Death Sentence for Translating the Koran

Religion • Views: 5,083

Is there a difference between the current government of Afghanistan and the Taliban? 2 face death over Quran translation.

The book appeared among gifts left for the cleric at a major Kabul mosque after Friday prayers in September 2007. It was a translation of the Quran into one of Afghanistan’s languages, with a note giving permission to reprint the text as long as it was distributed for free.

Some of the men of the mosque said the book would be useful to Afghans who didn’t know Arabic, so they took up a collection for printing. The mosque’s cleric asked Ahmad Ghaws Zalmai, a longtime friend, to get the books printed.

But as some of the 1,000 copies made their way to conservative Muslim clerics in Kabul, whispers began, then an outcry. The clerics said Zalmai, a stocky 54-year-old spokesman for the attorney general, was trying to anoint himself as a prophet. They said his book was trying to replace the Quran, not offer a simple translation. Translated editions of the Quran abound in Kabul markets, but they include Arabic verses.

The country’s powerful Islamic council issued an edict condemning the book. “In all the mosques in Afghanistan, all the mullahs said, ‘Zalmai is an infidel. He should be killed,’” Zalmai recounted as he sat outside the chief judge’s chambers waiting for a recent hearing.

Zalmai lost friends quickly. He was condemned by colleagues and even by others involved in the book’s printing. A mob stoned his house one night, said his brother, Mahmood Ghaws.

Police arrested Zalmai as he was fleeing to Pakistan, along with three other men the government says were trying to help him escape. The publisher and the mosque’s cleric, who signed a letter endorsing the book, were also jailed.

(Hat tip: Lawhawk.)

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255 comments
1 tupac23x  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:02:26am

It’s not like they called it “The Book of Death” or anything.

Sheesh.

2 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:02:45am
3 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:03:31am

Emboldened by the new POTUS who will never do anything to offend their culture.

4 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:03:31am

This one’s puzzling to me. Does this mean that dawah requires they teach everybody Arabic first?

5 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:03:41am

Religion of Peace.

6 Shug  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:03:46am

You cannot profit from the prophet

7 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:04:11am

What the hell!

8 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:04:15am

re: #6 Shug

You cannot profit from the prophet

Unless he is Obama

9 thefallingman  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:05:10am

Holy shit! My chaplain has English versions of the koran in his office. Hope he doesn’t get a fatwa when we deploy over there.

10 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:05:11am

Well. It just so happens I have a translated Koran from Dad’s library. (Never read it.)

I wonder what happened to the poor schmuck who translated it?

11 LGoPs  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:05:15am

These guys really don’t seem to have a sense of hunor…….
/

12 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:05:22am

I don’t know but I used to see many translated versions of Koran back in Iran. The Afghans might have gone crazy….

13 LGoPs  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:05:32am

re: #11 LGoPs

These guys really don’t seem to have a sense of hunor…….
/

Humor PIMF

14 tackle  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:05:43am

The fact that this is a Religion of Peace is somehow lost in translation.

15 Perplexed  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:06:12am

Nethack, the game has a book of death and a spell book of the finger of death. Thought those were fictional until reading this story.

16 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:06:15am
17 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:06:26am

re: #14 tackle

it’s jibberish

18 quickjustice  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:06:47am

That’ll teach him to mess with G-d! ;-)

19 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:06:57am

Here is an opportunity to compare cultures -

A guy name Gutenberg figures out a way to print Bibles in German and sets off a process that leads to the reformation and enlightenment.

A guy named Zalmai translates the Koran and gets a death sentence.

20 LGoPs  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:07:18am

Ya just gotta love these guys to death………

21 DaddyG  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:07:22am

Looks like they are catching up to where the west was about religious authority and access to scripture in one’s native language in the 1300s. From the standpoint of where they have been that’s progress.

22 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:07:37am

Gad it sounds like the middle ages with William Tynsdale translating the Bible into English.

23 quickjustice  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:07:45am

Translated, “Koran” means “Recital”. Does that earn me a death sentence? ;-)

24 steve  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:07:53am

When will somebody come out with a video game for the X-Box, PS3 etc.

find and kill the infidels who translate the Koran.

25 realwest  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:07:53am

re: #12 winston06
Agreed. I’ve read two different English language translations of the Koran on the internet! (two cause I wanted to make sure there wasn’t any “mistranslating”.
It’s not very long at all.
Gosh, I hope they don’t issue a Fatwa on the Internet!

26 rexatosis  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:09am

If the Afghans can’t read the Koran then they can’t judge its merits for themselves. “Illiteracy: Keeping the Islamic masses in line for over fourteen centuries.”

27 Silhouette  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:16am
Is there a difference between the current government of Afghanistan and the Taliban?

Yes. As bad as this one may be, yes. Women vote, girls and going to school, the soccer field is used for soccer instead of executions.

28 LGoPs  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:16am

re: #19 karmic_inquisitor

Here is an opportunity to compare cultures -

A guy name Gutenberg figures out a way to print Bibles in German and sets off a process that leads to the reformation and enlightenment.

A guy named Zalmai translates the Koran and gets a death sentence.

Yeah, so what’s your point? All cultures are equal…dammit.
/

29 Shug  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:20am

I read it, apparently he changed the names muhammad and aisha to jughead and veronica

30 tackle  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:20am

re: #21 DaddyG

Looks like they are catching up to where the west was about religious authority and access to scripture in one’s native language in the 1300s. From the standpoint of where they have been that’s progress.

I was thinking of that parallel, too.

31 jaunte  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:24am

“The country’s powerful Islamic council issued an edict condemning the book. “In all the mosques in Afghanistan, all the mullahs said, ‘Zalmai is an infidel. He should be killed…”

Because these things go together.

32 J.D.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:08:26am

Who are we to judge?™

33 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:09:09am

re: #25 realwest

They already did in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and UAE. That’s why they have internet filtering programs. ;-)

34 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:09:14am

Sometimes, primitive barbaric throwbacks need to be dealt with as primitive barbaric throwbacks.

35 MJ  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:09:23am

It’s a Zionist plot.

36 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:09:32am

re: #4 Guanxi88

Hardly. Most of them are taught to chant the Koran in a language that they do not understand.

37 DaddyG  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:09:56am

re: #22 Shr_Nfr GMTA

38 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:10:12am

OT, but not really when you think about censorship:

Another senator lines up behind ‘Fairness Doctrine’

Yep, our old friend Debbie Stabenow of Michigan. And the scary quote:

“I think it’s absolutely time to pass a standard. Now, whether it’s called the Fairness Standard, whether it’s called something else – I absolutely think it’s time to be bringing accountability to the airwaves. I mean, our new president has talked rightly about accountability and transparency. You know, that we all have to step up and be responsible. And, I think in this case, there needs to be some accountability and standards put in place.”

Something else? How does that jibe with with transparency lady?

39 gop_patriot  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:10:41am
The clerics said Zalmai, a stocky 54-year-old spokesman for the attorney general, was trying to anoint himself as a prophet. They said his book was trying to replace the Quran, not offer a simple translation.

The clerics are afraid that the men they’re preaching to will actually be able to read the words, and see what the koran actually says for themselves; and then won’t just sit there like tiny children and have it “interpreted” for them. They are afraid of losing their power- who is trying to annoint themselves a prophet?

40 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:10:43am

re: #12 winston06

This version didn’t have the original Arabic along with the translation.

41 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:11:04am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

That’s a punishable crime!

42 steve  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:11:11am

re: #19 karmic_inquisitor

Here is an opportunity to compare cultures -

A guy name Gutenberg figures out a way to print Bibles in German and sets off a process that leads to the reformation and enlightenment.

A guy named Zalmai translates the Koran and gets a death sentence.

Tyndall was arrested and killed for translating the Bible from Latin to English
Your text to link…

43 Tricky Dick  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:11:18am

But B. Hussien Obama just told me that

“There is no religion whose central tenet is hate. There is no God who condones taking the life of an innocent human being.”

So you must be mistaken. LOLOLOL!

44 bulwrk  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:11:26am

When Rome tried banning translation of The Bible it didn’t work out so well for them,but I hold no such illusions about islam.

