Ken Miller Dissects the Creationists’ Next Tactic

Science • Views: 4,550

Biologist Ken Miller, the Discovery Institute’s worst enemy, has three terrific guest posts at science writer Carl Zimmer’s blog, destroying the DI’s latest attempts to rewrite the history of the Dover creationism lawsuit:

Smoke and Mirrors, Whales and Lampreys: A Guest Post by Ken Miller

Ken Miller’s Guest Post, Part Two

Ken Miller’s Final Guest Post: Looking Forward

The only relevant question at this point is why the Discovery Institute keeps highlighting its own failings in this way. Why are Casey and his employers now — three years after the Dover trial — trying to rehabilitate the tattered credibility of both Michael Behe and Pandas? What mischief are they planning now? The only conclusion I can draw is that they must be maneuvering for the next round of state board hearings or legislative sessions — and I’m concerned. These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard.

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718 comments
1 Karridine  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:49:32pm

Great!
Don't give them ANY slack!

2 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:50:44pm

OT -- repost from last thread:

Hey guys, I need a hand from the Lizard-Army...

I saw a graphic recently (similar to the one Charles posted here) that show Israeli killed and wounded caused by Gazan Rockets and Mortars. Does anybody know where that is?

I need it rather urgently.

Please e-mail me if you find it (blue name)

3 transient  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:53:12pm

Will definitely be reading these links later. Now, alas, I must work.

4 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:55:12pm

What do facts have to do with this?

5 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:55:28pm

re: #2 Joo-LiZ

OT -- repost from last thread:

Hey guys, I need a hand from the Lizard-Army...

I saw a graphic recently (similar to the one Charles posted here) that show Israeli killed and wounded caused by Gazan Rockets and Mortars. Does anybody know where that is?

I need it rather urgently.

Please e-mail me if you find it (blue name)

Your nic wasn't blue.
But I saw graphics like these (or it may have been these, I can't recall) either at HotAir, Ace of Spades or Gateway Pundit. Check them out.

6 yochanan  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:55:54pm

is that I.E.D. or I.D. If it is about the hamassholes it got to be I.E.D. since there isn't any intelligence one way or the other their.

7 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:56:49pm

Charles - I normally wouldn't post such a link in the top 20 comments, but you have got to look at this propaganda pic.

It implies that the tunnels into Gaza are used for the purpose of smuggling sheep (yes - because the joooos are that evil).

A new low for AFP.

8 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:56:55pm
...and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard.

Always.

9 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:58:00pm

I demand equal time for Cthulu Mythos Creationism and Flying Spaghetti Monster in the classroom.

But those invisible Pink Unicorn bastards can screw right off.

10 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:58:17pm

The Disco Institute has never let facts get in the way of a good argument.

11 Karridine  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:58:49pm

It is a real, rational PLEASURE to read those posts, with their logic, their patient footnoting and reliance on reality. (NOT Behe... Ken Miller!)

12 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:58:58pm

After many warnings, the dinosaurs continued to launch rocket and mortar attacks at their stronger neighbors...

13 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:59:10pm

Un-occupied Gaza split in half by Israeli tanks. China with a blue water navy going after Somali pirates. Afghan offensive being prepared by Americans. Iran revving up the centrifuges.

And now a Dem president starting.

Wonder what we'll be cleaning up in ten years?

14 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 7:59:55pm

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I demand equal time for Cthulu Mythos Creationism and Flying Spaghetti Monster in the classroom.

But those invisible Pink Unicorn bastards can screw right off.

They tried that in the Arkham school system, but the results were unspeakable.

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:00:03pm

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

So true on so many levels.

16 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:00:03pm

re: #12 experiencedtraveller

After many warnings, the dinosaurs continued to launch rocket and mortar attacks at their stronger neighbors...

Thats just the militant wing. I'm sure we can negotiate with the political wing.

17 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:00:55pm

re: #14 Kosh's Shadow

They tried that in the Arkham school system, but the results were unspeakable.

Show and Tell was always great.

For the survivors anyways.

18 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:01:49pm

re: #7 karmic_inquisitor

Why does the shepherd need to hide his face behind a rag while guiding his sheep through a tunnel?

19 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:03:19pm

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I demand equal time for Cthulu Mythos Creationism and Flying Spaghetti Monster in the classroom.

But those invisible Pink Unicorn bastards can screw right off.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't a monster! Clearly, you have not been touched by His noodley appendage!

20 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:03:24pm

re: #18 Mich-again

Why does the shepherd need to hide his face behind a rag while guiding his sheep through a tunnel?


Waiting for the punchline.

21 Racer X  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:03:26pm

re: #18 Mich-again

Why does the shepherd need to hide his face behind a rag while guiding his sheep through a tunnel?

The bride should not see the groom's face prior to the wedding.

22 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:03:37pm

re: #18 Mich-again

Can't look at the bride on wedding day, silly.

23 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:04:31pm

re: #20 BignJames

Waiting for the punchline.

see 21 and 22. Ha.

24 Summer Seale  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:05:52pm

What's this?

More anti-Koranic propaganda?

Don't you know that the Koran denies Evolution?

Charles, how dare you? =)

25 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:05:57pm

re: #18 Mich-again

Why does the shepherd need to hide his face behind a rag while guiding his sheep through a tunnel?

Notice that he has no shoes - just a poor sheep herder trying to add to his flock. My tear ducts are welling up.

26 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:06:02pm

re: #19 Dianna

The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't a monster! Clearly, you have not been touched by His noodley appendage!

I still think the Spaghetti question hasn't been sufficiently examined. How can we be sure it was spaghetti? Perhaps it was linguine or fettucci. I understand some Asian theologians are now arguing perhaps it was perhaps ramen or soba noodles.

I think they all need equal time in the classroom.

27 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:06:47pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I still think the Spaghetti question hasn't been sufficiently examined. How can we be sure it was spaghetti? Perhaps it was linguine or fettucci. I understand some Asian theologians are now arguing perhaps it was perhaps ramen or soba noodles.

I think they all need equal time in the classroom.

It's the Ziti, man!

28 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:07:16pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yes, Pastafarianism has had some problems with sectarianism, lately.

29 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:07:47pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I still think the Spaghetti question hasn't been sufficiently examined. How can we be sure it was spaghetti? Perhaps it was linguine or fettucci. I understand some Asian theologians are now arguing perhaps it was perhaps ramen or soba noodles.

I think they all need equal time in the classroom.

You are correct --I heard rumors that genetically modified semolina could have been used to make the pasta in question. That leads to ethical questions of algore proportions.

30 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:07:58pm

*cue up the Raggae*

Keel de white pasta

31 esch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:09:08pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I understand some Asian theologians are now arguing perhaps it was perhaps ramen or soba noodles.

Ah that explains everything.

Hail sObama!

32 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:09:11pm

re: #30 spirochete

*cue up the Raggae*

Keel de white pasta

Not fair to Reggae! All they care about is that "no pope" escape.

33 Racer X  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:09:35pm

Kids these days....

34 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:09:45pm

re: #29 ggt

You are correct --I heard rumors that genetically modified semolina could have been used to make the pasta in question. That leads to ethical questions of algore proportions.

And was the original primal ooze a ragu or a marinara?

35 Karridine  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:10:12pm

re: #18 Mich-again

Why does the shepherd need to hide his face behind a rag while guiding his sheep through a tunnel?

So the sheep can't point him out in a lineup...

36 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:10:36pm

I didn't come from no Manicotti!

37 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:11:20pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

And was the original primal ooze a ragu or a marinara?

Or maybe an alfredo sauce?

38 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:11:33pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Careful guys, this could last all night.

39 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:11:41pm

re: #28 Dianna

Yes, Pastafarianism has had some problems with sectarianism, lately.

I can understand the split between the Italian and the Asian Noodles, but those Mac and Cheese bastards are just fricking nutballs.

40 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:12:20pm

re: #35 Karridine

So the sheep can't point him out in a lineup...

Sheep: He's the one! I've been fleeced?

Baaaah

41 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:12:23pm

re: #19 Dianna

The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't a monster! Clearly, you have not been touched by His noodley appendage!

They've never experienced the warmth of his meatballs either, I'll warrant.

42 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:12:46pm

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

43 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:12:54pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

And was the original primal ooze a ragu or a marinara?

red gravy!

44 mattm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:12:56pm

OT a "real time" look at who donated 0ver $200 to The 0ne's inauguration.

[Link: www.pic2009.org...]

This is supposed to prove that they don't do this

Unlike previous inaugural committees, the 2009 PIC does not accept contributions from corporations, political action committees, labor unions, current federally-registered lobbyists, non-U.S. citizens and registered foreign agents and does not accept individual contributions in excess of $50,000.

Check out these, as they don't take money from NON us citizens. Hmmm...


Simon Clark Fidelity Ventures London NA 00000 $50,000.00

and

D Tiana Everitt Del Castillo Not employed Madrid na 28013 $50,000.00

and


Robert Roche President Shanghai na 200336 $50,000.00

Now, they COULD be citizens but given past issues...

45 Karridine  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:13:02pm

re: #38 spirochete

Careful guys, this could last all night.

Ah, but I cannot... I must hie me to downtown Bangkok, on errands of necessity...

/bbiaw, about 4 hours from now, Grid willing...

46 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:13:06pm

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can understand the split between the Italian and the Asian Noodles, but those Mac and Cheese bastards are just fricking nutballs.

It's a simple misunderstanding of the founding documents!

47 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:13:13pm

re: #38 spirochete

Careful guys, this could last all night.

I certainly hope so!

48 Karridine  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:14:03pm

re: #40 Kosh's Shadow

Down ding in the offing! :D

/baa-ad

49 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:14:11pm

re: #37 Kosh's Shadow

Or maybe an alfredo sauce?

Quuick, we need a grant. Get some conference space, caterers, nice hotel rooms with complimetary fruit baskets, free flights for all, pricey speakers...

Oh wait, that was my gf's mother in the education field..and she's retired and on full pension.

50 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:14:22pm

re: #42 stretch

Would you care to explain that statement?

So far as I am aware, there is no such thing as an "evolutionist."

51 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:14:36pm

They are confused; They shot themselves in the foot when they used a rewrite of a Creationist textbook to present Intelligent Design. The Intelligent design book had already been ruled unacceptable. Transposing the words in the book merely added deception to the mix. The book had already been ruled upon; the judge would be undoing a previous judges ruling. The actual arguments of evolution vs creationism, seem to me to be irrelevant. They screwed themselves by being too lazy or inept to come up with a new book. This case will not resurrect. They are going to need a new "Timmy".

"A new Timmy";

Youtube Video
52 kiwiviv  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:15:02pm

Sorry - I just HAVE to post this in here:

What does the Palestinian do with his fly infested coffee?

The Palestinian blames the Israeli for the fly falling into his coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, the German and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of tea to the Palestinian.

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:15:22pm

re: #51 swamprat

They are confused; They shot themselves in the foot when they used a rewrite of a Creationist textbook to present Intelligent Design. The Intelligent design book had already been ruled unacceptable. Transposing the words in the book merely added deception to the mix. The book had already been ruled upon; the judge would be undoing a previous judges ruling. The actual arguments of evolution vs creationism, seem to me to be irrelevant. They screwed themselves by being too lazy or inept to come up with a new book. This case will not resurrect. They are going to need a new "Timmy".

"A new Timmy";

[Video]

I want a new Kenny!

54 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:15:24pm

re: #38 spirochete

Careful guys, this could last all night.

She certainly hopes so.

55 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:15:41pm

re: #42 stretch

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

He's actually quite correct. Philip Johnson and the other folks at the Discovery Institute are much better at politics and pr than they are at science, and it shows in how they choose to apply themselves.

56 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:15:51pm

re: #49 spirochete

Quuick, we need a grant. Get some conference space, caterers, nice hotel rooms with complimetary fruit baskets, free flights for all, pricey speakers...

Oh wait, that was my gf's mother in the education field..and she's retired and on full pension.

We have to do research in the right place. While a trip to Boston's North End might be nice, we really need to do research in Italy. Where can I get a grant?

57 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:16:46pm

Thy power throughout the Universe displayed.

58 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:17:14pm

re: #50 Dianna

Would you care to explain that statement?

So far as I am aware, there is no such thing as an "evolutionist."

sure, an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution and the orgin of life are entirely naturalistic and supported by emprical evidence and the scientific method, but they have never observed in a testable fashion any creature changing from one species into another.

59 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:17:18pm

re: #42 stretch

You're just completely disconnected from reality aren't you?

60 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:17:44pm

re: #42 stretch

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

Here come the creationists.

61 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:17:59pm

re: #56 Kosh's Shadow

We have to do research in the right place. While a trip to Boston's North End might be nice, we really need to do research in Italy. Where can I get a grant?

[Link: stupidcelebrities.net...]

62 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:18:26pm

re: #60 Charles

Here come the creationists.

Creating negative Karma. -642

63 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:18:28pm

re: #58 stretch

sure, an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution and the orgin of life are entirely naturalistic and supported by emprical evidence and the scientific method, but they have never observed in a testable fashion any creature changing from one species into another.

Have creationists observed in a testable fashion what they claim to be true?

64 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:19:40pm

re: #58 stretch

So, essentially, you want us to rehash the last six months of debate?

No.

I will wait, and watch someone with infinite patience - such as Salamantis - repeat all the arguments, while you sputter and quibble and raise irrelevant objections.

65 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:20:32pm

re: #63 traderjoe9

Have creationists observed in a testable fashion what they claim to be true?

Well, they couldn't, you know. It all occurred before anyone could test.

66 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:20:59pm

I should also add that I think the DI's approach of trying to introduce an alternative to humanism in the public schools is pointless. The only problem with public school is that it is still free for those who could afford to pay their own way. Once all the freeloaders are kicked out, or required to pay their own way, they will pay much more attention to what their kids are "learning".

67 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:21:05pm

re: #63 traderjoe9

Have creationists observed in a testable fashion what they claim to be true?

gmta!

68 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:21:22pm

re: #60 Charles

Here come the creationists.

i'm just one guy, promise

69 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:21:40pm

Got one in the box already, I see...

70 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:21:41pm

re: #58 stretch

sure, an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution and the orgin of life are entirely naturalistic and supported by emprical evidence and the scientific method, but they have never observed in a testable fashion any creature changing from one species into another.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but thats bullshit:

Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island


Italian wall lizards introduced to a tiny island off the coast of Croatia are evolving in ways that would normally take millions of years to play out, new research shows.

In just a few decades the 5-inch-long (13-centimeter-long) lizards have developed a completely new gut structure, larger heads, and a harder bite, researchers say.

In 1971, scientists transplanted five adult pairs of the reptiles from their original island home in Pod Kopiste to the tiny neighboring island of Pod Mrcaru, both in the south Adriatic Sea.

Genetic testing on the Pod Mrcaru lizards confirmed that the modern population of more than 5,000 Italian wall lizards are all descendants of the original ten lizards left behind in the 1970s.

SCIENCE!

71 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:21:46pm

Thoughts on stretch:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

72 phoenixgirl  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:22:41pm

re: #66 stretch

we pay taxes that go to the public school...the only free loaders are those that don't pay taxes

73 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:22:49pm

re: #63 traderjoe9

Have creationists observed in a testable fashion what they claim to be true?

Are you saying that creation and evolution are on equal footing in backing up in a testable fashion what they claim? that's a very intriguing response to the post. Evolution should stand on its own, whether there are alternatives or not.

74 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:22:56pm

re: #66 stretch


Public schools ain't free....not if you're a property owner.

75 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:23:10pm

re: #70 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think the objection there is going to be "well, that's still a lizard, it hasn't changed into a bird or a fish."

76 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:23:16pm

re: #66 stretch

I'm trying to figure out where to start on that statement, and there's just soooo much. For one thing, you clearly have no idea of the actual history or philosophy of the public education system.

77 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:24:10pm

re: #65 Dianna

Well, they couldn't, you know. It all occurred before anyone could test.

I'm no biologist...but I actually have heard of tests that scientists conduct with rapidly reproducing animals like fruit flies that serves as proof for evolution. Anybody know anything more about this?

78 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:24:29pm

re: #70 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

SCIENCE!

I missed the part where the lizards became a different species, no longer able to procreate with other descendents from their "ancestral lines" Could you point that part out again please?

79 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:24:58pm

re: #73 stretch

Are you saying that creation and evolution are on equal footing in backing up in a testable fashion what they claim? that's a very intriguing response to the post. Evolution should stand on its own, whether there are alternatives or not.

Ah...no, actually.

Evolution posits testable - though complex - hypotheses.

Creationism cannot - by its very nature - be tested.

They are not equivalent, and cannot be made to be.

80 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:25:43pm

re: #58 stretch

sure, an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution and the orgin of life are entirely naturalistic and supported by emprical evidence and the scientific method, but they have never observed in a testable fashion any creature changing from one species into another.

Name one physical phenomenon that has been discovered to have a non naturalistic - ie supernatural - explanation.

81 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:25:48pm

re: #77 traderjoe9

So far out of my field that the instant I start linking, I'm outclassed. You'd actually do better to google on your own.

82 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:26:23pm

re: #74 BignJames

Public schools ain't free....not if you're a property owner.

Yeah they are, unless you want to say that private school and homeschool families should be exempt from property taxes. If you think your property taxes pay your own way, what would your standard of living be like if you had to pay for private school? THe difference would be the amount of subsidization that the taxpayers provide to you - which may make you a freeloader

83 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:26:33pm

re: #57 MandyManners

Said in a different way, but with the same flavor.

The unwearied sun from day to day
does his Creator's power display;
and publishes to every land
the work of an almighty hand.

Soon as the evening shades prevail,
the moon takes up the wondrous tale,
and nightly to the listening earth
repeats the story of her birth:
whilst all the stars that round her burn,
and all the planets in their turn,
confirm the tidings, as they roll
and spread the truth from pole to pole.

What though in solemn silence all
move round the dark terrestrial ball?
What though no real voice nor sound
amid their radiant orbs be found?
In reason's ear they all rejoice,
and utter forth a glorious voice;
for ever singing as they shine,
"The hand that made us is divine."

Some see science as proof of no god, and some the other way, but you have to be pretty jaded not to appreciate the wonder of it all, no matter where you stand.

84 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:26:38pm

re: #75 jaunte

I think the objection there is going to be "well, that's still a lizard, it hasn't changed into a bird or a fish."

In other words, the perfect example of an irrelevant quibble.

85 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:26:41pm

re: #73 stretch

Are you saying that creation and evolution are on equal footing in backing up in a testable fashion what they claim? that's a very intriguing response to the post. Evolution should stand on its own, whether there are alternatives or not.

mwahh?!

86 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:27:27pm

I've been wondering for a long time what Miller has been up too. I haven't seen a good skier movie in years.

wha?... you said KEN Miller ,,,,, oh ,, thought this was about Warren Miller ,,,, ummm,, nevahmind !

87 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:27:33pm

re: #78 stretch

I missed the part where the lizards became a different species, no longer able to procreate with other descendents from their "ancestral lines" Could you point that part out again please?

Irrelevant quibble!

Woot! I called it!

88 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:27:49pm

re: #5 reine.de.tout

Thanks. Should be now.

Sorry for going OT so soon, but I really need the help.

Thanks again!

89 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:28:08pm

re: #79 Dianna

Ah...no, actually.

Evolution posits testable - though complex - hypotheses.

Creationism cannot - by its very nature - be tested.

They are not equivalent, and cannot be made to be.

so back to the original statement - evolutionists believe in what they can't see, and by very nature cannot be testable: a naturalistic origin for life, and a miraculous and unknown, unobserved mechanism for one species changing into another

90 Super-ego  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:28:35pm

re: #77 traderjoe9

I'm no biologist...but I actually have heard of tests that scientists conduct with rapidly reproducing animals like fruit flies that serves as proof for evolution. Anybody know anything more about this?

I have done some reading on that. The only issue I can see is that the fruit flies are still fruit flies after the evolution or mutation process has taken place. They don't transition to some other species. That's about all I know. Which ain't much.

91 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:28:56pm

re: #82 stretch


I don't have kids in school....not for 20+ years...I still pay property taxes.

92 esch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:29:02pm

Ah thread, I hardly knew ye.

93 nanook  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:29:04pm
Youtube Video

Praise his noodley appendage!

94 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:29:36pm

re: #80 Jimmah

Name one physical phenomenon that has been discovered to have a non naturalistic - ie supernatural - explanation.


if you believe in the 'big bang', then you could claim that one as being "supernatural"

95 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:30:08pm

re: #78 stretch

I missed the part where the lizards became a different species, no longer able to procreate with other descendents from their "ancestral lines" Could you point that part out again please?

To satisfy stretch - a dog must give birth to a giraffe, or something like that. He doesn't seem to understand that evolution is gradualistic.

96 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:30:15pm

re: #42 stretch

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

I reckon you'll be pretty happy when the Islamic Creationists have teachers on public payroll!

97 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:30:46pm

re: #89 stretch

so back to the original statement - evolutionists believe in what they can't see, and by very nature cannot be testable: a naturalistic origin for life, and a miraculous and unknown, unobserved mechanism for one species changing into another

Simply incorrect.

This debate has been thrashed out, publicly, for the last six months. Example after example has been either a front-page post or linked in the comments or spin-offs.

Invincible ignorance has been tried. It still doesn't hold up.

98 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:30:49pm

re: #78 stretch

I missed the part where the lizards became a different species, no longer able to procreate with other descendents from their "ancestral lines" Could you point that part out again please?

Inability to procreate with ancestral stock is not a requirement to be considered a new species, merely that they can procreate viable offspring along their same line.

99 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:30:54pm

OT

4-5" Fresh snow at my house in the last 2 hours. Supposed to warm up and turn to rain soon.

100 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:31:36pm

re: #82 stretch

Yeah they are, unless you want to say that private school and homeschool families should be exempt from property taxes. If you think your property taxes pay your own way, what would your standard of living be like if you had to pay for private school? THe difference would be the amount of subsidization that the taxpayers provide to you - which may make you a freeloader


Private schooling is a choice....try not paying your property taxes.

101 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:31:43pm

re: #91 BignJames

I don't have kids in school....not for 20+ years...I still pay property taxes.

as well you should, as do i. The point still is that if you can afford to pay for something yourself, don't expect a handout, a check in the mail, or a free lunch or free schooling. Those things are for the poor.

102 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:31:48pm

I.Q.=Irrelevant quibble

103 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:32:46pm

re: #97 Dianna

Simply incorrect.

This debate has been thrashed out, publicly, for the last six months. Example after example has been either a front-page post or linked in the comments or spin-offs.

Invincible ignorance has been tried. It still doesn't hold up.

fine, show one experiment that produces life, or one that shows a species changing into another species, and I'll concede

104 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:32:51pm

The politics behind what Miller is describing are interesting.
I'm very curious about what their next move will be.

"If ID surrogates in Louisiana, Texas, and other states are to argue that evolution is a controversial idea with serious scientific flaws, they’ve got a problem. They know that the parents and educators backing genuine science education for American students will pick up the Dover decision and cite chapter and verse from its ringing indictment of everything that Casey and the Discover Institute stand for. They also know that state legislators and school board members will consider the legal troubles that beset Dover and decide to pass on Discovery’s persistent offers to guide them along the path of undermining evolution. In short, if Kitzmiller v. Dover stands, they’re done for.

But they can’t appeal the case — only the Dover School Board could have done that. Unfortunately for the Discovery Institute, it lost that opportunity in November of 2005, when the voters of Dover threw out their pro-ID Board and replaced it with one entirely happy with the decision that Judge Jones rendered six weeks later.

So, they’ve got only one recourse — to produce a revisionist narrative showing that the decision was flawed. Clearly they hope that their surrogates will then be able to pick up that narrative and use it to counter the scientific and legal disaster that was Kitzmiller v. Dover."

