Another Holocaust-Denying Priest

Religion • Views: 5,188

It looks like Pope Benedict’s initiative to bring the Society of St. Pius X back into the Catholic Church was ill-advised.

ROME - A priest in an ultraconservative society recently rehabilitated by Pope Benedict XVI has defended a bishop in the group and joined him in expressing doubts about the Holocaust.

While making more cautious remarks than Bishop Richard Williamson, the Rev. Floriano Abrahamowicz echoed, in an interview published yesterday by an Italian daily, the prelate’s doubts that Jews were gassed during World War II.

“I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect, I can’t say if anybody was killed in them or not,” Abrahamowicz told La Tribuna di Treviso, a newspaper in northern Italy.

Contacted by phone in Treviso, Abrahamowicz said the report of his interview was accurate, but declined to comment on his remarks.

Benedict lifted Williamson’s excommunication and those of three other members of the Society of St. Pius X last week as part of his efforts to bring back into the Church the group, which opposes many of the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

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413 comments
1 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:32:37am

It's Vatican .02

2 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:32:44am

Disgusting.

3 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:33:27am

(That was a "Vatican 2" joke, but I'm not sure it's clear.)

4 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:33:55am

The Flemish equivalent of SSPX is St Maartensfonds and those gatherings that were put on hiatus back in 06.

5 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:04am
6 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:18am

0bama hates the Iraqis and the Society of St. Pius X hates the Jews.

7 dentate  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:29am

Floriano Abrahamowicz? I highly suspect this guy is a convert, another self-hating Jew.

8 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:35am

re: #1 zombie

It's Vatican .02

Very clever, Z!

9 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:54am

Ill advised? I'll say. One of these priests making that kind of comment was bad; two is a trend. The Vatican is going to take a lot of flak for making a decision to bring this group back into the flock, and I'm not sure it is worth it. The Pope is going to have to go through contortions to distance himself from these kinds of statements but the stink will stick.

10 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:35:12am
“I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect, I can’t say if anybody was killed in them or not,”


Rrrriiiight, and the fact that they were putting entire people into the gas to "disinfect" was just because, you know, they hadn't read the instruction manual.

Good grief.

11 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:07am

Just awful.

12 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:18am
efforts to bring back into the Church the group, which opposes many of the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

Gee, I hadn't even read that part when I made my comment. Looks like I hit the nail right on the head after all! They are Vatican 2 rejectionists. I.e. Jews are bad because they killed God. We're talkin' Olde-Schule Catholics.

13 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:25am

Seems Benedict is set on proving that we can all go back in time.

Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorn be damned.

But Benedict has some competition - Iran is about 700 years "ahead".

14 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:15am

It will be interesting to see what Benedict says about this, if anything.

15 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:51am

WTF.

16 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:57am

There are pockets in the church like this org in most countries in Europe, this streak of support for fascism goes back to Napoleonic times and fundamentalist Royalists who wanted the Divine Right of Kings back. It's evolved over time but the affection for evil justified by tribal and elitist purism has remained the same.

17 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:38:09am

re: #12 zombie

Gee, I hadn't even read that part when I made my comment. Looks like I hit the nail right on the head after all! They are Vatican 2 rejectionists. I.e. Jews are bad because they killed God. We're talkin' Olde-Schule Catholics.

Latin masses and keeping lay people ignorant. The return of mysticism and absolute moral authority.

Sounds like the Obama plan.

18 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:38:51am

I wonder what my co-workers mother, a concentration camp survivor, would have to say about this dude's opinion.

19 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:12am

Abrahamowicz also believes the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, and that if you sneeze, cough, burp, and fart at the same time you'll die.

20 MJ  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:21am

These folks are still the vanguard of classical antisemitism. Check out their articles on Jews:

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

21 rw in san diego  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:29am

re: #9 lawhawk

The Pope is going to have to go through contortions to distance himself from these kinds of statements but the stink will stick.

As I think it should. Brings back memories of the Church covering for pedophiles and then transferring them to greener pastures (and more innocent children).

22 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:37am

re: #12 zombie

Gee, I hadn't even read that part when I made my comment. Looks like I hit the nail right on the head after all! They are Vatican 2 rejectionists. I.e. Jews are bad because they killed God. We're talkin' Olde-Schule Catholics.

But of course, the other night, on the other Nazi-priest thread, we had commenters assuring us that even BEFORE Vatican 2, there was no statement of anti-semitism in the Catholic Church.

Feh.

23 dentate  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:40:11am

re: #17 karmic_inquisitor

Latin masses and keeping lay people ignorant. The return of mysticism and absolute moral authority.

Sounds like the Obama plan.

I don't get it. Isn't papal infallibility a tenet of traditional Catholic faith? So if they believe the pope can never be wrong, how could they reject Vatican II? It leads to a logical paradox.

24 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:40:20am

Does anyone get the impression that some of these holy men are far too cloistered to be allowed into normal society?

25 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:40:23am

re: #19 subsailor68

Abrahamowicz also believes the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, and that if you sneeze, cough, burp, and fart at the same time you'll die.

Thank goodness I'm not that coordinated!

26 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:40:29am

re: #16 Thanos

There are pockets in the church like this org in most countries in Europe, this streak of support for fascism goes back to Napoleonic times and fundamentalist Royalists who wanted the Divine Right of Kings back. It's evolved over time but the affection for evil justified by tribal and elitist purism has remained the same.

Jew-hatred is not in the same league as the divine right of kings. These people are plain evil. Antisemitism, regardless of its pedigree, is illogical.
It is also, ultimately, self-defeating.

27 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:15am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Thank goodness I'm not that coordinated!

LOL! I think it's something you have to practice.

oh, wait, what if it's true?

28 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:31am

I am still waiting for the outpouring of rage from the American Catholic community. All I have heard from so far are the jews fighting a rear-gaurd action while fighting an Islamic genocidal onslaught. The silence from average Catholics is deafening.

29 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:56am

Abrahamowicz sounds like another Pfefferkorn.

30 jcm  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:17am

Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?
/

31 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:19am

re: #20 MJ

These folks are still the vanguard of classical antisemitism. Check out their articles on Jews:

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

Where in that link do i look? I dont see a way to search the site.

32 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:44am

To people like these priests, the tragedy of the Holocaust was that it was discovered and exposed to the world -- not that it happened in the first place.

Their preferred outcome would have been that the Jews were all killed, and done so in secret, and the fact was never revealed or mentioned again.

But given that the mass killing was discovered and revealed to the world by liberating U.S. (and Soviet) troops, the fallback position is that there never was any killing at all.

The goal is to suppress any awareness of the previous Holocaust, so that the next one can be ennacted more successfully -- i.e. without any publicity.

33 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:52am

re: #23 dentate

doctrinally the Pope can not be wrong.

34 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:03am

re: #30 jcm

Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?
/

Edmund Blackadder?

:-)

35 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:11am

re: #20 MJ

Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide, and that it is consequently cursed by God, as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion?


The Jews were consequently directly responsible for the crucifixion. Deicide is the name given to the crime of killing the person who is God, namely the Son of God in His human nature. It is those persons who brought about the crucifixion who are guilty of deicide, namely the Jews.


Yikes.

36 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:26am

re: #24 Naso Tang

Does anyone get the impression that some of these holy men are far too cloistered to be allowed into normal society?


At least we finally found a worthy priest for Mel Gibson and his dad.
/

37 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:37am

re: #28 onepistoffyid

I am still waiting for the outpouring of rage from the American Catholic community. All I have heard from so far are the jews fighting a rear-gaurd action while fighting an Islamic genocidal onslaught. The silence from average Catholics is deafening.

In defense of the average Catholic, many of them will never hear about this. If you see the link above, it is from an Israeli news source, and the article the other night was also an international news source.

38 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:45am

Well if we stay on this course I will be leaving the Catholic Church. Hard for a former Catechism teacher to say but Christ was a Jew with a message of love and inculsion. He challenged the world to know God through his new covenant with all men. And when Christ was put to death, it was his own people that did it. He was a Jew. It was not martyrdom where the killing could be passed off to the other - the Romans. It had to be from those of his community - you and me - for his death to have had the power and meaning that it did. And, for believers, we have to understand that - as he died - he had the power to destroy all who caused him pain. He chose not to. As an act of love.

Reverting to divisive scapegoat theology is not only a step backwards - it contradicts what Christ taught us and cheapens his sacrifice.

39 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:45am

re: #19 subsailor68
" if you sneeze, cough, burp, and fart at the same time you'll die." Well I bet you would!

40 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:52am

I quit attending Catholic masses about five years ago and it constantly becomes a better decision.
I think American Catholics should schism. I might reconsider joining their ranks.

41 Opinionated  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:25am

It's much much worse then just Holocaust denial.

The Society of St. Pius, contrary to Vatican II, espouses a belief that even Jews living today, are complicit through blood and are to be faulted and blamed for the death of Jesus.

42 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:27am

re: #26 Wishing

Jew-hatred is not in the same league as the divine right of kings. These people are plain evil. Antisemitism, regardless of its pedigree, is illogical.
It is also, ultimately, self-defeating.

You need to read your history, the "anti Freemason" streak in these groups is Jew hatred, there's a dark streak of it throughout. They hate the Freemasons and paint them and the Jews as evil because the Freemasons were the first secular humanists.
The fall of the divine right of kings is just one of the things they hold against them.

43 davesax  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:32am

Charles:

The Discovery Institute is mad that Jews are mad about this.

And they got some space in the Jerusalem Post to vent.

Boo hoo.

www.jpost.com...]>Disovery Institute in the New York Times

44 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:32am

It's funny how Holocaust Deniers and 9/11 troofers both employ the "I'm not sure what happened"/"just asking questions" approach. Are they disingenuous scumbags? I'm not sure, I'm just asking questions.

45 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:46am

re: #16 Thanos

There are pockets in the church like this org in most countries in Europe, this streak of support for fascism goes back to Napoleonic times and fundamentalist Royalists who wanted the Divine Right of Kings back. It's evolved over time but the affection for evil justified by tribal and elitist purism has remained the same.

I wonder if these sects supported tighter controls on islamic immigration if they'd get support from certain "counter-jihad" bloggers.

46 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:53am

re: #39 realwest

" if you sneeze, cough, burp, and fart at the same time you'll die." Well I bet you would!

Hi RW! Hope your day's going well. On the subject, I'm not sure, and you won't find me trying it.

:-)

47 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:45:15am

Meanwhile Obama's organizing the ranks left with nothing to do since election day.

48 davesax  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:45:18am

Sorry, guys.

I meant, Discovery Institute in the J Post

49 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:45:28am
50 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:45:36am

re: #28 onepistoffyid
Well, I'm not Catholic, but I wonder how many Catholics even know about this?

51 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:03am

re: #14 Wishing

It will be interesting to see what Benedict says about this, if anything.

He's already publically abjured them.

About 5 years ago First Things published an article on the Church during the Holocaust. I bookmarked it and wanted to link it, but their site is under construction and I can't get to it.

Look. Don't give on on Pope Ben just yet. It could be that he's just out to bust their balls completely. The more they discredit themselves, the more room he has to do just that.

Altho', I'm afraid he may have been blindsided by these guys.

52 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:03am

re: #28 onepistoffyid

I am still waiting for the outpouring of rage from the American Catholic community. All I have heard from so far are the jews fighting a rear-gaurd action while fighting an Islamic genocidal onslaught. The silence from average Catholics is deafening.

Considering that most of us have never heard of Floriano Abrahamowicz in the US, why would you expect any sort of response?

53 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:31am

re: #23 dentate

I don't get it. Isn't papal infallibility a tenet of traditional Catholic faith? So if they believe the pope can never be wrong, how could they reject Vatican II? It leads to a logical paradox.

The idea of Papal infallibility is a construct of authoritarian doctrine. Among many, "infallibility" has given ground to "obedience" - that we obey the pontiff as our shepard even if, in our hearts, we believe him to be wrong.

54 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:36am
I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect,

Krylon-B and cyanide are disinfectants? Only if the "vermin" you're trying to cleanse from the Earth are humans.

55 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:51am

re: #32 zombie
AMEN.
Wish I could give you a hundred updings for that one.

56 MJ  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:53am

re: #31 Wishing

Where in that link do i look? I dont see a way to search the site.

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

57 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:55am

re: #41 Opinionated

It's much much worse then just Holocaust denial.

The Society of St. Pius, contrary to Vatican II, espouses a belief that even Jews living today, are complicit through blood and are to be faulted and blamed for the death of Jesus.

And that was the recent church position before Vatican Two.

58 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:47:19am

This goes hand in hand with the Turkish leader Erdagan laying into Israel for killing Hamas and the civilians it surrounds itself with, all while everyone ignores that Turkey does the same to PKK terrorists - both in Turkey and in attacks on Kurds living in Iraq. And Syria.

Erdagan gets adulation for laying into Israel, but everyone does the same thing when their own nations are threatened by terrorists. Only Israel gets singled out for such derisive attention that undermines Israel's national security.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Israeli double standard time, which also has the effect of laying the groundwork for the next Holocaust...

59 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:47:22am

re: #54 MandyManners

That's Al Gore talk!

//

60 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:47:48am

re: #48 davesax

Sorry, guys.

I meant, Discovery Institute in the J Post

WTF?!

NO ONE should minimize the good that the ADL and other Jewish anti-defamation groups have accomplished in publicizing Muslim anti-Semitism. But they have also done great damage to Jewish-Christian relations by making a habit of attacking Catholics and Protestants, sometimes in hysterical terms, on matters about which Jews have no business complaining.

Jews have no right complaining about Holocaust deniers?

61 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:47:50am

Note to Abrahamowicz.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just change your last name?

62 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:48:05am

re: #36 HoosierHoops
EXCELLENT Hoops!

63 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:48:24am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

In defense of the average Catholic, many of them will never hear about this. If you see the link above, it is from an Israeli news source, and the article the other night was also an international news source.

With all due respect, I don't buy that.

64 Opinionated  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:48:40am

I just hope the Vatican doesn't stoop so low as to make any overtures to Pat Buchanan.

/s

65 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:48:42am
I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect,

That's precisely what they were told before they went in.

He probably saw Schindler's list.

66 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:13am
Meanwhile, Jewish groups continue to pillory the Christian churches for their alleged guilt in fomenting the Holocaust. That's despite the fact that Hitler himself clearly dismissed as ineffective any fancied strategy to try to whip up Germans with appeals to punish the Christ-killers. In Mein Kampf, an influential best-seller, he relied on the language of Darwinian biology to declare a race war against the Jews.

Fucking asshole!

67 jcm  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:21am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide, and that it is consequently cursed by God, as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion?


Yikes.

If that his this opinion of this priest and others.....
THEY ARE THEOLOGICAL MORONS, IGNORAMUSES, AND BEYOND CLUELESS!

Once Adam and Eve sinned, it was God's plan and intent for Jesus to die to redeem us form sin.

There would be no salvation, no Church, no of it with out Jesus deaths. Jesus' death is reason for deep gratitude and even a sort of celebration among Christians. His death and resurrection is the foundation of our faith.

If they don't get that, the get nothing of Christianity. NOTHING AT ALL!

/rant off.

The Jews killed Jesus crowd piss me off, big time.

68 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:40am
69 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:46am

re: #60 Sharmuta


ADL and other Jewish anti-defamation groups have accomplished in publicizing Muslim anti-Semitism

Uh.....what?

70 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:47am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide, and that it is consequently cursed by God, as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion?


Yikes.

Oh. Yuck.

The best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity.

71 Westward Ho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:55am

The Panzerpappen is also trying to canonize Hitler's pope

72 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:01am

re: #43 davesax

Charles:

The Discovery Institute is mad that Jews are mad about this.

And they got some space in the Jerusalem Post to vent.

Boo hoo.

www.jpost.com...]>Disovery Institute in the New York Times

73 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:05am

re: #52 Honorary Yooper

Considering that most of us have never heard of Floriano Abrahamowicz in the US, why would you expect any sort of response?

No, I was really referring to the Williamson matter, which has been widely publicized in all major media outlets. This additional incident is just more of the same dynamic.

74 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:13am

re: #42 Thanos

You need to read your history, the "anti Freemason" streak in these groups is Jew hatred, there's a dark streak of it throughout. They hate the Freemasons and paint them and the Jews as evil because the Freemasons were the first secular humanists.
The fall of the divine right of kings is just one of the things they hold against them.

You know that going to many conspiracy theory sites nowadays will show people railing against the Freemasons and the Iluminati, and the latter is a code word for "International Jewry". Gah.

75 Gang of One  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:16am

And it is no coincidence that these denials come when actual survivors of the camps are themselves dying of old age. When there is no one left to say "I was there!" The memory becomes dimmer, the artifacts that survive do not tell the whole story ... and someday those will cease to exist. When will Auschwitz be bulldozed and forgotten?

76 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:20am

re: #63 onepistoffyid

With all due respect, I don't buy that.

Then you, sir, are merely a bigot. There are one billion Catholics in the world. Half of all Christians. Why would you assume that all of them would have heard of this whackjob? I've never heard of him myself until Charles brought him to our attention.

77 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:41am

re: #50 realwest

Well, I'm not Catholic, but I wonder how many Catholics even know about this?

Not many. I have talked to the Monsignor of my church and he calls it "Car Wash Catholicism" where many Catholics come in on Sunday, sit in the front rows, smile and contribute yet never act on the lessons of the homily. They are there for a Car Wash - get cleansed of guilt and leave.

78 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:46am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion the gospels?

Adding a degree of separation, I see.

79 vapig  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:51:32am

Where are they digging up these cretins?

