Major Scientific Society Boycotts Louisiana to Protest Creationism Bill

Science • Views: 4,306

As we noted last Saturday, the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology, a major scientific organization, is boycotting Louisiana for its 2011 convention, in protest of Governor Bobby Jindal’s promotion and signing of a stealth creationism bill. The New Orleans Times-Picayune has more on the story: National science group boycotting Louisiana in protest of Science Education Act.

BATON ROUGE — A national organization of scientists has informed Gov. Bobby Jindal it will not hold its annual convention in Louisiana as long as the recently adopted Science Education Act remains on the books.

The Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology told Jindal in a recent letter that its executive committee chose Salt Lake City for its 2011 convention over New Orleans “in large part” because of the legislation. Satterlie’s letter is posted on the group’s Web site under the headline: “No Thanks, New Orleans.”

“That’s too bad,” Jindal spokesman Kyle Plotkin said of the group’s decision. “New Orleans is a first-class city for a convention.” …

“It is the firm opinion of SICB’s leadership that this law undermines the integrity of science and science education in Louisiana,” Richard Satterlie, president of the society, wrote to Jindal.

According to Satterlie, New Orleans “has been a popular venue” for the the 2,300-member organization in the past. Satterlie told Jindal that the 2009 meeting brought more than 1,850 scientists and graduate students to Boston for five days last month.

A 5-day convention with 2000 attendees brings a huge amount of cash into a city like New Orleans. Bobby Jindal really screwed his own state.

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415 comments
1 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:16:33am

This will only strengthen the resolve of the Creationists they are on the "right" path. A lot will be awarding themselves martyr points for this perceived persecution.

2 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:17:48am

Money from a convention or creationist moonbattery?
Dumping the creationist moonbattery would be a good idea.

3 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:17:56am

re: #1 FurryOldGuyJeans

This will only strengthen the resolve of the Creationists they are on the "right" path. A lot will be awarding themselves martyr points for this perceived persecution.

Point well made. And no doubt, Jindal is sticking by his guns. It's really a few plus points for the creationists.

4 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:18:03am

Jindal seems to be driving reason outta the state.

5 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:18:51am

Have they found a way to blame Bush yet?

6 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:19:15am

re: #4 debutaunt

Jindal seems to be driving reason outta the state.

Between the leftist moonbats and the creationist moonbats, reason sure seems to be in short supply right now.

7 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:19:31am

I wish someone would please explain to these people that Holy Scripture is not a treatise in celestial mechanics nor quantum mechanics nor ....

8 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:19:32am

re: #4 debutaunt

Jindal seems to be driving reason outta the state.

Along with convention dollars. Sucks for New Orleans.

9 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:20:29am

wow...the scientists have decided UTAH is less religiously whacko than Louisiana

10 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:20:49am

re: #5 ggt

Have they found a way to blame Bush yet?

Wait. Kanye West will have a statment shortly about Bush and how he hates a certain group of people.
/

11 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:21:16am

I'm not sure they've done their homework if they think the citizens of Utah embrace evolution

12 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:21:25am

They will be welcomed in Salt Lake.

13 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:21:52am

re: #7 unreconstructed rebel
It would be like talking to a wall.These are folks who think "the flintstones" was a documentary.

14 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:23:04am
“It is the firm opinion of SICB’s leadership that this law undermines the integrity of science and science education in Louisiana,” Richard Satterlie, president of the society, wrote to Jindal.

In other words (my own words), the law is beginning to do what its supporters set out to do.

15 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:23:13am

Antisemitism, Creationism, Jihadic Terrorism. Religion perverted by venal people.

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:24:03am

re: #7 unreconstructed rebel

I wish someone would please explain to these people that Holy Scripture is not a treatise in celestial mechanics nor quantum mechanics nor ....

You mean it isn't the latest A+ manual?!? Oh DARN!

17 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:24:08am

re: #7 unreconstructed rebel

I wish someone would please explain to these people that Holy Scripture is not a treatise in celestial mechanics nor quantum mechanics nor ....

I've tried. I've tried for years. I have a flat spot on my forehead from the number of times I've banged my head into a brick wall after telling them over and over again with a shitload of evidence.

18 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:24:11am

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Between the leftist moonbats and the creationist moonbats, reason sure seems to be in short supply right now.

Current conditions in the country, it seems to me, are driving the social conservatives to the forefront, they are rallying around the thought that it is our years of "godless" politics that has brought us to this point.

And they are full blown and hell bent to take refuge in their theocratic bastion.

The Republican Party is damn close to self-destructing. At a time when they should be examining the purely political reasons for their current situation, the only thing they are examining is the broken policies, and embracing them again.

Nice know ya, GOP.

19 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:24:25am

re: #8 Creeping Eruption

Along with convention dollars. Sucks for New Orleans.

It's a pretty nice convention center, too. Done in by their own hand, sucks to be them.

20 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:25:01am

re: #14 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In other news today,the lou.university of medicine is re-examining bloodletting,and the balanceing of the four bodily humours....

21 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:26:15am

re: #20 Boondock St. Bender

In other news today,the lou.university of medicine is re-examining bloodletting,and the balanceing of the four bodily humours....

A course of leeches. It's good for what ails 'ya.

22 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:26:27am

Hit them with dissent that is meaningful and really counts...in their pocket book!
New Orleans cannot afford this boycott and perhaps the NO city council will have a meaningful chat with the good Gov. Jindal.

23 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:26:37am

Why worry so much about the Islamic Caliphate when we have an equally odious Theocracy waiting in the wings, jockeying for ascendancy.

24 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:27:24am

re: #14 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In other words (my own words), the law is beginning to do what its supporters set out to do.

Indeed. Perhaps the added publicity of the boycott will raise awareness of what Jindal did, and what other states are trying to do. And perhaps reason will prevail.

25 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:28:15am

What would SpaceJesus do?

26 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:28:20am

re: #11 Boolz

I'm not sure they've done their homework if they think the citizens of Utah embrace evolution

I know many do not, but they aren't for legislating it out of the classrooms either.
From what I am aware.

27 Bumr50  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:28:26am

re: #24 scottishbuzzsaw

One can only hope. D'oh!

28 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:28:41am

re: #11 Boolz

I'm not sure they've done their homework if they think the citizens of Utah embrace evolution

The question is not personal belief. It's what is law and what is taught in the classroom. The governor of Utah, Jon Huntsman just shot down a similar bill in Utah.

Quote from the Deseret News from a member of the state board of education:

"I personally fervently . . . believe in intelligent design. (But) I believe it needs to be taught in the home and perhaps, religious institutions," board member Bill Colbert said. "It's a personal issue. Even if we try to teach it in a classroom, (I don't think teachers) can do justice to various beliefs that are out there in our communities."

When my parents wanted me to be taught religion, they did it at home or sent me to church or seminary. (Seminary for LDS kids is for high-schoolers.)

29 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:29:16am

re: #25 Jimmah

What would SpaceJesus do?

/Here I was having a good time and you had to bring up that turd.

30 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:29:42am

Obama officials meet U.S. Jews to explain Durban II policy

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I find this personally insulting. This is not just a "Jewish" issue, and once again displays the gross inexperience of the children in charge.

31 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:29:50am

When is the first melt-down due?

32 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:29:59am

re: #24 scottishbuzzsaw

Indeed. Perhaps the added publicity of the boycott will raise awareness of what Jindal did, and what other states are trying to do. And perhaps reason will prevail.

That is some mighty wishful thinking when we have a media that uses the religious fringe as what mainstream conservatism is all about. Too many people can't or refuse to connect the dots.

33 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:29:59am

re: #12 EmmmieG

They will be welcomed in Salt Lake.

I'm sure they'll be happy to take their money...hope they take it and make marble busts of the Ten Commandments for every school and court house in the state

34 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:30:04am

And, who is roberth?

35 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:30:11am

re: #25 Jimmah

What would SpaceJesus do?

Whatever he does, he will ... keep it well in hand.

36 Bumr50  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:30:12am

Way OT - and many apologies- but in light of this new Sanford fraud thing, doesn't it seem awfully suspicious that all of these seedy business deals are being outed NOW.
It's almost as if there are those who would have us HATE wealth...

37 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:30:38am

re: #23 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why worry so much about the Islamic Caliphate when we have an equally odious Theocracy waiting in the wings, jockeying for ascendancy.

I believe this is people with this sentiment that (in a large part) elected our POTUS.

38 Bumr50  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:30:47am

re: #28 EmmmieG

I was sort of an LSD kid...oh. That's different.

39 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:31:06am

Does anyone have an estimate of how much money a typical conventioneer spends?

40 vxbush  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:31:22am

re: #34 MandyManners

And, who is roberth?

Somewone with a lispth?

41 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:31:47am

re: #39 MandyManners

Does anyone have an estimate of how much money a typical conventioneer spends?

Wow. Bone-headed question.

42 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:32:06am

re: #40 vxbush

Somewone with a lispth?

*snort* LOL!

43 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:32:07am

re: #34 MandyManners

And, who is roberth?

Soon to be toast.

44 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:32:19am

People complain (rightly) about moderate Muslim refusing to speak up about the perverters of their religion, yet those who speak up about the perversion of Christianity for political purposes get soundly condemned.

45 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:32:32am

re: #31 MandyManners

When is the first melt-down due?

I'd give it about 150 comments.

46 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:32:36am

re: #25 Jimmah

What would SpaceJesus do?

I don't give a shit!

47 Bumr50  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:32:55am

re: #40 vxbush

Juthtith John Roberth?

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:18am

re: #36 Bumr50


"It's almost as if thereThere are are those who would have us HATE wealth that they don't control."


FTFY

49 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:19am

re: #39 MandyManners

Does anyone have an estimate of how much money a typical conventioneer spends?

Last convention I attended at that venue (over a decade ago) was $1500 to get in the door. That number could be skewed as it was a Cisco event, and those are expensive. Still, even if you're talking 2/3rd that amount, and when you're talking several thousand people, that's a lot of cash...

50 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:21am

re: #39 MandyManners

Does anyone have an estimate of how much money a typical conventioneer spends?

Well, there's what he's willing to put on his expense report, and then there's what he's not.

51 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:29am
52 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:33am

re: #43 Honorary Yooper

Soon to be toast.

I'm gonna' search to see if he's ever posted.

53 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:41am

re: #38 Bumr50

I was sort of an LSD kid...oh. That's different.

I was also on LSD as a kid. Kind of fun with the Lake on one side, and the city on the other. Oh, wait, that not what you meant.

54 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:33:55am

re: #45 Honorary Yooper

I'd give it about 150 comments.

That soon?

55 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:00am

re: #44 FurryOldGuyJeans
One of the best comments i have read!consider yourself up-dinged!

56 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:02am

re: #45 Honorary Yooper

I'd give it about 150 comments.

Anybody wnat to start an officethread pool?

57 vxbush  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:04am

re: #47 Bumr50

Juthtith John Roberth?

I thuppose we'll never know.

58 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:16am

re: #50 unreconstructed rebel

Well, there's what he's willing to put on his expense report, and then there's what he's not.

How about things that can be taxed?

59 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:19am

I think SpaceJesus would do the right thing, and shun Louisiana.

60 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:39am

re: #23 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why worry so much about the Islamic Caliphate when we have an equally odious Theocracy waiting in the wings, jockeying for ascendancy.

The point is not that Jindal's approach is "equally" odious; but that it is odious enough. It is also, for us on the Gulf Coast, our problem.

61 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:34:49am

re: #38 Bumr50

I was sort of an LSD kid...oh. That's different.

some would say they're both religious experiences

62 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:35:04am

Boycotts like this hurt and work. I forget exactly what State it was, I think South Carolina maybe and the confederate flag flying at the State house. That came down pretty fast after a boycott.

63 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:35:16am

re: #37 ggt

I am concerned about both. To ignore the domestic threat while concentrating solely on the foreign is to allow the American Theocracy to happen.

64 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:35:17am
"That's too bad," Jindal spokesman Kyle Plotkin said of the group's decision. "New Orleans is a first-class city for a convention."

Not any more it ain't. Not for science conventions.

65 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:35:45am
66 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:35:45am

re: #25 Jimmah

What would SpaceJesus do?

Get his ass dinged down majorly.

67 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:01am

re: #52 MandyManners

I'm gonna' search to see if he's ever posted.

No luck.

68 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:14am
69 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:30am

re: #63 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am concerned about both. To ignore the domestic threat while concentrating solely on the foreign is to allow the American Theocracy to happen.

exactly!

The theocrats want people to be in a highly emotional, confused and defensive state of mind. Easier to control then that way.

70 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:31am

re: #9 Boolz

Because the Governor of Utah is opposed to ID in the classrooms.

71 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:34am

re: #67 MandyManners

No luck.

Are you talking to yourself again? :)

72 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:37am

Report: Flatulent fuehrer had foul manners
Documents emerging in Britain feature Nazi official who claimed Hitler was 'shockingly' uncouth

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Like we didn't know?

73 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:46am

re: #60 Zimriel

The point is not that Jindal's approach is "equally" odious; but that it is odious enough. It is also, for us on the Gulf Coast, our problem.

The results, theocracy, is equally odious.

74 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:47am

re: #49 MrSilverDragon

Last convention I attended at that venue (over a decade ago) was $1500 to get in the door. That number could be skewed as it was a Cisco event, and those are expensive. Still, even if you're talking 2/3rd that amount, and when you're talking several thousand people, that's a lot of cash...

Was that money to the organization or, for things like hotels, rentals, food, transportation, booze, et cet.?

75 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:36:50am

re: #67 MandyManners

No luck.

What a brave man.

76 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:23am

re: #58 MandyManners

How about things that can be taxed?

There are three authorities whose conerns he has to balance:
1. the IRS
2. his employer
3. mama

77 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:43am

re: #67 MandyManners

No luck.

I've never seen a post from "roberth" ever. I think he's a Down Ding Gnome.

78 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:49am

re: #56 unreconstructed rebel

Anybody wnat to start an officethread dead pool?

79 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:49am

This is not new--we saw this over the weekend.

This is addressed to those who feel strongly in favor of the ID/Creationist point of view. I am not a scientist and do no pretend to be. I know only what was taught to 30 years ago in high school. Evolution does not affect my daily existence.

