Isn't Perry the one Molly Ivins used to refer to as "Goodhair"?

You mean, the Earth isn't 6000 years old?

"The religious far right is intent on dragging the Republican Party back into the Dark Ages."

You are right.

re: #2 Shay4l

You mean, the Earth isn't 6000 years old?

The Earth was created yesterday, it just looks 6000 years old.
/

We all know that Republicans and Republican politicians are not almost all creationists. Behead those who say different!
/

Someone should poll these governors on this and flesh out their belief systems.

re: #2 Shay4l

You mean, the Earth isn't 6000 years old?

6013 years to be exact.

The governor is just upholding the Texas state party platform:

We support objective teaching and equal treatment of strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design. We believe theories of life origins and environmental theories should be taught as scientific theory, not scientific law. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind.

Not that it's an excuse, mind you.

The GOP will never learn.
They claim to be embracing their roots as they continue to cling to the far right wing of the party.

re: #9 gman

They're working from an outdated model. They'll get back on track eventually but it's going to take some time.

Look at Nancy Pelosi. She's repeatedly reelected to a job she's not remotely qualified to hold.

LOL! Actually- I think the authors of the platform don't realize that they've opened the door with their language to dissect ID.

We support objective teaching and equal treatment of strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design.

Thy can possible be advocating teaching the weaknesses in ID, but if I was a science teacher in Texas, that's exactly what I'd do- starting with Ken Miller's dissection of the weaknesses of ID.

re: #8 Sharmuta

Notice how they misuse the word theory again.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

We all know that Republicans and Republican politicians are not almost all creationists. Behead those who say different!
/

It could be worse. They could be corrupt neo-Republ-I-don't-stand- for-anything-except-getting-rich-off-of-corruption-ican politicians

re: #11 logboy

Look at Nancy Pelosi. She's repeatedly reelected to a job she's not remotely qualified to hold.

She's 6000 years old too, and doesn't look a day over 1200.

re: #7 JCM

6013 years to be exact.

Thanks! I'm going to plug that into my next ritual!

re: #13 gman

Notice how they misuse the word theory again.

Of course! It's par for the course.

If a regular Jane like me can figure out what "theory" means in scientific terms, anyone can.

re: #10 Killgore Trout

They're working from an outdated model. They'll get back on track eventually but it's going to take some time.

They've disappointed me time and time again. I can't help but think that we should put our support behind a third party option.

re: #17 Sharmuta

Of course! It's par for the course.

If a regular Jane like me can figure out what "theory" means in scientific terms, anyone can.

Sharmuta, that's just a theory and you know it!
;-P

re: #9 gman

The GOP will never learn.
They claim to be embracing their roots as they continue to cling to the far right wing of the party.

At this moment, I'm particularly appalled by a party that could claim to uphold the rule of law on one hand, and on the other advocate undermining the Constitution. It's intellectually dishonest, and completely hypocritical.

re: #20 Sharmuta

At this moment, I'm particularly appalled by a party that could claim to uphold the rule of law on one hand, and on the other advocate undermining the Constitution. It's intellectually dishonest, and completely hypocritical.

Actually, you've described both parties perfectly.

State GOP platforms that advocate teaching the controversy (or outright creationism):

Alaska
Oregon
Texas
Louisiana (not the platform, but it is law, so I included them)
Iowa
Minnesota

21 state platforms say nothing on the issue.
22 state parties do not list their platform on the internet

Missouri punts the issue to the local school boards.

States whose platform has no mention of evolutionary teachings:

Arkansas
California
Idaho
Nevada
Washington
Maine
New Mexico
West Virginia
Florida
Vermont
Wisconsin
Illinois
South Dakota
North Dakota
Wyoming
Montana
South Carolina
North Carolina
Nebraska
Utah
New Hampshire

Of the 22 states who do not list their platform on their websites- stay tuned.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

We all know that Republicans and Republican politicians are not almost all creationists. Behead those who say different!
/

I don't know if this statement as implied is true. Or maybe it's as valid a statement as Ann Coulter saying most all Democrats are Godless. That puts both statements in the same logical boat.

I would like to see a litmus test of these Governors and just ask them directly. I have a hard time finding who does and doesn't believe in a young earth. Church membership of and by itself doesn't seem to be an accurate description of an American individual.

I think the appointment is poor judgement. I think what these people want is values incorporated into public education and they somehow see this as the best avenue. When it's probably the worst.

In evolutionary talk, I expect young earthers to eventually die out as natural selection weeds them out as inappropriate people who couldn't adjust to science.

re: #14 Shay4l

It could be worse. They could be corrupt neo-Republ-I-don't-stand- for-anything-except-getting-rich-off-of-corruption -ican politicians

eg. Democrats.

re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist

Isn't Perry the one Molly Ivins used to refer to as "Goodhair"?

No, that was Blogo.
/

re: #17 Sharmuta

Of course! It's par for the course.

If a regular Jane like me can figure out what "theory" means in scientific terms, anyone can.

That was the state party platform. They are pathetic.

re: #3 ggt

"The religious far right is intent on dragging the Republican Party back into the Dark Ages."

You are right.

But not, "far right."

re: #23 hazzyday

In evolutionary talk, I expect young earthers to eventually die out as natural selection weeds them out as inappropriate people who couldn't adjust to science.

In religious talk, amen!

re: #22 Sharmuta

State GOP platforms that advocate teaching the controversy (or outright creationism):

Alaska
Oregon
Texas
Louisiana (not the platform, but it is law, so I included them)
Iowa
Minnesota

21 state platforms say nothing on the issue.
22 state parties do not list their platform on the internet

Missouri punts the issue to the local school boards.

States whose platform has no mention of evolutionary teachings:

Arkansas
California
Idaho
Nevada
Washington
Maine
New Mexico
West Virginia
Florida
Vermont
Wisconsin
Illinois
South Dakota
North Dakota
Wyoming
Montana
South Carolina
North Carolina
Nebraska
Utah
New Hampshire

Of the 22 states who do not list their platform on their websites- stay tuned.

Great work Sharmuta you have been busy.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

We all know that Republicans and Republican politicians are not almost all creationists. Behead those who say different!
/

Updinged from discussion on earlier thread.

This is pathetic. And I thought the Democrats were suicidal when they nominated Kerry. Talk about being blinded by faith.

Perry's re-election ads were pretty funny. He's striding down a trail in Big Bend National Park on the border with a concerned look on his face while the voice over explains how he's going to stop illegal immigration.

We laughed out loud, it was so ludicrous, that he was going to stop ANY immigration.

re: #25 Unakite

No, that was Blogo.
/

That hair really is something, innit?

How do you fight religious extremism when you simply practice a different form of religious extremism? The GOP's remaining credibility will be lost.

I've been depressed about this for quite some time. The Terri Schiavo debacle was shameful.

I've been doing some deep thinking about all this lately.

One one side (of the border) we have the Islamawhackos that want to create a world Muslim theocracy. One the other side, we have Christianwhackos wanting to create a Christian theocracy.

Now, both of the whackogroups are a very small in number, but have done their propagana homework and are willing to sacrifice a lot of blood, sweat and tears to accomplish their goal.

The goals are deceivingly the same for both.

+control of women
+control of moral behavior
+control of ___
+control of ___
+control of ___

You get the picture. So, in essence, these whackos want control. They do not believe in dignity of the individual. They do not believe that the concept of Free Will is valid.

I do not believe they are misguided, I believe they are evil.

I think the whackos ability to identify themselves with mainstream religious people is their most dangerous attribute.

re: #21 alexknyc

Actually, you've described both parties perfectly.

We think we're better than democrats, though. We need to take a hard look at ourselves and be honest. If we can't be intellectually honest with ourselves, how can we possibly convince the electorate?

I'll be blunt. If the GOP wants to be the party for hard core fundamentalists, then they will continue to lose, as quite a few Christian denominations fall outside that category. That's not a party I'm interested in supporting, despite my spiritual classification as a Christian.

Look on the bright side. If the Islamist win, the Texas State Board of Education will be able to save a lot of money on science books.

re: #35 ggt

I think the whackos ability to identify themselves with mainstream religious people is their most dangerous attribute.

Indeed. And anyone who tries to make the distinction, or call them on it is labeled a heretic and condemned to hell.

re: #36 Sharmuta

We think we're better than democrats, though. We need to take a hard look at ourselves and be honest. If we can't be intellectually honest with ourselves, how can we possibly convince the electorate?

I'll be blunt. If the GOP wants to be the party for hard core fundamentalists, then they will continue to lose, as quite a few Christian denominations fall outside that category. That's not a party I'm interested in supporting, despite my spiritual classification as a Christian.

I don't blame you one bit. I've been longing for a party that has sound fiscal policy, sane foreign policy (including understanding the difference between friends/allies and business partners) and a willingness to stay out of people's lives as much as possible. When one of those rolls around, sign me up.

re: #2 Shay4l

You mean, the Earth isn't 6000 years old?

Hell, no. I got towels that old.

Ok, I emailed Rick Santorum and asked him what he believed about this. I've emailed Jindal also before with the same question only to never even be acknowledged with even a chain letter response.

Where are the reporters? I want to know what these governor's believe.

re: #35 ggt

I've been doing some deep thinking about all this lately.

One one side (of the border) we have the Islamawhackos that want to create a world Muslim theocracy. One the other side, we have Christianwhackos wanting to create a Christian theocracy.

