Texas Creationists Had a Plan B

Science • Views: 2,612

As we noted yesterday, the creationists on the Texas State Board of Education may have been defeated in one part of their anti-science agenda, but they had a Plan B—they introduced ludicrous new last-minute amendments that question the “Big Bang” theory and the biological theory of common descent: Scientists: Board proposals undermine evolution teaching.

One board member who pushed for the change said that fossil records create scientific evidence against universal common descent — and students should be allowed to study the possibility.

“There are many, many gaps that don’t link species changing and evolving into another species, so we want our students to get all of the science, and we want them to have great, open discussions and learning to respect each other’s opinions,” said Barbara Cargill, R-The Woodlands, a former science teacher.

She scoffed at claims that social conservatives on the 15-member board were just trying to find another way to expose students to creationism — the belief that life, Earth and the universe were created by a supreme being.

“This isn’t about religion. I don’t know how many times we have to say it before people accept it,” she said. “It’s about science. We want to stick to the science.”

The most striking attribute of creationists is that so many of them are persistent, shameless liars. The agenda of activist creationists is purely religious, and it is absolutely obvious to any honest observer—yet they insist on lying about it and trying to cover it up.

Texas BOE Chairman Don McLeroy, a young earth creationist, has a website on which he has posted his “thoughts” on Intelligent Design, and if you don’t believe the creationists’ agenda is based on fundamental Christianity and a rabid hatred for science, read a little bit of his ignorant nonsense, laced with Biblical references and absurd pseudo-science. This is the guy who’s leading the charge in Texas. Who do they think they’re fooling when they claim it’s “not about religion?”

Speaking of liars, the creationists at the Discovery Institute are crowing over the new amendments:

“We view this as one step back, two steps forward,” said John West, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a conservative think-tank based in Seattle that disputes the theory of evolution. “The board unfortunately failed to reinstate specific language requiring coverage of strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories. But, in the area of evolution, it significantly improved the standards by adopting a series of amendments to make sure that students have to analyze and evaluate the major parts of evolutionary theory.”

Also see
Texas Education Chainsaw Massacre: Part 3 « The Sensuous Curmudgeon

Jump to bottom

751 comments
1 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:52:43pm

Like natural selection, they are relentless

2 debutaunt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:53:42pm

But lying as a means to an end, is like, ok isn't it?

3 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:56:18pm

Thou shalt not lye

4 unclassifiable  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:57:00pm

re: #2 debutaunt

But lying as a means to an end, is like, ok isn't it?

Yeah if you're a fascist.

5 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:57:58pm

Do these loons think that they can negate E=mc2?

6 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:58:07pm

Creationist taqqiya is fully operational.

7 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:58:48pm

Governor Paterson had a plan B too.

GOV SAYS CAROLINE TURNED 'NASTY'

Gov. Paterson rapped Caroline Kennedy at a private event the night before he tapped Kirsten Gillibrand for the Senate, telling guests Kennedy had been "nasty" to him and shown "disrespect" with how she bowed out, attendees told The Post.

The governor's attack came just hours after his office issued a statement wishing her well and disavowing quotes from a source close to him who had told The Post Kennedy had never been in true contention for the seat and was "mired" in personal issues.

Kennedy's six-week political career [running for office is not a 'career] was marked by a string of miscues as she faired poorly in interviews and was hit by criticism and questions about whether she was up to the job.

As for Paterson on Thursday, a source close to him said Kennedy was never in true contention because of issues over taxes, a nanny and questions about her marriage.

Does this guy know who the Kennedy's are?

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:59:53pm

re: #5 Syrah

Do these loons think that they can negate E=mc2?

It has already been tried to make pi = 3 since that is what the bible says. E = mc2 can be safely ignored since the good book has nothing to say about it.

9 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:00:35pm

"4. How long before Darwinism enters the trash bin of history?" This old boy is nuts!

10 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:00:57pm

Let's give the leftoids another issue, shall we. Unfortunately these IDers are generally Jindal Repubican idiots, and not Obama idiots.

11 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:01:40pm

re: #7 Racer X

Governor Paterson had a plan B too.

Does this guy know who the Kennedy's are?

I hope he has the sense to turn down any rides from Teddy.

12 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:01:57pm

“It’s about science. We want to stick (it) to the science.”

Whenever these morons talk about the gaps in the fossil record they must be talking about the fossil record as known in 1950. Those gaps have closed remarkably since then with new finds on an almost daily basis.

13 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:02:18pm

re: #9 MrPaulRevere

"4. How long before Darwinism enters the trash bin of history?" This old boy is nuts!

Completely whacked out. And he's the chairman of the Texas Board of Education.

14 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:02:23pm

re: #7 Racer X

Now that Uncle Teddy is close to a dirt nap or retirement from the Senate the Kennedy name has as much potency as the Clinton name had for Hillary.

If running for office isn't a political career, that sure makes the O's resume prior to his election rather light.

15 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:02:46pm

re: #3 Shug

Thou shalt not lye

A caustic remark?

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:03:29pm

re: #15 Kosh's Shadow

A caustic remark?

At least it wasn't a paper cut and some lemon juice.

17 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:03:51pm

re: #15 Kosh's Shadow

A caustic remark?

I thought it rather base.

18 ceemack  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:05:01pm

re: #15 Kosh's Shadow

A caustic remark?


Only if you have an acid wit.

19 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:05:10pm

re: #13 Charles

Completely whacked out. And he's the chairman of the Texas Board of Education.

"Darwinisim" as it was originally described, has been extensively modified, but that only strengthens the "theory" of evolution, as it now fits the evidence better. Similarly, Newtonian mechanics is still quite useful, even though quantum mechanics and relativity show its errors.
All this shows is how little science this guy knows.

20 ceemack  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:05:58pm
“We view this as one step back, two steps forward,” said John West, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a conservative think-tank based in Seattle that disputes the theory of evolution.


Could somebody tell me what the Discovery Institute has to do with conservatism?

21 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:06:07pm

re: #19 Kosh's Shadow

"Darwinisim" as it was originally described, has been extensively modified, but that only strengthens the "theory" of evolution, as it now fits the evidence better. Similarly, Newtonian mechanics is still quite useful, even though quantum mechanics and relativity show its errors.
All this shows is how little science this guy knows.

That's what happens when you use the Bible as your only science book.

22 Sol Roth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:06:56pm
the Discovery Institute, a conservative think-tank based in Seattle

There's nothing "conservative" about anti-reason. Atavists infiltrating education from their base in Seattle is a dead giveaway.

23 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:07:05pm

re: #20 ceemack

Could somebody tell me what the Discovery Institute has to do with conservatism?

Nothing, but the media loves to make the false connection.

24 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:07:21pm

re: #21 FurryOldGuyJeans

That's what happens when you use the Bible as your only science book.

Agreed. You should also use the Koran. /

25 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:07:51pm

re: #22 Sol Roth

There's nothing "conservative" about anti-reason. Atavists infiltrating education from their base in Seattle is a dead giveaway.

Hey, don't look at me.....
;-)

26 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:08:17pm

re: #21 FurryOldGuyJeans

That's what happens when you use the Bible as your only science book.

I don't think they are using the Bible as the only science book. I think they are listening to some (probably well connected) preacher's interpretation of the Bible.

Kind of like the Koran as interpreted by a mullah.

27 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:08:49pm
28 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:09:10pm

"The story does accurately represent that I am a Christian and that my faith in God is something that I take very seriously. My Christian convictions are shared by many people." [Link: home.att.net...] Interesting little website the man has.

29 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:09:31pm

re: #20 ceemack

Could somebody tell me what the Discovery Institute has to do with conservatism?

Unfortunately there are too many on the right that embrace the DI. This is what we get. We have to remove these ideas from the conservative movement or we will be tarred with that brush for the foreseeable future.

30 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:10:04pm

re: #20 ceemack

Could somebody tell me what the Discovery Institute has to do with conservatism?

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a false connection. Creationism is a huge problem for conservatives and Republicans. Discovery Institute spokesmen are regularly published in the National Review, for example. Many top Republican politicians are creationists, but almost no Democrats. (I can't name one.)

31 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:10:13pm

re: #26 jwb7605

I don't think they are using the Bible as the only science book. I think they are listening to some (probably well connected) preacher's interpretation of the Bible.

Kind of like the Koran as interpreted by a mullah.

Yep, just like that.
please

32 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:11:30pm

re: #26 jwb7605

I don't think they are using the Bible as the only science book. I think they are listening to some (probably well connected) preacher's interpretation of the Bible.

Kind of like the Koran as interpreted by a mullah.

It's what happens when you don't study the Bible, only read the words. The Bible is understood and applies spiritually. When it is used as knowledge it becomes a dead work of literature.

33 Sol Roth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:11:55pm

re: #25 jcm

Hey, don't look at me.....
;-)

How you move amongst the Stalinists in your city without going apeshit I'll never understand.

34 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:12:12pm

the thing i have never really understood about creationists is how they don't get how much of modern scientific thought bears out the basic (if not specific) paradigm by which they want to understand the world.

35 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:13:01pm

re: #32 jcm

It's what happens when you don't study the Bible, only read the words. The Bible is understood and applies spiritually. When it is used as knowledge it becomes a dead work of literature.

Rather well put.

36 Lynn B.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:14:08pm
“There are many, many gaps that don’t link species changing and evolving into another species, so we want our students to get all of the science, and we want them to have great, open discussions and learning to respect each other’s opinions,” said Barbara Cargill, R-The Woodlands, a former science teacher.

She scoffed at claims that social conservatives on the 15-member board were just trying to find another way to expose students to creationism — the belief that life, Earth and the universe were created by a supreme being.

Barbara Cargill has a website.

Maybe she spent some time lurking at LGF while working on her talking points.

“This isn’t about religion. I don’t know how many times we have to say it before people accept it,” she said. “It’s about science. We want to stick to the science.”

Riiiiiiiiiight.

37 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:14:24pm

re: #30 Charles

They absolutely destroyed the Republican party in Kansas.

38 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:15:06pm

re: #30 Charles

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a false connection.

So the question becomes, will it become a causal connection?

That is, will it become necessary to support ID to be accepted into "conservative" political machinery, such as the GOP?

39 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:15:37pm

Next they will be going after fundamental physics. Why, for example, spend billions on the LHC when everyone knows the age and composition of the universe is just smoke and mirrors by the Turtle to test the faithful?

40 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:15:48pm

And by the way, when I refer to the Discovery Institute as creationists, it's very deliberate and intended to point out their essential dishonesty. I refuse to honor their claim that "intelligent design" is distinct from creationism -- it's the same smelly old flea-bitten wolf in new sheep's clothing.

41 callahan23  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:16:29pm

And finally this nutter states:

We are not opposing unintelligent people. They are very smart, highly intellectual.


Yet he's lacking all traces of intellect.

42 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:18:40pm

re: #30 Charles

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a false connection. Creationism is a huge problem for conservatives and Republicans. Discovery Institute spokesmen are regularly published in the National Review, for example. Many top Republican politicians are creationists, but almost no Democrats. (I can't name one.)

Mark Pryor of Arkansas

43 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:18:53pm

re: #34 mockery jones

the thing i have never really understood about creationists is how they don't get how much of modern scientific thought bears out the basic (if not specific) paradigm by which they want to understand the world.

It also works the other way. How is it the Bible they claim to follow says explicitly the creation displays and reflects the handiwork of God, that the secrets of God places are for us to discover. The when things are discovered reject them.

44 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:19:16pm

The Republican Party was an offshoot of the Whig Party. It may be time for intelligent conservatives to close the asylum door and go find another clubhouse.

45 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:19:16pm

re: #20 ceemack

Could somebody tell me what the Discovery Institute has to do with conservatism?

Nothing whatsoever- other than being promoted by some who consider themselves conservative.

46 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:19:26pm

re: #40 Charles

And by the way, when I refer to the Discovery Institute as creationists, it's very deliberate and intended to point out their essential dishonesty. I refuse to honor their claims that"intelligent design" is distinct from creationism -- it's the same smelly old flea-bitten wolf in new sheep's clothing.

Many years ago, when the concept of Intelligent Design was first floated, it seemed like a reasonable theory, and seemed to accept evolution, and seemed to hold that evolution was the work of a 'master creator'.

I thought "yeah, I could go along with that", and didn't pursue it any further.

Roughly when did the ID thing take a turn towards stupid?

47 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:19:39pm

re: #39 Naso Tang

Excellent point. Bad news for the USA.

48 ihatepantz  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:21:34pm

I wonder what Stephen Hawking has to say about all this...

49 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:22:32pm

re: #44 USBeast

The Republican Party was an offshoot of the Whig Party. It may be time for intelligent conservatives to close the asylum door and go find another clubhouse.

The Whig party imploded over the slavery issue. By the time the election of Lincoln rolled around the Whigs were gone, and their place in the 2 party system had been subsumed by the Republicans.

The problem is 3rd parties are not viable. We have to destroy the Republican party first, then step in with a replacement.

50 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:23:00pm

re: #46 jwb7605

Since always- it was designed as such to lull you into the very thoughts you had. Please read the Wedge Strategy.

51 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:23:25pm

re: #46 jwb7605

Many years ago, when the concept of Intelligent Design was first floated, it seemed like a reasonable theory, and seemed to accept evolution, and seemed to hold that evolution was the work of a 'master creator'.

I thought "yeah, I could go along with that", and didn't pursue it any further.

Roughly when did the ID thing take a turn towards stupid?

Since it was made political, about gaining political power. Not about teaching any alternatives.

52 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:23:30pm

re: #43 jcm

I think the reason is mainly simple ignorance. Our education system refuses to get in the face with those preaching ignorant superstition. People who have been taught one thing at home all their lives and then are faced with a teacher trying to promote something contradictory for a few hours in school, are going to take their ignorant parents' word first.

They then perpetuate the ignorance in the next generation.

53 Lynn B.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:23:57pm

The motto from the bottom of Barbara Cargill's re-election campaign (for school board) website:

"He only asks thee to yield thyself to Him, that He may work in thee to will and to do by His own mighty power. Thy part is to yield thyself and His part is to work; and never, never will He give thee any command which is not accompanied by ample power to obey it." - Hannah W. Smith

But it's NOT about religion.

There's more...

54 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:24:01pm

From that website:

What can stop science is an irrefutable preconception. Anytime you attempt to limit possible explanations in science, it is then that you get your science stopper. In science class, it is important to remember that the consensus of a conviction does not determine whether it is true or false. In science class, you teach science.

What a bunch of correct sounding balderdash. Of course Science has limits, it always has, and it always will. It is limited by facts and reality - that empiricism where explanations that do not account for what is factually observable and testable don't get looked at. Under the guise of making Science discussion in classes "unlimited" Discovery Institute hopes to remove all value from it. Just as the communists in the teaching schools have inverted history by removing or discounting many pertinent facts, Discovery Institute hopes to "deconstruct" Science.

55 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:24:26pm

re: #49 jcm

The Whig party imploded over the slavery issue. By the time the election of Lincoln rolled around the Whigs were gone, and their place in the 2 party system had been subsumed by the Republicans.

The problem is 3rd parties are not viable. We have to destroy the Republican party first, then step in with a replacement.

I think the Republican party has done a good job of destroying itself this past election. The question is, will the MSM allow another party to form? If they don't cover the party, too few people will vote for it.
I'm afraid we're headed to a one party system, comrade.

56 ihatepantz  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:24:38pm

Did Hannah W. Smith help write the bible?

57 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:26:25pm

re: #52 Naso Tang


They then perpetuate the ignorance in the next generation.

And therefore proving Dawkin's hypotheses of memes. Very ironic. (Or not)

58 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:26:38pm

re: #42 swamprat

Mark Pryor of Arkansas

Yep, there's one -- but he's a pretty soft creationist compared to the GOP side.

I can name at least a dozen off the top of my head: Mike Huckabee, Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, Sam Brownback ... I could continue for quite a while.

59 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:26:51pm

re: #51 jcm

Since it was made political, about gaining political power. Not about teaching any alternatives.

No- it's entire conception was to cloak creationism after it's fall in the Edwards v. Aguillard decision. It has always been a mask for creationism.

60 claire  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:27:28pm

So this essay is what this dummy teaches in Sunday school? He's still hawking irreducible complexity as something real? Gahh. Chairman of the State School Board and convinced he's the only one with an open mind. Just unbelievable. Is there a way to get these people in a room and prop their eyelids open and make them watch Ken Miller explain how stupid they are? Double Gahh.

61 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:27:43pm

re: #30 Charles

I don't mean to nitpick Charles, but I subscribe to NR, and I rarely see the subject mentioned. I've read the articles from the Disco institute NR online posted and you pointed out, which is regrettable to say the least. I guess my quibble is the use of the word 'regularly'

62 Sol Roth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:28:13pm

re: #30 Charles

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a false connection. Creationism is a huge problem for conservatives and Republicans. Discovery Institute spokesmen are regularly published in the National Review, for example. Many top Republican politicians are creationists, but almost no Democrats. (I can't name one.)

It's what happens when one majors in communications, political science or whatever studies in college. Then one becomes the standard-issue pandering politician for his career. Ignorance + ambition; a dangerous combination for leaders.

All Democrats have to do is pander to default collectivists, and replace God with the State.

Then there are the rest of us who actually value reason and facts over existential anxiety, a chance to realize our spirit's desire over the prison of collective slavery. There aren't many of us left. We are about to become politically inert once the majority stop paying taxes at our expense.

63 ihatepantz  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:29:07pm

I say let them teach what they want. If parents want their offspring to sound like morons in the real world, then SO BE IT.

64 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:29:46pm

re: #49 jcm

The Whig party imploded over the slavery issue. By the time the election of Lincoln rolled around the Whigs were gone, and their place in the 2 party system had been subsumed by the Republicans.

The problem is 3rd parties are not viable. We have to destroy the Republican party first, then step in with a replacement.

That third parties are not viable is conventional wisdom. It was once conventional wisdom that said a black man could not become president.

65 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:30:06pm
66 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:30:11pm

re: #50 Sharmuta

Since always- it was designed as such to lull you into the very thoughts you had. Please read the Wedge Strategy.

Wow.
I got a couple of "for public consumption e-mails", and fell for the text.
I did not attend the meeting I was invited to, because I am not a Christian conservative, and felt my religious views would be disruptive.

The link is bookmarked. Many thanks.

67 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:30:12pm

re: #61 MrPaulRevere

I don't mean to nitpick Charles, but I subscribe to NR, and I rarely see the subject mentioned. I've read the articles from the Disco institute NR online posted and you pointed out, which is regrettable to say the least. I guess my quibble is the use of the word 'regularly'

Start here:

[Link: www.google.com...]

68 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:30:41pm

re: #49 jcm

The problem is 3rd parties are not viable. We have to destroy the Republican party first, then step in with a replacement.

Uh, don't look now, but I think that has happened thanks to the lethal RINO virus. It's time!

69 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:30:55pm

re: #63 ihatepantz

They can teach it at home or Church, but they may not teach it to any child but their own privately. They have no right to foist religion on other people's children at tax payer expense.

70 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:31:16pm

i'm struck wondering if there are any left leaning boards or blogs that would attack the shaman science of global warming the way the posters on this right leaning blog eagerly assault the creationist crackpots.

71 Elcid  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:31:34pm
the “Big Bang”

What most every GUY, hopes for. Ahhhh, yes.

72 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:32:18pm

re: #59 Sharmuta

I used to have a link to a graph of acceptance of evolution by political party. I lost the link. Do you happen to have it?

73 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:33:20pm

People connected with the Discovery Institute whose articles have appeared at National Review include David Berlinski, David Klinghoffer, John West, Wesley J. Smith, and Mustafa Aykol, among others.

74 ihatepantz  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:33:40pm

re: #69 Sharmuta I guess this is why Texas is 25 out of 50 when it comes to state education.

[Link: www.statestats.com...]

75 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:33:55pm

re: #52 Naso Tang

I think the reason is mainly simple ignorance. Our education system refuses to get in the face with those preaching ignorant superstition. People who have been taught one thing at home all their lives and then are faced with a teacher trying to promote something contradictory for a few hours in school, are going to take their ignorant parents' word first.

They then perpetuate the ignorance in the next generation.

Our education system has failed for at least 30 years. The skill of critical thinking. Has been abandoned. You've seen how many come around here and don't understand the common meaning of theory but not as used in science.

I wonder how many college freshman could correctly define physic and metaphysic.

The teacher trying to teach science at the K-12 level has a degree in education, seldom in the subjects they teach. They are taught to teach from the text not understand the subject. So much crap creeps in from that alone. When they teach science, have a basic level of understanding but don't know the subject in depth.

With out critical thinking skills, and the subject being taught by without understand it's no wonder few have the capacity to separate out the detritus.

76 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:34:14pm

re: #66 jwb7605

There is much more. I made a comment a while back that I stuck in my favorites for just such an occasion. Please see the links in this comment too:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

77 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:36:34pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

I favorited these two, but not the political party link

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

78 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:37:35pm

Screw these freaks..
My Favorite Scientist..Dr. Pamela Gay
[Link: www.starstryder.com...]

79 callahan23  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:38:06pm

Question: Aren't the New Age/ Esoteric people also closet creationists?

On this side of the pond (Europe) they regularly start to roll their eyes and start talking about alternative scenarios to evolution. Gahh

Double Gahh

80 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:38:09pm

turtles!

81 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:38:45pm

As a Lone Star State resident, this kinda stuff really chaps my hide, I tell you what. As if this state doesn't have enough problems with its public education system (we've got freakin' valedictorians from some of our high schools who barely speak English, and many others where English as a second language is more or less school policy), now we've got this nonsense to contend with.

Tell ya' what - you guys can put your little ID crap into as many textbooks as you want, if you can persuade the freakin' ed system here to teach English and graduate people who can at least add and subtract.

82 Kenneth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:38:50pm

Young earth/young universe creationsist have a serious theological problem.

If one take a telescope and looks at the billions of stars & galaxies and measures their vectors (ie. speed and direction) one can clearly see that they are all diverging from a common point. What is more, that divergance looks like it began about 12.5 billion years ago. There are several other measurements that can be taken, such as the cosmic radiation backgound, which point to the same beginning point, which has been called "The Big Bang".

So either the universe began in a big bang 12.5 billion years ago, or God, in one of his wackiest moments of irony, decided to make a universe a just few thousand years ago, but to make it look like it was 12.5 billion years ago.

Not only are Creationism & Intelligent Design junk science, they are junk theology as well.

83 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:39:08pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

There is much more. I made a comment a while back that I stuck in my favorites for just such an occasion. Please see the links in this comment too:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I owe you. Thanks (ugh!) for the info. Reference links favorited. (ugh!, again)

84 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:39:11pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

It's a damn hard link to find again.

85 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:40:05pm

re: #73 Charles

Thanks, NR does seem to be confused about the issue and they shouldn't be. Disappointing to say the least.

86 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:40:43pm

re: #80 joecitizen

turtles!

I've seen different variations of comments using "turtles" or "turtles all the way up" and such, I don't understand the reference. Can someone explain, please?

87 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:40:59pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

i have no problem with the creationist version being taught, as long as other interpretations are taught as well.

Understanding the Christian genesis story gives kids at the very least a literary understanding the text that will aide their comprehension when they come across references in classic and modern English lit.

I can't imagine reading authors like Daniel Defoe or Orson Scott Card without a basic understanding of biblical literature.

88 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:41:17pm

re: #82 Kenneth

Young earth/young universe creationsist have a serious theological problem.

If one take a telescope and looks at the billions of stars & galaxies and measures their vectors (ie. speed and direction) one can clearly see that they are all diverging from a common point. What is more, that divergance looks like it began about 12.5 billion years ago. There are several other measurements that can be taken, such as the cosmic radiation backgound, which point to the same beginning point, which has been called "The Big Bang".

So either the universe began in a big bang 12.5 billion years ago, or God, in one of his wackiest moments of irony, decided to make a universe a just few thousand years ago, but to make it look like it was 12.5 billion years ago.

Not only are Creationism & Intelligent Design junk science, they are junk theology as well.

I agree my friend..But the age of the Universe is closer to 13.7 Billion years not 12.5

89 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:41:25pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

I'm looking for it, and I will link and favorite it for future use.

90 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:42:35pm

re: #86 VegasRick

I've seen different variations of comments using "turtles" or "turtles all the way up" and such, I don't understand the reference. Can someone explain, please?

It's WIKI, so take with a grain of salt:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

91 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:42:50pm

Is Sarah Palin a Creationist for sure?
The stuff I've found looks like she more or less punted on the issue.
I'm asking because I don't know and would like to be more informed.

92 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:42:50pm

re: #87 mockery jones

We're not talking about kids learning about the Bible in history of Literature classes. There is something to be said about it's place in both, but it's not a science book and creationism isn't science. Neither have any place in the science classroom of a public school.

93 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:43:04pm

re: #87 mockery jones

True, but not in a science classroom, and definitely not in a literal sense, which will probably anger these same people.

94 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:43:12pm

re: #88 HoosierHoops

I agree my friend..But the age of the Universe is closer to 13.7 Billion years not 12.5

He wrote that 1.2 billion years ago. forgot to update.
/

95 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:43:28pm

re: #85 MrPaulRevere

Thanks, NR does seem to be confused about the issue and they shouldn't be. Disappointing to say the least.

It's not that hard to understand - way back at the beginning Buckley himself debated on the side of the creationists against Ken Miller and others, I suspect he liked their agenda. NR is a bastion of anti-atheism, but nowadays blindly allying with any anti-atheist cause can serve you poorly.

96 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:43:38pm

Killgore!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

97 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:43:41pm

re: #20 ceemack

Could somebody tell me what the Discovery Institute has to do with conservatism?