80 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:51:41am

re: #34 subsailor68

Edmund Blackadder?

:-)

Blackadder fans unite!

81 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:51:57am

re: #62 realwest

EXCELLENT Hoops!

Hiya Realwest..Hope you are feeling ok today..I'm halfway through Friday at work..So things are looking better by the minute!

82 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:51:57am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide, and that it is consequently cursed by God, as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion?

Yikes.

The Jews were consequently directly responsible for the crucifixion. Deicide is the name given to the crime of killing the person who is God, namely the Son of God in His human nature. It is those persons who brought about the crucifixion who are guilty of deicide, namely the Jews.

But, if Jesus hadn't been killed, he would not have achieved his mission, and humanity would never have been saved. So shouldn't Jews be owed a debt of gratitude for not only (producing Jesus) but also helping him achieve his mission?

Disclaimer: IANAC

83 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:00am

Followup to my 72, something hosed up the quote

The whole article was written to pimp this POS DI bumpersticker again:

Meanwhile, Jewish groups continue to pillory the Christian churches for their alleged guilt in fomenting the Holocaust. That's despite the fact that Hitler himself clearly dismissed as ineffective any fancied strategy to try to whip up Germans with appeals to punish the Christ-killers. In Mein Kampf, an influential best-seller, he relied on the language of Darwinian biology to declare a race war against the Jews

84 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:12am

re: #44 Diamond Bullet
"Holocaust Deniers and 9/11 troofers both employ the "I'm not sure what happened"/"just asking questions" approach. Are they disingenuous scumbags?"
YES.

85 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:26am

re: #73 onepistoffyid

No, I was really referring to the Williamson matter, which has been widely publicized in all major media outlets. This additional incident is just more of the same dynamic.

Then I take back my accusation in #76.

86 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:32am

re: #79 vapig

Where are they digging up these cretins?

I doubt it's on the application.

They deal with them as the pop up.

87 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:42am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

Blackadder fans unite!

Yeah! (Now I can't get the theme song out of my head.)

88 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:48am

I went through Catholic schools & I do not remember hearing this kind of stuff. I don't know why the Vatican would tolerate any of it, one for the morality & two real bad PR.

89 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:55am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

That's a TV show right? Dark British humor?
I've got a vague memory of 1979, my Dad, PBS....I was a wee lad.

90 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:59am

re: #75 Gang of One

And it is no coincidence that these denials come when actual survivors of the camps are themselves dying of old age. When there is no one left to say "I was there!" The memory becomes dimmer, the artifacts that survive do not tell the whole story ... and someday those will cease to exist. When will Auschwitz be bulldozed and forgotten?

So are the liberators.

91 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:01am

re: #43 davesax

Charles:

The Discovery Institute is mad that Jews are mad about this.

And they got some space in the Jerusalem Post to vent.

Boo hoo.

Discovery Institute in the Jerusalem Post

This isn't surprising, because the Discovery Institute is promoting a far-right fundamentalist Christian philosophy. Trying to stifle criticism of the Catholic Church is perfectly consistent with their goal of promoting creationism (dressed up in flashy new pseudo-scientific clothes and labeled "intelligent design").

92 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:03am

re: #43 davesax
Hi dave! Good to see you again and a great pick up and post!

93 Eowyn2  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:06am

re: #3 zombie

(That was a "Vatican 2" joke, but I'm not sure it's clear.)

I got it.

I dont know if there is anything in the Catholic church which requires members (priests are members too) to accept historic fact. I'm Catholic and I believe the holocaust happened even though I've never seen the gas chambers. The priest/bishop need a lesson in humility as they are proclaiming their private views for publicity sake. No better than Sean Penn. I'm guessing it wont be long before the hammer drops on these guys from within their respective order.

94 jayzee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:16am

re: #70 Occasional Reader

Oh. Yuck.

The best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity.

I thought everyone that denies Christ is a sinner according to Catholicism. Is this not the case? Truthfully that alone doesn't bother me, it's when humans think it's their job to punish sin that concerns me.

95 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:24am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

Blackadder fans unite!

"Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking..."

(IMHO funniest line I ever heard on the show... guess the episode)

96 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:11am

re: #89 Bumr50

That's a TV show right? Dark British humor?
I've got a vague memory of 1979, my Dad, PBS....I was a wee lad.

That's it. Here's the website:

Blackadder

97 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:14am

re: #42 Thanos

You need to read your history, the "anti Freemason" streak in these groups is Jew hatred, there's a dark streak of it throughout. They hate the Freemasons and paint them and the Jews as evil because the Freemasons were the first secular humanists.
The fall of the divine right of kings is just one of the things they hold against them.

The Jew-hatred in the RCC FAR pre-dates anything *Freemason*.
Don't even TRY to school me on this.

98 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:15am

re: #63 onepistoffyid

With all due respect, I don't buy that.

Then why don't you tell me how the average Catholic will hear about this? Point me to some links in the MAJOR media, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, you know. Or some links to some Catholic publications that would have covered this. And I have no dog in this fight religiously, I'm an atheist.

But if you are going to question my proposition, then at least be honest enough to "guide" me to something that supports your contention.

99 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:17am

re: #45 Sharmuta

They do, and they do.

100 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:28am

re: #88 opnion

I went through Catholic schools & I do not remember hearing this kind of stuff. I don't know why the Vatican would tolerate any of it, one for the morality & two real bad PR.

This is the same Vatican that allowed a bishop/cardinal/whatever to call Gaza a concentration camp a few weeks ago.

101 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:21am

re: #76 Honorary Yooper

Then you, sir, are merely a bigot. There are one billion Catholics in the world. Half of all Christians. Why would you assume that all of them would have heard of this whackjob? I've never heard of him myself until Charles brought him to our attention.

The Williamson matter has been widely publicized. Please attach a link if you are aware of any protest by lay Catholics anywhere. It would be greatly appreciated.

102 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:31am

If I killed your God, imagine what I could do to you.
/

103 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:40am

re: #95 Occasional Reader

"Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking..."

(IMHO funniest line I ever heard on the show... guess the episode)

Oh rats. You've got me on that one. I remember the line - and yeah it's right up there.

104 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:58am

re: #10 Occasional Reader

Rrrriiiight, and the fact that they were putting entire people into the gas to "disinfect" was just because, you know, they hadn't read the instruction manual.

Good grief.

Well, the Nazis thought Jews were germs that infected the pure Aryan nation, so the gas chambers were to disinfect Germany.
I think the Pope needs to fumigate his church now. But in the sense of expelling (again) these people, not killing anyone.

105 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:00am

re: #99 Thanos

Fucking A!

106 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:01am

re: #56 MJ

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

[Link: www.sspx.org...]

Thanks.

107 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:02am

re: #63 onepistoffyid

With all due respect, I don't buy that.

Actually after re-examining my retort to you, I want to take back my last comment to you, then...

Fuck off.

108 Gang of One  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:15am

re: #54 MandyManners

Krylon-B and cyanide are disinfectants? Only if the "vermin" you're trying to cleanse from the Earth are humans.

It was Zyklon-B, a cyanide-based insecticide. Bayer made itm IIRC.

109 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:15am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide, and that it is consequently cursed by God, as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion?


Yikes.

This passage is from that article:

The teaching of Sacred Scripture on this question is quite explicit. St. John explains that if Pilate sentenced Jesus Christ to death, it was only on account of the insistence of the Jews:

When the chief priests, therefore, and the servants, had seen him, they cried out, saying: Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith to them: Take him you, and crucify him: for I find no cause in him. The Jews answered him: We have a law; and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (Jn. 19:6, 7)

The Synoptic Evangelists state the same thing, e.g., Lk. 23:22-24:

Why, what evil hath this man done? I find no cause of death in him. I will chastise him therefore, and let him go. But they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified; and their voices prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.


The Jews were consequently directly responsible for the crucifixion. Deicide is the name given to the crime of killing the person who is God, namely the Son of God in His human nature. It is those persons who brought about the crucifixion who are guilty of deicide, namely the Jews.

St. Matthew’s Gospel states very clearly, not only that Pilate considered Jesus innocent of the accusations made against him, but also that the whole people of the Jews took the responsibility of his murder upon their own heads. Indeed, to Pilate’s statement: "I am innocent of the blood of this just man; look you to it," the response is immediate: "And the whole people answering, said: His blood be upon us and upon our children." (Mt. 27:24, 25) The Gospel teaches us, therefore, that the Jewish race brought upon themselves the curse that followed the crime of deicide.

As many, many scholars have pointed out for centuries before me, there are various passages in the Gospels that seem fishy, as if they were added slightly after the fact to reflect some political upheaval in the late-first or early-second century AD. The passage cited above for the justification of anti-Semitism are the very same crucial passages that have been identified as possibly being later interpolations. Particularly the line, "His blood be upon us and upon our children." Seriously: What lynch mob would say such a thing?

Sherrif (standing in front of the jailhouse, speaking to lynch mob): "OK, I can't stop you from over-running the jail, bustin' him out, and hangin' him, but I just want y'all to know that I ain't responsible -- this is all your doing."

Lynch mob (in unison): "Yes, we are all guilty of the crime of lynching, as determijned by State Statue 132.9a, and are going straight to hell en masse. ... Now let us at him!"

Somehow, I just don't think it happened like that.

110 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:15am

re: #94 jayzee

I thought everyone that denies Christ is a sinner according to Catholicism.

I grew up Catholic. I was never taught anything remotely resembling "the Jews killed Christ" or "the Jews are sinners for denying Christ". Quite the contrary, we had an intercessionary prayer, "to the Jewish people, the first to hear the voice of God, we pray to the Lord". I am disturbed by these signs of retrograde motion back to the pre-Vatican II stance on this.

111 jcm  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:17am

re: #67 jcm

re: #82 Alouette

GMTA!

112 Westward Ho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:23am

re: #10 Occasional Reader


He can't even get his history right, the aktion Reinhardt extermination camps did not use the 'disinfectant' Zyklon B for mass murder, they used carbon monoxide from diesel engines.
Does he think that the gas vans were used for disinfecting clothing?

113 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:27am

re: #89 Bumr50

That's a TV show right? Dark British humor?
I've got a vague memory of 1979, my Dad, PBS....I was a wee lad.

GREAT comedy series. Utterly brilliant.

Rowan Atkinson (late made famous as Mr Bean) was the star. Each season he plays an "Edmund Blackadder" in a different period in history.

114 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:30am

House was in Blackadder.

I know that you know that I know that you know.

115 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:36am

re: #83 Thanos

Followup to my 72, something hosed up the quote

The whole article was written to pimp this POS DI bumpersticker again:

In Mein Kampf, an influential best-seller, he relied on the language of Darwinian biology to declare a race war against the Jews

Yes, that's the money quote. Never mind that Hitler never even mentioned Darwin or the theory of evolution in Mein Kampf. Klinghoffer is trying to redirect the anger over these Holocaust deniers toward his main opponent--science.

116 Eowyn2  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:08am

Okay people, before we get into a religious argument here.

Remember a couple of things.

1) The priest involved does not speak for the Catholic Church.
2) Benedicts reversal of excommunication came PRIOR to this nut jobs vocal musings.
3) There are also Jews who deny the holocaust took place and they have not been 'excommunicated' by other Jews even though they are despised.

Why give credence to this man's rumblings when he has nothing worthy to say?

117 Gang of One  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:20am

re: #90 MandyManners

So are the liberators.

Yes, Mandy, you are so right. Sigh ...

118 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:21am

re: #23 dentate

I don't get it. Isn't papal infallibility a tenet of traditional Catholic faith? So if they believe the pope can never be wrong, how could they reject Vatican II? It leads to a logical paradox.

Papal Infallibility was not an original tenet. Pope Gregory the first proclaimed it around 1610.

119 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:22am

re: #97 Wishing

The Jew-hatred in the RCC FAR pre-dates anything *Freemason*.
Don't even TRY to school me on this.

I'm not trying to school anyone, I'm not saying that Jew hatred didn't precede Napoleonic times, I'm pointing to an important base point of modern Euro fascism.

120 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:42am

re: #88 opnion

I went through Catholic schools & I do not remember hearing this kind of stuff. I don't know why the Vatican would tolerate any of it, one for the morality & two real bad PR.

If you went to Catholic schools post Vatican 2, you would not have, since at that council, they retracted many of the older doctrines and statement made about the Jews.

121 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:48am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

Blackadder fans unite!

Must we? ;)

Catholic priests do not hold the exclusive contract on anti-Semitism, but pandering to the few radicals lets the media sure smear that as true.

122 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:59am

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

Then why don't you tell me how the average Catholic will hear about this? Point me to some links in the MAJOR media, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, you know. Or some links to some Catholic publications that would have covered this. And I have no dog in this fight religiously, I'm an atheist.

But if you are going to question my proposition, then at least be honest enough to "guide" me to something that supports your contention.

Again, this issue is everywhere.....I have been looking for outrage from lay Catholics...please attach links that you know of.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

123 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:06am

re: #105 Sharmuta

Fucking A!

See my first comment in this thread, lots of VB members in St. Maartensfonds.

124 debutaunt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:21am

re: #10 Occasional Reader

Rrrriiiight, and the fact that they were putting entire people into the gas to "disinfect" was just because, you know, they hadn't read the instruction manual.

Good grief.

And they use the electric chair to make balloons stick to their hair.

125 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:37am
126 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:39am

re: #112 Westward Ho

Does he think that the gas vans were used for disinfecting clothing?

Why, of course, and so were the MG34s.

/

127 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:55am

IT would be nice to see a response in the JPOST by the Lizard King.

128 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:59am

re: #95 Occasional Reader

"Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking..."

(IMHO funniest line I ever heard on the show... guess the episode)

I can't remember the name, but it is 3rd season when the bad actors come to the palace to tutor the Prince. They are teaching him how to give a "Heroic" speech. Hugh Laurie (now of house fame) is the utterly stupid Prince Regent George. Love that episode.

129 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:04am

re: #75 Gang of One You are partially correct. The U.S. National Holocaust Museum was smart enough to find many, many survivors of the camps about 15 years ago and got their "oral histories" on Tape. They will not be forgotten and their voices will remain to be heard by those who care; unfortunately those who care really don't need to hear them; those who need to hear them won't listen.

130 nyc redneck  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:13am

they all know and accept that it happened,
they are denying it to re-write history.
they do not want the holocaust in the world psyche.
they want the jews to be looked at as liars and complainers.
it is also done to insult and humiliate .

there is incredible, precise documentation abt. the holocaust.
irrefutable proof.
the deniers are hateful and cruel.
and certainly deranged.

131 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:14am

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

I say, teach both views, and let the children Deicide for themselves.

/////////////////

Are you a Babtist?

132 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:17am

re: #123 Thanos

I did see, which is what made me think of that. pamela's a fool.

133 Westward Ho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:31am

re: #54 MandyManners

Krylon-B and cyanide are disinfectants? Only if the "vermin" you're trying to cleanse from the Earth are humans.

They were originally used as disinfectants used to delouse clothing of prisoners in camps.

134 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:54am

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

I say, teach both views, and let the children Deicide for themselves.

/////////////////


Jeez. I didn't even notice that!

LOL!

135 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:57am

#63 onepissedoffyid

They are right. Most Catholics in North America have very little clue about these whackjobs. Catholics aren't like Jews. If there is a whacked out Jew, we all tend to know about them. It goes with the territory. Its a necessary defense we have to have against members of the tribe being used against us. Catholics? Firstly there are too many Catholics, and secondly it seems to me that particular defensive mechanism isn't really necessary for them.

136 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:01am

Sharm, remember way back when I hinted at the "fundamentalist Catholic groups?". Think Dymphna.

137 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:32am

OT- Obama sending millions to help Gaza.

Wonderful.

Back on topic.

re: #110 Occasional Reader

It's misunderstanding like this that gives the Catholic church a bad name. I come from a heavily Catholic area, but as I've traveled I'd tell people that I was Catholic and they would look at me as though I'd said I was a Satanist.

When I first met my girlfriend she was under the impression that i worshipped a statue of Mary everyday.

138 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:56am

re: #128 karmic_inquisitor

I can't remember the name, but it is 3rd season when the bad actors come to the palace to tutor the Prince. They are teaching him how to give a "Heroic" speech. Hugh Laurie (now of house fame) is the utterly stupid Prince Regent George. Love that episode.

Bingo!

Per their instructions, he thrusts out his pelvis, howls loudly, and then begins reading the utterly prosaic, practical speech written for him by Blackadder. I fell off the couch.

139 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:59am

re: #100 MandyManners

This is the same Vatican that allowed a bishop/cardinal/whatever to call Gaza a concentration camp a few weeks ago.

They are making a big mistake. They have enough house cleaning to do without getting into this stuff.

140 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:17am

re: #122 onepistoffyid

Again, this issue is everywhere.....I have been looking for outrage from lay Catholics...please attach links that you know of.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

What the fuck is your problem This story ran in the Times on page 10a. Did you see the length of the article and the lack of any deep insight to what was going on?

And it fucking ran TODAY. You sir are a bigot.

141 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:23am

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Actually after re-examining my retort to you, I want to take back my last comment to you, then...

Fuck off.

You're a class act. Again, provide me with one link of a lay catholic protesting the Williamson affair which has been widely publicized.

142 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:30am

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

If you went to Catholic schools post Vatican 2, you would not have, since at that council, they retracted many of the older doctrines and statement made about the Jews.

Exactly.

143 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:35am

re: #93 Eowyn2

I got it.

