Merkel Calls on Pope to ‘Clarify’ Holocaust Stance

Religion • Views: 1,968

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is calling on Pope Benedict to clarify his Holocaust stance, as the controversy over Bishop Richard Williamson’s Holocaust denial refuses to go away.

Her demand came amid increasing outrage among Germany’s Roman Catholic leaders over the pope’s decision to lift the excommunication of British-born Richard Williamson, who questioned whether 6 million Jews were gassed during the Nazi Holocaust. …

Benedict last week expressed “full and indisputable solidarity” with Jews and warned against any denial of the horror of the Holocaust, but several leading German bishops have decried the German-born pope’s decision and called Williamson’s rehabilitation to be revoked.

“I do not believe that sufficient clarification has been made,” Merkel said.

Earlier Tuesday, Cardinal Karl Lehmann, the bishop of Mainz, went a step farther in an interview with broadcaster Suedwestfunk, calling for an apology from “a high level.”

“There must also be consequences for those who are responsible for this,” Lehmann said of the decision to rehabilitate Williamson.

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239 comments
1 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:15:37am

Tells you how much the world has changed - A German leader demanding moral accountability over the Shoah. Good for her.

2 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:16:17am

Glad to hear this.

3 pegcity  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:16:41am

I like her Moxy

4 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:16:52am

Is the Discovery Institute going to tell the Germans they have no right to question the history of their own country?

5 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:17:09am

And I really wanted to like Benedict; I thought a man of his calibre could handle the papacy. An intellectual, a debater, a man firm in his faith and moral vision. And he just whiffs it.

6 Picayune  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:17:11am

Secular intervention!

7 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:17:59am

re: #6 Picayune

Secular intervention!

What, you wanna start up the Guelfs and Ghibbbelines stuff again?

8 smokefire  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:06am

………………Good for you Angie.
Make the Pope squirm. Better yet, he is a German too.

9 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:08am

the Pope’s mentally retarded teenage cousin was murdered by the nazi’s

10 Opinionated  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:13am

It’s not about the Holocaust, that is - or should be- a side issue. It is about the Society that continues to blame and curse [even present day] Jews for the crucification.

11 pegcity  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:14am

re: #5 Guanxi88

And I really wanted to like Benedict; I thought a man of his calibre could handle the papacy. An intellectual, a debater, a man firm in his faith and moral vision. And he just whiffs it.

meh he was a Nazi

12 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:18am

Smells like German internal politics are at work here.
I simply don’t know. I don’t follow them
Something isn’t rational about all this righteous indignation.

13 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:36am

Thank you for continuing to provide us with information, Charles.

14 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:18:38am

Just one question - where was Merkel, where were those German bishops, where, in fact were all those who are jumping up and down about the Pope now, when the streets in their towns, cities and capitals showed the most outrageous antisemitic demonstrations in the last few weeks?

One finger pointing at the Pope - four fingers pointing back at you, you hypocrites!

And I’m not even asking about your stance towards Israel …

15 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:19:05am
16 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:19:16am

Even Ojoe, a bad Catholic, wants to see Williamson excommunicated.

In these times, with the clouds on the horizon, no group dedicated to the good, and to the truth, can afford to have such a member.

17 FrogMarch  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:19:29am

I’m not Catholic and am not familiar with how all of this works. Can the pope change his mind?

18 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:19:48am
19 thefallingman  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:19:50am

It’s nice to see that some people believe you can’t just toss history under the table. Wonder if a Japanese PM would ever say this about their WWII actions. Wonder how Acccccchhhhhhhmadinejad is going to respond.

20 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:20:27am
21 Picayune  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:20:28am

re: #6 Picayune

Nope, just a hap tip to Merkel.

22 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:20:36am

re: #17 FrogMarch

Yes he can change his mind.

23 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:20:39am

re: #11 pegcity

meh he was a Nazi

Look, so far as I know, he didn’t voluntarily join the party as an adult or even a young man. As I recall, he was dragged into one of their youth groups or something. As one whose family had one branch hunted by the Reich while another fought the Reich under Old Glory, I don’t hold this against him

24 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:20:48am

re: #12 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.

25 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:21am

And where is the outrage of Merkel and all these people about the sayings of that unspeakable ‘scholar’, whose video Charles put up a few threads below?

These are the same people who keep shtum about Ahmadinejad’s unspeakable holocaust lies …

26 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:25am

re: #9 phoenixgirl

the Pope’s mentally retarded teenage cousin was murdered by the nazi’s

Say what?

27 smokefire  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:32am

re: #10 Opinionated

It’s not about the Holocaust, that is - or should be- a side issue. It is about the Society that continues to blame and curse [even present day] Jews for the crucification.

……….I don’t think so. It is about the Holocaust. It is a main issue. Anyone that continues to deny this occurrence, regardless of his religious persuasion tacitly accepts the concept of genocide

28 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:37am

Excommunicating is not the same thing as firing a party hack. It’s practically condemning a soul to hell.

29 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:41am

Theologian Calls For Benedict to Step Down -

Rome - Attacks on Pope Benedict XVI’s decision to lift the excommunication of a Holocaust denier escalated on Monday, with one theologian calling on him to step down as the head of the Roman Catholic Church.

Criticism following the pope’s January 24 announcement has been particularly cutting in Germany, where denying the Holocaust is a crime punishable with a jail sentence.

“If the pope wants to do some good for the Church, he should leave his job,” eminent liberal Catholic theologian Hermann Haering told the German daily Tageszeitung.

“That would not be a scandal, a bishop has to relinquish his position at 75 years, a cardinal loses his rights at 80 years,” he said. Pope Benedict is 81.

Meanwhile, a senior Vatican official acknowledged the Vatican administration may have made “management errors” with the decision to lift excommunication against four bishops, including Richard Williamson, whose comments sparked the controversy.

30 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:45am

re: #14 yma o hyd

Just one question - where was Merkel, where were those German bishops, where, in fact were all those who are jumping up and down about the Pope now, when the streets in their towns, cities and capitals showed the most outrageous antisemitic demonstrations in the last few weeks?

One finger pointing at the Pope - four fingers pointing back at you, you hypocrites!

And I’m not even asking about your stance towards Israel …

Thank You, yma o hyd!

31 thefallingman  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:51am

re: #10 Opinionated

It’s not about the Holocaust, that is - or should be- a side issue. It is about the Society that continues to blame and curse [even present day] Jews for the crucification.


Which, of course, shows up the ignorance of those who do that. If you believe the Bible, then Jesus came to earth so he could be crucified. Which would mean that Jews are owed a debt of gratitude.

32 CapeCoddah  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:21:53am

I was just reading this on Drudge. Merkel seems to be the only European leader with at least half a brain.

33 newsjunkie_ky  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:00am

Which Pope excommunicated him?

34 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:17am

re: #23 Guanxi88

It’s the same mentality that is used to tar all europeans as complicit nazi sympathizers.

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:24am

re: #24 Sharmuta

Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.

Yes, I know.

36 SalsaNChips  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:25am

“Clarify?” He either believes the overwhelming documentation of the holocaust or he doesn’t. He apparently doesn’t. Which makes him a loony fringe element. End of discussion.

37 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:34am

re: #23 Guanxi88

Look, so far as I know, he didn’t voluntarily join the party as an adult or even a young man. As I recall, he was dragged into one of their youth groups or something. As one whose family had one branch hunted by the Reich while another fought the Reich under Old Glory, I don’t hold this against him

Didn’t he mutiny in a Low Country?

38 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:54am

re: #28 Peacekeeper

Excommunicating is not the same thing as firing a party hack. It’s practically condemning a soul to hell.

Why not just defrock him?

39 CapeCoddah  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:22:59am

re: #33 newsjunkie_ky

Which Pope excommunicated him?

JPII

40 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:23:28am

re: #33 newsjunkie_ky

JP2 I believe

41 smokefire  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:23:30am

re: #32 CapeCoddah

I was just reading this on Drudge. Merkel seems to be the only European leader with at least half a brain.

…………and more balls

42 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:07am

re: #27 smokefire

……….I don’t think so. It is about the Holocaust. It is a main issue. Anyone that continues to deny this occurrence, regardless of his religious persuasion tacitly accepts the concept of genocide

Doesn’t the Society of Pius X (or, somesuch name) holds that again Jews should be called the killers of Christ.

43 CapeCoddah  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:19am

re: #41 smokefire

…………and more balls

Sometimes, But Yma had a great point in her #14

44 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:28am

re: #10 Opinionated

It’s not about the Holocaust, that is - or should be- a side issue. It is about the Society that continues to blame and curse [even present day] Jews for the crucification.

A society that the Pope wants to quash. Absorbing them back into the Church is a way to bring them into alignment with Vatican II doctrine. Allowing the schism to stand is just asking for trouble, since it may persist and grow into yet another offshoot sect.

45 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:40am
46 ziggyelman  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:45am

OT Drudge seems to be down right now, anyone else having this problem?

47 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:49am

re: #41 smokefire

Merkel

48 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:24:57am

re: #24 Sharmuta

Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.

Utter denial or a questioning-of-the-numbers denial?

49 SurferDoc  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:25:27am

re: #46 ziggyelman

OT Drudge seems to be down right now, anyone else having this problem?

It just loaded OK for me.

50 CapeCoddah  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:25:33am

re: #48 MandyManners

Utter denial or a questioning-of-the-numbers denial?

Utter denial, any type.

51 FrogMarch  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:25:37am

re: #22 Ojoe

Yes he can change his mind.

Then he better do it.

52 quickjustice  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:25:57am

The Polish Pope is reported, as a young priest, to have showed personal compassion for a Jewish girl who was a concentration camp survivor, going out of his way to help her.