Now, both of the whackogroups are a very small in number, but have done their propagana homework and are willing to sacrifice a lot of blood, sweat and tears to accomplish their goal.

The goals are deceivingly the same for both.

+control of women
+control of moral behavior
+control of ___
+control of ___
+control of ___

You get the picture. So, in essence, these whackos want control. They do not believe in dignity of the individual. They do not believe that the concept of Free Will is valid.

I do not believe they are misguided, I believe they are evil.

I think the whackos ability to identify themselves with mainstream religious people is their most dangerous attribute.

You could say the same thing about the Marxistwhackos. All what control, all what to limit liberty and individual sovereignty.

I can speak to the Christianwhackos, as a Christian (hopefully not a whacko) the one who do so miss a very important thing. The first thing God did was give man a choice. You would think they would have as much consideration for people as God did.

re: #40 HelloDare

Hell, no. I got towels that old.

You've convinced me :o)

re: #38 Sharmuta

Indeed. And anyone who tries to make the distinction, or call them on it is labeled a heretic and condemned to hell.

So many of the questions about the "key" issues are framed.

Such as, "do you believe G-d created the Earth?". Well, any religious person would most likely answer "yes". Then it becomes poiltical . . ..

re: #40 HelloDare

Hell, no. I got towels that old.

That's what that smell is! Damn, I thought it was my socks all this time.

re: #9 gman

The GOP will never learn.
They claim to be embracing their roots as they continue to cling to the far right wing of the party.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe the problem is being looked at the wrong way. Maybe it's not that the GOP is clinging to the far right wing, but that the far right wing is gaining a lot of influence, and the far left wing knows how to attack and spin it.

re: #42 JCM

"You would think they would have as much consideration for people as God did."

Would be nice, huh?

Yes, I think there are a lot of similarities with the collectivist political ideologies.

re: #41 hazzyday

Ok, I emailed Rick Santorum and asked him what he believed about this. I've emailed Jindal also before with the same question only to never even be acknowledged with even a chain letter response.

Where are the reporters? I want to know what these governor's believe.

Santorum pushed for ID legislation, and though his amendment to a bill was removed, it is still in the Congressional record.

Jindal signed an ID bill into law.

I think it's safe to say these men support creationism in public school science classrooms.

Governor Religious affiliations Here is a general religious note on governors.

re: #45 JCM

That's what that smell is! Damn, I thought it was my socks all this time.

Towel's are clean. Family heirloom from when the HelloDare family lived in trees.

re: #48 Sharmuta

Santorum pushed for ID legislation, and though his amendment to a bill was removed, it is still in the Congressional record.

Jindal signed an ID bill into law.

I think it's safe to say these men support creationism in public school science classrooms.

I agree, I would just like to see it in print that they believe the earth is only 6000 years old.

re: #49 hazzyday

Governor Religious affiliations Here is a general religious note on governors.

But, religious affiliations do not tell us on which side of the ID they fall.

re: #15 JCM

She's 6000 years old too, and doesn't look a day over 1200.

Almost up dinged, but just the thought of a 1200-year-old Nancy Pelosi gave me nightmares, and I'm still awake.

re: #50 HelloDare

Towel's are clean. Family heirloom from when the HelloDare family lived in trees.

Sniff, sniff...
Socks it is I guess.

re: #44 ggt

No. It doesn't become political until the next question.

"Do you feel the need to make other believe it too?"

re: #51 hazzyday

I agree, I would just like to see it in print that they believe the earth is only 6000 years old.

Not even Young Earth creationists outside of politics like to be nailed down by that one, because they know it's fringe.

re: #49 hazzyday

Governor Religious affiliations Here is a general religious note on governors.

That list is obviously wrong. Half the Democratic governors believe Obama is god.

re: #46 Unakite

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe the problem is being looked at the wrong way. Maybe it's not that the GOP is clinging to the far right wing, but that the far right wing is gaining a lot of influence, and the far left wing knows how to attack and spin it.

When your state party platform advocates the teaching of ID, you're blatantly asking for trouble.

re: #55 Dan G.

PIMF "other[s]"

re: #53 Unakite

Almost up dinged, but just the thought of a 1200-year-old Nancy Pelosi gave me nightmares, and I'm still awake.

LOL! Who needs horror movies, when we've got congress!

re: #55 Dan G.

No. It doesn't become political until the next question.

"Do you feel the need to make other believe it too?"

Or, "Do you feel you will be punished in the afterlife if the whole world doesn't believe it too?"

re: #35 ggt

I've been doing some deep thinking about all this lately.

One one side (of the border) we have the Islamawhackos that want to create a world Muslim theocracy. One the other side, we have Christianwhackos wanting to create a Christian theocracy.

Now, both of the whackogroups are a very small in number, but have done their propagana homework and are willing to sacrifice a lot of blood, sweat and tears to accomplish their goal.

The goals are deceivingly the same for both.

+control of women
+control of moral behavior
+control of ___
+control of ___
+control of ___

You get the picture. So, in essence, these whackos want control. They do not believe in dignity of the individual. They do not believe that the concept of Free Will is valid.

I do not believe they are misguided, I believe they are evil.

I think the whackos ability to identify themselves with mainstream religious people is their most dangerous attribute.

I think you make sense.

What's the distinguishing characteristic, though, that separates a whacko from a regular religious nut? I think this is the crucial part, in addressing any kind of whackofaith. How do we sort them out from the woodwork of mainstream religious people? What's the line?

re: #52 ggt

But, religious affiliations do not tell us on which side of the ID they fall.

You are right. It would be interesting to know. It seems to be hidden information so maybe I can assume the worst.

I usually cringe at identity checks for stuff like this. People can get carried away. But in this case I would like to know in the interest of political full disclosure.

re: #58 gman

When your state party platform advocates the teaching of ID, you're blatantly asking for trouble.

Honest question (to anyone who wants to weigh in):

Is a Democrat preferable to you?

Again- I would like to see a new PAC formed- Republicans for Sound Science.

Or something along those lines, because it's time for the rational wing of the party to push back.

re: #21 alexknyc

Actually, you've described both parties perfectly.

Trading Spaces.

re: #61 ggt

Exactly. The line is drawn when "others" (i.e. a polity) are considered.

re: #60 JCM

LOL! Who needs horror movies, when we've got congress!

*shot of Reid and Pelosi ripping intestines from a taxpayer*

re: #57 HelloDare

That list is obviously wrong. Half the Democratic governors believe Obama is god.

Lol. I upding when someone makes me laugh.

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you make sense.

What's the distinguishing characteristic, though, that separates a whacko from a regular religious nut? I think this is the crucial part, in addressing any kind of whackofaith. How do we sort them out from the woodwork of mainstream religious people? What's the line?

Well, I think DanG made a good point.

The line is drawn at my front door.

re: #64 capitalist piglet

Honest question (to anyone who wants to weigh in):

Is a Democrat preferable to you?

I mentioned above I'm beginning to think a 3rd party option might be the only way out of this mess. The GOP panders too much to their far right constituency.

re: #65 Sharmuta

Again- I would like to see a new PAC formed- Republicans for Sound Science.

Or something along those lines, because it's time for the rational wing of the party to push back.

Hoe do we go about making this happen?

re: #56 Sharmuta

Not even Young Earth creationists outside of politics like to be nailed down by that one, because they know it's fringe.

I vote R , but here is where the D could pressure R's easily. Democrats just make it part of their election process. Then we will get to Kilgore's truth.

re: #72 alexknyc

How

pimf

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

That hair really is something, innit?

I guess now that's about all he's got left (except a vulgar wife and a big case of denial).

re: #63 hazzyday

You are right. It would be interesting to know. It seems to be hidden information so maybe I can assume the worst.

I usually cringe at identity checks for stuff like this. People can get carried away. But in this case I would like to know in the interest of political full disclosure.

AND, as with many issues, mature people can separate personal beliefs from public duty. Not that many of our politicians are that mature.

i.e.: I, personally believe, my dogs are quite special. I don't think that the laws of the country should be rewritten to recognize their civil rights.

re: #71 gman

I mentioned above I'm beginning to think a 3rd party option might be the only way out of this mess. The GOP panders too much to their far right constituency.

My Republican Dad also voiced this to me over Superbowl beers. Only he said. "I liked that guy... that guy... hmmm what was his name? It had 4 letters in it."

I paused for a bit and then said "Paul?"

"yes that's him."

re: #75 Unakite

I guess now that's about all he's got left (except a vulgar wife and a big case of denial).

And a trial where he'll try to take as many Illinois politicians down with him as he can.

re: #8 Sharmuta

The governor is just upholding the Texas state party platform:
We support objective teaching and equal treatment of strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design. We believe theories of life origins and environmental theories should be taught as scientific theory, not scientific law. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind.

Not that it's an excuse, mind you.

Equal treatment, of course, does not mean holding ID to the same scientific standard as Darwin. It means affirmative action for ID.

There are the strengths of Darwin's approach, and the weaknesses of ID's totally unscientific approach. Now of course no student should face retribution for espousing wrongheaded nonsense in science class. That happens all the time, because students don't automatically and immediately understand science. They will flounder from time to time.

What is unacceptable is that under this policy, the teacher who leads them into error and tries to get them to flounder is exempt from consequences.

Students who might otherwise refrain from taunting the child who does understand, in a class that by native sentiment is creationist, will be encouraged if the teacher won't stick up for science. That's retribution of a sort, as silence becomes consent.

