Creationist Hearings Scheduled in Texas

Science • Views: 3,396

With Louisiana breaking their way (for the moment) the Discovery Institute’s next playground is in Texas, where they’re gearing up to promote their new “intelligent design” book (Explore Evolution) with the help of the State Board of Education: The Evolution Vs. God Debate Is Being Renewed In Texas.

Just in case you were worried that Texas hadn’t made an embarrassing spectacle of itself lately, you need fret no more.

Once again the State Board of Education is coming to your rescue.

The SBOE is holding a public hearing January 21 on science standards, and the people at the Discovery Institute, who think Intelligent Design blows away that whole stoopid “evolution” theory, are happy as unevolved clams.

“We’re very pleased that in this Darwin bicentennial year Texas has invited scientists on both sides of the evolution debate to testify about the scientific status of Darwin’s theory,” said Dr. John West, associate director of Discovery Institute’s Center for Science & Culture, in a statement released today.

It’s NOT about God, in case you’re curious. Questioning evolution is all about teaching kids to be better students.

“Previously, these scientists have advised the SBOE that good science education should encourage students to learn the scientific facts and engage in more critical thinking than they would under the currently proposed [standards],” the Discovery Institute’s release says.

We assume these people will also call for standard that demand critical thinking in the theory of the boiling temperature of water and whether gravity makes things go up or down.

January 21, folks. In Austin. Bring popcorn and enjoy the show.

Jump to bottom

556 comments
1 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:32pm

TWO evolution threads in a row?

Hot day-um!

2 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:43pm

Oh for the love of...give it a rest already!
Who's funding the Discovery Institute? Don't they have better things to do with their money and time?

3 quickjustice  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:16:55pm

There's a yellow rose in Texas, but it existed in the Garden of Eden as well! ;-)

4 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:18:51pm
“Previously, these scientists have advised the SBOE that good science education should encourage students to learn the scientific facts and engage in more critical thinking than they would under the currently proposed [standards],” the Discovery Institute’s release says.

The Discovery Institute wouldn't know scientific facts if it bit them in the ass.

5 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:19:03pm
people at the Discovery Institute, who think Intelligent Design blows away that whole stoopid “evolution” theory, are happy as unevolved clams.

Would Jewish creationists instead be "oysters"?

(Get it? Oy-sters? Ahhh, never mind)

6 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:19:39pm

re: #1 Occasional Reader

TWO evolution threads in a row?

Hot day-um!

Involving TWO states right next door to each other?

there's a connection there somewhere, I'm sure of it.

7 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:19:57pm

They've forgotten what a thrashing they got in Dover and in Cobb. Suggestion: check in with The Panda's Thumb for nationwide updates on the battle against creationism, in all its guises.

8 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:20:01pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Would Jewish creationists instead be "oysters"?

(Get it? Oy-sters? Ahhh, never mind)

That's qelippot, amigo.

9 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:20:38pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Would Jewish creationists instead be "oysters"?

(Get it? Oy-sters? Ahhh, never mind)

The rest of us would be goysters.

10 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:20:52pm

re: #7 The Sanity Inspector

They've forgotten what a thrashing they got in Dover and in Cobb. Suggestion: check in with The Panda's Thumb for nationwide updates on the battle against creationism, in all its guises.

Are you saying that creationism adapts to its environment, taking on protective coverings, mimicking other types, etc?

11 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:09pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

The Discovery Institute wouldn't know scientific facts if it bit them in the ass.

You could almost use them to threaten misbehaving children: "If you don't learn the difference between what's true, and what you wish were true, you will become a creationist!"

12 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:29pm

re: #11 The Sanity Inspector

You could almost use them to threaten misbehaving children: "If you don't learn the difference between what's true, and what you wish were true, you will become a creationist!"

Yes, and your face will freeze like that.

13 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:48pm

re: #2 davinvalkri

Don't they have better things to do with their money and time?

No- this is their sole reason for existing. To up-end scientific materialism. It's not just "Darwinism" they're attacking, it's the whole of science. THey're just using evolution as their tool to chip away at the foundations of scientific inquiry.

Oh- and they're now bandwagoning onto "global warming" because it's a popular way to question science these days.

14 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:50pm

re: #10 Guanxi88

Are you saying that creationism adapts to its environment, taking on protective coverings, mimicking other types, etc?

:) Yep, but for all that they never seem to evolve into anything worthwhile!

15 Sheepdogess  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:21:54pm

Sasquatch, flying sauces, Loch Ness, and whatever....FNDT

16 nyc redneck  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:22:06pm

what a sinking feeling to think that such inept people are in charge of making such important decisions.

17 SagamoreGal  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:22:28pm

Is the NEA fer it or again' it? If the NEA is against it, it's probably a great thing. Nothing has ruined our childrens' minds more than the entrenchment of the NEA in our childrens' lives. Brown is good, white is bad. History doesn't matter unless it pits America as the bad guy. 1+2 is whatever it the fuck lil' Johnny wants it to be. Every child is worthy of a Harvard education, or at the very least a lifetime of working at McDonald's.

This witch hunt against Christians is trivial at best, scary at worst.

18 quickjustice  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:23:35pm

They're just defending G-d from the unwarranted assault upon Him by the demonic Science! ;-)

I have a feeling the Almighty can take care of Himself!

19 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:23:39pm

re: #14 The Sanity Inspector

:) Yep, but for all that they never seem to evolve into anything worthwhile!

So, then, by displaying quasi-evolutionary traits without actually evolving successfully, do they simultaneously demonstrate and subvert evolutionary theory? Kinky.

20 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:23:50pm

re: #1 Occasional Reader

TWO evolution threads in a row?

Hot day-um!

Somebody must have told Charles to stop posting them =)

21 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:23:58pm

re: #7 The Sanity Inspector

Their political mistake in Dover was to work at the school district level; taking over the State Board of Education is a much stronger position.

22 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:24:29pm

re: #17 SagamoreGal

There is no "witch hunt against Christians". If anything, it's a group of fundamentalist Christian Biblical literalists trying to burn science at the stake.

23 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:25:16pm

re: #2 davinvalkri


Who's funding the Discovery Institute? Don't they have better things to do with their money and time?

No.

=)

24 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:25:23pm

Just in case you were worried that Texas hadn’t made an embarrassing spectacle of itself lately, you need fret no more.

All right now. We can discuss the intellectual strength of those who espouse ID. We can challenge the thought process of those who want to substitute faith for science. But we will not make fun of Texas by concluding the views of the unreasoned few equals great big embarrassing spectacle applicable to the entire state.

/must be from some stupid state, like Vermont

25 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:26:06pm

Lemme just point this out:

If the Almighty really needed our defending, if Divinity's sole defense were the mutilation of the mind, then we're all in a lot worse trouble than we can ever know.

26 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:26:29pm

re: #22 Sharmuta

There is no "witch hunt against Christians"

And even to the extent there may be, this ain't it.

27 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:27:31pm

re: #26 Occasional Reader

And even to the extent there may be, this ain't it.

It's actually HIGHLY offensive considering the REAL persecution some Christians are living through right now in the middle east.

28 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:28:47pm

re: #17 SagamoreGal

Nothing has ruined our childrens' minds more than the entrenchment of the NEA in our childrens' lives. Brown is good, white is bad. History doesn't matter unless it pits America as the bad guy. 1+2 is whatever it the fuck lil' Johnny wants it to be. Every child is worthy of a Harvard education, or at the very least a lifetime of working at McDonald's.

All those things are bad. But if people are going to deny teaching kids objective reality, how do they ever plan to get rid of that nonsense?

29 nyc redneck  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:29:12pm

it's so retrograde. counter productive. even god wouldn't approve of it.
(except for allah)

30 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:29:19pm

re: #17 SagamoreGal

Is the NEA fer it or again' it? If the NEA is against it, it's probably a great thing. Nothing has ruined our childrens' minds more than the entrenchment of the NEA in our childrens' lives. Brown is good, white is bad. History doesn't matter unless it pits America as the bad guy. 1+2 is whatever it the fuck lil' Johnny wants it to be. Every child is worthy of a Harvard education, or at the very least a lifetime of working at McDonald's.

This witch hunt against Christians is trivial at best, scary at worst.


no one suspects the darwinian inquisition

31 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:29:50pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

It's actually HIGHLY offensive considering the REAL persecution some Christians are living through right now in the middle east.

Amen to that!

32 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:29:57pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

It actually does bother me that in popular culture in the US these days, Christianity is essentially the only religion that is routinely held up for ridicule. And again, I'm an atheist, I have no god in this fight. But "witch hunt" is definitely pushing it.

33 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:30:16pm

Why the hell have the feds not stepped in to stop this? I don't understand at all why this is being allowed to take place. It should have been stopped dead in its tracks when it was proposed in Louisiana, long before Jindal got a chance to sign on the dotted line.. This is just outrageous.

34 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:30:21pm

re: #30 SpaceJesus

no one suspects the darwinian inquisition

We are constantly adapting our techniques.

35 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:30:49pm

re: #17 SagamoreGal

Is the NEA fer it or again' it? If the NEA is against it, it's probably a great thing. Nothing has ruined our childrens' minds more than the entrenchment of the NEA in our childrens' lives. Brown is good, white is bad. History doesn't matter unless it pits America as the bad guy. 1+2 is whatever it the fuck lil' Johnny wants it to be. Every child is worthy of a Harvard education, or at the very least a lifetime of working at McDonald's.

This witch hunt against Christians is trivial at best, scary at worst.

I dont think it's a which hunt but as for myself the NEA should immediately be dissolved and rendered to the junk pile...an atrocity on our young those guys...

36 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:31:56pm

re: #33 CapeCoddah

Why the hell have the feds not stepped in to stop this? I don't understand at all why this is being allowed to take place. It should have been stopped dead in its tracks when it was proposed in Louisiana, long before Jindal got a chance to sign on the dotted line.. This is just outrageous.

the feds?....hahahaha...the feds...ponder that a minute

37 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:32:01pm

re: #32 Occasional Reader

"That's because a Droid doesn't rip your arms out of their sockets when they lose."

Know what I mean?

38 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:32:02pm

re: #30 SpaceJesus

no one suspects the darwinian inquisition

Accept the Great Ape Ancestor as your one true Father!

39 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:32:17pm

Please, holy-rolling, snake-chucking Christians (and I'm only talking about the ones I'm talking about) going on about persecution for disapproval and ridicule is a bit like gays talking about "bashing" because of Prop 8 or whatever it was called.

Drama Queens the lot of 'em!

40 JimInMN  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:32:33pm

OT

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I pray to God it will be okay, but do we really need so many infidels in one place at one time. Also, great time for some bank robbers and other such nut jobs in areas not protected at the time.

41 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:33:09pm

re: #38 Basho

Accept the Great Ape Ancestor as your one true Father!

Is that anything like the Ape Santa as revealed by the Cybernetic Ghost of Christmas Past from the Future?

42 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:33:39pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Would Jewish creationists instead be "oysters"?

(Get it? Oy-sters? Ahhh, never mind)

Would those willing to crap on science be dumpsters?

43 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:33:40pm

re: #33 CapeCoddah

Why the hell have the feds not stepped in to stop this?

Um.... on what legal grounds?

44 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:34:10pm

the feds wear a mask...the NEA....booga booga! and down go your kids...they are commies or will they explain themselves otherwise?...I think not

45 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:34:14pm

re: #40 JimInMN

OT

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I pray to God it will be okay, but do we really need so many infidels in one place at one time. Also, great time for some bank robbers and other such nut jobs in areas not protected at the time.

I think you've got an interesting mind, like those guys who consider church parking lots as prime hunting grounds for theft during service. Good on ya.

46 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:34:46pm

re: #41 Guanxi88

Hahahaha! Haven't seen ATHF in the longest time...

47 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:34:53pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

"That's because a Droid doesn't rip your arms out of their sockets when they lose."

Know what I mean?

That wasn't the 'droid post I was looking for.

[wave of hand]

48 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:35:10pm

re: #46 Basho

Hahahaha! Haven't seen ATHF in the longest time...

Six days without the Mooninites makes on weak.

49 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:35:22pm

Are the Red States going to devour themselves? Chairman Obama might not even bother taking away their guns, he'll just let the Disco Institute lead them into oblivion.

50 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:35:49pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Are the Red States going to devour themselves? Chairman Obama might not even bother taking away their guns, he'll just let the Disco Institute lead them into oblivion.

Would that be a ..... wait for it ... Disco inferno?

51 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:07pm

Well it is time to check and see if the the assorted veggies and the chunk of beef I put into the crock pot earlier today have evolved into something called dinner.

Night Lizards

Play Nice.

Who am I ripping off?

52 JimInMN  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:11pm

re: #45 Guanxi88

With the speed of your comment I guess you didn't read the link.

53 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:12pm

re: #32 Occasional Reader

It actually does bother me that in popular culture in the US these days, Christianity is essentially the only religion that is routinely held up for ridicule.

That will change, no doubt, once the Methodists get their suicide bomber squads set up.
//

54 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:27pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Chairman Obama might not even bother taking away their guns

GUN THREAD!

(okay, maybe it's a little early)

55 sagamoregal  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:35pm

re: #33 CapeCoddah


"Why the hell have the feds not stepped in to stop this? I don't understand at all why this is being allowed to take place. It should have been stopped dead in its tracks when it was proposed in Louisiana, long before Jindal got a chance to sign on the dotted line.. This is just outrageous."

The more the Feds have stepped into the classroom, the more dumbed down we Americans have become.

56 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:35pm

re: #2 davinvalkri

Oh for the love of...give it a rest already!
Who's funding the Discovery Institute? Don't they have better things to do with their money and time?

I was asking the same question on the previous thread. If the ID movement is not a false-flag operation on the part of radical Islam and/or the radical Left to subvert and destroy Conservatism, it sure as Hell could be.

I wonder if the Discovery Institute gets money from George Soros, or from Saudi sheiks?

57 dammad  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:53pm

OT early - sorry but here is a taste of things to come for our education system as Arne Duncan becomes our new Secretary of Education. I cannot believe these idiots are going to be in power.....[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

58 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:36:54pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Are the Red States going to devour themselves? Chairman Obama might not even bother taking away their guns, he'll just let the Disco Institute lead them into oblivion.

well that's a real buzzkill...maybe we've taken that turn already...keen observation (therefore I'm stealing it)

59 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:37:02pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

Youtube Video

lol
60 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:37:51pm

re: #36 albusteve

the feds?....hahahaha...the feds...ponder that a minute

I know, I know, but, this is still baffling. The feds threatened Massachusetts with losing federal highway funds if we did not get rid of all rotaries by a certain date, but, they can't deal with this? Priorities, folks. Our children's education is at stake, here. Should we teach them that the moon MAY be made of green cheese? That would be the fair thing to do, No?/

61 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:38:15pm

re: #52 JimInMN

With the speed of your comment I guess you didn't read the link.

No, maybe my mind is more interesting.

With all the cops and security in DC, isn't that the best time to start mischief elsewhere?

Same deal at the local coven's parking lot: I know where the owners are, what they're doing, and how long they'll be at it.

62 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:38:34pm

re: #22 Sharmuta

There is no "witch hunt against Christians". If anything, it's a group of fundamentalist Christian Biblical literalists trying to burn science at the stake.

There is a witch hunt, but we aren't part of it and LGF has always stood foursquare against those who are perpetrating it.

63 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:39:00pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Austin is quite blue, sadly. It's a very pretty city. Back to the topic at hand.

64 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:39:03pm

re: #58 albusteve

maybe we've taken that turn already


It's possible. The Republicans and "conservatives" have a real problem on their hands. I suppose they'll figure it out sooner or later but we'll see what happens after Obama's second term.

65 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:39:34pm

re: #60 CapeCoddah

I know, I know, but, this is still baffling. The feds threatened Massachusetts with losing federal highway funds if we did not get rid of all rotaries by a certain date, but, they can't deal with this? Priorities, folks. Our children's education is at stake, here. Should we teach them that the moon MAY be made of green cheese? That would be the fair thing to do, No?/

"rotaries"?

Meaning rotary engine cars, or traffic circles?

66 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:39:44pm

re: #56 Alberta Oil Peon

I was asking the same question on the previous thread. If the ID movement is not a false-flag operation on the part of radical Islam and/or the radical Left to subvert and destroy Conservatism, it sure as Hell could be.

I wonder if the Discovery Institute gets money from George Soros, or from Saudi sheiks?

Your theories intrigue me. Discovery Institute as massive moby, ah?

67 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:40:32pm

re: #56 Alberta Oil Peon

I was asking the same question on the previous thread. If the ID movement is not a false-flag operation on the part of radical Islam and/or the radical Left to subvert and destroy Conservatism, it sure as Hell could be.

I wonder if the Discovery Institute gets money from George Soros, or from Saudi sheiks?

They get money from Harun Yahya I suspect.

68 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:40:51pm

I actually kind of like the idea of having one day a year where members of the Darwinian Atheist Conspiracy get to chase evangelical Christians dressed up as witches around with giant nets, then dress them up as homo erectus.

69 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:41:17pm

We can actually observe young-creationist thinking--- on how to twist science education in the public schools --- as it evolves. The straight ID mutation was less fit (to be argued before the Supreme Court) and now it's mutated into "Exploring Evolution". Will this mutation replace the original ID? If so, is it a variant breed of nonsense, or a whole new species of tommyrot?

There's a scientific issue in evolution that hasn't yet been resolved. Maybe the schools should teach that controversy and invite kids to draw their own conclusions.

70 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:41:20pm

re: #54 Occasional Reader

GUN THREAD!

(okay, maybe it's a little early)


never...have you seen the 'Judge' from Taurus?...any thoughts?

71 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:41:39pm
72 JimInMN  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:41:53pm

re: #61 Guanxi88

Well I guess I am one of those that just didn't see 9:11 coming and worry when so many people are in one place at the same time. I don't think about church parking lots and don't appreciate what I am assuming is some weird anger from you.

73 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:42:38pm

re: #53 lobo91

That will change, no doubt, once the Methodists get their suicide bomber squads set up.
//

They never will, of course, because they would probably suck at it.
But I was under the impression that Jews also catch a lot of flack in popular culture. If only from Mel Brooks and co.
Islam is of course utterly taboo. Which is why we should crack jokes about it at every opportunity.

74 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:42:55pm

re: #56 Alberta Oil Peon

If the ID movement is not a false-flag operation on the part of radical Islam and/or the radical Left to subvert and destroy Conservatism, it sure as Hell could be.

I wonder if the Discovery Institute gets money from George Soros, or from Saudi sheiks?

Well... as the common retort to conspiracy theories goes:

Don't think there's a conspiracy when something can be accurately explained by human stupidity.

(I know I messed that up. If someone could find the accurate quote that would be much appreciated)

75 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:43:01pm

re: #66 davinvalkri

Your theories intrigue me. Discovery Institute as massive moby, ah?

Perzackly, davinvalkri.

Even if the DI started up all by its lonesome as the tool of genuine, unschooled, but basically harmless Christian believers, it's not hard to imagine the forces of evil seeing an opportunity there, is it?

