When Scientists Debate Theology

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 6:30 pm PST • Views: 323

Yesterday I wrote, “I’d like to see Ken Miller and Karl Giberson respond to Coyne’s critique,” commenting on an article by Jerry Coyne that concludes there’s no way to reconcile science and religion, and harshly criticizes Miller and Giberson for suggesting otherwise.

Here are those responses, from Ken Miller and Karl Giberson.

The opening of Miller’s piece:

My colleague and friend Jerry Coyne is a brilliant scientist, an excellent writer, and a thoughtful, outspoken atheist. He believes that God does not exist, and that any reasonable person should think as he does, rejecting the elixir of faith as pointless delusion. In taking that position, even though it is one with which I disagree, he places himself in distinguished company, no question. If Dr. Coyne’s review of recent books by Karl Giberson and myself (Only a Theory, and Saving Darwin, respectively) sought only to make that argument, thereby to distance himself from a couple of deluded Christians, I wouldn’t have much to complain about. On the issue of faith, there’s plenty of distance between us, even if I think Coyne is on the wrong side of the question.

But Coyne did something quite different from that.

In addition to making the usual claims about the lack of evidence for God, Coyne flatly states that faith and science are not compatible, arguing that the empirical nature of science contradicts the revelatory nature of faith. What about the tens of thousands of scientists, now and in the past who were people of faith (including roughly 40% of all working scientists in the US, members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science)? Coyne waves them away with scorn, literally comparing them to “adulterers” who have subverted their vows to be true to science—or at least to Coyne’s view of science. More on that later.

Coyne claims that “theistic evolutionists” like me exhibit three of the four hallmarks of creationism, making me really no different from the folks I opposed at the Kitzmiller trial. He couldn’t be more wrong about that. I share exactly one thing in common with creationists, which is my belief in God. The other points of supposed agreement are figments of Coyne’s imagination—or of his overwrought efforts to slander any believer by placing them in the “creationist” camp.

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936 comments

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1 mean Gene  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:34:49pm

Nobody wants to even start here.
That tells more than anything anyone could say.

2 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:34:56pm

One thing you never see: scientists logging on to theology discussions pretending to be priests in a dastardly attempt to promote naturalism.

3 MAV  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:35:01pm

So where does the big O stand on this subject?

4 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:35:22pm

Lao Stinky rules!

5 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:35:58pm
"I share exactly one thing in common with creationists, which is my belief in God"


The money line.

6 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:36:08pm

re: #3 MAV

I'm pretty sure he's a theistic evolutionist. There really aren't that many Dem creationists.

7 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:36:14pm
8 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:39:14pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I don't think he's too bothered about the theistic part. :D

9 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:40:27pm

From Giberson...

There is a widespread fear on America's main streets that evolution is destroying a cherished belief in God. As a consequence, anti-evolution has assumed the proportions of a military-industrial complex but the battle is a proxy war, aimed not at evolution, but at materialism. I wonder what would happen if, in the name of pluralism and diplomacy, we could all agree that it was OK for people to believe that evolution was a part of God's plan. I suspect that cultural changes would be inaugurated that would eventually make both Eugenie Scott and Ken Ham irrelevant.

Nice.

10 mean Gene  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:40:36pm

I disagree, KT.
O touted his 4 years of Islamic education the other day.
He also pointed out all of his Muslim relatives.
Liberals and Muslim align in a lot of odd ways.
(Hence that undeniably weird Islamic/Leftist convergence)
And Muslims believe in a form of creationism and oppose the teaching of evolution.
How long before Leftists throw homosexuality AND evolution under the bus in their adulation of ''the 0ne?''

11 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:42:12pm

Jerry Coyne has a new book out:

Why Evolution Is True

Can't wait to read it!

12 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:42:34pm

You have to ask yourself..and this truth is self evident..
Who are you going to believe and follow in a modern world? Really?
Great scientists like Hawking and Einstein that try to explain the natural world by proof and solid scientific evidence..Or somebody that lived thousands of years ago that hadn't quite come up with the concept of toilette paper yet?
Go with whom you will...but if you believe the latter..please unplug your broadband Internet and rent a cave somewhere...

13 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:43:17pm

re: #8 Jimmah

I doubt it but most people aren't. People work, raise kids, pay bills, watch tv. For better or worse most people are busy living their lives and don't worry too much about religion. I don't see that as a bad thing. If anything I'd like to see people more interested in art, philosophy and poetry...but that's just me.

14 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:44:18pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

I doubt it but most people aren't. People work, raise kids, pay bills, watch tv. For better or worse most people are busy living their lives and don't worry too much about religion. I don't see that as a bad thing. If anything I'd like to see people more interested in art, philosophy and poetry...but that's just me.

Humanist, you :)

15 HelloDare  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:45:24pm

Religion is arational, not irrational. Let's leave it at that, shall we.

16 Gang of One  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:45:31pm

At the risk of invoking the ire of so many, I'll never understand how having faith in a Creator is tantamount to be anti-science, and being a scientist means one must reject a Creator. I just don't get it. But I', stupid, I guess -- I believe the they are not mutually exclusive.

/let the bashing begin ...

17 mean Gene  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:45:36pm

HH you expressed this as a dilemma but it is NOT a dilemma.
It is a false dilemma.
Even Charles admits that there are tons of crossovers.
Where did he (or was it Stinky?) write that?
That being that humans could easily believe in God and also in evolution.

18 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:45:43pm

I've read and promoted both "Saving Darwin" and "Only A Theory". Both are fantastic books, and I hope Lizards will check them out.

19 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:46:26pm

re: #16 Gang of One

At the risk of invoking the ire of so many, I'll never understand how having faith in a Creator is tantamount to be anti-science, and being a scientist means one must reject a Creator. I just don't get it. But I', stupid, I guess -- I believe the they are not mutually exclusive.

/let the bashing begin ...

Um- that's pretty much the position of the vast majority of Lizards, so why would we bash you?

20 HelloDare  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:46:32pm

re: #16 Gang of One

At the risk of invoking the ire of so many, I'll never understand how having faith in a Creator is tantamount to be anti-science, and being a scientist means one must reject a Creator. I just don't get it. But I', stupid, I guess -- I believe the they are not mutually exclusive.

/let the bashing begin ...

Here, you dropped this: m

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:46:42pm

re: #10 mean Gene
Obama's Science Team Big on Evolution

Barack Obama on teaching evolution

"It's not 'faith' if you are absolutely certain," Obama said, noting that he didn't believe his lack of "faith" would hurt him a national election. "Evolution is more grounded in my experience than angels."


Dems have the science thing all wrapped up. Republicans like candidates with goofy rural accents.

22 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:47:15pm

I don't see why science and a religious faith cannot be compatible. However those who reconcile the two invariable reject some of what their faith would require them to believe.

Science is never going to be able to prove there is no god. As funny as it was when Homer Simpson proves it to Flanders, such a thing could never be proven simply because science can never explain why we exist.

While I cannot bring myself to believe in any religious beliefs, I think it's arrogant to think that atheists can assert there is no god without a measure of faith itself in their belief.

23 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:47:29pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

ROFL

24 Gang of One  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:48:10pm

re: #20 HelloDare

Thanks, I guess I owe you one.

25 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:48:35pm

re: #16 Gang of One

At the risk of invoking the ire of so many, I'll never understand how having faith in a Creator is tantamount to be anti-science, and being a scientist means one must reject a Creator. I just don't get it. But I', stupid, I guess -- I believe the they are not mutually exclusive.

/let the bashing begin ...

As you well point out. There are scientist who will rant and are certainly anti-religionist. And the converse is true about some religionist.

But if you notice here on LGF, there is a good selection of folks that see both as compatible and there are atheist here who have not problems with those who want to combine the concepts.

26 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:49:41pm

This is a good comeback by Ken, and it was deserved. Coyne makes the same mistake many atheists do - extrapolating what they do know to explain things they can't possibly know yet in an effort to really bolster their own world view. I'm an atheist, my view is that God is possible, but the chances are slim. I am the first to admit that I don't know, and I'm comfortable with "I don't know for sure" since what we don't know so far outweighs what we do. It's hubristic and also weak-knead atheism to smack down religion when you can't possibly know anymore than those who are religious can possibly know for sure. It's a disavowal of the very empiricism Coyne admires.

27 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:50:12pm
In addition to making the usual claims about the lack of evidence for God,

Sorry, back up a step. Define "God".

(I pretty much hit a barrier right there... never mind talking about "evidence".)

28 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:50:19pm

re: #22 BryanS


While I cannot bring myself to believe in any religious beliefs, I think it's arrogant to think that atheists can assert there is no god without a measure of faith itself in their belief.

While god's existence cannot be prove or disproven, I think it's rather silly to say that not believing in god requires faith...

29 mean Gene  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:51:29pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Obama's Science Team Big on Evolution

Barack Obama on teaching evolution


Dems have the science thing all wrapped up. Republicans like candidates with goofy rural accents.

I think what Obama was describing is gullibility rather than faith when he said, "It's not 'faith' if you are absolutely certain."

30 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:52:20pm

The interesting thing about Giberson is he was first entering the field of science so he could follow in the footsteps of creation "scientists" like Henry Morris. What happened instead is he left the fundamentalist fold.

31 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:52:27pm

re: #28 Basho

While god's existence cannot be prove or disproven, I think it's rather silly to say that not believing in god requires faith...

Well, if believing something without concrete proof is not faith, then what is it?

32 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:53:43pm

re: #26 Thanos

weak-knead atheism

That's how I roll.

33 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:54:15pm

re: #31 BryanS

Well, if believing something without concrete proof is not faith, then what is it?

But they're not believing in something. To a real atheist the idea of there being a god requires as much thought as the idea that there may be a unicorn living on Pluto.

34 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:55:33pm

Posted this in another thread, but here's some interesting commentary regarding Miller's and Giberson's responses:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

35 MAV  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:55:39pm

Answering my own question...

Do you believe that evolution by means of natural selection is a sufficient explanation for the variety and complexity of life on Earth? Should intelligent design, or some derivative thereof, be taught in science class in public schools?
Obama: I believe in evolution, and I support the strong consensus of the scientific community that evolution is scientifically validated. I do not believe it is helpful to our students to cloud discussions of science with non-scientific theories like intelligent design that are not subject to experimental scrutiny

36 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:55:52pm

re: #31 BryanS

Well, if believing something without concrete proof is not faith, then what is it?

Do you believe in Vishnu?

If your answer is "no": Do you have proof of the non-existence of Vishnu?

37 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:56:09pm

re: #28 Basho

While god's existence cannot be prove or disproven, I think it's rather silly to say that not believing in god requires faith...

IMHO the real wording should be - it takes conviction... "I am convinced there is no god". Would be a more accurate statement describing the sentiments expressed by most of the atheist that I have known.

38 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:57:04pm

re: #33 Basho

At the risk of derailing the thread...
The Dragon In My Garage
by Carl Sagan

39 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:57:59pm

re: #37 slokat

That works.

40 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:59:04pm

Millers essay is spot on. Unfortunately too many fundamentalists take the approach of "if it doesn't agree with what the [insert religous text here], it's wrong". I grew up in such a household. Watching people twist logic into pretzels really made my head hurt. It's nice to see a scientist say that belief in a good is not about science. Or as Lao Stinky says "Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in god".

/think I got that quote right.

41 HelloDare  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:59:14pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout


Barack Obama on teaching evolution

"It's not 'faith' if you are absolutely certain," Obama said, noting that he didn't believe his lack of "faith" would hurt him a national election. "Evolution is more grounded in my experience than angels."

Angels have evolved. They fly much better than they used to and no longer smell like wet puppies.

42 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:59:41pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

At the risk of derailing the thread...
The Dragon In My Garage
by Carl Sagan

I will not buy that stinking "dragon" heresy. There is no god but Python.

43 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:59:50pm

re: #33 Basho

But they're not believing in something. To a real atheist the idea of there being a god requires as much thought as the idea that there may be a unicorn living on Pluto.

Sure they are--unless you are talking about someone who is not sure whether there is a god and therefore does not subscribe to a particular religion.

If someone has a firm belief that there is no god, that requires a faith in that belief. That seems to be the issue with the more combative atheists--they cannot see that their firm beliefs are a matter of faith even though in the same breath they admit they cannot prove their assertion.

44 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:00:41pm
45 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:01:28pm

re: #42 Occasional Reader

Interesting.

46 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:01:31pm

re: #43 BryanS

If someone has a firm belief that there is no god, that requires a faith in that belief.

Again: Vishnu? Yes? No? Proof?

How about Zeus?

47 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:03:45pm

re: #36 Occasional Reader

Do you believe in Vishnu?

If your answer is "no": Do you have proof of the non-existence of Vishnu?

No, and no. What point are you trying to make?

48 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:03:46pm

re: #43 BryanS

That seems to be the issue with the more combative atheists--they cannot see that their firm beliefs are a matter of faith even though in the same breath they admit they cannot prove their assertion.


There's a logical fallacy in proving a negative. That's why our legal system is set up for the prosecution to prove that the crime was committed rather than the defendant proving his innocence.

49 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:04:35pm

Looks like this evolution thread is devolving into an atheist thread anyways.

50 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:05:06pm

re: #47 BryanS

No, and no. What point are you trying to make?

Is your non-belief in every god (and other supernatural being) in which you don't believe an irrational act of faith?

Or is it; that the burden of proof lies on the one claiming the existence of Vishnu (or Zeus, or... etc. etc. etc.)

51 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:05:38pm

re: #47 BryanS

Negative proof

52 HelloDare  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:06:05pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

At the risk of derailing the thread...
The Dragon In My Garage
by Carl Sagan

That explains why my car always runs out of gas. The damn dragon drinks it to fuel the flames coming out of his mouth. It's so obvious now that you pointed it out.

53 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:06:08pm

Well it is interesting to see that there are rabid "rationalists" that have the same ability to dishonestly conflate their opponents into one big strawman and then attack on the basis of "inconsistency" and "heresy".

Ass holes of different stripes.

54 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:07:05pm
55 J.D.  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:07:10pm

I was always told it was impolite to discuss politics and religion.

I think it's OK, though, to talk about the weather.

56 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:07:39pm

re: #50 Occasional Reader

Is your non-belief in every god (and other supernatural being) in which you don't believe an irrational act of faith?

Or is it; that the burden of proof lies on the one claiming the existence of Vishnu (or Zeus, or... etc. etc. etc.)

I don't believe there is a god, but I do not have proof that there is no god. I think both the assertion that one's god is the true one, and the assertion that no god can exist require proof to not be considered an article of faith.

57 mean Gene  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:08:10pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Looks like this evolution thread is devolving into an atheist thread anyways.

I couldn't have said it better.
I'm out.
Proverbs 30: 7-9 points out that it is when we have plenty that we deny God. When we have too little we disgrace him.
We live in riches, even our poorest - with their cable TV and microwave ovens - look like kings to, say, Obama's brother in Kenya.

58 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:08:52pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Looks like this evolution thread is devolving into an atheist thread anyways.

Well, I could say, "there is no god but Python", and steer things toward a gun thread...

59 J.D.  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:09:10pm

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

Knock, knock!

Who's there?

Vishnu!

Vishnu who?

Vishnu vould open the door and let me in!

Egad!

That's bad!

60 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:10:18pm

re: #56 BryanS

I don't believe there is a god, but I do not have proof that there is no god. I think both the assertion that one's god is the true one, and the assertion that no god can exist require proof to not be considered an article of faith.

The question needs to be qualified by first answering the question 'what do you mean when you say God?' In other words, what are the characteristics you ascribe to the God you affirm or deny?

61 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:10:38pm

re: #54 buzzsawmonkey

Knock knock!

Who's there?

Thor!

Thor who?

Are you still Thor with me for not opening that damn door?

62 slartybartfast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:10:44pm

OT, I just received the results of a recent survey by my representative in Congress regarding the so-called "stimulus package". Here's the question and the results:

On Wednesday, [my representative] will vote on the $825 billion stimulus package. Supporters say the plan will create and save jobs and kick start our economy. Opponents say our nation can’t afford a $2 trillion deficit and that the ballooning debt will cripple our economy in the long run. Would you vote for the stimulus package as it stands now?

No 3438 (91.9%)

Yes 302 (8.1%)

63 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:10:46pm

I think, as an agnostic, that most folks are seekers. What in the hell does this all mean? Even the most dedicated have doubts. This is the human condition. This is the source of untold trauma over human history. It is folly to think that the greatest scientist or the greatest theologian will ever have the answer. There will never in this life be satisfaction. This is the human dilemma. Make the most of it.

/Me, I'm going fly fishing in beautiful places and kind of hope for the best.

64 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:10:46pm

From Miller's reply -

For someone so insistent on empirical evidence, Coyne is remarkably quick to invoke faith when it suits his purposes. Realizing that the anthropic principle could indeed be seen as friendly to religion, he knows he just doesn't have enough evidence to reject it.

I'm not getting how the anthropic principle could be religion friendly, unless it's been misunderstood. In a vast, possibly infinite cosmos there will be many environments, and on top of that physical theories increasingly involve the idea of many universes besides our own, with variations in the laws of physics which would provide many configurations, some of which would support life.

Of course, one could just opt for the supernatural 'explanation' and say god did it, but is that is just intelligent design rearing up it's head again in a different place. I think most of us realise that the history of science has always been a graveyard for that idea.

65 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:10:47pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Negative proof

Where did I raise the negative proof logical fallacy?

66 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:11:16pm

re: #58 Occasional Reader

Well, I could say, "there is no god but Python", and steer things toward a gun thread...

Or a ancient greek coin thread...

(what a wonderful piece of artwork)

Athenian Tetradrachm (new style circa 100 bce)
[Link: farm2.static.flickr.com...]

67 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:11:41pm

re: #56 BryanS

I don't believe there is a god, but I do not have proof that there is no god. I think both the assertion that one's god is the true one, and the assertion that no god can exist require proof to not be considered an article of faith.

Who was that famous athiest who was asked what he would do if and when he died and found out there was/is a God?

I've always loved the response:
"I'll just say I was wrong".

68 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:12:14pm

re: #56 BryanS

I think both the assertion that one's god is the true one, and the assertion that no god can exist require proof to not be considered an article of faith.

Substitute "Santa Claus" for "god". Does your observation work, as a matter of logic?

69 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:12:27pm

re: #60 Salamantis

The question needs to be qualified by first answering the question 'what do you mean when you say God?' In other words, what are the characteristics you ascribe to the God you affirm or deny?

I suppose by 'god', i mean the general belief that there is an intelligent being of sorts that controls the nature of our universe/existence.

70 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:13:06pm

re: #60 Salamantis

The question needs to be qualified by first answering the question 'what do you mean when you say God?' In other words, what are the characteristics you ascribe to the God you affirm or deny?

I already done tole 'em dat, but dey wasn't listenin'.

71 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:13:15pm

re: #63 The Shadow Do

I think, as an agnostic, that most folks are seekers. What in the hell does this all mean? Even the most dedicated have doubts. This is the human condition. This is the source of untold trauma over human history. It is folly to think that the greatest scientist or the greatest theologian will ever have the answer. There will never in this life be satisfaction. This is the human dilemma. Make the most of it.

/Me, I'm going fly fishing in beautiful places and kind of hope for the best.

IMHO God put the greatest survival tool of all in every person:

Healthy doubt.

72 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:13:20pm
Because if conditions in our universe are such that they make the emergence of intelligent life, sooner or later, pretty much a sure thing, then people might wonder why. And if they were to come to the conclusion this might mean that there was a Creator who intended that as part of his work, they would be guilty of the very thoughts that Coyne finds so outrageous that he wishes to banish them from the scientific establishment.

Well said by Miller. That what intelligent intelligent design sounds like.

73 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:13:21pm

re: #67 jwb7605

Who was that famous athiest who was asked what he would do if and when he died and found out there was/is a God?

I've always loved the response:
"I'll just say I was wrong".

Honest answer. More honest that some atheist and some religionist can offer.

74 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:13:45pm

Mr. Coyne is not doing science any favors in my eyes. While I'm still interested in reading his new book, he and Richard Dawkins play into the hands of creationists by giving them the very example they need to promote the notion that evolution is inherently atheistic. I can appreciate that in these men's minds, they are speaking what they feel is the truth, and they're entitled to do so. But again- they give their opponents the very target they need.

Attacking two other evolutionary defenders only helps the creationists we all are working against. There are very few scientists who have done more to help keep creationism out of our schools than Dr. Miller. That he would be attacked by someone on the same side of science is sad.

75 MAV  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:14:40pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Negative proof


[edit] Applying the fallacy
Suppose that there is a debate between two teams sometime in the past. Team 1 has the goal of showing that global warming is real. In this case, if Team 1 simply says to Team 2 that Team 2 has to prove them wrong or they win, then there is a logical fallacy.

The reason why Team 1 holds the burden of proof is because 'no global warming' holds truth prior to global warming as being fact. In other words, we did not have an idea of global warming until at least one person came up with the idea. The clean slate, or default position is therefore 'no global warming' until someone comes along to demonstrate that there is global warming. Today, the burden of proof would be on Team 2: all the data tells us that global warming is real[citation needed], therefore the new claim would be that global warming is not true. The default position shifts to global warming as being a fact.

Thus it is important to consider who has the proving to do. In the first case, Team 2 would not be committing a logical fallacy by saying that there is no reason or evidence for global warming.

Channeling Al Gore

76 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:14:48pm

re: #63 The Shadow Do

I think, as an agnostic, that most folks are seekers.

There's a seeker born every minute.

[hat tip: Firesign Theatre]

By the way, how do you define "agnostic" for your purposes?

77 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:15:14pm

re: #64 Jimmah

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

78 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:15:17pm

re: #68 Occasional Reader

Substitute "Santa Claus" for "god". Does your observation work, as a matter of logic?

Yes, actually it does. Except I can test/hypothesize about the existence of Santa Claus, so that's not really a good substitution or the point I think you're trying to make.

79 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:16:19pm

Some music: Mc Hawking - Big Bizang

80 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:17:17pm

re: #64 Jimmah

From Miller's reply -

I'm not getting how the anthropic principle could be religion friendly, unless it's been misunderstood. In a vast, possibly infinite cosmos there will be many environments, and on top of that physical theories increasingly involve the idea of many universes besides our own, with variations in the laws of physics which would provide many configurations, some of which would support life.

Of course, one could just opt for the supernatural 'explanation' and say god did it, but is that is just intelligent design rearing up it's head again in a different place. I think most of us realise that the history of science has always been a graveyard for that idea.

You should read Just Six Numbers. I don't think it's possible that another universe with a different set of physical laws would achieve life. These six numbers he discusses show that a tinkering in them would not allow a universe like ours to evolve to a point able to support life. Fascinating stuff.

81 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:17:34pm

re: #67 jwb7605

Who was that famous athiest who was asked what he would do if and when he died and found out there was/is a God?

I've always loved the response:
"I'll just say I was wrong".

The flip side would be that if a devout believer dies and there is no god, they will never know... there won't be any one/place/thing/event for an apology.

82 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:17:37pm

re: #74 Sharmuta

Mr. Coyne is not doing science any favors in my eyes. While I'm still interested in reading his new book, he and Richard Dawkins play into the hands of creationists by giving them the very example they need to promote the notion that evolution is inherently atheistic. I can appreciate that in these men's minds, they are speaking what they feel is the truth, and they're entitled to do so. But again- they give their opponents the very target they need.

Attacking two other evolutionary defenders only helps the creationists we all are working against. There are very few scientists who have done more to help keep creationism out of our schools than Dr. Miller. That he would be attacked by someone on the same side of science is sad.

Excellent points - and, when they brand those who are scientists who believe in God as "heretics" they adopt the tactics of creationists. They are forcing a false choice.

83 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:17:46pm

re: #69 BryanS

I suppose by 'god', i mean the general belief that there is an intelligent being of sorts that controls the nature of our universe/existence.

And did this being just set the universe in motion, so that the inexorable laws of cause and effect would result in the vast wheel and span of universal history, and the fine-grained chain of causation witnessed on Earth? Or does it dip its finger in now and then to magically and miraculously violate those universal laws? And if it was strong and smart enough to create the universe in the first place, why would it need to? And why would such a vast cosmic being be in the least bit concerned with a reproducing film of life on the surface of a small planet circling a nondescript star in one corner of one of millions of galaxies?

84 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:18:28pm

re: #76 Occasional Reader


By the way, how do you define "agnostic" for your purposes?

I think, like me, he defines agnostic as someone who goes out and examines all the evidence for the existence or nonexistence of something like a god and admits to his/herself "I don't know yet".

85 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:18:49pm

re: #28 Basho

While god's existence cannot be prove or disproven, I think it's rather silly to say that not believing in god requires faith...

Why silly? When someone says 'I don't believe in God' they are basically claiming to know an answer to an unanswerable or unknowable question. That sounds like faith to me, regardless of whether it makes them feel uncomfortable using the word. They have no problem with saying 'believe' or 'don't believe'. That right there screams 'based on faith not evidence'.

There is no empirical definition of what exactly god is, therefore there cannot be a definition of what constitutes evidence for the existence or non-existence of god. Therefore claiming affirmative on one side or the other is basically faith, but not necessarily religion.

86 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:19:07pm

re: #81 slokat

The flip side would be that if a devout believer dies and there is no god, they will never know... there won't be any one/place/thing/event for an apology.


Yup. That's hard to argue with, too.

87 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:19:08pm

re: #81 slokat

The flip side would be that if a devout believer dies and there is no god, they will never know... there won't be any one/place/thing/event for an apology.

And neither is coming back to correct the others.

88 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:19:21pm

re: #82 karmic_inquisitor

Excellent points - and, when they brand those who are scientists who believe in God as "heretics" they adopt the tactics of creationists. They are forcing a false choice.

Indeed- the exact false choice the creationists promote.

89 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:20:00pm

re: #78 BryanS

Except I can test/hypothesize about the existence of Santa Claus

Really? Even if it's as vaguely defined as your definition of "god"? (I.e., the existence of a Santa Claus "of sorts" who controls the nature of Christmas?)

90 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:20:48pm

re: #89 Occasional Reader

Really? Even if it's as vaguely defined as your definition of "god"? (I.e., the existence of a Santa Claus "of sorts" who controls the nature of Christmas?)

that's just funny bro...

91 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:21:38pm

re: #76 Occasional Reader

There's a seeker born every minute.

[hat tip: Firesign Theatre]

By the way, how do you define "agnostic" for your purposes?

Means after many years of poking around that I ain't got a clue. I am pretty sure that no on else has a clue either.

92 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:21:43pm

re: #72 Basho

Well said by Miller. That what intelligent intelligent design sounds like.

But there's no assurance that intelligent life had to happen. It only appeared once, and depended upon a long chain of unlikely occurrences, such as a meteor impact killing off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, and a single moon causing tides, and so on...

It makes more sense to view our existence as the result of lucky happenstance. It turns out that the universal constants rendered our evolution possible, but this is a far cry from proving it likely.

93 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:22:58pm

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

Or a ancient greek coin thread...

(what a wonderful piece of artwork)

Athenian Tetradrachm (new style circa 100 bce)
[Link: farm2.static.flickr.com...]

Lust. For. That.

Night all. Must elevate elephantine appendage again. (Swollen foot.)

94 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:23:37pm

re: #90 albusteve

that's just funny bro...

I'm actually not trying to be snarky. Well... not only snarky. Part of the problem with the argument of "you require faith to NOT believe in God" is the slipperiness of that definition of "God". To say "you can't prove the non-existence of some sort of god" is a meaningless statement; one might as well say, "you can't prove the non-existence of some sort of Blorg", and then refuse to pin down what "Blorg" means. Well, then, of course I can't prove it doesn't exist.

95 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:23:39pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

Indeed- the exact false choice the creationists promote.

It is more about applying the pressure of social exclusion in order to establish an orthodoxy.

Scientific inquiry should not give a crap about social orthodoxy. Nor does God - the choices we make and situations we navigate rarely are simple enough for the blind application of orthodoxy. Except in Iran and Saudi Arabia. And Berkeley.

96 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:23:57pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

You should read Just Six Numbers. I don't think it's possible that another universe with a different set of physical laws would achieve life. These six numbers he discusses show that a tinkering in them would not allow a universe like ours to evolve to a point able to support life. Fascinating stuff.

Doesn't that go against the extension of brane theory which is a variant of string theory?
That the numbers work out out in 11 dimensions? The Beauty of the LHC is that it allows scientists to collapse a gravity field near the speed of light to prove or disprove the theory of string theory...
It all boils down to this..You can have all the faith you want in the world..But you better have the numbers to back it up..
Thats real science

97 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:24:13pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

Indeed- the exact false choice the creationists promote.

Both extremes are itching to provoke a fight.

98 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:24:15pm

re: #93 Cato the Elder

Lust. For. That.

Night all. Must elevate elephantine appendage again. (Swollen foot.)

Wait, if you have a minute, what was the outcome of that? DId you see a doc? How are you?

99 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:24:25pm

re: #92 Salamantis

It makes fine philosophy, which seems to be where Miller was heading.

100 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:24:27pm

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

And neither is coming back to correct the others.

...you know that's actually one of the weird universal human stories.

Many cultures have entities that come back from beyond the grave to instruct the living.

101 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:24:39pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

That's why I have said for the longest time that god is a mathematician. There is too much that we don't see that is tied up in numbers and constants. Phi, pi, planck numbers, and so forth. Even chaotic systems have a strange order to them.

102 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:25:13pm

re: #94 Occasional Reader

I'm actually not trying to be snarky. Well... not only snarky. Part of the problem with the argument of "you require faith to NOT believe in God" is the slipperiness of that definition of "God". To say "you can't prove the non-existence of some sort of god" is a meaningless statement; one might as well say, "you can't prove the non-existence of some sort of Blorg", and then refuse to pin down what "Blorg" means. Well, then, of course I can't prove it doesn't exist.

Blorg... believe...

[Link: www.urbandictionary.com...]

103 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:25:21pm

re: #95 karmic_inquisitor

It is more about applying the pressure of social exclusion in order to establish an orthodoxy.

Scientific inquiry should not give a crap about social orthodoxy. Nor does God - the choices we make and situations we navigate rarely are simple enough for the blind application of orthodoxy. Except in Iran and Saudi Arabia. And Berkeley.

I liked that comment, too.

104 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:25:26pm

As I linked to last night, here's a review of Mr. Coyne's book

Jerry Coyne's new book 'Why Evolution is True' presents the science that coheres into fact

In Louisiana, a law signed in June by Gov. Bobby Jindal, a rising Republican star, allows teachers under the guise of academic freedom to use materials other than standard textbooks to help students "critique" certain scientific theories such as evolution and global warming. And at the Creation Museum near Cincinnati, which has drawn more than 630,000 visitors since its 2007 opening, a new exhibit will take on the "inaccuracies" of Charles Darwin's work.

All this makes Jerry Coyne's lucid, accessible "Why Evolution Is True" desperately needed. With logic and clarity, the University of Chicago professor presents the vast trove of scientific evidence that supports Darwin's theory.

Other recent pro-Darwin books have focused more on defusing the philosophical angst -- no room for God, no purpose or morality to life -- that evolution seems to spark. Coyne, an evolutionary geneticist who studies fruit flies, goes straight for the scientific proof. He draws on fresh findings from his own field, and from paleontology, molecular biology, geology and other disciplines to make the case that evolution is "far more than a theory, let alone a theory in crisis," but "a fact."

105 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:25:51pm

If you were to consider God to be first cause, without intelligence required, then you have a very difficult task in disproving the notion of God.

106 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:25:57pm

re: #94 Occasional Reader

I'm actually not trying to be snarky. Well... not only snarky. Part of the problem with the argument of "you require faith to NOT believe in God" is the slipperiness of that definition of "God". To say "you can't prove the non-existence of some sort of god" is a meaningless statement; one might as well say, "you can't prove the non-existence of some sort of Blorg", and then refuse to pin down what "Blorg" means. Well, then, of course I can't prove it doesn't exist.


I'm following...the analogy was a winner...I mean Santa Clause fer Gods sake!...whoops

107 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:26:11pm

re: #83 Salamantis

And did this being just set the universe in motion, so that the inexorable laws of cause and effect would result in the vast wheel and span of universal history, and the fine-grained chain of causation witnessed on Earth? Or does it dip its finger in now and then to magically and miraculously violate those universal laws? And if it was strong and smart enough to create the universe in the first place, why would it need to? [Why presume need rather than desire? Maybe because it could?] And why would such a vast cosmic being be in the least bit concerned with a reproducing film of life on the surface of a small planet circling a nondescript star in one corner of one of millions billions of galaxies?

FTFY

108 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:26:16pm

re: #85 ArchangelMichael

Why silly? When someone says 'I don't believe in God' they are basically claiming to know an answer to an unanswerable or unknowable question. That sounds like faith to me, regardless of whether it makes them feel uncomfortable using the word. They have no problem with saying 'believe' or 'don't believe'. That right there screams 'based on faith not evidence'.

There is no empirical definition of what exactly god is, therefore there cannot be a definition of what constitutes evidence for the existence or non-existence of god. Therefore claiming affirmative on one side or the other is basically faith, but not necessarily religion.

Trying to morph 'don't believe' into a form of belief is like trying to morphi 'don't screw' into a form of sexual experience.

109 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:26:17pm

re: #100 slokat

...you know that's actually one of the weird universal human stories. Many cultures have entities that come back from beyond the grave to instruct the living.

No, many cultures have myths and stories about entities that come back from beyond the grave.

110 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:27:15pm

re: #108 Salamantis

LMAO

111 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:27:17pm

re: #97 Syrah

Both extremes are itching to provoke a fight.

that's how evolution creates a gun thread...waiting

112 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:27:18pm

The other thing to note about some atheists - it's not don't believe, it's can't believe.

113 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:27:32pm

re: #101 BlueCanuck

That's why I have said for the longest time that god is a mathematician. There is too much that we don't see that is tied up in numbers and constants. Phi, pi, planck numbers, and so forth. Even chaotic systems have a strange order to them.

Never forget Fibonacci!

114 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:27:35pm

re: #105 Thanos

If you were to consider God to be first cause, without intelligence required, then you have a very difficult task in disproving the notion of God.

That would be fine with me, isn't going to fly with a lot of people.

115 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:27:52pm

re: #101 BlueCanuck

BTW- it took my awhile this afternoon to correct your dings. That was some pathetic BS.

116 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:28:24pm

re: #74 Sharmuta

Richard Dawkins Christmas Lectures 1991 - "Growing up in the Universe" - part 1. I think all the other parts are there.

A great educator, imho.

I think Coyne went too far in some respects in his piece, but I agreed with him fully on this:

So the obstacle to understanding is not religion, it is those aggressive atheistevolutionists who won't shut up. But consider this: it is Richard Dawkins who, more than anyone else, has convinced people of the reality and the power of evolution. It is the height of wishful thinking to claim that if he and his intellectual confreres simply stopped attacking religion, creationism would disappear.

117 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:29:18pm

re: #113 Cato the Elder

Never forget Fibonacci!

The Cartoon guide to Lob's theorem

118 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:29:32pm

re: #92 Salamantis

Err... My first response to that was lame and not thought out.

Miller says hypothesizing a creator to explain life is a valid scientific question. And it is. I wonder, though, what evidence it would take to convince Miller that the answer is no...

119 Yosemite Bill  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:29:57pm

"efforts to slander any believer by placing them in the “creationist” camp."
AHEM ! Gee this remark resembles more than a few folks here.
What that tolerance of diverse views by the NON-believers in allowing for the fact that mankind - that is man's perspective and mind are limited.
What we know or suspect we know as factual is a mere nanofraction of the universe. More humility please and LESS arrogance. Reason and science are to some religions. What we "know" must be tempered by the reality of what we have yet to comprehend .

120 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:29:59pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Did you me Not Many? as a rebuttal?

Most tribal cultures in the US have spirit guides, many asian cultures ask for advice from ancestors, african cultures say that the are guided by dead chiefs...

I've always liked myths, am amazed that if you break them down, so many are alike...

121 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:30:14pm

re: #83 Salamantis

And did this being just set the universe in motion, so that the inexorable laws of cause and effect would result in the vast wheel and span of universal history, and the fine-grained chain of causation witnessed on Earth? Or does it dip its finger in now and then to magically and miraculously violate those universal laws? And if it was strong and smart enough to create the universe in the first place, why would it need to? And why would such a vast cosmic being be in the least bit concerned with a reproducing film of life on the surface of a small planet circling a nondescript star in one corner of one of millions of galaxies?

Couldn't say for sure what such a being would precisely do--an atheist would likewise have to have a definition of god to know that one does not exist. Since I am saying I do not believe there is a god, I am using my understanding of what is meant by asserting a god exists. I'd say any of the things you wondered about whether was included in the definition of god are things I do not believe are controlled by some higher power/god or whatever you want to call it.

My basic assertion, though, is that it is silly to try to say that anyone can say that there is no such god that controls aspects of our universe, because there is no real way to test such a hypothesis.

122 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:30:25pm

Howdy folks...what's happenin?

123 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:30:30pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

Wait, if you have a minute, what was the outcome of that? DId you see a doc? How are you?

No major damage, just hyperextension of both ankle and knee. Plus big painful knob on back of head. And a dog who's very upset at having to make do with the back yard instead of walks.

Thanks for asking!

124 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:30:35pm

re: #108 Salamantis

I'm not morphing non-belief into belief. If you claim to know something that is not possible to be known it is faith because it is definitely not based on any empirical evidence.

125 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:31:47pm

re: #107 Cato the Elder

FTFY

But why would it want to do it that way rather than another, more parsiminous way of which it were also capable? And don't give me that 'inscrutable mind of God" stuff; if a creating God weren't logical, it wouldn't have been possible to derive logic from witnessing its creation.

126 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:32:05pm

re: #108 Salamantis

Trying to morph 'don't believe' into a form of belief is like trying to morphi 'don't screw' into a form of sexual experience.

As someone else said "Atheism is a religion like baldness is a haircut".

