Holocaust Denier Mark Weber: ‘We’ve Failed’

US News • Views: 5,745

Holocaust-denying pinhead Mark Weber, director of the “Institute for Historical Review,” is admitting that their revisionist fight is a lost cause: Revisionist: It’s Time To Quit Shoah Fight.

Americans are a little too sane for this garbage, and Europe has laws against it. But Weber and his goons did have some success … in Iran.

One of the primary leaders in the fight to question and delegitimize the Holocaust has proclaimed that fight to be a lost cause, sparking a furious debate among his cohorts.

Mark Weber, a telegenic Californian, has served for 15 years as director of the Institute for Historical Review, which was founded in the late 1970s as a center for people dedicated to doubting and criticizing mainstream histories of the Holocaust.

This month, however, Weber released an essay on the institute’s Web site, questioning whether this work has ever had any relevance. Weber argued that Holocaust revisionists are unlikely to have any success in convincing large numbers of people.

“It’s been almost 30 years, and Holocaust revisionism has gotten almost no support in academic circles or society at large,” Weber told the Forward. “It’s gotten some support in Iran, or places like that, but as far as I know, there is no history department supporting writing by these folks.”

The argument in Weber’s essay, “How Relevant Is Holocaust Revisionism?” might appear, at first glance, to be good news for the Jewish organizations that have fought against Holocaust revisionists. But in his essay, Weber calls for his movement to shift to a new mission, one more purely directed to fighting against “Jewish-Zionist power.”

More at counterknowledge.com, where a sleazy Holocaust denier actually turns up in the comments for Joseph Welch’s post (cranks feel safe at sites that don’t require comment registration): Is it all over for Holocaust deniers? Mark Weber admits ‘We’ve failed’.

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359 comments
1 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:29:11am

Facts are troublesome things.

2 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:29:35am

Yeah the fresh smell of a new thread

3 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:29:39am

Much as I hate to say it, I'm afraid this creep is admitting defeat too soon. I fear that conditions are all too ripe for Holocaust denial to become a booming business in coming years.

4 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:30:20am

Pat Buchanan is crushed.

5 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:30:36am

Well, if his work has inspired Iran, I would say the damage has already been done.

6 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:05am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Pat Buchanan is crushed.

I'm I supposed to feel something?

Other than maybe glee?

7 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:06am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Pat Buchanan is crushed.

World's smallest violin...

8 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:13am

That only Iran supports Holocaust revision should tell them something.
At least, I'd look at the crowd approval from that perspective.

9 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:13am

I guess the Pope didn't get the memo?

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

10 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:41am

re: #5 BryanS

Well, if his work has inspired Iran, I would say the damage has already been done.

I think the thugs in Iran didn't really need his "help" to hate Jews.

11 debutaunt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:43am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Pat Buchanan is crushed.

I'd get in line to slap his silly face.

12 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:31:59am

Mark Weber is also a failure as a Human being.

13 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:32:15am

Facts are STUBBORN THINGS. That is all.

-S-

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:32:30am

Telegenic? So he's a good looking moron?

15 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:32:42am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Pat Buchanan is crushed.

Am I wrong, I didn't think that Buchanan denied it as much as he shifts the blame for it around, and questions the overall harm it has done?

16 pegcity  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:33:08am

damn all those documents, concentration camps, video evidence etc

17 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:33:13am

re: #15 Walter L. Newton

Revisionism, Walter.

18 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:33:22am

ManUp Mark at least fesses...is he oblivious to the world wide damage he's inflicted on Jews?....did he reach one of his goals?

19 NYCHardhat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:33:35am

success ... in Iran.

That about sums it up for me.

20 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:34:02am

re: #17 Sharmuta

Revisionism, Walter.

Ok, got you.

21 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:35:05am

Weber is part of a circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

And like some so-called "anti-jihad" bloggers, the Council of Conservative Citizens is also connected to the Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the French National Front.

22 BingoBunny  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:35:53am

So they will admit the holocaust happened?, but claim it wasn't enought? and thats going to fly how?

/liberals start buying armbands?

23 Erik The Red  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:36:10am

Later Lizards. I did my goal of staying around for the whole LNDT and 1400+ comments. Play nice and stay scaly. See you on the LNDT tomorrow.

24 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:36:13am

Semi-OT: Update - Vatican reinstates Holocaust denier.....
Vatican Lifts Excommunication Of Four Bishops, Including One Holocaust Denier

Pope Benedict XVI has lifted the excommunication of four bishops, including one who said on Swedish television this week that he doubts 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II.

The bishops were all members of the Switzerland-based Society of St. Pius X, which was founded in 1969 by ultra-conservative French Archbishop Marcel Lefabvre.
.....
Earlier this week, one of the bishops, Richard Williamson, told Swedish state television that historic evidence "is hugely against 6 million Jews having being deliberately gassed" by the Nazis in the 1930s and 1940s.

The statement prompted Rome's top rabbi to urge Pope Benedict to halt the Vatican's rehabilitation of the bishop.

A Vatican spokesman said decision to lift the excommunication was done to normalize relations with the Society of St. Pius X, and that the Vatican doesn't agree with Williamson's views.

I was really hoping the Vatican would change it's mind at the last minute. Oh, well.

25 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:36:14am

I've read a bit of holocaust revisionism. I always found it to be exceptionally poor history. They always clutch at straws and ignore the weight of well documented narrative.

26 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:36:30am

re: #10 Occasional Reader

Iran as you say didn't really needed the help to hate Israel. But this idea--wiping out actual factual history--has been taken by Iran and promulgated throughout their society. The damage has been to take the idea of wiping out the horrors of taking their antisemitism to the extreme of holocaust. If we never learn from history, well you know the rest.

27 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:37:04am

re: #21 Charles

Weber is part of a little circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

And like some so-called "anti-jihad" bloggers, the Council of Conservative Citizens is also connected to the Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the French National Front.

I'm shocked. ///////

28 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:37:14am

re: #21 Charles

Weber is part of a little circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

And like some so-called "anti-jihad" bloggers, the Council of Conservative Citizens is also connected to the Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the French National Front.

Do you get hate letters like on Christmas and Easter from all these groups and people?

29 Occasional Reader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:00am

re: #21 Charles

Weber is part of a little circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

And like some so-called "anti-jihad" bloggers, the Council of Conservative Citizens is also connected to the Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the French National Front.

Hey, nobody's perfect.

/

30 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:04am

re: #21 Charles

A confession: the sister of a close friend of mine married Mark Weber decades ago. Her family was horrified. Everything you say about his connections, including Buchanan, is true. I haven't seen his name in print for years.

31 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:10am

Poor pathetic little Weber. Everywhere he turned he was confronted with and confounded with the facts that proved what he wanted to deny. Now he sheds the mask entirely and goes full tilt with naked Jew hatred

Can we give him the Rachel Cory prize?

32 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:15am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: Update - Vatican reinstates Holocaust denier.....
Vatican Lifts Excommunication Of Four Bishops, Including One Holocaust Denier

I was really hoping the Vatican would change it's mind at the last minute. Oh, well.

Why would the Vatican want to normalize relations with a group that barely recognizes the power and office of the Pope.

Can't we all just get along?
/

33 NYCHardhat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:36am

OT: Help us.

34 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:37am

re: #21 Charles

Heh. Reminds me of the BBC TV series Connections, hosted by James Burke. Just follow the dots.

35 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:38:41am

Seriously. I am having a problem with the word "telegenic". What is the source of this article, Us Magazine? People? GQ? Associated Press?

36 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:40:17am
But in his essay, Weber calls for his movement to shift to a new mission, one more purely directed to fighting against “Jewish-Zionist power.”

Just keep telling yourself, pamela, that your new friends support Israel. When they're not bullshitting you- these are the people they hang with.

37 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:40:38am

re: #31 Syrah

Poor pathetic little Weber. Everywhere he turned he was confronted with and confounded with the facts that proved what he wanted to deny. Now he sheds the mask entirely and goes full tilt with naked Jew hatred

Can we give him the Rachel Cory prize?

I get the impression that he is amazed that the rest of the world is confounded with the facts. I don't suspect he has changed his mind one little bit.

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:41:37am

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

I assume the decision has something to do with political power but I don't really have a clue.

39 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:41:46am

re: #30 quickjustice

A confession: the sister of a close friend of mine married Mark Weber decades ago. Her family was horrified. Everything you say about his connections, including Buchanan, is true. I haven't seen his name in print for years.

You don't have to follow too many connections to get from outright Holocaust deniers to Pat Buchanan and the Vlaams Belang. And now from them to Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Gates of Vienna, Brussels Journal, etc.

These are the people we were urged to make alliances with.

40 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:41:51am

Deniers are experiencing a pragmatic split in how best to make use of the Holocaust for their own ends.
For some in the Middle East, it's more useful to have "A New Holocaust" rhetoric as a bludgeon with which to accuse Israel, so they can't logically continue to deny it. (Of course that doesn't stop some from the logical disconnect)
The European branch is now more concerned with expelling Muslims from their countries, so they're toning Holocaust denial down in favor of an 'everyone back to your own land' approach, which requires them to recognize Israel.

41 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:42:04am

I think its relevant to add that during the war the future Pope John XXIII was instrumental in opposing the holocaust.


And while I find the silence of Pope Pius XII after the war to be troubling the most comprehensive Jewish study of Pope Pius XII efforts to save Jews from the Holocaust is a strong endorsement of the efforts.


Interestingly, Pope Pius XII maintained his strong reputation from the war until the 1960's when:



The campaign of vilification against Pope Pius can be traced to the debut in Berlin in February 1963 of a play, by a young, Protestant, left-wing West German writer and playwright, Rolf Hochhuth. The Deputy, in which Hochhuth depicts Pacelli as a Nazi collaborator, guilty of moral cowardice and "silence" in the face of the Nazi onslaught, is a scathing indictment of Pope Pius XII's alleged indifferences to the plight of European Jewry during the Holocaust.


Hochhuth's play ignited a public controversy about Pius XII that continues this day. Despite the fact that The Deputy was a purely fictional and highly polemical play, which offered little or no historical evidence for its allegations against Pope Pius XII, it was widely discussed and acclaimed



Recently, several books (Hitler's Pope) among others have attempted to revise history in favor of the fictitious account of Pius XII. And while some of these books use historical method I do not think they will succeed in changing the original estimation of the man by the principle witness'. A rebuttle to the recent, negative publications is found here.

42 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:42:29am

In the first known case of what may be transmission of the Ebola virus from a pig to a human, a pig handler in the Philippines has tested positive for a strain of the virus, world health officials and the Philippine government announced Friday.

[Link: www.iht.com...]

Maybe this is G-D's way of telling me I better Kosher my house?

43 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:43:25am

What is the purpose of denying the Holocaust? What possibly could be the motivation, historical accuracy? Not likely ,the evidence is overwhelming , including accounts of liberating troops.
It is anti Semiticism, & an effort to strip Jews of any sympathy.

44 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:43:35am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I get the impression that he is amazed that the rest of the world is confounded with the facts. I don't suspect he has changed his mind one little bit.

True. His initial "denial strategy" failed. Now he works on another, with much less subterfuge. The goal was the same then as it is now, to spread hatred of Jews.

45 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:44:21am

re: #40 jaunte

The European branch is now more concerned with expelling Muslims from their countries, so they're toning Holocaust denial down in favor of an 'everyone back to your own land' approach, which requires them to recognize Israel.

Killgore has mentioned before that the neo-fascists now "support" Israel because in a twisted way it supports their ideology of racial nationalism. I've long agreed with him.

46 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:44:31am

re: #42 Nevergiveup

Maybe this is G-D's way of telling me I better Kosher my house?

Avian Flu? Mad Cow Disease? Now Ebola?

I've never had a rash from a radish.

47 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:44:37am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I was about to post the same item.

Where Jews are concerned this is one schizophrenic Pope.

48 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:44:51am

re: #21 Charles

Weber is part of a circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

And like some so-called "anti-jihad" bloggers, the Council of Conservative Citizens is also connected to the Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the French National Front.

Why do I find these connections so ... unsurprising ... sigh.

49 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:44:53am

If you read their more unhinged sites they are always denying the 'Holohoax' while expressing their desire to commit one. shizophrenic bigots.

50 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:45:00am

re: #43 opnion

I have never understood the concept. Ever.

51 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:46:11am

the haters can spin this any way they want, but the one truth remains this: there are people in the world who hate Jews and want to see a "Holocaust II" and a "Holocaust III," etc until all the Jews are gone. And all the political bullshit about "Zionism" is nothing more than old fashioned Jew hatred in a different package. Even Martin Luther King himself said that "anti Zionism" is simply "anti semitism." I will try and find his quote.

52 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:46:24am

FNC just did a teaser on one of the Swedish clerics denying the Holocaust.
They cut to commercial & said that they are coming back to it.

53 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:46:56am

On FOX right now.

54 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:47:20am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Pat Buchanan is crushed.

Buchanan isn't a Holocaust denier.

He just regrets not being old enough to have enjoyed the show.

Which is why he is hoping for a revival in the Mideast.

55 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:47:24am

The Institute for Historical Review Revision”

fixed

56 Nevergiveup  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:47:31am

“It seems the era of Hope is to be inaugurated with a slaughter of the innocents.”