45 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:11:44am

re: #43 Tricky Dick

he’s always mistaken

46 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:11:47am
47 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:12:12am

re: #46 buzzsawmonkey

LMAO!

48 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:12:35am

OT: I am using my work place “Report on Diversity” as my placemat.

49 realwest  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:12:40am

Huh, the Koran has been translated into english as early as 1734 and others have followed that:
“In 1734, George Sale produced the first scholarly translation of the Qur’ān direct from Arabic into English. Since then, there have been important English translations by John Rodwell in 1861, E.H. Palmer in 1880, Richard Bell in 1937, and Arthur John Arberry in 1955. All these translators were non-Muslims. There have been numerous translations by Muslims; the most popular of these are the translations by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al Hilali, Maulana Muhammad Ali, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Mohammed Habib Shakir, Muhammad Asad, and Marmaduke Pickthall.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

51 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:13:22am

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Racist TYP.

52 gop_patriot  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:13:25am

re: #48 WriterMom

OT: I am using my work place “Report on Diversity” as my placemat.

LOL! Good show.

53 abaleh  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:13:33am

re: #21 DaddyG

Looks like they are catching up to where the west was about religious authority and access to scripture in one’s native language in the 1300s. From the standpoint of where they have been that’s progress.

Islam began 600 years after Christianity, and I guess it makes sense that it is in the same growing phase as christianity was 600 years ago.
Only problem is we have at least 200 more years of killing in the name of religion.

54 steve  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:13:46am

re: #48 WriterMom

OT: I am using my work place “Report on Diversity” as my placemat.

Just make sure that you spill a lot of different foods on it and you will be okay;-)

55 nyc redneck  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:13:56am

such madness is incomprehensible to most people not afflicted w/ the rop.
this is what michael yon was talking abt.
it could take centuries to erase the barbarism from places like afghanistan.

56 MJ  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:14:11am

Wafa Sultan:

“I Firmly Believe That the Islamic Faith Was Created to Serve Muhammad, and to Legitimize His Desires and Urges”

“I firmly believe that the Islamic faith was created to serve Muhammad, and to legitimize his desires and urges. As evidence, we have ‘Aisha’s words: ‘I see that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desires.’ These words, which she said with innocence and spontaneity, embody the goal for which the Islamic faith was formed.

“Islam allowed men to marry infants in order to justify Muhammad’s marriage to ‘Aisha. Islam forbade adoption in order to justify Muhammad’s marriage to the wife of his adopted son - a thing forbidden by the pre-Islamic moral values of the Arabs. Islam permitted taking women captive and violating their honor in order to justify Muhammad’s marriage to Safiya, after killing her husband, her father, and her brother that same night. Can you imagine any woman on the face of this earth witnessing with her own eyes the killing of her husband, her father, and her brother, and accepting the religion of their killer on the spot, and sleeping with him?! Can the human mind possibly accept such a story?” […]

[Link: www.memritv.org…]

57 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:14:30am

re: #36 Shr_Nfr

Hardly. Most of them are taught to chant the Koran in a language that they do not understand.

True, and, following up on Winston’s comment, the problem seems to be they didn’t include the Arabic with it. Still, can’t help thinking the religion does you very little good if you’re constantly reciting the words youd don’t understand.

Many of us who went through the bar Mitzvah got a taste of what it must be like. “Just keep repeating your portion, you’ll get it right.” End result? I had total recall for that day and about a week later of my portion, but couldn’t really tell you what I said, what it meant, or where in Torah it was.

58 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:14:36am

re: #54 steve

I believe that the olive oil salad dressing and whole grain smears make it a much more intelligible, attractive document.

59 mikalm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:14:52am

re: #44 bulwrk

When Rome tried banning translation of The Bible it didn’t work out so well for them,but I hold no such illusions about islam.

And even Rome had to get in on the act once the demand was there. The English Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible actually published before the King James version appeared.

60 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:17am

re: #44 bulwrk

I am to believe that Islam can not be reformed because it deems reformers as infidels and therefore their blood should be shed. However, I think it is important that a Protestant like sect within Islam should take place and be supported. It’s the only way (and the last way IMO) to prevent the total destruction of this violent idealogy as it is clashing with the western world.

61 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:18am

re: #51 WriterMom

Racist TYP.

Whats TYP?

62 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:22am
63 ThinkRight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:23am

re: #46 buzzsawmonkey

I’m waiting for the graphic novel.


Child Pron is illegal

64 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:37am

These people truly are insane and in the dark ages.

They should be asking themselves why, if their book is so magical, do they all live in the most war-torn and depressingly ignorant countries in the world?

And if we have to wait another five hundred years for them to come out of their own dark ages, we’ll never make it. At the rate that weapons kill these days, they’ll kill us all before they reach true enlightened liberation for their senses.

It’s so fucking depressing.

65 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:38am

re: #25 realwest

Agreed. I’ve read two different English language translations of the Koran on the internet! (two cause I wanted to make sure there wasn’t any “mistranslating”.
It’s not very long at all.
Gosh, I hope they don’t issue a Fatwa on the Internet!

That’s coming soon to a computer near you…:(


/s

66 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:41am

re: #55 nyc redneck

Yes-it’s possible. But, look at the bright side. When the Americans/Allies decided to end the barbarity of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, it didn’t take very long for them to become functioning democracies.

67 DaddyG  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:51am

re: #53 abaleh

Islam began 600 years after Christianity, and I guess it makes sense that it is in the same growing phase as christianity was 600 years ago.
Only problem is we have at least 200 more years of killing in the name of religion.

Only this time the fanatics have access to anthrax, C5 and radioactive waste.

68 steve  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:15:58am

re: #58 WriterMom

I believe that the olive oil salad dressing and whole grain smears make it a much more intelligible, attractive document.

suitable for framing?

69 mikalm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:00am

re: #59 mikalm

actually = was actually. PIMF!

70 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:10am

re: #63 ThinkRight

Wife beating scenes illegal too?

71 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:14am

Naturally they must be killed. If Pashtuns who can’t read Arabic found out what is really in the book, some of them might be disgusted enough to leave the mosque.

72 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:14am

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh fart.

TWP.

Typical White Person.

/head pounds desk, raps fingers with ruler

73 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:24am

re: #56 MJ

From your post;

As evidence, we have ‘Aisha’s words: ‘I see that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desires.’

This is what is known as irony, as the actual translation of Aisha’s words is:

“Jeez, Mo, I’m only nine.”

74 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:25am

re: #62 ploome hineni

someone call Space Achmed

Candygram for SpaceJeebus!
Candygram for SpaceJeebus!
Candygram for SpaceJeebus!

75 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:26am

re: #58 WriterMom

I believe that the olive oil salad dressing and whole grain smears make it a much more intelligible, attractive document.

You go girl. Damn I wish I could speak to your bosses.

76 abaleh  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:40am

re: #53 abaleh

And Judaism was there 3000 years ago when the Israelites went medieval on the Canaanites’ ass.

77 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:41am

re: #68 steve

Suitable for mocking, or an awesome cure for insomnia.

78 Silhouette  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:16:42am

re: #53 abaleh

Islam began 600 years after Christianity, and I guess it makes sense that it is in the same growing phase as christianity was 600 years ago.

The differences in Christianity and Islam cannot be attributed solely to age. Christianity is not based on a man who beheaded 600 people one day and had sex with a 9-yr-old.

79 debutaunt  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:17:05am

re: #62 ploome hineni

someone call Space Achmed

He’s doing his homework and then cleaning up his room.

80 bulwrk  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:17:20am

re: #48 WriterMom

OT: I am using my work place “Report on Diversity” as my placemat.

As long as you have a box of assorted donuts you’ll be fine,get caught with just powdered and you’re screwed.

81 ThinkRight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:17:25am

re: #70 winston06

Wife beating scenes illegal too?


Only in Red States

82 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:17:34am

re: #72 WriterMom

Oh fart.

TWP.

Typical White Person.

/head pounds desk, raps fingers with ruler

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

and thank you.

83 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #78 Silhouette

The differences in Christianity and Islam cannot be attributed solely to age. Christianity is not based on a man who beheaded 600 people one day and had sex with a 9-yr-old.

