Change!

This is a black day

Hell froze over

Thank God for the First Amendment.

Perhaps you should read books instead of burning them. /Dr. Henry Jones, Sr.

Blame the messanger...........

then hang him for hate speech

/

This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others.

I agree. It's a double edge sword, and as they say, "those who live by the sword...."

Neither option is one to be praised or lauded about.

Is it time to bring down the curtain yet on Western Civilization?

Unfortunately, cases of free speech sometimes revolve around revolting figures. The Nazi march in Skokie is one such example.

re: #4 ploome hineni

how do we bring pressure to the Netherland government?

Send some Gitmo detainees?

This sort of thing is why I thank God every day for our Constitution, and specifically our first amendment.

re: #5 Lee Coller

Thank God for the First Amendment.

Wait for O to try to reactivate the Fairness Doctrine in 21st Century form.

Charles: "This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others."
Yeah, sorta like Lefties here: freedom of expression for me, but not for thee.
Thank God that the US has the Bill of Rights.

rights can be taken away by our new overlords

re: #14 realwest

Charles: "This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others."
Yeah, sorta like Lefties here: freedom of expression for me, but not for thee.
Thank God that the US has the Bill of Rights.

After listening to 44's press conference, I think that might be the US Bill of strong suggestions.

This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others.

Advocating the banning of a book is not banning a book. If they want to try him for something then it shouldn't be his free speech but perhaps a conspiracy to violate others free speech.

Either way, I call Bullshit! on this one too.

How about the thousands of angry Jihadist and sympathizers who march in the streets of the Netherlands calling for the death of all but them. Where are their trials?

Wilders needs to give up his ridiculous position.

re: #14 realwest

Charles: "This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others."
Yeah, sorta like Lefties here: freedom of expression for me, but not for thee.
Thank God that the US has the Bill of Rights.

Just something childish O wants to put away in favor of something more inclusive of collectivism.

Ban it? Hell, it should be required reading for everyone in America.

Double hell - it should be REQUIRED reading for everyone in the middle east and Indonesia. Perhaps then they will know exactly what they have signed up for.

Islam is not a religion. It is a cult that demands submission. It demands domination and abuse of women. It demands violence towards Jews and non-believers.

Spread the word.

You're correct Charles. One good turn deserves another.
He shot himself in the foot with his own gun!
He should have never mixed freedom of opinion in speech with banning the freedom of reading that same speech. I hope he survives this legal round and changes his tactics.

re: #5 Lee Coller

Thank God for the First Amendment.

Europeans have yet to really understand American style freedom and liberty (Including Geert). It sad to watch.

This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others.

It seems free speech isn't a hallowed right in the Netherlands anyway. No free speech, no freedom.

B-B-B-But they have better healthcare than the US.

/LLL

I'm also having a hard time being sympathetic if he's going to run with neo-fascists and their sympathizers. But I guess that's the price one pays for the company they keep.

I am looking at TV Now showing a whole passle of lefties taking the oath from VP with BHO smirking.. these clowns are going to take over? Look at them all fusty college types not one would make it through a winter up here!

re: #15 faraway
Not without our consent - need a constitutional amendment to do that and IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Banning of the Koran aside, this type of hate speech prosecution is dangerous. I expect the current Obama Administration to pursue this as a way to not only stifle Conservative Talk radio but also to silence the Loyal Opposition.

Is that crazy? Maybe.

re: #15 faraway

rights can be taken away by our new overlords

Only the annointed can speak the Middle Name.

Well, when the book that Wilders wants to ban is chock full o'doctrine that instructs it's adheants to kill, conquer, and subjugate benefactors of Western civilization (i.e., People of the Book, pagans, unbelievers of/in Allah, and so forth) due to the fact that Western ideals don't congeal or jive with it's own facsist sentiments, well, then, I think Wilders has got something right. My hope is that this gets major news coverage so that the veil of denial that the impact Sharia is/can/will have on the west is exposed. I also will be praying for Geert Wilders' safety and eventual exemption from this rediculous charge!

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Europeans have yet to really understand American style freedom and liberty (Including Geert). It sad to watch.

It is crap like this that inspired the Founding Fathers to draft what became the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Gee, I guess that was my last Heineken.

I am reading ATLAS and Pam and she has a lot of pictures of her and that dutch guy so probably they have something going on.

re: #14 realwest

Yeah, sorta like Lefties here: freedom of expression for me, but not for thee.
Thank God that the US has the Bill of Rights.

I agree with you RW. Just try to place a bumpersticker on your car that says "Dissent is Patriotic". See how fast it gets ripped off now.

re: #13 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wait for O to try to reactivate the Fairness Doctrine in 21st Century form.

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Europeans have yet to really understand American style freedom and liberty (Including Geert). It sad to watch.

I think a lot of Americans don't realize how unique our First and Second Amendments are!

If it is free speech for one man to quote the Koran , then its free speech for another man to wipe his ass with it.

re: #25 Sharmuta
Well I certainly agree with you about the company he has CHOSEN to keep, but don't think that factors in here at all.
Charles has it right: you really can't say freedom of speech for me but not for thee and be expected to be well received.

re: #35 Lee Coller

I think a lot of Americans don't realize how unique our First and Second Amendments are!

I see too many that do and want to trash them anyway.

re: #5 Lee Coller

Thank God for the First Amendment.

We'll see if that survives the remaking of America.

Desperate times induce desperate measures;
sure it's not according to American values of free speech and I doubt that Wilders' call for outlawing the Koran will ever be implemented by any of the European Governments, but he raises the issue of what the Koran is really about, and for that I salute him.
Europe, btw doesn't have a history of free speech and is quite known for it's measures to oppress ideas.........

re: #8 Sharmuta

It is a tricky situation, but it reminds me of the (somewhat reasonable) ban on swastikas in Germany. Europe has a much longer and bloodier history than the U.S, and much of that bloodshed was the direct result of simple words written on a sheet of paper.
I hope that the U.S. never takes "Hate Crimes" legislation so far that we have to deal with similar trials.

re: #30 Born_to_lose

Well, when the book that Wilders wants to ban is chock full o'doctrine that instructs it's adheants to kill, conquer, and subjugate benefactors of Western civilization (i.e., People of the Book, pagans, unbelievers of/in Allah, and so forth) due to the fact that Western ideals don't congeal or jive with it's own facsist sentiments, well, then, I think Wilders has got something right. My hope is that this gets major news coverage so that the veil of denial that the impact Sharia is/can/will have on the west is exposed. I also will be praying for Geert Wilders' safety and eventual exemption from this rediculous charge!

There is nothing right about banning a book. You have no leg to stand on with that.

There's no such thing as an unambiguous situation in Europe, is there?

re: #17 CommonCents

Advocating the banning of a book is not banning a book. If they want to try him for something then it shouldn't be his free speech but perhaps a conspiracy to violate others free speech.

But is agenda to ban the Quran and make Islam illegal is reprehensible. The laws used to prosecute him for free speech are equally awful. He would have a much better moral standing and would be a much better advocate for freedom of speech if he also advocated freedom for others.

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

Perhaps Wilders is looking so that his trial will force a reading of some of the passages of the Koran in court, to 'prove' his case...

re: #32 brookly red

Gee, I guess that was my last Heineken.