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

Nothing new here, I just like the way she worded it.

57 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:47:56am

re: #45 Sharmuta

Killgore has mentioned before that the neo-fascists now "support" Israel because in a twisted way it supports their ideology of racial nationalism. I've long agreed with him.

Yes, I think you're right. Fascism is an opportunistic political infection.

58 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:48:11am

re: #54 Opinionated

He's a revisionist. I don't consider that to be much of an improvement.

59 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:48:30am

re: #50 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have never understood the concept. Ever.

It runs counter to the empirical evidence.

60 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:48:55am

re: #39 Charles

They are also putting a lot of energy into defending some chick from the Austrian FPO who was convicted of hate speech last week.

61 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:48:58am

re: #40 jaunte

Deniers are experiencing a pragmatic split in how best to make use of the Holocaust for their own ends.
For some in the Middle East, it's more useful to have "A New Holocaust" rhetoric as a bludgeon with which to accuse Israel, so they can't logically continue to deny it. (Of course that doesn't stop some from the logical disconnect)
The European branch is now more concerned with expelling Muslims from their countries, so they're toning Holocaust denial down in favor of an 'everyone back to your own land' approach, which requires them to recognize Israel.

The strategy actually has a name: Entryism.

Entryism is not an exclusively left-wing phenomenon; it is also found in the far-right entering mainstream right-wing groups, e.g., National Front infiltration of National Council of Civil Liberties in the United Kingdom, and British National Party members joining the UK Independence Party.

62 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:49:27am

The Zionist tentacle theory is alive and well in far right and left circles. The topic normally rears it's ugly head when you use facts and logic to defend Israel in any way, shape, or form. It's the classic "fall back when all else fails" theory.

63 outsidephilly  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:49:28am

bbl

64 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:49:43am

re: #43 opnion

What is the purpose of denying the Holocaust? What possibly could be the motivation, historical accuracy? Not likely ,the evidence is overwhelming , including accounts of liberating troops.
It is anti Semiticism, & an effort to strip Jews of any sympathy.

I think part of it is to absolve their own countries, like Holland of responsibility for cooperation with the Nazis.

65 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:50:06am

re: #43 opnion

What is the purpose of denying the Holocaust? What possibly could be the motivation, historical accuracy? Not likely ,the evidence is overwhelming , including accounts of liberating troops.
It is anti Semiticism, & an effort to strip Jews of any sympathy.

IMHO the "rational" runs like this. The holocaust was the reason the European powers gave Israel a state. Debunk the reason for the existence of the Israel. They then have firmer ground for advocating the dissolution of Israel.

At least that's what I think is running through their pea brains.

66 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:50:09am

Mr. Weber may be giving up (I really doubt that), but there are others waiting to stand in his spotlight to proselytize the Holocaust denial garbage.

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Interesting how as I type this FNC on the Left coast has a bit about the Vatican and this new acceptance of the excommunicated bishop.

67 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:50:17am

re: #36 Sharmuta

Just keep telling yourself, pamela, that your new friends support Israel. When they're not bullshitting you- these are the people they hang with.

The anti semitic version of Taqiyya.

68 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:50:56am

re: #43 opnion

What is the purpose of denying the Holocaust? What possibly could be the motivation, historical accuracy? Not likely ,the evidence is overwhelming , including accounts of liberating troops.
It is anti Semiticism, & an effort to strip Jews of any sympathy.

It plays into the concept of Jewish World Domination.

That the lying Jews are so powerful and are able to distort history for their "benefit".

If proved that the Jews lied about this, what won't they lie about.

It is a method, at the end, to elicit hatred of Jews/Israel.

69 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:51:14am

[Link: christianactionforisrael.org...]

Martin Luther King on anti Zionism ... a great read.

70 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:52:21am

re: #69 _RememberTonyC

[Link: christianactionforisrael.org...]

Martin Luther King on anti Zionism ... a great read.

What does he know?/sarc

71 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:53:20am

re: #45 Sharmuta

Even reading this article on holocaust denial I wonder if it's the beginning of a shift from American antisemites. Parties like VB and the BNP need to make the shift to survive so it's almost a necesity. In America holocaust denial and hating Jews isn't illegal but it doesn't help popularize their ultimate goal. They can gain a lot of credibility in certain circles by embracing Israel.

72 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:53:59am

re: #64 DistantThunder

re: #65 jcm

I think that you both make a strong point. However the denial is silly, it flys in the face of all credible historical accounts. Our troops did not liberate reeducation camps, they were death camps.
I am all for free speech, but it cuts both ways. Others are free to label the deniers as hateful charlatons.

73 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:54:01am

re: #70 DistantThunder

What does he know?/sarc


LOL ... but my "dream dinner party" guest list includes MLK.

74 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:54:14am
75 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:54:34am

re: #66 FurryOldGuyJeans

What are they saying about it? Anything interesting?

76 Anna  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:54:45am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I hear they have made a nano-sized violin. Lucikly we can't hear it play for Pat.

Lets hope this junk stays dead, unlike democrat voters.

77 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:55:02am

re: #68 Opinionated

It plays into the concept of Jewish World Domination.

That the lying Jews are so powerful and are able to distort history for their "benefit".

If proved that the Jews lied about this, what won't they lie about.

It is a method, at the end, to elicit hatred of Jews/Israel.


Sounds reasonable. The problem is that it gets traction.

78 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:55:39am

re: #69 _RememberTonyC

[Link: christianactionforisrael.org...]

Martin Luther King on anti Zionism ... a great read.

Thank you for that - he says it as it is.

Ought to be read and published everywhere, especially now that Israel is standing alone (except for flowering rethoric everywhere ...)

79 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:56:00am
80 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:56:03am

re: #72 opnion

re: #65 jcm

I think that you both make a strong point. However the denial is silly, it flys in the face of all credible historical accounts. Our troops did not liberate reeducation camps, they were death camps.
I am all for free speech, but it cuts both ways. Others are free to label the deniers as hateful charlatons.

Logical has long since flown the coop with this bunch. It's easier to let them speak, and marginalize the speech. Driving bad ideas underground only makes them more dangerous in the long run.

81 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:56:06am

The finest demolition of a Holocaust denier was the trial of David Irving arguably the most intelligent of the lot. The court transcripts are a brilliant legal historical drama packed with superb scholarship.


The trial of David Irving

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:56:24am

Mr. Weber will learn the meaning of "all over" when he has to stand at the judgment bar of God and answer for what he has done.

83 freedomsound  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:57:04am

re: #69 _RememberTonyC

FYI, that letter is a hoax.

However, MLK's sentiments on the issue are accurate. See:

Camera

84 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:57:16am

re: #80 jcm

Logical has long since flown the coop with this bunch. It's easier to let them speak, and marginalize the speech. Driving bad ideas underground only makes them more dangerous in the long run.


I agree with that, let them compete in the market place of ideas & crush them with facts.

85 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:57:33am

re: #74 ploome hineni

from the article you referenced:

"To deny the Holocaust is not a heresy even though it is a lie," he said. "The excommunication can be lifted because he is not a heretic, but he remains a liar."

Well, if the the Catholic clergy can rape boys and not be excommunicated, why bother with worrying over a liar.

86 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:58:00am
87 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:58:12am

re: #21 Charles

Weber is part of a little circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

And like some so-called "anti-jihad" bloggers, the Council of Conservative Citizens is also connected to the Vlaams Belang, the BNP and the French National Front.

What a nest of vipers!

88 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:58:33am

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Gotta love the disconnect you suggested people might employ; embrace Israel so you can publicly be able to hate Jews.

89 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:58:36am

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Even reading this article on holocaust denial I wonder if it's the beginning of a shift from American antisemites. Parties like VB and the BNP need to make the shift to survive so it's almost a necesity. In America holocaust denial and hating Jews isn't illegal but it doesn't help popularize their ultimate goal. They can gain a lot of credibility in certain circles by embracing Israel.

I would think that the plain and simple bottom line for these groups is the fact that in some sense, what happened in WWII, did remove the "jewish problem" for folks of this ilk.

These people are white nationalist, and the current threat is people of middle eastern and Islamic backgrounds.

A new threat, as they see it, to their Aryan paradise. So, it's only normal for them to try to tuck under the rug their past proclivities and find new allies to support their current campaign.

90 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 9:59:19am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: Update - Vatican reinstates Holocaust denier.....
Vatican Lifts Excommunication Of Four Bishops, Including One Holocaust Denier


I was really hoping the Vatican would change it's mind at the last minute. Oh, well.

Look at the crap the Vatican has allowed to be said about Hamas and genocide recently!

91 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:01am

re: #82 EmmmieG

Mr. Weber will learn the meaning of "all over" when he has to stand at the judgment bar of God and answer for what he has done.

I'm more concern that people like Mr. Weber stands judgement now. I'm not willing to wait for some supernatural court of justice.

92 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:07am

re: #81 Westward Ho

The finest demolition of a Holocaust denier was the trial of David Irving arguably the most intelligent of the lot. The court transcripts are a brilliant legal historical drama packed with superb scholarship.

The trial of David Irving

Holocaust denial should give us a clue about how hard it will be to convince any Obots - the holocaust even had film of the atrocities.

"Let's go to the footage.."

93 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:12am

re: #84 opnion

I agree with that, let them compete in the market place of ideas & crush them with facts.

... and hear the lamentation of their women!
// ;-)

94 Anna  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:27am

re: #74 ploome hineni

I like how the Church recognizes that Williamson is a liar. Now they got to figure out what to do with the radioactive twit.

95 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:42am

OK, it had to happen. Someone had to drag Obama into this & I nominate me. He sat in a pew for 20 years listening to the Rabid Rev among other things spew anti Semitiism. He also befriended Farakhan who I believe thinks that the Holocaust was Allah's retribution on the Jews.

96 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:50am

re: #83 freedomsound

FYI, that letter is a hoax.

However, MLK's sentiments on the issue are accurate. See:

Camera

Aww ...
Dinged you up as well - and bookmarked it, as well.

Better to know what was truthfully written, and what was just expressed as a 'possible letter' which can be debunked by enemies of MLK.

Another 'fake but accurate' moment ...

97 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:59am
98 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:00:59am

re: #75 Killgore Trout

What are they saying about it? Anything interesting?

It was way too quick, and really was just fluff. Nothing substantive was said IMO. Sounded like the new meme to attack the church now that the pedophile priests one is losing steam with the public.

99 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:02:00am

re: #35 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seriously. I am having a problem with the word "telegenic". What is the source of this article, Us Magazine? People? GQ? Associated Press?

I see your point, but unforunately people are more likely to listen to an attractive speaker than an unattractive one. Sad, but a simple fact.

They did a study with kids and two pictures: A mean-looking old lady looking angry and holding a cat by the scruff of its neck, and a plump, grandmotherly-looking old lady doing the same. The kids were more likely to ascribe bad motivation to the ugly one than the attractive one.

I suppose I could make a point here about attractive Hollywood stars spouting absolutely silliness, and being listened to, but I'd be preaching to the choir.

100 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:02:08am

re: #83 freedomsound

FYI, that letter is a hoax.

However, MLK's sentiments on the issue are accurate. See:

Camera

thanks for the heads up ... but the main message (as you said) is that MLK got it right on anti Zionism more than 40 years ago!

101 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:02:40am
102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:02:42am

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

I would think that the plain and simple bottom line for these groups is the fact that in some sense, what happened in WWII, did remove the "jewish problem" for folks of this ilk.

These people are white nationalist, and the current threat is people of middle eastern and Islamic backgrounds.

A new threat, as they see it, to their Aryan paradise. So, it's only normal for them to try to tuck under the rug their past proclivities and find new allies to support their current campaign.

Aryan and Socialist paradise. No more free monies to anyone not a white European.

103 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:03:03am

re: #25 experiencedtraveller

I've read a bit of holocaust revisionism. I always found it to be exceptionally poor history. They always clutch at straws and ignore the weight of well documented narrative.


* * * *

Kind of like Islamic revisionist history. Delusional losers refuse to accept reality.

Lizards deal with reality.

104 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:03:17am

re: #79 ploome hineni

if Jews killed GOD

what does it say about GOD

and what does it say about the power of JEws...JEWS ARE GOD

it is so fucking INSANE

As a Jew, I can't explain any of the fallacious logic to explain anti Semitism.

I need an anti Semite to rationally attempt to explain to me why they hate me for being Jewish.

105 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:03:46am

re: #95 opnion

OK, it had to happen. Someone had to drag Obama into this & I nominate me. He sat in a pew for 20 years listening to the Rabid Rev among other things spew anti Semitiism. He also befriended Farakhan who I believe thinks that the Holocaust was Allah's retribution on the Jews.


this was my #1 fear about him prior to the election. however, he has surrounded himself with Jews in his inner circle (Emanual, Axelrod, et al). so that has eased my fear a bit.

106 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:04:25am

re: #86 ploome hineni

that is why the Church is dead/dying

re: #97 ploome hineni

True. Nothing much has changed since the days of Luther. The Catholic church still is a corrupt enterprise. It's history is steeped in antisemitism. They should be doing everything they can to correct that, but somehow they cannot manage to confront their own problems.