However, I have studied the debate on the issue for a few years. I can say with some candor that I strongly believe you are fighting the wrong battle--but the right war. The war is against creeping socialism/nihilism which is being promulgated in the public schools. The battle you have decided to fight, though, is turning into a quagmire where even if you win, you seem to lose, i.e.; you win a legal battle and get legislation passed at the cost of your credibility.

The battle which needs to be fought is not on the field of science, but American history. There is a movement afoot to minimize the accomplishments of the founders. I have never been one to lionize them (save Washington) but they are slowly being demonized because they had been slave holders. This 'blot' on their lives, some argue, also sullies all of their other accomplishments, including the Constitution.

If we are to argue that the Constitution is not a "living" document, susceptible to the vagaries of fashion and social expediency, then we need to look to the intent of the framers. However, if the framers are all cast as villainous slaver owners whose reasons for drafting the documents in the first place were to preserve their odious existence, then why should we care what they thought. If that happens, then the very thing which has held this country together for two centuries could then be twisted and distorted beyond recognition. In that event, your argument over Darwin v. Design will be moot.

I would invite you to look at the posts Charles lists on this site. Examine how your efforts are being perceived by others in your own party. If you want to win on this point, you must shift the axis of your attack and not cling to what may be a losing battle. Otherwise, you may not have the necessary credibility to fight the long war.

Sincerely

80 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:50am

re: #31 MandyManners

When is the first melt-down due?

Didn't we get most of them yesterday? It was freakin' Massacre Monday around here yesterday.

81 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:51am

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Are you talking to yourself again? :)

The Manners-Socratic-Method.

82 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:37:51am

re: #65 Iron Fist

So where do you put hookers on your expense report? They're a little too pricey to put down as "miscellaneous"...

:-)

A punto.

83 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:38:03am

re: #62 Nevergiveup

Boycotts like this hurt and work. I forget exactly what State it was, I think South Carolina maybe and the confederate flag flying at the State house. That came down pretty fast after a boycott.

A 5-day convention with 2000 attendees brings a huge amount of cash into a city like New Orleans. Bobby Jindal really screwed his own state.

84 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:38:10am

re: #65 Iron Fist

"entertainment"?

85 psawyer  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:38:31am

I'm sure Salt Lake City is more fun than New Orleans.

86 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:12am

re: #83 Charles

A 5-day convention with 2000 attendees brings a huge amount of cash into a city like New Orleans. Bobby Jindal really screwed his own state.

Yup.

87 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:18am
88 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:18am

re: #74 MandyManners

Was that money to the organization or, for things like hotels, rentals, food, transportation, booze, et cet.?

That was merely to enter the convention itself. As for the additional revenue, I would say it was an average of $350 a night for all the other ammenities. Granted, I stayed in one of the nicer hotels, and I didn't drink the cheap stuff while I was there, and damn if I'm doing fast food too!

89 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:35am

re: #72 Nevergiveup

oh yeah,that story is old hat.One of the reasons he had quack doctors.His vegatarian diet left der feurer' sounding like he had a 2-stroke motor running in his pants....

90 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:52am

re: #80 CyanSnowHawk

Didn't we get most of them yesterday? It was freakin' Massacre Monday around here yesterday.

We got lots of new hatchlings. I'm sure a few of them will have meltdowns. Always do.

91 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:12am

some re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Are you talking to yourself again? :)

I couldn't find roberth using the search function.

92 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:12am

re: #85 psawyer

I'm sure Salt Lake City is more fun than New Orleans.

I imagine that the primary purpose of the convention is for discussing science, not a vacation.

93 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:22am

The SBIC punished a governor who undermined science in his state, and rewarded a governor who's take a firm stance against the same movement jindal sold out to.

94 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:33am
95 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:52am

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

I imagine that the primary purpose of the convention is for discussing science, not a vacation.

Been to many conventions?

96 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:58am

re: #83 Charles

A 5-day convention with 2000 attendees brings a huge amount of cash into a city like New Orleans. Bobby Jindal really screwed his own state.

His main constituents--he is from Kenner, a suburb of New Orleans.

97 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:41:13am

re: #79 calcajun

Why not BOTH?

98 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:41:43am

re: #89 Boondock St. Bender

oh yeah,that story is old hat.One of the reasons he had quack doctors.His vegatarian diet left der feurer' sounding like he had a 2-stroke motor running in his pants....

Tell me we're not actually discussing "two strokes in Hitler's pants"?

99 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:42:00am

re: #55 Boondock St. Bender

One of the best comments i have read!consider yourself up-dinged!

I'm a bit surprised the sentiment hasn't been expressed before.

100 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:42:14am

re: #85 psawyer

I'm sure Salt Lake City is more fun than New Orleans.

They stole our basketball team, the bastards. Didn't even bother to change the name. Yeah, when I think of Utah, I think of jazz--my ass.

101 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:42:35am

re: #98 eschew_obfuscation

Tell me we're not actually discussing "two strokes in Hitler's pants"?

Does that immediately invoke Goodwin's Law?

102 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:42:50am

re: #30 Nevergiveup

Obama officials meet U.S. Jews to explain Durban II policy

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I find this personally insulting. This is not just a "Jewish" issue, and once again displays the gross inexperience of the children in charge.

Note the meetings were off the record.
"You helped elect Obama, so we don't need you any more. You jew-boys keep your mouths shut or we'll let Iran nuke Israel"

And Ha'aretz isn't so great either. From the article:

European Union (EU) countries including Britain, Denmark and the Netherlands are under pressure from Jewish lobbies to follow suit. But they have stayed engaged while struggling to tone down a final UN text to be issued by the conference, diplomats say.


(My emphasis)
Tone down the text? From what? From "Back to the ovens" to "We deplore Israel blah blah blah"?

103 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:42:54am

re: #73 FurryOldGuyJeans

The results, theocracy, is equally odious.

I disagree. I say there is a difference between theocracies, which stem from a fundamental difference between religions. Christianity at its worst hasn't come up with anything like the Taliban.

I'd also say that Shi'ism at its worst couldn't compare with the Taliban.

To take the worst Christian theocracies I can think of, Calvin's Geneva, old Massachusetts, or maybe Justinian's Constantinople: I'd still rather live in one of them, or in 1981 Iran, than in the Utopia which Pakistan has just installed in its border provinces.

104 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:43:12am

re: #70 Sharmuta

Because the Governor of Utah is opposed to ID in the classrooms.

It's the types of 'Buttars' that can do the damage. He is actually a really good guy, but he has just waded into the 'D.I.' / 'I.D.' thing and hasn't done enough research yet on it to understand it's 'source', when someone does that, they tend to steer clear of the 'D.I.' / 'I.D.' thing.

105 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:43:17am

re: #98 eschew_obfuscation
Actually there were stories that that was all it took.....but lets not go there....

106 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:43:24am
107 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:43:24am

re: #88 MrSilverDragon

That was merely to enter the convention itself. As for the additional revenue, I would say it was an average of $350 a night for all the other ammenities. Granted, I stayed in one of the nicer hotels, and I didn't drink the cheap stuff while I was there, and damn if I'm doing fast food too!

One person for one night. I wonder how much tax revenue was generated--not just sales tax but, the income tax for the state and local payroll tax.

108 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:43:25am

re: #85 psawyer

I'm sure Salt Lake City is more fun than New Orleans.

Define...'fun'?

/

109 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:09am

re: #100 calcajun

Then you guys stole the hornets....

110 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:20am

re: #101 Honorary Yooper

Does that immediately invoke Goodwin's Law?

I'm sure it does. Gee, maybe there's a corollary that applies any time you mention Hitler and Flatulence in the same post?

111 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:22am

re: #100 calcajun

They stole our basketball team, the bastards. Didn't even bother to change the name. Yeah, when I think of Utah, I think of jazz--my ass.

I would love it if they stole your football team also.

Utah Saints. That would rule.

112 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:33am

re: #104 Oh no...Sand People!

It's the types of 'Buttars' that can do the damage. He is actually a really good guy, but he has just waded into the 'D.I.' / 'I.D.' thing and hasn't done enough research yet on it to understand it's 'source', when someone does that, they tend to steer clear of the 'D.I.' / 'I.D.' thing.

I'm confused- who are you talking about?

113 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:35am

re: #44 FurryOldGuyJeans

People complain (rightly) about moderate Muslim refusing to speak up about the perverters of their religion, yet those who speak up about the perversion of Christianity for political purposes get soundly condemned.

114 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:37am

re: #97 MandyManners

Why not BOTH?

Because, this is a political fight. In politics, perception is reality. If the ID people--well-intentioned as they may be--are perceived as throw backs to the middle ages, then that will color all of their efforts. If the attack is on two fronts, then if they are ill-perceived on one front, they'll be seen the same way on all other fronts.

115 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:39am

Pamela sides with Coulter this morning. Unfortunately her defense doesn't have any substance to it.

116 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:44am

re: #70 Sharmuta

Because the Governor of Utah is opposed to ID in the classrooms.

well, I guess I won't vote for him then...oh wait, I CAN'T vote for him cause he's in a different state...can't vote for or against Jindal either. So I guess the proper thing to do is not worry so much about what goes on in OTHER PEOPLES STATES, and concentrate more about what goes on in my own. I know, I know...weird concept

117 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:44:58am

I'm sure this is nothing...

Explosives haul missing in Gaza

A large stockpile of unexploded weapons has disappeared in Gaza, before United Nations experts were able to dispose of it safely, the BBC has learned.

The explosives, including aircraft bombs and white phosphorus shells, were fired by the Israeli military during its recent offensive in the Gaza Strip.

UN officials said they were urgently trying to establish where the arms had gone and have called for their return.

Israel has accused Hamas of taking the stockpile, which was under Hamas guard.

Look for a rash of "work related accidents" in Gaza

118 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:45:08am

re: #68 buzzsawmonkey

Sure it is; think of all the throwbacks available for study.

That would it a great location for a paleo-anthropological field trip, not a scientific convention.

119 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:45:20am

re: #96 calcajun

His main constituents--he is from Kenner, a suburb of New Orleans.

His constituents are every single resident of the State of Louisiana.

120 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:45:20am

re: #109 Boondock St. Bender

Then you guys stole the hornets....

Well, there is balance to the universe, at least.

121 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:45:29am

re: #91 MandyManners

I couldn't find roberth using the search function.

Don't bother. He's never posted any comments I can find either. He's a Down Ding Gnome. A strange species, an evolutionary offshoot of the troll, but never comes out in the daylight, unlike the troll. There is also suspicion that the Down Ding Gnome is related to the Sock Puppet.

122 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:45:47am

re: #112 Sharmuta

I'm confused- who are you talking about?

In the article you linked about John Huntsman. There is a gentlemen named 'Buttars' who has been vocal about 'I.D.' being taught in public schools.

123 x-wing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:46:39am

I read this article yesterday and it fis my view on religion and science. It's a very good read and I wish the ID'ers would give it a try.

"How To Honor Religion and Science"

[Link: blogs.usatoday.com...]

124 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:46:50am

re: #111 Oh no...Sand People!

well...utah latter day saints....

125 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:46:56am

re: #106 Iron Fist

Um, no. The assertions that America is almost a fundamentalist theocracy are as off base, and idiotic, as if someone was asserting that now with BHO in office we are a Racist nation espousing the Black Values System and the destruction of the White Middle Class.

You need to do some real research on what a real theocracy is all about. I'd suggest starting with Iran, not Indiana.

It starts somewhere, IF.

126 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:47:04am
127 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:47:09am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Pamela sides with Coulter this morning. Unfortunately her defense doesn't have any substance to it.

Color me shocked.
/

128 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:47:13am

re: #116 Boolz

well, I guess I won't vote for him then...oh wait, I CAN'T vote for him cause he's in a different state...can't vote for or against Jindal either. So I guess the proper thing to do is not worry so much about what goes on in OTHER PEOPLES STATES, and concentrate more about what goes on in my own. I know, I know...weird concept

What goes on in "other peoples' states" may very well happen in our own sooner rather than later. Especially when we're dealing with people as fanatical about their cause as the D.I. (and since I personally believe in creation, I KNOW how fanatical some of these people can be!), it will get around, and quickly.

129 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:47:44am

re: #124 Boondock St. Bender

well...utah latter day saints....

Heh.

130 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:47:48am

re: #116 Boolz

Yes- you should pay attention to what's going on in your state, but that doesn't mean you can't read news about what's going on elsewhere and have an opinion on it.

131 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:48:07am

re: #114 calcajun

Because, this is a political fight. In politics, perception is reality. If the ID people--well-intentioned as they may be--are perceived as throw backs to the middle ages, then that will color all of their efforts. If the attack is on two fronts, then if they are ill-perceived on one front, they'll be seen the same way on all other fronts.

Clarify, please?

132 opnion  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:48:12am

I Must be missing something. If I was boycotting New Orleans over the creationism Bill, If you locked me in a room for a week , I would not come up with Salt Lake City as an alternative.
I know that Jindal snuck through a bill, still the fall back to Salt Lake seems odd.

133 badger1970  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:48:16am

Creationists deny science and evolutionists cry out that everything happens by chance; both hold onto their views like a mother protecting her child.

In the way of these two sides are the more rational people who love science, believe that dinosaurs did exist, the universe is billions of years in the making and humans evolved from the apes who decided that eating meat was the way to go (the veggie apes turned into democrats). In school, teach the strict evolutionary theory. The church is there to teach the creationist side to evolution; God the Creator does exist.

For a secular group like the SICB to pull out of a conference because of a disagreement is valid, but petty. That hasn't stop others from be hypocritical (pelosi in Syria and now Vatican City).

134 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:48:25am

re: #107 MandyManners

One person for one night. I wonder how much tax revenue was generated--not just sales tax but, the income tax for the state and local payroll tax.

Also as another side note, this was over a decade ago, so I can imagine those numbers are seriously inflated from back then.

135 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:48:25am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Pamela sides with Coulter this morning. Unfortunately her defense doesn't have any substance to it.

Now, there's a fucking shocker.

136 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:48:43am

re: #122 Oh no...Sand People!

Okay- been a few days since I first read that story, but I saved the link because I thought it might come in handy, and so it has.

137 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:00am

re: #127 Honorary Yooper

I was hoping she'd wade in deep and defend Coulter's racism but she just puts up a generic defense. Nobody else on the right even wants to touch the Coulter story.

138 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:04am

re: #117 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm sure this is nothing...