105 phoenixgirl  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:32:52pm

re: #101 stretch

as well you should, as do i. The point still is that if you can afford to pay for something yourself, don't expect a handout, a check in the mail, or a free lunch or free schooling. Those things are for the poor.

? gov't school is not free

106 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:33:04pm

re: #89 stretch

so back to the original statement - evolutionists believe in what they can't see, and by very nature cannot be testable: a naturalistic origin for life, and a miraculous and unknown, unobserved mechanism for one species changing into another

What are you talking about? Evolution has always been based on what people have seen, fossil evidence being the most prominent. You claim that earth was created in six days but did you observe that?

Are you saying people can't observe evolution today? Links have already been posted proving that studies on evolution have been conducted and proved in other species.

107 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:33:14pm

re: #93 nanook

His image shown with meatballs!

You are a heretic! Blasphemer!

108 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:33:19pm

re: #66 stretch

I should also add that I think the DI's approach of trying to introduce an alternative to humanism in the public schools is pointless. The only problem with public school is that it is still free for those who could afford to pay their own way. Once all the freeloaders are kicked out, or required to pay their own way, they will pay much more attention to what their kids are "learning".

Oh, for pity's sake. Public schools ARE FREE. No one is required to pay one bloody cent to send her kids there.

What planet are you from?

109 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:33:43pm

re: #89 stretch

so back to the original statement - evolutionists believe in what they can't see, and by very nature cannot be testable: a naturalistic origin for life, and a miraculous and unknown, unobserved mechanism for one species changing into another

No, sir. We believe that evolution is the explanation of the observed changes in species that best fits the evidence.

110 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:34:17pm

re: #74 BignJames

Public schools ain't free....not if you're a property owner.

Even renters pay!

111 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:34:47pm

re: #94 stretch

if you believe in the 'big bang', then you could claim that one as being "supernatural"

No, I asked you if you could supply an example of something that has been demonstrated to have a supernatural explanation. Still waiting for that.

Some people may wish to exploit the incompleteness of our understanding of the universes origin to speculate about a divine origin, that's not the same thing at all.

112 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:35:29pm

re: #110 MandyManners

Yep....$ale$ tax.

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:35:39pm

I had to step away for a moment. Have we come to a consensus on the pasta debacle?

and do you think the outcome will explain why Mike Huckabee has a TV show?

114 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:36:14pm

re: #108 MandyManners

Oh, for pity's sake. Public schools ARE FREE. No one is required to pay one bloody cent to send her kids there.

What planet are you from?

Sorry Mandy, but whether your a hoemowner (property taxes) or a renter (part of your rent goes to pay your landlords taxes) or if you buy anything (most cities/towns sales taxes go in part to the public schools) as well as everyones Fed incomd=e tax (which the feds send back to schools) PUBLIC ED is ANYTHING but "free"

115 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:36:30pm

re: #83 swamprat

I've never heard those lyrics before.

I was looking--for a long time tonight--for an A Cappella version of the song, the kind I grew up with. Any idea?

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:36:48pm

re: #113 ggt

Because, for "rubes" (like me) he's a likable guy?

117 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:36:51pm

re: #113 ggt

do you think the outcome will explain why Mike Huckabee has a TV show?

I think everyone was exhausted after the long political campaign and just wanted to be lulled to sleep.

118 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:37:06pm

re: #107 swamprat

His image shown with meatballs!

You are a heretic! Blasphemer!

Are you a Pastafarian, ploome?

A tomato-base purist, or will you allow a meat sauce, provided we don't depict meatballs?

119 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:37:15pm

re: #89 stretch

so back to the original statement - evolutionists believe in what they can't see, and by very nature cannot be testable: a naturalistic origin for life, and a miraculous and unknown, unobserved mechanism for one species changing into another

Keep on throwing out those $1.59 words, Stretch.

120 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:37:17pm

In another day and age, Stretch would be arguing the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth and that sea serpents live at the edge of the world.

121 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:37:45pm

re: #113 ggt

I had to step away for a moment. Have we come to a consensus on the pasta debacle?

Have you been touched with his noddly appendage?

122 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:38:13pm

re: #108 MandyManners

Oh, for pity's sake. Public schools ARE FREE. No one is required to pay one bloody cent to send her kids there.

What planet are you from?

Planet "start a huge fight so no one notices irrelevant quibbles".

123 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:38:15pm

re: #113 ggt

I had to step away for a moment. Have we come to a consensus on the pasta debacle?

and do you think the outcome will explain why Mike Huckabee has a TV show?

thats easy. PAY BACK, he was by far the most easily accesable candidate for any and all Fox programs during the election

124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:38:44pm

]re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It isn't? It doesn't? They don't?

125 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:38:46pm

re: #113 ggt

I had to step away for a moment. Have we come to a consensus on the pasta debacle?

and do you think the outcome will explain why Mike Huckabee has a TV show?


Well, they gotta make tv shows outta something....except Seinfeld.

126 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:39:08pm

re: #113 ggt

Not as long as those meat-ballers exist!

127 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:39:33pm

re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In another day and age, Stretch would be arguing the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth and that sea serpents live at the edge of the world.

Its too bad there isn't an edge of the world, or else I'd have a simple solution for radical Islamists.

128 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:39:37pm

re: #103 stretch

fine, show one experiment that produces life, or one that shows a species changing into another species, and I'll concede

Why would that be needed? Going back to the issue of feathers: Do you have a explanation for the evidence that fits the facts better than evolution?

129 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:39:45pm

re: #89 stretch

As a Christian, you are duty bound not to bear false witness (i.e. lie) You should remember that.

130 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:40:01pm

Hey guys, clip and paste some of "Stretch's" clever verbiage into Google.

131 jwb7605  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:40:34pm

re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In another day and age, Stretch would be arguing the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth and that sea serpents live at the edge of the world.

Maybe it is, and maybe it does!

132 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:40:47pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Hey guys, clip and paste some of "Stretch's" clever verbiage into Google.

It just goes back to the Discovery Institute.

133 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:40:54pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Because, for "rubes" (like me) he's a likable guy?

He is a likeable guy and sometimes I enjoy parts of his show, but I get these Lawrence Welk vibes when I do that just don't sit right.

134 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:42:23pm

re: #118 Dianna

Are you a Pastafarian, ploome?

A tomato-base purist, or will you allow a meat sauce, provided we don't depict meatballs?

*No animals were harmed in the production of this pasta*

135 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:42:35pm

re: #42 stretch

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

Stretch - what exactly is the "evolutionist agenda"?
I want my funds (including the taxes I pay to support public schools, as well as the tuition I pay for a good Catholic school) to be used for education. That includes education in the currently proven and accepted scientific findings. The fact that my daughter attends a Catholic school means that she will also receive education about our faith, separate and apart from science, which is good, because our faith is just that - faith, not science, and it is strong enough to stand on its own.

It is not right (or desirable or appropriate) to "water down" science to include faith matters, nor is it right (or desirable or appropriate) to "water down" our faith by inserting it into science courses.

It would not be right (or desirable or appropriate) for public school courses to remove from parents the right and responsibility for teaching their children the faith of their choice.

136 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:42:35pm

re: #132 Dianna

It just goes back to the Discovery Institute.

And I need to apologize when I said "guys." All of you males, females and Zombie's are all contributors to these wonderful debates.

137 phoenixgirl  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:42:39pm

re: #133 ggt

He is a likeable guy and sometimes I enjoy parts of his show, but I get these Lawrence Welk vibes when I do that just don't sit right.

he creeps me out

138 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:42:46pm

I like turtles.

139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:42:48pm

re: #133 ggt

He is a likeable guy and sometimes I enjoy parts of his show, but I get these Lawrence Welk vibes when I do that just don't sit right.

That's the point. I freaking LOVED "The Lawrence Welk" show.

Tonight (was listening, not watching) he had the AFLAC CEO on who wouldn't take a "Golden Parachute"....

...And Elvis impersonators.

140 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:43:13pm

Stretch,

Question for you.

I take it you believe in the Creator.

Do you believe in his Creation?

Do you believe what His Creation tells us?

So it should like you would say yes to 1&2 but no to 3.

Why would you discount what God's own creation tells us?

141 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:43:31pm

re: #82 stretch

Yeah they are, unless you want to say that private school and homeschool families should be exempt from property taxes. If you think your property taxes pay your own way, what would your standard of living be like if you had to pay for private school? THe difference would be the amount of subsidization that the taxpayers provide to you - which may make you a freeloader

I pay private school tuition, to the tune of about $1,000.00/month. On top of that is about $400.00/mo. in fees, gas and other costs. In no shape or form am I subsidized by the other taxpayers. In fact, considering what I pay in property taxes, I can guaranfuckingtee you that I am subsidizing many.

Now, if that didn't exactly address what you were trying to say, you might want to reframe your statement.

142 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:44:10pm

re: #134 ggt


Garlic and olive oil. Unreformed.

143 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:44:17pm

re: #138 spirochete

I like turtles.

So do I; there is something infinitely friendly and good about turtles.

144 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:44:19pm

re: #138 spirochete

I like turtles.

LGF unwritten rules #657. That statement must be accompanied by the link....

Youtube Video

;-P

145 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:44:44pm

Stretch thinks it's bad science to look for a naturalistic explanation for biological diversity; he thinks the scientifically rigorous thing to do would be to plump for a supernatural explanation, even though the supernatural has never had an explanatory role in explaining any phenomenon. What a joke.

Still waiting, stretch.

146 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:44:49pm

re: #103 stretch

fine, show one experiment that produces life, or one that shows a species changing into another species, and I'll concede

Do you really believe the moronic shit you are spewing?

147 phoenixgirl  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:44:51pm

re: #143 Dianna

So do I; there is something infinitely friendly and good about turtles.

uh, not snapping turtles

148 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:45:15pm

re: #112 BignJames

Yep....$ale$ tax.

They pay it in rent. Land-owners include their property taxes in their rents.

149 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:45:36pm

re: #143 Dianna

So do I; there is something infinitely friendly and good about turtles.


mmmm....fried turtle.....mmmm

150 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:45:42pm

re: #119 MandyManners

Keep on throwing out those $1.59 words, Stretch.

don't we have a $5 minimum?

151 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:46:11pm

Well I finally got banned from Daily Kos...

152 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:46:17pm

re: #150 ggt

don't we have a $5 minimum?

Damn, all I got is two bit words.....

153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:46:38pm

re: #143 Dianna

So do I; there is something infinitely friendly and good about turtles.

The most evil thing that I ever saw in person was a bully type stomping a live turtle. 40 years ago. Still haunts me.

I may be sheltered, but that was the pure face of evil to me.

154 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:46:40pm

re: #114 sattv4u2

Sorry Mandy, but whether your a hoemowner (property taxes) or a renter (part of your rent goes to pay your landlords taxes) or if you buy anything (most cities/towns sales taxes go in part to the public schools) as well as everyones Fed incomd=e tax (which the feds send back to schools) PUBLIC ED is ANYTHING but "free"

Whatever. You know what I mean.

155 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #115 MandyManners

I've never heard those lyrics before.

I was looking--for a long time tonight--for an A Cappella version of the song, the kind I grew up with. Any idea?

No. The stuff on youtube is absolute garbage.

156 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:01pm

re: #151 traderjoe9

Well I finally got banned from Daily Kos...

Let me guess...
Israel is justified in defending itself..... or something on those lines.

157 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:08pm

re: #148 MandyManners

They pay it in rent. Land-owners include their property taxes in their rents.


yep, too.

158 jwb7605  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:09pm

re: #151 traderjoe9

Well I finally got banned from Daily Kos...

How long did that take you?
Whatever the answer is, how have you changed? Are you enlightened?

159 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:23pm

re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In another day and age, Stretch would be arguing the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth and that sea serpents live at the edge of the world.

THERE BE DRAGONS!

160 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:32pm

re: #121 jcm

Have you been touched with his noddly appendage?

Oh, I certainly hope not. If I was, it was back when I was drinking and I don't remember.

I hope that won't count against me when I meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates ™

161 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:53pm

re: #122 Dianna

Planet "start a huge fight so no one notices irrelevant quibbles".

Hamas has another galaxy?

162 badger1970  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:47:54pm

OK, I'm confused. What part of creationism theory should I hate? The Islamic one, the Christian evangelistic one, the Intelligent design one or do I just support that evolutionist one that states man is no more special than a monkey scratching its butt with Uncle Bobo and Aunt Peanut jumping on Samsonite luggage? /s

OT, what's the best way to ignore 1/20/09?

163 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:48:18pm

Gordy Slack wrote a very readable account of the Dover trial that I strongly recommend to anyone interested in this subject:
The Battle Over the Meaning of Everything: Evolution, Intelligent Design, and a School Board in Dover, PA
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

164 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:48:26pm

re: #153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I once saw a huge turtle on a highway get run over by a semi. Big pink cloud.

165 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:48:30pm

re: #145 Jimmah

Stretch thinks it's bad science to look for a naturalistic explanation for biological diversity; he thinks the scientifically rigorous thing to do would be to plump for a supernatural explanation, even though the supernatural has never had an explanatory role in explaining any phenomenon. What a joke.

Still waiting, stretch.

and in my opinion, in doing this, Stretch is insulting God by rejecting the intelligence and sense and ability to think logically that God gave us to figure out this wonderful and beautiful and incredibly complex world He gave us.

166 phoenixgirl  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:49:11pm

re: #164 spirochete

yuck

167 Super-ego  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:49:12pm

I'm gonna go off on this bunny trail right here. My wife put together some songs for our 2 year old son to listen to at bedtime. I had not heard this song until I heard that cd. Here is one of the songs.

Billy Joel - Lullabye (Goodnight, My Angel)

Youtube Video

The original video will not play, so this is just the song.

Maybe this can lighten this thread up a little.

168 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:49:41pm

re: #162 badger1970

OK, I'm confused. What part of creationism theory should I hate? The Islamic one, the Christian evangelistic one, the Intelligent design one or do I just support that evolutionist one that states man is no more special than a monkey scratching its butt with Uncle Bobo and Aunt Peanut jumping on Samsonite luggage? /s

OT, what's the best way to ignore 1/20/09?

Get busy and jump on your luggage on 1-20-2009.

169 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:49:53pm

re: #151 traderjoe9

Well I finally got banned from Daily Kos...

Yipppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

170 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:50:10pm

re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's the point. I freaking LOVED "The Lawrence Welk" show.

Tonight (was listening, not watching) he had the AFLAC CEO on who wouldn't take a "Golden Parachute"....

...And Elvis impersonators.

I think it was the Elvis impersonators that creeped me out tonite. There is always something.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Huckabee --although not for POTUS. or a TV host.

171 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:50:24pm

re: #156 jcm

Let me guess...
Israel is justified in defending itself..... or something on those lines.

You mean what I said to get banned?

I was very polite for a couple days...but today I just snapped.

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:50:26pm

re: #164 spirochete

I don't even pause if I hit a critter. I would avoid doing so at all costs, so I do not feel guilty if a squirrel runs in front of my car while I am doing fifty miles an hour.

I would wish death upon someone who would swerve to hit one though.

173 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:50:27pm

re: #155 swamprat

No. The stuff on youtube is absolute garbage.

I've looked for stuff from Freed Hardeman to no avail.

174 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:50:51pm

re: #142 swamprat

Garlic and olive oil. Unreformed.

How much garlic?

175 phoenixgirl  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:51:24pm

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

Get busy and jump on your luggage on 1-20-2009.

that was f'n funny

176 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:51:25pm

re: #158 jwb7605

How long did that take you?
Whatever the answer is, how have you changed? Are you enlightened?

Its been three days and three diaries to my banning. I haven't changed my views at all - liberals are still idiots.

177 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:51:39pm

re: #170 ggt


Elvis impersonators......they should form a union.

178 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:51:46pm

re: #164 spirochete

I once saw a huge turtle on a highway get run over by a semi. Big pink cloud.

Dude, not funny. Sorry, but -1.

179 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:52:12pm

re: #151 traderjoe9

Well I finally got banned from Daily Kos...

Well, i made sure it was good for your karma!

180 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:52:23pm

re: #175 phoenixgirl

that was f'n funny

Thanx's

181 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:52:28pm

re: #171 traderjoe9

You mean what I said to get banned?

I was very polite for a couple days...but today I just snapped.

Two days? You last TWO DAYS!
I bow to greatness!

I would last a few minutes at most.

What did you say?

182 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:52:42pm

re: #152 jcm

Damn, all I got is two bit words.....

Save them up, eventually you'll have enuf!

183 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:52:56pm

re: #162 badger1970

OK, I'm confused. What part of creationism theory should I hate? The Islamic one, the Christian evangelistic one, the Intelligent design one or do I just support that evolutionist one that states man is no more special than a monkey scratching its butt with Uncle Bobo and Aunt Peanut jumping on Samsonite luggage? /s

OT, what's the best way to ignore 1/20/09?

You don't have to "hate" anything. Just use the brains God gave you!

184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:53:17pm

re: #177 BignJames

Uh-Huh Local 3764? TCB Local 3764?

185 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:53:22pm

re: #179 ggt

Well, i made sure it was good for your karma!

Thanks!

If anybody is interested, this was the diary that got me banned.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:53:42pm

re: #159 MandyManners

THERETHAAAAAAR BE DRAGONS!

fixed-that for ya!

187 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:54:18pm

re: #181 jcm

Two days? You last TWO DAYS!
I bow to greatness!

I would last a few minutes at most.

What did you say?

I said: "Why are you idiots hiding my comments? Are you afraid you'll learn something?"

188 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:54:53pm

re: #183 MandyManners

You don't have to "hate" anything. Just use the brains God gave you!


But, I do hate liver.

189 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:55:06pm

re: #162 badger1970

OK, I'm confused. What part of creationism theory should I hate? The Islamic one, the Christian evangelistic one, the Intelligent design one or do I just support that evolutionist one that states man is no more special than a monkey scratching its butt with Uncle Bobo and Aunt Peanut jumping on Samsonite luggage?

Do Judaism and Christianity not teach humility ie that man is an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of God's plan?

190 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:55:25pm

re: #162 badger1970
go with the great mandella (the large vessel)
hate them all

191 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:55:28pm

re: #187 traderjoe9

I said: "Why are you idiots hiding my comments? Are you afraid you'll learn something?"

Whoa, that was really strong. It's no wonder you got banned. I hope you didn't hurt anyone's feelings?
/

192 badger1970  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:55:38pm

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

Point, set, match.

193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:55:59pm

re: #189 Spare O'Lake

I do not think that they teach that at all.

194 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:56:57pm

re: #184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Uh-Huh Local 3764? TCB Local 3764?


Yep, must all be "Jumpsuit Elvises"....or is that Elvi?

195 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:57:27pm

I'm guessing Stench has retreated to DI to dig up more talking points and sound bites.

196 Desert Dog  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:57:55pm

OT
Obama Losing Credibility with World with his Silence on Gaza

Man, talk about setting your expectations waaaay to high...it will be quite enjoyable watching the rest of the world (along with the Democrat leftwing) meltdown when they finally realize Obama is nothing more than an all talk no action empty suit......

197 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:58:04pm

re: #191 Walter L. Newton

Whoa, that was really strong. It's no wonder you got banned. I hope you didn't hurt anyone's feelings?
/

To be honest, I was extremely polite for the first two days. It sort of started pissing me off though when their only responses to my diaries was "bs propaganda." Look at the link I posted...I published it at 8:14 and the guy responded at 8:16 with "propaganda." He didn't even read the article!

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:58:06pm

re: #193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do not think that they teach that at all.

at least not in the way that I understand it. I've heard that idea taught, but I do not think it is truly what Scriptures intended to teach.

199 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:58:23pm

re: #195 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm guessing Stench has retreated to DI to dig up more talking points and sound bites.

I say that if he comes back we should spellbind him with our GAZE.

200 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:58:41pm

re: #189 Spare O'Lake

Do Judaism and Christianity not teach humility ie that man is an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of God's plan?

True, but like most scriptural things it's a duality. All of creation was made for man. While we are insignificant, we are so the most important thing in God's creation scripturally speaking.

201 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:58:47pm

re: #174 ggt

You shall not trap me, bigot!

202 Dan G.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:59:06pm

re: #143 Dianna

I am all-the-way down with turtles.

203 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:59:12pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

Dude, not funny. Sorry, but -1.

Hey, it was traumatic for me, too, I was young. Just passing along the experience. Didn't think I'd get someone's karma in a wad.

204 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:59:23pm

re: #195 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm guessing Stench has retreated to DI to dig up more talking points and sound bites.

*snif*

He hurt my feelings by not answering my question.

*snif*

//

205 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 8:59:36pm

re: #196 Desert Dog

OT
Obama Losing Credibility with World with his Silence on Gaza

Man, talk about setting your expectations waaaay to high...it will be quite enjoyable watching the rest of the world (along with the Democrat leftwing) meltdown when they finally realize Obama is nothing more than an all talk no action empty suit......

All I know is if he doesnt turn water into wine as his inauguration, there is going to be hell to pay!

206 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:00:19pm

re: #165 reine.de.tout

and in my opinion, in doing this, Stretch is insulting God by rejecting the intelligence and sense and ability to think logically that God gave us to figure out this wonderful and beautiful and incredibly complex world He gave us.

If some kind of god does exist, he doesn't interfere with the day to day running of the universe, that much is clear.

207 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:00:33pm

re: #196 Desert Dog

OT
Obama Losing Credibility with World with his Silence on Gaza

Man, talk about setting your expectations waaaay to high...it will be quite enjoyable watching the rest of the world (along with the Democrat leftwing) meltdown when they finally realize Obama is nothing more than an all talk no action empty suit......

What did people expect from a man whose signature tactic was voting 'present'?

208 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:00:37pm

re: #197 traderjoe9

To be honest, I was extremely polite for the first two days. It sort of started pissing me off though when their only responses to my diaries was "bs propaganda." Look at the link I posted...I published it at 8:14 and the guy responded at 8:16 with "propaganda." He didn't even read the article!

You realize my comment to you was sarcasm? I was being funny, not questioning you in the least.

209 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:00:39pm

re: #196 Desert Dog

OT
Obama Losing Credibility with World with his Silence on Gaza

Man, talk about setting your expectations waaaay to high...it will be quite enjoyable watching the rest of the world (along with the Democrat leftwing) meltdown when they finally realize Obama is nothing more than an all talk no action empty suit......

I'm hoping they survive the realization that he is just flesh and bones.

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:00:51pm

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I saw that too. I am not looking forward to the day when he will be speaking for us, but it is coming nevertheless.x

I pray that he is wise.

211 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:01:02pm

re: #196 Desert Dog

OT
Obama Losing Credibility with World with his Silence on Gaza

Man, talk about setting your expectations waaaay to high...it will be quite enjoyable watching the rest of the world (along with the Democrat leftwing) meltdown when they finally realize Obama is nothing more than an all talk no action empty suit......

Its been a week and the only thing Obama has said was "there is one president at a time." You would think he could reiterate what the Bush Administration said and back up Israels right to defend itself...but he did no such thing. I'm afraid that come January 20th Israel will lose its only friend in the international scene, and the U.S will stop objecting to obscene UN resolutions like they did just recently.

212 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:01:14pm

re: #203 spirochete

Hey, it was traumatic for me, too, I was young. Just passing along the experience. Didn't think I'd get someone's karma in a wad.

Sorry, I did not understand. The rating is being reversed.

213 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:01:25pm

re: #201 swamprat

You shall not trap me, bigot!

ROTFLAMO!

214 nanook  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:01:31pm

re: #107 swamprat

His image shown with meatballs!

You are a heretic! Blasphemer!

