Collapse of a Texas Quote Mine

Science • Views: 4,770

When the Texas State Board of Education met to consider a draft of their new science standards (tainted with the influence of the Discovery Institute, who managed to plant two DI shills on the panel), board chairman Don McLeroy—a young earth creationist—read into the record a long list of quotes to support his anti-evolution proposals.

Would you be shocked to learn that every single one of these quotes was distorted, made up, altered, or radically out of context? This dishonest creationist tactic is so common that it has a name: “quote mining.”

And here’s a great website that exposes the deceptiveness of McLeroy’s quotes, by showing exactly where they came from (if they weren’t altogether invented), and the context in which they were made: Collapse of a Texas Quote Mine.

Here’s one example, out of many:

Quote as presented by McLeroy

“…natural selection operates essentially to enable the organisms to maintain their state of adaptation rather than to improve it.” Lewontin, Richard C., Adaptation, Scientific American (and Scientific American book Evolution), September 1978

Additional Context

“Van Valen’s theory [the Red Queen hypothesis] is that the environment is constantly decaying with respect to existing organism, so that natural selection operates essentially to enable the organisms to maintain their state of adaptation rather than to improve it. Evidence from the Red Queen hypothesis comes from an examination of extinction rates in a large number of evolutionary lines. If natural selection were actually improving the fit of organisms to their environments, then we might expect the probability that a species will become extinct in the next time period to be less for species that have already been in existence for a long time, since the long-lived species are presumably the ones that have been improved by natural selection. The data show, however, that the probability of extinction of a species appears to be a constant, characteristic of the group to which it belongs but independent of whether that species has been in existence for a long time or a short one. In other words, natural selection over the long run does not seem to improve a species chance of survival but simply enables it to ‘track,’ or keep up with, the constantly changing environment…There is no way to explain and predict such evolutionary adaptations unless a priori niches can be described on the basis of some physical principles before organisms come to occupy them.”

Richard C. Lewontin
“Adaptation”
Scientific American
Vol. 239, No. 3
Sept. 1978
Page 215

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732 comments
1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:18:07pm

I thought that was what Biden and Pelosi are--quote mines.

2 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:19:00pm
3 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:20:06pm

How many creationists are trapped?

4 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:20:21pm

I would expect nothing less from people whose main goal in life is to push their religious beliefs on others instead of concentrating on what Jesus Christ really wanted his followers to do. Their agenda is clear and it has nothing to with Christ's teachings. These type of people give Christians a bad name.

5 6pat6  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:20:51pm

Pelosi's comment about "500 million Americans going jobless every month" has to be repeated over and over and over again!

6 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:21:08pm

Busted big time! I mean regally and royally! This needs to get to all the germane and pertinent people.

7 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:22:27pm

Journalists and quote miners ....
two acorns from the same evolution tree.

8 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:23:08pm

Creationists quote mining? Why- whoever would have thought it of them? //////

9 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #6 Salamantis

Busted big time! I mean regally and royally! This needs to get to all the germane and pertinent people.

Huh?
Who you calling germane and pertinent?

Dem's fighting words, take it back!

/ ;-)

10 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:24:28pm

I am so tired. How long can this go on?

11 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:25:06pm

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

12 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:25:29pm

re: #10 CyanSnowHawk

I am so tired. How long can this go on?

Oops, I liked ta slipped down...

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:25:35pm

You'd think the Bible would have some some of restrictions on lying and baring false witness.
/

14 LGoPs  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:25:55pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

I thought that was what Biden and Pelosi are--quote mines.

More like quota mines.......

15 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:26:01pm

re: #10 CyanSnowHawk

I am so tired. How long can this go on?

If we give up, this will go very quickly.
Are you still tired now?

16 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:26:05pm

Did McLeroy know he was spewing lies or was he given a bunch of talking points by the DI?

17 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:26:25pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Did McLeroy know he was spewing lies or was he given a bunch of talking points by the DI?

Did he care?

18 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:27:08pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

You'd think the Bible would have some some of restrictions on lying and baring false witness.
/

Those verses only apply to heathen atheists who are going to burn in HELL for eternity!
/

19 Scion9  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:27:21pm

re: #16 MandyManners

I think anyone in his position that doesn't research both sides of an issue isn't much better than a liar anyway. If he was misled by the DI, then he wanted to be.

20 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:27:30pm

BTW, Ben Stein did the exact same thing in Expelled my editing Darwin quotes to change their meaning.

21 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:27:39pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

Finally.

22 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:27:54pm
23 Soona'  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:28:15pm

For me this is a good thread to say auf wiedersehen, lizards. Bis morgen.

24 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:28:18pm

In Palestine, we have goat mine!

25 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:28:40pm
26 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:28:59pm

re: #15 notutopia

If we give up, this will go very quickly.
Are you still tired now?

Workin' in a quote mine,
Goin' down and down.

27 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:29:02pm

re: #18 JCM

Darn it. I knew there had to be a catch.

28 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:29:19pm

re: #16 MandyManners

I'm sure he did.

29 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:29:27pm

The environment for a predator decays whenever the prey becomes a tad swifter or more alert. The predator must match this or get left in the dust.

The pronghorn antelope has fleetness that has no use in today's North America, nor had it any use a thousand years ago. They literally ran the North American cheetah to extinction.

Why still so fast? Perhaps pronghorns include running in their courtship patterns? Or maybe I'm exaggerating, and it never hurts to be a lot faster than the wolf---so much so that they don't even try?

30 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:30:18pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

I will pray for you.

31 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:30:59pm

re: #22 buzzsawmonkey

The quotes were created?

I think they evolved under pressure from external forces, then slowly were changed by environmental pressure into something completely different.

32 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:31:01pm

McLeroy is lying for Jesus.

33 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:31:12pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

Can I quote you on that?

34 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:31:13pm

This is some good forensic work:

"However, as the evidence below demonstrates, it appears that Dr. McLeroy may not have read all of the sources on his list. In fact, it appears he may have plagiarized some of his quotes from a Creationist website called "Genesis Park."
Well, the first indication was that the sequence of the quotes is identical. Second, the quotes themselves are nearly identical, with two quotes slightly shortened in McLeroy's presentation. Third, the punctuation used in the quotes is nearly identical, with slight corrections apparently made by McLeroy (errant question marks were replaced by apostrophes). Finally, the citation style used in each list is identical, and yet different from the style used in the other quotes on Dr. McLeroy's handout."


[Link: www.anevolvingcreation.net...]

35 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:31:18pm
36 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:31:48pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

But at least you're honest.

/

37 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:31:53pm
38 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:33:04pm

Of course, comrades, science will be controlled by the State soon, so it won't matter.

39 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:33:14pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

Darn it. I knew there had to be a catch.

It's a hell of a catch, that Catch-22.

Best there is.

40 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:33:15pm

re: #32 Charles

McLeroy was lying for Jesus.

I'm doing a search right now...
I don't find taqiyya in the Bible.......
Running Greek and Hebrew translations...
Nope..
Multiple translations..
Nope.

I wonder which Bible he's using?

41 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:33:44pm

re: #17 JCM

Did he care?

He should if he has one iota of integrity.

42 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:33:57pm

re: #38 faraway

Of course, comrades, science will be controlled by the State soon, so it won't matter.

That's crazy talk. Now quiet and drink your Pepsi.

/
/////

43 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:34:02pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, hate Christians, and bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

Keep posting it Charles! I think those of us who are critical thinking Christians (myself included) really value these types of stories. I know that they have certainly opened my eyes to some very deceptive tactics that I know Jesus would not have approved of or condoned. I'm not sure what type of Christianity these folks are practicing but they may want to pick up a Bible and refresh their memories on things like the Ten Commandments and Paul's letter to the Romans.

44 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:34:19pm

oooo....a gun thread!
jus kidding

45 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:34:43pm

re: #37 buzzsawmonkey

Rather than being igneous, they were ignominious?

About as bright as the first, but far denser, and total ignominious.

46 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:34:44pm

re: #38 faraway

Of course, comrades, science will be controlled by the State soon, so it won't matter.

No it won't. And it won't be controlled by churches, either. So you can just give up on that theocratic dream.

47 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:34:55pm

I don't see any problem with most of the quotes even out of context.

What seems to be the game, is to say that continuation of a species is somehow a counter-argument to evolution. That's just wrong.

48 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:34:59pm

re: #19 Scion9

I think anyone in his position that doesn't research both sides of an issue isn't much better than a liar anyway. If he was misled by the DI, then he wanted to be.

While I'm sure the man is busy, he is bound by his position to research this stuff.

49 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:35:11pm

re: #44 albusteve

oooo....a gun thread!
jus kidding

LMAO

50 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:35:44pm

You mine sixteen quotes
and what do you get?
Creationist claptrap
that's hard to forget
St. Peter don't you call me
just give me the boot
I'm just a shill for
Discovery Institute

51 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:36:32pm

re: #44 albusteve

oooo....a gun thread!
jus kidding

bang

52 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:37:08pm

I'm feeling real bitter right now.
/

53 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:37:16pm

re: #49 screaming_eagle

LMAO

no disrespect to Charles of course....these thread are seriously important considering who is lurking and plotting....

54 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:37:42pm

re: #34 jaunte

.....re: #34 jaunte

This is some good forensic work:


[Link: www.anevolvingcreation.net...]

Incidentally, this citation error appears to have originated in a book review written in 2002 by someone named Don Moeller. All of the quotes above can also be found within that review, along with the citation error. That means, assuming that the above evidence isn't just an amazing coincidence, Dr. McLeroy actually plagiarized a list of quotes that were transcribed by someone else who was reading some other guy's review of the book that McLeroy claimed to have read.

Did you follow all of that?

He not only quote mined, the dumbass plagiarized wrong citations that are duplicated , from someone else's citation error. What a sloppy crook. This is great!
His presentation will be the laughing stock of his career.
What an ignorant fraud!

55 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:37:52pm

Isn't it kinda embarrassing when you have 2 posts that appear in a row?

56 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:38:15pm
57 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:38:32pm

re: #55 faraway

Isn't it kinda embarrassing when you have 2 posts that appear in a row?

It means you talk too much .. but thats ok.

58 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:38:58pm

re: #55 faraway

Isn't it kinda embarrassing when you have 2 posts that appear in a row?

No

59 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:39:06pm

re: #55 faraway

Isn't it kinda embarrassing when you have 2 posts that appear in a row?

Why?

60 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:39:23pm

Why do you

61 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:39:30pm

Ask?

62 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:39:30pm

re: #32 Charles

He makes an interesting admission....

No arguments on behalf of intelligent design can possibly succeed against naturalism on naturalism's own terms. Let me repeat, no argument can possibly succeed against naturalism on naturalism's own terms.

He knows there isn't a scientific argument to be had. Thus they develop the goal of changing the definition of science.

63 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:40:24pm

re: #5 6pat6

Pelosi's comment about "500 million Americans going jobless every month" has to be repeated over and over and over again!

I saw the clip, and wondered why not one of the oh-so-f**king brilliant journalists there had the brains or b**ls to say, "Ms. Pelosi, according to the last U.S. Census, there are only 310 million Americans, of all ages, period. And only about one in three is an actual worker. Where did you get your '500 million' figure?"

Of course, we know she got it the same place she gets most of her "facts" on oil drilling, global warming, stimulus packages, and the rest. A place she can't reach sitting down because her chair blocks access to it.

The One is a narcissistic egotist. But The Nan is a complete moron.

/And the people in her district keep telling the rest of us that they're smarter than all the rest of us put together, too...

Spit.

cheers

eon

64 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:40:25pm

As I've always stated, the best way to sell a lie is to take two parts truth .. and one part lie .. mix and stir. It worked for Hitler .. heck .. it even worked for Obama .. it could work for you too.

65 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:40:32pm

I'm very concerned about Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC. That man needs meds stat.

66 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:40:37pm
67 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:40:59pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.


Then I guess you hate me.

Bugger.

OR, as Killgore pointed out, many people claim the Christian but by their actions and their words, prove they are not.

68 quickjustice  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:41:16pm

The creationists are lying, distorting, and taking quotes out of context? And all in the name of G-d? Blasphemy? I'm shocked, shocked! ;-)

69 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:41:18pm

And this must have been the SNAKE that gave Eve the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.............'cause it would take one hell of a talking snake to convince me to disobey God.

/talking snakes...?...sounds like ________________

70 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:41:26pm

So what's the over-under on the first down-dinger?

71 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:41:37pm

re: #53 albusteve

no disrespect to Charles of course....these thread are seriously important considering who is lurking and plotting....

Oh I agree.The deception actually pisses me off more than passing theology off as science.

72 mean Gene  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:41:41pm

Excellent site:
[Link: www.anevolvingcreation.net...]
I love the way it opens and closes the context of each quote.
This is "Fisking'' at it's best.

73 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:42:11pm

Quote mine:

"there is no documentation of the branching event between the hominid and the chimpanzee lineages. To make matters worse, most hominid fossils are extremely incomplete. They may consist of a part of a mandible, or the upper part of a skull without face or teeth, or only part of the extremities. … virtually all of them are somewhat controversial."

Actual quote:

"Unfortunately, no hominid fossils—nor such of a fossil chimpanzee—are as yet known for the period between 6 and 13 mya. Thus there is no documentation of the branching event between the hominid and chimpanzee lineages. To make matters worse, most hominid fossils are extremely incomplete. They may consist of a part of a mandible, or the upper part of a skull without face or teeth, or only part of the extremities. Subjectivity is inevitable in the reconstruction of the missing parts. From the beginnings of human paleontology there has been a tendency to compare every fossil with Homo sapiens. A fossil (or particular parts of it) was then considered 'advanced' or primitive ('apelike'). These comparisons showed that hominid evolution tended to be highly 'mosaic.' A very Homo-like dentition may be associated with rather apelike extremities, and other rather incongruous combinations were also found.

A general text on evolution like this one cannot present the cons and pros of all interpretations of the controversial hominid finds (and virtually all of them are somewhat controversial!). This would be totally bewildering for the nonspecialist reader."

Completely shamless.

74 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:42:33pm

re: #70 Charles

So what's the over-under on the first down-dinger?

I'm patiently waiting for the first creationist meltdown.

75 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:42:37pm

re: #32 Charles

McLeroy was lying for Jesus.


This must be the same as "lying for allah"

A little bit lying and Taqkkiya never hurt anyone, right? (do I need these?/////////)

76 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:43:03pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

He makes an interesting admission....

He knows there isn't a scientific argument to be had. Thus they develop the goal of changing the definition of science.

"on naturalisms own terms"...as if Darwinists and science in general has it's turf sprayed against enlightenment of any sort....what a whiner

77 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:43:46pm

re: #73 Sharmuta

Quote mine:

Completely shamless.

No shamwow?

78 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:44:03pm

re: #67 A Kiwi Infidel

Then I guess you hate me.

Bugger.

OR, as Killgore pointed out, many people claim the Christian but by their actions and their words, prove they are not.

As I've pointed out to Charles, its being sold as a return to Christian values etc etc ... but its got nothing to do with Christian values or logic or implementation. There are a lot of people who want an old fashioned Theological Heirarchy back in place so they are in a position of power again.

And they are prepared to lie, cheat and kill to get that.

Nature is not a vacuum, if you dont hold power, wield power or implement it, you wait for someone else to step into that vacuum.

79 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:44:06pm

OT:

Obama Caption contest

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

80 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:44:24pm

re: #73 Sharmuta

Completely shamless.

I think you mean shamful.

81 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:44:37pm

It's a really neat design over there on the quote mine/quotes. You see the mined quote and click on it and it opens up a new window with both quotes. Saves a lot of space, and the little graphic of the pick and rock is cute.

82 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:44:38pm
new science standards

Let's stick with the old tried and true standard of keeping questionable, unscientific religious beliefs out of the classroom.

83 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:45:10pm

re: #79 faraway

OT:

Obama Caption contest

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

"I fart in your general direction"...

84 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:45:15pm

Creationist quote mine collapse in action:

85 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:45:20pm
86 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:45:27pm

re: #80 Charles

I think I need to slow down or get a cup of koffee.

87 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:45:33pm

evening honcos. It's been eventful here I see.

88 Lincolntf  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:45:51pm

re: #79 faraway

"You put you right foot in, you take your right foot out.."

89 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:46:39pm

re: #73 Sharmuta

I appreciate the author's concusion:

"When the chair of the state school board uses out-of-context quotes in order to persuade others to act as he desires, he is undercutting the trust that has been placed in him. When he apparently plagiarizes those quotes from a website and then attempts to pass them off as the result of his own research, he is displaying a disappointing lack of academic integrity."

Maybe that characteristic, Integrity, should be the basis for a new conservative movement.

90 quickjustice  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:46:53pm

Given that Jesus was the opposite of a liar, and the Devil is known as the "Liar" or "Deceiver" in Scripture, I wonder how creationists square their lies and deceit with their alleged Lord. Does it occur to them that maybe they worship someone else instead? And that by misleading the gullible, they are "the blind leading the blind"? ;-)

91 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:46:55pm

re: #70 Charles

So what's the over-under on the first down-dinger?

There hasn't been one yet?

92 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:47:13pm

re: #79 faraway

OT:

Obama Caption contest

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

"Pull my stimulus."

93 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:47:16pm

re: #87 ArmyWife

evening honcos. It's been eventful here I see.

The unravelling of lies and dishonesty in the creationist saga is always a good day to be alive.

Talking of such ... how's 44 today?

94 Scion9  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:47:49pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Yes. There were a lot of Creationists arguing the definition of science on that Allahpundit's thread over on Hot Air.

Some literally didn't know what science was, citing the alteration of a Theory based on newly found evidence as 'not science'. Others staked out the argument that science was inherently flawed because it presupposed the non-existence of God (because the existence of God is of course outside the realm of science).

The second tact is similar to Islamic 'Scholars' stance in regards to the rejection of Western Rationalism. That at the core of our system of logic, the syllogism, is un-Islamic because it denies the will of Allah. The concept that among two mutually exclusive statements, one must true, and one must be false is flawed because with Allah all things are possible.

Deep thinkers all, obviously.

95 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:47:55pm

re: #89 jaunte

The Democrats have lost their integrity. We've found it.

(Ok, I know the Republicans are the subscribers to this drivel - but it's a pretty good slogan none the less)

96 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:49:19pm

re: #95 ArmyWife

Democrats .. integrity?

Where were you the last 67 years?

97 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:49:39pm

I was about comment that we have another runaway thread, but I think it has run out of steam.

98 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:49:44pm

re: #86 Sharmuta

I think I need to slow down or get a cup of koffee.

May I suggest a light smooth cup of Kona? The best coffee is the world..

99 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:50:01pm

re: #79 faraway

OT:

Obama Caption contest

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

"I have proof of a common ancestor between Man and Apes, a fossil I found in Delaware. Joe, come let the people see you."

100 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:50:03pm

really quick OT question - does anyone know if Vista has an alarm clock feature? IF not, are there any on line?My clock broke.

101 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:50:21pm

re: #90 quickjustice


Move to the top of the class.

102 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:50:46pm

"When the chair of the state school board uses out-of-context quotes in order to persuade others to act as he desires, he is undercutting the trust that has been placed in him. When he apparently plagiarizes those quotes from a website and then attempts to pass them off as the result of his own research, he is displaying a disappointing lack of academic integrity."

SLAM!...I'd love to hear a rebuttle...

103 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:50:49pm
104 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:50:57pm

re: #74 Jetpilot1101

I'm patiently waiting for the first creationist meltdown.

There's already one in progress.

105 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:51:05pm

re: #93 Buster Bunny

The last message on my cell from him was "HEEELLLLPPPP". No, kidding. He doesn't call me. Not sure why that is.

106 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:51:25pm

re: #94 Scion9

Many of them used to be over here. I haven't hear the "just a theory " argument in months.

107 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:51:27pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

There's already one in progress.

I must be blind. Where?

108 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:51:44pm

re: #100 Teacake!

really quick OT question - does anyone know if Vista has an alarm clock feature? IF not, are there any on line?My clock broke.

Do you have a TV set with a clock function? Most that do have an alarm function as well.

/Ended up using mine after my clock radio went "pop" the other day.

cheers

eon

109 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:51:54pm

re: #96 Buster Bunny

That's my point - they lost it. Our party found it. We have integrity. Ok, if I have to explain it, it isn't as good a slogan as originally thought. never mind.

110 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:52:12pm

re: #90 quickjustice

Unfortunately, most of them don't think they are lying because they believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and therefore, evolution cannot be true because it isn't in the Bible and God created the world in 6 days etc. etc. etc. What they need to do is take a step back and realize that belief in a supreme god or creator and belief in evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in God and I believe he set this wonderful universe in motion complete with all the neat evolutionary processes that make the study of science so much fun. I think he did this to help us to realize that we are a small piece in a much larger universe. Science points me to God, these dishonest tactics to disparage science point people away from God, the exact opposite of what He wants.

111 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:52:24pm

No TV no cell phone, just a computer and no more clock. lol

112 faraway  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:52:33pm

Obama's new website is down. Not sure why.

113 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:52:36pm

re: #100 Teacake!

Do you have a cell phone? they have an alarm clock feature.

114 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:53:08pm

re: #107 MandyManners

Taking sarcastic remarks seriously, trying to drive the thread off topic- both signs.

115 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:53:25pm
116 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:53:28pm

I'm surprised computers don't have this feature considering how you can get lost in time with these things.

117 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:53:50pm

re: #114 Sharmuta

Taking sarcastic remarks seriously, trying to drive the thread off topic- both signs.

I noticed that.

118 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:53:57pm
119 J.S.  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:54:16pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

"baring false witness."

All right. Yeah...i like that. lol

120 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:54:29pm

re: #113 ArmyWife

Do you have a cell phone? they have an alarm clock feature.

some guy In China set his cell alarm....the alarm went off and so did his head...yesterday

121 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:54:42pm

Well, thanks. Gotta go now and I guess the best thing in this situation is to not have more coffee tonight.

122 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:55:00pm

re: #111 Teacake!

No TV no cell phone, just a computer and no more clock. lol

Vista Sidebar Widgets.

123 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:55:20pm

thanks jcm

124 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:55:38pm

re: #120 albusteve

That could be a bad start to the day!

125 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:55:41pm
126 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:55:42pm

re: #102 albusteve

"When the chair of the state school board uses out-of-context quotes in order to persuade others to act as he desires, he is undercutting the trust that has been placed in him. When he apparently plagiarizes those quotes from a website and then attempts to pass them off as the result of his own research, he is displaying a disappointing lack of academic integrity."

SLAM!...I'd love to hear a rebuttle...

I'd love to hear the Governor say to him,

"You're fired. Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out."

If plagiarism is grounds for dismissal of a college professor, and falsification of source material is grounds for revocation of tenure and scholastic awards (Michael Bellesiles), then this sort of trickery by a state school board head should be grounds for an immediate pink-slipping. Period.

cheers

eon

127 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:55:56pm

re: #110 Jetpilot1101

Unfortunately, most of them don't think they are lying because they believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and therefore, evolution cannot be true because it isn't in the Bible and God created the world in 6 days etc. etc. etc.


Interesting theory but it still doesn't explain the dishonest quotes. They to be aware that they are using dishonestly edited quotes becuase they put a lot of effort into it. I'm also surprised that they even bother. It's too easy to check.

128 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:56:38pm

In just for a moment ... to say it ONCE AGAIN ... !

This is par for the course for these mindsets.
Tent preachers, and others, use it.
It's called "proof texting".
It's essentially amoral, in an intellectual sense.
They see NOTHING wrong with it.

/Elmer Gantry, IIRC

129 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:56:58pm

Good night all.

130 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:57:11pm
131 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:57:15pm

re: #129 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Good night all.


'Night

132 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:57:29pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

I don't think their true audience will follow up on what they assert.

133 MJ  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:58:11pm

Don't know if this has been posted yet:

Hamas TV Bunny Assud Killed; On Deathbed, Calls for Liberation of Tel Aviv and Haifa

[Link: www.memritv.org...]


More depravity from Hamas.

134 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:58:32pm

testing it now. thanks!

135 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:58:39pm

re: #131 A Kiwi Infidel

'Night

Heh ... can't resist.
The Mother of Believers thread wasn't the place for puns, so I'll make it here.

Good night to ewe too.