It's a big problem for the Republicans.....
QUESTIONS ABOUT HUMAN EVOLUTION BY PARTY ID AND POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY (about 1/2 way down the page)

Did humans evolve from an earlier species?
Republican 27% yes, 65% no
Democrats 48% yes, 44% no

That's a very big difference and a very bad sign.

98 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:43:49pm

re: #86 VegasRick

I've seen different variations of comments using "turtles" or "turtles all the way up" and such, I don't understand the reference. Can someone explain, please?


hey rick..I was (clearly!) just being a smartass..have no idea who came up with it originally...

99 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:44:14pm

re: #86 VegasRick

I've seen different variations of comments using "turtles" or "turtles all the way up" and such, I don't understand the reference. Can someone explain, please?

Turtles all the way down!

We have a high priest!

Youtube Video
100 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:44:47pm

re: #83 jwb7605

I'm always glad to help spread the truth.

101 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:44:48pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

Yippeee! A million dings upon you. Thank you very much.

102 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:44:54pm

re: #86 VegasRick

reference to hawking a brief history of time....

103 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:45:18pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

Woot! Good find.

104 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:45:35pm

re: #101 Killgore Trout

You are most welcome. Stick it in the spinoffs as related to post.

105 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:45:40pm

re: #82 Kenneth

Young earth/young universe creationsist have a serious theological problem.

If one take a telescope and looks at the billions of stars & galaxies and measures their vectors (ie. speed and direction) one can clearly see that they are all diverging from a common point. What is more, that divergance looks like it began about 12.5 billion years ago. There are several other measurements that can be taken, such as the cosmic radiation backgound, which point to the same beginning point, which has been called "The Big Bang".

So either the universe began in a big bang 12.5 billion years ago, or God, in one of his wackiest moments of irony, decided to make a universe a just few thousand years ago, but to make it look like it was 12.5 billion years ago.

Not only are Creationism & Intelligent Design junk science, they are junk theology as well.

Actually, there is no common point they're diverging from, otherwise, the expansion would appear uneven. That point is not in our 3-dimensional universe. If you were an ant on the surface of a balloon someone was inflating, you would see all points moving away from you, but you couldn't see the center because it isn't on the surface, it is in another dimension.

But I agree about G-d misleading us, despite what the Chabad rabbis say, where I attend services.

106 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:47:05pm

re: #86 VegasRick

I've seen different variations of comments using "turtles" or "turtles all the way up" and such, I don't understand the reference. Can someone explain, please?

Try this link

107 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:47:15pm

re: #94 VegasRick

He wrote that 1.2 billion years ago. forgot to update.
/

Blogs first started evolving about a billion years ago..So it's possible..
/

108 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:47:30pm

re: #90 Guanxi88

It's WIKI, so take with a grain of salt:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


Thanks and wow!

109 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:48:04pm
The most striking attribute of creationists is that so many of them are persistent, shameless liars.

No surprise there.

There are, unfortunately, certain people who think a lie can be made holy as long as it advances their agenda.

110 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:48:35pm

re: #87 mockery jones

i have no problem with the creationist version being taught, as long as other interpretations are taught as well.

Understanding the Christian genesis story gives kids at the very least a literary understanding the text that will aide their comprehension when they come across references in classic and modern English lit.

I can't imagine reading authors like Daniel Defoe or Orson Scott Card without a basic understanding of biblical literature.

The Biblical story should be taught, but not in a science class. In a literature or "social studies" class, OK. But not science.
The examples you gave are of literature, which is one reason for the Bible to be read, and a valid one in schools. But that would indicate it should be read in literature class.

111 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:48:39pm

A first!
Useful information on an ID/Creationist thread, and nobody is losing it!

You people are to be congratulated!

112 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:48:44pm

At some level, the whole Creationist/ID position seems to reflect a fundamental insecurity about theology. These people observe things in the world in which they live that do not comport with information found in their holy texts.

For reasons as yet unclear to me and others, the validity of their holy texts is contingent upon the words and their meanings being literal. I suppose this avoids hermeneutical disputes, but the cure is worse than the disease, because the position requires of them that the espouse beliefs and (I'll say the word) "theories" that are palpable nonsense.

It seems as if these people would rather distort physical reality than do the hard work of interpreting their holy texts.

113 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:48:52pm

re: #105 Kosh's Shadow

Actually, there is no common point they're diverging from, otherwise, the expansion would appear uneven. That point is not in our 3-dimensional universe. If you were an ant on the surface of a balloon someone was inflating, you would see all points moving away from you, but you couldn't see the center because it isn't on the surface, it is in another dimension.

But I agree about G-d misleading us, despite what the Chabad rabbis say, where I attend services.

Yes, God's authority is based (PS 98:14) his righteousness. Such a deceit would abrogate his authority.

114 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:49:30pm

re: #111 jwb7605

A first!
Useful information on an ID/Creationist thread, and nobody is losing it!

You people are to be congratulated!


well, it IS early...

115 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:50:51pm

The way these threads go the DI trolls will wait until Charles posts on a new subject, and the crowd is gone before they show up to try once more to deconstruct science.

116 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:50:58pm

re: #98 joecitizen

re: #102 mockery jones

re: #106 Kosh's Shadow

Thanks all.

117 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:51:27pm

re: #108 VegasRick

Thanks and wow!

I don't now if I was the first, but I use it frequently. It illustrates the logical fallacies of the ID crowd.

118 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:51:31pm

re: #111 jwb7605

I have to correct you- it's not a first, and quite a number of ID threads have plenty of useful information.

119 Cathypop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:51:52pm

We were talking about creationists at work last week and my comment was to follow the money. What do they want financialy? The more I dug the more I found that they are very cultish. Kits for your children to take to schoiol, kits for talking to your muslim friends. This group is totaly cult. My christian friends want nothing to do with this group so my question is where are they coming from? What do they want?

120 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:52:02pm

re: #115 Thanos

The way these threads go the DI trolls will wait until Charles posts on a new subject, and the crowd is gone before they show up to try once more to deconstruct science.

It's also early. Charles usually does this about 8 P.M. my time. It's only about 5 P.M. now.

121 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:52:14pm

re: #111 jwb7605

A first!
Useful information on an ID/Creationist thread, and nobody is losing it!

You people are to be congratulated!

I can do a Turtle rant if you like.

122 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:52:21pm

re: #10 Haverwilde

Let's give the leftoids another issue, shall we. Unfortunately these IDers are generally Jindal Repubican idiots, and not Obama idiots.

Hell, the left lies about everything and they are completely shameless.

AGW among other ideas haven't exactly made science look invincible lately.

123 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:52:36pm

Its too bad there can't be some kind of middle-ground that we can all agree to. Christianity is being attacked from all sides and now we're seeing Christians push back...I may not totally agree with the Texas State Board of Education's agenda, but its nice to see Christian's standing their ground and drawing a line in the sand.

124 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:52:55pm

re: #95 Thanos

"but nowadays blindly allying with any anti-atheist cause can serve you poorly". Well said. The editors seem to lack judgment and discernment allowing those articles to be published. A great larger point you hinted at the the peril of blindly allying with people and or organizations for emotional reasons without doing the proper vetting, which is plaguing the anti-Jihad cause as well.

125 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:53:08pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

Good idea.

126 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:53:31pm

re: #117 jcm

I don't now if I was the first, but I use it frequently. It illustrates the logical fallacies of the ID crowd.

The kid that says "I like tuttles looks like a real moron.

127 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:53:54pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

I have to correct you- it's not a first, and quite a number of ID threads have plenty of useful information.

I may have missed that, because of the righteous opinions I generally hit the page-down key to avoid.
Correction. Righteous facts. My first glimpse of Wrath usually caused me to hit the "exit" button.

128 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:55:08pm

re: #126 VegasRick

The kid that says "I like tuttles looks like a real moron.

BEHEAD Those that insult our priest!
/ ;-P

129 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:55:23pm

re: #123 Maximu§

Its too bad there can't be some kind of middle-ground that we can all agree to. Christianity is being attacked from all sides and now we're seeing Christians push back...I may not totally agree with the Texas State Board of Education's agenda, but its nice to see Christian's standing their ground and drawing a line in the sand.

updinged.

130 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:55:25pm

Just from curiosity, could we maybe work out a Godwin's Law for ID/Creationism threads?

Turtles
Gap in Fossil Record
Piltdown
etc., etc.

This stuff keeps coming up so frequently that it's becoming tiresome. (In fairness to all, I listed one evolutionary theory term that has worn out its welcome, and two whack-job bullet points. Balanced, you see?)

131 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:55:37pm

re: #99 jcm

Teach the controversy!

132 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:55:42pm

re: #112 Guanxi88

Do not undervalue the power of existential angst. As humans we all become aware of our impending death, even if that awareness becomes suppressed. Thus we have to come to ways to deal with that... and religion springs forth.

Last night on the open thread I linked to a website (Initforthegold) where the writer is recounting a trip to visit the South, and retelling what he heard someone say on the radio:

"We have nothing against freedom of religion. Everybody should be free to believe whatever they want, and no religion should get special treatment. But when it comes to the Bible, we aren't talking about religion. The Bible is the revealed truth of God."

The power of the mind that lets a person differentiate "religion" from "The Bible is the revealed truth of God" is itself a rather amazing phenomena, a human trait with which we all must deal.

133 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:55:43pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

I have to correct you- it's not a first, and quite a number of ID threads have plenty of useful information.


I don't think I've ever read one of these threads where there weren't at least several meltdowns...perhaps I was distracted at those times by a little ball of wonder that we call emilycitizen, as I am about to be now!

134 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:56:23pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Teach the controversy!

I need to get one of those.

135 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:56:34pm

re: #119 Cathypop

What do they want?

Million dollar question for all extremists...

136 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:56:53pm
137 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:58:28pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Teach the controversy!

I like the t-shirt with the devil burying a T-Rex fossil.

138 Cathypop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:58:29pm

re: #135 Basho

My question was "follow the money." But I can't find it. Can you help?

139 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:58:53pm

re: #126 VegasRick

The kid that says "I like tuttles looks like a real moron.

Do not disrespect the Prophet of the Turtles!

Keep it up unbeliever and we will have you tossed off the south side of the turtle stack and let me tell you, the accumulated pile of turtle dung from an infinite stack of turtles is a mighty unpleasant place to be condemned to for eternity!

140 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

re: #93 Basho

i don't see why it couldn't be used in a science classroom. have you ever seen the episode of the discovery channel's the universe "beyond the big bang", it showed how our understanding evolved from the creation stories to the theories of the modern sciences. there is no reason a science class could not be conducted in the same manner; showing creationist ideas as part of the evolution of ideas that have lead to the modern understanding of life the universe and everything.....

whether the creationists like that place in the curriculum or not is immaterial. It satisfies the demand for the ideas to be taught without sacrificing the post enlightenment discoveries of the modern sciences. Leaving the creation stories out of the education system is not an acceptable solution. They underpin so much of our cultural identity that not teaching them is just short changing kids.

141 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:00:15pm

re: #132 freetoken


The power of the mind that lets a person differentiate "religion" from "The Bible is the revealed truth of God" is itself a rather amazing phenomena, a human trait with which we all must deal.

See, to my mind, revealed scripture is, as it were, a "fact on the ground" for those who believe in revelation; religion is just sort of how they work out what it means and what they're supposed to do with it. The idea, however, that the Author of this revelation should somehow require His creatures to disregard the evidence within creation itself is so repugnant (and so subversive of revelation; if the physical creation of the Divine is deceptive, how much more so must be the words, as these were transmitted by mere humans?) as to make any respect for scripture impossible for any thinking person.

I wonder how many atheists have been created by creationists?

142 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:00:24pm

re: #87 mockery jones

i have no problem with the creationist version being taught, as long as other interpretations are taught as well.

Understanding the Christian genesis story gives kids at the very least a literary understanding the text that will aide their comprehension when they come across references in classic and modern English lit.

I can't imagine reading authors like Daniel Defoe or Orson Scott Card without a basic understanding of biblical literature.

What in the hell does the Genesis story have to do with SCIENCE?

Should we start teaching cooking in English Lit?

143 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:01:03pm

re: #139 Syrah

Do not disrespect the Prophet of the Turtles!

Keep it up unbeliever and we will have you tossed off the south side of the turtle stack and let me tell you, the accumulated pile of turtle dung from an infinite stack of turtles is a mighty unpleasant place to be condemned to for eternity!

I like that, you can be The High Inquisitor of Turtles.

*can I steal that?*

144 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:01:46pm

re: #134 jcm

Here's an interesting fact about Turtle Cosmology I just learned....
Chukwa

In Hindu mythology, Chukwa is the first and oldest turtle, supporting the Earth.

Laputa is a fictional flying island or rock with an adamantine base, that can be maneuvered by its inhabitants in any direction using magnetic levitation.

145 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:01:49pm

re: #141 Guanxi88

[SNIP]
I wonder how many atheists have been created by creationists?

I can tell you from personal experience that creationists actually help create agnostics. Happened to me, lasted for nearly 15 years.

146 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:02:57pm

re: #143 jcm

I like that, you can be The High Inquisitor of Turtles.

*can I steal that?*

Steal away.

I think that we deserve an equal space on the text book sticker, yes?

147 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:02:57pm

re: #115 Thanos

The way these threads go the DI trolls will wait until Charles posts on a new subject, and the crowd is gone before they show up to try once more to deconstruct science.

So they're like the global warming trolls who wait until the thread dies down before dinging everyone down and spouting nonsense?

148 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:03:23pm

re: #123 Maximu§

Christianity is being attacked from all sides and now we're seeing Christians push back...I may not totally agree with the Texas State Board of Education's agenda, but its nice to see Christian's standing their ground and drawing a line in the sand.


The Sensuous Curmudgeon wrote an interesting essay about this idea:

"The first thing that must be addressed is the Big Lie that the theory of evolution is a 150 year-old front for atheism, racism, liberalism, sexual perversion, socialism, communism, fascism, Stalin, Hitler, etc. Until the Big Lie is dealt with, no rational discourse is possible. Unfortunately, this may be where your debate bogs down, but that’s okay because it’s where the debate belongs.

The Big Lie is the principal source of all the confusion about evolution in the public’s mind. (The leading promoters of creationism and ID probably aren’t confused at all, but they know a good scam when they see it.) If your opponent can be persuaded that evolution isn’t an immense, generations-long scheme for promoting all the world’s evils, then the evidence can often be allowed to speak for itself. But while the creationist believes that he’s engaged in a grand battle of good against evil, there is no hope of any effective communication."


[Link: sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com...]

149 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:03:43pm

re: #145 jwb7605

I can tell you from personal experience that creationists actually help create agnostics. Happened to me, lasted for nearly 15 years.

Much the same thing with my wife. Real hard-core literalist background; all they needed was a few snakes to pass around, and they'd be right past the edge of fringe and into the realm of anthropology.

With time and education, she returned to the texts and read them with fresh eyes and a furnished mind.

150 Gella  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:04:02pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I am wondering do they know what year that is?

151 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:04:45pm

re: #144 Killgore Trout

Here's an interesting fact about Turtle Cosmology I just learned....
Chukwa

Is Laputa a refuge or can we exile moonbats there?

152 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:04:56pm

re: #140 mockery jones

-That sounds more like a university course.
-Science shouldn't be used to shape cultural identity.

153 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:04:59pm

re: #40 Charles

And by the way, when I refer to the Discovery Institute as
creationists, it's very deliberate and intended to point out their
essential dishonesty. I refuse to honor their claim that "intelligent
design" is distinct from creationism -- it's the same smelly old
flea-bitten wolf in new sheep's clothing.

Not true. Creationism specifically credits (typically) a Jewish, Christian, or Islamic God. All three religions look to Genesis as authoritative to some degree and purpose. In contrast, Intelligent Design is agnostic. It credits some form of intelligence as the source of design and engineering of living things, but takes no position on whether the source is a single being, multiple beings, extraterrestrial (perhaps originating in one of Carl Sagan's millions of life-supporting planets), or whatever, even God.

This misnomer makes as much sense as identifying all Democrats as Communists, all Republicans as Conservatives, all Germans as Nazis, and so on. It might make it easier to attack ID as not scientific, but it does not come close to the truth.

Most astrophyicists accept the beginning of the "big bang" as a discontinuity where the present universe came into existence. This does NOT make them creationists, nor do they use this as a nefarious way of bringing God into science classrooms.

-sk

154 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:05:10pm

re: #140 mockery jones

Should we teach the creation stories of all faiths in science class?

155 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:05:31pm

Proof!

Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
The flowers appear on the earth;
the time of the singing of birds is come,
and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land.

–The Holy Bible, Isaiah 2:10-12 (Song of Solomon)

156 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:06:00pm

re: #149 Guanxi88

Much the same thing with my wife. Real hard-core literalist background; all they needed was a few snakes to pass around, and they'd be right past the edge of fringe and into the realm of anthropology.

With time and education, she returned to the texts and read them with fresh eyes and a furnished mind.

Like JCM's post #32, which I favorited.
Don't anybody tell him. Big head, and all ...

157 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:06:41pm

re: #146 Syrah

Steal away.

I think that we deserve an equal space on the text book sticker, yes?

Heck yah, the new school year, all creation stories all the time. Turtles right after the Haidia Raven creation story.

158 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:06:54pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

Should we teach the creation stories of all faiths in science class?

What part of NO should I mention?

159 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:06:54pm

I understand the attraction of creationism to conservatism: In a way it seems natural.The KJV of the Bible encourages it. Every translation of a text is an interpretation. I have found in the KJV every literary device that I am aware of, ie., alliteration, hyperbole, parable, fable, onomatopoeia, etc. The Bible is not a book to rely on for scientific truth (On LGF, the preceding could come from the Department of Redundancy Department).

160 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:07:33pm

re: #140 mockery jones

If I were teaching a history of science class I would have no problem including the Bible (and other ancient literature) to show how over time humans have had to struggle to come to understand the word around them and their place in it.

However, check out the link to the Harun Yahya interview I posted in the spin-off links. The author makes a conclusion about Oktar:

Refuting evolution is a means to that end

That applies to what is happening in Texas and other states. For all the pretense nobility that the ID crowd likes to posture, the reality is that in the end it is the same old story - wanting to take control of society to promulgate one's own worldview.

161 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:07:37pm

re: #140 mockery jones

re: #93 Basho

i don't see why it couldn't be used in a science classroom. have you ever seen the episode of the discovery channel's the universe "beyond the big bang", it showed how our understanding evolved from the creation stories to the theories of the modern sciences. there is no reason a science class could not be conducted in the same manner; showing creationist ideas as part of the evolution of ideas that have lead to the modern understanding of life the universe and everything.....

whether the creationists like that place in the curriculum or not is immaterial. It satisfies the demand for the ideas to be taught without sacrificing the post enlightenment discoveries of the modern sciences. Leaving the creation stories out of the education system is not an acceptable solution. They underpin so much of our cultural identity that not teaching them is just short changing kids.

I'm sorry.. I never Down ding posters. I had to down ding you..If you or any of your buds try to teach that shit to my kids..we have an issue.
Look you teach pure science in the classroom or you are fired.
You can teach any thing you want in sunday school..You friggin stay out of the science classroom..there is NO middle ground. Period!

162 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:07:48pm

re: #159 BatGuano

I understand the attraction of creationism to conservatism: In a way it seems natural.The KJV of the Bible encourages it. Every translation of a text is an interpretation. I have found in the KJV every literary device that I am aware of, ie., alliteration, hyperbole, parable, fable, onomatopoeia, etc. The Bible is not a book to rely on for scientific truth (On LGF, the preceding could come from the Department of Redundancy Department).

Welcome. Colonel bat Guano, if that is your name. Have you got any change?

163 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:07:57pm

re: #153 Spar Kling

What a crock, how many non-abrahmic members of the DI can you name?

164 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:08:14pm

re: #153 Spar Kling

We were wondering when you were going to show up and spew your tripe...

165 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:08:29pm

re: #147 Wendya

So they're like the global warming trolls who wait until the thread dies down before dinging everyone down and spouting nonsense?

Eggs Ackly.

166 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:09:44pm

Attn: Dirty girls....

But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.


-Leviticus 15:19-30

167 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:10:03pm

re: #147 Wendya

So they're like the global warming trolls who wait until the thread dies down before dinging everyone down and spouting nonsense?

Roger, Oveur...

/Airplane!

168 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:10:46pm

Not a single cat mention in the Bible.

169 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:11:00pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

Not a single cat mention in the Bible.

And not without reason.

170 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:11:12pm

re: #153 Spar Kling

No- the history of "theistic realism" shows you're quite wrong:

In 1987 Johnson became convinced that creationists had lost in Edwards v. Aguillard because in his opinion the methodological naturalism used by the scientific community in defining science does not include supernatural processes, and therefore unfairly excluded creationism. He concluded that creationists must therefore redefine science to restore the supernatural, and developed the Wedge Strategy. The intelligent design movement was begun by the authors and publishers of Of Pandas and People in 1989, and Johnson later became its de-facto leader.

These are not agnostic people.

171 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:11:23pm

re: #157 jcm

Heck yah, the new school year, all creation stories all the time. Turtles right after the Haidia Raven creation story.

And don't forget the Wisakedjak (Whiskey Jack) stories too. There may not be much of a book left after we load it up with stickers but what the heck, if the DI loons let the camel push his nose under the tent . . .

172 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:12:01pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Attn: Dirty girls....

-Leviticus 15:19-30

What do you think mikvahs are for?

173 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:12:08pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Attn: Dirty girls....


-Leviticus 15:19-30

Actually, it should be turtle doves.

All sacrifices need to be from kosher animals; turtles, not chewing their cud or having cloven hooves, are not kosher.
And even if some live in the water, they don't have fins and scales.

174 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:12:37pm

re: #140 mockery jones

Leaving the supernatural explanation out of science is always a must, just as leaving out non empirical notions on math is essential to math. If you want to believe that 1+1=3.24 then you are quite welcome to, but to teach that in math would be wrong, just as bringing in supernatural explanations is inimical to scientific empircism.

175 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:12:49pm

re: #129 VegasRick

updinged.

Your a good Man Rick. I don't like extremists on ether side...I dislike the far-right Christian's just as much as I dislike the Pure secularists who want to erase Christianity from our culture.

America was built on Judeo-Christian values.

176 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:13:46pm

re: #152 Basho

"science shouldn't be used to shape our cultural identity?"

what then should? and what has more in the past 150 years?

177 Kenneth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:13:48pm

re: #105 Kosh's Shadow

The common point of divergence is not a simple cartesian coordinate, but the universe does point back to a common point in time & space.

178 Kenneth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:14:24pm

re: #88 HoosierHoops

What's 1.2 billion betwen friends?

179 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:14:50pm

re: #170 Sharmuta

No- the history of "theistic realism" shows you're quite wrong:

These are not agnostic people.

They are agnostic on the question of how long the blasphemous Catholics, Buddhists, Chemists, and other devil-worshippers will be tolerated by the Almighty Sky-god that they have mistaken for the Creator of heaven and earth and the soul of man. Some folks think not much longer, others think maybe a bit longer, but they're all pretty sure that at some point they'll be in charge of things.

180 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:14:53pm

re: #178 Kenneth

What's 1.2 billion betwen friends?

in a few years, the price of a hamburger.

181 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:15:13pm

re: #162 Guanxi88

Yeah, but I'd have to answer to the Coca Cola company.

182 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:15:14pm

Philip Johnson, not being agnostic about the neo-creationist Intelligent Design movement:

[Link: books.google.com...]

183 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:15:21pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

why not?

it's sure better than teaching about billy having two daddies. better use of time too.....

184 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:15:46pm

re: #178 Kenneth

What's 1.2 billion betwen friends?

Especially these days, eh?

185 Kenneth  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:11pm

re: #91 n in wi

From what I read, Palin believes in God's creation, and she also believes in validity of science. You'll have to ask her for more detail.

186 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:14pm

re: #175 Maximu§

Your a good Man Rick. I don't like extremists on ether side...I dislike the far-right Christian's just as much as I dislike the Pure secularists who want to erase Christianity from our culture.

America was built on Judeo-Christian values.

With a great deal of cement from Greco-Roman philosophy. Everyone neglects to mention the component that brought in reason, the renaissance, and the end of tyranny based on religious right.

187 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:27pm

re: #181 BatGuano

Yeah, but I'd have to answer to the Coca Cola company.

Watched that wonderful film last night; easily the 20th time I've seen it, and it keeps getting better every single time.

188 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:43pm

re: #183 mockery jones

why not?

it's sure better than teaching about billy having two daddies. better use of time too.....

Warning... debating tactics in use... proceed with caution...

189 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:50pm

re: #147 Wendya

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

190 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:51pm

re: #122 Wendya

Hell, the left lies about everything and they are completely shameless.

AGW among other ideas haven't exactly made science look invincible lately.

I use my extended family as a gauge of how things stand. My father, a University Professor, accepts that some AGW exists. He voted for Obama and tends toward the Democrats unless there is a strong, intellectually honest candidate from the GOP. The religious right is the tipping point on most of his decisions. I think out of my large family, my household was the only one that held our noses and voted for McCain, (and ours only barely.)

191 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:16:53pm

re: #174 Thanos

Leaving the supernatural explanation out of science is always a must, just as leaving out non empirical notions on math is essential to math. If you want to believe that 1+1=3.24 then you are quite welcome to, but to teach that in math would be wrong, just as bringing in supernatural explanations is inimical to scientific empircism.

I don't understand the need to bring the supernatural into science.

192 itellu3times  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:17:26pm

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Except in the case of the brains of the ID'rs.

193 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:17:42pm

re: #184 Guanxi88

Especially these days, eh?

Give it a couple years and we will have billion dollar notes with George Washington on them. Inflation is going to suck!

194 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:19:01pm

re: #169 Guanxi88

I like dogs, my wife likes cats. We 3 cats , no dogs.