127 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:32:11pm

re: #124 ArchangelMichael

I'm not morphing non-belief into belief. If you claim to know something that is not possible to be known it is faith because it is definitely not based on any empirical evidence.

as in the Cards will win the Super Bowl...got it

128 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:32:36pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

Thank you. I went back to fix some as well. That was really sick and stupid. Glad that stinky finally gave that troll the stick.

129 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:33:28pm

re: #118 Basho

Err... My first response to that was lame and not thought out.

Miller says hypothesizing a creator to explain life is a valid scientific question. And it is. I wonder, though, what evidence it would take to convince Miller that the answer is no...

If it ain't empirically falsifiable, it ain't empirical science.

130 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:33:41pm

re: #127 albusteve

as in the Cards will win the Super Bowl...got it

...that's statistics mixed with luck.

131 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:34:36pm

re: #120 slokat

Did you me Not Many? as a rebuttal? Most tribal cultures in the US have spirit guides, many asian cultures ask for advice from ancestors, african cultures say that the are guided by dead chiefs... I've always liked myths, am amazed that if you break them down, so many are alike...

The way you comment was worded, I thought you were making a definitive statement "many cultures have entities."

My mistake, it was the "have" that made me think you were saying it was fact.

132 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:34:53pm
I, for one, don't remember any such vow in my training, my PhD exam, or my tenure review—although perhaps things work a little differently at the University of Chicago.

Zingahhh!

133 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:35:18pm

re: #119 Yosemite Bill

"efforts to slander any believer by placing them in the “creationist” camp."
AHEM ! Gee this remark resembles more than a few folks here.
What that tolerance of diverse views by the NON-believers in allowing for the fact that mankind - that is man's perspective and mind are limited.
What we know or suspect we know as factual is a mere nanofraction of the universe. More humility please and LESS arrogance. Reason and science are to some religions. What we "know" must be tempered by the reality of what we have yet to comprehend .

Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we don't know some things. Like, for instance, the scientific soundness of evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

134 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:35:44pm

re: #130 slokat

...that's statistics mixed with luck.

luck is an undisputable aspect of the human existance and sucess...take the points

135 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:36:10pm

Gotta go. Nite all.

136 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:36:56pm

Just for grins, let's suppose there was/is an "intelligent designer". Now let's suppose that the paragon of the designer's design gets a handle on how the designer did it. How could that designer be insulted?

If I figure out how a master magician performed his magic it does not make him any less of a magician. It just proves that I'm getting smarter.

137 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:37:02pm

re: #126 Jimmah

As someone else said "Atheism is a religion like baldness is a haircut".

And I clearly stated it is faith, not religion. Atheism isn't a religion. There are arguably atheistic religions like Secular Humanism but atheism is not a religion. Theism isn't in and of itself a religion either, simply a world view and a basis upon which religions and/or philosophies can be based. I'm always amused how many atheists get in a tizzy when this comes up. Go ahead down ding my post if you insist but the very definition of faith is accepting something as truth without proof.

138 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:37:05pm

This thing is just itching to become a gun thread. Or a boob thread. I can feel it.

139 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:37:14pm

re: #127 albusteve

as in the Cards will win the Super Bowl...got it

Steve, Steve, Steve...If the Card win the Super Bowl then we will have proof certain that there is a God, and that Steve is his prophet.

140 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:37:36pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

The section of the book that sticks in my mind the most was the number involved in nuclear fusion. I think it's .007 (.006? Help!) That is the mass lost in the fusion process, and if it was more or if it was less, life isn't supportable in this universe. Therefore I doubt if this number was different in another universe, that life would be supportable there.

141 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:37:42pm

re: #124 ArchangelMichael

I'm not morphing non-belief into belief. If you claim to know something that is not possible to be known it is faith because it is definitely not based on any empirical evidence.

There is a vast difference between believing that there is NOT a God and not believing that there IS. One is a presence of belief in an absence, and the other is an absence of belief in a presence.

142 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:37:55pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

This thing is just itching to become a gun thread. Or a boob thread. I can feel it.

Or maybe a conspiracy thread!

143 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:38:30pm

re: #136 USBeast

Just for grins, let's suppose there was/is an "intelligent designer". Now let's suppose that the paragon of the designer's design gets a handle on how the designer did it. How could that designer be insulted?

If I figure out how a master magician performed his magic it does not make him any less of a magician. It just proves that I'm getting smarter.

Or the magician is getting sloppy.

144 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:38:30pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

The section of the book that sticks in my mind the most was the number involved in nuclear fusion. I think it's .007 (.006? Help!) That is the mass lost in the fusion process, and if it was more or if it was less, life isn't supportable in this universe. Therefore I doubt if this number was different in another universe, that life would be supportable there.

Or, it would be some very different kind of "life".

145 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:39:02pm

re: #142 karmic_inquisitor

Or maybe a conspiracy thread!

THEY are trying to hide the Troof about guns and boobs.

146 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:39:22pm

The virtue of any theory in science is that it is able to predict what happens next when you test it. Intelligent creation cannot answer that question, evolution does. As a result it is not even a conjecture; for a conjecture can lead one to a coherent theory which then leads to prediction. Theories get tested and modified as new facts are observed and become even better predictors in the future. If you insist on belief in a Deity, then via the razor of William of Ockham (who was a monk btw), you must believe in the most simple method of explanation (or as some of us will put it, the least degrees of freedom in the equation) for what you see. Thus you will believe that God invented the process of evolution and all else follows. To believe otherwise is inconsistent with the process of logic.

147 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:39:24pm

re: #141 Salamantis

Whoa. Well said. Favorited that!

148 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:39:35pm

re: #139 The Shadow Do

Steve, Steve, Steve...If the Card win the Super Bowl then we will have proof certain that there is a God, and that Steve is his prophet.

HA!...good one...I'm having my robes dry cleaned as we speak...I'm donned in Cardinal Red this week...see me, feel me...

149 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:39:40pm

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

Or the magician is getting sloppy.

Or the magician will say "Finally figured it out, eh? Here, try this next one..."

150 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:04pm

re: #144 Occasional Reader

Or, it would be some very different kind of "life".

No- the universe would collapse or expand at too great a rate either way to allow life to evolve. Again- fascinating stuff.

151 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:13pm

OT: If you want a great laugh just before heading to bed, check out Iowahawks latest work of genius!

152 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:20pm

re: #145 Occasional Reader

THEY are trying to hide the Troof about guns and boobs.

The thread hat trick. Congrats!

153 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:26pm

re: #137 ArchangelMichael

And I clearly stated it is faith, not religion. Atheism isn't a religion. There are arguably atheistic religions like Secular Humanism but atheism is not a religion. Theism isn't in and of itself a religion either, simply a world view and a basis upon which religions and/or philosophies can be based. I'm always amused how many atheists get in a tizzy when this comes up. Go ahead down ding my post if you insist but the very definition of faith is accepting something as truth without proof.

In this case, we're talking about NOT accepting something - the existence of God - as true without proof (or at least credible evidence).

154 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:54pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

This thing is just itching to become a gun thread. Or a boob thread. I can feel it.

my toes are crossed...do you know of the Judge from Taurus?...it's not a Hollywood movie...

155 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:58pm

re: #111 albusteve

that's how evolution creates a gun thread...waiting

I don't know about that. I think that there must be a Gun equivalent of Godwin's law, that similar to its better know cousin states that as a threaded forum discussion grows longer, the probability of a gun thread developing approaches one.

156 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:41:02pm

re: #139 The Shadow Do

Steve, Steve, Steve...If the Card win the Super Bowl then we will have proof certain that there is a God, and that Steve is his prophet.

Speaking of the SB...anyone watching SB Xlll on the NFL network?

Staubach vs Bradshaw...classic football.

157 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:41:41pm

re: #125 Salamantis

But why would it want to do it that way rather than another, more parsiminous way of which it were also capable? And don't give me that 'inscrutable mind of God" stuff; if a creating God weren't logical, it wouldn't have been possible to derive logic from witnessing its creation.

Er, for the fun of it?

If one posits a god that can want to create a universe, what is to stop us from positing that it would do so in a non-parsimonious way as a matter of, for lack of a better word, artistry?

Maybe there are multiple universes, each with its own god, each god competing with all the others to see which one can make the prettiest/weirdest/classiest/silliest universe.

Of course that gets us into infinite regression, because the universe-creating god-competitors would necessarily have to inhabit a universe of their own, for which one would have to posit a creator, ad infinitum. But then infinite regressivity is where these debates always end up anyway. Hence the necessity, at some point, of faith - if one posits a god at all.

At any rate, in the above scenario, I would have to posit that we live in a candidate for the "weirdest" universe prize.

158 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:41:50pm

re: #141 Salamantis

There is a vast difference between believing that there is NOT a God and not believing that there IS. One is a presence of belief in an absence, and the other is an absence of belief in a presence.

But its not even possible to define absence and presence in this case because there is no universally agreed upon definition of god. It's like the post above mentioning whether you believe in "blorg".

159 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:41:56pm

re: #141 Salamantis

There is a vast difference between believing that there is NOT a God and not believing that there IS. One is a presence of belief in an absence, and the other is an absence of belief in a presence.

That was a great post Salamantis.

160 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:42:03pm

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

Or the magician is getting sloppy.

Looking at the universe, "getting" sloppy is a bit behind the curve.

161 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:42:07pm

re: #148 albusteve

HA!...good one...I'm having my robes dry cleaned as we speak...I'm donned in Cardinal Red this week...see me, feel me...

Steve sure plays a mean pin ball...

162 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:42:23pm

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

Speaking of the SB...anyone watching SB Xlll on the NFL network?

Staubach vs Bradshaw...classic football.

STAUBACH is GOD!...oh sorry...

163 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:43:31pm

re: #158 ArchangelMichael

But its not even possible to define absence and presence in this case because there is no universally agreed upon definition of god. It's like the post above mentioning whether you believe in "blorg".

The working definition on this thread seems to be an intelligent and powerful being that created the universe.

164 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:43:44pm

re: #162 albusteve

STAUBACH is GOD!...oh sorry...

I'm hoping he can pull it out this time.

165 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:43:56pm

re: #141 Salamantis

There is a vast difference between believing that there is NOT a God and not believing that there IS. One is a presence of belief in an absence, and the other is an absence of belief in a presence.

Agreed--I think some were confusing the two vis-a-vis some of my posts. I think the "belief in an absence" type of atheist has to have some faith that they are correct since they cannot really prove their beliefs. I do not think that later half is something that could be claimed to require faith.

166 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:45:23pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

Er, for the fun of it?

If one posits a god that can want to create a universe, what is to stop us from positing that it would do so in a non-parsimonious way as a matter of, for lack of a better word, artistry?

Maybe there are multiple universes, each with its own god, each god competing with all the others to see which one can make the prettiest/weirdest/classiest/silliest universe.

Of course that gets us into infinite regression, because the universe-creating god-competitors would necessarily have to inhabit a universe of their own, for which one would have to posit a creator, ad infinitum. But then infinite regressivity is where these debates always end up anyway. Hence the necessity, at some point, of faith - if one posits a god at all.

At any rate, in the above scenario, I would have to posit that we live in a candidate for the "weirdest" universe prize.

Fun, but by definition there can be only one of those guys.

167 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:45:26pm

re: #161 The Shadow Do

Steve sure plays a mean pin ball...

re: #161 The Shadow Do

Steve sure plays a mean pin ball...

I'm your Wicked Uncle Ernie too

168 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:45:41pm

re: #101 BlueCanuck

That's why I have said for the longest time that god is a mathematician. There is too much that we don't see that is tied up in numbers and constants. Phi, pi, planck numbers, and so forth. Even chaotic systems have a strange order to them.

I agree with you. A lot of the math and physics was a bit over my head in that book, but I still walked away having learned quite a bit, and was awed by God's creation just that much more.

169 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:46:17pm

re: #167 albusteve

I'm your Wicked Uncle Ernie too

Great album.

170 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:46:26pm

re: #164 NJDhockeyfan

I'm hoping he can pull it out this time.


HAIL MARY!...
and Pippen too

171 Hhar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:47:35pm

I note that most of the arguments against the existence of G-d so far proffered seem to boil down to "If I were G-d, I wouldda done it different."

The blazing, iridescent narcissism of the approach is breathtaking.

172 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:47:49pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

You should read Just Six Numbers. I don't think it's possible that another universe with a different set of physical laws would achieve life. These six numbers he discusses show that a tinkering in them would not allow a universe like ours to evolve to a point able to support life. Fascinating stuff.

One of the common flawed assumptions that people make is that either things are unconnected, or that they are linked in a causal chain, with one of them causing all the others. I do not see the 'six numbers' uninvolved with each other, but neither do I see any one of them as being the cause of the others. Rather, I view them as a dynamically recursive system of co-primordial equals, which mutually determine each other. Each of them is the value it is and not another value because the others are what they are and not other values.

173 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:48:23pm

re: #101 BlueCanuck

That's why I have said for the longest time that god is a mathematician. There is too much that we don't see that is tied up in numbers and constants. Phi, pi, planck numbers, and so forth. Even chaotic systems have a strange order to them.

You see? Man must put God in his box..It's what we do..
/Hi bro
***
Larry King: So God I'm so glad you could join us tonight..
God: Thanks Larry..hey I knew you guys needed the ratings..
LK: So it's said that you are a genius with mathematics..how do you respond to that?
G: Well really..Math was never my strong suite..I could always get by..As a kid Type one supernova math always was fun..We'd blow up a galaxy and mom was always mad at me.
LK: So what is your strong suite? What really makes you tick?
We'll take a quick break and be right back..
***
Commercial break..Campbell Brown turns on Obama
***
LK: Well we are back..God?
God: My strong point has always been life..I loved to see babies born..Mothers raise thier children..Men defend thier home..
I loved to see people fall in Love..It tickled me just as much to see the smallest speck of life exist to the kings of Israel rule and the signing of the Declaration of independence.. I love life...I am love.
LK: So what has been your greatest disappointment God?
God: To see those that are blessed with the gift of life..strap on a bomb on their children and destroy it. It breaks my heart...
To be blessed with life and spend a lifetime preaching Hate and destruction..to those that spew hate and death..To those that cannot forgive and live in peace..To those that value Cain over Able.. To those that cannot see beyond the color of the skin, the color of the eyes...
I spend 14 Billion years watching this evolve.. I'm disappointed..
LK: Thank you for that...

174 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:48:41pm

re: #169 karmic_inquisitor

Great album.


I was extremely fortunate to see that whole gig at Cobo Hall in Detroit in 1970...they only did it a coupla times on that tour...just fucking amazing...their encore was a 10min version of 'Magic Bus'...whoa

175 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:48:41pm

re: #131 Walter L. Newton

Cool, plus with typos from posting too fast, thought we might be talking past each other on accident.

Common Myths (in many cultures):

Creation - came from somewhere else, made by something, made from earth, basically in a different category than other living things...

Flood - weirdly this is in many cultures

Monsters & Giants (and dwarves/elves/pixies too!) - things existed that no longer exist

Taboos - if you do this you are outcast... fairly similar lists, but not identical

Bogeyman - he'll get you if you stray

Righteousness - these rules mean you stay

Spirits - they guide you to make right choices

Paradise - came from/going to...

Afterlife - there's more...

Plus, assorted gods & immortals.

176 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:48:47pm

re: #129 Salamantis

If it ain't empirically falsifiable, it ain't empirical science.

The afterlife is empirically falsifiable. Unfortunately, all the people who went to test it have yet to come back and report their results!

I guess we'll all be finding out the answer to that someday =)

177 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:48:49pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

I read this one book talking about chaos, evolution, dna, the works. Can't remember the title of it off hand. Reason why I can't lay my hands on it was that I lent it to my mother. Simple book, simple analogies, minimal math. Chaos theory dumbed down for normal people.

/helped me get a clearer grasp on a lot of things.

178 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:49:09pm

re: #171 Hhar

I note that most of the arguments against the existence of G-d so far proffered seem to boil down to "If I were G-d, I wouldda done it different."

The blazing, iridescent narcissism of the approach is breathtaking.

Well done.

179 Yosemite Bill  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:49:39pm

#133 - Salamantis -
Yes there is much we know. That is not in question.
Like the "Junk DNA" in the human genome project--- gee it turned out that it was not junk !... THere is much we DO NOT know.

180 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:49:40pm

re: #171 Hhar

I note that most of the arguments against the existence of G-d so far proffered seem to boil down to "If I were G-d, I wouldda done it different."

The blazing, iridescent narcissism of the approach is breathtaking.

I glow, therefor I am...

181 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:50:42pm

re: #171 Hhar

I note that most of the arguments against the existence of G-d so far proffered seem to boil down to "If I were G-d, I wouldda done it different."

The blazing, iridescent narcissism of the approach is breathtaking.

Well If I were God, I would not have evolved humans to retain an abdominal weakness from where the gonads pass through the abdominal wall during gestation. I have had three inguinal hernias because of this 'design flaw'.

182 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:52:28pm

re: #176 Basho

The afterlife is empirically falsifiable. Unfortunately, all the people who went to test it have yet to come back and report their results!

I guess we'll all be finding out the answer to that someday =)

Only one way we will find out. Maybe it's a good thing that no one has returned to tell us what lies beyond. If it is a paradise too many people would want to go right away. It would make this whole life meaningless if that was the case.

183 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:53:03pm

Good night.

184 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:53:33pm

re: #163 Salamantis

The working definition on this thread seems to be an intelligent and powerful being that created the universe.

And what are observable aspects of such a being? Not possible to know simply based solely on that definition. Evidence of the presence or absence is not knowable. It is beyond human comprehension.

185 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:53:35pm

re: #181 Salamantis

hmmm, design flaw - or operator error?

/ I have my original owner's manual, but don't know if it's only for my serial number or if it can be used cross platform...

186 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:53:42pm

re: #179 Yosemite Bill

#133 - Salamantis -
Yes there is much we know. That is not in question.
Like the "Junk DNA" in the human genome project--- gee it turned out that it was not junk !... THere is much we DO NOT know.

We do know that great apes and humans evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors, because shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences embedded in our respective genomes proved it beyond a shadow of a rational statistical doubt.

187 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:53:57pm

re: #175 slokat

Cool, plus with typos from posting too fast, thought we might be talking past each other on accident.

Common Myths (in many cultures):

Creation - came from somewhere else, made by something, made from earth, basically in a different category than other living things...

Flood - weirdly this is in many cultures

Monsters & Giants (and dwarves/elves/pixies too!) - things existed that no longer exist

Taboos - if you do this you are outcast... fairly similar lists, but not identical

Bogeyman - he'll get you if you stray

Righteousness - these rules mean you stay

Spirits - they guide you to make right choices

Paradise - came from/going to...

Afterlife - there's more...

Plus, assorted gods & immortals.

All of that is either proof of God's commonality, or not.

188 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:54:18pm

re: #182 BlueCanuck

Only one way we will find out. Maybe it's a good thing that no one has returned to tell us what lies beyond. If it is a paradise too many people would want to go right away. It would make this whole life meaningless if that was the case.

Well, some people would disagree with "no one has returned to tell us what lies beyond". How else would we know whether all those virgins are going to be there waiting for those who blow themselves up in the name of their god?

189 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:55:06pm

re: #182 BlueCanuck

Only one way we will find out. Maybe it's a good thing that no one has returned to tell us what lies beyond. If it is a paradise too many people would want to go right away. It would make this whole life meaningless if that was the case.

personally I wont discount it...it will be my last refuge if God lets me in...seems unlikely at this point tho...

190 Bobblehead  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:55:20pm

re: #181 Salamantis

Well If I were God, I would not have evolved humans to retain an abdominal weakness from where the gonads pass through the abdominal wall during gestation. I have had three inguinal hernias because of this 'design flaw'.


Sooner or later He'll work out the kinks. Right now think of yourself as a test model.

191 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:55:26pm

re: #170 albusteve

HAIL MARY!...
and Pippen too

Hollywood Henderson spotted with a handful of stickum.

/remember stickum?

192 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:56:11pm

re: #184 ArchangelMichael

And what are observable aspects of such a being? Not possible to know simply based solely on that definition. Evidence of the presence or absence is not knowable. It is beyond human comprehension.

What we CAN say is that, as far as we can tell, such a being is not necessary for the Universe to exist as is. At least, we have never been able top empirically prove such a necessity.

193 Cato the Elder  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:57:02pm

re: #166 The Shadow Do

Fun, but by definition there can be only one of those guys.

One ultimate creator, but at how many removes? That is what is meant by infinite regression.

And now I really have to go put my foot up, or I'll be sorry in the morning. Night, all! I'll check to see if everybody has reached a general agreement in the morning... ;^O

194 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:57:19pm

re: #172 Salamantis

One of the common flawed assumptions that people make is that either things are unconnected, or that they are linked in a causal chain, with one of them causing all the others. I do not see the 'six numbers' uninvolved with each other, but neither do I see any one of them as being the cause of the others. Rather, I view them as a dynamically recursive system of co-primordial equals, which mutually determine each other. Each of them is the value it is and not another value because the others are what they are and not other values.

I can't disagree with you. The 6 are separate, yet connected. Change one of them though, and the universe as we know it would not exist. It's these 6 numbers that, in conjunction with each other, has given rise to a universe in which life had the ability to evolve. There are very interesting graphs that help explain the intricacies- and a good thing too, as I kinda needed them.

It was thanks to Ken Miller mentioning this book in Only A Theory that I came across it, and was fascinated to learn more by the passing example Dr. Miller cited. Thanks, Dr. Ken!

195 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:58:06pm

re: #190 Bobblehead

Sooner or later He'll work out the kinks. Right now think of yourself as a test model.

That model has been tested by many billions of men over many, many years. It fails miserably. I can't wait for the Abdomen 2.0 upgrade.

196 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:58:14pm

re: #187 The Shadow Do

All of that is either proof of God's commonality, or not.

It seems like evidence towards human commonality, plus it is interesting that the same stories keep getting invented.

Maybe humans don't have enough imagination to invent others?
Maybe they all have common stimulus & artifacts?

I'm not advancing a theory, just making a limited observation based on my own reading.

197 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:58:20pm

re: #188 BryanS

Well, some people would disagree with "no one has returned to tell us what lies beyond". How else would we know whether all those virgins are going to be there waiting for those who blow themselves up in the name of their god?

Well you know Pat Robinson talks to God on a regular basis..right?
He said so..
The word is there is a dangerously low level of Virgins in heaven right now..
The call is out..So if I was a martyr right now..I'd hold off for a while
/

198 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:58:33pm

re: #192 Salamantis

There are more sensible alternatives. See my link at 77, I think you'll like that article =)

199 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:58:57pm

re: #191 NJDhockeyfan

Hollywood Henderson spotted with a handful of stickum.

/remember stickum?


they illegalized it because Fred Belitnikof(sp) of the Raiders smothered himself with that stuff...hands and arms and jersey...those were the good old days...he was a hell of a reciever non the less...c'mon Fred...

200 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:58:58pm

re: #163 Salamantis

The working definition on this thread seems to be an intelligent and powerful being that created the universe.

If an intelligent and powerful being created this universe, that Being's intelligence must be so far beyond the comprehension of Its creations that the attempts of those creations to comprehend creation must be a colossal waste of time.

I cannot think of a better way to waste a colossal amount of time.

201 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:59:30pm

re: #191 NJDhockeyfan

Hollywood Henderson spotted with a handful of stickum.

/remember stickum?

Fred Biletknokoff - sticky bastid

202 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:59:40pm

Let me break it down. The abridged version of creation in the Bible says thus, in chronological order..

The big bang, then light, land, water, sky, plants, fish, birds, land animals, and finally men.

Hello. When did all the bugs sneak in?

203 jwb7605  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:01:31pm

Good night, all!

204 UberInfidel67  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:01:50pm

**OT** Woo-Hoo Coach of the Year goes to...
Mike Tomlin of the Steelers!

205 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:02:03pm

re: #192 Salamantis

What we CAN say is that, as far as we can tell, such a being is not necessary for the Universe to exist as is. At least, we have never been able top empirically prove such a necessity.

Not sure how we'd ever find such evidence proving such a being would exist. All science can do is prove how the known rules of the universe work. It cannot prove why the universe exists. I am comfortable with that uncertainty.

I do have to say, though, that those who believe there is no creator/god are less dangerous to science in my mind than those whose faith wants them to find evidence of it.

206 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:02:43pm

OK- 0.7% is the weight lost in nuclear fusion of hydrogen to helium.

If that number was more or less, the universe as we know it would not be able to have evolved to the point of sustaining life to the extent it sustains it now.

207 Yosemite Bill  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:02:51pm

#184 - 186 Salamantis
Uncaused first cause. What or Whom set all this in motion ? And to what end(s)?
Big questions. I am NOT so arrogant as to presume I know the answer(s).
Reason - logic and science have many answers- but certainly not all.

Still cleaning up - catching up from our most recent butt kicking from old man winter.
Good evening.

208 Bobblehead  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:03:25pm

re: #195 Salamantis

That model has been tested by many billions of men over many, many years. It fails miserably. I can't wait for the Abdomen 2.0 upgrade.

LOL I know where you are coming from. The spouse has had three hernia operations also. My son had one when he was an infant.

209 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:03:35pm

re: #200 USBeast

If an intelligent and powerful being created this universe, that Being's intelligence must be so far beyond the comprehension of Its creations that the attempts of those creations to comprehend creation must be a colossal waste of time.

I cannot think of a better way to waste a colossal amount of time.

Such a gargantuan being would, by the same token, either be uninterested in us at all, or else its interests in us would be so alien to our understanding as to be incomprehensible to us. And not necessarily benevolent. We wouldn't be like flies to it; we would be like microbes on the edge of one fly wing.

210 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:03:48pm

re: #199 albusteve

they illegalized it because Fred Belitnikof(sp) of the Raiders smothered himself with that stuff...hands and arms and jersey...those were the good old days...he was a hell of a reciever non the less...c'mon Fred...

I remember seeing Lester Hayes with both hands in a bucket of stickum.

211 SteveC  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:03:53pm

Good evening, all!

212 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:03:57pm

re: #197 HoosierHoops

Heh . Now if we could only get those "martyrs" to buy that :)

213 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:04:11pm

I love my science fiction. Some of my favourite books deal with all aspects of this argument. Robert J. Sawyer wrote two books that deal with evolution and one with god. "Factoring Humanity", and "Calculating God". The latter starts with an alien landing at the Royal Ontario Museum, and the first words out of it's mouth is "Take me to a paleontologist". In evolution there is also Greg Bears "Darwins Radio", where humanity is evolving to the next level.

214 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:04:12pm

re: #204 UberInfidel67

**OT** Woo-Hoo Coach of the Year goes to...
Mike Tomlin of the Steelers!

And so it should be. In todays sports that means he has two more years on his contract, at best.

215 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:04:41pm

re: #202 Mich-again

Let me break it down. The abridged version of creation in the Bible says thus, in chronological order..

The big bang, then light, land, water, sky, plants, fish, birds, land animals, and finally men.

Hello. When did all the bugs sneak in?

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Looks like 6th day in this passage...water bugs would be day 5 though.

216 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:05:06pm

Sala- I owe you an email from our chat last night. Let me do that now before I forget.

217 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:05:16pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

Sharm, those six numbers, is that metaphor or does the author talk about six actual factors? If yes, what are they?

218 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:05:44pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

OK- 0.7% is the weight lost in nuclear fusion of hydrogen to helium.

If that number was more or less, the universe as we know it would not be able to have evolved to the point of sustaining life to the extent it sustains it now.

Yes the conversion of matter to energy...E=mc2
Einstein you magnificent Bastard! I read your book!

219 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:05:52pm

re: #198 Basho

There are more sensible alternatives. See my link at 77, I think you'll like that article =)

Well, my definition of the universe (and there's a reason it's called 'the') is all that is, was, and will be. If such multiple physical-law-spaces exist, they would have to be component parts of a greater systemic universal whole.

220 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:06:43pm

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

I remember seeing Lester Hayes with both hands in a bucket of stickum.

Hains and Hayes...some big hittin mfr's...H Long and Alzado and the Snake etc...hell of a team back then

221 SteveC  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:06:50pm

re: #208 Bobblehead

LOL I know where you are coming from. The spouse has had three hernia operations also. My son had one when he was an infant.

Don't start! My hernia has been bugging me off and on for two weeks now. Surgery isn't recommended because my PulseOx is 85%. So I just gotta nod and smile.

222 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:07:12pm

re: #192 Salamantis

I agree with you on that but also realize we are quite far from understanding all the ins and outs of the big bang (or singularities in general), whether there was a "before", why didn't the universe immediately re-collapse, whether there exists a multi-verse in which our universe exists, what part does vacuum energy play in this all, etc, etc... Way too early to declare anything as set in stone in that regard.

223 swamprat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:08:03pm

re: #200 USBeast

If an intelligent and powerful being created this universe, that Being's intelligence must be so far beyond the comprehension of Its creations that the attempts of those creations to comprehend creation must be a colossal waste of time.

I cannot think of a better way to waste a colossal amount of time.

Why we cannot truly know about god. Why we wouldn't recognize an alien artifact if we lived on a stack of them.

224 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:08:05pm

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

I remember seeing Lester Hayes with both hands in a bucket of stickum.

Human flypaper. Defensive backs would have to wash up after a tackle.

225 UberInfidel67  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:08:12pm

re: #214 The Shadow Do

The Steeeler franchise doesn't toss their coaches around as easily as some other teams. Steelers have had, I believe,4 or 5 coaches in their history. Nah...he's here for awhile...unless HE decides to leave.

226 Basho  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:08:31pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

Sharm, those six numbers, is that metaphor or does the author talk about six actual factors? If yes, what are they?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

227 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:08:34pm
228 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:09:23pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

Sharm, those six numbers, is that metaphor or does the author talk about six actual factors? If yes, what are they?

No- he's literally discussing 6 numbers. Wow- don't make me rack my brain to remember them. My smurfy little head will hurt. ;)

229 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:09:38pm

re: #225 UberInfidel67

The Steeeler franchise doesn't toss their coaches around as easily as some other teams. Steelers have had, I believe,4 or 5 coaches in their history. Nah...he's here for awhile...unless HE decides to leave.

Nolan, Cowher, Tomlin...Amazing stability..

230 summergurl  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:10:00pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

Sharm, those six numbers, is that metaphor or does the author talk about six actual factors? If yes, what are they?

From the review on Amazon

The six numbers are:

nu (a ratio of the strength of electrical forces that hold atoms together compared to the force of gravity which is 10 to the 37th power)

epsilon (how firmly the atomic nuclei bind together which is 0.004)

omega (amount of material in the universe)

lambda (force of cosmic "antigravity" discovered in 1998, which is a very small number)

Q (ratio of two fundamental energies, which is 1/100,000)

delta (number of spatial dimensions in our universe)

231 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:10:04pm

re: #207 Yosemite Bill

#184 - 186 Salamantis
Uncaused first cause. What or Whom set all this in motion ? And to what end(s)?
Big questions. I am NOT so arrogant as to presume I know the answer(s).
Reason - logic and science have many answers- but certainly not all.

Still cleaning up - catching up from our most recent butt kicking from old man winter.
Good evening.

You're assuming that the universe was caused, and furthermore, that it was caused for some purpose - that is, you are assuming as a premise what you purport to prove as a conclusion. That is bad logic, and worse sceince. There is no intelligible reason why a random quantum fluctuation, occuring for no reason whatsoever and without cause, could not have begun the Big Bang. After all, particle - anti-particle pairs are randomly popping into and out of existence in the quantum foam all the time, without rhyme, reason or cause.

232 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:10:51pm

re: #225 UberInfidel67

The Steeeler franchise doesn't toss their coaches around as easily as some other teams. Steelers have had, I believe,4 or 5 coaches in their history. Nah...he's here for awhile...unless HE decides to leave.

oh big whoop...the Cowboys have kicked their ass plenty of times...and those two Supers in the 70's the Steelers were lucky to leave town in one piece and they knew it...go Cards!

233 UberInfidel67  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:10:54pm

re: #229 HoosierHoops
I think that is what their secret it. But of course, the news also had to show how The One is, was, and always has been a Steeler fan. I feel a little dirty right now. I will just block that out though. lol

234 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:11:02pm

re: #226 Basho

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Thanks.

235 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:11:22pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

OK- 0.7% is the weight lost in nuclear fusion of hydrogen to helium.

If that number was more or less, the universe as we know it would not be able to have evolved to the point of sustaining life to the extent it sustains it now.

So are you suggesting such specific requirements of the universe are evidence of a plan? Evolution shows spontaneous assemblance of order is possible.

236 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:11:27pm

re: #230 summergurl

Thanks! Like I said- a bit over my head, but I still gained a lot from trying to wade through it.

237 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:11:43pm

re: #209 Salamantis

Such a gargantuan being would, by the same token, either be uninterested in us at all, or else its interests in us would be so alien to our understanding as to be incomprehensible to us. And not necessarily benevolent. We wouldn't be like flies to it; we would be like microbes on the edge of one fly wing.

And would those microbes be wrong in investigating their origins?

238 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:11:54pm

re: #220 albusteve

Hains and Hayes...some big hittin mfr's...H Long and Alzado and the Snake etc...hell of a team back then

It's fun watching this game. Brings back fond memories of rooting for the Cowboys during my youth.

I saw that team play in Philadelphia in 1980 with Danny White as the starter. Watching Tom Landry walk the field and sidelines was incredible.

239 rb4269  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:12:08pm

To paraphrase Bart Simpson, and I quote: "God, schmod, I want my monkeyman!"

240 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:12:13pm

re: #231 Salamantis

After all, particle - anti-particle pairs are randomly popping into and out of existence in the quantum foam all the time, without rhyme, reason or cause.


This statement need some support...

thanks in advance

241 summergurl  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:12:19pm

re: #236 Sharmuta

Thanks! Like I said- a bit over my head, but I still gained a lot from trying to wade through it.

Heck my IQ increased just reading the reader comments.

242 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:12:19pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

OK- 0.7% is the weight lost in nuclear fusion of hydrogen to helium.

If that number was more or less, the universe as we know it would not be able to have evolved to the point of sustaining life to the extent it sustains it now.

For some reason that triggered a thought about "Heat death/cold death" of the universe. Both have entropy driving everything further apart and less ordered. Life in the universe will have long since vanished.

243 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:12:52pm

re: #231 Salamantis

snip: After all, particle - anti-particle pairs are randomly popping into and out of existence in the quantum foam all the time, without rhyme, reason or cause.

..that we can understand.

244 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:13:06pm

re: #235 BryanS

So are you suggesting such specific requirements of the universe are evidence of a plan? Evolution shows spontaneous assemblance of order is possible.

I'm not suggesting anything- just trying to comment on the facts as I recall them. I didn't purchase the book, I borrowed it from the library, so I can't access it to refresh my memory or cite the author.

245 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:13:25pm

re: #238 NJDhockeyfan

It's fun watching this game. Brings back fond memories of rooting for the Cowboys during my youth.

I saw that team play in Philadelphia in 1980 with Danny White as the starter. Watching Tom Landry walk the field and sidelines was incredible.

so you saw God?...I'm envious...I've been a die hard fan since 1965...a long road...

246 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:13:43pm

re: #220 albusteve

Hains and Hayes...some big hittin mfr's...H Long and Alzado and the Snake etc...hell of a team back then

I knew Alzado when he played for the Broncs. Truly a good guy. Frothing at the mouth and loaded with drugs on game day. Steroids killed him. He told everybody he could. No one listened. They still don't. Damn shame.

247 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:14:01pm

re: #222 ArchangelMichael

I agree with you on that but also realize we are quite far from understanding all the ins and outs of the big bang (or singularities in general), whether there was a "before", why didn't the universe immediately re-collapse, whether there exists a multi-verse in which our universe exists, what part does vacuum energy play in this all, etc, etc... Way too early to declare anything as set in stone in that regard.

Asking about a 'before' the Big bang is kinda like asking about an 'outside' the edge of the universe; neither exist(ed). The matter/energy of the universe created spacetime, by means of gravitational warping, and continue to create what it expands into.

Basic relativity theory.

248 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:14:04pm

re: #242 karmic_inquisitor

See- I knew there would be Lizards smarter than I who could explain it better.

249 hazzyday  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:14:20pm

re: #83 Salamantis

And did this being just set the universe in motion, so that the inexorable laws of cause and effect would result in the vast wheel and span of universal history, and the fine-grained chain of causation witnessed on Earth? Or does it dip its finger in now and then to magically and miraculously violate those universal laws? And if it was strong and smart enough to create the universe in the first place, why would it need to? And why would such a vast cosmic being be in the least bit concerned with a reproducing film of life on the surface of a small planet circling a nondescript star in one corner of one of millions of galaxies?

I 've read this as a form of intelligence decided to look in a mirror and created an image of this intelligence that assumed time and space and echoes. The fall is the mirrored image discovering itself. Sin is the thought process of the mirror that moves it away from the original image. The mirror has a desire to be reintegrated with wholeness. Science dedicated to wholeness in knowledge serves one purpose of the reintegration.

As humans we personify this as we are part of it.

250 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:14:56pm

re: #230 summergurl

From the review on Amazon

The six numbers are:

nu (a ratio of the strength of electrical forces that hold atoms together compared to the force of gravity which is 10 to the 37th power)

epsilon (how firmly the atomic nuclei bind together which is 0.004)

omega (amount of material in the universe)

lambda (force of cosmic "antigravity" discovered in 1998, which is a very small number)

Q (ratio of two fundamental energies, which is 1/100,000)

delta (number of spatial dimensions in our universe)

Thanks.

251 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:15:13pm

re: #240 slokat

After all, particle - anti-particle pairs are randomly popping into and out of existence in the quantum foam all the time, without rhyme, reason or cause.

This statement need some support...

thanks in advance

Not really...it's a scientific fact. A high energy gamma ray can spontaneously create a particle and an antiparticle pair. Google the term pair generation. Should give you all sorts of physicsy stuff.

252 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:15:22pm

re: #215 Wishing

Aha. The one I searched said "creatures that move along the ground" instead of "creeping thing" OK. Now I gotta go pull out the 1914 Latin Vulgate Bible in the other room. Hold on...