136 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:58:39pm

The ultimate in kookspiricist youtube sites... This guy's an anti-evolution 9/11 troofer who thinks the CIA is mind controlling everyone and that the Pope and Pat Roberston are agents of satan, the new world order is coming and the end of times is around the corner... it's the convergence of of conspiracy nuttiness. Warning: this guy's nuts, I'm not kidding.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

137 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:58:59pm

re: #32 Charles

McLeroy is lying for Jesus.

I can't believe these dim bulbs dare to wheel in the great G.K. Chesterton as an ally.

Chesterton, in Orthodoxy: "If evolution simply means that a positive thing called an ape turned very slowly into a positive thing called a man, then it is stingless for the most orthodox; for a personal God might just as well do things slowly as quickly, especially if, like the Christian God, he were outside time."

138 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:59:14pm

re: #132 jaunte

I've noticed that for a while. They know the people in the church aren't curious enough to check but they aren't preaching to the choir in this case.

139 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 5:59:58pm

re: #133 MJ

Don't know if this has been posted yet:

Hamas TV Bunny Assud Killed; On Deathbed, Calls for Liberation of Tel Aviv and Haifa

[Link: www.memritv.org...]

More depravity from Hamas.

The bunny is dead .. long live the bunny !

140 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:00:30pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Interesting theory but it still doesn't explain the dishonest quotes. They to be aware that they are using dishonestly edited quotes becuase they put a lot of effort into it. I'm also surprised that they even bother. It's too easy to check.

I'd be willing to bet that everything these guys print, say or do has been "prayerfully considered" and they have discussed their actions over with their "pastoral leader" etc. I'll bet they will all tell you that they have confirmation from God that what they are doing is the right thing. By using this tactic, when they are attacked, they will say you aren't attacking them but attacking God. This will most likely be followed by the "you are going to burn in hell" comment.

141 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:00:37pm

re: #139 Buster Bunny

The bunny is dead .. long live the bunny !

Rabbit season?

cheers

eon

142 Hhar  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:00:42pm

This isn't at all uncommon. Beginner creationists get lists of these quotes, get all fired up, and go on to websites and discussion forums, where you can play a sort of bingo with their quotes. An active scientific creationist can usually pull out a good half dozen quotes from Gould alone on any given day.

The other fun way to play is to try and guess which website the quotes are pulled from. After a while it is pretty predictable, and kinda sad. The smarter ones generally realise that they have been had, and should not have trusted the people they did. Never saw it result in any change of beleif, though. Other things did that.

143 SteveC  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:00:43pm

re: #102 albusteve

SLAM!...I'd love to hear a rebuttle...

Re-butt-al? Plastic surgery?

Hey, I'm not that ugly! :(

144 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:00:44pm

re: #125 taxfreekiller

Paul Harvey goes off at 6:00
two min to get the lap top on
2 min to load lfg
1 min to re-load
ding down

I like the way you think.

145 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:00:45pm

re: #126 eon

I'd love to hear the Governor say to him,

"You're fired. Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out."

If plagiarism is grounds for dismissal of a college professor, and falsification of source material is grounds for revocation of tenure and scholastic awards (Michael Bellesiles), then this sort of trickery by a state school board head should be grounds for an immediate pink-slipping. Period.

cheers

eon

agreed....there doesnt need to be an investigation and a review of policy blah blah...simply call it out and do the right thing....a student would be immediately tossed

146 quickjustice  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:01:10pm

re: #110 Jetpilot1101

As a Protestant Christian with Jewish family, I value the Bible (Tanak (Old Testament) and New Testament) highly. At the same time, I understand the difference between faith and science. I value science highly as an important logical tool and method of analysis.

Half the population has IQs below average. That means that those who are above average in IQ have a duty not to use their superior intellects to deceive the unwary. That's exactly what creationists are doing. To borrow a phrase from the fundamentalists, it's deceit straight from the pit of Hell.

147 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:01:15pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

I've noticed that for a while. They know the people in the church aren't curious enough to check but they aren't preaching to the choir in this case.

Wow.

148 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:01:45pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure Don McLeroy has the ability to develop any new tactics; going by this evidence he can't think to cover his quote-mining tracks.

149 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:02:26pm

re: #145 albusteve

agreed....there doesnt need to be an investigation and a review of policy blah blah...simply call it out and do the right thing....a student would be immediately tossed

I will be writing Gov. Goodhair tomorrow.

150 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:02:31pm

Ernst Mayr needs more koffee too, or Jeremy Mohn does:

It seems that in an enlarged, more complex society, a bigger brain is no longer rewarded by a reproductive advantage. It certainly shows that there is no teleological trend toward a steady bran increase in the hominid lineage.

Pass the Metamucil.

151 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:02:43pm

re: #143 SteveC

Re-butt-al? Plastic surgery?

Hey, I'm not that ugly! :(

I dont spell well under duress...

152 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:03:01pm

re: #136 Thanos

One more thing: Of course under it all he's also a Jew hater.

153 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:03:22pm

Bear in mind - the guy who did this is the HEAD of the Texas Board of Education. The top guy.

And also bear in mind that nearly every Republican politician on the national stage subscribes to some version of creationism. Bobby Jindal. Mike Huckabee. Rick Santorum. Sarah Palin. Sam Brownback. Even Pat (retch) Buchanan. I could go on for a long time.

I guarantee McLeroy is a Republican.

This is a huge problem for the GOP, and definitely one of several reasons why they're losing elections.

154 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:03:50pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

They are banking that people really won't check, betting on laziness. Seems to me to be a fairly decent gamble in many arenas, electing Presidents for instance.

The logical mind says evolution and G-d aren't mutually exclusive. Logic doesn't seem to be in abundance here. I hope that changes, I hope we respect the right to believe in Creationism personally, and I hope Creationists understand that science is for science class, religion is for comparative studies or philosophy .

155 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:04:15pm

re: #142 Hhar

We used to get a lot of that here. You could just paste a sentence or two from a creationist's post into google and find out where the were getting it from. People were posting 3-4 paragraph essays as their own original thoughts.

156 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:04:52pm

I know a lot of lizards don't watch American Idol..At the end they played a version of California Dreaming with a solo guitar and a single woman's vocal.
It was hauntingly beautiful..I need to download this version...I've heard many versions..this was the best..because it was naked..It was emotional and it was real..jeez i love musci

157 NelsFree  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:05:19pm

Hapax Legomenon, all, hapax legomenon to you all.
After reading the last few posts, I've decided to not post on this thread at all. Wait, did I just...?
/"Never Mind"

158 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:05:21pm

re: #156 HoosierHoops

Musci?

159 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:06:10pm

re: #146 quickjustice

Well said. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive. I have reconciled my Christian faith with my belief in evolution. It really wasn't that hard; it comes down to one core belief: my God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Basically, he can do whatever he wants; I happen to believe he used evolution and since I am one of his creations, who am I to challenge what he does.

160 J.S.  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:06:26pm

re: #150 Sharmuta

Ernst Mayr died in 2005.

161 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:06:29pm
162 Spar Kling  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:06:40pm

Anyone who quotes someone else has the moral responsibility to not misrepresent the intent of the passage that it came from. However, in some sense, ALL quotes can be considered out of context. Sometimes people use a shocking statement to gain attention, followed by an explanation of what they meant. Obviously, these sorts of quotes are pounced on by the press.

The mined quote from the "Red Queen" hypothesis doesn't seem so distorted to me, and it still fits quite nicely within the framework of punctuated equilibrium. Perhaps the point that the speaker was trying to make is that the theory of evolution is still evolving, no surprise, and that students should be taught as much. I wouldn't know since his quote was also taken out of context.

To not double-check a quote, especially before presenting it to a large audience, court of law, or public hearing is irresponsible and lazy. The same goes for "facts" and statistic such as the one Nancy Pelosi has been brandishing about the 500 million Americans.

Maybe she was also counting the aborted babies in the U.S. as well . . .

-sk

163 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:07:14pm

re: #158 Sharmuta

Musci?

Musil?
I think we all need more coffee.
: )

164 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:07:39pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

I've noticed that for a while. They know the people in the church aren't curious enough to check but they aren't preaching to the choir in this case.

There seems to be, it's strongest in the larger older denominations a habit of just taking what is preached from the pulpit as gospel.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

This means that every thing preached should be "proven" by study and prayer, and reflection it is true.

Unfortunately many miss this point.

165 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:07:44pm

re: #153 Charles


This is a huge problem for the GOP, and definitely one of several reasons why they're losing elections.

People dont want fanatics running the house. People want a government that wont step on their ability to run a reasonable co-existance without thumping a Theological Doctrine down their throats. GWB did it with the restrictions on stem cells (which now means India is the leader in stem cell implementation and technology), and the current GOP aint offering anything different.

It WILL take a shakeup before the GOP stirs again.

166 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:02pm

re: #149 OldLineTexan

I will be writing Gov. Goodhair tomorrow.

good for you....maybe I'm a simpleton but I'm not stupid and I dont think the citizens of Texas are either...I would think they would be insulted by anything less than dismissal....Eon said it right on

167 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:06pm

Nice musci:
Guitarists Don Ross & Andy McKee
"Dolphins"

from
Stand Up for Real Science
[Link: www.anevolvingcreation.net...]

168 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:07pm

re: #158 Sharmuta

Musci?

I saw that..much to my horror! I busted into the hide a way and shot musci..
Music was last seen fleeing the scene of the crime..

169 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:22pm

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In just for a moment ... to say it ONCE AGAIN ... !

This is par for the course for these mindsets.
Tent preachers, and others, use it.
It's called "proof texting".
It's essentially amoral, in an intellectual sense.
They see NOTHING wrong with it.

/Elmer Gantry, IIRC

"Proof texting" is to come up with an opinion, a moral position, a doctrine and then, afterwards, search the Bible for any verse that can be bent to "prove" the argument "true". The technical term for this is eisegesis.

170 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:33pm

re: #153 Charles

It's going to be a long haul. It's not just the politicians, they are only a symptom. Re-educating the Republican voters is going to take a long time. They've established a culture that has no interest in science and distrusts intellectuals. This is going to take a while.

171 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:36pm

re: #162 Spar Kling

Not the least bit surprised to find you defending this. You've lied repeatedly at LGF in evolution threads.

172 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:08:43pm

re: #160 J.S.

Ernst Mayr died in 2005.

Kansel the Koffee !

173 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:09:57pm

re: #167 jaunte

Reely kool

174 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:10:22pm

re: #146 quickjustice

As a Protestant Christian with Jewish family, I value the Bible (Tanak (Old Testament) and New Testament) highly. At the same time, I understand the difference between faith and science. I value science highly as an important logical tool and method of analysis.

Half the population has IQs below average. That means that those who are above average in IQ have a duty not to use their superior intellects to deceive the unwary. That's exactly what creationists are doing. To borrow a phrase from the fundamentalists, it's deceit straight from the pit of Hell.

Agreed. But I question how many ID/creationist types actually do have above-average IQs. Most seem to be in the middle range, to judge by their "reasoning" (using the classic definition of IQ, the ability to process data).

I can remember when UFO contactees were supposedly "smarter than average", too. Unfortunately, tests of contactees and "abductees" showed that most were of average intelligence but suffered from a combination of fantasy-prone personality syndrome and "boundary deficit", i.e. they had difficulty separating fact from fantasy and/or dreams from reality. The ID/C crowd seems to me to show a similar pattern of reality deficit.

/But as Dennis Miller says, that's just my opinion- I could be wrong.

cheers

eon

175 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:10:32pm

re: #164 JCM

My pastor in Florida used that same scripture to ensure we as his congregation were not taking what he said as gospel truth just because he was a well known and influential pastor. That is one of the best verses in the Bible and I wish all Christians wold take it to heart.

176 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:11:12pm

re: #165 Buster Bunny

The only restriction on stem cell research was government funding. If the private sector wanted to take this on, they had every available opportunity.

177 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:11:14pm

re: #153 Charles

Bear in mind - the guy who did this is the HEAD of the Texas Board of Education. The top guy.

And also bear in mind that nearly every Republican politician on the national stage subscribes to some version of creationism. Bobby Jindal. Mike Huckabee. Rick Santorum. Sarah Palin. Sam Brownback. Even Pat (retch) Buchanan.

I guarantee McLeroy is a Republican.

This is a huge problem for the GOP, and definitely one of several reasons why they're losing elections.

don't remind me....I myself am extremely disappointed of the attempted inclusion of even more politico/religion into the GOP platform and seeit (like many others here) as a tipping point with regard to conservative principle....that said let us pray...

178 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:11:14pm

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

The second greatest trick ... was Jolt Cola.

179 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:11:50pm

re: #162 Spar Kling

Tactics:

Anyone who quotes someone else has the moral responsibility to not misrepresent the intent of the passage that it came from. However, in some sense, ALL quotes can be considered out of context. Sometimes people use a shocking statement to gain attention, followed by an explanation of what they meant. Obviously, these sorts of quotes are pounced on by the press.

Everybody does it

The mined quote from the "Red Queen" hypothesis doesn't seem so distorted to me, and it still fits quite nicely within the framework of punctuated equilibrium. Perhaps the point that the speaker was trying to make is that the theory of evolution is still evolving, no surprise, and that students should be taught as much. I wouldn't know since his quote was also taken out of context.

Everyone has an opinion

To not double-check a quote, especially before presenting it to a large audience, court of law, or public hearing is irresponsible and lazy. The same goes for "facts" and statistic such as the one Nancy Pelosi has been brandishing about the 500 million Americans.

Deflection

Maybe she was also counting the aborted babies in the U.S. as well . . .

Deflection to emotional issue

-sk

180 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:11:51pm

re: #153 Charles

Bear in mind - the guy who did this is the HEAD of the Texas Board of Education. The top guy.

And also bear in mind that nearly every Republican politician on the national stage subscribes to some version of creationism. Bobby Jindal. Mike Huckabee. Rick Santorum. Sarah Palin. Sam Brownback. Even Pat (retch) Buchanan. I could go on for a long time.

I guarantee McLeroy is a Republican.

This is a huge problem for the GOP, and definitely one of several reasons why they're losing elections.

Sir, if it keeps up, here's one Republican who's re-registering as an Independent. Seriously.

cheers

eon

181 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:12:17pm

re: #162 Spar Kling

The only problem with your logi is that students are taught that the theory of evolution is evolving and guess what? It's becoming stronger every day through new discoveries that validate it, genetic breakthroughs in tracing phylogenetic trees and even human migrations.

It's disingenuous to quote mine, and it's disingenuous to imply that the theory never gets modified, or added to.

182 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:12:27pm

re: #180 eon

Mi two.

183 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:12:38pm
184 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:12:53pm

re: #115 buzzsawmonkey

When president held accountable, website feel sad.

Did you see VDH's column today?
The Impending Obama Meltdown.
Required reading.

185 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:12:56pm

re: #178 Buster Bunny

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

The second greatest trick ... was Jolt Cola.

LOL! Can I quote you? Please?

186 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:12:58pm

re: #163 notutopia

Musil?
I think we all need more coffee.
: )

I found a new way to get my coffee.

187 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:13:17pm

re: #182 Sharmuta

Mi two.

me three

188 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:13:26pm

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey
Very well said.

189 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:13:50pm

re: #182 Sharmuta

Not me. I have roots with this party. I've identified with this party. I won't give my party up - I will work my tail off to have my party come back - it can happen, it takes work. I'm in, I know you aren't afraid of taking things on. We build that momentum, we keep it up.

190 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:14:32pm

re: #153 Charles

And also bear in mind that nearly every Republican politician on the national stage subscribes to some version of creationism.

To the extent that it's that politician's personal belief, and he or she isn't trying to impose it either overtly or stealthily via the apparatus of state, I don't care much.

191 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:15:10pm

re: #166 albusteve

good for you....maybe I'm a simpleton but I'm not stupid and I dont think the citizens of Texas are either...I would think they would be insulted by anything less than dismissal....Eon said it right on

I don't want a thief and a liar in any office in the State. This person committed a Bellisles and has no business near a student or State money. Folks like him should be removed, no matter what, all over the State.

Now the odds are low of ever accomplishing that, because most thieves and liars are more subtle (smarter).

But when someone is so blatant ... well, it's like Blagojevich. You have to do something about it, even if it's just out of embarrassment.

192 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:15:14pm

re: #178 Buster Bunny

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

The second greatest trick ... was Jolt Cola.

LOL...what about New Coke?

193 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:15:15pm

re: #159 Jetpilot1101

Well said. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive. I have reconciled my Christian faith with my belief in evolution. It really wasn't that hard; it comes down to one core belief: my God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Basically, he can do whatever he wants; I happen to believe he used evolution and since I am one of his creations, who am I to challenge what he does.

To me, evolution represents the brilliance of the Creator.

194 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:15:48pm

It's a false appeal to authority that Discovery Institute does not have. Just think, if DI actually spent their millions on science and research instead of political subterfuge and hysteria they might be quoted by other scientists instead.

Science is too hard for the less than August "scientists" (whores) at discovery institute.

195 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:15:51pm

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

The intentional destruction of the integrity of quoted material may appear merely to be a tactic in the larger objective of advancing creationism as science. It is that, surely--but it is more.

As several posters have stated above, intentionally distorting material quoted in the defense/advancement of one's cause may be taken as showing that the cause cannot stand alone on its own merits; at the very least, it shows an awareness that the authorities in the relevant area are not favorable to it.

However, the alteration or fabrication of allegedly authoritative material also shows a fundamental contempt for knowledge itself, for it plays havoc with the concept of objective truth, and with the convention agreed upon among people of good will and intellectual integrity that ideas, and words, be judged on their own merits, even in the face of disagreement. Thus, while intelligent design does not stand the test of science, the falsification of supporting quotes goes beyond a mere attack on scientific inquiry, and strikes at the root of knowledge in all fields.

sometimes your posts bum me out....reality is being destroyed

196 freetoken  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:16:10pm

re: #162 Spar Kling


You're missing a very important idea.

Science is built by adding knowledge to those who went previously, or by correcting their mistakes. In this method, the scientific method, one's viability of doing proper science is built upon the veracity of one's ability to reference previous work, and upon the integrity of the one doing the research.

Here we have in Texas the head of the board overlooking the teaching of science and scientific method... whose very methods are the antithesis of good science.



Maybe she was also counting the aborted babies in the U.S. as well . . .

As with AGW or any other subject around which one can find various emotionally driven debaters, throwing out abortion in the midst of a discussion on evolution is simply a debating tactic.

197 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:16:11pm

re: #184 Bobblehead

Excellent article!

198 Scion9  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:16:14pm

re: #154 ArmyWife

While some Biblical literalists know the definition of science and accept that their beliefs do not conform to that definition, some outright reject the very notion of inquiring into the unknown and not accepting the Bible as illuminating any mysteries. That everything should pass through a theological lens that posits the truth of scripture before delving into anything else. The entire scientific process does not fit through this lens, since it demands either evidence for a theory, or a method of falsifying a hypothesis. Either the existence of a God, or an "Intelligent Designer" doesn't meet the criteria and a great many literalists can't stand that, so they rail against the system.

It is not logical. But like I posted up thread, another literalist religion, Islam, rails against logic itself on the exact same grounds. Logic doesn't first cross-check the Qu'ran before reaching any conclusions.

199 Attaboid  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:17:31pm

re: #100 Teacake!

really quick OT question - does anyone know if Vista has an alarm clock feature? IF not, are there any on line?My clock broke.

Try this...

200 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:17:35pm

Notice how "Spar Kling" casually throws in the "aborted babies" line.

Not accidental.

201 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:17:48pm

re: #185 HoosierHoops

LOL! Can I quote you? Please?

Sure ... no problem.

202 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:18:02pm

re: #191 OldLineTexan

I don't want a thief and a liar in any office in the State. This person committed a Bellisles and has no business near a student or State money. Folks like him should be removed, no matter what, all over the State.

Now the odds are low of ever accomplishing that, because most thieves and liars are more subtle (smarter).

But when someone is so blatant ... well, it's like Blagojevich. You have to do something about it, even if it's just out of embarrassment.

you have a mission then...it will be interesting to see how it turns...it's getting pretty fundamental here..the distinct difference between black and white....

203 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:18:39pm

re: #193 Bobblehead

To me, evolution represents the brilliance of the Creator.

I often ask on these threads.
You believe in the Creator, do you believe in His creation?

204 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:18:47pm
205 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:18:59pm

re: #149 OldLineTexan

I will be writing Gov. Goodhair tomorrow.

I'll be joining you in writing to Gov. Perry.
I'm going to include a link to this article. I'm going to express my dissent of having a fraud who plagiarizes and quote mines others work to purposefully misrepresent his political and religious position on creationism, needs to be removed as Head of The Texas School Board. He has lost his integrity to hold the position and sit on any ruling to be made regarding religious inclusions or exclusions into the textbooks or the school system curriculum.
[Link: www.anevolvingcreation.net...]
[Link: www.anevolvingcreation.net...]

206 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:19:36pm

re: #200 Charles

Notice how "Spar Kling" casually throws in the "aborted babies" line.

Not accidental.

I prefer, LOOK A UFO!

It's not as obvious.

207 Haverwilde  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:20:27pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

May I suggest a light smooth cup of Kona? The best coffee is the world..

Blech! I hate kona!
Now a cup of Seattles Best French roast, I'm ready.

208 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:20:55pm

re: #189 ArmyWife

Not me. I have roots with this party. I've identified with this party. I won't give my party up - I will work my tail off to have my party come back - it can happen, it takes work. I'm in, I know you aren't afraid of taking things on. We build that momentum, we keep it up.

I know you know what I'm going to say is true..
The future of the GOP is emerging young Talent that not only adhere to our traditions but have vision to see our future..We have some time right now to develop leaders.
Heck.. a few months ago..I'd never even heard of Palin...

209 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:20:58pm

re: #200 Charles

Notice how "Spar Kling" casually throws in the "aborted babies" line.

Not accidental.

He also seems to have thrown his opinion into the ring and then bailed. I was hoping for more brilliant observations.

/

210 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:21:08pm

re: #202 albusteve

you have a mission then...it will be interesting to see how it turns...it's getting pretty fundamental here..the distinct difference between black and white....

I am preparing the most feared weapon known to Man the UN...

The strongly-worded letter!

/cue musci

211 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:21:35pm

re: #200 Charles

Notice how "Spar Kling" casually throws in the "aborted babies" line.

Not accidental.

Yeah, he's from the Randall Terry wing.

212 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:22:15pm

re: #179 jaunte

Excellent analysis.

213 J.S.  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:22:43pm

One could also note that in any form of debate, not only is the honest usage of quotations required, but (perhaps as important?) a debater must accurately understand the opponent's position...and to be able to clearly enunciate the opponent's points. Being capable of understanding the opponent is essential to any true, legitimate argument -- it should not be about distorting the opponents views (I have found this tactic of distorting viewpoints so as to make the opposing side appear silly, weak and indefensible, so as to have an argument made easier to attack -- classic straw man argumentation -- to be so rampant that I've virtually given up even bothering correcting the abuses...)

214 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:22:45pm

re: #189 ArmyWife

Not me. I have roots with this party. I've identified with this party. I won't give my party up - I will work my tail off to have my party come back - it can happen, it takes work. I'm in, I know you aren't afraid of taking things on. We build that momentum, we keep it up.

And how well has your party been listening to you the last 8 years?

215 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:23:07pm

re: #206 JCM

I prefer, LOOK A UFO!

It's not as obvious.

"UFO" sets the standard too high. "Squirrel" works for me.

216 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:23:14pm

re: #180 eon

Sir, if it keeps up, here's one Republican who's re-registering as an Independent. Seriously.

cheers

eon

me three eon.

217 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:23:37pm

OT

Obama's #2 man may not have tax problems, but he has baggage!

Obama names “most fined” Washington State bureaucrat to HUD

A court levied the biggest fine for illegal record withholding against Sims in Washington State history — and that record hasn’t finished yet:
218 jaunte  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:24:24pm

re: #212 MandyManners

Thanks. It's the 'I'm a slow typist' version.

219 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:24:37pm

re: #215 Occasional Reader

"UFO" sets the standard too high. "Squirrel" works for me.

I always use

LOOK AT THE BALLS ON THAT MONKEY!

