Mission Statement of the Day

I’ve posted this many times in LGF comments, but with the increasing extremism of the so-called “anti-jihad movement,” it’s time to make it a front page post.

If you argue that it’s vitally necessary to deport the entire Muslim population of the United States, you are ADVOCATING MASS MURDER.

Yes, I’m shouting.

There is no way in hell that you can uproot millions of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong, and throw them all out of the country, without committing mass violence. People will resist this with all their hearts.

No decent American would stand for it. It’s an un-American, evil idea to its very core.

And not only that, it’s a stupid, empty, meaningless fantasy that will never happen. When you start ranting about it at LGF, you achieve nothing but to drag everyone here into the muck, and make us all look like extremists, fascists, and brain-dead morons. Only a very few comments like this appear at LGF, but they can tar the whole site by association.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few “anti-jihad” blogs that have no problem whatsoever with this kind of hate speech, and some that actually invite it, so if you really want to rave like a lunatic about it you can easily find somewhere that will let you. But I won’t tolerate it here, and if you post a comment advocating this reeking garbage heap of an idea, your comment will be deleted and your account will be history.

Jump to bottom

648 comments
1 zombie  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:35:32am

Check your genocidal fantasies at the door.

And then turn around and leave with them, please.

2 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:35:45am
3 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:36:01am

Yes, but these fookers always turn up.

4 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:36:21am

No decent American would stand for it. It’s an un-American, evil idea to its very core.

As a veteran who spent eight years of my life defending this country, I couldn’t agree more with this statement. Amen!

5 SixDegrees  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:36:40am

Pity such a thing has to be said at all.

But thanks for saying it. Amen.

6 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:02am

Deporting non-citizens who have committed crimes, or advocate the violent overthrow of the US is one thing; wholesale deportations are another, and are un-American,

7 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:04am

Charles and LGF.
The clear voice of reason.
Thanks for this site.
: )

8 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:07am

Too stupid to think, but not too stupid to type. That’s the problem.

9 oh_dude  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:18am

Thud.

(The other shoe falls).

10 sneezey  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:26am

when we advocate such lunacy, we end up sounding like them. And I know I would never do that to my wife…

11 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:31am

Resorting to the tactics of the enemy is not my idea of saving western ideals.

12 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:37:39am

re: #4 subsailor68

No decent American would stand for it. It’s an un-American, evil idea to its very core.

As a veteran who spent eight years of my life defending this country, I couldn’t agree more with this statement. Amen!

10 years, and ditto to the max.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:38:10am

If you advocate this, you are looking for a phyrric victory. Yes, you might prevent the jihadists from taking over America, but at the cost of everything that is best about America.

14 Racer X  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:38:26am

America needs to do a better job of assimilating others into our society. Invite them in, sit them down, and encourage them to become American.

I’m proud to be an American, and I know many others worldwide would be eager to join me.

15 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:38:27am

The day the US tries to deport all Muslims, is the day I start hiding Muslims in my house ala Anne Frank.

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:38:38am

re: #11 Sharmuta

Resorting to the tactics of the enemy is not my idea of saving western ideals.

It worked for FDR, so why not do what worked? Only a few people were innocent.

/s

17 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:38:46am

….Not to mention what it would do to the housing,convenience store ,Taxi Cab….market!
//////

18 oh_dude  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:05am

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

19 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:05am

re: #3 Peacekeeper

Yes, but these fookers always turn up.

And they’ll meet Stinky’s Great Big Banning Stick when they do.

20 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:08am

re: #5 SixDegrees

Pity such a thing has to be said at all.

But thanks for saying it, again and again and again. Amen.

FTFY

21 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:12am

I thought the 14th Amendment covered this topic rather thoroughly.

22 Eagle  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:39am

Well said Charles. And thank you for all you do.

LGF has really opened my eyes up in many ways. I was clueless about ID, the “anti-jihad movement”, and many other things you post about on a daily basis.

Please keep it up.

23 zombie  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:44am

Charles, from my observation, 99.44% of the comments on LGF are not noxious in the way you describe. But your front-page post might be misinterpreted by your leftist enemies to imply that LGF is now swamped with genocidal maniacs. Perhaps amend or add an update pointing out something like, “Only a very few comments like these appear, but they can tar the whole blog by association, and neither I nor the vast majority of other commenters will stand for it,” or some such.

24 cheesehead  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:39:46am

If people exercised a little common sense and self-control, the minuscule amount of censorship you’re enforcing, wouldn’t be necessary.

25 godfrey  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:17am

I can’t believe this actually needs saying, but that’s the day and age we live in.

Mass deportation is giving the middle finger to the Rule of Law.

Remember the Rule of Law?

26 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:22am

re: #21 unreconstructed rebel

I thought the 14th Amendment covered this topic rather thoroughly.

Enough people want to either ignore the Constitution, or change it to suit their vision of what America should be.

27 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:23am

re: #12 FurryOldGuyJeans

10 years, and ditto to the max.

I hope your ten years were as rewarding as mine were. Looking back, they were some of the best years I can remember.

28 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:31am

re: #14 Racer X

America needs to do a better job of assimilating others into our society. Invite them in, sit them down, and encourage them to become American.

I’m proud to be an American, and I know many others worldwide would be eager to join me.

The problem is, “diversity” works against assimilation, and encourages people to stand apart and wall themselves off, creating an “us vs. them” scenario.

29 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:31am

I agree with Charles’s sentiment, but I don’t get the title……..”Silly Mission Statement of the Day”

What is “silly” and where is the “mission statement”?

30 Rancher  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:36am
if you post a comment advocating this reeking garbage heap of an idea, your account will be history

Can’t make it any plainer than that, and yet watch how long it takes before some dope pushes the issue.

31 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:40:49am

To do such a thing would be to lose even if we win, because we would have defeated them at the cost of becoming just like them.

32 Racer X  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:41:05am

Sadly, many people live in America yet are not Americans. We need to make people proud to pledge allegiance.

33 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:41:10am

The same school of thought produces “They’re resisting, they must be guilty of something!” reasoning

34 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:41:16am

I don’t know how much more clear it can be than fighting fascism with fascism only leave us with fascism, but some people still can’t seem to figure that out.

They’re welcome to enjoy their fleas.

35 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #11 Sharmuta

Resorting to the tactics of the enemy is not my idea of saving western ideals.

Neither is holding hands with them going to further the cause of dissent.
Genocide or mass deportation is NOT the answer for any ideological problem.

36 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #27 subsailor68

I hope your ten years were as rewarding as mine were. Looking back, they were some of the best years I can remember.

Best, AND worst. My ex was tied up in too many of them years to be a total good thing.

37 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:41:52am

re: #14 Racer X
Bingo!We should be a multi race Culture!
Not a multi Culture ……What ever!
Become an American and enjoy!While it lasts.
////////

38 FreakyBoy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:42:18am

I rarely post anymore, but to this, I must say BRAVO CHARLES!

39 Yashmak  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:42:23am

The folks advocating this sort of thing almost invariably claim it’s to defend our nation. They seem blind to the fact that you cannot defend a nation by destroying the principles upon which it is founded.

40 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:42:32am

Another Illinois DEMOCRAT goes to prison

Former Ald. Arenda Troutman was sentenced to four years in prison today for mail and tax fraud.

Troutman admitted that for several years she had solicited cash from developers to back their projects in her South Side ward.
The sentence was handed down after Troutman tearfully told the judge that she’s not “a monster” as portrayed by prosecutors who said she accepted bribes and fraternized with gang members.

She asked for leniency so she could remain with her three sons.

“This society is real cruel to young black boys who don’t have instruction and guidance,” she said. “They’ll get swallowed up in the belly of the beast.”

U.S. District Judge Ruben Castillo said he believed that Troutman is a good mother to her sons and a good daughter to her ailing mother but described her as “a walking contradiction.”

He noted that Troutman had once worked with the late Chicago Mayor Harold Washington but wouldn’t be joining him in the local political Hall of Fame. “Instead you join the Hall of Shame of politicians who sold their offices,” Castillo said.


More….

41 abaleh  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:42:46am

re: #36 FurryOldGuyJeans

Best, AND worst. My ex was tied up in too many of them years to be a total good thing.

You would tie her up before leaving on missions?

//

42 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:42:54am

re: #38 FreakyBoy

I rarely post anymore, but to this, I must say BRAVO CHARLES!

Hey FreakyBoy!

43 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:43:04am

re: #37 reloadingisnotahobby

Bingo!We should be a multi race Culture!
Not a multi Culture ……What ever!
Become an American and enjoy!While it lasts.
////////

E pluribus unum ——> Out of many, one!

44 Racer X  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:43:10am

re: #28 Ward Cleaver

The problem is, “diversity” works against assimilation, and encourages people to stand apart and wall themselves off, creating an “us vs. them” scenario.

You are correct. Diversity is fine but many take it way to the extreme. The left just loves diversity of skin color, but diversity of thought? Forget it.

45 Kailen  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:43:22am

Since you’ve made your comment a main page post, I’ll respond to it here as well:

[…]There is no way in hell that you can uproot millions of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong, and throw them all out of the country, without committing mass violence. People will resist this with all their hearts.

And not just Muslims. Decent Americans wouldn’t stand for it.[…]/blockquote>

America’s done it before. World War II, Japanese internment camps. Brought to us by the icon of the left wing, FDR, may he rot in Hell.

With enough propaganda, people will allow anything. People will believe anything. It’s how many despot leaders have come to power. It’s how many delusional souls in this country think our previous president was a drooling retard. It’s how the current president got elected. It’s how the U.N. has become an anti-Semitic cesspool, how the world sees Israel as evil and Mahmoud Imgonnastartajihad as a victim. It’s how people believe Cuba to be a paradise with the best medical care in the world.

I could go on. But the point has been made. Welcome to the Disinformation Age.

I am NOT saying this in support of deporting Muslims. I agree that it’s a freaking horrible idea. All I’m saying is swaying public opinion and doing the despicable isn’t as hard as it should be.

46 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:43:35am

re: #41 abaleh

You would tie her up before leaving on missions?

//

Hey, he left her food and water.

/ducking

47 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:43:48am

Well, we certainly can’t deport the entire lefty/moonbat population and they are a far greater menace than American Muslims.

48 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:43:53am

re: #23 zombie

Charles, from my observation, 99.44% of the comments on LGF are not noxious in the way you describe. But your front-page post might be misinterpreted by your leftist enemies to imply that LGF is now swamped with genocidal maniacs. Perhaps amend or add an update pointing out something like, “Only a very few comments like these appear, but they can tar the whole blog by association, and neither I nor the vast majority of other commenters will stand for it,” or some such.

On the other hand, sceptics could just read the comments and look for confirmation of their interpretations. And not find it.

49 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:01am

Amen that.

50 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:07am

re: #36 FurryOldGuyJeans

Best, AND worst. My ex was tied up in too many of them years to be a total good thing.

Ouch! Sorry about the ex stuff. I went through the same thing…kind of. We split up, and the only argument we had was over the furniture.

The loser had to take it.

(No idea why we thought that crap was cool when we bought it.)

51 Cathypop  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:19am

re: #32 Racer X

Sadly, many people live in America yet are not Americans. We need to make people proud to pledge allegiance.


Sadly alot of Libs will not allow this. Not openly that is.

52 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #23 zombie

Good point - I added something like that.

53 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:28am

Unity, not diversity.

54 J.S.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:38am

Thank you, Charles.

55 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:44:49am

re: #35 notutopia

Neither is holding hands with them going to further the cause of dissent.
Genocide or mass deportation is NOT the answer for any ideological problem.

Bigotry in not attractive to most people. It turns people away from supporting counter-jihad efforts and that’s pretty counter-productive.

56 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:45:07am

re: #47 Shiplord Kirel

Well, we certainly can’t deport the entire lefty/moonbat population and they are a far greater menace than American Muslims.

Besides, who would we have to laugh at?

57 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:45:26am

re: #40 DistantThunder

Yep, we’re as busy sending these twits to prison as Stinky is in an ID thread deleting asinine comments. Problem is, it’s like playing whack-a-mole. We send one to prison, and another dozen pop up and commit crimes.

58 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:45:32am

Are newbies sharing their genocidal fantasies? I think most of us are more civilized than that.

59 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:05am

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

60 NYCHardhat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:07am

I consider the muslims that turn a blind eye to islamofacism part of the problem. I don’t wish to deport any American citizen, but this nonsense just makes me angry.

61 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:11am

re: #50 subsailor68

Ouch! Sorry about the ex stuff. I went through the same thing…kind of. We split up, and the only argument we had was over the furniture.

The loser had to take it.

(No idea why we thought that crap was cool when we bought it.)

Mine kept writing to my COs all the time complaining I wasn’t supporting her.

After I was temporary medical retired she finally up and threw me out, and tried to take EVERYTHING, even the clothes I was wearing.

62 Last Mohican  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:27am

Agreed. But no matter how much Charles fights against genocidal fantasies and right-wing fanaticism, commentators in all parts of the left-wing political spectrum continue to label him a Nazi fascist extremist. And, of course, Vlaams Belang and the Discovery Institute label him a far-left, anti-religious communist agitator.

It can’t be easy being Charles. However, he does have a very cool camera and a Kindle to play with. That’s gotta help.

63 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:44am

re: #56 Ward Cleaver

Besides, who would we have to laugh at?

I love the bumper stickers.

“Humankind-Be Both” and “Buck Fush” on the same car. Help!

64 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:47am

re: #29 DeafDog

I agree with Charles’s sentiment, but I don’t get the title……..”Silly Mission Statement of the Day”

What is “silly” and where is the “mission statement”?

I think it means that “mission statements” are silly, but that this is a mission statement anyway.

65 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:46:55am

re: #59 DeafDog

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

That’s just self defense if you own an all you can eat buffet.
/

66 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:47:06am
67 Cato  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:47:07am

The problem, it seems to me, is that we need to cull those who mean us harm from those that do not. The problem with criminal law in doing this is that it requires both bad intent and a bad act. By the time a jihadi performs a bad act, it is too late.

If a person does not desire to harm me, feel free to call America home. If you do desire my harm, we need to take you out. We need a system to accomplish this. It ain’t easy, but Obama thinking that criminal law is sufficient scares me.

68 the_flying_pig  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:47:22am

Are you okay with deporting hardcore Muslim fanatics openly advocating jihad, anti-Semitism, sharia law and Islam in America?

Just askin’. I don’t wanted the USA to be Islamized just like Britain.

69 J.D.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:47:34am

re: #40 DistantThunder

He noted that Troutman had once worked with the late Chicago Mayor Harold Washington but wouldn’t be joining him in the local political Hall of Fame.


I know the woman who chose his clothes, including for his funeral.

Not that it matters…

70 oh_dude  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:47:54am

re: #14 Racer X

Amen. That’s why people like me can’t stand the whole “cultural-awareness” bullshit that is forced down our throats every day.

It’s African-American heritage week! It’s Asian/Pacific Islander Heritage month, blah blah blah! It’s nice to know where you came from, but someone show me any evidence that having in-depth “cultural awareness” has any effect on a person’s success in this world.

Back in college, I dated a girl who was working on her degree in “Asian Studies” She wanted to do a profile on me (my Mom is Filipino and my dad is from the Ukraine). When she found out that I really didn’t know anything about Filipinos or spoke the language, she got all upset. As if it was a crime that I wasn’t fully immersed in my culture. “You have no culture!” she said.

“I was and born and raised in America. That’s my culture.” I told her. She rolled her eyes. I think we broke up like a week later.

71 Last Mohican  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #58 DistantThunder

Are newbies sharing their genocidal fantasies? I think most of us are more civilized than that.

Must be. Because anyone expressing such fantasies doesn’t make it past the newbie stage.

72 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:19am

re: #59 DeafDog

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

better hire a supertanker to be able to carry him off.

73 jpkoch  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:29am

Advocating the deportation of minorites is as American as apple pie; we have a long and glorious history of such lunacy. My late grandfather, a German immigrant from Hamburg once told me that people used to yell at him,”Go back to Prussia!” He almost did exactly that when the next year the Volkstead Act outlowed alcohol and his father’s tiny brewpub had to shutdown.

74 FreakyBoy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:42am

Hey Mr. Cleaver! I still drop by and lurk. Good see that so many here are still fighting the good fight…. (which means I skip over the evolution v. creation debates, NTTATRWT).

75 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:44am

re: #59 DeafDog

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

Definitely a mass deportation.

76 Fat Jolly Penguin  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:46am
this reeking garbage heap of an idea

In all seriousness, I’d take a reeking garbage heap any day over the mass deportation idiocy.

Thank you so much, Charles.

77 Chicago Blonde  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:46am

And that mission statement is why I want to be a Lizard.

78 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:48:55am

re: #29 DeafDog

I agree with Charles’s sentiment, but I don’t get the title……..”Silly Mission Statement of the Day”

What is “silly” and where is the “mission statement”?

Charles has a way of layering multiple meanings and ideas with his thread titles. This is one of his best IMO.

79 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:49:03am

re: #64 Dar ul Harb

btw - note the “silly” word is gone now, which was silly to start with.

80 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:49:19am

re: #71 Last Mohican

Must be. Because anyone expressing such fantasies doesn’t make it past the newbie stage.

I’m just keeping quiet until we can finally solve the damn left handed people problem once and for all.

///

81 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:49:37am

re: #68 the_flying_pig

Are you okay with deporting hardcore Muslim fanatics openly advocating jihad, anti-Semitism, sharia law and Islam in America?

Just askin’. I don’t wanted the USA to be Islamized just like Britain.

If they’re not citizens, put them on the next plane to Somalia, strapped to the bomb racks for all I care.

82 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:49:42am

re: #64 Dar ul Harb

I think it means that “mission statements” are silly, but that this is a mission statement anyway.

Yep, and it’s one small step from silly mission statements to silly leadership motivational crap.

As Iowahawk knows.

83 Jack Burton  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:49:44am

re: #68 the_flying_pig

Are you okay with deporting hardcore Muslim fanatics openly advocating jihad, anti-Semitism, sharia law and Islam in America?

Just askin’. I don’t wanted the USA to be Islamized just like Britain.

If they are US Citizens, natural born or naturalized, then “deporting” is not an option. I don’t see where “banishing” people is listed as a power of the US government in the Constitution.

84 abaleh  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:02am

re: #67 Cato

The problem, it seems to me, is that we need to cull those who mean us harm from those that do not. The problem with criminal law in doing this is that it requires both bad intent and a bad act. By the time a jihadi performs a bad act, it is too late.

If a person does not desire to harm me, feel free to call America home. If you do desire my harm, we need to take you out. We need a system to accomplish this. It ain’t easy, but Obama thinking that criminal law is sufficient scares me.

How would you determine a person’s intent?

85 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:13am

re: #68 the_flying_pig

Are you okay with deporting hardcore Muslim fanatics openly advocating jihad, anti-Semitism, sharia law and Islam in America?

Just askin’. I don’t wanted the USA to be Islamized just like Britain.

If a person advocating all those things is: A) here legally…..B) not acted on their threats…….then they have every right to shout their position. It is protection for all.

86 thefallingman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:25am
There is no way in hell that you can uproot millions of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong, and throw them all out of the country, without committing mass violence. People will resist this with all their hearts.


Plus, it makes you just as bad as the people you ostensibly claim to be fighting with this sort of tactic. It is no different than the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust, the Soviet Purges, the Cambodian Killing Fields or any other such event.

87 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:28am

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Aheem…I’m left handed!
I forgive you…/// and all!

88 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:32am

re: #77 Chicago Blonde

And that mission statement is why I want to be a Lizard.

Excellent reason and welcome. Heard you guys in Cook County just sent Troutman to prison. She earned it.

Now if only we could do the same to 4/5s of the General Assembly…

89 vxbush  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:48am

Is it just me, or is everyone experiencing deja vu today? Didn’t Charles post on this yesterday? Not that it doesn’t need to be said again. But this posting looks like a duplicate of yesterday’s.