The Texas state GOP party platform again:

We support objective teaching and equal treatment of strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design. We believe theories of life origins and environmental theories should be taught as scientific theory, not scientific law. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind.

The Kitzmiller decision has already rendered ID as un-Constitutional. It is shocking to me that a political party would continue to advocate pushing a known un-Constitutional agenda. What do they possibly hope to gain from this? It is folly.

It is crucial for the Republicans to make Individual Rights a central point of their new platform (and I don't mean just a god-damned marketing slogan either). Once there are individuals who recognize Individual Rights, then even if the politician is religious, he/she would respect others' rights to be "wrong" (in that politician's opinion). It is my enshrinement of Individual Rights that essentially allows me to get along with most (not all) religious types even though I am a thorough-going atheist. Individual Rights is central to America being the paradise it is, and the loss, or ignorance, or Individual Rights is what is causing the majority (if not all) of our social problems.

re: #76 ggt

AND, as with many issues, mature people can separate personal beliefs from public duty. Not that many of our politicians are that mature.

i.e.: I, personally believe, my dogs are quite special. I don't think that the laws of the country should be rewritten to recognize their civil rights.

I agree with that also, that the good person puts their beliefs aside to make political decisions. But in the case of these school boards I think some politicans are on a slippery slope and let "wedge" type ideas slip into their policies.

re: #78 alexknyc

And a trial where he'll try to take as many Illinois politicians down with him as he can.

Don't bet on it. The Combine is well insulated. Blagohair seems to think he is above the rules of the game.

In Chicago the rules are: "If you get caught, you LOSE". Plain and simple.

re: #72 alexknyc

At the moment, I have my hands full, but I will be researching soon.

It's raining, raining, RAINING!

Tomorrow the gloomy newspeople will be saying it's too late, and we're doomed this summer anyway, but it sounds glorious.

re: #77 hazzyday

My Republican Dad also voiced this to me over Superbowl beers. Only he said. "I liked that guy... that guy... hmmm what was his name? It had 4 letters in it."

I paused for a bit and then said "Paul?"

"yes that's him."

That's the problem. Everyone thinks Ron Paul or an image of some other paranoid anarcho- libertarian when they think 3rd party.
I'm thinking of someone smart, balanced like Charles. What do you say, Charles?

re: #82 hazzyday

I agree with that also, that the good person puts their beliefs aside to make political decisions. But in the case of these school boards I think some politicans are on a slippery slope and let "wedge" type ideas slip into their policies.

I'm not sure that there are actual "politicans" on the school boards. Mostly just whackoshills with an agenda.

re: #80 Sharmuta

I'm beginning to believe anytime I hear the far right talk about returning to America's past, they're not talking about Jefferson, Franklin et al... They're talking about the Pilgrims, Cotton Mather (even heard O'Reilly fawning of Mather) etc... They have no respect for The Constitution, period.

re: #81 Dan G.

Individual Rights is central to America being the paradise it is, and the loss, or ignorance, or Individual Rights is what is causing the majority (if not all) of our social problems.

You are wrong, you hell bound atheist! Darwin is the problem. DARWIN! ;p

re: #79 lostlakehiker

Equal treatment, of course, does not mean holding ID to the same scientific standard as Darwin. It means affirmative action for ID.

There are the strengths of Darwin's approach, and the weaknesses of ID's totally unscientific approach. Now of course no student should face retribution for espousing wrongheaded nonsense in science class. That happens all the time, because students don't automatically and immediately understand science. They will flounder from time to time.

What is unacceptable is that under this policy, the teacher who leads them into error and tries to get them to flounder is exempt from consequences.

Students who might otherwise refrain from taunting the child who does understand, in a class that by native sentiment is creationist, will be encouraged if the teacher won't stick up for science. That's retribution of a sort, as silence becomes consent.

There's another problem with it too. Teachers especially K-12 teachers have degrees in education, not necessarily the subject they teach. You end up with teachers teaching science who aren't well grounded in the concepts, terminology, history, processes of science.

The result is the subject gets taught without the context and texture of the whole thing, and misconceptions and other errors become magnified.

re: #88 Dan G.

I'm beginning to believe anytime I hear the far right talk about returning to America's past, they're not talking about Jefferson, Franklin et al... They're talking about the Pilgrims, Cotton Mather (even heard O'Reilly fawning of Mather) etc... They have no respect for The Constitution, period.

The thing is that to many in this country "returning to America's past" is interpreted as repealing everything past the Emancipation Proclamation.

How many of those governors are being politically correct? Could you get elected in this country if you said you were an agnostic or an atheist?

How many Democrats or Republicans are just pretending? And how far back does it go? Probably back to the founding fathers. I believe only Franklin was a professed agnostic. Lincoln waffled, from what I've read. That's usually couched as having doubts. Why isn't referred to as having doubts about being an agnostic or an atheist?

re: #89 Sharmuta

Yea! Darwin and that demmed Nicolas Steno... don't forget him, he's the one all of the fossil guys rely on! ;)
/

re: #90 JCM

There's another problem with it too. Teachers especially K-12 teachers have degrees in education, not necessarily the subject they teach. You end up with teachers teaching science who aren't well grounded in the concepts, terminology, history, processes of science.

The result is the subject gets taught without the context and texture of the whole thing, and misconceptions and other errors become magnified.

That is a significant problem.

I'm a high school history teacher with a degree in history. I'm the exception, rather than the rule.

re: #88 Dan G.

I'm beginning to believe anytime I hear the far right talk about returning to America's past, they're not talking about Jefferson, Franklin et al... They're talking about the Pilgrims, Cotton Mather (even heard O'Reilly fawning of Mather) etc... They have no respect for The Constitution, period.

It's Calvin's Geneva they want.

re: #88 Dan G.

I'm beginning to believe anytime I hear the far right talk about returning to America's past, they're not talking about Jefferson, Franklin et al... They're talking about the Pilgrims, Cotton Mather (even heard O'Reilly fawning of Mather) etc... They have no respect for The Constitution, period.

Yes- from reading "Monkey Girl" I've come to realize there are many other code phrases including "returning to our roots" which by that they don't mean the Enlightenment.

But, you know, with much less intellectual rigor.

The Texas State Board of Education has a great deal of influence that extends beyond the borders of Texas. Textbook publishers will almost always conform to the standards adopted by Texas and California since those markets are too large to ignore. So what your child reads in their textbooks whether in NY, or Illinois, or PA, or any of the other states will be determined by what makes it past the Texas State Board of Education.

A man arrives at the gates of Heaven.

St. Peter asks, "Religion?"

"Methodist," the man says.

St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to Room 24, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8."

Another man arrives at the gates of Heaven.

"Religion?"

"Baptist."

"Go to Room 18, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8."

A third man arrives at the gates.

"Religion?"

"Jewish."

"Go to Room 11, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8."

The man says, "I can understand there being Different rooms for different religions, but why must we all be quiet when we pass Room 8?"

"Well, the Catholics are in Room 8," St. Peter replies, "and they think they're the only ones here."

re: #35 ggt

I've been doing some deep thinking about all this lately.

One one side (of the border) we have the Islamawhackos that want to create a world Muslim theocracy. One the other side, we have Christianwhackos wanting to create a Christian theocracy.

Now, both of the whackogroups are a very small in number, but have done their propagana homework and are willing to sacrifice a lot of blood, sweat and tears to accomplish their goal.

The goals are deceivingly the same for both.

+control of women
+control of moral behavior
+control of ___
+control of ___
+control of ___

You get the picture. So, in essence, these whackos want control. They do not believe in dignity of the individual. They do not believe that the concept of Free Will is valid.

I do not believe they are misguided, I believe they are evil.

I think the whackos ability to identify themselves with mainstream religious people is their most dangerous attribute.

The dangerous attribute which is NOT equally distributed among Muslim and Christian whackos is that Muslim extremists are taught that killing everybody who doesn't fall in line and salute their faith is God's will.

With the exception perhaps of the Rev. Jim Jones of Koolaid infamy, you just don't get that from Christians. Since a ready resort to killing is a pretty big deal, this makes Christian religious extremism a totally different phenomenon. We here can resist it, object vocally and vociferously, even be insulting, and we aren't going to find ourselves starring in some beheading video.

The answer to Christian extremism is argument. The answer to the other is a cool-headed and courageous determination to meet force with force, in whatever measure it takes.

re: #98 MJ

The Texas State Board of Education has a great deal of influence that extends beyond the borders of Texas. Textbook publishers will almost always conform to the standards adopted by Texas and California since those markets are too large to ignore. So what your child reads in their textbooks whether in NY, or Illinois, or PA, or any of the other states will be determined by what makes it past the Texas State Board of Education.

That's partly because Texas buys textbooks as a state. Most other states allow local school boards to decide on texts for themselves.

re: #91 ggt

I don't doubt what you say, but I haven't had any run-ins with anyone who's espoused THAT opinion (fortunately). Those that I talk to typically bring up the political ideas/exchanges between Jefferson/Adams/etc... NOT anything about undoing emancipation.

One reason I'm less agnostic than I used to be is the concept of Free Will.

For the record, I never doubted that there is a higher Power. I doubt(ed) organized religion.

I believe most religious tenets are valid, I'm leary of anyone who interprets them.

IMHO, Organized Religion is the only real way the concept of Free Will can be taught.

Report: Shalit deal may be reached by Tuesday

Turkish news channel CNN Turk reported on Friday that a deal to secure the release of abducted Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit may be reached by Tuesday.