Explosives haul missing in Gaza

A large stockpile of unexploded weapons has disappeared in Gaza, before United Nations experts were able to dispose of it safely, the BBC has learned.

The explosives, including aircraft bombs and white phosphorus shells, were fired by the Israeli military during its recent offensive in the Gaza Strip.

UN officials said they were urgently trying to establish where the arms had gone and have called for their return.

Israel has accused Hamas of taking the stockpile, which was under Hamas guard.


Don't worry; Hamas will return them eventually, once they figure out why they didn't explode.

As you said, look for an increase in work accidents. Hamas will, of course, blame Israel.
Look for a rash of "work related accidents" in Gaza

139 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:13am

re: #116 Boolz

well, I guess I won't vote for him then...oh wait, I CAN'T vote for him cause he's in a different state...can't vote for or against Jindal either. So I guess the proper thing to do is not worry so much about what goes on in OTHER PEOPLES STATES, and concentrate more about what goes on in my own. I know, I know...weird concept

You don't get the point that an educated work force is essential for the ENTIRE nation, do you?

140 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:19am

re: #103 Zimriel

I disagree. I say there is a difference between theocracies, which stem from a fundamental difference between religions. Christianity at its worst hasn't come up with anything like the Taliban.

I'd also say that Shi'ism at its worst couldn't compare with the Taliban.

To take the worst Christian theocracies I can think of, Calvin's Geneva, old Massachusetts, or maybe Justinian's Constantinople: I'd still rather live in one of them, or in 1981 Iran, than in the Utopia which Pakistan has just installed in its border provinces.

It is not a zero-sum game. Theocracy is not an option.

141 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:27am

re: #128 thedopefishlives

True, what goes on in other states may one day infect your own state. If it goes to the General Assembly in Illinois, it'll be called Intelligent Crime instead of Intelligent Design.

142 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:39am

re: #133 badger1970

... evolutionists cry out that everything happens by chance...

That is so wrong on so many levels.

143 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:49:55am

re: #128 thedopefishlives

What goes on in "other peoples' states" may very well happen in our own sooner rather than later. Especially when we're dealing with people as fanatical about their cause as the D.I. (and since I personally believe in creation, I KNOW how fanatical some of these people can be!), it will get around, and quickly.

Not disagreeing with you.

How many times has a law been argued under the heading of "Well, X other states have passed similar laws/rulings."? If you disagree with something, argue against it every chance you get, dont wait for it to show up on your door step.

144 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:50:30am

re: #128 thedopefishlives

in which case, then you throw your two cents in

145 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:50:45am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Pamela sides with Coulter this morning. Unfortunately her defense doesn't have any substance to it.

Anything to not agree with Charles. Even if it meant saying the sky isn't blue.

146 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:50:48am

re: #133 badger1970

Creationists deny science and evolutionists cry out that everything happens by chance; both hold onto their views like a mother protecting her child.

In the way of these two sides are the more rational people who love science, believe that dinosaurs did exist, the universe is billions of years in the making and humans evolved from the apes who decided that eating meat was the way to go (the veggie apes turned into democrats). In school, teach the strict evolutionary theory. The church is there to teach the creationist side to evolution; God the Creator does exist.

For a secular group like the SICB to pull out of a conference because of a disagreement is valid, but petty. That hasn't stop others from be hypocritical (pelosi in Syria and now Vatican City).

Uhhhhhhhhhhh...okay.

147 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:51:08am

re: #131 MandyManners

What specifically? I'm not sure what it is you want clarified?

148 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:51:18am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Pamela sides with Coulter this morning. Unfortunately her defense doesn't have any substance to it.

I'm sure she gave the matter great care and attention before coming to that conclusion and isn't just taking that position because it is contra-Charles.

//

149 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:51:22am

re: #134 MrSilverDragon

Also as another side note, this was over a decade ago, so I can imagine those numbers are seriously inflated from back then.

Maybe $600.00/night?

150 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:51:41am

re: #145 Sharmuta

Anything to not agree with Charles. Even if it meant saying the sky isn't blue.

Charles, I see a good post in the future about how the sky is blue.
/Just wanna see her do it.

151 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:52:11am

re: #143 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not disagreeing with you.

How many times has a law been argued under the heading of "Well, X other states have passed similar laws/rulings."? If you disagree with something, argue against it every chance you get, dont wait for it to show up on your door step.

DITTO!

152 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:52:14am

re: #144 Boolz

in which case, then you throw your two cents in

Oh fuck off. I guess you don't even care what happens on your own street, as long as it doesn't directly effect you?

Then if this conversation is such a waste of time, leave and let us get on with our debate.

153 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:52:16am

re: #149 MandyManners

Maybe $600.00/night?

That's a pretty safe bet, I'd say.

154 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:52:28am
155 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:52:35am
156 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:10am

re: #147 calcajun

What specifically? I'm not sure what it is you want clarified?

If the attack is on two fronts, then if they are ill-perceived on one front, they'll be seen the same way on all other fronts.

157 cronus  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:15am
“That’s too bad,” Jindal spokesman Kyle Plotkin said of the group’s decision. “New Orleans is a first-class city for a convention.” ...

No Kyle, the real tragedy for you will be when your boss inevitably tries to develop a national political profile that plays against type. He's already done more to reinforce the suspicions about his beliefs and approach to government than an unflattering national media ever could.

158 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:24am

re: #116 Boolz

well, I guess I won't vote for him then...oh wait, I CAN'T vote for him cause he's in a different state...can't vote for or against Jindal either. So I guess the proper thing to do is not worry so much about what goes on in OTHER PEOPLES STATES, and concentrate more about what goes on in my own. I know, I know...weird concept

What a foolish statement.

159 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:27am

OT - maybe already posted,but...

Student sues L.A. City College district over gay-marriage speech

Student Jonathan Lopez says his professor called him a "fascist bastard" and refused to let him finish his speech against same-sex marriage during a public speaking class last November, weeks after California voters approved the ban on such unions.

When Lopez tried to find out his mark for the speech, the professor, John Matteson, allegedly told him to "ask God what your grade is," the suit says.

Beautiful.

160 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:30am

re: #103 Zimriel

ANY Theocracy is antithetical to America and her Constitutional Ideals. Suppression of freedom is bad no matter who is at the controls. If you want an idea of what a "good" theocracy would do to millions who don't believe the same as the approved thought just look at the Facebook/Robert Spenser thread.

You conveniently ignored the Spanish Inquisition. You might want to actually study some more history before you start trying to sound authoritarian here.

161 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:36am

re: #9 Boolz

wow...the scientists have decided UTAH is less religiously whacko than Louisiana

Utah is not wacko. I attended college at Brigham Young University in Utah. The Board of directors are the 12 apostles of the LDS Church and the President. It is a church school subsidized with church funds.

I learned evolution in biology and other science classes and studied religion in religion class. They want to maintain accredidation and would not intermingle the two.

162 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:39am

re: #144 Boolz

Why on earth would I want to wait until I can only chime in after the fact, when I can argue to prevent it from happening right now?

163 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:43am

re: #132 opnion

I Must be missing something. If I was boycotting New Orleans over the creationism Bill, If you locked me in a room for a week , I would not come up with Salt Lake City as an alternative.
I know that Jindal snuck through a bill, still the fall back to Salt Lake seems odd.

Yeah. Are they implying that they're not hostile to religion in the public square (as long as it stays out of school)? Are they trying to put shame into Christians by contrasting them with more sensible (on this issue) Mormons?

The whole thing feels like a f$ck-you to Jindal's constituency...

164 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:46am

in the THANK GOD category of news,

Israel engaged in covert war inside Iran

"Israel has launched a covert war against Iran as an alternative to direct military strikes against Tehran's nuclear programme," Britain's Daily Telegraph said on Tuesday. "It is using hitmen, sabotage, front companies and double agents to disrupt the regime's illicit weapons project, the experts say."

Quoting intelligence experts and an unnamed former CIA agent, the newspaper said Israel's "decapitation" strategy had targeted members of Iran's atomic programme, hoping to set back the country's nuclear ambitions without resorting to war.

165 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:53:59am

re: #148 Bloodnok

Unfortunately,if you look at pamalas' army it would look alot like Hedley LaMarrs from the ending of blazing saddles.

166 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:54:09am

re: #144 Boolz

in which case, then you throw your two cents in

Isolationism over national matters?

167 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:54:42am

re: #122 Oh no...Sand People!

In the article you linked about John Huntsman. There is a gentlemen named 'Buttars' who has been vocal about 'I.D.' being taught in public schools.

He's been made a joke throughout the state...

168 Annar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:54:49am

I hope other scientific groups (Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry, Engineers etc.) cancel any plans they might have for meetings in Louisiana until this religious decree is nullified.

169 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:55:22am

re: #155 Iron Fist

We would stand against that too.

170 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:55:56am

re: #155 Iron Fist

Then we are as equally in danger of America becoming an officially Atheist Nation like the former Soviet Union. There are plenty of people who would criminalize the open expression of faith in the United States today. And I have to say, we see some of that mindset here at times.

No, we are not. Religion was suppressed in the USSR. It was not until German tanks were in sight of the Kremlin that Stalin allowed the churches to reopen.

Here, we just cannot promote one religion over another. Everyone can freely worship as they see fit--within bounds (no animal/human sacrifice, etc.)

171 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:56:03am
172 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:56:19am

Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology wants to kick God out of the classroom!

See they are bashing Christian's in science!

////////////////////////////////

173 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:57:09am

re: #153 MrSilverDragon

That's a pretty safe bet, I'd say.

Three nights = $1,800.00. No, let's round it to $2,000.00. Now, say there are 2,300 people as is the case in the present matter.

$460,000.00.

174 IngisKahn  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:57:16am

re: #121 Honorary Yooper

Don't bother. He's never posted any comments I can find either. He's a Down Ding Gnome. A strange species, an evolutionary offshoot of the troll, but never comes out in the daylight, unlike the troll. There is also suspicion that the Down Ding Gnome is related to the Sock Puppet.

You can always type in a user name: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Search seems to be missing a lot.

175 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:57:40am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Pamela sides with Coulter this morning. Unfortunately her defense doesn't have any substance to it.

Of course she does. Pamela Geller has never met a white supremacist she couldn't rationalize away.

176 Rancher  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:57:45am

Good for them. Hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook. I only wish we would boycott Durban II. Somewhat OT but The Corner's Anne Bayefsky has a good piece on Obama Naïveté at the U.N.

It will be painful to watch the administration forced to enroll in U.N. 101. At Durban I, the European Union did a numbers count and recognized that Western democracies were bound for the back of the bus. So they proceeded to permit condemnation of racist Israel in exchange for omitting any inconvenient reference to financial compensation for slavery (and adding a minor sop to the existence of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism). No matter that murdering Jews in Israel in the here and now — justified as an alleged struggle against racism — is a modern form of anti-Semitism.

Not only will Obama be buffeted by EU members attempting to save themselves and their pocketbooks, the developing world will be overjoyed at the prospect of debilitating Gulliver. The fact that he is prepared to lie down of his own volition and hand them the strings, just makes the occasion merrier. Obama will also come to know the overarching theme of all U.N. meetings, namely, that saving the credibility of the institution itself is the number one priority. This means that having mounted a global conference, any outcome or deal is better than nothing. Such a mindset leaves the extremists in the driver’s seat. They will eat multilateralists-in-need-of-a-warm-group-hug for breakfast.
177 opnion  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:57:53am

re: #163 Zimriel

Yeah. Are they implying that they're not hostile to religion in the public square (as long as it stays out of school)? Are they trying to put shame into Christians by contrasting them with more sensible (on this issue) Mormons?

The whole thing feels like a f$ck-you to Jindal's constituency...

I just think that Salt Lake as a fallback in this case is odd.

178 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:58:37am

re: #173 MandyManners

Three nights = $1,800.00. No, let's round it to $2,000.00. Now, say there are 2,300 people as is the case in the present matter.

$460,000.00.

So, a cool half mil in the toilet because some dope decided to interject religion where it doesn't belong.

That's hitting you where it hurts, especially with the economy on its current downward spiral.

179 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:58:42am

re: #174 IngisKahn

You can always type in a user name: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Search seems to be missing a lot.

No recent comments though.

180 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:58:54am

I hate when the DI gets it's way and these conversations start talking about religion, because it's not what this is about.

This is about non-science being taught to the children instead of real science. Teaching them a methodical, scientific way of learning- a thought process that with the rise of collectivist, leftist thinking, we could really stand to teach the kids. If we stand any chance of correcting critical thinking skills- it is in science we can look for help. We need to improve science, not by adding ID, but by defending the empirical data and the process which brought it about.

181 Rancher  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:58:55am

re: #137 Killgore Trout

I was hoping she'd wade in deep and defend Coulter's racism but she just puts up a generic defense. Nobody else on the right even wants to touch the Coulter story.

What Coulter story?

182 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:59:04am

re: #164 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

in the THANK GOD category of news,

Israel engaged in covert war inside Iran

Never mind that once again, the Fourth Estate is acting as the Fifth Column. It is stories like this that will lead to open war, regardless of the truth of them.

183 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:59:13am

re: #171 buzzsawmonkey

Holy shamoly.

I saw the lawyer on TV, and gay- marriage was not mentioned but the student read the definition of marriage out of the dictionary - union between one man and one woman - and it set off the teacher.

The DICTIONARY - horrors.

184 Zimriel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:59:22am

re: #160 FurryOldGuyJeans

ANY Theocracy is antithetical to America and her Constitutional Ideals. Suppression of freedom is bad no matter who is at the controls. If you want an idea of what a "good" theocracy would do to millions who don't believe the same as the approved thought just look at the Facebook/Robert Spenser thread.

You conveniently ignored the Spanish Inquisition. You might want to actually study some more history before you start trying to sound authoritarian here.

Um, I wasn't aware that I was defending theocracy. I believe I was saying that some theocracies are worse than some others.

The Spanish Inquisition is a good point; but if you think we're as close to having something like that here, you need to switch to ye olde decaf.

185 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:59:43am

re: #106 Iron Fist

I make NO assertions an American Theocracy is almost imminent, but to patently ignore the possibility of such happening will only embolden those advocating one.