In addition to being German, the current Pope has no such record. I don’t believe that he’s an anti-Semite, but he seems tone deaf on these issues of anti-Semitic, high-profile Catholics.

53 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:25:59am

re: #34 Sharmuta

It’s the same mentality that is used to tar all europeans as complicit nazi sympathizers.

My stance has always been: if they were dragged into the party as youth, no guilt attaches. If they stayed in when they were adults, then it becomes questionable. If they stayed in but were civil servants in the traditional sense of the term, then no guilt attaches. If they knowingly played any role, directly or indirectly, in the Shoah, then guilty presumptively attaches.

Same rules (my grandfather’s) apply to their soldiery. Abweher, Wehrmacht, conscripts - no guilt attaches, except in the event of their direct participation in war-crimes. SS (and I include even a stenographer or boot-maker) - guilt attaches.

It’s not hard to make these distinctions, but it is easier not to, I suppose.

54 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:26:05am

re: #51 FrogMarch

Yes he had better.

55 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:26:10am

re: #50 CapeCoddah

Utter denial, any type.

Then, he’s not welcome in Germany, is he?

56 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:26:24am

re: #46 ziggyelman

OT Drudge seems to be down right now, anyone else having this problem?

No

57 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:26:51am

re: #24 Sharmuta

Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.

Pope Benedict XVI has not denied the Holocaust - and that ‘bishop’ (not even consecrated by the RCC) is not German.

Also, as Pope he’s no longer a German citizen.

People, from top to bottom, are jumping on a rolling bandwagon - it lets them off the hook, they can look grand without having to say or do anything about Israel, right now.

I find it sick - and yes, I abhor that ‘bishop’ and all he said, but lets not forget what is really important.
the Pope isn’t.

58 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:26:55am

Italy’s Rabbis claim relations with Islam “more productive and serene” than with Christianity. [Link: chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…]

Talk about putting their eggs in the wrong basket. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m thinking of setting up a collection to send some korans to Italy’s rabbis in case anyone wants to chip in.

59 ziggyelman  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:27:05am

re: #49 SurferDoc

It just loaded OK for me.

Weird, can’t get it on
IE or mozilla, saw Daschole story, then poof!

60 Desert Dog  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:27:11am

re: #47 Ojoe

Merkel

I think Bill will go to Germany with Hillary, don’t you?

61 CapeCoddah  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:27:14am

re: #55 MandyManners

Then, he’s not welcome in Germany, is he?

I would guess not, unless he wants to be charged with a crime. Wanna pool our money for a plane ticket for him to visit?

62 smokefire  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:27:22am

re: #42 MandyManners

Doesn’t the Society of Pius X (or, somesuch name) holds that again Jews should be called the killers of Christ.

I am not sure, being the fallen Catholic that I am. But if so, then it deserves to be dismantled, or placed in the same category as the Klan, Neo-Nazi’s and other hate groups.

63 Opinionated  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:28:03am

re: #27 smokefire

……….I don’t think so. It is about the Holocaust. It is a main issue. Anyone that continues to deny this occurrence, regardless of his religious persuasion tacitly accepts the concept of genocide

The many centuries charge of Deicide made the Holocaust even possible.

64 SurferDoc  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:28:14am

re: #59 ziggyelman

Weird, can’t get it on
IE or mozilla, saw Daschole story, then poof!

Perhaps it is the dreaded “Hope/Change Effect”?

66 badger1970  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:28:22am

If pro-abortionists can still be cafeteria Catholics without being excommunicated, why can’t a morally bankrupt Holocaust denier? I can see Merkel’s viewpoint of Williamson’s reinstatement as a matter of affairs of state but strictly speaking, it’s between Williamson and the Holy Catholic Church.

Mainz has a beautiful cathedral. AP has snarky little dig about Joseph Ratzinger’s time served in the Hitler Youth.

67 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:28:25am

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

What was weird was being in Berlin a few years ago and passing by a renovation of some historic building or other. As is often the case, the construction barrier around the building had fancy pictures of the building; drawings of how it appeared in the early 19th century, photos of it from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a photo of the building after WWII—and a picture of it from around 1935, draped in Nazi flags with a rally of some sort being held in front of it.

It’s part of the history, they were acknowledging rather than hiding it—good—but it was a little unsettling to see nonetheless.

I’m sure it was disturbing. Denying their history would be worse.

It’s why I wonder if the DI is going to insert it’s nose into these German calls. Try telling the Germans they were Darwinists, DI! I’m guessing they know the truth about that.

68 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:28:45am

As we speak, Hillary is contemplating a statement to censure the Pope. Probably.

Jimmy Carter would, too, but then he’d have to defend Jews and Israel, so that’s out.

69 newsjunkie_ky  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:28:46am

Wonder what Bishop Richard Williamson has on Pope Benedict?

70 ziggyelman  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:29:04am

re: #59 ziggyelman

Weird, can’t get it on
IE or mozilla, saw Daschole story, then poof!

well, I can get it on, but I don’t see what that has to do with anything! ;)

71 smokefire  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:29:22am

re: #47 Ojoe

Merkel

Girl got cleavage.
If you got it…………flaunt it,
Bet it’s real too.

72 Desert Dog  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:29:48am

re: #58 nonic

Italy’s Rabbis claim relations with Islam “more productive and serene” than with Christianity. [Link: chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…]

Talk about putting their eggs in the wrong basket. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m thinking of setting up a collection to send some korans to Italy’s rabbis in case anyone wants to chip in.

yes, we should get one of those yellow highliters and color some of the more “descriptive” Surahs dealing with Jews for the Italian Rabbis.

73 FrogMarch  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #18 taxfreekiller

ps

Good bye and good riddance to Tom Daschel the low dog democrat tax cheat.

Daschle can slink away and continue to make millions inside the democrat lobby machine.

74 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:29:57am

re: #42 MandyManners

Doesn’t the Society of Pius X (or, somesuch name) holds that again Jews should be called the killers of Christ.

I believe that is just part of their stance. IIRC, they rejected all of the Vatican II doctrines, not just the ones pertaining to the Jews.

75 calcajun  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:30:09am

re: #36 SalsaNChips

“Clarify?” He either believes the overwhelming documentation of the holocaust or he doesn’t. He apparently doesn’t. Which makes him a loony fringe element. End of discussion.

It’s not that easy. The disquieting thing here is the seeming number of bishops that possibly embrace Holocaust denial. Two have come to light in recent weeks—and there has not been swift condemnation from the Vatican. That possibly indicates that the sentiment runs deeper than what has first appeared. Benedict might have a potentially serious political problem within his ranks.

Of course, the double standard within the church needs to be considered here; it’s OK for priests to bugger altar boys and for the bishops to cover for them, but heaven forbid they speak against the Holocaust.

76 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:30:17am

re: #10 Opinionated

It’s not about the Holocaust, that is - or should be- a side issue. It is about the Society that continues to blame and curse [even present day] Jews for the crucification.

re: #44 CyanSnowHawk

A society that the Pope wants to quash. Absorbing them back into the Church is a way to bring them into alignment with Vatican II doctrine. Allowing the schism to stand is just asking for trouble, since it may persist and grow into yet another offshoot sect.

To both, … precisely.

That’s why the outrage (?) from German politicians is puzzling to me.
The Pope appears to have been DAMN specific last week.
Williamson isn’t a German (but the Pope is.)
Something else is going on here.

77 Render  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:30:17am

[Link: fringewatcher.blogspot.com…]

SOMEBODYS
WATCHING,
R

78 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:30:41am

re: #72 Desert Dog

yes, we should get one of those yellow highliters and color some of the more “descriptive” Surahs dealing with Jews for the Italian Rabbis.

You want to desecrate the holy book of the religion of peace? Do you know what they’ll do to you?

79 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:30:41am

re: #38 MandyManners

Why not just defrock him?

Not into Church Law - but that ‘bishop’ was consecrated onyl by that splinter secr, not by the RCC - so his title of ‘bishop’ is no more than a sort of self-aggrandising title.
He is not a bishop in the RCC. He has no pulpit, no dioecese, nothing.
He is only allowed to take communion, again - thats all it means. He is, if you like, a ‘commoner’.

80 Opinionated  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:30:42am

re: #44 CyanSnowHawk

A society that the Pope wants to quash. Absorbing them back into the Church is a way to bring them into alignment with Vatican II doctrine. Allowing the schism to stand is just asking for trouble, since it may persist and grow into yet another offshoot sect.

If you tell me that they have disavowed this repugnant views, you may have an argument. They have not.

Cancer and decay is supposed to be cut out, no one rational introduces it back into the host.

81 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:31:11am

re: #15 taxfreekiller

More is need on the facts of

Ausaf “Omar” Siddiqui

Where is he from?
Is he a Mormon?
What exactly did he have going down at Fry’s Electronics.

Did he put the goods of non-American products on the Fry’s shelfs more often and why?

Did he pay his taxes and who did he vote for for President?

Questions the msm will not answer.


A Mormon? Here’s a big article on him - nothing about Mormon plus he likes fast women, fast cars, and has as gambling addiction - that would be an odd Mormon.

What happened next gives an indication of just how this high-level executive, the son of a Pakistani diplomat who was crazy about fast cars and blackjack tables, bullied his way over three years into $65 million in kickbacks from vendors for space on Fry’s shelves to try to pay off his gargantuan gambling debts, according to federal authorities. It’s an allegation the 42-year-old bachelor now faces in San Jose federal court.
82 calcajun  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:31:19am

re: #58 nonic

Italy’s Rabbis claim relations with Islam “more productive and serene” than with Christianity. [Link: chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…]

Talk about putting their eggs in the wrong basket. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m thinking of setting up a collection to send some korans to Italy’s rabbis in case anyone wants to chip in.