Try quinness.

re: #36 maddogg

If it is free speech for one man to quote the Koran , then its free speech for another man to wipe his ass with it.

You really don't understand the illogic of Leftism and Mulit-Culturalism if you think fair applies to both.

re: #4 ploome hineni

I will no longer buy Dutch Porn.

wonder if he gets to introduce all the chapters and verses in the Koran and give examples of how they have been used to rationalize the "hate speech" and "hate actions" of the Islamic community in his defense case? Expose each chapter and verse to public scrutiny.

re: #46 tfc3rid

Examples read aloud?

re: #28 tfc3rid
Well see that's the problem a lot of Democracies have. IIRC, the U.S. is the ONLY democracy that has a constitutional right of freedom of speech.

re: #25 Sharmuta

I'm also having a hard time being sympathetic if he's going to run with neo-fascists and their sympathizers. But I guess that's the price one pays for the company they keep.

where two fools met...as Charley would say

Citing facts is felonious?

I suppose they are going to round up all the imams who read from that book too, right?

re: #4 ploome hineni

how do we bring pressure to the Netherland government?

Challenge them in soccer.

re: #33 mcainiac

I am reading ATLAS and Pam and she has a lot of pictures of her and that dutch guy so probably they have something going on.

Time for the eye bleach. Are you a masochist?

This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others.

Do you think Wilders was serious when he called for banning the Koran (because it contains hate speech), or was he just trying to be ironic, turning hate speech laws on their heads?

If he was trying to be ironic, then the Dutch Government just saw his irony and doubled it by charging him with a hate speech crime for pointing out the hate speech contained in the koran.

re: #31 FurryOldGuyJeans

It is crap like this that inspired the Founding Fathers to draft what became the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

There are plenty of books that were banned in the US well after the adoption of the constitution.

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

There is nothing right about banning a book. You have no leg to stand on with that.

My wife has a copy of Little Black Sambo on the bookshelf. She brought it home from school, because the school system banned it.

re: #47 notutopia

Try quinness.

It appears that you already have today. LOL
/

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

(don't know if it is also banned in the Netherlands)

Looks like it is (from Charles's link):

A year earlier, Mr Wilders described the Koran as a "fascist book" and called for it to be banned in "the same way we ban Mein Kampf", in a letter published in the De Volkskrant newspaper.

re: #52 formercorpsman

Examples read aloud?

Perhaps? I could see it...

re: #53 realwest

Well see that's the problem a lot of Democracies have. IIRC, the U.S. is the ONLY democracy that has a constitutional right of freedom of speech.

Thank God we do!

Is Mein Kampf available in Germany? We in the U.S. are a bit naive in that we've never really had speech enable such extremes as Nazi Germany. We ban child porn don't we?

re: #49 FurryOldGuyJeans

You really don't understand the illogic of Leftism and Mulit-Culturalism if you think fair applies to both.

If I actually start to understand the illogic of leftism, I'll do the world a favor rid it of my useless presence.

re: #34 Racer X
Yeah, but it won't be ripped off by the Government - and yes that is a BIG difference.

re: #48 buzzsawmonkey

The First Amendment may well survive, on paper--but between hate-speech laws and the prissy propriety of PC it may well do so as a hollow shell.

same with the 2nd....and it will turn into ALOT of hollow shells

re: #59 keyword

There are plenty of books that were banned in the US well after the adoption of the constitution.

Never said it was a guarantee of perfection, you know.

re: #60 jwb7605

My wife has a copy of Little Black Sambo on the bookshelf. She brought it home from school, because the school system banned it.

or Tom Sawyer?

re: #60 jwb7605

My wife has a copy of Little Black Sambo on the bookshelf. She brought it home from school, because the school system banned it.

Removing a book from a school is different than making it a criminal offense to read a certain book. We don't allow porn in schools either. Big difference.

re: #59 keyword

There are plenty of books that were banned in the US well after the adoption of the constitution.

Name one that is banned today.

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

It appears that you already have today. LOL
/

Typo? loL.
/

This is why all hate speech laws are wrong. They attempt to criminalize thought, and worse, the determining of what is "unnacceptable thought" is entirely capricious and can be changed and applied retroactively at any time.

Nonetheless, "Hate Crimes Legislation" is at the top of Obambi's list. This circus of freaks will not be relegated to our college campuses for long.

re: #60 jwb7605

My wife has a copy of Little Black Sambo on the bookshelf. She brought it home from school, because the school system banned it.

Sadly, the public school system has been removed from the arena of public discourse most of us enjoy as citizens.

re: #30 Born_to_lose

Think about what is entailed in the banning of the Quran. Are police going to raid homes and arrest people? Will reciting a prayer land people in court? Will people have to worship in basements and hope their neighbors don't call the police? It's a nightmare scenario.

re: #68 albusteve

same with the 2nd....and it will turn into ALOT of hollow shells

Remove the protections of the 2nd amendment and the rest of the Constitution becomes invalid.

“In a democratic system, hate speech is considered so serious that it is in the general interest to... draw a clear line,” the court in Amsterdam said.

In a system where the people rule, it is important for The State to limit what the people can say.

/

re: #65 SFGoth

Is Mein Kampf available in Germany? We in the U.S. are a bit naive in that we've never really had speech enable such extremes as Nazi Germany. We ban child porn don't we?

It's not the same. Child pornography involves the sexual violation of minors.

re: #38 realwest

And I already agreed with Charles on that. I'm being honest- if he wants to hang with VB, pamela and robert then my sympathy meter is waning. On principle, he's a hypocrite. I like neither hypocrites nor fascists and their sympathizers.

re: #65 SFGoth

Is Mein Kampf available in Germany? We in the U.S. are a bit naive in that we've never really had speech enable such extremes as Nazi Germany. We ban child porn don't we?

Nope, it's not, and for good reasons, I'd say.
Germany has the toughest laws against any type of Nazi propaganda, and fairly I don't think they have much of a choice in the matter.

we shouldn't be surprised that people in Europe are calling for such things as book-bannings. After all, their own governments has often no concept of TRUE free speech, they ban books, free speech and expression themselves every day with their "hate speech" laws.

I love the American liberty ideals, and looking back on my life as a European, I now feel as if I was blinded, muted and deafened there.

Someone else said it best: I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with my life. That's what America is all about.

I don't know
he is saying we don't need a book that does the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater (mosque)

tough call
especially because not all who read the Koran are incited to violent acts

re: #59 keyword

There are plenty of books that were banned in the US well after the adoption of the constitution.

As far as I know all were banned for being "obscene" (Tropic of Cancer, Naked Lunch etc), not for hate speech or for political reasons.

re: #41 2by2
"Europe, btw doesn't have a history of free speech and is quite known for it's measures to oppress ideas........."
Spot on. With the (ironic) exception of Germany and the Hitler/Nazi's.

Librarians "select" books that contain kiddie sex and other liberal themes. Then, when they are confronted, you are charged with "banning" books.

So, I would like to know more before I charge someone with book banning.

re: #65 SFGoth

Is Mein Kampf available in Germany? We in the U.S. are a bit naive in that we've never really had speech enable such extremes as Nazi Germany. We ban child porn don't we?

