Missing Link Between Carnivores and Herbivores Discovered in Argentina

ScienceFebruary 2009 • Views: 3,134

Another transitional fossil—an intermediate species that shares characteristics with two distinct groups of animals—has been discovered in Argentina: an omnivorous dinosaur.

BUENOS AIRES (AFP) — Scientists have found fossil remains of an omnivorous dinosaur in Argentina — a missing link to the carnivores, a researcher said Monday.

“It is an omnivore — in other words it ate everything (plants and meat) — which is the missing link between carnivorous dinosaurs and giant four-footed herbivores,” said Oscar Alcober, also director of the Natural Sciences Museum in San Juan, 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) west of Buenos Aires.

“This is a very important piece of the puzzle on the origin of dinosaurs,” said Alcober.

Alcober and Ricardo Martinez, chief of the museum’s paleontology division, found the remains three years ago in the Ischigualasto-Valle de la Luna park, north of the provincial capital San Juan. They released their findings Monday in the online journal of peer reviewed science PlosOne.org.

(The paper doesn’t seem to be posted at the PLoS ONE site yet.)

UPDATE at 2/16/09 3:44:13 pm:

Here’s the paper, if you really want to read it, with the sexy title: A Basal Sauropodomorph (Dinosauria: Saurischia) from the Ischigualasto Formation (Triassic, Carnian) and the Early Evolution of Sauropodomorpha.

(Hat tip: Dom.)

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189 comments

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:01:06pm

Kragar Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:02:16pm

Spackling in the gaps

Racer X Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:02:55pm

Oh c'mom already. Everyone knows that dinosaurs are just grown up lizards.

jaunte Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:03:22pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

What would an Argentinian omnivore maté with?

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:03:44pm

And here's me thinking it was the last remaining fossil Nazi hiding in the jungles...........

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:04:38pm

re: #3 Racer X

Oh c'mom already. Everyone knows that dinosaurs are just grown up lizards.

Would you like a salad with that steak?

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:04:41pm

re: #4 jaunte

What would an Argentinian omnivore maté with?

A German expatriate in hiding from the Mossad?

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:04:49pm

You want omnivores? I got four boys around here, I can show you omnivores!

(Like the fossils, digging through dirt will be involved.)

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:04:56pm

Let's see here. Pigs are omnivores, crabs are omnivores & ... so are we!

Does that mean that quazzillions of years from now someone will decide that we are transitional fossils?

Between what & what, I wonder.

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:05:05pm

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:06:29pm

Lunch time

Today I have made, for myself, a ham, cheese and avocado on Rye................these an omnivore eying my lunch (piss off...)

Elcid Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:06:57pm

re: #4 jaunte

Anything it wanted to OR didn't eat.

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:06:59pm

re: #7 Nevergiveup

A German expatriate in hiding from the Mossad?

too late!

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:07:48pm

re: #13 A Kiwi Infidel

too late!

Well you were already down under and all?

jaunte Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:08:07pm

Valle de La Luna:
[Link: www.flickr.com...]

CyanSnowHawk Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:08:41pm

re: #9 unreconstructed rebel

Let's see here. Pigs are omnivores, crabs are omnivores & ... so are we!

Does that mean that quazzillions of years from now someone will decide that we are transitional fossils?

Between what & what, I wonder.

The skinny herbivore and the robust Carnivore.

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:08:56pm

Uh, oh....I can hear the vegans now....."it's extinct because it ate meat!"

In related news, palentologists found an odd fossil in Washington D.C. that claimed to be a Republican, but acted just like a Democrat. The grotesque carcas was named Arlenus Specterus......

Salamantis Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:09:00pm

Another gap bites the dust!
Another gap bites the dust!
And another gap down
And another gap down
And another gap bites the dust! Hey!

(With apologies to Queen)

Racer X Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:09:14pm

re: #10 buzzsawmonkey

That calls for a reprise of Nervous Norvus doing "Ape Call."

Listen and laugh.

Hepcat stuff daddy'o.

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:09:46pm

re: #16 CyanSnowHawk

The skinny herbivore and the robust Carnivore.

Gah! Tooo skinny.

jaunte Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:10:11pm

More Valle de La Luna:
[Link: www.flickr.com...]

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:10:15pm

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:10:26pm

Speaking of extinct creatures. Anyone notice Hilliary was out of the country?

calcajun Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:10:29pm

re: #3 Racer X

Oh c'mom already. Everyone knows that dinosaurs are just grown up lizards.

Oh, that is so for the birds!//

KronoGhazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:10:31pm

Very cool.

calcajun Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:11:19pm

re: #22 buzzsawmonkey

And it also shows how, some very few decades ago, people could joke about dinosaurs and Adam and Eve and all that without going completely nuts.

Flinstones! Meet the Flinstones! They're the modern stone-age family!

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:11:37pm

re: #14 Nevergiveup

Well you were already down under and all?

Yup, and ahead on time as well

Racer X Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:11:59pm

Hail is coming down like a sumbitch!

CyanSnowHawk Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:12:17pm

re: #23 Nevergiveup

Speaking of extinct creatures. Anyone notice Hilliary was out of the country?