And they thought they could deal with Hitler, too. A little bit of history repeating…

83 horse  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:31:26am

Isn’t she just the topf calling the wasserkocher schwarz? Wasn’t it her polizei tearing down the Israeli flag? Wasn’t it her government that was tolerating the antisemitic activities of their populous just recently?

All the pope did was allow an obvious sinner access to their Eucharist. It would seem the old holocaust denier could use some extra help in overcoming his ignorance.

84 CapeCoddah  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:32:01am

re: #58 nonic

Italy’s Rabbis claim relations with Islam “more productive and serene” than with Christianity. [Link: chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…]

Talk about putting their eggs in the wrong basket. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m thinking of setting up a collection to send some korans to Italy’s rabbis in case anyone wants to chip in.

Sounds like those particular Rabbi’s need a med adjustment.

85 Desert Dog  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:32:27am

re: #78 Guanxi88

You want to desecrate the holy book of the religion of peace? Do you know what they’ll do to you?

well afterwards, I will clean it up for them by dipping it in this Koran washer

86 newsjunkie_ky  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:32:54am

re: #71 smokefire

Girl got cleavage.
If you got it…………flaunt it,
Bet it’s real too.


Those are some buoys.
/seinfeld reference.

87 realwest  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:33:03am

re: #9 phoenixgirl
“the Pope’s mentally retarded teenage cousin was murdered by the nazi’s”
I updinged you for that statement, but wonder if you have a link to verify it? I know I read it somewhere before, but can’t remember where.

88 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:33:15am

Pope Benedict XVI

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939[7], but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.[8] His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith, according to biographer John L. Allen, Jr. In 1941, one of Ratzinger’s cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics.[9] In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family’s home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year.

Spare us the revisionist history of this man’s life under nazis. There’s enough bullshit in this issue without it.

89 winston06  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:33:36am

good for Merkel

90 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:33:40am

re: #45 buzzsawmonkey

What was weird was being in Berlin a few years ago and passing by a renovation of some historic building or other. As is often the case, the construction barrier around the building had fancy pictures of the building; drawings of how it appeared in the early 19th century, photos of it from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a photo of the building after WWII—and a picture of it from around 1935, draped in Nazi flags with a rally of some sort being held in front of it.

It’s part of the history, they were acknowledging rather than hiding it—good—but it was a little unsettling to see nonetheless.

I am always thrown by German references to WW2 when in Germany.

Last time I was there my wife and I drove in from France to spend a weekend near Trier. Ate at a cafe on the Mosel and started talking to the owner. He picked up on the fact we were Americans and got to talking about Southern California. For some reason he felt the need to tell me that he has a friend in Los Angeles and that she is Jewish. Then he goes on and on about this friend, flattering her as he went. It seemed very contrived - felt like he was trying to over compensate.

For the rest of the trip I couldn’t help but wonder about how any inter personal reference in Germany about WW2, the holocaust and Jews can be anything but awkward except among people you are very familiar with.

91 J.S.  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:34:26am

re: #12 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Holocaust denial is a criminal offense in Germany — in other words, if that Holocaust denying bishop went to Germany and tried to say certain things, he would be subject to arrest, etc. Germany is also attempting to have similar laws put in place across the EU…

92 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:34:30am

re: #69 newsjunkie_ky

Wonder what Bishop Richard Williamson has on Pope Benedict?

Is that you, Niccolo?

93 bellamags  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:34:52am

re: #86 newsjunkie_ky

Those are some buoys.
/seinfeld reference.

OMG. i just looked. wow those are some nice boobies.

94 newsjunkie_ky  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:35:18am

re: #92 MandyManners

Is that you, Niccolo?


?

95 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #87 realwest

It’s right a wiki.

96 realwest  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:36:03am

re: #88 Sharmuta
Upding and thanks for that one Sharm!

97 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:36:20am

re: #59 ziggyelman

Weird, can’t get it on
IE or mozilla, saw Daschole story, then poof!

It hung loading for a few seconds … then back to normal.

98 Tumulus11  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:36:20am

. The Vatican has handled this case poorly.

Pope Benedict XVI must now explicitly condemn Bishop Williamson’s statement on the Holocaust as morally wrong and sinful. Williamson must also be forbidden to speak publically on any matter until he has recanted and apologized for his offense.

99 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:36:30am

Society of Saint Pius X

this is their website if you are interested in what they believe, then read it.

100 horse  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:36:37am

As some others have noted above, this is nothing more than a left vs. right political conflict within Catholicism. Bendict is on the right, those misrepresenting the situation to attack him are on the left, and they got Merkel to spout off about it.

101 dhg4  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:36:46am

re: #1 Guanxi88

It’s interesting too, that the Bishop of Mainz is asking for more from the Pope. The Jews in Mainz and nearby towns were wiped out during the Crusades. (Many Jews killed their own families and themselves in dread of the brutality of the mobs.)

102 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:37:19am

re: #95 Sharmuta

Er- at wiki. Easy enough to look up.

This man did about as little as possible to help the nazi regime as a German youth could other than flee the country. Where was there to go anyways?

103 winston06  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:38:20am

OT

Mark Steyn siting in for Rush today!

104 realwest  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:38:45am

re: #102 Sharmuta
Yep, see my #96 - posted while headed for Wiki.

105 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:38:50am

re: #94 newsjunkie_ky

?

Believe it’s a reference to:

This Guy.

106 quickjustice  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:39:48am

I’ll say it directly: the Germans have paid their reparations for World War II atrocities. The Swiss, among others, have not. It isn’t the Pope’s ethnicity or personal history that’s the problem here. It’s the hair-splitting about excommunication. The theology of this seems muddled.

Isn’t salvation under Christian doctrine dependent upon repentance of sin? So shouldn’t an unrepentant person guilty of a serious moral offense be excommunicated? And shouldn’t someone who has repented be welcomed back into the church?

107 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:39:51am

re: #98 Tumulus11

. The Vatican has handled this case poorly.

Pope Benedict XVI must now explicitly condemn Bishop Williamson’s statement on the Holocaust as morally wrong and sinful. Williamson must also be forbidden to speak publically on any matter until he has recanted and apologized for his offense.

As of 10 minutes ago …

[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

VATICAN CITY (AFP) – Pope Benedict XVI’s condemnation of a Holocaust row bishop “could not have been clearer,” Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi said Tuesday after criticism by German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Merkel had earlier Tuesday called on the Vatican to “clarify unambiguously that there can be no denial” that the Nazis killed six million Jews.

“These clarifications have, in my opinion, not yet been sufficient,” Merkel told a news conference, referring to a statement by the German pontiff last week.

But Lombardi recalled that “the pope’s thoughts on the subject of the Holocaust were expressed with great clarity in the Cologne synagogue,” in August 2005, and “in the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp on 28 May, 2006”, and again on January 28.

The Vatican spokesman said last week Benedict expressed his “full and indisputable solidarity” with Jews when he said: “The Shoah should be a warning for all against forgetting, denial and reductionism.”

The row over the Holocaust started after the pope lifted the excommunication of Richard Williamson, a Holocaust denier who was among four breakaway traditionalist bishops whom Benedict brought back into the fold of the Roman Catholic Church on January 24.

That decision was widely condemned by Jewish leaders and organisations as well as some Catholics.

The Vatican said the pope was “troubled” by Williamson’s interview in which he dismissed as “lies” the fact that some six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, most in gas chambers at Nazi concentration camps, claiming that only between 200,000 and 300,000 Jews died before and during World War II.

On Tuesday Lombardi stressed that the pope’s condemnation last week “of statements that deny the Holocaust could not have been clearer and given the context this condemnation also concerned the positions of Monsignor Williamson and all similar positions,” Lombardi said.

108 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:40:12am

re: #87 realwest

“the Pope’s mentally retarded teenage cousin was murdered by the nazi’s”
I updinged you for that statement, but wonder if you have a link to verify it? I know I read it somewhere before, but can’t remember where.

see my #65

109 MJ  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:40:50am

A Challenge for the Church

Reading the news about the reintegration of a notorious Holocaust denier into the Catholic Church, as well as the open letter of Cardinal Christoph Schönborn to the Chief Rabbi of Austria and the Jewish community on the occasion of Holocaust Memorial Day, reminded me of my boyhood experiences at the elementary school in Baden bei Wien during the 1930s…

[Link: www.hagalil.com…]

110 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:40:58am

re: #58 nonic

Italy’s Rabbis claim relations with Islam “more productive and serene” than with Christianity. [Link: chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…]

Talk about putting their eggs in the wrong basket. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m thinking of setting up a collection to send some korans to Italy’s rabbis in case anyone wants to chip in.

Given the large, and rapidly growing, population of unassimilated koran worshipers against a very docile, and shrinking, population of lapsed catholics, is this really a surprise? It’s called appeasement.

111 JHW  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:41:18am

It appears that German bishops are becoming increasingly outspoken with their outrage over Benedict’s decision.

Hamburg’s Archbishop Werner Thissen was reported Monday as saying the fact that the pope’s attempt to heal an internal rift within the church coincided with Williamson’s unspeakable statements was “dreadful.”

German Bishop Gebhard Fuerst of Rottenburg-Stuttgart publicly distanced himself Saturday from the pope’s decision. The German headquarters of the SSPX congregation is located in a town in his diocese.