The TV channel said that Turkish officials were currently holding talks on the issue with Hamas officials in Damascus, the base of the Islamist militant group's political leadership.

Reuters Friday quoted a Palestinian official as saying that Turkey and Qatar have taken a lead role in the negotiations over Shalit in recent months.

The CNN Turk report came after Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Friday said that Israel's leadership was making "supreme" efforts to bring Shalit back home.

"Supreme efforts are being made in order to hurry the moment when Gilad Shalit will come home," Barak told Channel 1. "We know that he is well, alive, breathing and okay, but we need to bring him here from there."

/if true, this would obviously be extremely good news!

re: #98 MJ

The Texas State Board of Education has a great deal of influence that extends beyond the borders of Texas. Textbook publishers will almost always conform to the standards adopted by Texas and California since those markets are too large to ignore. So what your child reads in their textbooks whether in NY, or Illinois, or PA, or any of the other states will be determined by what makes it past the Texas State Board of Education.

Which is exactly why the DI is pushing hard in Texas right now.

re: #100 lostlakehiker

The dangerous attribute which is NOT equally distributed among Muslim and Christian whackos is that Muslim extremists are taught that killing everybody who doesn't fall in line and salute their faith is God's will.

With the exception perhaps of the Rev. Jim Jones of Koolaid infamy, you just don't get that from Christians. Since a ready resort to killing is a pretty big deal, this makes Christian religious extremism a totally different phenomenon. We here can resist it, object vocally and vociferously, even be insulting, and we aren't going to find ourselves starring in some beheading video.

At least, not since the Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution.

When does Islam get some of that?

It will be ironic if liberals in Texas start home schooling their children because of the tripe that's taught in the schools. Hey, maybe now vouchers stand a chance.

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian."

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant."

I said, Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!"

I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.

re: #104 Killian Bundy

Report: Shalit deal may be reached by Tuesday

/if true, this would obviously be extremely good news!

I would be EXTREMELY surprised if Shalit is still alive.

re: #100 lostlakehiker

The dangerous attribute which is NOT equally distributed among Muslim and Christian whackos is that Muslim extremists are taught that killing everybody who doesn't fall in line and salute their faith is God's will.

With the exception perhaps of the Rev. Jim Jones of Koolaid infamy, you just don't get that from Christians. Since a ready resort to killing is a pretty big deal, this makes Christian religious extremism a totally different phenomenon. We here can resist it, object vocally and vociferously, even be insulting, and we aren't going to find ourselves starring in some beheading video.

The answer to Christian extremism is argument. The answer to the other is a cool-headed and courageous determination to meet force with force, in whatever measure it takes.

So if Muslim extremism is in the Thirty Years' War phase, does that hold out hope that some sort of Enlightenment-type movement is just down the road? (I keep waiting for Irshad Manji to lead some such thing, but I realize it's rather a lot to ask...)

re: #34 kay1212

How do you fight religious extremism when you simply practice a different form of religious extremism? The GOP's remaining credibility will be lost.

I've been depressed about this for quite some time. The Terri Schiavo debacle was shameful.

I'm assuming that you are referring to Islamic religious extremism. I'm not on the extremist side (either way), but I don't think the two are equivalent. Although the Terri Shiavo case may have been a debacle, at least they fought for the right cause. That type of religious extremism is diametrically opposed to the other type of religious extremism that not only celebrates death but exalts in trying to kill as many other people as they can, in the name of their religion.

Those Christians need to learn to just sit down and shut up. Who the hell do they think they are to challenge scientific consensus anyway?

re: #104 Killian Bundy

Report: Shalit deal may be reached by Tuesday

/if true, this would obviously be extremely good news!

Too afraid to hope. Praying, though.

re: #104 Killian Bundy

That's SPINOFF worthy.

re: #99 Erik The Red

A bus full of Baptist on the way to a revival crashes and all are killed.
The lot of them troop up to St. Peter and demand entry. "Sorry" says Peter but "the Methodists were right you have to go to hell."

Two weeks later Satan calls up God complaining about the Baptists.
"What's the problem" asks God.
Satan replies, "They've been here two weeks are already raised $20,000 for air conditioning!"

re: #107 HelloDare

HA! That'll be fun.

re: #109 alexknyc

I would be EXTREMELY surprised if Shalit is still alive.

The Israeli government thinks so.

Barak told Channel 1. "We know that he is well, alive, breathing and okay

/good enough for me

re: #105 Sharmuta

Which is exactly why the DI is pushing hard in Texas right now.

Texas is a giant mark in textbook sales.

re: #108 hazzyday

Easier for Muslims. Shia or Sunni.

re: #112 n2sooners

Its not just a consensus, you're trying to make it sound like the global warming scam.

re: #100 lostlakehiker

The dangerous attribute which is NOT equally distributed among Muslim and Christian whackos is that Muslim extremists are taught that killing everybody who doesn't fall in line and salute their faith is God's will.

With the exception perhaps of the Rev. Jim Jones of Koolaid infamy, you just don't get that from Christians. Since a ready resort to killing is a pretty big deal, this makes Christian religious extremism a totally different phenomenon. We here can resist it, object vocally and vociferously, even be insulting, and we aren't going to find ourselves starring in some beheading video.

The answer to Christian extremism is argument. The answer to the other is a cool-headed and courageous determination to meet force with force, in whatever measure it takes.

lostlakehiker --don't be too sure about that. I think there is a very small group of Christianwhacko's that would commit horrible acts if they lived in a country in which they could not use the political process to further their agenda. The KKK comes to mind. . . .

re: #115 JCM

A bus full of Baptist on the way to a revival crashes and all are killed.
The lot of them troop up to St. Peter and demand entry. "Sorry" says Peter but "the Methodists were right you have to go to hell."

Two weeks later Satan calls up God complaining about the Baptists.
"What's the problem" asks God.
Satan replies, "They've been here two weeks are already raised $20,000 for air conditioning!"

"If she ain't gone to a better place, she'll be working on improving it..."

re: #35 ggt

I've been doing some deep thinking about all this lately.

One one side (of the border) we have the Islamawhackos that want to create a world Muslim theocracy. One the other side, we have Christianwhackos wanting to create a Christian theocracy.

Now, both of the whackogroups are a very small in number, but have done their propagana homework and are willing to sacrifice a lot of blood, sweat and tears to accomplish their goal.

The goals are deceivingly the same for both.

+control of women
+control of moral behavior
+control of ___
+control of ___
+control of ___

You get the picture. So, in essence, these whackos want control. They do not believe in dignity of the individual. They do not believe that the concept of Free Will is valid.

I do not believe they are misguided, I believe they are evil.

I think the whackos ability to identify themselves with mainstream religious people is their most dangerous attribute.

Again (and I just want to get back to my brandy), There is little to no comparison. I am not advocating a christian theocracy, but the odds of surviving are a lot better.

re: #108 hazzyday

LOL! Too true, born and raised Baptist.

re: #102 Dan G.

I don't doubt what you say, but I haven't had any run-ins with anyone who's espoused THAT opinion (fortunately). Those that I talk to typically bring up the political ideas/exchanges between Jefferson/Adams/etc... NOT anything about undoing emancipation.

It isn't a typically spoken fear. But, I think it is what drives a lot of useful idiots to work for women/minority/whatever groups. Most of whom have never read Jefferson or Adams.

Recently I've also recalled some of my interactions with some YECers when I was in the Air Force. Mind you, this was prior to 9/11, but the were DROOLING over some of the stories of public punishment in Saudi Arabia. Sort of like, "HEY, we need that stuff HERE!"

re: #112 n2sooners

Those Christians need to learn to just sit down and shut up. Who the hell do they think they are to challenge scientific consensus anyway?

They're not just trying to challenge science, they're trying to reinterpret it in their own image.

re: #105 Sharmuta

Which is exactly why the DI is pushing hard in Texas right now.

Right.
The Texas State Board of Education has been a problem for many years. I had to battle those yahoos back in the 1970's because one of the textbooks I wrote had a photograph of a marble statue. The statue depicted a semi-nude woman. This was an art book no less!

re: #71 gman

I mentioned above I'm beginning to think a 3rd party option might be the only way out of this mess. The GOP panders too much to their far right constituency.

Okay, sorry. I saw your comment, but I lost track of who said it.

re: #128 MJ

Well, you can't have the boys masturbating in class, now can you? ;)
/

One of the other interesting tidbits in Monkey Girl is that while researching biology text books for the Dover schools, Bill Buckingham of the Dover school board went to three private religious schools to find out what they used for biology books. Two of the schools used the "Dragonfly book" which was written by Ken Miller. That was the exact book the science teachers had requested, but Buckingham thought was "laced with Darwinism". The third school used a book that covered evolution even more than the "Dragonfly book".

I'm sure that must have been quite a shock to the creationist school board member to discover three religious schools "teaching atheism". It actually should have been a clue that evolution and religion are not in conflict except in the minds of those who insist upon it.

re: #128 MJ

Right.
The Texas State Board of Education has been a problem for many years. I had to battle those yahoos back in the 1970's because one of the textbooks I wrote had a photograph of a marble statue. The statue depicted a semi-nude woman. This was an art book no less!

Pornographer!
/

What do they do with Michelangelo's David?

re: #126 Dan G.

Recently I've also recalled some of my interactions with some YECers when I was in the Air Force. Mind you, this was prior to 9/11, but the were DROOLING over some of the stories of public punishment in Saudi Arabia. Sort of like, "HEY, we need that stuff HERE!"

Scary.

