Louisiana BOE Adopts New Policy Favoring Creationism

Science • Views: 3,700

The next creationist shoe has dropped in Louisiana, where the State Board of Education adopted a policy aimed at introducing “intelligent design” creationism into science classes this week, taking advantage of the Discovery Institute-sponsored “academic freedom” bill signed into law by Governor Bobby Jindal: Louisiana Creates: New Pro-Intelligent Design Rules for Teachers.

Last year, Louisiana passed the Louisiana Science Education Act, a law that many scientists and educators said was a thinly veiled attempt to allow creationism and its variants into the science classroom. On Tuesday, the state’s Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted a policy that sharpens those fears, giving teachers license to use materials outside of the regular curriculum to teach “controversial” scientific theories including evolution, origins of life, and global warming. Backers of the law, including the Louisiana Family Forum, say it is intended to foster critical thinking in students. Opponents insist its only purpose is to provide a loophole for creationists to attack the teaching of evolution.

“We fully expect to see the Discovery Institute’s book, Explore Evolution, popping up in school districts across the state*,” says Barbara Forrest, a philosopher at Southeastern Louisiana University in Hammond. The Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank, is a proponent of Intelligent Design. In a statement on the institute’s Web site, its education analyst Casey Luskin hailed the new policy as a “victory for Louisiana students and teachers.” The policy will now be printed in the Louisiana Handbook for School Administrators, which public school officials use as a guide.

State education officials tasked with translating last year’s law into policy drafted a document that explicitly prohibits teachers from teaching intelligent design, but on 2 December, board members deferred a scheduled vote. Forrest says the advocates of the law used the delay to pressure education officials to remove that language and a disclaimer saying that religion should not be taught under the guise of critical thinking. On 13 January, the 11-member board unanimously approved a policy that contains no such caveats.

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602 comments
1 songbird  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:33:30pm

Explore both, let data rule.

2 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:34:04pm

Over/Under for the first meltdown on this thread?

3 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:34:26pm

Bobby Jindal may once have had a bright political future ...

4 Cathypop  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:34:27pm

Is their any intelligent life in Louisiana?

5 freedombilly  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:35:28pm

And the MSM keeps propping up Jindal so they can knock him down right when it counts.

6 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:35:32pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

Kinda with you.
I think creationism does NOT belong as the same sentence as science.
I would be OK with a course that confined itself to the theories of both subjects. That would be an elective class.

7 quickjustice  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:35:44pm

Are we descending into a new Dark Age? Opposing science with religion is a huge blunder, for many reasons.

8 Last Mohican  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:36:20pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

We did that. That's why we now teach science (i.e. evolution) in our science classes.

9 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:36:25pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

In order for that to happen, there would have to actually be some data supporting "intelligent design." There isn't. Not a single peer-reviewed paper, not a single coherent scientific theory or even hypothesis. Not an iota of empirical evidence.

ID is a fraud, intended to promote an extreme religious agenda.

10 doppelganglander  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:37:35pm

Aw, jeez, not this shit again?

/facepalm

11 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:38:47pm

re: #9 Charles

In order for that to happen, there would have to actually be some data supporting "intelligent design." There isn't. Not a single peer-reviewed paper, not a single coherent scientific theory or even hypothesis. ID is a fraud, intended to promote an extreme religious agenda.

(1) I reported myself. Is there anything to that e-mail?
(2) what's your opinion on my #6?
(3) Please don't make me cry.

12 songbird  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:38:47pm

re: #9 Charles

In order for that to happen, there would have to actually be some data supporting "intelligent design." There isn't. Not a single peer-reviewed paper, not a single coherent scientific theory or even hypothesis. ID is a fraud, intended to promote an extreme religious agenda.

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

13 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:39:32pm

Hey, I waited all week to post this, just so people wouldn't pop up after 3 comments in four years and call me "obsessed."

/they will anyway

14 Lincolntf  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:39:34pm

Since it's being bundled with Global Warming (which is already taught as science everywhere) then hopefully people will cast a skeptical eye on both.

15 J.S.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:39:48pm

Maybe the science teachers will fight this...(I'm assuming it will be headed for the courts...)

16 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:40:26pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

The data does rule. That's why ID does not belong in a science classroom.

17 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:40:56pm

re: #4 Cathypop

Is their any intelligent life in Louisiana?

Well, there are a few of us. . .

18 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:41:25pm

re: #13 Charles

Hey, I waited all week to post this, just so people wouldn't pop up after 3 comments in four years and call me "obsessed."

/they will anyway

Your restraint amazed me, too! Upding!

19 freedombilly  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:41:48pm

I up-ding Charles so many times on these ID threads I feel like a real ass kisser. But on this subject he hits the nail right on the head every time. So up-ding it is.

20 Perfectsense  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:42:09pm

How rational do you think people are who live below sea level?

21 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:42:25pm

re: #13 Charles

Hey, I waited all week to post this, just so people wouldn't pop up after 3 comments in four years and call me "obsessed."

/they will anyway

Was wondering about that, been kinda jones'n for an ID/Evo thread.

22 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:42:44pm

re: #3 Bobibutu

Bobby Jindal may once have had a bright political future ...

Had lunch Thursday with some fellow retirees, and this was one of the topics under discussion.

How embarrassing this is for my state!

I think we pretty much agreed Jindal is not going any further politically than where he is right now.

23 Cathypop  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:42:45pm

re: #17 reine.de.tout

Well, there are a few of us. . .

Hang in there

24 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:43:10pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

Trying to compare or equate scientifically verified and validated data with a belief system is not logical, does not work and is a fraud.

25 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:43:10pm

re: #20 Perfectsense

How rational do you think people are who live below sea level?

What? Huh?

26 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:43:12pm

You know, when I try to convince to my leftie friends that conservatives are not all one sandwich short of a picnic, this sort of story pops up. It makes it easy to wrongly paint the entire right as religious fanatics pushing for a US theocracy.

27 J.S.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:43:28pm

re: #12 songbird

Where's "the data" when you're using supernatural "explanations?" Supernaturalism explains nothing and is not "data."

28 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:44:05pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

So what you're saying is that the reams of science on Evolution are bunk because there is no science or evidence of ID. Ok.

29 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:44:57pm

re: #23 Cathypop

Hang in there

Ain't easy, with this sort of embarrassment . . .

30 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:45:16pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

Downding for using argument from ignorance.

31 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:45:41pm

re: #25 jwb7605

What? Huh?

He's talking about New Orleans (below sea level, always was, always will be)

32 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:45:50pm

re: #29 reine.de.tout

Ain't easy, with this sort of embarrassment . . .

James Carville is from Louisana, isn't he?
... just askin' ...

33 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:46:39pm

re: #32 jwb7605

James Carville is from Louisana, isn't he?
... just askin' ...

Yes, yes, please don't remind me . . .

34 Bloodnok  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:46:48pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

Come up with some data and we'll talk. In church.

35 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:47:23pm

re: #31 reine.de.tout

He's talking about New Orleans (below sea level, always was, always will be)

In that case, maybe he should include people on the San Andreas fault?
I live within the apparent blast range of the "Yellowstone Supervolcano".

Those aren't man made, I know, but it's still a matter of time.

36 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:48:07pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

You want science to explore and investigate the supernatural ?

37 summergurl  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:48:20pm

re: #33 reine.de.tout

re: #32 jwb7605


Yes, yes, please don't remind me . . .

It's not your fault Reine --

Just like Cynthis Crazy Eyes McKinney is not my cross to bear.

38 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:48:23pm

The Louisiana Family Forum is experimenting with the Dopeler effect.

39 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:48:51pm

re: #33 reine.de.tout

Yes, yes, please don't remind me . . .

na ne na ne boo boo! I think that's French expression, isn't it? :)

40 summergurl  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:49:42pm

Charles you sure know how to clear a room. Mighty quiet in here.

41 Elcid  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:49:58pm

Now all Louisiana has to do, is elevate Naw'lins. At least to sae level for Christ sakes.

42 Salem  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:50:21pm

Jindal is scum.

43 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:50:21pm

re: #38 jaunte

The Louisiana Family Forum is experimenting with the Dopeler effect.

LOL

44 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:06pm

re: #32 jwb7605

James Carville is from Louisana, isn't he?
... just askin' ...


Proof, man evolved from a copperhead...uh.......well, one man did.

45 Abu Bin Squid  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:07pm

I sure hope this isn't the FNDT.

46 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:10pm

The Discovery Institute has had years to come up with some research and findings and experiments ... you know, science? ... to support their claims, and so far they've spent millions doing nothing but writing press releases, holding conferences, and promoting these kinds of attempts to subvert the Constitution. They have produced no actual science at all.

47 freetoken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:11pm

re: #42 Salem

Jindal is scum.

That's a little harsh... I'd rather say he is compromised.

48 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:30pm

There is no data in support of the theory of intelligent design. Part of the reason for that is that there is no theory of intelligent design. All it consists of is a bunch of debunked objections to the theory of evolution. There is nothing remotely resembling a scientific theory in there.

49 Elcid  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:45pm

sae=Society of Automotive Engineers. sea=big body of water. Jesus!

50 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:46pm

re: #40 summergurl

Charles you sure know how to clear a room. Mighty quiet in here.

Don't worry, these threads always get hot and heavy as time goes on. Lots of heavy thinking and well thought out responses to go with the knee jerk catechisms that get spewed here. Figure the thread post volume is more logarithmic than linear...

51 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:51pm

re: #45 Abu Bin Squid

I sure hope this isn't the FNDT.

NICE Avatar!

52 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:51:59pm

re: #43 reine.de.tout

The Dopeler effect is the tendency for stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly. Trial attorneys use this to good effect: (see Philip Johnson, Discovery Institute, for examples).

53 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:52:00pm

And in geography, they can explore the flat earth. Or Narnia.

54 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:54:28pm

re: #26 avanti

You know, when I try to convince to my leftie friends that conservatives are not all one sandwich short of a picnic, this sort of story pops up. It makes it easy to wrongly paint the entire right as religious fanatics pushing for a US theocracy.

Apt demonstration of how many on the left are close minded and bigoted.

Anyone of them could come here on any of these threads and observe that many of us don't buy into any of that crap and vigorously fight it. They could do that. They chose not to and instead paint LGF as a hate site. And they aren't smart enough to appreciate the irony. If they did, they'd end up switching sides.

55 Abu Bin Squid  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:54:36pm

re: #51 jwb7605

Thanks, Shamelessly lifted from stoptheaclu site.

56 Salem  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:54:48pm

re: #47 freetoken

That's a little harsh... I'd rather say he is compromised.

That was harsh. I retract.

57 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:55:01pm

re: #19 freedombilly

I up-ding Charles so many times on these ID threads I feel like a real ass kisser. But on this subject he hits the nail right on the head every time. So up-ding it is.

I do too. I have learned a lot that I did not know from these posts. Because of these threads, I have started paying attention to the topic and to mentions of the Discovery Institute. It's interesting to see where the DI creeps in - they must have a pretty good PR. Charles is one of the few who I have seen addressing this issue. The posts on the Discovery Institute and islamic convergence has opened my eyes and has me concerned. Thanks Charles, for being persistent and getting this information out.

58 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:55:12pm

Excellent post on evolution and the stupid ID talking points:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

59 freetoken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:56:02pm

re: #48 Jimmah

Yes, Jimmah... but as we all know that is not the problem.

The problem is... they (those who approved this BOE decision) don't want to listen to you (us, or anybody who might want to reason with them.)

Not really listen. For political reasons, or perhaps because of well mannered politeness, the BOE might give you 5 minutes, maybe even 30 minutes, to argue your case, but in the end it won't matter.

The electorate of Louisiana wants their children to be instructed in the worldview that the electorate holds, even such worldview is in need of correction on some points, given all that has been learnt over several decades of observation and experimentation.

Such a fundamental truth... people don't want to hear what will not support their inner voice...

60 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:56:38pm

re: #42 Salem

Jindal is scum.

he believes in what he presumes to be right...he is not scum

61 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:56:41pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

The is no obtainable data for a metaphysical concept.

I am firmly, absolutely certain God exists, and that he created everything.

I can't prove it. I believe it.

Science is about data.
Faith is about belief.

It is mistake to conflate the things. Faith and Science. Belief and Data.

If creationism belongs anywhere in the classroom it belongs in Comparative Religion. But only after critical thinking skills are established.

Faith is a matter of the spirit. Knowledge is a matter of the mind. Even the Bible warns about mixing the two, from the Garden of Eden onward. We should heed that warning. Considering carefully when and where we attempt to bring the two together.

62 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:56:42pm

re: #58 Basho

Oh, and hack journalism too =)

63 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:57:00pm

re: #26 avanti

You know, when I try to convince to my leftie friends that conservatives are not all one sandwich short of a picnic, this sort of story pops up. It makes it easy to wrongly paint the entire right as religious fanatics pushing for a US theocracy.

I find it amazing that they don't "have to defend" troofers on several issues.

64 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:57:16pm

re: #58 Basho

From your link: Lol:
"an impressive mish-mash of blithering rigamarole"

65 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:59:06pm

In was planning on contributing 2000 words on theology but then realized I didnt really care what people think of my point of view....pass the Red Stripe

66 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:59:12pm

I think we scared songbird away.

67 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:59:12pm

re: #61 jcm

The is no obtainable data for a metaphysical concept.

I am firmly, absolutely certain God exists, and that he created everything.

I can't prove it. I believe it.

Science is about data.
Faith is about belief.

It is mistake to conflate the things. Faith and Science. Belief and Data.

If creationism belongs anywhere in the classroom it belongs in Comparative Religion. But only after critical thinking skills are established.

Faith is a matter of the spirit. Knowledge is a matter of the mind. Even the Bible warns about mixing the two, from the Garden of Eden onward. We should heed that warning. Considering carefully when and where we attempt to bring the two together.

Would you please stop being reasonable? How is this thread going to heat up with sensible crap like that?

68 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 3:59:14pm

I don't think that creationism is really what many christians think it is.
My theory on creationism:

In the last episodes of the movie "Roots" the main character goes back to where he thinks his ancestral village is. To confirm this, he asks one of the old elders to recite from memory all of the villagers from the past. The old man recites names and heritages for three days before the name of his long lost relative is mentioned.
I think this is exactly what happened when the author of Genesis wrote about the creation of the earth and everything else. The first day was spent telling him about all the events (whether accurate or not) that led up to the earth as was known. Since writing at that time was probably fairly difficult, the author probably said "fuck it" and gave us the really short synopsis we have today in Genesis.

69 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:00:57pm

re: #3 Bobibutu

Bobby Jindal may once have had a bright political future ...

There are moments in political history that can change a person's viable future. This one is Jindal's. He can sit back, do nothing and effectively destroy his future in the national arena. Or he can step forward, state that he made a mistake on the bill, and do everything in his power to stop this abomnation from going into effect.
It is totally up to him. I suspect he will do nothing, and
it's a pity. I once liked him as a candidate.

70 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:01:12pm

re: #35 jwb7605

I am about 300 miles to the west of the Yellowstone Caldera. You?

71 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:01:15pm

re: #58 Basho

Excellent post on evolution and the stupid ID talking points:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

I see's laying into Bryan Appleyard - that's the kind of thing I like to see. I read one of his anti-science tomes a few years ago, in which he whines about such evil effects of science as the widespread feeling that things are better than they used to be. The hippies I knew at the time considered him a real sage.

72 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:01:39pm

re: #54 karmic_inquisitor

Apt demonstration of how many on the left are close minded and bigoted.


Bigotry it not limited to the left. As a liberal, I've been called a Commie, ignorant, unpatriotic and the rest. LGF is the only site to the right of me that would not boot me off for having a different opinion on some issues. Just as the far left sites do a disservice to the moderate left, the Discovery Institute style conservationism does to the moderate right.

73 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:02:49pm

re: #72 avanti

Bigotry it not limited to the left. As a liberal, I've been called a Commie, ignorant, unpatriotic and the rest. LGF is the only site to the right of me that would not boot me off for having a different opinion on some issues. Just as the far left sites do a disservice to the moderate left, the Discovery Institute style conservationism does to the moderate right.

here's a beer...do you like beer?...carry on

74 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:03:20pm

re: #46 Charles

But I bet they made big bucks doing it.

/Religion, the second oldest profession.

75 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:03:45pm

re: #69 Haverwilde

I suspect he will do nothing, and
it's a pity. I once liked him as a candidate.

Agreed and I did as well.

76 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:03:47pm

re: #67 jwb7605

Would you please stop being reasonable? How is this thread going to heat up with sensible crap like that?

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!
CHARLES HATES US TURTLEISTS!
FIND ME ONE TURTLE THREAD!
INSULT THE TURTLE STACK YOU BOIL FOR ENTERNITY IN AN OIL FILLED TURTLE SHELL!

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:03:49pm

Where's Walter? How we supposed to have a "flame war" without Walter?
(I know he's at the theatre.)

78 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:03:52pm

re: #70 Bubblehead II

I am about 300 miles to the west of the Yellowstone Caldera. You?

same distance southeast (Boulder, CO area)
I live over the result of the biggest earthquake that ever occurred on this continent, from what I've read. It's apparently the most stable part of the continent, now, though.

... well, maybe except for Yellowstone ...

79 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:04:04pm

re: #73 albusteve

here's a beer...do you like beer?...carry on

Beer ? It's not just for breakfast anymore. :)

80 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:04:33pm

re: #76 jcm

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!
CHARLES HATES US TURTLEISTS!
FIND ME ONE TURTLE THREAD!
INSULT THE TURTLE STACK YOU BOIL FOR ENTERNITY IN AN OIL FILLED TURTLE SHELL!

thank you. upding. I feel much better now.

81 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:04:36pm

re: #51 jwb7605

Agreed.

82 freetoken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:05:06pm

re: #74 Bubblehead II

But I bet they made big bucks doing it.

/Religion, the second oldest profession.

You do realize that at times and places the oldest and second oldest professions were in a symbiotic relationship?

83 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:05:34pm
On Tuesday, the state’s Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted a policy that sharpens those fears, giving teachers license to use materials outside of the regular curriculum to teach “controversial” scientific theories including evolution, origins of life, and global warming.

I am just speechless that the words "controversial" and "theory of evolution" appear in the same sentence.

What is so "controversial" about the evolutionary process? The only thing I can think of is that some people find that the science of evolution does not fit with their religious version of "creation". That is the only controversy. And so any attempt to "teach the controversy" must of necessity include religious matters, regardless of how fancy sounding the language may be.

There is more than ample evidence that the evolutionary process exists.

The "controversy" always seems to boil down to a religious argument, never one based on true science.

How can anybody with half a brain miss that point?

And how in the world would any religious person with half a brain, and who takes their religious faith seriously, want to turn over the teaching of faith matters to the local school board?

I am at such a loss to understand this.

84 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:05:40pm

Just to restate what has been stated over years -

• You can believe God created heaven and Earth and still support scientific discovery and the theory of evolution;
• If you are a creationist or an evolutionist or both, you know that we all came from one tribe in one place and spread out from there, with our bodies, colors and shapes changing over time;
• If we are to believe that God created us in his image, then God gave us minds and curiosity, coupled with a universe of things to ponder so that we could know the joy of discovery. So why fear science?
• With each discovery, man finds new questions to ask, as if the horizons stretch infinitely. To me, that shows God's hand.

I don't need to undermine rationality to support God - instead I follow it.

85 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:06:16pm

re: #80 jwb7605

thank you. upding. I feel much better now.

;-)

86 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:07:27pm

re: #74 Bubblehead II

re: #46 Charles

/Religion, the second oldest profession.

Are you sure? I suspect that it may be older than the 'oldest profession.'

/(and I suspect that at times a guy gets more out of the 'oldest profession' and for less money.)

87 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:07:35pm

re: #78 jwb7605

same distance southeast (Boulder, CO area)
I live over the result of the biggest earthquake that ever occurred on this continent, from what I've read. It's apparently the most stable part of the continent, now, though.

... well, maybe except for Yellowstone ...

that's interesting...I never heard that one...I thought the biggest quake was Madrid

88 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:07:43pm

re: #84 karmic_inquisitor

Just to restate what has been stated over years -

• You can believe God created heaven and Earth and still support scientific discovery and the theory of evolution;
• If you are a creationist or an evolutionist or both, you know that we all came from one tribe in one place and spread out from there, with our bodies, colors and shapes changing over time;
• If we are to believe that God created us in his image, then God gave us minds and curiosity, coupled with a universe of things to ponder so that we could know the joy of discovery. So why fear science?
• With each discovery, man finds new questions to ask, as if the horizons stretch infinitely. To me, that shows God's hand.

I don't need to undermine rationality to support God - instead I follow it.

Thank you. Well said. Well written.

89 Last Mohican  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:07:47pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

I'm not sure what this means. Maybe it means that scientists should use modeling to solve the following problem: Suppose all the species on Earth were created exactly as they are today, and that they remained as they were created, without evolving. Given that presupposition, what's the likelihood that all the species on Earth would actually be exactly as we observe them to be? The answer is 100%. It would necessarily be the case.

Uh-oh, did I just scientifically prove that evolution never happened? This is getting scary. I'm going to try the model again. Suppose that five minutes ago, while I was sitting here on my couch, a gang of super-intelligent lemurs singing Billy Joel songs and riding Harley Davidsons roared into my living room and replaced my couch with another couch that looks identical, but is packed with C4, and set to explode in six minutes. If that were the case, what is the probability that everything in my living room would look exactly as it does now?

Holy shit. I better get out of here.

90 alexknyc  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:07:57pm

How will the introduction of religious dogma into science class help foster critical thinking skills?

91 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:08:28pm

re: #39 jwb7605

na ne na ne boo boo! I think that's French expression, isn't it? :)

LOL!
Yes, indeed, the most French of French expressions!

