Dutch MP Barred from Entering Britain

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Anti-Islam Dutch MP Geert Wilders has been barred from entering Britain, after a protest was lodged by Muslim House of Lords member Nazir Ahmed.

Yes, it’s a disgrace. Geert Wilders has the same right to free speech as anyone else, and the government of Britain is demonstrating once again that they’ve completely lost their way in a maze of multicultural contradictions.

However, Wilders himself does not deserve to be called an icon of free speech, since he explicitly wants to ban the Koran and make Islam illegal in Europe; in other words, he wants to take away other people’s freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and that is simply wrong. Book banning is what totalitarians do, not believers in free speech.

Also note that Wilders has recently announced he plans to form an alliance with the neofascist Belgian party Vlaams Belang.

So while I denounce Britain’s decision, I can’t support Wilders either while he maintains these positions and associations. Britain is wrong, and Wilders is also wrong. It’s a bad situation all around.

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275 comments

1 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:24:47pm

I was so hoping that Geert would have a modicum of reason behind that wild hair, but apparently not.

2 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:24:59pm

He is lucky, the food sucks there anyway

3 screaming_eagle  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:25:10pm

How long until shit like that happens here in the US?

4 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:26:18pm

re: #3 screaming_eagle

How long until shit like that happens here in the US?

Not until the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. (Keeping in mind that after the 2nd falls, the rest are sure to follow.)

5 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:26:26pm
6 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:26:56pm

re: #1 Thanos

Sadly, Geert has been headed in the wrong direction over the past year or two. I don't expect him to change course.

7 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:26:57pm

re: #5 MandyManners

Gordon's hair didn't want the competition.

Wow, he's got a Euro-Blago.

8 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:27:30pm
9 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:27:44pm

re: #3 screaming_eagle

How long until shit like that happens here in the US?

Depends on if the jihadis decide to step more out front. The Gaza *protests* are an inkling of what we can expect, imo.

10 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:28:06pm

re: #3 screaming_eagle

The answer is that Discovery Institute, Stormfront, WCW, Answer, Code Pink, and every other nutball hate group in our society has full voice and access. Not anytime soon, people saying otherwise have an agenda.

11 screaming_eagle  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:28:28pm

re: #4 CyanSnowHawk

Not until the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. (Keeping in mind that after the 2nd falls, the rest are sure to follow.)

You mean House bill 45?

12 Colonel Panik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:28:50pm

re: #2 Nevergiveup

He is lucky, the food sucks there anyway

What? You don't like Prime Rib and Yorkshire pudding? "Spotted Dick" and "Bubble and Squeak"? Haggis with "Tatties and Neeps"? Fish and Chips? Shepard's Pie?

13 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:28:51pm
14 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:29:03pm

re: #5 MandyManners

Rowan William's eyebrows are oppressing them all.

15 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:29:10pm

re: #11 screaming_eagle

You mean House bill 45?

I don't think HR 45 has a chance.
Please God....

16 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:29:27pm

re: #11 screaming_eagle

You mean House bill 45?

I'm talking full repeal, not the inch that they are currently trying to take.

17 bulwrk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:29:29pm

re: #5 MandyManners

If Geert's Gordon's and Blogo's hair got into fight who's would win?

18 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:30:02pm
19 Spiritualized  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:30:03pm

We have nobody left.

Why did he have to join the dark side.

20 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:30:22pm

re: #17 bulwrk

If Geert's Gordon's and Blogo's hair got into fight who's would win?

Don King

21 odhran  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:30:23pm

Two wrongs don't make a right, but still...

The alleged reason is rather pathetic though;

“threaten community harmony and therefore public security”

Didn't Nazir Ahmed "threaten community harmony" by threatening to mobilize 10,000 fellow Muslims?

22 Racer X  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:30:26pm

Britain has way more problems that Geert Wilders.

"Here's my lunch money. Please don't Jihad."

23 LGoPs  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:30:46pm

The West is sliding into a multi-cultural abyss of its own making.......

24 screaming_eagle  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:31:03pm

re: #15 Wishing

I don't think HR 45 has a chance.
Please God....

I don't either, but I want to see them try it. Might as well have the fight.

25 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:31:26pm

re: #17 bulwrk

If Geert's Gordon's and Blogo's hair got into fight who's would win?

Silky Pony

26 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:31:37pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Rowan William's eyebrows are oppressing them all.

I bet he uses mousse on them.

27 screaming_eagle  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:31:47pm

re: #16 CyanSnowHawk

I'm talking full repeal, not the inch that they are currently trying to take.

inches turn into feet which leads to yards and on to miles . .. .. .

28 bulwrk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:31:54pm

re: #20 Thanos

Oh hands down his is in a league all its own.

29 enoughalready  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:32:09pm

Ummm, is the problem that it was Lord Ahmed that lodged the protest? And why is it wrong to not let Mr Wilder into the UK? I don't quite get that. He is not a british citizen, hence he has no absolute right to enter the country. They aren't exactly shutting him up so I don't quite see how free speech fits into this.

30 Colonel Panik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:32:51pm
31 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:33:43pm

When will the Europeans start to take a more comprehensive, intellectual look at American principles? That limiting speech doesn't solve the underlying issues, but only masks them? That continuing with their anti-American sentiments makes it more difficult to consider alternative options to dealing with their issues?

We don't have everything perfect here in America, but what we did get right has allowed bigots to remain on the fringes where they belong, not masking their bigotry and gaining large following that legitimize them.

I know a lot of individual Europeans love America and Americans. What is wrong with the rest of them though? Embrace free speech! Embrace individual rights! And maybe from there some solutions to european issues could be found.

32 Alberta Oil Peon  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:34:17pm

Well, the obvious answer is for the Netherlands to declare Nazir Ahmed persona non grata.

/He probably is, anyway.

33 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:34:23pm

Totally off topic:

Today in the mail I received a dog toy for my 10 month old Redbone coon dog. The toy is 9 out of possible 10 for toughness.
She had the stuffing out of it in less than 2 minutes.
I think I will buy her some tire rubber.
I give up.

34 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:34:44pm

re: #21 odhran

threaten community harmony

Sounds like a fantasy kingdom where blue birds fly and unicorns frolic.

35 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:34:49pm

re: #29 enoughalready

Ummm, is the problem that it was Lord Ahmed that lodged the protest? And why is it wrong to not let Mr Wilder into the UK? I don't quite get that. He is not a british citizen, hence he has no absolute right to enter the country. They aren't exactly shutting him up so I don't quite see how free speech fits into this.

I might be getting this wrong, and hope someone overseas will correct me if so, but if you are a citizen of an EU country in theory you are supposed to be able to travel anywhere, just as people can go from state to state here. At least that's what the "euro anti-jihadists" say is one of the drawbacks of allowing Turkey into the EU.

36 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:35:30pm

re: #29 enoughalready

He is not a british citizen, hence he has no absolute right to enter the country.

Actually, as an EU citizen, he would ordinarily have an unfettered right to enter. He's being kept out, specifically, because of fear of Islamist threats.

37 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:35:32pm
Book banning is what totalitarians do, not believers in free speech.

Amen. Amayn. Ameen.

38 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:36:08pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

Europe is culturally and intellectually compressed in a cage of their own history. That's why Don Rumsfeld's remark about "Old Europe" stung them so much.

39 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:36:44pm

From reading the online Brit rags, it sure appears that a lot of them are fed up with their own country. However, aside from emigrate, all they appear to be able to do is whine about it. My god, when did England get the genital guillotine?

40 opnion  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:36:44pm

re: #29 enoughalready

Ummm, is the problem that it was Lord Ahmed that lodged the protest? And why is it wrong to not let Mr Wilder into the UK? I don't quite get that. He is not a british citizen, hence he has no absolute right to enter the country. They aren't exactly shutting him up so I don't quite see how free speech fits into this.

The problem is that they are both EU countries & Wilders is a member of Pariment with no criminal record . There is on precedent for this & is obviously a bow to pressure from the Muslim MP & others.
Imagine if Holland refused entry to the British Muslim MP.

41 Dustyvet  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:36:45pm

re: #30 Colonel Panik

Cat "Yusuf Islam" Stevens sings!

Maybe if we get lucky Cat "Yusuf Islam" Stevens will bury himself in the deep end of catbox.

/*spit*

42 Colonel Panik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:37:07pm

re: #29 enoughalready

Ummm, is the problem that it was Lord Ahmed that lodged the protest? And why is it wrong to not let Mr Wilder into the UK? I don't quite get that. He is not a british citizen, hence he has no absolute right to enter the country. They aren't exactly shutting him up so I don't quite see how free speech fits into this.

I believe that EU MP's are supposed to have freedom of movement throughout the EU. IF this is the case the Dutch should retaliate by barring any Brit EU MP's from entering the Netherlands.


Dutch foreign minister Maxime Verhagen has lodged formal objections with the British embassy in The Hague and with his British counterpart over the unprecedented barring of an EU-parliamentarian by another EU country.
Verhagen told his UK colleague on Tuesday that the Dutch cabinet was 'very unhappy' about their shock decision to ban a parliamentarian from another EU- country, his ministerial spokesman said. Verhagen has lodged formal objections with Milliband and the UK ambassador in The Hague.

This move is unprecedented in European politics - to ban a citizen from another EU country who has no criminal record, and who moreover is a leader of a growing Dutch political party, has never happened before.

43 zombie  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:37:20pm

Charles, note the subtle difference between what you say in this thread...:

Also note that Wilders has recently announced he plans to form an alliance with the neofascist Belgian party Vlaams Belang.

...and what the article you link to actually says:

Wilders also said that he is considering forming an alliance with Belgium’s far-right Vlaams Belang party, which he has hitherto shunned.

I know it may seem like a minor difference, but in this instance, I think it could be significant. Not only has Wilders not yet formed an alliance, it seems he is not yet even "planning" to form an alliance. He is simply thinking out the possibility, or "considering" it. (Which,I agree, would be a big mistake.)

But let's not yet completely throw Wilders under the bus until we see what he actually does. He's heading in the wrong direction, but he doesn't seem to have crossed the line yet.

Maybe he can step back and save his credibility. He still has time.

(Proviso: I don't follow Dutch politics on a day-to-day basis, so I don't know what Wilders may have said in recent weeks concerning Vlaams Belang.)

44 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:37:30pm

re: #19 Spiritualized

We have nobody left.

Why did he have to join the dark side.

We have Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Pat Condell. That doesn't bother me much but others here may not be too happy about that. I think that this would have been very difficult to avoid. The counter-Jihad movement was bound to attract racists and it would have been very difficult to keep them out. People like Ann Coulter certainly didn't help things with her Christian superiority thing and racists language. Far too many in the counter Jihad movement are enticed by the ethnic nationalists.

45 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:37:40pm

It seems that everyone in European politics is either a socialist, a communist or a crypto-fascist....not a single sane politician to be found.

Sad state of affairs.

46 Dustyvet  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:38:20pm

re: #3 screaming_eagle

How long until shit like that happens here in the US?

It's already begun...

47 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:38:28pm

re: #29 enoughalready

Ummm, is the problem that it was Lord Ahmed that lodged the protest? And why is it wrong to not let Mr Wilder into the UK? I don't quite get that. He is not a british citizen, hence he has no absolute right to enter the country. They aren't exactly shutting him up so I don't quite see how free speech fits into this.