90 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:50:50am

Thank you, Charles, for saying this. We need to be reminded from time to time of what we are capable of doing…and to fight that subhuman urge as your post describes, unlike the neo-Fascist groups in Europe who welcome it with open arms.
There’s a reason why America is reviled by the rest of the world. It isn’t necessarily because we’re the greatest economy on the planet. It’s because our forebears had the guts to leave the Old World and all the associated bullshit behind. We aren’t perfect, nor will we ever be, but the US of A is a hell of a lot better than everywhere else.

91 Kragar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:15am

re: #87 reloadingisnotahobby

Aheem…I’m left handed!
I forgive you…/// and all!

You are dead to me.

///

92 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:18am

re: #86 thefallingman

Plus, it makes you just as bad as the people you ostensibly claim to be fighting with this sort of tactic. It is no different than the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust, the Soviet Purges, the Cambodian Killing Fields or any other such event.

But the Japanese Internment Camps during WWII were good, weren’t they?

/s

93 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:18am

Yeah, I took out the word ‘silly’. It’s not silly at all.

94 blueroom127  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:20am

re: #32 Racer X

I’ve been here for almost 10 years on an artist’s Visa that I renew every few years. I’d be a proud American but I have no way of translating my being here into citizenship. I can’t even join the army.

I came here at 19 and fell in love with the US and traveled all over lower 48. I really wish I didn’t have to get married to become a citizen.

95 Bobblehead  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:30am

re: #70 oh_dude

Typical leftist elitism. “America has no class..America has no culture..blah, blah, blah…”

96 godfrey  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:38am

I am, of course, in favor of mass decantations.

97 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:51:59am

re: #70 oh_dude

So why, then, did you date her?

98 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’m just keeping quiet until we can finally solve the damn left handed people problem once and for all.

///

I see I am now a problem to you, eh? ;)

99 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:52:09am

re: #89 vxbush

Is it just me, or is everyone experiencing deja vu today? Didn’t Charles post on this yesterday? Not that it doesn’t need to be said again. But this posting looks like a duplicate of yesterday’s.

It was a comment yesterday. But it needs to be louder.

100 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:52:10am

re: #93 Charles

Yeah, I took out the word ‘silly’. It’s not silly at all.

No, it’s not silly in the least. With the way Spencer, Pamela, Gates, et.al. have gone, it’s rather serious.

101 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:52:34am

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

102 vxbush  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:52:48am

re: #99 Charles

It was a comment yesterday. But it needs to be louder.

Ah. Gotcha. Just make it loud and clear, sir. You don’t want to be misunderstood.

103 NYCHardhat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:52:53am
104 Racer X  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:02am

re: #66 Iron Fist

I’m not sure I agree with you. America already does a hell of a lot to help foreign immigrants meld into the melting pot. If anything, we try to accept people bringing their culture with them too much. I’m reminded of the pro-Illegal Immigrant rallies a couple of years ago when the Mexicans were marching in the street flying the Mexican flag and braging that they were here and we should just deal with it.

They might want to re-visit that line of thinking. mohammedan or Marxist, they need to leave that shit behind when they move here. Or go back to where they came from. Nobody’s making them move to the United States.

I agree - and that was the point I was trying to make. We invite people to come live here, but we do not encourage them to become Americans.

105 J.D.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:03am

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

Oh, that will surely stir things up.

106 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:05am

re: #93 Charles

Yeah, I took out the word ‘silly’. It’s not silly at all.

Wow, Charles CAN be wrong about something. ;)

At least you freely admit it when you are.

107 E5infantry  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:07am

“Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?”

Wouldn’t him moving screw up the magnetic north or something? I’m all for getting rid of his fat ass, but I suspect the terrestrial effects of that (poles changing, tides reacting etc) would really hurt Gaia.

108 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:15am

I did once advocate confining moonbats and hippies to reservations within our own territory; say Berkeley, Marin County and similar points that would require little alteration for the purpose, with a high security facility on Martha’s Vineyard for the hard cases. Fortunately, Stinky thought I was joking.

109 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:17am

re: #92 FurryOldGuyJeans

I live near two WW II internment camps….
Not hot property..
G-d forsaken wilderness.

110 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:29am

re: #58 DistantThunder

re: #58 DistantThunder

Are newbies sharing their genocidal fantasies? I think most of us are more civilized than that.

Perhaps, not stated “fantasies”, but there are occasional newbie postings on the front page or threads from sites that advocate readings from groups that post that kind of hate or, more commonly, distortion of facts or distorted associations. I think this is a fair warning. Do your homework first, here, on this site. Use the search function. If you don’t know if a group is maliciously infected with hate or association to hate groups, ask first, before posting.

111 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:30am

re: #101 Charles

Please don’t.

Haters should have a harder time finding each other. Make them work for it.

112 DistantThunder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:32am

RAHM’S ‘RENT’ IS JUST THE TIP OF ETHICS ICEBERG

by Dick Morris

NEWS broke last week that Rahm Emanuel, now White House chief of staff, lived rent- free for years in the home of Rep. Rosa De Lauro (D-Conn.) - and failed to disclose the gift, as congressional ethics rules mandate. But this is only the tip of Emanuel’s previously undislosed ethics problems.

One issue is the work Emanuel tossed the way of De Lauro’s husband. But the bigger one goes back to Emanuel’s days on the board of now-bankrupt mortgage giant Freddie Mac.

Emanuel is a multimillionaire, but lived for the last five years for free in the tony Capitol Hill townhouse owned by De Lauro and her husband, Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg.

and

During that time, he also served as chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee - which gave Greenberg huge polling contracts. It paid Greenberg’s firm $239,996 in 2006 and $317,775 in 2008. (Emanuel’s own campaign committee has also paid Greenberg more than $50,000 since 2004.)

To be fair, Greenberg had polling contracts with the DCCC before - but each new election cycle brings its own set of consultants. And Emanuel was certainly generous with his roommate.

Emanuel never declared the substantial gift of free rent on any of his financial-disclosure forms. He and De Lauro claim that it was just allowable “hospitality” between colleagues. Hospitality - for five years?

113 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:42am

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

that seems to me to be unneccesary….we could find them if we wanted to. By linking to them you are opening a path for the virus to spread.

114 oh_dude  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:48am

re: #97 Macker

She was pretty hot.

115 Rancher  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:51am

If they think that expelling citizens is an answer they can live with I wonder how they think they won’t be part of the next mass exodus. The whole “When they came” scenario.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

116 the_flying_pig  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:53:52am

re: #81 Shiplord Kirel

I’m referring these hardcore Muslim fanatics as being American citizens. Some American citizens who have no problem supporting these Islamist fanatics in the USA or overseas.

117 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

Charles, I don’t know if you should do that. Why not just list the names instead?

118 FreakyBoy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:54:43am

Charles:

When an offending party logs in, can you automatically redirect them to one of these sites that do condone this type of vileness?

119 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:54:44am

re: #59 DeafDog

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

I checked on that with the DoD, and was told that all C-130s are currently tasked with other missions, but there’s an old C-5 that might work. They asked for an approximate weight to be forwarded to the load master.

120 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:54:45am

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

Please do. See my #110.

121 Spartacus50  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:03am

As a new hatchling, I feel I must say Hello to everyone and its about damn time I got on here. I feel like I accomplished something for once

122 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:15am

re: #114 oh_dude

Whew. I thought you’d say something worse than that.

/frak

123 thefallingman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:22am

re: #92 FurryOldGuyJeans
If I had to type them all I’m sure the tips of my phalanges would become visible.

124 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:29am

The Porkulus show is on now. VP Biden is stubling his way through a speech.

125 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:39am

re: #121 Spartacus50

Welcome

126 J.D.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:46am

re: #124 Who Watches the Watchmen?

The Porkulus show is on now. VP Biden is stubling his way through a speech.

Thanks for the warning.

127 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:54am

re: #70 oh_dude

Amen. That’s why people like me can’t stand the whole “cultural-awareness” bullshit that is forced down our throats every day.

It’s African-American heritage week! It’s Asian/Pacific Islander Heritage month, blah blah blah! It’s nice to know where you came from, but someone show me any evidence that having in-depth “cultural awareness” has any effect on a person’s success in this world.

Back in college, I dated a girl who was working on her degree in “Asian Studies” She wanted to do a profile on me (my Mom is Filipino and my dad is from the Ukraine). When she found out that I really didn’t know anything about Filipinos or spoke the language, she got all upset. As if it was a crime that I wasn’t fully immersed in my culture. “You have no culture!” she said.

“I was and born and raised in America. That’s my culture.” I told her. She rolled her eyes. I think we broke up like a week later.

I think that’s pretty representative of multicultural thought in general. If one is in any way ‘not from here’ or a minority, he/she has a culture. If one is ‘from here’ or a member of the majority/plurality, he/she has no culture and is therefore inferior.

128 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:55am

I agree with the sentiment of the statement. The fear is that the mob mentality is part of human nature—and history shows that mob can do the most vicious things when passions go unchecked. The bravest thing any human can do is to try and stare down a mob.

After Pearl Harbor, there occurred the another gross violation of civil rights, one that ranks with slavery and the forced relocation of the Native Americans (thanks to Andrew Jackson). Thousands of American citizens not resident aliens, were deprived of the their property and liberty without due process. It was a tragedy. It was also expedient—and to some extent necessary. The two-fold rationale behind the internment camps were to “protect” the internees from “mob justice” and to round up many potential foreign agents. The concept of “protective custody” was a canard. However, some of the internees had, in fact, acted as foreign agents. This gross overkill in no way excused the wholesale deprivation of civil rights which occurred.

I feared something similar would happen after 9-11. My observations of those days is such that the WWII interments would have been unnecessary. Our modern surveillance systems enabled our police forces to find and apprehend any potential terrorist cells. As for protective custody, there have been few —though regrettably tragic—episodes of “mob justice”.

In short, there is no justification for any call for mass deportation—other than on the basis of racial or religious bigotry. Beware—it can happen if there are enough scared people out there who see a threat to their way of life. I think it will —possibly—happen in Europe first before it could ever happen here. Of course, many many things would have to go terribly wrong for such a climate to come into being. The problem is that some people will cite the calamity I listed above as an historical precedent.

129 NYCHardhat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:55:56am

re: #121 Spartacus50

As a new hatchling, I feel I must say Hello to everyone and its about damn time I got on here. I feel like I accomplished something for once

Welcome to the no spin zone./

130 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:04am

Anybody who says these things are psychos! And the “anti-jihad movement” seems to be growing in number. Disturbing indeed. Don’t these whackjobs have any sense of history? Anybody who says these things are psychos! And the “anti-jihad movement” seems to be growing in number. Disturbing indeed. Don’t these whackjobs have any sense of history? Anybody who says these things are psychos! And the “anti-jihad movement” seems to be growing in number. Disturbing indeed. Don’t these whackjobs have any sense of history? re: #15 Big Steve

The day the US tries to deport all Muslims, is the day I start hiding Muslims in my house ala Anne Frank.


Nicely said dude! I’d do the same thing!

131 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:14am

re: #107 E5infantry

“Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?”

Wouldn’t him moving screw up the magnetic north or something? I’m all for getting rid of his fat ass, but I suspect the terrestrial effects of that (poles changing, tides reacting etc) would really hurt Gaia.

We’ll have to deport Michael Moore and Rosie O’Donnel in separate directions.

132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:19am

re: #112 DistantThunder

Just imagine what would happen if these tax cheats paid up. Shit, we could afford unicorns.

133 Gretchen  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:22am

OT:

Joe Biden is on the radio. He makes me want to puke. He’s talking about light rail. He hasn’t mentioned Harry Reid’s train from LA to Vegas.

“Task force of the Middle Class?” these idiot sknow nothing about real Americans so they have to study them like bugs. God this man is an idiot.

134 the_flying_pig  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:40am

re: #85 Big Steve

People like William Ayers and the Weather Underground, you mean?

We have too many fanatics of different flavors in America and they’re American citizens.

135 midwestgak  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:48am

re: #121 Spartacus50

As a new hatchling, I feel I must say Hello to everyone and its about damn time I got on here. I feel like I accomplished something for once

Welcome newbie.

136 abaleh  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:56:54am

re: #121 Spartacus50

As a new hatchling, I feel I must say Hello to everyone and its about damn time I got on here. I feel like I accomplished something for once

As a long time lizard of two weeks, welcome aboard newb (-;

137 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:00am

re: #109 reloadingisnotahobby

I live near two WW II internment camps….
Not hot property..
G-d forsaken wilderness.

I took a long distance detour one time to specifically visit Manzanar. Would do the same thing for the same reasons with Auschwitz if I were in Poland, “never forget”.

138 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:12am

re: #120 notutopia

Please do. See my #110.

Amend.
Please JUST list them, by name. Not their website.
Don’t want to waste your money linking someone to their site.
: )

139 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:12am

re: #121 Spartacus50
Oh….. Your in for it now!
Welcome!
Make mine a Dos XXX!

140 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:20am
141 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:26am

re: #124 Who Watches the Watchmen?

stubling?

Is that what he does? Thanks for the explain. I always wondered.

142 vxbush  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:40am

re: #103 NYCHardhat

YOU WANT SILLY? I’LL GIVE YOU SILLY. YES, I’M SHOUTING TOO.

So if you go to the website that the White House has put up for tracking the stimulus, you find this breakdown of the stimulus plan:

Tax relief: $288 billion
State/local fiscal relief: $144 billion
Infrastructure/science: $111 billion
Protecting the vulnerable: $81 billion
Health care: $59 billion
Education/training: $53 billion
Energy: $43 billion
Other: $8 billion

Now, Acorn is listed under… what? Protecting the vulnerable?

143 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:41am

re: #121 Spartacus50

As a new hatchling, I feel I must say Hello to everyone and its about damn time I got on here. I feel like I accomplished something for once

You did! You made it here to LGF! Now, first round is on you!

/welcome

144 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:46am

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

Do it!

Then watch the squirming begin.

145 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:53am

Obama is standing behind Biden, looking very worried — in case Biden goes off-script, I guess. -

146 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:57:55am

re: #121 Spartacus50

As a new hatchling, I feel I must say Hello to everyone and its about damn time I got on here. I feel like I accomplished something for once

you aren’t truly one till you have been Mandy Whacked

147 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:00am

re: #121 Spartacus50

Hiya. You don’t accomplish anything until you add to the debate. Not just by logging in.

I am proof. Five damn years, nothing accomplished. Please be more relevant than I am.

:)

148 acwgusa  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:07am

I find it sad that Charles even needs to issue his statement above. It shows we have a long way to go in cleaning our own house, before we can even address the issues about problems here and abroad.

149 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:07am

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

you needn’t for my benefit I’m not going there even figuratively…the only ‘mass’ I advocate is mass freedom and liberty for those that need it or want it

150 abaleh  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:21am

re: #128 calcajun

I agree with the sentiment of the statement. The fear is that the mob mentality is part of human nature—and history shows that mob can do the most vicious things when passions go unchecked. The bravest thing any human can do is to try and stare down a mob.

After Pearl Harbor, there occurred the another gross violation of civil rights, one that ranks with slavery and the forced relocation of the Native Americans (thanks to Andrew Jackson). Thousands of American citizens not resident aliens, were deprived of the their property and liberty without due process. It was a tragedy. It was also expedient—and to some extent necessary. The two-fold rationale behind the internment camps were to “protect” the internees from “mob justice” and to round up many potential foreign agents. The concept of “protective custody” was a canard. However, some of the internees had, in fact, acted as foreign agents. This gross overkill in no way excused the wholesale deprivation of civil rights which occurred.

I feared something similar would happen after 9-11. My observations of those days is such that the WWII interments would have been unnecessary. Our modern surveillance systems enabled our police forces to find and apprehend any potential terrorist cells. As for protective custody, there have been few —though regrettably tragic—episodes of “mob justice”.

In short, there is no justification for any call for mass deportation—other than on the basis of racial or religious bigotry. Beware—it can happen if there are enough scared people out there who see a threat to their way of life. I think it will —possibly—happen in Europe first before it could ever happen here. Of course, many many things would have to go terribly wrong for such a climate to come into being. The problem is that some people will cite the calamity I listed above as an historical precedent.

Obasan is a good book about the experiences of Japanese-Canadians in internment camps during WWII.

151 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:23am

re: #116 the_flying_pig

I’m referring these hardcore Muslim fanatics as being American citizens. Some American citizens who have no problem supporting these Islamist fanatics in the USA or overseas.

As ArchangelMichael points out in #83, you can’t deport citizens.

152 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:41am

re: #131 DeafDog

We’ll have to deport Michael Moore and Rosie O’Donnel in separate directions.

Could throw the Earth off it’s axis if the landed on the same
Continent…………

153 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #142 vxbush

So if you go to the website that the White House has put up for tracking the stimulus, you find this breakdown of the stimulus plan:

Tax relief: $288 billion
State/local fiscal relief: $144 billion
Infrastructure/science: $111 billion
Protecting the vulnerable: $81 billion
Health care: $59 billion
Education/training: $53 billion
Energy: $43 billion
Other: $8 billion

Now, Acorn is listed under… what? Protecting the vulnerable?

I wonder if that “protecting the vulnerable” includes protecting the entire population of the US from attack.

154 CDRSalamander  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:52am

I have lot a few blog buddies for taking a stand like this, but it is the right stand.

The problem is with radical Islam - not Muslims.

155 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:56am

re: #112 DistantThunder

RAHM’S ‘RENT’ IS JUST THE TIP OF ETHICS ICEBERG

by Dick Morris


Rahm Doesn’t Pay property tax either.

The guy is scum, IMO.

156 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:58:57am

re: #134 the_flying_pig

People like William Ayers and the Weather Underground, you mean?

We have too many fanatics of different flavors in America and they’re American citizens.

Ayers acted on his terrorist threats……but otherwise fanatic or not, they have the same rights as the rest of us.

157 NYCHardhat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:11am

re: #142 vxbush

So if you go to the website that the White House has put up for tracking the stimulus, you find this breakdown of the stimulus plan:

Tax relief: $288 billion
State/local fiscal relief: $144 billion
Infrastructure/science: $111 billion
Protecting the vulnerable: $81 billion
Health care: $59 billion
Education/training: $53 billion
Energy: $43 billion
Other: $8 billion

Now, Acorn is listed under… what? Protecting the vulnerable?

They are not listed. They have their own slush fund from each money pile. 4 % per pile.

158 Kenneth  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:15am

Amnesty International produced this video on the 30th anniversary of the Iranian Islamic Revolution. In it, they discuss their optimism for hope & change in Iran in 1979:

“We felt we were dealing with apparently civilized people who understood human rights, the whole concept of human rights, but as so often happens when they got into power themselves, …it was horrifying… the vengefulness of these hasty trials and executions. I suppose it was a major disappointment. It’s clear they never were interested in human rights.

D’ya think?

Youtube Video

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:19am

re: #148 acwgusa

Not really. I have found myself in that crowd in a fit of pique.

Once.

160 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:40am

re: #145 reine.de.tout

Obama is standing behind Biden, looking very worried — in case Biden goes off-script, I guess. -

Obama has in hand the pot down button……Snicker!

161 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:44am

We mention haters by name often enough on this blog without linking them. I hate to draw anymore attention to them than that. They’re worthy of the fringe corners they selected for themselves.

162 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:51am

Sorry about the post that repeated itself! But I guess from time to time, things need to be repeated, as Charles is trying to say with this post. Carry on, lizards!

163 revobob  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:59:53am

re: #67 CatoI have a problem with the ‘intent’ concept too. I think that when you start imputing ‘intent’ to people you open an even bigger can of worms. It’s not hard to picture that leading to completely subjective judgements and the ability to take punitive action based on them. To me it seems a lot like the whole ‘hate crime’ concept. If someone bashes someone because they are gay, or black, or jewish I don’t really care what their motivation was- punish the action and call it good.

164 xop1  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:00:14pm

I really appreciate this statement. I really, really need this to be a site where I as a conservative can feel at home without rubbing elbows with racists, nazis and other insane people.
I want to believe that reason, not hate, will prevail.
Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

165 mean Gene  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:00:29pm

Nameste Solar owner is speaking before 0bama.
OOOOOOOOoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………………..

And he called Joe ”Bidden.”