Time for Obama to prank her office.

itellu3times Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:12:35pm

“It is an omnivore — in other words it ate everything (plants and meat) — which is the missing link between carnivorous dinosaurs and giant four-footed herbivores,” said Oscar Alcober, also director of the Natural Sciences Museum in San Juan, 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) west of Buenos Aires.

Charles, that's the goofiest comment I've read in a long time. Presumably the transition from ... waitaminute, I'm going to Google, ... OK. According to this, there was NO path from dinosaurs to mammals. Enuf said.

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:12:50pm

re: #22 buzzsawmonkey

And it also shows how, some very few decades ago, people could joke about dinosaurs and Adam and Eve and all that without going completely nuts.

Makes ya wonder what the hell happened, don't it?

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:13:52pm

re: #26 calcajun

Flinstones! Meet the Flinstones! They're the modern stone-age family!

You do realise, dont you, that the Flintstones spawned the Discovery Institute? This show is why they believe dinosaurs and man co-existed.

opnion Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:14:10pm

re: #23 Nevergiveup

Speaking of extinct creatures. Anyone notice Hilliary was out of the country?

She is either in or headed to China.
Makes you wonder if they are cutting her out of the Middle East.
Whatgever else I think about her, she is not likely to knuckle under to Hamas.

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:14:31pm

If it ate meat and vegetables, then maybe there could have been a market for the doomed McDLT....the hot side stays hot, the cool side stays cool......

Cato the Elder Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:14:45pm

Omnivorous. Does that mean it ate people, too?

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:11pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Omnivorous. Does that mean it ate people, too?

Only the slow, fat ones

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:20pm

re: #33 opnion

She is either in or headed to China.
Makes you wonder if they are cutting her out of the Middle East.
Whatgever else I think about her, she is not likely to knuckle under to Hamas.

nobody ever intimidated HC except BO...wtf?

Racer X Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:26pm

THAT'S MY PA by SHEB WOOLEY

LOL!

CyanSnowHawk Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:40pm

re: #34 LionOfDixon

If it ate meat and vegetables, then maybe there could have been a market for the doomed McDLT....the hot side stays hot, the cool side stays cool......

It was doomed the minute they decided that the cheese went on the cool side. Frakking McMorons.

Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:43pm

re: #30 itellu3times

Charles, that's the goofiest comment I've read in a long time. Presumably the transition from ... waitaminute, I'm going to Google, ... OK. According to this, there was NO path from dinosaurs to mammals. Enuf said.

It didn't say "mammals," it said "giant four-footed herbivores" -- for example, the brontosaurus.

Salamantis Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:50pm

re: #33 opnion

She is either in or headed to China.
Makes you wonder if they are cutting her out of the Middle East.
Whatgever else I think about her, she is not likely to knuckle under to Hamas.

Apparently, the last thing that Obama wants to do is send a feminist to the Middle East. Wonder why...

revobob Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:15:59pm

re: #30 itellu3timesWhere's the comment mention mammals?

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:16:02pm

re: #35 Cato the Elder

Omnivorous. Does that mean it ate people, too?

Only when the electrical fences failed. Didn't you see Jurassic Park?

Maximu§ Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:16:35pm

Missing Link Between Carnivores and Herbivores Discovered in Argentina

We found the missing link here on Television, its called the The View.

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:17:41pm

re: #41 Salamantis

Apparently, the last thing that Obama wants to do is send a feminist to the Middle East. Wonder why...

After all, the Obama has had sensitivity training.

/I love that my Mac still thinks Obama is a misspelling.

scottishbuzzsaw Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:17:47pm

re: #43 Nevergiveup

Only when the electrical fences failed. Didn't you see Jurassic Park?

"Clever girl."

revobob Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:17:53pm

Ugh! King Lizard faster by 16 seconds!

itellu3times Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:18:02pm

re: #40 Charles

It didn't say "mammals," it said "giant four-footed herbivores" -- for example, the brontosaurus.

Oh, that is different ... (Emily Latella voice) but I'm still not sure, will Google again.

goddessoftheclassroom Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:18:13pm

My favorite Super Bowl ad of all time--appropriate to this discussion!

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:19:00pm

Bizarre Animal Attack Rattles Stamford
Woman In Critical Condition After Being Attacked By Chimpanzee Inside Fairfield County Residence

200-Pound Animal Shot Dead By Police In Woods
Flashback: "Travis" Escaped And Caused Havoc In 2003

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

Maybe the chimp didn't get the memo that we were related?

opnion Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:19:08pm

re: #37 albusteve

nobody ever intimidated HC except BO...wtf?

They have cut her legs out. The Clintons can be nasty enemies.

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:19:12pm

"Get your hands off me, you damn, dirty Argentine omnivore!"
Cut!
"Hey Heston, what do you think if we change the dinosaurs to apes...I mean really mean, human-hating apes.......just spit-balling here......"

KronoGhazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:19:56pm

This site just makes me LOL hard...

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:20:10pm

re: #49 goddessoftheclassroom

I hadn't seen that. Funny.

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:20:35pm

re: #51 opnion

They have cut her legs out. The Clintons can be nasty enemies.

and it raises all kinds of speculation...maybe another time

opnion Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:20:54pm

re: #50 Nevergiveup

Bizarre Animal Attack Rattles Stamford
Woman In Critical Condition After Being Attacked By Chimpanzee Inside Fairfield County Residence

200-Pound Animal Shot Dead By Police In Woods
Flashback: "Travis" Escaped And Caused Havoc In 2003

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

Maybe the chimp didn't get the memo that we were related?