Gee- plenty of other non-UK citizens are allowed into the UK. Why are they blocking Mr. Wilders if not for his public stances on islam?

48 TheOtherCanadian  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:38:32pm


There is no England anymore.

49 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:38:48pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

When will the Europeans start to take a more comprehensive, intellectual look at American principles? That limiting speech doesn't solve the underlying issues, but only masks them? That continuing with their anti-American sentiments makes it more difficult to consider alternative options to dealing with their issues?

We don't have everything perfect here in America, but what we did get right has allowed bigots to remain on the fringes where they belong, not masking their bigotry and gaining large following that legitimize them.

I know a lot of individual Europeans love America and Americans. What is wrong with the rest of them though? Embrace free speech! Embrace individual rights! And maybe from there some solutions to european issues could be found.

Because Europe is very tribal. Really in the same way that the middle east is, except the tribes all have their own little piece of property called France, Germany, Italy etc.

In the middle east, you have multiple tribes in the same country.

But it's the same, and this is what happens.

50 zelnaga  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:38:49pm

As the old saying goes, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.".

Of course, then again, I think the notion of free speech has only been codified in UK law in the last decade or so? wikipedia.org makes it sound as though they didn't have any explicit laws on the subject until 1998.

51 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:38:58pm

re: #46 Dustyvet

hey...dusty...got my gun today :O)

52 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:09pm

re: #38 Thanos

Europe is culturally and intellectually compressed in a cage of their own history. That's why Don Rumsfeld's remark about "Old Europe" stung them so much.

I know- that's why it's high time they let go of some of it.

53 Colonel Panik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:12pm

re: #41 Dustyvet

Maybe if we get lucky Cat "Yusuf Islam" Stevens will bury himself in the deep end of catbox.

/*spit*

Yup, I think it's great that MadTV had enough cojones to do that parody though. It cracks me up everytime I think about it.

54 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:14pm

re: #43 zombie

Charles, note the subtle difference between what you say in this thread...:

I know it may seem like a minor difference, but in this instance, I think it could be significant. Not only has Wilders not yet formed an alliance, it seems he is not yet even "planning" to form an alliance. He is simply thinking out the possibility, or "considering" it. (Which,I agree, would be a big mistake.)

But let's not yet completely throw Wilders under the bus until we see what he actually does. He's heading in the wrong direction, but he doesn't seem to have crossed the line yet.

Maybe he can step back and save his credibility. He still has time.

(Proviso: I don't follow Dutch politics on a day-to-day basis, so I don't know what Wilders may have said in recent weeks concerning Vlaams Belang.)

Wilders' plans to ally with the VB have been confirmed to me by other sources.

55 fish  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:18pm

This really leaves me speechless.

It is like everyone involved in this story sat down and thought :"What is the worst possible way I can react to the things going on around me that I don't like?"

I don't think I will be visiting Euraope anytime soon.

56 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:29pm

I love how leftward leaning Europeans and Europhiles love to lecture the US on how we managed to destroy our Constitution, stifle free speech, repeal all our moral prior human rights claims and throw out habeas corpus in our War On Terror.

Yet here we have European essentially punishing a man prior to a conviction for a "crime" he has been accused of which simply boils down to having an opinion that some moralists object to and having the temerity to express that opinion.

The US needs to either pull out of NATO or simply redeploy our European forces domestically so that Europe can learn to deal with the problems we are having to deal with on their behalf.

57 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:30pm

re: #27 screaming_eagle

inches turn into feet which leads to yards and on to miles . .. .. .

Yes they do. The initial question was when does the US start banning people from entering the country because they say things the Muslims hate. That is when the 1st Amendment falls or is no longer followed and that is what will happen when the 2nd is repealed.

58 FrogMarch  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:39pm

btw - Where's Pat C.? We need some Pat.

"Nobody should be compelled to respect an ideology that doesn't respect them."

59 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:39:55pm

re: #51 kawfytawk

hey...dusty...got my gun today :O)

No good, we need the picture!

60 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:40:30pm

re: #43 zombie

His plan to ban the Quran and criminalize the practice of Islam is another indication that he's not on the right side. Even without his flirting with VB I'd still have to reluctantly support his right to free speech but I can hardly get behind his ideas.

61 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:40:30pm

re: #56 karmic_inquisitor


The US needs to either pull out of NATO or simply redeploy our European forces domestically so that Europe can learn to deal with the problems we are having to deal with on their behalf.


--------
I've been advocating this for years! Once they have to defend themselves, they'll grow up (or attack each other ;-> ).

62 Dustyvet  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:40:41pm

re: #51 kawfytawk

hey...dusty...got my gun today :O)

Cools...:) what did you get?

63 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:41:27pm

re: #59 Wishing

here it is

64 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:41:54pm

re: #54 Charles

Wilders' plans to ally with the VB have been confirmed to me by other sources.

And as a side note, where is Murray on all this. Spencer won't answer any of my emails on that subject. I don't know who is hiding what?

65 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:42:13pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Because blood and soil is all the euros seem to know. They haven't taken the time to think through their opposition to islam on intellectual grounds. I don't need to invoke my nationality or religion to oppose islam, I have ideological reasons.

But for some, thinking is teh hard.

66 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:42:28pm

re: #63 kawfytawk

here it is

Thunder 380?

67 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:42:36pm

re: #62 Dustyvet

I couldn't believe how easy it was to shoot. I will take my concealed carry course next month

68 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:42:49pm

re: #66 Wishing

yep

69 J.S.  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:43:12pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

I think it's somewhat more complicated -- nations in Europe don't have a "division of powers" -- not like in the United States with independent branches of government overseeing the other branches (this kind of oversight prevents, imo, corruption and bad governance...but, it doesn't exist in Europe -- you get parliamentary systems, and, say, in Germany, you get "proportional representation", etc., then on top of that you've got the EU (a completely hide-bound bureaucracy)...I think the American system is unique and it can't be easily transferred...(even the Europe legal system -- their courts -- are wholly different -- you get in Continental Europe judges (not juries), and the judges are "activists" really, they don't shut up during a trial...(usually you get three of them, etc., yakking away...)

70 enoughalready  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:43:22pm

UK is not part of Schengen. Had they been this would never have become an issue. Fortunately for them (for other reasons, not this particular one) they have retained there passport controls and still have the right to bar EU citizens from entering.

71 Dustyvet  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:43:49pm

re: #67 kawfytawk

I couldn't believe how easy it was to shoot. I will take my concealed carry course next month

Very good, nice weapon...

72 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:43:52pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

We have Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Pat Condell. That doesn't bother me much but others here may not be too happy about that. I think that this would have been very difficult to avoid. The counter-Jihad movement was bound to attract racists and it would have been very difficult to keep them out. People like Ann Coulter certainly didn't help things with her Christian superiority thing and racists language. Far too many in the counter Jihad movement are enticed by the ethnic nationalists.

I tried to blow the whistle on this slide into ethnic nationalist crap, but I've been viciously attacked for it -- and by the same people who praised me for my other opinions. The "anti-jihad movement" (if there ever really was one) has become a bigoted mess of smelly fascist associations, and I want nothing to do with these people.

73 zombie  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:43:58pm

re: #54 Charles

Wilders' plans to ally with the VB have been confirmed to me by other sources.

Oh -- ouch. That's not good. Your behind-the-scenes info trumps my surface knowledge of the situation.

74 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:44:32pm

re: #68 kawfytawk

yep

Have one! Love it! But this has won my heart:

Sig P220 carry Elite

75 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:45:17pm

re: #71 Dustyvet

thank you...i tried the glock 26, but this one felt better

76 nyc redneck  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:45:35pm

britain is going to slip a disc bending over to accommodate jihadis coming and going into their country.
pushing sharia law, propagating terror in mosques, defiling british culture and values.
does the MOSLEM house of lords member protest that?

77 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:45:58pm

By the way, I contacted Wilders through email when this story about allying with the VB came out, to give him a chance to explain his position and clarify it if it wasn't being reported correctly. I received no response.

78 screaming_eagle  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:46:22pm

re: #57 CyanSnowHawk

Yes they do. The initial question was when does the US start banning people from entering the country because they say things the Muslims hate. That is when the 1st Amendment falls or is no longer followed and that is what will happen when the 2nd is repealed.

Yes and regarding the intial question, how close are we to such things. Multi-culturism and politicly correct speech are already leading us in that direction. Think University of Michigan and footbaths. Think about the uproar during the campaign of using Barrys middle name.

79 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:46:36pm

re: #77 Charles

By the way, I contacted Wilders through email when this story about allying with the VB came out, to give him a chance to explain his position and clarify it if it wasn't being reported correctly. I received no response.

Has Murray answered you?

80 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:46:45pm

re: #74 Wishing

I didn't see that one at the shop...but then again I am a novice at all this, and could have missed it

81 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:47:19pm

A.H.A. is now keeping Geert at arm's length as well:
(this is also a great article btw)

The moral relativism that silences European society makes European critics of radical Islam vulnerable to censorship or other repressive tactics. Geert Wilders, a Dutch politician who currently faces prosecution for his harsh criticism of radical Islam, is an example of this repression, Hirsi Ali said: “I do not agree with everything he says … But it doesn’t matter whether I agree or disagree. Everything Mr. Wilders says or does in public about Islam, he does so by adhering to the conditions of democracy.”

[Link: www.calvin.edu...]

82 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:47:59pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout


We have Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Pat Condell.

And Melanie Phillips, Nick Cohen....Bruce Bawer lives and write there still.

There are others too, but no politicians.

83 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:48:16pm

re: #81 Thanos

I love that woman.

84 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:48:17pm

re: #74 Wishing

how does that handle compared to the thunder 380?

85 Opinionated  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:48:45pm

Did he forget the secret password?

"Fuck the Israelis. Fuck the Jews"

The Foreign Office will not just let him in but will spread a red carpet.

86 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:48:49pm

re: #69 J.S.

Indeed- I, for one, am glad America doesn't have a parliamentary system. We may have groups in Congress that form caucuses, but it's hardly the same thing.

While I agree that the systems are quite different, I still see one of the fundamental problems being the lack of support for individual rights that we thankfully have in the States.

87 Soona'  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:49:22pm

re: #57 CyanSnowHawk

Yes they do. The initial question was when does the US start banning people from entering the country because they say things the Muslims hate. That is when the 1st Amendment falls or is no longer followed and that is what will happen when the 2nd is repealed.

It may not be official government policy, but haven't you noticed that every time a conservative speaker goes to a university to give a talk how they're hammered by the libtards. It's been happening in the US for some time now.

88 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:49:42pm

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

Has Murray answered you?

Yes, and without getting into details, he stands by his statement about the VB. I may have more info soon.

89 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:49:54pm

re: #82 Ringo the Gringo

And Melanie Phillips, Nick Cohen....Bruce Bawer lives and write there still.

There are others too, but no politicians.

Of course not, because whenever anyone steps forward they are trashed by the ethnic nationalists and the left alike, who would be so stupid as to propose a moderate stance on the issues? You saw what happened to AHA.