195 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:19:32pm

re: #193 BBev

Give it a couple years and we will have billion dollar notes with George Washington on them. Inflation is going to suck!

Government issued zero stickers to put on bills. Check the current rate to see how many zeros to apply today.

196 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:19:35pm

re: #185 Kenneth

From what I read, Palin believes in God's creation, and she also believes in validity of science. You'll have to ask her for more detail.

The way I heard (read) her answer the question in an interview, I wouldn't discount her being a creationist, and she clearly stated that whatever your view is should be perfectly legal. She gave kind of a "state's rights" answer, aimed at a town level.

197 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:19:54pm

re: #192 itellu3times

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Except in the case of the brains of the ID'rs.

and the UFO cults, and numerous other pseudo-scientific nutball groups who attack science from the left as well.

198 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:19:55pm

re: #183 mockery jones

why not?

it's sure better than teaching about billy having two daddies. better use of time too.....

Do they teach that Billy has two daddies in science classes?

199 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:19:57pm

re: #175 Maximu§

I don't like extremists on ether side...I dislike the far-right Christian's just as much as I dislike the Pure secularists who want to erase Christianity from our culture.

America was built on Judeo-Christian values.

Well said. Updinged again

200 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:20:04pm

re: #177 Kenneth

The common point of divergence is not a simple cartesian coordinate, but the universe does point back to a common point in time & space.

Time and space; 4 dimensions, yes. I have to explain this to students in an online course, so I end up assuming others don't know it.

201 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:20:23pm

re: #176 mockery jones

"science shouldn't be used to shape our cultural identity?"

what then should? and what has more in the past 150 years?

Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge" or "knowing") is the effort to discover, and increase human understanding of how the physical world works.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

202 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:20:57pm

re: #193 BBev

Give it a couple years and we will have billion dollar notes with George Washington on them. Inflation is going to suck!

I wonder if Barney Frank and Chris Dodd will get their own bills. I mean, hell, it will will be largely their doing to begin with.

203 LGoPs  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:21:00pm

re: #194 BatGuano

I like dogs, my wife likes cats. We 3 cats , no dogs.

My guess is.....you must like your wife.......
:)

204 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:21:18pm

re: #189 Basho

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

With all due respect, fuck off.

205 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:21:21pm

re: #175 Maximu§

I am weary of the abuse "secularism" has received. Our government was founded as secular and should remain so. Here is the definition. As for "secularists" pushing Christianity out of our culture- that is over stating it by a long shot. We have the right to Free Exercise, so it could never happen.

As for our founding as a nation, there were other influences besides Christianity that our Founders used to establish our Independence and government. That's just a historical fact. You snub the depth of the Wisdom of the Founders to neglect it.

206 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:21:23pm

re: #191 jcm

I don't understand the need to bring the supernatural into science.

Folks try to smuggle the supernatural in because, to their minds, the supernatural is being pushed out. They sincerely hold these beliefs, and have furnished their minds with them. In some sort of general way, the accept the validity of science (in some cases, they use the technology, and that's about it), and naturally assume that scientists would return the favor by accepting the validity of religion or revelation.

Problem is, revelation can incorporate reason of science; science cannot incorporate revelation without ceasing to be science. You can be a practicing Catholic mathematician, but you cannot practice Catholic mathematics. (Except for multiplication, huh? I kid, I kid....)

207 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:21:30pm

re: #187 Guanxi88

Watched that wonderful film last night; easily the 20th time I've seen it, and it keeps getting better every single time.

We need a Gen. Jack D. Ripper now; "nuklear combat toe-to-toe with the Eye-ranians".

208 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:21:53pm

In Texas, the inmates are running the asylum. What troubles me most is the children who remain ignorant of basic science and the scientific method. They're the kids who can't afford a fancy private school.

The proponents of creationism and "intelligent" design on the Texas Board of Education are guilty of child abuse of poor children who lack the means to defend themselves. They use religion as a weapon and a demonic means to enhance their own power, self-importance, and theistic political ambitions. I devoutly wish them in hell.

209 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:22:12pm
210 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:22:39pm

re: #207 Kosh's Shadow

We need a Gen. Jack D. Ripper now; "nuklear combat toe-to-toe with the Eye-ranians".

Hell, I'd take a Turgidson at this point. Anything.

211 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:23:09pm

re: #204 Wendya

With all due respect, fuck off.

lol...
Back atcha.

212 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:24:05pm

is it too late to give Texas back to Mexico?

213 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:24:35pm

re: #173 Kosh's Shadow

All sacrifices need to be from kosher animals; turtles, not chewing their cud or having cloven hooves, are not kosher.
And even if some live in the water, they don't have fins and scales.


Interesting.

214 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:24:52pm

re: #212 SpaceJesus

I think you'll like this:
[Link: www.gocomics.com...]

215 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:25:03pm

re: #189 Basho

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

From your link:

(Part of the How to Talk to a Global Warming Skeptic guide)

Objection: Current warming is just part of a natural cycle.

Answer: While it is undoubtedly true that there are natural cycles and variations in global climate, those who insist that current warming is purely natural -- or even mostly natural -- have two challenges.

First, they need to identify the mechanism behind this alleged natural cycle. Absent a forcing of some sort, there will be no change in global energy balance.

Absent of a forcing mechanism?
They are forgetting something.

216 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:25:47pm

re: #202 Syrah

I wonder if Barney Frank and Chris Dodd will get their own bills. I mean, hell, it will will be largely their doing to begin with.

I'm sure there faces will be on the welfare checks we will all be getting after there are no jobs left here in America, Man I am so fucking happy the NAFA got passed so we can all have these fantastic service jobs just WOW.

217 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:26:05pm

re: #212 SpaceJesus

is it too late to give Texas back to Mexico?

Screw that! Screw that one sideways. (although immigration and demographics suggest that this is happening already. As we say here: Visit Mexico this summer, or wait next year, and it'll come to you.)

218 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:26:20pm

re: #164 talon_262

We were wondering when you were going to show up and spew your tripe...

And how does this answer my assertion? "We" hides behind the collective, "spew" and "tripe" are simply ad hominim attacks against my person.

-sk

219 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:26:48pm

re: #214 Basho

I think you'll like this:
[Link: www.gocomics.com...]


apparently it hasn't evolved there just yet

220 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:27:00pm

Hola, lizards! I wish I had more to say this evening.

221 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:27:04pm

re: #212 SpaceJesus

You seem to have a knack for being exceptionally ill-mannered.

222 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:27:54pm

re: #198 Wendya

biology and health were the same class when i was in 6th grade......so yes.

223 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:28:09pm

re: #18 ceemack

Only if you have an acid wit.

I hear Frank Luntz is gathering a panel of neutrals to get their opinion.

224 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:28:53pm
225 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:28:56pm

Then there are trolls who try to derail DI threads into Global warming threads as well. It's part of the agenda at DI. Post Kitzmiller decision they've broadened the base of attacks on science to include global warming theory, neuropsychiatry, and other things because they realize they can't win at all by attacking evolution alone. No, they have to attack all of science as this particular ploy by the TX board demonstrates.

226 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:29:03pm

re: #217 Guanxi88

Screw that! Screw that one sideways. (although immigration and demographics suggest that this is happening already. As we say here: Visit Mexico this summer, or wait next year, and it'll come to you.)

what's so bad about Mexico? at least they don't have a problem with teaching creationist nonsense in their schools. It would do Texas good.

227 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:30:04pm

re: #222 mockery jones

biology and health were the same class when i was in 6th grade......so yes.

Was health taught as biology?

228 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:30:17pm

The First evolution thread on LGF?
Krauthammer: Phony Theory, False Conflict

229 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:30:24pm

re: #215 jcm

"they" (whoever that is) have not forgotten about the sun... all climate research includes the sun, its short term as well as long term changes.

But here we are again... finding topics that will somehow avoid the real issue (of the keypost by Charles.)

Usually it is climate change, but other methods include homosexuality, abortion, socialism, ad naseum.

Fine, argue all you want to about those topics, but at least come to an understanding of what you are doing... trying to find common ground with hoped-for allies... Logically, one can discuss the topic of ID/creationism and it's political and social influence without having to beat up on some other group... but in discussions such as this one my suspicion is that the topic of ID is just cover for other, deeper, issues.

230 Guanxi88  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:30:37pm

re: #218 Spar Kling

And how does this answer my assertion? "We" hides behind the collective, "spew" and "tripe" are simply ad hominim attacks against my person.

-sk

"We" hides not collective. "We" simply referes to a plurality of persons; it does not suggest that that the author is sitting as Locutus for the Borg, here. (It's a reference to a TV series from some years ago.)

No, "dirt-bag," "moron," "huckster," - those are ad hominen

Spew is a verb, and tripe is a delicacy to some deranged folk.

The terms are also used in invective, with "spew" carrying the meaning of "periodically ejecting masses of unpleasant, unwanted lies, evasions, and jack-assery", and "tripe" meaning, in this case, "bilge, codswaddle, palpable nonsense."

As a literalist, I understand your difficulties with higher linguistic functions such as these, and will work to accommodate you if possible.

231 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:30:39pm

re: #226 SpaceJesus

what's so bad about Mexico?

It's a paradise. Mexico is in the process of building a wall to keep Americans out, it's such a paradise.

232 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:31:07pm

re: #228 Killgore Trout

I think the first was over 'Expelled'.

233 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:31:14pm

re: #40 Charles

And by the way, when I refer to the Discovery Institute as creationists

I wish there were a less ambiguous term than "creationism." The obvious problem with it is that it can be taken as including any belief that there is a Creator behind the universe -- although the meaning that Charles is going for would be something like:

creationism, n. -- "Any doctrine which posits that after going to the considerable trouble of devising the laws of physics and chemistry, the Creator for some reason felt obliged to suspend these laws in order to produce living things"

In case any lizards have friends who are besmitten by Intelligent Design, point out that ID logically asserts that God was too incompetent to create a self-running Universe that would tend to produce intelligent life all by itself, via naturalistic evolution, without His supernatural intervention.

Also, note the one essential difference between Theistic Evolution and Intelligent Design. While TE is open to the possibility that God could choose to intervene in the evolutionary process, any such intervention is assumed to be purely optional -- because TE is also open to the possibility that God could've chosen a radical laissez-faire approach to governing the universe, and allowed life to evolve by naturalistic processes.

But ID mandates divine intervention in evolution, saying that life as we know it could not have evolved naturalistically -- that's the whole point of the "irreducible complexity" stuff. And ID denies the possibility of naturalistic evolution in hope of "proving" God (or more specifically, the version of God that the ID pusher happens to believe in, which may not be your version).

The thing is, though, while ID advocates are mainly obsessed with "proving" God and thereby "disproving" atheism, you can't reject a purely atheistic model of evolution without also rejecting the "God pushed the Big Bang button and then let the universe evolve on its own" model -- since, from our human perspective, these two models look identical.

And rejecting the "God pushed the Big Bang button" model takes us back to "God was too incompetent to set up the starting conditions in such a way that the evolution of intelligent life was inevitable."

234 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:31:36pm
235 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:31:52pm

re: #187 Guanxi88

I remember the trailer for it when I was 9 years old. I have it on dvd and watch it every now and then. It does get better with age.

236 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:32:00pm

re: #228 Killgore Trout

The First evolution thread on LGF?
Krauthammer: Phony Theory, False Conflict


The big bang ?

237 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:32:59pm

Sigh. I wish we could not call them social conservatives. I am a social conservative - meaning I am conservative on social legislation issues such as gay marriage and abortion on demand. I don't believe morality is relative, etc. etc. I do believe people have every right to practice their religion - but not an unfettered right, or one that occurs at the expense of others. Want to teach creationism under the guise of science? Go ahead. Just do it in a private school where my tax dollars don't come in to play. Want to teach that dinosaurs were a mode of transport? Knock yourself out - but again, on your dime, not mine. Just note that the children you churn out will be at a distinct disadvantage in the real world.

end of rant.

238 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:33:27pm

re: #231 Sharmuta

It's a paradise. Mexico is in the process of building a wall to keep Americans out, it's such a paradise.


I hear they have these people called Coyotes who are smuggling teenagers down to Cancun for Spring Break

239 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:33:35pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I think this is supporting part of what you say.

240 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:34:18pm

re: #228 Killgore Trout

The First evolution thread on LGF?
Krauthammer: Phony Theory, False Conflict

I can't believe the Stealth ID Dingers haven't dinged that thread down yet.

241 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:34:37pm

re: #203 LGoPs

You nailed it!

242 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:35:04pm

From the Wedge Strategy, we can see that neo-creationism (ID) is not just non-agnostic, but sectarian:

5. Spiritual & cultural renewal:

- Mainline renewal movements begin to appropriate insights from design theory, and to repudiate theologies influenced by materialism
- Major Christian denomination(s) defend(s) traditional doctrine of creation & repudiate(s)
- Darwinism Seminaries increasingly recognize & repudiate naturalistic presuppositions
- Positive uptake in public opinion polls on issues such as sexuality, abortion and belief in God

[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

243 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:35:34pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

I am weary of the abuse "secularism" has received. Our government was founded as secular and should remain so. Here is the definition. As for "secularists" pushing Christianity out of our culture- that is over stating it by a long shot. We have the right to Free Exercise, so it could never happen.

As for our founding as a nation, there were other influences besides Christianity that our Founders used to establish our Independence and government. That's just a historical fact. You snub the depth of the Wisdom of the Founders to neglect it.

Ah, the down-dinger speaks up.

Yes, there is a clear separation from Church-and-State, but Christian VALUES are ingrained into most Americans and those VALUES have made us a great country. If given a choice, I would rather see the 10 Commandments on a classroom wall, than phone numbers to the nearest abortion clinic.

244 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:35:53pm
245 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:36:34pm

re: #225 Thanos

Then there are trolls who try to derail DI threads into Global warming threads as well. It's part of the agenda at DI. Post Kitzmiller decision they've broadened the base of attacks on science to include global warming theory, neuropsychiatry, and other things because they realize they can't win at all by attacking evolution alone. No, they have to attack all of science as this particular ploy by the TX board demonstrates.

And who do they have to thank for that? The same people who bought into the idea that even though we don't understand every aspect of the earth's mechanisms for regulating climate, humans are causing the ice to melt in Antarctica and the seas to rise.

246 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:36:43pm

re: #215 jcm

From your link:

(Part of the How to Talk to a Global Warming Skeptic guide)

Objection: Current warming is just part of a natural cycle.

Answer: While it is undoubtedly true that there are natural cycles and variations in global climate, those who insist that current warming is purely natural -- or even mostly natural -- have two challenges.

First, they need to identify the mechanism behind this alleged natural cycle. Absent a forcing of some sort, there will be no change in global energy balance.

Absent of a forcing mechanism?
They are forgetting something.

So why should the anti-GW people have to prove it but the GW people don't? Our climate models are interesting, but really need more work, and they aren't going to get better if we require them to be politically correct, instead of scientifically correct.

I support more research on climate, but the models need to be compared with what is actually happening, AND we should include models that don't involve man-made changes to see how much that really makes.
Unfortunately, putting in preconceived ideas guarantees garbage out.

247 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:37:15pm

re: #232 Sharmuta

We're both wrong....
Becoming Human from 2001. No comments.

Also this one from 2001: evolution: don't knock it if you haven't tried it

only one comment. Heh.

248 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:37:33pm

re: #243 Maximu§

I up ding too. I up dinged you the other day. Sh'ant happen again, even if I should agree with you. Pity you were unbanned, imo.

249 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:37:57pm
250 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:38:10pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

I'm going to up ding them!

251 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:38:14pm

re: #240 Bloodnok

I think the rating system gets disabled after a week or so.

252 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:38:15pm

re: #243 Maximu§

Ah, the down-dinger speaks up.

Yes, there is a clear separation from Church-and-State, but Christian VALUES are ingrained into most Americans and those VALUES have made us a great country. If given a choice, I would rather see the 10 Commandments on a classroom wall, than phone numbers to the nearest abortion clinic.

I agree with you soooooooo much on that one, It will be a sad day when America is no longer a Christian nation.

253 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:38:38pm

re: #229 freetoken

They being the authors of the web site in this case. They attempt to debunk the nature climate cycles in favor of AGW by showing the climate cycles need a driver, conveniently leaving out the main driver.

The web site was linked as an attempt to show science is wrong, wrong on CC and wrong on ID. However the attempt to show science wrong, left out key parameters.

Nice circular argument, proving science is wrong pointing to bad science as proof.

254 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:38:52pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

Ha! You can ding them up. That's too funny.

255 Spar Kling  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:39:00pm

re: #230 Guanxi88

"We" hides not collective. "We" simply referes to a plurality of
persons; it does not suggest that that the author is sitting as Locutus
for the Borg, here. (It's a reference to a TV series from some years
ago.)

No, "dirt-bag," "moron," "huckster," - those are ad hominen

Spew is a verb, and tripe is a delicacy to some deranged folk.

The terms are also used in invective, with "spew" carrying the
meaning of "periodically ejecting masses of unpleasant, unwanted lies,
evasions, and jack-assery", and "tripe" meaning, in this case, "bilge,
codswaddle, palpable nonsense."

As a literalist, I understand your difficulties with higher
linguistic functions such as these, and will work to accommodate you if
possible.

I said that the "we" hides behind the collective. Spew is indeed a verb and moron is a noun. In the context of the reply, this was simply an ad hominem attack regardless of the parts of speech used. And in any case nothing of substance was added to the argument.

Glad to return the favor.

-sk

256 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:39:26pm

re: #207 Kosh's Shadow
Someone must protect our precious bodily fluids. We must deny them our essence!

257 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:39:29pm

re: #212 SpaceJesus

Well bless your heart.

258 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:39:46pm

re: #252 BBev

I agree with you soooooooo much on that one, It will be a sad day when America is no longer a Christian nation.

There is a huge difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.

259 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:39:47pm

re: #233 Throbert McGee

Excellent post. I hope some people who think they believe in ID but really believe in TE will realize the difference.

260 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:39:53pm

re: #237 ArmyWife
I agree and thank you for being able to express it how I wish I would have.

261 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:40:04pm

re: #188 freetoken

fair enough. i honed my teeth on the middle east news boards on yahoo a long time ago. a better and harder debate school there has never been.

i'm not for teaching creationism in a science class. i will not come out for it, as has been said it makes more sense in a lit class, but it really wouldn't bother me if my children were exposed to it in school.

for the record, i have no religious affiliation. i got to houses of worship for weddings and funerals only.

262 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:40:15pm

re: #258 Wendya

There is a huge difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.

I agree

263 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:40:44pm

re: #55 Kosh's Shadow

This is one of the reasons why the Founding Fathers tried so hard to abolish the whole notion of political parties altogether, making the Constitution free of such nonsense. Sadly it didn't last and we are stuck with the consequences of venal party politicking.

264 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:40:46pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

I think the rating system gets disabled after a week or so.

I was still able to upding the post, but you are correct, the comment ratings are disabled after awhile.

265 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:41:00pm

re: #244 taxfreekiller

Mexico is as or more dangerous than either Afghanistan or Iraq.

compared to Texas, it is a wonderland of education and enlightenment though

266 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:41:40pm

Sarah Palin is definitely a creationist, by the way. There's no doubt about it from her statements. I defended her during the campaign on the grounds that she never tried to promote it as Governor, and seemed clear that it was a private belief, not a government matter.

267 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:41:46pm

re: #246 Kosh's Shadow

... but the models need to be compared with what is actually happening, AND we should include models that don't involve man-made changes to see how much that really makes.

That's been done, and made quite public, over and over.

Likely you won't like the answer....

268 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:41:47pm

re: #258 Wendya

There is a huge difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.


Thank you!

269 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:41:51pm

re: #248 Sharmuta

I up ding too. I up dinged you the other day. Sh'ant happen again, even if I should agree with you. Pity you were unbanned, imo.

Another cheap shot. Your no longer worth talking to.

270 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:41:51pm

re: #265 SpaceJesus

compared to Texas, it is a wonderland of education and enlightenment though

Isn't there a light socket around somewhere waiting for you to stick your finger in it?

271 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:42:20pm

re: #253 jcm

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

272 rain of lead  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:42:34pm

hey guys
had a great day
took the young'un to the ringling bros circus today
had a blast, great clean innocent fun
any of ya'll have circus memories?

273 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:42:41pm

re: #261 mockery jones

Are you incapable of exposing your children to creation stories?

274 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:43:17pm

re: #266 Charles

I'm still not thrilled with her support for a gay marriage ban to the constitution. I wish she'd keep that as a private matter too.

275 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:43:20pm

re: #269 Maximu§

Another cheap shot. Your no longer worth talking to.

Another? Where was the first? Seems to me, you started with the cheap shots.

276 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:43:55pm

re: #244 taxfreekiller

Mexico is as or more dangerous than either Afghanistan or Iraq.

I read that US Marine's form Pendleton were not allowed to go into Mexico except with written premission.

277 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:44:09pm

Personally, I'm against teaching religion in the schools because the teacher would almost be certain not to be my religion.

On other science news, we started doing just a fun science activity in the homeschool group. I'm leading it. We did magnetism last Thursday; lots of fun you can have with magnets and static electricity. My good news? The kids who come to my house for science knew the answers to the questions I asked! Made my day. (I'm not putting the other kids down; I don't expect 7 year-olds to know proton/neutron/electron. Well, unless I taught it to them just a few months earlier.)

Sorry to bring in the personal, but it made my day.

278 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:44:21pm

re: #233 Throbert McGee

We are stuck with imperfect people and an imperfect means of communication. Look at the simple word "theory" and how it can get confused when it is used in science and used nearly everywhere else.

279 CynicalConservative  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:44:36pm

re: #269 Maximu§

Another cheap shot. Your no longer worth talking to.

Pot, meet kettle. Piss off. I'll take Shar's opinion any day over your spew.

280 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:45:57pm
281 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:46:33pm

re: #266 Charles

Sarah Palin is definitely a creationist, by the way. There's no doubt about it from her statements. I defended her during the campaign on the grounds that she never tried to promote it as Governor, and seemed clear that it was a private belief, not a government matter.

As long as her private beliefs do not become a bully pulpit and public policy, what she believes is for me irrelevant. But it still does dull a bit of her shine.

282 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:46:50pm

there is a lot of animosity on this website sometimes towards people with creative solutions for problems

283 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:46:54pm

re: #273 Sharmuta

No I am not.

*bites back snarky reply in effort to be cordial*

Relevance?

284 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:47:05pm

re: #267 freetoken

That's been done, and made quite public, over and over.

Likely you won't like the answer....

The models I hear of aren't perfect; they tend to not properly handle the effects of clouds and other effects, and require too large cells to be that accurate.

285 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:47:33pm

re: #281 FurryOldGuyJeans

As long as her private beliefs do not become a bully pulpit and public policy, what she believes is for me irrelevant. But it still does dull a bit of her shine.

It would dull her shine for me if she had no beliefs.

286 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:47:37pm

re: #123 Maximu§

Its too bad there can't be some kind of middle-ground that we can all agree to. Christianity is being attacked from all sides and now we're seeing Christians push back...I may not totally agree with the Texas State Board of Education's agenda, but its nice to see Christian's standing their ground and drawing a line in the sand.

The school system and education is not where any "push-back" should occur.

People should be stronger in their faith at home, express it through their religious services, religion classes, through their everyday actions, and insist that their kids learn and live their faith.

It is interesting to me that you recognize this as a "Christian push-back", whereas Spar Kling in one of the comments here asserted that ID is "agnostic".

287 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:47:55pm

Sharmuta, Thank you for your down ding . It must be hard for you having no faith. My guess you have never experienced to true miracle. I do not support ID in the classroom I believe in evolution but to you any support of the Christian religion is some how offensive to you!

288 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:48:10pm

re: #282 SpaceJesus

This is the nicer gentler LGF. You should have seen this place a few years ago.

289 Steve Rogers  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:48:46pm

re: #140 mockery jones

re: #93 Basho

i don't see why it couldn't be used in a science classroom. have you ever seen the episode of the discovery channel's the universe "beyond the big bang", it showed how our understanding evolved from the creation stories to the theories of the modern sciences. there is no reason a science class could not be conducted in the same manner; showing creationist ideas as part of the evolution of ideas that have lead to the modern understanding of life the universe and everything.....

whether the creationists like that place in the curriculum or not is immaterial. It satisfies the demand for the ideas to be taught without sacrificing the post enlightenment discoveries of the modern sciences. Leaving the creation stories out of the education system is not an acceptable solution. They underpin so much of our cultural identity that not teaching them is just short changing kids.

By that rational, history classes should teach Holocaust Denial. Facts are facts. Evolution is a fact. The Holocaust was a fact. Schools should teach facts. Science is not a democracy where everyone gets equal time.

And knowing about "cultural identity" (whatever that is) will not get a kid a job in the future. But in our every-increasing biotech world, knowing the fundamental basis of all modern biology - evolution - will be the keystone in not just securing jobs for future generations, but helping the United States stay competitive with nations like China and Inida. If the "creationists" get their way, the U.S. will be a 3rd world nation in the area of science withn one or two generations.

290 Sunlight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:49:04pm

Now I'm confused... the thing was defeated so they attached amendments to what? and did the amendments get passed?

291 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:49:11pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

We're both wrong....
Becoming Human from 2001. No comments.

Also this one from 2001: evolution: don't knock it if you haven't tried it

only one comment. Heh.

"Becoming Human" is a great site - it's still there.

Thanks for posting those links - it's good to remind people that I didn't suddenly become "obsessed" with this topic.

292 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:49:14pm

re: #283 mockery jones

If you're capable of teaching your children about creationism, why are you thinking the public schools should do it?