92 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:08:30pm

re: #83 reine.de.tout

The "controversy" always seems to boil down to a religious argument, never one based on true science.
How can anybody with half a brain miss that point?
And how in the world would any religious person with half a brain, and who takes their religious faith seriously, want to turn over the teaching of faith matters to the local school board?
I am at such a loss to understand this.

I, like you, would love to get BJs spin on why he signed it.

93 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:08:43pm

re: #83 reine.de.tout

"How can anybody with half a brain miss that point?"

There is a mental mechanism known as confirmation bias, illustrated by Glenn Morton's concept of 'Morton's Demon":
[Link: rationalwiki.com...]

94 VegasRick  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:08:54pm

re: #45 Abu Bin Squid

I sure hope this isn't the FNDT.

I'm invoking the iron fist rule..............and I'm not even drinking!

95 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:09:33pm

re: #84 karmic_inquisitor

Just to restate what has been stated over years -

• You can believe God created heaven and Earth and still support scientific discovery and the theory of evolution;
• If you are a creationist or an evolutionist or both, you know that we all came from one tribe in one place and spread out from there, with our bodies, colors and shapes changing over time;
• If we are to believe that God created us in his image, then God gave us minds and curiosity, coupled with a universe of things to ponder so that we could know the joy of discovery. So why fear science?
• With each discovery, man finds new questions to ask, as if the horizons stretch infinitely. To me, that shows God's hand.

I don't need to undermine rationality to support God - instead I follow it.


Believe it or not, I found an article a couple of days ago indicating "they" have found some remains where the DNA is human, not related to Aborigines, and the remains are like 6000 years old. The find was in Australia, and it might lead to a totally different theory on the single-source thing.

I posted it, seriously interesting read (to me, anyway).

96 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:09:45pm

re: #78 jwb7605

Looks like we will both fry at about the same time when it blows then. :-)

97 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:10:17pm

re: #93 jaunte

There is a mental mechanism known as confirmation bias, illustrated by Glenn Morton's concept of 'Morton's Demon":
[Link: rationalwiki.com...]

That's hilarious!
bookmarked it!

98 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:10:32pm

re: #87 albusteve

that's interesting...I never heard that one...I thought the biggest quake was Madrid

The one I refer to apparently formed the Rocky Mountains. It was a couple years before I was born ... maybe more. :)

99 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:11:25pm

re: #82 freetoken

Yep. If not the same.

100 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:11:33pm

re: #59 freetoken

Such a fundamental truth... people don't want to hear what will not support their inner voice...

That's where separation of church and state come in - you guys need to "build up that wall". It can't be the states role to reinforce the electorates religious views - especially not in science classes.

101 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:11:42pm

re: #97 reine.de.tout

It does explain a lot of what you read on these threads!

102 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:12:13pm

It saddens me to see the fine discerning minds of our children treated as political footballs.

103 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:12:56pm

re: #92 Bobibutu

. . .

I, like you, would love to get BJs spin on why he signed it.

I have a suspicion about something, but I am trying to get more information right now.

104 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:13:28pm

re: #59 freetoken

Such a fundamental truth... people don't want to hear what will not support their inner voice...

Only some people are like this.

Other people are dedicated to really finding the truth.

105 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:13:34pm

Time to stop pretending to work and go home. See y'all later.

106 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:14:03pm

re: #101 jaunte

It does explain a lot of what you read on these threads!

yep.

107 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:14:33pm

re: #98 jwb7605

The one I refer to apparently formed the Rocky Mountains. It was a couple years before I was born ... maybe more. :)

the Rockies were formed by a mechanism called orographic uplifting...pushed up when two opposing tectonic plates collide...in fact I believe they are still growing...someone fed you a line of bullshit and I would hunt them down and severely beat then about the head and shoulders...

108 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:14:38pm

re: #104 Ojoe

Only some people are like this.

Other people are dedicated to really finding the truth.

You are obviously referring to Al Gore.
//

109 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:14:44pm

Bobby Jindal will never be President.

110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:15:35pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Bobby Jindal will never be President.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

111 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:15:51pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Bobby Jindal will never be President.

neither will Albusteve...sad isn't it?

112 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:16:01pm

re: #86 Haverwilde

Please refer to the sarc tag, but yes, I would lay odds that prostitution (of a sort) came long before religion was even thought of.

113 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:16:20pm

re: #59 freetoken

. ..
Such a fundamental truth... people don't want to hear what will not support their inner voice...

Did you read the article Jaunte linked?

Morton's demon is a concept that derives from Maxwell's demon and was created by ex-creationist Glenn Morton. Maxwell's demon was a thought experiment where a demon could stand at a gate between two rooms and open the gate to let fast moving particles into one room and slow moving particles into the opposite room. This would create a temperature differential that could be used to perform work. Since it was thought that the demon did not expend energy to create this differential, it was believed that such a system could create a perpetual motion machine.


Morton proposed that a similar demon stands at the gate of the mind of creationists and other anti-evolutionists that only allows in evidence confirming their world view, and shuts out any disconfirming evidence. It is this demon that allows them to maintain their world view in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

114 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:16:23pm

re: #107 albusteve

the Rockies were formed by a mechanism called orographic uplifting...pushed up when two opposing tectonic plates collide...in fact I believe they are still growing...someone fed you a line of bullshit and I would hunt them down and severely beat then about the head and shoulders...

There's a difference?
... and yes, I think I read about an inch a year, in places.
I think it's more. The older I get, the higher the passes get when I hike.

115 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:16:25pm

re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's not that obvious to many Republicans. He's still very popular.

116 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:16:27pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Bobby Jindal will never be President.

Wasn't that what a lot of people were saying about zero?

117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:16:44pm

re: #111 albusteve

neither will Albusteve...sad isn't it?

Not so much.

118 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:17:22pm

re: #103 reine.de.tout

I have a suspicion about something, but I am trying to get more information right now.

Update: Governor Jindal Signs Creationism Bill
In another example of history repeating itself, Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana ignored warnings from scientists, educators, and even former former professors of his and signed into law the "academic freedom" legislation promoted by Christian groups and the Discovery Institute.

[Link: resoundingscience.blogspot.com...]

and

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

This is just strange.

119 freetoken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:17:23pm

How about this for irony...

Searching around the LA Department of Education website for interesting tidbits, I came across this:

Today, Jan 16, there was supposed to be a workshop for preparing for a PRAXIS examination...

The workshop was cancelled.

The subject of this workshop? Elementary Content Knowledge # 0014: Science

Perhaps they should just go ahead and cancel all the remaining Science PRAXIS workshops?

120 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:18:02pm

re: #90 alexknyc

It wouldn't. It would just muddy the waters.

Which is the whole idea I believe.

121 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:18:12pm

re: #117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not so much.

I've come to my senses..thanks

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:18:34pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

It's not that obvious to many Republicans. He's still very popular.

So is Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich, John McCain, Rush Limbaugh the list goes on and on. Bobby's star has set.

123 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:18:35pm

I've been told to not fear the religious right, but little things like this topic scare me. The administration pushing for a book to be sold at the parks book store claiming the Grand Canyon was a result of the great flood is another example. To me, it just reflected badly on what a conservative once was.

124 summergurl  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:18:38pm

re: #113 reine.de.tout

re: #59 freetoken

That explains alot of people.

125 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:18:49pm

I guess Jindal didnt want to be president.

This effectively kills his nomination in the future

126 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:19:06pm

re: #114 jwb7605

There's a difference?
... and yes, I think I read about an inch a year, in places.
I think it's more. The older I get, the higher the passes get when I hike.

funny...I was higher when I was younger, but not by that much

127 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:19:40pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So is Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich, John McCain, Rush Limbaugh the list goes on and on. Bobby's star has set.

What do you base that on?

128 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:20:10pm

re: #59 freetoken

. . .

The electorate of Louisiana wants their children to be instructed in the worldview that the electorate holds, even such worldview is in need of correction on some points, given all that has been learnt over several decades of observation and experimentation.
. . . ..

Please. Not the entire electorate. Some of the electorate, maybe even most of the electorate, I will concede. But not all.

I live in Baton Rouge, and worked in state government, and so I am well aware of what goes on here.

But with family and friends in other areas of the state, I have found that they are not aware of a whole lot of what goes on during legislative sessions. Their local papers don't cover it, unless it directly involves their community.

So I would be willing to bet there are a whole lot of people in the State of Louisiana right now who have no clue what's about to hit their kids in school. Sad, but true I think.

129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:21:21pm

re: #127 Occasional Reader

What do you base that on?

My opinion. I stated it as a declarative, that was wrong. Thanks.

130 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:21:49pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

And it's not just Louisiana ...

"Louisiana has a long and unfortunate history of trying to substitute dogma for science in ... classrooms," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, an executive director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a religious liberty watchdog.

The group says similar legislation has been attempted previously in other states such South Carolina, Alabama, Michigan, Missouri and Florida. Similar battles have also taken places at the school board level in Kansas.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

131 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:21:56pm

re: #123 avanti

I've been told to not fear the religious right, but little things like this topic scare me. The administration pushing for a book to be sold at the parks book store claiming the Grand Canyon was a result of the great flood is another example. To me, it just reflected badly on what a conservative once was.

"the great flood" in the books I've read at the Grand Canyon parks service refers to "the inland ocean" they speculate once covered most of the southwest.
I remember reading a pamphlet, and realizing "Oh. Not the Great Flood".

132 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:22:10pm

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs, but of course every other nation has customs also. So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches. Survival of the fittest.

133 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:22:16pm

re: #118 Bobibutu

Update: Governor Jindal Signs Creationism Bill
In another example of history repeating itself, Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana ignored warnings from scientists, educators, and even former former professors of his and signed into law the "academic freedom" legislation promoted by Christian groups and the Discovery Institute.

[Link: resoundingscience.blogspot.com...]

and

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

This is just strange.

Yes, it is strange. I'm trying to get some information about some things related perhaps to who he got support from in his run for governor.

134 freetoken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:22:27pm

re: #123 avanti

I've been told to not fear the religious right, but little things like this topic scare me.

IMO (and this is only an opinion), there is little chance of any move towards theocratic governance, at least in my lifetime, in this country (may not be true in some other nations.)

There is enough division within the various branches of Christiandom to keep any single group from having too overwhelming an influence.

However, political mischief prevails, and the dividing of the various self described "conservatives" along these ideological lines will continue.

135 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:22:30pm

re: #129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My opinion. I stated it as a declarative, that was wrong. Thanks.

Ah. No need to apologize. Opinion is, well, fine. I thought you were citing something... polling data, whatever.

136 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:22:57pm

re: #112 Bubblehead II

Please refer to the sarc tag, but yes, I would lay odds that prostitution (of a sort) came long before religion was even thought of.

Nope, I think sex was free or club seduced early on, but the first time a ancient man got near a lightening strike, he got religion in a hurry. Sun god, moon god, anything he did not understand, was supernatural.

137 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:23:17pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Please. Not the entire electorate. Some of the electorate, maybe even most of the electorate, I will concede. But not all.

I live in Baton Rouge, and worked in state government, and so I am well aware of what goes on here.

But with family and friends in other areas of the state, I have found that they are not aware of a whole lot of what goes on during legislative sessions. Their local papers don't cover it, unless it directly involves their community.

So I would be willing to bet there are a whole lot of people in the State of Louisiana right now who have no clue what's about to hit their kids in school. Sad, but true I think.

I'm not so sure LA is any different from most states....interest in grass roots politics seems to have waned over the years...

138 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:23:59pm

re: #130 Bobibutu

And it's not just Louisiana ...

"Louisiana has a long and unfortunate history of trying to substitute dogma for science in ... classrooms," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, an executive director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a religious liberty watchdog.

The group says similar legislation has been attempted previously in other states such South Carolina, Alabama, Michigan, Missouri and Florida. Similar battles have also taken places at the school board level in Kansas.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Barry Lynn (if it's the Reverend Barry Lynn I've seen on TV) is a nutcase on the other side of the circle.

139 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:24:13pm

re: #132 rondeldon

It's Baaaaaaaaccccccckkkkkkk.

140 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:24:30pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs, but of course every other nation has customs also. So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches. Survival of the fittest.

Evolution does not teach that we came from monkeys.

It teaches that monkeys and humans are closely related to monkeys, AND WE ARE.

It takes a really lazy parent to turn over to the local school board the teaching of faith to their children. I prefer to teach my faith to my child, my way, no interference from the government, thank you.

141 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:24:58pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Alex, I'll take "Buy a Clue" for $100.

142 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:25:06pm

re: #72 avanti

Bigotry it not limited to the left.

I didn't say that. The left is accustomed to throwing that label our way. I seek and have sought to get the left to see their own bigotry, which usually ends up with a "you can't call me that" defense when their own words have already convicted them.

As a liberal, I've been called a Commie, ignorant, unpatriotic and the rest.

A sad hazard of expressing opinion in our new found political culture. Name calling is a well practiced art these days and Nancy Pelosi is an example of someone quite adept at it.

LGF is the only site to the right of me that would not boot me off for having a different opinion on some issues.

Probably because Charles was a lefty once as are many here including myself. We changed our views when reality presented "insurmountable challenges" to our world views. Rather than ignore those realities, we rethought our positions and changed our worldview. You have a hell of a lot of different views here even though some are heard more often than others. No mind hive here. If you argue fairly (and avoid eliminationist rhetoric) you'll probably never lose your account here.

Just as the far left sites do a disservice to the moderate left, the Discovery Institute style conservationism does to the moderate right

Some of us have no idea what "conservative" and "moderate" mean anymore. But if you are talking about some social conserves trying to impose a religious straight jacket on public institutions then, yes, such people create a stigma. But there aren't that many of them, and they have no staying power.

We have a Constitution and a lot of precedence (reinforced by SCOTUS "conservatives", BTW - being an originalist requires you read and enforce the Bill of Rights) that has created a fairly large bright line between church and state. FWIW, the organizers and fund raisers on the left are quite adept at manipulating your emotions around "Christian Conservatism" and Abortion in order to polarize debate and raise money. Zombie and I have both posted numbers on how ineffective an overturn of Roe vs Wade would be in terms of banning abortion - very few states would enact abortion bans even though they'd have the ability to do so. Just the same, the left sounds the alarm and raises gazillions of $ every time they can find a pro lifer to amplify as a threat - Sarah Palin being the latest "threat". Money driven political distortion, thy name is Democrat.

143 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:25:21pm

re: #136 avanti

I think sex was free or club seduced early on

Cavemen had sex clubs?

144 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:25:37pm

re: #133 reine.de.tout

Yes, it is strange. I'm trying to get some information about some things related perhaps to who he got support from in his run for governor.

Like Deep Throats advice ... "Follow the money".

145 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:25:45pm

re: #143 Occasional Reader

Cavemen had sex clubs?

Where can I sign up?

146 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:26:35pm

re: #145 CynicalConservative

Where can I sign up?

Geico. Link is in fine print.

147 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:26:44pm

re: #130 Bobibutu

It's a national movement. Although they will never win the legal battles anti-intellectualism is gaining popularity.

148 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:27:35pm

re: #143 Occasional Reader

Cavemen had sex clubs?

Wooden club induced sex.:)

149 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:28:03pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their [sic] is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs

Those last three points, what chapters of The Origin of Species can they be found in?

150 brookly red  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:28:14pm

re: #14 Lincolntf

Since it's being bundled with Global Warming (which is already taught as science everywhere) then hopefully people will cast a skeptical eye on both.

the glass is half full.

151 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:28:15pm

re: #146 jwb7605

Geico. Link is in fine print.

Hmmmm, not the type of lizard I wanted to pursue...

152 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:28:39pm

re: #148 avanti

Wooden club induced sex.:)

oh...a woody club

153 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:30:29pm

re: #145 CynicalConservative

Where can I sign up?

Currently up on the pole dance platform; the exotic, insatiable Lucy.

154 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:30:31pm

re: #138 jwb7605

Barry Lynn (if it's the Reverend Barry Lynn I've seen on TV) is a nutcase on the other side of the circle.

This whole thing stinks - I don't think we're dealing with total fruit loops. Smart fruit loops and there's a lot of money to be made here.

Just on new textbooks alone ... lots of potential backscratching.

155 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:30:54pm
The Discovery Institute 340/1.3%
Deepak Chopra 390/1.5%

/ouch!

156 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:30:54pm

re: #136 avanti

Nope, I believe you are wrong. The males that were more successful in bringing in the food (money) got the women. Those that were poor hunters/gathers got nada.

Face it man, the female of the species have had us by the balls from the beginning and they haven't let go yet. :-)

157 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:31:18pm

re: #132 rondeldon

So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches.

Jihadists are motivated by what Islam - a religion - teaches. Only a colossal idiot would try to blame Darwin for that.

158 Tigger2005  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:31:35pm

re: #53 itellu3times

And in geography, they can explore the flat earth. Or Narnia.

I prefer Middle-earth. I want to study Middle-earth in geography class. I demand it!
/Oh wait, I'm 42 and no longer in school ...

159 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:32:00pm

re: #98 jwb7605

The one I refer to apparently formed the Rocky Mountains. It was a couple years before I was born ... maybe more. :)

Mountain ranges like the Rockies were not thrown up in one big quake. A tremor here, a tremor there, a little bit of movement on a thrust fault. It's still going on.

160 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:33:54pm

OT: Here's something you don't see everyday....
Orca and dog socializing

161 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:34:09pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs, but of course every other nation has customs also. So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches. Survival of the fittest.

1) Evolution doesn't say man came monkey's. BZZZT.
2) Science is mute on the meaning of life. BZZZT.
3) Science is mute on morality. BZZZT
4) Sociology is a different subject. BZZZT.
5) A bag of chemicals is inanimate. BZZZT.
6) Evolution teach about mutation, and adaption of a species. Not conscious choices of an individual(s). BZZZT.

BZZZZT
FAIL!

162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:35:08pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Ron? Let me tell you my problem (as a Christian) with the teaching of anything religious based in the schools.

Who decides exactly what version to teach? Catholic teacher may approach intelligent design differently than a Protestant teacher. Too many things are left up to a teacher's interpretation. A teacher in her/his classroom has almost as much power as a Judge in her/his courtroom.

What if the teacher is Hindu? Agnostic? Atheist?

If I wanted my child instructed only according to my faith, I would send them to a parochial school from my denomination. But what if the teacher only want's to teach from the King James version of the bible and is boring the little snots to tears. Then my child brings in 'The Message' version of the bible and gets dressed down from the teacher.

I just don't like other people choosing the road my children will take. I encourage individual thought from my children through the upbringing I offered to them.

Finally, I sure as hell don't want a bunch of Education PHD's figuring it out for me.

Thanks for hearing me out. Or not.

163 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:35:23pm

Looks like rondelon is the second "dump and run" on this thread.

164 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:35:40pm

re: #154 Bobibutu

re: #138 jwb7605


This whole thing stinks - I don't think we're dealing with total fruit loops. Smart fruit loops and there's a lot of money to be made here.

Just on new textbooks alone ... lots of potential backscratching.

I've got kind of a wait-and-see attitude. When the kids in LA can't get into college because of low science scores on their entrance exams, then maybe we'll see pragmatism return.

165 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:36:23pm

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Please. Not the entire electorate. Some of the electorate, maybe even most of the electorate, I will concede. But not all.

I live in Baton Rouge, and worked in state government, and so I am well aware of what goes on here.

But with family and friends in other areas of the state, I have found that they are not aware of a whole lot of what goes on during legislative sessions. Their local papers don't cover it, unless it directly involves their community.

So I would be willing to bet there are a whole lot of people in the State of Louisiana right now who have no clue what's about to hit their kids in school. Sad, but true I think.

Am I right in assuming that soon this will be challenged in court, and more than likely defeated, thanks to the Establishment Clause? In which case, only the lawyers profit. Wondering if the National Bar Association owns a piece of DI?

/

166 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:36:42pm

re: #123 avanti

I've been told to not fear the religious right, but little things like this topic scare me. The administration pushing for a book to be sold at the parks book store claiming the Grand Canyon was a result of the great flood is another example. To me, it just reflected badly on what a conservative once was.

Again, a distortion of "conservative".

As for things like this scaring you, I don't know what to say. Maybe when Democrats ran all of Louisiana for so many years they could have focused on educating the populace instead of structuring "cash in the freezer" kickback schemes and whatnot. An educated populace in Louisiana would not fall for the DI wedge strategy.

Which reminds me that there was an effort by the estate of a Republican American philanthropist to give public education in Chicago a boost. $50 million dollars was allocated to be spent on innovative programs there to stimulate students and improve achievement there.

Sadly, the money was squandered by rewarding political lackeys, resulting in an internal audit that showed no improvement whatsoever.

Who oversaw that effort? Barack Obama. His only executive experience to date. But he will have a second executive position to add to his resume next Tuesday.

167 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:36:47pm

re: #161 jcm

1) Evolution doesn't say man came monkey's. BZZZT.
2) Science is mute on the meaning of life. BZZZT.
3) Science is mute on morality. BZZZT
4) Sociology is a different subject. BZZZT.
5) A bag of chemicals is inanimate. BZZZT.
6) Evolution teach about mutation, and adaption of a species. Not conscious choices of an individual(s). BZZZT.

BZZZZT
FAIL!

I only quoted you because that's worth repeating. Nothing to add.

168 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:36:49pm

re: #156 Bubblehead II

re: #136 avanti

Nope, I believe you are wrong. The males that were more successful in bringing in the food (money) got the women. Those that were poor hunters/gathers got nada.

Face it man, the female of the species have had us by the balls from the beginning and they haven't let go yet. :-)

And they never will.
:o

169 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:37:04pm

re: #163 CynicalConservative

Looks like rondelon is the second "dump and run" on this thread.

/well, it's bad for your karma to stick around and collect double digit down dings on every comment

170 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:37:11pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Cats and dogs living together... Orcas and dogs socializing... mass hysteria.

171 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:38:06pm

re: #163 CynicalConservative

Who was the first?