90 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:50:31pm

re: #87 Soona'

It may not be official government policy, but haven't you noticed that every time a conservative speaker goes to a university to give a talk how they're hammered by the libtards. It's been happening in the US for some time now.

It's the heckler's veto, and on some campuses, it's overwhelming.
Assuming I'm around to watch it on PPV, it's going to be fun watching Islam destroy the Left.

91 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:51:46pm

re: #82 Ringo the Gringo

I'm a little suspicious of Melanie Phillips....
The secular jihadi two-step

In a previous post, I argued that the extreme Right has rebranded itself as a “secular jihad” against “Eurabia” to appeal to the liberal hawk/”decent left” tendency. Where once the New York Times’s op-ed pages wrung hands and wagged fingers against the rise of Haider and Le Pen as a renaissance of anti-semitism, now Melanie Phillips flirts with the Vlaams Belang as strugglers for Western civilisation.
92 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:51:54pm

re: #88 Charles

Yes, and without getting into details, he stands by his statement about the VB. I may have more info soon.

Thanks. As I said above, Spencer, who always seems eager to "answer" my emails, suddenly went mum after his initial response, and he has not answered my rebuttal.

93 Render  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:52:46pm
94 FrogMarch  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:52:56pm
So while I denounce Britain’s decision, I can’t support Wilders either while he maintains these positions and associations. Britain is wrong, and Wilders is also wrong. It’s a bad situation all around.

Agreed. Pity, though. Wilder's anti-free speech and connections with the VB ruin what was otherwise promising refreshing honesty in the Netherlands.

95 Wishing  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:55:35pm

re: #84 kawfytawk

how does that handle compared to the thunder 380?

Well it is a .45 caliber. But it shoots like a dream, shoots way better than I do. LOL

96 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:58:03pm

re: #72 Charles

I don't know if you're told enough, but thank you.

97 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:58:20pm

Back to UNRWA for a minute.

Here's a short video with some things I didn't know about the world's worst "aid" organization:

[Link: www.road90.com...]

98 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:58:55pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

I don't know if you're told enough, but thank you.

Same goes to you, Sharm.

99 J.S.  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:59:37pm

re: #86 Sharmuta

You also get (in Europe) really (i don't know -- having grown up in the States, my response would be to yell, "Police State! Police State!" -- but, it's just accepted practice in much of Europe -- and that includes things such as "registering one's address" at the local cop shop or municipal authority...You can't move without letting "the authorities" know about it. Then, out in rural areas, you get families who've lived for (sometimes) hundreds of years in the same locale -- don't get a whole lot of mobility. In villages everybody knows everybody else (and there are generational histories of Family X...) Then, of course, there have been the wars -- the soil literally drenched in blood, due to some past conflicts (secular, religious, nationalist, etc)...Then, you suddenly open up immigration, eh? --and "them foreigners" move in...and, yes, you'll get racism and xenophobia...(then, someone wants Free Speech? oh boy...No, in Europe they want the people to shut up and be docile...don't rock the boat, since (given Europe's past history) the only thing that "rocking the boat" gets is riots, murder and mayhem...so, you learn to shut up...

100 kawfytawk  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:03:09pm

re: #95 Wishing

I think I will stick with this for the time being. I wondered how it would be to shoot a lighter weight gun with a higher caliber bullet

101 infidel4ever  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:04:44pm

re: #43 zombie

Charles, note the subtle difference between what you say in this thread...:


I know it may seem like a minor difference, but in this instance, I think it could be significant. Not only has Wilders not yet formed an alliance, it seems he is not yet even "planning" to form an alliance. He is simply thinking out the possibility, or "considering" it. (Which,I agree, would be a big mistake.)

But let's not yet completely throw Wilders under the bus until we see what he actually does. He's heading in the wrong direction, but he doesn't seem to have crossed the line yet.

Maybe he can step back and save his credibility. He still has time.

(Proviso: I don't follow Dutch politics on a day-to-day basis, so I don't know what Wilders may have said in recent weeks concerning Vlaams Belang.)

As far as I know he has not said anything. And if Wilders is considering forming an alliance with Vlaams Belang, that would be on a European level. No doubt this has to do with the EU putting up barriers for new parties/dissenting parties to prevent them from entering the European Parliament.

I agree it would not be a good idea to join with Vlaams Belang. Lie with dogs, get fleas...

Within the Netherlands his party is the only voice against the multicultural madness...

102 Dan G.  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:08:37pm

Charles,

Thanks for being on the right side (which in this case is truly neither). Too many people get hung-up in false dichotomies and feel the need to cast their lot with one side or the other in a situation like this. Keep up the good work.

103 mean Gene  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:09:38pm

RE: #43 and #101, the other day on an ID thread Charles made the factual point that EVERY ID in class move has been made or backed by Republicans.
How long can we continue being associated with them?

104 Dan G.  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:10:09pm

re: #43 zombie

His suggestions about banning books and religion have him well beyond "the line" at this point, regardless of his choice to affiliate with VB or not.

105 Dan G.  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:10:48pm

re: #103 mean Gene

Independent is a viable option.

106 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:10:58pm

re: #99 J.S.

All I can say is "thank you" to my ancestors for getting the hell out of there.

107 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:17:21pm

What Wilders and his supporters are confronted with is a choice between evils and there is no resolution to this problem that will not be messy. Islam is Islam and the leftist nutcase multiculties are leftist nutcase multiculties. The Leftists and the Islamists are in bed together and the Leftists seem oblivious to the fact that they are going to be the ones who get f##ked in the end.

I too have problems with several of Wilders' choices in this matter, but I will not condemn him for those choices. I am several thousand miles and a cultural gap away from his situation. I cannot possibly know what specific factors influenced those choices. I do, however, recognize that Europe is in danger and that the voices that are speaking out against that danger are under attack to the extent that they require constant protection.

We live a blessed, almost charmed, life in America. We are protected by two oceans. We have (at least for now) the greatest system of government in the history of human civilization and yet only an idiot could not recognize that all that we hold dear is under assault. Europe has been and will continue to be a major staging ground for that assault. We have to do something. We have to support someone.

This is going to be a long and dirty conflict and no one will emerge from it with clean hands. I hate it. I really hate it, but the only way out of it is through it.

108 mamashawna  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:17:22pm

re: #8 buzzsawmonkey

"Something wigged this way comes."

Best LOL I've had all day! Ha!

109 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:22:43pm

re: #107 USBeast

We have to do something. We have to support someone.

Find one for me not involved with fascists, and I'll consider them.

110 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:30:50pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

That's sweet of you, but I haven't done anything.

111 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:33:46pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

All I can say is "thank you" to my ancestors for getting the hell out of there.

I hear you there! My Dad's side got out before 1900, my mom's in the '20's.

112 markie  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:34:49pm

re: #16 CyanSnowHawk

I'm talking full repeal, not the inch that they are currently trying to take.

Obama's working on it. With Ginsburg ill he has her slot as well as one other at least during his term. He's already grooming possibles for the stepping-stone positions that lead to SCOTUS.

113 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:36:12pm
114 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:36:45pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

Find one for me not involved with fascists, and I'll consider them.

Okay, suppose I can't. Suppose no one opposing the Islamification of Europe who has not been called a Fascist or a Nazi or a Racist can be found. This is not hard supposing because anyone who even questions Islam is going to be called one of the above. What credentials are required? What kind of hoops must be jumped through?

I understand your objections to questionable characters but the European house is on fire and it's silly to ask for ID's from those joining the bucket brigade.

115 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:40:42pm

re: #114 USBeast

There is a difference between being called a fascists, and being called a fascist because you actually are in fact a fascist. VB is a bunch of fascists, and those who willingly lie down with them are asking for fleas. They are welcome to them.

You think it's crazy to ask for identification for the "bucket brigade", but I don't. Some of those buckets could very well be filled with gasoline for the fire instead of water.

116 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:49:34pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

"Find one for me not involved with fascists, and I'll consider them."

Do you have any nominations? I'd gladly support them. If you don't, are we to let Europe burn?

117 Vik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:50:27pm

It is certainly admirable to want to defend freedom of religion absolutely. However, an examination of the Koran, and of the Hadith (the life of Mohammed), appears to reveal an utter dedication to the extermination of the rights of freedom and of religion of all non-Muslims. In short, as the famous saying goes, tolerance of intolerance is neither virtuous nor reasonable. If an organization dedicated to killing all those who are not members of it, happens to also be a religion, are we then barred from defending ourselves against it?

118 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:51:00pm

re: #116 USBeast

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

119 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:58:24pm

re: #117 Vik

It is certainly admirable to want to defend freedom of religion absolutely. However, an examination of the Koran, and of the Hadith (the life of Mohammed), appears to reveal an utter dedication to the extermination of the rights of freedom and of religion of all non-Muslims. In short, as the famous saying goes, tolerance of intolerance is neither virtuous nor reasonable. If an organization dedicated to killing all those who are not members of it, happens to also be a religion, are we then barred from defending ourselves against it?

The way you "defend yourself" against Islam is by using your power of free speech to argue, demonstrate and reveal what you think should be known. Not by banning religion, and taking away the rights of others.

Fascists ban books, and ban religions. Not people who believe in democracy.

120 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:59:43pm

re: #114 USBeast

I have to agree with Sharmuta on this...so long as people (in this case, Europeans) look to fascism and fascist organizations for the "solution" to their "Islamism problem", I'll still refuse to back them. Let them reject the fascists or I'll basically tell them to f**k off...Europeans have a bad habit of falling into the same bad behaviors and repeating the same mistakes over the past century or so (at least), each time becoming worse than the last.

/NO FASCISTS IN MY FOXHOLE!

121 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:00:18pm

re: #116 USBeast

"Find one for me not involved with fascists, and I'll consider them."

Do you have any nominations? I'd gladly support them. If you don't, are we to let Europe burn?

If you think it's a good idea to hook up with neo-Nazis and fascists because you're in a panic about Islam, don't let me stop you. It's your choice. Let us know how that works out for you.

122 ML1  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:01:59pm

One for those who might not be aware of Lord Nazir Ahmed's pedigree.

From Harry's Place:

In 2005, Lord Ahmed hosted the neo Nazi and Borat impersonator, “Israel Shamir” - a man so extreme that he lambasted the BNP for being Jew-controlled - as his guest at the House of Lords.

Although Lord Ahmed’s co-operation with this extreme racist was widely reported, he did nothing to distance himself from “Israel Shamir”.

There were no meetings with whips or leaders.

There were no demonstrations.

The meeting was not cancelled.

Charles is right: it's turdles all the way down.

123 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:03:08pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Agreed. A great lady and one of the solitary heroes of the fight, but what forces can she muster? She is under a death threat and is no longer a member of the Dutch parliament. As much as I admire her, her courage alone will not stop a conflagration in Europe.

124 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:11:25pm

re: #123 USBeast

Michael Van Der Galien, there are also numerous parties that are to the right, which do oppose immigration, which also get continually shit upon by the likes of BNP and VB. It's how they work, they want you to think they are the only alternative.

In Belgium there is LD, N-VA, VLD and others. You don't hear much about them because they aren't reaching out of country for support, and they aren't hysterical nincompoops. They support many of the same issues that VB does, but they don't have apartheid deportation plans.

125 docjay  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:19:49pm

How the mighty have fallen. The British have become Dhimmi in their own country.