107 summergurl  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:05:08am

OT ---

Barney Frank is such a lispy jerk. Now he claims that he was right in giving 12 mil to a bank in Boston even though their was proven unsafe business practices? Just because it was the only black owned bank?

Talk about pandering. What ever happened to sound business decisions? What if it was white owned? Or Korean owned? What a crockcrook.


Frankenberry

108 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:05:44am

re: #104 Opinionated

As a Jew, I can't explain any of the fallacious logic to explain anti Semitism.

I need an anti Semite to rationally attempt to explain to me why they hate me for being Jewish.

They cannot - not rationally.
Thus, the more they feel pushed into a corner with no way out, the greater the hate.

Antisemitism, in my eyes, is a clear sign of people having forsaken their humanity.

109 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:06:20am

re: #85 BryanS

from the article you referenced:


Well, if the the Catholic clergy can rape boys and not be excommunicated, why bother with worrying over a liar.

* * * *
Remember Madrassah schools are also places where children are violated by their mullah masters.

AND many American cities now have & welcome madrassah Islamic Saudi Academies by popular demand.

Obama attended an indonesian madrassah as a child.

Don't delude yourself that only Catholics abuse children please.

110 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:06:33am

re: #105 _RememberTonyC

this was my #1 fear about him prior to the election. however, he has surrounded himself with Jews in his inner circle (Emanual, Axelrod, et al). so that has eased my fear a bit.

I take your point, but a lot of Jews in my experience are not very pro Jewish. I have no idea about Emanuel & Axlerod , but I still do not trust BHO.

111 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:06:40am

re: #105 _RememberTonyC

this was my #1 fear about him prior to the election. however, he has surrounded himself with Jews in his inner circle (Emanual, Axelrod, et al). so that has eased my fear a bit.

There are Jews and there are Jews. Emanuel is so far a mystery. Axelrod does not think of himself as a Jew.

112 itellu3times  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:07:04am

re: #65 jcm

IMHO the "rational" runs like this. The holocaust was the reason the European powers gave Israel a state. Debunk the reason for the existence of the Israel. They then have firmer ground for advocating the dissolution of Israel.

At least that's what I think is running through their pea brains.

I think good old fashioned anti-semitism is reason enough. Pat Buchanan would be anti-semitic if there were no Israel, or if Israel had all the oil and the Arabs had none, don't make no never-mind to the likes of him.

Besides, anti-semitism is an attachment, for a certain type of mind, to the socialist and rationalist claims of Naziism, that makes the believer feel stronger and more right than ever, and acting in the tradition of all of the above. So much for socialist and rationalist claims, one should conclude.

113 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:07:17am

re: #109 alegrias

* * * *
Remember Madrassah schools are also places where children are violated by their mullah masters.

AND many American cities now have & welcome madrassah Islamic Saudi Academies by popular demand.

Obama attended an indonesian madrassah as a child.

Don't delude yourself that only Catholics abuse children please.

The ACLU is taking on one in Minneapolis.

114 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:07:36am

re: #109 alegrias

Ohh...everyone else rapes children too. I feel much better now.

115 summergurl  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:07:41am

re: #97 ploome hineni

interesting FUCKING nuance from the people who brought you RATLINES


Hey it's the doctrine my friend... Same way a murderer on death row who seeks absolution and truly repents can still get into Heaven.

Catholics don't hold a grudge and say "Nope, that was really really bad so I choose not to forgive you." That's the law of man not God.

116 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:07:46am

re: #105 _RememberTonyC

this was my #1 fear about him prior to the election. however, he has surrounded himself with Jews in his inner circle (Emanual, Axelrod, et al). so that has eased my fear a bit.

when i read a few says ago that moonbat groups in Israel - yes, jews living in Israel! - want to have the IDF dragged before the Inetrnational court because of 'war crimes', then I wouldn't be so certain that PB0 having some Jews in his entourage is a good sign for Israel.

Sorry about that.

117 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:08:10am

re: #110 opnion

I take your point, but a lot of Jews in my experience are not very pro Jewish. I have no idea about Emanuel & Axlerod , but I still do not trust BHO.

True ... but Emanual actually served in the Israeli military. And unless he is a super spy, I guess I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

118 freedomsound  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:08:11am

re: #96 yma o hyd

Better to know what was truthfully written...

Exactly. better to leave no room for accusations of false quotes.

We can still correctly quote MLK as saying,

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

and

“...peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

119 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:08:17am
120 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:08:21am

I don't understand Holocaust deniers they hate Jews so much that they should be glad that it happened.

121 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:08:47am

re: #113 MandyManners

The ACLU is taking on one in Minneapolis.

I still can not believe that is happening, but I can't deny the facts.

122 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:09:41am

re: #120 Westward Ho

I don't understand Holocaust deniers they hate Jews so much that they should be glad that it happened.

I never thought of it that way. You're correct

I guess they just aren't that smart

123 psyop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:09:48am

One of the comments said something to the effect of: I don't see why Canada and other free nations outlaw denial as the evidence is so overwhelmingly against them, they will never gain traction.

I tend to agree, just on principled free speech rights. Although, if some aspect of speech were to be outlawed, this would come the closest for me.

I certainly understand why Germany has those laws.

124 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:09:48am

re: #106 BryanS

re: #97 ploome hineni

True. Nothing much has changed since the days of Luther. The Catholic church still is a corrupt enterprise. It's history is steeped in antisemitism. They should be doing everything they can to correct that, but somehow they cannot manage to confront their own problems.

Its not as if Martin Luther himself was fond of Jews, to the contrary.
And the Lutheran/Protestant Church in Nazi Germany (and, especially, before that under the Emperor) also was pretty much antisemitic.

125 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:10:01am
126 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:10:13am

re: #106 BryanS

re: #97 ploome hineni

True. Nothing much has changed since the days of Luther. The Catholic church still is a corrupt enterprise. It's history is steeped in antisemitism. They should be doing everything they can to correct that, but somehow they cannot manage to confront their own problems.

The history of Christianity is steep in anti-semitism, almost 2000 years of it. It's not just the Catholic Church.

127 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:10:18am

re: #117 _RememberTonyC

True ... but Emanual actually served in the Israeli military. And unless he is a super spy, I guess I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That would sure make a difference.

128 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:11:10am

re: #115 summergurl

Hey it's the doctrine my friend... Same way a murderer on death row who seeks absolution and truly repents can still get into Heaven.

Catholics don't hold a grudge and say "Nope, that was really really bad so I choose not to forgive you." That's the law of man not God.

I understand forgiveness...lover the murderer, but hate the act of murder. However, what is wrong with accountability? The murderer still owes his/her debt to society. And an antisemitic SOB can be loved, but should that person hold a position of respect and esteem. No F-ing way.

129 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:11:36am

re: #120 Westward Ho

I don't understand Holocaust deniers they hate Jews so much that they should be glad that it happened.

Because the want those of us that are not Jewish, to look at Jews as liars.

130 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:11:48am

re: #86 ploome hineni

that is why the Church is dead/dying

* * * *
Islamic religious teachers rape boys and mutilate girls--isn't it in the Koran?--and they're not dying.

131 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:11:56am

re: #120 Westward Ho

It the same reason 9-11 conspiracies are so popular in the Muslim world. It's a very odd phenomenon. I think it comes from the fact that they realize they support a morally reprehensible action. This way they can simultaneously be happy it happened and rationalize that they aren't guilty.

132 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:12:10am
133 psyop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:12:18am

re: #123 psyop

One of the comments said something to the effect of: I don't see why Canada and other free nations outlaw denial as the evidence is so overwhelmingly against them, they will never gain traction.

I should clarify...

One of the comments in Joseph Welch's post.

134 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:12:49am

re: #104 Opinionated

As a Jew, I can't explain any of the fallacious logic to explain anti Semitism.

I need an anti Semite to rationally attempt to explain to me why they hate me for being Jewish.

In bootcamp, my son's DI gave the platoon a send-off speech the day of graduation and his last statement was:

"Oh by the way, you've just been trained by a Jew and to you anti-semites out there....F**K-OFF!"

135 Truck Monkey  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #118 freedomsound

Exactly. better to leave no room for accusations of false quotes.

We can still correctly quote MLK as saying,

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

and

“...peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

Arabs living in Israel have more rights guaranteed by their Jewish Government than they would have if they lived in the arab world. I am proud to say that my FIL was one of those who helped make that desert bloom oh so many years ago.

136 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:13:35am
137 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:13:49am

re: #3 Occasional Reader

Much as I hate to say it, I'm afraid this creep is admitting defeat too soon. I fear that conditions are all too ripe for Holocaust denial to become a booming business in coming years.

I thought the same thing for this reason: the WWII veterans who actually saw the death camps are disappearing. Eventually, the children of those veterans (like me) will be gone and holocaust affirmation may be likened to hearsay testimony.

138 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:13:49am

re: #125 ploome hineni

and it pains me to say that

I want a strong church People NEED a strong religious tradition....but the Church is just too utterly blind regarding the shit they expect Jews to tolerate

Yup & they want us to keep kicking into their pedophile defense fund.
I will not give them a dime unless & until they clean up.

139 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:14:23am

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

The history of Christianity is steep in anti-semitism, almost 2000 years of it. It's not just the Catholic Church.

I find it so schizophrenic for people to hate those of the lineage of what Jesus was, a Jew.

140 debutaunt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:14:38am

re: #120 Westward Ho

I don't understand Holocaust deniers they hate Jews so much that they should be glad that it happened.

What has common sense got to do with it?

141 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:14:54am

re: #130 alegrias

* * * *
Islamic religious teachers rape boys and mutilate girls--isn't it in the Koran?--and they're not dying.

Because the Mosque goers are not offended. Many Catholics are just disgusted.

142 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:15:07am
143 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:15:08am

re: #128 BryanS

I understand forgiveness...lover the murderer, but hate the act of murder. However, what is wrong with accountability? The murderer still owes his/her debt to society. And an antisemitic SOB can be loved, but should that person hold a position of respect and esteem. No F-ing way.

There's three aspect two forgiveness.
The forgiveness of God upon repentance is absolute. But also require is to seek sincerely forgiveness of the aggrieved party. Finally as you mention there is the consequences in this world to be paid. God's forgiveness, does not remove or eliminate payment of these consequences.

144 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:15:09am

re: #128 BryanS

Totally agree with you--forgiveness does not mean allowing a person to be put back in a position to hurt you. Some people can't be back in society for this reason. I actually support the death penalty for this reason--some people are so dangerous they must be executed because they will hurt other people as soon as they have a chance, and our courts can't be counted on to consider our safety.

145 summergurl  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:15:16am

re: #128 BryanS

I understand forgiveness...lover the murderer, but hate the act of murder. However, what is wrong with accountability? The murderer still owes his/her debt to society. And an antisemitic SOB can be loved, but should that person hold a position of respect and esteem. No F-ing way.


I agree however that is not true forgiveness.

I have a hard time with that part too. However that is why we live in a civilization that has laws. You are mixing religion with government.

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:15:39am

re: #113 MandyManners

Huh? Linky please?

147 psyop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:16:32am

re: #136 ploome hineni

I think he was merely trying to point out that he understood the idea of separating the sin from the person (e.g. Hate the sin, love the sinner - in the context of forgiveness or Christ-like love).

That's what I got out of it, anyway.

148 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:16:47am

re: #122 Shug

I never thought of it that way. You're correct

I guess they just aren't that smart

What is more is that they expressly wish that a real holocaust takes place as opposed to the 'holohoax'

149 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:17:29am

re: #113 MandyManners

The ACLU is taking on one in Minneapolis.

* * * *
Finally the ACLU go after something in the USA that actually instructs its children members to commit jihad & murder the infidel.

I am grateful to the ACLU for this baby step to fight jihadists in Minneapolis taking public tax dollars to run an American madrassah.

150 solomonpanting  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:17:33am

re: #14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Telegenic? So he's a good looking moron?

You make the call.

151 summergurl  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:17:39am

re: #139 FurryOldGuyJeans

I find it so schizophrenic for people to hate those of the lineage of what Jesus was, a Jew.


Man I must be having a Jeremiah Wright moment - because I have sat in the pew for 47 years and have never heard I was supposed to hate Jews.

152 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #108 yma o hyd

I attempt to look at issues logically and rationally. When I was younger - and more naive- even having one parent who is a Holocaust survivor- I rationalized anti Semitism.

In this sense. I though it made sense that if one is raised an anti Semite - particularly in a rather isolated and illiterate world- they would become an anti Semite. I almost saw the anti Semite as a victim of his/her upbringing and environment.

When I got online in the early 90's, I initially had this crazy idea that the Internet would be the end of anti Semitism. If you could communicate with anyone, people who had no clue about Jews, just had crazy ideas, would learn first hand, by interaction and such, that what they thought they knew was untrue.

Just the opposite happened. The Internet now spreads the most absurd stuff about Jews and it is absorbed by those who for some reason have a proclivity to believe the worst about Jews. Even if evidence is readily available to prove those are lies.

I now believe anti Semitism is some sort of a susceptible mental illness. I have no other explanation.

153 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:19:00am

re: #151 summergurl

Man I must be having a Jeremiah Wright moment - because I have sat in the pew for 47 years and have never heard I was supposed to hate Jews.


