Pope Bashes Intelligent Design

Religion • Views: 4,708

It’s a constant refrain from people sent into a tailspin by my criticisms of “intelligent design” creationism: I’m “bashing Christians,” they claim.

Well, here’s another person who’s “bashing Christians:” Vatican buries the hatchet with Charles Darwin.

A leading official declared yesterday that Darwin’s theory of evolution was compatible with Christian faith, and could even be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. “In fact, what we mean by evolution is the world as created by God,” said Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture. The Vatican also dealt the final blow to speculation that Pope Benedict XVI might be prepared to endorse the theory of Intelligent Design, whose advocates credit a “higher power” for the complexities of life.

Why does the Pope hate Christians?

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521 comments
1 Big Steve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:12:03pm

I'm running Benedict for Texas State Board of Education!

2 RightLogic  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:12:25pm

The Pope hates Christians?! That statement has more soundness to it than any ID theory.

3 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:12:38pm
Why does the Pope hate Christians?


His german heritage?

4 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:13:36pm

Benedict is pulling on the right end of the rope..

5 filetandrelease  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:14:21pm

"Hey, this creation stuff is tricky, it takes a few billion years to get it right!" God.

6 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:15:20pm

I don't even know how to get out a good snark on this one.
It's like there is a room full of eggshells and I am tiptoeing for some reason...

7 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:15:30pm

The Pope isn't a REAL Christian.

/////KIDDING, but I figure there are some that believe that.

8 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:15:30pm

re: #5 filetandrelease

"Hey, this creation stuff is tricky, it takes a few billion years to get it right!" God.


He started small and said to himself
"I can do better than that"

9 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:15:31pm

re: #2 RightLogic

The Pope hates Christians?!

Heh. Who knew?

10 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:15:33pm

The Pope's not Christian.
/what some people really think, though

11 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:16:00pm

The Vatican's views on the subject do seem to be evol-aw, skipit.

12 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:16:28pm

re: #10 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The Pope's not Christian.
/what some people really think, though


GYMKATA

13 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:16:44pm
Why does the Pope hate Christians?


Then Obama has nothing to worry about
/?

14 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:17:12pm

re: #7 Ben Hur

The Pope isn't a REAL Christian.

/////KIDDING, but I figure there are some that believe that.

Yes, there are, I've had people tell me that the Pope and Catholicism is not real Christianity.

15 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:17:26pm

I have said before that the Roman Church has this bit right, Here is an excellent read on the subject. Helped me mightily with reconciling science & theology.

It is a very catholic in its approach, but as a Prod, I can dig it.

16 Kragar  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:17:32pm

Pfff, the Pope, what does he know?

///

17 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:17:55pm
18 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:18:19pm

oops, that will lead to an interesting reaction by Mike Huckabee ....

19 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:18:21pm

re: #5 filetandrelease

"Hey, this creation stuff is tricky, it takes a few billion years to get it right!" God.

I understand the jury is out on whether that was 16 billion or 64 billion.

20 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:18:32pm

re: #14 reine.de.tout

Yes, there are, I've had people tell me that the Pope and Catholicism is not real Christianity.

*raises hand*, "Don't forget us 'mormons'"
/Puts victim card back in wallet....

21 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:19:08pm

re: #17 Iron Fist

Seventh Day Adventists believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Really.

they're on to something I'd say

22 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:20:08pm

re: #17 Iron Fist

So do JW's, pretty much. Not A.C. per-se, but close.

23 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:20:19pm

re: #7 Ben Hur

The Pope isn't a REAL Christian.

/////KIDDING, but I figure there are some that believe that.

Yep.

24 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:20:21pm

NOw now, let's keep it civil.

25 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:20:34pm

Charles,
Clearly many Christians find no conflict between evolutionary biology and their personal religious beliefs.

So when your critics accuse you of "bashing Christians", what they really mean is that you're bashing them and their silly, half-baked theories.

26 debutaunt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:20:50pm

re: #17 Iron Fist

Seventh Day Adventists believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Really.

The Sixth-Day-Adventists believe that the Fifth-Day-Adventurers are ummm headed to Vegas.

27 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:05pm

re: #17 Iron Fist

Seventh Day Adventists believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Really.

Every one? That's some anti-christ!

28 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:09pm

tackling the hard issues....guys on a blowhard search and destroy mission

29 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:31pm

re: #17 Iron Fist

Seventh Day Adventists believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Really.

And don't forget the Rastafarians!

30 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:33pm

re: #15 unreconstructed rebel

I have said before that the Roman Church has this bit right, Here is an excellent read on the subject. Helped me mightily with reconciling science & theology.

It is a very catholic in its approach, but as a Prod, I can dig it.

From the blurb at the link:

Exposing the faith to mockery with false arguments of this kind is not right; indeed, it is explicitly to be rejected. . .
31 Unakite  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:35pm

re: #19 unreconstructed rebel

I understand the jury is out on whether that was 16 billion or 64 billion.

That's the 64 billion-dollar question.

32 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:35pm

re: #17 Iron Fist

Seventh Day Adventists believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Really.

I would like to hear that from a Seventh Day Adventist. The ones I know wouldn't say such a thing.

33 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:40pm

The only question I have is how long before the Catholics make the big "O" a Saint ?
I think they have to be dead first but the "O" is different

34 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:41pm

re: #14 reine.de.tout

Yes, there are, I've had people tell me that the Pope and Catholicism is not real Christianity.

Yup. As someone once pointed out, that viewpoint seems to have been restricted mainly to English-speaking countries, probably because of the continuous rebellions against non-Biblical-literalist/non-Northern-European-controlled Christianity in the Anglophonic world.

Two points to consider:

1) There was a Church for three centuries before there was a Bible; and
2) The Bible itself was assembled in 325 A.D. by what was, by anyone's standards, the Catholic hierarchy.

35 crimeshark  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:53pm
He expected, of course—like some grown people who ought to know better—to find her snipping, piecing, fitting, stitching, cobbling, basting, filing, planing, hammering, turning, polishing, moulding, measuring, chiselling, clipping, and so forth, as men do when they go to work to make anything.

But, instead of that, she sat quite still with her chin upon her hand, looking down into the sea with two great grand blue eyes, as blue as the sea itself. Her hair was as white as the snow—for she was very very old—in fact, as old as anything which you are likely to come across, except the difference between right and wrong.

And, when she saw Tom, she looked at him very kindly.

“What do you want, my little man? It is long since I have seen a water-baby here.”

Tom told her his errand, and asked the way to the Other-end-of-Nowhere.

“You ought to know yourself, for you have been there already.”

“Have I, ma’am? I’m sure I forget all about it.”

“Then look at me.”

And, as Tom looked into her great blue eyes, he recollected the way perfectly.

Now, was not that strange?

“Thank you, ma’am,” said Tom. “Then I won’t trouble your ladyship any more; I hear you are very busy.”

“I am never more busy than I am now,” she said, without stirring a finger.

“I heard, ma’am, that you were always making new beasts out of old.”

“So people fancy. But I am not going to trouble myself to make things, my little dear. I sit here and make them make themselves.”

“You are a clever fairy, indeed,” thought Tom. And he was quite right.

That is a grand trick of good old Mother Carey’s, and a grand answer, which she has had occasion to make several times to impertinent people.

There was once, for instance, a fairy who was so clever that she found out how to make butterflies. I don’t mean sham ones; no: but real live ones, which would fly, and eat, and lay eggs, and do everything that they ought; and she was so proud of her skill that she went flying straight off to the North Pole, to boast to Mother Carey how she could make butterflies.

But Mother Carey laughed.

“Know, silly child,” she said, “that any one can make things, if they will take time and trouble enough: but it is not every one who, like me, can make things make themselves.”

Charles Kingsley
The Water Babies

36 Kragar  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:21:57pm

St Thomas Aquinas Quotes:

Beware of the person of one book.

Clearly the person who accepts the Church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the Church teaches.

Most men seem to live according to sense rather than reason.

The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.

37 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:22:39pm
38 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:22:55pm

re: #20 Oh no...Sand People!

*raises hand*, "Don't forget us 'mormons'"
/Puts victim card back in wallet....

Heh.
I never got my victim card out.

It is what it is.

39 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:23:18pm

re: #33 ThinkRight

The only question I have is how long before the Catholics make the big "O" a Saint ?

Why would want to Catholics make Obama a saint?...I don't get it.

40 Unakite  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:23:43pm

re: #31 Unakite
re: #19 unreconstructed rebel

I understand the jury is out on whether that was 16 billion or 64 billion.

That's the 64 billion-dollar question.


Which, by the way, is less than 10% of the stimulus package.

41 HelloDare  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:24:21pm

Pope carries no weight with Ben Stein.

42 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:24:31pm

Countdown until someone says: "Hey, you were just bashing the Pope for the Richard Williamson thing! Now you want to use him to support your opinion? Hypocrite! Atheist! Why do you hate Christians?"

43 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #39 Ringo the Gringo

Why would want to Catholics make Obama a saint?...I don't get it.


He is a messiah, a god and the Saviour to the planet they keep telling us

44 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:24:58pm
A leading official declared yesterday that Darwin’s theory of evolution was compatible with Christian faith, and could even be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas

Uh -- sorry to break the news to the Vatican, but the ancient Greeks also grasped that evolution occurred, a thousand years before St. Augustine came along. But what nobody -- including the Greeks and St. Augustine -- could figure out is how it occurred. For that, we needed Alfred Russel Wallace, Charles Darwin, and Gregor Mendel -- all working in the 1850s and 1860s. Those three geniuses, combined, made the breakthrough and proved the case conclusively for natural selection - -or, as Darwin put it, "descent through modification."

45 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:25:18pm

re: #42 Charles

Countdown until someone says: "Hey, you were just bashing the Pope for the Richard Williamson thing! Now you want to use him to support your opinion? Hypocrite! Atheist! Why do you hate Christians?"

I'm already preparing to take cover.

46 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:25:18pm
47 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:25:32pm

re: #43 ThinkRight
Forgot the sarc tag
/

48 Maximu§  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:25:54pm

Well my Pope has spoken.....so let it be written, so let it be done.

Rameses II

49 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:26:09pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

No, no. That was MY victim card I was putting away.

50 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:26:10pm
51 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:26:31pm

And let's not forget Thomas Malthus, who inspired Darwin.

52 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:26:43pm

re: #21 2by2

they're on to something I'd say

Care to explain?

53 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:26:49pm

I just wish such sick hyperbole as "bash" would go away.
That and the phrase "shoving it down my throat".
These both imply that criticism is a violent act.

54 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:26:51pm

re: #49 Oh no...Sand People!

No, no. That was MY victim card I was putting away.

ah.
Well, we victims have to stick together.
Power in numbers, doncha know . . .

55 Wild Knight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:27:08pm

re: #44 zombie

but the ancient Greeks also grasped that evolution occurred, a thousand years before St. Augustine came along.

Hi Zombie. Any specific info on the above? I'm studying classics and this is the kind of nugget I like to look up.

56 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:27:23pm

re: #51 zombie

And let's not forget Thomas Malthus, who inspired Darwin.


And let's not forget Pedro, who carried his luggage on his head while Darwin trepsed around looking at little fury things.

57 formercorpsman  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:27:25pm

re: #2 RightLogic

Yes, of course it does.

58 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:27:34pm
59 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:28:05pm

re: #53 Taqiyyotomist

I just wish such sick hyperbole as "bash" would go away.
That and the phrase "shoving it down my throat".
These both imply that criticism is a violent act.

the 'velvet bash' feels less aggressive

60 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:28:10pm

re: #56 Ben Hur

And let's not forget Pedro, who carried his luggage on his head while Darwin trepsed around looking at little fury things.

Pygmy Muslims ?

61 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:28:11pm

re: #33 ThinkRight

The only question I have is how long before the Catholics make the big "O" a Saint ?
I think they have to be dead first but the "O" is different

re: #39 Ringo the Gringo

Why would want to Catholics make Obama a saint?...I don't get it.

I don't get it either. What brought that on?

62 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:28:29pm

Taliban assault ministries in Kabul
By Bill Roggio

The Taliban launched a coordinated assault on two Afghan ministries and a prison headquarters in the capital of Kabul, resulting in 19 people killed and more than 50 wounded.

The assault consisted of three teams of suicide bombers and gunmen who fanned out in the early morning to attack the Justice and Education ministries in the heart of the city, as well as at an office of the Prisons Department on the edge of the city.

Coordinated multiple attacks in the capital city.

Quagmire, Obama?

63 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:28:46pm

re: #34 mikalm

1) There was a Church for three centuries before there was a Bible

Which must have made Mass pretty awkward.

"A reading from the Book of...." [looks quizzically around room... everyone shrugs]

64 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:29:25pm
65 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:29:50pm

re: #52 Occasional Reader

joking,
don't know how to use the comedy tag...

66 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:29:52pm

re: #60 SasquatchOnSteroids

Pygmy Muslims ?

don't mess with my Pygmies bro....I'll need them later

67 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #56 Ben Hur

And let's not forget Pedro, who carried his luggage on his head while Darwin trepsed around looking at little fury things.

Actually, Darwin rode his own horse and lived authentically like a gaucho in South America. He was no dilettante who relied on servants to carry his stuff around!

Actually, he did have a teenaged English boy who was a sailor on the Beagle who helped him with expeditions, carrying supplies and stuff. But no "Pedro"s.

68 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:30:34pm

re: #64 buzzsawmonkey

There was a long weight for the mass.

The services were conducted with an air of gravity.

69 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:30:39pm
70 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:30:54pm

re: #44 zombie

I doubt that's news to the Vatican, zombie. The point of the phrase "could even be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas" was to show that there is a prior relationship between Christian thinkers and evolution-supporting ideas.

In other words, this is not a History of Evolutionary Theory being presented in this sentence. It's not about Greece. It's not about the origins of evolutionary theory, but about it's prior treatment by well-established early Christian thinkers.

71 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:30:56pm

re: #68 OldLineTexan

The services were conducted with an air of gravity.

And yet, not without energy.

72 jjmckay1216  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:11pm

re: #26 debutaunt

u can't go to vegas. the messiah said so, remember?

73 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:21pm

re: #63 Occasional Reader

Which must have made Mass pretty awkward.

"A reading from the Book of...." [looks quizzically around room... everyone shrugs]

You know of course that there were extant writings, which were only gathered and voted INTO the canon.

74 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:28pm

re: #60 SasquatchOnSteroids

Pygmy Muslims ?

Good grief, I thought i was the only one who remembers that mummy.

75 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:29pm

re: #69 Iron Fist

I thought everyone was in agreement that Obama is a god, not a saint...

close...the god

76 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:51pm

re: #50 Iron Fist

I spent roughly six months to a year back in the '80s studying biblical prophesy (mostly Revelations and Danial) with the Seventh Day Adventists. I don't recall if they were some subsect or not, but that was very much what their take on the whole thing was. They didn't start out with that premise, of course, but built towards it over the course of time.

Truth is I grew up Episcopalian Anglican & that idea appears throughout protestantism.

77 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #44 zombie

Uh -- sorry to break the news to the Vatican, but the ancient Greeks also grasped that evolution occurred, a thousand years before St. Augustine came along. But what nobody -- including the Greeks and St. Augustine -- could figure out is how it occurred. For that, we needed Alfred Russel Wallace, Charles Darwin, and Gregor Mendel -- all working in the 1850s and 1860s. Those three geniuses, combined, made the breakthrough and proved the case conclusively for natural selection - -or, as Darwin put it, "descent through modification."

And of course, Gregor Mendel, the "Father of Genetics," was a Catholic - an Augustinian monk.

78 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #71 Occasional Reader

And yet, not without energy.

If they were held upstairs, potentially.

79 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:05pm

re: #67 zombie

Actually, he did have a teenaged English boy who was a sailor on the Beagle who helped him with expeditions, carrying supplies and stuff.

Darwin?

A slave-owner?!?!?!?!?!?

80 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:13pm

re: #65 2by2

joking,
don't know how to use the comedy tag...

Okay. Downding reversed.

81 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:17pm

re: #33 ThinkRight

Many evangelicals think he's the anti-Christ.

82 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:25pm

re: #63 Occasional Reader

Which must have made Mass pretty awkward.

"A reading from the Book of...." [looks quizzically around room... everyone shrugs]

There were Gospels and other holy writings around, but they weren't assembled into a canonical whole until 325 A.D. I'm not enough of a student of liturgy to tell you the details of what happened in the pre-Bible Mass, though.

83 Kragar  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:31pm

re: #73 OldLineTexan

You know of course that there were extant writings, which were only gathered and voted INTO the canon.

Yeah, which explains why the Book of Kragar the First got excluded. The jealous bastards.

///

84 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:46pm

re: #74 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Good grief, I thought i was the only one who remembers that mummy.

Interesting.

85 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:32:50pm

re: #69 Iron Fist

I thought everyone was in agreement that Obama is a god, not a saint...

Got it. A bit slow today.