126 Scion9  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:21:27pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Eh. I can't agree. She is either on a short leash by her employers right now, or she has significantly altered her views from the days she was an MP. When she was actually a European pol, her views in regards to liberty were shockingly mainstream. She was no fan of individual rights, except where they conformed to the ideology of her or her political allies (just like Geert Wilders).

I find it more likely that she has been groomed for American conservatives rather than her views on the role of government having so drastically changed.

127 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:23:46pm

re: #121 Charles

If you think it's a good idea to hook up with neo-Nazis and fascists because you're in a panic about Islam, don't let me stop you. It's your choice. Let us know how that works out for you.

Charles, I do not believe there are any "good ideas" regarding the situation in Europe, only ugly choices. I do not like any of them. I have no contact with neo-Nazis, fascists, Creationists, Truthers or Flat Earthers. I am not in a panic about Islam, but I am concerned about the fate of Western Civilization and consider free and open discussion of issues to be one of the bedrocks of that civilization.

If someone has been offended by any of my comments, please understand that no offense was intended.

128 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:25:16pm

re: #124 Thanos

Michael Van Der Galien, there are also numerous parties that are to the right, which do oppose immigration, which also get continually shit upon by the likes of BNP and VB. It's how they work, they want you to think they are the only alternative.

In Belgium there is LD, N-VA, VLD and others. You don't hear much about them because they aren't reaching out of country for support, and they aren't hysterical nincompoops. They support many of the same issues that VB does, but they don't have apartheid deportation plans.

Thanks, Thanos. Do you have any links?

129 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:25:38pm

What I find very objectionable about all of this is that Britain is not allowing him entry because the Muslims are blackmailing them in saying that they will riot. Maybe somebody can blackmail them back and say that they will riot if he is not allowed in. I am kidding of course, but It goes to show you how little respect for law there is now in the country that used to be known as Great Britain. Blackstone must be turning over in his grave.

130 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:28:55pm

re: #123 USBeast

You position on this kind of concerns me. I don't think that the apparent lack of obvious, viable political parties in europe should means fascist parties get our support by default. As Thanos just stated, there are other political options, but they are overlooked by some because they don't get the publicity and/or are smeared by the left as well as by the fascists. Once ideals are compromised, all sorts of nastiness can slip in. The path of fascism has been tried already, and it led to genocide. I'm not willing to wager they've changed so much that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it could happen again.

131 citizen_canuck  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:30:38pm

Geert Wilders has stated that he is willing to work with Vlaams Belang or any other right wing party to create a block of right-wing conservatives in the European Parliament, to run in the next EU Elections. He has spoken to other right-wing parties across the EU including VB.

Wilders: Mogelijk rechts blok in Europees Parlement

vrijdag 19 december 2008 09:23

PVV-leider Geert Wilders ziet mogelijkheden voor de Europese verkiezingen volgend jaar en overweegt daarom te gaan samenwerken met andere rechtse partijen in Europa. Wilders wil daarbij niemand op voorhand uitsluiten.

Wilders benadrukt noodzaak van rechts blok in Europarlement Wilders benadrukt noodzaak van rechts blok in Europarlement

Rechts blok
In een interview in weekblad HP/De Tijd zegt Wilders deze week dat hij ook gesprekken voert met andere rechtse partijen in Europa. Door een rechts blok te vormen wil hij meer invloed in het Europees Parlement.

Wilders zegt druk bezig te zijn met een kandidatenlijst voor de Europese verkiezingen die in juni volgend jaar worden gehouden.

Wilders bevestigt aan elsevier.nl dat hij de vorming van een rechts blok in het Europees parlement overweegt.

Wilders wil samenwerking met het Vlaams Belang of een andere rechtse Europese partij daarbij niet uitsluiten.

Tot nu toe wees Wilders een alliantie met die Vlaamse partij altijd van de hand. Reden daarvoor zou het vermeende antisemitisme in de Vlaamse partij zijn.

Andere geluiden
In een interview met de Israëlische krant Haaretz vorig jaar wezen verschillende Belgisch-joodse geestelijken nog op de antisemitische sentimenten in het Vlaams Belang.

Daarnaar verwijzend, zei Wilders dat hij niets ziet in een eventuele samenwerking.

Maar Wilders ontkent tegen elsevier.nl dat hij afgelopen zondag - bij de presentatie van zijn koranfilm Fitna in Jeruzalem - tegen Haaretz heeft gezegd dat nu 'andere geluiden uit het Vlaams Belang komen'.

Wilders benadrukt dat zijn partij 'alle opties open houdt', en dat niemand bij voorbaat wordt uitgesloten

132 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:31:37pm
133 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:31:48pm

re: #127 USBeast

Charles, I do not believe there are any "good ideas" regarding the situation in Europe, only ugly choices. I do not like any of them. I have no contact with neo-Nazis, fascists, Creationists, Truthers or Flat Earthers. I am not in a panic about Islam, but I am concerned about the fate of Western Civilization and consider free and open discussion of issues to be one of the bedrocks of that civilization.

If someone has been offended by any of my comments, please understand that no offense was intended.

I'm not offended - it's just that I've heard all of these arguments for compromising principles and hooking up with really bad people because "it's our only choice or we're doomed!" many times before.

I'm still surprised that people will actually argue that we should drop all our integrity and hook up with people who aren't even fit to be spat upon.

134 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:33:10pm

re: #130 Sharmuta

You position on this kind of concerns me. I don't think that the apparent lack of obvious, viable political parties in europe should means fascist parties get our support by default. As Thanos just stated, there are other political options, but they are overlooked by some because they don't get the publicity and/or are smeared by the left as well as by the fascists. Once ideals are compromised, all sorts of nastiness can slip in. The path of fascism has been tried already, and it led to genocide. I'm not willing to wager they've changed so much that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it could happen again.

I agree and, if you will note, I asked Thanos for links.

135 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:34:11pm

re: #132 Thanos

Thanks, Thanos. Added to my euro-politics bookmarks. :)

136 Scion9  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:41:08pm

re: #129 Shr_Nfr

What I find very objectionable about all of this is that Britain is not allowing him entry because the Muslims are blackmailing them in saying that they will riot. Maybe somebody can blackmail them back and say that they will riot if he is not allowed in. I am kidding of course, but It goes to show you how little respect for law there is now in the country that used to be known as Great Britain. Blackstone must be turning over in his grave.

It's not just the UK unfortunately. The US is maybe a few decades behind at most. The UK has the power and resources to handle riots (arguably they are better equipped to do so than any Western democracy), and 'reverse riots' will doubtfully produce the desired results.

Wilders is barred under the threat of violence, and there is capitulation not because there is fear of said violence, but that it is a plausible reason to capitulate. Wilders is barred because those in charge of making that decision hate Wilders and sympathize with his detractors.

To some extent, the whole situation is staged. I'm not talking conspiracy, but the exact same kind of thing happened here during the era of the 'counter culture'. Spoiled brats wrecked stuff, hurt and killed people. There was no serious threat of them actually overthrowing the government, or being a long term credible threat and everyone knew it. They however had enough sympathizers in positions of power, in the government, media and academia that their temper tantrum was ultimately productive in getting at least some of the changes they wanted implemented. There was the preception among those threatening and committing violence would be productive.

The KKK were likewise put to use to maintain control for the Southern aristocracy for over a generation following the Civil War. Their terrorism was excused, and often secretly supported. There is likewise little such perception today among hardcore reactionaries that violence and the threat of violence is a viable political tool, so therefore there criminal acts are little more than standard sporadic gang violence.

This is not a new model at all. If the Brits put down their foot hard, over and over again, this would not be an issue for them. It is an issue, because those in power want it to be one. Rioting, angst ridden "Asian youths" are very useful to them.

137 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:42:04pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

Thanks, Thanos. Added to my euro-politics bookmarks. :)

Note that there are leanings to tribal nationalism in both of those parties, they just aren't holocaust deniers and full bore racialists the way the leadership of VB is. They are alternatives to them, they just don't have ties across the water via the VDARE/Stormfront/BNP nexus as VB does, so you don't hear about them except when VB is pissing on them.

138 Dustyvet  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:42:50pm

Palestinian Women Urged To Sacrifice Their Children.


139 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:47:40pm

re: #133 Charles

I'm not offended - it's just that I've heard all of these arguments for compromising principles and hooking up with really bad people because "it's our only choice or we're doomed!" many times before.

I'm still surprised that people will actually argue that we should drop all our integrity and hook up with people who aren't even fit to be spat upon.

Yes, those arguments have been made before. Did Roosevelt and Churchill drop all their integrity when they hooked up with Stalin, one of the greatest monsters in human history?

I'm not saying "it's our only choice" but we'd better come up with some other choices PDQ. The news from Europe is not good.

If someone can offer me a brighter outlook I will welcome it with joyful tears in my eyes.

140 Lynn  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 5:54:40pm

My understanding is that Wilders call to ban the Quran was made in order to force a comparison between it and Mein Kampf, which has been banned in the Netherlands for several years under existing law. However, he has apparently amended his position since then, making it very clear that he believes in absolute free speech. He says so in no uncertain terms right here:

[Link: www.digitaljournal.com...]

I'm also somewhat startled at the tone of this post. . . . the British governement has just publically capitulated to terroristc threats originating from within the leadership of its own muslim community - and all we do is lament that Wilders is "wrong too?"

141 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:02:20pm

Wilders said he is thinking about forming an alliance with VB. He did not state categorically that he is indeed doing so. The jury is still out on that.

Wilders belief in banning the Koran is consistent with the action of a totalitarian. However, there is no evidence that Wilders is like a totalitarian in any other way.

After we beat Japan and Germany, we banned parts of their state ideologies. That's how we effected the change necessary to turn the countries into what they are today.

I see the idea of banning the Koran as being in that tradition.

Certainly, none of us have taken a principled stand against the people in Germany who go on ensuring that Mein Kampf is banned, do we?

If I were to weigh the two,

Britain's idiotic move to ban an European from their country (Britain is a member of the EU, therefore, Wilders has the right to be in the country)

vs.

Wilders desire to see the Koran banned (which is in the European tradition of banning books like Mein Kampf),

I would have to say that Britain's decision is much more totalitarian in nature.

142 notutopia  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:03:58pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

Find one for me not involved with fascists, and I'll consider them.

I wholeheartedly agree. To partner or side with fascists, is hypocritical in the fight against jihad. Let's stay with dissent and free speech.

143 Scion9  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:04:47pm

re: #139 USBeast

Yes, those arguments have been made before. Did Roosevelt and Churchill drop all their integrity when they hooked up with Stalin, one of the greatest monsters in human history?

Roosevelt and his boys were fans of Mussolini, and vice versa. He never had any integrity to drop. The generals that advocated flattening the Soviets and were told to sit down and shut up were the ones with integrity.

Churchill was likewise told to get the fuck out after the war was over by his own people, so they could elect Fascist-lite leftists that were just as buddy with the Communists as the New Dealers.

Not to mention it wasn't Churchill or Roosevelt that made the Soviets one of the Allies; it was Hitler.

144 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:06:36pm

re: #134 USBeast

I noticed you asked, but your previous comments are still troubling.