172 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:38:15pm

re: #169 Killian Bundy

/well, it's bad for your karma to stick around and collect double digit down dings on every comment

Sad but true. Chikins!

173 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:38:39pm

re: #171 Bubblehead II

Who was the first?

songbird. Comment #1

174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:39:01pm

Hey, btw...this guy has four posts in how long? Geez, do these guys have alarms on their computers for when this issue arises.

Or...do they sit...all day...every day...waiting on the subject, watching... watching... waiting...

175 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:39:20pm

From Monkey Girl by Edward Humes:

Later, during a break, David Napierski, who was appointed to the Dover school board after the evolution vote, stands, stretches, and expresses his support for Intelligent Design and a teach-the-controversy approach. Like other members of the school board, he says his support for “balance” is not based on any extensive knowledge of what Intelligent Design is all about, or evolution for that matter. Indeed, he clearly fails to grasp that evolutionary theory in no way claims that man descended from apes, but only that today’s men and today’s apes share a common ancestor in the distant, prehistoric past. “I’ve discussed this with my daughter,” Napierski says, “and one things’ for sure, we didn’t come from any monkey. She knows that as well as I do.” What Napierski and his colleagues still do not seem to understand is that Charles Darwin would agree entirely with that statement.

176 Syrah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:39:33pm

No RoosterCam?

. . .

177 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:40:07pm

re: #174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey, btw...this guy has four posts in how long? Geez, do these guys have alarms on their computers for when this issue arises.

Or...do they sit...all day...every day...waiting on the subject, watching... watching... waiting...

nothing wrong with that imo

178 Irish Rose  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:40:37pm

Some great threads today Charles, time for me to settle down, and play catchup with the news of the day.

How about some nice Jazz for a Friday evening?

179 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:41:28pm

re: #131 jwb7605

"the great flood" in the books I've read at the Grand Canyon parks service refers to "the inland ocean" they speculate once covered most of the southwest.
I remember reading a pamphlet, and realizing "Oh. Not the Great Flood".

That there was a vast seaway linking the Gulf of Mexico to the Arctic Ocean isn't a matter of speculation; it's an observable fact. The vast expanses of sedimentary rock, rich in marine fossils, attest to that. Not to mention vast salt beds, found at depth in various parts of the basin.

180 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:41:32pm

re: #176 Syrah

No RoosterCam?

. . .

Shabbat?

181 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:41:35pm

re: #178 Irish Rose

Some great threads today Charles, time for me to settle down, and play catchup with the news of the day.

How about some nice Jazz for a Friday evening?

Who needs Jazz? We got a juicy ID thread to lure out the gamy troll buttocks.

//Just kidding (mostly) Jazz is always good.

182 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:41:57pm

re: #164 Soona'

I've got kind of a wait-and-see attitude. When the kids in LA can't get into college because of low science scores on their entrance exams, then maybe we'll see pragmatism return.

wait-and-see.

I've waited and seen the bar lowered on nearly all topics.
Pragmatism is getting less and less popular.

My only hope is that education follows the capacitor discharge-charge curve.
With a very small value of resistor on the charge side.

183 Syrah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:42:03pm

I am amazed that the Creationist have gotten this far.

Appalling.

184 Tigger2005  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs, but of course every other nation has customs also. So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches. Survival of the fittest.

Uh, the leaders in Iran, and most of the population, don't believe in evolution. They believe the Pentateuch account of Creation, Adam and Eve, etc. It's really made them appreciate the sanctity of life, hasn't it?

Anyway, evolution ONLY teaches that we, and other creatures, evolved from other forms of life (and we did not evolve directly from monkeys or apes, although we are related to them). It does not teach that there is no ultimate right or wrong, it does not teach moral relativity. If teachers bring those subjects into the teaching of evolution, then they are teaching their own philosophy, and not about evolution.

Please note that if humans evolved, then we clearly evolved to be moral creatures, or at least to recognize that ethics and morality are important.

And as for the Iranians "acting as evolution teaches," again, evolution is not taught in Iran. The Iranians are acting as they believe the Koran teaches. And nothing about evolution would justify the Iranians using nuclear weapons against Israel or the U.S. "Survival of the fittest" does not mean that only the most ruthless survive. Often those that survive are simply the most adaptable, or the ones who cooperate the best.

185 Irish Rose  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ron? Let me tell you my problem (as a Christian) with the teaching of anything religious based in the schools.

Who decides exactly what version to teach? Catholic teacher may approach intelligent design differently than a Protestant teacher. Too many things are left up to a teacher's interpretation. A teacher in her/his classroom has almost as much power as a Judge in her/his courtroom.

What if the teacher is Hindu? Agnostic? Atheist?

If I wanted my child instructed only according to my faith, I would send them to a parochial school from my denomination. But what if the teacher only want's to teach from the King James version of the bible and is boring the little snots to tears. Then my child brings in 'The Message' version of the bible and gets dressed down from the teacher.

I just don't like other people choosing the road my children will take. I encourage individual thought from my children through the upbringing I offered to them.

Finally, I sure as hell don't want a bunch of Education PHD's figuring it out for me.

Thanks for hearing me out. Or not.

My sentiments, exactly.

186 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:42:35pm

re: #180 jcm

re: #176 Syrah


Shabbat?

I Gaza City?

187 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:00pm

re: #170 Occasional Reader

Cats and dogs living together... Orcas and dogs socializing... mass hysteria.

That's it - I am watching a Bill Murray movie tonight.

188 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:07pm

re: #176 Syrah

No RoosterCam?

. . .

A post in one of the previous threads said that it's a holiday over there (I think it was Wishing said that it was the Shabbat, or something along those lines), so there might not be a RoosterCam for a few more hours. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will fill you in.

189 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:23pm

re: #186 Soona'

Undercover Zionist Rooster.

190 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:38pm

re: #186 Soona'

I Gaza City?

The stream is hosted on Israeli servers.

191 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:39pm

I'm going to take a different take on the I.D. posters. While I don't agree with them, and will enre: #179 Alberta Oil Peon

That there was a vast seaway linking the Gulf of Mexico to the Arctic Ocean isn't a matter of speculation; it's an observable fact. The vast expanses of sedimentary rock, rich in marine fossils, attest to that. Not to mention vast salt beds, found at depth in various parts of the basin.

lcontraian


Here's the story on the Flood Book

192 Syrah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:43pm

re: #180 jcm

Shabbat?

I thought that Friday would be more interesting than the other days of the week,

193 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:47pm

re: #179 Alberta Oil Peon

That there was a vast seaway linking the Gulf of Mexico to the Arctic Ocean isn't a matter of speculation; it's an observable fact. The vast expanses of sedimentary rock, rich in marine fossils, attest to that. Not to mention vast salt beds, found at depth in various parts of the basin.

Next thing you're going to point out is that Geology isn't my strongest suit?

/you would be correct ...

194 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:43:49pm

re: #182 jwb7605

re: #164 Soona'


wait-and-see.

I've waited and seen the bar lowered on nearly all topics.
Pragmatism is getting less and less popular.

My only hope is that education follows the capacitor discharge-charge curve.
With a very small value of resistor on the charge side.

Okay.

195 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:44:01pm

re: #187 karmic_inquisitor

Watch Rushmore. It's one of my favorites.

196 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:44:53pm

re: #186 Soona'

re: #180 jcm


re: #176 Syrah


Shabbat?


I Gaza City?


I = In

197 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:45:34pm

re: #191 avanti

I'm going to take a different take on the I.D. posters. While I don't agree with them, and will en

lcontraian

Here's the story on the href="http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/canyonflood.htm">Flood book..

198 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:11pm

OT: I am already sick to death of the Coronation of the God-King.

I'm glad to have a four-day weekend, of course.

199 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:23pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

Atheist!

200 realwest  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:47pm

re: #176 Syrah
Jonesing, are we?!
:)

201 ts.atomic  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:52pm

How about this:

Both sides are both right *and* wrong?

G_D created evolution!

202 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:55pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

OT: Here's something you don't see everyday....
Orca and dog socializing


Dog: We're all products of evolution.
Orca: No! We were brought here by space aliens.
Dog: What? No way. Don't you know science?
Orca : Yes, and we came from space aliens.
Dog: You're wrong. You're caught up in superstition!
Orca: No way. But the aliens did tell me that Dogs ARE evolved from CATS!
Dog: GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

203 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:56pm

re: #192 Syrah

I thought that Friday would be more interesting than the other days of the week,

I would think so too. Hamas would be expecting the IDF to relax a bit on the, and the IDF could exploit that.

204 Lynn B.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:46:56pm

I always liked this ...

From space, it seems an abstraction — a magician's trick on a darkened stage. And from this distance one might never imagine that it is alive. It first appeared in the sea almost four billion years ago in the form of single-celled life. In an explosion of life spanning millions of years, nature's first multicellular organisms began to multiply... and then it stopped. 440 million years ago, a great mass extinction would kill off nearly every species on the planet leaving the vast oceans decimated and empty. Slowly, plants began to evolve, then insects, only to be wiped out in the second great mass extinction upon the Earth. The cycle repeated again and again. Reptiles emerging, independent of the sea only to be killed off. Then dinosaurs, struggling to life along with the first birds, fish, and flowering plants — their decimations Earth's fourth and fifth great extinctions. Only 100,000 years ago, Homosapiens appear — man. From cave paintings to the Bible to Columbus and Apollo 11, we have been a tireless force upon the earth and off cataloguing the natural world as it unfolds to us. Rising to a world population of over five billion people all descended from that original single cell, that first spark of life. But for all our knowledge, what no one can say for certain, is what or who ignited that original spark....

-- Chris Carter and/or Frank Spotnitz (I assume)

205 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:47:34pm

re: #191 avanti

I'm going to take a different take on the I.D. posters. While I don't agree with them, and will en

lcontraian

Here's the story on the Flood Book

there are deep sea fossils on top of Sandia Peak right behind me...abt 10300ft...the top 900 ft of the mountain is limestone...pretty cool

206 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:47:54pm

re: #173 CynicalConservative

I wouldn't say she was a dump an run. She stuck around for several postings THEN she retreated as her position was untenable. Besides, she has 1286 posts and a 112 karma. rondeldon on the other hand only posted once, has only posted 4 times and has a -43 karma. Probably setting back and masturbating as we post about it.

207 realwest  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:48:09pm

re: #198 Occasional Reader
Huh? How do you get a four day weekend out of it?!

208 Sarge1984  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:48:28pm

Is this the FNDT yet?

209 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:48:48pm

re: #185 Irish Rose

Hiya Rose....

210 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:49:02pm

re: #183 Syrah

I am amazed that the Creationist have gotten this far.

Appalling.

FWIW, most people are asleep on the issue. Americans are fair minded people, and the wedge strategy intends to exploit that.

The language of "different points of view" that dominates education has created a beach for them to land on.

There aren't "different points of view" in physics. or math. or biology. But that construct has lazy minded people thinking that a competing "theory" should be given a chance, even though it doesn't meet the standard of scientific theory.

The "soft disciplines" in education created the notion that narrative trumps deduction - the linguistic idea that there are no hard truths, just perspectives. That has now bled into the hard sciences. Hell - there are professors in "Feminist Economics" out there. That the DI has made progress in such an environment doesn't really shock me.

211 debutaunt  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:49:16pm

re: #6 jwb7605

re: #1 songbird


Kinda with you.
I think creationism does NOT belong as the same sentence as science.
I would be OK with a course that confined itself to the theories of both subjects. That would be an elective class.

Be careful about offering to open up the school tent.

212 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:49:29pm

re: #207 realwest

Huh? How do you get a four day weekend out of it?!

You work for a liberal school system, like my wife, is my guess.

213 realwest  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:49:52pm

re: #203 jcm
Hey jcm! I would have thought that there'd be some action on a Friday when Hamas comes out of services!
Oh, wait, all their mosques are too full of weapons and ammo for them to be used as houses of worship!

214 realwest  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:50:35pm

re: #210 karmic_inquisitor
Yep, and well said, too.

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:50:54pm

I just ate a whole can of red grapefruit. I have never liked grapefruit. But I at the whole can to see if I have evolved to like grapefruit.

I still do not like grapefruit.

So, evolution is debunked.

216 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:50:55pm

re: #211 debutaunt

Be careful about offering to open up the school tent.

Already open in Louisiana. Apparently not elective, though.

217 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:51:02pm

re: #208 Sarge1984

Is this the FNDT yet?

soon...very soon weedhoppah

218 nyc redneck  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:51:05pm

creationism is there only to debunk evolution. that is it's purpose.
it does not bring anything to science.
and in the course of challenging evolution, it will be necessarily challenging so many other areas of science, ie. paleontology, geology, paleobotany, paleovirology and what these fields of study have given rise to.
creationism would try to undercut so much knowledge, across the board, that has come from provable scientific inquiry.
it is going backwards to allow it in the classroom. it is absurd to offer religious belief as science.

219 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:51:49pm

By their deeds shall ye know them...

220 debutaunt  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:51:52pm

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just ate a whole can of red grapefruit. I have never liked grapefruit. But I at the whole can to see if I have evolved to like grapefruit.

I still do not like grapefruit.

So, evolution is debunked.

No! Try fresh red grapefruit!

221 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:52:10pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs, but of course every other nation has customs also. So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches. Survival of the fittest.

I'm not sure where the custom of willfully clinging to ignorance comes from, but if that's your idea of western civilization- then that's pretty messed up. A culture that values ignorance and stagnation will be short lived.

222 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:52:34pm

re: #201 ts.atomic

How about this:

Both sides are both right *and* wrong?

G_D created evolution!

Sounds like youre Catholic. This is what I was taught some 30 years ago.

223 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:53:05pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

I'm not sure where the custom of willfully clinging to ignorance comes from, but if that's your idea of western civilization- then that's pretty messed up. A culture that values ignorance and stagnation will be short lived.

Islam being the lone exception

224 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:53:28pm

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just ate a whole can of red grapefruit. I have never liked grapefruit. But I at the whole can to see if I have evolved to like grapefruit.

I still do not like grapefruit.

So, evolution is debunked.

try some fresh stuff man.....CANNED grapefruit? YUCK!

225 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:53:47pm

re: #223 albusteve

Islam being the lone exception

That's because islam is a pyramid scheme devised to enrich the caliph.

226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:53:50pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

Hey, we were talking about your Karma earlier. You weren't around. Everyone agrees, we think you found a way to cheat.

227 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:54:08pm

re: #213 realwest

Hey jcm! I would have thought that there'd be some action on a Friday when Hamas comes out of services!
Oh, wait, all their mosques are too full of weapons and ammo for them to be used as houses of worship!

Work accident when all the Hamassholes are pointing skyward?

228 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:54:18pm

"Last year, Louisiana passed the Louisiana Science Education Act, a law that many scientists and educators said was a thinly veiled attempt to allow creationism and its variants into the science classroom. On Tuesday, the state’s Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted a policy that sharpens those fears,"

If evolution were true why are they so fearful?

229 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:54:19pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

I'm not sure where the custom of willfully clinging to ignorance comes from, but if that's your idea of western civilization- then that's pretty messed up. A culture that values ignorance and stagnation will be short lived.

Islam has been going strong for 1300 years or so.

/Just sayin'

230 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:54:27pm

re: #223 albusteve

re: #221 Sharmuta


Islam being the lone exception

Did the Druids have science?

231 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:54:54pm

re: #210 karmic_inquisitor

FWIW, most people are asleep on the issue. Americans are fair minded people, and the wedge strategy intends to exploit that.

The language of "different points of view" that dominates education has created a beach for them to land on.

There aren't "different points of view" in physics. or math. or biology. But that construct has lazy minded people thinking that a competing "theory" should be given a chance, even though it doesn't meet the standard of scientific theory.

The "soft disciplines" in education created the notion that narrative trumps deduction - the linguistic idea that there are no hard truths, just perspectives. That has now bled into the hard sciences. Hell - there are professors in "Feminist Economics" out there. That the DI has made progress in such an environment doesn't really shock me.

I submit that there are different points of view in physics and in biology.
Math, not so much.

Since they put the Hubbel telescope in place, lots of entertaining arguments and theories are being floated around.

232 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:54:55pm

re: #225 Sharmuta

That's because islam is a pyramid scheme devised to enrich the caliph.

they must be fabulously wealthy by now then eh?...Allah Snackbar!

233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:55:43pm

re: #229 CIA Reject

Helluva point.

234 debutaunt  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:55:59pm

"Officials: Obama ready to prohibit harsh interrogation techniques."

We will now irritate them into spilling their murdering beans.

235 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:56:03pm

re: #229 CIA Reject

Islam has been going strong for 1300 years or so.

/Just sayin'

And at the point where islamic scholars were wiped out by islamic fundamentalists- islam stopped contributing to science and has yet to contribute anything else meaningful to humanity.

236 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:57:00pm

re: #234 debutaunt

"Officials: Obama ready to prohibit harsh interrogation techniques."

We will now irritate them into spilling their murdering beans.

If Obama ever wants to know something from me, will a harsh response be OK?

237 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:57:13pm

re: #230 Soona'

Did the Druids have science?

enough to build Stonehenge

238 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:57:51pm

re: #226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's because you're all incapable of resisting my charm.

239 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:57:53pm

re: #191 avanti

I'm going to take a different take on the I.D. posters. While I don't agree with them, and will en

lcontraian

Here's the story on the Flood Book

Well, it sounds to me like simple intransigence on the part of department bureaucrats is the root of the problem here. I didn't see any evidence of it being due to an executive order on the part of GW Bush. And it seems clear to me that it would violate the Establishment Clause; at least it certainly would if it were the only book made available at NPS bookstores, or if it were given strong promotion by NPS. If it is merely one of many books offered for sale, and not given any special endorsement by NPS, I personally wouldn't object to its presence.

240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:03pm

re: #230 Soona'

Did the Druids have science?

"Funny. She doesn't look Druish"
-Spaceballs

241 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:20pm

re: #234 debutaunt

Keep that stuff up and we will be hit again, Mr. Obama.

242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:22pm

re: #238 Sharmuta

DAMN!

243 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:23pm

re: #237 albusteve

enough to build Stonehenge

Stonehenge is way older than the Druids. The Celts were living in trees somewhere in Russia or Central Asia when that was built.

244 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:33pm

re: #228 Davehm

"Last year, Louisiana passed the Louisiana Science Education Act, a law that many scientists and educators said was a thinly veiled attempt to allow creationism and its variants into the science classroom. On Tuesday, the state’s Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted a policy that sharpens those fears,"

If evolution were true why are they so fearful?

Because it takes up school time taking about magic. Why not spend time in biology class investigating how man was made from dust and Eve from his rib.

245 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:34pm

re: #238 Sharmuta

It's because you're all incapable of resisting my charm.

SCIENCE!

246 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:58:49pm

OT: Well, the sucking up has begun in earnest.

Fox News just reported that Beau Biden has been sent on temporary duty to the Pentagon, "coincidentally" allowing him to be there for his father's swearing in as VP.

Sorry, but I can't think of any possible valid reason a Delaware National Guard JAG captain could need to go TDY from Iraq to the Pentagon.

He hasn't been in long enough to know his way to the latrine without help.

247 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:59:06pm

re: #235 Sharmuta

And at the point where islamic scholars were wiped out by islamic fundamentalists- islam stopped contributing to science and has yet to contribute anything else meaningful to humanity.

If by "meaningful to humanity" you mean things of beauty and truth I agree, but the terror and bloodshed Islam has wrought is certainly meaningful. If for noone else than to the victims.

248 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:59:42pm

re: #228 Davehm

"Last year, Louisiana passed the Louisiana Science Education Act, a law that many scientists and educators said was a thinly veiled attempt to allow creationism and its variants into the science classroom. On Tuesday, the state’s Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted a policy that sharpens those fears,"

If evolution were true why are they so fearful?

It's not about the validity of evolution.

It's about teaching faith as science, and the unintended consequences that will follow.

Creationism wins. The Biblical account of creation is now taught as science.
Everyone else from Muslims to druids feel left out. Now science class consistent of all the variety of creation stories.

Our kids wouldn't know a boson from a bozo, a muon from a moron.

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:59:42pm

re: #237 albusteve

enough to build Stonehenge

And they were smart enough to ask someone else to drag the rocks to the site.

250 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:59:47pm

re: #243 Desert Dog

Stonehenge is way older than the Druids. The Celts were living in trees somewhere in Russia or Central Asia when that was built.

I didnt know that...who built it then...do you know?

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 4:59:58pm

re: #230 Soona'

I'm sure that some Druids were excellent at human anatomy.

252 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:00:07pm

re: #238 Sharmuta

re: #226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's because you're all incapable of resisting my charm.

Ahem. Yes, that's right.
:)

253 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:00:18pm

re: #228 Davehm

"Last year, Louisiana passed the Louisiana Science Education Act, a law that many scientists and educators said was a thinly veiled attempt to allow creationism and its variants into the science classroom. On Tuesday, the state’s Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted a policy that sharpens those fears,"

If evolution were true why are they so fearful?

Say some group came in and wanted to undermine your child's education by foisting ignorance instead of facts. Might you not be afraid of the consequences of that?

254 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:00:26pm

re: #247 CIA Reject

If by "meaningful to humanity" you mean things of beauty and truth I agree, but the terror and bloodshed Islam has wrought is certainly meaningful. If for noone else than to the victims.

I couldn't think of the wording. upding.

255 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:01:45pm

re: #238 Sharmuta

It's because you're all incapable of resisting my charm.

Charm?
Magic?
Witch?

Burn HER!

/no, I'd never...........

256 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:02:25pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Say some group came in and wanted to undermine your child's education by foisting ignorance instead of facts. Might you not be afraid of the consequences of that?

Say some group came in and started teaching sex education to my kids.
Say this was ... oh ... ten-twelve years ago.
Say the program was government sanctioned.

The answer was yes.

257 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:02:28pm

re: #250 albusteve

I didnt know that...who built it then...do you know?