166 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:00:39pm

re: #147 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Now that was funny! LOL

167 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:00:44pm

re: #142 vxbush

So if you go to the website that the White House has put up for tracking the stimulus, you find this breakdown of the stimulus plan:

Tax relief: $288 billion
State/local fiscal relief: $144 billion
Infrastructure/science: $111 billion
Protecting the vulnerable: $81 billion
Health care: $59 billion
Education/training: $53 billion
Energy: $43 billion
Other: $8 billion

Now, Acorn is listed under… what? Protecting the vulnerable?

Just vague enough to let the bastages Socialize us all. Can’t complain when no one knows where the money is going.

168 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:00:45pm

re: #127 eschew_obfuscation

I think that’s pretty representative of multicultural thought in general. If one is in any way ‘not from here’ or a minority, he/she has a culture. If one is ‘from here’ or a member of the majority/plurality, he/she has no culture and is therefore inferior.

I have seriously considered checking the “other” box on forms that ask for ethnic background. I could argue—quite well—that I am part of a true ethnic minority—the Acadians. My ancestors, via my paternal grandma, were forced, first, out of France and then out of Canada. Think it would work?

169 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:15pm

re: #112 DistantThunder

You can bet he has the advice of an artful accountant.

170 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:24pm

There seems to be a common theme in certain thinking that is often heard.

It is simply that old saying about “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, or variations thereof.

We see it in evolution threads, as in why be mean to ……… when we need them in the fight against …….. (something entirely different).

We see them in the politics threads when it shouldn’t matter what is said, as long as they hate Obama.

We see them in the “religion” threads when it shouldn’t matter what is said, as long as they hate Islam.

I’m sure there must be a word for it, and no doubt we may all be guilty of it from time to time, but the bottom line would seem to be that it is expedience before principle.

171 Land Shark  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:32pm

Well said, Charles. While I consider Islam to be a fundamental threat to our civilization, to deport people who’ve done nothing wrong, simply because they are Muslim, is not just un-American, it’s in-human. Just because many Muslims around the world have chosen barbarism doesn’t mean we have to chuck our values and adopt barbaric methods ourselves. We’re supposed to be civilized and better than that. DO NOT COMPROMISE AMERICAN VALUES.

I consider myself a staunch anti-jihadi, but I will never support such a genocidal policy. Like others said, it’s sad it has to be said but there you go.

172 vagabond trader  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:37pm

Ok, then can we at least deport the left loonies?


///////

173 vxbush  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:39pm

re: #157 NYCHardhat

They are not listed. They have their own slush fund from each money pile. 4 % per pile.

In fact, there is very little listed at the site. It’s pretty much a shell. Which seems appropriate, given this act is a shell game.

174 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:43pm

re: #165 mean Gene

Nameste Solar owner is speaking before 0bama.
OOOOOOOOoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………….. ……

And he called Joe ”Bidden.”

ROFLMAO! And here I thought he was Joe The Biden™!

175 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:49pm

re: #168 calcajun

I have seriously considered checking the “other” box on forms that ask for ethnic background. I could argue—quite well—that I am part of a true ethnic minority—the Acadians. My ancestors, via my paternal grandma, were forced, first, out of France and then out of Canada. Think it would work?

Try it.
Why wouldn’t it work?

176 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:01:54pm

The real danger with this kind of advocacy is not that it will lead to some future jackboot regime rounding up innocent Muslims, that cannot happen, but that crazy talk will incite Tim McVeigh clones. That very easily could happen.

177 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:01pm

re: #148 acwgusa

I find it sad that Charles even needs to issue his statement above. It shows we have a long way to go in cleaning our own house, before we can even address the issues about problems here and abroad.

If you look at the last few days postings, we do have a way to go in cleaning out the mislabeled conservative republican shaf from the good consumable grain.
But, it is long overdo. If we don’t continue this process…what is the outcome?
Forward Ho!

178 acwgusa  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:27pm

re: #170 Naso Tang

There seems to be a common theme in certain thinking that is often heard.

It is simply that old saying about “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, or variations thereof.

We see it in evolution threads, as in why be mean to ……… when we need them in the fight against …….. (something entirely different).

We see them in the politics threads when it shouldn’t matter what is said, as long as they hate Obama.

We see them in the “religion” threads when it shouldn’t matter what is said, as long as they hate Islam.

I’m sure there must be a word for it, and no doubt we may all be guilty of it from time to time, but the bottom line would seem to be that it is expedience before principle.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemies’ enemy, no more, no less.

179 stickman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:33pm

One of the very reasons I read and follow LGF is precisely because of the bright mostly articulate comments from readers and of course Charles’ sane and reasonable approach to the site. One of the main problems with presenting a conservative view these days is that we tend to get lumped in with all sorts of extreme “right” views. That can truly hurt the cause of communicating what we firmly believe is best for our country. I’m glad Charles is cracking down on such craziness .

180 bulwrk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:38pm

re: #145 reine.de.tout

Obama is standing behind Biden,


Can you see his lips moving?

181 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:42pm

re: #133 Gretchen

OT:

Joe Biden is on the radio. He’s talking about light rail.

Is that like a short rant?

182 Spartacus50  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:50pm

Thank you for the kind words. I’ve been an avid reader since the days of the Throbbing Memo (has it really been 5 years?).

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:58pm

Well, time to head off to an appointment.

Some idiot wants to see me about remodeling the kitchen of a house that he has on the market.

Have never sold one of those. They look at me like I am from Jupiter. I look at them and say, “Hey. You made the appointment.”

184 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:02:59pm

re: #172 vagabond trader

Ok, then can we at least deport the left loonies?

///////

Who would take them?///

185 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:02pm

re: #96 godfrey

Mmmmm. It is 3pm and fast approaching Happy Hour. Getting thirsty…

186 snowcrash  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:11pm

Obama is frowning during the stimulus bill t.v. coverage. Is that his getting serious face?

187 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:28pm

re: #179 stickman

Which is exactly what Bill and Hillary did when they were Co-President.

188 the_flying_pig  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:33pm

re: #156 Big Steve

And Obama have no problem with Ayers’ terrorist past and pal around with him. That is the kind of attitude some American citizens are being too tolerant of their fellow citizens’ extremist or fanatical beliefs. You cannot change a leopard’s spots just because it is only a nice-looking kitty-cat.

189 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #186 snowcrash

Obama is frowning during the stimulus bill t.v. coverage. Is that his getting serious face?

Better than his “oh” face.

190 doppelganglander  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:46pm

re: #145 reine.de.tout

Obama is standing behind Biden, looking very worried — in case Biden goes off-script, I guess. -

Does he have his hand up Biden’s back? It’s the only way to be sure.

191 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:03:47pm

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

Name the names and shame them. This should be brought out in the open and directly confronted. We cannot allow ourselves and our goals to be allied and subverted by the eurofascists that some want to ally with.

192 vagabond trader  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:03pm

re: #168 calcajun


The last census I spoke with the lady taking info in our neighborhood. Tried to get counted as a Hebrew American but she wouldn’t have any of it.

193 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:03pm

Even NRO, a blog with paid staff, has gotten burned.

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.
Ann Coulter on 9/12/2001

194 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:15pm

re: #188 the_flying_pig

And Obama have no problem with Ayers’ terrorist past and pal around with him. That is the kind of attitude some American citizens are being too tolerant of their fellow citizens’ extremist or fanatical beliefs. You cannot change a leopard’s spots just because it is only a nice-looking kitty-cat.

so what do you propose?

195 Nadnerb  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:23pm

re: #165 mean Gene

Namaste Solar. Now, isn’t that Zen? Good for this guy, but is solar technology really the backbone of American industry? I can’t believe this is happening. Obama was cringing when Slow-Joe was speaking.

196 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:29pm

re: #180 bulwrk

Obama is standing behind Biden,

Can you see his lips moving?

Obama’s lips?
Hm.
He just generally looked like he was squirming.
Mouth was turned down when I looked.
The O seriously did look stressed and nervous.

197 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:44pm

My job is greener than your job.

198 vagabond trader  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:52pm

Watching the Joe and Obama show. Yup, here comes the big green scam.

199 Macker  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:56pm

re: #190 doppelganglander

Does he have his hand up Biden’s back? It’s the only way to be sure.

Um…perhaps that might be another prominent Demo☭rat doing that?

200 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:04:58pm

re: #82 subsailor68

Yep, and it’s one small step from silly mission statements to silly leadership motivational crap.

As Iowahawk knows.

“The lazy monkey mocks the noble lion from the safety of the baobob tree — until the lion pulls out his surprise chain saw. Who’s laughing now, monkey? But it turns out the joke is on both of them, because here comes Marlin Perkins and his surprise tranquilizer darts.”
Senegalese

201 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:14pm

better a dhimmi than dead?

202 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #151 Shiplord Kirel

As ArchangelMichael points out in #83, you can’t deport citizens.

we may just have to learn to live with a very difficult situation…effective police work, a fair judicial system….I don’t want to see the US become a pseudo police state with increased ‘spying’ on our citizens anymore than is absolutely necessary to prevent terrorist crimes….radical immigration changes and mass deportations are wrong…this is my mission statement

203 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #197 Who Watches the Watchmen?

My job is greener than your job.

Does doing nothing at all count?

204 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:31pm

Here we go — it’s Barry Time!

205 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:32pm

re: #197 Who Watches the Watchmen?

My job is greener than your job.

If only ‘greener’ meant dollars, then I would be impressed…
//

206 jcw46  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:33pm

I think of Israel and the position it is in and weep for them. The “easy” solution to their problem would be to just close the gates and let the “Palestinians” starve but they cannot do this for they would gain security but lose their soul. We can be no less compassionate regardless of the provocations. The Islamicists know this, they rely upon our willingness to put out our hand and open our gates to anyone claiming friendship. This is a case where we must “conquer with kindness”.

In their hearts they must be ashamed of their countries by our friendship, mercy and justice. Why else do so many flee their own place of birth to live in Western nations?

207 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:40pm
208 DeafDog  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:05:52pm

re: #186 snowcrash

Obama is frowning during the stimulus bill t.v. coverage. Is that his getting serious face?

It’s the realization that he can’t blame the economy on GWB now.

209 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:06:02pm

re: #190 doppelganglander

Does he have his hand up Biden’s back? It’s the only way to be sure.

I don’t wanna know where that hand has to go to move Biden’s lips.

210 midwestgak  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:06:05pm

What? No teleprompter?

211 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:06:07pm

re: #175 reine.de.tout

Try it.
Why wouldn’t it work?

‘Cause all of the Scots genes in my family landed in me (which is why I like to drink and eat, but not pay for it). There aren’t many large blue-eyed Cajuns that I know of—except for a cousin or two.

212 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:06:17pm

re: #201 AuntAcid

better a dhimmi than dead?

Uh- no. Just that fascist tactics are not the solution.

213 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:06:34pm

Maybe that is why Obama wants a dedicated civilian defense force equally equipped as to the current military.

/

214 Yashmak  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:06:40pm

re: #193 Peacekeeper

Even NRO, a blog with paid staff, has gotten burned.

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.
Ann Coulter on 9/12/2001

Wow, she might as well have just started bandying about the word “Crusade” again… .I remember how I cringed when I heard Bush use that word.

215 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #172 vagabond trader

Ok, then can we at least deport the left loonies?

///////

Aww - just stick them somewhere above the arctic Circle in Alaska, without any modern facilities. Having to do physical ahrd labour for your shelter/food/warmth concentrates the mind powerfully - and there is no energy left for moonbattery.

216 VioletTiger  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:07:14pm

I think the people suggesting this stuff need to turn back the clock and think about what they are saying from another time in history. What if it was 1910 and people were suggesting we round up all of the immigrants and send ‘em back to Ellis Island? It’s no different. My grandparents came through Ellis Island looking for a better life. They brought no worldly goods, but they did bring good and honest hearts. Their contributions and those of their contemporaries added much to this society.

217 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:07:42pm

Dow nears 10-year low

iht.com

Are you feeling the love yet?

218 snowcrash  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:03pm

Kilgore Trout signs off with namaste. What does it mean?

219 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:16pm

re: #203 unreconstructed rebel

Does doing nothing at all count?

I would like to be paid to STFU.

220 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:19pm

re: #201 AuntAcid

better a dhimmi than dead?

Care to expand on that comment?

221 mean Gene  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:36pm

re: #163 revobob

(and Cato)

I think that you’re touching on one of the biggest problems with using the Law Enforcement approach to fighting terror inside the USA..

Another issue is do we thwart them or let them act…..to ”prove” their intent?

Whether it is Eco-nuts, Animal-rights-nuts or Isalamists, whether they are foreign-born or not, the conspiracy stage is where it would be ideal to catch them and stop them.
Otherwise the cost to society is too great.

But our court systems have an awful time proving conspiracy to a jury, even with phone transcripts.
The time sentenced is too short in that juries look at the ”fact” that no harm was done (yet).

222 midwestgak  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:39pm

re: #210 midwestgak

What? No teleprompter?

I take it back.

223 Fat Jolly Penguin  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:43pm

re: #218 snowcrash

Kilgore Trout signs off with namaste. What does it mean?

en.wikipedia.org

224 Big Steve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:08:53pm

Driving up the Southwest Freeway in Houston a couple of hours ago I saw a billboard with a frail crying child on it and the words, “Weep for Gaza”. Underneath was a website address. Anyone heard of this group?

225 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:06pm

re: #216 VioletTiger

Exactly. Many of us would not be here in this blessed country. I’d (maybe) be in Yugoslavia or Cuba.

226 the_flying_pig  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:19pm

re: #194 Big Steve

Make him Ayers the head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement?

;)

227 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:24pm

21:58 State Department: U.S. helping plan Durban II to try to improve text of draft (Reuters)

I wonder what their definition of help is?

228 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:34pm

re: #182 Spartacus50

Thank you for the kind words. I’ve been an avid reader since the days of the Throbbing Memo (has it really been 5 years?).

Welcome

229 doppelganglander  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:35pm

re: #209 Honorary Yooper

I don’t wanna know where that hand has to go to move Biden’s lips.

I was trying to keep it clean. It’s not like the joke was about Barney Frank.

230 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #215 yma o hyd

Aww - just stick them somewhere above the arctic Circle in Alaska, without any modern facilities. Having to do physical ahrd labour for your shelter/food/warmth concentrates the mind powerfully - and there is no energy left for moonbattery.

No need to go to that extent, just a mile off I-90 in the Cascades and they’re hopelessly lost.

231 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:57pm

“It does mark the beginning of the end.”

I don’t know if that was scripted or not, but it’s the truest thing I’ve ever heard Obama say.

232 brookly red  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:09:58pm

re: #217 Nevergiveup

Dow nears 10-year low

[Link: www.iht.com…]

Are you feeling the love yet?

AND if you figure in the current value of the Dollar, it is much lower than that.

233 acwgusa  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:10:40pm

I see the 2009 Bankrupt America Act is about to press-ganged into law.

234 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:10:45pm

re: #232 brookly red

I’m stimulated………..to leave America.

235 Chicago Blonde  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:08pm

re: #88 Honorary Yooper

Aw, thanks Yooper! Yeah, I’m glad to be here. Anti-idiocy + anti-racist = a sort of Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup of the Blogosphere.

As far as Troutman - I think it says something that hearing about Troutmans and Blogos (oh my!) doesn’t surprise me any more. Angers me, but doesn’t surprise me.

/I can’t think of a 3rd corrupt politico to put in there right now, have a cold & my snark is off…

236 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:09pm

re: #207 Iron Fist

For the duration of my life, at any rate, we have been told that trying to get them to become culturally American is Imperialism and is just about the greatest evil since leaving the toilet seat up after taking a piss. Me, I’m a believer in such “imperialism”. I don’t care where you come from, and am only interested in what you did there in extreme circumstances (I had a teacher in High School whose father had been an SS Oficer. I wouldn’t have welcomed him to the United States), as long as when you get here you blend with us. Cultural enclaves may be inevitable, but they should be the exception, rather than the rule, and they should work with, rather than against the general fabric of society.

ever been to China Town or Little Italy in NYC?…the city would not be the same without them…they are both invaluable to the richness of culture

237 doppelganglander  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:15pm

re: #225 notutopia

Exactly. Many of us would not be here in this blessed country. I’d (maybe) be in Yugoslavia or Cuba.

Most of us wouldn’t exist at all because our parents/grandparents/great-grandparents would never have met.

238 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:21pm

Did President Zero sayt that this bill had broad support from everybody, including Republicans? Not a single Republican voted for the damn thing!

239 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:23pm

The One is speaking about Porkulus.

I’m trying to eat lunch!

*HURL*

240 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:38pm

re: #168 calcajun

I have seriously considered checking the “other” box on forms that ask for ethnic background. I could argue—quite well—that I am part of a true ethnic minority—the Acadians. My ancestors, via my paternal grandma, were forced, first, out of France and then out of Canada. Think it would work?

It certainly could on a job application. I’m about as white as the paper in my printer, but I could claim to be african-american on a job application and would be legally supported as a minority/protected class.

241 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:11:54pm

re: #231 Who Watches the Watchmen?

“It does mark the beginning of the end.”

I don’t know if that was scripted or not, but it’s the truest thing I’ve ever heard Obama say.

Not able to listen…but I just got a *shudder* and the *heebly jeeblies* reading your post.
Taken out of context or not…

242 snowcrash  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:00pm

re: #223 Fat Jolly Penguin
Thanks. Interesting reading.

243 acwgusa  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:00pm

re: #238 teleskiguy

Did President Zero sayt that this bill had broad support from everybody, including Republicans? Not a single Republican voted for the damn thing!

Note a single sane Republican.

244 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:12pm

re: #236 albusteve

ever been to China Town or Little Italy in NYC?…the city would not be the same without them…they are both invaluable to the richness of culture

And little Italy is getting littler all the time?

245 DaddyG  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:17pm

Let’s keep this simple.

If you are _________ (fill in the blank) you are welcome in my country.

However, if you make plans to kill people you are welcome to be imprisoned or dead.

If you stand for the moral or religious code of your choice AND provide for the liberty of others to do the same - then you are my friend.

However, if you stand for imposing your belief system at the cost of others life, liberty or the persuit of happiness then we have problems.

Clear enough?

246 jcw46  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:28pm

re: #201 AuntAcid

better a dhimmi than dead?

re: #220 Charles

Care to expand on that comment?

Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

247 Fat Jolly Penguin  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:38pm

re: #242 snowcrash

Thanks. Interesting reading.

No problem. I still had the tab open from when I looked it up myself. :}

248 Cato  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:42pm

re: #84 abaleh

re: #163 revobob

It is a big problem, but the nature of jihadi action purposely makes it so. How many times have we heard that they hide their intent? Israel does a fantastic job in screening the passengers on its planes. We may need to learn from them. But it is a problem for any fair minded person who does not want to become a victim.

249 the_flying_pig  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:46pm

re: #204 Who Watches the Watchmen?

That would be a great catch-phrase whenever Obama is on TV.

250 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:12:59pm

re: #218 snowcrash

Kilgore Trout signs off with namaste. What does it mean?

‘The God in me greets the God in you
The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you’

or

I’m a pepper, you’re a pepper…

251 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:00pm

re: #243 acwgusa

Note a single sane Republican.

Not a single recognizable Republican.

252 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:10pm

re: #218 snowcrash

Kilgore Trout signs off with namaste. What does it mean?

I bow to you….respect

253 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:23pm

Dow -248.74 (-3.17%)

254 gregg  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:25pm

Couple of new drinks at my local cocktail lounge:

The Sully (named after Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger): Two shots of Grey Goose and a splash of water.

The Suley (named after Nadya Suleman the mother of octuplets): Made with anything you can conceive of…

255 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #235 Chicago Blonde

Heh. Been in this state for the past 29 years with the exception of a few up in the UP for college (hence the nic). Seen too much of this stuff, and it does make one very cynical about politics and politicians. At least I’m out in Will County where I can distance myself from the Strogers and Daleys just a little bit.

256 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:46pm

Sadly it all matters only up to a point. Somebody will post “shit!” and others will say Charles posted “SHIT!”, then they will say he allowed “SHIT!” to be posted, then that he only deleated it because he was caught, he didn’t do it fast enough, ad nauseam.

