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Afghanistan is tougher over the long run than Iraq. It isn't an Arab nation, and the Pashtun culture is quite different.
You have to understand the culture to get inside the heads of the Taliban. You must leverage the culture against the radicals. The good news is that America has made many friends in Afghanistan.
Seriously, if the protection of American civilians via greasing terrorists in a rough terrain country is worth too much, I don't know if there is anything of worth.
In November 2001 all it took to over-run the Taliban and AQ was 250 Spec Ops NCOs, 300 fighter bombers, and 5 dozen daisycutters. By Christmas Afghanistan was defeated.
The lesson: do not send in 25,000-50,000 line soldiers what special operation troops could do. That was the mistake we made in Iraq.
It's worth preventing it from becoming a jihadi stronghold and training ground. Those things are exported easily. If we're there to help wreck stuff efficiently and keep the initiative on the Karzai side, that will help.
If it means that al Qaeda/Taliban get to use Afghanistan as a base of operations from which to plot future attacks against the West that kill thousands and cause hundreds of billions in damages, then the price of failure is steep.
If the price of failure is that the US gets tested by every 2d and 3d rate thug who wants to test their mettle against the overwhelmed Obama administration, the price of failure is steep.
If the price of success means denying the al Qaeda/Taliban safe harbor and creating some semblance of control and authority over the country, then it must be pursued at all costs. It means denying al Qaeda talking points, ability to recruit future jihadis, and puts a big dent in the Taliban operations.
However, that said, the problem resides not only in Afghanistan, but in the neighboring frontier provinces of Pakistan, which continue to provide safe harbor to Taliban and al Qaeda who can simply cross between the two countries at will and Pakistan's government in Islamabad is ill-prepared to fight the Islamists when so many Pakistanis support the terrorists and their goals.
Iraq had a real military and a real armed force compared with a ragtag collection of thugs and warlords controlling their own areas of operation. Special forces could not take out the Iraqi army on their own, or even with the assistance of people inclined to help because Saddam's thugs were quite good at enforcing the law - murdering tens of thousands of political dissidents and opponents of the regime.
I have to admit that I do not understand what our objective(s) are in Afghanistan. That part of the world is about as far from civilization as it seems possible to get, and as Michael points out we will spend a lot of lives and money for results that probably won't matter very much. If we could stop the opium trade, that might be a plus, but it would most likely slither back into SE Asia, or simply move to the next valley over when we leave. I am beginning to feel that smacking anyone who messes with us HARD immediately and then getting back out might be a better way to go. This whole "hearts and minds" thing doesn't seem to be working that well.
Defeating Afganistan was easier than conquering it will be. Ask anyone who has tried in the last 500 years.
I worry that winning the hearts and minds of the Pashtun will be difficult until they see the benefits of freedom, liberty and virtue outweighing the profits from drugs and terror.
This does not mean that it is not a worthwhile effort.
I just finished reading Yon's column. (AT&T had a severe hickup, kicked me off-line for a while.)
Yon: "... we need to know that the President has our backs."
I am NOT comfortable. Obama has shown me no spine, in any endeavor he's undertaken. Spine is what others see when you're taking hits. I fear for our military on the Afghan plains.
Who said anything about conquering Afghanistan? That was never part of the plan. It was to get a functioning central government for the first time in decades by uniting behind the government in Kabul rather than the individual warlords, many of whom had sheltered al Qaeda and Taliban.
The US plan was to deny al Qaeda a safe haven and area of operations.
Much of the situation in Pakistan today is due to the Bush administration's incompetent bungling of US relations with the failed state. For years the US gave tens of billions of dollars to the military government of Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Musharraf in turn used the money to build up Pakistan's military presence along the border with India, while allowing al-Qaida and the Taliban to relocate their headquarters in Pakistan after being ousted from Afghanistan by US forces.
They go out to battle us in Afganistan but the real battle is in Pakistan.
"As we enter a new fighting season in Afghanistan this year, we need to know that the President has our backs. Not just that he is behind us, but that he is covering our six and ready to politically and economically pounce on those who hamper our efforts. We need to know that the President is fully engaged in this fight, that he is there to win and for the long haul, that he listens and takes close counsel from our senior military, and that he has faith that we can make this process work. But eight years from now, this thing will not be over."
Unfortunately I think we all know the answer to that?
Monitor and wreck stuff. That's our objective. It's a running process, not a goal. When the Pashtun show an interest in leaving Islam, then we can talk about benchmarks and political goals.
Not necessairily. Outside the Fedayeen, the Iraqi army hadn't enough staying power to fight any of our forces for any length of time. They were short of fuel, ammunition, and communications. The Iraq army had no mobiliity. Saddam's plan all along was to fight a counter-insurgency.
And please, the Iraqi thugs had nothing on the Taliban concerning enforcement. General Franks wanted a WWII set piece battle, and all he did was create a 300 mile traffic jam to Baghdad - all the while 150,000 Iraqi regulars slipped away. That was the exact opposite of what occured in Afghanistan.
I wonder what the Pakistani's ever did to 0bama that no other Muslims did to him?
He was there once.
And now that he's President he is willing to kill people in Pakistan but no where else on earth.
Why?
And, more importantly, can his whim in this regard be twisted to the advantage of the Afghani people?
What is the worth of human dignity? What is the worth of a woman? What is the worth of education? What is the worth of failure?
For too long, the West turned a blind eye to the atrocities happening in Afghanistan, to our own demise. Victory might be a long and difficult affair, but failure could have swift and very damaging consequences.