They don't really know.....it's been dated over 5000 old though.....The Druids were nowhere near the Islands then. The same people built other mounds in the UK and in parts of France.....very advanced culture to figure out the stars and stone cutting like they did. Stonehenge is just a giant solar and lunar observatory.

258 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:03:05pm

re: #248 jcm

re: #228 Davehm


It's not about the validity of evolution.

It's about teaching faith as science, and the unintended consequences that will follow.

Creationism wins. The Biblical account of creation is now taught as science.
Everyone else from Muslims to druids feel left out. Now science class consistent of all the variety of creation stories.

Our kids wouldn't know a boson from a bozo, a muon from a moron.

W-What's a muon?

259 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:03:37pm

re: #255 IslandLibertarian

re: #238 Sharmuta


Charm?
Magic?
Witch?

Burn HER!

/no, I'd never...........

Weigh her. Does the weigh the same as a duck?

260 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:05pm

re: #259 EmmmieG

Weigh her. Does the weigh the same as a duck?

She turned me into a newt!

261 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:09pm

re: #257 Desert Dog

They don't really know.....it's been dated over 5000 old though.....The Druids were nowhere near the Islands then. The same people built other mounds in the UK and in parts of France.....very advanced culture to figure out the stars and stone cutting like they did. Stonehenge is just a giant solar and lunar observatory.

I hope to see it one day...very mysterious

262 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:28pm

re: #260 Desert Dog

You got better.

263 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:31pm

re: #247 CIA Reject

If by "meaningful to humanity" you mean things of beauty and truth I agree, but the terror and bloodshed Islam has wrought is certainly meaningful. If for noone else than to the victims.

Thanks to muslims, a lot of european knowledge was saved from being lost in the dark ages. They did contribute to our knowledge in this world through advances in math and science. Then the islamic fundies got the upper hand and wiped out the falasifa (philosophers). Just another fitna in a long list.

264 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:38pm

re: #258 Soona'

W-What's a muon?

a lepton similar in most respects to the electron except that it is unstable, it may be positively charged, and its mass is approximately 207 times greater; the positively charged muon is the antiparticle of the negatively charged muon.

clear enough?

265 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:41pm

re: #258 Soona'

W-What's a muon?

It's an elementary cow particle.

266 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:04:52pm

re: #246 lobo91

OT: Well, the sucking up has begun in earnest.

Fox News just reported that Beau Biden has been sent on temporary duty to the Pentagon, "coincidentally" allowing him to be there for his father's swearing in as VP.

Sorry, but I can't think of any possible valid reason a Delaware National Guard JAG captain could need to go TDY from Iraq to the Pentagon.

He hasn't been in long enough to know his way to the latrine without help.

Sorry, I can't get worked up over that, I'm glad to see his son be there for the event, especially based on the tragic family history. I don't see a "valid" reason either,but it seems a nice gesture overall.

267 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:05:09pm

re: #252 Soona'

I will refer you back to my 156. :-)

268 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:05:50pm

re: #259 EmmmieG

Weigh her. Does the weigh the same as a duck?

"And prey tell brave knight, how are you so schooled in the ways of science?"

269 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:06:10pm

re: #265 Alberta Oil Peon

It's an elementary cow particle.

*sigh*

And so it starts...

270 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:06:25pm

re: #264 jwb7605

re: #258 Soona'


a lepton similar in most respects to the electron except that it is unstable, it may be positively charged, and its mass is approximately 207 times greater; the positively charged muon is the antiparticle of the negatively charged muon.

clear enough?

Okay.

271 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:06:30pm

re: #256 jwb7605

Say some group came in and started teaching sex education to my kids.
Say this was ... oh ... ten-twelve years ago.
Say the program was government sanctioned.

The answer was yes.

Keep sex education out of schools, it'll help the abortion industry./s

272 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:06:58pm

Hey everybody. This is disturbing, extremely irresponsible ( both WAY understated on my part for the politeness aspect) and, correct me if I am wrong, a blatant violation of federal law. Keep in church bible class, and out of science class. Why has this not been challenged in the nearest federal court? A few years ago, we had a young man here, a high school student who brought a bible to school to read during study hall. He shared it with no one, talked to no one about it, just read it quietly by himself. It was for his own private perusal. He was ordered not to bring it with him to school again. He did, and was EXPELLED, not suspended. ( IMO he should have been able to read it in school, under the circumstances, as he kept it private, and read it on his free time) For this flipping of the bird to go unchallenged is outrageous.

273 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:07:43pm

I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true.

Carl Sagan

274 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:08:00pm

re: #271 avanti

Keep sex education out of schools, it'll help the abortion industry./s

The abortion industry was part of the curriculum.
That's an argument that should be isolated with religion.

275 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:08:04pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

Thanks to muslims, a lot of european knowledge was saved from being lost in the dark ages. They did contribute to our knowledge in this world through advances in math and science. Then the islamic fundies got the upper hand and wiped out the falasifa (philosophers). Just another fitna in a long list.

Kind of mirrors what we're seeing now, actually.

276 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:08:12pm

re: #261 albusteve

I hope to see it one day...very mysterious

I went there years ago. You cannot get too close now, it's all roped off. It is very cool though. We had a tour guide and the guy talked for hours, it was really fascinating. If you go, be sure to go to nearby Salisbury and see the Cathedral too. It's from the 1200's. There a really cool copy of the Magna Carta there.

277 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:08:13pm

re: #258 Soona'

W-What's a muon?

Sub-atomic particle.

The muon (from the letter mu (μ) used to represent it) is an elementary particle with negative electric charge and a spin of 1/2. It has a mean lifetime of 2.2μs, longer than any other unstable lepton, meson, or baryon except for the neutron. Together with the electron, the tau, and the neutrinos, it is classified as a lepton. Like all fundamental particles, the muon has an antimatter partner of opposite charge but equal mass and spin: the antimuon, also called a positive muon. Muons are denoted by μ− and antimuons by μ+.



Elementary sub-atomic particles.

Quarks
Up
Down
Charm
Strange
Top
Bottom
Leptons
Electron Neutrino
Electron
Muon Neutrino
Muon
Tau Neutrino
Tau
Bosons
Photon
Gluon
Pair of weak forces.

278 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:08:21pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

Been there, done that. Only the ignorant remain ignorant.

279 Cognito  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:08:51pm

re: #272 CapeCoddah

He shared it with no one, talked to no one about it, just read it quietly by himself. It was for his own private perusal. He was ordered not to bring it with him to school again. He did, and was EXPELLED, not suspended.

Interesting. Have you got a link for that, by any chance? I'd like to read more about it.

280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:09:12pm

DisturbedEma said something about the being close to having twins yesterday. Y'all keep her in your thoughts.

281 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:09:58pm

re: #244 avanti

You mean like we're doing now?
The word science means knowledge, 1+1=2 that's something we know,
evolution is more like speculative history rather than science..

btw. the chemical make up of a human being is the same as the dirt we find on this planet.

282 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:10:18pm

re: #265 Alberta Oil Peon

re: #258 Soona'


It's an elementary cow particle.

Is it a negatively charged particle being expelled from a positively charged cow asshole?
/

283 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:10:23pm

Elementary sub-atomic particles.
Quarks
Up
Down
Charm
Strange
Top
Bottom
Leptons
Electron Neutrino
Electron
Muon Neutrino
Muon
Tau Neutrino
Tau
Bosons
Photon
Gluon
Pair of weak forces.

Whoa...it's like...a veritable pun free-for-all.

284 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:11:01pm

re: #276 Desert Dog

I went there years ago. You cannot get too close now, it's all roped off. It is very cool though. We had a tour guide and the guy talked for hours, it was really fascinating. If you go, be sure to go to nearby Salisbury and see the Cathedral too. It's from the 1200's. There a really cool copy of the Magna Carta there.

cool...architecture is the main reason I'd like to visit Europe...castles, cathedrals and the like

285 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:11:10pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

re: #247 CIA Reject

Thanks to muslims, a lot of european knowledge was saved from being lost in the dark ages. They did contribute to our knowledge in this world through advances in math and science. Then the islamic fundies got the upper hand and wiped out the falasifa (philosophers). Just another fitna in a long list.

European knowledge? Mostly Greek and Roman classics, right?

And the advances were very, very modest. Name one.

(Well, Arabic numerals, hey, name another. al-cohol? OK, there is probably a list, and I'd like to see what it amounts to)

A lot of stuff often attributed to the Arab golden age, seems to actually have come from India. I forget just what, but there were two or three different cases of it over the last year or so. I think including the concept of zero.

286 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:11:12pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Bobby Jindal will never be President.

The only way Jindal will become President is if he undergoes an exorcism and has the demon of Creationism driven from his soul.

287 Soona'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:11:29pm

Gotta go folks. Have a good weekend.

288 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:11:45pm

re: #6 jwb7605

Kinda with you.
I think creationism does NOT belong as the same sentence as science.
I would be OK with a course that confined itself to the theories of both subjects. That would be an elective class.

There already are elective classes available, in some churches. Why do you think it has to be in school where I have to explain to my kids (if they were still in school) why their science teacher is an ass?

289 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:12:02pm

re: #281 Davehm

There is nothing speculative about evolution- there is an abundance of evidence from the fossil records to the genome. Just because you refuse to accept the validity of evolution doesn't mean your opinion trumps facts.

290 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:12:24pm

re: #283 EmmmieG

Don't get me started on Bosons.
Some of my best friends are Bosons.
And JCM, madam, is no Boson.

291 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:12:39pm

re: #283 EmmmieG

Elementary sub-atomic particles.
Quarks
Up
Down
Charm
Strange
Top
Bottom
Leptons
Electron Neutrino
Electron
Muon Neutrino
Muon
Tau Neutrino
Tau
Bosons
Photon
Gluon
Pair of weak forces.

Whoa...it's like...a veritable pun free-for-all.

Where's the dilithium crystals?

292 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:12:49pm

re: #285 itellu3times

How about hospitals, libraries and universities?

293 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:13:35pm

re: #279 Cognito

Interesting. Have you got a link for that, by any chance? I'd like to read more about it.

I will try to find it cog, but it was now that I think about it, 10-15 years ago. It happened at Nauset regional high school, in Eastham, Massachusetts.

294 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:13:36pm

re: #283 EmmmieG

Elementary sub-atomic particles.
Quarks
Up
Down
Charm
Strange
Top
Bottom
Leptons
Electron Neutrino
Electron
Muon Neutrino
Muon
Tau Neutrino
Tau
Bosons
Photon
Gluon
Pair of weak forces.

Whoa...it's like...a veritable pun free-for-all.

I remember years ago I read an article by somebody who was arguing that scientists had shot themselves in the foot by getting too cutesy with naming new particles. He claimed it made it more difficult to get funding for research because it was hard to take the subject seriously given the cute names. I can see his point.

295 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:14:03pm

Nice sunset in Coos Bay tonight.

296 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:14:09pm

re: #281 Davehm

First of all, which dirt? Farmers go to great efforts to balance their soil.

Secondly, can you cite data? here is the data for humans:

Element Percent by mass
Oxygen 65
Carbon 18
Hydrogen 10
Nitrogen 3
Calcium 1.5
Phosphorus 1.2
Potassium 0.2
Sulfur 0.2
Chlorine 0.2
Sodium 0.1
Magnesium 0.05
Iron, Cobalt, Copper, Zinc, Iodine

297 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:14:21pm

As Charles has said way at the beginning of the thread, creationism has virtually no leg to stand on as far as evidence goes. Absolutely none. This is most likely a backdoor way of pushing a radical agenda onto impressionable minds (as there isn't enough propaganda and bullshit spouted by leftist teachers), but what that agenda is we don't know for sure, well, at least, I don't know any, but I have some ideas about which.

And as nyc redneck said, this undermines all of the other sciences that sprouted from studying evolution, such as studies of the human body and disease and many others mentioned.

I wouldn't mind if a parent were to talk about creationism with their child, so long as they emphasis that creationism is a BELIEF, not grounded in facts. The kid's gonna learn about real sciences in school (so long as intelligent design isn't taught there). That's just my opinion.

I'm pretty open-minded on this. I think something had a hand in starting this whole mess, whether it was a supreme being or physics or something else, but I'm not going to reject the facts that have came out about it for my belief (misguided as they may be :P). We evolve, we adapt, we learn from our surroundings over the thousands and thousands of years in human existance, which is a small, small, small blip in the history of Earth. And there is substantial, overwhelming evidence of evolution from other species, such as similiar bone structures between birds and extinct dinosaurs. And we have evolution living amoung us as well. Alligators/crocodiles have been round for millions of years, evolving over the time to changes in their environment, keeping up with their prey and predators.

I guess this post is just a long winded rant that can easily be summed up with this:

KEEP INTELLIGENT DESIGN OUT OF THE SCHOOLS!

298 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:14:22pm

re: #290 jwb7605

Don't get me started on Bosons.
Some of my best friends are Bosons.
And JCM, madam, is no Boson.

Damn, I try so hard too!

299 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:14:37pm

re: #285 itellu3times

al-cohol?....beer predates Islam by like 3000yrs I think

300 eon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:14:45pm

Good evening, Lizards. After being offline for four days due to the computer being in the shop after a power spike.

Which gave me some extra TV time. And while watching the evening local news the last couple of days, I saw an interesting ad. Animations of dinosaurs in the jungle. As the "camera" moved, I saw Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, and even T-Rex.

I assumed it was an ad for a COSI (Center Of Science and Industry, Columbus, OH) exhibit on paleontology. Which they frequently do, in just this sort of style.

And then the camera showed an Apatosaurus raising its head up toward a tree branch, probably to munch some leaves.

Only thing is, there was a small boy riding on its neck. He reached out his hand- and a hand reached down from the tree, looking suspiciously like the famous Creation fresco in St. Paul's Cathedral.

The screen went black, and showed these words;

The Creation Science Museum.

You Will Believe.

Plus instructions on contact for times, etc.


When TV stations begin selling commercial time on the evening news for this sort of thing, methinks we are back to the mystical/anti-intellectual mentality that gave us Woodstock. No matter which end of the political spectrum it exudes from.

BTW, the station in question is WCMH-TV, Channel 4, the Columbus, OH, NBC affiliate. Anyone want to tell them they're making fools of themselves?

cheers

eon

301 MacGregor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:15:10pm

What are the chances this is being injected by an adversary and embraced by people like Jindal thinking it will empower them? This looks like a self inflicted wound and adversaries must love it.

302 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:15:25pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

re: #285 itellu3times

How about hospitals, libraries and universities?

I'm not sure any of those constitute advances in science of knowledge as such, whatever role they may have played in the societies. Did they really have any such things? The Wahabists today seem to replace them all with the mosque.

303 Cognito  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:15:32pm

re: #293 CapeCoddah

I will try to find it cog, but it was now that I think about it, 10-15 years ago. It happened at Nauset regional high school, in Eastham, Massachusetts.

Cool, thanks. That might be enough to go on.

304 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:15:45pm

re: #281 Davehm

You mean like we're doing now?
The word science means knowledge, 1+1=2 that's something we know,
evolution is more like speculative history rather than science..

btw. the chemical make up of a human being is the same as the dirt we find on this planet.

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!

305 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:15:47pm

I think I got cut off by a symbol in the list. Specifically, that the last items listed were less than a certain percent.

We can't do dirt until we specify which dirt.

306 Syrah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:15:47pm

You can be an Obama Poster! This one allows you to use a picture of yourself or anyone you want to make an poster in the style of the infamous red and blue Obama poster.

307 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:16:03pm

re: #272 CapeCoddah

Could I get a link to your story, it's just the sort of case the ACLU looks for good PR on Nothing in the constitution prohibits reading a Bible in public school on your own time, but maybe not in study hall. i.e., my kid was tagged for trying to read a non textbook in school study hall. (comic book)It may not have been a issue with the Bible, but covered many non text books,but I can't comment without a link.

308 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:16:23pm

re: #258 Soona'

Hi Soona,

Good point but...
If I were to believe that humans were made in the image of God I would treat and look at people a lot differently then if they were just animals.

309 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:16:24pm

re: #299 albusteve

re: #285 itellu3times

al-cohol?....beer predates Islam by like 3000yrs I think

By some distance, but we use the Arabic name, even if all they wanted to do was burn it.

310 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:16:29pm

re: #281 Davehm

You mean like we're doing now?
The word science means knowledge, 1+1=2 that's something we know,
evolution is more like speculative history rather than science..

btw. the chemical make up of a human being is the same as the dirt we find on this planet.

Actually, there's precious little silicon in human tissue, and quite a lot in most soils.

311 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:17:00pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

Mission long since accomplished. Your post presumes that like a penny spinning in the air, it is anybody's guess how things will come out with evolution, and that the evidence so far gives no real grounds for thinking it'll come up "heads". Think how utterly stupid you'd sound if you said "teach the newtonist theory of gravity, fine. But teach the controversy, and teach also Aristotle's explanation of why things fall: it is their nature to fall. Things that don't fall, don't fall because it is not their nature to fall. Don't just indoctrinate kids with newtonist theory. Let the data rule."

Fact is, evolution is on even stronger ground scientifically than Newtonian gravity. Newton's theory of gravitation, it turns out, isn't quite correct. It's a very good theory, and it accounts for all sorts of phenomenon, and it allows for predictions in a wide variety of settings. So far, just like evolution.

It's massively confirmed by evidence from all sorts of data. Just like evolution.

But there is another scientific theory for why things fall, one that is better still. Newton didn't quite have all the pieces to the puzzle. With Einstein, science moved its game up a notch when it came to gravity.

Evolution, as a theory describing the way today's life is related, fits all the evidence. There aren't even any troubling anomalies. Data roll in, a regular tide of data, confirmation piled atop confirmation.

The data, in its collective totality, is decisive. Evolution wins.

312 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:17:01pm

re: #300 eon

Good evening, Lizards. After being offline for four days due to the computer being in the shop after a power spike.

Which gave me some extra TV time. And while watching the evening local news the last couple of days, I saw an interesting ad. Animations of dinosaurs in the jungle. As the "camera" moved, I saw Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, and even T-Rex.

I assumed it was an ad for a COSI (Center Of Science and Industry, Columbus, OH) exhibit on paleontology. Which they frequently do, in just this sort of style.

And then the camera showed an Apatosaurus raising its head up toward a tree branch, probably to munch some leaves.

Only thing is, there was a small boy riding on its neck. He reached out his hand- and a hand reached down from the tree, looking suspiciously like the famous Creation fresco in St. Paul's Cathedral.

The screen went black, and showed these words;

The Creation Science Museum.

You Will Believe.

Plus instructions on contact for times, etc.

When TV stations begin selling commercial time on the evening news for this sort of thing, methinks we are back to the mystical/anti-intellectual mentality that gave us Woodstock. No matter which end of the political spectrum it exudes from.

BTW, the station in question is WCMH-TV, Channel 4, the Columbus, OH, NBC affiliate. Anyone want to tell them they're making fools of themselves?

cheers

eon

The Creation Science Musuem...You Will Believe

Wow.....that is amazing.....

313 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:17:37pm

The Penn and Teller BS show on exorcism is great -- just discovered it's on iTunes:

[Link: itunes.apple.com...]

314 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:18:04pm

re: #308 Davehm

We are animals- we're mammals.

315 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:19:13pm

re: #312 Desert Dog

Even more amazing they're asking $22 for admission. I guess there's one born every minute.

316 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:19:24pm

re: #309 itellu3times

By some distance, but we use the Arabic name, even if all they wanted to do was burn it.

speak English...who's we?...was the poster saying Persians invented al-cohol to burn?

317 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:20:10pm

re: #289 Sharmuta

Hi the key word in my post was history...evolution is about the past,
and if you call human beings building altars and flying airplanes into buildings in the name of that altar evolution then I'll pass.

318 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:20:26pm

re: #290 jwb7605

Don't get me started on Bosons.
Some of my best friends are Bosons.
And JCM, madam, is no Boson.

Coming soon, lhc.web.cern.ch...]>bosons/a>

319 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:20:44pm

re: #288 Naso Tang

There already are elective classes available, in some churches. Why do you think it has to be in school where I have to explain to my kids (if they were still in school) why their science teacher is an ass?

Since there seems to be no way to keep some sort of Religion out of the school, I suggested an elective course.
That would allow you to optionally explain it, depending on what optional (elective) courses your kid chose.

I did not suggest, under any circumstances, that Creationism, ID, or any such thing be part of a "science" class.

The point is that evolution does belong in a science class. It is a valid theory, provable data, and the theory of evolution itself is evolving. ID and/or Creationism does not belong in science class, it is faith based.

All I'm saying is that for those people who go bananas that Creationism is not taught in schools, and cannot afford or do not have access to a parochial school, it might be a workable compromise.

320 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:20:47pm

Here's their colorful and informative brochure. I am almost believing already! Whew!

321 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:21:04pm

Genesis 1:26.........and God said, "Let us make man in our image".........
OK, who the heck was he talking to?

322 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:21:39pm

re: #310 Alberta Oil Peon

Actually, there's precious little silicon in human tissue, and quite a lot in most soils.

Well, outside of Hollywood anyway...

323 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:21:44pm

re: #302 itellu3times

Yes- they really did have such things. I would say creating institutions where learning can be passed on to the next generation is an important aspect of science and it's advancement- isn't that what we're discussing? Science education?

324 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:21:56pm

OT--Any functional Rooster Cams tonight? The two links I have (catsup and Charles' thread) give error messages.

Did something happen to Achmed?

325 Desert Dog  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:22:09pm

re: #321 IslandLibertarian

Genesis 1:26.........and God said, "Let us make man in our image".........
OK, who the heck was he talking to?

Him and Mrs. God, of course. Who do think was the one wearing the pants? My money is on Mrs. God.

326 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:22:30pm

re: #315 Killgore Trout

Even more amazing they're asking $22 for admission. I guess there's one born every minute.

