More Stealth Creationist Bills in Five More States, As the DI Mask Slips in Virginia

Science • Views: 5,065

The deceptive “academic freedom” bills inspired and sponsored by the creationists at the Discovery Institute are multiplying out of control. In addition to the bills currently pending or already passed in Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Florida, creationists are also pushing very similar legislation in Oklahoma, New Mexico, Michigan, Missouri, and South Carolina.

Senate Bill 433, introduced in the New Mexico Senate on February 2, 2009, and referred to the Senate Education Committee, is the third antievolution bill to be introduced in a state legislature in 2009. If enacted, the bill would require schools to allow teachers to inform students “about relevant scientific information regarding either the scientific strengths or scientific weaknesses pertaining to biological evolution or chemical evolution,” protecting teachers who choose to do so from “reassignment, termination, discipline or other discrimination for doing so.”

The phrase “academic freedom” is not present in the bill, but it is clearly in the mold of the recent spate of antievolution “academic freedom” bills. As NCSE’s Glenn Branch and Eugenie C. Scott recently wrote in Scientific American, “’Academic freedom’ was the creationist catchphrase of choice in 2008: the Louisiana Science Education Act was in fact born as the Louisiana Academic Freedom Act, and bills invoking the idea were introduced in Alabama, Florida, Michigan, Missouri and South Carolina.” Oklahoma, with its Senate Bill 320, joined the list in 2009.

And for the anniversary of the birthday of Charles Darwin this February 12th, the Discovery Institute is also sponsoring Academic Freedom Day on college campuses. In a typical Orwellian passive-aggressive inversion of reality, they call this “honoring Charles Darwin.”

Discovery Institute “fellows” insist that their “intelligent design” agenda is different and distinct from creationism. This is necessary in order to promote these “academic freedom” bills, because the courts have repeatedly ruled against creationism in schools; hence the pretense.

But someone forgot to send that memo to Liberty Baptist University in Virginia, where they’re featuring two Disco Institute shills—Michael Behe and Paul Nelson—in events explicitly promoting “the Biblical view of creationism.”

As the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin’s birthday — Feb. 12 — draws near, Liberty University will be hosting several events to counter this and to promote the biblical view of creationism. Mat Staver, dean of Liberty University School of Law, and LU’s Center for Creation Studies, directed by Dr. David DeWitt, have helped to coordinate the events. The events have been designed to explore the different aspects of evolution and point out the theory’s significant problems.

The first event is Liberty University School of Law’s 2009 Symposium, “Intelligent Design and Public School,” scheduled for today. The program from 1 to 6 p.m. in the Supreme Courtroom at the law school is free and features nationally-recognized legal scholars. The symposium concludes with biochemist and author of “Darwin’s Black Box,” Dr. Michael Behe, who will deliver the keynote address at Pate Chapel. Dr. Behe will be critiquing Darwin’s “Origin of Species.”

The law school will also be showing films on creation in the Supreme Courtroom. The movie “Expelled” will be shown in the Supreme Courtoom on Feb. 20. The film “Unlocking the Mysteries of Life” will be shown on Feb. 27. All the films will begin at 7 p.m.

A lecture, “Whatever Happened to Darwin’s Tree of Life?,” takes place at 7 p.m. Feb. 12 in DeMoss Hall 1113. The event will feature Dr. Paul Nelson, of the Discovery Institute, who will take a deeper look at genetics and evidence in DNA data disproving Darwin’s evolutionary theory that all life comes from a common ancestor.

And it gets even better, because as part of the same anti-evolution extravaganza, they’re also promoting young earth creationist Ken Ham from “Answers in Genesis:”

Thomas Road Baptist Church is also offering a special event this month. The Answers for Darwin Conference, Feb. 15-17, featuring Ken Ham, who founded the apologetics ministry Answers in Genesis.

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555 comments
1 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:42:27pm
2 itellu3times  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:42:50pm

They want freedom to be ignorant.

The good news is, they already have the freedom. Obviously.

3 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:43:00pm

Well we are past the thin edge of the wedge.

We are into the thicker parts.

4 nikis-knight  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:49:14pm

There is no biblical view of creationism; the Bible address who & why, not how & when.

And one would really think Behe might go after something written in the last century maybe?

5 Bloodnok  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:49:42pm

So, does anyone out there still think this isn't an issue?

6 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:50:33pm

I think I said this before, but I wonder what happened to those commenters who said Louisiana was an isolated incident and wouldn't spread elsewhere... I should go back to that very first thread about this bill and name names... but I'm too lazy...

7 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:53:09pm

The Bible was never meant to be a science textbook. If it was, you'd see chapters on superstring theory and quantum mechanics. When will these "Christians" understand that God never intended his Word to be used as science and especially not dishonest science. "Lying for Jesus" really pisses me off and I'm a Christian.

8 Cathypop  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:54:33pm

I have a 15 year old grandson that would love to have a teacher try to teach him "intelligent design". He was born a conservative and God help the teacher that says or does something stupid in front of him. He enjoys debate.

9 kay1212  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:54:45pm

Oh great! America is going religious extremist. That ought to help our credibility in fighting religious extremists around the world.

We are rushing down the road to ruin.

10 USBeast  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:54:52pm

I do wish I could get a patent on hooey. I'd be rich before I woke up tomorrow.

11 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:54:57pm

Crazies to the left of me, nutbars to the right.

12 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:55:13pm

re: #2 itellu3times

They want freedom to be ignorant.

The good news is, they already have the freedom. Obviously.

The worse news is they want all of us to be ignorant and are using their freedom to try and make it happen.

13 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:58:22pm

The people who support these pieces of legislation because they think (but don't admit) that it's somehow helping support their religious views are going to be surprised and upset when CAIR takes advantage of the opening, and there will be nothing they can do about it.

14 HelloDare  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:58:50pm

Thought experiment:

There's a 180-foot tall sculpture of Charles Darwin in a sandstone cliff.
Would creationists blow it up?

15 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:59:49pm

re: #14 HelloDare

Thought experiment:

There's a 180-foot tall sculpture of Charles Darwin in a sandstone cliff.
Would creationists blow it up?

Creationists of what religion?

16 zey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:01:18pm

MICHIGAN?

17 USBeast  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:01:21pm

re: #14 HelloDare

Thought experiment:

There's a 180-foot tall sculpture of Charles Darwin in a sandstone cliff.
Would creationists blow it up?

Christian creationists, probably not. Muslim creationists, in a heartbeat.

18 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:01:25pm

"Academic Freedom", "Intelligent Design"...a pile of refuse by any other name would reek as nasty.

19 tradewind  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:01:34pm

Speaking of bringing teh stealth... I don't wanna watch Obama at 7.. I want House!

20 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:02:31pm

re: #19 tradewind

Speaking of bringing teh stealth... I don't wanna watch Obama at 7.. I want House!

is that 7 eastern?...fuck House

21 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:02:35pm
22 zey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:02:48pm

all house full episodes are on the fox website along with 24

23 screaming_eagle  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:03:35pm

re: #19 tradewind

Speaking of bringing teh stealth... I don't wanna watch Obama at 7.. I want House!

Do you have a sub-prime mortgage?

24 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:03:57pm

re: #14 HelloDare

Thought experiment:

There's a 180-foot tall sculpture of Charles Darwin in a sandstone cliff.
Would creationists blow it up?

I think that experiment is already taking place in all sorts of Islamic states, including classrooms in semi-Islamic Europe where teachers are too scared to cover topics that annoy their Muslim (creationists) charges.

25 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:04:06pm

re: #17 USBeast

Christian creationists, probably not. Muslim creationists, in a heartbeat.

Maybe the Christian creationists will build their own statue of Charles Darwin, with devil horns and a Hitler mustache, and claim it is a monument that honors him.

26 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:04:23pm

re: #13 jaunte

The people who support these pieces of legislation because they think (but don't admit) that it's somehow helping support their religious views are going to be surprised and upset when CAIR takes advantage of the opening, and there will be nothing they can do about it.

Yeah the worst part about this is that these folks don't understand that if they get ID into the public school curriculum, nothing stops every other religion from getting their bogus pseudo science in there as well. While these folks have no problem with other kids learning about ID, I would bet dollars to donuts they would have a huge problem with say the Muslim or Hindu version. These people couldn't find their ass with two hands and their ass.

27 HelloDare  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:04:41pm

re: #7 Jetpilot1101

The Bible was never meant to be a science textbook. If it was, you'd see chapters on superstring theory and quantum mechanics. When will these "Christians" understand that God never intended his Word to be used as science and especially not dishonest science. "Lying for Jesus" really pisses me off and I'm a Christian.

I was in a conservative discussion group. One minute they railed on James Hansen. The next minute they praised Ben Stein. I spoke up against Stein. Nobody challenged any point I made. They just moved on.

28 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:05:02pm
In a typical Orwellian passive-aggressive inversion of reality, they call this “honoring Charles Darwin.”

Doublespeak is the ability of holding two opposing thought's in one mind at the same time.

29 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:05:06pm

re: #19 tradewind

Speaking of bringing teh stealth... I don't wanna watch Obama at 7.. I want House!

What is this?
The FORTH time in less than one month that the networks allowed him to take over their airwaves.
Pretty soon their going to need a bailout just to make up for the lost ad revenues!

30 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:05:40pm

BO at 8 eastern

31 Cathypop  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:05:48pm

re: #29 mean Gene

What is this?
The FORTH time in less than one month that the networks allowed him to take over their airwaves.
Pretty soon their going to need a bailout just to make up for the lost ad revenues!

Nah! We are just going to have the O station.

32 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:05:49pm

re: #8 Cathypop

I have a 15 year old grandson that would love to have a teacher try to teach him "intelligent design". He was born a conservative and God help the teacher that says or does something stupid in front of him. He enjoys debate.

whoa! you can be born conservative? Is there like a sperm bank for that?
just teasing you Cath..
If anybody tried to teach my kids anything but pure science there would be a real issue at hand..
I was always pissed at the nuns for making us understand all the gas laws in Junior High..They were f'n brutal in science..

33 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #27 HelloDare

I was in a conservative discussion group. One minute they railed on James Hansen. The next minute they praised Ben Stein. I spoke up against Stein. Nobody challenged any point I made. They just moved on.

Now try that same experiment in a conservative Islamic discussion group.

34 screaming_eagle  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:06:30pm

re: #31 Cathypop

Nah! We are just going to have the O station.

We already do. It's GE err NBC

35 tradewind  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:07:19pm

re: #20 albusteve

Not... answering...
(7 central)

36 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:07:47pm

MSNBC already has a 1 hour show called 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue!

37 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:08:05pm

re: #5 Bloodnok

So, does anyone out there still think this isn't an issue?

It's a minor issue, compared with many others.

This movement will make some progress at the local levels, and maybe a couple of states. But it will not change anything at the university level, and probably very little at the high school level, even in those areas affected most.

It won't actually hurt anyone other than those small numbers who really want to believe the actual science on this topic is wrong. It is just some useless information they will receive. No worse than half of what passes for social "sciences" and some physical "sciences" these days. With the phony baloney in those other "sciences", it is no wonder those without knowledge can easily doubt aspects of evolution.

If kids are exposed to it at the local level, it won't change academic standards for testing and university admittance. They will still have to learn the true science if they are to progress academically. Unfortunately, that is not the case with the other fraudulent "sciences" which have infected the university levels and directly affect our lives via phony government policy.

Letting them believe that evolution is not proven will not affect government policy and our lives. There will be no redistribution of wealth or additional taxes if they think dinosaurs lived only 6,000 year ago, or humans magically appeared out of thin air. This is really a distraction from other more important issues that do affect us and our immediate future.

38 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:08:20pm

re: #34 screaming_eagle

We already do. It's GE err NBC

Come on now. Are you suggesting that there is a connection from GE to NBC to positive spin on the stimulus package to the possibility that tons of the stimulus money is going to go to GE and GE contractors?

No, you have to be joking.

:)

39 LGoPs  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:08:20pm

I'll admit that I am ill equipped for these types of debates and generally stay out of them. I have a deep faith, but it is extremely personal to me and I don't foist it on others, except perhaps by trying to set a quiet example.
I have never seen a conflict between science or evolution, and my belief in God.
My entire education was spent in Catholic schools and I never saw a conflict there either. I had science classes - very well taught, and I had theology classes - also well taught. But the two never mixed and there wasn't any attempt that I ever saw, to mix them.
Seems to me that the people who set up and ran that curriculum had it right. If overtly religious schools could see that the 2 subjects were separate and distinct and taught it thusly, I fail to see why the controversy in the public arena.
I know I'm speaking to the choir but just wanted to state that.

40 HelloDare  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:08:24pm

re: #15 jaunte

Creationists of what religion?

Non-Muslim, American creationist. According to many of them, Darwin was responsible for Hitler. I'm sure many people would blow up a large statue of Hitler.

41 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:08:36pm

Does anyone have a link to listen to the zero's speech? This will be my first listen to this empty suit.

42 tradewind  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:09:02pm

re: #29 mean Gene

Two of the only decent shows pre-empted from my DVR. Chuck , House.... ten minutes of either of them is worth more than two hours of BHO.
Dammit!
At least it's at seven. Not even Teh One would take on Jack Bauer.

43 Cathypop  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:09:53pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

whoa! you can be born conservative? Is there like a sperm bank for that?
just teasing you Cath..
If anybody tried to teach my kids anything but pure science there would be a real issue at hand..
I was always pissed at the nuns for making us understand all the gas laws in Junior High..They were f'n brutal in science..

And the nuns did not bring the bible into math class, history class, science class or any other classes.

44 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:10:55pm

re: #41 Wishing

Does anyone have a link to listen to the zero's speech? This will be my first listen to this empty suit.

It's going to be on most radio stations and all network stations and many cable news stations.

If needed, look up KHOW website and take the live feed at 6:00 Mountain (about 50 minutes from now)

45 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:10:59pm

re: #35 tradewind

Not... answering...
(7 central)

thanks

46 screaming_eagle  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:11:14pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

Come on now. Are you suggesting that there is a connection from GE to NBC to positive spin on the stimulus package to the possibility that tons of the stimulus money is going to go to GE and GE contractors?

No, you have to be joking.

:)

No only am I not suggesting that, I'm not suggesting any link between their constant green coverage.

47 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #44 Walter L. Newton

It's going to be on most radio stations and all network stations and many cable news stations.

If needed, look up KHOW website and take the live feed at 6:00 Mountain (about 50 minutes from now)

Tks Walter.

48 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:11:54pm

re: #37 horse

It is a HUGE issue because the ID crowd wants to foist their religious views on everyone. If you think this will end at the local level, you are sorely mistaken. These folks are going to take this as far as they can for as long as they can. Teaching religious belief does not belong in the public classroom; it belongs in Sunday school or the home. Do not underestimate the ID crowd, they are in it to win at all costs and that is what makes them so dangerous.

49 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:11:56pm

re: #40 HelloDare

I think it's actually very unlikely that anyone would blow up a statue of Darwin.
They might use it as a focal point for a protest, but the DI is a lawfare operation, not a group of terrorists.

50 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:12:23pm

re: #43 Cathypop

And the nuns did not bring the bible into math class, history class, science class or any other classes.

Well, that's sort of a straw man. I never saw the bible in twelve years of Catholic school. And I'm not trying to be tacky here. But the Catholic church give a lot of weight to the catechism and writings of the church fathers and other such material.

51 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:12:36pm

re: #7 Jetpilot1101

The Bible was never meant to be a science textbook. If it was, you'd see chapters on superstring theory and quantum mechanics. When will these "Christians" understand that God never intended his Word to be used as science and especially not dishonest science. "Lying for Jesus" really pisses me off and I'm a Christian.

You and me, brother. I've been making that point for awhile.

I've also told off our fellow Christians who've called Charles names and worse.

52 Soona'  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:12:36pm

re: #37 horse

It's a minor issue, compared with many others.

This movement will make some progress at the local levels, and maybe a couple of states. But it will not change anything at the university level, and probably very little at the high school level, even in those areas affected most.

It won't actually hurt anyone other than those small numbers who really want to believe the actual science on this topic is wrong. It is just some useless information they will receive. No worse than half of what passes for social "sciences" and some physical "sciences" these days. With the phony baloney in those other "sciences", it is no wonder those without knowledge can easily doubt aspects of evolution.

If kids are exposed to it at the local level, it won't change academic standards for testing and university admittance. They will still have to learn the true science if they are to progress academically. Unfortunately, that is not the case with the other fraudulent "sciences" which have infected the university levels and directly affect our lives via phony government policy.

Letting them believe that , evolution is not proven will not affect government policy and our lives. There will be no redistribution of wealth or additional taxes if they think dinosaurs lived only 6,000 year ago, or humans magically appeared out of thin air. This is really a distraction from other more important issues that do affect us and our immediate future.

Hypothetially. If given a choice, I'd rather give schools the choice to teach creationism/Darwinism than the global warming bullshit they have to teach now.

53 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:13:32pm

re: #47 Wishing

Tks Walter.

But don't listen to Dan Caplis and Craig Silverman right now. It's a Hannity and Colmes type show, two lawyers, and Dan is the most annoying conservative you ever heard.

54 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:13:53pm

re: #37 horse

No, it just damages the foundation of science education in a country that relies on science and technology for its economic power.

/How could that be a bad thing?

55 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:14:22pm

re: #51 jcm

You and me, brother. I've been making that point for awhile.

I've also told off our fellow Christians who've called Charles names and worse.

Sometimes I feel I'm in a losing argument but I'll keep defending Charles on this one because he's right. It saddens me that people who call themselves Christians are using God's word in such a dishonest fashion.

56 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:14:44pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

But don't listen to Dan Caplis and Craig Silverman right now. It's a Hannity and Colmes type show, two lawyers, and Dan is the most annoying conservative you ever heard.

LOL I will tone him out.

57 justdanny  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:14:56pm

We'll never win, you know this don't you Charles? Reason will never fully prevail. We are these mighty big brained highly evolved apes, we are animals. And as long as we are animals we'll be subject to the lore and fiction of the ages. And we will always be animals.

58 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:15:21pm

re: #37 horse

Biblical cosmology isn't science. We open the the door in public schools to one religions cosmology, and by default the door is open to all.

I rather teach my kinds the Bible at home, let them learn science at school. And not have them being taught every version of cosmology instead of the science they need to get ahead.

59 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:15:57pm

re: #52 Soona'

But if your kid doesn't know the solid science behind the greenhouse effect, then how can he make a reasonable argument against the global warming alarmism camp? Should they stop teaching physics too?

60 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:15:59pm

We should all be offended by deception.

another example: [Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

61 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:16:48pm

re: #57 justdanny

We'll never win, you know this don't you Charles? Reason will never fully prevail. We are these mighty big brained highly evolved apes, we are animals. And as long as we are animals we'll be subject to the lore and fiction of the ages. And we will always be animals.

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty.

62 USBeast  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:16:53pm

"Academic Freedom" is only the chickens of the Sixties "revolution" coming home to roost. If all truth is relative for one set of nutcases the same rules must apply for their opponents and facts be damned. The Creationists are marching through the door opened by Sixties campus radicals
"Academic Anarchy" would be a better label.

63 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:17:05pm

re: #55 Jetpilot1101

Sometimes I feel I'm in a losing argument but I'll keep defending Charles on this one because he's right. It saddens me that people who call themselves Christians are using God's word in such a dishonest fashion.

It's damaging to the testimony of all Christians. It's damaging to our kids education. And as you say DISHONEST!

64 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:17:45pm

re: #55 Jetpilot1101

Sometimes I feel I'm in a losing argument but I'll keep defending Charles on this one because he's right. It saddens me that people who call themselves Christians are using God's word in such a dishonest fashion.

It saddens me to see so many flavors of religious thought denying obvious science and other topics in a dishonest fashion.

Anti-semitism is not just a Islamic track. The christian churches promoted it for 2000 years.

And it was the same kind of dishonesty against Jews that we see being used today against science.

65 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:17:54pm

re: #63 jcm

It's damaging to the testimony of all Christians. It's damaging to our kids education. And as you say DISHONEST!

AMEN!

66 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:18:03pm

re: #60 FrogMarch

We should all be offended by deception.

another example: [Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

A Billion here, a Billion there.......

67 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:18:05pm

re: #57 justdanny

We'll never win, you know this don't you Charles? Reason will never fully prevail. We are these mighty big brained highly evolved apes, we are animals. And as long as we are animals we'll be subject to the lore and fiction of the ages. And we will always be animals.

Doesn't mean that specific irrationalities can't be eliminated. Much of Europe has accepted evolution, although now they are dealing with homeopathy nutcases...

68 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:18:11pm

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

You want "House"...what you're gonna get is "Home Mortgage Bailout."

But, but, but, I live in an apartment...:(

69 Soona'  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:19:00pm

Just for my own information. If a state adopts a stance that creationism can be taught in schools, does that mean schools have to teach it? Or is there any choice in the matter. Seems to me there would be.

70 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:19:19pm

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

It saddens me to see so many flavors of religious thought denying obvious science and other topics in a dishonest fashion.

Anti-semitism is not just a Islamic track. The christian churches promoted it for 2000 years.

And it was the same kind of dishonesty against Jews that we see being used today against science.

onward christian soldiers
marching as to war...

71 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:19:47pm

re: #60 FrogMarch

We should all be offended by deception.

another example: [Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

Spit.

72 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:20:10pm

Intelligent Design is what happens when Creationists learn to think like Postmodernists.

"From the postmodern point-of-view, modernism is defined by its belief in objective knowledge, or at least in the possibility of objective knowledge, and by its assumption that such knowledge refers directly to an objective reality which would appear in the same way to any observer. A further characteristic modernist assumption is that knowledge is a product of the activity of the individual mind, fashioning its ideas or mental schemas to correspond with this objective reality.

Postmodernism, on the other hand, argues that what we call knowledge is a special kind of story, a text or discourse that puts together words and images in ways that seem pleasing or useful to a particular culture, or even just to some relatively powerful members of that culture. It denies that we can have objective knowledge, because what we call knowledge has to be made with the linguistic and other meaning-making resources of a particular culture, and different cultures can see the world in very different ways, all of which "work" in their own terms."


[Link: academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu...]