220 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:24:53pm

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

The intentional destruction of the integrity of quoted material may appear merely to be a tactic in the larger objective of advancing creationism as science. It is that, surely--but it is more.

As several posters have stated above, intentionally distorting material quoted in the defense/advancement of one's cause may be taken as showing that the cause cannot stand alone on its own merits; at the very least, it shows an awareness that the authorities in the relevant area are not favorable to it.

However, the alteration or fabrication of allegedly authoritative material also shows a fundamental contempt for knowledge itself, for it plays havoc with the concept of objective truth, and with the convention agreed upon among people of good will and intellectual integrity that ideas, and words, be judged on their own merits, even in the face of disagreement. Thus, while intelligent design does not stand the test of science, the falsification of supporting quotes goes beyond a mere attack on scientific inquiry, and strikes at the root of knowledge in all fields.

Do the climate change kooks do this?

221 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:24:57pm

re: #217 JCM

OT

Obama's #2 man may not have tax problems, but he has baggage!

Obama names “most fined” Washington State bureaucrat to HUD

buzzsawmonkey will chime in with a "He's So Fined" variation at any moment.

222 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:25:05pm

re: #219 OldLineTexan

I always use

LOOK AT THE BALLS ON THAT MONKEY!

Subtlety is KEY, IMO.

223 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:25:08pm

re: #217 JCM

OT

Obama's #2 man may not have tax problems, but he has baggage!

Obama names “most fined” Washington State bureaucrat to HUD

This administration is really a three ring circus with Obungle as the ringleader. You can't make this stuff up.

224 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:25:11pm

re: #204 buzzsawmonkey

I think it is important to describe reality as clearly as possible.

for us...sometimes I think we are losing the world wide battle over common sense...I resent it when people use overblown rhetoric and flowery verbage to make it seem like I dont understand some finer point...it's a tactic to reduce me to the irrelevent...it wont work

225 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:25:17pm

re: #162 Spar Kling

Asshole.

226 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:25:34pm

re: #203 JCM

I often ask on these threads.
You believe in the Creator, do you believe in His creation?

Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.

227 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:25:56pm

re: #195 albusteve

sometimes your posts bum me out....reality is being destroyed

No, it's not. People are fighting back.

228 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:26:01pm

re: #11 Charles

...I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party...


ha! got him! look look

229 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:26:07pm

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων·
φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.
Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα
ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα.
Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα.
Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.
Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός.
Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

230 quickjustice  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:26:21pm

re: #153 Charles

Their personal beliefs don't bother me as much as their efforts to impose them on everyone else through use of political power. That why I view Jindall very negatively, but Palin, not so much.

This is really about temporal power, not faith. Creationists who try to impose their religious beliefs on others through use of political power have succumbed to the temptation of temporal power.

231 kansas  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:26:26pm

re: #165 Buster Bunny

People dont want fanatics running the house. People want a government that wont step on their ability to run a reasonable co-existance without thumping a Theological Doctrine down their throats. GWB did it with the restrictions on stem cells (which now means India is the leader in stem cell implementation and technology), and the current GOP aint offering anything different.

It WILL take a shakeup before the GOP stirs again.

After a few more weeks of Obama, religious fanatics are gonna look good.

232 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:26:29pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Do the climate change kooks do this?

Please, dont bring the goracle into this, I cant handle it..........

233 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:26:53pm

Greek html has problems...

234 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:27:05pm

re: #229 David IV of Georgia


Succinct and to the point.

235 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:27:19pm

re: #228 spacejesus

Spacejesus has entered the building.

236 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:27:21pm

re: #217 JCM

OT

Obama's #2 man may not have tax problems, but he has baggage!

Obama names “most fined” Washington State bureaucrat to HUD

One can only assume that The One wants something- or a lot of somethings- in HUD's records kept very much out of the public's eye. So, he picks someone with ... prior experience. (rimshot)

cheers

eon

237 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:27:33pm

re: #227 MandyManners

No, it's not. People are fighting back.

I'm a common man...I won't give up

238 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:27:47pm
239 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:27:48pm

re: #219 OldLineTexan

I always use

LOOK AT THE BALLS ON THAT MONKEY!

HEY LOOK AT THAT......

240 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:00pm

re: #232 A Kiwi Infidel

Please, dont bring the goracle into this, I cant handle it..........

Science is being attacked on two fronts.

241 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:03pm
242 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:15pm

re: #190 Occasional Reader

To the extent that it's that politician's personal belief, and he or she isn't trying to impose it either overtly or stealthily via the apparatus of state, I don't care much.

Well, it certainly doesn't help her fight the image that she isn't too bright. He gaff about fruit fly studies being included into a bill of funding autism research shows that she hasn't the slightest idea about science and she probably isn't even curious. I haven't taken a science course since 12th grade and even I know fruit flies are used in studies on genetics.
Science is becoming increasingly important and our leaders need to be able to demonstrate a minimal amount of knowledge.

243 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:19pm

re: #235 Jetpilot1101

Spacejesus has entered the building.


OMG, -208

(sigh)

244 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:25pm

re: #237 albusteve

I'm a common man...I won't give up

It's folks like us who make differences.

245 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Do the climate change kooks do this?

Is the sky blue when it's not raining cats n' dogs?

Google "Mann Hockey Stick".

cheers

eon

246 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #203 JCM

I often ask on these threads.
You believe in the Creator, do you believe in His creation?

Perhaps Latin will do better:

Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
factórem cæli et terræ,
visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
Lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
passus, et sepúltus est,
et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
qui ex Patre procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

247 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #240 MandyManners

Science is being attacked on two fronts.


Then I wish he would do up his fly

248 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:29:00pm

re: #229 David IV of Georgia

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστό&# x03BD;, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογε&# x03BD;ῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθ&# x03AD;ντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων&m iddot;
φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθιν&# x1F78;ν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθιν&# x03BF;ῦ, γεννηθ&# x03AD;ντα οὐ ποιηθέ&# x03BD;τα, ὁμοούσ&# x03B9;ον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετ&# x03BF;.
Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπ&# x03BF;υς καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέρ&# x03B1;ν σωτηρί&# x03B1;ν κατελθ&# x03CC;ντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶ&# x03BD; καὶ σαρκωθ&# x03AD;ντα
ἐκ Πνεύμα&# x03C4;ος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθέν&# x03BF;υ καὶ ἐνανθρ&# x03C9;πήσαν&#x0 3C4;α.
Σταυρω&# x03B8;έντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίο&# x03C5; Πιλάτο&# x03C5;, καὶ παθόντ&# x03B1; καὶ ταφέντ&# x03B1;.
Καὶ ἀναστά&# x03BD;τα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.
Καὶ ἀνελθό&# x03BD;τα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανο&# x1F7A;ς καὶ καθεζό&# x03BC;ενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός.
Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμε&# x03BD;ον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρού&# x03C2;, οὗ τῆς βασιλε&# x03AF;ας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

That's an outrageous accusation. OldLineTexan doesn't even own a black lace "babydoll".

249 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:29:03pm

re: #238 buzzsawmonkey

Good question.

I think so--in that they swept the Medieval Warm Period under the rug, as well as other data--but I have not been accumulating a store of evidence of their distortions. Others here are much more up on that.

I wish I had the time and smarts to compare the two.

250 quickjustice  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:29:20pm

re: #229 David IV of Georgia

I'll bite: translation, please!

251 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:29:27pm
252 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:29:37pm

re: #214 screaming_eagle

Michael Steele. It's beginning to listen. The job isn't done, not even close. We build on this, and I'll do so by staying very involved in my state's RNC. I'll stay involved in the party itself. Might shock you, but I'm not shy or quiet ;) ! I put my money where my mouth is, I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking. I am just one person, mind you, but a group of "just one person" starts to get loud.

253 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:00pm

re: #239 JCM

HEY LOOK AT THAT......



Translation:
Guy 1: Hey, look at that!
Guy 2: Wow, wouldn't I love to be doing that!
Guy 1: Go ahead and try ... she looks like a friendly donkey.

254 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:08pm

re: #248 Occasional Reader

That's an outrageous accusation. OldLineTexan doesn't even own a black lace "babydoll".

Translate that again. It's a French Maid outfit.

255 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:11pm

re: #248 Occasional Reader

That's an outrageous accusation. OldLineTexan doesn't even own a black lace "babydoll".

drink!

256 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:14pm

re: #252 ArmyWife

Michael Steele. It's beginning to listen. The job isn't done, not even close. We build on this, and I'll do so by staying very involved in my state's RNC. I'll stay involved in the party itself. Might shock you, but I'm not shy or quiet ;) ! I put my money where my mouth is, I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking. I am just one person, mind you, but a group of "just one person" starts to get loud.

An Army of One.

257 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:26pm

re: #193 Bobblehead

To me, evolution represents the brilliance of the Creator.

As mentioned before ad nauseam, I actually find the idea of an "omnipotent" creator, and evolution, a little hard to reconcile.

258 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:32pm

re: #239 JCM

That was tail! A big swishy tail!

259 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:36pm

Gotta' quiz The Kid for his science test tomorrow. bbl

260 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:40pm

re: #228 spacejesus

ha! got him! look look

I've been quote-mined.

261 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:41pm

re: #246 David IV of Georgia

Perhaps Latin will do better:

Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
factórem cæli et terræ,
visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
Lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
passus, et sepúltus est,
et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
qui ex Patre procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made: who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the heavens, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man: crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried; and he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; and he ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and again he will come with glory to judge the living and the dead; of whose kingdom there shall be no end: and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and the giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is adored and glorified; who spoke by the prophets: and one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

262 quickjustice  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:30:58pm

re: #246 David IV of Georgia

Christian Confession of Faith. Appropriate to that sphere of theology.

263 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:31:22pm

re: #257 Occasional Reader

As mentioned before ad nauseam, I actually find the idea of an "omnipotent" creator, and evolution, a little hard to reconcile.

Why is that?

264 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:01pm

re: #252 ArmyWife

How many cliches fit in one post?

265 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:07pm

re: #253 OldLineTexan

Translation:
Guy 1: Hey, look at that!
Guy 2: Wow, wouldn't I love to be doing that!
Guy 1: Go ahead and try ... she looks like a friendly donkey.

Look closely..... those donkey's are a little light in the hoof if you know what I mean. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

266 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:33pm

re: #248 Occasional Reader

That's an outrageous accusation. OldLineTexan doesn't even own a black lace "babydoll".

You notice he doesn't deny the story of him and the Brittany Spears thing in Vegas..What a dog!

267 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:37pm

re: #186 JCM

I found a new way to get my coffee.

Looks yummy. I love chocolate covered coffee beans as an alternative to drinking it.

268 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:41pm
269 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:53pm

re: #248 Occasional Reader

That's an outrageous accusation. OldLineTexan doesn't even own a black lace "babydoll".

Damned straight.

I rent formal wear.

270 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:32:59pm

re: #250 quickjustice

I'll bite: translation, please!

It is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 325/381.

"I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. of all that is visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten of the Father".... and so on.

271 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:33:28pm

I don't suppose anyone here has read The Republican War on Science . Maybe I'll pick it up.

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:34:08pm

re: #192 jorline

LOL...what about New Coke?

New Coke we did to ourselves. There's a Neil Gaiman novel--Good Omens--in which one of the main characters is a demon. He mentions at one point that he won an award for the Spanish Inquisition, which he had nothing to do with, which was the point at which he realized that you don't need to waste your time with tempting--human beings will do incredibly horrible things to one another without prompting.

Jolt, however--I'm willing to believe that was Satanic in origin.

273 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:34:14pm

re: #265 JCM

Look closely..... those donkey's are a little light in the hoof if you know what I mean. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

I'm sorry ... as soon as "Muskrat Love" started to play in my head, I turned the video off ... so I did not see that both donkeys had Bidens ...

274 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:34:17pm

re: #260 Charles

I've been quote-mined.


give it up, you're done. you'll never work in this town again

275 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:34:20pm

re: #263 Jetpilot1101

Why is that?

Evolution is a "process". What does an omnipotent being need with a "process"? Especially one that results in the extinction of, what is it, 99% of all species that ever lived.

Of course, I have no god in this fight (etc.).

276 Basho  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:34:27pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Do the climate change kooks do this?

Yes:
[Link: frankbi.wordpress.com...]

277 eon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:34:41pm

Well, my eyes are starting to droop and cross, so it's time for bed.

Good night, Lizards.

Sleep tight.

cheers

eon

278 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:35:27pm

re: #267 notutopia

Looks yummy. I love chocolate covered coffee beans as an alternative to drinking it.

It's very good, smooth tasting not dark or heavy at all. Creamy with just a hint of coffee.

279 vxbush  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:35:58pm

re: #250 quickjustice

I'll bite: translation, please!

I can do part of it without looking it up.....

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστό&a mp;# x03BD;, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογε&a mp;# x03BD;ῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθ&a mp;# x03AD;ντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων&a mp;m iddot;

And into [ ] [the] Lord Jesus Christ [...] the son of God, the [only-begotten]...
the Father born....all the ages.....

But my Greek is rusty.

280 freetoken  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:36:07pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

I don't suppose anyone here has read The Republican War on Science . Maybe I'll pick it up.

No, but I have at times read his blog and seen him on diavlogs such as this one.

281 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:36:25pm

re: #252 ArmyWife

It's not that I don't agree with you but they need reminded that the party needs us more than we need the party.

282 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:36:28pm

re: #261 JCM

Your translation has two things that the text above and the text agreed to at the Second Ecumenical Council did not:

God of God,

and the Son

283 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:36:39pm

OT:

For those who have been following the SSPX holocaust denier flap it's not well know but there's a US division....

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

This group was in the news most recently with several anti Prop 8 ads.

284 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:37:27pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

I don't suppose anyone here has read The Republican War on Science . Maybe I'll pick it up.

I just bought it for my Kindle, and the resulting "suggestions" page included a whole bunch of moonbats, including Naomi Klein.

Man, am I ever stuck in the middle on this one.

285 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:37:27pm

re: #275 Occasional Reader

Evolution is a "process". What does an omnipotent being need with a "process"? Especially one that results in the extinction of, what is it, 99% of all species that ever lived.

Of course, I have no god in this fight (etc.).

Really?

Ishtar will be displeased.

286 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:37:42pm

re: #281 screaming_eagle

Ok - so do it, if you aren't already.

287 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:38:06pm

Good evening, all...

Charles, with all due respect:

This dishonest creationist tactic is so common that it has a name: “quote mining.”

That suggests that quote mining was invented (created? heh) by creationists...

/damn quote miners... ;)

288 J.S.  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:38:25pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

Nope. It's a journalist. (translation -- expect to be lied to). With respect to global warming, science issues, etc, I prefer to read articles and texts written by scientists, etc.

289 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:38:26pm

re: #284 Charles

Ouch.

/Of course, you might have suspected it was just the tiniest bit partisan from the title.

290 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:38:26pm

Gotta switch laundry. BRB.

291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:38:35pm

Ninja episode on Mythbusters. Love this damn show.

292 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:38:46pm

re: #282 David IV of Georgia

Your translation has two things that the text above and the text agreed to at the Second Ecumenical Council did not:

That's what I get for a quick and dirty approach....

293 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:39:05pm

re: #279 vxbush

I can do part of it without looking it up.....

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστό&a mp;# x03BD;, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογε&a mp;# x03BD;ῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθ&a mp;# x03AD;ντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων&a mp;m iddot;

And into [ ] [the] Lord Jesus Christ [...] the son of God, the [only-begotten]...
the Father born....all the ages.....

But my Greek is rusty.

Hey you! Congrads today! Good job you geek!
That translation is like a creepy scene from the sixth sense....:)

294 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:39:34pm

I think most politicians are fear driven. Don't want to lose this voting block or that. Politically active Evangelicals have effectively co-opted a lot of these people in my opinion. When I see a list of who's who in the Republican party, I wonder are these people nuts, do they believe this crap, or are they just all bred to the standard (dog analogy)? All three possibilities are dis-qualifiers, for sure. Charles is right, barring a fundamental (pun?) change in approach, or the unexpected arrival of some rational actor (hello, ghost of Ron?) not yet on the radar, traditional liberalism (R) is doomed to fail.

Religion and politics make bad bed fellows. But someone is going to have to actually stand up and say just that, or we continue down the way of the new national Socialist party (D) - for as far as I can see.

295 BatGuano  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:39:43pm

re: #270 David IV of Georgia

It's Istanbul, not Constantinople

296 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:39:43pm

re: #275 Occasional Reader

Evolution is a "process". What does an omnipotent being need with a "process"? Especially one that results in the extinction of, what is it, 99% of all species that ever lived.

Of course, I have no god in this fight (etc.).

Maybe his use of the process and our discovering of that process is supposed to point us to Him. Maybe He knew that humans would naturally evolve to be incredibly curious creatures and needed something to keep them occupied. I don't know about you but life as a scientist would be pretty boring if there was overwhelming evidence that the earth was 6000 years old and was created in 6 days. Finally, I really believe He wanted belief in Him to be a choice, not a forced decision. For me, the examination of science including evolution points to the creativity and the intelligence of God.

297 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:40:07pm

re: #289 OldLineTexan

Ouch.

/Of course, you might have suspected it was just the tiniest bit partisan from the title.

I read stuff from both sides of the aisle, and always have. But it seems that lately, the balance of moonbatedness is tipping toward the right.

298 vxbush  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:40:10pm

re: #293 HoosierHoops

Hey you! Congrads today! Good job you geek!
That translation is like a creepy scene from the sixth sense....:)

Hey, I've forgotten most of my Greek grammar and nouns, okay? Give me a break. Lexicons are my lifeblood, as are my first-year Greek text and a second great lexicon that helps me figure out the tense, case, etc. for each word.

299 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:40:15pm

re: #285 OldLineTexan

Really?

Ishtar will be displeased.

Any goddess who would allow her name to be lent to that crappy movie, without smiting everyone involved, is no goddess of mine.

300 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:40:59pm

re: #291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ninja episode on Mythbusters. Love this damn show.

They are the only kind of 'splodeydopes I approve of.

301 mattm  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:41:06pm

OT

I just listened to Ralph Nader give a speech, apparently the US does not face a major threat that requires a major military force, and "terrorism" is overrated. I guess he missed 9/11 and three thousand American murdered in one day.

302 freetoken  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:41:47pm

re: #284 Charles

Man, am I ever stuck in the middle on this one.

Moonbats on the left of me,
Atavists on the right of me,
What is a lizard to do?

303 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:41:52pm

re: #299 Occasional Reader

Any goddess who would allow her name to be lent to that crappy movie, without smiting everyone involved, is no goddess of mine.

Infidel! All were smitten with a great smiting until they were completely smote!

304 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:42:20pm

re: #297 Charles

I read stuff from both sides of the aisle, and always have. But it seems that lately, the balance of moonbatedness is tipping toward the right.

Bad sign. Very bad sign.

305 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:42:28pm
306 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:42:32pm

re: #296 Jetpilot1101

Maybe his use of the process and our discovering of that process is supposed to point us to Him.

If he exists, and is omnipotent/omniscient, he would (by definition) have an infinite number of ways of accomplishing that goal. Having 99% of living species die off seems like an odd choice to make.

307 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:43:17pm

re: #284 Charles

I just bought it for my Kindle, and the resulting "suggestions" page included a whole bunch of moonbats, including Naomi Klein.

Man, am I ever stuck in the middle on this one.

I read Taliban propaganda with regularity, while it's piled with mountains of exagerations and lies, there are small grains of truth to be found and pointers to other sources. I look at it as knowing your enemy.

308 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:43:18pm

re: #299 Occasional Reader

Any goddess who would allow her name to be lent to that crappy movie, without smiting everyone involved, is no goddess of mine.

Ahhh, but it is her revenge for disbelief.

309 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:43:22pm

re: #298 vxbush

Hey, I've forgotten most of my Greek grammar and nouns, okay? Give me a break. Lexicons are my lifeblood, as are my first-year Greek text and a second great lexicon that helps me figure out the tense, case, etc. for each word.

*wink* I was just teasing you...
I know 4 greek words and love the food..
:)

310 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:44:00pm
311 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:44:00pm

re: #275 Occasional Reader

Evolution is a "process". What does an omnipotent being need with a "process"? Especially one that results in the extinction of, what is it, 99% of all species that ever lived.

Of course, I have no god in this fight (etc.).

According to most Christians, extinction and death were not part of the original creation, but are consequences of man choosing to live apart from God, who is the source of all life.

If God was able to create this world in all its diversity, He would find it a simple task to create a world that produces new and different forms of life. Why not create a world that is continually changing?

312 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:45:47pm

re: #311 David IV of Georgia

According to most Christians, extinction and death were not part of the original creation, but are consequences of man choosing to live apart from God, who is the source of all life.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that argument, but I also have a little trouble with the idea of "T. Rex died for our sins".

313 Scion9  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:46:02pm

Charles is right too that this does in fact cost the GOP. I see it first hand in my home State. Independents and moderate Dems that might go Republican in swing districts for Congress and national elections are very strong on the Establishment Clause (and the Constitution in general). Any hint of a collusion between the government and religious institutions is anathema to a huge amount of the electorate.

Outside of the more esoteric arguments rebutting it, Intelligent Design in science classes above all is Unconstitutional.

Republicans have the ability to walk the high road in reforming education, and upholding the Constitution in one shot. Instead they are engaging in the same kind of Legal Realist interpretations of the Constitution as the Dems use to make their point, as well as a lot of tu quoque finger pointing in regards to the state of public education.

The Dems have already ceded the high road to Republicans in the vastly more popular Formalist/Constructionalist understanding of the Constitution among the electorate, and on the 2nd Amendment. Republicans are only a few steps away from making the claim of being the defenders of the Constitution, as the Dems are no longer even hiding their desire to subvert the core tenets of the document. If the Republicans could force this issue with the Dems it would be a sure fire way to at least make Independents and moderate Dems to open their ears and minds to the party.

But before they can point their fingers at anyone they need to stop their own attempts to wipe their ass with the Constitution.

314 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:46:10pm

re: #306 Occasional Reader

If he exists, and is omnipotent/omniscient, he would (by definition) have an infinite number of ways of accomplishing that goal. Having 99% of living species die off seems like an odd choice to make.

It does seem like an odd choice but I have to believe he has his reasons. I for one would not want a T-rex wandering around my neighborhood. Plus, I don't think that species like humans and dinosaurs could have peacefully coexisted which could explain why He chose to let them die off.

315 vxbush  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:47:22pm

re: #309 HoosierHoops

*wink* I was just teasing you...
I know 4 greek words and love the food..
:)

I know. I'm just sure that I screwed one word up, so I'm making excuses where none are needed. And now, I have some things to do before I crawl into bed, exhausted.

Good night, everyone. Stay scaly.

316 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:47:32pm

re: #312 Occasional Reader

Yeah, I'm familiar with that argument, but I also have a little trouble with the idea of "T. Rex died for our sins".

Wasn't it I Rex?

/been so long I can't remember...

317 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:47:40pm

re: #297 Charles

I read stuff from both sides of the aisle, and always have. But it seems that lately, the balance of moonbatedness is tipping toward the right.

Charles - you have many memes to your credit.

What would be a good name for a right wing moonbat. The Ron Paul / DI Creationist / Gold standard / Pat Buchanan Anti-Semite kind-o-moonbat?

You can't even use "paleo" since they tend to be young earthers so "paleo" and all the science behind it is all part of God's Big Headfake®

318 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:48:13pm

re: #314 Jetpilot1101

Plus, I don't think that species like humans and dinosaurs could have peacefully coexisted which could explain why He chose to let them die off.

Er... so he created them for the express purpose of wiping them out?

Sorry, but all the arguments that head in this direction make God start to sound like a kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

319 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:48:34pm

Moer on the Pelosi, Obama rift in the making.

320 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:48:54pm

re: #316 christheprofessor

Wasn't it I Rex?

/been so long I can't remember...

Iesus Nazarenus T. Rex Iudeorum

321 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:49:07pm

re: #312 Occasional Reader

Yeah, I'm familiar with that argument, but I also have a little trouble with the idea of "T. Rex died for our sins".

It was more like Adam said, "hey hold my beer, watch this!" Moment with lots of bad shit that followed.

322 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:49:30pm

re: #317 karmic_inquisitor

We used to call them Birchers.