All on the same day?…:)

84 gmsc  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:05am

re: #67 DaddyG

Only this time the fanatics have access to anthrax, C5 and radioactive waste.

Actually, access to anthrax wouldn’t be new, but I know what you mean.

85 SummerSong  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:10am

Satanic versions?

86 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:24am

Of course the real yuck is that the Arabic in today’s Koran uses pointing that did not exist in the canonic version adopted by Umar. Arabic is one of those lovely Semitic languages that drops all the vowels. The pointing attempts to restore them in both Hebrew and Arabic. By inserting vowels, you can change the nature of the word. For instance, in Middle Egyptian, the word for taste and the word for boat are both dpt. One presumes the vowels made them different words, but that is the letters that are written. At least in Middle Egyptian, they used what are called “determinants” after the word. To distinguish between boat and taste they would put a boat sign or a tongue after the consonants. Arabic does not do that. The insertion of pointing on to the original text is a modification of that text several hundred years after it was written. The “virgins” vs. “raisins” is an example of the problem you run into. Wainsborough is a tough read for anyone, but he goes into some of this stuff. The “original” Arabic is anything but. Its like the Vulgate translation of the Greek. It is at least one step removed.

87 Amer-I-Can  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:26am

This is the religion of peace, right? A kinder, gentler Islam, obviously.

88 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:26am

re: #53 abaleh

Christianity could stand Enlightenment and Reformation wars but Islamic world has no equivalent of Enlightenment era thinkers and writers. Any attempt to reform Islam is crushed. The western civilization (i.e USA) should fight Islam the way it fought Communism.

89 jcm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:29am

re: #4 Guanxi88

This one’s puzzling to me. Does this mean that dawah requires they teach everybody Arabic first?

Essentially yes. It’s not the Quran unless it’s in Arabic. Any translation is not the Quran.

90 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:32am

re: #83 Dustyvet

All on the same day?…:)

LOL, reminds me of that scene in Clerks.

91 mikalm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:41am

re: #48 WriterMom

OT: I am using my work place “Report on Diversity” as my placemat.

Too bad they didn’t print it on ultra-soft paper, otherwise I can think of another use for it.

92 nyc redneck  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:42am

re: #66 WriterMom

Yes-it’s possible. But, look at the bright side. When the Americans/Allies decided to end the barbarity of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, it didn’t take very long for them to become functioning democracies.

our p.c. tactics make it impossible. imagine if we had done that in ww2.
we would all be speaking german.

93 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:18:59am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

No, I don’t think you do. Like BVDM pointed out, she bears a fantastic resemblance to Dag the Bounty Hunter’s wife…just picture that in a slightly more business-like attire. LOL. Hard to take it seriously.

94 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:19:16am

re: #81 ThinkRight

lol

95 VioletTiger  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:19:30am

What is in that book that makes these people act so flipping nuts?

96 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:19:50am

re: #76 abaleh

And Judaism was there 3000 years ago when the Israelites went medieval on the Canaanites’ ass.

Book of Joshua, Book of Judges; nasty stuff, some of the best stuff to read for a picture of what the Bronze Age was like in the Levant.

Spoiler alert: a lot of people get really unpleasant things done to them.

97 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:19:52am

re: #95 VioletTiger

What is in that book that makes these people act so flipping nuts?

evil

98 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:20:05am

Well, things didn’t work out so well for William Tyndale, but his work helped the rest of us. May God help poor Mr. Zalmai.

Maybe this could be a good thing. Maybe they are reaching a reformation.

I’m not betting my lunch money, but I can hope.

99 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:20:06am

re: #95 VioletTiger

It contains nuts. Allergies and all that, you kno

100 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:20:19am
101 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:20:44am

re: #88 winston06

Islam will not voluntarily reform. It has to be pushed into it. In my view, the people who are the ‘reformers’ are actually more like apostates.

102 gmsc  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:20:48am

re: #95 VioletTiger

What is in that book that makes these people act so flipping nuts?

Here you go . . courtesy of the Skeptic’s Annotated Koran.

103 DaddyG  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:21:25am

re: #66 WriterMom

Yes-it’s possible. But, look at the bright side. When the Americans/Allies decided to end the barbarity of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, it didn’t take very long for them to become functioning democracies.

Both of those transformations followed an international unoquivecally supported thorough butt kicking of the dictators in charge, unconditional surrender and a strong millitary and administrative presence for 50+ years.

104 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:21:44am

re: #101 WriterMom

That’s what I said. Waste as many Jihadists as possible and support the reformists

105 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:21:54am

re: #95 VioletTiger

What is in that book that makes these people act so flipping nuts?

It’s a magical book, full of power and energy and stuff.

Doncha know?

And if you tamper with the magical incantations, you just might get into trouble.

106 bulwrk  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:22:24am

re: #60 winston06

I am to believe that Islam can not be reformed because it deems reformers as infidels and therefore their blood should be shed. However, I think it is important that a Protestant like sect within Islam should take place and be supported. It’s the only way (and the last way IMO) to prevent the total destruction of this violent idealogy as it is clashing with the western world.

I agree but I do not believe for one moment that modern muslims have the same thirst for truth and knowledge that most Europeans had 500 years ago.

107 LilyGecko  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:22:47am

re: #105 Summer

It’s a magical book, full of power and energy and stuff.

Doncha know?

And if you tamper with the magical incantations, you just might get into trouble.

The wrath of Allah shall fall on those who go astray.

108 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:22:50am

re: #93 WriterMom

No, I don’t think you do. Like BVDM pointed out, she bears a fantastic resemblance to Dag the Bounty Hunter’s wife…just picture that in a slightly more business-like attire. LOL. Hard to take it seriously.

Er, ok, that scared me. I have a friend who loves all kinds of TV show, and he flipped that on the other day while he was surfing for something to watch.

Holy shit. That is one fucked up family. I didn’t even know where to start. They are the ultimate combination of what makes both liberals and conservatives look like bait for the nut house.

109 ThinkRight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:08am

re: #95 VioletTiger

What is in that book that makes these people act so flipping nuts?


It’s not whats in the book
It is thousands of years of inbreeding that makes them act that way

110 DaddyG  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #84 gmsc

Actually, access to anthrax wouldn’t be new, but I know what you mean.

Weapons grade I mean… not still in the sheep. ;-)

111 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:12am

re: #66 WriterMom

Germans and Japanese both were disciplined, hard working and bright people (even though on the side of evil) and they wanted to get past their past evil behavior and join the civilized world again. The Arab world on the other hand wants to go back to 6th century AD.

112 Silhouette  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:18am

re: #98 EmmmieG

Well, things didn’t work out so well for William Tyndale.

We owe him not just for spiritual assistance, but I read a book recently that pointed out that King James’ people kept much of Tyndale’s wording, and since that text has so greatly influenced standard spoken English through the years, Tyndale continues today to affect how most English speakers speak.

Except for Obama. The ‘uhs’ are all his. ;-)

113 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:31am

re: #95 VioletTiger

What is in that book that makes these people act so flipping nuts?

Nothing that a good exorcism might help.

114 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:37am

It’s a good thing my copy of the Torah has the Hebrew on each right hand page. I’d hate for a bunch of chasidim to stone my house; I just had my roof redone.

/

115 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:23:39am

re: #103 DaddyG

Yep.

116 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:24:06am

re: #107 LilyGecko

The wrath of Allah shall fall on those who go astray.

Woogaboogah.

117 jcm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:24:13am

re: #64 Summer

These people truly are insane and in the dark ages.

They should be asking themselves why, if their book is so magical, do they all live in the most war-torn and depressingly ignorant countries in the world?

And if we have to wait another five hundred years for them to come out of their own dark ages, we’ll never make it. At the rate that weapons kill these days, they’ll kill us all before they reach true enlightened liberation for their senses.

It’s so fucking depressing.

Churchill called it “fearful, fatal, apathy” it’s embodied in the word “Inshallah” or Allah wills it. We cultural fail to wrap our minds around the power of “Inshallah.”

Allah wills that they live in the state they live in. To try and change it is to go against the will of Allah. It also gives the relevance to he homicide bombers, it’s Allah’s will they blow them selves up, and Allah’s will that the victims get blown up. Who are we to complain and challenge the will of Allah.