86 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:33:05pm

re: #74 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Good grief, I thought i was the only one who remembers that mummy.

other than spooky mummies, that is some mighty fine country up there

87 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:33:07pm

re: #73 OldLineTexan

You know of course that there were extant writings, which were only gathered and voted INTO the canon.

Yes, and I also know that it doesn't REALLY take three Polish people to change a lightbulb. Sheesh.

88 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:33:30pm

re: #80 Occasional Reader

Okay. Downding reversed.

phew, (wipes brow) that was close!
thanks for the reverse ding

89 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:33:42pm

re: #84 SasquatchOnSteroids

Interesting.

I thought "Pedro" was a reference to the mummy. What were you thinking of?

90 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:33:47pm

re: #33 ThinkRight

The only question I have is how long before the Catholics make the big "O" a Saint ?
I think they have to be dead first but the "O" is different

He's no saint candidate...but, he may qualify for purgatory.
/

91 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:33:54pm

re: #87 Occasional Reader

Yes, and I also know that it doesn't REALLY take three Polish people to change a lightbulb. Sheesh.

No, that's up to six now.

92 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:17pm

re: #87 Occasional Reader

Yes, and I also know that it doesn't REALLY take three Polish people to change a lightbulb. Sheesh.

Yeah, it takes four.
/ducks

93 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:21pm

re: #67 zombie

Actually, he did have a teenaged English boy who was a sailor on the Beagle who helped him with expeditions, carrying supplies and stuff

In English public school lexicon, such a boy would be called a "fag".

Really.

94 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:25pm

re: #83 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, which explains why the Book of Kragar the First got excluded. The jealous bastards.

///

Actually, that's part of the Gnostic Apocrypha -- the Kodex Kragar.

95 WriterMom  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:35pm

Wow. I never thought I would see the day where I would rather hang out on an Egyptian cleric/aids/ebola/cholera thread.

Hahahahhaaha.

96 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:43pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Many evangelicals think he's the anti-Christ.

Well, I don't, so kindly stone me last.

97 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:45pm

re: #55 Wild Knight

Hi Zombie. Any specific info on the above? I'm studying classics and this is the kind of nugget I like to look up.

Start with Anaximander and Empedocles:

Evolutionary theory begins with the Ionian philosopher Anaximander (ca. 611 - 546 B. C. E.). Very little is known about his life, but it is known that he wrote a long poem, On Nature, summarizing his researches. This poem is now lost, and has survived only in extracts quoted in other works. Enough survives, however, that Anaximander's thought can be reconstructed with some confidence. For Anaximander, the world had arisen from an undifferentiated, indeterminate substance, the apeiron. The Earth, which had coalesced out of the apeiron, had been covered in water at one stage, with plants and animals arising from mud. Humans were not present at the earliest stages; they arose from fish. This poem was quite influential on later thinkers, including Aristotle.

Had Anaximander looked at fossils? Did he study comparative fish and human anatomy? Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing what evidence Anaximander used to support his ideas. His theory bears some resemblance to evolutionary theory ...

Empedocles claimed that the Earth had given birth to living creatures, but that the first creatures had been disembodied organs. These organs finally joined into whole organisms, through the force of Love, but some of these organisms, being monstrous and unfit for life, had died out.

The theory seems a bit bizarre today, but Empedocles had come up with a sort of evolutionary theory: past natural selection is responsible for the forms we see today. Empedocles also ascribed the origin of the life of today to the interplay of impersonal forces, in which chance, not the gods, played the major role. There are, however, major differences between Empedocles's ideas and natural selection in the modern sense: Empedocles conceived of his "natural selection" as a past event, not as an ongoing process.

Etc.

98 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:34:55pm

re: #90 notutopia

He's no saint candidate...but, he may qualify for purgatory.
/


Tell that to all the Obots
/

99 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:00pm

re: #93 Occasional Reader

In English public school lexicon, such a boy would be called a "fag".

Really.

That was going to be the jist of the first joke, than I thought better of it.

100 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:04pm

re: #67 zombie

Actually, Darwin rode his own horse and lived authentically like a gaucho in South America. He was no dilettante who relied on servants to carry his stuff around!

Actually, he did have a teenaged English boy who was a sailor on the Beagle who helped him with expeditions, carrying supplies and stuff. But no "Pedro"s.

You mean, Darwin had a cabin boy?

Youtube Video
101 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:06pm

re: #89 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I thought "Pedro" was a reference to the mummy. What were you thinking of?

The reference to little fury things , #56

102 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:12pm

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

103 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:28pm

re: #93 Occasional Reader

In English public school lexicon, such a boy would be called a "fag".

Really.

Funny, I thought the term was "peg boy."

104 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:44pm

re: #98 ThinkRight

Tell that to all the Obots
/

Are there that many Catholic Obots?

105 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:47pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Many evangelicals think he's the anti-Christ.

When the pope performs miracles, signs, etc., and when the Pope brainwashes a large percentage of the world into thinking that he's Christ returned, call me. Many evangelicals base their thoughts upon emotion, not the text of their own Bible.

MANY EVANGELICALS TAUGHT THAT BUSH WAS THE ANTICHRIST.

I know a few. Their churches fostered this notion. Their predominately liberal-democrat churches.

106 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:35:49pm

re: #67 zombie

Actually, Darwin rode his own horse and lived authentically like a gaucho in South America

It would be SO cool if we had an authenticated story of Charles Darwin in a knife-fight!

107 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:36:12pm

re: #103 Creeping Eruption

Funny, I thought the term was "peg boy."


Pool Boy ?
/mad tv

108 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:36:34pm

re: #104 notutopia

Are there that many Catholic Obots?

He did get the majority of Catholic votes.

109 formercorpsman  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:36:37pm

re: #82 mikalm

Vulgate

110 jjmckay1216  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:36:48pm

re: #100 Charles

uhoh got a bad feeling about this, lol

111 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:37:13pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

By freeing the cabin boys.

112 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:37:14pm

re: #100 Charles

Oh, my, God.

I haven't thought of that movie in years.

And that was a good thing. Forgetfulness. The blessings thereof.

Why, Charles?

WHY?!

113 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:37:26pm
114 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:37:31pm

re: #107 ThinkRight

Pool Boy ?

Like the one in The Bird Cage?

115 debutaunt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:37:53pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

A pre-Valentine chocolate theme would work for me.

116 jaunte  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:37:57pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

I plan to light up a fat Tiktaalik

117 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:38:06pm

re: #79 Ben Hur

Darwin?

A slave-owner?!?!?!?!?!?

No no no, the kid was just a ship's mate who was interested in going ashore and helping Darwin out. He wasn't a slave.

118 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:38:27pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

I'm dressing up my Iguana like Darwin. Little fuzz of cotton on his beard, and a party hat!

119 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:38:30pm

re: #117 zombie

No no no, the kid was just a ship's mate who was interested in going ashore and helping Darwin out. He wasn't a slave.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
/

120 debutaunt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:39:02pm

re: #118 notutopia

I'm dressing up my Iguana like Darwin. Little fuzz of cotton on his beard, and a party hat!

hahahahahahahhaaa

121 ThinkRight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:39:02pm

re: #108 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

He did get the majority of Catholic votes.


Will they all be refused communion like the dem senators ?

122 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:39:24pm

re: #113 Iron Fist

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and I'd never heard it until I studied with the Seventh Day Adventists. I don't know much about Anglicanism other than it being the "Official" religion of England.

Interesting. Thanks.

123 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:39:28pm

re: #63 Occasional Reader

Which must have made Mass pretty awkward.

"A reading from the Book of...." [looks quizzically around room... everyone shrugs]

LOL!
I just had great picture in my head of that!

We had a priest once who was incredibly long-winded, liked to speak very slowly, to make sure every word sank in. But of course, because the cadence was so unnatural, what happened was he lost people, people got bored and started fidgeting and quit paying attention.

I can remember dreading those words during his masses, "A Reading from the Book Of . . ."

He would always choose the longest possible version, and the readers were instructed to read veeerrryy slooooooooooowly during his masses.

A one-hour Mass would go on for an hour 45 minutes - we would be leaving as the next group was arriving for the next mass. Chaos.

Many of us were not real sorry to see him leave.

124 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:39:36pm

Most of what the church calls "the World" absolutely hated bush and couldn't be convinced by him that the sky is blue, yet many churches got their parishoners thinking that he's the big A.C. Why don't they just quit even pretending to read the Bible.

125 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:40:14pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

hey, Killgore my # 21 was a joke.

126 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:40:52pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

Go to the zoo & watch Galapagos tortoises get it on.

127 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:40:52pm

re: #114 unreconstructed rebel

Like the one in The Bird Cage?


"My father was the shaman of his tribe, and my mother was his high priestess!"

"So why the hell did they move to New Jersey?"

128 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:41:02pm

Want proof that Intelligent Design isn't? Here I am!

129 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:41:02pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Many evangelicals think he's the anti-Christ.

When people used to say things like "You're Catholic? You don't LOOK Catholic!" my father would lean his head forward and say, "Feel my horns!" He told me to say it too - it sort of broke the ice for him, but I was a kid, so I just got embarrassed and annoyed in silence.

Note - I'm from a small western town where many non-Catholics assumed all Catholics were either Mexican or Italian.

Sorry - we're Irish - clever of us to be so disguised, right? /sarc

130 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:41:23pm

re: #108 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

He did get the majority of Catholic votes.

UGH!

131 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:05pm

re: #130 notutopia

UGH!

Cafeteria Catholic vote.

132 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:13pm

re: #126 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Go to the zoo & watch Galapagos tortoises get it on.

Hmm, that should have been a link to a photo of hot steamy turtle sex.

133 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:16pm

re: #126 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Go to the zoo & watch Galapagos tortoises get it on.

They are VERY slow. You may be there for a week!

134 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:19pm
135 Kragar  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:23pm

re: #126 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Go to the zoo & watch Galapagos tortoises get it on.

Actually saw that at the San Diego Zoo. My daughters were laughing hysterically from the noises alone.

136 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:45pm

re: #125 2by2

hey, Killgore my # 21 was a joke.

I'll bet you remember your sarc tag from now on. :D

137 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:42:45pm

re: #117 zombie

No no no, the kid was just a ship's mate who was interested in going ashore and helping Darwin out. He wasn't a slave.

There's a terrible joke involving cabin boys that I probably shouldn't tell here....

138 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:04pm

re: #21 2by2

they're on to something I'd say

HELP! before I rake up another dozen of downdings
that post was a joke.

139 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:08pm

re: #100 Charles

You mean, Darwin had a cabin boy?

Trying to track down his name.

...Ah, here it is:

Syms Covington

Syms Covington (c. 1816-1861) was a fiddler and cabin boy on HMS Beagle who became an assistant to Charles Darwin and was appointed as his personal servant in 1833, continuing in Darwin's service after the voyage until 1839.
140 Kragar  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:32pm

re: #137 mikalm

There's a terrible joke involving cabin boys that I probably shouldn't tell here....

He went to the island a cabin boy, he returned a CABIN MAN!

141 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:34pm

re: #137 mikalm

There's a terrible joke involving cabin boys that I probably shouldn't tell here....

The cabin boy, the cabin boy
That dirtly little nipper
He lined his arse* with broken glass
And circumcised the Skipper

/* rhyme excluded

142 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:35pm

re: #131 Catttt

Cafeteria Catholic vote.

Their line of reasoning is that best way to bring about the Kingdom of God is to give all power to a secular state.

143 Wild Knight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:36pm

re: #97 zombie

Etc.

Many thanks.

144 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:36pm

re: #129 Catttt

With me, it was the other way around. I was raised Unitarian, but people still assume that I'm R.C.C. because of my Italian last name.

145 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:40pm

re: #137 mikalm

There's a terrible joke involving cabin boys that I probably shouldn't tell here....

why?...most of the jokes told here are terrible

146 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:43:52pm

re: #134 Iron Fist

I thought all Irish were Catholics. Irish Republican Army and all that...

We were rare where I came from. There were a lot of darker-skinned Catholics. I remember a girl being really affronted when she found out I'd fooled her by being too white. Seriously.

147 Kragar  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:44:01pm

re: #138 2by2

HELP! before I rake up another dozen of downdings
that post was a joke.

Nope, suffer. Consider it a right of passage.

148 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:44:19pm

re: #141 OldLineTexan

Similar scenario, different set-up and punch line.

149 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #138 2by2

HELP! before I rake up another dozen of downdings
that post was a joke.

Ah! Behold the power of one single keystroke: /

150 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:44:35pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He went to the island a cabin boy, he returned a CABIN MAN!

L_O_L_A Lola

151 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:44:45pm

re: #44 zombie

Uh -- sorry to break the news to the Vatican, but the ancient Greeks also grasped that evolution occurred, a thousand years before St. Augustine came along. But what nobody -- including the Greeks and St. Augustine -- could figure out is how it occurred. For that, we needed Alfred Russel Wallace, Charles Darwin, and Gregor Mendel -- all working in the 1850s and 1860s. Those three geniuses, combined, made the breakthrough and proved the case conclusively for natural selection - -or, as Darwin put it, "descent through modification."

And Mendel was an Augustinian priest as well as a great scientist.

No conflict.

152 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:44:46pm

re: #139 zombie

Syms Covington (c. 1816-1861) was a fiddler and cabin boy on HMS Beagle

His portrait can be found here.

153 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:45:02pm

re: #134 Iron Fist

Not the Protestant Irish in Belfast.

154 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:45:11pm

re: #136 Catttt

I'll bet you remember your sarc tag from now on. :D

Life's dangerous in the Lizard world, there goes my Karma with one infantile joke.....

155 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:45:32pm

Heh. From the Syms Covington link above:

"When he was around fifteen years old, Syms Covington became "fiddler & boy to Poop-cabin"

156 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:45:42pm

re: #152 Occasional Reader

His portrait can be found here.

He dances for nickles.

157 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:45:46pm

re: #139 zombie


Syms Covington (c. 1816-1861) was a fiddler and cabin boy on HMS Beagle who became an assistant to Charles Darwin and was appointed as his personal servant in 1833, continuing in Darwin's service after the voyage until 1839.


Did he also become a scientist?

158 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:45:59pm

re: #154 2by2

Gave you an upding to help you on your way back up. :D

159 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:46:00pm

re: #153 Kenneth

Not the Protestant Irish in Belfast.

Ah, but most of them call themselves "Ulstermen" or "Scots-Irish" rather than plain ol' "Irish."

160 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:46:17pm

re: #134 Iron Fist

I thought all Irish were Catholics. Irish Republican Army and all that...

Oh...dear.

The Prot militias are pretty scary.

161 JHW  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:46:25pm

re: #153 Kenneth

Not the Protestant Irish in Belfast.

Aren't they mostly lowland Scots ethnically?

162 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:46:29pm

re: #155 zombie

Heh. From the Syms Covington link above:

"When he was around fifteen years old, Syms Covington became "fiddler & boy to Poop-cabin"

In the Navy, you can join your fellow man...

163 Catttt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:46:33pm

re: #155 zombie

Heh. From the Syms Covington link above:

"When he was around fifteen years old, Syms Covington became "fiddler & boy to Poop-cabin"

Bet that looked great on his resume. /

164 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:47:01pm

re: #161 JHW

Aren't they mostly lowland Scots ethnically?

They're from the border.
/

165 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:47:05pm

re: #157 notutopia

Syms Covington (c. 1816-1861) was a fiddler and cabin boy on HMS Beagle who became an assistant to Charles Darwin and was appointed as his personal servant in 1833, continuing in Darwin's service after the voyage until 1839.

Did he also become a scientist?

No -- he became a postmaster in Australia.

166 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:47:27pm

re: #157 notutopia

Syms Covington (c. 1816-1861) was a fiddler and cabin boy on HMS Beagle who became an assistant to Charles Darwin and was appointed as his personal servant in 1833, continuing in Darwin's service after the voyage until 1839.

Did he also become a scientist?

He opened a chain of clothing stores for "educated consumers"

167 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:47:35pm

Quoting the Catholic Church or the Pope would not be considered a reliable source for the kind of people who stand behind the DI. For many of them, the Catholic Church itself is an apostate sect of Christianity.

168 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:47:39pm

the cabin boy's song....

Youtube Video
169 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:47:51pm

re: #125 2by2

Sarc tags are very important. That was a popular theory here on LGF not long ago.

170 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:48:06pm

Charles:

I'm please that you picked this up. I spotted it on Ignatius Press blog yesterday and I had hoped to have time to e-mail you a link.

This is the link I had in mind:
The narrowminded, reactionary, fundamentalist Vatican...

Here is a link for the Intelligent Project

I'm about halfway through The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism and I'd expect that your readers will find that the Church's views on this topic are not inconsistent with views expressed by Dr. Michael Behe, a Catholic biologist and advocate for certain forms of ID, either. Based upon my reading the Church objects to the teaching of Philosophical Materialistic Determinism in the guise of "Science". As has been the case since the Gregory Popes, the Vatican supports reason and science. First Things has devoted no small amount of space to this topic over the years.

171 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:48:22pm

re: #134 Iron Fist

I thought all Irish were Catholics.