I dont know if there is anything in the Catholic church which requires members (priests are members too) to accept historic fact. I'm Catholic and I believe the holocaust happened even though I've never seen the gas chambers. The priest/bishop need a lesson in humility as they are proclaiming their private views for publicity sake. No better than Sean Penn. I'm guessing it wont be long before the hammer drops on these guys from within their respective order.

I have a conspiracy side of me quietly muttering that they will be the vanguard of a change in Vatican policies. I sure would like to be wrong.

144 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:44am

re: #113 karmic_inquisitor

GREAT comedy series. Utterly brilliant.

Rowan Atkinson (late made famous as Mr Bean) was the star. Each season he plays an "Edmund Blackadder" in a different period in history.

And there were at least two specials; a Blackadder Christmas Carol, and one where they go back in time.
Baldrick: "I've got a cunning plan, m'lord"
Blackadder: "You wouldn't know a cunning plan if it danced naked on a harpsichord saying 'cunning plans are here again'"

145 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:55am

That JPost article may need to be a front page post. What a creepy way to promote intelligent design.

146 jcm  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:14am

re: #109 zombie

The gospels are written for different spiritual perspectives on the life of Jesus.
Matthew is written from the view of The Kingdom.
Mark is written for Jesus as Savior.
Luke is written to Jesus' humanity.
John is the incarnation of God in a man.

You are correct they were written latter. And that the account of the events varies between the narratives. Each stress a different aspect of the life of Jesus.

147 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:18am

re: #108 Gang of One

It was Zyklon-B, a cyanide-based insecticide. Bayer made itm IIRC.

Thanks for the correction!

148 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:23am

re: #77 karmic_inquisitor
That's sort of what I thought but not being a Catholic I wasn't sure. But I do wonder what the Priests say in their sermons.

149 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:47am

These are, indeed, troubling re-introductions to the Church. These priests (as their consecrations into bishops is suspect) should assume humility as they can now receive Communion. They should also brush up on the Church's teachings of the Holocaust, lying, using whatever authority they have to promote a lie, natural reason (aahh, St. Thomas Aquinas...) and how to deal with the real world.
That being said, I don't think the popular press is uncovering this because they care about everyone. They don't like the Church and anything bad is good news for them.
Just my thoughts.

150 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:59am

re: #136 Thanos

Sharm, remember way back when I hinted at the "fundamentalist Catholic groups?". Think Dymphna.

Thanks for the reminder. I might take some time this weekend and review some of the old threads- there's a lot that can slip through the cracks of one's memory, and a refresher will do me good.

151 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:03:12am
152 dentate  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:03:12am

re: #115 Charles

Yes, that's the money quote. Never mind that Hitler never even mentioned Darwin or the theory of evolution in Mein Kampf. Klinghoffer is trying to redirect the anger over these Holocaust deniers toward his main opponent--science.

The problem is generally not science or religion, it is the misapplication of one to the other. Just as biblical creationism applied to science is an absurdity, so is the use of science to justify moral and ethical decisions (i.e. what is good or bad). There is no morality in evolution (or "Darwinism"). Trying to create a scientific underpinning or justification for morals and ethics is the cause not only of horrors like this idea from Mein Kampf, but of modern moral relativism.

There are absolutes in the moral and ethical world--absolutes of good and evil. These can be as axiomatic as the laws of physics, but they cannot and should not be tied to science of any sort.

153 jcm  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:03:36am

Gotta' run...........

154 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:03:58am

re: #26 Wishing

Jew-hatred is not in the same league as the divine right of kings. These people are plain evil. Antisemitism, regardless of its pedigree, is illogical.
It is also, ultimately, self-defeating.

I am always amused by anti-semitism being "self-defeating" when the only people who bleed from it are jews. And don't tell me that nazis bled from it, they were challenged becuase of their agression toward other states not because they murdered jews. And their grand-children are spawning another jew-killing machine in their midst and silence the men who try to expose it!

155 MJ  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:28am
“None of the media distortions of this issue excuses those in the Jewish community who have lashed out at the pope. They should know better. Is their commitment to good relations with Catholics so thin that it can wither because of something like this? We certainly hope not.”

[Link: www.catholicleague.org...]

That's the well-known Catholic League president Bill Donohue, a flame thrower from way back.
He's never liked Jews very much. Thinks Jews should just keep their mouths shut.

156 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:32am

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

I say, teach both views, and let the children Deicide for themselves.

/////////////////

By "both views," I presume you mean:

"Now children, there are two views about the Jews. I won't make up your minds for you -- I'll tell you both views, and let you decide for yourself: Some people think that the Jews denied God, and are therefore all going to Hell. But other people think that the Jews killed God and are an accursed people who are a scourge upon the Earth."

157 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:33am

re: #114 Ben Hur

House was in Blackadder.

I know that you know that I know that you know.

He was also Bertie Wooster.

158 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:42am

re: #145 Charles

That JPost article may need to be a front page post. What a creepy way to promote intelligent design.


I really do think you should respond.

There are few out there with the understanding of the situation.

159 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:47am

re: #32 zombie

To people like these priests, the tragedy of the Holocaust was that it was discovered and exposed to the world -- not that it happened in the first place.

Their preferred outcome would have been that the Jews were all killed, and done so in secret, and the fact was never revealed or mentioned again.

But given that the mass killing was discovered and revealed to the world by liberating U.S. (and Soviet) troops, the fallback position is that there never was any killing at all.

The goal is to suppress any awareness of the previous Holocaust, so that the next one can be ennacted more successfully -- i.e. without any publicity.

Indeed. Folks like that would actually have gotten along quite well with Nazis like Adolf Eichmann and Reinhard Heidrich. Men who promised to remove the Jews and make sure they didn't come back. Scum.

160 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:54am

re: #109 zombie

Notice how "whole people" is ignored from the Mark citation.

"whole people" means all of us.

Had things unfolded where Pilate executed Jesus in spite of the Jews then Catholicism could make the claim of wanting to avenge deicide.

When it is the very community - the whole people - who commit deicide then mankind is offered no scapegoat. No escape. We can only ask for forgiveness with contrition in our hearts.

Scapegoat Catholicism is, indeed, extremely dangerous and has a very porr and savage history.

161 VioletTiger  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #116 Eowyn2

Okay people, before we get into a religious argument here.

Remember a couple of things.

1) The priest involved does not speak for the Catholic Church.
2) Benedicts reversal of excommunication came PRIOR to this nut jobs vocal musings.
3) There are also Jews who deny the holocaust took place and they have not been 'excommunicated' by other Jews even though they are despised.

Why give credence to this man's rumblings when he has nothing worthy to say?


Thank you, you are so right. These nutbags don't speak for the church or for the majority of Catholics. However, as a Catholic, I am concerned and will speak out against it.
I think it is a dam shame that these nutbags sully the name of Catholics everwhere. Pope John Paul made huge inroads to patching the relations between Catholics and Jews. I hope our new pope does not screw that up. That was such a significant part of John Paul's legacy, it would be a tragedy if they manage to do so.

162 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:59am

Boot this guy out of the Church.

163 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:06am

re: #122 onepistoffyid

Again, this issue is everywhere.....I have been looking for outrage from lay Catholics...please attach links that you know of.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Well, how about the outrage you see here? There are Catholics here who are outraged. And there was another boatload on the thread the other night.

I don't judge all Jews by Neturei Karta.

164 Ben Hur  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:08am

lunch

165 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:14am

re: #135 Hhar

There's a billion of us, and not all of us Catholics worship in exactly the same way. Shoot, it's a minor miracle that we can even get the Mass to be similar in different regions of the world. Most will just simply ignore a nut like Williamson rather than do anything else.

It's also amazing the number of myths out there about us that people are very willing to believe. See Bumr50's #137 about the worshipping statues of Mary as just an example.

166 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:14am

re: #117 Gang of One

Yes, Mandy, you are so right. Sigh ...

We will not let history die.

167 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:56am

re: #157 MandyManners

He was also Bertie Wooster.

Loved that series as well. YouTube also has quite a few of the old "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" shows. Hugh Laurie sings/plays the piano in quite a few, and he's really very good.

168 Westward Ho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:01am

re: #116 Eowyn2

Okay people, before we get into a religious argument here.

Remember a couple of things.
3) There are also Jews who deny the holocaust took place and they have not been 'excommunicated' by other Jews even though they are despised.


Who are they?

169 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:02am

Charles- you're too kind. I don't think it's creepy, it's vile.

170 rumcrook  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:12am

re: #130 nyc redneck
your comment is so crystal clear it should show up twice.
re: #130 nyc redneck

they all know and accept that it happened,
they are denying it to re-write history.
they do not want the holocaust in the world psyche.
they want the jews to be looked at as liars and complainers.
it is also done to insult and humiliate .

there is incredible, precise documentation abt. the holocaust.
irrefutable proof.
the deniers are hateful and cruel.
and certainly deranged.

171 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:19am

Excellent comparison.
This is one story that American Catholics should learn and then distance themselves from the extremists in Europe.
I almost want to go back to my old church and tell people.
In the same way that I would appreciate peaceful Islam distancing itself from it's radical brethren, Catholics should be held to the same standard.

172 jill e  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:24am

From Amy Welborn:
"SSPX adherents have varying attitudes towards the Church since Vatican II, and varying attitudes about the Popes since Pius XII, but there are enough of them at all levels whose stances range from “contemptuous disdain” to “heresy-hunting” to make any real rapprochement either very far in the future or having the consequence of splitting the movement and leadership."

There are many in SSPX that want this "recommunion" to fail. So they will do or say what they must for controversy to occur to the extent that it does fail.

And from ZENIT, an interview with Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, a member of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei:

In fact, he explained, there are two fundamental issues still to be resolved before the schism can be considered healed: "the integration of the juridical structure of the Fraternity of St. Pius X in the Church" and "agreement in dogmatic and ecclesiological questions."

Among these issues to consider, Cardinal Ricard noted the issue of the Second Vatican Council and its acceptance as a "magisterial text of primary importance. This is fundamental."

The prelate also referred to cultural and political difficulties, including "unacceptable declarations from Bishop Williamson negating the drama of the extermination of the Jews."

The cardinal was referring to uproar caused by Bishop Richard Williamson, one of the bishops whose excommunication was lifted, in an interview in which the bishop claimed that historical evidence denies the gassing of Jews in Nazi concentration camps.

Cardinal Ricard affirmed that with issues such as these, "the road will undoubtedly be long, and will demand better understating and mutual esteem. But the lifting of the excommunication will permit walking it together."

173 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:44am

Here's Dymphna on Williamson

Warning, enemy site, Charles you might want to delete this....

dymphnaroad.blogspot.com/2009/01/bishop-williamson-leaves-turd-in.html

174 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:46am
175 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:47am

re: #138 Occasional Reader

Bingo!

Per their instructions, he thrusts out his pelvis, howls loudly, and then begins reading the utterly prosaic, practical speech written for him by Blackadder. I fell off the couch.

Found it!

Youtube Video
176 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:00am

re: #139 opnion

They are making a big mistake. They have enough house cleaning to do without getting into this stuff.

So why doesn't the pope crack the whip?

177 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:17am
178 Gang of One  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:22am

re: #129 realwest

You are partially correct. The U.S. National Holocaust Museum was smart enough to find many, many survivors of the camps about 15 years ago and got their "oral histories" on Tape. They will not be forgotten and their voices will remain to be heard by those who care; unfortunately those who care really don't need to hear them; those who need to hear them won't listen.

Yes, RW, you are correct, and IIRC Steven Spielberg has some foundation tht also recorded the stories of survivors. My closest friend back in my childhood has a father who survived Auschwitz, another friend's mom went through Dachau, and the cousin of my grandfather survived medical experiments done on her in Treblinka. Still, when they are gone and when their liberators are gone, only the tales remain -- and we know such documents cannot endure forever.

179 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:37am

re: #116 Eowyn2

3) There are also Jews who deny the holocaust took place and they have not been 'excommunicated' by other Jews even though they are despised.

Just some little nit picking.

There are no Jews who deny the Holocaust took place.

Neturei Karta don't deny the Holocaust took place, even though they pal around with those who do.

There is no central authority in Judaism that can excommunicate people, like there is in the Catholic church. However, a number of diverse Orthodox groups have put a "herem" (excommunication) on Neturei Karta.

180 Gang of One  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:49am

re: #147 MandyManners

Thanks for the correction!

Glad to be of service, Ma'am.

181 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:08:11am
182 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:08:19am

re: #167 subsailor68

Loved that series as well. YouTube also has quite a few of the old "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" shows. Hugh Laurie sings/plays the piano in quite a few, and he's really very good.

They take me back to a more innocent time.

183 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:08:33am

re: #176 MandyManners

So why doesn't the pope crack the whip?

"Kinky."

-Hedley Lamarr

184 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:17am

re: #173 Thanos

Holocaust denial is like jock itch? WTF?

185 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:28am

re: #32 zombie

I agree and the re-scapegoating of jews is a prelude to supporting a new holocaust in order to avoid war with Islam. There are fewer jews, they have no oil, they will not kill us if we threaten them, and we can steal their stuff in the name of God.

Pope Benedict must address this, IMO. The economic situation in the world will seek a scapegoat

186 VioletTiger  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:44am

re: #63 onepistoffyid

With all due respect, I don't buy that.

Why do you say that? Do you attend a Catholic Church? I can tell you that nothing like this is a typical part of a Sunday mass. The priests usually stick to love one another, care for you neighbor topics. If I didn't read LGF, I would have NO idea.

187 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:46am

re: #182 MandyManners

They take me back to a more innocent time.

On 9/11, we lost our innocence.

(I can't recall which lizard was railing against this expression the other day)

188 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:10:29am

re: #173 Thanos

Interesting that Dymphna has her own blog separate from GoV.

189 dentate  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:10:42am

re: #179 Alouette

Just some little nit picking.

There are no Jews who deny the Holocaust took place.

Neturei Karta don't deny the Holocaust took place, even though they pal around with those who do.

No, they believe that the Jews brought it on themselves as divine punishment for coming up with the Reform movement. As bad as anything the Catholics might have said about deicide--or maybe worse.

190 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:10:51am

re: #154 SpartanWoman

I am always amused by anti-semitism being "self-defeating" when the only people who bleed from it are jews. And don't tell me that nazis bled from it, they were challenged becuase of their agression toward other states not because they murdered jews. And their grand-children are spawning another jew-killing machine in their midst and silence the men who try to expose it!

Self-defeating: Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

191 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:11:07am

re: #181 buzzsawmonkey

Aw, heck--meatloaf again?

Does it leave you prayin' for the end of lunch? It's all that you can dooo, oooh, ooooh?

192 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:11:09am

re: #182 MandyManners

They take me back to a more innocent time.

They do for me as well. But what I find amazing is how much funnier those shows were than the dreck they call "comedy" today. Fry, Laurie, Atkinson, etc. could always make me laugh until tears rolled. Today's crap just makes me want to cry.

193 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:11:36am

Ok, I got it. This is from First Things, Father Richard Neuhaus publication on religion in the public square. He was a Lutheran minister who converted to Catholicism.

RIP Father Richard.

The Holocaust: What Was Not Said

It is written by a priest, Martin Rhonmeimer, who has both Catholic and Jewish roots.

Please read it. Some snippits

This defense of the Church, however, fails to account for a number of important facts. It ignores the existence of a specifically modern anti-Semitism, shared in varying degrees by Catholics. Nourished by traditional Christian anti-Judaism, it had social, political, and economic aspects as well. In its Catholic form it was rooted in the Church’s political and social antimodernism, especially its opposition to liberalism and all its works. For German Catholics this resulted in openness to volkisch and racist ideas that blurred the boundaries with Nazi ideology. Finally, there was the Catholic openness to an authoritarian state, which allowed people to think, at the start of Hitler’s rule, that the Nazi state might be an acceptable alternative to liberal democracy and a bulwark against the looming threat of Bolshevism.
[ ]
As the Nazi regime’s campaign against the Church intensified, it became increasingly clear that Catholic opposition to racism had more to do with defending the Church than with any fundamental rejection of anti-Semitism or of hostility to Jews. True, the Church was always nonconformist because of its opposition to totalitarianism. But because the Nazis viewed Christianity as the heir of Judaism, the Church, especially in Germany, had to defend itself against the combination of hatred for Jews and Christians alike. The more the Church devoted itself to this task, the more it was forced to distinguish between Old Testament and post-Christian Jewry, with the inevitable result that contemporary Jews were left to look after themselves.
[]
It is also true that no institution opposed the Nazis’ deification of the state, people, and race as clearly as the Catholic Church. To judge rightly, however, the significance for the Jews of the condemnation of racial absolutism in the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (issued, as noted above, very late in the day), we must keep in mind the morally compromised historical context. By 1937 clarification of the Church’s doctrine had become urgently necessary in order to refute the Nazis’ mendacious anti-Catholic propaganda. This was the encyclical’s precise purpose: to defend the Church in the face of totalitarian dictatorship. As Secretary of State Pacelli wrote to Cardinal Faulhaber on April 2, 1937, the encyclical was theologically and pastorally necessary “to preserve the true faith in Germany.” The encyclical also defended baptized Jews, considered still Jews by the Nazis because of racial theories that the Church could not accept. But the encyclical never discussed Jews in general.
[]
It would appear that this is the point at which the policies of the Vatican and the German bishops (led by Cardinals Bertram and Faulhaber) began to converge, and the notorious “silence” about the Jews commenced.
[]
. The “official Church,” to be sure, was certainly not one of the causes of the Holocaust. And once the trains started rolling toward Auschwitz, the Church was powerless to stop them. Yet neither can the Church boast that it was among those who, from the start, tried to avert Auschwitz by standing up publicly for its future victims. Given the undeniable intellectual and moral quality of the German episcopate of that era and the bishops’ impressive ideological opposition to Nazi persecution of the Church, their failure with regard to the Jews can only be described as tragic.

