification.

352 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:30:49am

re: #346 Salamantis

That is the most inane string of projection and B.S. I have read in a long time. Please, just for me, put your thesaurus down and answer one last question:

is it possible for you to discuss evolution with out demeaning religion?

353 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:33:37am

re: #342 stonemason

He/she who lives by the ad hominem...and it wasn't gratuituos or fallacious, it was mean-spirited and factual, the best kind.

Whether YOU consider me, a person whom you've never met and only read some posts by, to be funny and sad, has no relation whatsoever to whether I actually AM or not. But none of that has to do with the subject at hand.

That's why ad hominems are a 2500 year old Greek logical fallacy. But those who have nothing else to offer often attack the messenger when they can't refute the message. But contentions stand or fall on their own merits and deserts, not upon the identity of their profferer.

354 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:34:05am

re: #350 redc1c4


How long has that smoothie machine been there?

355 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:34:23am

re: #349 Killian Bundy

/what'd I say?

she's about a mover?

356 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:35:34am

re: #352 stonemason

That is the most inane string of projection and B.S. I have read in a long time. Please, just for me, put your thesaurus down and answer one last question:

is it possible for you to discuss evolution with out demeaning religion?

Aw [expletive deleted], just stop feeding it. Just accept that religion is the scourge of civilization and it'll be over for tonight.

/stand by for many more paragraphs of condescending pomposity

357 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:35:58am

re: #353 Salamantis

exactly, and I can go back up thread and pick and choose your ad hominems and straw men till the cows come home, yet you will still pretend you do not use them. That is funny, in a sad way, hence the factual yet mean spirited attack on my part.

Remember, it was you who posted that one does not have the right to not be offend here...or did you forget that too?

358 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:37:02am

re: #354 Fenway_Nation

How long has that smoothie machine been there?

it's OEM, as far as i can tell.....

smoothie/margarita/daiquiri: it's all a fine pour, IMHO.

359 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:37:35am

re: #356 Killian Bundy

Sorry, I was bored tongiht, nothing going on so I decided to defend religion. Oh well, off to bed soon anyway.

360 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:37:42am

re: #352 stonemason

That is the most inane string of projection and B.S. I have read in a long time. Please, just for me, put your thesaurus down and answer one last question:

is it possible for you to discuss evolution with out demeaning religion?

It depends. If it means that I must respect the empirically falsified doctrine of Genesis Literalism, NO. If it means to respect the belief in a deity in general, I'm fine with that. But do not equate the belief in a single deity with religion in general; Paganism (my own faith) and Hinduism have many gods, while Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism don't have any at all. Or do you consider all non-Judeo-Christian religions to not qualify for the religion designation?

361 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:40:13am

re: #359 stonemason

Sorry, I was bored tongiht, nothing going on so I decided to defend religion. Oh well, off to bed soon anyway.

just out of curiosity, why didn't you let religion defend itself?

362 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:40:23am

re: #357 stonemason

exactly, and I can go back up thread and pick and choose your ad hominems and straw men till the cows come home, yet you will still pretend you do not use them. That is funny, in a sad way, hence the factual yet mean spirited attack on my part.

Remember, it was you who posted that one does not have the right to not be offend here...or did you forget that too?

Please show me my ad hominems, and demonstrate their purported falsity. By definition, ad hominems have to be non-factual.

And I am not offended by you. You amuse me.

363 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:42:35am

US gives Israel free rein on whether to invade Gaza

US President George W. Bush, in remarks to be broadcast Saturday, urged all able parties to press Hamas to stop firing rockets at Israel and secure a lasting ceasefire, after a week of heavy Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip.

His administration meanwhile gave Israel free rein over whether to send ground troops into Gaza, despite growing criticism over its handling of a conflict that has killed at least 435 people, including 66 children.

The airstrikes haven't stopped the rockets.

/that's the overall objective of the Cast Lead operation

364 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:42:36am

re: #360 Salamantis


projection again, but that's cool, whatever.

No, religion is religion, regardless of the faith. And now I see that you will not refrain from being condescending towards religions that are not to your liking.

I will remember that and avoid you in the future.

365 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:44:08am

and now, in the great LNDT tradition, the flame warriors kiss, make up and ride off into the sunrise of a new day, and the prospect of yet another ID thread to come.........

/fruitcup for all hands!

366 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:45:45am

re: #361 redc1c4

'Cause I was bored and needed some excitement in my shift. I have lurked many a thread where religion has been demeaned out of hand and decided it was time to make a small stand.

If we can all agree that there is dogma everywhere we look, including science, we might understand each other more. When those that do not admit they are arguing on faith try to demean others that freely admit they are faith-based it drives me a little nuts.

oh well, back to work for a minute again.

367 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:46:11am

re: #363 Killian Bundy

US gives Israel free rein on whether to invade Gaza

The airstrikes haven't stopped the rockets.

/that's the overall objective of the Cast Lead operation

but then again, 'Cast Lead' isn't necessarily restricted to just air attacks.

368 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:47:51am

re: #365 redc1c4

and now, in the great LNDT tradition, the flame warriors kiss, make up and ride off into the sunrise of a new day, and the prospect of yet another ID thread to come.......

/you won't get good odds in Vegas

369 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:48:12am

re: #364 stonemason

projection again, but that's cool, whatever.

No, religion is religion, regardless of the faith. And now I see that you will not refrain from being condescending towards religions that are not to your liking.

I will remember that and avoid you in the future.

I will not refrain from pointing out when certain religious contentions are empirically demonstrable as false, if that's what you mean. No matter to which religion they belong.

370 BignJames  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:49:46am

re: #368 Killian Bundy

I notice he's studiously ignored you.

371 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:51:06am

re: #366 stonemason

'Cause I was bored and needed some excitement in my shift. I have lurked many a thread where religion has been demeaned out of hand and decided it was time to make a small stand.

If we can all agree that there is dogma everywhere we look, including science, we might understand each other more. When those that do not admit they are arguing on faith try to demean others that freely admit they are faith-based it drives me a little nuts.

oh well, back to work for a minute again.

But the difference between dogmatic faith and empirical knowledge is the presence or absence of empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory has it in abundance; creationism and its PR propaganda renamed clone Intelligent Design do not - not a single shred:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

372 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:52:58am

re: #368 Killian Bundy

/you won't get good odds in Vegas

Of course not, but they've run out of preplanned aerial targets and they've got ground troops ready to step off on order.

Time's a wastin', the "International Community" is getting it's collective knickers in a twist and the pressure on Israel will be intense come Monday.

/[expletive deleted] or get off the pot

373 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:53:04am

re: #366 stonemason

'Cause I was bored and needed some excitement in my shift. I have lurked many a thread where religion has been demeaned out of hand and decided it was time to make a small stand.

If we can all agree that there is dogma everywhere we look, including science, we might understand each other more. When those that do not admit they are arguing on faith try to demean others that freely admit they are faith-based it drives me a little nuts.

oh well, back to work for a minute again.

science isn't 'dogma'.

that you think it is raises questions as to at least your vocabulary.....

374 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:53:28am

re: #370 BignJames

I notice he's studiously ignored you.

/good for me

375 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:53:49am

re: #368 Killian Bundy

/you won't get good odds in Vegas

true, but they won't get much odder than these too......

376 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:54:02am

re: #363 Killian Bundy

It looks very unlikely that there will be a ground invasion, all the chatter suggests that Israel is looking for a UN force in Gaza.

377 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:54:40am

re: #367 redc1c4

but then again, 'Cast Lead' isn't necessarily restricted to just air attacks.

Try this again . . .

Of course not, but they've run out of preplanned aerial targets and they've got ground troops ready to step off on order.

Time's a wastin', the "International Community" is getting it's collective knickers in a twist and the pressure on Israel will be intense come Monday.

/[expletive deleted] or get off the pot

378 BignJames  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:55:12am

re: #376 Westward Ho


Who would supply troops?

379 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:55:24am

It's a common tactic; those who cannot elevate religious dogma to the status of empirical science strive to reduce empirical science to the status of religious dogma. But here, too, they fail.

The realms of knowledge and belief are forever separate domains. When either of them attempts to poach on the other's territory, they receive - and deserve - rough treatment.

380 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:55:32am

re: #370 BignJames

I notice he's studiously ignored you.

i'm not one for studying...... but i occasionally get busy.

/white smoke

381 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:56:28am

That's just how most conservatives feel about evolution. ((249) Not true)
are the ones who scream, whine, bitch and moan when they are not granted unmerited and undeserved insulation and respect, simply because they embrace some religious dogma or other ((295) I never did any of that, nor had anyone on this thread)
Here, we see a religious adherent playing the victim card, much like Muslims did when the Denmark Muhammed pics came out ((295) Particularly egregious)
But it matters not. I see the game you're playing. ((317)I was asking a legitimate question, no game involved)


I am done now...

382 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:57:19am

re: #373 redc1c4

Science isn't 'dogma'? Tell that to the AGWers.

383 BignJames  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:57:53am

re: #382 Walter Cronanty

Good point.

384 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:58:00am

re: #376 Westward Ho

It looks very unlikely that there will be a ground invasion, all the chatter suggests that Israel is looking for a UN force in Gaza.

I suppose, to Kadima, that beats losing vehicles, taking casualties, and risking soldiers being taken prisoner by Hamas.

/the UN force in Lebanon is about as useful as a third tit

385 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 2:59:35am

re: #379 Salamantis

they receive - and deserve - rough treatment.

/ouch, you're hurting me

386 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:00:47am

re: #382 Walter Cronanty

Science isn't 'dogma'? Tell that to the AGWers.

why try to teach a pig to sing?

387 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:01:43am

Check out this scathing article by Caroline Glick on the feckess Israeli leadership.

Hamas's march to victory

388 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:02:07am

re: #376 Westward Ho Dear lord the Israeli's are that dumb are they asking for UN troops in Gaza. So more of this can happen.

389 stonemason  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:02:11am

re: #373 redc1c4

no, the actual science is not dogma, but the thoughts that lead to empirical study are. Someone and to have faith that the earth was round, someone had to ahve faith that the apple would fall at the same rate all the time, there is faith that stem cells will lead to cures, there is faith that there is life out in space, there is faith that life crawled out of the ooze.

And let is not forget the biggest current dogma, AGW, that claims to be science based, does it not?

390 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:02:24am

re: #377 Killian Bundy

so what is your reasonable alternative plan?

(you *do* have one, don't you? %-)

391 redc1c4  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:06:25am

re: #389 stonemason

dude, you're too far into the 'stone' part of your nick for me to deal with....
at least without a serious buzz near to what you're carrying.

hasta!

392 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:07:34am

re: #378 BignJames

Standard blue helmets from various countries I suppose. The window for ground operations is rapidly closing. There is intense diplomacy slated for this week.

393 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:10:03am

re: #381 stonemason

That's just how most conservatives feel about evolution. ((249) Not true)
are the ones who scream, whine, bitch and moan when they are not granted unmerited and undeserved insulation and respect, simply because they embrace some religious dogma or other ((295) I never did any of that, nor had anyone on this thread)

It has been done on many other threads. The labels of atheist, communist, nazi, and ethically and morally deficient, have all been repeatedly, and fallaciously, applied.

Here, we see a religious adherent playing the victim card, much like Muslims did when the Denmark Muhammed pics came out ((295) Particularly egregious)

Whenever people demand a respect that they are unwilling to provide, the hypocritical double standard is obvious and evident. And your first post did indeed contend that secularism inevitably rendered its adherents sad (I'm still waiting for your mentioned scientific studies on this point).

But it matters not. I see the game you're playing. ((317)I was asking a legitimate question, no game involved)

And yet you proceeded to play that very game in post # 323:

Mu first point is that those who hope that science cooks up life in a lab to dis-prove creation are just as dogmatic as young earth Id'ers.

Because one side isn't trying to do anything but slander any empirical science they might perceive as theologically threatening (while doing none of it themselves) in defence of their pet dogmas, while the other side is actively investigating and experimenting, and is perfectly, and undogmatically, willing to follow the empirical evidence thus derived wherever it might lead.

I am done now...

*sticking a fork in you* ;~)

394 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:11:54am

re: #390 redc1c4

so what is your reasonable alternative plan?

(you *do* have one, don't you? %-)

Well, if they're not going in on the ground, I suppose really stepping up the targeted assassinations would be the next best thing, wherever that leads.

/starting in Damascus with asshole #3 and Beirut with Asshole #2

395 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:12:29am

re: #382 Walter Cronanty

Science isn't 'dogma'? Tell that to the AGWers.

There's a difference between bad science and the absence of science. Science is a self-correcting enterprise, but it cannot in principle address religious dogma unless assertions are made that transgress the empirical domain. And as the counterfactual empirical evidence mounts, responsible scientists are fleeing AGW in droves.

396 Walter Cronanty  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:12:54am

re: #386 redc1c4

Why teach them to sing when the three little pigs will evolve into the three tenors?
/ducks
I just would like a little vaunted scientific, demonstrable evidence before our sick economy is flushed into the commode and we're turned into a third world country, all on the altar of "scientific consensus."

397 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:15:44am

re: #389 stonemason

no, the actual science is not dogma, but the thoughts that lead to empirical study are. Someone and to have faith that the earth was round, someone had to ahve faith that the apple would fall at the same rate all the time, there is faith that stem cells will lead to cures, there is faith that there is life out in space, there is faith that life crawled out of the ooze.

And let is not forget the biggest current dogma, AGW, that claims to be science based, does it not?

Scientists need not believe that an empirical assertion is true; they must merely be willing to entertain the possibility that it might be true. From there, they experimentally investigate in order to empirically ascertain whether it in fact is or not.

398 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:17:38am
Youtube Video

/[who] put another nickel in?

399 Buster Bunny  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:21:04am

re: #397 Salamantis

Scientists need not believe that an empirical assertion is true; they must merely be willing to entertain the possibility that it might be true. From there, they experimentally investigate in order to empirically ascertain whether it in fact is or not.

Yay !

Wot e sed. Luvverly

400 Buster Bunny  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:22:23am

re: #394 Killian Bundy

Well, if they're not going in on the ground, I suppose really stepping up the targeted assassinations would be the next best thing, wherever that leads.

/starting in Damascus with asshole #3 and Beirut with Asshole #2

Are you numbering your assholes again? You may run out of numbers for Hamas.

401 Mr Secul  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:29:41am

re: #389 stonemason

no, the actual science is not dogma, but the thoughts that lead to empirical study are. Someone and to have faith that the earth was round, someone had to ahve faith that the apple would fall at the same rate all the time, there is faith that stem cells will lead to cures, there is faith that there is life out in space, there is faith that life crawled out of the ooze.

And let is not forget the biggest current dogma, AGW, that claims to be science based, does it not?

How do you define faith?

You seem to think that a hypothesis is faith or requires faith. I think that the two things are separate.

A hypothesis is meant to be tested, if it fails a test then it is rejected. By definition a hypothesis must be testable and must be tested and must be rejected if it fails the test.

Faith is supposed to be longer lasting and its considered a virtue by people of faith to hold onto faith even if the world seems to be against it. By definition you stick to faith and you hold it in high regard.

They are opposites.

402 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:30:21am

re: #400 Buster Bunny

Are you numbering your assholes again? You may run out of numbers for Hamas.

/gotta keep at it or you'll eventually get overrun, between Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah it won't be that far into the future that all of Israell is in rocket range

403 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:30:27am

re: #395 Salamantis

[A]ssertions are made that transgress the empirical domain

Rotating title?

404 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:36:21am

Well once asshole Ω is done for maybe we will have a break.

405 BignJames  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:36:43am

re: #403 Dar ul Harb

He's big on empirical tonight.

406 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:39:59am

re: #405 BignJames

He's big on empirical tonight.

That's what makes evidence evidence.

407 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:40:21am

They're now talking about Hamas being able to possibly hit Dimona.

/assuming Hezbollah has the same or better weapons, according to the map, that puts almost the entire Israeli population within range

408 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:40:41am

Any more Gaza mosque secondary explosions I should know about?

409 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:45:41am

re: #405 BignJames
Yeah but a belief in something only because the empire(and Emperor Palpatine)say its is so is probably worse than believing without doubt something just because the bible says it is so. Unless its about those damdable Ewoks.

410 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:46:01am

re: #407 Killian Bundy

They're now talking about Hamas being able to possibly hit Dimona.

/assuming Hezbollah has the same or better weapons, according to the map, that puts almost the entire Israeli population within range

I'd read that on an earlier thread. Iranian proxies are no doubt standing by for Israel's prospective attack on Iranian nuke sites.

411 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:46:43am

re: #408 Dar ul Harb
I'm hoping by this time next week there isn't a mosque in Gaza standing.

412 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:48:32am

re: #410 Dar ul Harb
The new Katyusha rockets Hamas is firing, along with the old standby Qassams, are likely being funneled to Gaza by Hezbollah. Hezzbollah is known to have the Katyushas which are the more recent longer range rockets being fired into Israel.

413 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:49:34am

Exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said from Damascus Friday that his militant group was prepared for an Israeli ground invasion of the Gaza Strip and could abduct abduct more soldiers if Israel attempts the incursion.

"If you commit a foolish act by raiding Gaza, who knows, we may have a second or a third or a fourth Shalit," he said, according to Reuters. Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was kidnapped by Hamas in a cross-border raid more than two years ago.

Mr. Khaled Meshaal meet Mr. Smart Bomb, Smart Bomb meet Mr. Khaled Meshaal...BOOM!
aww love at first sight...

414 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:52:43am

re: #410 Dar ul Harb

I'd read that on an earlier thread. Iranian proxies are no doubt standing by for Israel's prospective attack on Iranian nuke sites.

I'm not worried about the Dimona complex itself, it's ground secure and hardened against a nuclear first strike.

/if you look at a map of the region though, it's the possible range that should be scaring the [expletive deleted] Zionists everywhere

415 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:54:54am

re: #414 Killian Bundy

scaring the [expletive deleted] out of Zionists everywhere

/didn't read too well the other way

416 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:55:36am

re: #415 Killian Bundy
Was gonna say what did israel do to piss you off today.

417 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:57:23am

re: #413 Dustyvet

How does the chinless ophthalmologist (hey, check out the first hit in a Google search for "chinless ophthalmologist"! Heh.) get by with harboring a known terrorist leader, anyway?

418 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 3:59:15am

re: #417 Dar ul Harb

How does the chinless ophthalmologist (hey, check out the first hit in a Google search for "chinless ophthalmologist"! Heh.) get by with harboring a known terrorist leader, anyway?

The same way he got by with harboring Imad Mugniyeh - until he had to sample some of his own car bomb wares.

419 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:02:47am

re: #372 Killian Bundy

Of course not, but they've run out of preplanned aerial targets and they've got ground troops ready to step off on order.
Time's a wastin', the "International Community" is getting it's collective knickers in a twist and the pressure on Israel will be intense come Monday.
/[expletive deleted] or get off the pot

I suspect that your pronouncement that the IAF has run out of pre-planned aerial targets is well-intentioned, but you will forgive me if I do not take your word for it. Moreover, I am sure you would agree that Gaza is a target-rich environment and that the IAF is perfectly capable of acquiring additional targets as may be necessary.

Israel can no longer afford to allow the "international Community" to dictate its military tactical decisions. That is one of the lessons of Lebanon.

The ground troops should not be ordered to invade Gaza merely to allay the agitation of those who do not have Israel's best interests at heart, or of those who hunger for a quick victory.

The only legitimate pressure for Israel to invade Gaza comes from the continued suffering of its own citizens at the hands of the missiles fired by the Islamofascist Terrorist Entity in Gaza. And even that pressure must not be allowed to trump the overriding need to fight the war to a successful conclusion, no matter how long that may take.

The war on terror is not a conventional war, and it should not surprise us to see Israel use unconventional tactics, including psychological warfare and special ops.

420 Bubblehead II  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:03:03am

Morning all. Looks like the Israelis got another hamas asshole last night.

IAF strikes third senior Hamas operative

Following the air strikes, a Hamas spokesman announced that al-Jamal was killed in the attack. He was the third senior operative in the group to be targeted in the past three days.

421 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:03:26am

re: #417 Dar ul Harb

How does the chinless ophthalmologist (hey, check out the first hit in a Google search for "chinless ophthalmologist"! Heh.) get by with harboring a known terrorist leader, anyway?

Image: 2264645563_17e7eaef76.jpg

422 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:04:48am

re: #420 Bubblehead II

Morning all. Looks like the Israelis got another hamas asshole last night.

IAF strikes third senior Hamas operative

Following the air strikes, a Hamas spokesman announced that al-Jamal was killed in the attack. He was the third senior operative in the group to be targeted in the past three days.

His 72 Virgin Goats are on back order...

423 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:08:18am

I wonder if islam is planning on making a deal with the chinese over all the girl child deaths as a means to increase their supply of virgins in the afterlife to cover all these "heroes of Islam" that are finding their way to the afterlife.re: #422 Dustyvet

424 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:12:31am

Bully Pulpit Watch...

Pres. Bush places the blame for the Gaza war squarely on Hamas, and for the first time in about a week the BBC drops the story from top spot to a lower position, as per this writing.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Shades of Iraq where it's news as long as it makes America (read Western civilization and values) look bad, and it's not news when it makes the bad guys look bad.

425 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:12:32am

Minnesotta recount complete Franken(stein) won by 49 votes and it only took finding a box of uncounted ballots in an officials trunk. Top GoP senator plans a Fillibuster to block him.(not something I advocate since all legal reecourses have been taken seat the bastard and use him in 2010 to help take some seats back.) Berris may be refused a seat as well(blago's appointment).

426 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:13:40am

Oddball


Youtube Video
427 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:15:05am

re: #419 Spare O'Lake

I suspect that your pronouncement that the IAF has run out of pre-planned aerial targets is well-intentioned, but you will forgive me if I do not take your word for it. Moreover, I am sure you would agree that Gaza is a target-rich environment and that the IAF is perfectly capable of acquiring additional targets as may be necessary.

Diplomacy gains steam in Gaza crisis

There were tentative signs that the current phase of fighting may be nearing an end. Most of the airstrikes targeted empty buildings and abandoned sites, suggesting Israel may be running out of targets.

/unless they get actionable intelligence, they're just rearranging rubble now

428 Bubblehead II  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:15:43am

re: #422 Dustyvet


Youtube Video


Send in the Clones

429 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:18:15am

re: #425 Rustler

Minnesotta recount complete Franken(stein) won by 49 votes

/gee, guess they don't have to recount the "wrongfully rejected" absentee ballots today, like they were planning on, nevermind the election contest lawsuit that will be filed next week

430 summergurl  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:19:46am

Morning Lizards-

That chicken dinosaur pic startled me - let me go refill my coffee cup

431 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:20:04am

re: #418 Salamantis

The same way he got by with harboring Imad Mugniyeh - until he had to sample some of his own car bomb wares.

Classic Movie Line #28

Youtube Video
432 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:20:07am

re: #98 mattm

OT

Oregon Proposed require GPS receivers in cars to tax based on miles driven, but don't worry they won't use it to track you.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

All they need to do is periodically read your odometer (the same way the water company can read your meter, etc.), perhaps when your car is inspected, emissions tested, or the registration is renewed.

Taxation by miles driven is a moronic idea (as are most taxes and Lord knows we don't need even more), and it certainly does not require a mandatory GPS.

433 summergurl  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:22:30am

re: #425 Rustler

Minnesotta recount complete Franken(stein) won by 49 votes and it only took finding a box of uncounted ballots in an officials trunk. Top GoP senator plans a Fillibuster to block him.(not something I advocate since all legal reecourses have been taken seat the bastard and use him in 2010 to help take some seats back.) Berris may be refused a seat as well(blago's appointment).


Yes - it should be interesting next Tuesday if Burris tries to take a seat. They are planning on physically blocking him from entering - bet Al Sharpton will be there to pontificate.

434 Bubblehead II  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:23:21am

Another candidate for this years Darwin award.

German Soldier Clad Student Fatally Shot by Police

*snip*

Miles Murphy, a University of Washington senior, was shot several times at his apartment early Thursday after police said he pointed a rifle affixed with a bayonet at officers and refused orders to drop the weapon.

*snip*

A witness told some officers at the scene that Murphy had been firing blanks that night.

Idiot

435 Bubblehead II  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:24:50am

Well it's that time again. See ya all tomorrow morning.

L8R

436 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:25:03am

re: #434 Bubblehead II
A case of murphy meeting darwin isn't that like a collision of matter and antimatter.

437 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:25:24am

re: #151 Rustler

Problem is red hair is a result of 2 or 3 seperate recessive genes thru multiple chromosomes.

Who cares? There's always red hair dye if you're that color fixated.

438 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:25:46am

re: #428 Bubblehead II


Send in the Clones
Youtube Video
439 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:27:01am

re: #437 JamesTKirk Someone had asked why red hair was going extinct. I was just explaining the why of it. It's not really going extinct but rather is becoming rarer and rarer due to the difficulty in manifesting the color.

440 formercorpsman  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:27:36am

re: #425 Rustler

You know, I agree. Norm Coleman seems like a great guy.

But for those of us who recognize the current situation of the Democrats in power is akin to Prader-Willi being locked up in the Hershey factory, we must let this situation fester.

I don't think there is any way, we will have a serious return to the origins of our Constitution unless we are allowed to taste unbridled taxation & legislation.

It is almost a generation removed now.

441 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:28:39am

re: #437 JamesTKirk

Who cares? There's always red hair dye if you're that color fixated.

It's a tragic tale that plays out countless times every day on re-runs of classic Star Trek. Captain Kirk & Co. beam down to an alien planet. They come under attack by some malevolent energy being or dudes in rubber suits. Security crewmen wearing red shirts get vaporized, stabbed and poisoned by booby-trapped flowers.

Being a "Red Shirt" on the USS Enterprise is one of the most dangerous jobs in any (imaginary) military. Don't believe me? SiteLogic founder Matt Bailey crunched the numbers: 13.7% of Kirk's crew died during their three-year televised mission. 73% of the deaths were Red Shirts.

What might save Red Shirts' lives?

442 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:29:43am

re: #441 Dustyvet

It's a tragic tale that plays out countless times every day on re-runs of classic Star Trek. Captain Kirk & Co. beam down to an alien planet. They come under attack by some malevolent energy being or dudes in rubber suits. Security crewmen wearing red shirts get vaporized, stabbed and poisoned by booby-trapped flowers.

Being a "Red Shirt" on the USS Enterprise is one of the most dangerous jobs in any (imaginary) military. Don't believe me? SiteLogic founder Matt Bailey crunched the numbers: 13.7% of Kirk's crew died during their three-year televised mission. 73% of the deaths were Red Shirts.

What might save Red Shirts' lives?

Image: insp_expendability.jpg

443 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:31:06am

re: #441 Dustyvet
I loved the red shirt portion of the movie Galaxy Quest.