“Inshallah” is use by the Theocracy to maintain their hold on power, they are the sole arbiters of the will of Allah, and cannot, must not be challenged.

It’s deeply engrained in Islamic / Arab culture this concept of “Inshallah” we in the west have a lot of trouble coming to terms with it.

118 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:24:25am

re: #106 bulwrk

I don’t know about that. Majority of them live in closed societies, true. but the ones I knew back in Iran for example were freaking thirsty for civility, fair news coverage and modernity.

119 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:24:48am

re: #4 Guanxi88

This one’s puzzling to me. Does this mean that dawah requires they teach everybody Arabic first?

Good question. Short answer, no.

Islam is just fine with having a huge percentage of non-Arab believers who can’t understand more than a few phrases of their sacred text.

It’s a mechanical religion. Say the shahada, pray five times a day, give alms, go to Mecca if you can, and fast during Ramadan. That’s pretty much it.

Oh, and make sure you know the basic rules of sharia, so you don’t get bits chopped off.

120 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:24:48am
121 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:25:31am

re: #111 winston06

Well, they want the behaviour of the 6th century but 20th century technology and comforts of course.

122 LilyGecko  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:25:39am

2:282 (Koran.)
“A woman is worth one-half a man.”

Which half?

123 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:25:39am

re: #119 Cato the Elder

you forgot JIHAD. It’s one of the main pillars of Islam.

124 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:25:42am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

And in other news: Pakistani nuclear proliferator freed from onerous punishment (house arrest): Islamo-bombs for all!

The Terrorism Stimulus Plan keeps paying dividends.

Pakistan would not have dared to let the guy go out under Bush. It was hard enough for Washington to simply accept house arrest.

125 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:25:57am
126 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:26:51am

re: #117 jcm

Churchill called it “fearful, fatal, apathy” it’s embodied in the word “Inshallah” or Allah wills it. We cultural fail to wrap our minds around the power of “Inshallah.”

Allah wills that they live in the state they live in. To try and change it is to go against the will of Allah. It also gives the relevance to he homicide bombers, it’s Allah’s will they blow them selves up, and Allah’s will that the victims get blown up. Who are we to complain and challenge the will of Allah.

“Inshallah” is use by the Theocracy to maintain their hold on power, they are the sole arbiters of the will of Allah, and cannot, must not be challenged.

It’s deeply engrained in Islamic / Arab culture this concept of “Inshallah” we in the west have a lot of trouble coming to terms with it.

Did you see the Hamas video from a few weeks ago, when in ever scene with anywhere from one or more people, they were constantly shouting “Allahu Akbar”? I compared it to some of the scenes in Mel Brooks’ “To Be or Not To Be” when Christopher Lloyd shouts out “Heil Hitler!” anytime he gets flustered so that Charles Durning responds in the same and quickly forgets what they were talking about.

127 mikalm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:27:15am

re: #112 Silhouette

Yes, the KJV is one of the great influences on the English language. The Douay cribs from Tyndale as well, although the Elizabethan Catholics who translated it would never have admitted that.

128 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:28:08am

re: #121 WriterMom

Oil has bought it for them in Arabian peninsula. Plus I would not mix Iraqis, Lebanese or even Egyptian arabs with those of Arabian peninsula. The Arabs of Arabian peninsula (Kuwaitis, Omanis, Saudis…) are bedouines with no special heritage or history. While the Lebanese, Egyptians and …. are ancient nations that can be brought into 21st century style of thinking. The people of Saudi Arabia for example are bunch of dead brains walking in the desert.

129 gop_patriot  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:28:28am

re: #118 winston06

I don’t know about that. Majority of them live in closed societies, true. but the ones I knew back in Iran for example were freaking thirsty for civility, fair news coverage and modernity.

Maybe because of the differences between Arabs and Persians?

130 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:29:48am

re: #129 gop_patriot

Arabs, Persians, Turks, Uzbeks, Tajikis, Turkemens…. It is a really wide ranging universe. Many share the same religion but have different backgrounds and ethnicities.

131 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:29:57am
132 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:30:38am

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Good question. Short answer, no.

Islam is just fine with having a huge percentage of non-Arab believers who can’t understand more than a few phrases of their sacred text.

It’s a mechanical religion. Say the shahada, pray five times a day, give alms, go to Mecca if you can, and fast during Ramadan. That’s pretty much it.

Oh, and make sure you know the basic rules of sharia, so you don’t get bits chopped off.

Well, that’s pretty freakin’ crappy. Gives some weight to a theory a persian buddy of mine once aired:

He said, and I’m paraphrasing:

“Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism; they come in, change everybody’s names, make the folks pray in Arabic, and, in general, submit to an Arab culture, an Arab divinity, and compel Arab methods of worship. The whole thing’s a giant scam, set up by the Mecca Chamber of Commerce to encourage tourism, and the Guild of Rug Weavers to keep sales steady.”

133 Silhouette  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:02am

re: #117 jcm

And heaven knows I say “Lord willing” a whole bunch, but it is not the same thing. Ours is a culture of “God helps those that help themselves.”
As PJ O’Roarke puts it

Then there’s the Tenth Commandment: “Thou shall not covet they neighbor’s wife. Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s house, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.”

I mean, here are God’s basic rules for how we should live, a very brief list of sacred obligations and solemn moral precepts, and right at the end of it is: “Don’t envy your buddy his cow.”

What is that doing there? Why would God, with just 10 things to tell Moses, choose jealousy about the stuff the guy next door has?

Well, think about how important to the well-being of a community that commandment actually is. What that commandment says is that if you want a donkey, if you want a pot roast, if you want a cleaning lady, don’t bitch about it, go get your own!

134 AuntAcid  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:10am

“He should be killed”
“There are no religions that blah…blah…blah…”

“Yes Virginia, the human race is devolving, our president is a clueless tool and we are in deep shit.”

135 jwb7605  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:10am

re: #101 WriterMom

Islam will not voluntarily reform. It has to be pushed into it. In my view, the people who are the ‘reformers’ are actually more like apostates.

Upding. That was a nice observation.

136 nikis-knight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:21am

re: #101 WriterMom

Islam will not voluntarily reform. It has to be pushed into it. In my view, the people who are the ‘reformers’ are actually more like apostates.

A view you share with every influential muslim, unfortunately.

137 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:27am

re: #122 LilyGecko

2:282 (Koran.)
“A woman is worth one-half a man.”

Which half?

They doing a remake of the Wizard of OZ, Over The Rainbow is now “Somewhere Under The Burqa…”

138 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:32am

re: #132 Guanxi88

well-said

139 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:37am

Science Gets the Shaft

US Senators Ben Nelson (D-NE) and Susan Collins (R-ME) are proposing to cut the stimulus/spending package by roughly 10%. Their staff have identified several “useless” programs included in the bill, and it appears that they consider science funding to be one of those useless pursuits.

Over the last 50 years, much of our economic development has been driven by science, and at a time when the US is faced with losing its scientific dominance to China and the EU, the US needs increased science funding. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime. Fund fishing research, and your children all eat for a lifetime.

From the list of stimulus projects that are on the cutting block:

* NSF 100% cut ($1,402,000,000)
* NASA exploration 50% cut ($750,000,000)
* NOAA 34.94% cut ($427,000,000)
* NIST 37.91% cut ($218,000,000)
* DOE energy efficiency & renewable energy 38% cut ($1,000,000,000)
* DOE office of science 100% cut ($100,000,000)

140 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:31:44am

re: #98 EmmmieG

Well, things didn’t work out so well for William Tyndale, but his work helped the rest of us. May God help poor Mr. Zalmai.

Maybe this could be a good thing. Maybe they are reaching a reformation.

I’m not betting my lunch money, but I can hope.

Not gonna happen. The reason the Reformation worked in German Christianity is that the populists associated Latin (and Italian) with the foreigner, and supported the reform clerics. In the Near East, the populists associate the vernacular language with the foreigner (“Jahiliyya”) and Arabic with themselves, and support anti-reform clerics.

These mullahs, these mobs, these militants - they are the Muslim Reformation.