They know. Please don't give up on them.

194 Quintus_Arius  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:11:51am

IMHO (which I think highly of) Pope Benedict XVI believes that the the only buffer between Muslim hegemony and the rest of us is the Catholic Church. With the election of Barack Obama he has become more convinced.

Reconciling break-away conservative Catholic groups works toward that end only.

What is more of story: There were 19 of 25 Catholic senators that voted to support Obama's foreign abortion reversal. I bet they were all Democrats.

195 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:09am
196 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:15am

re: #190 Wishing

Self-defeating: Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Oh "spiritually" self-defeating? Evil people bent on death don't care.

197 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:16am

re: #179 Alouette

And there's division even within the Neturei Karta (the "problematic" group -- the one which kisses up to Ahmadinejad, for example, is led by one rabbi -- and others are deeply opposed to this, etc.)

198 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:25am

re: #161 VioletTiger

Thank you, you are so right. These nutbags don't speak for the church or for the majority of Catholics. However, as a Catholic, I am concerned and will speak out against it.
I think it is a dam shame that these nutbags sully the name of Catholics everwhere. Pope John Paul made huge inroads to patching the relations between Catholics and Jews. I hope our new pope does not screw that up. That was such a significant part of John Paul's legacy, it would be a tragedy if they manage to do so.

Violet Tiger, as noted in previous posts in this thread, I am looking for any indication that the "majority of Catholics" as you say, do not agree with Williamson and Abromicz (sp?). I sense there is not alot of outrage in the US Catholic Community over the Williamson affair.

199 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:57am

re: #195 buzzsawmonkey

And without having to rely on profane expletives, too.

Amen!

200 yma o hyd  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #60 Sharmuta

You got it, Sharmuta: Jews have no rights. Thats the direction politics in the world is going.
Deny the Holocaust and you implicitly deny Israel's right to exist.
Mild words and ever-so-rational explanations cannot hide that fact.

Some have already dropped their masks - others are still hiding behind semi-rational waffling.

We need to see them for what they are: antisemites in modern, gentle disguise. What is underneath has not changed a little bit.

201 MarineGrunt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:08am
“I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect, I can’t say if anybody was killed in them or not,”

No you dumb ass, they voluntary walked into the chambers for the nazi version of group showers.

202 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:15am

re: #130 nyc redneck
Hey nyc redneck - spot on post. Thanks.
Pease also see my #129; the proof of the Holocaust is absolute and undeniable.
And yet these...........people........... still try. I cannot express out here my true feelings about those deniers without being banned.

203 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:29am

re: #195 buzzsawmonkey

And without having to rely on profane expletives, too.

"King of the Hill" in particular relies heavily on propane humor.

204 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:51am

re: #183 Occasional Reader

"Kinky."

-Hedley Lamarr

Twue. Twue.

205 nyc redneck  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:08am

re: #170 rumcrook

thank you, rumcrook,
:D

206 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:13am

re: #187 Occasional Reader

On 9/11, we lost our innocence.

(I can't recall which lizard was railing against this expression the other day)

Which expression?

207 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:28am

re: #185 SpartanWoman

I agree and the re-scapegoating of jews is a prelude to supporting a new holocaust in order to avoid war with Islam. There are fewer jews, they have no oil, they will not kill us if we threaten them, and we can steal their stuff in the name of God.

Pope Benedict must address this, IMO. The economic situation in the world will seek a scapegoat

You are right on the money on this, and many jews in the US are actively preparing for this ( I am not taking about hiding their gold in the attack, if you catch my drift).

208 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:48am

re: #200 yma o hyd

That line was even more vile than pinning the Holocaust on "Darwinism".

209 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:56am

re: #192 subsailor68

They do for me as well. But what I find amazing is how much funnier those shows were than the dreck they call "comedy" today. Fry, Laurie, Atkinson, etc. could always make me laugh until tears rolled. Today's crap just makes me want to cry.

I don't insult my television by watchig the dreck.

210 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:12am

I think we need to take a much calmer view to this whole thing.

Benedict is not stupid, he sees a western world under assault and Islamists threatening the Church worldwide. It's of one piece with Geert Wilder's calls to ban the Koran. It is more instructive of the worry in the minds of the last defenders of Europe than anything else.

I would very much prefer if he issued an encyclical that declared the Holocaust happened and that anyone who believes it did not happen gains no spiritual benefit from Communion. Putting a faultline on Salvation seems the proper balance to take with these folks.

211 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:15am

re: #196 SpartanWoman

Oh "spiritually" self-defeating? Evil people bent on death don't care.

Well, of all the empires that chose to come against the Jewish people, not a one retains its *empire* status. That is a bit more than *spiritual*.
That is called, *Promise fulfilled*.

212 deacon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:41am

I cannot see how these people can deny so much historical fact. There were photos taken at the liberation of these camps showing the conditions. The Nazi's themselves were also very anal about record keeping. Are these priests denying the "Final Solution"?

There is something important to learn from the holocaust, and that is that when you have an influencial and charismatic leader, he can get away with murder, literaly, and erase any that would oppose him/her or be a threat.

I had the opportunity to visit Sachsenhausen concentration camp. And while it was a labor camp and not one of the death camps, you could still see the remains of the ovens and the trench where they would execute people, as well as the morgue. It is a historical fact. These priests need to visit a few of these camps.

213 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:43am

re: #207 onepistoffyid

You are right on the money on this, and many jews in the US are actively preparing for this ( I am not taking about hiding their gold in the attack, if you catch my drift).

And many more jews voted for appeasement that will cause this nightmare. As much as I was ambivalent toward McCain, I trusted him on this matter.

214 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:43am

re: #177 buzzsawmonkey

I was also riffing on the creationist line on evolution, along with the "let the children decide on religion later" locution, but of course you knew that.

Yes, of course -- I was just elaborating on the riff.

215 yma o hyd  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:07am

re: #83 Thanos

Followup to my 72, something hosed up the quote

The whole article was written to pimp this POS DI bumpersticker again:

Yeah, I noticed that as well.
As if there would be no antisemitism without Darwin ...

Un-effen-believable!

216 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:23am

re: #198 onepistoffyid

Violet Tiger, as noted in previous posts in this thread, I am looking for any indication that the "majority of Catholics" as you say, do not agree with Williamson and Abromicz (sp?). I sense there is not alot of outrage in the US Catholic Community over the Williamson affair.

And i noted in previous post on this thread that you sir are being dishonest to say the least and you have not answered my questions to you.

The article you linked to, in the Times, was just published TODAY and it was on page 10a and it was only 4 small paragraphs.

The two articles that Charles has linked to on this topic were both from international sources, Jewish one at that.

So, why in the hell do you expect the MAJORITY of Catholic to know about this already?

You suppositions are bigoted.

217 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:32am

Hre: #198 onepistoffyid

Look, just browse through here:

[Link: www.catholicblogs.com...]

218 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:34am

re: #9 lawhawk

Ill advised? I'll say. One of these priests making that kind of comment was bad; two is a trend. The Vatican is going to take a lot of flak for making a decision to bring this group back into the flock, and I'm not sure it is worth it. The Pope is going to have to go through contortions to distance himself from these kinds of statements but the stink will stick.

I'm kinda surprised Benedict did that. I thought he had better sense.

219 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:47am

re: #185 SpartanWoman

I agree and the re-scapegoating of jews is a prelude to supporting a new holocaust in order to avoid war with Islam.

Extremely perceptive!

220 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:53am
But they have also done great damage to Jewish-Christian relations by making a habit of attacking Catholics and Protestants, sometimes in hysterical terms, on matters about which Jews have no business complaining.

Telling Jews they can't complain about Holocaust deniers- unbelievable.

You stay classy, DI.

221 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:17am

re: #144 Kosh's Shadow

And there were at least two specials; a Blackadder Christmas Carol, and one where they go back in time.
Baldrick: "I've got a cunning plan, m'lord"
Blackadder: "You wouldn't know a cunning plan if it danced naked on a harpsichord saying 'cunning plans are here again'"

We watch the Blackadder Christmas Carol episode every Christmas eve. It is our little family tradition. I love how Baldrick is so stupid that he manages to write "Merry Christmas" without using a single correct letter in "Christmass" - the DVD of the episode ends showing the spelling which is "Kweeznuzz"

222 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:34am

re: #192 subsailor68

I'd like to say to that end that there is a sad, sad intelligence and motivational gap in this nation today that has led directly to the decline of popular entertainment.
In this crowd I probably didn't have to post that though.

223 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:39am

re: #186 VioletTiger

Why do you say that? Do you attend a Catholic Church? I can tell you that nothing like this is a typical part of a Sunday mass. The priests usually stick to love one another, care for you neighbor topics. If I didn't read LGF, I would have NO idea.

you didn't hear the annoucements? it was between the knight of columbus "sweetheart" dance and the St. Vincent de Paul "souper bowl" sunday drive to feed the homeless/

224 Former Belgian  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:45am

re: #91 Charles

This isn't surprising, because the Discovery Institute is promoting a far-right fundamentalist Christian philosophy. Trying to stifle criticism of the Catholic Church is perfectly consistent with their goal of promoting creationism (dressed up in flashy new pseudo-scientific clothes and labeled "intelligent design").

Interestingly, here is an interview in National Review with Klinghoffer on his book. The article claims he's an Orthodox Jew.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

225 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:52am

re: #206 MandyManners

Which expression?

That "on 9/11, we lost our innocence". He/she said (IMO correctly) that it makes it seem as if we had never been the targets of aggression before, which is of course ridiculous.

226 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:04am

re: #158 Ben Hur
I agree with you Ben. Charles would you consider responding to that?

227 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:24am

re: #211 Wishing

Well, of all the empires that chose to come against the Jewish people, not a one retains its *empire* status. That is a bit more than *spiritual*.
That is called, *Promise fulfilled*.

At too high a price to the jews. Empires fell despite their jew-killing not because of it.

228 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:44am

re: #217 Hhar

H

Look, just browse through here:

[Link: www.catholicblogs.com...]

Exactly. We tend to participate more in quieter letter writing campaigns rather than massive street protests and bloviating.

229 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:36am
230 subsailor68  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:41am

re: #222 Bumr50

I'd like to say to that end that there is a sad, sad intelligence and motivational gap in this nation today that has led directly to the decline of popular entertainment.
In this crowd I probably didn't have to post that though.

That's true. It's almost as though there's an epidemic of arrested development in some circles. An inability to mature beyond the old high school levels of humor, or thought.

231 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:56am

re: #225 Occasional Reader

That "on 9/11, we lost our innocence". He/she said (IMO correctly) that it makes it seem as if we had never been the targets of aggression before, which is of course ridiculous.

I was speaking of my years in college when I would've been a relative innocent had Islam never been spawned by that demonic bastard Mo.

232 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:21:03am

re: #229 Iron Fist

Harvard had one of the motherfuckers teaching for them

IIRC he was admitted as a student, not a professor.

233 Teacake!  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:21:11am
They are Vatican 2 rejectionists. I.e. Jews are bad because they killed God. We're talkin' Olde-Schule Catholics.

As a Jewish person what I don't understand about that is - 1. - God can not be killed. 2. - If Jesus rose up 3 days later, then he isn't dead. 3.) if Jesus resurrected those 3 days later, then where is he and why do people say he is going to return, if no one knew what happened to him after he returned?

Also, prior to Jesus, Jews were hated and civilizations tried to destroy Jews, but the reasons had nothing to do with Jesus, so what were the reasons before then? So much global fuss over such a small group of people.

234 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:21:14am

re: #185 SpartanWoman

I agree and the re-scapegoating of jews is a prelude to supporting a new holocaust in order to avoid war with Islam. There are fewer jews, they have no oil, they will not kill us if we threaten them, and we can steal their stuff in the name of God.

Pope Benedict must address this, IMO. The economic situation in the world will seek a scapegoat

Some are already looking at Madoff.

235 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:21:47am

re: #228 Honorary Yooper

Exactly. We tend to participate more in quieter letter writing campaigns rather than massive street protests and bloviating.

And here is a place where e-mail addresses are (you have to look for them but they are there), where we can make our voices heard

US Conference of Catholic Bishops

236 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:22:12am

re: #176 MandyManners

So why doesn't the pope crack the whip?

Mystery to me. The common perception of the guy was that he would have these Cardinals & Bishops standing at attention & ordering them to clean things up, that was his reputation. He must be political.

237 VioletTiger  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:22:16am

re: #198 onepistoffyid

Violet Tiger, as noted in previous posts in this thread, I am looking for any indication that the "majority of Catholics" as you say, do not agree with Williamson and Abromicz (sp?). I sense there is not alot of outrage in the US Catholic Community over the Williamson affair.


I don't know what religion you are or what kind of community you live in, but I can describe mine. I live in a town in NJ with a large % Catholic and an active church community. The church has many active youth groups, charity programs, community outreach program. What it doesn't have are political discussions or discussions on what the Catholics over in Europe are doing. We are trying to live good lives and help our neighbors. WHile this may be news in some circles, it won't hit the radar screen here. If by some chance you could poll the majority of Catholics, I am sure they would say 'WTF!?' Just like I did. But you can't be outraged over what you don't know.

238 Pastorius  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:22:36am

41 Opinionated,
Do you have a link for that info? I'd like to do a post on this.

239 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:23:10am

re: #228 Honorary Yooper

Exactly. We tend to participate more in quieter letter writing campaigns rather than massive street protests and bloviating.

Onepistoffyid could have found these sources if he wanted to. I'm sorry, this guy is a bigot. He's not interested if Catholics are really making a stink about this or not, because that would throw cold water on his bias comments.

Bigots don't need the truth, just their own hatreds.

240 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:23:18am

re: #220 Sharmuta

From my reading of the JPost article, I believe Klinghoffer's point was that running about and complaining about every little thing (like the boy who cries "wolf"), eventually won't be believed when there's a real problem. Then, Klinghoffer mentions all the "false wolf cries" -- namely that Mel Gibson film, etc.. then, he says when the "real" thing comes along (ie a Holocaust denying bishop re-instated by the pope), all the protests will fall on deaf ears...(that's my understanding of the JPost article).

241 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:24:17am

re: #219 zombie

Extremely perceptive!

There is actually a historical precedent for this during the Byzantine empire. Historians call it the "Byzantine Motiff"


[Link: www.jcpa.org...]

242 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:24:24am

read this, take it for whatever you wish

243 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:24:31am

re: #198 onepistoffyid

Violet Tiger, as noted in previous posts in this thread, I am looking for any indication that the "majority of Catholics" as you say, do not agree with Williamson and Abromicz (sp?). I sense there is not alot of outrage in the US Catholic Community over the Williamson affair.

onepistoffyid ...How many Catholics do you actually know? My entire family and extended family are Catholic ...I can never remember in our life ever hearing any of my family members ever denying the death camps ...ever ...My parents had Jewish friends when I was growing up and I remember them discussing the camps ...I have never heard of these priests before I read about them on LGF ...

I have done some research on these priests since I read it here and I will do my part as a Catholic to make sure my parish is aware of what I have just learned ...please do not put all Catholics in the same mold as these priests ...I will never turn from my faith because of these priests denial ...because my faith is more than the men in the robes ...they do not speak for me ...

244 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:25:37am

re: #237 VioletTiger

I don't know what religion you are or what kind of community you live in, but I can describe mine. I live in a town in NJ with a large % Catholic and an active church community. The church has many active youth groups, charity programs, community outreach program. What it doesn't have are political discussions or discussions on what the Catholics over in Europe are doing. We are trying to live good lives and help our neighbors. WHile this may be news in some circles, it won't hit the radar screen here. If by some chance you could poll the majority of Catholics, I am sure they would say 'WTF!?' Just like I did. But you can't be outraged over what you don't know.

I appreciate that and it might assuage my growing paranoid of future genocide, but just a little.

245 monkeytime  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:25:45am

From Bill Donohue, President of the Catholic League:

...“Here are the facts. The pope didn’t reach out to any one member of this group—he lifted the excommunication that had been imposed in 1988 on the collectivity. Those bishops, including the one who entertains loopy and wholly discredited views on the Holocaust, are not fully reinstated in the Catholic Church, and may never be. What the pope did was the first step toward full communion. As the New York Times correctly said on January 28, this was ‘a step toward the men’s full restoration to the church, but their status has yet to be determined.’ (My emphasis.)"

246 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:26:31am

re: #178 Gang of One
Well, I guess there are certain circumstance (nuclear wars for example) where I could agree with your assertion that: "Still, when they are gone and when their liberators are gone, only the tales remain -- and we know such documents cannot endure forever."
But other than that (nuclear wars or whatever) I think those records and documents will indeed live on.
Dwight D. Eisenhower's diary(ies) and writings are extremely telling in their detailed and horrific compiliations of what the Nazi's did to Jews (and others) in those camps. What I write will not long be remembered. But what Ike wrote did and will be.
But of course we must, as indeed Charles is doing here, continuously remind people and teach our children the truths of the Holocaust.

247 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:26:36am

re: #237 VioletTiger

We can't know for sure, but his handle ends with "yid" which doesn't make sense, since that is a derogatory epithet for a Jew (yiddish) unless it's pronounced "yeed," and in that case, it is not derogatory since that is the way a yiddish speaker pronounces it.

248 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:26:46am

re: #244 onepistoffyid

I appreciate that and it might assuage my growing paranoid of future genocide, but just a little.

you do not need to fear genocide at the hands of the Catholics or our Church.