See the Egress!
------------------>

327 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:22:53pm

re: #317 Davehm

Hi the key word in my post was history...evolution is about the past,
and if you call human beings building altars and flying airplanes into buildings in the name of that altar evolution then I'll pass.

I don't think anyone said that, so you don't really have to stray that far off the subject.

328 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:22:57pm

re: #310 Alberta Oil Peon

Actually, there's precious little silicon in human tissue, and quite a lot in most soils.

You haven't met Angela.

329 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:23:06pm

re: #305 EmmmieG

You used the less than sign? The less than and greater than signs are part of the HTML language and any thing coming after a less than sign is "hidden" as the software thinks it's a HTML command.

330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:23:40pm

re: #315 Killgore Trout

Even more amazing they're asking $22 for admission. I guess there's one born every minute.

This way to the egress->->->->->

331 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:23:46pm

re: #322 CIA Reject

re: #328 IslandLibertarian

GMTA!

332 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:23:49pm

re: #2 CynicalConservative

Over/Under for the first meltdown on this thread?

#1 appears to be a real meltdown...

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:24:12pm

re: #326 jcm

See the Egress!
------------------>

re: #330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This way to the egress->->->->->


GMTA!

334 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:24:24pm

re: #322 CIA Reject

Well, outside of Hollywood anyway...

Heh! You got me there, although I understand that silicone is now passe, and that bags of saline solution are the preferred implant these days. Evolution is action!

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:24:39pm

re: #331 CIA Reject

re: #328 IslandLibertarian

GMTA!

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

GMTA!

GMTA!

336 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:24:51pm

re: #319 jwb7605

re: #288 Naso Tang


Since there seems to be no way to keep some sort of Religion out of the school, I suggested an elective course.
That would allow you to optionally explain it, depending on what optional (elective) courses your kid chose.


I did not suggest, under any circumstances, that Creationism, ID, or any such thing be part of a "science" class.

The point is that evolution does belong in a science class. It is a valid theory, provable data, and the theory of evolution itself is evolving. ID and/or Creationism does not belong in science class, it is faith based.

All I'm saying is that for those people who go bananas that Creationism is not taught in schools, and cannot afford or do not have access to a parochial school, it might be a workable compromise.

Some religions (mine) have high schoolers take an hour-long, daily, class on the religion itself. In some places it is done before school (that was me, big yawn), and in some places (Utah, Idaho) kids are let out of school for an hour to cross the street for the class.

The schools are not involved, and the kids have a chance to take their religion as seriously as their other classes.

This was NOT, however, in place of science.

337 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:24:54pm

re: #315 Killgore Trout

Even more amazing they're asking $22 for admission.


God will provide.

338 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:25:24pm

re: #12 songbird

That's why I'm saying "Let Data Rule". I'm not opposed to the teaching of evolution. Nor am I opposed to the possibility that the evolutionary model works. What I do believe is that scientists should explore and exhaust every possibility using the Scientific models.

In case you haven't got it yet, that is exactly what has been done, in spades. Why do you think schoolchildren should be left to figure out for themselves something that is already known? Isn't the purpose of school to teach knowledge? As far as critical thinking goes, there are a million ways to do that with truth and facts, not lies thrown in for confusion.

339 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:25:36pm

re: #334 Alberta Oil Peon

Heh! You got me there, although I understand that silicone is now passe, and that bags of saline solution are the preferred implant these days. Evolution is action!

Science! :-)

340 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:25:54pm

re: #321 IslandLibertarian

and the very next verse "God created man in His image"
His (masculine singular) there you see the triune nature of God in the very first chapter of the bible

341 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:26:10pm

re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

GMTA!

do it!...go for a threefer!

342 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:26:19pm

re: #336 EmmmieG

Some religions (mine) have high schoolers take an hour-long, daily, class on the religion itself. In some places it is done before school (that was me, big yawn), and in some places (Utah, Idaho) kids are let out of school for an hour to cross the street for the class.

The schools are not involved, and the kids have a chance to take their religion as seriously as their other classes.

This was NOT, however, in place of science.

We do not disagree. The Utah/Idaho thing sounds great to me!

343 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:26:35pm

re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My head hurts... :-)

344 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:26:44pm

re: #329 Bubblehead II

I had a copied a list of the elements in the human body (my children were required to memorize it last year, although I would bet not just money, but my chocolate stash, that they have already forgotten it), and the symbol was in it.

345 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:26:57pm

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

GMTA!

You have the correct signage!

346 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:27:22pm

re: #317 Davehm

Hi the key word in my post was history...evolution is about the past,
and if you call human beings building altars and flying airplanes into buildings in the name of that altar evolution then I'll pass.

You enjoy arguing from logical fallacies- that much is clear. Pretty ironic you'd use the fruits of science to rail against it.

347 Summer Seale  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:28:09pm

I really, really, think that to fight this, scientists are going about this entirely the wrong way.

The best way to fight it is to piss off and humiliate the religious extremists - not by trying to shut down the rule, but by showing how incredibly ludicrous it all is.

Scientists should band together and now clamor for Astrology to be taught alongside Astronomy...but more than that. Scientists should now also clamor for Wiccan and Pagan mystical cures to be taught alongside biology.

That'll be the way to piss off and humiliate the other side. They frigging hate witchcraft. If you let that into the classroom, they might just have to end up thinking twice. =)

348 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:28:23pm

re: #334 Alberta Oil Peon

Heh! You got me there, although I understand that silicone is now passe, and that bags of saline solution are the preferred implant these days. Evolution is action!

Gummy Bear implants are all the rage.

Everything You Need To Know About Gummy Bear Breast Implants

349 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:28:39pm

OK.
Charles didn't reply to my #11, the thread is heating up, and EmmmieG sounds annoyed that I agree with her.

My work is done.
Good Night, Lizards!

350 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:28:48pm

re: #340 Davehm

and the very next verse "God created man in His image"
His (masculine singular) there you see the triune nature of God in the very first chapter of the bible

Gen 1:2727 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

A foursome?

But still, Who was he talking to?

351 eon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:28:50pm

re: #318 avanti

Coming soon, bosons/a>

And let's not forget the mesons. After all, this is a 34-particle universe.

While difficult to detect, mesons make a few things possible in high-energy physics that wouldn't work in their absence. To say nothing of their utility in SF writing.

cheers

eon

352 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:29:00pm

re: #83 reine.de.tout

...................................

How can anybody with half a brain miss that point?

...............................................................

I am at such a loss to understand this.

I think you answered your own question.

353 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:29:09pm

re: #319 jwb7605

Since there seems to be no way to keep some sort of Religion out of the school, I suggested an elective course.
That would allow you to optionally explain it, depending on what optional (elective) courses your kid chose.

I did not suggest, under any circumstances, that Creationism, ID, or any such thing be part of a "science" class.

The point is that evolution does belong in a science class. It is a valid theory, provable data, and the theory of evolution itself is evolving. ID and/or Creationism does not belong in science class, it is faith based.

All I'm saying is that for those people who go bananas that Creationism is not taught in schools, and cannot afford or do not have access to a parochial school, it might be a workable compromise.

If a public school were to have an alternative, it would be a class in philosophy and religion, or a class in eastern and western thought, not a religion class. These courses are frequently taught at university level, but I know few public elementary or high schools that teach this sort of thing.

And just to clear up a point - I would also like to point out that a 'parochial' school does not necessarily mean that kids are taught the DI "creationism".

My daughter attends a parochial school, where she takes a religion class, AND she takes science, were evolution is taught, all on its own. There is no discrepancy; and there is no confusing of science and faith.

354 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:29:17pm

re: #331 CIA Reject

re: #328 IslandLibertarian

GMTA!

You guys do know, I hope, that silicon (the stuff sand's made of) and silicone (like in a tube of caulk) are two entirely different things?

355 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:29:52pm

re: #352 Naso Tang

I think you answered your own question.

YO!
You sayin' I have half a brain?

356 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:30:08pm

re: #281 Davehm

You mean like we're doing now?
The word science means knowledge, 1+1=2 that's something we know,
evolution is more like speculative history rather than science..

btw. the chemical make up of a human being is the same as the dirt we find on this planet.

Oh puhleeze. The chemical make up of humans includes the same elements we find in dirt. There aren't any other elements available, after all. But---the compounds and their proportions are far different. Just for starters, the proportion of water in the human body is higher than in even the muddiest soil. We're saltier. We're meatier: more protein, by far. We're fattier. We contain more calcium, more nitrogen, more carbon, less silicon. And then we get to the RNA and DNA. In humans, and in life generally, quite a bit. In dirt, umm, not so much.

Evolution isn't just like science, it is science. Almost any historical "fact" counts as fact only because of a mass of textual evidence buttressed by often scanty physical evidence from more recent times. Is there any physical evidence that Wellington and Napoleon were at Waterloo? How much physical evidence is there even that a battle was fought at Waterloo?

Enough, for the second question, and none, for the first. The evidence in favor of evolution is stronger than the evidence that there was a battle at Waterloo. And Waterloo isn't "speculative" history. It is, rightly, taught as flat fact.

357 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:30:34pm

re: #307 avanti

Could I get a link to your story, it's just the sort of case the ACLU looks for good PR on Nothing in the constitution prohibits reading a Bible in public school on your own time, but maybe not in study hall. i.e., my kid was tagged for trying to read a non textbook in school study hall. (comic book)It may not have been a issue with the Bible, but covered many non text books,but I can't comment without a link.

This was definitely a bible issue. IIRC, he read it at lunch, also. It is an old story, pre-news-online I think, definitely pre ME online. The Cape Cod Times may have it buried in the archives, but, since it is a NYT newspaper, I refuse to pay for access. I won't even spend .50 cents a day for the hard copy.

358 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:31:09pm

For those readers who don't think Obama is black.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In the US if he self identifies as black and has a grandparent that is black, popular culture accepts him as black. Not Arab or White. If you think Arab or white is correct then your logic is failing you and Captain Kirk would be able to make you seethe and smoke and then blow up. Thus freeing the world from your misconceptions. And you would be reincarnated as a troofer.

However if he lived in Brazil he would be considered a white person.

We would have to defer to the authority of Dr. Suess to acutally clear up what is going on here.

Illinois probably has a law on the books still designating that Obama is indeed legally black in Illinois.

359 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:31:41pm

re: #332 Dustyvet

#1 appears to be a real meltdown...

Yeah, kinda kills the whole game.

360 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:31:43pm

re: #344 EmmmieG

I've made that mistake a few times and wondered what the heck was going on. The I noticed those two symbols were very prominent in the reply header and quit using them.

What type of Chocolate did you say you have?

361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:31:50pm

re: #354 lobo91

You guys do know, I hope, that silicon (the stuff sand's made of) and silicone (like in a tube of caulk) are two entirely different things?

(scoff) Of course. Made of silicone(e). Sheesh!

362 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:31:59pm

re: #354 lobo91

You guys do know, I hope, that silicon (the stuff sand's made of) and silicone (like in a tube of caulk) are two entirely different things?

I think Sandy's implants were saline...............

363 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:32:46pm

re: #321 IslandLibertarian

Genesis 1:26.........and God said, "Let us make man in our image".........
OK, who the heck was he talking to?

God had a wife in the early Hebrew texts and it's a good thing or we'd not have had Eve or penises.

364 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:32:56pm

re: #321 IslandLibertarian

Genesis 1:26.........and God said, "Let us make man in our image".........
OK, who the heck was he talking to?

That's the Royal We. If Queen Victoria found some prank offensive, she might say, "we are not amused". She, herself, counted as a "we", in the language of the day. Lesser mortals didn't get to use such language with respect to themselves.

365 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:33:06pm

re: #354 lobo91

You guys do know, I hope, that silicon (the stuff sand's made of) and silicone (like in a tube of caulk) are two entirely different things?

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? :-)

366 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:33:29pm

re: #358 hazzyday

For those readers who don't think Obama is black.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In the US if he self identifies as black and has a grandparent that is black, popular culture accepts him as black. Not Arab or White. If you think Arab or white is correct then your logic is failing you and Captain Kirk would be able to make you seethe and smoke and then blow up. Thus freeing the world from your misconceptions. And you would be reincarnated as a troofer.

However if he lived in Brazil he would be considered a white person.

We would have to defer to the authority of Dr. Suess to acutally clear up what is going on here.

Illinois probably has a law on the books still designating that Obama is indeed legally black in Illinois.

legally?...so friggin what...I smoke pot so legally I'm a criminal...big whoop...BO is not black...

367 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:35:07pm

re: #348 HelloDare

Great, now all we need is for some photoshop addict to cut and paste a "enhanced" pair of boobs onto a 80 year old lady...........................

368 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:35:16pm

re: #360 Bubblehead II

Well, at the moment it's the cheap chocolate mint cookie. In the kind of ironic twist that sometimes happens, the cheap generic ones are better than the name-brand. Darker and crisper.

While we are on my favorite subject, if you live near Portland, the forestry center is having a chocolate fest Jan 31-Feb 1.

369 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:36:11pm

****Reminder to all New England Lizards (and any others who are interested):
Loppyd and I are in the infancy stages of planning a NE lizard bash. Please e-mail me if you are interested. My nic is blue.

370 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:36:45pm
371 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:36:49pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

Jumping in late but, you need to understand what data is (are) first.

372 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:37:20pm

re: #358 hazzyday

For those readers who don't think Obama is black.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In the US if he self identifies as black and has a grandparent that is black, popular culture accepts him as black. Not Arab or White. If you think Arab or white is correct then your logic is failing you and Captain Kirk would be able to make you seethe and smoke and then blow up. Thus freeing the world from your misconceptions. And you would be reincarnated as a troofer.

However if he lived in Brazil he would be considered a white person.

We would have to defer to the authority of Dr. Suess to acutally clear up what is going on here.

Illinois probably has a law on the books still designating that Obama is indeed legally black in Illinois.

Obama is Black? I thought he was merely Omnipotent.

373 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:37:40pm

re: #368 EmmmieG

Well, at the moment it's the cheap chocolate mint cookie. In the kind of ironic twist that sometimes happens, the cheap generic ones are better than the name-brand. Darker and crisper.

While we are on my favorite subject, if you live near Portland, the forestry center is having a chocolate fest Jan 31-Feb 1.

My sister lives in St. Helens.... I might have to visit...

374 ts.atomic  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:38:04pm

re: #222 Hooray for Captain Spaulding

Sounds like youre Catholic. This is what I was taught some 30 years ago.

Nah... I tried a midnight mass with a friend once and that was as close to "cat-lick" as I've ever been. I was raised southern methodist ("Bored for the Lord").

On the issue at hand, I think that creation *definitely* does NOT belong in the science courses -- put it in the theology courses. I also think that evolution requires it's own "leaps of faith" as I have yet to hear anything other than unproven theories as to how dna spontaneously erupted. So, I rather suspect neither side will ever understand it all.

But I'm still not clear on the point of the whole argument. Both creationism and evolution will be argued by their respective proponents into perpetuity.

Anyone know what the goal is? Other than "Bragging Rights"?

375 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:38:38pm

re: #272 CapeCoddah

Hey everybody. This is disturbing, extremely irresponsible ( both WAY understated on my part for the politeness aspect) and, correct me if I am wrong, a blatant violation of federal law. Keep in church bible class, and out of science class. Why has this not been challenged in the nearest federal court? A few years ago, we had a young man here, a high school student who brought a bible to school to read during study hall. He shared it with no one, talked to no one about it, just read it quietly by himself. It was for his own private perusal. He was ordered not to bring it with him to school again. He did, and was EXPELLED, not suspended. ( IMO he should have been able to read it in school, under the circumstances, as he kept it private, and read it on his free time) For this flipping of the bird to go unchallenged is outrageous.

Could you let us have the full verifiable details of this please? There are countless such stories floating around and most are gross exaggerations, or outright lies.

376 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:38:43pm

I'm not actually annoyed at jwb, but if I tried really hard, I could work the posts on the plurality of divinity in with Queen Victoria, but that's just making my head hurt, and I need to make dinner.

Which will not involve chocolate.

377 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:05pm

re: #9 Charles

In order for that to happen, there would have to actually be some data supporting "intelligent design." There isn't. Not a single peer-reviewed paper, not a single coherent scientific theory or even hypothesis. Not an iota of empirical evidence.

ID is a fraud, intended to promote an extreme religious agenda.

Should have scrolled down a couple more. anyway, what he said.

378 eon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:11pm

re: #347 Summer

I really, really, think that to fight this, scientists are going about this entirely the wrong way.

The best way to fight it is to piss off and humiliate the religious extremists - not by trying to shut down the rule, but by showing how incredibly ludicrous it all is.

Scientists should band together and now clamor for Astrology to be taught alongside Astronomy...but more than that. Scientists should now also clamor for Wiccan and Pagan mystical cures to be taught alongside biology.

That'll be the way to piss off and humiliate the other side. They frigging hate witchcraft. If you let that into the classroom, they might just have to end up thinking twice. =)

They would, of course, be counterbalanced by the "progressives" who believe in all of that, and more. If you don't believe me, take a look at the course catalog of any mid-sized community college today. I am no longer surprised to find classes on holistic medicine (including the healing power of everything from green tea to "tinctures"), crystal power, and "The Wiccan Way" being taught alongside courses in Art in liberal arts departments. The difference being, of course, that the LA majors who are teaching them think that they're teaching "real science", too- just not the awful, patriarchal, DWM-style Western type.

Politics and theology make strange bedfellows. And can make allies out of groups who otherwise have no use for each other whatsoever.

I now believe Heinlein was correct when he said (in The Number of the Beast) that the rot in our academic system is too deeply rooted for any hope of recovery. The only thing to do (to further quote The Old Man) is to plow it under and start over again from scratch.

cheers

eon

379 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:28pm

re: #364 lostlakehiker

That's the Royal We. If Queen Victoria found some prank offensive, she might say, "we are not amused". She, herself, counted as a "we", in the language of the day. Lesser mortals didn't get to use such language with respect to themselves.

Found this little gem about the "Royal We" at wiki:

"United States Navy Admiral Hyman G. Rickover told a subordinate who used the royal we: "Three groups are permitted that usage: pregnant women, royalty, and schizophrenics. Which one are you?"

Classic Rickover!

380 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:30pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

YO!
You sayin' I have half a brain?

Could be, if that is your final interpretation.

;)

381 vxbush  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:37pm

re: #368 EmmmieG

Well, at the moment it's the cheap chocolate mint cookie. In the kind of ironic twist that sometimes happens, the cheap generic ones are better than the name-brand. Darker and crisper.

While we are on my favorite subject, if you live near Portland, the forestry center is having a chocolate fest Jan 31-Feb 1.

[head pops up]

Are we talking chocolate? What brand? Do tell!

382 wee fury  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:43pm

Testing Safari.

383 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:39:50pm

re: #346 Sharmuta

I'm just using logic...science and the bible don't contradict each other,
where did life begin?
whats the meaning of life?
is there a God?
if so what is He like?
can I get to know God?
what happens to me when I die?
Those 6 questions science can not answer...along with a bunch of other questions.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 examine all things and hold fast to what is good.

So I examine evolution, the beginning of the universe and things of that nature and I've found that "scientist" offer more questions then they do answers.

384 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:41:17pm

re: #381 vxbush

[head pops up]

Are we talking chocolate? What brand? Do tell!

who is the forestry center and what is their interest in chocolate?

385 Syrah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:41:26pm

re: #382 wee fury

Testing Safari.

Bring'em back alive Jim.

386 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:42:24pm

re: #375 Naso Tang

Could you let us have the full verifiable details of this please? There are countless such stories floating around and most are gross exaggerations, or outright lies.

I do not lie, nor do I exaggerate. I would not have mentioned it if it were not the truth. It was a story in the Cape Cod times sometime in the 90's.

387 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:42:37pm

Ever sense Tennessee attempted to legislate π = 3, it's best to ignore the several states when it comes to science.

388 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:42:40pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So is Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich, John McCain, Rush Limbaugh the list goes on and on. Bobby's star has set.

So you are comfortable with the idea that there will be no Republican leader who can challenge the reelection of the Messiah?

389 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:42:46pm

re: #350 IslandLibertarian

divine counsel...Father, Son and Holy Spirit

390 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:43:40pm

re: #387 unreconstructed rebel

Ever sense Tennessee attempted to legislate π = 3, it's best to ignore the several states when it comes to science.

since - gah! I've had too much to drink

391 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:44:17pm

re: #383 Davehm

1st Thessalonians 5:21 examine all things and hold fast to what is good.

Science is good.

392 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:44:31pm

re: #383 Davehm

So I examine evolution, the beginning of the universe and things of that nature and I've found that "scientist" offer more questions then they do answers.

And yet you think this is a failing of science. It's part and parcel to science.

But this was funny:

where did life begin?
whats the meaning of life?
is there a God?
if so what is He like?
can I get to know God?
what happens to me when I die?

As if getting an answer to these questions wouldn't raise any other questions for you or anyone. But I guess that's the nature of inquiry- asking questions gets you some answers but it also leads to more questions. That's only logical.

393 seekeroftruth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:45:05pm

re: #300 eon

Interesting about the Creationism Science Museum ad. It reminded me of seeing a tv show about a huge family of 18 kids,going on a family trip to that same museum. (Late night channeling surfing while waiting for a teenager to arrive home.) It caught my attention because of these threads. The family can do what they want, but I don't like seeing ID being pushed into the mainstream acceptance from all angles, including tv.
Scroll down to episode ten.

394 vxbush  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:45:25pm

re: #384 albusteve

who is the forestry center and what is their interest in chocolate?

Forestry center.....Logres.
Their interest in chocolate.....How the spanish monks can gather such large quantities.
/

I have no idea.

395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:46:28pm

re: #388 Hobbes

So you are comfortable with the idea that there will be no Republican leader who can challenge the reelection of the Messiah?

Not comfortable at all. But something'll happen.