As my pirate regalia is at the cleaners, I cannot teach you the true ways of the FSM. I refer you to the sacred Webpage: [Link: www.venganza.org...]

His noodley-ness is always portrayed with his Meatballs displayed. You must be an apostate Pastafarian!

215 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:01:41pm

re: #210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I saw that too. I am not looking forward to the day when he will be speaking for us, but it is coming nevertheless.x

I pray that he is wise.

I'm praying for basic fucking competence, but I think thats going to be too much to ask for.

216 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:02:12pm

re: #206 Jimmah

If some kind of god does exist, he doesn't interfere with the day to day running of the universe, that much is clear.

I don't know about that -- it's the greatest mystery of all!

217 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:02:13pm

re: #129 MrPaulRevere

Maybe my comment at #89 scared him off. I bet he didn't even go to church today, he was probably sleeping one off.

218 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:02:18pm

re: #174 ggt

How much garlic?


Well, I can admit it. Lots and lots.

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:02:27pm

re: #215 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Maybe if I write him, he can tell me where that damn "x" in my comment came from.

220 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:02:55pm

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

You realize my comment to you was sarcasm? I was being funny, not questioning you in the least.

Don't worry, I realized that.

221 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:03:14pm

PIMF: My comment at #129

222 Dan G.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:03:57pm

re: #162 badger1970

Anyone who equates "common ancestor" to "just the same as", thereby ignoring man's conceptual faculty, is just a misanthrope. So are you saying that you need to believe in the supernatural to love humanity?

223 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:04:04pm

re: #214 nanook

As my pirate regalia is at the cleaners, I cannot teach you the true ways of the FSM. I refer you to the sacred Webpage: [Link: www.venganza.org...]

His noodley-ness is always portrayed with his Meatballs displayed. You must be an apostate Pastafarian!

Meatballs! gah

It always goes back to size with some people.

;0

224 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:04:31pm

re: #218 swamprat

Well, I can admit it. Lots and lots.

I knew you were one of the good ones!

225 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:04:40pm

re: #183 MandyManners

You don't have to "hate" anything. Just use the brains God gave you!

Nice and succinct.

226 Euler  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:04:52pm

Two virtues make a theory great:
(1) the theory explains a broad and deep mystery; and
(2) the theory is broader and deeper than even the mystery itself, and so leads to a greater truth.

The theory of adaptation by natural selection is a great theory.

227 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:05:01pm

re: #214 nanook

I think the graph of 'number of pirates versus the average global temperature' needs updating. The recent Somali festivities should bring the temps down in the near future.
[Link: www.venganza.org...]

228 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:05:15pm

re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maybe if I write him, he can tell me where that damn "x" in my comment came from.

You've been drinking again?

229 Dan G.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:05:32pm

re: #209 ggt

Why?
/

230 spirochete  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:05:46pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, I did not understand. The rating is being reversed.

No sweat.

Sleepy time tea is all gone. Time to hit the sack.

Nite to all.

231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:01pm

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

You've been drinking again?

Well. Uh. Yeah.

Damn, you're magical.

You Obama?

232 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:02pm

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

You've been drinking again still ?

233 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:12pm

re: #229 Dan G.

Why?
/

Just think what the carnage and funeral costs would cost we the taxpayers.

/

234 nanook  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:12pm

re: #227 jaunte

re: #227 jaunte

I think the graph of 'number of pirates versus the average global temperature' needs updating. The recent Somali festivities should bring the temps down in the near future.
[Link: www.venganza.org...]

You have noticed the recent cold snap, haven't you?

235 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:37pm

Hey y'all - sorry to be late to the party, again. What are we talking about at this stage in this thread?!

236 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:37pm

OT

Damn, it's 12 degrees outside.

237 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:06:54pm

re: #206 Jimmah

If some kind of god does exist, he doesn't interfere with the day to day running of the universe, that much is clear.

In my world, He does. We may not see open miracles of any sort, but they exist. At least they do in Israel...

238 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:07:01pm

re: #235 realwest

Hey y'all - sorry to be late to the party, again. What are we talking about at this stage in this thread?!

RW! Glad you are here. How do you take your pasta?

239 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:07:02pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

OT

Damn, it's 12 degrees outside.

why are you outside?

240 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:07:22pm

Baby turtles at Zooborns!

[Link: zooborns.typepad.com...]

241 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:07:34pm

re: #235 realwest

Hey y'all - sorry to be late to the party, again. What are we talking about at this stage in this thread?!

Pirates and noodly appendages!

Have you been touched?

242 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:07:52pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

OT

Damn, it's 12 degrees outside.

Walter, we've been having a virtual indiana summer here in Near Iowa. I got to, I think, 35 degrees today. But the wind was nasty.

243 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:08:09pm

re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well. Uh. Yeah. Damn, you're magical.
You Obama?

Ha, I've been on LGF for more than 4 years. I use to sit here totally smashed. I refuse to go back and even look at any of my archived comments in fear that I will be terribly embarrassed.

244 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:08:13pm

I am honestly sad for the ones who have (in their minds) lifted BHO to Deity status. They are going to be very disappointed.

I've seen and heard what they are expecting. They are not folks who can take disappointment well.

245 itellu3times  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:08:24pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

Do you solemnly swear (or affirm) that you will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of your ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?

Present.

246 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:08:37pm

re: #242 ggt

Walter, we've been having a virtual indiana summer here in Near Iowa. I got to, I think, 35 degrees today. But the wind was nasty.

You better see a doctor, Shouldn;t you be in the mid to high 90's ?

247 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:08:44pm

re: #245 itellu3times

Present.

LOL!

248 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:08:55pm

re: #242 ggt

It has snowed again in Portland. I have nothing good to say about the snow, so I shall say nothing at all.

249 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:04pm

re: #216 ggt

I don't know about that -- it's the greatest mystery of all!

Universal physical laws - you can believe god is ultimately responsible for them, and still accept that they describe everything we observe. But to suggest that god actually interferes in the universe means that those laws do not apply universally and have to be divinely leapfrogged to arrive at what we see - example: 'intelligent design'.

250 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:06pm

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

Ha, I've been on LGF for more than 4 years. I use to sit here totally smashed. I refuse to go back and even look at any of my archived comments in fear that I will be terribly embarrassed.

or that they'll make more sense than these do!

251 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:08pm

re: #240 EmmmieG

Baby turtles at Zooborns!

[Link: zooborns.typepad.com...]

awwww!

Did you see the baby jaguars today? The spots are good camo!

252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:08pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

OT

Damn, it's 12 degrees outside.

The answer is no...

253 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:14pm

re: #239 sattv4u2

why are you outside?

Maisey the Parrot froze on the window sill. I had to chip her off.

254 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:57pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

OT

Damn, it's 12 degrees outside.

Celsius, Farenheit or Kelvin?

255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:09:57pm

re: #246 sattv4u2

You better see a doctor, Shouldn;t you be in the mid to high 90's ?

Well, some say Lizards are cold blooded.

:0

256 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:10:21pm

re: #252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The answer is no...

You won't hug me?

257 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:10:31pm

We dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive.

258 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:10:32pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton
Hey Walter! How are you! And you sound surprised that on Januray 4th it's 12 degrees in Golden, Colorado!
Is it usually colder or warmer at this time of year?!
:)

259 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:10:40pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton

Maisey the Parrot froze on the window sill. I had to chip her off.

why ,, let her stay there ,, that way you know she won;t be flying off somewhere!

260 badger1970  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:10:51pm

re: #189 Spare O'Lake

I guess I should have spelled out /s (arcasim). Emotional arguments are so tiresome. Well, yes, compared to G-d, we come from dirt and dirt we shall return. The breath of life of Adam is well spent. Job went even went as far as to conclude that man cannot even fathom the greatness of G_d let alone question His divine motives.

Now though, He did give us a mind and a soul (though whatever means) to think on that; to love His creations and each other. To know good from bad. To fight evil but pray for the sinner.

Back to the e v. c battle. Proving man came from one of many species of primates is one thing but was the mechanism purely a crap shoot or something planned? I, myself, is currently in the anthropic court.

261 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:10:51pm

re: #254 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Celsius, Farenheit or Kelvin?

(f)

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:11:18pm

re: #256 Walter L. Newton

You won't hug me?

Oh. Sorry. Thought we were doing the "Baby it's cold outside" song.

263 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:11:25pm

re: #217 MrPaulRevere

That's just mean.

264 Dan G.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:11:26pm

re: #254 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Or Rankine?

265 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:11:30pm

re: #251 ggt

awwww!

Did you see the baby jaguars today? The spots are good camo!

I saw the rhinos down the page. The mother looks horny. :)

266 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:13:02pm

re: #258 realwest

Hey Walter! How are you! And you sound surprised that on Januray 4th it's 12 degrees in Golden, Colorado!
Is it usually colder or warmer at this time of year?!
:)

Average in the winter for most nights is in the mid 20's. Yes, 12 degrees is a little cooler than normal. And if it is 12 degrees here in Golden, in the foothills (about 6000 ft), then it's 10-15 degrees cooler up the hill (as we call the Rocky Mountains).

267 itellu3times  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:13:18pm

re: #260 badger1970

I, myself, is currently in the anthropic court.

Wazzat?

268 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:13:26pm

re: #249 Jimmah

Universal physical laws - you can believe god is ultimately responsible for them, and still accept that they describe everything we observe. But to suggest that god actually interferes in the universe means that those laws do not apply universally and have to be divinely leapfrogged to arrive at what we see - example: 'intelligent design'.

That would depend on your concept of G-d, I suppose. I think there is so much involved that our tiny corner of understanding doesn't allow us to see how it can work. We can only explore what we can and "believe" we will gain from it.

Ah, sweet mystery!

269 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:13:34pm

re: #263 MandyManners

Well, lets just say I know the type.

270 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:14:07pm

re: #238 ggt
Hey ggt - well usually on a plate or in a bowl and preferably with Bolognase (sp?) sauce (meat and tomato and garlic and onion, and red wine and basil and garlic and meat and garlic in the sauce)! But I'm flexible - I also like it "Alfredo" - cream sauce with peas and nearly every way that doesn't involve any nuts or mushrooms or fish or clams!
Why?!

271 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:14:59pm

re: #269 MrPaulRevere

Well, lets just say I know the type.

Well, young'uns have spells of trouble.

272 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:15:13pm

Controversies such as whether ID is science or philosophy, whether evolution has serious flaws or not, or whether the scientific consensus on global warming is beginning to crack, should never be determined by court rulings.

A few months ago, I read the cross-examination of Dr. Scott Minnich from the Dover transcripts. Dr. Minnich is an expert on bacterial flagellum, but in my opinion, the opposing lawyer tore him apart using yes-or-no tactics. But this was an exercise in semantics not science, and proved nothing scientific, merely that a good lawyer can yes-no a college professor into a corner. I also believe that the ad hominem attacks against Dr. Behe are unfitting for true scientists.

I do think courts can and should decide whether textbooks used in public schools promotes a religious or political position, and I'm opposed to any indoctrination in textbooks or in classrooms. Despite the media circus, the Dover court did that, protecting students from a lousy textbook.

But, here's the question. Should scientific uncertainties and controversies be mentioned in classrooms or should Science be presented as Definitive and Final? Dr. Eugenie Scott is for the Definitive and Final.

I believe that it is wrong to teach science as a series of incontrovertible "facts" and that this approach misleads, underestimates, and demotivates students. When I was in high school, it was a observed "fact" that Jupiter had 12 moons and Saturn had 10, and it was a "fact" that hydra sometimes suffered from "depression" (yes, that's what the literature said), and that continental drift was a ludicrous idea of Velechovsky's.

Instead, Science should be taught as a logical method of investigation, and that scientific theories are constantly adjusted, sometimes overthrown, as new information or ideas come to light. I believe that this type of honesty excites and challenges students to pursue a scientific education and career, and is a very good thing. But indoctrination in the name of Science is still indoctrination regardless of the source.

-sk

273 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:15:28pm

re: #265 Dark_Falcon

I saw the rhinos down the page. The mother looks horny. :)

groan

274 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:15:57pm

re: #241 jcm Uh, I didn't click your links jcm, on account of I don't care about Pirate appendages and whether or not mine have been touched is none of your beeswax, buster!
:)

275 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:16:06pm

re: #270 realwest

Hey ggt - well usually on a plate or in a bowl and preferably with Bolognase (sp?) sauce (meat and tomato and garlic and onion, and red wine and basil and garlic and meat and garlic in the sauce)! But I'm flexible - I also like it "Alfredo" - cream sauce with peas and nearly every way that doesn't involve any nuts or mushrooms or fish or clams!
Why?!

how much garlic?

276 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:16:07pm

re: #258 realwest

And I just checked the charts for up the hill. Up to 20 degrees BELOW zero in some areas tonight. Yep, that's a little cooler than normal.

277 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:16:19pm

re: #260 badger1970

I'll take that as a "no".
LOL.

278 Desert Dog  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:16:51pm

LGF and Zombie got nice complements over at Michelle Malkin...LGF for the Photoshop Forgeries of the Iranians and Zombie for unearthing the Prairefire crap from Willie Ayers

279 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:17:02pm

re: #245 itellu3times
ROTFL! Great one that I hadn't heard before!

280 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:17:05pm

stretch is from SA by the way

281 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:17:39pm

re: #272 Spar Kling

"But, here's the question. Should scientific uncertainties and controversies be mentioned in classrooms or should Science be presented as Definitive and Final?"

IMHO, presenting science as definitive and final would be bad science.

no?

282 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:18:10pm

re: #280 SpaceJesus

San Antonio?

283 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:18:22pm

re: #249 Jimmah

Universal physical laws - you can believe god is ultimately responsible for them, and still accept that they describe everything we observe. But to suggest that god actually interferes in the universe means that those laws do not apply universally and have to be divinely leapfrogged to arrive at what we see - example: 'intelligent design'.

That is what Spinoza believed. He was excommunicated from Judaism for it. Einstein also believed in a G-d that created the universe but didn't control what happened later, but he wasn't excommunicated.
In Judaism, the belief is G-d does control what occurs, but that does not have to be done by violating physical laws. All He has to do is control how quantum mechanical systems "collapse" into single states.

284 Dianna  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:18:48pm

Goodnight, everyone!

285 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:19:06pm

re: #129 MrPaulRevere

Some footage of a well known creationist bullshitter lying his face off -

Youtube Video
286 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:19:43pm

re: #272 Spar Kling

"Controversies such as whether ID is science or philosophy"
There is no controversy about that. ID is not science.

287 Desert Dog  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:19:54pm

re: #284 Dianna

Goodnight Dianna

288 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:20:02pm

What a damn idiot:

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Sometimes I don't know who I should hate more: Arabs or Jews themselves.

If we end up doing the cease-fire (which with our idiots at helm we will) then at the very least I hope we get back Shalit...

289 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:20:20pm

re: #242 ggt

Walter, we've been having a virtual indiana summer here in Near Iowa. I got to, I think, 35 degrees today. But the wind was nasty.

ggt, I have seen you refer to Near Iowa a number of times. Near to where or is that classified information?

290 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:20:30pm

re: #272 Spar Kling


But, here's the question. Should scientific uncertainties and controversies be mentioned in classrooms or should Science be presented as Definitive and Final? Dr. Eugenie Scott is for the Definitive and Final.

-sk

Should scientific uncertainties and controversies be mentioned in classrooms ....

Yes.

Creationism / ID is faith not science. If taught at all it's place is comparative religion.

....should Science be presented as Definitive and Final?

Wrong question. Science is seldom Definitive and Final, it under constant scrutiny, review, revision, refinement. Science at it current best understand is what should be taught along with rigorous training in the scientific method and critical thinking. Science are taught, properly to always be skeptics.

291 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:20:30pm

re: #251 ggt
Hey, baby jaguars are cool - but once they reach adulthood, they are the third largest cat in the cat family (not including Ligers), are the only big cat that likes to swim and are the only big cat that will kill just cause it feels like it, not because it's hungry -so pet 'em now or get a marguay for a pet (a tad smaller than an ocelot, same coloring and as fun as housecats!).

292 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:20:42pm

re: #284 Dianna

Goodnight, everyone!

Goodnight!

293 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:21:19pm

re: #274 realwest

Uh, I didn't click your links jcm, on account of I don't care about Pirate appendages and whether or not mine have been touched is none of your beeswax, buster!
:)

ROFLMAO!

Got 5 almost 6 inches of new snow at my place in the last 3 and half hours.

294 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:21:37pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton
Uh, "Maisey the Parrot froze on the window sill. I had to chip her off."
I thought you had quit drinking?!

295 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:22:24pm

re: #272 Spar Kling

"Spar Kling" is a dishonest creationist who has been posting one lie after another in these threads. He claimed that his opinions are more valuable than others' because he has a "scientific degree" -- then refused to say what field that degree was in. He claimed to know of numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers supporting "intelligent design," then couldn't supply even one link to prove his claim.

He's the very model of a dishonest creationist.

296 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:22:37pm

re: #288 traderjoe9

What a damn idiot:

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Sometimes I don't know who I should hate more: Arabs or Jews themselves.

If we end up doing the cease-fire (which with our idiots at helm we will) then at the very least I hope we get back Shalit...

I'm sure Syria, Iran, Jakarta and a few other countries would love to put an international force into Gaza.

297 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:22:48pm

re: #291 realwest

Hey, baby jaguars are cool - but once they reach adulthood, they are the third largest cat in the cat family (not including Ligers), are the only big cat that likes to swim and are the only big cat that will kill just cause it feels like it, not because it's hungry -so pet 'em now or get a marguay for a pet (a tad smaller than an ocelot, same coloring and as fun as housecats!).

If housecats were bigger, they'd be dangerous to us.

Good night, lizards.

298 itellu3times  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:22:52pm

re: #279 realwest

ROTFL! Great one that I hadn't heard before!

You'll soon hear it again!

(actually, I believe he is expected to recite it in the first person, "I", ... but maybe he'll write his own vows)

299 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:22:56pm

Just something I thought I'd share.

Youtube Video
300 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:23:09pm

re: #294 realwest

Uh, "Maisey the Parrot froze on the window sill. I had to chip her off."
I thought you had quit drinking?!

It's a cover. It was actually Walter who froze to the windowsill and Maisy the Parrott had to chip HIM off!

301 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:23:29pm

re: #295 Charles

He's the very model of a dishonest creationist.

Cue Buzzsaw!

302 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:00pm

re: #295 Charles

You realize I now have an image of a bunch of these guys on a stage, singing Gilbert & Sullivan, with dragon-dinosaurs and the pastafarian monster overhead.

Would be funny, actually, in a very Monty Python kind of way.

303 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:06pm

re: #289 freedombilly

ggt, I have seen you refer to Near Iowa a number of times. Near to where or is that classified information?

Well, actually, it is the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland, but I get too tired late at night to type all that.

304 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:15pm

re: #280 SpaceJesus

stretch is from SA by the way

Buddies?

305 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:23pm

re: #266 Walter L. Newton
Huh. I always thought it was like 10 degrees or something in all of Colorado (except in the Rockies) at this time of year.
Live and learn something new out here all the time!

306 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:42pm

re: #284 Dianna

Sweet dreams!

307 Archimedes  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:50pm

Kodachrome, Paul Simon:

Youtube Video


I dig my camera!

308 itellu3times  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:24:55pm

re: #286 jaunte

"Controversies such as whether ID is science or philosophy"
There is no controversy about that. ID is not science.

Well it sure as heck ain't philosophy.

It might qualify as science-fiction, if it were only half-way credible.

I think the best label is probably "pathology".

309 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:25:15pm

re: #296 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm sure Syria, Iran, Jakarta and a few other countries would love to put an international force into Gaza.

Yup.

The whole international monitors part of the deal is complete crap too. The last time the EU controlled the Rafah crossing they payed absolutely no attention to the fact that top Hamas leaders were actually crossing and transporting large sums of money across the border, among other things. Then when Hamas took over they fled like the wussies they are.

310 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:25:21pm

re: #291 realwest

Hey, baby jaguars are cool - but once they reach adulthood, they are the third largest cat in the cat family (not including Ligers), are the only big cat that likes to swim and are the only big cat that will kill just cause it feels like it, not because it's hungry -so pet 'em now or get a marguay for a pet (a tad smaller than an ocelot, same coloring and as fun as housecats!).

eh, I'll stick with common barn cats.

311 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:25:32pm

re: #295 Charles

"Spar Kling" is a dishonest creationist who has been posting one lie after another in these threads. He claimed that his opinions are more valuable than others' because he has a "scientific degree" -- then refused to say what field that degree was in. He claimed to know of numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers supporting "intelligent design," then couldn't supply even one link to prove his claim.

He's the very model of a dishonest creationist.

Shame on him.

312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:25:57pm

Walter? Wouldn't you love to live in Virginia, where at least the mountains are as old as you?

313 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:26:15pm

re: #275 ggt Oh, well now that you mention it, I like a lot of garlic - and LOVE garlic bread served with the pasta!
Damn, I'm getting hungry here!

314 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:26:25pm

re: #303 ggt

Well, actually, it is the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland, but I get too tired late at night to type all that.

That is a bit of a mouth full. Near Iowa is the same number of syllables as just Chicagoland after all. Not sure why I was nosy but now I know and knowing is half of the battle!

315 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:26:27pm

re: #297 Kosh's Shadow

If housecats were bigger, they'd be dangerous to us.

Good night, lizards.

they are dangerous enough as they are.

:)

316 Winslow  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:26:30pm

Blog Damage
(with apologies to Pink Floyd)

The lunatics are here, alas.
The lunatics are here, alas.
Rehashing lines from ID threads long past;
Got to read the loony posts and laugh.

The lunatics have heard the call.
The lunatics have heard the call.
This topic brings the lurking loonies to the fore,
And every registration day brings more.

And if it seems as though you’ve heard it all before,
And if they just keep crawling through the door,
And if they always sing the same old loony tunes,
The blog is overrun with young-earth loons.

The lunatics are on the thread.
The lunatics are on the thread.
Young-earth creationists, like trolls, should not be fed;
Got to keep the loonies off the thread.
Sit back and GAZE, for they are crazy in the head;
Mustn’t let the loons derail the thread.

And if their talking points ring hollow in your ear,
And when you answer, they don’t seem to hear,
Well then, it’s clear that you’re debating young-earth loons;
You may as well be talking to the moon.

317 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:26:56pm

re: #272 Spar Kling

Here we go again. No one said anything should be presented as final. Just that this theory fits the facts and others do not.

318 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:27:23pm

re: #305 realwest

Huh. I always thought it was like 10 degrees or something in all of Colorado (except in the Rockies) at this time of year.
Live and learn something new out here all the time!

Hell no. Pueblo Colorado and Denver have as much in common (weather wise) as San Diego and San Francisco

319 itellu3times  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:27:23pm

re: #272 Spar Kling

When I was in school, the fools thought there were nine planets.

320 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:28:00pm

re: #312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? Wouldn't you love to live in Virginia, where at least the mountains are as old as you?

I used to live in Virginia and recently moved to the People's Republic of Maryland! Oh how I long to have my vote count again! Needless to say The Messiah won my district in a landslide.

321 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:28:07pm

re: #313 realwest

Oh, well now that you mention it, I like a lot of garlic - and LOVE garlic bread served with the pasta!
Damn, I'm getting hungry here!

Ok, just wanted to make sure, about the amount of garlic. You're one of the good ones!

322 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:28:57pm

re: #314 freedombilly

That is a bit of a mouth full. Near Iowa is the same number of syllables as just Chicagoland after all. Not sure why I was nosy but now I know and knowing is half of the battle!

all is good!

323 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:29:31pm

re: #312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? Wouldn't you love to live in Virginia, where at least the mountains are as old as you?