73 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:20:12pm

re: #43 Cathypop

And the nuns did not bring the bible into math class, history class, science class or any other classes.

You better bet a million dollars that if I could read in the Bible that if the tangent angle equaled the Opposite angle divided by the Tangent angle..I would have my trusty bible right there with me..
You don't mix religion and science...
My nuns were brutal..we never got along at all..but i kind of respected them..
sort of...But when it came to science, math and English..Don't mess with da nuns..They were strickly by the book..

74 Bloodnok  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:20:17pm

re: #37 horse
With the phony baloney in those other "sciences", it is no wonder those without knowledge can easily doubt aspects of evolution

That is BS. The proponents of these bills know the evidence of Evolution and choose to ignore it (enough to devise deceptive talking points around it). They are not the uneducated rubes you make them out to be.

75 HelloDare  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:20:34pm

SCIENCE LEADS YOU TO KILLING PEOPLE -- Ben Stein

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Crouch: That’s right.

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

Crouch: Good word, good word.

76 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:20:53pm

re: #69 Soona'

Just for my own information. If a state adopts a stance that creationism can be taught in schools, does that mean schools have to teach it? Or is there any choice in the matter. Seems to me there would be.

How 'bout a little fire, Scarecrow?

77 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:21:32pm

re: #72 jaunte

Exactly, DI is a group of Christians using modern marxist deconstructionist techique to attack science.

78 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:21:48pm

re: #70 albusteve

onward christian soldiers
marching as to war...

Steve, your tone is not the direction I was going in. You are in a baiting mood tonight, keep my comments out of it.

79 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:02pm

re: #77 Thanos

Talk about bizarre political bedfellows.

80 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:02pm

Sen. Leahy proposes truth panel on Bush era abuses

Feb 9 02:18 PM US/Eastern

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This guy is raving lunatic.

81 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:20pm

re: #71 Wishing

Spit.

“Deception is a cruel act... It often has many players on different stages that corrode the soul.”

Donna A. Favors

82 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:25pm

re: #75 HelloDare

From your link:

You can see the whole shameful thing here. It's a pity Crouch didn't invite the Rev. Jeremiah Wright into the studio for a three-way conversation. It would have elevated the tone.

Heh.

83 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:25pm

re: #75 HelloDare

I spit again. LOL I am going to end up dehydrated at this rate!

84 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:28pm

re: #77 Thanos

Exactly, DI is a group of Christians using modern marxist deconstructionist techique to attack science.

That's a mouthful. I just through they were wrong.

85 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:37pm

re: #3 karmic_inquisitor

Well we are past the thin edge of the wedge.

We are into the thicker parts.

And it happened so fast!
good grief.

86 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:44pm

re: #59 Thanos

But if your kid doesn't know the solid science behind the greenhouse effect, then how can he make a reasonable argument against the global warming alarmism camp? Should they stop teaching physics too?

Science or not... it's becoming law......in WA State.

Senate Bill 5854 (Reducing climate pollution in the built environment)
Introduced by Sen. Derek Kilmer, (D-Gig Harbor) (D) on February 4, 2009, requires the department of community, trade, and economic development to develop and implement a strategic plan for enhancing energy efficiency in and reducing greenhouse gas emissions from homes, buildings, districts, and neighborhoods to reduce climate pollution in the built environment

"identify barriers to achieving net zero energy use in homes and buildings and identify how to overcome these barriers in updated energy codes and through complementary policies."

Legislation overcomes thermodynamics!

87 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:22:57pm

re: #75 HelloDare

SCIENCE LEADS YOU TO KILLING PEOPLE -- Ben Stein

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Crouch: That’s right.

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

Crouch: Good word, good word.

what a lunatic....thanks for the laughs...obviously his 'glorious place' is a grave

88 LGoPs  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:23:34pm

re: #80 Nevergiveup

Sen. Leahy proposes truth panel on Bush era abuses

Feb 9 02:18 PM US/Eastern

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This guy is raving lunatic.

Leahy needs to follow Cheney's advice and go have sex with himself.....

89 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:23:44pm

re: #85 reine.de.tout

And it happened so fast!
good grief.

And it's accelerating at an alarming rate.

90 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:06pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops

You better bet a million dollars that if I could read in the Bible that if the tangent angle equaled the Opposite angle divided by the Tangent Adjacent angle..I would have my trusty bible right there with me..
You don't mix religion and science...
My nuns were brutal..we never got along at all..but i kind of respected them..
sort of...But when it came to science, math and English..Don't mess with da nuns..They were strickly by the book..


PIMF..

91 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:07pm

re: #37 horse

Another "Don't look behind that Curtain!" post.

92 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:09pm

This is like an attack on America.

93 MJBrutus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:22pm

re: #5 Bloodnok

So, does anyone out there still think this isn't an issue?

What makes it an issue for me, is that the GOP allowed these curs in to their bed! As the saying goes, when you dine with the devil, bring a long spoon. Well Reagan did just that, but his successors came up short in the spoon department and today the GOP is tarred with the stain of the troglodyte, anti-science party.

94 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:23pm

I'm always reminded, by threads like this one, of Bruce Bawer.
The author of While Europe Slept.
By his own account, he moved to Europe with his partner in the late 1990s.
WHY?
Because he found the atmosphere of conservative Christianity in the United States increasingly stifling.
BUT.....living in both the Netherlands and Norway and learning to speak Dutch and Norwegian, he found that the real threat to his personal freedom came not from fundamentalist Christians, but from the intolerant Muslims who were both homophobic and increasingly vocal throughout the Continent.
The Apostle Paul wrote that we should aim our blows so as NOT to hit the air, but to inflict damage.
When I'd come home from school with some story about Jew hatred or how I got the ''silent treatment'' from so-called Christian teachers and fellow students* my parents were there to teach me correctly how to love my fellow man.
IF parents have children coming home from school after having been exposed to false teachings it won't have been the first time in human history that this has happened.
Those parents can teach right from wrong in the home and the lessons will be better learned.

* I was the smartest student in my school, but a Jew.
Even though I had scholarships to both MIT and Cal Tech we did an unheard of thing my Senior year......we voted for Valedictorian! That school was NOT going to allow a Jew to talk publically at any forum they supplied.

95 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:29pm

“All deception in the course of life is indeed nothing else but a lie reduced to practice, and falsehood passing from words into things.”

Robert Southey

96 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:24:30pm

Perhaps we will have a post modern Nietzsche, but this century the theme will be "Science is dead!"

The corruption of Science means it can no longer act as a logical and emotionally neutral influence on our society's decision making. It has been stabbed by many on all political fronts for their own purposes, and each side has ownership in its murder. Perhaps for many, it can not be trusted before being verified, much like the news media.

When set adrift without anchors in faith, truth or scientific method, what unknown shore shall we land upon?

97 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:02pm

re: #75 HelloDare

There is also a link to LGF in that link:

Meanwhile, the Blood Libel character of what Stein is saying is beginning to dawn on thoughtful Jews. The Anti-Defamation League has issued a statement deploring Stein's Darwin-inspired-the Holocaust thesis.
98 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:03pm

re: #75 HelloDare

SCIENCE LEADS YOU TO KILLING PEOPLE -- Ben Stein

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Crouch: That’s right.

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

Crouch: Good word, good word.

Good old Trinity Broadcasting. The trinity of money, more money and MoneyMoneyMoney.

Stein has really jumped the shark.

99 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:05pm

The sheer number and volume of these attacks on education lead me to wonder whether there's a kind of panic spreading in the ID/DI world: Are they afraid they're running out of time? They're being called on their BS everywhere they turn up. Are they attempting to ram through as much legislation as they can before Obama has a chance to crush their hopes by new court appointments?

In that case, I can only say hurry up Obama.

100 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:19pm

re: #79 jaunte

Talk about bizarre political bedfellows.

Not strange at all, both extreme end ideologies can exist only by denying objective reality.

101 itellu3times  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:34pm

re: #57 justdanny

We'll never win, you know this don't you Charles? Reason will never fully prevail. We are these mighty big brained highly evolved apes, we are animals. And as long as we are animals we'll be subject to the lore and fiction of the ages. And we will always be animals.

Speak for yourself,
or I'll bite you.
/

102 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:40pm

re: #80 Nevergiveup

Sen. Leahy proposes truth panel on Bush era abuses

Feb 9 02:18 PM US/Eastern

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This guy is raving lunatic.

Can we have a truth panel on what the democrats corruptocrats are attempting to hoist on us now?

103 Soona'  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:46pm

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

It saddens me to see so many flavors of religious thought denying obvious science and other topics in a dishonest fashion.

Anti-semitism is not just a Islamic track. The christian churches promoted it for 2000 years.

And it was the same kind of dishonesty against Jews that we see being used today against science.

Quit being a moral relativist, Walter. I don't think anyone is being gassed over this.

104 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:47pm

re: #99 Cato the Elder

Indeed.

105 WitchDoctor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:48pm

I'll probably get dinged down just for not joining in, but I would like to state at this time that I am resigned to ID being every other thread for Charles. I think I was just fooled by the early tone of the blog (in my estimation of course) being mainly anti terrorist.

However I do realize it is Charles' blog and he can darn well post whatever he wants ( I will bitch fully when I get my own blog... i.e., never :) So far now, party on. Personally I am more worried by the coming socialism in the name of global warming and this stimulus package, but we all have our own axes to grind.

Just had to get it off my chest. I also appose the moronic side of creationism (ignoring science in favour of craziness), but do believe "God did it," all of it. scientific laws and all. Which I assume is in accordance with LGF and not opposition to it, as I thought earlier. Hope I'm right.

WD Out. Oh, and could I get a Mandy-style "for all you who stayed home because McCain wasn't conservative enough..."

106 justdanny  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:49pm

re: #61 CyanSnowHawk
I wouldnt say Negative. I prefer to use Resigned.

107 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:25:50pm

re: #52 Soona'

Hypothetially. If given a choice, I'd rather give schools the choice to teach creationism/Darwinism than the global warming bullshit they have to teach now.

Public high schools should not be teaching creationist religious dogmas in science class, any more than they should be teaching flat earth geocentrism, astrology, alchemy, phrenology, the phlogiston theory of fire, the air-earth-fire-water theory of the elements, or the ancient herbalist doctrine of signatures.

It makes about as much sense to advocate the teaching of creationism in public high school science classes as an antidote against AGW as it does to dose folks poisoned by arsenic with strychnine. Although AGW is proving to be bad science a mere two decades after it was first proposed, with researchers following the empirical evidence away from it in droves, at least it is science, and as such, subsequent experimental investigation is correcting its misconceptions. In contrast, evolutionary theory exemplary science, supported by vast masses of empirical evidence meticulously and painstakingly accumulated over the last 150 years and without a single shred of credible contradicting empirical evidence yet found, while creationism/ID is not science at all, but religious dogma that is either plainly stated as such or poorly camoflaged under a welter of pseudoscientific jargon and a Disco-Institute-crafted propaganda PR label, lacking even a single iota or whit of supporting empirical evidence.

108 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:26:05pm

re: #80 Nevergiveup

Sen. Leahy proposes truth panel on Bush era abuses

Feb 9 02:18 PM US/Eastern

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This guy is raving lunatic.

Leaky Leahy? The guy's whose loose lips killed the guy who gave us the Achille Lauro hijackers, that Leahy?

109 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:26:09pm

re: #30 albusteve

BO at 8 eastern

WhiteHouse.gov

President Obama will hold his first press conference tonight at 8 p.m. eastern / 7 p.m. central. We'll be streaming the event live here on WhiteHouse.gov, so check back soon.
110 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:26:28pm

Fundamentalist Christian Cosmology coming soon to a school near you! =)

We must include the strength and weaknesses about Jerusalem not being the center of the flat earth!

All you Ptolemites will soon see....

111 debutaunt  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:26:31pm

re: #30 albusteve

BO at 8 eastern

Hey, where'd his "H" go?

112 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:26:54pm

re: #94 mean Gene

I'm always reminded, by threads like this one, of Bruce Bawer.
The author of While Europe Slept.
By his own account, he moved to Europe with his partner in the late 1990s.
WHY?
Because he found the atmosphere of conservative Christianity in the United States increasingly stifling.
BUT.....living in both the Netherlands and Norway and learning to speak Dutch and Norwegian, he found that the real threat to his personal freedom came not from fundamentalist Christians, but from the intolerant Muslims who were both homophobic and increasingly vocal throughout the Continent.
The Apostle Paul wrote that we should aim our blows so as NOT to hit the air, but to inflict damage.
When I'd come home from school with some story about Jew hatred or how I got the ''silent treatment'' from so-called Christian teachers and fellow students* my parents were there to teach me correctly how to love my fellow man.
IF parents have children coming home from school after having been exposed to false teachings it won't have been the first time in human history that this has happened.
Those parents can teach right from wrong in the home and the lessons will be better learned.

* I was the smartest student in my school, but a Jew.
Even though I had scholarships to both MIT and Cal Tech we did an unheard of thing my Senior year......we voted for Valedictorian! That school was NOT going to allow a Jew to talk publically at any forum they supplied.

Their loss. Jerks..

113 itellu3times  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:27:14pm

re: #75 HelloDare

and science leads you to killing people.

hmm, where does senility lead you?

114 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:27:30pm

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

Steve, your tone is not the direction I was going in. You are in a baiting mood tonight, keep my comments out of it.

give us 1000 words of the direction you were going in...I'm not baiting anybody just remembering a childhood song...you said christians have promoted anti-semetism for 2000 yrs and maybe this was their anthem...

115 screaming_eagle  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:27:50pm

re: #96 horse

Does that mean we're all gonna die?

116 donk1100  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:27:56pm

i rarely comment, but read daily. my comments are basied on a b.s. in biology, m.s. science in genetics and a doctor of medicine. i studied Darwin back in the 70's as well as his followers.......his methods were poor, his research wanting and his conclusions were unwarranted. any science student will remember these words because that is what your adviser said about your first thesis.(i was crushed when i heard these words)....evolution is an interesting idea, but it is theory not scientific law. i like theory, it promotes discussion, it spawns ideas, and it allows the young scientist to push the envelope. the other side of this argument are expressing their faith, and they seem just as stubborn as you seem to be. be careful of dogma,,,it usually bites you in the butt one day. we are not the smartist people that will ever live.....dr. d. c. neal,

117 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:28:03pm

re: #74 Bloodnok


With the phony baloney in those other "sciences", it is no wonder those without knowledge can easily doubt aspects of evolution

That is BS. The proponents of these bills know the evidence of Evolution and choose to ignore it (enough to devise deceptive talking points around it). They are not the uneducated rubes you make them out to be.

Interesting, do you have any sources for this? Are there some recordings of them saying how they really believe in evolution, but are using this issue to seize influence or build churches in school or something like that?

118 debutaunt  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:28:05pm

re: #37 horse

Horse something.

119 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:28:08pm

re: #96 horse

Science has been politicized multiple times in its history, it always endures and outlives the falsity. Reality is what it is, you're a primate, get over it.

120 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:28:15pm

re: #103 Soona'

Quit being a moral relativist, Walter. I don't think anyone is being gassed over this.

You are nuts. Calling me a moral relativist. Sorry joe, not me, and anyone that know me, live or on this blog would never claim that. Stop trying to set up a straw man, because you don't have the information to knock it down (as you proved in your last message to me on the last thread).

121 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:28:27pm

re: #93 MJBrutus

What makes it an issue for me, is that the GOP allowed these curs in to their bed! As the saying goes, when you dine with the devil, bring a long spoon. Well Reagan did just that, but his successors came up short in the spoon department and today the GOP is tarred with the stain of the troglodyte, anti-science party.

yes exactly...nicely said

122 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:28:29pm

re: #102 FrogMarch

Can we have a truth panel on what the democrats corruptocrats are attempting to hoist on us now?

Nicholson: "You want answers?!"
Cruise: "I want the truth!"
Nicholson:"You can't HANDLE the truth..!"

123 USBeast  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:29:07pm

re: #115 screaming_eagle

Does that mean we're all gonna die?

Yeah, eventually, someday.

124 bosforus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:29:16pm

My Bible was published by McGraw-Hill.
/

125 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:29:27pm

re: #105 WitchDoctor

Bye Bye. Charles does not want to be told what to post on this blog. Got that.

126 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:29:28pm
127 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:29:33pm

re: #99 Cato the Elder

Yes, the ID shills are coming down with great wrath, for they know their time is short.

128 justdanny  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:30:20pm

re: #67 Basho
I believe we are unevolved enough that we can't escape the "primitive trappings" of fear.

Dominant cultures give us hope and then dominant cultures take that hope away. The pendulum swings. Animal. Divine. Animal. Divine.

129 HelloDare  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:30:33pm

I hear Ben Stein is producing a new film about Galileo, Heliocentrism, my ass.

130 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:30:44pm

re: #106 justdanny

I wouldnt say Negative. I prefer to use Resigned.

But that wasn't in the movie.

131 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:30:58pm

re: #116 donk1100

The 'other side of this argument' has done very little work in science to support the demand that their ideas be treated equally with current evolutionary biology. Most of the effort has been PR, legal, and political.

132 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:31:34pm

re: #116 donk1100

"I speak from authority, Darwin was wrong"...

Please provide us your theory then, and proof thereof?

133 MJBrutus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:32:19pm

re: #116 donk1100

i rarely comment, but read daily. my comments are basied on a b.s. in biology, m.s. science in genetics and a doctor of medicine. i studied Darwin back in the 70's as well as his followers.......his methods were poor, his research wanting and his conclusions were unwarranted. any science student will remember these words because that is what your adviser said about your first thesis.(i was crushed when i heard these words)....evolution is an interesting idea, but it is theory not scientific law. i like theory, it promotes discussion, it spawns ideas, and it allows the young scientist to push the envelope. the other side of this argument are expressing their faith, and they seem just as stubborn as you seem to be. be careful of dogma,,,it usually bites you in the butt one day. we are not the smartist people that will ever live.....dr. d. c. neal,

Without addressing whether the ToE is correct or not (I suspect that your mind i closed) one can say with certainty that the ToE is a SCIENTIFIC theory that has not been disproved, and has been supported by countless findings and experiments. There is no viable alternate scientific theory to explain the origin of species. Due to that and its tremendous utility and demonstrated predictive power the theory is an essential part of any scientific class which covers biology. End of story.

134 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:33:32pm

re: #116 donk1100

I do believe you put about as much effort into your 'study' of Darwin, as you put into commenting here.

donk1100

(Logged in)
Registered since: Nov 6, 2004 at 3:48 pm
No. of comments posted: 9
No. of links posted: 0

135 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:33:58pm

The Discovery Institute makes further discoveries in the advancement of science, bringing a clearer picture of the Universe as it is intended to be!

By using the latest technology available to their ideology, they have produced the following plates:

The Waters Above The Firmament

The World and the Pillars of Heaven

The World and The Ocean

The Universe

136 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:33:59pm

The following is a list of states with pending "academic freedom" bills sorted by Public School Rankings by State.....

8. Iowa
12. Virginia
26. Missouri
31. Michigan
32. South Carolina
33. Texas and West Virginia (tie)
39. Florida
40. Oklahoma
44. Alabama
46. Louisiana
50. New Mexico

You'll notice they are primarily targeting the bottom 50% of states with the worst public education.

137 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:09pm

re: #116 donk1100

b.s. in biology, m.s. science in genetics and a doctor of medicine

Then you should know Darwin was just the first building block, that the entire theory of evolution has itself evolved since Darwin published. Evolution no longer merely encompasses Darwin but the whole multi-disciplinary spectrum of fields that have added to the body of evidence.

I would also think with your academic background you would know better than to use the common definition of theory vs. the scientific definition.

138 avanti  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:24pm

re: #126 taxfreekiller

They don't need the 3 GOP votes tomorrow, just a majority vote since they got the closure vote today.

139 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:30pm
140 Steve Rogers  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:33pm

Assuming the Republicans don't listen to reason and continue down this self-destructive path, they will -- thanks to their embracing of anti-science nonsense like this (and aiming it at other people's captive children), and their big-spending, big-government ways -- become marginalized. For all practical reasons there really won't be much of a difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party for people who love science, freedom, and limited government.

So the question is this: Which party will take their place in opposing the Democrats?

I've voted Libertarian many times over the years. But I am a pragmatic libertarian. I really don't care if it is the Republican Party or the Libertarian Party that helps bring about freedom and limited government that doesn't force other people's children to accept religion as science. Granted, I know that many libertarians hold some anti-science views, but I doubt that most would push it on other people's children the way Republicans do.

The Republicans already have the entrenched mechanisms and cash on hand to run and win state and national elections, but for the past several years, they just haven't been doing what they once stood for. Republicans have grown government larger than the Democrats. Republicans have outspent Democrats. And now they want to force other people's children to accept one religion and claim it is science in the process. I know the libertarians have their faults (and nutjobs), but I really don't see what the Republicans have to offer at this point. Until they change their ways and get back to the principles they once stood for (and Republicans voters and libertarians still do stand for), they will continue to hand elections over to the Democrats.

141 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:36pm

The only thing Discovery Institute refuses to do to further their hypothesis is science.
Conjecture is not science, where's the science, the studies, the proof?

142 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:56pm

re: #136 Killgore Trout

50. New Mexico

I'm so proud.

/

143 ryannon  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:34:58pm

re: #14 HelloDare

Thought experiment:

There's a 180-foot tall sculpture of Charles Darwin in a sandstone cliff.
Would creationists blow it up?


Who blow up da Darwin?

/sigh.

144 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:35:21pm
145 Soona'  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:35:27pm

re: #107 Salamantis

Public high schools should not be teaching creationist religious dogmas in science class, any more than they should be teaching flat earth geocentrism, astrology, alchemy, phrenology, the phlogiston theory of fire, the air-earth-fire-water theory of the elements, or the ancient herbalist doctrine of signatures.

It makes about as much sense to advocate the teaching of creationism in public high school science classes as an antidote against AGW as it does to dose folks poisoned by arsenic with strychnine. Although AGW is proving to be bad science a mere two decades after it was first proposed, with researchers following the empirical evidence away from it in droves, at least it is science, and as such, subsequent experimental investigation is correcting its misconceptions. In contrast, evolutionary theory exemplary science, supported by vast masses of empirical evidence meticulously and painstakingly accumulated over the last 150 years and without a single shred of credible contradicting empirical evidence yet found, while creationism/ID is not science at all, but religious dogma that is either plainly stated as such or poorly camoflaged under a welter of pseudoscientific jargon and a Disco-Institute-crafted propaganda PR label, lacking even a single iota or whit of supporting empirical evidence.