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Bingo! While they may despise Darwin and evolutionary biology, their real target is the Age of Enlightenment.

re: #58 gman

When your state party platform advocates the teaching of ID, you're blatantly asking for trouble.

I absolutely agree. I guess my point was that the GOP is not clinging to, but being taken over by...

There's another S.F. Jew here? Wow, we almost have a minyan!

re: #123 Unakite

Again (and I just want to get back to my brandy), There is little to no comparison. I am not advocating a christian theocracy, but the odds of surviving are a lot better.

Christian theocracies have not been nice places, where they occurred. In our own time and place we have the enormous advantage of a long-stable high-functioning secular state, which nonetheless needs constant care and attention.

Someday, I hope, Islam will have the same, and then perhaps we'll see a cultural and theological flowering, rather than violence and stunted growth.

re: #134 MrPaulRevere

Close. Their target is the reasoning human mind, which was what caused the Enlightenment.

re: #112 n2sooners

Those Christians need to learn to just sit down and shut up. Who the hell do they think they are to challenge scientific consensus anyway?

It's "consensus" because evolution is supported by mountains of empirical evidence. If the creationists want to start showing empirical evidence that disproves evolution, they're welcome to do so.

re: #78 alexknyc

And a trial where he'll try to take as many Illinois politicians down with him as he can.

G*d, I hope so. wouldn't that be entertaining?

OT:
Cannot keep my eyes open! We were in Brooklyn for most of the day, and saw our daughter, son in law, and the one who owns all of us, the 2 year old grandson! He asked where my youngest son, his favorite uncle was, and we told him he was at work. He then asked if he was coming for dinner...daughter called, and he said he would love to. The small person was so excited! When son called to say he was on his way, little guy heard his Mummy on her phone, and came into the room I was in, and picked up the receiver on the FAX, and started talking to uncle...I had the hardest time keeping a straight face! He didn't realize that he was talking to himself!

He also did the Shabbat blessings with his Mummy and me when we did the blessing on the candles, and then before we ate, the wine and the challas. He actually knows them almost perfectly. The challah roll he bakes every Friday in his Gan (pre-school) was eaten by said grandson in the car, on the way home from Gan..hilarious! Daughter took him to their local bakery, and he asked why she was buying the 2 challas, and was told that he already ate one! Daughter said he grinned!

When my son got there, he got a welcome that had him grinning! It was so much fun to watch the interaction..uncle got to watch a video with him, and then, when it was time to go to sleep, after he tried every trick in the book, he was asked which one he wanted to read to him...Mummy, Daddy,Nana, Grampa, or Uncle...he jumped onto his Uncle, and kissed him, and said 'Uncle!'...the look on my son's face was priceless.

I am going to sleep...and this was one of the most wonderful Shabbat dinners I can remember. It was a time to leave the worries, problems, fear of the future, name it, and concentrate what matters so much: family.

We dropped our son off on the way home, and he was still grinning from ear to ear!

G'nite, all. May you all have something in your lives just like this, as we go through these difficult, scary times, with a horse's ass in the White House, with his clones in the Congress. it's a wonder the Demonrats don't wear a uniform.

Sweet dreams!

re: #132 JCM

Pornographer!
/

What do they do with Michelangelo's David?

One of my coworkers had a small replica of the statue in her childhood home. Her abuelita, who disapproved of David's nudity, knitted him a little kilt.

re: #138 Dan G.

Close. Their target is the reasoning human mind, which was what caused the Enlightenment.

Which is very odd loop with the role the Reformation had to plan in all of that.

re: #139 Sharmuta

It's "consensus" because evolution is supported by mountains of empirical evidence. If the creationists want to start showing empirical evidence that disproves evolution, they're welcome to do so.

Please Sharm, they would have to have a grasp of basic science to do that! They seem to think that rhetoric as if it were hard science.

:0

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my coworkers had a small replica of the statue in her childhood home. Her abuelita, who disapproved of David's nudity, knitted him a little kilt.

ROFL!

re: #136 SFGoth

There's another S.F. Jew here? Wow, we almost have a minyan!

re: #141 NY Nana

Wonderful! I'm so glad you had a great day.

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there any thing new in the death of Dr. Daniel J. Kliman?

re: #144 ggt

Please Sharm, they would have to have a grasp of basic science to do that! They seem to think that rhetoric as if it were hard science.

We had a lawyer earlier basically admit that. A reasoned argument trumps scientific data. Unreal.

re: #132 JCM

Pornographer!
/

What do they do with Michelangelo's David?

That one has been a "problem" for them for years.
Recall that John Ashcroft covered Lady Justice's marbled breast in the Great Hall of the Justice Department when he was there...

re: #136 SFGoth

There's another S.F. Jew here? Wow, we almost have a minyan!

Sorry about the above, I was trying to do a secret handshake, but the computer thought it was an HTML tag. Hey! Secret handshake!

This is another thing I don't get. The in the United States, secularism has allowed christianity to flourish since the definition of what a christian "is" remains ambiguous (to the law anyway). Where christian theocracies exist, someone tries to hold a very precise definition of christianity and those who are out of bounds on any issue didn't get partial credit; they got pain, banishment, or death. Don't these fundies get it? A secular government is GOOD FOR THEM TOO!

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my coworkers had a small replica of the statue in her childhood home. Her abuelita, who disapproved of David's nudity, knitted him a little kilt.

That brings to mind This Song.

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry about the above, I was trying to do a secret handshake, but the computer thought it was an HTML tag. Hey! Secret handshake!

You're obviously not a Jew b/c we don't have secret handshakes, we have money transfers.

re: #150 MJ

Ashcroft did an outstanding job under difficult circumstances. That episode was kinda silly however, I agree.

re: #152 Dan G.

So you don't see any attack on Christianity or Judaism by the Left in America?

re: #148 JCM

Is there any thing new in the death of Dr. Daniel J. Kliman?

Not that I know about. Last I heard, SFPD had opened an investigation that included officers from Hate Crimes, but they appear to believe it was probably an accidental death. If anything else has been released, I haven't heard about it.

A tragedy, no matter what happened. A terrible loss.

re: #152 Dan G.

This is another thing I don't get. The in the United States, secularism has allowed christianity to flourish since the definition of what a christian "is" remains ambiguous (to the law anyway). Where christian theocracies exist, someone tries to hold a very precise definition of christianity and those who are out of bounds on any issue didn't get partial credit; they got pain, banishment, or death. Don't these fundies get it? A secular government is GOOD FOR THEM TOO!

The flip side of what a lot folks who try to push legislation in the name of Christianity is they don't see how it can turn around and bite them.

Take getting the Biblical Creation story taught in class. Every other religion will then have a claim to get their equal time. Or how restriction they want could be turned against them.

re: #152 Dan G.

A great point and one that should be repeated. The first amendment allowed them to flourish and they have no respect for it. Expecting reason and introspection from that crowd is a fools game however.

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

Not that I know about. Last I heard, SFPD had opened an investigation that included officers from Hate Crimes, but they appear to believe it was probably an accidental death. If anything else has been released, I haven't heard about it.

A tragedy, no matter what happened. A terrible loss.

Thanks, a loss and tragedy no doubt, and such a strange story.

re: #156 ornery elephant

Physically? No. Didn't your mom ever tell you, "sticks and stones might break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

And to the extent that the left attacks Individual Rights, then they attack everyone equally.

re: #154 SFGoth

You're obviously not a Jew b/c we don't have secret handshakes, we have money transfers.

Shhh! Anyway, I'm in the section that controls the media. I put subliminal messages in the recipes in Better Homes and Gardens.

re: #155 MrPaulRevere

Ashcroft did an outstanding job under difficult circumstances. That episode was kinda silly however, I agree.

No argument from me. He was a fine AG.

re: #158 JCM

I think someone posted a link to Cracked Magazine with the Japanese creation story... find it and read it if you dare. ;)

Oh, I just gotta say, if there are any L.A. (not LA) Lizards here, what the fuck is wrong with the land use/landlord lawyers down there? They're fucking stupid. I swear to god. I've dealt with a few. What gets me is that they fuck up a case down there, it gets appealed, the friggin' 2nd District Court of Appeal (L.A.) makes horrible, lefty law, and we here in San Francisco have to take it up the ass because published opinions of the Court of Appeal are applicable statewide. I swear, even the lefties (for the most part) on the 1st District up here aren't as bad -- plus we seem to have a lot of smart land use/landlord lawyers. Man, it steams me up to no end. I told my boss today that we should take an ad out in the Times: "Hey landlords, please hire competent lawyers on important issues. Signed, San Francisco attorneys" [rant off]

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

Not that I know about. Last I heard, SFPD had opened an investigation that included officers from Hate Crimes, but they appear to believe it was probably an accidental death. If anything else has been released, I haven't heard about it.

A tragedy, no matter what happened. A terrible loss.

Yeah, it kinda dropped off the radar screen.

re: #159 MrPaulRevere

I definitely don't expect that. But there are some christians who put their lots in with these monsters; its them that I would try to dissuade.

re: #161 Dan G.

Physically? No. Didn't your mom ever tell you, "sticks and stones might break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

And to the extent that the left attacks Individual Rights, then they attack everyone equally.

Well, i didn't mean physically but i'm sure you are smart enough to know that. As for my right to worship in my own way in this country, yes, I would say that the Left is adamant in removing that.

re: #135 Unakite

I absolutely agree. I guess my point was that the GOP is not clinging to, but being taken over by...