257 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:54pm

re: #218 snowcrash

Kilgore Trout signs off with namaste. What does it mean?


Sanskrit, Indian.
“The light in me honors the light in you”
“I bow to you”

It is an endearment.

258 Haverwilde  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:13:57pm

As Charles continues his assault on the fascist elements in our society I thought I would write something trite, and banal, but what the heck, I like doing it.

Ode to Charles

Fascists to right of us,
Fascists to left of us,
Fascists in front of us
Vile and Smarmy;

Storm’d at with rot and smell,
Boldly we ride and well,
Into the jaws of deceit,
Into the mouth of hell
Ride the Lizard army.

259 NY Nana  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:00pm

re: #249 the_flying_pig

That would be a great catch-phrase whenever Obama is on TV.

Or a warning to switch to the Cartoon Channel.

260 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:04pm

re: #227 Nevergiveup

21:58 State Department: U.S. helping plan Durban II to try to improve text of draft (Reuters)

I wonder what their definition of help is?

The State Department is driving a big bus, and Israel will be under it.

261 JoshuaPundit  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:16pm

Well said indeed, Charles.

In defeating evil, it’s vital you don’t become what you’re fighting against.

FTR, one of the most patriotic Americans I know ( and the most anti radical Islam) is an ex-marine Colonel of Turkish extraction who earned his citizenship in the military. And yes, he’s a devout Muslim who would get back in uniform and pick up the rifle in a second to defend our liberty and the Constitution.

262 notutopia  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:23pm

re: #237 doppelganglander

Most of us wouldn’t exist at all because our parents/grandparents/great-grandparents would never have met.

That’s what that (maybe) was for.
: )

263 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:26pm
264 Yashmak  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #238 teleskiguy

Did President Zero sayt that this bill had broad support from everybody, including Republicans? Not a single Republican voted for the damn thing!

Well, you have to remember he also strongly implied that the Republicans think it’s better to ‘do nothing’, ignoring the fact that they had offered up an alternative stimulus package. Obama is obviously not above a little expedient lying… normally folks who reach the Presidency have enough sckill to keep it a little less transparent though.

265 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:14:40pm

re: #238 teleskiguy

Did President Zero sayt that this bill had broad support from everybody, including Republicans? Not a single Republican voted for the damn thing!

Just three, count them, three RINOs. More Democrats voted against the bill than Republicans for it.

266 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:00pm

re: #260 Kosh’s Shadow

The State Department is driving a big bus, and Israel will be under it.

And thru all this, the Sec. of State is silent? I wonder if Obama told her before he hid her in Asia?

267 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:07pm

re: #244 Nevergiveup

And little Italy is getting littler all the time?

I don’t know…how small can it get?

268 wahabicorridor  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:15pm

YOU GO CHARLES!

269 revobob  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:20pm

re: #137 FurryOldGuyJeans

I took a long distance detour one time to specifically visit Manzanar. Would do the same thing for the same reasons with Auschwitz if I were in Poland, “never forget”.

We stopped at a little place called “The Museum of the Eastern Sierras” (IIRC) in the small town nearest Manzanar. They have a collection of correspondence between the inmates of Manzanar and many of the townpeople who provided services to the camp. Some of the friendships that were born there continued until the deaths of the people involved. I suspect that’s a very different situation than you would have found around any of the Nazi camps, even where the primary purpose was not the murder of the inmates.

270 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:21pm
271 Perpetua  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:29pm

re: #55 Sharmuta

Bigotry in not attractive to most people. It turns people away from supporting counter-jihad efforts and that’s pretty counter-productive.

Is there a difference between “anti-jihad” and “counter-jihad”? Is LGF “counter-jihad” and Gates of Vienna “anti-jihad”?

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

I would really appreciate that. I have been going to Islam in Action and did notice he let some comments like that stand. But Chris Logan seems like a nice guy and he does post interesting stories. So I would like to know the official LGF opinion on the sites I may be frequenting.

I have had a few over the line comments (on a different topic) on my own blog and been unsure when to draw the line. So I am still figuring out when it is good to leave the comment up and let (myself and) others refute it vs. when to remove the comment as unacceptable discourse.

272 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:36pm

re: #152 reloadingisnotahobby

Could throw the Earth off it’s axis if the landed on the same
Continent…………

If they put them on the poles, they might be able to get rid of those leaps seconds they have to keep adding.

273 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:40pm
274 Nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:43pm

re: #267 albusteve

I don’t know…how small can it get?

Well china town is growing at Little Italy’s expense.

275 Cathypop  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:49pm

re: #245 DaddyG

Let’s keep this simple.

If you are _________ (fill in the blank) you are welcome in my country.

However, if you make plans to kill people you are welcome to be imprisoned or dead.

If you stand for the moral or religious code of your choice AND provide for the liberty of others to do the same - then you are my friend.

However, if you stand for imposing your belief system at the cost of others life, liberty or the persuit of happiness then we have problems.

Clear enough?


Very clear and well put.

276 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:15:55pm

re: #230 jcm

No need to go to that extent, just a mile off I-90 in the Cascades and they’re hopelessly lost.

Yeah - thats too true, that is!
It seems an infallible sign for moonbats that they have no clue, not the faintest, about what to do or how to behave in rural surroundings.
They may spout off about saving-the-planet and saving whales, foxes (why not rats? they’re furry?), but they can’t even tell the difference between one tree and another in a city park.
(I bet they can’t light a fire in a fireplace either …)

277 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:16:23pm

re: #59 DeafDog

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

First, we’d have find a Sikorsky Skycrane…

278 so.cal.swede  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:16:38pm

woot! you go charles!

too many nuts trolling these blogs that prevent any meaningful discussions with their KILL AWL [bigoted word]S rethoric

279 Ford Prefect  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:16:42pm

Charles, I don’t comment much here. That being said. I have to agree with you. Anybody who spews that crap should just go away.

280 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:16:51pm

re: #271 Perpetua

No, it’s just two similar names that both get used for the same agenda.

281 NY Nana  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:17:15pm

re: #257 notutopia

It is an endearment.

Shhhh, don’t ever let Killgore know that he is a dear, as he would throw a dead trout at anyone who said it!

Yipes! I had better duck!

282 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:17:23pm

re: #265 Honorary Yooper

Just three, count them, three RINOs.


As far as I’m concerned, all Republicans, ALL REPUBLICANS in D.C. are RINOs. Have been for almost a decade.

283 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:17:43pm

re: #274 Nevergiveup

Well china town is growing at Little Italy’s expense.

I think the three blocks of LI is protected….no cars at all now I believe..I could be wrong, it’s been a coupla years since I was up there

284 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:17:48pm

re: #236 albusteve

ever been to China Town or Little Italy in NYC?…the city would not be the same without them…they are both invaluable to the richness of culture

We all love China Town (especially Big Trouble in Little China). The Chinese aren’t calling for forced conversions to Confucionism, or honor-killing their women for failing to bind their feet, or throwing people off bulidings for practicing Falun Gong (in America).

We have no Little Italy out here, but I’m trying to imagine someone successfully telling an Italian woman to submit. Failing.

You can have your culture, but you have to have the law as it stands.

285 justabill  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:18:46pm

re: #59 DeafDog

Is it ok to still advocate the forced deportation of Michael Moore?

Only if your not in Spain, then deporting any Moors would be ethnic cleansing…

286 wise man  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:19:24pm

I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m just kissing ass … but Charles, I am proud of this post and it makes me proud to be a Lizard. I don’t post much, but I view LGF as the true heritage of George Orwell, as a voice which is considered “Right wing” only because it values truth and cognitive thought - instead of empty mouthing of slogans. And your post is a true reflection of that essence.
I, for example, am a Socialist. Not Chavez and not a Communist mind you, but one who believes in the overriding importance of social values and community - over individual values. Actually,as a secular Jew, that is the most fundamental difference between Jewish and Greco-Christian value systems.
And yet, even though I believe in social values, I respect, enjoy and even cherish the true criticism which LGF makes about the shallow populism which passes for Left economics these days. And to the same extent, I am sure that if someone would insist that I be expelled from LGF for speaking out for Socialism - you would defend me.
In the same way - you correctly distinguish between shallow, stupid and evil hate of all Arabs or Muslims and Islamic terror and those who excuse terror.
Actually, as a Jew, Islam is a much more rational religion than is Christianity. That’s why according to Jewish Halacha - Muslims are God-believers and Christians are not.
But what does that matter? The minute that hard-nosed and rational criticism and satire turns into shallow racism, of any kind - one sanctions the very kind of sloganeering “thought” by the mouth instead of by the brain which LGF is here to scorn and mock.

So Charles - George Orwell is smiling on you, somewhere or other.

287 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:19:32pm

re: #284 EmmmieG

We all love China Town (especially Big Trouble in Little China). The Chinese aren’t calling for forced conversions to Confucionism, or honor-killing their women for failing to bind their feet, or throwing people off bulidings for practicing Falun Gong (in America).

We have no Little Italy out here, but I’m trying to imagine someone successfully telling an Italian woman to submit. Failing.

You can have your culture, but you have to have the law as it stands.

my post didnt imply any of that….they are just real cool enclaves

288 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:19:56pm
289 gander  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:20:08pm

Freedom of conscience is all that is needed… and the enforcement of American law without regard to special circumstance.

290 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:20:16pm

re: #246 jcw46

Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

I don’t think we understand the war we are fighting. Not a clue. We operate out of hubris, not wisdom. We look at this through Western “eyes” and apply Western solutions and logic. Eventually we will have an awakening to deal with it without destroying everything we hold dear but it will get ugly before it gets better.

291 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:20:20pm

re: #271 Perpetua

Also- if you’re interested in finding a few more hate sites, and since you’re already aware of gates of vienna, try their blog roll- for crying out loud. Why should they need any more promotion that what they give each other?

292 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:20:26pm

Regarding the fascists and the socialists, I just wanna break into song…

Well I do know why I came here tonight,
I got the feeling that something ain’t right,
I’m so scared in case I fall off my chair,
And I’m wondering if I’ll get down the stairs,
Socialists to the left of me,
Fascists to the right, here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you.

Yes I’m stuck in the middle with you,
And I’m wondering what it is I should do,
It’s so hard to keep this smile from my face,
Losing control, yeah, trolls all over the place,
Socialists to the left of me, Fascists to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Well you started out with nothing,
And you’re proud that you’re a hatchling man,
And your friends, they all come crawlin,
Slap you on the back and say,
Please…. Please…..

Trying to make some sense of it all,
But I can see that they make no sense at all,
Is it cool to go to send them out the door,
‘Cause I don’t think that I can take anymore
Socialists to the left of me, Fascists to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Well you started out with nothing,
And you’re proud that you’re a hatchling man,
And your friends, they all come crawlin,
Slap you on the back and say,
Please…. Please…..

Well I do know why I came here tonight,
I got the feeling that something ain’t right,
I’m so scared in case I fall off my chair,
And I’m wondering if I’ll get down the stairs,
Socialists to the left of me,
Fascists to the right, here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you,
Yes I’m stuck in the middle with you,
Stuck in the middle with you.

293 wiffersnapper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:21:04pm

I don’t hate muslims, just the ones that kill people because Allah tells them to.

294 ayatollah ghilmeini  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:21:56pm

Clarity. I like clarity.

295 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:23:06pm
296 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:23:14pm

re: #290 AuntAcid

So- maybe let in just a little dab-o-fascism? Something like that?

297 LynnfromNZ  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:23:30pm

“a stupid, empty, meaningless fantasy that will never happen.”

Exactly. Reminds me of those yahoos who were advocating throwing all the Turks out of Istanbul and dumping all their buildings in the sea.

298 Chicago Blonde  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:23:33pm

re: #292 Honorary Yooper

*Holding up a lighter* FREEBIRD!

True but at least we’re HERE. BBIAB, I’m going to get some echinacea tea.

299 jorline  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:24:23pm

My Grandfather and Grandmother came from Germany in the late 1920’s…thank goodness this mentality wasn’t prevalent in the 40’s and 50’s or I would be speaking German as my first language.

All I ask of any immigrant is respect my country and assimilate.

300 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:24:31pm
301 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:24:42pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

So- maybe let in just a little dab-o-fascism? Something like that?

A little dab of fascism is all they thought they’d get in Germany and Italy. They thought wrong. Once the beast’s nose is under the tent, in it comes.

302 coloradobuff  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:24:53pm

Absolutely. Mass deportation of any group of people ignores the most important differences between the individuals of that group. More specifically, decisions regarding deportation, incarceration, and so on must be made according to a particular person’s actions, specifically those that infringe another’s rights. Those actions not only include such things as direct acts of terrorism, of course, but also include support activities, such as monetary aid, logistical support, and recruitment. These are the types of actions that generally attract our ire around here, and should still be our focus, no matter how much we blame Islam for the problem. (And believe me, I consider Islam, including many of its teachings and most of its leadership, to be at fault. Thankfully, most Muslims do not view their religion the same way that the jihadis do.)

303 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:25:57pm

re: #273 ploome hineni

should we question new immigrants about any membershsip in the communist party, nazi party, or jihad orginization?

I thought we already did question immigrants about these sorts of things if and when they apply for citizenship, although not when they initially apply for visas to live here as resident aliens.

304 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:26:11pm

re: #40 DistantThunder

Another Illinois DEMOCRAT goes to prison


More….

Maybe she could send her kids to live with Obama in the White House.

305 charles_martel  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:26:33pm

Bravo, Charles, bravo!

306 jcw46  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:28:04pm

re: #246 jcw46
In case I wasn’t clear, this was a warning to AuntAcid about Charles’ innocuous question.

(I don’t have to spell it out, do I?)

307 Amer-I-Can  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:28:14pm
it’s a stupid, empty, meaningless fantasy that will never happen

But don’t most neotards live for their fantasies? They need to get real lives and just move on…

308 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:28:39pm

re: #300 Iron Fist

I’ve been to Chinatown in San Francisco, and yes, it was interesting. I got to discuss Chinese medicine with a little old shopkeeper who spoke about as much English as I do Mandarin, but we were able to communicate where I knowledge overlapped (I’ve studied a lot of TCM).

These are very much the exceptions, rather than the rule, and even here must be viewed with some suspicion. Chinese Triads or Italian Mafia, the criminal element has used the ghettoization or seperatism, or whatever to further their criminal enterprises. Much the same can be said of other ethnicities that have formed pockets of their own culture to hide in rather than “melting” into the shared fabric of American life.

There aren’t, to my knowledge, similar constructs abroad. No “Little America” where English is the only language spoken, and the natives have to be careful not to offend American values. Not even in China or Hong Kong.

And now we are faced with a culture that explicitly demands the destruction of our own. I see no reason that we should be required to allow it to take root in our society, or to encourage it to grow where it has already taken root.

I don’t either I’m simply looking for solutions and some common ground…I don’t want to be labled a fascist…and fwiw many New Yorkers love their Mob history…it’s a hobby with many of them to know all the details

309 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:28:45pm

re: #287 albusteve

my post didnt imply any of that….they are just real cool enclaves

I didn’t mean to imply that you implied. I’m just saying that those enclaves are cool because they took (hopefully) what was best about the culture and discarded the rest.

That’s what I want from other cultures—the good parts. (Before someone says it, yes, I do try to turn my back on the bad parts of my own culture.)

310 albusteve  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:33:20pm

re: #309 EmmmieG

I didn’t mean to imply that you implied. I’m just saying that those enclaves are cool because they took (hopefully) what was best about the culture and discarded the rest.

That’s what I want from other cultures—the good parts. (Before someone says it, yes, I do try to turn my back on the bad parts of my own culture.)

I was not sure…thanks for that…I’ve crisscrossed the whole country seeking out all the differences between us, all held together by the one common bond…we are truly unique in that way…China Towns are glittery examples…but I enjoy the deep Gulf regions just as much for example….I don’t visit NO to eat at Ruby Tuesdays :)

311 Ulpianus  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:33:43pm

The government’s sole purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens; law abidance is the only proper condition of this protection.

Those who speak of deporting American citizens, whatever their religion may be, who have committed no crime, have placed themselves opposite to justice and good sense.

If you object to Islamic culture as I do then let us show the flaws in it by reason. We must only use force to repel force, or else to stop an objective threat of it.

312 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:34:58pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

So- maybe let in just a little dab-o-fascism? Something like that?

I predict any future response to a jihad will be an over reaction as opposed to a measured and responsible prevention. Does any gov do the right thing at the right time? When they do finally spring into action they swing a sledge hammer.
And no, Fascist need not apply.

313 oh_dude  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:35:27pm

re: #284 EmmmieG

We all love China Town (especially Big Trouble in Little China).

“May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather…”
- Jack Burton

HA HA! Thanx for giving me the opportunity to finally post a quote from that great, but somewhat obscure movie. Classic Kurt Russel.

314 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:36:54pm
315 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:37:39pm

re: #290 AuntAcid

I don’t think we understand the war we are fighting. Not a clue. We operate out of hubris, not wisdom. We look at this through Western “eyes” and apply Western solutions and logic. Eventually we will have an awakening to deal with it without destroying everything we hold dear but it will get ugly before it gets better.

Excuse me? Who the hell are you talking to?

I started discussing these issues long before most people even knew what was going on with militant Islam, and I’ve put my ass on the line for years to try to raise people’s awareness. And for that, I’ve been smeared so badly on the internet that if you Google my name, about half of the results are slamming me and calling me some kind of vile name.

So where do you get off lecturing me?

316 S'latch  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:43:11pm

Deporting anyone just because that person is a Muslim is clearly un-American, and unjust. It is also a bad idea. It is a shame that such as notice or “Mission Statement” is necessary.

317 wiley  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:48:09pm

I just wonder what the attitude will be when the next 9/11 type event occurs on US soil. If there are a number of coordinated attacks resulting in mass deaths, and general turmoil, how does this great nation prevent knee jerk responses from the citizenry against anyone who happens to resemble the alleged perpetrators.

wiley

318 TooDamNice  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:50:12pm

Good post Charles…

319 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #315 Charles

Excuse me? Who the hell are you talking to?

I started discussing these issues long before most people even knew what was going on with militant Islam, and I’ve put my ass on the line for years to try to raise people’s awareness. And for that, I’ve been smeared so badly on the internet that if you Google my name, about half of the results are slamming me and calling me some kind of vile name.

So where do you get off lecturing me?

No lecture here, Charles. I was only trying to dispel any notion that I held any Fascist fantasies. I know that I skate on thin ice any time I go over 12 words. That said, the blame-America first crowd is now in charge and possibility that the jihadists will be able beat us into submission with our Constitution is real.

320 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:52:41pm

re: #315 Charles

Thank you, Charles, for all that you have done and continue to do. You’ve created an extraordinary site rich with information, insight, and integrity.

321 guftafs  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:53:45pm

“Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.”

322 bigredzx  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:54:04pm

This is exactly the reason I continue to read LGF. Thanks Charles.

323 Eagle  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:54:24pm

re: #290 AuntAcid

I don’t think we understand the war we are fighting. Not a clue. We operate out of hubris, not wisdom. We look at this through Western “eyes” and apply Western solutions and logic. Eventually we will have an awakening to deal with it without destroying everything we hold dear but it will get ugly before it gets better.

There are certainly people who don’t understand the danger posed by radical Islam. These same people do not understand the danger posed by fascism (in all its forms). Nor do they understand the rationale behind limited government.

I think a lot of lizards do understand the above dangers. And from the comments on this thread, they also understand how not to deal with these dangers.

See comment #13, and many others.

324 joker23  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:54:25pm

Years ago I lived in St. Louis, Missouri. While home from college over the summers I used to work as a security guard downtown. There was a nice young man that I worked with who came to the US from Somalia. I would occasionally relieve him from his post so that he could pray. He had a prayer rug, and he faced a certain direction, the whole enchilada. I was kind of interested, because it was all new to me. One night when he was done, we shot the shit for a while. He was grateful that America had sent troops to Somalia to fight the warlords. His family had fought the warlords as long as he could remember. Even after the US pulled out, his brother continued to fight. He had a cousin who came to America and drove trucks. He saved up enough money that he was able to buy a truck of his own. He then saved up enough money that he was able to buy another truck and hire another person to drive for him. Real American Dream type stuff. I had been born and raised here, so I took it all for granted. So now here was this young man. He left behind his home, his family, everything he knew. He came to America, thrilled to be here, thrilled to try to build a new life for himself like his cousin before him had done.