If you feel you haven't been getting enough CQB practice lately, visit Belfast, plunk yourself down in a pub in the Shankill Road, and make that announcement.

172 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:48:32pm

re: #165 zombie

No -- he became a postmaster in Australia.

Well, that's next...uh...next best thing. Scientists gotta get the mail somehow.

173 Gearhead  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:48:35pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

Buy five kinds of the same gift and let the recipient choose which one he/she likes best?

174 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:49:03pm

re: #161 JHW

Aren't they mostly lowland Scots ethnically?

Yes, but they've been in Ireland since Cromwell, so I think it's fair to call them Irish.

175 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:49:19pm
176 JHW  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:49:24pm

re: #164 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

OK thanks, I know there's rather a complicated history there to say the least. I just found out what a gallowglass was a couple days ago.

177 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:49:29pm

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nope, suffer. Consider it a right of passage.

Hopefully it make me into one tough Lizard.

178 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:49:40pm

re: #165 zombie

No -- he became a postmaster in Australia.

Where did he find that many Aussies who could read?

KIDDING!

179 formercorpsman  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:49:41pm

re: #162 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Hey boy..

180 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:50:13pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Quoting the Catholic Church or the Pope would not be considered a reliable source for the kind of people who stand behind the DI. For many of them, the Catholic Church itself is an apostate sect of Christianity.

As a non-Catholic and non-DI'er, I do not consider the Pope to be God's Authority on Earth OR the AntiChrist.

Nor do I worry about "apostates", having been called one (or an equivalent) myself by numerous Catholics, Mormons, JWs, etc.

181 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:50:18pm

re: #158 Catttt

thanks

182 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:00pm

According to the Disco Institute.....
ZOGBY Poll 2009: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate (PDF)

I can't find the original Zogby report so I can't be sure if they are twisting the results.

183 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:11pm

re: #173 Gearhead

Buy five kinds of the same gift and let the recipient choose which one he/she likes best?

They're all slightly different!

184 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:13pm

re: #126 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Go to the zoo & watch Galapagos tortoises get it on.


Since you brought this up:

http://www.wwmt.com/articles/wild_1358922___article.html/park_flowers.html

185 2by2  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:18pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

Sarc tags are very important. That was a popular theory here on LGF not long ago.

Yep, I see the value in that theory.

186 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:19pm

re: #161 JHW

The Scots are Irish and visa-versa.

187 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:27pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

OR the AntiChrist

Hey! I am not!

188 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:51:38pm

re: #175 Iron Fist

That might be a little too amusing :-)

Just wait until about 8 in the evening before making the announcement.

All too many of the boyos will have been drinking since three.

189 JHW  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:52:34pm

re: #186 Kenneth

Thanks, Kenneth, I'm still learning about Ireland's complicated history.

190 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:53:13pm

re: #189 JHW

Thanks, Kenneth, I'm still learning about Ireland's complicated history.

"Complicated" doesn't begin to cover it.

191 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:53:14pm

re: #188 Dianna

Just wait until about 8 in the evening before making the announcement.

All too many of the boyos will have been drinking since three.

mountain time?....why yes it is!

192 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:53:19pm

The cabin boy joke:

In the age of square-rigged sailing ships, a young man is taking his first voyage. After about two weeks at sea, he goes to the Captain, and asks him if any women are aboard.

The Captain tells him, "No, young sir, there ain't a lady around for a thousand miles!" He then asks the Captain if there will be any in port. The Captain says, "Aye, but they're as scurvy a bunch of low whores as ye'd ever see. Ye can catch the clap just lookin' at one! Why d'ya aske?"

So the young man asks, "So Captain, what do all the men aboard do when the urge strikes them?" The Captain replies, "We go to the cabin boy. He takes care of our needs!" The young man is shocked, and walks away.

A week later, he goes back to the Captain and says, "Captain, I'm really desperate. If I...had relations with the cabin boy, how many people would have to know?"

The Captain says, "Well...six, I reckon."

"Six?" cries the young man. "How can that be?"

The Captain replies, "Well, there's me, since you told me. Of course the cabin boy would have to know...."

"...and we'll need four sailors to hold the cabin boy down!"

(Thank you, thank you. Don't forget to tip your waitress.)

193 toodamnice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:53:41pm

Why does the Pope hate Christians?

Is this the Darwin Blog?

194 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:53:52pm

re: #184 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Since you brought this up:

http://www.wwmt.com/articles/wild_1358922___articl e.html/park_flowers.html

It takes all kinds to make this mixed up crazy world.
; )

195 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:53:56pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Quoting the Catholic Church or the Pope would not be considered a reliable source for the kind of people who stand behind the DI. For many of them, the Catholic Church itself is an apostate sect of Christianity.

Interesting how a branch from the tree trunk could call the tree trunk the 'sect'. That doesn't make sense to me.

196 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:54:02pm

re: #182 Killgore Trout

According to the Disco Institute.....
ZOGBY Poll 2009: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate (PDF)

I can't find the original Zogby report so I can't be sure if they are twisting the results.

It's once of those paid-for surveys with ridiculously slanted questions designed to elicit a specific answer. Meaningless results.

The question probably was like,

"Do you support teaching only one side of a complicated issue or giving students all the information they need to come to their own conclusions?"

197 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:54:13pm

re: #182 Killgore Trout

According to the Disco Institute.....
ZOGBY Poll 2009: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate (PDF)

I can't find the original Zogby report so I can't be sure if they are twisting the results.

Once more for those who aren't listening:

Intelligent Design is NOT science.
Intelligent Design is theology.
Intelligent Design has no place in a science curriculum.

198 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:54:19pm

re: #188 Dianna

Just wait until about 8 in the evening before making the announcement.

All too many of the boyos will have been drinking since three.

Indeed.

Flaherty fell down a flight of stairs with a pint of whiskey, but spilled nary a drop!
How did he do it?
He kept his mouth closed!

And I can say that, because my surname is from Ireland via the Scots imported to run the farms. So there.

199 JHW  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:54:52pm

re: #190 Dianna

"Complicated" doesn't begin to cover it.

Yes, certainly makes US history seem very straight-forward in comparison.

200 Gearhead  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:55:20pm

Good article from Discover Magazine, August 2008:

How to Teach Science to the Pope

“The idea that the universe is worth studying just because it’s worth studying is a religious idea,” Consolmagno says. “If you think the universe is fundamentally good and that it’s an expression of a good God, then studying how the universe works is a way of becoming intimate with the Creator. It’s a kind of worship. And that’s been a big motivation for doing any kind of science.”

201 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:55:29pm

re: #182 Killgore Trout

According to the Disco Institute.....
ZOGBY Poll 2009: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate (PDF)

I can't find the original Zogby report so I can't be sure if they are twisting the results.

That poll is typical Discovery Institute misleading garbage. Here's the question they asked:

QUESTION: I am going to read you two statements about Biology teachers teaching Darwin’s theory of evolution. Please tell me which statement comes closest to your own point of view — Statement A or Statement B?

Statement A: Biology teachers should teach only Darwin’s theory of evolution and the scientific evidence that supports it.

Statement B: Biology teachers should teach Darwin’s theory of evolution, but also the scientific evidence against it.

Of course, there is no scientific evidence against the theory of evolution. But who wouldn't say yes, when the question is phrased like that?

Complete crap. Those people are shameless.

202 redstateredneck  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:55:31pm

re: #195 Oh no...Sand People!

Interesting how a branch from the tree trunk could call the tree trunk the 'sect'. That doesn't make sense to me.


It's amazing how little a lot of people know of church history.

203 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:56:32pm

re: #188 Dianna

Just wait until about 8 in the evening before making the announcement.

All too many of the boyos will have been drinking since three.

But don't worry, they always fight in accordance with the Marquis of Queensbury Rules.

Marquis of Queensbury Rules!

Marquis of Queensbury POW


-The Quiet Man

204 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:56:40pm

re: #196 zombie


It's once of those paid-for surveys with ridiculously slanted questions designed to elicit a specific answer. Meaningless results.

That would explain why it isn't on the Zogby website.

205 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:26pm

re: #190 Dianna

"Complicated" doesn't begin to cover it.

One of my favorite lines from Cheers:

Sam: "I know that Diane & I have had our problems..."
Cliff: "No, Sam, Ireland has had problems..."

206 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:36pm
207 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:37pm

re: #203 Occasional Reader

But don't worry, they always fight in accordance with the Marquis of Queensbury Rules.

Marquis of Queensbury Rules!

Marquis of Queensbury POW

-The Quiet Man

one of my 3 or 4 favorite movies....magnificent work

208 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:38pm

re: #202 redstateredneck

It's amazing how little a lot of people know of church history.

It's all in how you view Restorations and Reformations.

The same view fuels the Islamist belief that we're all apostate Muslims.

It really makes no difference in the end.

209 looking closely  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:44pm
Why does the Pope hate Christians?

The question is why are a fraction of nominal Christians so scared of science?

The Pope has it right. The problem occurs solely if you accept a purely literal interpretation of Genesis. If you can accept that some of the things written in the Bible are allegorical then there is no conflict.

And if you do believe in an absolutely literal interpretation of the Bible, then that leads to all sort of other problems, not just with evolution.

EG: Did God LITERALLY walk in the garden, mold man out of dirt, then blow into his nostrils?

210 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:47pm

re: #189 JHW

Thanks, Kenneth, I'm still learning about Ireland's complicated history.

Here's a helpful website were you can lots about important Irish culture.

211 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:50pm

RE: 174

Yes, but they've been in Ireland since Cromwell, so I think it's fair to call them Irish.

Scots derives from the Latin Scotus which means Irish. (please forgive my spelling in Latin) The Scots emigrated from Ireland to what is now Scotland in the 5th through 7th centuries or so. However, given the particular history of Northern Ireland and English imperialism/ethnic cleansing/genocide etc. some scholars consider the Protestant Scots/Irish as a separate ethnic nationality, Ulstermen.

212 Gearhead  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:57:56pm

re: #183 OldLineTexan

They're all slightly different!

People often say the same thing about me...

213 WriterMom  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:58:12pm

re: #155 zombie

The musical was "Fiddler on the Poop", wasn't it?

214 avanti  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:58:56pm

re: #197 Kenneth

Once more for those who aren't listening:

Intelligent Design is NOT science.
Intelligent Design is theology.
Intelligent Design has no place in a science curriculum.

I don't oppose questions about the science, based on science, who would ? Darwin's theory is tested and revised all the time by new science, but not by religious dogma..

215 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:58:59pm

You bet your scaly lizard bottoms that this is going to cause a revival of Pope=Antichrist old time Protestantism in certain quarters.

I speculate that this will cause further splits and deterioration in the Republican religious wing.

216 Nevergiveup  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:01pm

Is everyone behaving on this thread?

217 looking closely  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:04pm

re: #192 mikalm

The cabin boy joke:

In the age of square-rigged sailing ships, a young man is taking his first voyage. After about two weeks at sea, he goes to the Captain, and asks him if any women are aboard.

The Captain tells him, "No, young sir, there ain't a lady around for a thousand miles!" He then asks the Captain if there will be any in port. The Captain says, "Aye, but they're as scurvy a bunch of low whores as ye'd ever see. Ye can catch the clap just lookin' at one! Why d'ya aske?"

So the young man asks, "So Captain, what do all the men aboard do when the urge strikes them?" The Captain replies, "We go to the cabin boy. He takes care of our needs!" The young man is shocked, and walks away.

A week later, he goes back to the Captain and says, "Captain, I'm really desperate. If I...had relations with the cabin boy, how many people would have to know?"

The Captain says, "Well...six, I reckon."

"Six?" cries the young man. "How can that be?"

The Captain replies, "Well, there's me, since you told me. Of course the cabin boy would have to know...."

"...and we'll need four sailors to hold the cabin boy down!"

(Thank you, thank you. Don't forget to tip your waitress.)

Wasn't the punchline of this one. . .

"No you idiot, you were supposed to ask the cabin boy to get you a boat to land"!

218 WriterMom  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:06pm

re: #210 Kenneth

A Scottish guy just told me an Irish joke a few days ago.

What's the difference between an Irish wake and an Irish wedding?

219 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:11pm

Thanks Charles, he/she was making me sleepy.

220 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:23pm

re: #213 WriterMom

The musical was "Fiddler on the Poop", wasn't it?

Yes. The San Francisco premiere ended in a riot.

221 WriterMom  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:30pm

re: #216 Nevergiveup

Why-what do you have in mind?

222 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:46pm

re: #216 Nevergiveup

Is everyone behaving on this thread?

It seems like it so far. I tell you what, last night was a friggin' stupid fest.

223 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:56pm

re: #126 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Go to the zoo & watch Galapagos tortoises get it on.

No, no, no. That just won't do. You must spend the day watching vintage Lizard pr0n.

[not to worry, that's totally SFW]

224 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 1:59:57pm

re: #218 WriterMom

I give up...

225 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:00:10pm

re: #216 Nevergiveup

Is everyone behaving on this thread?

I'm just plain poped out and keeping my head down

226 WriterMom  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:00:31pm

re: #224 Kenneth

One less drunk.

227 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:00:32pm

Time to say good-night.

228 DeafDog  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:00:51pm

re: #218 WriterMom

A Scottish guy just told me an Irish joke a few days ago.

What's the difference between an Irish wake and an Irish wedding?


One less drunk?

229 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:00:52pm

re: #217 looking closely

LOL! That one makes sense too.

230 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:00:54pm

re: #216 Nevergiveup

Is everyone behaving on this thread?

[hides blowtorch behind back]

Yes.

231 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:01:07pm

re: #221 WriterMom

Why-what do you have in mind?

I have said it before:

YOU I like.

;)

232 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:01:11pm

re: #227 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Time to say good-night.

Nite!

233 Occasional Reader  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:01:39pm

re: #227 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Time to say good-night.

"Night"? Did Philadelphia switch to Paris time or something?

234 WriterMom  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:02:11pm

re: #228 DeafDog

Hey-do I trust you or didja see it already when I answered...

235 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:02:41pm

re: #211 Mike O'Malley

RE: 174

Scots derives from the Latin Scotus which means Irish. (please forgive my spelling in Latin) The Scots emigrated from Ireland to what is now Scotland in the 5th through 7th centuries or so. However, given the particular history of Northern Ireland and English imperialism/ethnic cleansing/genocide etc. some scholars consider the Protestant Scots/Irish as a separate ethnic nationality, Ulstermen.

I know.

Being of mostly Irish (all varieties) descent, I have a wry and rather sarcastic view of the whole thing.

236 mikalm  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:02:49pm

re: #228 DeafDog

One less drunk?

Q: How is an Irish wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Among the injured were...."

Q: How is an Italian wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Killed in the shootout were..."

/1/2 Italian and part-Celt, so I can tell that one.

237 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:02:54pm

re: #201 Charles

Of course, there is no scientific evidence against the theory of evolution. But who wouldn't say yes, when the question is phrased like that?

Complete crap. Those people are shameless.

Ahhh, try having these trogs in your class sometime... One benefit of teaching at university though is being able to put them in their place and remind them of the existence of the letter "F."

Usually I just engage them and point out all the reasons why ID is not science. I open by saying it should be brought up in science class, as an example of what not to do and as an example of how to be utterly stupid.

238 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:03:08pm

re: #226 WriterMom

LOL!

239 DeafDog  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:03:49pm

re: #234 WriterMom

Hey-do I trust you or didja see it already when I answered...

I type with one finger.....I ain't that quick

240 Nevergiveup  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:03:56pm

American officials, but the basic assessment is that regardless of who becomes the next prime minister, the shift to the right is clear, and there are no breakthroughs expected with the peace process. In fact, Iran, a Hamas sponsor, is considered to be a more promising track.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Anybody who thinks Iran is a "promising" track is a jack ass. And these are the people who are suppose to protect us?

241 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:04:22pm

re: #239 DeafDog

I type with one finger.....I ain't that quick

Yet you hold down the shift key ... Oh Good Lord!

242 DeafDog  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:04:54pm

re: #236 mikalm

Q: How is an Irish wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Among the injured were...."

Q: How is an Italian wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Killed in the shootout were..."

/1/2 Italian and part-Celt, so I can tell that one.


Q: How does an Irishman express foreplay?

A: Brace yourself, Bridget.

243 notutopia  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:05:16pm

BBL, Time to feed the critters.

244 x-wing  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:05:41pm

re: #218 WriterMom

A Scottish guy just told me an Irish joke a few days ago.

What's the difference between an Irish wake and an Irish wedding?

One less drunk?

245 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:06:00pm

re: #205 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

One of my favorite lines from Cheers:

Sam: "I know that Diane & I have had our problems..."
Cliff: "No, Sam, Ireland has had problems..."

Since you mentioned it, my favorite line from Frasier:

Martin Crane: "Sex is between you and the person you're doing it to!"

But I digress.

re: #105 Taqiyyotomist

MANY EVANGELICALS TAUGHT THAT BUSH WAS THE ANTICHRIST.

I know a few. Their churches fostered this notion. Their predominately liberal-democrat churches.