Because the production of it harms children. We'd stop someone from inking a press with human blood, too.

re: #72 MandyManners

I did use past tense in the verb :)

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

I don't support Wilders' suggestion that the Koran be banned. However, within the context of the hate-speech laws in the Netherlands, he may be doing so for a calculated purpose; to communicate the nature of the hate-speech in the Koran and thereby make the Dutch, and Europeans generally, aware of the fascistic nature of Islamism.

Drawing a parallel between the Koran and Hitler's Mein Kampf, which is banned in Germany (don't know if it is also banned in the Netherlands) is the strongest and most direct way he can do this, given the apparent level of "hate-speech" restrictions in Europe.

I think banning books is a terrible idea, and I hope that Wilders is, indeed, using the analogy as a teaching tool rather than seriously seeking to ban the Koran; that is, I hope he is grandstanding in order to break through the shell of willful blindness in his own society.

Leaving aside for the moment the company he now keeps - what you say chimes in with how I understood FITNA.
There, he did not say 'ban the Qur'an' - he asked why such a concoction of vileness cannot be banned.
Very small but important difference.
I hope this really was a ploy by him - far to few people know what the Qur'an really says. Far too many people listen to the 'moderate' muslims who tell us its all peaceful, and if you start asking questions, the answer is, infallibly, that not being an arab and muslim scholar, one cannot possibly understand, nor should one dare to read that 'Holy' book by oneself.

re: #58 Ringo the Gringo

Do you think Wilders was serious when he called for banning the Koran (because it contains hate speech), or was he just trying to be ironic, turning hate speech laws on their heads?

No - he's quite serious about it.

re: #80 MandyManners

It's not the same. Child pornography involves the sexual violation of minors.

So? What does content have to do with it? The Koran involves the destruction of Western civilization so that pedophiles will inherit the Earth -- that doesn't involve the sexual violation of minors? What other extrinsic ends justify the banning of other printed matter and who decides what ends are more equal than others?

re: #60 jwb7605

My wife has a copy of Little Black Sambo on the bookshelf. She brought it home from school, because the school system banned it.

That was one of my favorite books as a child. I kept my copy and read it to my own kids. Do the book banners notice that a) Sambo is Indian, not African, and b) Sambo outsmarts the tigers? Sambo is a classic trickster character, but I guess you can't expect librarians and educators to know anything about mythology and literature.

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Europeans have yet to really understand American style freedom and liberty (Including Geert). It sad to watch.

I remember talking to Eastern Europeans not long after the demise of communism there. They would talk about America being a free country and had all sorts of bizarre ideas about what that meant: generally bordering on anarchy and avoidance of all personal responsibility.

re: #70 Outrider

or Tom Sawyer?

I think that's gone, too.
re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Removing a book from a school is different than making it a criminal offense to read a certain book. We don't allow porn in schools either. Big difference.

Banning a book is a judgmental thing.
A large percentage of schools don't allow the Bible, either, so the whole thing is a double-edged decision. (NO Walter, I'm not advocating child porn, either).

re: #92 SFGoth

It's not the content, it's the act of production that is a crime. Simulated child pron is legal. (spit.)

re: #86 realwest

"Europe, btw doesn't have a history of free speech and is quite known for it's measures to oppress ideas........."
Spot on. With the (ironic) exception of Germany and the Hitler/Nazi's.

Well, in Nazi Germany only Hitler and his thugs had the right of free expression, everyone else who insisted on speaking out was shipped off to a Concentration Camp...

as i recall, there wasn't anything in the movie that wasn't true.
quotes taken directly from the koran are the reason he is being persecuted.

wilders is exposing the vile ideas , which inspire islamic jihad and the authorities would rather attack him than face the evil growing in their society.
this is so misguided. so counterproductive. so cowardly.

re: #94 jorline

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

because you never see America raise the price of food and medicine when the price of oil rises because of OPEC

we are afraid of political correctness
though I could say worse

"This is a happy day for all followers of Islam who do not want to be tossed on the garbage dump of Nazism," he [Gerard Spong] told reporters.

But what about the followers who do want to be tossed there?

re: #91 Charles

No - he's quite serious about it.

Interesting. So he's being charged with a hate speech crime for calling for the banning of what he considers to be hate speech.

Orwell must be spinning in his grave.

re: #10 MJ

Unfortunately, cases of free speech sometimes revolve around revolting figures. The Nazi march in Skokie is one such example.

And the klan marches. There was one a few years ago about an hour from here.

People drove over to stand along the parade route and protest, but I thought that was the wrong tactic. It would have been better if the klan had marched down a completely empty street, ignored and irrelevant.

Or if they felt they must go, everyone on the sidewalks pretend to read newspapers with their backs to the street, all along the route.

re: #59 keyword

There are plenty of books that were banned in the US well after the adoption of the constitution.

Name me one book that was banned by the federal government?

re: #94 jorline

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

I up-dinged you, but to be honest. There's a radio station in Sweden, Radio Islam, that constantly used to be slapped with hate speech judgements because of it's frequent and fervent jew-hatred.

re: #94 jorline

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

if it were up to Geert and the VB there would be no Muslims at all in Holland...he's hard friggin core this guy

re: #85 Ringo the Gringo
OTOH, one person's "obscenity" is anothers "art" no?
I mean, the SCOTUS has not served us well in terms of defining the limits of free speech, but at least it does prohibit PRIOR censorship - you get to publish before you can be sued or prosecuted.

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks.

All the more reason to suspect that Wilders' call to "ban the Koran" is intended as a means to awaken a supine citizenry to the danger within its midst, rather than a serious call for censorship.

I don't think so. There are more effective ways to highlight the double standard, and I'm not sure I've read anything or heard him in any interviews describing euro-hate speech laws and the koran as a double standard issue.

re: #65 SFGoth

We in the U.S. are a bit naive in that we've never really had speech enable such extremes as Nazi Germany. We ban child porn don't we?

I can't.

Believe.

You went there.

Can you not see that child pornography is a crime of sexual assault? And that every time the photos are distributed, the victim is violated again? In other words, it's an ongoing, sometimes never-ending sexual assault.

To even bring it up in a "free speech" discussion is like shitting in the punchbowl. You just want the party to end, apparently.

Hmmmmm, maybe the could just edit out the parts that promote violence./
that seems fair, no?

re: #97 FightingBack

It's not the content, it's the act of production that is a crime. Simulated child pron is legal. (spit.)

Saw that on a Law and Order SVU earlier this season...

re: #92 SFGoth

So? What does content have to do with it? The Koran involves the destruction of Western civilization so that pedophiles will inherit the Earth -- that doesn't involve the sexual violation of minors? What other extrinsic ends justify the banning of other printed matter and who decides what ends are more equal than others?

What in the world? That's just plain nuts. Don't you understand what rape does to a small child?

re: #50 Ay, Caramba

I will no longer buy Dutch Porn.

You pay?

Geert's proposal.....
Dutch MP Wilders strikes again: calls for ban on Quran

The leader of the Netherlands’ right-wing Freedom Party, Geert Wilders, has called for a ban on the sale and distribution of the Qur’an. He would also outlaw the book’s use in the mosque and at home. Mr Wilders says the Qur’an (Koran) is a fascist book which promotes violence and is similar to Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf.