The fascists in europe have the wrong approach- they see their culture as tied to ethnicity. This will not stop islam as islam is not a race!

The approach therefore needs to be a culture defended by the rule of law, equal treatment under the law, and individual rights.

The muslims in europe can keep their islam for all I care, so long as they abide by the rule of law. Equality and individual rights are in conflict with a number of tenants of islam. If they have a problem with that, they can find somewhere else besides europe that will be more hospitable to them.

The problem is the euros are not upholding their own laws. Is it legal in europe to burn cars, mutilate the genitals of little girls, or incite violence against others? If not, then why aren't the europeans enforcing their laws? Therefore to defend their culture they must defend their laws. Turning to ideologies that too closely mirror the one they claim to oppose is only trading one problem for another and doesn't solve the root issues.

145 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:13:41pm

re: #140 Lynn

Wilders only retracted and rationalized that after he saw it was losing him support, he's a populist first. He's also comtemplating alliance with some rather slimy characters in Europe. I'm not startled at all.
After Fitna I did more research, found him saying things like muslims should only wear headscarves in their homes etc. so he's been this way awhile.

146 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:14:57pm

USBeast: It's standard that the apologists for the tribal nationalists of Europe always end with "but we allied with Stalin".

Congrats, you've completed the circle.

147 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:24:44pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

The problem is that this is not about race or laws. It is about culture. European governments have adopted the multiculturalist fallacy as their working policy. I believe that not even muliticulties bought their own snake oil. They assumed that the cheap labor they were importing would eventually assimilate and it would all work out. The two mistakes they made were: One, not realizing the power Islamic ideology exerts on its adherents and: Two, providing unlimited welfare for those who refused to actually work for a living. These two elements can explain the mess Europe is in now. Unfortunately they do not provide an easy way to clean it up.

148 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:27:26pm

re: #141 Pastorius

After we beat Japan and Germany, we banned parts of their state ideologies. That's how we effected the change necessary to turn the countries into what they are today.

I see the idea of banning the Koran as being in that tradition.

Was Mein Kampf banned in the US after the war? (during the war the US seized the copywrite under "trading with the Enemy" act, but after the war it was available, even during the war you could go to the library and read it, sales were not prohibited, but if you bought a copy the profit went to the US gov.)
Were books on Shinto and Bushido banned in the US?

We have circumscribed sales of some texts in Iraq and Afghanistan, but guess what, none are banned here. You can buy Milestones at most bookstores. So your argument doesn't really hold water.

149 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:29:37pm

re: #146 Thanos

USBeast: It's standard that the apologists for the tribal nationalists of Europe always end with "but we allied with Stalin".

Congrats, you've completed the circle.

I make my own apologies when necessary. I am not anyone's tribal nationalist and history is history.

150 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:29:42pm

145 Thanos,
Headscarves or Burqas? I would be for banning Burqas, as I see them as being portable concentration camps for women. They are the obliteration of the public persona of a human being.

France banned the headscarf in schools and public workplaces.

You have to take this stuff in context. Calling Wilders a totalitarian for being within the mainstream of European thinking seems out of whack to me.

151 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:31:01pm

re: #147 USBeast

To defend their culture they must defend their laws.

152 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:33:12pm

re: #54 Charles

You could set up an online petition, with enough evidence and documents to back our claim, to ask Mr. Wilders not to join these neo-Fascists. I think that's the best thing LGF can do to help win this thing against the Jihadists and their fascists colleagues in Europe.

153 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:34:25pm

re: #150 Pastorius
If a woman wants to dress in a ninja bag it's her business, not yours, and telling her she can't circumscribes her freedom. I am entirely aware of what the burqa is, what it stands for, and what it means in Islamic countries. In the west however it's a personal choice. Like letting racists speak, I would rather know who the fundamentalists are, let them wear their ninja bags if they insist.

154 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:35:34pm

re: #153 Thanos

the question for me is why did they choose to come here if they wanted to keep their Burqa? They were free back at home too, were they not?

155 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:37:41pm

Oh, and Geert was speaking about Headscarves, not burqas, and that was back in 2004. Put another perspective on it: make the country the US, make the woman Amish, and the headgear a bonnet. Is it right that you demand she not wear something specifically designed for modesty in public when she's in public?
Make the woman FLDS, or LDS, should you be able to tell her not to wear long dresses?

156 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:39:30pm

re: #154 winston06

If they want to interpret their religion as requiring a burqa for modesty, that's their business, not mine, not yours. Why they came here I suspect varies does it not? Regardless, in the west the choice to wear or not wear a burqa is a freedom, just as the choice to dye your hair green is.

157 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:39:31pm

148 Thanos,
I wasn't referring to banning Mein Kampf in the United States. I'm talking about what we did to repair Germany and Japan.

We denazified Germany. From Wiki:

Denazification (German: Entnazifizierung) was an Allied initiative to rid German and Austrian society, culture, press, economy, judiciary, and politics of any remnants of the Nazi regime. It was carried out specifically by removing those involved from positions of influence and by disbanding or rendering impotent the organizations associated with it. The program of denazification was launched after the end of the Second World War and was solidified by the Potsdam Agreement.

Denazification also refers to the removal of the physical symbols of the Nazi regime. For example, in 1957 the German government re-issued World War II Iron Cross medals without the swastika in the center.

I'm pretty sure we banned Mein Kampf in Germany after WWII. Maybe someone can help me out on that one.

We did change the state religion of Japan, demanding that Hirohito declare to the people of Japan that he was not God.

In the aftermath of WWII, we did what we had to do to put an end to ruling ideologies of those two sick nations.

I believe we will find that we will have to do something very similar in the Islamic world.

We already see what happens when we allow Sharia to be enshrined in the Iraqi Constitution. In the early days of the Iraq campaign, I remember seeing photos of women walking the street dressed in a variety of clothing. Now, pretty much all you see is black burqas.

And, Christians (non-Muslims) are leaving Iraq in droves.

158 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:41:09pm

re: #157 Pastorius

So when did the Netherlands go to war and defeat an Islamic country so they can impose these rules on the occupied nation to pacify it? We are talking about the Netherlands remember?

159 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:41:13pm

re: #156 Thanos

I am not so sure about that. Their burqa is a political message. A quiet Jihad on the western values you and I cherish and value dearly

160 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:41:57pm

re: #158 Thanos

AFAIK, The Dutch fought a long and hard campaign in parts of Indonesia in 1950s.

161 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:43:27pm

re: #159 winston06

I am not so sure about that. Their burqa is a political message. A quiet Jihad on the western values you and I cherish and value dearly

If it's political then all the more reason not to ban it. I'd rather be able to clearly identify my political opponents anyway.

162 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:44:23pm

re: #160 winston06

So that gives them the right to ban religious books in their country now? That was over fifty years ago...

163 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:44:28pm

re: #161 Thanos

I dont want a ban on it either but I am saying it is how they wage Jihad against us here in Canada, US or UK.

164 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:45:44pm

re: #162 Thanos

I am not for any ban Thanos. You know, I come from Iran where EVERY THING could be banned. But I understand why so many westerners are frustrated with the Political Islam in their countries.

165 Scion9  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:46:14pm

re: #161 Thanos

If it's political then all the more reason not to ban it. I'd rather be able to clearly identify my political opponents anyway.

I'm not for banning anything; but I think it is often more accurate to say that women who wear the burqa do so as the political and social statement of their husband. I'm sure a great many do technically choose to wear it; however I am highly skeptical of their ability to choose to not wear it.

166 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:47:13pm

re: #163 winston06

You are lecturing the quoir. I completely understand how they work. I even know what itjihad, takfirist, taquiya, hudna, kharijite, and other terms actually mean. I've read milestones, and other extremist texts.

167 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:48:06pm

re: #165 Scion9

That's one of the reasons I sneeringly call it a ninja bag.

168 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:48:31pm

re: #151 Sharmuta

To defend their culture they must defend their laws.

Agreed, but they've hamstrung themselves. If they defend their laws they are accused of racism or religious discrimination. The leadership is Leftist and brainless which handcuffs both the police and the courts. The media is...the media so all we hear about is "youths" burning cars and raping women for no apparent reason.

At some point somebody will do something to try to change this. I hope and pray it will be stalwart defenders of all that is right, bright and beautiful, but I am not counting on it.

169 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:49:41pm

153 Thanos,
You believe women in the West choose to wear the burqa?

I don't agree with you.

I've read too many stories of honor killings, of "moderate" Mosques that turn out to be covering up Jihadist teaching, moderate Mosques that threaten those who do speak out, Muslim men in the Western world with multiple wives, forced marriages, underground Sharia courts.

I live right down the street from the Mosque that Gadahn came from. I attended meetings with the Imam from his Mosque. He was a really "nice" guy. He led the prayers at the meetings.

I also live right down the street from UCI.

And, I live right down the street from where the women in the burqa held the sign saying Hitler was Right! Charles posted it about a month ago.

There are nice people who are Muslims. Plenty of them. But, they don't speak out about the Jihadism in their midst, because they are afraid. Same thing with the women who "choose" to wear burqas.

170 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:49:49pm

re: #166 Thanos

LOL... I am not lecturing. You're the one lecturing here from your moral high ground. I don't claim to know every thing. I am saying it is understandable why Geert Wilders wants Koran to be banned. Probably you should know that one of his countrymen was murdered by an Islamist and his parliamentary colleague is currently on the run in the US (Ayan Hirsi).

have a good day!

171 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:50:17pm

re: #152 winston06

You could set up an online petition, with enough evidence and documents to back our claim, to ask Mr. Wilders not to join these neo-Fascists. I think that's the best thing LGF can do to help win this thing against the Jihadists and their fascists colleagues in Europe.

I will gladly sign such a petition.

172 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:51:49pm

re: #171 USBeast

we should inform Charles about it. He can do it and he has enough readers to wage an online war to warn Mr. Wilders about the risks of alliance with bad guys

173 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:52:35pm

re: #171 USBeast

i just reported your posts and mine so maybe Charles can see them and think about it.

174 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:52:48pm

158 Thanos,

You ask: When did the Netherlands go to war with an Islamic country?

I say: Muslims are bringing the war to the West. There are countless stories of Jihad being preached in Mosques. Do you believe it happens less in the Netherlands than it does in Germany, France, and the UK?

175 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:53:58pm

re: #174 Pastorius

The case of Muslims in Netherlands is so weird. The Christians and Muslims go to pray together and there's a lot of so-called interfaith dialog going on, it is bizarre.

176 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:54:54pm

re: #170 winston06

LOL... I am not lecturing. You're the one lecturing here from your moral high ground. I don't claim to know every thing. I am saying it is understandable why Geert Wilders wants Koran to be banned. Probably you should know that one of his countrymen was murdered by an Islamist and his parliamentary colleague is currently on the run in the US (Ayan Hirsi).

have a good day!

I'm telling you my opinion, which is probably constitutional, you and Pastorius seem to be arguing for something that's probably unconstitutional. If you want to interpret me saying it's a freedom as me liking muslim jihadis you are arguing through ad hominem rather than supporting your side.

177 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:55:32pm

re: #172 winston06

we should inform Charles about it. He can do it and he has enough readers to wage an online war to warn Mr. Wilders about the risks of alliance with bad guys

We don't need to inform Charles. If he isn't reading this, Stinky is.