323 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:49:30pm

Can't we come up with another name for Right Moonbats? Right Wing Nutjobs? C'mon, it was on JibJab!

324 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:49:37pm

re: #305 taxfreekiller

Harry Reid and your nuke power.
oops,,, No nuke Power.

Current the power companies are being paid huge amounts of our tax money to store the nuke waste in their insecure over loaded on site temporary storage. This from the power company lobby paying Reid's re-election money.

Reid for his payment of 30 gold shekels , has now in the last bit cut the funding for the new sub-contractor managing Yucca Mountain Nuke Facility from::::
$200,000,000.00

to

$5,000,000.00

Develop that America, the environmental wackos vote this old fool crook into office and he responds by taking $$ and allowing the very most dangerous material on earth to be stored in temporary sites unfit for the material, and this via the votes of loons who think they are voting for a safe planet, NOT.

Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are going to get us all killed.

I'm still trying to figure out what these geniuses plan to use to produce electricity to charge all those electric cars they want Detroit to build.

Unicorn farts?

325 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:50:10pm

re: #306 Occasional Reader

If he exists, and is omnipotent/omniscient, he would (by definition) have an infinite number of ways of accomplishing that goal. Having 99% of living species die off seems like an odd choice to make.


He is the Creator and, as such, can do whatever He likes with His creation. This is why it is particularly worrying when you read in Revelation 21 1 that the old earth and the old heaven are done away with, to be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth. Doesnt bare contemplating.

326 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:50:43pm

re: #320 Occasional Reader

Iesus Nazarenus T. Rex Iudeorum

Oy!

327 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:51:08pm

re: #321 JCM

It was more like Adam said, "hey hold my beer, watch this!" Moment with lots of bad shit that followed.

Adam Billy Joe Jim Bob?

328 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:51:15pm

re: #295 BatGuano

It's Istanbul, not Constantinople

Istanbul (Εις την πολεις) is Greek and merely means Into the city. Which city? Constantinople.

The name change only happened in 1930.

329 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:52:13pm

re: #325 A Kiwi Infidel

He is the Creator and, as such, can do whatever He likes with His creation. This is why it is particularly worrying when you read in Revelation 21 1 that the old earth and the old heaven are done away with, to be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth. Doesnt bare contemplating.

Well, see my comment above. If God really is like a kid playing with an ant farm and a magnifying glass, why the heck should I worship him, other than out of pure terror?

330 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:52:34pm

re: #246 David IV of Georgia

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
qui ex Patre procédit.

Didn't you forget something?

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.

You tryin' to start a schism? ;^0

331 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:52:37pm
332 SFGoth  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:52:41pm

LOL, I thought it said "Van Halen's theory...." Van Halen? I'm gettin' old.

333 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:52:47pm

re: #318 Occasional Reader

Er... so he created them for the express purpose of wiping them out?

Sorry, but all the arguments that head in this direction make God start to sound like a kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

I think he created them/evolved them and then allowed them to die off so later on we would have something to study and explore. His ultimate goal was humanity. Again, with no fossil record, some science would be mighty boring. I can't speak for God nor do I know why he chooses to do what he does. A lot of it I take on faith. I understand where you might have a tough time reconciling the two ideas, for me it's pretty easy.

334 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:54:31pm

Excusing the roughness of the original material .. here is a pseudo translation of Davids Greek stuff. Please excuse the untranslateable bits.

And in a master Jesus Christ & # x03BD;, Yion him of God him monoge & # x03BD; or ex born of the Father & # x03AD; products especially the centuries & m iddot; light by light, true God & # x1F78; n a true God & # x03BF; Y, born & # x03AD; be used th s & # x03BD; them omoous & # x03B9; being τῷ Patra, by me everything egenet & # x03BF;. In by us of man & # x03BF; muscle through our his & # x03B1; salvation n & # x03B1; descend n & # x03CC; products of sky & # x03BD; he sarkoth & # x03AD; products by Spirit & # x03C4; th saints and Mary Virgin & # x03BF; enanthr Y & # x03C9; pisan 3C4; a. Cross & # x03B8; integration for us to know Pontius & # x03C5; Pilate & # x03C5;, he victims & # x03B1; he tafent & # x03B1;. And Reconstruction & # x03BD; the day τῇ τρίτῃ the Scriptures. And reach & # x03BD; the fields the skies & # x1F7A; as he kathezo & # x03BC; enone from the right of the Father. Again coming & # x03BD; After being doxis judge the living and dead & # x03C2;, king of th & # x03AF; our indispensable estai end.

There .. any wiser?

335 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:55:01pm

re: #312 Occasional Reader

Yeah, I'm familiar with that argument, but I also have a little trouble with the idea of "T. Rex died for our sins".

re: #330 Cato the Elder

Didn't you forget something?

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.

You tryin' to start a schism? ;^0

That schism is already a thousand years old. I will include the filioque when the Gospels do so.

336 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:55:31pm

re: #311 David IV of Georgia

If God was able to create this world in all its diversity, He would find it a simple task to create a world that produces new and different forms of life. Why not create a world that is continually changing?

'cause he's all sneaky and stuff, hiding fossils while at the same time showing off with really complicated and irreducible eyeballs and the like? He must be the sort of God that wears a hand buzzer, or passes out exploding cigarettes and such. A real card that God is...

337 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:55:55pm

re: #334 Buster Bunny

Excusing the roughness of the original material .. here is a pseudo translation of Davids Greek stuff. Please excuse the untranslateable bits.

There .. any wiser?

It's starting to resemble The Creed.

338 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:56:06pm

re: #331 buzzsawmonkey

I still want to know why they're obsessing over building hybrids and new cumbersome battery technologies for public transportation, when they can easily build a cable network in any city and revive electric buses.

you mentioned that the other day so I googled it...nothing but a lot of nostalgia...curious no?

339 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:56:30pm

re: #331 buzzsawmonkey

I still want to know why they're obsessing over building hybrids and new cumbersome battery technologies for public transportation, when they can easily build a cable network in any city and revive electric buses.

Either way, you still need electricity to power it.

It ain't coming from windmills.

340 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:56:34pm

re: #334 Buster Bunny

Eww. Try reading #261 JCM

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made: who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the heavens, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man: crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried; and he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; and he ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and again he will come with glory to judge the living and the dead; of whose kingdom there shall be no end: and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and the giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is adored and glorified; who spoke by the prophets: and one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

341 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:57:20pm

re: #336 The Shadow Do

'cause he's all sneaky and stuff, hiding fossils while at the same time showing off with really complicated and irreducible eyeballs and the like? He must be the sort of God that wears a hand buzzer, or passes out exploding cigarettes and such. A real card that God is...

You saw his movies, right? The ones with John Denver?

342 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:57:37pm

re: #335 David IV of Georgia

It was a joke, son.

343 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:57:44pm

re: #339 lobo91

Either way, you still need electricity to power it.

It ain't coming from windmills.

better learn the Ostrut...just keep truckin on

344 nyc redneck  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:57:46pm

I.D. is pushed as valid science by distorting and lying abt, evolution.
how unscientific.

345 ArmyWife  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:57:57pm

re: #324 lobo91

Exactly. Remember when California wasn't going to have electricity? What happens during brown outs? NO DRIVING FOR YOU!

346 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:57:58pm

re: #333 Jetpilot1101

I think he created them/evolved them and then allowed them to die off so later on we would have something to study and explore.

You'll forgive me if I think that sounds kind of bizarre.

347 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:58:07pm

re: #334 Buster Bunny

The Apostle's Creed?

348 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:59:13pm
349 BatGuano  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:59:34pm

re: #328 David IV of Georgia

Even Old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
(people just like it better that way)

350 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:59:39pm

re: #331 buzzsawmonkey

I still want to know why they're obsessing over building hybrids and new cumbersome battery technologies for public transportation, when they can easily build a cable network in any city and revive electric buses.

Two weeks ago, I laughed my arse off at a moonbat here in coastal NC driving a Prius covered with snow... He was stopped beside me at a stoplight, and it was all I could do to not roll down my window (using electricity) and ask him how his campaign against Global Warming was going...

351 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:59:42pm
352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 6:59:43pm

re: #347 Mich-again

I had a friend named Creed. He was a music minister. Called himself "The Apostle Creed". Really.

He was a hoot.

353 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:00:01pm

re: #347 Mich-again

The Apostle's Creed?

Nicene.

354 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:00:02pm
355 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #324 lobo91

I'm still trying to figure out what these geniuses plan to use to produce electricity to charge all those electric cars they want Detroit to build.

Unicorn farts?

Unicorn farts are methane, carbon footprint, no can do. Also, increasing/improving the electric grid will cast a shadow over my favorite area to go hiking while wearing $3000 worth of outdoors gear, so can't do that either. So, um, the answer is... Change! Hope!

/

356 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:00:30pm

re: #346 Occasional Reader

You'll forgive me if I think that sounds kind of bizarre.

I find it a bit bizarre myself because if I was God, I wouldn't have done it that way. I'm not God (thankfully) so while I don't quite understand why he did what he did, I rest in the knowledge that one day I'l find out.

357 BatGuano  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:00:39pm

re: #353 Cato the Elder

Niiiiice!

358 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:01:01pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

Very odd, in my view. Electric buses worked, and worked well, in US cities for decades. They are a proven technology, which takes not the slightest new inquiry or development or study.

The fact that not one of the environmental geniuses or worriers has even thought about using this technology says to me that the whole push for environmentally-friendly transportation is absolutely nothing but a boondoggle.

It wouldn't be incredibly hard to electify the streets and put meters on electric cars. You could do just the main thoroughfares first, and the cars could have a much smaller battery for tootling through the non electric streets.

359 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:01:13pm
360 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:01:26pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

Very odd, in my view. Electric buses worked, and worked well, in US cities for decades. They are a proven technology, which takes not the slightest new inquiry or development or study.

The fact that not one of the environmental geniuses or worriers has even thought about using this technology says to me that the whole push for environmentally-friendly transportation is absolutely nothing but a boondoggle.

boondoggle or swindle?...where billions are concerned?...heh

361 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:01:49pm

re: #356 Jetpilot1101

I find it a bit bizarre myself because if I was God, I wouldn't have done it that way. I'm not God (thankfully) so while I don't quite understand why he did what he did, I rest in the knowledge that one day I'l find out.

And, not meaning to pick a fight, but you do realize that your argument here "begs the question", in the true sense of the phrase.

362 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:02:21pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

Was in the car earlier and listening to Dennis Miller on the radio... He wondered why, if we are going to spend huge amounts of dollars on public works, why not bullet trains to get us across the country (to compete with the perpetually unprofitable airlines)?

363 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:02:24pm

re: #358 Thanos

It wouldn't be incredibly hard to electify the streets and put meters on electric cars. You could do just the main thoroughfares first, and the cars could have a much smaller battery for tootling through the non electric streets.

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

364 Buster Bunny  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:02:29pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey


The fact that not one of the environmental geniuses or worriers has even thought about using this technology says to me that the whole push for environmentally-friendly transportation is absolutely nothing but a boondoggle.

Absolutely. The fact they arent out there actually striving for environmental renewal, reforestation, creative sequencing to re-establish a harmonious environment suggests to me tis all a load of doggle boon.

365 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:02:36pm

re: #342 Cato the Elder

It was a joke, son.

I hoped so. I sometimes get annoyed when people add words to what I say when I took pains not to say those words...

366 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:03:01pm

Old Line Texan, I've done a quick scan up thread. Friendly donkeys, Brittany Spears, and French maid outfits. What is this, the Night of Decadence?

367 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:03:06pm

re: #341 OldLineTexan

You saw his movies, right? The ones with John Denver?


No! I didn't, LOL. Did he do the exploding cigar thing?

368 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:03:15pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

It would sure cut down on jaywalking!

369 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:03:23pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

On their feet, the same way the do under the Trolley car wires in SF.

370 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:03:25pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

With jerky, jumping, twitchy motions.

371 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:03pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

Rubber booties?

/

372 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:07pm

re: #345 ArmyWife

Exactly. Remember when California wasn't going to have electricity? What happens during brown outs? NO DRIVING FOR YOU!

I also remember when California tried to legislate that a certain percentage of cars sold in the state had to be electric.

Even though no manufcturer made a viable electric car at the time.

Idiots.

373 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:09pm

re: #370 OldLineTexan

With jerky, jumping, twitchy motions.

bzzzt!

374 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:30pm

re: #371 christheprofessor

Rubber booties?

/

"Kinky."

-Hedley Lamarr

375 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:48pm

BTW - we need a "rationalist" movement in the GOP -

1) Sound economic policy based on promoting free market competition while regulating for graft and fraud so that the market has the maximum number of participants

2) Separation of Church and State

3) No excuses for fighting the Jihad - the West simply must win

4) Rejection of government sponsored cultural and social engineering attempts ranging from indoctrinating students to reject science to indoctrinating students in multi-culturalism. A free society lets culture take its course.

5) No silly hats or giant puppets.

376 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:50pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

Very carefully....
Duh!

377 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:57pm

re: #374 Occasional Reader

"Kinky."

-Hedley Lamarr

Nothing beats new boots and panties.

378 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:04:59pm
379 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:07pm
380 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:09pm

re: #306 Occasional Reader

If he exists, and is omnipotent/omniscient, he would (by definition) have an infinite number of ways of accomplishing that goal. Having 99% of living species die off seems like an odd choice to make.

How do we know His goal? Everything is a mystery. What is this thing we call the universe? Where is it? So many questions. So few answers. I took an elementary astronomy course in college hoping to gain some insight on these "deep" questions. Not surprisingly many of my classmates were there for the same reason. Much to our disappointment the professor did not have the answers either. As a matter of fact, he had the same questions. So you either have faith that there is a plan and a purpose or you don't.

381 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:21pm

re: #366 Jim in Virginia

Old Line Texan, I've done a quick scan up thread. Friendly donkeys, Brittany Spears, and French maid outfits. What is this, the Night of Decadence?

Shhhhh! it's all about weet dreams

382 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:25pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

Very odd, in my view. Electric buses worked, and worked well, in US cities for decades. They are a proven technology, which takes not the slightest new inquiry or development or study.

The fact that not one of the environmental geniuses or worriers has even thought about using this technology says to me that the whole push for environmentally-friendly transportation is absolutely nothing but a boondoggle.

Busses? What about trolleys, for Pete's sake? We had electric trolleys here in Baltimore until the 1950s, when the car companies etc. bought them up and shut them down to kill the competition. You can still spot remnants of the tracks if you know where to look. And every time they dig up the street I live on, there are the buried tracks.

383 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:30pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

Reine, are the street cars on St. Charles and Canal St. in New Orleans still run on electric cable, or have they switched them to petrol fuel?

384 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:31pm

re: #364 Buster Bunny

Absolutely. The fact they arent out there actually striving for environmental renewal, reforestation, creative sequencing to re-establish a harmonious environment suggests to me tis all a load of doggle boon.

I'm teetering bro...I might just blow one of these days...the Bo admin is at least entertaining while the cliff looms foreward

385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:39pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

"Tootling"?

If the streets are electrified - how do pedestrians cross?

Very Carefully.

386 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:05:55pm

re: #366 Jim in Virginia

Old Line Texan, I've done a quick scan up thread. Friendly donkeys, Brittany Spears, and French maid outfits. What is this, the Night of Decadence?

I went once. They were swinging Sparky ( a 6 or 7 foot paper-mache penis) through a doorway painted as a vagina. One girl I didn't know (but wished I did!) showed up as a cavewoman wearing approximtely 2 square inches of fake fur.

They brought Sparky to the football game the next day (or week, whatever), and the campos TRIED to take it away.

Ah, college. I learned so much.

/

387 freetoken  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:06:22pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey


The fact that not one of the environmental geniuses or worriers has even thought about using this technology says to me that the whole push for environmentally-friendly transportation is absolutely nothing but a boondoggle.

Don't know who you are addressing as "environmental geniuses", but there is a non-trivial effort being put forth (by a variety of individuals and groups) for the electrification of transportation in the US, and this includes the use of electric trains and electric trolleys and trolley-buses.

388 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:06:39pm

re: #367 The Shadow Do

No! I didn't, LOL. Did he do the exploding cigar thing?

You have to see those movies. At least the first one.

389 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:06:44pm

re: #369 Thanos

On their feet, the same way the do under the Trolley car wires in SF.

Or the streetcar wires in New Orleans.

It really was an honest question. When you said the streets could be electrified, I pictured an entire network of electricity flowing through the streets. sorry.

390 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:07:16pm

re: #378 buzzsawmonkey

Yes. A true bullet train would almost be time-competitive with a plane between NY and Chicago.

Currently, it takes longer to go from NY to Chicago by train than it did in 1945.

it takes me 10 to 12 hrs to get from ABQ to Grand Rapids MI....it's a digrace

391 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:07:35pm
392 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:07:41pm

re: #389 reine.de.tout

Or the streetcar wires in New Orleans.

It really was an honest question. When you said the streets could be electrified, I pictured an entire network of electricity flowing through the streets. sorry.


Sorry then, you were thinking like a slot car or third rail, I was thinking whip antenna....

393 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:07:42pm

re: #375 karmic_inquisitor

You had me until #5.

394 Stonemason  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:07:43pm

re: #382 Cato the Elder

Busses? What about trolleys, for Pete's sake? We had electric trolleys here in Baltimore until the 1950s, when the car companies etc. bought them up and shut them down to kill the competition. You can still spot remnants of the tracks if you know where to look. And every time they dig up the street I live on, there are the buried tracks.

There are still trolleys in Philly

395 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:07:54pm

re: #314 Jetpilot1101

It does seem like an odd choice but I have to believe he has his reasons. I for one would not want a T-rex wandering around my neighborhood. Plus, I don't think that species like humans and dinosaurs could have peacefully coexisted which could explain why He chose to let them die off.


God made the dinosaurs so we'd have hydrocarbon fuels for our SUVs.
OK, it makes no sesne, but does anyone have a better explanation?

396 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:08:08pm

re: #378 buzzsawmonkey

Yes. A true bullet train would almost be time-competitive with a plane between NY and Chicago.

Currently, it takes longer to go from NY to Chicago by train than it did in 1945.

If we're going to build bullet trains, I say we go that extra mile and build Bullitt Trains. Every train journey would be a thrilling chase scene in which you're pitted against bad guys in a car with a sawed-off shotgun, during the course of which they'd lose five hubcabs from four wheels.

397 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:08:09pm

re: #357 BatGuano

Niiiiice!

Nizza!

398 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:08:09pm

re: #382 Cato the Elder

Dallas realized that it still had all the components of a viable electric trolley system and after a little work revived the trolleys downtown.

399 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:08:37pm

Anybody watch "Time Warp" on Discovery. Very cool.

400 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:03pm

re: #361 Occasional Reader

And, not meaning to pick a fight, but you do realize that your argument here "begs the question", in the true sense of the phrase.

I guess it boils down to faith. Because I believe in the Christian God and have seen evidence of His work in my life, I have to take a lot of the stuff I believe on faith. I don't have all the answers and I'll readily admit that. I can't prove to you that there is a God nor will I ever try. I can however, explain to you how my faith in Him has changed my life and made me the person I am today.

401 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:25pm
402 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:31pm

re: #390 albusteve

it takes me 10 to 12 hrs to get from ABQ to Grand Rapids MI....it's a digrace

They tried to improve service...

403 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:36pm

re: #393 Killer Tomato

You had me until #5.

That killed it for me, too.

404 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:42pm

You know if someone were smart in SF or NO, they could build a whip for their electric / hybrid and rob power off the trolley lines...

405 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:44pm

re: #380 Bobblehead

I took an elementary astronomy course in college hoping to gain some insight on these "deep" questions.

No offense, but that's like taking a Canadian History class in order to gain insight into calculus. They're simply different subjects.

406 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:09:54pm

re: #348 buzzsawmonkey

There are already hybrid diesel-electric buses that dramatically cut fuel consumption and emissions. It is a perfect application for a hybrid. Lots of stop and go driving. Some of the problems with the overhead cable system is that it would require much more initial investment, the cables are an eyesore and can pose safety hazards, and of course the buses can only go where the cables go. But, that said there are a lot of good things about an electrical bus system. Much cheaper than a full-blown subway system.

Detroit had an elaborate electrical bus system back in the 40's for public transportation. And a cabled electrical train run all the way to Toledo I believe. The concrete arches that supported the cables are still there along the tracks Downriver.

407 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:10:05pm

re: #400 Jetpilot1101

I guess it boils down to faith. Because I believe in the Christian God and have seen evidence of His work in my life, I have to take a lot of the stuff I believe on faith. I don't have all the answers and I'll readily admit that. I can't prove to you that there is a God nor will I ever try. I can however, explain to you how my faith in Him has changed my life and made me the person I am today.

Fair enough.

408 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:10:11pm

re: #378 buzzsawmonkey

Yes. A true bullet train would almost be time-competitive with a plane between NY and Chicago.

Currently, it takes longer to go from NY to Chicago by train than it did in 1945.

Well, 1945 was at the end of the national emergency, so the railroad infrastructure was at its prime then with no other alternatives (that is, couldn't fly troops so the railroads were utilized) ...

Still, technologically, there is no reason why we couldn't construct a relatively low-cost rail service... (then again, there is the government).

409 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:10:11pm

re: #383 notutopia

Reine, are the street cars on St. Charles and Canal St. in New Orleans still run on electric cable, or have they switched them to petrol fuel?

I honestly don't know - I think they are still electric, though I haven't visited N.O. since right before Katrina. I just remember that when we rode, they sounded exactly like they did when I was a kid and visiting my grandmother. So I'm assuming they're still electric.

410 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:10:14pm

re: #386 OldLineTexan

I went once. They were swinging Sparky ( a 6 or 7 foot paper-mache penis) through a doorway painted as a vagina. One girl I didn't know (but wished I did!) showed up as a cavewoman wearing approximtely 2 square inches of fake fur.

They brought Sparky to the football game the next day (or week, whatever), and the campos TRIED to take it away.

Ah, college. I learned so much.

/

Please... You're bringing back memories I say I'd sooner forget but secretly cherish.

411 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:10:29pm

re: #398 David IV of Georgia

Dallas realized that it still had all the components of a viable electric trolley system and after a little work revived the trolleys downtown.

That's really cool. I did not know that.

412 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:10:49pm

re: #395 Jim in Virginia

God made the dinosaurs so we'd have hydrocarbon fuels for our SUVs.
OK, it makes no sesne, but does anyone have a better explanation?

What was the gas company with the dinosaur? Sinclair? Truth in advertising!

413 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:11:00pm

re: #353 Cato the Elder

Nicene.

A scrambled version of whatever it is.

414 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:11:25pm
415 Basho  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:11:37pm

re: #395 Jim in Virginia

God made the dinosaurs so we'd have hydrocarbon fuels for our SUVs.
OK, it makes no sesne, but does anyone have a better explanation?

For His own Glory. And because they are so cool... He got to play with them, all we have are broken bones.

416 BlueCanuck  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:11:40pm

re: #382 Cato the Elder

Well living in a city with trolleys/streetcars, it's great in certain seasons. In the winter though they are a nightmare. Get a big snow storm and the driver has to get out at every major intersection to clean the rails just to keep moving. We used to have the electric buses as well, but I forget why the city got rid of them.

/Toronto, Ontario, Canada for those wondering.

417 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:12:03pm

re: #414 buzzsawmonkey

Between urban and inter-urban lines, it was possible, about 100 years ago, to go from New York to Chicago by trolley.

A lot of changes from line to line, of course.

And 6 weeks.

418 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:12:16pm

re: #402 JCM

They tried to improve service...

[Video]

campy...I must have missed that one...pretty cool

419 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:12:21pm

re: #375 karmic_inquisitor
Except for the giant puppets, I'm in. (We need giant puupets!)
What about the borders and immigration? A national ID card and a guest worker program?

420 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:12:34pm

re: #382 Cato the Elder

Busses? What about trolleys, for Pete's sake? We had electric trolleys here in Baltimore until the 1950s, when the car companies etc. bought them up and shut them down to kill the competition. You can still spot remnants of the tracks if you know where to look. And every time they dig up the street I live on, there are the buried tracks.

I was going to post the story of the car companies killing the electric trains,but a quick Google questions what I had thought to be true too, you decide.

link.