It's an interesting topic. The far right has more control in certain states than others. The Left spins what is going on in those states to the exception of other states. While party platforms at the state level have some flexibility as to their stated positions, the national GOP needs to get control of this situation.

re: #168 ornery elephant

But the context of my post that you replied to was expressly that. "...pain, banishment (deportation in current terms), or death".

re: #159 MrPaulRevere

A great point and one that should be repeated. The first amendment allowed them to flourish and they have no respect for it. Expecting reason and introspection from that crowd is a fools game however.

It another failing of our education system that civics and history are not properly taught- that the kids are not learning the reasoning behind the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses, nor do they understand the history of europe that brought about those very reasons for those clauses.

re: #168 ornery elephant

Well, i didn't mean physically but i'm sure you are smart enough to know that. As for my right to worship in my own way in this country, yes, I would say that the Left is adamant in removing that.

Really? Leftists are blocking you from entering the church of your choice?

re: #171 Sharmuta

How Euro-centric of you, Sharm!

/big time

re: #166 SFGoth

Zombie has a post on his blog about Dan Kliman. Its a very sad and mysterious story: R.I.P. Dan Kliman [Link: www.zombietime.com...]

re: #164 Dan G.

I think someone posted a link to Cracked Magazine with the Japanese creation story... find it and read it if you dare. ;)

HAHAHA! Turn that into a high school class!

re: #170 Dan G.

Perhaps some confusion ...I was referring more to the part of your comment regarding "secularism"

re: #172 Sharmuta

Really? Leftists are blocking you from entering the church of your choice?

Are you really interested in my own personal experience or was that a rhetorical question?

(oh my! it's catching!)

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Christian theocracies have not been nice places, where they occurred. In our own time and place we have the enormous advantage of a long-stable high-functioning secular state, which nonetheless needs constant care and attention.

Someday, I hope, Islam will have the same, and then perhaps we'll see a cultural and theological flowering, rather than violence and stunted growth.

Well stated and I think most people here have the same hopes for Islam. Christianity has certainly had it's dark periods, but I think the difference is Christianity and western civilization has always striven to do better, which has led to the advantages that you mentioned. Islam is still in the dark ages and the fundamentalists want to keep it there. It could be a while before we see the flowering of Islam.

re: #176 ornery elephant

...and what's the problem with a government that has no business with religion? This does NOT mean that a person's religion would preclude that individual from holding a government post.

re: #167 Dan G.

Yes by all means continue to reach out to Christians who have a decent respect for secular government. There are many out there who find this fixation on interjecting creationism into public schools a creepy assault on the Constitution. I'm one of them.

re: #177 ornery elephant

By all means- share your story and then call the Thomas More Law Center.

re: #180 MrPaulRevere

PIMF: 'many Christians'

re: #152 Dan G.

This is another thing I don't get. The in the United States, secularism has allowed christianity to flourish since the definition of what a christian "is" remains ambiguous (to the law anyway). Where christian theocracies exist, someone tries to hold a very precise definition of christianity and those who are out of bounds on any issue didn't get partial credit; they got pain, banishment, or death. Don't these fundies get it? A secular government is GOOD FOR THEM TOO!

Oh,, but DanG, they are destined to rule!

//

re: #154 SFGoth

You're obviously not a Jew b/c we don't have secret handshakes, we have money transfers.

LOL

re: #180 MrPaulRevere

I will. I believe a lot of christians have been speaking in chorus with these anti-Constitution types due to them not realizing who they were in bed with. The far right shills disseminate stories that whip up a sense of victimization and then extend their hands and say "join us". The unsuspecting, otherwise freedom loving, christian accepts and has just made a deal with the proverbial devil.

re: #171 Sharmuta

It another failing of our education system that civics and history are not properly taught- that the kids are not learning the reasoning behind the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses, nor do they understand the history of europe that brought about those very reasons for those clauses.

Those be "dead white man" subjects. Can't teach those!

Never mind that they were part of the education received by Frederick Douglas and Booker T Washingon, et al.

re: #183 ggt

You know there's a Bush video clip floating around there (someone showed me at work, it was an attachment on their email) where he's on camera saying something like, "This would be easier if this were a dictatorship... well, and... if I was the dictator." I think he said it jokingly, but it sure didn't help his case with those in the middle-left of the political spectrum. My acquaintance was sold on the left's argument after that.

re: #181 Sharmuta

By all means- share your story and then call the Thomas More Law Center.

I think the Thomas Moore Law Center has been closed and the ACLU has taken over the building to handle all complaints about references to " G_d" in American society

re: #188 ornery elephant

They're not closed, and we're still waiting to hear how you've been prevented from practicing your religion.

re: #158 JCM

The flip side of what a lot folks who try to push legislation in the name of Christianity is they don't see how it can turn around and bite them.

Take getting the Biblical Creation story taught in class. Every other religion will then have a claim to get their equal time. Or how restriction they want could be turned against them.

OK, old but still funny:

I was so excited when I dropped little Tommy off on the first day of school. We finally won! After all that wrestling with the school board, our children will have prayer in their classrooms this year!

Of course, some people said that this would mean favoring one religion over another, or forcing children to pray, but we convinced everyone that was just silly! Each teacher will lead prayer time exactly as he or she chooses, and if children don't want to pray, they can go and stand in the hall until it's over. There's no problem!

When Tommy got home, I asked him, "How was school? Do you like your teacher." "Yep," he said, "Miss O'Brien is really nice."

"How was prayer time?"

"Uh, OK."

"Did anyone go out in the hall?"

"Yeah, a couple of kids did. Miss O'Brien taught us to do this, look!" Any my little Tommy made the sign of the cross.

So I went to the principal, and I told him that while I have nothing at all against Catholics, I would rather that Tommy be in a different class. He was very understanding, and said Tommy could be in Mrs. Anderson's room.

When Tommy got home from school, I asked him how things went.

"Cool," he said. "Mrs. Anderson has a turtle in her room."

"How was prayer time?"

"Fine."

At dinner, I asked him to say grace, thinking that he could show us what he'd learned in school. He sat on the floor, and began to hum.

So I told the principal the next day, that Lord knows I have nothing against Transcendental Meditationists, but that I wanted Tommy to have a grounding in a more, well, traditional kind of religion. The principal was very nice about it, and after a few phone calls he said that Tommy could move to Mr. Nakamura's class.

So the next day, I asked Tommy, "how was school?"

"Pretty nifty. Mr. Nakamura taught everyone to kick a football, and he has fun math drills. But you're not gonna like his prayer time either, Mom."

"Why not?"

"Well, we all sat on the floor, and Ashley was the incense monitor, and we had to pray to some guy called Lord Buddha."

Anyway, when I told the principal that I have nothing against Buddhists at all, but that I really wanted Tommy to be with a teacher from an American, Christian background, he looked tired, but he finally said that Tommy could be in Miss Edwards' class.

"How was school, Tommy?"

"Great. Miss Edwards gave me a gold star on my current event. And you'll like her prayer time, Mom. She says 'in Jesus' name, amen,' just like you and Dad do. And she taught us a scripture verse!"

Well, I just glowed. "Do you remember the verse, Tommy?" He did, and he recited it for me.

"Wow, Tommy," I said, after a moment. "I don't recognize that verse. What book does it come from?"

"Uh, Second Nephi."

"Second Nephi? What part of the Bible is Second Nephi in?"

"It's in the Book of Mormon. Can I go and do homework with Billy?"

So anyway, I have told Tommy that he is absolutely to go outside and stand in the hall during prayer time every day until the school board meets again, and we can get this sorted out. It may take me the rest of the school year, but I am determined to get prayer out of the schools, and back into our homes where it belongs.

re: #187 Dan G.

You know there's a Bush video clip floating around there (someone showed me at work, it was an attachment on their email) where he's on camera saying something like, "This would be easier if this were a dictatorship... well, and... if I was the dictator." I think he said it jokingly, but it sure didn't help his case with those in the middle-left of the political spectrum. My acquaintance was sold on the left's argument after that.

Republicans don't have any humor; ergo, he must have been serious.

/

re: #168 ornery elephant

Well, i didn't mean physically but i'm sure you are smart enough to know that. As for my right to worship in my own way in this country, yes, I would say that the Left is adamant in removing that.

How so?

Quite up and running.

re: #189 Sharmuta

They're not closed, and we're still waiting to hear how you've been prevented from practicing your religion.

"We're" ? You got a party going on over there? LOL

re: #194 ornery elephant

If you've been prevented from exercising your Constitutional rights, I'm sure I'm not the only Lizard who would like to hear about it. And why are you still stalling? Get on with this story you said you had.

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

How so?

Sorry, others have asked. I was so busy typing up my old joke...

re: #191 ggt

Well, that... plus it WAS an inside job right!? Dictator... inside job... Reichstag... AHHH! ITS ALL TRUE
/ ;)

re: #195 Sharmuta

The elephant has partaken in some of the victimization kool-aid.

re: #197 Dan G.

Well, that... plus it WAS an inside job right!? Dictator... inside job... Reichstag... AHHH! ITS ALL TRUE
/ ;)

ahhh!

weet dreams all!

re: #198 Dan G.

The elephant has partaken in some of the victimization kool-aid.

LOL Dan, how could I ever top that! Wow. That sure put me in my place! I'm in awe, dude.

re: #149 Sharmuta

We had a lawyer earlier basically admit that. A reasoned argument trumps scientific data. Unreal.