76 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:43:30pm

re: #68 SpaceJesus

I actually kind of like the idea of having one day a year where members of the Darwinian Atheist Conspiracy get to chase evangelical Christians dressed up as witches around with giant nets, then dress them up as homo erectus.


spacejesus for president

77 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:44:39pm

re: #51 Bubblehead II

Play Nice.

Who am I ripping off?

Obi-Wan.

78 Hobbes  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:45:15pm

re: #57 dammad

OT early - sorry but here is a taste of things to come for our education system as Arne Duncan becomes our new Secretary of Education. I cannot believe these idiots are going to be in power.....[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

And look just over Arne Duncan's shoulder and you will see Bill Ayers.

79 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:45:23pm

re: #74 Basho

Well... as the common retort to conspiracy theories goes:

Don't think there's a conspiracy when something can be accurately explained by human stupidity.

(I know I messed that up. If someone could find the accurate quote that would be much appreciated)

It's Hanlon's Razor: "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice."

80 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:45:26pm

re: #74 Basho

Well... as the common retort to conspiracy theories goes:

Don't think there's a conspiracy when something can be accurately explained by human stupidity.

(I know I messed that up. If someone could find the accurate quote that would be much appreciated)

There's a bunch of different versions of it, but I think it's called Hanlon's razor.

81 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:46:10pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

It's possible. The Republicans and "conservatives" have a real problem on their hands. I suppose they'll figure it out sooner or later but we'll see what happens after Obama's second term.

heh...second term?...anyway I read an enlightening article the other day with regard to the Dem party moving slightly right and just absorbing the GoP...one homogenous voting block sewed up from here forward....no link but it was pretty spooky...the left is very aggressive while the right sucks it's thumb...how can this change? or can it?...

82 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:46:34pm

re: #74 Basho

Well... as the common retort to conspiracy theories goes:

Don't think there's a conspiracy when something can be accurately explained by human stupidity.

(I know I messed that up. If someone could find the accurate quote that would be much appreciated)

"never attribute to malevolence that which can be adequately explained by stupidity alone" or something very similar.

Of course there is also "cui bono?"

83 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:46:53pm

re: #75 Alberta Oil Peon


Even if the DI started up all by its lonesome as the tool of genuine, unschooled, but basically harmless Christian believers, it's not hard to imagine the forces of evil seeing an opportunity there, is it?

Meh... no amount of money can make a stupid idea good. If there weren't all those gullible people who support the cause and believe in the Discovery Institute it wouldn't exist.

84 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:47:07pm

Charles has been really busy today I see.

85 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:47:53pm

re: #43 Occasional Reader

Um.... on what legal grounds?

Separation of church and state. Federal law. Regardless of the argument of wether it is in the constitution, or the federalist papers. It makes sense to keep the two separated, and I use this thread and the last as examples of why it is good. We should NOT be teaching religious doctrine in science class. This is taught in ones church bible class for anyone interested. But keep it out of science class, and I will go so far as to say keep it out of public schools altogether. It should not be forced on anyone, ESPECIALLY children, who are a captive audience in school. IMHO, religion is an intensely private matter, religious teachings should be entirely a parental decision, and solely a parental responsibility. This has the same stench that forced radical Islamic training has. That has done wonders for those children, HUH?

86 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:48:04pm
87 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:48:05pm

re: #79 victor_yugo

It's Hanlon's Razor: "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice."

Thank you very much.

Wow, I was way off. Being in the house all day is ruining my brain =(

88 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:48:56pm

re: #65 Alberta Oil Peon

"rotaries"?

Meaning rotary engine cars, or traffic circles?

LOL, Traffic circles, roundabouts, rotaries...same thing

89 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:49:36pm

OT

Don't Look Back

Remind you of anything?

Youtube Video
90 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:49:52pm

re: #83 Basho

Meh... no amount of money can make a stupid idea good. If there weren't all those gullible people who support the cause and believe in the Discovery Institute it wouldn't exist.

True enough. But I'm sure you can see that supporting the Discovery Institute would be a good investment for the Left, as it certainly does sow discord on the Right, as evidenced by the comments here.

91 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:50:23pm

re: #86 ploome hineni

palm islands made of sand...

92 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:51:18pm

re: #86 ploome hineni

alright.alright..

under all the shit, there IS a pony

heh


I read that...brought tears to my eyes

93 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:51:38pm

Just in case you were worried that Texas hadn’t made an embarrassing spectacle of itself lately, you need fret no more.

I'm in line to oppose this, but the writer of this sentence can go fuck himself silly.

I want to stand next to him as much as I want to fight jihad with Vlaams Belaang.

94 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:52:02pm

re: #88 CapeCoddah

LOL, Traffic circles, roundabouts, rotaries...same thing

And why does the Federal government object to traffic circles? Are they too efficient at expediting the flow of vehicular traffic?

95 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:52:38pm

re: #93 OldLineTexan

You're making an embarrassing spectacle of yourself.

/

96 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:53:25pm

re: #76 SpaceJesus

spacejesus for president

Hell, you can come chase me now. Of course, I'll stop, and you'll need to change your shorts.

97 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:54:14pm

re: #90 Alberta Oil Peon

True enough. But I'm sure you can see that supporting the Discovery Institute would be a good investment for the Left, as it certainly does sow discord on the Right, as evidenced by the comments here.

I know. But there wouldn't be discord if people got educated. I know that's an unrealistic assumption though =)

98 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:54:17pm

re: #88 CapeCoddah

LOL, Traffic circles, roundabouts, rotaries...same thing

I have said for years that the worst drivers in the world live in Boston...
:)
Then I went to Europe..those roundabouts are like being in a NASCAR race..
/ Listening to U2...some songs are just get down friggin awesome..

99 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:54:19pm

re: #95 Occasional Reader

You're making an embarrassing spectacle of yourself.

/

Thank God I am not an entire State, just a single hairless ape!

100 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:54:45pm

re: #90 Alberta Oil Peon

True enough. But I'm sure you can see that supporting the Discovery Institute would be a good investment for the Left, as it certainly does sow discord on the Right, as evidenced by the comments here.

I don't disagree with you, but I'm more concerned about the DI's real ties to islamic creationists than I am by any theory of who else might be supporting them.

101 zosthrowin  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:54:52pm

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President out the door on Tuesday, past the trailer park, into the bog and back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under and leave the 21st century to people who say might occasionally read a book other than the Bible...

102 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:55:05pm

re: #94 Alberta Oil Peon

And why does the Federal government object to traffic circles? Are they too efficient at expediting the flow of vehicular traffic?

I have no idea. they are very useful in 5 or 6 way intersections. We get a lot of tourists here, and many do not understand how to navigate them. many will go the wrong way, or just crash their way into one. Maybe it was an accident rate thing. The big ones can be scary to get into if your not used to it.

103 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:55:23pm

re: #86 ploome hineni

alright.alright..

under all the shit, there IS a pony

heh

That is good news. Now, how do we keep them form getting their money back?

104 swamprat  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:55:26pm

As a scientest, (I can't say witch field) I can tel you that evolutionism is a bunch of houey, that made hitler grow in power, and it has as much to go on as global warming.

105 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:55:44pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

That is good news. Now, how do we keep them form getting their money back?

Peddle yer bike in the dark!

106 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:55:48pm

re: #104 swamprat

LOL

107 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:56:01pm
108 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:56:04pm

re: #96 OldLineTexan

Hell, you can come chase me now. Of course, I'll stop, and you'll need to change your shorts.

I agree to chase you, just not through Texas. I refuse to set foot there.

109 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:56:05pm

re: #100 Sharmuta

I don't disagree with you, but I'm more concerned about the DI's real ties to islamic creationists than I am by any theory of who else might be supporting them.

Oh this is beautiful! A non-profit respected by at least some people in the conservative side which may or may not have ties to either the left or Islamist crazies! Damn!

110 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:56:27pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

GAZE

111 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:56:47pm

unless it's through Austin of course

112 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:56:48pm

re: #108 SpaceJesus

I agree to chase you, just not through Texas. I refuse to set foot there.

Those outstanding warrants are a bitch, aren't they?

But then again, you might like jail, huh?

113 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:57:00pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Hey! Lay off, dammit!
Sure, the Discovery Institute's crazy, but that's way too broad a brush!

114 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:57:07pm

re: #105 OldLineTexan

Peddle yer bike in the dark!

Too much snow around here for bike riding.

115 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:57:24pm

re: #102 CapeCoddah

I have no idea. they are very useful in 5 or 6 way intersections. We get a lot of tourists here, and many do not understand how to navigate them. many will go the wrong way, or just crash their way into one. Maybe it was an accident rate thing. The big ones can be scary to get into if your not used to it.

they are a staple and tradition in Jamaica...very effective for slowing down traffic and changing direction...the fact that they work is probably why the feds discount them

116 swamprat  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:57:30pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

shhh!

117 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:57:51pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President out the door on Tuesday, past the trailer park, into the bog and back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under and leave the 21st century to people who say might occasionally read a book other than the Bible...

You're one of those glass-house dwellers, aren't you?

118 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:00pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

I have said for years that the worst drivers in the world live in Boston...
:)
Then I went to Europe..those roundabouts are like being in a NASCAR race..
/ Listening to U2...some songs are just get down friggin awesome..

Never been to Europe, and, if I am very lucky, I never will. Driving here is an experience, but, one gets used to it. For my money RI has the worst, rudest drivers in New England.

119 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:01pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

Involving TWO states right next door to each other?

there's a connection there somewhere, I'm sure of it.

Look up "Bible Belt"

120 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:04pm

re: #111 SpaceJesus

unless it's through Austin of course

Austin's only two and a half hours from me. You think your mom will let you go that far from the porch? It gets dark early this time of year.

121 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:25pm

re: #81 albusteve

.how can this change? or can it?


It can and it will change eventually. Conservatives need to abandon their fetish for "hick wisdom". They'll swoon over anyone (Fred Thompson, Sarah Palin, George Bush, etc) as long as they speak in simple terms with a goffy rural accent. They distrust anyone with "ideas" or conventional intellect. They want down home wisdom. This is a uniquely American thing of idolizing the "wise" idiot but the conservatives have taken it too far and it's not going to work for them anymore. They'll change sooner or later but we have some growing pains to go through in the meantime.

122 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:31pm

re: #86 ploome hineni

alright.alright..

under all the shit, there IS a pony

heh

Good thing they diversified their economy so they don't have to rely upon oil money from the West and investment in Western stock markets. They have all that, um,... wait, lemme think, um... what else do they make? Dates? Carpets?

123 lobo91  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:41pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President out the door on Tuesday, past the trailer park, into the bog and back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under and leave the 21st century to people who say might occasionally read a book other than the Bible...

An impressive second post.

Oh, and screw you.

124 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:43pm

re: #70 albusteve

never...have you seen the 'Judge' from Taurus?...any thoughts?

Only seen the video. Interesting concept. I have some amigos in Colombia who I think could use something like it.

125 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:52pm

re: #109 davinvalkri

No there are ties to the DI and islamic creationists:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

126 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #107 ploome hineni

I am sobbing uncontrollably myself

well stop laughing so hard!....

127 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:59:06pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President out the door on Tuesday, past the trailer park, into the bog and back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under and leave the 21st century to people who say might occasionally read a book other than the Bible...

That "narrow" President is the one who worked to free the people of Iraq and Afghanistan from precisely this kind of illogic and promote inquiry free from Islam's murderous thugs. The events discussed in this thread, and the previous, would never be going on in those countries, without that "narrow" President's moral character.

Get over your ignorant superiority.

128 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:59:09pm

re: #108 SpaceJesus

I agree to chase you, just not through Texas. I refuse to set foot there.

What makes you think they'd let you in?

129 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:59:21pm

re: #117 jaunte

You're one of those glass-house dwellers, aren't you?

Maybe he lives with SpaceJesus' mom.

130 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:59:32pm

Louisiana and Texas: can Arkansas, Mississippi and Alabama be far behind?

131 davinvalkri  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:59:44pm

re: #125 Sharmuta

No there are ties to the DI and islamic creationists:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ok then! "may or may not" becomes "does"! This is going to be fun.

132 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 6:59:57pm

Who's dcbattle?

133 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:00:02pm

re: #93 OldLineTexan

Count me in, brother. See my 24.

134 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:00:14pm

re: #119 avanti

Look up "Bible Belt"

While you have the dictionary out, look up "sarcasm".

135 Abu Al-Poopypants  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:00:22pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

I have said for years that the worst drivers in the world live in Boston...
:)

They do. They come from places like NY, Shanghai and Mumbai to attend our universities, and they stay.

136 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:00:40pm

re: #128 Occasional Reader

What makes you think they'd let you in?

Shhhh, dammit OR!

137 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:00:43pm
138 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:00:59pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President

Let me guess; you think President Bush "banned stem cell research", right?

139 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:01:00pm

For those so inclined as to learn more: Harun Yahya

140 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:01:25pm

re: #131 davinvalkri

Ok then! "may or may not" becomes "does"! This is going to be fun.

They really, really like to ignore this troubling aspect.

141 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:01:29pm

re: #129 OldLineTexan

Wherever he lives, he seems to have come to the end of his thought.

142 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:01:43pm

re: #133 ArmyWife

Count me in, brother. See my 24.

That'll teach me to be late to a fist-fight...

143 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:01:49pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Ass.

144 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:01pm

re: #112 OldLineTexan

Those outstanding warrants are a bitch, aren't they?

But then again, you might like jail, huh?

no, it's really for the safety of the good people of Texas. If I went there, I might accidentally use some big words and cause everyone's heads to explode.

145 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:06pm

re: #100 Sharmuta

I don't disagree with you, but I'm more concerned about the DI's real ties to islamic creationists than I am by any theory of who else might be supporting them.

I'm really just suggesting that we remain vigilant, and watch those clowns closely for evidence of puppet strings.

If we could find proof that DI was being financed and/or managed by the Left or radical Islam, that might cause a lot of the True Believers to have an epiphany and jump ship.

Follow the money!

146 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:15pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

It can and it will change eventually. Conservatives need to abandon their fetish for "hick wisdom". They'll swoon over anyone (Fred Thompson, Sarah Palin, George Bush, etc) as long as they speak in simple terms with a goffy rural accent. They distrust anyone with "ideas" or conventional intellect. They want down home wisdom. This is a uniquely American thing of idolizing the "wise" idiot but the conservatives have taken it too far and it's not going to work for them anymore. They'll change sooner or later but we have some growing pains to go through in the meantime.

we need young unwavered robust candidates...I would love to see some leadership come up out of the House...a huge beef I've always has...these are the leaders of the future but they get bowled over by the glitter of senators and governors...

147 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:16pm

re: #120 OldLineTexan

There is that pesky Hill Country, too he may have to cross. Coyotes and errant Long Horns can be problematic.

148 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:23pm
149 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:29pm

re: #119 avanti

Hey avanti! Your karma has swung way into the positive side. Glad to see it =)

150 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:33pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Oh, why don't you go fuck yourself?

151 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:49pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

It can and it will change eventually. Conservatives need to abandon their fetish for "hick wisdom". They'll swoon over anyone (Fred Thompson, Sarah Palin, George Bush, etc) as long as they speak in simple terms with a goffy rural accent. They distrust anyone with "ideas" or conventional intellect. They want down home wisdom.

In a nutshell:

We want someone whose sense of right and wrong isn't up for negotiation. In other words, the opposite of the PEB0.

152 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:02:51pm

re: #115 albusteve

they are a staple and tradition in Jamaica...very effective for slowing down traffic and changing direction...the fact that they work is probably why the feds discount them

That must be it.

153 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:03:07pm

re: #144 SpaceJesus

no, it's really for the safety of the good people of Texas. If I went there, I might accidentally use some big words and cause everyone's heads to explode.

Why don't you go fuck yourself, too?

154 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:03:35pm

re: #128 Occasional Reader

What makes you think they'd let you in?

not step foot in Texas?...oh man...oh boy...

155 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:03:51pm

re: #16 nyc redneck

what a sinking feeling to think that such inept people are in charge of making such important decisions.

Isn't that (unfortunately) more the rule than the exception?

156 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:03:53pm

re: #144 SpaceJesus

no, it's really for the safety of the good people of Texas. If I went there, I might accidentally use some big words and cause everyone's heads to explode.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You're funny. And I can't even see you.

157 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:03:56pm
158 Basho  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:03:57pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

I agree completely.

159 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:04:03pm

re: #118 CapeCoddah

Never been to Europe, and, if I am very lucky, I never will. Driving here is an experience, but, one gets used to it. For my money RI has the worst, rudest drivers in New England.

I got to spend a week once in Boston.. I thhink it is a magical city..I had so much fun..And we hung out with a couple of dudes from berkley school of music..Great time, great people..wonderful tales in the big city..I have rooted for the sox since then...

160 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:04:16pm

re: #32 Occasional Reader

It actually does bother me that in popular culture in the US these days, Christianity is essentially the only religion that is routinely held up for ridicule. And again, I'm an atheist, I have no god in this fight. But "witch hunt" is definitely pushing it.

I'm a confused agnostic. I recall after hitting five big slot jackpots in two hours and wanting to silently thank someone. I finally decided there may well be a supreme being and he/she has a since of humor.

161 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:04:34pm

re: #144 SpaceJesus

no, it's really for the safety of the good people of Texas. If I went there, I might accidentally use some big words and cause everyone's heads to explode.

Do you find a lot of opportunity to use those "big words" on the job? I mean, do you manage to mix them in with "want fries with that"?

162 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:04:49pm

re: #145 Alberta Oil Peon

I'm really just suggesting that we remain vigilant, and watch those clowns closely for evidence of puppet strings.

If we could find proof that DI was being financed and/or managed by the Left or radical Islam, that might cause a lot of the True Believers to have an epiphany and jump ship.

Follow the money!

I agree- the problem is they've done a great job hiding the money trail.

davinvalkri- be sure to read this one:

Radical Muslim Funding US Creationist Groups?

163 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:05:05pm

re: #144 SpaceJesus

no, it's really for the safety of the good people of Texas. If I went there, I might accidentally use some big words and cause everyone's heads to explode.

big words like fuck you?

164 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:05:25pm

re: #153 MandyManners

Why don't you go fuck yourself, too?


I hope a dashing, big dark-skinned Muslim asks you out on a fancy date then leaves suddenly, sticking you with the bill.

165 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:06:16pm

re: #150 MandyManners

Oh, why don't you go fuck yourself?

Mandy, I so admire you.

166 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:06:27pm
167 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:06:38pm

re: #151 victor_yugo

Is that "hick wisdom"? I am unclear on what qualifies and doesn't considering I have one of those goofy accents.

168 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:07:21pm

It is sad to see the fine discerning minds of our children used as political footballs.

169 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:07:52pm

re: #102 CapeCoddah

I have no idea. they are very useful in 5 or 6 way intersections. We get a lot of tourists here, and many do not understand how to navigate them. many will go the wrong way, or just crash their way into one. Maybe it was an accident rate thing. The big ones can be scary to get into if your not used to it.