141 jwb7605  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:32:35am

re: #133 Silhouette

And heaven knows I say “Lord willing” a whole bunch, but it is not the same thing. Ours is a culture of “God helps those that help themselves.”
As PJ O’Roarke puts it

“If the Good Lord’s willing and the creek don’t rise”
— “Tennessee” Ernie Ford

142 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:33:07am

re: #138 winston06

well-said

Hat tip to my old pal Davoud, wherever he may be.

143 realwest  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:33:11am

re: #65 Dustyvet
Hey Dusty - didja get that e-mail I sent to you?

144 quickjustice  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:33:16am

re: #60 winston06

I understand your point, but you don’t understand Islam. The fundamentalist Muslims (extremists murderers) ARE the “reform” group within Islam. They’re the ones who want “back to basics” the way early Protestants wanted “back to the Bible”. I’m not saying extremist Muslims are the same as Protestant Christians (because the Biblical New Testament extols peace and love, not warfare and murder), but there is no “Catholic Church” within Islam to impose its hierarchical moral authority upon all Muslims.

So we shouldn’t want “reform” of Islam as much as moderation that dilutes the early barbarity of Islam (rather like later Judaism softened the early and harsh Biblical rules about slaughtering everyone in pagan tribes after the Hebrews scored military victories over their enemies) as much as possible.

145 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:33:31am

re: #122 LilyGecko

That’s in court of law (Sharia). When it comes to sharing inheritance and wealth, a woman is worth 1/8th of his male siblings. :-)

146 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:33:55am

re: #143 realwest

Hey Dusty - didja get that e-mail I sent to you?

Yes sir, working on an answer for you.

147 gop_patriot  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:34:03am

re: #133 Silhouette


Well said, by PJ and you!

148 jcm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:34:19am

re: #118 winston06

I don’t know about that. Majority of them live in closed societies, true. but the ones I knew back in Iran for example were freaking thirsty for civility, fair news coverage and modernity.

Iran has the advantage of the Persian culture which is older than the Islamic culture. There is a culture war ongoing in Iran over that. Iran celebrates No Rooz, a 2 week long spring New Year celebration. It goes back to Zoroastrianism, the Mad Mullahs have been trying to get rid of it with a lot of push back.

If we had the wit to support the Persian culture in this internal culture war, we’d have a chance in Iran to achieve regime change and a country that would again look to the west.

149 doppelganglander  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:34:24am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

Science is certainly important, and there might be a place for those items in another bill in the future, but they hardly count as stimulus.

150 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:34:33am
151 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:34:51am

re: #144 quickjustice

LoL… for one thing I am glad I don’t understand ISLAM even though I lived in an Islamic society for almost 25 yrs. Thank goodness for not getting Islam otherwise I would be a Muslim now… hahaha

152 Silhouette  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:34:56am

re: #141 jwb7605

“If the Good Lord’s willing and the creek don’t rise”
— “Tennessee” Ernie Ford

Who was born in Bristol, TN (the real home of country music) and has a birthday coming up next Friday.

153 nikis-knight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:35:03am

re: #128 winston06

Oil has bought it for them in Arabian peninsula. Plus I would not mix Iraqis, Lebanese or even Egyptian arabs with those of Arabian peninsula. The Arabs of Arabian peninsula (Kuwaitis, Omanis, Saudis…) are bedouines with no special heritage or history. While the Lebanese, Egyptians and …. are ancient nations that can be brought into 21st century style of thinking. The people of Saudi Arabia for example are bunch of dead brains walking in the desert.


Afghanis are as backwards as they come, from what I hear.

154 formercorpsman  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:35:17am

re: #118 winston06

Actually, from what little I know, it seems to me, the average Iranian pretty much seeks everything your typical American would want themselves.

I would not necessarily lump Iran, or Iraq for that matter, in with the likes of an Afghanistan.

155 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:35:26am

re: #118 winston06

One of the most popular radio shows on Israel Radio is their Farsi phone-in show, news and current events. They get bombarded with calls from Iran who want medical advice, questions about current and world affairs.

156 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:35:59am

re: #150 buzzsawmonkey

thats what I said

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

157 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #78 Silhouette

The differences in Christianity and Islam cannot be attributed solely to age. Christianity is not based on a man who beheaded 600 people one day and had sex with a 9-yr-old.

In all fairness, we don’t know what he got up to from infancy until adulthood, with the exception of that time when he was 12 and teaching the elders at that temple.

I wonder, what happened to teen Jesus?

///////

158 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:37:12am

re: #153 nikis-knight

One word for you: Pakistan.

159 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:37:17am

re: #155 WriterMom

It’s been in service since late 1950s. I used to listen to it (cause my dad did in 1980s) and I liked that nice Jewish guy’s voice Mr. Menashe Amir. Radio Israel is so popular in Iran

160 nikis-knight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:37:25am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

That’s still only cutting the increase that we can’t afford a bit of. Give the whole thing the shaft.

161 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:37:51am

re: #153 nikis-knight

Because they have never experienced any thing civilized.

162 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:38:21am

re: #159 winston06

Yes, Menashe Amir…that’s right. He often hooked up callers with medical experts in Israel. That’s so cool that you listened to it.

163 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:38:59am

re: #162 WriterMom

I still do. get their podcasts or in MP3 format

164 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:41:01am

re: #144 quickjustice

I understand your point, but you don’t understand Islam. The fundamentalist Muslims (extremists murderers) ARE the “reform” group within Islam. They’re the ones who want “back to basics” the way early Protestants wanted “back to the Bible”. I’m not saying extremist Muslims are the same as Protestant Christians (because the Biblical New Testament extols peace and love, not warfare and murder), but there is no “Catholic Church” within Islam to impose its hierarchical moral authority upon all Muslims.

So we shouldn’t want “reform” of Islam as much as moderation that dilutes the early barbarity of Islam (rather like later Judaism softened the early and harsh Biblical rules about slaughtering everyone in pagan tribes after the Hebrews scored military victories over their enemies) as much as possible.

Islam does have Orthodox Church analogues, in Shi’ism. But just as Orthodoxy is a marginal force west of Sarajevo, Shi’ism isn’t going to amount to much in populations which aren’t already Shi’ite.

165 nikis-knight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:41:19am

re: #161 winston06

Because they have never experienced any thing civilized.

I hoped that the American soldiers would influence the Iraqis and Afghanis. It seemed to be so in Iraq, verrrry slowly, from what Michael Yon & Totten reported. Hopefully there will be some influence in Afghanistan, but who knows, it really is a whole different situation.

166 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:42:38am

re: #132 Guanxi88

Well, that’s pretty freakin’ crappy. Gives some weight to a theory a persian buddy of mine once aired:

He said, and I’m paraphrasing:

“Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism; they come in, change everybody’s names, make the folks pray in Arabic, and, in general, submit to an Arab culture, an Arab divinity, and compel Arab methods of worship. The whole thing’s a giant scam, set up by the Mecca Chamber of Commerce to encourage tourism, and the Guild of Rug Weavers to keep sales steady.”

Heh. The mechanics of acceptable Islamo-prayer are actually pretty risible. Here’s a basic introduction.

It’s all about body posture, down to the way you cup your hands behind your ears. Don’t wiggle your fingers at Allah!

According to a Christian convert from Islam, “…[T]hey sit up and lean back on their heels, with their legs crossed at the ankle and the left foot turned in. Muhammad crossed his ankles this way and, therefore, so do Muslims.”

And all of that five times a day. Mind-numbing!

I’d rather sit still and practice zazen, even if the head monk comes around every so often and whacks me with a stick!

167 WriterMom  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:42:44am

re: #163 winston06

Kewl.

168 mikalm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:43:28am

re: #144 quickjustice

I wonder if the Sufis could play a role in this “softening”?

169 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:45:00am

re: #100 ploome hineni

While that is true, the Rheims New Testament contained only the New Testament and the Old Testament was not published in English until after the KJV. The KJV was an effort to unify the English versions of the Bible at the time. The official state version was the Bishop’s Bible done by Elizabeth around 1570. That translation in turn was done in reaction to the Geneva translation which was done in Geneva earlier. The Geneva was produced in reaction to the Greate Bible of Henry VIII that was produced from 1538-1543. The Geneva translation remained the Bible that was in competition with the official Bible of the Church of England until the attempt to unify it was done by James 1. James especially wished to wipe out all the side notes in the Geneva versions. After 1616, the Geneva version was no longer published (at least officially) in England and all new purchases had to be of the KJV. This led to a large number of Bibles being produced in the low countries that were knock-offs of the 1599 Barker version for the Puritan trade. They are usually dead giveaways because the Puritans did not want the Apocrypha in their Bibles. The real 1599 contained it. The Geneva Bible continued to be produced in the low countries until around 1650. The KJV with the Geneva side notes was produced as late as 1820.