421 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:12:35pm

re: #404 Thanos

You know if someone were smart in SF or NO, they could build a whip for their electric / hybrid and rob power off the trolley lines...

Everytime you mention "whip" in SF, it provokes reactions that don't involve clean, efficient public transportation in the slightest.

422 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:10pm

re: #418 albusteve

campy...I must have missed that one...pretty cool

Rip off of the Love Boat.

423 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:15pm

Discovery channel. Guy's about to put his arm in a bear trap. Impervious to pain (he claims). Don't believe him.

424 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:18pm

re: #416 BlueCanuck

Well living in a city with trolleys/streetcars, it's great in certain seasons. In the winter though they are a nightmare. Get a big snow storm and the driver has to get out at every major intersection to clean the rails just to keep moving. We used to have the electric buses as well, but I forget why the city got rid of them.

/Toronto, Ontario, Canada for those wondering.

New Orleans had electric busses too, at one time. I can remember riding many years ago, but I haven't seen them around for a loooong time.

425 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:22pm
426 Scion9  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:31pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Do the climate change kooks do this?

I don't think the AGW crowd is quite the same here. The science relating to greenhouse gases is solid, and I think it would be pretty ludicrous to believe that man does not impact his environment at all.

The AGW proponents are more about politicizing science, and misrepresenting and manipulating data to do so. Someone pointed to the Mann Hockey Stick. You can also look into the projections of greenhouse gas emissions from burning fossil fuels made by AGW proponents. They basically assume that the rate of increase in burning said fuels is going to keep increasing indefinitely for the next several centuries, and the studies completely ignore projections of peak oil (ie how much oil we can actually get out of the ground). There are a lot of issues with the field in general that rely on presuppositions (like the overuse of very rudimentary, and likely faulty computer models) rather than on actual experimentation.

There is also now a multibillion dollar, multinational government subsidized industry that runs off of the most sensationalist of projections. Even if the fundamentals of the theory are accurate (which I believe they are), discrediting the direness of long term impact to the climate by human emissions would probably see hundreds of thousands of people not only go unemployed overnight, but their entire field of study be largely irrelevant and therefore unworthy of funding by the government regarding both experimentation and technology. Not to mention the secondary impact of people that would probably lose interest in their carbon footprints, and buying overpriced hybrid cars, and Al Gore indulgences, etc.

Politicizing science is wrong, but it isn't the same thing as attempting to discredit the whole field.

427 BatGuano  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:33pm

Here's what I be talki'n bout

428 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:45pm

re: #416 BlueCanuck

We used to have the electric buses as well, but I forget why the city got rid of them.

Ask Exxon, Amoco, Texaco and Gulf.

429 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:13:56pm

re: #324 lobo91

I'm still trying to figure out what these geniuses plan to use to produce electricity to charge all those electric cars they want Detroit to build.

Unicorn farts?

Obama is gonna "green" 2 million homes. We're gonna switch to CFL bulbs. Wind power,solar. Green schools and federal buildings.

You know.. all kinds of stuff GE er NBC will profit from.

430 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:14:03pm

re: #421 OldLineTexan

Everytime you mention "whip" in SF, it provokes reactions that don't involve clean, efficient public transportation in the slightest.

OLT, you have to stop visiting Zombie's Folsom street fair photo expose so much...

431 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:14:11pm

re: #425 buzzsawmonkey

I said "possible," not "comfortable," "fast," "fun," or "desirable."

Though you would get to really meet the people.

Are you crazy? Have you met the people?

432 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:14:14pm

re: #421 OldLineTexan

Everytime you mention "whip" in SF, it provokes reactions that don't involve clean, efficient public transportation in the slightest.

In SF a a carriage drawn by whipping six guys in leather harnesses would be "normal."

433 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:14:26pm

re: #411 Cato the Elder

[Link: www.railwaypreservation.com...]

434 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:14:33pm

re: #386 OldLineTexan

I went once. They were swinging Sparky ( a 6 or 7 foot paper-mache penis) through a doorway painted as a vagina. One girl I didn't know (but wished I did!) showed up as a cavewoman wearing approximtely 2 square inches of fake fur.

They brought Sparky to the football game the next day (or week, whatever), and the campos TRIED to take it away.

Ah, college. I learned so much.

/

You realize everyone now wonders WTF you're talking about?

435 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:15:02pm

re: #409 reine.de.tout

I honestly don't know - I think they are still electric, though I haven't visited N.O. since right before Katrina. I just remember that when we rode, they sounded exactly like they did when I was a kid and visiting my grandmother. So I'm assuming they're still electric.

They were there the last two times I flew out to Harrah's, this summer, still cheap too.

436 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:15:42pm

re: #420 avanti

I was going to post the story of the car companies killing the electric trains,but a quick Google questions what I had thought to be true too, you decide.

link.

Crap. Duped again.

437 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:15:56pm

re: #430 Thanos

OLT, you have to stop visiting Zombie's Folsom street fair photo expose so much...

Those goats are liars, I swear.

438 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:16:07pm

re: #428 Cato the Elder

Ask Exxon, Amoco, Texaco and Gulf.

In LA it was..
General Motors, Philips Petroleum, Mack Truck, Standard Oil of California, Goodyear

Similar story elsewhere, with a slightly different cast of characters.

439 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:16:10pm

They're doing away with the petrol buses in Costa Rica and going to electric and LP. Many of the cars use LP for city transport. In the mountains, most people are still using diesel and gas trucks and SUVS.

440 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:16:10pm

Time for bed. Goodnight all.

441 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:16:47pm

re: #437 OldLineTexan

Those goats are liars, I swear.

You mean what they told me about cowboy boots wasn't true?

442 SFGoth  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:16:49pm

re: #380 Bobblehead

How do we know His goal? [ ]

Or Hers.

443 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:16:52pm

re: #425 buzzsawmonkey

I said "possible," not "comfortable," "fast," "fun," or "desirable."

Though you would get to really meet the people.

In fact, they'd catch hold of your sleeve, to the end of the line.

And that could take a while.

444 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:17:08pm

re: #424 reine.de.tout

New Orleans had electric busses too, at one time. I can remember riding many years ago, but I haven't seen them around for a loooong time.

riding the street car from Canal up St Charles to the Garden and the zoo beyond...an authentic American experience...a dream really

445 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:17:24pm

re: #434 Jim in Virginia

They're all short on coffee. Don't worry.

446 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:17:28pm

re: #435 avanti

They were there the last two times I flew out to Harrah's, this summer, still cheap too.

'k, thanks.
All I could remember was how they sounded, and they sounded the same as I remembered from childhood.

447 BlueCanuck  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:17:50pm

re: #428 Cato the Elder

Ask Exxon, Amoco, Texaco and Gulf.

I don't think that was the issue. It might have been something to do with maintenance, replacements, and manufacturing of said buses. I might have to do a quick search about it. As with most things here I believe it may have been political short sightedness more then anything else.

448 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:18:32pm

re: #439 notutopia

They're doing away with the petrol buses in Costa Rica and going to electric and LP. Many of the cars use LP for city transport. In the mountains, most people are still using diesel and gas trucks and SUVS.

Putting hundreds of gay donkeys out of work.

449 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:19:15pm

re: #446 reine.de.tout

'k, thanks.
All I could remember was how they sounded, and they sounded the same as I remembered from childhood.

Reine, For you...

450 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:19:20pm

re: #439 notutopia

They're doing away with the petrol buses in Costa Rica and going to electric and LP. Many of the cars use LP for city transport. In the mountains, most people are still using diesel and gas trucks and SUVS.

Do you live in Costa Rica? Just curious.

451 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:19:35pm

re: #444 albusteve

riding the street car from Canal up St Charles to the Garden and the zoo beyond...an authentic American experience...a dream really

Yep. I like to take the boat from Canal to the zoo - then the streetcar back to Canal.

Streetcar passes about a block from where my grandmother lived near Touro.

452 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:19:48pm

re: #331 buzzsawmonkey

I still want to know why they're obsessing over building hybrids and new cumbersome battery technologies for public transportation, when they can easily build a cable network in any city and revive electric buses.

FWIW, such systems have a few vulnerabilities and inefficiencies that weren't a big deal when electricity was cheap and cities more concentrated -

You have to run and energize wire wherever a bus may go. That creates (in a large city) a large amount of line loss of electricity. That loss can be minimized based on the wire gauge and voltages, but then safety concerns kick in - the higher you run the voltages the more of a danger (perceived and real) it poses to the public.

Now consider a city bus network and you can imagine hundreds of miles of lines basically leaking electricity due to line loss. Pump up the voltages and then you get folks suing cities for health effects much like people try to do when they live under high voltage towers.

Overhead high voltage works well for light rail and other rail lines because you have a minimal network and usually have good physical control to access to the wire from a safety standpoint.

453 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:20:32pm

re: #420 avanti

I was going to post the story of the car companies killing the electric trains,but a quick Google questions what I had thought to be true too, you decide.

link.

It's one of those that's partially true. Their were a number of competing forces. The biggest was simply cars and suburbia. Folks wanted out of the city, and into nice suburbs with big yards and the car let them do that.

454 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:20:50pm

Creationists are melting down all over the place tonight.

455 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:21:01pm

re: #413 Mich-again

A scrambled version of whatever it is.

The Greek got scrambled when converting it into html. It was the Nicene-Constantinoplian Creed of 381 AD. The Nicene Creed of 325 AD was a little shorter and had a few other differences. The Nicene-Constantinoplian Creed is almost always referred to as the Nicene Creed today.

456 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:21:09pm

re: #436 Cato the Elder

Crap. Duped again.

I almost told the same story, but the army of fact checkers on here would have nailed me. So sure of the rightness of my cause, I decided to double check, and oops.:)

457 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:21:15pm

re: #452 karmic_inquisitor

Just another reason we need to get back to cheap abundant energy, not just here but everywhere.

458 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:21:22pm

One of the problems with bus service, at least in Baltimore, is that using it involves being treated like a third-class citizen.

Only rarely is there a shelter. By far the majority of bus stops are nothing but a sign. Bad weather? Pouring rain? Snow? You're on your own.

When I lived in Germany, riding the bus meant having a shelter at every stop.

Here, it's like, "Hey, if you're enough of a schmo to ride the bus, go jump in the harbor."

459 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:21:43pm

re: #454 Charles

Not me. Chillin' with mah buds. Watching stuff blow up on the teletubes.

460 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:21:59pm

re: #449 notutopia

Reine, For you...

[Video]

OMG that's great!
Where in the world did you find that?
I love the way the ride sounds.

I found at a "junk" shop a button from a vintage streetcar operator uniform, and glued a back to it and wear it as a pendant sometimes.

461 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:22:09pm

re: #454 Charles

Creationists are melting down all over the place tonight.

It's not pretty.....

463 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:23:06pm

re: #387 freetoken

Don't know who you are addressing as "environmental geniuses", but there is a non-trivial effort being put forth (by a variety of individuals and groups) for the electrification of transportation in the US, and this includes the use of electric trains and electric trolleys and trolley-buses.

I find these push to electrification arguments ridiculous. This is apt to become the next big government SNAFU. Electrification without the infrastructure is like bringing home a side of beef without a refrigerator.

I see a future where you can sit in the dark in your Green home waiting for the wind to blow on your Al Gore sanctioned backyard windmill, or for the skies to clear to fire up your Al Gore sanctioned solar array.

You want juice? Ya gotta build nukes and you gotta free up coal. The rest is an Al Gore sanctioned pipe dream.

Hell, even Texas had to back down from building a dozen or so new units (coal and nuke) because the moonbat major city mayors (all D's) raised a stink.

This will not end well.

464 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:23:07pm

re: #450 lobo91

Do you live in Costa Rica? Just curious.

No. I have spent large blocks of time doing medical mission work there. I go every three-four years, usually stay for 2 months.

465 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:23:17pm

re: #380 Bobblehead

How do we know His goal? Everything is a mystery. What is this thing we call the universe? Where is it? So many questions. So few answers. I took an elementary astronomy course in college hoping to gain some insight on these "deep" questions. Not surprisingly many of my classmates were there for the same reason. Much to our disappointment the professor did not have the answers either. As a matter of fact, he had the same questions. So you either have faith that there is a plan and a purpose or you don't.

Or deny there is the possibility of a plan...

Science is science -- I respect it. My father, a devoutly Catholic chemist, respects it and understands it far better than the vast majority of us. Science demands (unapologetically) that we only believe/trust that which is observable. No argument there.

That doesn't preclude asking about the possibility of that which is beyond our knowledge/abilities, including from where we came.

So, science is science and should be taught as such (that which is observable). Science has its method.

Philosophical and religious questions are either matters of faith or question and should be treated as such. There is no method, which is the essence of faith.

466 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:23:27pm
467 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:23:46pm

re: #458 Cato the Elder

I tink it is cool the way that people "thumb" for a ride in Baltimore. Kind of like a peace sign, waving downward. Forgot what it's called.

468 BlueCanuck  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:23:51pm

re: #447 BlueCanuck

Ah, the internet. Isn't there anything you don't have? Here's the history of Toronto's Bus Trolleys.

469 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:24:28pm

I just wonder if all the enthusiasm for electrical propulsion is really just a version of NIMBY.

After all the manufacturing, disposal, and or recycling of batteries is still a pretty dirty business. Ditto for the modern electronic circuit boards that control most electrical motors (which still take an awful lot of copper IIRC).

Most electricity in this country is generated using fossil fuel except for nuclear power which has its own peculiar problems with waste (although this is getting better) and security concerns.

Other alternative generation is either unreliable (solar and wind) or has enviromental impact (hydro-electric dams on rivers).

I think wanting clean energy is commonsensical. No one wants a tailpipe in their living rooms and, by extension, their surroundings.

But if if the total environmental impact is not accounted for then we are merely
moving the problem from the city to the countryside; from America to China, India, and Mexico; from the air to the land and water.

470 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:24:29pm

re: #465 christheprofessor

Nice to see you again. I trust things are going well for you.

471 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:25:45pm

re: #463 The Shadow Do

You know Germany finally wised up and are building like 2 dozen new coal plants.

472 freetoken  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:25:48pm

re: #463 The Shadow Do


You want juice? Ya gotta build nukes [...]

You do know that Obama's Sec of Energy (Chu), and his Science Advisor (Holdren), and also the director of GISS (Hansen) are all strong proponents or radically expanding nuclear energy, don't you?

473 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:26:10pm

re: #465 christheprofessor

Ditto the KT 470. Miss ya Christ.

474 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:26:38pm

re: #460 reine.de.tout

OMG that's great!
Where in the world did you find that?
I love the way the ride sounds.

I found at a "junk" shop a button from a vintage streetcar operator uniform, and glued a back to it and wear it as a pendant sometimes.

I have a picture of me standing on the boarding landing of the 934 St. Charles Ave. trolley when I was a tike. I blew it up to an 8X10. It brings back memories of hot, humid, fun rides to Canal St. to go shopping with my Grandma.

475 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:27:05pm

re: #464 notutopia

Cool.

Mrs Lobo and I have been looking into the possibility of moving down there after I retire from the Army in a couple of years.

What's your impression of life there for American ex-pats?

476 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:27:10pm

I want to go on the Karl Rove cruise!

Seriously. I do.

What a perfect chance to get away from O mania and go to a gorgeous place with a bunch of conservatives!

Can we sponsor an LGF give-away? Perhaps a raffle?

477 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:27:24pm

re: #444 albusteve

riding the street car from Canal up St Charles to the Garden and the zoo beyond...an authentic American experience...a dream really

I took my companion out there with me, and her goal was to have a drink in every bar in the French Quarter. Clearly, it was her first trip and she fell far short of her goal in the four days we were there. We did learn the ultimate hangover cure, stay drunk. What a party town, great folks, great food and music.

478 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:27:55pm

re: #474 notutopia

Yes, but what about the streetcar named Desire?

479 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:28:11pm

re: #475 lobo91

Cool.

Mrs Lobo and I have been looking into the possibility of moving down there after I retire from the Army in a couple of years.

What's your impression of life there for American ex-pats?

It's awesome.

480 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:28:20pm

re: #454 Charles

Creationists are melting down all over the place tonight.

More meltage!

481 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:28:42pm

re: #478 Killer Tomato

Yes, but what about the streetcar named Desire?

482 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:28:48pm

re: #405 Occasional Reader

No offense, but that's like taking a Canadian History class in order to gain insight into calculus. They're simply different subjects.

Oh for heavens sake I was a 20 year kid. My friends and I thought everything we discussed was "deep". Want to learn about the universe? Take astronomy. Nope. That didn't work The professor couldn't answer those questions but he could teach us astrophysics. Disappointing but mind expanding in a different way. Philosophy? Had a really boring instructor. You could tell he'd lost his interest in teaching. Not much insight gained in that class. So I've done my own studying over the years and decided to trust in my faith.

BTW.. You can learn some interesting things about calculus from taking history courses.

483 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:28:53pm

re: #465 christheprofessor

So what about the healing powers of crystals and aromatherapy?

/kidding -- Howdy CTP :)

484 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:29:23pm

re: #478 Killer Tomato

Yes, but what about the streetcar named Desire?

that's the St Charles car... the original is sitting somewhere on display...NO is the real deal

485 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:29:56pm
486 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:29:59pm

re: #318 Occasional Reader

Er... so he created them for the express purpose of wiping them out?

Sorry, but all the arguments that head in this direction make God start to sound like a kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

We all die. Why is it so much worse for a species to have a limited lifespan?

487 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:30:03pm

re: #472 freetoken

You do know that Obama's Sec of Energy (Chu), and his Science Advisor (Holdren), and also the director of GISS (Hansen) are all strong proponents or radically expanding nuclear energy, don't you?

No, but you can rest assured their moonbat base will have not of that.

488 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:32:16pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

Good to see you as well... I hope all is well with you and yours...

Been really busy so I haven't been on as much. Things are slowing down now, so I anticipate more LGF time...

489 Scion9  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:32:17pm

re: #462 freetoken

"Probably the weakest reason for mistrusting us climate scientists is the idea that we are in it for the money. When I was a starving grad student, I told a dignified lady from rural Mississippi that I was doing climate modeling. She was briefly taken aback. After a beat, she gathered her wits and politely replied "Oh, that must be... lucrative"."


Obama is gonna "green" 2 million homes. We're gonna switch to CFL bulbs. Wind power,solar. Green schools and federal buildings.

You know.. all kinds of stuff GE er NBC will profit from.

Yeah man. No money flying around in that industry. Of course, those who control the money are not climate scientists at all; nor are they the ones that stand to profit the most in either political power or material wealth. So mistrusting them would be irrelevant wouldn't it?

490 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:32:47pm

Trolleys are the hip new mass transit scam. All the cool cities are getting them (Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Charlotte) except they don't call them trolleys. It's light rail- electric powered vehicles that can operate on a separate track or in shared traffic, in streets. Much cheaper than heavy rail (like NY subways, BART, MARTA, Washington's METRO) but much more expensive than a bus system. More capacity than buses, less capacity than heavy rail.
Mass transit never pays for itself and rarely takes many people out of their cars. What havy rail and light rail can do (and what all the cool cities hope for) is stimulate new, high end residential, office and retail development (and property tax revenues) around the stations.
/geek mode off

491 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:32:54pm

re: #352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had a friend named Creed. He was a music minister. Called himself "The Apostle Creed". Really.

He was a hoot.

On the Jewish side of the family, I have a cousin who was going to become a country music singer and call himself "Billy Ray Sheet".

I have nothing to give the Lizard who gets that but a ding-up.

492 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:32:55pm

re: #481 JCM
LOL
I own a copy of that - think I'll watch it this weekend.

re: #484 albusteve
Yeah - I made a point of riding it when I was there.

493 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:33:10pm

re: #488 christheprofessor

Good to see you as well... I hope all is well with you and yours...

Been really busy so I haven't been on as much. Things are slowing down now, so I anticipate more LGF time...

I've considered quitting work.

494 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:33:13pm

That's four meltdowns so far tonight.

495 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:34:25pm

re: #490 Jim in Virginia

Not to mention that in a city like Houston where the population centers seem to change every decade, rail stations and tracks are "stuck".

496 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:35:00pm
497 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:35:20pm

re: #472 freetoken

You do know that Obama's Sec of Energy (Chu), and his Science Advisor (Holdren), and also the director of GISS (Hansen) are all strong proponents or radically expanding nuclear energy, don't you?

Chu is a big time nuke guy and a very well respected scientist.
Chu.

but it may be a uphill battle.

498 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:35:51pm

re: #490 Jim in Virginia

Trolleys are the hip new mass transit scam. All the cool cities are getting them (Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Charlotte) except they don't call them trolleys. It's light rail- electric powered vehicles that can operate on a separate track or in shared traffic, in streets. Much cheaper than heavy rail (like NY subways, BART, MARTA, Washington's METRO) but much more expensive than a bus system. More capacity than buses, less capacity than heavy rail.
Mass transit never pays for itself and rarely takes many people out of their cars. What havy rail and light rail can do (and what all the cool cities hope for) is stimulate new, high end residential, office and retail development (and property tax revenues) around the stations.
/geek mode off

To bad Seattle voters don't know that. They just flushed another $20 Billion down that hole.

499 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:36:17pm

re: #463 The Shadow Do

I find these push to electrification arguments ridiculous. This is apt to become the next big government SNAFU. .

This will not end well.


This will end with a lot of us like Moses.

Where was Moses when the lights went out?
He was in the dark.
500 albusteve  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:36:27pm

re: #485 buzzsawmonkey

It's been replaced by a hybrid named Safe Sex.

you're an obvious Californian....

501 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:36:48pm

re: #465 christheprofessor

Or deny there is the possibility of a plan...

Science is science -- I respect it. My father, a devoutly Catholic chemist, respects it and understands it far better than the vast majority of us. Science demands (unapologetically) that we only believe/trust that which is observable. No argument there.

That doesn't preclude asking about the possibility of that which is beyond our knowledge/abilities, including from where we came.

So, science is science and should be taught as such (that which is observable). Science has its method.

Philosophical and religious questions are either matters of faith or question and should be treated as such. There is no method, which is the essence of faith.

Quite eloquent. I do not have a way with words as you do. Putting my thoughts in writing has never been my forte. Never quite comes out right. I appreciate your ability to boil everything down to a couple of sentences.

New pic of the pup? She's a pretty girl.

502 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:37:07pm

re: #497 avanti

Chu is a big time nuke guy and a very well respected scientist.
Chu.

but it may be a uphill battle.

We are going to need lots of nuclear power to run the fans needed to keep all the wind mills Obama wants running 24/7.
////

503 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:37:15pm

re: #498 JCM

To bad Seattle voters don't know that. They just flushed another $20 Billion down that hole.

DI was one of the groups behind that effort btw. See their Cascadia pages.

504 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:37:20pm
505 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:38:01pm
506 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:38:12pm

re: #493 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've considered quitting work.

Step back from the ledge -- you don't really want to be a Democrat, do you?

507 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:38:29pm

re: #494 Charles

That's four meltdowns so far tonight.

Where?
I'm checking out spy off and on and don't see much going on but the usual.

508 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:38:36pm

re: #505 taxfreekiller

Chu is a full bore ass hole loon.

A tree sitting loon to boot

509 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:38:47pm
510 yochanan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:39:26pm

re: #468 BlueCanuck

we used to have light rail street cars in chicago in fact they used to run on the street near my apt. but they shut the system down back in 1950 and switched over to buses because there was too much car trafic for steel rail down the middle of bus. streets

511 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:39:27pm

re: #455 David IV of Georgia

Imagine if a political party ever tried to write a creed. We'll never see it. All political parties include in their roster people who can't stand other people on the roster. So a creed won't work. That which is most dear to some is revolting to others.

If the ID-Evolution schism seems like a potential GOP party-buster, consider the Democrats. They have a lock on both the Southern Baptists and the Gay Pride Paraders, on the Autoworker unions and the whacko environmentalists, on the Jewish voting bloc and the Pali sympathizers, On the pro-choice lobby and the most pious Christians, I could go on. The point is, they have managed to get people who despise each others' life-work to loyally vote for the same candidate regardless of how much a dumbass the candidate they put on the ballot is. So its not impossible.

512 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:39:46pm

re: #506 christheprofessor

Step back from the ledge -- you don't really want to be a Democrat, do you?