We are seeing more traffic circles out west. Anyone visiting Legoland in Carlsbad, CA gets to navigate one to get to the park. Was out on a drive in Arizona and they were putting a bunch in a town near Sedona.

Another good thing about them is that they decrease tailpipe emissions that stop and go driving amplify.

170 Steve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:01pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President out the door on Tuesday, past the trailer park, into the bog and back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under and leave the 21st century to people who say might occasionally read a book other than the Bible...

You are more than welcome to move to some other country. Please!

171 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:06pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

I hope a dashing, big dark-skinned Muslim asks you out on a fancy date then leaves suddenly, sticking you with the bill.

I don't know if I like your tone Jesus...What up?

172 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:16pm

re: #156 OldLineTexan

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You're funny. And I can't even see you.


don't make me do it, I can drop some big words right here, right now. I'd cover my eyes if I was you so your head doesn't detonate.

173 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:19pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

You might want to check President Bush's reading list before you shoot off your mouth and reveal how ignorant you are.

Then again, maybe you don't...

174 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:29pm

re: #166 ploome hineni

undergraduates

barely making a C

rude and obnoxious to their parents

feh

I am almost never rude to anyone but I will defend Texas....even with a hearty FU if they make me....what a coward...afraid of his own countrymen...pffft

175 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:44pm

re: #157 ploome hineni

his recent gender determining surgery temporarily prevents him from doing exactly that

/

I wonder which one he chose.

176 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:45pm

Space Jesus: You know, there are good jokes about Texas (and Alaska, and Oregon, and the other 47 54).

Step away from the keyboard and go look some up.

177 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:55pm

re: #153 MandyManners

Why don't you go fuck yourself, too?

Big words Mandy....
Onanistic copulation.

178 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:08:58pm

Yeeeeeeeehhhhhaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

179 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:09:13pm

re: #171 HoosierHoops

I don't know if I like your tone Jesus...What up?


mandy has some sort of elementary schoolyard crush on me is all

180 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:09:15pm
182 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:09:25pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

Do you find a lot of opportunity to use those "big words" on the job? I mean, do you manage to mix them in with "want fries with that"?

"Super-size" has three syllables.

183 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:09:36pm

re: #169 karmic_inquisitor

We are seeing more traffic circles out west. Anyone visiting Legoland in Carlsbad, CA gets to navigate one to get to the park. Was out on a drive in Arizona and they were putting a bunch in a town near Sedona.

Another good thing about them is that they decrease tailpipe emissions that stop and go driving amplify.

and they are fun as hell when you need to drive on the left....yikes!

184 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:09:38pm

re: #168 Ojoe

That's nothing new. We have teachers who belong to unions leading the charge. We can deduce the result. SpaceJesus may struggle, but he'll get it. Eventually.

185 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:10:21pm

re: #175 MandyManners

I wonder which one he chose.

The other one.

186 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:11:06pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

I hope a dashing, big dark-skinned Muslim asks you out on a fancy date then leaves suddenly, sticking you with the bill.

You got something against dark skin?

187 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:11:20pm

re: #159 HoosierHoops

I got to spend a week once in Boston.. I thhink it is a magical city..I had so much fun..And we hung out with a couple of dudes from berkley school of music..Great time, great people..wonderful tales in the big city..I have rooted for the sox since then...

I love Boston also. For all it's moonbats, it is the cradle of our nations freedom. There is so much of our history in Boston, that it always amazed me that Massachusetts went so completely moonbat. We should be an outlandishly patriotic state, instead, they seem to revile the blood spilled here to struggle to birth this amazing country.

188 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:11:25pm

re: #165 CapeCoddah

Mandy, I so admire you.

Well, it had to be said.

189 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:01pm

re: #172 SpaceJesus

don't make me do it, I can drop some big words right here, right now. I'd cover my eyes if I was you so your head doesn't detonate.

Go for it, Chief. I wipe better shit than you off my boots on a series of bristles mounted on a cast-iron dachshund.

Oh, and I am absolutely enthusiastic about pointless insult troll fights. I'll go on and on and on, laughing my ass off at you every step off the way.

And I will use small words so that you understand them and cry.

190 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:07pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

I've seen you make some good points in the past. Why you feel the need to be provocative and stir up trouble instead of making a better contribution to the discussion is beyond me.

191 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:10pm

re: #179 SpaceJesus

mandy has some sort of elementary schoolyard crush on me is all

*pops microwave popcorn and cracks open a bud light*

192 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:23pm

re: #167 ArmyWife

"Hick Wisdom" is just a term I coined for it. I'm sure someone has come up with a better label. It's a really odd American thing dating back to Twain's Puddin'head Wilson's Almanac and still lives on today with stories like Forrest Gump. The whole "Magic Negro" thing is more recent variation on the same concept. The problem is that simplicity has become confused with stupidity.

193 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:35pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

I hope a dashing, big dark-skinned Muslim asks you out on a fancy date then leaves suddenly, sticking you with the bill.

Well, a dashing dark skinned Muslim might ask Mandy out on a date, but he's not likely to get a yes. But isn't that racist of you? What makes you think all Muslims are 'dark skinned'? It's not like Islam is a race, you know.

194 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:37pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

Friday night drunktrolling.

195 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:45pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

I hope a dashing, big dark-skinned Muslim asks you out on a fancy date then leaves suddenly, sticking you with the bill.

UhOh, you are gonna get it now. Get him, Mandy!

196 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:48pm

re: #169 karmic_inquisitor

We are seeing more traffic circles out west. Anyone visiting Legoland in Carlsbad, CA gets to navigate one to get to the park. Was out on a drive in Arizona and they were putting a bunch in a town near Sedona.

Another good thing about them is that they decrease tailpipe emissions that stop and go driving amplify.

IMHO, the only real problem with traffic circles is that most of us don't get enough experience using them to become comfortable with the concept. I think they work well on 2 or 4 lane roads, with posted speeds up to about 40 MPH. With faster roads, a cloverleaf interchange is better.

And don't get me going about idiot cities that mork up a perfectly good traffic circle by putting signals on it. (Edmonton, Alberta, I'm looking at YOU.)

197 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:56pm

re: #189 OldLineTexan

Go for it, Chief. I wipe better shit than you off my boots on a series of bristles mounted on a cast-iron dachshund.

Oh, and I am absolutely enthusiastic about pointless insult troll fights. I'll go on and on and on, laughing my ass off at you every step off the way.

And I will use small words so that you understand them and cry.

Wait, wait, let me pop some popcorn first!
ROFLMAO!

198 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:12:59pm

re: #188 MandyManners

Well, it had to be said.

Yes, it did. My hero!

199 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:05pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

I for one am a goffy honco.

;)

200 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:27pm
201 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:32pm

re: #160 avanti

I'm a confused agnostic. I recall after hitting five big slot jackpots in two hours and wanting to silently thank someone. I finally decided there may well be a supreme being and he/she has a since of humor.

G-d does have a sense of humor, but it's a very sick sense of humor.

202 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:35pm

re: #194 jaunte

Friday night drunktrolling.

Must be it.

203 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:35pm

re: #178 Ben Hur

Yeeeeeeeehhhhhaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

Wheeeeee!
/Zen Strawberry

204 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:37pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

Let me guess; you think President Bush "banned stem cell research", right?

He did ban federal funding, even on embryos that were to be destroyed. I'll admit, I did not get the logic of it eing morally better to toss them out rather then using them to possibly save lives. That and the Terri Schiavo thing were too far right socially for me. I even think a terminally ill person should on be granted the same mercy a pet has if they chose. (With more than a few safeguards)

205 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:43pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

It goes back at least as far as Mark Twain, and maybe as far as Andrew Jackson.

206 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:13:56pm

re: #186 MandyManners

You got something against dark skin?

I think perhaps he lost his last boyfriend to such a one.

207 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:14:12pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

I've seen you make some good points in the past. Why you feel the need to be provocative and stir up trouble instead of making a better contribution to the discussion is beyond me.

thread whore...too bad really

208 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:14:44pm

re: #187 CapeCoddah

I love Boston also. For all it's moonbats, it is the cradle of our nations freedom. There is so much of our history in Boston, that it always amazed me that Massachusetts went so completely moonbat. We should be an outlandishly patriotic state, instead, they seem to revile the blood spilled here to struggle to birth this amazing country.

Boston's great; I enjoyed it tremendously.

209 Abu Al-Poopypants  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:14:49pm

OT: Anyone have any luck connecting to the Gaza Cam tonight?

OK, thanks; continue fighting amongst yourselves...

210 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:14:59pm

re: #193 Kenneth

It's not like Islam is a race, you know.

Yes, it is. To the bottom.

211 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:15:23pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

Do you find a lot of opportunity to use those "big words" on the job? I mean, do you manage to mix them in with "want fries with that"?

Big words, like "can I supersize that for you"?

212 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:15:28pm

re: #172 SpaceJesus

don't make me do it, I can drop some big words right here, right now. I'd cover my eyes if I was you so your head doesn't detonate.

Why, you illiterate half-wit. It should be "I'd cover my eyes if I were you so my head wouldn't detonate."

Come to think of it but, the proper term probably isn't "detonate" but "explode". Maybe some techy-types can help me out: isn't detonation the first stage in producing an explosion but, not the explosion itself?

213 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:15:31pm

re: #187 CapeCoddah

I love Boston also. For all it's moonbats, it is the cradle of our nations freedom. There is so much of our history in Boston, that it always amazed me that Massachusetts went so completely moonbat. We should be an outlandishly patriotic state, instead, they seem to revile the blood spilled here to struggle to birth this amazing country.

I called my parents From Harvard grounds...Hey Ma..I finally made it to Harvard! Saw tha church with the bullet hole...went to the Cheers bar..
watched a sox game in a bar...Boston f'n Rocks!

214 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:05pm

re: #205 jaunte

What's your Andrew Jackson reference? It's an idea worth exploring but I haven't really thought it through all the way.

215 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:18pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

I've seen you make some good points in the past. Why you feel the need to be provocative and stir up trouble instead of making a better contribution to the discussion is beyond me.


some people just can't seem to resist telling me to fornicate with myself, I never start these things.

216 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:39pm

re: #204 avanti

He did ban federal funding, even on embryos that were to be destroyed. I'll admit, I did not get the logic of it eing morally better to toss them out rather then using them to possibly save lives. That and the Terri Schiavo thing were too far right socially for me. I even think a terminally ill person should on be granted the same mercy a pet has if they chose. (With more than a few safeguards)

I assume you weren't around for the Schaivo threads here. Much fur flew.

217 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:45pm

172 SpaceJesus

don't make me do it, I can drop some big words right here, right now. I'd cover my eyes if I was you so your head doesn't detonate.

People who sound off about using big words should really try to avoid grammar errors. Otherwise, you look like an idiot.

218 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:54pm

re: #212 MandyManners

Why, you illiterate half-wit. It should be "I'd cover my eyes if I were you so my head wouldn't detonate."

Come to think of it but, the proper term probably isn't "detonate" but "explode". Maybe some techy-types can help me out: isn't detonation the first stage in producing an explosion but, not the explosion itself?


idk my bff jill?

219 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:16:57pm

re: #199 karmic_inquisitor

I for one am a goffy honco.

;)

But are you a goffy honco batsard?

220 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:01pm

re: #177 jcm

Big words Mandy....
Onanistic copulation.

Onanism doesn't suffice?

221 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:22pm

re: #217 Kenneth

172 SpaceJesus

People who sound off about using big words should really try to avoid grammar errors. Otherwise, you look like an idiot.


he's from texas, I'm trying to communicate with him on his level.

222 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:27pm

re: #215 SpaceJesus

some people just can't seem to resist telling me to fornicate with myself, I never start these things.

nor finish them...that's worse amigo

223 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:28pm

re: #180 ploome hineni

he can't score either way

bwaaaaaaaaaahahahah

Not even with himself? Now, that's just sad.

224 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:42pm

SOF, probably SEALS, helo water pickup.

Liveleak Video
225 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:48pm

re: #144 SpaceJesus

no, it's really for the safety of the good people of Texas. If I went there, I might accidentally use some big words and cause everyone's heads to explode.

Guess you didn't get the memo from Obama about disagreeing with out being disagreeable. While you may disagree with the folks in Texas that came up with this idea, don't paint the whole damn state with your bullshit brush.

226 ClosetConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:17:54pm

OFFICIAL LOUNGE RELEASE:

Dear LGF Thread Community,

We, the denizens of the Lizard Lounge, are experiencing a particularly sluggish night due to our cold-blooded nature. So stop discussing the Discovery Institute's shenanigans and come trade witty comments with us. Go ahead and click the "Lizard Lounge" link in the upper right hand side of the page. 'Cause we're just that interesting.

Love,
The Lounge

227 Abu Al-Poopypants  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:04pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Onanism doesn't suffice?

Speaking of Onanism, I pity the poor fool who has to clean the floor of the studio at MSNBC on Tuesday night.

228 Steve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:09pm

re: #157 ploome hineni

his recent gender determining surgery temporarily prevents him from doing exactly that

/

re: #175 MandyManners

I wonder which one he chose.

Maybe his/her/its surgery allows them to do exactly that.

229 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:13pm

re: #215 SpaceJesus

some people just can't seem to resist telling me to fornicate with myself, I never start these things.

Unless you're being intentionally provocative, which I wonder if you are. If that's the case, you're trolling and not trying to make a reasonable contribution to the discussion.

230 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:19pm

re: #209 Abu Al-Poopypants

OT: Anyone have any luck connecting to the Gaza Cam tonight?

OK, thanks; continue fighting amongst yourselves...

You are a poopypants...I was jes' playing with it. Should I stop? Sharmuta already gave me a partial guilt complex...because I have never seen the SpaceJesus type anything worth reading.

231 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:23pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

I think perhaps he lost his last boyfriend to such a one.

NTTATWWT.

232 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:40pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

I'll have to do some research on that, but I think it was in his time that the idea of being a 'common man born in a log cabin', and not part of the aristocracy became a politically powerful concept in America.
Lincoln is more famous for it today, but Jackson started it, I think.

233 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:18:52pm

Compton school is named for Barack Obama, a first in California

First there were Obama T-shirts and bumper stickers. Now there's a Compton charter school named after the president-elect.

The former Qued Charter Elementary School changed its name to the Barack Obama Charter School earlier this week. The original name was always intended as a placeholder -- "Qued" is a mash-up of "quality" and "education" -- and parents at the school overwhelmingly wanted the school to be named after Obama.

/after all, he's the greatest President-elect in the history of the country

234 ClosetConservative  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:19:00pm

Boston is fun to visit, but just try living here. I can smell Barney Frank living a town over when the wind is right.

235 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:19:29pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Onanism doesn't suffice?

More words better?

236 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:19:43pm

re: #212 MandyManners

Come to think of it but, the proper term probably isn't "detonate" but "explode". Maybe some techy-types can help me out: isn't detonation the first stage in producing an explosion but, not the explosion itself?

Damn! You are right.

Blasting caps are called" detonators."

"Det cord" can be used to ignite an explosion two, but I have seen it done wrong where it just splatters C4 all over the place.

237 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:19:59pm

re: #227 Abu Al-Poopypants

Speaking of Onanism, I pity the poor fool who has to clean the floor of the studio at MSNBC on Tuesday night.

Everyone having Obasims?

238 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:20:20pm

re: #221 SpaceJesus

he's from texas, I'm trying to communicate with him on his level.

You actually seem proud of being a douchebag. Why is that?

239 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:20:27pm

re: #212 MandyManners

Quite right. Space Jesus detonates, but lacks an actual charge & so fails to explode. I believe the word is 'dud'.

240 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:20:27pm

re: #179 SpaceJesus

mandy has some sort of elementary schoolyard crush on me is all

I'm guessing the only "crush" you will get from Mandy will be from her clue bat.

241 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:20:35pm

re: #217 Kenneth

172 SpaceJesus


People who sound off about using big words should really try to avoid grammar errors. Otherwise, you look like an idiot.

GMTA, Kenneth.

242 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:20:52pm

re: #219 OldLineTexan

But are you a goffy honco batsard?

Goffy Honco Bastid. I like eet.

/Now about a registration thread, Charles.

243 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:21:11pm

re: #227 Abu Al-Poopypants

Speaking of Onanism, I pity the poor fool who has to clean the floor of the studio at MSNBC on Tuesday night.

Oh, ick. Just, ick.

244 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:21:30pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

What's your Andrew Jackson reference? It's an idea worth exploring but I haven't really thought it through all the way.

Andrew Jackson was the original candidate on a "Washington Outsider" ticket.

His inauguration was a disaster. This is a fun article.

245 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:21:36pm

re: #236 karmic_inquisitor

Damn! You are right.

Blasting caps are called" detonators."

"Det cord" can be used to ignite an explosion two, but I have seen it done wrong where it just splatters C4 all over the place.

pimf - too

246 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:21:37pm

re: #242 karmic_inquisitor

Goffy Honco Bastid. I like eet.

/Now about a registration thread, Charles.

So...if there is one...troll feeding rights are on a seniority basis, right?

247 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:09pm

re: #235 jcm

More words better?

Only if your nic is spaceX.

248 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:11pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Onanism doesn't suffice?

Just so you know, Onan Generators used to be owned by Studebaker, but are now part of Cummins. Evolution in action.

249 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:26pm

re: #221 SpaceJesus

No, you're just an idiot. Nice try.

250 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:30pm

re: #236 karmic_inquisitor

Damn! You are right.

Blasting caps are called" detonators."

"Det cord" can be used to ignite an explosion two, but I have seen it done wrong where it just splatters C4 all over the place.

GIMME' A PURPLE JELLY-BEAN!

251 Abu Al-Poopypants  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:39pm

re: #243 MandyManners

Oh, ick. Just, ick.

Exactly.

252 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:22:41pm

re: #233 Killian Bundy

Compton school is named for Barack Obama, a first in California

/after all, he's the greatest President-elect in the history of the country

Armies of action figures are invading the market, as are stacks of cozy cotton blankets embroidered with Obama’s likeness, bottles of O-Bam-A hot sauce, crates of Baracky Road ice cream, jigsaw puzzles, faux U.S. currency and jack-in-the boxes that play “Hail to the Chief” before popping up the president-elect.

253 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:23:01pm

re: #237 jcm

Everyone having Obasims?

Love it. Who coined "Immaculation?" Clever. Even has a sexual connotation.

254 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:23:14pm

re: #104 swamprat

As a scientest, (I can't say witch field) I can tel you that evolutionism is a bunch of houey, that made hitler grow in power, and it has as much to go on as global warming.

I'm a scientist. I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.

255 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:23:19pm

re: #239 Kenneth

Quite right. Space Jesus detonates, but lacks an actual charge & so fails to explode. I believe the word is 'dud'.

I was right on a techy-thingy?!

256 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:23:19pm

re: #238 Occasional Reader

You actually seem proud of being a douchebag. Why is that?