I can say that I never heard it either.

154 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:19:02am

re: #137 SlartyBartfast

I thought the same thing for this reason: the WWII veterans who actually saw the death camps are disappearing. Eventually, the children of those veterans (like me) will be gone and holocaust affirmation may be likened to hearsay testimony.

Are the children of those men making voice/video recordings of their fathers' recollections?

155 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:19:19am

re: #139 FurryOldGuyJeans

I find it so schizophrenic for people to hate those of the lineage of what Jesus was, a Jew.

Don't forget that probably since Constantine Jesus' Jewishness didn't play a role, and that later, in the Middle Ages, it was not just forgotten, but wiped out - while the Jews were accused of 'murdering' Him.
Later, after the Enlightenment, people preferred to look at Jesus as someone who was so totally different from humanity generally that His Jewishness didn't even enter the equation.

It has been to the grave detriment of Christian Faith that Jesus' deep roots in Jewish theology, in Jewish life, His total being as a Jew, had been obliterated for so long.

156 jcbunga  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:19:20am

The One encourages us to pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off.

Off to the Flat Earth Argument!

157 Westward Ho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:19:50am

re: #131 Killgore Trout

That takes a stupendous level of intellectual contortionism, normal heads would explode.

158 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:20:22am

re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Huh? Linky please?

I read it here over the past few days. Give me a few minutes to find it.

159 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:20:24am

re: #124 yma o hyd

Agreed. Christianity (of many different denominations) historically has had some major issues over Jew hatred.


re: #136 ploome hineni

that is so sick

it is not up to you to forgive......it is up to the PERSON HARMED/DEAD TO FORGIVE

or for his god to forgive

why should YOU push yourself into this?

It's also not really up to me to condemn someone either. I really don't see a reason to dwell on horrible acts committed by people--I may not ever trust them, but what's done is done.

160 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:20:39am

re: #152 Opinionated

I attempt to look at issues logically and rationally. When I was younger - and more naive- even having one parent who is a Holocaust survivor- I rationalized anti Semitism.

In this sense. I though it made sense that if one is raised an anti Semite - particularly in a rather isolated and illiterate world- they would become an anti Semite. I almost saw the anti Semite as a victim of his/her upbringing and environment.

When I got online in the early 90's, I initially had this crazy idea that the Internet would be the end of anti Semitism. If you could communicate with anyone, people who had no clue about Jews, just had crazy ideas, would learn first hand, by interaction and such, that what they thought they knew was untrue.

Just the opposite happened. The Internet now spreads the most absurd stuff about Jews and it is absorbed by those who for some reason have a proclivity to believe the worst about Jews. Even if evidence is readily available to prove those are lies.

I now believe anti Semitism is some sort of a susceptible mental illness. I have no other explanation.

I think it is institutionalized in the Koran. "Kill a Jew wherever you can find one."

161 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:20:51am

re: #104 Opinionated

As a Jew, I can't explain any of the fallacious logic to explain anti Semitism.

I need an anti Semite to rationally attempt to explain to me why they hate me for being Jewish.

First of all, anti- semites are tribalists. They don't see you as an individual but as the group they have chosen for you. As surely as yin needs yang, tribalists need a good/ bad grouping sysem to make sense of their world. Too often, the US and Israel are placed into the "bad" category.

162 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:21:30am

re: #114 BryanS

Ohh...everyone else rapes children too. I feel much better now.

* * *
Asshole.

Female genital mutilation and ritual abuse of boys are rights of passage in many moslem cultures and madrassahs. Over 4,000 Americans have died battling this ideology we are fighting this very minute, while you bash Catholics gone wrong.

I abhor Catholics or anyone who abuse children, but jihadists do it with impunity and they're bringing it here EXPLICITLY as part of their "culture" and "faith".

163 NYCHardhat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:21:58am

Great news

164 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:22:04am

re: #161 gman

First of all, anti- semites are tribalists. They don't see you as an individual but as the group they have chosen for you. As surely as yin needs yang, tribalists need a good/ bad grouping sysem to make sense of their world. Too often, the US and Israel are placed into the "bad" category.

Someone just wrote a column on this - it is God hatred at it's core - someone who is holding you to account.

165 abolitionist  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:22:40am

re: #69 _RememberTonyC

[Link: christianactionforisrael.org...]

Martin Luther King on anti Zionism ... a great read.

At bottom:

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

I'm curious. Anyone here know who the anti-Zionist friend was?

166 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:23:04am

re: #43 opnion

To strip Jews of any humanity, period.

167 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:23:35am

Part of the problem as I see it is that the ROP became the darlings of Left wing academices & others after 9/11. You know, 'Why do the hate us/" & ward Chrchill with 'Little Eichmans"
Well who do Muslims hate the most? Why, Jews! Therefore the Loony left sees Jews as guilty.

168 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:23:47am

re: #162 alegrias

* * *
Asshole.

Female genital mutilation and ritual abuse of boys are rights of passage in many moslem cultures and madrassahs. Over 4,000 Americans have died battling this ideology we are fighting this very minute, while you bash Catholics gone wrong.

I abhor Catholics or anyone who abuse children, but jihadists do it with impunity and they're bringing it here EXPLICITLY as part of their "culture" and "faith".

Well, I wasn't the one that posited an argument mitigating child rape by Catholic clergy by pointing out others do it too.

169 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:23:53am

re: #162 alegrias

* * *
Asshole.

Female genital mutilation and ritual abuse of boys are rights of passage in many moslem cultures and madrassahs. Over 4,000 Americans have died battling this ideology we are fighting this very minute, while you bash Catholics gone wrong.

I abhor Catholics or anyone who abuse children, but jihadists do it with impunity and they're bringing it here EXPLICITLY as part of their "culture" and "faith".

Ws it micheal totten or yon that wrote about seeing a line of men in Afghanistan - waiting their turn to go into a tent to rape a boy? Does anyone else remember this? About 2 years ago?

170 jcbunga  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:24:32am

OT but a goodie:

Another plane load of troops is coming home tonight. Off to BWI to greet them this evening.

Anyone in the greater DC/Baltimore area who would like to take part, it's great. Just a bunch of plain folks and Patriots coming together to be there for them at the gate.

[Link: www.operationwelcomehomemd.org...]

171 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:24:39am

re: #165 abolitionist

I'm curious. Anyone here know who the anti-Zionist friend was?

Jesse Jackson Sr.
/

172 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:24:46am

re: #167 opnion

Part of the problem as I see it is that the ROP became the darlings of Left wing academices & others after 9/11. You know, 'Why do the hate us/" & ward Chrchill with 'Little Eichmans"
Well who do Muslims hate the most? Why, Jews! Therefore the Loony left sees Jews as guilty.

Do you think the left now is asking why we hate them? Do you think they are reflecting on their own failures to make freinds with the Republicans?

173 solomonpanting  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:25:28am

Weber is an equal opportunity hater:

" l'm concerned about the future of (the white) race and I'm concerned about the future of our country." He also warned against America's becoming "a sort of Mexicanized, Puerto Ricanized country.... I don't believe it's possible for Black Americans to be assimilated into white society."

174 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:25:29am
175 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:25:40am

re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Huh? Linky please?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Hat-tip: Sharmuta

176 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:25:47am

re: #166 vagabond trader

To strip Jews of any humanity, period.

Dehumanization makes hate much easier.

177 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:25:59am

re: #111 Opinionated

There are Jews and there are Jews. Emanuel is so far a mystery. Axelrod does not think of himself as a Jew.

I wonder if Emanuel and Axlerod are throwbacks to the Trotskyists described in an excerpt from "They Knew They Were Right":

At the turn of the twentieth century, Jews, overrepresented in left-wing and revolutionary movements, intent on creating a utopia, went on the attack against capitalism and imperialism. As one Yiddish newspaper put it, "With hatred, with a three-fold curse, we must weave the shroud for the Russian autocratic government, for the entire anti-Semitic criminal gang, for the entire capitalist world."

178 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:26:02am

re: #104 Opinionated

You won't find a rational explanation, because the concept in and of itself is irrational - as is racism. Before someone on a stalker site gets their panties in a bunch and screams "but you hate someone for their religion, meaning Islam" I say no, I do not. I hate what is done in the name of that religion - the killing of others, the oppression, the violence I can point too, the FACTS about the religion support my view. If someone came to me who was Muslim and genuinely disavowed all of those things, who really didn't feel it necessary to kill me for being an infidel, I would welcome that person.

179 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:26:07am
180 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:26:32am

re: #152 Opinionated

it is something which I find puzzling and deeply disturbing as well.
One reason might be the prevalent but not publicised anti-semitism of the left, from Marx down the ages. And we all know that that aprticular mindset is not open to rational exchange.
Another, in the present, might be because of the successful propaganda coming from the Ummah - not just in regard to 'Palestine'.

It is hugely irrational, thus, as you say, a form of mental illness.

It is also, in my eyes, a sign of loss of one's humanity.

I've once seen a Nazi propaganda film - can't remember the name - in which in clever pictures Polish Ghetto Jews were shown as equal to rats.
I never forgot that - if one can deny the common humanity of another person, one has had to deny or suppress it in oneself.

I could go further and say that it is basically a denial of God Himself - but that arguemtn would lead OT!

181 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:27:07am

re: #173 solomonpanting

Weber is an equal opportunity hater:

The white issues is the least of his problems - there is a demographic winter coming, and our government is embracing the Unrestrained Vision of government as defined by Dr Sowell.

182 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:27:42am

re: #131 Killgore Trout

It the same reason 9-11 conspiracies are so popular in the Muslim world. It's a very odd phenomenon. I think it comes from the fact that they realize they support a morally reprehensible action. This way they can simultaneously be happy it happened and rationalize that they aren't guilty.

* * **
Good explanation.

Like schizophrenic illiterate history-delusional Qaddafy saying why not relocate Jewish people to Hawaii or Alaska, since "they aren't Arabs & therefore don't belong in the Middle East."

BBC and liberals and Global Jihad-deniers believe these kinds of schizophrenic ideas.

As if Joseph, Mary & Jesus' exploits took place in Honolulu back in the day!

183 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:01am

re: #164 DistantThunder

Someone just wrote a column on this - it is God hatred at it's core - someone who is holding you to account.

I think it's even more basic than that. It's intellectual immaturity

184 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:08am

re: #160 DistantThunder

I think it is institutionalized in the Koran. "Kill a Jew wherever you can find one."

It is indeed - and we forget that at our peril.

185 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:15am

re: #172 DistantThunder

Do you think the left now is asking why we hate them? Do you think they are reflecting on their own failures to make freinds with the Republicans?

Nah, they're riding high now. They consider themselves our intellectual superiors. Why reach out to us knuckle draggers?

186 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:23am

re: #178 ArmyWife

You won't find a rational explanation, because the concept in and of itself is irrational - as is racism. Before someone on a stalker site gets their panties in a bunch and screams "but you hate someone for their religion, meaning Islam" I say no, I do not. I hate what is done in the name of that religion - the killing of others, the oppression, the violence I can point too, the FACTS about the religion support my view. If someone came to me who was Muslim and genuinely disavowed all of those things, who really didn't feel it necessary to kill me for being an infidel, I would welcome that person.

It's not rational but they do have a rationale.

187 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:27am
188 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:48am

re: #165 abolitionist

I'm curious. Anyone here know who the anti-Zionist friend was?

Current opinion is that there was no such letter but it still manifests the opinions of MLK Jr as stated in a speech he gave.

[Link: www.jewish-history.com...]

189 akak  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:28:53am

The Pope is good at rehabilitation of these deniers...........supposedly.

190 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:29:31am

re: #162 alegrias

* * *
Asshole.

Female genital mutilation and ritual abuse of boys are rights of passage in many moslem cultures and madrassahs. Over 4,000 Americans have died battling this ideology we are fighting this very minute, while you bash Catholics gone wrong.

I abhor Catholics or anyone who abuse children, but jihadists do it with impunity and they're bringing it here EXPLICITLY as part of their "culture" and "faith".

More - the law enforcing and social agencies turn a blind eye, because 'its their culture'!

191 psyop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:29:33am

re: #174 ploome hineni

hate the sin, and see if the sinner is truly repentant

and makes retribution to the sinned against

........................if GOD wants to love the sinner, that is his job

I am required to

NOT DO unto to others, that which is ABHORRENT to me

I would say "If only the whole world thought like that, the world would be a much better place", but it seems there are too many people out there that do not find certain evil, despicable things abhorrent.

But you do make an excellent point.

192 rightymouse  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:30:26am

re: #131 Killgore Trout

It the same reason 9-11 conspiracies are so popular in the Muslim world. It's a very odd phenomenon. I think it comes from the fact that they realize they support a morally reprehensible action. This way they can simultaneously be happy it happened and rationalize that they aren't guilty.

Agreed.
Right after the Beslan school massacre, I happened to be at the local convenience store to buy cigs. The guy behind the counter was an Iraqi (turned out he was here illegally). When I made a comment about the horror of Beslan, he smirked and said emphatically "The Jews did it". I laughed at him. After I picked my jaw up off the floor.

193 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:30:29am

re: #185 opnion

Nah, they're riding high now. They consider themselves our intellectual superiors. Why reach out to us knuckle draggers?