He couldn't seem to wrap his mind around the idea that even if the logic is flawless, if the premises are screwed, the conclusion will be, too.

re: #201 ornery elephant

Where's this story you mentioned of your civil rights being violated?

It must have blown your mind, since you cannot seem to formulate a way to explain how secularism is preventing you from practicing your religion (and the red herrings you've used on sharm, and now me, don't count). Either explain, or be ridiculed for the liar that you are.

re: #202 Salamantis

GIGO

My disgust for Perry has nothing to do with "intelligent" design, but keep in mind he is not popular in Texas. He was elected last time with about 38% of the vote as Scott McClellan's mom and joke candidate Kooky Friedman helped to expose what Perry's true level of support is.

re: #185 Dan G.

I will. I believe a lot of christians have been speaking in chorus with these anti-Constitution types due to them not realizing who they were in bed with. The far right shills disseminate stories that whip up a sense of victimization and then extend their hands and say "join us". The unsuspecting, otherwise freedom loving, christian accepts and has just made a deal with the proverbial devil.

It's what cults all over do: a combination of demonizing all but themselves, and love-bombing their marks.

re: #207 Salamantis

Never heard it put that way... but it communicates the essence VERY well... love-bombing... ;)

re: #204 Dan G.

It must have blown your mind, since you cannot seem to formulate a way to explain how secularism is preventing you from practicing your religion (and the red herrings you've used on sharm, and now me, don't count). Either explain, or be ridiculed for the liar that you are.

who's the poor guy you just called a liar in this comment? bwahahaha

One thing nobody's commented on: Why the devil would anyone appoint a dentist to be head of a state's school system?

It's like putting an electrician in charge of the medical board.

It’s one of the GOP’s biggest problems, and it isn’t only happening in Texas. The religious far right is intent on dragging the Republican Party back into the Dark Ages.

I wish I could be more eloquent, but all I can add is "Duh!" I don't know why this would surprise anyone.

re: #209 ornery elephant

And yet your tale of your Constitutional rights being violated goes untold. It's very telling.

re: #212 Sharmuta

And yet your tale of your Constitutional rights being violated goes untold. It's very telling.

I'm being denied my more-than-equal rights!

/

re: #209 ornery elephant

... still waiting for an answer. Are you going to continue to bear false witness about your rights to practice the religion of your choosing being violated? Dishonest. tsk tsk.

re: #210 Cato the Elder

In a just world that would have 35 updings!

re: #210 Cato the Elder

One thing nobody's commented on: Why the devil would anyone appoint a dentist to be head of a state's school system?

It's like putting an electrician in charge of the medical board.

How big of a Perry campaign contributor is this dentist? That's a question that needs to be asked about every Perry act.

*crickets*

re: #216 RoughRider

How big of a Perry campaign contributor is this dentist? That's a question that needs to be asked about every Perry act.

That would be interesting to know.

One thing's for sure: If he were a good dentist, he would know that the existence of canine teeth in humans is another bit of evidence for evolution.

Shameful O.Elephant... shameful.

This article by Roger Scruton from City Journal in 1996 is a must read...

Money Shots:

"...there is something despondent in the search for a religious solution to the problems of secular society. All too often, the search is conducted in a spirit of despair by people who are as infected by the surrounding nihilism as those whose behavior they wish to rectify."

"Those who call for a religious revival are not, as a rule, galvanized by images of the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the burning of heretics. The only religious revival reshaping modern society—Islamic fundamentalism—has about as much appeal for a Western conservative as a visit from Ghengis Khan."

"Those who hope to safeguard “natural piety” through a return to religious faith jeopardize the thing they treasure. For they make piety as irrational as the beliefs to which they attach it. But piety is not irrational at all. It is the voice that tells us that the goods of society are inherited and could never be rediscovered by the generation that foolishly rejects them. The true conservative should be prepared to acknowledge that his audience lives in modern times. Religious belief is a bonus that we cannot assume. But piety is a social necessity; it speaks of duties that lie above and beyond our desires and contracts. If people cease to recognize such duties, society will crumble into “the dust and powder of individuality,” as Burke described it.

Conservatives should therefore be gentle with their unbelieving colleagues. It may be right to hope for a religious revival, but not to work for it. The conservative task in the modern world is to scoff at the scoffers, to ridicule the prejudice against all that Burke promised under the rubric of “prejudice,” and to support the institutions in which piety is born."

I would love to hear what hardcore anti-ID/C people think about this line of thought. For me, it renders them genuinely pitiful, not threatening. I don't understand what the issue arouses so much passion; be it insecurity?

I don't really have a problem with this. You see, I live in a country where Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dohrn and Angela Davis are qualified to be university professors. This stuff is picayune...

re: #210 Cato the Elder

One thing nobody's commented on: Why the devil would anyone appoint a dentist to be head of a state's school system?

It's like putting an electrician in charge of the medical board.

Even more, how do you have a guy who presumably took hard sciences in school before going into dentistry spouting this creationist nonsense?

re: #220 loghueriat

From your link:

Those who hope to safeguard “natural piety” through a return to religious faith jeopardize the thing they treasure. For they make piety as irrational as the beliefs to which they attach it.

I couldn't think of a better way to describe creationism than this- attaching an irrational thought (a 6000 year old earth) with the notion that it would create a more pious society. In fact- in that article, a fairly good case is laid out for piety without organized religion.

I don't understand what the issue arouses so much passion; be it insecurity?

I'm sure it's difficult to understand why people from various faiths and beliefs are passionate about retaining their American birthrights. It's quite possible it's because they're secure with their piety, and belief system as it stands now and don't appreciate having irrationality foisted on them in violation of the rights our ancestors died to grant and defend for their posterity. As the article noted:

As the Chinese and the Romans acknowledged, piety involves respect for the dead. The pious person is the one who acknowledges the generations that have gone before, who does not trample on their remains or tear down their achievements. It is this respect for the dead that prompts the awe with which we enter sacred places or celebrate sacred times.

So perhaps it is those of us "hardcore anti-ID/C people" that are being more pious in this instance in recognizing the very special rights our forefathers died to create and protect and rejecting the failed notions of theocracy that drove religiously persecuted people to the American shores in the first place.

Thanks for linking that article- I thought it might not have made the point you thought it would make.

re: #221 zigaretten

I don't really have a problem with this. You see, I live in a country where Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dohrn and Angela Davis are qualified to be university professors. This stuff is picayune...

We don't solve the irrationality of leftist indoctrination by injecting pseudo-science into public school classrooms.

Perry also supported eminent domain here in Texas trying to get a large trans texas corridor which would of split our large farms and ranches in half. He has now changed his position after outcries from the people of Texas. Have faith, after all Texas was not a state which fell for the Obama folly.

re: #123 Unakite

Again (and I just want to get back to my brandy), There is little to no comparison. I am not advocating a christian theocracy, but the odds of surviving are a lot better.

The odds are better mostly because there is no potential today for a christian theocracy to gain absolute political control. In the past when this was close to the case, say during the centuries of the inquisition, life could be rather painful for those who badmouthed the clergy or god's anointed leaders.

All religions are based on unprovable hypotheses and should be kept as far away from the government as possible. In a particular a democracy which wishes to guarantee freedom of religion can only truly achieve this if it vigorously assures the freedom from any particular religion or creed.

re: #177 ornery elephant

Are you really interested in my own personal experience or was that a rhetorical question?

(oh my! it's catching!)

Pretending that you've been oppressed when you haven't. Kidding on that you've got this big story where your rights were violated, and then running away when asked to produce it. Tsk tsk.

Democrats are laughing all the way to elected office over Republicans like this.

And the Democrats don't even have to spend any of their time or money on campaign literature telling voters about people like Perry and McLeroy because the Republicans will spend their own time and money "bragging" about it to voters thinking it will actually help them win elections.

Dumbing down the Americans again.
Ah! But this is Texas of course...

re: #223 Sharmuta

I couldn't think of a better way to describe creationism than this- attaching an irrational thought (a 6000 year old earth) with the notion that it would create a more pious society.

What always puzzles me is the associated conviction that people were better and better off in the past, presumably because religion was more prevalent then.

Have not 2000+ years of experimenting shown that it is not as simple as that?

re: #226 Annar

I believe were a republic not a democracy.

re: #229 SoSilent

Yeah dumb Texans. Only state allowed to fly their flag at the same level as the US flag. Hmmm wonder why?

re: #230 Naso Tang

Wonder how the pursuit of pagan gods worked out for habitants before christianity?

re: #231 Scorch

I believe were a republic not a democracy.

re: #229 SoSilent

Yeah dumb Texans. Only state allowed to fly their flag at the same level as the US flag. Hmmm wonder why?

Any state flag can be flown at the same level as the US flag, as long as it is not to the right of the US flag. What you wrote about the texas flag is just an urban legend
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Since you encapsulated that with an ad-hominem about "dumb Texans", what does that make you?

Seems like so much wringing of hands lately over Coulter and McLeroy - I think it is the evolutionists fault really - they want to say that their theories are as plain and obvious as gravity, but that apparently does not wring true with a good proportion of the public. To look at the world and say that it just all happened by chance, a great big accident with no real purpose - its is just unreal?
What the resurgence of creationism and ID has done is give people back some of their self-determination - people can think as they want, and not feel like they have to swallow everything that the evolutionists throw at them (IMO) in the name of 'science'.
When you see 'fauxtography' like pictures of dinosaurs with colored feathers, it becomes pretty easy to point out that there is an agenda that goes beyond what can be clearly known and understood.

re: #232 stretch

Yeah but it's our urban legend.
Having a bad day today stretch?

re: #234 Scorch

Yeah but it's our urban legend.
Having a bad day today stretch?

think what you will - actually a good day - please excuse the typos

Dang your up early today Charles. I thought you Californians slept till noon and partied all night.