Texas became a great state and champion of personal liberties by the sacrifices of people exactly the opposite of this guy....people like him are not wanted or needed over there...he has a lot to learn

257 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:24:11pm

re: #248 Alberta Oil Peon

Just so you know, Onan Generators used to be owned by Studebaker, but are now part of Cummins. Evolution in action.

Is that for real? Oh, my goodness.

258 ArmyWife  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:24:12pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

But its wholly unfair to equate southern drawl with stupidity - or to assume the people on your list are less than intelligent. I've said it before, I will say it again. Real social conservatives (like me) need to spell out what that means instead of letting it get hijacked from the left, or the fringe right. We accept there is, in fact, both a right and a wrong, and for the most part, they aren't relative. We don't care what two consenting adults do in the bedroom, which is different than accepting the lifestyle and having it force fed to my children. I uphold teaching science in science class, I think a comparative religion class if done well is quite appropriate in school - but not as a subset of science. I feel if you want to teach creationism or spaghetti monsterism at home, you have that right. If you want it taught in school, make sure it's a private one. I feel like a broken record, but it's not rocket science. Are you listenin' RNC?

259 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:24:15pm

re: #239 Kenneth

Quite right. Space Jesus detonates, but lacks an actual charge & so fails to explode. I believe the word is 'dud'.

Fizzle!

260 swamprat  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:24:20pm

Onan generators.....found out they are "self-exciting". You can't make this stuff up.

261 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:24:50pm

re: #179 SpaceJesus

mandy has some sort of elementary schoolyard crush on me is all

Smack!

262 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:25:20pm

re: #258 ArmyWife

But its wholly unfair to equate southern drawl with stupidity - or to assume the people on your list are less than intelligent. I've said it before, I will say it again. Real social conservatives (like me) need to spell out what that means instead of letting it get hijacked from the left, or the fringe right. We accept there is, in fact, both a right and a wrong, and for the most part, they aren't relative. We don't care what two consenting adults do in the bedroom, which is different than accepting the lifestyle and having it force fed to my children. I uphold teaching science in science class, I think a comparative religion class if done well is quite appropriate in school - but not as a subset of science. I feel if you want to teach creationism or spaghetti monsterism at home, you have that right. If you want it taught in school, make sure it's a private one. I feel like a broken record, but it's not rocket science. Are you listenin' RNC?

no

263 swamprat  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:25:28pm

re: #254 Unakite

I'm a scientist. I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.

I can't for security reasons.

264 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:25:36pm

re: #253 karmic_inquisitor

Love it. Who coined "Immaculation?" Clever. Even has a sexual connotation.

I came up with "Onauguration" last night in the Lounge.

265 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:25:45pm

re: #216 karmic_inquisitor

I assume you weren't around for the Schaivo threads here. Much fur flew.

If it's anything like climate change, I'll retreat to my liberal fort and hunker down. :) BTW, how did that thread turn out ?

266 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:25:51pm

Texas sez Halp Us Jawn Cary

267 JHW  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:25:56pm

re: #232 jaunte

Here's another I think,Presidential Election of 1840

The Whig triumph and the mobilization of 900,000 new voters are usually attributed to the nature of the campaign Whigs ran against Martin Van Buren, the incumbent Democratic president. In December 1839 Whigs nominated a ticket of William Henry Harrison, an old Indian fighter from Ohio, and John Tyler of Virginia. This produced the famous alliterative campaign slogan, "Tippecanoe and Tyler, too." But because Democrats mocked Harrison as a superannuated has-been who would be content to retire to a log cabin with a barrel of hard cider, Whigs also made log cabins and hard cider the central emblems of their campaign to portray Harrison as a man of the people while they pilloried Van Buren as a pampered dandy who lolled in luxury in the White House. Lubricating voters with free whiskey and hard cider, scourging Van Buren in songs and slogans like "Van, Van, Van-Van's a Used Up Man," and brilliantly imitating Jacksonian hurrah campaign techniques like parades, mass rallies, and log-cabin raisings, Whigs supposedly avoided concrete issues and out-demagogued the Democrats, thereby bringing massive numbers of new voters to the polls and driving Van Buren from the White House.

268 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:26:18pm

this whole thing got started because mandy is infatuated with me, I apologize to everyone who is not involved in this.


I'm sorry mandy, but we're just not right for each other. It would never work.

can we all just move on now?

269 jcm  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:26:29pm

re: #263 swamprat

Nucular Fizzics?

270 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:26:41pm

re: #221 SpaceJesus

he's from texas, I'm trying to communicate with him on his level.

Have you thought about it a little more? Sounds like you're all hat and no cattle.

I thought you wanted to chase an Evangelical Christian.

Well, sonny Jim, I'm a Baptist, a scientist, and not a Disco Inst. follower. I dislike blanket statements from statements like you dragging blankets. Get your running shoes, and bring your dipie-wipies because I'm only going to run long enough to make you cry tired.

271 swamprat  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:03pm

re: #269 jcm

Nucular Fizzics?

mite bee

272 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:11pm

re: #258 ArmyWife

But its wholly unfair to equate southern drawl with stupidity - or to assume the people on your list are less than intelligent. I've said it before, I will say it again. Real social conservatives (like me) need to spell out what that means instead of letting it get hijacked from the left, or the fringe right. We accept there is, in fact, both a right and a wrong, and for the most part, they aren't relative. We don't care what two consenting adults do in the bedroom, which is different than accepting the lifestyle and having it force fed to my children. I uphold teaching science in science class, I think a comparative religion class if done well is quite appropriate in school - but not as a subset of science. I feel if you want to teach creationism or spaghetti monsterism at home, you have that right. If you want it taught in school, make sure it's a private one. I feel like a broken record, but it's not rocket science. Are you listenin' RNC?

Any time Hollywood--especially television--needs a hick no matter the location of the story, that hick has a Southern accent.

273 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:18pm

re: #256 albusteve

Texas became a great state and champion of personal liberties by the sacrifices of people exactly the opposite of this guy....people like him are not wanted or needed over there...he has a lot to learn

Plus Texas has some of the most beautiful women in the world..what the heck is in that water?

274 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:34pm

re: #238 Occasional Reader

You actually seem proud of being a douchebag. Why is that?

Playing to his strengths is my guess.

275 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:35pm

re: #255 MandyManners

You must have been reading the explosives & ordnance threads. The things you can learn at LGF!

276 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:44pm

re: #268 SpaceJesus

You're delusional. Or, drunk. Or, both.

277 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:27:52pm

re: #230 OldLineTexan

You are a poopypants...I was jes' playing with it. Should I stop? Sharmuta already gave me a partial guilt complex...because I have never seen the SpaceJesus type anything worth reading.

Look at his Karma, not many have. Sharm must have caught it during a rare moment of clarity. No offense, Sharmuta!

278 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:28:26pm

re: #273 HoosierHoops

Plus Texas has some of the most beautiful women in the world..what the heck is in that water?

bourbon...

279 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:28:32pm

re: #275 Kenneth

You must have been reading the explosives & ordnance threads. The things you can learn at LGF!

I thought my eyes glazed over during them. I reckon I absorbed some stuff by osmosis.

280 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:28:58pm

re: #234 ClosetConservative

Boston is fun to visit, but just try living here. I can smell Barney Frank living a town over when the wind is right.

I love Boston, But I live a hundred miles south. I could never live there.

281 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:28:58pm

re: #278 albusteve

bourbon...

Bourbon comes from Kentucky only.

282 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:29:03pm

re: #248 Alberta Oil Peon

Just so you know, Onan Generators used to be owned by Studebaker, but are now part of Cummins. Evolution in action.

Damn, a Studebaker reference. I own a Studebaker built Onan that's in the garage with my Studebaker's.

283 Abu Al-Poopypants  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:29:51pm

re: #248 Alberta Oil Peon

Just so you know, Onan Generators used to be owned by Studebaker, but are now part of Cummins.

Got a huge one outside my office window at work. Always found that name to be a bit odd.

284 Steve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:29:52pm

re: #276 MandyManners

You're delusional. Or, drunk. Or, both.

would that be delusionally drunk or drunk delusionally?

285 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:29:54pm

re: #270 OldLineTexan

Have you thought about it a little more? Sounds like you're all hat and no cattle.

I thought you wanted to chase an Evangelical Christian.

Well, sonny Jim, I'm a Baptist, a scientist, and not a Disco Inst. follower. I dislike blanket statements from statements like you dragging blankets. Get your running shoes, and bring your dipie-wipies because I'm only going to run long enough to make you cry tired.

Cool..My favorite scientist's blog is here..
[Link: coraifeartaigh.wordpress.com...]
A really good writer...

286 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:30:08pm

re: #252 jcm

Armies of action figures are invading the market, as are stacks of cozy cotton blankets embroidered with Obama’s likeness, bottles of O-Bam-A hot sauce, crates of Baracky Road ice cream, jigsaw puzzles, faux U.S. currency and jack-in-the boxes that play “Hail to the Chief” before popping up the president-elect.

George Bush had three action figures. I am waiting for the limited-edition altar-worthy Golden Obamanation.

287 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:30:14pm

re: #281 MandyManners

Bourbon comes from Kentucky only.

Kentucky was once part of Texas...read some history...feh

288 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:30:37pm

re: #232 jaunte

I'll have to do some research on that, but I think it was in his time that the idea of being a 'common man born in a log cabin', and not part of the aristocracy became a politically powerful concept in America.
Lincoln is more famous for it today, but Jackson started it, I think.

Interesting.

289 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:30:50pm

re: #285 HoosierHoops

Cool..My favorite scientist's blog is here..
[Link: coraifeartaigh.wordpress.com...]
A really good writer...

Some of my work has orbited the Earth.

On purpose, even.

290 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:30:51pm

re: #270 OldLineTexan

Have you thought about it a little more? Sounds like you're all hat and no cattle.

I thought you wanted to chase an Evangelical Christian.

Well, sonny Jim, I'm a Baptist, a scientist, and not a Disco Inst. follower. I dislike blanket statements from statements like you dragging blankets. Get your running shoes, and bring your dipie-wipies because I'm only going to run long enough to make you cry tired.


as a fully evolved homosapien, I think I could out-pace your australopithecus legs, what with your awkward gait and all

291 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:31:04pm
292 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:31:42pm

re: #280 CapeCoddah

I love Boston, But I live a hundred miles south. I could never live there.

I had a friend in college from Wocester. Her husband worked as a sales rep. to Boeing from that company with the biggest forge in the free world.

293 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:32:10pm

re: #284 Steve

would that be delusionally drunk or drunk delusionally?

Or, drunkenly delusional.

294 jaunte  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:32:28pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

Come to think of it, being a "man of the people" is probably a political position that's as old as voting.

295 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:32:35pm

re: #287 albusteve

Kentucky was once part of Texas...read some history...feh

HA!

296 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:32:39pm

re: #282 avanti

Damn, a Studebaker reference. I own a Studebaker built Onan that's in the garage with my Studebaker's.

Well, we've met, you know. In Mecca-on-the-St. Joe.

297 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:33:24pm

re: #286 OldLineTexan

George Bush had three action figures. I am waiting for the limited-edition altar-worthy Golden Obamanation.

That one is easy to find. Just shine shit and call it gold.

298 Steve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:33:27pm

re: #293 MandyManners

Or, drunkenly delusional.

LOL. I missed that one.

299 Digital Display  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:34:20pm

re: #278 albusteve

bourbon...

Guy from Kentucky is in a bar in Dallas bragging about how much gold they have in Fort Knox..So he says..We got so much gold we could build a gold wall all around the state of Texas!
One Boy leans back and says 'well go ahead and build it..If we like it..We'll buy it'

300 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:34:24pm

re: #290 SpaceJesus

as a fully evolved homosapien, I think I could out-pace your australopithecus legs, what with your awkward gait and all

So your knowledge of "evolution" ends somewhere right after learning to spell it.

Interesting, interesting.

301 Steve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:34:47pm

re: #297 Dark_Falcon

That one is easy to find. Just shine shit and call it gold.

the only two things in life that you have to worry about are shit and shinola.

302 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:35:34pm

re: #265 avanti

If it's anything like climate change, I'll retreat to my liberal fort and hunker down. :) BTW, how did that thread turn out ?

Threads. Many. Still gets folks riled, though many who had bought into "the doctors are wrong" left the board after the Discovery Institute / stealth creationism wars. So you would not had to "hunker down".

I think Schaivo is another area where many on the left have unjustly accused all folks on the right as having been on board with Hannity. But it was utterly stupid (IMO) of people who talk about rule of law and allowing families to make decisions without government interference to throw all of that out for a tragic decision over a tragic event.

303 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:35:45pm

re: #299 HoosierHoops

Guy from Kentucky is in a bar in Dallas bragging about how much gold they have in Fort Knox..So he says..We got so much gold we could build a gold wall all around the state of Texas!
One Boy leans back and says 'well go ahead and build it..If we like it..We'll buy it'

indeed...good one! and probably true...no shit

304 Guanxi88  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:36:28pm

re: #72 JimInMN

Well I guess I am one of those that just didn't see 9:11 coming and worry when so many people are in one place at the same time. I don't think about church parking lots and don't appreciate what I am assuming is some weird anger from you.

Sorry for the late reply:

Nope, it ain't anger; just my twisted sense of humor, once again.

305 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:36:33pm

re: #296 Alberta Oil Peon

Well, we've met, you know. In Mecca-on-the-St. Joe.

So I know you from South Bend or the Studebaker Club ?

306 albusteve  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:36:50pm

re: #301 Steve

the only two things in life that you have to worry about are shit and shinola.

and your special purpose....

307 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:36:55pm

re: #290 SpaceJesus

as a fully evolved homosapien, I think I could out-pace your australopithecus legs, what with your awkward gait and all

Ever heard of punctuation and capitalization?

308 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:37:18pm

re: #300 OldLineTexan

So your knowledge of "evolution" ends somewhere right after learning to spell it.

Interesting, interesting.

Don't forget he has spellcheck OLT...

309 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:37:29pm

re: #195 CapeCoddah

UhOh, you are gonna get it now. Get him, Mandy!

How about the rope trick? Haven't heard it for a while.

310 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:38:21pm
311 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:38:36pm

re: #309 Naso Tang

How about the rope trick? Haven't heard it for a while.

I like the beatings better.

312 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:38:37pm

re: #268 SpaceJesus

27 more comments and you'll even out your karma with your number of comments.

/assuming you can average two down dings per comment

313 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:38:55pm

re: #307 MandyManners

Ever heard of punctuation and capitalization?


ever heard of a restraining order?

314 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:39:37pm

re: #305 avanti

So I know you from South Bend or the Studebaker Club ?

The latter.

315 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:41:17pm

re: #313 SpaceJesus

ever heard of a restraining order?

I'm sure her collection is not as "big" as yours. Relax. Your manhood's not being threatened on that particular level.

So, are we going to play witch hunt, or have you gone yellow?

316 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:41:21pm

re: #302 karmic_inquisitor

Threads. Many. Still gets folks riled, though many who had bought into "the doctors are wrong" left the board after the Discovery Institute / stealth creationism wars. So you would not had to "hunker down".

I think Schaivo is another area where many on the left have unjustly accused all folks on the right as having been on board with Hannity. But it was utterly stupid (IMO) of people who talk about rule of law and allowing families to make decisions without government interference to throw all of that out for a tragic decision over a tragic event.

That's interesting, you and I are in 100% in agreement, I had assumed that issue was a one that none on the right would agree with me on.

317 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:41:59pm

re: #313 SpaceJesus

ever heard of a restraining order?

Have you ever heard of psychotropic medication? Because you need some.

318 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:42:19pm

re: #312 Killian Bundy

Slow night when we get into doing arithmetic problems.

319 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:42:25pm

re: #300 OldLineTexan

So your knowledge of "evolution" ends somewhere right after learning to spell it.

Interesting, interesting.

oh come on, you know I'm just joshing you about Texans all being under-evolved ape people. let's just be friends

320 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:42:25pm

re: #172 SpaceJesus

don't make me do it, I can drop some big words right here, right now. I'd cover my eyes if I was you so your head doesn't detonate.

Big words, bad grammar.

321 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:42:40pm

re: #313 SpaceJesus

ever heard of a restraining order?

Complete asshole. Now I will tell you to go fuck yourself. Twice.

322 avanti  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:43:00pm

re: #314 Alberta Oil Peon

The latter.

Well then, nice to see you again.:)

323 Abu Al-Poopypants  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:43:13pm

New thread.

324 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:43:46pm

re: #318 Naso Tang

Slow night when we get into doing arithmetic problems.

Hey, Salmantis ain't here yet.

/of course, he'll have to start with the last thread so it might be a while

325 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:43:57pm

re: #313 SpaceJesus

ever heard of a restraining order?

You sure scare easily, don't you?

326 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:44:27pm

re: #315 OldLineTexan

I'm sure her collection is not as "big" as yours. Relax. Your manhood's not being threatened on that particular level.

So, are we going to play witch hunt, or have you gone yellow?


I don't think you're a creationist, so you would enjoy the whole idea too much

327 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:45:57pm

re: #191 HoosierHoops

*pops microwave popcorn and cracks open a bud light*

Have beer, no popcorn.

328 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:46:18pm

re: #319 SpaceJesus

oh come on, you know I'm just joshing you about Texans all being under-evolved ape people. let's just be friends

So let me get this straight...you have changed your mind about chasing me?

Gosh, I don't know if we can be friends. Number one, you're kind of fickle. Number two, you've been a jerk to Mandy on this and another occasion that I witnessed (we ape people don't cotton to that), and number three, I don't date guys.

329 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:46:49pm

re: #319 SpaceJesus

oh come on, you know I'm just joshing you about Texans all being under-evolved ape people. let's just be friends

Why? What's in it for us?

330 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:46:56pm

re: #322 avanti

Well then, nice to see you again.:)

Likewise.

I've been kind of laid-up with a cold, but I did get outside today, and used my Weasel to drag a 2R6 into the shop.

331 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:47:00pm

re: #325 Occasional Reader

You sure scare easily, don't you?

He does. See 326.

332 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:47:34pm

re: #330 Alberta Oil Peon

Likewise.

I've been kind of laid-up with a cold, but I did get outside today, and used my Weasel to drag a 2R6 into the shop.

Any day you can use your Weasel is a good day.

333 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:48:24pm

re: #332 OldLineTexan

Any day you can use your Weasel is a good day.

You got that right!

334 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:48:42pm

re: #328 OldLineTexan

... and number three, I don't date guys.

No, but we can carbon date him. Get it? carbon dating... evolution?...

Never mind.

335 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:49:40pm

re: #333 Alberta Oil Peon

You got that right!

I used to live near an apartment complex with a Gamma Goat parked in the lot. I always wanted to find out who owned it.

336 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:50:38pm

re: #334 Kenneth

No, but we can carbon date him. Get it? carbon dating... evolution?...

Never mind.

Cood yu tipe that slolee? I kant reed fast.

337 TheAntichrist  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:50:40pm

This is how the Christian right is destroying the GOP. Skyrocketing deficits, an economy in the toilet, Muslim fundamentalists creating havoc all over the globe, and these numnuts decide that the biggest threat to the US is science and gay marriage.