No I wouldn't. The only thing I like about Virginia is the fact that you can't walk 3 feet without tripping over civil war history (which use to be a major interest of mine). And I have been all over the state visiting, especially up and down the S. Valley.

But no, too damn humid. I lived up east and then in the south until 1989, and then I moved up here and I there is no place else I would like to be, unless it was cooler and dryer than Colorado.

324 Archimedes  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:30:10pm

re: #319 itellu3times

When I was in school, the fools thought there were nine planets.

Is that the German use of the word "nine"?

325 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:30:20pm

re: #278 Desert Dog
Indeed they did - and well deserved props, too! Thanks for the comment and the link!

326 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:30:39pm

re: #323 Walter L. Newton

No I wouldn't. The only thing I like about Virginia is the fact that you can't walk 3 feet without tripping over civil war history (which use to be a major interest of mine). And I have been all over the state visiting, especially up and down the S. Valley.

But no, too damn humid. I lived up east and then in the south until 1989, and then I moved up here and I there is no place else I would like to be, unless it was cooler and dryer than Colorado.

Antarctica, very dry... very cool all year round.
;-P

327 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:30:43pm

re: #323 Walter L. Newton

No I wouldn't. The only thing I like about Virginia is the fact that you can't walk 3 feet without tripping over civil war history (which use to be a major interest of mine). And I have been all over the state visiting, especially up and down the S. Valley.

But no, too damn humid. I lived up east and then in the south until 1989, and then I moved up here and I there is no place else I would like to be, unless it was cooler and dryer than Colorado.

i cant' stand the dryness in CO. I buy a cheap humidifier and leave it in the hotel when I leave, I hate it so much.

328 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:31:03pm

re: #295 Charles

"Spar Kling" is a dishonest creationist who has been posting one lie after another in these threads. He claimed that his opinions are more valuable than others' because he has a "scientific degree" -- then refused to say what field that degree was in. He claimed to know of numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers supporting "intelligent design," then couldn't supply even one link to prove his claim.

He's the very model of a dishonest creationist.

"I am the very model of a dishonest creationist,
I know that God created all animals and minerals.
If you try to debate me I will spew out my talking points,
exactly in the same way as a liberal Democrat!

Exactly in the same way as a liberal Democrat,
Exactly in same way as a liberal Democrat!"

329 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:31:26pm

It has been a bad football weekend for me. I picked Indy (lost), Baltimore (won), Vikings (lost, but happy because of Al Franken and sad because I hate the Eagles) and Atlanta (lost).

I'm going to go to bed now and lick my wounds.

G'night folks!

330 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:31:47pm

re: #326 jcm

Antarctica, very dry... very cool all year round.
;-P

I had a friend that worked on the ice. I would love it. But then again, I would love to be a hermit, or work in a fire lookout tower, or a lighthouse.

331 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:32:15pm

re: #286 jaunte
"There is no controversy about that. ID is not science."
Amen!
;')

332 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:32:34pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon

Don't forget the kick line.

333 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:33:13pm

Good night!

334 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:33:17pm

re: #332 EmmmieG

Don't forget the kick line.

Jazz hands.

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:33:34pm

re: #334 Walter L. Newton

Jazz hands.

Spirit Fingers!

336 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:33:36pm

re: #330 Walter L. Newton

I had a friend that worked on the ice. I would love it. But then again, I would love to be a hermit, or work in a fire lookout tower, or a lighthouse.

a real people person, ain't ya !

337 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:34:05pm

re: #332 EmmmieG

Don't forget the kick line.

I'll kick him if he comes back. :)

338 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:34:29pm

re: #330 Walter L. Newton

I had a friend that worked on the ice. I would love it. But then again, I would love to be a hermit, or work in a fire lookout tower, or a lighthouse.

When I was a kid 5 or so my uncle worked Peck Mountain for a couple of summers. That would be great stuff.

339 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:35:43pm

re: #283 Kosh's Shadow

That is what Spinoza believed. He was excommunicated from Judaism for it. Einstein also believed in a G-d that created the universe but didn't control what happened later, but he wasn't excommunicated.

I don't have a belief in god, especially not any of those yet described, but wouldn't deny altogether the possibility of something that could have me in some metaphorical sense groping for that word, so I'm ok with the idea of Spinoza and Einsteins non-personal 'god the universe'.

All He has to do is control how quantum mechanical systems "collapse" into single states.

That's a LOT of very repetitive and not very interesting work. Personally, I reckon a god would have figured out a way to get that stuff running on it's own!

340 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:35:47pm

re: #333 MandyManners

Good night!

Night Mandy!

341 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:36:09pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

a real people person, ain't ya !

Ha, we had a private rental last night at the theatre (we are between theatre shows), a concert, not one of our regular concerts, so, we decided to check ID's before they even got to the box office.

I got to check ID's. No, I'm not a people person, not in the public relations sense. It's better to keep me behind the scenes.

342 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:36:10pm

G'nite Gracie

343 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:36:53pm

re: #339 Jimmah

I have a feeling that the Master of Universes is not a plate-spinner.

344 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:38:16pm

re: #339 Jimmah

That's a LOT of very repetitive and not very interesting work. Personally, I reckon a god would have figured out a way to get that stuff running on it's own!

You know, you are allowed to believe in your own concept of G-d. You don't have to accept anyone else's definition.

345 lostlakehiker  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:38:18pm

re: #319 itellu3times

When I was in school, the fools thought there were nine planets.

It all depends what you mean by the word "planet". It used to mean "anything round that goes around the sun and not around something else, and is bigger than Ceres. By that standard, there were at least nine.

As to evolution, ID is mindless prattle and lies and ill befits Christians, who with remarkably good grace and judgment, give it a pass for the most part.

346 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:39:38pm

re: #344 ggt

You know, you are allowed to believe in your own concept of G-d. You don't have to accept anyone else's definition.

I should add that it isn't a good thing to believe in a G-d that thinks you should blow-yourself up in his name. IMHO, that would be a false god.

347 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:39:52pm

re: #339 Jimmah

That's a LOT of very repetitive and not very interesting work. Personally, I reckon a god would have figured out a way to get that stuff running on it's own!

That's one idea. G-d built the "watch" then wound it up and let it run.

348 freetoken  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:40:04pm

re: #343 jaunte

I have a feeling that the Master of Universes is not a plate-spinner.

Like this guy?

Youtube Video
349 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:40:35pm

re: #345 lostlakehiker

It all depends what you mean by the word "planet". It used to mean "anything round that goes around the sun and not around something else, and is bigger than Ceres. By that standard, there were at least nine.

As to evolution, ID is mindless prattle and lies and ill befits Christians, who with remarkably good grace and judgment, give it a pass for the most part.

I still feel sad for Pluto. Being demoted like that, downsizing and outsourcing can suck.

350 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:40:44pm

For those who have not seen these cams, some interesting stuff going on at the collider in France/Switzerland

[Link: www.cyriak.co.uk...]

351 itellu3times  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:40:52pm

re: #324 Archimedes

Is that the German use of the word "nine"?

Acht, nein.

352 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:42:04pm

re: #288 traderjoe9
Geebus - first sentence from your link:

The United States has launched an international effort, which includes Israel, Egypt and the Palestinians, to formulate a ceasefire agreement that would neutralize Hamas' influence in the region, diplomatic sources in Jerusalem reported Sunday night.

[emphasis added realwest].
Aside from the fact that the "Palestinian People" are only an international construct to describe the Jordegptians, how the fuck can there be a cease fire with them?! What, are we now to believe that Fatah is more peaceful than Hamas? That Hamas will go quietly into the night?
Absolute utter bullshit. Hamas charter - oft repeatedly with fondnss by Hamas leaders and "fighters" is to destroy the state of Israel and kill all Israelis. That they were elected into power by the "Palestinian People" says a great deal more about the Palestinian People than it does about the probablility of success of including them in any way, shape or form in any ceasefire agreement.
Israel simply must destroy Hamas' leaders, fighters, and enablers. Period.

353 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:42:10pm

re: #349 ggt

I still feel sad for Pluto. Being demoted like that, downsizing and outsourcing can suck.

Not only that , but he was a MOUSES pet ,, how demeaning is that !?!?!?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

354 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:43:13pm

re: #272 Spar Kling

and it was a "fact" that hydra sometimes suffered from "depression" (yes, that's what the literature said)

Please, do expand on this for us, spar kling.

355 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:44:23pm

re: #343 jaunte

I have a feeling that the Master of Universes is not a plate-spinner.

Heh - nicely put.

356 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:48:32pm

re: #293 jcm
Does that mean maybe you don't have to go to work tomorrow?!

357 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:50:14pm

re: #300 sattv4u2
Ah hah! I knew something was wrong with that!

358 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:51:47pm

re: #356 realwest

Does that mean maybe you don't have to go to work tomorrow?!

I've got kinda used to being off. Last 2 weeks we shut down. We've been cold for 3 week or so, this is a warm moist front moving in. Starts out as snow, and quickly turns to rain. We'll see how quickly, if it's not rain by morning the commute's gonna' be a nightmare.

359 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:52:45pm

re: #310 ggt
Well it's your choice, but they aren't as cute as a margay!
And not as big, either!

360 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:54:14pm

re: #358 jcm

Lights are flickering. Heavy wet snow is bending tree branches into power lines. My lose power at any time. Means I can go to bed instead of clean up the kitchen, social worker visiting one of the kids tomorrow.

361 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:54:55pm

re: #318 sattv4u2
Now wait a minute - I've heard for decades that San Diego has about the perfect climate you could wish for. I've been to Colorado - Denver and points south and north and it ain't no San Diego!

362 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:55:57pm

re: #354 Jimmah

Please, do expand on this for us, spar kling.

He won't. He only posted to put in his talking points. It was a hit and run troll attack.

363 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:56:00pm

re: #354 Jimmah

Please, do expand on this for us, spar kling.

He drop his bomb and ran off.
Or maybe he's a blog version of a spoldeydope.

364 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:56:24pm

re: #321 ggt
Why thank you ggt! But I always thought I was one of the good ones to you, even before you knew I loved garlic!
BTW, have y'all ever had roasted garlic?! YUM!

365 Kragar  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:56:47pm

re: #363 jcm

He drop his bomb and ran off.
Or maybe he's a blog version of a spoldeydope.

little bit of splodey, whole lot of dope

366 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:57:01pm

re: #362 Dark_Falcon

He won't. He only posted to put in his talking points. It was a hit and run troll attack.

An I.E.T.?

367 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:57:54pm

re: #366 freedombilly

An I.E.T.?

I.E.T.?

368 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:58:27pm

re: #367 Dark_Falcon

I.E.T.?

Sorry.....Improvised Explosive Troll

369 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:58:37pm

re: #323 Walter L. Newton
Is it more the drier or the cooler or just both? Cause I've lived in very hot, humid weather and very cold humid weather and very hot DRY weather and I really prefer the hot dry weather myself (as do my aching joints and bones).

370 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:59:27pm

re: #361 realwest

Now wait a minute - I've heard for decades that San Diego has about the perfect climate you could wish for. I've been to Colorado - Denver and points south and north and it ain't no San Diego!

I was making a comparison. You stated you thought all of Colo was about the same (excluding the highest elevations)
I stated just like the difference between San Diego and San Francisco, so is the difference between Pueblo Colorado and Denver

371 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 9:59:38pm

re: #329 Fat Bastard Vegetarian Goodnight FBV - hey - if you're still around, who do you like, Eagles or Giants?!

372 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:02:05pm

re: #369 realwest

Is it more the drier or the cooler or just both? Cause I've lived in very hot, humid weather and very cold humid weather and very hot DRY weather and I really prefer the hot dry weather myself (as do my aching joints and bones).

but you never inhaled, right !?!?

373 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:02:53pm

re: #368 freedombilly

Sorry.....Improvised Explosive Troll

No, not so much. An IET is one who posted something inflammatory and then gets banned. Spar King and Stretch are more like snipers: They fire off their talking points and then clear out when the return fire of logic gets too hot for them. They don't really do much damage, they just distract and delay us. But they also don't break the rules and do something that would cause Charles to show them the door.

374 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:03:07pm

re: #372 sattv4u2

but you never inhaled, right !?!?

I hope not. I've nominated him for Supreme Court. That would hinder his confirmation.

375 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:03:18pm

re: #363 jcm

I did a google search on depression + hydra -

[Link: www.biolbull.org...]

2. The phenomenon of depression, in which there is a shortening and gradual loss of tentacles and column from the distal end proximally, is of common occurrence in hydras and probably represents a lowered metabolic state. It is induced by rich feeding, high temperature, sensescence, fouling of the culture water, lack of oxygen, transfer to clean fresh water. Recovery may be spontaneous or may by induced.

'Depression' here is being used in the sense of a physiological state of the organism. Is this what the 'scientist' Spar Kling has his knickers in a twist over? No wonder he's legged it.

376 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:03:45pm

re: #371 realwest

Goodnight FBV - hey - if you're still around, who do you like, Eagles or Giants?!

Giants, though the Eagles did fairly well today.

377 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:03:51pm

re: #295 Charles

"Spar Kling" is a dishonest creationist who has been posting one lie after another in these threads. He claimed that his opinions are more valuable than others' because he has a "scientific degree" -- then
refused to say what field that degree was in. He claimed to know of
numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers supporting "intelligent
design," then couldn't supply even one link to prove his claim.

He's the very model of a dishonest creationist.

We've been through this, Charles, and it's not true. I've never claimed that my opinions are more valuable that those of others. My degree is in a scientific area, but I've chosen not to go into detail to maintain my privacy.

What I originally claimed was that the peer review process, while necessary, is flawed--much of the following information was actually published in Nature, hardly a creationist rag:

------------
re: #595 jaunte

Can you point us to any of the papers you think have been undeservedly excluded from broad scientific scrutiny?

Well, if you insist, here are a couple:

Nature rejected paper on the weak interaction theory by Enrico Fermi
Nature rejected paper on Cerenkov Radiation by Pavel Cerenkov
Nature rejected paper on photosynthesis by Johan Deisenhofer, et al
Nature initially rejected paper on black hole radiation by Stephen Hawking

Oh, and for some reason Watson and Crick never submitted their landmark paper on DNA to peer review. Go figure.

Please understand that I'm not against peer review, but it's very well understood in the scientific community that the peer review process, while filtering out a great deal of baloney, is also subject to a great deal of prejudice. Just ask several college professors and please let us know if I'm wrong.

Oh yeah, and Ewen and Pusztai's paper on the effects of feeding genetically modified potatoes to rats? All six of the Royal Society's reviewers judged it flawed, while five out of six reviewers for The Lancet gave it favorable reviews.
--------------

In response to demands that I reference an ID paper, I posted this:

In August 2004, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer's paper titled, "The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories," was published in the Biological Society of Washington (volume 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239). The Proceedings is a peer-reviewed biology journal published at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C. Dr. Meyer is affiliated with the Discovery Institute, regularly vilified by the Darwinist scientific community and elsewhere including some well-known blogs.

I know that you violently disagree with my skepticism about evolution. This does not make me all the things you regularly call me.

-sk

378 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:04:08pm

re: #374 freedombilly

I hope not. I've nominated him for Supreme Court. That would hinder his confirmation.

bet it won't hurt Bills when The One taps him for it !

379 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:05:04pm

re: #350 Walter L. Newton
Secpmd cam seems tp indicate a lot of interesting stuff going IN as well!

380 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:06:33pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

No, not so much. An IET is one who posted something inflammatory and then gets banned. Spar King and Stretch are more like snipers: They fire off their talking points and then clear out when the return fire of logic gets too hot for them. They don't really do much damage, they just distract and delay us. But they also don't break the rules and do something that would cause Charles to show them the door.

I absolutely love the term "return fire of logic". I may use that in the future with your permission.

Speaking of logic, I wish there was a way that I could automatically upding each comment posted by Salamantis on every ID thread whether I was logged on or not. He and I see eye to eye with one major difference: he's articulate.

381 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:06:45pm

re: #377 Spar Kling

GAZE

382 swamprat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:07:59pm

re: #377 Spar Kling

Best answer about scientific degree is; TOP SECRET!

Go ahead and bring hitler into the mix. It is late and I need to go to bed.

383 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:08:31pm

re: #360 jcm Jeez, y'all have had it realy rough so far this winter. I sure hope you don't lose power my friend. Please stay safe!
BTW, what are the odds of the socialworker actually making it to your house?

384 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:08:41pm

re: #380 freedombilly

I absolutely love the term "return fire of logic". I may use that in the future with your permission.

Speaking of logic, I wish there was a way that I could automatically upding each comment posted by Salamantis on every ID thread whether I was logged on or not. He and I see eye to eye with one major difference: he's articulate.

You have my permission. I'm glad you liked it. I also feel the same as you do when it comes to Salamantis and evolution.

385 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:08:48pm

re: #377 Spar Kling

The original conversation in which your statement about "papers unfairly excluded from peer review" first came up was a conversation about Intelligent Design papers, not about general scientific subjects that were at first not accepted by other scientists. I asked for examples.
At the time, you tried to shift the argument to the flaws of peer review.

You know this, and still you persist. This is why you get named.

386 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:09:46pm

re: #354 Jimmah
Oh, no - please do NOT expand on this. In fact please leave the subject alone.

387 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:10:35pm

re: #380 freedombilly

The only other thing I would ask is that you upding the post if I wrote a good one. Not criticizing, just asking.

388 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:10:59pm

re: #368 freedombilly
ROTFL! Good one!

389 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:12:18pm

re: #377 Spar Kling

I know that you violently disagree with my skepticism about evolution. This does not make me all the things you regularly call me.

-sk

Bachelor of Science, Bio-Chemistry, University of Washington.

I point out in #290 you have a flawed understanding of basic scientific processes.

Just telling us what field your degree is in won't damage your privacy. Failure to respond, to many direct queries and backing up your assertions does damage your credibility.

390 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:13:01pm

re: #383 realwest

Jeez, y'all have had it realy rough so far this winter. I sure hope you don't lose power my friend. Please stay safe!
BTW, what are the odds of the socialworker actually making it to your house?

If the weather guessers are correct pretty good by tomorrow it'll be rain and mid 40's.

391 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:13:35pm

re: #387 Dark_Falcon

The only other thing I would ask is that you upding the post if I wrote a good one. Not criticizing, just asking.

Now done. I updinged 384 originally and not 373 which was what got me excited in the first place. 1:00 am=sleepy.

392 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:13:56pm

re: #370 sattv4u2
"I stated just like the difference between San Diego and San Francisco, so is the difference between Pueblo Colorado and Denver" um, what? San Francisco is cold (indeed the famed writer Dashiel Hammett once wrote that the coldest day he'd ever spent was a summer day in San Francisco) but it's still no where near as cold as Denver?
Ah, the hell with it.
I get your point.

393 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:14:51pm

re: #372 sattv4u2
I most certainly did! Whatever gave you that fool notion?!
:)

394 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:15:41pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon
Uh, who is "Stretch"?!

395 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:17:00pm

re: #394 realwest

Uh, who is "Stretch"?!

ID troll up thread.

396 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:17:01pm

re: #394 realwest

Uh, who is "Stretch"?!

look under "BOTTOM COMMENTS". At one point, "stretch" had something to the order of 7 out of the bottom 10

397 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:17:03pm

I have to sleep Lizards!

weet dreams!

398 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:17:14pm

re: #374 freedombilly
Not if it couldn't be proved! And as I said, I do look fabulous in black - I'll dazzle 'em with my looks!

399 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:17:23pm

re: #394 realwest

Stretch was one of the I.D. trolls that posted earlier in the thread. Dropped his turd in the punch bowl and then left.

Good morning realwest. Hope things have been good for you this weekend.

400 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:17:37pm

re: #397 ggt

I have to sleep Lizards!

weet dreams!

Goodnight ggt.

401 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:18:21pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon
Ah, then why the Giants? (I agree with you, btw).

402 jaunte  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:18:36pm

Goodnight ggt. I'm off too. G'night all.

403 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:19:24pm

re: #386 realwest

Read 375 and you'll see that there's not much chance of spar kling expanding on that subject, so don't worry.

404 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:19:38pm

re: #394 realwest

Uh, who is "Stretch"?!


He's the jerk who posted this little piece of wit:

re: #103 stretch

fine, show one experiment that produces life, or one that shows a species changing into another species, and I'll concede

And then dropped away without answering questions posed to him by the group.

BTW: Sniper trolls are the hardest type of troll to catch, but I hear that their gamey buttocks cook the best when flamed and they have the best flavor.

405 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:19:59pm

re: #396 sattv4u2

look under "BOTTOM COMMENTS". At one point, "stretch" had something to the order of 7 out of the bottom 10

Karma: -727
stretch
(Logged in)
Registered since: Mar 13, 2008 at 7:18 pm
No. of comments posted: 144
No. of links posted: 0

406 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:20:49pm

re: #405 jcm

No. of comments posted: 144

Karma: -727

Prolific !

407 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:21:15pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

And then dropped away without answering questions posed to him by the group.

BTW: Sniper trolls are the hardest type of troll to catch, but I hear that their gamey buttocks cook the best when flamed and they have the best flavor.

Troll jerky anyone?

408 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:21:19pm

re: #379 realwest
FUTZ! Second cam.
NB - if touch typing, start with fingers on the correct keys.

409 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:21:49pm

re: #406 sattv4u2

No. of comments posted: 144

Karma: -727

Prolific !

You almost have to tip your cap to -727! Wow.

410 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:21:59pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

Asking them the right questions is the best way to get rid of them in my experience.

411 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:22:08pm

re: #409 freedombilly

You almost have to tip your cap to -727! Wow.

he's an overachiever!

412 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:22:25pm

re: #401 realwest

Ah, then why the Giants? (I agree with you, btw).

They are a very solid team with a quarterback who as just come into his own in the last couple years. They took time getting to be a superior team and I admire a team that steadily climbs the mountain and reaches the top.

413 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:23:30pm

re: #407 freedombilly

Troll jerky anyone?

I'll have some. I goes very well with Sharp Cheddar, I've found.

414 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:24:15pm

re: #396 sattv4u2
Thank you!

415 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:24:30pm

re: #406 sattv4u2

No. of comments posted: 144

Karma: -727

Prolific !

That's an average of a little more than 5 down dings per comment. If only our government were that efficient.

416 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:25:20pm

re: #397 ggt
Good night ggt - weet dreams to you, too. Wish you'd gotten around to answering my question of do you like roasted garlic, though!

417 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:26:31pm

re: #413 Dark_Falcon

I'll have some. I goes very well with Sharp Cheddar, I've found.

Being from Boston originally, sharp cheddar is very fun for me to say.

418 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:27:39pm

re: #415 freedombilly

That's an average of a little more than 5 down dings per comment. If only our government were that efficient.

A consist average for most lizards is 1 up ding every two comments. Sharm is an exception, and average of up 2 for every comment.

419 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:29:08pm

re: #399 BlueCanuck
Hey Blue! Yes, I've had a very good weekend actually.
Rough week ahead, but this was indeed a good weekend.
How've you been doing?

420 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:29:41pm

re: #402 jaunte
Good night juante - sleep well!

421 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:30:26pm

re: #395 jcm

ID troll up thread.

not following that - and I havn't visited the DI site yet, but from what all I read hear, they must be doing some interesting work

422 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:31:39pm

re: #417 freedombilly

Being from Boston originally, sharp cheddar is very fun for me to say.

Yes, I can understand that. I pick up my affection for it as a byproduct of my father purchasing his wine at a shop called The Chalet when I was younger, a chain wine and cheese store that has since folded. I picked up love for Herkimer(?) Cheddar there than has never left me. Ever since, I have been a lover of good Sharp Chedddars.

423 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:31:45pm

re: #386 realwest

Oh, no - please do NOT expand on this. In fact please leave the subject alone.

Just asking for clarification realwest - was that comment directed at me, or spar kling?