249 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:26:58am

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

Onepistoffyid could have found these sources if he wanted to. I'm sorry, this guy is a bigot. He's not interested if Catholics are really making a stink about this or not, because that would throw cold water on his bias comments.

Bigots don't need the truth, just their own hatreds.

I am really beginning to think you are a douchebag

250 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:28:30am

re: #85 Honorary Yooper

Then I take back my accusation in #76.

Actually, now I don't. He is a bigot.

251 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:29:02am

re: #243 JacksonTn

onepistoffyid ...How many Catholics do you actually know? My entire family and extended family are Catholic ...I can never remember in our life ever hearing any of my family members ever denying the death camps ...ever ...My parents had Jewish friends when I was growing up and I remember them discussing the camps ...I have never heard of these priests before I read about them on LGF ...

I have done some research on these priests since I read it here and I will do my part as a Catholic to make sure my parish is aware of what I have just learned ...please do not put all Catholics in the same mold as these priests ...I will never turn from my faith because of these priests denial ...because my faith is more than the men in the robes ...they do not speak for me ...

well said.

252 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

you've heard of Your text to link...

253 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:18am

re: #252 phoenixgirl

ooops

254 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:28am

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

We can't know for sure, but his handle ends with "yid" which doesn't make sense, since that is a derogatory epithet for a Jew (yiddish) unless it's pronounced "yeed," and in that case, it is not derogatory since that is the way a yiddish speaker pronounces it.

As Lawrence Summers says, I am a jew; identified but certainly not devout. Does it matter?

255 debutaunt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:29am

re: #209 MandyManners

I don't insult my television by watchig the dreck.

The recent Burn Notice when Fi was babysitting - hilarious!

256 monkeytime  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:33am

I am Catholic and have always been a staunch supporter of the Jewish people and was raised with the Jewish people refered to as "Our older brothers and sisters in the Faith" with the deepest respect. My Catholic friends and I pray daily for Isreal. Don't let what a bunch of idiots say make you think otherwise. There are millions and millions of Catholics. There are bound to be screwballs in the mix. I wouldn't let a couple of Jewish people spouting anti-Catholic sentiments deter me from my opinion of the Jewish people as a whole.

257 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:31:01am

re: #253 phoenixgirl

my text should read yid with lid

258 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:31:37am

re: #249 onepistoffyid

I am really beginning to think you are a douchebag

I don't care. You're refusal to answer any of my questions speaks volumes.

259 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:31:57am

re: #249 onepistoffyid

I am really beginning to think you are a douchebag

Got a mirror? You might not like what you see.

260 Nemesis6  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:32:10am

Rehabilitated by the Catholic pope Benedict... Ew.

261 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:32:12am

re: #252 phoenixgirl

you've heard of Your text to link...

Yes. I've heard of that blog and visit from time to time.
Not so sure I will anymore . . .

262 vagabond trader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:33:00am

Medieval religious fanatics, where have we heard that before. Yawn.

263 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:33:44am

re: #187 Occasional Reader
"On 9/11, we lost our innocence." I certainly didn't rail against that, but would add the word "again" after "innocence". Generations differ in their memories and in their relative degrees of innocence.
Certainly the WWII generation lost their innocence when Pearl Harbor was attacked, as but one example.
We are, I'm afraid, in only 8 years, faced with a new "innocence" which is only in part accounted for by these formerly excommunicated "priests" and by people like Vlaams Belang and Pat Buchannan. We simply fail to teach HISTORY to our children and we do not like to talk about it with them until we are too old to be taken seriously by them.

264 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:33:55am

re: #254 onepistoffyid

As Lawrence Summers says, I am a jew; identified but certainly not devout. Does it matter?

What the hey does Larry Summers have to do with this (yes, I know who Larry Summers is, so don't ask)? I was explaining to the commenter that you may be coming from a Jewish viewpoint.

That's fine with me, ok with you?

265 jill e  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:34:48am

And Williamson apologized...

266 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:04am

BBIAW - time to get ready for the theatre.

267 Eowyn2  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:09am

re: #141 onepistoffyid

You're a class act. Again, provide me with one link of a lay catholic protesting the Williamson affair which has been widely publicized.

lay Catholics are not widely publicized.

268 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:38am
269 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:58am

"The four are members of the traditionalist St. Pius X Society, founded in 1970 by a French archbishop, Marcel Lefebvre, in opposition to the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

The bishops were excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in 1988 after Archbishop Lefebvre, who died in 1991, ordained them without Vatican permission.

The society has not said whether it will accept the reforms of Vatican II, and the Vatican has not yet determined the bishops’ future standing within the church. On Tuesday, the society apologized to the pope for the outcry caused by Bishop Williamson’s remarks and said they did not represent its views."
the rest:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

The Pope has rescinded the excommunication of these people in order to rehabilitate them. Forgiveness is a central tenet of Christianity and is largely a private matter between the sinner and God . Or in Catholicism, between the priest intermediary, the sinner and God. No offense intended, but the public 'apologies' the Rabbinate is demanding don't fulfill the requirements.

Furthermore, it's quite possible and even probable, that this Pope is responding pragmatically to the rising anti-Semitic fervor infecting Europe/the world by inaugurating a revocation of the excommunication (keep in mind, this order is not officially Catholic at this point, no matter their claims to the contrary .. their sins rose to the level of schism) and getting the bad boys back into the flock where they will most certainly be rendered less harmfully influential. They will have to play by the rules they broke in the first place. This is not a done deal, it's still in the negotiating stages. The wise would consider it a good thing if the Church made these rebels an offer they couldn't refuse. The ignorant will use this as yet another opportunity to practice the hate learned, sadly, at parental knees.

Many of the comments posted on this issue amount to a revival of anti-religious, specifically anti-Catholic, stupidity. Be forewarned: I don't intend to engage in any arguments w/bigots.

270 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:37:06am

re: #122 onepistoffyid

Again, this issue is everywhere.....I have been looking for outrage from lay Catholics...please attach links that you know of.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

The NYTimes is NOT the entirety of the media.

271 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:37:20am

re: #193 wahabicorridor
{wahabi} what a truly wonderful post. Thank you for that.
BTW, I've reported that comment to Charles in the hope that, should we get the thread I think we could use on this Disco Institute/Holocaust Denial/Barbarians thread, he will read it and contemplate it in his thread.
Again, thank you.

272 VioletTiger  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:38:09am

re: #256 monkeytime

I am Catholic and have always been a staunch supporter of the Jewish people and was raised with the Jewish people refered to as "Our older brothers and sisters in the Faith" with the deepest respect. My Catholic friends and I pray daily for Isreal. Don't let what a bunch of idiots say make you think otherwise. There are millions and millions of Catholics. There are bound to be screwballs in the mix. I wouldn't let a couple of Jewish people spouting anti-Catholic sentiments deter me from my opinion of the Jewish people as a whole.


Very well said, couldn't agree more. Every group has their nutbags. Let's not judge the whole by the worst of the bunch.

273 kynna  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:38:54am

re: #265 jill e

And Williamson apologized...

He apologized for speaking his true feelings aloud. He wants his job back. It's very close to that other kind of apology: I'm sorry your feelings were hurt.

Weren't many Catholics caught in the Nazi net, too? These priests are really quite ugly for behaving this way.

274 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:39:18am

re: #258 Walter L. Newton

I don't care. You're refusal to answer any of my questions speaks volumes.

Go back and re-read my previous posts. I am not specifically referring to Catholic protests against this recent obscure priest since it is obscure right now. I am primarily referring to the Williamson matter that is widely publicized-it is the same issue as this new priest i.e. Catholic clergy denying the Holocaust.


I will therefore ask you again, do you have any evidence or links of ANY protests regarding this issue by any American Catholics since the Williamson story broke.

If not, will you (I assume you are Catholic) write an editorial protesting this in your local paper?

275 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:39:44am

re: #145 Charles

That JPost article may need to be a front page post. What a creepy way to promote intelligent design.

Is there any uncreepy way to promote ID?

276 LGoPs  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:40:42am

re: #248 phoenixgirl

you do not need to fear genocide at the hands of the Catholics or our Church.

Ditto. Those of us out there who would never allow that to happen again are legion......

277 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:41:31am
278 yidwithlid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:41:36am

re: #257 phoenixgirl

HUH? How did I get into this conversation.

279 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:42:24am

re: #267 Eowyn2

lay Catholics are not widely publicized.

editorials, interviews, protests...etc.

280 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:44:08am

re: #264 Walter L. Newton

What the hey does Larry Summers have to do with this (yes, I know who Larry Summers is, so don't ask)? I was explaining to the commenter that you may be coming from a Jewish viewpoint.

That's fine with me, ok with you?

I just like the way Mr. Summers put it, since he and I are very secular, not that that would save our ass if the global jew hatred keeps heating up the way it is.

281 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:45:38am

BBIAW.

282 VioletTiger  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:45:49am

re: #274 onepistoffyid

Go back and re-read my previous posts. I am not specifically referring to Catholic protests against this recent obscure priest since it is obscure right now. I am primarily referring to the Williamson matter that is widely publicized-it is the same issue as this new priest i.e. Catholic clergy denying the Holocaust.


I will therefore ask you again, do you have any evidence or links of ANY protests regarding this issue by any American Catholics since the Williamson story broke.

If not, will you (I assume you are Catholic) write an editorial protesting this in your local paper?


I'll bring a copy of this article to my church on Sunday and hand deliver it to our priest.

283 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:46:20am

re: #269 Daisy

their sins rose to the level of schism

Keep in mind that, according to Dante, schismatics were condemned to the bottom of the 8th circle of hell, and causing schisms in the church was considered just about the greatest of all sins -- only Judas Iscariot and Cain (and a couple others) are lower in Hell.

Interestingly the historical figure used by Dante to personify the schismatics was...Mohammed!

Anyway, early Popes would have extirpated these people from the church in two seconds flat for causing a schism. (And even earlier Popes would have had them executed on the spot.) (And even earlier earlier Popes would have raised an army and wiped out these guys' home countries.) This new Pope is trying out some touchy-feely "restorative justice" PC methods in an attempt to solve the problem, but it will only backfire.

284 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:46:27am

re: #273 kynna

He apologized for speaking his true feelings aloud. He wants his job back. It's very close to that other kind of apology: I'm sorry your feelings were hurt.

Weren't many Catholics caught in the Nazi net, too? These priests are really quite ugly for behaving this way.

Yes, more than a few priests were sent to the gas chambers by the Nazis. Some for speaking out against the Nazi regime, some for protecting Jews and those of Jewish ancestry in their flock. People often forget that Jews only made up half of those killed in the Holocaust (6 million out of an estimated total of 12 million). Priests, nuns, poltical enemies, Rom, and others were killed there as well.

285 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:46:56am

re: #282 VioletTiger

I'll bring a copy of this article to my church on Sunday and hand deliver it to our priest.

Thank you, I appreciate that. If you knew the history of my family, you would understand my paranoia......

286 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:48:28am

re: #285 onepistoffyid

Thank you, I appreciate that. If you knew the history of my family, you would understand my paranoia......

Um, lots of us have had ancestors or relatives persecuted. Ever hear of the Volga Germans, for example?

287 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:49:54am

re: #256 monkeytime

I am Catholic and have always been a staunch supporter of the Jewish people and was raised with the Jewish people refered to as "Our older brothers and sisters in the Faith" with the deepest respect. My Catholic friends and I pray daily for Isreal. Don't let what a bunch of idiots say make you think otherwise. There are millions and millions of Catholics. There are bound to be screwballs in the mix. I wouldn't let a couple of Jewish people spouting anti-Catholic sentiments deter me from my opinion of the Jewish people as a whole.

monkeytime, I agree. Crucially, it's important to recognize that this bunch is NOT Catholic. They were excommunicated. And now there is some possibility that their excommunication will be lifted, most likely in order to neutralize their regressive efforts by practical, merciful forgiveness. Forgiveness that comes w/the cost of doing better behavior in adherence to actual Catholic doctrine.

As a Christian in a Jewish family, I've experienced serious levels of both acceptance and intolerance due to my religious upbringing. I'm very familiar w/this particular brand of ignorance and intolerance and am quite capable of recognizing its stench.

288 jcbunga  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:50:26am

Is it any wonder the Church got so bent out of shape with the invention of the printing press way back when...The Word being available to all those unwashed masses and such.

These guys walk around sputtering this nonsense like nobody will notice or call them on it.

If he gives up the cloth he always has a career in politics.

289 onepistoffyid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:50:36am

re: #286 Honorary Yooper

Um, lots of us have had ancestors or relatives persecuted. Ever hear of the Volga Germans, for example?

There is no comparison.

290 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:53:15am

re: #288 jcbunga

Maybe you'll find this interesting: The Catholic Irish monks taught the throughly ignorant pagan savages in Europe to read.

291 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:54:00am

re: #278 yidwithlid

see post #247

i was responding to him about his comment. you popped into my mind. :)

292 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:55:40am

re: #233 Teacake!

If I can explain in a terribly awkward way....
You're right- you can't kill God. Jesus is one of the three beings in one Godhead (we call it a mystery). As God decided to reveal Himself to the Jews, the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary, daughter of Joachim, and she had Baby Jesus in Bethlehem. Jesus, as a result, had two natures- human and divine. Because He was human, He could suffer and die. The Jewish authorities, not willing to get their hands dirty, gave Jesus up to the Romans to scourge and crucify. He died and was buried. On Sunday, He rose from the dead. By dying, He destroyed sin and death so all could have salvation. However the feat was accomplished, Jesus died so we all could live.
The Holy Father has thoughts on what the Holocaust means for modern man here.
And it's "Messy Kweznus".

293 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:57:40am

re: #285 onepistoffyid

Thank you, I appreciate that. If you knew the history of my family, you would understand my paranoia......

That doesn't excuse your bigoted inclusion of "majority of Catholics." No more than I except anyone claiming that a majority of Muslims are terrorists, or a majority of Jews are this or that.

Don't you even understand why you are rubbing a lot of people here the wrong way?

Yes, I hope this get out and a lot of Catholics denounce this, but your assumption that the majority won't, is bigoted.

Oh, but the way, I'm an atheist. I said above I don't have a religious dog in this fight. You don't read my comments,, do you?

294 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:57:53am

re: #284 Honorary Yooper

Yes, more than a few priests were sent to the gas chambers by the Nazis. Some for speaking out against the Nazi regime, some for protecting Jews and those of Jewish ancestry in their flock. People often forget that Jews only made up half of those killed in the Holocaust (6 million out of an estimated total of 12 million). Priests, nuns, poltical enemies, Rom, and others were killed there as well.

the current Pope's cousin, a mentally retarded teenager, was murdered by the nazi's

295 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:58:44am

re: #289 onepistoffyid

There is no comparison.

I'm sure the Armenians might beg to differ, as would the Rom.

Point is, a lot of groups have been persecuted thoughout history. Some have been persucted more, some less. I'm more than certain a lot of LGFers have family stories about it.

296 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:59:11am

re: #278 yidwithlid

HUH? How did I get into this conversation.

Are some getting you confused with OnePissoffYid (OnePissoffYid and Yidwith Lid -- these are two different/separate people here, I'm assuming)...(o brother, more of the problems with anonymous posters?...)

297 Pastorius  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:59:54am

265 Jill E,

Williamson apologized in the same way Muslims apologize. Read these words from the article you linked:

VATICAN CITY (AP) - A bishop recently rehabilitated by Pope Benedict XVI expressed regret Friday to the pontiff for the "distress and problems" he caused by denying the Holocaust.
In a letter to the Vatican, Bishop Richard Williamson, who recently denied in a TV interview that 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, called his remarks "imprudent."

That's the same thing as when Muslims say that another Muslims anti-Semitism does not help the dialogue.

this is a b.s. apology, and though I am not a Jew, I say, "NOT ACCEPTED."

298 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:01:13am

re: #296 J.S.

oops...yeah, ok, instead of "OnePissOffYid" that should read "OnePistoffYid" -- got it! (my mistake).

299 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:02:23am

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

That doesn't excuse your bigoted inclusion of "majority of Catholics." No more than I except anyone claiming that a majority of Muslims are terrorists, or a majority of Jews are this or that.

Don't you even understand why you are rubbing a lot of people here the wrong way?

Yes, I hope this get out and a lot of Catholics denounce this, but your assumption that the majority won't, is bigoted.

Oh, but the way, I'm an atheist. I said above I don't have a religious dog in this fight. You don't read my comments,, do you?

Thank you, Walter.

300 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:03:10am

re: #296 J.S.

i can separate onepissedoffyid with yidwithlid

i was pointing something out to walter....in his comment #247. i read walter's comment, yidwithlid popped into my mind. :)

301 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:03:16am

re: #299 reine.de.tout

Thank you, Walter.

You're welcome.

302 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:03:30am

re: #297 Pastorius

265 Jill E,

Williamson apologized in the same way Muslims apologize. Read these words from the article you linked:

VATICAN CITY (AP) - A bishop recently rehabilitated by Pope Benedict XVI expressed regret Friday to the pontiff for the "distress and problems" he caused by denying the Holocaust.
In a letter to the Vatican, Bishop Richard Williamson, who recently denied in a TV interview that 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, called his remarks "imprudent."

That's the same thing as when Muslims say that another Muslims anti-Semitism does not help the dialogue.

this is a b.s. apology, and though I am not a Jew, I say, "NOT ACCEPTED."

Correct, not an apology at all.

Now, what exactly is it you want from those of us here who are Catholic, and who have clearly stated we are disgusted with the sentiments expressed by Williamson and his cohorts?

to renounce our religion?
what? What do you want?