But that's just it. Global warming is as much a religious teaching as creationism is. There was no real science applied to it. And just as you pointed out about so many starting to turn away from the GW theory, so will education systems turn away from strict creationism. I still think that schools will be given a choice as to what they want to teach. If not, I believe these laws will be overturned quickly once people see the folly.

146 covertress  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:35:38pm

Study: 50 percent of the public accepts a biblical creationist account of the formation of life but, not all is lost -- story includes a funny cartoon & Darwin Awards link. ;) - c

[Link: covertress.blogspot.com...]

147 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:35:54pm

re: #136 Killgore Trout

The following is a list of states with pending "academic freedom" bills sorted by Public School Rankings by State.....


You'll notice they are primarily targeting the bottom 50% of states with the worst public education.

Why not make them doubly or triply bad by teaching the supernatural as science!

///

148 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:35:56pm

re: #136 Killgore Trout

The following is a list of states with pending "academic freedom" bills sorted by Public School Rankings by State.....

You'll notice they are primarily targeting the bottom 50% of states with the worst public education.

And that's because the state of public education is in the state it is in in those states because those states are not stating the facts about creationism in the state schools.

149 daffy duck  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:36:07pm

re: #116 donk1100

SNIP

....evolution is an interesting idea, but it is theory not scientific law.

Besed on that staement, your alleged degrees are worthless. IMHO.

150 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:36:11pm

Maybe there is now room for a third party - maybe the Conservative Science Party?

151 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:36:17pm
152 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:36:29pm

re: #144 taxfreekiller

You are most welcome.

153 justdanny  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:36:46pm

re: #130 CyanSnowHawk As not in the movie as so too am I not in the movie.

;)

154 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:36:54pm

A comment I made, partly in jest the other day -


That whole final scene from Team America could be re-dialogued to great effect here. "because while everyone is discussing terrowism and sociarists and grobah wahming, my secret pwan will be unreashed, and schools all across your little red white and blue country will begin teaching creationism and a new dark age will begin, and all because of me"
.

Pretty much whats happening.

155 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:00pm

re: #127 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes, the ID shills are coming down with great wrath, for they know their time is short.

Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the shill.

For it is a human number.

156 bosforus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:11pm

Just watch 2001: A Space Odyssey, that'll clear all this mess up.
/

157 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:16pm

re: #138 avanti

They don't need the 3 GOP votes tomorrow, just a majority vote since they got the closure vote today.

If Spector, Snowe and Collins vote no, and the we have a clear demarcation solid (R) no and (D) yes, it is clearly a partisan bill and Obama and the (D)s own it. When it further tanks the economy it will be abundantly clear whose mill stone it is.

158 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:19pm

re: #142 wrenchwench

I think if you search you'll find different rankings. I seem to remember Louisiana and Alabama being at the bottom of the list.

159 Bloodnok  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:27pm

re: #117 horse

Interesting, do you have any sources for this? Are there some recordings of them saying how they really believe in evolution, but are using this issue to seize influence or build churches in school or something like that?

Read the Wedge Strategy.

160 LGoPs  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:36pm

re: #144 taxfreekiller

do not respond to me thank you

You mean nobody should respond to you, or just that individual up thread?

161 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:50pm

re: #154 Jimmah

A comment I made, partly in jest the other day -

Pretty much whats happening.

That was in my director's cut I have here.

162 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:37:55pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

Bye Bye. Charles does not want to be told what to post on this blog. Got that.

Sorry to jump in here Walter..But from an earlier post..You went to Catholic School for 12 years? Ouch..I begged to go to public school for the Nineth grade..seriously on my knees with tears in my eyes..It was like a scene from Godfather..My Pops crying out..My son doesn't love God..Why are you doing this to me? I thought you'd be a priest..It was pretty funny really when i think back on it..
/You think Einstein was happy to discover E=MC2? Not near as happy as I was to date High school girls..

163 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:38:10pm

re: #115 screaming_eagle

Does that mean we're all gonna die?

That we may; all story arcs have an eventual ending. I believe we are becoming more and more lost every year, scattered and adrift on uncharted currents. There are better known courses that would lead to progress, but major sections of our society have chosen not to travel them together.

164 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:38:52pm

re: #135 Summer

The Discovery Institute makes further discoveries in the advancement of science, bringing a clearer picture of the Universe as it is intended to be!

By using the latest technology available to their ideology, they have produced the following plates:

The Waters Above The Firmament

The World and the Pillars of Heaven

The World and The Ocean

The Universe

Stunning, really.
/

165 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:39:22pm

re: #135 Summer

I wonder if they use those pictures as evidence the Moon landings were faked.

166 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:39:34pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

I think if you search you'll find different rankings. I seem to remember Louisiana and Alabama being at the bottom of the list.

According to Gov. Richardson, when he was running for re-election, we're #6 in setting standards in education.

He never said where we were for meeting standards.

167 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:39:57pm

And yet more amazing advances in medical science by the Discovery Institute!

168 debutaunt  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:40:05pm

re: #119 Thanos

Science has been politicized multiple times in its history, it always endures and outlives the falsity. Reality is what it is, you're a primate, get over it.

Everybody: A=A.

169 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:40:06pm

re: #166 wrenchwench

According to Gov. Richardson, when he was running for re-election, we're #6 in setting standards in education.

He never said where we were for meeting standards.

Fine distinction.

170 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:40:15pm

re: #72 jaunte

It's a very nihilistic approach to reality.

171 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:40:18pm

Zero is on in about 20 minutes.

Time to watch an American president sell bacon!

172 seekeroftruth  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:40:31pm

OT - sorry, but anyone else seen this?
The Capital Markets Subcommittee Chair, Rep. Paul Kanjorski of Pennsylvania, tells C-Span how the world economy almost collapsed in a matter of hours.


At 2 minutes, 20 seconds into this C-Span video clip, Kanjorski reports on a "tremendous draw-down of money market accounts in the United States, to the tune of $550 billion dollars." According to Kanjorski, this electronic transfer occured over the period of an hour or two.
Kanjorski: "The Treasury opened its window to help. They pumped a hundred and five billion dollars into the system and quickly realized that they could not stem the tide. We were having an electronic run on the banks. They decided to close the operation, close down the money accounts, and announce a guarantee of $250,000 per account so there wouldn't be further panic and there. And that's what actually happened. If they had not done that their estimation was that by two o'clock that afternoon, five-and-a-half trillion dollars would have been drawn out of the money market system of the United States, would have collapsed the entire economy of the United States, and within 24 hours the world economy would have collapsed."


[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

173 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:40:34pm

re: #162 HoosierHoops

Sorry to jump in here Walter..But from an earlier post..You went to Catholic School for 12 years? Ouch..I begged to go to public school for the Nineth grade..seriously on my knees with tears in my eyes..It was like a scene from Godfather..My Pops crying out..My son doesn't love God..Why are you doing this to me? I thought you'd be a priest..It was pretty funny really when i think back on it..
/You think Einstein was happy to discover E=MC2? Not near as happy as I was to date High school girls..

And I DEMANDED to be sent to Catholic schools, for all 12 years. The public schools in Brooklyn were dangerous, at least for me, the biggest fat kid in school, and the same thing in the country in North Jersey. I'll be the first to admit that I hide from the world in Catholic school.

But, I had some of the most radical priests teaching me. By the time they were done with me, I was an atheist and they were working in Africa.

Worked out fine.

174 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:41:01pm

re: #171 astronmr20

Zero is on in about 20 minutes.

Time to watch an American president sell bacon!

If bacon were under $4.50 a pound I might buy some.

175 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:41:03pm

re: #171 astronmr20

Zero is on in about 20 minutes.

Time to watch an American president sell bacon!

I've volunteered to count the stutters.

176 avanti  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:41:48pm

re: #157 jcm

If Spector, Snowe and Collins vote no, and the we have a clear demarcation solid (R) no and (D) yes, it is clearly a partisan bill and Obama and the (D)s own it. When it further tanks the economy it will be abundantly clear whose mill stone it is.

True, if it tanks, they'll be in good shape. If the economy turns around, those 3 Republicans might be in trouble since they are from states turning blue. It's a gamble either way.

177 mean Gene  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:42:27pm

re: #175 Jetpilot1101

I've volunteered to count the stutters.

Then don't drink.....you'll lose count.

178 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #116 donk1100

i rarely comment, but read daily. my comments are basied on a b.s. in biology, m.s. science in genetics and a doctor of medicine.

Chiropracting bullshitter more like.

179 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:42:33pm

re: #176 avanti

True, if it tanks, they'll be in good shape. If the economy turns around, those 3 Republicans might be in trouble since they are from states turning blue. It's a gamble either way.

Ok take a fucking stand.

180 USBeast  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:42:56pm

re: #164 Wishing

Stunning, really.
/

What incredible realism! I'm totally blown away and my whole world view is changed.
/

181 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:43:06pm

re: #163 horse

You've been watching Glen Beck, I can tell.

182 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:43:08pm

re: #178 Jimmah

Chiropracting bullshitter more like.

He won't be back, don't even waste your time.

183 WitchDoctor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:43:18pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton
"Bye Bye. Charles does not want to be told what to post on this blog. Got that."

Uh, did you READ my post. I said I'm resigned to it. I didn't say he couldn't post X or Y.

Yeesh.

I see by the negative dings a number of others don't fully read the posts either. oh well.

184 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:43:19pm

re: #163 horse

There are better known courses that would lead to progress, but major sections of our society have chosen not to travel them together.

That sentence sounds very wrong to me.

185 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:43:29pm

re: #176 avanti

True, if it tanks, they'll be in good shape. If the economy turns around, those 3 Republicans might be in trouble since they are from states turning blue. It's a gamble either way.

It doesn't matter what the economy does. Those 3 "republicans" need to be horsewhipped.

186 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:44:04pm

re: #99 Cato the Elder

The sheer number and volume of these attacks on education lead me to wonder whether there's a kind of panic spreading in the ID/DI world: Are they afraid they're running out of time? They're being called on their BS everywhere they turn up. Are they attempting to ram through as much legislation as they can before Obama has a chance to crush their hopes by new court appointments?

In that case, I can only say hurry up Obama.

Hmm....makes sense to me.

187 MJBrutus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:44:47pm

re: #141 Thanos

The only thing Discovery Institute refuses to do to further their hypothesis is science.
Conjecture is not science, where's the science, the studies, the proof?

Your questions are good ones and get to the heart of of why the DI/ID crowd should be shut out of any discussion of science. A scientific theory is one that could be proven wrong, at least in theory, if it is wrong. That is because a scientific theory makes predictions that can be tested. The ToE can be disproven in countless ways in theory, if it were wrong. For example, if you could identify 3 species (any 3) that meet the following conditions you would prove the ToE false:

1. A and B possess a genetic mutation that C lacks.
2. A and C possess a genetic mutation that B lacks.

Creationism makes no predictions, so any outcome of any experiment is consistent with the "theory". A theory that can predict everything is a theory that predicts nothing!

188 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:44:58pm

re: #155 CyanSnowHawk

Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the shill.

For it is a human number.

And it's number is 64.246.188.3

189 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:45:13pm

re: #181 Thanos

You've been watching Glen Beck, I can tell.

I'm getting a little tired of Glen. He was the only national host I listened to. Rush is a jerk and Hannity is a... jerk.

But Glen is all over the place lately. Yea, I know, he's ADD (if I had a nickel for every time he has told us I...) but I'm getting tired of hearing him jump from one corner to the other.

190 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:45:15pm

re: #183 WitchDoctor

"Bye Bye. Charles does not want to be told what to post on this blog. Got that."

Uh, did you READ my post. I said I'm resigned to it. I didn't say he couldn't post X or Y.

Yeesh.

I see by the negative dings a number of others don't fully read the posts either. oh well.

No, we read them but we get awfully tired of people saying the same thing you did on every evolution thread.

191 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:45:22pm

re: #176 avanti

True, if it tanks, they'll be in good shape. If the economy turns around, those 3 Republicans might be in trouble since they are from states turning blue. It's a gamble either way.

It's not the time for political future considerations.
This type of stimulus is historically proven wrong.
Tax cuts, roll back of government and regulations works everytime it's been tried.

It's time to stand. For what we know works.
Not roll over for political expediency.

On July 4, 1776 Independence was far from a sure thing.

192 screaming_eagle  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:45:42pm

re: #163 horse

That we may; all story arcs have an eventual ending. I believe we are becoming more and more lost every year, scattered and adrift on uncharted currents. There are better known courses that would lead to progress, but major sections of our society have chosen not to travel them together.

First off,
Horseshit we're all gonna die one way or another.

Second,
Isn't that a generalization of the histroical collapse of many different civilazations.

193 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:45:50pm

re: #70 albusteve

onward christian soldiers
marching as to war...

In late 2001 (iirc) a friend dragged me to an Answers In Genesis seminar at a local church in Virginia. Ken Ham was one of about 5 speakers. That hymn was actually sung by most of the attendees as we were leaving.

My friend subsequently gave me with an autographed book by Ken Ham. I think the title was Dinosaurs of Eden. It was intended more for my daughters than me, but I trashed it pretty quick.

I don't like the way Virginia is headed.

194 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:46:02pm

re: #72 jaunte

Yes, it's all just a bunch of stories, so what harm in adding another one into the mix? Postmodernism....gaah.

195 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:46:12pm

re: #172 seekeroftruth

OT - sorry, but anyone else seen this?
The Capital Markets Subcommittee Chair, Rep. Paul Kanjorski of Pennsylvania, tells C-Span how the world economy almost collapsed in a matter of hours.


[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

Sorry, I call BS on that story.

196 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:46:17pm
197 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:46:37pm

re: #163 horse

That we may; all story arcs have an eventual ending. I believe we are becoming more and more lost every year, scattered and adrift on uncharted currents. There are better known courses that would lead to progress, but major sections of our society have chosen not to travel them together.

Show me scriptural justification for using government to spread the gospel.

198 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:47:18pm
199 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:47:23pm

pimf: game me with

200 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:47:26pm

re: #188 Slumbering Behemoth

And it's number is 64.246.188.3

Nice.

/You know I had to check it, didn't you?

201 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:47:46pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

I looked him up on the internet ages ago- he's a chiropracter. Nuff said.

202 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:47:54pm

gave me, damit.

203 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:48:02pm

re: #188 Slumbering Behemoth

And it's number is 64.246.188.3

IP address for the DI's website. Clever. BTW, look what popped up as the result of a Google search for that number:

Sites hosted on the Dissentfromdarwin server: 64.246.188.3

204 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:48:12pm
205 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:48:45pm

re: #197 jcm

Show me scriptural justification for using government to spread the gospel.

There is none. Almost any time the hebrew and greek scriptures reference governments, the discussion is either the about the moral pit that governments are, or the suggesting that you try to live in peace with them, but do not become as one of them.

206 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:48:48pm

gotta eat. BBL

207 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:48:48pm

"The biblical view of creationism" is really a hoot. Not only does the mask slip, but the mind as well. There is no biblical view of creationism, idiots. There is a biblical story (two, actually) of creation. The suffix "-ism", to my knowledge, never appears in the Hebrew bible.

LOL these fools what mortals be.

208 LGoPs  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:48:55pm

re: #157 jcm

If Spector, Snowe and Collins vote no, and the we have a clear demarcation solid (R) no and (D) yes, it is clearly a partisan bill and Obama and the (D)s own it. When it further tanks the economy it will be abundantly clear whose mill stone it is.

If Republican loyalty means nothing to these three, then I would make another appeal. The bill will pass. The Democrats have the votes. If in your heart of hearts you think this will save the Republic........then the Republic is saved (and you are nuts but that's a different topic).
Let the Democrats own this........please. It makes no difference whether you vote with them or not. You have your fabulous retirement and pensions locked in, regardless of what happens in the next election cycle. You are not being asked to pay too high a price for standing by your fellow Republicans. Abandon them and you will lose any little respect you have left in thier circles. And you will not gain respect from your 'esteemed colleagues' across the aisle. They laugh behind your back and call you 'Fool".
Stand fast and Hold them......Hold them.

209 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:49:09pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist

GAZE.

210 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:18pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist


He.

Can.

Post.

About.

Whatever.

The.

Fuck.

He.

Wants.

To.

Go start a blog:

[Link: www.blogger.com...]

Have fun.

211 fish  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:25pm

1) The Disco Institute is Full of Wackos
2) Any one that believes in "Young Earth" is a wacko
3) Any one that is against examining possible flaws in ANY Theory has some sort of an agenda.

Remember, when Galileo first suggested that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe, it angered not only the religious authorities but the Scientific leaders of the day.

Newton was scorned before he was accepted.

Is a discussion of possible Intelligent Design any different from a discussion of Einsteins multiverse theories?

It is only when the discussion turns to "Who" or "Why" does it become religious. Any discussion that begins "According to (Insert Sacred text here) this is what happened" does not belong in schools.

Keep the bible out of the classroom. But don't limit discussion of ideas.

Lastly for the record: I do understand that the "Acedemic Freedom" bills are being introduced by people with bad ideas and an agenda.

212 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:27pm

The Discovery Institute also makes headlines with new discoveries in Sociology!

213 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:28pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist

Another troll, Charles will get on to this when he has a chance. At least he left more of a comment than "nanananana."

214 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:38pm
215 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:41pm

re: #135 Summer

The Discovery Institute makes further discoveries in the advancement of science, bringing a clearer picture of the Universe as it is intended to be!

By using the latest technology available to their ideology, they have produced the following plates:

The Waters Above The Firmament

The World and the Pillars of Heaven

The World and The Ocean

The Universe

Where the fark are the Turtles?

Oops, wrong myth. My bad.

216 seekeroftruth  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:50:54pm

re: #195 Wishing

Sorry, I call BS on that story.

Really? I'm not sure what to think. There has been something very weird about this whole financial situation starting back in Sept. His story would make sense with why there was such urgency and panic.

217 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:51:01pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist

Karma: 2
Western Chauvinist
(Logged in)
Registered since: Apr 27, 2007 at 3:43 pm
No. of comments posted: 28
No. of links posted: 0

Tiresome is trolls popping in with old logins and low post counts telling Charles what and what not to do.

I hear Stinky warming up......

218 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:51:25pm

Hey y'all - I just received this e-mail from someone who is trustworthy and who has run it through SNOPES.
I hope Charles will forgive my OT with this but THIS IS IMPORTANT:
Hidden away in the bowels of the so-called "stimulus plan" are provisions which lay the foundation for a Universal Healthcare system -- and part of this system will be a new government bureaucracy whose function it will be to review every treatment decision made by every physician, including your doctor and the doctor of your loved ones, and then to determine whether or not you or yours should receive treatment based on a formula that places a dollar value on your life
or the life of your loved ones.

Unfortunately, this is not an exaggeration, or product of a conspiracy nut -- below is a link to an article at Bloomberg, written by Betsy McCaughey, whose resume includes being a former lieutenant governor of New York. We can be grateful to
her for ferreting this out.

So tell me, what is your life worth? Your child's -- your grandchild's -- your Mother's, your Father's, your friend's?

That this should be hidden away in a bill that is supposed to be an economic stimulus bill -- that the groundwork for such a radical revision of our medical sector should be established without any national debate -- it's breathtaking --
these are the radicals we are dealing with -- this is the result of many not doing their homework before voting.

Is this the change you can believe in?
Here are the facts as provided by Betsy McCaughey:

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]
And here is a site where you can get the names, e-mail addy's etc of your congresscritters:

[Link: walkingwithpeter.wordpress.com...]

I know I'm asking you for a lot - some of your precious time, but do honestly hope you'll e-mail or write to your congresscritters, EVEN IF THEY ARE DEMS.

219 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:51:27pm

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

What on earth are you talking about?

I think he's echoing a counterpoint to the G-d is Dead movement by some from the 60's.

220 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:51:34pm

re: #207 Cato the Elder

"The biblical view of creationism" is really a hoot. Not only does the mask slip, but the mind as well. There is no biblical view of creationism, idiots. There is a biblical story (two, actually) of creation. The suffix "-ism", to my knowledge, never appears in the Hebrew bible.

LOL these fools what mortals be.

And further in scripture there are some back references that skews the story even further.

221 MJBrutus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:52:45pm

re: #218 realwest

Hey y'all - I just received this e-mail from someone who is trustworthy and who has run it through SNOPES.
I hope Charles will forgive my OT with this but THIS IS IMPORTANT:
Hidden away in the bowels of the so-called "stimulus plan" are provisions which lay the foundation for a Universal Healthcare system -- and part of this system will be a new government bureaucracy whose function it will be to review every treatment decision made by every physician, including your doctor and the doctor of your loved ones, and then to determine whether or not you or yours should receive treatment based on a formula that places a dollar value on your life
or the life of your loved ones.

Unfortunately, this is not an exaggeration, or product of a conspiracy nut -- below is a link to an article at Bloomberg, written by Betsy McCaughey, whose resume includes being a former lieutenant governor of New York. We can be grateful to
her for ferreting this out.

So tell me, what is your life worth? Your child's -- your grandchild's -- your Mother's, your Father's, your friend's?

That this should be hidden away in a bill that is supposed to be an economic stimulus bill -- that the groundwork for such a radical revision of our medical sector should be established without any national debate -- it's breathtaking --
these are the radicals we are dealing with -- this is the result of many not doing their homework before voting.

Is this the change you can believe in?
Here are the facts as provided by Betsy McCaughey:

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]
And here is a site where you can get the names, e-mail addy's etc of your congresscritters:

[Link: walkingwithpeter.wordpress.com...]

I know I'm asking you for a lot - some of your precious time, but do honestly hope you'll e-mail or write to your congresscritters, EVEN IF THEY ARE DEMS.

Kim Strassel wrote a good piece on it in the WSJ called, "Stealth Care" a short while back.

222 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:52:51pm

re: #200 CyanSnowHawk

Of course. The overwhelming majority of the Lizard community is interested in factual reality, and fact checking is a favorite pastime. I had to make sure my reference was accurate.