In a letter-to-the-editor in today’s de Volkskrant newspaper, Wilders argues that the Qur’an should only be permitted for research at an academic level.
....
Geert Wilders compares the Qur’an with Mein Kampf, which was written by Adolf Hitler in 1924. In his book, Hitler explained his theories about National Socialism, anti-Semitism and the superiority of the Aryan race.

The sale of Mein Kampf is outlawed in the Netherlands, but owning or trading old copies is permitted. However, Mr Wilders’ proposal to ban the Qur’an is more drastic than the ban on Mein Kampf because it would also outlaw the possession of the book.

re: #89 keyword

I did use past tense in the verb :)

Then name one of the "past" books that were banned by the federal government.

You don't get out of it that easy.

re: #88 FightingBack

Because the production of it harms children. We'd stop someone from inking a press with human blood, too.

Mein Kampf is now public domain?

re: #94 jorline

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

For the same reason you never see black activists prosecuted for inciting violence.

FEAR.

re: #96 jwb7605

Banning a book is a judgmental thing.
A large percentage of schools don't allow the Bible, either, so the whole thing is a double-edged decision. (NO Walter, I'm not advocating child porn, either).

The Bible is banned? What?

Funny, spell check still highlight the word 'Obama'.

The Lords of Spell Check are going to have to fix that one now that the coronation is over.

Charles, you go right to the heart of the cognitive dissonance in the words and actions of the Right in Europe. This is just another flavor of "free speech for me but not for thee" doctrines we see in other parties. Geert's call to ban the Koran is over the top political hyperbole, outlawing scarves is attacking a symptom not the essential problem.

His argument is that since Main Kampf is banned in Holland, the Koran could be, too. Wrong, yes. Rational?

re: #108 Sharmuta

I don't think so. There are more effective ways to highlight the double standard, and I'm not sure I've read anything or heard him in any interviews describing euro-hate speech laws and the koran as a double standard issue.

what's the name of the VB document that lay's it all out....some people might loke to surf that for a better feel for his Geertness....the man is despicable

re: #116 Dustyvet

Mein Kampf is now public domain?

I don't think the "Hitler Estate" is collecting royalties.

re: #70 Outrider

or Tom Sawyer?

Teacher wants to expel Huck Finn

"The time has arrived to update the literature we use in high school classrooms," Foley wrote in a guest column this month for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. "Barack Obama is president-elect of the United States, and novels that use the 'N-word' repeatedly need to go."

Foley, 48, teaches at a largely white suburban high school near Portland, Ore. Year after year, he said, he patiently explains to his students that Jim, a black man, is actually the hero of the novel, and that Huck comes to see the error of his ways and commits to helping Jim escape slavery. But many of them find the book dull and plodding, and they sometimes never get past the demeaning word Huck uses to refer to his friend.

re: #76 Killgore Trout

So is the idea of losing my freedoms here in the good ol US OF A.

List of banned books

re: #124 Lizard by the Bay

I don't think the "Hitler Estate" is collecting royalties.

Just did a web search and found it listed as public domain.

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

I don't think there were ever any Federal bans (though the Anarchist's Cookbook was once seriously considered a threat and some Congressmen wanted it banned), but books and films were regularly "Banned in Boston" up until about the 60's.

again.....Europe has become Weak and Weird and I want little to do with them as possible. and now Obama is going to import that level of stupidity here....*sigh*

re: #83 so.cal.swede

we shouldn't be surprised that people in Europe are calling for such things as book-bannings. After all, their own governments has often no concept of TRUE free speech, they ban books, free speech and expression themselves every day with their "hate speech" laws.

I love the American liberty ideals, and looking back on my life as a European, I now feel as if I was blinded, muted and deafened there.

Someone else said it best: I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it with my life. That's what America is all about.

That 'someone else', btw was Voltaire - a Frenchman.

Please don't forget that the founding Fathers were educated Europeans before they became Americans - and that they did take a lot of the best thoughts and philosophies europe had to offer when they built your great country.

re: #119 Ringo the Gringo

Funny, spell check still highlight the word 'Obama'.

The Lords of Spell Check are going to have to fix that one now that the coronation is over.

You typed 'Obama'. Did you mean to type 'The Chosen One'?
- Spellchecker

Censoring the Koran is not an answer.

Offering a point by point rebuttal on why it is wrong and why it should not be followed or why it leads to terrorism is not hate speech.

re: #122 keyword

His argument is that since Main Kampf is banned in Holland, the Koran could be, too. Wrong, yes. Rational?

Both Mandy and myself have an open question to you, which you seem to be ignoring.

Which books, in the past, have been banned by the federal government?

re: #97 FightingBack

It's not the content, it's the act of production that is a crime. Simulated child pron is legal. (spit.)

No, people have been prosecuted for child porn for drawing images they imagined. The end justifies the means w/child porn but not the subversion of Western civilization.

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

See my #114

I don't think he's being ironic, He knows it will never pass but he does seem serious about it. There were even reports that he mentioned his proposal at the latest counter0jihad summit in Jerusalem, it widely cheered.

re: #93 doppelganglander

That was one of my favorite books as a child. I kept my copy and read it to my own kids. Do the book banners notice that a) Sambo is Indian, not African, and b) Sambo outsmarts the tigers? Sambo is a classic trickster character, but I guess you can't expect librarians and educators to know anything about mythology and literature.

I have a whole collection of this books releases.
It was not the original story that was the problem. It was the later renditions printed with Westernized pictures that earned it's banning from the school system library.
[Link: www.ferris.edu...]

Well, this was a good day for my copy of An American Carol to come in at the library (would love to buy a copy, but kids shoes and milk come first).

re: #119 Ringo the Gringo

Funny, spell check still highlight the word 'Obama'.

I guess it's time to add that to the dictionary.

re: #91 Charles

No, actually, he's quite the showman, according to some schools of thought. I am sure this was an attempt to generate some publicity towards his cause. But either way, I agree with the sentiment ;o)

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

The Little Black Sambo book I had as a kid depicted Sambo as African, more or less--though his clothes, come to think of it, were Indian/Persian, and tigers of course are not native to Africa.

But things like that mean nothing to the PC brigade. Dr. Doolittle too has been bowdlerized, if not banned entirely, because his depiction of a (sympathetic) African king is considered a negative sterotype.

I shouldn't be surprised. I am thoroughly convinced that most people who want to ban "Huckleberry Finn" have never read it. If they had, they'd know that Jim is an intelligent, wise, and sympathetic character.

/English major

re: #94 jorline

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

Excellent question!

Perhaps because they're 'victims' and can't help themselves?
Also - its their culture - and 'we must try and understand'?

re: #125 bulwrk

Then they shouldn't teach the history of slavery. That's

dull and plodding

too.

equating Islam with violence

He's guilty. I'm guilty. Every thinking person is guilty.

Now truth is a crime.

re: #115 Walter L. Newton

Then name one of the "past" books that were banned by the federal government.

You don't get out of it that easy.

I didn't say Federal government.

re: #127 faraway
Kindly note, from your link: "Banned in the USA in 1821 for obscenity, then again in 1963. This was the last book ever banned in the USA.[3] "
emphasis added realwest.

re: #131 yma o hyd

That 'someone else', btw was Voltaire - a Frenchman.