Afghanistan might have been won by now had Pakistan truely been our partner, but given the stability and LIABILITY of the Pakistani nukes, we had to tread a very thin line. The governments in that region are what America actually should have, enormous local control (tribal counsels) and weak federal government. The insurgents were put in place in Afghanstan with help of the Pakistani SS, and they knew how to relate to them and had sympathy for them. Now when they are in their neck of the woods, the locals still love them but at the same time are cowed by their Mafia like tactics. Unless and until we can over come this (fat chance given the islamic fundy attitudes) they will be like flushiing fleas from a carpet, the only true way to get rid of them is burn the carpet...
Buzkashi is great and i bet some of our cowboy marines would love it.
I breed horses that have been bred for that game for years, best little get-it-done horses in the world. But one master kind of animals, intended only for master horsemen.
I speak Turkmen some, and study the region. We make sickening mistakes stemming From not understanding these guys all the time. My Marine wishes he could download that part of my brain. I wish i could put it on disk and distribute it to people who could do some good with it in our military.
All I know is that Afghanistan can not be left to its own devices and can not be a place for more Sept 11th. But it is a poor country stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hopefully Gen Petraeus will find a solution.
What is the worth of human dignity? What is the worth of a woman? What is the worth of education? What is the worth of failure?
For too long, the West turned a blind eye to the atrocities happening in Afghanistan, to our own demise. Victory might be a long and difficult affair, but failure could have swift and very damaging consequences.
We already know how much worth Leftoids ascribe to Afghanistan.
The right question is how much it is worth to not lose in Afghanistan?
Right now the country is a mess. The Karzai government has badly failed. We need our people to turn the place around and fast. Just as Iran was the problem in Iraq, Iran AND Pakistan are the problems in Afghanistan.
So what does President Golden Child do? Why point his words at India, the one reliable Democratic pro-US SUPERPOWER in the region. We need India.
India gets whacked in Mumbai and Obama decides to make nice-nice with the government that gave free reign to the people responsible.
Liberals are smarter than me, I know, these clowns are screwing up left right and center. They think they can just march in and KUMBAYA will bebreak out between India and Pakistan. Except for the part that Al Qaeda may take over Pakistan the way things are currently going in one of the the world's two nuclear failed states (North Korea being the other).
Well, the good news is that if it does start to go south in A-stan, we'll know little of it since the MSM can't bring themselves to say anything bad about the Bamster's administration. I mean it finally took Bammie hiring his third tax cheat to his cabinet before all the tongue-waggers on CNN said "OK...TWO tax cheaters we can handle but THREE is just a little too much, Mr. President."
Compared to Iraq, we'll hear nary a peep from A-stan. And that will mostly be white-washed fluff that won't paint the Bamster in a bad light. Even then, all Bamster has to do is say "Dudes, I screwed up" and all will be forgiven.
I can't report on the training of the Afghan Army, but I know that there are different tribal groups overlapping in Afghanistan that are ancient rivals. It's not naturally or ethnically a single nation, or a modern nation-state. I'm concerned that bogging the U.S. military down in Afghanistan strip us of important military resources that can be better deployed elsewhere, like Georgia or Ukraine, along a strategic pipeline.
Who said anything about conquering Afghanistan? That was never part of the plan. It was to get a functioning central government for the first time in decades by uniting behind the government in Kabul rather than the individual warlords, many of whom had sheltered al Qaeda and Taliban.
The US plan was to deny al Qaeda a safe haven and area of operations.
Fair enough I used "Conquer" inappropriately. What I am getting at is the difficulty of transforming a very stubborn yet primitive culture - in a sense conquering the barbarism but leaving the populace free. We never take on the easy ones do we!?
Let's call a victory in the War on Drugs and bring the boys home. Let's legalize every single stinking drug there is out there. Better yet, I'm sure there are a few mountain slopes here in the USA that will support poppies and coca plants quite nicely. What happens to the cartels and the Afghan warlords when their product's street value goes from being worth $5K a kilo to just $5? Wanna see how long civil unrest in Mexico continues to last? Wanna see how long the Marxists rebels in Columbia stay in business--they'd be too much of a drain on Hugo and Fidel/Raoul's already fragile economy. Most important, ol'Osama will have to get money from the family back in Saudi to keep his doors open. Sure, it might hurt us, but we spent the USSR into the ground in the 1980's. If they can practice oblique warfare on us, why not us on them?
What is the worth of human dignity? What is the worth of a woman? What is the worth of education? What is the worth of failure?
For too long, the West turned a blind eye to the atrocities happening in Afghanistan, to our own demise. Victory might be a long and difficult affair, but failure could have swift and very damaging consequences.
Sharmuta you are 100% correct. But how much blood will the American people take? The MFM will spin this like they did Iraq, and Iraq was easy compared to what Afghanistan will be.
What is the worth of human dignity? What is the worth of a woman? What is the worth of education? What is the worth of failure?
For too long, the West turned a blind eye to the atrocities happening in Afghanistan, to our own demise. Victory might be a long and difficult affair, but failure could have swift and very damaging consequences.
Exactly. If you thought how America's power looked after Vietnam was bad, you ain't seen nothin' yet. The North Vietnamese didn't have a burning desire to come over here and start destroying stuff. These folks do. They'll burn through our allies in Afghanistan, and then they'll come here next. They'll come here and they'll do what they tried to do on September 11, 2001, and with the USS Cole.
Damn, I hate this incessant quoting of Star Wars I've been doing right now, but, I've got a bad feeling about this.
Most of Afghans drugs end up in Europe, not the USA. Ours comes mostly from the south. So 'legalizing" drugs in the USA will do little to cure the Afghan problem
Support Poppies?
Here in southern California (it's the state flower) I planted three seeds two years ago and could have had an entire yard of them if I hadn't brutally cut them back!
They are WEEDS out here.
I have several addicted morning doves who do nothing but eat poppy seeds until they cannot walk upright and must dip a wing as a crutch!
If it were a cash crop I could be rich!