1:21 ..every living and moving creature
1:24 ..cattle and creeping things

253 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:16:02pm

re: #244 Sharmuta

I'm not suggesting anything- just trying to comment on the facts as I recall them. I didn't purchase the book, I borrowed it from the library, so I can't access it to refresh my memory or cite the author.

It is some interesting stuff. There is all sorts of interesting order in the universe.

254 UberInfidel67  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:16:12pm

Time to go...nite all

255 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:16:21pm

re: #253 BryanS

Indeed.

256 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:16:54pm

re: #237 USBeast

And would those microbes be wrong in investigating their origins?

No, that's what empirical science is doing, among many other things. But it has yet to find an iota of evidence for a creator deity, although it has found much evidence for evolution.

257 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:16:59pm

re: #246 The Shadow Do

I knew Alzado when he played for the Broncs. Truly a good guy. Frothing at the mouth and loaded with drugs on game day. Steroids killed him. He told everybody he could. No one listened. They still don't. Damn shame.

funny I lived in Denver when he came over and he was instantly loved at a time when Oakland was Denvers dire enemy...he was a beast and a character and good for the game and the league...I'm a league guy which is why I really hope he Cards win it all this week

258 swamprat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:17:01pm

re: #202 Mich-again

Let me break it down. The abridged version of creation in the Bible says thus, in chronological order..

The big bang, then light, land, water, sky, plants, fish, birds, land animals, and finally men.

Hello. When did all the bugs sneak in?

Is not permitted to notice such things!
Is definitely not permitted to teach such things in school!
But that is as it should be; we do not need to teach the mutual points of agreement between science and Buddhism, the Jain, Islam, Rosicrucians, Spiritualists, Rastafarians, or any other religions.

259 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:17:22pm

I know this.

Your time is short. Make the people around you happy. Any day you wake up is a good day.

260 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:17:54pm

re: #223 swamprat

Why we cannot truly know about god. Why we wouldn't recognize an alien artifact if we lived on a stack of them.

Sorry, I'm not a "cat person", and I made no mention of any "alien artifact".

261 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:18:56pm

re: #245 albusteve

so you saw God?...I'm envious...I've been a die hard fan since 1965...a long road...

Yes. I was living in Pa at the time and my step dad got us tickets to watch the game from the stadium restaurant. I had all my Cowboys shit on and my little brother and I decided to go down into the stadium to buy some hats & shirts. While we were in the elevator some guy turned and looked at me and said "You got guts kid."

262 SteveC  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:19:28pm

re: #246 The Shadow Do

I knew Alzado when he played for the Broncs. Truly a good guy. Frothing at the mouth and loaded with drugs on game day. Steroids killed him. He told everybody he could. No one listened. They still don't. Damn shame.

Steve Courson warned against steroids, also. He thought it had contributed to a heart problem that he had developed.

Steroid use didn't kill him... he was cutting down a tree and the wind took it in a direction he wasn't anticipating.

263 The Shadow Do  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:19:45pm

re: #257 albusteve

funny I lived in Denver when he came over and he was instantly loved at a time when Oakland was Denvers dire enemy...he was a beast and a character and good for the game and the league...I'm a league guy which is why I really hope he Cards win it all this week

My hopes are with the Cards Steve. As for Lyle, I have a little tear in my eye for the guy right now. Good, good guy.

264 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:20:00pm

re: #251 BryanS

Not really...it's a scientific fact. A high energy gamma ray can spontaneously create a particle and an antiparticle pair. Google the term pair generation. Should give you all sorts of physicsy stuff.

I think the correct term is Hawking radiation. Stephen Hawking first postulated this in some of his essays on black holes. I remember reading it in his book, "Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays".

/what can I say? I am also a science geek.

265 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:20:01pm

re: #259 Mich-again

I know this.

Your time is short. Make the people around you happy. Any day you wake up is a good day.

my exact sentiment...tomarrow you get another chance...use it well and maybe there will be another day after that...you never know

266 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:20:27pm

I have read only the OP, but the item that strikes me is the claim and lack of follow-up on the suggestion that "roughly" 40% of all members of AAAS are believers (in God), with the implication that "roughly" 40% of all scientists are the same.

First this leaves hanging the uncomfortable follow-up question why only 40%, when we are led to understand that 95% of the general population are believers. Without taking that further here, it is a difference of such magnitude that there has got to be a recognition that there is something of significance at play.

Secondly, as far as I can determine, anyone reading this can join AAAS and get a free one year subscription to Science magazine as thanks. (I'm not sure what the gift is for joining AAA or AA for that matter).

My point here is actually not to insult anyone, except the person making irrelevant arguments while pretending to make a point while simultaneously ignoring the implications of what they are actually saying.

267 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:20:43pm

re: #232 albusteve

oh big whoop...the Cowboys have kicked their ass plenty of times...and those two Supers in the 70's the Steelers were lucky to leave town in one piece and they knew it...go Cards!

I thhink the greatest football game I've ever seen was the 49ers vs Cowboys when Clark made the catch.. We were TDY in Alameda..I think I was working the reactor on the Enterprise and my wife was preggie..We watched that game and i swear this happened..when Clark made the catch I jumped up screaming and flipped the foot stoll in a high speed spin into the celing and it spun back and landed perfectly..Me and Mrs.hoopster yelled..Oh NO f'g way at the stoll and then looking at the TV.. no way! at the screen! Greatest catch of all time..The stoll agreed..greatest catch of all time..Surprised mama didn't go into labor then...

268 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:20:56pm

re: #253 BryanS

Also, for me personally, since I do believe in God- I suppose, yes. Just Six Numbers gave me the impression God had a plan and was brilliant in the execution of it. But that's me, and my personal spiritual beliefs mixing with science. Other may and will see it differently.

269 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:21:26pm

Hey y'all - are we still On Topic?

270 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:21:42pm

re: #240 slokat

After all, particle - anti-particle pairs are randomly popping into and out of existence in the quantum foam all the time, without rhyme, reason or cause.

This statement need some support...

thanks in advance

[Link: www.abarim-publications.com...]

271 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:21:50pm

re: #242 karmic_inquisitor

For some reason that triggered a thought about "Heat death/cold death" of the universe. Both have entropy driving everything further apart and less ordered. Life in the universe will have long since vanished.

Well, why I found the reference to that book interesting, is the fact that the TV show LOST is well known for weaving popular science literature into it's story line. Six numbers has been very important to one of the plot arcs, six numbers that predict the end of the world. If you can "adjust" one or more of the numbers, you can change the outcome of the future.

And I crossed referenced that book title with LOST forums, and I could not find any comments connected that book as a possible "seed" for one of the ideas in the show.

Interesting, because it sounds so much like the Valenzetti Equation, which is what the "numbers" are called on the show.

An interesting possibility for a LOST fan.

272 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:21:53pm

re: #269 realwest

Hey y'all - are we still On Topic?

Hell yEs!

273 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:06pm

re: #251 BryanS

Quantum foam is like the Ether of Space?

The sentence assumed things that aren't in the observation of "pair generation" as far as I've ever read about... was looking for a reference to back up the wording that was given, that's all.

I'm either learning something or challenging something, too soon in the discourse to make/change a belief, yet.

274 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:08pm
275 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:13pm

re: #269 realwest

Mostly on topic. Evening realwest. How are you doing tonight?

276 SteveC  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:13pm

re: #269 realwest

Hey y'all - are we still On Topic?

We tend to wander around a little bit, you know that!

277 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:40pm

re: #261 NJDhockeyfan

Yes. I was living in Pa at the time and my step dad got us tickets to watch the game from the stadium restaurant. I had all my Cowboys shit on and my little brother and I decided to go down into the stadium to buy some hats & shirts. While we were in the elevator some guy turned and looked at me and said "You got guts kid."

my buddies up in Philly absolutely refuse to guarantee my safety on the streets if I wear a Cboy cap...hahaha...brutal, just brutal up there...I believe it too...

278 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:41pm

re: #243 Wishing

snip: After all, particle - anti-particle pairs are randomly popping into and out of existence in the quantum foam all the time, without rhyme, reason or cause.

..that we can understand.

No, we're talking about randomness IN PRINCIPLE.

279 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:22:46pm

re: #272 Mich-again

Hell yEs!

280 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:24:06pm

re: #272 Mich-again

Hell yEs!

The DJ at the dance club I go to always plays that for me. He likes to make me boogie.

281 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:24:26pm

re: #247 Salamantis

Asking about a 'before' the Big bang is kinda like asking about an 'outside' the edge of the universe; neither exist(ed). The matter/energy of the universe created spacetime, by means of gravitational warping, and continue to create what it expands into.

Basic relativity theory.

If there was a previous universe which collapsed in a big crunch to singularity, then re-expanded into ours via a big bang then there was a "before" even if that "before" universe was just ours running backwards in time. It maybe that 'time' as we know it eternally flip-flops between a singularity point and a maximum expansion point. Or it may not be the case.

If there are multiple 4d-hyperspheroid (or some other 4 dimensional shape with a 3-dimensional "surface") universes within a 4 (or more) dimensional multi-verse, then "outside" also has a meaning as well even if its a little more convoluted.

282 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:24:37pm

re: #273 slokat

At one time there was phlogiston(sp?). Then space was a pure vaccum. About a decade ago, I think, a couple of scientists realized that the pure vaccum was full of particles and stuff. They tried coining the term neo-phlogiston. :)

283 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:24:37pm

re: #269 realwest

Hey y'all - are we still On Topic?

Sure..ah..what was the topic again?
*wink*

284 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:24:55pm

re: #277 albusteve

my buddies up in Philly absolutely refuse to guarantee my safety on the streets if I wear a Cboy cap...hahaha...brutal, just brutal up there...I believe it too...

Brutal? Do you know of any other stadiums with a built-in judge & jail?

LOL

285 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:25:55pm

re: #264 BlueCanuck

I think the correct term is Hawking radiation. Stephen Hawking first postulated this in some of his essays on black holes. I remember reading it in his book, "Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays".

/what can I say? I am also a science geek.

What Salamantis was referring to I think was this (pair generation ) . A high enough energy photon ( packet of light) can have it's energy converted into an electron ( the particle ) and a positron ( the anti-particle).

286 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:26:05pm

re: #278 Salamantis

No, we're talking about randomness IN PRINCIPLE.

My point is that there are things we think we do understand that we don't really understand, or that we only have taken a peek at so far. As we continue to dwell on this blue orb, we learn more and more, we understand more, but very little is actually carved in stone. Even what we thought we had down pat, turns out we didn't quite comprehend.

287 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:26:08pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

Beck is always good.

288 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:26:14pm

re: #274 Iron Fist

No one ever got out of life alive.


Hank III reminds me a lot of his peepaw.

289 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:26:34pm

re: #249 hazzyday

I 've read this as a form of intelligence decided to look in a mirror and created an image of this intelligence that assumed time and space and echoes. The fall is the mirrored image discovering itself. Sin is the thought process of the mirror that moves it away from the original image. The mirror has a desire to be reintegrated with wholeness. Science dedicated to wholeness in knowledge serves one purpose of the reintegration.

As humans we personify this as we are part of it.

Sounds like Hegel, who postulated that God immersed himself in the mindless material oblivion of the universe, and evolution is how God returns to self-awareness (his version of cosmic evolution pre-dated Darwin's biological version).

It also reminds me of guys who are born from a womb, and spend the rest of their lives trying to return to it...;~)

290 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:26:34pm

re: #267 HoosierHoops

I thhink the greatest football game I've ever seen was the 49ers vs Cowboys when Clark made the catch.. We were TDY in Alameda..I think I was working the reactor on the Enterprise and my wife was preggie..We watched that game and i swear this happened..when Clark made the catch I jumped up screaming and flipped the foot stoll in a high speed spin into the celing and it spun back and landed perfectly..Me and Mrs.hoopster yelled..Oh NO f'g way at the stoll and then looking at the TV.. no way! at the screen! Greatest catch of all time..The stoll agreed..greatest catch of all time..Surprised mama didn't go into labor then...

you're breakin my heart bro...I was there in TVland and remember it too well...White came right back up field when he fumbled the ball mid field on a huge hit from somebody...poor guy was concussed...I love football win or lose...Henderson was just within the grasp of Montana...history...we got even tho...ha!

291 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:26:38pm

there have been numerous comments on the blog stating that there is "not an iota of evidence for creation" - which makes me wonder then what evidence would be acceptable?

I have mentioned several times that there are two foundations for naturalism/evolutionism, which would be sufficient evidence to prove evolution (and conversely would falsify creation): that life would spontaneously appear from non-life, and that one species of any creature could spontaneously evolve into another species.

So what evidence of creation would be acceptable (and conversely would adequately falsify evolutionism)?

292 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:27:03pm

re: #285 BryanS

Yes, that's what it is. One of the methods that a black hole can "evaporate".

293 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:27:14pm

re: #279 Sharmuta

Lovin it. Saw that here first a long time ago...

294 the phantom  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:27:23pm

I don't believe in Santa Claus. Therefore, I do believe in non-Santa Clause.
To practice this act of faith, every Christmas eve, I place a tray of fresh non-cookies on the mantel, along with a tall glass of non-milk. In the morning, I observe that the non-cookies and non-milk are still there, thus affirming my faith in the existence of non-Santa Claus.

295 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:27:37pm

re: #269 realwest

Hey y'all - are we still On Topic?

Hey my friend! I think football has taken over the thread a little bit.

296 swamprat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:28:06pm

re: #260 USBeast

Cats are only an analogy; When you deal with something beyond comprehension, it is beyond comprehension. A cat, (or a squirrel) would not "do" a Rubik's cube. Nothing to do with cats, or squirrels, or even religion. It is a general principle that when people strive to understand a foreign concept, they can only understand it in their terms.( I couldn't find a picture of a buffalo working a crossword puzzle.)

297 rawmuse  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:28:09pm

re: #163 Salamantis

The working definition on this thread seems to be an intelligent and powerful being that created the universe.

He who says he knows, doesn't. He who admits he does not know, is at least, ready to learn.

298 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:28:44pm

re: #270 Salamantis

Thank You, hadn't realized that we had strayed into philosophy.

String theory + quantum foam = Silly String

299 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:28:58pm

re: #281 ArchangelMichael

If there was a previous universe which collapsed in a big crunch to singularity, then re-expanded into ours via a big bang then there was a "before" even if that "before" universe was just ours running backwards in time. It maybe that 'time' as we know it eternally flip-flops between a singularity point and a maximum expansion point. Or it may not be the case.

If there are multiple 4d-hyperspheroid (or some other 4 dimensional shape with a 3-dimensional "surface") universes within a 4 (or more) dimensional multi-verse, then "outside" also has a meaning as well even if its a little more convoluted.

The cyclic Bang-Crunch model is falling out of favor, although I like it for aesthetic reasons. But just as the farthest universal expansion would only occupy an infinitesimal moment before collapse set in, likewise, the cosmic egg between crunch and bang would occupy no period of spacetime.

300 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:29:16pm

re: #291 stretch

there have been numerous comments on the blog stating that there is "not an iota of evidence for creation" - which makes me wonder then what evidence would be acceptable?

I have mentioned several times that there are two foundations for naturalism/evolutionism, which would be sufficient evidence to prove evolution (and conversely would falsify creation): that life would spontaneously appear from non-life, and that one species of any creature could spontaneously evolve into another species.

So what evidence of creation would be acceptable (and conversely would adequately falsify evolutionism)?

Before we get started, could you supply a link to that statement "not an iota of evidence for creation" so I can read the context that it was stated in?

301 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:29:17pm

re: #268 Sharmuta

Also, for me personally, since I do believe in God- I suppose, yes. Just Six Numbers gave me the impression God had a plan and was brilliant in the execution of it. But that's me, and my personal spiritual beliefs mixing with science. Other may and will see it differently.

Why any atheist would want to take that belief away from you is beyond me. I don't see anything contradictory in your beliefs and the tenets of science. I am not sure why some atheists would ridicule you for your beliefs except to feel more secure in a "faith" that there is no god.

302 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:29:31pm

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

Brutal? Do you know of any other stadiums with a built-in judge & jail?

LOL

they killed Santa on national TV!...I asked my pals and they hey! fuck him, he was way too skinny for Santa!...don fucking bring no skinny Santa to Philly mfr...okayyy...holy shit!

303 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:29:32pm

re: #256 Salamantis

No, that's what empirical science is doing, among many other things. But it has yet to find an iota of evidence for a creator deity, although it has found much evidence for evolution.

I hope we are not misunderstanding each other. I do not "believe" in evolution in the same way that I do not "believe" in gravity. I accept both as proven facts. That both these phenomena exist does not disprove the existence of a creator.

304 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:29:51pm

re: #272 Mich-again
Ah, well then - just gonna mention I've put two links in the spinoff links; one about Blackwater being recalictrant about leaving Iraq and the other about Obama being incensed at the over $18 Billion that Wall Street Firms paid out in bonuses last year, not withing standing that President Barack Obama's comments came just one day after he surrounded himself with well-paid chief executives at the White House. He had pulled in those business leaders and hailed them for being on the "front lines in seeing the enormous problems in our economy right now."

The executives who appeared with Obama are not leaders of the Wall Street financial companies that the president targeted, but rather heads of such well-known manufacturing and technology giants as IBM, Motorola, Xerox and Corning. Still, they get paid handsomely.
Most of those who stood with Obama earned a total 2007 compensation package of between $8 million and $21 million, according to a review by The Associated Press. Those calculations include the executives' salary, bonus pay, incentives, perks, the estimated value of stock holdings and other compensation.

305 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:29:54pm

re: #278 Salamantis

No, we're talking about randomness IN PRINCIPLE.

Without randomness then the universe would be homogeneous and matter would never have "clumped". All particles would have moved away from each other without any gravitational attraction of any two overwhelming the attraction of all other particles. No stars. No planets. No galaxies Just an ever expanding ordered field.

306 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:30:15pm

re: #289 Salamantis

Sounds like Hegel, who postulated that God immersed himself in the mindless material oblivion of the universe, and evolution is how God returns to self-awareness (his version of cosmic evolution pre-dated Darwin's biological version).

It also reminds me of guys who are born from a womb, and spend the rest of their lives trying to return to it...;~)

Interesting, did not know what Hegel's shtick was. We skipped over Hegel to Kant in my Philosophy class in college but it sounds like Scott Adams stole that idea for God's Debris.

307 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:31:00pm

re: #291 stretch

one species of any creature could spontaneously evolve into another species.

First, I must ask if you understand what is meant my "species". Because creationists such as yourself usually misunderstand the term, and what you're really asking for is genus to genus transformation or family to family transformation. Do you fully understand what you're asking, because if you don't there is no point in answering you.

308 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:31:16pm

re: #275 BlueCanuck
Hey Blue! I'm doing ok - cold as heck though! You start your nighwatch early or am I that late?!

309 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:31:22pm

re: #289 Salamantis

It also reminds me of guys who are born from a womb, and spend the rest of their lives trying to return to it...;~)


You have stated something that I can agree with, unreservedly!

;)

310 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:31:52pm

re: #308 realwest

Day off. So I am still at home. Enjoying the discussion tonight that's for sure.

311 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:32:04pm

re: #290 albusteve

you're breakin my heart bro...I was there in TVland and remember it too well...White came right back up field when he fumbled the ball mid field on a huge hit from somebody...poor guy was concussed...I love football win or lose...Henderson was just within the grasp of Montana...history...we got even tho...ha!

LOL
Me and some buddies took the BART over to the City for the party Tuesday..
To this day..best street party of all time..Say what you will about the City...
They had a great football party that day...

312 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:32:06pm

re: #268 Sharmuta

Also, for me personally, since I do believe in God- I suppose, yes. Just Six Numbers gave me the impression God had a plan and was brilliant in the execution of it. But that's me, and my personal spiritual beliefs mixing with science. Other may and will see it differently.

Are you referencing Martin Rees?

I haven't read it, but I recall reading some thoughts on the subject from time to time. Mainly the impression I have is that what is typically missing from such speculation is the relationship between such numbers , whether six or other, meaning that what we don't know is what happens to the others if one or more were to be changed.

Things would be different for sure, but there is basis for saying that everything would fail and it is unreasonable to suggest that all these factors, that we define as significant, are totally independent of each other. It would seem much more reasonable to think that they are just particular measurements on a specific, not necessarily unique, universe/space-time-continuum/whatever.

As to what we are, there is a simple anthropic reason for that.

313 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:00pm

re: #294 the phantom

cookies & milk can actually be the same experiment, plus easier to find...

/

314 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:18pm

re: #312 Naso Tang

Yes- that's the author I'm discussing.

315 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:22pm

re: #300 Walter L. Newton

Before we get started, could you supply a link to that statement "not an iota of evidence for creation" so I can read the context that it was stated in?

Sure, looks like there was one just a litte while ago on this thread: #256:

"No, that's what empirical science is doing, among many other things. But it has yet to find an iota of evidence for a creator deity, although it has found much evidence for evolution"

316 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:24pm

Crap. That should be NO BASIS.

317 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:37pm

re: #283 HoosierHoops
Hi ya Hoops - topic is When Scientists Debate Theology.

318 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:44pm

re: #291 stretch

there have been numerous comments on the blog stating that there is "not an iota of evidence for creation" - which makes me wonder then what evidence would be acceptable?

I have mentioned several times that there are two foundations for naturalism/evolutionism, which would be sufficient evidence to prove evolution (and conversely would falsify creation): that life would spontaneously appear from non-life, and that one species of any creature could spontaneously evolve into another species.

So what evidence of creation would be acceptable (and conversely would adequately falsify evolutionism)?

Well, finding rabbit fossils in precambrian strata is the classic example.

319 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:33:48pm

re: #294 the phantom

I don't believe in Santa Claus. Therefore, I do believe in non-Santa Clause.
To practice this act of faith, every Christmas eve, I place a tray of fresh non-cookies on the mantel, along with a tall glass of non-milk. In the morning, I observe that the non-cookies and non-milk are still there, thus affirming my faith in the existence of non-Santa Claus.

There is no Santa Claus?
*runs screaming*

320 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:34:31pm

re: #304 realwest

I think his statements today are intended to stoke irrational reactions in order to undermine the freedom of markets (we don't have any free markets except in the illegal sale of drugs). All part of asserting more state control which will lead to conditions that will be exploited to impose yet more state control.

321 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:34:32pm

re: #296 swamprat

Cats are only an analogy; When you deal with something beyond comprehension, it is beyond comprehension. A cat, (or a squirrel) would not "do" a Rubik's cube. Nothing to do with cats, or squirrels, or even religion. It is a general principle that when people strive to understand a foreign concept, they can only understand it in their terms.( I couldn't find a picture of a buffalo working a crossword puzzle.)

Uh, I sorta got that.
/

322 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:34:56pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

The DJ at the dance club I go to always plays that for me.

Back in the day I used to teach robot paths at work. But my robots couldn't dance. Sometimes they did slam dance into each other which was never good. Funny how a servo motor clicking off sounds the same as one clicking back on. And sometimes you stand there and hit the reset button 20 times and its click, click click click click click aw c'mon mutherfugger reset bitch!

323 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:35:42pm

Well. I'm boiling some eggs. What are y'all doing?

324 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:35:44pm

re: #307 Sharmuta

First, I must ask if you understand what is meant my "species". Because creationists such as yourself usually misunderstand the term, and what you're really asking for is genus to genus transformation or family to family transformation. Do you fully understand what you're asking, because if you don't there is no point in answering you.

Whatever - pick a creature that has proven to evolve into a different kind of creature. Like e-coli evolving into e-coli, or fruit flys evolving into fruit flys. Something like that.

325 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:35:55pm

re: #298 slokat

Thank You, hadn't realized that we had strayed into philosophy.

String theory + quantum foam = Silly String

I'm not a fan of string 'theory'. I suspect that the LHC will find the Higgs Boson, and validate Garrett Lisi's GUTOE.

326 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:36:29pm

re: #311 HoosierHoops

LOL
Me and some buddies took the BART over to the City for the party Tuesday..
To this day..best street party of all time..Say what you will about the City...
They had a great football party that day...


hey they deserved it...not like the 95 championship where the Cboys were flat out robbed...fucking theives!...great rivalry for a while tho but we were obviously the better team that day...

327 CynicalConservative  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:36:47pm

re: #323 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well. I'm boiling some eggs. What are y'all doing?

Popcorn. Watching the thread develop now that our guest presenter has arrived.

328 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:36:54pm

Good evening lizards. I just went and fired my Kimber for the first time tonight. It was great.

329 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:37:28pm

re: #310 BlueCanuck
Hey, congrats on the day off and on your enjoying the conversation!

330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:37:33pm

re: #297 rawmuse

Hey Raw!

331 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:37:51pm

re: #322 Mich-again

Funny. The DJ usually follows the Beck with some Beastie Boys, and if that's not a great mutherfugger follow up, what is? I won't link Intergalactic [robot singing], but I am going to play it now on my end.

332 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:11pm

Here's a good stickum story...

... “I’m a changed man,” Lester Hayes says. “I have been released from the darkness of hate.”

He was baptized last Sunday. He spends his days either signing autographs for a charity organization or watching vein-popping pastors on the television.

He met his new girlfriend in a Wal-Mart. In Modesto. He lives there. He drives her daughter to Girl Scouts and dance class there.

Sorry, but these Raiders are going to have do it on their own.

“‘Well … ” Hayes says softly.

OK, OK, there is this one thing.

It’s a 10-ounce jar. It’s located in a storage box in the deepest, darkest part of Lester Hayes’ home.

A jar of stickum.

“The last jar of stickum on earth,” Hayes says solemnly.

You remember stickum. It was the gooey substance that Hayes lathered on his arms and hands, helping him intercept passes and steer receivers during his 10-year Raider career.

Stickum gave the Raiders such an advantage, it was outlawed after their 1981 Super Bowl victory.

One remaining jar. In the hands of a changed man.

“I never look at it, I never touch it,” Hayes says. “That was my past. I’m beyond that now.”

Fine. But just for argument’s sake, what if Al Davis asks you for that jar before today’s game?

“What?” he says.

What if your Raider godfather asks for one last favor, just a little one, 10 ounces that could help his defense stop the Ravens.

“I don’t think he would ask,” Hayes says.

But what if he does? What if he decides that to ensure safe passage into a new era, his team must first drag its toes through a delicious bit of its past.

Well?

Hayes pauses. And pauses.

Amid the silence, you can almost hear it. The rustling of a silver-and-black shirt. The snapping of an eye-patched helmet. A thwap of a forearm shiver.

You interrupt the pause by repeating the question.

Would you give Al Davis that stickum?

“Well, mmm … yes, of course I would give it to him,” Lester Hayes says. “Remember, there are no rules if you don’t get caught. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.”

...

“Without stickum, I couldn’t catch a cold in Antarctica,” Lester Hayes asks. “Do you know I once intercepted a pass with one thumb. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!”

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:17pm

re: #327 CynicalConservative

Popcorn. Watching the thread develop now that our guest presenter has arrived.

Who's that?

334 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:25pm

re: #306 ArchangelMichael

Interesting, did not know what Hegel's shtick was. We skipped over Hegel to Kant in my Philosophy class in college but it sounds like Scott Adams stole that idea for God's Debris.

Umm...Kant preceded Hegel.

335 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:27pm

re: #328 bellamags

Good evening lizards. I just went and fired my Kimber for the first time tonight. It was great.

Ok we need the picture too. Link please?

336 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:27pm

re: #324 stretch

Whatever - pick a creature that has proven to evolve into a different kind of creature. Like e-coli evolving into e-coli, or fruit flys evolving into fruit flys. Something like that.

See- you prove with this comment you don't understand what is meant by "species".

337 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:31pm

re: #323 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well. I'm boiling some eggs. What are y'all doing?

Fixin' to go to bed and get up and do it again.

You ain't gonna eat them eggs is you, Vegitarian?

338 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:42pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

It's an interesting thought since I am a sort of fan (my wife is addicted, so I have to be). However, as I may have mentioned, I thought relatively early on that time travel was involved, although I am now speculating that it is more of probability travel, which fits with what you say.

339 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:51pm

re: #318 Salamantis

Well, finding rabbit fossils in precambrian strata is the classic example.

I've heard this put forward as a possibility, but as falsfication would not be repeatable or verifiable. And of course the claims of "upthrusts" would be made, or inversion of strata.
I seem to recall that some fossils have been found 'out of place' in various types of strata.

340 CynicalConservative  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:55pm

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who's that?

stretch

341 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:38:55pm

re: #315 stretch

Sure, looks like there was one just a litte while ago on this thread: #256:

"No, that's what empirical science is doing, among many other things. But it has yet to find an iota of evidence for a creator deity, although it has found much evidence for evolution"

Thanks for that reference, which brings me to the point that you "massaged" what was said to make it fit your question.

The original statement is in regards to empirical science, the commenter already told you what evidence would be acceptable to him/her. Scientific evidence.

So why did you ask?

342 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:39:14pm

re: #325 Salamantis

I'm not a fan of string 'theory'. I suspect that the LHC will find the Higgs Boson, and validate Garrett Lisi's GUTOE.

String theory does seem to border on string faith.

343 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:39:15pm

re: #317 realwest

Hi ya Hoops - topic is When Scientists Debate Theology.

I have had a deep heart today rw..I read your post this morning.
I want you to know I am rooting for you and praying for you.
I don't have any other words to say right now..and you know i talk alot..
REALWEST

344 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:39:45pm

re: #339 stretch

Your ignorance of science is astounding!

345 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:39:47pm

re: #332 NJDhockeyfan

Here's a good stickum story...

good catch...Hayes could hit you into next week...jus sayin

346 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:39:48pm

re: #324 stretch

Whatever - pick a creature that has proven to evolve into a different kind of creature. Like e-coli evolving into e-coli, or fruit flys evolving into fruit flys. Something like that.

How about the evolution of horses? We have fossil record of many types of animal from steadily more recent times and looking more and more like modern horses. What would you call that, if not evolution?

347 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:39:55pm

re: #328 bellamags

Good evening lizards. I just went and fired my Kimber for the first time tonight. It was great.

Do you know what I want for Christmas...

348 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:40:07pm

re: #332 NJDhockeyfan

I happen to know (to my absolute and total surprise and delight) an Arizona Cardinal fan.

Found that out tonight.

Thought they really did not exist. But, they appear to exist.

349 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:40:43pm

re: #337 USBeast

Fixin' to go to bed and get up and do it again.

You ain't gonna eat them eggs is you, Vegitarian?

Not a Vegan. Who are you to judge? Jon Lovitz?

350 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:41:07pm

re: #344 Sharmuta

Your ignorance of science is astounding!

And his/her trying to set up a straw man is not very clever.

351 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:41:36pm

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

Do you know what I want for Christmas...

what do you want for Christmas, Walter?

352 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:41:37pm

re: #331 Sharmuta

Intergalactic [robot singing],


Intergalactic Planetary Planetary Intergalactic..

Now when it comes to envy y'all is green

353 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:41:49pm

re: #320 karmic_inquisitor
Well, as I stuck into the spinoff links, that he stood with executives of firms each of whom made a more than handsome income in 2007, and with his "Who me?" Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner there as well, sorta shows that it's just really more of the same Democratic Mantra "We got ours, to hell with you!".

354 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:12pm

re: #351 bellamags

what do you want for Christmas, Walter?

Kimber.

355 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:12pm

re: #352 Mich-again

OK- you're making me!

356 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:24pm

re: #299 Salamantis

The cyclic Bang-Crunch model is falling out of favor, although I like it for aesthetic reasons. But just as the farthest universal expansion would only occupy an infinitesimal moment before collapse set in, likewise, the cosmic egg between crunch and bang would occupy no period of spacetime.

I would agree that would be the case if there was no multi-verse, unless the big bang itself not only created our universe but all others as well and the higher dimensions in which they exist. If there is only one universe, and the cyclical bang-crunch model is not correct, then talking about 'before' and 'outside' are meaningless.

But my point was that we are so far from remotely knowing the truths about these conjectures and we may never know. We can never "see" back past the singularity to know for certain. Its possible the universe did have a creator or cause of some kind. Its also possible it is just one hell of a vacuum fluctuation. Either position is equally valid in my opinion, and proof or disproof of either position is equally impossible.

357 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:27pm

re: #336 Sharmuta

See- you prove with this comment you don't understand what is meant by "species".

okay - here's one from Wiki that looks pretty good:

"In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, more precise or differing measures are often used, such as based on similarity of DNA or morphology. Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into subspecies"

Now, back to the question: what evidence for creation would be acceptable (to substantiate the claim that not an iota of evidence for creation has been found).

358 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:38pm

re: #315 stretch

Sure, looks like there was one just a litte while ago on this thread: #256:

"No, that's what empirical science is doing, among many other things. But it has yet to find an iota of evidence for a creator deity, although it has found much evidence for evolution"

That is a true statement. But the lack of empirical evidence for a creator deity does not imply the nonexistence of the Universe around us, which creationists like you would refer to as the Creation. We all agree that it is here, it's just that some of us believe that it was caused by an intelligent powerful entity, and others beg to differ.

359 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:57pm

re: #354 Walter L. Newton

Kimber.

good answer...dont we all...

360 DrCruel  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:42:58pm

Once upon a time, I was told that Marxist theory had explained the economic universe. There was no longer any need to tolerate any opposing views - Marxism was scientific, and therefore irrefutable.

I am a Catholic, yet have no trouble accepting evolutionary theory as a valuable means of analyzing the historical biological record. I do not think the "fallen angel" and "slain dragon" postulates for dinosaur bones are nearly as useful. But I do not see why it is so integral to the continuation of our civilized society to destroy any institution or person that dares to postulate a conscious purpose to the universe. Nor do I see why children ought to be so carefully guarded from such ideas, when they are otherwise (for example) cheerfully introduced to concepts such as the benefits of socialism or the coming global warming apocalypse (caused by rapacious business interests), with barely a peep heard in protest by comparison.

I can understand the need not to spend time in the schools frivilously. I am an advocate for school vouchers, in part, to so promote efficient schools and schooling. I do not understand nearly so well why some subjective beliefs deserve a great deal of time and consideration in teh schools, while others must be fought tooth and nail. For my part, I would just as well not spend a great deal of time on either evolutionary theory or comparative creation mythology and mysticism - I would expect the time would be better spent to ensure that students in high school can read, can do simple mathematical calculations, know the basic form of their federal, state and local government, have at least a passing knowledge of the geography of their world, and so on.

Are there those that resent a "creeping Christian mysticism" in the classroom? We existed as a nation for some time, with a great deal more religion in our schools than we have at present, and seem to have managed all teh better for it. I am more concerned with evangelical atheists using evolution as a weapon to justify the deliberate extinguishing of religious faith amongst the general public, starting with deliberate indoctrination in the schools. Many, albeit not all, of those so involved have an unspoken Left-wing agenda behind their zeal as well.

It is a simple matter to mention that there are plenty of religious explanations for the creation of the universe, that some believe that a higher power was behind the business, but that for the purposes of science it is more efficacious to consider the rise and development of life on the planet in terms of evolutionary theory, demonstrate such, then go on from there. As for this anti-Christian hysteria, allow me to remind that freedom of religion likewise includes not having to endure the constant pontification and preaching of atheist fanatics - to include the confines of a biology class.

361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:43:15pm

Just spent an evening drinking with four cigar chomping manly men. One was a moonbat (to the extreme) lib. Three were hard core conservatives. Guess which one was the sponge.

I'll give you a couple of guesses.

362 nyc redneck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:43:26pm

re: #288 Mich-again

Hank III reminds me a lot of his peepaw.

i love III and i love senior but i really love junior

363 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:44:12pm

re: #341 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for that reference, which brings me to the point that you "massaged" what was said to make it fit your question.

The original statement is in regards to empirical science, the commenter already told you what evidence would be acceptable to him/her. Scientific evidence.

So why did you ask?

I'd rather not review all the threads, but the claim has been made here that 'not an iota' of evidence has been found for creation/creator or whatever. I'm merely asking if anyone would care to speculate on what would consitute 'evidence for creation'.

364 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:44:28pm

re: #334 Salamantis

The book wasn't in chronological order.

365 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:44:58pm

re: #362 nyc redneck

i love III and i love senior but i really love junior

It's a family tradition.

I have loved some women, and I have loved Jim Beam
Both of them tried to kill me
In 1973

366 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:45:10pm

re: #328 bellamags

Good evening lizards. I just went and fired my Kimber for the first time tonight. It was great.

Kimber was my favorite girlfriend, I always look back with fondness.

...wait, is this evolving into a boobie thread or a gun thread?

367 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:45:18pm

re: #335 Wishing

Ok we need the picture too. Link please?

re: #354 Walter L. Newton

Kimber.

LOL. i remember. i wish i could send you one. The .38 special i was firing was a lot easier to shoot. It was an old gun, from the 1960's. but it was sweet.

368 Racer X  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:45:21pm

I stink, therefore I am.

369 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:45:26pm

re: #328 bellamags

Good evening lizards. I just went and fired my Kimber for the first time tonight. It was great.

I was browsing in an enormous sporting store in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. I've got a couple of rifles but keep thinking I'd like a handgun too, but the choices are overwhelming. Why did you pick a Kimber?

370 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:45:50pm

re: #360 DrCruel

I do not understand nearly so well why some subjective beliefs deserve a great deal of time and consideration in teh schools, while others must be fought tooth and nail. For my part, I would just as well not spend a great deal of time on either evolutionary theory or comparative creation mythology and mysticism -

Them's fighting words here I believe.

I wouldn't call evolution a "subjective" belief.

371 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:06pm

re: #360 DrCruel

Once upon a time, I was told that Marxist theory had explained the economic universe. There was no longer any need to tolerate any opposing views - Marxism was scientific, and therefore irrefutable.

I am a Catholic, yet have no trouble accepting evolutionary theory as a valuable means of analyzing the historical biological record. I do not think the "fallen angel" and "slain dragon" postulates for dinosaur bones are nearly as useful. But I do not see why it is so integral to the continuation of our civilized society to destroy any institution or person that dares to postulate a conscious purpose to the universe. Nor do I see why children ought to be so carefully guarded from such ideas, when they are otherwise (for example) cheerfully introduced to concepts such as the benefits of socialism or the coming global warming apocalypse (caused by rapacious business interests), with barely a peep heard in protest by comparison.