If I thought for a second that he would be treated poorly just because of his religion, I would have been the first in line to defend him. Fuck the haters.

325 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:55:16pm

re: #316 Lawrence Schmerel

re: #317 wiley

This is the problem I alluded to earlier. There is an unfortunate historical precedent in this country for dealing with “unwanted” peoples. Instead of absorbing and assimilating the Indian nations east of the Mississippi, the US government forced the “Civilized Tribes” to relocate to Oklahoma—because it was expedient. Then, of course, there is the forced internment of American citizens during WWII—because of wartime “expediency”.

Humans have a chilling knack for justifying the most heinous actions. I abhor the concept that it might happen again, but I know enough of studying history that it will happen given the right circumstances.

326 Land Shark  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:56:33pm

re: #317 wiley

A good question, and one I have no answer to. However, regardless of what the spokesmen for a certain Islamist organization I don’t CAIR to mention might say, there was relatively little backlash against Muslims after 9/11 in spite of the amazing horror of the attacks. Yeah, there were a few nitwits who had to act stupid, but they were isolated incidents as far as I know.

But a new, deadlier series of attacks could create a derranged knee jerk reaction in some segments of the population. Let’s hope we don’t have to find out the answer.

327 winston06  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:58:14pm

fully agreed

328 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:58:30pm

re: #321 guftafs

C’est certainment, mon ami.

329 Perpetua  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 12:59:03pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Also- if you’re interested in finding a few more hate sites, and since you’re already aware of gates of vienna, try their blog roll- for crying out loud. Why should they need any more promotion that what they give each other?

You misunderstood me. My interest is in Charles opinion of which sites are hate sites and which are acceptable information sources.

Remember, Charles had written in his comment, to which I was responding, that he was thinking of setting it out for us. At least that is how I understood his comment. I was welcoming that. I am not sure now if Charles comment was a joke. Because now I realize that he used the word link and, as you point out, linking would give the sites more exposure and on Technorati, a higher link count.

I tested your theory and popped over to Gates of Vienna and checked their blog roll. It includes Iowa Hawk and Atlas Shrugs. I had thought that those were sites that LGF readers also read. So I don’t think your theory is correct that one can look at the gates of vienna blog roll and assume the list is hate sites.

330 S'latch  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:00:48pm

re: #325 calcajun

Well, you have a point. The United States of America is becoming more Fascist.

331 Wild Knight  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:01:33pm

re: #43 DeafDog

E pluribus unum ——> Out of many, one!


Out of many more

Many is multus of which plus is the comparative.

332 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:02:04pm

re: #330 Lawrence Schmerel

Well, you know the story of the frog in the kettle? We’re not feeling the temperature rising—yet.

333 Shane  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:03:04pm

Bummer that had to be said.

The Hall Mark of our free society is the ability to do anything you want, right up to the point where you violate another person’s rights. The idea of mass deporting of people based on their religion or beliefs should repulse anyone who truly believes in our founding fathers vision of our country. This is the same type of argument at the heart of Ann Coulter’s problem. American’s just don’t do that sort of thing, we don’t believe in it.

334 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:08:51pm
335 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:09:04pm

re: #333 Shane

American’s just don’t do that sort of thing, we don’t believe in it.

No, we have done such things under the right circumstances. We are perfectly capable of committing atrocities just as any other nation is.

336 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:10:04pm

re: #333 Shane

Bummer that had to be said.

The Hall Mark of our free society is the ability to do anything you want, right up to the point where you violate another person’s rights. The idea of mass deporting of people based on their religion or beliefs should repulse anyone who truly believes in our founding fathers vision of our country. This is the same type of argument at the heart of Ann Coulter’s problem. American’s just don’t do that sort of thing, we don’t believe in it.

That should be carved in stone just above the year the country died.

337 Perpetua  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:11:11pm

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

This comment has 8 upticks. One was me because I do want to know which sites Charles thinks are hate sites. But were the other seven because it was a funny joke and he would never do that because, as Sharmata pointed out, it would give them publicity?

I didn’t mean Charles should add them to his blog roll but to a post laying it out for us who are newer to this. (Obviously, I am a relative newbie and trying to learn and a lot of the regulars find this old hat.)

338 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:13:38pm

re: #336 AuntAcid

That should be carved in stone just above the year the country died.

Were you previously registered at LGF under another username?

339 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:18:28pm

re: #337 Perpetua

If you want to know what I think about a particular blog, you can search the site for their name or URL.

I’m not going to post a black list.

340 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:19:13pm

re: #338 Charles

Were you previously registered at LGF under another username?

No sir! should I just go away? The future will present us with situations we can’t imagine. The game has changed and either we meet the challenges and survive as a culture and a country or we will exist only in the history books.

341 jcm  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #290 AuntAcid

I don’t think we understand the war we are fighting. Not a clue. We operate out of hubris, not wisdom. We look at this through Western “eyes” and apply Western solutions and logic. Eventually we will have an awakening to deal with it without destroying everything we hold dear but it will get ugly before it gets better.

This is one of the few places that does understand the nature of the threat. I’ve lived in the middle east as have other lizards, we’ve all contributed to the understand of the religion and culture behind jihadism. Mention Qutb anywhere else and you’ll get a “huh?” I’ll wager a lot of lizard have read Qutb.

You won’t find a deeper depth of understanding anywhere else.

You’re comment is however very true of Foggy Bottom.

342 SummerSong  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:20:28pm

I am proud to be associated with, if only remotely, such a fine a man as Charles Johnson.

343 Athos  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:22:03pm

re: #336 AuntAcid

That should be carved in stone just above the year the country died.

Spoken like a true fascist.

Perhaps, rather than just engage in a troll-by, how about explaining to us how sacrificing all of the morals and values that you supposedly standby, still leaves you with any morals or values that differentiate you from the enemy you wish to fight?

Your hatred has made you what you hate.

344 kynna  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:27:56pm

I think people who rant and rave advocating violence against Muslims were attracted by the disinformation campaign that has gone on about LGF. The Lizards all know what goes on here, but someone else reads about LGF and, depending where they are, it’ll be described as ‘extreme right-wing’, ‘racist’, ‘anti-Muslim’, and so on.

Which is why anyone coming here for the first time really needs to lurk for a bit and see if it’s their cup o’ tea. Like Charles said, there are sites that agree and encourage that kind of sentiment all over the internet. They’re not all that hard to find.

And then, of course, there are the Mobys and trolls who are actually trying to smear the site with their antics, and they can just stuff it. They’ll be deleted and eventually banned, anyway. And then they’ll be forgotten (but don’t count on forever, Trolls! As we saw yesterday - your greasy footprints stain. lol )

345 AuntAcid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:31:42pm

re: #343 Athos

Spoken like a true fascist.

Perhaps, rather than just engage in a troll-by, how about explaining to us how sacrificing all of the morals and values that you supposedly standby, still leaves you with any morals or values that differentiate you from the enemy you wish to fight?

Your hatred has made you what you hate.


It’s quite remarkable you can make so much out of so little.

346 flexthink  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:38:04pm

Thank you Charles Johnson. I was a liberal and even moved to Canada 20 years ago after university to be in a place where government ‘helped’ people. After a long number of years of seeing who was being ‘helped’ and how they were being ‘helped’, I noticed that in order to be liberal you had to literally turn off your brain and accept reactionary statements with knee jerk reactions. The problem I now see is that many on the right are behaving the same way. You have to check your brain and integrity at the door and ‘fall into line’. In this case, it means selling your soul to the same enemy on the right as there is on the left - anti-semitism/chauvenism, etc. Does it matter if the bigots and neanderthals are Christian or Muslim? It is the same sickness that pervades both.

Yes, you can be a conservative who thinks that the SPLC and Morris Dees are brave people who are trying to make the world a better place. You can be a person who believes in both God and evolution. You can be a conservative who believes that everybody, including gays and lesbians, deserve the same protection under the law. I pronounce as loudly as I can that bigots and reactionaries have no place in my ‘camp’. That I am both a proud Zionist, pro-democrat and believe that anybody can believe and pray and live their lives in what ever way they want as long as they respect my rights. That equal rights and opportunities are as important to white males as they are to black females. To me being conservative means THINKING and allowing others to think as well and judging a person not based on some ideological purity but on their respect for others.

347 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:38:37pm

An email from a banned creep who used the name “Kirche” here:

mass deportation is not mass murder… round up muslims, put them on planes, drop them off wherever you can land in the middle east. nobody get’s killed (by americans). islam is incompatible with the west… it’s sorta obvious, chuck.

348 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:39:56pm

re: #336 AuntAcid

That should be carved in stone just above the year the country died.

re: #219 AuntAcid

I would like to be paid to STFU.

How much?

349 So?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:41:15pm

Deportation is a ridiculous notion, but I do wish muslim organizations would encourage so-called “moderates” to rise up and march against Jihadist terrorist muslims like “moderate” muslims did against Israel a few weeks ago. This story from Britain today is an example that should make their blood boil too. How can they tolerate the hijacking of their religion?

reuters.com

I wish muslims the world over would march and denounce these animals who tried to bring down 7 British planes. I think people are frustrated when there is absolute silence from the sane muslims. That is the big problem, allowing muslims who appear in the article hijack their religion.

350 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:43:03pm

re: #273 ploome hineni

should we question new immigrants about any membershsip in the communist party, nazi party, or jihad orginization?

No, just ask them if they ever smoked pot.

351 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:44:02pm

yes, I agree that “mass deportation is not mass murder”, but this is simply stupid, because not all Muslims are radicals and by mass deportation you will make them all radicals.
it is something like we have in my country - one marginal party which calls for deportation of all Russians from Latvia to Russia.

352 ladycatnip  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:47:12pm

#347 Charles

An email from a banned creep who used the name “Kirche” here…

What makes me angry is these morons are hijacking religion, namely Christianity, to spread their vile hatred. “Kirche” means church. They apparently don’t have the cashews to admit they’re serving their father, the devil.

Cowards.

353 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:47:54pm

re: #347 Charles

An email from a banned creep who used the name “Kirche” here:

And this is the kind of thinking that put Native Americans on reservations and caused German, Italian and Japanese-American citizens to be herded into concentration camps. Isn’t it wonderful how humans can justify the most barbaric acts.

354 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:48:24pm

re: #351 SoftS

yes, I agree that “mass deportation is not mass murder”, but this is simply stupid, because not all Muslims are radicals and by mass deportation you will make them all radicals.

Did you completely miss the point I made above, or did it go over your head?

How do you think it would be possible to round up millions of people, tear them away from their lives, homes, and families, and throw them all out of the country without committing mass violence? Do you really think they’re all just going to go along quietly?

Is this a difficult point to understand?

355 So?  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:50:12pm

re: #352 ladycatnip

#347 Charles

What makes me angry is these morons are hijacking religion, namely Christianity, to spread their vile hatred. “Kirche” means church. They apparently don’t have the cashews to admit they’re serving their father, the devil.

Cowards.

They apparently don’t have the cashews to admit ….

Great line, I’ll have to remember that one. Can I use almonds too?

356 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:53:45pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Also- if you’re interested in finding a few more hate sites, and since you’re already aware of gates of vienna, try their blog roll- for crying out loud. Why should they need any more promotion that what they give each other?

If you start with the blog rolls of Atlas Shrugged, Gates of Vienna, and Brussels Journal, you should be able to follow links and blogrolls to the lions’ share of the rest of them.

357 Just Another Four-letter Word  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:54:15pm

re: #25 godfrey

I can’t believe this actually needs saying, but that’s the day and age we live in.

Mass deportation is giving the middle finger to the Rule of Law.

Remember the Rule of Law?

Geez, if we were running the rule of Law half of Congress would be in the hoosegow for corruption, sedition, larceny, or treason!

But, enough of the Democratic Party…

JAFLW

358 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:54:55pm
359 mardukhai  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:57:06pm

By the way, the largest “Muslim” community in the United States, is Iranian. Ironically, Iranian-Americans are overwhelmingly secular, anti-Islamist, and pro-Israel.

360 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:57:45pm

re: #101 Charles

I may add some links to those blogs that welcome this kind of hate speech.

I’m sure that would bring some worms out of the woodwork.

361 ladycatnip  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 1:57:48pm

#355 So?

They apparently don’t have the cashews to admit ….

Great line, I’ll have to remember that one. Can I use almonds too?

Any nut will do. Wish I could take credit for it - got it from talk show host Larry Elder.

362 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:00:17pm

re: #118 FreakyBoy

Charles:

When an offending party logs in, can you automatically redirect them to one of these sites that do condone this type of vileness?

Would be better to redirect them to the Southern Poverty Law Center :).

363 Sunlight  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:01:24pm

re: #340 AuntAcid

No sir! should I just go away? The future will present us with situations we can’t imagine. The game has changed and either we meet the challenges and survive as a culture and a country or we will exist only in the history books.

Could we start by just enforcing ordinary laws right here in the U.S.: DWI laws, incitement laws, car burning laws… no, I guess that’s too old fashioned. No I guess it’s better for all sides to set their hair on fire, claim it’s an emergency and just destroy the place from inside.

364 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:01:49pm

re: #288 buzzsawmonkey

Having worked in politics to pass a few bills—some successfully, some not—I will observe that to be successful it is necessary to make alliances on an issue-by-issue basis. There were many people whose support was welcomed by the legislative initiatives I headed for the purpose of addressing the issue at hand whom I would have gladly opposed on other issues.

Is that “expedience?” Maybe. But the old adage that politics is “the art of the possible” refers to the fact that it is, indeed, an art to get enough people behind a particular issue to make its realization in fact possible—and that one cannot do this successfully by insisting that every ally across the board conform to a top-to-bottom purity test.

I have seen the Left, in the past, relegate itself to endless splintering and irrelevance by insisting on such ideological purity. It is my hope that the discussions here, by steering clear of a number of ideological tar pits, will serve as the nucleus around which a principled conservatism can build which steers clear of the racist, fascist, and repressive sectarian elements that are eager to attach themselves to any host that presents itself. At the same time, however, I have to remind people that it can be necessary, on a single-issue basis, to occasionally ally with people whom one would in other circumstances strenuously oppose.

I don’t have a problem with that, even to the extent of supporting questionable regimes on occasion when it serves our interests. For example Musharraf versus a weak and pretend democracy which is essentially at war.

However, to the extent that we are also talking of LGF, there is a difference between political groups or representatives legitimately elected according to our system, and groups such as LGF.

In the former context we are expected to show a certain respect and recognition of others, and to make good faith effort to work together for the benefit of all groups. In such situations expediency is a requirement, since it is generally impossible to satisfy all positions, and all have equal rights.

LGF is a forum to express a certain perspective, which may possibly have influence on votes and elections in the future. As such there is no obligation here to do more than promote and defend that perspective.

365 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:02:02pm

re: #354 Charles

“mass murder” is not always “mass violence” and vice versa.
When hundreds of thousands Latvians were deported by Stalin it was not called “mass murder”. Even if this was considered a genocide by some of historians, in no historic book this event was described as “mass murder”.

366 jcw46  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:03:31pm

re: #335 calcajun
Please elucidate.

367 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:06:13pm

re: #354 Charles

Charles, you miss my point. I do not say that mass deportation is not crime, I say that mass deportation is not always mass murder.

BTW, about deportations by Stalin en.wikipedia.org

368 Render  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:07:22pm

re: #154 CDRSalamander

Nice to see you back here Sal.

AMEN,
R

369 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:08:32pm

re: #365 SoftS

“mass murder” is not always “mass violence” and vice versa.
When hundreds of thousands Latvians were deported by Stalin it was not called “mass murder”. Even if this was considered a genocide by some of historians, in no historic book this event was described as “mass murder”.

Hey, great idea. Let’s make the United States more like Stalinist Russia. There’s a terrific model to emulate.

And by the way, your clumsy attempt to minimize what Stalin’s deportations actually involved is pretty obvious. Millions of people were killed in these little purges.

And yes, I’ve also noticed you down-dinging every post about the support for fascism among “anti-jihad” bloggers.

370 jcw46  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:09:18pm

re: #366 jcw46

Ah, sorry. You already did further below that statement. Just wanted to see what YOU thought they were the instances. I believe most have grown since then. Of course there’s always the “suspicion of the stranger” ready to rear it’s ugly head. Especially in times of fear and uncertainty.

371 Sunlight  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:09:36pm

re: #367 SoftS

Charles, you miss my point. I do not say that mass deportation is not crime, I say that mass deportation is not always mass murder.

BTW, about deportations by Stalin [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

No part of our laws call for “mass deportation” as people are using it on this thread.

372 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:09:42pm

Until somebody invents a way to see into people’s hearts and pick out the evil from the good, these people are innocent until proven guilty by court, action on the battlefield, or court-martial. They are our neighbors and are free to believe as they wish while obeying the law. Deportations go against everything I stand for as an American.

Wishing somebody else would kick in doors and round up your problems in the dead of night so that you can wake up in the morning to a world without them is natural to a point. That point is about seventh grade.
Mass deportations are a frustrated person’s pipe dream. It happens when hopes and plans fail and things don’t go our way fast enough or don’t go our way at all.

The only solution to the problem of radical Islam is the slow, ugly, painful, and maddening process of:
engaging them in combat and killing them wherever and whenever we can

arresting and locking them up long enough to be useless to the movement

trying to educate their children in something better.

It isn’t the poverty or the lack of education that creates terrorists. It is the diet of hate from cradle to grave that comes from the teachers of radical Islam.

And come on…

We can’t get thousands of people onto city buses and 100 miles out of New Orleans, thanks to idiots in charge like Chocolate City Ray Nagin and the little whiney Pillsbury Doughgirl Landrieu.

To mandate moving all Muslims out of the country would be to invite these same types of idiots to be in charge of a gigantic bloody mess.

373 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:09:59pm

re: #358 mardukhai

There are Muslims like my mechanic, whose daughter dates “American” boys — he shrugs, he doesn’t really like it, but says that it’s her choice.

There are Muslims like the Afghan grocer who wants to join the US Army to fight the Taliban.

And then there are Muslims like that grocer’s brother, who is really, really, REALLY, scary.

What the heck do we with do with the scary ones? My gut wants to throw him from an airplane before he kills someone, but my brain doesn’t have a reasonable alternative.

What do we do?

There are lots of really scary people in America. And then again, there are people who just look scary because they fit an image in our minds.

There are people walking down the street with you every day whose thoughts, if you could read them, would send you scuttling for a scattergun.

On the other hand, my brother, who wouldn’t hurt a fly - literally - overheard some college kid and his girlfriend on the bus one day saying that he “looked like a serial killer”.

What is it about the scary guy you find scary? His looks? Or things he says and does?

If you think he might be up to something, you can always drop a dime on him.

I think Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter both look scary and are scary. Pat, especially when he does his whole “close the eyes and pretend to prayer-heal a woman whose knee trouble is being cured right now by the power of the Holy Spirit and please send a check to…” shtick. Ann O’Rexia, especially…hmm…well, all the time. Scary.

The public figures sooner or later expose themselves for what they are. That’s the beauty of free speech.

The anonymous potential terrorists - well, like I said, if you have suspicions, there are people you can contact. Rule of law and all that.

What we cannot have happen in this country is people disappearing overnight because someone denounced them to some unaccountable agency and they get spirited away without due process.

Just thinking out loud here. Am I making any sense?

374 Sunlight  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:10:59pm

re: #369 Charles

Hey, great idea. Let’s make the United States more like Stalinist Russia. There’s a terrific model to emulate.

And by the way, your clumsy attempt to minimize what Stalin’s deportations actually involved is pretty obvious. Millions of people were killed in these little purges.

And yes, I’ve also noticed you down-dinging every post about the support for fascism among “anti-jihad” bloggers.

The fjordman Euros are back.

375 Render  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:12:12pm

re: #350 Naso Tang

Why?

MUCH
ADO,
R

376 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:15:09pm

re: #369 Charles

heh. Wish this was the first time I had read someone using Stalin as a model of efficiency.