I can't report on the training of the Afghan Army, but I know that there are different tribal groups overlapping in Afghanistan that are ancient rivals. It's not naturally or ethnically a single nation, or a modern nation-state. I'm concerned that bogging the U.S. military down in Afghanistan strip us of important military resources that can be better deployed elsewhere, like Georgia or Ukraine, along a strategic pipeline.
Thanks. I remember reading that recruitment to units is done in proportion to tribal population (so that each unit has x Pashtun, y Tajik, etc, just like their makeup in the overall population). I can see the logic in this, so as not to have any units loyal to their own tribe above the county. Question is can they function like this with such animosity between the tribes.
since afganistan seems to be hopeless as a nation as the borders are currently drawn, what about the idea of re-drawing the borders? draw the borders more in line with the tribal identities and locations? Just a thought of mine.
Whatever dreams or hopes we had for Afghanistan were lost when Barry became President.
I'm with you. It will/would have taken intestinal fortitude and dedication to Principal to stick it out. The left is already agitating for a certain withdrawal date.
Saudi authorities believe the men are active members of al-Qaida or local offshoots and are trying to re-establish the terror network in Saudi Arabia after a series of harsh crackdowns in past years. They include 11 who have been released from the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay.
If 0bama cuts and runs on Afghanistan, I will never forgive him.
He campaigned to send 30000 more troops there. But hey he is a Dem and who knows what he will do. You can "only forgive him" if you believed what he said in the first place.
I'm with you. It will/would have taken intestinal fortitude and dedication to Principal to stick it out. The left is already agitating for a certain withdrawal date.
They did that with Iraq, and yet Bush gave O a victory to crow about now that Iraq is stable. The Dem playbook is sure predictable.
Legalizing it would make it cost effective. Most of the end cost is due to the high rice for transportation and risk, what would happen with that is they would just increase the production, to meet the new demand which more than likely would increase on a scale we wouldn't want to see. I really don't think we need that much decadence on top of our already shaky world standings LOL
Does this photo link work?
The photo of the poppies (with the milkweed in the foreground) shows what one tiny seed does in less than 1 year!
[Link: home.earthlink.net...]
since afganistan seems to be hopeless as a nation as the borders are currently drawn, what about the idea of re-drawing the borders? draw the borders more in line with the tribal identities and locations? Just a thought of mine.
Unlike Iraq, where there are three major "identities" (Sunni, Shia, Kurd) Afghan has hundreds
the US cannot effectively deal with the Taliban without far more NATO help and an agressively compliant Paki govt...period...there is a lot of politicing to do to 'win' Afghanistan...otherwise I'm affraid it is out of reach
Kadima has pretty much maintained a policy of doing nothing over the past three years. They responded to attacks with botched wars without really changing the strategic position of Israel, except maybe for the worse. Personally I think they're a useless party without an ideology.
The thing about Afghanistan is that they have really no history of a significant central government & tribalism is the order of the day, making our job much harder.
Failure though is unthinkable, this is where the 9/11 attack germinated.
The Taliban harbored Al Quaeda & the rest of the the Muslim War needs to underststand that, similar conduct brings misery.
I had a US Army Captain friend get sent to Afghanistan a few years ago. He's been back for quite some time, and is now retired from the military, but while he was still there, he came home on leave for a few weeks, and I took him out for drinks.
I asked him to do something for me when he got back to Kabul- I wanted a rug. He said he could get a wide variety of rugs for me for cheap- the textile, manufactured type. I said, "No- I don't want you to do that, Captain. I want a handmade rug. I want you to help one of these women with my money. Buy a rug from a woman who needs the help to support her family. And find one in blue."
He did. My beautiful Afghan rug is behind me right now, including it's little intentional flaw. I don't know the woman who made it, but I think of her often. I hope she's okay, and her family is better today than they were 10 years ago.
And if we cut on Afghanistan... will my gesture have been in vain? I couldn't bear to think of it. Victory might be difficult and the harder road, but turning back, for me, seems unconscionable.
The Channel 1 poll gave Kadima 30 seats, Likud 28 seats, and Labor 13 seats. Yisrael Beiteinu is predicted to win `14 seats, according to the poll.
We'll know for sure tomorrow.
I remember one election when I went to sleep knowing Peres (or maybe it was Barak) was going to be the PM, and waking up next morning to find out that Bibi is the PM. These polls aren't exact science.
The Great Game continues, but it’s no game for the people who are fighting it.
We can win in Afghanistan. Not easily, not cheaply, but we can.
The first step is from the top down to show unwavering resolve and dedication to doing so. That the safety and security of the United State has been shown to be related to Afghan stability. This alone makes it worthwhile, with the additional benefit of creating a free, friendly and stable ally in Central Asia.
It worth it if we take it seriously and not a game. Unfortunately the signals from the Administration are that is a game to be played for domestic and international political gains, and not being taken seriously with the necessary resolve to make it worthwhile.
However, due to the dramatic rise in support of the Likud and Israel Beiteinu, it seemed that Likud chairman Binyamin Netanyahu would have a better chance than Kadima head Tzipi Livni of forming the next coalition.
However, due to the dramatic rise in support of the Likud and Israel Beiteinu, it seemed that Likud chairman Binyamin Netanyahu would have a better chance than Kadima head Tzipi Livni of forming the next coalition.
In order to answer the question posed by Mr. Yon, answers to several other questions must accompany it.
1) What, exactly, are we seeking to accomplish in Afghanistan?
2) Why do we want to accomplish #1?
3) What is our opportunity cost (i.e. are there bigger fish to fry)?