Yes. Yes he does. He wants to quit work. He wants to recommend my husband to take over his job. Do I know what the job is? Do I care? Can my dear one get there from Northern California? Do I give a damn? No. We wants the job.

Hey, gimme that. You SAID it was up for grabs. **bites**

513 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:39:47pm

re: #497 avanti

Chu is a big time nuke guy and a very well respected scientist.
Chu.

but it may be a uphill battle.

What Chu talkin' about? He's a global warming alarmist.

514 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:39:56pm
515 muckdog  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:39:56pm

I read the initial blog entry about creationism, and see comments about energy. LOL.

I'd rather comment on energy!

We need new nuclear power plants. There are many that in the process. Most initially will expand on existing nuclear sites. We need a lot more, though.

516 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:40:02pm

re: #495 unclassifiable

Not to mention that in a city like Houston where the population centers seem to change every decade, rail stations and tracks are "stuck".

Houston is serverd by a fairly simple wheel and spoke freeway system.

We have squandered our chance to have meaningful rail transport.

And the Main street light rail is a joke ... that rail system needed to run between the two airports, at a minimum.

Even the Katy Freeway (get the maids out to Memorial) line was a better idea than what we ended up with.

517 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:40:39pm

re: #498 JCM

To bad Seattle voters don't know that. They just flushed another $20 Billion down that hole.

/cue The Simpsons monorail episode.

518 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:40:46pm

German Report Claims World's Most Wanted Nazi War Criminal Died in 1992

BERLIN — Documents have surfaced in Egypt showing the world's most-wanted Nazi war criminal, concentration camp doctor Aribert Heim, died in Cairo in 1992, Germany's ZDF television and The New York Times reported.

Wednesday's reports said Heim, known as 'Dr. Death,' was living under a pseudonym and had converted to Islam by the time of his death from intestinal cancer.

Any correlations here?

519 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:41:04pm
520 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:41:07pm

re: #501 Bobblehead

Thank you kindly... She's a wonderful bitch, and I tell her so each say!

521 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:41:23pm

Coal is bad. It is black you know.
/

522 esch  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:41:30pm

re: #515 muckdog

We need new nuclear power plants. There are many that in the process. Most initially will expand on existing nuclear sites. We need a lot more, though.

I say put one directly underneath each State capitol. That'll keep them interested, involved, and in line.

523 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:41:34pm

re: #507 reine.de.tout

Where?
I'm checking out spy off and on and don't see much going on but the usual.

The Ben Stein thread.

524 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:42:17pm
525 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:42:27pm

re: #511 Mich-again

Imagine if a political party ever tried to write a creed. We'll never see it. All political parties include in their roster people who can't stand other people on the roster. So a creed won't work. That which is most dear to some is revolting to others.

If the ID-Evolution schism seems like a potential GOP party-buster, consider the Democrats. They have a lock on both the Southern Baptists and the Gay Pride Paraders, on the Autoworker unions and the whacko environmentalists, on the Jewish voting bloc and the Pali sympathizers, On the pro-choice lobby and the most pious Christians, I could go on. The point is, they have managed to get people who despise each others' life-work to loyally vote for the same candidate regardless of how much a dumbass the candidate they put on the ballot is. So its not impossible.

What Southern Baptist church do you attend? ? ? ?

526 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:42:28pm

Night all night owls!

527 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:42:46pm

re: #517 OldLineTexan

/cue The Simpsons monorail episode.

That's really more of a Shelbyville idea.

528 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #514 taxfreekiller

follow light rail
follow real estate values down along the light rail line

There's a movement underway to expand mass transit from Lowell Mass up to Nashua NH. Those of us who don't wish to blow upteen billion dollars on this are being called... wait for it.... yeah, that's right... racist!

529 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:43:00pm

re: #523 Charles

The Ben Stein thread.

People still back there slugging it out? Gosh. Ain't that thread over 6,000 years old?

530 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:43:20pm

re: #525 OldLineTexan

What Southern Baptist church do you attend? ? ? ?

Probably ones where race politics play a role...

531 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:43:34pm

re: #527 Occasional Reader

That's really more of a Shelbyville idea.

That's where you can marry your cousin, right?

532 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:44:00pm

re: #516 OldLineTexan

Houston is serverd by a fairly simple wheel and spoke freeway system.

We have squandered our chance to have meaningful rail transport.

And the Main street light rail is a joke ... that rail system needed to run between the two airports, at a minimum.

Even the Katy Freeway (get the maids out to Memorial) line was a better idea than what we ended up with.

I find Houston to be an absolute nightmare to drive around or through.

I have been to or through Houston many times over the past 25 years or so and every time there is construction going on . . . the interstate construction jobs never stop, the system seems to never be finished.

533 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:44:06pm

I do think it would be a wise and very forward looking thing for the Republicans to challenge Congress to create a transcontinental high speed rail right of way. It could be multipurpose - military transport since we can't always be sure the Canal will be open now, High speed coast to coast freight and passenger rail, an intelligent power intertie, and next generation OC-128 or better MPLS internet ring.

534 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:44:10pm

re: #507 reine.de.tout

Where?
I'm checking out spy off and on and don't see much going on but the usual.

need a skull and crossbones in the spy when someone goes down

535 hazzyday  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:44:15pm

re: #90 quickjustice

Given that Jesus was the opposite of a liar, and the Devil is known as the "Liar" or "Deceiver" in Scripture, I wonder how creationists square their lies and deceit with their alleged Lord. Does it occur to them that maybe they worship someone else instead? And that by misleading the gullible, they are "the blind leading the blind"? ;-)

I think you are accurate here. In terms of their own religious directions most of these active YEc'rs are in their own words performing the work of the devil.

Someone can lie about a small issue or not know they are telling an untruth and the sin seems slight. But someone who tells a big lie and knows it and does it anyway sins greatly. And then someone who tells a whopper of a lie in the guise of being religious. That truly does seem to be the work of Satan. That Texas board of Education seems to be overloaded with the minions of Satan.

Someday Creationist is going to become synonymous with liar if they keep it up.

536 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:44:22pm

re: #530 astronmr20

Probably ones where race politics play a role...

Haven't been in one of those. Do tell.

537 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:44:52pm

re: #512 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. Yes he does. He wants to quit work. He wants to recommend my husband to take over his job. Do I know what the job is? Do I care? Can my dear one get there from Northern California? Do I give a damn? No. We wants the job.

Hey, gimme that. You SAID it was up for grabs. **bites**

Well, that's a bit different -- I hadn't read the thread before, I replied to that one post...

Can you summarize?

538 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:45:09pm

re: #523 Charles

The Ben Stein thread.

Omigosh, they are still salting that? They are indefatigable.

539 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:45:18pm

re: #532 reine.de.tout

I find Houston to be an absolute nightmare to drive around or through.

I have been to or through Houston many times over the past 25 years or so and every time there is construction going on . . . the interstate construction jobs never stop, the system seems to never be finished.

Oh, the freeways are fine. It's the people, dear.

/

540 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:45:46pm

re: #503 Thanos

DI was one of the groups behind that effort btw. See their Cascadia pages.

Why does that not surprise me.

The commuter rail is so expensive the tickets are like about $5-$10 bucks but the per passenger subsidy is $35.

541 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:45:46pm

re: #475 lobo91

Cool.

Mrs Lobo and I have been looking into the possibility of moving down there after I retire from the Army in a couple of years.

What's your impression of life there for American ex-pats?

It is very ecologically progressive and conscious. The economy is fairly stable right now. Food is very expensive. About twice what it is here for like items.
Catholics abound. Healthcare is government managed and unions are alive for healthcare and industry's there. There are museums, art, numismatic museums, and there is no military. Electric is 220. No guns allowed. Crime is high in the cities. Houses are individually walled off, and are constructed mostly from stucco construction with flat roofs.
The climate and terrain from N to S and to the coast, is very diverse as is the agriculture. Most of the economy is agrarian. In the larger cities, they have decent transportation systems and highways. In the mountainous regions, it is absolutely gorgeous, but mostly tourists and college kids inhabit the towns. The rural outskirts of the cities are much like suburbia.
I have found the people to be very hard working, family centered, faith based, and striving to balance a capitalistic democracy, and yet maintain their culture and traditions.
I encourage you to go for an extended visit before planning such a move. Stay for a whole summer, the rainy season preferably, if you're going to be shopping for land. They do have washouts, flooding, and volcanoes.

542 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:45:47pm

re: #518 jorline

German Report Claims World's Most Wanted Nazi War Criminal Died in 1992


Any correlations here?


Hard to say, really. I met an amazing pair of people once who were Germans of the born-around-1930 group, who had converted to Islam. My sense of them was that they just needed to move as far away as possible from the culture that allowed them to grow up in such a nightmare.

What it means for someone responsible for the nightmare...God, I don't know. Repentence? A desire to become someone else? A dilettante's fascination with the exotic? Something uglier? Heck if I know.

The people I refer to above, I met at a very strange interfaith conference in Germany. Let me just comment that for a Jewish woman of the generation that grew up surrounded by Shoah survivors, the moment when a German man about your own age turns to you and starts talking about how oppressed he is as a convert to Islam is a very weird one. I wish someone had been following me with a camera at that conference. My face must have been a picture so much of the time.

543 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:46:34pm

re: #536 OldLineTexan

Haven't been in one of those. Do tell.

The sort of "southern Churches" where people like Hillary and other presidential candidates appear to campaign and suddenly their accents change, the pastor preaches politics from the pulpit, and nobody complains.

544 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:46:35pm

re: #540 JCM

Why does that not surprise me.

The commuter rail is so expensive the tickets are like about $5-$10 bucks but the per passenger subsidy is $35.

It's how they talked money out of Bill Gates.

545 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:46:47pm

re: #529 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

People still back there slugging it out? Gosh. Ain't that thread over 6,000 years old?

Poor grenma only got 11 comments before she passed away.
//

546 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:47:13pm

My transportation solution: We each get one of these.

547 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:47:27pm

re: #537 christheprofessor

Well, that's a bit different -- I hadn't read the thread before, I replied to that one post...

Can you summarize?


No, I'm kidding. It's just that my ears go up whenever anyone says "job", these days. My sweetie is looking, and it's, uh, not the best time for it.

548 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:47:27pm

re: #541 notutopia

No guns allowed. Crime is high in the cities.

IMPOSSIBLE!

/

549 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:47:37pm

re: #533 Thanos

I do think it would be a wise and very forward looking thing for the Republicans to challenge Congress to create a transcontinental high speed rail right of way. It could be multipurpose - military transport since we can't always be sure the Canal will be open now, High speed coast to coast freight and passenger rail, an intelligent power intertie, and next generation OC-128 or better MPLS internet ring.

Call your congressman, there are billions more to spent before we hit the trillion mark you know.

550 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:47:53pm

re: #483 unclassifiable

So what about the healing powers of crystals and aromatherapy?

/kidding -- Howdy CTP :)


Healing power of crystals? Every moonbat and their mothers will be waiting for open registration.

551 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:47:56pm

re: #541 notutopia

The downside: They have no Army and Hugo is close

552 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:48:01pm

re: #466 buzzsawmonkey


why they should now be considered perilous is beyond me.

The lawsuit crazed legal culture in the USA is not conducive to innovation. If the municipalities put up electrical cables all around town to power electrical buses, the Courts would soon be flooded with junk science tort lawsuits from every loser suffering from every ailment know to humankind.

This is a real problem for us. We need ingenuity and innovation to pull us out, but anyone or any company who introduces new technology that gains momentum and makes a profit will immediately become a target of lawsuits from lazy people looking to make a quick buck.

553 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:48:19pm

re: #543 astronmr20

The sort of "southern Churches" where people like Hillary and other presidential candidates appear to campaign and suddenly their accents change, the pastor preaches politics from the pulpit, and nobody complains.

Southern Baptist is a specific denomination.

554 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:49:17pm

re: #544 Thanos

It's how they talked money out of Bill Gates.

Not only is there science off the tracks.
There religion is a wreak.
And their politics are driving on the wrong side.

555 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:49:38pm

re: #516 OldLineTexan

We have squandered our chance to have meaningful rail transport.

I seem to remember Whitmire and several other mayors squandering billions on "studies" (I think Kathy's dream was a monorail system -- Disney writ large).

Well Houston has a tricky problem. The command and control folks want us all to move back to downtown in about half of the space we have in our cheap houses in the suburbs -- but them houses is so nice.

And a large part of the population is self-employed hauling equipment and personnel to job sites and locations scattered throughout the city.

Things are they way they are because people are willing to make the tradeoff of nice cheap housing with air quality, drive time, and the freedom to come and go as you please.

Now IF (big honking IF) you can devise a system that can address those desires and mitigate the negative aspects of those choices you may be on to something.

556 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:49:52pm

re: #511 Mich-again

Imagine if a political party ever tried to write a creed. We'll never see it. All political parties include in their roster people who can't stand other people on the roster. So a creed won't work. That which is most dear to some is revolting to others.

If the ID-Evolution schism seems like a potential GOP party-buster, consider the Democrats. They have a lock on both the Southern Baptists and the Gay Pride Paraders, on the Autoworker unions and the whacko environmentalists, on the Jewish voting bloc and the Pali sympathizers, On the pro-choice lobby and the most pious Christians, I could go on. The point is, they have managed to get people who despise each others' life-work to loyally vote for the same candidate regardless of how much a dumbass the candidate they put on the ballot is. So its not impossible.

Yep, then when the find out they all say "what the hell!" And turn around to vote Dem in the very next election.

557 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:50:04pm

re: #547 SanFranciscoZionist

No worries.

Easy for me to say. But it is remarkable how things seem to work out...

558 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:50:12pm

re: #553 OldLineTexan

Southern Baptist is a specific denomination.

And I'm pretty sure a few of these churches fall into that official denomination. Not all, but a few.

559 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:50:13pm

re: #553 OldLineTexan

Southern Baptist is a specific denomination.

My best friend from high school was raised Southern Baptist. She began to attend an American Baptist church in college. She insists that it was NOT because the Southern Baptist Convention took against her beloved Disney movies. I am not so sure.

/

560 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:50:31pm

re: #538 Thanos

Omigosh, they are still salting that? They are indefatigable.

Yep. They seem to think they can get away with posting an insult-filled farewell message in a dead thread.

561 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:50:52pm

Good night.

562 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:51:05pm

re: #10 CyanSnowHawk

I am so tired. How long can this go on?

Forgot the tag / ?

563 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:51:13pm

re: #542 SanFranciscoZionist

The people I refer to above, I met at a very strange interfaith conference in Germany. Let me just comment that for a Jewish woman of the generation that grew up surrounded by Shoah survivors, the moment when a German man about your own age turns to you and starts talking about how oppressed he is as a convert to Islam is a very weird one. I wish someone had been following me with a camera at that conference. My face must have been a picture so much of the time.

I have to ask you.. what did you say in response?

564 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:51:16pm
565 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:51:35pm

re: #557 christheprofessor

No worries.

Easy for me to say. But it is remarkable how things seem to work out...

Thanks--we're hanging in there OK.

566 christheprofessor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:51:36pm

re: #483 unclassifiable

So what about the healing powers of crystals and aromatherapy?

/kidding -- Howdy CTP :)

I'm well, thanks. And how's my favorite unclassifiable human lima bean?

567 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:52:18pm

re: #525 OldLineTexan

What Southern Baptist church do you attend? ? ? ?

I should have said Black Southern Baptists

568 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:52:20pm

Workin' in a Quote mine
Goin' down down down
Workin' in a Quote mine
I nevah sit down

I now turn this over to Buzzsawmonkey

569 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:52:20pm

re: #541 notutopia

Thanks!

We're probably going to go down there this summer, if I can get a few weeks off in between trips to Ft Bliss.

I'm sure we'll make several trips before deciding to make any sort of move. One website we were reading the othe day suggested renting for a year or so before deciding to buy anything, anyway, because a lot of people change their minds withing the first year.

Seemed like a sensible idea.

570 esch  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:52:21pm

re: #560 Charles

Yep. They seem to think they can get away with posting an insult-filled farewell message in a dead thread.

Hmm, sounds like an opportunity for a new term.

Necrothreadia?

571 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:52:35pm

re: #538 Thanos

Omigosh, they are still salting that? They are indefatigable.

indefatigable....cool, I had forgotten that one.

572 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:53:08pm

re: #555 unclassifiable

I seem to remember Whitmire and several other mayors squandering billions on "studies" (I think Kathy's dream was a monorail system -- Disney writ large).

Well Houston has a tricky problem. The command and control folks want us all to move back to downtown in about half of the space we have in our cheap houses in the suburbs -- but them houses is so nice.

And a large part of the population is self-employed hauling equipment and personnel to job sites and locations scattered throughout the city.

Things are they way they are because people are willing to make the tradeoff of nice cheap housing with air quality, drive time, and the freedom to come and go as you please.

Now IF (big honking IF) you can devise a system that can address those desires and mitigate the negative aspects of those choices you may be on to something.

Contraflow lanes - the majority of snarled traffic goes INTO the city in the morning, and OUT at night.

These would have served better as light rail, IMO, with Metro buses concentrated downtown/uptown.

Whitmire MAY have been the mayor that presided over actually ordering rail cars from a Japanese firm, and signing a contract that cost IIRC $4 million to cancel after the (easily anticipated by anyone but a politician) hue and cry. But it may have been Louie Welch. I do not think it was Hofheinz the Younger, but memories fade ...

573 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:53:10pm

re: #568 Ojoe

Workin' in a Quote mine
Goin' down down down
Workin' in a Quote mine
I nevah sit down

I now turn this over to Buzzsawmonkey

No need. That was excellent.

574 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:53:12pm

re: #525 OldLineTexan

What Southern Baptist church do you attend? ? ? ?

I know alot of Baptists who voted for Obama. There mad about Obama doing abortions over seas, but come election time the Union loyaties say vote Dem.

575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:53:44pm

re: #571 Naso Tang

Sounds like a word in a "Fu Manchu" or a "Dr. Phibes" movie doesn't it.

576 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:54:04pm

re: #551 Thanos

The downside: They have no Army and Hugo is close

It's not just Hugo. There is great political and economic strife between Nicaragua and Costa.
But, I must say, the flora and fauna make up for the border strife. Just stay away from the border.

577 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:54:31pm

re: #558 astronmr20

And I'm pretty sure a few of these churches fall into that official denomination. Not all, but a few.

Church-going Baptist Democrats are sparse on the ground around here. The party left them years ago.

578 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:55:15pm

re: #563 Bobblehead

I have to ask you.. what did you say in response?


I was twenty-three at the time, and surrounded by people whose goodwill I wanted for my graduate career (at the time), so as I recall, I simply reset my jaw and said "That's just terrible. Can you tell me more about your religious oppression?" I don't think he caught the sarcastic note, but the German Christian history professor from my group sure did, and about died laughing.

I then went back to the dorm and told my roommate, "OK. They have until ten o'clock to produce some real Muslims, or I'm flying back to London."

579 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:55:37pm

re: #571 Naso Tang

indefatigable....cool, I had forgotten that one.

One of my favorite ships, I have this print hanging on my wall because it gives me inspiration.

580 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:55:38pm

re: #574 screaming_eagle

I know alot of Baptists who voted for Obama. There mad about Obama doing abortions over seas, but come election time the Union loyaties say vote Dem.

Unions are thin here, too.

I guess I don't get out enough.

581 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:55:46pm

re: #546 Occasional Reader

I saw several instances where I would have pounded myself into several large inanimate objects.

/I should stick with a bike

582 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:56:04pm
583 ladycatnip  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:56:14pm

OT - NY is not happy with Obama. Scroll down just a tad and there's the ubiquitous messianic pic of the O. Even angelic messengers in the Bible forbade men to bow and worship. Wonder if he'll ever admit he's not divine.

584 esch  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:56:49pm

re: #582 taxfreekiller

Sleep sound, Pelosi, Reid and Obama are on watch.

*sigh*

I picked the wrong week to stop huffin' Duster.

585 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:56:53pm

re: #569 lobo91

Thanks!

We're probably going to go down there this summer, if I can get a few weeks off in between trips to Ft Bliss.

I'm sure we'll make several trips before deciding to make any sort of move. One website we were reading the othe day suggested renting for a year or so before deciding to buy anything, anyway, because a lot of people change their minds withing the first year.

Seemed like a sensible idea.


Sounds like a very sensible plan. Make sure to check out the educational systems and healthcare systems.
Oh, the banks are governmentally managed there as well.

586 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:56:58pm

re: #576 notutopia

It's not just Hugo. There is great political and economic strife between Nicaragua and Costa.
But, I must say, the flora and fauna make up for the border strife. Just stay away from the border.

And out of the coastal jungles....

587 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:57:17pm

re: #583 ladycatnip

Wonder if he'll ever admit he's not divine.

Can't he just eat his waffle?

588 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:57:19pm

re: #419 Jim in Virginia

Except for the giant puppets, I'm in. (We need giant puupets!)
What about the borders and immigration? A national ID card and a guest worker program?

Were it mine to solve, I'd point out that this country has a long tradition of immigration and has welcomed citizens who have contributed from every corner of the world. We also have a dynamic economy that needs to maintain a regulated flow of migrant workers of various skills into and out of the country.

But as welcoming people we must insist (quite reasonably) that people enter through the doors rather than tunneling into the Living Room or climbing through the windows. That translates into policy as -

1) Border obstacles sufficient to force 99% of entrants through ports of entry / border stations.

2) A migrant worker program that basically enforces our existing laws (rather than letting both the regulator and regulated ignore them) with an eye for making them more flexible while making penalties steeper so that more come into compliance.

3) Withholding Federal funds and cooperation from state and local authorities that do not notify the United States ICE when, in the course of executing other duties and providing services, one determines that a person in their jurisdiction is not in the country legally.

4) A blunt set of foreign policy statements that

A) puts the country of Mexico on the hook for running a sh*thole.

B) that explicitly acknowledges that we understand that anyone not in the upper class (because there ain't much of a middle class) in Mexico would be insane to not want to come to the United States for a better, fairer life.

C) that lets Mexico know that we will no longer tolerate their race baiting regarding "the gringos" that they feed domestic audiences in order to justify their double standards they maintain relating to US/Mexico relations. Igniting ancient antagonisms don't server Mexico and won't make US representatives in any way contrite. The US would love nothing more to see a prosperous stable Mexico on par with the US such that we can have the same border environment that we have with Canada. An honest and effective Mexican government that resists playing the race card will go a long way to making that happen and it is in the economic and social interests of the United States for that to happen.

589 screaming_eagle  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:58:09pm

re: #577 OldLineTexan

Church-going Baptist Democrats are sparse on the ground around here. The party left them years ago.

Well it's only because they don't belong in a Union. The Union trumps.

590 esch  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:58:12pm

re: #587 Mich-again

Can't he just eat his waffle?

Or the Harry Potter version:

Can't he just beat his Quaffle?

591 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:58:45pm

re: #590 esch

Or the Harry Potter version:

Can't he just beat his Quaffle?

When you do that, Baby Voldemort cries.

592 Spiny Norman  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:58:47pm

For those who talk of bringing back inter-city passenger rail, as if it were some panacea, remember the reason why the Federal government took over passenger rail service (AmTrak): the railroads were losing so much money on passenger service it was threatening to bankrupt them all. It was a Federal bailout that was quite controversial at the time.

593 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:58:52pm

re: #545 jorline

Poor grenma only got 11 comments before she passed away.
//

grenma is one of those who appears to have registered for the sole purpose of being able to chime in on one of the ID threads.

Now, why would they start in on a dead thread from yesterday?

Afraid to jump in and argue their points around everyone else?
Hoping to get their points in unnoticed?

594 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 7:59:36pm

re: #566 christheprofessor

Yo trabajo en Ciudad de Mexico.

Actually everything is OK. How about you?

Glad you seem to be catching a break.

You are one of our more astute and erudite contributors.

595 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:03pm

Nighty night!

596 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:06pm
597 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:14pm

re: #583 ladycatnip

NY is not happy with Obama

I heard Obama Speak on the drive into work, immediately went to the boss's office and asked if that $500k limit applied to me.

A good laugh was had by all.

598 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:16pm

re: #586 Thanos

And out of the coastal jungles....

Unfortunately for safety.But, that's where I have devoted most of medical volunteering. The jungle is so beautiful Thanos. Unbelievably beautiful and real.