396 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:47:22pm

re: #321 IslandLibertarian

Genesis 1:26.........and God said, "Let us make man in our image".........
OK, who the heck was he talking to?

Himself. He was lonely.
/

397 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:47:34pm

I tend to be tolerant of these people who have faith in literal genesis. But maybe I am not. Lately I am thinking that type of ignorance is just not healthy. Oh by all means go ahead and believe it. But keep it to yourselves. Don't mention it to any thinking reasonable logical person. If you think you are thinking reasonably and logically and believe in the literal genesis, I would think your view of life is shallow and not deep spiritually or scientifically. It's like the worst of both worlds. You could yell and scream all you want like some seething jihadi but it wouldn't change that your spiritual worldview is closed. Just to make you feel comfortable....

The Protestant Reformation is your past as a literal genesis believer. Somewhere along the line the literal genesis church evolved into what it is today. My interpretation of that evolution in this type of faith is that undereducated charismatic leaders who couldn't understand allegory or parables swayed people and created this type of cult. That was something easy to do in the past. While great religious institutions have their flaws, their corruptions, and their own sins, they are still a repository of religious history (that evolves). They understand why the Bible doesn't mention ice.

A smart literal genesis preacher today who is charismatic and self interprets the Bible for himself and his flock -- I believe -- sins greatly and is unable to discriminate out his purely base human thoughts from his divine thoughts. This is what gave rise to "young earth creationism". Leaving behind that type of thought pattern is purely the individuals initiative. And often occurs when they are faced with opposing knowledge that they have to reconcile.

398 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:47:35pm

re: #368 EmmmieG

About 6-8 hours from there. Twin Fall, Idaho. Not a big chocolate fan myself, but the Ladies I work with love the stuff. One of them has a friend that gets her one of these every Christmas. She brings it in and shares with everybody. It lasts about a month.

399 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:47:53pm

re: #383 Davehm

I'm just using logic...science and the bible don't contradict each other,
where did life begin?
whats the meaning of life?
is there a God?
if so what is He like?
can I get to know God?
what happens to me when I die?
Those 6 questions science can not answer...along with a bunch of other questions.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 examine all things and hold fast to what is good.

So I examine evolution, the beginning of the universe and things of that nature and I've found that "scientist" offer more questions then they do answers.

Guess what? Science doesn't purport to be able to answer those six questions. It's not a bug, it's a feature. Seriously so.

400 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:47:54pm

re: #388 Hobbes

So you are comfortable with the idea that there will be no Republican leader who can challenge the reelection of the Messiah?

It sounds as though you've decided that it's either Jindal or nobody.

Somehow, I just don't think that's going to be the case.

401 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:48:42pm

re: #395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not comfortable at all. But something'll happen.

Sounds like you're counting on a faith-based solution. Miracle maybe?

402 Pauley  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:49:19pm

I think many people (OK, maybe a few) would feel better about this ID thingy if alternatives to the creation were taught. For example, the Serpent God Basilisk creating the heavens and Earth in six days: a Greek belief which predated the Judeo-Christian God by hundreds of years. This would sort out the science and the believers, and possibly reveal the true root-cause of this ID business (not that anyone doesn't already know)

403 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:49:33pm

re: #399 Alberta Oil Peon

More than that- if those 6 questions were to be answered, the would be more questions! And one of those questions already has a follow-up, so it's really 5 questions.

404 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:49:36pm

In defense of Darwin:
[Link: www.ft.com...]

405 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:50:27pm

re: #380 Naso Tang

Could be, if that is your final interpretation.

;)

I think I have the smarter half.

406 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:50:58pm

Save yourselves and don't seek answers! It leads to more questions- oh the humanity!

407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:51:06pm

re: #401 Hobbes

Did you catch the context of my post? I was simply saying there are many Republicans who, while popular with many Republicans, can not win the Presidency. That was all. Wasn't saying that no Republicans are electable.

408 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:51:27pm

re: #400 lobo91

It sounds as though you've decided that it's either Jindal or nobody.

Somehow, I just don't think that's going to be the case.

No, I'm not.

409 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:51:47pm

re: #401 Hobbes

Sounds like you're counting on a faith-based solution. Miracle maybe?

You know, I remember the period immediately following Clinton's re-election in 1996 pretty well.

One thing I don't remember from that period, though, was anyone talking about George W. Bush as the leader of the Repblican party.

Somehow, though, he managed to win the next two elections.

410 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:51:57pm

re: #366 albusteve

legally?...so friggin what...I smoke pot so legally I'm a criminal...big whoop...BO is not black...

You're all by yourself on that idea. It won't hold up anywhere.

411 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:52:32pm

Er... I hate to be a link dumper, but I found this great interview with Michael Shermer regarding skepticism, reason, and what-not:

Part 1


Part 2
412 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:52:55pm

re: #392 Sharmuta

Absolutely not, I happen to know the answers to those questions because the bible answers them and looking at this world the universe and the things that go on everything to me makes perfect sense.

413 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:53:02pm

re: #310 Alberta Oil Peon

Actually, there's precious little silicon in human tissue, and quite a lot in most soils.

I read this fast and was going to respond differently. Then I read the rest. You're absolutely correct (although silicon is the element and silica is the mineral).

414 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:53:28pm

re: #383 Davehm

I'm just using logic...science and the bible don't contradict each other,
where did life begin?
whats the meaning of life?
is there a God?
if so what is He like?
can I get to know God?
what happens to me when I die?
Those 6 questions science can not answer...along with a bunch of other questions.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 examine all things and hold fast to what is good.

So I examine evolution, the beginning of the universe and things of that nature and I've found that "scientist" offer more questions then they do answers.

I believe in the Creator. That God created all things.
I also believe in his creation, that it testifies of Him.
I believe we were given the capacity and the ability to explore and discover His creation, the things he has hidden.

That creation tells me many things. That the universe is around 15 billion years old. That the earth is around 4 billion years old. That though that time species have come and gone.

Do you believe in what creation tells us or something else?

Science doesn't and can't deal with The Creator creating. It is outside the realm of science. Whether creation was a watch set in motion, or the Creator is constantly fiddling with creation, or something in between is a theological debate. Science can only look at the physical evidence at hand. Any thing further is not science.

Similarly from the faith side, we are given a spiritual text, to guide us spiritually. It is not a science, it covers what happened in the physical world as it relates to our spiritual lives. It is mute on details of how. Any thing further is no longer faith.

415 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:53:46pm

re: #319 jwb7605

This suggestion of electives and "comparative religion" classes is always brought up as a "compromise".

The first principle is that one cannot compromise on matters of ignorance versus reality (I hesitate to say truth, for obvious reasons).

The second point, not principle, is that it is impossible to have any form of religious teaching, even disguised as "comparative" without including every conceivable religion if requested to do so, and without offending most of them at some point (since they all, by definition, disagree with eachg other), and it would require excessive policing to make sure that what was supposed to be elective was elective. (Let us also remember that IDers pretend that ID is not religious in nature).

In case you didn't know, there are many many small rural schools in this country. Where I am now in Georgia the high school has 6 students in the senior class. It's a nice school, but I can guarantee that there would be issues as to who would teach such matters and everyone would know which kids, and family attended the elective or did not, depending on which was the majority.

Does that can of worms belong in any decent school system?

416 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:53:57pm

re: #383 Davehm

I'm just using logic...science and the bible don't contradict each other,
where did life begin?
whats the meaning of life?
is there a God?
if so what is He like?
can I get to know God?
what happens to me when I die?
Those 6 questions science can not answer...along with a bunch of other questions.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 examine all things and hold fast to what is good.

So I examine evolution, the beginning of the universe and things of that nature and I've found that "scientist" offer more questions then they do answers.

Sounds like you've failed to understand the science.

417 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:54:05pm

re: #403 Sharmuta

More than that- if those 6 questions were to be answered, the would be more questions! And one of those questions already has a follow-up, so it's really 5 questions.

Either that, or (more likely) we wouldn't understand the answers, anyway.

42

418 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:55:13pm

re: #410 hazzyday

You're all by yourself on that idea. It won't hold up anywhere.

it's not an idea it's a fact....and I doubt I'm hardly alone...how can he be black? because he says so?...what color is his mother?

419 Summer Seale  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:55:32pm

re: #378 eon

I agree on that point. I think it's all bullshit, if you ask me. And I would be against it being taught in a classroom as "science". I'm not against teaching courses where a religion, religious philosophy, religious history, or a particular religious point of view is defined and described.

I think most of it is a waste of time anyway, but it can produce interesting results. However, keep it away from the science classrooms.

I'm a feminist and I also happen to think that "Women's Studies" is a bullshit major as well. An honest to god leftist fucking waste of time.

420 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:55:54pm

re: #399 Alberta Oil Peon

ohh I'm sorry I meant HOW did life begin?
that's a question that science has been trying to answer.

421 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:56:02pm

re: #412 Davehm

Absolutely not, I happen to know the answers to those questions because the bible answers them and looking at this world the universe and the things that go on everything to me makes perfect sense.

Why do we have hiccups?

422 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:56:41pm

re: #336 EmmmieG

Before school is one thing (yawn), but during hours when a school class should be taken is another thing, whether on school grounds or not.

What ever happened to Sunday school?

423 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:57:45pm

re: #412 Davehm

Absolutely not, I happen to know the answers to those questions because the bible answers them and looking at this world the universe and the things that go on everything to me makes perfect sense.

[Link: www.randi.org...]

424 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:58:18pm

re: #351 eon

And let's not forget the mesons. After all, this is a 34-particle universe.

While difficult to detect, mesons make a few things possible in high-energy physics that wouldn't work in their absence. To say nothing of their utility in SF writing.

cheers

eon

Higgs.

425 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:59:02pm

I'm beginning to think Bobby Jindal is part of a clever GOP plot to win the election in 2012 by making Sarah Palin look like a secular humanist.

426 wee fury  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 5:59:24pm

re: #385 Syrah

Safari utter disaster. Lost forever in the jungle -- never to be resurrected. Back to firefox.

427 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:00:12pm

re: #426 wee fury

If you're looking for a firefox alternative, well, I like Opera...

428 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:01:09pm

I am still searching for that link everyone wanted. If I cannot find it, I will go to the Cape Cod Times offices tomorrow and find it there, then post it tomorrow.

429 eon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:01:37pm

re: #388 Hobbes

So you are comfortable with the idea that there will be no Republican leader who can challenge the reelection of the Messiah?

Frankly, as long as the GOP (my party, BTW) defines the Presidential candidacy as the exclusive property of the party's Washington upper echelon, no, I don't see them being able to limit The Exalted One to a single term. George W. Bush, like Ronald Reagan before him, was a fluke- the RNC prefers that candidates for POTUS be drawn mainly from the ranks of those inside the Beltway. The Democrats have pursued similar policies for decades, the only exceptions being "outsiders" (such as governors) who will toe the party line and render obeisance to the "proper authorities", i.e., the party's voting blocs. This was how they lost Presidential elections in 1968, 1972, 1984, 1988, 2000, and 2004. This last time around, either way, it was going to be a Washington "insider", i.e., a Senator, no matter who won.

There is no fundamental difference between Obama, John Kerry, and Michael Dukakis. There are significant differences between the two Presidents named Bush. The elder represents the party's leadership. His son, like Reagan, was viewed as an interloper when he first began running for President. And as his policies have become more "acceptable" in the eyes of his party's Washington "insiders", his popularity in the wider realm has plummeted. Reagan never made the mistake of doing what the "Washington lifers" wanted him to.

The moral being, if the Republicans want to win back the White House, the last thing they want is another U.S. Senator as their standard bearer. And any governor they tap should have at least a nodding acquaintance with not doing what pleases the inside-the-Beltway crowd.

cheers

eon

430 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:01:47pm

re: #419 Summer

Actually, not only are ID and Creationism junk science, they're pretty crappy examples of theology as well. They are not worth teaching anywhere.

431 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:01:49pm

re: #428 CapeCoddah

I am still searching for that link everyone wanted. If I cannot find it, I will go to the Cape Cod Times offices tomorrow and find it there, then post it tomorrow.

OH! NOES!

THE MISSING LINK!

432 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:02:00pm

re: #426 wee fury

Safari utter disaster. Lost forever in the jungle -- never to be resurrected. Back to firefox.

I've started to use Chrome. Seems faster and cleaner and Firefox decides to really churn my HD and PC periodically for no good reason, in addition to crashing now and then.

433 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:02:09pm

re: #421 Sharmuta

Well since you asked.

What Causes Hiccups?

434 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:02:22pm

OT
I have 3 links to gazacam and none seem to be operating tonight.

I don't know how I'm going to sleep without knowing the fate of the Gaza Rooster.

435 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:02:28pm

re: #425 Kenneth

I'm beginning to think Bobby Jindal is part of a clever GOP plot to win the election in 2012 by making Sarah Palin look like a secular humanist.

ROVE YOU MAGNIFI.... Wait, nuts, those days are over. Guess I will miss the Bush era after all =/

436 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:02:55pm

re: #425 Kenneth

I'm beginning to think Bobby Jindal is part of a clever GOP plot to win the election in 2012 by making Sarah Palin look like a secular humanist.

I missed the big fuss over him....he beat out a donk...he gave a speech...looked good in an interview...had some conservative ideas...and then people are all aquiver...sounds a little like Oboy to me...Jindal is a kid with a long way to go...he's not nationwide yet...imo of course

437 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:03:13pm

Davem- here's some food for thought for you: God vs. Science is a false dichotomy.

438 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:03:29pm

re: #431 jcm

OH! NOES!

THE MISSING LINK!

's ok, I WILL find the missing link. Have no fear!

439 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:03:36pm

re: #428 CapeCoddah

I am still searching for that link everyone wanted. If I cannot find it, I will go to the Cape Cod Times offices tomorrow and find it there, then post it tomorrow.

I trust you implicitly...I'm not everyone

440 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:04:03pm

re: #437 Sharmuta

Davem- here's some food for thought for you: God vs. Science is a false dichotomy.

DING! DING! DING!

441 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:04:08pm

re: #420 Davehm

ohh I'm sorry I meant HOW did life begin?
that's a question that science has been trying to answer.

Yes, origin of life is a legitimate scientific investigation, although it should be noted that evolutionary theory does not address it.

I expect that at some future time, we will be able to observe life beginning on some other planet, or perhaps in some hitherto sterile area of our own planet, and will then be able to duplicate those conditions in the laboratory, and watch life arise under our very eyes.

Such a view is not inconsistent with the belief in a Creator, by the way.

442 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:04:11pm

re: #409 lobo91

You know, I remember the period immediately following Clinton's re-election in 1996 pretty well.

One thing I don't remember from that period, though, was anyone talking about George W. Bush as the leader of the Repblican party.

Somehow, though, he managed to win the next two elections.

Since most think Jindal 's out, who else do you think we should be looking at now?

443 Davehm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:04:25pm

re: #421 Sharmuta

swallowing air....I got to cut out I'm running late, great conversation

444 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:04:27pm

re: #432 Naso Tang

I've started to use Chrome. Seems faster and cleaner and Firefox decides to really churn my HD and PC periodically for no good reason, in addition to crashing now and then.

Firefox has been giving me viruses recently, guess I'll check that out...

445 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:04:40pm

re: #439 albusteve

I trust you implicitly...I'm not everyone

Now I want to find it. It will drive me bats until I do.

446 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:05:12pm

re: #437 Sharmuta

Davem- here's some food for thought for you: God vs. Science is a false dichotomy.

It depends.

447 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:05:28pm

re: #443 Davehm

swallowing air....I got to cut out I'm running late, great conversation

Swallowing air leads to burps. Explain hiccups and why we get them.

448 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:05:54pm

re: #430 Kenneth

Actually, not only are ID and Creationism junk science, they're pretty crappy examples of theology as well. They are not worth teaching anywhere.

Not to mention that the way they are advanced (through lying by omission) is a terrible example of how to live.

449 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:06:12pm

re: #437 Sharmuta

Davem- here's some food for thought for you: God vs. Science is a false dichotomy.

Shar - I think we're dealing with someone affected by Morton's demon:


Morton's demon is a concept that derives from Maxwell's demon and was created by ex-creationist Glenn Morton. . .
Morton proposed that a similar demon stands at the gate of the mind of creationists and other anti-evolutionists that only allows in evidence confirming their world view, and shuts out any disconfirming evidence. It is this demon that allows them to maintain their world view in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

450 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:06:13pm

re: #428 CapeCoddah

If this is the same link, a story by Pat Robertson won't hack it. If you want examples of those types of anecdotal stories, look into Ben Stine's Expelled, and then read the follow up explanations of how Ben Stein lied.

451 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:07:00pm

re: #434 reine.de.tout

Hah! What good ears you have my dear.

452 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:07:17pm

A moon bat with wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to much time on his hands...

way to much time...


453 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:07:59pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

I've not a clue what or why 'bout hiccups, but the cure: lime and bitters.

454 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:08:14pm

re: #383 Davehm

I'm just using logic...science and the bible don't contradict each other,
where did life begin?
whats the meaning of life?
is there a God?
if so what is He like?
can I get to know God?
what happens to me when I die?
Those 6 questions science can not answer...along with a bunch of other questions.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 examine all things and hold fast to what is good.

So I examine evolution, the beginning of the universe and things of that nature and I've found that "scientist" offer more questions then they do answers.

And the problem is? Science is about asking questions. However, they have to be testable questions. Not all questions are testable. It appears that your arguement is that, ...oh, never mind.

455 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:08:15pm

re: #384 albusteve

Chocolate comes from trees. The cacao bean, in fact, which is grown on a tree. There's a good kit at my favorite science stuff site which includes a couple of beans to taste.

The center had a great exhibit a few years back, which including a cut-open bean pod which the docent would show the kids and they could feel.

456 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:08:42pm

re: #442 Hobbes

Since most think Jindal 's out, who else do you think we should be looking at now?

At the moment, I have no idea, which was precisely my point.

Nobody did 3 months after the '96 election, either.

457 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:08:43pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

Swallowing air leads to burps. Explain hiccups and why we get them.

To give us something to argue about?
*cough*Phylogenetic hypothesis*cough*

458 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:09:24pm

re: #452 Dustyvet

[sigh] It's going to be a very long Long Weekend.

459 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:09:28pm

re: #455 EmmmieG

Chocolate comes from trees. The cacao bean, in fact, which is grown on a tree. There's a good kit at my favorite science stuff site which includes a couple of beans to taste.

The center had a great exhibit a few years back, which including a cut-open bean pod which the docent would show the kids and they could feel.

ahh...an international look at forestry?...that's cool

460 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:09:39pm

re: #316 albusteve

speak English...who's we?...was the poster saying Persians invented al-cohol to burn?

The ancient Greeks invented distillation, but did not do much with it. The Arabs & Persians then improved the process and used it to produce medicines, but not beverages. The process then spread to Spain & France in the 14th century where brandy was used first as a medicine, then later as a drink.

461 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:09:57pm

re: #453 IslandLibertarian

I've not a clue what or why 'bout hiccups, but the cure: lime and bitters.

Never heard that one. For me, holding my breath, repeatedly.

462 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:19pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

Swallowing air leads to burps. Explain hiccups and why we get them.

When we sneeze, our soul is trying to escape our body. Saying "God Bless You" brings it back in.

463 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:34pm

re: #461 Occasional Reader

Never heard that one. For me, holding my breath, repeatedly.

464 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:37pm

re: #443 Davehm

"I got to cut out I'm running late"

The sudden departure is another frequently displayed ID debating technique.

465 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:47pm

re: #452 Dustyvet

There's a new Religion!
It's "0" worship.
...................empty..................

466 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:49pm

re: #460 Kenneth

The ancient Greeks invented distillation, but did not do much with it. The Arabs & Persians then improved the process and used it to produce medicines, but not beverages. The process then spread to Spain & France in the 14th century where brandy was used first as a medicine, then later as a drink.

When you say "later", how many minutes do you mean?

467 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:54pm

re: #453 IslandLibertarian

I've not a clue what or why 'bout hiccups, but the cure: lime and bitters.

The answer is evolution. Hiccups are left over from amphibians needing both water and air for their oxygen needs. Pretty frickin' cool, huh?

468 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:10:59pm

re: #463 jcm

comment then post.
comment then post
D'oh!

469 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:11:00pm

re: #435 Basho

I love your avatar. Do you write haiku?

470 eon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:11:00pm

re: #448 jaunte

Not to mention that the way they are advanced (through lying by omission) is a terrible example of how to live.

And of course the inevitable argument by reason of authority, also much favored by the AGW crowd.

We say it is true! The debate is over!

And for an encore they prove that black is white, and get run down at the next zebra crossing, as it says in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy.

And speaking of being run down, I've been up since 0400. It's time for me to be in bed.

Good night, Lizards.

Continue to evolve, but stay scaly.

cheers

eon

471 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:11:05pm

re: #458 Occasional Reader

[sigh] It's going to be a very long Long Weekend.

Very long...*sigh*

472 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:11:10pm

re: #386 CapeCoddah

I do not lie, nor do I exaggerate. I would not have mentioned it if it were not the truth. It was a story in the Cape Cod times sometime in the 90's.

I do not lie, nor do I exaggerate either. However, my memory of details after many years pretty much sucks (especially with newspaper articles).

473 nyc redneck  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:11:22pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

Swallowing air leads to burps. Explain hiccups and why we get them.

swallowing air means tetrapods have crawled out on land.
amphibians.
wow
evolution!

474 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:11:52pm

re: #456 lobo91

At the moment, I have no idea, which was precisely my point.

Nobody did 3 months after the '96 election, either.

what's his name the gov of S Carolina...I like him but he seems kind of droll and unmarketable if you will...he opposes the bailouts which is good...imo

475 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:08pm

I'm tired, cranky, still fighting a low-grade cold, it's fookin' freezing outside, wife is out of town, I'm sick of the fawning pre-Coronation crap, and, hm, it seems like Hamas is being mainstreamed.

Other than that, life is grand.