Boy, that Stalin could really get things done!

377 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:16:41pm

re: #376 Sifty

heh. Wish this was the first time I had read someone using Stalin as a model of efficiency.

Boy, that Stalin could really get things done!

Yeah…that was a first for me, too…and why on earth would Stalin ever be an example of what we’d want to do in our country?!

378 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:17:19pm

re: #375 Render

Hey R, was it you who linked to an Ana Vidovic video here a couple weeks back? I just wanted to thank you; she’s extraordinary.

And because she studied here in my home town, she comes here often for concerts. Mostly in small venues, since she’s not yet the superstar she’s someday going to be.

CAN’T
WAIT,
C

379 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:19:44pm

re: #365 SoftS

So mass murder is OK, as long as it’s quiet and calm. Like say in a gas chamber?

Or is mass violence OK, as long as nobody gets killed? Just a few punches and rifle butts for the cause, maybe? Just to keep them moving?

Was what Stalin did good or bad?

Excuse me while I go get my Mac truck to drive through the holes in your argument.

380 jones  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:19:45pm
it’s a stupid, empty, meaningless fantasy that will never happen.


I am not so sure about the never part. That is why we can’t ignore it.

Never is a long time.

Imagine 1909 Berlin if you said Germany would lose 2 world wars, do the Holocaust, and be broken in 2 in 36 years.

381 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:20:16pm

re: #369 Charles

When Latvians tried to equalize mass deportations by Stalin to Holocaust by Hitler, there was an outrage from Jewish community.

I am not down-dinging *every* post “about the support for fascism among “anti-jihad” bloggers”.
I am only down-dinging latests posts about Robert Spencer - your fellow “Pajamas Media” network blogger, because I think that this posts was silly.
Maybe I am wrong. Because of that (that I can be wrong) I am only down-dinging this posts and not writing any commentary to defend Spencer.

382 guftafs  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:21:00pm

re: #365 SoftS

“mass murder” is not always “mass violence” and vice versa.
When hundreds of thousands Latvians were deported by Stalin it was not called “mass murder”. Even if this was considered a genocide by some of historians, in no historic book this event was described as “mass murder”.

… and you feel it is relevant to make this distinction why? You’re okay with “mass violence”?

383 iowavette  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:24:56pm

Pretty ironic for the home of the outraged rant, LGF, to start lecturing the lizard legions. And, of course, we all know how well pragmatic and reasonable goes over with the extremists. The extremists are embedded in the masses. Options need to be reviewed and any decent SWOT would start with the extremes along with their pros and cons and work from there. Get.Over.Yourself.

384 JonQuixote  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:25:27pm

Good move, Charles. I’d like to suggest going one step further.

I’ve seen the vicious lies that the rabid leftists propagate about LGF. It goes beyond dishonesty - I think it’s a means of equivocating the off-the-rails hatred and America-subverting, jihadist-equivocating idiocy that their sites act as a magnet for, while simultaneously (as in the case of HuffPost) claiming that it’s all a gigantic right-wing conspiracy to make their sites look bad.

I think that as LGF has grown so much and get so much traffic, that you should put up a straightforward “About” section, that lays out the site’s principles, policies, etc. - and maybe even your ideological evolution, pre- to post-9/11. It’s an interesting story that should be readily-available (IMHO), particularly in the context of your principles & policies.

As much as I detest Kos, at least they’ve done this - it’s buried somewhere in its FAQ I think. At least it makes it clear (to some degree) what the site is about. HuffPost doesn’t do it; its “About” section only leads to a masthead, of who’s behind the site.

I know there’s an argument that could be made for ambiguity, and leaving it only to the generic rules you have for new hatchlings, but at this point, I think you’d do LGF, and the 99% of its commenting community, a service by having a brief, definitive statement of principles & policies, instantly-accessible.

Keep up the great work.

385 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:26:25pm

re: #383 iowavette

Pretty ironic for the home of the outraged rant, LGF, to start lecturing the lizard legions. And, of course, we all know how well pragmatic and reasonable goes over with the extremists. The extremists are embedded in the masses. Options need to be reviewed and any decent SWOT would start with the extremes along with their pros and cons and work from there. Get.Over.Yourself.

I’ll get over myself.

Right after I block your stupid ass.

OK, I’m over myself now.

386 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:26:55pm

re: #371 Sunlight

Of course - as I wrote:
re: #351 SoftS


it is something like we have in my country - one marginal party which calls for deportation of all Russians from Latvia to Russia.

This party is called “Visu Latvijai” (“All for Latvia”) and it is so marginal that have no seats in national parliament.
en.wikipedia.org

387 twincitiesgirl  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:27:11pm

I just logged in long enough to comment, so if this has already been mentioned, GMTA!

I love visiting Charles blog because of the excellent content and I enjoy his laid back style. He puts up with a lot of crap from people and I rarely have seen him get upset without cause. This is the same as visiting a friend, would you go to their house and deliberately spout off vile, hateful speech, in front of other guests? Would you want someone to embarrass you in this way? Didn’t think so, so please stop…..and if you just can’t help yourself—LEAVE!

388 Annar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:27:13pm

re: #155 DeafDog

Rahm Doesn’t Pay property tax either.

The guy is scum, IMO.

Now everyone can learn about the “Chicago way.” The whole team is now in Washington and the next four years should be interesting. Unfortunately, as bad as the scandals get you’ll only be seeing the surface but nonetheless be paying for the undertow as well.

389 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:29:12pm

re: #385 Charles

At least he didn’t call you a cannibal honco.

390 calcajun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:29:55pm

re: #366 jcw46

I’d direct to my earlier posts on this thread.
In short, slavery, the treatment of the Native Americans, the treatment of prisoners on both sides in the Civil War, the WWII internment camps.

391 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:30:11pm

re: #382 guftafs

I am not okay with “mass violence”.
But I will continue to make this distinction until mass deportations by Stalin will be recognized as Genocide by Jews and other nations.

392 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:31:32pm

Wow.

393 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:31:42pm

Okay, I’m confused…

394 Render  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:32:05pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

Yeah, that was me. I almost hope she doesn’t reach “superstar” status, if it means she loses what makes so very good right now.

I was kinda surprised Mr. Johnson didn’t say anything about her when I linked that vid…(Charles?)

HAMMER
ON,
R

395 Dag Nabbitt  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:32:44pm

re: #202 albusteve

I wouldn’t conflate immigration policy changes with mass deportations. No one’s rights are violated by not immigrating to the USA. There is no “right” to immigrate.

396 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:33:28pm

I think there seems to be a language / grammar barrier being hit at light speed here.

397 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:34:13pm

re: #379 Sifty

Please, read my comment #391

398 traderjoe9  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:36:41pm

I certainly don’t advocate the mass deportation of Muslims form the United States; even so, it would be highly unrealistic. Like Charles said, you can’t round up millions of people scattered around the country.

I just hope that we can find some solution, so we do not end up like Europe, where all major cities have seen major terrorist attacks, where honor killings are an accepted part of their culture, where “youth” (Muslims) torch cars and burn down buildings and target homosexuals and destroy synagogues; where Muslims live in complete isolation, in their self-made ghettos (in a continent that would embrace them and would welcome them in their own societies), become a large source of fundamentalists who are more than willing to seek out innocent Europeans.

All good projections indicate that in a mere 20 years, Muslims under the age of 20 will be the majority of the “youth” population in Europe. At that point, you can kiss Europe as we know it goodbye.

399 Wise Man  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:36:51pm

re: #334 ploome hineni
Not that it’s important, Ploome, but from the site “Askmoses”:

“Entering a mosque does not pose a problem, since Islam is based on a belief in the one-and-only G-d.
Entering a Church however, is problematic as Christianity is based on belief in the Trinity, a concept in which G-d is not ‘one-and-only’ but has partners as well.”

And from the ultimate Halachic authority, Maimonides, in his Letter to Ovadia the Convert:
“These Ishmaelites are not idol worshipers at all, and it has been removed from their tongues and hearts, and they worship the exalted God as a unity, as is proper….”
But as for the Christians in his interpretation of the Mishnah, he stated “You should know that the Christian nation … all of them are idolaters…”

You see, Ploome, the world and its enemies and friends has not always been the same as it is in 2009. It just shows that it is meaningless to analyze national and social problems from a Theological perspective.

400 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:37:26pm

re: #394 Render

Yeah, that was me. I almost hope she doesn’t reach “superstar” status, if it means she loses what makes so very good right now.

I was kinda surprised Mr. Johnson didn’t say anything about her when I linked that vid…(Charles?)

HAMMER
ON,
R

The world of classical guitar is too small for real damage like that. Even Segovia couldn’t always fill a hall. And that’s fine with me - smaller halls, better sound, no need for opera glasses.

In case Charles has the time, here’s one of her videos I posted late last night.

Youtube Video

401 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:38:04pm

I can’t speak for the UN, the Jews, or even myself after more than five pints, but I think most here agree that everything Stalin did was pretty fucked up and qualifies him to have a pineapple rammed in his ass thrice daily in Hell.

Does that help?

402 Edgesitter  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:39:11pm

Thanks Charles, this is an example of why I have come to trust this site and it’s free exchange of ideas, not hate.

403 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:39:40pm

I’m fascinated how this topic has bubbled up to such consideration. Personally, I’m not keen to the idea of mass deportations but understand the basis for its utterance. Never in the history of mankind has the individual been able to wreak such havoc on society as a whole. We’re not talking about a few wackos with knives or even guns who can kill a few innocents. Now, we’re faced with a filthy evil ideology that arms it adherents with the capacity to kill hundreds, thousands, and maybe even hundreds of thousands. At some point we need to act to preserve our civilization.

Now, I don’t advocate mass deportations and quite frankly I doubt that they would work. But as a society we need to be more vigilant and demand that people from other cultures who come to this country adopt the American norms. This means the Judeo-Christian philosophies that built and sustained this beloved nation. If an adherent’s nihilistic religious practices run counter to the American ideals then they must be dealt with.

I am in full support of better monitoring and surveillance of these groups. Whether they be White-Aryan Supremacists or Islamic Extremists. We need better screening of those who come to this country either legally or illegally and put the measures in place to jail or deport these individuals. But mass deportations? No.

404 baconeatingkaffir  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:41:14pm

Its like I used to tell my troops “I hate everyone equally”. However, I do hate hypocrites…. their “religion of peace” kaka de toro to start with… My wife is Muslim, although non practicing. It freaks her out too the way “islamic” people behave. I could tell you some stories about the girls with headscarves and penguin suits.. and what they have on or don’t have on under them. I dont exactly have a love of Islam but I do find that the way these people want the world to bend over backwards (no pun intended) their religion never ceases to amaze me. They want separate swimming hours, the right to blare their call to prayer, the right to beat their wives etc. and whine because their “culture” isnt accomodated. I hear all the time about how the West (US in particular) wants to wage a war against Islam and is “commiting atrocities” against muslims while they seem to be killing off 3 times as many of their fellow muslims in one day than the entire coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq do put together and plundering like there is no tomorrow. I don’t recall the last time a group of methodists organized mass hijackings and used airplanes as missiles.
ALot of the practicing muslim people like to toot their own horns. “I have to go pray” is my favorite all time excuse. I can tell you how many times I’ve had them try to pull that bullshit on me when I give them a pop quiz. While most of them would never touch a drop of alcohol but have no problem cheating on their wives or blazing up a spliff. You see, its not mentioned in the Koran nor is washing your feet in the sink or making the shops turn off the muzak because you can’t hear the prayer call.
On the other hand you do have people like my wife (who are sadly in the minority) who call for reforms and are genuinely concerned in the direcion the religion is going.
My problem with this “religion” if you can call it as such is its hyppcracy and the fact that my government won’t call them on it. It’s no big secret that the Fraudis and other muslim contries hate the west and have a “supremacy” complex similar to that of the “what parr” surpramacist folks. If you want to come to my country and integrate and give something back and contribute positively to society you are more than welcome. If you come to change it or to force me to your religion..well.. I think you may face some SEVERELY NEGATIVE results. That goes for all cultures not just Muslims.
Today I had a rather negative experience in a Doner shop here in Istanbul. A waiter tried to gyp me out of 30 bucks and I had to get the police. All the way to the station he protested ” I’m a good muslim”. I guess its ok to steal from me because I’m a foreigenr and a gavur.

405 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:42:29pm

re: #399 Wise Man

…And from the ultimate Halachic authority, Maimonides, in his Letter to Ovadia the Convert:
“These Ishmaelites are not idol worshipers at all, and it has been removed from their tongues and hearts, and they worship the exalted God as a unity, as is proper….”
But as for the Christians in his interpretation of the Mishnah, he stated “You should know that the Christian nation … all of them are idolaters…”

Franz Rosenzweig, author of “The Star of Redemption”, has a radically different take on both Islam and Christianity. I’ll go and see what he has to say about that of Maimonides, if anything.”

Back later, lacerti.

406 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:43:02pm

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Very impressive! And a babe to boot.

407 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:43:07pm

re: #403 Bubbaman

The trouble is:

Who are the monitors?

What keeps a group or person OFF the list of monitored?

Who controls the monitors?

Today’s monitored jihad mosque in Dearbornistan could be tomorrow’s Orange County Gun Club Meeting.

408 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:43:56pm

re: #401 Sifty

So you admit, what did Stalin against Latvians (and other peoples) was actual Genocide?

Just kidding, of course you admit.
But why others, other nations (Israel for example) cannot admit that this was actual Genocide?

409 Annar  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:44:35pm

Most Muslims got their religion from their parents as is the case with those that follow different faiths so the very idea of deportation would be akin for punishing children for the “crimes” of their parents — not a very American thing to do. The enemy here is the fundamental variant of this cult that must be controlled. It is reasonable to demand of Muslim leaders to affirm that civil law voids any variant of shari’a when the two conflict and to condemn all forms of violence committed and the various pogroms carried out in the name of their god.

410 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:46:24pm

re: #408 SoftS

So you admit, what did Stalin against Latvians (and other peoples) was actual Genocide?

Just kidding, of course you admit.
But why others, other nations (Israel for example) cannot admit that this was actual Genocide?

Weren’t you just arguing that mass deportations are not the same as mass murder? Now you’re admitting it was genocide?

This is the kind of crap that gives me a headache.

411 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:46:57pm

Advocating mass deportation on the basis of religion is not the same as advocating mass murder, but it is still unconstitutional, illegal and dead wrong.
Charles’ position is both principled and morally correct.

412 Render  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:48:20pm

re: #406 Charles

I saw her first! Me me me! Dibs!

/SARC,
R

413 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:48:24pm

re: #406 Charles

Very impressive! And a babe to boot.

Aye. And a very nice human being, too, according to someone I know who’s worked with her.

If I were enough of an amateur guitarist - instead of a low-level dilettante - I’d sign up for one of her master classes.

414 Ubergeek  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:49:29pm

How does one post ‘stunned silence’? Since I have no idea and yet still feel the need to express something… Amen.

One of the few times I’m okay with a zero-tolerance policy.

415 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:49:36pm

re: #409 Annar

it used to be that people took the citizenship oath seriously. It’s all right there, if I remember it correctly or they haven’t changed it.

They should hang a sign at the border:

Welcome to America
1. You are here because where you come from sucks.
2. America doesn’t suck.
3. Don’t bring any of your suck in with you.

416 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:49:58pm

re: #411 Spare O’Lake

Advocating mass deportation on the basis of religion is not the same as advocating mass murder…

Yes, it is. You cannot achieve mass deportations without mass murder.

417 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:50:06pm

Make it simple: It’s not about whose enemy you are, or whose friend you are. It’s about right and wrong. Figure out what is true and right, and don’t let yourself be moved, and don’t panic and abandon those morals.

418 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:51:01pm

re: #407 Sifty

The trouble is:

Who are the monitors?

What keeps a group or person OFF the list of monitored?

Who controls the monitors?

Today’s monitored jihad mosque in Dearbornistan could be tomorrow’s Orange County Gun Club Meeting.

This is a fundamental problem that we need to carefully iron out. Ideally, Congress would mandate a series of laws that are enforced by Justice, Homeland, ICE, etc. Now call me naive but if you believe in our form of government then it is incumbent upon them to act. Unfortunately, our few of our legislators recognize the problems and even fewer of the American people have a clue. The danger is that we’ll become (or perhaps we are already becoming) like Britain and Canada with their hate-speech laws. Personally, I think these are the most inane and impractical solutions. Like most gun laws, the hate-speech laws protect the criminals.

There are well defined precedents as to what undermining the Constitution means. It’s time to flesh these out and start putting some teeth into these provisions. As weary as I am about government, the one thing they need to do is to protect this country and its citizens.

Starting in Dearbornistan would be a good place.

419 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:53:10pm

mass deportation based on religion never works - just look at the history of Ireland.

mass deportation and ethnic cleansing of Catholics - end result: 800 year war…

and its also downright CRAZY to be talking this way - right NOW our biggest allies in the Middle East are MUSLIM Iraqis and Kurds - they friggin LOVE america…

lets keep that going..

420 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:55:19pm

re: #415 Sifty

They should hang a sign at the border:

Welcome to America
1. You are here because where you come from sucks.

Really? Every place else one might come from sucks in comparison with America? Have you ever traveled abroad? This kind of thinking is why a lot of people consider us to be arrogant, know-nothing pricks.

2. America doesn’t suck.

Tell that to someone from Hoboken?

3. Don’t bring any of your suck in with you.

Not even their delicious sausage and cheese.

Crikey. Poor America.

421 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:55:46pm

re: #411 Spare O’Lake

I think the main point is that in addition to being an evil thing, deportations would end in a bloodbath and anarchy.

1. No matter who is in charge, how it is planned and executed, or how “humane” it started, nobody goes quietly. Lives will be shattered and lost. good intentions don’t matter a bit.

2. Scratch absolutely 100% of any peace-of-mind that anyone could ever have in this country again. Until the end of this country, every political, social, racial, or religious group of every kind would have but one reason for existence, to make sure they were not the next to be carted off.


This act would turn us into a monstrous entity.

422 SoftS  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:56:00pm

re: #410 Charles

Of course, I admit.
But this only me (and my fellow Latvians).
If U.S. does not admit, then I cannot admit to you.

Ok, this is all “pins and needles”. But you started it. I only mentioned that mass violence is not *always* mass murder….

Now I better will watch latest “House,M.D.” episode.
BTW, I am one of few very pro-U.S. dude around here, because I very well know American culture. And I think that anti-U.S. hysteria in world nowadays is simply stupid.

Peace.

423 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:58:00pm

re: #416 Charles

Yes, it is. You cannot achieve mass deportations without mass murder.

charles - mass deportation is already BRITISH LAW… it was signed into law in 2003/2004 - the “Civil Contigencies Act”

i will dig up some links and quotes for you.

this isnt some fantasy folks - it is ALREADY reality in Britain. all it needs is an “emergency” and Britain will have mass deportations and concentration camps.

424 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:58:45pm

re: #416 Charles

Yes, it is. You cannot achieve mass deportations without mass murder.

Even if it could be achieved, it would still be intolerable.
I’m not trying to split hairs here, but I am thinking back to all my relatives who were slaughtered in the holocaust. If only Hitler had deported them instead of killing them…

425 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 2:59:28pm

re: #420 Cato the Elder

Why would they come and apply for citizenship here if they had it so good elsewhere?

Well, I guess they are coming here to suck on Mama America’s tit.

426 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:00:36pm

re: #425 Sifty

Why would they come and apply for citizenship here if they had it so good elsewhere?

Well, I guess they are coming here to suck on Mama America’s tit.

What. Ever.

427 Ubergeek  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:01:45pm

re: #424 Spare O’Lake

I suppose I’m setting myself up for some major corrections, but I thought that initially “undesirables” were deported up to the extent that other countries were willing to accept the deportees, which didn’t last terribly long.

428 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:01:58pm

re: #423 buzzdroid

charles - mass deportation is already BRITISH LAW… it was signed into law in 2003/2004 - the “Civil Contigencies Act”

i will dig up some links and quotes for you.

this isnt some fantasy folks - it is ALREADY reality in Britain. all it needs is an “emergency” and Britain will have mass deportations and concentration camps.