223 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:52:53pm

Oh God, how dare those creationists even open their mouths on the holy eve of the birthday of the saint Darwin. Us monkey kin should not ever have to
deal with people who believe in a different origin of life.
/sarc I think.......

224 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:52:56pm

re: #159 Bloodnok

Read the Wedge Strategy.

That is a nice anti-anti-evolution site. Unfortunately, I found the postings a little emotionally driven and without much direct evidence of what the anti-evolutionary side has actually said and documented.
Like this recent posting.

I was just hoping the people representing this threat of taking the teaching of evolution out of the schools had testified to what they really believe and intend. I am reading a lot of conjecture of their belief and intent, just not from them.

225 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:53:14pm

re: #218 realwest

How have we not caught this yet?!?

What the hell do we pay these people for?!

226 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:53:18pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist is a fucking tool. =)

227 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:53:19pm

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

What on earth are you talking about?

He's giving an entirely new meaning to 'horse-sense.'

228 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:53:27pm

re: #205 Walter L. Newton

There is none. Almost any time the hebrew and greek scriptures reference governments, the discussion is either the about the moral pit that governments are, or the suggesting that you try to live in peace with them, but do not become as one of them.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

If the DI / ID crowd would but a fraction of the effort into the pattern of the Jesus, the apostles and Paul they might actually have some results.

229 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:53:31pm

re: #183 WitchDoctor

"Bye Bye. Charles does not want to be told what to post on this blog. Got that."

Uh, did you READ my post. I said I'm resigned to it. I didn't say he couldn't post X or Y.

Yeesh.

I see by the negative dings a number of others don't fully read the posts either. oh well.

I down-dinged your post, for the record, because the statement "every other post is an evolution thread" is a ridiculous exaggeration.

230 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:53:45pm

re: #183 WitchDoctor

"Bye Bye. Charles does not want to be told what to post on this blog. Got that."

Uh, did you READ my post. I said I'm resigned to it. I didn't say he couldn't post X or Y.

Yeesh.

I see by the negative dings a number of others don't fully read the posts either. oh well.

You're Resigned to it? Well goodie for you...you poor thing...
Charles has a well rounded blog of politics, Science, Technology,( my personal favorite) Open threads..Just about everything under the sun.Please shut the Hell up about what Charles is posting and either Contribute or go somewhere else..You poor thing..
And You'll note I didn't down ding you..We can talk it out..

231 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:54:56pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist

You WC are a DI shill who invested millions of dollars ages of manhours in campaigns to get this horseshit in classrooms while the marxists tookover, and in the process made the Republican party a laughing stock of reasonable people. What's your point?

232 MJBrutus  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:55:26pm

re: #223 tunnelrat

Oh God, how dare those creationists even open their mouths on the holy eve of the birthday of the saint Darwin. Us monkey kin should not ever have to
deal with people who believe in a different origin of life.
/sarc I think.......

Another one, who just can't seem to get the simple point in all of this. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. Nobody cares. What we care about is that you do not misrepresent it as science and that you do not force it in to science classrooms. Get it, just a little bit?

233 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:55:38pm

re: #118 debutaunt

Horse something.

Accurate for a response such as this.

234 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:55:52pm

Stinky is warmed up playing whack-a-mole.

235 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:56:20pm

re: #204 Western Chauvinist

You, preferring a godless universe, are convinced the origin of species was completely and utterly accidental.

Just who the fuck are you talking too?

236 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:56:45pm

re: #227 CyanSnowHawk

He's giving an entirely new meaning to 'horse-sense.'

237 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:57:01pm

re: #216 seekeroftruth

Really? I'm not sure what to think. There has been something very weird about this whole financial situation starting back in Sept. His story would make sense with why there was such urgency and panic.

A run on what banks? When? By who? Cmon....

238 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:57:24pm

Maybe this has already been covered on another thread, but doesn't it seem creationists are trying harder than ever to get their foot into our public school system. Why do they feel that this is a better time to get these bills passed than in previous years?

239 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:57:51pm

re: #96 horse

Perhaps we will have a post modern Nietzsche, but this century the theme will be "Science is dead!"

The corruption of Science means it can no longer act as a logical and emotionally neutral influence on our society's decision making. It has been stabbed by many on all political fronts for their own purposes, and each side has ownership in its murder. Perhaps for many, it can not be trusted before being verified, much like the news media.

When set adrift without anchors in faith, truth or scientific method, what unknown shore shall we land upon?

Empirical science shall continue to be guided by the scientific methods of checkable and replicable evidence, peer review, double-blind experimentation with controls, and the verification and falsification principles, and shall continue to reject the attempts to discredit, corrupt, undermine, subvert and suborn it by forcing religious dogmas into it that continue to issue from the creationist camp.

240 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:57:52pm
241 ArmyWife  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:57:52pm

Obama speech tonight. HOPE! CHANGE! OR DIE!

/I got an early copy

242 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:58:14pm

re: #238 gman

It seems like a time where everyone is trying to sneak their legislation in, doesn't it?

243 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:58:43pm

re: #75 HelloDare

I understand being angry about the holocaust - but that is so simplistically stupid. Scientists gassed his relatives, so all science is bad. Ben - really - get a grip.

244 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:58:43pm

re: #218 realwest

Hey Real...hannity covered this on his show today (radio).
He also TRIED to talk some sense into Senator Spectre. No luck.

245 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:58:53pm

re: #241 ArmyWife

Yup.. in about 2 minutes, I believe?

246 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:59:21pm

re: #235 Slumbering Behemoth

Just who the fuck are you talking too?

LOL that was funny.

247 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:59:42pm

No teleprompters that I can see, this aught to be fun.

248 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:00:00pm

re: #207 Cato the Elder

I take it you've seen this, then?

249 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:00:03pm

Someone tune in O's press conference. I don't feel like watching him bumble.

250 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:00:43pm

Western Chauvinist - "Game Over, man! Game Over!" =D

251 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:01:04pm

This is really sad. I thought republicans were for limited government and personal responsibility. But when it comes to education, they apparently believe it's the government's role to make sure my children are introduced to Biblical literalism, and that I'm no longer responsible for teaching my children my faith. Big government will do it all for me.

If this is what the party intends to push, then they'll continue to see the rational republicans, who are just as much a part of this party as the fundamentalists, flee for more intellectually honest political alternatives.

252 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:01:08pm

re: #181 Thanos

You've been watching Glen Beck, I can tell.

No, I have never watched his show. I haven't watched political TV for over ten years. I have heard his name, but don't really know anything about him. Do you think I would like him?

253 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:01:10pm

re: #243 FrogMarch

I understand being angry about the holocaust - but that is so simplistically stupid. Scientists gassed his relatives, so all science is bad. Ben - really - get a grip.

I'd like to see Stein live in a science free world.

Is fire to scientific?

254 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:02:04pm

re: #223 tunnelrat

Oh God, how dare those creationists even open their mouths on the holy eve of the birthday of the saint Darwin. Us monkey kin should not ever have to
deal with people who believe in a different origin of life.
/sarc I think.......

Speaking of tunnelrats, guess who's trying to burrow their way into the public school systems in the name of "Academic Freedom"?

255 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:02:09pm

Um...


CNN is playing patriotic music before O takes the stage. Odd.

256 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:02:43pm

re: #253 jcm

I'd like to see Stein live in a science free world.

Is fire to scientific?

Fire usually is representative of the first science by humans. He'd be having cold mutton for dinner instead. =)

257 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:02:51pm

re: #252 horse

He had an end of times show on tonight.

258 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:02:58pm

He's on. Going on about Elkhart, indiana. Same shit we saw before the election. Drag out the sob stories, without telling us how your plan works.

259 tradewind  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:03:01pm

Good news! Opening night of Westminster is on now, opposite Teh One, on USA channel.
Buh- bye, BHO, hello, Lhasa Aphso.

260 astronmr20  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:03:29pm

"food banks don't have enough to meet the demand."


Now he's telling us Americans are going hungry?

261 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:05:07pm

re: #251 Sharmuta

Is it really that important to you? There are Islamists out to destroy us and you are all concerned about how someone else believes that life originated on this planet? Try to put things into perspective please.

262 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:05:29pm

re: #253 jcm

I'd like to see Stein live in a science free world.

Is fire to scientific?

I thought God made fire. God made the wheel too. So Ben can drive around.
beep beep.

263 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:05:38pm

re: #255 astronmr20

Um...

CNN is playing patriotic music before O takes the stage. Odd.

You mean O doesn't get his own special music?

264 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:05:42pm

Chiropractors and dentists seem drawn to the fumes of bad science like moths to the flames. Could we have a podiatrist report in now, please?

265 WitchDoctor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:07:04pm

It's true, I have expressed dissatisfaction with the number of ID threads. Obviously most on here are happy with it. Done bitching about it, there are too many other important (and valuable) things covered/exposed on this blog for me to get too worked about this little thing.

Which is not to say I appreciate the extremely weak "good bye" post, btw, but it's just not worth getting worked up over. :)

266 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:07:15pm

re: #261 tunnelrat

It is possible to be concerned about more than one thing you know. Charles ratio so far today is 8:1 as far as anti stealth creationism goes, and the day's not over.

267 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:07:37pm
268 WitchDoctor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:08:32pm

re: #259 tradewind
"Now he's telling us American's are growing hungry?"

Heck, my liberal relatives will tell you that. I counter with, "really? when is the last time you heard about anyone starving to death in this country for anything other than sheer neglect?"

No answer.

269 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:09:05pm
270 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:09:26pm

re: #105 WitchDoctor

I'll probably get dinged down just for not joining in, but I would like to state at this time that I am resigned to ID being every other thread for Charles. I think I was just fooled by the early tone of the blog (in my estimation of course) being mainly anti terrorist.

However I do realize it is Charles' blog and he can darn well post whatever he wants ( I will bitch fully when I get my own blog... i.e., never :) So far now, party on. Personally I am more worried by the coming socialism in the name of global warming and this stimulus package, but we all have our own axes to grind.

Just had to get it off my chest. I also appose the moronic side of creationism (ignoring science in favour of craziness), but do believe "God did it," all of it. scientific laws and all. Which I assume is in accordance with LGF and not opposition to it, as I thought earlier. Hope I'm right.

WD Out. Oh, and could I get a Mandy-style "for all you who stayed home because McCain wasn't conservative enough..."

This blog is anti-idiotarian, and that designation includes news, discussion and criticism of not only Islamofascists and their leftist apologist/enablers, but also of euroneonazis and their attempts to infiltrate and co-opt antijihadism in order to piggyback upon its credibility (meanwhile destroying it), and crypto-creationist IDiots who are striving to topple the edifice of empirical science and erect their pet religiously sectarian dogma temples in its place.

271 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:09:51pm

re: #261 tunnelrat

Is it really that important to you? There are Islamists out to destroy us and you are all concerned about how someone else believes that life originated on this planet? Try to put things into perspective please.

If all you want to talk about is "Islamists trying to destroy us", there are plenty of other blogs that you might enjoy.

272 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:10:12pm

re: #96 horse

When set adrift without anchors in faith, truth or scientific method, what unknown shore shall we land upon?

The dreaded Beach of Bad Rhetoric.

273 ryannon  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:10:31pm

re: #198 ploome hineni

he is neighing

He is a neigh-sayer?

274 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:10:53pm

re: #192 screaming_eagle

First off,
Horseshit we're all gonna die one way or another.

Second,
Isn't that a generalization of the histroical collapse of many different civilazations.

LOL, your screen name is rather fitting. Do you realize your two points are contradicting? Either the subject of my comment was for individuals, or for society. Did you provide both versions to ensure you were at least 50% correct?

To address your second point that is a question; no, most societies in history have collapsed for pressures other than cultural fragmentation.

275 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:11:38pm

re: #261 tunnelrat

Is it really that important to you? There are Islamists out to destroy us and you are all concerned about how someone else believes that life originated on this planet? Try to put things into perspective please.

You should know by now that this isn't just about what someone else believes how life originated on this planet. Of course, that would require honesty on your part, though.

276 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:12:03pm

re: #272 Cato the Elder

The dreaded Beach of Bad Rhetoric.

LOL, we passed that location quite some time ago.

277 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:13:27pm

I would love to live in a science-free world.

Hogwarts would be a blast.

Oh, wait...one problem...yeah, that imaginary part.

Back to the world in which every action of every molecule can be described in regular scientific laws and interactions.

Bo-ring.

278 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:15:28pm

re: #6 Basho

I think I said this before, but I wonder what happened to those commenters who said Louisiana was an isolated incident and wouldn't spread elsewhere... I should go back to that very first thread about this bill and name names... but I'm too lazy...

Same ones who thought that this concern was distracting from terrorism.

279 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:16:44pm

re: #275 Slumbering Behemoth

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

280 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:18:02pm

As has been pointed out previously by someone, I can't recall who, what political party do these bills come from?

I certainly won't go back to being a Democrat, but it looks like I'm an Independent for the rest of my life.

281 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:18:39pm

Here we go again with this crap.

282 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:19:10pm

re: #280 Naso Tang

As has been pointed out previously by someone, I can't recall who, what political party do these bills come from?

I certainly won't go back to being a Democrat, but it looks like I'm an Independent for the rest of my life.

Every single one of them is sponsored by Republicans. All of them.

283 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:20:06pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest?

How?

There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so.

That, right there. That's how. A bald faced lie, and you know it.

284 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:21:01pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

You haven't been paying attention, moron. Why do you insult all the people of faith who are here?

The ones who left or were kicked out were trolls, and we do discriminate against trolls just like in the fairy tales.

285 screaming_eagle  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:21:15pm

re: #274 horse

LOL, your screen name is rather fitting. Do you realize your two points are contradicting? Either the subject of my comment was for individuals, or for society. Did you provide both versions to ensure you were at least 50% correct?

To address your second point that is a question; no, most societies in history have collapsed for pressures other than cultural fragmentation.

Your the one that responded to my comment of "are we gonna die" by going into a scociety generalization.

Your arrogance at my screen-name is also telling.

286 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:22:22pm

re: #282 Charles

Every single one of them is sponsored by Republicans. All of them.

There's a specter haunting the GOP: the specter of creationism.

Palin around with idiots will not get you elected anymore.

287 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:22:25pm

re: #282 Charles

Every single one of them is sponsored by Republicans. All of them.

I should have used the sarc tag. You don't think you are forgettable do you?(but then again, you didn't use a sarc either :)

288 Western Chauvinist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:23:18pm

Guess I struck a nerve. I wasn't telling him what to do. Of course he can post whatever he wants. It is still a free country for the moment. I asked "please" because I have enjoyed "lurking" about LGF for years. Especially when Charles is exposing news the MSM has missed or, more likely, gotten wrong.

I do object to the "troll" moniker applied to me as I always assumed it meant a leftist posing as a conservative to sneak "her" way into the discussion. To verify my conservative bona fides, you can check out my blog at westernchauvinist@blogspot.com, which I post to nearly as infrequently as I comment here. Real life gets in the way for a mom with young kids.

But, I object even more strenuously because attacking the messenger is a tactic used by the left, rather than civilized discourse over the point. If you all enjoy the near daily battle against the evil IDers here, by all means have at it. I just wanted to express my opinion that other dangers to the country seem more immediate and relevant to me.

289 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #283 Slumbering Behemoth

A lie?
The "anti creationist" threads are constant and unrelenting. Are my views on the origins of life some sort of threat to you?

290 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:23:30pm

re: #86 jcm

Legislation overcomes thermodynamics!

NET zero energy use in homes is not a flat violation of the laws of physics. The house, you see, receives sunlight, and maybe wind. If the house could run its appliances, heating, and cooling and everything on that solar/wind energy, storing some in a battery for rainy days and for nights, then that house would count as achieving net zero energy use.

If the house is hooked up to the grid, it can feed its power into the grid on sunny days, and draw from the grid on rainy days, just as if it had batteries. That too would count.

Barriers: first, the high price of solar panels. Second, insufficient insulation. Third, energy-intensive appliances.

291 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:23:37pm

re: #116 donk1100

i rarely comment, but read daily. my comments are basied on a b.s. in biology, m.s. science in genetics and a doctor of medicine. i studied Darwin back in the 70's as well as his followers.......his methods were poor, his research wanting and his conclusions were unwarranted. any science student will remember these words because that is what your adviser said about your first thesis.(i was crushed when i heard these words)....evolution is an interesting idea, but it is theory not scientific law. i like theory, it promotes discussion, it spawns ideas, and it allows the young scientist to push the envelope. the other side of this argument are expressing their faith, and they seem just as stubborn as you seem to be. be careful of dogma,,,it usually bites you in the butt one day. we are not the smartist people that will ever live.....dr. d. c. neal,

Based upon your massive misconstrual of what constitutes a theory in empirical science, I most sincerely doubt your claimed credentials. Evolutionary theory began with Darwin, but did not end with it; there have been literally millions of scientific investigations and experiments conducted since Origin of Species was published 150 years ago, and ALL of it supports evolutionary theory, while NO empirical evidence whatsoever contradicts it. And Darwin meticulously and painstakingly collected and collated empirical evidence for his thesis over a period of more than 20 years; much of that catalogued evidence is still viewable in Britain.

Here's how the National Academy of Science defines the meaning of the word 'theory' in empirical science; as anyone with eyes and a brain can clearly see, it is far removed from the connotation of guess or hunch that is found in common discourse:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Sal: No genuine scientist would have expressed the amazingly off-base misconception of what constitutes a scientific theory that you did.

And your argument ignorance falls flat. Just because we do not no everything does not mean that we do not know some things, and one of the things we know is that evolution is a fact, and that evolutionary theory is one of the most empirically grounded theories in all of science, fully as strong as are the theories of gravitation, heliocentrism, relativity and quantum mechanics.

292 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:24:02pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

Would all the people of faith here on LGF just put your hands up to refute this crap!

Hand in the air.

293 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:24:49pm

re: #252 horse

No, I have never watched his show. I haven't watched political TV for over ten years. I have heard his name, but don't really know anything about him. Do you think I would like him?

No.

294 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:25:11pm

re: #289 tunnelrat

Again, if you had any interest in being honest you would know that is about much more than anyone's personally held beliefs.

295 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:26:24pm

re: #239 Salamantis

Empirical science shall continue to be guided by the scientific methods of checkable and replicable evidence, peer review, double-blind experimentation with controls, and the verification and falsification principles, and shall continue to reject the attempts to discredit, corrupt, undermine, subvert and suborn it by forcing religious dogmas into it that continue to issue from the creationist camp.

I wish that were still the case at all levels. At the higher levels it has become very politicized, and it has failed in the methods and responsibilities you summarized above. For some individuals, it has become more about power and wealth than truth.

296 freetoken  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:26:57pm

re: #261 tunnelrat

Is it really that important to you? There are Islamists out to destroy us and you are all concerned about how someone else believes that life originated on this planet? Try to put things into perspective please.

You are expressing a very narrow perspective on life.

Life is more than resisting Islamic extremists.

Life is about what we want to leave our descendants, and leaving a testament of who we've been and what we have accomplished.

297 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:28:08pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

I've been purged? But...I can still post...and I'm a person of deep religious convictions...

Maybe you need to take another look at that statement.

298 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:28:28pm

re: #296 freetoken

And how is ID a threat to that?

299 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:32:29pm

re: #145 Soona'

But that's just it. Global warming is as much a religious teaching as creationism is. There was no real science applied to it. And just as you pointed out about so many starting to turn away from the GW theory, so will education systems turn away from strict creationism. I still think that schools will be given a choice as to what they want to teach. If not, I believe these laws will be overturned quickly once people see the folly.

AGW is empirically testable, and the reason that researchers are abandoning it is because it is failing these tests. Religious dogmas are supernatural, not natural, and metaphysical, not physical, which means they cannot be empirically tests, and thus are not science. And, as I have said before, trying to use AGW to attack evolutionary theory is like trying to use Ron Paul to attack Abraham Lincoln. AGW may be bad science, but it is at least science - which is why it is correctable. Evolutionary theory, otoh, is exemplary science, and creationism/ID isn't empirical science at all, but religious dogma.

300 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:33:25pm

re: #285 screaming_eagle

Your the one that responded to my comment of "are we gonna die" by going into a scociety generalization.

Your arrogance at my screen-name is also telling.

I thought that is what you were originally implying in "all gonna die".

The word horseshit in bold letters looks like screaming. Yes, it was a bit snarky, my apologies. I do understand where your screen name comes from and respect everyone who has served, even legs on a string.

301 freetoken  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:34:21pm

re: #288 Western Chauvinist


But, I object even more strenuously because attacking the messenger is a tactic used by the left, rather than civilized discourse over the point. If you all enjoy the near daily battle against the evil IDers here, by all means have at it. I just wanted to express my opinion that other dangers to the country seem more immediate and relevant to me.

As with tunnelrat, may I suggest you are taking too narrow of a view of life and in particular with what citizens are to be concerned?

Integrity is worth fighting for.

Honesty is worth demanding of others, no matter who those others may be.

Our culture, society, ... world is infused with dishonest and disingenuous people, common folk and intelligentsia alike.

The particular cases in the US currently are many, but among them is a strong movement against knowledge and facts, and more into perception and control of said.

You don't seem to appreciate this: What Dan Rather did to GWB is what the DI does to Darwin. Similar M.O.

It is all dishonesty.

302 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:36:15pm

re: #163 horse

That we may; all story arcs have an eventual ending. I believe we are becoming more and more lost every year, scattered and adrift on uncharted currents. There are better known courses that would lead to progress, but major sections of our society have chosen not to travel them together.

Joining our hands around a common acceptance of empirically demonstrable untruths is not a solution to any societal travails; it could only lead to greater distresses.

303 Western Chauvinist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:41:26pm

I would also like to point out that nearly every attack of me has included the f-bomb. So much for civilized discourse.

304 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:41:34pm

I'm probably going to piss off our GOP hard cases even more soon, because I've been making an effort to research and understand the debate over climate change for the past few months, and I'm seeing a lot of the same Republican dishonesty as I see in the ID debate. I'm not ready to endorse climate change the way the left has, but there are serious problems with the way it's being portrayed by people like James Inhofe.