Fuerst said it had caused “alienation from the church on the part of many believers, a loss of trust in the church … and a considerable breakdown in the Judaeo-Christian dialogue.”

The bishop of the pope’s native Regensburg has declared Williamson persona non grata, and theologians in the cities of Muenster and Tuebingen have expressed their dismay. Seasoned Vatican watchers have been left wondering over what most agree is a public relations blunder by the Vatican.

And……

Swiss-born theologian Hans Kueng has called for a change in direction, away from “the constant promotion of the extreme right.” He has said the pope “is increasingly aloof from the people. He doesn’t hear a thing in his ‘kingdom.’”

The pope’s decision Saturday to name an ultraconservative Austrian priest as auxiliary bishop seems to confirm this opinion.

The designated bishop, Gerhard Wagner, has previously condemned Harry Potter books for their “Satanist” content, and suggested in 2005 that Hurricane Katrina was a punishment sent by God, as it destroyed five abortion clinic

All from Deutsche Welle

112 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:41:37am

re: #98 Tumulus11

. The Vatican has handled this case poorly.

Pope Benedict XVI must now explicitly condemn Bishop Williamson’s statement on the Holocaust as morally wrong and sinful. Williamson must also be forbidden to speak publically on any matter until he has recanted and apologized for his offense.

Since Williamson is part of a schismatic sect and in no way attached to the official Church, I doubt the Pope has ANY authority over him to forbid anything or demand anything. Lifting the excommunication (letting them receive communion in the Church again) was an act of generosity in keeping with Benedict’s stated preference for the “medicine of kindness instead of the medicine of punishment.”

113 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:41:57am

re: #101 dhg4

It’s interesting too, that the Bishop of Mainz is asking for more from the Pope. The Jews in Mainz and nearby towns were wiped out during the Crusades. (Many Jews killed their own families and themselves in dread of the brutality of the mobs.)

Yes, I’ve read some of the martyrdom stories from the period. I’ve got to say, on some fronts, at least, the news from Germany is encouraging. Downside, though, is that their foreign-born and heir children are worse than anything the Reich had in mind.

114 ziggyelman  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:42:06am

re: #103 winston06

OT

Mark Steyn siting in for Rush today!

He’s better than he was a few weeks back. I think a lot of folks think it’s going to be easier than it really is to fill up 3 hours.

Go ahead, tell me he has his own radio program!

115 jcm  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:42:16am

re: #65 phoenixgirl

As a 14-year-old in 1941 the pope was forced under law to join the Hitler Youth, but his family bitterly opposed the Nazi regime and a cousin was killed by the Nazis because he had Down syndrome.

A friend of mine his dad was impressed in ‘45 at 14 into the Germany Army. He surrendered first chance he got to American troops, who later sponsored his immigration to the US. Once here he promptly volunteered for the US Army and spent 30 years serving.

116 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:42:19am

re: #65 phoenixgirl

Thank you for posting that.

117 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:42:43am
118 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:44:25am
119 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:45:41am

Just to make this quite clear:
i abhor everything that ‘bishop’ williamson has said and is saying to squirm out from under the charge of being a holocaust denier.
I also think that this has been very badly done by the Vatican, and that some clarification about xchurch Law and why this was deemed to be necessary, now, is urgently needed.

However - I am aghast at this bandwagon, used to bash the Pope without giving hi or the Vatican the benefit of doubt.

There are holocaust deniers around who are far more dangerous, not just to some souls who may rightly feel deeply upset about this - but to the whole world.
I surely do not need to remind Lizards about Iran - but it would seem that a lot of those clamouring even for the deposition of the Pope, and Frau Merkel, find it much easier to overlook that and seem to prefer to turn their backs on it.

When Ahmadinejad or that uspeakable sheick actually call for a second Holocaust - where is the uproar?
Where is Frau Merkel’s voice?

It looks to me that all these people want to keep their conscience ‘clean’ by blaming the Pope, while turning a blind eye to the possibility of yet another holocaust.
It seems easier to love dead Jews, doesn’t it?
Do we have to wait for their crocodile tears once Iran and its vassals have removed Israel from the map, instead of doing something about it, now?

120 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:45:56am
Williamson, in an interview broadcast late last month on Swedish state TV, said that historical evidence “is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler.” - AP

No one has ever maintained that 6 million Jews died in the gas chambers. Many of the 6 million died by shooting, beating, hanging, starving and even being buried alive.
If this was all that Williamson said then I would say he is nothing but a misleading, shit-disturbing anti-Semite.

However, Williamson also has been quoted recently as saying that “only 200,000 to 300,000” Jews died, and that “I believe there were no gas chambers”. He is therefore a fucking holocaust-denying liar as well.

BTW, why did AP (*spit*) choose to use only the former quote and not the latter ones? Could it be that AP (*spit*) is itself being intentionally misleading and is providing some wiggle room for the deniers?

121 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:50:27am

re: #80 Opinionated

If you tell me that they have disavowed this repugnant views, you may have an argument. They have not.

Cancer and decay is supposed to be cut out, no one rational introduces it back into the host.

I would suspect that they have not repudiated their views. They were not excommunicated for those views, they were excommunicated for accepting ordination as bishops without consent from Rome.

Catholic belief is strong on forgiveness and redemption and there is very little that can make the Church think that someone is beyond redemption. The Pope’s actions in this fit with my perceptions of the Church that I was a part of as I grew up. It is expected that those that have been brought back into the fold will accept the teachings of the Church, and those teachings reject Antisemitism and Holocaust denial.

122 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:50:43am

re: #119 yma o hyd

Iranian evil is no cover for Vatican idiocy.

123 nikis-knight  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:51:01am

This re-communication didn’t seem to be an endorsement of anything other than unity in the church.
But that’s the problem with unity as a value, or at least a vaunted goal. Some people and ideas are worth tossing out, or at least clearly demarking as different, as irreconcilible.

Holocaust denial has zero to do with historical ignorance and lack of research, and everything to do with increasing the acceptability of anti-semitism. (In the same way 9-11 denial has to do with increasing the accceptability of anti-americanism, though also a lot of inane gullible rebellion, it seems, and rank stupidity).
These people cannot be allowed to be associated with the church; it’s like, sadly, terribly regretably, like an alcoholic or drug addict who must be extra vigilant against his vice because of past abuse.

124 jill e  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:58:01am

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God’s
When mercy seasons justice.
—William Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice

125 J.S.  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:59:22am

re: #4 Sharmuta

Is the Discovery Institute going to tell the Germans they have no right to question the history of their own country?

I don’t understand what you’re saying here. (If you’ve been following any of the debates, re: Holocaust Denial, which have been on-going for decades in Germany and elsewhere — the point the Holocaust deniers repeat, over and over, is precisely: “Don’t we have a right to question history?” the Holocaust deniers not only want to “question” history, of course, they want (and some do) re-write history (these are the “revisionists”)…anyway, the whole point is that the Holocaust deniers whine over and over about how they are being “persecuted” and not allowed to question anything…(imo the criminalization of speech also feeds into this whole “victimhood” belief that their right to Free Speech is denied, etc. I’m not a fan of hate-speech codes.)

126 jill e  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 10:59:38am

And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” —Mark 2:17

127 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:01:59am

re: #119 yma o hyd

It seems easier to love dead Jews, doesn’t it?

Nicely put … and an up-ding for your post.

I respect Merkel, but something inside me wants to take that sentence of yours and shove Merkel’s face into it.

128 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:09:31am
129 jill e  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:12:19am

Homily on January 28:

“The Holocaust remains a warning against the power of evil and all forms of oblivion and negationism, Benedict XVI said today as he expressed his “full and unquestionable solidarity” with Jews. The Pope who mentioned his visit to Auschwitz also referred to his decision to lift the excommunication on bishops consecrated by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, urging them to accept the Second Vatican Council.“Whilst I renew with affection the expression of my full and unquestionable solidarity with our (Jewish) brothers, I hope the memory of the Shoah (Holocaust) will induce humanity to reflect on the unpredictable power of hate when it conquers the heart of man,” the Holy Father said. The Holocaust, he added must be “a warning against oblivion, negation or reductionism because violence against even one human being is violence against all.”

As for relations with the followers of Archbishop Lefebvre, the Pope mentioned the parable of the Miraculous Draught of Fish to illustrate the constant quest for Church unity, saying he granted “the remission of the excommunication pronounced on four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre without pontifical mandate in 1988 […] in compliance with this service of unity.”

“I performed this act of paternal mercy because the prelates expressed to me their heart-felt suffering over the situation in which they found themselves,” the pope said.

“I hope that my gesture will be followed by a considerate commitment on their part to take the necessary steps to realise full communion with the Church, thus showing true faithfulness to and recognition of the magisterium and authority of the Pope and the Second Vatican Council.”

130 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:13:58am
131 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:16:07am
132 jill e  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:16:27am

re: #130 ploome hineni

Yes…the FAR LEFT wing of the church.

133 SagamoreGal  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:17:11am

Merkel is grandstanding. She’ll be back to burying her hand in the sand next week.

134 gander  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:19:19am

Did the president of Columbia University step down as a result of the Holocaust denying Iranian Dictator being given a forum to disseminate his….. diverse viewpoint to an American audience?

135 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:24:25am

re: #14 yma o hyd

He’s too scared to take on the Muslims. Christians are easier targets.

136 Clio  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:27:13am

This discussion brings to mind my past acquaintance with a man whose early years were very similar to those of Pope Benedict.

He was born in Germany at about the same time, but his parents were Lutheran not Catholic. He went to school under the Nazi regime, was in Hitler Youth and in the last year of the war conscripted into the Wehrmacht.