293 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:49:19pm

re: #228 Killgore Trout

The First evolution thread on LGF?
Krauthammer: Phony Theory, False Conflict

Three solid years of logical consistency by our host.

294 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:49:25pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

This is the nicer gentler LGF. You should have seen this place a few years ago.

I miss those days.

295 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:49:31pm

re: #286 reine.de.tout

The school system and education is not where any "push-back" should occur.

People should be stronger in their faith at home, express it through their religious services, religion classes, through their everyday actions, and insist that their kids learn and live their faith.

It is interesting to me that you recognize this as a "Christian push-back", whereas Spar Kling in one of the comments here asserted that ID is "agnostic".

upding.

296 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:50:03pm

re: #271 Basho

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

Solar ultra-violet, visible and heat radiation are the primary factors for the Earth's climate, including global average temperatures, and these energy sources appear to be quite constant.

In your original link any discussion of forcing factors leaving out solar factors is disingenuous.

297 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:50:05pm

BTW, I do believe G-d takes an active interest and control of events, but that He does it by affecting the "random" quantum-mechanical events, not by the equivalent of waving a magic wand and going outside His physical laws.

How awe-inspiring is it that He can see that these tiny changes can create the macroscopic effects He wants. And that He can handle all of them.

And that He created a universe that allowed Him to manipulate it within the physical laws, in the process, making free will possible.

298 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:50:29pm

Are you ready for the Evolution Transition on February 17, 2009?

Make sure you study up on evolution before that important date! After that, those who believe in "creationism" and "Intelligent Design" will no longer be able to take advantage of scientific discoveries of any kind.

Make the transition now!

299 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:50:44pm

re: #252 BBev

I agree with you soooooooo much on that one, It will be a sad day when America is no longer a Christian nation.

Frankly, from my perspective we are no longer a Christian Nation, except in a kneejerk way.
There are more people in malls than in church on Sundays. Our people are not taught in church to think about the world in any "theological' sense. The ignorance of most of the population is staggering when in comes to any comprehensive religious knowledge.
We are a secular nation, however unfortunate that sounds.
It would be interesting to see what some folks would consider are "Christian Values."

300 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:50:48pm

re: #287 BBev

Do not make assumptions. You have no idea of my faith or what I've experienced.

301 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:50:50pm
302 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:52:20pm

I'm wearing a sweatshirt and it's really getting warm in here.
I really appreciate the links and a couple of sage observations, but I need to find a different environment. SciFi channel is doing the Merlin's Apprentice miniseries.

Later!

303 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:52:57pm

re: #300 Sharmuta

Do not make assumptions. You have no idea of my faith or what I've experienced.

This would still be accurate if you removed the last 7 words.
;)

304 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:53:00pm

re: #282 SpaceJesus

there is a lot of animosity on this website sometimes towards people with creative solutions for problems

Is that what you call it? Look Jesus..When you get more downdings than actual posts..there is an issue..
Creative solutions? Give me a break....
/ Here is your real chance to trash talk somebody...Bring your A game pal.

305 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:53:00pm

re: #287 BBev

Umm, Sharm's professed her faith many, many times. I'm your atheist here.

306 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:53:23pm

re: #286 reine.de.tout

i find interesting how that could be viewed as part of the wedge strategy mentioned earlier. driving a wedge between the conservative Christians and the main body politic in order to make them a cohesive source of political capitol to the leaders of the movement.

307 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:53:33pm

re: #266 Charles

Sarah Palin is definitely a creationist, by the way. There's no doubt about it from her statements. I defended her during the campaign on the grounds that she never tried to promote it as Governor, and seemed clear that it was a private belief, not a government matter.

Please understand my intent is not to challenge anyone on this issue. It is to become informed.
A creationist would be acceptable as a candidate,as would an atheist or Buddhist or whatever,as long as it was not the goal to implement private beliefs into public policy ?

308 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:53:52pm

re: #300 Sharmuta

Do not make assumptions. You have no idea of my faith or what I've experienced.

I have been reading you long enough to know quit a bit about you but you have a good night and keep down dinging anyone that has faith.

309 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:53:56pm

re: #282 SpaceJesus

there is a lot of animosity on this website sometimes towards people with creative solutions for problems

There is also a strong belief in following grammatical norms, such as ending your sentence with a period and beginning it with a capital letter.

310 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:54:29pm

re: #269 Maximu§

Another cheap shot. Your no longer worth talking to.

Let's make a comparison here:

Sharmuta
(Logged in)
Registered since: Feb 13, 2007 at 1:54 pm
No. of comments posted: 39,900
No. of links posted: 739


Maximu§
(Logged in)
Registered since: Nov 4, 2006 at 12:58 pm
No. of comments posted: 3,369
No. of links posted: 10

I think I'll listen to the person who's been here less time, and yet has contributed a whole lot more.

311 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:54:41pm

re: #153 Spar Kling

In contrast, Intelligent Design is agnostic. It credits some form of intelligence as the source of design and engineering of living things, but takes no position on whether the source is a single being, multiple beings, extraterrestrial (perhaps originating in one of Carl Sagan's millions of life-supporting planets), or whatever, even God.

You know that you're lying when you post this stuff. And you know that most LGF readers are on to you. Yet you persist. Quote:

The most striking attribute of creationists is that so many of them are persistent, shameless liars.

312 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:54:43pm

re: #293 Thanos

Three solid years of logical consistency by our host.

I stand corrected, 8 yrs of logical consistency.

313 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:54:48pm

re: #272 rain of lead

Yuppers. Summer of '62. I had just turned 7. The Ringling brother Barnum and Bailey Circus in Eugene, Oregon. The smell of popcorn, peanuts, elephant poop,sweat, and straw. Candied apples, no security, horsies, happy people, clowns, midgets, and being young.

314 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:54:52pm

re: #309 EmmmieG

There is also a strong belief in following grammatical norms, such as ending your sentence with a period and beginning it with a capital letter.

But you don't understand, EmmmieG, that's "creative" grammar!

//////////////

315 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:55:12pm

re: #286 reine.de.tout

The school system and education is not where any "push-back" should occur.

People should be stronger in their faith at home, express it through their religious services, religion classes, through their everyday actions, and insist that their kids learn and live their faith.

It is interesting to me that you recognize this as a "Christian push-back", whereas Spar Kling in one of the comments here asserted that ID is "agnostic".

It may not be the right place to make a stand, but at least there is some resistance to where this country is going.

316 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:55:36pm

re: #206 Guanxi88

Folks try to smuggle the supernatural in because, to their minds, the supernatural is being pushed out.

How do you account for the Resurrection of Jesus in naturalistic terms? Well, either:

(A) The Resurrection didn't happen at all;

or

(B) God used nanotech to repair and re-animate the cadaver that was Jesus.

Neither option will look very attractive to traditional Christians, but I can't see any logical reason why Christian doctrine must rule out (B).

317 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:55:39pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

The Radical Islamists have a solution too, and I sure don't want it either.

318 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:55:43pm

re: #308 BBev

What is that supposed to mean?!

319 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:55:44pm

re: #309 EmmmieG

Sorry, I left out the fine print:

There is clemency for typos and late-night posts.
Certain specific lizards doesn't have to follow the rules, they know who they are.

320 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:55:54pm

re: #307 n in wi

Please understand my intent is not to challenge anyone on this issue. It is to become informed.
A creationist would be acceptable as a candidate,as would an atheist or Buddhist or whatever,as long as it was not the goal to implement private beliefs into public policy ?

Yeah, but try to get an Atheist elected as a Republican. It's something that might not happen in this century.

321 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:56:19pm

re: #309 EmmmieG

There is also a strong belief in following grammatical norms, such as ending your sentence with a period and beginning it with a capital letter.

Heh. Did you look at the posts from 2001?

322 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:57:13pm

So lets consider a metaphysical question for the fun of it.

Can God create something that is old?

323 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:57:39pm

re: #309 EmmmieG

There is also a strong belief in following grammatical norms, such as ending your sentence with a period and beginning it with a capital letter.


grammer cop!

324 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:57:57pm

re: #291 Charles

Yeah that is a cool site.

325 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:58:01pm

re: #280 taxfreekiller

Fact:

The U.S.A. is built; it is up and running.... it needs no more building...
as of now, it needs a paint job, a new floor, a new roof, an up to date wiring system , new plumbing, and faith in itself as the prime contractor.

The United States of America is one of - if not the - longest reining governments in the world. Those who claim it to be a "young" nation are incorrect.

326 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:58:02pm

re: #308 BBev

I have been reading you long enough to know quit a bit about you but you have a good night and keep down dinging anyone that has faith.


I have faith. I am sure you have faith. My faith is just that, my faith. As is Sharm's faith.

what does this have to do with anti-science wackos pushing their dangerous agenda on the schools?

327 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:58:35pm

re: #91 n in wi

Is Sarah Palin a Creationist for sure?
The stuff I've found looks like she more or less punted on the issue.
I'm asking because I don't know and would like to be more informed.

Based on what I've read, she has not said either way. She did, during her campaign for governor, speak out for teaching both, in a "debate is good" kind of way. However, she has not supported teaching ID in schools since that time. I think her statement was pure, unadulterated politics, and her actual stand is pure pragmatism.

Of course, the whole "debate is good" argument is uninformed - silly at best. Science is not a debating society, where you give your opinion. It's a theoretical framework that is defined through scientific observations (stole the definition from Pamela Gay). You can discuss these observations and theorize, of course. But ID does none of that - they came up with the theory they wanted, and if any experimentation or observation has been done by ID, I missed it.

328 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:58:38pm

re: #301 taxfreekiller

Regarding your reply to tfk on Mexico, your last word was , "though",
please complete your sentence.....and we will continue.

tfk, it does not appear that he will answer, so I will answer for him. Here goes:

compared to Texas, it is a wonderland of education and enlightenment though...my brain is not a wonderland of education and enlightenment.

See, that was easy.

329 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:58:54pm

re: #304 HoosierHoops

Is that what you call it? Look Jesus..When you get more downdings than actual posts..there is an issue..
Creative solutions? Give me a break....
/ Here is your real chance to trash talk somebody...Bring your A game pal.


one day, future archaeologists will dig this website up and look through all the comments and realize how progressive and innovative my ideas were for this time in history. I will be considered the Socrates of the blogosphere.

330 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:59:12pm

re: #322 Syrah

So lets consider a metaphysical question for the fun of it.

Can God create something that is old?


like good aged cheese and whisky ?

331 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:59:13pm

re: #310 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think I'll listen to the person who's been here less time, and yet has contributed a whole lot more.


though I agree with sharmuta in this instance, number of posts means dick...

332 CynicalConservative  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:59:46pm

re: #326 Shug

I have faith. I am sure you have faith. My faith is just that, my faith. As is Sharm's faith.

Very well said. No matter where you fall on the spectrum, faith is a PERSONAL thing.

333 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:59:47pm
334 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:59:48pm

This is not about faith, but about power.
Vandalizing school science standards will diminish the power of the nation in the long run, and give small temporary power to short-sighted men who are leading their followers to a bad end.

335 Empire1  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:16pm

re: #291 Charles

"Becoming Human" is a great site - it's still there.

Thanks for posting those links - it's good to remind people that I didn't suddenly become "obsessed" with this topic.

You aren't obsessed, but I'm glad you're interested in the subject, because I am, too. And I very much enjoy seeing my fellow lizards' comments -- I learn something every time you have one of these threads.

336 Sunlight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:18pm

re: #266 Charles

Sarah Palin is definitely a creationist, by the way. There's no doubt about it from her statements. I defended her during the campaign on the grounds that she never tried to promote it as Governor, and seemed clear that it was a private belief, not a government matter.

I actually don't care if someone is a creationist. Creationism doesn't urge people to kill the nonbeliever. I do, however, appreciate these notices on school board actions so we can face them down. And I think the pressure makes it clear that we have a large responsibility to teach our children what we think is right regarding this stuff and not leave them to pick up whatever from the society. I'm way more worried about things like replacement theology, supremacy theories, end times theories, things that could result in broken family ties or even harm to groups of people.

337 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:22pm

re: #310 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think I'll listen to the person who's been here less time, and yet has contributed a whole lot more.

Your judging someone intelligence by how many posts they have in here? Nice try, but your way outta line.

Ive seen Idiots in here with 13,000+ posts.

338 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:27pm

re: #309 EmmmieG

There is also a strong belief in following grammatical norms, such as ending your sentence with a period and beginning it with a capital letter.

In particular, I am fond of punctuation.

339 gmsc  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:27pm

re: #322 Syrah

So lets consider a metaphysical question for the fun of it.

Can God create something that is old?

Nah, fun would be more along the lines of, "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself couldn't eat it?"
;)

340 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:37pm

re: #326 Shug

what does this have to do with anti-science wackos pushing their dangerous agenda on the schools?

I'm too staunch in my support of science and the Constitution on a blog that's pissing off the creationists. My reward is snide, threatening comments.

341 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:00:41pm

re: #294 BBev

It used to be more rough and tumble which has a certain appeal. But LGF is much more rational these days. There are a lot of blogs on the internet filled with vicious fights and salty language. There aren't many smart blogs.

342 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:01:23pm

re: #321 wrenchwench

Heh. Did you look at the posts from 2001?

heh! I wrote that way all through high school and college and then when I became a musician. I knew capitalization rules, it wasn't out of ignorance - it was some kind of vague artistic thing. e.e. cummings and all that. One day I suddenly realized it was stupid and stopped doing it.

343 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:01:44pm

re: #329 SpaceJesus

one day, future archaeologists will dig this website up and look through all the comments and realize how progressive and innovative my ideas were for this time in history. I will be considered the Socrates Pee Wee Herman of the blogosphere.

Huh-Ha!

344 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:01:51pm

re: #331 joecitizen

though I agree with sharmuta in this instance, number of posts means dick...

It means they actively participate, and that for me means a lot.

345 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:01:59pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

yes, i have taught them many different creation stories. some traditional, some fantastic, and they sit through watching all sorts of science shows (including the universe, the complete cosmos, in short the whole discovery channel/ national geographic family of physics ans space shows) . the most important thing i teach them is to to think about these stories for themselves, and to ask themselves which of these make sense, and why. that's why i don't care if they are exposed to creationism in school is because i know i have done my job in teaching them to think for themselves, to ask questions when things don't make sense. that's the job of the parents. to teach the kids to think for themselves. if you have done your job as a parent in that area then nothing they can teach in school should hold any alarm for you.

346 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:02:29pm

re: #329 SpaceJesus

You taking humility lessons from Obama?

347 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:02:58pm

re: #342 Charles

Thank goodness.

348 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:02pm

Charles, perhaps it's time for you to post your statement ( for the 1000th time ) about belief in God having nothing to do with belief in evolution, and vice versa

people still don't get it


but will they ever get it?

349 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:05pm

re: #339 gmsc

Nah, fun would be more along the lines of, "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself couldn't eat it?"
;)

An infinitely expanding loop.

A GE or HG Microwave oven?

350 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:05pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

It used to be more rough and tumble which has a certain appeal. But LGF is much more rational these days. There are a lot of blogs on the internet filled with vicious fights and salty language. There aren't many smart blogs.

That is so true, I learn more here then I do just about any other place on the net.

351 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:15pm

re: #329 SpaceJesus

one day, future archaeologists will dig this website up and look through all the comments and realize how progressive and innovative my ideas were for this time in history. I will be considered the Socrates of the blogosphere.

Way to maintain your humility.

352 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:18pm

re: #252 BBev

I try really hard to stay out of this - may my Honco buds forgive me if tonight is the night I forget how I was raised.

This isn't a Christian nation. It IS a Judeo-Christian nation. Don't ever mistake that to mean we have a national religion of any sort. Judeo-Christian means our country is founded on an emphasis of laws that protect freedom and liberty, a belief in judging, and a belief that people are special - granted unalienable rights, rights given to us by G-d (liberty, freedom), and that we have a calling to spread this freedom to others. This is a quick, reader's digest version, but it's important to understand the pretext of what this means to avoid any thought process that includes impressing one set of religious tenants over another through our government.

353 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:51pm

re: #259 Kosh's Shadow

Excellent post. I hope some people who think they believe in ID but really believe in TE will realize the difference.

That's exactly why I posted it, Kosh, and why I will continue to post similar arguments -- because I'm quite aware that ID proponents do their best to obscure the difference, in order to get TE folks on the bandwagon.

354 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:03:52pm

re: #329 SpaceJesus

one day, future archaeologists will dig this website up and look through all the comments and realize how progressive and innovative my ideas were for this time in history. I will be considered the Socrates of the blogosphere.

Hubris-R-U.

355 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:04:00pm

re: #333 taxfreekiller

Obama has no core and he is elected, at least Sarah Palin has a core.

Obama just by the empty space in his soul leaves room for great evil to come into that empty space,,,the huge unguided ego is also a danger, empty souls are always filled with something, too often it is great evil.

I think that is the attraction to Global Warming for some.

356 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:04:11pm

oh no, how dare I type messages in a non-academic way on the internet

357 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:04:34pm

re: #282 SpaceJesus

You're a pussy heysus. Grow some balls.

358 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:04:46pm

The summer before last I took my family to South Padre Island for a week's vacation. My wife insisted that we take the opportunity to visit Mexico. Her plan was to park the van in Brownsville and walk across the mighty Rio Grande and visit the markets in Matamoros. I did not try to dissuade her even though I knew what to expect.

It was a hot, muggy day. The mighty Rio Grande is little more than a drainage ditch at that point and as we marched toward the market district the smell became overpowering. I said: "You can all now say you've been to Mexico. I propose we go back to Brownsville and go to the zoo." My proposal was carried unanimously.

359 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:05:16pm

re: #333 taxfreekiller

Obama has no core and he is elected, at least Sarah Palin has a core.

Obama just by the empty space in his soul leaves room for great evil to come into that empty space,,,the huge unguided ego is also a danger, empty souls are always filled with something, too often it is great evil.

Amen.

360 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:05:28pm

re: #230 Guanxi88

"We" hides not collective. "We" simply referes to a plurality of persons; it does not suggest that that the author is sitting as Locutus for the Borg, here. (It's a reference to a TV series from some years ago.)

No, "dirt-bag," "moron," "huckster," - those are ad hominen

Spew is a verb, and tripe is a delicacy to some deranged folk.

The terms are also used in invective, with "spew" carrying the meaning of "periodically ejecting masses of unpleasant, unwanted lies, evasions, and jack-assery", and "tripe" meaning, in this case, "bilge, codswaddle, palpable nonsense."

As a literalist, I understand your difficulties with higher linguistic functions such as these, and will work to accommodate you if possible.

Bravo...you said it much better than I.

361 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:05:35pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

It used to be more rough and tumble which has a certain appeal. But LGF is much more rational these days. There are a lot of blogs on the internet filled with vicious fights and salty language. There aren't many smart blogs.

you used to actually get pissed off...what gives?...you have not told anyone to fuck off in a very long time...indeed times change...a kinder gentler Killgore....

362 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:05:37pm

re: #314 gmsc

yeah, well, I've been known to partake in creative spelling on occasion!

363 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:05:50pm

re: #320 Thanos

Yeah, but try to get an Atheist elected as a Republican. It's something that might not happen in this century.

That's a valid point. People tend to want their representatives to reflect their values which probably explains why we have so many self serving corrupt bastards in DC. ;)

364 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:06:01pm

re: #342 Charles

heh! I wrote that way all through high school and college and then when I became a musician. I knew capitalization rules, it wasn't out of ignorance - it was some kind of vague artistic thing. e.e. cummings and all that. One day I suddenly realized it was stupid and stopped doing it.

When I taught high school English, I let the students make mistakes if they wanted to, as long as they footnoted each mistake to let me know they knew the rule but were breaking it on purpose. Oddly enough, no one ever felt strongly enough to actually do this, but I figured English class is about learning the rules - not forcing them down everyone's throat.

365 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:06:33pm

re: #345 mockery jones

yes, i have taught them many different creation stories. some traditional, some fantastic, and they sit through watching all sorts of science shows (including the universe, the complete cosmos, in short the whole discovery channel/ national geographic family of physics ans space shows) . the most important thing i teach them is to to think about these stories for themselves, and to ask themselves which of these make sense, and why. that's why i don't care if they are exposed to creationism in school is because i know i have done my job in teaching them to think for themselves, to ask questions when things don't make sense. that's the job of the parents. to teach the kids to think for themselves. if you have done your job as a parent in that area then nothing they can teach in school should hold any alarm for you.

Why would I, as a parent, send my child to school for 7 hours a day to have her time wasted by junk teaching?

I don't want the teacher teaching vague concepts of math and "leaving it up to her" to decide which ones she might need when she grows up and which ones she won't need.

I don't want a teacher exposing my child to junk reading material and the classics, and leaving it up to her to decide which one is worth pursuing and reflecting on, and which one isn't. I know exactly which ones my kid would choose, and that's whatever is easiest right now.

And I certainly don't want the teacher exposing my child to somebody else's faith beliefs in science class, when I can perfectly well send my child to classes about our own religion, taught by people who have studied it in depth and can answer whatever questions she has.

366 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:07:00pm

re: #342 Charles

heh! I wrote that way all through high school and college and then when I became a musician. I knew capitalization rules, it wasn't out of ignorance - it was some kind of vague artistic thing. e.e. cummings and all that. One day I suddenly realized it was stupid and stopped doing it.

Then came your awkward "rEVERSE cAPITALIZATION" phase (reminiscent of Picasso's Blue period)./

367 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:07:17pm

re: #358 USBeast

I've been to Tijuana on several occasions. It will be a long time before I go back. The drug cartels have taken over.

368 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:07:26pm

re: #337 Maximu§

Your judging someone intelligence by how many posts they have in here? Nice try, but your way outta line.

Ive seen Idiots in here with 13,000+ posts.

Gee, expressing one's opinion is out of line for you. My, how very PROGRESSIVE of you. You've shown you can be an idiot in far less posts. Good job!

I look at the quantity AND quality of participation, but if that hurts your feelings tough noogies.

369 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:08:49pm

re: #342 Charles

heh! I wrote that way all through high school and college and then when I became a musician. I knew capitalization rules, it wasn't out of ignorance - it was some kind of vague artistic thing. e.e. cummings and all that. One day I suddenly realized it was stupid and stopped doing it.

I have known a few very smart people with very casual writing styles. I knew it was not out of ignorance. I do admire the way you made the change when your blog was becoming important. You write much better than some of your "peers" who have published books.

370 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:09:04pm

re: #342 Charles

heh! I wrote that way all through high school and college and then when I became a musician. I knew capitalization rules, it wasn't out of ignorance - it was some kind of vague artistic thing. e.e. cummings and all that. One day I suddenly realized it was stupid and stopped doing it.

* * *
Dear Charles,

Thank you for changing--evolving--to care about punctuation, FONTS & things symbolic, so you were expert when leftists tried to make fake (but accurate!) recreations of President Bush's 1960s TANG memos using Microsoft Word.

You're the Gutenberg of the Internet.

371 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:09:10pm

re: #252 BBev

I agree with you soooooooo much on that one, It will be a sad day when America is no longer a Christian nation.

You must have missed the memo:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
372 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:09:47pm

re: #361 albusteve

I haven't really evolved, I'm just adapting to the blog. I use all kinds of word in the meat world but I don't post them on LGF. I still get pissed sometimes but I've learned from watching others that internet bravado is just plain silly. I still retain my bad temper and moodiness in real life tough. I'm not really Killgore, he's just a character I play on the interweb.

373 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:09:50pm

re: #363 Wendya

I am making a joke, but it's also somewhat serious. I've been a Republican all my life (except a short stint where I campaigned for Don Young in AK, the affair with the libertarians was short lived,) which includes donations, voting, campaigning etc. etc. but I really have no voice in the party, atheists are an ill-served portion of the Republican base.

374 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:10:04pm

Heaven & Hell

375 callahan23  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:10:11pm

re: #333 taxfreekiller

Obama has no core and he is elected, at least Sarah Palin has a core.

Obama just by the empty space in his soul leaves room for great evil to come into that empty space,,,the huge unguided ego is also a danger, empty souls are always filled with something, too often it is great evil.

So very true!

376 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:10:23pm

re: #123 Maximu§

Its too bad there can't be some kind of middle-ground that we can all agree to. Christianity is being attacked from all sides and now we're seeing Christians push back...I may not totally agree with the Texas State Board of Education's agenda, but its nice to see Christian's standing their ground and drawing a line in the sand.

They're not merely drawing a line in the sand; they are endeavoring to raze the scientific edifice to the ground and erect a dogmatic temple on the site.

377 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:11:19pm

re: #297 Kosh's Shadow

BTW, I do believe G-d takes an active interest and control of events, but that He does it by affecting the "random" quantum-mechanical events, not by the equivalent of waving a magic wand and going outside His physical laws.

Or to put it another way, G-d intervenes by tickling a butterfly that otherwise wouldn't have flapped its wings.

378 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:11:56pm

re: #329 SpaceJesus

one day, future archaeologists will dig this website up and look through all the comments and realize how progressive and innovative my ideas were for this time in history. I will be considered the Socrates of the blogosphere.

You forgot the
/
I'll loan you one of mine.

379 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:12:21pm

re: #377 Throbert McGee

He made you post that.

380 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:12:22pm

re: #366 Bloodnok

or the random caps ThAt lOoK LikE ThIs. Ay Yi yI!

(ps - Bev - not that I am trolling for down dings, but you may have misread my post - I am, for the most part, in strong support of Sharmuta. Unless my wit and charm has worked it's magic on you and you've seen the error of your ways? That is my sincere hope)

381 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:12:27pm

re: #367 Racer X

I've been to Tijuana on several occasions. It will be a long time before I go back. The drug cartels have taken over.

Mexico is deteriorating at an alarming rate. Twenty years ago Matamoros wasn't that bad. It's disgusting how much damage a corrupt government can do. Mexico has a lot going for it if it could just change the culture. I have very little hope for such a change.