It is not reasonable to expect the same type of success in Afghanistan as was seen in Iraq; the Iraqis were already a fairly integrated society whereas, as I understand it from Mr. Yon's article, Afghanistan is like "Jurassic Park", that is... it is savage. If the goal in Afghanistan is to annihilate the Taliban, that might be feasible; if it is to institute a civilization, then Afghanistan is not worth the money and lives that would be spent to that end.
If the purpose is to assure the security of American lives from attacks by Islamic terrorists, then I'd contend that our focus should be elsewhere; it should be on the ideological and financial foundations that support the global jihad (Saudi Arabia and Iran). By trying to fight this battle by working our way up the jihadi "chain-of-command", we will accrue a much greater amount of debt and casualties and risk prolonging this battle for even more generations.
I think Mr. Yon addresses the opportunity cost quite well in terms of how the regional power-brokers will squeeze every penny out of us while we're fighting in Afghanistan and it would be a massive strategic blunder to discount it.
Most of Afghans drugs end up in Europe, not the USA. Ours comes mostly from the south. So 'legalizing" drugs in the USA will do little to cure the Afghan problem
The heroin comes from South America? I think not. And, there is some evidence that drug money from South America has been used to finance terror activities
Now, according to he hard left, we invade countries so that we can rape them of their wealth. Which is why we go into those mad storehouses of riches like Afghanistan, Somalia, Haiti...
We can win in Afghanistan. Not easily, not cheaply, but we can.
The first step is from the top down to show unwavering resolve and dedication to doing so. That the safety and security of the United State has been shown to be related to Afghan stability. This alone makes it worthwhile, with the additional benefit of creating a free, friendly and stable ally in Central Asia.
It worth it if we take it seriously and not a game. Unfortunately the signals from the Administration are that is a game to be played for domestic and international political gains, and not being taken seriously with the necessary resolve to make it worthwhile.
then we have to get there and plan to stay there for a hell of a long time...it will be brutal trying to get back and forth...a nightmare of logistics with a semi hostile Paki govt nipping at our heels...not impossible but unlikely
And I admit my support for victory in Afghanistan is emotional, and not rational. But after learning of the atrocities committed against women under the Taliban, I hope my emotion is at least understandable. I don't want to fail the women and girls of Afghanistan, because we've already seen us fail them once. No one cared about what was happening to then until 9/11. I don't want to repeat that.
The heroin comes from South America? I think not. And, there is some evidence that drug money from South America has been used to finance terror activities
And I admit my support for victory in Afghanistan is emotional, and not rational. But after learning of the atrocities committed against women under the Taliban, I hope my emotion is at least understandable. I don't want to fail the women and girls of Afghanistan, because we've already seen us fail them once. No one cared about what was happening to then until 9/11. I don't want to repeat that.
While we don't know who will win the election in Israel and/or who can form a "workable" coalition, we do know who the LOSER is. Labor. It seems those who cast their lot with a rapprochement with the Palestinians have lost.
We can win in Afghanistan. Not easily, not cheaply, but we can.
The first step is from the top down to show unwavering resolve and dedication to doing so. That the safety and security of the United State has been shown to be related to Afghan stability. This alone makes it worthwhile, with the additional benefit of creating a free, friendly and stable ally in Central Asia.
It worth it if we take it seriously and not a game. Unfortunately the signals from the Administration are that is a game to be played for domestic and international political gains, and not being taken seriously with the necessary resolve to make it worthwhile.
The part I found interesting in this piece was his assertion that we can 'punch down Al Qaeda' for far less than we're spending in Afghanistan. If that's true, it's the first time I've heard anyone say it.
In that part of the world, I have a hard time believing that it is true.
On the other hand, defeating Al Qaeda is a lot like playing a serious game of 'what-a-mole'. Knock them down in one place and they pop up somewhere else, so being able to respond quickly without a huge support structure would seem to make sense.
In order to answer the question posed by Mr. Yon, answers to several other questions must accompany it.
1) What, exactly, are we seeking to accomplish in Afghanistan?
2) Why do we want to accomplish #1?
3) What is our opportunity cost (i.e. are there bigger fish to fry)?
It is not reasonable to expect the same type of success in Afghanistan as was seen in Iraq; the Iraqis were already a fairly integrated society whereas, as I understand it from Mr. Yon's article, Afghanistan is like "Jurassic Park", that is... it is savage. If the goal in Afghanistan is to annihilate the Taliban, that might be feasible; if it is to institute a civilization, then Afghanistan is not worth the money and lives that would be spent to that end.
If the purpose is to assure the security of American lives from attacks by Islamic terrorists, then I'd contend that our focus should be elsewhere; it should be on the ideological and financial foundations that support the global jihad (Saudi Arabia and Iran). By trying to fight this battle by working our way up the jihadi "chain-of-command", we will accrue a much greater amount of debt and casualties and risk prolonging this battle for even more generations.
I think Mr. Yon addresses the opportunity cost quite well in terms of how the regional power-brokers will squeeze every penny out of us while we're fighting in Afghanistan and it would be a massive strategic blunder to discount it.
Thank you- you did a better job of articulating some of my concerns than I did.
While I agree with Shamuta's sentiments, I am coming to feel that the economic situation throughout the world is forcing us to reconsider how much of the responsibility to try to correct the problems everywhere is ours. The lack of real support from NATO, the ludicrous behavior of the UN, etc, all have me feeling that pulling back and taking better care of our own might be the thing to do.
A fundamental issue in Afghanistan lies in the culture of Islam itself. The Pathan are rooted in a pre-Islamic barbarism which Islam has allowed to continue. Until Islam grows up (matures as a religion of the God of Abraham) and deals with its own, the Pathan will continue their animal ways.
Very early on, Islam became more and more interested in sheer imperialism. It originally denied entrance into the religion to non-Arabs.