303 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:04:54am

re: #300 phoenixgirl

O, I see -- you mean about the colloquial use of the word "Yid"...Ok. got it!

304 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:05:10am

re: #283 zombie

zombie, Very interesting info re: schism. The original excommunicating Pope did consider this movement a schismatic movement. Also, Pope Benedict strikes me as a decidedly un touchy feely man. I believe his proffering is practical to the core and moreover believe his attempts at "re-unification" are twofold: allow the Church to move away from touchy feely infantile behavior to true Conservatism, and remove the false mantle/claim of Conservatism the Frenchified reverts have employed to no good end, bring them into the fold and redefine Catholic conservatism. This Pope is no dummy.

305 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:06:41am

re: #302 reine.de.tout

Correct, not an apology at all.

Now, what exactly is it you want from those of us here who are Catholic, and who have clearly stated we are disgusted with the sentiments expressed by Williamson and his cohorts?

to renounce our religion?
what? What do you want?

i've been wondering that as well.....sigh......won't point out that there are plenty of examples of plenty of other religions with plenty of people that don't do a great job of representing them.....

306 jcbunga  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:12:57am

re: #290 Daisy

Maybe you'll find this interesting: The Catholic Irish monks taught the throughly ignorant pagan savages in Europe to read.

My ancestors were no doubt amongst those savages. I doubt it did any good :)

307 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:13:14am

re: #286 Honorary Yooper

Ummm....Its true: lots of people have pretty grim family histories. But persecution is in our bones, Honorary Yooper. Waaaayyyy deep. Lemme give you an example: If someone wants to convert to Judaism, and persists, there are a range of different iopinions on what their commitment must be in terms of observance. some say a convert must accept and practice under the burden of the whole of the Jewish law before conversion. Others say, no, they can convert and still keep learning, as long as they are committed to such learning and practice. But just about everybody, from my understanding, agrees: a convert must commit to share the burden of our history with us: to share in our persecutions when they occur. Not if: when.

I don't want to to minimise anyone else's suffering, nor ask for special treatment. I just want to point out that you are dealing with a very old, literate culture with recurrent themes in it. Jews are big on remembering. There are very few nations on earth like ours (none others, in my opinion) , and very few persecutions like ours. Not sayin' that to get special treatment: just sayin that so you know where people are coming from, if you don't already.

308 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:16:05am

Daledamos has something up:

5. What is the Church’s teaching on Jews and Judaism? The most authoritative teaching is found in Nostra aetate, paragraph 4: “God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle” Anything reminiscent of the teaching of contempt, including the charge of deicide (that Jews were or are responsible for the death of Jesus), is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic teaching today. The Catholic Church continues to take heart from the example of the late Pope John Paul II who made it his consistent aim to heal the memories of the past and forge deeper bonds of friendship
with the Jewish people of the present age. We recall and abide by what the Pontiff, addressing the leaders of the Jewish community in Strasbourg in 1988, stated: “I repeat again with you the strongest condemnation of anti-Semitism and racism, which are opposed to the principles of Christianity. The Catholic Church therefore repudiates every persecution against a people or human group anywhere, at any time. She absolutely condemns all forms of genocide, as well as the racist ideologies which give rise to them. Looking back over this century, we are deeply saddened by the violence that has enveloped whole groups of peoples and nations.”
[]
2. Comments by Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, Archbishop of Bordeaux, Member of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei on January 26, 2009:
“The lifting of the excommunication is not the end, but the beginning of a process of dialogue. It does not resolve two fundamental questions: the juridical structure of the Fraternity of St. Pius X in the Church and an agreement on dogmatic and ecclesiological questions. But it opens a path to walk together. This path will undoubtedly be long. It will require better mutual knowledge and respect. At a certain moment the question of the text of the Second Vatican Council, as a document of the Magisterium of primary importance, must be faced. This is fundamental. But all the difficulties will not necessarily be only of a doctrinal order. Others, of a cultural and political nature, will also emerge. The recent unacceptable statements of Bishop Williamson, denying the drama of the extermination of the Jews, is one example.”

309 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:16:08am

re: #302 reine.de.tout

Correct, not an apology at all.

Now, what exactly is it you want from those of us here who are Catholic, and who have clearly stated we are disgusted with the sentiments expressed by Williamson and his cohorts?

to renounce our religion?
what? What do you want?

Yes, what's being asked is that you renounce your religion and furthermore, and despite reality, claim that the holocaust deniers are Catholic, which they are not, and so, by extension, the Pope is a holocaust denier, which he isn't. This sort of demand sure has a way of taking reason right off the table!

310 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:17:08am

re: #306 jcbunga

My ancestors were no doubt amongst those savages. I doubt it did any good :)

Sure it did good! We are writing and reading now, aren't we?

311 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:17:13am

re: #307 Hhar

Ummm....Its true: lots of people have pretty grim family histories. But persecution is in our bones, Honorary Yooper. Waaaayyyy deep. Lemme give you an example: If someone wants to convert to Judaism, and persists, there are a range of different iopinions on what their commitment must be in terms of observance. some say a convert must accept and practice under the burden of the whole of the Jewish law before conversion. Others say, no, they can convert and still keep learning, as long as they are committed to such learning and practice. But just about everybody, from my understanding, agrees: a convert must commit to share the burden of our history with us: to share in our persecutions when they occur. Not if: when.

I don't want to to minimise anyone else's suffering, nor ask for special treatment. I just want to point out that you are dealing with a very old, literate culture with recurrent themes in it. Jews are big on remembering. There are very few nations on earth like ours (none others, in my opinion) , and very few persecutions like ours. Not sayin' that to get special treatment: just sayin that so you know where people are coming from, if you don't already.

And everything you said is so true, and I agree with your sentiments.

But, in context of what has transpired in these comments this morning, how does your comment relate to what many here saw as a bigoted comment by onepissedoffyid?

I'm not sure of what you are saying. I have to forgive bigoted remarks because of the source?

312 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:20:34am

re: #308 wahabicorridor

All that plus, one can go back to Pope Pius the Xl and Xll and read much more of the same. The Church's stand against the Nazis is nothing new, despite wishful thinking to the contrary.

313 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:24:04am

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

walter, you don't have to do anything.....:)

314 Pastorius  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:25:20am

302 Reine de Tout,

No, I don't want average Catholics to renounce their religion.

Go to my website:

www.cuanas.blogspot.com

you will find the Ratzinger Fan Club and First Things magazine on my blogroll. I'm not anti-Catholic. However, I will say this, the Pope has stepped in a steaming pile here, and he'd better get some new shoes.

315 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:25:47am

re: #307 Hhar

the Irish have a long memory as well

316 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:26:30am

I'm saying that a lot of Catholics don't really understand Jews, and vice versa. re: #311 Walter L. Newton

And everything you said is so true, and I agree with your sentiments.

But, in context of what has transpired in these comments this morning, how does your comment relate to what many here saw as a bigoted comment by onepissedoffyid?

I'm not sure of what you are saying. I have to forgive bigoted remarks because of the source?

I'm saying that a lot of Catholics don't really understand Jews, and vice versa. I think a lot of where onepissedoffyid is coming from is a misapprehension of Catholics that is quite common amoung Jews, and a lot of the reaction to him by catholics also reflects misapprehension.

You can act towards him how you like: I don't have a dog in this fight. I have my opinions on the whole affair, but I don't want to get into them. But if we are going to have another bout of Jew-vs-Catholic (it has happened in epic form on this blog before) at least the brawlers should know who they are kicking at. Me, I know a lot of Catholics very well: I can't imagine them being anything other than sickened by this Williamson person. On the other hand, I know most observant Christians just don't "get" Jews on this issue, even sometimes the ones who work really hard at it.

317 MJ  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:26:53am

Abraham Cooper and Yitzchok Adlerstein

What the Pope Should Do To Reassure the World

Pope Benedict's decision to undo the excommunication of Bishop Richard Williamson, an unrepentant Holocaust denier, has been met with wall to wall condemnation. Short of the launch of a new Crusade, it is hard to imagine how the Pope could have ignited such outrage with one decision. Yet there is an even greater crisis waiting in the wings that will soon be picked up by world media. Williamson's fellow travelers -- the entire network of the breakaway Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) -- are vocal enthusiasts of a medieval religious anti-Semitism that gives the Islamist imams in Pakistan some serious competition....

[Link: newsweek.washingtonpost.com...]

318 iam7545  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:27:55am

Proof of the Vaticans attitude towards Jews is evident in the here and now. The Pope recently called Gaza a concentration camp and once again sided with those forces that seek to destroy the Jews in Israel and everywhere else.

That he is now bringing these Holocaust denying Clergy back into the fold proves his anti semitic beliefs and is of less consequence.

319 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:28:54am

re: #312 Daisy

And please see my #193

320 Yidwithlid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:29:31am

re: #291 phoenixgirl

But there was a link to my blog and the words not going there anymore. I haven't even written on the subject!

But Since I was brought in on the subject:
To be honest I have little respect for the ADL because Abe Foxman spends too much time promoting Obama, abortion and Illegal immigration which goes way beyond the scope of what the ADL is supposed to be doing and have blasted him/ADL and to be honest must of the Jewish community leadership.

That said, IMHO while I wish the Pope did not re institute the Holocaust denying Priest, the guy wasn't excommunicated because of his biased views, he was excommunicated because they thought he was trying to split up the church. He is not being brought back because of his hate speech either. This is not a Jewish/Catholic issue, it is a Catholic/Catholic issue.

Do Jews have a chip on their shoulder about the Holocaust...Probably. But that Chip is justified...the last 2,000 years have really sucked. And judging by some of the Anti-Israel rallies over the past few weeks things (even in the US things are a bit scary. So some of us (me included) can be a bit Jumpy.

Pope John Paul II was the best Pope that the Jews ever had, This Pope is a very good one for Jewish/Papal relations also--To say that he is an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier is simply stupid. Some times people have to understand that WE (the non-Catholics) are not the Pope's first priority (nor should we be).

Finally, one of the Tenants of Judaism, is tolerance of other people's religious beliefs, that's why we have the term Righteous Gentile. When we look at actions of a someone who isn't Jewish, we should be evaluating their actions from their perspective and beliefs, not from ours, from that point of view while there may be some disappointment in the Pope's actions, there is no reason to tag him with claims of bias.

321 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:31:01am

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

I believe Hhar was responding to a post by Honorary Yooper (wasn't, necessarily, addressing OnePistoffYid's remarks/bigotry, etc. (?)

322 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:31:22am

re: #320 Yidwithlid

yidwithlid.....lounge?

323 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:32:46am

re: #318 iam7545

Proof of the Vaticans attitude towards Jews is evident in the here and now. The Pope recently called Gaza a concentration camp and once again sided with those forces that seek to destroy the Jews in Israel and everywhere else.

That he is now bringing these Holocaust denying Clergy back into the fold proves his anti semitic beliefs and is of less consequence.

Oh stop. It wasn't the Pope. It was the Justice Minister Martino

The representative of Pope Benedict XVI for matters of justice and peace, issues the toughest criticism by the Vatican against Israel.

On Wednesday, Cardinal Renato Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace voiced the Holy See's strongest criticism since the latest Mideast crisis began, calling Gaza a "big concentration camp", Reuters reported.
Martino made the statement while speaking in an interview with the Italian online newspaper Il Sussidiario.net.

"Defenseless populations are always the ones who pay. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp", Martino, (his informal title in the Vatican is "justice minister") said.

This comes at a time when the Pope has not openly criticized Israel and has only made several general appeals for an end to the violence in Gaza.

324 Yidwithlid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #303 J.S.

When I was growing up, my friends and I used the term Yid With Lid to describe a Religious Jew wearing a Yarmulke (the lid).

I started blogging at around the same time I became more observant and started wearing a Yarmulke all the time, so I adopted the handle Yidwithlid.

325 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:34:43am

re: #194 Quintus_Arius

IMHO (which I think highly of) Pope Benedict XVI believes that the the only buffer between Muslim hegemony and the rest of us is the Catholic Church. With the election of Barack Obama he has become more convinced.

Reconciling break-away conservative Catholic groups works toward that end only.

What is more of story: There were 19 of 25 Catholic senators that voted to support Obama's foreign abortion reversal. I bet they were all Democrats.

The Catholic Chrich's embrace of Holocaust-denying priests is tantamount to antijihadists embracing euroneonazis.

326 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:36:51am

re: #307 Hhar

"Jews are big on remembering."

Do you remember what Golda Meir (and many other Jews) said after WW2 about Pope Pius XXll's efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Holocaust? She honored his successful efforts. Pope Pius personally housed thousands of Jews over time in his Vatican summer house - thereby saving lives. He also issued thousands of false documents to Jewish families - helping people escape/live. He loudly decried the Nazis in Papal pronouncements. Today he is referred to as Hitler's Pope (as is his predecessor, Pius the 11th, who not only - but almost singularly - recognized and denounced the logical projection of Hitler's rise, and claimed solidarity w/the Jews from the start, claiming, among other things, "That we are all Semitic". Pius the XXl quite correctly identified the Nationalist Socialist Party as 'pagans' ).

Memory can be a funny kind of thing, depending on how it's informed.

327 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:37:41am

re: #324 Yidwithlid

Yes. And you're not to be confused with OnePistoffYid (as was done in post 261, i believe)...

328 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:38:07am

re: #109 zombie

As many, many scholars have pointed out for centuries before me, there are various passages in the Gospels that seem fishy [...] Particularly the line, "His blood be upon us and upon our children." Seriously: What lynch mob would say such a thing?

Not only that, but the idea that Pilate would've been greatly reluctant to crucify Jesus or anyone else accused of declaring himself "king of the Jews" is completely at odds with historical accounts of Pilate's character -- he was a hard-ass and a "hangin' judge."

Here's what's vastly more probable: early Christians Jews-for-Jesus invented the idea that the Jewish Establishment had twisted poor Pilate's arm to make him crucify Jesus, because after the fall of Jerusalem, the Jews-for-Jesus were still greatly fearful of Roman power and wanted to avoid antagonizing the Romans -- but they no longer had any need to worry about recriminations from the Jewish Establishment.

These made-up stories of Pilate being a super-nice guy who personally wanted to spare Jesus's life were interpolated into the early drafts of the Gospels, and at the time these proto-Christian Jews-for-Jesus did not foresee that they were laying the groundwork for the charge of deicide, which would only develop later, after Christianity had fully split off from Judaism and taken on a life of its own.

329 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #319 wahabicorridor

Thanks, it's helpful.

330 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:43:23am

It is good when these people come out of the woodwork. Lets us know who they are, and gives the Church a chance to distance itself. As many have pointed out, you can't be excommunicated for being an idiot, even a pernicious and hateful one.

But you can be gagged, like Williamson, and I hope the Church will do the same for this fool.

It's a pity Aquinas never lived to complete his Summa contra idiotae.

331 Jonathan Constantine  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:43:52am

re: #91 Charles

Charles, perhaps you are right about Mr. Klinghoffer's anti-evolutionary stance. He did say in his JPost article:

Meanwhile, Jewish groups continue to pillory the Christian churches for their alleged guilt in fomenting the Holocaust. That's despite the fact that Hitler himself clearly dismissed as ineffective any fancied strategy to try to whip up Germans with appeals to punish the Christ-killers. In Mein Kampf, an influential best-seller, he relied on the language of Darwinian biology to declare a race war against the Jews.

But isn't he right? It was Hitler's devotion to the ideology of social Darwinism, the science of eugenics, and his goal of attaining a master race which lead to the Holocaust. Wasn't it Pope Pius XII through his belief in God's love for all humanity which lead to the rescue of Jews from gas chambers in Europe. Here is an excerpt from his bio from the Jewish Virtual Library:

Zolli devoted an entire chapter in his memoirs to the German occupation of Rome and praised the Pope's leadership: "... The people of Rome loathed the Nazis and had intense pity for the Jews. They willingly assisted in the evacuation of the Jewish population into remote villages, where they were concealed and protected by Christian families. Christian families in the heart of Rome accepted Jews. There was money in the treasury for the support of destitute refugees thus hidden. The Holy Father sent by hand a letter to the bishops instructing them to lift the enclosure from convents and monasteries, so that they could become refuges for the Jews. I know of one convent where the Sisters slept in the basement, giving up their beds to Jewish refugees. In face of this charity, the fate of so many of the persecuted is especially tragic."

This is perhaps the reason why Hitler hated Christians so much:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

The world is a little more complex than the dualistic battle between the faithful and the scientifically inductive as you can just as easily link the latter to evil motives and defamed pre-Vatican II traditionalists to good deeds and heroism.

332 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #330 Cato the Elder

I believe the two fold intention of this Pope is to gag them by inviting them back, neutralizing them and reclaiming Catholic conservatism, not leaving it up to these haters to define. Oh, yes, and offering them a chance at eternal salvation.

333 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:52:26am

Daisy, I know. Catholics died, with Jews. Catholics were killed defending Jews, hiding them, smuggling them. There are stories of great courage and bottomless love. But history is complicated. I also remember the vatican rat lines. The hiding of Jewish children in convents and schools to keep their surviving relatives from finding them.

There is one story in particular you may have heard of: that of the Chief rabbi of Rome, saved by the Pope, and a convert to catholicism. I've had Catholic proselytisers cite him to me. I've been told he is an example of a "perfected jew". But what they don't say is this: he never should have hid himself. His place was in the camps with his congregation. His congregation rejected him for that moral failure. And that is an example of a "perfected Jew". I wonder if you can understand what I think of that term.