382 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:12:30pm

re: #377 Throbert McGee

Or to put it another way, G-d intervenes by tickling a butterfly that otherwise wouldn't have flapped its wings.

And that *blankety-blanking* Beijing butterfly is making it possibly snow here in the Seattle area tonight. I am not happy.

383 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:12:44pm

O.T. maybe
Barrack Hussein Obama approval rating is on 68% ?
I was expecting it to be way over 100%
Being the messiah and all 68% is a slap in the face Haha

384 Maximu§  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:12:58pm

re: #368 FurryOldGuyJeans

Gee, expressing one's opinion is out of line for you. My, how very PROGRESSIVE of you. You've shown you can be an idiot in far less posts. Good job!

I look at the quantity AND quality of participation, but if that hurts your feelings tough noogies.

I have a life, I run a small company, am raising a family and talking care of my house. I don't have 8 hours a day to sit here and post on LGF, but if you think that makes a person smarter, than your totally screwed up.

In that light, thats why I don't bag on NooB's, cause that person with 9 posts may have served 22 years in the USMC and have a college degree.

385 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:25pm

re: #342 Charles

heh! I wrote that way all through high school and college and then when I became a musician. I knew capitalization rules, it wasn't out of ignorance - it was some kind of vague artistic thing. e.e. cummings and all that. One day I suddenly realized it was stupid and stopped doing it.

Hey Charles..quick question.. who is your Favorite guitarist? you do you listen too that just blows your mind? I know we don't listen to the same music.. But Delbert McClinton just blows my mind..the way he writes his music..the emotion he brings to a song..his vocals...

386 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:28pm

re: #372 Killgore Trout

I haven't really evolved, I'm just adapting to the blog. I use all kinds of word in the meat world but I don't post them on LGF. I still get pissed sometimes but I've learned from watching others that internet bravado is just plain silly. I still retain my bad temper and moodiness in real life tough. I'm not really Killgore, he's just a character I play on the interweb.

kudos...I display temperance and patience if I can...I try to be cyber prudent...hahaha....see you on the streets bro...

387 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:30pm

re: #296 jcm

In your original link any discussion of forcing factors leaving out solar factors is disingenuous.

If you are interested in reading more about the inclusion of the sun's activity in climate modeling, Spencer Weart writes a bit about it in his history of the science of climate change.

388 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:37pm

re: #381 USBeast

Mexico is deteriorating at an alarming rate. Twenty years ago Matamoros wasn't that bad. It's disgusting how much damage a corrupt government can do. Mexico has a lot going for it if it could just change the culture. I have very little hope for such a change.

The Mexican culture is fine, it's those running the country that are the problem.

389 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:39pm

re: #380 ArmyWife

or the random caps ThAt lOoK LikE ThIs. Ay Yi yI!

(ps - Bev - not that I am trolling for down dings, but you may have misread my post - I am, for the most part, in strong support of Sharmuta. Unless my wit and charm has worked it's magic on you and you've seen the error of your ways? That is my sincere hope)

(That's often Ploomie with the raNdoM cAps)

390 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:51pm

re: #383 ThinkRight

O.T. maybe
Barrack Hussein Obama approval rating is on 68% ?
I was expecting it to be way over 100%
Being the messiah and all 68% is a slap in the face Haha

Only one way to go from here.

391 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:13:58pm

re: #383 ThinkRight

Not all of us have gotten our unicorn, and thus far, I've still been required to pay my mortgage.

392 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:14:47pm

re: #366 Bloodnok

Then came your awkward "rEVERSE cAPITALIZATION" phase (reminiscent of Picasso's Blue period)./

Then there is the neologistic internet slang period. I sometimes forget that people at work (we have IM) don't know what tyvm or np mean.

393 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:15:04pm

re: #389 reine.de.tout

But I love Ploomie's spit fire attitude. She makes me laugh. Except she wouldn't sell me her bowflex for $5, that stunk. We all have our off days, though, don't we?

394 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:15:41pm

re: #373 Thanos

I've been a Republican all my life (except a short stint where I campaigned for Don Young in AK, the affair with the libertarians was short lived.

Where are you now? So Don Young was a libertarian at one point?

395 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:15:50pm

re: #389 reine.de.tout

(That's often Ploomie with the raNdoM cAps)

that;s right (/// ;P)

396 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:15:59pm

re: #48 ihatepantz

I wonder what Stephen Hawking has to say about all this...

The Big Bizang

Youtube Video
397 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:16:12pm

re: #384 Maximu§

I have a life, I run a small company, am raising a family and talking care of my house. I don't have 8 hours a day to sit here and post on LGF, but if you think that makes a person smarter, than your totally screwed up.

In that light, thats why I don't bag on NooB's, cause that person with 9 posts may have served 22 years in the USMC and have a college degree.

You sure like to tell me what I think and know, but you are SOOOOO wrong on both counts.

398 Totally Berserk  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:16:15pm

But did they have a Plan 9?

399 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:16:30pm

re: #393 ArmyWife

But I love Ploomie's spit fire attitude. She makes me laugh. Except she wouldn't sell me her bowflex for $5, that stunk. We all have our off days, though, don't we?

I love her attitude, too!
Makes me laugh over and over.
I don't think she knows how funny she is sometimes.

You need to work on her about that bow-flex, though.

400 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:16:57pm

re: #391 ArmyWife

Not all of us have gotten our unicorn, and thus far, I've still been required to pay my mortgage.


He did say we are going to have to be patient
Have you completed your 400 hours of community service yet?
You will feel better then
/

401 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:17:09pm

re: #394 Haverwilde

Where are you now? So Don Young was a libertarian at one point?

Yes, Don was a Libertarian in his first election. I'm still Republican, though many would call me a Rino because I disagree with them on some social issues.

402 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:17:12pm

Guinness "Evolution"

LOL!

403 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:17:28pm

My Siamese cat was somewhat disappointed that we did not have pate and brie for dinner again. He doesn't like stuffed peppers.

404 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:17:29pm
405 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:17:43pm

re: #373 Thanos

I am making a joke, but it's also somewhat serious. I've been a Republican all my life (except a short stint where I campaigned for Don Young in AK, the affair with the libertarians was short lived,) which includes donations, voting, campaigning etc. etc. but I really have no voice in the party, atheists are an ill-served portion of the Republican base.

Conservatives are equally ill-served.

406 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:17:49pm

re: #392 Catttt

Then there is the neologistic internet slang period. I sometimes forget that people at work (we have IM) don't know what tyvm or np mean.

I am not kidding when I say I used a sarc tag on an e-mail to my staff (and yes, my jokes are as bad there as they are here).

407 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:18:00pm

re: #403 Catttt

My Siamese cat was somewhat disappointed that we did not have pate and brie for dinner again. He doesn't like stuffed peppers.

Try tuna.
Cocaine for cats.

408 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:18:21pm

re: #322 Syrah

So lets consider a metaphysical question for the fun of it.

Can God create something that is old?

Can He create a burrito so big that even He can't eat it?

/I believe that comes from the great philosopher Homer (Simpson)

409 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:18:25pm

re: #140 mockery jones

re: #93 Basho

i don't see why it couldn't be used in a science classroom. have you ever seen the episode of the discovery channel's the universe "beyond the big bang", it showed how our understanding evolved from the creation stories to the theories of the modern sciences. there is no reason a science class could not be conducted in the same manner; showing creationist ideas as part of the evolution of ideas that have lead to the modern understanding of life the universe and everything.....

whether the creationists like that place in the curriculum or not is immaterial. It satisfies the demand for the ideas to be taught without sacrificing the post enlightenment discoveries of the modern sciences. Leaving the creation stories out of the education system is not an acceptable solution. They underpin so much of our cultural identity that not teaching them is just short changing kids.

Ancient history is another subject (and there are ancient histories for every geographical area, and their religions rarely agree). Theology (and there are as many theologies as there are religions) is another subject. Neither of them is empirical science, which concerns itself with what the empirical evidence has been found to show.

They can teach their cherished religious dogmas at home or in church or in a private sectarian school. They cannot constitutionally foist them as fact upon other peoples' children in public high school science class. And that's a GOOD thing - for the children, and for our country.

410 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:18:47pm

re: #402 Racer X

Cheers!

411 Lynn B.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:18:53pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
The flowers appear on the earth;
the time of the singing of birds is come,
and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land.

–The Holy Bible, Isaiah (~Song of Solomon~ 2:10-12)

Closer.

/nit picked

412 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:19:30pm

re: #400 ThinkRight

He did say we are going to have to be patient
Have you completed your 400 hours of community service yet?
You will feel better then
/

His motto is now,
Yes we can,just not right now.

413 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:19:35pm

re: #401 Thanos

Yes, Don was a Libertarian in his first election. I'm still Republican, though many would call me a Rino because I disagree with them on some social issues.

I'll be darned. I will be talking with him in a couple of weeks. He is a character. He must have 100 trophies on his wall in D.C. It must drive PETA wild. Are you in Alaska now? What social issues?

414 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:20:00pm

re: #374 Racer X
Heaven and Hell (Who-style)

415 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:20:08pm

re: #408 Slumbering Behemoth

Can He create a burrito so big that even He can't eat it?

/I believe that comes from the great philosopher Homer (Simpson)

Another infinity expanding loop reply.

Canre Asada or Al Pastor?

416 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:20:17pm

re: #308 BBev

I have been reading you long enough to know quit a bit about you but you have a good night and keep down dinging anyone that has faith.

I still want to know what you meant. Are you threatening me?

417 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:20:27pm

How Evolution Is Scientific Part 1: Observational Data

418 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:20:41pm

re: #400 ThinkRight

I bought a non-fat latte at starbucks tonight. Does that count?

419 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:20:49pm

re: #363 Wendya

That's a valid point. People tend to want their representatives to reflect their values which probably explains why we have so many self serving corrupt bastards in DC. ;)

* **
Agreed! Pander Bears get elected, as decent dearly departed democrat Paul Tsongas of Taxachusetts used to say--why did the rare straight-talking, no Clinton-B.S. taking democrat have to die young?

420 Dave the.....  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:21:18pm

#407 Reine

Try tuna.
Cocaine for cats.

Yeah, I made the mistake of giving that to my cat. Now, whenever he stands by his bowl and meows, I go get some of the dry food (and it's not cheap stuff either). I put it in the bowl. He looks down at it, then looks up at me with this look on this face that says:

"What the f*ck is this? This dry crap is not what I ordered. Now be a good owner and run a like a little rabbit to whereever it is you keep the tuna"

421 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:21:26pm

re: #404 taxfreekiller

It is unfortunate that "Space Jesus" went to "Space" and neglected to finish his thought. Perhaps, a reflection on his words might propel him back into our "space. We will await his re-entry with much trepidation...

Sincerely,
Mrs. TFK...the tempoary replacement for Mr. TFK...am I humble or not?

maybe...but can you dance? :)
always welcome

422 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:21:35pm

re: #416 Sharmuta

I still want to know what you meant. Are you threatening me?

Are you high. Where did you get that from?

423 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:21:55pm

re: #407 reine.de.tout

Try tuna.
Cocaine for cats.

Oh, yes, the occasional tuna is offered, though he prefers broiled flounder. His favorite is pate, and his other favorite is chicken - he should be a farm cat, where he could keep the chicken population low. :D

My domestic shorthair eschews most human food, but she does like tuna. A lot.

424 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:22:31pm

re: #422 BBev

That doesn't answer either of my questions.

425 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:23:12pm

re: #388 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Mexican culture is fine, it's those running the country that are the problem.

What?...as in WHAT!? "Mexican culture is fine" how? Culture is more than cuisine and customs. It is also how people feel about how they should be represented and governed. Mexico has a long history of the people being bullied and bullshitted. Their revolutions have only resulted in changing bullies and bullshitters. This is the accepted norm for the majority and the few dissenters are either exiled, deceased or soon to be one of the above.

426 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #413 Haverwilde

I'll be darned. I will be talking with him in a couple of weeks. He is a character. He must have 100 trophies on his wall in D.C. It must drive PETA wild. Are you in Alaska now? What social issues?

No, I migrated about 18 years ago - when I was a young man crawling under a car to unfreeze the shift linkage at -40 was not a big deal, but once you hit thirty five it starts getting harder to do.

The social issues would be what shouldn't be taught in science class, issues of rights and freedoms, things like gay marriage, etc.

427 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:23:47pm

re: #418 ArmyWife

I bought a non-fat latte at starbucks tonight. Does that count?


Only if you tipped 50%
/
More layoffs expected at Starbucks

Another big round of layoffs is expected at Starbucks, possibly 1,000 people — a third of its headquarters employees — and some district managers and field employees, according to an e-mail sent to a stock brokerage's customers Friday.


Starbucks

428 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:24:21pm

re: #423 Catttt

My mutt cat eats popcorn. She is what those of us in polite company call "special".

429 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:24:39pm
430 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:24:50pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

That doesn't answer either of my questions.

You ask if I am threatening you from a comment about faith. Lady I don't think I will be posting to you again you nuts.

431 Dave the.....  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:10pm

416 Alegrias

Agreed! Pander Bears get elected, as decent dearly departed democrat Paul Tsongas of Taxachusetts used to say--why did the rare straight-talking, no Clinton-B.S. taking democrat have to die young?

Back in the 90s, Tsongas came to Wisconsin to campaign for Republican congresman Steve Gunderson. The chairman of a county party said, when introducing Tsongas, something (jokingly) like "If you had worked harder in 1992, we won't be dealing with Clinton today".

432 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:20pm

re: #416 Sharmuta

I still want to know what you meant. Are you threatening me?

lighten up, frances...

433 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:25pm

re: #427 ThinkRight

They have presidential quotes on their wrappers that protect your fingers from burning off. As proof that there is a G-d, mine was a Reagan quote. NO LIE.

434 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:45pm

re: #382 FurryOldGuyJeans

They are saying just a few flurries....

435 NptPrchr  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:52pm

There are already a lot of comments on this thread and it looks like many, if not most, of them actually address the issue and the story. At the risk of wasting my time, let me just say this:

I'm a preacher at a theologically conservative church which is largely made up of people who are culturally tolerant but personally conservative. I lean toward a libertarian view on issues such as drug legalization, etc., and I also seriously doubt that Darwinism/evolution explain life on this planet.

That being said, however, I also believe that Creationism, as a belief/doctrine, is a matter of faith and should therefore not be taught in public schools. I have no problem with science classes teaching evolution as the current/best scientific understanding of life in its varied forms on this planet.

Here's my question for Charles and the Lizardoids who are terribly exercised about this whole matter: Is the tent big enough for libertarian-leaning conservatives such as myself? Or, must I be purged from the Right side of the political spectrum?

436 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:55pm

re: #429 Iron Fist

and farting cows.

437 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:25:57pm

re: #433 ArmyWife

They have presidential quotes on their wrappers that protect your fingers from burning off. As proof that there is a G-d, mine was a Reagan quote. NO LIE.


Karma

438 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:04pm

Gotta go...I just realized I have some, uh, urgent business at the library.

/See you all later.

439 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:07pm

re: #367 Racer X

I've been to Tijuana on several occasions. It will be a long time before I go back. The drug cartels have taken over.

* * *
Narco terrorists are so bold around the world, they recently walked into a Madrid Spain hospital and shot another South American narco trafficker.

Narcoterrorists, they're not just in the 3rd world anymore.

Wall Street Journal recently reported Mexico could collapse & fall to their narcoterrorists who are more powerful than the Mexican government. Imagine the US having a 100% narcoterrorist-run country on our southern flank. A semiporous drug-exchanging membrane for a border on the greatest nation on Earth.

Liberals can dig it.

440 callahan23  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:20pm

re: #407 reine.de.tout

Try tuna.
Cocaine for cats.

Not for mine. She dislikes anything with fish, regardless of species.

441 nyc redneck  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:28pm

wow, they are so persistent. like a low grade infection.
just won't quit.
and how clever to insist on coming in w/ offering explanations for gaps in the fossil record. like creationists have answers like that.
how abt. we let science work in that direction based on actual scientific findings.
sometimes no science is science. never is it creationism.

442 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:52pm

re: #430 BBev

You said:

I have been reading you long enough to know quit a bit about you

You tell me how I should interpret that.

443 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:53pm

re: #371 Slumbering Behemoth

Could that Treaty be an example of political expediency rather than a domestic declaration of principals? After all, after our declaration of independence, we were no longer protected by the British payment of tribute to the Barbary pirates and we (The US Govt.) did not have the wherewithal to pay the tribute. Thomas Jefferson did send Marines to Tripoli in an attempt to stop the piracy.

444 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:55pm

re: #420 Dave the.....

#407 Reine

Yeah, I made the mistake of giving that to my cat. Now, whenever he stands by his bowl and meows, I go get some of the dry food (and it's not cheap stuff either). I put it in the bowl. He looks down at it, then looks up at me with this look on this face that says:

"What the f*ck is this? This dry crap is not what I ordered. Now be a good owner and run a like a little rabbit to whereever it is you keep the tuna"

My cats get to split a can of tuna every day.

Every day at 3 p.m., they are on the porch, all 4 of 'em, sitting facing the door, just waiting for me to come out and dispense the tuna.

445 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:57pm

re: #365 reine.de.tout

wow. could you have set me up better?

however. in deference to the board, and because i really don't want to give anyone a coronary tonight . i will simply concede the point. Creationism has no place among the schools of all but the most inbred.

you are welcome.

446 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:26:59pm

re: #407 reine.de.tout

Try tuna.
Cocaine for cats.

Hi Reine! I'm out by 9pm with Mama ..I hope today finds you well..
This has been a great thread...I PIMF'd Charles on who his favorite guitarist is in the whole wide world..I'll check out his answer in the morning..
I love ID thread because it forces everyone to talk science and show the links..
otherwise..Space jesus..shut the fuck heck up pal...It's all about science not myths.If you don't believe me call me on a cell phone jesus...It's all about science..

447 jwb7605  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:27:13pm

re: #423 Catttt

Oh, yes, the occasional tuna is offered, though he prefers broiled flounder. His favorite is pate, and his other favorite is chicken - he should be a farm cat, where he could keep the chicken population low. :D

My domestic shorthair eschews most human food, but she does like tuna. A lot.

I was going to post OT, but I see that's not necessary.
If anybody cringes at a meatless dinner, this is the cure:
http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Ratatouille/Detail.aspx

Wife made all 4 servings. The two of us ate it all.
Nothing left, except a few spoonfuls which the SheepDog went ape over.
It's the first dish I've ever liked with eggplant.

Over and out.

448 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:28:21pm

The creationists need to address science, not education. If they have a valid claim, they can get the recognition through science. Wanting to promote a theological theory in the classroom without having any academic foundation is like trying to draw a paycheck without any work. Earn your way. Then get the payola. Having a voice in the classroom without any validation is academic welfare....And this from a guy who is rooting for your team. But you want the result without paying the dues.
No dessert until you finish your plate.

Don't tell me you can't; Physics is rife with this stuff. Results that only vary when observed. Schrodinger's cat. you aren't trying because you don't actually believe. If you believed you would be getting grants. I bet Oral Roberts University would have a truck full of cash do a wheelie on its way to anyone who even propose a investigation into a competitive theory, or addendum to the current train of thought. These (not all) creationists are being dishonest and/or lazy.

449 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:28:22pm

Cat thread! Woot!

450 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:28:41pm

re: #435 NptPrchr


Here's my question for Charles and the Lizardoids who are terribly exercised about this whole matter: Is the tent big enough for libertarian-leaning conservatives such as myself? Or, must I be purged from the Right side of the political spectrum?

Perhaps you should ask the Texas BOE, or perhaps the Oklahoma GOP platform writers?

451 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:28:52pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

I will speak only for myself. I have room for you in my view of what it means to be a conservative (Republican, though). All I ask is that you don't force me to teach any alternatives in science class, because creationism isn't a viable one.

We may need to rumble a bit about that drug thing - but we can do so later.

452 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:28:54pm
453 LGoPs  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:28:55pm

re: #427 ThinkRight

Starbucks

I never understood the appeal of Fourbucks.....although my hats off to the guys that figured a way to convince people to pay a small fortune for hot flavored water.
I've never been a conoyser of coffee although I can't face life without it in the morning. Just give me a cup of hot Joe....canteen cup's fine....with grass and twigs in it for extra fiber............
:)

454 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:29:08pm

re: #449 Catttt

Cat thread! Woot!

Where's my Claritin?

455 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:29:10pm

re: #446 HoosierHoops

Hi Reine! I'm out by 9pm with Mama ..I hope today finds you well..
This has been a great thread...I PIMF'd Charles on who his favorite guitarist is in the whole wide world..I'll check out his answer in the morning..
I love ID thread because it forces everyone to talk science and show the links..
otherwise..Space jesus..shut the fuck heck up pal...It's all about science not myths.If you don't believe me call me on a cell phone jesus...It's all about science..

Ya'll have a great time!

456 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:29:23pm

re: #449 Catttt

Cat thread! Woot!


Damn cats
Obama is a cat person I bet
/

457 outsidephilly  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:29:23pm

re: #446 HoosierHoops

Hi Reine! I'm out by 9pm with Mama ..I hope today finds you well..
This has been a great thread...I PIMF'd Charles on who his favorite guitarist is in the whole wide world..I'll check out his answer in the morning..
I love ID thread because it forces everyone to talk science and show the links..
otherwise..Space jesus..shut the fuck heck up pal...It's all about science not myths.If you don't believe me call me on a cell phone jesus...It's all about science..

can I call you on your cell phone?

458 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:29:30pm

re: #384 Maximu§

I have a life, I run a small company, am raising a family and talking care of my house. I don't have 8 hours a day to sit here and post on LGF, but if you think that makes a person smarter, than your totally screwed up.

In that light, thats why I don't bag on NooB's, cause that person with 9 posts may have served 22 years in the USMC and have a college degree.

* * *
Thank you for some straight talk. Thank you for being a doer and productive person. Thanks for remembering our troops who serve & put their lives at risk for their principles.

459 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:29:56pm

re: #442 Sharmuta

You said:


You tell me how I should interpret that.


Sharmuta, you are obviously a valued cog in the LGF wheel but sometimes you are ridiculous..this is one of those times...

460 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:30:01pm

re: #340 Sharmuta

I'm too staunch in my support of science and the Constitution on a blog that's pissing off the creationists. My reward is snide, threatening comments.


But, hey. It just makes it all worthwhile!

461 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:30:05pm

re: #429 Iron Fist

[Link: www.grist.org...]

462 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:30:24pm

re: #153 Spar Kling

Not true. Creationism specifically credits (typically) a Jewish, Christian, or Islamic God. All three religions look to Genesis as authoritative to some degree and purpose. In contrast, Intelligent Design is agnostic. It credits some form of intelligence as the source of design and engineering of living things, but takes no position on whether the source is a single being, multiple beings, extraterrestrial (perhaps originating in one of Carl Sagan's millions of life-supporting planets), or whatever, even God.

This misnomer makes as much sense as identifying all Democrats as Communists, all Republicans as Conservatives, all Germans as Nazis, and so on. It might make it easier to attack ID as not scientific, but it does not come close to the truth.

Most astrophyicists accept the beginning of the "big bang" as a discontinuity where the present universe came into existence. This does NOT make them creationists, nor do they use this as a nefarious way of bringing God into science classrooms.

-sk

The Discovery Institute created the term "intelligent design' in order to circumvent a judicial prohibition against teaching creationism in the public schools. They're the same thing. They're both theism, pure and simple, and embrace Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (plus a few other minor faiths). The Judeo-Christian-Islamic God IS the 'single being' they intend.

Don't make me laugh with the idea of ETs (which would be their "multiple beings", not the Hindu Gods - Hindus don't buy into the ID crapola, so don't claim that they do) planting life here as an alternative to evolution, because the ETs themselves would have had to evolve somewhere in the universe - this futile attempt at a dodge kicks the evolutionary can down the road, but not off it.

Both creationism and ID are not only religious dogmas, but also sectarian ones, as they exclude religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism.

463 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:31:07pm

re: #459 joecitizen

Sharmuta, you are obviously a valued cog in the LGF wheel but sometimes you are ridiculous..this is one of those times...

are you a judge by trade?...jus askin

464 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:31:17pm

re: #453 LGoPs

I never understood the appeal of Fourbucks.....although my hats off to the guys that figured a way to convince people to pay a small fortune for hot flavored water.
I've never been a conoyser of coffee although I can't face life without it in the morning. Just give me a cup of hot Joe....canteen cup's fine....with grass and twigs in it for extra fiber............
:)


Same here A pot every day
I only by coffee at the gas station when I have too

465 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:31:19pm

re: #459 joecitizen

And if someone said that to you, you wouldn't think twice about it?

466 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:31:31pm

re: #417 Racer X

How Evolution Is Scientific Part 1: Observational Data

Has evolution been observed? Yes.

Next:

How Evolution Is Scientific Part 2: Accurate Predictions

467 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:32:01pm
468 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:32:06pm

re: #454 Shug

Where's my Claritin?

Just be glad I didn't turn it into a p*nis thread. :D Which I could still do.....

469 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:32:41pm

re: #429 Iron Fist

Oh, come on! Next you are going to tell me that some mythological nuclear fire at the center of the solar system is hot enough to effect the Earth 93 skajillion miles away. Everyone knows that SUVs produce all the warming in the Universe. Well, except for the warming caused by American coal-fired power plants.

It's that far, damn... my idea will never work......
I wonder how many Suburbans are driving to the grocery store in this neighborhood.

470 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:33:01pm

re: #463 albusteve

are you a judge by trade?...jus askin


da hangin' judge fer sure..