Later it became Salafist, interested only in the appearance of belief -- legalism. Tribes like the Pathan were allowed in, and were not required to measure up, past performing the genuflections. No spirituality was taught. No rough edges were rounded off. Cultural crap was acceptable. Still is.
Say what you want about the medieval European Christian Church, it functioned as a moderating influence.
As a religion, Islam has a thousand-pound albatross around its neck. The weight may kill Islam ... and us with it.
I had a US Army Captain friend get sent to Afghanistan a few years ago. He's been back for quite some time, and is now retired from the military, but while he was still there, he came home on leave for a few weeks, and I took him out for drinks.
I asked him to do something for me when he got back to Kabul- I wanted a rug. He said he could get a wide variety of rugs for me for cheap- the textile, manufactured type. I said, "No- I don't want you to do that, Captain. I want a handmade rug. I want you to help one of these women with my money. Buy a rug from a woman who needs the help to support her family. And find one in blue."
He did. My beautiful Afghan rug is behind me right now, including it's little intentional flaw. I don't know the woman who made it, but I think of her often. I hope she's okay, and her family is better today than they were 10 years ago.
And if we cut on Afghanistan... will my gesture have been in vain? I couldn't bear to think of it. Victory might be difficult and the harder road, but turning back, for me, seems unconscionable.
You have a fantastically huge heart. Not to sound soppy but I feel like a cold hearted bastard when you tell your heart warming stories.
Support Poppies?
Here in southern California (it's the state flower) I planted three seeds two years ago and could have had an entire yard of them if I hadn't brutally cut them back!
They are WEEDS out here.
I have several addicted morning doves who do nothing but eat poppy seeds until they cannot walk upright and must dip a wing as a crutch!
If it were a cash crop I could be rich!
You've got--BIRD SEED! Makes any backyard an instant aviary! Of course, your life might resemble a scene from a Hitchcock movie--imagine all those foul-tempered birds flocking to your yard anxious for a fix.
The Channel 1 poll gave Kadima 30 seats, Likud 28 seats, and Labor 13 seats. Yisrael Beiteinu is predicted to win `14 seats, according to the poll.
The difference of a few thousand votes either way could mean a serious shift of seats, which are doled out in a proportional method. The only certainty is that Labor lost big.
But Afghanistan was much more civilized before the Soviets and Taliban devastated them. Not to our standards, perhaps, but they had it fairly well considering the state of that nation today. They can get back to that point, and perhaps achieve more, but not if we abandon them.
You've got--BIRD SEED! Makes any backyard an instant aviary! Of course, your life might resemble a scene from a Hitchcock movie--imagine all those foul-tempered birds flocking to your yard anxious for a fix.
I don't mind the flocks of birds, I just hate the loud obnoxious blue jays.
You only have to look at how excited girls are there to go to school to want to make the effort to establish some safety for them. There are a lot of people there hoping the US can bolster them up.
The world is safer when these despotic groups are pushed into caves.
The part I found interesting in this piece was his assertion that we can 'punch down Al Qaeda' for far less than we're spending in Afghanistan. If that's true, it's the first time I've heard anyone say it.
In that part of the world, I have a hard time believing that it is true.
On the other hand, defeating Al Qaeda is a lot like playing a serious game of 'what-a-mole'. Knock them down in one place and they pop up somewhere else, so being able to respond quickly without a huge support structure would seem to make sense.
"Yet there is something about our commitment in Afghanistan that feels wrong, as if a bear trap is hidden under the sand" - Michael Yon
There's ample historical record there to provide him with such intuition. If I recall correctly, the KGB's local officer in Afghanistan made similar observations early in their involvement there. I recall reading about his pleas for additional troops, which in the end made little difference. While there are substantial differences between the way the Russians handled Afghanistan, and the way we're handling it, many of the factors that spelled eventual failure for them, may also be applied to us.
While our military is doubtless better equipped and trained, we still have the strategic disadvantage of geography, as Michael noted in his post.
I'm with him. I don't believe we are destined for failure in Afghanistan, but it's foolishness to believe our mission there will be complete in 10, 20, or even 50 years. So how badly do we need it, in the overall scheme of things? You've got me there. I couldn't hazard a guess. I like reading about our troops defeating the Taliban, but I hate the idea of our soldiers wrapped up in an extremely long term low-level conflict with little (if ANY) chance of it ever being concluded.
But Afghanistan was much more civilized before the Soviets and Taliban devastated them. Not to our standards, perhaps, but they had it fairly well considering the state of that nation today. They can get back to that point, and perhaps achieve more, but not if we abandon them.
Yep, they were on a reasonably decent path from the 60s through 1979. Of course, the moonbats always blame the US for everything wrong with Afghanistan, and kinda sorta forget that unpleasantness with the Russians.
The difference of a few thousand votes either way could mean a serious shift of seats, which are doled out in a proportional method. The only certainty is that Labor lost big.
It's between Kadima and Likud. Livni and Bibi.
So many countries, so many elections, so many partys. Please remind me ,, in Israel, "Labor" is the left, correct?
I too agree with Sharm's sentiment; but these atrocities happen all over the globe and while bad, they don't warrant the time, money, and ultimately the blood and limbs of our soldiers. If we focus on killing the threat, then international aid and humanitarian groups can do their work unfettered to bring about the social changes that most of us would like to see. Its an issue of 1) the right tool for the right job and 2) that our troops' lives are not expendable commodities, they (myself, at one time, included) swore to defend our constitution and to defend our populace, not to introduce philosophical and social change to every place on the planet.
Yep, they were on a reasonably decent path from the 60s through 1979. Of course, the moonbats always blame the US for everything wrong with Afghanistan, and kinda sorta forget that unpleasantness with the Russians.
The moonbats think the Soviets did nothing but good for the Afghanis.