Please don't forget that the founding Fathers were educated Europeans before they became Americans - and that they did take a lot of the best thoughts and philosophies europe had to offer when they built your great country.

Right, and what was Voltaire? The biggest critic of the European civilization of his time, ranking among the top critics of all time. He knew what was up, as did the founders of America, that's why they left in the first place.

You completely misunderstood me, I didn't say "all europeans are bad people" i said "We shouldn't be surprised that europeans call for book bannings, because their governments ban books every day".

Messiah is the preferred spelling for Obama

re: #125 bulwrk

Huck comes to see the error of his ways and commits to helping Jim escape slavery. But many of them find the book dull and plodding, and they sometimes never get past the demeaning word Huck uses to refer to his friend.

Huck learned about and repented from evil, but continued to use the word because it was the only one he knew.

re: #133 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Censoring the Koran is not an answer.

In fact, the wider it is distributed, the better. Makes taqiyya much more difficult. I think a special annotated version should be published, so that people can be pointed right to the most bloodthirsty parts, read about abrogation, and come to truly understand what Islam is really about.

It would be pretty stupid to ban the one thing which proves the real purpose of Jihad and "being a good Muslim".

re: #129 Lincolntf

I don't think there were ever any Federal bans (though the Anarchist's Cookbook was once seriously considered a threat and some Congressmen wanted it banned), but books and films were regularly "Banned in Boston" up until about the 60's.

That was do to the influence of the Catholic Church and a local issue. My question is show me a book that the federal government has banned?

re: #148 faraway

Messiah is the preferred spelling for Obama

Genuflect when you say that pal! (Name the source of that quote)

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Name me one book that was banned by the federal government?

Book banning
[Link: www.answers.com...]

Eurabia, Canuckistan.... Pakistan. :-P

re: #93 doppelganglander

That was one of my favorite books as a child. I kept my copy and read it to my own kids. Do the book banners notice that a) Sambo is Indian, not African, and b) Sambo outsmarts the tigers? Sambo is a classic trickster character, but I guess you can't expect librarians and educators to know anything about mythology and literature.

That book (Sambo) fell victim to the widely held perception of, rather than the actual, content, as did the restaurants.

Isn't Geert's problem with Koran that it insights violence and that is why he called for it to be banned? Is that a valid reason to call for that? I don't know if that is treated in the same way as say, a public speaker. Even if that is his objection, I have to stand on the side that says you do not ban books.

This all goes back to the European inability to have a balanced, open debate on controversial issues. "Hate speech" laws will always be used to curtail free speech rights - there is no avoiding it regardless of the otherwise good intentions of those who advocate "hate speech" bans.

The lack of a center in European politics and media is due to the suffocation of expression of conservative viewpoints. This will continue there.

but we will now see the same tested here - ironic that Tom Hanks can declare Mormons unpatriotic for supporting prop 8 in California after the same contingent has screamed "don't question my patriotism" for 7 years. This contingent now has total power and will use it, in part, to suppress conservative viewpoints much like Europe.

Sadly, the result will not be a moderate, informed society - Europe has already demonstrated that "hate speech" laws simply engender extremism and tear at the social fabric that free expression creates.

I don't like the hate-speech laws in europe. What they are doing to Mr. Wilders is wrong.

But his proposed "solutions" are just as wrong.

Thank God my ancestors left that continent. God Bless America.

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

Both Mandy and myself have an open question to you, which you seem to be ignoring.

Which books, in the past, have been banned by the federal government?

Check faraway's link.

Fanny Hill or Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure -- Banned in the USA in 1821 for obscenity, then again in 1963. This was the last book ever banned in the USA.[3] See also Memoirs v. Massachusetts.

There are several others. (Lady Chatterly's Lover).

Release the gitmo detainees into Hollywood.

The Court ruled in Board of Education Island Trees Union Free School District v. Pico that books may not be removed if the decision to do so is motivated by disapproval of the viewpoint expressed in the book.

Would that have been a liberal court?

re: #139 Charles

I guess it's time to add that to the dictionary.

Can you put a nifty trick in that changes "Obama" to "The One"?

Or would that be too much?

The Koran For Dummies

ordering a copy...:)

.. although i'd rather have 1000 books banned for sexuality than 1 for political opinion.

Charles says:

Wilders, however, has called for the Koran to be outlawed. In other words, Wilders wants to ban books with which he doesn’t agree. If there’s one thing we should have learned from history, it’s that book-banning never turns out well—and it’s anathema to the American ideals of free speech and free choice of religion.

This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others.

Remember, however, that American and European societies do in fact ban books, right now -- books with which the majority of people strongly disagree.

Child pornography, for example, is banned in America. Just try publishing a child porn book and see how long it remained unbanned and you remain unjailed.

Book that contained unnverified slander are essentially banned. Just try publishing a book that says outrageous and unprovable claims about an innocent person -- "Mr. XYZ is a serial killer, and he murdered his first wife" -- and see how long that book remains on the shelves and you find yourself un-sued.

Books that seriously compromise national security are also in effect banned: just try stealing the blueprints for our nuclear warheads and publishing them in book form. The FBI would be knocking on your door in about 90 seconds.

Etc. etc.

(And in Europe, Nazi imagery is banned from being published [except as a "scholarly work"].)

So, yes, while we like to claim we have completely unfettered free speech in American society, in truth we de facto ban books all the time.

It all comes down to "community standards" -- we as a nationwide community agreed that child porn and nuclear weapons diagrams and ruinous slander were simply unacceptable and thus were banned.

But if those standards change, or if a mass consensus arrives that certain ideas/images/books are unacceptable, then, yes, those can be banned as well, and not violate our principles of free speech any more than our current bannings do.

Geert Wilders was floating the idea that, in the Netherlands, the Koran be considered for inclusion among those works which the community at large deem unacceptable. Perhaps the Quran does in fact contain child porn (advocating sex with underage girls), slanders people unfairly (Jews), and endangers national security (by advocating a transnational allegiance to a different undemocratic worldview). And if, in most Dutch people's opinions, it contains enough hate and noxious ideologies that it does indeed merit inclusion among other previously banned works, then so be it. I don't think that makes Wilders an out-of-control "book banner." It is, after all, up for the entire nation to decide. He just raised the possibility. If one doesn't like that possibility, then don't agree to the banning, and don't vote for Wilders.

But to imprison someone just for raising the option of slightly changing the parameters of what counts as ban-worthy -- that is outrageous, in my book.

re: #125 bulwrk

"Sure the book is about how racism is wrong, but frankly, we haven't educated the kids very well so they are all too stupid to get that. Clearly the solution is banning the book. What? Educate the children? Now, that's just crazy talk."

re: #151 Walter L. Newton

That was do to the influence of the Catholic Church and a local issue. My question is show me a book that the federal government has banned?

Well they should have banned 'I'm OK..Your OK' Just on General principles

re: #155 CyanSnowHawk

I have to stand on the side that says you do not ban books.

Not in the USA, anyway.

re: #145 keyword Uh, the Bill of Rights was made applicable to all State Governments as well under the 14th Amendment.

re: #132 so.cal.swede

You typed 'Obama'. Did you mean to type 'The Chosen One'?
- Spellchecker

I just use God.

re: #163 so.cal.swede

.. although i'd rather have 1000 books banned for sexuality than 1 for political opinion.