And very much out of the mainstream, no? I thought that theory was limited to a few nutburgers on the internet. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

246 Nevergiveup  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:06:41pm

Peres, Obama discuss 'successful' general elections

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

A simp and a wimp

247 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:07:04pm
Why does the Pope hate Christians?

A lot of the ID types think that the pope is the Antichrist, anyway. I can think of Jack Chick tracts, "death cookies", and all that.

248 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:07:16pm

Time to go join my señora for a drink.

249 opnion  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:07:33pm

re: #236 mikalm

Q: How is an Irish wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Among the injured were...."

Q: How is an Italian wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Killed in the shootout were..."

/1/2 Italian and part-Celt, so I can tell that one.

So the Irish thing has to do with drinking? A complete untrue steryotype. Wait , I spilled my cocktail, where was I?

250 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:07:45pm

re: #246 Nevergiveup

Peres, Obama discuss 'successful' general elections

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

A simp and a wimp

Both are both.

251 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:07:58pm

re: #236 mikalm

Q: How is an Irish wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Among the injured were...."

Q: How is an Italian wedding announced in the social pages?

A: "Killed in the shootout were..."

/1/2 Italian and part-Celt, so I can tell that one.

OK here's one I can tell...

At an Orthodox wedding, the mother of the bride is pregnant.
At a Conservative wedding, the rabbi is pregnant.
At a Reform wedding, the Bride is pregnant.

252 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:08:08pm

re: #193 toodamnice

Why does the Pope hate Christians?

Is this the Darwin Blog?

When last seen at LGF, 'toodamnice' was complaining about our refusal to fall for the nirth certifikit kookery:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

How'd that work out for you, by the way? Manage to get Obama thrown out of office for being a sekrit Moslem yet? No?

253 x-wing  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:08:34pm

re: #239 DeafDog

I type with one finger.....I ain't that quick


I read slow and type slow. Double whammy.

254 horse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:08:46pm

re: #42 Charles

Countdown until someone says: "Hey, you were just bashing the Pope for the Richard Williamson thing! Now you want to use him to support your opinion? Hypocrite! Atheist! Why do you hate Christians?"

Well I was thinking of taking a friendly snarky jab at you with something a little more subtle, like "The pope doesn't hate Christians, just the Jews, remember?" But it just didn't look funny on screen, and I couldn't come up with anything better, so I didn't post it.

255 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:09:16pm

re: #246 Nevergiveup

Peres, Obama discuss 'successful' general elections

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

A simp and a wimp

BO is a fucking moron...is he implying some Israeli elections are not successful?....did he offer an ACORN tip package for next time around?

256 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:09:32pm

A good post on the Disco Institute/Zogby poll
"Missing Links in Darwin Day Poll"

Apparently Zobgy has done this before.

257 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:09:36pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

As a non-Catholic and non-DI'er, I do not consider the Pope to be God's Authority on Earth OR the AntiChrist.

Nor do I worry about "apostates", having been called one (or an equivalent) myself by numerous Catholics, Mormons, JWs, etc.

I understand how you see it, but my point still stand. I know many non-catholic christians, who, if you were to tell them that the Catholic Church (aka The Pope) supported evolution, they would tell you that holds no authority for them.

A lot of the people we are dealing with at DI and the such, and the mainstream pew Christians who support creationism, don't turn to the Catholic Church for any advice.

258 Ben Hur  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:10:12pm

re: #255 albusteve

BO is a fucking moron...is he implying some Israeli elections are not successful?....did he offer an ACORN tip package for next time around?

He's confusing the Israelis and Iraqi elections.

259 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:10:28pm

The jaw dropping hypocrisy of the modern Western feminist...

Exhibit A: Barbara Hall, of the Ontario Human Rights Commission,

Steyn pointed out the "sham" of the OHRC, when it is shamefully silent about so-called "honour killings." Young women are murdered for not conforming to oppressive cultural restrictions on women. But a journalist with an opinion? Oh, my. Can't have that.

I asked Hall for her response. In a telephone interview, she made some astounding comments.

First, she said, the OHRC has two roles -- a judicial one and one that comments on issues such as the articles. So she was perfectly within her mandate.

"We said the complaint process doesn't apply here.

"We find this series of articles to promote stereotypes and that's harmful and we would like the media to think more about the impact on people of what they write," she said.

Well, sorry. The role of the media is to report, review, criticize, comment. If sometimes we hurt people's feelings, well, oops. This is still a semi-free society.

It was her response to Steyn's criticism of OHRC's silence on honour killings that shocked me.

"There are thousands of things that happen in the province of Ontario on a daily basis and we don't comment on all of them," she said.

But, I spluttered, women are being murdered.

"As I said, we are a small commission.

"There are many problematic things that happen in our community and we have to make choices because we can't respond to everything," Hall said.


Got that? Steyn's "hurtful" prose is very bad and worthy of persecution.
Honor killings? Not so much.

260 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:11:05pm

re: #182 Killgore Trout

According to the Disco Institute.....
ZOGBY Poll 2009: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate (PDF)

I can't find the original Zogby report so I can't be sure if they are twisting the results.

That's because a growing majority of Americans couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.

261 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:11:05pm

re: #246 Nevergiveup

Peres, Obama discuss 'successful' general elections

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

A simp and a wimp

Labor headed to opposition

Reading the following paragraph, I'm thinking, "Is Kadima dead?":

Senior party officials said on Wednesday that Labor could no longer hope to play a significant role in forming the next government, and that it had better focus on its own future rather than try to save Kadima.

262 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:11:24pm

re: #254 horse

Well I was thinking of taking a friendly snarky jab at you with something a little more subtle, like "The pope doesn't hate Christians, just the Jews, remember?" But it just didn't look funny on screen, and I couldn't come up with anything better, so I didn't post it.

you didnt post what you just posted?...what?

263 wiffersnapper  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:11:50pm

I love my Pope. 100% approval in my book!

264 jamie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:11:54pm

re: #42 Charles

Countdown until someone says: "Hey, you were just bashing the Pope for the Richard Williamson thing! Now you want to use him to support your opinion? Hypocrite! Atheist! Why do you hate Christians?"

Well now you killed my witty, "because he already has someone to hate the Jews" retort to "Why does the Pope hate Christians?"

I hate you.

/

265 ROPMA  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:12:17pm

EVOLUTION

266 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:12:41pm

re: #260 Cato the Elder

That's because a growing majority of Americans couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.

Hey, look at all the people that voted for Obama.

267 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:12:56pm

re: #257 Walter L. Newton

Just trying to stay out of the big bag, that's all.

268 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:13:25pm

re: #201 Charles

Intellectual honesty is not their thing.

269 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:13:35pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

I thought I'd just go with the flow- let the day naturally select my activities.

270 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:13:45pm
271 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:14:09pm

re: #267 OldLineTexan

Just trying to stay out of the big bag, that's all.

What? I didn't understand you first reply to me and I certainly don't understand your second.

272 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:14:13pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

He's confusing the Israelis and Iraqi elections.

guys mouth is gigantic....will he ever run out of feet to stuff in there?

273 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:14:18pm

re: #269 Sharmuta

Good plan.

274 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:14:27pm

Just got this e-mail from a friend, thought I would share:

This week we celebrate a special birthday!

Monica Lewinsky turned 36. Can you believe it? It seems like only
yesterday she was crawling around the White House on her hands and
knees, and putting everything in her mouth.

They grow up so fast, don't they?
275 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:14:36pm

RE: 195 oh no ...Sand People

Interesting how a branch from the tree trunk could call the tree trunk the 'sect'. That doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, indeed. However, "The Reformation" is misnamed. More descriptively the Reformation was a "Counter-Renaissance", a violent reaction to the uncertainties of early Modernity, the Renaissance in particular. And it was an irrational reaction that was heightened by the cultural and social damage caused by the Black Death.

276 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:14:54pm

re: #272 albusteve

guys mouth is gigantic....will he ever run out of feet to stuff in there?

He's got nothing to worry about, as long as the MSM is covering for him.

277 DeafDog  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:15:13pm

re: #246 Nevergiveup

Peres, Obama discuss 'successful' general elections

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

A simp and a wimp


Too bad "O" can't have the same conversation with the Pawlenty (the Governor of Minnesota)

278 Kenneth  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:15:23pm

re: #274 reine.de.tout

She'll have no trouble blowing out the candles

279 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:15:40pm

Darwin's cabin boy after shore leave:

Youtube Video
280 jorline  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:16:04pm

Good afternoon, Lizards.

Looks like a continuation of last nights thread and the sun hasn't set yet.

At this rate. stinky will take the home run derby this year.

281 Kronocide  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:16:09pm

I don't know what the fuss was about. 6,000 years, 6,000,000,000 years.

Somebody working for King James screwed up. Just a couple of zeros got lost in translation, see?

There, fixed it.

282 opnion  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:16:18pm

re: #274 reine.de.tout

Just got this e-mail from a friend, thought I would share:

Monica Lewinsky has deserted the Demorats. They left a bad taste in her mouth.

283 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:16:51pm

re: #270 taxfreekiller

So, when the ID freaks give in, what then?

What, and shut down their hilarious museums?

284 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:17:00pm

re: #282 opnion

Monica Lewinsky has deserted the Demorats. They left a bad taste in her mouth.

[GROAN]

285 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:17:28pm

re: #254 horse

Wait, is that like Huckabee's "I am not going to show this commercial I am about to show you"?

286 midwestgak  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:17:29pm

re: #274 reine.de.tout

Hi reine.

lol

I'm back in business, computer wise, and I didn't lose my addy.

Dare I say that today is my birthday? I'm in good company.///

287 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:17:44pm

re: #282 opnion

Monica Lewinsky has deserted the Demorats. They left a bad taste in her mouth.

That's as old as the hills on Grandma's chest, and twice as dusty.

288 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:17:57pm

re: #279 Charles

Darwin's cabin boy after shore leave:


[Video]

His poop-cabin has been thoroughly rootered and is now immaculate.

289 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:18:21pm
290 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:18:21pm

Btw: Thanks to Stinky for wrenching the fredo out of here.

291 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:18:42pm

re: #209 looking closely

The question is why are a fraction of nominal Christians so scared of science?

The Pope has it right. The problem occurs solely if you accept a purely literal interpretation of Genesis. If you can accept that some of the things written in the Bible are allegorical then there is no conflict.

And if you do believe in an absolutely literal interpretation of the Bible, then that leads to all sort of other problems, not just with evolution.

EG: Did God LITERALLY walk in the garden, mold man out of dirt, then blow into his nostrils?

I'd also like one of them to tell me which of the 4 Passions I should read literally, as there are discrepancies between them.

292 opnion  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:18:44pm

re: #287 Ward Cleaver

That's as old as the hills on Grandma's chest, and twice as dusty.

Ok, I need updated material.

293 jorline  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:18:47pm

re: #286 midwestgak

Hi reine.

lol

I'm back in business, computer wise, and I didn't lose my addy.

Dare I say that today is my birthday? I'm in good company.///

{gak}

Welcome home and Happy Birthday!

294 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:19:04pm

re: #254 horse

Pity you didn't stick with that resolution.

295 Nevergiveup  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:19:18pm

re: #274 reine.de.tout

Just got this e-mail from a friend, thought I would share:

Did she ever get married?

296 zombie  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:19:27pm

Holy Darwin, the heavens just opened up here in the SF Bay Area. It is pouring tortoises and finches!

297 DeafDog  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:19:31pm

re: #260 Cato the Elder

That's because a growing majority of Americans couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.

{chuckle}

298 JHW  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:19:55pm

re: #235 Dianna

Dianna, I know you're a book lover, you may find this interesting,it's fairly famous I guess. The author must have attended every execution in the city for decades. Draconian punishments......drawn and quartered for stealing cloth, heads on pikes, very small children sent to prison for stealing trifles. Pg. 70-110, years 1710-66, Cork, Ireland. Down-loadable PDF book, 1783 edition
The Cork Remembrancer

299 abaleh  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:20:32pm

re: #261 Ward Cleaver

I think Kadima is pretty much dead unless it can get into the ruling coalition.
Kadima was set up as Sharon's personal party so that he could pass the Gaza withdrawel in the Knesset. Other than Sharon and the withdrawel, it had no ideology, and it doesn't have one now. They simply took away the votes from Labor. Once they are no longer ruling, they lose all legitimacy, and they cannot be differentiated from Labor.
Also, a lot of them are under investigation/indictment.

300 midwestgak  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:20:44pm

re: #293 jorline

{gak}

Welcome home and Happy Birthday!

{jorline}

Just got back from the MacSpecialist store, had a bite to eat, and then came here. It's good to be home!

301 albusteve  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:20:45pm

re: #290 Thanos

Btw: Thanks to Stinky for wrenching the fredo out of here.

fredo didnt get it...just like the movie

302 jorline  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:21:13pm

re: #295 Nevergiveup

Did she ever get married?

No, men left a bad taste in her mouth. Her future was stained by a man at some point in her life.

303 x-wing  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:21:43pm

re: #295 Nevergiveup

Did she ever get married?

No, she just keeps blowing it off.

/I know *whack*

304 Nevergiveup  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:21:53pm

re: #302 jorline

No, men left a bad taste in her mouth. Her future was stained by a man at some point in her life.

Ohh, that's gonna leave a mark

305 jorline  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:22:06pm

re: #300 midwestgak

{jorline}

Just got back from the MacSpecialist store, had a bite to eat, and then came here. It's good to be home!

It's good to have you back.

306 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:22:16pm

re: #275 Mike O'Malley

RE: 195 oh no ...Sand People

Yes, indeed. However, "The Reformation" is misnamed. More descriptively the Reformation was a "Counter-Renaissance", a violent reaction to the uncertainties of early Modernity, the Renaissance in particular. And it was an irrational reaction that was heightened by the cultural and social damage caused by the Black Death.

Then it waited over 150 years to manifest.

307 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:22:33pm

re: #296 zombie

Holy Darwin, the heavens just opened up here in the SF Bay Area. It is pouring tortoises and finches!

Short-beaked ones, too!

308 opnion  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:22:51pm

re: #303 x-wing

No, she just keeps blowing it off.

/I know *whack*

Says that it sucks , huh?

309 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:22:54pm

re: #292 opnion

Ok, I need updated material.

That's an expression from a guy I went to high school with, 30+ years ago. Another one of his favorites: "Does a chicken have lips?"

310 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:24:12pm

re: #309 Ward Cleaver

That's an expression from a guy I went to high school with, 30+ years ago. Another one of his favorites: "Does a chicken have lips?"

Do large ursine creatures leave fecal deposits in old-growth forrests?

311 opnion  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:24:13pm

re: #309 Ward Cleaver

That's an expression from a guy I went to high school with, 30+ years ago. Another one of his favorites: "Does a chicken have lips?"

Only, Tyson chickens.

312 Nevergiveup  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:24:24pm

Rasmussen: 67% think they can do better than congress. 44% think random picks from phone book would do better
—Purple Avenger

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

313 Dianna  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:24:58pm

re: #298 JHW

Dianna, I know you're a book lover, you may find this interesting,it's fairly famous I guess. The author must have attended every execution in the city for decades. Draconian punishments......drawn and quartered for stealing cloth, heads on pikes, very small children sent to prison for stealing trifles. Pg. 70-110, years 1710-66, Cork, Ireland. Down-loadable PDF book, 1783 edition
The Cork Remembrancer

Thanks - I have read it.

314 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:26:08pm

RE: 289 Ploome hinei

"I think he (the pope) must renounce the organization and their views," said Malcolm Hoenlein, deputy chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

Hoenlein told Reuters Benedict must "make it clear that there can be no reconciliation until there is complete transformation in their views and a public renunciation not only of Holocaust denial but of their anti-Semitic expressions."

So when is Malcolm Hoenlein going to take up residence in ancient Papal Palace in Avignon?

315 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:26:27pm
316 avanti  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:27:26pm

Jindal picked to respond to Obama's speech to Congress:

"House Republican Leader John Boehner (OH) and Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (KY) announced today that Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal will give the Republican address following the President’s first address to Congress on February 24, 2009. The Governor will speak to the nation from Baton Rouge, LA.

In making the announcement, Leader Boehner noted the Governor’s leadership and innovation in public service:

“Gov. Jindal embodies what I have long said: the Republican Party must not be simply the party of ‘opposition,’ but the party of better solutions. His stewardship of the state of Louisiana, dedication to reforming government, and commitment to bringing forth new and innovative ideas make him a leader not just within the Republican Party, but in our nation as a whole.”

Sen. McConnell said the Governor personified reform and recovery, saying he was a strong choice to offer the Republican address:

“Gov. Jindal’s leadership during a time of recovery in Louisiana, his commitment to real government reform, and his protection of hardworking American families make him an excellent choice to offer Republican solutions for the challenges which lay ahead.”

317 horse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:28:12pm

re: #254 horse

LOL, some can't appreciate self-depreciating humor.

318 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:29:41pm

re: #286 midwestgak

Hi reine.

lol

I'm back in business, computer wise, and I didn't lose my addy.