Yep, they were on a reasonably decent path from the 60s through 1979. Of course, the moonbats always blame the US for everything wrong with Afghanistan, and kinda sorta forget that unpleasantness with the Russians.
It's incredible that everything seems to have fallen apart in and around 1979...
It's amazing how good I (we?) can get at raeding what is meant in spite of hasty typos- I knew 'zackly whatchu ment!
I know the feeling! There have been several posters with misspelled nics that I didn't notice until someone pointed them out. The one that comes to mind is 'Opnion'.
Nope...it's easy Bailout style GMAC financing...1 Billion down, 1 Billion a month, for 1 Billions years! And, then once Afghanistan is stable, they will promptly elect the local Taliban warlord as the new leader...Afghanistan is a toilet on two levels: actual and metaphorically
Labor is center-left. Kadima is center-right. Likud is right. Yisrael Beitenu is far right. Meretz is far left. Shas is a religious party and doesn't fit neatly on the left-right spectrum.
Afghanistan isn't worth all that much. It's about the people, Dammit!
So what's it worth to defeat the Taliban so that they can not infest another country?
What's it worth to put these terrorists and thugs down where they can't hurt anyone any more?
What's it worth teaching the other wannabees that we're serious about defending our Western Culture?
And what would it be worth to have one of their number thank us?
I say we go after these sub-human creatures. Do it, regardless of who gives them shelter. Show them no mercy, for they have already shown that they won't be merciful to us. The Geneva conventions are a nicety that we simply can't observe here. They assume that the other side is just as interested in survival as we are. These people are dying and they don't care how. So let's make sure it happens on our terms, not theirs.
Israel is turning right while the USA is turning hard left. Hum?
Think of your youth. There was a neighborhhod bully, but there was also a kid in the neighborhood that was a good guy and was as big and tough as the bully. When the good guy moved away, YOU found other ways to defend yourself
Just keep on whacking, whenever & wherever. Remember when Clinton refused to whack-a-mole, and where that led us?
Yeah, that's what bothers me about the idea of leaving Afghanistan. We tried that in the '80's and Al Qaeda popped up there...and we lost two buildings and 3000 people.
Al Qaeda has a presence in the FATA of Pakistan now. If we leave and stop 'whacking' them, how hard would it be to relocate back to Afghanistan and have another go at us?
I agree, that it is possible for them to be "re-civilized", but the question is how and by whom, and furthermore, is the military the right way to go about it? In terms of overall efficacy of our actions there, we will get nothing done if we don't turn off the spigot of finances and ideology behind the global jihad... imagine trying to dry a bathtub with the faucet still on... In short, deal with the source of the problem FIRST, then mop up the consequences of the problem.
Labor is center-left. Kadima is center-right. Likud is right. Yisrael Beitenu is far right. Meretz is far left. Shas is a religious party and doesn't fit neatly on the left-right spectrum.
Thanks , thats right ,, I forgot about Meretz. I had Labor in mind as far left. Thanks for the primer
Unless of course one listens to the antisemites at CNN -- then all the parties are "hard-liners" and on the "far right" and "there are no Leftists in Israel." yeah, sure, the flipping, liars...
Labor is center-left. Kadima is center-right. Likud is right. Yisrael Beitenu is far right. Meretz is far left. Shas is a religious party and doesn't fit neatly on the left-right spectrum.
It would seem that Palestinian suicide bombers put Bibi in against Peres years ago. And now Hamas by swinging voters far right to Yisrael Beitenu might have pushed Livni ahead of Bibi. Karma?
The mistake we made in Iraq was in not arresting the Democrat Party for treason before we went in. And in not tasking an Ohio with the job of suppressing the surrounding nations to discourage them from shipping arms to the conflict. If you ship arms to our enemies, you are equally our enemy.
Don't ignore the fact that Jimmy Carter was the source of the "moles" to begin with. Had he not limp-wristedly failed in destroying the Iranian thugs...
There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jump start the economy.
PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9, 2009
President Obama says that "economists from across the political spectrum agree" on the need for massive government spending to stimulate the economy. In fact, many economists disagree. Hundreds of them, including Nobel laureates and other prominent scholars, have signed a statement that the Cato Institute has placed in major newspapers across the United States.
The Geneva conventions are a nicety that we simply can't observe here.
Actually, the conventions don't apply to most of the situations we encounter. The fighters are not in uniform, not fighting on behalf of a signatory country, and wantonly attacking civilians. All reasons they could be summarily shot on the battle field.
Can Likud and tha far-righerters form a coalition government?
Lets see who actually gets the most seats but it would seem Likud might have a better chance than Kadima, but Israeli politics is indeed a strange place. Wait till you see what the religious groups start demanding for their support?
I don't disagree. I just wanted to bring their more recent history into the discussion, because they do have some modernity in living memory they can strive to recapture. It's a tribal culture, much like Iraq, but I wonder if the tactic of winning hearts and minds would go just as far- getting Afghanis to push back themselves against these assholes. It doesn't help they hide in Pakistan. But the children now are getting schools and things have improved. I hope it continues and fear it won't if we abandon them. Without Western help- they will succumb to the financed jihadis.
The mistake we made in Iraq was in not arresting the Democrat Party for treason before we went in. And in not tasking an Ohio with the job of suppressing the surrounding nations to discourage them from shipping arms to the conflict. If you ship arms to our enemies, you are equally our enemy.
Act accordingly.
That I can go with! It is pretty much what I meant by hitting anyone who messes with us HARD! upthread. I am 61, and have seen Vietnam, Soviet Afghanistan, and all the little small to medium sh@t that has gone on in my lifetime. Like someone else said, screw the Geneva Convention, take off the kid gloves and our put our bigass stompin boots on. Until and unless we are willing to do that we are going to be bled white, and what is happening right this minute on Wall Street tells me we can't take all that much more!