599 brookly red  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:41pm

re: #583 ladycatnip

OT - NY is not happy with Obama. Scroll down just a tad and there's the ubiquitous messianic pic of the O. Even angelic messengers in the Bible forbade men to bow and worship. Wonder if he'll ever admit he's not divine.

NY is a results driven environment.

600 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:47pm

re: #592 Spiny Norman

For those who talk of bringing back inter-city passenger rail, as if it were some panacea, remember the reason why the Federal government took over passenger rail service (AmTrak): the railroads were losing so much money on passenger service it was threatening to bankrupt them all. It was a Federal bailout that was quite controversial at the time.

I'm not in favor of mass transit, but I do favor electrifying streets for private cars. The whole US workforce is changing the way they work, more of you are goign to be working at home most of the time like me in the not too distant future.

601 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:00:57pm

re: #542 SanFranciscoZionist

Aribert Heim was the nightmare.

Born June 28, 1914 in Radkersburg, Austria, Heim joined the local Nazi party in 1935, three years before Austria was bloodlessly annexed by Germany.

He later joined the Waffen SS and was assigned to Mauthausen, a concentration camp near Linz, Austria, as a camp doctor in October and November 1941.

While there, witnesses told investigators, he worked closely with SS pharmacist Erich Wasicky on such gruesome experiments as injecting various solutions into Jewish prisoners' hearts to see which killed them the fastest.

I'm sure a lot of the citizens were remorseful of the German culture of that time, but Heim ran and hid.

602 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:02:01pm

re: #561 Occasional Reader

Good night.

Good night, OR.

603 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:02:04pm

re: #598 notutopia

Unfortunately for safety.But, that's where I have devoted most of medical volunteering. The jungle is so beautiful Thanos. Unbelievably beautiful and real.

Definitely, it's just not for everyone. Lots of people freak when they see Costa Ricans hauling a howler monkey off on a pole for instance.

604 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:02:27pm

re: #600 Thanos

I'm not in favor of mass transit, but I do favor electrifying streets for private cars.

That's old tech. Just provide recharge in the parking lot at work. That way cars can travel on mix of streets, not just those with wires.

605 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:03:17pm

re: #601 jorline

Aribert Heim was the nightmare.


I'm sure a lot of the citizens were remorseful of the German culture of that time, but Heim ran and hid.

What a pity he led such a long life.

606 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:03:49pm

re: #474 notutopia

I have a picture of me standing on the boarding landing of the 934 St. Charles Ave. trolley when I was a tike. I blew it up to an 8X10. It brings back memories of hot, humid, fun rides to Canal St. to go shopping with my Grandma.

notutopia - still here?
Love your description, I'm there, I can hear and feel the streetcar ride you're talking about.

607 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:04:22pm

re: #604 itellu3times

That's old tech. Just provide recharge in the parking lot at work. That way cars can travel on mix of streets, not just those with wires.

You don't electrify every street, just the main drags, the cars charge on the long haul roads. You put a meter on the car.

608 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:04:39pm

re: #588 karmic_inquisitor

What would you propose we do if the Mexican Government fails or a full blown war breaks out between the druglords y la Policia.

609 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:04:46pm

re: #507 reine.de.tout

Where?
I'm checking out spy off and on and don't see much going on but the usual.

I've been watching LOSTt, but it seems Sal has the only other lost soul well in hand back there. I like to stay away when the words get really big and the earlier ones with short words seem to have retired, or been retired.

610 swamprat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:04:56pm

re: #579 Thanos

One of my favorite ships, I have this print hanging on my wall because it gives me inspiration.

one of my favorite quotes:

A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are for. ~John A. Shedd, Salt from My Attic

611 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:05:28pm

re: #593 reine.de.tout

grenma is one of those who appears to have registered for the sole purpose of being able to chime in on one of the ID threads.

Now, why would they start in on a dead thread from yesterday?

Afraid to jump in and argue their points around everyone else?
Hoping to get their points in unnoticed?

Hi, reine.

Remember A Van ? who loved the dead threads and was full of insults?

612 yochanan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:05:44pm

Chicago has 3 different kinds of rail mass transit,
1 heavy rail diesel rail run on standard rail lines, currently run by METRA they used to be run by all the railroads. remember Chicago used to be the nation's rail hub. and each rail road ran its own passenger system local and national lines public trans became part of METRA system and national rail ended up as AMTRAK (and we all know how well that works)
2 parts of the old interurban electric lines still exist
3 CTA subway / 'L' lines

closed down
1 street car system]
2 electric rail lines western sub a. e. line as well as a electric line between Chicago and Milwaukee

613 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:05:49pm

re: #603 Thanos

Definitely, it's just not for everyone. Lots of people freak when they see Costa Ricans hauling a howler monkey off on a pole for instance.

Or crocks out of the watering hole. Or poisonous orange dart frogs from the hibiscus trees. The howlers were my morning alarm clock.

614 esch  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:05:59pm

re: #605 SanFranciscoZionist

What a pity he led such a long life.

Well. I've heard intestinal cancer is a really painful way to go. Worse than what I've got.

615 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:06:01pm

re: #534 itellu3times

need a skull and crossbones in the spy when someone goes down

heh.
That would be fun.

616 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:06:24pm

re: #545 jorline

Poor grenma only got 11 comments before she passed away.
//

Pretty sure that creationist troll was male. 'Grenma' is a Hungarian word.

617 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:06:34pm

re: #605 SanFranciscoZionist

What a pity he led such a long life.

ding

618 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:06:52pm
619 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:07:18pm

re: #616 Charles

Pretty sure that creationist troll was male. 'Grenma' is a Hungarian word.

What is the standard procedure for determining the gender of a troll nowadays?

620 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:07:27pm

re: #611 jorline

Hi, reine.

Remember A Van ? who loved the dead threads and was full of insults?

Oh, yes indeed.
He may actually have said something worth paying attention to, except it was hard to get through all the invective.

621 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:07:30pm

re: #592 Spiny Norman

For those who talk of bringing back inter-city passenger rail, as if it were some panacea, remember the reason why the Federal government took over passenger rail service (AmTrak): the railroads were losing so much money on passenger service it was threatening to bankrupt them all. It was a Federal bailout that was quite controversial at the time.

Yup, and then they built some nice new pretty passenger cars and sent them down the same old tired out rail lines that would not support speeds greater than about 50mph. Big step forward from the stage coach - not. Rail will never be viable in this country. If it were, there would have been private players long before now. What a stupid anachronism.

622 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:07:44pm

re: #466 buzzsawmonkey

Interesting--though I'd have to say that I never heard of anyone suing for "health effects" back when the entire city of Chicago was covered by overhead wires on all major and some minor thoroughfares, nor were there any major dangers to the public from broken wires and the like.

Again, these systems existed for decades in most major cities, without any sort of incident; why they should now be considered perilous is beyond me. Yes, electricity is more expensive--but so is oil, after all, and batteries of any sort are cumbersome as hell.

Agree. But that was a different era. I remember San Francisco had electric buses.

We tore out a lot of rail and wire infrastructure in the 60s/70s/80s that would be very expensive to put back in.

But the line loss is a very real issue. I suspect that it has been a big factor in not building new systems given how much the cost of electricity has gone up relative to other things. As for existing, I suppose many bore that cost up to where the variable cost of electricity exceeded the fares.

623 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:08:55pm

re: #575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sounds like a word in a "Fu Manchu" or a "Dr. Phibes" movie doesn't it.

Hmm, Dr. Watson perhaps?

624 yochanan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:09:11pm

i remember riding the northwestern railroad owned and run rail when i went to high school i even remember when they had a snack/bar car on it

625 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:09:12pm

re: #609 Naso Tang

I've been watching LOSTt, but it seems Sal has the only other lost soul well in hand back there. I like to stay away when the words get really big and the earlier ones with short words seem to have retired, or been retired.

Yes, I know exactly how you feel.

My poor brain gets lost really fast in some of those threads . . .

626 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:09:14pm

re: #621 The Shadow Do

Yup, and then they built some nice new pretty passenger cars and sent them down the same old tired out rail lines that would not support speeds greater than about 50mph. Big step forward from the stage coach - not. Rail will never be viable in this country. If it were, there would have been private players long before now. What a stupid anachronism.

Long haul rail is still viable, and doing great business in freight.

627 jorline  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:09:22pm

re: #616 Charles

Pretty sure that creationist troll was male. 'Grenma' is a Hungarian word.

Hard to tell the sex when they're still tadpole hatchlings.

I'm rusty on my Hungarian...help on the translation?

628 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:10:03pm

re: #624 yochanan

i remember riding the northwestern railroad owned and run rail when i went to high school i even remember when they had a snack/bar car on it

You didn't walk uphill 5 miles in the snow to get to school?

629 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:11:17pm

re: #571 Naso Tang

indefatigable....cool, I had forgotten that one.

A great word, but I'm not sure I've ever actually heard it pronounced . . . I've only ever seen it in writing.

630 JCM  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:11:18pm
631 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:11:52pm

re: #619 astronmr20

What is the standard procedure for determining the gender of a troll nowadays?

Well, my mother used to work with a rabbi who, in turn, used to be a vet. So when I got a hamster, we took it to the rabbi to ask about the gender.

Do we have a rabbi present? Deacon? Eucharistic minister?

632 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:11:56pm

re: #583 ladycatnip

OT - NY is not happy with Obama. Scroll down just a tad and there's the ubiquitous messianic pic of the O. Even angelic messengers in the Bible forbade men to bow and worship. Wonder if he'll ever admit he's not divine.

The halo, the downcast eyes. I don't know what to say. Someone explain this to me. How can these people, who usually don't have one good thing to say about Christians, worship this very ordinary man like he's Jesus?

633 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:12:24pm

These quotes originally had one function. (to explain the ins and outs of evolution.) But they have been adapted to another. (to pull the wool over the eyes of the audience, and give them a sense that it's the scientists who are lying and that you've caught them at it.

634 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:12:46pm

re: #606 reine.de.tout

notutopia - still here?
Love your description, I'm there, I can hear and feel the streetcar ride you're talking about.

Here. The rumble, rumble, and then whish of air blowing in through the half windows when it got up to speed. And the screeeeech of wheels, clang, clang of the bell, and ding of the chord you pulled to tell the conductor it was your stop coming up.

635 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:12:47pm

re: #626 Thanos

Long haul rail is still viable, and doing great business in freight.

Yes, freight. Passenger traffic, no way. I still remember taking a train from Chicago to Florida many moons ago. Three days of bump, bump, bump. stop, slow, bump, bump, bump, stop, slow....... Pure unadulterated misery.

636 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:12:51pm

re: #579 Thanos

One of my favorite ships, I have this print hanging on my wall because it gives me inspiration.

That's interesting. I can just picture the barely literate seamen of the 1700's telling their wives what ship they were sailing on, not to mention how to pronounce it.......

637 slokat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:13:24pm

re: #534 itellu3times

need a skull and crossbones in the spy when someone goes down

I was thinking that Karma should include the up/down dings that the poster gives, besides the up/down dings that are received... if it's really Karma.

638 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:13:33pm

re: #583 ladycatnip

What about A-Rod or Eli Manning or any one of the very many NY athletes that make more money than that? Don't try to tell me that professional sports are private businesses. Ha, Thats a common misconception. Their stadiums are funded with public money, the police handle unruly crowds in the streets and traffic snarls, Congress protects their antitrust status in the market, their business partners in cable TV have a government granted monopoly, Their foreign employees get to circumvent all the alien worker regulations, and of course, if they were any other business, OSHA would shut them down for all the workplace-related injuries.

639 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:13:42pm

re: #609 Naso Tang

I've been watching LOSTt, but it seems Sal has the only other lost soul well in hand back there. I like to stay away when the words get really big and the earlier ones with short words seem to have retired, or been retired.


Seriously brillant.

640 yochanan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:14:00pm

re: #628 reine.de.tout

You didn't walk uphill 5 miles in the snow to get to school?

both ways

641 esch  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:14:13pm

re: #632 Bobblehead

Like most people, they want to believe in someone/thing greater than themselves. For the left this almost always comes down to cult of personalities.

642 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:14:16pm

I'm back, my brain hurts, LOST episode hurting brain, good hurt, feels real good.

643 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:15:18pm

re: #629 reine.de.tout

A great word, but I'm not sure I've ever actually heard it pronounced . . . I've only ever seen it in writing.

Try it, fast. It's nice almost sounds like a short sentence in Hungarian, or something else I don't know.

644 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:15:19pm

re: #619 astronmr20

What is the standard procedure for determining the gender of a troll nowadays?

I ain't peeking between the legs.

645 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:15:20pm

re: #619 astronmr20

What is the standard procedure for determining the gender of a troll nowadays?

Lift 'em, split 'em, and peek. Goggles and nose plugs optional.

646 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:15:27pm

re: #632 Bobblehead

The halo, the downcast eyes. I don't know what to say. Someone explain this to me. How can these people, who usually don't have one good thing to say about Christians, worship this very ordinary man like he's Jesus?

They have empty lives. Plain and simple.

647 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:15:57pm

re: #634 notutopia

Here. The rumble, rumble, and then whish of air blowing in through the half windows when it got up to speed. And the screeeeech of wheels, clang, clang of the bell, and ding of the chord you pulled to tell the conductor it was your stop coming up.

My grandmother's house was one or two blocks off St. Charles, and we could hear the streetcars at night. Oh, golly - was a great place for a kid to visit.
Did you grow up there?

648 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:00pm

re: #645 Charles

Ewww.

649 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:13pm

re: #640 yochanan

both ways

Quick and good.

650 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:16pm

re: #645 Charles

Lift 'em, split 'em, and peek. Goggles and nose plugs optional.

Heh.

651 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:42pm

re: #642 Walter L. Newton

I'm back, my brain hurts, LOST episode hurting brain, good hurt, feels real good.

Bah!

Missed it tonite. Please not to tell.

I'll have to hit it up on ABC.com later, or itunes.

652 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:45pm

re: #642 Walter L. Newton

I'm back, my brain hurts, LOST episode hurting brain, good hurt, feels real good.

Howdy, Walter.

653 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:50pm

re: #632 Bobblehead

The halo, the downcast eyes. I don't know what to say. Someone explain this to me. How can these people, who usually don't have one good thing to say about Christians, worship this very ordinary man like he's Jesus?

This whole thing would be quite amusing if we were watching it unfold somewhere else - Whackostan or somesuch. Instead, it's disgusting and alarming.

654 notutopia  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:16:56pm

re: #647 reine.de.tout

My grandmother's house was one or two blocks off St. Charles, and we could hear the streetcars at night. Oh, golly - was a great place for a kid to visit.
Did you grow up there?

Yes. Dauphine St.

655 So?  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:17:16pm

How about Van Halen’s theory of "Jump"?

656 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:17:26pm

The producers of LOST, have been saying for 5 years that they had all the basic plot arcs worked out with this show, and they knew where they were going from the beginning.

Some in the general public have been saying they have been making up this show as they went along.

Tonight's episode was the beginning of the end for those who thinks that this has been written at the whims of the writers.

Brilliant.

657 So?  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:17:47pm

re: #655 So?

How about Van Halen’s theory of "Jump"?

What about, I meant what about....

658 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:17:47pm

re: #643 Naso Tang

Try it, fast. It's nice almost sounds like a short sentence in Hungarian, or something else I don't know.

LOL!
I can only pronounce it in my head. Not out loud. It comes out all garbled.

659 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:17:57pm

re: #641 esch

Like most people, they want to believe in someone/thing greater than themselves. For the left this almost always comes down to cult of personalities.

Oh I understand the cult of personality thing but I've never understood the attraction to Obama. He has always left me cold.

660 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:17:57pm

re: #652 lobo91

Howdy, Walter.

Hi.

661 lobo91  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:18:15pm

re: #653 Killer Tomato

This whole thing would be quite amusing if we were watching it unfold somewhere else - Whackostan or somesuch. Instead, it's disgusting and alarming.

Absolutely.

662 yochanan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:18:38pm

when i moved into chicago my first apt was 50 feet from the 'L' line after a couple of days you stopped hearing the noise.

663 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:18:45pm

re: #651 astronmr20

Bah!

Missed it tonite. Please not to tell.

I'll have to hit it up on ABC.com later, or itunes.

I will not say anything more about the actual content of tonight's episode. I respect the fact that you do not want spoilers.

664 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:19:05pm

Walter,

I can't wait.

Been a close follower of the series from the start, and I hardly watch any TV (which is odd considering my profession).

Oh BTW everyone- no spoilers!

665 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:19:22pm

re: #647 reine.de.tout

My grandmother's house was one or two blocks off St. Charles, and we could hear the streetcars at night. Oh, golly - was a great place for a kid to visit.
Did you grow up there?

I remember street cars in Europe. Open platforms like London buses. If they slowed down enough one could jump on or off while moving. Would never work in the US. Insurance against stupidity and all that....

666 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:19:27pm

re: #608 Mich-again

What would you propose we do if the Mexican Government fails or a full blown war breaks out between the druglords y la Policia.

Assuming outright chaos in Mexico on a path toward a war lord balkanization like Somalia/Afghanistan-

* occupy the cities in the northern border zone

* create obstacles in depth in the deserts south of the occupied zone

* channelize traffic in and out of said zone to a few highways with checkpoints and patrol other areas with UAVs.

Not much else you can do, except simply let the chaos spill over into the US.

667 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:19:42pm

re: #654 notutopia

Yes. Dauphine St.

Delachaise St., right across from the emergency entrance to Touro (which probably is no longer the emergency entrance).

Familiar with Allgoods?

668 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:19:56pm

re: #645 Charles

Lift 'em, split 'em, and peek. Goggles and nose plugs optional.


HAHAHAHA...
You're on a roll tonight Charles.

669 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:20:19pm

re: #607 Thanos

You don't electrify every street, just the main drags, the cars charge on the long haul roads. You put a meter on the car.

Too expensive to set up, to hard to couple moving vehicle to power, too dangerous with open conductors, too much disruption when it fails, etc. Batteries are much better now, and most urban transport is short trips.

I remember those SciAm stories about urban systems, back in the 1960s, seemed like a good idea at the time, sort of. Not good enough to actually do, tho.

670 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:20:21pm

re: #651 astronmr20

Bah!

Missed it tonite. Please not to tell.

I'll have to hit it up on ABC.com later, or itunes.

Seriously, do you think it would make the slightest bit of difference if we told?

671 astronmr20  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:21:25pm

re: #670 Naso Tang

Seriously, do you think it would make the slightest bit of difference if we told?

Yes! Take what you will from me, but leave me my surprises. And Lost revelations.

672 slokat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:21:29pm

re: #645 Charles

Lift 'em, split 'em, and peek. Goggles and nose plugs optional.

Giggles and nose plugs optional.

...is how I first read that.

673 yochanan  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:21:35pm

re: #645 Charles

Lift 'em, split 'em, and peek. Goggles and nose plugs optional.

REMEMBER TO BE UP TODAY FOR YOUR SHOTS!

674 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:21:53pm

re: #664 astronmr20

Walter, I can't wait. Been a close follower of the series from the start, and I hardly watch any TV (which is odd considering my profession). Oh BTW everyone- no spoilers!

I rarely watch any TV. On Jan 1st, 2008 a friend of mine brought over the 1st season on DVD. We watched four episodes and I was hooked. From Jan 2008 until Feb 28th 2008, I caught up on 3 whole seasons and started to watch season 4 on TV that night of the 28th.

I am so wrapped up in the show that I write front page articles for a major LOST blog.

It's still the only hour of anything I watch on TV.

675 swamprat  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:22:04pm

re: #632 Bobblehead

The halo, the downcast eyes. I don't know what to say. Someone explain this to me. How can these people, who usually don't have one good thing to say about Christians, worship this very ordinary man like he's Jesus?

simple

676 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:22:04pm

re: #665 Naso Tang

I remember street cars in Europe. Open platforms like London buses. If they slowed down enough one could jump on or off while moving. Would never work in the US. Insurance against stupidity and all that....

The gubmint is slightly overconcerned with my health and welfare.

677 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:22:32pm

re: #658 reine.de.tout

LOL!
I can only pronounce it in my head. Not out loud. It comes out all garbled.

That's what I said. Like Hungarian.

678 Teacake!  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:23:27pm
654 notutopia 2/04/09
Yes. Dauphine St.

Well, hey there ! Greetings from New Orleans!

679 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:24:07pm

re: #671 astronmr20

Yes! Take what you will from me, but leave me my surprises. And Lost revelations.

If I was a really evil person, I would say DO NOT READ BELOW THIS POINT! (but I'm nice, right?)

who are you?

680 So?  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:24:19pm

re: #656 Walter L. Newton

The producers of LOST, have been saying for 5 years that they had all the basic plot arcs worked out with this show, and they knew where they were going from the beginning.

Some in the general public have been saying they have been making up this show as they went along.

Tonight's episode was the beginning of the end for those who thinks that this has been written at the whims of the writers.

Brilliant.

I only watched a few episodes during the very first season of LOST, since I really didn't like the show. But my take on it at the time was that they had all died in the plane crash, and they were just living out their lives on another plane of existence as "ghosts" or spirits for lack of a better description. And that one day, they would discover that they had been dead all along and all was an illusion. Now if the producers of LOST would like to use my fantastic idea to end this series, please write me a BIG FAT CHEQUE and I will gladly cash it. You can reach me at [Link: www.myspace.com...]

681 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:24:45pm

re: #670 Naso Tang

Seriously, do you think it would make the slightest bit of difference if we told?

Are you really suggesting that it's alright to discuss the episode if he hadn't seen it. There are things we could discuss about the show without spoiling it for others. This is a blog accessible by people all over the world.

Episode 4 of season 5 doesn't air worldwide on the same night. Some countries are up to a week behind us.

682 avanti  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:25:46pm

re: #632 Bobblehead

The halo, the downcast eyes. I don't know what to say. Someone explain this to me. How can these people, who usually don't have one good thing to say about Christians, worship this very ordinary man like he's Jesus?

The "halo" appears to be the Presidential seal or the like, out of focus because of the depth of field.

683 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:26:21pm

re: #681 Walter L. Newton

In some countries it's January 28th?

684 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:27:51pm

re: #680 So?

I only watched a few episodes during the very first season of LOST, since I really didn't like the show. But my take on it at the time was that they had all died in the plane crash, and they were just living out their lives on another plane of existence as "ghosts" or spirits for lack of a better description. And that one day, they would discover that they had been dead all along and all was an illusion. Now if the producers of LOST would like to use my fantastic idea to end this series, please write me a BIG FAT CHEQUE and I will gladly cash it. You can reach me at [Link: www.myspace.com...]

Nope, they said right from the beginning that this is not purgatory, hell, a dream, in their minds, a drug induced experiment or any sort of experiment, another planet, heaven etc.

With in the mythos of the show, every thing is really happening, people who are dead are dead, people who are alive are alive and people who appear, well, there is a scientific reason for that too (if you have watched this season, you'll understand).

Very clever show.

685 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:28:08pm

re: #666 karmic_inquisitor

Assuming outright chaos in Mexico on a path toward a war lord balkanization like Somalia/Afghanistan-

* occupy the cities in the northern border zone

* create obstacles in depth in the deserts south of the occupied zone

* channelize traffic in and out of said zone to a few highways with checkpoints and patrol other areas with UAVs.

Not much else you can do, except simply let the chaos spill over into the US.


Bad idea, to occupy any part of Mexico. Just close the border. Berlin Wall closed, except of course anyone is welcome to LEAVE.

686 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:28:21pm

re: #681 Walter L. Newton

Are you really suggesting that it's alright to discuss the episode if he hadn't seen it. There are things we could discuss about the show without spoiling it for others. This is a blog accessible by people all over the world./blockquote>

Hmm. What's a tag for tongue in cheek, wickedly? Did you just wake from a nap or what?

687 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:29:31pm

re: #683 Killer Tomato

In some countries it's January 28th?

No, all episode first air in the US. In some countries it's the same night, others sometime in the next week. Some countries it's not until months later.

Tonights episode air Sunday night in the UK.

688 Bobblehead  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:29:56pm

re: #683 Killer Tomato

In some countries it's January 28th?

It could be. Perhaps, in some other plane of existence.