471 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:33:22pm

re: #445 mockery jones

wow. could you have set me up better?

however. in deference to the board, and because i really don't want to give anyone a coronary tonight . i will simply concede the point. Creationism has no place among the schools of all but the most inbred.

you are welcome.

If you have a point you should make it. If I gave you a great set up to shoot me down . . . do it. Why not?

Your sentence "creationism has no place among the schools of all but the most inbred" makes absolutely no sense at all. What does that mean?

472 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:33:27pm

re: #467 Iron Fist

I keep forgetting that. But does that mean that the Global Warmists want to reduce India's CO2 output?

The answer is yes, and yes also for China.

473 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:33:27pm

re: #420 Dave the.....

Yep that is a cat.

474 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:33:35pm

re: #175 Maximu§

Your a good Man Rick. I don't like extremists on ether side...I dislike the far-right Christian's just as much as I dislike the Pure secularists who want to erase Christianity from our culture.

America was built on Judeo-Christian values.

America was built on Greco-Roman values just as much - and they were Pagans.

475 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:33:40pm

re: #470 joecitizen

da hangin' judge fer sure..

I see that...

476 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:34:26pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

There are already a lot of comments on this thread and it looks like many, if not most, of them actually address the issue and the story. At the risk of wasting my time, let me just say this:

I'm a preacher at a theologically conservative church which is largely made up of people who are culturally tolerant but personally conservative. I lean toward a libertarian view on issues such as drug legalization, etc., and I also seriously doubt that Darwinism/evolution explain life on this planet.

That being said, however, I also believe that Creationism, as a belief/doctrine, is a matter of faith and should therefore not be taught in public schools. I have no problem with science classes teaching evolution as the current/best scientific understanding of life in its varied forms on this planet.

Here's my question for Charles and the Lizardoids who are terribly exercised about this whole matter: Is the tent big enough for libertarian-leaning conservatives such as myself? Or, must I be purged from the Right side of the political spectrum?

I'll let Stinky Beaumont field that one:

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

477 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:34:36pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

Why would you take that attitude from this thread if you believe what you wrote?

478 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:34:38pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

Hey, you're a reasonable fellow, of course you're welcomed here =)

By the way, I noticed you waited several months since you have posted your first comment. Have you've been lurking here to get educated on this subject? Well, hope to see you post here more often.

479 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:34:41pm

re: #435 NptPrchr IMHO, of course it is -if only there were more people that mirrored the sentiment in your third paragraph. It's when those values are forced into the classroom that things get dicey. Charles made a good point about this upthread where he mentions that he was able to defend S. Palin who, while a creationist, did not push it as policy as Governor.

480 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:35:04pm
481 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:35:04pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

And if someone said that to you, you wouldn't think twice about it?


not for a second, especially if I had as many posts as you..it was quite an innocent comment in my estimation...

482 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:35:05pm

re: #434 Sheepdogess

They are saying just a few flurries....

Snow is snow, as far as I am concerned. Even a few flakes freaks out most drivers here.

483 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:35:33pm

re: #467 Iron Fist

Oh, you un-nuanced little fool. Indian cows are enlightened, they understand their place in the collective soul. Their flatulence does not harm the environment! Oh no! It helps the environment by providing C02 to plants so that we have nice, clean air.

484 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:35:38pm

re: #388 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Mexican culture is fine, it's those running the country that are the problem.

* * * *
Hello, Marxists ran Mexico for 70 years straight into the gutter & narcotrafficking high heaven.

Current government is trying to be conservative, if you can imagine what that's like when no one under 70 years old knows anything BUT the welfare state's tit, corruption, and narcotrafficking.

70 years of one party rule! That's like the Soviet Union's 70 years of one party rule.

Is it any wonder some of these places don't function after 70 years of socialist, command economy, indoctrination?

Let's not let that happen here. Teach your children what made our country's history unique, our devotion to individual life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

485 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:36:04pm

Speaking of creationists, Huckabee's dreary show is on Fox right now.

I always look forward to the musical attempts.

486 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:36:13pm

re: #476 Charles

why are these people so windy?....cut to the chase please

487 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:36:51pm

re: #456 ThinkRight

Damn cats
Obama is a cat person I bet
/

Mohammed was a cat person - it's the one thing I like about him.

President O is a non-pet person. If people with pets had been the only voters, he would have lost, according to the surveys before the election. However, he is going to have to break down and get his daughters a dog now.

488 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:36:59pm

re: #472 freetoken

But not russia, never russia.

489 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:36:59pm

re: #183 mockery jones

why not?

it's sure better than teaching about billy having two daddies. better use of time too.....

I don't think that social themes are usually discussed in science class. But thank you for posting one of the most egregious non sequiters it has been my privilege to read on LGF, as well as one of the biggest straw men and one of the stinkiest red herrings.

490 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:37:26pm

re: #485 Charles


I always look forward to the musical attempts.

Err... I'm afraid to ask what that is.

491 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:37:35pm

re: #485 Charles

reason 8,765 that I don't want TV.

Seriously? He has his own show now? Who knew.

492 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:37:37pm

re: #443 BatGuano

I see it as an official document that gives direct insight into the thought processes and opinions of the people who founded the USA and framed it's Constitution. Our gov't, and our nation have been secular* since it's foundation.

*not overtly or specifically religious

493 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:37:42pm

re: #481 joecitizen

not for a second, especially if I had as many posts as you..it was quite an innocent comment in my estimation...

post numbers dont mean shit...why dont you let Sharmuta handle her own affairs?...nobody asked you

494 LGoPs  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:38:05pm

re: #469 jcm

It's that far, damn... my idea will never work......
I wonder how many Suburbans are driving to the grocery store in this neighborhood.

Triton, seems to have heated up significantly since the Voyager space probe visited it in 1989.

Well there you have it.......it's man again. Voyager is a man-made object and clearly it's passing has warmed up Triton.......
/

495 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:38:13pm

I voted for Bush and I'm not a neocon, I voted for Nixon and and I'm not a Paleocon, I campaigned for Young and I'm not a paleo libertarian. So what should I be, an Empiricon?

496 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:38:15pm

re: #427 ThinkRight

Starbucks

re: #418 ArmyWife

Starbucks coffee - $25.00 a gallon
Gas at it's highest - $4.00 a gallon

497 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:38:21pm

re: #488 swamprat

Russia is a major exporter of carbon and has made it quite clear they intend to continue so...

498 n in wi  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:38:30pm

re: #487 Catttt

Mohammed was a cat person - it's the one thing I like about him.

President O is a non-pet person. If people with pets had been the only voters, he would have lost, according to the surveys before the election. However, he is going to have to break down and get his daughters a dog now.

Didn't Mark Twain something like never trust a man that doesn't like dogs?

499 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:39:05pm

re: #495 Thanos

I voted for Bush and I'm not a neocon, I voted for Nixon and and I'm not a Paleocon, I campaigned for Young and I'm not a paleo libertarian. So what should I be, an Empiricon?

a simple honco...get used to it amigo....

500 Syrah  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:39:16pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

It is good for everyone involved to keep a cool head.

501 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:39:18pm

Miss America bathing suit competition is on TLC right now.

502 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:39:49pm

re: #501 MandyManners

Miss America bathing suit competition is on TLC right now.

Miss Georgia's name is Chastity Hardman. I kid you not.

503 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:39:56pm

re: #487 Catttt
I was just picking on you
The kids picking a dog over a cat says alot tho
I like cats as long as they are not mine
Way too needy and very temperamental
/sounds like my wife
/

504 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:40:00pm

re: #489 Salamantis

I don't think that social themes are usually discussed in science class. But thank you for posting one of the most egregious non sequiters it has been my privilege to read on LGF, as well as one of the biggest straw men and one of the stinkiest red herrings.

Oh, great, Sala, please deal with mockery jones, I can't figure out what he's saying, too vague for my feeble mind.

505 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:40:13pm

re: #471 reine.de.tout

i don't shoot you down because i believe you would have taken my next line of argument as a personal attack and a chat room argument just isn't worth that kind of bad karma.

as for the inbred comment it was a joke.
lighten up brother.

506 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:40:17pm

re: #493 albusteve

post numbers dont mean shit...why dont you let Sharmuta handle her own affairs?...nobody asked you


there are no private conversations on LGF..oh, and fuck you

507 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:40:35pm
508 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:40:47pm

The cat left a message.......

509 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:41:12pm

re: #431 Dave the.....

416 Alegrias


Back in the 90s, Tsongas came to Wisconsin to campaign for Republican congresman Steve Gunderson. The chairman of a county party said, when introducing Tsongas, something (jokingly) like "If you had worked harder in 1992, we won't be dealing with Clinton today".

* * **
Lucky you. Thanks for sharing that.

Paul Tsongas wasn't selling "bridges to the 21st century" like a sleazy used car salesman from HOPIUM, like Bill Clinton was in 1991-92!

Sorry the Dems in 92 went for the sleazy Southern slob Clinton instead of the roly poly non-panderer serious guy New Englander Tsongas.

510 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:41:17pm

re: #457 outsidephilly

can I call you on your cell phone?

LOL
I meant the technology of a cell call didn't evolve by nature..or something like that friend..
I got 20 more minutes to be an idiot here....
Charles..you're favorite guitarist of all time? The dude that just rocked your world and directed your life? Charles?

511 LGoPs  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:41:25pm

re: #502 MandyManners

Miss Georgia's name is Chastity Hardman. I kid you not.

Sounds like a pron star name........
/ LOL

512 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:41:57pm

re: #501 MandyManners

Miss America bathing suit competition is on TLC right now.

Bless you!

*runs into other room*

513 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:14pm

re: #505 mockery jones

i don't shoot you down because i believe you would have taken my next line of argument as a personal attack and a chat room argument just isn't worth that kind of bad karma.

as for the inbred comment it was a joke.
lighten up brother.

I'm a tough cookie.
And as a "reine", a sister (not a brother) cookie, at that.

The inbred comment was not funny.

514 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:22pm

re: #485 Charles

Speaking of creationists, Huckabee's dreary show is on Fox right now.

I always look forward to the musical attempts.

I haven't turned my TV on in a while, but when I do watch Gov. Huckabee's show, I always think of you when the garage band comes on. I try to listen to them, but I usually end up muting them.

515 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:30pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

Good thing my car doesn't run on Starbucks, huh?

516 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:37pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

Here's my question for Charles and the Lizardoids who are terribly exercised about this whole matter: Is the tent big enough for libertarian-leaning conservatives such as myself? Or, must I be purged from the Right side of the political spectrum?

This site is filled with libertarian-leaning conservative folks. Your choice of "terribly exercised" is a bit off-put-ing. But aside from that I see nothing in what you said that is offensive to me.
As a religious leader: you are faced with a marvelous world full of wonder. In this world we have found an enormous quanitity of fossils, DNA evidence, retroviral evidence that leads only in one direction--down a path of evolutionary change. Where do you find the problem with accepting this as the 'how' of creation?

517 Wendya  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:42pm

re: #373 Thanos

I am making a joke, but it's also somewhat serious. I've been a Republican all my life (except a short stint where I campaigned for Don Young in AK, the affair with the libertarians was short lived,) which includes donations, voting, campaigning etc. etc. but I really have no voice in the party, atheists are an ill-served portion of the Republican base.

I understand but that's not going to change. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about anyone's religious beliefs. I have known atheists, like my husband, who are far more "moral" than most Christians I've encountered. That doesn't make all atheists good, or all Christians bad. Your actions and behavior are a far greater indicator of your character than any religious beliefs you profess to follow.

518 Honorary Yooper  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:48pm

re: #485 Charles

Speaking of creationists, Huckabee's dreary show is on Fox right now.

I always look forward to the musical attempts.

Without that dipshit in the primaries, we might have President Romney right now.

Sigh.

519 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:42:55pm

re: #502 MandyManners

Miss Georgia's name is Chastity Hardman. I kid you not.

rofl!

520 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:43:05pm

re: #484 alegrias

* * * *
Let's not let that happen here. Teach your children what made our country's history unique, our devotion to individual life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Hear, hear! I would also add that we need to teach our children what a miracle and precious gift our Constitution is. It is the foundation for our greatness as a nation and its equal cannot be found on the planet.

521 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:43:15pm

re: #503 ThinkRight

I was just picking on you
The kids picking a dog over a cat says alot tho
I like cats as long as they are not mine
Way too needy and very temperamental
/sounds like my wife
/

You can pick on me. My fur protects me. :D

522 gclaghorn  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:43:31pm

re: #502 MandyManners

Miss Georgia's name is Chastity Hardman. I kid you not.

LOLOL! :)

523 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:43:32pm

re: #501 MandyManners

Miss America bathing suit competition is on TLC right now.


TLC ?
We be learnin huh ?

524 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:43:43pm

God, please let Miss Georgia win. Please please please.

525 grahamski  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:43:51pm

Gimme that old time religion......Ooops, wrong thread....

526 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:06pm

re: #523 ThinkRight

TLC ?
We be learnin huh ?

Anatomy?

527 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:09pm

re: #517 Wendya

I have to agree

528 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:33pm

re: #497 freetoken

Russia is a major exporter of carbon and has made it quite clear they intend to continue so...

I'm sure you are wrong. I have never heard of Russia contributing to global warming. It is never mentioned on NPR, Reuters or The New York Times. You must be mistaken.

529 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:37pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

And if someone said that to you, you wouldn't think twice about it?

Please tell me what I said that could possibly be taken that threat you, you have over 39,000 post how could I not know about you? Please get real.

530 Dave the.....  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:41pm

I like what Norquist said....something to the affect that there are limited gov't business types, limited gov't social conservatives, limited gov't personal freedom types, etc.

If there are 10 small gov't due to business issues, and 10 due to social conservative, instead of trying to kick out the 10 social conservatives, you should find 5 more financial conservatives to join. Then you have 25 on your side instead of 10.

531 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:46pm

re: #501 MandyManners

Miss America bathing suit competition is on TLC right now.

Whoa. I just tuned in. I haven't seen one of these since I was a kid in the 80's. This is a LOT different than I remember.

532 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:44:54pm

re: #510 HoosierHoops

Charles..you're favorite guitarist of all time?

Don't have one. There are too many excellent musicians to pick just one above all.

533 Honorary Yooper  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:02pm

re: #501 MandyManners

Miss America bathing suit competition is on TLC right now.

I guess it's The Ladies Channel now, eh.

534 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:06pm

re: #489 Salamantis

and meant to be.

considering the level of vehemence i'm getting for just stating that i really don't care if my children are taught creationism in school and that I believe it important for kids to at least know the creation stories are you really shocked i'm going to resort to every trick in the book. including a abject concession that has apparently been rejected

535 Cathypop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:06pm

re: #508 jcm

The cat left a message.......


Definetly not from my cat Jennifer because she love the juice from tuna cans

536 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:48pm

re: #523 ThinkRight

TLC ?
We be learnin huh ?

Whether they evolved or they were created, those are some fine specimens of American womanhood on that stage.

537 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:52pm

re: #485 Charles

Speaking of creationists, Huckabee's dreary show is on Fox right now.

I always look forward to the musical attempts.

Just out of curiosity, how many media venues are you monitoring at the same time.

538 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:53pm

Miss Georgia's Web site - she sings! She's good.

539 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:45:57pm

re: #506 joecitizen

there are no private conversations on LGF..oh, and fuck you

typical...fuck me...fewer people care about your point of view than you think joe...you'd be better served to give your opinion if your asked...minding your own business has it's merits which apparently elude you...

540 BatGuano  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:46:27pm

re: #492 Slumbering Behemoth

Fair enough.

541 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:47:02pm

re: #482 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hey, I live here too...28" last month and we live on a hill hill that never gets plowed. Ugh.

542 LGoPs  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:47:24pm

re: #497 freetoken

Russia is a major exporter of carbon and has made it quite clear they intend to continue so...

And the middle east is a major exporter of carbomb and has made it quite clear they intend to continue so
/

543 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:47:25pm

re: #467 Iron Fist

I keep forgetting that. But does that mean that the Global Warmists want to reduce India's CO2 output? They're not America, so I suppose it's alright if their cows fart. It is the American cows that are the problem.

* * *
You asked for it: sorry I couldn't help myself:

India would be exempted from these green global warming cow fart-oulawing laws, because hers are SACRED COWS.

544 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:47:25pm

Oldie but goodie - skip if you have already read it......

Diary of a Dog - Diary of a Cat

EXCERPTS FROM A DOG'S DIARY

Day number 180
8:00 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
9:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
9:40 am - OH BOY! A WALK! MY FAVORITE!
10:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
11:30 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
12:00 noon - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
1:00 pm - OH BOY! THE YARD! MY FAVORITE!
4:00 pm - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
5:00 PM - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
5:30 PM - OH BOY! MOM! MY FAVORITE!

Day number 181
8:00 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
9:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
9:40 am - OH BOY! A WALK! MY FAVORITE!
10:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
11:30 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
12:00 noon - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
1:00 pm - OH BOY! THE YARD! MY FAVORITE!
4:00 pm - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
5:00 PM - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
5:30 PM - OH BOY! MOM! MY FAVORITE!

Day number 182
8:00 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
9:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
9:40 am - OH BOY! A WALK! MY FAVORITE!

EXCERPTS FROM A CAT'S DIARY

DAY 752 - My captors continue to taunt me with bizarre little dangling objects. They dine lavishly on fresh meat, while I am forced to eat dry cereal. The only thing that keeps me going is the hope of escape, and the mild satisfaction I get from ruining the occasional piece of furniture. Tomorrow I may eat another houseplant.

DAY 761 - Today my attempt to kill my captors by weaving around their feet while they were walking almost succeeded, must try this at the top of the stairs. In an attempt to disgust and repulse these vile oppressors, I once again induced myself to vomit on their favorite chair ... must try this on their bed.

DAY 765 - Decapitated a mouse and brought them the headless body, in attempt to make them aware of what I am capable of, and to try to strike fear into their hearts. They only cooed and condescended about what a good little cat I was...Hmmm. Not working according to plan.

DAY 768 - I am finally aware of how sadistic they are. For no good reason I was chosen for the water torture. This time however it included a burning foamy chemical called "shampoo." What sick minds could invent such a liquid. My only consolation is the piece of thumb still stuck between my teeth.

DAY 771 - There was some sort of gathering of their accomplices. I was placed in solitary throughout the event. However, I could hear the noise and smell the foul odor of the glass tubes they call "beer". More importantly I overheard that my confinement was due to MY power of "allergies." Must learn what this is and how to use it to my advantage.

DAY 774 - I am convinced the other captives are flunkies and maybe snitches. The dog is routinely released and seems more than happy to return. He is obviously a half-wit. The bird on the other hand has got to be an informant, and speaks with them regularly. I am certain he reports my every move. Due to his current placement in the metal room his safety is assured. But I can wait, it is only a matter of time...

545 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:47:29pm

Beauty and brains?

Youtube Video
546 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:47:41pm

re: #513 reine.de.tout

"The inbred comment was not funny."

hey we can't all be jerry luis......

547 ThinkRight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:48:54pm

re: #536 MandyManners

Whether they evolved or they were created, those are some fine specimens of American womanhood on that stage.


Oh yeah
Sure is better than Huckabee that everyone lse is watching

548 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:49:13pm

re: #472 freetoken

The answer is yes, and yes also for China.

* * *
You could never get liberals to ban all the panda-farts in China.

549 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:49:23pm

re: #474 Salamantis

America was built on Greco-Roman values just as much - and they were Pagans.

So then it's safe to say America was built on Judeo-Christian-Pagan values?

Never really thought about it in those terms, think I'll go make some heads explode tomorrow. :)

550 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:49:36pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

Not a single cat mention in the Bible.

Ahem -- as I posted at the tail end of a dying thread last month:

re: #114 goddessoftheclassroom

Funny enough, I can't think of a single reference to cats in the entire Bible; I know there are a few to dogs (don't say it, p-BMb!). Does anyone know of any cat references?

In case anyone is ever on Jeopardy, the correct answer is:

"What is the Apocryphal book of Baruch, Alex?"

In the final chapter of Baruch -- a chapter that is sometimes referred to as "The Epistle of Jeremiah" and sometimes as "Baruch, Chapter 6" -- the author mocks the helpless, inanimate carved "gods" of Babylon:

3: Now shall ye see in Babylon gods of silver, and of gold, and of wood, borne upon shoulders, which cause the nations to fear. [...] 11: Yet cannot these gods save themselves from rust and moth, though they be covered with purple raiment. [...] 14: [One of the male gods] hath also in his right hand a dagger and an ax: but cannot deliver himself from war and thieves. 15: Whereby they are known not to be gods: therefore fear them not. [...] 19: [The gods] are as one of the beams of the temple, yet they say their hearts are gnawed upon by things creeping out of the earth; and when they eat them and their clothes, they feel it not. [...] 21: Upon their bodies and heads sit bats, swallows, and birds, and the cats also. 22: By this ye may know that they are no gods: therefore fear them not.

Like the other books of the Apocrypha, Baruch is regarded by Roman Catholics as part of the canonical "Old Testament," but is considered inauthentic (i.e., not divinely inspired) by most Protestant Christians and by Jews.

551 Sunlight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:49:49pm

What about Eric Cantor from VA? Maybe he could do some podcasts on this religion/science stuff. I think I'm going to write him a letter. If these people pushing their religious beliefs on everybody else are the loudest in the (R) party, then they're going to lose many many people. I think they've confused the idea of maintaining values with insisting on religious doctrine. And in the old days, courtesy played a role in not pushing things onto others.

552 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:49:57pm

re: #487 Catttt

I'll bet the O doesn't get a dog.

553 solomonpanting  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:18pm

re: #507 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe we can go from evolutionary theory to string bikini theory.

OR would like that.

Does that explain the evolution of the bikini from one piece to two?

554 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:22pm
555 Cathypop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:39pm

re: #548 alegrias

* * *
You could never get liberals to ban all the panda-farts in China.


Why don't liberals want to ban panda farts?

556 Dave the.....  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:42pm
Just out of curiosity, how many media venues are you monitoring at the same time.

We're all picturing Charles in some kind of science fiction control room....monitors all over the place. Phone ringing with a blinking red light.....

557 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:44pm

From an email my sister just sent me:

This was simply too much of a time saver not to share it with you
How to clean a toilet

1. Put both lids of the toilet up and add 1/8 cup of pet shampoo to the water in the bowl.
2. Pick up the cat and soothe him while you carry him towards the bathroom.
3. In one smooth movement, put the cat in the toilet and close the lid. You may need to stand on the lid.
4. The cat will self agitate and make ample suds. Never mind the noises that come from the toilet, the cat is actually enjoying this.
5. Flush the toilet three or four times. This provides a 'power-wash' and rinse'.
6. Have someone open the front door of your home. Be sure that there are no people between the bathroom and the front door.
7. Stand behind the toilet as far as you can, and quickly lift the lid.
8. The cat will rocket out of the toilet, streak through the bathroom, and run outside where he will dry himself off.
9. Both the commode and the cat will be sparkling clean.

Sincerely,

The Dog

558 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:51pm
559 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:50:52pm

re: #243 Maximu§

Ah, the down-dinger speaks up.

Yes, there is a clear separation from Church-and-State, but Christian VALUES are ingrained into most Americans and those VALUES have made us a great country. If given a choice, I would rather see the 10 Commandments on a classroom wall, than phone numbers to the nearest abortion clinic.

Mockery Jones endeavored to distract this thread into a wrangle over homosexuality:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And now you have endeavored to distract it into a wrangle over abortion. Neither of which concern the teaching of empirical science rather than religious dogma in public high school science class.

Do you two co-ordinate? Is this one of the common creationist ploys these days?

560 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:03pm

Gretchen Carlson from FNC is on.

561 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:16pm

re: #553 solomonpanting

Does that explain the evolution of the bikini from one piece to two?

I'm researching this phenomenon at this very moment...haha!

562 Honorary Yooper  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:37pm

re: #553 solomonpanting

Does that explain the evolution of the bikini from one piece to two?

The second piece is an accessory to the first piece, and may not be required for the theory.

563 DEZes  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:45pm

re: #555 Cathypop

Why don't liberals want to ban panda farts?

They are like Unicorn farts. ;)

564 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:46pm

re: #539 albusteve

typical...fuck me...fewer people care about your point of view than you think joe...you'd be better served to give your opinion if your asked...minding your own business has it's merits which apparently elude you...


wow..you sound almost like a liberal..really don't give a rats ass how many care about my opinion..it is what it is

565 Miss Trixie  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:50pm

re: #449 Catttt

Cat thread! Woot!

Just for you. :D

Youtube Video
566 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:51:55pm

re: #550 Throbert McGee

Interesting. Thanks.

567 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:52:17pm

re: #545 jcm

Beauty and brains?

[Video]

Well, that was depressing.

568 Digital Display  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:52:20pm

re: #532 Charles

Don't have one. There are too many excellent musicians to pick just one above all.

Hey Charles..Thanks for your input...
Will you hate me if I think Joe is the greatest guitarists of all time?
[Link: www.satriani.com...]
Although.. one night I heard a jazz band called Oregon at the great American Music Hall in SF that really blew my mind...

569 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:52:23pm

re: #549 Slumbering Behemoth

So then it's safe to say America was built on Judeo-Christian-Pagan values?

Never really thought about it in those terms, think I'll go make some heads explode tomorrow. :)

Here's some background on that if you want it:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

570 Cathypop  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:52:30pm

re: #563 DEZes

They are like Unicorn farts. ;)

Are they toxic or just liberals

571 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:52:40pm

re: #553 solomonpanting

Does that explain the evolution of the bikini from one piece to two?

Now that is Intelligent Design!

572 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:52:49pm

re: #565 Miss Trixie

Love the sound effect!

573 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:53:05pm

re: #541 Sheepdogess

Hey, I live here too...28" last month and we live on a hill hill that never gets plowed. Ugh.