424 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:32:02pm

re: #421 stretch

not following that - and I havn't visited the DI site yet, but from what all I read hear, they must be doing some interesting work

GAZE

425 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:32:24pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

And then dropped away without answering questions posed to him by the group.

BTW: Sniper trolls are the hardest type of troll to catch, but I hear that their gamey buttocks cook the best when flamed and they have the best flavor.

i left to watch a movie with my wife (the "notebook" - quite good). So what experiment was it that showed creatures changing from one species into another. They must be all over the net by now with all this research, I just can't seem to find one.

426 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:33:41pm

re: #405 jcm

Karma: -727
stretch
(Logged in)
Registered since: Mar 13, 2008 at 7:18 pm
No. of comments posted: 144
No. of links posted: 0

stats are wrong - i had posted links on Ota Benga, the African Pygmy put on display at a zoo by evolutionuts

427 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:34:06pm

Well folks, foxnews just breaking news that Al Franken has "won" the senate race against Norm Coleman. It's "official".

428 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:34:10pm

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

GAZE


what does "GAZE" mean?

429 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:34:14pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon
Oh fer cryin' out loud.

Karma: -731
Registered since: Mar 13, 2008 at 7:18 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 145
and, of course, no links.

I know it's fun to play with all sorts of trolls but ya know with some like Stretch it really is better to GAZE, IMO!

430 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:35:50pm

re: #427 pink freud

Well folks, foxnews just breaking news that Al Franken has "won" the senate race against Norm Coleman. It's "official".

Puke. Spit. Barf.

431 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:36:19pm

re: #417 freedombilly

Being from Boston originally, sharp cheddar is very fun for me to say.

where in Boston/ I was born and raised in Everett and lived in the North End, trhe Back Bay, Savin Hill

432 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:36:50pm

re: #430 freedombilly

Puke. Spit. Barf.

It sickens me.

433 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:37:13pm

re: #428 stretch

what does "GAZE" mean?

You have an LGF dictionary. Use it.

434 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:37:17pm

re: #428 stretch

what does "GAZE" mean?

GAZE - To glare with silent disapproval at a troll who has intentionally attempted to derail a topic. A sign of non-acknowledgment of a particularly offensive or inflammatory post, and a sign to other commenters not to "feed the troll" (pay attention to a disruptive commenter). Usually written all capitals.
[First documented use: 'davesax' in this thread: The LGF Prayer]

Link

435 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:37:21pm

re: #412 Dark_Falcon
OK, I agree with that.
BTW, did you know that when the Giants won the last Super Bowl, they were the THIRD YOUNGEST team in the NFL?
I think the Eagles have a very slim chance and expect the Giants to win BIG (barring the usualy suspects: injuries, turnovers and shitty officiating, that is!).

436 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:38:10pm

re: #426 stretch

Question for you back at: #140

437 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:38:15pm

re: #427 pink freud

Well folks, foxnews just breaking news that Al Franken has "won" the senate race against Norm Coleman. It's "official".

Fuck Al Franken and the fucking horse he rode in on.......
Harumph.......

438 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:38:38pm

re: #415 freedombilly
ROTFLMAO! Even when you're tired you're funny as hell!
Too bad in this instance you're correct, too!

439 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:39:29pm

re: #431 sattv4u2

where in Boston/ I was born and raised in Everett and lived in the North End, trhe Back Bay, Savin Hill

440 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:39:39pm

re: #434 Dark_Falcon

GAZE - To glare with silent disapproval at a troll who has intentionally attempted to derail a topic. A sign of non-acknowledgment of a particularly offensive or inflammatory post, and a sign to other commenters not to "feed the troll" (pay attention to a disruptive commenter). Usually written all capitals.
[First documented use: 'davesax' in this thread: The LGF Prayer]

Link

okay - though i'm sticking with topic, and does the "particularly offensive" part include dismissing claims by evolutionists?

441 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:40:00pm
442 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:40:10pm

re: #418 jcm Say, let's not discuss the number of updings per comment,OK?

443 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:40:21pm

re: #438 realwest

ROTFLMAO! Even when you're tired you're funny as hell!
Too bad in this instance you're correct, too!

Thanks rw.

444 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:41:35pm

Hey realwest. Had a good weekend. Spent a whole day with my mom scanning and documenting historic family pictures. Unfortunately we only got through less then a hundred of them. It's going to take a lot longer then I thought it would. Now back at work and slogging away.

445 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:41:39pm

re: #423 Jimmah
spar kling, of course!

446 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:41:48pm

re: #427 pink freud

Well folks, foxnews just breaking news that Al Franken has "won" the senate race against Norm Coleman. It's "official".

I am taking a White Out Pen and filling in Minnesota.

There, now there's just a big white blob next to North/ South Dakota. looks like a frozen tundra leading to the Canadian border!

447 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:41:49pm

re: #435 realwest

I think the Eagles have a very slim chance and expect the Giants to win BIG (barring the usualy suspects: injuries, turnovers and shitty officiating, that is!).

/gee, it seems like only a month ago . . .

448 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:41:57pm

re: #442 realwest

Say, let's not discuss the number of updings per comment,OK?

Sorry, I'd give you 10 up dings for everything. But then I'm not much of a dinger, I'll ding something really good, or really bad.

449 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:42:47pm

re: #439 freedombilly

thats what I said !

450 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:43:01pm

re: #436 jcm

Question for you back at: #140


Question for you.

I take it you believe in the Creator.
which one are you refering too?
Do you believe in his Creation?
not following you; do you mean like if we are really here or not?
Do you believe what His Creation tells us?
what is His Creation telling us specifically?
So it should like you would say yes to 1&2 but no to 3.
Why would you discount what God's own creation tells us?
you lost me

451 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:43:14pm
452 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:43:23pm

re: #442 realwest

Say, let's not discuss the number of updings per comment,OK?

Haha. It doesn't exactly apply to you rw. You are basically friends with half of the people worth being friends with in this here community. You say more good mornings and good nights to people than any two others combined and those don't exactly get updinged very often. Just saying.

453 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:43:38pm

re: #440 stretch

okay - though i'm sticking with topic, and does the "particularly offensive" part include dismissing claims by evolutionists?

You haven't dismissed any arguments as far as I've seen. You came across to me as dismissive, but have not actually put paid to any arguments.

454 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:45:06pm

re: #445 realwest

kool and the gang

455 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:45:16pm

re: #450 stretch

Thank you. You answer is sufficient.

456 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:45:40pm

re: #449 sattv4u2

thats what I said !

What the hell happened there?!? Did I mention I was tired?

Take two: I grew up in the western suburbs near Framingham and then lived in both Newton and Boston proper. Moved to DC when I met my wife.

PIMF!

457 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:46:11pm

re: #444 BlueCanuck
What a GREAT way to spend that time. I've been working on getting Mom to give me a) a family tree and b) her recollections of her life (she's 84 and was a young woman during the Great Depression) but so far, she's just not interested. Same thing happend with my Grandmother too. Really a shame.
But good on you and I hope you keep working on it!

458 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:46:13pm

re: #450 stretch

Question for you.

I take it you believe in the Creator.
which one are you refering too?
Do you believe in his Creation?
not following you; do you mean like if we are really here or not?
Do you believe what His Creation tells us?
what is His Creation telling us specifically?
So it should like you would say yes to 1&2 but no to 3.
Why would you discount what God's own creation tells us?
you lost me

And again with the hamster wheel.

GAZE

459 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:46:23pm

re: #453 Dark_Falcon

You haven't dismissed any arguments as far as I've seen. You came across to me as dismissive, but have not actually put paid to any arguments.

how does that follow from GAZE? What does "put paid" mean?

460 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:46:26pm

re: #456 freedombilly

What the hell happened there?!? Did I mention I was tired?

Take two: I grew up in the western suburbs near Framingham and then lived in both Newton and Boston proper. Moved to DC when I met my wife.

PIMF!

country bumpkin!

461 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:46:35pm

re: #450 stretch

Religion should not be taught as science, and science should not be taught as religion. I.D. or Creationism is not science. And yes evolution happens. It has been seen in the laboratory, it has been seen in nature. I won't bother linking because you will probably not link it. Oh, and just because two seperate spieces can interbreed doesn't mean they are the same, i.e. ligers, lepons, mules. . . . . . .

462 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:47:27pm

re: #450 stretch

You've STILL to answer this question -

Name one physical phenomenon that has been discovered to have a non naturalistic - ie supernatural - explanation.

463 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:47:47pm

re: #457 realwest

Have no choice in the matter. :)

/she's the only living person that knows whose who in most of the pictures.

464 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:47:58pm

re: #460 sattv4u2

country bumpkin!

I done used to ride my tractor to town to buy milk and eggs. And to Fenway.

465 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:49:15pm

re: #462 Jimmah

You've STILL to answer this question -

Name one physical phenomenon that has been discovered to have a non naturalistic - ie supernatural - explanation.

The Turtle Stack..
Duh!
/ ;-)

466 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:49:21pm

re: #464 freedombilly

I done used to ride my tractor to town to buy milk and eggs. And to Fenway.

I started out as a child...:)

467 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:49:38pm

re: #447 Killian Bundy
Uh huh. You're right about that Killian. Course, now the Giants have BOTH of their 1,000 yard rushers back and in good health, not to mention the two offensive linemen we lost just before that game.
Wanna make just a little sidebet?

468 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:49:46pm

i've been reading through the numerous comments on "downdings", "karma" intermixed with the spicy language, speculations regarding my family lineages and a few "GAZE"'s. So you like to chase off anyone who dares to disagree?

I have to say that this stuff here looks a bit cultish.

469 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:49:48pm

I'm not trying to be sophomoric here.....can anybody explain to me why the frick we bother to vote?
Al Franken winning in Minnesota destroys my faith in everything this country stands for. How the frick does this happen? Do we just keep re-running the results until we get the desired outcome? Is there nobody enraged about this? Have we become a nation of sheep?

All the above is rhetorical.......I know most of my friends here are just as upset. It just seems that the other side can pretty much do whatever they want and we just have to sit and take it. Makes me physically ill.......

470 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:50:23pm

re: #352 realwest

Geebus - first sentence from your link:

[emphasis added realwest].
Aside from the fact that the "Palestinian People" are only an international construct to describe the Jordegptians, how the fuck can there be a cease fire with them?! What, are we now to believe that Fatah is more peaceful than Hamas? That Hamas will go quietly into the night?
Absolute utter bullshit. Hamas charter - oft repeatedly with fondnss by Hamas leaders and "fighters" is to destroy the state of Israel and kill all Israelis. That they were elected into power by the "Palestinian People" says a great deal more about the Palestinian People than it does about the probablility of success of including them in any way, shape or form in any ceasefire agreement.
Israel simply must destroy Hamas' leaders, fighters, and enablers. Period.

We destroy Hamas, and then what? Another terrorist group is going to take their place. Replacing them with Fatah would be idiotic - Fatah is just as intent as Hamas to get rid of Israel. There is no long term solution to this crisis...there never has (at least a realistic solution) been. The only solution is deporting all the "Palestinians" into their surrounding Arab countries. Then build a wall around Israel and tell everyone to stay out.

Screw the damn world. All this country wants is to be left the fuck alone, and they can't even have that.

471 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:50:37pm

re: #459 stretch

how does that follow from GAZE? What does "put paid" mean?

To "put paid" to an argument is to refute it in decisive fashion.

472 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:51:17pm

re: #454 Jimmah

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

Darn, I've been away too long.

473 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:51:28pm

re: #451 buzzsawmonkey
Aw crap buzz - g'head and remind me of how old I am.
Hell, I even remember Romper Room!

474 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:51:33pm

re: #469 LGoPs

I'm not trying to be sophomoric here.....can anybody explain to me why the frick we bother to vote?
Al Franken winning in Minnesota destroys my faith in everything this country stands for. How the frick does this happen? Do we just keep re-running the results until we get the desired outcome? Is there nobody enraged about this? Have we become a nation of sheep?

All the above is rhetorical.......I know most of my friends here are just as upset. It just seems that the other side can pretty much do whatever they want and we just have to sit and take it. Makes me physically ill.......

The undying legacy of Al Gore's 2000 Presidential campaign. If at first you don't succeed, sue!

475 rawmuse  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:51:56pm

re: #350 Walter L. Newton

For those who have not seen these cams, some interesting stuff going on at the collider in France/Switzerland

[Link: www.cyriak.co.uk...]

Ack! Run for your lives!

476 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:52:05pm

re: #461 BlueCanuck

Religion should not be taught as science, and science should not be taught as religion. I.D. or Creationism is not science. And yes evolution happens. It has been seen in the laboratory, it has been seen in nature. I won't bother linking because you will probably not link it. Oh, and just because two seperate spieces can interbreed doesn't mean they are the same, i.e. ligers, lepons, mules. . . . . . .

What's been seen in a laboratory? With all the empirical evidence claimed on this blog; still no testable experiments showing naturalistic origins for life, or for species evolving one to another.

It seems so convenient for evolutionists to basically say "just give us one living cell, and we'll take it from there".

477 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:53:08pm

re: #474 freedombilly

The undying legacy of Al Gore's 2000 Presidential campaign. If at first you don't succeed, sue!

May Al Gore's name go down in infamy.......
*spit*

478 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:53:11pm

re: #476 stretch

What's been seen in a laboratory? With all the empirical evidence claimed on this blog; still no testable experiments showing naturalistic origins for life, or for species evolving one to another.

It seems so convenient for evolutionists to basically say "just give us one living cell, and we'll take it from there".

You misrepresent the definition of science.

479 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:53:16pm

re: #473 realwest

Aw crap buzz - g'head and remind me of how old I am.
Hell, I even remember Romper Room!

How about Ding Dong school...now that's old...and for that matter so am I. And Realwest, your in my prayers.

480 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:54:13pm

re: #478 freedombilly

You misrepresent the definition of science.

"the study of" is the one that comes to mind

481 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:54:18pm

re: #479 Dustyvet

How about Ding Dong school...now that's old...and for that matter so am I. And Realwest, your in my prayers.

Nothing against Ding Dong school but the upding was for realwest!

482 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:54:30pm

re: #452 freedombilly
Well sure, I understand that - I'm a friendly fellow!
But mandymanners - also a friendly person - gets updings for "go piss up a rope" and all and she has more than twice the Karma that I do!
Maybe I should stop saying good morning and good night to folks, ya think?

483 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:54:31pm
484 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:54:38pm

re: #476 stretch

What's been seen in a laboratory? With all the empirical evidence claimed on this blog; still no testable experiments showing naturalistic origins for life, or for species evolving one to another.

It seems so convenient for evolutionists to basically say "just give us one living cell, and we'll take it from there".

Where is your evidence for creationism?

485 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:55:18pm

re: #469 LGoPs

I'm not trying to be sophomoric here.....can anybody explain to me why the frick we bother to vote?
Al Franken winning in Minnesota destroys my faith in everything this country stands for. How the frick does this happen? Do we just keep re-running the results until we get the desired outcome? Is there nobody enraged about this? Have we become a nation of sheep?

All the above is rhetorical.......I know most of my friends here are just as upset. It just seems that the other side can pretty much do whatever they want and we just have to sit and take it. Makes me physically ill.......

I am enraged, LGoPs. The win by Obama took the wind out of my sails. I am in disbelief -- again -- that a candidate like Franken (and Obama) can win. But, they did. My strategy is to hunker down and weather it out. However, I feel the damage incurred in the next four years will be irreversible. My advice: Support like hell your candidate next time around, and stock up on ammo while it's still (marginally) affordable.

486 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:55:51pm

re: #484 traderjoe9

Where is your evidence for creationism?

sorry to play devils advocate here, but have they stopped calling it Darwins "THEORY" of eveolution?

487 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:56:12pm

re: #473 realwest

Truth be told. I was on Romper Room in 1962 in Az with Ms. "someone later accused of some nefarious activity". I presented my collection of presidential milk bottle caps. Remember them milk bottles?

488 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:56:20pm

re: #478 freedombilly

You misrepresent the definition of science.

Ignore him, billy. He's the ranting preacher on the street corner.

489 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:56:32pm

re: #485 pink freud

I am enraged, LGoPs. The win by Obama took the wind out of my sails. I am in disbelief -- again -- that a candidate like Franken (and Obama) can win. But, they did. My strategy is to hunker down and weather it out. However, I feel the damage incurred in the next four years will be irreversible. My advice: Support like hell your candidate next time around, and stock up on ammo while it's still (marginally) affordable.

Amen, my friend.

490 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:56:59pm

re: #480 stretch

"the study of" is the one that comes to mind

That's -ology. You can study many things that have nothing to do with science.

Theology
Astrology
UFO-ology
Among others.

Studying it doesn't make it science. Rigorous application of the scientific method does.

491 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:57:06pm

re: #482 realwest

Well sure, I understand that - I'm a friendly fellow!
But mandymanners - also a friendly person - gets updings for "go piss up a rope" and all and she has more than twice the Karma that I do!
Maybe I should stop saying good morning and good night to folks, ya think?

Or good morning, now go piss up a rope, or good night, now go piss up a rope....:) ding...:)

492 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:57:29pm

re: #486 sattv4u2

sorry to play devils advocate here, but have they stopped calling it Darwins "THEORY" of eveolution?

No, they have not. But, it is the theory that by far best fits the facts.

493 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:57:34pm
494 sattv4u2  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:58:01pm

re: #491 Dustyvet

Or good morning, now go piss up a rope, or good night, now go piss up a rope....:) ding...:)

there ,, see how easy that was to get an uppie!?!?

495 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:58:20pm

re: #465 jcm

The Turtle Stack..
Duh!
/ ;-)

The unfathomable dumbitude of creationists - another mystery not explained by science?

496 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:58:55pm

re: #488 Dark_Falcon

Ignore him, billy. He's the ranting preacher on the street corner.

I even hesitated before hitting post. Should have went with my gut. Almost cut and pasted the Random House definition of science but decided to not waste my time.

497 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:59:20pm

re: #456 freedombilly

Ha! I grew up in Brighton, and then we moved to Newton...Cabot Street. Newton High School, class of 1955...when there was only one Newton High, with Buildings 1, 2 & 3.

I have lived in NY for nearly 50 years, though. We lived in Brookline when we were first married, as my husband was in the Army, stationed at the now-defunct Boston Army Base. I met him in Brooklyn, where I trained as an RN at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital.

Our first child was born at the Beth Israel..

I couldn't talk with a Boston accent if I tried!

498 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:59:23pm

re: #463 BlueCanuck
Oh I'm sure - but it must still be fun! So go ahead and enjoy it my friend!

499 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:00:04pm
500 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:00:13pm

re: #485 pink freud

My advice, and has been, to go local and find the best that will serve and then leave.. Davy Crocketts, I call them.

If I may suggest..
Federalist Society

501 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:00:31pm

re: #497 NY Nana

I lived in Nonantum for a year and loved it. Great town!

502 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:00:56pm

re: #462 Jimmah

You've STILL to answer this question -

Name one physical phenomenon that has been discovered to have a non naturalistic - ie supernatural - explanation.

If a physical phenomenon has been "discovered", then it would be presumed to have a naturalistic explanation. I think that you have posed an illogical question.

The theory of evolution must stand on its own, on its purely naturalistic foundation, whether you happen to have an alternative that you are philosophically predisposed against or not.

503 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:01:30pm

re: #493 buzzsawmonkey

I would say that it is time to demand of the GOP that it return to what it used to consider its principles and that it not think of itself as a party condemned to permanent minority status, as it largely appears to now.

Rule Number 1 for the GOP needs to be.....act like you don't give a shit what the media thinks of you and just do the right thing. Because the truth is, the media will always be against republicans...it's in their DNA since the fucking '60's. Accept it and drive on and hell, you might even pick up some followers.......
- ''There ain't no rules in a knifefight''

504 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:01:48pm

Good evening, lizards. How is everything going with the "cult"?/

505 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:02:21pm

re: #499 buzzsawmonkey

That sounds like a great name for a club.

It would have to a a secret one. Then I have the problem of not wanting to belong to a club that would accept the likes of me.

506 slokat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:02:45pm

I think that we can give supporting evidence of humans evolving into trolls, in just a single thread... that's faster than fruit flies.

507 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:02:59pm

re: #476 stretch

I don't have the links handy, but Charles has posted them here before. Example in the laboratory: bacteria evolving to consume the citrate culture. Real world examples: Lizards changing form that is totally different from their parent stock in ways that were unsuspected in a 30 year period. Other lizards changing form and function in a similar time span due to an outside stimulus forcing the change.

BTW, have you actually read "On the Origin of the Species" by Charles Darwin? It may be a little out of date with all the discoveries going on, but the original premise and thesis is still sound.

508 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:03:00pm

re: #486 sattv4u2

sorry to play devils advocate here, but have they stopped calling it Darwins "THEORY" of eveolution?

It just irks me when people demand that creationism must be taught in school over science; evolution is a legitimate science topic. Creationism is based on religion...and I think our society has moved beyond that.

509 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:03:05pm

Good night my friends. Don't let the trolls bite. RW - I hope you have a much better week than you are anticipating. You are in all of our thoughts. And one more thing...

Go piss a rope everybody!

510 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:03:05pm

re: #460 sattv4u2

Hey, I grew up in the same area.

So what am I? Chopped liver? ;)

511 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:03:17pm

re: #490 jcm

That's -ology. You can study many things that have nothing to do with science.

Theology
Astrology
UFO-ology
Among others.

Studying it doesn't make it science. Rigorous application of the scientific method does.

so the scientific method requires the analysis of testable and repeatable experimental observations. There are none showing a naturalistic origin for life, or for a creature of any species spontaneously evolving into another species. so the scientific method debunks evolution, wouldn't you agree?

512 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:04:34pm

re: #498 realwest

Best part was scanning baby pictures of my grandparents.

/one was from 1904.

513 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:04:52pm

re: #505 jcm

It would have to a a secret one. Then I have the problem of not wanting to belong to a club that would accept the likes of me.

Ancient Order of Turtles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

514 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:04:53pm

re: #509 freedombilly

That would be up a rope! PIMF x2=time for bed.

515 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:05:10pm

re: #507 BlueCanuck

I don't have the links handy, but Charles has posted them here before. Example in the laboratory: bacteria evolving to consume the citrate culture. Real world examples: Lizards changing form that is totally different from their parent stock in ways that were unsuspected in a 30 year period. Other lizards changing form and function in a similar time span due to an outside stimulus forcing the change.

BTW, have you actually read "On the Origin of the Species" by Charles Darwin? It may be a little out of date with all the discoveries going on, but the original premise and thesis is still sound.

yes, i have seen all of those examples, and guess what? There were no claims that the observations had identified a new species. E-coli evolved to E-coli. What of it?

516 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:05:27pm

re: #509 freedombilly

What ever happened to "weet dreams"?

517 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:05:40pm
518 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:06:07pm

re: #493 buzzsawmonkey

I would say that it is time to demand of the GOP that it return to what it used to consider its principles and that it not think of itself as a party condemned to permanent minority status, as it largely appears to now.

Agreed, but a strong opposing factor is that of the wildly popular government handout. The appeal of the nanny state seems stronger than ever in my lifetime. Why would a voter/citizen in today's climate (liberal indoctrination in schools, the entitlement attitude infecting the current new crop of voters, government-paid mortgages, etc.) voluntarily opt for the party of small government and self-sufficiency? It's like a plague, is how I see it, and it seems to be spreading.

519 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:06:09pm

re: #502 stretch

If a physical phenomenon has been "discovered", then it would be presumed to have a naturalistic explanation. I think that you have posed an illogical question.

Biological diversity is a physical phenomenon that has been discovered is it not? It is you who have proposed an illogical, supernatural 'explanation'.