Britain is finished despite the laws they may have or not have on the books. The problem is that as a society they have lost their identity and the will to fight. Quite frankly, most Brits are interested in getting laid and bizarre social or sexual dalliances. The only people who have some toughness in their country are the ones who are taking it over, namely the Muslims.

429 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:02:29pm

The British Civil Contingencies Bill
parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk

and regarding concentration camps and mass deportations:

parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk

extract that is relevant:

Emergency regulations may make provision of any kind that could be made by Act of Parliament or by the exercise of the Royal Prerogative; in particular,regulations may -

provide for or enable the requisition or confiscation of property (with
or without compensation);

provide for or enable the destruction of property, animal life or plant
life (with or without compensation);

prohibit, or enable the prohibition of, movement to or from a specified
place;

require, or enable the requirement of, movement to or from a specified
place;

430 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:03:02pm

re: #423 buzzdroid

charles - mass deportation is already BRITISH LAW… it was signed into law in 2003/2004 - the “Civil Contigencies Act”

i will dig up some links and quotes for you.

this isnt some fantasy folks - it is ALREADY reality in Britain. all it needs is an “emergency” and Britain will have mass deportations and concentration camps.

Another reason I’m glad I don’t live in Britain. This is nothing the US will ever emulate.

431 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:04:03pm

re: #420 Cato the Elder

And after seeing a little bit of this world, I can still confidently say that we have a damn good thing going here.

And who the hell cares what a bunch of foreigners think about us?

Doing cartwheels to kiss asses will never change their minds anyway. in fact, it has got us in a lot of the trouble we are in now.

I don’t lose a second’s worth of sleep over what anyone thinks.

And remember what millions and millions of people have learned over the years:

Today’s know-nothing pricks could be your liberators next week.

432 baconeatingkaffir  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:04:35pm

I don’t know. I try to teach my students and my kids that all countries are different just as all people are different. Some are good in one way and some are bad in other ways. However, I do see America as giving people more opportunities than any other country in the world. It just chaps my ass that people come to the US and play the system yet want to give NOTHING back…. not even paying taxes. I mean I think about the Japanese American men who enlisted in the US military after Pearl Harbor despite their families being interned, I think about the Eastern European immigrants who have enlisted in the military etc etc. and then I think about how many people from the “islamic world” or who immigrate from Western Europe who would consider enlisting. Bizarre!I think I met a few people who came overfrom the UK and Ireland during my military time and a few Germans, Russians, Turks etc. but very few pakistanis, Indians etc. etc.

433 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:04:58pm

re: #430 Charles

Another reason I’m glad I don’t live in Britain. This is nothing the US will ever emulate.

now you might begin to understand why folks like me are scared as hell for the future.

we’re the canary.

dont let it Obama do the same to your great country.

434 baconeatingkaffir  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:06:15pm

re: #433 buzzdroid

Believe it or not I work with quite alot of British expats who say they feel more secure and have better job opportunities here in Turkey than back home. Insane!

435 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:07:07pm
436 DoesNotMatter  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:07:52pm

Sadly I feel to have to refute you somewhat:

Will it never happen in the US ? Quite probably.

Europe ? China for that matter ?

If the terrorist sucess rate remains at it’s comfortably absymal low, very unlikely.

But I fear that should the terrorist get one maybe two good licks in, a dirty bomb maybe or VX in a stadium, I fear that even the pretense of deporting them elsewhere - and remember that one of explanations given for trains full of jews heading east was deportation - will be gone from the mouths of these demagogues. And even more deeply I fear my feeling that they will find a willing audience then.
And not even the US is totally free of this danger, ask the indians. But far less probable for that to happen in the US.

437 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:09:56pm

re: #434 baconeatingkaffir

Believe it or not I work with quite alot of British expats who say they feel more secure and have better job opportunities here in Turkey than back home. Insane!

not surprising. turkey is quite a law abiding place and a VERY strong sense of nationalism and self-identity.

438 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:10:16pm

re: #436 DoesNotMatter

That’s not the point. The people who advocate this kind of rubbish want it to happen NOW, preemptively.

And yes, I thought it was clear I was talking about the United States. Historically, European countries don’t have as much of a problem with genocide.

439 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:10:55pm

re: #403 Bubbaman

I’m fascinated how this topic has bubbled up to such consideration. Personally, I’m not keen to the idea of mass deportations but understand the basis for its utterance. Never in the history of mankind has the individual been able to wreak such havoc on society as a whole. We’re not talking about a few wackos with knives or even guns who can kill a few innocents. Now, we’re faced with a filthy evil ideology that arms it adherents with the capacity to kill hundreds, thousands, and maybe even hundreds of thousands. At some point we need to act to preserve our civilization.

Now, I don’t advocate mass deportations and quite frankly I doubt that they would work. But as a society we need to be more vigilant and demand that people from other cultures who come to this country adopt the American norms. This means the Judeo-Christian philosophies that built and sustained this beloved nation. If an adherent’s nihilistic religious practices run counter to the American ideals then they must be dealt with.

I am in full support of better monitoring and surveillance of these groups. Whether they be White-Aryan Supremacists or Islamic Extremists. We need better screening of those who come to this country either legally or illegally and put the measures in place to jail or deport these individuals. But mass deportations? No.

American norms are not just Judeo-Christian. The US Constitution was also influenced by Greco-Roman values (and they were pagans) and does not attempt to be another book in the Torah or Bible. We are not a theocracy; we are a democracy.

We are a SECULAR nation, with religious freedom for all and religious coercion for none.

440 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:11:11pm

re: #427 Ubergeek

I suppose I’m setting myself up for some major corrections, but I thought that initially “undesirables” were deported up to the extent that other countries were willing to accept the deportees, which didn’t last terribly long.

Let’s not go there.
Suffice it to say that mass deportation based on religious affiliation is 100% wrong, regardless of whether it would result in one death or six million.

441 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:12:15pm

re: #424 Spare O’Lake

Even if it could be achieved, it would still be intolerable.
I’m not trying to split hairs here, but I am thinking back to all my relatives who were slaughtered in the holocaust. If only Hitler had deported them instead of killing them…

No you raise a valid point. Hopefully, this won’t get me banned, but if I am, so be it. Meir Kahane advocated similar issues with the Arabs in Israel. Back in the 1970’s he advised that the Arab populace should be compensated and moved out of Israel proper. Without doing so, he warned of the very things which are ensuing today.

As a society, we have to make some tough choices if we want to preserve our way of life. Again, I would fall back onto some precedents which are already in place. For example, Prince William County was tired of dealing with the crime related to gang bangers and illegal aliens so they started getting tough. Crime has Fallen by over 22% last year alone. They didn’t do anything radical other than enforcing existing immigration laws. This is a first-step model which we need to emulate and implement across this land.

442 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:14:20pm

re: #436 DoesNotMatter

Sadly I feel to have to refute you somewhat:

Will it never happen in the US ? Quite probably.

Europe ? China for that matter ?

If the terrorist sucess rate remains at it’s comfortably absymal low, very unlikely.

But I fear that should the terrorist get one maybe two good licks in, a dirty bomb maybe or VX in a stadium, I fear that even the pretense of deporting them elsewhere - and remember that one of explanations given for trains full of jews heading east was deportation - will be gone from the mouths of these demagogues. And even more deeply I fear my feeling that they will find a willing audience then.
And not even the US is totally free of this danger, ask the indians. But far less probable for that to happen in the US.

what could well turn out is that the US government is FORCED into deportation mode for the protection of Muslims against enraged Americans , armed with guns.

so in that scenario, i dont see mass deportation equatiing to mass murder - more likely it would be more of a federal protection program, with assistance to get out of the country - a kind of mega-scaled version of the Bin Laden family being escorted out of the country post 911…

this is an extreme scenario though - i’m talking about the aftermath of Jihad nukes on NYC, LA and Las Vegas… very extreme circumstances.

443 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:15:34pm

re: #439 Salamantis

American norms are not just Judeo-Christian. The US Constitution was also influenced by Greco-Roman values (and they were pagans) and does not attempt to be another book in the Torah or Bible. We are not a theocracy; we are a democracy.

We are a SECULAR nation, with religious freedom for all and religious coercion for none.

yeah - but American VALUES are by and large Judeo-Christian.
one cant ignore that.

444 Ubergeek  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:15:50pm

re: #440 Spare O’Lake

I don’t disagree. I was responding to your comment that you wish your relatives had been deported rather than slaughtered. I was just attempting to inquire on a point for clarification. Nothing more.

445 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:16:49pm

re: #443 buzzdroid

yeah - but American VALUES are by and large Judeo-Christian.
one cant ignore that.

How do you figure?
Please elaborate.

446 Sifty  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:19:26pm

re: #439 Salamantis
Incredibly awesome point.

The United States of America gives me the freedom to live my entire life by a moral code of my own creation and conscience, without labels and trappings.

She’s a beautiful thing and I love her dearly.

Still stands.

447 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:21:39pm

re: #439 Salamantis

American norms are not just Judeo-Christian. The US Constitution was also influenced by Greco-Roman values (and they were pagans) and does not attempt to be another book in the Torah or Bible. We are not a theocracy; we are a democracy.

We are a SECULAR nation, with religious freedom for all and religious coercion for none.

I would wholeheartedly disagree. We are not a Democracy but a Representative Republic. Further, we are not a Secular nation, but a country with no established religion. These are two very different things.

Frequently, I see people mistaking the meaning of Secular and interchangeably mixing it with the word non or a-religious. Again, these aren’t synonymous. To be “secular” means that one is concerned only with worldly things and has no belief in the religious, spiritual, or sacred. I would rightly argue that we, Americans are grounded in many things spiritual and have many ideals which are sacred.

We are not a “secular” nation as you put it, but one with no established religion.

448 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:22:27pm

re: #445 Irish Rose

How do you figure?
Please elaborate.

thanksgiving and the pilgrim fathers is one example. american history is rooted in judeo-christianity.

you have to bear in mind that america is where religious folks fled TO to escape persecution in europe. yes, the constitution is secular - and thats a good thing - but the values of america are very much rooted in that judaeo-christian religious history.

Denis Prager explains it a LOT better than i would - you should try his podcasts.

podcast feed here:
townhall.com

oh - and by the way , i’m atheist. but i cant ignore history.

449 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:24:42pm
450 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:25:57pm
451 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:26:12pm

re: #447 Bubbaman

I would wholeheartedly disagree. We are not a Democracy but a Representative Republic. Further, we are not a Secular nation, but a country with no established religion. These are two very different things.

Frequently, I see people mistaking the meaning of Secular and interchangeably mixing it with the word non or a-religious. Again, these aren’t synonymous. To be “secular” means that one is concerned only with worldly things and has no belief in the religious, spiritual, or sacred. I would rightly argue that we, Americans are grounded in many things spiritual and have many ideals which are sacred.

We are not a “secular” nation as you put it, but one with no established religion.

i totally agree with your statement.

The phrase “One Nation Under God” is there for a reason.

the is a world of difference between a secular state like France, and a non-established-religion state like America.

452 Purre  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:26:36pm

I am tired so I won’t be able to make a too coherent post now, but here is a link to wikipage explaining largest mass deportations that have been done. Note that it was aftermath of WW2.

As general rule I don’t think mass deportations are good thing. There may be exceptions, but at this moment I am too tired to think of what those exceptions might be, if any. I do think that deporting criminals is good thing and my country does that - after the criminal has served the sentence of course. But, that is different thing than mass deportations. Completely different thing.

453 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:27:09pm

Again with the respect to the Constitution, I would refer you to the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment and after reading that, look at the 200+ years of case law associated with that.

454 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:27:31pm
455 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:27:42pm

re: #450 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, American values are nowadays mostly mass-produced by the Chinese and on sale at Wal-Mart at cut rate.

i know. sad isnt it.

was watching “in the shadow of the moon” the other day - documentary about the Apollo moon landings.

hard to believe that it happened FORTY YEARS AGO…

456 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:28:12pm

re: #441 Bubbaman

No you raise a valid point. Hopefully, this won’t get me banned, but if I am, so be it. Meir Kahane advocated similar issues with the Arabs in Israel. Back in the 1970’s he advised that the Arab populace should be compensated and moved out of Israel proper. Without doing so, he warned of the very things which are ensuing today.

As a society, we have to make some tough choices if we want to preserve our way of life. Again, I would fall back onto some precedents which are already in place. For example, Prince William County was tired of dealing with the crime related to gang bangers and illegal aliens so they started getting tough. Crime has Fallen by over 22% last year alone. They didn’t do anything radical other than enforcing existing immigration laws. This is a first-step model which we need to emulate and implement across this land.

That was not my point at all.
Kahane was a nutjob, and even after 60 years of Arabs yapping at their heels, most Israelis still favour a two state solution, and very few advocate mass deportations.
Enforcement of immigration laws by deporting criminal elements within illegal alien communities is quite another matter. I doubt you would find many opponents of that.

457 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:29:09pm
458 2MurthasRight  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:30:20pm

re: #438 Charles

Charles: Looking back, what is your opinion of the deportation of several hundred Muslims found soon after 9/11 to be illegally within the U.S.?

459 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:31:17pm
460 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:31:25pm

re: #452 Purre

I am tired so I won’t be able to make a too coherent post now, but here is a link to wikipage explaining largest mass deportations that have been done. Note that it was aftermath of WW2.

As general rule I don’t think mass deportations are good thing. There may be exceptions, but at this moment I am too tired to think of what those exceptions might be, if any. I do think that deporting criminals is good thing and my country does that - after the criminal has served the sentence of course. But, that is different thing than mass deportations. Completely different thing.

actually, those mass deportations of the Germans post WW2 did certainly involve mass murder and mass rape at the hands of the Red Army. some estimates give a figure as high as 1 million killed.

it sure was brutal as hell..

on the other hand, the mass roundup of Japanese-Americans and their deportation to concentration camps in America during WW2 was certainly not a “mass murder” event.

i guess it depends on WHO is doing the deportation. which gets back to a post i made above - if America ever has to go down this route, it wont be “deportation”. instead it will be more like a federal protection program. in fact Muslims will probably be demanding it, in order to get the hell out of America in a post-nuked Las Vegas/LA/NYC world…

461 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:32:23pm
462 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:32:54pm

re: #443 buzzdroid

yeah - but American VALUES are by and large Judeo-Christian.
one cant ignore that.

America has taken quite a few values from Judaism and Christianity, and quite a few from the Greeks and Romans, and some from other places. But we are the same as none of those. When we began, we were sui generis - the only one of our kind - something wonderful and new, precisely due to how our brilliant and insightful founders and framers performed the wheat and chaff to combine only the cream of concepts, from whatever source they may come, into our Constitution, in order to fashion the best and most enlightened governance - for themselves and for us, their posterity - of which they could conceive.

We - or at least, the ideas and ideals around which we cohere as a nation, and which are enumerated in the Constitution - are still something wonderful. Our beloved Constitution remains the sharpest, clearest and most profound statement of government according to the principles of classic liberalism - root word liberty - in existence.

463 Mycroft  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:33:31pm

Bravo Charles!

So often the lefties brand anything that is anti-Jihad as anti-Muslim bigotry. These same people who can spot Christian extremism from a mile away seem unable to admit there might be any similar issue with Islam no matter how much violence makes the news.

But it’s important to never forget that just because some Muslims are violent, and some Muslim clerics preach hatred and death, that the vast majority of Muslims are good, decent people whose religion leads them to do good works and support their society.

The United States of America is founded on religious freedom, and that means freedom for everybody. If any individual believes their faith requires them to bring violence to another human being, then that individual needs to be condemned as an individual and not as a member of his group.

464 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:35:21pm

re: #462 Salamantis

America has taken quite a few values from Judaism and Christianity, and quite a few from the Greeks and Romans, and some from other places. But we are the same as none of those. When we began, we were sui generis - the only one of our kind - something wonderful and new, precisely due to how our brilliant and insightful founders and framers performed the wheat and chaff to combine only the cream of concepts, from whatever source they may come, into our Constitution, in order to fashion the best and most enlightened governance - for themselves and for us, their posterity - of which they could conceive.

We - or at least, the ideas and ideals around which we cohere as a nation, and which are enumerated in the Constitution - are still something wonderful. Our beloved Constitution remains the sharpest, clearest and most profound statement of government according to the principles of classic liberalism - root word liberty - in existence.

indeed. the more i read it , the more i think that it’s literally a miracle.

and considering the time it was written in, that it’s still relevant to this day is even more remarkable.

you guys are blessed. history has been very kind to america - i can certainly understand why segments of america , like the evangelicals, believe that America is blessed by God.

465 Shane  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:35:50pm

re: #336 AuntAcid

Life is a journey. War is a journey because it is part of life. Many people believe that ends justify many types of means. I would say you spend the majority of your life in the means. If they are just, so will the ends. If they are unjust, the ends will be unjust as well.

re: #335 Calcajun

I look at America as a state of mind. Freedom of just about everything. The times we violated that we were not living by our principles, we were not be the America that our founding fathers had in mind. And it was dead wrong. Sure, you could make the argument that we interned the Japenese in WWII, and we did all of them so the Japenese wouldn’t know that we had their codes. Fine, but it doesn’t excuse taking all their property and not returning it after the war. To be an American is not just to live here on this soil, but to embrace the idea of the freedom of man. But that’s my opinion, and in my America you can disagree.

466 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:37:42pm
467 Suzette  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:38:59pm

re: #430 Charles

Exactly. And Charles where would it stop? First mass deporatations of this group and then another group. Makes my head spin.
It is as you have said not the American way.
/ Thank God for that.

468 Shane  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:39:43pm

Re; #458 2Murthasright;

I know it was directed at Charles, but are you asking if we should deport illegal aliens? I’m guessing yes.

469 Purre  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:39:44pm

re: #460 buzzdroid

Those murders and rapes Red Army did were not part of that mass deportation. Rather Red Army did it to whoever got to their path, be it German, Polish, Jewish survivor from concetration camps… anyone. You can read more on that part of the war from Anthony Beevor’s Berlin 1945. Deportations themselves are not spoken of in that book.

470 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:39:49pm
471 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:39:50pm

re: #461 buzzsawmonkey

re: #459 ploome hineni

en.wikipedia.org
Nutjob is a very kind description.

472 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:40:26pm

Accusations of dhimmitude from the usual suspects in 4…3…2…

473 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:40:52pm

re: #463 Mycroft

the vast majority of Muslims are good, decent people whose religion leads them to do good works and support their society.

yeah - but the “good works” limited to helping other Muslims.
if you are a Kaffir , you dont get their help.

which is VERY UNLIKE what christian charities do - they couldnt care less what your religion is - if you are in trouble, they’ll help.

474 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:43:00pm

re: #469 Purre

Those murders and rapes Red Army did were not part of that mass deportation. Rather Red Army did it to whoever got to their path, be it German, Polish, Jewish survivor from concetration camps… anyone. You can read more on that part of the war from Anthony Beevor’s Berlin 1945. Deportations themselves are not spoken of in that book.

true - but the mass deportation certainly gave fodder to the rampaging Red Army didnt it? those lines of refugees were easy targets.

yeah - got that book too. essential reading for all lizards who are into history. its an incredible book.

475 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:43:39pm

re: #447 Bubbaman

I would wholeheartedly disagree. We are not a Democracy but a Representative Republic. Further, we are not a Secular nation, but a country with no established religion. These are two very different things.

Our democracy is not direct, but mediated true, through elected executors and representatives, and through the electoral college, but it is democracy nonetheless, in that we have the right to vote, and that vote means something. as to the term secular, see below.

Frequently, I see people mistaking the meaning of Secular and interchangeably mixing it with the word non or a-religious. Again, these aren’t synonymous. To be “secular” means that one is concerned only with worldly things and has no belief in the religious, spiritual, or sacred. I would rightly argue that we, Americans are grounded in many things spiritual and have many ideals which are sacred.

We are not a “secular” nation as you put it, but one with no established religion.

The point is that only under secular governance - one that does not concern itself with endorsing any particular spirituality - can religious freedom flower for all. Secular does not imply disbelieving in the sacred, or mandating such disbelief; it merely means that one is not ruling or legislating on the basis of sectarian religious precepts. A country with no established religion is what secular means.