178 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:56:18pm

re: #176 Thanos

you're mistaken. I am not interpreting any thing here. I am also stating my opinion. You kno, you're not the only one with an opinion here. ;-)

179 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:56:29pm

re: #177 USBeast

i hope he is

180 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:58:05pm

175 Winston,
That's interesting. I never heard about that.

What is it, a Unitarian approach?

Or, is it something more akin to what I would call Chrislam, which is simply a taqiyya version of Islam, where Muslims convince Christians they believe in Christ too.

181 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:58:36pm

re: #174 Pastorius

Of course some of them are, and of course that preaching is going on in some mosques. Does attacking a symptom cure a disease?
Does banning a headscarf stop the hate preachers and murder mullahs from inciting jihad? Does banning books stop it, or just create more support for it?

182 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 6:58:51pm

re: #179 winston06

i hope he is

Sweat it not.

183 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:00:07pm

re: #168 USBeast

Agreed, but they've hamstrung themselves. If they defend their laws they are accused of racism or religious discrimination. The leadership is Leftist and brainless which handcuffs both the police and the courts. The media is...the media so all we hear about is "youths" burning cars and raping women for no apparent reason.

At some point somebody will do something to try to change this. I hope and pray it will be stalwart defenders of all that is right, bright and beautiful, but I am not counting on it.

You would have me believe that it's complete anarchy in europe- it's not. They are quite capable of deciding they're going to enforce their own laws. Or they might decide to turn to fascists who will make being anything but an ethnic member of the tribe illegal.

184 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:01:45pm

I'm pretty sure Mr. Wilders is well aware of the people he's now considering as allies and that there is little a group of non-europeans can do to convince him to change his mind.

185 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:02:41pm

re: #180 Pastorius

Yes it is. My Dutch friend (a tree hugging Liberal of Catholic background who goes to church every sunday and prays before eating food) is active in this thing. He tells me the Muslim kids in Holland have no respect for the elderly and don't abide by the Islamic laws their parents adhere to. It's very complicated.

I keep sending him books from here so he can fight this personal war against them through books, words and opinion.

186 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:03:50pm

181 Thanos,
I'm not supporting banning books. I'm saying that Wilders idea is not out of the mainstream in Europe. And, it is not out of the American mainstream as a device of war.

Because we are in a war with Jihadists, and because Muslims have not organized and stood up against the Jihadists in their midst (on any large scale), I believe Wilders idea is not as crazy as you believe it is.

As I stated before, I certainly don't think Wilders positions are nearly as objectionable as the fact that Britain is caving to Lord Ahmed and barring Wilders from entering the country, after inviting him to come screen Fitna.

187 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:05:15pm

185 Winston,
Yes it is, what? Is it Unitarian, or Chrislam (for want of a better name)?

By the way, do you have any links on this? I'd love to know more.

188 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:08:33pm

Here's one of the things I'm trying to get across: The left owns Europe politically at present. If you aren't working to win some of the left over to your side on immigration, this is a battle you will lose long run. Being rabid racialists/tribal nationalists/hysterical xenophobes is not going to win any of the moderate left over.

You can unite all of the right in Europe, from nutballs like Horst Mahler all the way to the moderates, and it would still be less than 15 to 17 percent of the vote. If you are going to stop the Islamification of Europe, then you better look in the mirror and think about how you can convince the left and the centrists to join you on some issues. Otherwise, just give up.

If you aren't willing to take that step then you are just blowing smoke about anti-jihad, and really working to further the carreers of populist demagogues in Europe. Think about it.

189 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:09:43pm

re: #187 Pastorius

I am sorry I don't know what you mean by unitarian or Chrislam ;-)

Plz expand. But if you mean the way they worship, I don't know. I never asked

190 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:09:56pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

You would have me believe that it's complete anarchy in europe- it's not. They are quite capable of deciding they're going to enforce their own laws. Or they might decide to turn to fascists who will make being anything but an ethnic member of the tribe illegal.

Of course it's not "complete anarchy" in Europe. Complete anarchy would deprive the parasites of their meal ticket. What's happening is just enough anarchy to demand more concessions, more "rights" and more protection from the "racists" who are silly enough to believe that they have any rights at all.

191 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:12:58pm

re: #188 Thanos

I have talked to a few European friends in England, Germany and Holland. All of them die hard liberals and yet they believe the only way to stop this madness of Islamicization is through "Legislation" and "law making".

192 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:17:46pm

re: #191 winston06

I have talked to a few European friends in England, Germany and Holland. All of them die hard liberals and yet they believe the only way to stop this madness of Islamicization is through "Legislation" and "law making".

And as long as the xenophobes and tribalists of the right remain unwilling to compromise on what are really surface issues and political puffery for populism's sake they will never make any ground towards a slowdown of immigration, or means to stop jihadist undergrounds in Europe. The right in Europe is like the left here, they would rather have the problem there so they can campaign on it.

193 USBeast  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:18:13pm

Okay, fellow Lizards, it's time for Ye Olde Beastie to pack it in. I fully realize that this discussion is far from over and I hope and pray that we can continue it without acrimony and actually come up with a viable solution to this very knotty problem.

My best to you and yours,

USBeast

194 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:18:33pm

re: #192 Thanos

agreed

195 winston06  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:18:52pm

re: #193 USBeast

have a great night

196 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:20:34pm

Night USB

197 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 7:27:35pm

re: #180 Pastorius

175 Winston,
That's interesting. I never heard about that.

What is it, a Unitarian approach?

Or, is it something more akin to what I would call Chrislam, which is simply a taqiyya version of Islam, where Muslims convince Christians they believe in Christ too.

You've just described apocalyptic Syrian Sunnism.

Shi'ites and Sunnis all believe in the coming of the Mahdi and the second coming of Christ but they disagree over who comes first and with the most fanfare. The Syrians, for whatever reason (probably the trauma of losing to the 'Abbasids who were, at first, kinda/sorta Zaydi Shi'i) were the most aggressively pro-Jesus.

Harun Yahya, who is an Anatolian, is particularly fond of the Second Coming...

198 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 8:10:41pm

re: #193 USBeast

Just curious.... Why are we solving this? The euros need to figure this out. They really do. They made this mess and it's high time they learned to deal with it.

199 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 8:18:54pm

Anyone who advocates making Islam illegal or banning the Koran is living in a dream world. It's not going to happen. Ever. By advocating this crap, all you do is make yourself look like a fanatic.

If that's cool with you, then go ahead. Knock yourselves out.

200 Pastorius  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 8:46:41pm

I believe I need to make it very clear what I do and do not stand for.

I take seriously the warnings of our Congress, and of National Security experts, that it is inevitable that we will be attacked by "terrorists" with nuclear weapons. Therefore, because it is inevitable, I consider us to be at war with Jihadists. Because Muslims, in general, have not organized on any large scale, and separated themselves from the Jihadists who thrive in their midst, I would say we have a real problem with Islam itself, as well as Jihadism.

However, I do not advocate making Islam illegal, but I do believe that the advocacy of Sharia/Jihad is sedition.

I'm also not in favor of banning the Koran. However, I certainly don't believe that Wilders and the UK are on a level playing field here. The UK is in the wrong, clearly. Wilders is playing by the rules of Europe. Europe bans the books of dangerous ideologies. That's what Europe does. In Germany, Scientology is illegal. In the Netherlands, Mein Kampf is illegal. So, Wilders is in that tradition.

That being said, I also dislike the Vlaams Belang, and if Wilders does indeed go ahead with that alliance, I will be very disappointed.

201 Vik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 8:58:36pm

re: #119 Charles

The way you "defend yourself" against Islam is by using your power of free speech to argue, demonstrate and reveal what you think should be known.

Clearly speech does not work against people who are seeking to achieve their goals by murder, destroying buildings, blowing up public places, etc., as the Islamists are regularly doing today. And of course you have taken this into account. So for free speech to have any efficacy in this matter, you must - correct me if I'm wrong - have in mind that it will be used to encourage the moderate Muslims who are seeking a reformation of Islam.

We all want to see a reformation of Islam into a peaceful religion - of which is it is currently the opposite, as you have shown so powerfully in your ROP posts.

There are multiple efforts underway to seek some interpretation of the Koran which would support such a reformation.

But we are also all aware that the chances of such a reformation are remote.

So we cannot reasonably put all our eggs in that one basket.

Must we leap to the conclusion that the only alternative is fascism? Surely not.

Let's look to the example of another organization which, though not a religion, used violence to intimidate others. Perhaps something can be learned from the way we dealt in this country with the Mafia.

We didn't outlaw the Mafia per se - all we had to do was record audio of them of their leaders ordering murders to be committed, and that was enough to jail its leaders.

Islam doesn't work so differently. No imam points into the crowd at a mosque and says, you, in the third row, go out and blow up a bus next Tuesday.

But what they do is just as dangerous. The imams preach hatred, so that some random person in the mosque self-selects himself to go out and commit an act of violence.

Perhaps all we have to do is recognize this connection, and outlaw that.

202 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 9:11:45pm

re: #201 Vik

Expose the imams, prosecute people who commit crimes, and use the military against stateless terrorist groups. We already have the methods in place to combat militant Islam.

You're dreaming if you think this country will criminalize speech. And if it ever does, it won't be a country I want to live in any more.

203 Vik  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 9:43:17pm

-- use the military against stateless terrorist groups

That works.

-- prosecute people who commit crimes,

That really doesn't work, since radical Islam continuously produces more killers.

-- Expose the imams

This sounds at least remotely like what I was proposing. Can you say a bit more about what you have in mind here?

204 whatdafuq  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 10:28:49pm

Gee Charles, what do you want him to do?

He's asking for the Koran to be treated like other books (e.g. Mein Kampf)
under European/Dutch law. You can't print or publish Mein Kampf. Is that
some egregious violation of free speech? Yea, probably. But it's the law of
his land.

Or would you like him to agitate for publication of Mein Kampf? Then you'd
attack him for being some euro-racist/facist.

Seems no matter what he does-- ask for uniform application of existing law
or try to change existing law-- he is going to run afoul of your principles.

Forget what _you_ would do. What do you want him to do with respect to
the publication of the Koran in the Netherlands and existing Dutch law?

205 rwielaard  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:05:17am

This is how it is in the Netherlands for people who question Islam:
- Theo van Gogh is dead, stabbed to death by a hardcore, homegrown and unrepentant Islamist idiot
- Ex-legislator Ayaan Hirsi Ali has fled to the USA. (Her name was stabbed to Van Gogh's chest)
- Legislator Geert Wilders has bodyguards, is being taken to court and has been barred from the UK
Bat Ye'or is right. European governments (the Netherlands is not alone) bend like reeds to accommodate intolerant Islam. Read her excellent work about how Islam seeks dominance.

206 Cry of Defiance and not of fear  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:01:46am

202 CHARLES:

I have been elsewhere for some time now, posting the follow information on US, British and Continental European sites because I regard it as a direct threat to freedom of speech and, when I first became aware of it, I recognized the manner in which criminalization of speech, and Sharia, could be introduced into Europe and, by extension to America:

In 1948 most nations in the UN signed up to the UN-sponsored Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Several Moslem countries did not do so, saying it conflicted with Islamic values and rights (they were correct in that respect).