If the GOP split from Christian right and went back to their core constituency of individual rights, fiscal responsibility, and strong national defense they would more than make up for the loss of the Christian right with the conservative Dems who are Dems only because they're only slightly less embarrassed by the radical left than they are by groups like the Discovery Institute.

Oh well, at least Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind) will be cooling his heels in Club Fed for several more years.

I'll leave you with this classic Onion article.

338 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:51:16pm

re: #335 OldLineTexan

I used to live near an apartment complex with a Gamma Goat parked in the lot. I always wanted to find out who owned it.

Maybe the building owner. Otherwise, he'd get hassled for taking up 3 parking spaces. LOL.

339 suitepotato  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:51:49pm

We conservatives have only ourselves to blame for this creeping superstition masquerading as science. Of course, the modern Olympic dash to chaos and unbelief our society is engaged in overall has much to do with it for multiple reasons, but we conservatives missed a golden opportunity.

Evolution has it that the way we are is a result of slow process of reproduction in the face of adversity from the environment around us which if we do not surmount it, will kill us before we can pass on our traits from parents to children and they to theirs and so on.

That means everything about us has some function in our existence after all this time. The bad parts and the good both. Our endemic species-wide reactions to many things, our psychological tendencies, etc. all relate somehow to our still being here and not having destroyed ourselves.

For instance, if we had evolved without an inherent psychological resistance to unrestrained sexuality, with males and females being equally aggressive and receptive to each others' aggression, our breeding statistics would have been disastrous. We'd have bred in numbers sufficient to kill most females through abuse of their reproductive systems, the numbers of humans produced would have been far far too much for the environment to support in terms of food and biological waste disposal, STDs would have run rampant in ways we almost cannot imagine, and lack of biological waste disposal would have increased biological contamination of our waterways immensely. All the way around unfettered sexual hedonism of the kind imagined as a paradise is so utterly incompatible with our current ability to cope with the side effects that it would have killed us off thousands and thousands of years ago.

There are reasons for our behaviors and mentality almost every single one of which devolve back to our survival instincts or because not being that way would have led to our destruction and those who have evolved in that other direction have been severely outnumbered by those who did not.

There's a reason that massive mental aberrations in humans are aberrations and not every day and that is because insane people with antisocial and even dangerous social and personal behaviors are not good mating candidates in the view of others. They see them as too different and too dangerous or upsetting and do not mate with them and reproduce their DNA into the next generation.

We conservatives dropped the ball when we turned from evolution because the number one argument against the unrestrained practice of many of our more dangerous behaviors was evolution. In doing so the left, which has in the western European and American world practiced a soft touchy-feely version of selective non-judgmentalism turned it into a subliminally inferred argument for the eradication of all qualms and second thoughts about anything, painted all negative reactions to everything as latent primitivism or outright bigotry, and that evolution was really a process to free ourselves from all those things and do whatever we want without cognition or conscience.

Without conscience humanity is doomed and if you don't believe in G-d then evolution is your number one reason for having conscience. We threw it out and instead became the primitives we were accused of by blindly embracing plain scripture instead of treating it as multileveled and full of nuance and import of differing levels of significance, and in doing so rendered our own religious faith into having no greater meaning that any given restaurant menu.

340 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:52:56pm

re: #328 OldLineTexan

So let me get this straight...you have changed your mind about chasing me?

Gosh, I don't know if we can be friends. Number one, you're kind of fickle. Number two, you've been a jerk to Mandy on this and another occasion that I witnessed (we ape people don't cotton to that), and number three, I don't date guys.


you leave cotton out of this

341 Brit in Japan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:53:28pm

re: #17 SagamoreGal

This witch hunt against Christians is trivial at best, scary at worst.

Don't be a tool! Christians the world over accept the facts of evolution... even the Pope himself has said so.

Only the DI says otherwise.

The DI is hunting and lying to good Christians.


BiJ.

342 Wendya  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:53:48pm

We are going backwards as a country.

343 Wendya  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:54:50pm

re: #17 SagamoreGal

This witch hunt against Christians is trivial at best, scary at worst.

Get a grip!

344 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:55:19pm

re: #340 spacejesus

you leave cotton out of this

How about Q-Tips? Still too soon?

345 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:57:22pm

re: #339 suitepotato

Good arguments. though I will point out that I never turned away from evolution.

346 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:57:25pm

re: #344 OldLineTexan

How about Q-Tips? Still too soon?

I tell you what, you start running down I-40 and since I go to school in NM, I will eventually catch you in a giant net by the time you leave the state

347 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 7:59:08pm

re: #346 SpaceJesus

I tell you what, you start running down I-40 and since I go to school in NM, I will eventually catch you in a giant net by the time you leave the state

I take it you are not studying geography. I-40? You jest.

Next time I pass through New Mexico, I'll forego flushing. In your honor.

348 Wendya  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:01:44pm

re: #347 OldLineTexan

Next time I pass through New Mexico, I'll forego flushing. In your honor.

As if your Texas tags didn't give you away......

349 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:04:20pm

Yawn. Moving on.

350 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:04:29pm

re: #347 OldLineTexan

I take it you are not studying geography. I-40? You jest.

Next time I pass through New Mexico, I'll forego flushing. In your honor.


just the part that goes through Albuquerque then

351 Unakite  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:04:35pm

re: #287 albusteve

Kentucky was once part of Texas...read some history...feh

Lots of whiskies. Bourbon is named after Bourbon County (KY).

352 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:04:55pm

re: #348 Wendya

As if your Texas tags didn't give you away......

Sorry, I'm just not as smart as SpaceJesus.

Please explain, if you would.

353 Wendya  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:06:31pm

re: #352 OldLineTexan

Sorry, I'm just not as smart as SpaceJesus.

Please explain, if you would.

I'll try again.

Do you know why New Mexico license plates have "New Mexico USA" written on them? It's because Texans keep trying to pay us with Pesos. ;)

354 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:08:14pm

re: #353 Wendya

I'll try again.

Do you know why New Mexico license plates have "New Mexico USA" written on them? It's because Texans keep trying to pay us with Pesos. ;)

HA! Well, it is cleaner than Old Mexico.

So, do you stay anywhere near SpaceJesus' kindergarten?

355 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:10:15pm

re: #354 OldLineTexan

HA! Well, it is cleaner than Old Mexico.

So, do you stay anywhere near SpaceJesus' kindergarten?


pedophiles

356 Wendya  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:10:54pm

re: #354 OldLineTexan

HA! Well, it is cleaner than Old Mexico.

So, do you stay anywhere near SpaceJesus' kindergarten?

I have no clue where he's from. Perhaps the caverns under Dulce?

357 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:12:34pm

re: #356 Wendya

I have no clue where he's from. Perhaps the caverns under Dulce?

I loved backpacking in the Gila, and I made sure to ask for "Chile con carne" in Silver City so I didn't get the bowl-of-peppers treatment.

Also a big fan of Philmont.

358 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:12:53pm

re: #339 suitepotato

A most excellent post- thank you!

359 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:15:42pm

re: #357 OldLineTexan

I loved backpacking in the Gila, and I made sure to ask for "Chile con carne" in Silver City so I didn't get the bowl-of-peppers treatment.

Also a big fan of Philmont.


what route did you take in Philmont? you probably wussed out and rode the donkeys

360 Wendya  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:19:02pm

re: #357 OldLineTexan


Also a big fan of Philmont.


That's a beautiful area. I'm west of there.

361 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:25:03pm

re: #359 spacejesus

what route did you take in Philmont? you probably wussed out and rode the donkeys

Let's leave your family out of this.

362 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:30:47pm

re: #361 OldLineTexan

Let's leave your family out of this.


so you're the morbidly obese man that broke my cousin's back

363 Lynn B.  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:31:34pm

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Would Jewish creationists instead be "oysters"?

(Get it? Oy-sters? Ahhh, never mind)

Still not kosher. ;-)

364 captwfcall  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:33:10pm

i think i ran over a t-rex with my car today. darn thing jumped right out in front of me when i was leaving work.

365 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:39:30pm
366 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:47:26pm
367 Tigger2005  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:29:34pm

I see Bruce Springsteen and the E-street Band is halftime Superbowl entertainment this year. I just can't look at Springsteen anymore without thinking "dumbass 'blue collar' moonbat."

368 funky chicken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:50:07pm

Hey, yet another reason to homeschool! Or, yet another reason to send kids to Catholic school....so they can learn real science, and not spend weeks "debating" creationism vs evolution.

You know, if they want to have an after school debate club, they could have creationism vs evolution be one of their topics. But it doesn't belong in the classroom during the school day.

369 funky chicken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 9:59:56pm

re: #339 suitepotato

I'd actually say that the condition of much of Africa proves your points. It really should stand as a warning to the rest of the world about the results of massive overpopulation relative to what the specific environment will support. Instead, we subsidize this destructive behavior...and therefore get more of it.

One small example: a guy named Rick Reilly (I think) who writes for Sports Illustrated did a big project to get malaria/mosquito netting to poor kids in Africa--a great thing. In his article about it, he highlighted a local chieftain who was raising his 23 kids in a "house" next to an open sewage pit. Um, mosquito nets aren't going to get those kids out of squalor.

A guy who used to do international development work wrote a book about this problem maybe 13 or so years ago. I'll go look for the title.

370 funky chicken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:02:30pm

Here it is:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

371 funky chicken  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:06:17pm

here's another one:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

372 teleskiguy  Fri, Jan 16, 2009 10:45:43pm

Yeah, stoopid with two "o's," indeed. For any english scholars out there, I need to know if the punctuation is correct in the first sentence of this post.
Has anyone checked to see if there is any punctuation in the Discovery Institute's silly textbook? I'll bet they can't tell a comma from an apostrophe. Which happens to be the crux of the biscuit.

373 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:12:47am
374 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:30:46am

re: #373 Tenacious

I don't think that being of interest to thuddingly ignorant maroons like yourself is high on Charles list of priorities, somehow. That said, have a nice day :D

375 freetoken  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:40:38am

re: #373 Tenacious

Evidently you may not be aware that Charles now deletes comments requesting him to stop posting on this topic...

376 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:49:41am
377 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:07:22am

re: #373 Tenacious

No, he won't, because he objects to all "idiotarian" crusades, of which creationism in schools is an example. Nevertheless, the real issue in my opinion is whether dogma will be taught in science classes instead of Science. And that's the rub. If one insists that students must be indoctrinated with the scientific consensus on gravity and the B.P. of water, then in addition to Darwinism, students will also be required to accept Global Warming without question. I'm against all indoctrination as far as Science is concerned, and yes, I do not think there is any conflict between Science and ID as a paradigm.

Tonight I'm about halfway through Dr. Michael Behe's new book on the limits of evolution in which Behe destroys the third leg of Darwinism. Behe accepts natural selection, and common descent, but he demonstrates convincingly using malaria and HIV as examples that mutations have not and cannot produce any complex structures.

Behe does not accept creationism, but looks for evidences of intelligent design outside a religious context, and concludes that the "blind watchmaker" is a complete fantasy. The ball is now definitely back in Dawkins' court. So far, the book is a fascinating, compelling read!

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

-sk

378 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 4:35:46am

re: #377 Spar Kling

Science is properly taught as a method, not as dogma. And that method requires empirical observation of the natural world. It's possible, I suppose, to make dogmatic claims for science-- look at all of the scientific hypotheses, e.g., "the sun revolves around the earth", later proven wrong.

I have no problem with "global warming" as a scientific hypothesis subject to challenge (as they all should be). There's no doubt that the Goreacle has larger ambitions for his pet "theory", however, by using religious (pagan) and emotional concepts to buttress it ("gaiea", "mother earth", etc.). The proper way to DISPROVE global warming as a scientific hypothesis is the scientific method. That method is laborious, requiring careful examination of, and criticism of, the evidence presented to support global warming.

The proper way to combat global warming as a religion is to point out that it's pagan and blasphemous. That effort takes about a minute.

379 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 6:33:18am

re: #376 Nemesis6

Madness, your post is.

380 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 6:40:47am

re: #377 Spar Kling

Behe's theories are what's been destroyed by science, not the other way around.

381 dcbatlle  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:00:43am

THE SCIENCE IS IN! THE DEBATE IS OVER!

Sounds familiar.

382 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:16:26am

re: #377 Spar Kling

The shameless liar is back, to spread more creationist nonsense. Michael Behe is a laughingstock in the field of biology, and has not published a single scientific paper or done a single experiment that supports his ludicrous nonsense.

We're still waiting for "Spar Kling" to provide links to those "peer reviewed" papers on intelligent design he promised -- he can't, there are none -- and tell us which field of science his "degree" is in -- he can't do that either, because he lied about it and really has no scientific background at all.

383 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:21:58am

I'll point out again that the only people who insultingly demand that I stop posting about this subject are creationists. They're trying to bully me into shutting up on the subject, and it is not going to work.

Bullying, lying, and insulting are the tactics creationists use.

384 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:30:13am

I forgot whining about being victimized and persecuted -- also a very popular tactic.

385 funky chicken  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:34:45am

re: #383 Charles

I have to give the creationists credit for their careful study and successful implementation of the same techniques the leftist "social science" folks used to take over academia. Write papers and books full of opaque language and then scream at the top of your lungs any time your thesis gets challenged by one of the few folks willing to trudge through page after page of obfuscation filled with enough "big words" to convince laymen that you must be smart and right, etc. I've got a master's in biochem and did genetic research in grad school, and I'm unwilling to read their crap to refute it simply because it's so damn boring...another weapon in their arsenal, I suppose.

386 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:38:34am

re: #383 Charles

Why? this is a good discussion.

387 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 8:54:56am

re: #385 funky chicken

I have to give the creationists credit for their careful study and successful implementation of the same techniques the leftist "social science" folks used to take over academia.

The similarity between the tactics of the far left and the tactics of creationists is pretty amazing. They both lie, they both obfuscate, they both use quotes out of context and twist facts beyond recognition, they both refuse to admit errors and repeat the same long-debunked arguments endlessly.

Then, when all else fails, they call you a Nazi and compare you to Hitler.

There's almost no difference in the behavior of these two groups.

388 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 9:53:56am

re: #381 dcbatlle

But, science is debate.

389 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 10:11:13am

re: #381 dcbatlle

THE SCIENCE IS IN! THE DEBATE IS OVER!

The point that keeps flying over some people's heads in these threads is that the Discovery Institute is not doing any science, they are doing politics. Even their pet scientists have stopped doing experimental science and are concentrating on writing polemics, disguised as labyrinthine critiques of other scientists' work. The debate will probably continue, but one side isn't bringing any tested results to the discussion.

390 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 10:50:34am

re: #389 jaunte

The point that keeps flying over some people's heads in these threads is that the Discovery Institute is not doing any science, they are doing politics. Even their pet scientists have stopped doing experimental science and are concentrating on writing polemics, disguised as labyrinthine critiques of other scientists' work. The debate will probably continue, but one side isn't bringing any tested results to the discussion.

The Wedge strategy that underlies the "intelligent design" movement outlines three phases to the Discovery Institute's long term plan:

Phase I: Scientific Research, Writing & Publicity,
Phase II: Publicity & Opinion-making, and
Phase III: Cultural Confrontation & Renewal.

In reality, they simply skipped over the first phase--the troublesome part about "scientific research"--and went straight into the public relations and "cultural confrontation." For all the money that's gone into the Discovery Institute and their "fellows" over the course of about 10 years, they've produced not a single piece of scientific research, not a single verifiable experiment, and not a single peer reviewed paper to support their repackaged creationist "theories."

391 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:08:07am

re: #387 Charles

I can't speak for all creationist but what I can say is that moonbatism not something that creationist that I know practice.
As a matter of fact American conservatism as well as our nation is based on a belief in a Creator, He is mentioned in the declaration of independence and without the Creator where do our rights come from?

392 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:10:33am

re: #391 Davehm

No- America was founded on a belief in individual rights and limited government.

393 dcbatlle  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #392 Sharmuta

No- America was founded on a belief in individual rights and limited government.

But nothing about God? Now who sounds like a Leftard.

394 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:13:29am

Also- "Creator" is Deist code speak. Many of our Founders were Deists.

395 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:14:10am

re: #392 Sharmuta

Yes those are part of the equation but the DOI does say we have a Creator...now if our founding fathers were wrong on that part how can we believe anything else they wrote?

396 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:16:44am

re: #391 Davehm

Ignoring facts that don't conform to your desired outcome is the essence of "moonbatism" and the antithesis of good science. That is what the Discovery Institute, Michael Behe, and creationists are engaged in.

397 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:16:48am

re: #394 Sharmuta

the Constitution was written in code?

398 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:17:05am

re: #393 dcbatlle

How many times does the word "God" appear in the Constitution?

399 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:18:08am

re: #397 Davehm

How many times does "Creator" appear in the Constitution?

400 dcbatlle  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:19:50am

re: #398 Sharmuta

How many times does the word "God" appear in the Constitution?

It appears in the Declaration of Independence, which is more than I can say for the word "atheism".

401 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:20:03am

re: #393 dcbatlle

"leftard" I might be a lot of things, a sinner saved by grace is one of them....but my friend I'm no lefty

402 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:21:19am

re: #400 dcbatlle

That wasn't the question.

403 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:22:11am

re: #399 Sharmuta

the same amount of times the seperation of church and state does

404 dcbatlle  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:22:36am

re: #403 Davehm

the same amount of times the seperation of church and state does

Bravo.

405 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:24:53am

re: #403 Davehm

So you think America is or should be a theocracy? What a joke.

406 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #403 Davehm

Except I didn't claim it did, so what's your point?

407 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:25:54am

re: #405 Jimmah

I never said that

408 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:28:09am

re: #407 Davehm

So you support the separation of church and state then?

409 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:29:51am

re: #406 Sharmuta

answer: zero

The Creator is mentioned in the DOI the very first doc. that founded our country

410 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:33:14am

re: #409 Davehm

The Declaration is indeed a founding document, but it is neither law nor a trump card of the Constitution, the highest law of the land. Likewise, the Declaration does not trump scientific fact.

411 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:35:05am

re: #395 Davehm

Yes those are part of the equation but the DOI does say we have a Creator...now if our founding fathers were wrong on that part how can we believe anything else they wrote?

And I'd just like to say- this is really warped logic. My father told me there was a Santa Claus- does that mean I can't believe anything else he ever told me?

412 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:36:43am

re: #408 Jimmah

Yes...I don't want government involved in my church or anyone Else's church for that matter.
I also don't want the government involved in the education of our youth on a national level, no where in the Constitution do we have a right to an education...it's a communist philosophy.
I think the whole education system should be left up to individual states.

413 dedalus  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:39:41am

re: #391 Davehm

The scientific work points to a Creator who evolved the human species. The state recognizes that however we were created that there are rights we possess that supercede the power of a limited government.

414 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #411 Sharmuta

my parents told me there was a Santa...I was a septic, to this day still examine everything they tell me.

415 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:41:02am

re: #411 Sharmuta

Yes - the argument is that anyone with a less than 100% record on the facts should be regarded as being 100% wrong on everything.