I don't disagree. I just wanted to bring their more recent history into the discussion, because they do have some modernity in living memory they can strive to recapture. It's a tribal culture, much like Iraq, but I wonder if the tactic of winning hearts and minds would go just as far- getting Afghanis to push back themselves against these assholes. It doesn't help they hide in Pakistan. But the children now are getting schools and things have improved. I hope it continues and fear it won't if we abandon them. Without Western help- they will succumb to the financed jihadis.
I feel for you...and the people over there...in practical terms it would take a massive effort that may or may not work...maybe it is up to them in the end...but one thing is for sure is that every time you post I will be thinking of a blue rug and just what it means...we cannot do everything for everybody...sadly
I forget the source, but a recent interview was heard to say "Someday I hope Afghanistan can become a Third World Nation"...that's what the challenge is there.
If we stayed, it would be 30 years. It's a generational problem.
Does this photo link work?
The photo of the poppies (with the milkweed in the foreground) shows what one tiny seed does in less than 1 year!
[Link: home.earthlink.net...]
Wow - that link works, and all the plants and flowers are fabulous!
That poppy is sold here as seeds as well, 'Californian Poppy', in all sorts of colours.
Its been too wet and cold last summer, but in a dry, sunny spot they go on flowering up to the first frost. Mind - their seeds are not as harmful as those of the Oriental Poppy, which btw is huge!
I feel for you...and the people over there...in practical terms it would take a massive effort that may or may not work...maybe it is up to them in the end...but one thing is for sure is that every time you post I will be thinking of a blue rug and just what it means...we cannot do everything for everybody...sadly
True- but we can strive to show kindness to each other, and sometimes a little thing to us might be a big thing to the recipient.
If the U.S. and NATO forces abandon Afghanistan, then it's virtually guaranteed that it will turn into an even worse failed, narco, terrorist state...run by "religious" war/drug-lords.
Our goal needs to be defined within the scope of the military's capabilities and mission. To the extent that killing Al Qaeda and/or the Taliban is within said scope; then let the bullets fly! If not, while the atrocities are lamentable, they are not worth the lives of our brave young men and women. My central point is that IF committing troops/money to the Afghan effort detracts from our time/attention at hitting the jihadi's at their source, then it is not the right approach, and ultimately, will lead to many more atrocities.
If Mr.Yon's observations about our dependence on the neighboring countries is true, then those neighbors have the capacity to create a true quagmire (cutting supply lines etc...) that the MSM will actually have a basis for their shilling (not that they would shill against "The One").
There's nothing there that I fundamentally disagree with, but there is no way you are going to get the Obamanation to fight that kind of war against anti-American Jihadi "warriors". He agrees with them on so many issues that it'd be like cutting off his own hand. We'll be luckey if he keeps pressing the fight anywhere.
I am so damned depressed to see where this country has fallen in my lifetime.
Obama told Anderson Cooper we are at war with SOME terrorist groups.
True- but we can strive to show kindness to each other, and sometimes a little thing to us might be a big thing to the recipient.
the Taliban are an extremely wicked bunch...homegrown and tribal as has been pointed out...the answers are way over my head...Afghanistan is a black hole where even a kind gesture is repulsed...what is not hopeless is hope and a firm belief that human goodness will prevail...somehow/somewhere
If the U.S. and NATO forces abandon Afghanistan, then it's virtually guaranteed that it will turn into an even worse failed, narco, terrorist state...run by "religious" war/drug-lords.
I hope our president was sincere in his desire to clear out these rat holes in Pakistan, I really do. That these rat holes remain is bad for Afghanistan, India and Pakistan too. I truly hope between the three powers, a consensus can be reached to do something about it. It could go a long way in helping Afghanistan, the region, and the US in achieving the objectives you laid out.
the Taliban are an extremely wicked bunch...homegrown and tribal as has been pointed out...the answers are way over my head...Afghanistan is a black hole where even a kind gesture is repulsed...what is not hopeless is hope and a firm belief that human goodness will prevail...somehow/somewhere
Read Lone Survivor. An entire Afghan village risk the lives of everyone in the village to save one SEAL, Marcus Luttrell.
I hope our president was sincere in his desire to clear out these rat holes in Pakistan, I really do. That these rat holes remain is bad for Afghanistan, India and Pakistan too. I truly hope between the three powers, a consensus can be reached to do something about it. It could go a long way in helping Afghanistan, the region, and the US in achieving the objectives you laid out.
no guts no glory...we may have to seize Paki nukes someday
Oh, I haven't. One, I lived through it, had Iranian associated clients in the late 70's and learned much from their opinions. Second, I highly recommend Philip Pilevsky's I Accuse: Jimmy Carter and the Rise of Militant Islam, which I have posted about before (07 Copywrite).
To avoid a repeat of Vietnam in the ME, Nixon set the US ME foreign policy in the early 70's by recognizing the Shah of Iran, Reza Pahlavi, as our supported power broker in the region - to keep the peace. Sub-sailor Jimmah torpedoed that policy by allowing the Shah to fall, among other failures.
Militant Islam must know, and never forget, that our policy is to use intelligent and decisive whacking, and that we will never stop whacking when we determine that it's in our best interest.
This policy has been proven over the last 1400 years - sometimes they retreat, but they never give up the dream, do they?
There's nothing there that I fundamentally disagree with, but there is no way you are going to get the Obamanation to fight that kind of war against anti-American Jihadi "warriors". He agrees with them on so many issues that it'd be like cutting off his own hand. We'll be luckey if he keeps pressing the fight anywhere.
I am so damned depressed to see where this country has fallen in my lifetime.