444 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:34:34am

re: #427 Killian Bundy

/unless they get actionable intelligence, they're just rearranging rubble now

Your source is MSNBC, quoting an AP article?
I suggest you read the first (factual) paragraph of the article and tell me please how it squares with the second (bullshit) paragraph which you quoted. Here it is:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli warplanes and gunboats blasted more than two dozen Hamas targets Saturday, including weapons storage facilities, training centers and leaders' homes as Israel's offensive against Gaza's Islamic militant rulers entered a second week.

There were tentative signs that the current phase of fighting may be nearing an end. Most of the airstrikes targeted empty buildings and abandoned sites, suggesting Israel may be running out of targets.

The article goes on to detail a large number of excellent targets which IAF struck today. It also refers to psy-ops.

Please do not stoop to cherry-picking MSM idiocy out of context to try to bolster your unfounded claim.

445 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:37:43am

re: #441 Dustyvet

It's a tragic tale that plays out countless times every day on re-runs of classic Star Trek. Captain Kirk & Co. beam down to an alien planet. They come under attack by some malevolent energy being or dudes in rubber suits. Security crewmen wearing red shirts get vaporized, stabbed and poisoned by booby-trapped flowers.

Being a "Red Shirt" on the USS Enterprise is one of the most dangerous jobs in any (imaginary) military. Don't believe me? SiteLogic founder Matt Bailey crunched the numbers: 13.7% of Kirk's crew died during their three-year televised mission. 73% of the deaths were Red Shirts.

What might save Red Shirts' lives?

[Link: www.sitelogicmarketing.com...]

446 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:38:36am

re: #442 Dustyvet

[Link: blog.wired.com...]

I need to get one of these.

447 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:38:58am

re: #443 Rustler

I loved the red shirt portion of the movie Galaxy Quest.

Galaxy Quest was definitely one of the best Star Trek movies ever made.

448 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:42:06am

re: #447 JamesTKirk

Galaxy Quest was definitely one of the best Star Trek movies ever made.

3 Dings...:)

449 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:43:14am

re: #447 JamesTKirk Yeah something about the red shirt surviving to become a named character on the show just tickled a nerve in me the right nerve too. Tho its more a spoof than a movie made in the same vein.

450 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:44:49am

re: #102 lostlakehiker

Oh, but wait wait. Humans are physical creatures of the real world, and as such, evolution applies to us too.

I've always believed that the whole world evolves around me.

451 Cdat88  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:44:51am

re: #422 Dustyvet

I always thought it was 72 Sturgeons which is even more disgusting. If that is possible.

452 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:45:40am

re: #451 Cdat88

I always thought it was 72 Sturgeons which is even more disgusting. If that is possible.

There on back order as well...:)

453 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:45:48am

re: #449 Rustler

Yeah something about the red shirt surviving to become a named character on the show just tickled a nerve in me the right nerve too. Tho its more a spoof than a movie made in the same vein.

It's definitely a spoof in parts, yes; but its heart is in the right place, too.

454 Cdat88  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:47:35am

On the redshirt point...


Ensign Ricky

455 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:48:30am

re: #362 Salamantis

Please show me my ad hominems, and demonstrate their purported falsity. By definition, ad hominems have to be non-factual.

Not even remotely true. "Argumentum ad hominem" merely means that you are attacking the man rather than attacking his argument.

456 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:49:09am

re: #444 Spare O'Lake

Please do not stoop to cherry-picking MSM idiocy out of context to try to bolster your unfounded claim.

Fox news also quoted Israeli sources several times yesterday saying that Israel had exhausted all her preplanned targets. Sorry I can't link TV reports.

/but hey, believe what you want, meanwhile the mortars/rockets keep on coming, deeper into Israel as time goes on

457 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:51:53am

re: #455 JamesTKirk

Not even remotely true. "Argumentum ad hominem" merely means that you are attacking the man rather than attacking his argument.

Yo' Mama.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

458 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:52:21am

re: #453 JamesTKirk

It's definitely a spoof in parts, yes; but its heart is in the right place, too.

Youtube Video
459 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:53:28am

re: #454 Cdat88
See 442 above

460 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:54:55am

I don't know if this has been posted.

Roland Burris, the Democrat Blago has named senator to replace Obama has already built his own tomb...

[Link: www.politico.com...]

He thinks he's a pharaoh.

461 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 4:59:11am

re: #456 Killian Bundy

Fox news also quoted Israeli sources several times yesterday saying that Israel had exhausted all her preplanned targets. Sorry I can't link TV reports.

/but hey, believe what you want, meanwhile the mortars/rockets keep on coming, deeper into Israel as time goes on

I have faith that the IDF knows what it is doing and that the IAF has and can continue to acquire lots and lots of Hamas targets. It is you who pretends that the legitimate aerial war is over.
/but hey.../

462 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:00:03am

re: #460 Luigi Thats ok Obama is gonna take Burris' example and create jobs by employing 5000 impovershed Americans to build his burial monument. Remember me!

463 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:02:46am

re: #460 Luigi

I don't know if this has been posted.

Roland Burris, the Democrat Blago has named senator to replace Obama has already built his own tomb...

[Link: www.politico.com...]

He thinks he's a pharaoh.

Only in frigging Illinois...WHERE THE DEAD VOTE, AND VOTE OFTEN. I'd be willing to bet, if voter registration cards where checked, we'd find Robert Stroud "The Bird Man of Alcatraz" who's buried in Metropolis, Illinois on the voter rolls in this state, along with Al Capone.

464 Macker  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:03:03am

Mutter mutter mumble mumble....

465 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:03:38am

re: #462 Rustler

Thats ok Obama is gonna take Burris' example and create jobs by employing 5000 impovershed Americans to build his burial monument. Remember me!

That's it! This is the sort of public works projects we need..

Image: 7wonders-pyramid-NGK0408-lg.jpg

466 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:04:59am

It'll get us in good with the Arabs.

467 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:07:29am

re: #461 Spare O'Lake

I have faith that the IDF knows what it is doing and that the IAF has and can continue to acquire lots and lots of Hamas targets. It is you who pretends that the legitimate aerial war is over.
/but hey.../

I didn't say it was over. I said they exhausted their preplanned targets. I'll also say that continuing airstrikes against targets of opportunity aren't going to break Hamas and/or stop the mortars/rockets.

/pick another strategy because airstrikes alone ain't gonna get 'r done

468 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:07:35am

Yeah a glorious monument stretching to the Mesosphere of Obama would do well to occupy his 8-10 years of presidency.

469 Cdat88  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:08:07am

re: #459 Rustler

Dang, too slow again... :)

470 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:09:11am

re: #467 Killian Bundy
Yeah I was gonna make that point for ya exhausting preplanned target =/ to the air war being over. Rearranging the rubble helps too tho bud means that the rubble doesn't become a new fighting position.

471 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:09:56am

re: #469 Cdat88
Yeah welcome to my world I'm usually like 40 posts behind tho.

472 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:11:43am

re: #468 Rustler

Yeah a glorious monument stretching to the Mesosphere of Obama would do well to occupy his 8-10 years of presidency...

...of these fifty-seven United States.

473 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:12:09am

re: #455 JamesTKirk

Not even remotely true. "Argumentum ad hominem" merely means that you are attacking the man rather than attacking his argument.

True enough. I should have said false ad hominems.

474 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:13:52am

re: #471 Rustler

Yeah welcome to my world I'm usually like 40 posts behind tho.

Ramming Speed!...:)

Youtube Video
475 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:13:54am

re: #473 Salamantis

True enough. I should have said false ad hominems.

But by saying "all false ad hominems are false", you're merely resorting to circular logic.

/believe me, I hear all about logic from a certain pointy-eared friend.

Youtube Video
476 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:14:16am

re: #474 Dustyvet

Ramming Speed!...:)


[Video]

Ludicrous Speed!

477 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:15:10am

re: #467 Killian Bundy

I didn't say it was over. I said they exhausted their preplanned targets. I'll also say that continuing airstrikes against targets of opportunity aren't going to break Hamas and/or stop the mortars/rockets.

/pick another strategy because airstrikes alone ain't gonna get 'r done

Patience, my friend.
All is proceeding according to plan.
There will be ground ops when the time is right.
In the meantime Hamas continues to be relentlessly degraded and killed from the air and the sea.

478 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:15:14am

I'm still disappointed noone bit on my 409 above hehe.

479 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:16:11am

re: #476 JamesTKirk
Suck, suck, suck No shes been reset to blow.

480 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:18:09am

AFK a few letting laptop recharge a few while I walk around and see if any guests need assistance.

481 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:19:47am

re: #479 Rustler

Suck, suck, suck No shes been reset to blow.

Familiar with the Firefly theme song? Combine that and Mega-Maid...

Image: my.php?image=serenityballskr8.jpg

482 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:20:18am

re: #475 JamesTKirk

But by saying "all false ad hominems are false", you're merely resorting to circular logic.

/believe me, I hear all about logic from a certain pointy-eared friend.

Youtube Video

I'm NOT engaging in tautology. I'm not only admitting I was wrong in identifying ad hominems as necessarily non-factual, and agreeing with you that ad hominem is the fallacy of attacking the arguer rather than the argument, I am also stating, once again in agreement with you, that some ad hominem attacks are indeed true (although irrelevant to the argument), as if one tries to refute a valid logical point that John Wayne Gacy makes by simply calling him a serial-killing, child-raping clown. If all ad hominem attacks were indeed false, the adjectival modifier 'false' would be superfluous.

483 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:22:46am

Looks like PBS is redoing Cyrano. I may watch it the Story of Cyrano Debergarech is pretty compelling. I wonder if it will do better than steve martins version.

484 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:23:08am

re: #482 Salamantis

I'm NOT engaging in tautology. I'm not only admitting I was wrong in identifying ad hominems as necessarily non-factual, and agreeing with you that ad hominem is the fallacy of attacking the arguer rather than the argument, I am also stating, once again in agreement with you, that some ad hominem attacks are indeed true (although irrelevant to the argument), as if one tries to refute a valid logical point that John Wayne Gacy makes by simply calling him a serial-killing, child-raping clown. If all ad hominem attacks were indeed false, the adjectival modifier 'false' would be superfluous.

John Wayne Gacy, while waiting for execution was allowed to paint and then sell his paintings by the Great State of Illinois.

485 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:23:08am

re: #483 Rustler

Looks like PBS is redoing Cyrano. I may watch it the Story of Cyrano Debergarech is pretty compelling. I wonder if it will do better than steve martins version.

It'll win by a nose.

486 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:23:48am

re: #485 JamesTKirk

It'll win by a nose.

Nose puns at this hour...:)

487 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:23:57am

Did you ever notice that John Wayne Gacy was always and only referred to as John Wayne Gacy and never as John Gacy. I'll bet if his name was Jimmy Carter Gacy the press would have called him Jimmy Gacy.

It's the culture war. On us.

488 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:24:08am

Oh, and JamesTKirk, I also updinged the post in which you initially pointed out my definitional error.

489 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:24:32am

re: #486 Dustyvet

Nose puns at this hour...:)

'Snot funny?

490 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:25:15am

re: #489 JamesTKirk

'Snot funny?

setting phaser on hurt real bad...:)

491 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:25:56am

re: #490 Dustyvet

setting phaser on hurt real bad...:)

Here put this Red Shirt on please....

492 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:26:26am

re: #487 Luigi
Woulda called him James Gacy

493 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:27:32am

re: #461 Spare O'Lake

I have faith that the IDF knows what it is doing and that the IAF has and can continue to acquire lots and lots of Hamas targets. It is you who pretends that the legitimate aerial war is over.
/but hey.../

The Govt. call the shots not the IDF and there is growing criticism as to what the Govt's exit strategy is?
Gov't can't make up its mind

494 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:27:57am

re: #487 Luigi

Did you ever notice that John Wayne Gacy was always and only referred to as John Wayne Gacy and never as John Gacy. I'll bet if his name was Jimmy Carter Gacy the press would have called him Jimmy Gacy.

It's the culture war. On us.

Notorious killers usually have three names. I saw a list someone had compiled once.
John Wilkes Booth, James Earl Ray, Lee Harvey Oswald, et al.

Why do we not know John Hinkley's middle name? Because Reagan lived.

495 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:28:37am

re: #490 Dustyvet

setting phaser on hurt real bad...:)

Not my fault I'm deviated.

/Nobody nose the tribbles I've seen...

496 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:28:42am

re: #482 Salamantis

Is it not true that many arguments are not arguments, but simply statements of belief (faith?) couched in circular logic (EG. If we stopped bombing them they wouldn't attack us....so much).

When that situation becomes clear ad hominems become the only recourse other than ignoring. The latter invariably being taken as losing the argument.

497 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:28:54am

re: #477 Spare O'Lake

Patience, my friend.
All is proceeding according to plan.
There will be ground ops when the time is right.
In the meantime Hamas continues to be relentlessly degraded and killed from the air and the sea.

They've got exactly the rest of the weekend to commence a ground component or forget about it. The cease fire/hudna diplomacy hammer comes down hard Monday morning.

/the acting Hamas leadership remains defiant, riding out the airstrikes in underground bunkers, ordering daily rocket attacks and waiting to draw Israeli troops and vehicles on top of large mines and in range of Russian Kornet AT rockets, and urban warfare CQC

498 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:29:19am

re: #491 Dustyvet

Here put this Red Shirt on please....

I generally avoid red shirts as a matter of principle.

499 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:29:30am

re: #495 JamesTKirk

Not my fault I'm deviated.

/Nobody nose the tribbles I've seen...

*Thud*

500 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:29:53am

re: #494 JamesTKirk

Notorious killers usually have three names.

Adolf Elizabeth Hitler

501 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:30:18am

I could have chosen say, Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy as serial killers, but picked John Wayne Gacy because I used him in a poem I wrote (I also note that the others were neither child rapists nor clowns):

Evil Clown

He wears those flappy floppy shoes
And those billowy bright clothes
And a big red ball like Rudolph’s
Perched on the tip of his nose
He sports those huge and shiny teeth
Which resemble piano keys
And a massive string of handkerchiefs
To catch his clowny sneeze
He wears a bulky jacket
Filled with all kinds of tricks
Which he whips out with his fat white hands
As he plays his clowny shtick
He has a flower tucked into
His much too wide lapel
If you get too close to smell it
He’ll drench you all to hell
And he wears a buzzer in his palm
That shocks you when you shake
And a bucket of confetti
That over your head he’ll rake
He drives around in his weird little car
With his loud brass honky horn
And is always either smiling
Or else comically forlorn
He has that frizzy hair that floats
Around his balding head
With his whole face hued fish belly white
He looks more than faintly dead
Under piles of pancake makeup
Caked from forehead down to throat
And all his features are painted on
In suffocating coats
You can never tell what he’s thinking
Or exactly what he’ll do
But if you do it with him
The joke will be on you
If you chance to meet him
Beware what he’s about
For Clowny just might getcha
Ifnya don’t watch out
The chap is vaguely sinister
With his creepy clowny grin
And those beady little clowny eyes
That threaten to suck you in
He's positively eerie
Some have dreaded to behold
His spooky painted visage
Since they were two years old
Some kids from the beginning
See him as a Boogey Man
And who’s to say that they’re not right
If he’s more than their dreams can stand?
Hollywood knows he’s chilling
It doesn’t surprise a bit
That when Stephen King needed a monster
He made an evil clown IT
Some people think it’s funny
That other folks fear clowns
But remember John Wayne Gacy:
Guard up, and comments down.

502 akak  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:31:04am

re: #493 Westward Ho

The Govt. call the shots not the IDF and there is growing criticism as to what the Govt's exit strategy is?
Gov't can't make up its mind

Someone suggested deliberately keeping the end game vague & undefined, would let them continue - which may be a good idea!

503 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:31:06am

re: #499 Dustyvet

*Thud*

That's it, I'm calling up my buddies at the casa nostril and sending hit men after you.

504 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:31:50am

re: #501 Salamantis

My wife is a coulrophobe, and often cites Gacy as a reason.

505 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:31:54am

re: #496 Naso Tang

Is it not true that many arguments are not arguments, but simply statements of belief (faith?) couched in circular logic (EG. If we stopped bombing them they wouldn't attack us....so much).

When that situation becomes clear ad hominems become the only recourse other than ignoring. The latter invariably being taken as losing the argument.

Yeah, ad hominem is the last resort of those who lack a legitimate argumentative leg to stand on.

506 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:33:36am

You shoulda' made it rhyme..

acey, basey, bracey, bracy, caissie, casey, dacey, dacy, daisey, facey, facie, gacy, gracey, gracie, gracy, lacey, lacy, macey, macy, pacey, racey, spacey, stacey, stacy, tacey, tacy, tracey, tracie, tracy, treacy

[Link: www.rhymezone.com...]

507 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:36:08am

Has Rancher been avoiding Posting since I got my own nic?

508 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:38:25am

re: #507 Rustler

Has Rancher been avoiding Posting since I got my own nic?

/sun's almost up, give him a call

509 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:38:34am

re: #507 Rustler

Has Rancher been avoiding Posting since I got my own nic?

Good Morning..Rancher was here yesterday

510 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:38:41am

Day 8

The least surprising fact about the war so far are great truths that belie everything Hamas says- Hamas believes that with enough "resistance" (terror) Israeli's will can break and her end of administration government will bow to international pressure and quit. Now it is VERY important to point out that Hamas is a religious organization whose leaders have asserted this war as a religious obligation to their people and predicted that their victory is guaranteed and contained in the Holy Word itself.

So what happens when they don't win? Not to put too fine a point on it but Mohamed's greatest victories saw him overcome superior forces, why are these nice folks, with red beards, just like their favorite desert dweller, not blessed with the prophesied victory? Hamas' Charter declares the devineness of their methods, they say they use Islamic methods to destroy Israel, they even have a Shura council (just like al Qaeda) so why no blessed victory? Its is no surprise to us but, to Hamas and Islamists, defeat is a major setback and it is a triple humiliation because the "Noble" Koran has some pretty harsh things to say about Jews, things that do no eschatologically square with the existence of Israel, to say nothing of world upside down things like Jihadis in complete conformance with the prophet's words getting gunned down like dogs in humiliating defeat.

Now we all know that the Master who created the world can can flick his finger and destroy the world He made. If decreed, Israel will cease to exist, cosmology takes over on a grand scale and poof, no more Israel. But for Jihadis, the failure of Jihad against Israel is the seminal backbreaker of our times. If billions can't whoop up on a few million Jews in a tiny sliver of land, the whole ideological ship of the faith is at risk of going under. Israel is physically and politically isolated, the US is the only true friend she has. Europe expresses indifferent support of Israel, at best the rest of the world uses Israel as its whipping boy. The real shocker in it all are the Egyptians and the Saudis (the Saudis!) cutting the cord to Hamas (after a decade and more of pushing their legitimacy on Israel and the West). But it is clearly what has happened. We also know why: the only thing getting vile regimes like the Saudis and Mubaraks to side is the double threat of internal Muslim Brotherhood insurrection and external Iranian regional hegemony. When their power is at risk, out of character alliances and silence follows.

Condi Rice unintentionally did Israel a huge service when the US State Department stopped backing Lebanon's March 14th Movement against Syria, Hezbollah and Iran: the Saudis and Egyptians realized the US can be a fickle ally and the only major power with an absolute vested interest in seeing the MB/Iran fail in the region is Israel. In the context of the current fight, thank you Dr. Rice, profound thanks. You created doubt in regional leaders who care more about staying in power than Hamas and Gaza getting an object lesson in modern military science.

So with that backdrop, it looks like the ground war is coming within a couple of days. It looks like any ground operation will be protected by a US guaranteed UNSC veto, so the tanks roll, and Hamas' will look back to her glory days of 2007 and wonder how she let her little empire go down, why didn't they hold fire until they were really armed and why didn't they wait until Obama was President and Iran could back them with the Bomb? Why didn't they just shoot guns over the border? Hamas, you can ponder and debate these great questions in Hell.

The skies over Gaza are clearing; Israel is going to unleash the big steel dogs.

Let us hope for a swift sure victory for the Children of Israel and let our son in captivity, Gilad Shalit, come home to us (and whoever decided to cut the tunnels out of Gaza with deep penetrator bombs should get a promotion, it prevented Shalit from being carried out to Sinai).

Believe in the Victory!

511 golly_wog  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:39:27am

re: #507 Rustler

Has Rancher been avoiding Posting since I got my own nic?

I think he is out forming a posse to come after you. Better re-brand his cattle.

512 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:39:50am

re: #504 JamesTKirk

My wife is a coulrophobe, and often cites Gacy as a reason.

This girl I know told me that she was clownophobic, so I wrote the poem to amuse her. Instead, when she read it, she blanched and gasped, broke into a cold sweat, and told me it was very good, and that she would never read it again. I hadn't paused to consider that it could have invoked her phobic terror.

Her horrified reaction made me regret ever showing it to her.

513 akak  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:42:37am

If Condi is saying it won't end soon, that should be very indicative of the timline for the oppressed she wishes to free.

514 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:42:51am

re: #502 akak

Israel will be under tremendous diplomatic pressure next week and there are reports that she may be considering a deal with the EU for a lebanon style UN peacekeeping force.

515 golly_wog  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:42:51am

re: #512 Salamantis

Her horrified reaction made me regret ever showing it to her.

I guess "honking Bobo's nose" is now out of the question.

516 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:43:09am

re: #512 Salamantis

re: #504 JamesTKirk

My wife is a coulrophobe, and often cites Gacy as a reason.

This girl I know told me that she was clownophobic

Coulrophobe is the correct term for fear of clowns.

My wife is able to watch and enjoy things like Stephen King's It, as well as Killer Klowns from Outer Space, which portray "the true evil nature of clowns".

517 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:45:24am

re: #516 JamesTKirk

Coulrophobe is the correct term for fear of clowns.

My wife is able to watch and enjoy things like Stephen King's It, as well as Killer Klowns from Outer Space, which portray "the true evil nature of clowns".


I thought crusty the clown was the ultimate evil clown.

518 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:45:54am

re: #493 Westward Ho

The Govt. call the shots not the IDF and there is growing criticism as to what the Govt's exit strategy is?
Gov't can't make up its mind

Eiland is a back-biting has-been.

"There is a time for dispute and a time for unity. Now is the time for unity. If our enemies thought we would not be united under their rocket threat they were mistaken".
- B. Netanyahu

519 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:46:17am

re: #516 JamesTKirk
KCFOS had best use of cotton candy ever.

520 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:47:14am

January 3rd, 2009

Summary of Overnight Events

During the night, the IAF attacked a vehicle in which Mamduq Jammal was driving. Jammal is a Hamas battalion commander who is also involved in rocket launching and is in charge of the rocket launching squads in the Gaza City area.

Other Hamas terrorist targets attacked by IAF aircraft during the night:

· A college building in El-Atatra used by Hamas for terrorist purposes. The college was a base for firing rockets at Israeli communities and was also used as a place of hiding and rocket assembly by Hamas operatives.

· The house of Hamas terror operative Ismail Renam in Bet-Lehiya, northern Gaza Strip, which functioned as a weaponry storage, specifically for rocket launching equipment. Renam has a central role in the launching of Grad type rockets against Israel.

· The house of Azadin Hadad, a Hamas terror operative in Gaza City, that was used to orchestrate terror activity and as a meeting place for terror operatives. Hadad is the head of the Hamas military group in Eastern Gaza city.

· A vehicle from which a Hamas operative loaded weapons into a storage place in Nuseirat.

The Israeli Navy also took part in the attacks, targeting a number of Hamas outposts, training camps and rocket launching sites.

Overall, more than 25 Hamas and other terrorist sites were attacked since yesterday evening. The forces reported accurate hits. All of the Israeli forces returned to their bases safely.

The IDF will continue to persistently strike any site used in Hamas’ terrorist effort and will not cease acting against all terror organizations and those who actively support them.


[Link: idfspokesperson.com...]

521 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:47:36am

re: #506 Luigi

You shoulda' made it rhyme..

acey, basey, bracey, bracy, caissie, casey, dacey, dacy, daisey, facey, facie, gacy, gracey, gracie, gracy, lacey, lacy, macey, macy, pacey, racey, spacey, stacey, stacy, tacey, tacy, tracey, tracie, tracy, treacy

[Link: www.rhymezone.com...]

Pursuant to your well-founded objection, here is the modified final quatrain:

Some people think it’s spacey
That other folks fear clowns
But remember John Wayne Gacy:
Guard up, and comments down.

522 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:48:03am

re: #510 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

IMO a ground component is necessary if Israel's ever going to hope to achieve the Cast Lead operational objective of stopping the mortars/rockets. Of course that means Israel will lose vehicles, take casualties, and risk soldiers being captured by Hamas.

/is Kadima up for it?

523 lifeofthemind  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:48:03am

Good morning. It occurred to me that if those ineligible to vote were seriously excluded then elections in this country would be completely different. I am referring to non-citizens, felons, and the certifiably insane. At one time Wards of the State (Paupers or Welfare) did not have the franchise and I can think of no good reason why they should. In fact I would think that employees of the government, except for enlisted members of the armed forces and officers mobilized for temporary duty, should not be given the vote. Now that would be evolutionary.

524 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:48:42am

re: #519 Rustler

KCFOS had best use of cotton candy ever.

Me (flipping channels):
"Oh look, it's Killer Klowns from Outer Space!"
Blonde:
"What's it about?
Me (explaining the obvious slowly):
"It's about clowns... from outer space... who kill people."

525 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:51:28am

re: #524 JamesTKirk Sad things is the Clowns from KCFOS aren't nearly as scarey as many I've seen walking the streets.

526 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:52:01am

re: #510 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

very nice..thanks for that

527 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:52:18am

re: #525 Rustler

Sad things is the Clowns from KCFOS aren't nearly as scarey as many I've seen walking the streets.

Or appearing on C-Span with a (D) after their name.

528 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:53:24am

re: #497 Killian Bundy

They've got exactly the rest of the weekend to commence a ground component or forget about it. The cease fire/hudna diplomacy hammer comes down hard Monday morning.

/the acting Hamas leadership remains defiant, riding out the airstrikes in underground bunkers, ordering daily rocket attacks and waiting to draw Israeli troops and vehicles on top of large mines and in range of Russian Kornet AT rockets, and urban warfare CQC

Oh I get it now.
You have your shorts in a knot for an immediate ground operation in order to maximize Israeli casualties and because you are afraid that Hamas will agree to a ceasefire.
What is the matter with you?

529 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:53:26am

re: #523 lifeofthemind

Good morning. It occurred to me that if those ineligible to vote were seriously excluded then elections in this country would be completely different. I am referring to non-citizens, felons, and the certifiably insane. At one time Wards of the State (Paupers or Welfare) did not have the franchise and I can think of no good reason why they should. In fact I would think that employees of the government, except for enlisted members of the armed forces and officers mobilized for temporary duty, should not be given the vote. Now that would be evolutionary.