I can understand the need not to spend time in the schools frivilously. I am an advocate for school vouchers, in part, to so promote efficient schools and schooling. I do not understand nearly so well why some subjective beliefs deserve a great deal of time and consideration in teh schools, while others must be fought tooth and nail. For my part, I would just as well not spend a great deal of time on either evolutionary theory or comparative creation mythology and mysticism - I would expect the time would be better spent to ensure that students in high school can read, can do simple mathematical calculations, know the basic form of their federal, state and local government, have at least a passing knowledge of the geography of their world, and so on.

Are there those that resent a "creeping Christian mysticism" in the classroom? We existed as a nation for some time, with a great deal more religion in our schools than we have at present, and seem to have managed all teh better for it. I am more concerned with evangelical atheists using evolution as a weapon to justify the deliberate extinguishing of religious faith amongst the general public, starting with deliberate indoctrination in the schools. Many, albeit not all, of those so involved have an unspoken Left-wing agenda behind their zeal as well.

It is a simple matter to mention that there are plenty of religious explanations for the creation of the universe, that some believe that a higher power was behind the business, but that for the purposes of science it is more efficacious to consider the rise and development of life on the planet in terms of evolutionary theory, demonstrate such, then go on from there. As for this anti-Christian hysteria, allow me to remind that freedom of religion likewise includes not having to endure the constant pontification and preaching of atheist fanatics - to include the confines of a biology class.


well said - and worth quoting in its entirety

372 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:11pm

re: #360 DrCruel

Are there those that resent a "creeping Christian mysticism" in the classroom?

The Constitution resents any creeping religious anything in the publicly sponsored sector.

373 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:15pm

re: #324 stretch

Whatever - pick a creature that has proven to evolve into a different kind of creature. Like e-coli evolving into e-coli, or fruit flys evolving into fruit flys. Something like that.

What about ancient hominids evolutionarily diverging into humans and great apes, as conclusively demonstrated by all those shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences embedded in the identical sites in our respective genomes?

374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:29pm

re: #360 DrCruel

I do not think the "fallen angel" and "slain dragon" postulates for dinosaur bones are nearly as useful.

You've heard that too? I have only heard it from one other person in my existence. Thought this wonderful man had lost his frakkin' mind!

Really? You've heard this?

375 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:45pm

re: #367 bellamags

LOL. i remember. i wish i could send you one. The .38 special i was firing was a lot easier to shoot. It was an old gun, from the 1960's. but it was sweet.

OK well I guess we will have to let you off the hook this time.
Rummaging around google links will oftentimes get you the pic, even of old guns.

376 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:53pm

re: #357 stretch

What about my question, stretch? I asked you how you explain the evidence that to my eyes points to the evolution of horses. I'm not saying GAZE or down dinging you, but I would ask you to respond.
re: #346 Dark_Falcon

How about the evolution of horses? We have fossil record of many types of animal from steadily more recent times and looking more and more like modern horses. What would you call that, if not evolution?

377 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:54pm

re: #363 stretch

I'd rather not review all the threads, but the claim has been made here that 'not an iota' of evidence has been found for creation/creator or whatever. I'm merely asking if anyone would care to speculate on what would consitute 'evidence for creation'.

I answered you... scientific evidence.

378 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:56pm

re: #343 HoosierHoops
Ah, thanks Hoops. But it's sorta like what my bro' Iron Fist said above: if there is one truism in life, it's that no one gets out alive. With realwest's corollary that no one (or hardly no one) thinks it's their time to go when they do go!
But I do appreciate your feelings - but I intend to stick around as long as God (apologies to Atheists and Agnostics out here) allows me too.

379 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #349 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not a Vegan. Who are you to judge? Jon Lovitz?

Ain't judgin' nothin', unless you over cook 'em.

380 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:47:22pm

re: #369 Naso Tang

I was browsing in an enormous sporting store in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. I've got a couple of rifles but keep thinking I'd like a handgun too, but the choices are overwhelming. Why did you pick a Kimber?

the Cadillac of hand guns...bar none

381 swamprat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:47:34pm

Actually we do have evidence of specie to specie transformation...but only when the genome reduces. I'm talking about the robertshaw contraction in humans. When (or if) the DNA increases; we have a new specie. Unless you have the parents DNA and the offspring, you can't prove specie change.( Precisely because it is a different "animal", as it were.) But sometimes there is a contraction in the DNA; the evidence in that case is clear, and there is such a contraction (you might call it a "fold") in the makeup of human DNA. Charles linked to this in before, but it was as part of a trial. So, while evolution points to an increase in DNA count, as an aside it seems to be able to prove evolution in the decrease of the genome.

Be patient with me lizards, it is late and I am working from memory.

382 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:47:43pm

re: #369 Naso Tang

I was browsing in an enormous sporting store in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. I've got a couple of rifles but keep thinking I'd like a handgun too, but the choices are overwhelming. Why did you pick a Kimber?

i received it as a gift, but i knew of their reputation from reading the posts on LGF. it is a sweet gun but it will take some getting used to. its very precise.

383 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:47:54pm

re: #374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You've heard that too? I have only heard it from one other person in my existence. Thought this wonderful man had lost his frakkin' mind!

Really? You've heard this?

Goodness, FBV, the Chinese have been grinding up "dragon bones" for centuries as an aphrodisiac/snake oil cure.

384 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:48:20pm

Fodder for discussion, Pascal's Wager. Wikipedia summary only. The source can be found here: Pensees

In very simplistic terms: if there is no G-d, yet you believe, you lose nothing comparable to if there is a G-d and you do not believe. Lots of sticking points regarding believing for believing sake. G-d's reward system, etc.

Also, Roman Catholicism and Evolution are compatible:

As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery

385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:48:36pm

re: #357 stretch

You seem to enjoy being disliked. That illustrates a problem.

Maybe that's just me.

386 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:02pm

re: #362 nyc redneck

i love III and i love senior but i really love junior

They are all good but neither Jr. nor III can hold a candle to Hank.

To me, Hank Williams was THE greatest American influence on music. There is before Hank and after Hank.

387 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:02pm

re: #382 bellamags

Oops. I wasn't paying close attention. I was think a "Kindle" or what ever that Amazon toy is called. Sorry. Really. I wasn't asking for a gun, I don't like guns.

388 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:05pm

re: #339 stretch

I've heard this put forward as a possibility, but as falsfication would not be repeatable or verifiable. And of course the claims of "upthrusts" would be made, or inversion of strata.
I seem to recall that some fossils have been found 'out of place' in various types of strata.

Sure it would. Al you'd have to do would be to find two of them, and to videotape their excavation.

And no, fossils have not been found outside the strata that formed while the species in question existed. That's kinda the point.

389 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:10pm

re: #155 Syrah

I don't know about that. I think that there must be a Gun equivalent of Godwin's law, that similar to its better know cousin states that as a threaded forum discussion grows longer, the probability of a gun thread developing approaches one.

one.

390 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:12pm

re: #363 stretch

Paul's evocation of the beauty and order in the natural world in the Christian New Testament is his argument for a Creator G-d. That's not a scientific argument, however, but a theological one.

In defense of Paul, science hadn't yet been invented when he wrote.

391 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:12pm

re: #351 bellamags

what do you want for Christmas, Walter?

{Bella} I don't know what he wants..( and really afraid to ask)
Want he needs is a good woman to fall in head over f*cking heels in love with..LOL
Then watch his posts change..He'll be posting TMZ links all day long..
/Hi Walter..teasing ya

392 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:30pm

re: #360 DrCruel

But I do not see why it is so integral to the continuation of our civilized society to destroy any institution or person that dares to postulate a conscious purpose to the universe. Nor do I see why children ought to be so carefully guarded from such ideas, when they are otherwise (for example) cheerfully introduced to concepts such as the benefits of socialism or the coming global warming apocalypse (caused by rapacious business interests), with barely a peep heard in protest by comparison.

No one is "destroying" these institutions. Everyone is free to go to the religious institution of their choice as well as teach their child the tenants of that faith.

The issue is teaching religion as science and doing it with tax payer money in violation of the First Amendment.

393 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:48pm

re: #387 Walter L. Newton

Oops. I wasn't paying close attention. I was think a "Kindle" or what ever that Amazon toy is called. Sorry. Really. I wasn't asking for a gun, I don't like guns.

S'OK, those are cool, too.

394 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:09pm

re: #344 Sharmuta

Your ignorance of science is astounding!

It's willful.

395 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:17pm

re: #363 stretch

I'd rather not review all the threads, but the claim has been made here that 'not an iota' of evidence has been found for creation/creator or whatever. I'm merely asking if anyone would care to speculate on what would consitute 'evidence for creation'.

Hi Stretch,

Evidence for creation would be no unnecessary starts or billions of galaxies either. Just the earth with nice weather, 12 vegetables and fruits and some animals to feel superior to and to eat, and a loud voice in the sky every now and then when too much fornication was going on.

396 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:20pm

re: #375 Wishing

OK well I guess we will have to let you off the hook this time.
Rummaging around google links will oftentimes get you the pic, even of old guns.

I was actually looking for a pic when i double posted my response to you as well as Walter, so here it is Kimber

397 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:26pm

re: #385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You seem to enjoy being disliked. That illustrates a problem.

Maybe that's just me.

he's debating the subject...what's the problem?

398 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:27pm

re: #384 celtic templar

Fodder for discussion, Pascal's Wager. Wikipedia summary only. The source can be found here: Pensees

In very simplistic terms: if there is no G-d, yet you believe, you lose nothing comparable to if there is a G-d and you do not believe. Lots of sticking points regarding believing for believing sake. G-d's reward system, etc.

Also, Roman Catholicism and Evolution are compatible:

Fear as a means of persuasion is the instrument of a tyrant.

399 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:38pm

re: #385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You seem to enjoy being disliked. That illustrates a problem. Maybe that's just me.

LOL (which I think is the problem).

400 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:51:16pm

my typing is going to hell tonight. How's my logic?

401 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:51:24pm

re: #394 Salamantis

It's willful.

I know.

402 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:51:35pm

I guess I should add that atheism is a belief system every bit as reliant upon faith (that there is no G-d) as any religion.

403 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:51:46pm

re: #353 realwest

Well, as I stuck into the spinoff links, that he stood with executives of firms each of whom made a more than handsome income in 2007, and with his "Who me?" Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner there as well, sorta shows that it's just really more of the same Democratic Mantra "We got ours, to hell with you!".

Well it ends up like the way they run things in Europe (and pretty much all urban Democrats have Euro-envy). If you want to start a business and it is anything more than a sandwich cart, you go to the government. They issue you permits after you jump through enough hoops including your capitalization plan. You hope that you know some people in one of the many state owned or state subsidized businesses. If you are lucky you might have a friend from college that is a manager in such a firm and might be able to get you a contract. You then set about trying to build a business and establish a reputation. When you hire employees you have to give them an employment contract. If the employee ends up being a dud you are stuck - if you want to fire them you usually have to pay them a year's salary on the spot. Then there are all of the taxes.

But when you find yourself in such an environment you adapt as best you can and try to get by. But radical innovations rarely occur and new industries rarely pop up - that is what America is for.

404 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:52:22pm

re: #391 HoosierHoops

{Hoops} how are you tonight? I hope things are cool. Still want to go to the jazz bar?

405 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:52:44pm

re: #373 Salamantis

What about ancient hominids evolutionarily diverging into humans and great apes, as conclusively demonstrated by all those shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences embedded in the identical sites in our respective genomes?

as far as retroviral DNA sequences, it appears that the matching sites don't always give the same phylogeny - i.e. sometimes the retrovirus says apes first, then humans, then chimps, other times the retroviral sequences give an entirely different phylogeny. Hardly conclusive, I would say.

406 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:52:49pm

re: #392 Sharmuta

No one is "destroying" these institutions. Everyone is free to go to the religious institution of their choice as well as teach their child the tenants of that faith.

The issue is teaching religion as science and doing it with tax payer money in violation of the First Amendment.

He has a partial point, Shar. There are people in this country out to destroy religious institutions, though they tend not to post here. That said, the solution to that problem is better oversight, not mandating the teaching of religious viewpoints in school. You don't counter a wrong by committing another wrong.

407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:52:58pm

re: #383 OldLineTexan

Damn Texans!
/
I knew a guy who said (defending creationism) that the bones of dinosaurs were those of the angels cast out of Heaven with Satan.

Thought it was nuts! But I still love that guy. He is a loon! But I love him dearly. He's a good friend.

But, as a Christian, and a person with a mind...I can't help but look at him differently.

408 Miles Smit  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:53:01pm

The relevance of a debate about reconciling science and religion, in my view, is nil absent what I would call impertinence on both sides: scientists attempting to assert a metaphysics or world-view from science, and religious authority attempting to arrogate scientific credibility. Science does not need, and cannot sustain, religious authority. Religion does not need, and is inimical to, the falsifying, empirical path to building hypothetical confidence.

409 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:53:06pm

re: #378 realwest

Stick around a little longer than that and when God asks, blame me for telling you to...

/no sarc

410 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:53:14pm

re: #396 bellamags

I was actually looking for a pic when i double posted my response to you as well as Walter, so here it is Kimber

Well you didnt say it was a 1911! Those always look the same! LOL

411 golly_wog  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:53:24pm

Scientific proof? If the genetic code actually spells out "Burma Shave".

Meanwhile, what does the butterfly know of its life as a worm?

/

412 Maximu§  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:53:41pm

re: #360 DrCruel

Once upon a time, I was told that Marxist theory had explained the economic universe. There was no longer any need to tolerate any opposing views - Marxism was scientific, and therefore irrefutable.

I am a Catholic, yet have no trouble accepting evolutionary theory as a valuable means of analyzing the historical biological record. I do not think the "fallen angel" and "slain dragon" postulates for dinosaur bones are nearly as useful. But I do not see why it is so integral to the continuation of our civilized society to destroy any institution or person that dares to postulate a conscious purpose to the universe. Nor do I see why children ought to be so carefully guarded from such ideas, when they are otherwise (for example) cheerfully introduced to concepts such as the benefits of socialism or the coming global warming apocalypse (caused by rapacious business interests), with barely a peep heard in protest by comparison.

I can understand the need not to spend time in the schools frivilously. I am an advocate for school vouchers, in part, to so promote efficient schools and schooling. I do not understand nearly so well why some subjective beliefs deserve a great deal of time and consideration in teh schools, while others must be fought tooth and nail. For my part, I would just as well not spend a great deal of time on either evolutionary theory or comparative creation mythology and mysticism - I would expect the time would be better spent to ensure that students in high school can read, can do simple mathematical calculations, know the basic form of their federal, state and local government, have at least a passing knowledge of the geography of their world, and so on.

Are there those that resent a "creeping Christian mysticism" in the classroom? We existed as a nation for some time, with a great deal more religion in our schools than we have at present, and seem to have managed all teh better for it. I am more concerned with evangelical atheists using evolution as a weapon to justify the deliberate extinguishing of religious faith amongst the general public, starting with deliberate indoctrination in the schools. Many, albeit not all, of those so involved have an unspoken Left-wing agenda behind their zeal as well.

It is a simple matter to mention that there are plenty of religious explanations for the creation of the universe, that some believe that a higher power was behind the business, but that for the purposes of science it is more efficacious to consider the rise and development of life on the planet in terms of evolutionary theory, demonstrate such, then go on from there. As for this anti-Christian hysteria, allow me to remind that freedom of religion likewise includes not having to endure the constant pontification and preaching of atheist fanatics - to include the confines of a biology class.

Well said Doc!

413 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:54:03pm

re: #392 Sharmuta

No one is "destroying" these institutions. Everyone is free to go to the religious institution of their choice as well as teach their child the tenants of that faith.

The issue is teaching religion as science and doing it with tax payer money in violation of the First Amendment.

I agree, but of course I would say that the religion supported by tax payer money is the dogma of evolutionism.

414 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:54:07pm

re: #390 quickjustice

Paul's evocation of the beauty and order in the natural world in the Christian New Testament is his argument for a Creator G-d. That's not a scientific argument, however, but a theological one. In defense of Paul, science hadn't yet been invented when he wrote.

Well, not in the sense of something that would be a page title in Wiki, but really, empirical investigations of the natural world have been described since antiquity, for example, by Aristotle, Heophrastus and Pliny the Elder.

I can't stand it when someone blows off thousands of years of history, discovery and knowledge with a silly statement like you did above.

415 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:54:15pm

re: #396 bellamags

I was actually looking for a pic when i double posted my response to you as well as Walter, so here it is Kimber

It's a beauty, bellamags, and I am so happy that you are enjoying it.
Get in as much range time as you can!

416 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:54:15pm

re: #394 Salamantis

It's willful.

Just asking, but why would anyone want to have a willful ignorance of science?

417 swamprat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:55:02pm

re: #402 quickjustice

I guess I should add that atheism is a belief system every bit as reliant upon faith (that there is no G-d) as any religion.

You can but it really frosts the atheists.

418 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:55:23pm

I think the key to America's resurgence is for Bill Clinton to dump Hillary and then become the Dean Martin of this generation. Take some singing lessons, hire some good writers and dancers, and host a variety show on Thursday nights with all the beautiful people.

I'm not kidding.

419 albusteve  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:56:03pm

re: #416 USBeast

Just asking, but why would anyone want to have a willful ignorance of science?

obviously for attention...what other reason can there be?

420 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:56:04pm

re: #397 albusteve

Nothing. Just a karma check.

Continuous contrarian position does not always illustrate a "devil's advocate".

Only my opinion.

421 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:56:07pm

re: #416 USBeast

Just asking, but why would anyone want to have a willful ignorance of science?

my opinion: they hate the thought of ultimate accountability to a holy God.

422 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:56:29pm

re: #410 Wishing

Well you didnt say it was a 1911! Those always look the same! LOL

i noticed that. LOL. we were also shooting a S&W 357 & .38 spl., a Springfield .38 and a North American Arms .22 magnum(pretty impressive)

423 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:57:17pm

re: #373 Salamantis

Here we disagree - "conclusively demonstrated" is not actual, "supported by" is closer to reality.

424 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:57:23pm

re: #406 Dark_Falcon

He has a partial point, Shar. There are people in this country out to destroy religious institutions, though they tend not to post here. That said, the solution to that problem is better oversight, not mandating the teaching of religious viewpoints in school. You don't counter a wrong by committing another wrong.

There are also hard core fundamentalists trying to establish a theocracy in this country, but when those folks are mentioned it's dismissed as overblown hyperbole. There are extremes on either end and as I mentioned before, they both serve as wonderful targets/examples for the other.

425 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:57:30pm

re: #404 bellamags

{Hoops} how are you tonight? I hope things are cool. Still want to go to the jazz bar?

Things are really cool..king regards..I'm serious..We are going to do our local lizard meet up. A weekend somewhere central with a reception friday night..
Breakfast and a bloggers conference..( we'll video cam Charles in)
with Lunch.. Dinner..Jazz club..dancing..
Everybody out on Sunday...Jorline said he'd cook...
What da think?

426 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:57:32pm

re: #422 bellamags

i noticed that. LOL. we were also shooting a S&W 357 & .38 spl., a Springfield .38 and a North American Arms .22 magnum(pretty impressive)

Wow sounds like fun! Is the S&W a revolver or semi-auto?

427 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:58:01pm

re: #422 bellamags

i noticed that. LOL. we were also shooting a S&W 357 & .38 spl., a Springfield .38 woops a Springfield .45 and a North American Arms .22 magnum(pretty impressive)

428 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:58:08pm

re: #384 celtic templar

Fodder for discussion, Pascal's Wager. Wikipedia summary only. The source can be found here: Pensees

In very simplistic terms: if there is no G-d, yet you believe, you lose nothing comparable to if there is a G-d and you do not believe. Lots of sticking points regarding believing for believing sake. G-d's reward system, etc.

Also, Roman Catholicism and Evolution are compatible:

Actually, if you lose this life by spending it in pursuit of a believed-in next rather than doing what you really would rather do with it, and there is no believed-in next, you have lost everything.

429 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:58:12pm

re: #398 BryanS

Well, that is interesting as I didn't consider the wager myself as means of persuasion, especially by fear. However, in simple terms, if my mind can allow for a construct of existence greater than myself, then I have nothing to lose. I was more optimistic in the sense that if I do believe there is something to gain. So belief very well may be an opportunistic force of nature.

If our belief in abstract concepts such as democracy and freedom are acceptable, both of which can neither be touched or "proven", then is not a belief in G-d acceptable as well?

430 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:58:21pm

re: #423 slokat

"conclusively demonstrated" is not actual, "supported by" is closer to reality.

Duh!

431 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:58:53pm

re: #425 HoosierHoops

Things are really cool..king regards..I'm serious..We are going to do our local lizard meet up. A weekend somewhere central with a reception friday night..
Breakfast and a bloggers conference..( we'll video cam Charles in)
with Lunch.. Dinner..Jazz club..dancing..
Everybody out on Sunday...Jorline said he'd cook...
What da think?

Sounds fabulous. I can't wait. details please.

432 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:59:17pm

re: #395 Naso Tang

...and a loud voice in the sky every now and then when too much fornication was going on.

Been a long time since I had to worry about hearing that loud voice...

/ if facts fit, is it really sarc?

433 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:59:20pm

re: #417 swamprat

You can but it really frosts the atheists.

Frosting is gud, K?

434 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:59:28pm

re: #402 quickjustice

The burden of proof on on the believer, not the doubter. Does your disbelief in Ganesh require faith? Same goes for Santa and the Easter Bunny.

435 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:00:05pm

re: #414 Walter L. Newton

And the "eidos", from which we get our word "idea", was the ancient system of categories of medicine. Aristotle, Heophrastus, and Pliny the Elder may have been observers of the natural world (don't forget "Eureka" while you're at it!), but they nonetheless were shrouded in the fog of ancient superstition. Paul made no pretense of being "scientific". He was a Christian theologian who challenged pagan Greek philosophers.

436 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:00:13pm

Hello Night Lizards! Can anyone tell me what the weather is like in South Western Ohio? I mean, from personal, recent experience?

So, proof of sanity in Illinois politics --or just proof of the logic of survival?

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

437 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:00:29pm

re: #426 Wishing

Wow sounds like fun! Is the S&W a revolver or semi-auto?

Revolvers. Very nice. The S&W .38 spl. was my favorite. Its a friends gun. older (about 50 yrs old) but it was accurate and easy to shoot, heavy enough not to jump. very nice (Borat voice)

438 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:00:58pm

re: #411 golly_wog

Scientific proof? If the genetic code actually spells out "Burma Shave".

Meanwhile, what does the butterfly know of its life as a worm?

/

Did you read Contact, the book not the movie, by Sagan?

439 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:01:52pm

re: #421 stretch

my opinion: they hate the thought of ultimate accountability to a holy God.

If there is an "ultimate accountability to a holy God" each and every one of us is SOL.

440 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:01:53pm

re: #413 stretch

I agree, but of course I would say that the religion supported by tax payer money is the dogma of evolutionism.

Can you name another religion that's supported by empirical data that's withstood 150+ years of scrutiny?

441 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:01:57pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

There are also hard core fundamentalists trying to establish a theocracy in this country, but when those folks are mentioned it's dismissed as overblown hyperbole. There are extremes on either end and as I mentioned before, they both serve as wonderful targets/examples for the other.

Yes there are. We should, and do, fight such people when they show up. However, in fairness to stretch, I must say that I do not think him one of those people. I believe he is wrong on evolution, but I do not believe that he seeks theocracy.

442 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:02:21pm

re: #403 karmic_inquisitor
Excellent post.
Course, I really don't think the Euroweenies are going to be able to stand economically on their own if they have to pay for such trifling expenses as a Military capable of defending their nation, when we won't try to maintain that security umbrella we've provided for so long. In fact I suspect that there are two things at play here: The EU is a con job to try to do away with "nationalism" while justifying socialism and they aren't going to pull out of their economic nosedive as well as the U.S. will.
Of course, that will mean that the EU won't like the U.S. anymore and Obama will be crushed by their lack of love for us.

443 golly_wog  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:02:22pm

re: #438 Naso Tang

Did you read Contact, the book not the movie, by Sagan?

No, I haven't. I'll look it up.

444 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:02:35pm

re: #405 stretch

as far as retroviral DNA sequences, it appears that the matching sites don't always give the same phylogeny - i.e. sometimes the retrovirus says apes first, then humans, then chimps, other times the retroviral sequences give an entirely different phylogeny. Hardly conclusive, I would say.

Actually, you are absotively, posilutely wrong. The empirical evidence is univocal and clear that gorillas diverged before chimps diid. And chimps are apes, btw. Really. Check it out. (sheesh!)

445 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:03:10pm

re: #441 Dark_Falcon

Nor have I said as much.

446 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:03:24pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

There are also hard core fundamentalists trying to establish a theocracy in this country, but when those folks are mentioned it's dismissed as overblown hyperbole. There are extremes on either end and as I mentioned before, they both serve as wonderful targets/examples for the other.

there are whackos™ in every corner, nook and cranny; even in the center. Everyone is a little extreme on some subject that is near and dear to them. IMHO, the problem is when individuals can't work together under our Constitution. It is just about as good as it gets.

447 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:03:36pm

re: #436 ggt

Just to prod the Illinois legislature along, the U.S. House of Representative put a provision in their "stimulus" package that Illinois couldn't collect a big chunk of their boodle as long as Blago was governor. Talk about blackmail!

"Convict Blago, or we'll deprive you of funding." Very dignified indeed. /sarc

448 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:03:40pm

re: #443 golly_wog

No, I haven't. I'll look it up.

Then I won't spoil it for you :)

449 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:03:41pm

re: #406 Dark_Falcon

He has a partial point, Shar. There are people in this country out to destroy religious institutions, though they tend not to post here. That said, the solution to that problem is better oversight, not mandating the teaching of religious viewpoints in school. You don't counter a wrong by committing another wrong.

Yeah...arsenic is a poor treatment for strychnine poisoning.

450 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:03:44pm

re: #437 bellamags

Revolvers. Very nice. The S&W .38 spl. was my favorite. Its a friends gun. older (about 50 yrs old) but it was accurate and easy to shoot, heavy enough not to jump. very nice (Borat voice)

Well OK, yesterday I picked up a 9mm CZ Rami, but havent been able to shoot it yet. We only have outdoor range and it is BRRR!
RAMI

451 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:04:17pm

re: #440 Sharmuta

Can you name another religion that's supported by empirical data that's withstood 150+ years of scrutiny?

Yes, biblical Christianity. Noah Webster once said: "the Bible is the anvil that has worn out many hammers."

452 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:04:31pm

re: #444 Salamantis

Actually, you are absotively, posilutely wrong. The empirical evidence is univocal and clear that gorillas diverged before chimps diid. And chimps are apes, btw. Really. Check it out. (sheesh!)

And even gorillas haven't diverged all that much ...

453 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:04:32pm

re: #428 Salamantis

Actually, if you lose this life by spending it in pursuit of a believed-in next rather than doing what you really would rather do with it, and there is no believed-in next, you have lost everything.

And thus a need for the belief of an afterlife, not necessarily for myself but for my fellow man/woman/child. If everything exists only in this existence, then everything may not be much of anything.

454 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:04:38pm

re: #435 quickjustice

And the "eidos", from which we get our word "idea", was the ancient system of categories of medicine. Aristotle, Heophrastus, and Pliny the Elder may have been observers of the natural world (don't forget "Eureka" while you're at it!), but they nonetheless were shrouded in the fog of ancient superstition. Paul made no pretense of being "scientific". He was a Christian theologian who challenged pagan Greek philosophers.

Oh come on, he Hellenized the early Christian teachings, borrowing from the Greek philosophers at the same time he challenged them. He was a philosophical plagiarizer. He was playing both sides of the coins.

455 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:05:07pm

re: #447 quickjustice

Just to prod the Illinois legislature along, the U.S. House of Representative put a provision in their "stimulus" package that Illinois couldn't collect a big chunk of their boodle as long as Blago was governor. Talk about blackmail!

"Convict Blago, or we'll deprive you of funding." Very dignified indeed. /sarc

hmmm, is that legal or are you pulling my leg?

456 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:05:25pm

re: #451 stretch

Yes, biblical Christianity. Noah Webster once said: "the Bible is the anvil that has worn out many hammers."

Please cite a specific example.

457 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:05:50pm

re: #446 ggt

there are whackos™ in every corner, nook and cranny; even in the center. Everyone is a little extreme on some subject that is near and dear to them. IMHO, the problem is when individuals can't work together under our Constitution. It is just about as good as it gets.

how did you get a trademark on "whackos"? impressive. otherwise, well stated.

458 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:05:57pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

Please cite a specific example.

You know- of empirical data, not one man's opinion.

459 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:06:00pm

re: #413 stretch

I agree, but of course I would say that the religion supported by tax payer money is the dogma of evolutionism.

No, religious dogmas (like creationism) are unsupported by empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is empirical science, and is supported by beaucoup evidence.

460 itellu3times  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:06:20pm

res ipsa loquitur

461 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:06:24pm

re: #429 celtic templar

Well, that is interesting as I didn't consider the wager myself as means of persuasion, especially by fear. However, in simple terms, if my mind can allow for a construct of existence greater than myself, then I have nothing to lose. I was more optimistic in the sense that if I do believe there is something to gain. So belief very well may be an opportunistic force of nature.

If our belief in abstract concepts such as democracy and freedom are acceptable, both of which can neither be touched or "proven", then is not a belief in G-d acceptable as well?

I understand many people who have faith have a positive faith, but I also have been on the receiving end of those wanting to damn me into believing. Not "believing" in democracy does not necessarily--though maybe it should--condemn you to everlasting damnation, hellfire, and brimstone.

Here's one to confound the creationists: I posit that faith is evolution's way of humans psychologically adapting to their awareness of their own mortality. The tree of knowledge really did require hope in the salvation of god afterall !

462 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:06:29pm

re: #450 Wishing

Well OK, yesterday I picked up a 9mm CZ Rami, but havent been able to shoot it yet. We only have outdoor range and it is BRRR!
RAMI

badass. that is sweet. light and easy to conceal.

463 jorline  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:06:37pm

Good evening, Lizards. I thought I would pop in for a few minutes before hitting the rack...what's up?

Are the rumors true that Blago's running for dog catcher in Muleshoe TX?

464 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:00pm

re: #416 USBeast

Just asking, but why would anyone want to have a willful ignorance of science?

Because they fear that knowledge of it might threaten their dearly cherished faith?

465 Racer X  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:01pm

I remember, this one time, when I was a monkey, ...

466 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:03pm

re: #460 itellu3times

res ipsa loquitur

Self-evidently.

467 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:14pm

re: #382 bellamags

i received it as a gift, but i knew of their reputation from reading the posts on LGF. it is a sweet gun but it will take some getting used to. its very precise.

I'll look again. Thanks.

468 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #452 OldLineTexan

And even gorillas haven't diverged all that much ...

Speaking of gorillas. . scroll down to to see the baby gorilla and the meercats and then to the on his mom's back.


awww!

469 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:21pm

re: #451 stretch

Hate to harsh your mellow, but where is the bible supported by empirical data? Even it's history is still hotly debated by historians and archeologists alike. I am not saying it's wrong, but there are still issues involved in it. The only reason it has withstood the ages is that it had an excellent support structure behind it known as the Church.

470 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:27pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

Lemee try: Creation, Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the tower of Babylon...oh, wait...I'm doing it wrong.

471 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:38pm

re: #438 Naso Tang

Opening of that movie was inspiring and brilliant (BTW, IMHO)

472 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:52pm

re: #392 Sharmuta
Hi Sharm! Uh, I'm not sure but I think the point he was trying to make was more about our public schools teaching "the benefits of socialism or the coming global warming apocalypse (caused by rapacious business interests), with barely a peep heard in protest by comparison.", then he was protesting the teaching of religion in school. But I've been wrong before!
If I'm right, then he clearly hasn't been following LGF for very long. We protest socialism and "climate change" (the new euphemism for the bullshit of global warming) on a daily basis here.

473 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:07:58pm

re: #462 bellamags

badass. that is sweet. light and easy to conceal.

Yes, I decided on this for my carry gun, can't wait to shoot it!

474 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:08:24pm

re: #421 stretch

my opinion: they hate the thought of ultimate accountability to a holy God.

You hate that thought? Because it is you who are willfully ignorant of science.

475 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:08:27pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

Please cite a specific example.

Every living thing.

The question again: what would be acceptable evidence (to you) for creation (i.e. a relatively singular event that occurred long ago, by which the universe and all things came into being)

476 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:08:48pm

re: #465 Racer X

I remember, this one time, when I was a monkey, ...

In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey

477 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:09:25pm

re: #459 Salamantis

No, religious dogmas (like creationism) are unsupported by empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is empirical science, and is supported by beaucoup evidence.

so what empirical (observable, repeatable, etc...) evidence would you accept for creation?

478 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:09:29pm

re: #434 Killgore Trout

Spare me the formal logic. Since I'm a believer who thinks evolution a marvel, and doesn't want creationism or ID taught to school children except in Sunday School class, I'd appreciate your focusing on the logic of atheism instead. And what's wrong with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? ;-) They are concrete representations of abstract concepts.

479 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:09:46pm

re: #421 stretch

my opinion: they hate the thought of ultimate accountability to a holy God.

There it is again -- believe in evolution and you'll burn in hell.

Tolerance!

480 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:09:53pm

re: #457 stretch

how did you get a trademark on "whackos"? impressive. otherwise, well stated.

Charles has a little link to a primer on such things at the bottom of the comment box.

481 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:01pm

re: #428 Salamantis

Actually, if you lose this life by spending it in pursuit of a believed-in next rather than doing what you really would rather do with it, and there is no believed-in next, you have lost everything.

But that sentiment is always dismissed as false logic, when the question of morals is advanced.

If this life is all that exists, do you put yourself aside for the altruism of species, or do you guarantee your own survival & those of your genetic inheritance, first?

...we seem to get stuck in science/philosophy.

482 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:12pm

re: #474 Salamantis

You hate that thought? Because it is you who are willfully ignorant of science.


actually, I'm not worried one bit.

483 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:12pm

The only empirical evidence of evolution I need are the pictures and listings on Craigslist "Casual Encounters."

484 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:33pm

re: #471 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Opening of that movie was inspiring and brilliant (BTW, IMHO)

I enjoyed the movie too, but really it was completely different from the book even while I can see that the book would not have been good movie material these days.

485 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:34pm

In my mind Faith and Science reinforce each other.

It is hard to put more words on it than that,

But with science, the beauty of it all is seen

and the more vividly it is

the more this amazing presence I feel or apprehend

It is difficult to find words

486 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:45pm

re: #409 slokat
Uh, yeah slokat, I'll make sure to tell him that! LOL!
Thanks.

487 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:45pm

re: #472 realwest

I have to hire someone with a front end loader to get rid of some of the global warming that is blocking our view of the road as we come out of our driveway, and make it wider again so we can actually move around on the driveway.

Fortunately, our neighbor across the street does excavations and plowing, so he'll do it.
Too bad it would cost me too much to deliver it to Al Gore.

488 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:50pm

re: #475 stretch

Aren't you really after proof to overturn evolution?

489 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:10:57pm

re: #473 Wishing

Yes, I decided on this for my carry gun, can't wait to shoot it!

I have the 22 mag for that. i like it, definitely a powerful little thing. very surprising how much power there is to it, however it is a bitch to reload. you have 5 shots and thats it, forget about reloading in a hurry.

490 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:11:22pm

re: #414 Walter L. Newton

Sorry I hurt your feelings, Walter! ;-)

491 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:11:29pm

re: #482 stretch

actually, I'm not worried one bit.

No, because you're one of the Chosen Ignorant Ones, who refuses to believe in scientific reality. Therefore you're guaranteed to go to heaven.

It's all so simple!

492 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:11:31pm

re: #479 Charles

There it is again -- believe in evolution and you'll burn in hell.

Tolerance!

that's taking what I said to an extreme of unimaginable proportions.

493 rawmuse  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:11:38pm

re: #483 Walter L. Newton

The only empirical evidence of evolution I need are the pictures and listings on Craigslist "Casual Encounters."

I lurk there sometimes to remind myself of how lucky I am to be married.

494 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:12:03pm

re: #476 OldLineTexan

In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey

with butane in my brain

495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:12:12pm

re: #479 Charles

There it is again -- believe in evolution and you'll burn in hell.

Tolerance!

Charles. Let's get this out once and for all. Right now.

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in a Supreme Being.

Do you think I am a Moron?

(Please, oh, please; do not base that on my general personality)!

496 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:12:19pm

re: #480 ggt

Charles has a little link to a primer on such things at the bottom of the comment box.

right, thanks

497 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:12:35pm

Here is the ultimate stimulus package. Everyone gets a no limit credit card for consumables and the debt you accumulate is retired when you die. But if you have any assets they go up for auction. WooHooo!

498 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:12:47pm

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Charles. Let's get this out once and for all. Right now.

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in a Supreme Being.

Do you think I am a Moron?

(Please, oh, please; do not base that on my general personality)!

Where did that come from?

499 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:12:56pm

re: #472 realwest

Hi Sharm! Uh, I'm not sure but I think the point he was trying to make was more about our public schools teaching "the benefits of socialism or the coming global warming apocalypse (caused by rapacious business interests), with barely a peep heard in protest by comparison.", then he was protesting the teaching of religion in school. But I've been wrong before!
If I'm right, then he clearly hasn't been following LGF for very long. We protest socialism and "climate change" (the new euphemism for the bullshit of global warming) on a daily basis here.

I have a sneaky suspicion that a good deal of the support (or at least non-resistance) for the push for ID in public schools come from parents who may not necessarily be creationists, but are conservative Christians nonetheless who think "putting God back in the classroom" is the antidote for leftist social engineering that is happening in the schools. I don't know where they got the idea that two wrongs make a right.

500 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:07pm

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Charles. Let's get this out once and for all. Right now.

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in a Supreme Being.

Do you think I am a Moron?

(Please, oh, please; do not base that on my general personality)!