There are other versions that kick around. Erasmus did an English Paraphrase on the New Testament and then there is the Mathew’s Bible. Both date from around 1540s. There were reprints of Tynsdale’s work and of course the Coverdale NT of 1536. The first translation into “English” actually dates from prior to the year 1000, although we would not recognize the language. The first recognizable effort is Wycliffe. There was also a redaction of the NT into the Germanic languages done by some monk or other around 800 AD. The shepherds and sheep become thanes and horses.

170 nikis-knight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:45:27am

re: #166 Cato the ElderIt’s like an eternal game of Simon Says. What a sad joke.

171 JHW  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:45:44am

re: #46 buzzsawmonkey

I’m waiting for the graphic novel.

Heh, got you covered,
Muhammed’s ‘Believe it or Else”

172 Mambo Bananapatch  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:46:03am

I can understand why they wouldn’t want people to know what’s in it.

173 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:46:16am

re: #168 mikalm

They have always been everyone’s favorite apostate. “Rage Boy” is actually a Sufi.

174 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:46:42am

re: #162 WriterMom

Talking about radio Israel, it reminded me of a conversation I had with a taxi driver in Tehran 5 yrs ago. True or not I have no idea but he said that his dying father whose artificial & battery operating heart repaired by Israeli doctors back in 1970s had to be re-adjusted was told that the only country that could treat /fix his dad might be Israel. And if he can’t get to Israel then the only thing he needs to do is to go to top of a mountain in the suburb of the city and they will do something to him through satellite or radio waves to re-adjust the device in his heart. Long story short, his dad’s heart was fixed after he did as he was told through Mr. Amir of Radio Israel. He was very grateful for that. ((True or not, again I dont know but urban myth is always there among uneducated people who want to show their love for another nation in weird ways))

175 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:48:03am

re: #164 Zimriel

You’ll be surprised to know that Shi’ism was a break from Sunni sect of religion and a minor reform of tight sunni rules.

176 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:48:27am

re: #168 mikalm

They’re crushed

177 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:48:29am

An eraser best translates the Koran.

178 mikalm  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:48:50am

re: #169 Shr_Nfr

Interesting stuff!

There’s a great book called The Book of a Thousand Tongues, which is a catalog of all the Bible translations into world languages. Each entry contains a passage from Scripture translated into different vernaculars, along with notes about the dates and circumstances of the translation, and the difficulties missionaries and others had in rendering words and concepts into the local lingo.

179 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:49:34am

re: #168 mikalm

Sufis are fine.

180 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:50:47am

re: #177 Ojoe

I have my own copy, it is called a “ream”, and it is 500 pages long, flawless.

181 aggieann  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:52:43am

re: #36 Shr_Nfr

Hardly. Most of them are taught to chant the Koran in a language that they do not understand.

A Muslim acquaintance told me this, as well. They don’t know what they’re saying.

182 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:53:46am

re: #181 aggieann

It’s true.

183 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:55:27am

According to the muslims I have spoken with, in order to be a ‘true’ muslim one must learn arabic. All ‘translations’ of the Qu’ran / Koran / Quran in any other language but arabic is not considered a ‘true’ Qu’ran / Koran / Quran. The first Sura of the Koran is only effectual if spoken in arabic. So their ‘God’ is a respecter of persons.

According to my belief system, the (whether you care or not is beside the point, I am just trying to illustrate the difference here in the article above) Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints / LDS / ‘Mormon’, our belief is that ‘God’ wants his members to understand the doctrinal points correctly. Then it is in the persons power to make an educated decision to accept or reject. This is best done in one’s own native language. So to be a ‘missionary’ and to ‘teach’ our doctrine, we are required to learn the native language of the people in the country we are serving. (I speak Bulgarian) That is also the reason we are doing all we can to translate our ‘extra’ Holy Book, the Book of Mormon into other languages. Tower of Babel: Confused languages. Gift of tongues (according to our doctrinal opinion): Gods mercy in allowing people to master languages quickly to overcome it’s effects. God loves everyone and isn’t a respecter of persons. IMHO.

184 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:57:59am
185 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:58:39am
186 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:58:44am

Student lost his unique collection of rare lizard dung

UK - A university has apologised to a graduate student who lost his unique collection of rare lizard excrement when it was thrown away by mistake.
Daniel Bennett had been studying the butaan lizard for more than five years in the Philippines and was working towards a doctorate.
He had built up a large collection of faeces samples which were stored at Leeds University and then disposed of.

I’m not saying a word!

187 Raven1  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:59:25am

Here’s an idea, Why don’t some clear headed, compassionate people from the western civilization translate their koran and make it into a book about love instead of hate? Besides the death sentence that would follow, what could go wrong?

188 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 10:59:52am
189 nikis-knight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:00:09am

re: #186 Dustyvet

Maybe it’ll show up on our “bottom comments” list?

190 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:00:19am
191 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:03:15am
192 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:03:56am

islam is as islam does.

193 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:04:56am

re: #184 ploome hineni

True. But Shiites have the role of jurists to interpret the Islamic laws for them and make it suitable to the needs of the moment while Sunnis stick with what the Koran & Hadith have to offer.

194 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:06:41am

re: #190 ploome hineni

we pray for you daily, and hope one day you will find the true path

:D


Regardless the motive…I’ll take the prayers.

Heh. Speaking of prayer, one day when I was in high school my dad pulls the ol’ one liner, “The Lord only answers my prayers yes.”

So I whisper to my mom in sarcasm as if praying like him, “Dear God, please bless that I will be broke. Poor. Living in a trailer. Bless that my car can remain broken down.”

/Was in the ‘trailer’, but I was never of the ‘trailer’…

195 VioletTiger  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:07:15am

re: #181 aggieann

A Muslim acquaintance told me this, as well. They don’t know what they’re saying.


That explains a lot.

196 astronmr20  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:08:09am

re: #33 winston06

They already did in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and UAE. That’s why they have internet filtering programs. ;-)

I have actually been on LGF while in UAE.

Felt damn good doing it too….

197 aggieann  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:08:38am

re: #168 mikalm

I wonder if the Sufis could play a role in this “softening”?

All we have to do is wake up little Sufi.

198 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:09:32am

re: #197 aggieann

All we have to do is wake up little Sufi.

Groan…:)

199 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:09:44am

re: #106 bulwrk

I agree but I do not believe for one moment that modern muslims have the same thirst for truth and knowledge that most Europeans had 500 years ago.


Yeah those were the good old days…

1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.
1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.
1431 +: The Council of Basel “forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons.” 5
1434: “Jewish men in Augsburg had to sew yellow buttons to their clothes. Across Europe, Jews were forced to wear a long undergarment, an overcoat with a yellow patch, bells and tall pointed yellow hats with a large button on them.” 1
1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.
1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.
1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.
1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20 thousand left the country rather than be baptized as Christians.
1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the “Ghetto Novo.” This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930’s.
1540: Jews were exiled from Naples.
1543: In his 20’s, Martin Luther, had expected Jews to convert to Christianity in large numbers. Distressed by their reluctance, he developed a hatred for Jews…In 1543, he wrote “On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras” :
“…eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God’s anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!…What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?
First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,…
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed… They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmudsin which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more…
Want more?
200 astronmr20  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:10:02am

re: #53 abaleh

Islam began 600 years after Christianity, and I guess it makes sense that it is in the same growing phase as christianity was 600 years ago.
Only problem is we have at least 200 more years of killing in the name of religion.

Wrong.

Christianity’s message was one of peace. People realized this when they learned to read the Bible for themselves.

Islam’s message, at it’s core, is one of hatred, intolerance, death, etc.

201 JustABill  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:10:08am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

And in other news: Pakistani nuclear proliferator freed from onerous punishment (house arrest): Islamo-bombs for all!