520 Summersong  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:06:36pm

Romper Room..I remember it.

"Do be a do bee, don't be a don't bee"...

There are some very old lyrics that live in my head.

521 slokat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:07:01pm

re: #516 BlueCanuck

What ever happened to "weet dreams"?

...another casualty of electing the "O"?

522 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:07:10pm

LEGEND OF THE TURTLE:

Once upon a time, many years ago there was a man who was of good and noble character; without a trace of impurity in his thoughts. Unfortunately all about him he saw persons with vulgar minds unable to think of anything, except in sexual terms. He bemoaned his inability to find others with a similar highmindness, to his own. Like a turtle, he retreated into his shell.> Then one day, while partaking of a pint of ale (for purely medicinal purposes of course), he realized that there must be others like him. Forced into bars, and saloons; imbibing alcohol as a balm for the ills inflicted by obscene and vulgar persons.

He resolved to locate all the other pure minded individuals that he could, even if this meant spending his every waking hour crawling from one bar to the next. This was the begining of the Turtles. He embarked upon this quest with vigor and determination, but, since he was a man of limited means, quickly ran out of money.

Then one day, he got a tip on a horse running at long odds at the local track. The problem was that he had no money left with which to gamble. So, in desperation he wagered his last and most prized possession a donkey which he had raised from birth. Now this donkey was a particularly gentle and temperate animal, with a loving disposition. To lose his donkey would have been devastating, and yet what choice was there if the quest was to continue? Fortunately, he won the wager, and with the money was able to continue in his search for many more years, and begin the association of Turtles we know today.

And so, to comemorate this event, all members of this esteemed organization when asked, "Are You a Turtle?", must respond immediately without hesitation or fear of embarrassment, in a voice as loud and clear as the voice of the questioner: "You bet your sweet ass, I am" Failure to do so at anytime, will be penalized by having to buy a beer for everyone close enough to have heard the original question.

523 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:07:13pm

re: #515 stretch

I wonder if you are one of the seven blind men describing the elephant. No matter what. You can't dissaude a person who refuses to open there eyes. Too bad you aren't famous or we could add you to the list of idiotarians.

524 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:07:21pm

re: #517 buzzsawmonkey

If you've read any of the information provided in these threads at all, you know that your entire paragraph above is false.

525 freedombilly  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:07:33pm

re: #516 BlueCanuck

What ever happened to "weet dreams"?

See #482;)

526 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:07:59pm

re: #506 slokat

I think that we can give supporting evidence of humans evolving into trolls, in just a single thread... that's faster than fruit flies.

100+ downdings in this thread alone, he has.

527 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:08:03pm

re: #507 BlueCanuck

I don't have the links handy, but Charles has posted them here before. Example in the laboratory: bacteria evolving to consume the citrate culture. Real world examples: Lizards changing form that is totally different from their parent stock in ways that were unsuspected in a 30 year period. Other lizards changing form and function in a similar time span due to an outside stimulus forcing the change.

BTW, have you actually read "On the Origin of the Species" by Charles Darwin? It may be a little out of date with all the discoveries going on, but the original premise and thesis is still sound.

Yes, we lizards are know for our adaptability. We developed the ability to digest trolls very quickly and right now we are evolving fire breath to make flaming them easier. :)

528 stretch  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:08:12pm

re: #524 stretch

bye for now

529 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:09:35pm

re: #469 LGoPs The other side can't really pretty much do whatever they want while we just have to sit and take it. The judicial process will get this as straightend out as possible.
But in one sense you're correct: crooks do, as a rule, have a jump on the cops cause the crooks have no morals or scruples AND they get to go first. Sorta like a cop can't prevent a crime before a crime is committed, but must apprehend the crook "after the fact (crime)".
But justice does have a way of winning out - even assuming Franken's "victory" is upheld in court, Minnesotans lose because they have Al Franken in the Senate. At least until he's indicted for his income tax problems. And - no offense to Minn. lizards here, but they deserve Al Franken - MINNESOTA allowed ACORN (and others) to register/file absentee ballots when they were students there and then went home and voted where mom and dad live. Democrats don't want voter ID cards for bullshit reasons - but really to make voter fraud easier.
I don't want to play the game that way, thank you.
I will stay honest and true to the morality that made this Nation great.

530 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:09:41pm

re: #527 Dark_Falcon

Yes, we lizards are know for our adaptability. We developed the ability to digest trolls very quickly and right now we are evolving fire breath to make flaming them easier. :)

But, but, what about the traditional BBQ?

/looks at the green egg longingly. . . . . .

531 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:10:07pm
532 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:11:11pm

re: #520 Summersong

Simple, but it stays with you, yes.

533 Salem  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:11:19pm

I was on Romper Room. Still have my Mr. Do Bee mugs.

534 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:12:00pm

re: #526 pink freud

100+ downdings in this thread alone, he has.

Master Yoda, do you know any Jedi techniques to use a Lightsaber as a cluebat, to help us better instruct trolls?

535 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:12:01pm

re: #479 Dustyvet
Thanks Dusty - I need 'em I'm afraid.

536 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:12:42pm

re: #511 stretch

so the scientific method requires the analysis of testable and repeatable experimental observations. There are none showing a naturalistic origin for life, or for a creature of any species spontaneously evolving into another species. so the scientific method debunks evolution, wouldn't you agree?

Not hardly. Evolution per se does not address origins, it address the development and changes over in the flora and fauna of earth. Darwin's Origin's of Species does not discuss the origins of life, but the development of a species.

Many hypothesis exist on origins, so far it's an open question.

Bringing in a metaphysical explanation for the origins of life is patently non-scientific as metaphysics is au priori outside the realm of physical examination. Science is limited to the physical realm.

It's this fundamental error, the mixing of metaphysical and physical. That I an most here object to. In the case of The DI this mixing is intentional and made for political purposes. In other case it from a misapprehension of the boundaries of the metaphysical and physical.

537 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:13:01pm

re: #528 stretch

bye for now

Good night, and good riddance.

538 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:13:08pm

re: #518 pink freud

Agreed, but a strong opposing factor is that of the wildly popular government handout. The appeal of the nanny state seems stronger than ever in my lifetime. Why would a voter/citizen in today's climate (liberal indoctrination in schools, the entitlement attitude infecting the current new crop of voters, government-paid mortgages, etc.) voluntarily opt for the party of small government and self-sufficiency? It's like a plague, is how I see it, and it seems to be spreading.

You are correct and taken to it's natural conclusion, government handouts ultimately mean the end of our form of government. Once the citizenry learns that it can vote itself spoils from others, it's merely a matter of time before they figure out to cut out the middleman and just come and get it for themselves. And the fucking democrats are intentionally teaching this in our schools, in our culture.........
The only hope is to appeal to people's innate common sense and get them to understand that ultimately, the source of this redistribution will be themselves. You'll never reach all, but maybe enough to ward off what seems to be heading our way.....

539 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:13:22pm

re: #513 Dustyvet

Ancient Order of Turtles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"an honorable drinking fraternity"

I'm In!

540 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:13:31pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

Don't know about using it as a clue bat. But it sure is good for removing buttocks from the troll.

/it slices, it dices, it does trolls julienne.

541 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:13:58pm

re: #487 Mel Lono
NO SHIT? You were on Romper Room? And yes I do remember those bottle caps! LOL!
That's just great Mel. Really!

542 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:14:37pm

re: #531 buzzsawmonkey

Even bratty children respect a firm parent.

Adherence to principle wins out in the end, even over decadence; if it didn't, the world would have gone completely to hell long ago.

Yes. This I believe.

543 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:15:03pm

re: #540 BlueCanuck

Don't know about using it as a clue bat. But it sure is good for removing buttocks from the troll.

/it slices, it dices, it does trolls julienne.

LOL!

544 slokat  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:15:07pm

re: #536 jcm

In other case it from a misapprehension of the boundaries of the metaphysical and physical.

Hhmmm... calls for a "Two State" solution?

545 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:15:33pm

re: #529 realwest

So true and we, us, R's will never say it. I hate wait and see. But then I am a patient man.

546 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:16:13pm

re: #503 LGoPs
Agree and just add "don't bring a knife to a gun fight."

547 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:16:42pm

re: #501 freedombilly

Yes, it is. I lived in Newton from age 12 to 18.

Remember Norumbega Park, in Auburndale? It is, alas, gone, since 1963. I used to feed the ducks there when I was a kid.

Got to go to sleep! G'nite, all! Sweet dreams.

/I hope that this will not cause me nightmares re Boston drivers!

548 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:16:43pm

re: #541 realwest

NO SHIT? You were on Romper Room? And yes I do remember those bottle caps! LOL!
That's just great Mel. Really!

I remember Gabby Hayes...had a lasting effect on me, Now at the age of 61 I look like him...Head em off at the pass Roy!

549 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:17:02pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

Master Yoda, do you know any Jedi techniques to use a Lightsaber as a cluebat, to help us better instruct trolls?

*Sigh. No. He seemed immune.

550 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:17:50pm

re: #516 BlueCanuck

What ever happened to "weet dreams"?

The one who started it was banned.

551 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:17:55pm

re: #504 Pvt Bin Jammin
Hey PBJ! Well we're still deciding what color and length of robes to wear! LOL!
Not really. How are you tonight (ooops I shouldn't have said that cause it's gonna kill my Karma score!).

552 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:18:04pm

re: #528 stretch

bye for now

footage of stretch making his dignified exit from the thread

Youtube Video
553 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:18:50pm

re: #551 realwest

Hey PBJ! Well we're still deciding what color and length of robes to wear! LOL!
Not really. How are you tonight (ooops I shouldn't have said that cause it's gonna kill my Karma score!).

You starting with the Snuggies bit again...:)

554 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:19:05pm

re: #509 freedombilly
Thanks and ROFL!

555 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:19:45pm

re: #541 realwest

I'd call my mom right now to find out who Ms. ? was and what got her fired, something about a bikini? (I was six), but it's late.

556 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:20:11pm

re: #512 BlueCanuck
Holy crap, that's like 104 or 105 years old!

557 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:20:12pm

re: #547 NY Nana

Goodnight Nana. Sweet dreams. Don't worry about those drivers, they have all moved out here to LA. LOL

558 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:20:43pm

re: #556 realwest

Holy crap, that's like 104 or 105 years old!

In Dog years I'm dead...:)

559 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:21:36pm

re: #552 Jimmah

footage of stretch making his dignified exit from the thread


Well, if you substitute a bag of dog crap for the stuntman, it works.

560 Summersong  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:21:44pm

re: #550 NY Nana

The one who started it was banned.

Wow, BeachKatie got the stick? I missed that episode.

561 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:22:08pm

re: #551 realwest

How about crimson? Sounds cool to me. LOL On second thought I suppose we should stick with lizard green.

562 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:22:34pm

re: #520 Summersong
OMG! I had actually forgotten those lyrics until you mentioned them!
Wow, we sure have a collection of older farts people around tonight!

563 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:22:43pm

re: #556 realwest

Yep, :)

/there are a few that are even older . . . . . .
//come from a long line of long lifers

564 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:23:51pm

It aint easy being green...

565 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:24:07pm

re: #504 Pvt Bin Jammin

Didn't see you! I am falling asleep on the keyboard, and at my age it really looks awful! ;)

Sweet dreams!

566 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:24:08pm

re: #526 pink freud
100 in this thread alone? That's gotta be a record!

567 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:24:47pm

re: #565 NY Nana

I am barely here. Just checking in to say hello as usual.

568 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:24:56pm

re: #550 NY Nana

I know. Missed that episode, but it was still going on for awhile after it happened.

569 shanec99  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:25:33pm

re: #550 NY Nana

The one who started it was banned.


Good... I can't imagine it being tasteful to wish everyone a wet dream even if you add an extra e.
Thank heavens he was banned... must be a damned Mohammedan dreaming about his 72 virgins in paradise who came up with the idea of wishing everyone a wet dream with an extra e.

570 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:25:51pm

re: #566 realwest

Well spread out across a few posts maybe. She who was worse got more though.

/if you count one post on a thread counting. .

571 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:26:28pm

re: #531 buzzsawmonkey
"Adherence to principle wins out in the end, even over decadence; if it didn't, the world would have gone completely to hell long ago."
Amen buzz, amen.
Good will win out in the end, it's just that sometimes that end seems to take forever to get here!

572 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:26:53pm

re: #566 realwest

100 in this thread alone? That's gotta be a record!

[Link: www.tombstoneepitaph.com...]

573 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:27:13pm

re: #557 Pvt Bin Jammin

Don't worry about those drivers, they have all moved out here to LA. LOL

I didn't know you met all my cousins from Boston who moved to LA and Orange County! ;)

I am serious...only 2 who moved there were from NY..

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

574 LGoPs  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:27:14pm

Goodnight my friends. I have to go take my blood pressure medicine to deal with the Al Franken-stein dreams I'm going to have tonight......
:)

575 pink freud  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:27:15pm

re: #566 realwest

100 in this thread alone? That's gotta be a record!

I read the whole thing, and after a short while I had a mental image of a rubber man (stretch) bouncing his head off of a brick wall. It's persisted for 500 posts. LOL.

576 Summersong  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:27:31pm

re: #562 realwest

OMG! I had actually forgotten those lyrics until you mentioned them!
Wow, we sure have a collection of older farts people around tonight!

Hey! I'm younger than Walter! LOL

Remember this?

"Romper, bomper, stomper, boo. Tell me, tell me, tell me do. Magic mirror, tell me today. Did all my friends have fun at play?"

577 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:27:37pm

re: #559 Dark_Falcon

It's always hard to find just the right man in flames video at short notice.

I like this one better

Youtube Video
578 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:27:58pm

re: #533 Salem You still have your Do Bee mugs? They must be worth a fortune to collectors of that sort of thing.

579 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:28:22pm

re: #573 NY Nana

LOL
Love ya, Nana.

580 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:28:39pm

re: #566 realwest

100 in this thread alone? That's gotta be a record!

annefrance... -600 or more on one comment.

581 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:29:05pm

re: #539 jcm

The question is " Are You a Turtle'?

582 Summersong  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:29:16pm

re: #569 shanec99

Good... I can't imagine it being tasteful to wish everyone a wet dream even if you add an extra e.
Thank heavens he was banned... must be a damned Mohammedan dreaming about his 72 virgins in paradise who came up with the idea of wishing everyone a wet dream with an extra e.

It was a typo. She meant to type sweet dreams...and it came out wrong.
But, I do agree, in that I never cared for it.

583 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:29:18pm

re: #568 BlueCanuck

I didn't actually see it, either, but someone told me. IIRC, it was actually a typo...and a show of hands, please, for anyone who hasn't made one..or more.

Can you see me raising my right hand? ;)

584 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:29:40pm

re: #581 Mel Lono

The question is " Are You a Turtle'?

You bet your sweet ass I am...

585 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:29:44pm

re: #577 Jimmah

It's always hard to find just the right man in flames video at short notice.

I like this one better


So do I. Thank you.

586 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:30:54pm

re: #584 Dustyvet

we have a winner Turtle!

587 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:31:08pm

re: #569 shanec99

Good... I can't imagine it being tasteful to wish everyone a wet dream even if you add an extra e.
Thank heavens he was banned... must be a damned Mohammedan dreaming about his 72 virgins in paradise who came up with the idea of wishing everyone a wet dream with an extra e.

ROTFL..it was actually a female!

And they get 72 burnt raisins!

588 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:31:16pm

re: #583 NY Nana

Don't think I have that many hands for all my typos.

/*sigh* I don't preview enough sometimes.

589 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:31:20pm

re: #574 LGoPs

Goodnight my friends. I have to go take my blood pressure medicine to deal with the Al Franken-stein dreams I'm going to have tonight......
:)

So...was the Frankenstein character Jewish?

590 shanec99  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:31:30pm

re: #580 jcm

annefrance... -600 or more on one comment.

You know it is frequently the ignorant people who have very little of consequence about which to speak who frequently dominate a conversation. An observation.

591 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:31:32pm

re: #538 LGoPs
You're last paragraph is correct, but when you say

Once the citizenry learns that it can vote itself spoils from others, it's merely a matter of time before they figure out to cut out the middleman and just come and get it for themselves. And the fucking democrats are intentionally teaching this in our schools, in our culture.........

I think you're wrong. The citizenry has always known this, but it was societal pressure to adhere to certain respected norms that kept us from going off the deep end of something for nothing.
And that societal norm is still there and I believe it will win out, ultimately.

592 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:32:01pm

re: #586 Mel Lono

we have a winner Turtle!

LOL...:) where's my beer...:)

593 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:33:11pm

re: #583 NY Nana

I didn't actually see it, either, but someone told me. IIRC, it was actually a typo...and a show of hands, please, for anyone who hasn't made one..or more.

Can you see me raising my right hand? ;)

Typos? Moi?
LOL

594 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:33:49pm

re: #590 shanec99

You know it is frequently the ignorant people who have very little of consequence about which to speak who frequently dominate a conversation. An observation.

Sad but true. Their inanities require correction, thus wasting everyone's time. That's what GAZE was invented to prevent.

595 shanec99  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:34:44pm

re: #587 NY Nana

ROTFL..it was actually a female!

And they get 72 burnt raisins!


OK so it was a transvestite or cross gendered Mohammedan who underwent a sex change that wished everyone a wet dream. Good grief.

596 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:35:12pm

re: #558 Dustyvet
Well hell, then we both are!

597 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:35:26pm

re: #580 jcm

/Here is her prize winning post.

598 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:36:17pm

re: #588 BlueCanuck

Welcome to the club! It has a very exclusive membership!

599 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:36:38pm

re: #597 NY Nana

I am itching to down ding it again.

600 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:36:50pm

re: #591 realwest

You're last paragraph is correct, but when you say

I think you're wrong. The citizenry has always known this, but it was societal pressure to adhere to certain respected norms that kept us from going off the deep end of something for nothing.
And that societal norm is still there and I believe it will win out, ultimately.

I think you are right, and the societal norm is still there and will win in the end.

The game changer is the New Deal / Great Society welfare society mentality. There's been a shift in those 70 years from "what can I do" to "government should do something."

Societal norm will be re-established. But only after the ponzi scheme of the welfare society collapse and the norm is re-established by necessity.

601 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:37:08pm

re: #572 Dustyvet
LOL, thanks Dusty!

602 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:37:20pm

re: #593 Pvt Bin Jammin

Typos? Moi?
LOL

My long-lost sister!

603 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:37:56pm

re: #585 Dark_Falcon

It's still not quite right though. The search for the perfect man in flames clip will go on another time. Night folks, have a good one:)

604 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:37:58pm

re: #596 realwest

Well hell, then we both are!

By the way did you go look at this?

[Link: www.tombstoneepitaph.com...]

605 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:38:37pm

re: #604 Dustyvet

By the way did you go look at this?

[Link: www.tombstoneepitaph.com...]

Never mind, you did...:)

606 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:38:57pm

re: #576 Summersong
ARRGGHHH! STOP! That's gonna be going around in my head all night and all day tomorrow!
:)

607 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:39:22pm

re: #599 Pvt Bin Jammin

If you have an itch? Scratch Ding it!

608 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:40:13pm

re: #606 realwest

ARRGGHHH! STOP! That's gonna be going around in my head all night and all day tomorrow!
:)

Happy, happy, joy ,joy...diving under desk...

609 shanec99  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:40:35pm

re: #607 NY Nana

If you have an itch? Scratch Ding it!


If its anything like the "seven year itch"... well you are in for a lot of scratching.

610 Summersong  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:41:03pm

re: #606 realwest

ARRGGHHH! STOP! That's gonna be going around in my head all night and all day tomorrow!
:)

LOL Mine, too. I'll stop!

611 realwest  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:41:18pm

Well y'all I gotta run - geez, look at the time and I got a loooong day tomorrow, er today.
Anyway, have a good night you all and I hope I get the chance to see you all down the road!

Good night, all!

612 BignJames  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:41:50pm

re: #597 NY Nana

/Here is her prize winning post.

A might wordy, wasn't she?

613 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:42:31pm

I'm out too. I've got to work tomorrow.

614 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:43:06pm

[Link: www.jpost.com...]


The military assessed that the Palestinian terrorists were trying to lure the soldier to go after them alone into the tunnel in an effort to kidnap him

.

Boy they are desperate!

615 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:43:08pm

Night real, and best of luck. May you get nothing but good news.

616 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:43:16pm

re: #613 Dark_Falcon

I'm out too. I've got to work tomorrow.

G'night!

617 Dustyvet  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:43:34pm

Weet dreams all, I'm down...

618 jcm  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:43:45pm

re: #611 realwest

Well y'all I gotta run - geez, look at the time and I got a loooong day tomorrow, er today.
Anyway, have a good night you all and I hope I get the chance to see you all down the road!

Good night, all!

Night Real, sleep well.

619 shanec99  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:44:14pm

re: #613 Dark_Falcon

Well folks, I may as well leave too... I wont be alone in the ball park after everyone has taken the ball and gone home.

620 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:44:25pm

re: #607 NY Nana

If you have an itch? Scratch Ding it!

LOL I couldn't give you a down ding just for old Anne France. Gave an upding instead. After all, we are the typo sisters.

621 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:45:12pm

re: #7 karmic_inquisitor

Charles - I normally wouldn't post such a link in the top 20 comments, but you have got to look at this propaganda pic.

It implies that the tunnels into Gaza are used for the purpose of smuggling sheep (yes - because the joooos are that evil).

A new low for AFP.

That sure as Hell looks like a goat to me. And there have been other pictures of Palis hoisting a goat out of one the terminating shafts at the tunnel's end.

I'd say it's simple Pali disinformation; they trying to impart the meme that the tunnels are used for smuggling economic necessities, not weapons, and are a response to the "Israeli Blockade."

Same old same old.

622 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:45:34pm

re: #611 realwest

Good night, Realwest. The best of luck to you tomorrow. Will keep you in my prayers.

623 shanec99  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:46:14pm

re: #617 Dustyvet

Weet dreams all, I'm down...


There you go wishing folks wet dreams (with an extra e) again. Your laundry bill must me exorbitant.

624 Mel Lono  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:47:20pm

re: #584 Dustyvet

re: #620 Pvt Bin Jammin

going up?

625 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:48:59pm

re: #624 Mel Lono

I'll try to stick it out for a bit. Trying to get back to my earlier bedtime schedule but just can't seem to get into the groove. See ya >

626 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:49:58pm

re: #42 stretch

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

Sometimes a conspiracy is just a conspiracy. The Di is in it for the money; fleecing school boards at the behest of befuddled "Christians."

627 traderjoe9  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:52:27pm

I just spent two weeks doing absolutely nothing...I've been doing homework all day.

And of course it was the evil Zionists that distracted me...

628 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:52:40pm

re: #58 stretch

sure, an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution and the orgin of life are entirely naturalistic and supported by emprical evidence and the scientific method, but they have never observed in a testable fashion any creature changing from one species into another.

BS. You are turning into a moron before my very eyes.

629 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:53:26pm

re: #609 shanec99

;)

630 NY Nana  Sun, Jan 4, 2009 11:58:01pm

re: #620 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL I couldn't give you a down ding just for old Anne France. Gave an upding instead. After all, we are the typo sisters.

Can you believe she a is actually a lawyer in Montreal? Bet no one beats her record! OTOH.....hmmm.

The Typo Sisters! I never had a sister, and now I do!

Thanks for the up-ding. I am a regular ding-a-ling, and it is nearly 3 AM here, and NY Grampa is giving me 'The Look'. Oy!

631 Throbert McGee  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:00:34am

re: #145 Jimmah

Stretch thinks it's bad science to look for a naturalistic explanation for biological diversity; he thinks the scientifically rigorous thing to do would be to plump for a supernatural explanation, even though the supernatural has never had an explanatory role in explaining any phenomenon.