How's everyone else?

476 LGoPs  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:20pm

re: #467 Sharmuta

The answer is evolution. Hiccups are left over from amphibians needing both water and air for their oxygen needs. Pretty frickin' cool, huh?

So are you sayin' we wuz all lizards at some point.....?

477 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:24pm
478 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:35pm

re: #459 albusteve

ahh...an international look at forestry?...that's cool

Yeah, beware the false statistic that was floating around a few years back. Some substantial percentage of chocolate beans are harvested with "child labor"

Key missing concept: most chocolate farms are small, family-run businesses. The children in question are the children of the farmer.

479 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:37pm

re: #448 jaunte

Not to mention that the way they are advanced (through lying by omission) is a terrible example of how to live.

Not to mention that what they are advancing requires us to refuse to use our God-given intelligence to explore the world around us, and in my opinion, that has got to be a huge insult to God.

480 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:46pm

re: #437 Sharmuta

Davem- here's some food for thought for you: God vs. Science is a false dichotomy.

Not if you're a Muslim, it isn't.

It's not a coincidence that virtually nothing of scientific value comes out of the Islamic world (other than stuff that was actually stolen from other cultures).

The basic tenets of science are contradictory to Islam.

481 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:12:47pm

re: #467 Sharmuta

The answer is evolution. Hiccups are left over from amphibians needing both water and air for their oxygen needs. Pretty frickin' cool, huh?

Oooh I did not know that. That is so awesome!

So "hiccup" is our own version of "ribbit" =D

482 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:13:17pm

re: #469 Kenneth

I love your avatar. Do you write haiku?

For my part, let me say that you have a very nice beaver.

483 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:13:23pm

"Or consider hiccups. Spasms in our diaphragms, hiccups are triggered by electric signals generated in the brain stem. Amphibian brain stems emit similar signals, which control the regular motion of their gills. Our brain stems, inherited from amphibian ancestors, still spurt out odd signals producing hiccups that are, according to Shubin, essentially the same phenomenon as gill breathing. Similarly, modern lifestyles leave us vulnerable to predispositions to obesity, heart attacks and haemorrhoids because we have the genes of hunter-gatherers who lived active, not sedentary, lives."

Neil Shubin, Your Inner Fish

484 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:13:35pm

re: #467 Sharmuta

so that explains my webbed ................

485 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:13:38pm

re: #461 Occasional Reader

Never heard that one. For me, holding my breath, repeatedly.

No.
A spoonful of sugar will cure the hiccups. Every time.

486 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:14:04pm

re: #481 Basho

Oooh I did not know that. That is so awesome!

So "hiccup" is our own version of "ribbit" =D

splitting hares eh...:)

487 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:14:09pm

re: #460 Kenneth

The ancient Greeks invented distillation, but did not do much with it. The Arabs & Persians then improved the process and used it to produce medicines, but not beverages. The process then spread to Spain & France in the 14th century where brandy was used first as a medicine, then later as a drink.

fermentation far precedes distillation...al-cohol by accident...that was my original point...it was simply discovered by dumb luck

488 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:14:18pm

re: #450 Naso Tang

If this is the same link, a story by Pat Robertson won't hack it. If you want examples of those types of anecdotal stories, look into Ben Stine's Expelled, and then read the follow up explanations of how Ben Stein lied.

This was not a story by Pat Robertson, Sheesh. Cape Cod is a small place, This was a big story here, I will ask you once nicely to cease your slyly worded accusations that I do not know what I know about the goings on in my community, where I was born and raised, where I have lived every day of my life. It was a local story, not national news. Your comments imply that I have no idea what I am talking about, or that I must be mistaken or have been fooled. It is insulting, and I am not easily insulted. The next time you make those implications, my response to you will make Mandy blush.

489 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:14:21pm

re: #477 Iron Fist

They posit the existance of anti-matter, but IIRC, they've never actually seen anti-matter.

Well, sort of, yes they have. They are "seen" in particle accelerators all the time.

490 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:14:23pm
491 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:14:59pm

If you would like to learn more about hiccups and why we have them, check out Your Inner Fish by Neil Shubin- discoverer of Tiktaalik.

492 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:15:26pm

re: #485 reine.de.tout

No.
A spoonful of sugar will cure the hiccups. Every time.

Not for me. Tried it. My amphibian lung/gills did not respond.

493 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:15:32pm

re: #448 jaunte

The fact that several prominent Christian IDers have traveled to Turkey to participate in symposia with a leading Islamic IDer is the Kiss of Death. A pox on both their houses.

494 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:15:55pm

re: #434 reine.de.tout

He is in a pot being made into a stew

495 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:03pm

re: #429 eon

The issue would seem to be whether Republicans have to give up their fundamental conservative principals in order to win again? Many inside the Beltway advise that the key to success is to move to the left. We need to test that premise. If it is true, then all is lost in perpetuity.

Cheers,

496 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:14pm

re: #484 IslandLibertarian

so that explains my webbed ................

"Be kind to your friends in the swamp, where the climate is very, very damp. A duck may be somebody's mother..."

497 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:29pm

re: #467 Sharmuta

The answer is evolution. Hiccups are left over from amphibians needing both water and air for their oxygen needs. Pretty frickin' cool, huh?

You just made that up.

Everyone knows that farting is the evolutionary leftover from breathing underwater from the ass, and from the air by mouth (before making it all the way onto land).

Hickups are what happens when one temporarily doesn't know up from down.

498 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:30pm
499 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:36pm

re: #493 Kenneth

I think the Byzantines tried that alliance once.

500 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:55pm

re: #1 songbird

Explore both, let data rule.

That's already happened, more than 100 years ago. But the creationist beast just won't die. If a buddhist or a taoist had discovered evolution, there wouldn't be such a fuss as here in our judeo-christian culture.

501 LGoPs  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:56pm

re: #487 albusteve

fermentation far precedes distillation...al-cohol by accident...that was my original point...it was simply discovered by dumb luck

I always thought it was some poor slob who left a mess of friut laying around the cave. Then when he got yelled at by his wife to clean it up he got it on his hands and licked them....and the rest is happily...history.

502 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:17:21pm

re: #494 Bubblehead II

He is in a pot being made into a stew

Nnnnoooo! Say it isn't so!

503 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:17:34pm

re: #472 unakite

I do not lie, nor do I exaggerate either. However, my memory of details after many years pretty much sucks (especially with newspaper articles).

My memory does not suck. In fact, I tend to remember too much.

504 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:17:44pm

re: #417 lobo91

Either that, or (more likely) we wouldn't understand the answers, anyway.

42

The answer to life, the universe, and everything (what is the question)?

505 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:18:43pm

re: #499 jaunte

I think the Byzantines tried that alliance once.

btw - I'm getting a lot of use out of your "Morton's demon" link.

506 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:18:54pm

re: #460 Kenneth

The ancient Greeks invented distillation, but did not do much with it. The Arabs & Persians then improved the process and used it to produce medicines, but not beverages. The process then spread to Spain & France in the 14th century where brandy was used first as a medicine, then later as a drink.

I heard that the reason beer is in widespread use throughout the world is because it was the one of the few safe things available to drink.

And no, I don't write haiku. I'm not very talented in the arts and poetry :)

507 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:19:02pm

re: #477 Iron Fist

They posit the existance of anti-matter, but IIRC, they've never actually seen anti-matter. ......

Huh? Antimatter is seen all the time in particle colliders.

508 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:19:06pm

re: #493 Kenneth

The fact that several prominent Christian IDers have traveled to Turkey to participate in symposia with a leading Islamic IDer is the Kiss of Death. A pox on both their houses.

I am compelled to wonder if perhaps the entire YEC / ID movement is nothing more than a false-flag operation on the part of militant Islam and the radical Left to sow discord amongst conservatives, and to make them look silly in the eyes of centrists.

I sure would like to have a forensic accountant go through the books of the Discovery Institute.

509 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:19:59pm

re: #466 Naso Tang

Ha! I imagine the early physicians who prescribed brandy were well acquainted with it's healing properties. I happen to be administering a healthy dram of a Scottish remedy right now.

510 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:20:24pm

re: #498 Iron Fist

It could be worse. We could have elected a malignant narcissist with delusions of godhood to be President of the United States.

Did I miss something? I thought that just happened?

511 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:20:38pm

re: #495 Hobbes

The issue would seem to be whether Republicans have to give up their fundamental conservative principals in order to win again? Many inside the Beltway advise that the key to success is to move to the left. We need to test that premise. If it is true, then all is lost in perpetuity.

Cheers,

That's why it's best not to listen to that crowd.

If the Republican Party is going to move left, then it's time for a true Conservative Party to be created. Otherwise, what's the point? You get a choice of far left or center left?

512 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:12pm

re: #132 rondeldon

Yeah, continue to teach the kids they came from monkeys and their is no meaning to life. There is no ultimate right or wrong, we only have customs, but of course every other nation has customs also. So stop complaining when a bag of chemicals in Iran decided to destroy another bag of chemicals, because they are only acting as evolution teaches. Survival of the fittest.

It's what we bags of chemicals do. We make complaint-sounds when our threat-detection systems signal that the bag in question, our own, is about to be broken.

/your model of an evolution believer

Your rhetorical device is the false dichotomy: either evolution is wrong, or there is no such thing as right and wrong and no point or purpose in life, and we might as well all just curl up in bed and block out the world.

513 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:13pm

re: #505 reine.de.tout

It's pretty helpful to explain why some of the exchanges start filling up with non-sequiturs.

514 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:36pm

re: #498 Iron Fist

Eh, give Obama a break. I'm sure he'll be a fine president.

515 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:38pm

re: #477 Iron Fist

They posit the existance of anti-matter, but IIRC, they've never actually seen anti-matter. The same is true of the graviton, a sub-atomic partical that theoretically is the causal factor in gravity. There are a lot of things about the graviton that should be true. If it exists, which theory tells us, again, that it should.

Scientists have no difficulty in believing in things that can not be touched, or seen, or felt. Basically, all sub-atomic physics involves things that can't really be seen. The best that can be done is seeing the effects of such things. We don't look at subatomic particals in a cloud chamber, but the trails that they leave as they pass through.

It is as logical to believe in a Creator as evidenced through the existance of the Creation, as it does to believe that invisible, undetectable particals control the orbit of the sun around the galaxy, the orbit of the earth around the sun, and the orbit of the moon around the Earth.

They do posit some particles. Sometimes, because secondary effects of those particles on others can be observed. (I can make conclusions about a bowling ball due the effects on the pins without ever seeing a bowling ball) Or in some case as a "place holder" to allow a theory to work until an actual observation can be made. The "place holder" isn't a WAG, it's supported by lots of equations and experimental data.

My faith tells me creation is evidence of a Creator.

I don't know how to use the secondary effect, creation; to generate a hypothesis of a Creator. To me, at least a Creator would au priori exist out side and separate from creation. While we are limited to and confined by creation. But I can't make the leap, or come up with any way in my feeble brain to begin to show scientifically the existence of a creator.

516 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:22:50pm

Gotta run.
Back later.

517 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:22:50pm

re: #498 Iron Fist

Yeah right, as if the US voter could be fooled by such an obvious fraud. Ha!

518 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:23:36pm

re: #511 lobo91

That's why it's best not to listen to that crowd.

If the Republican Party is going to move left, then it's time for a true Conservative Party to be created. Otherwise, what's the point? You get a choice of far left or center left?

I agree.

519 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:24:29pm

re: #431 jcm

OH! NOES!

THE MISSING LINK!

ROTFLMAO!

520 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:24:48pm
521 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:25:36pm

re: #514 Basho

Eh, give Obama a break. I'm sure he'll be a fine president.

Is your "/" broken?

522 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:25:58pm

re: #509 Kenneth

Ha! I imagine the early physicians who prescribed brandy were well acquainted with it's healing properties. I happen to be administering a healthy dram of a Scottish remedy right now.

get well soon!

523 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:26:09pm

re: #507 Naso Tang

Positrons, for example, are anti-matter electrons. They are common enough to be used in hospitals in PET Scan machines. Recently, somebody made an anti-matter version of a hydrogen atoms, with a positron orbiting an anti-proton.

524 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:26:17pm

re: #502 reine.de.tout

Don't know for sure. But after monitoring last nights gazacam, it seemed to be in a loop. The fire behind that high rise kept repeating itself as well as the crowing. I think they got taken out earlier and ran out of footage to show so they have shut it down. Though I could be wrong.

525 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:28:05pm

re: #453 IslandLibertarian

I've not a clue what or why 'bout hiccups, but the cure: lime and bitters.

Lemon and bitters works for me.

526 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:29:10pm

re: #499 jaunte

Yes, and that's what did them in.

527 Dustyvet  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:31:33pm

re: #517 Kenneth

Yeah right, as if the US voter could be fooled by such an obvious fraud. Ha!

528 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:33:46pm
529 Boxy_brown  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:34:45pm

re: #511 lobo91

If the Republican Party is going to move left, then it's time for a true Conservative Party to be created. Otherwise, what's the point? You get a choice of far left or center left?


Nothing like splitting the Republican party to keep the democrats in power. If the conservatives were to break off from the republican party that would push the party, and the country to the left. We need to stop calling each other RINO's and work on electing competent people who wont screw up.

Unfortunately (It's really, really too bad) Jindal has made himself DOA.

530 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:35:59pm

re: #520 Iron Fist

Your eye does not directly `see` things, only the effects of things. A photon bounces off an object, travels a distance, strikes a cone or rod in your retina, an electro-chemical signal is transmitted along your optic nerve to your brain, which interprets what you 'see'. The detectors used in particle physics are essentially the same sort of thing (cloud chambers are very outdated nowadays).

531 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:37:05pm

re: #477 Iron Fist

It is as logical to believe in a Creator as evidenced through the existance of the Creation, as it does to believe that invisible, undetectable particals control the orbit of the sun around the galaxy, the orbit of the earth around the sun, and the orbit of the moon around the Earth.

The Creator created the "invisible, undetectable particals control the orbit of the sun around the galaxy, the orbit of the earth around the sun, and the orbit of the moon around the Earth." And then let them go on their merry way.

532 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:38:52pm

re: #527 Dustyvet

I tought I taw a putty tat!

533 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:44:09pm

re: #528 Iron Fist

Particle accelerators can be designed to produce anti-matter. Certain collisions always produce a few anti-matter particles. The Anti-Matter Factory is a new experiment at CERN built to do just that.

534 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:44:21pm

re: #528 Iron Fist

Sorry, but in nuclear physics antimatter is as real as matter, and has been demonstrated as such, and created routinely in particle accelerators since the dawn of nuclear physics.

I suggest you do some googling if interested.

535 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:44:52pm
536 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:45:18pm

re: #529 Boxy_brown

Nothing like splitting the Republican party to keep the democrats in power. If the conservatives were to break off from the republican party that would push the party, and the country to the left. We need to stop calling each other RINO's and work on electing competent people who wont screw up.

Unfortunately (It's really, really too bad) Jindal has made himself DOA.

Personally,I don't think it's too much to ask that people who run for office with an R next to their name have actually read the party platform, and support most of it.

I realize that the Democrats have no core principles, and maily exist as a coalition of different left-wing single-issue groups, but if that's what Republicans are going to become, I, for one, am out the door.

I voted for "not Obama" this year, and that's it. I'm not doing it again.

537 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:46:11pm

re: #531 unakite

It is as logical to believe in a Creator as evidenced through the existance of the Creation, as it does to believe that invisible, undetectable particals control the orbit of the sun around the galaxy, the orbit of the earth around the sun, and the orbit of the moon around the Earth.

The Creator created the "invisible, undetectable particals control the orbit of the sun around the galaxy, the orbit of the earth around the sun, and the orbit of the moon around the Earth." And then let them go on their merry way.

But did he tell you so, personally, or are you taking a wild leap of faith? IE guessing.

538 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:50:51pm

re: #535 Iron Fist

The current theoretical particle about what gives matter mass, and hence gravity, is the Higgs boson. The Higgs has never been detected, but it is expected the LHC will find them when they get it running.The had a bit of a false start in September. They plan to start it again in the spring. Maybe then they will find the Higgs... or maybe not. That's when it get's really interesting!

539 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:54:20pm
540 unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:55:09pm

re: #537 Naso Tang

But did he tell you so, personally, or are you taking a wild leap of faith? IE guessing.

Sorry, forgot the /

541 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:07:47pm

re: #539 Iron Fist

Cosmic particle observations have routinely detected anti-matter particles. These are 'in the wild' naturally occurring collisions which have been occurring since the beginning of the universe. One of the really interesting questions in physics is called CP Violation, which refers to the fact the universe has so much more matter than anti-matter. At the present time, there is no satisfactory answer as to why. Many theories, but no conclusive answer.

542 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:15:01pm
543 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:12pm

re: #539 Iron Fist

This may come as a shock to you, but the "dawn of nuclear physics" is less than a hundred years ago.

Yes. Your point?


I'm not seeing where you can find antimatter "in the wild". Certainly it can be created. That's kind of my point.

That kind of wasn't the point made, but if it can be created here, it can be created out there. The question is why there was more matter than antimatter in the "beginning", but it might be the other way around and we wouldn't know the difference, if you get my point.


And all of that ducks the question of gravity.

No it doesn't duck it. That is another question, and Kenneth has addressed it in essence.

544 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:34pm

re: #161 jcm

1) Evolution doesn't say man came monkey's. BZZZT.
2) Science is mute on the meaning of life. BZZZT.
3) Science is mute on morality. BZZZT
4) Sociology is a different subject. BZZZT.
5) A bag of chemicals is inanimate. BZZZT.
6) Evolution teach about mutation, and adaption of a species. Not conscious choices of an individual(s). BZZZT.

BZZZZT
FAIL!

1. The point is not the specific animal, but that we descended from some lower life form by chance. Therefore we have no more objective meaning or purpose than what we descended from based on survival of the fittest.

2. Not only is mute, but if evolution is true than there is no objective meaning to life. Objectively our lives can't mean anything more than maggots.

3. Yes, science is mute of morality and evolutionist can only subjectively try to create morality, but what makes your creation of morality superior to the pedophile?

4. Yeah, it is, but the teaching of evolution still has logical consequences.

5. Well you should explain how life ultimately came from inanimate stuff?

6. Yes, which is the problem. Based on evolution there is not objective morality. One bag of chemicals has not right to say what another bag of chemicals does is wrong. Is it morally wrong when a male liion enters a pride and kills all the babies of a another male?

545 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:13pm

Oh brother.

546 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:16pm

re: #512 lostlakehiker

It's what we bags of chemicals do. We make complaint-sounds when our threat-detection systems signal that the bag in question, our own, is about to be broken.

/your model of an evolution believer

OK, but what about the system of the bag of chemicals that is saying survival of the fittest? The strongest and superior should survive. Seems like Hitler was being consistent.


Your rhetorical device is the false dichotomy: either evolution is wrong, or there is no such thing as right and wrong and no point or purpose in life, and we might as well all just curl up in bed and block out the world.

You have asserted it is a false dichotomy but you did nothing to prove it was. If all life came from the same simple organism by chance then there is ultimate right or wrong, unless you are willing to argue that there is right and wrong with actions being taken by every other life form around us. In other words, if there was not right and wrong at the very beginning you can't logical interject an objective right and wrong some billions of years later.

547 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:30:46pm

re: #542 Iron Fist

Let's try this again (dingos ate my first response to you :-)

I['ve been saying for some time that the "we don't suck as bad as the Democrats do" strategy wasn't going to continue to win elections. I'm not sure where we go from here, though. Yes, we can stay home. That's what happened in '06. The Democrats find that to be a very acceptible solution. If it gets bad enough, they can win 80% of the vote in very low turnout elections, and they will claim to have a "mandate" to rape those of us who didn't vote for them to pay those who did.

That is a suboptimal solution. The Republicans have to do better. That said, I'm not sure how we go about forcing them to do better. We elected them in 1994 with a real mandate to bring about real change (Change you can believe in :-), and they never really delivered. but third parties are a non-starter. Perot got more votes than any third-party candidate ever has, and all he really did was tip the vote in favor of Clinton.

Oops.

These next two years are going to likely be very bad. Obama isn't going to stop that. In fact, he'll probably make things worse. And America's enemies aren't going to sit around and wait for us to get our shit together. The Democrats will plod along the way to Socialist utopia, and the rest of us are going to have to step quickly to stay out of the shit.

I'm feeling pretty pessimistic. And Obama takes office next Teusday.

I said there should be an actual conservative paty, not that it has to be a third one. There have pretty much always been two major parties, but they haven't always been called what they are today.

If the RINOs want to be Democrat-lite, let them merge with the actual Dems. The rest of us, and the not-insignificant number of conservative Democrats, can form a new Conservative Party to replace the increasingly-faux one we have now.

Seems like it would be pretty much of a wash, to me, as far as actual numbers go.

548 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:31:16pm

re: #544 rondeldon

1. The point is not the specific animal, but that we descended from some lower life form by chance. Therefore we I have no more objective meaning or purpose than what we descended from based on survival of the fittest.

2. Not only is mute, but if evolution is true than there is no objective meaning to my life. Objectively our lives my life can't mean anything more than maggots.

3. Yes, science is mute of morality and evolutionist can only subjectively try to create morality, but what makes your creation of morality superior to the pedophile? (That is self evident to me. I am sorry that it is not to you).

4. Yeah, it is, but the teaching of evolution still has logical consequences. (Any truth has logical consequences, but not all are imagined).

5. Well you should explain how life ultimately came from inanimate stuff? (There are plenty of very solid theories on that and you may well live to see them proven. There could be more than one method. However, that by itself says nothing about how the process went afterwards, which is all that evolution explains)

6. Yes, which is the problem. Based on evolution there is not objective morality. One bag of chemicals has not right to say what another bag of chemicals does is wrong. Is it morally wrong when a male liion enters a pride and kills all the babies of a another male? (Are you aware of the distinction between what we call sentient life and non sentient life?)