I think that he was heard screaming "I did not evolve from a Rosie O'Donnell like crature, damn it!"

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:22:03pm

re: #56 opnion

I think that he was heard screaming "I did not evolve from a Rosie O'Donnell like crature, damn it!"

Fortunately for us humans, she is an evolutionary dead-end.

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:22:27pm

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:22:43pm

re: #56 opnion

I think that he was heard screaming "I did not evolve from a Rosie O'Donnell like crapture, damn it!"

You left the "p" out.

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:23:37pm

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

Sure does.

I blame ~~fluoride~~ ~~Bush~~ ~~Al Gore~~ ~~religion~~ ~~atheism~~ oh, I don't know.

Just dont blame global warming, please, not the melting ice-caps

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:24:58pm

re: #56 opnion

I think that he was heard screaming "I did not evolve from a Rosie O'Donnell like crature, damn it!"

where did this chimp come from?....I mean who has a chimp for a pet?...I dont get the mystery

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:25:10pm

re: #59 A Kiwi Infidel

You left the "p" out.

I understand rapture, but you're gonna hafta explain crapture to me.

Is that like a spit-back after the rapture?

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:26:02pm

Despite all the menacing Hopey Change in the air, some things remain the same. This cartoon is from 1956:

[Link: www.moonbattery.com...]

Israeli Aggression

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:26:35pm

Anyone know how long it takes to get your HotAir password? I used my WordPress info to register, and they said they'd send a password, but it's been a while, and no password. They only open registration once in a blue moon, and I'm worried I've somehow done it wrong......

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:26:59pm

opnion Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:27:12pm

re: #57 unreconstructed rebel

Fortunately for us humans, she is an evolutionary dead-end.

The last of her kind.

redc1c4 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:27:53pm

did they find any footprints?

/white smoke

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:28:22pm

re: #65 ploome hineni

how do they determine this

teeth?

The take out restaurant menus found in his pockets?

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:28:36pm

opnion Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:28:38pm

re: #59 A Kiwi Infidel

typo

Eowyn2 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:28:54pm

re: #28 Racer X

Hail is coming down like a sumbitch!

Hail who?

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:28:59pm

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:29:15pm

calcajun Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:29:47pm

re: #32 A Kiwi Infidel

You do realise, dont you, that the Flintstones spawned the Discovery Institute? This show is why they believe dinosaurs and man co-existed.

Let us consult the Book of Hanna & Barbera, Chapter 5, verse 12....and lo did Fred say unto Wilma...

KronoGhazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:30:00pm

Dude... no, Duuude!

calcajun Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:30:42pm

re: #67 redc1c4

did they find any footprints?

/white smoke

White smoke? There's a new pope?

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:31:22pm

what's a friggin chimp doing running around loose in the cold up in friggin Conn?....twice three years apart?....my chimp stays put

calcajun Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:31:25pm

re: #57 unreconstructed rebel

Fortunately for us humans, she is an evolutionary dead-end.

Thank God, we got it before it could breed!

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:31:46pm

I'm watching "Rudy" again on TV. The movies ok, but I like he ND Fight song. What can I say?

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:31:53pm

re: #74 calcajun

Let us consult the Book of Hanna & Barbera, Chapter 5, verse 12....and lo did Fred say unto Wilma...

pretty funny!

Eowyn2 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:32:25pm

re: #65 ploome hineni

how do they determine this

teeth?

that's what I would guess. molars and canines?
eye sockets in the front of the head (may be carnivorous or omniverous but not a vegan)

CyanSnowHawk Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:32:32pm

re: #74 calcajun

Let us consult the Book of Hanna & Barbera, Chapter 5, verse 12....and lo did Fred say unto Wilma...

bear unto me a daughter, that I might wed her to the Son of the Rubble.

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:32:52pm

re: #79 Nevergiveup

I'm watching "Rudy" again on TV. The movies ok, but I like he ND Fight song. What can I say?

well as a U of M fan I have to say you suck...

Perplexed Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:33:19pm

So did someone dig up one of Helen Thomas' relatives?

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:33:53pm

re: #84 Perplexed

Helen Thomas has relatives?

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:34:01pm

re: #69 ploome hineni

don;t worry

you are safe here

:D

how ya doing?

:D It was easy registering here, and reg. opened within a week of when I first started watching for it. I'm fine. It's a holiday!

Eowyn2 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:34:15pm

re: #79 Nevergiveup

I'm watching "Rudy" again on TV. The movies ok, but I like he ND Fight song. What can I say?

ruuudy, ruuudy, ruuudy, ruuudy

opnion Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:34:38pm

re: #79 Nevergiveup

I'm watching "Rudy" again on TV. The movies ok, but I like he ND Fight song. What can I say?

The first time that I saw the Rudy , I thought that it was too shamltzy.
I watched it again & enjoyed it. The ND Fight Song is the best in sports.