Why do Muslims hate America?
Lib answer: It is because of what we've done to them.

Why do Republicans hate Democrats?
Lib answer: Because they are haters.

It's amazing that they can walk and chew gum.

194 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:01am

re: #172 DistantThunder

Do you think the left now is asking why we hate them? Do you think they are reflecting on their own failures to make freinds with the Republicans?

Why reflect when you can have a grade school tantrum while proclaiming "I won!"

195 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:15am

re: #180 yma o hyd


I've once seen a Nazi propaganda film - can't remember the name - in which in clever pictures Polish Ghetto Jews were shown as equal to rats.

Der Ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew)

196 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:33am

If a "Zionist" is attacked in Canada, and no one is around to hear it, is it still anti-semitism?

(h/t: Jawa Report)

197 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:44am

re: #132 ploome hineni

no he did not

he volunteered for something, but not the army

* * * *
Rahm Emanuel was fierce alright--He volunteered to wear tights and dance with Joffrey Ballet! Like Ronald Reagan's MSNBC-besotted son Ronnie Jr.

Take no prisoners, primo ballerinos!

198 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:51am

re: #182 alegrias

* * **
Good explanation.

Like schizophrenic illiterate history-delusional Qaddafy saying why not relocate Jewish people to Hawaii or Alaska, since "they aren't Arabs & therefore don't belong in the Middle East."

BBC and liberals and Global Jihad-deniers believe these kinds of schizophrenic ideas.

As if Joseph, Mary & Jesus' exploits took place in Honolulu back in the day!

Sort of off topic. Call me on it for splitting hairs, but there has been a number of time that the word "schizophrenic" has been used on this thread. Schizophrenic does not mean a dual mindset or holding dual images of oneself.

The term you are looking for is Multiple Personality Disorder or Dual Personality Disorder.

199 psyop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:53am

re: #193 DistantThunder

That nearly caused a spit-take.

Fortunately, my coffee remained in my mouth.....

200 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:32:21am

Sorry to digress. ShamWow Vince is on selling something called the Slap Chop. It chops stuff , duh!
I am not making this up, he took out some cashews & said'Your gonna love my nuts."

201 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:32:22am

re: #194 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why reflect when you can have a grade school tantrum while proclaiming "I won!"

Rivaling Jimmy Carter for the most ungracious president.

The End of Graciousness.

202 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:32:48am

re: #175 MandyManners

Thanks!

LIB.

203 Kaymad  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:32:51am

Holocaust deniers never had a chance to begin with, except in the Arab countries. I've visited Dachau and oddly enough, this morning I opened my e-mail to find pictures that my husband sent me of his trip to Dachau (he's working in Germany right now). I was there about 15 years ago and the crematoriums weren't open for viewing at that time, but they are now and he took quite a few pictures.

They had a film before the tour of Dachau and there is plenty of photographic evidence, not to mention the 2 tons of records that the Nazis so meticulously kept and were used at the Nuremberg trials. In fact, I've read the Germans are still releasing records, I wonder how much was captured by the Soviets that we'll never see?

204 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:33:17am

re: #176 opnion

Dehumanization makes hate much easier.

Can you have one without the other?

205 DistantThunder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:33:25am

re: #197 alegrias

* * * *
Rahm Emanuel was fierce alright--He volunteered to wear tights and dance with Joffrey Ballet! Like Ronald Reagan's MSNBC-besotted son Ronnie Jr.

Take no prisoners, primo ballerinos!

Anyone who is known for their tirades is on my Predator-Thug-Bully list.

206 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:33:49am

re: #135 Truck Monkey

Arabs living in Israel have more rights guaranteed by their Jewish Government than they would have if they lived in the arab world. I am proud to say that my FIL was one of those who helped make that desert bloom oh so many years ago.

* * *
God bless you father in law for bringing blooms, democracy & new life to the Middle East, as our troops are doing with their lives & sacrifices, with US tax support until now.

207 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:34:13am

re: #182 alegrias

* * **
Good explanation.

Like schizophrenic illiterate history-delusional Qaddafy saying why not relocate Jewish people to Hawaii or Alaska, since "they aren't Arabs & therefore don't belong in the Middle East."

BBC and liberals and Global Jihad-deniers believe these kinds of schizophrenic ideas.

As if Joseph, Mary & Jesus' exploits took place in Honolulu back in the day!

Honolulu - wow, didn't know that the Romans got there as well ...

///

Just shows how utterly a-historical these people are. And they think we ought to look up to them!

208 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:35:02am

re: #204 MandyManners

Can you have one without the other?

Not really, because your human nature would rebel.

209 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:36:03am

re: #109 alegrias

Don't delude yourself that only Catholics abuse children please.

A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of Catholics. Pedophiles can be any denomination of religion or culture. Percentage wise, I bet you will find muslims hold the dubious record of being the worst.

210 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:36:13am

re: #203 Kaymad

Holocaust deniers never had a chance to begin with, except in the Arab countries. I've visited Dachau and oddly enough, this morning I opened my e-mail to find pictures that my husband sent me of his trip to Dachau (he's working in Germany right now). I was there about 15 years ago and the crematoriums weren't open for viewing at that time, but they are now and he took quite a few pictures.

They had a film before the tour of Dachau and there is plenty of photographic evidence, not to mention the 2 tons of records that the Nazis so meticulously kept and were used at the Nuremberg trials. In fact, I've read the Germans are still releasing records, I wonder how much was captured by the Soviets that we'll never see?

And there's this.

211 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:36:33am

re: #195 Opinionated

Der Ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew)

Thanks - I'd forgotten that title.

Churned my stomach.
Good thing that the arabs are not (yet) quite as good as Goebbels was ...

212 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:36:41am

Kids need to be taught that there is hard evidence of the Holocaust. There are human remains, there are the traces of the gas, there are human skin lampshades.

They also need to hear the stories so that it touches the inner human core of them.

As a historian* it offends me to have history so denied and twisted.

*I used to just say I majored in history in college, as I think that's a big title, but at 38 I'm tired of sounding like I'm home on semester break.

213 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:36:47am

re: #203 Kaymad

Holocaust deniers never had a chance to begin with, except in the Arab countries. I've visited Dachau and oddly enough, this morning I opened my e-mail to find pictures that my husband sent me of his trip to Dachau (he's working in Germany right now). I was there about 15 years ago and the crematoriums weren't open for viewing at that time, but they are now and he took quite a few pictures.

They had a film before the tour of Dachau and there is plenty of photographic evidence, not to mention the 2 tons of records that the Nazis so meticulously kept and were used at the Nuremberg trials. In fact, I've read the Germans are still releasing records, I wonder how much was captured by the Soviets that we'll never see?

No, they put all that stuff there to fool you.
/

You point out what is so obvious, but never to a holocaust denier. I've seen the evidence myself, on location. For a matter of fact, I've seen some archive not open to the general public.

It would have to be the biggest conspiracy in the history of the world if anyone can say that this was all stage, faked or not on the scale it was.

I think the word "denier" is interesting because I don't think any of these nuts don't think it happened, but they have no problem with willfully denying it.

214 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:21am

re: #192 rightymouse

Agreed.
Right after the Beslan school massacre, I happened to be at the local convenience store to buy cigs. The guy behind the counter was an Iraqi (turned out he was here illegally). When I made a comment about the horror of Beslan, he smirked and said emphatically "The Jews did it". I laughed at him. After I picked my jaw up off the floor.

I would've given him an earful. Then, I would've called his boss or the owner (assuming he was neither) and let him have it in a much more polite manner.

215 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:23am

re: #196 gmsc

Yes, the silence has been very telling. What is equally troubling are self loathing Jews who sympathize with haters.

216 abolitionist  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:33am

re: #165 abolitionist

Most of my search results so far are indicating King's letter to a friend was a hoax, or mostly a hoax, with some truth truth embedded in it. Two links:
[Link: www.jewish-history.com...]
[Link: yidwithlid.blogspot.com...]

Still looking...

217 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:39am

re: #153 opnion

I was raised Catholic - I never once heard that I was supposed to hate Jews. In fact it was just the opposite, which is why the news coming out of the Vatican is just mind boggling.

FWIW, my husband is Jewish.

218 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:51am
If a "Zionist" is attacked in Canada, and no one is around to hear it, is it still anti-semitism?

(h/t: Jawa Report)

Don't know...what does the CHRC think about it?

219 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:52am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

From dictionary.reference.com:

schiz⋅o⋅phre⋅ni⋅a
   /ˌskɪtsəˈfriniə, -ˈfrinyə/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skit-suh-free-nee-uh, -freen-yuh] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Psychiatry. Also called dementia praecox. a severe mental disorder characterized by some, but not necessarily all, of the following features: emotional blunting, intellectual deterioration, social isolation, disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, and hallucinations.
2. a state characterized by the coexistence of contradictory or incompatible elements.
Origin:
1910–15; schizo- + -phrenia
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


schiz·o·phren·ic (skĭt'sə-frěn'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or affected with schizophrenia.
2. Of, relating to, or characterized by the coexistence of disparate or antagonistic elements.

n. One who is affected with schizophrenia.
schiz'o·phren'i·cal·ly adv.

Reference 2 in both definitions is the operative usage. Plus reference 1 in the first definition regarding disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, and hallucinations might also apply.

220 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:37:58am

re: #209 Racer X

A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of Catholics. Pedophiles can be any denomination of religion or culture. Percentage wise, I bet you will find muslims hold the dubious record of being the worst.

They do not even see a problem. The prophet took a six year old wife & cosumated at age nine. They see it as just fine.

221 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:38:05am
222 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:38:23am

re: #137 SlartyBartfast

I thought the same thing for this reason: the WWII veterans who actually saw the death camps are disappearing. Eventually, the children of those veterans (like me) will be gone and holocaust affirmation may be likened to hearsay testimony.

* * * *
General Eisenhower demanded films be made of the liberation of concentration camps so there would be NO DOUBT what the butchers did.

One of General McCarthur's nephews helped liberate some concentration camp. The old man wept and made me cry, while retelling that experience, circa 1996 or early 1997.

Any American who persists denying what our own beloved, trusted, victorious WWII military leaders said about their OWN experience upon liberating concentration camps in enemy territory, is an idiot not worthy of his country.

223 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:39:12am

re: #212 EmmmieG

Kids need to be taught that there is hard evidence of the Holocaust. There are human remains, there are the traces of the gas, there are human skin lampshades.

They also need to hear the stories so that it touches the inner human core of them.

As a historian* it offends me to have history so denied and twisted.

*I used to just say I majored in history in college, as I think that's a big title, but at 38 I'm tired of sounding like I'm home on semester break.

We teach the Holocaust in my district. I've shown clips of this to my students.

224 Opinionated  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:39:14am

re: #211 yma o hyd


Good thing that the arabs are not (yet) quite as good as Goebbels was ...

The Arabs have an advantage that the Nazis would envy.

They produce in Pallywood and it gets distributed by CNN and the BBC and too may other "legitimate" sources.

225 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:39:35am

re: #211 yma o hyd

yma, the Arab world is very adept at Jew hate propaganda.

[Link: images.google.com...]

226 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:39:42am

re: #217 ArmyWife

I was raised Catholic - I never once heard that I was supposed to hate Jews. In fact it was just the opposite, which is why the news coming out of the Vatican is just mind boggling.

FWIW, my husband is Jewish.

I went to Catholic schools. My problem was the nuns & brothers whacking me. I did not hear anything anti Jewish.

227 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:39:48am

re: #221 ploome hineni

Agreed.

See #220

228 pingjockey  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:39:57am

Frakkin' assholes. I swear just when you think humans can't get any stupider, along come Khadaffy and neonazis and all the human detrious that believes this crap.

229 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:41:11am
230 Van Helsing  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:41:21am

re: #211 yma o hyd

Good thing that the arabs are not (yet) quite as good as Goebbels was ...

They don't need to be. They have AP, AFP, Reuters and all the others to polish it up for them.

231 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:42:05am

re: #217 ArmyWife

lol, I'm the Jew, hubby is ex Catholic.

232 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:42:08am

re: #142 ploome hineni

no

but they keeeeeeeeel you if you stray
islam does not give you freedom to leave

* * *
Just like the Nazis.

Ughh. Both revolting human developments.

233 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:42:46am

re: #218 BryanS

Don't know...what does the CHRC think about it?

I wasn't aware the CHRC had started thinking.

234 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:42:51am

Abu Grahib Prison is being turned over to the Iraqis. It will be renamed Baghdad Central or something. No more pantys on heads.
Prisoners will be treated really respectfully now. Problem solved.

235 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:42:53am
236 rightymouse  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:43:04am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Sort of off topic. Call me on it for splitting hairs, but there has been a number of time that the word "schizophrenic" has been used on this thread. Schizophrenic does not mean a dual mindset or holding dual images of oneself.

The term you are looking for is Multiple Personality Disorder or Dual Personality Disorder.


Thank you. Have been meaning to address this myself. Bless you.

237 Kaymad  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:43:07am

Just wondering if anyone has read 'Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust' by Daniel Goldhagen? One thing that has always bugged me and the author must have felt the same way, is how easily the German public in general is let off the hook. The holocaust is mostly pinned on the SS and Hitler. The book can be a little dry, it's the authors dissertation, but I think he proves that the German people were completely aware and supportive of what was happening to the Jews.