Decades ago he became an Orthodox Jew, lives in Israel, and writes works of biblical scholarship.

137 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:27:19am

re: #119 yma o hyd


It seems easier to love dead Jews, doesn’t it?

Exactly. You get it.

138 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:28:00am

re: #117 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you for sharing that- I’d never read this story from you before.

139 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:29:43am
140 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:31:01am

re: #131 ploome hineni

ploomie, no Nazi was ever excommunicated by the Church before, during or after the war. So, why would it change now.

141 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:32:54am
142 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:33:31am

re: #125 J.S.

Because in the article Charles posted the other day from the DI shill in the Jerusalem Post, the author had the audacity to say the Jews didn’t have a right to question the Church concerning a Holocaust denier. (Then he went on to blame Darwin, of course.)

My point was that using the same mentality of telling the Jew they can’t question the Pope over a Holocaust denier, would the DI tell the Germans the same thing?

It’s my opinion that if there are any two groups who have the right to speak out on Holocaust denial it’s first the Jews, and second the Germans continuing to atone for the atrocities of their forefathers.

143 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:33:48am

re: #141 ploome hineni

It’s the truth, not Catholic bashing. Just the truth-the painful truth.

144 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:34:04am
145 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:34:34am
146 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:34:36am

re: #136 Clio

Amazing. I hope he found peace.

147 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:34:48am

re: #145 ploome hineni

I know you know!

148 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:35:29am

At the time of “re-communication” the Vatican failed to make it clear that Williamson would never be recognized as a Bishop while he was a holocaust denier.
That was the Pope’s choice, but noone should be surprised if such cynicism is not allowed to pass without severe criticism.

149 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:35:36am

re: #128 ploome hineni

i’ve tried to get other information about this “theologian” nothing else is coming up for me….i do notice that what does come up is the article you provided with the label “liberal” attached to him……usually, “liberal” in the Catholic faith means things like, married priests, women priests, social justice, gay marriage and change in catechism that makes catholics fit in more with society norms…..imho it means enemy of the Church.

150 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:35:57am
151 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:36:37am
152 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:36:45am

re: #150 ploome hineni

the Pope does not deny the holocaust

153 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:37:24am
154 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:38:02am
155 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:38:15am

re: #134 gander

Do you really not understand the difference between the moonbat president of a private university and the spiritual leader of the Catholic church-in the view of the church, G-d’s representative on Earth?

156 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:46:39am

re: #129 jill e

Thank you Jill. There is way too much information to post here on what the Pope has written against anti semitism.

157 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:47:16am

re: #153 ploome hineni

Hermann Haering

158 TexasUS287  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:47:21am

Good for Merkel.

159 Clio  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:48:14am

re: #146 WriterMom

Amazing. I hope he found peace.

I believe he did, and still does.

Here is another story, one I heard from somebody else.

The place was a kibbutz close to the Golan Heights, and before 1967 so the Syrian forces will stop up there, and regularly shooting down into Israel.
One year a group of European youth, late teens and early twenties, were doing some volunteer work on the kibbutz when the Syrians opened fire and some kibbutz workers were out in an open field under the fire.
Several of them were injured. One of the European group, a German youth of about 20, several times ran back and forth under the Syrian fire to help carry in the wounded.

Later he was asked why he had done that, and he replied “Because my father was commander of an einsatzgrupen [the Nazi units that rounded up Jews].”

Another very untypical example — but the untypical should also be noted.

160 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:50:12am

re: #143 WriterMom

It’s the truth, not Catholic bashing. Just the truth-the painful truth.

Please show me the writings of the Catholic Church - not nutbag members - but the official church teachings that support anti semitism. I have somehow missed all the news of Catholics attacking the Jewish people.

161 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:50:16am

re: #14 yma o hyd

Just one question - where was Merkel, where were those German bishops, where, in fact were all those who are jumping up and down about the Pope now, when the streets in their towns, cities and capitals showed the most outrageous antisemitic demonstrations in the last few weeks?

One finger pointing at the Pope - four fingers pointing back at you, you hypocrites!

And I’m not even asking about your stance towards Israel …

It’s is an old trick in German politics and one that needs to be carefully watched: The pretense of friendship and solidarity with jews in the context of the history of the Holocaust. Lots of antizionists (the modern day antisemites) in Germany will justify their disgusting comparisons of Israel and Nazi Germany by saying that because Germany has this special history, Germans now supposedly have a special responsibility in the world and thus supposedly cannot “keep quiet about the astrocities in the middle east repeating themselves”.

It’s highly irritating that the hypocrites (and personally, I think being a hypocrite is a core element of being an antisemite) can twist historical facts around like that and use them to push their own agenda. I think Henryk M. Broder put it best when he said that Germans will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust.

162 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:53:21am

re: #160 monkeytime

If you want me to read something: SHOW ME A LINK.

What I am refering to is the FACT that no Catholic Nazi was excommunicated by the Church before, during or after the Holocaust. That is a fact. You decide how you feel about it.

163 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:53:30am

re: #24 Sharmuta

Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.

Something I am grateful for, even if it gives denialists a point in whining about their right to free speech being restrained.

Williamson would get arrested and charged if he entered Germany right now.

164 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:54:13am

re: #159 Clio

You never know what people’s ‘tikkun’ is on this Earth.

165 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:54:54am
166 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:55:53am

re: #128 ploome hineni

Did you see this line of the article you posted:
He also noted that “these bishops are still suspended.”

I also think this was a bad move to lift the excommunication to which you state that no anti semite was ever excommunicated - but to take that and make it out like the “Catholic Church” hates Jews is a far and erroneous mistake.

167 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 11:59:02am

re: #48 MandyManners

Utter denial or a questioning-of-the-numbers denial?

Basically, there is no law that expictly says “Holocaust denial is forbidden”. The crimes that are involved and that and are defined in laws which are called up on when charging denialists are:

insult
denigration of the memory of the deceased
incitement to racial hatred
endorsement of criminal acts

168 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:00:14pm

re: #162 WriterMom

If you want me to read something: SHOW ME A LINK.

What I am refering to is the FACT that no Catholic Nazi was excommunicated by the Church before, during or after the Holocaust. That is a fact. You decide how you feel about it.

I have read MANY things the Pope has written on anti semitism and not one that shows otherwise. If you have something to show me that makes your point I’ll be happy to read it. The fact is - there is no church teachings that are anti semetic. My 3g is too slow in my lead/cooper laden walls to start pulling tons of links. Just google his history and read it. I would certainly rather do that then go about making statements against a Jewish leader that I hand’t bothered to read what he had written/spoken. BTW - where is your list of who has been excommunicated from the Catholic Church? I’d like to see it.

169 jimmyk  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:01:25pm

My understanding is that this is purely to eliminate a dangerous (to the Pope’s mind) schism in the church, and the Pope has been overwhelmingly clear and honorable in his condemnations of both anti-semitism and holocaust denial. But just as Lincoln might have tolerated the (temporary) continuation of slavery in an effort to maintain the union, the Pope wants to keep the church unified. My impression is that the Pope is a decent and honorable man, and keeping these renegades in the church will probably prevent them from doing more damage than if they left.

170 daledog  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:01:53pm

re: #129 jill e

Jill E,
Thanks for the quote. Perhaps Merkel could have read this before opening her big mund (Ger. mouth).

171 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:02:03pm

re: #165 ploome hineni

thanks ploome

172 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:02:35pm

re: #53 Guanxi88

My stance has always been: if they were dragged into the party as youth, no guilt attaches.

Nobody ever became a member of the Nazi Party without himself applying for it. It’s a common myth (often used by people who were later found out to be members but wanted to excuse themselves from that fact) that anybody was ever dragged into it or was signed up for by somebody else: That never happened and the Nazi Party actually was very strict about such things not occuring.

173 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:06:49pm
174 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:07:18pm

re: #172 000G

Nobody ever became a member of the Nazi Party without himself applying for it. It’s a common myth (often used by people who were later found out to be members but wanted to excuse themselves from that fact) that anybody was ever dragged into it or was signed up for by somebody else: That never happened and the Nazi Party actually was very strict about such things not occuring.

There is no love lost between the MSM and the Pope. There is a reason that they are not screaming that he is an anti semite - it is because they have NOTHING on him. It would be plastered front and center if they did. This latest move on his part is bewildering and I can see where it would be cause for question and explanation but not even CNN can turn PBXVI into a flaming anti semite.

175 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:08:41pm
176 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:09:23pm

re: #172 000G

Nobody ever became a member of the Nazi Party without himself applying for it. It’s a common myth (often used by people who were later found out to be members but wanted to excuse themselves from that fact) that anybody was ever dragged into it or was signed up for by somebody else: That never happened and the Nazi Party actually was very strict about such things not occuring.

Enrollment of a child of 14 in the Hitler Youth would have been the act of the child’s parents, not the child.
Just saying.

177 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:09:40pm

re: #168 monkeytime

You seem to have a mild reading comprehension problem. All I am stating is that it is a fact that no Nazis were ever excommunicated from the Church. Do you understand that? What do you think that means? That is, I believe the only subject that I have weighed into.

If you are too lazy to provide links to someone you are trying to convince and to argue with-that’s your problem.

178 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:10:22pm

re: #165 ploome hineni

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

ok, the spelling linked me to a site that said what haring, fails to mention is that he was a pupil of Hans Kung who while is a priest, has a penchant for not liking Popes

179 gander  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:10:33pm

re: #134 WriterMom

Thank you for responding. My experience is that the Catholic Church and the Pope take things in very slow measured steps. The Catholic Church is seeking to bring disparate groups back into communion with it. Catholic means universal, so its a big thing for them. The disparate group he was reaching out to was the Society of Saint Pius X, not holocaust revisionists.
As for the difference between the Pope and a University President…
You are right. There is a world of difference. The Pope is trying to rehabilitate - if you will, some members of his flock. The university president was just being a useful idiot in service to a truly evil person.