It's spelled Moran, FBV. I saw it on DU!

501 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:12pm

re: #497 Mich-again

Here is the ultimate stimulus package. Everyone gets a no limit credit card for consumables and the debt you accumulate is retired when you die. But if you have any assets they go up for auction. WooHooo!

Sounds good. Where do I sign up?

502 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:40pm

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gosh! I hope I phrased that correctly.

BTW...Crown Royal is goood!

503 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:43pm

re: #481 slokat

Also, why are there no other species capable of being scientists? Has speciation only 1 path, to Homosapien?

504 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:43pm

re: #442 realwest

Excellent post.
Course, I really don't think the Euroweenies are going to be able to stand economically on their own if they have to pay for such trifling expenses as a Military capable of defending their nation, when we won't try to maintain that security umbrella we've provided for so long. In fact I suspect that there are two things at play here: The EU is a con job to try to do away with "nationalism" while justifying socialism and they aren't going to pull out of their economic nosedive as well as the U.S. will.
Of course, that will mean that the EU won't like the U.S. anymore and Obama will be crushed by their lack of love for us.

In my time there I started to see things a little differently.

First, I don't blame Europe for letting the US provide its defense. I would love it if some dynamic, freedom loving country would let us off the hook for defending ourselves. And if I could expect the co-dependent response of promising to provide even more protection by simply complaining about such a country, I'd complain all the time!

Second, European intellectuals have had the opportunity to over populate their social "eco system" because the US did such a great job of neutralizing their "predators" - nationalists and fascists. In other words, Europeans sucked the planet into two world wars and we defanged them. The result is a statist welfare state that seems successful because we subsidize it. Now Americans envy it.

Q. Who will do that for us?

A. No one.

It will take 20 years, but most Americans will come to realize that.

505 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:47pm

re: #492 stretch

that's taking what I said to an extreme of unimaginable proportions.

Your feelings on that matter are abundantly clear from your many fanatical comments.

506 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:49pm

re: #483 Walter L. Newton

The only empirical evidence of evolution I need are the pictures and listings on Craigslist "Casual Encounters."

holy crap dude, there are some SKANKS on that site.

507 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:55pm

re: #486 realwest

Uh, yeah slokat, I'll make sure to tell him that! LOL!
Thanks.

RW, how you doin' tonite?

508 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:13:56pm

re: #423 slokat

Here we disagree - "conclusively demonstrated" is not actual, "supported by" is closer to reality.

let's put it this way; there is far less of a statistical probability that you could win every lottery for the rest of your life by buying a single ticket in each one than the odds that humans and great apes were both infected by thousands of the same diseases at the same times, before a certain calculable divergence point, and that all these diseases spliced themselves into the isomorphically identical positions in their respective 3 billion base pair genomes - which is what would have had to occur in the absence of common ancestry.

509 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:09pm

re: #477 stretch

so what empirical (observable, repeatable, etc...) evidence would you accept for creation?

Proof in a fossil or geological record that the origin of a particular species was directed in manner that could not be explained by evolution.

510 CIA Reject  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:19pm

re: #485 Ojoe

In my mind Faith and Science reinforce each other.

It is hard to put more words on it than that,

But with science, the beauty of it all is seen

and the more vividly it is

the more this amazing presence I feel or apprehend

It is difficult to find words

Or, as some smart guy (Einstein?) once said:
"Science without Faith is blind, Faith with out Science is lame" ...

or something like that.

G'night all.

511 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:33pm

Good evening Lizards.
I hope this has been a hissy fit free topic tonight

512 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:33pm

Nighty night, Lizards. I must rise up early in the morn and do it again.

God bless America, God save the Queen and death to the enemies of Liberty.

513 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:34pm

re: #497 Mich-again

Plus, all goods will create themselves...

514 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:40pm

re: #493 rawmuse

I lurk there sometimes to remind myself of how lucky I am to be married.

I lurk there sometimes to help remind me that I'm alive.

515 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:42pm

re: #419 albusteve
Well it could also be that they lack any real education in the sciences - especially, I would think, biology and have no time to bring themselves up to speed.
Course the same is true of all of us - there are lots of things, for example, of which I am ignorant. I do, however, try not to reveal, much less revel in exposing said ignorance out here.

516 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:46pm

re: #501 BryanS

Sounds good. Where do I sign up?

Vote for me I'll set you free!

517 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:14:51pm

re: #491 Charles

No, because you're one of the Chosen Ignorant Ones, who refuses to believe in scientific reality. Therefore you're guaranteed to go to heaven.

It's all so simple!

If scientific reality is only what can be observed, tested, falsified, etc.. then I would have to say that evolutionism does not measure up. Why put your faith in it?

518 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:15:18pm

re: #485 Ojoe

In my mind Faith and Science reinforce each other.

It is hard to put more words on it than that,

But with science, the beauty of it all is seen

and the more vividly it is

the more this amazing presence I feel or apprehend

It is difficult to find words

Or in simplest terms, G-d created evolution,

"The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery."

519 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:15:44pm

re: #516 Mich-again

I'm feeling all hopey and changey inside.

520 gulfloafer  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:15:57pm

"Why should we tear the world apart arguing over obscure things which are incomprehensible or arguable or useless? The world is filed with anger, hostility, and strife." - Desiderius Erasmus 1466-1536

521 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:04pm

Nearthers!

522 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:07pm

re: #434 Killgore Trout

The burden of proof on on the believer, not the doubter. Does your disbelief in Ganesh require faith? Same goes for Santa and the Easter Bunny.

You are absolutely right!

The burden of proof is on the believer, and the burden is high.
Actions, lifestyle, relationships, charity, compassion...

523 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:08pm

re: #517 stretch

If scientific reality is only what can be observed, tested, falsified, etc.. then I would have to say that evolutionism does not measure up. Why put your faith in it?

Of course that's what you'd have to say, because you're a fanatical creationist. It's completely wrong, but you know that. It doesn't stop you from saying it.

524 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:17pm

re: #435 quickjustice

And the "eidos", from which we get our word "idea", was the ancient system of categories of medicine. Aristotle, Heophrastus, and Pliny the Elder may have been observers of the natural world (don't forget "Eureka" while you're at it!), but they nonetheless were shrouded in the fog of ancient superstition. Paul made no pretense of being "scientific". He was a Christian theologian who challenged pagan Greek philosophers.


Hi QJ!
I've never thought of Paul that way..No do i ever believed any of his writings addressed the Greeks..
The way I hear it..OldSaul da jew was waltzing down the road one day..
Killing jews on his way
they were really pissing him off..When a bright light made him stop
And a voice cried out this way..
Saul..Saul .why you mess'n with me bro?
Who dat Lord?
What was your first clue?
Lord?
See what I have to work with?
With that Saul became Paul..went blind for like 40 days, came out of the wilderness and wrote some of the most beautiful words ever put to paper.
Paul confronted the Jews and Gentiles and esp the Romans in his writings..
The Greeks..not so much...

525 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:35pm

re: #421 stretch

my opinion: they hate the thought of ultimate accountability to a holy God.

Shame on you for having the gall to not only speak of things you cannot know but also for trying to judge others' souls. Shame.

526 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:37pm

re: #517 stretch

But evolution has been observed, tested and is falsifiable! Just because you refuse to accept that reality doesn't make it so.

527 rawmuse  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:46pm

I think the thing we non-atheists are most afraid of is that there is no driver on this bus.

528 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:52pm

re: #506 bellamags

holy crap dude, there are some SKANKS on that site.

It was just a joke. I pick up all my dates on "Adult Friend Finder."

:)

529 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:16:54pm

re: #505 Charles

Your feelings on that matter are abundantly clear from your many fanatical comments.

i have not, ever, condemned anyone. you are making an association that is false.

530 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:17:02pm

re: #517 stretch

If scientific reality is only what can be observed, tested, falsified, etc.. then I would have to say that evolutionism does not measure up. Why put your faith in it?

Because it fits the facts better than anything else, stretch. What facts do you have to suggest that the theory is is wrong? Make your case, don't just sit there and snipe.

531 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:17:04pm

re: #498 Charles

It came from my wish for you to kindly explain to religious people that you do not hate them.

I see these arguments from religious folk all of the time here and (please see my 502!) you have said it so many different times that you're not a hater and I believe you.

Oh crap! Just delete it.

I do not (nor have I ever) feel disrespected here.

Sick of hearing the same stuff from the same or new people.

Sorry.

IRON FIST RULE IS GOOD RULE!

532 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:17:21pm

re: #504 karmic_inquisitor

Now Americans envy it.


Not this American. I have lived in Europe. There is a profound, stinking pessimism there. I will live here, it is way better.


Good night all

533 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:17:38pm

re: #511 Shug

Good evening Lizards.
I hope this has been a hissy fit free topic tonight

Shug, my band is playing at a bar at Pelham and Dartmouth Saturday night. I'll buy the beer if you show.

534 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:17:47pm

re: #528 Walter L. Newton

It was just a joke. I pick up all my dates on "Adult Friend Finder."

:)

my friends and i look at that stuff just out of morbid curiosity. its hilarious.

535 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:17:55pm

re: #422 bellamags
Did y'all have a chance to try the S&W .40 caliber, reduced recoil handgun (sorry, suckers so expensive I forgot the model name and number)? I tried it once on a range - it belonged to a former friend - and I must say that although the only handgun I've ever been actually trained to use is the 1911 .45, I was really impressed with the accuracy and stopping power of it.

536 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:18:09pm

re: #454 Walter L. Newton

Every great thinker borrows from others. Paul's audience was largely Greek and Roman, although there were some Jews. Of course he "hellenized" his evangelical message to appeal to them. He did it by design. He's the one who originated the expression, "When in Rome, do as the Romans."

This is really personal for you, isn't it?

537 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:18:25pm

re: #529 stretch

i have not, ever, condemned anyone. you are making an association that is false.

Of course not -- you edge around it by saying things like "ultimate accountability," because you know that if you came out and actually said it you wouldn't last long here. By being careful you get to continue your lame attempts at apologetics.

538 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:18:25pm

re: #421 stretch

my opinion: they hate the thought of ultimate accountability to a holy God.

You throw around this stuff about hate like you think it is everywhere but in

Logically, it is not possible to hate what is not believed exists. Why do you persist in thinking all non believers hate what you believe?

You are welcome to your beliefs and I know many of the best people on the planet who share them, but they don't try to push them on others as far as I know.

Of course this kind of communication medium is not the same as having a sociable encounter face to face, so I'll assume that you and I could enjoy a beer or two together, and agree not to discuss religion.

539 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:18:34pm

re: #529 stretch

i have not, ever, condemned anyone. you are making an association that is false.

Stretch, I'd step off if I were you. If you keep pushing at Charles, you won't like what happens. Fair warning.

540 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:18:38pm

re: #451 stretch

Yes, biblical Christianity. Noah Webster once said: "the Bible is the anvil that has worn out many hammers."

Well Genesis is not empirically supported. The evidence is foursquare against the assertion that the universe, the earth, and all life on it were created a few thousand years ago, and that all the millions of existent and extinct species were created separately and as is in the span of six days.

541 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:19:05pm

re: #523 Charles

Of course that's what you'd have to say, because you're a fanatical creationist. It's completely wrong, but you know that. It doesn't stop you from saying it.

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.

542 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:19:24pm

re: #533 Mich-again

Shug, my band is playing at a bar at Pelham and Dartmouth Saturday night. I'll buy the beer if you show.


how about a rain check? ( or snow check given the winter we're having )
going up North Tomorrow through Monday

543 quickjustice  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:19:40pm

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

? Do YOU think you're a moron?

544 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:19:57pm

re: #436 ggt
Hey ggt, well we're still talking science and religion but have meandered off from time to time into different pastures!
Hope you're well tonight!

545 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:02pm

re: #489 bellamags

I have the 22 mag for that. i like it, definitely a powerful little thing. very surprising how much power there is to it, however it is a bitch to reload. you have 5 shots and thats it, forget about reloading in a hurry.

Even as a mag, the .22 is a pee shooter with little stopping power. You might consider up-grading to a 9mm. If you have to use a weapon as self defense, you sure do not want your attacker to shrug off those 5 shots, you want them to count.
9mm is still pretty wimpy compared to the mighty .45, but using hollowpoints enhances stopping power.

546 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:09pm

re: #541 stretch

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.

And you apparently think people are believing this hooey.

547 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:13pm

re: #541 stretch

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.

How so?

548 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:15pm

Oh brother.

549 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:41pm

re: #535 realwest

Did y'all have a chance to try the S&W .40 caliber, reduced recoil handgun (sorry, suckers so expensive I forgot the model name and number)? I tried it once on a range - it belonged to a former friend - and I must say that although the only handgun I've ever been actually trained to use is the 1911 .45, I was really impressed with the accuracy and stopping power of it.

no, we didn't have the .40 caliber. i did like the feel of the S&W. it was so accurate, you almost didn't have to try to aim. just point and shoot. fabulous gun.

550 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:46pm

re: #544 realwest

Hey ggt, well we're still talking science and religion but have meandered off from time to time into different pastures!
Hope you're well tonight!

Hangin' in there. Dad took a turn for the worse today, so I'm trying to figure out how to head to Southern Ohio. I guess the road are really bad down there.

551 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:20:55pm

re: #453 celtic templar

And thus a need for the belief of an afterlife, not necessarily for myself but for my fellow man/woman/child. If everything exists only in this existence, then everything may not be much of anything.

On the other hand, human finitude conveys precious value upon each individual lived moment, which would not be of much value as an infinitesimal fraction of eternity.

552 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:21:10pm

What a waste to pursue science as a means to disprove God, and what a waste to pursue religion as a means to disprove science. The true perception of existence lies in the center, is not taught, only apprehended.

553 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:21:37pm

re: #541 stretch

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.

Here is comes...wait for it...he said something sciency...the proof that evolution is wrong is...just around the corner...

554 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:21:39pm

I am as unworried about about going to Christian hell as I am about being hit by Zeus' lightning bolts. Why would I attend an exclusive Christian heaven? I wouldn't eat at a restaurant that wouldn't allow Hindus, Muslims, or Buddhists. Why would I want to spend eternity with bigots?

555 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:22:07pm

Stretch,

Are you being persuasive?

556 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:22:11pm

re: #526 Sharmuta

But evolution has been observed, tested and is falsifiable! Just because you refuse to accept that reality doesn't make it so.

- again. Spontaneous generation of life has NEVER been observed, by anyone anytime. Spontaneous evolution of any species (according to that Wike def of species) into another species has NEVER been observed by anyone, anytime.

And what would falsify evolution? You need to clarify that, because I have not ever heard anyone claim that evolution is falsifiable.

557 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:22:19pm

re: #554 Killgore Trout

I am as unworried about about going to Christian hell as I am about being hit by Zeus' lightning bolts. Why would I attend an exclusive Christian heaven? I wouldn't eat at a restaurant that wouldn't allow Hindus, Muslims, or Buddhists. Why would I want to spend eternity with bigots?

I refuse to go anywhere in which dogs are not allowed.

:0

558 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:22:50pm

re: #532 Ojoe

Not this American. I have lived in Europe. There is a profound, stinking pessimism there. I will live here, it is way better.

Good night all

You are right - malaise on steroids.

Sadly, few American's know that. They see job guarantees, free health care and 4 weeks of vacation.

559 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:22:59pm

re: #551 Salamantis

Ah well, eternity is outside of time and cannot really be thought of as a long duration.

There's more about that in Aquinas' Summa.

Good night again

560 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:23:19pm

re: #546 Charles

And you apparently think people are believing this hooey.

I thought nothing of the sort - I only state what I know and believe. The choice of what to do with it is yours of course.

561 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:23:20pm

re: #556 stretch

- again. Spontaneous generation of life has NEVER been observed, by anyone anytime. Spontaneous evolution of any species (according to that Wike def of species) into another species has NEVER been observed by anyone, anytime.

And what would falsify evolution? You need to clarify that, because I have not ever heard anyone claim that evolution is falsifiable.

No one has ever seen G-d, either. Does that mean he is just a theory?

562 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:23:22pm

re: #557 ggt

That Twain? Sounds like Twain.

563 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:23:42pm

re: #463 jorline

Good evening, Lizards. I thought I would pop in for a few minutes before hitting the rack...what's up?

Are the rumors true that Blago's running for dog catcher in Muleshoe TX?

No he is just fine..Rumored to be moving into his new digs on K street as a high powered lobbiest, His wife may have been seen..And this is just pure speculation..but she is placing bids in on a few upscale places in Georgetown..
The book deals are rolling in..and daytime TV is just off the hook with their agency for bookings. Blago's Cell is off the hook..
So don't cry for me Argentina..

564 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:23:54pm

re: #536 quickjustice

Every great thinker borrows from others. Paul's audience was largely Greek and Roman, although there were some Jews. Of course he "hellenized" his evangelical message to appeal to them. He did it by design. He's the one who originated the expression, "When in Rome, do as the Romans." This is really personal for you, isn't it?

What is personal is anyone who simply parrots things they have been told by someone else, a teacher, a pastor what ever, and they are totally uninformed as to the validity of it.

Just like your comment above.

First attested in medieval Latin "si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi" (“if you are in Rome, live in the Roman way; if you are elsewhere, live as they do there”); which is attributed to St Ambrose.

[Link: en.wiktionary.org...]

Get your facts straight.

565 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:23:56pm

I see entropy all the time, with the continuous dispersal of new earth creationists accounts after they are vaporized

566 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:24:06pm

re: #546 Charles

And you apparently think people are believing this hooey.

Where the hell do they get this stuff about thermodynamics and evolution? I've heard this brought up in a few creationist meltdowns but I don't think its ever been elaborated on what exactly what twisting or misinterpretation of thermodynamics leads them to believe the Earth is 6000 years old and evolution is evil-lution. Do they have a problem with entropy or something?

567 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:24:08pm

re: #540 Salamantis

Forget about the dates and sequence. The key to all of Genesis is that at some point creatures known as men and women started wearing clothes. That is where we separated from every other form of life.

568 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:24:33pm

re: #562 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That Twain? Sounds like Twain.

Perhaps, resurrected from the rattlings in the back of my brain somewhere. As far as I know, it is pure ggt.

569 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:24:35pm

This is what creationists do, folks -- they refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts their ignorance, and delight in sending people off on wild goose chases. Give them the evidence they ask for, and they simply come back with another demand for more evidence, which they proceed to ignore.

It's the creationist hamster wheel.

570 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:24:35pm

re: #545 Wishing

Even as a mag, the .22 is a pee shooter with little stopping power. You might consider up-grading to a 9mm. If you have to use a weapon as self defense, you sure do not want your attacker to shrug off those 5 shots, you want them to count.
9mm is still pretty wimpy compared to the mighty .45, but using hollowpoints enhances stopping power.

I have hollow-points for the 22. it is ok for now, i know its not the best choice for a carry gun. the kimber is way too big to carry so eventually i would like a .38 revolver for that purpose. it felt the most comfortable. I will keep the Kimber at my bedside.

571 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:24:50pm

re: #541 stretch

One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.


You didn't fall for the easily debunked talking point about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, did you?

572 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:00pm

re: #558 karmic_inquisitor

They see job guarantees, free health care and 4 weeks of vacation.

A mess of pottage.

Good night all, again.
Probably really.

573 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:05pm

re: #475 stretch

Every living thing.

The question again: what would be acceptable evidence (to you) for creation (i.e. a relatively singular event that occurred long ago, by which the universe and all things came into being)

Every living thing contains DNA, and the DNAs of differnt living species are related to each other in clear evolutionary lines, whioch is evidence against the Biblical Genesis account, not for it.

574 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:06pm

re: #557 ggt

Cheers.

575 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:08pm

re: #542 Shug

how about a rain check?

Your rain check is always good here Mr. Torrence.

576 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:15pm

re: #479 Charles
"believe in evolution and you'll burn in hell."
Uh, oh. I beleive in evolution but hate really hot climes, whatever am I to do?!
/
They are consistent Charles. Consistently amazing.

577 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:23pm

re: #565 Shug

I see entropy all the time, with the continuous dispersal of new earth creationists accounts after they are vaporized

You took stretch's thermodynamics argument away from him...I was just waiting for it.

578 loup-garou  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:35pm

so some silly "Wiccan" kills his step kids and blames on a "bad" spell.

Iowa man convicted of killing young stepdaughters
SIOUX CITY, Iowa (AP) — An Iowa man has been found guilty of killing his two stepdaughters during a ritual from a satanic bible.

Lawrence Harris Sr., of Sioux City, was convicted Thursday on two counts of first-degree murder in Woodbury County District Court.

Sentencing is scheduled for Feb. 18. The convictions carry a mandatory sentence of life in prison.

Ten-year-old Kendra Suing and her 8-year-old sister Alysha Suing were found stabbed and strangled on Jan. 6, 2008. Authorities were responding to a fire at their home.

Harris told police that he was performing "some strange ritual" that had gone bad. Prosecutors have said he practiced Satanism and that the killings were part of a ritual.


Ok so dude goes to Jail for life Bye bye Scumbag. whats interesting tome is all the out right apologizing for this guy and the bemoaning about "lack of understanding by the media" on these "Wiccan" / "Pagan" blogs check out the ass hats at "the wild hunt"

579 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:36pm

re: #551 Salamantis

On the other hand, human finitude conveys precious value upon each individual lived moment, which would not be of much value as an infinitesimal fraction of eternity.

Existentialism versus Nihilism

580 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:49pm

re: #541 stretch

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.

I thought I was going to bed, but I cannot let this lunacy go unanswered. I call "Bullshit". Just what "college career" were you "late into"?

581 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:52pm

re: #575 Mich-again

Your rain check is always good here Mr. Torrence.


I like you Lloyd

582 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:53pm

Play along! Get your creationist bingo cards here:
Image: id_bingo_card_2.jpg
Just print one out, and follow the thread...

583 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:25:57pm

re: #556 stretch

- again. Spontaneous generation of life has NEVER been observed, by anyone anytime. Spontaneous evolution of any species (according to that Wike def of species) into another species has NEVER been observed by anyone, anytime.

And what would falsify evolution? You need to clarify that, because I have not ever heard anyone claim that evolution is falsifiable.

That is simply not true. There's the Ecoli, and nylonase as two examples.

The discovery of Human Chromosome 2 would have falsified evolution had it not been there.

And you are being willfully ignorant on "species". You want a fish changing into a cat and that's not what speciation is!

584 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:26:07pm

re: #548 Sharmuta

Iam is back. You remember her, dontcha'? The one who said you have no faith. She dinged me down for getting on to stretch for saying that people he doesn't know have no belief in God.

I'm hitting the hay. Good night, Lizards.

585 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:26:15pm

re: #569 Charles

This is what creationists do, folks -- they refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts their ignorance, and delight in sending people off on wild goose chases. Give them the evidence they ask for, and they simply come back with another demand for more evidence, which they proceed to ignore.

It's the creationist hamster wheel.

A possible new source of energy?

586 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:26:48pm

I'll be more than happy to spend eternity with Einstein, Ben Franklin, Jim Morrison and Gandhi.

587 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:02pm

re: #553 BryanS

Here is comes...wait for it...he said something sciency...the proof that evolution is wrong is...just around the corner...

evolution has to come up with its own proof - something more than wishful thinking while holding a rock.

588 jorline  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:19pm

After one week in office Obama is creating miracles.

The dead are rising from under the bus.

Good night, Lizards.

589 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:21pm

re: #487 Kosh's Shadow
LOL! Well (he says counting his "change" how much? Mayber we could all chip in?!
:)

590 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:21pm

re: #566 ArchangelMichael

Where the hell do they get this stuff about thermodynamics and evolution? I've heard this brought up in a few creationist meltdowns but I don't think its ever been elaborated on what exactly what twisting or misinterpretation of thermodynamics leads them to believe the Earth is 6000 years old and evolution is evil-lution. Do they have a problem with entropy or something?

I'm still waiting to hear an explanation on how thermodynamics invalidates evolution myself. I'm resigned to *crickets* however.

591 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:30pm

re: #583 Sharmuta

No, catfish is delicious.

592 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:36pm

Catfish!

593 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:42pm

re: #585 Walter L. Newton

A possible new source of energy?

Well, it beats the methane gas from unicorn farts BHO is pushing.

594 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:45pm

re: #582 jaunte

Heh. BTW, we've all been very impressed by your cover art for the cookbook. Are you a professional illustrator?

595 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:27:50pm

re: #477 stretch

so what empirical (observable, repeatable, etc...) evidence would you accept for creation?

The consistent discovery of fossils in strata where they evolutionarily did not belong. The discovery that vastly different species possessed identical DNA. The discovery that identical species possessed vastly different DNA. The discovery that some living organisms possessed no genetic material at all.

Good luck with those.

596 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:28:01pm

re: #586 Killgore Trout

I'll be more than happy to spend eternity with Einstein, Ben Franklin, Jim Morrison and Gandhi.

Same here... hmmm... well, I'm really not into the robe thing.

597 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:28:15pm

re: #586 Killgore Trout

I'll be more than happy to spend eternity with Einstein, Ben Franklin, Jim Morrison and Gandhi.

"The Jews should have laid down and died" Gandhi?

You can keep him.

598 celtic templar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:28:39pm

re: #569 Charles

This is what creationists do, folks -- they refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts their ignorance, and delight in sending people off on wild goose chases. Give them the evidence they ask for, and they simply come back with another demand for more evidence, which they proceed to ignore.

It's the creationist hamster wheel.

It is quite confusing and if the intent is to restore religious teaching in public school, seems to be backass halfward.

599 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:28:44pm

All efforts to prove the existence of God eventually must pre-suppose the existence of God.

Kierkegaard (a pious Christian) demonstrated that.

All efforts to disprove the existence of God must assume that all that is knowable is known. Every new discovery undermines such assumptions.

A belief in God is a leap of faith. As for the mechanics of this Universe and the life within it, there is no matter of "belief" at issue. It is a matter of demonstration hypothesis.

600 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:28:53pm

re: #583 Sharmuta

That is simply not true. There's the Ecoli, and nylonase as two examples.

The discovery of Human Chromosome 2 would have falsified evolution had it not been there.

And you are being willfully ignorant on "species". You want a fish changing into a cat and that's not what speciation is!

He wants a magic demonstration.

601 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:28:59pm

Quickjustice... I'm still waiting for an answer to my #564

602 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:29:14pm

re: #594 Killgore Trout

No, I'm a graphic designer. I draw and do some sculpture for fun.

603 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:29:16pm

re: #597 OldLineTexan

He was imperfect. But he was good at what he did.

604 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:29:35pm

re: #561 ggt

No one has ever seen G-d, either. Does that mean he is just a theory?

this is as I have always surmised - that most evolutionists continue to believe what they believe becuase they are philosophically predisposed against any alternative. Scientifically speaking, an alternative does not have to exist - evolution has to stand on its own (and to me, it is a big house of cards, with a lot of research funding and prestige riding on it).

605 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:29:53pm

re: #600 Syrah

He wants a magic demonstration.

Yep.

606 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:29:58pm

re: #602 jaunte

You did a fantastic job. Very well done.

607 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:20pm

re: #601 Walter L. Newton

Quickjustice... I'm still waiting for an answer to my #564

Where in 564 is there a question?

608 bellamags  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:26pm

i am sleepy. good night everyone.

609 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:28pm

re: #569 Charles

This is what creationists do, folks -- they refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts their ignorance, and delight in sending people off on wild goose chases. Give them the evidence they ask for, and they simply come back with another demand for more evidence, which they proceed to ignore.

It's the creationist hamster wheel.

Ah, so we can give the hamsters a night off? Let the creationists generate the energy we need for a while?

610 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:33pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

Thanks; it was a very enjoyable project.

611 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:39pm

re: #587 stretch

evolution has to come up with its own proof - something more than wishful thinking while holding a rock.

OK, stretch, you've gone from irritating to insulting. I've tried to engage you in a reasonable way, as has Salamantis, only to have you come back with this turd of a comment. There is only one thing left to say:

GAZE

612 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:46pm

re: #491 Charles
Boy, I really hate to ask this, but I'm afraid I have to.
Charles, when you say "No, because you're one of the Chosen Ignorant Ones, who refuses to believe in scientific reality. Therefore you're guaranteed to go to heaven." do you mean that all of us who do believe in scientific reality are NOT gonna go to heaven?

613 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:30:47pm

re: #481 slokat

But that sentiment is always dismissed as false logic, when the question of morals is advanced.

If this life is all that exists, do you put yourself aside for the altruism of species, or do you guarantee your own survival & those of your genetic inheritance, first?

...we seem to get stuck in science/philosophy.

It depends upon how wide your circle of concern is: whether it is only yourself, your immediate family, your extended family, your tribe, your faith, your country, or all of humanity.

614 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:05pm

re: #604 stretch

this is as I have always surmised - that most evolutionists continue to believe what they believe becuase they are philosophically predisposed against any alternative. Scientifically speaking, an alternative does not have to exist - evolution has to stand on its own (and to me, it is a big house of cards, with a lot of research funding and prestige riding on it).

Answer ggt's question

No one has ever seen G-d, either. Does that mean he is just a theory?

Back off from the evolution aspect of this for a moment and simply answer the question.

615 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:12pm

re: #603 Killgore Trout

He was imperfect. But he was good at what he did.

Yeah, I have heard that about Rommel, too.

616 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:41pm

re: #437 bellamags

Revolvers. Very nice. The S&W .38 spl. was my favorite. Its a friends gun. older (about 50 yrs old) but it was accurate and easy to shoot, heavy enough not to jump. very nice (Borat voice)

If you like old, I have a Remington Rolling Block 1875, Danish Krag ammo (which I have to have made at $2+ per pop). About 8mm I believe. A family thing.

I also acquired a "Handy Gun" from the 30's. Harrington. 40 smooth bore. Looks like something from Buck Rogers.

I'm no expert but old guns are interesting.

617 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:42pm

re: #570 bellamags

I have hollow-points for the 22. it is ok for now, i know its not the best choice for a carry gun. the kimber is way too big to carry so eventually i would like a .38 revolver for that purpose. it felt the most comfortable. I will keep the Kimber at my bedside.

Well you sure can't go wrong with that 1911! It's a beauty!

618 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:45pm

re: #587 stretch

evolution has to come up with its own proof - something more than wishful thinking while holding a rock.

Okay, you've totally disqualified yourself as a commentator on this subject. The science is sound. The fossil record is beyond dispute and the only wishful thinking is your own. Bugger off.

619 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:53pm

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Charles. Let's get this out once and for all. Right now.

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in a Supreme Being.

Do you think I am a Moron?

(Please, oh, please; do not base that on my general personality)!

well, you are a vegitarian in a world of tasty animals...

/white smoke

620 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:31:59pm

re: #607 OldLineTexan

Where in 564 is there a question?

Er, you have a point there.

621 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:04pm

re: #604 stretch

this is as I have always surmised - that most evolutionists continue to believe what they believe becuase they are philosophically predisposed against any alternative. Scientifically speaking, an alternative does not have to exist - evolution has to stand on its own (and to me, it is a big house of cards, with a lot of research funding and prestige riding on it).

gah, never mind.

622 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:05pm

re: #600 Syrah

He wants a magic demonstration.

Actually, he wants to make people dance.

623 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:13pm

re: #499 ArchangelMichael
"I don't know where they got the idea that two wrongs make a right."
The Democrats?!

624 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:14pm

re: #482 stretch

actually, I'm not worried one bit.

So your ignorance is not only willful, but also blissful. I intuited as much.

625 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:14pm

re: #593 Dark_Falcon

Well, it beats the methane gas from unicorn farts BHO is pushing.

I learned on another thread that those Unicorns poop Skittles. We could burn the Skittles and turn giant turbines!

/Oooops. I forgot about the CO2

626 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:23pm

A creationist uses the laws of thermodynamics to explain how he can cook Grits in 5 minutes

Mr Gambini: how could it take you 5 minutes to cook your grits when it takes the entire grit eating world 20 minutes?

Mr. Tipton: I don't know, I'm a fast cook I guess.
Mr Gambini: I'm sorry I was all the way over here I couldn't hear you did you say you were a fast cook, that's it?
Mr. Tipton: Yeah.
Mr Gambini: Are we to believe that boiling water soaks into a grit faster in your kitchen than anywhere else on the face of the earth?
Mr. Tipton: I don't know.
Mr Gambini: Well, I guess the laws of physics cease to exist on top of your stove. Were these magic grits? Did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

627 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:39pm

re: #587 stretch

Even Christians can be jerks.

Stop proving it.

You are not helping your (or anybody's) cause.

628 jorline  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:32:51pm

re: #563 HoosierHoops

No he is just fine..Rumored to be moving into his new digs on K street as a high powered lobbiest, His wife may have been seen..And this is just pure speculation..but she is placing bids in on a few upscale places in Georgetown..
The book deals are rolling in..and daytime TV is just off the hook with their agency for bookings. Blago's Cell is off the hook..
So don't cry for me Argentina..

Hey, Hoopster. Glad I saw your comments before shutting down for the night. Blago's ego is so large he could auction off half of it on eBay and still have enough left over to bullshit 80% of the Third World Countries.

629 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:33:24pm

re: #594 Killgore Trout

Heh. BTW, we've all been very impressed by your cover art for the cookbook. Are you a professional illustrator?

Link please?

630 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:33:34pm

re: #586 Killgore Trout

I'll be more than happy to spend eternity with Einstein, Ben Franklin, Jim Morrison and Gandhi.

Uhh why? Thats got to be the very worst list of 4 other people I would spend eternity with I can even imagine.

What the F* would the 5 of you do every day forever?

631 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:33:40pm

re: #622 Charles

Actually, he wants to make people dance.

I prefer Beck to stretch.

632 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:12pm
633 rawmuse  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:18pm

"Mongo not know. Mongo just a pawn in game of life"

634 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:29pm

re: #631 Sharmuta

I prefer Beck to stretch.

Butane in my brain!

635 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:39pm

re: #631 Sharmuta

I prefer Beck to stretch.

You stretch to Glen Beck?

636 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:55pm

re: #618 USBeast

re: #587 stretch

evolution has to come up with its own proof - something more than wishful thinking while holding a rock.


Okay, you've totally disqualified yourself as a commentator on this subject. The science is sound. The fossil record is beyond dispute and the only wishful thinking is your own. Bugger off.

Stretch basically has conceded the argument by offering nothing to disprove evolution...stretch was simply too timid to throw out whatever thermodynamics canard he was about to.

637 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:56pm

re: #629 Wishing

LGF CookBook
/Click to enlarge

638 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:34:58pm

re: #619 redc1c4

Laughing reeeally hard.

Funny as heck!

639 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:35:12pm

re: #632 Sharmuta

More Beck? Nice. Never saw this one.

640 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:35:13pm

re: #583 Sharmuta

That is simply not true. There's the Ecoli, and nylonase as two examples.

The discovery of Human Chromosome 2 would have falsified evolution had it not been there.

And you are being willfully ignorant on "species". You want a fish changing into a cat and that's not what speciation is!


You have falsification backward: a repeatable, observable condition or event must be surmised that, if the event or condition were true, evolution as a theory would be disproved. Without this condition of falsifiability, evolution is not acceptable as a theory.

The claims about e-coli just do not hold up. If e-coli evolves into e-coli, what's the difference?

641 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:35:44pm

re: #630 Mich-again

Uhh why? Thats got to be the very worst list of 4 other people I would spend eternity with I can even imagine.

What the F* would the 5 of you do every day forever?

No women?

642 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:35:50pm

re: #631 Sharmuta

I prefer Beck to stretch.

Then here's a Beck song dedicated to stretch:

643 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:36:13pm

re: #640 stretch

The claims about e-coli just do not hold up. If e-coli evolves into e-coli, what's the difference?

You are willfully ignorant of what is meant by speciation every time you post comments like this.

644 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:36:22pm

re: #641 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No women?

No raisins, either.

645 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:36:29pm

re: #641 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No women?

Who needs one if its only for an eternity?

646 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:36:41pm
647 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:36:43pm

re: #639 Mich-again

Fun song and video.

648 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:36:52pm

In Heaven, there is no bier

649 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:37:09pm

re: #630 Mich-again

Uhh why? Thats got to be the very worst list of 4 other people I would spend eternity with I can even imagine.

What the F* would the 5 of you do every day forever?

Frankly, I would prefer to spend eternity as bits of energy being utilized where they are needed. BUT, it isn't really my choice (as far as I know). I'll have to accept whatever does happen when death comes. I do know, that when it comes, I'll (hopefully) have few regrets and be content with the inevitable.

My only true wish is not to outlive my kid.

650 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:38:18pm

re: #517 stretch

If scientific reality is only what can be observed, tested, falsified, etc.. then I would have to say that evolutionism does not measure up. Why put your faith in it?

Actually, evolutionary theory DOEs measure up by those criteria, and more so than almost any other scientific theory. Which is why it requires no faith or belief; it can be known to be valid by perusing alla that empirical evidence for it.

651 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:38:19pm

re: #649 ggt

My only true wish is not to outlive my kid.

True that.

652 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:38:23pm

re: #627 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even Christians can be jerks.

Stop proving it.

You are not helping your (or anybody's) cause.

it's much easier to claim to be a Christian than it is to actually act as one...

653 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:38:37pm

re: #612 realwest

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gentlemen - I give you the writings of Lao Stinky ...

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

Lao Stinky

654 hazzyday  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:38:44pm

re: #599 karmic_inquisitor

All efforts to prove the existence of God eventually must pre-suppose the existence of God.

Kierkegaard (a pious Christian) demonstrated that.

All efforts to disprove the existence of God must assume that all that is knowable is known. Every new discovery undermines such assumptions.

A belief in God is a leap of faith. As for the mechanics of this Universe and the life within it, there is no matter of "belief" at issue. It is a matter of demonstration hypothesis.

At some level everything you measure is an illusion and dreams have more reality.

655 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:39:16pm

re: #595 Salamantis

The consistent discovery of fossils in strata where they evolutionarily did not belong. The discovery that vastly different species possessed identical DNA. The discovery that identical species possessed vastly different DNA. The discovery that some living organisms possessed no genetic material at all.