305 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:44:10pm

re: #299 Salamantis

AGW is empirically testable, and the reason that researchers are abandoning it is because it is failing these tests. Religious dogmas are supernatural, not natural, and metaphysical, not physical, which means they cannot be empirically tests, and thus are not science. And, as I have said before, trying to use AGW to attack evolutionary theory is like trying to use Ron Paul to attack Abraham Lincoln. AGW may be bad science, but it is at least science - which is why it is correctable. Evolutionary theory, otoh, is exemplary science, and creationism/ID isn't empirical science at all, but religious dogma.

Thank you! That is the well summarized construct of the situation I was looking for. They have to provide the substantial supporting scientific evidence required to teach the content, and religious books (from any religion) are not evidence. They may end up blocking evolution being taught, but it is unlikely in the extreme that they can justify teaching creationism or even ID.

306 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:46:22pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

Have you ever thought that maybe it was the other way around?
Namely, that there have been a number of people of faith that have purged themselves of LGF over the last year because they felt threatened by exposure to perspectives held by a large part of society, just not their own.

307 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:46:32pm

re: #296 freetoken

You are expressing a very narrow perspective on life...

Typical of rats in tunnels.

308 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:50:14pm

re: #211 fish

1) The Disco Institute is Full of Wackos
2) Any one that believes in "Young Earth" is a wacko
3) Any one that is against examining possible flaws in ANY Theory has some sort of an agenda.

Remember, when Galileo first suggested that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe, it angered not only the religious authorities but the Scientific leaders of the day.

Newton was scorned before he was accepted.

Is a discussion of possible Intelligent Design any different from a discussion of Einsteins multiverse theories?

It is only when the discussion turns to "Who" or "Why" does it become religious. Any discussion that begins "According to (Insert Sacred text here) this is what happened" does not belong in schools.

Keep the bible out of the classroom. But don't limit discussion of ideas.

Lastly for the record: I do understand that the "Acedemic Freedom" bills are being introduced by people with bad ideas and an agenda.

There is no empirical evidence for the PR propaganda lipstick term 'intelligent design' slapped on the lips of their creationist dogma pig. And Einstein never proposed multiverses.

There is no evolutionary controversy to teach; all there is is a bunch of self-serving creationists falsely claiming that their tiresome and tedious whingeing constitutes one. There has been no flaw in evolutionary theory that has yet been revealed. The theory continues to be refined and elaborated as scientific progress continues, but incomplete is not the same as incorrect, and its central tenets - random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection - have never been contradicted by any empirical evidence whatsoever.

There is no more room in public high school science class for creationist dogmas than there is for flat-earth geocentrism, astrology or alchemy. Because none of them are science.

And the only 'scientists' who opposed Galileo were those who were intimidated by the clerical establishment, and didn't wanna be the parbroiled guest of honor at an inquisitional luau.

309 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:50:48pm

re: #303 Western Chauvinist

I would also like to point out that nearly every attack of me has included the f-bomb. So much for civilized discourse.

So after 29 posts and nearly 2 years of lurking, you've finally realized this is a tough crowd?
Cry me a river.

310 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:51:10pm

re: #306 gman

I would argue that they have been persecuted once or twice daily by these "anti creationist" threads where anybody who believes the Bible is subjected to a nasty beatdown and treated like a knuckledragging rube.
I am not threatened by other peoples views, why are so many of you threatened by mine?

311 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:54:27pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

Oh please! You can't get purged for even being a young-earth creationist. Your ideas on natural history may be ridiculed. That's not an attempt to purge you, nor is it an insult to God or to Christianity. That's life in the hurly-burly of the blogosphere.

I get some flak for insisting that there may well be something to global warming. I deal. I respond with what seem to me to be sound reasons. If they seem ridiculous to others, well, I need to provide better reasons and more evidence next time. If I'm mistaken on a point of fact, I have to admit it and never again use that as a talking point in any argument. If I were to post links that turned out to be the work of charlatans, I'd be warned to avoid basing arguments on those guys. Somebody who persisted in that vein might eventually be invited out. But not for just holding AGW positions.


As to the vast majority of Christians, they have no problem with the scientifically computed age of the earth, or evolution, or cosmic microwave background radiation and its implications.

This fight has been fought before, Galileo vs. the Holy See. The See saw its error eventually. The die-hard Darwin-fightin wing of the faithful is mired in error. That's forgivable; we all make mistakes. What's less pardonable is the repeated deceitful attempts to get Pandas and other dishonest books into the public schools. I don't charge you with being party to that dishonesty, but it's the main tactic of the whole movement. Talking points are demolished in court and resurrected before new audiences as if nothing had happened. People lie, even under oath, if they think it'll advance "the cause". And there's a good deal of, umm, un-christian rancor in evidence. Christians who take the side of science are cursed as heretics and consigned to hell. Children are taunted...children being children, this last is inevitable, but sometimes it seems as if the parents are applauding that.

All these bills are dishonesty in action. Nobody intends that the children shall look into the weaknesses of the case for classifying this or that population of killer whales as a distinct species, or the implications for the "tree of life" that a handful of genetic sequences from viruses have found their way into primate genomes. The intent is that the whole tired nonsensical discredited rubbish about flagella, or the blood clotting cascade, or the bird's wing, being instances of irreducible complexity, shall be aired before an audience too young and too much at the beginning of their studies to have a chance of following the refutation. The effect of this is meant to be that children conclude that their teachers are wrong about evolution, their mainstream textbooks are wrong, and by implication, that the whole system is a tissue of lies from start to finish, on every topic from algebra to zoology.

It's hard enough getting kids enthusiastic about school as it is. Our schools have real faults and failings. But they're not as bad as this picture would paint them, and you don't seem to understand just how bad it will be for the kids and the future of our nation if they come to altogether scorn school. Islamofascism cannot do to us what we would do to ourselves if we let this happen.

312 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:54:47pm

re: #305 horse

Thank you! That is the well summarized construct of the situation I was looking for. They have to provide the substantial supporting scientific evidence required to teach the content, and religious books (from any religion) are not evidence. They may end up blocking evolution being taught, but it is unlikely in the extreme that they can justify teaching creationism or even ID.

They cannot block evolutionary theory from being taught in public high school science classes any more than they can insert creationism there. Evolutionary theory is as scientific as it gets, and is supported by mountains of evidence, so it eminently belongs in public high school science classes, whereas creationism/ID is a religious dogma supported by not a single shred of empirical evidence, so it does NOT belong there.

313 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:55:11pm

re: #310 tunnelrat

I would argue that they have been persecuted once or twice daily by these "anti creationist" threads where anybody who believes the Bible is subjected to a nasty beatdown and treated like a knuckledragging rube.

Back that up with direct links to evidence that prove your point. Can you do that?

314 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:57:02pm

re: #304 Charles

I'm probably going to piss off our GOP hard cases even more soon, because I've been making an effort to research and understand the debate over climate change for the past few months, and I'm seeing a lot of the same Republican dishonesty as I see in the ID debate. I'm not ready to endorse climate change the way the left has, but there are serious problems with the way it's being portrayed by people like James Inhofe.

Then I do hope you have gone through this site.

I have been following it for a couple of years. Over that time he has done a decent job bringing together the key issues around data accuracy/integrity, modeling methodologies, and physical evidence.

When you look at the science, AGW is just not there. There is a definite increase in CO2, but there is not a correlation to global temperatures. Most alarming, there are serious questions about data integrity.

The problem with the GOP is they have started getting on board the AGW train, just as it appears the bridge ahead isn't actually finished.

315 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:59:20pm

re: #313 Slumbering Behemoth

Look at any reply that Salamantis has made to me in the last year.

316 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:00:23pm

re: #223 tunnelrat

Oh God, how dare those creationists even open their mouths on the holy eve of the birthday of the saint Darwin. Us monkey kin should not ever have to
deal with people who believe in a different origin of life.
/sarc I think.......

People are not required to believe in evolutionary theory; they can come to an acknowledgement of its soundness and validity simply by objectively and dispassionately perusing the massive empirical evidence in support of it. Creationism/ID, otoh, MUST be believed in by their adherents, as they lack recourse to even a single shred of credible empirical evidence supporting such a religious dogma (and yes, ID is creationism dressed up in pseudoscientific clothes).

317 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:02:40pm

re: #315 tunnelrat

Again, point directly to some proof for that. If you cannot do so, then one can only conclude you are a liar.

318 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:03:52pm

re: #304 Charles

Yes, there is a serious amount of keech (Scottish word) coming out of the hardcore anti-AGW camp, and it has a very similar smell to what we've seen coming out of the ID camp and it needs to be exposed for what it is. You are certainly right that some folks aren't going to be happy though:

I predict a riot

319 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:04:25pm

re: #224 horse

That is a nice anti-anti-evolution site. Unfortunately, I found the postings a little emotionally driven and without much direct evidence of what the anti-evolutionary side has actually said and documented.
Like this recent posting.

I was just hoping the people representing this threat of taking the teaching of evolution out of the schools had testified to what they really believe and intend. I am reading a lot of conjecture of their belief and intent, just not from them.

The Wedge Document was written by Philip Johnson, a major honcho in the Discovery Institute, and lays out their plots and plans to subvert empirical science and replace it with theology. The paper was never meant for public consumption, and they were sorely distressed when the template for their cynical scheme was leaked.

320 gman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:04:27pm

re: #310 tunnelrat

I would argue that they have been persecuted once or twice daily by these "anti creationist" threads where anybody who believes the Bible is subjected to a nasty beatdown and treated like a knuckledragging rube.
I am not threatened by other peoples views, why are so many of you threatened by mine?

I'm tired of the whining. Get used to hearing perspectives other than your own. If you want to hear the exact same thoughts you already have, then this is not the place. I'm a person of faith and I feel that my faith has grown since I started posting here. I've been exposed to ideas that have challenged my way of thinking about the world and that is a healthy state of affairs. It is either that or I go back to my previous snowglobe insulated echo chamber state prior to LGF. You can choose to learn or stagnate, but it's always your choice.

321 Western Chauvinist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:05:15pm

re: #314 horse

I second that. Yes, Charles, please be careful in addressing the AGW debate. If you haven't found it already, the essential skeptic's site is Anthony Watts (Best Science Blog 2008) at Watts Up With That?

322 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:05:58pm

re: #312 Salamantis

They cannot block evolutionary theory from being taught in public high school science classes any more than they can insert creationism there. Evolutionary theory is as scientific as it gets, and is supported by mountains of evidence, so it eminently belongs in public high school science classes, whereas creationism/ID is a religious dogma supported by not a single shred of empirical evidence, so it does NOT belong there.

Yes, I get that. The impression from all these posts is there is some kind of tidal wave effort to replace evolution with creationism or ID.

I was just trying to logically envision what an actual worse case scenario might look like if they were successful. It would seem there is no way creationism or ID can get in the classroom based on the logical argument above. There may be a chance of them getting evolution removed, but even that is unlikely.

323 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #317 Slumbering Behemoth

OK wise guy, look at post #316 for example. A pseudo-intellectual telling me that I am an idiot for not thinking the same way as him/her. It happens daily on this blog and I do not understand why. Can't we just allow other people to hold different beliefs on the origins of life? I would think that there are far more serious threats to our way of life....

324 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:09:13pm

re: #131 jaunte

The 'other side of this argument' has done very little work in science to support the demand that their ideas be treated equally with current evolutionary biology. Most of the effort has been PR, legal, and political.

ID is scientific affirmative action for the right.

325 freetoken  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:09:44pm

re: #304 Charles

I'm probably going to piss off our GOP hard cases even more soon,[...]

You will probably get quite a bit of heat (pun intended).

It really is all about integrity, I believe.

That there are folk like Inhofe who will print anything for the sake of ideology.

Given that the #1 vote getter for best science blog on the net also happens to be a blog that is more ideology than science, you're going to face an up hill battle (not that such a thing would be new to you.)

There are some conservative bloggers such as Jim Manzi who try to understand the science and present it as such, but those voices are few.

There is a correlation between the ID movement and the anti-AGW activists... though by no means is such a correlation strong enough to demand equivalence.

It just so happens that one of the scientists whom leading AGW deniers like to quote is also very pro ID, Roy Spencer.

Guilt by association is a fallacy of course, when one is trying to determine the truthfulness of a proposition. However, when looking at the m.o. of people one can certainly see the connection.

Your biggest challenge, I think, will be in convincing people who are convinced that the scientists are somehow manipulating the data. Since newer data collection approaches are continually being invented, scientists go back and correct/re-assess old data. This has led some (you've already had one entry just above this one) critics to contend that the data is not to be trusted. It is a false claim and one the deniers will not back up by going to court and challenging the scientific community... because as with ID and evolution, the deniers really don't have a good grasp of the process.

Good luck.

326 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:12:27pm

re: #323 tunnelrat

Oh boo-hoo. Did the nasty man disagree with you and refute your bs? Soooo unfair.

327 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:14:25pm

re: #261 tunnelrat

Is it really that important to you? There are Islamists out to destroy us and you are all concerned about how someone else believes that life originated on this planet? Try to put things into perspective please.

The subversion of US public high school science education poses a clear and present danger to our country, our culture, and our way of life. We need competent bioscientists for both military purposes (to develop defences against bioengineered plagues) and for economic purposes (to innovate the future products and services upon which our future export trade will depend).

Plus, the Disco Institute creationists are connected with the Islamocreationists of Harun Yahya. And, as has already been pointed out, evolutionary theory is not about life's terrestrial beginnings (that would be origins of life theory), but about what happens when populations of organisms possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity are confronted by selecting surrounding ecologies, complete with environmental challenges and opportunities.

328 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:15:33pm

re: #326 Jimmah

Hey Jimmah, you'r missing the point buddy. Go back to the peanut farm.

329 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:16:41pm

re: #211 fish

Is a discussion of possible Intelligent Design any different from a discussion of Einsteins multiverse theories?

ID is nothing but a facade to hide creationism. Good enough for you?

330 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:17:57pm

re: #265 WitchDoctor

It's true, I have expressed dissatisfaction with the number of ID threads. Obviously most on here are happy with it. Done bitching about it, there are too many other important (and valuable) things covered/exposed on this blog for me to get too worked about this little thing.

Which is not to say I appreciate the extremely weak "good bye" post, btw, but it's just not worth getting worked up over. :)

I guess your failure to perceive the national security threat posed by the subverting of US public high school science education by religious dogmatists, and the value to our way of life of preventing this from happening, must be your personal myopia. Few here share your blind spot, and for good and sufficient reason.

331 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:18:28pm

re: #323 tunnelrat

OK wise guy, look at post #316 for example.

Perhaps you can quote the part of that post "where anybody who believes the Bible is subjected to a nasty beatdown and treated like a knuckledragging rube."


A pseudo-intellectual telling me that I am an idiot for not thinking the same way as him/her. It happens daily on this blog and I do not understand why.

Again, if you cannot provide proof for such a claim you will be seen as a liar.

Can't we just allow other people to hold different beliefs on the origins of life?

Tell that to the DI people, who want to use the force of government to push their religious beliefs on other people's children in public school, while dishonestly calling it science.

Of course, you know full well this is about more than just a person's personally held beliefs, and are dishonestly attempting to frame the debate as an attack on people of faith.


I would think that there are far more serious threats to our way of life....

In other words, pay no mind the bleeding wound on your arm because you run a greater risk of breaking your leg.

332 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:19:50pm

re: #261 tunnelrat

Is it really that important to you? There are Islamists out to destroy us and you are all concerned about how someone else believes that life originated on this planet? Try to put things into perspective please.

It's our right as parents, so you're damn straight it's important to me!

And the islamists are working with these American creationists.

333 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:21:01pm

re: #328 tunnelrat

The point seems to be that you are whining about being disagreed with, and you are blatantly lying, claiming that they are calling you an idiot when one only has to look at the post a few centimeters away to see that they are doing no such thing. You seem to be more used to posting in an environment where people dont call you on your obvious bullshit; perhaps you should go back there.

334 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:22:51pm

re: #289 tunnelrat

Are my views on the origins of life some sort of threat to you?

Not until you subvert the rights of parents and undermine the Constitution.

335 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:23:32pm

re: #274 horse

A culture is primordially egocentric and believes that the universe is somehow magically ordered for its benefit. Such beliefs are, to some degree, necessary for the perpetuation of the culture, but many are not sufficient. This is why many cultures die a-borning for lack of the belief's production of the Camusian byproducts of human dignity, industry and community. The cultures which survive their birth, however, eventually come into contact with "other" cultures. Whether they subsume, are subsumed by, or coexist with the other(s), intercultural socialization begins. This process results in the realization that the belief system is not a given, but must be justified in relation to alternative beliefs which perform the same perpetuating functions for their cultures. (In the same manner, "laws" of quantum mechanics mutually justify each other without any one of them occupying a central or fundamental position.) Also, such belief systems and their empirically testable consequences must agree with the ever-expanding perceptions of the world. This imperative is akin to both Kant's dictum that concepts must be grounded in percepts, and Merleau-Ponty's view of reality as inter-subjective. Together, these two necessities provoke the evolution of the bridge between individual and societal perceptions. The foregoing also explains both T. S. Eliot's observation that culture and religion are symbiotic and Toynbee's contention that advancing cultures are accompanied by successively more complex belief systems, this last to accommodate successively more inclusive and detailed perceptions.

However, the belief system ultimately fails, because of both its absolutist dogmatism and the inherent inability of animistic-mystical belief systems to keep pace with demythologizing explanations proffered by the dialectic of scientific progress and technical advances. In other words, the expansion of scientific knowledge and technical efficacy within a culture proceed according to an involution-evolution multicycle model of periodicity 2. Models to account for reality first expand to cover the range of our perceptions; they then concentrate upon details. However, the greater mastery of the material world that efficacious models allows permits the technological augmentation of perceptions and actions, which, when applied to scientific experimentation, leads to the arising of perceptions that cannot be accounted for within the axiomatic systems used to construct the models. A paradigmatic advance is then made which, while accounting for the stubborn perceptions, expands our experimental range beyond its original range, allowing new stubborn perceptions to arise, while the previous models are subsumed as special cases, and the process repeats.

According to Stephen Pepper, animistic world hypotheses fail due to inadequate precision (common-sense fails). They tend to anthropomorphize magical presence into authoritarian spirit, which is crystallized into infallible, but, alas, all-too-fallible, authority. This authority breaks down under successively more central, supportable and precise criticism. Also, mystical world hypotheses fail due to a lack of scope. Their view originates with the acceptance of a "central fact". The entire universe is interpreted, whether it fits or not, as absorbed within this "fact". Where this absorption is implausible, the offending contradictory observations are denounced as unreal. The adherents of such "facts" are emotional and reductionistic. They believe themselves to be the vessels through which the "true fact" must be promulgated according to a dogma of certainty.

to be continued...

336 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:23:46pm

Both "certainty" and "infallibility" are illusions produced by inadequate world-views. What opposes them is useful truth. The pragmatists argue that the a priori of truth is utility and the existentialists argue that the a priori of utility is truth. The precedence chosen depends upon the referential frame of the chooser, and we tend to view truth and utility as co-primordial, symbiotic and mutually grounding. However, when useful truth unmasks, by counterexample of the world hypotheses' conclusions, the fallibility and uncertainty of their premises, these premises inevitably crumble. Our beliefs have, for better or worse, chosen us long enough; it is now time to reasonably choose our beliefs to avoid such contradiction. Culture has never matured before in world history; we can end all hope of its maturation in the future or ourselves be the first culture that successfully matures.

337 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:23:58pm

Funny fish, talking horses, and bellicose rodents.

Can we open a petting zoo?

338 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:24:52pm

re: #310 tunnelrat

I would argue that they have been persecuted once or twice daily by these "anti creationist" threads where anybody who believes the Bible is subjected to a nasty beatdown and treated like a knuckledragging rube.
I am not threatened by other peoples views, why are so many of you threatened by mine?

You should flatter yourself somewhere else.

339 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:26:21pm

re: #331 Slumbering Behemoth

Tell that to the DI people, who want to use the force of government to push their religious beliefs on other people's children in public school, while dishonestly calling it science.

How is providing an alternative theory a threat to western civilization?

Of course, you know full well this is about more than just a person's personally held beliefs, and are dishonestly attempting to frame the debate as an attack on people of faith.

It is an attack on people of faith. It plays out here daily on the various anti-creationist threads which hammer anybody who disagrees with the Charles/Darwin version of history.

In other words, pay no mind the bleeding wound on your arm because you run a greater risk of breaking your leg.

Huh?

340 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:26:24pm

re: #337 Cato the Elder

Funny fish, talking horses, and bellicose rodents.

Can we open a petting zoo?

It's like 'The Incredible Journey' gone seriously wrong.

341 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:29:05pm

re: #339 tunnelrat

How is providing an alternative theory a threat to western civilization?

Oh it's a theory now is it? Please state that theory, because I've never seen it before. All I've seen before on this topic are a collection of failed claims to the effect that evolution is wrong.

342 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:29:12pm

re: #279 tunnelrat

How am I being dishonest? There has been a marked move towards purging people of faith from LGF for the last year or so. Why is that? We can all agree on the threats of Islamists, socialism, and such, but why must LGF purge itself of people who believe the Bible?

Actually, umm, no. Most folks here are Judeo-Christians, but they do not engage in creationist meltdowns, blowups and flameouts. And most Judeo-Christians (including 1.6 billion members of the Roman Catholic Church) accept evolutionary theory as valid, solid and sound empirical science.

343 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:29:18pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

And the islamists are working with these American creationists.


You have got to be kidding me.

344 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:30:21pm

re: #325 freetoken


Your biggest challenge, I think, will be in convincing people who are convinced that the scientists are somehow manipulating the data. Since newer data collection approaches are continually being invented, scientists go back and correct/re-assess old data. This has led some (you've already had one entry just above this one) critics to contend that the data is not to be trusted. It is a false claim and one the deniers will not back up by going to court and challenging the scientific community... because as with ID and evolution, the deniers really don't have a good grasp of the process.

That is not it at all. The issue with data integrity is in the surface measuring stations themselves. They have been around for a hundred years. What was a temp station in a field is now asphalt and near an industrial air outlet; surprise, it shows a rising trend. A few miles away is a temp station that is still in a neutral location; it shows no rising trend. You can not get more physical science than the source of measurement.