Yep we were all fooled by his house arrest, it was an AQ Con…

202 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #175 winston06

You’ll be surprised to know that Shi’ism was a break from Sunni sect of religion and a minor reform of tight sunni rules.

What’s your source, and what are your criteria?

Shi’ism started out as a partisan movement against what we might call “Umayyadism”. The Umayyads declared themselves “people of the house” as Muhammad’s relatives. Shi’ism declared themselves “people of the house” as Muhammad’s CLOSEST relatives. And there were other movements, like the Kaysanites and ‘Abbasids, who found other relatives of Muhammad to rally around. “Sunnism” is a total anachronism prior to the 700s CE.

As a legal movement, Shi’ law holds to the practice and rulings of the ‘Alid Imams. Again, this is pretty much like Umayyad legal theory (usul al-fiqh, as opposed to pure legal codes which is fiqh alone), which in non-Shi’ populations didn’t long survive the ‘Abbasid takeover (Awza’ism and Thawrism, for instance; which are not, or rather no longer, among the Four Sunni Schools).

The closest thing the Sunnis have to Shi’ usul al-fiqh is Malikism, which follows the rulings of ‘Umar; but even then the analogy isn’t all THAT close, because ‘Umar’s rulings were lost and/or filtered through his family (which is even worse than being lost, because so many of ‘Umar’s family isnads are forged). Of the other three, Shafi’ism and Hanbalism are hadith fundamentalist breakoffs from Malikism, and Hanafism is Shi’ite in law leavened with a hefty dose of Abu Hanifa’s personal opinion.

This much I’ve gathered from Crone’s “God’s Caliph” and Dutton’s “The Origins of Islamic Law”; also good, if a bit outdated, is Schacht’s “Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence”.

203 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:16:30am
204 theheat  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:19:52am
Is there a difference between the current government of Afghanistan and the Taliban?

I’d been saying it all along, but it made me an anti-Bush party pooper of epic proportions.

When you sign religious ideology into law, this is the kind of whacked-out bullshit it creates. If you sign radical religious ideology into law, you have a quagmire of bullshit that is impossible to resolve. It’s very nature prohibits any reasonable progress.

Iraq isn’t far behind. Both Iraq and Afghanistan keep their Korans and their politics inextricably intertwined. In both cases our brainchildren in DC looked the other way as this became the law of the land, as if we didn’t think this would come back to bite everyone in the ass.

It will.

205 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:21:30am
206 shaker  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:24:01am

Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the bible into English. But this happened in the beginning of the 16th century. Where do these Muslims get their ideas from?

207 stevieray  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:32:13am

re: #179 Ojoe

Sufis are fine.

Looking for the Sufis to be some sort of panacea is short sighted. They are not immune to Mahdiist movements and the violent conquest those movements engender.

Example: Muhammad Ahmad.

208 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:32:39am

re: #205 ploome hineni

unbelievable mistake

to allow any religious basis and es[pecially sharia law be part of any ‘constitution’

My understanding of Jewish history is that the Jews also had a shari’a during the Second Temple. It’s called “the Torah”.

Hanukah started because the Jewish priest tried to implement a Greek-style constitution. The Maccabees then declared that a rival torah, and rebelled, and implemented the old torah as a constitution.

And then some reactionaries decided that the old torah didn’t go far enough; which is why we (well, the Ethiopians) now have Jubilees and the Dead Sea Scrolls had the Damascus Document, and 4QMMT, and the Temple Scroll etc etc.

Judaism today looks to me like Hanafi Sunnism; rabbinic rulings based on precedent and given some leeway for implementation…

209 Scion9  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:33:01am

re: #191 ploome hineni

they are?

No.

210 stevieray  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:35:17am

re: #207 stevieray

That comment of mine sounds too harsh — I shouldn’t have used the phrase “short sighted”.

211 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:35:17am
212 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:36:50am
213 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:37:17am
214 J.D.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #171 JHW

Heh, got you covered,
Muhammed’s ‘Believe it or Else”

You bad.
;-)

215 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:38:07am
216 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:48:08am

SHOW THEM THE TALKING DOLL!

217 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:48:17am

re: #211 ploome hineni

‘your understanding’ says it all

/everyone has an asshole and an opinion

My source is Gabriele Boccacini, “Beyond The Essene Hypothesis” pp.90-91 (helpfully excerpted by Google Books) and the priest to which I referred is Menelaos (171-161 BCE). It wasn’t just Antiochus IV Epiphanes who caused the disturbance, although he assuredly did not help with his meddling.

I would LOVE to get my hands on a copy of whatever Menelaos wrote as a constitution / torah for Judaia. Was it really as bad as they say…?

218 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:53:12am
219 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 11:58:56am

re: #218 ploome hineni

considering the historical adversarial position of the Church…any Church towards Judiasm
why would you consider anything written by these Priests truthful or valid?

remember…by their fruits shall ye know them

who are the murdering psychopaths?

Menelaos was the Jewish Cohen-in-charge at the time. I’m not aware that he was a “murdering psychopath” although admittedly he’s not remembered as a particularly good Jew.

Anyway, circling back to the topic, the reason he’s remembered by modern Jews as a villain is because he tried to abandon the “Jewish shari’a”, that is the use of the Torah as a national legal code. What I’d like to know, if anyone can show it to me, is whether Boccacini is right that Menelaos tried to implement a whole new Torah(!), or any written code of law that could be argued as a replacement for it.

220 GCPSteve  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:07:04pm

And Afghanistan’s court system appears to be stacked against those accused of religious crimes. Judges don’t want to seem soft on potential heretics and lawyers don’t want to be seen defending them, said Afzal Shurmach Nooristani, whose Afghan Legal Aid group is defending Zalmai.

Think Ron Kuby or Lynne Stewart are up for the job?

221 mean Gene  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:11:57pm

……but the Saudi’s KEEP translating the thing into English!
It must have something to do with ”authorization.”
I’m guessing a Saudi will be world-wide Caliph?

222 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:20:05pm

re: #221 mean Gene

……but the Saudi’s KEEP translating the thing into English!
It must have something to do with ”authorization.”
I’m guessing a Saudi will be world-wide Caliph?

The article mentions that there are already translations in Afghanistan; but they all have the original Arabic too. This new translation did away with the Arabic. It’s been interpreted, apparently, as a disparagement of God’s language.

Which is silly because everyone knows God is an Englishman. /

223 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:22:40pm

re: #208 Zimriel

My understanding of Jewish history is that the Jews also had a shari’a during the Second Temple. It’s called “the Torah”.

Hanukah started because the Jewish priest tried to implement a Greek-style constitution. The Maccabees then declared that a rival torah, and rebelled, and implemented the old torah as a constitution.

And then some reactionaries decided that the old torah didn’t go far enough; which is why we (well, the Ethiopians) now have Jubilees and the Dead Sea Scrolls had the Damascus Document, and 4QMMT, and the Temple Scroll etc etc.

Judaism today looks to me like Hanafi Sunnism; rabbinic rulings based on precedent and given some leeway for implementation…

Okay, I got dinged down…

Could the down-dinger explain to me what I got wrong in the above?

224 FabioC.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:26:36pm

Afghanista should not be a place to try nation-building. Iraq, yes, but that other neck of the woods, not.

Better let them do whatever they please within some loose limits.


Oh, it’s nice to see good old Ploomey discuss theology with her usual class once again…

225 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:29:40pm
226 proud to be an infidel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:30:20pm

re: #196 astronmr20

I have actually been on LGF while in UAE.

Felt damn good doing it too….

I’m currently in Kuwait and I am able to get on LGF here. I also could get on it within UAE and Saudi. BUT, the hierarchy of these countries may not have a clue what LGF is all about. It would just take one person to complain and then OFF THE NET we would go. They don’t seem to believe in diversity of opinion in Saudi, Kuwait OR even UAE.

227 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:30:55pm
228 mean Gene  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:31:18pm

But the English ones I’ve seen do NOT have any Arabic in them.
They are simple English translations STRAIGHT out of Saudi Arabia!
You mean it must be an ”interlinear?”
Or can it just have the arabic in after the Afghani language?
Because, like Hebrew, arabic runs the wrong way on the page.
(Oh, and re: the down ding: oft times the idea is dinged down as to say “I disagree” rather than the truthfulness of the thought.
And to many Jews the idea of equating the Torah with Sharia turns them off even if it is a valid point from the standpoint of linguistics or semantics.)