180 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:10:51pm

re: #173 ploome hineni

What part of the official Catholic Church Teaching did this come from:
[Link: davidbrog.com…]

While German soldiers serving a neo-pagan Nazi ideology were the ones who carried away his family, Jules Isaac pointed the finger of ultimate blame not at the Nazis, but at the Christian church. He wrote that while the German responsibility for the Holocaust was “overwhelming,” it was only a “derivative responsibility.”(3) The real culprit, Isaac asserted, was the centuries-old tradition of Christian anti-Semitism. In his words:

Christian anti-Semitism is the powerful, millennial tree, with many and strong roots, onto which all the other varieties of anti-Semitism— even the most antagonistic by nature, even anti-Christian—have come to be grafted in the Christian world.(4)
Isaac traced the source of this Christian anti-Semitism to the church’s traditional teaching on the Jews and Judaism, what Isaac named the “teaching of contempt.” In Jesus and Israel, Isaac thoroughly documents and then rebuts this corpus of anti-Jewish beliefs. At the heart of this teaching of contempt was the claim that the Jews “as a whole” had rejected and then crucified Jesus, and that Jesus in turn had rejected and condemned the entire Jewish people. Central also was the church’s uniform denial of Jesus’ Jewish identity and Christianity’s Jewish roots.

181 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:10:54pm
182 phoenixgirl  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:11:37pm

re: #176 Spare O’Lake

Enrollment of a child of 14 in the Hitler Youth would have been the act of the child’s parents, not the child.
Just saying.

it was the law at the time that he join the hitler youth…had nothing to do with parental wishes

183 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:11:48pm
184 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:13:15pm

re: #175 ploome hineni

I assume your sincerity, but I call you on sheer ignorance

Excommunication is usually a private matter. I’ve never seen a list posted. If someone is boldly stating that they know with big bold letters who and who has not been excommunicated I’d like to see the list. You can bully me, call me names and all that - it doesn’t phase me. I have never claimed that there has never been anti semitism in the Catholic Church. I am saying that today - show me official Church teaching - the CCC - or anything else that supports that the Catholic Church hates Jews. It just isn’t true.

185 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:15:53pm

re: #106 quickjustice

I’ll say it directly: the Germans have paid their reparations for World War II atrocities.

Uhm… not quite. They weaseled out of a lot of responsibilities and still are. There are still legal charges and settlement processes regarding the compensation for forced labor and such going on as we post on this blog.

186 monkeytime  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:17:13pm

I’m signing off this thread now with a sad heart. Plome and WriterMom, I want you to know:
I am Catholic and I love the Jewish people. I support them with prayer, friendship and a variety of other things. I hope this move by the Pope does not convince you that Catholics hate Jews. We need to stick together.

187 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:18:27pm

re: #176 Spare O’Lake

Enrollment of a child of 14 in the Hitler Youth would have been the act of the child’s parents, not the child.
Just saying.

Yes, but the Hitler Youth was not the Party. The Party controlled the Youth but wasn’t identical (sorry if that was the impression that I gave off). It’s important to make that distinction and know how these organizations worked. Also, I think people living in the US are often not aware of the fact that party affiliation in Germany normally means you are an actual recorded member of the party (as opposed to just working together in politics in a certain party line).

188 Hhar  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:18:38pm

I think Benedict is trying to fix a problem in his church. That’s his job. I also do not think he’s an anti-Semite, and I think one can confidently and clearly reject outright the notion that even conservative Catholicism implies an irrational hatred of Jews and Judaism (i.e. antisemitism).

On the other hand, why anyone thinks that Jews should just shut up about all of this is beyond me.

189 rumcrook  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:37:22pm

re: #78 Guanxi88

while your at it get some rubber cement and glue a cartoon of mo on the cover….

you know to lighten the mood, everyone loves cartoons.

190 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:39:12pm
191 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:39:52pm

re: #184 monkeytime

Excommunication is usually a private matter. I’ve never seen a list posted. If someone is boldly stating that they know with big bold letters who and who has not been excommunicated I’d like to see the list. You can bully me, call me names and all that - it doesn’t phase me. I have never claimed that there has never been anti semitism in the Catholic Church. I am saying that today - show me official Church teaching - the CCC - or anything else that supports that the Catholic Church hates Jews. It just isn’t true.

The “schism” which the Pope now seeks to heal, in part by kissing the ass of the holocaust denier Williamson, is the breakaway of some 600,00 Catholics who refuse to recognize Vatican II. Two of the main reforms of Vatican II were to put an end to the ritual calls for conversion of Jews to Catholicism and to stop blaming the Jews for the killing of Christ. The reason for the Vatican II reforms, brought in by the great Pope John Paul II, was to move the Church away from its history of promoting anti-Semitism via these ingrained prejudicial prayers against Jews.

By refusing to stipulate for acceptance of Vatican II as a precondition of readmitting the breakaway group into the main Church, one can easily conclude that the Pope himself does not consider acceptance of Vatican II to be of central importance. This is quite apart from the Pope’s seeming willingness to turn a blind eye to holocaust denial in order to grease the wheels of Church unity.

192 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:40:23pm

re: #186 monkeytime

Personally, I believe that Christians are the Jews’ best friends-and that we should stick together against Islamic barbarity. We have to just acknowledge history-the wounds and work together.

193 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:41:48pm
194 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:45:12pm

re: #179 gander

This is a very painful topic for Jews and Catholic and most often results in total meltdowns. If we keep the discussion civil, we will prevail. As I said upthread, I believe that Christians are natural allies of Israel and the Jews. Jesus was a Jewish carpenter for goodness sake. The Holocaust is the most painful thing for Jews and Catholics to discuss and that will not change. The question is-how to make things better for our people? How are things made worse? How do we work together to defeat those who wish to anhiliate us?

The difficulty in discussing the topic should not cause saddness or despair, but rather should make us thankful that we have lived to see the day where we can talk about it openly and freely. And thankful that we have Israel-the country now-to support so that Jews always have a refuge from their enemies, which was not the case for us in WW2.

195 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:46:11pm

re: #191 Spare O’Lake

What you said.

196 Hhar  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:47:52pm

re: #190 ploome hineni

Well, of course he has his own agenda. He can be expected to. But if I agreed with everything the Pope thought, I’d be a Catholic, which is why it is perfectly fair for Jews to criticise the Pope on this: we aren’t Catholics.

As far as I can see it is a legitimate and inevitable conflict of legitimate competing interests. It seems obvious to me that religious control over Holy sites in Israel is a colossal failure for anybody but a pluralist state with a policy based in the rule of law. There is only one pluralist state that has ever occupied Jerusalem, and that state isn’t run by the Catholic Church.

And he can pray for me all he likes. Might even do me some good (I mean, who knows? Don’t care either.)

197 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:49:25pm
198 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 12:54:37pm
199 Hhar  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:03:38pm

re: #198 ploome hineni

Enh. I’m told its a variant text, and again, so what? Why can’t Catholic think I’m misguided? Most of ‘em with no experience of Jews or who haven’t studied the matter probably think so anyway (And why shouldn’t they? The doctrinal issues are not introductory level.) so where’s the harm? I mean, shoot, actual antisemitism is common as dirt: this i’m going to care about? Especially in light of the catechism? No, I don’t think so.

If anything, it demonstrates exactly why Jews and Catholics shouldn’t work for some great ecumenical hope-and-change-maybe-we-can-have-interfaith-marriages fest, but should concentrate on simply not strafing each other unecessarily. The sooner Catholics figure out that Holocaust denial is a big hairy freaking deal to us, and isn’t just a bit of media fed hysteria, the better.

200 J.S.  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:09:18pm

re: #142 Sharmuta

Ok. But how does “the author had the audacity to say the Jews didn’t have a right to question the Church concerning a Holocaust denier” when the author wrote: “By now, as far as anti-defamation activism is concerned, our community has squandered much of its credibility. Therefore when a real issue of concern arises, as in the Williamson affair, we have little on which to draw. Under circumstances like these, some Christians will listen politely but then turn away, citing technicalities.” [emphasis added]…Was the author really saying that Jews don’t have a right to question the church or that Jews have (in the past) been such complainers about every little thing, that when a real issue arises, their complaints will fall on deaf ears? I believe it’s the latter…(if you’ve followed along with some of this “back and forth” with the ADL and certain other individuals, it’s like an on-going slogging match between Abe Foxman, on the left, and certain Orthodox individuals…) but, anyway, that aside (it’s an interpretation issue, I guess), just another little note — about that “second the Germans continuing to atone for the atrocities of their forefathers” — I would say, “it’s a matter of the German State doing what’s necessary, in terms of making amends, repairs, etc.”, but saying that Germans should atone for the atrocities of their forefathers sounds like the inheritance of sin (I wouldn’t, for example, wish to be held accountable for something hideous my ancestors did — each individual should be held accountable for his/her own behavior, not that of others…Although, I suppose it is particularly vexatious if children of nazi parents grow up, and they choose to continue to act in a prejudicial fashion/become antisemites, etc. — that does seem to be particularly problematic, since of all people, they should be the ones to have learned and turned away/repudiated the misdeeds/crimes of their parents.)

201 Lynn B.  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:28:35pm

re: #14 yma o hyd

Just one question - where was Merkel, where were those German bishops, where, in fact were all those who are jumping up and down about the Pope now, when the streets in their towns, cities and capitals showed the most outrageous antisemitic demonstrations in the last few weeks?