Top of a hill as well, with only two steep roads off, with the single road at the top that never gets plowed and any snow always turns to a sheet of ice is why I don't like snow. And the average driver can't drive when it rains, snow is panic time.

574 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:53:36pm

re: #485 Charles

Speaking of creationists, Huckabee's dreary show is on Fox right now.

I always look forward to the musical attempts.

* * *
Have a heart! I could do without the lame rock 'n' rollers.

But what's not to like about Huckabee getting inaugural tickets for some mostly black girls school and their teacher (ivy prep academy.com)? They were in the Fox studio, sitting & behaving so well disciplined in their Catholic school uniforms...THAT give me HOPE!

575 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:53:39pm

Obama's Little Blue Book

/obey and order yours today!

576 DEZes  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:54:03pm

re: #570 Cathypop

Are they toxic or just liberals


Liberals are most likely toxic, but certainly noxious.
Unicorn farts, never smelled one. ;)

577 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:54:33pm

re: #560 MandyManners

Gretchen Carlson from FNC is on.


she won back in '89, I believe...

578 solomonpanting  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:54:35pm

re: #562 Honorary Yooper

The second piece is an accessory to the first piece, and may not be required for the theory.

I don't suppose it matters which is "second" and which is "first"?

579 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:54:40pm
580 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:54:46pm

re: #529 BBev

I asked you twice what you meant by that, and you still don't answer me. But enough. This isn't about my faith, or what you think you know about me.

As for the remainder of your ignorant comment- I up ding people of faith as well, when I agree with them. But please, don't let me stop you from your persecution fantasies.

581 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:55:17pm

re: #558 Iron Fist

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

582 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:55:42pm

re: #252 BBev

I agree with you soooooooo much on that one, It will be a sad day when America is no longer a Christian nation.

America isn't a Christian nation now; we're a secular nation whose citizens are majority Christian. Bit the Reconstructionists and Dominionists wanna morph us into a Christian nation by tossing out the US Constitution and installing the Bible in its place. Kinda like a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

That action would be a farewell to constitutional democracy and a welcome to theocracy. America would cease to exist, because America is an idea, and such a move would murder that idea.

583 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:55:57pm

re: #379 Racer X

He made you post that.

Just possibly He did.

584 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:56:10pm

Gah.

It's the Huckabee Musical Attempt. Fox babes living out their fantasies.

585 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:56:55pm

re: #564 joecitizen

wow..you sound almost like a liberal..really don't give a rats ass how many care about my opinion..it is what it is

I'm speaking with regard to your butting in....you tell me to fuck off and now I'm a liberal?...and yes you are what you are...

586 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:57:29pm

re: #553 solomonpanting

Does that explain the evolution of the bikini from one piece to two?

Nudism must be an evolutionary dead end.....

587 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:57:43pm

re: #549 Slumbering Behemoth

So then it's safe to say America was built on Judeo-Christian-Pagan values?

Never really thought about it in those terms, think I'll go make some heads explode tomorrow. :)


Of course it is. Democracy is an ancient Greek word, Republic is an ancient Latin word, both words pre-date Christianity.

588 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:57:46pm

One of the guitarists was flailing so hard he broke a string.

589 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:57:47pm
590 solomonpanting  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:08pm

re: #571 Racer X

Now that is Intelligent Design!

One can make the case that a two-piece breaks the continuity of form.
Jess Sayin'

591 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:12pm

re: #573 FurryOldGuyJeans

Are you in Seattle?

592 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:24pm

re: #507 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe we can go from evolutionary theory to string bikini theory.

OR would like that.

* * **
Speaking of string theory & gravity defying physics, the current front cover of Maxim magazine had a gorgeous girl in a black crocheted one- piece that was pretty nice. (was at the drugstore buying cough medicine)

593 Bloodnok  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:29pm

re: #584 Charles

Gah.

It's the Huckabee Musical Attempt. Fox babes living out their fantasies.

Painful.

594 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:32pm

re: #589 buzzsawmonkey

Hasta la taco, Buzz. Be good!

595 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:47pm

I may have to start liveblogging Huckabee's musical attempts.

596 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:49pm

Wow. Miss Tennessee sure has changed since my tap-dance instructor won.

Some of these gowns are incredibly revealing. Miss Hawaii's was split way up her leg to the top of her thigh.

597 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:53pm

re: #589 buzzsawmonkey

Hasta manana, honcos.

hola amigo....what's shakin?

598 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:58:56pm

re: #580 Sharmuta

I asked you twice what you meant by that, and you still don't answer me. But enough. This isn't about my faith, or what you think you know about me.

As for the remainder of your ignorant comment- I up ding people of faith as well, when I agree with them. But please, don't let me stop you from your persecution fantasies.

Persecution fantasies? What the hell are you talking about? As I said before you are nuts.

599 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:59:19pm

Samudra Plays

Youtube Video
600 Dustyvet  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:59:24pm

re: #575 Killian Bundy

Obama's Little Blue Book

/obey and order yours today!

"It is an unofficial requirement for every citizen to own, to read, and to carry this book at all times."


Are the pages 3 PLY? Would Mr. Whipple want to squeeze them?

601 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:59:33pm

re: #585 albusteve

I'm speaking with regard to your butting in....you tell me to fuck off and now I'm a liberal?...and yes you are what you are...


this is an internet blog..butting in is the point

602 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:59:37pm

re: #584 Charles

Gah.

It's the Huckabee Musical Attempt. Fox babes living out their fantasies.

ROFLMAO

603 ArmyWife  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 5:59:50pm

re: #575 Killian Bundy

Does it come with a free copy of Biden Gaffes?

604 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:00:00pm

re: #401 Thanos

Yes, Don was a Libertarian in his first election. I'm still Republican, though many would call me a Rino because I disagree with them on some social issues.

You hang in there man. The party needs to get back to its libertarian and national security roots.

605 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:00:04pm
606 VegasRick  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:00:07pm

re: #592 alegrias

* * **
Speaking of string theory & gravity defying physics, the current front cover of Maxim magazine had a gorgeous girl in a black crocheted one- piece that was pretty nice. (was at the drugstore buying cough medicine)

*cough* Riiiighhttt!

607 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:00:21pm

re: #485 Charles

Speaking of creationists, Huckabee's dreary show is on Fox right now.

I always look forward to the musical attempts.


I can't play a musical instrument so I don't want to criticize somebody's playing ability, but I've always noticed that whenever Huck plays his bass he makes the same face my baby makes when he's pooping.

608 Racer X  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:00:32pm

re: #595 Charles

I may have to start liveblogging Huckabee's musical attempts.

Show 'em how it's done boss!

Post some of your stuff!

609 Dave the.....  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:01:05pm

I'm more intestested in the Blogo quote book:

"I've got this thing and it's &%*@ GOLDEN!

610 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:01:27pm

Miss Arkansas is cuter than a button. No, she's beautiful.

611 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:01:39pm

re: #582 Salamantis

I respectfully disagree.

612 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:02:21pm

Talent's next!

613 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:02:24pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

I'm a preacher at a theologically conservative church which is largely made up of people who are culturally tolerant but personally conservative. I lean toward a libertarian view on issues such as drug legalization, etc., and I also seriously doubt that Darwinism/evolution explain life on this planet.

Preacher, check out my post # 233, above, and see if it makes sense to you.

614 albusteve  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:02:53pm

re: #601 joecitizen

this is an internet blog..butting in is the point

speak for yourself....if you choose to be a butthead so be it...no one will stop you...you judge others but dont like it when you yourself are judged....take your own advice....and calling people names does not become you....

615 Shug  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:03:15pm

oh Good, the Lost rerun is on from Wednesday.
I can shut off Glen Beck

616 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:03:18pm

re: #611 Sheepdogess

In which ways? (Not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious)

617 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:03:20pm

re: #595 Charles

I may have to start liveblogging Huckabee's musical attempts.

I have never known you to be a cruel man.

Before.

618 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:03:48pm

re: #582 Salamantis

America isn't a Christian nation now; we're a secular nation whose citizens are majority Christian. Bit the Reconstructionists and Dominionists wanna morph us into a Christian nation by tossing out the US Constitution and installing the Bible in its place. Kinda like a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

That action would be a farewell to constitutional democracy and a welcome to theocracy. America would cease to exist, because America is an idea, and such a move would murder that idea.

You have got to be kidding me, you really believe that?

619 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:03:54pm

re: #518 Honorary Yooper

Without that dipshit in the primaries, we might have President Romney right now.

Sigh.


* * *
Amen, the one that got away...

Fortunately, Mitt Romney can commentate intelligently & positively about the coming USS Hindenburg/Greatest Depression evah, for four years. Must keep our wits about us.

620 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:04:34pm

re: #595 Charles

I may have to start liveblogging Huckabee's musical attempts.

Aw, cut him some slack, Charles. I've played with worse. I'm thankful he's found a gig that has no influence on actual policy.

And, speaking as an Arkansan, he was not a bad Governor.

621 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:05:53pm

re: #618 BBev

So you don't have a clue who Rushdoony is?

622 jcm  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:05:59pm

re: #581 Basho

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

Kyoto is economic socialism on a global scale.

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

Rachel Carson? Paul R. Ehrlich? James Hansen?

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

They have a minor point on chaotic systems, but to imply we even begin to understand the number of dynamic systems that make up climate is arrogant.

623 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:06:35pm

These people are so ignorant and illogical that they can't help exposing themselves as nincompoops every time they open their mouths.

This one is a real howler:

"There are many, many gaps that don’t link species changing and evolving into another species..."

Let's parse that, shall we?

There are these gaps, you see, and what they do is, they don't link species to other species.

Well, Abner, that's because they're gaps. You can't fault a gap for not linking something to something else. That's what gaps do. In fact, gaps don't do anything; they are holes, areas of nothingness, and thus can't prove or disprove anything about anything.

You inbred chucklehead.

(I've said for years they ought to bring back the rigorous study of syllogistic reasoning in high schools. Most college students have difficulty constructing a watertight argument about anything. But I doubt even force-feeding with Aristotelian logic would have helped this fool.)

624 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:06:35pm

Oh, I nearly forgot.

re: #212 SpaceJesus

is it too late to give Texas back to Mexico?

This native born (and still residing) Californian says "Fuck no!" to that. Not one inch, not from Berkeley, not from San Antonio, not from Boston. Not to the secessionists, not to sharia, not to Mexico, not to the ocean.

NOT. ONE. INCH.

/though there's probably not much I can do about the ocean

625 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:07:05pm

re: #365 reine.de.tout

Why would I, as a parent, send my child to school for 7 hours a day to have her time wasted by junk teaching?

I don't want the teacher teaching vague concepts of math and "leaving it up to her" to decide which ones she might need when she grows up and which ones she won't need.

I don't want a teacher exposing my child to junk reading material and the classics, and leaving it up to her to decide which one is worth pursuing and reflecting on, and which one isn't. I know exactly which ones my kid would choose, and that's whatever is easiest right now.

And I certainly don't want the teacher exposing my child to somebody else's faith beliefs in science class, when I can perfectly well send my child to classes about our own religion, taught by people who have studied it in depth and can answer whatever questions she has.

It has been a long time, but I would have used one different rule, and that is where to put punctuation in quotes and parentheses. If the punctuation is part of the phrase in the quotes, I put it there; if not, I put it outside. Richard Mitchell, while preferring the regular rule, does agree the way I do it is logical, and accepts it.

626 joecitizen  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:07:31pm

re: #614 albusteve

speak for yourself....if you choose to be a butthead so be it...no one will stop you...you judge others but dont like it when you yourself are judged....take your own advice....and calling people names does not become you....


I only speak for myself..and so does sharmuta..your gallant knight act grows tiresome..

627 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:07:32pm
628 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #605 Iron Fist

That's is really a shame. I really liked Romney as Governor of MA.

629 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:14pm

re: #595 Charles

I may have to start liveblogging Huckabee's musical attempts.

Someone should tell him the bass has four strings and he has four fingers. Multiply that by 16 frets and the possibilities are immense.

630 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:18pm

re: #621 Thanos

So you don't have a clue who Rushdoony is?

Ahhh no. Can you tell me?

631 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:22pm

re: #596 MandyManners

I'm waiting for the Japanese beauty queens to start wearing the modern, updated version of the classic Japanese garb: Fundoshi !

632 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:28pm

re: #530 Dave the.....

I like what Norquist said....something to the affect that there are limited gov't business types, limited gov't social conservatives, limited gov't personal freedom types, etc.

If there are 10 small gov't due to business issues, and 10 due to social conservative, instead of trying to kick out the 10 social conservatives, you should find 5 more financial conservatives to join. Then you have 25 on your side instead of 10.

* * * *
Politics is about growing your numbers, not dividing them!

[Expert community organizers & their acolytes outsmarted us]

We need to be additive about our core, important, absolutely unique American principles of democracy.

633 MandyManners  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:39pm

Clinton Kelly is such a snarky bitch.

634 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:08:44pm

re: #620 USBeast

I'm thankful he's found a gig that has no influence on actual policy.

This gig's intended to position him for 2012...

635 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:10:26pm

re: #345 mockery jones

yes, i have taught them many different creation stories. some traditional, some fantastic, and they sit through watching all sorts of science shows (including the universe, the complete cosmos, in short the whole discovery channel/ national geographic family of physics ans space shows) . the most important thing i teach them is to to think about these stories for themselves, and to ask themselves which of these make sense, and why. that's why i don't care if they are exposed to creationism in school is because i know i have done my job in teaching them to think for themselves, to ask questions when things don't make sense. that's the job of the parents. to teach the kids to think for themselves. if you have done your job as a parent in that area then nothing they can teach in school should hold any alarm for you.

I sure hope you're teaching them Aristotelian logic, Occam's Razor, and the empirical verification and falsification principles, because otherwise they might decide that they prefer astrology, alchemy and flat earth geocentrism better than astronomy, chemistry, and spherical earth heliocentrism. And have no idea why they shouldn't.

636 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:11:19pm

re: #634 Charles

This gig's intended to position him for 2012...

Yeah, right. Not a chance. No way in Hell. I know him better than you do. He's feathering his nest and making sure his children will never starve.

637 Sunlight  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:12:04pm

re: #627 Iron Fist

Oh, he really believes it. I think it is all the people that the Christians have beheaded that makes him think that way. And the stonings. And the Honor Killings. And that whole thing about throwing gays off of buildings.

You know, all those ways that the Christians are(were in past history) just like the Taliban., which is why many are concerned about the bad potential of the supremacist Euros maybe more than the taliban.

Just one possibility.

638 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:12:06pm

re: #630 BBev

Rushdoony like North is a Christian Dominionist, and doesn't like certain parts of the constitution, like article six because of this part:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

But then if you've been reading Sharm's posts as you profess to have done, then you should know that a small minority of the Christian faith really does want to anull certain parts of the constitution, that some of their adherents and supporters once said that gays should be stoned, just like the Taliban does.

639 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:14:02pm

re: #555 Cathypop

Why don't liberals want to ban panda farts?

* * *
Have you ever seen a liberal tell a communist what to do & enforce it, when they can harass America first?

640 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:14:28pm

re: #567 USBeast

Hiya Beast!

641 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:15:19pm

re: #630 BBev

Ahhh no. Can you tell me?

You would also know that Howard Ahmanson, one of Discovery Institute's big sugar daddies, is tightly tied to Rushdoony, Dominionism, and some Republican candidates. That's of course if you'd really been reading some of Sharm's posts as you professed to have done upthread. I think the word was "following"?

642 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:15:32pm

re: #625 Kosh's Shadow

It has been a long time, but I would have used one different rule, and that is where to put punctuation in quotes and parentheses. If the punctuation is part of the phrase in the quotes, I put it there; if not, I put it outside. Richard Mitchell, while preferring the regular rule, does agree the way I do it is logical, and accepts it.

It makes sense to me to do it the way you describe, and in fact, I can't tell you how often my boss would "edit" things I wrote to remove the punctuation from quotes when I thought it logically belonged there.

I also have continued to use a comma in certain situations before "and", where today's rules say to leave out the comma.

643 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:15:39pm

re: #638 Thanos

Rushdoony like North is a Christian Dominionist, and doesn't like certain parts of the constitution, like article six because of this part:

But then if you've been reading Sharm's posts as you profess to have done, then you should know that a small minority of the Christian faith really does want to anull certain parts of the constitution, that some of their adherents and supporters once said that gays should be stoned, just like the Taliban does.

Please, there are huts everywhere and in all parts of society. If it were true that the Christians wanted to take over the country it would have been done 200 years ago.

644 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:15:39pm

re: #552 Sheepdogess

I'll bet the O doesn't get a dog.

* * *
That would be the honest & fairest thing to do. Save a dog's life.

645 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:15:58pm

re: #640 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiya Beast!

Hey, Bastard! How they hangin'?

646 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:16:19pm

pimf/ nuts

647 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:16:24pm

re: #611 Sheepdogess

re: #582 Salamantis

And I respectfully agree.

648 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:17:04pm

re: #645 USBeast

Hangin' on! Going upstairs tho.

649 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:17:20pm

re: #408 Slumbering Behemoth

Can He create a burrito so big that even He can't eat it?

/I believe that comes from the great philosopher Homer (Simpson)

Homer's best quote on God:

Pagan Islander: If God all-powerful, why him care if us worship him or not?
Homer: Well you see, Onk, the thing is that God is all-powerful, yet insecure -- kinda like Barbra Streisand before James Brolin came along.

650 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:17:29pm

re: #643 BBev

Please, there are huts everywhere and in all parts of society. If it were true that the Christians wanted to take over the country it would have been done 200 years ago.

Nobody has ever said "Christians" in the sense of "all Christians". I think your sense of umbrage is unjust

651 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:18:41pm
652 USBeast  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:19:00pm

re: #648 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hangin' on! Going upstairs tho.

Happens to the best of us.

653 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:19:48pm

re: #646 BBev

pimf/ nuts

I thought you were going for "Hutts," as in Jabba.

654 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:22:35pm

The devil of it is that the creationists have a technical point buried in there somewhere. Life doesn't move DNA around purely and exclusively by passing it in gametes to descendants. Bacteria swap genetic material with previously unrelated species, and even in humans, there are some sequences that encode bits and pieces of old viruses we've had to contend with. It's sort of like recognition cards for enemy aircraft. These bits and pieces didn't evolve from other human genes; they were incorporated somehow into our own genome, captured from the virus. This sort of thing goes on all over the place. Not every single last bit of our genetic material comes from our parents. Once in a while, something slips in sideways.

The main picture of evolution stands as firmly as ever, but the creationists are setting things up for a gotcha moment if some not-up-to-date spokesman insists on the literal exact truth of the generally accepted, in the main correct, old doctrine.

With this more complex picture of life at the microbial level, it almost doesn't make sense to speak of the tree of life. The tangle of roots at the bottom is not a tree, it's a tangle. The tree-like aspects show up better, but still not with mathematical purity, when we look at multicellular life forms.

655 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:22:41pm

re: #653 Throbert McGee

I thought you were going for "Hutts," as in Jabba.

No, Jabba was a hedonist, not a dominionist.

656 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:23:13pm

It must at this point be a worry to even the most hardened AGW skeptic who has witnessed the stance and tactics of the creationists, that they find themselves dismissing the opinion of the climate science community as either a bunch of idiots, or members of a worldwide conspiracy to defeat the truth in favour of some underhand agenda.

657 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:23:37pm

re: #616 Basho

658 alegrias  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:24:13pm

re: #627 Iron Fist

Oh, he really believes it. I think it is all the people that the Christians have beheaded that makes him think that way. And the stonings. And the Honor Killings. And that whole thing about throwing gays off of buildings.

You know, all those ways that the Christians are just like the Taliban.

* * *
Iron Fist--you're right.
I've forgotten all the science of personal jihad I'm sure my pastor must have covered during confirmation classes! (sarc)

(Aren't you glad the ACLU is finally cracking down on taxpayer-financed public madrassahs in Minnesota?)

659 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:24:23pm

re: #643 BBev

Dangerous nuts with dangerous agendas should never be ignored, no matter how marginal you may think them to be.

660 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:25:32pm

re: #637 Sunlight

Just one possibility.


I also fear that the Pope will once again gather a military army, with which to subjugate all the known world, and that the Buddhists will again bring forth their conquering generals. The Mormons may once more hire gunslingers,and the Dervish practice their deadly art. Salem could renew burning witches, and the Mongols (who were said to worship ("the one"!) cast aside the new religion and rouse the hordes.

Dogs and cats living together...

661 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:26:15pm

re: #582 Salamantis

That action would be a farewell to constitutional democracy and a welcome to theocracy. America would cease to exist, because America is an idea, and such a move would murder that idea.

Indeed - what these people are proposing is deeply anti-American.

662 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:27:22pm

re: #565 Miss Trixie

:D

663 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:27:33pm

Well I See that my Karma has taken a huge hit tonight for standing up to a bunch of atheists not that I have a problem with that but the fact that I even say anything in the defense of religion at all and the opposition I receive tells me a lot about society today

664 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:28:03pm

re: #656 Jimmah

Are you inferring that the Heartland Institute is cut from the same cloth as the Discovery Institute?!?!

/say it ain't so....

665 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:29:01pm

re: #534 mockery jones

and meant to be.

considering the level of vehemence i'm getting for just stating that i really don't care if my children are taught creationism in school and that I believe it important for kids to at least know the creation stories are you really shocked i'm going to resort to every trick in the book. including a abject concession that has apparently been rejected

Your kids aren't the only ones who attend public school. Sectarian religious ideologues should not be allowed to forcefeed their pet dogmas down other peoples' children there, pretending that they're empirical facts.

666 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:29:12pm
667 mockery jones  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:29:28pm

re: #635 Salamantis

they are a little too young for a formal understanding of falsification principles, instances they can grasp, but the interface as a whole, probably not yet. however i do use the socratic method as a means for helping them to come to use the methods those principles embody, even if they don't understand the formal logic of it.

668 Catttt  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:31:40pm

Nine Inch Nails - The Collector (interesting meter on this)

Youtube Video
669 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:34:37pm

re: #663 BBev

Well I See that my Karma has taken a huge hit tonight for standing up to a bunch of atheists not that I have a problem with that but the fact that I even say anything in the defense of religion at all and the opposition I receive tells me a lot about society today

Well, I haven't down dung ya! I have disagreed with you, and got no response. I have watched you get 'ticked off' but then you didn't state your positions. I guess we all have bad nights. So I wish you Better Karma tomorrow!
No I am not an atheist!

670 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:37:12pm

re: #611 Sheepdogess

I respectfully disagree.

With which particular, and why?

671 abolitionist  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:37:46pm

re: #30 Charles

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a false connection. Creationism is a huge problem for conservatives and Republicans. Discovery Institute spokesmen are regularly published in the National Review, for example. Many top Republican politicians are creationists, but almost no Democrats. (I can't name one.)

Ann Coulter?

Cybercast News Service: Most people consider evolution to be a branch of science, or at least a scientific theory, yet in “Godless,” you refer to it as a “cult” and a “fetish.” What is your basis for calling it that?

Ann Coulter: There is no evidence that it is true. The fossil record contradicts it, and it is a theory that cannot be disproved. Whatever happens is said to “prove” evolution. This is the very definition of a pseudoscience, like astrology. (Of course, I would say that. I’m just a Capricorn, aren’t I?)

Cybercast News Service: Creationism is not considered a science because it can’t be observed or empirically tested. You assert in your book that the theory of evolution has the same problems. Why then has the U.S. public school system been willing to accept the theory of evolution, but snubbed creationism?

Ann Coulter: Because evolution is the official state religion. Although it is possible to believe in God and evolution, it is not possible to not believe in God without believing in evolution — otherwise, atheists have no explanation for why we are here. Thus, it’s very important for the liberal clergy to force small school children to believe in a discredited mystery religion from the 19th century — evolution — in order to prepare them to believe in the nonexistence of God, one of the main goals of the American public education system.

[Link: breathoffreshink.com...]

I don't agree with her on this, btw.

672 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:37:56pm

re: #669 Haverwilde

Well, I haven't down dung ya! I have disagreed with you, and got no response. I have watched you get 'ticked off' but then you didn't state your positions. I guess we all have bad nights. So I wish you Better Karma tomorrow!
No I am not an atheist!

I guess I have been around so long that I know people from what they have posted in the past and they do also. To go back and find there posts etc. is more then I care to do. I don't get pissed off to often and tonight I was not. But thank you.

673 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:39:08pm

The dominionists are a small nutball group, but they have undue sway for two reasons:
1. Millions and millions of dollars from people like Howard Ahmanson and some other dominionist family foundations.
2. Their extremism can be used by the left to tar conservative and religious republicans by the left if there's the faintest association. Don't believe me? google "Sarah Palin" dominionism. To any person who researches candidates it's not going to stick, but most of America doesn't research candidates, they get a "general sense" a few days before voting.

674 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:39:26pm

re: #663 BBev

Well I See that my Karma has taken a huge hit tonight for standing up to a bunch of atheists

If you're lumping me in that, I'm not an atheist.

not that I have a problem with

I think you do, otherwise why mention it?

that but the fact that I even say anything in the defense of religion at all and the opposition I receive tells me a lot about society today

This is "what the hell" I was talking about when I mentioned persecution fantasies. There is no opposition to religion here. There is opposition to pseudo-science and encroachment upon the First Amendment.

675 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:39:41pm

re: #618 BBev

You have got to be kidding me, you really believe that?

Yep. And the idea that is America is a great, grand and glorious one, embodied in the Constitution and its amendments, especially including the Bill of Rights. That idea could not survive a theocracy.

676 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:40:06pm

re: #664 freetoken

Are you inferring that the Heartland Institute is cut from the same cloth as the Discovery Institute?!?!

/say it ain't so....