Illogical as this argument is - he is also very selective about applying it. In the bible, for example, the bat is referred to as a bird - don't see him applying this argument there.

416 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:43:04am

re: #414 Davehm

A "septic" huh? That's most unfortunate.

417 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:43:29am

re: #412 Davehm

You do realise that separation of church and state also means keeping religions from interfering in state business, for example teaching religious views as facts in state schools?

418 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:52:12am

re: #417 Jimmah


They don't teach God's truth in public schools...when they took prayer and the bible out of our school system back in the 60's chewing gum and talking in class were disciplinary problems of the day, now the kids are popping pills and shooting at each other so much for evolving.

419 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:53:40am

re: #418 Davehm

They don't teach God's truth in public schools

They can't! It's a violation of the First Amendment!

420 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:55:14am

Also- which version of "God's Truth"? The Catholic version? Maybe the Christian Scientists version? How about allah's version?

421 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:58:23am

re: #416 Sharmuta

I don't believe everything I hear... if you were to teach me the doctrine of Santa Clause and it proved to be false then I would question any other indoctrinating that you would throw my way.
when I was a kid the teaches in school told me there was an ice age coming, now leaders in the world and some in the scientific community say the globe is warming up...go figure

422 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:59:45am

re: #421 Davehm

Who has proven evolution false? With, you know, real, empirical data.

423 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:01:06pm

re: #418 Davehm

Classic evasion. Either answer the question or don't bother typing.

424 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:04:25pm

re: #418 Davehm

when they took prayer and the bible out of our school system back in the 60's chewing gum and talking in class were disciplinary problems of the day, now the kids are popping pills and shooting at each other so much for evolving.

So much for being saved from such vices by religion:

Youtube Video
425 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:05:28pm

re: #420 Sharmuta

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn 14:6)


the pope never made that claim
Mohammad never made that claim

426 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:07:56pm

Which Christian denomination do you belong to, 'Davehm'?

427 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:09:34pm

re: #425 Davehm

You fail to understand- that is a religious belief that, if allowed to be taught in a public school, would open the door for other religions to demand their doctrines be likewise taught. That is not a role I'm interested in publics schools playing. It's my right to teach my children about faith, and I will not relinquish that right to the government.

428 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:12:23pm

re: #422 Sharmuta

who's proven it true...see now where going around in circles
never has the DNA spieces been change to the DNA of another...
lower forms of life to higher?
happens at random?
no cause to the effect....
in the beginning there was nothing then the universe was formed?

429 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:13:56pm

re: #418 Davehm

I'll ask again. What is your opinion of those who are trying to force their particular religious views on the creation of the world into the science classes attended by all state pupils?

Do you understand that this is a violation of the principle of the separation of church and state?

430 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:18:02pm

re: #426 Charles

non-denominational, I received Christ when I was 38 years old and have been studying cults, world religions and untested scientific theory for the past 6 years.

431 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:18:12pm

re: #428 Davehm

Evolution has 150 years of withstanding scientific testing and in that time has only been shown to be one of the most sound theories in all of science. This is a fact- your opinion doesn't trump it.

432 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:18:43pm

re: #430 Davehm

untested scientific theory

You mean Intelligent Design?

433 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:19:57pm

re: #421 Davehm


when I was a kid the teaches in school told me there was an ice age coming, now leaders in the world and some in the scientific community say the globe is warming up...go figure

Oh, Lordy...

434 Jim D  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:20:42pm

re: #432 Sharmuta
it should really be 'untestable non-scientific theory'

435 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:21:58pm

re: #432 Sharmuta

Intelligent design is not even a scientific theory though.

436 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #434 Jim D

re: #435 Jimmah

I know, guys- I wanted to get that jab in though. ;D

437 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:23:35pm

re: #429 Jimmah

It isn't what isn't being taught, it is what they're teaching.
evolution when you look at it close falls apart, that leaves no other option that there is something outside the universe had to create it.

438 Jim D  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:24:22pm

re: #436 Sharmuta

I know. I almost wrote the same thing until I saw you post it.

439 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:24:56pm

re: #437 Davehm

Please give an example of evolutionary biology falling apart when you look at it closely.

440 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:25:04pm

re: #437 Davehm

Total evasion. Let's try again:

What is your opinion of those who are trying to force their particular religious views on the creation of the world into the science classes attended by all state pupils?

Do you understand that this is a violation of the principle of the separation of church and state?

441 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:25:52pm

re: #437 Davehm

evolution when you look at it close falls apart

No- it doesn't. There is no other theory in all of science more tested and validated by the scientific method than evolution.

442 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #437 Davehm

that leaves no other option that there is something outside the universe had to create it.

Agreed. Clearly a flying spaghetti monster is responsible for the creation of life. I insist children not be denied this vital knowledge.

443 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:27:38pm

re: #439 jaunte

Please give an example of evolutionary biology falling apart when you look at it closely.

Davehm's idea of looking at the science closely:

Image: copyingmisinformation.gif

444 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:29:59pm

re: #434 Jim D

If that's what you want to call evolution I'm fine with that,
remember it's still a believe system.

445 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:32:03pm

re: #444 Davehm

If that's what you want to call evolution I'm fine with that,
remember it's still a believe system.

No- it's not a "belief system" to accept empirical facts.

446 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:32:32pm

re: #444 Davehm

Please give an example of evolutionary biology falling apart when you look at it closely.

447 Jim D  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:32:43pm

re: #444 Davehm

I don't have to believe in science. Facts don't care what I think. The power of science is that it is not a belief system. Evolution is science

448 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:34:32pm

re: #445 Sharmuta

No- it's not a "belief system" to accept empirical facts.

Evolution is a belief system in the same way that atheism is a religion, creationism is a science, and Islam is a religion of peace. In other words, when language no longer means anything.

/Pat Condell

449 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:36:29pm

...We'll take a brief pause while creationist research attempts to find a gap in evolutionary biology...

450 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:37:28pm

re: #13 Sharmuta


Oh- and they're now bandwagoning onto "global warming" because it's a popular way to question science these days.

Glad I'm not the only one that's been noticing. I don't know about you, but it's been driving me crazy.

451 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #449 jaunte

...We'll take a brief pause while creationist research attempts to find a gap in evolutionary biology...

No, no! This fossil gives us two gaps. Two! Take that, Darwinists!

452 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:38:04pm

show me dna from one animal turn into the dna of a nother animal.

see you can't prove it
no transistional fosssils
the list goes on etc. etc.

453 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:38:12pm

re: #444 Davehm

You know Davehm, if you are unable to answer the question that has been put to you three times now, you should just give up -

What is your opinion of those who are trying to force their particular religious views on the creation of the world into the science classes attended by all state pupils?

Do you understand that this is a violation of the principle of the separation of church and state?

454 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #449 jaunte

...We'll take a brief pause while creationist research attempts to find a gap in evolutionary biology...

Here's a review of their 2008 accomplishments:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

(I took a lot of time trying to find this article, I hope a lot of people read it)

455 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:44:45pm

re: #452 Davehm

The transitional fossils are extensive. Here is just a partial list. And then there's retroviral DNA. These are just two examples- there's countless others.

456 Syrah  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:44:48pm

re: #452 Davehm

show me dna from one animal turn into the dna of a nother animal.

see you can't prove it
no transistional fosssils
the list goes on etc. etc.

You are not asking for scientific proof. You are asking for a demonstration of magic.

457 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:45:50pm

re: #452 Davehm

show me dna from one animal turn into the dna of a nother animal.

see you can't prove it
no transistional fosssils
the list goes on etc. etc.

Here's the number 616 turning into 666...

458 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:46:46pm

re: #453 Jimmah

no one is forcing anything... I personally think that the schools should teach that God created man in His image

459 Syrah  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:47:30pm

re: #455 Sharmuta

The transitional fossils are extensive. Here is just a partial list. And then there's retroviral DNA. These are just two examples- there's countless others.

I fear that you are very patiently trying to explain science to someone who can only accept magic.

460 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:47:42pm

re: #458 Davehm

Is that what you would teach if you were a high school biology teacher?

461 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:48:32pm

re: #458 Davehm

no one is forcing anything... I personally think that the schools should teach that God created man in His image

So- you want the government to violate the rights of the children's parents?

462 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:51:09pm

re: #459 Syrah

I fear that you are very patiently trying to explain science to someone who can only accept magic.

Possibly, but at least I'm enjoying myself and you never know when a breakthrough will occur.

463 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:51:43pm

re: #452 Davehm

show me dna from one animal turn into the dna of a nother animal.

see you can't prove it

Ring Species.

[Link: darwiniana.org...]

no transistional fosssils

[Link: darwiniana.org...]

There you go. Now, please don't try to tell us you've been studying evolutionary science for six years.

464 Syrah  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:55:08pm

re: #462 Sharmuta

Possibly, but at least I'm enjoying myself and you never know when a breakthrough will occur.

I am happy that you are enjoying yourself and are hopeful that reason will prevail.

Your tireless enthusiasm for rationality is an amazing thing to watch.

465 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:55:21pm

Guy's I gotta go I have a honeymoon to plan and I need to get somethings done.
we'll cont. this soon
Can I encourage you guys? God's given you a brain and He expects you to use it, study these things and try not to believe everything you hear.to say there is an effect (life) with out a cause and to say that the universe came out of nothing requires way to much faith.

466 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:56:47pm

re: #465 Davehm

"try not to believe everything you hear"

Lol.

467 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:56:52pm

re: #464 Syrah

Thanks- that means a lot to me.

468 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:56:53pm

re: #458 Davehm

no one is forcing anything... I personally think that the schools should teach that God created man in His image

This IS forcing religious views onto people who very well may not share them or want them. People may have different beliefs altogether, or no religious beliefs. That is why it can never be the state's role to reinforce religious faith.

469 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 12:58:53pm

re: #457 Basho

Here's the number 616 turning into 666...

[Link: www.randi.org...]

470 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:02:08pm

They always bail when the facts get too deep and thick.

471 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:06:41pm

re: #470 Sharmuta

They always bail when the facts get too deep and thick.

Notice how they always have to leave because they have to go do something cool?

-It was nice regurgitating ignorant anti-evolution talking points, but now I must deliver children letters to Santa to the International Space Station. Ta ta!

472 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:12:14pm

re: #465 Davehm

The Theory of Evolution has absolutely nothing to say about how the universe came to be. I've no doubt that it can now be definitively said that you know little to nothing about the theory of evolution, nor the scientific method. Either that, or you are intentionally confusing things in order to cloud the issue.

If you are being honest about having an upcoming honeymoon, then I hope you have a great time. I mean that sincerely.

473 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:28:41pm

re: #471 Basho

That's a totally unfair thing to say, Basho. As for me, I'd love to hang around here and discuss the point further, but I'm supposed to be having dinner with Maria Grazia Cucinotta in a hot air balloon. Guess I'll have to go ;-)

474 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:31:23pm

re: #473 Jimmah

Take your time, friend. She's still in my shower. ;)

475 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:32:52pm

re: #473 Jimmah

I didn't know who that was until I did a google image search. Aye Chihuahua!

476 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 1:44:35pm

Well, it's been nice chatting with y'all, but I gotta split. I have chores to do am to receive the Nobel Prize for Sexiest Dude on the Interwebs, and I need to pick up my date for the engagement, the Brazilian Bikini Team.

There is too such a thing!

477 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:02:49pm

re: #378 quickjustice

Science is properly taught as a method, not as dogma. And that method requires empirical observation of the natural world. It's
possible, I suppose, to make dogmatic claims for science-- look at all
of the scientific hypotheses, e.g., "the sun revolves around the
earth", later proven wrong.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, that's not how Science is often taught at the secondary level. Actually, the sun and earth revolve around a center of gravity of the solar system located within the sun. :-)

I have no problem with "global warming" as a scientific hypothesis subject to challenge (as they all should be). There's no doubt that the Goreacle has larger ambitions for his pet "theory", however, by using religious (pagan) and emotional concepts to buttress it ("gaiea",
"mother earth", etc.). The proper way to DISPROVE global warming as a
scientific hypothesis is the scientific method. That method is
laborious, requiring careful examination of, and criticism of, the
evidence presented to support global warming.

Well said. It is possible that heavier-than-normal snowfall in winter is indeed evidence for some global warming because warmer oceans result in a higher rate of evaporation (I'm thinking about the east coast and "nor'easters"). Of course, "climate change" is constant and cannot be stopped. The fact that Goremanics have seized on climate change as a convenient tool to achieve political ends muddies the science as much as if some religion got involved for their purposes.

The proper way to combat global warming as a religion is to point out that it's pagan and blasphemous. That effort takes about a minute.

Really? How would you do that?

-sk

478 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:24:59pm

re: #472 Slumbering Behemoth

Thanks, I didn't intend for it to come off as boasting as some of the other posts suggest...were probably going to stay local.

479 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:31:12pm

re: #382 Charles

The shameless liar is back, to spread more creationist nonsense. Michael Behe is a laughingstock in the field of biology, and has not published a single scientific paper or done a single experiment that
supports his ludicrous nonsense.

We're still waiting for "Spar Kling" to provide links to those "peer
reviewed" papers on intelligent design he promised -- he can't, there
are none -- and tell us which field of science his "degree" is in -- he
can't do that either, because he lied about it and really has no
scientific background at all.

Charles, while I won't respond to your egregious personal attacks, I will say this: I do not believe that creationism should be taught in science classes and I am strongly against any "wedge strategy," but I do believe that Intelligent Design, Darwinian evolution, and Lamarkianism evolution should be examined at the secondary level, along with the evidence for and against them (avoiding any dogmatism).

According to the bio on the back of Behe's book The Edge of Evolution, Michael Behe did postdoctoral work on DNA Structure at the National Institutes of Health. He has authored more than 40 technical papers. Other sources confirm that his PhD is in Biochemistry and that his dissertation was on sickle cell disease.

You should read his latest book before making your judgments.

-sk

480 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:37:29pm

Kenneth Miller: Behe has done his sums wrong...

One important point that Miller brings up is that Behe's book is teetering on a hinge of bad statistics, citing the research on malaria to show that spontaneous resistance to anti-malarial drugs occur in 1 individual in 10^20.

Linking that to the age of the virus, Behe concludes, in his book, that:

"On average, for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would need to wait a hundred million times ten million years. Since that is many times the age of the universe, it's reasonable to conclude the following: No mutation that is of the same complexity as chloroquine resistance in malaria arose by Darwinian evolution in the line leading to humans in the past ten million years."

Sounds good, doesn't it?

What Miller realized, and what should become obvious upon inspection, is that Behe's figure, 1 in 10^20, does not represent the probability of the mutation occuring. Miller writes:

"Behe, incredibly, thinks he has determined the odds of a mutation "of the same complexity" occurring in the human line. He hasn't. What he has actually done is to determine the odds of these two exact mutations occurring simultaneously at precisely the same position in exactly the same gene in a single individual. He then leads his unsuspecting readers to believe that this spurious calculation is a hard and fast statistical barrier to the accumulation of enough variation to drive Darwinian evolution."

[Link: www.rawfish.com.au...]

481 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:39:26pm

re: #479 Spar Kling

According to the bio on the back of Behe's book The Edge of Evolution, Michael Behe did postdoctoral work on DNA Structure at the National Institutes of Health. He has authored more than 40 technical papers. Other sources confirm that his PhD is in Biochemistry and that his dissertation was on sickle cell disease.

Again with the misdirection. Not a single paper which which Behe has been involved has anything to do with the "intelligent design" fraud, and you know it.

Behe is even an embarrassment to Lehigh University, who issued a formal position statement distancing themselves from his crackpot creationist ideas.

482 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:41:59pm

hey anyone, what's this rating system about...if I get to many negatives do I have to go to detention?

483 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:42:58pm

re: #482 Davehm

I'd love to tell you about it, but it will have to wait. I'm late for tea with the Queen of Sweden.

484 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:43:55pm

re: #483 Sharmuta

oh come on

485 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:48:24pm

Posted at the Lehigh University Department of Biological Sciences:

The department faculty, then, are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of "intelligent design." While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.

486 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 2:59:30pm

re: #427 Sharmuta

You fail to understand- that is a religious belief that, if allowed
to be taught in a public school, would open the door for other
religions to demand their doctrines be likewise taught. That is not a
role I'm interested in publics schools playing. It's my right to teach
my children about faith, and I will not relinquish that right to the
government.

I agree with you. But did you know that Islam is already a part of the curriculum in California schools? Here are a couple of links:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]
[Link: www.truthorfiction.com...]

I'm not against a course in the survey of religions at the secondary level, but I think that requiring students to pray to Allah, memorize verses from the Koran, and adopt Islamic names is over the line. Public schools should not be doing this for any religion, and certainly not in any science classes.

And California in particular, considering that their test scores are close to the bottom in the nation even after spending about half the budget of the nearly bankrupted state on education (note: this estimate also includes post-secondary expenditures) might be advised to focus more on a complete education overhaul below college level rather than continuing to curse the lives of their students with a grossly substandard education.

-sk

487 Davehm  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:04:23pm

re: #486 Spar Kling

What's really creepy is that in Islam all you have to do is confess that there is no God but Alla and Mohammad is his only prophet if you recite that as far as the Muslims are concerned you theirs.

488 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:07:59pm

re: #486 Spar Kling

Did you read your own link?

Nancie Castro, the principle at the middle school, denies the children were taught to pray or that any of the children was required to participate in the cultural activities of wearing Middle-Eastern clothing or choosing a Moslem name. She told the Contra Costa Times that wearing the clothing was something offered for extra credit.

Educators with whom TruthOrFiction.com has spoken, however, say that they feel that the article sensationalized the issue and included some misinformation.

[Link: www.truthorfiction.com...]

And WND? Puh-lease!

489 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:19:19pm

re: #480 jaunte

Miller writes:

"Behe, incredibly, thinks he has determined the odds of a mutation "of the same complexity" occurring in the human line. He hasn't. What he has actually done is to determine the odds of these two exact mutations occurring simultaneously at precisely the same position in exactly the same gene in a single individual. He then leads his unsuspecting readers to believe that this spurious calculation is a hard and fast statistical barrier to the accumulation of enough variation to drive Darwinian evolution."

This is not what Behe computed. In his book, Behe does take into account the effect of the size of population. In fact, it is precisely the fact that malaria produces billions of individuals in a single human multiplied by the billion or so humans infected with the disease that gives malaria such a huge evolutionary advantage over humans. And not just any mutation produces the effect on hemoglobin needed to stop malaria. Behe also describes several other mutations that also counteract malaria.

-sk

490 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:21:10pm

re: #488 Sharmuta

Did you read your own link?

[Link: www.truthorfiction.com...]

And WND? Puh-lease!

I did. That's why I posted the truth or fiction link as a counter-balance. It's never wise to accept only one side of any controverial story.

-sk

491 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:22:37pm

re: #490 Spar Kling

Yet you present it as though it's true. That's very disingenuous of you.