One finger pointing at the Pope - four fingers pointing back at you, you hypocrites!

And I’m not even asking about your stance towards Israel …

Sorry. But that’s just not fair. At least not to Merkel.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s unconditional support of Israel’s retaliatory strikes in Gaza has prompted a rising number of attacks from her coalition partner, the Social Democratic Party (SPD), as well as the Free Democratic Party (FDP) and the Left Party.

202 Freods  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:35:32pm

If someone disagrees with an historical fact - say someone believes 9/11 was an inside job- does that mean he cannot be in full communion with the Catholic Church? If someone is mentally ill, does that disqualify him from church membership? Maybe someone who knows canon law can answer these questions.

203 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:35:55pm
who questioned whether 6 million Jews were gassed

6 million weren’t gassed.

They were all murdered in different ways, gas being one.

204 godfrey  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:50:46pm

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, one of the four bishops consecrated in 1988 by Bishop Lefebvre without authorization from the Holy See. Lefebvre had been ordaining priests without permission. These ordinations and episcopal consecrations were unlawful and schismastic, deliberate acts that placed them outside communion with Rome — hence, they were all declared “excommunicate.” While their Masses were “valid,” then, they (along with other sacraments) were illicit. It was a near-schism. Schism is painful in the RC Church. There are 500 priests currently suspended a divinis in this “SSPX” community of 60,000 faithful.

Bishop Fellay recently expressed, on behalf of the four bishops, for re-communion. This the current Pope regards as a welcome and healing development, provided the repentence is sincere, substantive, real. As we know, Benedict lifted the declaration of excommunication, but all the clergy in question are still suspended, including Williamson.

Now we have the added complication of Williamson himself, who has been anti-Semitic and hasn’t disavowed it completely. The pressure on him is now intense, particularly since Bishop Fellay issued this statement on January 1st:

“We reject every accusation of Antisemitism. Completely and absolutely. We reject every form of approval of what happened under Hitler. This is something abominable. Christianity places Charity at a supreme level. Saint Paul, speaking of the Jews, proclaims, ‘I wished myself to be an anathema [from Christ], for my brethren!” (Rom. 9, 3). The Jews are “our elder brothers” in the sense that we have something in common, that is, the old Covenant. It is true that the acknowledgment of the coming of the Messiah separates us.”

“It is very interesting to notice that the Church did not await for the Council [Vatican II] to prescribe courses of action regarding the Jews. Since the 30s, even during the war, several texts of Rome provide a very just position: the abominations of the Hitlerist regime must be condemned! ‘Spiritually, we are all Semites’, Pope Pius XI had said. It is a truth which comes from Sacred Scripture itself, ‘we are sons of Abraham,’ Saint Paul also affirms.”

Benedict lifted excommunication as the first step toward fixing the SSPX near-schism. Watch. Benedict will now triangulate against the anti-Semites, put them in a corner, and elicit full recantation. The tiny minority will become even tinier, and Rome will continue to be an ever stauncher ally of Jews and Judaism.

Of course, this doesn’t stop Catholic-haters from using the issue as a wedge, i.e. to paint the lifting of excommunication as an embrace of anti-Semitism and holocaust denial. But this will not stick because it does not stick.

205 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 1:55:20pm

re: #134 gander

Did the president of Columbia University step down as a result of the Holocaust denying Iranian Dictator being given a forum to disseminate his….. diverse viewpoint to an American audience?

As ploome put it, the role of a University President over guests into his organisation differs from that of the Pope over those in communion within his organisation. The University President can’t tell Ahmadinejad he’s not a real Imami Shi’a Muslim. That’s up to Sistani.

As for the Pope’s initial reaction: we’re all entitled as humans and Christians to divine mercy if we truly repent. These former schismatics have mostly repented of their schism. Williamson, it turned out, had more of which to repent, but he’s also entitled (I think) to a little leeway.

But given Williamson’s unapologetic antiSemitism, and general slimy odiousness, I’d say he’s run out of chances and he’s made himself a problem for the Church. (And, incidentally, a personal celebrity, which was Williamson’s goal all along.)

As for the Pope stepping down: I remember how incapacitated John Paul II was from 1999-2005. It would have far been better for the Church if he’d stepped down in, say, Christmas Eve 2001. I’m not yet willing to say the same for Benedict XVI; but it’s increasingly looking like he’s not paying attention, and I worry that he’s at a point where he CAN’T pay attention…

I will also note that if he were still a priest and applied to become a bishop, the Church wouldn’t let him because he’s too old. If he were a bishop and applied to become a cardinal, again, it wouldn’t let him.

206 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:04:42pm

re: #204 godfrey

hasn’t disavowed it completely

Gimme a break. The fuckhead Williamson is a complete and utter holocaust-denying Jew-hater. And his apology to the Pope was a gross insult illustrative of the dishonest piece of shit that he is.
The sooner the Pope puts this asshole in his place the better for all concerned.
Of course I for one do hope your prognostication proves to be correct.

207 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:04:56pm

re: #202 Freods

If someone disagrees with an historical fact - say someone believes 9/11 was an inside job- does that mean he cannot be in full communion with the Catholic Church? If someone is mentally ill, does that disqualify him from church membership? Maybe someone who knows canon law can answer these questions.

Canon law is all about intent.

Disagreeing over a “detail of history” in the sober style of a historian is okay. Disagreeing over a “detail of history” delivered in the sneer of a Jean Marie Le Pen is NOT okay. Disagreeing over a “detail of history” in the sense of believing that the aliens who implanted that microchip in one’s skull also engineered the Nazis is just sad, and the Church would probably offer at least the anointing-of-the-sick as well as communion.

208 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:10:31pm

re: #204 godfrey

Of course, this doesn’t stop Catholic-haters from using the issue as a wedge, i.e. to paint the lifting of excommunication as an embrace of anti-Semitism and holocaust denial. But this will not stick because it does not stick.

But, it IS sticking. Anyone who went to Mass last Sunday was in full communion with the Virgin Mary, all the saints, and this Williamson character. This isn’t a minor issue to be wished away as “catholic hating”. Not to me anyway.

Those of us who are sickened by this circus include many Catholics and friends of Catholics.

209 jill e  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:20:18pm

These threads have become just plain sad.

Pope Benedict and the Catholic Church are and will always be the greatest ally for the Jewish people. The Williamson excommunication is an issue that has to do with the man’s soul, which is obviously still in desperate need of saving. That’s the Pope’s job—to save souls. The most appropriate place for Williamson is in the Church.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the son RETURNED HOME, and despite his many sins and wrongdoings, his father welcomed him with open arms, placed rings on his fingers and called for a celebration. By welcoming his son, he was not condoning his behavior. He was providing love and mercy, and a way for his son to change his ways and repent.

Mercy…hopefully we all experience it when we need it most.

Time for an early Lent…a “fasting” from the blogosphere, which for all the good it can do, can also lead to divisiveness and hate that serves only our enemies.

210 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:21:33pm
211 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:22:49pm
212 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:28:12pm

re: #209 jill e

Don’t be sad. There are some people whose hate so overflows with venom that they cannot help but spew it every opportunity.

Pray for them.

213 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:28:39pm

re: #209 jill e


In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the son RETURNED HOME, and despite his many sins and wrongdoings, his father welcomed him with open arms, placed rings on his fingers and called for a celebration. By welcoming his son, he was not condoning his behavior. He was providing love and mercy, and a way for his son to change his ways and repent.

When the son returned home, did he start by saying “I’m sorry you were offended by all the things I did back then, and by the way, I had a wonderful time dragging the family name in the mud, hope to do it again some time”?

214 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:33:37pm

re: #212 nonic

Don’t be sad. There are some people whose hate so overflows with venom that they cannot help but spew it every opportunity.
Pray for them.

Williamson and his ilk are the venomous hate-spewers.
Pray for THEM.

215 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:36:12pm

re: #214 Spare O’Lake

Williamson and his ilk are the venomous hate-spewers.
Pray for THEM.

Of course. :-) Pray for EVERYONE in spiritual need.

216 godfrey  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:38:38pm

ploome

antisemites sicken me wherever they appear

the Catholic left is full of them, as we know

B16 now has them in a juridical process which gives him leverage

lifting excom was a political risk, and now the pressure is rightly on to make it work to the best result

anyone who doubts B16’s sincerity in this doesn’t know him

217 godfrey  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:44:34pm

re: #208 Zimriel

not true in crucial ways

Williamson is now in communion, but is it lawful to go to his Masses? no

he is suspended — and so his communion with priests is suspended
/sorry to be slow, I’m on a mobile

if you like, he is in limbo — and he will soon be made to assent to Nostra Aetate or remain suspended

218 godfrey  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:47:55pm

ploome

the sequence/process grieves me but have faith in those of us working behind the scenes
/he says, praying for justice

219 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 2:56:29pm

I think the distinction that is causing the most trouble in regard to this entire matter is that the Pope is acting / has acted as though lifting the excommunication of schismatics is a RELIGIOUS issue. While his critics, for the most part, see it as a POLITICAL or PUBLIC RELATIONS issue.

That confusion is not limited to things Catholic.

Unfortunately, it is at the HEART of the West’s problem with islam. The muslims’ god tells them to dominate or kill —- as a RELIGIOUS duty.

We can pretend otherwise, for a while still, but we are facing Armageddon.

220 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:07:22pm
221 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:08:18pm
222 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:11:14pm
223 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:15:01pm

re: #220 ploome hineni

to whom is it that you may be referring?