186 Last Mohican  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:59:46am

OT: Getting back to the previous topic, here is a list of corporate sponsors of the Barclays Dubai Tennis Championships, along with links that you can use to contact the companies, and express the harm done to their corporate branding by sponsoring a tournament where Israelis are excluded because of their national origin. I'm leaving out the companies that are based in the Emirates, for obvious reasons.

Barclay's (see "investor relations")

Lacoste (click "contact" at the top of the page, then pull down "information about company"

Sony Ericsson Under "by email" select the country that you're in, and then "miscellaneous"

Jacob's Creek This is an Australian wine company. Once you navigate through the birthdate verification and selecting the part of the world you're in, look at the bottom of the screen under the wine bottle, and select "contact us."

Pernod Ricard A French company that is the parent of Jacob's Creek. See Investor Relations.

Newsweek (see "letters to the editor")

Wall Street Journal

187 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:59:58am

re: #173 MandyManners

Three nights = $1,800.00. No, let's round it to $2,000.00. Now, say there are 2,300 people as is the case in the present matter.

$460,000.00.

I just spent $300 on a projector bulb - I feel sick.

188 horse  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:01am

re: #4 debutaunt

Jindal seems to be driving reason outta the state.

Katrina and aftermath blew out the state's reasoning, Jindal just parachuted in afterward.

189 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:02am
190 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:16am

re: #165 Boondock St. Bender

Unfortunately,if you look at pamalas' army it would look alot like Hedley LaMarrs from the ending of blazing saddles.

Hey, I got an idea. I just need a bit of lumber, some red and white paint, and a coin box.

191 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:18am

re: #181 Rancher
ck.about 10 threads back.there are a few of them.

192 opnion  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:27am

Just a side issue, Bobby Jindal is really trashing his Presidential chances.

194 ThinkRight  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:52am

Bristol Palin defies her mum on Fox News

Appearing on Fox News in an interview with Greta Van Susteren, a good friend to the Palin brood, a clearly embarrassed Bristol said she did not want to get into the philosophical reasoning behind her decision not to use contraception, but added: "I think abstinence is, like…like the, I don't know how to put it, like… the main… everyone should be abstinent but that's not realistic at all."


Your text to link...

195 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:03am

re: #192 opnion

Just a side issue, Bobby Jindal is really trashing his Presidential chances.

Better now than later.

196 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:11am

"Zero-Sum Mentality is the term used in Community Psychology to describe a way of thinking that hinges on the notion that "there must be one winner and one loser, for every gain there is a loss." Differing schools of thought believe that Social Justice is best attained through cooperative negotiation."

197 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:14am

re: #192 opnion

Just a side issue, Bobby Jindal is really trashing his Presidential chances.

Not amongst the folks he is pandering to.

198 Picayune  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:20am

Charles gets a hat tip from Cycloid, a poster on the NOLA.com linked article:

"I'm a conservative and vote Republican, but Jindal's bill is an anti-science disgrace. You can be religious and believe in evolution. They are not incompatible.

The blog littlegreenfootballs has been covering the lies and propaganda of the creationists, especially the Discovery Institute, for a while. Look here for a lot of articles about the lies of the Discovery Institute who are pushing creationism nationwide now. No other blog is on the subject as much that I'm aware of:"
(gives link to LGF articles)

So, there's hope here abouts, after all. Jindal is voter sensitive.

I like this post to the NOLA article from neworlins:

"Why can't we just teach religion in religion class and science in science class."

That sums it up for me.

Having worked on the NOLA Tourism/Convention marketing account, I agree, Charles, you are too correct- the loss of the biz will hurt, and more than just the loss of revenues.

Other show deciders will notice this move, and many are still concerned about security in NOLA, post Katrina, although the deplannings in '08 were just announced as up from pre-Katrina '05.

So, sure, this hurts a City without a dog in this fight - that really needs all the economic/PR help it can get, these days. Perhaps Gov Jindal can be persuaded to amend his position. We'll see.

199 Annar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:23am

re: #172 jcm

Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology wants to kick God out of the classroom!

See they are bashing Christian's in science!

////////////////////////////////

I thought this god entity already knew everything, why would it need schooling?

200 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:35am

re: #178 thedopefishlives

So, a cool half mil in the toilet because some dope decided to interject religion where it doesn't belong.

That's hitting you where it hurts, especially with the economy on its current downward spiral.

I think my $460,000.00 is kinda' low. I'm thinking many will travel to see how the state is rebuilding so, that'll cost for rentals and gas, as well as accomodations and food. Add in other expenditures, and it's probably between $500,000.00 and $525,000.00.

201 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:01:59am

re: #183 DistantThunder

Apparently,opinion is only a one way street in that shmoe's "classroom"

202 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:02am
203 KansasMom  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:02am

re: #161 DistantThunder

I've worked with some excellent engineers with BYU degrees. In fact, I'd have to say every BYU engineering grad I've worked with has been top-notch.

204 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:11am

re: #180 Sharmuta

I hate when the DI gets it's way and these conversations start talking about religion, because it's not what this is about.

This is about non-science being taught to the children instead of real science. Teaching them a methodical, scientific way of learning- a thought process that with the rise of collectivist, leftist thinking, we could really stand to teach the kids. If we stand any chance of correcting critical thinking skills- it is in science we can look for help. We need to improve science, not by adding ID, but by defending the empirical data and the process which brought it about.

My personal opinion, Shar, is that we need to focus on mathematical disciplines first. Public schooling in math is in a shockingly horrid state of affairs; the only reason I have any skill in mathematics is because I am self-taught and attended a private university. Once the kids can do math, then they can start realizing empirical science.

205 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:13am

re: #164 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

in the THANK GOD category of news,

Israel engaged in covert war inside Iran

"Israel has launched a covert war against Iran as an alternative to direct military strikes against Tehran's nuclear programme," Britain's Daily Telegraph said on Tuesday. "It is using hitmen, sabotage, front companies and double agents to disrupt the regime's illicit weapons project, the experts say."

Quoting intelligence experts and an unnamed former CIA agent, the newspaper said Israel's "decapitation" strategy had targeted members of Iran's atomic programme, hoping to set back the country's nuclear ambitions without resorting to war.


I'm waiting for there to be some "work accidents".
Preferably when Ahamadinejad is visiting.

206 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:32am

My hangover reminds me I was really plowed last night. Do I need to review my posts from last night? I don't remember getting into any fights or saying anything embarrassing.

207 opnion  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:35am

re: #195 unreconstructed rebel

Better now than later.

Yeah, but we need somebody to remove the current regime in 2012.
Mitt or Palin?

208 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:37am

re: #182 CyanSnowHawk

Never mind that once again, the Fourth Estate is acting as the Fifth Column. It is stories like this that will lead to open war, regardless of the truth of them.

I thought of that as well. In the end, I figure the Iranians already knew something like this was going on or their paranoia would have them looking for it anyways. Their have been stories of the Israelis working to destabilize Iran for years, especially thru backing Kurdish rebels who operate between Iraq and Iran.

209 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:02:46am

re: #180 Sharmuta

I hate when the DI gets it's way and these conversations start talking about religion, because it's not what this is about.

This is about non-science being taught to the children instead of real science. Teaching them a methodical, scientific way of learning- a thought process that with the rise of collectivist, leftist thinking, we could really stand to teach the kids. If we stand any chance of correcting critical thinking skills- it is in science we can look for help. We need to improve science, not by adding ID, but by defending the empirical data and the process which brought it about.

But Sharm, that's soooo hard! I might have to actually study to get a good grade. Then, I'd miss American Idol.

///

210 itellu3times  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:03:13am

Think of it as devolution in action.

211 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:03:28am
212 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:03:34am

re: #176 Rancher

Good for them. Hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook. I only wish we would boycott Durban II. Somewhat OT but The Corner's Anne Bayefsky has a good piece on Obama Naïveté at the U.N.

0bama: Terminally naive, or evil? You decide.

213 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:03:54am

re: #195 unreconstructed rebel

Better now than later.

re: #206 Killgore Trout

My hangover reminds me I was really plowed last night. Do I need to review my posts from last night? I don't remember getting into any fights or saying anything embarrassing.

You did make that off-color revelation.....I won't tell.

214 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:04:00am

re: #190 CyanSnowHawk

DAMN!ride on back to town and get me a shitload of dimes!

215 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:04:03am

re: #212 Kosh's Shadow

0bama: Terminally naive, or evil? You decide.

A little from column A, a little from column B...

216 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:04:17am

re: #207 opnion

Yeah, but we need somebody to remove the current regime in 2012.
Mitt or Palin?

So far, I am backing Palin, but she has a lot of maturing to do.

/But then, I backed Rudy last time. Lookit what that got me.

217 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:04:41am

re: #187 DistantThunder

I just spent $300 on a projector bulb - I feel sick.

What kind of projector? Television?

218 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #173 MandyManners

Three nights = $1,800.00. No, let's round it to $2,000.00. Now, say there are 2,300 people as is the case in the present matter.

$460,000.00.

That's just the attendees, it does not consider the cost of the venues, booths, setup, teardown, equipment moving, or any of the other myriad costs involved with putting on a convention. This has cost LA millions.

219 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:05:04am

re: #133 badger1970

Creationists deny science and evolutionists cry out that everything happens by chance; both hold onto their views like a mother protecting her child.

In the way of these two sides are the more rational people who love science, believe that dinosaurs did exist, the universe is billions of years in the making and humans evolved from the apes who decided that eating meat was the way to go (the veggie apes turned into democrats). In school, teach the strict evolutionary theory. The church is there to teach the creationist side to evolution; God the Creator does exist.

For a secular group like the SICB to pull out of a conference because of a disagreement is valid, but petty. That hasn't stop others from be hypocritical (pelosi in Syria and now Vatican City).

Don't want to kill the thread, but the LDS do not and never have believed in creation 'ex nihilo'. Which is also why I am against the 'D.I.' / 'I.D.' / 'Y.E.'ers in that God created, 'poof' 'ta da!' the earth out of 'nothing'.

We are 'creationists' but from the very beginning of our belief since our opinion of the restoration with Joseph Smith is that we believed and still do that God created the earth with existing matter. etc. Organized the earth from element that existed since eternity since matter can not be created or destroyed. Now did he use 'evolution' to further his purposes...I don't know. A lot of evidence is pointing to that he may very well have. 6000 year old Earth? I don't believe so in my personal opinion.

With that said, science by all means needs to continue what it does. So when Cox and Forkum did their picture of the 'God the scientist' touching 'Adam' I got a good chuckle.

220 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:05:10am

re: #199 Annar

I thought this god entity already knew everything, why would it need schooling?

ROFL!

I'm so stealing that line........

221 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:05:21am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

My hangover reminds me I was really plowed last night. Do I need to review my posts from last night? I don't remember getting into any fights or saying anything embarrassing.

Well, you invited me to live at your place and you are suppose to pick me up at the airport at 6:43pm this evening, your time.

222 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:05:29am

re: #207 opnion

Yeah, but we need somebody to remove the current regime in 2012.
Mitt or Palin?

I'd like both - a double scoop. Mitt is smart and talented and ETHICAL enough to be president. Image what benefit we could have had from a financial genius and turn around expert like Mitt.

223 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:05:30am

re: #207 opnion

Yeah, but we need somebody to remove the current regime in 2012.
Mitt or Palin?

Mitt right now for me. We'll need someone with some financial sense to fix this clusterfuck Obama is busy creating.

224 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:06:11am

re: #217 MandyManners

What kind of projector? Television?

Sanyo table top projector -

225 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:06:12am

re: #204 thedopefishlives

My personal opinion, Shar, is that we need to focus on mathematical disciplines first. Public schooling in math is in a shockingly horrid state of affairs; the only reason I have any skill in mathematics is because I am self-taught and attended a private university. Once the kids can do math, then they can start realizing empirical science.

Hi, Fishie. I'm concerned about history and civics education as well. There's lots to correct, but it's against science that the push is being made at this point.

Again- I think we need more people concerned about this to run for school boards and correct it from the inside.

226 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:06:22am

fine...so it's all our businesses what happens in every single school district in every single state? Have an opinion on each and every one? Do we confine ourselves merely to the argument of evolution/ID? How bout sex ed? How bout what to serve for lunch? How bout, well...everything else. I know we'll all have our opinions on each of these questions, and Goddamn, that'd be ALOT of opinions floating around, and of course, full furious word fights with anybody that disagreed with any of our opinions. Seems to me we wouldn't have time for ANYTHING ELSE

227 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:06:41am

re: #222 DistantThunder

I'd like both - a double scoop. Mitt is smart and talented and ETHICAL enough to be president. Image what benefit we could have had from a financial genius and turn around expert like Mitt.

I'm still backing Mitt for another run at this point.

228 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:06:44am

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

Well, you invited me to live at your place and you are suppose to pick me up at the airport at 6:43pm this evening, your time.

I got drunk at a wedding in Israel once and supposedly promised to invest $100,000 in a start up company?

229 Rexatosis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:06:59am

RE # 39 MandyManners:

I go to atleast one Academic Conference a year. Last year my expenses broke down this way:

Registration: $150 (College pd:)
Flight: $450 (to SF from East Coast)
Hotel: $139 a night for 4 nights + Tax (depending on the city 11%-20+%)
Food: $150 (I stopped at the Grocery Store for breakfast/Lunch + one meal out per day)
Entertainment: $120 (includes Beers)
Books/incidentals: $60
Now I am ridiculously disciplined regarding my budget so my expenses are more typical of a broke Grad Student than Tenured Faculty. But I also cut in a bit of vacation with most of the Conferences I go to (an extra day or two, or last year four where I dropped another $800 into the No. Cal economy) but again my tastes are not expensive so my budget is not extravagent. Total $2400-2500. Exclude the flight and registration I dumped about $1800 into the local economy. I would say the average is around that number (older/est. profs. with spouse alot more, grad students less). So each convention is easily dropping a good seven figures into the local economy. If N.O. losses a just a couple of convention/conferences a year it will be very painful for the economy down there.

230 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:07:15am
231 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:07:23am

re: #198 Picayune

Charles gets a hat tip from Cycloid, a poster on the NOLA.com linked article:

"I'm a conservative and vote Republican, but Jindal's bill is an anti-science disgrace. You can be religious and believe in evolution. They are not incompatible.