You want to take the franchise away from (even part of) the military? Good luck with that.

530 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:53:32am

re: #527 JamesTKirk
Well i was referring to street clowns not the political clowns : P.

531 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:55:15am

re: #528 Spare O'Lake
He doesn't want to maximize Israeli casualties. He believes that mounting international pressure is likely to force a ceasefire sometime Monday. He would like Israel to maximise the damage they inflict on Hamas in htat timeframe.

532 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:56:54am

morning all

533 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:57:18am

re: #532 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Good Day Jewels

534 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:57:19am

re: #528 Spare O'Lake

Oh I get it now.
You have your shorts in a knot for an immediate ground operation in order to maximize Israeli casualties and because you are afraid that Hamas will agree to a ceasefire.
What is the matter with you?

Because agreeing to a cease fire would be tantamount to a loss for Israel.

First, because Hamas does not and never has actually ceased to fire when a cease fire is in effect (but when Israel shoots back, they are the ones always blamed for breaking the fictitious cease fire), and second because it will merely take the pressure off of Hamas and allow them to regroup and rearm. It will accomplish absolutely nothing positive for Israel in either the short or the long term.

Israel needs to have a clear goal for this action, and they should cease firing once they've accomplished it.

535 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:57:50am

re: #515 golly_wog

Her horrified reaction made me regret ever showing it to her.

I guess "honking Bobo's nose" is now out of the question.

Clowns and witches are two of our most deeply held archetypes; clowns because they can passive-aggressively conceal stinging truths in innocent-seeming humor, and witches because they can lure us into mortal danger with well-feigned kindness.

I also think that there's an interesting contrast to be made between the two chief mythological monsters, vampires and werewolves. Both seem to me to be based upon different archetypes: werewolves are rapists, while vampires are seducers. Werewolves are brutal, un-self-controlled ravening beasts, while vampires are intelligent, skillful, charismatic and mesmerizing manipulators.

536 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:59:05am

whats news this morning. Personally, I think the IDF needs to keep rolling on and crush Hamas and it's supporters utterly

537 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:01:29am

re: #536 Jewels (AKA Julian)

whats news this morning. Personally, I think the IDF needs to keep rolling on and crush Hamas and it's supporters utterly

I really don't think we'd react well to IDF bombing college campuses and other Democratic strongholds within the borders of the USA.

P.S. Lose the apostrophe.

538 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:03:21am

re: #528 Spare O'Lake

Oh I get it now.
You have your shorts in a knot for an immediate ground operation in order to maximize Israeli casualties and because you are afraid that Hamas will agree to a ceasefire.
What is the matter with you?

Yeah, river to the sea, I hate Israel, that's me!

/and no, you don't get it

539 leftover54  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:04:24am

re: #13 Danderfoot

Happy New Year and all I gots to say is:

The ONLY clock that matters...

oh, and I guess the countdown to the impending strike(s) somewhere above a reinforced concrete funnel looking thingy east of the Mediterranean... coming to a new thread, sometime soon.

just sayin'

540 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:06:03am

morning rustler re: #533 Rustler

541 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:07:14am

Israel's biggest problem is going to be Barrack Hussein Obama and the meddlesome weak-willed dogooders he's surrounded himself with.

He needed to come out immediately in support of Israel and their fight against hamas. He's said nothing. This bodes very badly for Israel.

542 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:08:23am

re: #531 Rustler

He doesn't want to maximize Israeli casualties. He believes that mounting international pressure is likely to force a ceasefire sometime Monday. He would like Israel to maximise the damage they inflict on Hamas in htat timeframe.

First it was because the "pre-planned targets" were exhausted.
Now it's because Bush will force a ceasefire down Israel's throat on Monday when Bush says the opposite.
I am not interested in arguing on the delusional basis that there will be a ceasefire on Monday, especially when Hamas has rejected it by attaching a number of idiotic conditions.
Israel will go into Gaza on the ground as and when necessary, according to its plan.
Patience and iron resolve is the order of the day.

543 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:08:54am

Good morning y'all - from a coolish and damp (39 degrees,going up to 56 degress) foggy and overcast
Charlotte!
How are you all doing?

544 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:09:33am

Geepers,

Don'tcha mean Jimmy Carter Mk II ?

545 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:10:30am

re: #541 Geepers

Israel's biggest problem is going to be Barrack Hussein Obama and the meddlesome weak-willed dogooders he's surrounded himself with.

He needed to come out immediately in support of Israel and their fight against hamas. He's said nothing. This bodes very badly for Israel.


how could anyone expect anything else? he bodes badly for the american way.

546 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:10:39am

re: #541 Geepers
Hey Geepers! How are you my friend? Say,could y'all do me a favor and send me an e-mail cause the one I have for you doesn't seem to work anymore!
Hope you're doing well and had a Happy New Years eve and that you have a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

547 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:10:42am

re: #537 JamesTKirk

I really don't think we'd react well to IDF bombing college campuses and other Democratic strongholds within the borders of the USA.

P.S. Lose the apostrophe.

You equate Gaza to the USA?
Unfuckingbelieveable.

548 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:11:02am

Good Morning.

There is a very good chance the Gov Rod Blagojevich will be impeached and tossed out of office next Tuesday.

Blagojevich loses classified security access

Officials Friday said the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has revoked Gov. Rod Blagojevich's access to classified federal security information.

Blagojevich spokesman Lucio Guerrero called the move "pretty standard procedure" Friday. He says there are still a number of other state officials with access.

Also Friday, Illinois House Speaker Michael Madigan said he is calling lawmakers back to Springfield next week for a possible vote on impeaching Blagojevich.

549 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:11:09am

re: #543 realwest
morning RW my friend, all is well?

550 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:11:25am

Yemeni Jews forced to flee village

The Yemeni Jewish community in Raida, north of the country, will move to the capital Sana'a after receiving death threats from tribal and religious extremists, Jews and local official sources said on Friday.

The whole Jewish community, which has 266 people, will move tomorrow from the town of Raida in Amran province, to a governmental residential complex in the city of Sana'a, the sources said.


I am stunned that there are Jews still left in Yemen and even more stunned that they have not been murdered yet.

551 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:11:45am

re: #548 3 wood
Hi 3 what'd ya think of yesterdays marker?

552 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:11:59am

t

553 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:13:23am

re: #547 Spare O'Lake

You equate Gaza to the USA?
Unfuckingbelieveable.

Are you sure you're capable of reading and comprehending English, much less recognizing sarcasm?

554 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:13:51am

re: #548 3 wood
Good morning 3 wood! Uh, didn't the Illinois legislature already try to impeach Blago (after Illinois highest State Court said he could/should remain as govenor) and fail at doing so?
And is this just an attempt by the Dems to avoid a nasty fight over seating Blagos choice for the Senate Seat vacated by Obama - a choice who a) used to be attorney general of Illinois and is b) Black?

555 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:14:19am

re: #542 Spare O'Lake

Israel will go into Gaza on the ground as and when necessary, according to its plan.
Patience and iron resolve is the order of the day.

/you apparently believe that Cast Lead is being executed in a political vacuum

556 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:14:20am

re: #541 Geepers

Israel's biggest problem is going to be Barrack Hussein Obama and the meddlesome weak-willed dogooders he's surrounded himself with.

He needed to come out immediately in support of Israel and their fight against hamas. He's said nothing. This bodes very badly for Israel.

a hard one to figure...I think BO is trying to decide how to play it down the middle...this is not the campaign and he has to be definitive...one aspect of this problem is that he's pretty much an out of the closet anti-Semite...there are alot of people that did not vote for him nor trust his judgement...all eyes are on BO and I think he just doesnt know how to handle it...he will say mouthfuls that mean nothing

557 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:14:32am

re: #510 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I wouldn't have the guts to go in there. But I'll hold your coat.

I am careful about second guessing Israel's actions for the same reason I don't like to second guess Bush. They have the facts and really smart people advising them.

I am growing increasingly aware that the media is focusing it's weapon on Israel. I call it Palinization. Israel is getting the same treatment Palin got, to the same effect. See yesterday's poll on American attitudes towards Israel, and how they break down along lib/conserv lines. In fact, we all remember the interviews and the Zogby post-election polls showing how everybody who voted for Obama knew all about Bristol Palin and none of them knew who Bill Ayers is, or who Nancy Pelosi is for that matter.

The ignorance is enforced by brutal press suppression by the press. Hannity's radio show had a caller last night, a recent former American soldier who was an interrogator in the service. The call may have been a fraud. But if it was for real, this guy wanted to hang with America's ally but he was terribly conflicted because his head was all filled up with the Orwellian bullsh*t the media trowels out over the suffering Palestinians. He kept saying they've been pushed to the wall and he thinks Israel did that. Yes, the same Palestinians who turn their children into zombie monsters filling the ranks of their nazi army. The same Palestinians who democratically elected Hamas, consciously choosing death and suffering.

You cannot at present beat Palinization. The free press is turned against the very freedom of the press.

The only solution I can come up with is to stay out of the news. The Israelis are close to being able to do that with their Iron Dome anti-missile system. It doesn't have to be anywhere near perfect. They know they only have to hit the ones their computerized radar tells them are heading to populated areas, and they only have to hit a fair percentage of those. When that happens today's poor Pali suffering victims become tomorrow's pathetic losers. And that's a real bad press angle. Real bad. I wouldn't even know how to sell that angle to the Americans. Maybe the BBC can do something with poor people who sacrifice everything to kill Jews, and fail.

What the security fence did to the intefadeh, Iron Dome can do to Hamas. The security fence finally pacified the West Bank. In my humble opinion, the security fence has been buying Israel a mini golden age. I see Israel popping up more and more in medical discoveries and technology advances. If Iron Dome works even partially, it can neutralize Hamas and Gaza, and the good times can roll again.

Stay out of the news.

558 abolitionist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:14:34am

Found in headlines at HotAir,
Son of Hamas Leader Gives Glimpse Into Terror Organization

[snip]
"The Hamas leadership, including my father, they're responsible; they're responsible for all the violence that happened from the organization. I know they describe it as reaction to Israeli aggression, but still, they are part of it and they had to make decisions in those operations against Israel (for) which there was the killing of many civilians."

Yousef talks more about his extraordinary story of faith, courage, violence and betrayal in a FOX News documentary, "Escape From Hamas," hosted by Bill Hemmer.

Escape from Hamas airs Sat at 10p, with repeats at 1am and 4a, EST, and Sun at 9pm, with repeats at 12 midnight, 2am, EST.

559 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:14:59am

re: #495 JamesTKirk

Not my fault I'm deviated.

/Nobody nose the tribbles I've seen...

Some good doctors for a deviated septum, or so I hear.....

/white smoke...

560 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:15:08am

re: #538 Killian Bundy

Yeah, river to the sea, I hate Israel, that's me!
/and no, you don't get it

I know you do not hate Israel, I was being sarcastic.
But if you love Israel then have a little more faith in its leadership and military, and do not allow the wishes of the international community to dictate your position.

561 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:15:28am

re: #554 realwest

Morning friend!

The Illinois Supreme Court simply ruled that the AG's action to try and remove him was not permissible and didn't express a valid legal argument in support of her request. The Legislature has a clear right to attempt impeachment under Illinois law.

562 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:15:59am

Come on people. it's too early in the morning to start a Flame war

563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:16:08am

re: #547 Spare O'Lake

You equate Gaza to the USA?
Unfuckingbelieveable.

No. That is not what he said. Read it again. Check for the sarcasm.

564 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:17:01am

re: #537 JamesTKirk

I wouldn't complain if an Israeli misfire took out Berkeley.

565 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:17:21am

re: #543 realwest

Good morning y'all - from a coolish and damp (39 degrees,going up to 56 degress) foggy and overcast
Charlotte!
How are you all doing?

Morning RW, 55f and drizzle mist here. Have you told gunner about dorian?

566 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:17:30am

re: #547 Spare O'Lake

You equate Gaza to the USA?
Unfuckingbelieveable.

Biggest disconnect I've seen on LGF in a while. Did you read the comment that was being responded to?

G'mornin all.

567 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:18:11am

re: #560 Spare O'Lake

I know you do not hate Israel, I was being sarcastic.
But if you love Israel then have a little more faith in its leadership and military, and do not allow the wishes of the international community to dictate your position.

It is possible to love Israel without having faith in its leaders -- particularly given the track record of the current leaders -- just as it is possible (and, in a few weeks, highly probable) that one can love America without having faith in its leaders.

568 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:18:54am

Touchy this morning.

Hi everybody.

569 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:19:44am

re: #540 apachegunner
Heyas gunner

570 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:04am

re: #564 Rustler

I wouldn't complain if an Israeli misfire took out Berkeley.

I would.

I'd like to see them get off the drugs and get real jobs,

I'd like them to be stuck at home all day with a 24-hour virus every election day.

I'd like them to open their eyes and change their minds.

I don't want them (with a couple of rare possible exceptions) dead.

571 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:17am

dorian? re: #565 Pietr

Morning RW, 55f and drizzle mist here. Have you told gunner about dorian?

572 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:23am

re: #568 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Touchy this morning.

Hi everybody.

Good morning FBV.

573 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:23am

re: #557 Luigi

Iron Dome can work against targets coming from quite a distance away, but the logistics of firing kassams that will hit Sderot within 15 seconds is quite another. CIWS systems can offer some protection, but it's still hit and miss, and still requires Israelis building bomb shelters for their schools, hospitals, homes, and businesses.

There are good reasons to question Israel's reluctance to fight Hamas with the full force and effect of the IAF and IDF. The Hizbullah war lessons have not been fully applied and there are those within the Israeli government who are doing their best to undermine the Israeli war effort. That's why talk of a truce came to light earlier this week - courtesy of unnamed defense establishment officials.

The Winograd Report was quite clear on what Israel had to do to assure improved security, but in reality, Israel is faced with two choices - victory or defeat. A return to the status quo ante is a defeat. A ceasefire is a defeat. A hudna is a defeat. Israel needs to defeat Hamas. It would be extremely difficult to accomplish, but it is possible, even in an asymmetrical media and tactical environment.

574 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:36am

re: #566 Taqiyyotomist

"Mornin', Taqiyyotomist! Do you feel better/have a larger life perspective today? You seem much livelier, IMHO.

575 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:46am

re: #568 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Touchy this morning.

Hi everybody.

Morning FBV!

576 BlueCanuck  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:20:58am

Good morning all. Hows things in the blog this morning. It's a bright sunny day here in Central Ontario but it's cold and white. Currently -12 according to the thermometer outside the window.

577 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:14am

re: #575 JCM

Morning FBV!

Mornin' JCM.

578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:24am

I have an important announcement.

Ahem.

Today. January 3, 2009. Is the first day...

...of my newspaper subscription cancellation.

Can I get a high five?

579 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:25am

sheesh.....Rangel strikes again. even the NYT is noticing

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

580 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:34am

re: #568 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Touchy this morning.

Hi everybody.

Morning, FBV.

581 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:47am

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have an important announcement.

Ahem.

Today. January 3, 2009. Is the first day...

...of my newspaper subscription cancellation.

Can I get a high five?

High five!

582 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:49am

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have an important announcement.

Ahem.

Today. January 3, 2009. Is the first day...

...of my newspaper subscription cancellation.

Can I get a high five?

What took you so long?

(Which newspaper?)

583 deester  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:21:52am

I think, in this case feathered dinosaur does not prove evolution. It shows that there once existed feathered dinosaurs. Interpretation depends on the theory you apply (that is, on presuppositions).

584 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:22:04am

re: #542 Spare O'Lake
Ground invasions usually follow closley behind air strike so the enemy is still in disarray. Waiting for a period after strikes in a region to land troops there only allows the enemy to refortify it's postions and inflict higher casualties on Israel.

585 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:22:08am

Morning realwest.

586 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:22:23am

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have an important announcement.

Ahem.

Today. January 3, 2009. Is the first day...

...of my newspaper subscription cancellation.

Can I get a high five?

You have no idea how your life will improve because of this.

587 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:22:40am

re: #571 apachegunner

He stepped over the line in the "flying while Muslim" thread, and got the stick.....:>(

588 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:01am

In comment 536 Jewels (aka Julian) said:
"Personally, I think the IDF needs to keep rolling on and crush Hamas and it's supporters utterly."

In 537, after highlighting and quoting #536, and BOLDING the phrase, "And its supporters", JamesTKirk, recognizing that Hamas has a whole lot of supporters in the USA, including college campii, said that it probably wouldn't go over well if the IDF (per the previous comment) kept rolling on and crushed Hama's supporters here in the USA.

Get it? It was dark sarcasm.

589 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:03am

re: #561 lawhawk
Hey lawhawk! Thanks for clearing that up for me, but I still think the bottom line here is that the Dems in Washington don't want to appear to be publically opposing the seating of an otherwise competent BLACK Senator.
Al Franken - sure, let's seat that idiot.
The "new guy" Harris (?) who USED TO BE ATTORNEY GENERAL for the State of Illinois, no way- he didn't pay up, er, pay his dues! Yeah, that's the ticket!

590 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:12am

Shakespeare uses fools as the only characters in multiple plays capable of telling powerful rulers and nobility the truth through use of wit.

Clowns are less exalted, but nonetheless expose human folly through their foibles (Bottom the Weaver). We laugh at fools and clowns: we laugh at ourselves.

591 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:13am

re: #547 Spare O'Lake
That's not what he said at all he called college campuses in the US supporters of Hamas and Hizbollah etc.

592 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:26am

It's 65 degrees in Pensacola, Florida at 8:23 am, with a projected high of 72 under overcast skies with a 50% chance of showers.

593 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:27am

re: #584 Rustler

Ground invasions usually follow closley behind air strike so the enemy is still in disarray. Waiting for a period after strikes in a region to land troops there only allows the enemy to refortify it's postions and inflict higher casualties on Israel.

And there is a definite limit to what you can accomplish with air strikes only and no ground invasion at all.

594 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:32am

re: #568 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
HEY!

595 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:33am

Can you say UNHINGED!

The great-great-aunt says that's what she heard

The latest Palin baby story gets fishier and fishier by the day. Now it turns out that the only media outlet claiming any firsthand information about the blessed event, People magazine, says it got its information from Sarah Palin's aunt, Colleen Jones. And Jones says she only knows about it because she got an e-mail about it from her sister, Sarah Palin's mother. Jones lives in Kennewick, Washington; the many Palins live in Alaska.

No one has claimed to have seen this baby. No one has claimed to have a photo of this baby. There is confusion about the date of birth. There is confusion about the birth weight. No one knows where the baby was born. But hey, some distant relative of Sarah Palin says she got an e-mail saying that Bristol Palin just had a baby, and that's good enough for the mainstream media in the United States.

596 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:47am

re: #584 Rustler

Ground invasions usually follow closley behind air strike so the enemy is still in disarray. Waiting for a period after strikes in a region to land troops there only allows the enemy to refortify it's postions and inflict higher casualties on Israel.

And the longer they wait, the shorter will be the amount of time they will be allowed to reach their objectives, before a "truce" is forced down their throats?

597 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:23:57am

re: #577 Bloodnok

Mornin' JCM.

Morning, where's the hatchling with the coffee?

598 BlueCanuck  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:24:01am

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

*fist bump* Read my mom's paper yesterday. She's still got a subscription. The thing was filled mostly with flyers rather then news articles. But what can I say, it's a small town with small town news. :)

599 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:24:07am

re: #587 Pietr
oh noooooooooooo

600 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:24:09am

re: #565 Pietr
Morning. No, have you?

601 lifeofthemind  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:24:26am

re: #529 JamesTKirk

You want to take the franchise away from (even part of) the military? Good luck with that.

Follow me here, Active duty professional officers traditionally rarely voted. It was considered suspect if they did. Partly that was to calm public suspicion of the officer corp. It would be a concession to build support. Did you know that retired officers of Field Grade and above, such as army Majors, have reduced hiring and pay rights for entering the federal civil service? The fear of an aristocracy runs deep in this country. My concern is with those who contribute nothing at the other end of the spectrum. Please reconsider the ding.

602 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:24:58am

re: #583 deester

I think, in this case feathered dinosaur does not prove evolution. It shows that there once existed feathered dinosaurs. Interpretation depends on the theory you apply (that is, on presuppositions).

And these days feathers are found on birds. Which indicates that some dinosaurs evolved into birds.

And what about the other 11 examples?

603 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:11am

re: #553 JamesTKirk

Are you sure you're capable of reading and comprehending English, much less recognizing sarcasm?

Sarcasm is my middle name, but yours went right past me.

604 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:14am

re: #571 apachegunner
Sigh. Good morning Guns. Yeah, dorian got banned yesterday. Pietr has all the gory details.

605 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:24am

re: #522 Killian Bundy

KB- aside from the military no choice in the matter (the current military situation is proof of the failure to confront Hamas and the danger of their weapons), the politics are simple- there is an Israeli election scheduled for next month.

No party can or will survive a military failure of 2006 followed by a bigger disaster of not having the will to takeout relatively weak Hamas in 2009.

These considerations guarantee maximum response culminating in a Hamas defeat.

re: #557 Luigi

Luigi- one of the reasons for Israel's waning popularity of late is her not being seen to have the gumption to win. The American public like winners and want to see a strong ally. Anti-Israel folks have had a steady diet of weakness, retreat and wimpiness for over 20 years now and that erodes the Israel's psychological support. Give me a big win and I will show you oodles of pro-Israel support from Democrats.

606 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:32am

re: #583 deester

I think, in this case feathered dinosaur does not prove evolution. It shows that there once existed feathered dinosaurs. Interpretation depends on the theory you apply (that is, on presuppositions).

Care to explain?

/this is going to get interesting

607 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:39am

re: #559 Pietr
hello pietr

608 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:43am

re: #602 Salamantis

And these days feathers are found on birds. Which indicates that some dinosaurs evolved into birds.

And what about the other 11 examples?

2) Lizards learning to get on online and type.

609 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:25:54am

re: #574 Pietr

"Mornin', Taqiyyotomist! Do you feel better/have a larger life perspective today? You seem much livelier, IMHO.

Thank's Pietr. I won't come in here like that anymore. Y'all and Charles don't need that kind of self-pity.

Not really, no, but I'm alive and not willing to give up.

610 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:26:05am

re: #587 Pietr

He stepped over the line in the "flying while Muslim" thread, and got the stick.....:>(

I don't see why they need to buy airline tickets anyway; are all of their flying carpets in the shop?

611 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:26:14am

re: #600 realwest

Morning. No, have you?

Just did-he replies above your post here....

612 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:26:28am

re: #597 JCM

Morning, where's the hatchling with the coffee?

I had to get my own this morning. Ought not to be allowed...

613 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:26:31am

re: #579 Jewels (AKA Julian)

I'm no fan of Rangel's, but if the NY Times is after him, that means there's a local Democratic politician allied with the Times who covets Rangel's congressional seat, and is feeding these negative stories.

Were that not the case, the NY Times would remain silent about Rangel, as it has for several decades.

614 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:26:52am

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BIG High five.

615 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:27:14am

re: #560 Spare O'Lake

do not allow the wishes of the international community to dictate your position.

Where do you think the GBU-31 that killed Nizar Rayan and the F-16 that dropped it came from?

/and Obama's on deck

616 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:27:55am

re: #610 JamesTKirk

I don't see why they need to buy airline tickets anyway; are all of their flying carpets in the shop?

It seems like they should be able to djinn up some fast transportation...

617 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:27:57am

re: #568 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Touchy this morning.

Hi everybody.

Morning veggie..I guess we missed the fruitcup

618 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:28:24am

I'm watching the science channel right now. If dinosaurs are really extinct, where did they find all these dinosaur actors?

619 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:28:28am

re: #607 apachegunner

Hey backs, gunner. I was sad and have only just now returned......no more Baileys....Sniff, Sniff...

620 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:28:47am

re: #584 Rustler

Ground invasions usually follow closley behind air strike so the enemy is still in disarray. Waiting for a period after strikes in a region to land troops there only allows the enemy to refortify it's postions and inflict higher casualties on Israel.

The air strikes have not ended and I do not believe they will end before or even during the ground operation.

621 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:28:48am

re: #543 realwest

I'm doing fine here. It's about 28 here.

Any ideas on today's playoff games? Atlanta at Zona and Indy at San Diego?

I'll take the 2 road teams.

622 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:28:49am

Hey Ayatollah Ghilmeini.

Good to see you up and at 'em.

623 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:29:13am

re: #579 Jewels (AKA Julian)

sheesh.....Rangel strikes again. even the NYT is noticing

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

It's more pay to play, and it involves AIG, tax breaks, and the bailout.

The NYT broke several components of the Rangel mess, including the multiple rent stabilized apartments. The Times can do serious reporting when it wants to; the real question is why they never reported on this earlier, given just how widespread his corrupt actions have shown to be and how many years are involved.

624 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:30:15am

re: #596 nevergiveup The longer they wait the less they will be able to accomplish before a ceasefire is forced on them. Might still allow the same time frame but the amount of time wasted reforcing Hamas Troops out of improvised bunkers will lower Israel's chances of achieving a true victory in the region by utterly crippling Hamas.

625 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:30:26am

re: #573 lawhawk
"Israel needs to defeat Hamas. It would be extremely difficult to accomplish, but it is possible, even in an asymmetrical media and tactical environment."
Absolutely correct. But Israel isn't going to defeat Hamas if they don't get some boots and tracks on the ground in Gaza NOW - the momentum of world public opinion is beginning to swing against Israel, thanks to the damned MSM - I don't know why we've had over a week of war and it's still only an air war.
As I've said before, at best I am a small unit tactical thinker, not a strategic one, militarily. That's because my military background is specifically in small unit tactics. But I cannot for the life of me, understand why Israel has "massed troops and tanks" along the border with Gaza for more than a week now and just let them sit there.

626 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:30:55am

re: #618 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm watching the science channel right now. If dinosaurs are really extinct, where did they find all these dinosaur actors?

"You can hardly tell where the computer models finish and the real dinosaurs begin."
-Laura Dern, about the special effects in the movie Jurassic Park

627 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:31:11am

re: #621 3 wood

It's about 28 here.

Ouch! -It's 65 here -

628 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:31:14am

re: #621 3 wood

I'm doing fine here. It's about 28 here.

Any ideas on today's playoff games? Atlanta at Zona and Indy at San Diego?

I'll take the 2 road teams.

Meaning Indy/Atlanta? Me too.

Boy, Utah was fer real, huh.

629 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:31:27am

re: #620 Spare O'Lake
They haven't ended but they aren't striking hte same area repeatedly once the strikes in a region end the rubble rats move in and start entrenching themselves. Maybe you should go back to playing General in Call of Duty?