So far the survey of surface temp stations shows over 69% of them have nearby heating sources that are likely to have a greater than 2+ degree C error in measurements.

345 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:31:33pm

re: #341 Jimmah

Oh it's a theory now is it? Please state that theory, because I've never seen it before. All I've seen before on this topic are a collection of failed claims to the effect that evolution is wrong.

Yes, I'd like to see a theory of Intelligent Design actually stated, instead of danced around.

346 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:33:38pm

re: #345 jaunte

I waited for it all through 'Expelled' but nope - not there either. Maybe tunnel rat's got it.

347 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:05pm

re: #288 Western Chauvinist

Guess I struck a nerve. I wasn't telling him what to do. Of course he can post whatever he wants. It is still a free country for the moment. I asked "please" because I have enjoyed "lurking" about LGF for years. Especially when Charles is exposing news the MSM has missed or, more likely, gotten wrong.

I do object to the "troll" moniker applied to me as I always assumed it meant a leftist posing as a conservative to sneak "her" way into the discussion. To verify my conservative bona fides, you can check out my blog at westernchauvinist@blogspot.com, which I post to nearly as infrequently as I comment here. Real life gets in the way for a mom with young kids.

But, I object even more strenuously because attacking the messenger is a tactic used by the left, rather than civilized discourse over the point. If you all enjoy the near daily battle against the evil IDers here, by all means have at it. I just wanted to express my opinion that other dangers to the country seem more immediate and relevant to me.

That is because you are for some reason blinded to the real and substantial threats posed to our national security, both militarily and economically, by a religiously dogmatic subversion of US public high school science education.

And creationist and leftist trolls are both trolls; the difference between them is adjectival, not essential.

348 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:53pm

re: #339 tunnelrat

It is an attack on people of faith. It plays out here daily on the various anti-creationist threads which hammer anybody who disagrees with the Charles/Darwin version of history.

Only Biblical literalists feel threatened by this- the vast majority of LGFers are people of faith and they disagree with your take. Actually- many of us see ID as an attack on our faith, and our rights to Free Exercise. It is not the role of public schools to take away the rights of parents in teaching kids about a religious notion of literal 6 day creation.

It is not the role of schools to teach anything than science in a science classroom. And ID is not science. They have no evidence- they don't even have a written hypothesis that's testable and falsifiable. They have nothing but a slick PR campaign and lots of money. That's it. The handful of hypotheses they have proposed have been utterly debunked. They got nothing.

349 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:35:37pm

re: #337 Cato the Elder

Funny fish, talking horses, and bellicose rodents.

Can we open a petting zoo?

As long as you don't destroy us like you did Carthage.

350 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:36:28pm

re: #289 tunnelrat

A lie?
The "anti creationist" threads are constant and unrelenting. Are my views on the origins of life some sort of threat to you?

Gratuitously and illegitimately shoehorning creationism into public high school science classes, undermining US national security in the process by hamstringing US global military and economic competitiveness, is a clear and present danger to all Americans.

351 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:36:36pm

re: #343 tunnelrat

You have got to be kidding me.

No- I'm not kidding at all. Please see:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And the kicker:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

352 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:37:42pm

re: #346 Jimmah

Hey Jimmah, I don't have all the answers either. Nor do you. It is a matter of faith. Am just tired of being hammered on daily for my beliefs. We agree on many things, but why must lizards ostracize one another for things that they cannot prove.

353 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:38:11pm

re: #339 tunnelrat

It is an attack on people of faith. It plays out here daily on the various anti-creationist threads which hammer anybody who disagrees with the Charles/Darwin version of history.

It is not an attack on people of faith. If you believe in the literal truth of every biblical statement, that's just fine.

"People of faith" who want to cram their beliefs down our children's throats under the guise of "academic freedom" should be attacked. There is a difference. Personal belief on the one hand and doctrinaire educational sabotage on the other. Get it?

There is a reason why religious education is banned from public schools. Whose religion are you going to teach? Who gets equal time? Baptists, Pentacostals, Pre-Millennarian Dispensationalists, but not Catholics, Lutherans or Muslims? What about Jews?

One mark of a democratic society is that some things are left as the exclusive purview of parents and families. Religious education is one such. If that doesn't satisfy you, there are private religious schools.

People of (whatever) faith do not have the right to see their beliefs supported in the free marketplace of ideas, using taxpayer money. ID is the camel's nose under the tent. Grasp the nettle firmly; it won't hurt so much if you do.

354 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:38:39pm

Maybe it's the wine, but I can't take assholes like the rat tonight. Calling it in early.

Goodnight.

355 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:39:33pm

re: #295 horse

I wish that were still the case at all levels. At the higher levels it has become very politicized, and it has failed in the methods and responsibilities you summarized above. For some individuals, it has become more about power and wealth than truth.

And those individuals happen to be both esconced in the Disco Institute and economically supportive of its endeavors to destroy empirical science and install dogmatic theology in its place.

356 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:39:57pm

re: #350 Salamantis

undermining US national security in the process by hamstringing US global military and economic competitiveness, is a clear and present danger to all Americans.

What the hell are you talking about?

357 freetoken  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:10pm

re: #344 horse

The theory of AGW is not based upon surface temperature readings, from any site.

Temperature compilations (whether GISS or Hadley Center) are used to empirically derive what the climate sensitivity is to a standard measurement of atmospheric composition. In other words, to answer the question: What will be the temperature rise after 100 years if we double the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere?.... one can try to do this by matching temperatures with measured atmospheric composition.

But again, the idea that {changing the atmospheric composition will cause a change in the Earth's mean temperature} is not based upon temperature measurements at weather sites.

358 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:25pm

re: #354 Naso Tang

Good night.

359 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:58pm

re: #352 tunnelrat

Hey Jimmah, I don't have all the answers either. Nor do you. It is a matter of faith. Am just tired of being hammered on daily for my beliefs. We agree on many things, but why must lizards ostracize one another for things that they cannot prove.

The only thing getting hammered on here is the subversion of parental rights and the Constitution. Do you want science classes teaching your kids about islamic creation?

360 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:41:16pm

re: #298 tunnelrat

And how is ID a threat to that?

See my #327.

361 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:42:04pm

re: #352 tunnelrat

You aren't being hammered for your beliefs. You are being hammered for supporting moves to have your personal beliefs portrayed as facts or 'rival scientific theories' in the teaching of other peoples children who do not share those beliefs and who deserve a decent education.

362 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:43:10pm

re: #356 tunnelrat

undermining US national security in the process by hamstringing US global military and economic competitiveness, is a clear and present danger to all Americans.

What the hell are you talking about?

There will be consequences to our military, our medical fields, our space and technology programs, etc. in the future if we undermine our science education today.

363 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:44:14pm

re: #361 Jimmah

Perhaps my children do not believe in evolution. How is that different?

364 freetoken  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:45:18pm

Just to clarify my previous post... temperature measurements can be used for more than just the application I stated... and most of those temperature measurements that are important may well be from paleoclimate data, not current data... but the point remains, the supposed errors in weather collection data sites are not anywhere near as important to AGW theories as the deniers would claim.

365 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:45:32pm

re: #352 tunnelrat

Hey Jimmah, I don't have all the answers either. Nor do you. It is a matter of faith. Am just tired of being hammered on daily for my beliefs. We agree on many things, but why must lizards ostracize one another for things that they cannot prove.

You've been around here since May '05. Your total posts as I write this = 149. How are you being hammered? You're welcome to your beliefs. But if you tell the host what to post, or have a meltdown because not everybody respects your beliefs, you'll be commenting somewhere else. What's so hard to understand about that?

Demanding respect for one's beliefs is a Muslim thing, anyway. Real Christians can take it.

366 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:09pm

re: #310 tunnelrat

I would argue that they have been persecuted once or twice daily by these "anti creationist" threads where anybody who believes the Bible is subjected to a nasty beatdown and treated like a knuckledragging rube.
I am not threatened by other peoples views, why are so many of you threatened by mine?

So you feel threatened by the discussion of new empirical knowledge issuing from the sciences? Or is it that you feel threatened by the public exposure of the creationist stealth anti-science agenda?

This is, of course, America, and you are free to embrace empirically demonstrable untruths (for instance, that false contentions that the universe is a few thousand years old and that all the millions of existent and extinct species were created independently and as is). What you are NOT free to do is to demand that other peoples' kids be forcible indoctinated in your pet religious dogmas in public high school science class.

367 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:36pm

re: #363 tunnelrat

They don't have to accept evolution! No one is being forced to accept evolution, but it is science and it should be taught in science classes. So long as your kids can pass a test on the subject, they are free to disregard the theory all they want.

Creationists, on the other hand, are insisting that their position must be accepted or we'll all burn in hell.

See the difference?

368 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:48:13pm

I started writing a post responding to David Klinghoffer's three-ring circus attacking me:

[Link: www.evolutionnews.org...]

Then I checked our stats for his posts, and realized that by debating this deluded person, I'd only be driving traffic to the Discovery Institute blog. So far today, we have 35 hits from the DI site.

And I realized why most genuine scientists have concluded that debating these people is a complete waste of time. They lie without shame, because they know that refuting the lies will send their opponents on wild goose chases, and waste massive amounts of time and energy.

Debating these luddites only gives them publicity they don't deserve. It's the creationist hamster wheel, and I don't feel like climbing in.

369 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:48:57pm

re: #335 Salamantis

Sure thing Mr. Dees.

370 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:49:23pm

re: #363 tunnelrat

Evolution is not a matter of religious belief. It's a matter of learning what science teaches. As far as private beliefs are concerned - they are just that - private. As for ID - how can you promote the teaching of a theory when you don't even know what it is? You can't even state it. I'll tell you why neither you nor anyone else can - it doesn't exist. There is no theory of intelligent design.

371 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:49:49pm

re: #315 tunnelrat

Look at any reply that Salamantis has made to me in the last year.

Yeah, I'm looking. I see false dogmatic contentions refuted by credible empirical evidence.

372 Spiny Norman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:00pm

re: #325 freetoken

The biggest problem you AGW ::cough:: excuse me, Man-Made Climate Change promoters have is that your public faces are two of the biggest political-agenda-driven mountebanks on the planet: Al Gore and James Hansen.

Are the 650 dissenting climate scientists who publically criticized the politicization of science and media hysteria in promoting AGW/Climate Change at the recent conference in Poznan, somehow equivalent to the Disco Institute?

By the way, nice politically loaded phrase you chose to use: is "AGW denier" anything like "Holocaust denier"?

373 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:01pm

re: #365 Cato the Elder

I'm am not demanding respect for my beliefs, just the right to them. How are they a threat to national security, as Salamantis stated in post # 350?
Get a grip people! I believe in the biblical version of creation but that does not mean that you are somehow in danger.

374 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:52:12pm

re: #373 tunnelrat

Is "the biblical version of creation" what you would like to have taught in science classes rather than evolutionary theory?

375 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:52:39pm

re: #322 horse

Yes, I get that. The impression from all these posts is there is some kind of tidal wave effort to replace evolution with creationism or ID.

I was just trying to logically envision what an actual worse case scenario might look like if they were successful. It would seem there is no way creationism or ID can get in the classroom based on the logical argument above. There may be a chance of them getting evolution removed, but even that is unlikely.

There are currently ongoing efforts to shoehorn creationism poorly disguised as pseudoscience under the propagana PR ID label in several states simultaneously; that appears pretty tsunamic to me.

376 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:53:21pm

re: #363 tunnelrat

Perhaps my children do not believe in evolution. How is that different?

If your children do not "believe" in evolution, it's because you exercised your perfect right to fill their little heads with guff. No one is interfering with that, though some might think it a shame.

You can't keep 'em out of science class and have 'em graduate. But you can tell them what they learn there is against God. Again, your perfect right.

You do not have the right to tell science teachers to stop teaching science, nor to insist that your religious beliefs be given equal time in science class. Capisce?

377 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:30pm

re: #373 tunnelrat

Who is stopping you from posting your beliefs or even espousing them?

You have the right in this country to subscribe to whatever religious belief you want, but you do not have the right to silence critics of your beliefs, nor do you have the right to use the public schools as a vehicle to indoctrinate other people's children into agree with your beliefs.

378 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:41pm

re: #374 jaunte

My point exactly. Since neither can be proven I would like to see them both taught. Sort of a "fairness doctorine" concept

379 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:55:31pm

re: #378 tunnelrat

Evolution has been proven- over and over and over again.

380 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:22pm

re: #379 Sharmuta

Oh it has?

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:24pm

re: #52 Soona'

Hypothetially. If given a choice, I'd rather give schools the choice to teach creationism/Darwinism than the global warming bullshit they have to teach now.

I just checked the California science standards, and all I can find implying that teacher must teach 'global warming bullshit' is this:

c. Students know the location of the ozone layer in the upper atmosphere, its role in absorbing ultraviolet radiation, and the way in which this layer varies both naturally and in response to human activities.

d. Students know how computer models are used to predict the effects of the increase in greenhouse gases on climate for the planet as a whole and for specific regions.

Do you object to these goals? Both of them are high school level, there is substantial support for evolution, but no other mention of man-made climate change anywhere in the document.

Does your state have standards that require more politically skewed lessons?

382 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:38pm

re: #378 tunnelrat

How do you square the 'fairness doctrine' of the First Amendment with the number of religious creation stories that would have the right to be heard in science class? There are many more than the one in the Bible.

383 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:38pm

re: #380 tunnelrat

Yes- it has.

384 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:42pm

re: #368 Charles

...Debating these luddites only gives them publicity they don't deserve. It's the creationist hamster wheel, and I don't feel like climbing in.

Right. And on that note, I'm going to stop arguing in circles with various creatures here and call it a night.

Night!

385 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:57:01pm

re: #382 jaunte

How do you square the 'fairness doctrine' of the First Amendment with the number of religious creation stories that would have the right to be heard in science class? There are many more than the one two in the Bible.

FIFY

386 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:58:05pm

re: #323 tunnelrat

OK wise guy, look at post #316 for example. A pseudo-intellectual telling me that I am an idiot for not thinking the same way as him/her. It happens daily on this blog and I do not understand why. Can't we just allow other people to hold different beliefs on the origins of life? I would think that there are far more serious threats to our way of life....

I simply told you that ID/Creationism must be believed in by its adherents, since, in the absence of any empirical evidence whatsoever for its dogmatic contentions, it cannot be known, while evolutionary theory may indeed be accepted as knowledge based upon oceans of empirical evidence. Them's the facts when it comes to brass tacks.

And the assault upon public high school science education by religious dogmatists constatutes a genuine hazard to US national security, by threatening to hamstring our bioscience capabilities in both the military and the economic arenas.

387 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:00:05pm

re: #373 tunnelrat

I'm am not demanding respect for my beliefs, just the right to them. How are they a threat to national security, as Salamantis stated in post # 350?
Get a grip people! I believe in the biblical version of creation but that does not mean that you are somehow in danger.

Once again, for slow learners:

No.

One.

Is.

Denying.

Your.

Right.

To.

Believe.

Anything.

You.

Please.

388 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:00:22pm

re: #328 tunnelrat

Hey Jimmah, you'r missing the point buddy. Go back to the peanut farm.

I find it exceedingly ironic when those who whine about imagined attacks upon themselves turn around and make actual attacks upon others - and gratuitous ad hominem attacks, at that.

389 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:02:25pm

No answer yet...

390 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:02:46pm

OK, I'm through with these ID posts on LGF. Am tired of being argued with and insulted for believing the biblical version of the origins of life.
You people may have come from monkeys, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve.

391 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:47pm

re: #390 tunnelrat

Do you have an answer for the last question I asked?
How do you square the 'fairness doctrine' of the First Amendment with the number of religious creation stories that would have the right to be heard in science class? There are many more than those in the Bible.

392 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:06:35pm

Not a believer in the Constitution, apparently.

393 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:08:19pm

re: #357 freetoken

The data from the surface stations are direct inputs into the NCDC and are what is used in reporting and tracking actuals on the ground. There are also measurements taken at sea, in the air and from orbit. It is this data that is charted and displayed to show trends. It is this data that validates accuracy of projections. It is this data that shows we have not increased in avg temps for over 10 years. It is this data that shows we have risen less than 0.5 degrees over the last 100 years, through several up and down cycles.

Yes, they take into consideration many variables in modeling climate temps. But a model is useless if it can not provide testable output. So far their modeling has not been accurate. Even some of their key assumptions like high level cloud formation has been shown to be wrong, and results in significant differences in model output when corrected. You can model all you want, but eventually you have to come back to the data and actual observations to validate it.

It would be liking trying to model ID, but ignoring the actual fossil records and DNA of plants and animals that actually prove something else.

394 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:35pm

re: #392 jaunte

Not a believer in the Constitution, apparently.

A lot of the more fundamentalist creationists groups aren't. It's that nasty First Amendment and it's implications.

395 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:11:34pm

re: #339 tunnelrat

How is providing an alternative theory a threat to western civilization?

Creationism/ID isn't an alternative scientific theory; it is a religious dogma failing to faske it as a scientific theory. Theories in science are supported by empirical evidence; evolutionary theory has such support in spades, while ID lacks a single shred of it.

It is an attack on people of faith. It plays out here daily on the various anti-creationist threads which hammer anybody who disagrees with the Charles/Darwin version of history.

People are free to believe whatever religious dogmas they wish to in America; what they are NOT free to do is coerce the indoctrination of other peoples' children in their pet religious dogmas in public high school science class. To object to such pedagogical abuse is no more an attack upon people of faith than an objection against the religiously based right that Islamofascists assert to convert, enslave or kill all infidels. WEe will NOT stand silently still while Genesis Literalists strive to morph the US public school system into their personal own set of sectarian madrassas.

396 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:11:56pm

re: #375 Salamantis

There are currently ongoing efforts to shoehorn creationism poorly disguised as pseudoscience under the propagana PR ID label in several states simultaneously; that appears pretty tsunamic to me.

I understand a little better now, thanks for your patience.

At first, I did not consider it tsunamic, but I can see how it could be and will be paying much closer attention to it.

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:12:53pm

re: #363 tunnelrat

Perhaps my children do not believe in evolution. How is that different?

Still doesn't change the scientific evidence.

398 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:08pm

re: #390 tunnelrat

OK, I'm through with these ID posts on LGF. Am tired of being argued with and insulted for believing the biblical version of the origins of life.
You people may have come from monkeys, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve.

That's not what you're being argued with about. Your personal beliefs are not the issue.

Since you are patently incapable of ramming that simple thought into your thick primate skull, you had perhaps really better stay away from these threads. You're fast approaching flameout as it is.

And congratulations on your family tree. Mine only goes back a few generations and then disappears in the mists of time. I don't pretend to know any names beyond that.

Sheesh, the Bible is not a book. It's a library. Why can't people see that some parts are mythical, poetic and allusive? Are you this literal when you read the newspaper?

Give me a yeshiva-bocher with too much Midrash, Gemarra and Talmud any day over these literalistic buffoons. At least the yeshiva-bocher is familiar with interpretation.

Did I just disrespect your beliefs? Yep! Deal with it.

I did not take them away from you.

399 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:12pm

re: #390 tunnelrat

See 387. And everyone else's posts too for that matter.

400 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:21pm

re: #343 tunnelrat

You have got to be kidding me.

Nope. Harun Yahya and the Disco Institute have indeed been cooperating, as several articles that have been posted here conclusively demonstrate.

401 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:42pm

re: #394 Sharmuta

A lot of the more fundamentalist creationists groups aren't. It's that nasty First Amendment and it's implications.

Feeling 'hammered' and 'insulted' by disagreement would tend to make someone only a fair weather supporter of free speech.

402 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:49pm

re: #391 jaunte
I am only aware of one record of creation in the Bible, dude.
I am only asking that evolution not be taught as a "fact" since it cannot be proven. I know Salamantis will say that there is empirical evidence and so forth, but the FACT is that it CANNOT be proven. Nobody has witnessed it, and so it is only a theory. I would expect that the theory of creationism would get the same emphasis.

403 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:56pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

Maybe I was unclear. The Constitution requires that we treat all religious creation myths equally. If one is taught in science class, they all must be.

404 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:42pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

There are two accounts of creation. But perhaps you can answer something for me. Which of the 4 Passions should I read literally as there are discrepancies in the 4 accounts?

405 Spiny Norman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:17:07pm
only a theory

Here we go again...

406 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:18:11pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

Evolution has been witnessed. In a science lab, and it was even repeated.

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:18:15pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

I am only aware of one record of creation in the Bible, dude.
I am only asking that evolution not be taught as a "fact" since it cannot be proven. I know Salamantis will say that there is empirical evidence and so forth, but the FACT is that it CANNOT be proven. Nobody has witnessed it, and so it is only a theory. I would expect that the theory of creationism would get the same emphasis.

You misunderstood. If we teach Genesis, we must teach other creation stories, from other sacred texts. Are you comfortable with that?

Furthermore, are you truly comfortable with the idea of having Genesis taught with the emphatic rider that it is only a theory? How about if the children are taught flaws in both theories? I would expect that a well-prepared science teacher would emphasize the apparent textual flaws in Genesis which indicate at least two original sources for the material.

408 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:02pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

Nobody's witnessed the molten core of the earth, it's only a theory. (I mean GoD could be making that lava just a couple miles down and the core of the earth is really an iceball...)
Nobody's seen a meteor hit the moon, it's only a theory.
Nobody's been to Pluto, it's only a theory that it really exists
Fire cant' melt steel....


//// argggg

409 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:27pm

re: #390 tunnelrat

OK, I'm through with these ID posts on LGF. Am tired of being argued with and insulted for believing the biblical version of the origins of life.
You people may have come from monkeys, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve.

This visceral revulsion at being linked to other members of the primate family is behind so much of the anti-evolution crowd. I don't get it. Why do you hate our closest animal relatives?

I think it's a wonderful, transcendent thing to realize that all the species on this planet are linked by a powerful force we're beginning to understand - an understanding that has led to medical and scientific breakthroughs that previous generations of human beings could not even have imagined. Breakthroughs that would have seemed like magic only a century ago.

It's a tragedy that so many people in this country look at this amazing achievement, and think: "I didn't come from no monkey."

410 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:31pm

I'm looking forward to the Scientology view of creation being taught as science. The kids might even accept it more because it has "science" in the name.