The blog littlegreenfootballs has been covering the lies and propaganda of the creationists, especially the Discovery Institute, for a while. Look here for a lot of articles about the lies of the Discovery Institute who are pushing creationism nationwide now. No other blog is on the subject as much that I'm aware of:"
(gives link to LGF articles)

So, there's hope here abouts, after all. Jindal is voter sensitive.

I like this post to the NOLA article from neworlins:

"Why can't we just teach religion in religion class and science in science class."

That sums it up for me.

Having worked on the NOLA Tourism/Convention marketing account, I agree, Charles, you are too correct- the loss of the biz will hurt, and more than just the loss of revenues.

Other show deciders will notice this move, and many are still concerned about security in NOLA, post Katrina, although the deplannings in '08 were just announced as up from pre-Katrina '05.

So, sure, this hurts a City without a dog in this fight - that really needs all the economic/PR help it can get, these days. Perhaps Gov Jindal can be persuaded to amend his position. We'll see.

Did you send that to Charles? I just reported it to him.


COOL BEANS!

232 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:07:53am

re: #228 Nevergiveup

I got drunk at a wedding in Israel once and supposedly promised to invest $100,000 in a start up company?

That was you?

233 quickjustice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:08:07am

Hit 'em in the pocketbook. Bad ideas enacted into legislation have consequences too. This will gradually impoverish hardcore creationist/ID regions.

234 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:08:11am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

My hangover reminds me I was really plowed last night. Do I need to review my posts from last night? I don't remember getting into any fights or saying anything embarrassing.

Well, the lampshades took a real beating.

235 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:08:18am

re: #204 thedopefishlives

My personal opinion, Shar, is that we need to focus on mathematical disciplines first. Public schooling in math is in a shockingly horrid state of affairs; the only reason I have any skill in mathematics is because I am self-taught and attended a private university. Once the kids can do math, then they can start realizing empirical science.

The entire curriculum, not just math, is on life-support and in desperate need of corrective surgery.

236 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:08:22am

re: #226 Boolz

If you don't find this subject interesting, there are other threads with other topics.

237 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:08:54am

re: #226 Boolz

You don't get it, do you? What happens in one state can spill over into other states. In fact, as we type, the Discovery Institute is attempting get laws promoting ID in several states. If you don't want it in your state, ignoring the neighboring state won't help. Your state is next on their hit list.

238 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:09:35am

re: #218 CyanSnowHawk

That's just the attendees, it does not consider the cost of the venues, booths, setup, teardown, equipment moving, or any of the other myriad costs involved with putting on a convention. This has cost LA millions.

I had forgotten those costs.

I wonder what the NO tourism bureau thinks about this.

239 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:09:49am

re: #226 Boolz

If you don't like the subject, then get the fuck out of here. Whining little baby.

240 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:09:59am

re: #234 MandyManners

Well, the lampshades took a real beating.

Including the one worn as a hat?

241 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:10:02am

re: #222 DistantThunder

I'd like both - a double scoop. Mitt is smart and talented and ETHICAL enough to be president. Image what benefit we could have had from a financial genius and turn around expert like Mitt.

I'd rather have Congress back.

242 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:10:05am

re: #224 DistantThunder

Sanyo table top projector -

For what? Showing slides from a vacation?

243 KansasMom  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:10:22am

re: #155 Iron Fist
Hardly. Atheists in America are pretty lousy organizers!
You're not equating evolution with atheism are you?

244 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:10:23am

re: #230 Iron Fist

We could hope, but I don't think that is in the cards. I doubt that Ahamadinejad would even visit Gaza or the West Bank. Too dangerous. not from the Israelis, but from one of the many armed whacko gangs that pass for government in the two areas. Everybody wants to kill somebody in the West Bank and Gaza, and they generally aren't too particularly concerned with whoever else gets thrown in the mix, including themselves.

I wouldn't visit the West Bank or Gaza on a dare...

I assumed he meant "work accidents" arranged by Israel at Iranian facilities.

245 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:10:57am

re: #236 Sharmuta

If you don't find this subject interesting, there are other threads with other topics.

I do find it interesting...just not in a political context

246 Rancher  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:10:58am

re: #191 Boondock St. Bender
re: #193 Killgore Trout

Thanks. Shame on Ann.

247 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:00am

re: #235 FurryOldGuyJeans

The entire curriculum, not just math, is on life-support and in desperate need of corrective surgery.

I do agree. There's a lot wrong with the way a lot of things are taught these days. I'm a bit of a mathophile (I know, I made it up), mostly because I see a lot of today's immediate problems that would be solved with the application of some basic math. Economics, for example.

248 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:08am

re: #241 Bloodnok

I'd rather have Congress back.

That's for 2010. Mitt's for 2012.

249 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:18am

re: #228 Nevergiveup

I got drunk at a wedding in Israel once and supposedly promised to invest $100,000 in a start up company?

You gave us your banking numbers and we went ahead and withdrew the funds. You didn't say anything, so I suppose that's OK.

Oh and, sorry to tell you the start-up went belly-up during the Madoff meltdown. You still didn't say anything, so I suppose that's OK.

250 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:23am

re: #222 DistantThunder

I'd like both - a double scoop. Mitt is smart and talented and ETHICAL enough to be president. Image what benefit we could have had from a financial genius and turn around expert like Mitt.

After four - eight years of Obama we will need about 15 of him... fiscally speaking.

251 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:24am

re: #226 Boolz

What happens in one state and one school district DOES matter. For instance, Texas and their near monolithic dominance on the school book publishing industry.

252 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:32am

re: #226 Boolz

fine...so it's all our businesses what happens in every single school district in every single state? Have an opinion on each and every one? Do we confine ourselves merely to the argument of evolution/ID? How bout sex ed? How bout what to serve for lunch? How bout, well...everything else. I know we'll all have our opinions on each of these questions, and Goddamn, that'd be ALOT of opinions floating around, and of course, full furious word fights with anybody that disagreed with any of our opinions. Seems to me we wouldn't have time for ANYTHING ELSE

So many strawmen, so little time.

Your argument is weaker than a day-old kitten.

253 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:36am

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

If you don't like the subject, then get the fuck out of here. Whining little baby.

are we in a bad mood today?

254 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:47am

re: #245 Boolz

I do find it interesting...just not in a political context

I find it interesting too...just not your whining about it.

255 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:51am
256 quickjustice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:56am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

You challenged me to a duel in Weehawken, New Jersey at 2:00 p.m. EST. Remember to bring your blunderbuss! ;-)

257 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:11:57am

re: #230 Iron Fist

We could hope, but I don't think that is in the cards. I doubt that Ahamadinejad would even visit Gaza or the West Bank. Too dangerous. not from the Israelis, but from one of the many armed whacko gangs that pass for government in the two areas. Everybody wants to kill somebody in the West Bank and Gaza, and they generally aren't too particularly concerned with whoever else gets thrown in the mix, including themselves.

I wouldn't visit the West Bank or Gaza on a dare...

I was responding to the reported Israeli covert action against the Iranian nuclear program. I'm hoping they cause some accidents in those facilities; the right breakdowns at the right time could contaminate the entire facility. Like make a bearing fail on a centrifuge when it is passing UF6 and running at full speed. One would take out several more, and release the gas into the facility, if it broke the right way.
If this happened during an Ahmadinejad visit, that would be a bonus, in my book.

258 Wishing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:10am

re: #65 Iron Fist

So where do you put hookers on your expense report? They're a little too pricey to put down as "miscellaneous"...

:-)

Research?

259 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:23am
260 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:37am

You know, I've been sitting here watching lots of threads about ID being taught in public school science classes. If it were tried in my scool district, I would be the 1st on the steps of the school committee/ school superintendent / mayor/ city council LOUDLY protesting it, even though I pulled my kid out of Public school this year.

That said, what will they try to "teach"

"God made the heavens and earth and all on it"

end of chapter,,,, we now take you back to the actual science portion of the class!

//

261 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:38am

re: #229 Rexatosis

RE # 39 MandyManners:

I go to atleast one Academic Conference a year. Last year my expenses broke down this way:

Registration: $150 (College pd:)
Flight: $450 (to SF from East Coast)
Hotel: $139 a night for 4 nights + Tax (depending on the city 11%-20+%)
Food: $150 (I stopped at the Grocery Store for breakfast/Lunch + one meal out per day)
Entertainment: $120 (includes Beers)
Books/incidentals: $60
Now I am ridiculously disciplined regarding my budget so my expenses are more typical of a broke Grad Student than Tenured Faculty. But I also cut in a bit of vacation with most of the Conferences I go to (an extra day or two, or last year four where I dropped another $800 into the No. Cal economy) but again my tastes are not expensive so my budget is not extravagent. Total $2400-2500. Exclude the flight and registration I dumped about $1800 into the local economy. I would say the average is around that number (older/est. profs. with spouse alot more, grad students less). So each convention is easily dropping a good seven figures into the local economy. If N.O. losses a just a couple of convention/conferences a year it will be very painful for the economy down there.

I think just one will send a jolt.

262 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:39am

re: #255 taxfreekiller

Your state is next on the liberal loon way of life list.

I live in Maryland, so, too late...

263 cronus  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:43am

re: #226 Boolz

fine...so it's all our businesses what happens in every single school district in every single state? Have an opinion on each and every one? Do we confine ourselves merely to the argument of evolution/ID? How bout sex ed? How bout what to serve for lunch? How bout, well...everything else. I know we'll all have our opinions on each of these questions, and Goddamn, that'd be ALOT of opinions floating around, and of course, full furious word fights with anybody that disagreed with any of our opinions. Seems to me we wouldn't have time for ANYTHING ELSE

When DI has a specific strategy to get a foothold somewhere in America and then use that win as validation to aggressively export that strategy across the county then yes, it is our business wherever it is happening.

264 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:57am

re: #236 Sharmuta

If you don't find this subject interesting, there are other threads with other topics.


Boy if I had a nickel for everytime you've had to say that Sharm I'd probably have my dream yellow Beemer by now.

265 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #258 Wishing

Research?

Be careful with that one. Somebody may want a report.

266 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #247 thedopefishlives

I do agree. There's a lot wrong with the way a lot of things are taught these days. I'm a bit of a mathophile (I know, I made it up), mostly because I see a lot of today's immediate problems that would be solved with the application of some basic math. Economics, for example.

The real problem is the agenda behind the curriculum.

267 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:13:02am

re: #252 MandyManners

So many strawmen, so little time.

That's why flame throwers were invented. Let's torch these strawmen.

268 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:13:03am

re: #253 Boolz

are we in a bad mood today?

No, I'm just putting it in some language that maybe you understand, since you refuse to listen to anyone else here.

Stop whining, grow up.

269 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:13:08am

re: #249 Alouette

You gave us your banking numbers and we went ahead and withdrew the funds. You didn't say anything, so I suppose that's OK.

Oh and, sorry to tell you the start-up went belly-up during the Madoff meltdown. You still didn't say anything, so I suppose that's OK.

Believe me I was so drunk I might have.

270 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:13:30am

re: #204 thedopefishlives

My personal opinion, Shar, is that we need to focus on mathematical disciplines first. Public schooling in math is in a shockingly horrid state of affairs; the only reason I have any skill in mathematics is because I am self-taught and attended a private university. Once the kids can do math, then they can start realizing empirical science.

But that doesn't address the problem. Science is being taught in schools, and there is a concerted effort to push a religious belief into that science curriculum.

271 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:13:32am

re: #237 Honorary Yooper

You don't get it, do you? What happens in one state can spill over into other states. In fact, as we type, the Discovery Institute is attempting get laws promoting ID in several states. If you don't want it in your state, ignoring the neighboring state won't help. Your state is next on their hit list.

And, states are not islands unto themselves.

272 acwgusa  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:14:06am

re: #252 MandyManners

So many strawmen, so little time.

Your argument is weaker than a day-old kitten.

Day old kittens are cute.

/Yes, its a non sequitur type of day.

273 Rancher  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:14:11am

re: #247 thedopefishlives

I do agree. There's a lot wrong with the way a lot of things are taught these days. I'm a bit of a mathophile (I know, I made it up), mostly because I see a lot of today's immediate problems that would be solved with the application of some basic math. Economics, for example.

Unfortunately economics is half math and half psychology.

274 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:15:14am

re: #245 Boolz

I do find it interesting...just not in a political context

What other context is there when an organization is trying to destroy science education in this nation?

Also, have you READ the links Charles has posted that show a lot of these players are wanting a theocracy in America?

Have you read about the links between them and that Turkish, Muslim creationist?

READ.

275 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:15:21am

re: #116 Boolz

well, I guess I won't vote for him then...oh wait, I CAN'T vote for him cause he's in a different state...can't vote for or against Jindal either. So I guess the proper thing to do is not worry so much about what goes on in OTHER PEOPLES STATES, and concentrate more about what goes on in my own. I know, I know...weird concept

Here in Texas, our own governor "Goodhair" Perry (the John Edwards of the GOP) is Jindal's bosom-buddy and likewise a fellow-traveler of the creationism industry. He recently re-appointed Dr. Don McLeroy a barking mad young-earth creationist, to serve as chairman of the state board of education. Creationism is not confined to one state, or even one nation, it is a global movement and must be addressed as such.

276 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:15:30am

All you guys made me paranoid. I checked and it seems I behaved myself.

277 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:15:33am

re: #271 MandyManners

And, states are not islands unto themselves.

We're a Union- what happens to one affects us all.

278 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:15:51am

re: #253 Boolz

are we in a bad mood today?

And easy way to clear things up Boolz. Do you believe in evolution? And I am not asking if you believe in God, or creationism, simply put, do you believe in evolution? One word answer.

Yes/No?

279 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:15:55am

re: #251 FurryOldGuyJeans

What happens in one state and one school district DOES matter. For instance, Texas and their near monolithic dominance on the school book publishing industry.

I'd forgotten that angle.

280 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:00am

re: #241 Bloodnok

I'd rather have Congress back.

That is a lot closer than the next Presidential election. 2 less years of Socialist re-engineering is something to be desired. Not having a rubber-stamp, lap dog Congress would work wonders to blunt O.

281 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:05am

re: #156 MandyManners

If the attack is on two fronts, then if they are ill-perceived on one front, they'll be seen the same way on all other fronts.

If I understand your originally question, you asked why cannot the attack be on both the historical and scientific issues. The perception that is being shaped of the ID people is that they are quasi-religious fanatics with a poor science background, mounting a knee-jerk attack on a progressive, modern and widely accepted view point. In other words, the ID people are being tarred with the loony brush in one arena. That same brush will be used on them in the historical fight.