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:34:43pm

re: #85 unreconstructed rebel

Helen Thomas has relatives?

yes...it is running around loose in Conn somewhere

Nevergiveup Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:34:47pm

Hamburgers are the Hummers of food in global warming

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Proof positive that McDonald's and Burger King contributed to wiping out the Carnivores!

dentate Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:34:59pm

re: #81 Eowyn2

that's what I would guess. molars and canines?
eye sockets in the front of the head (may be carnivorous or omniverous but not a vegan)

Only mammals have molars and canines. Dinosaur teeth were all the same except for size.

Perplexed Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:35:24pm

re: #85 unreconstructed rebel

Helen Thomas has relatives?

A broken off branch of the evolutionary tree.

Eowyn2 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:35:27pm

re: #73 ploome hineni

achtung!

ache tongue?

Eowyn2 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:36:50pm

re: #91 dentate

Only mammals have molars and canines. Dinosaur teeth were all the same except for size.

why would a dinosaur need sharp teeth if they are eating weeds. How do you chew through broccoli with nothing but the sharp teeth to rip and tear?

NonNativeTexan Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:36:56pm

re: #79 Nevergiveup

I'm watching "Rudy" again on TV. The movies ok, but I like he ND Fight song. What can I say?

Rudy on TV ? I've been ready for this my whole life!

Dom Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:37:08pm

Here it is on PlosOne.

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:37:52pm

re: #82 CyanSnowHawk

"And Flinstone, upon bended knee, pleaded with his master Slate, 'Let my people go.'" And his words were heard by the Grand Poobah.......

sillyquiet Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:38:02pm

re: #91 dentate

Only mammals have molars and canines. Dinosaur teeth were all the same except for size.

Not precisely true. Some herbivores, like the lambeosaurs, had batteries of flat grinding teeth in the back, with incisor-like teeth in front, and a large gap between them, kinda like horses.

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:38:08pm

re: #96 Dom

Here it is on PlosOne.

sorry...I couldn't past the title

100

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:38:47pm

re: #83 albusteve

You're going to love this. Heh heh heh.

Youtube Video

101

steve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:39:26pm

Oh big deal. My dogs have eaten grass.

102

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:39:30pm

re: #84 Perplexed

Frankly, since Cal Thomas shaved off his mustache, I'm having a helluva time telling him apart from old Helen......

103

jaunte Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:39:31pm

Here's the teeth bit:

Dentition.

Only the dentary teeth are preserved. There are at least 23 alveoli on the left dentary (Figure 4C) and apparently 22 on the right (Figure 4A). The teeth of Panphagia are slightly constricted at the base (Figure 4C, 5A) as in basal sauropodomorphs and some of the teeth of Eoraptor. Another feature of the teeth is the presence of labial and lingual eminences that extend along the crown (Figure 5A, B). A similar eminence is present on the labial surface of the crowns of Thecodontosaurus neotype, and Eoraptor, although in the latter the lingual surfaces are unexposed. As in other basal sauropodomorphs, the teeth of Panphagia have coarse oblique serrations on the anterior and posterior margins (Figure 5C) that differ from the fine, perpendicular serrations present in Saturnalia [19] and basal saurischians. The morphology and arrangement pattern are different between the anterior quarter and the rest of the tooth series, with a fairly abrupt transition occurring after the fourth or fifth tooth (Figure 4C). This is best observed in the left rather than the right jaw, as the latter has crowns that are dislodged from their alveoli. The anterior teeth are longer than the posterior, as in Saturnalia [34] and most basal sauropodomorphs. They are also less basally constricted, and more posteriorly recurved. The posterior teeth are smaller, more leaf-shaped, and present more marked serrations. Although the size of each tooth is similar, the height of the crown gradually decreases backwards. They are also closely apressed in a subimbricated pattern, whereas the anterior ones are more spaced. Again, this can be best seen in the left jaw, where the teeth are in their original position.

[Link: www.plosone.org...]

104

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:40:38pm

re: #101 steve

Oh big deal. My dogs have eaten grass.

Dogs are omnivores.

105

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:42:05pm

re: #100 Catttt

You're going to love this. Heh heh heh.

[Video]

oh man...they're everywhere...I liked the priest tho...that was clever really...but still I hate ND...I got to!

106

sillyquiet Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:42:22pm

re: #98 sillyquiet

Far be it from me to argue teeth with someone with 'dentate' for their nick though. :)

107

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:42:30pm

108

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:42:40pm

re: #102 LionOfDixon

Frankly, since Cal Thomas shaved off his mustache, I'm having a helluva time telling him apart from old Helen......

I know a way. Get them to stand up. Mr. Thomas is about two feet taller than Ms. Thomas.

109

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:42:52pm

re: #101 steve

Oh big deal. My dogs have eaten grass.

For the same reason we take ipecac.

110

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:43:24pm

re: #101 steve

Oh big deal. My dogs have eaten grass.

my dog ate my asphault driveway...for real

111

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:43:25pm

re: #105 albusteve

oh man...they're everywhere...I liked the priest tho...that was clever really...but still I hate ND...I got to!

Wanna fight? :D It's an Irish thing....

112

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:43:38pm

113

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:43:48pm

I thought Omnivores only ate upscale hotels and cheap Dodge crapmobiles.....stupid me.