This is a divide that cannot be healed by anything now here on earth. We all have to live with it, and take individuals as they come to us. History offers no comfort. Just my opinion.

334 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:52:55am

re: #325 Salamantis

Absurd. The Vatican is not embracing "holocaust-denying priests" as if "holocaust-denying" gave reason for the embrace.

The removal of the "excommunicate" category is a precise, finite legal action. Williamson remains a priest and is in communion with the Church -- like many sinners, myself included. His Masses, however, while sacramentally valid, are still illicit. He cannot do other priestly things, too. He remains formally suspended.

That said, good for Charles and others for using this as a wedge for putting pressure where it belongs: on those who can easily use their stature (such as the Pope) to marginalize the vile stupidity of holocaust deniers and their views.

This needs to be done, over and over again, -- and joyfully, since there is no shame whatsoever in being given the opportunity to proclaim what is both right, and just.

335 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:53:25am

re: #331 Jonathan Constantine

I updinged you for a knowledgable post.

But isn't he right?

Yes and no. I've slogged through Mein Kampf, and assuming the translation is worth the powder to blow it to hell, Darwin ain't in there. (I'm told it's every bit as turgid in German.)

However, eugenics did/does base its justification on the Darwinian 'survival of the fittest'.
And of course, Hitler used eugenics to justify genocide, infanticide, etc.

The problem here is this - hate will use any means to its end - even science

336 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:57:25am
337 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:58:07am

One thing that needs to be remembered is that all SSPX priests are still "suspended a divinis," which theoretically means that although they remain Catholic priests and are still empowered to perform a limited number of priestly functions (such as officiating at a Mass), they are under extreme suspicion and have no teaching authority as far as the Church is concerned.

I've been thinking about Benedict's motives for lifting the excommunications, and it seems to me the most optimistic interpretation is that he did it with the full expectation of having to re-excommunicate Williamson and others as part of a future purge of SSPX. But maybe I'm being too hopeful and/or generous towards Papa Razzi.

338 Jonathan Constantine  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:58:17am

re: #335 wahabicorridor

Ok, I will take your word at the reasonable response.

At the same time, people are using this unfortunate dilemma to bag on traditional Catholics who prefer to re-adopt customs as they were originally intended. You can find some hateful and bad apples in any denomination.... even among post-VII catholics.

339 Opinionated  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:58:40am

re: #238 Pastorius

41 Opinionated,
Do you have a link for that info? I'd like to do a post on this.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

340 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:59:21am

re: #333 Hhar

I've had Catholic proselytisers cite him to me. I've been told he is an example of a "perfected jew". But what they don't say is this: he never should have hid himself. His place was in the camps with his congregation. His congregation rejected him for that moral failure. And that is an example of a "perfected Jew". I wonder if you can understand what I think of that term.

I understand. I don't mean to be self-referential, but if you read the link I posted at #193, the article talks about how part of the Vatican's dilemma was Jews as a 'race' - which, if accepted as a working premise, pre-cluded the Church from protecting Jews who converted. (I didn't post thaat part of the article).

And there's the whole 'replacement theology' business - which most of us here seem to recognize as an insult from Islam, but are clueless when it comes to Christianity and the Jews.

I get it - as much as I can, not having been raised in the Jewish faith.

341 theheat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:01:47pm

Well, it's nice to see all the progress being led by God's Rottweiler, or whatever his moniker is. Of course, I understand the Catholic church isn't a one-man show, but I'm sure Pope Benedict isn't so stupid he doesn't comprehend how this reflects on his minions.

Thankfully, I've had no use for any of the Popes, so this really doesn't put me into spiritual contortions. However, and unfortunately, it's another expression of antisemitism in a world that doesn't appear to take offense to such things. Oddly enough, not being a religious person, I do find Jew-haters and Holocaust-deniers quite offensive.

Major downdings for the Vatican on this one.

342 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:08:51pm

re: #338 Jonathan Constantine

Ok, I will take your word at the reasonable response.

At the same time, people are using this unfortunate dilemma to bag on traditional Catholics who prefer to re-adopt customs as they were originally intended. You can find some hateful and bad apples in any denomination.... even among post-VII catholics.

I know. It sucks. Listen, the eugenics crap touched my family back in the 1940s. In Pennsylvania it was illegal for epileptics to marry. My father - unknowingly - married an epileptic. For reasons unrelated to her illness, he left her, but the state allowed him to annul instead of divorce.

So over time, I learned the history of the 'movement'. Imagine the irony - I became epileptic after an auto accident.

As for Klinghoffer's attack on 'science' - just wait. After the 'man-made global warming' bullshit is finally debunked, science will have NO credibility - and I'm not sure it deserves any.

343 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:08:58pm

re: #333 Hhar

This is a divide that cannot be healed by anything now here on earth. We all have to live with it, and take individuals as they come to us. History offers no comfort. Just my opinion.

True, history is complicated but resentment is not. Personally, I believe 'divides' can be healed here on earth, with God's help, and by taking responsibility for one's own thoughts and deeds. I can certainly understand that you'd find the term 'perfected Jew' reprehensibly ignorant, but I don't see the value of hanging on to bitterness. The person/people who may have said such a thing to you may have changed their minds (or not) .. but you hang onto it .. which I think creates misery.

344 justabill  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:09:38pm

re: #23 dentate

I don't get it. Isn't papal infallibility a tenet of traditional Catholic faith? So if they believe the pope can never be wrong, how could they reject Vatican II? It leads to a logical paradox.

My understanding of current Catholic doctrine is that the Pope is only infallible when speaking Ex_cathedra. It is also my understanding that this has only happened twice in recent history. Both times to resolve issues relating to Mary...

345 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:10:39pm

re: #336 buzzsawmonkey

The fundamental irony of the Gospels--and I mean no disrespect to the Christians here by pointing this out--is that the Gospels quote Jesus as attacking the "scribes and Pharisees", and in point of fact Jesus was might have been a Pharisee himself.

I think this is more accurate. It's true that Jesus's views were closer to those of Pharisaic Judaism than many Christians appreciate, which raises the possibility that he was at the very least "raised a Pharisee." However, I think the scholarly consensus is that he was more likely an Essene. (His emphasis on the survival of the individual soul is totally at odds with Sadducean thought, so that can be ruled out.)

346 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:10:53pm

re: #340 wahabicorridor

I read that, and I thought it was very fair. The Chuch has gotten some flak that it does not deserve, in my opinion. On the other hand, I have a hard time singing kumbaya........

Thanks for posting it.

347 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:11:35pm

re: #336 buzzsawmonkey

The "woman taken in adultery" story should be viewed as an attack on the Ordeal of Jealousy, which provides for an ordeal by "bitter waters" under the auspices of the Temple priests if a man doubted his wife's faithfulness. Read literally, what one sees is a paternity test by ordeal under priestly auspices. Clearly, this was falling into disfavor by Jesus' time, and with the destruction of the Temple it was abrogated entirely by the rabbis in Tractate Sotah. But the story in the New Testament, by allusion, is arguing for the abolition of this practice.

I take issue with that interpretation. The woman was brought before Jesus by a crowd of people asking should she be stoned as per the Mosaic law (which is now the Muslim law) against adultery. In a radical reinterpretation of crime and punishment, he replied that whoever among them was without sin should cast the first stone. He then bent down and wrote with his finger in the dust, symbolizing the written law. We know how the story ends.

To conflate the question "to stone or not to stone" and the answer "go ahead if you're pure yourself" with the ritual for trying a husband's doubts is far-fetched indeed. After all, the woman was "taken in adultery", i.e. caught in the act. There was no doubt. And Jesus' answer is all the more radical for that.

348 LeePro  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:12:37pm

re: #314 Pastorius

Please learn this:
To the right of the date and time of each comment there are two very clever buttons,
→ "reply" and → "quote."

Please use them so that we can refer back to whom you are speaking/replying.

349 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:12:37pm

The credibility of science may never recover

So here are some fundamental violations of scientific integrity that any thoughtful person should recognize. I’m not going to touch on climatology — the case against the warming hypothesis has already been made very well by experts. I just want to talk scientific common sense.

350 Yidwithlid  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:13:37pm

re: #327 J.S.

I think Mr Pissed off and I have differing opinions

351 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:21:59pm

re: #198 onepistoffyid

I sense there is not a lot of outrage in the US Catholic Community over the Williamson affair.

If this is true, it's possibly because of confusion over what Williamson (and, apparently, SSPX as a whole) actually stand for. There are many Catholics who felt alienated from the Church after Vatican II because they saw it as "Protestantizing the Church," or something like that. Such Catholics may wish to see some of the changes from Vatican II reversed, but that doesn't mean they want all of the liberalizing undone, or that they endorse the deicide slander against the Jews, and other medievalist notions.

352 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:24:37pm
353 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:27:04pm

re: #343 Daisy

This is a divide that cannot be healed by anything now here on earth. We all have to live with it, and take individuals as they come to us. History offers no comfort. Just my opinion.

True, history is complicated but resentment is not. Personally, I believe 'divides' can be healed here on earth, with God's help, and by taking responsibility for one's own thoughts and deeds. I can certainly understand that you'd find the term 'perfected Jew' reprehensibly ignorant, but I don't see the value of hanging on to bitterness. The person/people who may have said such a thing to you may have changed their minds (or not) .. but you hang onto it .. which I think creates misery.

hanging on to bitterness"? Well, OK.

I don't hold it agaist the person who used it: its a common Christian term, and no harm was meant. He was trying to convert me, and at the time, he thought he was trying to do a good thing, for me. Why would I be bitter towards any individual for that?

Moreover, I think the Church's recent stance on proselytising Jews is quite remarkable and laudable. But if you are going to cite history, take the good with the bad, and when someone points out just how bad things can look, and what that implies, well, saying "Oh you are bitter" makes me think you aren't going to learn from history.

You may think all things can be healed, but as one of the parties in the hoped for healie-ness, I can tell you it ain't gonna happen, and not simply because of any resentments. There is a deep gulf between ouir religions: they have evolved by contrasting themselves against each other. This is compounded and re-enforced by the facts of history.

You go ahead and heal things, fine with me, and good luck to you. But if you don't understand what you are trying to heal, well, chances are you will put your foot in it.

354 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Wow. Would you recommend a reading list for me?

355 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:37:10pm

h/t Catawba just posted in the spinoffs

Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented today on the controversy over the pope’s decision to reach out to the St. Pius X Society:

“Whenever the media distort a story, either willfully or out of ignorance, it generates skewed commentary. The latest example is what happened following the announcement that Pope Benedict XVI was seeking reconciliation with the St. Pius X Society. News reports quickly surfaced that the pope had welcomed back a Holocaust-denying bishop. Nonsense.

“Here are the facts. The pope didn’t reach out to any one member of this group—he lifted the excommunication that had been imposed in 1988 on the collectivity. Those bishops, including the one who entertains loopy and wholly discredited views on the Holocaust, are not fully reinstated in the Catholic Church, and may never be. What the pope did was the first step toward full communion. As the New York Times correctly said on January 28, this was ‘a step toward the men’s full restoration to the church, but their status has yet to be determined.’ (My emphasis.)

“So what will it take for these bishops to get reinstated? The pope said it best: ‘I hope my gesture is followed by the hoped-for commitment on their part to take the further steps necessary to realize full communion with the Church, thus witnessing true fidelity, and true recognition of the magisterium and the authority of the pope and of the Second Vatican Council.’ There is no way to read that other than to conclude that to be fully reinstated in the Catholic Church, all those who have passed the first test must now clear the big hurdle: either accept what the Catholic Church teaches or remain on the sidelines. And what the Church teaches, among other things, is the necessity of respecting our Jewish brethren.
“None of the media distortions of this issue excuses those in the Jewish community who have lashed out at the pope. They should know better. Is their commitment to good relations with Catholics so thin that it can wither because of something like this? We certainly hope not.”

356 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:37:47pm
357 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:40:54pm

re: #356 buzzsawmonkey

Torah I've read - and I'm learning Hebrew - I have SOME commentary - but no background that would allow me to separate wheat from chaff - nic is blue - take your time. Please.

And thank you, too.

358 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:42:47pm

gotta hop - dinner prep

359 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:42:56pm

re: #353 Hhar

"Perfected Jew" is a common Christian term? First time I've come across it.

You asked: "I wonder if you can understand what I think of that term (perfected Jew)?" and immediately followed your question by this statement:
"This is a divide that cannot be healed by anything now here on earth." And then you profess wonder at my citing that as an example of resentment and bitterness? Wow.

Can't be healed? You seem to accept that proposition as pragmatic, and imply that I suffer some sort of naivete for believing healing can take place. I'm a Christian married to a Jew, and I beg to differ. I've learned this from history: I don't take things too literally and I choose to live (as much as possible) without resentment. I understand 'healing' as a process, not an event. It's called living in peace and there is nothing uninformed about that decision.

360 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:47:57pm
361 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:48:58pm

re: #360 ploome hineni

...this is because the priest recieved forgiveness without repentance and restitution, without tshuva

How do you know?

362 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:59:44pm

re: #359 Daisy

"Perfected Jew" is a common Christian term? First time I've come across it.

I would guess that that's because you haven't spent a lot of time with people who try to proselytise Jews. If you had, you would have found that it isn't at all uncommmon. I think Coulter used it once, resulting in the usual pointless media foofaraw.


You asked: "I wonder if you can understand what I think of that term (perfected Jew)?" and immediately followed your question by this statement:
"This is a divide that cannot be healed by anything now here on earth." And then you profess wonder at my citing that as an example of resentment and bitterness? Wow.

Yeah. You really have no idea what I think or feel. Your mistake is understandable, but it is a mistake. You really do not understand where I am coming from.


Can't be healed? You seem to accept that proposition as pragmatic, and imply that I suffer some sort of naivete for believing healing can take place. I'm a Christian married to a Jew, and I beg to differ. I've learned this from history: I don't take things too literally and I choose to live (as much as possible) without resentment. I understand 'healing' as a process, not an event. It's called living in peace and there is nothing uninformed about that decision.

You aren't married to an observant Jew if you are a Christian, I'll tell you that. So no, your notion that this is a wonderful example of healing demonstrates precisely why this divide cannot be healed. Your naivete lies in not at all grasping what your marriage implies to me. In fact, to me it demonstrates precisely the consequences of what people think is "healing". Daisy, you really don't get it at all. Nothing personal.

363 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:00:35pm
364 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:02:46pm
365 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:12:20pm
366 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:15:31pm

re: #362 Hhar

It's okay, despite your narrow (to put it politely) view of my marriage and your hostile comment about the quality of my husband's religious observance ( I know, I know, it's Jewish doctrine, nevertheless, hostile), I'll keep on understanding and practicing the value of tolerance and forgiveness. You insist on naming the differences between Judaism and Christianity as a 'divide' and you can certainly keep on doing so - however, my original comment had much more to do with the personal divide in one's soul created when one chooses resentment over forgiveness. I advocate for forgiveness. And, by all means, you go right ahead and keep your resentment. I believe yours is the more naive position.

367 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:16:28pm
368 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:16:51pm

re: #363 ploome hineni

because he did not disavow the positions that resulted in his excommunicaion?

you mean the 12 Hail Mary's consitiute repentence and restitution?

/what

EVER

I did say that I would not argue w/bigots and I intend to honor my own words.

369 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:17:46pm
370 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:19:12pm
371 Hhar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:19:20pm

re: #366 Daisy

It's okay, despite your narrow (to put it politely) view of my marriage and your hostile comment about the quality of my husband's religious observance ( I know, I know, it's Jewish doctrine, nevertheless, hostile), I'll keep on understanding and practicing the value of tolerance and forgiveness. You insist on naming the differences between Judaism and Christianity as a 'divide' and you can certainly keep on doing so - however, my original comment had much more to do with the personal divide in one's soul created when one chooses resentment over forgiveness. I advocate for forgiveness. And, by all means, you go right ahead and keep your resentment. I believe yours is the more naive position.

LOL! Its good you aren't judgemental.

Well, you have a good weekend. Bye now.

372 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:19:49pm

re: #359 Daisy

"Perfected Jew" is a common Christian term? First time I've come across it.

Really? Gee. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if you google 'replacement theology'?

373 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:19:57pm

re: #369 ploome hineni

his comment about th degree of your husbands religious observance was not hostile

Was it inaccurate?

I think it's best to allow Hhar to speak for himself.

374 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:22:30pm
375 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:22:30pm

re: #371 Hhar

You too. Bye.

376 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:24:14pm

re: #372 wahabicorridor

Really? Gee. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if you google 'replacement theology'?

I will look it up. Up to this moment I've not heard of this "common" Christian term.

377 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:24:42pm

Here is a website with quite a lot of first-hand statements about this Bishop Williamson business.

378 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:27:51pm

Daisy

I've never heard "perfected Jew" either, but the idea comes from Matthew 5:27, in which Christ (if you'll permit me) says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

379 wahabicorridor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:30:17pm

re: #376 Daisy

I will look it up. Up to this moment I've not heard of this "common" Christian term.

It really is - or was - common. I first heard it and had it explained when I was 10 (Presb. and then Lutheran). I'm 57 now. Please don't give up on Hhar and ploome. They really are wonderful people. And so are you.

Maybe it's a generational issue? I don't know how old you are - perhaps that might have something to do with it? The churches are teaching things with a different empahsis?

380 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:34:03pm

re: #378 godfrey

I certainly have no problem w/your referring to Christ as Christ! And thanks for the information, it's helpful.

381 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:39:31pm

re: #379 wahabicorridor

It really is - or was - common. I first heard it and had it explained when I was 10 (Presb. and then Lutheran). I'm 57 now. Please don't give up on Hhar and ploome. They really are wonderful people. And so are you.