630 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:31:31am

re: #578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian HEY FBV! HIGH FIVE!
But what took ya so long?!
Parakeet pass on or what?!
:)

631 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:31:43am

re: #621 3 wood

I'm doing fine here. It's about 28 here.

Any ideas on today's playoff games? Atlanta at Zona and Indy at San Diego?

I'll take the 2 road teams.

Atlanta and Indy.

632 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:31:54am

re: #623 lawhawk

It's more pay to play, and it involves AIG, tax breaks, and the bailout.

The NYT broke several components of the Rangel mess, including the multiple rent stabilized apartments. The Times can do serious reporting when it wants to; the real question is why they never reported on this earlier, given just how widespread his corrupt actions have shown to be and how many years are involved.

The question is-since democRATs run on a platform of no morals-will anything come of this? I mean seriously......Sheesh.

633 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:32:03am

re: #626 JamesTKirk

Well played, Captain.

634 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:32:22am

re: #627 legalpad

Ouch! -It's 65 here -

30°F here.

635 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:33:05am

re: #633 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well played, Captain.

*bows*

*drops, rolls, tears shirt*

636 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:33:06am

Re: deester's #583

I am actually quite surprised that my #95 doesn't have any downdings. I was rather expecting it.
-Taq

637 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:33:10am

Night all shift over and relief here I may hop back on when I get Home but no garauntee.

638 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:33:18am

re: #579 Jewels (AKA Julian) Hi Julian! Holy Crap, that was in the NY Times?!
Wow - that's all I can say.

639 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:33:19am

re: #623 lawhawk

I've just learned that NY GOP Governor Nelson Rockefeller helped Rangel's early career by ensuring that no GOP candidates ran against him. For the Times to have suddenly "uncovered" all this longstanding stuff on Rangel means that another Democratic politician from Rangel's district covets his seat, and that the NY Times is on board with the new guy.

The NY Times NEVER acts with integrity. NEVER.

640 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:33:24am

re: #634 JamesTKirk

30°F here.

How do you do that degree thing?

641 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:08am

Germany's foreign minister urged on Saturday Muslim nations to use their influence to help secure an end to Hamas rocket attacks on Israel.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

That's a hot one. Were do some of these people live, Fantasy Land?

642 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:09am

re: #551 apachegunner

Hi 3 what'd ya think of yesterdays marker?

Market was way oversold.

Having said that, look for the traders to sell off on Monday to lock in some profits.

I've been doing some checking on the market pundits and predictors. They are about 50/50 split between will the market go up or go down on 2009.

Also, most of the people who got a reputation for predicting the market drop always predict a market drop.

I think the TARP and other steps are starting to have an effect. The hammering of bad news every day is slowing down, and the market has all ready priced in the bad news.

After Obama gets done with is "stimulus package" otherwise know as the Full Employment for Unions Intitiative, I think our problem will be high inflation and slow growth.

643 Rustler  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:16am

re: #640 legalpad
Look at an ascii character map maybe download it for reference beside your monitor.

644 lifeofthemind  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:33am

re: #625 realwest

"Israel needs to defeat Hamas. It would be extremely difficult to accomplish, but it is possible, even in an asymmetrical media and tactical environment."
Absolutely correct. But Israel isn't going to defeat Hamas if they don't get some boots and tracks on the ground in Gaza NOW - the momentum of world public opinion is beginning to swing against Israel, thanks to the damned MSM - I don't know why we've had over a week of war and it's still only an air war.
As I've said before, at best I am a small unit tactical thinker, not a strategic one, militarily. That's because my military background is specifically in small unit tactics. But I cannot for the life of me, understand why Israel has "massed troops and tanks" along the border with Gaza for more than a week now and just let them sit there.

Shaping the battle space. Maneuvering Hamas into position. Hope they have some good robots to demine and clear the path for the tanks, this will be very methodical.

645 Claudia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:40am

I watched a segment on Fox News (that is shown to international audiences during commercial breaks on US TV) about wild boars roaming in New Jersey. Not indigenous to the area, these are descendants of farms pigs that got away & have changed characteristics to resemble wild boars, with tusks etc...

646 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:47am

re: #49 Danderfoot

Is anyone else struck by the coloring the artist gave this critter?

The broken lines, spots and earth tones on the body are consistent with prey mammals, to stay hidden in brush and grass. However, what, if any, purpose would the brightly colored face proto-feathers serve on such an animal?

I can think of a couple off the top of my head - the bright colours could be to indicate readiness for breeding, or they could be a result of sexual selection - females some times favour mates with brightly coloured features precisely because it's dangerous to around like that. (If they can survive with that on their head giving them away all the time, they must be tough/fast/smart/whatever)


These guys need to get their stories straight lest people lose faith.
(now go *create* life in a test tube)

Maybe you just need to try thinking a little harder, or doing a little research before blurting out what you think is a knockdown argument against evolutionists hmmm?

647 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:34:50am

re: #625 realwest

"Israel needs to defeat Hamas. It would be extremely difficult to accomplish, but it is possible, even in an asymmetrical media and tactical environment."
Absolutely correct. But Israel isn't going to defeat Hamas if they don't get some boots and tracks on the ground in Gaza NOW - the momentum of world public opinion is beginning to swing against Israel, thanks to the damned MSM - I don't know why we've had over a week of war and it's still only an air war.
As I've said before, at best I am a small unit tactical thinker, not a strategic one, militarily. That's because my military background is specifically in small unit tactics. But I cannot for the life of me, understand why Israel has "massed troops and tanks" along the border with Gaza for more than a week now and just let them sit there.

I've been thinking the same thing, I had thought "boots on the ground" would have come yesterday. Plus the the "hurry up and wait" must be taking it's toll on those troops.

648 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:35:16am

re: #640 legalpad

&deg;

649 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:35:37am

re: #629 Rustler

They haven't ended but they aren't striking hte same area repeatedly once the strikes in a region end the rubble rats reuters photographers and green helmet guy move in and start entrenching themselves. Maybe you should go back to playing General in Call of Duty?

Fixed.

650 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:35:51am

re: #618 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm watching the science channel right now. If dinosaurs are really extinct, where did they find all these dinosaur actors?

I was going to make a Screen Raptors Guild joke, but I decided against it.

651 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:35:51am

re: #554 realwest

Good morning 3 wood! Uh, didn't the Illinois legislature already try to impeach Blago

No, they just had one meeting and then sat back to see what would happen.

They now have gotten the word form Harry Reid and Pelosi to get rid of this guy but quick.

652 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:36:06am

re: #636 Taqiyyotomist

Re: deester's #583

I am actually quite surprised that my #95 doesn't have any downdings. I was rather expecting it.
-Taq

I thought your 95 was pretty witty...

653 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:36:20am

re: #624 Rustler

The longer they wait the less they will be able to accomplish before a ceasefire is forced on them. Might still allow the same time frame but the amount of time wasted reforcing Hamas Troops out of improvised bunkers will lower Israel's chances of achieving a true victory in the region by utterly crippling Hamas.

it's politically expedient to call for a cease fire...but nobody can force one on Israel...maybe they will suprise you!...it's possible Israel could care less what BO has to say and if they disagree with him I hope they say so....jmo

654 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:36:49am

Any war always includes a timing component. When to strike to maximize effect; how long your supplies will last; enemy strength, ability to regroup and rearm; how entrenched, etc.

An air campaign can degrade enemy strength, affect C3I, attack certain entrenched and prepositioned targets, etc. It can and does shape and prepare the battlespace for ground operations.

It just remains to be seen when and how Israel does decide to engage in ground ops. I remain concerned that Israel is telegraphing its moves beyond the opening targeting list. That undermines the effectiveness of the campaign, and combined with a limited diplomatic period of time in which to operate (the inevitable UN resolution is going to happen, as is Israeli acceptance of same - based on Olmert's previous failure in the Hizbullah war), Israel's ground forces have to address major issues to succeed.

In their favor, they can likely cut Gaza off from Sinai with a retaking of the Philadelphi corridor, although Hamas would expect the same. Israel didn't cut supply lines in Lebanon, mostly because it wanted to avoid hitting Syrian targets. That's not an issue here. A densely packed "civilian" environment is. That kind of environment is ripe for massive civilian casualties regardless of what Israel does to minimize casualties and Hamas and its media propagandists will spin any such casualties as a new Holocaust, concentration camps, genocide, etc. - purposefully destroying the meaning of those words.

655 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:37:11am

re: #619 Pietr

Hey backs, gunner. I was sad and have only just now returned......no more Baileys....Sniff, Sniff...

hey! wait a minute. I'm da baileys guy not dorian. here, pass me your cup. you are drinking coffee aren't ya?

656 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:37:15am

re: #644 lifeofthemind

Shaping the battle space. Maneuvering Hamas into position. Hope they have some good robots to demine and clear the path for the tanks, this will be very methodical.

Yep. The very prsence of the Israeli ground units on the border forces Hamas jihadis to take up defensive positions they wouldn't otherwise choose to occupy - positions from where they can be picked off from the air (which is precisely why they wouldn't otherwise choose to occupy them).

657 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:37:24am

re: #645 Claudia

I watched a segment on Fox News (that is shown to international audiences during commercial breaks on US TV) about wild boars roaming in New Jersey. Not indigenous to the area, these are descendants of farms pigs that got away & have changed characteristics to resemble wild boars, with tusks etc...

I live in NJ. They are out of their minds. Those are not wild boars. They selfish pigs, normally known as Democrats.

658 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:37:25am

re: #630 realwest

Actually, only got it on the weekend. Read Parade Magazine's "Ask Marilyn" and sometimes would read the movie reviews.

Decided not to renew after about the, oh, fiftieth time in a row that I saw the President-Elect's picture smiling at me from above the fold.

I'll miss the Sunday Crossword. But, I'm creative...I'll get it somehow.

659 BlueCanuck  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:37:51am

re: #645 Claudia

I watched a segment on Fox News (that is shown to international audiences during commercial breaks on US TV) about wild boars roaming in New Jersey. Not indigenous to the area, these are descendants of farms pigs that got away & have changed characteristics to resemble wild boars, with tusks etc...

Wouldn't that be a case of de-evolution?

/either that or Rosie's relatives moved to the area. . . . . .

660 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:38:16am

re: #655 apachegunner

hey! wait a minute. I'm da baileys guy not dorian. here, pass me your cup. you are drinking coffee aren't ya?

I'll take a shot gunner..gotta go shopping soon

661 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:38:20am

I've seen multiple downdings for simple questions on this topic here.

662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:38:36am

SNUGGIE COMMERCIAL!

663 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:38:57am

re: #647 Dustyvet

not to mention the Hamasholes

664 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:39:07am

re: #657 nevergiveup

You meant "wild bores posing as Democrats" didn't you? ;-)

665 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:39:11am

re: #662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

SNUGGIE COMMERCIAL!

Dammit, FBV, stop trying to start a snuggies thread!

;)

666 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:39:23am

re: #659 BlueCanuck

Wouldn't that be a case of de-evolution?

Are we not men?

Youtube Video
667 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:39:25am

re: #629 Rustler

They haven't ended but they aren't striking hte same area repeatedly once the strikes in a region end the rubble rats move in and start entrenching themselves. Maybe you should go back to playing General in Call of Duty?

Nope, not me.
You and several other lizards are the arm-chair generals.
For now, I have chosen to place my faith in Israel's military and leadership, not in the LGF Generals and the back-biting MSM.

668 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:39:27am

re: #651 3 wood

No, they just had one meeting and then sat back to see what would happen.

They now have gotten the word form Harry Reid and Pelosi to get rid of this guy but quick.

Chicago Sun Times reporting this morning that Blagojevich has had his brifing status pulled by the Department Of Homeland Security: IE: SECURITY CLEARANCE REVOKED!

669 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:39:42am

re: #662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

SNUGGIE COMMERCIAL!

Science channel! They must be selling the hell out those

670 lifeofthemind  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:40:04am

Fact is that Blago hasn't even been indicted, he is an elected governor and now he is losing his security clearance and the Democrats in the Senate are saying they will refuse to seat his selection by fiat. Blago is sleezy but he has only been accused, nothing has been proven yet, he hasn't even been before a Grand Jury. This is very undemocratic.

671 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:40:24am

re: #664 quickjustice

You meant "wild bores posing as Democrats" didn't you? ;-)

Well yeah in Hudson County, wild boars/bores do have the vote.

672 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:40:29am

re: #625 realwest

re: #647 Dustyvet

About the only think I can figure is Israel is playing a media game again. Give Hamas a cease fire. Stop the air campaign. Wait a few minutes, and Hamas launches another rocket barrage.

Israel turns to the world community, shurgs, and says, "told you so."

The the ground assault with tons of CAS begins.

Not saying I like, it or think it's smart. But political leaders, always make political considerations.

673 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:40:42am

re: #655 apachegunner

Oh-I am now...I love Irish Coffee.....

674 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:40:42am

re: #668 Dustyvet

Chicago Sun Times reporting this morning that Blagojevich has had his brifing status pulled by the Department Of Homeland Security: IE: SECURITY CLEARANCE REVOKED!

Wow.

Even **I** have a security clearance.

It's pretty bad when someone is considered less stable and trustworthy than me.

675 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:41:13am

re: #659 BlueCanuck

Wouldn't that be a case of de-evolution?

/either that or Rosie's relatives moved to the area. . . . . .

Domestically breeded animal strains have to be continuously tweaked, via selective breeding and culling, to maintain their characteristics. In the wild, and absent this continuous human tweaking, they tend to revert over time to the wild stable default state of the genome.

676 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:41:23am

re: #670 lifeofthemind

The Democrat Party doesn not care about Democracy, only power

677 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:41:32am

re: #673 Pietr

Oh-I am now...I love Irish Coffee.....

Me too, please.

Irish coffee FTW! Only losers drink Earl Grey Tea.

678 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:41:33am

re: #672 JCM

The international community doesn't give a shit and come Jan 20th.......

679 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:42:34am

re: #670 lifeofthemind

Fact is that Blago hasn't even been indicted, he is an elected governor and now he is losing his security clearance and the Democrats in the Senate are saying they will refuse to seat his selection by fiat. Blago is sleezy but he has only been accused, nothing has been proven yet, he hasn't even been before a Grand Jury. This is very undemocratic.

oh i don't think it's undemocratic..The dude got caught up in a political scandal.
We don't need no stinking grand jury! LOL

680 rw in san diego  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:43:02am

Good morning, everybody.
The year in review.

681 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:43:06am

re: #652 HoosierHoops
hiya Hoops!

682 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:44:10am

re: #678 nevergiveup

The international community doesn't give a shit and come Jan 20th.......

Yeah, "Get 'em skeered and keep the skeer on 'em," only way to go.

683 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:44:11am

re: #681 apachegunner

hiya Hoops!

Howdy Gunner
*holds out cup*

684 lifeofthemind  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:44:14am

I'm out, let the children run rampant in here, the adults will be back later.

685 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:44:37am

re: #660 HoosierHoops
pass your cup partner :>)

686 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:44:59am

re: #684 lifeofthemind

I'm out, let the children run rampant in here, the adults will be back later.

ADULTS SUCK! nyah nyah nyah!

687 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:45:07am

1,618 News Articles on the Muslims on a Plane issue.

1,618 Articles which (I didn't read them all, I'm using fuzzy analysis and guesswork based on past reading here...so sue me...) do not mention:

A. Name of the 'religious retreat' in Orlando they were headed to.

B. The comment which one 'Irate' member of the family spoke.

One side of the story. Journalism is dead.

688 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:45:30am

re: #625 realwest

"Israel needs to defeat Hamas. It would be extremely difficult to accomplish, but it is possible, even in an asymmetrical media and tactical environment."
Absolutely correct. But Israel isn't going to defeat Hamas if they don't get some boots and tracks on the ground in Gaza NOW - the momentum of world public opinion is beginning to swing against Israel, thanks to the damned MSM - I don't know why we've had over a week of war and it's still only an air war.
As I've said before, at best I am a small unit tactical thinker, not a strategic one, militarily. That's because my military background is specifically in small unit tactics. But I cannot for the life of me, understand why Israel has "massed troops and tanks" along the border with Gaza for more than a week now and just let them sit there.

Is a week too long time for an air war to last?
I don't think so.
And if the ground buildup is driving you nuts, imagine how it's making the occupants of Gaza feel.
And besides, the weather is clearing and the muck is drying up as we speak.
Patience, my friend.

689 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:45:37am

re: #684 lifeofthemind

I'm out, let the children run rampant in here, the adults will be back later.

Now is Bloodnok's time to shine!

690 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:45:37am

re: #573 lawhawk

I'm out of my depth here, but I'll characteristically offer my opinion anyway.

The 15-second cities, let's call them, have no protection now and will have no protection in the 2010 generation of Iron Dome which takes 13 seconds to get an intercept. However, the nightmare scenario for us, and the wet dream for them, is to pull all of Israel within range from Lebanon and Gaza, and who knows where else. This can be denied them soon. And keep in mind this is only the first generation technology. It is just a stopgap until something that works better, and quicker, and doesn't cost $25k per round.

On a more esoteric level, I know everybody in the world says Hamas must go or there is no victory. I don't see it that way. To me, Hamas is valuable strategic asset. Hamas has split in two the Pali movement, and it is a split which only grows deeps as the days go by.

There is no "victory' anyway. There is never "victory" for Jews. There is only survival for another generation. I want those divisions in the Pali movement to become years for the Israelis to grow stronger and to live their lives in the closest thing to peace that can be had.

691 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:45:53am

re: #679 HoosierHoops

oh i don't think it's undemocratic..The dude got caught up in a political scandal.
We don't need no stinking grand jury! LOL

HERE COME THE JUDGE, HERE COME THE JUDGE, ORDER IN THE COURTROOM..

.

Youtube Video
692 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:45:59am

re: #611 Pietr
Yes, I know. Sorry - still a raw nerve with me.

693 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:46:03am

re: #683 HoosierHoops

Howdy Gunner
*holds out cup*

man oh man are you the fast one or what?

694 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:46:31am

re: #677 JamesTKirk

Me too, please.

Irish coffee FTW! Only losers drink Earl Grey Tea.

Picard will not be pleased, Captain. Are you calling Jean Luc a loser? Eh?
:)

695 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:47:36am

re: #631 nevergiveup

Atlanta and Indy.

/Eagle and who the [expletive deleted] cares who gets sacrificed to the Steelers on Sunday

696 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:47:39am

re: #667 Spare O'Lake

No Generals here, to my knowledge-just a bunch of us old (and newer) enlisted, with a smattering of officers(0-4 is the hightest I've talked to here). That said-I believe the IDF is sucking the Hamasholes in-watching any mining operations, and troop buildups preparing for the IDF. Then, they'll keep them on edge for a while-only to strike after Hamasholes have lost their edge/vigilance. I'm only a dumb ole E-7, but I know what I'd do...Heh heh.

697 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:47:46am
January 3, 2009: The Israeli attack on Hamas forces in Gaza on December 27th, hit fifty targets within 220 seconds. The fifty Israeli aircraft assembled off the coast, and delivered a well rehearsed attack designed to take out Hamas targets before key commanders could get away. Israeli intelligence had discovered Hamas plans for such an Israeli attack, which involved key Hamas personnel immediately dispersing to hiding places. These included hospitals, where the Hamas men would dress in staff uniforms and blend in. Other safe havens included nursery schools, and other places where the Hamas officials would be surrounded by lots of civilians at all times. Thus the tight timing for the Israeli attack, intended to catch the key Hamas personnel before they could disperse.

Why a ground offensive is now an imperative.

The Israelis also make use of the phone system to avoid civilian casualties. For example, the bombing campaign after the initial attack was directed mostly at the thousands of rockets Hamas had stockpiled. Most of these were stored in civilian housing. This was a technique pioneered by Hezbollah in Lebanon. There, some homes would have a basement excavated, to provide more space for rockets. Israeli intelligence is still identifying these storage locations. When one is found, the Israelis will phone the home just before the attack and tell the civilians they have a few minutes to get out before the place blows up. In at least one case, the civilians were defiant, and went to the roof, believing that the Israelis would not bomb with women and children in plain sight. In response, the Israeli fighter came in low and fired some 20mm cannon shells right next to the building. The panicked civilians fled the building and the place blew up shortly thereafter.

News you'll never see in the MSM.

698 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:48:36am

re: #687 Taqiyyotomist

1,618 News Articles on the Muslims on a Plane issue.

1,618 Articles which (I didn't read them all, I'm using fuzzy analysis and guesswork based on past reading here...so sue me...) do not mention:

A. Name of the 'religious retreat' in Orlando they were headed to.

B. The comment which one 'Irate' member of the family spoke.

One side of the story. Journalism is dead.


i read a story about the #%$*ing muslims and their protests, many and great protests, around the world and on the normal muslim "day of rest" and these were the words of the icky author of the article. funny huh?

699 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:48:41am

re: #694 Taqiyyotomist

Picard will not be pleased, Captain. Are you calling Jean Luc a loser? Eh?
:)

Captain Picard stood before the replicator, trying to decide what sort of hot beverage he would enjoy. After a great deal of thought, he opened his mouth to order some hot Earl Grey tea. Just then, the doorbell rang. "Come!" he said absently. A steaming mug appeared in the replicator. Captain Picard took a sip and then immediately spit it out.

/not the author

700 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:48:43am

re: #694 Taqiyyotomist

Well...Captain Picard is French.... :) or rather a Englishman doinga bad impression of a Frenchman

701 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:48:52am

re: #697 Geepers

News you'll never see in the MSM.

[Link: idfspokesperson.com...]

702 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:49:14am

All his friends say he was a nice guy and the police shouldn't have shot him.

Friends say man killed by police wasn't a Nazi

SEATTLE -- A man dressed in a World War II-era German uniform who was fatally shot by Seattle police on New Year's Day was fascinated with history and enjoyed re-enacting war events, friends say

[snip]

When police knocked on the door of one apartment, Kappel says the man who answered held a long rifle with a large bayonet attached.

The spokesman says Murphy refused several orders to drop the weapon and then pointed it at one of the officers. Two officers shot him several times and he died at a hospital.

Here's a hint for this fool's friends. When some is hold a gun, cops are going to say drop it. If it's not dropped he's gonna' get his ass shot.

703 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:49:55am

re: #702 JCM

Makes sense to me.

704 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:50:22am
QB Donovan McNabb PHI
QB Peyton Manning IND

RB Brandon Jacobs NYG
RB Chris Johnson TEN
RB Michael Turner ATL
RB Brian Westbrook PHI
RB DeAngelo Williams CAR

WR Larry Fitzgerald ARI
WR Steve Smith CAR
WR Hines Ward PIT
WR Reggie Wayne IND
WR Roddy White ATL

K David Akers PHI
K Rob Bironas TEN

/phone it in for cash in a fantasy league playoff challenge

705 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:50:25am

re: #693 apachegunner

man oh man are you the fast one or what?

You been talking to my wife again?

706 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:51:36am

re: #704 Killian Bundy

Wait! Where's Tony Romo?

Sigh.

707 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:51:43am

re: #699 JamesTKirk

LOL. Ewwwwwwwwew!

708 BlueCanuck  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:52:12am

re: #699 JamesTKirk

Ugh, :p that was just wrong and disgusting.

709 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:52:49am

re: #705 HoosierHoops
heh

710 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:52:50am

re: #699 JamesTKirk

Didn't quote...that was so BAD it was good...

/white smoke....

711 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:52:56am

re: #696 Pietr

No Generals here, to my knowledge-just a bunch of us old (and newer) enlisted, with a smattering of officers(0-4 is the hightest I've talked to here). That said-I believe the IDF is sucking the Hamasholes in-watching any mining operations, and troop buildups preparing for the IDF. Then, they'll keep them on edge for a while-only to strike after Hamasholes have lost their edge/vigilance. I'm only a dumb ole E-7, but I know what I'd do...Heh heh.

I like the gulf war 1 battle plan.. Bomb them till they are at a breaking point then go in and finish the job..There is no rush..

712 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:53:01am

re: #702 JCM

All his friends say he was a nice guy and the police shouldn't have shot him.

Friends say man killed by police wasn't a Nazi

Here's a hint for this fool's friends. When some is hold a gun, cops are going to say drop it. If it's not dropped he's gonna' get his ass shot.

Darwin...it still makes me sad that this had to happen...what kind of young adults are we raising...when I was growing up we treated our shotguns and rifles with enormous respect and a sort of pride...I dont get it

713 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:53:12am

re: #699 JamesTKirk

Uh. I just got that. I am embarrassed.

714 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:53:16am

Hamas top dog to Israel: "If you commit the stupidity of launching a ground offensive then a black destiny awaits you. You will soon find out that Gaza is the wrath of Allah."

715 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:53:38am

re: #703 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Makes sense to me.

I get so tried of whining like this. Every time a fool of kid gets shot by cops for not following their instructions, friends and family assisted by the media have an all out whinefest.

716 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:53:46am

re: #706 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wait! Where's Tony Romo?

Sigh.

hiding on another planet I hope

717 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:54:05am

re: #708 BlueCanuck

Ugh, :p that was just wrong and disgusting.

Considering the fact that Picard is known to play the role of a 19th century naval officer on the holodeck, one must assume that he has some fondness for seamen.

718 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:54:15am

re: #648 JamesTKirk

cool - thanks

719 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:54:34am

re: #690 Luigi

I'm out of my depth here, but I'll characteristically offer my opinion anyway.

May I please see your pass to the LGF situation room?

720 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:54:42am

re: #717 JamesTKirk
lol

721 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:54:43am

re: #621 3 woodI'm picking Arizona and Indy (still hoping for a Manning v. Manning Super Bowl!)and now that both of the Giant's 1,000 yard rushers will have had two weeks off to rest, I like the Giant's chances, though think it will be Carolina vs. the Giants!
Say what do you make of the Dems trying to unseat Blago so they don't have to oppose his appointment to the US Senate?

722 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:55:15am

re: #715 JCM

I just get sick of the "he was a nice guy" comments. No he wasn't. He was not a nice guy. He is dead. And deservedly so.

I am going to get someone to speak at my memorial service. Specifically there to talk about how much of a dick I could be.

723 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:55:30am

re: #643 Rustler

Look at an ascii character map maybe download it for reference beside your monitor.

Still looking for a good chart. Some of them aren't real direct.

724 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:55:41am

re: #718 legalpad

cool - thanks

No problem. I've got the ones I use most often memorized.

725 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:56:29am

re: #696 Pietr

No Generals here, to my knowledge-just a bunch of us old (and newer) enlisted, with a smattering of officers(0-4 is the hightest I've talked to here). That said-I believe the IDF is sucking the Hamasholes in-watching any mining operations, and troop buildups preparing for the IDF. Then, they'll keep them on edge for a while-only to strike after Hamasholes have lost their edge/vigilance. I'm only a dumb ole E-7, but I know what I'd do...Heh heh.