411 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:25pm

re: #352 tunnelrat

Hey Jimmah, I don't have all the answers either. Nor do you. It is a matter of faith. Am just tired of being hammered on daily for my beliefs. We agree on many things, but why must lizards ostracize one another for things that they cannot prove.

Artifactual retroviral DNA evidence conclusively demonstrates beyonf rational statistical doubt that humans and great apes share common ancestors, and Richard Lenski's e coli have been observed spontaneously mutating in the laboratory. Your appeal to ignorance here falls flat, because both sides are not equally ignorant. Just because everything isn't known doesn't mean that we don't know some things, and some of the things we DO know show evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection to be valid empirical science. Vast masses of empirical evidence exist to this effect, and not a single shred of credible empirical evidence either contradicts evolutionary theory or supports ID. Which simply demonstrates that whereas evolutionary theory is empirical science, creationism/ID ISN'T empirical science, but is religious dogma instead.

412 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:33pm

re: #410 Sharmuta

Get these body thetans offa me!

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:22:14pm

re: #408 Thanos

Nobody's witnessed the molten core of the earth, it's only a theory. (I mean GoD could be making that lava just a couple miles down and the core of the earth is really an iceball...)
Nobody's seen a meteor hit the moon, it's only a theory.
Nobody's been to Pluto, it's only a theory that it really exists
Fire cant' melt steel....


//// argggg

I never saw a moor,
I never saw the sea;
Yet know I how the heather looks,
And what a wave must be.

I never spoke with God,
Nor visited in heaven;
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given.

I don't know WHO that supports, but my juniors have essays on Emily Dickinson due tomorrow.

414 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:33pm

re: #409 Charles

I guess it's just really offensive to think of all of Life as interconnected.

I don't understand it either, because for me, evolution reveals a deeper sense of wonder and sanctity for Life in all it's forms- a more profound awe for God's creation. Not less.

415 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:55pm

I mean, sure, they fling poo at humans who gawk. But let's not hold that against them.

Sometimes I feel like flinging poo too.

416 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:25:45pm

re: #356 tunnelrat

undermining US national security in the process by hamstringing US global military and economic competitiveness, is a clear and present danger to all Americans.

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about not having future competent bioscientists to either design defences against bioengineered plagues, or to invent products and services by means of which the US can remain globally economically competitive in the bioscience field. because our budding scientists get nipped in the public high school bud by being indoctrinated in religious dogmas as though they were empirical facts.

417 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:28:01pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

I am only aware of one record of creation in the Bible, dude.

Then you haven't been paying attention. There are two distinct creation stories in Genesis, from two different sources. Or is source theory a foreign concept to you, too? Puts you in good company with the Muslims. Their book was dictated to Mighty Mo by Gibreel, the angelic messenger. Sort of like Joseph Smith and his golden tablets, which nobody ever saw besides Joe.

There I go again, disrespecting your beliefs.

I am only asking that evolution not be taught as a "fact" since it cannot be proven. I know Salamantis will say that there is empirical evidence and so forth, but the FACT is that it CANNOT be proven. Nobody has witnessed it, and so it is only a theory. I would expect that the theory of creationism would get the same emphasis.

And there you have it. Another misunderstander of the word "theory". Or is that misunderestimater?

Has anybody ever "witnessed" gravitational field theory? Yes? Could you show it to me if I asked you? Please? If not, why don't we teach that things are attracted towards other things because they like the way the other things look? That would be about as scientific as creationism.

State the "theory of creationism" in 100 words or less. Then show how it can be documented outside belief in the Bible. Then show how it would not discriminate against competing religious explanations if taught in school.

Can't?

Didn't think so.

Buffoon.

418 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:04pm

Speciation has occurred within our lifetimes, new species created. re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Wystan for your Emily

From the conservative dark
Into the ethical life
The dense commuters come,
Repeating their morning vow;
"I will be true to the wife,
I'll concentrate more on my work,"
And helpless governors wake
To resume their compulsory game:
Who can release them now,
Who can reach the deaf,
Who can speak for the dumb?

All I have is a voice
To undo the folded lie,
The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die.

419 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:01pm

re: #363 tunnelrat

Perhaps my children do not believe in evolution. How is that different?

You are free to indoctrinate your own kids in creationism at home or in churches or private religious schools that subscribe to it. What you are NOT free to do is to insist that the federal government indoctrinate both your kids and everybody else's kids in creationism for you in public high school science classes.

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:07pm

re: #415 Charles

I mean, sure, they fling poo at humans who gawk

Well, hell, I would too...

I like the idea of having ancestors. I like looking at a chimp and seeing a cousin. Family. I didn't just drop into this planet out of nowhere, I belong. I was part of the soup too.

And then a long time later part of the soup picked up a rock. Built a shelter. Poked fire with a stick until she figured out how it worked. Gave herself a name. Named the world around her. Stood up and looked at the stars. Pointed back at God and said "Hey--You."

We are most impressive apes, sometimes.

421 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:03pm

re: #339 tunnelrat

How is providing an alternative theory a threat to western civilization?

How is ID a theory, alternative or otherwise? Or maybe I should ask: What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

It is an attack on people of faith. It plays out here daily on the various anti-creationist threads which hammer anybody who disagrees with the Charles/Darwin version of history.

Again with this bogus claim, and no proof to back it up. You are using the exact same dishonest tactic of the DI by attempting to twist the issue into an atheist v. theist battle, rather than an empirical science v. untestable pseudo-science debate.

You are either a total liar or a complete moron.

Huh?

I guess that answers that question.

422 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:22pm

re: #409 Charles

...I think it's a wonderful, transcendent thing to realize that all the species on this planet are linked by a powerful force we're beginning to understand - an understanding that has led to medical and scientific breakthroughs that previous generations of human beings could not even have imagined. Breakthroughs that would have seemed like magic only a century ago.

Might as well be magic for all these people care.

That doesn't stop them from demanding whatever medical breakthroughs they can obtain if they get sick. Doesn't matter to them that monkey science might be behind it.

Words you'll never hear, not even from Tunnel Rat: "Don't give me no damn medicine that was tested on a rat! I ain't no dirty rat!"

423 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:30pm

ooops, missed the best stanza:

Defenceless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

424 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:55pm

Also- I'm really surprised by anyone who has ever had or at least played with a little baby who can deny their "monkey"-like qualities. In particular, the reflexes of newborns such as the grasp reflex and the moro reflex. These are still ingrained in newborns because of our ancient ancestry with our ape relatives.

425 Bombarafat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:35:31pm

I've stayed out of posting on these creationist threads but I can't stand it anymore. Can't we just go back to politics?
People want to believe they are descended from animals, let them think that. People want to believe they are descended from Adam and Eve, that's fine too.

426 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:35:46pm

re: #423 Thanos

ooops, missed the best stanza:

Defenceless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

Glorious.

427 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:02pm

Go on, creationists- explain the grasp reflex. Why do newborn babies not only have the grasp reflex in their hands, but also their feet?

428 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:52pm

re: #416 Salamantis

Huh? Being exposed to the creationist theory would do that? Wow!

429 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:37:02pm

re: #425 Bombarafat

First- there are multiple threads on politics that have been posted just today.

Second- this is proposed legislation, so it is politics.

430 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:37:05pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

Also- I'm really surprised by anyone who has ever had or at least played with a little baby who can deny their "monkey"-like qualities. In particular, the reflexes of newborns such as the grasp reflex and the moro reflex. These are still ingrained in newborns because of our ancient ancestry with our ape relatives.

Or, for that matter, anyone who's ever seen a baby gorilla. They are amazingly people-like, except for the nose and all that hair...

431 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:37:58pm

re: #373 tunnelrat

I'm am not demanding respect for my beliefs, just the right to them. How are they a threat to national security, as Salamantis stated in post # 350?
Get a grip people! I believe in the biblical version of creation but that does not mean that you are somehow in danger.

Let me repeat mu post #350, since you didn't get it the first time:

"Gratuitously and illegitimately shoehorning creationism into public high school science classes, undermining US national security in the process by hamstringing US global military and economic competitiveness, is a clear and present danger to all Americans."

I was not referring to your obvious right to hold your creationist beliefs, I was referring to the creationist attempts to forcibly indoctrinate other peoples' children in them in public high school science classes. And yes, as I explained above, such a polluting and poisoning of the well of science education pedagogy by religious dogmas is indeed a clear and present danger to US national security.

Got it?

432 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:38:25pm

re: #343 tunnelrat

You have got to be kidding me.

It's not a joke, it's a fact. You would know this, and wouldn't bother with your "kidding me" shtick, if you had a single ounce of intellectual honesty.

433 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:28pm

re: #428 tunnelrat

I see you're still here. Do you have an answer for this problem?
The Constitution requires that we treat every religious creation story equally.
If one is taught in science class, they must all be.

434 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:50pm

re: #430 SanFranciscoZionist

The last time I was privileged enough to be at the Omaha Doorley zoo, they had a new baby gorilla. She was so cute, and indeed- you could see in her so many similarities to a human infant that the whole experience of watching her with her handler (she'd been rejected by her mother) was just as wondrous as watching a human baby with it's parent(s).

435 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:40:15pm

re: #433 jaunte

I see you're still here.

Yeah- I thought he was done with these threads.

436 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:41:19pm

re: #434 Sharmuta

The last time I was privileged enough to be at the Omaha Doorley zoo, they had a new baby gorilla. She was so cute, and indeed- you could see in her so many similarities to a human infant that the whole experience of watching her with her handler (she'd been rejected by her mother) was just as wondrous as watching a human baby with it's parent(s).

Awwww...

437 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:41:39pm

re: #425 Bombarafat

I've stayed out of posting on these creationist threads but I can't stand it anymore. Can't we just go back to politics?
People want to believe they are descended from animals, let them think that. People want to believe they are descended from Adam and Eve, that's fine too.

Three threads and almost 3,000 comments about Barack Obama's press conference, and still people whine, "Who cares about this? Can't we go back to politics?"

438 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:41:45pm

re: #425 Bombarafat

You missed Obama's speech? This is part of the poo the left will rightly fling in response to his line about "blowing up schools". That's what the political bills are all about, blowing up science classes. I hate it when Discovery Institute helps Obama be right.

439 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:30pm

re: #378 tunnelrat

My point exactly. Since neither can be proven I would like to see them both taught. Sort of a "fairness doctorine" concept

Wrong. What should be taught in public high school science class is empirical science. Empirical science is supported by empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory is supported by oceans of it. Creationism/ID is supported by not a single dribble of it. Because creationism/ID is not empirical science, but religious dogma, which is why it does not belong in public high school science class.

440 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:43:08pm

Note to creationists: I noticed a trend that the more people complain about the number of evolution threads the higher the frequency of said threads appearing. I personally love these threads, so I guess what I'm trying to say is keep it up!

441 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:43:59pm

re: #427 Sharmuta

Go on, creationists- explain the grasp reflex. Why do newborn babies not only have the grasp reflex in their hands, but also their feet?

They do understand one reflex clearly.... it's the WAHHHHHHHH! reflex.

442 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:44:06pm

re: #380 tunnelrat

Oh it has?

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

443 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:44:33pm

re: #439 Salamantis

Can you post a response without using the word "empirical" at least four times in it? You sound like a broken record.

444 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:46:14pm

re: #443 tunnelrat

"Empirical" has a specific meaning that's important to the point Sal is making.

Have you thought about the Constitutional question I've been asking you?

445 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:46:23pm

re: #425 Bombarafat

I've stayed out of posting on these creationist threads but I can't stand it anymore. Can't we just go back to politics?
People want to believe they are descended from animals, let them think that. People want to believe they are descended from Adam and Eve, that's fine too.

I stay away from most of the Obama threads because ranting at Obama grates on my nerves and accomplishes nothing.

I don't complain about them, I just select the threads I'm interested in. Like this one.

You don't like it? Don't read it.

And trying to jam thinly-disguised, particularist religious dogma in the face of high-school students under color of its being "another theory" on the same footing as science is politics par excellence.

Dolt.

446 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:47:26pm

re: #436 SanFranciscoZionist

Awwww...

That was pretty much the crowd's reaction to her. Simply darling, and compared to a human infant (not to mention the genetics) I can't understand how anyone could claim she's not a member of our extended family.

447 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:02pm

re: #390 tunnelrat

OK, I'm through with these ID posts on LGF. Am tired of being argued with and insulted for believing the biblical version of the origins of life.
You people may have come from monkeys, but I am a descendant of Adam and Eve.

Actually, thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, found in identical sites in the three billion base pair genomes of humans and great apes, conclusively demonstrate, beyond rational statistical doubt, that we and they evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors. Not only that, but Mitochondrial Eve lived 140,000 years ago, and Y-Chromosomal Adam didnt show up unto 60,000 years later (80,000 years ago).

448 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:05pm

Wow! My Karma went down 100 points in this thread! Does that bring me down to troll status now? Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Why does LGF insist on persecuting those who believe in the Bible?

449 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:29pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

How do you propose to resolve this issue?
The Constitution requires that we treat every religious creation story equally.
If one is taught in science class, they must all be.

450 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:11pm

re: #449 jaunte

Teach them all, or teach none. It's very simple.

451 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:22pm

re: #443 tunnelrat

Can you post a response without using the word "empirical" at least four times in it? You sound like a broken record.

Empirical evidence is what empirical science deals in. It's what evolutionary theory has to support it, in spades. And it is what religious dogma of creationism/ID utterly lacks.

452 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:08pm

re: #450 tunnelrat

Teach them all, or teach none. It's very simple.

Are you trying to argue that science is a religion?

453 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:15pm

re: #450 tunnelrat

'None' is how it works now. The ID folks are proposing to change that.

454 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:24pm

Darn it, I said I was quitting up thread. There's a dog waiting for a cuddle and an injured foot (much like that of an ape, right down to the prehensile toes - yes, I can pick things up with them!) crying for its heating pad.

Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in!

455 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:29pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

Wow! My Karma went down 100 points in this thread! Does that bring me down to troll status now? Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Why does LGF insist on persecuting those who believe in the Bible?

Your karma keeps going in the toilet because you have yet to understand LGF is not "persecuting" people who believe in the Bible! We are taking a stance on people trying to indoctrinate the children of others via the public school's science classrooms. In other words- we are defending our rights and the rights of others to teach our/their children the faith of our/their choice protected by our Constitution.

456 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:53:35pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

We don't. We do ding down people who say such things repeatedly however.

457 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:20pm

re: #450 tunnelrat

Why are you advocating taking away the rights of parents to teach the faith of their choice to their children so you can feel your faith is validated?

458 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:20pm

re: #455 Sharmuta

Fair enough. Do you also consider "global warming" to be an indoctorination of our children?

459 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:23pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

Wow! My Karma went down 100 points in this thread! Does that bring me down to troll status now? Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Why does LGF insist on persecuting those who believe in the Bible?

No idiotarianism is immune to anti-idiotarian criticism here, neither that of Islamofascists and their useful idiot leftist enablers, nor that of euroneonazis and naive antijihadists who by allying with them lend them credibility while costing themselves the same, nor that of Islamocreationists loke the Harun Yahya with whom the US creationist organization the Disco Institute has been dealing, nor that of US creationists such as the Disco Institute and their supporters who are attempting to subvert US public high school science education with their religious dogmas.

460 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:54pm

re: #458 tunnelrat

This isn't about global warming.

461 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:57:44pm

Just want to note... Many chimpanzees have suffered and are doomed to live miserable and painful lives because of the contributions they have made to medical science; testing our drugs and vaccines, being infected with HIV on purpose in order to develop treatments. I think they deserve a lot of respect.

Everyone who looks down on chimps should see this video:

462 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:39pm

re: #460 Sharmuta

This isn't about global warming.

But that's a well worn standard tactic among DI shills. When in trouble, change the topic.

463 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:44pm

re: #460 Sharmuta

True. But the question is relevant.

464 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:13pm

tunnelrat- is your faith so weak that it needs science to validate it? Isn't that kind of a slap at the Bible?

465 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:02pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

Wow! My Karma went down 100 points in this thread! Does that bring me down to troll status now? Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Why does LGF insist on persecuting those who believe in the Bible?

And hear we go again...

Whining about karma. Check.

Complaining about not being taken seriously. Check.

Persecution complex. Check.

All very trollish.

And this has to be the ultimate unintentionally funny line of the evening: "Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS."

Think it through, genius. You just admitted that you're an idiotarian in your personal religious beliefs.

Either that, or you're saying that religious beliefs should not be subject to scrutiny. Especially yours. Idiotarian either way.

466 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:36pm

re: #464 Sharmuta

Where do you get that bs? I only wish to have my unproven views given the same weight as other unproven views. It is only fair.

467 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:41pm

re: #463 tunnelrat

I've been on enough of these threads to know this tactic of changing the subject to global warming. I accept that climate change happens. After all- we're not in an ice age anymore. Other than that- I'm not playing this "change of subject" game.

468 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:49pm

re: #397 SanFranciscoZionist

Still doesn't change the scientific evidence.

That's right. Empirical science is not a popularity contest; otherwise, we would have lived on a flat earth circled by the sun in ancient times, which would have only morphed into a sun-circling oblate spheroid when opinions about it changed. Nor does one's degree of zealous fanatical fervency bend or cancel empirical facts, or else homicide bombers would be in possession of the truth.

469 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:56pm

re: #466 tunnelrat

But evolution has been proven.

470 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:05pm

re: #464 Sharmuta

I think the attitude is more like, "God has to do things the way I want him to do it. He's too stupid to speak in metaphors or poetry."

471 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:02pm

re: #466 tunnelrat

Where do you get that bs? I only wish to have my unproven views given the same weight as other unproven views. It is only fair.

Deal strait with us.

Are you arguing that science is a religion?

472 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:03:06pm

re: #470 Basho

Actually- I think it's human ego. And it's the height of nerve, imo, to dictate to God how He works.

473 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:03:41pm

re: #465 Cato the Elder

Hey dude, because we disagree on this issue does not mean that I am an idiotarian. Please don't jump to conclusions.

474 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:27pm

re: #473 tunnelrat

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

475 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:43pm

re: #466 tunnelrat

Who said life is fair?

476 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:49pm

re: #471 Syrah

No, I am arguing that evolution is a faith.

477 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:02pm

re: #476 tunnelrat

No, I am arguing that evolution is a faith.

Now finish out that thought. Faith in what?

478 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:12pm

re: #476 tunnelrat

No, I am arguing that evolution is a faith.

How Orwellian of you.

479 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:34pm

I'm actually a little surprised tunnelrat hasn't asked for links to back up my assertion evolution has been proven.

480 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:59pm

re: #463 tunnelrat

True. But the question is relevant.

No, it isn't. The argument there is whether there is sufficient scientific evidence. There is NO such argument to be made about evolution.

And I say this as someone who's considerably more to the side of global warming than most folks around here.

481 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:09pm

re: #473 tunnelrat

Hey dude, because we disagree on this issue does not mean that I am an idiotarian. Please don't jump to conclusions.

I was using logic. "Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS."

Simple syllogism:

Tunnel Rat is anti-idiotarian on all things.
Except on personal religious beliefs.
Therefore, Tunnel Rat is idiotarian on personal religious beliefs.

I'm making fun of you, of course. Aren't we using logic here? Or is your whole argument based on the logical fallacy that "belief" and "knowledge" cannot be distinguished from one another?

482 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:17pm

re: #476 tunnelrat

Do you even know what "faith" means?

belief that is not based on proof

Evolution has proof- in spades.

483 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:59pm

re: #461 Basho

Cool. Chimps definitely deserve recognition for all we've put them through and the understanding that they have given us.

I'm wondering now if I should post my chimp video.(probably best not to eh?)

;-)

484 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:10:25pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

I know Salamantis will say that there is empirical evidence and so forth, but the FACT is that it CANNOT be proven. Nobody has witnessed it, and so it is only a theory.

Nobody has witnessed groups of electrons moving from one atom to the next on copper wire, therefore electricity cannot be proven. So, is there a dogmatic/religious explanation about how the lights in my house work? Something to compete with electrical theory?

485 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:21pm

re: #482 Sharmuta

Do you even know what "faith" means?

Evolution has proof- in spades.

He seems to see no difference between scientific proofs and "witnessing".

486 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:32pm

re: #402 tunnelrat

I am only aware of one record of creation in the Bible, dude.
I am only asking that evolution not be taught as a "fact" since it cannot be proven. I know Salamantis will say that there is empirical evidence and so forth, but the FACT is that it CANNOT be proven. Nobody has witnessed it, and so it is only a theory. I would expect that the theory of creationism would get the same emphasis.

This single simple paragraph is so wrong bout so many thing that it will take me a while to right them all.

Evolution is a fact. Different species have populated our globe at different times. Dinosaurs aren't around today, and mammals weren't around in the Precambrian. Evolutuionary theory concerns the mechanisms by means of which this change has transpired. And reams upon reams of empirical evidence attest that it was by means of random genetic evolution and nonrandom environmental selection, while no credible empirical evidence contradicts this.

Empirical science doesn't deal in absolute apodictic proof, because to do so would foreclose any possibility of a theory being elaborated and refined by subsequent evidence. This is one of empirical science's chief strengths, and correspondingly, oe of the main weaknesses of religiopus dogma is that it does insist that it is absolutely and eternally true, and it is thus forever frozen in a brittle ancient amber that is irreparably shattered when subsequent empirical evidence demonstrates that the world isn't the way that the dogma asserts.

A theory in science is a very strong thing, unlike the meaning of the word in common discourse. According to the US Natiopnal Academy of Science:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact."

Now creationism/ID lacks an essential thing that evolutionary theory possesses, and that is supporting empirical evidence. Which is why it is false to call creationism/ID a theory in the scientific sense; it is a religious dogma, and religious dogmas have no place in public high school science classes.

487 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:20pm

Tunnelrat,

If you methylate a certain spot in chicken embryos you can make it grow a fully articulated 16 vertebrate dinosaur tail.
If you methylate another spot, voila, scales like a dinosaur.
Another spot you get dino like teeth.

Now what's Behe's theory on that? Can Casey Luskin explain why it happens? Does ID even have a hypothesis on it?