I see they have a record of sticking it to the 'smoking alarmists' as well. Their committment to scientific truth is clearly unimpeachable.
/

677 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:40:24pm

re: #553 solomonpanting

Does that explain the evolution of the bikini from one piece to two?

The bikini started out as being two pieces, back in the Copper Age, and evolved variants such as the topless monokini.

678 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:44:43pm

You have to give the creationists credit for constantly inventing new approaches to the problem of how to trick people into believing nonsense.

679 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:45:36pm

re: #571 Racer X

Now that is Intelligent Design!

That led to the Burkini!

680 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:45:50pm

re: #671 abolitionist

Another reason to dislike this shrill poseur.

681 BBev  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:46:01pm

re: #674 Sharmuta

This is "what the hell" I was talking about when I mentioned persecution fantasies. There is no opposition to religion here. There is opposition to pseudo-science and encroachment upon the First Amendment.

You keep telling yourself that and it might come true but this is not my blog and I will not disrespect Charles. You all have a good night

682 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:46:28pm

re: #671 abolitionist

Ann Coulter!

I enjoy the heck out of listening to her, and 'ah hem' watching her.

Unfortunately too often, she just goes off into that 'religious right' no-rational-sense. Yes, it would cost her a lot in book sales if she had a more rational point of view, but it would make her a much stronger advocate of conservative causes. Now she is too easily dismissed.

683 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:47:25pm

re: #659 Slumbering Behemoth

Dangerous nuts with dangerous agendas should never be ignored, no matter how marginal you may think them to be.

It strikes me that dangerous nuts with a dangerous agenda, who decided to mainstream themselves and work their way into our institutions, were like scoffed and disregarded back in the day as well. Look where ignoring them got us.

684 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:47:40pm

re: #678 Charles

Madison Avenue and the old Politburo could have learned things from them. They are truly Machiavellian.

685 abolitionist  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:47:45pm

re: #671 abolitionist

Sheesh. I need more sleep.

686 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:47:58pm

re: #674 Sharmuta

This is "what the hell" I was talking about when I mentioned persecution fantasies. There is no opposition to religion here. There is opposition to pseudo-science and encroachment upon the First Amendment.

Logic and facts don't matter when one wants to feel persecuted.

687 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:48:08pm

re: #616 Basho

688 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:48:58pm

re: #140 mockery jones

You got your dings there, but in one read of what you say, you could be suggesting that Creationism not be taught, but used as an example of primitive and superstitious thinking, succeeded by modern science.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you must realize that that approach would never fly.

689 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:50:09pm

Why can't I post?

690 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:50:46pm

re: #687 Sheepdogess

It looks like your html tags are messed up. If any administrator is around and can fix it please do.

691 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:51:42pm

Basho...

America isn't a Christian nation now; we're a secular nation whose citizens are majority Christian. Bit the Reconstructionists and Dominionists wanna morph us into a Christian nation by tossing out the US Constitution and installing the Bible in its place. Kinda like a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

That action would be a farewell to constitutional democracy and a welcome to theocracy. America would cease to exist, because America is an idea, and such a move would murder that idea.

I^^^^^^^^ everything said above. If America becomes a truly secular nation,
WE
ARE
DEAD.
I think I'll go hug my dawg

692 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:51:47pm

re: #681 BBev

Your response is more revealing than you probably realize.

693 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:53:30pm

re: #627 Iron Fist

Oh, he really believes it. I think it is all the people that the Christians have beheaded that makes him think that way. And the stonings. And the Honor Killings. And that whole thing about throwing gays off of buildings.

You know, all those ways that the Christians are just like the Taliban.

Before Christianity was domesticated into tolerance by its confrontation with modernity in the form of the Reformation and the Renaissance, it behaved much as Islam behaves now (since their societies lagged behind Europe's, their own confrontation is barely underway). There were Inquisitions, and tortures, and hangings, and drownings, and burnings (including for the advancement of science - see Giordano Bruno), and coerced conversions and recantations (once again for scientific advancements - see Galileo), and the infant baptism of Central and South American babies who were immediately slaughtered, usually by grasping them by their feet and swinging their heads into stone walls, so their souls would travel to Heaven rather than being damned by growing up in their native parents' heathen ways.

And there are a small but determined minority of Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists who wish to return us to that time - and they fervently suopport the creationist agenda, as a means to their end. They hope that if they can get enough children indoctrinated into the idea of the supremacy of Biblicism over science and constitutional democracy, that they will perhaps grow up to vote out the constitutionally guaranteed popular vote as unBiblical, and vote in theocratic clericism.

694 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:56:52pm

re: #663 BBev

Well I See that my Karma has taken a huge hit tonight for standing up to a bunch of atheists not that I have a problem with that but the fact that I even say anything in the defense of religion at all and the opposition I receive tells me a lot about society today

Most of those you are "standing up" to are not atheists as far as I know.

I am, but I haven't found anything interesting from you worth responding to tonight. I guess you call that standing up to something.

695 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:57:31pm

re: #663 BBev

Well I See that my Karma has taken a huge hit tonight for standing up to a bunch of atheists not that I have a problem with that but the fact that I even say anything in the defense of religion at all and the opposition I receive tells me a lot about society today

If to your views and perceptions are that a majority of the people here are atheists, myself included, then facts and logic to the contrary will mean nothing to you.

Your protestations that getting negative karma tonight are not a problem with you is on the face of it patently false. If you really didn't care you would not mention getting karma, negative or positive.

I get dinged up, I get dinged down, and I get ignored, yet I don't mention it when it happens. I am supremely indifferent to the whole concept. It certainly has no bearing on what I say.

696 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:59:16pm

re: #693 Salamantis
I won't argue with you over the comment, because you are probably right about a few people. But the vast majority of currently so inclined folks are following the path set out by the religious Paternalistic leadership. Even intellingent folks fall prey to that leadership. And from what I have seen those religious leaders are usually not terribly bright, and don't 'think theologically' they just subscribe to a clearly defined dogma, which makes llfe and answers easy.

697 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:00:28pm

:sigh:

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that America is a secular* nation, and was founded as such?

Sure, each and every citizen in America has the right to believe or not believe in whatever faith they wish, but America is a secular* nation and always has been, just as the framers of the constitution intended.

*not overtly or specifically religious

698 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:01:41pm

re: #663 BBev

Well I See that my Karma has taken a huge hit tonight for standing up to a bunch of atheists not that I have a problem with that but the fact that I even say anything in the defense of religion at all and the opposition I receive tells me a lot about society today

Another recommendation to be found in the Disco Institute's Wedge Strategy document; try to morph every discussion about the presence of empirical evidence for scientific theories vs. the absence of empirical evidence for religious dogmas into Bad Old Atheists vs. Good Old God.

Bonus points to be awarded if you call your interlocuters nazis, commies, and moral relativists as well.

699 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:01:47pm

re: #694 Naso Tang

Most of those you are "standing up" to are not atheists as far as I know.

I am, but I haven't found anything interesting from you worth responding to tonight. I guess you call that standing up to something.

We seem to have had a couple of people wanting to pick fights in here tonight for some reason. Is it a full moon, or what?

700 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:03:16pm

re: #699 FurryOldGuyJeans

We seem to have had a couple of people wanting to pick fights in here tonight for some reason. Is it a full moon, or what?

No, but it is an Obama moon!

701 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:03:24pm

re: #697 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh:

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that America is a secular* nation, and was founded as such?

Sure, each and every citizen in America has the right to believe or not believe in whatever faith they wish, but America is a secular* nation and always has been, just as the framers of the constitution intended.

*not overtly or specifically religious

Because the same folks pushing the creationists agenda have done their work well in that people now mistake "secular" for "atheist" when that's not what it means at all. Of course- the rabid leftist atheists who go overboard are make themselves perfect targets to be used by these folks. And vice versa, I might add.

702 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:05:03pm

re: #697 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh:

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that America is a secular* nation, and was founded as such?

Sure, each and every citizen in America has the right to believe or not believe in whatever faith they wish, but America is a secular* nation and always has been, just as the framers of the constitution intended.

*not overtly or specifically religious

Because little of the history of the founding of America is taught any more in the home or in public schools, so they get their education in other venues, such as church or synagogue or universities. And that tends to color the perceptions.

703 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:05:08pm

re: #701 Sharmuta

*sigh* I need to slow down, and proof my comments. Excuse the typo, please.

704 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:05:32pm

re: #700 Haverwilde

definition of an Obama Moon: one hidden, and not revealing of its real intentions. (Usually irritates thinking humans.)

705 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:05:58pm

re: #700 Haverwilde

No, but it is an Obama moon!

Oh, you are so correct! My bad! ;)

706 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:06:37pm

re: #699 FurryOldGuyJeans

We seem to have had a couple of people wanting to pick fights in here tonight for some reason. Is it a full moon, or what?

*shrug* I found Bbev's comment stupid and insulting. I chose to say so. Call it a fight if you wish.

707 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:07:03pm

re: #703 Sharmuta

*sigh* I need to slow down, and proof my comments. Excuse the typo, please.

Even with the typos you make, most of the time, better sense than I do. ;)

708 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:08:03pm

re: #706 Naso Tang

*shrug* I found Bbev's comment stupid and insulting. I chose to say so. Call it a fight if you wish.

I was not referring to you, NT. :)

That is all I'm saying on the subject, ok? ;)

709 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:09:26pm

re: #698 Salamantis

Bonus points to be awarded if you call your interlocuters nazis, commies, and moral relativists as well.

Aw Sal, you left out "secularists". How could you?
/

710 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:09:35pm

re: #708 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh. I've probably skipped too many prior posts. Had company here. Thanks.

711 Basho  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:10:01pm

re: #703 Sharmuta

*sigh* I need to slow down, and proof my comments. Excuse the typo, please.

No prob. I was about to write pretty much the same thing with about two dozen more typos and very poor sentence structure. Glad you beat me to it.

712 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:10:30pm

re: #663 BBev

for standing up to a bunch of atheists

Outrageous! Such heroics - and in the face of such lesser beings as - atheists* - eek! You should have got a medal, surely/

*as has already been pointed out you're wrong on that anyway.

713 Haverwilde  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:10:49pm

Well Good night all! Another interesting evening.

714 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:12:03pm

re: #701 Sharmuta

Indeed. A match made in hell. May they spend eternity together.

715 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:17:19pm

re: #701 Sharmuta

Because the same folks pushing the creationists agenda have done their work well in that people now mistake "secular" for "atheist" when that's not what it means at all. Of course- the rabid leftist atheists who go overboard are make themselves perfect targets to be used by these folks. And vice versa, I might add.

And the worst offender in that regard is O'Reilly who, I'm guessing, coined the term "SP" for anyone that can be blamed for anything.

SP of course being Secular Progressive, which is an oxymoron given that we are a secular nation with a secular constitution, and Progressive means good things in every context I can think of.

Weird; and O'Reilly is not stupid. Could it be crass pandering to an audience which has never used those words in a sentence of their own?

716 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:17:33pm

Meanwhile I just fried up a batch of chocolate caramel coated bananas. mmmmmmmmmmmm

717 Sheepdogess  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:17:40pm

re: #703 Sharmuta

Typos OK with me. I can desypher almost anything in Inga Lish.
I am all for spending more time with content and less time with editing.

718 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:18:31pm

re: #715 Naso Tang

It's definite pandering, O'Reilly knows his demographic.

719 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:20:38pm

Sal - A couple of evolution threads back, I thought about putting up a salamander signal on youtube - like the bat-signal. It's good to see you back.

720 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:21:58pm

Got a long drive tomorrow to sunny Florida. Good night.

721 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:22:12pm

re: #716 Thanos

So indoctrinating our kids with your atheistic Darwinian lies isn't enough, now you have to torture bananas?! Where will it end? /////

722 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:22:57pm

re: #719 Jimmah

Sal - A couple of evolution threads back, I thought about putting up a salamander signal on youtube - like the bat-signal. It's good to see you back.

Thanxabunch, Jimmah; much appreciated. It's good to BE back. Even if on a dinky loaner while my puter awaits a backordered motherboard.

723 swamprat  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:24:46pm

I love this stuff, but I'm going upthread for a bit.

724 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:25:04pm

re: #721 Sharmuta

So indoctrinating our kids with your atheistic Darwinian lies isn't enough, now you have to torture bananas?! Where will it end? /////

I kind of makes sense that he'd be doing that given that bananas are the atheists nightmare.

725 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:27:23pm

re: #724 Jimmah

That looks like it might be ape food.
/

726 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:29:40pm

re: #701 Sharmuta

re: #702 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm guessing dictionaries became extinct around the same time as civics lessons.

Redefining language: not just for lefties anymore.

On a side note, why is it that the best "facepalm" pics on the web are of Picard? I'm not even a trekkie, but I have not been able to find a photo that captures the exasperation quite like his do.

727 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:31:03pm

re: #726 Slumbering Behemoth

On a side note, why is it that the best "facepalm" pics on the web are of Picard? I'm not even a trekkie, but I have not been able to find a photo that captures the exasperation quite like his do.

Because Troi was really annoying.

728 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:36:37pm

re: #722 Salamantis

Thanxabunch, Jimmah; much appreciated. It's good to BE back. Even if on a dinky loaner while my puter awaits a backordered motherboard.

Hope that gets sorted out ok. I had a little drama with some trojans on my system last week that were so sneaky they stopped me from visiting any sites that had the solution available to download. Had to resort to lizard power to get it fixed (thanks again Basho).

Off now to watch the Sopranos before bed. (Incidentally, in the last episode I watched, Tony Soprano and Christopher Moltosanto both heaped scorn on creationism. These people need to know who they're messing with;))

Night.

729 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:38:46pm

re: #722 Salamantis

It's good to see you back. I was beginning to worry that we might be stuck with an unacceptable number of insufficiently pissed-off creationist shills. Hope your new (back ordered) motherboard is inexpensive, but not cheap.

730 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:43:05pm

re: #724 Jimmah

I kind of makes sense that he'd be doing that given that bananas are the atheists nightmare.

I still can't figure out what that guy is advocating there; genesis literalism or a biblical mandate for fellatio?
/

731 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 8:08:56pm

re: #435 NptPrchr

There are already a lot of comments on this thread and it looks like many, if not most, of them actually address the issue and the story. At the risk of wasting my time, let me just say this:

I'm a preacher at a theologically conservative church which is largely made up of people who are culturally tolerant but personally conservative. I lean toward a libertarian view on issues such as drug legalization, etc., and I also seriously doubt that Darwinism/evolution explain life on this planet.

That being said, however, I also believe that Creationism, as a belief/doctrine, is a matter of faith and should therefore not be taught in public schools. I have no problem with science classes teaching evolution as the current/best scientific understanding of life in its varied forms on this planet.

Here's my question for Charles and the Lizardoids who are terribly exercised about this whole matter: Is the tent big enough for libertarian-leaning conservatives such as myself? Or, must I be purged from the Right side of the political spectrum?

Purged? We agree on the political dimensions of the issue. Why can't we work together in the political realm? Our disagreement about how much evolution can explain is moot. Speaking for myself, all I want is that the public schools shall teach science in science class. You and I can go our separate ways in what we teach our own children when it comes to matters of faith, and it won't bother me in the least if your way is not my way.

The history of Europe that was fresh in the minds of our founding fathers was that allowing questions of faith to drive politics, so that only adherents to the right branch of the one true faith could hold office---or maybe even hold onto their lives---had made an unholy mess of Europe and was a very, very bad idea. It's still a bad idea. Hence, we will compose our differences, put them aside, and work together amicably where possible, and agree to disagree, where not possible.

732 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 8:29:22pm

re: #272 rain of lead

Big Apple Circus in NYC over Christmas, now opening in Atlanta. Only one ring, but intimate and fun!

733 Scion9  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 8:33:32pm

re: #329 SpaceJesus

one day, future archaeologists will dig this website up and look through all the comments and realize how progressive and innovative my ideas were for this time in history. I will be considered the Socrates of the blogosphere.

I love this post. I haven't read the whole thread; but if no one has yet my Grecian friends and I would like to invite you out for a few rounds of hemlock. You know, to solidify your legacy for 'future archaeologists'.

734 mean Gene  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:31:13pm

How weird.
I always thought that Creationists loved the Big Bang theory.
It certainly made a closer fit to Genesis than the old belief in the ''Steady State'' theory that we were taught as one possibility when I was a youngster.
(I know, drive by post. I've had a super busy night and haven't even had time to peruse this thread.
Sorry if it's been dealt with above.)

735 freetoken  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:04:52pm

re: #734 mean Gene

How weird.
I always thought that Creationists loved the Big Bang theory.
It certainly made a closer fit to Genesis than the old belief in the ''Steady State'' theory that we were taught as one possibility when I was a youngster.

Not really a subject touched upon this time. Besides the same old arguments, parts of the discussion were upon not letting modernity get rolled back (by any means). Otherwise, just a smattering of this and that.

736 Mr Secul  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 1:22:36am

re: #140 mockery jones

Then the lesson becomes a piece of anti-genesis propaganda and we'd have the state attacking religion.

737 Mr Secul  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 2:26:02am

re: #588 Charles

One of the guitarists was flailing so hard he broke a string.

He wasn't a ninja was he?

738 Instablogger  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 6:23:49am

It never ends… 50 years ago, my high school had a mandatory class on Biblical Literature. The prospectus described it as an examination of the historical origin of the Bible and it’s sources.

On the first day of the class, the teacher opened the Bible and began reading, “In the Beginning…”. And so it went, every day until we reached the end in the book of Revelations. No discussion was allowed, no questions could be asked, just sitting there while she read to the class for the whole semester.

No one thought of objecting back then… we just tuned out and thought of other things for 45 minutes every day. While knowledge of the Bible is important for all the philosophical, literary references and quotes, this experience only planted the seeds of my Atheism.

Now I see that this ‘Religious Force Feeding’ is still alive and well in the Texas school system.

739 Lynn B.  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 7:59:23am

re: #738 Instablogger

Interesting. So this may not be as innocuous as it seems. Especially since the inclusion of specific teaching guidelines was shot down by the creationists on the board.

Texas board OKs elective Bible classes in high schools
Posted 7/18/2008
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — The Texas State Board of Education gave final approval Friday to establishing Bible classes in public high schools, rejecting calls to draw specific teaching guidelines and warnings that it could lead to constitutional problems in the classroom.

The Legislature passed a law in 2007 allowing Bible courses to be offered as an elective. They are supposed to focus on the history and literature of the Bible without preaching or disparaging any faith.

State officials are still waiting for an attorney general's ruling on whether high schools must offer the elective to students or can decide themselves whether to offer the class.

Critics say the rule adopted 10-5 by the board doesn't provide specific enough guidelines to help teachers and school districts know how to do that and avoid a First Amendment clash over freedom of religion.

"This is what happens when our elected officials put politics and personal agendas ahead of the interests of our school children and their families," said Ryan Valentine, deputy director Texas Freedom Network, which monitors the influence of religion in public policy.

740 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 8:26:20am

re: #322 Syrah

So lets consider a metaphysical question for the fun of it.

Can God create something that is old?

Well- Jesus said that with God all things are possible. So I suppose it is possible for God to create something new with the appearance of age, though it certainly stands definitions on their heads.

However, I find it interesting that Biblical literalists don't consider this comment of Jesus' to include the possibility of a very long creation and the use of evolution to be within God's ability. Nor is it within God's ability to use metaphors to describe the creation. With God all things are possible (except evolution) is what they'd have us believe.

741 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 8:39:11am

re: #495 Thanos

I voted for Bush and I'm not a neocon, I voted for Nixon and and I'm not a Paleocon, I campaigned for Young and I'm not a paleo libertarian. So what should I be, an Empiricon?

I'm an Americon.

742 gman  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 8:53:31am

re: #459 joecitizen

Sharmuta, you are obviously a valued cog in the LGF wheel but sometimes you are ridiculous..this is one of those times...

cog? Who's the ridiculous one here using a tired collectivist metaphor?
Shar's the real deal. She has her own opinions, backs them up, and then some.

743 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 8:55:19am

Killgore:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

744 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 9:09:18am

re: #627 Iron Fist

Fist- I have a lot of respect for you, so I wanted to respond to this because you're both right and wrong. Most Christians don't engage in those sorts of things. But you're wrong if you think there aren't any. Thanos mentioned Rushdoony and from that link, if you scroll down, you can read the sorts of things this type of Christian is interested in foisting upon this nation- Christian Reconstruction:

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

So- when one reads stuff like this, it's natural, imo, to have the Taliban come to mind. I'm pretty sure Sala, Thanos, and others including myself are aware this goes against the beliefs of most Christians.

745 Sharmuta  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 9:18:05am

{gman} Thank you for those kind words.

746 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 2:01:16pm

re: #462 Salamantis

The motives of the Discovery Institute in whatever they are doing are as relevant as the plans and motives of the Communists in supporting the election of Barak Obama. So, in your mind then, are all the people who voted for Obama communists?

Your points are called arguments from ignorance: we can’t think of any plausible mechanism in any other extraterrestrial environment, so we cling to an implausible theory that requires random mutations to generate incredibly complex self-generating, self-replicating organic robots with an amazing chemical feedback loops and cycles in a few short billion years, the most fundamental of which is the anabolic ADP-ATP cycle.

Other arguments from ignorance include, for example, the concepts of “vestigial” organs and of “junk” DNA. Talk about kicking the can down the road!

Of course there are alternatives. Ascribing random mutation as the source of significant change DNA, proteins, and human brains is pathetically inadequate. I’m beginning to believe more and more in terms of wholesale transfer of sections of DNA between very different organisms, including the ERVs that you like to brandish . . . here are some links that have some interesting clues in my opinion:

[Link: dsc.discovery.com...]
[Link: dsc.discovery.com...]

Academic freedom requires complete independence from political and religious indoctrination in classrooms, but I do not accept that considering the possibility of intelligent design impinges on that neutrality. Science is focused on discovering the mechanisms of the universe, whatever they might be. It’s purpose is not to try to prove of disprove God—or Marx for that matter.

-sk

747 Spar Kling  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 2:06:33pm

re: #746 Spar Kling

It’s purpose is not to try to prove OR disprove God—or Marx for that matter. Sorry about the typos.

-sk

748 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 2:29:57pm

re: #746 Spar Kling

False.

749 BBev  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 3:59:46pm

re: #745 Sharmuta

I want to apologize for my attitude from last night, I'm sorry really!

I will post this again when I see you one line.

750 Salamantis  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 5:48:58pm

re: #746 Spar Kling

The motives of the Discovery Institute in whatever they are doing are as relevant as the plans and motives of the Communists in supporting the election of Barak Obama. So, in your mind then, are all the people who voted for Obama communists?

Flawed analogy. The Disco Institute shills invented the term ID in order to circumvent the Aguilar decision, which forbade the teaching of the religious dogma of creationism in public schools on church-state separation grounds. However, this attempted circumvention failed, in the Dover decision. I don't think the Commies cloned Obama.

Your points are called arguments from ignorance: we can’t think of any plausible mechanism in any other extraterrestrial environment, so we cling to an implausible theory that requires random mutations to generate incredibly complex self-generating, self-replicating organic robots with an amazing chemical feedback loops and cycles in a few short billion years, the most fundamental of which is the anabolic ADP-ATP cycle.

The hoary old 'irreducable complexity' canard rears its ugly old Michael Behe head again. But Ken Miller, among others, has conclusively demonstrated that none of the supposed examples of this that have been raised are actually irreducably complex. And for you to claim that the mechanisms of evolution are implausible only serves to abundantly demonstrate your own willful ignorance.

Other arguments from ignorance include, for example, the concepts of “vestigial” organs and of “junk” DNA. Talk about kicking the can down the road!

The examples of vestigal organs that have been proffered at LGF

[Link: listverse.com...]

are not arguments from ignorance, for we have amply discerned the functions that these vestigal organs formerly performed. And Artifactual retroviral DNA is far from 'junk'; since its origin is external to its host, it not only demonstrates evolutionary divergence from common ancestors, but also frequently immunizes its hosts from viral infections:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Of course there are alternatives. Ascribing random mutation as the source of significant change DNA, proteins, and human brains is pathetically inadequate. I’m beginning to believe more and more in terms of wholesale transfer of sections of DNA between very different organisms, including the ERVs that you like to brandish . . . here are some links that have some interesting clues in my opinion:

[Link: dsc.discovery.com...]
[Link: dsc.discovery.com...]

I 'brandish' artifactual retroviral DNA because it demonstrates my evolutionary point beyond rational statistical dispute. And I'll just bet that those genetic bits that your example animals share are themselves artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that infected their common ancestors, and got spliced into their genomes.

Academic freedom requires complete independence from political and religious indoctrination in classrooms, but I do not accept that considering the possibility of intelligent design impinges on that neutrality. Science is focused on discovering the mechanisms of the universe, whatever they might be. It’s purpose is not to try to prove or disprove God—or Marx for that matter.

-sk

Empirical science has to do with what can be empirically demonstrated, via investigation and experiementation, from which empirical evidence is derived. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for ID; it is a religious dogma wearing badly fitting linguistic camo.

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

751 Euler  Sun, Jan 25, 2009 6:40:19pm

The 18-th Century European Age of Enlightenment, not Christianity, inspired the Founding of the United States. Reason, not revealed truth, was seen as giving legitimacy to government. Classical liberalism (not to be confused with the current usage of “liberalism”) is rooted in the Enlightenment.

If there has ever been a civic ethos in this country approaching the religious, it is not Christianity, but the Neo-classicism of the Enlightenment. Take one look at the civic architecture of Washington. The Supreme Court is not a temple to the Christian god; it is the Parthenon, temple to Athena. The Washington Monument? An obelisk, which from Enlightenment times, was borrowed from ancient Egypt as a symbol of timelessness and great antiquity. Nothing in the least Christian about that.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 88 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 258 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1