I am pretty sure we got one or two 0-5's, but still in the support role, not necessarily line officers.

726 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:56:54am

re: #715 JCM

I get so tried of whining like this. Every time a fool of kid gets shot by cops for not following their instructions, friends and family assisted by the media have an all out whinefest.

he was a good boy...he was a smart boy....he was the most likable kid....now he's dead because beyond all that he was a drunken fool....

727 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:57:36am

re: #723 legalpad

Still looking for a good chart. Some of them aren't real direct.

Search for "HTML ampersand codes"

728 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:57:59am

re: #714 Dustyvet

Hamas top dog to Israel: "If you commit the stupidity of launching a ground offensive then a black destiny awaits you. You will soon find out that Gaza is the wrath of Allah."

Oh boy! the mother of all battles part deux

729 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:58:33am

re: #726 albusteve

he was a good boy...he was a smart boy....he was the most likable kid....now he's dead because beyond all that he was a drunken fool....

Yep, Darwin candidate fur sur.

730 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:58:48am

re: #674 JamesTKirk

It's pretty bad when someone is considered less stable and trustworthy than me.

This guy is total scum. Not that this bothered the Democrats before, they knew it and relished in it. But now it is making them look bad and could threaten the status of their Messiah, so he's got to go.

731 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:58:48am

re: #728 HoosierHoops

Oh boy! the mother of all battles part deux

Their stomachs will roast in Hell!

/

732 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:58:50am

re: #677 JamesTKirk

Me too, please.

Irish coffee FTW! Only losers drink Earl Grey Tea.

re: #694 Taqiyyotomist

Picard will not be pleased, Captain. Are you calling Jean Luc a loser? Eh?
:)

He had a French moniker, but I seem to remember he wore a kilt and claimed to be Scottish in a few episodes.....yes/no?

733 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:58:55am

re: #622 Geepers

Hey Geepers Happy New Year!

734 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:58:57am

re: #719 Spare O'Lake

May I please see your pass to the LGF situation room?

Are you Wolf Blitzer?

/

735 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:59:00am

legalpad (#723),

Special Characters.

736 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:59:07am

re: #644 lifeofthemind
I understand that, BUT it's also given Hamas more time to get more sophisticated weaponry from Iran
Hezbollah. And to "dig in".

737 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:59:42am

re: #714 Dustyvet

Hamas top dog to Israel: "If you commit the stupidity of launching a ground offensive then a black destiny awaits you. You will soon find out that Gaza is the wrath of Allah."

Suck to live there then, Huh?

738 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 6:59:42am

One has to wonder if Picard ever actually traveled back in time to the 19th century.

If so, did he find Earl Grey hot?

739 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:00:37am

re: #736 realwest

I understand that, BUT it's also given Hamas more time to get more sophisticated weaponry from Iran
Hezbollah. And to "dig in".

That's why the IAF took out the cross-border tunnels with deep penetrators days ago.

740 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:00:39am

re: #706 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wait! Where's Tony Romo?

What time do the Cowboy's play?

*snicker*

741 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:00:42am

Ayatollah Ghilmeini (#733),

Hey Geepers Happy New Year!

Same to you my friend.

742 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:01:24am

re: #725 nevergiveup

I am pretty sure we got one or two 0-5's, but still in the support role, not necessarily line officers.

CW4, 140A, retired

743 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:01:40am

re: #647 Dustyvet
Yeah, I agree Dusty, though I think the IDF is much more used to the hurry up part; the wait is no good for the troops at all.
If Israel is going into Gaza on the Ground, they either shoulda done it yesterday or the day before, or held off massing the troops and tanks until a couple of days ago.
Hey how's your stone coming along? Still want to charge it rent?!

744 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:01:41am

re: #740 3 wood

What time do the Cowboy's play?

*snicker*

Don't they play the Bears Sunday?
:)

745 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:01:45am

re: #735 Geepers

Happy New Year Geepers.

Hope you are healthy and happy.

746 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:02:08am

re: #742 apachegunner

CW4, 140A, retired

but still in the support role as a civilian

747 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:02:18am

gtg...

748 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:02:37am

I just wish there were a way to find out what kind of religious retreat is or was being held in Orlando, and what is on the agenda. Besides bumping heads on carpets, that is. Could it be that these conferences and retreats have planned talks on gaming the system (as some think this case, and the 6 Imams case are examples of)? It would be nice to get some printed material from one of these conferences, an itinerary, etc. Or a website announcement with an itinerary, for that matter. All these "religious retreats" and nobody knows where (Orlando, kinda vague), or when, or what its called.

There is too much secrecy in Islam for it to be benign, IMO. I'm betting it was a conference of some sort, dealing with issues like this, or like MN cabbies, or like campus prayer-rooms...all about gaming the US system to make the US and its authorities (and its watchful citizens) complacent and afraid to ever speak up. I seriously doubt they were going to a Jamaat paramilitary training compound, not from VA. Maybe if they were going TO Virginia. Orlando is where you hold things like business conferences and Seminars. And I would bet all the money being printed by Congress that these conferences have the focus I've discussed above.

We need to get more info, but how? Get UK Channel 4 on it?

749 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:03:07am

re: #728 HoosierHoops

Oh boy! the mother of all battles part deux

In Damascus, the exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal warned Israel that it faced a “black destiny” if it decided to launch a ground offensive.

Khaled Meshaal big words from an asshat sitting on his ass in Damascus...

750 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:03:09am

re: #744 HoosierHoops

Don't they play the Bears Sunday?
:)

If they do, I predict that the Bears "D" will give up over 400 yards, Orton will throw into triple coverage at least 4 times, and Devin Hester will run pass routes know only to himself.

751 JamesTKirk  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:03:12am

Heh, I just noticed the "How to enter special characters" link near the bottom of the page...

752 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:03:20am

re: #740 3 wood

What time do the Cowboy's play?

*snicker*

hisssssss....

753 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:03:42am

re: #717 JamesTKirk

And didn't they hunt Sperm Whales in one of those....

/white smoke...runs for the bunker...

754 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:04:03am

re: #748 Taqiyyotomist

I just wish there were a way to find out what kind of religious retreat is or was being held in Orlando, and what is on the agenda. Besides bumping heads on carpets, that is. Could it be that these conferences and retreats have planned talks on gaming the system (as some think this case, and the 6 Imams case are examples of)? It would be nice to get some printed material from one of these conferences, an itinerary, etc. Or a website announcement with an itinerary, for that matter. All these "religious retreats" and nobody knows where (Orlando, kinda vague), or when, or what its called.

There is too much secrecy in Islam for it to be benign, IMO. I'm betting it was a conference of some sort, dealing with issues like this, or like MN cabbies, or like campus prayer-rooms...all about gaming the US system to make the US and its authorities (and its watchful citizens) complacent and afraid to ever speak up. I seriously doubt they were going to a Jamaat paramilitary training compound, not from VA. Maybe if they were going TO Virginia. Orlando is where you hold things like business conferences and Seminars. And I would bet all the money being printed by Congress that these conferences have the focus I've discussed above.

We need to get more info, but how? Get UK Channel 4 on it?

Maybe they were going to Jihadi day at Disney World...;~)

755 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:04:12am

re: #740 3 wood

The "sigh" below my comment denoted sadness.

You are enjoying my pain.

I'm empty inside.

756 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:04:40am

re: #743 realwest

Yeah, I agree Dusty, though I think the IDF is much more used to the hurry up part; the wait is no good for the troops at all.
If Israel is going into Gaza on the Ground, they either shoulda done it yesterday or the day before, or held off massing the troops and tanks until a couple of days ago.
Hey how's your stone coming along? Still want to charge it rent?!

Today it's being quiet, but it had me up most of the night.

757 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:04:46am

Later Cap'n.

758 Geepers  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:04:55am

3 wood (#745),

Happy New Year Geepers.

Hope you are healthy and happy.

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm doing fine thanks.

And all the best to you and your family.

759 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:05:21am

re: #625 realwest

The reason for no ground op so far-

Israel did explore a negotiated settlement of the fight. That would explain all the "cease fire" reports of 3-4 days ago. Hamas was looking for the status quo ante- keeping their weapons and a UNIFIL style international force to protect them but not stop their Jihad. Israel insisted, I am certain because the talks went nowhere, on verified disarmament, a non-starter with Hamas.

The shrill "you are all going to die" call from Mashal is a sure sign that they did not get what they wanted and went back to bluster and playing to the international Islamists for cover.

Since the Egyptians and Saudis have blessed the escalation my bet is tonight or tomorrow night, the tanks roll.

760 apachegunner  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:06:30am

well, t time at 1245hrs, gotta get started with that day. CYA

761 rw in san diego  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:06:43am

re: #721 realwest

I'm picking Arizona and Indy (still hoping for a Manning v. Manning Super Bowl!)and now that both of the Giant's 1,000 yard rushers will have had two weeks off to rest, I like the Giant's chances, though think it will be Carolina vs. the Giants!
Say what do you make of the Dems trying to unseat Blago so they don't have to oppose his appointment to the US Senate?

YOU"RE PICKING INDY? How can you do that when you have such a good friend here in SAN DIEGO?

/sadly getting ready for Chargers to choke

762 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:06:47am

re: #759 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

The reason for no ground op so far-

Israel did explore a negotiated settlement of the fight. That would explain all the "cease fire" reports of 3-4 days ago. Hamas was looking for the status quo ante- keeping their weapons and a UNIFIL style international force to protect them but not stop their Jihad. Israel insisted, I am certain because the talks went nowhere, on verified disarmament, a non-starter with Hamas.

The shrill "you are all going to die" call from Mashal is a sure sign that they did not get what they wanted and went back to bluster and playing to the international Islamists for cover.

Since the Egyptians and Saudis have blessed the escalation my bet is tonight or tomorrow night, the tanks roll.

Your mouth to G-d's ear.

Hamas needs to cease to exist.

763 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:07:23am

The army is well known for its policy of Hurry up and wait especially when the top brass is involved. We were tasked with doing a bridge demolition over the mittland canal in Germany. On which we where going to get a visit from the CRE as the task was nearly complete and we had not yet been visited it was decided we should have a break and get some rays in. Upon hearing a helicopter coming we all rushed back to the bridges and waited until the CRE had landed before getting on with our respected tasks. One Junior NCO was working on the dems ladders over the side of the bridge. As the CRE was visiting safety harness had to be worn when working over the sides or up top of the bridge. This junior NCO then proceed to clip his belt what he thought was through the ladder and proceed to lean back. However in his haste to look good for the CRE he had forgotten to place the belt through the rungs of the ladder, upon leaning back he carried until he hit the water 20ft below with a huge splash. Upon hearing this all the rest of the troop including the CRE leaned over the side upon seeing this NCO swimming in the canal every one bust out with laughter.

764 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:07:28am

re: #711 HoosierHoops

There is no rush..

In this case there is. The international cease fire cacophony will overtake events just like Lebanon '06. The current thinking is a "useful as a third tit" UN peacekeeping force in Gaza, just like Lebanon.

/Hamas gets a hudna and lives to rearm for another day

765 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:07:48am

re: #605 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Luigi- one of the reasons for Israel's waning popularity of late is her not being seen to have the gumption to win. The American public like winners and want to see a strong ally. Anti-Israel folks have had a steady diet of weakness, retreat and wimpiness for over 20 years now and that erodes the Israel's psychological support. Give me a big win and I will show you oodles of pro-Israel support from Democrats.

I agree, sort of. However, see my remarks about the Palinization of Israel. The media weapon is turned on Israel now -- more shaping public opinion then being shaped by it. What they did to Palin, Bush and the Iraq War, they're doing to Israel. What they did for Fannie Mae, Chris Dodd and Barack Obama, they're doing for Hamas now. You can't win. All you can do is stay out of the news.

766 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:07:49am

re: #750 3 wood

If they do, I predict that the Bears "D" will give up over 400 yards, Orton will throw into triple coverage at least 4 times, and Devin Hester will run pass routes know only to himself.

I saw the Cowboys play the Bears one time in Chi and could believe how loud and vehement the fans were trashing the Bears....they were utterly relentless...there was a particular lady up behind us...loud and foul....FUCK YOU WANNIE! JUST FUCK YOU!...finally I looked back and she was older wearing furs and bling and obviously very well to do...wowzer...and on top of it the Bears played well and won the game!....

767 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:07:58am

re: #670 lifeofthemind
"This is very undemocratic."
It's the Chicago Way.
And the Democratic Party way (see, e.g., Al Franken).

768 3 wood  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:08:01am

U.K. banks still sitting on cash:

Chancellor Alistair Darling on brink of second bailout for banks

Alistair Darling has been forced to consider a second bailout for banks as the lending drought worsens.

The Chancellor will decide within weeks whether to pump billions more into the economy as evidence mounts that the £37 billion part-nationalisation last year has failed to keep credit flowing. Options include cash injections, offering banks cheaper state guarantees to raise money privately or buying up “toxic assets”, The Times has learnt.

The Bank of England revealed yesterday that, despite intense pressure, the banks curbed lending in the final quarter of last year and plan even tighter restrictions in the coming months. Its findings will alarm the Treasury.

The Bank is expected to take yet more aggressive action this week by cutting the base rate from its current level of 2 per cent. Doing so would reduce the cost of borrowing but have little effect on the availability of loans.

769 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:09:11am

After losing an eye while fighting in the British army during World War II, Moshe Dayan wore a distinctive eyepatch. One day, he was stopped for speeding by a military policeman. "I have only one eye," Dayan protested. "What do you want me to watch - the speedometer or the road!"

770 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:09:33am

Israel has started shelling Gaza.

771 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:09:53am

re: #680 rw in san diego
Good morning rw - thanks for that ROFL Link! How ya doing today?

772 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:10:54am

re: #683 HoosierHoops
Hey Hoops! How's it going? I reckon those Utes showed 'bama a thing or two about football!

773 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:11:23am

LOW INTELLIGENCE
THE COLONEL - Possess a different way of thinking
THE CAPTAIN - Has problems with some concepts
THE SERGEANT - Is a slow learner
THE CORPORAL - Has the I.Q. of a garden slug

774 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:11:26am

re: #770 Westward Ho

Israel has started shelling Gaza.

uh ho..I'm guessing something is starting

775 Scion9  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:12:09am

re: #748 Taqiyyotomist

The Islamic Society of Central Florida has a center in and all around Orlando. Their website seems pretty innocuous, but google turned up this fundraiser from 2004, that was allegedly or potentially a front for funneling money to Mujahideen.

776 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:12:20am

re: #768 3 wood

Economic observation:
On New Years Eve, my laptop power supply died, so I went to the Mall's Apple store for a replacement. Apple is not having a sale, the place was crowed and people were buying. In fact the entire mall was crowded as hell and people where buying.

Observation only, no data, but it didn't seem to me folks were in to big of a panic.

777 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:12:38am

re: #770 Westward Ho

Israel has started shelling Gaza.

Arty prep, it's on.

778 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:12:45am

re: #727 JamesTKirk

Search for "HTML ampersand codes"

That did it.

779 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:12:55am

re: #772 realwest

Hey Hoops! How's it going? I reckon those Utes showed 'bama a thing or two about football!

I was shocked at that game.
How are you today RW?

780 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:13:07am

Head scratcher of the week, mysteries of the unexplained, etc.

Thousands of shoes tie up Miami freeway traffic.

Nice pun, there, AP.

781 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:13:13am

re: #769 Dustyvet

Hey Dv how them stones going? Do you have any Vicadin left? Whats the next step if you don't pass those sharp little suckers.'

782 rain of lead  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:13:25am

question for the group.
how can the international community "force" a cease fire on Israel?
what is the pressure they mount to make Israel act not in their own best interest?
and why does Israel give a shit?

783 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:14:00am

re: #735 Geepers

legalpad (#723),

Special Characters.

Good one - marked it.

784 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:14:07am

re: #688 Spare O'Lake
Well as I admitted, my combat experience is limited to small unit tactics; but think, also (as Dustyvet pointed out) how this week's delay plays out on the IDF infantry and armor. Long waits can make for jangled nerves - well, more jangled than usual.
And has been oft noted, the longer this drags out a) the more time the MSM has to turn folks against Israel and b) the closer January 20 gets.

785 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:14:09am

re: #762 JCM

Your mouth to G-d's ear.
Hamas needs to cease to exist.

You mean a Cease-Breathe?

786 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:14:11am

re: #779 HoosierHoops

There will be some kind of play-off pretty soon.

787 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:14:11am

re: #775 Scion9

Thanks Scion.

788 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:14:40am

re: #252 Outrider

I'm as Conservative as they come; social and fiscal. And as strongly behind evolution and science as they come. There is nothing in Conservative values that state a person has to have evangelical beliefs and believe in literal Genesis to be considered a Conservative. Frankly I'm tired of being painted with that brush. ;-)>

AMEN!

789 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:15:23am

re: #788 Sharmuta

Morning Sharmuta. How you doing?

790 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:15:26am

re: #780 Taqiyyotomist

Head scratcher of the week, mysteries of the unexplained, etc.

Thousands of shoes tie up Miami freeway traffic.

Nice pun, there, AP.

Obviously, an anti-Bush, anti-America gesture by disaffected Muslims.

791 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:16:04am

C-Rations... A Love Story

I have to tell someone. Keeping it a secret all these years has taken its toll on my sanity. You're the only one I trust and hope you will understand. Don't judge me too harshly.

I was an Avionics consultant on H-34's and had a contractual agreement with Uncle Sam. Not a difficult assignment, but it almost paid well. Their headquarters in D.C. had asked if I'd go look at some problems in a quiet little place called Ky Ha, VIETNAM. Wouldn't take long I was told. So, I booked passage on the Princeton and arrived late in August. It was a hot, dusty little town without one decent restaurant and no bar. Picked up my blanket and looked for an empty embarkation box to sleep in. That night, under the gaze of a floating flare and the gentle, rhythmic sound of M-60's, I slept.

I'm not certain when it was that I first realized I was in love with C-Rations. It must have been a gradual thing because I never did go through that knock me out of my socks phase. I just seemed to wake up one morning, opened the box and it was there. I knew. C knew. As if the master plan of the universe had placed us together. Together! But, only for one of life's cruel short periods of time.

We both knew it was wrong. C came from a family of Flag Rank Officers, General Foods. And, me? I was just a kid from the south side of Memphis. Young and innocent. She was bright and shiny with the words PROPERTY OF THE U.S.GOVERNMENT stamped on her full, smooth, rounded sides. Cold to the touch but, oh so warm when held tightly over a flame. Whereas, I was just a piece of Marine trash in a dirty flight suit and unpolished boots. But, each time I saw C I fell deeper into the spell of her charms. It couldn't be simple heartburn.

I'd heard what men said about her. How her Ham & Limas were untouchable. Her Spaghetti needed seasoning. The saltpeter they had forced her to be with when she was young. The tasteless rolls and green cigarettes. It didn't matter. None of it mattered. I wanted her. Once I found her I wanted to protect her. To keep her from all those John Waynes and K-Bars they had used to open her. They didn't understand her. They didn't know C as I knew C. I loved her.

We had to steal our moments together. First we saw each other twice a day. Gradually, we grasped for more and more time. Anytime. Just to be with each other. For as I drew nearer to C, I could feel the emotions start from deep within my gut. My feelings would often run from both ends while knowing this was true love. The highs and lows of our love flowed together like nothing I'd ever experienced before. All I wanted to do was be with C. To Hell with the rest of the world.

Then it happened. Someone whispered a rumor. I heard it first in the four holer and later in the Green Garden Hose Shower Room. Nasty rumors which couldn't be true. They said C was going away. Her father had sent her an ultimatum. Either be on the 0600 Marlog or she was to be disinherited. She'd never be able to see her little brother roll of toilet paper again. Her teenage plastic spoon. Her aunt Fruit Cocktail. She had to choose between ME and her filthy rich, godforsaken family. Why did it have to come to this?

I tried all night to reach her on the field phone. Her new roommate, SPAM, didn't know where she was. I was frantic. I looked for her everywhere, but it was too late. She was gone. And with her went my heart and Kaeopectate. I was left with only the memories.

I'm older now and can afford to eat at almost any Burger King I want to. I no longer have a consulting contract with CMC, Inc. I still think about her though. The nights we spent together during the monsoons in our hardback tent. Just the two of us and eight of our closest friends. Whenever I reach for the Tabasco sauce I see C standing there with the moonlight glistening off her open top. The fragrance of her gravy still wisps through the air. She was so beautiful. And, for awhile, she was mine.

792 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:16:09am

re: #782 rain of lead

question for the group.
how can the international community "force" a cease fire on Israel?
what is the pressure they mount to make Israel act not in their own best interest?
and why does Israel give a shit?

/the United States supplies the majority of the weapons and ordnance

793 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:16:09am

re: #786 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There will be some kind of play-off pretty soon.

Well Obama is in favor of a play-off..
So let it be written so let it be done

794 Clemente  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:16:10am

re: #723 legalpad

Still looking for a good chart. Some of them aren't real direct.

For HTML codes, our kind host provides this link just under the comment form: How to enter special characters.Of course there are many others out there, too.

The table for your current Windows installation can be found in Start-Program Files-Accessories-System Tools-Character Map. Select the character of choice, copy, paste.

/fresh pot o'coffee in the break room ------>

795 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:16:19am

Looks like it was a misunderstanding with the Flying Muslims out of Regan.
Apparently one of the scarved woman wondered out loud which was the safest place on the plane. Two teenage girkls heard it & freaked. Sounds reasponable.
The FBI cleared the Muslims & Air Tran would not rebook them. Doesn't sound reasonable.
Here's the kicker, they said that they were on their way to Florida for a conference on the "Peaceful Practice of Islam"
Think about it, a workshop on how not to be a violent Muslim!

796 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:17:26am

re: #777 JCM


I can see various plumes of smoke in the dusk sky.

797 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:17:42am

re: #781 Erik The Red

Hey Dv how them stones going? Do you have any Vicadin left? Whats the next step if you don't pass those sharp little suckers.'

Two Vicadin left...looking at living room window of 5th floor apartment and considering taking the screen out...:P

798 Scion9  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:18:05am

re: #787 Taqiyyotomist

I don't know for sure that is where they were headed. Just speculation based on the size of that particular group in that particular area.

799 Render  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:18:47am

There is a very good chance that Israel will not go into Gaza, this time.

Contrary to current popular opinion it is quite possible to pound an enemy into submission, or at least into accepting dictated terms.

And there is quite a bit of historical precedent for that...

Linebacker II.

===

Currently there is a statement wandering through the Middle Eastern media purportedly from HAMAS leadership in Gaza to the Moslem Brotherhood leadership, apologizing for their failures in underestimating Israels current response and for dividing the Palestinian cause.

Take that with an enormous grain of salt considering the sources. But watch for HAMAS to quietly try to find a way out of the predicament they now find themselves in. It took a lot of effort and cash to build and stockpile all those homemade rockets, it took even more effort and cash to smuggle in the Iranian factory made copies of Chinese rockets.

They've already lost the majority of those rockets to Israeli air strikes.

The amount of heavy 120mm mortar fire dropped off over a month ago, when HAMAS realized that the poor quality of the shells and tubes was resulting in numerous hang-fires. (first round doesn't leave the tube, loader drops second round into the tube, mortar crew gets many unexpected raisins) I've seen at least four different videos of this happening just in the last month.

"Allah Akbar! Allah Ak -boom..."

===

Somebody got a problem with Call of Duty players?

WORLD
AT
WAR,
R

800 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:19:18am

re: #793 HoosierHoops

Well Obama is in favor of a play-off..
So let it be written so let it be done

I stand very strongly beside Barack H. Obama on this issue.

801 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:19:31am

re: #791 Dustyvet

I'd like to get your movie rights.

802 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:19:45am

re: #791 Dustyvet

OK you still have some left I see/

803 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:20:24am

Got another big fish in Gaza. from the AFP.

More than 30 air raids on Saturday hit Hamas targets across the densely populated territory.

One strike killed Mohammad al-Jammal, 40, who Gaza sources said was a Hamas military commander. Israel said he was responsible "for the entire rocket launching enterprise in all of Gaza City."

804 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:20:40am

Good morning, Lizards.

805 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:20:40am

re: #798 Scion9

Oh, I didn't think you were saying that. Just more info for the pile, and that's always good.

806 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:21:36am

re: #801 Luigi

I'd like to get your movie rights.

Talk to Realwest, he's my agent...:)

807 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:22:21am
808 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:22:44am

I'll have my people talk to his people..

809 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:22:45am

re: #791 Dustyvet

Wow - there's a writer. -

I loved her too. Traded the cigarettes for another can of main course. Stupid smokers./

810 rain of lead  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:22:51am

re: #792 Killian Bundy

/the United States supplies the majority of the weapons and ordnance

ok i get it if us said stop now or no more weapons
but what about the rest of the International community (spit)

811 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:23:08am

re: #746 apachegunner

but still in the support role as a civilian

I hope we will be able to say the same about Obama?

812 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:23:12am

re: #804 goddessoftheclassroom

{goddess} good morning.

813 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:23:47am

re: #803 Mich-again

Got another big fish in Gaza. from the AFP.

To me, the money quote in that article is this...

"About 80 percent of the 1.5 million population relies on international food aid."

What is wrong with this picture to start with?

814 Luigi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:24:15am

*/ have a nice day.

815 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:24:19am

Mornin' Goddess.

816 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:24:27am

re: #804 goddessoftheclassroom

Good morning, Lizards.

Ah Oh, Teach on boards. Look smart Lizards!

817 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:24:50am

re: #800 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I stand very strongly beside Barack H. Obama on this issue.

I must say that I do as well & hope for that change.

818 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:24:59am

That film 'Religulous' by Bill Maher is pretty good btw. Lots of good stuff on creationists, Islamists etc. I give it a solid 8/10.

Youtube Video
819 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:25:15am

re: #812 Erik The Red

{goddess} good morning.

{Erik the Red}
Good morning to you, too!

820 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:25:36am

Israeli artillery firing into Gaza, yet one more sign the ground pounders are going in.

The idea that Zahar and Haniyeh, who are just the lowest of terrorist scum being brought to justice warms the cockles of my heart. IDF look for the guy with the big mole on his nose!

821 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:25:47am

re: #815 Taqiyyotomist

Mornin' Goddess.

{Taqiyyotomist}! How are you this morning?

822 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:26:10am

Gaza's rocket-master killed? This cannot be good - now their accuracy can only improve.

823 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:26:55am

re: #759 Ayatollah Ghilmeini Thanks for those thoughts - I do hope you're correct about the timing here, cause tunnels or no tunnels (and I've had some experience in trying to clear or close tunnels) rockets are still landing in Israel, although you wouldn't know it from the MSM.

824 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:26:55am

Airstrike in Gaza Reportedly Kills Senior Hamas Leader

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I wonder if he is really a "leader" or a leader like Junior Saprano was?