229 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:33:13pm

re: #225 ploome hineni

first time I downdinged anyone

now you have two

Torah and sharia do not belong in the same sentence

Right, because it offends your tender sensibilities.

P.S. the ayat al-rajam / verse of stoning: in which religion’s primary holy book is it to be found?

230 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:34:09pm
231 FabioC.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:36:17pm

Ploome, you are assuming a lot about me.

Maybe you don’t recall, and most newbies here cannot even know, but I remember the old times. And I have nothing to discuss.

232 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:38:10pm
233 FabioC.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:45:56pm

Ok, getting back to the important stuff and skipping the high-frequency disturbance…

The immensely backward culture of Afghanistan seems to be the main culprit here, rather than Islam itself. We should play by their rules and instead of supporting a centralized, supposedly-democratic government, ally with the less worse tribes.

234 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:46:56pm

re: #228 mean Gene

(Oh, and re: the down ding: oft times the idea is dinged down as to say “I disagree” rather than the truthfulness of the thought.
And to many Jews the idea of equating the Torah with Sharia turns them off even if it is a valid point from the standpoint of linguistics or semantics.)

Yeah, thanks, I know that. I was just trying to call out the individual who did it. It just irritates me to see people say… “grrr … he said something I don’t like … and I don’t have an answer close to hand so PUNISH HIM PERSONALLY!”

A bit like certain other people we know about, actually.

As for my crack about the stoning: I admit that was offensive, and cheap. However it is also true. Quite a few Torah quotes, usually the sort no sane Jew would ever endorse nowadays, ended up in Islamic tradition - sometimes as part of Qur’an, sometimes as “hadith qudsi” (i.e. God’s words… somewhere… which Mo picked up and passed on).

I suspect the earliest strain of Islam passed itself off as a revival movement of the Torah. But it was Arabs doing most of the grunt work, and leading the thing. The Arabs didn’t understand the Torah very well. Still don’t.

But my larger point that the Torah was intended as a religious law stands. I mean, it’s a religious book. And its name means “Law”. Duh.

235 mean Gene  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:50:32pm

re: #233 FabioC.

Ok, getting back to the important stuff and skipping the high-frequency disturbance…

The immensely backward culture of Afghanistan seems to be the main culprit here, rather than Islam itself. We should play by their rules and instead of supporting a centralized, supposedly-democratic government, ally with the less worse tribes.

Wouldn’t it be nice (admit it, you have to agree) if some of these sort-of-Sharia states made clear in writing (in the language of their subjects) each and every deviation from their actual books, the Koran and Hadith?
That way would save a lot of people their heads, their hands, their feet, their poor whipped backs, and their money.

The Saudi’s, for example, just today re-iterated that No Other Religion may be worshiped in anything other than a private home.
At least they said it.
Now, where are all of the new mosques the Saudi’s are building?
All over the rest of the planet!

236 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:51:33pm
237 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:54:05pm
238 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:55:15pm
239 mean Gene  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:55:32pm

Personally, I think all of the consanguinous marriage finally caught up with these people.
How many hidden defects (like mental, learning, behavioural) must they have after so many generations of first cousins as ancestors?

240 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:58:31pm
241 FabioC.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 12:59:10pm

re: #235 mean Gene

Of course it would be. Knowledge is power, and an unbound study on the origins and text of the Koran would help a lot - to my knowledge, the text of the Bible has been anlyzed in depth, for example.

My point was more localized, tho. In short, the culture of Afghanistan is too close and backward for any hopes of renovation in the short term. Iraq and other states seem to be, instead.

242 mean Gene  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:08:11pm

re: #241 FabioC.

Of course it would be. Knowledge is power, and an unbound study on the origins and text of the Koran would help a lot - to my knowledge, the text of the Bible has been anlyzed in depth, for example.

My point was more localized, tho. In short, the culture of Afghanistan is too close and backward for any hopes of renovation in the short term. Iraq and other states seem to be, instead.

See, I disagree.
Sure Afghanistan IS backward.
And sure other Muslim countries are not as backward.
BUT it only takes one thug marrying one daughter in an extended family and very quickly the whole family is repressed.
All the females are covered and out of school.
All the males are stuck in five prayers a day and have to ”act” all macho over their women or else look like ”apostates.”
If you read the book of compilations by Ibn Warriq called “Leaving Islam” you will see this play out over and over all over dar al Islam.
Only a few escapees live to tell about it, like those in that book.
Most of the folks just shut their mouths and play along, even willingly going to public executions of people who were doing what they, themselves had freely been doing a few months before the marriage brought the one thug into the family.

243 FabioC.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:19:51pm

re: #242 mean Gene

It goes as you say in some cases, it goes not in others. In my quite a few yers on LGF I’ve been through countless discussions of this kind, and i am tired of them.

My experience in Indonesia tells me that a quite morel iberal Islam (as liberal as the Victorian age, more or less) is possible, but I just agree to disagree.

Right, this was a brief comeback on LGF. I don’t think I will be around for more discussion anytime soon.

244 mean Gene  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:30:19pm

re: #243 FabioC.

Actually, if you read the news about Islam in Indonesia you’ll see it is becoming very thuggish just in recent activity.
Sad, too.
Beautiful place.

245 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:37:16pm
246 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:38:12pm
247 Zimriel  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:41:36pm

re: #237 ploome hineni

how many stonings in the Bible?

do you understand “an eye for an eye”?

[Link: www.judaism.com…]

Take it up with Deuteronomy 22:23-24. This was law under King Josiah of Judah (and Israel, which he’d reconquered from the crumbling Assyrians).

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

We also have Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud, IV.14.9 - “He who has criminal connexion with a betrothed damsel is guilty only if she be a virgin, betrothed, and in her father’s house. If two have criminal connexion with her, the first is to be stoned and the second strangled.”

248 FabioC.  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 1:49:02pm

No, I must resist…

I have to…

Oh fuck, I had six beers already, who cares.

ploome, you’re a fucking ****, ahah.

249 uptight  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 2:15:21pm

ROPMA

He should reprint the book, but this time have it illustrated with saucy cartoons of The Prophet (PBUH), wearing high heels and one of those fruity hats worn by Carmen Miranda.

250 Cutty Sark  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 2:40:08pm

uhhhhh. hello ! the year is 2009 , man has allegedly shed barbarism , man has allegedly understood {by enlightenment ] that we do not stone people for adultery , nor do we make up ridiculous rules regarding the execution of those who break what a religion considers a moral offense worthy of death .
We , in otherwords, have gotten past the notion that we are NOT The Right Hand of God ………..NOT [apparently ] .

Screw ALL the religious fanatics , get our boys out of Iraq and Afghanistan , let’em kill each other if that’s what they desire , afterall it’s going on in other less noteworthy nations in the world .

Let them terrorize one another [ just like they’re doing now ] and when it spills over into our interests or security , take credible action [bombing by air , shelling and missles by sea ] AND BE DONE WITH THEM NO MORE WASTE OF BLOOD AND TREASURE .

251 Cutty Sark  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 2:49:58pm

And take that phony “rationale ” expressed by ploome henini ” and put it where the sun dont shine .

252 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 3:38:27pm

re: #208 Zimriel

true. Islam is copied from Judaism and their people have the same ethnicity and language roots

253 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 3:41:18pm

re: #202 Zimriel

my sources is from a reading material by Dr. Abdul-Karim Soroush, an Iranian Islamologist and philosopher. The Shia sect of Islam that was developed in Lebanon and Iran is the direct result of a major break from Sunni Islam.

254 winston06  Fri, Feb 6, 2009 3:42:20pm

re: #196 astronmr20

It was filtered once I used it in Dubai

255 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 7, 2009 6:19:35am

re: #229 Zimriel

P.S. the ayat al-rajam / verse of stoning: in which religion’s primary holy book is it to be found?

I was looking for that in the Koran, but couldn’t find it. It never occurred to me to look in the Torah.


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