238 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:43:26am

re: #220 opnion

They do not even see a problem. The prophet took a six year old wife & cosumated at age nine. They see it as just fine.

Didn't their calendar make her five and eight, respectively?

239 pingjockey  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:43:54am

BTW, when did Pat Buchanan lose his mind? In the last 10 years or so? Or is a recent development?

240 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:44:40am

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

From dictionary.reference.com:

Reference 2 in both definitions is the operative usage. Plus reference 1 in the first definition regarding disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, and hallucinations might also apply.

I know what it is, but the way it was being used above was indicating that a person will say one thing about something and then the next minute, just the opposite.

A schizophrenic has a very defined world, for a matter of fact, sometimes a world that is more real than our actual world. But rarely does a schizophrenic contradict themselves, as a person with MPD would.

For a schizophrenic, their world become more and more defined as the sickness progresses, up to the point where it is almost impossible to separate them from it any longer.

The big difference here is a MPD patient can have many contradicting episodes, depending on which personality is taking the forefront at the moment.

241 Van Helsing  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:44:47am

re: #218 BryanS

Don't know...what does the CHRC think about it?

Nothing. It's not a human rights violation if you're not on the official list of protected humans.

242 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:45:08am

re: #238 MandyManners

Didn't their calendar make her five and eight, respectively?

i THOUGHT 6 & 9 , BUT YOU MAY BE RIGHT.

243 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:45:09am

re: #239 pingjockey

BTW, when did Pat Buchanan lose his mind? In the last 10 years or so? Or is a recent development?

His mind was always missing. He just used to be better at hiding that fact. Now he feels no need to hide it.

244 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:45:32am

re: #236 rightymouse

Thank you. Have been meaning to address this myself. Bless you.

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

And I go into more detail in my re: #240 Walter L. Newton

245 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:45:33am

re: #224 Opinionated

The Arabs have an advantage that the Nazis would envy.

They produce in Pallywood and it gets distributed by CNN and the BBC and too may other "legitimate" sources.

True - but that, as we have seen, is open to de-bunking. They are still dealing with facts.

Something like the visual images produced in that film work on a much deeper level, and are not easy to de-bunk. They are touching sub-conscious emotions and equate something people find disgusting - like those wriggling rats - with people. It works by implication and emotion. Its not factual. Thats the trouble.

246 Daisy  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:46:11am

"But in his essay, Weber calls for his movement to shift to a new mission, one more purely directed to fighting against “Jewish-Zionist power.” "

God help us.

247 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:46:25am

re: #221 ploome hineni

for me, pedophelia is not the issue regarding the Church

the crime is how the CHurch handled decades of pedophelia and sexual abuse, and ignored and continued to damage thousands of victims

Like Watergate, it wasn't the crime but the cover-up?

248 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:46:40am

re: #229 ploome hineni

as a child, when I first learned of the Holocaust..I couldn;t beieve it

I thought is was made up...some wierd fake story

I don't remember when I first heard of it, but I vividly remember being in junior high and they brought in a survivor to talk to us. I remember sitting there in the library, listening, and feeling the room drop away and the reality of it hit me so hard. This woman had been there. She was real, and she had lived it.

Then I looked around and noticed a lot of my fellow students weren't listening. I was so offended. I was practically having a take-your-shoes-off-this-is-holy-ground moment, and they were passing notes.

I'm older now and cut them more slack; they were young.

249 rightymouse  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:46:44am

re: #214 MandyManners

I would've given him an earful. Then, I would've called his boss or the owner (assuming he was neither) and let him have it in a much more polite manner.


His boss (owner) wasn't there at the time. But believe me, the dude got his comeuppance. He hit his boss over the head with beer bottle and bossman beat the crap out of him. Dude wound up in jail for assault and then deported.

250 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:47:11am

The oldest hatred.

251 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:47:13am

re: #241 Van Helsing

Don't know...what does the CHRC think about it?

Nothing. It's not a human rights violation if you're not on the official list of protected humans.

How Orwellian...and how true.

252 esch  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:47:46am

re: #237 Kaymad

German culture has always had a rotten core. AFAIK, historically they started an awful lot of wars. The reich merely exploited it effectively.

And I say that as someone with a significant percentage of German blood. There's a reason my ancestors left.

253 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:48:22am

re: #225 vagabond trader

yma, the Arab world is very adept at Jew hate propaganda.

[Link: images.google.com...]

No doubt - thing is, we've seen that stuff before (take a bow, Julius Streicher - mind your head doesn't fall off!); its right out of the Nazi cartoon book.

What they are good at, better than Goebbels was, is indoctrinating their children. That is something I find unforgivable.

254 abolitionist  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:48:27am

From YID With LID, 15 Jan 09,

About six years ago, I was writing an article for Jewish World Review and quoted parts of the famous Martin Luther King Jr. Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend. Just as the article was about to run I got an e-mail from Editor-in-Chief Binyamin Jolkovsky informing me that the letter was a hoax, he sent me the article from CAMERA quoted below.

The bad news is that Binyamin was correct (he usually was). The good news is that Dr. King was a supporter of Israel and the Jewish people. That famous line from the letter "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.” was uttered by Dr King, just not any letter. Over the next few days you will read various posts containing the letter but you should remember, most of it does not contain the words of the great Civil Rights Leader. The good news however, is it does contain his sentiments.

[Link: yidwithlid.blogspot.com...]

255 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:49:02am

re: #247 MandyManners

Like Watergate, it wasn't the crime but the cover-up?


thats it. Cardinals, Bishops & Pastors abeted the crimes with cover ups.
We have friends, whose family was almost destroyed. On the bright side the priest went to jail.

256 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:49:54am

re: #239 pingjockey

BTW, when did Pat Buchanan lose his mind? In the last 10 years or so? Or is a recent development?

He has ALWAYS struck me as being a hateful bastard.

257 esch  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:49:56am

re: #253 yma o hyd

What they are good at, better than Goebbels was, is indoctrinating their children. That is something I find unforgivable.

Us too now, Y.

258 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:50:47am

re: #242 opnion

i THOUGHT 6 & 9 , BUT YOU MAY BE RIGHT.

Either way, it just ain't right.

259 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #168 BryanS

Well, I wasn't the one that posited an argument mitigating child rape by Catholic clergy by pointing out others do it too.

* * * *
Asshole. I do not "mitigate" crimes against children by anyone.
Islam promotes crimes against children as part of its doctrine, such as permitting "marriages" to 9 year olds. It is YOU who are trying to equate the crimes of a few perverts, with the doctrines of the Catholic church.

I'm not Catholic but don't appreciate your slandering the whole group of millions of them around the world, because of the crimes of some of them.

I'll take most groups over murderous jihadist global anti-infidel totalitarians anytime.

260 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:51:24am

re: #237 Kaymad

Just wondering if anyone has read 'Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust' by Daniel Goldhagen? One thing that has always bugged me and the author must have felt the same way, is how easily the German public in general is let off the hook. The holocaust is mostly pinned on the SS and Hitler. The book can be a little dry, it's the authors dissertation, but I think he proves that the German people were completely aware and supportive of what was happening to the Jews.

A profound book
Goldhagen got a lot of flack for exposing the unvarnished truth.

261 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:51:38am

re: #249 rightymouse

His boss (owner) wasn't there at the time. But believe me, the dude got his comeuppance. He hit his boss over the head with beer bottle and bossman beat the crap out of him. Dude wound up in jail for assault and then deported.

Where was he from?

262 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:51:41am

re: #252 esch

German culture has always had a rotten core. AFAIK, historically they started an awful lot of wars. The reich merely exploited it effectively.

And I say that as someone with a significant percentage of German blood. There's a reason my ancestors left.

This reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Sideshow Bob escapes from jail and tries to kill Bart.

When he's caught, he tries to explain away all the evidence. When asked about his tattoo that says, "Die, Bart, Die!" He says, "Oh, that's just German. It means, 'The, Bart, The!" The policeman nod and accept this, with Chief Wiggum saying, "No one who speaks German could be a bad man."

263 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:52:01am

re: #247 MandyManners

Like Watergate, it wasn't the crime but the cover-up?

I agreed with ploome hineni's sentiment. To explain, the problem with the church was not that it had people in it that did bad things--and those crimes were indeed deplorable--but the church cannot be blamed for the acts of its individual members per se. The church is however responsible for its handling of the incident. And it was the Catholic church's behavior surrounding the events of child molestation that was deplorable.

264 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:52:09am

re: #155 yma o hyd

Don't forget that probably since Constantine Jesus' Jewishness didn't play a role, and that later, in the Middle Ages, it was not just forgotten, but wiped out - while the Jews were accused of 'murdering' Him.
Later, after the Enlightenment, people preferred to look at Jesus as someone who was so totally different from humanity generally that His Jewishness didn't even enter the equation.

It has been to the grave detriment of Christian Faith that Jesus' deep roots in Jewish theology, in Jewish life, His total being as a Jew, had been obliterated for so long.

With all due respect and admiration you do no favors to the last fifty years of rapprochement here. Why don't we

265 Van Helsing  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:52:24am

re: #245 yma o hyd

True - but that, as we have seen, is open to de-bunking. They are still dealing with facts.

The problem with that is the original story gets huge play, frontpage and prime airtime. Any debunking is relegated to (if it shows up at all) a very limited audience.

Once they lie is out, it's too damn late!

As an example, the flushed Koran in Gitmo lies. A bit late for a retraction when the riots, burning, and nun murdering are over.

Too late when it stirs up people in areas where our troops are deployed.

Just too damn late...
BTW, f*** Newsweek.

266 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #230 Van Helsing

Good thing that the arabs are not (yet) quite as good as Goebbels was ...

They don't need to be. They have AP, AFP, Reuters and all the others to polish it up for them.

Little club-footed Josef had to be good because there he had only a few outlets to spread his lies. Modern communications has allowed multiple outlets to spew the same crap, and lots of people see the multiple outlets spewing the same filth as what really is true.

267 rightymouse  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:52:38am

re: #261 MandyManners

Where was he from?

Iraq.

268 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:53:55am

re: #170 jcbunga

OT but a goodie:

Another plane load of troops is coming home tonight. Off to BWI to greet them this evening.

Anyone in the greater DC/Baltimore area who would like to take part, it's great. Just a bunch of plain folks and Patriots coming together to be there for them at the gate.

[Link: www.operationwelcomehomemd.org...]

* * *
Thank you for thanking our troops.

269 opnion  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:54:26am

re: #258 MandyManners

Either way, it just ain't right.


Primitive.

270 Kaymad  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:55:25am

re: #252 esch

My Great Great Grandfather was Jewish, converted to catholicism after marrying into a catholic family and left Germany for America with 2 of his brothers. I've always wondered what happened to his remaining family, they supposedly lived somewhere in Bavaria.

271 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:55:43am

re: #259 alegrias

* * * *
Asshole. I do not "mitigate" crimes against children by anyone.
Islam promotes crimes against children as part of its doctrine, such as permitting "marriages" to 9 year olds. It is YOU who are trying to equate the crimes of a few perverts, with the doctrines of the Catholic church.

I'm not Catholic but don't appreciate your slandering the whole group of millions of them around the world, because of the crimes of some of them.

I'll take most groups over murderous jihadist global anti-infidel totalitarians anytime.

re: #109 alegrias

Usually, a name caller reveals himself as the one who cannot make a reasoned argument simply by not being able to calmly state the facts. But since you clearly lack skills in reasoning and logic, let me remind you of what exactly you did say.


* * * *
Remember Madrassah schools are also places where children are violated by their mullah masters.

AND many American cities now have & welcome madrassah Islamic Saudi Academies by popular demand.

Obama attended an indonesian madrassah as a child.

Don't delude yourself that only Catholics abuse children please.

See, there it was.

272 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:56:18am

re: #252 esch

German culture has always had a rotten core. AFAIK, historically they started an awful lot of wars. The reich merely exploited it effectively.

And I say that as someone with a significant percentage of German blood. There's a reason my ancestors left.

Ahem - its not as if the other European Nations didn't start at least as many wars themselves ... especially France ... (yeah, ok, we weren't exactly innocents in great Britain either ...).
Thing is - they only had a very small number of what one could call warriors: Frederick the Great, General Bluecher, General Moltke ... thus they lost an awful lot of the wars they started.

273 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:56:29am

re: #221 ploome hineni

for me, pedophelia is not the issue regarding the Church

the crime is how the CHurch handled decades of pedophelia and sexual abuse, and ignored and continued to damage thousands of victims

I would have to disagree with you, courteously, that pedophilia is not the issue. Because it was ignored and tacitly approved of, what was the crime of a few became the bigger and much worse crime of the whole institution.

As Mandy so astutely pointed out it wasn't the break in and burglary at the Watergate hotel that brought down Nixon, it was the cover-up.

274 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:58:06am

I'm watching again the documentary I posted above.

I NEVER want to hear that we tortured anyone. I NEVER want to here that we run concentration camps.

275 sffilk  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:58:14am

re: #9 Nevergiveup

I guess the Pope didn't get the memo?

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Why am I not surprised?