825 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:27:25am

re: #799 Render

And there is quite a bit of historical precedent for that...

Linebacker II

Youtube Video

/852 days later

826 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:27:58am

re: #820 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Israeli artillery firing into Gaza, yet one more sign the ground pounders are going in.

The idea that Zahar and Haniyeh, who are just the lowest of terrorist scum being brought to justice warms the cockles of my heart. IDF look for the guy with the big mole on his nose!

Prayers for the safety and success of all the brave soldiers of Israel!

827 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:28:29am

gotta go lizards..
The wife wants to prop up the US economy again...

828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:28:31am

Just got a cool invite!

OUT!

829 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:29:08am

re: #825 Killian Bundy

[Video]

/852 days later

I sure hope the targets are not being picked at the Prime Minister's office like we did in Vietnam?

830 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:29:13am

re: #827 HoosierHoops

Later 2H

831 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:29:18am

re: #761 rw in san diego
I am sorry, rw, but - except where my Giants are concerned - I call 'em as I see 'em! LOL!
But hey - I've been wrong much more often than I've been right on these things - don't give up hope!

832 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:30:03am

re: #827 HoosierHoops

gotta go lizards..
The wife wants to prop up the US economy again...

{HoosierHoops}

Have a great day!

833 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:30:22am

re: #831 realwest

I am sorry, rw, but - except where my Giants are concerned - I call 'em as I see 'em! LOL!
But hey - I've been wrong much more often than I've been right on these things - don't give up hope!

{realwest{
How are you doing today?

834 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:31:00am

re: #764 Killian Bundy
Yep.

835 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:31:19am

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is urging key world leaders to intensify efforts to achieve an immediate Israel-Hamas cease-fire that includes international monitors to enforce a truce and possibly to protect Palestinian civilians, a UN official said Friday.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

But fuck the Israeli civilians, is that it?

836 FrogMarch  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:31:36am

Son of Hamas Leader Converts to Christianity, Speaks Out Against Hamas

(media yawn)

837 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:32:22am

fuck the UN
fuck the EU
Israel will live.
Hamas will die.
Let's allow Israel to do the job in its own way and at its own pace.
BBL

838 razorbacker  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:32:36am

re: #792 Killian Bundy

/the United States supplies the majority of the weapons and ordnance

I saw on StrategyPage last week that the US had rush delivered a mass quantity of new generation guided bombs with a smaller warhead but deeper penetration before explosion.

Gonna have to burrow a little deeper, fellows.

839 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:32:49am

Went to see "Marley & Me" yesterday. I really enjoyed the book & the movie does not disappoint.
If you have had dogs this movie will speak to you.

840 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:32:50am

So how are the Iranians going to send supplies to their army in Gaza now? And I wonder if they will order their other army in Southern Lebanon to try to distract the IDF.

841 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:33:30am

re: #810 rain of lead

ok i get it if us said stop now or no more weapons
but what about the rest of the International community (spit)

/they pressure our moonbats to pressure our government and Obama's on deck, so it will be much easier

842 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:34:07am

re: #773 Dustyvet
Ah, well maybe, but you can reverse all of those perfectly with regard to personal exposure to death or dismemberment is concerned.

843 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:34:35am

{goddess} Doing ok. Still blowing the nose every 10 minutes. But coffee's in the system and I'm alive.

Wondering if I can get a job online. I think I can. My neighbor, and the landlord's son, works for a game co, and may be able to get me in. I just hope I can figure out how to get a bank account. Owing a couple of bills makes something called CreditChex (sp) give me a little file that makes banks tell me, "No you cannot have a bank account, not for seven years or so." I'm going to sit down (hopefully) with a manager of a Credit Union, which, I am told is not like a typical bank and doesn't have their policy strictly tied to this CreditChex thingy, and see if I can do it. If I can't get direct deposit, I'm probably not going to get a job online.

Owe approx $1500 total. No bank account for you! Meanwhile, people who go bankrupt and default on $300,000 home loans can get multiple bank accounts. The system likes to keep people at the bottom, on the bottom. IMHO. (It's why police departments would rather have their cruisers pull over junkers and not BMWs. The BMW driver will pay once and be done with it in a day. The junker driver is likely to be put "into the system" for a good while, ensuring work for hundreds, from clerks to lawyers to counsellors....I'm cynical. I know.)

:)

844 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:35:38am

re: #779 HoosierHoops
I'm doing ok, Hoops, thanks for asking.
And I have to say I was a little bit surprised by Utah, but I did have them as my pick.

845 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:35:49am

re: #702 JCM

Of course, the only question is: is the report that he was holding a gun accurate. It probably is, though I didn't find how many saw when he was apprehended, why "neighbors" called it in, etc. Usual fact-less reporting.

846 FrogMarch  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:35:51am

Are Asshole leftards going to whine about the "Geneva conventions"?
because Hamas says: We Will Kidnap Israeli Soldiers If a Ground War Begins


It would be a capture of enemy combatants rather than a kidnapping if Hamas observed the Geneva Conventions, but of course they don't. Only US and Israel are bound by those.


[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

847 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:37:06am

re: #835 nevergiveup

But fuck the Israeli civilians, is that it?

Yes, that is indeed 'it'. Who was the woman in the Obama campaign who has said we should invade Israel? God have mercy on the USA if we do. I'm guessing He will not, given what He has said regarding our support of Israel.

848 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:37:25am

re: #791 Dustyvet

Ahhhhhhhh, Ham and Muthers, Pound cake and peaches, life was good.

849 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:37:25am

re: #843 Taqiyyotomist

I can't believe a bank would deny a person a straight deposit account!
Anyway, the credit union angle is a stroke of brilliance. KEEP FIGHTING!

850 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:37:37am

re: #829 nevergiveup

I sure hope the targets are not being picked at the Prime Minister's office like we did in Vietnam?

It's the principle. Linebacker II walloped the [expletive deleted] out of North Vietnam with B-52s, you can't even make a realistic comparison to what Israel is now doing to Gaza.

/put a hitch in their get along but never stopped them

851 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:38:07am

re: #839 opnion

Went to see "Marley & Me" yesterday. I really enjoyed the book & the movie does not disappoint.
If you have had dogs this movie will speak to you.

I got 3 cats?

852 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:38:57am

re: #848 MarineGrunt

Ahhhhhhhh, Ham and Muthers, Pound cake and peaches, life was good.


LOL, Now if i could only get the person it was intended for to read it...:)

853 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:39:14am

re: #848 MarineGrunt

Ahhhhhhhh, Ham and Muthers, Pound cake and peaches, life was good.


Tell me that your kidding. You had to hate ham & mothers.
Meatballs & beans was good.

854 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:39:47am

re: #851 nevergiveup

I got 3 cats?

Then you must enjoy these!

855 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:40:01am

re: #845 legalpad

Of course, the only question is: is the report that he was holding a gun accurate. It probably is, though I didn't find how many saw when he was apprehended, why "neighbors" called it in, etc. Usual fact-less reporting.

More info here...

856 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:41:08am

re: #791 Dustyvet
Dusty - that was so, so................moving. Unlike the C-rats, themselves.
Didja write that yourself or pick it up out of an old Readers Digest "Humor in Uniform"?!

857 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:41:23am

bbl all, God Bless ya's.

858 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:41:39am

re: #851 nevergiveup

I got 3 cats?

Still a good story about a family pet. Marley was an unruly, destructive , lovable dog.

859 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:43:44am

re: #791 Dustyvet

C-Rationsre: #791 Dustyvet

All the C-Rations you can eat, Ham and Muthers too

860 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:44:33am

re: #804 goddessoftheclassroom Hey, good morning {goddess} - how are you today?

861 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:45:17am

re: #854 goddessoftheclassroom

Then you must enjoy these!

My wife throws bread and other treats on our deck off the family room and many of the neighborhood squirrels come to feast. Our cats love it. We call it cat TV.

862 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:45:22am

re: #855 JCM

More info here...

they took away his toy then gave it back....suicide?

863 rw in san diego  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:45:43am

BBL. Have a great day, everybody.

864 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:46:10am

re: #859 MarineGrunt

C-Rationsre: #791 Dustyvet

All the C-Rations you can eat, Ham and Muthers too

Wow! Look at all those naked C-Rats...:)

865 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:46:21am
In the 1980’s, however, paleontologists digging in deposits more than 65 million years old in northern China found feathered dinosaurs which very definitely did not fly.

Amazing what you can find when you go digging in the dirt.

Speaking of which: are there any new developments in the Blago case? I've been rationing my exposure to the news in preparation for a complete fast to coincide with the BO coronation so I'm (blissfully) somewhat out of touch with current events.

/Good Morning Everybody!

866 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:46:44am

re: #847 Taqiyyotomist

That would be Samantha Power. She spent some time under Obama's bus for calling Hillary Clinton a monster, but she's back in the bus for now at least.

867 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:46:47am

re: #862 albusteve

they took away his toy then gave it back....suicide?

Drunk and stupid, IMHO.

868 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:47:26am

re: #853 opnion

Loved Ham and Muthers, plenty of them, since no one else ate them

869 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:04am

re: #855 JCM

More info here...

Well, that does it. Drunk and firing a weapon in an alley. Duh. I've never been so drunk that I didn't know what to do when uniformed, armed guys who could call more guys with guns and helicopters, all paid for by my tax money, told me something. I'll bet the guy never went hunting.

870 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:05am

re: #859 MarineGrunt

C-Rationsre: #791 Dustyvet

All the C-Rations you can eat, Ham and Muthers too

Thank you all for your service and thank G_d you survived the battles and that food.(subsidence may be a better word)

871 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:24am

re: #843 Taqiyyotomist

Still blowing the nose every 10 minutes.

Youtube Video

/neti pots are awesome for nasal congestion/allergies!

872 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:30am

Interesting tidbit from the bottom of a Ynet story

As far as Iran is concerned, an offensive in Gaza points to Israel's weakness. Following his visit to Syria, Jalili is expected to continue to Lebanon for a series of meetings with the country's senior officials.

By senior officials, they mean Hexbollah.

873 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:31am

re: #868 MarineGrunt

Loved Ham and Muthers, plenty of them, since no one else ate them

They sure beat Ham and Eggs chopped.

874 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:51am

Scientists have finally discovered what the last turtle sits on...

875 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:48:59am

re: #806 Dustyvet
Oh, yeah - you've got some vicodin left ok; whaddya do, sneak a few into a special hiding place "just in case"?!? LOL!

876 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:49:18am

Bush: Hamas attacks are acts of terror

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Memo to my Fellow jews: You will rue the day you helped put Obama in office. President Bush will go down as one the greatest supporters of Israel in History.

877 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:49:52am

re: #869 legalpad

Well, that does it. Drunk and firing a weapon in an alley. Duh. I've never been so drunk that I didn't know what to do when uniformed, armed guys who could call more guys with guns and helicopters, all paid for by my tax money, told me something. I'll bet the guy never went hunting.

Doesn't sound like a serious shooter, just a memorabilia collector.

878 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:50:34am

re: #835 nevergiveup
"But fuck the Israeli civilians, is that it?" Yep, I'm afraid so.

879 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:50:40am

re: #864 Dustyvet

Wow! Look at all those naked C-Rats...:)

I liked browsing those pics...I always wondered..
thanks

880 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:50:50am

Good Morning All!
This from mere rhetoric :

Israel is Dropping Leaflets Over Gaza Telling Residents
To Evacuate
[Link: www.mererhetoric.com...]

Has the torrential rainfall stopped there?
Anyone know?

881 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:51:27am

re: #874 goddessoftheclassroom

Scientists have finally discovered what the last turtle sits on...

HERESY!
BURN the HERETIC!
It's Turtle ALL the way Done!

No furballs!

/

ROFL!

882 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:51:37am

re: #874 goddessoftheclassroom

Scientists have finally discovered what the last turtle sits on...


That cat does not look amused!

883 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:51:42am

re: #833 goddessoftheclassroom Hi {goddess} I'm doing ok, thanks! Hope you're having a good weekend!

884 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:52:43am

re: #875 realwest

Oh, yeah - you've got some vicodin left ok; whaddya do, sneak a few into a special hiding place "just in case"?!? LOL!

One thing I'll about the CA, when they load you up on Meds, you stayloaded up...:)

885 legalpad  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:52:54am

re: #877 JCM

Doesn't sound like a serious shooter, just a memorabilia collector.

Right. A non-gun person. Non-gun people play with guns. Shooters don't. They see the damage they can do, and know that it can cross the line separating us from Hell with a twitch of a finger.

886 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:53:42am

Morning has broken... someone fix it please.

It's 24 degrees in the Denver Metro area and they are predicting 2-6 inches of snow by Sunday. Of course, the amount of snowfall keeps changing every 15 minutes.

Wind chill should be a global warm -2 tonight. It would make Al Gore proud.

Ha, snow and I got a concert rental at the theatre tonight. And this is a "private" rental, not booked through our regular concert agent. Some local dude called "Travis and his Friends." They tell me it's a folk-rock act. But his posters, well, it's a line drawing of his bust, very "goth" and scary looking. I suggested to our producer that the Travis should be calling the event "Travis Eats his Friends."

And I'm also been given the heads up that he attracts a younger crowd than most of our concerts do. That means check ID's at the door and stamp hands before they even get into the lobby.

Golden police has been doing a lot of "stings" lately around town, trying to catch businesses not properly IDing.

Any one else looking forward to babysitting a room full of 136 twenty-something's with access to a full cash bar?

This is way out of the type of rentals we normally host.

887 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:53:58am

re: #873 Dustyvet

They sure beat Ham and Eggs chopped.

By accident, we got an entire case of modern MRE's after Gustav blew through.

Daughter needed to go to Wal-Mart, got into the supply line by accident - they just opened her car door and threw in the case of MRE's and 2 blue tarps.

We've opened 2 of them - there's enough food in one of those for a full meal, and a substantial "snack" later.

888 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:54:12am

re: #865 CIA Reject

Amazing what you can find when you go digging in the dirt.

Speaking of which: are there any new developments in the Blago case? I've been rationing my exposure to the news in preparation for a complete fast to coincide with the BO coronation so I'm (blissfully) somewhat out of touch with current events.

/Good Morning Everybody!

Yeah , the Illinois House is going to try to fast track impeachment this week. They want the Senate to remove him quick so that the Lt Governor can name a replacement & untrack Roland Burris.
Burris plans to be at the U.S Senate on Tuesday to attempt to be seated. He is requested to appear before the Il House on Wednesday to testify to the impeachment committee.

889 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:55:42am

re: #888 opnion

Yeah , the Illinois House is going to try to fast track impeachment this week. They want the Senate to remove him quick so that the Lt Governor can name a replacement & untrack Roland Burris.
Burris plans to be at the U.S Senate on Tuesday to attempt to be seated. He is requested to appear before the Il House on Wednesday to testify to the impeachment committee.

Also Home Land Security has withdrawn his security clearance, so if there is an alert, I guess that means Illinois is screwed?

890 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:56:06am

re: #843 Taqiyyotomist
Huh, don't know where you live, but credit checks have nothing to do with opening a bank account - cash, or cashier's checks will open one for ya - it's the overdraft checking coverage that banks use creditchex (and other credit reporting agencies) for. Ya can't withdraw more money than you have in the bank, so you should be able to open an account with say $25.00.

891 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:57:06am

re: #848 MarineGrunt

Semper Fi, Gyrene....I missed them as well....MRE's just weren't the same thing.....:>(

892 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:57:48am

re: #886 Walter L. Newton

If it makes all you in the north feel any better I am sitting by the pool in mid 80 temp. drinking cold beer and following the thread.

893 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:58:03am

re: #835 nevergiveup

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is urging key world leaders to intensify efforts to achieve an immediate Israel-Hamas cease-fire that includes international monitors to enforce a truce and possibly to protect Palestinian civilians, a UN official said Friday.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

But fuck the Israeli civilians, is that it?


Israel doesn't require Ban Ki-moon's sentiments. Or the UN's or the EU's or anyone's.... Israel needs to just not answer the phone until this OVER the way Israel sees best for her and Gaza!

894 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:58:30am

re: #889 nevergiveup

Also Home Land Security has withdrawn his security clearance, so if there is an alert, I guess that means Illinois is screwed?


Blago actually spends most of his time in Chicago not Springfield. Mayor Daley has a gun ban , so no terrorist can be armed in Chicago!

895 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:58:47am

re: #892 Erik The Red

If it makes all you in the north feel any better I am sitting by the pool in mid 80 temp. drinking cold beer and following the thread.

Colder then a witch's broom in Illinois.

896 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:58:54am

re: #789 Erik The Red

Good morning, Erik. Glad to see lol on Fruitcup duty.

897 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:59:02am

re: #873 Dustyvet

Recently "Liberated" C-Rations, Marines got to eat.

898 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:59:22am

re: #893 notutopia

Israel doesn't require Ban Ki-moon's sentiments. Or the UN's or the EU's or anyone's.... Israel needs to just not answer the phone until this OVER the way Israel sees best for her and Gaza!

I agree but they can answer the phone from President Bush. He will be supportive. But I would seriously consider changing their number come Jan 19th.

899 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:59:40am

re: #868 MarineGrunt
Crap - we'd chuck Ham and muthers to the Vietnamese kids along the road, chasing after our trucks for something.......................and they threw 'em back! LOL!

900 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:59:53am

re: #897 MarineGrunt

Recently "Liberated" C-Rations, Marines got to eat.

Oh so it was you guys that got our supply convoy...:)

901 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:59:57am

re: #890 realwest

Huh, don't know where you live, but credit checks have nothing to do with opening a bank account - cash, or cashier's checks will open one for ya - it's the overdraft checking coverage that banks use creditchex (and other credit reporting agencies) for. Ya can't withdraw more money than you have in the bank, so you should be able to open an account with say $25.00.

My credit union requires $50 to open an account.

but Taq - a credit union for people with simple needs (like moi) is a better option than a bank, imo. A CU is set up to serve people, while many banks nowadays prefer bigger accounts, like those of businesses.

902 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:00:07am

One interesting thing I found out watching Religulous: crazy evangeligal creationism hustler Ted Haggard - the one who was such an asshole towards Richard Dawkins in his video on science and religion - has a penchant for gay sex with male prostitutes and hard drugs. More on this prick here:

Youtube Video

and here he is lying his face off about it, followd by an interview with the male prostitute concerned:

Youtube Video

What a piece of work!

903 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:00:27am

and now it's time to play: Spot the loony

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

Wow

904 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:00:43am

Dusty,

When one is cold, wet, scared, hungry, and lonely... a can if C-Rats can be better than the best 5 star restaurant in the world.

Back in a bit...

905 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:01:01am

re: #896 Sharmuta

I wasn't here. I made yesterday and still have plenty left. No one wanted/hated the batch.
Good to see you. Have you been lying low lately?

906 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:01:33am

re: #859 MarineGrunt


Bookmarked! Just Curious, how many others (besides me) have a GOLD PLATED P-38?

907 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:01:42am

re: #899 realwest

Crap - we'd chuck Ham and muthers to the Vietnamese kids along the road, chasing after our trucks for something.......................and they threw 'em back! LOL!

pretty funny!

908 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:01:43am

re: #874 goddessoftheclassroom

Scientists have finally discovered what the last turtle sits on...

lol- cute.

909 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:02:00am

re: #899 realwest

Crap - we'd chuck Ham and muthers to the Vietnamese kids along the road, chasing after our trucks for something.......................and they threw 'em back! LOL!

Realwest, do you remember those Tropical Hershey Bars that came in Sundries packs? We'd toss the things to the kids, they'd toss them back.

910 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:02:25am

re: #889 nevergiveup

Also Home Land Security has withdrawn his security clearance, so if there is an alert, I guess that means Illinois is screwed?

Actually it means that Blago gets to learn about security concerns from the mainstream media, who will either trumpet "The sky is falling!" or "We're all dooooooooooooomed! Dooooomed, I tell ya!"

Talk about being scared straight!

911 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:02:37am

re: #904 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Dusty,

When one is cold, wet, scared, hungry, and lonely... a can if C-Rats can be better than the best 5 star restaurant in the world.

Back in a bit...

Yup!

912 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:02:59am

re: #899 realwest

Crap - we'd chuck Ham and muthers to the Vietnamese kids along the road, chasing after our trucks for something.......................and they threw 'em back! LOL!

Real, I shocked and saddened that you would admit to such a crime! Throwing Ham and muthers to kids! WMiD! (Weapons of Mass inDigestion)

913 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:03:02am

re: #892 Erik The Red

If it makes all you in the north feel any better I am sitting by the pool in mid 80 temp. drinking cold beer and following the thread.

No, don't get me wrong, I LOVE the cold and snow. Hell, I just live two miles from the theatre where I work. The snow makes it a little messy in the downstairs lobby, and it's a bitch for a band to load in when equipment is getting wet, but otherwise, it doesn't effect me.

I'm more concerned with the twenty-something crowd this act is going to attract. Our normal live theatre crowd and concert crowds averages over 40, and even the younger patrons for our plays are rather reserved.

This is an all out local act, young, college aged and barely none of the patron's will be from our regular "stable" of customers.

914 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:03:25am

re: #891 Pietr

I have some of the early MREs given to me by a National Guard friend they suck big time.
Cs rule.

915 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:04:27am

re: #903 Jewels (AKA Julian)

and now it's time to play: Spot the loony

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

Wow

ROTFLMAO! Too much Islamic kool aid rots the brain!

916 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:04:30am

re: #888 opnion

Thanks for the update - I guess this Burris guy was the high bidder eh?

917 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:04:46am

Is it just me or is anyone else getting Obama fatigue? He hasn't even taken office yet & he is getting old. He & his family are all over the newspapers & magazine covers & his radio adresses are getting tedious.
The TV newsies are gushing all over him. Enough!

918 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:04:50am

re: #899 realwest

Hot Sauce did wonders to Ham and Muthers

919 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:04:55am

re: #903 Jewels (AKA Julian)

They should be playing "How not to bee seen".

920 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:05:15am

re: #904 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Dusty,

When one is cold, wet, scared, hungry, and lonely... a can if C-Rats can be better than the best 5 star restaurant in the world.

Back in a bit...

When ever we go out into the field with the Marines, they feed us real good. I got no complaints, except a brewsci or 2 wouldn't be bad?

921 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:05:22am

re: #913 Walter L. Newton

No, don't get me wrong, I LOVE the cold and snow. Hell, I just live two miles from the theatre where I work. The snow makes it a little messy in the downstairs lobby, and it's a bitch for a band to load in when equipment is getting wet, but otherwise, it doesn't effect me.

I'm more concerned with the twenty-something crowd this act is going to attract. Our normal live theatre crowd and concert crowds averages over 40, and even the younger patrons for our plays are rather reserved.

This is an all out local act, young, college aged and barely none of the patron's will be from our regular "stable" of customers.

Look on the bright side. Should push the bar sales up.

922 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:05:27am

re: #889 nevergiveup
Huh? I didn't think Burris' security clearance had been pulled - assuming he had one in the first place; and hell if Obama could get a security clearance........oh, wait, this is Chicago!
nevermind.

923 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:06:09am

re: #914 MarineGrunt

I have some of the early MREs given to me by a National Guard friend they suck big time.
Cs rule.

At summer tranning in 1986, we where issued MRE's, we had to uncase the whole load and pull the MRE's with chicken in them. 500 cases of the damn things had to be searched.

924 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:06:21am

re: #919 unclassifiable

They should be playing "How not to bee seen".

And Alabama should have whipped Utah like a misbehaving stepchild last night. THAT didn't happen, either!

925 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:06:38am

re: #900 Dustyvet

LOL, not us, must have been those Marines standing over there.

926 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:06:41am

re: #917 opnion

Is it just me or is anyone else getting Obama fatigue? He hasn't even taken office yet & he is getting old. He & his family are all over the newspapers & magazine covers & his radio adresses are getting tedious.
The TV newsies are gushing all over him. Enough!

Do what I do. The minute I see or hear him or they talk about him, I turn the channel.

927 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:07:12am

re: #921 Erik The Red

Look on the bright side. Should push the bar sales up.

That's the only reason the producer booked this. We get an upfront 350 for the rental and a 200 deposit on bar sales. We don't loose.

928 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:07:17am

re: #922 realwest

Huh? I didn't think Burris' security clearance had been pulled - assuming he had one in the first place; and hell if Obama could get a security clearance........oh, wait, this is Chicago!
nevermind.

Blago's

929 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:07:27am

re: #893 notutopia
Um, Killian Bundy indicated upthread somewhere that Israel still gets a lot of it's munitions and equipment from the US - that's yet another reason for them to answer the phone before January 20, 2009.

930 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:07:29am

re: #917 opnion

Is it just me or is anyone else getting Obama fatigue? He hasn't even taken office yet & he is getting old. He & his family are all over the newspapers & magazine covers & his radio adresses are getting tedious.
The TV newsies are gushing all over him. Enough!

might be a good thing....maybe people will get ornery sooner or later having him in their face 24/7....especially when he's finally exposed for an idiot instead of a savior...

931 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:07:50am

re: #924 SteveC

What did the Utes have? 17 sacks. That was a beatdown.

932 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:08:13am

re: #925 MarineGrunt

LOL, not us, must have been those Marines standing over there.

My CO, just wants the trucks back, you can keep the XO... and his jeep.:)

933 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:08:42am

re: #904 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

When one is cold, wet, scared, hungry, and lonely... a can if C-Rats can be better than the best 5 star restaurant in the world.

A glob of C-4 would speed things along.

934 Miss Trixie  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:08:46am

&#9834 &#9836 Good morning, {lizards!} &#9836 &#9834

{realwest} Happy to see you today *smoochie* :D

Goddess - this is for you.

935 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:08:47am

re: #926 nevergiveup

Do what I do. The minute I see or hear him or they talk about him, I turn the channel.


Or what I do...Don't turn on the TV at all!
Radio is preset for Rush and that's about it for broadcasting in our home.

936 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:09:17am

When the IDF starts lobbing 155mm shells that is an escalation.

Unless you are in a heavily armored vehicle or a properly fortified position, when precise artillery starts landing, you die. Even well trained troops exposed to artillery are too shaken up to be effective after bombardment.

This is yet another clear sign of wide open rules of engagement consistent with a full ground operation that ends when Hamas is defeated.

It is exactly what you do before sending in ground troops to take heavily defended territory.

If I were Hamas I would be crying Uncle fast because they will never recover from what will be done in the next few days. That in turn raises the greater question of how the "brave" "resistance" "fighters" of Hezbollah stand by and watch their bestest pals in Hamas get eviscerated tossed on the ash heap of history without so much as a fart from Hezboland.