Maybe it's a generational issue? I don't know how old you are - perhaps that might have something to do with it? The churches are teaching things with a different empahsis?

No, it's not generational, I think it could be denominational. Oh, I've not given up on either of Hhar or Ploome. It's the first time I've encountered Hhar and what he had to say was actually interesting to me - although we did seem to be speaking at cross purposes, which is never fulfilling. And I often ding ploome's astute comments up even though I think her style is pretty crude, not to mention vulgar. Oh yes, and she is a religious bigot.

382 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:01:16pm
383 J.S.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:01:57pm

re: #350 Yidwithlid

I think Mr Pissed off and I have differing opinions

No! I refuse to believe that -- everyone, everyone on this board has expressed precisely the same opinions! and identical ones at that!

Anyway, must be off now...

384 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:10:24pm

re: #382 ploome hineni

I am never vugar

I am direct..to someone like you

living in your own bubble, where Jews are supposed to be quiet while your church has demonized and humiliated us, for millenia

and accused and executed us for deicide, for mellenia

and which abandonment haunts us to this day,

for people like you in such denial

I say

fuck you...we aren;t taking your shit anymore

religious bigot my ass

Jews have not been slaughtering CHristian for 2000 years

suddenly, since I (and others) are talking back, I am a bigot?

No. That's not why you're a bigot. You are a bigot because you chose to have contempt w/out prior investigation. And you are crude, not direct. Your vulgarity actually puts you out of the running in terms of honest directness; you blunt and cut off at the pass, so to speak, any potential honesty with your chronic anger and your vulgar expressions of your opinions. That is neither courageous nor direct, in my book. It's vulgar and rude. Having said that, I often agree w/your thoughts/opinions, however, I do not have respect for the way in which you chose to express yourself. In fact, I find it reprehensible.

385 LeePro  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:14:34pm

re: #382 ploome hineni

re: #381 Daisy
No, it's not generational, I think it could be denominational. Oh, I've not given up on either of Hhar or Ploome. It's the first time I've encountered Hhar and what he had to say was actually interesting to me - although we did seem to be speaking at cross purposes, which is never fulfilling. And I often ding ploome's astute comments up even though I think her style is pretty crude, not to mention vulgar. Oh yes, and she is a religious bigot.

I am never vugar

[...snip...]
fuck you...we aren;t taking your shit anymore
religious bigot my ass
...

Ploome is never vulgar. Never!

And on the portion snipped...

"...Jews are supposed to be quiet while your church has demonized and humiliated us, for millenia
and accused and executed us for deicide, for mellenia
and which abandonment haunts us to this day..."

What the hell are you talking about?!?!?!

386 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:27:08pm

"What the hell are you talking about?!?!?!"

Who knows? But I guess if she screams loudly enough, she feels validated, somehow, someway.

As for me, I'm off to greener pastures :) Ta ta/

387 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:53:51pm

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Wrong.

First, what you have is a mob. Before someone was subjected to one of the death penalties mandated in the Torah, one had to be brought before a court--a Beit Din. This was not an application of "Mosaic law"--it was an instance of a lynching.

Second, Jesus' act of scratching in the dirt is a direct link to the "Ordeal of Jealousy," in which the priest writes a curse upon a piece of parchment, washes the words into the "bitter waters", and adds some of the dirt from the floor of the Temple to the waters which the woman has to drink.

The Ordeal could be invoked by a husband if he suspected his wife had "gone astray"; read carefully, what the text suggests is that the husband suspects he is not the father of the wife's child. The text suggests, further, that the "bitter waters"--administered, in effect, after a priestly counseling session--contained either a placebo or an abortifacient, depending on the results of the counseling, or that it contained an abortifacient which either took effect or did not. If it took effect, that was divine proof that the jealousy was justified, and the child not his; if it did not, then that was divine proof that the husband's jealousy was not justified.

Note that the effects of the "bitter waters" were that the woman's "belly would swell, and her thigh fall away." "Thigh" is used elsewhere in the Torah as a euphemism for both the genitals and for a fetus. If the waters have no effect, the woman would "retain seed."

In the Jesus story, the woman was caught in the act, rather than merely being suspected--but even that would not justify mob action over court adjudication of her fate. It is, in effect, an "upping of the ante" from mere suspicion (the Ordeal) to actually being caught en flagrante, but--with Jesus (a non-priest) alluding to the Ordeal by scratching in the (non-Temple) dirt, it is clearly intended to say that "even this more obvious transgression should be forgiven; how much more should the Ordeal, which is administered on suspicion, be abandoned?"

I think you've clearly studied this far more deeply than I have, and I bow to your superior knowledge.

388 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:17:17pm

re: #378 godfrey

Daisy

I've never heard "perfected Jew" either, but the idea comes from Matthew 5:27, in which Christ (if you'll permit me) says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

Bingo. This is the thing that was really repugnant about Coulter's use of the term -- since "perfected" can have the meaning of "completed" or "fulfilled," she was technically correct to say that Christianity (according to its own adherents) is the "perfection" (i.e., the final draft) of Judaism, and that Christians are in this same sense "perfected" Jews.

But Coulter said this knowing full well that her Jewish interviewer would take "perfected" in its more colloquial sense of "made flawless" -- implying the antonym "flawed, messed up, undesirable" rather than "not yet complete." Thus, while claiming to be a Christian, she presented a mainstream Christian doctrine in such a way as to deliberately antagonize Jews -- which was not very "Christian" of her.

As to the whole "replacement theology" thing -- it's a central (and indeed, defining) doctrine of mainstream Christianity that the eventual coming of Jesus was planned by God before the Torah was revealed to Moses, before God revealed His monotheistic nature to Abraham (though neglecting to mention the Trinity thing), and in fact before Adam. Thus, Christianity does not see itself as "Judaism 2.0," but rather sees Judaism as a pre-release beta version of Christianity. (Of course, a Mormon would would say that Judaism was the alpha version, Nicene Christianity was the beta release, and Mormonism is the "perfected" version.)

But I would say that the term "replacement theology" is more applicable to Islam's claims about itself, since Islam entirely rejects the Torah (not to mention the Christian New Testament) as inspired revelation.

389 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:29:45pm

re: #386 Daisy

Who knows? But I guess if she screams loudly enough, she feels validated, somehow, someway.

Seen at icon-size, ploome's avatar always looks to me like an image of Jesus hanging on the cross -- which somewhat fits her personality, if you get what I'm saying.

390 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:35:33pm

re: #379 wahabicorridor

It really is - or was - common. I first heard it and had it explained when I was 10 (Presb. and then Lutheran). I'm 57 now.

Hey, Beagle-Lady -- I seem to recall that you were early on in your studies of Judaism the last time I saw you in person. How's that progressed?

391 Wild Knight  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:45:13pm

I've got to say this about this matter. I am a cradle-Catholic (in my mid-thirties). I live in an almost homogenously Catholic country just a few hundred miles from Rome. My country is almost as conservatively Catholic as you can be without actually being SSPX. I was brought about by parents who had been brought up in Pre-Conciliar days. All I can say is that I never came across or heard an Anti-Semitic comment inspired by my Church and her faith. Indeed, my mother, who was the main person to teach me my faith always emphasised the love and respect Catholics owe to Jews - and this from a person who was brought up by Pre-Conciliar Priests and nuns. The anti-semitic comments I come across in my country are associated with or produced with the events in the Middle East - much like in any other Western country. Yes, we have some priests and Catholics who criticise Israel about the alleged treatment of the Palestinians and the like but that is because they are ignorant. In my country, I know no priest or Catholic who denies the Holocaust. The only holocaust deniers in my country are atheist wannabe facist types. Please note that I am talking about authenic, millennially ancient Mediterranean Catholicism - and I ran into Anti-Semitic sentiment produced by my faith and its culture in my country. If anything, the prejudice here is strongly anti-moslem and conservatice Catholics here tend to be strongly Pro-Israeli because of this anti-Islamic prejudice. Those, ladies and Gentlemen are the facts. So before (some of) you try to all tar Catholics with the same brush, keep in mind that the vast majority are as puzzled and offended by the comments of these SSPXers as you are.

392 Wild Knight  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:48:46pm

PIMF -

quote

Please note that I am talking about authenic, millennially ancient Mediterranean Catholicism - and I ran into Anti-Semitic sentiment produced by my faith and its culture in my country.

unquote

Should be:

Please note that I am talking about authenic, millennially ancient Mediterranean Catholicism - and I never ran into Anti-Semitic sentiment produced by my faith and its culture in my country.

There are some other typos in my comment no. 391. Sorry.

393 iam7545  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:15:56pm

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

We can't know for sure, but his handle ends with "yid" which doesn't make sense, since that is a derogatory epithet for a Jew (yiddish) unless it's pronounced "yeed," and in that case, it is not derogatory since that is the way a yiddish speaker pronounces it.


Where did you get this idea from? Jews call each other Yids or Yiddelah.

394 LeePro  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:31:47pm

re: #389 Throbert McGee

Seen at icon-size, ploome's avatar always looks to me like an image of Jesus hanging on the cross -- which somewhat fits her personality, if you get what I'm saying.

Yup.
Early on she said that her avatar represents her "expertise" as a writer. As a 3rd-generation-newspaper-brat (father and grandfather both national award-winning cartoonists — one of them a Pulitzer), I once mentioned to her that her avatar shows a cartoonist's drawing pen.

She blew up, spewed vitriol all over me and summarily dismissed me!

? ? ?
Go figure...

395 Render  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:18:32pm

Somebody way up thread said that "there are no Jews that deny the Holocaust."

That statement is fundamentally wrong.

There more then a few non-practicing Jews who do, in fact, deny the Holocaust, or actively support those who deny.

A couple of quick examples: Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, and Marcus Epstein.

===

Charles: In following up on the subject of this thread I came across some links and commentary that may be relevant, but I'm unsure of how to proceed with what I've found. I'll e-mail them to you and Sharmie...

DISTRACTIONS,
R

396 rumcrook  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:46:38pm

re: #233 Teacake!

prior to Jesus, Jews were hated and civilizations tried to destroy Jews, but the reasons had nothing to do with Jesus, so what were the reasons before then? So much global fuss over such a small group of people.

its really more simple than most people realize, jews brought the one true god to the attention of the world. they brought the light of this along with the rules (the ten commandments) that give dignity to the least of us.

evil/darkness hates light. its really that simple.

397 mindy1  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:24:54pm

re: #38 karmic_inquisitor
i hope you are right, but I fear some catholics will not be so kind

398 Sloppy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:40:37pm

A small point: Congrats to Lawhawk for using "flak" correctly. The number of folks who know the difference between "flak" and "flack" is personally distressing.

399 Sloppy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:43:20pm

PIMF: My 398 above. I meant to say that the number who DON'T know the difference is distressing. Sorry.

400 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:59:23pm

re: #389 Throbert McGee

Seen at icon-size, ploome's avatar always looks to me like an image of Jesus hanging on the cross -- which somewhat fits her personality, if you get what I'm saying.

Back much later. I do. Difference is, she appears to be a martyr w/out a cause.

401 Daisy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:00pm

re: #391 Wild Knight

I'd have dinged you up, but the dinger doesn't seem to be working right now.

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:21:10pm

re: #23 dentate

I don't get it. Isn't papal infallibility a tenet of traditional Catholic faith? So if they believe the pope can never be wrong, how could they reject Vatican II? It leads to a logical paradox.

The Pope is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra. But some of these nutjobs also don't believe that B16 is rightfully Pope.

403 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:54:15pm

re: #353 Hhar

There is a deep gulf between ouir religions: they have evolved by contrasting themselves against each other. This is compounded and re-enforced by the facts of history.

Hhar, have you ever read Franz Rosenzweig's "Star of Redemption"? Just curious. He has an interesting take on the relationship between synagogue and church, one which might surprise you. And he is considered to be one of the leading lights of 20th-century Jewish philosophy, along with the great Martin Buber.

He also has some very interesting things to say about Islam and Mahomet, whom he calls "master of the great plagiarism".

404 Petra  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:16:05am

I recommend that people read the interview with Fr. Floriano Abrahamowicz and decide for themselves if his comments have been fairly represented. It is available here: [Link: ncronline3.org...]

This priest said “No, I don’t cast doubt on the numbers. There could have been more than six million victims.” How does this seem to cast doubt on the numbers?

405 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:56:09am

re: #404 Petra

I recommend that people read the interview with Fr. Floriano Abrahamowicz and decide for themselves if his comments have been fairly represented. It is available here: [Link: ncronline3.org...]

This priest said “No, I don’t cast doubt on the numbers. There could have been more than six million victims.” How does this seem to cast doubt on the numbers?

I have reported your comment to Charles. You are a liar and a malicious person.

Here's the full quote:

Do you cast doubt on the number of victims of the Holocaust?

No, I don’t cast doubt on the numbers. There could have been more than six million victims. Even in the Jewish world, the number has a symbolic value. Pope Ratzinger says that even one person killed unjustly is too many, which is a way of saying that it’s equal to six million. To speak about numbers doesn’t change anything with respect to the essence of genocide, which is always an exaggeration.

Equivocation at its best. "Numbers don't matter." Classic Holocaust-denial tactic.

Here's another quote from that interview:

Why do so many people still cast doubt on the Shoah? Why is it a subject that still divides people so viscerally?

Because the whole history of humanity is marked by the people of Israel, who initially were the people of God, who then became the people of deicide, and who at the end of time will reconvert to Jesus Christ.

I've never said this to anyone here before, but you do not belong on LGF.

406 Petra  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 11:44:40am

"Equivocation at its best. "Numbers don't matter." Classic Holocaust-denial tactic."


Fr. Abrahamowicz is of Jewish extraction and doesn't "question the Holocaust," as this article implies, but goes so far as to say that there may have been more victims than were reported. He simply wishes to make the point that the Holocaust's evil is not connected with a particular number or even a particular means of execution, no matter how symbolic the number six million may be. Wouldn't all men and women of good will agree with this?

With regard to the other genocides mentioned, one has to admit Fr. Abrahamowicz's point. Elie Wiesel himself has made it: he says the Jewish Holocaust was so singular as to eclipse all other genocides. It is one thing to be outraged at Bishop Williamson's minimization of the Holocaust, but why would there be outrage at Fr. Abrahamowicz's point? Read my comments on the Williamson thread here where I condemn him.


"....you do not belong on LGF."

I pray for the conversion of Jews and everyone else daily. Call me names and have me censored if you wish.

407 Jamieos  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 3:44:59pm

Perhaps at the end of the day you should all read the article by a traditional Catholic in a traditional Catholic newspaper which has an online presence. It's long and perhaps somewhat complicated, but I have to say that returning schismatic Bishops to the Catholic Church has NOTHING to do with the Jews whom most Catholics love dearly. It has to do with de-Protestantizing the Church and removing some of the New Age influences that came in with Vatican 2. I oversimplify but then I am a new convert who happens to be a descendant of a Jew, a Catholic and numerous Scottish Presbyterians and English Methodists. The Jews presume much; they cannot run the Church, nor can the atheists, not the Pro-Choice people, or any other special interest group. Catholics run the Catholic Church; and believe me there are a lot of Catholics in opposition over many aspects of the church. Pretty fascinating stuff, but at the end of the day, the church has to stand against the Islamization of the West, and Benedict knows it. Do not demonize him please!
Here is the link:
[Link: www.remnantnewspaper.com...]
I suggest that anyone reading these posts at this late hour go to the website and READ!

408 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:19:23pm

re: #406 Petra

I pray for the conversion of Jews and everyone else daily.

Exactly. But the Jews don't need conversion. The covenant of Abraham and Moses still stands.

And you didn't answer my point about the "people of deicide". If you believe that, you are not a Catholic as I understand the term.

You are vile.

409 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:32:24pm

re: #407 Jamieos

Pretty fascinating stuff, but at the end of the day, the church has to stand against the Islamization of the West, and Benedict knows it. Do not demonize him please!

No one is "demonizing" Pope Benedict. He's being subjected to well-deserved criticism, for what is obviously an ill-considered decision.

410 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:34:21pm

re: #404 Petra

I recommend that people read the interview with Fr. Floriano Abrahamowicz and decide for themselves if his comments have been fairly represented. It is available here: [Link: ncronline3.org...]

This priest said “No, I don’t cast doubt on the numbers. There could have been more than six million victims.” How does this seem to cast doubt on the numbers?

You're making excuses for a person who said this:

“I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect, I can’t say if anybody was killed in them or not."

This is pure and simple Holocaust denial, and it's disgusting that you're trying to rationalize it away.

411 Petra  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 4:11:11pm

He gave an opinion, one I don't agree with, he has a right to it. He didn't deny the Holocaust as your headline here stated. You got it right with Williamson but not this priest. The Pope has been working on the SSPX for a long time and it's not the first time Williamson put a spoke in the wheel. This time he did a doozy. These bsps are no longer excommunicated which means they can receive Holy Communion but they're still suspended. They have a very long road ahead. The Church has a lot of enemies within and without - some of them have no problem Rehabilitating the President of Iran and other scumbags but when it comes to the Pope and the SSPX it appears to be another story.

I support the Pope for trying to bring them into communion with the Church and pray he succeeds.

412 Petra  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 4:15:02pm

408 Cato the Elder - And you didn't answer my point about the "people of deicide". If you believe that, you are not a Catholic as I understand the term.

You are vile."


When you learn to keep a civil tongue in your head I'll respond.

413 Petra  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 4:17:07pm

re: #407 Jamieos

I'm bookmarking your link. It looks very interesting. Thanks.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
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