I'd rather have 1 blocked for political opinion because that one would be the Koran. Problem solved.

re: #164 zombie

upding.

re: #145 keyword

I didn't say Federal government.

Banned indicates that printing the book would be against the law. Ok, tell me about ANY book that was banned from being published, printed, distributed or other wise.

There has been book that have been deemed not proper in certain situations, such as public libraries or schools, but you cannot equate having a book removed from a certain venue anywhere near the same as what Gert is proposing.

He is proposing that printing or owning a Quran is the same as printing or publishing or owning Mien Kaumpt.

re: #94 jorline

Why is it I never see Muslims prosecuted for hate speech?

Prosecuting a Muslim for hate speech will lead to a countersuit claiming religous persecution.

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

Banned book in the United States -- Tropic of Cancer, Miller. See list of other banned books here...

re: #133 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Censoring the Koran is not an answer.

Offering a point by point rebuttal on why it is wrong and why it should not be followed or why it leads to terrorism is not hate speech.

It is if you are a muslim!

No-one who is not an Arab scholar, trained in madrassahs and having studied in the Magic Kingdom is allowed to think and talk about the Qur'an - and translations, btw, are haram as well!

re: #14 realwest

Charles: "This prosecution is disgusting and wrong, but it’s difficult to cast Wilders as an icon of free speech when he explicitly advocates taking away the rights of others."
Yeah, sorta like Lefties here: freedom of expression for me, but not for thee.
Thank God that the US has the Bill of Rights.

For the moment probably

re: #157 Sharmuta

I don't like the hate-speech laws in europe. What they are doing to Mr. Wilders is wrong.

But his proposed "solutions" are just as wrong.

Thank God my ancestors left that continent. God Bless America.

That continent is becoming incontinent........
/

Outta here for lunch! Hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

re: #166 HoosierHoops

Well they should have banned 'I'm OK..Your OK' Just on General principles

and anything written by Jimmy Carter for the same reasons!.....

just kidding

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Prosecuting a Muslim for hate speech will lead to a countersuit claiming religous persecution.

...or in a public beheading?
/

re: #170 SFGoth

I'd rather have 1 blocked for political opinion because that one would be the Koran. Problem solved.

Heey.. just like in that one movie with pouty-lips McGee.

re: #156 karmic_inquisitor

This all goes back to the European inability to have a balanced, open debate on controversial issues.

Or it may be that Europeans are just scared to death of the Muslims in their midst and are prepared to sacrifice individuals to the volcano that can erupt at any moment.

Stupid question here, maybe:

Does refusing to have one of your books reprinted count as banning?

I'm specifically thinking of Winter Soldier, by John Kerry.
You simply could not get a copy of that as of the 2004 election.
Kerry campaign purchased all known remaining copies.

re: #172 Walter L. Newton

He is proposing that printing or owning a Quran is the same as printing or publishing or owning Mien Kaumpt.

Why ban Mein Kaumpt? We just "distributed" Prairie Fire right here on LGF.

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, ask Mark Steyn what happens if you even quote them.

Either Wilders is a zealot who really wants to "burn books" (in this case the Koran) or he is a cynical politician who doesn't really believe what he says.

Either way, it's not a pretty picture.

And my understanding is that Wilders isn't in the same anti-semitic boat as Vlaams Belang, the BNP, the French National Front, etc. Is this correct?

re: #177 LGoPs

I always enjoy when my typos get pointed out.

re: #184 faraway

Why ban Mein Kaumpt? We just "distributed" Prairie Fire right here on LGF.

Oops, that was my fault. Sorry!

re: #153 notutopia

Book banning
[Link: www.answers.com...]

"Book Banning has existed in America since colonial times, when legislatures and royal governors enacted laws against blasphemy and seditious libel. Legislatures in the early American republic passed laws against obscenity. "

Colonial, royal governors, obscenity laws, all pre-constitution or local community standards.

I want to know the name of a book that has been made illegal to publish, own, read etc, by our federal government.

I'm not suggest that there isn't one, I just can't find it.

re: #153 notutopia

Book banning
[Link: www.answers.com...]

When the banned Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape" I immediately went out and bought two copies. Bans are counterproductive, especially in this day and age where information knows few bounds due to the internet and compact data sources.

re: #183 jwb7605

Stupid question here, maybe:

Does refusing to have one of your books reprinted count as banning?

I'm specifically thinking of Winter Soldier, by John Kerry.
You simply could not get a copy of that as of the 2004 election.
Kerry campaign purchased all known remaining copies.

I had one, it got shredded six times by and three by the cat...:)

re: #150 Lizard by the Bay

THAT is a very interesting perspective.

re: #174 J.S.

Banned book in the United States -- Tropic of Cancer, Miller. See list of other banned books here...

That answers my question.

re: #147 so.cal.swede

Right, and what was Voltaire? The biggest critic of the European civilization of his time, ranking among the top critics of all time. He knew what was up, as did the founders of America, that's why they left in the first place.

You completely misunderstood me, I didn't say "all europeans are bad people" i said "We shouldn't be surprised that europeans call for book bannings, because their governments ban books every day".

Ahem.
I'm unaware of any books banned here in the UK, or France.
I'm sure you can come up with some titles which have been banned by European Governments?
There must be some, if they do this on a daily basis.

re: #183 jwb7605

Stupid question here, maybe:

Does refusing to have one of your books reprinted count as banning?

I'm specifically thinking of Winter Soldier, by John Kerry.
You simply could not get a copy of that as of the 2004 election.
Kerry campaign purchased all known remaining copies.

No, were specifically talking about making it illegal (i.e., you go to jail or pay a fine) for owning or distributing a particular book. Kerry, as the copyright holder certainly had the right not to continue to reprint his book even if his motives were questionable.

re: #146 realwest

Kindly note, from your link: "Banned in the USA in 1821 for obscenity, then again in 1963. This was the last book ever banned in the USA.[3] "
emphasis added realwest.

Why bother getting a formal ban when you can just enlist the PC squads to condemn it and apply pressure to do a vigilante ban.

re: #190 Thanos

When the banned Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape" I immediately went out and bought two copies. Bans are counterproductive, especially in this day and age where information knows few bounds due to the internet and compact data sources.

Banned? Really? By whom & why?

re: #193 Walter L. Newton

That answers my question.

Ok, that's what I was looking for, that answered my question.

re: #188 zombie

Oops, that was my fault. Sorry!

BIG ZOMBIE IS RIPPING US OFF!

I don't want Mein Kampf banned. Know thy enemy.

re: #105 so.cal.swede

I up-dinged you, but to be honest. There's a radio station in Sweden, Radio Islam, that constantly used to be slapped with hate speech judgements because of it's frequent and fervent jew-hatred.

Swede, my wife was an exchange student in Sweden. The wife and kids went back three years ago for a couple of weeks.

re: #190 Thanos

When the banned Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape" I immediately went out and bought two copies. Bans are counterproductive, especially in this day and age where information knows few bounds due to the internet and compact data sources.

don't see this movie!...there is too much explicit SEX!....