Good luck with those.

You said "consistent discovery", yet some have been found out of place. How many would have to be out of place to falsify?

As far as vastly different species possessing identical DNA: pick two humans. No wait, that doesn't work...

No genetic material for a living organsim? But of course, that would be the rock that decided to come alive. Cause and effect.

656 Ojoe  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:39:25pm

A wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom

657 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:39:25pm

re: #640 stretch

So, how does it feel to go through life this ignorant? I almost think that there is a streak of masochism in your makeup, otherwise you wouldn't still be posting against such overwhelming odds. Matter of fact, why do you still hang around here? Are you part of the Disco Institute? Or are you trying to save the heathen masses from themselves?

658 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:39:30pm

re: #645 Mich-again

Who needs one if its only for an eternity?

Me? Please?

659 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:40:06pm

re: #550 ggt Ah crap, I'm so sorry to hear about your Dad - I'm not from there, but Mom's sister is and so Mom always watches the Ohio weather report as well as local, and she told me that the weather up around Cleveland is supposed to be really bad, don't know about southern Ohio though.
Thoughts and prayers for you Dad.

660 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:40:08pm

re: #640 stretch

You have falsification backward: a repeatable, observable condition or event must be surmised that, if the event or condition were true, evolution as a theory would be disproved. Without this condition of falsifiability, evolution is not acceptable as a theory.

The claims about e-coli just do not hold up. If e-coli evolves into e-coli, what's the difference?

Give us a break Stretch. Have you ever hear of modification? That is actually, simply put, the basis of all science. Evolution has been modified since Darwin, yet it is still true. Gravity has been modified from Newton to Einstein and now may be modified again if/when the Pioneer anomalies, repeated in other probes can be explained. I could go on, but you probably wouldn't understand.

661 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:40:38pm

re: #653 karmic_inquisitor

Thanks. Could not remember it. Was the reason/source/hope for my post.

Thank you again.

662 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:40:47pm

re: #643 Sharmuta

You are willfully ignorant of what is meant by speciation every time you post comments like this.

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

663 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:40:50pm

re: #640 stretch


The claims about e-coli just do not hold up. If e-coli evolves into e-coli, what's the difference?

if e-coli evolved into you, it would prove devolution...

664 USBeast  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:41:18pm

re: #656 Ojoe

A wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom

I whole heartedly agree. Good night Lizards.

665 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:41:33pm

re: #662 stretch

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

You and that baboon at the zoo.

//

666 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:41:38pm

re: #648 OldLineTexan

In Heaven, there is no bier

another reason not to go...

667 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:41:39pm

re: #662 stretch

How do you define species?

668 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:41:52pm

re: #657 BlueCanuck

So, how does it feel to go through life this ignorant? I almost think that there is a streak of masochism in your makeup, otherwise you wouldn't still be posting against such overwhelming odds. Matter of fact, why do you still hang around here? Are you part of the Disco Institute? Or are you trying to save the heathen masses from themselves?

I'm not part of DI (and have never even visited their website or read their material). But I'm touched by your concern for my welfare.

669 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:42:16pm

re: #659 realwest

Ah crap, I'm so sorry to hear about your Dad - I'm not from there, but Mom's sister is and so Mom always watches the Ohio weather report as well as local, and she told me that the weather up around Cleveland is supposed to be really bad, don't know about southern Ohio though.
Thoughts and prayers for you Dad.

thanks RW. Suppossedly some of the roads were bad in Northern KY and Southern OH, that they were arresting people for driving. Hubby got on the Ohio State Police site (I guess they do a very good job of reporting road conditions) and told me I wasn't to go today.

I'm really more worried about Mom. She's too old to handle all this. I did get her to agree to move up here in the spring.

670 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:42:34pm

re: #662 stretch

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

Then what is your answer to this?:

Pink iguanas unseen by Darwin offer evolution clue

671 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:43:07pm

re: #662 stretch

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

I did give examples, but because you refuse to understand what is meant by "species" you reject it.

672 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:43:33pm

Today in History - Jan. 30

Today is Friday, Jan. 30, the 30th day of 2009. There are 335 days left in the year.

Today's Highlight in History:

On Jan. 30, 1968, the Tet Offensive began during the Vietnam War as Communist forces launched surprise attacks against South Vietnamese provincial capitals; although the Communists were beaten back, the offensive was seen as a major setback for the U.S. and its allies.

On this date:

In 1649, England's King Charles I was beheaded.

In 1882, the 32nd president of the United States, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, was born in Hyde Park, N.Y.

In 1909, community organizer and social activist Saul Alinsky was born in Chicago.

In 1933, Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany. The first episode of the "Lone Ranger" radio program was broadcast on station WXYZ in Detroit.

In 1939, the Supreme Court, in Tennessee Electric Power Co. v. Tennessee Valley Authority, upheld the right of the federally owned TVA to compete with private utilities.

In 1948, Indian political and spiritual leader Mohandas K. Gandhi was shot and killed by a Hindu extremist.

In 1962, two members of "The Flying Wallendas" high-wire act were killed when their seven-person pyramid collapsed during a performance in Detroit.

In 1972, 13 Roman Catholic civil rights marchers were shot to death by British soldiers in Northern Ireland on what became known as "Bloody Sunday."

In 1979, the civilian government of Iran announced it had decided to allow Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who'd been living in exile in France, to return.

In 2003, Richard Reid, the British citizen and al-Qaida follower who'd tried to blow up a trans-Atlantic jetliner with explosives hidden in his shoes, was sentenced to life in prison by a federal judge in Boston.

Ten years ago: NATO authorized its secretary-general to launch military action in Yugoslavia if the warring parties failed to negotiate an agreement for autonomy in Kosovo.

Five years ago: Former French Prime Minister Alain Juppe was found guilty in connection with a party financing scandal and declared ineligible for public office for 10 years. NASA's Mars rover Opportunity spied hints of a mineral that typically forms in water — a finding that could mean the dry and dusty Red Planet was once wetter and more hospitable to life.

673 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:43:47pm

re: #541 stretch

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.

Oh, puh-LEEEZE! That tired old canard about the irrevocable degradation of closed systems? Except that open systems permit the growth of complexity. You know, like the earth. Which receives energy from the sun.

674 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:43:51pm

re: #662 stretch

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

well, your parents had you...

675 hazzyday  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:44:10pm

re: #578 loup-garou

so some silly "Wiccan" kills his step kids and blames on a "bad" spell.


Ok so dude goes to Jail for life Bye bye Scumbag. whats interesting tome is all the out right apologizing for this guy and the bemoaning about "lack of understanding by the media" on these "Wiccan" / "Pagan" blogs check out the ass hats at "the wild hunt"

A looney tune. Sad that he was allowed to associate with children. Drawn to wicca so he can pervert his self interest behind a disquise.

676 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:44:47pm

stretch

Karma: -1,671
No. of comments posted: 253
(an average comment rating of - 6.6)


No. of links posted: 0

677 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:45:07pm

Human civilization has built up and then died off a few times already at least. We are next. So how do we preserve our accumulated knowledge for the few survivors whoever they might be. uh, thats not possible actually. DVD's and books will be useless in a hundred years. Unless Obama's stimulus plan works and mankind is saved.
/

678 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:45:08pm

re: #660 Naso Tang

Give us a break Stretch. Have you ever hear of modification? That is actually, simply put, the basis of all science. Evolution has been modified since Darwin, yet it is still true. Gravity has been modified from Newton to Einstein and now may be modified again if/when the Pioneer anomalies, repeated in other probes can be explained. I could go on, but you probably wouldn't understand.



I think that comes on a bit thick, when Gravity is compared to evolution. Like evolution of a species is just as evident and obvious as say, an apple falling from a tree. They are both theories right? and we can see apples fall, right?

679 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:45:09pm

re: #637 Killgore Trout

LGF CookBook
/Click to enlarge

Wow jaunte, that is just GREAT!

680 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:46:11pm

re: #679 Wishing

Thanks; I almost went back and put in a pink iguana, but I got the news a little too late.

681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:46:23pm

re: #649 ggt


My only true wish is not to outlive my kid.

My cousin (53) died yesterday, found out this morning, sunk in this evening. He was severely mentally handicapped. My Aunt and Uncle's lives have revolved around this man for 53 years.

The only time I can ever remember being relieved about a son dying before his parents. Am crushed because I have a double whammy. So, very sad for them, and so relieved for him and I just don't know which is right.

Sorry if I was less fun tonight.

See y'all tomorrow.

682 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:46:24pm

re: #676 Shug

stretch

Karma: -1,671
No. of comments posted: 253
(an average comment rating of - 6.6)

No. of links posted: 0

The missing links!

683 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:46:41pm

re: #667 jaunte

How do you define species?

I liked the Wiki one that I posted earlier:

"In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, more precise or differing measures are often used, such as based on similarity of DNA or morphology. Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into subspecies"

684 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:47:11pm

re: #678 stretch

I think that comes on a bit thick, when Gravity is compared to evolution. Like evolution of a species is just as evident and obvious as say, an apple falling from a tree. They are both theories right? and we can see apples fall, right?

Snarky, isn't he? He so makes me want to rethink my position. As if.

GAZE

685 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:47:13pm

re: #682 Sharmuta

snort

686 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:47:53pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My cousin (53) died yesterday, found out this morning, sunk in this evening. He was severely mentally handicapped. My Aunt and Uncle's lives have revolved around this man for 53 years.

The only time I can ever remember being relieved about a son dying before his parents. Am crushed because I have a double whammy. So, very sad for them, and so relieved for him and I just don't know which is right.

Sorry if I was less fun tonight.

See y'all tomorrow.

{FBV}

687 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:48:29pm

re: #662 stretch

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

At root, and to be consistent, you are arguing that anything that is not explicitly observed, is not knowable.

688 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:48:54pm

re: #637 Killgore Trout

LGF CookBook
/Click to enlarge

is it too late for recipe submissions?

689 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:49:07pm

re: #678 stretch

has anyone noticed that Stretch has ignore this question...

No one has ever seen G-d, either. Does that mean he is just a theory?

Ggt's first asked the question, I repeated the question, and I am asking it again. Back off from the evolution aspect of this for a moment and simply answer the question above.

690 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:49:13pm

re: #678 stretch

I think that comes on a bit thick, when Gravity is compared to evolution. Like evolution of a species is just as evident and obvious as say, an apple falling from a tree. They are both theories right? and we can see apples fall, right?

Oh...and the general theory of relativity is obvious? Have you observed it? Moron.

691 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:49:31pm

re: #688 redc1c4

is it too late for recipe submissions?

I am not sure, but reine is in charge of that, I think.

692 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:49:42pm

re: #683 stretch

Here's an example of salamanders in California diverging into species which can't interbreed:

'...By the time the salamanders reached the southernmost part of California, the separation had caused the two groups to evolve enough differences that they had become reproductively isolated. In some areas the two populations coexist, closing the "ring," but do not interbreed. They are as distinct as though they were two separate species. Yet the entire complex of populations belongs to a single taxonomic species, Ensatina escholtzii.

Ring species, says biologist David Wake, who has studied Ensatina for more than 20 years, are a beautiful example of species formation in action. "All of the intermediate steps, normally missing, have been preserved, and that is what makes it so fascinating."


[Link: www.pbs.org...]

693 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:49:47pm

re: #556 stretch

- again. Spontaneous generation of life has NEVER been observed, by anyone anytime. Spontaneous evolution of any species (according to that Wike def of species) into another species has NEVER been observed by anyone, anytime.

And what would falsify evolution? You need to clarify that, because I have not ever heard anyone claim that evolution is falsifiable.

Well, we weren't arond 3 1/2 billion years ago, when terrestrial life began. because we, well, began much later, after much, MUCH evolution.

Species don't change into each other; they evolve and diverge. If someone shows you a hippo changing into a kangaroo, that;s not evidence of evolution, but an example of God sticking a finger into the world.

And my list of ways to falsify evolution is in comment #595.

694 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:50:20pm

re: #677 Mich-again

Human civilization has built up and then died off a few times already at least. We are next. So how do we preserve our accumulated knowledge for the few survivors whoever they might be. uh, thats not possible actually. DVD's and books will be useless in a hundred years. Unless Obama's stimulus plan works and mankind is saved.
/

That's a bit too negative for me, Mich. I have to have hope we'll make it through this crisis.

695 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:50:20pm

re: #682 Sharmuta

The missing links!

There must be a mistake in the stats, because I did post a link on Ota Benga, the african pygmy that was put on display at a zoo by some evolutionists (after his family was slaughtered).

696 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:50:34pm

re: #692 jaunte

But that's still just salamanders. ///

697 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:50:37pm

re: #688 redc1c4

In fact, now that I think about it, I think it is being printed?

698 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:50:54pm

re: #696 Sharmuta

Bingo!

699 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:51:11pm

re: #682 Sharmuta

Lol

700 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:51:47pm

re: #508 Salamantis

Sheesh don't stretch statistics...

You sound like some of the posters that you wouldn't spend time even reading when you make that analogy.

I'll pretend I never read that.

701 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:51:49pm

re: #688 redc1c4

I think so. It's already gone to print.

702 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:04pm

I got Killgore to laugh. Victory is mine!

703 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:13pm

hell yes

704 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:18pm

re: #560 stretch

I thought nothing of the sort - I only state what I know and believe. The choice of what to do with it is yours of course.

Umm, there's a difference between knowledge and belief; it's the presence or absence of empirical evidence - and you have none. You may believe this creationist crapola, but you sure as hell don't know it.

705 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:27pm

re: #697 Wishing

In fact, now that I think about it, I think it is being printed?

well then, there's always volume II... %-)

706 Racer X  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:39pm

re: #554 Killgore Trout

I am as unworried about about going to Christian hell as I am about being hit by Zeus' lightning bolts. Why would I attend an exclusive Christian heaven? I wouldn't eat at a restaurant that wouldn't allow Hindus, Muslims, or Buddhists. Why would I want to spend eternity with bigots?

Thermodynamics, baby. Thermodynamics.

707 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:40pm

re: #678 stretch

and we can see apples fall, right?

But what is gravity?

708 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:46pm

I've got get up early so, i'll knock off now. Have fun, all!

709 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:47pm

re: #695 stretch

There must be a mistake in the stats, because I did post a link on Ota Benga, the african pygmy that was put on display at a zoo by some evolutionists (after his family was slaughtered).

sure you did...

710 claire  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:50pm

re: #655 stretch

You said "consistent discovery", yet some have been found out of place. How many would have to be out of place to falsify?

There aren't any fossils that have been found "out of place." Please provide links to the ones you think you know of.

711 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:52:55pm

re: #703 Killgore Trout

See #279.

712 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:53:18pm

re: #677 Mich-again

Human civilization has built up and then died off a few times already at least. We are next. So how do we preserve our accumulated knowledge for the few survivors whoever they might be. uh, thats not possible actually. DVD's and books will be useless in a hundred years. Unless Obama's stimulus plan works and mankind is saved.
/

I can see how if technological civilization collapses that DVDs would obviously be useless but why books? Will no one be able to read or at least not read English?

713 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:53:26pm

re: #707 Mich-again

But what is gravity?

there is no gravity: the earth sucks.

714 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:53:36pm

re: #690 BryanS

Oh...and the general theory of relativity is obvious? Have you observed it? Moron.

some effects of the general theory have been observed of course. The point is of course that the bases of evolution have not been observed. TO compare to gravity is quite a reach.

715 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:54:22pm

re: #704 Salamantis

Umm, there's a difference between knowledge and belief; it's the presence or absence of empirical evidence - and you have none. You may believe this creationist crapola, but you sure as hell don't know it.

He can't even answer a question about g-d. He doesn't know anything about evolution, but at the same time, I don't think he believes in g-d.

716 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:54:37pm

re: #567 Mich-again

Forget about the dates and sequence. The key to all of Genesis is that at some point creatures known as men and women started wearing clothes. That is where we separated from every other form of life.

Even hermit crabs?

/You don't think they grow those shells, do you?

717 Shug  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:54:55pm

re: #702 Sharmuta

I got Killgore to laugh. Victory is mine!

I set you up, and you definately spiked that one!

Hilarious

718 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:55:22pm

re: #710 claire

There aren't any fossils that have been found "out of place." Please provide links to the ones you think you know of.

well you see, they were moving the museum to it's new building, and the movers got confused, so that the Neanderthal bones got mixed in with the dinosaur bones...

/white smoke

719 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:55:41pm

re: #711 Sharmuta

Heh. My nic used to link to a great Tyler Durden rant but it got axed from youtube. I just changed it to Hell Yes.

720 proud to be an infidel  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:56:13pm

re: #26 Thanos

This is a good comeback by Ken, and it was deserved. Coyne makes the same mistake many atheists do - extrapolating what they do know to explain things they can't possibly know yet in an effort to really bolster their own world view. I'm an atheist, my view is that God is possible, but the chances are slim. I am the first to admit that I don't know, and I'm comfortable with "I don't know for sure" since what we don't know so far outweighs what we do. It's hubristic and also weak-knead atheism to smack down religion when you can't possibly know anymore than those who are religious can possibly know for sure. It's a disavowal of the very empiricism Coyne admires.

Very well said! BUT since you believe that God is possible, wouldn't you consider yourself an agnostic?

721 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:56:22pm

re: #676 Shug

stretch

Karma: -1,671
No. of comments posted: 253
(an average comment rating of - 6.6)

No. of links posted: 0

Prove it!

/

722 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:56:47pm

re: #718 redc1c4

OT - why the "white smoke" tag on all your comments? I know what "white smoke" means in Catholic tradition, but I don't understand how that reference has something to do with your posts.

723 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:56:49pm

re: #717 Shug

I set you up, and you definately spiked that one!

Hilarious

Tag teaming- I usually do that with jaunte and then we high five. So...

High five, yo.

724 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:57:07pm

re: #613 Salamantis

I think I defined the terms quite exactly there, why the sidestep?

725 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:57:44pm

re: #693 Salamantis

Well, we weren't arond 3 1/2 billion years ago, when terrestrial life began. because we, well, began much later, after much, MUCH evolution.

Species don't change into each other; they evolve and diverge. If someone shows you a hippo changing into a kangaroo, that;s not evidence of evolution, but an example of God sticking a finger into the world.

And my list of ways to falsify evolution is in comment #595.

back to diverging species - looking at a fossil/rock and speculating that its ancestors were genetically divergent is, to me, the epitomy of wishful thinking. And did you happen to comment on different sets of 'artifactual DNA' giving uncompatible phylogeny?

726 pink freud  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:57:56pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am so sorry for your loss, FBV.

727 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:57:58pm

re: #714 stretch

some effects of the general theory have been observed of course. The point is of course that the bases of evolution have not been observed. TO compare to gravity is quite a reach.

So have the effects of evolution been observed, but since you have not seen a species transform in front of your eyes, you refuse to acknowledge its evidence. What makes you think the general theory is true--have you personally observed its effects?

Oh, and you still left dangling that tantalizing BS about thermo...we're all waiting to pounce.

728 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:58:32pm

re: #722 Walter L. Newton

heh, give him a sec. He will post all the smoke meanings in a second. About the only other one we have used here is green smoke.

/ponders throwing one in stretchs direction, but we got that one all figured out.

729 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:58:40pm

re: #678 stretch

I think that comes on a bit thick, when Gravity is compared to evolution. Like evolution of a species is just as evident and obvious as say, an apple falling from a tree. They are both theories right? and we can see apples fall, right?

Well, I'm sorry you missed my point, but I do understand that you believe what you can see and nothing more and I mean that in its most literal sense.

Thank you for the clarification (no sarc intended)

But I will repeat a link I had posted somewhere earlier, just in your honor.
How to understand the meaning of theory

730 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:58:44pm

re: #716 Salamantis

Even hermit crabs?

/You don't think they grow those shells, do you?

Bad example. A hermit crab's shell is more about self defense than just concealing the privates.

731 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:59:10pm

re: #722 Walter L. Newton

OT - why the "white smoke" tag on all your comments? I know what "white smoke" means in Catholic tradition, but I don't understand how that reference has something to do with your posts.

a holdover from my Usenet upbrining...

Smoke and Pyro

White Smoke---Covering/Screening only
Yellow Smoke---Designated target (Fire at will)
Purple Smoke---All after is sarcastic
Green Smoke---Kook Identifed
White Star Cluster---All Clear
Yellow Star Cluster---Cease-fire
Red Star Cluster---Danger

Some Examples:

Red says something smart and instead of "ducking," pops white smoke and disengages.

732 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:59:28pm

re: #578 loup-garou

so some silly "Wiccan" kills his step kids and blames on a "bad" spell.


Ok so dude goes to Jail for life Bye bye Scumbag. whats interesting tome is all the out right apologizing for this guy and the bemoaning about "lack of understanding by the media" on these "Wiccan" / "Pagan" blogs check out the ass hats at "the wild hunt"

I'm Pagan, and fully as offended by your association of it with Satanism as a Hindu would be if I associated it with Islam.

Fucking religious bigot.

733 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:00:30pm

The time has come.

Let us all enjoy a rousing rendition of Kumbaya.

734 Racer X  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:00:38pm

Sent this to my Senators:

Please show me that you are sincere when you say America is in a recession, and our economy is in danger.

Show me by voting NO on this so called "stimulus package".

The legislation that includes:

$650 million for digital TV coupons.
$600 million for new cars for the federal government.
$6 billion for colleges/universities – many which have billion dollar endowments.
$50 million in funding for the National Endowment of the Arts.
$44 million for repairs to U.S. Department of Agriculture headquarters.
$200 million for the National Mall, including $21 million for sod.


Show me you are sincere and vote NO.

Or, show me that you are in favor of pork spending while the economy is in danger of collapse.

Show me.

735 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:00:39pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Both feelings are from love. Both are right.

736 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:01:53pm

re: #733 karmic_inquisitor

The time has come.

Let us all enjoy a rousing rendition of Kumbaya.


[Video]

only if we sing to *my* Lord, not yours...

/white smoke

737 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:01:54pm

re: #733 karmic_inquisitor

Creepybaya.

738 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:01:59pm

re: #729 Naso Tang

Well, I'm sorry you missed my point, but I do understand that you believe what you can see and nothing more and I mean that in its most literal sense.

Thank you for the clarification (no sarc intended)

But I will repeat a link I had posted somewhere earlier, just in your honor.
How to understand the meaning of theory


"Intelligent Falling Theory". Hilarious and quote apropos .

739 Wishing  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:02:13pm

Goodnight, lizards. Sleep well.
Cya around the bend.

740 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:02:39pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My cousin (53) died yesterday, found out this morning, sunk in this evening. He was severely mentally handicapped. My Aunt and Uncle's lives have revolved around this man for 53 years.

The only time I can ever remember being relieved about a son dying before his parents. Am crushed because I have a double whammy. So, very sad for them, and so relieved for him and I just don't know which is right.

Sorry if I was less fun tonight.

See y'all tomorrow.

{FBV}

741 hazzyday  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:03:40pm

re: #320 karmic_inquisitor

I think his statements today are intended to stoke irrational reactions in order to undermine the freedom of markets (we don't have any free markets except in the illegal sale of drugs). All part of asserting more state control which will lead to conditions that will be exploited to impose yet more state control.

I remember jimmy carter created shortages and lines and high interest rates. he thought he knew better than the economy. Everything he touched seems to have turned to lead.

742 jaunte  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:03:43pm

Goodnight all.

743 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:04:00pm

re: #587 stretch

evolution has to come up with its own proof - something more than wishful thinking while holding a rock.

And it has. Mountains of it. Tsunamis of it. Too much empirical evidence to shake a Disco shill at.

744 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:04:07pm

re: #733 karmic_inquisitor

Now you have done it.

I now have the will and energy to get the Tamarindo and Tequila.

745 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:04:19pm

Me too.

Gnite

You too Stretch.

746 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:05:32pm

re: #689 Walter L. Newton

has anyone noticed that Stretch has ignore this question...

Ggt's first asked the question, I repeated the question, and I am asking it again. Back off from the evolution aspect of this for a moment and simply answer the question above.

Syrah's #687 articulated my thoughts much better than I.

747 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:06:42pm

re: #725 stretch

back to diverging species - looking at a fossil/rock and speculating that its ancestors were genetically divergent is, to me, the epitomy of wishful thinking. And did you happen to comment on different sets of 'artifactual DNA' giving uncompatible phylogeny?

It's amazing how you "knight jump" from one point to another and leaving out all the pertinent details between them. As in...

looking at a fossil/rock and speculating that its ancestors were genetically divergent

First off, there is a lot of science between those two suppositions in your sentence. Second, you dishonestly minimize the outcome by using the word "speculating."

748 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:06:45pm

re: #732 Salamantis

Unless I am mistaken loup-garou means werewolf.

749 LeePro  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:06:45pm

Geez!

I made an off-handed remark about an event in the state up near Lake Michigan and it got whacked!

What's up?

750 DrCruel  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:06:52pm

re: #370 BryanS

I don't consider evolutionary theory a "subjective" belief either. But socialism is a "subjective" belief by comparison to free-market economics, yet Marxist-style socialism is merrily taught in the schools with nary a contrary word. I've seen it so done, in classes on politics and economics that purport to be "scientific". So also, quite subjective theories on "climate change" have become integral to school curricula, even at the grade school level. John Stossel demonstrated the latter quite eloquently during one of his special reports, and was hounded mercilessly because of it. Likewise I see no firestorm amongst the Templars of Faith-Free Science in this regard.

The reason to teach evolutionary theory in the schools is because it is a useful model for understanding the biological record and the differences between species of life forms, but it is hardly a critical element of a basic education. In fact, compared to other learning tasks such as literacy, mathematical calculation, and even geography, the importance of studying the origins of life is minimal. Whether a teacher ought to mention myth systems or not at the beginning of such a class seems to me a hair-splitting business. I would think the teaching of debunked economic theories or dubious factoids regarding the earth sciences would be worthy of much more public concern.

I think I've been reasonable in my opinion, and did quite clearly express my qualms with the present campaign against intelligent design advocates. If there are those who consider me a sly Jesuit, on a subversive campaign to convert enlightened heathens into an intellectual hell of subjective damnation, there's not much more I can say. I've already received an overall negative response, so clearly the idea of protecting people from non-believing evangelicals is not nearly so popular here as is the present anti-Christian campaign.

There are plenty of things I do agree on with the general membership here. The scientific method is something worthy of promoting, as is logic, the use of empirical evidence, and especially the value of maintaining the integrity of same (something that has been done on numerous occasions in this forum). But the people here are apparently not above their own ideological biases, against which comparative justice and logical reason are no defense.

If you want "fighting words", consider the implications of declaring that faith and science have no common ground, and by inference, that those who engage in the former ought to be hounded from public life as well as the scientific community. Would I be unjustified, if I were to infer that this claim was intended to provoke, if not ostracize, foolish primitives such as myself who still cling to so-called "outmoded" Christian ideals?

751 AverageCdn  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:07:08pm

Hey Evolutionists... What about the Platypus? Huh?

Just kidding :D

I think someone hit the nail on the head above that people want some religion to balance out the hippy liberal junk in schools and that two wrongs don't make a right.

I think you can believe in God and believe in evolution. We didn't put a man on the moon powered by faith alone, did we? (ok, you wonderful Americans, but Canada was rooting!)

That's my 2 cents: Science good, religion can be good.

Last point: Proof of God: tons of snow falling while the Goreacle spins global warming in Washington. Playing "Ironic" by Alanis Morrisette.

752 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:07:41pm

re: #744 Syrah

Now you have done it.

I now have the will and energy to get the Tamarindo and Tequila.

Behold the power of transvestites on youtube!

753 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:07:50pm

re: #604 stretch

this is as I have always surmised - that most evolutionists continue to believe what they believe becuase they are philosophically predisposed against any alternative. Scientifically speaking, an alternative does not have to exist - evolution has to stand on its own (and to me, it is a big house of cards, with a lot of research funding and prestige riding on it).

Evolutionary theory stands on its own, and as tall or taller than heliocentrism, quantum mechanics, relativity theory, or any other scientific theory that can be named. Because it's standing on an Everest of empirical evidence.

754 Mich-again  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:08:06pm

What is Blago going to do for a living next?

Ya want fries widdat!

755 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:08:33pm

re: #710 claire

There aren't any fossils that have been found "out of place." Please provide links to the ones you think you know of.

I made that comment to Salamantis, who had made the statement that falsification of evolution would partly be established by the consistent discovery of fossils "out of place". Does that mean that none have ever been found in the 'wrong' strata, or would just one 'out of place' be insufficient? The question was for him, I personally don't know of any.

756 AverageCdn  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:08:51pm

It was Dark Falcon 406, to go with my above point (751)

757 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:09:09pm

Woman says game sends hidden Islamic message

...This mother says she got the Nintendo DS game "Baby Pals" for her little girl. It got good consumer reviews.

She claims when her daughter gave the baby a bath during the game it started repeating "Islam is the light."

758 hazzyday  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:09:10pm

re: #291 stretch

there have been numerous comments on the blog stating that there is "not an iota of evidence for creation" - which makes me wonder then what evidence would be acceptable?

I have mentioned several times that there are two foundations for naturalism/evolutionism, which would be sufficient evidence to prove evolution (and conversely would falsify creation): that life would spontaneously appear from non-life, and that one species of any creature could spontaneously evolve into another species.

So what evidence of creation would be acceptable (and conversely would adequately falsify evolutionism)?

The evidence for creation is the word "creation" It's a conventional language representation of a concept that a group of people can agree on. In some sense that is as close as we can get to it. We might differ if we consider if there is a source for creation or not. Or what the source is. Is it man or God? There is a definite testable difference there.

759 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:10:27pm

re: #752 karmic_inquisitor

Behold the power of transvestites on youtube!

Gagh!

Here. I brought you a glass of Tamarindo and Tequila too. But please, no more videos like that. I don't have anything on hand that is stronger than the Tequila. I am all out of the Everclear.

760 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:10:38pm

re: #754 Mich-again

What is Blago going to do for a living next?

Ya want fries widdat!

maybe a job at the discovery institute.

761 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:11:33pm

re: #759 Syrah

Gagh!

Here. I brought you a glass of Tamarindo and Tequila too. But please, no more videos like that. I don't have anything on hand that is stronger than the Tequila. I am all out of the Everclear.

Got Turpentine?

762 hazzyday  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:11:47pm

re: #750 DrCruel

I don't consider evolutionary theory a "subjective" belief either. But socialism is a "subjective" belief by comparison to free-market economics, yet Marxist-style socialism is merrily taught in the schools with nary a contrary word.

Marxism really a way to be a thug in a government run class.

763 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:12:08pm

re: #755 stretch

I made that comment to Salamantis, who had made the statement that falsification of evolution would partly be established by the consistent discovery of fossils "out of place". Does that mean that none have ever been found in the 'wrong' strata, or would just one 'out of place' be insufficient? The question was for him, I personally don't know of any.

So- you admit you're lying. Why am I not surprised?

764 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:13:06pm

re: #727 BryanS

So have the effects of evolution been observed, but since you have not seen a species transform in front of your eyes, you refuse to acknowledge its evidence. What makes you think the general theory is true--have you personally observed its effects?

Oh, and you still left dangling that tantalizing BS about thermo...we're all waiting to pounce.

That's the whole point - that evolution as a mechanism or theory or whatever for origination of species has not been observed. If you mean that the mere existence of various forms of life are proof of evolution - the same could be said of creation. If you mean that the genetic code has not been perfectly preserved in every species, the same could be said following the creation events.

My first post on this thread was a question regarding the satements that "not one iota" of evidence for creation has been found - I asked what kind of evidence would be acceptable.

And what would you like to know about thermo? That the laws of thermo hold everywhere, all the time?

765 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:14:13pm

re: #761 karmic_inquisitor

Got Turpentine?

No, but the Albuterol that I have to keep on me has a taste that is suggestive thereof. The effects, are not fun. Almost like that video.

766 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:14:21pm

re: #640 stretch

You have falsification backward: a repeatable, observable condition or event must be surmised that, if the event or condition were true, evolution as a theory would be disproved. Without this condition of falsifiability, evolution is not acceptable as a theory.

Check my comment #595.

The claims about e-coli just do not hold up. If e-coli evolves into e-coli, what's the difference?

Yeah, right, shuuure...and if people were suddenly born with blue scaly skin, and could drink arsenic and piss strychnine while running a marathon on the energy they derived from it, that wouldn't be much of a difference, either...

767 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:15:13pm

re: #655 stretch

You said "consistent discovery", yet some have been found out of place. How many would have to be out of place to falsify?

Now you admit you don't know of any, so how can you make this comment? Why should anyone believe anything you have to say after such a blatant lie?

768 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:16:33pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FBV, so sorry to hear about this.

You know, I can kind of relate, in a way: My brother drowned himself when I was in high school (he was 33). He'd had about a fifteen year struggle with paranoid schizophrenia; my parents aged so much during the years they tried, desperately, to help him. It was so difficult for all of us, but especially for them. There were simultaneous feelings of relief and grief among the siblings when it was finally over - relief for our parents, but grief that there was such a tragic ending to the story.

The day we went to clean out his Milwaukee apartment, I found a card I had mailed him, telling him how much I loved him. It had been slid under the door. He never got to see it.

Anyway...I think it's very possible for the two emotions to coexist.

So sorry.

769 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:17:10pm

re: #745 Naso Tang

Me too.

Gnite

You too Stretch.

have a good one.

770 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:17:15pm

re: #765 Syrah

No, but the Albuterol that I have to keep on me has a taste that is suggestive thereof. The effects, are not fun. Almost like that video.

It takes an over the top song and does it over the top. IMO, it takes a good actor to pull off mockery of bad acting.

771 claire  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:18:15pm

re: #764 stretch

And what would you like to know about thermo?

Specifically what you epiphany you had in that class that turned you into a creationist, as you referred to earlier...

772 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:18:26pm

re: #764 stretch

That's the whole point - that evolution as a mechanism or theory or whatever for origination of species has not been observed.

actually, that's not true... species have been observed as they evolve.

773 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:18:48pm

re: #754 Mich-again

What is Blago going to do for a living next?

Ya want fries widdat!

He'll write a book.

774 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:18:53pm

re: #750 DrCruel

The reason to teach evolutionary theory in the schools is because it is a useful model for understanding the biological record and the differences between species of life forms, but it is hardly a critical element of a basic education.

I disagree. A factual teaching of science is critical to our children's understanding and education beyond high school.

775 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:19:32pm

re: #763 Sharmuta

So- you admit you're lying. Why am I not surprised?

I don't know how you read that into what I wrote - but after all of this, I still havn't heard what YOU would consider to be acceptable evidence for creation.

776 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:19:49pm

re: #655 stretch

You said "consistent discovery", yet some have been found out of place. How many would have to be out of place to falsify?

Just one, that was videotaped being unearthed from strata where the record demonstrated that creationists didn't plant it there.

As far as vastly different species possessing identical DNA: pick two humans. No wait, that doesn't work...

No it doesn't.

No genetic material for a living organsim? But of course, that would be the rock that decided to come alive. Cause and effect.

Show me this living, DNAless rock. Or else try to get that rock between your ears to come alive. Because that comeback was so lame it must be paraplegic.

777 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:20:27pm

re: #26 Thanos

This is a good comeback by Ken, and it was deserved. Coyne makes the same mistake many atheists do - extrapolating what they do know to explain things they can't possibly know yet in an effort to really bolster their own world view. I'm an atheist, my view is that God is possible, but the chances are slim. I am the first to admit that I don't know, and I'm comfortable with "I don't know for sure" since what we don't know so far outweighs what we do. It's hubristic and also weak-knead atheism to smack down religion when you can't possibly know anymore than those who are religious can possibly know for sure. It's a disavowal of the very empiricism Coyne admires.

Thanos, based on your self-described views, I'd say your "beliefs" or lack thereof, could be better categorized as agnosticism rather than atheism. I'd place myself in the agnostic camp myself. I consider that belief in no deity whatsoever is every bit as much an article of faith as is belief in the deity of your choice. Neither instance is testable or falsifiable.

778 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:20:45pm

re: #750 DrCruel


The reason to teach evolutionary theory in the schools is because it is a useful model for understanding the biological record and the differences between species of life forms, but it is hardly a critical element of a basic education. In fact, compared to other learning tasks such as literacy, mathematical calculation, and even geography, the importance of studying the origins of life is minimal. Whether a teacher ought to mention myth systems or not at the beginning of such a class seems to me a hair-splitting business. I would think the teaching of debunked economic theories or dubious factoids regarding the earth sciences would be worthy of much more public concern.

...

If you want "fighting words", consider the implications of declaring that faith and science have no common ground, and by inference, that those who engage in the former ought to be hounded from public life as well as the scientific community. Would I be unjustified, if I were to infer that this claim was intended to provoke, if not ostracize, foolish primitives such as myself who still cling to so-called "outmoded" Christian ideals?

Agreed with most of what you say here, however considering that evolution is only taught for a rather brief amount of time in the course of a full year of biology (we're talking a few weeks comprising say 20 hours of class time out of say 20,000 of class time a student has from grade school through high school), I think the amount of political resistance to its teaching disproportionate to any perceived threat to religion.

Regarding my comment about calling evolution subjective "fighting words", it was just a quip that recognized how against the grain (reasonable and polite though it was) your post was. Earlier in the thread, you will have noticed I was getting criticized for stating that atheists who "know" there is no god are basing that on an article of faith.

779 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:20:45pm

re: #770 karmic_inquisitor

It takes an over the top song and does it over the top. IMO, it takes a good actor to pull off mockery of bad acting.

So there is hope for William Shatner after all.

780 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:21:27pm

re: #775 stretch

I don't know how you read that into what I wrote - but after all of this, I still havn't heard what YOU would consider to be acceptable evidence for creation.

Let's turn this around. What would you find acceptable for evidence of creation?

781 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:21:53pm

re: #774 Sharmuta

I disagree. A factual teaching of science is critical to our children's understanding and education beyond high school.

He probably won't answer you. He has had about 10 questions put to him, and he has only answered one to BryanS, and it was just another one of his long essays.

782 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:22:30pm

re: #773 capitalist piglet

He'll write a book.

with Bill Ayer's help?