Now, if they break off the science attack, reform and launch a new attack on the historical front--they'll still be smeared. Depending on how they present their arguments, the smears might not work as well in this circumstance.

282 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:26am

re: #253 Boolz

are we in a bad mood today?

You might wanna' stop before you get on his bad side.

283 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:34am

OT:

Some of you may remember last week, when I posted about some sort of major incident occuring at York University on Wednesday night, in which a number of Jewish students were herded into their Hillel (Jewish Students Association) Office by an anti-Israeli mob and had to be escorted out by Toronto police for fear of their safety.

The incident made major splashes all over Canadian Media, and was even mentioned in Israeli (and Palestinian) newspapers as well.

The following day, there was a major anti-Israel rally planned, and the pro-Israeli and Jewish students, in light of the events from the night before, organized a counter-protest which completely out-performed the Hamas-sympathizers, and lasted long after the anti-Israeli groups had left the campus center.

Here is a round-up of articles on what happened the Wednesday night, as well as a link to a youtube channel with video from the counter-protest the following day.

Globe and Mail article on the incident
National Post Article on the incident
National Post Reporters' Commentary on the incident
National Post publishes YorkU Law Student's Commentary
National Post Eye-Witness account
YNetNews Article on the incident
Elder of Ziyon discovering the Palestinians had heard of it as well

Youtube Channel

284 Grundle  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:42am

No reason to get in the way of giving people what they want. Same reason Californians voted for no gay marriage. It's a religious thing.

"We have no government armed in power capable of contending with
human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our
Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
John Adams

285 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:45am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

All you guys made me paranoid. I checked and it seems I behaved myself.

Yea, but a left you a really nice reminder about LOST, with some interesting commentary, and you never answered me.

I cried myself to sleep.

286 Picayune  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:53am

re: #218 CyanSnowHawk

Yep, and even more $$$ due to the turnover factor - restaurants, tourist shops, tours, etc.. Big Bucks lost here, and it will hurt, and be noticed.

287 Max Darkside  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:55am

re: #272 acwgusa

Yes, its a non sequitur type of day.

Lost in Space (Penny was hot)
I Dream of Jeanie
The Munsters

I always liked the movie "Them" with the giant ants. Scared the poop out of me as a kid. I have to see if I can buy a copy...

/you mean like that?
//you'd have to be on a thread a few back to re-sequiturize.

288 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:16:58am

re: #259 buzzsawmonkey

My name's not Ed, but I'm listening...

*giggle*

289 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:17:21am

re: #282 MandyManners

You might wanna' stop before you get on his bad side.

LOL

290 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:17:25am

re: #270 CyanSnowHawk

But that doesn't address the problem. Science is being taught in schools, and there is a concerted effort to push a religious belief into that science curriculum.

Yes, that's true. But the fundamental problem is the weakening of objective results in EVERY discipline, the "liberalization", if you will, of education. It's not about 1+1=2; it's about "What do you think 1+1 gives you," or even better, "How do you feel about 1+1?" The foundation of empirical science is mathematics. With the loss of strong mathematical discipline, religious fanatics are able to weaken the scientific discipline by inserting subjective belief into the picture.

291 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:17:31am

re: #273 Rancher

Unfortunately economics is half math and half psychology.

Super Ding!

.... and I maintain that economics should be taught at the high school level ..... except that we couldn't find anyone to teach it.

292 Picayune  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:17:51am

re: #231 MandyManners

Nope, thought he's cover it here. Thanks.

293 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #279 MandyManners

I'd forgotten that angle.

That is the truly scary part, that simple economics could be the wedge.

294 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:10am
295 Wishing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #226 Boolz

fine...so it's all our businesses what happens in every single school district in every single state? Have an opinion on each and every one? Do we confine ourselves merely to the argument of evolution/ID? How bout sex ed? How bout what to serve for lunch? How bout, well...everything else. I know we'll all have our opinions on each of these questions, and Goddamn, that'd be ALOT of opinions floating around, and of course, full furious word fights with anybody that disagreed with any of our opinions. Seems to me we wouldn't have time for ANYTHING ELSE

What maybe you are not grasping is that establishing ANY religion is not allowed based on our constitution. If it is OK to teach Christian view of creation in science class, how about we teach Islamic social norms in geography class?
These people are trying to erode the Constitution.

296 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:13am

re: #267 Honorary Yooper

That's why flame throwers were invented. Let's torch these strawmen.

You trying to destroy the entire atmosphere all at once?

297 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:33am

look...we got the fairness doctrine to worry about ( a REAL first amendment issue)...we got energy independence to worry about...we have lots of stuff to worry about MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS. But go ahead, keep yapping about this instead. By the way...complaining that every district doesn't match your preset criteria on the way things should be done sounds like whining to me

298 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:35am

re: #287 Max Darkside

Lost in Space (Penny was hot)
I Dream of Jeanie
The Munsters

I always liked the movie "Them" with the giant ants. Scared the poop out of me as a kid. I have to see if I can buy a copy...

/you mean like that?
//you'd have to be on a thread a few back to re-sequiturize.

Love the opening of "THEM," with the little girl in the storeroom, sitting amongst the spilled sugar and say only one word... "them."

299 x-wing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:56am

re: #282 MandyManners

You might wanna' stop before you get on his bad side.

Mr. McGee, don't make me angry...You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

/

300 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:19:30am

re: #284 Grundle

I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together.

~James Madison

301 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:19:34am

re: #272 acwgusa

Day old kittens are cute.

/Yes, its a non sequitur type of day.

Yes, they are.

302 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:01am
303 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:05am

re: #297 Boolz

look...we got the fairness doctrine to worry about ( a REAL first amendment issue)...we got energy independence to worry about...we have lots of stuff to worry about MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS. But go ahead, keep yapping about this instead. By the way...complaining that every district doesn't match your preset criteria on the way things should be done sounds like whining to me

You did not answer my question...

And easy way to clear things up Boolz. Do you believe in evolution? And I am not asking if you believe in God, or creationism, simply put, do you believe in evolution? One word answer.

Yes/No?

304 Annar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:10am

re: #212 Kosh's Shadow

Unfortunately U.S. Jewish support for the Democrats will not decrease even if the Jews of Israel are being driven into the sea. They'll find a way to blame Bush, Rice etc. and get ready to welcome the refugees. It's sad but predictable.

305 BigAl  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:10am

OT: I see world financial markets are really thrilled by the US 'stimulus'. Worst legislation in American history.

306 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:14am

re: #297 Boolz

Reading you sounds like whining. Are you looking for the cookies?

307 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:14am
308 formercorpsman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:16am

re: #226 Boolz

Aside from the scientific argument versus religious argument, this opens the door as legal precedent for challenges from other players in the future.

I am perfectly fine allowing this in something such as a comparative religion class. Science class, no.

You do realize, other actors would cite this in a court of law as legal rationale to position themselves?

309 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:19am

re: #297 Boolz
Lizards are excellent at multitasking.

310 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:23am

So everybody making a ton of money in the stock market today?

311 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:37am

re: #277 Sharmuta

We're a Union- what happens to one affects us all.

We don't have to be identical in our laws but, our intent needs to be similar.

312 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:52am

re: #299 x-wing

Mr. McGee, don't make me angry...You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

I loved that show when I was a kid. They are once again showing it on "RetroTelevision" here. Wow, "The Incredible Hulk" a baaaaaad show.

313 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:20:53am

re: #238 MandyManners

I had forgotten those costs.

I wonder what the "NO tourism" bureau thinks about this.

You answered your own question.

/Maybe not exactly "no tourism", but you didn't say the "we're screwed tourism bureau."

314 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:21:03am

re: #282 MandyManners

You might wanna' stop before you get on his bad side.

he's not going to beat me up, is he?

315 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:21:24am

Have a great day all!

316 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:21:45am
317 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:21:55am

re: #309 scottishbuzzsaw

Lizards are excellent at multitasking.

Scottish! Hope today finds you well...
/I almost couldn't type that cause I was chewing gum..

318 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:22:07am

re: #242 MandyManners

For what? Showing slides from a vacation?

Playing games....
Much better if the whole wall is your screen!
///////

319 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:22:24am

re: #297 Boolz

Yet whining that changing the curriculum to suit YOUR demands is perfectly acceptable, it seems.

320 Max Darkside  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:22:36am

re: #305 BigAl

OT: I see world financial markets are really thrilled by the US 'stimulus'. Worst legislation in American history.

Yup... PBO just lost you another 4-5% out yer 401(k) or index retirement funds, but that's ok, cuz it will make you come to the guvnmnt to beg for money later.

321 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #316 Iron Fist

Yeah, it's a dangerous rule to violate.

322 Max Darkside  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:23:36am

re: #312 MrSilverDragon

I loved that show when I was a kid. They are once again showing it on "RetroTelevision" here. Wow, "The Incredible Hulk" a baaaaaad show.

I KNEW we would get back on TV shows again...

/feeling vindicated for non-sekwiterization offenses.

323 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:23:40am

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Scottish! Hope today finds you well...
/I almost couldn't type that cause I was chewing gum..

{HH!} All's well, my friend...how goes it with you?

324 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:23:47am

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

You did not answer my question...

And easy way to clear things up Boolz. Do you believe in evolution? And I am not asking if you believe in God, or creationism, simply put, do you believe in evolution? One word answer.

Yes/No?

yes

325 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:24:21am

re: #9 Boolz

wow...the scientists have decided UTAH is less religiously whacko than Louisiana

Utah isn't religiously whacko. Say what you will about the doctrines and rituals of the LDS, they don't go after science with laws like LA has just passed. There are scientists among the LDS who publicly back evolution and are not admonished or "corrected". David Bailey debunks claims that evolution is against probability.

326 dry_heavz_4_alla  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:24:49am

OT: I know this story has already been covered, but there's a link to a NY article about the TV mogul beheading on the front page, and get this ... it's a spokesperson for NOW leading the charge against honor killings and the silence surrounding them! Does this qualify as a flying pig moment?

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

327 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:24:51am

Lordy - My headline of the day.

Moscow Optimistic about America's New Beginning

With this tidbit:

SPIEGEL: You like to speak of principles. One of the principles of the OSCE is that: There can be no use of force to change national borders. This principle was very much endorsed by Russia in the case of Kosovo, which broke away from Serbia. In the case of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which broke away from Georgia, Russia is applying other principles. It wants to annex these areas. There are more troops stationed there than agreed and there are even plans to build Russian military bases.

Lavrov: We fully embrace the principle of territorial integrity. But there is worldwide disagreement over how compatible this is with peoples' rights to self-determination. Up until now, there has only been one document that addresses the conflict of objectives -- the UN passed it in 1970. This affirms that every state should respect the territorial integrity of every other state, as long as no acts of violence are being carried out against national minorities in this region.

Gees, never heard that one before.

328 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:25:15am

re: #281 calcajun

If I understand your originally question, you asked why cannot the attack be on both the historical and scientific issues. The perception that is being shaped of the ID people is that they are quasi-religious fanatics with a poor science background, mounting a knee-jerk attack on a progressive, modern and widely accepted view point. In other words, the ID people are being tarred with the loony brush in one arena. That same brush will be used on them in the historical fight.

Now, if they break off the science attack, reform and launch a new attack on the historical front--they'll still be smeared. Depending on how they present their arguments, the smears might not work as well in this circumstance.

I don't think that the ID bunch at the top have poor science back-grounds. Nor do I think this is a knee-jerk attack. Some of these folks, and their associates in other areas with a similar goal (theocracy), have been working away at it for 30 years.

I guarantee you you will find folks in the ID movement who are also connected to the CCC, some of which are in the FRC and many of those discussed in one of Charles' threads yesterday.

BTW, I'm not saying that the "right" is trying to subvert history. I'm saying that the LEFT is doing so.

329 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:25:37am

So, I did some vanity searching and checked my karma on this thread. teleskiguy didn't like my #5 --no humor.

330 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:25:37am

re: #323 scottishbuzzsaw

{HH!} All's well, my friend...how goes it with you?

Just doing wonderful Scottish..Glad everything is OK with you and the family..There is a Cisco Switch in China not working.. So I'll jump off here for a while...Regards

331 Fat Jolly Penguin  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:25:50am

re: #326 dry_heavz_4_alla

See the next thread. :)

332 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:26:13am

re: #329 ggt

So, I did some vanity searching and checked my karma on this thread. teleskiguy didn't like my #5 --no humor.

Strange to down-ding and not even participate by posting a comment . .

333 Max Darkside  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:26:22am

re: #325 lostlakehiker

David Bailey debunks claims that evolution is against probability


Actually, evolution uses probability and selection pressure to advance. I know, I'm in the business of high-speed digital evolution using "genetic algorithms". Works real well for solving all sorts of problems using 'puters.

334 x-wing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:26:43am

re: #312 MrSilverDragon

I loved that show when I was a kid. They are once again showing it on "RetroTelevision" here. Wow, "The Incredible Hulk" a baaaaaad show.

Same here ;>} and thanks for the heads up. I'll check my local to see if we have Retro.

335 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:26:45am

re: #297 Boolz

Asshole.

Get your own blog.

336 KansasMom  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:27:15am

re: #294 Iron Fist
OK. I don't think they are at odds either, except in the minds of the crazies who want to replace one with the other. I am just not aware of any atheist movement to remove religion from American society.

337 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:27:20am

re: #297 Boolz

So basically you are accusing the blog owner of "yapping" about this subject? Even though there are dozens of posters who want to talk about it and (gasp) enjoy talking about it? Spare us your concern for the real issues of the day. You're just want this issue to go away for the issue's sake -not for the benefit of the fairness doctrine or anything else.

338 Boolz  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:27:48am

re: #319 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet whining that changing the curriculum to suit YOUR demands is perfectly acceptable, it seems.

no...I think this is a matter to be dealt with per district by the people WITHIN that district.

339 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:27:49am

re: #314 Boolz

he's not going to beat me up, is he?

Not acquainted with my *whacker* are you?

340 x-wing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:28:37am

re: #316 Iron Fist

Man, there's a reason I have my rule...

I have heard of your rule but haven't seen it. Could you please repeat it for me?

341 dry_heavz_4_alla  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:28:59am

re: #331 Fat Jolly Penguin

See the next thread. :)

Wow, that was quick ...