Dare I say that today is my birthday? I'm in good company.///

Happy birthday gak!

319 FredWM  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:30:11pm

Darwin is no more anti-religious than Newton. They both set out how the universe works: one in physics and one in biology.

320 HelloDare  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:30:37pm

In celebration of Darwin, the Pope impersonates a soaring Pterosaur.

321 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:31:50pm
322 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:32:38pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

What? I didn't understand you first reply to me and I certainly don't understand your second.

Then just forget it. I'm not inclined to spell it out any further; it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

323 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:32:50pm

re: #286 midwestgak

Hi reine.

lol

I'm back in business, computer wise, and I didn't lose my addy.

Dare I say that today is my birthday? I'm in good company.///

Is today your birthday?
Really?
Happy Birthday!

Youtube Video
324 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:34:16pm

re: #323 reine.de.tout

Is today your birthday?
Really?
Happy Birthday!

Youtube Video

The important question is did you get a Kindle II?

/

325 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:34:18pm
326 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:34:58pm

re: #266 Ward Cleaver

Hey, look at all the people that voted for Obama.

Um ... I'm pretty sure Cato was one of them. At least he said he was back in October. So ...

327 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:36:04pm

re: #324 OldLineTexan

The important question is did you get a Kindle II?

/

YES!
I have ordered it.

328 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:36:14pm
329 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:37:11pm
330 OtherBrotherDarrell  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:38:08pm

Anyone know where I can get a T-shirt that says: "God created Darwin"?

331 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:38:36pm
332 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:38:43pm

306 Dianna

The Black Plague caused cultural and social reactions which darkened and almost terminated Western Civilization. It introduced and/or aggravated almost all of the "corruptions" that the Reformation sought to "reform". Oft times bizarre and oft times violent escatological "reform" movements started during the Plague years and extended through to centuries. Indeed the Black Death returned over and over again in Western Europe for generations to take young... Luther experienced one such devastating return of the Black Plague during his childhood.

333 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:39:12pm
334 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:41:55pm

re: #170 Mike O'Malley

Charles:

I'm please that you picked this up. I spotted it on Ignatius Press blog yesterday and I had hoped to have time to e-mail you a link.

This is the link I had in mind:
The narrowminded, reactionary, fundamentalist Vatican...

Here is a link for the Intelligent Project

I'm about halfway through The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism and I'd expect that your readers will find that the Church's views on this topic are not inconsistent with views expressed by Dr. Michael Behe, a Catholic biologist and advocate for certain forms of ID, either. Based upon my reading the Church objects to the teaching of Philosophical Materialistic Determinism in the guise of "Science". As has been the case since the Gregory Popes, the Vatican supports reason and science. First Things has devoted no small amount of space to this topic over the years.

Following that link a few steps, I got to this.

The church does not pretend to give scientific answers to biological questions. But it does point out that some Darwinist claims are mere materialist metaphysics pretending to be science, because it knows that were it to remain silent on a truth—the nature of man—that has been entrusted to it by God, that truth would soon disappear, only to be replaced by the ever-changing dogmas of a materialist science.

Even so, the Catholic Church has been surprisingly sparing in its pronouncements on the subject, given that Darwin’s theory has been used to underpin some fairly disastrous worldviews, such as Nazism and communism. The church has never been very comfortable with the theory, but, perhaps fearing bad press of the kind that arose from its condemnation of Galileo, has usually preferred to deal with theologians who were enthusiastic about evolution in more discreet ways than by magisterial interventions.

Really? Do you think this is the Pope's "real" position?" I'm just trying to figure out where you were going with this.

And which views of the Church do you find to be "not inconsistent with views expressed by Dr. Michael Behe?"

335 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:42:11pm

re: #327 reine.de.tout

YES!
I have ordered it.

I KNOW you did, cher. How about yer buddy?

/

BTW, j-e-a-l-o-u-s

336 mich-again  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:43:08pm

re: #332 Mike O'Malley

I have read accounts that blamed the Bubonic plague on the fact that people around that time killed off cats because they were told the cats were the devil. And then the rats ran amok.

337 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:43:27pm

Some people worry about evolution or not, but that does not bother me, I look at the even bigger picture & the very structure of it all contains such embedded miracles that the presence of an overarching intelligence is very obvious.

I especially like the hydrogen atom, who would think that the simplest element could do so much? One proton, one electron; no indication there, if you look at one of those atoms (& gravity is a property of hydrogen,) ... no indication that if you get enough of that fluffy hydrogen together, it will form a gas ball and start fusing to helium (is there any hint of helium in a hydrogen atom?) and kick out enough energy to run the biosphere. And further, that other elements, by combining, are possible, and you can get carbon? Starting with hydrogen?

WOW! You get the whole periodic table, which even contains humorous elements like Lutecium.

It is a total miracle at the most basic level.

And that's not even considering how electromagnetic waves connect the whole universe, or that for a light particle there is no time, and the universe is infinitely small and always brand new from the standpoint of a photon.

338 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:44:22pm

re: #332 Mike O'Malley

The Plague also kicked the legs out from under Feudalism by making serfs scarce and therefore valuable. So I see that as a BIRTH of Western individual rights and a step on the way to representative government.

339 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:44:43pm

re: #335 OldLineTexan

I KNOW you did, cher. How about yer buddy?

/

BTW, j-e-a-l-o-u-s

ah.
dunno.

340 debutaunt  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:45:08pm

re: #189 JHW

Thanks, Kenneth, I'm still learning about Ireland's complicated history.

Don't ever tell a joke about how Ireland has a long coastline and yet starved from a potato famine.

341 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:45:10pm

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

St Thomas Aquinas Quotes:

Beware of the person of one book.

Clearly the person who accepts the Church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the Church teaches.

Most men seem to live according to sense rather than reason.

The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.

Some other quotes include:

If forgers and malefactors are put to death by the secular power, there is much more reason for excommunicating and even putting to death one convicted of heresy.
...
As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power.
...
Man should not consider his material possession his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need.
...
That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.
...
There is but one Church in which men find salvation, just as outside the ark of Noah it was not possible for anyone to be saved.

342 jorline  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:45:53pm

re: #321 ploome hineni

Hi, ploome.

I agree with you about Clinton...he is garbage.

But stupidity isn't always welcomed with compassion.

sucks big time


Your line, not mine.

My daughter has a better moral compass at 12 then Monica did at 24.

343 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:46:16pm

re: #334 Lynn B.

Thanks for digging through the links and pointing that out.

344 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:47:33pm

re: #170 Mike O'Malley

Charles:

I'm please that you picked this up. I spotted it on Ignatius Press blog yesterday and I had hoped to have time to e-mail you a link.

This is the link I had in mind:
The narrowminded, reactionary, fundamentalist Vatican...

Here is a link for the Intelligent Project

I'm about halfway through The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism and I'd expect that your readers will find that the Church's views on this topic are not inconsistent with views expressed by Dr. Michael Behe, a Catholic biologist and advocate for certain forms of ID, either. Based upon my reading the Church objects to the teaching of Philosophical Materialistic Determinism in the guise of "Science". As has been the case since the Gregory Popes, the Vatican supports reason and science. First Things has devoted no small amount of space to this topic over the years.

Philosophical Materialistic Determinism? Huh? Science explicitly accepts that the natural world is not in any scientific sense deterministic. If fate ordains what shall happen, it doesn't do so in ways that can be calculated in advance. As far as we can tell, it's the domain of chance and free will in part, with overarching physical laws that keep chaos at bay and make sunrise and sunset predictable.

How this scientific picture of the natural world clashes with the theological perspective that makes the world a physical realm, with physical laws established by a God who exemplifies and embodies Reason, and yet also a realm in which free will plays its part, beats me.

Dr. Behe's speculations and proclamations about irreducible complexity are bad science. The Catholic view on science is that science should at least be true to its own values and methods and get as far as it can get in understanding how (you-know-Who's) laws fit together and help explain what we see happening in the natural world. Behe repeatedly asserts irreducible complexity when he finds a biological phenomenon that looks, at first sight, as though it's irreducibly complex. Whatever that is supposed to mean. His work in this area has been roundly refuted.

The evidence that life on earth has developed over billions of years, with new species evolving from older ones, fish to amphibian to reptile to mammals, dinosaurs and their one surviving lineage (birds), and on and on, is overwhelming. This isn't "Darwinism". It isn't a cult belief. At turn after turn, the discovery of a single fossil in the right [wrong] stratum, or of a huge genetic discrepancy between species that by the other evidence ought to have been closely related, would have blown the theory of evolution right out of the water. Instead, the confirmations just keep rolling in.

Behe is the perfect case in point of the dangers of insisting, on faith-based grounds, upon propositions in natural philosophy that are not borne out by the evidence. As Aquinas warned, it just makes faith itself look stubborn, blind, dogmatic, and wrong-headed. (Not to the faithful, who experience faith from the inside and know that that's not the frame of mind they're in. But to outsiders. )

345 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:48:46pm

re: #317 horse

LOL, some can't appreciate self-depreciating humor.

LOL, some don't know the difference between "depreciating" and "deprecating".

346 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:50:02pm

328 Ploomi Hineni

you think Malcolm Hoenlein is challanging the authority of the Pope?

I think that the Malcom Hoenlein is demonstrating considerable Chutzpah and presumption. Perhaps His Holiness Lord Hoenlein, Protector of the Faith, would wish to next order terms of reconciliation between Catholics and Lutheran and between the Sees of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Constantinople!

347 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:50:08pm

re: #319 FredWM

Darwin is no more anti-religious than Newton. They both set out how the universe works: one in physics and one in biology.

And Newton was highly religious, if not downright kooky in some of his non-scientific views.

Not a conflict. Just keep 'em separate.

348 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:54:07pm

re: #170 Mike O'Malley

Michael Behe's ridiculous unscientific "irreducible complexity" argument and his activities supporting creationism are such an embarrassment that his own university has distanced itself from him: Lehigh University Department of Biological Sciences.

The department faculty, then, are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of "intelligent design." While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.

349 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:58:32pm
350 jcw46  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 2:59:46pm

Here's some interesting links about how some answer the POPE=ANTICHRIST "question":
What the Pitchfork and Torch type folks have to say.
A bit of rationality to balance the previous.
POPE FEARS BUSH IS THE ANTICHRIST!
POPE PAUL NAMED as ANTICHRIST!

Disclaimer: The previous links are NOT intended to express the commenter's personal beliefs nor are they intended to slyly point a finger at anyone. I just wanted to show that calling anyone the ANTICHRIST is sorta like labeling BUSH = HITLER and other such inanities.

351 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:01:40pm

RE 334 Lynn B

Really? Do you think this is the Pope's "real" position?" I'm just trying to figure out where you were going with this.

And which views of the Church do you find to be "not inconsistent with views expressed by Dr. Michael Behe?"

Time is short. Try the links I provided. Check "First Things" and try reading Dr. Behe's latest book. The Church seems to favor "Theistic Evolution". This is a general opinion that classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. This also appears to be Dr. Behe's personal view.

352 nikis-knight  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:03:08pm

I would credit a higher power for the complexities of life as well, and I'm sure the Pope would agree. I don't think that's the point of dispute between him and ID.

Accepting evolution doesn't mean believing God did nothing, anymore than believing in God means you think you know all the answers from that.

353 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:03:36pm

re: #299 abaleh

I think Kadima is pretty much dead unless it can get into the ruling coalition.
Kadima was set up as Sharon's personal party so that he could pass the Gaza withdrawel in the Knesset. Other than Sharon and the withdrawel, it had no ideology, and it doesn't have one now. They simply took away the votes from Labor. Once they are no longer ruling, they lose all legitimacy, and they cannot be differentiated from Labor.
Also, a lot of them are under investigation/indictment.

No, Sharon didn't start Kadima until November 2005, a few months after the disengagement was ... perpetrated. And Kadima probably took at least as many votes away from Likud (in the form of devoted followers of Sharon) as it took from Labor.

The pundits all said the party would never survive Sharon's stroke. Yet, defying all logic and sense, it did, with the (self-deleted) Olmert at its "head." So, unfortunately, I wouldn't be so quick to write it off. The dream of a true "centrist" party dies hard in Israel, even when the dream bears no resemblance to reality.

354 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:08:59pm

re: #351 Mike O'Malley

Behe has no credibility.

355 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:09:08pm

re: #347 Cato the Elder

And Newton was highly religious, if not downright kooky in some of his non-scientific views..

Ahhh! I think I'm getting the hang of posting here again!

Newton became a dangerous and deadly anti-Catholic. He also was anti-rationalist.

I believe that Michael White's: " Isaac Newton: The Last Sorcerer" does this particular topic justice.

356 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:13:17pm
357 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:15:58pm

re: #350 jcw46

Those links are another proof of my thesis that crappy web design is often an index of loony reasoning.

358 Beller0ph1  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:16:25pm

re: #33 ThinkRight

There is no way in heck that the O will EVER be a saint. Canonization rules are much more stringent, and the big Zero fails to meet any of them.

359 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:18:01pm

re: #351 Mike O'Malley

RE 334 Lynn B

Time is short. Try the links I provided.

Check "First Things" and try reading Dr. Behe's latest book.

No. Thanks. Time is indeed short and I'm all too familiar with Behe's so-called theories. In any event, the ID websites offer generous excerpts for free which have been more than enough to convince me not to waste my time. (Also, please see Charles #248 above.)

The Church seems to favor "Theistic Evolution". This is a general opinion that classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. This also appears to be Dr. Behe's personal view.

I certainly would agree that the Church seems to favor "Theistic Evolution." You don't seem to hang around here much but regular LGF readers are, again, very familiar with that term. Whether that is really Behe's personal view is unclear. I do know that he says it is. I'm just not sure I believe him. Beyond that ... I see very little that the Church and Behe have in common.

360 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:19:18pm

re: #359 Lynn B.

Correction:

... Beyond that I see very little the Church's views of evolution and Behe's pseudo-scientific theories have in common.

361 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:21:22pm

re: #359 Lynn B.

Another correction: (Also, please see Charles #348 above.)

/PIMF ...

362 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:21:38pm

re: #359 Lynn B.

No. Thanks. Time is indeed short and I'm all too familiar with Behe's so-called theories. In any event, the ID websites offer generous excerpts for free which have been more than enough to convince me not to waste my time. (Also, please see Charles #248 above.)

He saw it. He's just ignoring it.

363 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:24:28pm

re: #348 Charles

Michael Behe's ridiculous unscientific "irreducible complexity" argument and his activities supporting creationism are such an embarrassment that his own university has distanced itself from him: Lehigh University Department of Biological Sciences.

Charles, Have you seen Robert Park's Voodoo Science? It is a great book that goes into the many ways that psuedo scientists manipulate themselves and a foolish media. Park, at my Dept was also chair of the APS.

364 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:28:37pm
365 Omega3  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:29:14pm

I don't understand the argument. Is there anyone here who can sum it up all cliff-notey for me?

366 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:29:19pm

re: #343 Sharmuta

Thanks for digging through the links and pointing that out.

You're most welcome.

367 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:30:45pm

re: #358 Beller0ph1

There is no way in heck that the O will EVER be a saint...

Where the hell is "heck"?

368 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:32:17pm

re: #365 Omega3

No. Take the time and study the issue for yourself.

369 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:35:20pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

No. Take the time and study the issue for yourself.

You could start by watching the Nova video posted last night.

370 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:35:41pm

re: #365 Omega3

The theory of evolution is sound science, and the theory of intelligent design is a fraud.

Cliff notey enough?

371 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:36:51pm

re: #349 ploome hineni

you must be the only one who cares

as I said...only fitting these nazis be welcomed back into the fold that made them

Are we approach ad hominem attack? One would hope not.

While I do care about reconciliation between the various branches of Christianity and Judaism, it seems fair to point out the Macolm Hoenlein's presumption and arrogance are unhelpful.

As for your offensive insinuation I recommend that you spend some time reading primary historical documents on this topic (as I have done).

A great place to start is archive maintained online at Rutgers Law School in the Rutgers Journal of Law and Relgion.. These are evidentiary documents prepared by the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) Research and Analysis Branch for the Nazi war crimes trials at Nurneberg.

Installment No. 1 - Posted: Winter 2001

July 6, 1945 - "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches"

Part I (11,890KB)
Part II (10,431KB)
Part III (8,017KB)
Part IV (10,392KB)

Claire Hulme and Dr. Michael Salter, THE NAZI'S PERSECUTION OF RELIGION AS A WAR CRIME: THE OSS'S RESPONSE WITHIN THE NUREMBERG TRIALS PROCESS


You can thank me after you have spend sufficient reading these most valuable historical documents. ;-)

372 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:38:52pm

re: #170 Mike O'Malley

Charles:

I'm please that you picked this up. I spotted it on Ignatius Press blog yesterday and I had hoped to have time to e-mail you a link.

This is the link I had in mind:
The narrowminded, reactionary, fundamentalist Vatican...