783 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:23:49pm

re: #779 Syrah

So there is hope for William Shatner after all.

I am a professional vocalist (R&B), and I LOVE The Transformed Man. I can't get enough of that thing. I used to have my wake-to-CD alarm clock loaded with "Mr. Tambourine Man".

784 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:24:31pm

re: #783 capitalist piglet

I am a professional vocalist (R&B), and I LOVE The Transformed Man. I can't get enough of that thing. I used to have my wake-to-CD alarm clock loaded with "Mr. Tambourine Man".

Image: McGuinn_concert_081109_179.jpg

785 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:24:32pm

re: #782 redc1c4

with Bill Ayer's help?

There's an idea. Watch for maritime references.

786 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:03pm

re: #771 claire

Specifically what you epiphany you had in that class that turned you into a creationist, as you referred to earlier...

actually, I said my eyes began to open. It become clear to me that I had been misled by educators who professed to have clear evidence for evolutionary mechanisms, but could not bring those evidences forward when asked.

As far as thermodynamics - the first law, simply stated, is that matter and energy are conserved quantities. In those terms, the concept of a "big bang" as the only supernatural, singular event, to have ever occured (way way back in the past) was far-fetched.
The second law, regarding every reaction increasing the number of probably states, or the increase in entropy, speaks to a system (open or closed) that will not decrease in entropy (or experience a spontaneous reduction in the number of probable states).

787 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:08pm

re: #779 Syrah

So there is hope for William Shatner after all.

LOL.

So that got me looking for Triumph the Insult Comic Dog's "Shatner!" interview.

Could not find it.

Found this instead.

788 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:12pm

re: #677 Mich-again

...start carving on rocks.

789 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:22pm
790 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:37pm

re: #732 Salamantis
Hello Sal. It is sometimes difficult for me to know when someone is being sarcastic. Yet you left no sarc tag there, and I therefore wonder why you consider lour garou as a fucking religious bigot, being as you're a Pagan (I assume not of the Outlaw Motorcycle gang of the same name) and what he linked to was a site which referred to "experts" who are Pagans, others who are Wiccans. Why does that make him a fucking religious bigot?
Also, as a self-describe Pagan, would you please tell me what your opinion is of this:[Pagan]The term has been defined broadly, to encompass all of the religions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.[2] The group so defined includes most of the Eastern religions, Native American religions and mythologies, as well as non-Abrahamic ethnic religions in general. More narrow definitions will not include any of the world religions and restrict the term to local or rural currents not organized as civil religions. Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice.[3]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] [emphasis added realwest]

791 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:40pm

re: #662 stretch

no, i'm not. Evolution has not been observed by anyone to create a new species. If you know of a new species that was observed to evolve from another species, please give an example.

It takes thousands upon thousands of generations for species to evolutionarily diverge to the point that they cannot interbreed. If you can find a human that can live long enough to observe that in any but microorganismic life, they must have discovered the Fountain of Youth that Ponce de Leon missed.

But the DNA evidence proves evolutionary divergence and speciation fully as much as it proves that OJ knifed Ron and Nicole.

792 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:25:49pm

re: #783 capitalist piglet

Mr. Tambourine Man

793 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:26:03pm

re: #764 stretch

That's the whole point - that evolution as a mechanism or theory or whatever for origination of species has not been observed. If you mean that the mere existence of various forms of life are proof of evolution - the same could be said of creation. If you mean that the genetic code has not been perfectly preserved in every species, the same could be said following the creation events.

My first post on this thread was a question regarding the satements that "not one iota" of evidence for creation has been found - I asked what kind of evidence would be acceptable.

And what would you like to know about thermo? That the laws of thermo hold everywhere, all the time?

You really don't like directly answering questions, do you? Why do you believe the general theory of relativity and its modifications to gravity is true? Have you actually observed its affects? If not, then you have just as much basis to believe that as you would to believe evolution. Need I remind you of your tempting pre-canard tease:


re: #541 stretch

But what I know to be wrong is evoutionism. I learned it, beleived it, and espoused it, as vehemently as any, until late into a college career. One course in thermodynamics began to open my eyes.


So, my question oh teacher is not to learn about thermo from you, but to learn what in particular about thermo struck you so hard as to shake your supposedly once firm belief in evolution,

794 LeePro  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:26:10pm

re: #749 LeePro

Geez!

I made an off-handed remark about an event in the state up near Lake Michigan and it got whacked!

What's up?

re: #754 Mich-again

What is Blago going to do for a living next?

Ya want fries widdat!

How come you can say that name and I got whacked (#646) for it?

795 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:26:58pm

re: #790 realwest
PIMF: loup not lour.

796 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:27:49pm

re: #776 Salamantis

Show me this living, DNAless rock. Or else try to get that rock between your ears to come alive. Because that comeback was so lame it must be paraplegic.

Really? You would believe just one fossil out of place, and your whole world would come crashing down, rejecting all of evolutionary theory as so much garble?

The point I was making about two different species having identical DNA, is that the would not then be different species. Or of a living thing not having DNA - that could be any rock.

797 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:29:45pm

re: #790 realwest

Hello Sal. It is sometimes difficult for me to know when someone is being sarcastic. Yet you left no sarc tag there, and I therefore wonder why you consider lour garou as a fucking religious bigot, being as you're a Pagan (I assume not of the Outlaw Motorcycle gang of the same name) and what he linked to was a site which referred to "experts" who are Pagans, others who are Wiccans. Why does that make him a fucking religious bigot?
Also, as a self-describe Pagan, would you please tell me what your opinion is of this:[Pagan]The term has been defined broadly, to encompass all of the religions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.[2] The group so defined includes most of the Eastern religions, Native American religions and mythologies, as well as non-Abrahamic ethnic religions in general. More narrow definitions will not include any of the world religions and restrict the term to local or rural currents not organized as civil religions. Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice.[3]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] [emphasis added realwest]

Well calling a Satanic murderer a Wiccan and referring to Wiccans as asshats sounds pretty fucking bigoted to me. And Satanism is not Pagan; it depends upon Christianity to exist as its correlative opposite.

The definition sounds pretty good to me.

798 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:30:34pm

re: #787 karmic_inquisitor

LOL.

So that got me looking for Triumph the Insult Comic Dog's "Shatner!" interview.

Could not find it.

Found this instead.

I think I have hired a few of those guys.

799 ggt  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:31:00pm

weet dreams all!

800 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:31:06pm

re: #779 Syrah
LOL! Hi Syrah. No, he said it takes a very good actor to pull off a mockery of bad acting.

801 LeePro  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:31:14pm

: : : tap tap : : :

Hello...?

802 ladycatnip  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:32:35pm

Thank you Charles, for linking the responses of Miller and Giberson. Both articulated their positions very well.

#750 DrCruel - well said.

Reading a great book - Physics of the Impossible, by Michio Kaku, who one day will hopefully discover "the theory of everything."

803 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:32:40pm

got quiet in here all of a sudden. Everyone refreshing their drinks or something?

804 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:33:10pm

re: #675 hazzyday

A looney tune. Sad that he was allowed to associate with children. Drawn to wicca so he can pervert his self interest behind a disquise.

You could say the same for pederasts drawn to the priesthood, or to the Boy Scouts. That doesn't make the priesthood or the Boy Scouts bad.

805 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:33:41pm

re: #801 LeePro

: : : tap tap : : :

Hello...?

What did you do? Give out old Blago's phone # on LGF?

806 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:34:38pm

re: #803 BlueCanuck

got quiet in here all of a sudden. Everyone refreshing their drinks or something?

I'm eating some oatmeal.

807 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:34:40pm

re: #793 BryanS

So, my question oh teacher is not to learn about thermo from you, but to learn what in particular about thermo struck you so hard as to shake your supposedly once firm belief in evolution,

No, I have not personally observed the effects of relativity, though some effects can be observed in a repeatable fashion. The simple fact is that adherents to evolutionism believe that evolution is a scientifically proven fact, but the mechanism, such as survival of the fittest, is the only 'theory'. Comparing this concept of scientific theory to the effects of gravity is the objectionable minimization.

I just posted on thermo - i'll get back to that

808 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:34:56pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My sister who had suffered from oxygen starvation during birth died last year at 39, she never sat up, talked, walked, ate on her own, or lived as we would assume to be normal. But, my mom never gave up and kept her at home, tried everything to keep her alive, waited on her hand & foot.

For me, my parents are finally remembering what it means to live.
For them, their angel is gone...

809 itellu3times  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:35:14pm

re: #710 claire

There aren't any fossils that have been found "out of place." Please provide links to the ones you think you know of.

I believe it is quite common for fossils to be found out of place, a stream might wash some petrified bones down into a pond where it gets mixed with new stuff and burried for another ten million years.

810 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:35:28pm

re: #786 stretch


As far as thermodynamics - the first law, simply stated, is that matter and energy are conserved quantities. In those terms, the concept of a "big bang" as the only supernatural, singular event, to have ever occured (way way back in the past) was far-fetched.
The second law, regarding every reaction increasing the number of probably states, or the increase in entropy, speaks to a system (open or closed) that will not decrease in entropy (or experience a spontaneous reduction in the number of probable states).

Why would the big bang be far fetched because of conservation of energy? BTW, you stated conservation of energy and mass, though I assume you meant mass in the context of energy-mass equivalence .

Your understanding of the second law is flawed. Entropy of the universe does increase even if the system does not. Water freezing to ice in the fridge decreases the entropy of the water, but the surroundings of the freezer have a greater increase of entropy than lost in the water. Biological systems (humans in particular) are quite efficient at wasting energy--our existence seems to be doing quite a good job at increasing the entropy of the universe.

811 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:35:30pm

re: #678 stretch

I think that comes on a bit thick, when Gravity is compared to evolution. Like evolution of a species is just as evident and obvious as say, an apple falling from a tree. They are both theories right? and we can see apples fall, right?

And we can witness Lenski's e coli evolving the ability to metabolize citric acid. All he has to do is thaw out some of the saved batch and slap 'em in the retort.

812 DrCruel  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:35:38pm

re: #751 AverageCdn

I think someone hit the nail on the head above that people want some religion to balance out the hippy liberal junk in schools and that two wrongs don't make a right.

Agreed. Besides, given the track record of the schools, teachers would merely muck up the religious and secular faiths even worse than they already are.

I'd just as soon have them get the basics ingrained in their students first. It would make the remedial algebra tutoring sessions I run so much easier. Knowing the evolutionary relationship between birds and lizards is all well and good, but I'd much rather pupils know how a principal, percentage rate and interest accrued are related. At the very least, people working in the SEC ought to be informed.

813 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:37:01pm

Hot Air Headlines...

Account of Israeli attack doesn't hold up to scrutiny

Physical evidence and interviews with several eyewitnesses, including a teacher who was in the schoolyard at the time of the shelling, make it clear: While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed. The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate.

While the killing of 43 civilians on the street may itself be grounds for investigation, it falls short of the act of shooting into a schoolyard crowded with refuge-seekers.

814 claire  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:37:08pm

Acceptable evidence for creation: Hmm...

Finding a species on earth today that is so unique in every way, the way it reproduces, how it ambles (24 suction pods on 9 foot tall "leg bones" not made of calcium and minerals, but metals and ice) covered in a colony of fluffy parasite creatures that keep it frozen, that finds it's food (popsicles and liquid LN2) through ESP... AND has no other living relatives in the animal world, does not share ANY genetic sequences or body chemistry with any other living thing, nor is there a trail of ANY fossils that have ever been found that resemble said creature, and this creature, the very first one on earth (it reproduces asexually, so only one needed) poofs into existence in a shower of sparks in the middle of New York City whilst being filmed by National Geographic channel.

Works for me...

815 Salem  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:37:44pm

re: #85 ArchangelMichael

Why silly? When someone says 'I don't believe in God' they are basically claiming to know an answer to an unanswerable or unknowable question. That sounds like faith to me, regardless of whether it makes them feel uncomfortable using the word. They have no problem with saying 'believe' or 'don't believe'. That right there screams 'based on faith not evidence'.

There is no empirical definition of what exactly god is, therefore there cannot be a definition of what constitutes evidence for the existence or non-existence of god. Therefore claiming affirmative on one side or the other is basically faith, but not necessarily religion.

You're just arguing semantics. You say I believe there is no god while I counter that I see no compelling evidence for the existence of a god. Nothing could be more natural than not being compelled to believe in something. It requires no tortured inner struggle or need to define what I believe.

816 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:38:33pm

re: #814 claire

Sounds simple, but what if it's an alien life form?

817 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:39:48pm

re: #810 BryanS

Why would the big bang be far fetched because of conservation of energy? BTW, you stated conservation of energy and mass, though I assume you meant mass in the context of energy-mass equivalence .

Your understanding of the second law is flawed. Entropy of the universe does increase even if the system does not. Water freezing to ice in the fridge decreases the entropy of the water, but the surroundings of the freezer have a greater increase of entropy than lost in the water. Biological systems (humans in particular) are quite efficient at wasting energy--our existence seems to be doing quite a good job at increasing the entropy of the universe.


You don't see all of space/matter/time popping into existence, without cause, a bit far fetched?
And the second law speaks to increase of entropy for a system and its surroundings - the surroundings mus always be included. For a system to decrease in entropy requires a pre-existent thermal engine of some kind, such as photosynthesis.

818 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:40:56pm

re: #797 Salamantis Ah, my bad - I read your link where you quoted him and thought that quote was from the link itself, not from him.
I shoulda gone back to his original post. I apologize.

However, in the Wiki commentary, it says that Pagans "living mythology which explains religious practice.[3]" Does that refer to a non-written mythology which explains relgious practices - living here being - perhaps incorrectly - interpreted by me as the same thing as an "oral tradition" such as that of the First Americans (incorrectly referred to as Native Americans)?

819 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:41:23pm

re: #816 BlueCanuck

Sounds simple, but what if it's an alien life form?

At that point, I'd leave the discussion about g-d until after the clean up. I'd be booking it.

820 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:41:34pm

re: #695 stretch

There must be a mistake in the stats, because I did post a link on Ota Benga, the african pygmy that was put on display at a zoo by some evolutionists (after his family was slaughtered).

No, he was put on display by some sick carnival barkers after quick bucks. Prove to me that those people were primarily evolutionary theorists rather than greedy cynical opportunists.

821 stretch  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:42:35pm

going off line for now - thanks all for the discussion

822 LeePro  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:43:07pm

re: #805 Pvt Bin Jammin

What did you do? Give out old Blago's phone # on LGF?

hahahaha[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

No. The content of the [DELETED] #646 was basically the same as this one on an earlier thread, with a few extra "blah blah blahs" thrown in.

My ears are still ringing...! The comment didn't even appear! It just sorta flashed and showed up [deleted].

Charles, please tell me what I did!

823 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:43:49pm

re: #814 claire

Acceptable evidence for creation: Hmm...

Finding a species on earth today that is so unique in every way, the way it reproduces, how it ambles (24 suction pods on 9 foot tall "leg bones" not made of calcium and minerals, but metals and ice) covered in a colony of fluffy parasite creatures that keep it frozen, that finds it's food (popsicles and liquid LN2) through ESP... AND has no other living relatives in the animal world, does not share ANY genetic sequences or body chemistry with any other living thing, nor is there a trail of ANY fossils that have ever been found that resemble said creature, and this creature, the very first one on earth (it reproduces asexually, so only one needed) poofs into existence in a shower of sparks in the middle of New York City whilst being filmed by National Geographic channel.

Works for me...

with no DNA/RNA what so ever...

824 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:44:42pm

re: #820 Salamantis

No, he was put on display by some sick carnival barkers after quick bucks. Prove to me that those people were primarily evolutionary theorists rather than greedy cynical opportunists.

Vue Deja - I don't think we've been her before.

Geeessshhh. Is there really a human at the other end, using the screen name STRETCH, because either there isn't, there is and he/she has a memory problem or there is and he/she is so dishonest that he/she will continue to post the same dribble as if it is fresh and new and has never been addressed before.

What a tool.

825 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:45:30pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

The answer is still 42.

826 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:45:33pm

re: #700 slokat

Sheesh don't stretch statistics...

You sound like some of the posters that you wouldn't spend time even reading when you make that analogy.

I'll pretend I never read that.

Calculate one in...three billion (base pair sites) times a thousand(different artifactual retroviral sequences) times an undetermined but large number (distinguishable-by-genetic-degradation times that infection and splicing in could have occurred).

827 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:46:22pm

re: #817 stretch

You don't see all of space/matter/time popping into existence, without cause, a bit far fetched?
And the second law speaks to increase of entropy for a system and its surroundings - the surroundings mus always be included. For a system to decrease in entropy requires a pre-existent thermal engine of some kind, such as photosynthesis.

I thought you believed in the general theory or relativity? If you believe that sci-fi magic, certainly you believe the special theory of relativity which Einstein showed equates energy to mass E=mc^2. Simply put, mass can come from energy and vice versa. So the big bang is not ruled out by the first law.

You obviously did not understand what I said about the second law of thermo. The system can have a decrease in entropy by increasing the entropy of its surroundings more than that lost by the system. You cite photosynthesis as an example o increasing entropy--as I said, biological systems are great in increasing entropy. Therefore, the example you cited of photosynthesis is a great explanation for why the second law of thermodynamics favors evolution.

Point. Set. Match.

Thanx for playing.

828 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:47:00pm

re: #822 LeePro

Well, he is "gone" from the governor's office, that's for sure. It was a unanimous vote.

829 claire  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:47:07pm

re: #816 BlueCanuck

Hmmm...

830 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:47:21pm

re: #825 Shr_Nfr

The answer is still 42.

I asked about those number because, well, see my #271

831 itellu3times  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:48:09pm

re: #791 Salamantis

It takes thousands upon thousands of generations for species to evolutionarily diverge to the point that they cannot interbreed.

Maybe not so many, if two groups are isolated and drift in different directions.

But we don't want to lose the point in the details, let's get back to gravity. The effects of gravity are evident, the effects of evolution are evident, the exact mechanism of each is similarly unknown, in fact gravity is in many ways still the greater mystery.

A detailed description of the effects, is not a causal story. This is often lost in theoretical discussions - because some people will disagree with me on it. In fact, "empiricism" is in some views just the idea that all anyone can ever do, is describe effects, never causes, because there is ALWAYS room for skepticism that any theory explains any effect. Science is all about suspending that skepticism, for good and sufficient reasons, which are never perfect and complete reasons. Never.

Stretch may treasure his ignorance all he likes, he can doubt that two plus two is four, he can doubt that the sun rises in the east, the beauty of his position is that he doubts all his own words, and so he doubts yours. His belief is disconnected from all words and argument. He has chosen what to believe and what to doubt, and among his doubts are all that other people look at as science. He has no excuse at all, for believing in any scientific theory. Fortunately for him, science is true or not true, without his believing in it, or I suppose he might fall up into space, and be shocked at the absence of air once he got there, since nobody had proven it to him in advance. I don't really mean to mock him, either, I suppose it's a lovely way to live, and there's no law against it.

832 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:48:11pm

re: #714 stretch

some effects of the general theory have been observed of course. The point is of course that the bases of evolution have not been observed. TO compare to gravity is quite a reach.

Mutations have been observed. So has environmental selection. And probably more than gravitational lensing.

833 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:51:44pm

re: #724 slokat

I think I defined the terms quite exactly there, why the sidestep?

I didn't sidestep the question; I answered it. The wider one's circle of concern, the more people reside within it that one is willing to put oneself ourt for.

834 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:52:20pm

re: #805 Pvt Bin Jammin
Hey, hi there PBJ! Thank you for the e-mail, it is greatly appreciated.
Someone waay upthread (or maybe on a different thread) asked where Blago was going to spend the night, now that he's no longer governor. I thought that was a silly question but it's popped up a couple of times now, so this seemed to be a good place to answer it: he is staying an a very nice Hotel Suite, awaiting his appointment with Fitz tomorrow morning!

835 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:52:26pm

re: #833 Salamantis

I didn't sidestep the question; I answered it. The wider one's circle of concern, the more people reside within it that one is willing to put oneself ourt for.

OT - your avatar, anyone in particular?

836 LeePro  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:53:10pm

re: #828 Pvt Bin Jammin

Well, he is "gone" from the governor's office, that's for sure. It was a unanimous vote.

Exactly! ! !

Which is what I meant by Bla-GONE → e.g. "left the building!"

And that gets me whacked? ? ?

837 claire  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:54:07pm

re: #836 LeePro

Maybe it was just a mistake?

838 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:54:33pm

re: #836 LeePro

Exactly! ! !

Which is what I meant by Bla-GONE → e.g. "left the building!"

And that gets me whacked? ? ?

Huh...I saw that comment too...that was deleted? That's confuzzing.

839 claire  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:55:45pm

A premature e-whack-ulation.

/time for sleep...

840 Syrah  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:56:09pm

I am turning in for the night fellow Lizards.

As always, its been fun.

I will leave you all with a fun little video.

William Shatner - Rocket man

. . . I think its going to be a long long time till touch down brings me round again. . .

At least until tomorrow.

Goodnight.

841 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:56:35pm

re: #725 stretch

back to diverging species - looking at a fossil/rock and speculating that its ancestors were genetically divergent is, to me, the epitomy of wishful thinking. And did you happen to comment on different sets of 'artifactual DNA' giving uncompatible phylogeny?

You look at living species and know that they are evolutionarily diverged, along with related species, from common ancestors. You've got it bass ackwards. And yes, I commented on your assertion concerning "different sets of artifactual DNA giving uncompatible phylogeny". You're wrong. They don't. And it's INcompatible. Not UN.

842 itellu3times  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:58:12pm

re: #814 claire

Acceptable evidence for creation: Hmm...

Just as a historical note, Darwinian evolution was not widely accepted in the nineteenth century, was losing popularity, exactly because nobody had any evidence for how it could be true!

Mendelian genetics was rediscovered (!) circa 1900 and gave evolution a big boost, and DNA was recognized as being the likely locus, until the spiral structure was finally resolved in 1955, molecular biology only started out circa 1970, and today we can isolate chromosomes, genes, and even engineer some simple new traits from scratch. It is very much the same story as what it took for people to really believe in atoms. The idea of elements had been around for centuries, but it was very, very fuzzy what was an atom, versus a molecule, way into the twentieth century - and apparently it is still somewhat fuzzy. But, once the electron, proton and neutron were worked out, by the 1920s, it was clear what were and were not atoms. You had to be a real yutz after that, to argue that atoms were unprovable, not real. Quantum chromodynamics wasn't worked out until the 1980s, and there are still plenty of questions left.

So, what was the question? Oh yeah, evidence for "creation". Silly question. What evidence can you ask for, that your Mazda Miata was produced by magic, rather than in a factory?

843 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:58:49pm

re: #836 LeePro

Exactly! ! !

Which is what I meant by Bla-GONE → e.g. "left the building!"

And that gets me whacked? ? ?

just to safe, i reported this one too...

/white smoke

844 realwest  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:59:02pm

Well y'all I'm gonna go to sleep too. I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/ERLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

845 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:59:35pm

re: #730 Mich-again

Bad example. A hermit crab's shell is more about self defense than just concealing the privates.

Umm...there are human indigenous tribes that don't bother with covering their genitalia.

846 BlueCanuck  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:59:57pm

Night realwest, have a nice warm rest.

847 Gitarzan  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:00:43pm

My G-d, proof that there's some (more) people in the People's Republic of California that are not libs:

I have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed hearing so much common sense in one 8-minute YT video...thumbs up to MachoSauce!

848 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:00:55pm

re: #834 realwest

Yep, he's in a hotel suite alright. LOL

Thanks for your kind e-mails, too, Realwest, and all the best to you.

849 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:02:29pm

re: #296 swamprat

Cats are only an analogy; When you deal with something beyond comprehension, it is beyond comprehension. A cat, (or a squirrel) would not "do" a Rubik's cube. Nothing to do with cats, or squirrels, or even religion. It is a general principle that when people strive to understand a foreign concept, they can only understand it in their terms.( I couldn't find a picture of a buffalo working a crossword puzzle.)

I think it's a vast over-simplification to state that we would not recognize alien artifacts, should they fall into out hands. Look at the artifacts of our own technology. Everything from a simple hammer to a particle accelerator or a laptop computer.

Hand a laptop computer, and a hammer to a Neanderthal man, and he might be totally mystified by the computer, but he would likely be delighted with the hammer, and instantly see its utility, all the while marvelling at the strange material (steel) comprising its head.

No doubt advanced alien races, should they exist, would still have such mundane things as hammers and paper clips in their technological bag of tricks, simply because such things are useful.

Bottom line is: we might recognize some alien technology, where it parallels our own. We might also recognize some alien artifacts as products of technology without necessarily fully understanding their purpose or function. Neanderthal Man might not intuit the purpose of a laptop computer, but he likely would deduce that it was made either by a man or by a god.

850 redc1c4  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:02:47pm

isn't about time for the LNDT to be created?

851 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:03:25pm

re: #836 LeePro

Exactly! ! !

Which is what I meant by Bla-GONE → e.g. "left the building!"

And that gets me whacked? ? ?

I don't get it, LeePro. Gone just means left the room or something. I don't think of it as anything like "you'se gonna be a gonna, you sob!" LOL

852 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:04:33pm

re: #850 redc1c4

I am so overly ready I might just have # 4 or at least the 3.5. LOL

853 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:05:16pm

re: #826 Salamantis

So, you have a way to decode all those base pairs, beyond the few that are studied?

Do you use water inversion, or Gaussian pulsing?

854 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:05:20pm

re: #748 Mich-again

Unless I am mistaken loup-garou means werewolf.

Yep. And vrkolak means vampire.

855 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:06:10pm

I'm moving on up...>

856 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:07:29pm

re: #833 Salamantis

I didn't sidestep the question; I answered it. The wider one's circle of concern, the more people reside within it that one is willing to put oneself ourt for.

Which is a politician's non-answer.

857 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:09:07pm

re: #755 stretch

I made that comment to Salamantis, who had made the statement that falsification of evolution would partly be established by the consistent discovery of fossils "out of place". Does that mean that none have ever been found in the 'wrong' strata, or would just one 'out of place' be insufficient? The question was for him, I personally don't know of any.

There haven't been any. And one would be sufficient, if it was properly validated and verified. Unlike dogmatic religion, empirical science is no respecter of miracles.

858 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:10:34pm

re: #856 slokat

Which is a politician's non-answer.

No it's not. It's a fucking straightfoward, clear and concise answer, penetrating to the beating heart of the damned question, and plumbing its pulsing marrow.

859 LeePro  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:11:06pm

re: #837 claire

Maybe it was just a mistake?

Not.


re: #838 BryanS

Huh...I saw that comment too...that was deleted? That's confuzzing.

I don't know how you could see the one here (#646), because in an absolute, visible "flick" I saw it disappear the instant I posted it!

The other one (#79 on the Blago thread) is still there.

860 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:11:18pm

re: #853 slokat

forgot the sarc tag... even though I really nneded a half/sarc tag, or a tongue in/sarc tag.

;)

861 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:12:36pm

re: #16 Gang of One

At the risk of invoking the ire of so many, I'll never understand how having faith in a Creator is tantamount to be anti-science, and being a scientist means one must reject a Creator. I just don't get it. But I', stupid, I guess -- I believe the they are not mutually exclusive.

/let the bashing begin ...

No bashing here. There is no reason that scientists cannot do good scientific work, all the while believing along the lines of Miller's essay.

I can see the quarrel that evolution provokes. People who want evolution and astronomy OUT BY GOD of the classroom are American Taliban. They strike at the hopes and future of my family and my country. How shall we exist in a competitive world if we can't get an education?

But whyever fuss about who believes in God? Even a nonbeliever can see, if he's data driven, that Christians make good neighbors. The LAST thing scientific rationalists should be doing is conducting purges and ferreting out heresy.

862 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:13:32pm

re: #339 stretch

I've heard this put forward as a possibility, but as falsfication would not be repeatable or verifiable. And of course the claims of "upthrusts" would be made, or inversion of strata.
I seem to recall that some fossils have been found 'out of place' in various types of strata.

PreCambrian rock is preCambrian rock, whether it is upthrust (e.g. Colorado Rockies) or not.

One of the ways geologists recognize inverted or displaced strata is by dating them based on the fossils contained therein. Put it another way: evolution is a useful tool that enables us to (correctly) solve geological puzzles.

Look up the term: index fossil.

863 slokat  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:13:46pm

re: #858 Salamantis

No it's not. It's a fucking straightfoward, clear and concise answer, penetrating to the beating heart of the damned question, and plumbing its pulsing marrow.

cool

...you still evaded the issue through hyperbole, but I'll let it rest

864 freetoken  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:16:51pm

re: #817 stretch

You don't see all of space/matter/time popping into existence, without cause, a bit far fetched?

Perhaps you may not be aware of this, but contemporary physics allows for (and some physicists strongly argue for) the eternal existence of space (e.g., Euclidean space such as the three dimensions with which we are familiar.) Therefore the three dimensions of our existence very well may not have come about due to "the big bang".

Similarly for time, though it is a more difficult topic.

Contemporary cosmology deals with all of these issues, including the possible of pre-existing other universes, etc.

The problem we face is that we are limited to our observation of electromagnetic radiation (light) only so far back... i.e., the cosmic background radiation (CBR) is as far back (in time) that we can look.

The LHC might give us clues as to what came before the time that the CBR was emitted.


And the second law speaks to increase of entropy for a system and its surroundings - the surroundings mus always be included. For a system to decrease in entropy requires a pre-existent thermal engine of some kind, such as photosynthesis.

Which indeed is the whole point. If you claim that life somehow decreases entropy and thus could not come about through existing chemical processes, then you've ignored that the whole earth increases entropy in the universe as it absorbs light from the sun and then radiates other light at longer wavelengths.

865 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:17:51pm

re: #859 LeePro

I remembered the post...frequent "new post" updating...and yes I saw it. I specifically remember the bla-gone-ovich comment. This topic was the first of those today I even looked at, so i am sure I didn't just remember it from earlier. I bet it was a software glitch--doesn't a "comment deleted" trace stay behind when comments are removed for whatever reason?

866 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:19:19pm

re: #777 Alberta Oil Peon

Thanos, based on your self-described views, I'd say your "beliefs" or lack thereof, could be better categorized as agnosticism rather than atheism. I'd place myself in the agnostic camp myself. I consider that belief in no deity whatsoever is every bit as much an article of faith as is belief in the deity of your choice. Neither instance is testable or falsifiable.

Then you are reading me wrong. I can't believe that God exists, but I admit I could be mistaken. By small chance of existence, it's on the same end of the possibilty spectrum for me as Basho's unicorn on Pluto.

867 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:21:10pm

re: #764 stretch

That's the whole point - that evolution as a mechanism or theory or whatever for origination of species has not been observed. If you mean that the mere existence of various forms of life are proof of evolution - the same could be said of creation. If you mean that the genetic code has not been perfectly preserved in every species, the same could be said following the creation events.

But it HAS been observed, by Richard Lenski, among others. And the existence of various forms of life containing DNA that indicates divergence from common ancestors is evidence of evolution and speciation, not of separate as-is creation.

What is this obfuscating tripe about 'perfectly preserved' genetic codes? They don't get preserved, they evolve. That's why their copying fidelity, although high, is not perfect. If it were perfect, the species COULD'NT evolve, and would go extinct whenever the environment became intolerable, however long this took.

My first post on this thread was a question regarding the satements that "not one iota" of evidence for creation has been found - I asked what kind of evidence would be acceptable.

And I provided it. Comment # 595. And you had only snark for my list, and no substance.

And what would you like to know about thermo? That the laws of thermo hold everywhere, all the time?

Except that complexity can increas in open systems, that receive matter or energy from outside. Like the terrestrial biosphere, that receives energy from the sun.

868 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:23:09pm

If I had to guess, Leepro, the "blaw blaw blaw" may have been interpreted as you find this topic boring- which I believe Charles is tired of hearing.

869 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:25:38pm

re: #775 stretch

I don't know how you read that into what I wrote - but after all of this, I still havn't heard what YOU would consider to be acceptable evidence for creation.

You've already been given MY list. And you simply bug HER for one in a futile attempt to distract attention from the lie she caught you in.

870 BryanS  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:30:23pm

re: #869 Salamantis

You've already been given MY list. And you simply bug HER for one in a futile attempt to distract attention from the lie she caught you in.

Stretch is all hot air and no substance...he apparently holds firmly to his beliefs, but really is insecure and afraid to really test them by answering questions in a straight manner.

871 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:33:57pm

re: #775 stretch

I still havn't heard what YOU would consider to be acceptable evidence for creation.

Well- that's partially because I'm not interested in playing your little game. I asked if you were really asking for a way to disprove evolution, and you didn't answer me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "evidence for creation". Do you mean a 6 day creation? Because as a person who believes in God and accepts the veracity of evolution, I would say evidence of creation is probably something other than what you'd accept as an answer from me or anyone, which brings me back to not being interested in playing your little game.

872 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:34:55pm

re: #786 stretch

actually, I said my eyes began to open. It become clear to me that I had been misled by educators who professed to have clear evidence for evolutionary mechanisms, but could not bring those evidences forward when asked.

You must've gotten bad educators. I can't believe such people would be teaching on the college level. Either that, or (more likely) you got presented with the clear evidence by them like you have by us, and simply dismissed or ignored it then, too.

As far as thermodynamics - the first law, simply stated, is that matter and energy are conserved quantities. In those terms, the concept of a "big bang" as the only supernatural, singular event, to have ever occured (way way back in the past) was far-fetched.

But the Big Bang left an echo...background radiation...that allow us the not only say THAT it happened, but HOW LONG AGO (about 13.7 billion years ago). And we have even checked out the directions of universal expansion and extrapolated back to WHERE it happened. But you have consistently found demonstrable reality to be more far fetched than your personal fantasy, so it's hardly surprising.

The second law, regarding every reaction increasing the number of probably states, or the increase in entropy, speaks to a system (open or closed) that will not decrease in entropy (or experience a spontaneous reduction in the number of probable states).

Once again, for the umpteenth time, open systems, such as the terrestrial biosphere, receiving outside solar energy, can increase in complexity without violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

873 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:39:53pm

re: #796 stretch

Really? You would believe just one fossil out of place, and your whole world would come crashing down, rejecting all of evolutionary theory as so much garble?

There would have to be an explanation for a rabbit fossil in the precambrian. And it couldn't resemble anything evolution had to say on the subject.

The point I was making about two different species having identical DNA, is that the would not then be different species. Or of a living thing not having DNA - that could be any rock.

Which is my point that if anteaters and antelopes had identical DNA, that would disprove evolution. And rocks aren't alive.

874 Hhar  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:42:49pm

The comparisons of American creationists to theTaliban are a gross libel. The vast majority of American creationists, while politically and religiously conservative, would cheerfully (and violently, G-d bless them, every single one) die to prevent a man or woman from being executed by the state simply for their (ir)religious beleifs.

You people do not treasure the depth of civilisation you enjoy, nor its foundation.

875 freetoken  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:45:18pm

re: #874 Hhar

You people do not treasure the depth of civilisation you enjoy, nor its foundation.

Oh... foo... yes I do.

876 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:48:31pm

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My cousin (53) died yesterday, found out this morning, sunk in this evening. He was severely mentally handicapped. My Aunt and Uncle's lives have revolved around this man for 53 years.

The only time I can ever remember being relieved about a son dying before his parents. Am crushed because I have a double whammy. So, very sad for them, and so relieved for him and I just don't know which is right.

Sorry if I was less fun tonight.

See y'all tomorrow.

My condolences, FBV. I had a distant cousin who was a Down's Syndrome person, and he, too, died in his early 30s, many years ago now.

877 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:49:48pm

re: #807 stretch

No, I have not personally observed the effects of relativity, though some effects can be observed in a repeatable fashion. The simple fact is that adherents to evolutionism believe that evolution is a scientifically proven fact, but the mechanism, such as survival of the fittest, is the only 'theory'. Comparing this concept of scientific theory to the effects of gravity is the objectionable minimization.

I just posted on thermo - i'll get back to that

The central mechanisms of evolution are random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection, and the physical substrate to which mutations occur is found in every cell in every living thing, and the environment is found around every organism. And the 'only a theory' canard is so old it's whiskers have fallen off; everyone here and all their second cousins now know that the scientific connotation of the word 'theory' carries much more weight than does the cavalier connotation found in common parlance. It's not a whim; its a solidly evidence-supported organizing principle.

878 Salamantis  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:51:37pm

re: #809 itellu3times

I believe it is quite common for fossils to be found out of place, a stream might wash some petrified bones down into a pond where it gets mixed with new stuff and burried for another ten million years.

You'd still find some of the old stuff on it.

879 [deleted]  Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:55:49pm
880 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:00:51am

re: #817 stretch

You don't see all of space/matter/time popping into existence, without cause, a bit far fetched?

No more far-fetched than a bright, powerful and uncreated deity zapping it all into existence. In fact, quite a bit less.

And the second law speaks to increase of entropy for a system and its surroundings - the surroundings must always be included. For a system to decrease in entropy requires a pre-existent thermal engine of some kind, such as photosynthesis.

Which is found in blastocysts in plant cells, just as there are energy factories called mitochondria found in animal cells. Blastocycts trap sun energy and convert it to sugar; animals ingest plants and their sugar and nutrients, and mitochondria convert these into energy for muscles. Having an outside energy source is kinda handy.

881 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:02:49am

Enh, the "rabbits in Precambrian strata would falsify evolution" is a canard, and a frankly silly one. I've been watching evolution-creation debates for three decades now, and the painful (as an evolution guy) truth is that if rabbits were found in Precambrian strata, people would justly insist that it demonstrated the likelihood of time travel, and not anything else.

Before anyone reads the justly maligned Kuhn, they should read Duhaime. He'd look at creationists and shake his head, but he'd look t anticreationists and get purple with indignation.

882 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:03:46am

re: #818 realwest

Ah, my bad - I read your link where you quoted him and thought that quote was from the link itself, not from him.
I shoulda gone back to his original post. I apologize.