I was referring to hateful people who spew venom, which is what I said.

God knows there are plenty enough of them in the world, and their mischief is incalculable. They cause trouble and make THEMSELVES hugely unhappy.

Which is why we should pray for them to find peace. :-)

224 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:19:12pm

re: #221 ploome hineni

and of course

NEVER point out the mote in their eye, until you have cleared the beam in your own

I wonder whether that’s really possible to do. Even Mother Theresa felt that she was sinful and unworthy. And not being able to know her soul, we cannot know that she wasn’t.

It would take a Puritan zeal, I guess. Or an islamic fanaticism to assure oneself of one’s own perfection before daring to ask God to show mercy to others.

I don’t choose to aspire to that level of “righteousness.”

225 dhimmimoore  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:23:56pm

Number of times Merkel has condemned holocaust denial of numerous Islamic religious and political leaders who support it, and teach it to their flock: ?

Number of times Merkel has condemend the pope because one non-recognized Bishop who is now allowed to take communion along with 2 billion other Catholics turns out to be a holocaust denier: 1

What is the story here? Charles is just throwing more meat to the Catholic haters around here.

226 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 3:31:14pm

re: #225 dhimmimoore

Hello. :-) Glad to meet you. Astute company is always a pleasure — and so often a surprise.

dhimmimoore. That’s cool. But I saw recently in a “special features” thingie on a disc (it must have been “Ghost”) that she pronounces it duh-ME. Not

dummy

, let’s not be cruel. But as though it were French. No big deal, just thought I’d mention it. :-)

Small talk. LOL

227 dhimmimoore  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 4:01:54pm

Thanks — yes I originally was taking a dig at Michael Moore but typed in DhimmiMoore and thought it was appropriate.

See, my comment has already been down-dinged. Why? Because I spoke the truth? Would it have been better for me to insult the Catholic church like everyone wants? The Catholic church for so long has been the keeper of western civilization. But oh well.

I don’t post here very often anymore because of ideological differences. There isn’t much room for conservatives, libertarians, Catholics, or even protestants. It’s pretty much big-government liberals who’ve become anti-jihad.

228 nonic  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 4:27:46pm

re: #227 dhimmimoore

Looking back at your post, I think what earned you a down ding was an implied criticism of Charles — which I hadn’t really noticed before.

I just thought you were really on point regarding Merkel’s hypocrisy.

When all this business first started about Williamson, I was (dare I say?) angry at the PLOY of it all, the way the media was clearly baiting the Jewish community at the Pope’s expense. A Jewish very dear friend of mine assumed I (a Catholic) was “embarrassed.” Hell, no. I was angry at the media once again misinforming people and at the Jews who were rising to the stinking bait.

Now, I give up. People will make of it what they want — as they will with everything.

I doi feel strongly, as I said in #219 above, that most people don’t understand AT ALL what has happened. The Catholic Church is not a CLUB that can expell people for “wrong thinking.”

There are, in fact, very few dogmas that one MUST believe to be a Catholic — offhand, the Trinity, the Resurrection, maybe the Virgin Birth, I’m not sure about that, maybe a couple of other things. But the point is, one does NOT have to hold any particular political or historical opinions. Not even abortion. Some bishops want to withhold Communion from people who support abortion, but I believe they do not really have the right to do that.

People who don’t relate to the Church on the basis of FAITH —- at least have real faith of their own in some other religious affiliation —- probably just CANNOT understand.

Which is what I was getting at regarding islam in #219.

229 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 5:50:41pm

re: #14 yma o hyd

One finger pointing at the Pope - four fingers pointing back at you, you hypocrites!

Um, so Merkel has an extra finger?

230 Petra  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 6:21:14pm

re: #227 dhimmimoore

Thanks — yes I originally was taking a dig at Michael Moore but typed in DhimmiMoore and thought it was appropriate.

See, my comment has already been down-dinged. Why? Because I spoke the truth? Would it have been better for me to insult the Catholic church like everyone wants? The Catholic church for so long has been the keeper of western civilization. But oh well.

I don’t post here very often anymore because of ideological differences. There isn’t much room for conservatives, libertarians, Catholics, or even protestants. It’s pretty much big-government liberals who’ve become anti-jihad.


Agree. This is an AP article for heaven’s sake. Suffice it to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with any particular sympathy the media have for Jews – or certainly for Israel! It has everything to do with their hatred for the Holy Roman Church and what She represents.

231 Petra  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 6:26:47pm

re: #228 nonic

Looking back at your post, I think what earned you a down ding was an implied criticism of Charles — which I hadn’t really noticed before.

I just thought you were really on point regarding Merkel’s hypocrisy.

When all this business first started about Williamson, I was (dare I say?) angry at the PLOY of it all, the way the media was clearly baiting the Jewish community at the Pope’s expense. A Jewish very dear friend of mine assumed I (a Catholic) was “embarrassed.” Hell, no. I was angry at the media once again misinforming people and at the Jews who were rising to the stinking bait.

Now, I give up. People will make of it what they want — as they will with everything.

I doi feel strongly, as I said in #219 above, that most people don’t understand AT ALL what has happened. The Catholic Church is not a CLUB that can expell people for “wrong thinking.”

People who don’t relate to the Church on the basis of FAITH —- at least have real faith of their own in some other religious affiliation —- probably just CANNOT understand.

Which is what I was getting at regarding islam in #219.

Yes! There’s so much more going on that they don’t know and the MSM certainly aren’t going to investigate.

232 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 7:22:48pm

re: #124 jill e

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God’s
When mercy seasons justice.
—William Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice

Bravo.

You are aware, though, aren’t you, there’s more than a little irony in choosing this quote? Portia’s speech is directed to Shylock, the stereotypical unmerciful Jew, who demands his literal pound of Christian flesh for nonpayment of a debt.

Really, you ought to have been able to come up with something less loaded…

233 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 8:47:58pm

re: #42 MandyManners

Doesn’t the Society of Pius X (or, somesuch name) holds that again Jews should be called the killers of Christ.

From the FAQ pages of at sspx.org, the official website of the Society to which Williamson belongs, we learn:

Q. Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide?

A. The teaching of Sacred Scripture on this question is quite explicit. St. John explains that if Pilate sentenced Jesus Christ to death, it was only on account of the insistence of the Jews. […] The Jews were consequently directly responsible for the crucifixion.[…] The Gospel teaches us, therefore, that the Jewish race brought upon themselves the curse that followed the crime of deicide.

However… Jews of today are manifestly not responsible for that sin [of deicide]. The curse [that they bear] is of a different nature, and corresponds to the greatness of the vocation of the Jewish people as a preparation for the Messiah. Just as the true Israelites, who accept the Messiah, are the first to receive “glory, honor and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 2:10), so also are [the Israelites who refuse the Messiah] the first to receive the punishment: “Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek” (Romans 2:9).
[…]
This curse is the punishment of blindness to the things of God and eternity, of deafness to the call of conscience… which is the basis of all moral life, of spiritual paralysis, of total preoccupation with an earthly kingdom. It is this that sets them as a people in entire opposition [to] the Catholic Church.

Q. What REALLY is “anti-Semitism”?

A. For the Jews, “Anti-Semitism” is anything that is in opposition to the naturalistic Messianic domination of their nation over all the others. Quite logically, the leaders of the Jewish nation hold that to stand for the Rights of Christ the King is to be “Anti-Semitic.” The term “Anti-Semitism” … is being extended to include any form of opposition to the Jewish nation’s naturalistic aims and any exposure of the methods they adopt to achieve these aims.

Q. Is it correct to speak of “our JUDEO-Christian heritage”?

A. How could one possibly use the title of “Judeo-Christian heritage” to express one’s attachment to [the moral principles of the Ten Commandments and the Old Covenant], when the Jews themselves practiced polygamy and divorce; when the Jews did not hesitate to undermine the first and great commandment of the love of God and neighbor, by teaching … “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” (Matthew 5:38)? [When] the vast majority of Jews have no problem with euthanasia, abortion, birth control, divorce, homosexuality, and even the elimination of God and love towards our neighbor, from public life… [what] could this title “Judeo-Christian heritage” consequently really mean?

In short, Mandy, although SSPX says (in agreement with the Vatican) that Jews today are not guilty of “killing Christ,” SSPX is nevertheless chock-full o’ Judenhass.

234 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 8:50:20pm

Following up on my previous comment: I think that the German bishops should spend less time quizzing the Pope about his views on the Holocaust, and more time asking His Holiness if Jews who reject Christ are (as SSPX says) cursed above Hindus and atheists and $cientologists who likewise reject Christ; and whether Benny agrees with SSPX’s view that Jews want to rule over the Gentiles and turn everyone into divorced homosexual abortionists.

235 J.S.  Tue, Feb 3, 2009 9:00:12pm

re: #234 Throbert McGee

and turn everyone into divorced homosexual abortionists.

you mean it’s not about being a cannibal Zionist Honcho?…i’m bitterly disappointed…

236 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 1:23:56am

re: #227 dhimmimoore

The Catholic church for so long has been the keeper of western civilization.

If that ever was true (which I doubt) then it isn’t anymore since March 23 1933, when the catholic Centre Party voted in favor of Hitler’s Enabling Act, putting the final bullet to the concept of Weimar democracy.

237 godfrey  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:44:10am

Just a follow-up to this thread:

Vatican: Holocaust denier must recant

238 Hhar  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 9:06:08am

re: #237 godfrey

Super duper. Way to go vatican!

239 Smorgasbord  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:48:29pm

If the Vatican doesn’t have cable which includes the History Channel, it is possible they aren’t up to date on that part of history.


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