Here is a link for the Intelligent Project

I'm about halfway through The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism and I'd expect that your readers will find that the Church's views on this topic are not inconsistent with views expressed by Dr. Michael Behe, a Catholic biologist and advocate for certain forms of ID, either. Based upon my reading the Church objects to the teaching of Philosophical Materialistic Determinism in the guise of "Science". As has been the case since the Gregory Popes, the Vatican supports reason and science. First Things has devoted no small amount of space to this topic over the years.

Creationists trying to piggyback on Roman Catholicism reminds me of euroneonazis trying to piggyback on antijihadism. They try to gain credibility from publicly associating with the host they are parasitizing, but end up costing that host credibility because some people assume the host agrees with their bizarre views.

373 jcw46  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:39:45pm

re: #357 Cato the Elder

Those links are another proof of my thesis that crappy web design is often an index of loony reasoning.

Zealots can be VERRRY, VERRRY focused. It's what they do.

374 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:40:24pm

re: #359 Lynn B.

...You don't seem to hang around here much but regular LGF readers are,

I've read LGF on a daily basis for years... ;-)

I just don't find time to post very often.

Thanks for the exchange. I hope I've been helpful ... a bit at least ...

375 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:41:51pm

re: #369 Sharmuta

You could start by watching the Nova video posted last night.

A great recommendation. You should definitely do that, Omega3. It is quite interesting, and not at all hard to follow.

376 jcw46  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:42:28pm

re: #365 Omega3

I don't understand the argument. Is there anyone here who can sum it up all cliff-notey for me?

Theory of the origin of species is Science. Intelligent Design is Faith.

377 the_flying_pig  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:42:58pm

Christian American International Relations will hear of this, Charles!

CHAIR will smack you with... uh... a strongly-worded letter!

378 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:47:01pm

re: #375 Slumbering Behemoth

A great recommendation. You should definitely do that, Omega3. It is quite interesting, and not at all hard to follow.

I think it's actually quite a good piece of non-fictitious drama.

379 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:48:57pm

re: #373 jcw46

Zealots can be VERRRY, VERRRY focused. It's what they do.

Oh, aye. To the exclusion of good grammar, logic, design, and, frequently enough, personal hygiene.

It's the smooth, well-spoken, seemingly rational, funding-savvy, Armani-wearing ones we have to watch out for!

380 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 3:56:26pm

re: #321 ploome hineni

is sitting on top of more than 150,000,000 in writing and speaking and consulting income....being honored all over the world

sucks big time

have some compassion and pity for that poor stupid wretch Monica

and stop with the humiliating jokes

Monica was no victim. When she found out that she'd been selected to be a White House page, she told her friends that she was planning to earn her 'presidential kneepads." And so she did.

381 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:02:19pm

re: #337 Ojoe

Some people worry about evolution or not, but that does not bother me, I look at the even bigger picture & the very structure of it all contains such embedded miracles that the presence of an overarching intelligence is very obvious.

I especially like the hydrogen atom, who would think that the simplest element could do so much? One proton, one electron; no indication there, if you look at one of those atoms (& gravity is a property of hydrogen,) ... no indication that if you get enough of that fluffy hydrogen together, it will form a gas ball and start fusing to helium (is there any hint of helium in a hydrogen atom?) and kick out enough energy to run the biosphere. And further, that other elements, by combining, are possible, and you can get carbon? Starting with hydrogen?

WOW! You get the whole periodic table, which even contains humorous elements like Lutecium.

It is a total miracle at the most basic level.

And that's not even considering how electromagnetic waves connect the whole universe, or that for a light particle there is no time, and the universe is infinitely small and always brand new from the standpoint of a photon.

An overarching intelligence that possessed the power and intelligence to create the Universe would of necessity have to be more complex than the Universe itself, and hence require even more explanation. Occam's Razor takes logical umbrage at the gratuitous invocation of such irreduceable complexity.

382 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:10:04pm

re: #351 Mike O'Malley

RE 334 Lynn B


Time is short. Try the links I provided. Check "First Things" and try reading Dr. Behe's latest book. The Church seems to favor "Theistic Evolution". This is a general opinion that classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. This also appears to be Dr. Behe's personal view.

Considering that Behe's and Dembski's bizarre and nonsensical views of evolution and empirical science have been completely and utterly discredited, refuted and debunked, why should I give an anorexic rat's ass what their theological stances are?

383 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:13:28pm

re: #374 Mike O'Malley

I've read LGF on a daily basis for years... ;-)

I just don't find time to post very often.

Thanks for the exchange. I hope I've been helpful ... a bit at least ...

And yet you feel obliged to lecture us on the background and hypotheses of Michael Behe and the meaning of "theistic evolution," which have been explained, dissected, discussed and respectively, debunked and advocated here many dozens of time over. Ok, well maybe you just haven't visited the ID threads up to now.

Thanks back atcha. And hope we've been helpful to you, as well.

384 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:16:08pm
385 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:17:45pm
386 DeathtotheSwiss  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:21:01pm

Ah, gotta love it when people start bickering over who the "real" Christians are.

"No no no, you see, Mary was just a woman. It's obvious you're not as dedicated to this whole Christianity thing like me!"

Oh you humble, chosen few...ye annointed ones...el elect...

387 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:25:58pm

re: #380 Salamantis

Monica was no victim. When she found out that she'd been selected to be a White House page, she told her friends that she was planning to earn her 'presidential kneepads." And so she did.

Monica was a stupid slut. And Bill was and is an immoral, exploiting, power-hungry and arrogant POSUS.

388 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:28:09pm

re: #382 Salamantis

Considering that Behe's and Dembski's bizarre and nonsensical views of evolution and empirical science have been completely and utterly discredited, refuted and debunked, why should I give an anorexic rat's ass what their theological stances are?

re: #381 Salamantis

An overarching intelligence that possessed the power and intelligence to create the Universe would of necessity have to be more complex than the Universe itself, and hence require even more explanation. Occam's Razor takes logical umbrage at the gratuitous invocation of such irreduceable complexity.

... err ... ok ... I guess we could just accept that Ockham's razor stuff ... but I'm not sure ... It seems we are dealing with hyper-complexity and I'm not sure whether or not Ockham's razor is reliable when one is dealing with very complex systems. Can you clarify and explain what you wrote about "logical umbrage" and "gratuitous invocation" in regard to "irreduceable complexity"?

389 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:29:30pm

re: #388 Mike O'Malley

Irreducible Complexity Demystified

390 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:33:19pm

re: #381 Salamantis

Where did I say or imply that God was complex? God is simple, no parts in the Creator, you can read that in Aquinas' Summa.

Occam's razor applies to theories about things & God is outside of all that.

391 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:34:13pm

Evolution in (Brownian) space: a model for the origin of the bacterial flagellum

By "cdesign proponentists" discoverer Nick Matzke

393 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:37:50pm

re: #388 Mike O'Malley

... err ... ok ... I guess we could just accept that Ockham's razor stuff ... but I'm not sure ... It seems we are dealing with hyper-complexity and I'm not sure whether or not Ockham's razor is reliable when one is dealing with very complex systems. Can you clarify and explain what you wrote about "logical umbrage" and "gratuitous invocation" in regard to "irreduceable complexity"?

Occam's Razor states that explanatory entities should not be multiplied beyond what is necessary to explain observed phenomena. Behe's 'examples' of irreduceable complexity in the biosphere turned out to be all-too-reduceable, as Ken Miller conclusively demonstrates.

Attempting to explain the universe by recourse to a powerful, intellgent and purposive designer simply mires the attempter in the necessity of explaining something that of necessity would be even more complex than the Universe is, and which would therefore require even more of an explanation than the Universe would. And why should the Universe require explanation, and its purported creator should not? This stance is merely an unwarranted invocation of cosmic mystery.

394 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:39:54pm

re: #393 Salamantis

And why should the Universe require explanation, and its purported creator should not? This stance is merely an unwarranted invocation of cosmic mystery.

Let the people have their mysteries. Let them not impose them on others.

395 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:41:03pm

re: #390 Ojoe

Where did I say or imply that God was complex? God is simple, no parts in the Creator, you can read that in Aquinas' Summa.

Occam's razor applies to theories about things & God is outside of all that.

Read my #393. I do not accept Aquinas' pronouncements as gospel (see #341). There are no valid ontological grounds for excluding a postulated cosmic creator from Occam's Razor.

396 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:46:40pm

re: #392 Sharmuta

Evolving Immunity A Response to Chapter 6 of Darwin's Black Box

"In each case, Behe claims that a lack of articles in the scientific literature provides evidence that these systems could not have evolved. However, there are hundreds to thousands of articles published on these systems. Much was known about the evolution of each of these systems at the time Darwin's Black Box was published."

The man has no credibility. Are you sure, Mike, that you want to continue hinging your arguments based on his supposed reputation?

397 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:52:39pm

re: #389 Sharmuta

Irreducible Complexity Demystified

No, can you explain and clarify what you wrote? You wrote, "Occam's Razor takes logical umbrage at the gratuitous invocation of such irreduceable complexity". I want to understand what you wrote.

BTW: the link you provided is stale. Dunkelberg's post dates from 2003. I'd like to complete reading Behe's most recent book first so I understand how Dr. Behe has reflected upon and advanced his argument before I weigh current critique.

Anyway can you explain your reasoning above for me?

398 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:53:48pm

re: #397 Mike O'Malley

You have confused me with someone else. Please read more thoroughly.

399 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 4:55:22pm

The age of the debunking of Behe's claims should not be a factor in their veracity. What a load of garbage!

400 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:01:45pm

re: #371 Mike O'Malley

... You can thank me after you have spend sufficient reading these most valuable historical documents. ;-)

And now you're trying to lecture Ploome on the Holocaust? LOL!

/are you sure it's LGF you've been reading on a daily basis? you couldn't be confusing this with some other site?

401 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:02:18pm
402 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:04:53pm

re: #395 Salamantis

"God created the universe" is about as simple an explanation that there could be.

LOL

403 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:06:12pm

re: #397 Mike O'Malley

BTW: the link you provided is stale. Dunkelberg's post dates from 2003. I'd like to complete reading Behe's most recent book first so I understand how Dr. Behe has reflected upon and advanced his argument before I weigh current critique.

BTW: Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds? Using this logic, creationists have no leg to stand on because of the age of the Bible.

404 toodamnice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:07:05pm

re: #252 Charles

When last seen at LGF, 'toodamnice' was complaining about our refusal to fall for the nirth certifikit kookery:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

How'd that work out for you, by the way? Manage to get Obama thrown out of office for being a sekrit Moslem yet? No?

I am seriously honored that you personally responded to my post. Did I touch a nerve? I noticed that you didn't answer the question. I have been a long time lurker and was finally able to join and I am glad that I did. I like this blog, but it just seems to me lately you have started to attack Creationists/Christians more and more and our real enemy radical Islam less and less.

So I didn't research the birth certificate thing as thoroughly as I should have. That hardly makes me a kook. Have you noticed how many times Barry has kissed islamic ass since he took office? Right a post about that... and lay off Christians, we aren't your enemy.

405 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:08:43pm

re: #404 toodamnice

And evolution isn't the enemy of Christians or any other faith either.

406 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:10:20pm
407 gclaghorn  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:12:19pm

re: #404 toodamnice

So I didn't research the birth certificate thing as thoroughly as I should have. That hardly makes me a kook. Have you noticed how many times Barry has kissed islamic ass since he took office? Right a post about that... and lay off Christians, we aren't your enemy.

You evidently haven't researched evolution and ID as thoroughly as you should have, either.

408 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:16:53pm

Sharm, if you're still here ...

I finally got a response from the PA GOP. They sent me to the web page for the national GOP platform. : (

Trying again ...

409 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:18:48pm

re: #408 Lynn B.

Thanks! Wonder why they're so reluctant.

410 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:20:30pm

re: #404 toodamnice

[...]but it just seems to me lately you have started to attack Creationists/Christians more and more and our real enemy radical Islam less and less.

This type of either/or thinking is what gets you (and many others) into logical no-man's land.... Life is often not an either/or situation, especially the life of a blog with many different interests.

**Furthermore, believing that attacking ID activists is somehow an attack on Christianity shows that you are being duped by the wedge strategy.**


Have you noticed how many times Barry has kissed islamic ass since he took office? Right [sic] a post about that... and lay off Christians, we aren't your enemy.

Obama was a known "internationalist" from the beginning, having written about the importance of international institutions before.

As for you believing that LGF has now decided that Christians are the enemy.... please consider seriously my comment enclosed in the "**" above.

411 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:21:39pm

re: #409 Sharmuta

Thanks! Wonder why they're so reluctant.

Beats me. Maybe there isn't one? In your research, have you found state parties that simply defer to the national platform and don't articulate their own? Seems unlikely.

If this doesn't work, I'll try the old fashioned way (the phone). Easier to get a link by email though.

412 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:22:13pm

Hmmm... somehow the "blockquote" tag got screwed up in my previous post... but those paying close attention should be able to discern the comments of toodamnice from my own.

413 theheat  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:22:48pm

re: #404 toodamnice

Rule number one: It's impolite to shit on your host's porch.

And, you're delusional if you think that cramming [Christian] creationism and religion [in general] down people's throats is any less of a threat than radical Islam. Its very nature opens the door wide open for every kooky religious idea to dominate every aspect of everyone's lives. BTW, that includes Islam, or has that not occurred to you?

Religion is a personal thing. Go at it with all your heart, no one is telling you that you can't. But don't expect your beliefs to be accepted as science, or to replace science. If that offends you, it's pretty obvious you want everyone to think exactly as you do.

No thanks.

414 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:23:01pm

re: #393 Salamantis

Opps, I missed your response. It seems to be a strawman argument. For now we can leave it to physicists and theologians to explain the complexity of the whole universe. Behe is more modest. He doesn't think that random mutation paired with natural selection is the correct explanation for the diversity of life. In this light your response doesn't satisfy and your original statement doesn't make much sense ... to me at least. Perhaps we should let that go for now as you seem to be getting agitated.

.

The age of the debunking of Behe's claims should not be a factor in their veracity. What a load of garbage!

I read Darwin's Black Box years ago and followed the debate for a while and Dr. Behe seemed to do far better than some would allow. Of course I've got better things to do than to follow every response and counter response in this debate among others so it makes sense for me to check in with Dr. Behe's current thinking.

BTW: Did Dr. Behe respond to Pete Dunkelberg's critique? Is he even aware of it? If Dr. Behe did respond to Dunkelberg did you read and weigh Dr. Behe's response?

415 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:25:55pm

re: #411 Lynn B.

In your research, have you found state parties that simply defer to the national platform and don't articulate their own? Seems unlikely.

Yes, actually. Quite a few of them had nothing more than a link to the national platform on their sites, or a link to the national platform with another link to some essay called "Why I am a republican". I was really stunned to discover so many state gops not disclosing their own platform.

416 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:26:02pm

re: #409 Sharmuta

Well, dang, that was fast. Just got this answer back:

Our state party does not create and adopt our own unique platform, but adopt that of the National Party.

417 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:26:52pm

re: #415 Sharmuta

Yes, actually. Quite a few of them had nothing more than a link to the national platform on their sites, or a link to the national platform with another link to some essay called "Why I am a republican". I was really stunned to discover so many state gops not disclosing their own platform.

Apparently PA is one of them.

418 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:28:16pm

Astounding. Even in a thread that's explicitly about the ridiculous and false charge that I'm "bashing Christians," here comes someone ranting that I "attack Christians."

It's like talking to a wall.

419 tgibson1962  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:28:30pm

re: #413 theheat

Yeah, that's why Christians fly planes into buildings. BTW, I don't agree with the mentioned poster, but equating Islam and Christianity is stupid.

420 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:30:38pm

re: #414 Mike O'Malley

Do you somehow seem to think that because two nics start with the same letter that it must be the same person? You seem to conflating the arguments posed by two separate people.

Of course I've got better things to do than to follow every response and counter response in this debate among others so it makes sense for me to check in with Dr. Behe's current thinking.

And when are you going to be checking in with current thinking from someone like Dr. Miller, or does that fall into the "you have better things to do with your time" category?

421 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:30:59pm

re: #416 Lynn B.

Interesting.

422 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:33:55pm

re: #414 Mike O'Malley

...
BTW: Did Dr. Behe respond to Pete Dunkelberg's critique? Is he even aware of it? If Dr. Behe did respond to Dunkelberg did you read and weigh Dr. Behe's response?

Don't know, but Behe usually posts his responses to his critics on the Discovery Institute website. It's a more comfortable forum for him than responding in the scientific journals in which the criticisms are published. So you may want to look there.

423 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:36:43pm

re: #418 Charles

Astounding. Even in a thread that's explicitly about the ridiculous and false charge that I'm "bashing Christians," here comes someone ranting that I "attack Christians."

It's like talking to a wall.

ROFLMAO!

424 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:38:34pm

re: #414 Mike O'Malley

Do you read anything except creationist propaganda? Have you read Ken Miller's books, for instance?

Michael Behe is an embarrassment to his own university. I noticed that you didn't even want to touch that little fact.

425 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:39:52pm

re: #405 Sharmuta

And evolution isn't the enemy of Christians or any other faith either.

Never said that it was...

426 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:40:00pm

re: #424 Charles

Do you read anything except creationist propaganda? Have you read Ken Miller's books, for instance?

Michael Behe is an embarrassment to his own university. I noticed that you didn't even want to touch that little fact.

Well- that's from 2007. It's stale. Do you have anything more current? ////

427 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:40:51pm

re: #425 TooDamNice

So what are you basing your criticism on that Christian bashing is occurring at LGF?

428 tgibson1962  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:41:04pm

re: #418 Charles

Astounding. Even in a thread that's explicitly about the ridiculous and false charge that I'm "bashing Christians," here comes someone ranting that I "attack Christians."

It's like talking to a wall.

I think the problem comes from the perception that evolution rules out the miraculous. Creation according to the Genesis account, for example, is miraculous. For the Christian, so are the virgin birth of Christ and the resurrection of Christ from the dead. While not diminishing the former, Christianity rises or falls on the latter. FWIW, I have less problem with creation than either of the other two. I have four shining examples of how children are conceived and I've buried too many friends and family. On the other hand, I've never created a universe.

429 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:43:20pm

I heard not too long ago on this site that scientists have discovered that the appendix is actually useful to humans after all. I ignored it, thinking there was some merit, but apparently it is a new creationist talking point:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

This must be the newest creationist talking point to come out in twenty years. Gotta give them credit for progress...

430 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:45:09pm

re: #413 theheat

Religion is a personal thing. Go at it with all your heart, no one is telling you that you can't. But don't expect your beliefs to be accepted as science, or to replace science. If that offends you, it's pretty obvious you want everyone to think exactly as you do..

Religion is at the historic foundation of all cultures, all morality and all law... for better or worse. Religion emerges from the basic human condition and human social interaction. I'm sorry but facts are facts. It is only in the last few centuries that Christianity has humane-ized culture enough so we can be less driven by the irrational. Now some religions are more primitive than others. And obviously some religions are more humane than others but we might very well have no modern rationality and modern science or modern human rights if it were not for the Gregory Popes and the Western Church's investment in basic science and the recovery of Classical Greek and Aristotelean thinking. Western Christianity gave the world Aquinas. Islam gave the world Al Ghazali.

431 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:45:54pm

re: #414 Mike O'Malley

.......Behe is more modest. He doesn't think that random mutation paired with natural selection is the correct explanation for the diversity of life. ............

I don't know if you are paraphrasing or not, but what is the point of saying "random mutation paired with natural selection"?

It's a simplification, but in essense you could just as well have said "evolution".

Behe doesn't think many things are possible, and even you must be aware that he has been unable to prove anything of what he thinks, or claims to think. That is the essense of the argument; not responses to responses about books that express what he thinks, but can't demonstrate.

You are just bullshitting.

432 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:48:18pm

re: #430 Mike O'Malley

How does your comment change anything 'theheat' said?

433 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:49:11pm

re: #427 Sharmuta

So what are you basing your criticism on that Christian bashing is occurring at LGF?

I never said there is any Christian bashing going on here. It was a simple observation about the number of blog entries about Creationism/Christians lately. I certainly did not intend to "shit on my host's porch". I have a lot of respect for Charles and this site and in no way intended to offend him or anyone else.

434 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:50:59pm

re: #433 TooDamNice

Dude seriously, just ignore them. This is the digital age for Pete's sake.

435 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:51:21pm

re: #433 TooDamNice

This is what you said:

I like this blog, but it just seems to me lately you have started to attack Creationists/Christians more and more and our real enemy radical Islam less and less.

How are Christians being attacked?

436 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:52:52pm

re: #433 TooDamNice

I never said there is any Christian bashing going on here.

Yes, you did.

I like this blog, but it just seems to me lately you have started to attack Creationists/Christians more and more...

437 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:53:40pm

re: #433 TooDamNice

I never said there is any Christian bashing going on here. It was a simple observation about the number of blog entries about Creationism/Christians lately. I certainly did not intend to "shit on my host's porch". I have a lot of respect for Charles and this site and in no way intended to offend him or anyone else.

You made 13 posts and yet you think it is your place to even mention that you are counting statistics on what is being discussed?

Do you honestly think anyone gives a damn what you think in that regard?

438 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:54:25pm

re: #435 Sharmuta

Maybe if Charles, a guy he has "a lot of respect for", has a different opinion on this topic than he, than perhaps he may be on the wrong side of this issue? Nah... that can't be it.

439 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:55:01pm

re: #434 Basho

Dude seriously, just ignore them. This is the digital age for Pete's sake.

Now you are being too damn nice.

;)

440 JHW  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 5:59:46pm

re: #435 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, I just got a catalog in the mail, this looks like an interesting dual-biography just published. I haven't read it, but I'm tempted to order it.
Angels and Ages

441 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:00:28pm

LOL... Yikes... I take it all back. There is no Christian bashing here. *no sarcasm*

And Tang, that's just mean. ;-) I read this blog daily and have for years.

442 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:01:13pm

re: #441 TooDamNice

This is LGF, where we fact check your ass. Don't forget it.

443 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:03:05pm

Coming late to the party but....
During RCIA class I recenty attended, the Catholic church was VERY clear that they did NOT oppose evolution or science. At all. I felt at the time, that this had been their position for a long time, as it came across to me. The story of creation is a story of love, period, and not of science. God loved us sooooooooooooo much, He.Gave.Us.The.World.

444 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:03:32pm

re: #440 JHW

That's one that's on my list.

445 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:05:47pm

re: #420 Sharmuta

And when are you going to be checking in with current thinking from someone like Dr. Miller, or does that fall into the "you have better things to do with your time" category?


Well I've been reading captured Saddamite Iraq Intelligence Service files. I'm trying to wade through Ibm Warraq's, Patricia Crone's and Dr. Andrew Bostom's works on Islamic origins, Anti-Semitism and Jihad. There is Dr. Jim Kuyper's "Bush's War", Violence and the Sacred., by René Girard, the Forgotten Genocide: Eastern Christians, the Last Arameans, by Sebatien de Courtois and a book about the transmission of eyewitness testimony and oral history in the Gospels and another on Mortgage-Backed Securities ... and Michael Behe's most recent book. I hope you won't hold my narrow minded focus on ID against me. ;-)

446 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:06:44pm

re: #441 TooDamNice

Why did you ask earlier if this was the "Darwin blog"? Do you have a problem with a blog owner posting articles concerning topics of personal interest?

447 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:09:57pm

re: #445 Mike O'Malley

I hope you won't hold my narrow minded focus on ID against me.

I think I will hold it against you. You come in here spouting completely debunked points, and when it's brought to your attention, with articles that demonstrate your talking points to be refuted, you ignore them. That's not an intellectually honest debate then. But thank you for admitting your narrow minded.

448 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:12:30pm

re: #446 Sharmuta

Why did you ask earlier if this was the "Darwin blog"? Do you have a problem with a blog owner posting articles concerning topics of personal interest?

I was being a smartass. Charles is certainly free to post anything he chooses. Sheesh... I don't want to be banned after trying for years to join...

449 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:21:52pm

re: #443 Crimsonfisted

U in RCIA? Me 2.

450 odorlesspaintthinner  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:23:31pm

I thought all Christians who "took their religion seriously" were fundamentalist, until I took some classes at a Catholic Church and they handed out literature on "how to respond to fundamentalists." I had no idea, mainly because people who don't want Creationism taught in the schools don't make the news.

451 freedombilly  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:23:53pm

When was the last thread on any subject that had two of the first three comments registering in minus double digits?

452 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:36:57pm

re: #441 TooDamNice

LOL... Yikes... I take it all back. There is no Christian bashing here. *no sarcasm*

And Tang, that's just mean. ;-) I read this blog daily and have for years.

Actually, the only Christian bashing that may occur from time to time will be from some posters who are avid atheists with legitimate gripes, mind you of established religion. That said, I am a Christian and proud of it. No apologies to anyone. I also believe in evolution as much as I believe that my G-d created the world we live in and then let nature take over.

453 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:37:57pm

re: #431 Naso Tang

I don't know if you are paraphrasing or not, but what is the point of saying "random mutation paired with natural selection"?

It's a simplification, but in essense you could just as well have said "evolution".

Behe doesn't think many things are possible, and even you must be aware that he has been unable to prove anything of what he thinks, or claims to think. That is the essense of the argument; not responses to responses about books that express what he thinks, but can't demonstrate.

You are just bullshitting.

Pray be civil, good sir ;-) An attitude of respect will facilitate the conversation ;-)

Actually I was all but quoting Dr. Behe. I find the many who diss and dismiss Dr. Behe bowdlerize and disfigure his arguments. You can find my source here

This too is stale. It was written a dozen years or so ago. However, Dr. Behe continues to take pains to point out

I want to be explicit about what I am, and am not, questioning. The word "evolution" carries many associations. Usually it means common descent -- the idea that all organisms living and dead are related by common ancestry. I have no quarrel with the idea of common descent, and continue to think it explains similarities among species. By itself, however, common descent doesn't explain the vast differences among specie

and frankly it seems to me that you too bowdlerized Dr. Behe's argument rather than wrestle with it fairly.

454 tyree  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:38:43pm

To many christians have a kneejerk opposition to anything the Catholic Church says. They have been schooled by a scholar.

455 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:41:05pm

re: #454 tyree

To many christians have a kneejerk opposition to anything the Catholic Church says. They have been schooled by a scholar.

What?

456 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:43:36pm

re: #453 Mike O'Malley

and frankly it seems to me that you too bowdlerized Dr. Behe's argument rather than wrestle with it fairly.

The problem with wrestling with a pig is that you get muddy.

If that sounds too harsh... then consider the long history of the movement with which Behe is associated, and the rejection of the claims of the (few) scientists associated with the ID movement by the general scientific community.

Note too the rather numerous key posts by Charles on ID and evolutions and the many thousands of comments contained therein. It is not as if the ID controversy, and Behe, have not had a thorough going over.

457 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:45:23pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Tomorrow is Darwinmas. How are we going to celebrate?

I'm going with a special 'Darwin's birthday week' avatar.

458 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:46:08pm

re: #453 Mike O'Malley

The age of a point debunking your precious Behe does not negate the veracity of the debunking.

459 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:48:17pm

re: #453 Mike O'Malley

Your entire purpose here seems to be to promote Michael Behe's long-discredited creationist apologetics. You've ignored everything posted in response.

I hope you don't think you're fooling anyone.

460 Mike O'Malley  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:52:34pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

I think I will hold it against you. You come in here spouting completely debunked points, and when it's brought to your attention, with articles that demonstrate your talking points to be refuted, you ignore them. That's not an intellectually honest debate then. But thank you for admitting your narrow minded.


So you will!

Of course we can trust you that:
1/- (i) come in here spouting completely debunked points,
2/- when it's brought to (my) attention, with articles that demonstrate (my) talking points to be refuted, (I) ignore them
3/- That's not an intellectually honest debate then.


LOL, and you can't even be civil enough not to degrade and dismiss what I wrote as "talking points"!

Sigh, I'm disappointed but that often happens when one is inclined to be "politically incorrect". But since I can't seem to charm you into civil discourse it's probably time to move on ...

Good day

461 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:53:25pm

There have been strands of human hair found in fosselized hyena dung that date back about 250,000 years ago. Human hair. New earth? I think not.

462 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:55:00pm

re: #460 Mike O'Malley

You talking points are dismissed and degraded because they've been debunked by science, not because of my level of civility. Way to move the goal post.

463 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:57:58pm

re: #453 Mike O'Malley


This too is stale. It was written a dozen years or so ago.

ID'ers and their never ending parade of totally invalid arguments...

and frankly it seems to me that you too bowdlerized Dr. Behe's argument rather than wrestle with it fairly.

Behe suggests that magical acts - supernatural interventions - plug his imagined gaps in evolution. That's not science, it's childish idiocy that furthermore has precisely zero science to back it up.

464 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 6:58:44pm

re: #460 Mike O'Malley

Since you can't be bothered to respond to anything I post, even when I address you directly, I'll take you at your word and assume you're not interested in posting at LGF any more.

465 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:03:22pm

"That refutation is dated" is my new favorite spin.

466 VioletTiger  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:04:22pm

Once again you well informed Lizards sent me to google to look something up--I always learn something here. I had never heard of this Behe guy and I was mildly horrified to see that he is at Lehigh- as a biochemist?! My daughter almost went there as a bio-chem major. I just can't comprehend a creationist biochemist. It boogles the mind.

467 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:07:03pm

re: #466 VioletTiger

It boogles the mind.

Well, Behe may play boogie-woogie with biology, but I suspect all of our minds are boggled by the hubris that is thrown out by certain ideologues.

468 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:07:14pm

re: #466 VioletTiger

I just can't comprehend a creationist biochemist. It boogles the mind.

Oxymoron comes to mind.

469 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:11:03pm

re: #452 rightymouse

Actually, the only Christian bashing that may occur from time to time will be from some posters who are avid atheists with legitimate gripes, mind you of established religion. That said, I am a Christian and proud of it. No apologies to anyone. I also believe in evolution as much as I believe that my G-d created the world we live in and then let nature take over.

Thanks for your post... I am a proud Christian too. I have noticed a lot more intolerance lately. I had an atheist tell me at work that anyone who raises their children in a religious atmosphere is dooming them to failure in life! He even said such people should not even bother enrolling their kids in college. I just kills me that some people have the attitude if one believes in God they are ignorant.

470 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:11:59pm

re: #466 VioletTiger

If you watch the Nova special on Dover linked last night, you'll become acquainted with him. The best part of his "expert" testimony was when he said there was no peer-reviewed material on the evolution of the immune system, then the lawyer cross-examining him produces a large stack of books and papers that he places in front of Behe, practically burying him. Devastating.

471 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:13:59pm

re: #441 TooDamNice

LOL... Yikes... I take it all back. There is no Christian bashing here. *no sarcasm*

And Tang, that's just mean. ;-) I read this blog daily and have for years.

If you had you should know that the term Christian bashing is a trite generalization. Creationists and ID/DI supporters get a hard time here. That includes probably a larger proportion of Muslims than Christians, for what that is worth towards fairness concepts, but you must know that since you have been reading here for years.

As to take back, do you mean you changed your mind in the space of a few posts?

472 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:14:21pm

re: #469 TooDamNice

I just kills me that some people have the attitude if one believes in God they are ignorant.

And it's thanks in part to people like the creationists that some people get that idea. It's not right what that person said to you, but it's also not right for a section of Christians to be promoting ignorance, because that's what ID does.

473 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:22:11pm

re: #472 Sharmuta

And it's thanks in part to people like the creationists that some people get that idea. It's not right what that person said to you, but it's also not right for a section of Christians to be promoting ignorance, because that's what ID does.

What does science think of the idea that a man can be the Son of God and die on a cross and rise again? If science has issues with creation, surely it has issues with the Story of Christ. If I spread the Word of God as my religion commands, am I promoting ignorance?

474 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:22:50pm

re: #473 TooDamNice

Science can't speak to the metaphysical.

475 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:23:45pm

re: #474 Sharmuta

I am curious... why not?

476 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:23:58pm

re: #470 Sharmuta

If you watch the Nova special on Dover linked last night, you'll become acquainted with him. The best part of his "expert" testimony was when he said there was no peer-reviewed material on the evolution of the immune system, then the lawyer cross-examining him produces a large stack of books and papers that he places in front of Behe, practically burying him. Devastating.

That was brilliant. Encapsulates the whole debate really - 'cdesign proponentsist' comes up with incredibly weak talking point, gets demolished by weight of opposing scientific evidence, loses all credibility and is left looking very silly.

477 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:25:03pm

re: #453 Mike O'Malley

and frankly it seems to me that you too bowdlerized Dr. Behe's argument rather than wrestle with it fairly.

Civil argument means making a good faith argument.

The statement that science has proved evolution (the theory) to any reasonable extent is irrefutable.

The statement that Behe has presented no evidence to contradict that is irrefutable.

The statement that Behe has been proven wrong in the cases where he has attempted to present such evidence is irrefutable.

The statement by Behe that "Cells are simply too complex to have evolved randomly" is irrefutably wrong, since that is precisely what evolution (the theory) explains.

The statement that Behe continues to promote refuted arguments to the gullible is irrefutable.

The statement that you present refuted arguments for Behe is irrefutable.

478 Omega3  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:26:28pm

re: #368 Sharmuta

No. Take the time and study the issue for yourself.

Oh. I am fairly sure I have a good enough handle on the ideas surrounding this topic. I just don't understand what the issue here is. And where everyone comes down. There seems to be a wide variety of misunderstanding going on with such a well-debated and old argument. So that is what I'm confused about. What is the problem that it requires addressing?

479 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:27:02pm

re: #469 TooDamNice

Thanks for your post... I am a proud Christian too. I have noticed a lot more intolerance lately. I had an atheist tell me at work that anyone who raises their children in a religious atmosphere is dooming them to failure in life! He even said such people should not even bother enrolling their kids in college. I just kills me that some people have the attitude if one believes in God they are ignorant.


The thing is that our blog host is not saying that belief in evolution precludes belief in God as our creator. I would not be here if I thought otherwise.

I laugh at people who think I'm ignorant just because I believe in God and am a Christian.

It's their intolerance in question. Not my supposed 'ignorance'.

480 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:28:08pm

re: #475 TooDamNice

Methodological naturalism- natural explanations for natural phenomenon. God would be supernatural, or metaphysical. It is not possible for science to test for the supernatural.

481 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:28:55pm

re: #473 TooDamNice

What does science think of the idea that a man can be the Son of God and die on a cross and rise again? If science has issues with creation, surely it has issues with the Story of Christ. If I spread the Word of God as my religion commands, am I promoting ignorance?

Maybe... that's a chance one takes with faith.

482 VioletTiger  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:30:59pm

re: #476 Jimmah

This must be the same mindset as the troofers. No amount of objective evidence will ever be enough as their minds are closed for business.

483 TooDamNice  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:36:08pm

re: #480 Sharmuta

Methodological naturalism- natural explanations for natural phenomenon. God would be supernatural, or metaphysical. It is not possible for science to test for the supernatural.

That is some heavy reading... thanks for the link.

484 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:36:51pm

re: #479 rightymouse

The thing is that our blog host is not saying that belief in evolution precludes belief in God as our creator. I would not be here if I thought otherwise.

I laugh at people who think I'm ignorant just because I believe in God and am a Christian.

It's their intolerance in question. Not my supposed 'ignorance'.

I trust you are not laughing at anyone here?

485 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:38:52pm

re: #484 Naso Tang

I trust you are not laughing at anyone here?

Not at all.

486 rightymouse  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:40:07pm

Bed time for me.

487 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:43:43pm

re: #482 VioletTiger

This must be the same mindset as the troofers. No amount of objective evidence will ever be enough as their minds are closed for business.

Yes, it's exactly the same kind of delusional, paranoid mindset. It's like they all have a little Ministry of Truth inside their own heads, filtering out and erasing information that is 'politically incorrect', constantly declaring victory, demonising enemies and so on. Everything you say to them will be processed by it; hence the extreme difficulty in getting them to see sense, even when the arguments are as conclusive as they are in this case.

488 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:46:58pm

re: #397 Mike O'Malley

No, can you explain and clarify what you wrote? You wrote, "Occam's Razor takes logical umbrage at the gratuitous invocation of such irreduceable complexity". I want to understand what you wrote.

BTW: the link you provided is stale. Dunkelberg's post dates from 2003. I'd like to complete reading Behe's most recent book first so I understand how Dr. Behe has reflected upon and advanced his argument before I weigh current critique.

See my #393.
Anyway can you explain your reasoning above for me?

489 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:49:32pm

re: #487 Jimmah

Did you get rid of your awesome avatar just to celebrate Darwin's B-Day? Because your old avatar always made me laugh...

490 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:50:37pm

re: #402 Ojoe

"God created the universe" is about as simple an explanation that there could be.

LOL

Overly simplistic. It doesn't explain anything; not the universe, and not God. To postulate a creator God beyond human explanation is just another way to claim that humans cannot explain the universe itself so we shouldn't even try, because the Mind of God is beyond human ken, despite the impressive strides that empirical science has made toward doing precisely that.

491 hopperandadropper  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:52:22pm

Maybe someone should point this out to Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Mike Gallagher, and other super-Catholic radio talking heads who have shown sympathy (extreme, in Coulter's case) for creationist horsefeathers.

492 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:53:20pm

re: #404 toodamnice

I am seriously honored that you personally responded to my post. Did I touch a nerve? I noticed that you didn't answer the question. I have been a long time lurker and was finally able to join and I am glad that I did. I like this blog, but it just seems to me lately you have started to attack Creationists/Christians more and more and our real enemy radical Islam less and less.

So I didn't research the birth certificate thing as thoroughly as I should have. That hardly makes me a kook. Have you noticed how many times Barry has kissed islamic ass since he took office? Right a post about that... and lay off Christians, we aren't your enemy.

Most Christians are not creationists. To criticize attempts by creationists to shoehorn their pet religious dogmas into public high school science class is not anywhere close to the same thing as attacking Christianity.

493 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:55:09pm

re: #473 TooDamNice

What does science think of the idea that a man can be the Son of God and die on a cross and rise again? If science has issues with creation, surely it has issues with the Story of Christ. If I spread the Word of God as my religion commands, am I promoting ignorance?

TDN, I'm not a Christian, so let me make that clear right up front. But we don't have millennia of clear sedimentary, geological, paleontological, biological evidence that categorically refutes the Christian story to which you refer. In fact, there isn't any scientific evidence that refutes (or corroborates) it at all. That's because, as Sharmuta points out, it's a narrative that, if it occurred, occurred outside the realm of science.

Creation, OTOH, is by definition a scientific concept. The fact that we have myths, legends and wonderful apocryphal stories about it doesn't change that. They're simply the best efforts of men (and maybe a few women) to describe and explain the world around them using the best tools and the best evidence they had available to them at the time.

That they were able to craft their speculations in a way that provided spiritual inspiration to people down through the ages is a testament to their wisdom and their grasp of the transcendental. And we should try never to lose touch with that sense of mystery and wonder that they convey.

But to put it in perhaps crass terms, we know better now. We were endowed with the wisdom and the curiosity to progress beyond their understanding of their surroundings. So it remains a mystery to me why "religious" people consider it meritorious to trash that gift and reject the riches it allows us to harvest.

494 omahadad  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:57:10pm

So the Pope can't "credit a higher power for the 'complexities of life'". If true, shouldn't the Pope be looking for a new line of work? Can I push the bullshit button? Sloppy journalism is still sloppy journalism, even if you think it contributes to your argument.

Compromising my faith to comform to to science, or vice vera, seems like a fruitless endeavor. Faith deals with the metaphysical aspects of our existence; science deals with the what's demonstrable. That doesn't detract from faith's relevance to the fundamental aspects of our humanity, nor does it invalidate the deference to Providence that is central to Western liberal political philosopy.

495 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:57:44pm

re: #414 Mike O'Malley

Opps, I missed your response. It seems to be a strawman argument. For now we can leave it to physicists and theologians to explain the complexity of the whole universe. Behe is more modest. He doesn't think that random mutation paired with natural selection is the correct explanation for the diversity of life. In this light your response doesn't satisfy and your original statement doesn't make much sense ... to me at least. Perhaps we should let that go for now as you seem to be getting agitated.

It doesn't matter what Behe thinks; what matters is what he can demonstrate. And as of yet, he has yet to proffer a purported example of 'irreduceable complexity' that has not been utterly debunked.

I read Darwin's Black Box years ago and followed the debate for a while and Dr. Behe seemed to do far better than some would allow. Of course I've got better things to do than to follow every response and counter response in this debate among others so it makes sense for me to check in with Dr. Behe's current thinking.

BTW: Did Dr. Behe respond to Pete Dunkelberg's critique? Is he even aware of it? If Dr. Behe did respond to Dunkelberg did you read and weigh Dr. Behe's response?

It would make sense for you to check out Ken Miller's destruction of Behe's contentions. It can be found on this site.

496 Basho  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 7:59:07pm

Anybody else planning to find a spot on a busy subway station and read off verses from The Origin of Species loudly? I already made my sign that reads "Adapt, all ye who enter here."

497 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:00:19pm

re: #461 rightymouse

There have been strands of human hair found in fosselized hyena dung that date back about 250,000 years ago. Human hair. New earth? I think not.

All part of the devil's deception, my friend. He put 'em there.

498 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:01:28pm

re: #474 Sharmuta

Science can't speak to the metaphysical.

Or the 'pataphysical, for that matter.

499 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:02:53pm

re: #494 omahadad

So the Pope can't "credit a higher power for the 'complexities of life'". If true, shouldn't the Pope be looking for a new line of work?

Perhaps you should do some research on the background here, rather than being too quick to push any buttons...

One of the key arguments of the ID movement revolves around "irreducible complexity", and argument that is quite fallacious and rejected by science in general. The Pope smartly understands this (so it would appear) and refuses to go for the ID movement's "irreducible complexity" argument.

500 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:05:09pm

re: #430 Mike O'Malley

Religion is at the historic foundation of all cultures, all morality and all law... for better or worse. Religion emerges from the basic human condition and human social interaction. I'm sorry but facts are facts. It is only in the last few centuries that Christianity has humane-ized culture enough so we can be less driven by the irrational. Now some religions are more primitive than others. And obviously some religions are more humane than others but we might very well have no modern rationality and modern science or modern human rights if it were not for the Gregory Popes and the Western Church's investment in basic science and the recovery of Classical Greek and Aristotelean thinking. Western Christianity gave the world Aquinas. Islam gave the world Al Ghazali.

I think that it would be more correct to say that Christianity was domesticated by its confrontation with modernity, and no longer does the kinds of things that it did in the Middle Ages. Islam, otoh, has just begun its own confrontation with modernity, and in an era of easy anonymous global travel and ready access to the materials and expertise needed to construct WMDs, its growing pains should be a matter of global concern.

501 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:06:58pm

re: #433 TooDamNice

I never said there is any Christian bashing going on here. It was a simple observation about the number of blog entries about Creationism/Christians lately. I certainly did not intend to "shit on my host's porch". I have a lot of respect for Charles and this site and in no way intended to offend him or anyone else.

Posts about creationism are not posts about Christianity per se. Most Christians are not creationists (although most Muslims are).

502 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:13:15pm

re: #501 Salamantis

Posts about creationism are not posts about Christianity per se. Most Christians are not creationists (although most Muslims are).

As shown by this Gallup poll released today, it is unclear whether or not "most" Christians in the US are creationists or not. Certainly those people who attend "church" weekly (and again, we are not sure what is meant by "church") much more reject evolution than accept it.

503 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:13:23pm

re: #453 Mike O'Malley

and frankly it seems to me that you too bowdlerized Dr. Behe's argument rather than wrestle with it fairly.

Please link me to any empirical experiments that Behe has undertaken to corroborate his claims. I'll bet you can't find any. And, as has been mentioned here before, his claims have been quite thoroughly and comprehensively refuted by actual practicing scientists, not propagandizing charlatans with unused degrees.

504 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:16:25pm

re: #502 freetoken

As shown by this Gallup poll released today, it is unclear whether or not "most" Christians in the US are creationists or not. Certainly those people who attend "church" weekly (and again, we are not sure what is meant by "church") much more reject evolution than accept it.

Considering the fact that a large percentage of US Christians are Roman Catholics, and that their faith explicitly accepts evolution as valid and sound science, I have a hard time accepting that poll's results.

505 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:21:25pm

re: #460 Mike O'Malley

So you will!

Of course we can trust you that:
1/- (i) come in here spouting completely debunked points,
2/- when it's brought to (my) attention, with articles that demonstrate (my) talking points to be refuted, (I) ignore them
3/- That's not an intellectually honest debate then.


LOL, and you can't even be civil enough not to degrade and dismiss what I wrote as "talking points"!

Sigh, I'm disappointed but that often happens when one is inclined to be "politically incorrect". But since I can't seem to charm you into civil discourse it's probably time to move on ...

Good day

Being politically incorrect is supposed to be some badge of courage and integrity. But racism, sexism, homophobia and religious bigotry are also politically incorrect, and do not merit or deserve adoring accolades.

Neither does embracing thoroughly discredited pseudoscientific charlatans who are attempting to further an empirically false and unconstitutional pedagogical agenda.

506 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:22:38pm

re: #504 Salamantis

The poll results are the best we have, I am afraid.

Yes, while there are many Roman Catholics in the US, various forms of Protestantism dominate, and certainly among the regular adherents (those who go to church weekly) one can see many Protestant offshoots being the most common.

Please note too that a Roman Catholic layman may not always, in practice, believe what the Vatican has published.

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:30:04pm

re: #251 LudwigVanQuixote

OK here's one I can tell...

At an Orthodox wedding, the mother of the bride is pregnant.
At a Conservative wedding, the rabbi is pregnant.
At a Reform wedding, the Bride is pregnant.

I've heard it with the last two flipped, as well...

And don't forget--a Yeky wedding starts on time. Even if the bride is late.

508 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:31:01pm

re: #506 freetoken

The poll results are the best we have, I am afraid.

Yes, while there are many Roman Catholics in the US, various forms of Protestantism dominate, and certainly among the regular adherents (those who go to church weekly) one can see many Protestant offshoots being the most common.

Please note too that a Roman Catholic layman may not always, in practice, believe what the Vatican has published.

It is also true that the two largest Protestant denominations - the fundamentalist Southern Baptists and the charismatic pentacostal Assemblies of God - reject evolution and embrace creationism.

509 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:36:44pm

re: #489 Basho

Yeah rage boy and chums are just taking a little break for a day or two.

510 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:40:53pm

re: #490 Salamantis

I think we should try and understand the universe as much as possible; we've been given reason and understanding for that.

Maybe we will slowly see more of the mind of God, but I think such is beyond all understanding in this life for us.

Meanwhile I myself with what little understanding of the universe i have, appreciate it greatly.

Good night all.

511 omahadad  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 8:53:00pm

re: #499 freetoken

You show me the word "irreducible" one time in that article, and I'll concede the point. You're arguing what you think my point is; let me reiterate - this is sloppy journalism.

I'll grant that the article say Pope Benedict XVI does not advocate the position of proponents of "intelligent design", which it then defines as those who credit a "higher power for the complexity of life."

Many people, including, no doubt, the Pope, credit a "higher power" for the complexities of life, without adhering to the dogma of intelligent design. This article seems to lump all believers together as irrational buffoons...that's my objection.

512 freetoken  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 9:28:14pm

re: #511 omahadad


Many people, including, no doubt, the Pope, credit a "higher power" for the complexities of life, without adhering to the dogma of intelligent design. This article seems to lump all believers together as irrational buffoons...that's my objection.

Fair enough... but it sounded to me as if you were Pope-bashing as well as criticizing the news article.

513 omahadad  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 10:03:53pm

re: #512 freetoken

No, I was ridiculing the article's characterization...or, rather, (in my interpretation) mischaracterization, of the Pope's position. It seemed calculated to me, and I resorted to sarcasm. Certainly, no disrespect to the Pope or the Catholic Church was intended. I'll try to be more careful in the future...hard to do, smart(dumb?)assery is part of my genetic makeup. Don't blame me, blame evolution.

514 Jim C.  Wed, Feb 11, 2009 10:14:30pm

As noted above, some Christians don't consider Catholics Christians. Jack Chick, for example.

515 angst  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 7:07:41am

Today is Darwin Day at my kids' Catholic schools. I asked what they were going to do to celebrate and the littlest one said "We'll eat something."

Sounds like survival of the fittest to me, all right!

516 Cato  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 8:01:36am

I can actually see Aquinas having something to say on evolution. You would have to show me where Augustine said something about it.

517 lurking faith  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 8:12:39am

re: #170 Mike O'Malley

How broad is that reference to "some forms of ID"? (I don't have time to research unlinked stuff today; sorry.) The ID that is currently being pushed is utterly unscientific, and I think it is has become necessary for anyone wishing to combine science with a belief in creation to reject the term ID. I'm assuming you mean something other than the Disco Institute's type of ID, based on your very interesting links.

Those of you who downdinged this post:
Did you take the trouble to read the links with any care? Or at all?

The first one is the announcement of a conference on evolution, on the assumption that evolution in some form is an established fact, and intending to consider the theoretical implications of recent discoveries. Looks like an interesting and potentially very valuable conference.

The other links to many writings, but the underlying idea is that the universe functions on principles of reason, and that it would undermine reason if creation were the result of mere random chance. (A house built on a foundation of sand cannot stand.)

518 lurking faith  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 8:21:57am

re: #517 lurking faith

Mea culpa. Sorry, everybody. As I read further, I see I assumed wrong about Mike O'Malley's intent. Behe's form of ID is unscientific, and I should have looked him up before commenting.

Still, the links in the post I replied to are interesting.

519 hohoboy  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 9:20:26am

Hey, I'm a Christian...why are you and the Pope bashing me? ;)

520 RightLogic  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 12:11:01pm

re: #2 RightLogic

The Pope hates Christians?! That statement has more soundness to it than any ID theory.

Boy, I go away for a day and look what happens. -21 on the Vote-O-Meter. Maybe I should have qualified my snarky comment (against ID Theory not the Pope) with the fact that I am a devout Roman Catholic. Jeeeez.

521 Throbert McGee  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 12:35:19pm

re: #473 TooDamNice

What does science think of the idea that a man can be the Son of God and die on a cross and rise again? If science has issues with creation, surely it has issues with the Story of Christ.

I updinged this one because it so concisely gets to -- ahem -- the crux of the matter.

For some Christians, it makes no sense to "compartmentalize" the Bible and say that although the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection are to be taken literally, the creation stories in Genesis should not be.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 79 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 252 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1