689 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:30:39pm

re: #686 Naso Tang

Er, no, I said I just finished watching this weeks episode of LOST. I didn't understand your remark was tongue in cheek, sorry. I apologize.

690 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:31:04pm

re: #687 Walter L. Newton

Sorry Walter, forgot the /
I'm not really that much of an idiot.
(I think)

691 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:33:03pm

re: #683 Killer Tomato

In some countries it's January 28th?

In some countries, it's the 14th century. They're a week of centuries behind.

692 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:35:49pm

re: #689 Walter L. Newton

Er, no, I said I just finished watching this weeks episode of LOST. I didn't understand your remark was tongue in cheek, sorry. I apologize.

No offense. No apology needed. I still think everyone can see my face while I type. Perhaps if I learned to use a few more words like indefatigable (upthread a bit, fyi) there would be less misunderstandings. ;)

693 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:37:34pm

re: #162 Spar Kling

Anyone who quotes someone else has the moral responsibility to not misrepresent the intent of the passage that it came from. However, in some sense, ALL quotes can be considered out of context. Sometimes people use a shocking statement to gain attention, followed by an explanation of what they meant. Obviously, these sorts of quotes are pounced on by the press.

The mined quote from the "Red Queen" hypothesis doesn't seem so distorted to me, and it still fits quite nicely within the framework of punctuated equilibrium. Perhaps the point that the speaker was trying to make is that the theory of evolution is still evolving, no surprise, and that students should be taught as much. I wouldn't know since his quote was also taken out of context.

To not double-check a quote, especially before presenting it to a large audience, court of law, or public hearing is irresponsible and lazy. The same goes for "facts" and statistic such as the one Nancy Pelosi has been brandishing about the 500 million Americans.

Maybe she was also counting the aborted babies in the U.S. as well . . .

-sk

That's gutter-grad bs and you know it, or ought to. It is clear from the provided context that the scientists in question actually mean almost uniformly and entirely the opposite of what the snipped bits are tailored to represent them as meaning.

694 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:37:58pm

re: #692 Naso Tang

No offense. No apology needed. I still think everyone can see my face while I type. Perhaps if I learned to use a few more words like indefatigable (upthread a bit, fyi) there would be less misunderstandings. ;)

Now, Naso - would actually increase misunderstandings, imo, because no one would understand you because they would think you were speaking Hungarian.

695 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:40:14pm

re: #694 reine.de.tout

Now, Naso - would actually increase misunderstandings, imo, because no one would understand you because they would think you were speaking Hungarian.

But not understand is better than misunderstand, me thinks.

696 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:40:45pm

Well, no matter whether it's last week or several centuries ago, it's now 11:40pm here on the eastern seaboard of the US - so off to bed for me.
G'night all!

697 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:41:37pm

re: #685 lostlakehiker

Bad idea, to occupy any part of Mexico. Just close the border. Berlin Wall closed, except of course anyone is welcome to LEAVE.

My impulse is to agree with your instinct on that. But I live near the border and things have gotten worse. The criminality in the northern frontier (just over our border) is pretty bad. Tijuana is getting to be as dangerous as Baghdad.

If you look at Google Earth and "fly over" the northern border towns you will see that they are smack up against the border. You look at the infrastructure and see in 3d that these cities are basically attached to the US. They completely depend on the US. And many now have tunnels running under the border on a scale bigger than anything in Gaza. All of that spells trouble and an inability to seal the border.

So I look at it militarily and the terrain is ideal for obstacles in depth. From a humanitarian standpoint, the northern cities will benefit and survive in peace under such an arrangement.

An alternative would be to "fall back" and create the same buffer on US soil. But that would mean abandoning cities like Brownsville, El Paso and San Diego.

Anyway - I don't think we could seal the border in such an environment - it isn't sealed now.

698 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:42:43pm

re: #636 Naso Tang

That's interesting. I can just picture the barely literate seamen of the 1700's telling their wives what ship they were sailing on, not to mention how to pronounce it.......

Most often it was called "the Indy"

699 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:43:29pm

re: #695 Naso Tang

But not understand is better than misunderstand, me thinks.

Well, you've got a point.

700 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:44:23pm

re: #698 Thanos

Hah. That's interesting.

701 jcw46  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:44:37pm

Religion may be an "evolutionary" and a "survival of the fittest" adaptive technique. "atheism will always be a hard sell".


OOPSY!

702 jcw46  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:46:50pm

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

Of course.

///

703 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:48:35pm

re: #697 karmic_inquisitor

My impulse is to agree with your instinct on that. But I live near the border and things have gotten worse. The criminality in the northern frontier (just over our border) is pretty bad. Tijuana is getting to be as dangerous as Baghdad.

If you look at Google Earth and "fly over" the northern border towns you will see that they are smack up against the border. You look at the infrastructure and see in 3d that these cities are basically attached to the US. They completely depend on the US. And many now have tunnels running under the border on a scale bigger than anything in Gaza. All of that spells trouble and an inability to seal the border.

So I look at it militarily and the terrain is ideal for obstacles in depth. From a humanitarian standpoint, the northern cities will benefit and survive in peace under such an arrangement.

An alternative would be to "fall back" and create the same buffer on US soil. But that would mean abandoning cities like Brownsville, El Paso and San Diego.

Anyway - I don't think we could seal the border in such an environment - it isn't sealed now.

How would your defense in depth work? I'm curious.

704 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:49:34pm

re: #685 lostlakehiker

Bad idea, to occupy any part of Mexico. Just close the border. Berlin Wall closed, except of course anyone is welcome to LEAVE.

You seal the border. I'll watch.

/

705 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:53:10pm

re: #698 Thanos

Don't know how into these things you are, but in naval items, I have one of the same time period. An original 3 x 4 Laurie & Whittle naval chart of the "West Indies" from 1794. May very well have been on board the "Indy" when she made the trip to the Galapagos (ain't Google great).

It's over my desk. I like looking at it. Reeks of adventure.

706 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 8:54:48pm

The witching hour approaches.

Goodnight.

707 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 9:03:13pm

Ah, there's our first down-dinger.

708 phishwhisperer  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 10:07:12pm

If this wasn’t so serious it would be laughable. I think Mcleroy is actually a cartoon character. I have two children that attend Texas schools and find this to be very disturbing. This is exactly what’s going on with the science of global warming. I recently visited several science websites for children and was amazed at the half truths being presented. Children are being shown pieces of the puzzle that support a certain political ideology rather than being presented with all of the pieces and allowed to form a truly educated opinion. What kind of scientist are we going to have in the future? A future science class: Pre-decided outcome by factual engineering 101. We’re sliding back into the dark ages!

709 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 10:16:31pm

re: #703 Dark_Falcon

How would your defense in depth work? I'm curious.

Well if you go on the interstate 8 at the sand dunes west of Yuma (where the American Canal goes under the freeway), there are a series of obstacles that the Border Patrol (I assume) placed to the south of the freeway.

Here is the area in google maps.

[Link: maps.google.com...]

The obstacles they came up with look like triangle trusses like in this but much beefier. Those trusses are placed in a line like a fence and staked to the ground with pilings and cable. This is done on what is a desert floor that has the density of a abandoned dirt road, so no non-military vehicle is going to get through it by ramming it.

That obstacle isn't the border fence - it is supplementary and further in. It exists to delay anyone who managed to get past the border fence in an area that is observed. That is what "obstacles in depth" are about. My own experience involves adding mines to the equation but I doubt that would ever be contemplated. Just the same, you can shape an area with obstacles and force movement into certain places.

You would not have to occupy a buffer zone in large unpopulated swaths of land along the border - just put the border towns out of reach to war lords and their equipment so they can't mass and infiltrate the US. And they would want to take their civil war into Mexican communities in the US Southwest as they compete for drug money and weapons.

710 ladycatnip  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 10:33:40pm

#632 Bobblehead

The halo, the downcast eyes. I don't know what to say. Someone explain this to me. How can these people, who usually don't have one good thing to say about Christians, worship this very ordinary man like he's Jesus?

Obamania is reminiscent of ancient Rome where the Caesar's were thought to be gods. Same with the Japanese - the emperors were worshiped as a deity.

711 VioletTiger  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 10:38:59pm
Do the climate change kooks do this?


Thre: #220 MandyManners


They data mine. The pick out the bits of data that fit their agenda, while ignoring any bits that don't fit. They plot up the bits of data they like and presto! instant science. This is why even good scientists get pulled into this black hole.

On the subject of the quote miners, did you see how many they have? I can't believe they go through all that trouble to distort.

712 Mr Secul  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 11:19:34pm

re: #3 JCM

How many creationists are trapped?

And it will have to be the Darwinists who do the heavy lifting to dig them out.

713 Mr Secul  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 11:28:15pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Did McLeroy know he was spewing lies or was he given a bunch of talking points by the DI?

That's the perennial question, are they: stupid, ignorant or dishonest?

Or some combination of the above?

Do they really just not know? Are they just a little dim? Or do they know exactly what they are saying and just don't care about the truth?

I think there are two main categories.

Those that know they are lying. They go out and find the quotes to mine.

The vast majority are the willfully ignorant. They avoid sites that pose a danger of educating them. Instead they go to the preprepared quote mines because they know that what they'll find there will be what they want to hear.

714 Spar Kling  Wed, Feb 4, 2009 11:42:28pm

re: #196 freetoken

You're missing a very important idea.

It wouldn't be the first time.

Science is built by adding knowledge to those who went previously, or by correcting their mistakes. In this method, the scientific method, one's viability of doing proper science is built upon the veracity of one's ability to reference previous work, and upon the integrity of the one doing the research.

This I know. But now you're missing something. Most major discoveries in Science are made against the tide of the popular scientific consensus. Those in the minority find it difficult to publish their papers among other things. Of course this is also true of crackpot theories so the challenge to each scientific community is to provide enough openness to allow open inquiry and discussion. Once a new theory becomes popular then it becomes subject to the verification (or falsification) that you're referring to. Whether magnetic monopoles exist would be an example.

Here we have in Texas the head of the board overlooking the teaching of science and scientific method... whose very methods are the antithesis of good science.

Oh, you mean like the established scientific fact of global warming? I'm against indoctrination in science classrooms whether it comes from Darwinists, Creationists (who should not be trying to teach religion in science classes), Intelligent Design advocates, or whatever. If there are weaknesses in current evolutionary theories, and there are, we should encourage students to think, collect data, propose hypotheses, etc. That is true Science, rather than the rote memorization of facts, terms, and formulas. Yeah, that's my soapbox.

As with AGW or any other subject around which one can find various emotionally driven debaters, throwing out abortion in the midst of a
discussion on evolution is simply a debating tactic.

Actually, I was trying to be ironic regarding Feinstein's recent gaffes.

-sk

715 freetoken  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 12:56:16am

re: #714 Spar Kling


Most major discoveries in Science are made against the tide of the popular scientific consensus.

First, I'm not sure your claim is factual. E.g., Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Schroedinger were not swimming against the crowd, but they were ahead of it. Some of their ideas took time to be debated in the science community, and then into the general populace, but I do not believe you could make a case that they were intentionally setting out on some sort of crusade against their peers.

Even if your claim were true, it would not be relevant here. The Texas SBOE is a political body doing politics, not science. The head of said board is masquerading as some sort of scientific luminary, but he does great injustice to the actual scientific endeavor and its principles.

Again, your attempt to throw AGW into the discussion is just a red herring. The Texas SBOE actions have little to nothing to do with the validity of AGW, or for that matter any idea in science; rather, their actions are over whether sectarian creationist religious doctrines will be allowed to sneak into public education.

716 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 3:39:11am

re: #175 Jetpilot1101

My pastor in Florida used that same scripture to ensure we as his congregation were not taking what he said as gospel truth just because he was a well known and influential pastor. That is one of the best verses in the Bible and I wish all Christians wold take it to heart.

Of course, the early Christians, when they studied Scripture, were reading only the Jewish scriptures ... there was no New Testament yet, and the Torah hadn't been finalized either.

It's kind of funny when people insist you can't be a Christian unless you take the entire Bible literally. If so how could there have been any Christians before the Bible (OT and NT) was completed?

717 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 4:14:01am
Oh, you mean like the established scientific fact of global warming?

Evolution and AGW are really not comparable. Evolution has been around for 150 years. If it really had serious flaws and weaknesses, they would have been revealed by now. If there was any evidence to falsify it, it would have been discovered by now. Instead, it has just gotten stronger over the decades as more and more evidence has been found to support it.

AGW hasn't been around that long and already hundreds of prominent scientists are questioning it and the data used to support it. There is no remotely comparable movement in the scientific community to question the basic fact of evolution. Scientists have already done that, and the vast majority of them no longer have any doubts that evolution is a fact. There are no "weaknesses" in the theory in the sense that it's a house of cards waiting to collapse. There are lots of things still to learn about evolution and how it works, and we should certainly teach kids to have inquiring minds about it ... but that doesn't mean presenting like any bright kid with a shovel, pick, and microscope is going to discover evolution's fatal flaw.

718 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 6:39:59am

The same guys also use quote mines to "prove" that the Founding Fathers were biblical fundamentalists; by implication, that you're not an American if you're not a biblical fundamentalist.

719 Amer-I-Can  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 6:59:10am

re: #11 Charles

Of course, by pointing out these deceptions and lies, I'm only proving that I'm obsessed, I hate Christians, and I'm bent on destroying the Republican Party by posting this boring stuff that nobody cares about.

Shame on you! That destructionist (is that really a word?) mentality will be the doom of us all. Doooooom I tell you, DOOOOOOM!

Oh,

/Sarc

720 eaglewingz08  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 8:14:02am

Perhaps you science folks can explain, that if natural selection only allows adaptation to the environment but does not affect the extinction rates of the species, then wouldn't it logically follow that natural selection cannot be the engine of evolution, otherwise wouldn't extinction rates have to change for the best adapting species (and/or for the longest lived)?

721 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 8:28:13am

re: #714 Spar Kling

I see you're still at it, trying to spin and distort to promote your creationist beliefs. You're a perfect example of exactly the kind of dishonesty we see in the article above, because you've lied repeatedly at LGF, and you're still doing it.

722 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 8:49:13am

re: #715 freetoken

First, I'm not sure your claim is factual.

It isn't.

Again, your attempt to throw AGW into the discussion is just a red herring.

That's what "Spar Kling" is reduced to, after he failed in his numerous attempts to spread pseudo-science, lie about his "degree in science," and claim to have a list of peer-reviewed papers on intelligent design that he never produced. Now he just pops in to throw out red herrings, like climate change and abortion, and make ridiculous unsupported statements like the one you pointed out.

723 Spar Kling  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 11:03:55am

re: #715 freetoken

First, I'm not sure your claim is factual. E.g., Newton, Maxwell,
Einstein, Schroedinger were not swimming against the crowd, but they
were ahead of it. Some of their ideas took time to be debated
in the science community, and then into the general populace, but I do
not believe you could make a case that they were intentionally setting
out on some sort of crusade against their peers.

Sure it is. What was Einstein's opinion on Schroedinger's ideas, for example. How about the work of Joseph Lister? And I'm only talking about major innovations being resisted.

Even if your claim were true, it would not be relevant here. The Texas SBOE is a political body doing politics, not science. The head of
said board is masquerading as some sort of scientific luminary, but he does great injustice to the actual scientific endeavor and its principles.

You're right. A political body should never determine the course of scientific investigation. Neither should judges. But that's really not my point here. I believe students in science classes need to be taught the method of science along with what we think we know. To teach dogmatically is anti-science.

Again, your attempt to throw AGW into the discussion is just a red herring.

No it's not. It is an example, in my opinion, how one scientific community can go wrong and what happens when politics gets into Science. However, this is a double-edged sword. This also shows by analogy what happens when a religious agenda gets into Science. This is why I've repeatedly stated here that religious beliefs should not, never no how be taught in science classes!

The Texas SBOE actions have little to nothing to do with the
validity of AGW, or for that matter any idea in science; rather, their
actions are over whether sectarian creationist religious doctrines will be allowed to sneak into public education.

And on this point, I agree completely with you. And thanks for not calling me names.

-sk

724 Spar Kling  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 11:41:10am

re: #717 Tigger2005

Evolution and AGW are really not comparable. Evolution has been around for 150 years. If it really had serious flaws and weaknesses,
they would have been revealed by now. If there was any evidence to
falsify it, it would have been discovered by now. Instead, it has just
gotten stronger over the decades as more and more evidence has been
found to support it.

Nicely put. While I think "not comparable" is an overstatement, you're right that the theory global warming is not yet at the same level of acceptance as the theory of evolution. 150 years makes a huge difference. But there is evidence that falsifies the theory of evolution (which has been rationalized). This is another subject.

AGW hasn't been around that long and already hundreds of prominent scientists are questioning it and the data used to support it. There is no remotely comparable movement in the scientific community to question the basic fact of evolution.

The problem is that adding improvements, new information to a genome has not been directly observed. Yes, we observe population dynamics, and we observe point mutations that remove a capability resulting in increased survival under certain hostile conditions. But this has been wrongly extrapolated to include new complexities and the evolution of life from planaria to pussycats. I truly believe there is another mechanism far more effective than point mutations involved, and I think there are tantalizing hints of it in the genome of the platypus.

Scientists have already done that, and the
vast majority of them no longer have any doubts that evolution is a
fact. There are no "weaknesses" in the theory in the sense that it's a
house of cards waiting to collapse.

Every scientific theory is a house of cards in the sense that new information or a better theory will indeed collapse the old one. This is a good thing and does not detract from Science.

There are lots of things still to learn about evolution and how it works, and we should certainly teach kids to have inquiring minds about it ... but that doesn't mean presenting like any bright kid with a shovel, pick, and microscope is going to discover evolution's fatal flaw.

Yes, I agree completely. I would add that in teaching the sciences, we should make sure to point out the weaknesses and mysteries in every theory that we teach. The result will be more kids pursuing a scientific career, also a good thing. And no, I do not want religious doctrine to enter into science classes.

-sk

725 Basho  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 11:45:34am

re: #720 eaglewingz08

Perhaps you science folks can explain, that if natural selection only allows adaptation to the environment but does not affect the extinction rates of the species, then wouldn't it logically follow that natural selection cannot be the engine of evolution, otherwise wouldn't extinction rates have to change for the best adapting species (and/or for the longest lived)?

Huh?...
Meh, I'll answer what I think you're point is:
Whenever a well adapted species is introduced into an area full of specialized species, the specialized ones suffer the risk of extinction and the adaptable ones thrive. Such adaptable, introduced animals have a special term: Invasive species.

726 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 11:59:50am

re: #724 Spar Kling

...there is evidence that falsifies the theory of evolution (which has been rationalized).

No, there is not, and you can't produce it. Just another lie.

727 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 12:24:31pm

re: #720 eaglewingz08

Perhaps you science folks can explain, that if natural selection only allows adaptation to the environment but does not affect the extinction rates of the species, then wouldn't it logically follow that natural selection cannot be the engine of evolution, otherwise wouldn't extinction rates have to change for the best adapting species (and/or for the longest lived)?

How do you think environmental selection works? The individual organisms possessing the physiological configurations or behavioral traits that are liabilities in the organism population's ecological niche do not survive to reproduce, so neither do the genes for such configurations and traits. In other words, they are selected out. They get extinguished. They become extinct.

And environmental conditions change, and many species do not produce fortuitous adapting mutations, and die out entirely. It is estimated that 99+% of terrestrial species that have existed in the 3 1/2 billion year history of life on earth are extinct. Of course, the 5 great extinctions, caused by sudden cataclysms such as major caldera eruptions and meteor or comet strikes, must be included. Talk about massive sudden environmental changes!

728 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 12:46:32pm

re: #723 Spar Kling

SK: What was Einstein's opinion on Schroedinger's ideas, for example. How about the work of Joseph Lister? And I'm only talking about major innovations being resisted.

Sal: Einstin's opinion of Schrodinger's work was good enough that they co-authored a theory together:

[Link: www.physicsforums.com...]

Lister's adaptation of Pasteur's work was accepted by the medical community within a few short years after he first suggested it.

SK: You're right. A political body should never determine the course of scientific investigation. Neither should judges. But that's really not my point here. I believe students in science classes need to be taught the method of science along with what we think we know. To teach dogmatically is anti-science.

Sal: It is not dogmatic to refuse to teach religious dogma in public high school science classes, in fact, it is unconstitutional to do so. And in a system with an executive that enforces laws, a legistlative that passes them, and a judiciary that interprets them, it is the job of judges to rule on whether a particular law - say, the law against teaching creationism in public high school science classes - is being transgressed. Judge Jones, in the Dover case, performed that job spectacularly, to enduring creationist dismay.

SK: No it's not. It is an example, in my opinion, how one scientific community can go wrong and what happens when politics gets into Science. However, this is a double-edged sword. This also shows by analogy what happens when a religious agenda gets into Science. This is why I've repeatedly stated here that religious beliefs should not, never no how be taught in science classes!

Sal: It has overwhelmingly been creationists who have politically endeavored to force their pet religious dogmas to be foisted off as empirical fact in public high school science classes. I do not see another major, well-funded external lobbying group, with masses of interconnected sympathizers, trying to either politically pressure the choosers of public high school curricula to embrace their agenda, or else actually get their own choosers elected or appointed to the posts.

729 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 12:59:43pm

re: #728 Salamantis


Lister's adaptation of Pasteur's work was accepted by the medical community within a few short years after he first suggested it.

And relativity theory, quantum mechanics, radical and paradigm shifting as they were, were also accepted within a few short years of their conception, as you would expect of theories that have real explanatory power, and that are actually confirmed by observations and experiments.

730 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 1:10:35pm

re: #724 Spar Kling

SK: While I think "not comparable" is an overstatement, you're right that the theory global warming is not yet at the same level of acceptance as the theory of evolution. 150 years makes a huge difference. But there is evidence that falsifies the theory of evolution (which has been rationalized). This is another subject.

Sal: You have been around here for some time, and have yet to provide a single shred of credible empirical evidence falsifying evolutionary theory. Put up or STFU.

SK: The problem is that adding improvements, new information to a genome has not been directly observed. Yes, we observe population dynamics, and we observe point mutations that remove a capability resulting in increased survival under certain hostile conditions. But this has been wrongly extrapolated to include new complexities and the evolution of life from planaria to pussycats. I truly believe there is another mechanism far more effective than point mutations involved, and I think there are tantalizing hints of it in the genome of the platypus.

Sal: one of those means of adding information and complexity to existent genomes that has left massive traces on them (perhaps 10% of the total human genome, for example) is the splicing in of artifactual retroviral DNA sequences by retroviral infections.

SK: Every scientific theory is a house of cards in the sense that new information or a better theory will indeed collapse the old one. This is a good thing and does not detract from Science.

Sal: Although some theories, such as geocentrism, collapse, others, such as evolutionary theory, are augmented, elaborated and refined, and still others are subsumed as special cases within more general theories, as Newton's celestial mechanics and laws of motion were subsumed as a special case of Einstein's relativity theory.

SK: Yes, I agree completely. I would add that in teaching the sciences, we should make sure to point out the weaknesses and mysteries in every theory that we teach. The result will be more kids pursuing a scientific career, also a good thing. And no, I do not want religious doctrine to enter into science classes.

Sal: Here we see support for the 'strengths and weaknesses' language that was properly excised from the law in Texas, since it was a loophole through which all kinds of creationist crapola could be driven, combined with an appeal to the second of Dostoyevsky's three pillars of clerical control (magic, mystery and authority). There are plenty of gaps in scientific knowledge, and there always will be, because answers lead to further questions. Remember that incomplete is not incorrect. But mysteries tend to be viewed as insoluble, and there have yet to be empirical questions asked for which empirical answers are to any degree in principle unobtainable. To invoke mysteries is to claim that God did it, and that since the workings of God are beyond human comprehension, we shouldn't even try to understand. It's a real science-killer.

731 OregonMuse  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 9:32:26pm

Yes, the quote Charles used for this post was taken egregiously out of context. However, I checked out some of the others, and they looked OK to me, i.e. they did not appear to contradict the larger context.

For what it's worth.

732 Mr Secul  Thu, Feb 5, 2009 11:09:35pm

re: #726 Charles

No, there is not, and you can't produce it. Just another lie.

He is being very coy.

Why doesn't he just produce his evidence?

/


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