Well, the supernatural does have an explanatory role in accounting for what would otherwise be totally inexplicable phenomenonzizzes -- such as spontaneous parthenogenic pregnancies in virgin Jewish girls, or a guy suddenly being able to walk around with his old buddies after having been fatally nailed to a big wooden lowercase T and then lying around at room temperature for three days.

And that, I think, is the heart of the matter for Christian creationists -- they are reluctant to accept that life developed in a naturalistic, non-miraculous way because Christianity itself is based on a belief in miracles. So if it's true that God didn't miraculously form Adam out of clay and Eve out of a rib bone, but instead human beings "evolved from monkeys which evolved from dinosaurs which evolved from worms," what does that imply about Christianity's central miracles?

632 NY Nana  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:01:45am

re: #612 BignJames

A might wordy, wasn't she?

Hmmm. You could say that!

G'night for real! Sweet dreams, all!

633 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:03:07am

re: #75 jaunte

I think the objection there is going to be "well, that's still a lizard, it hasn't changed into a bird or a fish."

No doubt.

Of course, an individual animal, once born, remains in the same species until it dies.

Remember that "species" is a human construct, created by humans to satisfy our urge to pigeonhole stuff. To Nature, life is a continuum, and a frog is just X number of genes removed from a Frenchman.

/no slurs to the French intended, BTW.

634 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:15:03am

re: #94 stretch

if you believe in the 'big bang', then you could claim that one as being "supernatural"

I accept the Big Bang as being the best presently available hypothesis for the origin of the Universe. I don't "believe in" it, i.e. take it as an article of faith. It's consistent with the physical nature of the universe as we can currently observe it.

There could be a supernatural hand at work behind the Big Bang, or there could be not. It's neither required by, nor dismissed by, the theory, as the supernatural is inherently untestable.

Of course, you do know that the origin of the Universe is not addressed by the theory of Natural Selection?

635 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:49:22am

re: #272 Spar Kling

"I believe that it is wrong to teach science as a series of incontrovertible "facts" and that this approach misleads, underestimates, and demotivates students. When I was in high school, it was a observed "fact" that Jupiter had 12 moons and Saturn had 10, and it was a "fact" that hydra sometimes suffered from "depression" (yes, that's what the literature said), and that continental drift was a ludicrous idea of Velechovsky's."

Boy, you must have gone to a pretty crappy high school. I seem to remember being taught that Jupiter had 12 known moons, and Saturn had 10 known moons. In other words, they taught us about the ones then physically observable, but allowed for the possibility of more. That 12 moons of Jupiter were observable with the existing telescopes at a given point in time is an indisputable fact.

I'd get depressed, too, if I had snakes for hair!

Continental drift wasn't the brainchild of Velikovsky. It was first proposed by one Alfred Wegener in 1915. What his theory lacked was a mechanism for moving the continents around, so it was pretty much disregarded until the 1950s, when much compelling evidence commenced to be found.

The Skeptic's Dictionary had this to say about Velikovsky: "In short, like the creationists in their arguments against evolution, he starts with the assumption that the Bible is a foundation and guide for scientific truth." Even as far back as the 1950's, the scientific community was laughing at that joker.

636 Zola  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:27:51am

I've been reading LGF for some time now but rarely post. I've noticed more and more that all the site seems to focus on are the two broad topics of Islam and Evolution. Also, as a Christian, I will say that while I find much of what is said concerning my faith in Christ to be demeaning and quite hurtful at times, there are occasional opinions that cause me to search deeper into my own beliefs and understanding of the issues. However, when I tell others that I frequent this site called LGF, and when they ask what it's about, I'm often at a loss for words to best describe the average blogger who posts here. While many seem to lean Republican in their politics, i.e. Obama and Democrats don't seem to be favored too highly, at the same time I sense a strong anti-faith, anti-supernatural consensus. If you were trying to describe to someone what this blog is supposed to be about in a few sentences, what would you say?

637 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:42:35am

re: #636 Zola

If you were trying to describe to someone what this blog is supposed to be about in a few sentences, what would you say?


One hyphenated word:

Anti-idiotarian.

Which is not to say that Lizards, as a whole, smack people of faith with the broad-brush label "idiot". Just that most Lizards, whether they be of one faith or another, or no faith at all, stand strong against idiotarianism regardless of whether it comes from those who are faithful or faithless, right or left, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal, etc., etc., etc.

638 Sharmuta  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 2:29:24am

re: #429 realwest

I know it's fun to play with all sorts of trolls but ya know with some like Stretch it really is better to GAZE, IMO!

But GAZE allows his creationist nonsense to go un-refuted. In the case of creationist/ID trolls, facts are harder for them to deal with than silence. In fact- giving them silence is probably what they'd like.

639 Sharmuta  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 2:51:48am

re: #636 Zola

If you were trying to describe to someone what this blog is supposed to be about in a few sentences, what would you say?

The American ideals enshrined in our Constitution and Declaration of Independence have many enemies. LGF is where people interested in speaking up in defense of those ideals come to share their thoughts.

640 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:08:55am

re: #42 stretch

"These folks are a whole lot better at politics and public relations than they are at science, and that means that everyone who cares about science education should be on guard."

This guy is going right for the conspiracy theories and demagoguery. I am on guard alright for people who want to use public funds and public schools to push their evolutionist agendas.

Oh my yes! Perish the thought that public funds should actually be used to teach actual empirical science in public school science classes!

Do I really need a /?

641 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:23:45am

re: #58 stretch

sure, an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution and the orgin of life are entirely naturalistic and supported by emprical evidence and the scientific method, but they have never observed in a testable fashion any creature changing from one species into another.

You mean like Lenski's e coli?

And what about the overwhelming empirical evidence for common ancestry of the various and sundry species, which necessarily involves evolutionary divergence and speciation, that is provided by artifactual retroviral DNA?

But your pitiful, pathetic, failed and futile attempt at snide, snotty, and supercilious snark commits an egregious error and makes an unsupportable assumption.

The egregious error: Evolutionary theory does not involve individual creatures magically morphing from one species into another. It involves a species population's environmentally selected random mutations aggregating their changes over many, many generations, which leads us to:

The unsupportable assumption: That people who tend to live less than a century could observe this change happening over the span of all these generation, which they of course can't, unless the time coefficient of production of successive generations is extremely short, as in the case of Lenski's e coli bacteria. But the genetic evidence that they have indeed occurred is, like I said before, overwhelming.

Not even a nice try.

642 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:33:16am

re: #66 stretch

I should also add that I think the DI's approach of trying to introduce an alternative to humanism in the public schools is pointless. The only problem with public school is that it is still free for those who could afford to pay their own way. Once all the freeloaders are kicked out, or required to pay their own way, they will pay much more attention to what their kids are "learning".

Once again an old creationist canard rears its ugly head, as per instructions from the Disco Institute wedge Document, which instructs its acolytes to attempt to divert every discussion of evolution or creationism in public high school science classes for one about the presence vs. the absence of empirical evidence to one about Bad Old Atheists (or relativists, or humanists, ec.) vs. Good Old God. Time to decapitate it.

Empirical science is neither atheistic nor theistic. It is neither humanistic nor non-humanistic. It is all about the empirical evidence, the natural world, and the immanent domain. It has absolutely nothing to say about the supernatural or the extra-empirical or the transcendent. And the only thing that it stands relative to is the empirical evidence (it follows where that evidence leads, regardless of where that may be), while religious dogma asserts itself absolutely, and often in the very face of that very empirical evidence that conclusively falsifies its empirical contentions.

643 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:40:22am

re: #73 stretch

Are you saying that creation and evolution are on equal footing in backing up in a testable fashion what they claim? that's a very intriguing response to the post. Evolution should stand on its own, whether there are alternatives or not.

Evolutionary theory does stand on its own, with tsunamis and reams of empirical evidence accumulated by millions of scientists in the last hundred and fifty years to support it, and not a single credible shred of empirical evidence against it. Creationism and its bastard camo stepchild, ID, however, lack a single solitary crumb of supporting empirical evidence.

Show Me the Science!
[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

Youtube Video
644 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:46:00am

re: #82 stretch

Yeah they are, unless you want to say that private school and homeschool families should be exempt from property taxes. If you think your property taxes pay your own way, what would your standard of living be like if you had to pay for private school? THe difference would be the amount of subsidization that the taxpayers provide to you - which may make you a freeloader

In a lot of cases, people pay much more in property taxes than private school tuition would run. But the government cannot get into the business of subsidizing private sectarian religious education, unless it wants to subsidize it all, including madrassas. Because it cannot constitutionally favor one faith over any other.

645 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:50:10am

re: #78 stretch

I missed the part where the lizards became a different species, no longer able to procreate with other descendents from their "ancestral lines" Could you point that part out again please?

And you'll continue to miss it, because you won't live long enough to see it happen. Speciation to the point of reproductive exclusivity is kinda slow that way. Certainly much slower than a single human lifespan, unless you're willing to peer through a microscope for glimpses of Lenski's e coli.

646 Sharmuta  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:51:23am

re: #66 stretch

I should also add that I think the DI's approach of trying to introduce an alternative to humanism in the public schools is pointless. The only problem with public school is that it is still free for those who could afford to pay their own way. Once all the freeloaders are kicked out, or required to pay their own way, they will pay much more attention to what their kids are "learning".

You've discussed this before, and like then, you're just as wrong now. You have a real problem with "the rich" using public schools and call then "free-loaders". They pay property taxes too, pal. In fact- they pay most of the taxes, and they're just as entitled to use the public education system as everyone else.

If we were to implement your education policy, only "the poor" would be allowed public education. With they way the education system works now, you'd be harming the very people you think you're championing, or are you? This seems to be an over-arching position of yours- "the free loading rich in the public schools". That smacks of marxism, or worse!

I do not think your position would hold up in a court of law either- you cannot tax the rich to provide for public education, then deny them the right to use that which their money helps provide. And I find it completely un-American.

647 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:01:35am

re: #89 stretch

so back to the original statement - evolutionists believe in what they can't see, and by very nature cannot be testable: a naturalistic origin for life, and a miraculous and unknown, unobserved mechanism for one species changing into another

No, evolutionists accept that for which mountains of empirical evidence has been produced, and which Lenski can repeat at will in his laboratory under controlled conditions:

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

The existence of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, possessing the exact same level of genetic degradation (a means of dating them), in the isomorphically selfsame spots in the genomes of various species, such as humans and great apes, can be tested and retested and checked and rechecked and verified and reverified at will, by reference to the species fully sequenced genomes. And the presence of these identica,, identically placed, identically degraded artifactual retroviral DNA sequences in different species is statistically inexplicable in the absence of common ancestry, which conclusively demonstrates evolutionary divergence and speciation.

And the basic mechanisms (random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection) have been known and observed for some time, as have their physical instantiations - various ecological niche environments, and deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA).

648 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:06:00am

re: #94 stretch

if you believe in the 'big bang', then you could claim that one as being "supernatural"

Umm...you don't have to believe in the Big Bang; you can peruse the red-shift coefficient of the echo background radiation that the Big Bang left behind, and come to know not only that it happened, but also when it happened, within relatively close measurement paramaters (13.73 ± 0.12 billion years ago).

649 Rustler  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:12:27am

re: #648 Salamantis Do you subsribe to the singular bing bang or repeating big bang theory Sal?

650 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:13:54am

re: #103 stretch

fine, show one experiment that produces life, or one that shows a species changing into another species, and I'll concede

An experiment that produces life would not satisfy you, because you would still claim that it was intelligently designed, even if the only design was to simulate the terrestrial conditions that obtained when life first arose more than 3 1/2 billion years ago. And some of Lenski's e coli mutated into a bacterium form that has a noticeably different cell covering, and can metabolize citric acid. The inability to do so has long been a species marker for e coli. If the same kinda mutation were to happen to people, it would be as if some of us were born with blue scaly skin, and the ability to drink stychnine, run a marathon on the energy we derived from it, and piss arsenic.

651 Rustler  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:14:08am

re: #649 Rustler
I.E. the big bang that created are universe is the first an likely only such event that will occur or that our big bang may not be the other and the bang and spread cycle is cyclical and the universe will eventually collapse and rebang?

652 Rustler  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:15:30am

re: #650 Salamantis Like the Cyanide producing pink Dragon millipede from the Mekong Delta sweats cyanide.

653 Sharmuta  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:18:35am

re: #650 Salamantis

An experiment that produces life would not satisfy you, because you would still claim that it was intelligently designed, even if the only design was to simulate the terrestrial conditions that obtained when life first arose more than 3 1/2 billion years ago.

Indeed- they would move the goal post and insist, like the joke goes, that scientists create their own dirt.

Personally- I won't "believe" in the Big Bang until a scientist reproduces one. /////

654 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:20:23am

re: #649 Rustler

Do you subsribe to the singular bing bang or repeating big bang theory Sal?

The jury's still out; we have to check to see whether there's sufficient dark matter out there to provide the gravitational attraction necessary for Big Crunches to happen, and we haven't been able to ascertain this one way or another yet. I do have an aesthetic fondness, though, for the idea of a Universe that cycles through a Big Bang and a Big Crunch every 40 billion years or so, like a cosmic beating heart.

I once wrote a poem about the idea:

Universe

(1) Cosmos

The Cosmic Heart beats slowly.
Plenitude pulses point to point
All in All, singular wonder
Self contained, containing
Ending, none remaining, then
Begin again, forever
Finitude of everythings
Boundless curv-ed compass
Circumscribing Isness
From the fiery atom egg
Endlessly reborn.

(2) Consciousness

Capillary sapience fills Being
With Meaning. Our awareness the
Central mirror paradox
Part enfolding All, the
Heart's Mind and Senses
Cosmic Self-Reflection
Flowing toward a jelling Soul.

655 Rustler  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:20:29am

re: #653 Sharmuta
///Come to my bedroom some night.


Smack there got myself no need to get up Sharm.

656 Rustler  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:21:49am

re: #654 Salamantis
Yeah no conclusive evidence yet on it but I tend to believe most natural events are Cyclical so believe in the bang and crunch myself.

657 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:29:44am

re: #162 badger1970

OK, I'm confused. What part of creationism theory should I hate? The Islamic one, the Christian evangelistic one, the Intelligent design one or do I just support that evolutionist one that states man is no more special than a monkey scratching its butt with Uncle Bobo and Aunt Peanut jumping on Samsonite luggage? /s

OT, what's the best way to ignore 1/20/09?

It isn't a matter of loving or hating; it's a matter of either accepting tankerloads of empirical evidence, or rejecting it in favor of devoutly desired dogmatic myth. If you can swing the latter, you'll have no problem believing that 1/20/09 inaugurates 4 years of the presidency of John McCain.

658 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:53:41am

re: #272 Spar Kling

Controversies such as whether ID is science or philosophy, whether evolution has serious flaws or not, or whether the scientific consensus on global warming is beginning to crack, should never be determined by court rulings.

We've been over this before. Judge Jones had to decide whether or not ID was science or religion before he could rule on whether it could be taught in public hoigh school science class. He applied strict evaluational criteria to the question, and concluded that ID was undoubtedly religion masquerading as science.

A few months ago, I read the cross-examination of Dr. Scott Minnich from the Dover transcripts. Dr. Minnich is an expert on bacterial flagellum, but in my opinion, the opposing lawyer tore him apart using yes-or-no tactics. But this was an exercise in semantics not science, and proved nothing scientific, merely that a good lawyer can yes-no a college professor into a corner. I also believe that the ad hominem attacks against Dr. Behe are unfitting for true scientists.

What was devastating to the ID 'case' was Ken Miller's eloquent explanation as to why none of the purported examples of 'irreducable complexity' proffered by Mike Behe actually were.

I do think courts can and should decide whether textbooks used in public schools promotes a religious or political position, and I'm opposed to any indoctrination in textbooks or in classrooms. Despite the media circus, the Dover court did that, protecting students from a lousy textbook.

Yes it did.

But, here's the question. Should scientific uncertainties and controversies be mentioned in classrooms or should Science be presented as Definitive and Final? Dr. Eugenie Scott is for the Definitive and Final.

Fake tempests trumped up by bitching, whining and moaning Disco Dewde shills should not count as 'uncertainties and controversies':

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

I believe that it is wrong to teach science as a series of incontrovertible "facts" and that this approach misleads, underestimates, and demotivates students. When I was in high school, it was a observed "fact" that Jupiter had 12 moons and Saturn had 10, and it was a "fact" that hydra sometimes suffered from "depression" (yes, that's what the literature said), and that continental drift was a ludicrous idea of Velechovsky's.

But evolutionary theory is as strongly anchored in the empirical evidence as is atomic theory or the theory of gravitation. For 150 years, it has been the case that the path to scientific fame and fortune has led through its empirical disproof, and although many have mightily tried, that brass ring remains ungrasped.

Instead, Science should be taught as a logical method of investigation, and that scientific theories are constantly adjusted, sometimes overthrown, as new information or ideas come to light. I believe that this type of honesty excites and challenges students to pursue a scientific education and career, and is a very good thing. But indoctrination in the name of Science is still indoctrination regardless of the source.

-sk

Umm...some scientific theories come and go; others, such as the Copernican model of the Solar system, the Newtonian laws of motion applying both terrestrially and celestially (which were merely subsumed as special cases by Einsteinian relativity, not falsified by it), and the Darwinian/Mendelian/Watson & Crick -ian evolution of species via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection, come and stay.

When one is speaking of teaching kids the empirical knowledge we have, it is not characterizeable as indoctrination, but as instruction. Indoctrination is what religions do, to instill their dogmas in the young (precisely what the Disco Institute strives to force on our public schools).

659 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:56:29am

re: #283 Kosh's Shadow

That is what Spinoza believed. He was excommunicated from Judaism for it. Einstein also believed in a G-d that created the universe but didn't control what happened later, but he wasn't excommunicated.
In Judaism, the belief is G-d does control what occurs, but that does not have to be done by violating physical laws. All He has to do is control how quantum mechanical systems "collapse" into single states.

Untrue about Einstein:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

660 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:14:22am

re: #377 Spar Kling

We've been through this, Charles, and it's not true. I've never claimed that my opinions are more valuable that those of others. My degree is in a scientific area, but I've chosen not to go into detail to maintain my privacy.

Unless you lied to me, you make cheese for a living. Hardly on the cutting edge of paleontology, or comparative genetics.

What I originally claimed was that the peer review process, while necessary, is flawed--much of the following information was actually published in Nature, hardly a creationist rag:
------------
re: #595 jaunte
Can you point us to any of the papers you think have been undeservedly excluded from broad scientific scrutiny?
Well, if you insist, here are a couple:
Nature rejected paper on the weak interaction theory by Enrico Fermi
Nature rejected paper on Cerenkov Radiation by Pavel Cerenkov
Nature rejected paper on photosynthesis by Johan Deisenhofer, et al
Nature initially rejected paper on black hole radiation by Stephen Hawking
Oh, and for some reason Watson and Crick never submitted their landmark paper on DNA to peer review. Go figure.
Please understand that I'm not against peer review, but it's very well understood in the scientific community that the peer review process, while filtering out a great deal of baloney, is also subject to a great deal of prejudice. Just ask several college professors and please let us know if I'm wrong.
Oh yeah, and Ewen and Pusztai's paper on the effects of feeding genetically modified potatoes to rats? All six of the Royal Society's reviewers judged it flawed, while five out of six reviewers for The Lancet gave it favorable reviews.

And how many of those papers were about creationism or intelligent design? Zip. Zilch. Nada.

In response to demands that I reference an ID paper, I posted this:

In August 2004, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer's paper titled, "The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories," was published in the Biological Society of Washington (volume 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239). The Proceedings is a peer-reviewed biology journal published at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C. Dr. Meyer is affiliated with the Discovery Institute, regularly vilified by the Darwinist scientific community and elsewhere including some well-known blogs.
I know that you violently disagree with my skepticism about evolution. This does not make me all the things you regularly call me.

-sk

And here is what you need to know about the author of that paper, and about the deceptions and machinations surrounding its publication:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

661 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:20:47am

re: #421 stretch

not following that - and I havn't visited the DI site yet, but from what all I read hear, they must be doing some interesting work

They don't do any scientific work at all; no empirical investagations, no experimental studies, nothing. All they do is impotently rhetorically snipe at evolutionary theory without offering any feasible alternative whatsoever. Even two of their board members, Michael Medved and George Gilder, admitted that they were 'content-free.'

662 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:23:33am

re: #425 stretch

i left to watch a movie with my wife (the "notebook" - quite good). So what experiment was it that showed creatures changing from one species into another. They must be all over the net by now with all this research, I just can't seem to find one.

See my #645, 647, and 650. And check out Lenski's e coli:

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

663 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:27:10am

re: #426 stretch

stats are wrong - i had posted links on Ota Benga, the African Pygmy put on display at a zoo by evolutionuts

No, I'm pretty sure that the pygmy was put on display by PT Barnum type sideshow barkers after the almighty dollar from the entrance fees such a spectacle would draw. And your karma is precisely where it belongs, considering the content of your posts here.

664 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:30:08am

re: #440 stretch

okay - though i'm sticking with topic, and does the "particularly offensive" part include dismissing claims by evolutionists?

You can dismiss or ignore reams of empirical evidence that has accumulated of the the past 150 years as you wish, but the sky doesn't disappear when an ostrich sticks it's head into a meerkat hole.

665 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:34:47am

re: #450 stretch

Question for you.

I take it you believe in the Creator.
which one are you refering too?
Do you believe in his Creation?
not following you; do you mean like if we are really here or not?
Do you believe what His Creation tells us?
what is His Creation telling us specifically?
So it should like you would say yes to 1&2 but no to 3.
Why would you discount what God's own creation tells us?
you lost me

God's Creation would be the universe generally and the earth specifically. We can read certain laws and regularities from that Book of Nature by means of a plethora of mutually corroborating empirical evidence concerning it. To deny those laws and regularities, or to say that they do not logically entail what they clearly do (such as common ancestors and an ancient universe), would be, for the believer, tantamount to denying either the honesty or the rationality of God.

666 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:36:52am

re: #455 jcm

Thank you. You answer is sufficient.

It is sufficient to prove the answerer to be woefully deficient...;~)

667 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:38:27am

re: #459 stretch

how does that follow from GAZE? What does "put paid" mean?

It means you haven't logically or empirically refuted or discredited jack fecus.

668 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:41:03am

Sala -- stretch has you really going huh?
Good morning --- did you even sleep last night?

669 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:45:02am

re: #468 stretch

i've been reading through the numerous comments on "downdings", "karma" intermixed with the spicy language, speculations regarding my family lineages and a few "GAZE"'s. So you like to chase off anyone who dares to disagree?

I have to say that this stuff here looks a bit cultish.

No, a shining sterling example of a cult is those folks who strive force the legislation of official imprimatur to religiously indoctrinate other peoles' kids into their pet sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science classes. And that is not merely a cult, but a religiously imperialistic cult, too. As are the islamofascists and their madrassas. And the Disco Institute and the Harun Yahya Islamocreationists are hooked up, with their toes under the same set of sheets.

670 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:46:33am

re: #668 Fearless Fred

Sala -- stretch has you really going huh?
Good morning --- did you even sleep last night?

I got up early, to find out I had missed out on the previous evening's thread, so now I'm going through it and replying to what I want to reply to.

671 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:55:28am

re: #476 stretch

What's been seen in a laboratory? With all the empirical evidence claimed on this blog; still no testable experiments showing naturalistic origins for life, or for species evolving one to another.

It seems so convenient for evolutionists to basically say "just give us one living cell, and we'll take it from there".