This is what ruffles my feathers...
...If Geert Wilders is being charged with Hate Speech, though Fitna was basically images of angry and violent muslims accompanied by QUOTES FROM THE Qur'an, then, shouldn't the Qur'an be considered the devil's advocate here in this case, and therefore be outlawed? If the QUOTES FROM THE DOCTRINE incite hate and violence towawrds People of the Book (Jews and Christians), Pagans, non believers, gays, hindus, buddhists, etc, then WHY are we allowing the distribution OF A HATE FILLED BOOK? Come on people! This is a case of the world turned on it's ever loving head. You can ding me down as much as you'd like, folks, but seriously, when WRONG, or hate speech/doctrine, is protected for being exposed as it stands, and RIGHT, or truth, is being charged with a crime for being HONEST, then we are looking at a world gone mad!

How to raise a family the Koranic way

Shut it Dusty, shut it...:)

re: #187 Sharmuta

I always enjoy when my typos get pointed out.

No, you didn't spell anything wrong. I was just trying to make a rye (sic) comment....
:)

re: #200 Silhouette

I don't want Mein Kampf banned. Know thy enemy.

Correct. That is a journey that needs not revisiting.

Banning the Koran is problematic. It has quite a few passages that seem quite hateful and potentially dangerous to those of us who have no intention of submitting to Islam.

However, were it banned, it is fairly likely that someone would call for the banning of the Bible on similar grounds. It is probable that someone who dislikes the Bible can find a "church" or two somewhere that interprets the Bible in ways that seem hateful and dangerous.

You would have to create biased legislation that specifically targets the Koran. Most Western countries frown on overtly biased legislation.

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

"Book Banning has existed in America since colonial times, when legislatures and royal governors enacted laws against blasphemy and seditious libel. Legislatures in the early American republic passed laws against obscenity. "

Colonial, royal governors, obscenity laws, all pre-constitution or local community standards.

I want to know the name of a book that has been made illegal to publish, own, read etc, by our federal government.

I'm not suggest that there isn't one, I just can't find it.

You missed my last post?!

Fanny Hill or Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure -- Banned in the USA in 1821 for obscenity, then again in 1963. This was the last book ever banned in the USA.[3] See also Memoirs v. Massachusetts.

faraway's link #127

re: #166 HoosierHoops

Well they should have banned 'I'm OK..Your OK' Just on General principles

I prefer "I'm OK, You can fuck right off". Much better book.

re: #206 LGoPs

No, you didn't spell anything wrong. I was just trying to make a rye (sic) comment....
:)

That's wheat of you...:)

Women are like phones:

They like to be held, talked to, and touched often.

But push the wrong button and your ass is disconnected.

The Bible is banned in schools.

re: #174 J.S.

Some of those are chuckle-worthy, despite the fact that "it's not funny because it really happened.

Black Beauty Was banned in South Africa in 1955 because of the use of the word 'black' in the title.

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Name me one book that was banned by the federal government?

Fannie Hill (Twice)

re: #151 Walter L. Newton

I know what you're point was, and I told you that I don't think any book has ever been banned by the Feds (it's such a patently un-Constitutional notion that no reasonable person could ever expect it to be approved by any Court).
But State Governments, as I'm sure you know, have banned books many times.

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

"Book Banning has existed in America since colonial times, when legislatures and royal governors enacted laws against blasphemy and seditious libel. Legislatures in the early American republic passed laws against obscenity. "

Colonial, royal governors, obscenity laws, all pre-constitution or local community standards.

I want to know the name of a book that has been made illegal to publish, own, read etc, by our federal government.

I'm not suggest that there isn't one, I just can't find it.

That's because they'e not "famous" books like the Quran or Tropic of Cancer or Howl. They're unknown books containing images of little children being abused. They're crazy rants written by a schizophrenic accusing innocent stalking victims of heinous crimes. You don't know about such books because they don't get any publicity. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of them.

re: #190 Thanos

When the banned Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape" I immediately went out and bought two copies. Bans are counterproductive, especially in this day and age where information knows few bounds due to the internet and compact data sources.

Good point, I can't think of anything banned that is not available for a price...

Sambos!

/Political correctness messing with my burger...

re: #204 Born_to_lose

... then we are looking at a world gone mad!

By George, I think he's got it!

re: #164 zombie

But it just is not possible to sell the idea that the primary religious text of one of the world's largest religions is the equivalent of child porn. I've read the Koran, and I know very well what's in it -- but anyone who says it should be banned is taking an extreme, untenable position.

The legal argument from the European standpoint is that since Mein Kampf is banned in many European countries, it should also be possible to ban the Koran, and that might be true -- in Europe. But Mein Kampf isn't banned in the US, and it shouldn't be. Extremist ideologies should be exposed, not censored and driven underground. The European model for this is wrong, unjust, and ultimately self-defeating.

In any case, this isn't the only reason Wilders is being prosecuted -- it seems to be more about the film 'Fitna.'

re: #164 zombie

Child pornography, for example, is banned in America. Just try publishing a child porn book and see how long it remained unbanned and you remain unjailed.

In order for a book of child pornography to be made, a child must first be sexually violated.

Geert Wilders has contradicted himself on this issue a lot of times.
One moment he is saying that muslims calling for a sharia have the right to do so and the other he changed his mind and wants the koran outlawed.
I think these statements came when he needed more media attention and started giving more and more extreme statements. It's sad really.

re: #197 unreconstructed rebel

Banned? Really? By whom & why?

Banned by the backdoor method of the Comstock Act - basically prohibited interstate shipment of banned books.

re: #213 faraway

Thank you!

Here's one of those cases roughly equivalent - albeit with a few important differences - to the Spanish Civil War. Ideally, both sides should lose, and they should slug it out for as long as possible, at as great a cost as possible.

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Name me one book that was banned by the federal government?

The Federal Mafia by Irwin Schiff

re: #217 zombie

That's because they'e not "famous" books like the Quran or Tropic of Cancer or Howl. They're unknown books containing images of little children being abused. They're crazy rants written by a schizophrenic accusing innocent stalking victims of heinous crimes. You don't know about such books because they don't get any publicity. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of them.

re: #215 Outrider

Fannie Hill (Twice)

That's the answers I have been asking for. Thanks!

I moving to a deserted Island.

re: #220 Walter L. Newton

She. I am a SHE, thank you. And thanks very little for the cherry picking of my argument. I guess you are contributing to the whole "world gonr mad" idea...

This is why LGF is such an excellent resource.

A decent group of people opining as to the pro & con of this situation.

I have read a couple of good arguments on both sides of the coin, and it certainly forcing me to think about the topic.

re: #193 Walter L. Newton

There have been quite a number of books banned in Canada (that's around the 1960s - 1970s), especially anything deemed "pornographic"...and Canada Customs would inspect and destroy certain titles entering the country (seized at the border)...

re: #213 faraway

The Bible is banned in schools.

All public schools?

re: #206 LGoPs

No, you didn't spell anything wrong. I was just trying to make a rye (sic) comment....
:)

Wheat a while, and you'll figure it out. Just don't get lost in a maize.
Nobody's stalking you.

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

"Book Banning has existed in America since colonial times, when legislatures and royal governors enacted laws against blasphemy and seditious libel. Legislatures in the early American republic passed laws against obscenity. "

Colonial, royal governors, obscenity laws, all pre-constitution or local community standards.

I want to know the name of a book that has been made illegal to publish, own, read etc, by our federal government.