492 jaunte  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:24:51pm

re: #489 Spar Kling

Billions; my, that's a big number:

"What's particularly astonishing about this is that even this rotten argument - taking an artifically inflated probability number based on the peculiarities of the biochemistry of one specific organism, and applying it to a completely different organism (waving hands furiously to try to distract from the fact that it's just nonsensical to cross that way), contains its own refutation. Yes, perhaps the odds of this happening are similar to the odds of winning at powerball. But the fact is someone wins the powerball lottery. He wants to pretend that it's unlikely by pointing at you specifically, and saying that it's like you winning the lottery. But in fact, the power of evolution is that it doesn't just try one thing. It's not a process of one mutation, wait and see if it works out and fixes in the population; it's not a process with a predetermined destination. It's a process of countless mutations happening at the some time - some propagate, some don't - and if any of them work, then they take over. The real chance of evolution producing something are like the chances of someone winning the lottery. The chances of them producing humanity taken a priori are like the chances of you winning the lottery; but since humanity was not a predestined result, the chances of the evolutionary sweepstakes producing something is like the chances of someone winning the lottery - i.e., virtually inevitable.


Behe's Dreadful New Book: A Review of "The Edge of Evolution"
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

493 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:43:41pm

re: #491 Sharmuta

Yet you present it as though it's true. That's very disingenuous of you.


No. The parents of these students did not concoct a story out of thin air. And the education establishment would indeed cover over what actually happened in the classroom. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

-sk

494 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:44:37pm

re: #493 Spar Kling

One parent. The story is based off an interview with one parent.

495 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 3:47:08pm

re: #481 Charles

Again with the misdirection. Not a single paper which which Behe has been involved has anything to do with the "intelligent design" fraud,
and you know it.

Behe is even an embarrassment to Lehigh University, who issued a
formal position statement distancing themselves from his crackpot
creationist ideas.

That's not what I said. Behe's degree and published papers speak to his credibility. And speaking of which, how many papers published in reputable journals can you cite that contradict global warming? This cuts both ways, you know.

-sk

496 Basho  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 4:02:56pm

re: #495 Spar Kling

...how many papers published in reputable journals can you cite that contradict global warming? This cuts both ways, you know.

Sigh...

497 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 4:26:33pm

re: #495 Spar Kling

That's not what I said. Behe's degree and published papers speak to his credibility.

Behe's degree and published papers say absolutely nothing about his credibility to weigh in on subjects like evolution. His own university posted a disclaimer that he's on his own with that crypto-creationist garbage -- an unprecedented step.

And you conveniently glossed over the fact that Behe has never published a single paper or done a single experiment related to his consumer-oriented intelligent design fantasies. There is no science backing up any of it. His credibility is nil.

498 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 4:32:30pm

re: #495 Spar Kling

And your credibility is below nil, after all the tricks and deceptions you've tried to pull.

499 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 5:23:47pm

re: #101 zosthrowin

Can these people follow their equally-as-narrow President out the door on Tuesday, past the trailer park, into the bog and back under the cultural rock they crawled out from under and leave the 21st century to people who say might occasionally read a book other than the Bible...

Way to go...you've managed to generalize Christians as narrow-minded, knuckle-dragging, anti-science morons while making yourself sound like a complete putz!

FOAD....I don't want or need people like you at my side, Mr. Asshole Troll.

500 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 7:54:23pm

re: #458 Davehm

no one is forcing anything... I personally think that the schools should teach that God created man in His image

So for you it is okay for our schools to teach religion as science.

Given that I assume you would agree that it is okay to teach the man has created god in his own image. (At least there is significant evidence of that claim.) Or that sciense is wrong and the world is held up on the back of an Eliphant.
Or that Chemistry is all wrong because there are not very many elements at all, only fire, water, air and earth.

In the final analysis, what you want.... destroys the foundation of education and is contrary to the principles this country was founded on.

501 el guape  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 9:08:28pm
We assume these people will also call for standard that demand critical thinking in the theory of the boiling temperature of water and whether gravity makes things go up or down.

I really dislike straw men fallacies. And ad-hominem attacks.

The difficulty I have with the materialist worldview is morality - if everything is essentially material, why do we rail against radical islamic extremism as if it were wrong? Where does the idea that Hamas using children as meat shields is morally offensive?

502 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 9:25:56pm

Here we go again.

503 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 9:48:49pm

re: #490 Spar Kling

I did. That's why I posted the truth or fiction link as a counter-balance. It's never wise to accept only one side of any controverial story.

-sk

Another obvious lie.

504 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 9:58:31pm

re: #501 el guape

I really dislike straw men fallacies. And ad-hominem attacks.

The difficulty I have with the materialist worldview is morality - if everything is essentially material, why do we rail against radical islamic extremism as if it were wrong?

If you think our being made of matter or some kind of immaterial 'soul stuff' makes a blind bit of difference how we should behave toward one another then you don't have much of an understand of morality at all.

Where does the idea that Hamas using children as meat shields is morally offensive?

Well it sure as hell doesn't come from religion - Hamas have got that coming out of their eyes. You really should pick your examples with more care.

505 el guape  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 10:20:20pm

re: #504 Jimmah

The first point I made in my post is that the logical fallacy in the article Charles posted subtracts from the argument the author was attempting to make.

I am sorry if you misunderstood my second point. I probably could have written it more concisely. I mean to argue that a solely material worldview is one in which no meaning can possibly be derived from anything. This is fairly standard stuff that Dawkins understands. Without meaning, there is no morality. Moral law implies a moral law giver.

And please don't lump religions into one category when they make mutually exclusive claims. The false morality enforced by Islam strikes you as wrong because you believe human life is valuable. In principle, Islam does not share that view.

Just wondering, where do you derive that view from?

506 pie22  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 10:37:52pm

Charles,
Please do not ever stop posting threads about this, no matter who complains. I have children in a private non-denominational Christian school
and I am witness to this creationism crap every day. It is not pretty. My 14 year old daughter is fully equipped to lay out facts vs. fantasy at any given moment on this subject, and lo and behold, she manages to defend her faith at the same time. Politicians and teachers know that most parents do not pay attention to this subject and they are starting to take full advantage of that. They are, without a doubt, directly targeting our children with their whacked out agenda. They will be able to eventually get away with this because of the lack of parental common sense. I absolutely equate it to child abuse. Sadly, once we have brainwashed our children to believe science is evil, that facts are meaningless, and that you are socially unacceptable because you insist on factual evidence,the consequences will be grave. I guess I should just tell the kids, "If your lucky kiddies, you might be one of the chosen on the day of the apocalypse, then you do not have to worry about all those crazy facts, now shut up and eat your peas"!

507 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 10:50:42pm

re: #501 el guape


The difficulty I have with the materialist worldview is morality - if everything is essentially material, why do we rail against radical islamic extremism as if it were wrong? Where does the idea that Hamas using children as meat shields is morally offensive?

So let's return to the basic creationism/evolution portion of the thread. You have "difficulty...with the materialist worldview." But science is a study of that material world. It is not a study of morality, or religion. It is the study of the 'how' of existence, our living world, our energy systems, our everything that can be sense, viewed, tested... etc.

You, from your worldview which is religious in context must view the world as only a god created entity and you ignore the 'how.' You find fault with us because we are unwilling to refocus attention on your worldview because it is contrary to law, and is an abomination as 'science.'
You compound the problem by changing the subject, and essentially stating that without an absolute 'Moral Law-giver' (god), there can be no moral behavior. Again a reliance on your religious worldview, not facts, not tested hypothese, just your faith.
But this whole discussion becomes pointless, because you want to impose a religious doctrine on a non-religious subject.

508 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:15:02pm

re: #505 el guape

I mean to argue that a solely material worldview is one in which no meaning can possibly be derived from anything. This is fairly standard stuff that Dawkins understands. Without meaning, there is no morality. Moral law implies a moral law giver.

Nonsense - and Dawkins does not espouse the view that no meaning can be derived from anything on account of materialism. Morality is founded on the need to live fairly with ones fellow beings with whom one has common cause and a common stake. Morality was 'given' by the experience of our species as it evolved in extended social groups. Individuals who lacked a moral 'sense' - who were unable to empathise with their fellow beings didn't on the whole do well in these social settings, where things like team effort and mutual support are the key to success. Such people would have found themselves in ill favour, ostracised or killed for their sociopathic tendencies. Natural selection in these circumstances favoured those with the neural circuitry to value their fellow man. It's a simple matter of fact that there are cultures who do not believe in a law giving God but who are just as moral as anyone else in their attitudes regarding all the important moral issues such as killing, stealing, lying etc. Morality that is 'given' in your sense is simply a set of commands that one obeys due to the percieved power of the giver. That seems pretty empty to me.

And please don't lump religions into one category when they make mutually exclusive claims. The false morality enforced by Islam strikes you as wrong because you believe human life is valuable. In principle, Islam does not share that view.

Just wondering, where do you derive that view from?

That's my point, really - having a 'spiritual' law giver is no guarantee that the laws in question will be any good.

Human life is valuable to me because I like humans, and I generally don't like to see them suffer or endure unfair treatment, because as a human I know what that is like. It's called empathy, and it's hard wired into the neural circuitry of the brain.

509 el guape  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:31:42pm

re: #507 Haverwilde

You have quoted me out of context. I pointed out that it is difficult (and by this I mean impossible) for a materialist worldview to include morality, because morals are not material. Fairly simple. And yes, science is a study of material things and by definition cannot study that which is not material. I agree wholeheartedly.

And I don't find fault with you for failing to focus on 'my worldview' at all - please point out where I stated that you should focus on 'my worldview'. I merely point out that morality cannot be found through a materialist view of the universe.

Please demonstrate where I have argued that science is an 'abomination.'

The subject was not changed at all. I even went as far as to further clarify the two points I made, and attempted to show that from a purely material worldview one cannot derive morality. I also did not claim there could be 'no moral behavior'. I claimed that moral law implies a moral law giver. That's all. Atheists can behave morally, however they cannot provide a reason why they do.

Not all knowledge is empirical. To claim such a thing would be irrational.

Further, please point out to me where I advocated imposing 'a a religious doctrine on a non-religious subject.'

To repeat the point in a more relevant context....why is it wrong for Behe and the ID crowd to push their agenda into schools? Is it because their ideas are debunked, trashed, scoffed at etc by the worlds eminent scientists? Still....so what? The materialist worldview cannot claim that pushing lies on people is wrong because that is a moral claim.

510 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:36:01pm

Good luck with this maroon, Haverwilde. I'm off to my bed. G'nite...

511 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:50:54pm

re: #503 Jimmah

Another obvious lie.

That I posted two links is demonstratably true, that the two links represent two extreme points of view is verifiable by inspection. That I did this to present two perspectives might not be as obvious to a less-than-generous reader, but is certainly reasonable in that I did not simply link to only one reference. That I believe that there is substance to the claim is also easily verifiable. That it is never wise to accept one side of any controverial story is the principle behind cross-examination in a court of law.

So what exactly am I supposed to be "obviously" lying about this time?

-sk

512 El Guape  Sat, Jan 17, 2009 11:54:45pm

re: #510 Jimmah

Nice ad hominem. Another logical fallacy.

If morality is evolved you are in no better position to impose your morality on Hamas than you are your reason on a spotted leopard. Hama's morality just evolved to use kids as meatshields. Who are we to say that their morality is less evolved than our own? Are we more evolved than a horned toad? No. The toad is perfectly suited for it's environment, and we do not try to tell it how to act. Why to we say to Hamas what they are doing is wrong?

Your claims that God does not exist whilst a universal morality does exist are false, as demonstrated by Hamas. With the support of millions of people claiming a radically different morality than your own (did their morality evolve differently than yours? If so, who are you to claim it to be wrong?) it is difficult for you to argue that all morality is equal when you claim the precise opposite.

My worldview can explain yours, but yours cannot explain mine.

513 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 12:11:19am

re: #509 el guape

Here's a quote you might like that supports your view:

For example, Dostoevski had Ivan Karamazov claim, "If there is no God, everything is permitted." Sartre wrote of Dostoevski's statement, "That is the very starting point of existentialism. Indeed, everything is permissible if God does not exist, and as a result man is forlorn, because neither within him nor without does he find anything to cling to."

El gaupe, you are in good company!

-sk

514 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 12:47:17am

re: #505 el guape

I mean to argue that a solely material worldview is one in which no meaning can possibly be derived from anything

What's interesting is it's your worldview that dictates this to you.

515 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 3:31:29am

re: #514 Sharmuta

Hi Sharmuta. Your name has a humorously bad meaning in Arabic...but you probably know that.

I mean to argue that a solely material worldview is one in which no meaning can possibly be derived from anything

What's interesting is it's your worldview that dictates this to you.

Actually, it's reason that dictates that meaning or morality cannot be derived from the physical processes that we observe and test.

So yes, my worldview, based on reason, does dictate this. Thank you for arguing my point.

516 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 3:41:15am

re: #513 Spar Kling

That was a fantastic book. Dostoevsky was quite the psychologist.

Also, check out our +/- score. Someone doesn't like debate. Heh.

517 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 3:50:12am

A friend of mine, Bubba, once said this about the subject:

Evolution, it is claimed, can account for changes in caterpillars and the lizards that our scientists have studied. Never mind the logical leap that it takes to go from changes in caterpillars to the caterpillars themselves: can evolution account for the scientists?

If the behavior of a scientist can be wholly explained as a byproduct of the spasms and collisions of an unguided universe, there is no reason to trust that behavior: the behavior may be useful in the sense of aiding gene propagation — and then again, it may not, as the number of evolutionary dead ends must be extraordinary — but there is no necessary connection leading from utility to logical validity.

The materialist looks to the heavens and argues that the stars are the result of unguided chaos, and he looks to the fields and posits that the cattle too are by-products of chance. And then he looks in a mirror and concludes, what? That he too is nothing more than the result of random chemical reactions?

If he does that, then there is no reason to trust his arguments about the stars and the cows. The thoughts and words that bubble up from his brain are as logically valid as trustworthy, and as rational as the bile produced by his liver: his thoughts may be produced by a more complex chemical reaction, but the slight difference in chemical complexity gives us no good reason to trust the result.

Turning his naturalism against himself, the naturalist destroys the reasons to trust the conclusions he reaches. He has, essentially, argued that all arguments are invalid and cut the very branch on which he sits.

518 Haverwilde  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 7:59:38am

re: #509 el guape

You have quoted me out of context. I pointed out that it is difficult (and by this I mean impossible) for a materialist worldview to include morality, because morals are not material.

What is out of context is this portion of the discussion on a Creationist/evolution thread. But I believe I characterized your comments correctly. But what you 'pointed out' is just your opinion, from your worldview, without any basis in fact, background or developed presentation.

Fairly simple. And yes, science is a study of material things and by definition cannot study that which is not material. I agree wholeheartedly.

And I don't find fault with you for failing to focus on 'my worldview' at all - please point out where I stated that you should focus on 'my worldview'. I merely point out that morality cannot be found through a materialist view of the universe.


You just did, what you asked me to do: "Please point our where..." Right in your next sentence. Your impose your worldview when you say that a morality cannot be found through a materialist view...."

Please demonstrate where I have argued that science is an 'abomination.'


You didn't say that, I said: It is an abomination to teach 'creationism' as science.

The subject was not changed at all. I even went as far as to further clarify the two points I made, and attempted to show that from a purely material worldview one cannot derive morality. I also did not claim there could be 'no moral behavior'. I claimed that moral law implies a moral law giver. That's all. Atheists can behave morally, however they cannot provide a reason why they do.


Thus imposing your worldview, without facts, or data, only your blind faith. And I say again, this discussion is pointless. You refuse to attempt to see the world from any context other than your worldview, and that world view is an anathema to a scientific process.

Not all knowledge is empirical. To claim such a thing would be irrational.

All knowledge is empirical, that which isn't, is irrational, (Correct perhaps, but not subject to the rational process).

Further, please point out to me where I advocated imposing 'a a religious doctrine on a non-religious subject.'


You are doing it throughout this discussion. 'Creationism' is not science, it is religion.

To repeat the point in a more relevant context....why is it wrong for Behe and the ID crowd to push their agenda into schools? Is it because their ideas are debunked, trashed, scoffed at etc by the worlds eminent scientists? Still....so what? The materialist worldview cannot claim that pushing lies on people is wrong because that is a moral claim.


It is wrong because it is promoting a religious worldview on a non-religious subject. It is contrary to law. And it is an abomination as Science.

519 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 8:25:19am

re: #509 el guape

To repeat the point in a more relevant context....why is it wrong for Behe and the ID crowd to push their agenda into schools? Is it because their ideas are debunked, trashed, scoffed at etc by the worlds eminent scientists? Still....so what? The materialist worldview cannot claim that pushing lies on people is wrong because that is a moral claim.

Brilliant. So your argument is that the best way to fight "materialism" is to lie.

You've tied yourself into a rhetorical knot, but like most fanatics, you think you've made a good point.

520 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 8:26:49am

re: #516 el guape

That was a fantastic book. Dostoevsky was quite the psychologist.

Also, check out our +/- score. Someone doesn't like debate. Heh.

Sorry to deflate your self-congratulatory balloon, but that actually means people think your arguments are ludicrous.

521 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:04:59am

I just called you a maroon. That's not a 'logical fallacy' as it did not form part of a logical argument. It was just a stand alone insult. You obviously don't understand the difference.

If morality is evolved you are in no better position to impose your morality on Hamas than you are your reason on a spotted leopard. Hama's morality just evolved to use kids as meatshields. Who are we to say that their morality is less evolved than our own? Are we more evolved than a horned toad? No. The toad is perfectly suited for it's environment, and we do not try to tell it how to act. Why to we say to Hamas what they are doing is wrong?

The essentials of morality - ie the ability to empathise - evolved. How different groups of human beings apply this empathy - how large the 'circle of empathy' is and how to deal with those who are outside of it - as well as particular details regarding the punishment of crimes, social freedoms etc - that is worked out differently by different cultures. Some cultures have a very small circle of empathy that extends only to the close members of their defined group. More enlightened ones try to extend the circle of empathy to the rest of the human race. Less enlightened ones - and we find the hand of religion playing a large part here - restrict their empathy to those inside the group and regard those outside as in some way sub-human. This was no doubt a very successful strategy for groups that were competing fiercely for limited resources. Be nice to each other, fuck the outsiders.

You cannot explain why it is that cultures that do not have a law giving God are just as moral as anyone else with regard to the essentials - killing, stealing, lying and so on - this fact makes a complete nonsense of your entire case. Interesting that you just try to skip past this point without addressing it. It is you that doesn't like debate, buddy.

Your claims that God does not exist whilst a universal morality does exist are false, as demonstrated by Hamas. With the support of millions of people claiming a radically different morality than your own (did their morality evolve differently than yours? If so, who are you to claim it to be wrong?) it is difficult for you to argue that all morality is equal when you claim the precise opposite.

My worldview can explain yours, but yours cannot explain mine.

I don't know if there is a God - my opinion is that there probably isn't one, at least not as commonly understood. Like it or not, there are essentials of morality that can be found in every human culture, regardless of the belief in a law giving god, and I explained what they were. All you can do is point to the fact that moral values are not identical in every respect in all cultures, a fact which is easily explained without assuming the reality of a law giving god.

Given the nonsense you spouted earlier about Dawkins, I doubt very much that grasping other's world view is your forte.

522 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:12:37am

re: #515 el guape

Actually, it's reason that dictates that meaning or morality cannot be derived from the physical processes that we observe and test.

So yes, my worldview, based on reason, does dictate this. Thank you for arguing my point.

But your worldview isn't based on reason. You have pre-determined your end result, and any reasoning used to get to your pre-existing end result is biased towards that goal.

Science, on the other hand, has no pre-determined end result. The evidence is examined and coupled with reasoning to arrive at a scientific answer. Scientists form hypotheses and test them to see if they are accurate. If they're not, a new hypothesis is formed. No pre-determined end result would stand if the evidence didn't support it.

But what I really find disturbing about your worldview is how utterly black and white it is. There are actually people in this world that accept both science and God. But somehow I get the feeling that those of us who accept both are just as unwelcome in your view as those eeevil materialists.

523 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:30:10am

re: #511 Spar Kling


That I did this to present two perspectives might not be as obvious to a less-than-generous reader, but is certainly reasonable in that I did not simply link to only one reference. That I believe that there is substance to the claim is also easily verifiable. That it is never wise to accept one side of any controverial story is the principle behind cross-examination in a court of law.

You really think you are kidding anyone with that? Wow.


So what exactly am I supposed to be "obviously" lying about this time?

"I am not lying about X" followed immediately by:
"What am I supposed to be lying about?"

It just gets better.

524 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:43:02am

If your moral framework dictates that you must renounce science, ignore facts, and deny physical evidence, that framework is built on a lie. It's delusional to insist that true morality depends on blindness to reality.

525 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 11:20:15am

It's bedtime for me here, thanks for the replies to all.

First off, to reply to Jimmah's insult, they are called ad-hominem fallacies because they deviate from attacking one's argument to attacking that person. Akin to debating, say, which color of Shelby is best and then claiming victory by pronouncing your opponent a racist if he/she doesn't like black. They aren't logical and subtract from your argument. Further, you have not demonstrated that

cultures that do not have a law giving God are just as moral as anyone else

are in fact as moral as anyone else. And as for me being able to grasp other's world views...I live and work in Abu Dhabi, UAE. My closest friend at work is a Sunni Muslim from Lebanon, and my direct supervisor is also a Sunni from Syria. We have great discussions about God and Allah, the concept of freedom and how that impacts our relationships with women (which are viewed as possessions in the Islam) and why the Danish government can't stop newspapers from posting Muhammad cartoons. I'm sure Charles can verify that I'm posting from the UAE somehow. I'm doing it from several different computers, though. One at work and either the lappy or pc at home.

Second, to Charles, sorry if I wasn't that clear in my point in post #509. I meant to argue that from a materialist perspective (yours) it is impossible for you to claim that Behe et al. to be 'wrong' or 'bad' in pushing their agenda, simply because there is no moral right or wrong. That's the point. Even if they lie, murder, steal, bribe, extort etc to win, who are materialists to say that they are wrong? And you too make an ad-hominem fallacy when you make the 'fanatic' insult. I have a lot of respect for you and thoroughly enjoy reading your blog and have directed many of my friends and colleagues here. I don't appreciate the insults, though.

The only 'morality' espoused here by materialists is that 'it's the law' or 'it helps the group'. This is a massive problem for materialists, as laws change. Is it moral to own slaves? Cut off a hand for stealing? Abort a third trimester pregnancy? Marry a 6 year old? But but but the Law says.... Group values also change. Several large groups held it to be moral to exterminate Jews in large numbers in gas chambers roughly 60 years ago. All sorts of otherwise reasonable people agreed and helped to achieve this goal. Is this morality?

Third, to Haver, pointing out that the morality cannot be derived from a materialist world view does not enforce that world view on anyone. I'm sorry if you feel that it does. It's a truth claim and you have not refuted it. I have also stated that atheists can behave morally. Cultures without knowledge of God can behave morally, as God has written his law on their hearts (see Romans 2:14-15 for reference). My point isn't that people who don't believe in God are incapable of acting morally. My point is that without God there is no universal morality. This stands up fairly well in academia and on this blog.

None of you have addressed the quote from Bubba as I think it's far more clear than any of my own arguments about the subject. The reasoning behind it is solid, so to claim that my world view is without reason or to claim that you are the sole possessors of reason is irrational.

Ah, I'm out of time. Thanks again for the responses.

526 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 11:29:10am

Oh hey Charles. Just posted and saw your most recent post, which was a large straw man fallacy. It would be rather hard for me, as an engineer, to renounce science or facts. Your point is rational, and I agree completely with it - indeed if one's morality required one to believe one was a poached egg that morality would be false. But attributing those qualities to me or my worldview is a straw man.

527 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 11:41:23am

re: #525 el guape

None of you have addressed the quote from Bubba as I think it's far more clear than any of my own arguments about the subject. The reasoning behind it is solid, so to claim that my world view is without reason or to claim that you are the sole possessors of reason is irrational.

No- "bubba" did not use solid reasoning because you do not have to blindly trust the results of eeevil materialists. You can test them for yourself and either find them to be false or true based on the evidence. So your friend didn't reason a thing- he gave himself (and his readers) an excuse to dismiss science based on faith and emotion, not based on solid, reasoned, empirically supported facts.

528 jaunte  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #517 el guape

"The materialist looks to the heavens and argues that the stars are the result of unguided chaos, and he looks to the fields and posits that the cattle too are by-products of chance. And then he looks in a mirror and concludes, what? That he too is nothing more than the result of random chemical reactions?"

Your friend Bubba has invented an imaginary 'materialist' who behaves the way Bubba imagines, has the thoughts Bubba imagines, and reaches the conclusions Bubba imagines. This is the very definition of a straw man, and bears no resemblance to the thinking of people you think of as 'materialists.'

529 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 12:07:34pm

re: #528 jaunte

I loved this part:

If he does that, then there is no reason to trust his arguments about the stars and the cows

Except for the reason of empirically supported data which is testable and falsifiable. No "trust" required.

530 jaunte  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 12:11:32pm

re: #529 Sharmuta

The arguments get pretty twisty when someone is trying to impose absolute philosophical rules based on faulty assumptions.

531 Haverwilde  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 12:25:47pm

re: #525 el guape

Third, to Haver, pointing out that the morality cannot be derived from a materialist world view does not enforce that world view on anyone. I'm sorry if you feel that it does. It's a truth claim and you have not refuted it..... My point is that without God there is no universal morality. This stands up fairly well in academia and on this blog.


You make a claim, declare it as truth, and then say I have not refuted it. That is absurd. It is your 'truth' only because in your worldview it is axiomatic. I can state the opposite and you cannot refute that either, just disagree. If you want to discuss a position support it with data, not conjecture or belief.

Now, this whole discussion is about creationism/evolution. You continue to move the subject into LALA MoralityLand, to avoid dealing with the crux of the problem. You cannot teach religion as science. Okay! Deal with that issue. (Not your belief/religion/worldview/ignorance of some hypothetical Universal Morality which is defined as the production of your god.)

532 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 2:40:56pm

re: #516 el guape

That was a fantastic book. Dostoevsky was quite the psychologist.

Also, check out our +/- score. Someone doesn't like debate. Heh.

Indeed he was, and indeed they do not. I noticed that you've already received 3 down-dings from people who either object to Dostoevsky or to your observation that both our scores are negative. I'm sure the humor is not lost on you!

What surprised me after arguing with leftists who resort to ad hominim attacks when they start losing a debate and run out of things to say, is that I see the same behavior from some people on the right who pride themselves as being logical. So my conclusion brought to mind one of my favorite quotes:

It was only when I lay there on the rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the fIrst stirrings of good. Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not between states nor between social classes nor between political parties, but right through every human heart, through all human hearts. And that is why I turn back to the years of my imprisonment and say, sometimes to the astonishment of those about me, bless you, prison, for having been a part of my life.

-Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

You sound like an interesting person!

Kindest regards,

-sk

533 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 3:20:33pm

re: #532 Spar Kling

Oh for Pete's sake. Yeah, you guys are just like Solzhenitsyn, except nobody's putting you in a gulag and you're actually creationists.

Apart from that, just like Solzhenitsyn.

534 Basho  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 5:24:15pm

re: #525 el guape

My point is that without God there is no universal morality. This stands up fairly well in academia and on this blog.

Unless God is enforcing His morality it is meaningless as well. In the end it will always be men who enforce the rule of law, even supposedly divinely revealed law. That's life. Deal with it.

535 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:06:08pm

re: #532 Spar Kling

People also don't appreciate me calling out Charles for his straw men, which might explain that -3. Such is life, I guess.

Still, LGF is one of my favorite blogs. I also thoroughly enjoy the reasoning on this site, which is where I quoted Bubba from. I'm hazarding a guess that Zacharias's argument about moral law isn't new to you.

For all the fans...sorry that this was off-topic in a creation/evolution thread, but I assumed that God and morality are closely tied with the creation/evolution debate. Sorry. I hate making assumptions.

Juante, welcome to the discussion. You are mistaken about Bubba's quote. A straw man attacks an individual, and taken as a whole that quote attacks a world view. No straw man there. Nice try with the dodge, though.

Sharmuta, yes, Bubba used reason. You are not the sole possessor of that tool. He reasons that if indeed we are all random bags of chemical processes then there is reason to doubt the conclusions of our own minds. Is that testable? Is that based on evidence? No. Of course not. That doesn't require that you discard the statement because you cannot test it. Here's another one of Bubba's ideas:

Can one prove that only empirical evidence is trustworthy? Better yet, can one prove this by using only empirical evidence?

You are correct when you say that my world view is black and white. There are some things I am unsure of and still question. Of course, this doesn't fit with the box several here have placed me in (a fanatic, a maroon etc) but nevertheless as I grow in my understanding of God and His creation these questions are answered. I once was an agnostic but have been moved to being a Christian after several years of following reason and evidence for Jesus.

Haverwilde, ok. Lets move to Creation/Evolution. Build for me a self-replicating machine through unguided processes. It doesn't have to be biological, either. Then have others in a different location observe it to happen to confirm your results. What's that? You haven't done that/can't do that? Oh. I thought this was about empirical testable knowledge that the facts 'prove'.

Charles, I think SK is saying with that Solzhenitsyn quote is adversity is a blessing, and irrationality can come from any side of the creationist/evolutionist spectrum. I don't think he was claiming to be Solzhenitsyn. Merely saying that you can be good or experience good anywhere you find yourself to be, as it is a choice we all make.

536 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:10:40pm

re: #534 Basho

Unless God is enforcing His morality it is meaningless as well. In the end it will always be men who enforce the rule of law, even supposedly divinely revealed law. That's life. Deal with it.

You are quite mistaken here. Morality exists whether it is enforced or not. If a child steals from it's sibling it is wrong even though it might go unobserved by the parent.

Laws given by men change and the definition of universal morality is the concept that it does not change. Are you claiming universal morality does not exist?

537 jaunte  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:50:02pm

re: #535 el guape

"A straw man attacks an individual, and taken as a whole that quote attacks a world view."
You are wrong about this. It's easy to find the definition.

538 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 9:58:33pm

re: #537 jaunte

And by any definition you find, Bubba's point it is not a straw man and you are still attempting to dodge his it.

539 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:02:03pm

re: #535 el guape

You are not the sole possessor of that tool.

I never claimed to be. Talk about a strawman!

540 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:02:04pm

And no, I am not wrong about it. A straw man does indeed attack an individual and not an argument.

541 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:03:28pm

Sharmuta, you claim that I nor Bubba nor our associated worldview are totally without reason, when you mean to say we don't share your reasoning. It's a standard atheist sound bite. Anyone who disagrees with them is without reason.

542 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:05:24pm

Jeez did I manage to butcher grammar there or what?

Sharmuta, you claim that I nor Bubba nor our associated worldview are totally without reason, when you mean to say we don't share your reasoning. I

Wow. What I meant to say was that you claim we ARE totally without reason...I used the word 'nor' very poorly. Very sorry.

543 jaunte  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:07:01pm

re: #540 el guape

And no, I am not wrong about it. A straw man does indeed attack an individual and not an argument.

"The Straw Man is a type of Red Herring because the arguer is attempting to refute his opponent's position, and in the context is required to do so, but instead attacks a position—the "straw man"—not held by his opponent. In a Straw Man argument, the arguer argues to a conclusion that denies the "straw man" he has set up, but misses the target. There may be nothing wrong with the argument presented by the arguer when it is taken out of context, that is, it may be a perfectly good argument against the straw man. It is only because the burden of proof is on the arguer to argue against the opponent's position that a Straw Man fallacy is committed. So, the fallacy is not simply the argument, but the entire situation of the argument occurring in such a context."
[Link: www.fallacyfiles.org...]

Do you know about the first rule of holes?

544 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:11:24pm

re: #540 el guape

And no, I am not wrong about it. A straw man does indeed attack an individual and not an argument.

No. You're thinking ad hominem. Perhaps when jaunte suggests looking up a definition, you should do so. And you're making sweeping assumptions- I'm no atheist. Nor did I say you or bubba were without reason- just his argument.

545 el guape  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 10:24:14pm

Shre: #544 Sharmuta

You're right. Between the late hour last night and the morning traffic rush I have mistaken one for the other. Forgive me.

546 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 18, 2009 11:35:48pm

re: #535 el guape

Charles, I think SK is saying with that Solzhenitsyn quote is
adversity is a blessing, and irrationality can come from any side of
the creationist/evolutionist spectrum. I don't think he was claiming to
be Solzhenitsyn. Merely saying that you can be good or experience good
anywhere you find yourself to be, as it is a choice we all make.

Exactly. And I thought the above explanation would be obvious and unneeded.

-sk

547 Basho  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 6:49:33am

re: #536 el guape

You are quite mistaken here. Morality exists whether it is enforced or not. If a child steals from it's sibling it is wrong even though it might go unobserved by the parent.

Laws given by men change and the definition of universal morality is the concept that it does not change. Are you claiming universal morality does not exist?

Well, I think we live in a world that is too complicated for universal morality. I personally feel that the only rights people have are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, mostly because that maximizes everyone's utility and minimizes conflict. Things like freedom of speech and religion are mechanisms that our founding fathers found useful for protecting those rights, but I understand that other societies and cultures may not agree.

Things like theft are condemned as immoral in most situations, but there are conceivably many scenarios where it is just. Again, it's a complicated world with billions of people interacting with each other. Universal morality is a recipe for disaster.

548 Haverwilde  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 8:48:08am

re: #535 el guape

Haverwilde, ok. Lets move to Creation/Evolution. Build for me a self-replicating machine through unguided processes. It doesn't have to be biological, either. Then have others in a different location observe it to happen to confirm your results. What's that? You haven't done that/can't do that? Oh. I thought this was about empirical testable knowledge that the facts 'prove'.

I don’t need to do any of that. It has already happened. It is called “Life on Earth.’ It is fascinating. I enjoy it so immensely I wish to study it and find the mechanisms of this wonder. I call this study various things: Science/Biology/genetics/evolution.
This study is so important that I want it to continue, in order expand our knowledge, to find the various mysteries and processes involved in this wonder. This study is also so important that I want it taught to my children and grandchildren without the inclusions of lies, preordained outcomes, religious zealotry or well meaning maroons who would destroy the process in the name of religion.

549 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 9:01:51am

re: #535 el guape

The amazing thing about science-denying creationists like you and Spar Kling is the way you pump up your own egos with pronouncements of victory and self-proclaimed brilliance, all the while uttering the most ridiculous drivel.

If nothing else, it's amusing.

550 Basho  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 9:09:42am

re: #535 el guape

Haverwilde, ok. Lets move to Creation/Evolution. Build for me a self-replicating machine through unguided processes. It doesn't have to be biological, either. Then have others in a different location observe it to happen to confirm your results. What's that? You haven't done that/can't do that? Oh. I thought this was about empirical testable knowledge that the facts 'prove'.

It doesn't have to be biological?

Evolution produces better antennae:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

551 Basho  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 9:11:50am

re: #550 Basho

The fascinating thing about the antenna story is that no one had any idea of just what a "better antenna" would look like. In fact, they wound up with something that looks like a paper clip bent into triangles. Let me repeat the key thing here: a bunch of engineers wanted a better antenna. They had no idea what that better antenna would look like. But by throwing it into an evolutionary algorithm, they produced an antenna better than anything designed by a human being.

552 Basho  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 9:14:17am

re: #535 el guape


What's that? You haven't done that/can't do that? Oh. I thought this was about empirical testable knowledge that the facts 'prove'.

Err... now that you know that it is indeed empirical testable knowledge, I will be expecting your post where you admit you were lacking in information and that you now except the reality of evolution.

553 Basho  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 9:15:22am

re: #552 Basho

except = accept

554 Basho  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 9:43:21am

An evolving microchip:
[Link: www.damninteresting.com...]

The plucky chip was utilizing only thirty-seven of its one hundred logic gates, and most of them were arranged in a curious collection of feedback loops. Five individual logic cells were functionally disconnected from the rest– with no pathways that would allow them to influence the output– yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones.

[Emphasis mine]

Who says irreducibly complexity structures can't evolve?

555 Yashmak  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 12:19:02pm

re: #552 Basho

Err... now that you know that it is indeed empirical testable knowledge, I will be expecting your post where you admit you were lacking in information and that you now except the reality of evolution.

I hope you're not holding your breath.

556 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Jan 19, 2009 6:08:19pm

re: #525 el guape

First off, to reply to Jimmah's insult, they are called ad-hominem fallacies because they deviate from attacking one's argument to attacking that person. Akin to debating, say, which color of Shelby is best and then claiming victory by pronouncing your opponent a racist if he/she doesn't like black. They aren't logical and subtract from your argument. Further, you have not demonstrated that

Repeating, it's only a fallacy if used as part of an argument. "You are wrong because you are a maroon" would be an example of ad hominem fallacy; "You are a maroon" on the other hand is simply an insult.

from wikipedia:

An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that an argument is wrong and/or the source is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the source or those sources cited by it rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself.

You continue -

Further, you have not demonstrated that

cultures that do not have a law giving God are just as moral as anyone else

are in fact as moral as anyone else.

Buddhists abhor murder, theft and lying at least as much as Christians or Jews. Jains, it could be argued are more enlightened than any of us in their attitudes toward the sanctity of all life, not just human, and their commitment to non-violence. Additionally, we don't have to look far to find cultures that follow do a law giving God who are morally problematic in the extreme, for example Islam.

So much for your argument that cultures who follow a law giving god are morally superior to those that don't.

And as for me being able to grasp other's world views...I live and work in Abu Dhabi, UAE. My closest friend at work is a Sunni Muslim from Lebanon, etc etc

Which doesn't prove a thing in regard to your ability to grasp other's world views. Your misrepresentation of Dawkins earlier, however, speaks volumes.


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