276 esch  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:59:02am

re: #272 yma o hyd

Ahem - its not as if the other European Nations didn't start at least as many wars themselves ... especially France ... (yeah, ok, we weren't exactly innocents in great Britain either ...).
Thing is - they only had a very small number of what one could call warriors: Frederick the Great, General Bluecher, General Moltke ... thus they lost an awful lot of the wars they started.

Absolutely. I defer to someone who knows more about it.

It is telling how willing the average serfs were to go to war, though.

277 Daisy  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:00:40am

re: #9 Nevergiveup

I guess the Pope didn't get the memo?

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I have to confess that I'm a little bewildered about the heavy emphasis on Catholic wrongdoing during the Holocaust. Germany was - and is - a predominantly Lutheran country. Have the Lutherans, or any other religious body, ever apologized for their lack of response/complicity in the Holocaust? I ask this, not to provoke an argument (and say 'good luck' to myself as I write those true words) but seriously, because I would like to learn more about the subject.

One thought: perhaps because of the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church, the Pope as head of the Church, may take more hits for a failure to respond, than Protestant leaders, who can, after all hide behind the fact that there is no such spokesperson for the multi-denominational Church body. I wonder? Or is a more basic prejudice operating? Or is it something else entirely?

278 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:01:15am

OT: Happy 25th Birthday, Macintosh!

Youtube Video
279 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:01:32am

re: #192 rightymouse

Agreed.
Right after the Beslan school massacre, I happened to be at the local convenience store to buy cigs. The guy behind the counter was an Iraqi (turned out he was here illegally). When I made a comment about the horror of Beslan, he smirked and said emphatically "The Jews did it". I laughed at him. After I picked my jaw up off the floor.

* * *
Righty Mouse,
I appreciate your sharing this, but why didn't you punch this antisemite in the mouth or at least have some balls to refute this blood libel, or to report this horrible employee's awful customer service? Because you needed the nicotine fix from the creep's cigarettes more than to stand up for yourself & for innocent Jewish people?

280 Kaymad  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:01:44am

re: #263 BryanS

I wonder if any of those people lied about molestation just for the big payout? I'm NOT suggesting that molestation did not take place at all...but basically it seemed as though whoever came forward was believed with no supporting evidence except their word. I'm not talking about NOT believing children, I'm talking about many adults coming forward and being paid quite a sum of money.

281 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:02:18am

re: #274 goddessoftheclassroom

Those charges make my blood boil. To me it is not only hatred of country, but often covert Jew hate. Another way to diminish my history.

282 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:02:19am

Hmm. Lot of Catholic-bashing going on here, it seems. Maybe we need a little corrective.

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts...

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Therefore we Christians, in turn, are obliged not to tolerate their wanton and conscious blasphemy.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...

Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

283 Buck  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:02:21am

There is a lot of evidence located in the International Tracing Service archives at Bad Arolsen.
16 miles of shelves holding the stories of 17 million victims – not only Jews, but slave laborers, political prisoners and homosexuals.
This archive has been kept secret, and not opened to historians since the war. It has only been opened in the past year or so.

It might take time, but all the undeniable evidence for the holocaust is there, and will be revealed in detail.
60 Minutes did a fantastic show on this.

284 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:03:34am

re: #277 Daisy

It's probably because as you say there is a hierarchy and thus it is easier to identify an accountable leader. Even though there are other denominations, the Pope is often viewed as the voice of Christianity--especially by the non-Christian world.

285 sffilk  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:04:39am

re: #40 jaunte

Deniers are experiencing a pragmatic split in how best to make use of the Holocaust for their own ends.
For some in the Middle East, it's more useful to have "A New Holocaust" rhetoric as a bludgeon with which to accuse Israel, so they can't logically continue to deny it. (Of course that doesn't stop some from the logical disconnect)
The European branch is now more concerned with expelling Muslims from their countries, so they're toning Holocaust denial down in favor of an 'everyone back to your own land' approach, which requires them to recognize Israel.

Oh? Didn't hear about this!

286 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:06:10am

...look forward?re: #282 Cato the Elder


Is your point to add protestant bashing to the equation?

287 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:06:44am

re: #280 Kaymad

I wonder if any of those people lied about molestation just for the big payout? I'm NOT suggesting that molestation did not take place at all...but basically it seemed as though whoever came forward was believed with no supporting evidence except their word. I'm not talking about NOT believing children, I'm talking about many adults coming forward and being paid quite a sum of money.

I'm sure that did happen--that is at least some of the accusations were false, especially after the issue became front and center in the public view. However, I am more worried about shuffling offenders around from place to place multiple times as the same offense was allowed to recur.

288 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:06:56am

re: #285 sffilk

Oh? Didn't hear about this!

Well, you have now, what do you think about it?

289 rightymouse  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:07:47am

re: #279 alegrias

* * *
Righty Mouse,
I appreciate your sharing this, but why didn't you punch this antisemite in the mouth or at least have some balls to refute this blood libel, or to report this horrible employee's awful customer service? Because you needed the nicotine fix from the creep's cigarettes more than to stand up for yourself & for innocent Jewish people?

I reported him to my cop friend at the local police station. He told me that they knew all about him and had been watching him. Fair enough?

290 vagabond trader  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:08:50am

re: #283 Buck

There already is an abundance of evidence. If there are still those who require more proof, fuggem, they can kiss my Jew butt.

291 Daisy  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:12:02am

re: #282 Cato the Elder

Well, I knew the old rebel was an anti-Semite, but didn't know the extent of his delusions. That helped. Thanks.

292 Ron Shaw  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:12:37am

Maybe it's too optimistic but possibly now we can begin to at least hope to see the Global Warmers come to their senses. With luck, more of them will begin to open their eyes and ears to reality!

IMHO, Global Warming is as farcical as holocaust denial, 9-11 Truthers, anti-evolution kooks and those who continue to deny there is any liberal bias within the MSM.

293 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:12:39am

re: #276 esch

Absolutely. I defer to someone who knows more about it.

It is telling how willing the average serfs were to go to war, though.

Well - most of them didn't have much choice, see the Russian Army in WWI.

Mind - there seems to be a special mental attitude in Germany, or was, don't want to diss the new post-war generation - which has been noted by other nations (yeah, France, quel surprise, and GB). Its called something like 'untertan spirit'. I think a German writer wrote a novel about this which was made into a film with Marlene Dietrich.
Basically, it means they do what an official says, without question.
Something a Frenchman would never do!

294 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:12:43am

re: #21 Charles

Weber is part of a circle of paleo-conservatives that includes the Council of Conservative Citizens, the racialists of Jared Taylor and Vdare, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, the Robert Taft Club, and a bunch of other far-right groups.

Aw shucks, you left out that "race realist" dude whose name anagrams to A CURRENT WEASEL -- why should Weber and Taylor have all the ego-Googling fun?

295 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:13:22am

re: #286 experiencedtraveller

...look forward?

Is your point to add protestant bashing to the equation?

My point is to show that no one church in the long history of Christian Jew-hatred has a patent on vicious, disgusting rhetoric. And to point out that Luther's last bit about burning synagogues and books, prohibiting worship on pain of death, etc., was more than realized by majority-Protestant Germany in the 20th century.

296 Kaymad  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:14:51am

re: #277 Daisy
That's a great point. ALL denominations urged something be done with the Jews even before Hitler came to power. One Lutheran Bishop declared in 1933 that he had always been an antisemitic. You couldn't tell a difference between the Protestant press and the Nazis press. However, it's only catholics that are called out on it and I think there is some catholic bigotry involved in that.

I made an offhand comment to my brother-n-law not long ago about how there wasn't much anti-catholic sentiment anymore. He laughed and said growing up there were certain kids he wasn't allowed to play with because of his catholicism and in college his roommate told him not to mention the fact that he is catholic to his parents. He is an accountant and had a client pull his account when he found out his religion.

297 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:15:30am

The Judensau was carved into the walls of many Catholic and Lutheran churches throughout Europe starting in the 13th century and some can still be seen today.

298 Buck  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:16:01am

re: #282 Cato the Elder

Ya, in this respect, Martin Luther was quite the dick.

299 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:17:51am

re: #237 Kaymad

Just wondering if anyone has read 'Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust' by Daniel Goldhagen? One thing that has always bugged me and the author must have felt the same way, is how easily the German public in general is let off the hook. The holocaust is mostly pinned on the SS and Hitler. The book can be a little dry, it's the authors dissertation, but I think he proves that the German people were completely aware and supportive of what was happening to the Jews.

* * * *
Thanks for sharing this.

We have a similar phenomenon today where people know the facts of jihadist genocides & crimes against humanity but for ideological reasons, stifle themselves.

When Hamas murders Israelis, leftists ignore those deaths.
When Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge murdered millions, leftists ignored those deaths.

Recent case in point: Ted Turner was asked by Bill O'Reilly why Turner and his CNN didn't care about documenting Cambodians's holocausted by Pol Pot after liberals declared victory in Vietnam (victory for Ho Chi Min, their side's leader). We've all seen the still pictures of millions of skulls piled high.

Turner and his CNN news network didn't think there was interest in reporting that genocide story for some reason.

300 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #297 gman

The Judensau was carved into the walls of many Catholic and Lutheran churches throughout Europe starting in the 13th century and some can still be seen today.

Christianity (in all it's flavors) has been the biggest supporters of anti-semitism for centuries, period. It's not until the end of WWII that there has even been much study into this fact.

If anyone wants to know what kept anti-semitism alive for almost 2000 years, all they have to do is look to Christians.

301 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:18:56am

re: #277 Daisy

I think this is a very good point!

IIRC, the german Evangelical/Lutheran Church turned into a rabid Hitler-following organistaion.
The few Evangelicals who were deeply against this, formed something called the 'Bekennende Kirche'. They were persecuted and killed.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of them.
The Catholic Bishops - too late, but they actually did this - proclaimed against Hitler in some letters read in all churches. One famous one was the Bishop of Mnster, von Galen.

It was a bad situation though - this is a book I found dealt very well with these questions:
Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII (Paperback)
Disreagrd the title - its actually very good.

302 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:19:03am

re: #298 Buck

Ya, in this respect, Martin Luther was quite the dick.

He wasn't stating anything new, nothing that wasn't already rampant in Christianity.

303 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:19:37am

re: #301 yma o hyd

I think this is a very good point!

IIRC, the german Evangelical/Lutheran Church turned into a rabid Hitler-following organistaion.
The few Evangelicals who were deeply against this, formed something called the 'Bekennende Kirche'. They were persecuted and killed.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of them.
The Catholic Bishops - too late, but they actually did this - proclaimed against Hitler in some letters read in all churches. One famous one was the Bishop of Mnster, von Galen.

It's very good.
It was a bad situation though - this is a book I found dealt very well with these questions:
Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII (Paperback)
Disreagrd the title - its actually very good.

304 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:20:06am

re: #301 yma o hyd

That was weird, Anyway, it's very good.

305 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #286 experiencedtraveller

...look forward?

Is your point to add protestant bashing to the equation?

I don't think that showing the long and deep roots of anti-semitism, be it in the christian denomonations or elsewhere, is actually 'bashing'.
If we don't know where the roots are, how can we try and eradicate this sickness?

306 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:21:50am

re: #295 Cato the Elder

Old expressions of hatred are less relevant than the last fifty years of rapprochement.

I comment because it seems many here simply ignore the recent in favor of the old.

307 dentate  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:23:34am

By Forgiving Traditionalists, the Pope Offends Jews

308 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:23:50am

re: #306 experiencedtraveller

Old expressions of hatred are less relevant than the last fifty years of rapprochement.

I comment because it seems many here simply ignore the recent in favor of the old.

Yes, but I have also seen many inquire as to why there has been so much anti-semitism through the ages. It seems because of the rapprochement, some people have lost sight of the history behind all of it.

309 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:23:58am

re: #304 Walter L. Newton

That was weird, Anyway, it's very good.

Heh.
There are some weird going-ons sometimes when posting - happens to me as well!

Blame the hamsters!

310 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:24:34am

re: #239 pingjockey

BTW, when did Pat Buchanan lose his mind? In the last 10 years or so? Or is a recent development?

* * *
Like David Gergen, another Ford administration chief of staff or White House guy, both he & Buchanan love their face time on MSNBC and new media "celebrity" with a new generation that wasn't born back in their glory days.

Buchanan & Gergen and others enjoy their new media fame & fortune telling all, including disgusting personal views that may get more twisted with age--or psychedelic from media intoxication.

Hope McCain doesn't end up just like them, though he's got a good head start.

311 yma o hyd  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:31:20am

re: #306 experiencedtraveller

Old expressions of hatred are less relevant than the last fifty years of rapprochement.

I comment because it seems many here simply ignore the recent in favor of the old.

I think I surmise what you're aiming at.
Yes, there have been changes in the teachings and in theological seminaries in recent times. They are (as far as I'm concerned) utterly exhilarating.

But that does not mean we can forget about history.
Forgetting or, worse, denying history is a huge mistake. Actually, we need to learn more of history ... so here's another book which has already been published here in the UK and will come out shortly in the USA: The Forge of Christendom: The End of Days and the Epic Rise of the West (Hardcover)

A very good read - and amazingly enough, there are signs that institutionalised antisemitism in the Church seems to have started with the attacks by Islam.