I'm not suggest that there isn't one, I just can't find it.

re: #190 Thanos

When the banned Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape" I immediately went out and bought two copies. Bans are counterproductive, especially in this day and age where information knows few bounds due to the internet and compact data sources.

Banning doesn't define the availability or access to works that were deemed either seditious to the government or to obscenity. They're still available. Someone still owns/holds copies. You just won't find them in the checkout at the Federal Libraries.

re: #222 MandyManners

In order for a book of child pornography to be made, a child must first be sexually violated.

Yes, but the crime most often is committed outside the US jurisdiction in a foreign country.

It is a crime to merely publish a photograph of child molestation -- over and above the crime of the molestation itself.

re: #222 MandyManners

She was. Her name was Aisha. and she was 9 when Muhammad consumated the marriage...

re: #164 zombie

You put it in a nutshell, zombie.

I hope and believe that for Wilders, it is indeed about opening a discussion for everybody about what the Qur'an says, and not about an administrative ban, without discussion - because the people are too dumb to understand.

Personally, I think the more we discuss openly what the Qur'an says - without being accused of 'hate speech' by jihadists and 'moderate' muslims, the better.

The constant confusion ebtween what we in the West udnerstand by 'truce', and what Muslims udnerstand by it is just one example why such a discussion is needed.

I've been googling this, and surprisingly enough there are books banned by the Federal government that are not pornography.

re: #231 J.S.

There have been quite a number of books banned in Canada (that's around the 1960s - 1970s), especially anything deemed "pornographic"...and Canada Customs would inspect and destroy certain titles entering the country (seized at the border)...

As I said a number of times above, thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that there ever was a outright federal ban on any book.

I stand enlightened.

re: #208 David IV of Georgia

Banning the Koran is problematic. It has quite a few passages that seem quite hateful and potentially dangerous to those of us who have no intention of submitting to Islam.

However, were it banned, it is fairly likely that someone would call for the banning of the Bible on similar grounds. It is probable that someone who dislikes the Bible can find a "church" or two somewhere that interprets the Bible in ways that seem hateful and dangerous.

You would have to create biased legislation that specifically targets the Koran. Most Western countries frown on overtly biased legislation.

I agree that the Koran shouldn't be banned. But in some place where "hate speech" laws are used against those who point out that terrroism and Islam are connected, then the same laws should be used, if not against the Koran, against the hate literature in the radical mosques.

Seriously, this is interesting.

One aspect of this argument, I do not like the fact that books such as Alms for Jihad have been banned.

Keep typing, this is good stuff.

re: #212 rightside

Women are like phones:

They like to be held, talked to, and touched often.

But push the wrong button and your ass is disconnected.

rightside are you having a bad, gender related day?

re: #238 Outrider

Unreal. I guess we're not nearly as free as we think we are.
I just looked at some of the links (everything from Henry Miller to DH Lawrence). Did nobody (publisher, author?) ever challenge these bans in a Fed. Court?

re: #202 buzzsawmonkey

I think the speech laws as well as his proposal for dealing with islam in The Netherlands are both wrong. I'm not saying I have no sympathy for him, just that it's low. He's raised serious questions in my mind about his character by calling the koran fascist on the one hand, then befriending neo-fascist sympathizers and contemplating an alliance whit neo-fascist political parties. He recognizes the fascism in one but not the other- that's troubling to me.

Again- what the Dutch courts are doing is wrong. But his rhetoric is no better.

Not at all. Just thought I would post something humorous. Call it a palate cleanser.

I hope the fact that we are debating Geert's stance on banning the koran means that we are all agreed on the outrage of the trial and so found something else to hash about. And that it doesn't mean that some think that maybe the Dutch have a point in trying him, because of his call for banning a book.

Don't BAN the Koran.
Publish a book highlighting the objectionable material in the Koran.
Do the same with any other book you don't like.

If book are banned, only criminals will have books.

re: #224 Thanos

Banned by the backdoor method of the Comstock Act - basically prohibited interstate shipment of banned books.

Took a quick peek at your link. Applying the Comstock Act to The Naked Ape is certainly a stretch. Wow.

re: #231 J.S.

There have been quite a number of books banned in Canada (that's around the 1960s - 1970s), especially anything deemed "pornographic"...and Canada Customs would inspect and destroy certain titles entering the country (seized at the border)...

That's funny..Cause they have never found the Cubans Cigars we sneak in country..Why look at book titles?
LOL

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent point, BZM! The Nazis banned and burned books. Fitna should be required viewing for all EU members. It was said, when the Hate Speech laws were passed, that Muslims would be the benefactors. There they go again!

Gaza Strip smuggling tunnels operating despite IDF offensive

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni headed to Brussels where Israeli officials said she hoped to clinch a deal committing the EU to contribute forces, ships and technology to stop arms smuggling to Hamas.

EU officials said it was too early for that, saying providing humanitarian relief and efforts to secure a lasting cease-fire were their priorities.

Doesn't the EU response just say it all?
Those sons of bitches.

re: #233 Kosh's Shadow

Wheat a while, and you'll figure it out. Just don't get lost in a maize.
Nobody's stalking you.

Maize as in corn? Hominy corns are we talkin' about?

re: #202 buzzsawmonkey

I think I get this. Although you oppose book-bans, you uphold his right to voice his opinion that a book should be banned. Freedom of speech applies to those who call for its destruction, too.

re: #235 zombie

Yes, but the crime most often is committed outside the US jurisdiction in a foreign country.

It is a crime to merely publish a photograph of child molestation -- over and above the crime of the molestation itself.

It should remain a crime to publish or even distribute such a book. It furthers a crime.

re: #227 Outrider

The Federal Mafia by Irwin Schiff

The book is not banned, there is an injunction against certain sellers.

On August 9, 2004, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld an injunction issued by a U.S. District Court in Nevada under 26 U.S.C. § 7408 against Irwin Schiff and associates Cynthia Neun and Lawrence Cohen, against the sale of this book by those persons.[14] This prohibition does not extend to other sellers of the book.

Once again the Ninth is mucking about.

re: #244 Lincolntf

Unreal. I guess we're not nearly as free as we think we are.
I just looked at some of the links (everything from Henry Miller to DH Lawrence). Did nobody (publisher, author?) ever challenge these bans in a Fed. Court?

All of the bans have been overturned, with the possible exception of The Federal Mafia and I'm still looking at that one.

They were all challenged and overturned.

i'm wondering when/if leftists will see that pandering to and coddling the worst and most dangerous scum in society is just plain wrong.
there is no place for cowardice in the world today. w/ such a dangerous foe on the horizon.
and i'm so hoping that phony pc intellectualism won't trump our basic sense of survival for ever.
or until evil prevails and rules.
time to wake up and prevent that bleak possibility.
not to gloss over it and persecute the messenger.

re: #246 rightside

Not at all. Just thought I would post something humorous. Call it a palate cleanser.

Consider your palate cleansed.

re: #236 Born_to_lose

She was. Her name was Aisha. and she was 9 when Muhammad consumated the marriage...

There are photographs/drawings of molestation in the Koran?

re: #213 faraway

The Bible is banned in schools.

You mean if I go into any public school library, there will not be a Bible there?
Are you sure about that?