Second you on that. However, there are a number of folks who have said that if Obama careens the ship so far left, there will be an appropriate response from the right. We all know this is going to be painful, but I still have faith that America is going to wake up - either independently, or - God forbid - shaken awake by another attack.
Obama says, "I am the eternal optimist," and that "over time, people respond to civility and a rational argument." This is not optimism but indescriminate passivism and I think over time, our country will again hunger for substance over style. Hopefully sooner than later.
it's high on my list...I wish there was some equation that converted hope into success
First and foremost is in word and deed show that we are dedicated to success in Afghanistan. Then deliver.
The Afghanis both sides know what's up in Washington. They know who's in charge. The enemy will push to drive causuties high enough for Obama to pull the plug. Our friends will with hold committing because if we do pull the plug everyone in there family will die if they show to much support to the US.
Yes, it would nice for them to take a stand. But the region does not work that way. In the Afghan mind outsiders come and go, some bad, some good. Family is what matters.
My problem with him is regarding balls, rather than desire.
One can have desire all day, and in the evening ...
I'll give him some foreign policy room for now, but at present, it appears that he's just going to study everything until we forget about it and hope it just goes away.
michael yon says one of the big concerns of the troops is whether O has their backs.
whether he has what it takes to stand up to russia and pakistan who are causing trouble.
if there is no resolve from the c.i.c. there will be victory.
(our troops are already uncomfortable because of O )
not good.
Intro: "Afghanistan, a war which cost the lives of 15 thousand young Soviet conscripts, and an estimated 1 million Afghanis. ... The United States supplied billions of dollars of weapons to unlikely allies --Islamic fundamentalists."
re: #207 Maximu§
I'm with you, our son arrived in theater in Afghanistan just in time to enjoy his Christmas at Bagram before heading out and building a new FOB near the Paki border.
What truly angers me is that while our politicians postulate, bloviate and mentally masturbate, our kids, spouses and friends are in Harm's Way, wondering 'who's driving the bus' and truly 'who has their backs' here in the US...
My concern with Afghanistan is that it will take decades to turn the evolution of tribal beliefs, tribal governing, and the drug trade around. I do not believe the current administration will be given the long term approval by our congress to stay there to impose a lasting and significant reversal of the Afghanistan culture. I firmly believe that the Taliban terrorists need to be rooted out of the country and Osama Bin Laden captured. But, unless we can get Pakistan stabilized as well, the terrorists will just keep hopscotching back and forth, if we suppress the military presence or pull out.
An aggressive military strategy in curtailing the tribal Pakistan terrorists is equally just as important, if not, it will be fruitless in securing this entire region of terrorists.
Obama has yet to establish or announce a strategic and tactical plan to accomplish any of these objectives. He's still in the fact finding mode. Will the American people and the democratic congress, support a prolonged incursion in that region?
Just having the military there...is not enough.
Answer to question: Nothing, Send the Air Force, Better yet, let the Taliban build some infrastructure with Russian and Chinese money, then send the Air Force.
We are not leaving until somebody produces a body. The body of OBL is all we need to head home. We will leave the calling card of the US military in case they want to f**k with us again and get 8 more years of our foot up their collective asses.
Answer to question: Nothing, Send the Air Force, Better yet, let the Taliban build some infrastructure with Russian and Chinese money, then send the Air Force.
PESHAWAR: Girls’ education remained the prime victim in Swat where over 119,248 females in private and public sector schools have been affected while 122 schools for females and 65 others for boys destroyed since the ongoing violence erupted in the town, a study disclosed.
Two police stations, 12 police posts, 80 video centres, around 300 CD shops, 25 barbershops, 24 bridges, 15 basic health units, an electricity grid station and a main gas supply line were either destroyed or severely damaged by the militants during the past few months’ violence in once the tourist heaven.
Two cable networks were closed while another was blown up in the district during the recent past.
The study carried out by some non-government organisations reveals that 700 hotels were closed in the area that made 30,000 workers jobless.
[snip]
Swat is in the northwest provinces of Pakistan, not Afghanistan, but Taliban and their supporters dominate the area. That's a lot of infrastructure, no?
I wanted to input to Michael Yon and all on here about Afghanistan:
WE CANNOT FAIL ON AFGHANISTAN!
The British failed the Afghans. The Soviet Union failed big time. Even the Pakistanis failed Afghanistan for decades.
America should NOT fail Afghanistan nor fail the Afghan people who wanted a better life and a better country after all these years of turmoil, Taliban and wars.
We cannot give up on them. Failure is NOT an option or a necessity.
I guess I am too old school when it comes to fighting a war now days. If I was making the calls over there I would use some of the things we did in Nam. Some good old fashion carpet bombing, drop some daisy cutters on the remote hideouts and training areas and some napalm just to make sure everything is cooked right. As for collateral damage...F*CK IT SH*T HAPPENS! These people understand that kind of sh*t. These goat humpers have never been civilized and never will be, send them to Allah.
We need a combination of daisycutters and bags of money. This is not a war of strike and hold -the terrian is not sutiable. Spec Ops and not occupying forces are needed. The key to this entire region, including Pakistan, is divide and counquer. The Pashtun tribes in the high country do not like foreigners -including the AQ "foreigners" (mainly from Egypt, Algeria, Europe, and Sudan), but they have shown to have loyalty to those who protect thier enclaves. The worse thing we can do is turn this over to the CIA. The Seals and Green Beret are more than capable of winning this war over time. We just have to have 2 things (a) resolve and money.
Well you can kiss the money part of your plan goodbye, Obamarama and the Dems just spent it.
Can you believe this crap...he hasn't been in office a full month and everything is screwed up. I can hardly wait to see what things are like after his 1st 100 days.
I know the feeling! There have been several posters with misspelled nics that I didn't notice until someone pointed them out. The one that comes to mind is 'Opnion'.
Frank says: