Silly Mission Statement of the Day

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Opinion • Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 9:09 am PST • Views: 781

I’ve received quite a few hate mails from creationists (and I do mean hate mail) freaking out over the posts about Charles Darwin and the deceptive agenda of “intelligent design,” and the post about Mike Huckabee’s claim that the stimulus bill is “anti-religion,” so here’s a quick statement on the matter.

There is absolutely nothing “conservative” about wanting to amend the Constitution of the United States, to make it an explicitly Christian document. This goes totally against every principle of the founding fathers — they built in protections against this kind of thing specifically to prevent what Mike Huckabee is advocating.

There is nothing “anti-Christian” about standing against this. You are absolutely entitled to believe in any God — or lack thereof — in this country. But you are not entitled to force the teaching of your beliefs into science classes as “intelligent design” or creationism or whatever name these deceptive people put on it. And they currently have efforts under way in at least ten states to do exactly that.

A true conservative respects and honors the US Constitution. He/she does not try to enshrine his/her own religious beliefs as the law of the land. There’s a name for this practice: “theocracy.” It should be repellent to anyone who really believes in conservative principles.

The reason there are a lot of posts about Charles Darwin on the front page is that it was the 200th anniversary of his birthday on Thursday — as you could easily see if you read any of what I posted on the subject. I believe it’s an important date, because Darwin was one of the most influential and brilliant scientists in all of history. And it’s sad to see so many self-labeled “conservatives” who not only don’t respect that, but feel threatened by someone who does.

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1 pjaicomo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:11:24am

Thank you Charles. This needed to be said.

2 yesandno  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:11:51am

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's...

3 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:12:22am

HEAR! HEAR!

4 Edgesitter  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:12:28am

and AMEN !

5 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:12:53am

Live by the Golden Rule:

Do unto others, and then split!

Oh wait, that's not the Golden Rule...sorry

7 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:13:05am

re: #3 jcm

I second that. You took the words from my fingers...

8 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:13:20am

re: #2 yesandno

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's...

Until Caesar want's stimulus... (but that's not a religious thing)

9 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:13:31am

*applause*

10 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:13:41am

Well said!

11 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:13:58am

Imagine if Obama wanted to amend the constitution so as to make the USA a "Socialist" state?

/(who needs to amend the constitution for that?)

12 Pastorius  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:14:16am

That doesn't seem silly to me.

13 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:14:20am

re: #5 Desert Dog

Live by the Golden Rule:

Do unto others, and then split!

Oh wait, that's not the Golden Rule...sorry

He who has the gold, makes the rules.


Wizard of ID

14 Opinionated  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:14:34am

We are heading over a Socialist cliff and the kooks are less worried about reality and what's at the bottom and more concerned with their delusions of amending the Constitution to their particular religious beliefs- something that will never occur.

15 yesandno  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:14:34am

re: #5 Desert Dog

Live by the Golden Rule:

Do unto others, and then split!

Oh wait, that's not the Golden Rule...sorry

We do live by the Golden Rule...

Who has the gold makes the rules...

16 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:14:52am

re: #11 Naso Tang

Imagine if Obama wanted to amend the constitution so as to make the USA a "Socialist" state?

/(who needs to amend the constitution for that?)

I just want my bailout/stimulus.
/

17 yesandno  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:15:10am

re: #13 Dustyvet

He who has the gold, makes the rules.


Wizard of ID


Oops, beat me to it!

18 DistantThunder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:15:22am

Christians should be drawn to facts, wherever they may lead. God is Truth.

20 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:15:29am

re: #15 yesandno

We do live by the Golden Rule...

Who has the goldthe printing presses at the Federal Reserve makes the rules...

21 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:15:48am

It is a bizarre and feeble faith that needs buttressing with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflies.

22 Max Darkside  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:16:08am

No worries, Charles. You are right and they are wrong. Stand proud and smile.

23 Duane  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:16:23am

This Catholic is fearful of the changes that Huckabee would make to the Constitution.

24 Cato the Elder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:16:29am

OT: Anybody else here a fan of Josh Whedon ("Buffy", "Angel", "Firefly")?

Well, he's back. His new series, "Dollhouse", started last night. Starring Eliza Dushku ("Faith" in in the Buffyverse). You can watch the first episode on Hulu here.

Oh, and a little red meat for the creationists: Whedon's an atheist.

25 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:16:32am

re: #13 Dustyvet

He who has the gold, makes the rules.


Wizard of ID

Nowadays it's "He who makes the rules, gets to steal the gold".

26 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:16:59am

Here is the thing, though: Huckabee is talking out his butt. Which of God's Laws would he enshrine? To be perfectly honest, Christians have little to no use for the Law, as outlined in Torah. Our constitution used many many of the concepts in Torah for US law, but they stayed as far from the concept of a theocracy as possible.

27 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:17:12am

Some informative links, sorry if these have been posted before...

[Link: www.sciam.com...]

[Link: www.sciam.com...]

[Link: www.agiweb.org...]

28 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:17:19am

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Fairly big fan, at least of the Firefly series.

29 yesandno  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:17:26am

re: #14 Opinionated

We are heading over a Socialist cliff and the kooks are less worried about reality and what's at the bottom and more concerned with their delusions of amending the Constitution to their particular religious beliefs- something that will never occur.

They don't mind going off the cliff...only they forgot they tied a rope around their necks before they jumped...little chance of survival for any other them.

30 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:18:01am

re: #19 jcm

That's an awesome web page. Thank you.

31 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:18:12am

re: #21 Ojoe

It is a bizarre and feeble faith that needs buttressing with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflies.

Or that when that faith is challenged, they experience a meltdown.

32 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:18:54am

re: #30 Ojoe

That's an awesome web page. Thank you.

You are welcome!

Reminds me I haven't gone hiking for awhile.

33 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:18:58am
34 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:19:21am

Lately, I've been appalled by the number of people calling themselves "conservatives" who seem to have forgotten the principles of conservatism- less intrusive government, fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility, and individual rights.

Intelligent Design is the antithesis of all of these as it wants to expand the governments role in taking away our rights, stripping parents of the responsibility to teach their children their faith, and placing the cost of the inevitable lawsuits on the people.

It can't be said much better than by one of the parents of Dover:

Well, what am I supposed to tolerate? A small encroachment on my First Amendment rights? Well, I'm not going to. I think this is clear what people have done. And it outrages me.

Well said, Sir.

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:19:54am

Full disclosure:

I just unlimbered pre-Boomer's SockPuppy to give this thread another upding.

This is an important statement. Charles deserves all the support I can give.

/deserves it as a person, ... not just as the proprietor of the blog I post upon

36 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:20:52am

re: #33 Desert Dog

Almost the view from my house Superstition Mountains

better picture

Nice!

37 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:20:53am

re: #8 jcm

Until Caesar want's stimulus... (but that's not a religious thing)

Given the things some Roman Emperors were into, it might well be an unholy thing though.

38 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:21:03am

Christians should not fear what scientific discoveries reveal about our world. They should, instead, revel in the wonders brought forth by the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Salk, and Einstein. The enlightenment comes to us bit by bit via these brilliant minds. I would also state that these discoveries reinforce in my mind the existance of a loving G-d. They go hand in hand.

39 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:21:16am

OT, but here's something that could only have come from the Ministry of Propaganda, The recovery plan: shock & awe for a shaken nation. Have your barf-bag handy.

The success of the stimulus package may be measured less by visible achievements than by what does not happen — the home that is not foreclosed, the family that doesn't slip into poverty, the disease that does not go undiagnosed.

"The one thing we'll never know is what would have happened if we didn't do it," said Nigel Gault, chief U.S. economist for IHS Global Insight.

Nigel? Is that John's brother?

40 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:21:18am

re: #34 Sharmuta

Somehow, being a "conservative" to some people means to be highly religious. Not that there's anything wrong with being religious, but my view is conservatism is a political philosophy, not a religious identity.

41 Shr_Nfr  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:22:02am

Until the Republicans allow their party to return to its roots and to stop being perceived as a religious fundamentalist party, they will not be able to gain enough traction with the general population to increase their number in the House and Senate and get their nominee elected President. They do not have to be people that renounce religion, but they have to stop making it the center of their agenda. A theocracy has no place in America and the general public will vote that way.

42 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:22:23am

re: #21 Ojoe

It is a bizarre and feeble faith that needs buttressing with recent dinosaurs and instant butterflies.

And Unicorns, Ojoe, don't forget the Unicorns.

/sarc

43 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:22:28am

re: #39 SlartyBartfast

OT, but here's something that could only have come from the Ministry of Propaganda, The recovery plan: shock & awe for a shaken nation. Have your barf-bag handy.

Nigel? Is that John's brother?

That is a "NEWS" story? I could almost see this guy getting a leg tingle writing this tripe...ugh!

44 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:23:03am

re: #40 Desert Dog

Somehow, being a "conservative" to some people means to be highly religious. Not that there's anything wrong with being religious, but my view is conservatism is a political philosophy, not a religious identity.

Exactly! If the only reason a person thinks they're conservative is because they're religion makes them so, then it's incumbent upon them to reconsider. There is much more to the conservative ideology than one's faith.

45 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:23:07am

I studiously avoid ID, creationist and Darwinian threads. That being said, This Huckabee crap is going nowhere. Seems like just another diversion.

46 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:23:07am

re: #30 Ojoe

That's an awesome web page. Thank you.

okay mountains...sorta second rate compared to these...

[Link: images.google.com...]

47 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:23:59am

re: #33 Desert Dog

Almost the view from my house Superstition Mountains

better picture

those dinky little things?...they are pretty tho

48 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:24:45am

Specter, a Fulcrum of the Stimulus Bill, Pulls Off a Coup for Health Money

For years, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania has been the National Institutes of Health’s most ardent champion on Capitol Hill. Having survived two bouts with cancer, open-heart surgery and even a faulty diagnosis of Lou Gehrig’s disease, he has long insisted that research that results in medical cures is the best service that government can provide.

But even lobbyists are stunned by the coup Mr. Specter pulled off this week. In return for providing one of only three Republican votes in the Senate for the Obama administration’s $787 billion economic stimulus package, he was able to secure a 34 percent increase in the health agency’s budget — to $39 billion from $29 billion.

After money intended for highways, schools and states, it is the largest of chunk of financing in the budget and is almost three times the $3.5 billion first approved by the House. Nearly $2 billion is intended for building and equipment projects at the N.I.H. campus in Bethesda, Md., as well as at universities across the country. But most of the money will go to pay for as many as 15,000 additional grants submitted by scientists at universities across the country.

. . .

How Mr. Specter managed his coup is a story of tough bargaining that began in a legislative backroom and took an important turn at a presidential Super Bowl party.

/mother[expletive deleted] sold out the country for his $10 billion pet project

49 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:24:52am

re: #41 Shr_Nfr

If the Republicans nominate Jindal, Palin or Huckabee they lose. Reagan was so good because he put up his political beliefs for all to see. He was a Christian, but that was not the first thing you heard from him when he talked about government.

50 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:24:53am

re: #34 Sharmuta

Lately, I've been appalled by the number of people calling themselves "conservatives" who seem to have forgotten the principles of conservatism- less intrusive government, fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility, and individual rights.

Intelligent Design is the antithesis of all of these as it wants to expand the governments role in taking away our rights, stripping parents of the responsibility to teach their children their faith, and placing the cost of the inevitable lawsuits on the people.

It can't be said much better than by one of the parents of Dover:

Well said, Sir.

That's why I try to judge everything against the core; Life, Liberty, Property. That when society intrudes into those areas does it meet the test that the intrusion benefits the whole of society.

A Christian Constitution does not meet that test.

51 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:25:09am

re: #46 albusteve

okay mountains...sorta second rate compared to these...

[Link: images.google.com...]

My hills

52 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:25:23am

Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to understand that a Church of America would be disastrous. They had seen what corrupted power in organized religion looked like in Europe and they wanted no part of that.

Early on in the last election cycle, my hubby was rather enamored with Huckabee. Boy, it didn't take long for the scales to fall from his eyes. I did not like him out of the starting gate. Something smarmy about him right away.

53 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:25:28am

re: #47 albusteve

those dinky little things?...they are pretty tho

hey now, I grew up in Colorado, the little hills you have down in NM are nothing to write home about either! hahahaha

54 bthomas  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:25:35am

This may be the greatest current argument for taking control away from the government. Who do people trust to decide what their children are taught? Christian, atheist, and all others should be able to agree on this. What about history as a subject? Is any area of study safe in the hands of politicians? *Hint: no.

55 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:26:25am

re: #45 tommygum

I studiously avoid ID, creationist and Darwinian threads. That being said, This Huckabee crap is going nowhere. Seems like just another diversion.

I understand. I avoid some, sometimes.

That said, I think this crap has a potential for going somewhere ... UNLESS it's challenged up-front.

56 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:26:59am

re: #40 Desert Dog

Somehow, being a "conservative" to some people means to be highly religious. Not that there's anything wrong with being religious, but my view is conservatism is a political philosophy, not a religious identity.

The media promotes that connection in this way:

Conservative = Religious.
Religious = Backward, a Nutcase.
Ergo, Conservative = Backward Nutcase.

You don't want to be called a "nutcase," do you? What are you, some backwards, inbred country bumpkin? Why are you so bitter? Embrace Change!

57 Shr_Nfr  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:27:07am

re: #39 SlartyBartfast

What this package has done is to destroy faith in the government. If you are a businessman, are you going to put your hard earned bucks into a business knowing that the Congress will ex ante play grab ass with your investment? I think not. Until the faith in government and the future return, do not expect the economy to get better. fwiw, Rasmussen did a poll in which they found out that 58% of Americans believed that Congress would pass this thing without understanding it.

58 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:27:15am

re: #45 tommygum

I studiously avoid ID, creationist and Darwinian threads. That being said, This Huckabee crap is going nowhere. Seems like just another diversion.

Why do you avoid them? Just curious.

59 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:27:50am

I have been sending friends to watch that Nova program on Dover. It is quite an eye-opener for Christians who are willing to understand the problem.

60 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:27:52am

re: #53 Desert Dog

hey now, I grew up in Colorado, the little hills you have down in NM are nothing to write home about either! hahahaha

Colorado mountains are just to massive and packed together...I like separate ranges like Wyoming and NM...the landscape in NM is unreal amigo...nothing like it anywhere

61 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:28:18am

re: #41 Shr_Nfr

Right you are, except IMHO with only two parties to chose from, the extremists of left and right each have a home & so contaminate the two parties that reasonable people are left in the cold.

I think we need at least three parties. The number two does not have a center.


That said, check out the Modern Whig Party.

62 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:28:53am

Can I have a seven trillion dollar bailout and a theocracy, please?

/the un-best of both worlds

63 crashdvis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:29:22am

This is a major problem for the Republican party. If they keep heading down this path they are going to be a smaller and smaller force in the coming years. We need to separate the religious nuts from the party for it to survive. Sadly, I don't think that is going to happen.

64 yesandno  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:29:43am

OT

This is interesting...
[Link: www.newseum.org...]

65 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:29:47am

re: #57 Shr_Nfr

What this package has done is to destroy faith in the government.

Great analysis, well said.

66 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:11am

re: #47 albusteve

those dinky little things?...they are pretty tho

This is what I can look at from Golden. (14 thou plus)

Image: Mount_Evans.JPG

Image: mtevans.jpg

Don't trip over your little hills.

67 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:16am

re: #56 SlartyBartfast

That is exactly what is being done today. If I come across a group of Dems and they find out I'm conservative, they automatically assume I am either an evangelical or a Mormon (I live in NE Mesa, AZ). I am not religious at all.

68 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:22am

re: #63 crashdvis

Modeern Whig Party.

Forget the Ds and Rs.

69 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:27am

re: #49 Desert Dog

If the Republicans nominate Jindal, Palin or Huckabee they lose. Reagan was so good because he put up his political beliefs for all to see. He was a Christian, but that was not the first thing you heard from him when he talked about government.

I agree about Huckabee, but not about Palin (who doesn't try to make the state conform to her religion). Jindal is a mostly effective governor who could be an effective national leader if he moved away from creationism and 'non-demon' exorcism and stayed away.

70 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:30am

re: #39 SlartyBartfast

His diametrically opposed / disowned brother, maybe.

71 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:43am

Turkey summons Israeli envoy over IDF officer's criticism

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

He also accused Turkey of repressing its Kurdish minority

18:19 Turkish police use water canons to disperse hundreds of Kurdish protesters (AP)

Talk about making an argument easy?

72 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:52am

re: #50 jcm

That's why I try to judge everything against the core; Life, Liberty, Property. That when society intrudes into those areas does it meet the test that the intrusion benefits the whole of society.

A Christian Constitution does not meet that test.

And this is why I keep asking what is a conservative, what is a RINO? The ideology seems to have gotten lost.

See- I'm a "RINO" because I think we should consider a more effective means of dealing with abortion than calling for a Constitutional ban. But even broaching the topic with a few of my republican friends gets met with name calling and shouting matches. They don't even want to listen to what I'm trying to say.

It's very sad, and hurting our party when we can't reasonably discuss our internal problems.

73 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:52am

re: #49 Desert Dog
With all due respect, I'd exempt Palin from that list and mostly would suggest that it's waaay too soon to predict who will be the Republican nominee. If Obama, a Christian in the Jeremiah Wright tradition, keeps going the way he's going, almost any Republican will win in 2012.

74 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:30:58am

re: #63 crashdvis

This is a major problem for the Republican party. If they keep heading down this path they are going to be a smaller and smaller force in the coming years. We need to separate the religious nuts from the party for it to survive. Sadly, I don't think that is going to happen.

Actually, if someone, ie Michael Steele, could stand up and espouse what we stand for, as noted above by Sharmuta, we can make some headway. But we need a clear voice, along with all of our voices, to be saying the same thing.

75 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:31:00am

re: #61 Ojoe

Right you are, except IMHO with only two parties to chose from, the extremists of left and right each have a home & so contaminate the two parties that reasonable people are left in the cold.

I think we need at least three parties. The number two does not have a center.

That said, check out the Modern Whig Party.

sounds good...except it won't happen in my lifetime...I suspect we have to see is the GOP can be reformed first...not a sure thing at all imo

76 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:31:02am

re: #60 albusteve

Colorado mountains are just to massive and packed together...I like separate ranges like Wyoming and NM...the landscape in NM is unreal amigo...nothing like it anywhere

I have been to your fair state many times and I love it. NM, Colorado, Utah, AZ...all beautiful places.

77 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:31:20am

BBL

78 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:32:19am

Our Constitution was written for all of us to live under, without regard to religious beliefs. The First Ammendment:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Begins with the word CONGRESS. This is on the federal side, not state side of our legal system. If the states still had any rights left to them I could see a state legislative body creating a 'state' religion because it is a state and not on a country wide basis. Would I agree with that? Not at all and if one of the states opted for a state run religion I would fight it tooth and nail. The government should stay out of religion except when the religion acts far outside of the law (i.e. human sacrifice).

We're rapidly losing the right to petition our government for redress of grievances by government agencies becoming harder and harder for citizens to appeal actions taken on the part of those agencies. A good example of this is TSA. Several months ago carrying a tube of toothpaste (exceeding 3.4 oz volume) through a checkpoint would have resulted in the tube being confiscated if caught. Today you risk being fined by TSA for 'artfully concealing' that same tube of toothpaste and if you attempt to appeal the fine, will be slapped with an even higher fine.

79 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:32:28am

re: #57 Shr_Nfr

Oh, wait...are you one of those evil naysayers from "the chattering class?"

//

80 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:32:29am

We're had theocracies before in human history. The current Iranian extremist regime is a theocracy, perhaps the first in the history of Islam. (Traditionally, Islam distinguished between those running the government and those teaching religion.) The Roman Empire adopted Christianity as the state religion when Constantine ascended to power. That changed the nature of the religion, wedding it to those in power for many centuries.

Theocracies are oppressive, because they believe G-d is on their side. For those unfortunate enough not to be true believers, or for those who are dissenters, government becomes the enemy.

It was the genius of the American Founders to separate church and state, welcoming Puritans, Pilgrims, dissenters, Quakers, Catholics, the Amish, and Jews, among others, and ending the bloody religious wars that engulfed Europe. It shocks me that anyone in this country would want a return to religious warfare. May G-d confound them in their misguided schemes!

81 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:32:45am

re: #72 Sharmuta

I spoke with a retired gentleman who's been a life-long republican and he told be that that term was created MUCH longer-ago and definitely was reserved for those types of republicans who are like Huckabee (i.e. those trying to destroy the republic/constitution).

82 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:33:14am

It's sorta silly to have to make the statement, but I guess it had to be made. Sorta like taking every damn statement in the Bible literally as true: 6,000 years.

83 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:33:27am

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

This is what I can look at from Golden. (14 thou plus)

[Link: www.coyle-inspect.com...]

[Link: weknowsnow.com...]

Don't trip over your little hills.

I lived there for 7 yrs...and btw we have several peaks over 13k ft...big whoop eh?...LOOK! there's one!

84 yesandno  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:33:46am

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

I agree about Huckabee, but not about Palin (who doesn't try to make the state conform to her religion). Jindal is a mostly effective governor who could be an effective national leader if he moved away from creationism and 'non-demon' exorcism and stayed away.

Too late for Jindal. If he changed today, the media would bury him in the old news.
Too bad, as he seems to be going a good job.

85 Maximu§  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:33:48am

Every religion has its extremists and Huckabee sounds like one to me...#49 Desert Dog explained it better than I ever could.


Leave the Constitution alone.

86 Render  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:34:01am

Thank you Charles.

===

1978 called, it wants me back.

DRIVEN,
R

87 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:34:40am

re: #81 Dan G.
Huh. I didn't realize that Lincoln was like Huckabee.

88 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:35:02am

re: #49 Desert Dog

If the Republicans nominate Jindal, Palin or Huckabee they lose. Reagan was so good because he put up his political beliefs for all to see. He was a Christian, but that was not the first thing you heard from him when he talked about government.

Down ding and I'll tell you why: Sarah Palin at no time wore her religious beliefs on her sleeve, ala Reagan. Huckabee is a non-starter and as so, not part of the equation. Initially, I liked Jindal, but some of his views have turned me off. Palin is the only one out of the three that will gain traction.

IMHO.

89 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:35:08am

I will admit that the Front Range above Denver is a world class sight to behold...

90 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:35:11am

re: #87 realwest

Uh. What?

91 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:35:19am

re: #73 realwest

With all due respect, I'd exempt Palin from that list and mostly would suggest that it's waaay too soon to predict who will be the Republican nominee. If Obama, a Christian in the Jeremiah Wright tradition, keeps going the way he's going, almost any Republican will win in 2012.

Well, she may be that, but the media has already painted her with that "religious" tag. But, I think her problem is image. For 50% of the people, they love her...the other half is not so excited. She polls with very strong negatives. I think they rolled her out too early. She was not prepared for the onslaught after she got nominated. I think the press treated her way too unfairly, but the damage has already been done. Perhaps she can shape her image over the next 4 years, but my guess is she is done with, as far as national political aspirations. I have known to be wrong though, just ask Mrs. Desert Dog, she keeps a list.

92 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:35:41am

re: #87 realwest

Anachronism

93 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:35:51am

re: #87 realwest

Huh. I didn't realize that Lincoln was like Huckabee.

Well I think they both eat road kill?

94 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:36:46am

re: #81 Dan G.

I spoke with a retired gentleman who's been a life-long republican and he told be that that term was created MUCH longer-ago and definitely was reserved for those types of republicans who are like Huckabee (i.e. those trying to destroy the republic/constitution).

All I can think of at the moment is Goldwater, and how he must be rolling in his grave.

95 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:37:17am

re: #91 Desert Dog

Well, she may be that, but the media has already painted her with that "religious" tag. But, I think her problem is image. For 50% of the people, they love her...the other half is not so excited. She polls with very strong negatives. I think they rolled her out too early. She was not prepared for the onslaught after she got nominated. I think the press treated her way too unfairly, but the damage has already been done. Perhaps she can shape her image over the next 4 years, but my guess is she is done with, as far as national political aspirations. I have known to be wrong though, just ask Mrs. Desert Dog, she keeps a list.

the MSM trashed her...end of story...people really are that stupid

96 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:37:30am

re: #48 Killian Bundy

Spector is a POS. A quisling of the highest order.

97 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:37:34am

re: #78 Perplexed

Our Constitution was written for all of us to live under, without regard to religious beliefs. The First Ammendment:

Begins with the word CONGRESS. This is on the federal side, not state side of our legal system. If the states still had any rights left to them I could see a state legislative body creating a 'state' religion because it is a state and not on a country wide basis. Would I agree with that? Not at all and if one of the states opted for a state run religion I would fight it tooth and nail. The government should stay out of religion except when the religion acts far outside of the law (i.e. human sacrifice).

We're rapidly losing the right to petition our government for redress of grievances by government agencies becoming harder and harder for citizens to appeal actions taken on the part of those agencies. A good example of this is TSA. Several months ago carrying a tube of toothpaste (exceeding 3.4 oz volume) through a checkpoint would have resulted in the tube being confiscated if caught. Today you risk being fined by TSA for 'artfully concealing' that same tube of toothpaste and if you attempt to appeal the fine, will be slapped with an even higher fine.

That's how they do it in Traffic Court around here too: Fight the ticket and lose and the fine goes up. If the ticket was for ignoring railroad warning gate and you lose your license is suspended for six months. My dad has been lucky though: The last two tickets he got, the cop didn't show up in court so the case was dismissed.

98 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:37:57am

Thanks for your efforts Charles, they are well appreciated. I am a liberty and constitution first conservative, but the more power and influence the theocracy crowd gains in the Republican party, the less I will donate, campaign, or support their causes. I'm tired of once Red states now bleeding purple due to their their misaligned pursuit of party dominance through dominionism.

99 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:38:03am
There is absolutely nothing “conservative” about wanting to amend the Constitution of the United States, to make it an explicitly Christian document.

That's right. And Christians should understand that they would be equally outraged if any other religion tried the same thing. We don't need to run God out of the public square, but we cannot and should never force God or religion in areas of government where it is not appropriate.
This is about Freedom.

100 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:38:09am

re: #94 Sharmuta

Yes. This problem is a result of pragmatism; people ignored the ideas of these theocrats and allowed them to infect the party.

101 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:38:43am

In other words, "Lighten up, Francis."

102 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:38:56am

re: #72 Sharmuta

And this is why I keep asking what is a conservative, what is a RINO? The ideology seems to have gotten lost.

See- I'm a "RINO" because I think we should consider a more effective means of dealing with abortion than calling for a Constitutional ban. But even broaching the topic with a few of my republican friends gets met with name calling and shouting matches. They don't even want to listen to what I'm trying to say.

It's very sad, and hurting our party when we can't reasonably discuss our internal problems.

That's why I bring up the core. To me the abortion debate is a losing one. I think we can when the conservative argument o personal responsibility. Abortion except for rape and incest is avoiding the consequences of choices made. That's where I think conservatives and conservative values can make headway.

103 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:39:19am

re: #88 tommygum

Ronald Reagan was a Presbyterian who faithfully attended church. His belief in human freedom and dignity (conservative Presbyterianism without the creationist claptrap) informed his politics, but he understood the appropriate boundaries between the two. Reagan was a great American, a great man of faith, and the greatest President of the Twentieth Century.

104 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:39:27am

re: #95 albusteve

the MSM trashed her...end of story...people really are that stupid

Hell they are still trashing her.

105 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:39:28am

re: #89 albusteve

I will admit that the Front Range above Denver is a world class sight to behold...

This is beyond the front range. Lots of nice photos of the CO Rocky Mountains in winter:
[Link: www.14ers.com...]

106 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:40:36am

re: #89 albusteve

I will admit that the Front Range above Denver is a world class sight to behold...

Thank you.

107 RubyTuesday  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:40:55am

re: #56 SlartyBartfast

The media promotes that connection in this way:

Conservative = Religious.
Religious = Backward, a Nutcase.
Ergo, Conservative = Backward Nutcase.

It's not just in the media...I have felt this way after reading posts right here. I, like tommygum, avoid most of the ID threads. Not all "social conservatives" i.e. "pesky Christians" have the same beliefs. I take literally the creation chapters of Genesis, but I believe within species there has been much evolution through many many years. I love the study of science - when seeing pictures from the Hubble or the latest discoveries via powerful electron microscopes, my first reaction is "Wow! Look what God has done!" God is science too. He created it, He uses it. And He'll explain it all at a big day in the future. That's Ruby's 2 cents.

108 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:41:36am

re: #90 Dan G.
Well you said "he told be that that term was created MUCH longer-ago and definitely was reserved for those types of republicans who are like Huckabee (i.e. those trying to destroy the republic/constitution)."
And since Lincoln is the longest ago Republican I could think of, I just sorta threw his name out there.
The first Republican THIS old man can recall was Nelson Rockefeller (lived in NYS at the time) and then Barry Goldwater. The schism in the Republican party at that time was between Nelson on one hand ("Liberal" and pro big government) and Barry ("Conservative" and anti-big government) and frankly I don't remember religion being involved in that debate as to which direction the Republican Party should go).

109 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:41:42am

re: #84 yesandno

Too late for Jindal. If he changed today, the media would bury him in the old news.
Too bad, as he seems to be going a good job.

I don't necessarily agree. It is possible for him to make a comeback. One thing I'd advise him to do would be to start putting some visible, publicized, effort into New Orleans. It may amount to money down a rat hole, but it would draw a contrast between him and the GOP media image, and it might give him the ability to talk to urban voters and make inroads on the Dems. If he could do that last, he'd become a very good candidate.

110 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:42:09am

To all the creationists frustrated and mystified as to why Charles often posts about evolution on LGF:

You have to understand that outside of your own circle of friends/co-believers/whatever, creationism is regarded as a hoax. A dangerous fraud. And that evolution-through-natural-selection is universally accepted by just about every legitimate scientist on Earth. And that, outside of a certain segment of the populations of the U.S., Turkey, and a very few other countries, creationism doesn't even really exist as a belief system or scientific "alternative." Which is as it should be, because creationism has nothing to do with science.

As a result, any American politician who believes in creationism is deservedly a laughingstock to "regular" people. And any politician who tries to force creationism on our children is more than a laughingstock: he's a public menace.

Every single Republican politician -- whether it be a local school board member or a state government or a candidate for President -- who promotes creationism is utterly discrediting the Republican Party. You want to know why moonbats laugh at conservatives and feel smug in their superiority? This is why. The creationists on the conservative side are as embarrassing and ruinous as the Truthers on the Left.

If the conservative movement in general and the Republican Party in particular does not put an end to the madness, they are destined for the dustbin of history. And deservedly so.

Charles is one of the few people on the "neocon" side trying to draw a line in the sand and say: I will not be tarred by association with these buffoons. Enough already.

And for that we should be thankful to Charles, not dismissive of him. Even if you believe in creationism, you should be grateful that Charles is trying to restore some credibility to the conservative movement.

111 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:42:43am

CO. mountains


[Link: www.tripadvisor.com...]

112 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:42:51am

re: #107 RubyTuesday

The media promotes that connection in this way:

Conservative = Religious.
Religious = Backward, a Nutcase.
Ergo, Conservative = Backward Nutcase.

It's not just in the media...I have felt this way after reading posts right here. I, like tommygum, avoid most of the ID threads. Not all "social conservatives" i.e. "pesky Christians" have the same beliefs. I take literally the creation chapters of Genesis, but I believe within species there has been much evolution through many many years. I love the study of science - when seeing pictures from the Hubble or the latest discoveries via powerful electron microscopes, my first reaction is "Wow! Look what God has done!" God is science too. He created it, He uses it. And He'll explain it all at a big day in the future. That's Ruby's 2 cents.

So, you are saying that all species were firstly created, as in Genesis and they evolved from that point?

113 Cato the Elder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:42:52am

re: #28 Dan G.

Fairly big fan, at least of the Firefly series.

Me too. Must have watched it a dozen times. Browncoats rule!

114 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:43:09am

re: #58 Naso Tang

Why do you avoid them? Just curious.

They seem to be too contentious. Overly opinionated full-throated and, frankly, of little interest to me. I am a practicing Catholic, but I balance the whole thing out in my mind.

115 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:43:33am

re: #80 quickjustice

The Roman Empire adopted Christianity as the state religion when Constantine ascended to power. That changed the nature of the religion, wedding it to those in power for many centuries.

Er, a few years after he took power, I believe.

And if anything, it reversed the traditional relationships, since the old, pagan Caesers were themselves considered gods. Christianity followed Judiasm and put the people in power under higher obligations, the same as every citizen.

Actually, even Islam claims this.

The real issue is whether the civil authority takes it upon itself to enforce religious doctrine.

116 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:43:35am

or a state government = or a state governor

PIMF

117 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:44:19am

re: #102 jcm

We have liberals who call themselves Republicans and we have ultra right wingers who call themselves Republicans. Republicans, as a whole, make a mistake in becoming democrats lite. Why vote for a Republican when you can have everything you've ever wanted while voting a straight democrat ticket?

Now the democrats have sold the country down the river and the next several generations will live under debt so staggering that it borders on unbelievable. Obama's praetorian guard aka civilian defense force hasn't been fielded yet. That one, when formed and activated will pretty much seal his reign for life.

118 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:44:30am

re: #105 FrogMarch

This is beyond the front range. Lots of nice photos of the CO Rocky Mountains in winter:
[Link: www.14ers.com...]

lotta good stuff there...thanks

119 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:44:55am

I don't care if someone wants to worship a rock. Just don't try and make public policy with the beliefs or muck with the constitution.

120 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:45:05am

re: #102 jcm

That's why I bring up the core. To me the abortion debate is a losing one. I think we can when the conservative argument o personal responsibility. Abortion except for rape and incest is avoiding the consequences of choices made. That's where I think conservatives and conservative values can make headway.

For me, it's just an unrealistic position, because it's unobtainable. If you look at the requirements to get an Amendment passed, we will never achieve the numbers needed. But other republicans then tell me it's in the platform as a token of our commitment to life. If it's just a token gesture then, isn't that a bit of a slap in the face to the sanctity of life they claim they're supporting? They don't want to hear it. They'd rather call me names instead of looking at real solutions that have lowered the abortion rate. Solutions like what Rudy Giuliani achieved in New York City. But see- he's a RINO too. Bastards! He could have convinced the middle, I knew liberals who said they would have voted for him, they liked him. He could have won. But instead, he'll never stand a chance because "conservatives" think he's the RINO.

121 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:45:36am

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

Thanks, Walter. That's a future screensaver.

122 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:45:41am

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

I don't necessarily agree. It is possible for him to make a comeback. One thing I'd advise him to do would be to start putting some visible, publicized, effort into New Orleans. It may amount to money down a rat hole, but it would draw a contrast between him and the GOP media image, and it might give him the ability to talk to urban voters and make inroads on the Dems. If he could do that last, he'd become a very good candidate.

I like Jindal's way of governing, but he has said somethings that will make him unelectable. If he was a Democrat, he could just pretend he never said it, but since he is a Republican, the MSM will drag out every tape and story about ID and Exorisism that mentions Jindal if he get nominated. They will trash him like the did Palin. That double standard that makes it hard to find good conservative leaders...

123 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:45:55am

re: #110 zombie

zombie, if I may add.

Charles has been very clear in distinguishing between creationism as faith. And creationism as a political agenda.

124 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:46:05am

I typically stay away from this subject because there's already a big crowd fighting the fight. But what frustrates me is the waste of time and $ that seems inevitably heading toward Huckabee's 2012 presidential campaign. He is clearly unelectable, but a sizable percentage of what the media will label "evangelical, hard-line conservatives" will support him regardless.

Science = finding the cure for cancer damn it!

125 formercorpsman  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:46:33am

re: #72 Sharmuta

How do you propose to reconcile with that part of the base who feels it is murder?

126 kansas  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:46:41am

Mike Huckabee...thanks for Obama. Now could you please go away?

127 DeliLama  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:46:55am

It's frightening how many people really don't understand science at all.

128 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:47:23am
129 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:47:23am
A true conservative respects and honors the US Constitution. He/she does not try to enshrine his/her own religious beliefs as the law of the land.

Eggsactly. I was actually shocked (very rare) when I heard about this. From the time I was a child, I was in awe of the Founding Fathers for their prescience and thrilled that "we the people" had learned from them this very basic element of our success.

130 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:47:37am

re: #127 DeliLama

It's frightening how many people really don't understand science at all.

And how many like it that way.

131 theheat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:47:56am

re: #52 rightymouse

He has mega "ick factor". He's icky. You can't always put your finger on the single point that tips the scales, but he's icky. Sometimes the best indicator of icky is what they make your stomach feel like i.e. a gut feeling.

/no, not very scientific, but true

132 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:48:28am

re: #107 RubyTuesday

Are you saying that Earth was created 6,013 years ago, and that it was created in 6 days, and that the creatures of the earth were created on (I forget) the 3 rd day, and that they've evolved from that point?

I'm sorry, I can't live with that. But that's not the problem. I can't live with this being suggested as an alternate 'theory' to Darwinism taught in schools. Or any derivitave of that: God 'tweaked' evolution here and there to help move it along. There's no proof of that, only faith that it happened.

If you want to tell me that God created the Big Band, me, being an atheist, can accept that as well and merely disagree with you.

133 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:48:34am

re: #124 rwmofo

I typically stay away from this subject because there's already a big crowd fighting the fight. But what frustrates me is the waste of time and $ that seems inevitably heading toward Huckabee's 2012 presidential campaign. He is clearly unelectable, but a sizable percentage of what the media will label "evangelical, hard-line conservatives" will support him regardless.

Science = finding the cure for cancer damn it!

Sorry, but as a cancer survivor (surgery & loss of kidney) an inexpensive cancer cure doesn't stand a chance to surface. Too much money in treating cancer and as such the cure would have to come from a very small, independent laboratory.

134 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:48:46am

re: #107 RubyTuesday

I'm not a Biblical literalist. I enjoy the Bible immensely. Religion and science are like two different windows on the natural universe. Each lends perspectives the other cannot. I value both perspectives. Anyone who says one perspective is worthless or atheistic because it doesn't conform to the other perspective is ignorant at best, a bigot at worst.

That said, it's important to keep the perspectives separate. Their separateness is what prevents the distortion that is creationism and modern ID.

135 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:49:14am

re: #123 jcm

zombie, if I may add.

Charles has been very clear in distinguishing between creationism as faith. And creationism as a political agenda.

over and over his detractors ignore this...they have become zealots and that right there turns me off bigtime

136 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:49:48am

re: #110 zombie

A gabillion updings...

137 RubyTuesday  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:50:03am

re: #128 Katt

Katt, after that very brave stand, I will feel much more comfortable here if you get to stay.

138 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:50:27am

re: #84 yesandno

Too late for Jindal. If he changed today, the media would bury him in the old news.
Too bad, as he seems to be going a good job.

Upding and spot on.

139 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:50:27am

re: #128 Katt

The money for Discovery Institute comes from groups holding these beliefs, do you support them?


Rushdoony's Institutes of Biblical Law consciously echoes a major work of the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. In fact, Reconstructionists see themselves as the theological and political heirs of Calvin. The theocracy Calvin created in Geneva, Switzerland in the 1500s is one of the political models Reconstructionists look to, along with Old Testament Israel and the Calvinist Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

Capital Punishment
Epitomizing the Reconstructionist idea of Biblical "warfare" is the centrality of capital punishment under Biblical Law. Doctrinal leaders (notably Rushdoony, North, and Bahnsen) call for the death penalty for a wide range of crimes in addition to such contemporary capital crimes as rape, kidnapping, and murder. Death is also the punishment for apostasy (abandonment of the faith), heresy, blasphemy, witchcraft, astrology, adultery, "sodomy or homosexuality," incest, striking a parent, incorrigible juvenile delinquency, and, in the case of women, "unchastity before marriage."
According to Gary North, women who have abortions should be publicly executed, "along with those who advised them to abort their children." Rushdoony concludes: "God's government prevails, and His alternatives are clear-cut: either men and nations obey His laws, or God invokes the death penalty against them." Reconstructionists insist that "the death penalty is the maximum, not necessarily the mandatory penalty." However, such judgments may depend less on Biblical Principles than on which faction gains power in the theocratic republic. The potential for bloodthirsty episodes on the order of the Salem witchcraft trials or the Spanish Inquisition is inadvertently revealed by Reconstructionist theologian Rev. Ray Sutton, who claims that the Reconstructed Biblical theocracies would be "happy" places, to which people would flock because "capital punishment is one of the best evangelistic tools of a society."

The Biblically approved methods of execution include burning (at the stake for example), stoning, hanging, and "the sword." Gary North, the self-described economist of Reconstructionism, prefers stoning because, among other things, stones are cheap, plentiful, and convenient. Punishments for non-capital crimes generally involve whipping, restitution in the form of indentured servitude, or slavery. Prisons would likely be only temporary holding tanks, prior to imposition of the actual sentence.

People who sympathize with Reconstructionism often flee the label because of the severe and unpopular nature of such views. Even those who feel it appropriate that they would be the governors of God's theocracy often waffle on the particulars, like capital punishment for sinners and nonbelievers. Unflinching advocates, however, insist upon consistency. Rev. Greg Bahnsen, in his book By This Standard, writes: "We. . .endorse the justice of God's penal code, if the Bible is to be the foundation of our Christian political ethic."

140 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:50:39am

I love the way post Katt's post (#128) followed DeliLama's (#127).
Perfect!

141 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:50:45am

What do we do with such organizations as the Family Research Council?

142 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:51:36am

re: #118 albusteve

lotta good stuff there...thanks


My pleasure.
I especially like this one. Makes me dizzy.

I've climbed to the top of this one in the summer.

the bells (the most photographed set of mountains in the state)

143 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:51:42am

re: #122 Desert Dog

I like Jindal's way of governing, but he has said somethings that will make him unelectable. If he was a Democrat, he could just pretend he never said it, but since he is a Republican, the MSM will drag out every tape and story about ID and Exorisism that mentions Jindal if he get nominated. They will trash him like the did Palin. That double standard that makes it hard to find good conservative leaders...

The solution to that is prepare your defense in advance. Have leaders read to talk about how you've changed, throw couple a former friends under the bus in the months leading up to your becoming a serious contender. And most importantly: Do not accept public financing and make sure you have lots of donors lined up. You'll need paid media, have the money to pay for it.

144 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:51:43am

re: #136 rightymouse

A gabillion updings...

I think it's almost there.

145 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:51:52am

OT:
Have you listened to Clinton's speech re her China trip? She spends more time talking about *greenhouse gases* than just about anything else.
Also, the Obama idea of *clean fuel* means NOT oil and NOT coal. Makes me sick.
Clinton speech video embedded in story

146 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:51:58am

re: #84 yesandno

Too late for Jindal. If he changed today, the media would bury him in the old news.
Too bad, as he seems to be going a good job.

What exactly is he doing that you would characterize as a "good job"?

Genuinely curious. I live here, and apart from swift reaction after Gustav last year, I have no clue what it is he is doing or has done. I have seen nothing tangible. Other than his signing of a bill that would allow creationism to be taught in schools.

The whole "ethics" thing - it produced a good show.

147 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:52:08am

#128: take your insults and support for theocracy elsewhere. And you don't get to post your dramatic goodbye message.

148 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:52:11am

re: #134 quickjustice

As an atheist, amen!

149 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:52:19am

re: #132 BigPapa

If you want to tell me that God created the Big Band, me, being an atheist, can accept that as well and merely disagree with you.

Insert snarky comment at Big Band typo here. :D

150 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:52:20am

re: #115 itellu3times

Fair point.

151 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:53:09am

re: #133 Perplexed

Sorry, but as a cancer survivor (surgery & loss of kidney) an inexpensive cancer cure doesn't stand a chance to surface. Too much money in treating cancer and as such the cure would have to come from a very small, independent laboratory.

You're missing my point. I'm simply saying that the cure for cancer will--hopefully--be found by scientists. I watched one of my brothers then my Dad take several months to die.

Further, as a Christian, I feel that creationism doesn't belong in a science class. I was simply making the distinction between the two.

152 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:53:11am

re: #137 RubyTuesday

Katt, after that very brave stand, I will feel much more comfortable here if you get to stay.

Too bad for you, then. Katt got the gate. Looks like our first creationist meltdown today.

153 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:53:15am

re: #132 BigPapa

Are you saying that Earth was created 6,013 years ago, and that it was created in 6 days, and that the creatures of the earth were created on (I forget) the 3 rd day, and that they've evolved from that point?

I'm sorry, I can't live with that. But that's not the problem. I can't live with this being suggested as an alternate 'theory' to Darwinism taught in schools. Or any derivitave of that: God 'tweaked' evolution here and there to help move it along. There's no proof of that, only faith that it happened.

If you want to tell me that God created the Big Band, me, being an atheist, can accept that as well and merely disagree with you.


154 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:53:15am

re: #113 Cato the Elder

The scene where Mal kicks the threatening bad guy into the engine... priceless.

155 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:54:05am

re: #126 kansas
Ah, mind you I can't stand Huckabee - in any way, shape or form. But he didn't make Obama President.
The American Voters did, and by quite a margin at that, because of a number of reasons, the economy, the war in Iraq, etc etc. I can't think of ANY Republican who could have won the Presidential election, including my favortie, Rudy. It's cerainly true that if Huckabee had stayed home and actually,you know learned how to play the bass, we might have had a stronger candidate than McCain. But Rudy clearly didn't campaign very hard and Romney was a Mormon - and while that didn't matter to a lot of us Republicans, the MSM made a huge deal out of it and would have slaughtered Romney with his Mormon beliefs.
And it's genuinely sad. I honestly thought this country was past the personal religious beliefs of the President when we elected John F. Kennedy.
Apparently not.

156 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:54:08am

Hear Hear =)

157 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:54:14am

re: #142 FrogMarch

My pleasure.
I especially like this one. Makes me dizzy.

I've climbed to the top of this one in the summer.

the bells (the most photographed set of mountains in the state)

in all of Co my one or two favorite drives is up from Cortez to Telluride...a classic imo...the goggle pic is pretty cool

158 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:54:17am

re: #131 theheat

He has mega "ick factor". He's icky. You can't always put your finger on the single point that tips the scales, but he's icky. Sometimes the best indicator of icky is what they make your stomach feel like i.e. a gut feeling.

/no, not very scientific, but true

I have a BS meter that's pretty reliable. Also the Icky Gut Factor radar. Both were going full tilt whenever I listened to him talk. Now he's gone off the deep end and why am I not surprised?

159 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:54:24am

re: #146 reine.de.tout

What exactly is he doing that you would characterize as a "good job"?

Genuinely curious. I live here, and apart from swift reaction after Gustav last year, I have no clue what it is he is doing or has done. I have seen nothing tangible. Other than his signing of a bill that would allow creationism to be taught in schools.

The whole "ethics" thing - it produced a good show.

There's even worse stuff waiting to be used by the Democrats against Bobby Jindal. He hangs out with people who are on the outer edges of fundamentalist Christianity, and at least one person who associates with outright neo-Nazis: Bobby Jindal's Creationism and Alliance with David Barton.

Who is David Barton?

In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters' Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist "Christian Identity" theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the "true" chosen people of the Bible and charge that today's Jews are usurpers. Aside from being a virulent anti-Semite, Peters has advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. According to the Anti-Defamation League, other speakers at the event included white supremacist leader and 1992 presidential candidate James "Bo" Gritz, a leader of the radical and increasingly violent militia movement, and Malcolm Ross, a Holocaust denier from Canada. In November of that same year, Barton spoke at Kingdom Covenant College in Grants Pass, Oregon, another "Christian Identity" front group with ties to Peters.4

Asked to explain these actions, Barton's reply amounted to a not very creative "I didn't know they were Nazis" dodge. In a July 1993 letter, Barton assistant Kit Marshall wrote, "At the time we were contacted by Pete Peters, we had absolutely no idea that he was 'part of the Nazi movement.' He contacted us for David to speak for Scriptures for America. The title is quite innocuous. In all the conversations that I personally had with Pete Peters, never once was there a hint that they were part of a Nazi movement. I would also like to point out that simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs."5 An excuse like that might have washed one time, but it stretches the bounds of credulity to accept that Barton was twice duped by innocuous-sounding extremist organizations.

160 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:55:10am

re: #149 Cattt

Whoopsy! LOL.

161 imtoast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:55:27am

My only comment is I do not want the Constitution touched by either Darwanists or creationists. Other than that, I have nothing to say on this matter, except, could we get another thread up so those who don't want to read about D vs C can read it. Thanks Charles, you do wonderful work but I am so tired of having to go to pogo.com when I could be reading LGF instead.

162 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:55:46am

#69 Dark Falcon

re: #49 Desert Dog

If the Republicans nominate Jindal, Palin or Huckabee they lose. Reagan was so good because he put up his political beliefs for all to see. He was a Christian, but that was not the first thing you heard from him when he talked about government.

I agree about Huckabee, but not about Palin (who doesn't try to make the state conform to her religion). Jindal is a mostly effective governor who could be an effective national leader if he moved away from creationism and 'non-demon' exorcism and stayed away.

I agree with you about Palin. Hope we see her again out there.

Speaking as a devout Christian and as a conservative - not to be confused with the "religious right" - it is unfortunate and sad that Huckabee, Jindal, et al do a tremendous disservice to our country when they mingle politics with their own personal religious beliefs.

Never in my life would I have ever dreamed there would come a day when being called a creationist would be an epithet. Those who advocate and support the DI and their Wedge Document are bringing it not only upon themselves but upon the rest of us who staunchly believe religious faith (and my right to believe in a Creator of the universe) should not be included in science class or public school textbooks.

It's become more than a slippery slope. It's divisive, destructive and opens the door to every other religion on the planet who wants their faith included as science.

163 RubyTuesday  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:56:04am

re: #132 BigPapa

NO I'm not saying that. See? This is where the battle always begins. The study of evolution doesn't begin at creation, from what I've been told. It doesn't explain HOW things got here, just what has gone on afterwards. I am NOT a new earth creationist, or whatever the new catch label is. I simply believe God created each species. (How long is a "day"? That's up to God, He created time as well. To me, it's merely a point for those who love debate to use as a hammer.) Arguing over this as a matter of religion takes one's eyes off of the Creator. Arguing over this as a matter of politics takes one's eye off the enormous problems we are encountering today. Charles has every right to celebrate Darwin's birthday, just as Christians have every right to Christmas. God will judge, not I or any other man.

164 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:56:15am

re: #125 formercorpsman

How do you propose to reconcile with that part of the base who feels it is murder?

It fascinating there are conservatives who say they support less intrusive government... except when it comes to their pet social issue. A ban would be bigger government, not less. Want to stop abortions? Do it locally. Support groups giving mothers ultrasounds, and helping to improve adoption laws. It's more effective than a token gesture.

165 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:56:59am

Ode to Katt

A Katt
Who inserts foot
in a mouth wide open
Is not thinkin'
He's just hopin'


Burma-Shave

166 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:57:08am

re: #146 reine.de.tout

Its marketing... the Jindal-wing have excelled at it.

167 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:57:25am

re: #151 rwmofo

Sorry, I clued in on the cancer bit. Sorry about the loss of your brother and father to that disease. If I had an unlimited research budget I would start two separate laboratories. One to completely figure out how a normal cell functions and the other to determine how a cancer cell functions then sit down to determine the differences between those two. Once that was done go on to determine what would kill cancer and leave the rest of the body alone.

168 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:57:28am

re: #161 imtoast

I think Charles can post what he wants.

169 mardukhai  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:57:39am

I watched the National Geographic programs on Darwin. Really fascinating -- I had no idea that the five weeks in the Galapagos were less important to Darwin than the months spent in the Pampas and the Andes.

BUT, it was also Lincoln's 200th.

People forgot.

170 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:57:55am

re: #161 imtoast

How are those who believe in Evolution trying to change the Constitution?

171 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:57:59am

re: #139 Thanos

This reminds me of the time I was cornered by a Scientologist at a cocktail party in Manhattan. This stuff is wacky!

172 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:58:05am

re: #124 rwmofo

...Do you think he will get out of the primaries? I am not going to vote for him if he runs. I would think that the FOX TV show with his awful band playing "the Little Rockers" is enough make any candidate a laughing stock. Overall, he is a nice person. i like what he has done for the African Americans in Arkansas. He has been especially prudent about championing the legacy of civil right. I don't agree with his stance on religion.

173 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:58:36am

re: #161 imtoast

Please get your own blog so we can come over and tell you what to post.

174 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:59:10am

re: #159 Charles

simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs

You cannot separate White Supremacists from White Supremacy.

175 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:59:32am

re: #153 MandyManners

Geepers, Mandy...I didn't see that one coming! Knock me over with a feather...

:)

176 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:59:34am

re: #173 Sharmuta

I think its a sock puppet; consider the name. Martyr-esque.

177 fish  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:00:06am

1) Charles I agree with everything you said, any effort to ammend the constitution in the mode of any religion should be halted.

2) As someone who believes in Creation by Evolution, I often find the discussions here on the topic very over the top (On BOTH Sides of the issue) This has nothing to do with Charles or even the debate itself, but the attitudes of posters.

3) I applaud the Darwin day topics. He was a great thinker and his ideas and theories have changed the way we look at the universe.

4) While I admit that the "Acedemic Freedom Bills" are being sponsored by lunatics with an agenda, I like the idea of these bills. A scientist and Science students should be encouraged to question the accepted standards without fear of punishment because that question or answer sounds somewhat like what might be found in a religous text. I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

178 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:00:38am

re: #161 imtoast

Chil.

179 RubyTuesday  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:00:54am

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

I truly hope I'm not next - I like being here, mostly in order learn. Katt WAS brave, and I'm sorry to see it go. I'm not a debater, which is why I usually stay off the ID threads. I totally forgot, in my first thread, to say I think the Constitution should be left alone. This country was founded, in part, to give man freedom to believe in what he wanted. I totally concur.

180 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:00:55am

re: #159 Charles

Oh, good grief!

Against the warnings of friends of mine who worked for him and had first-hand experience with him while he was head of the La. Dept of Health & Hospitals, I voted for him. And I've been extremely disappointed - he talks big, but produces not much, and now this!

I should have had more trust in my buddies . . .

181 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:01:17am

re: #114 tommygum

They seem to be too contentious. Overly opinionated full-throated and, frankly, of little interest to me. I am a practicing Catholic, but I balance the whole thing out in my mind.

Sometimes contentious to be sure, but as zombie pointed out above it is of considerable significance not only to those who want to call themselves conservatives and secularists (with or without religion), but also to the left who gain many of those in the middle because of so many "preachers" in the Republican party.

Then there is the simple fact that I would not want my children educated by fools and charlatans.

This is not a forum to avoid sensitive issue, and there is no balance in avoidance.

182 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:01:21am

re: #173 Sharmuta

Please get your own blog so we can come over and tell you what to post.

For F--k's sakes, these people act like Charles exists for their own personal enjoyment.
The guy spends 7 days a week providing a great blog, and all they do is freaking bitch, piss and moan about the content.

Gawd!

183 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:01:30am

re: #163 RubyTuesday

I thought you said that you literally believed in Genesis, so I trying to clarify. I'm not trying to get in a war or battle with, or 'force' Darwinism on you. You don't have to accept it. But I don't want creationism or ID taught in schools as alternative theories to Darwinism. Is there anything we can agree on within that context?

184 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:01:38am

re: #159 Charles

I hope the Republican party isn't going to hang their hat on Bobby Jindal. Those connections will sink him.
(and I can forgive some of the quirky stuff - but that connection is insane)
OF course Obama's Rev Wright connections should have sunk him, but we all know why they didn't.

185 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:01:47am

re: #173 Sharmuta

Sharmuta!

MandyManners!

Happy V-day!

186 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:02am

re: #161 imtoast

My only comment is I do not want the Constitution touched by either Darwanists or creationists. Other than that, I have nothing to say on this matter, except, could we get another thread up so those who don't want to read about D vs C can read it. Thanks Charles, you do wonderful work but I am so tired of having to go to pogo.com when I could be reading LGF instead.

Think of this as your friendly neighborhood bar. The proprietor, Charles, get's to choose what's on the TV. If you don't like the program, go to a corner away from the TV (another thread) and chat with a few folks there. Or if the atmosphere in the bar doesn't suit you, there's another one down the street.

187 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:04am

re: #166 Dan G.

Its marketing... the Jindal-wing have excelled at it.

yes, and that's part of what I was trying to point out.

I keep hearing "he's doing a great job", but I have not seen it.
And I voted for him, it's not as if I was anti-Jindal to begin with. Just a very disappointed former fan . . .

188 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:08am

re: #177 fish

I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

I don't think there is any evidence that these kinds of questions aren't allowed.

189 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:09am

re: #163 RubyTuesday

NO I'm not saying that. See? This is where the battle always begins. The study of evolution doesn't begin at creation, from what I've been told. It doesn't explain HOW things got here, just what has gone on afterwards. I am NOT a new earth creationist, or whatever the new catch label is. I simply believe God created each species. (How long is a "day"? That's up to God, He created time as well. To me, it's merely a point for those who love debate to use as a hammer.) Arguing over this as a matter of religion takes one's eyes off of the Creator. Arguing over this as a matter of politics takes one's eye off the enormous problems we are encountering today. Charles has every right to celebrate Darwin's birthday, just as Christians have every right to Christmas. God will judge, not I or any other man.

Well and honorably said, Ruby. Upding.

190 BigAl  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:13am

Charles, I regret and apologize for any 'hate mail' that may have come from folks of my faith. I agree wholeheartedly that theology and science
should not be, and cannot be, reconciled in the same curricula.

Pope Benedict XVI speaks for me:

"Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called "creationism" and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives: those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because, on the one hand, there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such. But on the other, the doctrine of evolution does not answer every query, especially the great philosophical question: where does everything come from? And how did everything start which ultimately led to man? I believe this is of the utmost importance."

191 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:20am

re: #167 Perplexed

Sorry, I clued in on the cancer bit. Sorry about the loss of your brother and father to that disease. If I had an unlimited research budget I would start two separate laboratories. One to completely figure out how a normal cell functions and the other to determine how a cancer cell functions then sit down to determine the differences between those two. Once that was done go on to determine what would kill cancer and leave the rest of the body alone.

It looks like we have common goals. Hopefully you've beaten it. Good luck.

192 imtoast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:21am

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

I think Charles can post what he wants.

Shut up Walter. I know that Charles can post whatever he wants. I also know that he is great enough to post two different threads because he is aware of how contentious D/C is. You really get on my nerves sometimes.

193 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:02:32am

re: #171 quickjustice

This reminds me of the time I was cornered by a Scientologist at a cocktail party in Manhattan. This stuff is wacky!

Scientologists and Moonies are lightweights beside these evil people, they are in essence religious nazis. Note how they so easily trample on almost every Individual Right in the Bill of Rights.

Free speech? Not if you are an "blasphemer," death instead.
Freedom of Religion, no, death unless it's ours
etc. etc.

194 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:03:12am

I'm loving Darwinian natural selection theories demonstrated by that intelligent design specimen, the Californian Palestinian mother of Octuplets!

Wow, has that woman figured out how to survive amongst the fittest, by exploiting her ecological niche's loopholes--created by liberals for losers.

Thank you Californian liberals and extremists, for enabling the lowest life forms such as rotten Nadia Suleyman to RIP OFF the best country on the planet, while liberals look the other way.

195 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:03:15am

re: #174 MandyManners

You cannot separate White Supremacists from White Supremacy.

And there are a lot of little pockets of that thinking across the US. The Worldwide Church of God, Armstrong's group, started as a "covenant" group, which means they believe that the promises given to the Jews now belong to whites, mainly through the British.

It's the same doctrine driving the KKK and most of the more blatant White Supremacist groups.

So, one has to be careful. If a group has any doctrine that the Jews are basically out of the picture in regards to g-d promises to them, then they are exposing a "identity" and "covenant" theology and they should be avoided.

196 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:03:17am

re: #177 fish

Be free to ask the difficult questions without repercussions? Great idea. I thought that's what schools were for in the first place.

Where do we come from?
Where are we going?

197 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:03:27am

The republicans need to focus on being fiscal conservatives, and leave God out of the party platform altogether.

198 theheat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:03:29am

re: #128 Katt

Then stop imposing Darwinocracy on your readers.

Again, Rule Number 1: Don't shit on your host's porch.

It isn't Darwincy, it's science. How can anyone revealing the truths of science be forcing a religion? Science is not a religion. Science is science. To deny science because of religious beliefs is another matter.

Did I read that wrong, or do you feel like science is beating you black and blue, and has no place in the education system? Your post seems conflicted. That, or I'm dyslexic.

199 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:15am

re: #185 Afrocity

Sharmuta!

MandyManners!

Happy V-day!

Happy Valentine's Day to you, too!

200 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:18am

re: #177 fish

4) While I admit that the "Acedemic Freedom Bills" are being sponsored by lunatics with an agenda, I like the idea of these bills. A scientist and Science students should be encouraged to question the accepted standards without fear of punishment because that question or answer sounds somewhat like what might be found in a religous text. I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

Please. Get a grip. Students already have the perfect right to ask those questions, and they won't be persecuted for it by any decent science teacher.

That right is not in danger, and the "academic freedom" bills are NOT intended to protect it. They have only one purpose - to sneak the teaching of creationism into public school science classes.

201 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:19am

re: #161 imtoast

Little imtoastbaseballs? Little imtoastcueballs? Do tell!

202 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:27am

re: #179 RubyTuesday

I truly hope I'm not next - I like being here, mostly in order learn. Katt WAS brave, and I'm sorry to see it go. I'm not a debater, which is why I usually stay off the ID threads. I totally forgot, in my first thread, to say I think the Constitution should be left alone. This country was founded, in part, to give man freedom to believe in what he wanted. I totally concur.

You don't need to worry. You speak respectfully and civilly, and you don't advocate violence or coercion. You'll do fine here.

203 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:29am

re: #177 fish

Students are currently not punished or prevented from asking such questions; that is a strawman (maybe not yours, but it is). These "Academic Freedom" bills are there to allow teachers to teach non-science in a science class without reprimand. This is not the same as critically evaluating evolution; this is a marketing lie forwarded by the DI'ers.

204 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:32am

re: #182 Shug

That's just become my standard response now to people bitching about content.

And indeed- they do seem to think it's Charles' job to cater to them. There are spinoff links- each with comment ability. They are there own threads, and people are free to comment on a wide variety of other topics besides the articles Charles posts. That the spinoff threads are not more widely used by people is just amazing to me.

205 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:34am

re: #159 Charles

Yee gods.

What I wonder is, how many (and which) of the Republicans in positions of power actually buy this stuff, and which just think they can play footsie with the Constitution to garner the evangelistic or fundamentalist Christian vote?

206 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:49am

re: #177 fish

I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

These are good questions. They have good answers. Nobody in a biology class teaching evolution should be criticized for asking, in fact, one would hope that such basic questions are answered in the most introductory texts.

207 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:51am

re: #179 RubyTuesday

I truly hope I'm not next - I like being here, mostly in order learn. Katt WAS brave, and I'm sorry to see it go. I'm not a debater, which is why I usually stay off the ID threads. I totally forgot, in my first thread, to say I think the Constitution should be left alone. This country was founded, in part, to give man freedom to believe in what he wanted. I totally concur.

Katt was insulting. Apparently you didn't even notice that part.

208 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:04:58am

re: #185 Afrocity

Thanks- you too, Darlin'!

209 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:05:02am

re: #177 fish

Questions from students are allowed. However the answer in science class is not "and a miracle happened."

What's worse is trying to change "and a miracle happened" into science and require it as part of the science curriculum.

210 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:05:12am

re: #194 alegrias

I'm loving Darwinian natural selection theories demonstrated by that intelligent design specimen, the Californian Palestinian mother of Octuplets!

Wow, has that woman figured out how to survive amongst the fittest, by exploiting her ecological niche's loopholes--created by liberals for losers.

Thank you Californian liberals and extremists, for enabling the lowest life forms such as rotten Nadia Suleyman to RIP OFF the best country on the planet, while liberals look the other way.

hahaha!...that was a good one...well said

211 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:05:32am

re: #192 imtoast

Shut up Walter. I know that Charles can post whatever he wants. I also know that he is great enough to post two different threads because he is aware of how contentious D/C is. You really get on my nerves sometimes.

Well, so what. And since there are others here who have mentioned your post, we all should shut up. Sort of the same attitude as telling Charles what to post.

It's not your fucking blog.

212 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:05:42am

re: #187 reine.de.tout

I THOROUGHLY appreciate your anecdotal contribution; you're the first I've seen to explicitly claim "Bullshit". Thanks.

213 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:02am

re: #184 FrogMarch

I hope the Republican party isn't going to hang their hat on Bobby Jindal. Those connections will sink him.
(and I can forgive some of the quirky stuff - but that connection is insane)
OF course Obama's Rev Wright connections should have sunk him, but we all know why they didn't.

I agree. Especially on your statement of forgiving some of the quirky stuff--which is what I did with Sarah Palin. Too each his own as long as you don't let the quirky stuff interfere with your duties or attempt to impose them upon others. Jindal has some views that I just cannot fundamentally agree with.

214 zuckerlilly  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:02am

sharmuta and mandy manners

I´ve to apologize for my claim that most of European believers in ID are evangelicals. This is not true. In Germany most of them are Catholics and Protestants (Lutherans). And the numbers are high (insofar I was right).

39 per cent of the German people belief either in ID or in creationism. 12 per cent are hard core creationists. and are predominantly evangelicals. So, most of German Evangelicals believe in creationism and not in ID.

Sorry, I had to clear this.

215 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:04am

re: #184 FrogMarch

The problem goes beyond Jindal. There are common problems in the Republican party. Jindal is just one example. Conservatives have lost their way on many levels. Free markets, respecting the constitution, advancing science and education, personal liberty and freedom, smaller fiscally responsible government are not as popular as they should be in the Republican party.

216 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:19am

re: #198 theheat

Again, Rule Number 1: Don't shit on your host's porch.

It isn't Darwincy, it's science. How can anyone revealing the truths of science be forcing a religion? Science is not a religion. Science is science. To deny science because of religious beliefs is another matter.

Did I read that wrong, or do you feel like science is beating you black and blue, and has no place in the education system? Your post seems conflicted. That, or I'm dyslexic.

Two words:

Global warming

Bad science or politics? When you begin modifying the data to agree with your hypothesis it becomes bad science and bad science when it becomes political, becomes bad policies.

217 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:22am

re: #197 Shug

The republicans need to focus on being fiscal conservatives, and leave God out of the party platform altogether.

Here Here!

218 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:27am

re: #181 Naso Tang

Sometimes contentious to be sure, but as zombie pointed out above it is of considerable significance not only to those who want to call themselves conservatives and secularists (with or without religion), but also to the left who gain many of those in the middle because of so many "preachers" in the Republican party.

Then there is the simple fact that I would not want my children educated by fools and charlatans.

This is not a forum to avoid sensitive issue, and there is no balance in avoidance.

No there is not. In fact, avoiding issues leads to ignorance. Bestter to challenge yourself with other viewpoints, so that you can either:
learn something new, OR
refine your own thoughts and opinions which helps you better argue your position

219 imtoast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:06:45am

re: #170 Dan G.

How are those who believe in Evolution trying to change the Constitution?

I don't think the evolutionists want to change the Constitution, but your response is an example of what I'm talking about. I woke up this morning to read LGF, it's what I do everyday. These threads cause arguments that have caused people to be banned. I just want to be able to enjoy LGF without having just one new thread about evolution. That was all I was really talking about. There are many of you who enjoy discussing evolution vs creationism. I'd rather not get involved and I never read those threads. Sorry if it upsets you, Walter and Mandy. I'm outta here.

220 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:07:07am

re: #133 Perplexed

Sorry, but as a cancer survivor (surgery & loss of kidney) an inexpensive cancer cure doesn't stand a chance to surface. Too much money in treating cancer and as such the cure would have to come from a very small, independent laboratory.

I remember reading a long time ago: " there is no money to be made in a cure for cancer, but plenty to be made trying to look for it".

221 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:07:12am

re: #199 MandyManners

HEY! Why did I get a ba-humbug for the same thing!? ;)

222 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:07:41am

re: #204 Sharmuta

That's just become my standard response now to people bitching about content.

And indeed- they do seem to think it's Charles' job to cater to them. There are spinoff links- each with comment ability. They are there own threads, and people are free to comment on a wide variety of other topics besides the articles Charles posts. That the spinoff threads are not more widely used by people is just amazing to me.

There is more information in any 24 hour period at LGF, then one has time to actually cover all of it. All the spinoffs, all the links. All the references.
You can spend all day devouring information without ever even touching anything to do with Evolution, etc and still not finish.

yet these asshats seem to spend all of their time on the Creationist/ID/Evolution threads complaining. If they were really serious about wanting "something else" then they would be elsewhere on the blog utilizing all the vast array of information Charles, and the Lizards have provided.

but they would rather bitch and complain I guess.

223 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:07:56am

re: #209 jcm

Questions from students are allowed. However the answer in science class is not "and a miracle happened."

What's worse is trying to change "and a miracle happened" into science and require it as part of the science curriculum.

Another good answer is "I don't know." We don't know everything about everything and a good researcher knows that.

224 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:07:59am

re: #172 Afrocity

...Do you think he will get out of the primaries? I am not going to vote for him if he runs. I would think that the FOX TV show with his awful band playing "the Little Rockers" is enough make any candidate a laughing stock. Overall, he is a nice person. i like what he has done for the African Americans in Arkansas. He has been especially prudent about championing the legacy of civil right. I don't agree with his stance on religion.

I think he'll be competitive in the primaries if he runs. Yeah, he's a nice guy, has done some good things and means well. However, this is hardball (not the Chris Matthews nonsense). Ya gotta play to win. We can't win with Huckabee. At a minimum the MSM will hammer him daily and get results with the middle 20% which is really what a political election is all about.

225 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:08:22am

re: #214 zuckerlilly

No need to apologize for fact checking yourself and setting the record straight in an honest manner. That's for getting back to us on that.

226 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:08:26am
227 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:08:29am

re: #199 MandyManners

Happy Valentine's Day to you, too!

Oh! had me going there for a minute, thought we were in for some monologs or something.

228 ArmyWife  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:08:43am

Dragging out tired old soap box:

A true conservative has no issue with people believing in Creationism. The disconnect begins when this shows up in public school science class. If it's of utmost importance to you to have this be taught in a science class, then please, attend your chosen religious affiliation's private school. In the alternative, teach it to your children at home, in Sunday school, in Church. This isn't so very hard.

As for our resident snake oil salesman, he will turn the Constitution into a "Christian" document the minute I lessen the rigidity on my conservative ideology - and that is scheduled for 1 week after never.

229 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:08:44am

re: #197 Shug

The republicans need to focus on being fiscal conservatives, and leave God out of the party platform altogether.

That about covers it.

230 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:08:54am

re: #161 imtoast


With all due respect, why don't you go do something else for a while? Check out Hot Air, take a walk, etc? Go make coffee? Charles doesn't need to be annoyed by people saying he should post dual threads to suit their tastes. There is a wide, wonderful world full of things besides this blog, and you have many choices.

231 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:09:00am

re: #164 Sharmuta
In all honesty Sharm, there are differences on abortion all over the place but basically they seem to break down to abortion = murder because a fetus is a human being at the moment of conception and abortion = a woman's right to control her own body.
The first is the default position of the Republican Party (as near as I can tell) and the second is the default position of the Democratic Party.
But - and this is NOT directed at you personally - I'm just sick to death of one-issue voters. You know, the types who won't vote for so and so because of his/her stance on abortion. That he/she may in fact be better as POTUS in EVERY OTHER AREA is irrelevant to some voters.
And to me, at least, the first and most important question to ask about political candidates is: Which one will keep America safe - from both foreign and domestic threats. And there is no way Obama beats McCain or Romney or Rudy in that area. Huckabee is OUT cause he really doesn't like MY America, where you are free in your personal life to follow whatever religion you choose or no religion at all, without the government interfering either way and without the government trying to change our precious religious freedom.

232 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:09:01am

re: #219 imtoast

I don't think the evolutionists want to change the Constitution, but your response is an example of what I'm talking about. I woke up this morning to read LGF, it's what I do everyday. These threads cause arguments that have caused people to be banned. I just want to be able to enjoy LGF without having just one new thread about evolution. That was all I was really talking about. There are many of you who enjoy discussing evolution vs creationism. I'd rather not get involved and I never read those threads. Sorry if it upsets you, Walter and Mandy. I'm outta here.

The only thing that bothers me is the way you are telling the host what he should or should not do. And then you make a backhanded swipe at Charles by saying he is "great" enough to post two thread at once.

That sir, is snide and backhanded.

233 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:09:05am

re: #157 albusteve

in all of Co my one or two favorite drives is up from Cortez to Telluride...a classic imo...the goggle pic is pretty cool

Yes indeed - through lizard head wilderness... beautiful. That whole area is wonderful. I love to drive between Ouray and Durango, Montrose and Ridgway, (by the RL ranch) Telluride -
There are some wonderful jeep roads too.

234 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:09:32am

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

The solution to that is prepare your defense in advance. Have leaders read to talk about how you've changed, throw couple a former friends under the bus in the months leading up to your becoming a serious contender. And most importantly: Do not accept public financing and make sure you have lots of donors lined up. You'll need paid media, have the money to pay for it.

You forgot "develop a Messiah complex" and become a world class Narcissus

235 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:09:34am

re: #214 zuckerlilly

sharmuta and mandy manners

I´ve to apologize for my claim that most of European believers in ID are evangelicals. This is not true. In Germany most of them are Catholics and Protestants (Lutherans). And the numbers are high (insofar I was right).

39 per cent of the German people belief either in ID or in creationism. 12 per cent are hard core creationists. and are predominantly evangelicals. So, most of German Evangelicals believe in creationism and not in ID.

Sorry, I had to clear this.

Thank you. I was wondering about it.

236 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:09:46am

re: #177 fish

I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

These are good questions, but often used dishonestly. The problem is that creationists think these are trick questions that disprove evolution, and dismiss any answer given. The ID-issued questions are more often used to hijack a classroom lesson than anything else.

237 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:10:20am

re: #219 imtoast

I'd rather not get involved and I never read those threads.


Then don't. Nobody is forcing you to read this thread. That reminds me the personal responsibility is another lost value among conservatives. Take responsibility for yourself and don't read a thread if you don't want to.

238 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:10:33am

re: #204 Sharmuta

That's just become my standard response now to people bitching about content.

And indeed- they do seem to think it's Charles' job to cater to them. There are spinoff links- each with comment ability. They are there own threads, and people are free to comment on a wide variety of other topics besides the articles Charles posts. That the spinoff threads are not more widely used by people is just amazing to me.

They whine about the evolution threads for one reason -- they're trying to guilt-trip me into shutting up about it.

Not a single person who accepts the theory of evolution has ever complained about the existence of these threads. ONLY creationists do it.

239 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:10:45am

re: #219 imtoast

hese threads cause arguments that have caused people to be banned.

Bullshit. Those who were banned have only themselves to blame. I'm only hostile to dishonest people who try to repeatedly pass bullshit talking points and don't answer honest questions (like, you just did by ignoring the fact that you insinuated that believers in evolution were also trying to change the Constitution).

240 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:10:48am

What's the point of 'defending' people who question Darwinism? They should be able to challenge Darwinism using the same scientific processes that either proved or disproved it. This has been done by empirical evidence.

ID is an unproven theory supported only by theoretical evidence, nothing more. I'm sorry if some feel that this construct is 'shoving darwinism down one's throat,' but it's it's still faith at this point.

241 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:10:49am

re: #177 fish

I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

No one is questioning the right of children to ask innocent (and ignorant) questions. That's what children do.

What we are questioning is the right of teachers to feed your daughter fallacies and disinformation in response to her innocent question.

And you can tell your daughter the answers yourself:

Humans did not evolve from apes: Humans and apes both evolved from (now-exinct) ape-like creatures.

Some fish started to grow longer fins to help them navigate through the mud (either for food or egg-laying sites). Over many millions of years, those fins became primitive legs, the fish's flotation-bladder increased its ability to oxygenize blood and thus became primitive lungs, and a small subset of fish evolved to become primitive amphibians -- who are the ancestors of most land creatures today.

The existence of a child's question about evolution does not mean that creationism has any validity.

242 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:10:55am

re: #222 Shug

yet these asshats seem to spend all of their time on the Creationist/ID/Evolution threads complaining. If they were really serious about wanting "something else" then they would be elsewhere on the blog utilizing all the vast array of information Charles, and the Lizards have provided.

There was one last night on the VA rep ripping Darwin thread saying he was glad to see Charles posted 9 other threads not dealing with ID. So I clicked his avatar and recent comments, and wouldn't you know! He's only commented on the one ID thread! So I called him on it.

It's not that they want other threads- it's that they want Charles to stop exposing ID for the pseudo-science it is.

243 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:11:05am

re: #215 Killgore Trout

The problem goes beyond Jindal. There are common problems in the Republican party. Jindal is just one example. Conservatives have lost their way on many levels. Free markets, respecting the constitution, advancing science and education, personal liberty and freedom, smaller fiscally responsible government are not as popular as they should be in the Republican party.

I agree. I still see them as the lesser of two evils. Perfection isn't on the menu.

244 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:11:42am

re: #161 imtoast

My only comment is I do not want the Constitution touched by either Darwanists or creationists. Other than that, I have nothing to say on this matter, except, could we get another thread up so those who don't want to read about D vs C can read it. Thanks Charles, you do wonderful work but I am so tired of having to go to pogo.com when I could be reading LGF instead.

Anyone who uses the term "Darwinists" is completely out of line and using invented terms by the Creationists. There is no such thing as a "Darwinist". There are people who accept the scientific method of explaining the world and the universe around them (including many religious people who have no problem with this method at all), and there are people who don't.

"Darwinist" has the moniker of a slur. It's like somebody who doesn't accept the Theory of Gravity (It's also "Just a Theory"!) and refers to those of us who do accept it as "Newtonists" to denigrate us.

245 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:11:43am

re: #223 Perplexed

Another good answer is "I don't know." We don't know everything about everything and a good researcher knows that.

It's the I don't know that drives science. When you decided for each "I don't Know" that "God did it" it takes that drive out.

For you who think I'm kidding we have an example that does just that, Islam.

246 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:11:54am

re: #197 Shug

The republicans need to focus on being fiscal conservatives, and leave God out of the party platform altogether.

* * *
If the party of Lincoln (Republican/GOP) wants to invoke Lincoln's and Washington's traditions of invoking their deity as was US tradition for hundreds of years, that's fine by me.

Plenty of other parties who stand for Bolshevik redistribution and removal of freedom have the politically correct secular angle going for them, if that's what's most important for their followers. Putting Marx/Lenin/Mao/Che/Fidel/Hugo First! (That's the all-inclusive ticket that got us here today.)

247 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:12:36am

re: #237 Killgore Trout

Then don't. Nobody is forcing you to read this thread. That reminds me the personal responsibility is another lost value among conservatives. Take responsibility for yourself and don't read a thread if you don't want to.

You know Stinky is standing behind him slapping that wrench in his palm, yelling... READ THE THREAD!
///

248 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:12:45am

re: #207 Charles

I totally missed seeing Katt's comment, but I had a willies moment, since it was another feline with multiple t's. :D

249 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:04am

re: #238 Charles

They whine about the evolution threads for one reason -- they're trying to guilt-trip me into shutting up about it.

Not a single person who accepts the theory of evolution has ever complained about the existence of these threads. ONLY creationists do it.

You are too effective, and they know it.

250 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:11am

ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny

more or less

251 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:14am

re: #194 alegrias

I'm loving Darwinian natural selection theories demonstrated by that intelligent design specimen, the Californian Palestinian mother of Octuplets!

Wow, has that woman figured out how to survive amongst the fittest, by exploiting her ecological niche's loopholes--created by liberals for losers.

Thank you Californian liberals and extremists, for enabling the lowest life forms such as rotten Nadia Suleyman to RIP OFF the best country on the planet, while liberals look the other way.

An important update on OctoMom- here is what she's up to lately.
With her 14 progeny nowhere in sight, octuplet mother of the year Nadya Suleman took time out of her busy press schedule to get a federally subsidized manicure in Norwalk, Calif. on Friday.

252 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:16am

re: #219 imtoast

"I'm outta here"

Don't let the door hit you in the arse.

/bet you think the "Fairness Doctrine" is a great idea too...

253 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:24am

re: #233 FrogMarch

Yes indeed - through lizard head wilderness... beautiful. That whole area is wonderful. I love to drive between Ouray and Durango, Montrose and Ridgway, (by the RL ranch) Telluride -
There are some wonderful jeep roads too.

San Juans are the prettiest...I love the valley below Ouray then of course the town itself...I need to get back up there altho I was at the blues fest in Telluride in Sept...another classic town...never burned down...I hate the pretense up there tho...snooty people, too much money

254 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:31am

re: #234 Desert Dog

You forgot "develop a Messiah complex" and become a world class Narcissus

I didn't put them in because they aren't needed. The money and the throwing under the bus really would be for Jindal.

Off to work, I'll be back tonight.

255 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:36am

re: #246 alegrias

* * *
If the party of Lincoln (Republican/GOP) wants to invoke Lincoln's and Washington's traditions of invoking their deity as was US tradition for hundreds of years, that's fine by me.

Plenty of other parties who stand for Bolshevik redistribution and removal of freedom have the politically correct secular angle going for them, if that's what's most important for their followers. Putting Marx/Lenin/Mao/Che/Fidel/Hugo First! (That's the all-inclusive ticket that got us here today.)


Would you be OK with the party envoking Allah, if we had enough Muslims in the party?


Religion has no place in American Government.
It belongs in the Church, synagogue, and the home.

256 Amer-I-Can  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:42am

re: #4 Edgesitter

and AMEN !

And it bares repeating... AMEN

Christians CAN have their cake and eat it too, but only the TRUE CONSERVATIVE ones.

No Cake for you Mike Hucksterbee

257 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:52am

re: #253 albusteve

Morning Steve.

258 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:13:52am

re: #219 imtoast

I don't think the evolutionists want to change the Constitution, but your response is an example of what I'm talking about. I woke up this morning to read LGF, it's what I do everyday. These threads cause arguments that have caused people to be banned. I just want to be able to enjoy LGF without having just one new thread about evolution. That was all I was really talking about. There are many of you who enjoy discussing evolution vs creationism. I'd rather not get involved and I never read those threads. Sorry if it upsets you, Walter and Mandy. I'm outta here.

No. Those who've been banned have CHOSEN to post stuff that got them banned. No one FORCED them to post. No one.

I'm a Christian who sometimes has a hard time with some of evolution but, it is the accepted science so I want that taught in public schools. And, I made sure that the private, Christian school I chose for The Kid teaches it before I opened up my wallet to pay his tuition.

259 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:14:30am

re: #221 Dan G.

HEY! Why did I get a ba-humbug for the same thing!? ;)

Happy Valentine's Day!

260 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:15:04am

re: #177 fish

While I admit that the "Acedemic Freedom Bills" are being sponsored by lunatics with an agenda, I like the idea of these bills. A scientist and Science students should be encouraged to question the accepted standards without fear of punishment because that question or answer sounds somewhat like what might be found in a religous text. I want to know that my daughter can raise her hand and say "But how did fish start to grow legs?" or "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes, why aren't they all people?" And have that discussion based on the scientific evidence available and not be shut down because she questioned the wrong thing.

You seem to not think that those questions would be answered just by teaching the science. Do you not know the answers to the questions you posed above?

Certainly a teacher could also mention that there are people who don't believe the evidence, yet have no counter evidence, and of course insult someone in the class in the process. Is that what you want?

261 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:15:16am

re: #241 zombie

a small subset of fish evolved to become primitive amphibians

Another mechanism other than the fin hypothesis. De novo legs sprouting as seen with tadpoles.

262 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:15:41am

re: #160 BigPapa

Whoopsy! LOL.

I think we can rest assured that the God created the Big Band theory being taught in music class controversy will not rear its ugly head in blogdom. :D

263 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:15:53am

re: #165 Shug

I never liked cats anyway.

264 Racer X  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:16:12am

To all the Lady Lizards - Happy Valentines Day!

265 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:16:15am

re: #198 theheat

Again, Rule Number 1: Don't shit on your host's porch.

It isn't Darwincy, it's science. How can anyone revealing the truths of science be forcing a religion? Science is not a religion. Science is science. To deny science because of religious beliefs is another matter.

Did I read that wrong, or do you feel like science is beating you black and blue, and has no place in the education system? Your post seems conflicted. That, or I'm dyslexic.

* * * *
Science is not just science. There's also junk science, bad science, unconscionable science, like IMPLANTING 8 embryos in a California welfare queen who's researched the science of ripping off Californians and has tax cheating down to a fine art, or scientific degree of rip-off hood.

266 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:16:15am

re: #241 zombie

Minor quibble with my own reply, in case there are any nitpickers out there:

Some fish started to grow longer fins to help them navigate through the mud..."

=

"Some fish species started to grow longer fins to help them navigate through the mud..."

267 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:16:23am

re: #259 MandyManners

;) Thanks.

268 Kulhwch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:16:52am

You go, Charles!  This remains the best blog for clear thinking and unbiased belief.  I hope it lasts forever.

}:)     [Fuck the theocratic fascists.]

269 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:17:08am

re: #257 Walter L. Newton

Morning Steve.

tis another beautiful morning in the valley...I hope you can say the same

270 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:17:28am

re: #155 realwest

Ah, mind you I can't stand Huckabee - in any way, shape or form. ... Romney was a Mormon - and while that didn't matter to a lot of us Republicans, the MSM made a huge deal out of it and would have slaughtered Romney with his Mormon beliefs.
And it's genuinely sad. I honestly thought this country was past the personal religious beliefs of the President when we elected John F. Kennedy.
Apparently not.

Obama had an even dicier religious history.

271 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:17:52am

re: #231 realwest

I don't disagree with anything you said. My problem is at being called a RINO because I think the party should re-evaluate it's position and the name callers are shutting their minds to reasonable discussion. It's actually kind of a microcosm of the whole ID thing. Creationists block out anything that causes them to question their worldview.

And yes- one issue voters bug me too. It's like they can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Politics is the art of compromise- except to these people, and they have too much influence in our party.

272 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:17:56am
273 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:18:14am

re: #120 Sharmuta

Guiliani...I knew liberals who said they would have voted for him, they liked him. He could have won. But instead, he'll never stand a chance because "conservatives" think he's the RINO.

Even though I'm not identifying as a liberal as much as an independent with liberal leanings these days, I very much liked Guiliani and would have given him my vote. I think what we're witnessing is the beginning of the end of the GOP.

274 Cato the Elder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:18:26am

re: #154 Dan G.

The scene where Mal kicks the threatening bad guy into the engine... priceless.

Also love the scene in "Serenity: The Movie" where Mal tells Jayne to leave the grenades behind. Then they get in a chase with the Reavers.

Jayne: "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if we had some grenades right about now?"

Semper paratus.

275 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:18:42am

re: #219 imtoast

These threads cause arguments that have caused people to be banned.

Think of it as evolution in action.

276 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:18:43am

re: #251 reine.de.tout

An important update on OctoMom- here is what she's up to lately.
With her 14 progeny nowhere in sight, octuplet mother of the year Nadya Suleman took time out of her busy press schedule to get a federally subsidized manicure in Norwalk, Calif. on Friday.

I think the woman has had collagen lip injections. Her lips are just a leetle bit too pouty.

277 Racer X  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:18:59am

...and to those who just want to argue.

278 wiffersnapper  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:19:08am

Can we at least write in the Constitution that Pat Buchanan bashing is allowed?

279 Desert Dog  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:19:13am

re: #270 FightingBack

Obama had an even dicier religious history.

His religious beliefs are like all of his other beliefs and just about everything else about him...concealed and shrouded in mystery...who knows who he is.

280 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:19:15am

re: #220 tommygum
Well

I remember reading a long time ago: " there is no money to be made in a cure for cancer, but plenty to be made trying to look for it".

I sure as hell hope you're wrong about that. Very wrong.

281 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:19:31am

re: #263 tommygum

I never liked cats anyway.

Hisss! /takes bite out of tommy's leg. Runs before tommy can gum her.

282 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:19:54am

#264 Racer X

To all the Lady Lizards - Happy Valentines Day!

Thank you!

283 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:19:57am

re: #276 Cattt

I think the woman has had collagen lip injections. Her lips are just a leetle bit too pouty.

I read that she had plastic surgery or something like that to look like Angelina Jolie and that Jolie was creeped out about it.

284 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:05am

re: #262 Cattt

I think we can rest assured that the God created the Big Band theory being taught in music class controversy will not rear its ugly head in blogdom. :D

I think it's wonderful that we can discuss such important (and unimportant) things and still crack jokes.

285 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:10am

re: #253 albusteve

San Juans are the prettiest...I love the valley below Ouray then of course the town itself...I need to get back up there altho I was at the blues fest in Telluride in Sept...another classic town...never burned down...I hate the pretense up there tho...snooty people, too much money

Telluride is naturally geographically glorious. the progressives up there are a special kind of a-hole, which ruins it for me. I can handle Boulder, but I cannot handle Telluride. If you dare reveal that you are a conservative (via a bumper sticker for one unlucky man and his family) --one of the oh so tolerant inhabitants will spray a swastika on your car and threaten to poison your food at one of the local restaurants. (true story - happened to a guy & his family who were visiting for a weeding)

286 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:21am

re: #278 wiffersnapper

Already covered in the 1st Ammendment (i.e. freedom of expression) ;)

287 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:24am

re: #269 albusteve

tis another beautiful morning in the valley...I hope you can say the same

It's perfect here in Golden. A dusting of snow on the ground, 28 degrees, cloudy, off and on snow showers predicted until 11 this evening, only 2 more performances of the wonderful show, with wonderful reviews, a wonderful cast and lousy attendance.

Next... "The Visitor." Freud is visited by... "?" (is it g-d, is it a nut, is it a Nazi) a few days before he leaves Austria for England.

288 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:37am

re: #261 Dan G.

Another mechanism other than the fin hypothesis. De novo legs sprouting as seen with tadpoles.

Extremely unlikely. That's called the "hopeful monster" conjecture (i.e. that large features emerged in toto due to major teratological mutations). It's possible that it has happened a very few times in the history of life, but most biologists agree it's a zillion-to-one shot that an animal could acquire a useful major mutation and then reproduce and pass it on to offspring who come to dominate the species. Much more likley: an accumulation of tiny variations, as Darwin so insightfully proposed.

289 notutopia  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:45am

Down with pseudoscience!
Let's keep all religious beliefs at home and out of the educational system and textbooks!

Happy Valentine's Day Charles
and to all scaly lizards of LGF!

290 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:48am

re: #266 zombie

Minor quibble with my own reply, in case there are any nitpickers out there:

Some fish started to grow longer fins to help them navigate through the mud..."

=

"Some fish species started to grow longer fins to help them navigate through the mud..."

Some fish already had somewhat longer fins, by random genetic mutation. They survived. The shorties died out.

291 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:20:54am

re: #193 Thanos

Given that Judaism had abandoned the death sentences decreed in Torah by the First Century, CE for less severe punishments (witness St. Paul's commentaries on this topic), for these squirrels to even be discussing the death penalty as punishment for moral offenses is the height of ignorance and hypocrisy.

This is about seeking power and control over other people's lives. It's like Muslim extremists who murder female schoolchildren, because they don't believe females should be able to read and write. Coming from "religious" people, this is disgusting.

292 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:21:05am

re: #185 Afrocity

Damn, I forgot.

Happy Valentine's Day, Lizardettes!

293 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:21:05am

re: #219 imtoast

I don't think the evolutionists want to change the Constitution, but your response is an example of what I'm talking about. I woke up this morning to read LGF, it's what I do everyday. These threads cause arguments that have caused people to be banned. I just want to be able to enjoy LGF without having just one new thread about evolution. That was all I was really talking about. There are many of you who enjoy discussing evolution vs creationism. I'd rather not get involved and I never read those threads. Sorry if it upsets you, Walter and Mandy. I'm outta here.

This is bad faith posting, imo. If you find that you disagree on an issue, stick around, don't run away! Learn how to present your argument in a cogent fashion, respectfully. Sometimes, when we run into new or different ideas, maybe, just maybe, it is us who need more education. I know this to be true of myself. This blog has helped me immensely to understand the whole argument. It is not pro-God versus anti-God at all, though that seems to be the basic thought in the Christian world.

294 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:21:06am

re: #231 realwest

In all honesty Sharm, there are differences on abortion all over the place but basically they seem to break down to abortion = murder because a fetus is a human being at the moment of conception and abortion = a woman's right to control her own body.
The first is the default position of the Republican Party (as near as I can tell) and the second is the default position of the Democratic Party.
But - and this is NOT directed at you personally - I'm just sick to death of one-issue voters. You know, the types who won't vote for so and so because of his/her stance on abortion. That he/she may in fact be better as POTUS in EVERY OTHER AREA is irrelevant to some voters.
And to me, at least, the first and most important question to ask about political candidates is: Which one will keep America safe - from both foreign and domestic threats. And there is no way Obama beats McCain or Romney or Rudy in that area. Huckabee is OUT cause he really doesn't like MY America, where you are free in your personal life to follow whatever religion you choose or no religion at all, without the government interfering either way and without the government trying to change our precious religious freedom.

Amen, Amen Amen. Until last year i was one of those people. I stayed DEM because I was pro-choice and African American. There were few candidates that I really believed in and so many hypocrites here in Chicago ie. Daley (1.0 and 2.0) , Blago, Jacksons, Strodger who raised our sales tax to 10.25%. I am no longer beholden to the DNC over abortion. Actually i have always felt life begins at conception and I was still pro-choice. I have never had an abortion but lets say I did,,,but I am somewhat spiritual i never wanted to be in that positions. I was a virgin till i was 27 just so I could have my shit together in case I ever did get pregnant. Kind of extreme but I felt strongly about the issue.

295 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:21:38am

re: #275 itellu3times

You mean... (snicker)... social Darwinism or social ID?

296 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:21:48am

re: #285 FrogMarch

weeding = wedding.

297 notutopia  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:22:38am

re: #289 notutopia

Down with pseudoscience!
Let's keep all religious beliefs at home and out of the educational system and textbooks!

Happy Valentine's Day Charles
and to all scaly lizards of LGF!

P.S. Leave the US Constitution alone!

298 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:22:48am
299 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:23:08am

re: #291 quickjustice

Coming from "religious" people, this is disgusting.

You have to be wary around people who think an all-powerful, all knowing creator really needs their help.

300 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:23:26am

re: #275 itellu3times

Think of it as evolution in action.

the argument caused the banning?...well that says something right there

301 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:23:37am

re: #290 FightingBack

Some fish already had somewhat longer fins, by random genetic mutation. They survived. The shorties died out.

Yes. Thank you.

One of the "problems" with the mechanism of evolution is that it is hard to phrase it accurately as part of a fluent and mellifluous sentence.

Any shorthand rendering of the process always introduces a technical inaccuracy.

302 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:23:37am

re: #288 zombie

I'm sure that the legs sprouted from the same cells that made the fins (think embryonic level) instead of iteratively less and less like a fin, more and more like a leg. Though, I am not well read on this particular developmental system (i.e. frogs), so I could be dead wrong. But, its not exactly the "major teratological mutation" situation that I'm premising; I just wasn't thorough in my explanation.

303 MikeyHunt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:24:18am

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

304 swamprat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:24:32am

The Constitution is neither religious, or anti-religious. As the tides of public opinion flow from one side to another, I hope America has the good common sense to leave our keystone document as an anchor, unadulturated by passing whims .

305 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:24:55am

Regarding Michelle Obama's comment on Bush's 600 dollar "stimulus checks" being so small aod worthless

"What can you buy with 600$, a pair of earrings?"

Can you imagine what would have happened if Cindy McCain or Sarah Palin would have said that?

306 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:25:02am

re: #251 reine.de.tout

An important update on OctoMom- here is what she's up to lately.
With her 14 progeny nowhere in sight, octuplet mother of the year Nadya Suleman took time out of her busy press schedule to get a federally subsidized manicure in Norwalk, Calif. on Friday.

* * *
You noticed too! What a BITCH. Heads ought to roll! As if that crazy BITCH has fed her children or changed a diaper lately. Everyone involved in that taxpayer funded IVF scam ought to go to jail, and California politicians ought to answer for this crime against humanity.

Talk about EVIL science. Those California "healthcare professionals" who let this parasitic Palestinian welfare queen be impregnated and replicated and propagated are criminals. Poor kids. Poor Us!

I noticed that IVF welfare queen's manicured hands while she cupped one of her sick little neonatal babies at the Neonatal Infant unit where they are racking up healthcare expenses by the millions for Californians to pay.

307 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:25:04am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

And I'll believe in your "god" when you can show me a "soul?" What?

308 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:25:06am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

My dog has a soul. Now you prove she doesn't.

309 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:25:36am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

have you ever owned a dog or a horse or a cat etc?...how does one see your soul?

310 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:25:42am

re: #285 FrogMarch

Telluride is naturally geographically glorious. the progressives up there are a special kind of a-hole, which ruins it for me. I can handle Boulder, but I cannot handle Telluride. If you dare reveal that you are a conservative (via a bumper sticker for one unlucky man and his family) --one of the oh so tolerant inhabitants will spray a swastika on your car and threaten to poison your food at one of the local restaurants. (true story - happened to a guy & his family who were visiting for a weeding)

I remember Ouray and Telluride when they were just Ouray and Telluride (sans all them leftie furriners). Alas, alack. At least my home town may have been spared - Grand Junction, being on a high plain desert instead of up in the pretty glacial cirques, etc., is not chic.

311 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:25:46am

re: #301 zombie

Any shorthand rendering of the process always introduces a technical inaccuracy.

Exactly.

312 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:26:09am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

Since the soul is invisible, how can anyone show it to you?

313 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:26:15am

re: #307 Walter L. Newton

And I'll believe in your "god" when you can show me a "soul?" What?

Never mind, I shouldn't have even started it since, looking at his stats, he appears to be a troll who will waste our time. Sorry.

314 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

Search the Constitution for the word "God," and let me know how many times it appears. I'll wait.

315 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:26:43am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

Oh, that ol' chestnut. Someone hasn't been reading his Jefferson or Adams.

316 vxbush  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:04am

re: #301 zombie

Yes. Thank you.

One of the "problems" with the mechanism of evolution is that it is hard to phrase it accurately as part of a fluent and mellifluous sentence.

Any shorthand rendering of the process always introduces a technical inaccuracy.

And people complain about mathematics being a foreign language.

317 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:12am

re: #219 imtoast

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!

318 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:12am

re: #313 Walter L. Newton

Never mind, I shouldn't have even started it since, looking at his stats, he appears to be a troll who will waste our time. Sorry.

does a troll have a soul?...Charles?

319 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:13am

re: #276 Cattt

I think the woman has had collagen lip injections. Her lips are just a leetle bit too pouty.

She is trying to look like Angelia Jolie

320 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:20am

re: #182 Shug

For F--k's sakes, these people act like Charles exists for their own personal enjoyment.
The guy spends 7 days a week providing a great blog, and all they do is freaking bitch, piss and moan about the content.

Gawd!

I get the impression that they feel 'entitled' somehow - as if LGF is some sort of state institution that has been charged with the responsibility of representing them in all their wackiness. It makes me laugh, so it does.

321 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:21am

re: #255 Shug

Would you be OK with the party envoking Allah, if we had enough Muslims in the party?


Religion has no place in American Government.
It belongs in the Church, synagogue, and the home.

* * * *
No, I'm not for rewriting our nation's founding documents where the deity of our nation's founding fathers is mentioned. Sorry, not into rewriting history as HERstory or ALLAHstory.

Sorry, I've got bigger FISH to fry.

322 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:29am

And - - - when did got create glacial cirques? Do the IDers splain scientifically geographic events that obviously took a long time happening in 0 to 60? I don't THINK so.

323 zuckerlilly  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:30am
324 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:34am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

Is that considered a good username for a Christian, by the way?

325 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:37am

re: #306 alegrias

* * *
You noticed too! What a BITCH. Heads ought to roll! As if that crazy BITCH has fed her children or changed a diaper lately. Everyone involved in that taxpayer funded IVF scam ought to go to jail, and California politicians ought to answer for this crime against humanity.

Talk about EVIL science. Those California "healthcare professionals" who let this parasitic Palestinian welfare queen be impregnated and replicated and propagated are criminals. Poor kids. Poor Us!

I noticed that IVF welfare queen's manicured hands while she cupped one of her sick little neonatal babies at the Neonatal Infant unit where they are racking up healthcare expenses by the millions for Californians to pay.

I could be wrong but, her father is a Palestinian and she's an American.

326 notutopia  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:27:41am

#303
Prove there is a "soul"?
This is soul.

327 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:02am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

I know of or have seen human beings who have no soul.

I also have had pets who have more soul than many humans I know.

328 Optimizer  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:12am

re: #34 Sharmuta

Lately, I've been appalled by the number of people calling themselves "conservatives" who seem to have forgotten the principles of conservatism- less intrusive government, fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility, and individual rights. ...

Had dinner with my mother (Mrs. Conservative Christian) the other day. Sure, she's always FOR intrusive govt if it means the govt forcing her religious views on people.

But what was new was when I told her that her union (the teacher's union in NYS) was airing class warfare ads. These adds whine about inadequate funding for education - in a state that spends about the most per pupil in the Universe, but with lackluster results. They use Obama-like rhetoric that claim our that you better pay up or it will be the end of the world. But they go even further than Obama, directly pointing the finger at "the rich" who, they allege, don't pay what's "fair". Pure class-warfare sociaism, at it's worst.

She thought it was great, because she's worried about hanging on to her very generous retirement benefits.

329 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:20am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

It was the Greeks who invented republics, and many of our Founders were Deists.

330 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:23am

re: #305 Shug

Regarding Michelle Obama's comment on Bush's 600 dollar "stimulus checks" being so small aod worthless

"What can you buy with 600$, a pair of earrings?"

Can you imagine what would have happened if Cindy McCain or Sarah Palin would have said that?

Dear Michelle: In the real world, people spend 600 dollars on things like:

Car repair, so they can get to work. Most people have jobs they can actually get fired from.

Medical care for themselves or loved ones. If you have big medical bills, $600 may not be a lot, but it sure helps.

Clothes and food for kids. Most kids don't have parents making $300,000.

Heating bills! 600 is enough to heat a house in the Northeast for...at least a couple of months.

Personally, the only piece of jewelry I own worth more than $600 is my wedding ring. That's true for most women I know. I would guess that isn't true in her world.

331 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:23am

re: #320 Jimmah

They're trying not only that, but to guilt the wool back over people's eyes (other lizards, not just Charles); they've been exposed for the anti-Americans that they are.

332 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:25am

re: #305 Shug

Regarding Michelle Obama's comment on Bush's 600 dollar "stimulus checks" being so small aod worthless

"What can you buy with 600$, a pair of earrings?"

Can you imagine what would have happened if Cindy McCain or Sarah Palin would have said that?

She really said that? You could also buy $600 worth of arugula.

333 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:32am

OT, since the usual ID ejection has already happened.

Has anybody found it ironic that you cannot believe The Great SteamYouLose Package cannot be successful unless you believe in... here it comes... that the money needs to trickle down through the economy to do any good?

I find it ironic that the support for StimUloss comes from people who regularly repel supply side, trickle down, and thereby call it voodoo economics to disparage it. How can you believe in one, and not the other?

I'm sure any number of talking heads must have railed about this obvious irony, no? I can't find any dialog on it.

334 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:32am

re: #320 Jimmah

I get the impression that they feel 'entitled' somehow - as if LGF is some sort of state institution that has been charged with the responsibility of representing them in all their wackiness. It makes me laugh, so it does.

Maybe Charles could get a piece of the stimulus pie eh? Infrastructure maintenance and all.

335 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:32am

re: #306 alegrias

I noticed that IVF welfare queen's manicured hands while she cupped one of her sick little neonatal babies at the Neonatal Infant unit where they are racking up healthcare expenses by the millions for Californians to pay.

It's almost impossible to take care of even one baby with that kind of a manicure. Much less 14 kids.

336 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:49am

re: #264 Racer X

To all the Lady Lizards - Happy Valentines Day!

* * *
And likewise to all gentlemen lizards.

337 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:28:56am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

It's also founded on Greco Roman and Judaic principles, can you show me where the word "God" is in the contstitution?

Indeed the constitution specifically forbids religious tests in article six, forbids punishment for blashphemy and apostasy in the bill of rights, and establishment of state religion in the body.

338 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:00am

#139 Thanos

Do you have a link for all that info? It's very disturbing and all too reminiscent of Islam if it is verifiable.

339 amused  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:01am

To me, Islam is a political system masquerading as a religion. It confers upon its leaders the divine right to rule. The European version of the divine right to rule is what the founding fathers objected to when founding America. So to me, the religious wing of the Republican party wants to make America look like the Islamic theocracies of the Middle East. And until the Republican party repudiates the religious right, I can never vote Republican even though I agree with many of its better ideas.

340 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:02am

re: #319 reine.de.tout

She is trying to look like Angelia Jolie

I'm beginning to suspect she has some serious mental health issues.

341 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:12am

re: #312 MandyManners

Since the soul is invisible, how can anyone show it to you?

A few years ago I found out that I was invisible around certain hot chicks. The ones that could see me were very handy with their ten-foot poles.

342 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:37am

re: #302 Dan G.

I'm sure that the legs sprouted from the same cells that made the fins (think embryonic level) instead of iteratively less and less like a fin, more and more like a leg. Though, I am not well read on this particular developmental system (i.e. frogs), so I could be dead wrong. But, its not exactly the "major teratological mutation" situation that I'm premising; I just wasn't thorough in my explanation.

Well, actually, this very issue was widely discussed in Darwin's day: the connection between embryology and evolution, as many biologists noted the very close parallels between the development of eggs and embryos and the evolutionary development of that species.

The apparent fact that evolution requires "hopeful monsters" to work was in fact one of the earliest attempts at a viable argument against Darwin's thesis, but he showed that major (and unlikely) "leaps" in evolution are not necessary -- an imperceptible accumulation of teeny changes over millions of years is all that is required.

343 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:42am

re: #324 Charles

Is that considered a good username for a Christian, by the way?

Who is Mikey Hunt?

344 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:29:58am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.
But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

This requires belief in the religious concept of a soul. You can't use religion as a way of disproving science, the two don't mix that way.
Can you show me a person with a soul?
IMO, anyone who brings up this question has never had a pet dog!

345 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:30:03am

re: #340 MandyManners

I'm beginning to suspect she has some serious mental health issues.

You are beginning to suspect?
What was the clue?
LOL.

346 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:30:24am

re: #320 Jimmah

Sort of like, "Waah, you're hurting me with your constant scrutiny, it hurts! Stop. Close your eyes and just let us do our deeds."

347 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:30:51am

re: #310 Cattt

I remember Ouray and Telluride when they were just Ouray and Telluride (sans all them leftie furriners). Alas, alack. At least my home town may have been spared - Grand Junction, being on a high plain desert instead of up in the pretty glacial cirques, etc., is not chic.

The pretty glacial cirques have been over-run with 60's hippies and their not-so-tolerant off-spring. Grand junction is your home town, eh. Cool. I wasn't born in CO - but I grew up here. I never tire of the mountains. In the summer there is no other place I'd rather be, than here.

348 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:30:59am
349 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:01am

re: #343 MandyManners

Who is Mikey Hunt?

some bad guy...I'm checking

350 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:02am

re: #340 MandyManners

I'm beginning to suspect she has some serious mental health issues.

And she's going to influence the gene pool a lot more than we are.

351 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:04am

re: #328 Optimizer

She's not conservative. She's misguided.

352 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:08am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

What is soul? Quantify that into a scientific reference then we can start the process.

353 theheat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:09am

re: #324 Charles

ICK. Now that's icky.

FWIW - I knew a guy, and that was really his name. I thought his parents were either dim or particularly cruel.

354 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:17am

re: #332 Afrocity

She really said that? You could also buy $600 worth of arugula.

That'd make one heckuva' salad.

355 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:26am

re: #164 Sharmuta


It fascinating there are conservatives who say they support less intrusive government... except when it comes to their pet social issue.

You misrepresent what most conservatives say they want. A smaller federal government is only less intrusive because it has less resources. I certainly don't want the FBI to be 'less intrusive' for example, when investigating human trafficking rings. "Intrusiveness" doesn't enter into the equation; and there is a huge difference in being a conservative and being a right-wing anarchist.

356 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:39am

re: #343 MandyManners

Who is Mikey Hunt?

Remove the y.

357 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:41am
358 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:43am

re: #343 MandyManners

Remove the "y" and say it fast (i.e. look out for the "C"-bomb).

359 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:48am

mike hunt

[Link: www.dailyredundancy.com...]

360 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #338 ladycatnip

#139 Thanos

Do you have a link for all that info? It's very disturbing and all too reminiscent of Islam if it is verifiable.

Of course it will be damned by the DI shills as a "leftist" org.

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

361 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:07am

MikeyHunt is a gag name. Like Bigus Dickus.

362 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:07am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

Yes we can, the Constitution is founded on many principals going back to the Hammurabi. Biblical traditions both Jewish and Christian are built in as a societal guide not a religious requirement.

Agreement with Charles is not a requisite a civil discourse is.

Frankly, I'm embarrassed to say the most uncivil in these discussions have been my fellow Christians.

363 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:16am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Other than that, I agree completely with all of Charles' other political views.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

What does a soul have to do with evolution?

Please don't answer that - that is just too weird of a statement.

364 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:16am

re: #340 MandyManners

I'm beginning to suspect she has some serious mental health issues.

Spot on.

365 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:23am

re: #340 MandyManners

I'm beginning to suspect she has some serious mental health issues.

I would advocate taking those kids away but there is really no grounds. She lied and said a church was helping her, yet the church has never heard of her before. Laura Ingram sort of got into O'reilly about it because Laura felt abortion was the bigger issue and I take it that she is against IVF.

366 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:27am

re: #341 rwmofo

A few years ago I found out that I was invisible around certain hot chicks. The ones that could see me were very handy with their ten-foot poles.

The're not worth wasting your time on.

367 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:41am

re: #220 tommygum

My father, a cancer surgeon, said the same thing ("a small lab nobody's heard of will come up with a cure for cancer") forty years ago. The cure for cancer is likely to be found in current gene therapy. We already know that some people are far more susceptible to cancer genetically than others. Coming up with a therapy that repairs those genetic defects will go a long way towards eliminating the disease.

On the other hand, there are sinister doings working against this with the stealth Obama Health Information Technology Plan that sailed through the Congress. As researchers discover and develop genetically-based cures for current ailments, including cancer, they are developing therapies that must be individually tailored to each patient. Tailoring is expensive, and impossible to price or cover through mass government insurance programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

So the only way to save Medicare and Medicaid is to slow down or to eliminate this type of medical research. That's specifically what Tom Daschle discussed doing in his book. Obama's medicine is medicine without progress and without hope for people currently ill with "incurable" genetically-based diseases.

368 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:32:41am

re: #348 Ojoe

The Towercam is worth a look again, beautiful clouds in the middle distance. San Gabrial Mountains of California, Latitude 34.2

& God is a fact in the here and now, or never mind at all about God.

YES!
I can't find my bookmark, was hoping you'd post this today.

369 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:33:08am

re: #345 reine.de.tout

You are beginning to suspect?
What was the clue?
LOL.

Okay. My suspicions got stronger.

370 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:33:12am

re: #355 Scion9

Are you calling me a right-wing anarchist?

371 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:33:19am

re: #361 Summer

Hey, my father was named Bigus Dickus.

/History of the World?

372 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:33:41am

re: #371 Dan G.

Hey, my father was named Bigus Dickus.

/History of the World?

Life of Brian. =)

373 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:33:50am

re: #226 Iron Fist

Like I said last night, the Democrats have been simply ignoring the very existance of the Second Amendment since at least FDR's first term (1934 NFA). I don't like Huckabee, but at least he recognizes that the Constitution forbids or restrains what he wants to do. It's his right to try and amend the Constitution. We all have that right, the gun controllers included. I don't think you could get either agenda through a Constitutional Convention or the amendment process.
The democrats simply ignoring of parts of the Constitution they don't like is a more dangerous precedent than huckabee's wanting to amend the Constitution. Afte all, if you can ignore and weasel around on as simple and straightforward a topic as the Second Amendment, you can play all kinds of games using the other nine. And that's not even counting the penumbras and emmanations that come from the Constitution to justify making a law where the Constitution is mute.


Upding and spot on.

That being said...

you know me, evil eye
you know me, prepare to die
you know me, you can't resist
the devil's grip, the iron fist.

No deep meaning there. I just like Motorhead.

374 zombie  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:33:51am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Ever looked into the eyes of a Labrador Retriever?

Ever watched an elephant cry when its mate dies?

Ever seen the films of Koko the gorilla weeping when her pet kitten was run over by a car?

If don't believe that animals have souls, I feel sorry for you.

375 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:34:02am
re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.


re: #314 Charles
Search the Constitution for the word "God," and let me know how many times it appears. I'll wait.


---
Here is a pdf file to assist you in your search:
ratify.constitutioncenter.org/constitution/constitution.pdf (cut and paste; pdf will download)

and a Google-generated html version (funny looking, but opens in browser): [Link: 74.125.47.132...]

376 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:34:06am

re: #363 reine.de.tout

What does a soul have to do with evolution?

Please don't answer that - that is just too weird of a statement.

besides that iirc correctly isn't "soul" really a bad translation of an ancient word meaning "animal" ?

377 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:34:11am

re: #350 FightingBack

And she's going to influence the gene pool a lot more than we are.

Genes are neutral. It's what you put into a kid's mind that counts.

378 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:34:27am

re: #271 Sharmuta

I don't disagree with anything you said. My problem is at being called a RINO because I think the party should re-evaluate it's position and the name callers are shutting their minds to reasonable discussion. It's actually kind of a microcosm of the whole ID thing. Creationists block out anything that causes them to question their worldview.

And yes- one issue voters bug me too. It's like they can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Politics is the art of compromise- except to these people, and they have too much influence in our party.

* * *
and they have too much influence in our party

Tell me again, who's being a ONE ISSUE voter here? There's plenty of ONE issue blaming to go around. Everyone has their pet issue or opposing view of this pet issue.

Surely to WIN elections over the Bolsheviks now in charge, we must have agreement on some other fundamental issue(s).

379 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:34:41am

re: #219 imtoast

There's that "wham" sound again.

380 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:35:13am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

First PROVE to me you have a soul.
Then we'll move to animals.
How do you prove a soul?

381 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:35:13am

re: #356 rwmofo

Remove the y.

re: #358 Dan G.

Remove the "y" and say it fast (i.e. look out for the "C"-bomb).

Oh, my goodness. Well, I never.

382 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:35:31am

re: #367 quickjustice

The first thing to realize is that there is not "A" cure for cancer in that the different types are caused by significantly different problems (just like there isn't "A" fix for your broken down vehicle, could be one of several, or a combination of several, problems).

383 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:35:42am

re: #332 Afrocity

She really said that? You could also buy $600 worth of arugula.

yes she said that. Sitting next to Jennifer Granholm, the Governor of Michigan.

Granholm raised her hand, more than happy to take 600 dollars!

Of course the pigs in the press ignored this story.
had it been Cindy McCain, can you imagine the headlines " OUT OF TOUCH"

384 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #372 Summer

Thanks. ;)

385 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:36:20am

Oops - preview puts a blank in the pdf file, for some reason. Take the blank out of the following:

ratify.constitutioncenter.org/constitution/constitution.pdf

386 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:36:36am

re: #365 Afrocity

I would advocate taking those kids away but there is really no grounds. She lied and said a church was helping her, yet the church has never heard of her before. Laura Ingram sort of got into O'reilly about it because Laura felt abortion was the bigger issue and I take it that she is against IVF.

I'm all for IVF when used responsibly. It wasn't in this case. I hope the AMA and CMA take a hard look at that doctor.

387 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:36:37am

re: #343 MandyManners

Who is Mikey Hunt?


I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT!

388 Shug  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:36:57am

re: #319 reine.de.tout

She is trying to look like Angelia Jolie

She needs an Asian and African sperm donor next time then

389 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:11am

re: #374 zombie

Ever looked into the eyes of a Labrador Retriever?

Ever watched an elephant cry when its mate dies?

Ever seen the films of Koko the gorilla weeping when her pet kitten was run over by a car?

If don't believe that animals have souls, I feel sorry for you.

Totally agreed. And to carry it even further...I'm not sure if it actually is anti-Christian to believe that animals have souls. If they didn't, wouldn't St. Francis just have been wasting his time?

I don't think people like MikeyHunt ever think these things through and are only half-sentient themselves if they don't see the "soul" in life all around them.

Heck, even as an Atheist...I appear to have more understanding and empathy of these things around me than MikeyHunt does...

How embarrassing for him.

390 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:17am

re: #273 eclectic infidel

Even though I'm not identifying as a liberal as much as an independent with liberal leanings these days, I very much liked Guiliani and would have given him my vote. I think what we're witnessing is the beginning of the end of the GOP.

* * *
Giuliani ran a terrible primary campaign, strategery wise, that's why he lost.

Giuliani can still be important to our country in other capacities, like growing the amoebic wormy North East GOP's spine. Finding a replacement for Arlen Specter.

391 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:20am

re: #381 MandyManners

Oh, my goodness. Well, I never.

so there is no Mike Hunt...those juvenile jokes get me every time

392 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:27am

I said it yesterday, but I'll say it again. If you understand Christanity, you understand that one must come to Christ voluntarily. Being forced is no good, because He wants faith, which has to happen in your heart.

A Christian constitution would allow people freedom of religion and speech, kind of like...the one we have now. I seem to recall that the constition specifically mentioned our freedom of speech, and prohibited a forced religion. Something like that. ;)

There is nothing Christian about trying to force others to believe. (Persuade, invite, explain, just fine. Force, no good.)

393 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:34am

re: #383 Shug

yes she said that. Sitting next to Jennifer Granholm, the Governor of Michigan.

Granholm raised her hand, more than happy to take 600 dollars!

Of course the pigs in the press ignored this story.
had it been Cindy McCain, can you imagine the headlines " OUT OF TOUCH"

Michelle Obama is a bitter and vindictive shrew. I care for her opinion on ANYTHING about as much as I care for the stuff I just scraped off my shoe. F--- her and the horse she rode in on.

394 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:52am

#360 Thanos

Thanks for the link. Just skim-read it and will read more later, but I do know there's a fringe group out there (and I do mean fringe) who believes this stuff. Mainstream Christianity does not endorse this; thankfully they've not gathered a whole lot of steam over the last few decades - just preaching to themselves.

395 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:37:53am

re: #306 alegrias

When we adopted our children, there were mountains of paperwork to be done, background checks, social worker visits, etc. And that was just to get approval to APPLY to adopt. After a child was placed with us, we had to pay for post-placement social worker visits and submit the social worker's reports to our agency and the government.
I'm not advocating post-birth social worker reports for all babies. Can you imagine if that was required? There'd be no end to the outrage.
But why hasn't this woman been investigated by SRS? Those 8 babies should not be allowed to go home with her. Isn't it obvious that she is not capable of caring for even their most basic needs?
Sorry for the OT rant. But it burns me up that I went through so much effort to prove I am capable of raising 2 children, while this woman recklessly has 14 by IVF, and those social workers are nowhere to be seen.

396 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:02am

re: #354 MandyManners

That'd make one heckuva' salad.

What amazes me is there is almost NO money in this bill that will go directly into someone's pocket, so they can go out and spend it in the public sector.

I'm not saying that I want any sort of handout, but a lot of people that voted for Obama think that there was going to be something coming their way. They are going to be in for a big surprise when they realize that the only sure money to them is...

13 dollars a week for a year
8 dollars a week for the second year.

That's it. There will be a 250 one time payment for some seniors and any of the other money in your pocket deals are for special situations (by something or other etc.)

So, no one is going to see any money to help them pay heating bills, buy tires (I could use some), pay for some needed repair etc.

And the job numbers keep going up, down, save, create, I've heard as low as 1 million to as high as 4 million job and everything in between.

This bill is a cluster fuck.

397 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:05am

re: #319 reine.de.tout

She is trying to look like Angelia Jolie

I read that. Lol. Hold on - I'm going to go try to look like Marilyn Monroe. /

398 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:10am

re: #304 swamprat

The Constitution is neither religious, or anti-religious. As the tides of public opinion flow from one side to another, I hope America has the good common sense to leave our keystone document as an anchor, unadulturated by passing whims .

* * *
THANK YOU!

399 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:12am

re: #299 jaunte

You have to be wary around people who think an all-powerful, all knowing creator really needs their help.

IMHO, it's used as a way of getting the all-powerful and all-knowing on "their" side of an argument. The ultimate (psychological) trump card.

400 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:29am

re: #363 reine.de.tout

What does a soul have to do with evolution?

Please don't answer that - that is just too weird of a statement.

Where does the soul reside? Can it be dissected? Can it be measured?
Opps, someone is mixing physics and metaphysics again.

401 the_flying_pig  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:30am

Well said, Charles!

402 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:32am

I strongly suspect that "Mikey Hunt" is a moby.

403 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:32am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

George Washington, an Episcopalian, addressed many diverse groups of U.S. citizens, including Jews. He always referred to an omnipotent Creator in his speeches, but was careful to avoid sectarian and divisive religious issues that might divide and offend his audience.

He'd be a great role model for many of the religious people who visit this site.

404 CharlieBravo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:36am

Most have an opinion 'against' possible candidates without mentioning the name of someone they would support. Since belief in a bible story is the litmus test for disqualification, can we decide on a couple people we can start getting behind now?

405 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:41am

re: #345 reine.de.tout

You are beginning to suspect?
What was the clue?
LOL.


Here's a link on her Angelina Jolie creepiness.

406 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:42am

re: #374 zombie

No kidding about the higher animals, I have this orange cat, he's as connected to the Creator as anything.

407 rawmuse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:48am

Just a drive by quick post to say that I am behind Charles 100%.

408 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:48am

re: #378 alegrias

Tell me again, who's being a ONE ISSUE voter here?

All the Republicans in Kansas who keep electing Dennis Moore and Kathleen Sebelius over hard right candidates. 90 or better percent of these Republicans who vote for Moore and Sebelius go to Church every Sunday. Are they being "one issue" too?

409 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:52am

re: #387 rightymouse

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT!

I found out what it means.

410 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:55am

re: #247 jcm

You know Stinky is standing behind him slapping that wrench in his palm, yelling... READ THE THREAD!
///

Like Martin Koslek with the riding crop.

411 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:38:56am

re: #361 Summer

MikeyHunt is a gag name. Like Bigus Dickus.

Richard Cranium.

412 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:39:36am

re: #393 Jetpilot1101

Michelle Obama is a bitter and vindictive shrew. I care for her opinion on ANYTHING about as much as I care for the stuff I just scraped off my shoe. F--- her and the horse she rode in on.

yep, what he said

413 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #391 albusteve

so there is no Mike Hunt...those juvenile jokes get me every time

I was thinking he was a fictional bad guy.

414 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:39:56am

re: #378 alegrias

If you can't tell who one issue voters are, I'm not sure I can help you.

As for the principles of the party, and finding common ground- that's what many of us on this thread have been discussing. You can find what I feel are the principles of my conservatism at #34 and throughout this thread.

415 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:39:58am
303 MikeyHunt 2/14/09 10:24:18 am reply quote


The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

No - our Founding Fathers were founded on their parents having sex. /had to snark this

416 albusteve  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:10am

albusteve has a hidden meaning

417 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:17am

re: #407 rawmuse

Just a drive by quick post to say that I am behind Charles 100%.

Do you want to reword that?

418 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:19am

re: #383 Shug

yes she said that. Sitting next to Jennifer Granholm, the Governor of Michigan.

Granholm raised her hand, more than happy to take 600 dollars!

Of course the pigs in the press ignored this story.
had it been Cindy McCain, can you imagine the headlines " OUT OF TOUCH"

Meanwhile he buys a $1 Mil house from a known criminal and buys MO a multi thousand $$$ ring, eats fillet while people are without power in Kentucky.
"I have a bracelet too"

419 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:36am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

Another theocratic nut who wears his idiocy on his sleeve as a provocation, and then signs off with a 'be nice'.

Still reeling from the stupidity of that point about souls.

420 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:42am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

Down-dinged because of that.
The other (animals with souls) is your prerogative.

421 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:54am

re: #395 KansasMom

When we adopted our children, there were mountains of paperwork to be done, background checks, social worker visits, etc. And that was just to get approval to APPLY to adopt. After a child was placed with us, we had to pay for post-placement social worker visits and submit the social worker's reports to our agency and the government.
I'm not advocating post-birth social worker reports for all babies. Can you imagine if that was required? There'd be no end to the outrage.
But why hasn't this woman been investigated by SRS? Those 8 babies should not be allowed to go home with her. Isn't it obvious that she is not capable of caring for even their most basic needs?
Sorry for the OT rant. But it burns me up that I went through so much effort to prove I am capable of raising 2 children, while this woman recklessly has 14 by IVF, and those social workers are nowhere to be seen.

((kansasMom)) Your children are lucky to have you as their mom!

422 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:40:54am

re: #415 Cattt

sex and no abortion

423 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:11am

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

What amazes me is there is almost NO money in this bill that will go directly into someone's pocket, so they can go out and spend it in the public sector.

I'm not saying that I want any sort of handout, but a lot of people that voted for Obama think that there was going to be something coming their way. They are going to be in for a big surprise when they realize that the only sure money to them is...

13 dollars a week for a year
8 dollars a week for the second year.

That's it. There will be a 250 one time payment for some seniors and any of the other money in your pocket deals are for special situations (by something or other etc.)

So, no one is going to see any money to help them pay heating bills, buy tires (I could use some), pay for some needed repair etc.

And the job numbers keep going up, down, save, create, I've heard as low as 1 million to as high as 4 million job and everything in between.

This bill is a cluster fuck.

I think most of those who voted for him to get free shit were muddle-headed in the first place.

424 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:13am

re: #271 Sharmuta
Well then we really don't disagree at all - and I'd never call you a RINO - but that doesn't mean RINO's don't exist.
It's all fine and well that Charles is into Darwin and science - I learn a lot out here because of Charles. But at the same time a lot of us do not focus on the DEMOCRAT's - their agenda(s) are surely as unAmerican (in terms of big government, socialism, playing footsie with Islamic Jihadists, fiscal responsibility etc.,etc.) as that asshat Huckabee. Only he wants to change our Constitution in ways which I find not only offensive, but unAmerican. The Democrats are more stealthy than that, but they too want to change America in truly fundamental ways - the Census, for example, is just one way. Funding ACORN and enacting Clinton's version of the Community Reinvestment Act are others.
And while I'm NOT trying to tell Charles what to post, it seems to me that the Democrats have SERIOUS leadership problems too - Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et. al. but the threads tend to be about the problems the Repubican's have with Leadership, only because SOME Republicans want to teach creationisim in the schools. And I agree that teaching ID/ceationism whatever in the public schools is WRONG but I guess I'm missing something here: at least with the people I know, creationism and ID usually have to be explained to them and the response I get is "What does that have to do with the WoT?" Or What does that have to do with the economy?". And the more learned ones say "I'm more concerned about what Bill Ayers want's taught in the Public Schools because that is much more of an active issue in the schools now."

425 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:17am

re: #399 pre-Boomer Marine brat

IMHO, it's used as a way of getting the all-powerful and all-knowing on "their" side of an argument. The ultimate (psychological) trump card.

The same people are usually outraged when you tell them they're acting like radical islamists.

426 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:35am

re: #414 Sharmuta

I'm an unabashed one issue voter; INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS is my one issue (up high in the hierarchical tree, so it affects many sub-topics... ;) ).

427 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:35am

OT: UK Humanitarians headed for Gaza arrested for terrorism...
Terror Raids After Nine Arrested

Two vans were surrounded as part of an intelligence-led operation connected to a potential threat of terrorism overseas, police said.

The vehicles, one an old ambulance, bore an image of the Palestinian flag and signs saying "Stop Killing Children, Free Palestine" and "From Blackburn (UK) to Gaza".

With medical supplies and clothes on board, it is believed the men were planning to drive to London and then on to the Gaza Strip.

But counter-terrorism officers surrounded them near Preston, just over 20-miles into their journey.

428 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:37am

re: #308 jaunte

My dog has a soul. Now you prove she doesn't.

*rimshot*

429 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:41:59am
430 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:05am

One observation on the chick who just had octuplets:

When we meet those of the opposite sex in whom we may have a romantic interest and start asking questions, the other party's kids will almost certainly have an effect on whether we pursue this person or not.

Imagine what the babysitter will want to charge.

431 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:15am

re: #404 CharlieBravo

Most have an opinion 'against' possible candidates without mentioning the name of someone they would support. Since belief in a bible story is the litmus test for disqualification, can we decide on a couple people we can start getting behind now?

NO IT'S NOT. It's the willingness to force it in science classes.

432 x-wing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:20am

re: #306 alegrias

Did you see the article yesterday about the Doc. that did this? Here he went and put 7 embryos in a 49 yr. old woman who wanted to have one child. She is now hopitalized and prego. with quadruplets.

That Doc. needs to be behind bars NOW

433 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:32am

re: #376 Thanos

besides that iirc correctly isn't "soul" really a bad translation of an ancient word meaning "animal" ?


Etymology
Modern English soul continues Old English sáwol, sáwel, first attested in the 8th century (in Beowulf v. 2820 and in the Vespasian Psalter 77.50), cognate to other Germanic terms for the same concept, including Gothic saiwala, Old High German sêula, sêla, Old Saxon sêola, Old Low Franconian sêla, sîla, Old Norse sála. The further etymology of the Germanic word is uncertain. A common suggestion is a connection with the word sea, and from this evidence alone, it has been speculated that the early Germanic peoples believed that the spirits of deceased rested at the bottom of the sea or similar. A more recent suggestion connects it with a root for "binding", Germanic *sailian (OE sēlian, OHG seilen), related to the notion of being "bound" in death, and the practice of ritually binding or restraining the corpse of the deceased in the grave to prevent his or her return as a ghost.

The word is in any case clearly an adaptation by early missionaries to the Germanic peoples, in particular Ulfila, apostle to the Goths (4th century) of a native Germanic concept, coined as a translation of Greek ψυχή psychē "life, spirit, consciousness".

The Greek word is derived from a verb "to cool, to blow" and hence refers to the vital breath, the animating principle in humans and other animals, as opposed to σῶμα "body"

434 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:34am

re: #394 ladycatnip

#360 Thanos

Thanks for the link. Just skim-read it and will read more later, but I do know there's a fringe group out there (and I do mean fringe) who believes this stuff. Mainstream Christianity does not endorse this; thankfully they've not gathered a whole lot of steam over the last few decades - just preaching to themselves.

You are absolutely right that mainstream Christians do not follow this stuff, but on the other hand there are some sympathies that way in Christian leadership... they hide the North and Rushdoony books under the mattress so to speak. These groups have enormous clout on the right as well due to massive amounts of cash from a few individuals, and some Calvinist family foundations. (One of them also loves the confederate south and D. Duke...)

435 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:35am

re: #382 Dan G.

Agreed. Defective genes are the cause in many cases, however. There clearly are environmental factors at work as well. Long-term smoking and alcohol abuse can increase the odds of developing cancer significantly, for example.

436 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:42:48am

re: #377 MandyManners

Genes are neutral. It's what you put into a kid's mind that counts.

Is ADHD learned behavior?

437 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #409 MandyManners

I found out what it means.

And I had to put my eyeballs back in their sockets.

438 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #281 Cattt

LOL!

439 Irish Rose  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:12am

I'm away from home today and just logging in for a quick persual. I'm very glad to see this, because it needed to be said.

A true conservative respects and honors the US Constitution. He/she does not try to enshrine his/her own religious beliefs as the law of the land. There’s a name for this practice: “theocracy.” It should be repellent to anyone who really believes in conservative principles.

Huzzah!

Of course you will never be able to convince those conservatives who believe that you can't be a "true conservative" unless you're a Christian. The idea of a Christian theocracy is just fine and dandy with these folks, and they're convinced that it is their Christian responsibility to help usher it in.

These of course, are the idiots who go about telling everyone who will listen to their blather that Charles Johnson "hate Christians" ... they're ignorant, misguided fools for the most part, and best ignored.

As a Christian, I have found these intelligent conversations to be both stimulating, and fascinating. The candor of the participants is very refreshing and I learn something new every time I read through or participate in the dialogue.

As a Christian, I'm a firm believer that the creator God set the evolutionary process into motion billions of years ago... a process that continues on to this day. And I thank God every single day for modern advances in science that allow us to have an actual, physical look at the process. It strengthens my faith in a powerful way .

440 rawmuse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:21am

re: #417 Walter L. Newton

Do you want to reword that?

I support Charles 100%

441 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:28am

re: #428 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Maybe he was a moby, but I've seen that 'show me just one animal with a soul' rhetoric before, and find it supremely dopey.

442 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:29am

re: #407 rawmuse

Just a drive by quick post to say that I am behind Charles 100%.

Sure your behind him. If you had any guts you'd be out in front?
/

443 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:31am

re: #405 rightymouse

Thanks!
I saw that yesterday with the manicure link, but couldn't find this one.

444 fish  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:43:42am

re: #209 jcm

Questions from students are allowed. However the answer in science class is not "and a miracle happened."

What's worse is trying to change "and a miracle happened" into science and require it as part of the science curriculum.

I would NEVER want the answer in a science class to be"and a miracle happened" But I would hope that when the answer is "They haven't figured that bit out yet" the teacher is allowed to say just that. And discussion could ensue from there.

Charles, you are absolutely right that the "Acedemic Freedom Bills" are being written with the hope of introducing ID and religion into the classroom. However, after reading several of the bills they are written in such a way as to actually promote acedemic freedom in science. I wish the bills were more broadly written so that they could be applied to discussions of Limited Government in Political Science, The dangers of the Wellfare State in Economics and other similar topics.

445 rawmuse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:10am

re: #442 Nevergiveup

Sure your behind him. If you had any guts you'd be out in front?
/

Too late. Charles took point.

446 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:13am

re: #415 Cattt

No - our Founding Fathers were founded on their parents having sex. /had to snark this

True story--Benjamin Franklin's parents had to lie about his birthday for years. It seems the Puritans had a superstition that you were born on the day of the week your parents conceived you on. He was born on Sunday. Uh oh. Bad. So they lied.

447 TheAntichrist  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:15am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

I will totally accept the theory of evolution, when someone shows me an animal with a soul. 3/4 of a soul, will convince me just fine.

Damn, I can only prove my cat has 11/16 of a soul. I don't know how I will get through my day now knowing that for that 1/16 of a soul a 3,500 year old creation myth trumps hundreds of years of scientific evidence for MikeyHunt. Oh, the humanity!

448 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:16am

re: #439 Irish Rose

Ooohh, I don't want some theocrat looking over my shoulder. I'd take up arms against that.

449 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:28am

re: #435 quickjustice

There might be a single technological means to employ, but it will be many different manifestations of that tech. I'm betting on the combination of oligonucleotide technologies and gene transfer (so much so that I've made it a part of my career ;) ).

450 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:31am

re: #324 Charles

Is that considered a good username for a Christian, by the way?

Ah - is it a 'joke' name?

451 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:35am

re: #226 Iron Fist

I'm a gun owner but I don't like the NRA which differs on the meaning of the 2nd with the supreme court, so we have our differences here. Bush went out of his way to blur the separation of church and state without changing the constitution, and no doubt the Democrats will push the envelope too.

However the constitution remains unchanged so far, and I think that is a good thing. We can argue about it, but only when we change it to the benefit of one side (of the moment) will we really start to be in trouble.

452 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:44am

re: #440 rawmuse

I support Charles 100%

LOL

453 TheAntichrist  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:48am

re: #379 Naso Tang

There's that "wham" sound again.


Wake me up before you go-go?

454 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:48am

re: #409 MandyManners

I found out what it means.

What?
I have no clue what it means - can you say it here?

455 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:44:56am

re: #432 x-wing

Did you see the article yesterday about the Doc. that did this? Here he went and put 7 embryos in a 49 yr. old woman who wanted to have one child. She is now hopitalized and prego. with quadruplets.

That Doc. needs to be behind bars NOW

What crime has he committed?

Instead of jailing him, perhaps his license to practice medicine should be revoked.

456 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:45:04am

I'm out friends, time to celebrate with a Valentine's day brunch :)

457 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:45:10am

re: #453 TheAntichrist

Wake me up before you go-go?

I wish you wouldn't say that:

458 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #436 FightingBack

Is ADHD learned behavior?

I don't think so.

459 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:45:32am

re: #381 MandyManners

Oh, my goodness. Well, I never.

Oh m'gosh!
Y'mean there's still some innocence left?
*faints dead away*
(-:

460 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:45:34am

re: #424 realwest

It's just as important to clear out this nonsense from the GOP as they are "reforming" the party as it is to point out all the problems with the other side as well.

It's a huge problem in the GOP and I'm glad some of us have decided to fight back against the Theocrats.

I don't want the GOP to start taking on the same Theocratic stance as countries which base their political system on the Koran. They may be far more benign right now, but I don't believe in a benign Theocracy any more than I believe in any other sort of Dictatorship.

We're fighting a war against that sort of thing, remember. For it to creep into our own system is alarming, to say the least.

461 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:06am

I have NO valentines today, so, I'm looking for pity sex.

462 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:09am

re: #298 Iron Fist

His close relationship with Rev. "God Damn America!" Wright would have scuttled any Republican's chance of the nomination. As far as I can tell, Trinity Church of Christ was and is as whacko as Fred Phelps and his gaggle of moonbats.

They were just whacko in a way that the Left, when they'll admit it, likes.

* * *
Yes, IronFist, exactly. The Left approves the most abominable extremist whackos' statements, WITHOUT equal condemnation or ridicule they reserve exclusively for rightist whackos. Leftists are terrible hypocrites when it comes to religion, because they stand silent while their "religious" extremists spout lunacy & anti-American, blame America first false accusations.

463 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:25am

re: #389 Summer

Totally agreed. And to carry it even further...I'm not sure if it actually is anti-Christian to believe that animals have souls. If they didn't, wouldn't St. Francis just have been wasting his time?

I don't think people like MikeyHunt ever think these things through and are only half-sentient themselves if they don't see the "soul" in life all around them.

Heck, even as an Atheist...I appear to have more understanding and empathy of these things around me than MikeyHunt does...

How embarrassing for him.

There are three words used in the Greek for life in the Bible.
Bios - for physical biological life.
psuchea - the life of the mind, emotions, will, thoughts etc... the soul.
zoe - the divine and spiritual life, the spirit.

That's how you get Heb. 4:12 ...it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit,...
Zech. 12:1 ...and who forms the spirit of man within him,...

All life has a soul. Biblically only man has a spirit.

464 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:34am

re: #454 reine.de.tout

What?
I have no clue what it means - can you say it here?

Remove the "y" and say his name fast a few times.

465 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:35am

re: #455 MandyManners

What crime has he committed?

Instead of jailing him, perhaps his license to practice medicine should be revoked.

maybe he should be impregnated with 6 like in the movie "Junior"

466 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:43am

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

I have NO valentines today, so, I'm looking for pity sex.

Maisie?

467 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:46am

re: #458 MandyManners

I don't think so.

Me neither. So, it's genetic component in the behavioral result. I do agree that what you do with it, is what counts.

468 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:49am

re: #404 CharlieBravo

Most have an opinion 'against' possible candidates without mentioning the name of someone they would support. Since belief in a bible story is the litmus test for disqualification, can we decide on a couple people we can start getting behind now?

Way off base on this one! Who said belief in a Bible story was a litmus test? We are talking about the Constitution, that it PREVENTS establishment of religion. Religion should not be a part of the science classroom, and those politicians who are trying to push just that are wrong.

469 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:54am

re: #402 Charles

I strongly suspect that "Mikey Hunt" is a moby.

WHALE HO!
Stinky, Charles' harpoon please!

470 CharlieBravo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:54am

re: #431 MandyManners

Most have an opinion 'against' possible candidates without mentioning the name of someone they would support. Since belief in a bible story is the litmus test for disqualification, can we decide on a couple people we can start getting behind now?

"NO IT'S NOT. It's the willingness to force it in science classes".

I'm glad you understand. Do you have a candidate we can support?

471 zeebeach  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:46:55am

Good job, Charles, for getting on this subject immediately. Conservatives need to support the constitution absolutely, and that means they must oppose Mike Huckabee and all he would like to believe he stands for. I find him to be a snake oil salesman, like so many politicians, but I particularly despise him for pretending to be a Christian. What was Fox thinking when they gave this guy a forum?

472 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:47:11am

re: #439 Irish Rose

As a Christian, I'm a firm believer that the creator God set the evolutionary process into motion billions of years ago... a process that continues on to this day. And I thank God every single day for modern advances in science that allow us to have an actual, physical look at the process. It strengthens my faith in a powerful way .

Great point: atheist and believer reconciling (que birds tweeting, beatiful music, the 'ting' of champagne glasses toasting...)

473 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:47:34am

re: #466 Guanxi88

Maisie?

Maisey (spelling)

474 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:47:45am

re: #430 rwmofo

One observation on the chick who just had octuplets:

When we meet those of the opposite sex in whom we may have a romantic interest and start asking questions, the other party's kids will almost certainly have an effect on whether we pursue this person or not.

Imagine what the babysitter will want to charge.

All I know is for the past year I have tried to have one baby. Just one. Seems incredibly unfair but that is life.

475 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:47:53am

re: #450 Jimmah

I get it now.

476 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:47:54am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

Unless you explain why you picked such a sneakily offensive username, and then post comments purporting to be a "Christian," you're going to lose your account.

Apparently some people think they can play these kinds of games and fly under the radar. Well, you just flew a little too high, MikeyHunt.

477 swamprat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:04am

re: #383 Shug


America is hosed.We have elected Mr. and Mrs. Antoinette. I would pay good money to know how many years it has been since they had to get by on chicken pot pies, or macaroni and cheese, or top ramen noodles. If ever.

478 Render  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:08am

Hey fucker.

I know my dogs and cats have souls.

BEYOND
DOUBT,
R

479 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:10am

re: #465 Nevergiveup

maybe he should be impregnated with 6 like in the movie "Junior"

I wouldn't do that to six kids.

480 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:16am

re: #466 Guanxi88

Maisie?

It's spelt Maisey (it's on her green card, green card, get it, she's a green Amazon), gosh I am so clever...
/

481 eschew_obfuscation  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:23am

re: #357 Iron Fist

$600 will buy a pretty good pistol, and some ammunition. An important thing in the first term of the Obamessiah.

Hey, I actually found 100 rounds at WalMart today...woot!

/ but the shelves were pretty bare

482 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:29am

re: #454 reine.de.tout

What?
I have no clue what it means - can you say it here?

nebber mind.
I just saw the clue upthread.

483 Irish Rose  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:32am

re: #110 zombie


I regret that I have but one upding to give.
Well said, Zombie.

484 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:48:38am

re: #433 reine.de.tout

Having trouble with your quote/formatting today?

485 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:49:06am

re: #443 reine.de.tout

Thanks!
I saw that yesterday with the manicure link, but couldn't find this one.


You're welcome. I've raised 5 kids, one still at home. Never had time for a manicure. The best I could do is get out of the house twice a year or so to get my hair cut. Who is taking care of all these babies? Feeding? Changing? Something isn't right here.

486 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #467 FightingBack

Me neither. So, it's genetic component in the behavioral result. I do agree that what you do with it, is what counts.

And, it's how you deal with a kid's issues that counts.

487 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:49:21am

re: #468 Wishing

The Constitution specifically forbids religious tests for public office & that would mean either believing or not believing in something.

It is all in the garbage.

488 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:49:46am

re: #470 CharlieBravo

Most have an opinion 'against' possible candidates without mentioning the name of someone they would support. Since belief in a bible story is the litmus test for disqualification, can we decide on a couple people we can start getting behind now?

"NO IT'S NOT. It's the willingness to force it in science classes".

I'm glad you understand. Do you have a candidate we can support?

Rudy.

489 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:49:57am

re: #479 MandyManners

I wouldn't do that to six kids.

Good point.

490 Irish Rose  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:49:59am

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

I have NO valentines today, so, I'm looking for pity sex.

Happy Valentines' Day, Walter :).

491 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:50:10am

re: #305 Shug

Regarding Michelle Obama's comment on Bush's 600 dollar "stimulus checks" being so small aod worthless

"What can you buy with 600$, a pair of earrings?"

Can you imagine what would have happened if Cindy McCain or Sarah Palin would have said that?

* * *
Neither Sarah Palin nor Cindy McCain come from cultures that accept taxpayer welfare checks as a birthright--to be used for jewelry, plastic surgery to become Angelina Jolie-like, or IVF treatments, like in California and other welfare states.

492 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:50:18am

re: #484 Naso Tang

Having trouble with your quote/formatting today?

Yes, I am!
Having some spelling and typo probs lately, too.
Must be my age catching up to me.

493 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:50:52am

re: #421 Wishing

Thank you, but really, I'm the lucky one. I have exactly the family I always dreamed about...the hoops to jump through were difficult, but worth it in the end.
The octo-mom topic is just a particularly hot button for me. Those poor children.

494 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:50:53am

re: #476 Charles

Charles, I'd like to change my nic to my real name, Jim Nasium. That is all, good day sir.

Regards, Jim

495 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:51:23am

re: #482 reine.de.tout

nebber mind.
I just saw the clue upthread.


lol!

496 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:51:33am

re: #356 rwmofo

Remove the y.

Is he a 7th grader?

497 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:51:43am

re: #485 rightymouse

You're welcome. I've raised 5 kids, one still at home. Never had time for a manicure. The best I could do is get out of the house twice a year or so to get my hair cut. Who is taking care of all these babies? Feeding? Changing? Something isn't right here.

Yes, that's what I recall. And I only had one kid.
She was eight before I could get a manicure again.
Who is taking care of these babies?
The fathers? Who?

498 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:51:51am

re: #484 Naso Tang

Having trouble with your quote/formatting today?

lol. Always good to draw attention to someones quote-formatting shame.

499 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:51:58am

re: #489 Nevergiveup

Good point.

The Goslings have eight kids, and they absolutely cannot cope alone right now.

500 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:52:15am

It's sad. Since learning more about evolution, biology, and science I have found my respect for ALL of Life in it's various forms has increased, not decreased. Now- I'm even cautious enough to avoid stepping on insects, should I happen to see them, when I'm walking down the street.

Science helps exalt Life, not diminish it.

501 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:52:27am

I hear the woosh woosh of the smiting stick coming...

502 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:52:59am

IDF renounces general's comments
Remarks made by Maj. Gen. Avi Mizrahi alluding to Turkish oppression of Kurds, Armenians rejected by army in statement. Comments were in reaction to Ankara criticism of Israel's Gaza operation

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

I don't he said anything wrong. Maybe not PC, but dam accurate.

503 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:13am

re: #501 WhiteRasta

Louisville Slugger

504 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:24am

Amen to the first three paragraphs.

As for the fourth, you are a little Darwin-centric you know. It gets a little creepy. Try a little John Clerk Maxwell, Humphry Davy or Bourbaki every once in a while.

505 Irish Rose  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:33am

re: #500 Sharmuta

It's sad. Since learning more about evolution, biology, and science I have found my respect for ALL of Life in it's various forms has increased, not decreased. Now- I'm even cautious enough to avoid stepping on insects, should I happen to see them, when I'm walking down the street.

Science helps exalt Life, not diminish it.

Amen.

506 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:37am

re: #494 BigPapa

We had a dog and he had 2 names: Shut up and outside!

507 Sunlight  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:44am

Things have gotten so strange... thinks I thought I knew about either weren't really that way or are morphing into some sort of pre-historical tribalism. Exhausting.

508 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:46am

re: #491 alegrias

* * *
Neither Sarah Palin nor Cindy McCain come from cultures that accept taxpayer welfare checks as a birthright--to be used for jewelry, plastic surgery to become Angelina Jolie-like, or IVF treatments, like in California and other welfare states.

I found out last night that I won't get a tax break from the stimulus. At first I was a tad disappointed then when I realized my mom raised me on welfare, I realized that it is a good thing and means I made $$$. Welfare destroyed my mom, made her lazy yes I know it was her issue but as a child, I often wished it were NOT available so she would find a job. I worked as soon as I legally could.

509 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:53:56am

re: #498 Jimmah

lol. Always good to draw attention to someones quote-formatting shame.

LOL!
And it was my shame.
But I figure if that's the most idiotic and stupid thing I ever do here, I'll be doing OK.

510 CharlieBravo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:54:17am

re: #488 MandyManners

Thanks, I kinda like Rudy too. But he didn't seem to have his heart set on it and will probably be less inclined 4 years from now. Anyone else?

511 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:54:27am

re: #508 Afrocity

Hats off to you

512 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:54:44am

re: #504 Cato

Don't be a critic if you can't count.

513 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:54:47am

re: #504 Cato

Amen to the first three paragraphs.

As for the fourth, you are a little Darwin-centric you know. It gets a little creepy. Try a little John Clerk Maxwell, Humphry Davy or Bourbaki every once in a while.

Try a clue bat on for size. WHACK.

514 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:54:55am
515 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:04am

re: #507 Sunlight

Things have gotten so strange... thinks I thought I knew about either weren't really that way or are morphing into some sort of pre-historical tribalism. Exhausting.

Eh, Life During Wartime:

What else can you expect?
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooin' around.

516 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:18am

re: #497 reine.de.tout

Yes, that's what I recall. And I only had one kid.
She was eight before I could get a manicure again.
Who is taking care of these babies?
The fathers? Who?

Far as I know, there are no daddies involved?

Babies require constant care. Am at a loss as to what in the world she thinks she's doing.

517 rwmofo  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:28am

re: #474 Afrocity

All I know is for the past year I have tried to have one baby. Just one. Seems incredibly unfair but that is life.

Good luck. Keep the bar high and try to imagine what the father will be like in 5, 10, 15 years. As a father who married twice and had two boys when I was in my 20s, my biggest regret was not thinking ahead and considering if I was going to be compatible with my boys' moms. It would have been a lot easier if the boys had their mom and dad together all the time instead of weekends, etc.

518 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:28am

re: #500 Sharmuta

It's sad. Since learning more about evolution, biology, and science I have found my respect for ALL of Life in it's various forms has increased, not decreased. Now- I'm even cautious enough to avoid stepping on insects, should I happen to see them, when I'm walking down the street.

Science helps exalt Life, not diminish it.

I still squish spiders in my house to a pulp.

519 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:28am

re: #514 ploome hineni


fillet

Morning. Happy Valentines Day!

520 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:30am

I meant amen to the first four paragraphs.

521 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:44am

re: #514 ploome hineni

LOL ROTFL

522 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:55:46am

re: #425 jaunte

The same people are usually outraged when you tell them they're acting like radical islamists.

I threw this one into the ONT this AM.
Think I oughta copy it into boilerplate?

523 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:00am

re: #510 CharlieBravo

Thanks, I kinda like Rudy too. But he didn't seem to have his heart set on it and will probably be less inclined 4 years from now. Anyone else?

No one at the time.

524 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:06am

re: #343 MandyManners

Who is Mikey Hunt?

Delete the "y" in Mikey.

525 Sunlight  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:14am

re: #403 quickjustice

George Washington, an Episcopalian, addressed many diverse groups of U.S. citizens, including Jews. He always referred to an omnipotent Creator in his speeches, but was careful to avoid sectarian and divisive religious issues that might divide and offend his audience.

He'd be a great role model for many of the religious people who visit this site.

Have you read his letter at Tuaro Synagogue in Newport, R.I.? What is happening in the privacy of people's places of worship? George Washington wouldn't recognize the place.

526 theheat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:42am

re: #497 reine.de.tout

Considering at least three of her existing six children are reported to have disabilities, I would be concerned for all of them. She's living with her parents in a 3 bedroom house, according to the news. No job, no husband, and a pretty effed up perception of reality, given all the tweaking she's done to her face in light of her circumstances.

I'd go so far as to say she's nuts. Those kids need to get the hell out of there. She's not stable in any sense of the word.

527 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:43am

re: #522 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, that will come in handy!

528 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:45am

re: #500 Sharmuta

It's sad. Since learning more about evolution, biology, and science I have found my respect for ALL of Life in it's various forms has increased, not decreased. Now- I'm even cautious enough to avoid stepping on insects, should I happen to see them, when I'm walking down the street.

Science helps exalt Life, not diminish it.

And man using his God-given intelligence and curiosity to seek out knowledge and answers also exalts life.

What diminishes life is ignoring or failing to use those gifts God has given us.

529 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:49am

re: #325 MandyManners

I could be wrong but, her father is a Palestinian and she's an American.

* * * *
Thank you I stand corrected, that Heinz 57 California lowlife welfare queen taxpayer funded IVF-science propagater of poor children.

530 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:56:57am

re: #516 rightymouse

Far as I know, there are no daddies involved?

Babies require constant care. Am at a loss as to what in the world she thinks she's doing.

Stay Up Late:

See, David Byrne wrote a song for just about anything.

531 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:57:03am
532 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:57:06am

re: #517 rwmofo

I would be using a donor. I am on my own on this one. Put too much time into career and not enough into starting a family.

533 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:57:09am
534 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:57:10am

re: #504 Cato

John Clerk Maxwell, Humphry Davy or Bourbaki

Who are they?

535 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:57:23am

re: #518 MandyManners

I still squish spiders in my house to a pulp.

I leave them alone if they stay out of my way, since they eat other bugs. It's the centipedes you gotta kill, because they kill the spiders. If the spider invades my space though- out the door it goes.

536 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:57:59am

re: #525 Sunlight

I haven't heard of that letter, can you post it?

537 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:14am

re: #524 tommygum

Delete the "y" in Mikey.

Done did.

538 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:25am

'MikeyHunt' and his sneaky username are out of here.

539 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:39am

re: #332 Afrocity

She really said that? You could also buy $600 worth of arugula.

The kind of earrings I buy, $600 would buy a whole store full of earrings.

540 Golem33  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:41am

"A true conservative respects and honors the US Constitution. He/she does not try to enshrine his/her own religious beliefs as the law of the land. There’s a name for this practice: “theocracy.” It should be repellent to anyone who really believes in conservative principles."

I'm really opposed to the idea of frivolous amendments to the Constitution - period. And several have come from my party over the last few years.

541 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:45am

re: #538 Charles

Thank you

542 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:51am

re: #474 Afrocity
Keep your chin up, sweetie. There are lots of ways to bring a child into your life. You'll find one that works for you if you keep looking.

543 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:58:59am

re: #529 alegrias

* * * *
Thank you I stand corrected, that Heinz 57 California lowlife welfare queen taxpayer funded IVF-science propagater of poor children.

Why mention race at all? It's utterly irrelevant.

544 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:00am

re: #536 Ojoe

Ojoe, You a fan of Thomas Merton? You know Columbia has his collection? I used to work on it.

545 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:07am

re: #535 Sharmuta

I leave them alone if they stay out of my way, since they eat other bugs. It's the centipedes you gotta kill, because they kill the spiders. If the spider invades my space though- out the door it goes.

basically with 3 cats, anything that crawls or flys into our house is on it's own.

546 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:14am

re: #538 Charles

'MikeyHunt' and his sneaky username are out of here.

Yes, Slippery People:

547 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:29am

Great quote:
Rabbi Shimshon Rafael Hirsch (19th century Germany) further explains that each "Day" represents a specific stage of creation - i.e. a mingling of raw materials and bursts of dramatic new development. As you go through the Torah's account, you see described a gradual process from simple to more complex organisms - first a mass of swirling gasses, then water, then the emergence of dry land, followed by plants, fish, birds, animals, and finally, human beings. This pattern may be similar to the evolutionary process proposed by science.
link

548 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:32am

re: #500 Sharmuta

It's sad. Since learning more about evolution, biology, and science I have found my respect for ALL of Life in it's various forms has increased, not decreased. Now- I'm even cautious enough to avoid stepping on insects, should I happen to see them, when I'm walking down the street.

Science helps exalt Life, not diminish it.


Is it ok if I still kill snakes on sight without checking markings first?

Seriously, I do know what you mean. Also, when one has children, it's important to teach them the value of living things and to have some respect.

/except ants in the kitchen. My hypocrisy is glaring on this one. And I don't care much about that.

549 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:32am

re: #509 reine.de.tout

I just think it's good that you're able to talk about this so openly. In the old days, I daresay you would have been sent away somewhere and the whole thing hushed up. ;)

550 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:42am
551 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:43am

re: #535 Sharmuta

I leave them alone if they stay out of my way, since they eat other bugs. It's the centipedes you gotta kill, because they kill the spiders. If the spider invades my space though- out the door it goes.

My grandfather was killed by a brown recluse.

552 M. Bensson-Levi  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:59:53am

I used to buy souls. No joke here. When I was in college I used to buy souls. I'd get some one on the topic and I'd eventually get around to getting them to sell me their soul for a penny. Most of them had this notion that we had to have some sort of ritual, or signing in blood type thing, but I said, "No, just write out that you've sold me your soul for a penny, and sign it, and I'll give you a penny. No need for anything more elaborate than that." I had perhaps 30 or 40 folks do that. It was so easy that I couldn't believe it. Of course, this was the late 60's, early 70's, so lots of foolishness was in the air...and the water, and assorted other things.

About 2/3 to 3/4 of them were back within a day or two, asking for their souls back. Not kidding here now. That's when the fun started. I would refuse to return it. Some people actually went dangerously nuts on me. I eventually returned the souls of all who asked for them back. Some were even afraid to destroy the paper that the sale was recorded on.

I really had a blast doing that. It was an interesting little hobby.

There's no point here. It's just for your consideration.

553 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:07am

re: #538 Charles

'MikeyHunt' and his sneaky username are out of here.

THANK YOU!

554 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:13am

re: #339 amused

To me, Islam is a political system masquerading as a religion. It confers upon its leaders the divine right to rule. The European version of the divine right to rule is what the founding fathers objected to when founding America. So to me, the religious wing of the Republican party wants to make America look like the Islamic theocracies of the Middle East. And until the Republican party repudiates the religious right, I can never vote Republican even though I agree with many of its better ideas.

* * *
thank you so much for electing Obama by your valuable assistance from the sidelines

555 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:14am

re: #538 Charles

'MikeyHunt' and his sneaky username are out of here.

I'm 54 and that sneaky nickname went right over my head. I really gotta get out more?

556 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:27am

re: #548 rightymouse

I hate snakes- they scare the crap out of me.

557 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:28am

re: #494 BigPapa

Charles, I'd like to change my nic to my real name, Jim Nasium. That is all, good day sir.

Regards, Jim

I would also like to change my nic to my real name, Eric Swawn. My friends call me Big Eric Shawn.

558 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:29am

re: #531 ploome hineni

see

that's my problem

Well, and that gremlin who gets into your keyboard and cauSeS yoU to tYpe liKe thiS somEtimEs.

559 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:30am

re: #504 Cato

Amen to the first three paragraphs.

As for the fourth, you are a little Darwin-centric you know. It gets a little creepy. Try a little John Clerk Maxwell, Humphry Davy or Bourbaki every once in a while.

It might be a little more convincing if you actually got James Clerk Maxwell's name right.

And then again, maybe not.

560 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:57am

re: #548 rightymouse

Is it ok if I still kill snakes on sight without checking markings first?

Seriously, I do know what you mean. Also, when one has children, it's important to teach them the value of living things and to have some respect.

/except ants in the kitchen. My hypocrisy is glaring on this one. And I don't care much about that.

Yep only good snake is a dead snake. I have Eve's back on this one.

561 Irish Rose  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:58am

Have a pleasant day, folks, and happy Valentines Day to all.

The fiance and I are having a quiet weekend away and have dinner, champagne and a hot tub on tap for tonight.

Later :).

562 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:00:59am

re: #538 Charles

'MikeyHunt' and his sneaky username are out of here.

Charles, how many trolls have you whacked in the past week? Seems like there has been quite a few; more than usual by my reckoning.

563 Sunlight  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:01:13am

Also, I've been thinking lately that the church people feel that their way saves souls and, since they can't attract/maintain the numbers they want, they are aiming to use the schools to make their message the dominant philosophy in the U.S. Who else has done this? The Left. And how is that working out?

564 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:01:26am

re: #551 MandyManners

That's understandable. I still have a spider bite scar I received as a little girl.

565 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:02:26am

re: #506 WhiteRasta

We had a dog and he had 2 names: Shut up and outside!

Better than come-here and stay.

566 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:02:49am

re: #564 Sharmuta

That's understandable. I still have a spider bite scar I received as a little girl.

Big spider?

567 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:02:55am

re: #563 Sunlight

Also, I've been thinking lately that the church people feel that their way saves souls and, since they can't attract/maintain the numbers they want, they are aiming to use the schools to make their message the dominant philosophy in the U.S. Who else has done this? The Left. And how is that working out?

Not sure which church people you're talking about.
Not the case in my church.

568 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:03:00am

re: #370 Sharmuta

Are you calling me a right-wing anarchist?

No. I'm saying that the cries from the 'right' about 'less intrusive' government are not from conservatives generally. The conservative stance has been 'smaller' government, which doesn't inherently make it less intrusive.

Intrusiveness is a non-issue. Conservatives supported The Patriot Act by a massive margin, and they supported Bush's wiretapping programs by a similarly wide margin. Neither of those things can be reasonably construed to be 'less intrusive' uses of government power.

Likewise, historically conservatives were also pro-FBI, pro-RICO, pro-Drug Enforcement, the list goes on and on. If conservatives are really against 'intrusiveness' in the modern era then it certainly would be an extremely selective use of the word. It would in fact be just about as hypocritical as 'small government, but legislate my morality/religion no matter the cost'.

569 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:03:21am

re: #539 reine.de.tout

The kind of earrings I buy, $600 would buy a whole store full of earrings.

MO makes a lot of "let them eat cake" statements. Whatever the US equivalent of the Bastille is either symbolically or physically, I expect to see the Obamas in it.

570 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:03:38am
571 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:03:39am

re: #534 MandyManners

Scientists. In the case of Bourbaki, numerous mathematicians.

re: #547 Wishing

No one who knows that much about Rabbi Hirsch should be on a computer on the Sabbath.

572 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:03:45am

re: #565 screaming_eagle

Better than come-here and stay.

The Kid's beginning to think that his name is "Shut the Fridge".

573 eschew_obfuscation  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:03:56am

re: #458 MandyManners

I don't think so.

My son had ADHD and has outgrown most of it. If you're truly hyperactive, it persists during sleep. You'll often wake up and find all of the covers on the floor having been tossing and turning in your sleep all night.

574 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:05am

re: #566 MandyManners

I don't know. I woke up with it while visiting my auntie. At the time she was dating a doctor who looked at it and helped us to treat it, but the little scar is still there on my foot.

575 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:39am
576 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:41am

re: #535 Sharmuta

I leave them alone if they stay out of my way, since they eat other bugs. It's the centipedes you gotta kill, because they kill the spiders. If the spider invades my space though- out the door it goes.


You actually catch the spiders to get them outside? **shudder**

We get enormous spiders here from time to time - big old furry things. YUCK!

577 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:48am

re: #544 Afrocity

Yes I am a big fan of Thomas Merton. I read Seven Story Mountain when I was a teenager; my grandma's copy of the book. & There recently was published the "Thomas Merton Book of Hours" & I have it by my bedside.

How honored to be curator of his writings.

578 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:51am

re: #392 EmmmieG

Amen!

579 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:54am

re: #573 eschew_obfuscation

Ritalin Cures Next Picasso.

;)

580 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:04:57am
581 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:05:25am

re: #570 ploome hineni

it is a very small laptop, and somtimes I hit two keys at once

and I type using 3-4 fingers anyway

:-)
I was just kidding.
I love it when you type that way.
A party for the eyes, I think somebody said once.

582 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:05:39am

re: #460 Summer
OK, let me make it as clear as I can: I don't see the "Theocrats" trying to take over the Republican Party as being as BIG and more importantly IMMEDIATE problem as those who would give up the WoT, who would allow Bill Ayer's viewpoints to be taught in the public schools and who would fundamentally change this country by any means they can.
And I don't even know who it is (other than some of us out here on LGF and Michael Steele) that are trying to reform the Republican Party. I believe in our Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights. I'm unaware of any other democracy which has the Bill of Rights (e.g., Canada and Freedom of Speech).
I believe in religious freedom and don't want anyone's religion taught in public schools, whether as science or "history" or anything else. I also believe in Evolution and so far as science courses go, it MUST be taught in our public schools.
I reckon the difference is in the IMMEDIACY of the problems we face, as a Nation (forget for a moment Republican or Democrat or Ron Paul). And I don't see creationism/ID as being as much of an immediate problem as is the Democrat's agenda.

583 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:05:50am

re: #552 M. Bensson-Levi

I used to buy souls. No joke here. When I was in college I used to buy souls. I'd get some one on the topic and I'd eventually get around to getting them to sell me their soul for a penny. Most of them had this notion that we had to have some sort of ritual, or signing in blood type thing, but I said, "No, just write out that you've sold me your soul for a penny, and sign it, and I'll give you a penny. No need for anything more elaborate than that." I had perhaps 30 or 40 folks do that. It was so easy that I couldn't believe it. Of course, this was the late 60's, early 70's, so lots of foolishness was in the air...and the water, and assorted other things.

About 2/3 to 3/4 of them were back within a day or two, asking for their souls back. Not kidding here now. That's when the fun started. I would refuse to return it. Some people actually went dangerously nuts on me. I eventually returned the souls of all who asked for them back. Some were even afraid to destroy the paper that the sale was recorded on.

I really had a blast doing that. It was an interesting little hobby.

There's no point here. It's just for your consideration.

There was a movie (name forgotten, maybe Highway 51?) in which the presumed devil bought souls then took a polaroid picture of the seller. At the end, he was trapped in a burning frame house, in which all of the polaroids had been neatly tacked up to cover the entire interior. they burned along with him. Spooky scene.

584 Sunlight  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:00am

re: #567 reine.de.tout

Not sure which church people you're talking about.
Not the case in my church.

That's good. I'm talking about the type of church that convinced my mom that her grandchildren are going to burn in hell because they are Jewish. Well, not Jewish enough for some others. And the ones Charles keeps busting for trying to divert science education. So I'm about sick of all of it.

585 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:09am

re: #571 Cato

Scientists. In the case of Bourbaki, numerous mathematicians.

Mathematicians from the 19th century, to be precise.

586 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:10am
587 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:14am

re: #559 Charles

Quite right Fred.

588 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:34am

re: #571 Cato

Scientists. In the case of Bourbaki, numerous mathematicians.

re: #547 Wishing

No one who knows that much about Rabbi Hirsch should be on a computer on the Sabbath.

Oh, noez. Not da maffs. I gotsta tak off mah shoooz fer dat.

589 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:43am

re: #568 Scion9

No. I'm saying that the cries from the 'right' about 'less intrusive' government are not from conservatives generally. The conservative stance has been 'smaller' government, which doesn't inherently make it less intrusive.

Intrusiveness is a non-issue. Conservatives supported The Patriot Act by a massive margin, and they supported Bush's wiretapping programs by a similarly wide margin. Neither of those things can be reasonably construed to be 'less intrusive' uses of government power.

Likewise, historically conservatives were also pro-FBI, pro-RICO, pro-Drug Enforcement, the list goes on and on. If conservatives are really against 'intrusiveness' in the modern era then it certainly would be an extremely selective use of the word. It would in fact be just about as hypocritical as 'small government, but legislate my morality/religion no matter the cost'.

That's a fair enough point. But in the case of law enforcement, it's the government's main job to protect the citizenry. There are layers of protections designed to still protect the citizens from the government over reaching and intruding without just cause.

590 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:47am

re: #587 Cato

Hard time with names today, eh?

591 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:50am

re: #556 Sharmuta

I hate snakes- they scare the crap out of me.

Me too.

592 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:06:53am

re: #538 Charles

'MikeyHunt' and his sneaky username are out of here.


Thanks, MH. Your testimony is an example of WHAT NOT TO DO!
Think about what you've managed to accomplish. Have you done anything to advance the Gospel, present Christ in a positive light? No, you chosen to be do the opposite, be argumentative, to be offensive.

You've done more damage than good.

593 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:16am

re: #555 Nevergiveup

I'm 54 and that sneaky nickname went right over my head. I really gotta get out more?

I had to follow Charles' link...

594 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:29am

re: #573 eschew_obfuscation

My son had ADHD and has outgrown most of it. If you're truly hyperactive, it persists during sleep. You'll often wake up and find all of the covers on the floor having been tossing and turning in your sleep all night.

That's not on the Conners' list but, his bed is a mess in the morning.

595 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:36am

Later all, I've got some cells that need attention.

596 Gitarzan  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:38am

re: #324 Charles

Is that considered a good username for a Christian, by the way?

And not very original to boot...

597 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:44am

re: #572 MandyManners

The Kid's beginning to think that his name is "Shut the Fridge".

You need one of these.

598 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:45am

Back Later - saturday chores do call.

599 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:47am

re: #397 Cattt

I read that. Lol. Hold on - I'm going to go try to look like Marilyn Monroe. /

Schwing!

600 lurking faith  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:07:50am

re: #551 MandyManners

The brown recluse scares me more than any other spider, and most creepy critters. Probably because I figure it's the one most likely for me to stumble across, all unsuspecting.

601 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:08:09am

re: #590 Dan G.

Hard time with names today, eh?

He's another "not a creationist" who just happens to post one creationist talking point after another.

602 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:08:17am

re: #571 Cato

Scientists. In the case of Bourbaki, numerous mathematicians.

re: #547 Wishing

No one who knows that much about Rabbi Hirsch should be on a computer on the Sabbath.

Really? I love his works on the Hebrew language as well.

603 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:08:25am

re: #574 Sharmuta

I don't know. I woke up with it while visiting my auntie. At the time she was dating a doctor who looked at it and helped us to treat it, but the little scar is still there on my foot.

All this spider talk has given me the heebeejeebees. I'm squirming.

604 Render  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:09:18am

re: #585 Charles

Didn't Maxwell invent color photography as well? Or was that a different Maxwell?

SILVER
HAMMER,
R

605 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:09:22am

re: #576 rightymouse

You actually catch the spiders to get them outside? **shudder**

We get enormous spiders here from time to time - big old furry things. YUCK!

Only if I can catch them in a manner where neither of us gets hurt. They intrude on my space, all bets are off. I had one join me in the shower one day... he got sent down the drain.

606 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:09:26am

re: #551 MandyManners

My grandfather was killed by a brown recluse.

Spidist!

607 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:09:29am

re: #603 MandyManners

All this spider talk has given me the heebeejeebees. I'm squirming.


So, they'll have spiders in room 101 for you, eh? For me, centipedes - the sight of them makes me go into this wretching fury and I have to destroy them and then go be queasy for a while.

608 Haverwilde  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:09:40am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

But we can be civil in our disagreements , can't we?

Can we please get past this canard/Lie that the constitution is based on Christian Principles?
I am a Christian. I don't agree with many of the principles that others have listed as 'Christian' but still they need to be mentioned.

One Christian principle that I see enshrined in the original constitution is the acceptance of slavery.
Another is an emphasis on working together in peace.

But take a look at what others have listed as Christian Principles where do you see them in our constitution?

The key principles of Christianity (i.e. the Kingdom of Heaven where Christ is King) according to Scripture are based on: (Wikipedia)
1. Humility or faith and trust in God
2. Communication with God through prayer and self-denial
3. Observance of The Law which is written in Scripture and in the hearts of those who love the truth

Christian Principles (National Council of Churches for candidates for election)
(Abbreviated)
1. War is contrary to the will of God. ….
2. God calls us to live in communities shaped by peace and cooperation. ….
3. God created us for each other, and thus our security depends on the well-being of our global neighbors. …
4. God calls us to be advocates for those who are most vulnerable in our society. … to reduce the growing disparity between rich and poor.
5. Each human being is created in the image of God and is of infinite worth. …
6. The earth belongs to God and is intrinsically good. …
7. Christians have a biblical mandate to welcome strangers. ….
8. Those who follow Christ are called to heal the sick. …
9. Because of the transforming power of God’s grace, all humans are called to be in right relationship with each other. …
10. Providing enriched learning environments for all of God’s children is a moral imperative. …

Quotes from our founding fathers: (lost the reference)

Thomas Jefferson-
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Abraham Lincoln -
“The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

John Adams -
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and... foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.”

609 theheat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:09:51am

re: #582 realwest

And I don't see creationism/ID as being as much of an immediate problem as is the Democrat's agenda.

It's a multi-headed snake. The Dems' agenda is out there in the open, and people are fighting it. I can't remember when conservatives weren't fighting a liberal agenda. However, there's evidence that further polarization has escalated the agenda of the theocrats that happen to reside on the right side of politics, and it should not be ignored.

Neither one can be ignored. Both are epic catastrophes.

610 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:10:07am

re: #585 Charles


I figured since you liked 19th century naturalists, you might like the mathematicians of that time too. BTW, why not more on Wallace? He gets left out of the conversation as much as Leiniz does on the calculus.

611 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:10:08am

re: #601 Charles

Noticed that. Also noticed his admonition to those breaking the sabbath.

612 eschew_obfuscation  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:10:13am

re: #580 Iron Fist

I talked with the clerk at our Wally World eariler this week. he said that they get in a couple of shipments of ammo a week, but that it is selling out almost as quickly as they can stock the shelves. Even parts are in short supply right now. I've got a couple of things on backorder right now that aren't firearms per se, but are related.

Hopfully Obama and the Donks will look at the massive preparations for civil disobediance that are going on right now (people aren't buying ammunition to the tune of tens of thousands of rounds with the intent of turning it all in if the Democrats decide that they should do so), and decide that they have better issues to expend political capital on.

Agree totally ... I some times beat myself up as being paranoid, but that doesn't last long ;~)

613 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:10:15am

re: #604 Render

I think he had something to do with electricity. I could google but I'm lazy.

614 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:10:41am

re: #569 Afrocity

MO makes a lot of "let them eat cake" statements. Whatever the US equivalent of the Bastille is either symbolically or physically, I expect to see the Obamas in it.

Well, considering what the Bastille itself was symbolic of to the French peasantry, if Michelle and Barry keep up their game over the next 4-8 years, the American symbol of bourgeoisie oppression and excess might just be the White House unfortunately.

615 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:10:46am

re: #597 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You need one of these.

Awww.

616 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:11:10am

re: #586 ploome hineni

the 'CHURCH' as representing organized religion

draining members

Some churches are losing, some are gaining. For example, my grandmother raised four children in the Presbyterian church. Right now, my one is an active Mormon, one is an active Evangelical (religion does NOT get discussed at family gatherings), one made up his own philosophy, and one would probably self-identify as Presbyterian, but does not ever attend a church.

Four kids--none of them attend the Presbyterian church.

617 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #600 lurking faith

The brown recluse scares me more than any other spider, and most creepy critters. Probably because I figure it's the one most likely for me to stumble across, all unsuspecting.

As the name indicates, they're shy spiders so you probably won't find it in the open.

618 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:11:43am

re: #598 Ojoe

bye Ojoe

I haven't any chores but I should do something productive. I have a presentation coming up in a month, I could work on that but this gloomy day makes me feel like just watching DVDs and getting Mexican take out. Plus Obama is back in Chicago which means security is tight around my neighborhood...(yawn)

619 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #610 Cato

I figured since you liked 19th century naturalists, you might like the mathematicians of that time too. BTW, why not more on Wallace? He gets left out of the conversation as much as Leiniz does on the calculus.

Maybe because no one is trying to sneak the teaching of religious mathematics into science classes, ya think?

620 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:12:30am

re: #606 debutaunt

Spidist!

NO MORE! PLEASE. NO MORE.

621 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #533 Iron Fist

You know more than I, obviously, on this matter and I guess I pay more attention to creationism/ID than gun control.

I believe every responsible person should be allowed to own guns, but I also believe that the only way to know if someone is responsible is to have licensing, which I get the impression the NRA doesn't want, particularly not controlled by "jack booted thugs"; and I don't believe in militias in the USA.

Beyond that, under the right controlled circumstances and if one can afford it one should be able to buy a decommissioned F14 Tomcat with working guns and load it up.

622 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:12:44am

re: #603 MandyManners

All this spider talk has given me the heebeejeebees. I'm squirming.

I am scared to death of clowns. If a clown intrudes in my house I swear to G-d I'll shoot the m*ther f^cker! I won't bother to catch and release outside.

623 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:12:53am

re: #610 Cato

Name-dropping doesn't work if you fuck the names up.

Calculus: Leibniz
?: Leiniz

624 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:13:04am

re: #591 rightymouse

Don't get me wrong- I'm not turning into an animal rights whacko! Had to drown some chipmunks ruining my garden a few years ago. I didn't like it, but they were causing extensive damage to expensive plants, and trapping them to move elsewhere can be deadly to them since they don't know where their stores of food are. Then there's mice. Plenty of critters I would still deal with harshly if they pose a problem.

625 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:13:26am

re: #605 Sharmuta

Only if I can catch them in a manner where neither of us gets hurt. They intrude on my space, all bets are off. I had one join me in the shower one day... he got sent down the drain.

OMG - that would have creeped me out so badly! There was a big furry one in the bathroom not too long ago that was sent to spider heaven by the bottom of a boot.

626 tommygum  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:13:29am

re: #429 Iron Fist

I was in a band one time that seriously considered naming itself "Stiff Richard". We had all kinds of amusing gags that could be played with that name. We never really went anywhere, though. Story of my (musical) life.

My band was called (briefly) Beefpipe.

627 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:13:35am

re: #608 Haverwilde

The problem is that many Christians are starting to feel persecuted. Religion is losing ground in the Western world and Churches don't have the political and social influence that they used to have. They are inventing conspiracy theories about being persecuted and claiming credit for past success of Western culture to get the believers riled up.

628 Render  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:13:36am

I can promise you that the IDF does fight on Saturdays.

SO
DO
I,
R

629 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:13:54am

re: #615 MandyManners

Awww.

He's laying in wait for goddess.
heh

630 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #610 Cato

Why focus on that ol' grudge match, Archimedes may have scooped them both.

631 realwest  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:14:26am

Well y'all it's been educational as usual, but I gotta go eat some lunch, medicate and nap!
Hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

632 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:14:34am

re: #611 Dan G.

Noticed that. Also noticed his admonition to those breaking the sabbath.

As if anyone who knows a lot about Judaism must be Jewish.

633 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:08am

re: #537 MandyManners

Done did.

Some people must really slur their words in their mind. I kind of guessed that but for the life of me couldn't make myself say it and be a smartass.

634 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:14am

re: #632 MandyManners

As if anyone who knows a lot about Judaism must be Jewish.

Or maybe they eat alot of Rye Bread?

635 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:28am

re: #631 realwest

Well y'all it's been educational as usual, but I gotta go eat some lunch, medicate and nap!
Hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

Enjoy the nap.!

636 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #619 Charles

Wallace. I asked about Wallace, not Leibniz. (I try to mention Leibniz as much as I can because the Monadonology is such a fine work).

637 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:46am

re: #631 realwest

Rest well, realwest!

638 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:48am

re: #622 Truck Monkey

I am scared to death of clowns. If a clown intrudes in my house I swear to G-d I'll shoot the m*ther f^cker! I won't bother to catch and release outside.

I've heard of that phobia. Any idea what caused it?

639 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:50am

re: #612 eschew_obfuscation

Agree totally ... I some times beat myself up as being paranoid, but that doesn't last long ;~)

[Link: www.last.fm...]

640 KansasMom  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:51am

Time for lunch!
Happy Valentines Day, lizards!

641 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:15:51am

re: #634 Nevergiveup

Or maybe they eat alot of Rye Bread?

Or like Chicken Soup.

642 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:09am

re: #629 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He's laying in wait for goddess.
heh

One for you to file for later.

643 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:17am

re: #619 Charles

Maybe because no one is trying to sneak the teaching of religious mathematics into science classes, ya think?



Well, I don't know if you could technically call it a religion, but it comes pretty damn close.

644 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:23am

re: #565 screaming_eagle

We had another dog we called Locksmith: Every time you kicked him, he'd make a bolt for the door.

(Joke.)

645 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:24am

re: #624 Sharmuta

Don't get me wrong- I'm not turning into an animal rights whacko! Had to drown some chipmunks ruining my garden a few years ago. I didn't like it, but they were causing extensive damage to expensive plants, and trapping them to move elsewhere can be deadly to them since they don't know where their stores of food are. Then there's mice. Plenty of critters I would still deal with harshly if they pose a problem.

What? How?

646 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:25am

re: #623 Dan G.


Spilled soda on my keyboard, Some letters are fked up.

647 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:56am

re: #621 Naso Tang

Beyond that, under the right controlled circumstances and if one can afford it one should be able to buy a decommissioned F14 Tomcat with working guns and load it up.

To hell with the Unicorn, I'll take the F14 Pres Obama.

648 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:16:57am

re: #608 Haverwilde

And they hate it when it gets pointed out that our government was established as secular for a reason. They really, really hate it when the Founders get yanked away from them with the historical record. Just goes to show how much all of our education could stand improvement.

649 Wishing  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:17:14am

I am off to help an elderly couple install a dvd player in their PC. We bought it for them when we discovered theirs no longer worked.
Please say a prayer that I do it right!

650 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:17:24am

re: #638 MandyManners

I've heard of that phobia. Any idea what caused it?

I can probably blame my mother. ; )

651 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:17:48am

re: #617 MandyManners

As the name indicates, they're shy spiders so you probably won't find it in the open.

Scratch "probably". The Arizona/Sonora Desert Museum has a brown recluse exhibit -- specially made and lighted, damn near impossible to see the little bugger in.

/but otherwise, they couldn't keep him

652 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:17:53am

re: #625 rightymouse

OMG - that would have creeped me out so badly! There was a big furry one in the bathroom not too long ago that was sent to spider heaven by the bottom of a boot.

Oh- I screamed. Then I washed him down the drain.

653 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:18:27am

Laundry calls again. bbiab

654 Dan G.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:18:28am

Again, adeiu; I have some atheist/abomanation moth cells making human proteins that I need to tend to (FYI).

655 Sunlight  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:18:37am

re: #536 Ojoe

I haven't heard of that letter, can you post it?

Sorry - I just saw your note...

[Link: en.wikisource.org...]

656 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:19:28am

re: #614 Scion9

Well, considering what the Bastille itself was symbolic of to the French peasantry, if Michelle and Barry keep up their game over the next 4-8 years, the American symbol of bourgeoisie oppression and excess might just be the White House unfortunately.

I have been troubled by what the Obama's mean for African American culture and ideology as well. This morning I was reading a peridicol which was as usual, fawning over obama..It was showcasing his Social Secretary --A black elite Chicagoan, she went to Harvard, daughter goes to Yale, everyone IVY. While I am guilty having my share of IVY League on my resume, I am not really liking the images of black elitism coming from the Obamas. Lately, I have been privy to conversations where black young males in particular, have been especially more "down" since Obama's historic win. "Who do you think I am Obama?" or "Well you are just a regular little Michelle Obama" have surfaced in AA conversations.

I don't want him to be the only bar for AA success. His path is very status quo. The reason i liked Sarah Palin was because she was very real and connected with the "everyman" type.

657 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:19:36am

re: #508 Afrocity

I found out last night that I won't get a tax break from the stimulus. At first I was a tad disappointed then when I realized my mom raised me on welfare, I realized that it is a good thing and means I made $$$. Welfare destroyed my mom, made her lazy yes I know it was her issue but as a child, I often wished it were NOT available so she would find a job. I worked as soon as I legally could.

* * *
Congratulations on developing your inner strength, and overcoming adversity your mother couldn't. Paying taxes that support our military, defend our country and truly help less fortunate people, I don't mind so much. I wish I were successful enough to make jobs for others.

My comments related to the fact that both Governor Palin and Cindy McCain's parents were working people, teachers, soldiers, who realized their American dream through hard work, selling beer or encouraging their daughters to be somebody though they weren't born with silver spoons or trust funds initially.

658 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:19:37am

re: #652 Sharmuta

Oh- I screamed. Then I washed him down the drain.

Good place to go.

659 least  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:19:58am

"re: #337 Thanos

It's also founded on Greco Roman and Judaic principles, can you show me where the word "God" is in the contstitution?

Indeed the constitution specifically forbids religious tests in article six, forbids punishment for blashphemy and apostasy in the bill of rights, and establishment of state religion in the body.

True dat. But we must remember the world view of all the founding fathers.
What they did and said and thought flowed from their worldview. Their prevailing worldview was filtered through what they'd learned through the Bible.

660 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:20:10am

re: #645 MandyManners

The internet is a good tool, and that's where I discovered this handy trick.

Get a bucket, fill it about 3/4 full and cover the top of the water with sunflower seeds until you can't see the water. Make sure the little varmints can reach the bucket. They are not good swimmers. It caught some mice too.

661 lurking faith  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:20:28am

re: #617 MandyManners

As the name indicates, they're shy spiders so you probably won't find it in the open.

I know.
But I might find one in the back of my closet, just for instance.

662 sillyquiet  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:20:32am

re: #652 Sharmuta

Oh- I screamed. Then I washed him down the drain.

I got up in the middle of the night one time for biological reasons. When I flipped the switch in the bathroom, there was a big ol' wolf spider not half an inch from my fingers. I can't describe the sound I made, except to say it was not at all a manly sound. At all.

663 Render  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:20:46am

re: #621 Naso Tang

It is possible and legal to buy and re-condition old jet fighters. Both for historical (museums) and for private use. I have some links around if you're interested.

But it will never be possible to buy F-14's for those purposes. Too much risk of the Iranians getting the spare parts they desperately need for theirs.

PIMA,
R

664 SlartyBartfast  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:21:06am

re: #624 Sharmuta

Speaking of trapping and moving...

A friend of mine went to a hardware store to buy some live-traps because his property was overrun with squirrels. The saleslady recommended a particular brand/type that she had been using to trap squirrels for relocation...to my friend's neighborhood, as it turned out!

True story--Nashville, TN.

665 Dirk Diggler  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:21:23am

alegrias,

Tell me again, who's being a ONE ISSUE voter here? There's plenty of ONE issue blaming to go around. Everyone has their pet issue or opposing view of this pet issue.

Surely to WIN elections over the Bolsheviks now in charge, we must have agreement on some other fundamental issue(s).

I'm a two issue voter. Those two issues are the War on Terror and preventing the current fiscal insanity in Washington D.C. from continuing.

Do I like creationism? Absolutely not. Do I want it taught in schools as part of a science curriculum? Absolutely not. However IMO it's a trifling issue in the much larger scheme of things. I'll gladly endure creationist insanity if it means not having to endure foreign policy and fiscal insanity. In a perfect world we could be free all these insanities. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, and compromises must be made.

Not supporting a whole slate of Republican candidates who are strong on issues critical to the national security and economic survival of the United States because they have "links" to creationist groups strikes me as absolutely insane. It's also reflective of a profoundly unserious September 10th mentality.

666 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:21:28am

re: #642 jcm

One for you to file for later.

ROFLMAO!
It's been saved!
THANK YOU!

667 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #622 Truck Monkey

I am scared to death of clowns.

/Coulrophobia

668 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:22:02am

re: #662 sillyquiet

I got up in the middle of the night one time for biological reasons. When I flipped the switch in the bathroom, there was a big ol' wolf spider not half an inch from my fingers. I can't describe the sound I made, except to say it was not at all a manly sound. At all.

Yeah- that fella would get a scream outta me too.

669 Haverwilde  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:22:07am

re: #627 Killgore Trout

The problem is that many Christians are starting to feel persecuted. Religion is losing ground in the Western world and Churches don't have the political and social influence that they used to have. They are inventing conspiracy theories about being persecuted and claiming credit for past success of Western culture to get the believers riled up.

I think you are correct. But it gets me riled up when folks LIE. A lie is still a lie even if the one doing the lying is acting for religious reasons--actually it makes it worse. It damages my community of faith.

670 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:22:29am

re: #601 Charles

How to write like a 'NON-creationist/'faux evolutionist:-

"I believe in evolution and do NOT want to see creationism or intelligent design taught in schools. I also applaud Charles' stance on Israel and Jihad, and have found this site to be highly informative in that regard for several years. Having said that, it also needs to be said that lately this site seems to have been overrun by a bunch of Darwin worshipping fools blah blah..."

671 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:22:50am

re: #663 Render

It is possible and legal to buy and re-condition old jet fighters. Both for historical (museums) and for private use. I have some links around if you're interested.

But it will never be possible to buy F-14's for those purposes. Too much risk of the Iranians getting the spare parts they desperately need for theirs.

PIMA,
R

Well unless of course if Obama out of the goodness of his heart sends the spare parts over to Iran gratis?

672 meeshlr  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:10am

Bravo!

And that's why I check LGF everyday.

673 sngnsgt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:14am

re: #666 pre-Boomer Marine brat

lol Yep, that's a keeper.

674 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:24am

re: #627 Killgore Trout

The problem is that many Christians are starting to feel persecuted. Religion is losing ground in the Western world and Churches don't have the political and social influence that they used to have. They are inventing conspiracy theories about being persecuted and claiming credit for past success of Western culture to get the believers riled up.

Puzzling Evidence:

675 Opinionated  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #664 SlartyBartfast

Speaking of trapping and moving...

A friend of mine went to a hardware store to buy some live-traps because his property was overrun with squirrels. The saleslady recommended a particular brand/type that she had been using to trap squirrels for relocation...to my friend's neighborhood, as it turned out!

True story--Nashville, TN.

Redistributing the squirrels.

676 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:35am

re: #662 sillyquiet

I got up in the middle of the night one time for biological reasons. When I flipped the switch in the bathroom, there was a big ol' wolf spider not half an inch from my fingers. I can't describe the sound I made, except to say it was not at all a manly sound. At all.

re: #662 sillyquiet

I got up in the middle of the night one time for biological reasons. When I flipped the switch in the bathroom, there was a big ol' wolf spider not half an inch from my fingers. I can't describe the sound I made, except to say it was not at all a manly sound. At all.

I had a wold spider as a pet once, for about 6 hours. His name was Murgatroid. I put a grasshopper in his jar for food. They fought for about 4 hours, Murgatroid won, but it must of took a lot out of him, because he dies about 2 hours later.

Or, maybe I should have pokes a few air holes in the lid of the mason jar?

677 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:36am

re: #560 Wishing

Yep only good snake is a dead snake. I have Eve's back on this one.

I grew up with vipers and cobras lurking around and so developed a healthy fear of the buggers. If a snake shows up where I can actually see it on our property, it's a goner. No questions asked.

678 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:23:53am

re: #643 Scion9

I hope they are kidding. They had better damn well be.

679 M. Bensson-Levi  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:24:52am

re: #583 jaunte

I have to tell you, the whole soul buying gig was weird. I bought them from avowed atheists (obviously) most of whom sold the off in flippant light hearted gestures that resembled giving the finger to Fate. When they came back to retrieve their souls I was at first surprised, then I came to expect it. The few that went dangerously nuts on me were psycho to begin with. What surprised me was how very earnest, and concerned they were with getting their souls back.

As I've said time and again, folks are willing to believe in anything, but themselves. Mind, I'm not making any statement on the existence of the soul. The matter is beyond my knowledge, and therefore of no concern to me.

680 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:25:03am

re: #543 MandyManners

Why mention race at all? It's utterly irrelevant.

* * *
Race? Who mentioned race? Heinz 57 is not a race, nor is half Palestinianism a race.

Ripping off taxpayers through conversion of disabilities payments meant for children, to use for plastic surgery & expensive IVF treatments is criminal no matter WHO does it.

681 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:25:25am

re: #677 rightymouse

I grew up with vipers and cobras lurking around and so developed a healthy fear of the buggers. If a snake shows up where I can actually see it on our property, it's a goner. No questions asked.

If you could ask questions, What would you ask?
*snark*

682 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:26:46am

re: #681 Truck Monkey

If you could ask questions, What would you ask?
*snark*

True. Not all vipers are the pits.

683 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:26:49am

re: #678 Cato

I hope they are kidding. They had better damn well be.

My father swears my mother once answered a math test question "Prove that a=b" with an essay one why a should be proud to be his own person, and shouldn't have to be like b.

The reason my parents married is that he's so left-brained, and she's so right-brained, that they can link arms and keep from falling over. ;)

684 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:27:52am

re: #643 Scion9


Well, I don't know if you could technically call it a religion, but it comes pretty damn close.

From that link:

Highlighted Curriculum

> Revealing Racist Roots: The Three R's for Teaching about the Jena 6 - This mini-unit was developed by Joyce Sia and Rico Gutstein, teachers at the Greater Lawndale/Little Village School for Social Justice in Chicago, and is part of a teaching guide on the Jena 6 put out by the Network of Teacher Activist Group (including NYCORE - the New York Collective of Radical Educators). The central problem of the unit is to find the probability of selecting an all-white jury in Jena. Click Here

Goodness.

685 Haverwilde  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:28:27am

Snakes and spiders-great topic for a cold saturday. As a kid we would hitch-hike down to the snake river. Then we would walk the railroad tracks looking for rattlesnakes. They scared the 'crap' out of me but I had to be macho and try and kill them with rocks.
My sister had a boyfriend who manage to trap a black widow in a mason jar. He didn't know she was pregnant. So when last I saw the jar it had lots of tiny little black widows in it. My mother quietly suggested that he not bring it to the house anymore.

686 rightwinger3  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:29:03am

re: #662 sillyquiet

I got up in the middle of the night one time for biological reasons. When I flipped the switch in the bathroom, there was a big ol' wolf spider not half an inch from my fingers. I can't describe the sound I made, except to say it was not at all a manly sound. At all.

Had one on my shoulder while driving a HMMWV in heavy Okinawa traffic once. I can also assure you that the sound produced by me was not manly.

687 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:29:39am

re: #610 Cato

I think you're trying to say Leibniz.

688 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:29:41am

re: #685 Haverwilde

Snakes and spiders-great topic for a cold saturday. As a kid we would hitch-hike down to the snake river. Then we would walk the railroad tracks looking for rattlesnakes. They scared the 'crap' out of me but I had to be macho and try and kill them with rocks.
My sister had a boyfriend who manage to trap a black widow in a mason jar. He didn't know she was pregnant. So when last I saw the jar it had lots of tiny little black widows in it. My mother quietly suggested that he not bring it to the house anymore.

When did your sister finally tell her boyfriend that she was pregnant?

689 Render  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:29:44am

re: #671 Nevergiveup

Nope.

[Link: deseretnews.com...]

SHREDDED,
R

690 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:29:55am

re: #663 Render

It is possible and legal to buy and re-condition old jet fighters. Both for historical (museums) and for private use. I have some links around if you're interested.

But it will never be possible to buy F-14's for those purposes. Too much risk of the Iranians getting the spare parts they desperately need for theirs.

PIMA,
R

Yes, I know, although I doubt with loadable guns. There's someone who has several F104's and does the airshows. Saw them at McDill a few years ago and I've seen them overhead heading for Clearwater airport on occassion. A noise one can't miss or forget.

I also saw a TV show the other day on a British guy who has 5 jets in his hangar and private airfield. (I didn't know there were Texans over there).

3 Hawker Hunters and a couple of trainers.

691 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:30:03am

re: #685 Haverwilde

Snakes and spiders-great topic for a cold saturday. As a kid we would hitch-hike down to the snake river. Then we would walk the railroad tracks looking for rattlesnakes. They scared the 'crap' out of me but I had to be macho and try and kill them with rocks.
My sister had a boyfriend who manage to trap a black widow in a mason jar. He didn't know she was pregnant. So when last I saw the jar it had lots of tiny little black widows in it. My mother quietly suggested that he not bring it to the house anymore.

Spending time in WY on a friends ranch we'd take the .22s and go rabbit hunting, any rattlers we found we'd catch and sell to a anti-venom lab. Good money for a 10 year old.

692 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:30:06am

re: #674 Guanxi88

Is that David Byrne driving the car at the end?

693 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #681 Truck Monkey

If you could ask questions, What would you ask?
*snark*


Heads or tails.

694 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:30:10am

re: #647 screaming_eagle

If you really and truly want one and can pay for it, I will find out if one can be had. My law partner is the former general counsel to the Navy under Clinton.

695 Catttt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:30:10am

re: #476 Charles

Unless you explain why you picked such a sneakily offensive username, and then post comments purporting to be a "Christian," you're going to lose your account.

Apparently some people think they can play these kinds of games and fly under the radar. Well, you just flew a little too high, MikeyHunt.

I'm guessing Mustafa Shag will not be signing up. :D Link is safe for work, unless "sex doll" in the name will ring bells on your comp.

696 n in wi  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:31:28am

I have for a long time thought that the religious right has probably done more to turn people away from conservatism,than to attract them to it. In my opinion,if some one is opposed to abortion,just as an example, the argument against it is better forwarded when argued that it is bad science,and bad law,rather than "You'll go to hell if you support it."
The question that I have is how best to promote things such as strong morality ,cultural issues, and family values,without it becoming an issue of religion?

697 Haverwilde  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:31:34am

re: #688 Walter L. Newton

When did your sister finally tell her boyfriend that she was pregnant?

The joys of writing without editing. Weirdisms do appear.

698 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:31:36am

re: #690 Naso Tang

Yes, I know, although I doubt with loadable guns. There's someone who has several F104's and does the airshows. Saw them at McDill a few years ago and I've seen them overhead heading for Clearwater airport on occassion. A noise one can't miss or forget.

I also saw a TV show the other day on a British guy who has 5 jets in his hangar and private airfield. (I didn't know there were Texans over there).

3 Hawker Hunters and a couple of trainers.

Someone found an intact early F-18 airframe he re-powered it added everything else and flies it. No weapon systems, but the Navy was pissed about it too.

699 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:31:54am

re: #689 Render

Nope.

[Link: deseretnews.com...]

SHREDDED,
R

Good.

700 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:32:21am

re: #670 Jimmah

How to write like a 'NON-creationist/'faux evolutionist:-

"I believe in evolution and do NOT want to see creationism or intelligent design taught in schools. I also applaud Charles' stance on Israel and Jihad, and have found this site to be highly informative in that regard for several years. Having said that, it also needs to be said that lately this site seems to have been overrun by a bunch of Darwin worshipping fools blah blah..."

Heh. That's so close to what they really do post, it's a little frightening.

701 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:32:26am

re: #602 Wishing

I can't read Hebrew without the vowels, so my knowledge of such things is very, very limited.

702 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:32:39am

re: #687 Jimmah

I think you're trying to say Leibniz.

Monadist!

703 SteveC  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:33:02am

OT -

Back from lobbying Congress! There were 200+ (by my count) Congenital Heart Defect (CHD) Survivors, family members, and Cardiologists there to lobby for the Congenital Heart Futures Act. The Act would direct the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI) to fund CHD research, prevention, better care parameters, and concentrate efforts on how to effectively smooth the transition of care from a Pediatric Cardiologist to an Adult Congenital Cardiologist. This is the point where a lot of CHD patients fall through the cracks and fail to get the care they need.

The Act would also declare that Congenital Heart Defects are a chronic illness, which would cause the Centers for Disease Control to fund educational programs and to create/maintain a registry of all CHD cases in the United States. The total cost estimate of the Act is $12 million per year.

Things went well; we were quite well received. Patrick Kennedy of Rhode Island was the most resistant legislator that I know we ran into. But almost everything he does is concerned with the environment; I figure that we could get his support if we can prove that CHD research won't unintentionally kill a whale!

704 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:33:22am

re: #692 Killgore Trout

Is that David Byrne driving the car at the end?

Yes, in the world's greatest cowboy hat.

705 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:34:04am

re: #704 Guanxi88

Yes, in the world's greatest cowboy hat.

From the movie "True Stories," also with John Goodman.

706 lurking faith  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:34:55am

re: #664 SlartyBartfast

She released them in an urban neighborhood? That's evil and stupid, if not illegal.

707 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:35:02am

re: #665 Dirk Diggler

alegrias,


I'm a two issue voter. Those two issues are the War on Terror and preventing the current fiscal insanity in Washington D.C. from continuing.

Do I like creationism? Absolutely not. Do I want it taught in schools as part of a science curriculum? Absolutely not. However IMO it's a trifling issue in the much larger scheme of things. I'll gladly endure creationist insanity if it means not having to endure foreign policy and fiscal insanity. In a perfect world we could be free all these insanities. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, and compromises must be made.

Not supporting a whole slate of Republican candidates who are strong on issues critical to the national security and economic survival of the United States because they have "links" to creationist groups strikes me as absolutely insane. It's also reflective of a profoundly unserious September 10th mentality.

* * *
Agreed. I'm here for the serious post 9/11 mentality primarily, and the reality-based lizards who recognize & care about fighting the WOT.

Also, I respect Charles for uncovering the evidence of fraudulent mendacious anti-Bush false documents in 2004 by pro-Kerry democrat cheating partisans.

708 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:35:26am

re: #694 Cato

If you really and truly want one and can pay for it, I will find out if one can be had. My law partner is the former general counsel to the Navy under Clinton.

Well I have to see how much of a bail-out I get from the porkumus.

709 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:36:26am

re: #665 Dirk Diggler

It's also reflective of a profoundly unserious September 10th mentality.

Don't you think that's a little harsh? That maybe damaging our science education would have serious repercussions on our ability to develop weaponry and defenses against biological attacks? Strong science is pro-security.

710 Steve Rogers  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:36:59am

re: #303 MikeyHunt

The constitution is already founded on 'Christian principles', as were our founding fathers.

The Founders were generally not Christian. Most were Deists. Some were Freethinkers (similar to agnostic). Even if a few were Christian, they founded a secular nation where government couldn't tell religion what to do and religion couldn't tell government what to do.

Here they are in their own words:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in…[the] superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
--Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and 3rd President of the United States

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
--Thomas Jefferson

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--Thomas Jefferson

"...an amendment [to the Virginia Bill Establishing Religious Freedom] was proposed...inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"
--Thomas Jefferson in his autobiography

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
--Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
--John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

"...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
--Treaty of Peace and Friendship, ratified by the Senate during Adams' presidency

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?"
--James Madison, Father of the Constitution

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law," wrotenor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience."
--James Madison in his 1789 Annals of Congress

"...I was scarce fifteen, when...I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands...for defense of Christianity. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"
--Benjamin Franklin, Autobiography

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

--Thomas Paine

"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
--Article VI U.S. Constitution

711 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:37:57am

re: #700 Charles

That's right, no variance from orthodoxy allowed! What are you going to do? Rendition the mutants on the Galapagos islands?

712 JHW  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:38:52am

re: #676 Walter L. Newton

Walter do you collect fossils in addition to meteorite specimens? I was looking for maps of Southwest England last night and found these sites, pretty interesting.All from the Dorset coast near Lyme Regis.
The Dinosaur Coast...Giant Icthyosaur Fossil Find

Mary Anning and the Birth of Geology

Charmouth Fossils, Ltd.

This fellow has quite a collection, I'm tempted to order one of those Ammonites, they're fairly cheap.

713 alegrias  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:39:05am

re: #710 Steve Rogers

* **
Nice research on Deist references and other references to religious freedom by our founders. Thank you.

714 Dianna  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:39:18am

re: #711 Cato

You're really obnoxious.

715 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:39:19am

re: #702 Guanxi88


Thank you.

716 Haverwilde  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:40:11am

re: #665 Dirk Diggler


I'm a two issue voter. Those two issues are the War on Terror and preventing the current fiscal insanity in Washington D.C. from continuing.

Do I like creationism? Absolutely not. Do I want it taught in schools as part of a science curriculum? Absolutely not. However IMO it's a trifling issue in the much larger scheme of things.


Your priorities are good. The problem is that a creationist has almost no chance of winning outside of the innane biblebelt districts. The rise in power of creationists in the party dooms the party and its priorities nationally.

717 Guanxi88  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:41:09am

re: #712 JHW

If you're here in the states, I can point you to a supplier of ammonites, etc., much cheaper. It's not me, by the way, but in my line of work, I do come across suppliers of unusual things, and would be happy to pass it along to you.

[Link: www.madagascarminerals.com...]

Good folks, long in the business.

718 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:41:26am

re: #290 FightingBack

Some fish already had somewhat longer fins, by random genetic mutation. They survived. The shorties died out.

And with a long-fin gene around, and the possibility that an offspring will get two copies of it, and there being a lot of shallow water around, there ya go.

719 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:41:45am

re: #700 Charles

Heh. That's so close to what they really do post, it's a little frightening.

I don't think I quite captured the ultra snotty tone though - that needs a little work.

720 JHW  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:42:17am

re: #717 Guanxi88

Thanks, I'll make note of that site.

721 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #719 Jimmah

I don't think I quite captured the ultra snotty tone though - that needs a little work.

Try using the word "theory" in a snide and demeaning manner. ;)

722 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:43:17am

re: #719 Jimmah

I don't think I quite captured the ultra snotty tone though - that needs a little work.

Here's an excellent example to emulate for that snotty tone:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

723 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:44:19am
A true conservative respects and honors the US Constitution. He/she does not try to enshrine his/her own religious beliefs as the law of the land.

Hear! Hear! Right on. Right on. *clap* *clap*

724 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:44:24am

re: #702 Guanxi88

Monadist!

All complaints to the Prime Monad, please. ;)

725 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:44:36am

re: #719 Jimmah

I don't think I quite captured the ultra snotty tone though - that needs a little work.

Ask Cato to give you a hand.

726 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:44:39am
727 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:47:02am

re: #714 Dianna

Thank you for that genteel comment.

728 least  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:47:37am

re: #701 Cato

I can't read Hebrew without the vowels, so my knowledge of such things is very, very limited.

Walter! this warrants a down-ding? 'Splain, please.
Diana! You up-dinged? Por que?

curious, i am.

729 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:47:47am

re: #725 Naso Tang

Ask Cato to give you a hand.

Remember though -- he's not a creationist!

730 Racer X  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:48:54am

Oh, man. I missed the chance to throw out a bunch of Mikey Hunt puns.

731 jcm  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:49:25am

re: #726 Iron Fist

Any and all gun control is in opposition to the primary function of the 1st Amend. That the People would have the means to resist tyranny.

All the infringements on the 1st revolve around limiting crime, or safety. Both are canards and obscure the real issue.

732 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:49:53am

re: #722 Charles

re: #725 Naso Tang

Yes,I'm seeing that. It appears that Cato, apart from being monad as a hatter, is so full of snot that if he blew his nose properly, he could fit inside a matchbox.*

*Badly mutilated Hitchens witticism

733 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:52:36am

re: #731 jcm

Any and all gun control is in opposition to the primary function of the 1st Amend. That the People would have the means to resist tyranny.

All the infringements on the 1st revolve around limiting crime, or safety. Both are canards and obscure the real issue.

Absolutely. Defense against a tyrannical government, priority one.
Hunting and food, priority two.

734 lurking faith  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:52:47am

re: #727 Cato

I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

You threw snarky gibberish at Charles, and she called you on it.

735 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:53:08am

re: #732 Jimmah

Jimmah, don't look to Hitchens for wit or you will find you will get half of what you are looking for.

736 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:55:06am

re: #727 Cato

Thank you for that genteel comment.

If the shoe fits. And it does.

737 least  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:56:24am

re: #710 Steve Rogers

Pure and utter horse crap.

Promoted by the sorts of folk who will state that the Constitution is "a living document" that can be morphed into whatever the current truth is.

Unless their view is questioned. Then the Constitution is sacrosanct.

738 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:58:20am

re: #737 least

Pure and utter horse crap.

Promoted by the sorts of folk who will state that the Constitution is "a living document" that can be morphed into whatever the current truth is.

Unless their view is questioned. Then the Constitution is sacrosanct.

Every quote he posted is absolutely accurate.

739 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:58:38am

re: #737 least

Do you have some quotes or links to disprove what Steve said, or just your unsubstantiated opinion that it's "crap"?

740 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:02:36pm

re: #737 least

Pure and utter horse crap.

Promoted by the sorts of folk who will state that the Constitution is "a living document" that can be morphed into whatever the current truth is.

Unless their view is questioned. Then the Constitution is sacrosanct.

Have you ever read any books on John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin or Thomas Paine, let alone their own works?

Reason I'm asking is that the only horse crap I saw was in your post.

741 Syrah  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:03:07pm

I don't understand how the "creationist" think they can use the state (via the schools) to promote their religion when by that very act, they make their religion subject to the whims and vagaries of the state. They risk having the state neuter and devalue their religion into meaningless mush as has happened to the Church of England, or that they will be manipulated into supporting the God-State of some future wannabe-dictator.

They are playing with fire.

742 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:03:30pm

re: #735 Cato

Hitchens has many detractors, but only a fool would call him a half-wit. Nice try on the humour though.

743 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #740 rightymouse

Have you ever read any books on John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin or Thomas Paine, let alone their own works?

Reason I'm asking is that the only horse crap I saw was in your post.

Not to mention Washington. The man never wrote about Jesus.

The RR really, really hates it when the historical record of the Founders is used to take away their notion of a "Christian nation".

744 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #734 lurking faith

I just get a little tired of Charles finding a creationist behind every bush. I am not one, but I don't quite say what he would like me to say, so he maintains that I am closeted. Like economics, evolutionary theory is lacking because it can't make accurate predictions about the future. That doesn't mean it isn't mostly right, like von Mises, my favorite economist, is mostly right. It is also founded in one universal premise that does not really fit very well with the life man lives. But lots of sciences are founded on predominantly right premises that sometimes go awry.

To most people these a quibbles, but to Charles they are the the signs of creationist infestation. Since the only place I know where to find a bible is in a hotel room, I don't think that should apply to me. Snarky? Yep. Particularly because I have a high opinion of Charles' intellect and attitude. But the last thing I will do is be beaten down by anything but a better argument, no matter who espouses it.

745 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:09:24pm

re: #742 Jimmah


Hitchens frustrates me. He was right on in Iraq, but just about all wrong on Palestinian-Israeli issues.

746 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:10:26pm

re: #744 Cato

I just get a little tired of Charles finding a creationist behind every bush. I am not one, but I don't quite say what he would like me to say, so he maintains that I am closeted.

Oh, I totally believe you. It's sheer coincidence that you happen to say exactly the same things creationists do.

Like economics, evolutionary theory is lacking because it can't make accurate predictions about the future.

Yes, it can, and it does.

When scientists announced last month they had determined the exact order of all 3 billion bits of genetic code that go into making a chimpanzee, it was no surprise that the sequence was more than 96 percent identical to the human genome. Charles Darwin had deduced more than a century ago that chimps were among humans' closest cousins.

But decoding chimpanzees' DNA allowed scientists to do more than just refine their estimates of how similar humans and chimps are. It let them put the very theory of evolution to some tough new tests.

If Darwin was right, for example, then scientists should be able to perform a neat trick. Using a mathematical formula that emerges from evolutionary theory, they should be able to predict the number of harmful mutations in chimpanzee DNA by knowing the number of mutations in a different species' DNA and the two animals' population sizes.

"That's a very specific prediction," said Eric Lander, a geneticist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Mass., and a leader in the chimp project.

Sure enough, when Lander and his colleagues tallied the harmful mutations in the chimp genome, the number fit perfectly into the range that evolutionary theory had predicted.

That's just one example out of many.

747 least  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:10:26pm
Noah Webster
“The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed... No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” [Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

John Quincy Adams, Sixth President of the USA
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” [Source: Letters to his son. p. 61].

James Madison, Fourth President of the USA
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart. We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity… to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Abraham Lincoln, Sixteenth President of the USA
"In regards to this great Book (the Bible), I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it."

There are more.

As I stated in my #659 " . . . we must remember the world view of all the founding fathers. What they did and said and thought flowed from their worldview. Their prevailing worldview was filtered through what they'd learned through the Bible."

748 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:10:39pm

re: #743 Sharmuta

The RR looks to me to be fundamentally anti-American. It's a radical religious agenda being pushed on a constitutionally secular country. It's unfortunate for conservatives that they have gotten conflated with them - they have a hard job ahead of them.

749 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:12:42pm
750 Dirk Diggler  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:13:10pm

Shamuta,

Don't you think that's a little harsh? That maybe damaging our science education would have serious repercussions on our ability to develop weaponry and defenses against biological attacks? Strong science is pro-security.

Nope. The notion that exposure to creationism will lead to the demise of scientific inquiry in the United States is bullsh*t. Creationism and "Intelligent Design" are silly fads and will ultimately run their course. If you really care about science in this country, demand local public schools raise their scientific standards and that teachers and administrators are held accountable for failing to meet those standards.

Good luck with getting any kind of higher academic standards or accountability with the Democrats in power though.

751 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:13:36pm
752 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #726 Iron Fist

I am suspicious of arguments that claim there is no link between gun control and crime in part because there is gun control, however imperfect. Do you really think that there is no advantage to being able to arrest punks with unlicensed weapons or that there would not be one in every wannabe home that doesn't have one now, if there were no controls at all? Then of course we have the issue of assault/military weapons that have no real self defense purpose, even while I believe genuine collectors or enthusiast should be able to own them.

The positions reminds me of the arguments about the death penalty. Both sides present their numbers, but I don't believe the death penalty prevents any murders, at least not more than life in prison does, and it doesn't save money.

In this case I don't think gun licensing is any worse than car/driver licensing and it makes law enforcement a lot easier in many cases.

(I hope you are not one of those who think we need the guns so we can shoot the politicians if the cause and time was right, according to somebody)

753 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:14:57pm

re: #714 Dianna

You're really obnoxious.

He never listens to his elder.

754 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:15:07pm

re: #744 Cato

So Charles has dealt with that 'problem' you had with evolution. I assume you are ok with that now, having been beaten down by a better argument and more importantly, facts. Got any other problems with evolution you'd like to share, or was that the only one?

755 Steve Rogers  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #737 least

re: #737 least

Pure and utter horse crap.

Exactly how is it pure and utter horse crap? Just because you don't like the facts doesn't make them false.

Promoted by the sorts of folk who will state that the Constitution is "a living document" that can be morphed into whatever the current truth is. Unless their view is questioned. Then the Constitution is sacrosanct.


Here you have committed what is know as a Non Sequitur fallacy.

Looney lefties or even responsible liberals who claim the Constitution is a "living document" (which I do not believe it is) has nothing whatsoever to do with the Founder's religious views.

756 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:16:20pm
757 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:16:45pm

re: #743 Sharmuta

Not to mention Washington. The man never wrote about Jesus.

The RR really, really hates it when the historical record of the Founders is used to take away their notion of a "Christian nation".


I'm beginning to think that the activist creationist types pushing into academia (and blowing up here) are actually schemers to make Christians look bad politically. It seems purposeful because at some level, an honest Christian must know that, regardless if one is a literalist or not, that religion belongs at home, church and religion class.

And too many of them, it seems, must have flunked history class and/or can't be bothered to read history books.

758 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:17:59pm

re: #747 least

Three of those men were not Founders.

759 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:18:47pm
760 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:22:56pm

re: #731 jcm

Any and all gun control is in opposition to the primary function of the 1st Amend. That the People would have the means to resist tyranny.

I believe that perspective is outdated. Times were different when it was written and as much foresight as the constitution has it was still a document of the times.

The problem in this age is that tyranny is not as easily defined. There are people today who believe this administration, or the last, deserve that label. At what point do good people all recognize that the day has come?

I believe that by the time that happens it will be far to late, because the majority will have allowed it to happen. So who do the patriots follow, the McVeighs, the Reconstructionists, who?

761 yma o hyd  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:25:51pm

Gah.
Such a fantastic thread on a day when I had to do something else!

Regardless of how dead this thread is, I just want to say this:
Just as there is no fundamental difference between fascists and communists, there is no difference in principle between fundamental islamists and thsoe fundamental 'Christians' who espouse creationism in the forms debated here: the aim of both is the installation of a theocracy.

Thus if you fight against the introduction of sharia in all its forms, you have to fight against creationism, because they both aim to subjugate the freedom of thought of all of us.

The fight against jihadists implies the fight against creationists.
IMHO.

762 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:26:40pm

re: #760 Naso Tang

IMHO ultimately the Constitution is rifles and a desire for freedom & in the last resort rifles is what will preserve freedom here & has all along.

763 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:26:43pm

re: #750 Dirk Diggler

Creationism and "Intelligent Design" are silly fads and will ultimately run their course.

Let's see; the Scopes Monkey Trial took place in 1926, 83 years ago. And right now, today, at least 10 states have bills pending to push "intelligent design" into science classes.

How much longer would you suggest we wait for this "silly fad" to pass?

764 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:26:58pm

re: #750 Dirk Diggler

Good luck with getting any kind of higher academic standards or accountability with the Democrats in power though.

Good luck getting democrats out of power when the RR is scaring moderates and independents away.

765 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:27:32pm

"are what will preserve freedom here & have all along."

PIMF

766 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #753 debutaunt

Took a while for the penny to drop on that one...lol

767 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:29:01pm

re: #762 Ojoe

IMHO ultimately the Constitution is rifles and a desire for freedom & in the last resort rifles is what will preserve freedom here & has all along.

And you will tell me when I should take my own out and start killing Americans...?

768 least  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:31:37pm

re: #758 Sharmuta

Three of those men were not Founders.

Well excuuuse me!
:)

769 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:31:43pm

re: #763 Charles

Let's see; the Scopes Monkey Trial took place in 1926, 83 years ago. And right now, today, at least 10 states have bills pending to push "intelligent design" into science classes.

How much longer would you suggest we wait for this "silly fad" to pass?

Not only that most adults today have never been allowed to get a decent education about evolution (or the meaning of the word Theory) since. I believe textbooks didn't dare to even mention it until the 60s, and then only softly softly.

770 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:31:45pm

re: #767 Naso Tang

The fact that you might have a rifle, and that you comport yourself honorably as a human being, desiring the freedom of yourself and your fellows, is enough to give potential tyrants, of which there is no short supply, quite a pause.

This effect operates 24/7.

771 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:32:20pm

Dinner time. BBL

772 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:38:38pm

re: #767 Naso Tang

And further, how should popular sovereignty ever work with out popular power at its most basic and obvious level?

I do not think it would work.

773 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:39:15pm

re: #770 Ojoe

The fact that you might have a rifle, and that you comport yourself honorably as a human being, desiring the freedom of yourself and your fellows, is enough to give potential tyrants, of which there is no short supply, quite a pause.

This effect operates 24/7.

Fine words, but I will rely on the constitution to do that better than a rifle because only the McVeighs and Oswalds will be the ones to start the shooting.

It is the likes of Huckabee who play loose with changing the constitution that are the ultimate danger, and if they succeed it will be because most of us let them.

You would then be the minority with your rifle; prepared to kill the majority?

774 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:41:08pm

re: #773 Naso Tang

We would organize and give a try at preserving freedom, what else can I say?

I won't have anyone over me.

775 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:44:10pm

re: #774 Ojoe

We would organize and give a try at preserving freedom, what else can I say?

I won't have anyone over me.

Of course you would, but the point I make is simply that relying on the rifle to the extent you seem to do is unrealistic and would be too late.

Got to take a break for a while now.

776 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:44:55pm

re: #760 Naso Tang


The problem in this age is that tyranny is not as easily defined.

That is utter nonsense. Things aren't more 'complex' now. Nothing has changed about the nature of reality and the state of humanity that makes tyranny fit a different definition. The only thing that has changed is that tyrants made the transition from Monarchists to charismatic populists. From the hated Nicholas II to the beloved Lenin; net Liberty equaling out to none in the end. The scam is people desiring to be slaves, or serfs instead of yearning for freedom. Regardless if they want it or not, I am perfectly willing to force freedom on them.


I believe that by the time that happens it will be far to late, because the majority will have allowed it to happen. So who do the patriots follow, the McVeighs, the Reconstructionists, who?

They follow whoever wins the fight. Just like the Founding Fathers. They were not the majority then, and ultimately the majority was irrelevant to their cause. They tried to raise popular support in Parliament through protest as their only 'democratic' means. It failed, so they declared independence. They had the support of at most 30% of British colonists. There were other factions, including just as many Loyalists.

They were simply the most radical, and chased the Loyalists from all positions of power through acts of violence and terror, and ultimately killed them and chased them from the continent altogether. Anyone left with sympathetic views that were opposed to those of Madison, Adams, et al and more in line with British Parliamentarian or Monarchistic leanings knew well that if they actually brought their political views to the public square they would be shouted down to irrelevancy, or likely to suffer a personal "Tea Party" like the Governor of Massachusetts family got.

The concept that the majority should be able to rightfully tell everyone else what to do applies to every single other argument. Creationism not being taught in science class, because it is against the 1st Amendment? Reinstitute sodomy laws? If the majority says otherwise, then the other 49.9% of the country needs to sit down, shut up and accept their state of affairs. Sorry, but no thanks. I don't care if if 99.9% of the country decides on being Communist. I'd still fight. Being part of the mob doesn't make them right.

Democracy is not the founding principle of America. It was self-rule by Americans, within a framework of Constitutional restraints that preserve a very specific concept of liberty. If the majority decides that they hate liberty, then let them be damned. I owe them nothing for wanting to make me a slave, including respecting the legal nature of their mob and the benevolent nature of their tyranny.

777 Cato the Elder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:46:35pm

re: #744 Cato

...Like economics, evolutionary theory is lacking because it can't make accurate predictions about the future.

That has to be the single dumbest thing I've ever seen you post, Junior.

Where does evolution ever claim anything to do with the future? It studies the present and the past. By virtue of its very nature, random mutation and its results are impossible to predict.

Could you stop sullying the name of Cato with this crap? As your father, I'm mighty vexed.

I just might cut you off from your genetic inheritance!

778 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:46:36pm

Is there a James Madison quote mine? What is the source of that quote from Madison, least?

Here is a list of Madison quotes on rights, from the James Madison Center. Please pay close attention on the section concerning the Separation of Church and State.

I'd still like to know the source of yours.

779 Dirk Diggler  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:47:10pm

Charles,

Let's see; the Scopes Monkey Trial took place in 1926, 83 years ago. And right now, today, at least 10 states have bills pending to push "intelligent design" into science classes.

How much longer would you suggest we wait for this "silly fad" to pass?

Over the course of the last 83 years American scientific inquiry has thrived, so I fail to see a clear and present danger here. I strongly doubt American scientific inquiry will collapse if any of these silly bills are passed into law.

Creationism and Intelligent Design are garbage and people, when truly exposed to them, will eventually come to that realization. There will be a point of critical mass when people simply say "This is not unacceptable as science".

I'm just of the opinion that this nation has far greater challenges to deal with. For people to litmus test candidates based upon their stand on this particular issue strikes me as profoundly unserious.

780 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:47:30pm

re: #744 Cato

Like economics, evolutionary theory is lacking because it can't make accurate predictions about the future.

Hey, come on, Cato. Aren't you going to acknowledge that you were dead wrong with this statement?

Especially since you wrote:

...the last thing I will do is be beaten down by anything but a better argument, no matter who espouses it...

I'd be happy to post more examples of evolutionary theory making testable predictions that turned out to be absolutely accurate, if that one didn't meet your high standards of proof.

781 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:48:14pm

re: #754 Jimmah

Jimmah,

First of all, I don't think I really understand what was said and I'm not sure what was being predicted. Did it mean to say that the frequency of chimp abnormalities and human abnormalities were roughly the same given their populations and similarities? If that is all, I would assume it to be so unless the relative disparities in our environments changed the equation. I assume it to be so because humans evolved from chimps, or at least something like them.

If I misunderstand, then please set me right. I do not see, however, how that can be called prediction in the same way as launching a rocket at a certain speed in a certain angle can give you the basis for a predictable orbit.

Ben Bernake has made a prediction: he says that pumping money into the money supply will stave off a great depression. We will know if he is wrong, but we will not know if he is right. Avoiding a depression could be the result of a thousand factors or their interaction. The same is true of evolution. We know for sure that species evolve into other species, but we do not know for sure what an existing species will evolve into or branch off to become. That is unknowable, kind of like what the weather will be like in Madrid in 90 days. We have some idea that it will be warmer than today, but nothing really more than that. When we know for sure, weather prediction will be science. Right now, its economics.

782 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:49:49pm

Why, yes Sharmuta- there is a "quote mine" for Madison:

The letter from Bruce Pennington (Letters, March 19) citing James Madison as author of the quote: “We have staked the future of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” is a prime example of how disinformation gets disseminated to the masses, whether through honest error or more nefarious purposes.

The quote has been known to be bogus for some time (even among “Christian Nation” activists like David Barton, who circulated it back in the late 80s and early 90s, but now admit it’s dubious). According to the University of Virginia editors of The Papers of James Madison, nothing even “remotely like the sentiment expressed” in the quote appears anywhere in Madison’s writings, and furthermore it is “inconsistent with everything we know about Madison's views on religion and government, views which he expressed time and time again in public and in private."

Indeed, in Madison’s essay “Monopolies…” we read this: “Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history…" And there’s this one from an 1819 letter to Robert Walsh: “Whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State.” There are dozens of such quotes, and nowhere does Madison ever subscribe our “political institutions” or government to any authority beyond “the people.”

Source

783 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:50:00pm

re: #778 Sharmuta

Is there a James Madison quote mine? What is the source of that quote from Madison, least?

Here is a list of Madison quotes on rights, from the James Madison Center. Please pay close attention on the section concerning the Separation of Church and State.

I'd still like to know the source of yours.

Google it and guess what you'll find:

[Link: www.google.com...]

784 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:51:13pm

re: #781 Cato

And of course, you dismiss it out of hand.

785 Cato the Elder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:51:15pm

re: #746 Charles

That's just one example out of many.

Somehow I don't thing that's what Junior meant by "predicting the future" - he's talking about evolution science telling us what the next mutation + selection will look like.

As if star-gazing was the essence of every science. Classic straw monkey.

786 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:52:29pm

re: #777 Cato the Elder

Sorry about being the wastrel son. But Charles DOES think it predicts things rather than merely explain them. Prediction is a much stronger argument than explanation, which is why I take the "weak" evolution position.

787 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:52:51pm

re: #783 Charles

I searched "James Madison Ten Commandments" and was immediately led to numerous sources debunking such a quote having ever been made.

788 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:54:01pm

More evolution predictions:

Evolution has been the basis of many predictions. For example:

* Darwin predicted, based on homologies with African apes, that human ancestors arose in Africa. That prediction has been supported by fossil and genetic evidence (Ingman et al. 2000).

* Theory predicted that organisms in heterogeneous and rapidly changing environments should have higher mutation rates. This has been found in the case of bacteria infecting the lungs of chronic cystic fibrosis patients (Oliver et al. 2000).

* Predator-prey dynamics are altered in predictable ways by evolution of the prey (Yoshida et al. 2003).

* Ernst Mayr predicted in 1954 that speciation should be accompanied with faster genetic evolution. A phylogenetic analysis has supported this prediction (Webster et al. 2003).

* Several authors predicted characteristics of the ancestor of craniates. On the basis of a detailed study, they found the fossil Haikouella "fit these predictions closely" (Mallatt and Chen 2003).

* Evolution predicts that different sets of character data should still give the same phylogenetic trees. This has been confirmed informally myriad times and quantitatively, with different protein sequences, by Penny et al. (1982).

* Insect wings evolved from gills, with an intermediate stage of skimming on the water surface. Since the primitive surface-skimming condition is widespread among stoneflies, J. H. Marden predicted that stoneflies would likely retain other primitive traits, too. This prediction led to the discovery in stoneflies of functional hemocyanin, used for oxygen transport in other arthropods but never before found in insects (Hagner-Holler et al. 2004; Marden 2005).

Still not enough?

789 Dirk Diggler  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:55:00pm

I enjoyed debating this topic, but I gotta go get something done this afternoon.

Have a nice weekend everybody.

790 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 12:55:16pm

re: #784 Charles

I don't dismiss it. I don't really understand what it is trying to say. That there is some sort of constant proportion? Sure, I would have bet that. Since it seems so obvious, I think I'm missing something.

791 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #790 Cato

I don't really understand

Indeed.

792 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:04:08pm

re: #788 Charles


Do you have a list of disproven hypotheses? Morphed mentioned a few, like predicting whales went directly to salt water from land and predicting certain types of bears would develop. Do you then count only the proven ones? The reason predicting INTO THE FUTURE is so important is because you can't have some hits and some misses. You gotta be so right that you know the space shuttle will emerge from the dark side of the moon. If not, you are Ben Bernanke, not NASA. There is something great and noble about being Bernanke, but don't confuse it epistemologically with NASA.

793 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:04:57pm

Man- they not only quote mine and lie about scientists, they have to lie and quote mine our Founders just to support their notion that we were formed as a "Christian nation". Sad, sad, sad. Where does the Bible say they can lie?

And I'm not saying this to deny the role that Judeo-Christian traditions and values have played in the shaping of these men's lives or this country's past, but at least they learned the failings of mixing religion and government. The lessons they learned are apparently not taught to children today. Science, history, civics- all these aspects of our education system need correcting! And it could stand to add logic to the curriculum too.

794 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:06:13pm

re: #792 Cato

Do you have a list of disproven hypotheses?

Global flood and irreducible complexity. How's that for a start?

795 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:07:24pm

re: #792 Cato

More predictions from evolutionary theory:

A central tenet in science is that a scientific theory is supposed to have predictive power, and verification of predictions are seen as an important and necessary support for the theory. The theory of evolution did provide such predictions. Three examples are:

* Genetic information must be transmitted in a molecular way that will be almost exact but permit slight changes. Since this prediction was made, biologists have discovered the existence of DNA, which has a mutation rate of roughly 10−9 per nucleotide per cell division; this provides just such a mechanism.[23]

* Some DNA sequences are shared by very different organisms. It has been predicted by the theory of evolution that the differences in such DNA sequences between two organisms should roughly resemble both the biological difference between them according to their anatomy and the time that had passed since these two organisms have separated in the course of evolution, as seen in fossil evidence. The rate of accumulating such changes should be low for some sequences, which code for critical RNA or proteins, and high for others - that code for less critical RNA or proteins; but for every specific sequence, the rate of change should be roughly constant through evolution. These results have been experimentally confirmed. Two examples are DNA sequences coding for rRNA which is highly conserved, and DNA sequences coding for fibrinopeptides (amino acid chains which are discarded during the formation of fibrin), which are highly non-conserved.[23]

* Prior to 2004, paleontologists had found fossils of amphibians with necks, ears, and four legs, in rock no older than 365 million years old. In rocks more than 385 million years old they could only find fish, without these amphibian characteristics. Evolutionary theory predicted that an intermediate form between these two (i.e. a "fishibian") should be found in rock dated between 365 and 385 million years ago. In 2004, an expedition to islands in the Canadian arctic searching in rocks that were 375 million years old discovered fossils of Tiktaalik.

796 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:08:33pm

re: #792 Cato

Your analogy is ridiculous. Regardless, NASA doesn't have a 100% track record, unless you think they are deliberately out to kill astronauts and blow shit up and predict such will happen.

797 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:14:28pm

re: #796 Scion9

No, NASA doesn't have a 100% record, but their physics does.

798 JHW  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:19:38pm

Here's what one of the most popular orators of the time (ca.1876) had to say. This is not a new argument in this country, and contrary to popular belief, many,many citizens at the time had no desire to insert religion, of any sort, into our founding documents. The title might be a bit misleading for those that would ally religion more closely to our founding documents.
God in the Constitution

Ingersoll was most noted as an orator, the most popular of the age, when oratory was public entertainment. He spoke on every subject, from Shakespeare to Reconstruction, but his most popular subjects were agnosticism and the sanctity and refuge of the family. He committed his speeches to memory although they were sometimes more than three hours long. His audiences were said never to be restless.

His radical views on religion, slavery, woman's suffrage, and other issues of the day effectively prevented him from ever pursuing or holding political offices higher than that of state attorney general. Illinois Republicans tried to pressure him into running for governor on the condition that Ingersoll conceal his agnosticism during the campaign, which he refused on the basis that concealing information from the public was immoral.

Many of Ingersoll's speeches advocated freethought and humanism, and often poked fun at religious belief. For this the press often attacked him, but neither his views nor the negative press could stop his rising popularity. At the height of Ingersoll's fame, audiences would pay $1 or more to hear him speak, a giant sum for his day.

Robert G. Ingersoll

All his volumes are down-loadable in PDF , some of his essays and speeches, or rather verbal duels, with the hell and damnation sorts, are quite entertaining. I can see how he drew huge audiences.

799 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:21:20pm
800 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:22:43pm

re: #795 Charles

Of these the last is the strongest. The first two were too vague to really be called predictions. The last, however, is highly specific. Does this mean that "fishibians" evolved entirely out of the form in only 20 million years?

801 fooburger  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:23:01pm

Weather prediction currently is only a function of existing data and computational power. Better current environmental resolution, better processing power, better weather prediction. It *is* science.

On another note, I'm concerned about the calling out of religious institutions in this stimulus bill. Congress should not pass a law affecting an establishment of religion. If any questionnaire or request for proposal asks whether the applicant organization has a religious affiliation, that question right there should be unconsitutional. I'm not certain whether it currently is... but I'm pretty certain it should be.

Put it this way... government should deal in real numbers. Religious institutions deal in complex numbers. Government should only be dealing with the real components of religious institutions.

802 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:24:06pm

re: #794 Sharmuta


Please confine yourself to whales, turkeys and bears.

803 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:27:19pm

re: #802 Cato

No.

804 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:27:45pm

re: #792 Cato

Do you have a list of disproven hypotheses? Morphed mentioned a few, like predicting whales went directly to salt water from land and predicting certain types of bears would develop. Do you then count only the proven ones?

Why do I think you are resurrecting the gods of the gaps again?

Of course one counts only the proven ones and they, many, allow what is called inference in logic and science.

805 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:31:46pm
Do you have a list of disproven hypotheses?

Global flood
Irreducible complexity
Humans lived with dinosaurs
Flat earth
Young earth
Rhetorical arguments equal scientific evidence

806 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #797 Cato

Economics is a social 'science', not a hard science. Econometrics, on paper economics that doesn't incorporate human factors, is pretty much as valid as an actual hard science however. I'm sure if you wanted to compare the econometrics of Bernanke versus the hard science on paper of any modern scientist you would walk away with a comparison.

Your analogy is still ridiculous. You are comparing a social 'science' to a physical science. The reason that the soft sciences have a prefix is to differentiate them from empirical science. This doesn't allow you to draw a conclusion between a hard science like biology and a soft science like economics. One is completely grounded in empiricism and the other will take it or leave it like if the data is 'useful' like every soft science. One defines its theories using the scientific method, one does not. No comparison.

807 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:35:00pm

re: #781 Cato

We know for sure that species evolve into other species, but we do not know for sure what an existing species will evolve into or branch off to become. That is unknowable,...

You are quite correct. What is your point?

808 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:36:22pm

Actually- my link earlier to Madison quotes even contained this:

NOT Madison on Separation of Church and State

According to Robert S. Alley, the following quote has been falsely attributed to Madison:

We have staked the entire future of the American civilization not upon the power of government, but upon the capacity of the individual to govern himself, to control himself and sustain himself according to the Ten Commandments of God.

809 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:41:31pm

I could post a lot more examples of accurate predictions made by evolutionary theory, but I think I've made my point.

810 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:45:25pm

Charles, I am sorry to hear you are receiving hate-mail about the creationism vs evolution debate. That is truly an injustice. In this never-ending clash between science and religion, I have always favored science by a wide margin. But, as I've noted at LGF before (and been criticized for it) I am quite willing to tolerate creationists, even though I have spent many hours arguing with them (especially when I was younger). I still have some scientist-friends (not biologists, thank goodness) who don't believe in evolution. They are, of course, religious Christians. And at least some of them are good scientists (admittedly, not in biology)! Also, for what it is worth, none of these scientist-friends are actually "young earth" creationists. (Perhaps young-earth creationism yields too much cognitive dissonance for any good scientist?) Anyway, I have gradually come to the conclusion that my scientist-creationist friends are convinced that their belief in creationism is central to their religion. And their religion is a very important part of their lives. So they are unwilling to reject their religion as the price of accepting evolution, despite the scientific support. For myself, I believe that their religious belief brings them comfort, confidence, and overall, seems to make them better and more decent people. So although I would prefer for them to accept evolution, I think they should keep their other religious beliefs. But for many, this does not seem to be possible. And frankly, I have sometimes felt guilty about arguing with them too strongly against creationism. After all, what if I succeeded in persuading them about it, but as a result, they lost their faith in God? Now, I believe that not everyone actually needs to have faith in God to lead a righteous and happy life. But some people seem to truly need it. And who am I to take that source of strength and comfort away from them? Anyway, I just wanted to contribute this perspective to the debate. (I apologize if this has already been mentioned in one of the 800 other posts, since I have read only some of them.)

811 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:49:58pm

re: #776 Scion9

This is a topic that can be as much fun as ID stuff, and also a lot more complicated and emotional for some.

Perhaps I should have said that tyranny can take more subtle forms rather than say it is harder to define.

There was no constitution nor tradition of what we call democracy back then. If you advocate following the winners, then you may very well find yourself fighting with the likes of the Reconstructionists who I dare say will have no trouble deciding who is good and who is bad.

I think that those who think their guns will protect freedom are naive because by the time they realize what they have lost it will be too late for guns. We are not likely to face a sudden coup or takeover by force in this country and our worst enemies are likely to be ourselves.

Dumbing down our education system might be a good place to say it started.

812 Syrah  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:51:03pm
813 callahan23  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:51:29pm

I'm late, again. But better late than never.

Thank you Charles.

814 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:53:14pm

re: #810 My 2 Cents

After everything you've posted here, now you're going to claim that you argue against creationism?

Man. You are a real piece of work.

815 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:53:16pm

re: #812 Syrah

Thanks!

816 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:56:50pm

re: #814 Charles

Charles, are you perhaps confusing me with someone else? I have never posted a pro-creationism or anti-evolution statement, to the best of my knowledge. I can't imagine why I would, either

I thought you might have a comment about my comment, but I never would have guessed that you would be surprised that I am a strong believer in evolution. What is the source of this disconnect?

817 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 1:59:27pm

re: #816 My 2 Cents

Probably your support of robert.

818 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:00:34pm

Amen, Brother Charles.

819 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:01:50pm

re: #817 Sharmuta

I understand what you are saying, but please, what does that have to do with evolution vs creationism? Is that somehow tied to the question of whether a person is, or is not, associating themselves with fascists?

820 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:08:28pm

Sharmuta, does the reasoning go like this? 1. My 2 Cents is reluctant to criticize Robert Spencer, despite (apparent) mountains of evidence. 2. Therefore, My 2 Cents is an irrational unscientific fool. 3. Irrational people are creationsts. 4. Therefore, My 2 Cents is a creationist.
Ok, now I can't believe that is Charles' logic, because he is far too smart for that. But is that what you meant?

821 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:09:33pm

re: #816 My 2 Cents

Charles, are you perhaps confusing me with someone else? I have never posted a pro-creationism or anti-evolution statement, to the best of my knowledge.

You're right - I apologize for saying that. I had you confused with someone else.

But the idea that we should shy away from discussing the fact of evolution and refrain from criticizing creationism, to avoid offending creationists, is just as wrong-headed and backward as the comments you made in that other thread.

822 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:16:26pm

Thank you Charles.
But just one small correction, please. When in the context of strictly a creationist vs evolution debate, I am not so worried about offending creationists, as I am about potentially damaging their religious beliefs, and thus potentially "hurting" them. This may seem to be an unlikely possibility to you. But back in high school, I was friends with a girl who "found" Jesus. I argued with her for a long time about it, attacking her irrationality. Ultimately, I think I may have browbeaten (or "deprogrammed" if you prefer) her out of her faith. I later wondered that perhaps, despite what I considered to be a firm logical basis, I had actually done her a disservice, for she did not seem to be a "better" person as a result of my talking her out of her faith.

823 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:27:39pm

re: #790 Cato

I don't dismiss it. I don't really understand what it is trying to say. That there is some sort of constant proportion? Sure, I would have bet that. Since it seems so obvious, I think I'm missing something.

Try not to forget that failure to understand something proves nothing about that something. Creationists on the other hand seem to think that their incomprehension of some point stands as an argument against it.

824 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:29:15pm

re: #800 Cato

Of these the last is the strongest. The first two were too vague to really be called predictions. The last, however, is highly specific. Does this mean that "fishibians" evolved entirely out of the form in only 20 million years?

I thought your problem was that you didn't understand them? Now they're 'too vague'.

825 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:41:53pm

re: #800 Cato

Here's another prediction that was borne out by evolutionary theory:

humans have one less pair of chromosomes than apes. Evolution predicts that if we are descended from a common ancestor with apes, then one of our chromosome pairs must be a fusion of two formerly separate ones. Such a chromosome would have a telomere at the centre of the chromosome in addition to the normal ones at the ends, and an extra inactive centromere. A chromosome with these features, as predicted by evolutionary science, was discovered.

.

826 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:43:30pm

re: #825 Jimmah

correction: the above should read:

Heres another prediction of evolutionary theory borne out by observation

827 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:44:46pm
828 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:45:54pm

This thread has been a pleasure to read, despite a few fruit loopy flies in the ointment. I wish to formally associate myself with not only Charles' post beginning this thread, but also with Zombie's #110 and Sharmuta's #34.

829 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:46:44pm

re: #828 Salamantis

Thanks, Sala. That means a lot to me.

830 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 2:47:17pm

re: #827 Sharmuta

That's the chappie.

831 Scion9  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:13:20pm

re: #811 Naso Tang


Perhaps I should have said that tyranny can take more subtle forms rather than say it is harder to define.

I agree. That is exactly what happened. Tyranny has been repackaged with the rhetoric of freedom and democracy. Smoke and mirrors aside, the Pol Pots and Mugabes of the world clearly advocate a society that sends an agrarian hunter-gatherer underclass into the countryside to provide food for an urban elite. The Stalins of the world clearly advocate the total ownership of all property and people by the State. Caveman systems, polished up to look like the work of enlightened genius.


There was no constitution nor tradition of what we call democracy back then.

There was no constitution, but there was a Magna Carta, and there was the Republic of England under Cromwell and his son, and there was a Constitutional Monarchy in England that defined that the Monarch had executive powers that was granted solely by the consent of Parliament since 1688. Democracy is not new to America and wasn't knew to the very British Founding Fathers who were certainly very well versed in English politics and English history.


If you advocate following the winners, then you may very well find yourself fighting with the likes of the Reconstructionists who I dare say will have no trouble deciding who is good and who is bad.

I don't advocate following the winners. I'm just saying, that ultimately might does in fact make right and political power does in fact stem from the barrel of a rifle.

Reconstructionists/Dominionists have already sided with the winners anyway; the federal government that they loathe, because they don't have the guns to fight them, so they don't. Abiding by the law is siding with the winner, and respecting that they have the power to exert force over you, the weaker party. That we (like most Americans) happen to agree with the philosophical concepts behind our government is purely coincidental to their being in power. The consent of the governed from which they allegedly derive their power, is something that is implied.

Any government that could feasibly take its place except for some Rousseau inspired Utopian fantasy, would be the same way, including a Christian Theocracy.


I think that those who think their guns will protect freedom are naive because by the time they realize what they have lost it will be too late for guns. We are not likely to face a sudden coup or takeover by force in this country and our worst enemies are likely to be ourselves.

Having an armed populace at all, changes the scope of what is acceptable to be done on our behalf. While we have the right to be armed, we have the ability to be in control of our surroundings, which is something the serfs and peasants that lived under the dictates of a warrior caste did not have.

Considering that many modern governments follow this model that are nominally democratic, disarming the populace would probably eventually produce the kind of politics that you see in Zimbabwe or Nigeria, with mobs inflicting their democracy on the minority. The gun is the great equalizer, and elevates the potential danger of engaging in mob violence against isolated victims. That mob needs to be comparably more radical. The stick wielding, stoning thugs are in no real danger, and many engage in violence because they have the zeal to kill and main, but not to be killed and maimed.

Dumbing down our education system might be a good place to say it started.

Having a system where the government is responsible for representing 'The People' as well as being the primary provider education for their children about their politics, social views, and history at all might be a better place to look.

832 Capoftex  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:17:27pm
I believe it’s an important date, because Darwin was one of the most influential and brilliant scientists in all of history. And it’s sad to see so many self-labeled “conservatives” who not only don’t respect that, but feel threatened by someone who does.

I agree that the constitution is what we should live to, and that true conservatives should have the constitution as their benchmark. But I feel that it's appropriate to teach or at least discuss creationism in science class, because that is where the opposing view is being taught.

By forcing it out of science class Charles, aren't you doing exactly what you are railing against the creationists for?

If you truly believe in your position, then you shouldn't be afraid of an opposing view and you shouldn't "be threatened".

Seems to me you are trying to have the high ground and then do exactly what you are claiming the other side does.

833 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:23:28pm

re: #832 Capoftex

I agree that the constitution is what we should live to, and that true conservatives should have the constitution as their benchmark. But I feel that it's appropriate to teach or at least discuss creationism in science class, because that is where the opposing view is being taught.

By forcing it out of science class Charles, aren't you doing exactly what you are railing against the creationists for?

No. Creationism is NOT science, it is religion. Religious pseudo-science does not belong in a science class. Should we also teach astrology, numerology and the theory of luminiferous ether in science class?

And whose creation myth would you like to teach, by the way? Maybe the Iroquois version?

In the beginning, the world was not as we know it now. It was a water world inhabited only by animals and creatures of the air who could survive without land.

Up above, the Sky World was quite different. Human-type beings lived there with infinite types of plants and animals to enjoy.

In the Sky World, there was a Tree of Life that was very special to the people of the Sky World. They knew that it grew at the entrance to the world below and forbade anyone to tamper with the Tree. One woman who was soon to give birth was curious about the Tree and convinced her brother to uproot the Tree.

Beneath the Tree was a great hole. The woman peered from the edge into the hole and suddenly fell off the edge. As she was falling she grasped at the edge and clutched in her hand some of the earth from the Sky World. As she fell, the birds of the world below were disturbed and alerted to her distress. The birds responded and gathered a great many of their kind to break her fall and cradle her to the back of a great sea turtle. The creatures of the water believed that she needed land to live on, so they set about to collect some for her. They dove to the great depths of the world's oceans to gather earth to make her a place to live. Many of the animals tried to gather the earth from the ocean floor, only the muskrat was successful. With only a small bit of earth brought onto turtle's back from his small paws, Turtle Island began to grow.

The Sky Woman soon gave birth to a daughter on Turtle Island. The daughter grew fast. There were no man-beings on Turtle Island, but a being known as the West Wind married the daughter of Sky Woman.

Soon the daughter of Sky Woman gave birth to Twins. One was born the natural way, and he was called the Right-Handed Twin. The other was born in a way that caused the death of the mother. He was called the Left-Handed Twin. When their mother died, their grandmother, Sky Woman, placed the fistful of earth that she grasped from the edge of the Sky World, and placed it on her daughter's grave. The earth carried special seeds from the Sky World that were nourished by the earth over her daughter. So from the body of her daughter came the Sacred Tobacco, Strawberry and Sweetgrass. We call these Kionhekwa. The Life Givers.

The Right and Left-Handed Twins were endowed with special creative powers. The Right-Handed Twin created gentle hills, beautiful smelling flowers, quiet brooks, butterflies and numerous creatures, plants and earth formations. His brother the Left-Handed Twin made snakes, thorns on rose bushes, thunder and lightning and other more disturbing attributes of today's world. Together, they created man and his many attributes. The Right-Handed Twin believed in diplomacy and conflict resolution. The Left-Handed Twin believed in conflict as resolution. They were very different, but all that they created is an integral part of this Earth's Creation.

Something tells me this isn't what you have in mind.

834 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:23:38pm
835 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:24:16pm

re: #828 Salamantis

Sal - as I'm sure you'll agree, quite simply, LGF rocks on this issue, and the education level of the posters here on science is getting to be something to behold. I was looking around some of the atheist/infidel etc websites I used to frequent more regularly, expecting them to be all over this stuff that's happening at the moment. I was disappointed to say the least. There seemed to be more on members adventures in 'World of Warcraft' and other trivia, and speculation on such topics as the expected date of the next 'false flag' terrorist attack by our 'NWO government'.

example - [Link: www.atheistforums.com...]

Check out the list of recent topics near the top of the page. I should have known what to expect I suppose - I did stop posting altogether on that site at the time of the Ron Paul phenomenon, which suckered almost all the non-lefty types there. I thank Charles once again for his great efforts in keeping things sane and rational around here, and for highlighting the issues that matter.

836 gdonovan  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:25:21pm

If Charles went after the global warming crowd like he does the I.D. folks I'd visit more often.

I find the constant posts about creationists distasteful considering the entrenchment of the dangerous global warming nuts in our schools and culture.

837 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:29:25pm

Here they come.

838 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:33:30pm

re: #836 gdonovan

Why don't you simply piss off then? It would seem to be the thing to do...

839 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:34:55pm

re: #836 gdonovan

I find comments like yours distasteful. Get your own blog so we can come over and tell you which topics you should be posting.

840 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:36:46pm

re: #836 gdonovan

If Charles went after the global warming crowd like he does the I.D. folks I'd visit more often.

This may be less of an incentive than you might suppose.

841 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:37:19pm

re: #833 Charles

No. Creationism is NOT science, it is religion. Religious pseudo-science does not belong in a science class. Should we also teach astrology, numerology and the theory of luminiferous ether in science class?

Charles, we DO teach those things in science class! We teach that they are either non-scientific explanations or that they have been superseded by more modern data/theories. I have NO problem with teaching that creationism is an explanation offered by people based on their religious beliefs, to which they are entitled, but which is not to be considered scientific. It is actually important, in fact, for the historical context! And we regularly discuss the history of science in science classes. So yes, creationism belongs in science class. Just do it the right way! :-) P.s. I'm pretty sure that I learned about the luminiferous ether in science class.

842 JHW  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:37:20pm

re: #836 gdonovan

Global warming, if/when refuted, will be by science, not religion.

843 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:38:23pm

re: #836 gdonovan

If Charles went after the global warming crowd like he does the I.D. folks I'd visit more often.

I find the constant posts about creationists distasteful considering the entrenchment of the dangerous global warming nuts in our schools and culture.

I've said it before, and here I am saying it again: To attempt to argue against evolution by invoking AGW is like attempting to smear Abraham Lincoln by invoking Ron Paul.

844 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:39:25pm

re: #841 My 2 Cents

Charles, we DO teach those things in science class! We teach that they are either non-scientific explanations or that they have been superseded by more modern data/theories.

That's not the point, and it's not what these people are after.

845 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:42:40pm

re: #841 My 2 Cents

We don't teach those things in science class at all. Saying "people used to believe X but they were wrong because of Y, which lead to our current theory Z which we are going to be teaching you about over the course of the following months" does not constitute teaching 'X'.

846 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:44:55pm

re: #844 Charles

Yes, yes, I know... but if I were a science teacher, and I was instructed by my boss to teach "both" evolution and creationism, I hope that I would be brave enough to teach it in exactly the manner I specified. I.e., with respect for the religious beliefs that drive creationism, but with a clear-as-crystal stance that it is not a science.

847 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:45:28pm

re: #841 My 2 Cents

Charles, we DO teach those things in science class! We teach that they are either non-scientific explanations or that they have been superseded by more modern data/theories. I have NO problem with teaching that creationism is an explanation offered by people based on their religious beliefs, to which they are entitled, but which is not to be considered scientific. It is actually important, in fact, for the historical context! And we regularly discuss the history of science in science classes. So yes, creationism belongs in science class. Just do it the right way! :-) P.s. I'm pretty sure that I learned about the luminiferous ether in science class.

So you're advocating that we should bring up Genesis Literalist creationism in public high school science class solely for the purpose of declaring it to be discredited ancient religious superstition and associating it with astrology, alchemy, phrenology, numerology, flat earth geocentrism, the air-earth-fire-water-theory of elements, the phlogiston theory of fire, the Greek theory of spontaneous generation of worms from horsehairs and crocodiles from sunken logs, and the doctrine of signatures theory of herbology?

You must REALLY wanna piss off creationists! Such a course would torque their undies far more than not mentioning creationism at all in public high school science class.

848 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:45:57pm
849 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:47:45pm

re: #845 Jimmah

I beg to differ. If one presents the basis and history of the belief in X, even though one points out that it has been either disproven or superseded, then I think that counts as teaching X. At least, that is what I would assert if I was accused of not teaching X. !

850 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:48:17pm

I'm tired of being accused of 'obsession,' 'harping,' etc., and complaints about what I post at my own website. Go find somewhere else to comment.

851 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:48:29pm

re: #848 gdonovan

Global warming, if/when refuted, will be by science, not religion.

As it should be, I never claimed otherwise.

I stated that I found Charles constant harping on ID distastful, nothing more. If you assume something else from that statement then perhaps you should check your premise.

During the election run up I found LGF to be generally interesting, now somewhat less so.

Opinions vary. And I grant yours fully as much consideration as I judge that it merits and deserves - that is, no consideration at all.

852 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:48:48pm

re: #846 My 2 Cents

Your boss would be asking you to violate the Constitutional rights of your students and their parents!

853 jaunte  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:49:06pm

re: #847 Salamantis

That would fit with an overall political strategy of claiming that "Christians are being silenced"
[Link: www.google.com...]

854 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:52:31pm

re: #847 Salamantis

So you're advocating that we should bring up Genesis Literalist creationism in public high school science class solely for the purpose of declaring it to be discredited ancient religious superstition and associating it with astrology, alchemy, phrenology, numerology, flat earth geocentrism, the air-earth-fire-water-theory of elements, the phlogiston theory of fire, the Greek theory of spontaneous generation of worms from horsehairs and crocodiles from sunken logs, and the doctrine of signatures theory of herbology?

Almost correct. I am advocating that we treat it respectfully, not with name calling, but other than that, yes indeed to what you said. After all, that is what we do right now for that wonderful list you provided! Why should those who claim creationism is science be given more credibility than the astrologers? Respect as a religion, yes. Credibility as science, no. Get it?

855 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 3:54:29pm

re: #854 My 2 Cents

My understanding from the science teachers in DOver was that when their students asked they did treat their students religious beliefs with respect, but the standard answer was they needed to talk to their parents and/or pastors because God falls outside the realm that science can deal with.

What is wrong with that?

856 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:00:04pm

re: #849 My 2 Cents

Well, Dawkins for example has explained the historical background to creationism many times in the way of teaching evolution, but according to your definition of what constitutes teaching a subject, he's been teaching creationism in the classroom. Doesn't really make sense to confuse the issue, unless one is being dishonest on purpose, as in the example you gave.

857 Cato the Elder  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:00:45pm

re: #834 Iron Fist

Most of what you have said is simply your opinion that you feel should be made law. The Bill of Rights is there, and won't go away simply because you feel it is out moded, unnecessary, or over-broad.

I don't think you've mentioned the one most obvious fact about the blanket gun control handgun ban in D.C. that made it ridiculous on its face: not legally being able to own a handgun in that city did precisely nothing to stop handgun crime there.

I own guns in a state that requires registration, not licensing. The registration process is not onerous; you fill out a form at the time of purchase, there is a waiting period, and a ballistics "fingerprint" from a test shot is sent to a central database. You answer some questions (are you a felon, etc.) and if nothing comes up in your background check you get the gun. I find none of that unreasonable. Since I own multiple firearms, I paid for a full-size safe to keep them in. My "panic" gun is also in a small safe, with a coded locking mechanism, bolted underneath my bedside table. I have taken all necessary steps to make sure that my guns are not lying around where someone could easily steal them. And if I go nuts and commit a crime, the guns are traceable to me. I'm fine with all of that.

A lot of times what "gun control" advocates really mean by that is "no guns", as in D.C. Fat lot of good that did.

And then you get prime hypocrites like Feinstein, who voted against easing concealed-carry laws for regular folks, but had a CC permit for herself.

Examples abound.

858 Euler  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:12:02pm

re: #790 Cato

The dotted line is predicted by theory. The x's are [measured-population-allele-frequency, probabity-that-the-allele-is-ancestral] pairs for various human alleles. (An ancestral allele in a population is the allele that was carried by the most recent common ancestor of the population). This is just one prediction borne out in this article.

859 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:13:37pm

re: #854 My 2 Cents

Almost correct. I am advocating that we treat it respectfully, not with name calling, but other than that, yes indeed to what you said. Credibility as science, no. Get it?

To be honest, I don't see that this is really an issue in science education at all. Theres no need for name calling, or for that matter, respectful tiptoeing around religious sensitivities, in the teaching of science.

Example - Dawkins (scary atheist - woo!) teaching evolution to kids:

860 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:20:51pm

re: #856 Jimmah

I am NOT being dishonest. I have often heard creationists demand that creationism be taught in schools in addition to evolution. if they insisted on it being taught exclusively, then the only interpretation would be that they want to suppress evolution. I am addressing the part that seeks merely the inclusion of creationism. If they want BOTH evolution and creationim "taught" then my solution is for them both to be taught from an accurate perspective. And the accurate perspective, in a science class, is that creationism is a religious belief and that evolution is a scientific one. I suppose that both creationism and evolution could likewise be taught in a religion class. Interestingly, few scientists seem to be demanding that it be done so. Perhaps it is because few teachers of religion are interested in introducing modern historical context!

861 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:22:33pm

re: #860 My 2 Cents

Why do you think a science class should be teaching religion?

862 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:30:26pm

Not teaching religion per se. Not preaching any religion! Teaching about how humans seek to understand the world. Teaching how science works. Teaching the scientific method. And how it differs from religious faith. Again, this is how science has long been taught.

863 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 4:49:03pm

re: #858 Euler

re: #825 Jimmah

Impressive. I will remind you though that while prediction is heavily favorable for determining the validity of any theory, it is not sufficient. To be sufficient, all other available theories dealing with the question must be able to be either disconfirmed or found less able to explain observed phenomena.

I know of no competing theory for the time being, but just don't get too comfortable. We humans seem to always have a V8 moment where we hit ourselves on the head and say, "Why didn't I see that?"

864 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 5:02:04pm

My two cents:

If God is anything he would not have us rejected intelligence in favor of ignorance. To reject knowledge that is set before our eyes, machines and tools we touch through our finger tips, the smells and taste of food, and the sweet sounds of music to our ears. All created through our being. When Adam and Eve were banished from Paradise God made them clothes, we can walk naked trough life as a child but not as an adult. We can not reject God's gift to us.

865 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 5:07:11pm

re: #860 My 2 Cents

If they want BOTH evolution and creationim "taught" then my solution is for them both to be taught from an accurate perspective. And the accurate perspective, in a science class, is that creationism is a religious belief and that evolution is a scientific one.

The accurate perspective is that creationism does not belong in any science class, ever.

I suppose that both creationism and evolution could likewise be taught in a religion class. Interestingly, few scientists seem to be demanding that it be done so.

And of course, you take exactly the wrong lesson from that.

866 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 5:49:35pm

re: #863 Cato

re: #825 Jimmah

Impressive. I will remind you though that while prediction is heavily favorable for determining the validity of any theory, it is not sufficient. To be sufficient, all other available theories dealing with the question must be able to be either disconfirmed or found less able to explain observed phenomena.

I know of no competing theory for the time being, but just don't get too comfortable. We humans seem to always have a V8 moment where we hit ourselves on the head and say, "Why didn't I see that?"

Impressive. First you assert that evolutionary theory possesses no predictive value, then, when presented with numerous examples of precisely that, you move your goalposts without skipping a rhetorical beat.

867 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 5:52:48pm

re: #812 Syrah

Hi Sharm,

Something OT for you.

It's taken me awhile to get to this, but now that I'm watching- this is just fantastic! Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

868 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 5:57:13pm

re: #860 My 2 Cents

Seriously - what does it mean to 'teach' creationism? Creationism: Scientists are idiots and liars, evolution is wrong and god dunnit like it says in genesis. Class OVER. Everyone knows this already. Teachers don't need to waste childrens time with this. You talk as if we are in danger of robbing students of vital insights unless the concept of 'teaching creationism' is snuck under the door in some shape or form. It's ridiculous.

869 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 6:01:12pm

re: #866 Salamantis

I was just about to say the same. When one talking point yields no fruit, he just flits to another one and start with that. But he's so not a creationist/.

870 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 6:32:22pm

re: #868 Jimmah

I don't understand how to make this clearer, but I will try. Here's an example. I recall from my high-school biology book, that there was a section about the orgins of life. In that section, a history was included that described early ideas about the origin of life. One of them, which I suspect many of you here have heard of, was called "spontaneous generation." Illustrations were included. Now, would any of you argue that "spontaneous generation" has "no place" in any science class today? Would you banish it entirely? What was so terribly wrong with including it? The very next section of the book explained why spontaneous generation did not pass the tests of science. People did experiments and couldn't find any spontaneous generation (although interestingly, some of these experiments led to useful discoveries). Anyway, evolution was discussed next.

As I said, we already teach ABOUT lots of alternative, non-scientific "explanations" for nature, in our science classes. We use them to illustrate both the history and methods of science vs speculation, mythology, and yes, even religion. I think that is healthy. I do not think that creationism (which wikipedia describes as follows: "Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) or deities.") should be excluded from other, superseded (at least, in regard to modern science) ideas. I don't remember any of my science teachers being afraid to teach me about what the ancient Greeks or Romans thought regarding how the sun rose and set in the sky (e.g., the god Apollo pulled the sun with his chariot). And please note that they did not have to mock or ridicule the ancient Greeks and Romans in teaching about this.

And likewise, they did not have to excise all mention of those old religions from their science courses. Are my ideas here really so radical? On what do we disagree? Do you agree that it is fine to teach about Apollo pulling the sun, but not admit that some people believe, even to this day, that life sprang from a divine source? I'm not saying that any science teacher should assert that science provides evidence for religion. This is merely the acknowledgement that many beliefs have existed, and some continue to exist, regarding the origin of life. Scientists believe in evolution based on the profoundly-strong evidence for it. Some, but certainly not all, religious people do not accept that evidence as valid. [And some people also don't accept quantum mechanics - a fact which is NOT taboo to simply mention, or even give the history of, in a physics class!] Would you rather have our students taught the lie that ALL people believe in evolution? Surely you would not advocate such dishonesty. Then why must even mentioning what some people believe (again, pointing out that creationism is not a scientific theory) be considered taboo? Why is it ok to discuss what the ancient Greeks believed, but taboo to discuss what many evangelical Christians believe?

The key is to draw the line tightly. Creationism is NOT science. Likewise, neither is Apollo in his chariot. Both, however, are very much part of the history of man attempting to comprehend our natural world.

871 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 6:34:30pm

I need an aspirin after that.

872 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 6:43:46pm

re: #870 My 2 Cents

Ummm- you understand that the IDers aren't interested in you teaching Intelligent Design so that you can teach the kids it's not science, right? They want you to teach that it is.

873 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:05:18pm

re: #872 Sharmuta

I do understand that. But the ID'rs are shooting themselves in the foot. They realize that if they insisted that creationism be taught as "scientific truth," and that evolution is invalid, then no one would support them. So they attempt to mislead, and say all they want is for their ideas to be included. Well, I think the public is better served when our students are introduced to those ideas in a science class, where they can then be directly contrasted with actual science. I have no fear that ID can defeat real science on those terms. But if we banish those ideas from the schools, we have the same impact as censoring books, ie, we make them much more attractive. Let the light of day shine brightly on ID and creationism in science class. Let not only the scientific evidence FOR evolution be presented in science class, but also the assertions iof ID, and the scientific refutations of those assertions, be included! And the best thing about ID is that you can mock it all you want, because it's supporters have made a critical error -- they have claimed that their beliefs are founded in science, not religion! So you don't have to risk offending or insulting religion to state boldly that ID has no scientific basis! Have you ever argued with a creationist? I have. They claim all sorts of things that can be quickly shown to be untrue. But the easiest place to find that debunking material is not in standard biology books. Rather, it is in articles and text directly discussing (not hiding) the claims of creationists, and addressing them point by point.
I'm not saying we should blast religion in our science classes. But we can certainly blast ID, whenever we are on the scientific playing field. We should not ignore them (making ID taboo) and thus fail to offer science students the information they need to refute ID, which as we all agree here is really just creationism is disguise, but without the trappings of religion, only the latter for which we must be tolerant. Teach science. Teach history. Teach that controversies exist and what the controversies are about. Teach students not to accept what they are told blindly and unquestioningly. And teach them not to try to suppress ideas they don't like, but rather to debate them, test them scientifically, understand the scientific method, and just as importantly, understand what the scientific method is not.

If done properly, the creationists will then deeply regret that they ever introduced the sleazy notion of ID. For, by dropping the religious argument, they throw away the (historically, and to this day) most valuable card in their hands.

874 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:13:53pm

re: #870 My 2 Cents

Wearied sigh...of course mentioning old failed ideas and pre-scientific religious beliefs can be part of scientific education on a topic. I'm not suggesting that we ban all historical footnotes from science education. What I am saying is that this shouldn't be confused with 'teaching creationism' as if it were a respectable scientific theory, especially at a time when schools are under attack from religious whacknuts who want to do just that.

Teaching creationism means one thing only as far as everyone that I've ever spoken to or read is concerned, and it's not what you are talking about just now, unless I've misunderstood you. So why blur the definitions?

It seems to me that you want to redefine the mere mention of creationism in class as 'teaching creationism'. That's where the argument really is. Why do you insist on doing that?

875 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:18:31pm

re: #873 My 2 Cents

I see. So, you're in favor of including ID in the classrooms, so you can direct the kids to real science, but isn't real science what you're supposed to be teaching them in the first place?

876 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:22:48pm

re: #875 Sharmuta

He's saying "Teach the controversy. It's the only way to defeat them". I think I've seen it all now.

877 ggt  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:28:42pm

Charles, it is not a silly mission statement.

I thought it was concise and appropriate.

878 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:30:35pm

re: #874 Jimmah

It seems to me that you want to redefine the mere mention of creationism in class as 'teaching creationism'. That's where the argument really is. Why do you insist on doing that?

Because, in my experience, those who are fighting most loudly to put creationism and/or ID in the schools claim that is all they want. Call their bluff. They claim they want their ideas "presented." They claim they are not trying to suppress evolution, but that they simply want their alternative ideas and assertions about ID to be mentioned. Well, no problem! Mention their ideas. Demolish their ideas with science.

For if we do not do that, we risk making them look like victims of censorship and intolerance. Charles, it may annoy you if I point this out, but this is exactly what you do with many subjects right here at LGF! You report on it. You post and link and present the arguments of those you disagree with. And then you demolish them with evidence. I say that ID should be treated in science classrooms much the same way you treated Dan Rather. You damn well didn't choose to ignore his lies, nor did you simply call him names. In fact, you presented scientific evidence! If we ignore ID in our science classes, if we do not present it, review the evidence, etc, then our students will hear about it from sources far less sympathetic to science. And they will wonder why our schools were so afraid to talk about it.

879 justadot  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:43:55pm

re: #878 My 2 Cents

If we ignore ID in our science classes, if we do not present it, review the evidence, etc, then our students will hear about it from sources far less sympathetic to science

I have a better idea: teach actual science in a science class. That way, when students encounter ID down the road, they'll have the knowledge and analytical skills to refute it on their own ( ID is essentially content-free). Give them a fishing rod, not a dead fish.

See, isn't that simpler?

880 Cato  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:51:10pm

re: #866 Salamantis

I don't move the goalposts. Although not all of Charles' examples constitute prediction, predicting which strata in which missing links will be found constitutes a prediction I am prepared to say is strongly confirmatory of evolution per se -- although not the same kind of prediction chemistry or physics would make about the future. But very strong nonetheless.

Having made a prediction though is NEVER sufficient as I have said before. Other theories could also make the prediction. You have to sift out the right ones by seeing which is more consitent with the evidence. There isn't really a competitor here. But there wasn't one for Newtonian physics either until Einstein came along. Any new theory would have to be consistent with everything we know, be falsifiable, but somehow explain even more.

It is possible to explain more, don't you think?

881 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:51:54pm

re: #865 Charles

creationism does not belong in any science class, ever.

Sure it does... exactly the way Mary Mapes and Dan Rather belong at LGF! It belongs under a microcope, with critical eyes to dissect it.

Is that really too much to ask? Science defeats falsehood with facts and data, just like you blew Dan Rather and Mary Mapes out of the water. Let's let science do its job.

882 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 7:54:16pm

re: #881 My 2 Cents

You are asking kids to dissect something they don't even understand yet. Wouldn't you have to teach them the science of evolution before you could have them see the flaws in ID? I think you're trying to put the cart before the horse.

883 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:04:29pm

re: #879 justadot

I have a better idea: teach actual science in a science class. That way, when students encounter ID down the road, they'll have the knowledge and analytical skills to refute it on their own ( ID is essentially content-free). Give them a fishing rod, not a dead fish.

See, isn't that simpler?

Unfortunately, that does not address the creationist's arguments that they are being censored. There are a lot of creationists, they are noisy, and they can find sympathetic ears in government. The censorhip argument is a political one and cannot be defeated via scientific arguments. For example, do you agree that proponents of AGW alarmism ultimately weaken their case when they seek to censor the opposition? Evolution is well-founded science, not like AGW. We need not resort to AGW's tactics of desperation, nor is it honorable to do so, in my view. The ID argument can be defeated very soundly in the scientific arena, with no censorship. Let us fight it there.

884 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:07:51pm

re: #878 My 2 Cents

How about we just tell them to fuck off? It's not science so it's manifestly absurd to teach it in science class. End of story.

You really think it makes sense to try to avoid creationists thinking you intolerant by letting them have ID taught in class, and then ripping their ideas to shreds in class? You think they'd just turn over and say "It's a fair cop! They gave us our chance and we failed. Oh well, at least they weren't nasty and intolerant - I respect that sooo much. We wuz beat fair and square". No - every science class would become a battlefield with every statement dismissing and refuting ID/creationism being fought over endlessly by these nuts. As you know, and as we know, teaching ID in schools gives it a legitimacy it does not have - that's why they wants it so bad. What you are proposing would be a disaster. And I think you know it.

You didn't seriously think you were fooling us with this "Please please, teach ID in schools - aw go on will you - what better way to defeat those who ...er...wish to see ID taught in schools"?

You're a hoot, 2 cents, that's what you are.

885 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:09:14pm

re: #882 Sharmuta

Well, I think you have a point. As I recall, biology is often taught in high school freshman classes. How about we introduce evolution in the first semester and contrast it with ID in the second? It seems to me that some sort of aproach of that nature could prove satisfactory?

886 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:10:08pm

re: #883 My 2 Cents

Unfortunately, that does not address the creationist's arguments that they are being censored.

Because their arguments are crap. They are NOT being censored. They have no arguments even worth considering in the light of reality. And they're trying to force the teaching of religion onto other people's children.

Do you really think you're fooling anyone with this soft-pedaling gobbledy-gook? Good grief.

If they can't snow you under with hatred and vitriol, they try to do it with a smile.

887 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:10:25pm

What's kind of funny in retrospect is comment #814. It was correct before it was correct.

888 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:10:57pm

I take back my apology. It's clear you don't deserve it.

889 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:12:02pm

re: #884 Jimmah

Jimmah. I may be wrong. I may be misguided. I may be naive. But I am not lying to you. I am stating my honest opinions. You have every right to consider my ideas silly. But you are being unfair to me when you accuse me of trying to fool you.

890 justadot  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:13:35pm

re: #883 My 2 Cents

The ID argument can be defeated very soundly in the scientific arena, with no censorship.