488 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:06pm

re: #487 Thanos

Tunnelrat,

If you methylate a certain spot in chicken embryos you can make it grow a fully articulated 16 vertebrate dinosaur tail.
If you methylate another spot, voila, scales like a dinosaur.
Another spot you get dino like teeth.

Now what's Behe's theory on that? Can Casey Luskin explain why it happens? Does ID even have a hypothesis on it?

Wow. I didn't know you could do that! Link? Please?

489 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:37pm

re: #488 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow. I didn't know you could do that! Link? Please?

Let me see if I can find the vid on it, you can actually see pics.

490 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:17pm

Is Tunnel Rat's tunnel circular, or is my head just spinning from all the oxygen being sucked out of reason?

This time I mean it: Good night, all! And Tunnel Rat, I'll be praying for you.

491 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:54pm

tunnelrat- I feel kind of sorry for you. I've asserted repeatedly that evolution has been proven, but you haven't asked for specifics or links. I have a hunch it's because you know the body of evidence is overwhelming, and impossible to refute. So you continue to lie to yourself because, for whatever reason, you're insistent that evolution and God are not compatible. It's just not true. Many Christian denominations accept evolution to be true. It's called Theistic evolution, and you can embrace it.

492 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:56pm

Sorry folks, but I need to go to bed now, you will need to beat up on somebody else the rest of the night. Please feel free to ding me down to -300 or -400 or so, and I won't interrupt your Darwin worship circle jerks anymore.

493 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:05pm

re: #492 tunnelrat

I won't interrupt your Darwin worship circle jerks anymore.

Where in the Bible did you learn this compassion towards others?

494 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:12pm

re: #492 tunnelrat

Sorry folks, but I need to go to bed now, you will need to beat up on somebody else the rest of the night. Please feel free to ding me down to -300 or -400 or so, and I won't interrupt your Darwin worship circle jerks anymore.

And when they run out of air, they get nasty.

Praying harder, TR. God bless!

495 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:39pm

And while I'm asking for links--can someone recommend me a good book or somethin' that explains just what ID is? I read a couple of articles in Newsweek a while back, but I still don't fully understand the concept behind it.

My dad was taught in Catholic school in the 1950s that evolution is apparently the method by which God chose to create, and that's always felt comfortable for me--and I suppose that in that there is a sort of concept of 'intelligent design'. However, ID doesn't seem to mean the same as 'believing that God's hand works through the evolutionary process'. Recommendations?

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:00pm

re: #489 Thanos

Let me see if I can find the vid on it, you can actually see pics.

Thanks.

497 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:41pm

re: #492 tunnelrat

That was ill mannered.

498 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:38pm

It seems to me that what we are seeing is a concerted effort to blur the line between religion and science.

499 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:39pm

re: #425 Bombarafat

I've stayed out of posting on these creationist threads but I can't stand it anymore. Can't we just go back to politics?
People want to believe they are descended from animals, let them think that. People want to believe they are descended from Adam and Eve, that's fine too.

Creatuionists have MADE this into politics, by trying to get legislation passed that would forcibly indoctrinate other peoples' kids into their pet religious dogmas in public high school science classes. What people choose to or not to believe is NOT the issue here; the simultaneous multistate attempt to legislatively coerce public high school systems into mandating the illegitimate foisting off of religious dogmas as empirical fact upon naive, gullible and credulous young minds in public high school science classes IS.

500 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:35pm

re: #496 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks.

I'm still digging, here's something to watch while I do,

Computational Genomics

This is where they got the idea, but not the vid on the experiments themselves.

501 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:50pm

re: #495 SanFranciscoZionist

Wiki actually has a good history of the movement:

Wedge strategy
Intelligent design movement
Theistic realism
Intelligent design

502 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:00pm

re: #495 SanFranciscoZionist

Barbara Forrest's book, Creationism's Trojan Horse, The Wedge of Intelligent Design is a good well-documented study of the political movement.

503 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:15pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

Wow! My Karma went down 100 points in this thread! Does that bring me down to troll status now?

No, your dishonest trolling confers that status upon you.

Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Why does LGF insist on persecuting those who believe in the Bible?

You keep posting this lie about LGF persecuting people of faith, you sound like a broken record. Not only that, but your lies about persecution are a spit in the face of everyone in the world, past and present, who have or continue to suffer REAL religious persecution.

You sir, are scum.

504 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:25pm

I think someone's going to be having nightmares tonight involving monkeys, dinosaurs, chickens and possibly a salamander as well.

505 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:28pm

re: #428 tunnelrat

Huh? Being exposed to the creationist theory would do that? Wow!

That's the danger from shredding the scientific paradigm of empirical evidence and experimental verification and falsification by mandating that religious dogmas lacking a single crumb of credible supporting empirical evidence be taught to students in public high school science class as if it possessed equal status with evolutionary theory, which is massively empirically supported.

506 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:45pm

Thank you all--Thanos, I won't be able to watch on this computer anyway, so if you find it, just post it to the bottom of this thread and I'll come back later...no rush.

507 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:55pm

re: #498 Syrah

It seems to me that what we are seeing is a concerted effort to blur the line between religion and science.

I really think the wiki link on Theistic realism captures the intent of the ID movement.

Theistic realism, as Johnson describes it, is an attempt to redefine science outside of naturalistic philosophy. The fundamental philosophy of science eschews any appeal to supernatural causes or events. Therefore, adding the theistic assumption as a prerequisite for doing science is fundamentally at odds with the very definition of science.

That, my friend, is the movement in a nutshell. To redefine science.

508 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:28:34pm

Talking tough’s easy when it’s other people’s evil
And you’re judging what they do or don’t believe
It seems to me you’d have to have a hole in your own
To point a finger at somebody else’s sheet

Heh.

509 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:11pm

Here we go, this is amazing - recreating Dinosaurs

510 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:41pm

One note: It starts with attempts to recover actual Dino DNA, the retrgrade chickens don't appear until the latter chapters.

511 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:27pm

re: #450 tunnelrat

Teach them all, or teach none. It's very simple.

Which means teach none. If every religious creation myth were taught in public high school science class, there would be no time left to teach the students genuine science. Which is what the Disco Institute desires.

Such a class in the creation myths of all the different religions (Judeo-Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, Hindu, Sikh, Shinto, Zoroastrian, and the many different Pagan beliefs, among others) could indeed be taught, but it wouldn't be a science class, it would be a comparative religion class.

512 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:35:16pm

re: #507 Sharmuta

That, my friend, is the movement in a nutshell. To redefine science.

It is nutty.

I don't understand why they are so invested in focusing on what people believe about the moment by moment events in the Garden of Eden to the Flood of Noah when what is of more specific import to Christianity is what people believe about the moment by moment events in the Garden of Gethsemane to the Cross at Calvary.

This fixation on Creation is a terrible stumbling block.

513 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:37:20pm

re: #458 tunnelrat

Fair enough. Do you also consider "global warming" to be an indoctorination of our children?

As I said before, invoking AGW to argue against evolution or for creationism being taught in public schools is like invoking Ron Paul to argue against Abraham Lincoln or for Stephen A. Douglas concerning the slavery issue.

514 Syrah  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:39pm

tunnelrat, you are still logged in.

Are you in, or out?

515 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:23pm

re: #463 tunnelrat

True. But the question is relevant.

It's (AGW) not relevant to the creationist attempts to force creationist dogmas into public high school science classes.

516 tunnelrat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:56pm

re: #514 Syrah

Still logged in, but need to log now. Many things to do in the morning.

517 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:02pm

Here's part three

518 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:13pm

re: #466 tunnelrat

Where do you get that bs? I only wish to have my unproven views given the same weight as other unproven views. It is only fair.

What is NOT fair (or constitutional - see the establishment clause of the 1st amendment)) is to have sectarian religious dogmas that lack a single shred of empirical evidence support illegitimately placed on an equal footing with evolutionary theory, which is supported by a tankerload of empirical evidence, in public high school science class. Only science belongs in there, not religion.

519 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:17pm

re: #491 Sharmuta

tunnelrat- I feel kind of sorry for you. I've asserted repeatedly that evolution has been proven, but you haven't asked for specifics or links. I have a hunch it's because you know the body of evidence is overwhelming, and impossible to refute. So you continue to lie to yourself because, for whatever reason, you're insistent that evolution and God are not compatible. It's just not true. Many Christian denominations accept evolution to be true. It's called Theistic evolution, and you can embrace it.

Yes, he comes across as someone who is very afraid for his worldview. He probably at some level is aware of how fragile it is and hates us for putting it in peril. He must really have bought the lie that partial - ie non-literal- belief is the same as unbelief in God's eyes.

520 freetoken  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:39pm

re: #409 Charles

This visceral revulsion at being linked to other members of the primate family is behind so much of the anti-evolution crowd. I don't get it. Why do you hate our closest animal relatives?

My working model in trying to understand people is that we, humans, homo sapiens, are unique (as far we know) in being able to contemplate our own demise.

The existential angst that arises out of our impending death drives us, not just in arguments over ID/evolution, but in many matters.

To many people, and I speak this from having conversed with many people over decades on this subject, the idea that we (humans) are essentially another primate and evolved from a common ancestor with the other current apes... is one that removes their solution to their angst - God.

No matter how many times you repeat the Lao of Stinky, it has been resolved in the minds of many people that if evolution is true then there is no God.

The numbers according the polls have barely budged over decades.

This tells me that facts are not going to be of much help here. For a few, yes, the facts can help them change their minds, but for most people I think it will not matter. It is for this reason why I left discussing (or even thinking) about this problem, until you started reporting on the Dover case and your current emphasis of evolution as good science (and that good science is an important part of what is modern about Western civilization.)

Look at it this way... there are worse things than being identified as being an ape. Just wait until you are going to be identified as a friend of Al Gore...

521 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:05pm

re: #473 tunnelrat

Hey dude, because we disagree on this issue does not mean that I am an idiotarian. Please don't jump to conclusions.

If you believe that public high schools should be forced to indoctrinate other peoples' kids in your pet sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science classes, you are indeed an IDiotarian, at least on this issue.

It's called a fitting shoe. Wear it.

522 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:50:42pm

re: #476 tunnelrat

No, I am arguing that evolution is a faith.

When creationists fail to elevate their pet religious dogmas to the status of empirical sisince, they tend to attempt to pull empirical science down to the level of a religious dogma. But this endeavor is doomed to failure too, because the difference between scientific theories and religious dogmas is that scientific theories such as evolution are supported by empirical evidence, while religious dogmas such as creationism are not. This bright line distinction cannot be blurred or erased; it indelibly remains.

523 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:17pm

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

LHC restart delayed again goddammit.

524 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:55:31pm

re: #520 freetoken


My working model in trying to understand people is that we, humans, homo sapiens, are unique (as far we know) in being able to contemplate our own demise.

I dunno. I think there are many genera of self-aware animals that are capable of contemplating their own mortality. They're just not as big of a pussy about like us humans. :)

525 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:18pm

re: #492 tunnelrat

Sorry folks, but I need to go to bed now, you will need to beat up on somebody else the rest of the night. Please feel free to ding me down to -300 or -400 or so, and I won't interrupt your Darwin worship circle jerks anymore.

It is not worship to acknowledge that an empirical scientist figured out something very important about the biological world. And agreement is not circle jerking, pivot man. But go back to picking creationist dogma daisies and trying to weave them into a chain with which you can lasso and hogtie public high school science education.

526 meeshlr  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:42pm

re: #9 kay1212

Oh great! America is going religious extremist. That ought to help our credibility in fighting religious extremists around the world.

We are rushing down the road to ruin.

It seems contradictory that Obama was elected and at the same time ID is creeping into classrooms. Maybe the moonbats could focus on keeping ID out of schools and leave the economy to the capitalists.

527 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:29pm

Bedtime for me. Night all:)

528 meeshlr  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:12:50pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

Exactly!

I suspect that the same people who support ID and creationism being taught in our schools would SCREAM if it was Islamists seeking to teach the Quran's creation story.

529 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:25:15pm

re: #512 Syrah

I don't understand why they are so invested in focusing on what people believe about the moment by moment events in the Garden of Eden to the Flood of Noah when what is of more specific import to Christianity is what people believe about the moment by moment events in the Garden of Gethsemane to the Cross at Calvary.

This fixation on Creation is a terrible stumbling block.

They can't separate the mind from the soul. The Bible is a spiritual guide, not a science text.

But actually- I have read elsewhere that for them Genesis has to be literally true because of the Fall. Without the Fall and original sin, to them, there is no justification for Jesus' sacrifice. As if humanity still would not have needed redemption with God without a literal Fall.

530 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:34:25pm

re: #502 jaunte

Barbara Forrest's book, Creationism's Trojan Horse, The Wedge of Intelligent Design is a good well-documented study of the political movement.

Totally agree. Excellent. But it's getting a little dated already (except for the Dover update in the new edition) and more than a little dense. I sped through "Your Inner Fish" and "More Than a Theory" in a few days but I've been reading this one for months. One reason is that some of the references and footnotes have led me to several other sources that have led me to ... well, you get the drift. It's a fractal book. That's a good thing but for someone who just wants a basic ID 101 it may be a little much. Reading the Wedge Document is probably the best intro there is. Self-explanatory, pretty much.

531 jaunte  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:35:15pm

re: #530 Lynn B.

True, it is a little like reading the phone book in parts, but some fascinating detail.

532 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:39:21pm

re: #529 Sharmuta

I read that too. But honestly, I feel that if the Bible is absolutely literally true in one area, it's on the idea of original sin. That everybody has the capacity to do wrong, that we aren't blank slates, something that has been validated by science.

If God needed this metaphoric story about the fall to make this point to his early followers, then he did so brilliantly since it has stood the test of time.

I think biblical literalists who subscribed to the mentality that you describe are just plain dumb.

533 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:45:10pm

re: #510 Thanos

One note: It starts with attempts to recover actual Dino DNA, the retrgrade chickens don't appear until the latter chapters.

Retrograde chickens? You mean those who refuse to condemn Islamo-Fascists?

534 Basho  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:48:42pm

Well, looks like everyone is gone on this thread. I better be heading to bed since it is getting late...

Charles, I sent you an email earlier tonight. I'm not expecting you to have read it since I'm sure you're a busy individual, but let me know if you did receive it so that I don't have to worry if it got through or not.

535 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:49:20pm

re: #530 Lynn B.

Long as you're up, Lynn, there's a message from me waiting for you on the Pope thread down below. If you've had it with the subject, ignore it, but it's there.

536 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:01:28pm

re: #534 Basho

Well, looks like everyone is gone on this thread. I better be heading to bed since it is getting late...

Charles, I sent you an email earlier tonight. I'm not expecting you to have read it since I'm sure you're a busy individual, but let me know if you did receive it so that I don't have to worry if it got through or not.

Got it, thanks, and I'll check out your links.

537 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:05:42pm

re: #528 meeshlr

I suspect that the same people who support ID and creationism being taught in our schools would SCREAM if it was Islamists seeking to teach the Quran's creation story.

A fact that not only makes them filthy liars, but damned hypocrites as well.

And filthy liars they are, when they claim that all they want is equal time in science class for their "competing theory", and claiming that it is not creationism in a new dress. Their very own Governing Goals prove them to be liars:

Governing Goals

- To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
- To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

They seek to achieve these goals not to bring people to Jesus, but to gain worldly power for themselves. They are attempting to do so by subverting the Constitution and using American children as pawns. They are no different in this regard than the communists and leftists. Un-American scum, the lot of them.

538 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:37:10pm

re: #448 tunnelrat

Wow! My Karma went down 100 points in this thread! Does that bring me down to troll status now? Actually, I am anti-idiotarian on all things, except PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Why does LGF insist on persecuting those who believe in the Bible?

You're NOT PERSECUTED. You're disagreed with. But I won't disagree with you on this one point you're making. You are pro-idiotarian with respect to evolution, and sensible on every other topic. Lots of people have a blind spot. It's OK. We love you anyhow. But you're wrong on the science of evolution.

539 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 11:50:06pm

Enough with the Orwellian titles to these legislative pieces of trash. Missouri has a Democratic governor and will no doubt veto it. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

540 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 12:52:30am

re: #519 Jimmah

Yes, he comes across as someone who is very afraid for his worldview. He probably at some level is aware of how fragile it is and hates us for putting it in peril. He must really have bought the lie that partial - ie non-literal- belief is the same as unbelief in God's eyes.

And that lie is really infuriating. I reject the notion that I or anyone else must reject our God given intellect and deny reality in order to be considered devout Christians. They confuse ignorance with piety, and it's this unholy alliance that has led to many of the world's troubles.

541 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 12:53:35am

re: #539 MrPaulRevere

Academic Subterfuge would be more appropriate.

542 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 1:17:55am

re: #541 Sharmuta

A valid point, but for years they( and by that I mean both parties) have been attaching misleading and deceptive titles to all manner of legislation. Its creepy and show's contempt for the average citizen

543 Victory Gin For All  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:08:25am

As long as our Declaration of Independence states that our inalienable rights come from our creator--the foundation of our constitution--we must keep at least the idea of God alive. Once that idea is gone, it follows that our rights are not inalienable and they come from whatever tyrant happens to be in charge. I'd rather my rights come from an arguably imaginary entity than a real human.

You can say that you accept evolution as fact and that you also believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who concerns himself with the affairs of men, but come on. Who are you trying to kid? That's why creationists are digging in.

I really don't care what secular Europe thinks of us. We've been kicking their asses for the past century and a half (not just militarily), so apparently this "God" thing hasn't been hurting us.

544 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:49:04am

re: #543 Victory Gin For All

As long as our Declaration of Independence states that our inalienable rights come from our creator--the foundation of our constitution--we must keep at least the idea of God alive. Once that idea is gone, it follows that our rights are not inalienable and they come from whatever tyrant happens to be in charge. I'd rather my rights come from an arguably imaginary entity than a real human.

You can say that you accept evolution as fact and that you also believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who concerns himself with the affairs of men, but come on. Who are you trying to kid? That's why creationists are digging in.

I really don't care what secular Europe thinks of us. We've been kicking their asses for the past century and a half (not just militarily), so apparently this "God" thing hasn't been hurting us.

WE are a secular nation (and have been for all that time that we were 'kicking [European] asses). We are governed not by the Declaration of Independence, which was addresssed to King Charles II, but by our Constitution, which affirms that church and state shall be separate, and that there shall be no religious test for public office.

And apparently you think that 1.6 billion Roman Catholics are just kidding people; they both are Christian theists and accept evolutionary theory as valid, sound and solid science.

btw: This is what Robert A. Heinlein had to say about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness:

"Ah yes, [life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness]... Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. The third 'right'?—the 'pursuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives—but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it."

Source: Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.), Starship Troopers, Page 119

545 Yashmak  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:11:44am
You can say that you accept evolution as fact and that you also believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who concerns himself with the affairs of men, but come on. Who are you trying to kid? That's why creationists are digging in.

- Victory Gin for All

Digging in? That's a defensive term. These folks aren't defending anything. They're on the offensive against science education in public schools. Trying to frame it as a defense of Christianity is a misrepresentation of the real situation.

546 Yashmak  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:21:14am

re: #487 Thanos


Now what's Behe's theory on that? Can Casey Luskin explain why it happens? Does ID even have a hypothesis on it?

Of course not. If they did have a supportable hypothesis with some real scientific evidence behind it, they wouldn't need sneaky legislation. . . their notions would make it into the science classroom on scientific merit.

547 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:38:18am

re: #402 tunnelrat

I am only aware of one record of creation in the Bible, dude.
I am only asking that evolution not be taught as a "fact" since it cannot be proven. I know Salamantis will say that there is empirical evidence and so forth, but the FACT is that it CANNOT be proven. Nobody has witnessed it, and so it is only a theory. I would expect that the theory of creationism would get the same emphasis.

You sound like an OJ juror; willing to let him walk, despite all the DNA evidence (which evolutionary theory has in profusion), because no one alive saw him slide the knife into Ron and Nicole.

548 Basho  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 8:29:48am

A little bit of Darwin political humor to start the day:
Image: 020809DarwinCOLOR5.jpg

549 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 9:26:15am

Some more humour:

Peter O'Hanrahanrahan savaged by news anchor:

550 markus  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 9:31:46am

I find it interesting that Lincoln and Darwin were both born the exact same day. Feb 12 1809.

551 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 9:32:33am

I'm outta here till tomorrow sometime - have fun!

552 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 9:42:32am

One more thing before I go: Global warming - David Attenborough

553 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 11:08:46am

re: #543 Victory Gin For All

As long as our Declaration of Independence states that our inalienable rights come from our creator--the foundation of our constitution--we must keep at least the idea of God alive. Once that idea is gone, it follows that our rights are not inalienable and they come from whatever tyrant happens to be in charge. I'd rather my rights come from an arguably imaginary entity than a real human.

First, The DoI doesn't trump the Constitution. Second, while I personally do believe in God, why are you neglecting the blood of this nation's forefathers? You skip right over that and evoke a tyrant, which this nation's never had. It's kind of disrespectful to the men and women who died to secure our Liberty.

You can say that you accept evolution as fact and that you also believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God who concerns himself with the affairs of men, but come on. Who are you trying to kid? That's why creationists are digging in.

That's nice- you're calling those of us who accept the veracity of evolution atheists. I don't know who you think you are to dictate to others what their spiritual beliefs are. Where is that in the Bible? Where did Jesus say you could tell others what they think about God? Shame on you!

I really don't care what secular Europe thinks of us. We've been kicking their asses for the past century and a half (not just militarily), so apparently this "God" thing hasn't been hurting us.

I don't know what this has to do with anything other than it's interesting you want to invoke the history of this nation at one point to defend God, but not invoke the religious history of Europe from which sprang the seeds of our own nation. It's this very religious history in Europe, and it's various sectarian conflicts, that led our Founders to protect our new form of government from those same damaging influences that gave us the First Amendment.

Lastly, nothing in your argument undermines the scientific, empirical data that supports evolution. It doesn't even support your argument for allowing religion into public schools. What your argument has done is show your contempt for not only science, but for the First Amendment. The tyrant you evoked earlier might just be closer at hand than you realize.

554 Mr Secul  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 12:17:49pm

re: #517 Thanos

That's awesome.

555 Nemesis6  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 1:59:00pm

What's wrong with you, America?


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