114

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:44:36pm

re: #111 Catttt

Wanna fight? :D It's an Irish thing....

the Irish in me inclines be to drinking...cheers!

115

Cato the Elder Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:44:44pm

re: #36 A Kiwi Infidel

Only the slow, fat ones

You mean like these?

116

quickredfox Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:45:32pm

re: #61 albusteve

where did this chimp come from?....I mean who has a chimp for a pet?...I dont get the mystery

There are people who like to have "exotic" animals as pets for various reasons. Some states are less restrictive than others, but even where restricted, people will keep them illegally. The animal starts out as a cute baby, then grows up of course. Usually it ends badly for the animal and often for people as well. There have been some pretty horrific attacks by "pet" chimps. (Not to mention lions, tigers, cougars, etc.) People seem to think that by raising these animals by hand they will grow up to look upon the human as a human would look upon another loved family member. But the animal will do what comes naturally to the animal, and animals can be pretty violent to one another. I remember reading about Jane Goodall being a bit surprised when some years into her study, she discovered that chimps would not only hunt small animals for meat, they would even kill and eat other chimps.

117

itellu3times Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:46:12pm

re: #65 ploome hineni

how do they determine this

teeth?

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Who says a t. rex didn't take a little parsley, to freshen the breath?

But OK, what seems to be the case here is that the original dinosaurs are taken to be small carnivores, so even if the later species were mostly herbivores, how does one get from here to there?

Well, there were probably about a zillion intermediate forms, like dogs today that eat pretty much any human diet, though that's a long way from a herbivorous canine.

By the time that an omnivore had evolved enough changes that you can tell it from the skeleton, things were probably pretty far along. Need a lot more details to guess if any particular instance that looks like an omnivore, yet seems like the predecessor to any later species.

My negative reaction was based on the idea that it's a big deal to go from carnivore to herbivore, the point being it probably happened really early, well it had to, in order for those big herbivorous forms to become common. Wikipedia suggests the dinosaurs had a long period when they were rare - and presumably small. OTOH, the explosion of species came about 15-30 million years later. I doubt a single example would clear this up very much.

118

aussie_dave Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:47:45pm

re: #101 steve

Oh big deal. My dogs have eaten grass.

Dogs require vegetable matter but don't have all the required enzymes to digest vegetable matter easily. They obtained required vegetable based nutrition from eating the stomachs of prey including its contents.

Other prominent omnivores are humans. Birds are omnivores too. I don't see why it is such a great discovery that a dinosaur was an omnivore too. More likely it reflects lack of knowledge about the diet of many dinosaurs. Anyway the value of the article is that knowledge is increasing but to say this is a missing link is like having a hot day and blaming global warming.

119

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:48:27pm

Did you hear about the fat, slow prehistoric Argentinian comedian? His name was Art Carne.....
Try the veal, I'm hear all week.....

120

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:48:35pm

re: #116 quickredfox

yes I can imagine all that but there was no indication of ownership or circumstance in the article....
"chimp shot dead in freezing Conn"....happens all the time eh?

121

Sunlight Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:48:37pm

I've met this man before. Harrison Schmitt walked on the moon. He used to be a senator. He does seem reasonable, but now, with ID twisted around everything, I can't figure it out. Is Heartland Institute an ID supporter? I looked at their website and don't see anything about it, but I may not know all the buzzwords.
Former astronaut speaks out on global warming

122

Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:49:10pm

I was wondering when the first creationist would show up and dismiss this out of hand. Took about 47 minutes.

123

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:51:31pm

re: #114 albusteve

the Irish in me inclines be to drinking...cheers!

Cool. I'll wait until you're drunk. :D

124

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:51:41pm

Yeah....maybe they got it wrong.....maybe they found the fossilized skeleton of a single, young woman golfer and meant to say it was a linking miss.......

125

Dom Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:51:52pm

Apologies jaunte, I found it independently and got the credit but I see you had already posted it in the spinoff links. Thanks for posting it Charles.

126

quickredfox Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:53:01pm

re: #120 albusteve

yes I can imagine all that but there was no indication of ownership or circumstance in the article....
"chimp shot dead in freezing Conn"....happens all the time eh?

I was wondering about that too -- kept reading through the article waiting for it to say who the owner was. It had been in trouble before and wouldn't have been just roaming around wild all that time. Maybe whoever the owner was isn't known yet and isn't saying anything. I've heard of a couple of cases of lions and tigers showing up loose and it taking awhile to find out just where they came from.

127

jaunte Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:53:13pm

re: #125 Dom

No worries; I'm still reading through it.

128

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:54:41pm

re: #123 Catttt

Cool. I'll wait until you're drunk. :D

friggin Mick

129

quickredfox Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:54:50pm

Although I would think they must know who the owner was, since it was recaptured that first time.

130

Ayeless in Ghazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:55:54pm

From Ted Talks - Barry Schuler: An introduction to genomics

[Link: www.ted.com...]

131

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:56:29pm

re: #129 quickredfox

Although I would think they must know who the owner was, since it was recaptured that first time.

just sensationalism...raises more questions than it answers

132

quickredfox Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:57:20pm

And looking at the story again, they have its name and say it is well known. So there's more to this. I guess we'll just have to, as the article says, "stay with CBS 2 HD and wcbstv.com for more on this developing story."