In 1990 54 Moslem countries signed up to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam.

The UDHR calls for freedom of speech and religion; the Cairo Declaration differs significantly in this and also declares, in its Articles 24 and 25 that

"All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah"

and

"The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification of any of the articles of this Declaration."

In 1997 the UN agreed to accept and acknowledge the Cairo Declaration as a "regional variation" to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The OIC's attempts to have the UN agree to criminalise criticism of Islam ("Islamophobia") and the Moslem members of the UN's successful attempts to prevent any discussion, let alone, criticism of, Sharia, is a step in extending the 'regional variation' authority of the Cairo Declaration.

Furthermore, the growth of Moslem populations throughout European countries,(and in the US), through either immigration permitted by European countries (usually through the EU), illegal aliens, and deliberate overpopulation in Moslem communities, means that 'Moslem enclaves' have grown in some instances to become significant voting blocs and already operate, as in Britain, Sharia jurisprudence. In this manner, the 'regional variation' of the Cairo Declaration --- entirely antithetical to Western concepts of freedoms of religion and speech, may well become, not merely a 'variation,' or a parallel to established rights, but actually the dominant one by reducing Europe to a region under Islam. Added to which, Sarkozy's support for the "Union of the Mediterranean," seeks to extend the EU to include the Middle East and this action MUST include Europe's accommodation with, and acquiescence to, ultimately, the Cairo Declaration. This would result in criminalizing free speech and refusing Wilders entry into Britain is in line with this.

The EU operates its 'immigration' policies without recourse to public debate and has taken steps to secure the 'immigration' into Europe in the next few years of an estimated 50 million North Africans, thus, principally Moslems. This is a recipe for destruction of human rights as we understand and cherish them in the West, and for civil war.

This is a link to both documents, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam:

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

I think it dangerous and naive to believe it could not happen in the US, given illegal and/or unrestricted immigration, dependence on foreign oil and the present Administration.

207 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:42:16am
208 gcpsteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:40:27am

re: #12 Colonel Panikre: #2 Nevergiveup

He is lucky, the food sucks there anyway

What? You don't like Prime Rib and Yorkshire pudding? "Spotted Dick" and "Bubble and Squeak"? Haggis with "Tatties and Neeps"? Fish and Chips? Shepard's Pie?

Don't forget about "Warm Treackle Sponge" YUM!

209 KillNasrallah  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:03:50am

I think it is almost time that we need to start thinking the whole free speech right.I truly don't believe it to be a positive but when it comes to Islam and the Koran I think Wilders is right.

210 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:10:53am

re: #209 KillNasrallah

Lovely first comment. You want to grant the government the ability to limit speech- what would then stop them from silencing you if others didn't like what you had to say? A little like cutting off your nose to spite your face, don't you think?

211 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:01:40am

What do you know. A bunch of fascist apologists show up. Never could have predicted that.

212 whatdafuq  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 10:15:22am

I hope you're not including me in that broad brush stroke of yours
("a bunch of fascist apologists"). I certainly have not apologized for
fascism here or anywhere.

Seriously though, book banning already happens in the Netherlands.
Should he insist that banned books (pronounced "Mein Kampf") be
published? Should he insist on uniform application of existing law?

He's sort of in a lose-lose situation with your standards. Which of those
two things should he advocate for? Or is there some third way I'm missing?

By "fascist" it looks like you mean the militant supremacist my-group-
is-better-than-your-group-and-we-will-crush-you form and not the
kind talked about in, for example, Jonah Goldberg's excellent book.
But look around. Which exclusive group behaves in this militant fashion
and what is the book do they all hold in esteem as a guide for how to
live your life?

Yes there are hundreds of millions of people who read the Koran and don't
become militant supremacists (fascists) but then there's also hundreds of
millions of people who view the swastika as a religious symbol (Hindus and
some Buddhists) but you can't run around with swastikas in the Netherlands
either.

Your beef should be with Dutch law and not people living under it.

213 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:56:38pm
214 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:01:47pm

#213 Joseph: If you want to post ugly extremist crap like that, do it at another blog. I'm not going to tolerate it here.

215 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:08:30pm

I think desperate times and problems demand desperate solutions. If we don't wake up soon, we're going to find out that we can't win no matter what we do. They have infilitrated the West in great numbers and this is only the beginning!

216 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:08:48pm

re: #209 KillNasrallah

I think it is almost time that we need to start thinking the whole free speech right.I truly don't believe it to be a positive but when it comes to Islam and the Koran I think Wilders is right.

Brilliant
/

217 Fat Jolly Penguin  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:09:23pm

re: #209 KillNasrallah

I think it is almost time that we need to start thinking the whole free speech right.

Holy.

Shit.

218 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:10:31pm

I did not see your post when i posted my second post. I do not think it is fair for you to treat me like that as my comment was not extremist in any way and it is an opinion that is shared by many I know right here in NYC. I've been posting here for many years and have seen much worse without any threats or deletions.

219 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:12:52pm

re: #133 Charles

I'm not offended - it's just that I've heard all of these arguments for compromising principles and hooking up with really bad people because "it's our only choice or we're doomed!" many times before.

I'm still surprised that people will actually argue that we should drop all our integrity and hook up with people who aren't even fit to be spat upon.

Charles, I am certain that you are used to a certain amount of obsequious flattery from adoring lizard followers. I wish to assure you that your integrity has gained my honest appreciation. I hope that did not sound too obsequious.

220 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:14:56pm

re: #218 Joseph

I did not see your post when i posted my second post. I do not think it is fair for you to treat me like that as my comment was not extremist in any way and it is an opinion that is shared by many I know right here in NYC. I've been posting here for many years and have seen much worse without any threats or deletions.

Guess what, it doesn't matter does it? Charles told you to stop. It's his fucking blog and you are a guest. It doesn't matter if you've seen worst her, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, nothing matters except that Charles told you to stop.

Do you understand that?

221 jorline  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:15:16pm

re: #209 KillNasrallah

I think it is almost time that we need to start thinking the whole free speech right.I truly don't believe it to be a positive but when it comes to Islam and the Koran I think Wilders is right.

You might as well hand the nails to this administration while they hammer them into the LGF coffin.

You're for eliminating free speech?

222 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:15:52pm

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

Charles, I am certain that you are used to a certain amount of obsequious flattery from adoring lizard followers. I wish to assure you that your integrity has gained my honest appreciation. I hope that did not sound too obsequious.

I was working all night in my office
when a man I had recently killed
called me up from a phone near my building
so I looked out the window at him
he had the same obsequious manner
that was the reason I had him killed
so to calm my nerves I sang this song
to him, over the phone
Turn around, turn around
There's a thing there that can be found
Turn around, turn arcound
It's a human skull on the ground
Human skull on the ground
Turn around
I was out by myself in the graveyard
I was doing an interpretive dance
when I felt something heavy and pointed
strike me in the back of the neck
and then the ghost of my dance instructor
pushed me down into an open grave
and as dirt rained down she played a xylophone
and sang me this song
We were waving our arms out the window
of a fast moving passenger train
acting in an irresponsible fashion
until the engineer whose back had been turned
and who we thought would find us highly amusing
quickly swiveled his head around
and his face which was a paper-white mask of evil
sang us this song

-They Might Be Giants

223 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:16:51pm

re: #215 Joseph

That's the same rhetoric fascists use. Disgusting.

224 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:16:55pm

re: #215 Joseph

Just another version of "we are all doomed, only those stinky nazis can save us!" that the fascists in Europe pimp Joseph, see my comments upthread about alternatives to these parties. We aren't doomed, Islamofascism hasn't a fucking prayer or a chance in the West long term, but they can cause us a lot of grief and they are as persistent as those nazis.

225 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:19:01pm

So lets see here... fight Islamofascism and it's freedom reducing effects by reducing our freedoms...

BRILLIANT!
/

226 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:23:56pm
227 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:24:07pm

re: #218 Joseph

I did not see your post when i posted my second post. I do not think it is fair for you to treat me like that as my comment was not extremist in any way and it is an opinion that is shared by many I know right here in NYC. I've been posting here for many years and have seen much worse without any threats or deletions.

But I thought you favored restrictions on speech. Now you want to whine your speech is being restricted? A little like having it both ways, don't you think?

228 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:26:08pm

re: #226 Joseph

I really resent the pile-on here. FWIW: My own grandmother and my 5-year old aunt were slaughtered by European fascists during WWII. I am not advocating killing the enemy, only banning it. I knew 3 people murdered on 9-11 and have also known people murdered by Pali terrorists. Only 2-3 weeks ago, I witnessed the enmey shouting 'death to the Jews' in dozens of major cities across the globe and even here in the US.

My father fled for his life from Vienna under similiar riots and mobs (his mother and sister were not that lucky).

I have spent countless hours thinking and studying this issue and my lights tell me that Islam should be outlawed. I make no apologies and feel I'm entitled to my opinion.

1. The weapon used for you will be used against you at some point.
2. See 1.

229 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:27:18pm

If you post that comment one more time, you'll lose your account.

230 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:27:27pm

Addendum: My feelings crystallized after seeing polls in the UK and elsewhere showing that a very large minority (30-40%) ADMITTED to an interviewer that suicide bombing of their host's citizens was justified.

231 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:27:44pm

re: #222 Oh no...Sand People!

I was working all night in my office
when a man I had recently killed
called me up from a phone near my building
so I looked out the window at him
he had the same obsequious manner
that was the reason I had him killed
so to calm my nerves I sang this song
to him, over the phone
Turn around, turn around
There's a thing there that can be found
Turn around, turn arcound
It's a human skull on the ground
Human skull on the ground
Turn around
I was out by myself in the graveyard
I was doing an interpretive dance
when I felt something heavy and pointed
strike me in the back of the neck
and then the ghost of my dance instructor
pushed me down into an open grave
and as dirt rained down she played a xylophone
and sang me this song
We were waving our arms out the window
of a fast moving passenger train
acting in an irresponsible fashion
until the engineer whose back had been turned
and who we thought would find us highly amusing
quickly swiveled his head around
and his face which was a paper-white mask of evil
sang us this song

-They Might Be Giants

Man, and here I am trying not to sound that way - feeling awkward and all, and you have to hit me with the Giants!

232 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:28:30pm

re: #226 Joseph

So you fail to see how banning one religion, in violation of our Constitution, has no similarity to the nazis trying to effectively ban Judaism. That's some serious cognitive dissonance.

233 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:29:23pm

Do what you must do, Charles. While I'll miss LGF and really enjoyed it for years, I don't think my opinion is so out of line. In fact, I fear that it il ltake a second 9-11 unfortunately to further awaken you.

234 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:29:24pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

Heh. Haven't heard or read the word, "obsequious" in quite a while. So when you typed it, that was the first thing that came to my head.

235 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:31:05pm

re: #233 Joseph

I think it's disgusting you're embracing the rhetoric and mindset that you stated killed members of your own family.

236 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:31:21pm

re: #233 Joseph

Weak sauce, jeeves. Weak sauce. Asking for the ban hammer and then will pretend to be the 'martyr' to 'free speech' when the 'doublethink' in you is wants 'free speech for me' but none for 'thee' [islam].