However, in the Wiki commentary, it says that Pagans "living mythology which explains religious practice.[3]" Does that refer to a non-written mythology which explains relgious practices - living here being - perhaps incorrectly - interpreted by me as the same thing as an "oral tradition" such as that of the First Americans (incorrectly referred to as Native Americans)?

Basically it means that it is not forever frozen like the textual dogmas of revealed religions, but can change and evolve to accomodate changing circumstances and new understandings.

883 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:06:46am

re: #880 Salamantis

What? Blastocysts in plant cells? You should be embarassed.

You mean choloroplasts. Just be quiet. You are a propagandist, and a bad one. See my earlier replies to you in a related post.

884 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:07:02am

re: #881 Hhar

Enh, the "rabbits in Precambrian strata would falsify evolution" is a canard, and a frankly silly one. I've been watching evolution-creation debates for three decades now, and the painful (as an evolution guy) truth is that if rabbits were found in Precambrian strata, people would justly insist that it demonstrated the likelihood of time travel, and not anything else.

Before anyone reads the justly maligned Kuhn, they should read Duhaime. He'd look at creationists and shake his head, but he'd look t anticreationists and get purple with indignation.

I don't see how in the absence of any empirical evidence for time travel that its existence would be assumed from the fossils of rabbits in precambrian strata. Now if people found a broken time machine that had to be left behind, that would be something to go on...

885 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:12:34am

re: #866 Thanos

Then you are reading me wrong. I can't believe that God exists, but I admit I could be mistaken. By small chance of existence, it's on the same end of the possibilty spectrum for me as Basho's unicorn on Pluto.

Well, I would define atheism as a conviction that there is no god, and agnosticism as the belief that it is impossible to know for certain one way or another.

But at some point, we begin to split hairs. Or cleave rabbits, as the case may be.

886 Claire  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:13:26am

Be vewwy quiet, Sal. People might actually learn something from you about evolution and Hhar and his pompous ilk can't have that...it just won't do!

887 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:15:50am

re: #883 Hhar

What? Blastocysts in plant cells? You should be embarassed.

You mean choloroplasts. Just be quiet. You are a propagandist, and a bad one. See my earlier replies to you in a related post.

Yep, I meant chloroplasts, but I mistakenly typed blastocysts. When I make a mistake, I have no problem admitting it, unlike creationists, who simply dismiss or ignore the mistakes they make that are pointed out to them, and proceed to the next scavenger hunt on the hamster wheel chart.

Oh, and fuck you very much for calling me a propagandist, even though the best propaganda is the truth. I know you meant it much less charitably. If you wanna see genuine cynically manipulative and lying propagandists, I refer you to the creationist sites.

888 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:18:15am

I don't see how in the absence of any empirical evidence for time travel that its existence would be assumed from the fossils of rabbits in precambrian strata.

889 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:23:45am

No, Salamantis, no one versed in the facts and processes of biology would call a chloroplast a blastocyst. You ARE a propagandist, and if you think such is cinfined to creationists, well, I invite anyone to visit the World of Dawkins website. The fact is that loudmouths who have no interest in empirical truth, on both sides of the debate, dominate the di9scussion.

I will say that you are typical of a species of internet anticreationist, in whom respect for the truth and stridency are represented in inverse proportion.

Blastocyst, indeed.

890 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:26:01am

re: #835 Walter L. Newton

OT - your avatar, anyone in particular?

Yes; it's me.

891 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:27:58am

re: #874 Hhar

You people do not treasure the depth of civilisation you enjoy, nor its foundation.

What an absurd assumption to make! If anything, I would say it's the creationists who don't appreciate the depth of our civilization. Just last week there was a comment saying the government shouldn't fund any scientific research. That's pretty rich (and ignorant) for someone on an internet connected computer to make and is more a slap in the face at our civilization than anything anyone supporting science education on this thread has stated.

892 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:29:50am

re: #889 Hhar

No, Salamantis, no one versed in the facts and processes of biology would call a chloroplast a blastocyst. You ARE a propagandist, and if you think such is cinfined to creationists, well, I invite anyone to visit the World of Dawkins website. The fact is that loudmouths who have no interest in empirical truth, on both sides of the debate, dominate the di9scussion.

I will say that you are typical of a species of internet anticreationist, in whom respect for the truth and stridency are represented in inverse proportion.

Blastocyst, indeed.

Your self-serving attempt to to morph an immediately acknowledged mistype molehill into a personally condemning mountain is duly noted and rejected. The people who have no respect for the truth are those who deny empirical evidence in favor of dogmatic belief.

But people like you will cling to anyhting they can, which is damned little.

893 Rustler  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:34:32am

re: #730 Mich-again Likewise mankinds wearing of clothing is about self defense more than modesty. Man lacking the thick protective hides of other animals was very fragile, lacking thick body hair we had little protection from the weather. The first clothing wasn't about hiding genetalia but rather an adaptation to help humans survive outside the equatorial belt where temperatures were moderate enough year round to allow survival.

894 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:34:45am

re: #853 slokat

So, you have a way to decode all those base pairs, beyond the few that are studied?

Do you use water inversion, or Gaussian pulsing?

Extinct viruses have been re-engineered from the artifactual retroviral sequences found spliced into the genomes of humans and great apes. The entire humam and chimp genomes have been sequenced, and comparative studies are ongoing.

895 LotharBot  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:38:23am

Apologies for going all the way back to *gasp* the original topic, but:

re: #2 Jimmah

One thing you never see: scientists logging on to theology discussions pretending to be priests in a dastardly attempt to promote naturalism.

Yet comments like #22 ("those who reconcile the two invariable reject some of what their faith would require them to believe") come in various flavors from scientists like PZ Myers or Jerry Coyne. It's not exactly a claim to priesthood, but it is a claim of religious authority -- it is a claim that my religion requires me to believe some specific thing. I don't consider my own pastors to be a authorities on the tenets of my religion, yet posts like #22 and people like PZ Myers and Jerry Coyne insist that they are!

One can be both a scientist and a theologian, and have coherent and reconciled views of both subjects, and be perfectly respectable. (I am neither, though I dabble in both -- studied mathematical biology/evolutionary genetics in grad school, and have a fairly deeply structured theology and interpretive framework for the Bible.) The problem comes in when theologians masquerade as scientists, or scientists masquerade as theologians, or neither masquerade as either, and they pretend to understand the subject well enough to teach it and make authoritative statements about it.

896 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:39:33am

re: #864 freetoken

Perhaps you may not be aware of this, but contemporary physics allows for (and some physicists strongly argue for) the eternal existence of space (e.g., Euclidean space such as the three dimensions with which we are familiar.) Therefore the three dimensions of our existence very well may not have come about due to "the big bang".

Similarly for time, though it is a more difficult topic.

Contemporary cosmology deals with all of these issues, including the possible of pre-existing other universes, etc.

The problem we face is that we are limited to our observation of electromagnetic radiation (light) only so far back... i.e., the cosmic background radiation (CBR) is as far back (in time) that we can look.

The LHC might give us clues as to what came before the time that the CBR was emitted.

Actually, Einsteinian spacetime is a single inseparable manifold.

897 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:39:55am

re: #891 Sharmuta

No Sharmuta, I'd say that both creationists and the "science is ncompatible with religion" folks do not appreciate the bases of our civilisation. I'm an equal opportunity kind of jerk. Our civilisation is uniquely pirvileged in its ability to explore empirical reality, but the cultural bases of that ability are not appreciated and prized.

The best of us prize demonstrable truth, whether it be psychological or empirical. The worst of us subvert one for the other. We recognise that both are valuable, and supremely so. Why? Why does "political truth" not enenter into our vocabulary, except as a term of abuse? Why amoung all cultures did we settle on those two notions, and exclude others?

These are difficult questions. You can generally recognise the value of a person's thought in this arena by how they answer them. Most don't even see that they ARE questions.
No Sharmuta, I'd say that both creationists and the "science is ncompatible with religion" folks BOTH do not appreciate the bases of our civilisation. I'm an equal opportunity kind of jerk. Our civilisation is uniquely prvileged in its ability to explore empirical reality, but the cultural bases of that ability are not appreciated and prized.

The best of us prize demonstrable truth, whether it be psychological or empirical. The worst of us subvert one for the other. We recognise that both are valuable, and supremely so. Why? Why does "political truth" not enenter into our vocabulary, except as a term of abuse? Why amoung all cultures did we settle on those two notions, and exclude others?

These are difficult questions. You can generally recognise the value of a person's thought in this arena by how they answer them. Most don't even see that they ARE questions.

898 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:44:13am

Nope, Sharmuta, I'm not buyin'.

I have too many degrees in biology, and have spent too long in academia to agree that that was just a mistype. Your comments are way too naive, and way to strident to reflect anything but ignorance.

Sorry. Blastocyst (not just once, but twice in the same post) vs Chloroplast: you don't know word one about biology or the processes and nature of science. To be polite; yer all mouth. But don't let that stop you. Pecca fortis, as Luther used to say.

899 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:45:22am

OOPs! Salamantis, not sharmuta, in 898.

Sharmuta, you I actually like.

900 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:50:23am

re: #898 Hhar

Nope, Sharmuta, I'm not buyin'.

I have too many degrees in biology, and have spent too long in academia to agree that that was just a mistype. Your comments are way too naive, and way to strident to reflect anything but ignorance.

Sorry. Blastocyst (not just once, but twice in the same post) vs Chloroplast: you don't know word one about biology or the processes and nature of science. To be polite; yer all mouth. But don't let that stop you. Pecca fortis, as Luther used to say.

Please point out my naive comments or incorrect comments on this thread, besides my immediately acknowledged mistype, made after many exhauisting hours at this keyboard refuting creationist crapola like the type that stretch and others of his ilk spoon out.

And please point out where I have been anywhere near as strident as the anti-science creationists, or have been strident except where replying to their own stridency.

I do not care one iota what you do and do not buy. I endeavor to grant every opinion the credit and consideration that it merits and deserves, which, in the case of your opinion of me, is no consideration at all.

901 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:51:55am

re: #897 Hhar

Ever hear of Rushdoony and Christian Reconstruction?

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

Please don't tell me there are not Christian extremists that can't be compared to the Taliban because there are.

Also- nowhere in the comment I responded to did I see you mention anything more than a defense of creationists, followed by a "you people" comment that left the impression it's the non-creationists not appreciating our civilization. So- if I've misunderstood you, it's because you were not clear enough in your comment as to whom you were criticizing.

902 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:55:14am

re: #899 Hhar

Umm- thanks.

That being said, I think you're being a bit harsh on Sal, who admitted his mistake, which is a hell of a lot more than you'll get from other people. I agree with Sal here- show him where he's wrong otherwise. If you're a biologist as you say, then I would think there are other fish to fry besides a man who has staunchly defended science.

903 gatorbait  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:05:36am

Maimonides maintains the position that one can know God only by his works. Thus, to "know God," a man must know mathematics, music, chemistry, physics, biology, geology, cosmology, human behavior, human anatomy/histology, and human physiology. To study DNA, RNA, hemoglobin, chlorophyll, and water, one can study God. This is not hard to understand.

904 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:14:23am

re: #898 Hhar

Nope, Sharmuta, I'm not buyin'.

I have too many degrees in biology, and have spent too long in academia to agree that that was just a mistype. Your comments are way too naive, and way to strident to reflect anything but ignorance.

Sorry. Blastocyst (not just once, but twice in the same post) vs Chloroplast: you don't know word one about biology or the processes and nature of science. To be polite; yer all mouth. But don't let that stop you. Pecca fortis, as Luther used to say.

You don't write like you have a degree in biology. Too impolite. See Ken Miller for the proper way to talk as a biologist.

905 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:15:47am

Oh, Sharmuta, I'm no longer a biologist. Got my degrees and moved into medicine, but my field is still pretty biology geek-ish, and Evo-creation I've followed since I was a teenager. I think I was 15 when the son of the local reformed Presbyterian minister ganve me a copy of "Tracking those Amazing Dinosaurs...and the Men Who Lived With Them!".

It is true that some creationists are as nutty and nougaty as anything Afghanistan has to offer, but these are in a distinct minority, even amoung vocal and strident creationists. I've met exactly one, and I have met many.

Salamantis isn't actually defending science. (He? She? I dunno) is defending a cartoon of science, and that cartoon is pernicious. I give some illustrations of just how shallow that cartoon is here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


near the bottom of the thread. Start at #399. Perhaps I am too rough, but unreason and ignorance in the name of reason and knowlege is particularly destructive, and as I get older I have more patience with the ignorant and less with the loud.

906 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:21:13am

A guns and god thread. Has to get high ratings.

907 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:28:30am

re: #732 Salamantis

I'm Pagan, and fully as offended by your association of it with Satanism as a Hindu would be if I associated it with Islam.

Fucking religious bigot.

The guy was mentally ill I would venture. He latched onto Satanism writings via inner demons and the media is unable to make the distinction via Wicca and Satanism. I didn't read that link, but I am sure there are people who mixture the two and misuse wicca.

908 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:28:49am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

From Giberson...

anti-evolution has assumed the proportions of a military-industrial complex but the battle is a proxy war, aimed not at evolution, but at materialism. I wonder what would happen if, in the name of pluralism and diplomacy, we could all agree that it was OK for people to believe that evolution was a part of God's plan.


Nice.

I haven't read all of Giberson's piece, but I approve his thinking here, and KT gets an upding for quoting it.

One thing I would add is that religious believers who pursue careers as biologists will still need to wrestle with "materialism" at some point in their post-graduate careers. Or more specifically, they'll have to deal introspectively with science's game rule of methodological naturalism (i.e., "and then a miracle occurred" is not an allowable hypothesis) and whether it intellectually obligates them to accept metaphysical naturalism (i.e., that there are no miracles at all, even when a scientist is off the clock).

Clearly, Miller and Giberson are among the many scientists who've concluded that you can embrace methodological naturalism without also embracing metaphysical naturalism, while Coyne is among the many who think that the first position implies the second.

However, as Giberson suggests, there is no need whatsoever to deal with these philosophical issues when presenting biological science at the high-school level -- which is what this whole debate is primarily about.

909 justadot  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:42:54am

re: #640 stretch

The claims about e-coli just do not hold up. If e-coli evolves into e-coli, what's the difference?

This is annoying. I think you do know the difference and that's why you're trying to downplay Lenski's work:

Lenski took 12 populations of E. coli -- all from the same clone -- and grew them since 1988 on a citrate-rich medium (DM25)with glucose. One of those populations evolved a citrate transport system that enabled it to use citrate as a carbon source in the presence of oxygen. Read Lenski's words (my emphasis):

DM25 medium contains not only glucose, but also citrate at a high concentration. The inability to use citrate as an energy source under oxic conditions has long been a defining characteristic of E. coli as a species (35, 36). Nevertheless, E. coli is not wholly indifferent to citrate. It uses a ferric dicitrate transport system for iron acquisition, although citrate does not enter the cell in this process (37, 38). It also has a complete tricarboxylic acid cycle, and can thus metabolize citrate internally during aerobic growth on other substrates (39). E. coli is able to ferment citrate under anoxic conditions if a cosubstrate is available for reducing power (40). The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions (41–43).

It doesn't mean that it can't happen with E. coli:

Indeed, atypical E. coli that grow aerobically on citrate (Cit+) have been isolated from agricultural and clinical settings, and were found to harbor plasmids, presumably acquired from other species, that encode citrate transporters(44, 45).

But this wouldn't happen here because the populations were kept under controlled conditions - otherwise, it'd be a waste of time if it were contaminated.

So after 31500 generations and years into the experiment, one population of these 12 independently developed a new mechanism for metabolizing citrate -- something none of the others did even after years of being surrounded by a potential carbon source but lacking the necessary machinery to use it. Not only that but…

The new Cit+ function has been the most profound adaptation observed during the LTEE and has had major consequences. As we will show, the population achieved a severalfold increase in size. Moreover, a stable polymorphism emerged, with a Cit- minority coexisting with the new Cit+ majority.

it was a very successful adaptation…

Interestingly, the population that evolved the Cit+ function is not one that had previously become hypermutable. It is also intriguing that this key innovation evolved so late in the experiment, given that the rate of fitness improvement had declined substantially in all of the populations (3, 23).

and unexpected.

I don't care if this is classified as speciation or not. That's a categorization problem. The more exciting thing about Lenski's experiment is that it highlights evolutionary contingency. He actually replayed the "tape of life," as Gould would say.

910 justadot  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:43:47am

re: #640 stretch

(continued)

Was this late change in metabolism the result of single rare mutation? Or did it require separate mutation events - each contingent on another so that the necessary genetic background was gradually accumulated? To find out, he took sample groups (replicates of clones) from previous generations of the Cit+ population and checked them for Cit+ activity. If it were only a rare mutation, it would be equally rare among all generations -- the mutation rate would be the same throughout. If it were historically contingent and required more than one mutation event, then later generations would be more likely to yield Cit+ than earlier generations -- the mutation rate would go up for those with more of the necessary genetic background. For the answer, see Table 1 here.

Do you want to ignore this because it's verifiable evidence of evolution? Or because it demonstrates historical contingency can play an important role in evolution?

911 Irish Rose  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:57:56am

re: #1 mean Gene

Nobody wants to even start here.
That tells more than anything anyone could say.

LOL, of course.
It never ceases to amaze me, the way manipulative idiots here will try to persuade Charles to stop posting these ID threads on his own blog by:

a. implying that they're irrelevant, or
b. implying that Charles is obsessed, or
c. implying that Charles is an abusive oppresser of Christians, or
d. implying that Charles is an atheist, or
e. can't we get back to the topics that really matter, like Islam? Or,
f. all of the above

This is a great post, Charles.
Ignore the idiots, and keep 'em coming.

912 Jetpilot1101  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:04:08am

Mr. Miller describe my position on this issue much better than I ever could. I will be sending this article to my friend who recently became an agnostic and has developed somewhat of a hatred for all things Christian. This article points out beautifully that Christians who believe in the principles of evolution and also in a divine presence are critical allies in the battle against creationist junk science (and I use the term science incredibly loosely). Thank you Mr. Miller!

913 Irish Rose  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:06:04am

re: #883 Hhar

What? Blastocysts in plant cells? You should be embarassed.

You mean choloroplasts. Just be quiet. You are a propagandist, and a bad one. See my earlier replies to you in a related post.


Pretty damned rude, sir.

914 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:19:39am

re: #911 Irish Rose

And only one person picked up on that besides you, Rose.

915 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:32:21am

re: #443 golly_wog

No, I haven't. I'll look it up.

Essentially, the final chapters of the novel Contact play with a question similar to "what if the genetic code spelled out Burma Shave?" (And incidentally, the book posits that an extraterrestrial species millions of years more advanced than Homo sapiens have -- so to speak -- discovered "Burma Shave" in the genetic code, yet these incredibly advanced intellects still remain more or less agnostic on the ultimate metaphysical questions. That is, even the "Burma Shave" message turns out to be not the clear black-and-white proof that you're assuming it would be.)

Alas, this intriguing line of thought was completely omitted from the movie version.

916 CharlieBravo  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:58:11am

We have freedom 'of' religion - not freedom 'from' religion. What parents choose to expose their children to is up to them. As children age, rebel and explore alternatives they sort things out and decide for themselves.

917 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:11:07am

Bravo, Ken Miller.

918 voirdire  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:02:49am

"Coyne's complaint on [the virgin birth, resurrection, etc.], paradoxically, is that they must not have happened because there is no scientific explanation for them." K. Miller

There's more than one hamster wheel here.

919 robdouth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:25:14am

I can see the points of both sides of this argument, though Miller seems more coherent in saying that there may be pressure to lump any believers into the creationist camp. Can you blame Coyne though when many sects of Christianity call for the active conversion of others to faith. Atheism or science has no such calling. In fact it isn't even a calling or belief system. It's just a process for understanding the universe. It's a process for arriving at an unbiased conclusion. In that way I can see how Coyne would say it's incompatible with religion because the great purpose or reason is already concluded, and so unlike in science where you are searching for a conclusion with your eyes open, in religion the conclusion is given, and you're trying to find the best path towards it. I'm not a theologian or a scientists so maybe I'm full of it.

I am guilty of what Miller has done here though in assuming that attacks on creationism (a pseudo-science with anti-intellectual underpinnings) constitute an attack on religion. It seems though that whereas Miller may be guilty of this equivalence, Coyne may also be lumping them all into one big silly "godpie."

Who is right? I'll just ask Jeevus.

920 robdouth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:29:54am

re: #911 Irish Rose

LOL, of course.
It never ceases to amaze me, the way manipulative idiots here will try to persuade Charles to stop posting these ID threads on his own blog by:

a. implying that they're irrelevant, or
b. implying that Charles is obsessed, or
c. implying that Charles is an abusive oppresser of Christians, or
d. implying that Charles is an atheist, or
e. can't we get back to the topics that really matter, like Islam? Or,
f. all of the above

This is a great post, Charles.
Ignore the idiots, and keep 'em coming.

IR, I agree with you in theory, although you have to understand that the fundamentalism of Radical Islam is far more pressing than the fundamentalism of Creationists. It is insulting to Charles though to assume that he can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Is it boring? I guess if you think the greater explanation and debate of the meaning of life is boring, then yes? Why are we all here? F--- it I'm going to eat a donut. There are always more important topics to be discussed, but that's the copout of someone who has no arguments and wants to change the topic. Think of how Obama ducks the tough questions he's had to face. All two or three of them in the past 2 years have sent him into a tizzy.

921 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:59:07am

re: #916 CharlieBravo

We have freedom 'of' religion - not freedom 'from' religion. What parents choose to expose their children to is up to them. As children age, rebel and explore alternatives they sort things out and decide for themselves.

No- we absolutely have freedom from religion of the state sponsored variety, which creationism in a public school science classroom would be.

922 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:58am

re: #360 DrCruel

As for this anti-Christian hysteria, allow me to remind that freedom of religion likewise includes not having to endure the constant pontification and preaching of atheist fanatics - to include the confines of a biology class.

I'm pretty sure no one addressed this, so here goes:

You are confusing freedom of religion with freedom from religion. The former guarantees that everyone in the US has the right to practice their own faith as they understand it. This includes atheists, whose faith that there is no god is as unprovable as the reverse. The latter, freedom from religion, does not exist except insofar as the state is not permitted to establish one religion over others.

So no, freedom of religion does not mean "not having to endure" something you don't like. In fact it's just the opposite: here in this great nation people of all faiths or none have to endure people saying the opposite of what they believe. Your belief is not protected from challenge, even if that challenge seems "hysterical" or otherwise unpleasant to you. After all, "atheist fanatics" are expected to endure the "constant pontification and preaching" of all manner of proselytizing believers, so the opposite also obtains.

As for "atheist fanatics" in biology classes, that's just a straw man. Biology teachers teach biology, which does not include religious speculation. The place for the latter is in a philosophy class or in anthropology or, if you send your kids to a religious school, in religion class. All perfectly legitimate. Even committed Catholic educators recognize the distinction between science class and religious teaching.

923 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:09:40am

re: #905 Hhar

Oh, Sharmuta, I'm no longer a biologist. Got my degrees and moved into medicine, but my field is still pretty biology geek-ish, and Evo-creation I've followed since I was a teenager. I think I was 15 when the son of the local reformed Presbyterian minister ganve me a copy of "Tracking those Amazing Dinosaurs...and the Men Who Lived With Them!".

It is true that some creationists are as nutty and nougaty as anything Afghanistan has to offer, but these are in a distinct minority, even amoung vocal and strident creationists. I've met exactly one, and I have met many.

Salamantis isn't actually defending science. (He? She? I dunno) is defending a cartoon of science, and that cartoon is pernicious. I give some illustrations of just how shallow that cartoon is here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


near the bottom of the thread. Start at #399. Perhaps I am too rough, but unreason and ignorance in the name of reason and knowlege is particularly destructive, and as I get older I have more patience with the ignorant and less with the loud.

While you're at it, read myreply to his #399 at #407, to discover how wrong Hhar can be - without ever admitting it, of course.

Hhar 'answers' in #414, a post, like his next one, that I had not seen, because was busy on this thread. He spouts some absurd and ignorant nonsense, ludicrously claiming that random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection are not terrestrial biosphere processes, but merely memes. A meme, you see, is a concept or idea or habit that reproduces between minds via communication or observation (for instance, all words and numbers and melodies are memes). All ideas do this, including religious ones, which indicates to me that Hhar is endeavoring by this cynical device to equate dogmatic religious assertions with the evidentially supported theories of empirical science. But the essential difference is that the words "random genetic mutation" and "nonrandom environmental selection" possess real-world referents, whereas religious dogmas do not (which is why they're unverifiable and unfalsifiable, that is, untestable). Or else they assert something about the world that can be empirically proven false, such as YEC Genesis Literalism.

If he wants to enlighten himself on the subject of memetics, he can read some papers i wrote on the subject:

[Link: blogs.myspace.com...]

[Link: blogs.myspace.com...]

After that, he begins shamelessly discipline-dropping and name-dropping (as if he was somehow special for being able to say certain names), meanwhile spouting laughable nonsequiters, such as asserting that finding an explanation for a process lacking cosmic meaning is the same as gifting it with cosmic meaning. But empirical science is not in the business of granting cosmic meaning. Only humans verifiably ascribe meaning to things.

He goes on to confuse empirical science with a gross misconstrual of the philosophy of science (which is philosophy, not science), by falsely claiming that empirical science's insistence on sticking with physical, observable phenomena is a metaphysical rather than a methodological position. Empirical science neither affirms nor denies the metaphysical; it merely states that the metaphysical is outside the empirical scientific purview, which is limited by necessity to physical, observable phenomena. And he continues to rave about empirical science and dogmatic religion being epistemologically equivalent, which they are NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, since one is supported by empirical evidence, and the other lacks it entirely.

What an utter hodload of pseudointellectual bullshit Hhar has spewed!

924 robdouth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:12:26am

re: #922 Cato the Elder

I'm pretty sure no one addressed this, so here goes:

You are confusing freedom of religion with freedom from religion. The former guarantees that everyone in the US has the right to practice their own faith as they understand it. This includes atheists, whose faith that there is no god is as unprovable as the reverse. The latter, freedom from religion, does not exist except insofar as the state is not permitted to establish one religion over others.

So no, freedom of religion does not mean "not having to endure" something you don't like. In fact it's just the opposite: here in this great nation people of all faiths or none have to endure people saying the opposite of what they believe. Your belief is not protected from challenge, even if that challenge seems "hysterical" or otherwise unpleasant to you. After all, "atheist fanatics" are expected to endure the "constant pontification and preaching" of all manner of proselytizing believers, so the opposite also obtains.

As for "atheist fanatics" in biology classes, that's just a straw man. Biology teachers teach biology, which does not include religious speculation. The place for the latter is in a philosophy class or in anthropology or, if you send your kids to a religious school, in religion class. All perfectly legitimate. Even committed Catholic educators recognize the distinction between science class and religious teaching.

Ding ding ding. Well said. If you want your biology mixed in with religion, like some kind of educational tie-dye, put your kid in a private parochial school. Otherwise, education has to be standard from the state, and not seen as favoring any religion or no religion. The question of creation itself is much more philosophy than biology, so you can make it through with the big bang theory and the theory of evolution and still go to church on sundays and reconcile all views.

925 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:38:54am

re: #922 Cato the Elder

I'm pretty sure no one addressed this, so here goes:

You are confusing freedom of religion with freedom from religion. The former guarantees that everyone in the US has the right to practice their own faith as they understand it. This includes atheists, whose faith that there is no god is as unprovable as the reverse. The latter, freedom from religion, does not exist except insofar as the state is not permitted to establish one religion over others.

Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hairstyle, or couch-potatoism is a sport.

And to assert that freedom of religion does not entail the right to choose freedom from religion is to contend the absurd. Can you imagine the US saying to its citizens "we don't care WHICH religion you choose, but you must choose at least ONE?" Even Thomas Jefferson acknowledged that the freedom of entails right to choose freedom from, in his 1802 "wall between church and state" letter to the Danbury Baptists.

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

926 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:38am

re: #925 Salamantis

I believe you misunderstand me. DrCruel was asserting that freedom of religion includes the right not to have "fanatic atheists" pissing in the punchbowl. In other words, he thinks he should be protected from atheistic speech, which would of course entail abridgment of the first amendment, and involve silencing those with whom he disagrees. This is thee Muslim take on things: You can say anything you want as long as it doesn't offend my belief.

Of course I'm not saying that you have to pick a religion, any religion, just not no religion. What I meant, and I'm sorry this didn't come through, is exactly the opposite: there is no freedom from religion in that there is no right to make others shut up and be silent so as not to offend someone. So atheists are free to free themselves of religion, but not to silence religion, and religionists are free to practice their beliefs, but not to silence atheists - which is essentially what DrCruel is saying he wants to do.

927 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:06am

re: #925 Salamantis

Or you could just re-read the second paragraph in my original post, which I think explains what I meant rather well. Taking the first paragraph in isolation, I can see your objection, but the rest of my statement clarifies it, I think.

928 CharlieBravo  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:10:51am

re: #921 Sharmuta

I agree, public schools shouldn't promote religion. I said 'what parents teach'.

929 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:44:47am

re: #926 Cato the Elder

I am in substantial agreement with your expressed position here. Freedom of speech trumps some imaginary right not to have one's frangible religious (or nonreligious) sensibilities offended. Although there continues to be pressure to change this by playing spurious prejudice and victimhood cards:

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

This global campaign of free speech intolerance and religious insulation from criticism greatly concern me, and I am committed to its failure.

930 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:27:01am

re: #929 Salamantis

I am in substantial agreement with your expressed position here. Freedom of speech trumps some imaginary right not to have one's frangible religious (or nonreligious) sensibilities offended. Although there continues to be pressure to change this by playing spurious prejudice and victimhood cards:

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

This global campaign of free speech intolerance and religious insulation from criticism greatly concern me, and I am committed to its failure.

Exactly my sentiments. This confusion of ethical respect for persons with forced respect for their ideas, beliefs, or cherished notions is insidious and must be resisted.

I have my own beliefs, and the operative phrase is "my own". That some of them are shared by many others does nothing to prove them or improve the likelihood that I am right. I must be content to see those ideas pilloried, flayed, mocked and scoffed at by others. Just as I reserve the right to sneer at, deride, slight and dismiss other people's ideas. No one should be prohibited from believing in chem trails or underground alien repositories, but those beliefs cannot make a claim to be beyond ridicule.

And 1.6 billion Muslims believing Mahomet went to heaven in the flesh on a flying horse makes that journey no more true than if only a handful of schismatics found it credible. The same goes for any of the major religions - popularity does not imply credibility.

Mormons are free to believe that wearing special undershorts gives them various kinds of protection, and I am free to snicker at them. And they are free to say that my snicker will put me in hell, and I am free not to give a damn.

It will be a dark day if the US goes the route of Canada and Europe by making some beliefs exempt from mockery. They are only doing so because they fear the thugs will kill them if they don't.

931 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:54:34pm

BTW: here is Jason Rosenhouse's evaluation of Miller's and Giberson's objections to Coyne's article:

Miller, Giberson Spank Back
Jason Rosenhouse
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

If you saw my post the other day about Jerry Coyne's review of the recent books by Ken Miller and Karl Giberson, then you might also be interested to know that Miller and Giberson have now replied. Click here for Miller's reply, and click here for Giberson's.

Let's look at Giberson, first:

Empirical science does indeed trump revealed truth about the world as Galileo and Darwin showed only too clearly. But empirical science also trumps other empirical science. Einstein's dethronement of Newton was not the wholesale undermining of the scientific enterprise, even though it showed that science was clearly in error. It was, rather, a glorious and appropriately celebrated advance for science, albeit one not understood by most people. Why is this different than modern theology's near universal rejection of the tyrannical anthropomorphic deity of the Old Testament, so eloquently skewered by Dawkins? How is it that “science” is allowed to toss its historical baggage overboard when its best informed leaders decide to do so, even though the ideas continue to circulate on main street, but religion must forever be defined by the ancient baggage carried by its least informed?

Because that ancient baggage carried by its least informed is constantly reasserting itself in the form of political pressure in directions that would be harmful to the country, while the theologians don't seem to have much influence outside the academy. Because that ancient baggage represents the dominant beliefs of those who identify as religious believers. Because religious revelation is supposed to be a source of truth that is timeless and eternal, and not something that gets revised every time scientists get an idea about something. Because science overthrows its baggage by finding new evidence and formulating better theories that prove themselves in the field and the lab, while theology, let us be blunt, mostly makes it up as it goes along.

That's how it's different.

Giberson goes on to write:

I think we can all agree though that, wherever we stand, there is a great need for a discussion of how America's conversation on origins should proceed. We need to wake up to the reality that current strategies have been an abysmal failure and ask some tough questions about why that is. There is a widespread fear on America's main streets that evolution is destroying a cherished belief in God. As a consequence, anti-evolution has assumed the proportions of a military-industrial complex but the battle is a proxy war, aimed not at evolution, but at materialism. I wonder what would happen if, in the name of pluralism and diplomacy, we could all agree that it was OK for people to believe that evolution was a part of God's plan. I suspect that cultural changes would be inaugurated that would eventually make both Eugenie Scott and Ken Ham irrelevant.

And I wonder what would happen if we could turn sand into ice cream and give a cone to every child in the Middle East. I suspect the resulting cultural changes would solve the Israeli-Palestinian crisis.

to be continued...

932 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:58:39pm

continued...

Yes, by all means let us adress Giberson's question. Americans see evolution as a threat to cherished religious beliefs because it is a threat to cherished religious beliefs. It is a threat regardless of whether people like Dawkins or Coyne are around to call attention to the fact. It's not a problem of strategy and it's not a problem of people being misinformed about the latest pronouncements from professional theologians. People aren't waiting for scientific authority figures to tell them condescendingly that it is OK to believe in both God and evolution. They are fully capable of seeing for themselves the many conflicts between evolution and traditional Christianity. If you are constrained only by your imagination, and if your only standard for measuring your religious beliefs is that they be logically possible, then you can get around the challenge posed by evolution. But the ones seeing conflict are not the ones being unreasonable.

Let us see what Miller has to say:

As I pointed out in Only a Theory, evolution did indeed produce the grand and beautiful fabric of life that covers our planet, including our own species. Therefore, we are not a “mistake” of nature, but a full-fledged product of the natural world. If God is the creator of that world, including the laws of chemistry and physics and even the unpredictable events of the quantum universe, then it would be perfectly reasonable for a religious person to see our emergence, through the process of evolution, as part of God's plan for that universe.

Perhaps, but a person inclined to go this route should also ask what can be inferred about God's plan from the fact that he does his creating through billions of years of sadistic bloodsport. An all-powerful, all-loving God is not the first thing that comes to mind.

He's right on one score, obviously. That is that certain religious claims, including the age of the earth, a global worldwide flood, and the simultaneous creation of all living things are empirical in nature. As such, they can be tested scientifically, and these particular claims are clearly false. Claims of demonstrative miracles in the past, such as the virgin birth or the resurrection cannot be tested empirically, because there are no data from which to work. On such claims, science has nothing to say one way or the other. Coyne's complaint on such things, paradoxically, is that they must not have happened because there is no scientific explanation for them.

Actually, Coyne's complaint was the following:

Like Giberson, Miller rejects a literal interpretation of the Bible. After discussing the fossil record, he contends that “a literal reading of the Genesis story is simply not scientifically valid,” concluding that “theology does not and cannot pretend to be scientific, but it can require of itself that it be consistent with science and conversant with it.” But this leads to a conundrum. Why reject the story of creation and Noah's Ark because we know that animals evolved, but nevertheless accept the reality of the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ, which are equally at odds with science? After all, biological research suggests the impossibility of human females reproducing asexually, or of anyone reawakening three days after death. Clearly Miller and Giberson, along with many Americans, have some theological views that are not “consistent with science.”

to be continued...

933 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:59:29pm

continued...

Coyne's major complaint, as I see it, has to do with the reasons for accepting certain religious dogmas. Miller's contention that we have no data for assessing whether a miracle happened thousands of years ago plays right into Coyne's hands. Why does Miller think the Bible is reliable when it talks about Jesus, but does not think it is reliable when it talks about creation? Science frowns in both cases. Yes, of course, you can always argue that maybe in one special case thousands of years ago one particular dead body behaved in ways that no dead body before or since has ever behaved, but Coyne is not wrong to see such a kludge as a violation of what science tells us about the world.

I don't believe that either Miller or Giberson have responded effectively to Coyne's arguments, but go read them for yourself and let me know what you think.

934 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:23:29am

re: #881 Hhar


Enh, the "rabbits in Precambrian strata would falsify evolution" is a canard, and a frankly silly one. I've been watching evolution-creation debates for three decades now, and the painful (as an evolution guy) truth is that if rabbits were found in Precambrian strata, people would justly insist that it demonstrated the likelihood of time travel, and not anything else.

Absolute rubbish, which insinuates that science is as resistant to facts as creationism. Only a creationist would post such a comment. Or some kind of confused idiot.

Before anyone reads the justly maligned Kuhn, they should read Duhaime. He'd look at creationists and shake his head, but he'd look t anticreationists and get purple with indignation.

So, what you are sayiong is that good scientists aren't too impressed with creationists, but what they really, really hate is anti-creationists.

What stupid creationisty drivel you bring to the discussion.

935 Aye Pod  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:42:41am

Hhar

And since you claimed to have 'too many biology degrees ' - how many have you got, where from, and what were the names of the courses you completed? (I have a degree in Biological Science from the University of Stirling - just one, mind you) And in what branch of medicine are you practicing? Sorry to ask, it's just that last time someone on one of these threads claimed to be a medical doctor I background checked him and it turned out he was a chiropractor.

936 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 9:24:50am

re: #935 Jimmah

Hhar

And since you claimed to have 'too many biology degrees ' - how many have you got, where from, and what were the names of the courses you completed? (I have a degree in Biological Science from the University of Stirling - just one, mind you) And in what branch of medicine are you practicing? Sorry to ask, it's just that last time someone on one of these threads claimed to be a medical doctor I background checked him and it turned out he was a chiropractor.

Maybe he used to be a scientist. Who practiced science. In a science place.
/


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