133

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:57:55pm

re: #122 Charles

I was wondering when the first creationist would show up and dismiss this out of hand. Took about 47 minutes.

Forgive me, but isn't this a bit like shooting over a baited field?

134

Catttt Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:57:56pm

re: #128 albusteve

friggin Mick

Youtube Video

135

LionOfDixon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:58:22pm

Wile E. Coyote was also something of an Omnivore.....he wanted to eat roadrunner, but always ended up eating crow......Okay, there's just something about omnivorous Argentine dinosaur fossils that brings out the silly in me.....go figure.

136

quickredfox Mon, Feb 16, 2009 3:58:26pm

re: #131 albusteve

just sensationalism...raises more questions than it answers

Yes! Chimps of mystery. Gets us to come back for more.

137

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:01:01pm

re: #101 steve

Oh big deal. My dogs have eaten grass.

If they are like my dogs they only eat grass when they want to induce vomitting, usual after they have demolished a bone and want to throw up the left-overs.

138

albusteve Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:02:24pm

re: #134 Catttt

:D

[Video]

oh man!...one of my very top alltime movies...V McLaughlin was flat out awsome....now I wanna watch it again

139

unreconstructed rebel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:03:04pm

Errand time. Gotta go.

140

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:03:27pm

141

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:04:26pm

Time to find out why I may be a fascist, I have certainly been called a bigot, so there should be no surprises......

142

jaunte Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:04:54pm

re: #140 buzzsawmonkey

Someone is bound to try to find a gap in these teeth.

143

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:06:34pm

re: #140 buzzsawmonkey

I thought creationists were avid for the appearance of transitional fossils? Certainly there have been a number of such posters demanding that they be produced.

I guess the old adage holds true; when you get what you want you don't want it any more.

The thing that throws the spanner in the works for the "young earth" crowd is there are never any human remains with dinosaur remains, never, nada and then they go all ape-shit on you.

144

A Kiwi Infidel Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:07:19pm

re: #142 jaunte

Someone is bound to try to find a gap in these teeth.

Fill the gap, become a dentist.

That has the makings of a bumper sticker

145

Achilles Tang Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:11:45pm

re: #96 Dom

Here it is on PlosOne.

Right, and we are supposed to read that?

What's the matter, no faith in Charles?

146

Achilles Tang Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:13:20pm

re: #140 buzzsawmonkey

I thought creationists were avid for the appearance of transitional fossils? Certainly there have been a number of such posters demanding that they be produced.

I guess the old adage holds true; when you get what you want you don't want it any more.

No, the reason they want more transitionals is that every one of them gives them (creationists) another two gaps to whine about.

147

Ayeless in Ghazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:20:10pm

I asked a creationist on youtube the other day to explain the strange catastrophe that must have befallen all the rabbit fossils in the lower strata while leaving other equally small and fragile but apparently ancient fossils intact. His answer was that he didn't want to talk to 'people like me' who 'wouldn't listen'. So, naturally enough, I blocked him from commenting again on my youtube page. Next thing the idiot is whining away on his own page and demanding to know why he was blocked.

148

aussie_dave Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:22:18pm

re: #122 Charles

I am taking a wild guess and assuming you mean me. Not so much of a creationist as an open mind. How about argue the facts not denigrate the person?

149

Colonel Panik Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:26:18pm

Not to surprising really. The only thing that surprises me about it is that it was not discovered sooner. Some modern day reptiles are omnivorous. Iguanas, for one.

150

aussie_dave Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:28:22pm

re: #149 Colonel Panik

That is my point too.

151

itellu3times Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:28:39pm

re: #96 Dom

Here it is on PlosOne.

OK now.

The new specimen shares some features with Saturnalia, ...

Seriously, someone named a dinosaur group Saturnalia?!

...such as the anteroventral inclination of the distal border of the scapular blade, dorsally expanded distal end of the ischium, lateral border of the astragalus anteroposteriorly wider than the medial border, acute posteromedial angle of the astragalus in proximal view, and ascending process of the astragalus subrectangular with long axis anteroposterior and broader laterally than medially.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Whatever it means.

But FWIW, the chart they give doesn't show any descendants of this panphagia, but apparently it's an early branching, so maybe. From googling around dinosaur stuff this afternoon (happy presidents' day!) seems a lot of species looked a whole lot alike. Which is just what one expects from evolution - look at all of Darwin's finches, or beetles.

I also didn't see any carbon or flourine or whatever dating on this, or on the geologic formation, might not that count for something?

152

Victory Gin For All Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:29:59pm

On the one hand, I'm glad that I won't be cast into an eternal lake of fire for drinking whiskey and cursing.

And...

I'm glad I won't have to answer for putting a pound of imitation crabmeat under the drivers seat of some white trash land barge that blocked me in that hot, summer evening at the school carnival.

But on the other hand, I'm bummed that death is the end, I'll never be with my loved ones again, and that I do not have a celestial dictator to whom I can plead my pathetic cases for his benevolent intervention and guidance.

Shit! I'm on my own!

153

Basho Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:34:38pm

re: #64 Catttt

OT

Anyone know how long it takes to get your HotAir password? I used my WordPress info to register, and they said they'd send a password, but it's been a while, and no password. They only open registration once in a blue moon, and I'm worried I've somehow done it wrong......