Origins of life, as has been amply and abundantly explained to you eleventy-twelve times, is a different field from evolutionary theory. One has to do with the genesis of life; the other has to do with what happens when populations of organisms with high but imperfect copying fidelity are confronted with a surrounding environment rife with particular challenges, dangers, resources, and opportunities. And what happens is evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

And Lenski's e coli demonstrate microbial evolution; for you to observe the evolution of mammalians would require you to live for a helluva lot longer than humans do. But that evolution left conclusive empirical evidence behind, in the form of fossils, and in the form of both DNA generally, and artifactual retroviral DNA sequences particularly.

I guess you're the kinda fella who would suppose that fossil seashells grew and died on mountaintops or someone carried them up there, simply because you weren't around to see the tectonic plate shifts cause the mountains to rise from ancient seabeds...

672 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:57:24am

re: #670 Salamantis

I got up early, to find out I had missed out on the previous evening's thread, so now I'm going through it and replying to what I want to reply to.

Okay.
Hey, did you ever see the big Buckley hosted evolution vs creationism debate on Firing Line?

673 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:59:30am

re: #480 stretch

"the study of" is the one that comes to mind

[Link: www.merriam-webster.com...]

Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: ˈsī-ən(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; perhaps akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split — more at shed
Date: 14th century
1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b: something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4: a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws

[Link: www.merriam-webster.com...]

Main Entry: natural science
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: any of the sciences (as physics, chemistry, or biology) that deal with matter, energy, and their interrelations and transformations or with objectively measurable phenomena
— natural scientist noun

674 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:01:25am

Intelligent Design/Evolution Debate (1 of 8)

Youtube Video

It's pretty fun ... I can't watch it for a few more days ... gotta buy a new sound card for this laptop.
675 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:11:24am

re: #672 Fearless Fred

Okay.
Hey, did you ever see the big Buckley hosted evolution vs creationism debate on Firing Line?

[Link: www.arn.org...]

Nope, but I read about it. It matters not, regardless of whether either side won a rhetorical debate, or whether neither side did. The empirical evidence is what it is. And facts are stubborn things. One of the supposed 'authorities' on the creationist side was Philip Johnson, Disco Institute bigwig and author of the infamous Wedge strategy. Two others were senior Disco Institute fellows: Michale Behe, whose 'irreducable complexity' canard was ginsu-ed by Ken Miller at the Dover trial, and David Berlinski, who refused to even show.

[Link: www.screaming-penguin.com...]

[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

676 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:18:12am

re: #486 sattv4u2

sorry to play devils advocate here, but have they stopped calling it Darwins "THEORY" of eveolution?

And again, just a few days after the last time it appeared, the creationist 'only a theory' canard rears its ugly head. Since it was decapitated by me only recently, I can only conclude that the bastard's a hydra.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

677 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:19:46am

Buckley's concern about the "tendency to "imperialize" the issue by not allowing creationist thought into the schools" is what resonates somewhat with me.

678 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:24:37am

re: #502 stretch

If a physical phenomenon has been "discovered", then it would be presumed to have a naturalistic explanation. I think that you have posed an illogical question.

Nope, he didn't. Actually, no explanation whatsoever is presumed. Empirical scientists do not impose any pet templates upon unwilling phenomena, as do dogmatic religionists; they allow the model to arise from the empirical evidence itself and its logical consequences and ramifications.

The theory of evolution must stand on its own, on its purely naturalistic foundation, whether you happen to have an alternative that you are philosophically predisposed against or not.

And, as I have previously remarked, that foundation is as solid, valid and sound as Gibraltar:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

679 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:26:34am

re: #677 Fearless Fred

Buckley's concern about the "tendency to "imperialize" the issue by not allowing creationist thought into the schools" is what resonates somewhat with me.

It is not imperialism not to allow the empirically untestable assertions of religious dogma into public high school science classes, any more than it is imperialism not to allow astrology or alchemy there.

680 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:35:54am

re: #511 stretch

so the scientific method requires the analysis of testable and repeatable experimental observations. There are none showing a naturalistic origin for life, or for a creature of any species spontaneously evolving into another species. so the scientific method debunks evolution, wouldn't you agree?

No, evolution, once again, is not about the beginning of life, but what happens to it once it's here, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you before, by me, just as Lenski's e coli have been pointed out, and the temporal difficulty with directly observing major speciation, in concert with the overwhelming genetic and paleontological empirical evidence for it:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I can repost my refutations as often as you can repost your same old refuted objections.

681 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:40:47am

re: #515 stretch

yes, i have seen all of those examples, and guess what? There were no claims that the observations had identified a new species. E-coli evolved to E-coli. What of it?

You demand to stand in a laboratory and see a fish change into a giraffe before your very eyes. That would not be evidence of evolution; that would be evidence of God sticking His Finger into the world.

The Lenski e coli evolved an ability the absence of which was long accepted as a defining characteristic of the species. It is as if a defining characteristic of humans is that we can't fly unassisted by technology, then some folks just start soaring around.

682 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:49:24am

re: #552 Jimmah

footage of stretch making his dignified exit from the thread

More like this:

Youtube Video


683 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:56:33am

re: #636 Zola

I've been reading LGF for some time now but rarely post. I've noticed more and more that all the site seems to focus on are the two broad topics of Islam and Evolution. Also, as a Christian, I will say that while I find much of what is said concerning my faith in Christ to be demeaning and quite hurtful at times, there are occasional opinions that cause me to search deeper into my own beliefs and understanding of the issues. However, when I tell others that I frequent this site called LGF, and when they ask what it's about, I'm often at a loss for words to best describe the average blogger who posts here. While many seem to lean Republican in their politics, i.e. Obama and Democrats don't seem to be favored too highly, at the same time I sense a strong anti-faith, anti-supernatural consensus. If you were trying to describe to someone what this blog is supposed to be about in a few sentences, what would you say?

Anto-idiotarian, without fear or favor granted to any particular species of idiot.

684 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:59:20am

re: #638 Sharmuta

But GAZE allows his creationist nonsense to go un-refuted. In the case of creationist/ID trolls, facts are harder for them to deal with than silence. In fact- giving them silence is probably what they'd like.

Quite simply, I refuse to allow my silence in the face of asserted absurdities to be misconstrued as assent. I would not want casual visitors to form that mistaken opinion of this place.

685 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 7:13:25am

re: #636 Zola

. . . at the same time I sense a strong anti-faith, anti-supernatural consensus. If you were trying to describe to someone what this blog is supposed to be about in a few sentences, what would you say?

re: #683 Salamantis

Anto-idiotarian, without fear or favor granted to any particular species of idiot.

I would add to your response that the sense Zola has that LGF as a whole has an "anti-faith consensus" is absolutely wrong.

There are those here who have no faith, and those who have strong faith, and we discuss and argue, agree and disagree, but that does not mean that LGF has an "anti-faith" consensus.

686 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:08:15am

re: #685 reine.de.tout

Hello reine, Happy New Year.

I've been spying while trying to get other things done, but I thought that I would add, as one of those typically lumped in the "no faith" category, that having no faith in a sentient god, does not mean one has no faith in anything.

For example, in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary, I have faith that humans are fundamentally ethical and moral beings. Some of those who object to a lack of faith in a supreme being seem to think the contrary of people and that it is only the risk of punishment that keeps them, personally, from doing bad bad things.

I think that is sad.

687 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:41:10am

re: #377 Spar Kling

We've been through this, Charles, and it's not true. I've never claimed that my opinions are more valuable that those of others. My degree is in a scientific area, but I've chosen not to go into detail to maintain my privacy.

This is what you wrote:

Perhaps what rankles Charles and some other people who post here is that I have a scientific degree, I used to believe in the theory evolution, but now I believe that it's seriously flawed.

So yes, you absolutely did try to claim your opinions are more valuable. You bragged about having a 'scientific degree,' to give some false authority to your ludicrous claims about evolution and science. You're now dodging the issue because you're afraid that someone with real expertise in whatever field you might pick out of your hat would show up and ask you questions you couldn't answer.

As for your false claims about peer-reviewed articles, you picked out several articles that have NOTHING to do with intelligent design, and one that does -- and the one that does deal with ID you are distorting and lying about, as you have done on at least four occasions. You just keep coming back and lying again.

Smithsonian controversy:

Sternberg claims that he was "targeted for retaliation and harassment" and subject to efforts to remove him from the museum in retaliation for his views in support of creationism. He continues to cite a letter by the United States Office of Special Counsel as supporting his version of events,[29] despite the Office of Special Counsel ultimately dismissing his claim. Pim Van Meurs and other critics observed that the Office of Special Counsel lacked jurisdiction over the matter and so his claim was unlikely to proceed,[30] and that even though it made no official findings or conclusions, the response from the Office of Special Counsel provided Sternberg and the Discovery Institute putative evidence and talking points supporting their claim that the scientific community discriminates against intelligent design proponents.[31][32] In a Wall Street Journal op-ed article, Discovery Institute Senior Fellow David Klinghoffer[33] portrayed Sternberg as a martyr and victim of discrimination,[34] a tactic used often by design proponents.[35]

In response, Sternberg's supervisor at the Smithsonian, Jonathan Coddington, responded publicly disputing Sternberg's and Klinghoffer's depiction of events. Coddington states that Sternberg was never dismissed, nor was he a paid employee, and that he was never the target of discrimination, and remained serving at the museum up to that time.[25]

In August, 2005 the Office of Special Counsel dropped Sternberg's religious discrimination complaint against the Smithsonian Institution. It was determined that as an unpaid research associate at the Smithsonian, Sternberg was not actually an employee, and thus the Office of Special Counsel had no jurisdiction.

688 Rev  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:55:24am

Well, they themselves DO show a tendency to avoid evolution and natural selection. Now if they would just wake up and smell the new roses. It's like they don't even realize that their very NAME is a lie--they don't want Discovery, they want the rest of the world to admit that the earth is flat.

689 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:26:39am

re: #688 Rev

Well, they themselves DO show a tendency to avoid evolution and natural selection. Now if they would just wake up and smell the new roses. It's like they don't even realize that their very NAME is a lie--they don't want Discovery, they want the rest of the world to admit that the earth is flat.

True enough. The Discovery Institute hasn't actually discovered anything, nor has the Institute for Creation Research ever researched anything.

But they both must think that the word "Institute" in their titles sounds authoritative, or even institutional, just like they count on Intelligent Design sounding intellectual...;~)

690 Aye Pod  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:26:51am

I'm still dying to hear from Spar Kling about the 'depressed' hydra that he cites in his attempt to pour scorn on scientific literature. I'll ask him about it again next time he shows up.

691 Aye Pod  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:31:10am

re: #689 Salamantis

They haven't even got a theory, never mind a clue. It's all just one big puffed up ball of nothing.

692 Yashmak  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:33:41am

re: #66 stretch

I should also add that I think the DI's approach of trying to introduce an alternative to humanism in the public schools is pointless. The only problem with public school is that it is still free for those who could afford to pay their own way. Once all the freeloaders are kicked out, or required to pay their own way, they will pay much more attention to what their kids are "learning".

That's absolutely nonsensical. Freeloaders? What? Those who can afford to pay their own way already DO pay their own way. It's called taxation, and it's what pays for out public schools. The only folks who actually have grounds for complaint on that score are those who pay taxes into the schools but never have kids who attend said schools. Even then, if they themselves attended public schools, one could make the argument that they should pay into the system.

If there are 'freeloaders' in public schools, they are those who have children in the schools but are not paying taxes (because of low income or whatever other reason) into the system to support those schools.

693 Aye Pod  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:34:16am

re: #638 Sharmuta

But GAZE allows his creationist nonsense to go un-refuted. In the case of creationist/ID trolls, facts are harder for them to deal with than silence. In fact- giving them silence is probably what they'd like.

It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it...

Youtube Video
694 Yashmak  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:37:29am

re: #690 Jimmah

I'm still dying to hear from Spar Kling about the 'depressed' hydra that he cites in his attempt to pour scorn on scientific literature. I'll ask him about it again next time he shows up.

Down side is, you'll probably have to wade through all the same regurgitated nonsense and distortion he keeps recycling first.

695 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:41:05am

mufsidoon

Karma: 0
Registered since: Apr 7, 2008 at 6:27 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 0
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Come out, come out, wherever you are, li'l stealth downdinger...;~)

696 Aye Pod  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:51:06am

re: #694 Yashmak

I'm sure he's just made yet another elementary error. A google search reveals that 'depression' is discussed in scientific literature regarding the hydra but only as a physiological state, not as a psychological one as his post mockingly implied.

697 mcmeador  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 10:29:17am

Since when do pandas lack credibility? They're my next most trusted source of information after grizzlies.

698 Salamantis  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 10:46:31am

re: #697 mcmeador

Since when do pandas lack credibility? They're my next most trusted source of information after grizzlies.

Yeah, that panda wrist bone that evolved into a pseudothumb really informs one about evolutionary spandrels and evolving from within the context of already present genetic and configurational baselines.

699 Yashmak  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:06:13pm

re: #695 Salamantis

Come out, come out, wherever you are, li'l stealth downdinger...;~)

Heh. That's just funny (mufsidoon). . .in a sad kinda cowardly way.

700 SFGoth  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:57:08pm

re: #695 Salamantis

mufsidoon

Karma: 0
Registered since: Apr 7, 2008 at 6:27 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 0

Come out, come out, wherever you are, li'l stealth downdinger...;~)

I'm assuming mufsidoon is an anagram for nood is fun.

701 Spar Kling  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:08:07pm

re: #354 Jimmah

Please, do expand on this for us, spar kling.

Ok. This is actually pretty interesting.

Many years ago in my high school biology class, I somehow talked my teacher into getting some hydra. I got some petri dishes and followed the instructions in the pamphlet that came with them. The truth was that I thought it would be cool to have some tiny monsters.

But the hydra showed no interest the daphnia I put in, and over the next few days started shrinking in size, turning into blobs that eventually vanished. So, I read up on them, but I was skeptical and I didn't believe the description of "depression." My idea was that they were starving to death, and that hydra normally fed on something else, maybe protozoa. Also, I wanted to observe them in a more natural environment.

So, to test my hypothesis, I got a large glass jug, maybe about 30 cm/12 inches across and cut the top off (scribed it and used a hot wire to crack it off). I filled it with pond water (no chemicals, lots of protozoa), added Elodea and some daphnia (just in case). I begged another order of several hydra from my teacher and stocked the tank. These were not green hydra (no Chlorella symbiosis).

Within weeks there were dozens, then hundreds of hydra in the tank (I think I stopped keeping records at 100). What astounded me was their length. While their bodies were less than 1 cm long, their tentacles stretched completely across the tank, criss-crossing the tank like thin spider webs!

During that time, I noticed that the hydra reacted negatively when a daphnia ran into their tentacles! I think during the entire rest of the year, I only saw one or two daphnia ensnared.

The hydra continued to thrive, and so did the Biology department--the teacher traded hydra all over the local high school districts for all sorts of lab equipment! He might have forgotten to mention hydra “depression” and we even got repeat orders.

Unfortunately, I never followed up. It would have been interesting to use a dissection microscope to observe what, if anything, was on the tentacles.

Maybe someone reading this can . . . or has already!

-sk

702 Lynn B.  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:33:20pm

re: #701 Spar Kling

Now that is interesting. In fact, I'll bet it was in all the papers.

Hey. Good thing for your secret identity there wasn't an internet back then to, you know, fact check all that BS.

Or would you care to offer some evidence?

/thought not

703 Claire  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:46:53pm

re: #701 Spar Kling

So, I read up on them, but I was skeptical and I didn't believe the description of "depression."

I didn't know what a hydra was, so I googled. I hope in high school, you weren't under the impression that your poor hydra were merely "sad", lol.

The phenomenon of depression, in which there is a shortening and gradual loss of tentacles and column from the distal end proximally, is of common occurrence in hydras and probably represents a lowered metabolic state. It is induced by rich feeding, high temperature, sensescence, fouling of the culture water, lack of oxygen, transfer to clean fresh water. Recovery may be spontaneous or may by induced.

704 Spar Kling  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:13:48pm

re: #635 Alberta Oil Peon

Boy, you must have gone to a pretty crappy high school. I seem to remember being taught that Jupiter had 12 strong>known moons, and Saturn had 10 known
moons.

Maybe Junior High or before. Yes, of course that would have been better. And to tantalize students with the challenges of retrograde orbits, the formation of Earth's moon, and so on. All kinds of things to discover!

I'd get depressed, too, if I had snakes for hair!

Hah! Ironically, in freshwater hydra the medusa stage is said to be missing. It makes one wonder why . . .

Continental drift wasn't the brainchild of Velikovsky. It was first proposed by one Alfred Wegener in 1915. What his theory lacked was a mechanism for moving the continents around, so it was pretty much disregarded until the 1950s, when much compelling evidence commenced to be found.

I didn't know that, but I had heard that he was considered a sensationalist journalist who popularized fringe theories. It must have been galling that one of the ideas he touted turned out to be right (for all the wrong reasons). According to Wikipedia

Nowadays it is universally supported; but even in 1977 a textbook could write the relatively weak: "a poll of geologists now would probably show a substantial majority who favor the idea of drift" and devote a section to a serious consideration of the objections to the theory.

Seems like some geologists also move at tectonic speeds. I wonder whether Velikovsky was part of the reason for this slowness in the face of strong scientific evidence.

The Skeptic's Dictionary had this to say about Velikovsky: "In
short, like the creationists in their arguments against evolution, he
starts with the assumption that the Bible is a foundation and guide for
scientific truth." Even as far back as the 1950's, the scientific
community was laughing at that joker.

In high school, somebody gave me a couple of his books to read. I don't remember anything about creationism, but I do remember that he had some hokum about "Mu." His worlds in collision theory about orbital capture made sense to me at the time as did continental drift--the shapes of the continents seemed to fit together more easily than was likely.

-sk

705 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:24:38pm

The shameless liar is back again to spread more creationist hooey, I see.

706 Spar Kling  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:33:39pm

re: #703 Claire

I didn't know what a hydra was, so I googled. I hope in high school, you weren't under the impression that your poor hydra were merely "sad", lol.

Haha, no. But, notice that the description of "depression" (now where could that scientific term have come from?) really doesn't answer anything. There's the big word "probably" followed by a list of things that could kill a horse in large enough quantities. Especially that deadly stuff, senescence.

Thanks for the humor. :-)

-sk

707 Joan  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:51:31pm

re: #705 Charles
On the other hand, some really smart people can ponder the imponderables with literate, reasoned, productive, interesting, respectful discussion and disagreement. Looky here:
href="[Link: www.templeton.org...]>Your text to link...

708 Joan  Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:53:25pm

re: #707 Joan

okay, so, I never said I was one of the smart people; I can't keep from screwing up the links; bear with me, I'll get it eventually

709 Yashmak  Tue, Jan 6, 2009 7:14:41am

Took me a few tries before I got it right too, Joan.

710 Victory Gin For All  Wed, Jan 7, 2009 1:20:23pm

I finally got around to watching Ben Stein's Expelled movie.

What stood out to me was how similarly global warming skeptics and evolution skeptics are treated by their repective scientific communities.

I know that man-made global warming caused by CO2 emissions leading to world-wide catastrophy is a steaming pile of bullshit, but it is supposedly the "consensus view." The science is settled. It's no longer open for debate.

When I hear these same arguments and protestations coming from the evolution camp, I raise an eyebrow.

711 Victory Gin For All  Wed, Jan 7, 2009 3:44:07pm

re: #705 Charles

The shameless liar is back again to spread more creationist hooey, I see.

Charles,
It would be interesting if you went back on Dennis Prager's show to discuss evolution/ID (his show is how I learned about your website). I think he accepts what scientists have to say about the age of the Earth and evolutionary theory, but he, being a religious jew, also accepts the idea of a deity. It would be a fascinating hour.

If it ever happens, let us know because I'll take that day off work so I can call in (it's harder to get on his show than Boortz or Limbaugh in my experience).

712 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 12:40:39am

re: #710 Victory Gin For All

I finally got around to watching Ben Stein's Expelled movie.

What stood out to me was how similarly global warming skeptics and evolution skeptics are treated by their repective scientific communities.

I know that man-made global warming caused by CO2 emissions leading to world-wide catastrophy is a steaming pile of bullshit, but it is supposedly the "consensus view." The science is settled. It's no longer open for debate.

When I hear these same arguments and protestations coming from the evolution camp, I raise an eyebrow.

The difference is that anthropogenic global warming is bad science, while evolutionary theory is good science. The proof? Barely two decades after it was first proposed, research scientists are fleeing AGW in droves, because they are following the empirical evidence, which does not support it. In contrast, evolutionary theory has been around for a century and a half, and in that time, all of the vast swath of empirical evidence has supported it, and not one single whit of contradictory empirical evidence has been proffered.

Even the leftist sites are leaving AGW behind, and for good and sufficient empirical reasons:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

But IDers have produced no empirical reasons for anyone to abandon evolutionary theory; in fact, they produce no empirical science at all:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

Quite simple, any attempt whatsoever to smear evolutionary theory by equating it in any way with Anthropogenic Global Warming is either profoundly ignorant, profoundly dense, profoundly naive, or profoundly and malevolently dishonest.

713 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 12:47:08am

re: #711 Victory Gin For All

Charles,
It would be interesting if you went back on Dennis Prager's show to discuss evolution/ID (his show is how I learned about your website). I think he accepts what scientists have to say about the age of the Earth and evolutionary theory, but he, being a religious jew, also accepts the idea of a deity. It would be a fascinating hour.

If it ever happens, let us know because I'll take that day off work so I can call in (it's harder to get on his show than Boortz or Limbaugh in my experience).

What would be so fascinating about it? Evolutionary theory has nothing to say one way or the other about the presence or absence of a universe-creating deity. So what either Charles or Dennis Prager believe in that regard should have no bearing on their view of evolutionary theory.

Sorry, but, Disco Institute Wedge Stragegy talking points notwithstanding, evolutionary theory vs. creationism/ID remains about empirical science vs. empirically falsified religious dogma (Genesis Literalism) and about the presence vs. the absence of empirical evidence, and not about Bad Old Atheism vs. Good Old God.

714 Victory Gin For All  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 5:12:45am
Quite simple, any attempt whatsoever to smear evolutionary theory by equating it in any way with Anthropogenic Global Warming is either profoundly ignorant, profoundly dense, profoundly naive, or profoundly and malevolently dishonest.

Raising an eyebrow equals a "smear" of evolutionary theory?

Wow.

715 Victory Gin For All  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 5:23:34am

re: #713 Salamantis

What would be so fascinating about it?

Dennis Prager can make a show about garbage collection fascinating. Have you ever heard his show? Probably not.

Last time Charles was on Prager's show, it was a very interesting hour. Charles was a good guest.

716 Victory Gin For All  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 5:37:20am

re: #712 Salamantis


[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

This is great news, but I can't say I'm optimistic that our congress will pull its head out of its ass. It sees a way to gain an immense amount of control over us by regulating and taxing energy. I fully expect gas to be $7 or $8 a gallon and my electricity bill to double in the near future.

717 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 9:12:40am

re: #710 Victory Gin For All

I finally got around to watching Ben Stein's Expelled movie.

What stood out to me was how similarly global warming skeptics and evolution skeptics are treated by their repective scientific communities.

Ben Stein's movie is deeply dishonest. Every case of claimed "persecution" he makes has been shown to be either false or wildly exaggerated.

[Link: www.expelledexposed.com...]

It's a Michael Moore film for creationists.

718 Victory Gin For All  Thu, Jan 8, 2009 5:05:25pm

re: #717 Charles

Ben Stein's movie is deeply dishonest. Every case of claimed "persecution" he makes has been shown to be either false or wildly exaggerated.

[Link: www.expelledexposed.com...]

It's a Michael Moore film for creationists.

Thanks. I'll read it after the big game (although Utah has a claim to the national championship after they spanked my Crimson Tide so badly).


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