This has already been done. ID is a lobbying/propaganda movement, not a coherent theory in science. But you say:

Unfortunately, that does not address the creationist's arguments that they are being censored. There are a lot of creationists, they are noisy, and they can find sympathetic ears in government. The censorhip argument is a political one and cannot be defeated via scientific arguments.

If the argument is political, then ID must be defeated in the political arena. Have you noticed Charles's postings of late?

891 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:14:35pm

re: #889 My 2 Cents

No sale.

892 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:14:56pm

re: #888 Charles

Now, this time Charles, I think you really do owe me an apology. Call me wrong. Tell me I am dead wrong. But there is no need to insult me. You are a better person than that and I am disappointed in you, for your needlessly harsh comment # 888.

893 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:15:35pm

re: #892 My 2 Cents

Now, this time Charles, I think you really do owe me an apology.

I hope you aren't holding your breath.

894 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:16:40pm

re: #885 My 2 Cents

Well, I think you have a point. As I recall, biology is often taught in high school freshman classes. How about we introduce evolution in the first semester and contrast it with ID in the second? It seems to me that some sort of aproach of that nature could prove satisfactory?

Now you want to devote half the school year to ID? It could be debunked in one day. How about spending both semesters teaching real science.

895 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:19:55pm

re: #890 justadot

Oh, for goodness sake! When I say that ID can be defeated in the scientific arena, I'm not saying that science hasn't already defeated it! Geez! I'm talking about defeating it in the science classroom, on an ongoing basis, year after year, in educating the minds of young people. I'm talking about teaching, not research. I agree with you 100% that ID has been defeated by science. I'm talking about the battle to teach our young people, not some battle in technical journals!

896 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:21:13pm

re: #894 Sharmuta

I was saying when it would be introduced and covered, not how much time to devote to it. Why must everything I say be interpreted as if I were advocating something ridiculous?

897 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:25:02pm

re: #896 My 2 Cents

Why must everything I say be interpreted as if I were advocating something ridiculous?

Because you are- and you should know better. Frankly- I'm still stunned that you said if your boss told you to teach creationism you'd violate the Constitutional rights of your students by doing so.

898 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:28:11pm

re: #895 My 2 Cents

Then teach evolution. I don't know what could possibly help defeat creationism more or better than teaching actual science including evolution!

899 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:28:52pm

Time for me to hit the sack - night folks.

900 swamprat  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:35:39pm

re: #878 My 2 Cents

They might do that in Russia. America is not anti-religion

901 justadot  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:39:33pm

re: #895 My 2 Cents

I'm talking about the battle to teach our young people, not some battle in technical journals!

So am I. The purpose of teaching biology is not to refute what you call a 'political' argument.

All that's probably best left for later years. Most students won't even have chemistry or physics before biology. They need to build up a skill set first.

902 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:39:34pm

re: #893 Charles

Respectfully, Charles, think again. Let's get this clear. Do you seriously believe that I am acting like some kind of troll here, posting my words with a deliberate attempt to mislead you? Do I have a history of that? I have been reading this blog, and occasionally contributing comments, for many many years. I am not a troll. I'll say it again. I may be wrong. But now you are mocking me, while I am not mocking you. I am acting honorably here, even if you don't believe me. You can tell me I'm wrong. You can even tell me that you would prefer that I no longer participate in these discussions, if you find my remarks to be too annoying. And, as you have pointed out, it is your blog and you can do whatever you want with it. I have no claim to any of it. But LGF has given me comfort for many years and I will always be grateful for that. Charles, you have hurt me. But I already forgive you, even if you do not understand why or still don't believe me. You have long been one of my heroes and this little argument is not enough to change that. I expected some disagreement from you when I addressed the touchy subject of JihadWatch. I did not expect such a conflict to arise in a discussion of creationism vs evolution, which is something about which I believe we agree. The only disagreement is on the best way to fight the lies/errors of creationism. And for having a different view about that, and apparently an unpoular one, I am being ridiculed and called a liar. I am not doing that to you or any of the posters here. I am not accusing you or them of lying. I deserve the same respect.

903 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:44:24pm

re: #902 My 2 Cents

After this:

How about we introduce evolution in the first semester and contrast it with ID in the second?

...and your absurd attempts to make excuses for Robert Spencer, I am completely finished discussing anything with you. That's right, I do not believe you're being honest.

904 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:44:55pm

re: #902 My 2 Cents

I still think your idea of how to best combat the issue is flawed. The kids need to be taught proper science. What I'm discovering is that it's ADULTS who need to learn about evolution just as much as the kids. After all- the discovery institutes best ally is the under-informed public buying into their garbage. The only reason you have some kids pushing this in class is their parents have handed them DI talking points. It's the ADULTS who need to learn about evolution, the kids are often pawns.

905 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:49:37pm

Really 2 Cents- you want to help stop ID, then start sending packets home with your students so their parents can learn something about evolution too.

906 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:52:44pm

re: #880 Cato

I don't move the goalposts. Although not all of Charles' examples constitute prediction, predicting which strata in which missing links will be found constitutes a prediction I am prepared to say is strongly confirmatory of evolution per se -- although not the same kind of prediction chemistry or physics would make about the future. But very strong nonetheless.

Having made a prediction though is NEVER sufficient as I have said before. Other theories could also make the prediction. You have to sift out the right ones by seeing which is more consitent with the evidence. There isn't really a competitor here. But there wasn't one for Newtonian physics either until Einstein came along. Any new theory would have to be consistent with everything we know, be falsifiable, but somehow explain even more.

It is possible to explain more, don't you think?

First, after being presented with irrefutable evidence, you admit that predictability, which you previously claimed did not exist for evolutionary theory, and therefore disqualified evolutionary theory from the status of empirical science, does actually exist, but then turn around and claim that although it is necessary, it is not sufficient, then you claim that even though evolutionary theory has successfully united and explains millions upon millions of experimental data from diverse empirical science fields over the past 150 years and is contradicted by none of it, and in spite of the fact that no testable alternative theory exists that is supported by any of the evidence and contradicted by none of it, that just maybe a better theory is just around the corner, even though there isn't even a harbinger whiff of one in the offing, and then you possess the temerity and utter gall to claim that your goalposts are concrete-set? Dude, you've got them riding in flying saucers.

And yes, it's possible to explain more, and to use evolutionary theory to do it. The theory is augmented, elaborated, and refined every day, while retaining its core tenets.

907 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 8:56:04pm

re: #903 Charles

Dear Mr. Johnson:

You are mistaken. I am being honest.

But since you no longer trust me to be honest (which is a very different thing than simply disagreeing with me, no matter how intensely) then I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to continue to post at this site.

Feel free to close my account. I will continue to read LGF, for I believe there is a great deal of good here. I will always be grateful for your pioneering and ongoing actions to empower free people, to hold the MSM to a higher standard, to promote the causes of liberty and decency and integrity and truth throughout the world. You are a mensch, Mr. Johnson. Bless you. May you live long and may you always be a powerful and persuasive voice for goodness in the world.

With heartfelt regret,
My 2 Cents

908 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:04:54pm

Rather than close your account, I hope you'll take a close look at the absurdity of what you have been posting in this thread.

You don't advance the cause of science by teaching religious pseudo-science to children. The idea of spending an equal amount of time on creationism and evolution is completely insane, and it gets no respect from me because it does not deserve respect.

And I'm not even going to get into the stuff you posted in that other thread.

Maybe you're just naive and ignorant, and not dishonest. But you are arguing viewpoints that are not just stupid, they're evil.

909 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:05:30pm

My 2 Cents

Member for 4 years and 8 months.

Only 616 posts (about 1 every 3 days).

But 52 of those in the last 2 days.

And karma -97. So far.

It's as if a sleeper has awakened.

Muad Dib? Kwisatch Haderach? Is that you?

910 My 2 Cents  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:27:17pm

Charles:

I truly appreciate that you appear to be reconsidering the notion that I have been dishonest. Forgive me sir, but it is not enough. For if the only alternative, in your own words, is that I am "naive or ignorant" and far worse, that I am arguing viewpoints that are "not just stupid, they're evil" then once again, based on your words in comment 908, I am clearly not contributing positively to this site or to your worthy cause(s).

I have now already tried to close my account at the link you provide to manage my account. I did not find an option there to terminate my account. In light of the circumstances, I ask you to please close my account for me, for I do not wish to be tempted to post here again and simply embarrass myself further.

I thank you all. Keep up the good fight. The work you are doing is important and I salute you for it.

Goodbye.

911 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:33:30pm

Yes, I said "evil" and I meant "evil." It's utterly wrong to teach creationism as science, and it's evil to indoctrinate children with this garbage; it hurts the children, and it hurts our country to lose those minds that might have bloomed into something incredible with the right knowledge.

But you don't have to ask three times.

912 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:37:57pm

What My 2 Cents proposes is having churches flood biology classes with students programmed like zealous little zombic memebots with stuff like this:

[Link: ncseweb.org...]

You think that every high school biology teacher in a state (or nation)would be prepared to deal with multip[le cases of such cynically distorted propaganda onslaughts, every class period of day? Just look at what kinds of rhetorical shenanigans can be pulled arguing for a flat earth:

[Link: www.teachthemscience.org...]

While abstractly appealing, his suggestion, if concretely implemented, would pragmatically result in pedagogical disaster.

913 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:40:36pm

re: #912 Salamantis

What My 2 Cents proposes is having churches flood biology classes with students programmed like zealous little zombic memebots with stuff like this:

[Link: ncseweb.org...]

You think that every high school biology teacher in a state (or nation)would be prepared to deal with multiple cases of such cynically distorted propaganda onslaughts, every class period of every day? Just look at what kinds of rhetorical shenanigans can be pulled arguing for a flat earth:

[Link: www.teachthemscience.org...]

While abstractly appealing, his suggestion, if concretely implemented, would pragmatically result in pedagogical disaster.

Typos fixed.

914 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:42:45pm

Here is another example of what they'd try to do on a massive scale:

[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

915 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:50:27pm

I like this:

13 questions evolution can answer, intelligent design cannot

[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

Mr. Bratteng’s 13 Questions

1) Why does giving vitamin and mineral supplements to undernourished anemic individuals cause so many of them to die of bacterial infections?

2) Why did Dr. Heimlich have to develop a maneuver to dislodge food particles from people’s wind pipes?

3) Why does each of your eyes have a blind spot and strong a tendency toward retinal detachment? But a squid whose eyesight is just as sharp does not have these flaws?

4) Why are depression and obesity at epidemic levels in the United States?

5) When Europeans came to the Americas, why did 90 percent of the Native Americans die of European diseases but not many Europeans died of American diseases?

6) Why do pregnant women get morning sickness?

7) Why do people in industrialized countries have a greater tendency to get Crohn’s disease and asthma?

8) Why does malaria still kill over a million people each year?

9) Why are so many of the product Depends sold each year?

10) Why do people given anti-diarrheal medication take twice as long to recover from dysentery as untreated ones?

11) Why do people of European descent have a fairly high frequency of an allele that can make them resistant to HIV infection?

12) Close to home: Why do older men often have urinary problems?

13) And why do so many people in Austin get cedar fever?

I'll give Mr. Bratteng's answers in the next post.

916 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 9:51:31pm

Mr. Bratteng's answers:

1. Anemia is one of the body’s ways of combating bacteria because lack of iron limits the bacteria. Malnourished person lack strong immune systems, and giving iron feeds the bacteria, which the body cannot combat.

2. Evolutionarily our respiratory system developed by forming a connection with the swim bladder of certain fish; this resulted in a crossover between it and the digestive tract. Because of this crossover, people are susceptible to choking on food items accidentally entering the windpipe.

3. Vertebrate and squid eyes have very different evolutionary origins, arising in very different ways. The vertebrate pattern happens to leave the retina open to a much greater tendency to become detached.

4. Changes in our life styles, including diet and activity levels have come about so recently that human populations have not had a chance to have natural selection cause compensatory adaptations.

5. This is a fairly complicated relationship that depends a lot on the greater contact between Europeans and animals than was true in the Americas. Among the effects was that Europeans in general had immunity to many diseases normally found in animals, but native Americans did not.

6. Morning sickness during the first trimester of pregnancy protects the developing fetus from harmful substances in spicy or other foods with strong flavors. Some of these substances can cause developmental problems because the fetus is at a critical time for development.

7. In sanitized industrialized countries few people have intestinal parasites. In developing countries the incidence of these parasites is fairly widespread, and the body attacks them using Immunoglobulin E. When no parasites are there to be attacked, these antibodies sometimes attack a person’s own body.

8. The virulence of a disease is strongly linked to its method of transmission from one person to another. The fact that it has been difficult to eliminate the mosquito vectors, and, the sicker someone is, the more likely it is for the mosquitoes to get to them. Also, the malaria agent is protected by the fact that it develops inside cells where the immune system cannot get at them easily.

9. As one gets older, the sphincter muscles are less effective in regulating urine flow, and, in women who have given birth, the ligament holding the bladder in position can get stretched so it is in a the wrong place to have the proper control. [A restraint imposed by historical path, and which evolution typically cannot eliminate, inasmuch as it does not present as a problem until after reproductive years.]

10. Diarrhea is the body’s way to get rid of organisms that should not be there. By suppressing the diarrhea you take longer to remove the problem organisms.

11. As it turns out HIV uses a similar method of attack as diseases that raged through Europe – as during the Black Death. [Smallpox may also have played a role in this.]

12. The urethra passes through the prostate gland of males; as men age the prostate often enlarges, and this causes the urethra to be constricted. [Another restraint which evolution typically cannot eliminate, inasmuch as it does not present as a problem until after reproductive years, usually.]

13. Allergies in general are an over-reaction to harmless substances like pollen. If the immune system did not respond to foreign substances, we would be defenseless against disease agents. This response is likened to having a smoke detector that warns you, if the house catches on fire, but also goes off, if you burn your toast.

917 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:00:50pm

re: #912 Salamantis

That's an excellent piece on creationist debating tactics - and a good lesson in the futility of engaging them on their terms.

918 JonQuixote  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:03:14pm

Charles:

As a great admirer of LGF, I admit I've found it curious (and sometimes frustrating) to scroll past your coverage of the creationists-in-schools controversy, to get to your stories that I'm most interested in. But now that you've explained in detail your interest in the matter (which I support 100%), and why you post the stories as you do, and seeing this exchange between you and My 2 Cents, I think the situation we're in would perplex our Founders.

Where in the Constitution they wrote for us does it say that the federal government (or government in general) shall have any involvement or interference in education at any level? And do not the very concepts of liberty, of individual rights, of economic freedom that they laid forth, implicitly dictate that parents have the inherent right to send their children to any school that they choose? This is where I believe the debate, the activism, needs to be focused, at least with the intensity and effort as is being put forth re the creationism v. evolution controversy.

I say this not to be a contrarian, but to suggest that at a time when so many Americans have become convinced that the Bible is the literal word of God, and as they are taxpayers, given our system, they are going to fight for their values to be taught to their kids in the public schools they are forced to pay for - or at least not to have things taught to them that contradict what they believe.

Conversely, let's imagine a US community in which Muslims have a significant minority, if not a 50% +1 majority. As they are taxpayers too, and have a different version of creationism that they want their kids to grow up with, what is to prevent them from pushing this variant of creationism to be taught in the public schools that they are forced to support and send their kids to? On principle, given our current educational structure, they would have every right to push for this - and with the aid of CAIR, or an ad hoc group that forms just for this purpose, they might just get it.

The entire notion of a "public" school system is unworkable, as has been shown over the last half-century in particular. There is no way that people with wildly different views on essential subjects (religious, political, economic, etc.) can be forced to pay into one system, and not become infuriated when their kids come home reporting that they've been taught things that are the diametric opposite of what their parents believe, and want them instructed in.

To return to where I started, though, I commend you for highlighting this very-essential debate on your front page, and agree with you on the principles you hold (and so ably defend). I would just urge you to think in terms of the essentials I've described - because I see no way for this to end well, if current trends continue, each side becoming more entrenched, and our nation continuing to be ripped apart at the seams, as a result.

Until we get to a point where educational freedom is fought for and defended as vigorously as we've ever fought for anything else, I don't see this debate going anywhere except to mirror the political pendulum that is swinging farther and farther to the extremes of each side, with the typical American citizen becoming more infuriated with each passing year.

Thanks for considering this, Charles.

An avid reader and great admirer -
JonQ

919 Flavia  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:18:18pm

Thank you, Charles. That was so beautifully, forcefully and concisely put.

Was it Einstein who said that evolution was G-d's toolbox, or is that an urban legend?

920 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:22:08pm

So far, we have two down-dingers who apparently want a theocracy in America.

921 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:23:10pm

re: #918 JonQuixote

The 1st Amendment prevents federal favor of one religious dogma over another, and teaching religious dogma as empirical fact in high school science classes also violates its Establishment Clause by abrogating the freedom of parents not to have religious dogmas taught to their children that contradict their faiths. The 14th Amendment applies the federal constitutional prohibitions to the states.

It is in the economic, social cohesion, and national security of the United States to provide the children of its citizenry with free education. To allow the unconstitutional determination to insert religious dogma into public high school science classes on the state, district, or county level would allow the Disco Institute and other creationism/ID shills to work their propaganda voodoo many times over, on smaller political administrations that would be less resistant to clerical pressure applied by Disco-Institute-egged-on church congregations in their areas, and result in the balkanizing hamstringing of the US primary school educational enterprise. It is a recipe for national catastrophe.

922 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 10:26:24pm

re: #917 Charles

That's an excellent piece on creationist debating tactics - and a good lesson in the futility of engaging them on their terms.

Thanxabunch, Charles; kudos from the Big Lizard are greatly appreciated...;~)

923 JonQuixote  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:11:32pm

921 Salamantis

Perhaps I could have been clearer, or you misunderstood. You said:

It is in the economic, social cohesion, and national security of the United States to provide the children of its citizenry with free education. To allow the unconstitutional determination to insert religious dogma into public high school science classes on the state, district, or county level would allow the Disco Institute and other creationism/ID shills to work their propaganda voodoo many times over...

The last thing I want is for religious dogma to be taught in public schools; you'll find no more ardent opponent of it than me. And yet, as one observer noted some years ago (the name escapes me), we already have religious dogma taught in practically every public school in America right now, today - "statolatry" - the worship of the state.

Re "economic and social cohesion," the results that our "public schools" have produced prove that we are making that goal all but impossible, and in fact are destroying it:

- Only 5% of American adults can correctly answer 10 of the most basic questions regarding the U.S. Constitution. 61% of Americans cannot name the three branches of the federal government (25% cannot name any). One-third of college students are deemed “totally clueless” about the division of powers set forth in the Constitution.
[Center for Survey Research & Analysis survey of 1,012 adults nationwide, 5/16/01 - 6/6/01, for the First Amendment Center's report, “The State Of The First Amendment, 2001;” The American Bar Association: “Perceptions of the U.S. Justice System,” (1999); “Losing America's Memory: Historical Illiteracy in the 21st Century,” the 2001 report by the American Council of Trustees & Alumni.]

- 69% of Americans believe (or don’t know if) the U.S. Constitution contains Karl Marx’s doctrine, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” (up from 45% in 1987).
[Caravan Group 2002 survey of 1012 U.S. adults 18 and older, for Columbia Law School, cited in “Americans Don’t Know Their Constitution: Columbia Law Survey Finds Confusion Over Founding Fathers vs. Karl Marx,” 5/29/02; “The American Public's Knowledge of the U.S. Constitution: A Hearst Report” (New York, 1987).]

- Most Americans think the U.S. Constitution guarantees each citizen a “right” to health care, education, etc. But 92% cannot name even three of the rights contained in the First Amendment.
[StrategyOne poll of 1,000 adults for the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, 6/7-14/02; Survey of 1,000 American adults by Synovate, for the McCormick Tribune Freedom Foundation, Jan. 20-22, 2006.]

- Today, we are approaching the point at which more than 50% of our citizens are reliant upon government for a majority of their income and benefits (source unavailable, but I've seen the study)

If I, as one who accepts evolution, am unable to convince my neighbor of this view, of these facts, then I should no more be able to force his kids to go to my kids' school (or to force him to pay for my kids' school), than he should be able to force mine to go to/pay for his.

The creationists' vs. evolutionists' conflict aside, if I ever do have kids, I will do whatever I must to prevent them from being indoctrinated in any ideology - whether the "statolatry" indicated above, or any form of creationistic/theocratic dogma, in any forced echo-chamber.

That's the point I was trying to make: that by forcing me and my neighbor to support and send our kids to one school, the outcome is going to more than likely be anger and divisiveness, whereas if we were honoring and practicing our liberty, the conflict never would have arisen in the first place.

924 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 14, 2009 11:36:48pm

re: #923 JonQuixote

Even childless people pay taxes to fund our public school systems, and I view this as a US citizen's obligation, and a surpassingly cheap one, considering the benefits of US citizenship - residency, peace, freedom, and opportunity to prosper. If you want your child to go to another public school, move within that school's district. If you don't want your child to go to ANY public school, either pay to send your child to a private school, or homeschool. But to completely dismantle our public school system would be to play into the creationists' fallback position; if they cannot selectively destroy public school science education, they will settle for destroying ALL public school education.

925 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 7:20:17am

re: #918 JonQuixote

Conversely, let's imagine a US community in which Muslims have a significant minority, if not a 50% +1 majority. As they are taxpayers too, and have a different version of creationism that they want their kids to grow up with, what is to prevent them from pushing this variant of creationism to be taught in the public schools that they are forced to support and send their kids to?

This is exactly why we keep religion out of public schools. Because if we let Christian creationism in, everyone else will want their version of creationism in too.

At this time, there is nothing stopping parents from sending their children to private schools except perhaps the cost. But by eradicating public schools, you would be damning poor children to no education at all, and how does that help this country as a whole to increase the number of uneducated persons?

No one at LGF denies there are a number of issues in our schools that need correcting, but let's not toss the baby out with the bath water as our first solution.

926 locogalt  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 7:26:59am

you would think that a truly faithful person could see there god being able to set evolution in motion as creation. After all God would have all eternity. Their own lack of faith shows when they argue literal interpretation of a book written before people knew what a microbe was.

927 JonQuixote  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 7:38:25am

re: #924 Salamantis

We pay taxes to support the "public" school system because we are forced to - not because of any "obligation" that we signed up for, like signing a contract for a car loan or mortgage. We are subverting ourselves - and the very freedoms that I know LGF, and I assume you, hold dear - because about 95% of our kids either don't even know how and why our nation was founded, or are being taught a perverted version of it. What they are being taught is that might - specifically, the size of one's gang/constituency, whether religious or secular - makes right, and they call it "democracy." This is the basis of the creationists' power, and we've handed it to them.

They believe that if they can just sway that one last vote on a local/state school board to vote their way, voila - success! Conversely, evolutionists see things the same way. Because that's the way the system is set up.

My original comment does not "destroy" public education - and I resent your implicitly lumping me in with the creationists. My comment, what I advocate(d), is the liberation of education from anyone who says that the lives, the futures, the minds of our kids should be determined by some board of 5, 7 or 107 individuals, and a simple majority vote.

Free people have the inherent right to determine for themselves where their kids will go to school, and it is an assault on that freedom to say (as you did) that if they want to exercise their freedom, they should have to pay twice - once to support a school system that teaches the inverse of what they believe in, and again, to send their kids to another school.

I'd remind you what was said in "A Nation At Risk," the report produced in 1983:
"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. As it stands, we have allowed this to happen to ourselves."

It's only gotten worse since then - far worse. At best, our public schools are mass-producing citizens who are historically and economically illiterate; at worst, they (most) are being wired to dismiss our Founders as irrelevant, accept collectivist-statist doctrines, and believe government and society "owe them" (insert benefit here).

And as to the original subject of this thread, they are also being wired to have "respect" and "tolerance" for all points of view, especially if there's lots of muscle (voting numbers/political influence) behind them. Creationists are one of those constituencies - and they pay to support this public school system, too. So it is logical that they are going to fight to have their views represented, or at least not (as they view it) assaulted.

America will not survive if present trends continue - and the saddest thing is, the young generation won't even know what is being lost, because no one ever taught it to them, least of all our "public" school system.

928 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 7:43:26am

re: #927 JonQuixote

Again- no one at LGF is denying that our education system needs correcting. I'm not sure what your point is beyond bitching about it.

929 JonQuixote  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 7:52:09am

re: #925 Sharmuta

As I noted earlier, there already is a religion being taught in almost every "public school" classroom, every day - "statolatry" - the worship of government, and government power.

I understand what you're saying, but I know that if our schools were finally liberated, there would be no shortage of contributions to a fund to help poor parents send their kids to a school where they'll actually be educated. And if the school doesn't perform, to send them to another - to have that freedom. To enjoy the benefit of a competitive marketplace, just like we have for pretty much every other value that we want and need.

Frederic Bastiat laid out the principles of this controversy, 150 years ago, in "The Law." With the exception of his argument that our rights come from God, he lays out a very logical argument for freedom, including freedom in education:
[Link: land.netonecom.net...]

930 JonQuixote  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 7:59:14am

re: #928 Sharmuta

My point is that the way the system is set up, the group with the most political muscle will always win, whether it's the creationists, or the statists, or the (insert interest group here). So naturally, the system is going to pit one group against another, while we sacrifice one generation of kids after another.

My point is that this entire system is corrupt, and can only lead to destruction.

My point is that if our Founders ever thought that we'd devolve to the point where we actually accept that a (any) "board" of appointed/elected individuals should be legally empowered to determine what our kids learn, and that we'd submit to honor and pay for the outcome - especially if we were vehemently against it - I think they would have said, "To hell with it - they're going to throw away everything we're fighting for."

931 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 8:05:20am

re: #929 JonQuixote

I think you idea of a solution will be met with more resistance than creationists resisting evolution. The unions, the bureaucrats, and many parents will fight to save the system, and the argument can be made that public schools do serve a public good. I think a better solution is for reform from within- improve standards, and other reforms such as allowing the removal of bad teachers. I'm all for vouchers where parents are given their portion of their taxes back to provide for their kids' educational needs.

I also know parents who bust their butts to not only pay their taxes for public schools but to also send their kids to a private one. Is it fair, not really. But they're sucking it up to do the best they can for their children. They're certainly not calling for the eradication of the public school system.

Another thing to keep in mind is many parents of all income levels just don't bother to deal with their children's education. Kids whose parents take the time tend to do better whether in public or private schools. Sorry- but I know some people of well off parents who went to private schools, went to college, and are now hoisting cases of liquor around. If parents don't care, their kids' education is going to suffer, no matter the monetary means or the school.

932 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 8:11:09am

re: #930 JonQuixote

Then I suggest you run for the school board and insist on real standards in your local schools, because I'm weary of republicans not willing to get into the trenches of the education problem but who would rather just scrap the entire system. It's not going to happen. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter. The citizens of this country are not going to elect people who will eradicate public education. They might, however, vote for people offering real solutions. Your solution is far too radical for average people even if they agree with you that the current system is inadequate.

933 Aye Pod  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 8:20:52am

re: #910 My 2 Cents

Making excuses for Spencer and his dodgy connections, advocating total capitulation to the demands of the creationists re teaching the subject in schools (which you began as an argument about what constitutes 'teaching' - which then morphed, incidentally) - yeah, honest or not (I still very much think the latter) I think I can see where you are coming from when you talk about not contributing positively to the site.

Byeee!

934 JonQuixote  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 8:25:00am

re: #931 Sharmuta

I hear what you're saying, and I can sense you are sincere.

But with all due respect, what you wrote sounds more like a eulogy for what was once a free society, that its own inhabitants sacrificed, because they refused to fight for, and teach their kids the most essential concept of freedom - starting with the freedom to not have ideas and dogmas we find repulsive rammed down our kids' throats. Or to allow ourselves to engage in an endless, devolving, rigged game of who has the most political power at any given moment in time, and to wield that power to advance or repel what is taught in our collectivist schools.

It's a game in which no one wins, but everyone loses, so long as we continue to play it.

I sense that I may have worn out my welcome on this thread, so I'll just leave it with this quote from Ayn Rand. Although she's primarily referring to economic issues, the principle is totally applicable to "public" education, and goes right to the heart of why creationists still wield so much power within it:

All “public interest” legislation (and any distribution of money taken by force from some men for the unearned benefit of others) comes down ultimately to the grant of an undefined, undefinable, non-objective, arbitrary power to some government officials. The worst aspect of it is not that such a power can be used dishonestly, but that it cannot be used honestly. The wisest man in the world, with the purest integrity, cannot find a criterion for the just, equitable, rational application of an unjust, inequitable, irrational principle.
- “The Pull-Peddlers,” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, p.170.

935 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 8:26:45am

Smells like ron paul.

936 JonQuixote  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 8:48:02am

re: #932 Sharmuta

Last comment:

Let me modify your statement to be applied to another value that most people need today - computers:

Then I suggest you run for the tech committee and insist on real standards the state computer factory, because I'm weary of (constituency group) not willing to get into the trenches of the computer problem but who would rather just scrap the entire government-run computer manufacturing system. It's not going to happen. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter. The citizens of this country are not going to elect people who will eradicate the entire government-run computer manufacturing system. They might, however, vote for people offering real solutions. Your solution is far too radical for average people even if they agree with you that the current system is inadequate.

Now do you see why we are where we are, now? Insert creationists, or evolutionists, or socialists, or Islamists, or any constituency group above, and that's what I mean when I say the system is rigged.

Can you imagine what kind of computers or software we'd get if it were all centralized and controlled by a government body, at the local or federal level? And if one has to go fight bureaucrats in order to get a momentary advantage over rival constituencies?

The answer: "Hang on a second - I have to install the state-issued vacuum tube that I just got, which I ordered six years ago, and had to save up for... be right back." Not.

I'm out. Thanks for the discussion.

937 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 9:19:53am

re: #936 JonQuixote

That is a piss poor analogy.

938 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 9:29:57am

I love all this talk about doing away with the public school system.

Here's a clue: it's not going to happen.

939 NonNativeTexan  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 9:36:36am

re: #938 Charles

No, it isn't going to happen. But, home schooling and private
middle and high schools are gaining "market" share. The answer is
school vouchers, which if allowed, will raise the effectiveness of both
public and private schools.

940 locogalt  Sun, Feb 15, 2009 1:06:11pm

No ending the public indoctrination system won't happen but as a proponent of evolution I believe that talking about the issue will help education in America evolve as well.

as far as school vouchers go they will only be used by the government to claim the right to meddle within the institutions that accept them.

941 A.W.  Mon, Feb 16, 2009 6:22:54am

Gotta respond to this...

> The reason there are a lot of posts about Charles Darwin on the front page is that it was the 200th anniversary of his birthday on Thursday

It was also Lincoln's birthday, and how many posts did i see on that?

One. Even then you could only bring yourself to call him "arguably" our greatest president.

So my message is please less darwin and more jihadi fucktards. if you pardon my french.

Oh and more lincoln would be nice.

942 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 16, 2009 8:41:16am

re: #941 A.W.

Gotta respond to this...

> The reason there are a lot of posts about Charles Darwin on the front page is that it was the 200th anniversary of his birthday on Thursday

It was also Lincoln's birthday, and how many posts did i see on that?

One. Even then you could only bring yourself to call him "arguably" our greatest president.

So my message is please less darwin and more jihadi fucktards. if you pardon my french.

Oh and more lincoln would be nice.

You might want to brush up on the meaning of the word "arguably." The rest of your post is the usual thin-skinned whining.

943 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:00:20pm

re: #941 A.W.

Gotta respond to this...

> The reason there are a lot of posts about Charles Darwin on the front page is that it was the 200th anniversary of his birthday on Thursday

It was also Lincoln's birthday, and how many posts did i see on that?

One. Even then you could only bring yourself to call him "arguably" our greatest president.

Washington, Jefferson, and a few others also have legitimate arguments.

So my message is please less darwin and more jihadi fucktards. if you pardon my french.

Oh and more lincoln would be nice.

Charles will post as he sees fit. And the ongoing attempts at subverting the public high school science education of our youth by dogma-driven theocrats is eminently newsworthy. Perhaps you would prefer that someone egg the jihadi fucktards into committing more egregious atrocities, so there will be more to post about concerning them?

944 medaura18586  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:22:03pm

re: #938 Charles

I love all this talk about doing away with the public school system.

Here's a clue: it's not going to happen.

I know it's not gonna happen, yet I love it too.

I happen to fully agree with JonQuixote here (anyone can win me over by quoting Bastiat's "The Law"), but his suggestions are too impractical for the time being. A solution not quite as implausible would be unlimited school choice through a universal voucher system. The option has crept into the public discourse and a candidate as prominent as Giuliani backed the idea. School choice deserves serious consideration!

While it wouldn't do anything to satisfy JonQuixote's (and mine) opposition to public education on strictly moral grounds (taxpayers would still be forced to pay for these universal vouchers to subsidize the education of other people's children), at least decent and negative-externality-free education would emerge from such an infrastructure.

945 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:56:38pm

re: #944 medaura18586

[...] While it wouldn't do anything to satisfy JonQuixote's (and mine) opposition to public education on strictly moral grounds (taxpayers would still be forced to pay for these universal vouchers to subsidize the education of other people's children), at least decent and negative-externality-free education would emerge from such an infrastructure.

Just a question here, Medaura: Are you saying that in your ideal state, without public funding even for vouchers, people who couldn't afford to pay the full cost of tuition for their children would have to do without educating them at all?

Public education is a mess, as everyone knows. But should it all be privatized, some children would have no access to any schooling whatever. It seems like that's a recipe for even more ignorance than we now suffer from.

At least in the present system, and presumably more so under vouchers, some people seize the essence of what it means to learn and go on to do great things. Against huge odds, true, but still.

946 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:33:19pm

re: #945 Cato the Elder

The question is very interesting and would take a thread of its own for me to exhaustively answer. Let me see what I can do in one post:

In my ideal state liberty is paramount and uncompromised by egalitarian considerations. That being said, no possible society can come to value freedom sufficiently to institutionalize it, without first and foremost valuing human life. The values and convictions held by a statistical majority of my ideal state's citizens would ensure that people who can't afford to school their children be taken care of, through private donations and charities. Too far-fetched, you say? I'm not allowed to micro-engineer the disposition and character of each citizen of my ideal state, or of their statistical majority, you say?

Maybe so, but I just never understood why a society like ours, that has democratically elected representatives backing public education since time immemorial (and by extension, backing the premise that every child's education is a public/collective responsibility) needs to resort to political means to exert its will on the matter at all! Why, if an electoral plurality (a decent proxy of the popular will) is of the opinion that all children's education is everyone's responsibility, can't they simply chip in privately and individually to support educational charities? If the people representing a majority of the electorate supported universal education, they could individually make it happen. Why don't they?

It seems like a paradoxical situation to me, almost as if voters are not sincere or confident enough in their conviction that universal education ought to be supported, and need to authorize the state to enforce their own privately held convictions. Are they scared they wouldn't walk the walk if they were allowed the private prerogative of choosing whether, and by how much, to support the cause they claim to be firmly in favor of? Welfare is another such issue, for the sake of which, I believe the state is being elected as the populace's super ego, to coercively act on behalf of the voters' own fractured egos whom they can't seem to trust.

I think it is a sad state of affairs when people feel compelled to empower the government to enforce their own morality. If a majority of voters truly support universal education, they need not resort to government decree to make it happen. I myself would support all sorts of worthy causes -- including universal education -- if I have the means necessary.

Back to Planet Earth though, an immediate improvement on the current system would be unlimited school choice. It is one thing to debate whether universal education is a public/collective responsibility, and another thing to debate the means by which it should be implemented. The government mandates that drivers get car insurance, for example, but that doesn't mean the government has to PROVIDE the insurance. The market could do a fine enough job.

Why even have "public" (i.e. state run) education? Why not just an education tax credit (equivalent to a voucher) that parents can use as they see fit toward their children's education?

The deficiencies of public education in America are too acute and systematic to be satisfactorily addressed by any conceivable "reform" or patch-up solution. The non-competitive nature of state-run education is an insurmountable problem.

947 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:36:59pm

re: #945 Cato the Elder

Also, people who pop out large litters of children they can't afford to raise ought not to be rewarded with tax credits and benefits. Their children should be taken away from them and put up for adoption: they make horrible parents anyway, and they punish everyone else. The octuplets' story in the news is an enraging example: Unemployed single mother of 6 wants another 6 and gets another 8. She will get benefits totaling well over a million over her lifetime, part of which she has already invested in plastic surgery.

What about my unborn children? What about the unborn children of people so responsible that they would never bring a soul into this world without knowing they can guarantee it a secure future? I will hold off on reproduction until I know I am wealthy enough to support the material and full educational needs of my children, because I want the best for them, and I don't believe I have a right to impose on my fellow citizens' means to support my offspring. People see only Nadia's children, they will never see the children I decide not to bring into life.

The opportunity costs of even the most well-meaning forms of welfare are ultimately perverse.

948 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:39:23pm

The more the government confiscates from my income to support Nadia and her offspring, the less I will have left to warrant a secure and dignified future for my own family, and the smaller the family I eventually create.

That's just not right.

949 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #947 medaura18586

Also, people who pop out large litters of children they can't afford to raise ought not to be rewarded with tax credits and benefits. Their children should be taken away from them and put up for adoption: they make horrible parents anyway, and they punish everyone else.

Suppose somebody "pops out" a "large litter" that they can afford, and circumstances change, and they need help. Should their children be confiscated?

I will hold off on reproduction until I know I am wealthy enough to support the material and full educational needs of my children, because I want the best for them, and I don't believe I have a right to impose on my fellow citizens' means to support my offspring.

So you will wait until the future becomes more predictable?

950 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 1:34:36pm

re: #949 wrenchwench

Suppose somebody "pops out" a "large litter" that they can afford, and circumstances change, and they need help. Should their children be confiscated?

It is the parents who are taking a risk with the size of their "litter." If you can afford to raise 16 children today, put your money in a trust fund and never touch it. Also, get generous life insurance. If your financial circumstances changed, ask your extended family (your parents, aunts and uncles, and siblings, as well as those of your partner) for help; if they cannot fully meet the bare minimum for raising your children, ask your neighbors, resort to private charities. Everyone in this county who is in favor of universal education and/or welfare for the needy, ought, by the same sentiment motivating such views, be inclined to help you. It is the prerogative of your fellow citizens to help, but your need and the sheer unmanageable size of your "litter" in no way constitute (in my humble opinion, at least) a valid moral claim on my property and wealth, which I have busted my ass (and sacrificed a family) to accumulate.

So you will wait until the future becomes more predictable?

Yes I will. I will wait until I have enough assets for an endowment fund that will take care of my child's future.

951 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 1:38:20pm

re: #950 medaura18586

PIMF:

Everyone in this country who is in favor of universal education and/or welfare for the needy, ought, by the same sentiment motivating such views, be inclined to help you.


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 Frank says:

I'm not going to be Bill Clinton and say I never inhaled. I did inhale. I liked tobacco a lot better.