Take it as a hidden blessing ;D

154

Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:36:35pm

re: #133 unreconstructed rebel

Forgive me, but isn't this a bit like shooting over a baited field?

I don't think so -- my post doesn't say one word about creationism. As far as I'm concerned, it's another interesting scientific discovery.

But it's apparently threatening to some people.

155

Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:37:45pm

re: #148 aussie_dave

I am taking a wild guess and assuming you mean me. Not so much of a creationist as an open mind. How about argue the facts not denigrate the person?

I guess you fooled me with this comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

156

Colonel Panik Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:38:17pm

When I was a kid I remember reading about a prehistoric critter called cynognathus. Thought at the time was it was a link between reptiles and mammals, was carnivorous, had a somewhat doglike head.

157

theheat Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:39:39pm

re: #41 Salamantis

I have a feeling if Obama let Hillary off her leash, she'd have the biggest balls of the two, by far.

158

theheat Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:40:32pm

re: #154 Charles

Why do you hate rainbows and kittens and apple pie?

159

cronus Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:41:09pm

re: #18 Salamantis

Another gap bites the dust!
Another gap bites the dust!
And another gap down
And another gap down
And another gap bites the dust! Hey!

(With apologies to Queen)

Don't celebrate too soon. Remember, according to creationist logic every time you find a transitional fossil you create two more gaps...

160

KronoGhazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:43:03pm

So can you not believe in evolution, and not be a creationist at the same time?

161

Basho Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:43:45pm

re: #156 Colonel Panik

Yeah, mammal-like reptiles are us mammal's ancestors. But they weren't dinosaurs unfortunately :(
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

162

Basho Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:45:48pm

re: #161 Basho

Descendants of the dinosaurs, flight... Birds have all the fun =/

163

notutopia Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:52:31pm

The slideshow in the article shows the skeletal bones.
The sixth slide down on the left hand border, is one of the massive jaw and the row of teeth.
Huge pointy anterior teeth for meat ripping, and the posterior teeth are flattened for grinding vegetation and pulp mastication. I would imagine it had a huge tongue to move the food around in it's mouth.

[Link: www.plosone.org...]

164

aussie_dave Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:52:35pm

re: #154 Charles

The biggest threat to unsupportable views is dissent.

Only in democracies is dissent tolerated.

No personal attacks can ever overwhelm truth. Truth is not guided by one man or group, it is found through communities honestly testing their beliefs and using logic and reason to determine it.

Consensus is never possible, but the lack of consensus should not be feared. Respect for differing views on both sides should be presumed.

165

Basho Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:57:22pm

re: #164 aussie_dave

There is such a thing as irrational rationality:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

166

KronoGhazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:58:06pm

Where's the personal attack?

Do you believe in creationsim?

167

Basho Mon, Feb 16, 2009 4:58:18pm

re: #165 Basho

Pseudorationality is perhaps a more accurate way to put it...

168

aussie_dave Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:02:04pm

re: #165 Basho

Yes I admit I am a global warming denier/skeptic/whatever the insult is.

On Evolution, still am not convinced on the leap from Natural selection to Evolution.

Do I really deserve "ad hominen" attacks because of that? (We think he believes in creationism, burn him, or even worse, ban him!)

169

aussie_dave Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:08:03pm

I hate you because you don't believe what I do. I won't argue with you on the facts but I will label you as a nutjob/creationist/kuffar/racist/GW denier (tick whichever is applicable) to shut you up.

I will find ways to punish you because you don't agree with me. And when all the unbelief is purged then we will achieve Da- el- singularity

/sarc

170

KronoGhazi Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:13:05pm

re: #168 aussie_dave

Do I really deserve "ad hominen" attacks because of that? (We think he believes in creationism, burn him, or even worse, ban him!)

You're reading a little too much into it. There's no doubt that you can get flack for being a creationist, but being banned for it? Come on. Dissent for the sake of dissent isn't necessarily noble.

I'm trying to get my head around not believing in evolution, but in natural selection, but does that make you a creationist?

171

Achilles Tang Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:47:49pm

re: #160 BigPapa

So can you not believe in evolution, and not be a creationist at the same time?

Sure, ID. (or so they say)

172

filbert23 Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:52:41pm

Mighty fine reading, that was. Kept me on the edge 'o' my seat the entire time!

173

Achilles Tang Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:53:49pm

re: #164 aussie_dave

Truth is not guided by one man or group, it is found through communities honestly testing their beliefs and using logic and reason to determine it.

Then just stick to expressing logic and reason instead of complaining about being attacked.

Unfortunately however, if your logic and reason is found lacking, then that will be attacked. You will mostly only be attacked for your reactions.

174

Salamantis Mon, Feb 16, 2009 5:57:37pm

re: #164 aussie_dave

The biggest threat to unsupportable views is dissent.

Only in democracies is dissent tolerated.

No personal attacks can ever overwhelm truth. Truth is not guided by one man or group, it is found through communities honestly testing their beliefs and using logic and reason to determine it.

Consensus is never possible, but the lack of consensus should not be feared. Respect for differing views on both sides should be presumed.