237 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:31:23pm
So you fail to see how banning one religion, in violation of our Constitution, has no similarity to the nazis trying to effectively ban Judaism. That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I see.. The Joooos were threatening to destroy Germany and had 50 countries of their own and had murdered many (or even a single) Germans... You should be embarrassed to make such a comparison.

btw, I never said or implied that I support any European fascist group.

238 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:32:50pm

re: #233 Joseph

Do what you must do, Charles. While I'll miss LGF and really enjoyed it for years, I don't think my opinion is so out of line. In fact, I fear that it il ltake a second 9-11 unfortunately to further awaken you.

So, you admit that you have become the bigot and fascist that you hate?

239 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:33:03pm

re: #237 Joseph

Your family should be appalled you're embracing the mindset of people who murdered your own kin.

240 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:33:57pm

re: #237 Joseph

I see.. The Joooos were threatening to destroy Germany and had 50 countries of their own and had murdered many (or even a single) Germans... You should be embarrassed to make such a comparison.

btw, I never said or implied that I support any European fascist group.

You don't have to support any fascist groups, you are you own little fascist, a group of one. How does it feel?

241 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:34:17pm

re: #237 Joseph

The Joooos were threatening to destroy Germany

Are you denying that was the rhetoric the nazis used?

242 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:35:11pm

If you folks saw the numbers I see wherever I go, you'd be pretty worried as well. And already innocent people just blocks from where I work have been murdered (outside of 9-11) as well by the enemy.

243 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:35:23pm

I'll try to explain this again.

When you post this stupid "Ban Islam! The Moslems are gonna get us!" crap, all you do is make yourself look like a fanatic, and by extension you make LGF look like an extremist website, and I'm way past the point of being tired of indulging this garbage.

It is NOT going to happen. Ever. You achieve NOTHING by spouting this nonsense. No decent person is ever going to support banning books and religions. You LOSE when you do this.

244 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:35:48pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

Are you denying that was the rhetoric the nazis used?

Sharm, he's on a mission, both to self destruct and to show his true colors as he does it. You question will not help him understand. He already understands and has decided to take the dark side.

let him.

245 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:36:40pm

Correction: you do achieve something: you discredit me and my website, and I won't tolerate it. I hope that's clear enough.

246 Joseph  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:38:28pm

What do I care re the rhetoric they used was? The bottom line was that the Jews generally wanted nothing more than to live in peace (and many wanted to assimilate) and no Jewish group or even individual that I'm aware of EVER murdered a European or German for nationalistic reasons of any sort. Furthermore, the Jews had no country or army of their own in any way and were led to the slaughter like sheep.

Who in their right mind would make such comparisons?

Walter: It wasn't so long ago I saw people piling on unfairly against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

247 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:39:38pm

This is like 'crabs in barrel'. Since a lot of the 'conservative' blogs have discredited themselves, they must now try to bring down one the few remaining bastions of intellectual honesty.

248 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:40:58pm

re: #246 Joseph

What do I care re the rhetoric they used was?

You obviously don't care. You're embracing it yourself.

249 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:42:59pm

re: #246 Joseph

Walter: It wasn't so long ago I saw people piling on unfairly against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Hey shithead, I'm not the issue here, you are. And the plain and simple issue here is YOU have been told to stop.

250 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:43:11pm

re: #242 Joseph

Ha Ha! I made his Karma negative.

251 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:43:35pm

re: #246 Joseph

I think you'll be happier posting comments at jihad watch, where your notions will receive support, because they won't get it here.

252 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:43:43pm
253 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:44:11pm

re: #242 Joseph

If you folks saw the numbers I see wherever I go, you'd be pretty worried as well. And already innocent people just blocks from where I work have been murdered (outside of 9-11) as well by the enemy.

We are not blind to the threat. We 'get it'. We just disagree on tactics used. You are advocating lawlessness and mob rule. We aren't.

254 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:44:37pm

I do not give idle warnings. Buh-bye.

255 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:45:32pm

re: #252 Joseph

Again, I never advocated killing innocent people or people that belong to ANY religion.

Right- because banning their religion will be met with peaceful understanding on their part. Not a single muslim will will fight (perhaps violently) for their right to Free Exercise.

256 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:46:20pm

re: #252 Joseph

Charles: I have no intention of discrediting you or anyone else in the world for that matter.

Yet you do it anyway.

Is that a stick I hear swinging?

257 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:47:33pm

re: #246 Joseph

What do I care re the rhetoric they used was? The bottom line was that the Jews generally wanted nothing more than to live in peace (and many wanted to assimilate) and no Jewish group or even individual that I'm aware of EVER murdered a European or German for nationalistic reasons of any sort. Furthermore, the Jews had no country or army of their own in any way and were led to the slaughter like sheep.

Who in their right mind would make such comparisons?

Walter: It wasn't so long ago I saw people piling on unfairly against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Joseph,

Respectfully, one tribe member to another, you bring us down when you say these things. We have been falsely on the receiving end of the things you are saying for centuries. I hear your anger. I hear your frustration. But, we need to step up and maintain *our* principles.

You can fight Jihad much more effectively by openly and sanely talking about the ugly truths of it. Saying that an entire faith be banned - an action which harms the innocent along with the guilty is not an American principle. It is not a Jewish principle. It is however, food for our real enemies.

258 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:49:46pm
259 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:51:58pm

re: #258 wrenchwench

Despite Ban, Dutch Lawmaker Vows to Visit 'Cowardly' Britain

Of course, now he'll turn it into a publicity stunt.

260 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:20:01pm

People on the right, who advocate banning this or that particular issue, be it islam or abortion or what have you, are actually show a high level of ignorance intellectually. It's as though they think a Constitutional ban is a simple matter, when in fact, it's quite a difficult hurdle to clear.

A proposed amendment needs two separate super majorities to pass and become part of the Constitution. It is proposed by a 2/3 vote by both houses of Congress or 2/3 of the state legislatures.

It then needs 3/4 of the state legislatures or 3/4 of the states in convention to be incorporated into the Constitution.

If people honestly think they can achieve both super majorities to get a Constitutional ban on any social or religious issue, I think they are utterly deceiving themselves. It will never happen, as the electorate will not put into power the number of people needed to see such knee-jerk solutions to these issues. Never. Quit deluding yourself by espousing such nonsense. Not only is it wrong, it's embarrassing.

261 Flavia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:02:49pm

I firmly believe that Geert Wilder's progression is exactly what happens when evil grows & no one listens: you slowly go over the edge in fighting it. If people had heeded him (or those like him) long before this, I guarantee you Wilder would not have gone this far.

262 Wilderstad  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:03:59pm

The article linked to by Charles said that Wilders is considering forming an alliance with Vlams Belang. Not that he's done that. Granted it would be a very bad idea to join forces with such people.
Dutch law already bans Mein Kampf. If we're comparing evil with evil, than the Koran is no less evil than Mein Kampf.
IMHO, I think Wilders is being provocative. Besides you can't ban a book that is memorized by millions, even if they don't understand a word of what they've memorized as children.

263 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:04:35pm
264 Flavia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:07:00pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

I don't know if you're told enough, but thank you.

What she said.

265 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:08:50pm

Another creepy moron bites the dust. Good luck with banning Islam, jerk.

266 Flavia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:16:42pm

re: #215 Joseph

I think desperate times and problems demand desperate solutions. If we don't wake up soon, we're going to find out that we can't win no matter what we do. They have infilitrated the West in great numbers and this is only the beginning!

This is how it starts. Say stuff that sounds reasonable - "we're scared because they're doing terrible things" - & let it snowball. We all know where that ends up - either Manzanar & Minidoka or Auschwitz & Dachau.

This is why we all have to be on guard, & not just about others, but about ourselves. When we start thinking things like this, we have to make sure we have an end in sight.

267 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:18:20pm

re: #262 Wilderstad

The article linked to by Charles said that Wilders is considering forming an alliance with Vlams Belang. Not that he's done that. Granted it would be a very bad idea to join forces with such people.

Read the thread.

268 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:27:59pm

re: #266 Flavia

This is how it starts. Say stuff that sounds reasonable - "we're scared because they're doing terrible things" - & let it snowball. We all know where that ends up - either Manzanar & Minidoka or Auschwitz & Dachau.

This is why we all have to be on guard, & not just about others, but about ourselves. When we start thinking things like this, we have to make sure we have an end in sight.

If in the course of opposing an ideology we find offensive we become that with which we oppose, then what is the point of opposing it in the first place?

269 Wilderstad  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:30:30pm

re: #267 Sharmuta

I have read the thread and it's myriad opinons. I have read the article. Considering means exactly that considering, weighing the benefits and costs. Doesn't mean it will happen for certain.
My opinion.

270 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:31:12pm

re: #269 Wilderstad

Then you saw #54?

271 keefe  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 10:18:36pm

....threaten community harmony ?

Isn't disharmony the way of the English, masters that they are of invective?

There's some serious disconnect going on here.

272 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 11:24:25pm
273 Martyr of Gorinchem  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 5:05:29am

This [Link: tinyurl.com...] is the verdict of the Amsterdam Court of Appeal against the decision of the DA NOT to prosecute Geert Wilders for hate speech e.a. After appeal against the DA's decision the Court ordered the Openbaar Ministerie [ DA ] to prosecute GW in full before a criminal judge.

In my country is, thanks to the Enlightment, the Right of Complaint against ANY decision of ANY organ of the Royal Commonwealth of The Netherlands appeable. The only Human Right which doesn't interfere with all the other rights as laid down in constitutions, treaties, laws und so weiter.

In a criminal case a victim of assault or robbery, slander or hate speech for instance can always can always ask a court a order for the DA to prosecute for full a criminal of whom a DA has said 'let at be' or let's make a deal. Plea bargaining is - if I may say so - the rotten teeth in your judicial criminal system. It is anyway no part of our style of living.

This so called art 12 Criminal code procedure is free of any charge and you do not need a sollicitor or a lawyer. Just a few poststamps.

274 whatdafuq  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 10:02:39am

re: #77 Charles

Hmmm, well you can imagine he's quite a busy guy.

In your past post about his alliance with VB does he not say that the
group may have changed over the past year? He even says that local
Jewish groups are saying that. And he's "considering" an alliance but he
has to look into whether VB has changed or not. There's a few
qualifiers in the statement that it seems you're ignoring.

The Democratic Party in the USA used to be the party of racist white
southerners and its past is full of ugly quotes from ugly people. But now
if you ask Joe Random on the street about which major US party is the
bigoted party it's pretty doubtful he'd say the Democrats.

So parties can change. I don't give two shits about VB but I still think you're
being a bit harsh on Geert. If VB changed would it not be
acceptable to you for some other European party to have an alliance with
it in an upcoming election for the European parliament? Or is a party tarnished
for eternity?

275 SaintGeorgeGentile  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 8:49:15pm

re: #33 Wishing

Totally off topic:

Today in the mail I received a dog toy for my 10 month old Redbone coon dog. The toy is 9 out of possible 10 for toughness.
She had the stuffing out of it in less than 2 minutes.
I think I will buy her some tire rubber.
I give up.

Have you tried a Kong toy? Our Ridgeback was never able to chew through it. You can also try a lacrosse ball, solid hard rubber.


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