342 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:29:48am

re: #314 Boolz

he's not going to beat me up, is he?

He'll use...sarcasm.

343 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:30:29am

re: #297 Boolz

And with that, I bid you adieu.

344 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:30:49am

re: #338 Boolz

no...I think this is a matter to be dealt with per district by the people WITHIN that district.

In other words- you just want Charles to shut up about it. That about sum it up?

345 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:31:43am

re: #328 MandyManners

BTW, I'm not saying that the "right" is trying to subvert history. I'm saying that the LEFT is doing so.

That's my point. They are doing so in an ultimate effort to undermine the Constitution.

346 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:32:01am

Morning all. Forgive me if this has already been talked about, but two links:

The Dow

EPA to review Bush rule on warming emissions
Environmental groups expect curbs on coal-fired power plants

From the second link:

This is the third Obama administration action that reverses or reconsiders Bush-era environmental policies.

Earlier this month, the Interior Department withdrew oil and natural gas drilling leases near two national parks in Utah. It also shelved a draft plan to open much of the Atlantic and Pacific coasts to drilling.

I posted both links, because, as a pair, they further expose what the Obama administration has in mind.

The Dow is tanking - and has since the election. On top of all the rest, there's now a push to a) increase the cost of operating a coal fired plant while shelving plans to open drilling in the interior and the coasts.

I fear that shortly we'll not only be broke, but sitting in the dark, shivering with the cold.

347 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:33:30am

re: #1 FurryOldGuyJeans

This will only strengthen the resolve of the Creationists they are on the "right" path. A lot will be awarding themselves martyr points for this perceived persecution.

I was thinking the same thing. The creationists are probably very happy with this decision, because those Godless scientists hellbent on eugenics and destroying the vestiges of religion in every facet of society won't be sulying the hallowed ground that is Louisiana. Gov. Jindal and anybody else who buys into this ID crap are idiots. That would make almost half of America idiots, acoording to a recent poll.

348 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:34:12am
349 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:34:24am

re: #327 SasquatchOnSteroids

Lordy - My headline of the day.

Moscow Optimistic about America's New Beginning Pending Collapse into the Dustbin of History.


There, fixed it.

350 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:35:07am

re: #173 MandyManners

Three nights = $1,800.00. No, let's round it to $2,000.00. Now, say there are 2,300 people as is the case in the present matter.

$460,000.00.


Here is a sample for an upcoming Medical Conference in April in New Orleans for 3 days/2 nights. Most of us who attend conferences like this, go for an extra day and night stays before or after the Anesthesia Conferences.
[Link: www.nwas.com...]
Astor Crowne Plaza Plus 13% state tax & $2 Occupancy Tax @ $225 single or double per night.
Tuition fees 775.00
This is without food, drinks, entertainment after the conference hours, tips, transportation to Nawlins' airport and taxi's.

Our last conference there we,(my husband and I) ran a tab of $4800.00 for four days, and that was us sharing a room.

Jindal and his whole state will feel this boycott, and N.O's will be the biggest loser.

351 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:36:11am

re: #297 Boolz

look...we got the fairness doctrine to worry about ( a REAL first amendment issue)...we got energy independence to worry about...we have lots of stuff to worry about MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS. But go ahead, keep yapping about this instead. By the way...complaining that every district doesn't match your preset criteria on the way things should be done sounds like whining to me

First Amendment does not apply here.
The Government is not regulating what can be said here.
This is a private club, registration required. The proprietor is Charles, the bouncer is Stinky (whom you shall soon meet). Choice of subject and allowed topics is completely at the discretion of the proprietor.
Get it?

352 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:36:32am

re: #297 Boolz

look...we got the fairness doctrine to worry about ( a REAL first amendment issue)...we got energy independence to worry about...we have lots of stuff to worry about MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS. But go ahead, keep yapping about this instead. By the way...complaining that every district doesn't match your preset criteria on the way things should be done sounds like whining to me

OK, you're right. Go ahead and make Southern Baptist doctrine the catechism of science class in the public schools. Unbelievers can send their kids to private school anyhow, right? The constitution is a scrap of paper, and almost anything is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. We got energy independence to worry about. Good thing that the ins and outs of energy have nothing to do with science. That way, it won't hurt that our kids don't know squat about science. How could they, when they learned in school that science is either evil, contradicting Preacher John, or redundant, confirming Preacher John?

We got the fairness doctrine to worry about. But why do we worry about it? If the states can establish an official religion for the classroom, SURELY the Federal Government can establish, not an official position for public commenters, but merely a modest requirement that both sides, the USA position and the RWinger position, be presented side by side, fairly. And the government will take notes: if a radio announcer unfairly suggests that the RW position has some merit, when the government fairness auditor and all his co-workers can see clearly that it has none, then the announcer is practicing favoritism. He'll have to go. And that's fair enough. When one scrap of paper in the constitution goes, the next goes too, when it's time to tear it out.

Sorry about all the yapping, but I just had to agree with you. All the way, including everything that's implicit in what you're asking for.

/JindalMcLeroy

353 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:36:47am

Again, please note that it does not matter one iota how many posts on other subjects are on the front page -- people like Boolz will still throw a fit and complain "There are other subjects vastly more important! What the hell is wrong with you people! Stop! Stop stop stop! Waaaaah!"

354 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:38:49am

re: #353 Charles

Again, please note that it does not matter one iota how many posts on other subjects are on the front page -- people like Boolz will still throw a fit and complain "There are other subjects vastly more important! What the hell is wrong with you people! Stop! Stop stop stop! Waaaaah!"

"Daddy, turn the light off, it burns us!"

355 VioletTiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:39:44am

re: #15 FurryOldGuyJeans

Antisemitism, Creationism, Jihadic Terrorism. Religion perverted by venal people.


It's a common theme, isn't it?

356 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:40:32am

re: #353 Charles

Talk about Boolzshit.

357 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:42:09am

re: #333 Max Darkside

Actually, evolution uses probability and selection pressure to advance. I know, I'm in the business of high-speed digital evolution using "genetic algorithms". Works real well for solving all sorts of problems using 'puters.

If you get into the paper behind the link, it'll be clearer. Text for a link has to be short and that makes it hard to be precise. He debunks claims that evolution requires strokes of luck that are ridiculously improbable...numbers have been bandied about such as "odds against this are 10^(-183)", and the reasoning behind those numbers is rotten. And he explains why it's rotten.

Yes, genetic algorithms are great at sorting through huge solution spaces to arrive at some of the very few points at which the objective function is well above its average. And they do it through a mix of chance and selective pressure. Kind of like, well, life.

358 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:42:21am
359 dentate  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:47:44am

Shamefully the Congress of Neurological Surgeons will be meeting there in October. I will not get anywhere protesting the locale. An amazing number of brain surgeons are totally clueless about science.

360 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:48:23am

I gotta go an edit some videos. Laterz...

361 doppelganglander  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:52:46am

re: #283 Joo-LiZ

Thanks for the update. That is indeed good news.

362 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:01:26am

re: #350 notutopia

. . .Jindal and his whole state will feel this boycott, and N.O's will be the biggest loser.

Actually- New Orleans will be the loser. The rest of the state actually subsidizes New Orleans, in that state funds are used to pay whatsisface and upgrades to the dome, in order to keep the Saints owner (Benson?) to kat the dome to attract tourist dollars, which all stay in New Orleans (little or no benefit to the rest of the state).

This group has a legitimate reason to choose another venue, but unfortunately, the rest of the state won't really notice.

363 Amer-I-Can  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:07:34am

And I used to have immense respect for Bobby Jindal. I'm not quite sure what to think now... this was soooo much BS and political dick grabbing, I hope it felt good.

364 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:09:49am

re: #284 Grundle

No reason to get in the way of giving people what they want. Same reason Californians voted for no gay marriage. It's a religious thing.

"We have no government armed in power capable of contending with
human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our
Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
John Adams

People in the South used to want segregation forever and Jim Crow. And it wasn't from inside or by popular vote that they were ended. Some things, like polluting public high school science education with religious dogma, are wrong and should not be permitted no matter how many people want them.

365 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:12:11am

re: #290 thedopefishlives

Yes, that's true. But the fundamental problem is the weakening of objective results in EVERY discipline, the "liberalization", if you will, of education. It's not about 1+1=2; it's about "What do you think 1+1 gives you," or even better, "How do you feel about 1+1?" The foundation of empirical science is mathematics. With the loss of strong mathematical discipline, religious fanatics are able to weaken the scientific discipline by inserting subjective belief into the picture.

And the foundation of mathematics is logic. I would mandate that two full years of aristotelian logic be taught in high school. That way students would have the cognitive tools with which to evaluate the truth claims of the information avalanche with which they're inundated.

366 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:14:36am

re: #15 FurryOldGuyJeans

Antisemitism, Creationism, Jihadic Terrorism. Religion perverted by venal people.

You honestly feel that Creationism belongs in this list? My religion teaches that God created the Heavens and the Earth. Does that mean that my religion perverted itself?

Charles, what do you think?

367 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:21:17am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

My hangover reminds me I was really plowed last night. Do I need to review my posts from last night? I don't remember getting into any fights or saying anything embarrassing.

I thought the video was funny.

368 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:24:28am

re: #366 TooDamNice

You honestly feel that Creationism belongs in this list? My religion teaches that God created the Heavens and the Earth. Does that mean that my religion perverted itself?

Charles, what do you think?

Yes, I think creationism belongs in that list. And you know very well that this is not about "God created the heavens and the Earth." It's about pseudo-science being taught to children.

369 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:24:56am

re: #366 TooDamNice

You honestly feel that Creationism belongs in this list? My religion teaches that God created the Heavens and the Earth. Does that mean that my religion perverted itself?

Charles, what do you think?

Antisemitism, creationism and jihadi terrorism are all justified by literal readings of ancient scriptures. As is polygamy and slavery.

370 toodamnice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:29:10am

re: #368 Charles

Surely you do not feel that teaching ID or whatever rises to the level of Nazism or 9-11 for example? I mean come on now...

371 toodamnice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:32:14am

re: #369 Salamantis

Antisemitism, creationism and jihadi terrorism are all justified by literal readings of ancient scriptures. As is polygamy and slavery.

What is supposedly "justified" and what actually is done are two different things. Just because the Old Testament spoke of slavery, that does not mean it rises to the level of jihad. In other words, FEW Jews or Christians have slaves, many more follower of Islam support or carry out jihatist (sp?) acts.

372 KansasMom  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:35:51am

re: #358 Iron Fist
Taken quite a few actually, have a degree in engineering. Luckily for me, my personal experience has been quite different from yours.
I know there are crazies on each side of the coin. But honestly, I do not believe we are in any danger of turning into an atheistic society. Religion is too ingrained into American society and culture for that. I think the danger lies more in the dumbing down of our educational system to the point where people really think that creationism/ID should replace real scientific education. And that their feelings about math are more important than their knowledge of it. We are already outsourcing engineering work to India and Russia.

373 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #372 KansasMom

Taken quite a few actually, have a degree in engineering. Luckily for me, my personal experience has been quite different from yours.
I know there are crazies on each side of the coin. But honestly, I do not believe we are in any danger of turning into an atheistic society. Religion is too ingrained into American society and culture for that. I think the danger lies more in the dumbing down of our educational system to the point where people really think that creationism/ID should replace real scientific education. And that their feelings about math are more important than their knowledge of it. We are already outsourcing engineering work to India and Russia.

I agree.

374 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:55am

re: #366 TooDamNice

You honestly feel that Creationism belongs in this list? My religion teaches that God created the Heavens and the Earth. Does that mean that my religion perverted itself?

Charles, what do you think?

Sheesh, have you ever bothered to read ANY of the threads on ID?

The point that "Creationism" ≠ "belief in a Creator" has only been made about fifty thousand times, by Charles and countless other posters.

That said, I don't agree that "Creationism" belongs on a list with antisemitism and jihadism, since Creationism can be relatively harmless while the other two cannot.

375 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:33am

re: #371 toodamnice

What is supposedly "justified" and what actually is done are two different things. Just because the Old Testament spoke of slavery, that does not mean it rises to the level of jihad. In other words, FEW Jews or Christians have slaves, many more follower of Islam support or carry out jihatist (sp?) acts.

The Southern Baptist and Southern Methodist denominations split from their parent churches in the 1840s over the issue, contending that the Bible sanctioned slavery through the parable of Noah and Ham, who was burned with a mark by God that indicated that all his descendents would be slaves, for witnessing his father's naked drunkenness. These denominations interpreted blackness as that burned mark. Thus the Civil War, in which 400,000 Americans died, had a theological, Onward Christian Soldier aspect - on both sides.

376 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:54:08am

re: #369 Salamantis

Antisemitism, creationism and jihadi terrorism are all justified by literal readings of ancient scriptures. As is polygamy and slavery.

You downdinged this, alexa kim; why? Do you want me to cite you the fucking scriptures? If you know jack shit about the Bible and the Quran, you know they're in there.

377 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:42am

re: #375 Salamantis

The Southern Baptist and Southern Methodist denominations split from their parent churches in the 1840s over the issue, contending that the Bible sanctioned slavery through the parable of Noah and Ham, who was burned with a mark by God that indicated that all his descendents would be slaves, for witnessing his father's naked drunkenness. These denominations interpreted blackness as that burned mark. Thus the Civil War, in which 400,000 Americans died, had a theological, Onward Christian Soldier aspect - on both sides.

And... so? This discussion isn't happening in the 1800s. My point stands.

378 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #159 SasquatchOnSteroids

OT - maybe already posted,but...

Student sues L.A. City College district over gay-marriage speech

Beautiful.

The story also mentions that two other students in the public-speaking class complained about the speech against gay marriage that the plaintiff (student Jonathan Lopez) had delivered as part of an assignment.

However, the story is not totally clear as to whether the complaints from these two other students came before or after the professor's actions against Lopez. In other words, was the prof simply a thin-skinned wussy, or was the prof forced to take some action against Lopez in order to resolve the complaints brought up by the other students?

It's also possible that Lopez's account of things leaves out some key details about how things unfolded in the classroom -- not necessarily because he's intentionally lying, but because subjective perceptions differ. (If you call me an "asshole," that's inexcusable rudeness; if I call you an "asshole," that's refreshing candor.)