549 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:40:05pm

re: #548 Naso Tang


6. Yes, which is the problem. Based on evolution there is not objective morality. One bag of chemicals has not right to say what another bag of chemicals does is wrong. Is it morally wrong when a male liion enters a pride and kills all the babies of a another male? (Are you aware of the distinction between what we call sentient life and non sentient life?)

Yes, I'm aware of sentient and non-sentient life. Is your argument that it is morally wrong for male lions to kill sentient baby cubs of another male?

550 Syrah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:42:31pm

re: #426 wee fury

Safari utter disaster. Lost forever in the jungle -- never to be resurrected. Back to firefox.

Its different. I don't know if I would call it a disaster. I prefer FireFox too.

Are you running a P4 system or better?

551 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:43:56pm

re: #546 rondeldon

You have asserted it is a false dichotomy but you did nothing to prove it was. If all life came from the same simple organism by chance then there is ultimate right or wrong, unless you are willing to argue that there is right and wrong with actions being taken by every other life form around us. In other words, if there was not right and wrong at the very beginning you can't logical interject an objective right and wrong some billions of years later.

So- unless amoebas have a sense of right and wrong, no one can have a sense of right and wrong?

Animals and other life forms are still concerned with survival- they have not evolved to the point of rationalizing other aspects of their existence. In this case, human's are unique. I also think the reasons why humans have a sense of right and wrong can be found in our evolutionary history. We're a social creature. This aspect of our nature would lead towards sympathizing with our fellow humans, and lead to morality questions concerning what is right and wrong. Of course- if we were still in a daily struggle to feed ourselves with no other real priority, right and wrong would probably take a back burner.

But I think in your world view, it's not possible for humans to have a sense of right or wrong unless Genesis is literal, right?

552 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:45:18pm

re: #549 rondeldon

Yes, I'm aware of sentient and non-sentient life. Is your argument that it is morally wrong for male lions to kill sentient baby cubs of another male?

Are you suggesting that the sentient cubs were a punctuated evolutionary step from a non sentient lion parent?

553 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:48:58pm

re: #308 Davehm

If I were to believe that humans were made in the image of God I would treat and look at people a lot differently then if they were just animals.

Which really says a whole lot more about your personal character than it does about the character of anyone else. Folks who espouse such positions (as you have here) posses what I consider "situational ethics".

If not for (the belief in) the presence of a judgmental Creator, and (the belief in) the threat of eternal damnation, what reason is there to behave in a way that is beneficial not only to society, but also to one's own self? Why not act like an animal? Situational ethics.

There are a great many reasons why one should behave in a decent and respectful manner that benefits yourself and society at large, but if your faith is your only reason for you not to behave like a bloodthirsty beast, then I am grateful that you have whatever faith you have. Otherwise...

I watch my back quite carefully around people who talk like you, because I never know when they may be challenged with a "test of faith", and fail.

554 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:55:46pm

"Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'Every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto! I looked them up!"
— A Fish Called Wanda

555 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:57:04pm

re: #554 jaunte

One of my all time favorite comedies.

556 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:58:13pm

re: #555 Sharmuta

"What was the middle thing?"

557 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:02:56pm

re: #313 Charles

The Penn and Teller BS show on exorcism is great -- just discovered it's on iTunes:

[Link: itunes.apple.com...]

A non-Apple link for Apple haters (or people like me who simply don't have iTunes):

Penn & Teller: Bullshit - Exorcism, Pt. 1

558 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:04:49pm

re: #314 Sharmuta

We are animals- we're mammals.

Now you've done it!

559 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:09:14pm

re: #549 rondeldon

Yes, I'm aware of sentient and non-sentient life. Is your argument that it is morally wrong for male lions to kill sentient baby cubs of another male?

You're putting the cart before the horse. They have not evolved beyond the point of self-conscience past survival. They are still living to eat and reproduce- to survive. Humans have evolved beyond that point.

But I'm wondering- do right and wrong exist before you're conscience of them?

560 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:13:06pm

re: #559 Sharmuta

Right and wrong choices require free will, consciousness, and ability to conceive of the future.

561 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:15:56pm
562 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:25:35pm

re: #551 Sharmuta

So- unless amoebas have a sense of right and wrong, no one can have a sense of right and wrong?


Yes, if evolution is true. It is survival of the fittest. Might makes right, not morality.


Animals and other life forms are still concerned with survival- they have not evolved to the point of rationalizing other aspects of their existence. In this case, human's are unique.


Yes, per evolution animals are concerned with their own survival and even at the expense of other animals. Humans are more unique than other animals is analogous to a monkey being more unique than a single cell, but this uniqueness does not lead to objective morality.


I also think the reasons why humans have a sense of right and wrong can be found in our evolutionary history. We're a social creature. This aspect of our nature would lead towards sympathizing with our fellow humans, and lead to morality questions concerning what is right and wrong. Of course- if we were still in a daily struggle to feed ourselves with no other real priority, right and wrong would probably take a back burner.


Yes, but based on evolutionary principles it is about survival of the fittest. So why would it be morally wrong for one social group of humans to strategically destroy other groups if it promotes their group surviving?


But I think in your world view, it's not possible for humans to have a sense of right or wrong unless Genesis is literal, right?

No, not necessarily that Genesis is right, but that we are not here by chance through a blind evolutionary process. So in my world view if evolution is right than there "should not" be a concept of right or wrong in humans any more than there is right or wrong in the rest of the animal kingdom.

563 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:29:31pm

re: #559 Sharmuta

You're putting the cart before the horse. They have not evolved beyond the point of self-conscience past survival. They are still living to eat and reproduce- to survive. Humans have evolved beyond that point.

But I'm wondering- do right and wrong exist before you're conscience of them?

If right and wrong is to have any objective meaning then yes. Otherwise, we are all in a subjective standoff. The rapist, pedophile, and murderer can claim they are morally right as much as you can claim they are morally wrong.

564 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:29:54pm

re: #562 rondeldon

You should realize that you are dictating your beliefs, while pretending to make an argument to disguise that, and simultaneously suggesting that you are morally superior to those who think you are full of shit.

Oh, did I mention boring? Ding dong.

565 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:30:29pm

Falling asleep at the wheel here. Nite.

566 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:37:19pm

re: #562 rondeldon

You realize none of your questioning changes a single fact supporting evolutionary theory. You can question and deny all you want, but you are denying the facts.

567 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:37:43pm

re: #562 rondeldon

Yes, but based on evolutionary principles it is about survival of the fittest. So why would it be morally wrong for one social group of humans to strategically destroy other groups if it promotes their group surviving?

The IDF is strategically destroying Hamas to promote their survival. I think that's kind of morally right.

568 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:44:45pm

re: #563 rondeldon

If right and wrong is to have any objective meaning then yes. Otherwise, we are all in a subjective standoff. The rapist, pedophile, and murderer can claim they are morally right as much as you can claim they are morally wrong.

So- an infant human child knows instinctively what is right and what is wrong or does their brain develop the capacity for them to understand those concepts at a later age?

569 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:50:12pm

re: #566 Sharmuta

You realize none of your questioning changes a single fact supporting evolutionary theory. You can question and deny all you want, but you are denying the facts.

What my questioning is attempting to show is that evolutionist are not logically consistent with their theory and principles. If you believe it is all brute facts then embrace the survival of the fittest and the might-makes-right principal of evolution. Quit borrowing from a world view that is antithetical to yours where there is objective right and wrong.

570 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:52:22pm

re: #569 rondeldon

If you act on "might makes right" in a social group, the rest of the group will let you know that you're wrong. The penalty was death for a long time, now it might simply be prison.

571 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:59:54pm

re: #568 Sharmuta

So- an infant human child knows instinctively what is right and what is wrong or does their brain develop the capacity for them to understand those concepts at a later age?

There is learning of what is "right and wrong" in children, but that isn't the point. The point is, is this morally objective or just some artificial subjective concept. For example when the Jihadist teach their children it is right to kill Jews does that make it right? If not, then it demonstrates teaching your children to believe something is right or wrong does not make it so.

572 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:05:46pm

re: #569 rondeldon

Quit borrowing from a world view that is antithetical to yours where there is objective right and wrong.

First of all- you have no idea what my world view is. Is leaping to conclusions and making wild assumptions about other people right or wrong?

Second- I think denying my God given intellect is wrong. Denying reality is wrong. Denying that humanity's ideas of right and wrong has evolved over the centuries is wrong. At one point, people didn't think slavery was wrong. Does that somehow prove right and wrong don't exist? Perhaps it proves the evolution of human consciousness that slavery was once considered normal but is now considered wrong.

573 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:07:15pm

re: #570 jaunte

If you act on "might makes right" in a social group, the rest of the group will let you know that you're wrong. The penalty was death for a long time, now it might simply be prison.

Not necessarily true. All dictators tend to use "might makes right". Some times the majority group uses might over the minority.. You will disagree with a social group(i.e. Islam ) belief even if the majority of the members agree. Why is your view superior to theirs or anyone's if we live our lives based on evolutionary principles?

574 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:08:47pm

re: #544 rondeldon

You're missing the concept of the soul and how it relates to evolution. How does sin work with evolutionary theory?

575 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:09:45pm

re: #573 rondeldon

You may be confusing a scientific theory with a moral philosophy.
This is a category error.

576 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:12:44pm

re: #572 Sharmuta

First of all- you have no idea what my world view is. Is leaping to conclusions and making wild assumptions about other people right or wrong?


In my worldview it is wrong. So I apologize if I assumed to much.


Second- I think denying my God given intellect is wrong. Denying reality is wrong. Denying that humanity's ideas of right and wrong has evolved over the centuries is wrong. At one point, people didn't think slavery was wrong. Does that somehow prove right and wrong don't exist? Perhaps it proves the evolution of human consciousness that slavery was once considered normal but is now considered wrong.

I agree with much of what you say here. I agree that the human concept of what is wrong and right may evolve, but that is what is scary, because you can't alway assume it will evolve in the right way. That is why I believe in objective right or wrong regardless of what humans think at any point in history as they waffle back and forth.

577 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:17:17pm

re: #574 hazzyday

You're missing the concept of the soul and how it relates to evolution. How does sin work with evolutionary theory?

Didn't know there was such a thing in evolutionary theory, unless you are using the phrase differently than what I'm thinking.

578 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:21:50pm

re: #576 rondeldon

I agree that the human concept of what is wrong and right may evolve, but that is what is scary, because you can't alway assume it will evolve in the right way.

Evolution teaches that it is beneficial mutations that survive. Bad mutations and/or the inability to adapt to pressures lead to death and extinction.

So- human consciousness has retained the beneficial and adapted when need arose.

579 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:23:24pm

re: #571 rondeldon

There is learning of what is "right and wrong" in children, but that isn't the point. The point is, is this morally objective or just some artificial subjective concept. For example when the Jihadist teach their children it is right to kill Jews does that make it right? If not, then it demonstrates teaching your children to believe something is right or wrong does not make it so.

Your argument does not necessarily support your conclusion. Teaching my children 2+2=5 (wrong) does not make it so. Just because I (might) teach my children something that is wrong does not "demonstrate" that someone else is not teaching their children correctly.

580 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:44:00pm

re: #569 rondeldon

You sure have a confused view of evolutionary theory.

What my questioning is attempting to show is that evolutionist are not logically consistent with their theory and principles.


That is because there is no connection. A theory is an explanation of events, which when repeated and tested, provides a world view and an explaination of events. It then becomes accepted. Combine the observations with the genetic evaluations and you now have not just a theory by a theory with many aspects that have been proven.

A person principles are not being discussed.


If you believe it is all brute facts then embrace the survival of the fittest and the might-makes-right principal of evolution. Quit borrowing from a world view that is antithetical to yours where there is objective right and wrong.

Belief has nothing to do with any of this. The primative world is/was a dangerous place for all living things. (not a principle, a fact.) Thus IN THAT WORLD the most fit survived, and along with them their genetic code survived. (Again not a principle, not a human desired world view, a Fact.)
It is not 'embracing the survival of the fittest,' it identifying how that world exists.
You keep wanting to put your belief system into scientific fact. It doesn't work that way.

581 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:44:52pm

re: #573 rondeldon

Not necessarily true. All dictators tend to use "might makes right". Some times the majority group uses might over the minority.. You will disagree with a social group(i.e. Islam ) belief even if the majority of the members agree. Why is your view superior to theirs or anyone's if we live our lives based on evolutionary principles?

Because evolutionary principles would say that which is beneficial to the species survives, and that which is harmful or rigid goes extinct. Human consciousness has evolved from at one point having a tribal chief, king, dictator, etc. as the preferred system of government to that of democracy and individual rights. This is because democracy and individual rights have shown a positive benefit to the species, where as dictators have tended to be harmful. The concept of individual rights survives because it has allowed human consciousness to expand on our ideas of that which is morally right and wrong- such as slavery. Tyranny promotes the opposite and has been repeatedly found to harm the species. So- by evolutionary principles, it would seem to benefit our species to combat that which is harmful to it.

582 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:01:02pm

re: #579 Unakite

Your argument does not necessarily support your conclusion. Teaching my children 2+2=5 (wrong) does not make it so. Just because I (might) teach my children something that is wrong does not "demonstrate" that someone else is not teaching their children correctly.

I agree and that is my point. My point is that there is objective right and wrong regardless of what some one subjectively believes. Now my ultimate point is that based on evolution there is no ultimate right or wrong. Every culture, society, and individual makes up their own subjective morality. So those who embrace evolution should quit trying to speak as if their views are somehow objectively true contra Jihadists' views.

583 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:05:18pm

re: #582 rondeldon

"Those who embrace evolution" will choose to ignore your "should" and speak as they will, without consequence. So your statement is null.

584 rondeldon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:13:38pm

re: #581 Sharmuta

Because evolutionary principles would say that which is beneficial to the species survives, and that which is harmful or rigid goes extinct. Human consciousness has evolved from at one point having a tribal chief, king, dictator, etc. as the preferred system of government to that of democracy and individual rights.


Human consciousness was evolved also when they believed slavery was right. What you believe is right or wrong today maybe different tomorrow. You are proving my point when you argue for what is right or wrong evolving. There is no objective right or wrong. So today even though we condemn Islam if they win the war on terror then tomorrow their views could be dominate and I guess right?


This is because democracy and individual rights have shown a positive benefit to the species, where as dictators have tended to be harmful.


The driving force is not necessarily survival of the species but survival of self and clan. A lion pride doesn't care if all other lions are killed as long as their clan survives. Hitler wanted all Jews to be extinct. Today Muslims don't care if all non-Muslims are extinct. There isn't a concern for the human species per se, but a certain clan of the human species. And there are some forms of government that promotes the survival of a clan over the total species in general.


The concept of individual rights survives because it has allowed human consciousness to expand on our ideas of that which is morally right and wrong- such as slavery. Tyranny promotes the opposite and has been repeatedly found to harm the species. So- by evolutionary principles, it would seem to benefit our species to combat that which is harmful to it.

But wouldn't it benefit our species if we killed all the sick, diseased, weak, and intellectually inferior humans? The strong survives and makes the species stronger! That was Hitler's view because he was more consistent with living out the theory of evolution.

585 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:13:42pm

re: #582 rondeldon

Your problem is you fail to understand evolution so you cannot understand it's principles, though you think you do.

The jihadis are under evolutionary pressure as we speak. They are either going to adapt a more species beneficial way of life, or they are going to go extinct. The evolution of the human conscience is such that we have found freedom, democracy and individual rights to be more beneficial to our species than tyranny. Survival of the fittest indeed. The victory of tyrants is fleeting.

Though I believe in God, I do not need faith to lead me to believe who is right and who is wrong in the conflict of the west and islam. I've shown I can use evolutionary principles to defend freedom.

586 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:18:11pm

re: #584 rondeldon

You've now Godwined yourself to GAZE.

587 Rustler  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 11:31:17pm

re: #586 Sharmuta
He Godwinned himself far earlier hun. Post 546 about 4 hours ago.

588 Rustler  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 11:33:50pm

re: #584 rondeldon Hitler Didn't apply evolution in his Eugenics anyway. He utilized Animal Husbandry as established by the Greeks in his Eugenics program. Darwin and his books weren't well recieved by Hilter.

589 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 5:26:35am
590 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 6:44:51am

re: #488 CapeCoddah

This was not a story by Pat Robertson, Sheesh. Cape Cod is a small place, This was a big story here, I will ask you once nicely to cease your slyly worded accusations that I do not know what I know about the goings on in my community, where I was born and raised, where I have lived every day of my life. It was a local story, not national news. Your comments imply that I have no idea what I am talking about, or that I must be mistaken or have been fooled. It is insulting, and I am not easily insulted. The next time you make those implications, my response to you will make Mandy blush.

I missed your reply last night.

If you are still reading, I have no doubt you are sincere in your belief of this story, but I doubt it because I suspect the kid was doing more than quietly reading a book, The Bible, at times when he would have been allowed to be reading say, The Lone Ranger.

Any kid who regularly reads the bible in a school hallway has a problem with social norms and most likely manifests it in other ways.

In any case, I do not see evidence of conspiracy against Christianity anywhere, I see only evidence of over sensitivity to any form of critique or alleged lack of respect. If this kid was really unfairly treated in some way, it proves nothing.

591 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 6:54:11am

Darwin's books were banned by the nazis. But to trying to pin the nazi's final solution on Darwin is the worst sort of historical revisionism. Much easier to blame science than it is to study the real root causes of nazism, because blaming Darwin for it also gives the nice, comforting feeling that evolution is bad and thus confirms one's pre-existing worldview. It's disgusting, it's Holocaust revisionism, and it's an insult to the memory of those killed by the nazis to pawn it off on Darwin. Shame on you.

592 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:14:58am

re: #553 Slumbering Behemoth


I think your really twisting things here...situation ethics is what someone practices to save their skin another phrase for it is moral relativism.

The fact is that God has given us knowledge of Him and His truth,
the prefix "con" (Latin) means with,
the word "science" means knowledge...this is where we get the word conscience, we don't need someone to tell us when we mess up, we know right and wrong.

593 Nemesis6  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:47:59am

I'm confused, how did this get passed? Shouldn't the supreme court jump on these guys like Creationists on a quote-mine? It should take just one lawsuit to stop this, and it seems like the only reason they haven't had their shit shut down is that nobody's stepped up to the plate yet.

594 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:53:14am

re: #592 Davehm

I think your really twisting things here...situation ethics is what someone practices to save their skin another phrase for it is moral relativism.

The fact is that God has given us knowledge of Him and His truth,
the prefix "con" (Latin) means with,
the word "science" means knowledge...this is where we get the word conscience, we don't need someone to tell us when we mess up, we know right and wrong.

There seems to be a contradiction here. Are you not saying that you would not know right and wrong if you hadn't been told, by God?

595 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:54:43am

re: #593 Nemesis6

I'm confused, how did this get passed? Shouldn't the supreme court jump on these guys like Creationists on a quote-mine? It should take just one lawsuit to stop this, and it seems like the only reason they haven't had their shit shut down is that nobody's stepped up to the plate yet.

Wait for it. There will be more education money wasted on lawsuits in due course.

596 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:12:10pm

re: #584 rondeldon

But wouldn't it benefit our species if we killed all the sick, diseased, weak, and intellectually inferior humans? The strong survives and makes the species stronger! That was Hitler's view because he was more consistent with living out the theory of evolution.

That makes sense hypothetically. But the data shows that the most successful societies are those that care and support the sick, diseased, and weak.

597 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:25:58pm

re: #573 rondeldon

Not necessarily true. All dictators tend to use "might makes right". Some times the majority group uses might over the minority.. You will disagree with a social group(i.e. Islam ) belief even if the majority of the members agree. Why is your view superior to theirs or anyone's if we live our lives based on evolutionary principles?

There have been many human societies that have been lost because they couldn't survive a natural disaster or an invasion by more powerful forces. Many believe that the extinction of the Neanderthals are due to encounters with humans.

It's a fact of life that one's civilization could be lost forever. Everything that is valuable must be defended at all costs. Whether there is a god or not, the fact is that it won't interfere if the bad guys ever get the upper hand. That's just something humans have to deal with.

The test of any great society is survival first and foremost.

598 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:27:07pm

re: #592 Davehm

You are the one twisting things here, sir. Situational ethics is not what one does to save their skin (nor is moral relativism, for that matter). SE, at least as I define it, is a system of ethics that one changes as the situations around them change.

One example would be a person who would steal something when with a friend that they know would condone it, then deplore that same action when with a friend that they know does not condone such things.

Another example would be to behave in a kind, responsible, respectful manner when you believe in the presence of a judgmental god and the threat of eternal damnation, and then behaving like a criminal monster when you no longer have such a belief, as you insinuated you would do in your post above.

Moral relativism is a whole different ball of wax, not at all the same as situational ethics. I dare say that you are not employing much in the way of logic or critical thinking in your reasoning.

599 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:23:35pm

re: #598 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't see a big difference in your examples, bottom line is both are used by people to save their skin... moral relativism "oh I didn't know that was wrong"
situation ethics "depends on what the meaning of is is"

600 Lanaty  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 4:45:08pm

re: #579 Unakite

Your argument does not necessarily support your conclusion. Teaching my children 2+2=5 (wrong) does not make it so. Just because I (might) teach my children something that is wrong does not "demonstrate" that someone else is not teaching their children correctly.


[Link: www.thinkgeek.com...]

601 unakite  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 6:26:24pm

re: #600 Lanaty

I don't know if you'll get back to read this, but thanks. I got a chuckle out of that. I had a watch one time that told relative time. The numbers said 1-ish, 2-ish, 3-ish,...

602 Mr Secul  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 11:41:29am

re: #551 Sharmuta

We're a social creature. This aspect of our nature would lead towards sympathizing with our fellow humans, and lead to morality questions concerning what is right and wrong.

I'd take this with a pinch of salt but its still interesting.


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