The Iranians face a huge problem, they put huge resources and prestige behind their over alliance with Hezbollah, if they don't act to take pressure off Hamas, the value of alliance with Iran becomes next to worthless but if they do anything, it risks Israel widening the war and puts Iran's entire anti-Israel resistance strategy at risk. A single act over the northern border will turn the IDF loose on Hezbollah. This is the ultimate terrorist gut check. As if the trigger were not already half pulled, any of the worthless Jihadis who actually believe the crap Iran spews, might pull the trigger for them and effectively make Iran's decision for them. This too factors into their options: assume war will happen anyhow and just hit Israel with everything and then demand cease fire or do nothing. There are really no half measures other than terror attacks out of the region. Iran is pushed by Israel's timeline, the longer they wait, the more they are seen as weak and bad allies.

937 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:09:32am

Barack Obama's silence on Gaza bombings is galling to Arabs

/Obama golfs while Gaza burns

938 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:09:54am

re: #929 realwest

Um, Killian Bundy indicated upthread somewhere that Israel still gets a lot of it's munitions and equipment from the US - that's yet another reason for them to answer the phone before January 20, 2009.

That's on a friendly dedicated line.
: )

939 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:10:01am

re: #903 Jewels (AKA Julian)

and now it's time to play: Spot the loony

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

Wow

I think I'm beginning to realise why the aliens have been giving this planet a wide berth.

940 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:10:26am

re: #926 nevergiveup

Do what I do. The minute I see or hear him or they talk about him, I turn the channel.

"Obama..." *click*

"President Elect..." *click*

"Michelle..." *click*

"Historic Inauguration..." *click*

"Sparky the Presidential Wonderpup..." *click*

DAMN! *Throws remote at TV*

941 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:11:00am

re: #904 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret) Hey LT!

When one is cold, wet, scared, hungry, and lonely... a can if C-Rats can be better than the best 5 star restaurant in the world.


Uh, not if said 5 star restaurant is dry and not in any danger of rocket, mortar or sapper attacks!

942 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:11:29am

re: #916 CIA Reject

Thanks for the update - I guess this Burris guy was the high bidder eh?

If he does not accept the invitation to testify to the impeachment committee they are talking about a subpoena. This is going to get real interesting

943 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:11:57am

re: #937 Killian Bundy

Barack Obama's silence on Gaza bombings is galling to Arabs

/Obama golfs while Gaza burns

Well give the poor guy a break, he is in the process of moving to the Hey-Adams Hotel: [Link: www.hayadams.com...]

Is that were Elliot Spitzer stayed?

944 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:12:09am

re: #936 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Love your updates. I look for them every day.

945 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:12:29am

re: #918 MarineGrunt

Hot Sauce did wonders to Ham and Muthers

They were beyond redemption. Boots tasted better.

946 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:12:47am

FOX NEWS ALERT!

Israeli vehicles crossing the border in force according to witnesses.

/no official confirmation, time check

947 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:13:17am

re: #937 Killian Bundy

Barack Obama's silence on Gaza bombings is galling to Arabs

/Obama golfs while Gaza burns

haha!...Oboy has no clue....this is where two fools met....the LLL has to be crapping right now...rich boy goofing off at the country club and all...

948 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:13:37am

re: #931 unclassifiable

What did the Utes have? 17 sacks. That was a beatdown.

Like Don Henley sang,

"...I hear the sirens wail;
Tide's going to Emergency;
Utah's going to Jail.
In a Sugar Bowl minute,
everything can change..."

949 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:13:47am

Israel just nailed another mosque.

950 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:13:55am

re: #946 Killian Bundy

FOX NEWS ALERT!

Israeli vehicles crossing the border in force according to witnesses.

/no official confirmation, time check

God go with them.

951 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:14:00am

re: #944 Mich-again

Love your updates. I look for them every day.

I second that...better than anything else I can find by far....

952 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:14:02am

re: #936 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

You are an LGF Treasure.

953 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:14:05am

re: #940 SteveC

"Obama..." *click*

"President Elect..." *click*

"Michelle..." *click*

"Historic Inauguration..." *click*

"Sparky the Presidential Wonderpup..." *click*

DAMN! *Throws remote at TV*


Throw The TV AWAY! I'm MAD AS HELL and I'm Not Going To Take This Anymore!

Youtube Video
954 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:14:35am

re: #907 albusteve
Funny, yes, but also true - and that's no lie!
Less of course they supported Charlie cause once you empty the big can, cut off top and bottom, you've got a great improvised booby trap (just add hand grenade, with pin pulled but held in place by can, tie wire to head of grenade, run said wire down the side of a tree and across a trail some dumb sonofabitch will use and BLAMMO)!

955 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:15:08am

re: #950 goddessoftheclassroom

God go with them.

And we could also use a modern day King David!

956 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:15:13am

re: #946 Killian Bundy

FOX NEWS ALERT!

Israeli vehicles crossing the border in force according to witnesses.

/no official confirmation, time check

show time!....go IDF and God bless you all....

957 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:15:22am

re: #932 Dustyvet

LOL, truck, what truck, we got the "mule" quicker and more maneuverable.

958 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:15:29am

re: #938 notutopia

That's on a friendly dedicated line.
: )

Youtube Video

/think so, after the 20th?

959 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:15:35am

re: #941 realwest

Damn, RW-you know exactly what VMP(1Lt) was saying-and made a funny. I'll leave it at that-tho I understand trying to humorize the times......

960 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:15:41am

re: #909 Dustyvet
Nope, afraid not Dusty - my loss of memory over the years hasn't entirely been without benefit! LOL!

961 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:16:13am

re: #955 nevergiveup

And we could also use a modern day King David!

Samson would be good, too.

962 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:17:37am

re: #918 MarineGrunt
Not enough hot sauce in the WORLD for me, I'm afraid.
Now meatballs and beans - that was fine dining!

963 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:17:46am

re: #952 Sharmuta

thanks very much, you are too kind.

964 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:17:52am

Twitter says troops in Gaza!

(Grain of salt... it's twitter)

965 nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:18:10am

re: #961 goddessoftheclassroom

Samson would be good, too.

My cats are named Solomon Samson and Sidd

966 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:18:24am

re: #945 opnion

Ham and Muthers just got a bad rap, they were good if only given the chance. ;)

967 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:18:48am

re: #947 albusteve

haha!...Oboy has no clue....this is where two fools met....the LLL has to be crapping right now...rich boy goofing off at the country club and all...

God Speed IDF!

968 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:19:22am

re: #964 SteveC

Twitter says troops in Gaza!

(Grain of salt... it's twitter)

/second confirmation

969 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:19:44am

re: #917 opnion
Good morning opnion! That's why the mute button was invented!
Still think whoever invented the mute button on the TV remote should get a Nobel Peace Prize!

970 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:19:55am

Some facts in this peacenik press release

971 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:20:31am

re: #965 nevergiveup

Hmmm...he/she has the "S" class in cats.....No offense, I have two torties, and used to raise/breed/show Havanas and Birmans.....:>)

972 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:20:57am

re: #963 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

thanks very much, you are too kind.

No- I'm being honest. You give us intelligent, insightful analysis, and it's what we crave in these days of anti-Israel media. Thank you for your part in making LGF the best place to keep informed and support Israel.

973 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:21:10am

re: #966 MarineGrunt

Ham and Muthers just got a bad rap, they were good if only given the chance. ;)

I tried everything to make them edible, hot sauce & onion if you could get it. Couldn't eat them.
I say serve them to our guests at Gitmo.

974 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:21:54am

re: #937 Killian Bundy

Barack Obama's silence on Gaza bombings is galling to Arabs

/Obama golfs while Gaza burns

WTF? He is not President yet. Only,as his podium says, The Office of The President Elect. Whats up with that btw? I have never seen that before. God bless us and protect us after the 20 Jan. We are sure going to need it.

975 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:21:54am

re: #971 Pietr

Hmmm...he/she has the "S" class in cats.....No offense, I have two torties, and used to raise/breed/show Havanas and Birmans.....:>)

Yup all us boys in the family have names that start with S and all gthe girls with A

976 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:22:23am

re: #954 realwest

Ran into a few of them, second deadliest to bouncing bettys.

977 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:22:47am

re: #934 Miss Trixie
Hey there {Miss Trixie}! How are you today, gorgeous?
Oh and lots of *smoooches* back to you!

978 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:23:09am

Here's the comment of the day, from Twitter:

"Hamas ought to stop farting in fields lest they have their asses blown off."

979 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:23:19am

re: #969 realwest

Good morning opnion! That's why the mute button was invented!
Still think whoever invented the mute button on the TV remote should get a Nobel Peace Prize!

Hi Real, from Illinois, ground zero in ethical politics.

This Obama over saturation is annoying. I do believe that the fall will be hard.

980 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:23:56am

IDF reportedly strikes Hamas newspaper offices

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Or as it's also know: NYT's bureau in Gaza

981 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:24:02am

Hamas looking for hostages

982 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:25:14am

re: #981 SteveC

Hamas looking for hostages

Well it's not like the Israelis aren't aware of that.

983 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:26:22am

re: #946 Killian Bundy
WOOT! Great news - if true!

984 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:26:26am

re: #974 Erik The Red

WTF? He is not President yet. Only,as his podium says, The Office of The President Elect. Whats up with that btw? I have never seen that before. God bless us and protect us after the 20 Jan. We are sure going to need it.

he's pissing people off....that's all that matters...he put himself in this position now he's eatin a waffle....

985 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:26:39am

Pray Now...Pray for the swift and safest possible movement of the IDF.
Pray for the protection of the lives of all the IDF ground forces!
Oh God guide them and be with each and every one of the IDF soldiers. Give them courage and strength. Smite and the evil in Gaza!
AMEN.

986 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:26:50am

More from Twitter (Unconfirmed, of course)

"Witnesses: Israel shelling along entire length of Gaza Strip"

987 babes  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:27:12am

re: #943 nevergiveup

No - Elliot stayed at the Mayflower.

988 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:27:45am

re: #986 SteveC

More from Twitter (Unconfirmed, of course)

"Witnesses: Israel shelling along entire length of Gaza Strip"

It's amazing how far ahead of the News channels we are.

989 Miss Trixie  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:27:48am

re: #977 realwest

Hey there {Miss Trixie}! How are you today, gorgeous?
Oh and lots of *smoooches* back to you!

I can't complain but Lil Miss is suffering from cabin fever. It's much too cold to take her out and I did try a couple of times. Put her in her turtle-necked sweater and off we went! She was really good and scampered happily a fair way then stopped dead in her tracks when she realized it was cold! So I had to pick her up, shivering to beat the band, and take her inside where she got a Pupperoni for winter bravery.

Then she crashed on her favorite place on the ugly sofa to "recover".

She's so entertaining. :D

990 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:28:17am

re: #987 babes

No - Elliot stayed at the Mayflower.

Right. Thanks.

991 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:28:49am

re: #989 Miss Trixie

How old is your kid, Lil Miss?

992 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:29:10am

re: #990 Nevergiveup

Right. Thanks.

In Steerage?

993 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:29:19am

re: #986 SteveC

More from Twitter (Unconfirmed, of course)

"Witnesses: Israel shelling along entire length of Gaza Strip"

/twitter back, what about vehicles?

994 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:29:45am

Another (unconfirmed) Twitter report says tanks are now involved

995 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:30:09am

re: #981 SteveC

I guess that should mean that the IDF should not take prisoners.

But I believe in the unenlightened Sherman doctrine of warfare.

996 babes  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:31:28am

re: #992 Dustyvet

lol - no steerage there but not as nice as the Hay Adams.
[Link: www.marriott.com...]

997 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:31:49am

Oh this is good. CNN reporting that the mosque just hit by Israel caused 9 deaths & over 60 wounded. They say that it is not clear if the casualties are Hamas, but the Mosque is named after the founder of Hamas!
Let me think.

998 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:31:50am

re: #994 SteveC

Another (unconfirmed) Twitter report says tanks are now involved

Third confirmation.

/if it's good enough for Woodward/Bernstein, and the WAPO, it's good enough for me

999 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:32:02am

re: #981 SteveC

Islamic combat at its best!

1000 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:32:03am

re: #399 Buster Bunny

Yay !

Wot e sed. Luvverly

LOL.

1. "It's pollution that is killing our environment."

2. "NO! It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it!"

/

1001 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:32:13am

Twitter: "Shabbat's over...tanks roll..."

1002 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:32:23am

re: #995 unclassifiable

I guess that should mean that the IDF should not take prisoners.

But I believe in the unenlightened Sherman doctrine of warfare.

Since you mentioned Sherman positively, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say your not from the Dixie land?

1003 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:32:24am

re: #976 MarineGrunt
Yes indeed - taught folks how to avoid 'em at 8thDFG Jungle Operations Training Center in Panama. Some just didn't get it.
Though the beartrap was, imo, worse, though it took longer to put into place; the grenade in a can you could do in 5 minutes, top.
Nasty and effective mofo's.

1004 Miss Trixie  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:33:06am

re: #991 Walter L. Newton

How old is your kid, Lil Miss?

Good morning, Walter.

She'll be 11 next October 2 and I hope she has a very long and happy life with me. I can't imagine a better companion - she makes me laugh every day.

1005 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:33:21am

re: #1002 Nevergiveup

Since you mentioned Sherman positively, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say your not from the Dixie land?

Wrong.

1006 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:33:40am

re: #980 Nevergiveup
I thought they hit it the other day, no?!

1007 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:34:00am

A LOT of twitter messages - but 75% or more is a rehash of the mosque. I'm looking for other info.

1008 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:34:06am

That 'muslims in space' article has got me speculating. We already know that interstellar travel is very much harder to achieve than the capacity to destroy one's own species. Any society that wants to travel to the stars will have to survive long enough to progress to that point while having that capacity for self destruction.

It must be far easier for a group of insane religious terrorists to deliberately destroy the whole planet in fulfillment of their fantasies, than it is for the people of that planet to achieve interstellar travel and establish a viable colony on another world. Is that why it's so very, very quiet out there?

1009 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:34:08am

re: #1005 unclassifiable

Wrong.

Really? I thought Sherman was well let's say a tad unpopular in the South?

1010 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:34:15am

re: #995 unclassifiable

I guess that should mean that the IDF should not take prisoners.

/well, one thing's for sure, IDF personnel should make sure they're not taken prisoner

1011 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:34:23am

re: #995 unclassifiable

I guess that should mean that the IDF should not take prisoners.

But I believe in the unenlightened Sherman doctrine of warfare.

Which is?

1012 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:34:56am

re: #985 notutopia
AMEN.

1013 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:35:42am

re: #1011 notutopia

Which is?

Scorched earth policy

1014 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:36:17am

re: #989 Miss Trixie
LOL! Love those stories about "poor" Lil Miss!

1015 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:36:26am

re: #997 opnion

Oh this is good. CNN reporting that the mosque just hit by Israel caused 9 deaths & over 60 wounded. They say that it is not clear if the casualties are Hamas, but the Mosque is named after the founder of Hamas!
Let me think.

Do the mention the secondaries, all the ammo blowing up when it was hit.

1016 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:36:28am

re: #1009 Nevergiveup

Really? I thought Sherman was well let's say a tad unpopular in the South?

/it was just a big misunderstanding

1017 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:36:39am

re: #946 Killian Bundy

FOX NEWS ALERT!

Israeli vehicles crossing the border in force according to witnesses.

/no official confirmation, time check

Nothing on the Israeli newssites, nor on any of the blogs there, nor on the Beeb.

Keep watching - Sabbath isn't quite over yet, I think.
Preceding artillerry attacks, reported everywhere, would indicate that the ground incursion might be planned for later tonight.


Hi, Lizard Nation!

1018 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:36:41am

re: #1013 Nevergiveup

Scorched earth policy


Thank you. No quarter.

1019 JCM  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:38:00am

re: #1018 notutopia

Thank you. No quarter.

Sherman knew how to win a war.
War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want.

1020 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:39:07am

re: #1011 notutopia

Which is?

Lay waste to the other side. Make war terrible so they will not appeal to it again. In this context that would mean not stopping attacks entirely. Keep them up at a low level, even if you have few targets. The object being to deny the enemy peace and keep him on edge with the aim of breaking his will to fight you. I support tactics such as these.

1021 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:39:11am

re: #1009 Nevergiveup
Sherman is more than a "tad" unpopular down here; and frankly in a few places up north, too.

1022 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:39:21am

re: #1015 JCM

Do the mention the secondaries, all the ammo blowing up when it was hit.

Not a chance. The piece on CNN was very sympathetic to Hamas.
Even when they reported that the Mosque was named after the Hamas founder, they made it sound like it really didn't mean anything.

1023 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:39:25am

re: #1009 Nevergiveup

Well I live here but half of my family are 1900 immigrants.

I understand the fading hatred in the Deep South but when it comes to military tactics its best to view them unemotionally. IIRC Nathan Bedford Forrest still has a few kudos thrown his way in military annals also.

1024 itellu3times  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:39:38am

re: #43 MacGregor

When our species evolved from say cromagnon, was it one newborn with the new dna or did many offspring appear with new similarly evolved dna? Wouldn't there be pressure on parents and communities to "wash it down the river" as deformed like in the old days?

Perhaps an environmental change such as an asteroid hit necessitated new dna to deal with issues such as heat-dissipation and the change was global, not local? Just wondering.

Whose species evolved from cro-magnon?

The way evolution tends to work, is an accumulation of small changes, so that an entire population has some distribution of, say, hair color. Would a parent drown the first infant that had red hair? Then maybe in the same generation a cousin shows up as the second with red hair, and these two begin to pass it down, and after a few generations it's all over the village, sporadically. The point being that most of the genetic preparation for the red hair may have taken place hundreds of years earlier.

It takes thousands of years of accumulation of these kinds of changes, before a new species is likely to be formed, usually including isolation and some environmental changes. Haven't been enough years or changes in the 250,000 or so years since Cro-magnon, to produce even two species of humans, we all cross-breed just fine, thank you.

1025 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:40:19am

Another gem from Twitter:

" Shootouts, explosions, dogs shot, and yelling. I'm not sure if this is Gaza, New years, or an episode of 24"

1026 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:40:20am

re: #1017 yma o hyd

Nothing on the Israeli newssites, nor on any of the blogs there, nor on the Beeb.

Keep watching - Sabbath isn't quite over yet, I think.
Preceding artillerry attacks, reported everywhere, would indicate that the ground incursion might be planned for later tonight.

Hi, Lizard Nation!

All I know is that A FOX reporter, standing there in his flak vest, on the TV, said he was watching vehicles move across the border.

/if true, mind the time check, 1/03/09 8:12:47 am

1027 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:40:30am

re: #1017 yma o hyd
Good afternoon {yma} - hope you're well today?!

1028 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:40:48am

re: #1021 realwest

Sherman is more than a "tad" unpopular down here; and frankly in a few places up north, too.

his policy towards the Indians was utterly sickening....bad fucking guy imo

1029 Lincolntf  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:40:52am

re: #1017 yma o hyd

I'm finding the same lack of info. I assume Israellycool, etc. will be coming out with updates shortly.

1030 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:41:20am

re: #1011 notutopia

If I may paraphrase and summarize, make war hell to discourage the enemy to never take up arms again.

1031 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:41:31am

re: #1008 Jimmah

That 'muslims in space' article has got me speculating. We already know that interstellar travel is very much harder to achieve than the capacity to destroy one's own species. Any society that wants to travel to the stars will have to survive long enough to progress to that point while having that capacity for self destruction.

It must be far easier for a group of insane religious terrorists to deliberately destroy the whole planet in fulfillment of their fantasies, than it is for the people of that planet to achieve interstellar travel and establish a viable colony on another world. Is that why it's so very, very quiet out there?

carspaceshipbombs?

1032 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:42:18am

Liberal blog says the green light is on!

1033 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:42:22am

re: #1021 realwest

Sherman is more than a "tad" unpopular down here; and frankly in a few places up north, too.

Where I live was farm land back in the Civil War. Sherman got a lot of his army from this area. There are cemeteries here with the remains of young men who were killed.

1034 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:43:07am

8:23 Iran urges Muslim states to send weapons to Gaza (Haaretz)


UPS FEDEX?

1035 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:43:21am

re: #1011 notutopia
Make war on true civilian population. Burn all crops - let the civilians eat their dreams, destroy all homes, robbery,looting and all the rest.
Yes, General Sherman was quite the military man.
Introduced the scorched earth policy which left hundreds of thousand of women and kids homeless and without food.
Course, that WAS during the Recent Unpleasantness.

1036 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:44:34am

re: #1025 SteveC

Another gem from Twitter:

" Shootouts, explosions, dogs shot, and yelling. I'm not sure if this is Gaza, New years, or an episode of 24"

Naw, last night in Chicago.

1037 cyclosarin  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:44:46am

Evolution never looked so tastey.

1038 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:45:02am

re: #972 Sharmuta

Well now I am really blushing.

We live in world where people want to paint with political brushes and actual facts, and often basic morality, be damned.

It is because I know Israel well, the total justness of her cause that makes me take the time to write. The only thing that stands in the way of Israel getting mau-maued to death are people like you and I writing to editors and policymakers, stating the case forcefully and accurately and then being borne out by events.

Anyone who reads my stuff knows I have a very singular goal, I want Israel to survive and live in peace with her neighbors. And that includes the very Palestinians Israel fights today.

If it takes a hundred wars of survival, so be it. But I firmly believe supporters of Israel should have a noble and glorious goal: Israel's place among the nations with lasting peace and security for all in the region. Only that can possibly make it up to the many good young people and the victims of terror who have sacrificed so much over the years. I am an unruly idealist but if your dreams are not great, you can only create greatness by accident; I am a Zionist. I want to build a great nation in the land of my forefathers, a nation worthy of the dreams that made and equal to great heritage of my people.

1039 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:45:11am

re: #1034 Nevergiveup

8:23 Iran urges Muslim states to send weapons to Gaza (Haaretz)

UPS FEDEX?

makes you wonder if they have any clue at all...what a bunch of clowns

1040 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:45:25am

re: #1036 opnion

Naw, last night in Chicago.

Perhaps France? New Record for New Years car burnings at approximately 1,147.

/to be a car salesmen there....

1041 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:45:38am

re: #1033 opnion Lots of cemeteries filled with dead confederate soldiers down here, too.
Still it WAS nice of Arlington Cemetery to extend the boundaries of the place to include the mounds where the Dead Southern Soldiers were buried.

1042 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:45:54am

re: #1035 realwest

Make war on true civilian population. Burn all crops - let the civilians eat their dreams, destroy all homes, robbery,looting and all the rest.
Yes, General Sherman was quite the military man.
Introduced the scorched earth policy which left hundreds of thousand of women and kids homeless and without food.
Course, that WAS during the Recent Unpleasantness.


Real, do you call it the War of Northern Agression?

1043 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:46:16am

The Muqata has just started blogging - nothing about tanks as yet.

1044 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:46:21am

Now FOX boy in the flak vest is hedging, the ground campaign may or may not be underway.

/personally, I trust his first report, the IDF has crossed into Gaza

1045 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:46:56am

re: #959 Pietr

Damn, RW-you know exactly what VMP(1Lt) was saying-and made a funny. I'll leave it at that-tho I understand trying to humorize the times......

Not trying to make a funny... only pointing out that little things can mean the world in tough times.

Real knows that, too, and stated the obvious... though unobtainable... preference.

1046 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:47:56am

re: #1032 SteveC

Liberal blog says the green light is on!

Knowing liberals, he's probably talking about a traffic light at 4th and Main...

1047 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:48:14am

re: #1044 Killian Bundy

Now FOX boy in the flak vest is hedging, the ground campaign may or may not be underway.

/personally, I trust his first report, the IDF has crossed into Gaza

Maybe they are just headed into Gaza for some hummus and pita bread?

1048 MarineGrunt  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:49:04am

re: #1003 realwest

Never saw a bear trap in the field, heard about them and saw a few on display back at base camp, Bouncing Bettys and grenade in the can along with the popular punji pits were the norm in our TAOR.

1049 itellu3times  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:49:21am

re: #1035 realwest

Make war on true civilian population. Burn all crops - let the civilians eat their dreams, destroy all homes, robbery,looting and all the rest.
Yes, General Sherman was quite the military man.
Introduced the scorched earth policy which left hundreds of thousand of women and kids homeless and without food.
Course, that WAS during the Recent Unpleasantness.

Well, he didn't exactly invent scorched earth. Reading about the fourteen century in Europe, even friendly armies passing through, would strip the countryside, and sometimes burn it, in case the enemy later came through looking for food. Hence the third amendment:

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
1050 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:49:21am

Mike Tobin e-mailed Greta Van Susteren... Tanks and vehicles moving around, possibly firing.

1051 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:49:34am

re: #1041 realwest

Lots of cemeteries filled with dead confederate soldiers down here, too.
Still it WAS nice of Arlington Cemetery to extend the boundaries of the place to include the mounds where the Dead Southern Soldiers were buried.

My point was that if you got drafted into Shermans Army , you became a poor life insurance risk.

1052 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:50:35am

re: #1028 albusteve

his policy towards the Indians was utterly sickening

That is true. But in the case of Gaza how is one to deal with the utter depravity of a state that uses its willing civilian population (they voted for them) as shields?

This is not a pretty situation but every combination of appeasement short of surrender and self-annihilation has been tried.

1053 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:50:41am

re: #1038 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Well now I am really blushing.

We live in world where people want to paint with political brushes and actual facts, and often basic morality, be damned.

It is because I know Israel well, the total justness of her cause that makes me take the time to write. The only thing that stands in the way of Israel getting mau-maued to death are people like you and I writing to editors and policymakers, stating the case forcefully and accurately and then being borne out by events.

Anyone who reads my stuff knows I have a very singular goal, I want Israel to survive and live in peace with her neighbors. And that includes the very Palestinians Israel fights today.

If it takes a hundred wars of survival, so be it. But I firmly believe supporters of Israel should have a noble and glorious goal: Israel's place among the nations with lasting peace and security for all in the region. Only that can possibly make it up to the many good young people and the victims of terror who have sacrificed so much over the years. I am an unruly idealist but if your dreams are not great, you can only create greatness by accident; I am a Zionist. I want to build a great nation in the land of my forefathers, a nation worthy of the dreams that made and equal to great heritage of my people.

And this is exactly why I said you are a Treasure to LGF.

God bless you and Charles and God be with Israel.

1054 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:50:52am

re: #1026 Killian Bundy

All I know is that A FOX reporter, standing there in his flak vest, on the TV, said he was watching vehicles move across the border.

/if true, mind the time check, 1/03/09 8:12:47 am

Yep - time check needs to be noted.
That would put it after the end of Sabbath, and also note that its now dark in Israel and Gaza ...

1055 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:51:30am

re: #1051 opnion

My point was that if you got drafted into Shermans Army , you became a poor life insurance risk.

Well in general, being a soldier during the Civil War was a dangerous occupation, but I seem to remember reading that Sherman was relatively popular amongst his soldiers?