379 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:26pm

re: #377 TooDamNice

My point stands.

As the saying goes: "You have a point, but if you parted your hair differently, maybe no one would notice."

380 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:42pm

re: #376 Salamantis

This is quote from your favorite guy Darwin:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world.

Wow. Heavy language.

381 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:29pm

re: #173 MandyManners

Three nights = $1,800.00. No, let's round it to $2,000.00. Now, say there are 2,300 people as is the case in the present matter.

$460,000.00.

That aint jindaly-squat.

382 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:34pm

re: #379 Throbert McGee

As the saying goes: "You have a point, but if you parted your hair differently, maybe no one would notice."

Funny?

383 Mr Secul  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:55:27pm

re: #343 Charles

Has somebody put up a prize?

Its almost like a new Olympic sport, how fast can each participant get booted from LGF? Are there prizes for artistic merit? Extra martyr points? Minimum number of posts required? Maximum cliche points?

Is there an LGF exit bingo game in progress?

Is there another blog somewhere where they all meet up to expose their victimization or decide who is the winner?

384 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:06:53pm

re: #380 TooDamNice

This is quote from your favorite guy Darwin:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world.

Wow. Heavy language.

He wasn't advocating, he was predicting. And, if one takes civilized and savage at their face value, his prediction is indeed coming to pass, as indigenous traditional cultures are having their children progressively absorbed into more scientifically and technologically based societies.

385 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:09:39pm

re: #384 Salamantis

He wasn't advocating, he was predicting. And, if one takes civilized and savage at their face value, his prediction is indeed coming to pass, as indigenous traditional cultures are having their children progressively absorbed into more scientifically and technologically based societies.

We are also pushing the 'anthropophagenous apes' - orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees and bonobos - to the brink of extinction, by encroaching on their natural habitat to the degree that they scarcely have any remaining. If you'll remember, that was the other prediction in that passage.

386 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:11:42pm

re: #380 TooDamNice

This is quote from your favorite guy Darwin:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world.

Wow. Heavy language.

This is such a completely silly point. Charles Darwin lived in a time when racism was everywhere. He was a product of his time. But if you care to actually look into this instead of just reading propaganda from creationist websites and regurgitating it here, you'll find that Darwin was far LESS racist than many of his contemporaries.

And in any case, Darwin's personal opinions about race have absolutely nothing to do with the theory of evolution. It's totally irrelevant.

387 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:13:32pm

re: #377 TooDamNice

And... so? This discussion isn't happening in the 1800s. My point stands.

No it isn't. But all five of the things mentioned - antisemitism, creationism, jihadi terrorism, polygamy and slavery - still exist in the modern world. And all five of them are religiously justified, by the fundamentalist acolytes of one or more faiths.

388 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:37:19pm

re: #366 TooDamNice

You honestly feel that Creationism belongs in this list? My religion teaches that God created the Heavens and the Earth. Does that mean that my religion perverted itself?

Charles, what do you think?

I said it, I own it.

Nice strawman you tried to shove in my face considering you know NOTHING of my religious affiliations.

389 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:38:08pm

re: #386 Charles

This is such a completely silly point. Charles Darwin lived in a time when racism was everywhere. He was a product of his time. But if you care to actually look into this instead of just reading propaganda from creationist websites and regurgitating it here, you'll find that Darwin was far LESS racist than many of his contemporaries.

And in any case, Darwin's personal opinions about race have absolutely nothing to do with the theory of evolution. It's totally irrelevant.

You might wanna read this book:
Darwin's Sacred Cause: How a Hatred of Slavery Shaped Darwin's Views on Human Evolution
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Then you might wanna consider how racist Darwin's contemporary creationist biologists were. Here is a quote from a letter that Louis Agassiz wrote his mother in 1846:

[Link: www.asamst.ucsb.edu...]

"All the servants at the hotel I stayed in were men of color. I scarcely dare tell you the painful impression I received, so contrary was the sentiment they inspired in me to our ideas of the fraternity of humankind and the unique origin of our species. But, truth before all. As much as I try to feel pity at the sight of this degraded and degenerate race, as much as their fate fills me with compassion in thinking of them as really men, it is impossible for me to repress the
feeling that they are not of the same blood as us. Seeing their black
faces with their fat lips and their grimacing teeth, the wool on their
heads, their bent knees, their elongated hands, their large curved
fingernails, and above all the livid color of their palms, I could not
turn my eyes from their face in order to tell them to keep their distance,
and when they advanced that hideous hand toward my plate
1o serve me, I wished I could leave in order to eat a piece of bread
apart rather than dine with such service. What unhappiness for the white race to have tied its existence so closely to that of the negroes
in certain countries! God protect us from such contact!"

Another excerpt from that article:

Two theories of racial difference predominated in Western science in the century before Darwin; neither was egalitarian. People who believed that all humans are descended from a common origin (a position known as monogenism) attributed racial inequalities to differing rates of degeneration. The entire species had declined since the creation, monogenists thought, but some groups, due (usually) to the effects climate, had declined farther than others. Polygenists, on the other hand, believed that the races were created separately and that they had been endowed with different attributes and unequal aptitudes from the start.

Sal: Just remember that it was the impetus provided by Darwin and Mendel that prompted Watson & Crick to identify and isolate DNA, and this innovation led to the empirical genetic proof that we are all members of a single human species.

390 zimriel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:03:46pm

re: #371 toodamnice

What is supposedly "justified" and what actually is done are two different things. Just because the Old Testament spoke of slavery, that does not mean it rises to the level of jihad. In other words, FEW Jews or Christians have slaves, many more follower of Islam support or carry out jihatist (sp?) acts.

This is true. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all allow for war and slavery. But they do it differently.

Judaism says that on special occasions, God commanded Moses to fight the "Israelite jihad" to take over Canaan, during which slave-taking was permitted (Numbers 31). It also legislates how to treat slaves. But it has not commanded holy war for conquest since the First Temple, and it hasn't commanded slave raids since Moses.

Christianity has never countenanced holy war; it has the concept of JUST war. Robert Spencer's "politically-incorrect guide" argues that the Crusades were just. That's debatable on theory; in practice, as we all know, the Crusades were not performed with justice. Christianity says little about slavery; Paul says just that it's a fact so deal with it.

Suras 8 and 9 make holy struggle a duty for all time, as long as there are unsubject infidels (9) or internal dissension (8). This holy struggle takes many forms, but it is always about putting land and people under Islamic domination; its warfare component, when persuasion and trickery fail, is more narrowly defined as qital (sura 47). Islam claims 9 as the last, or almost the last, of suras and therefore supercessive of anything peaceful in the Qur'an. The great Sunni imam Ibn Mubarak quoted from the imam of another Sunni school Sufyan al-Thawri, that the monasticism of the Muslim umma is jihad. As for slaves, Islam permits it as a bonus for holy war.

I do not like theocrats and I would place creationism on the list with jihad. Creationism as evangelised in America is jihad. That is because, as Charles has been documenting thoroughly, its aim is to weaken rivals to a religion, and its methods are those of warfare (at this stage, deceit).

Creationism is not as bad as qital, though. It helps that excesses like the Spanish Inquisition and Crusades were not commanded by Christian holy texts. That is why I argued for a little perspective from some of our more excitable lizards.

391 palarson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:50:07pm

Good. Who needs them. Their wasting the money they're getting now from what I can tell by reading their "Grand Challenges" document.

392 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:11:54pm

re: #391 palarson

Good. Who needs them. Their wasting the money they're getting now from what I can tell by reading their "Grand Challenges" document.

Sour grapes. The expected response from theocrats scorned.

393 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:24:58pm

re: #391 palarson

Good. Who needs them. Their wasting the money they're getting now from what I can tell by reading their "Grand Challenges" document.

Well, since you reject most of modern science anyway, what's another 2,000 scientists and a few million dollars for Louisiana?

394 Leatherhelmet  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:44:51pm

There are far more Christian conventions than scientist conventions.

I don't think it will matter one iota to the state of Louisiana. They should have sucked it up and had the convention and railed against the law while in town. Now the science group looks kind of chickensh*t. It's not a viable boycott because they have little strength to follow it up.

395 lawrior  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:50:04pm

With the creationists gaining strength in the GOP, I think it's high time to abandon the sinking ship. If the GOP wants to be the party of creationism, they will do it without me. I can no longer vote for any of them in good conscience.

396 toodamnice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:35:40pm

re: #387 Salamantis

No it isn't. But all five of the things mentioned - antisemitism, creationism, jihadi terrorism, polygamy and slavery - still exist in the modern world. And all five of them are religiously justified, by the fundamentalist acolytes of one or more faiths.

Not mine. Not Christianity.

397 toodamnice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:37:41pm

re: #388 FurryOldGuyJeans

I said it, I own it.

Nice strawman you tried to shove in my face considering you know NOTHING of my religious affiliations.

What strawman? I was speaking of MY religion.

398 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:48:30pm

re: #394 Leatherhelmet

There are far more Christian conventions than scientist conventions.

I don't think it will matter one iota to the state of Louisiana. They should have sucked it up and had the convention and railed against the law while in town. Now the science group looks kind of chickensh*t. It's not a viable boycott because they have little strength to follow it up.

Actually, it is a viable boycott, it matters a lot (not only for its own sake but also as a precedent setter), and they are wielding their considerable financial strength by denying a state with an Disco Institute crafted law on the books their sorely needed convention funds. It would have been a self-defeating and contradictory gesture to rail against a law passed by the very state your funds were simultaneously supporting. It is not chickenshit to stand on one's principles; it is an act of moral courage.

399 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:51:33pm

re: #396 toodamnice

Not mine. Not Christianity.

Genesis Literalists represent a distinct minority of Christians, but they remain Christians nonetheless, and they not only vociferously support creationism, but press for it to be taught as empirical fact - which it is not - to other peoples' children in public high school science class. So maybe not YOUR form of Christianity, but SOME forms, yes.

400 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:58:56pm

re: #396 toodamnice

To me, you've become not much more than a meme pusher on these threads with your bait to turn this discussion into one about religion, like the DI wants. This is about science. You are GAZE worthy.

401 Ning the Merciless  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:01:44pm

I think I may send a Letter to Bobby Jindal with a string of beads from my last Mardi Gras saying that he can have these beads back and I won't be coming back to Mardi Gras again until that law is repealed. If I and say a million of my closest friends would all do that we could make quite an impression.

402 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:18:23pm

re: #400 Sharmuta

To me, you've become not much more than a meme pusher on these threads with your bait to turn this discussion into one about religion, like the DI wants. This is about science. You are GAZE worthy.

I am not a pusher or whatever. LOL. I am not a DI. I do not believe creation should be taught in public schools. I am not your enemy.

What is GAZE worthy?

403 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:20:51pm

re: #399 Salamantis

Genesis Literalists represent a distinct minority of Christians, but they remain Christians nonetheless, and they not only vociferously support creationism, but press for it to be taught as empirical fact - which it is not - to other peoples' children in public high school science class. So maybe not YOUR form of Christianity, but SOME forms, yes.

I have never heard of Genesis Literalists. Wouldn't they be Jewish? Quite a bit of the OT was superseded by the New Testament.

404 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:22:07pm

GAZE GAZE GAZE

405 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:25:24pm

re: #404 Sharmuta

LOL. An insult has no effect on one that does not now the meaning of the insult.

406 Syrah  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:32:15pm

re: #403 TooDamNice

I have never heard of Genesis Literalists. Wouldn't they be Jewish? Quite a bit of the OT was superseded by the New Testament.

Epic Fail.

407 claire  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:10:57pm

re: #173 MandyManners

Did this get corrected already upthread? The impact is much bigger than $460,000.

$2000 X 2300 conventioneers = $4.6 million.

408 Syrah  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:14:54pm

re: #406 Syrah

TDN, you could content yourself with just dinging me down, or you could make your case.

Are you willing?

409 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:10:19pm

I've just seen what 'TooDamNice' has been doing in this thread, and I've had enough.

410 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:25:39pm

re: #403 TooDamNice

I have never heard of Genesis Literalists. Wouldn't they be Jewish? Quite a bit of the OT was superseded by the New Testament.

Believe me; they exist. And they're what the Disco Institute is all about.

411 rawmuse  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:32pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

My hangover reminds me I was really plowed last night. Do I need to review my posts from last night? I don't remember getting into any fights or saying anything embarrassing.

You told me to fuck off. Don't sweat it. I was in your face.

412 Yashmak  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 7:22:20am

re: #394 Leatherhelmet

There are far more Christian conventions than scientist conventions.

I don't think it will matter one iota to the state of Louisiana. They should have sucked it up and had the convention and railed against the law while in town. Now the science group looks kind of chickensh*t. It's not a viable boycott because they have little strength to follow it up.

If Louisiana isn't interested in science, it makes sense not to have the conference there, does it not? They don't need strength. They're not trying to do anything, other that indicate that what Louisiana has signed into law threatens the science education of every public school student in the state. They accomplished that.

413 Steveo.M  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:53:13pm

Does Satterlie actually think that they will have the same amount of scientist going to Utah as they would if they went to New Orleans? I bet he lost 25% of the participants by his decision. Those scientist attend meetings just like the rest of us...50% work, 50% play.

414 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:16:40pm

re: #413 Steveo.M

Does Satterlie actually think that they will have the same amount of scientist going to Utah as they would if they went to New Orleans? I bet he lost 25% of the participants by his decision. Those scientist attend meetings just like the rest of us...50% work, 50% play.

If so, it was a sacrifice for a noble cause. But if they really wanted to minimize attendance damages, they could have scheduled it in Las Vegas instead.

No matter. The genuinely interested scientists will show up in Salt Lake City, and the conference can do without the rest.

415 CLLRusso  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:13:02am

re: #412 Yashmak

If Louisiana isn't interested in science, it makes sense not to have the conference there, does it not? They don't need strength. They're not trying to do anything, other that indicate that what Louisiana has signed into law threatens the science education of every public school student in the state. They accomplished that.

While I am a Christian conservative I certainly agree with you. These kinds of creationist promotions leave many of us between a rock and a hard place. I can't claim to be an Evangelical, though I support Israel as a holy cause and the will of God, but creationism should be confined to the church worship and study. People that are insisting on public school inclusion of spirituality and faith based dogma are doing damage to Christianity and I hope I am not naive thinking it is a minority of us.


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