This is why Kay Bailey Hutchison is probably going to be the next governor of Texas. I like Rick Perry's fiscal conservatism but am troubled by his close ties to the fundamentalist types.

For those who question the presence of a dentist on a state school board, two points. First, any local school board is made up of dentists, business people, doctors, lawyers, homemakers, etc., so why should a state board of education be different. Second, would you advocate that the state BOE be made up entirely of professional educators who have a large vested interest in the status quo and a reflexive tendency to back the teachers' unions?

re: #237 hopperandadropper

This is why Kay Bailey Hutchison is probably going to be the next governor of Texas. I like Rick Perry's fiscal conservatism but am troubled by his close ties to the fundamentalist types.

For those who question the presence of a dentist on a state school board, two points. First, any local school board is made up of dentists, business people, doctors, lawyers, homemakers, etc., so why should a state board of education be different. Second, would you advocate that the state BOE be made up entirely of professional educators who have a large vested interest in the status quo and a reflexive tendency to back the teachers' unions?

I have no problem with a dentist being on an education board. The problem with McLeroy isn't that he's a dentist -- it's that he's a young earth creationist. It's insane to put a fundamentalist fanatic in charge of the education of children.

And McLeroy isn't the only creationist in that henhouse. He managed to get three more creationists, including two shills for the Discovery Institute, on the advisory board for science standards. It's an appalling situation.

For anyone who hasn't read Don McLeroy's thoughts in detail, here's a link to a speech he made on teaching evolution ond ontelligent design, in 2005.
His opinion about theistic evolution here:

"I’d like to make a quick comment about the option of theistic evolution, and it’s a very poor option. There’s not anybody in our group that’s advocating this. Because Darwinism doesn’t allow God to do anything. Consider natural selection of random mutations. If they’re random mutations, they can’t be God-directed, and if they’re naturally selected, you can’t hav, quote, “God-selecteds.” And so no one in our group represents theistic evolution, and the big tent of intelligent design does not include theistic evolutionists. Because intelligent design is opposed to evolution. Theistic evolutionists embrace it. So, you know, there are some in the Christian camp that just say, “Well, I am a theistic evolutionist.” And there are some bright minds that are that way, but they aren’t part really of the intelligent design group. It just doesn’t fit.

"Darwinism doesn't allow god to do anything."
Wow.
[Link: www.tfn.org...]

PIMF 'and intelligent'

Um, a lot of lizards were still bitterly clinging to the hope that creationists weren't a force among mainstream republicans. Rick Perry is pretty darned mainstream. And yes, this issue absolutely alienates educated voters from the GOP.

This is an embarrassment to me as a Texan. I understand that the fundamentalist have always had some sort of control of the educational direction in Texas.

Without speaking for you Charles, I think your point is that the U.S. vulnerable if we are going to outsource our scientific knowledge to other countries and promoting ID as scientific teaching is going in the wrong direction with regards to that risk.

Maybe I missed it but maybe a clarification needs to be made vis-a-vis participation on this blog. It seems pretty clear to me that taking the position of "pro ID as science" is clearly oppositional to your position but are people who agree with the Creationist/ID/Young Earth ideology welcomed to post here or does their continual advancement of the "anti-scientific theocratic agenda" make it to untenable to count on them as allies against the current "idiotocracy"?

re: #228 Steve Rogers

Democrats are laughing all the way to elected office over Republicans like this.

And the Democrats don't even have to spend any of their time or money on campaign literature telling voters about people like Perry and McLeroy because the Republicans will spend their own time and money "bragging" about it to voters thinking it will actually help them win elections.

ding, ding, ding! winner!

Just to be clear, I think McLeroy is an idiot. I'm a biologist and the whole creationism/ID thing drives me crazy. I believe this one issue alienates many people who might otherwise be political and economic conservatives. I was just making the point that one's profession as a dentist shouldn't be a reason to question one's presence on a school board at any level.

BTW, I have known a number of dentists/physicians who didn't believe in evolution. Without exception they were Christians of a fundamentalist stripe. I've never met anyone who questioned evolutionary theory on purely scientific grounds, without that religious background as a starting point.

re: #243 unclassifiable

This is an embarrassment to me as a Texan. I understand that the fundamentalist have always had some sort of control of the educational direction in Texas.

Without speaking for you Charles, I think your point is that the U.S. vulnerable if we are going to outsource our scientific knowledge to other countries and promoting ID as scientific teaching is going in the wrong direction with regards to that risk.

Maybe I missed it but maybe a clarification needs to be made vis-a-vis participation on this blog. It seems pretty clear to me that taking the position of "pro ID as science" is clearly oppositional to your position but are people who agree with the Creationist/ID/Young Earth ideology welcomed to post here or does their continual advancement of the "anti-scientific theocratic agenda" make it to untenable to count on them as allies against the current "idiotocracy"?

As a Texan (born and trained in Austin), I'm extremely proud of Rick Perry and Don McLeroy. I've met Don on several occasions and have the highest regard for the gentleman.

As I said before, evolutionists need to be more forthcoming with the evidence that they claim to have - when they make referrals (as on this blog) to evolution being as clear and obvious as gravity, then it becomes even more obvious that the theory is a house of cards.

re: #243 unclassifiable

This is an embarrassment to me as a Texan. I understand that the fundamentalist have always had some sort of control of the educational direction in Texas.

Without speaking for you Charles, I think your point is that the U.S. vulnerable if we are going to outsource our scientific knowledge to other countries and promoting ID as scientific teaching is going in the wrong direction with regards to that risk.

Maybe I missed it but maybe a clarification needs to be made vis-a-vis participation on this blog. It seems pretty clear to me that taking the position of "pro ID as science" is clearly oppositional to your position but are people who agree with the Creationist/ID/Young Earth ideology welcomed to post here or does their continual advancement of the "anti-scientific theocratic agenda" make it to untenable to count on them as allies against the current "idiotocracy"?

Creationists are welcome to post at LGF - but not when they melt down and start spewing insults. This is how lots of them end up losing their accounts - because when backed into a corner with logic, facts, and scientific evidence, many of them can't handle it and react with angry, hateful comments. "I'll pray for you as you burn in hell." That kind of stuff.

The ones who are able to manage their anger may not lose their accounts, but they're often extremely deceptive, posting the same debunked arguments over and over; they'll refuse to acknowledge rebuttals, and just move on to the next talking point on their list. Many of these will also post scientific-sounding quotes and arguments, but when you see this it's a good idea to Google a key phrase from their posts -- because 90%+ of the time, it's lifted verbatim from a site like Answers in Genesis or Creation Science Ministries or one of the other fanatical creationism sites.

Are they untenable as "allies?" If a person has creationist beliefs but doesn't want to force them on other people's children, I'd say they can certainly be allies. But unfortunately, it's in the nature of creationists to believe that they have the only true wisdom, and it's pretty rare to find one who honestly doesn't believe that everyone should toe their literalist line. And the problem is that they often lie about their intents and purposes - claim not to want to teach creationism in schools, for example, when they really do. Or claim that they're not creationists at all, while posting one creationist talking point after another.

I'm less concerned with "allies" than I am with honest debate.

re: #233 stretch

I think it is the evolutionists fault really - they want to say that their theories are as plain and obvious as gravity

I don't believe in gravity.

and the evolutionist melt downs? what of them? The vitirol and profanity has oft been spewed in my direction by more than a handful of the members here. I'm only pointing out that there is strong bias here, and certainly not an honest debate.

re: #245 hopperandadropper

Just to be clear, I think McLeroy is an idiot. I'm a biologist and the whole creationism/ID thing drives me crazy. I believe this one issue alienates many people who might otherwise be political and economic conservatives.

Yes, it absolutely does alienate many people.

BTW, I have known a number of dentists/physicians who didn't believe in evolution. Without exception they were Christians of a fundamentalist stripe. I've never met anyone who questioned evolutionary theory on purely scientific grounds, without that religious background as a starting point.

Again, yes ... the truth about creationism and "intelligent design" is that it's a purely religious agenda.

re: #249 stretch

Do you agree with what Mcleroy says about theistic evoution?

"Consider natural selection of random mutations. If they’re random mutations, they can’t be God-directed, and if they’re naturally selected, you can’t have, quote, “God-selecteds.”

[Link: www.tfn.org...]

re: #246 stretch

Stretch,

Your argument amounts to saying that you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible because this evolution stuff is just too hard.

Gravity is not so obvious as you may think. Maybe you could take up some, history, math, and physics and learn about Newton and Einstein to see it wasn't that easy to formulate nor grasp.

But I trust you will continue on the true path.

re: #249 stretch

and the evolutionist melt downs? what of them? The vitirol and profanity has oft been spewed in my direction by more than a handful of the members here. I'm only pointing out that there is strong bias here, and certainly not an honest debate.

A strong bias? Yep. I'm strongly biased in favor of reality, and against fundamentalist fanatics who promote pseudo-science.

I haven't seen any "evolutionist" (an offensive and stupid label, by the way) melt down in anything like the way the creationists do. Not even close. If you want to claim your martyrhood points, show me a comment that you think is an "evolutionist meltdown."