1056 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:51:39am

re: #1042 opnion
No, I don't. Nor do I - except in a stick-in-the-ribs way to my neighbors, refer to it as the Recent Unpleasantness (though you'd be surprised at how many folks that resonates with; I know I was!). I refer to it by its proper name: The Civil War. Victors get to choose the names after all.
Historically more accurate would be The War Between the States.

1057 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:52:49am

And Mr. Johnson remains abed.....

1058 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:54:04am

re: #1052 unclassifiable

That is true. But in the case of Gaza how is one to deal with the utter depravity of a state that uses its willing civilian population (they voted for them) as shields?

This is not a pretty situation but every combination of appeasement short of surrender and self-annihilation has been tried.

well they were offered a reservation and that hasn't worked....I guess IFD ROE should be to take down Hamas anyway possible....the shields will have to die I guess if they dont resist (becoming a shield)

1059 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:54:20am

re: #1027 realwest

Good afternoon {yma} - hope you're well today?!

Hiya, {rw}!

I'm very sad - a friend and neighbour died yesterday. Not my dear friend next door, God be thanked, but a lovely man a few houses down. He taught me all about rugby, his wife is a gem in our little neighbourhod - we've been crying and trying to be brave for ach other. Its a real blow.
He was 83, and they had been marreid for 59 years, it would have been their 60th anniversary this year. He was very ill, but it was so quick - none of us can yet quite believe it.

1060 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:54:34am

re: #1055 Nevergiveup

Well in general, being a soldier during the Civil War was a dangerous occupation, but I seem to remember reading that Sherman was relatively popular amongst his soldiers?

Yes... except for Kennesaw Mtn, he was very frugal with his army and used maneuver instead of the more traditional bloodbath to get the job done.

His snuffies appreciated that.

Ripping the life out of Georgia and the Carolinas was less popular with the Southerners.

1061 SWPaul  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:54:51am

Good morning, all. I have found the worst comment of all times off of:
Aides: Democrats have plan if Burris shows up

Yes, this man exists. His vote counts just the same as yours, although it's probable he's a felon of some creepy sort.

Clintob666 January 2nd, 2009 1:06 am ET
As far as I know Burris is not a drunk, was not charged with rape, did not kill anyone with his car and was not cought cheating in college. How is he not better than kennedy. A fireman goes into a burning building to stop the fire how is he tainted by the fire. Also what makes Blago worse than Kennedy. A water board for all of them no water pig urine. They should all share kennedys cancer. We should throw all of them under a trank repeal all their laws and start over with the Tem Commandments except this time Zionist Jews must obey the Commandments also. The United States Of America can fail, the scialist left is heading us their.
1062 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:55:11am

Telegraph says NO ground attack imminent.

1063 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:55:23am

re: #1059 yma o hyd

I'm sorry to hear of your loss.

1064 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:56:14am

re: #917 opnion

Is it just me or is anyone else getting Obama fatigue? He hasn't even taken office yet & he is getting old. He & his family are all over the newspapers & magazine covers & his radio adresses are getting tedious.
The TV newsies are gushing all over him. Enough!

YES! I for one am particularly worn out by all the "Historic Presidency" crap - for Pete's sake the man hasn't done a bloody thing yet but his administration is "historic"? Gimme a break.

BO fatigue is the primary reason why Mrs. Reject and I have cut way back on our news consumption (except for LGF of course) since the election. As a result we find we have way more time for reading (my winter list consists, in part, of 5 books by Tolkien that were a Christmas present from Mrs. and Little Reject) good music (XM has lots of classical and 40's/50's tunes) and other diversions such as the "Rummer":


2 parts light rum
2 parts dark rum
1 part apricot brandy
1 part peach brandy

Mix and serve over ice with a wedge of lime.

So there are things other than the news with which one can occupy one's time...

1065 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:56:38am

re: #1056 realwest

No, I don't. Nor do I - except in a stick-in-the-ribs way to my neighbors, refer to it as the Recent Unpleasantness (though you'd be surprised at how many folks that resonates with; I know I was!). I refer to it by its proper name: The Civil War. Victors get to choose the names after all.
Historically more accurate would be The War Between the States.


My best friend lives just outside Charlotte (Decorated Viet Nam Vet)
He does refer to it as the War of Northern Agression as do some of his friends. We were all drinking on his deck one night & i did think that it was funny. It seems to still resonate in the South as opposed to the North.

1066 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:58:04am

re: #1029 Lincolntf

I'm finding the same lack of info. I assume Israellycool, etc. will be coming out with updates shortly.

I'd say that if the IDF really are going in right now, we'll not be getting anything, nor will we be getting stuff from the bloggers.
I'd expect a total news blackout, for the time being.
Remember the use the Mumbai terrorists amde of cellphones and internet. I'm sure the IDF would not want to alert the hamassholes to whatever they're planning and doing.

1067 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:58:29am

re: #1055 Nevergiveup

Well in general, being a soldier during the Civil War was a dangerous occupation, but I seem to remember reading that Sherman was relatively popular amongst his soldiers?

Surgeons on both sides of the conflict were often literally butchers.
Limb removal was often the solution, hence the term ;'Sawbones"

1068 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:58:51am

re: #1064 CIA Reject
2 parts light rum
2 parts dark rum
1 part apricot brandy
1 part peach brandy

Mix and serve over ice with a wedge of lime.
2 please money over.............................>
Thanks

1069 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:59:15am

re: #1065 opnion

It seems to still resonate in the South as opposed to the North.

You've seen these civil war memorials in little towns all over the former Union states? You know what they are?

Tributes to Southern Marksmanship!

1070 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:00:08am

re: #1067 opnion

Surgeons on both sides of the conflict were often literally butchers.
Limb removal was often the solution, hence the term ;'Sawbones"

Speaking of which, even thought it is cold outside, I am going to barbecue this afternoon.

1071 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:00:10am

re: #1066 yma o hyd

I'd say that if the IDF really are going in right now, we'll not be getting anything, nor will we be getting stuff from the bloggers.
I'd expect a total news blackout, for the time being.
Remember the use the Mumbai terrorists amde of cellphones and internet. I'm sure the IDF would not want to alert the hamassholes to whatever they're planning and doing.

Is CNN on the ground? They are probably trying to embed with the IDF and sending ground reports directly to HAMAS. "Moving East down Achmed Avenue...get ready to fire in 5...4..."

/

1072 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:00:11am

re: #1049 itellu3times
Well you're certainly correct about the 14th century
although, of course the Third amendment was written about the British Army's practice of quartering troops in civilian homes, mostly in NYC and Boston. But as war has evolved over the years, WE at least (and Israel - I guess "We" would include the democratic nations of the world) have always tried to minimize civilian casualties and maltreatment.
It's not as easy as scorched earth, but it is, IMO, more civilized and moral.

1073 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:00:17am

re: #1068 Erik The Red

2 parts light rum
2 parts dark rum
1 part apricot brandy
1 part peach brandy

Mix and serve over ice with a wedge of lime.
2 please money over.............................>
Thanks

Here ya go! *hic* .........

1074 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:00:25am

re: #1067 opnion

Surgeons on both sides of the conflict were often literally butchers.
Limb removal was often the solution, hence the term ;'Sawbones"

just looking at the saws themselves in a museum about makes me faint...

1075 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:00:39am

re: #1038 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Sharmuta is right - you are a treasure!

I pray that your dreams for Israel will come true.

1076 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:01:25am

Mike Tobin now live on Fox from the border

1077 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:01:28am

re: #1075 yma o hyd

Sharmuta is right - you are a treasure!

I pray that your dreams for Israel will come true.

We all have that prayer here.

1078 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:01:31am

re: #1060 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Yes... except for Kennesaw Mtn, he was very frugal with his army and used maneuver instead of the more traditional bloodbath to get the job done.

His snuffies appreciated that.

Ripping the life out of Georgia and the Carolinas was less popular with the Southerners.

The poor insurance risk would have been serving under Sherman's opponent during the second half of the Atlanta campaign: John Bell Hood. Hood seeming could not figure out that frontal attacks were a poor tactic. In three separate battles near Atlanta and another, later, fight at Franklin, Tenessee, he ruined his army with costly attacks against superior forces.

1079 Pietr  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:01:33am

re: #1045 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

I was chastising RW, not you-but I understand, he is hurting right now; he's lost a friend. But I also understood why trying to make those times seem livable/laughable is done. '65 to '87,a volunteer unchosen-only spit at once-because I made every other peacenik spitter swallow and leave, after that first time(I asked if they wanted to leave with their teeth in their mouths-or in their hands). And, I made a point of travelling in uniform.
I never allowed myself, or brothers from other services be disrespected when I travelled. Just me.....

1080 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:01:44am

Tanks on the move but not crossing yet

1081 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:02:09am

re: #1051 opnion
Hell if you served in anyone's army during the Civil War you were a poor life insurance risk - something over SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND AMERICAN MEN DIED in that bloody damned war.

1082 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:02:45am

"You need a bigger oven."

1083 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:03:04am

re: #43 MacGregor

When our species evolved from say cromagnon, was it one newborn with the new dna or did many offspring appear with new similarly evolved dna? Wouldn't there be pressure on parents and communities to "wash it down the river" as deformed like in the old days?

Perhaps an environmental change such as an asteroid hit necessitated new dna to deal with issues such as heat-dissipation and the change was global, not local? Just wondering.

We are only a little different from the Cro-Magnon. They were a bit bigger, and so were their brains. {hmmm} Behaviorally, they were fully up to speed, with cave art that qualifies as real art, and with flint knapping skills that today's amateur-professional hobbyist flint knappers must work at for years to equal.

Most biological differences won't be at all noticeable, or if they are, they'll be within the normal range of variance for the population at large.

So what if Timmy can drink goat milk at age 5 and not throw up, while Bobby can only stomach it until he's 4? But by and by, the Timmies predominate, because any little edge in the struggle for survival will tip the scales in the long run. Timmies then shade off into Judys who can stomach goats milk at 7, etc. and in an evolutionary blink, goat-herding cultures have evolved adult lactose tolerance.

The same sort of thing happens with skin color; evolution shapes the people to whatever melanin pigmentation level is best suited to the local climate. And if Joey is smarter than Sam, well, that doesn't make Joey a freak.

What seems gradual by the standards of one lifetime, can be sudden when seen against the timescale of evolution.

1084 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:03:09am

re: #1067 opnion

Surgeons on both sides of the conflict were often literally butchers.
Limb removal was often the solution, hence the term ;'Sawbones"

I always admired Dan Sickles because after he had his leg amputated he donated it to the Army medical museum, and went there to visit it occasionally.

1085 babes  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:03:45am

re: #1064 CIA Reject

Obama fatigue .. well if you live in the DC area you hear a daily barrage about the porta-potty problem, the bus parking problem, the don"-take-the-train-but-but-walk problem, the eight car train testing,no umbrellas allowed problem and on and on....

1086 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:04:16am

From Twitter, UNCONFIRMED, and I hope untrue:

"ITN reporting that Chemical Weapons are used by Israel on Gaza, according to UN workers"

1087 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:05:05am

re: #1059 yma o hyd
Oh {yma} I am so sorry to hear that news. My sympathies and condolences to his widow, family - and to you.

1088 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:05:43am

re: #1086 SteveC

From Twitter, UNCONFIRMED, and I hope untrue:

"ITN reporting that Chemical Weapons are used by Israel on Gaza, according to UN workers"

The lies get better by the minute...F*** the UN.

1089 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:06:01am

re: #1069 SteveC

You've seen these civil war memorials in little towns all over the former Union states? You know what they are?

Tributes to Southern Marksmanship!

Not cool, steve.

1090 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:06:02am

re: #1086 SteveC

From Twitter, UNCONFIRMED, and I hope untrue:

"ITN reporting that Chemical Weapons are used by Israel on Gaza, according to UN workers"

Smoke bombs

1091 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:06:07am

re: #1063 Sharmuta

Thank you - we've know each other for 19 years. The good thing in this little neighbourhood is that we all are supportive of each other, newcomers as well as us oldies, and word spreads like wildfire, to shops, to friends elsewhere.
He will be missed by so many, but my main concern right now is for his widow. Being one myself, I know only too well what its like.

1092 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:06:49am

This is from the google listing: ITN: Sri Lanka's leading news network....

'nuff said!

1093 albusteve  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:07:10am

re: #1077 Sharmuta

We all have that prayer here.

I was praying that Hamas would rapidly fold and become disenchanted with Allah for not swiftly delivering his noble victory...then just remembered I'd read that from AG this morning!...he does have an effect...

1094 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:07:15am

re: #1078 Dark_Falcon

The poor insurance risk would have been serving under Sherman's opponent during the second half of the Atlanta campaign: John Bell Hood. Hood seeming could not figure out that frontal attacks were a poor tactic. In three separate battles near Atlanta and another, later, fight at Franklin, Tenessee, he ruined his army with costly attacks against superior forces.

Hood actually launched the futile assualt at Franklin to "discipline" his army and "teach" it to attack. Moral: Never let a drug addict run your army. (Hood of 1864 is a very different man than Hood of 1862).


re: #1079 Pietr

No problem, buddy... very sorry to hear about Real's loss, I missed that. *lifts coffee mug in salute toward Charlotte*

1095 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:08:14am

re: #1087 realwest

Thank you so much, {rw].

1096 AuntAcid  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:08:16am

Finally, evolution we can believe in.

1097 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:08:51am

re: #1056 realwest

No, I don't. Nor do I - except in a stick-in-the-ribs way to my neighbors, refer to it as the Recent Unpleasantness (though you'd be surprised at how many folks that resonates with; I know I was!). I refer to it by its proper name: The Civil War. Victors get to choose the names after all.
Historically more accurate would be The War Between the States.

The colloquial sugared use of 'Recent Unpleasantness' is sickeningly sweet to me. Just like they take their tea here. It was a War Between the States of the Confederacy and the Union.
I am a born and bred deep southerner. Land of cotton and Dixie and all that euphemism...
The fact is that the Civil War physically tore this region of NC, Va,into shreds. In some bordering state areas, brothers and family members were split and fighting against their own family homelands. If any lesson is to learned, it's that the civilians paid dearly for many years after the war in rebuilding their lives and homesteads.

1098 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:09:10am

re: #1086 SteveC

From Twitter, UNCONFIRMED, and I hope untrue:

"ITN reporting that Chemical Weapons are used by Israel on Gaza, according to UN workers"

Hey, like, bombs, like, they have, like, explosives in 'em, and like, yeah, like explosives are, like CHEMICALS, right? So, like, they really are, like, using CHEMICAL WEAPONS, like, right?

/My head hurts from typing that...

1099 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:10:29am

re: #1059 yma o hyd

{yma}
My sincere condolences.

1100 SteveC  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:11:08am

re: #1098 CIA Reject

Hey, like, bombs, like, they have, like, explosives in 'em, and like, yeah, like explosives are, like CHEMICALS, right? So, like, they really are, like, using CHEMICAL WEAPONS, like, right?

/My head hurts from typing that...

Go put a cold cloth on your head, man. A *normal* brain isn't wired to think like that!

1101 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:11:40am

re: #1061 SWPaul
I just don't know what ground the Senate Democrats would have for refusing Burris' appointment. Is Blago a scumbag? Yes. Is he a convicted felon (a la Marion Barry) no. Has Blago been indicted with any crimes?
No.
Is he still the legally seated Governor of Illinois? Yes.
Does that give him the right to appoint Burris to fill Obama's vacant Senate seat? Yes.
So on what grounds do the Senate Democrats plan to block Burris' seating in the United States Senate?

HEY 3 Wood - if y'all are still out here, a little insight to this would be appreciated!

1102 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:11:49am

re: #1081 realwest

Hell if you served in anyone's army during the Civil War you were a poor life insurance risk - something over SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND AMERICAN MEN DIED in that bloody damned war.

Real, what I am saying is due to Shermans tactics he lost more men per capita than most. I am not dissin the South, the Civil War is history.
Hell I like the South. There was honor on both sides & that definitely includes the Union soldiers

1103 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:13:04am

re: #1100 SteveC

Go put a cold cloth on your head, man. A *normal* brain isn't wired to think like that!

A sad commentary on the state of American education is that so many brains are wired to think EXACTLY like that....

1104 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:14:00am

re: #1102 opnion

Real, what I am saying is due to Shermans tactics he lost more men per capita than most.

I don't think that statement is accurate.

1105 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:17:26am

re: #1104 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

I don't think that statement is accurate.

I think so, but I could be wrong.What is true that his agressive tactics killed lots of enemy & his own troops. That is not a slam on Sherman.

1106 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:18:43am

re: #1094 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Hood actually launched the futile assualt at Franklin to "discipline" his army and "teach" it to attack. Moral: Never let a drug addict run your army. (Hood of 1864 is a very different man than Hood of 1862).

re: #1079 Pietr

No problem, buddy... very sorry to hear about Real's loss, I missed that. *lifts coffee mug in salute toward Charlotte*

That I had not known. Thank you for that, it good to learn something new.

1107 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:22:13am

re: #1065 opnion
Well I guess it resonates down here because it was fought and the property destruction occurred down here.
BTW, the noted, late historian Shelby Foote made what I thought was a poignant and spot on observation: during one of the bloody battles in Virginia, the South had lost and Union troops were searching the now denuded forest for survivors. They chanced upon a very badly wounded Confederate soldier who was trying, vainly, to raise his rifle to fire at them. They gently lifted the rifle from his hand and, seeing he would die soon as his wounds were so horrendous, said "You're dying. Your clothing is just in tatters and you have cloth strips wrapped around your feet for boots. You are clearly not a rich Southern Slave owner, why is it you fight so hard against us"? To which he replied "Because y'all are down here." Then he died.
Since the majority of reputable historians estimate that the all white Confederate Armies consisted of 95% non-slave holders, I'd submit that the war was over State's rights (from the Southern pov) and therefore it is called by many down here as the "War of Northern Aggression".
But, regardless of what you call it, it was a tragic and traumatic experience for our Nation.

1108 angst  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:23:05am

re: #996 babes

lol - no steerage there but not as nice as the Hay Adams.
[Link: www.marriott.com...]

I stayed four doors down from the infamous room last summer. Sucked up all my Marriott points in one night! Although the free food was nice.

1109 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:26:25am

re: #1089 opnion
"Not cool, steve" to say the least.

1110 opnion  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:27:59am

re: #1107 realwest
There is no question that the whole thing was tragic with hero's on both sides.
For the South it was States Rights, for the North it was preservation of the Union.

1111 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:30:52am

re: #1104 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)Well LT, Grant lost more men in most of his battles against Lee than Lee had in his army at the beginning of the battle.* It was militarily effective (to say the least) but damned expensive in lives. On both sides.

* Y'all can verify me on that if you want, but iirc that's correct.

1112 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:31:40am

re: #1107 realwest

re: #1110 opnion

And I think that the thing that made the war truly an American experience is the fact that, be it States Rights, Slavery, or preservation of the Union the Civil war was fought for ideals. Not for land, not for treasure, not for power, but for ideals. It defined who we are as Americans:

Americans are people who will fight and die for ideals.

1113 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:33:51am

re: #1112 CIA Reject
I agree completely, except that I would say it reaffirmed that Americans will fight for ideals.
Hell the United States was founded on an ideal that had NEVER been tried before: that the governed should do the governing and have certain basic protections against Government abuse.

1114 notutopia  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:36:24am

re: #1082 SteveC

"You need a bigger oven."

Steve, Please choose your captions more carefully.
This is not your sentiments I hope?

1115 CIA Reject  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:37:15am

re: #1113 realwest

In retrospect, since the Revolution was a war fought for ideals as well, I think your assessment is more accurate, and closer to my intent, than my original post!

1116 realwest  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:38:14am

re: #1114 notutopia
I agree with your statement about his captions, but think he was referring to the article to which he linked.
I don't think Steve wants any Jews or Israeli's to go to any ovens.
Just saying................

1117 Joan  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 9:38:52am

re: #15 teleskiguy

....Speaking of evolving, here's a P.J. O'Rourke piece about the evolution of the House of the Future, or should I say, de-evolution.
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

Great article! P.J. realist, cynic, wit, amusing and cuddly too.

1118 Lincolntf  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 10:32:42am

"witnesses report border crossings into Gaza. Small arms fire seen.." per Fox News.

1119 Judith  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 10:45:46am

You can read about more examples in:

Seckbach, J. & Gordon, R. (eds.) (2008). Divine Action and Natural Selection: Science, Faith and Evolution, Singapore: World Scientific. [published in hardback, paperback and eBook formats: [Link: www.worldscibooks.com...] ]

1120 Mr Secul  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 10:51:07am

Has anybody else looked at the Moray eel example?

It has a link to a PDF that shows that Moray eels have an internal set of jaws that can shoot forward into the mouth. It reminds me of Alien. (The file is only 678 KB)

There is a radiograph on the first page that shows how far back the second set of jaws are when retracted and another shows them fully extended. And there are pictures of the excised jaw bones and the teeth on page 2. Page 3 has diagrams that look just like concept sketches for a new Alien flick.

I did a Google for pharyngeal jaws and came up with this PDF. (All 2,705 KB of it)

If anyone here is uncertain if jaws could really evolve from gill arches then have a read.

1121 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 11:36:48am

re: #1038 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Snippets . . .

We live in world where people want to paint with political brushes and actual facts, and often basic morality, be damned.

This is so true. Unfortunately, politicians the world over use only those "facts" and "morality" that are expedient for the moment. As Czech writer Karel Capek wrote in 1938 over the betrayal of Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany:

In the interests of peace, energetic measures against the victims of aggressions must be taken. Localizing a conflict: leaving the victim to his fate. Liquidating a conflict: amputating his legs in addition. No sacrifice made by others is too much for the cause of peace. The Czechs have not been sold out-just given away for nothing.

Much of Israel has been given away for nothing.

As demonstrated many times in history, peace is not maintained by politicians, but by the threat of force of arms. This is also true of freedom within any state.

Anyone who reads my stuff knows I have a very singular goal, I want Israel to survive and live in peace with her neighbors. And that
includes the very Palestinians Israel fights today.

This is a noble and worthy goal made impossible by jealous and unworthy people who have used and continue to use every means possible to destroy Israel. These enemies of peace and freedom cannot be placated and most certainly cannot be trusted.

Our hearts and prayers are with you!

-sk

1122 Zimriel  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 5:22:58pm

re: #1112 CIA Reject

re: #1110 opnion

And I think that the thing that made the war truly an American experience is the fact that, be it States Rights, Slavery, or preservation of the Union the Civil war was fought for ideals. Not for land, not for treasure, not for power, but for ideals. It defined who we are as Americans:

Americans are people who will fight and die for ideals.

This is also true of Germans; c.f., the Thirty Years' War.

1123 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:24:21pm

re: #535 Salamantis

werewolves are rapists, while vampires are seducers. Werewolves are brutal, un-self-controlled ravening beasts, while vampires are intelligent, skillful, charismatic and mesmerizing manipulators.

Interesting point, but as far as I know the "cunning, seductive predator" aspect of the vampire myth was an innovation of Bram Stoker -- the original East European vampires were more simple-minded, though not necessarily as dimwitted and slow as zombies. But they were relatively easy to fool, and indeed some of the traditional methods for dealing with vampires involved taking steps to keep them confused and distracted between nightfall and dawn.

You could argue that modern vampire mythology combines the undead-cannibals aspect of zombies (Hollywood zombies, I mean) with the predatory sexuality of the Greek sirens.

1124 cloudsendlib  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 7:56:59pm

Strange they would be using Finches as an example of evolution. Didn't the beaks grow with less food, then return to previous size in later years as food supply increased. The beaks are still beaks. Why is this micro-evolutionary?

1125 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 3, 2009 8:00:12pm

re: #1083 lostlakehiker

So what if Timmy can drink goat milk at age 5 and not throw up, while Bobby can only stomach it until he's 4? But by and by, the Timmies predominate, because any little edge in the struggle for survival will tip the scales in the long run. Timmies then shade off into Judys who can stomach goats milk at 7, etc. and in an evolutionary blink, goat-herding cultures have evolved adult lactose tolerance.

I'm pretty sure you have the cause-and-effect reversed here: Populations in which most adults just happened to be lactose-tolerant eventually developed dairy-animal-herding cultures, because they could. When they made contact with populations that had not yet attempted to use animal milk as a food source, tribes that also had the gene(s) for adult lactose-tolerance would've said, "wow, herding goats so that we can eat their milk is a fabulous idea, why didn't we think of it sooner?" (Note: The reason it's a "fabulous idea" is that NO humans have the ability to digest plant cellulose -- so a lush valley of green grass represents a huge food resource that humans can't exploit directly. Cows and sheep and goats and other dairy animals convert all the energy trapped in that grass into forms that the human body CAN digest, such as milk and muscular tissue.)

On the other hand, tribes in which most adults were lactose intolerant might've given goat milk a try when introduced to it by contact with a foreign tribe -- but finding that it gave them upset stomachs, they would've had very little motivation to make a cultural practice out of herding goats.

1126 Mr Secul  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 3:37:48am

re: #1124 cloudsendlib

The study that you refer to showed how fast natural selection could operate. Beak sizes changed rapidly in response to changes in the environment.

Didn't the beaks grow with less food, then return to previous size in later years as food supply increased.

No, it wasn't the amount of food that mattered, it was the changing nature of the food, the changing proportions of large to small seeds.

When seeds were large there was selection pressure for large beaks. When seeds were small there was selection pressure for small beaks.

The beaks are still beaks.

Which is expected. Evolution works with what is available at the time. Birds have a great variety of beaks which shows how useful beaks are.

Changing beak sizes is easier than evolving an entirely novel food gathering and processing organ.

Changing the beak sizes was sufficient to adapt to the environmental changes.

Why is this micro-evolutionary?

It was micro-evolutionary because there was no speciation. It was micro-evolutionary because the size changes were due to the selection of inheritable traits - not due to changes in beak sizes inside a single generation.

I think that there is something more interesting going on than merely natural selection. Read this (1.2.3 Darwin's finches).

If the link doesn't work for you then try Googling for lowe finches and select Evolution Through Genetic Exchange - Google Books Result.

The suggestion is that the rapid changes in beak sizes are due to hybridization between closely related species.

It could be that the visible species reflect the most common, stable environmental/ecological niches.

The birds can cross between species but the crosses are usually at a disadvantage so they have fewer offspring. This establishes the species boundaries. When conditions are perturbed the crosses become viable.

So when conditions swing from the norm, hybrids with changed beak sizes flourish.

Once conditions return to the norm selection operates to reestablish the species 'boundaries' and beak sizes return to the norm.

This would provide a mechanism for rapid adaption to temporary fluctuations and a return to the optimum 'normal condition' beak sizes when conditions return to the norm.


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