312 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:31:30am
313 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:32:43am

re: #300 Walter L. Newton

Christianity (in all it's flavors) has been the biggest supporters of anti-semitism for centuries, period. It's not until the end of WWII that there has even been much study into this fact.

If anyone wants to know what kept anti-semitism alive for almost 2000 years, all they have to do is look to Christians.

re: #300 Walter L. Newton

Christianity (in all it's flavors) has been the biggest supporters of anti-semitism for centuries, period. It's not until the end of WWII that there has even been much study into this fact.

If anyone wants to know what kept anti-semitism alive for almost 2000 years, all they have to do is look to Christians.

Goldhagen argues in his book that Hitler used this same ages- old hatred as a tool to gain power. He was a master manipulator and knew how to play to the spirit of the times- zeitgeist

314 Summer Seale  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:34:08am

I posted a comment on the CK site:

You mean Holocaust “Revisionism” is going down the tubes?

And here I was, thinking all the time that it had never left the gutter.

315 Daisy  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:34:24am

re: #296 Kaymad

Thanks for your response. You may have seen Cato the Elder's response, which was also helpful. I've no doubt about the practice of prejudice towards Catholics in a predominately Protestant culture. The internalization of oppression seems to work in such a way, that the most oppressed (as the Jews were at one time in the USA) tend to move themselves up socially by identifying w/the greatest oppressor. In the case of American culture, that would, of course, be the Protestant culture. Joining ranks, so to speak (or at least attempting to join ranks) w/the most oppressive so as not to remain on the bottom can help work to elevate a people. It works for awhile - and can work in the long run too, if a people are industrious enough. Having said that, it seems to me that Catholic bashing by Jewish people, at this stage of the game is especially unattractive, not to mention ill informed and counter-productive to living and dealing w/reality.

Apart from that, I don't like to see someone (anyone, actually) taking responsibility for the error of their ways (in this case, the Pope) and then being gang banged as a consequence for taking responsibility. It would seem more to the point to ask others to step up and take a turn at asking forgiveness, but oddly, that's not what's happened.

316 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:37:02am
317 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #289 rightymouse

I reported him to my cop friend at the local police station. He told me that they knew all about him and had been watching him. Fair enough?

* * *
Yes, thank you for not tolerating open blatant slander from a lawbreaking merchant of carcinogens, and reporting it to authorities.

I apologize--but I tend to be rude to moslems & others who make crazy statements about Israel or Jewish people.

Plus the fact Hamas fundraises in the US to kill Israelis by selling cigarettes from low tax states in high tax states, disturbs me lots.

318 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:38:57am

re: #226 opnion

That's a separate issue entirely! =)

319 BryanS  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:49:34am

re: #316 ploome hineni

No, not really confused. I was stating exactly your point--that the church is responsible for how it handles offenders within its ranks. Perhaps you misunderstood? I stated the church is not responsible for an individual's actions per se. "Per se" meaning in and of themselves. In other words, the actions of a criminal are not by default to have their blame laid on the group that the criminal belongs to. Then I stated that the churches handling of offenders was deplorable--and in fact I agree the `church's behavior actually caused more of the crimes to occur.

320 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:50:17am
321 Daisy  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:51:30am

re: #301 yma o hyd

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll order it. Despite - and even because - of my thinking about 'internalized oppression' I am very interested in learning more about the whole subject.

322 erisldysnomia  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:02:24pm

At least Kommandant Rudolf Höß had the goddamn common decency to sort of apologize before he was hung near his villa at Auschwitz.

It's more than the antisemitic genetically inferior retard Weber would have done if it had been him ordering up the Zyklon B for the gas chambers:


"My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the "Third Reich" for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done."

323 erisldysnomia  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:11:54pm

re: #51 _RememberTonyC

the haters can spin this any way they want, but the one truth remains this: there are people in the world who hate Jews and want to see a "Holocaust II" and a "Holocaust III," etc until all the Jews are gone. And all the political bullshit about "Zionism" is nothing more than old fashioned Jew hatred in a different package. Even Martin Luther King himself said that "anti Zionism" is simply "anti semitism." I will try and find his quote.

And there's well armed Jews who will - er - put a damper on the Holocaust II and III festivals.

Now THAT's something these idiots really despise. How dare the Jews spoil their murderous bloodthirsty fun?

324 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:25:22pm

re: #311 yma o hyd

You see my point and if you re-read this thread you may agree to its validity. There is no danger in students of history discussing the past. There is great danger in old arguments transcending modern reality. For the easist way to break up a friendship is to argue an old conflict.

Thanks for the book tip. It is on the list!

Regards.

325 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:26:42pm
326 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:31:02pm

re: #300 Walter L. Newton

Christianity (in all it's flavors) has been the biggest supporters of anti-semitism for centuries, period. It's not until the end of WWII that there has even been much study into this fact.

If anyone wants to know what kept anti-semitism alive for almost 2000 years, all they have to do is look to Christians.

Of course by saying the above, you risk being called Catholic basher or Christian basher, even though you're just stating what has historically happened.

Check out Goldhagen was figuratively "flogged" by most everyone in the field for speaking up.re: #320 experiencedtraveller

Goldhagen's book uses historical method to develop his strident theme. He wanted to make a point and tailored his evidence accordingly. No harm there. Historians do it every day.

But the criticism of his work stands. [deleted].

Its up to the individual to decide. :)

Yes it is our individual choice to decide and I think Finkelstein, the Catholic League, and catholiceducation.org are not reliable sources on this topic.

327 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:32:41pm
328 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:32:54pm

re: #320 experiencedtraveller

Goldhagen's book uses historical method to develop his strident theme. He wanted to make a point and tailored his evidence accordingly. No harm there. Historians do it every day.

But the criticism of his work stands. [deleted].

Its up to the individual to decide. :)

pimf-
Yes it is our individual choice to decide and I think Finkelstein, the Catholic League, and catholiceducation.org are not reliable sources on this topic.

329 Lynn B.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #216 abolitionist

Most of my search results so far are indicating King's letter to a friend was a hoax, or mostly a hoax, with some truth truth embedded in it. Two links:
[Link: www.jewish-history.com...]
[Link: yidwithlid.blogspot.com...]

Still looking...

It's a hoax. There was never any such article in Saturday Review. Unfortunately, it continues to circulate.

As pointed out previously, the sentiments are similar to ones that MLK actually did express. But there was no letter and no "anti-Zionist friend."

The CAMERA link posted above by freedomsound is probably the most definitive debunking out there.

330 Lynn B.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:40:45pm

re: #329 Lynn B.

Ooops.

[Link: www.camera.org...]

331 Buck  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Bishop Richard Williamson is the worst sort of Holocaust denier. He hold power and is believed.

Shame on the Pope.

332 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:41:43pm
333 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:44:06pm
334 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:44:10pm
335 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:45:51pm
336 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:46:19pm

re: #332 ploome hineni

I am sorry you for you. You are out of your league and emotional.

Good bye.

337 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:46:55pm
338 gman  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:56:29pm

re: #333 experiencedtraveller

You may find Ruth Bettina Birn's critique harder to dismiss.

You mean the Ruth Bettina Birn who teamed up with Finkelstein to write
A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth

339 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:58:34pm
340 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:59:48pm
Much as I hate to say it, I'm afraid this creep is admitting defeat too soon. I fear that conditions are all too ripe for Holocaust denial to become a booming business in coming years.


Unfortunately, Weber has figured something out. His tactic of asserting that it didn't happen, as a snide way of saying that it did but there wasn't anything wrong with it, has failed. That Emperor really has no clothes.

Now he's going to take a different tack. The new watchword will be Iran's rights, or Palestinian rights, or what have you. Snide ways of saying that maybe Iran will bring off what Germany couldn't, and of wishing Iran good luck.

This is dangerous, partly because Iran might just halfway bring it off, as Germany halfway did. But also because it would carry in its wake a similar large scale destruction of Iran, and with it, one of history's oldest civilizations.

It would also set a precedent, and a dangerous one. Once a nuclear war is fought, people will be calculating their chances for the next one, and assuming, with reckless nonchalance, that the next one will be small just like the last one. (Not to say that any nuclear war can be small---just to say what ought to be obvious but won't be: a nuclear war fought by Iran and Israel would not involve as much megatonnage as one fought by larger powers.)

341 Mauser  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:02:08pm

So, since they couldn't sell Holocaust Denial, they're now going to work to send Jews BACK to the gas chambers they previously said didn't exist.

Truly the sign of a grate mind. (Misspelling intentional).

342 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:02:55pm

re: #320 experiencedtraveller

Goldhagen's book uses historical method to develop his strident theme. He wanted to make a point and tailored his evidence accordingly. No harm there. Historians do it every day.

But the criticism of his work stands. [deleted].

Its up to the individual to decide. :)

You're going to cite Norman Finkelstein to refute Daniel Goldhagen? Are you serious?

343 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:05:16pm

re: #333 experiencedtraveller

Are you aware that you're linking to David Irving's Holocaust denial site?

344 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:07:36pm

And vho.org?

Are you freaking kidding with this stuff, or are you just Googling and posting links without even checking where they go?

Frankly, I'm on the verge of blocking your account, unless you explain what the hell you're doing.

345 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:08:10pm

re: #292 Ron Shaw

Maybe it's too optimistic but possibly now we can begin to at least hope to see the Global Warmers come to their senses. With luck, more of them will begin to open their eyes and ears to reality!

IMHO, Global Warming is as farcical as holocaust denial, 9-11 Truthers, anti-evolution kooks and those who continue to deny there is any liberal bias within the MSM.

Excuse me, but it is ethically and logically illegitimate to put those who assert that the earth is warming because of manmade CO2 in the same camp as holocaust deniers.

For that matter, it isn't even fair to young-earth creationists. They're wrong, but they're not wicked. They're just mistaken. And IF global warming turns out to be mistaken, most of those who claimed it was a danger will have been only mistaken. A few, the liars who cry that the sky is falling, make up hockey sticks, fake historical numbers, etc., are wicked, but what about the ones who have no patience for that but point to Glacier-no-more National Park?

346 Buck  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:12:11pm

re: #313 gman

I think that the world leaves out the obvious influence of the Mufti of Jerusalem.

347 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:16:18pm

experiencedtraveller: I've decided there's no way you didn't know what those sites were about. You linked to two of the most notorious Holocaust denial sites on the web.

I've deleted your ugly links and your account is history.

348 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:28:29pm

Is there some kind of crazy dust in the air lately?

349 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 1:41:13pm

re: #343 Charles

Are you aware that you're linking to David Irving's Holocaust denial site?

No. Sorry. I thought it was a der Spiegel interview. I see now why ploome went off. I apologise to all for the sloppy links.

I was addressing the argument of societal blame versus individual blame. Goldhagen's book moves the argument towards societal blame. There is a lot of opposition to that argument.

350 experiencedtraveller  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:04:04pm

re: #347 Charles

experiencedtraveller: I've decided there's no way you didn't know what those sites were about. You linked to two of the most notorious Holocaust denial sites on the web.

I've deleted your ugly links and your account is history.

Thanks for deleting the horrific links and I hope you can still see this post. The subject of the awful links was Ruth Birn who is a respected historian and 'nazi hunter'. I am sorry to see her posted in those ugly sites. I was very very careless. And I don't know why she agreed to publish with Finkelstein.

I've read all the books in question as well as the back-and-forth in Foreign Affairs and other journals. I lean towards the individual guilt argument. And this is in all cases and not just the holocaust.

I very much regret embarrassing you. If you could pass my apologies I would be most grateful.

Regards.

351 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:09:27pm

re: #349 experiencedtraveller

No. Sorry. I thought it was a der Spiegel interview. I see now why ploome went off. I apologise to all for the sloppy links.

I was addressing the argument of societal blame versus individual blame. Goldhagen's book moves the argument towards societal blame. There is a lot of opposition to that argument.

You just barely missed having your account blocked. You need to check your sources more carefully.

There's a reason why neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers hate Goldhagen's work.

352 rabidfox  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:13:12pm

re: #16 pegcity
Pegcity, Ike made a point of extensively documenting what he found in those concentration camps because he knew that some years down the pike, people wouldn't believe what happened there without lots and lots of proof.

353 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:05:58pm
354 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:06:52pm
355 Mauser  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:26:59pm

re: #348 Charles

Is there some kind of crazy dust in the air lately?

Obamamania?

356 BeckoningChasm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:31:12pm

Mark Weber, a telegenic Californian

I could have sworn that said "telegenic Cartman."

357 kayfromcarroll  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:56:50pm

re: #226 opnion

My mother explained the issue to me when I asked her many years ago....

After Vatican II, the church felt it went against the moral code (?) to perpetuate the concept of Jews as "Jesus-killers", and as a result, most of us who went to CCD (Catholic Religious Studies) never heard the Jews blamed as the killers of Jesus.

It was quite widespread in the Catholic Church prior to this, however.

358 Pastorius  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:05:57pm

#40 Jaunte hit the nail on the head here, in my opinion.

Good job, Jaunte.

359 Gunny Highway  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 9:09:37am

Really...no kidding?

I guess this guy just woke up out of a deep sleep to just now realize the truth.


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