When science has all the empirical evidence, and creationism has none of it, it is surpassingly clear who has the legitimate, logical, reasonable claim to truth.

Geocentricity.com posts a 'dissenting view' concerning heliocentrism. The fact that they do doesn't make their view legitimate, or deserving of respect.

175

Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 16, 2009 6:16:06pm

re: #169 aussie_dave

I hate you because you don't believe what I do. I won't argue with you on the facts but I will label you as a nutjob/creationist/kuffar/racist/GW denier (tick whichever is applicable) to shut you up.

I will find ways to punish you because you don't agree with me. And when all the unbelief is purged then we will achieve Da- el- singularity

/sarc

Would you like another martyr cookie?

176

Alberta Oil Peon Mon, Feb 16, 2009 7:01:44pm

re: #168 aussie_dave

Yes I admit I am a global warming denier/skeptic/whatever the insult is.

On Evolution, still am not convinced on the leap from Natural selection to Evolution.

Do I really deserve "ad hominen" attacks because of that? (We think he believes in creationism, burn him, or even worse, ban him!)

Well, you've got the Evolution thing all bass-ackwards. Evolution is the observable fact that species have changed over time. Today's dinosaur is just one more link in the chain.

Natural Selection is Charles Darwin's theory to explain the mechanism that drives evolution.

177

Salamantis Mon, Feb 16, 2009 7:14:36pm

re: #175 Charles

Would you like another martyr cookie?

That sacrament is traditionally partaken accompanied with whine.

178

BLBfootballs Mon, Feb 16, 2009 7:16:44pm

Here’s the paper, if you really want to read it, with the sexy title: A Basal Sauropodomorph (Dinosauria: Saurischia) from the Ischigualasto Formation (Triassic, Carnian) and the Early Evolution of Sauropodomorpha.

Mmmm-hmmm. Sure get's me going...

re: #46 scottishbuzzsaw

"Clever girl."

Best scene ever!

(Though the book was far better than the movie, and Crichton's followup book The Lost World had some fantastic writing on scenarios and models of evolution and extinction. As usual he integrated it with ideas of chaos theory, highly complex systems, adaptiveness... etc.)

179

garycooper Mon, Feb 16, 2009 7:54:37pm

Here’s the paper, if you really want to read it, with the sexy title: A Basal Sauropodomorph (Dinosauria: Saurischia) from the Ischigualasto Formation (Triassic, Carnian) and the Early Evolution of Sauropodomorpha.

I wish I could quit you, Basal Sauropodomorph (Dinosauria: Saurischia) from the Ischigualasto Formation (Triassic, Carnian) and the Early Evolution of Sauropodomorpha.

Just finished watching the three hours of "Morphed," taped last week. That was a great little presentation. I learned several new facts, new to me at least, about the specific processes and conflicts that drive evolution. Thanks for the tip, Charles!

180

dry_heavz_4_alla Mon, Feb 16, 2009 7:54:41pm

Here’s the paper, if you really want to read it, with the sexy title: A Basal Sauropodomorph (Dinosauria: Saurischia) from the Ischigualasto Formation (Triassic, Carnian) and the Early Evolution of Sauropodomorpha.

I'm pretty sure this title was meant to be sung to the "Girl from Ipanema" tune.

181

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 8:22:51pm

182

[deleted] Mon, Feb 16, 2009 8:27:47pm

183

Mr Secul Mon, Feb 16, 2009 8:39:18pm

re: #40 Charles

It didn't say "mammals," it said "giant four-footed herbivores" -- for example, the brontosaurus.

Maybe he has reading comprehension problems or maybe he forgot a sarc tag.

184

Mr Secul Mon, Feb 16, 2009 9:20:12pm

re: #165 Basho

There is such a thing as irrational rationality:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Great link.

Maybe Charles can give each account a Galileo count. It shows the number of times a poster has mentioned Galileo without sarc escaping the word. It could just be a G with a number next to it.

Or maybe it could be a tag and readers could tag posts and the tags are applied to the poster.

We could have Galileo tags, Martyr tags, ?...

185

Adil Zeshan Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:44:18am

re: #168 aussie_dave

On Evolution, still am not convinced on the leap from Natural selection to Evolution.

Do I really deserve "ad hominen" attacks because of that? (We think he believes in creationism, burn him, or even worse, ban him!)

I am a shade perplexed as to how you might simultaneously accept the role of natural selection while rejecting evolution.

Evolution refers to changes in organic structure across time. Natural selection is a subset of evolution, and is the mechanism which gives rise to adaptation devices (everything that tempts creationists to see what they think is purposive and intentional design) by way of random mutation and selective retention.

You cannot cavalierly dismiss evolution and accept natural selection, and still pretend to know what you are talking about, all the while expecting reasonable people to take you all that seriously.

As for your deeper fascination to see ad hominem where it does not exist: if you think that what I say falls into that category, you are welcome to believe it. If so, I would also add that you don't know what ad hominem actually means either.

186

[deleted] Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:51:14am

187

Amer-I-Can Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:54:48am

LOL, I read the title quickly, and immediately thought of Hugo Chavez.

188

Basho Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:22:44am

re: #186 Anvil

lol
Great first post. You took the time to register yesterday just to get banned after two sentences.

189

Sloan Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:14:50pm