I find it surpassingly sad that the RR have slandered and slimed the eminently honorable term ‘secular.’ It reminds me of what moonbats have done to the term ‘conservative.’

476 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:43:45pm

For a most interesting read, I would refer my Lizard friends to one of the more salient, modern SCOTUS rulings on the issue of separation of religion and state:

supreme.justia.com

Writing for the majority, Justice Souter opined:

“A proper respect for both the Free Exercise and the Establishment Clauses compels the State to pursue a course of ‘neutrality’ toward religion,” Committee for Public Ed. & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist, 413 U. S. 756, 792-793 (1973), favoring neither one religion over others nor religious adherents collectively over nonadherents…”

In an interesting dissenting opinion, Justice Scalia wrote:
“JUSTICE SOUTER’S steamrolling of the difference between civil authority held by a church and civil authority held by members of a church is breathtaking. To accept it, one must believe that large portions of the civil authority exercised during most of our history were unconstitutional, and that much more of it than merely the Kiryas Joel school district is unconstitutional today. The history of the populating of North America is in no small measure the story of groups of people sharing a common religious and cultural heritage striking out to form their own communities. See, e. g., W. Sweet, The Story of Religion in America 9 (1950). It is preposterous to suggest that the civil institutions of these communities, separate from their churches, were constitutionally suspect. And if they were, surely JUSTICE SOUTER cannot mean that the inclusion of one or two nonbelievers in the community would have been enough to eliminate the constitutional vice. If the conferral of governmental power upon a religious institution as such (rather than upon American citizens who belong to the religious institution) is not the test of Grendel’s Den invalidity, there is no reason why giving power to a body that is overwhelmingly dominated by the members of one sect would not suffice to invoke the Establishment Clause. That might have made the entire States of Utah and New Mexico unconstitutional at the time of their admission to the Union,l and would undoubtedly make many units of local government unconstitutional today…”

“When a legislature acts to accommodate religion, particularly a minority sect, “it follows the best of our traditions.” Zorach, supra, at 314. The Constitution itself contains an accommodation of sorts. Article VI, cl. 3, prescribes that executive, legislative, and judicial officers of the Federal and State Governments shall bind themselves to support the Constitution “by Oath or Affirmation.” Although members of the most populous religions found no difficulty in swearing an oath to God, Quakers, Moravians, and Mennonites refused to take oaths based on Matthew 5:34’s injunction “swear not at all.” The option of affirmation was added to accommodate these minority religions and enable their members to serve in government. See 1 A. Stokes, Church and State in The United States 524-527 (1950). Congress, from its earliest sessions, passed laws accommodating religion by refunding duties paid by specific churches upon the importation of plates for the printing of Bibles, see 6 Stat. 116 (1813), vestments, 6 Stat. 346 (1816), and bells, 6 Stat. 675 (1836). Congress also exempted church property from the tax assessments it levied on residents of the District of Columbia; and all 50 States have had similar laws. See Walz, supra, at 676-678.”

Now, I’m pulling things out of context, and I urge you to read the entire case as well as brush up on case law.


This does not mean that we are a secular nation by any standard.

477 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:44:00pm
478 Dag Nabbitt  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:44:44pm

re: #421 Sifty

No matter who is in charge, how it is planned and executed, or how “humane” it started, nobody goes quietly. Lives will be shattered and lost. good intentions don’t matter a bit.

Actually, a lot of people do go quietly. In 2007, DHS reported 319,382 deportations and 891,390 other removals. DHS Stats

Now even these very large numbers do not approach those needed under any “deport ‘em all” fantasy. They do, however, show that we need not dismiss out-of-hand the use of legal, constitutional tools, including immigration enforcement measures and policy changes—to limit the reach of Jihad into our homeland

479 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:44:53pm

re: #473 buzzdroid

yeah - but the “good works” limited to helping other Muslims.
if you are a Kaffir , you dont get their help.

That’s a bit of a blanket statement, don’t you think?
Are you telling me that there are Muslims living in the US who do not conribute to charitable causes like the American Red Cross, or perform community service work?

I don’t believe that, and I don’t think that you really do either.

480 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:46:03pm

re: #479 Irish Rose


I hate it when that happens.

481 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:46:30pm

re: #451 buzzdroid

i totally agree with your statement.

The phrase “One Nation Under God” is there for a reason.

the is a world of difference between a secular state like France, and a non-established-religion state like America.

Yeah, it is; it was added to the Pledge of Allegiance during the Mccarthyite Red Scare days of the 1950’s.

482 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:46:57pm
483 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:48:02pm

re: #476 Bubbaman

good post.

theres an important distinction between “secularism” and “neutrality”.

a neutral state, like america, can say “all churches can be tax exempt”
whereas the very concept of tax exemption for churches would be alien to a secular state.

its a subtle distinction, but very very important. america aint secular - its neutral. big difference.

484 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:48:56pm

re: #479 Irish Rose

they dont even contribute to the Red Cross.

why do you think the Red Crescent exists?

485 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:49:54pm

re: #456 Spare O’Lake

That was not my point at all.
Kahane was a nutjob, and even after 60 years of Arabs yapping at their heels, most Israelis still favour a two state solution, and very few advocate mass deportations.
Enforcement of immigration laws by deporting criminal elements within illegal alien communities is quite another matter. I doubt you would find many opponents of that.

I think that you were misconstruing my point. I wasn’t endorsing Kahane’s propositions, only that he did have some prescience with regard to what would happen. Many people dismissed him as a loon or as un-realistic.

But there are many of us today who warn of the inherent dangers of the radical adherents to Islam. Should we be uniformly dismissed as Kahane was or should we work within the framework of laws that we have created or may need to implement to ward off a similar outcome?

486 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:51:10pm

re: #483 buzzdroid

good post.

theres an important distinction between “secularism” and “neutrality”.

a neutral state, like america, can say “all churches can be tax exempt”
whereas the very concept of tax exemption for churches would be alien to a secular state.

its a subtle distinction, but very very important. america aint secular - its neutral. big difference.

You nailed it (sorry for the pun).

487 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:51:48pm

re: #484 buzzdroid

they dont even contribute to the Red Cross.

why do you think the Red Crescent exists?

All due respect buzz, but I think you make a lot of blanket statements that don’t have a shred of evidence to back them up.

488 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:52:08pm

Great debate everyone, but I’ve got to run. Keep the faith or for those of you who are truly “secular” keep your keyboards.

489 Purre  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:52:21pm

re: #474 buzzdroid

Dunno. You are referring to the civilian evacuation that Germans did way too late and inefficiently (in many places not at all). The deportations themselves were done after German had fallen and by the East Europeans and Soviet Union. In the West British mass deported ethnic Dutch from Germany (British sure knew how to screw things up. Morons did those years a lot of stupid things.). Otherwise deportation numbers were small in Western Europe.

490 Shane  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:55:33pm

Re #476 Bubbaman;

Not sure where I read it but it made sense at the time. The first amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” doesn’t say there will be no religon in government what so ever. It says we won’t have a “Church of England” type of deal going on. It has been taken to mean there will be no religon of any kind in government and no mentioning of God in government. Looking at the times, it is easy to see that they did not want a state established religon, not a complete lack of religon in government. Although I am an atheist, I can understand the delima.

Lawyers ask the question: Is it legal?
A moral person asks the better question: Is it the right thing to do?

491 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:58:07pm
492 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 3:59:13pm

re: #487 Irish Rose

All due respect buzz, but I think you make a lot of blanket statements that don’t have a shred of evidence to back them up.

Islamic Relief
islamic-relief.com

493 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:00:10pm

re: #483 buzzdroid

good post.

theres an important distinction between “secularism” and “neutrality”.

a neutral state, like america, can say “all churches can be tax exempt”
whereas the very concept of tax exemption for churches would be alien to a secular state.

its a subtle distinction, but very very important. america aint secular - its neutral. big difference.

Actually, a nation that was truly neutral between church and non-church entities would have to tax them all. But a secular nation can maintain that we neither tax churches nor subsidize them, because we are opposed to all church-state entanglements. It would also neither be interested in favoring some faiths over others (establishment clause), or either mandating or forbidding the embrace of any particular faiths (free exercise clause).

494 Shane  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:00:34pm

Speaking of amendments, just read the 5th. Interesting. Seems to settle the case of Gitmo pretty soundly.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

495 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:01:25pm

There is a sufi camp near where I live. THey’re cool.

496 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:02:26pm

re: #489 Purre

Dunno. You are referring to the civilian evacuation that Germans did way too late and inefficiently (in many places not at all). The deportations themselves were done after German had fallen and by the East Europeans and Soviet Union. In the West British mass deported ethnic Dutch from Germany (British sure knew how to screw things up. Morons did those years a lot of stupid things.). Otherwise deportation numbers were small in Western Europe.

no - i’m on about the Sudetenland & Bohemia expulsions.
happened around the same time as the Pallywooders , and yet there are no rockets being fired into Prague.

its a piece of history that not many folks know about

en.wikipedia.org

497 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:02:47pm
498 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:03:33pm

re: #495 Ojoe

There is a sufi camp near where I live. THey’re cool.

Sufi Islam is ok.. was reading about it - really weird mixture of Hindu and Islam… seems to be very laid back, mystical, and none of the jihad stuff…

499 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:03:59pm

re: #498 buzzdroid

They like to dance.

500 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:05:41pm

re: #499 Ojoe

They like to dance.

whirling dervishes…

the music they play to those dances is like something from another planet.

501 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:07:05pm

re: #482 ploome hineni
re: #477 buzzsawmonkey

He was a fascist and a terrorist according to the Israeli government.
I too yearn for Eretz but like most Israelis I still recoil at the prospect of mass deporatations of Arabs.

502 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:11:17pm

Charles, are you getting any positive email tonight?
My guess would be “yes”.

503 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:11:52pm
504 traderjoe9  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:15:57pm

re: #501 Spare O’Lake

re: #477 buzzsawmonkey

He was a fascist and a terrorist according to the Israeli government.
I too yearn for Eretz but like most Israelis I still recoil at the prospect of mass deporatations of Arabs.

I don’t.

We’ve been putting up wit their bullshit for 60 years. We’ve been bending over backwards since our inception to appease these people, to help these people, to convince them that we want nothing but to live in peace. The Arabs have never - EVER - received the rights, privileges, and prosperity - that they do in Israel.

If they are still committed to destroying and annihilating us - to hell with them. We’ve lost thousands upon thousands of our lives that we actually value. Enough is enough.

You would think that after centuries of repression and subjugation and a Holocaust, we would have paid our dues.

505 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:17:20pm

I am not very happy to be reading support for Meir Kahane at LGF, when the parties he founded, Kach and Kahane Chai, are both listed as terrorist groups by the US State Department, and it’s a crime to fund or lend material support to them.

506 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:17:55pm

re: #502 Irish Rose

Charles, are you getting any positive email tonight?
My guess would be “yes”.

Yes, actually - several emails of support on this. And a couple of hate mails too.

507 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:19:14pm

re: #503 buzzsawmonkey

Back off.

508 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:19:31pm

re: #491 Robert Arvanitis

Get off my website.

509 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:24:03pm

re: #506 Charles

You must have a fascinating inbox ;).

510 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:29:00pm

“No decent American would stand for it. It’s an un-American, evil idea to its very core.”

I agree with you on this, wholeheartedly.

“If you argue that it’s vitally necessary to deport the entire Muslim population of the United States, you are ADVOCATING MASS MURDER.”

On this, I dissent. I am not persuaded by your argument. And before you think I am minimizing it, go back to my statement above.

511 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:29:00pm

Well, I see that one of our fans of mass deportation finally worked up the nerve to down-ding this post.

512 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:29:13pm

good move on your part charles. well done.
needed to be said. and said very loudly.

we cant win this war if we round up “muslims” en masse. the internment policy of the british governmetn in northern ireland should be a lesson to us all - happened in the 1970s - total failure. ended up with the IRA getting even more volunteers.

the answer i think lies in the iraq and kurdish political systems - the future is there. if we can grasp it , the rewards will be immense for mankind.

if iraq works out, it could mean the end of the rule of the mullahs.

513 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:30:15pm

re: #510 Dales

On this, I dissent. I am not persuaded by your argument. And before you think I am minimizing it, go back to my statement above.

Oh really? So you believe it IS possible to uproot millions of people from their lives, their families, their friends, their jobs, and take away all their hopes and dreams, without mass violence?

Please elaborate.

514 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:30:20pm

re: #509 Irish Rose

You must have a fascinating inbox ;).

A modern version of the old Chinese curse (May you live in interesting times): May you have an interesting inbox…;~)

515 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:31:28pm
516 buzzdroid  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:31:57pm

re: #513 Charles

Oh really? So you believe it IS possible to uproot millions of people from their lives, their families, their friends, their jobs, and take away all their hopes and dreams, without mass violence?

Please elaborate.

bloody hell.. try doing that in Bradford or Leicester or any other city in britain with a sizeable Muslim population.

instant civil war. and yes - mass violence.. it would be horrific. such thinking is the realm of the BNP and other assorted fascist crazies…

517 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:32:00pm

re: #510 Dales

And by the way, would you like to explain the symbols in your avatar while you’re at it?

518 wiley  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:38:49pm

So what do you suppose the reaction will be, by both the Gov’t and the citizenry, when after a horrific attack with acknowledgment and bragging by the perpetrators, there is retaliation against assets and people of the same nationality, race or religion of the perpetrators. Suppose there are mass demonstrations of the like posted by Zombie with the hatred of Jews and everything western at the forefront. Do you suppose the Gov’t will call up the National Guard to protect the religious buildings and the actual protesters who are calling for our death and destruction, those who are celebrating the deaths of our fellow citizens and chanting to their god. I’m not advocating anything, but you can’t control a fevered mob no matter which side it is on.
It could spawn violence against the Gov’t by the citizenry, if that Gov’t was seen to be not providing the citizens the protection it should, or appears to be protecting the alleged perpetrators or their supporters.

wiley

519 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:40:13pm
520 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:41:16pm
521 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:42:09pm

OK. Now I’m going to have to lay down the law.

This is NOT the place to promote either the JDL or Kach. Do it again and your account will be history.

522 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:42:23pm

“Please elaborate.”

Sure. I’ll draw an analogy.

If the (majority of) Democrats embraced one of their dreams and banned all guns, I believe their would be an insurrection. I believe there would be violence. There would be many deaths. However, I do not believe those who are calling for a ban on guns are advocating mass murder.

They are misguided. They may not have thought through what the consequences of their advocated position would be. They are a lot of really bad things. They are fools, frightened by their own ignorance. But they are not advocating mass murder.

While I have no doubt that some of the most ardent anti-Muslim people would lose no sleep over the deaths of scores, hundreds, or even thousands of Muslims, I also have no doubt that many of them do not think that what you say would be the end result would come to pass.

I believe that if we enact most of the restrictions on power consumption that would be required to fight ‘global warming’ per the Kyoto Protocols, that the result will be deaths. That does not mean I think that global warming alarmists are advocating mass murder. They are wrong headed, and in some cases quite evil. Not as evil as someone who wants to root up all Muslims regardless of how peaceful and good they may be and expel them, I agree. But just because one thinks that another’s beliefs enacted would lead to significant loss of life does not mean the other is advocating mass murder.

All IMO, and respectfully presented. Again, I agree with you on the evil and especially the un-American labels.

523 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:45:32pm

“And by the way, would you like to explain the symbols in your avatar while you’re at it?”

Family crest, from county Cork. Don’t worry, I am not one of those Bold Fenian morons.

Charles, I am an ally, not a foe. I abhor racists, bigots, and for lack of a better word, “haters” of all stripes. Just because I quibbled (while agreeing with a major part of your post!) should not arouse your suspicion.

Hell, you have my comments on your system— take a look and see what I am about. You are getting me all wrong.

524 Quella  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:46:05pm

As an aside, it is not realistic to deport every Muslim in the USA, but it is realistic to seek to restrict immigration, and to enforce deportation laws where applicable. As an example; I recently attended a counter-protest against Hamas supporters by the Israeli Embassy in NYC. I saw maybe 500 mostly Arab Americans waving signs calling for open support for jihad against Israel. How many of these people were legal immigrants? How many were on visas which could and should be revoked?

It is too broad and unfair a brush to seek to deport all Muslims. But I do believe that ICE should be deporting more open supporters of jihad than they do. Things will get ugly very quickly if the people who I saw who were openly chanting Jew murder slogans are allowed to remain in this country and have children who will become American citizens.

525 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:47:53pm

re: #522 Dales

Your analogy is crap. People calling for a ban on guns would be doing it because they are opposed to violence. It might be wrong-headed, but there is absolutely no guarantee that it would lead to mass violence as you say — and the motivation is not even in the same ballpark. And the global warming analogy is the same — you’re completely distorting the case to make these analogies.

It does not matter whether these people who advocate mass deportation BELIEVE it will lead to mass violence — what that shows you is how little thought they’ve given the matter. They’re advocating an ugly, repugnant solution to a non-problem, and the whole point of the post above is to show them the logical, inevitable outcome of this stupid fantasy.

526 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:48:21pm
527 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:49:37pm

And with that, I bid you adieu.

528 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:53:17pm
529 Perpetua  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:53:21pm

re: #356 Salamantis

If you start with the blog rolls of Atlas Shrugged, Gates of Vienna, and Brussels Journal, you should be able to follow links and blogrolls to the lions’ share of the rest of them.

Thank you. Now I realize that I was confusing Atlas Shrugs and Aegean Stables. They both start with A and refer to Greek mythology.

530 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:53:24pm

Dude…like flies…

531 Cygnus  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:53:58pm

re: #15 Big Steve

The day the US tries to deport all Muslims, is the day I start hiding Muslims in my house ala Anne Frank.

Or Corrie ten Boom. “Deport all Muslims” is an idea worthy of Hitler. How totally disgusting and inhumane.

532 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:54:11pm

re: #523 Dales

“And by the way, would you like to explain the symbols in your avatar while you’re at it?”

Family crest, from county Cork. Don’t worry, I am not one of those Bold Fenian morons.

Charles, I am an ally, not a foe. I abhor racists, bigots, and for lack of a better word, “haters” of all stripes. Just because I quibbled (while agreeing with a major part of your post!) should not arouse your suspicion.

Hell, you have my comments on your system— take a look and see what I am about. You are getting me all wrong.

OK, I’ll take your word for it. When I see a Belgian lion, and a tree of life symbol, it sets off warning bells. But I did review your comments and you haven’t supported the kinds of groups who use these symbols.

533 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:54:13pm

“People calling for a ban on guns would be doing it because they are opposed to violence. It might be wrong-headed, but there is absolutely no guarantee that it would lead to mass violence as you say — and the motivation is not even in the same ballpark. And the global warming analogy is the same — you’re completely distorting the case to make these analogies.

It does not matter whether these people who advocate mass deportation BELIEVE it will lead to mass violence — what that shows you is how little thought they’ve given the matter”

I will concede the global warming one was a bit of a stretch. I wanted to give more than one analogy. But your argument that I have not given it much thought is pretty much what I am saying— I haven’t given it much thought because it is stupid, evil, and un-American on it’s face. So why would I consider it much? That’s my point- I believe that most (and again, admittedly, not all) who spout off dumbly that the answer is to round ‘em up and send ‘em out have not thought it through.

But I do think you are vastly underestimating what would happen if there was an attempt at a nationwide gun ban.

Anyhow, I think I made a mistake in posting the comment I did, because in the end I agree with your sentiment and while I think it is counter-productive to call the naive advocates for mass murder, it seems that all my comment, buried 500+ deep, accomplished was to seemingly have you come to some conclusions about me that I do not think are accurate. For that, I am sorry.

534 Irish Rose  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:54:41pm
Unfortunately, there are quite a few “anti-jihad” blogs that have no problem whatsoever with this kind of hate speech, and some that actually invite it

Charles, have you seen PGs’ latest?
Case in point.

535 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:56:37pm

I am glad you looked, Charles.

On my family crest.

I hate the same folks you hate, and have battled them many times. I still get to be a proud Irishman.

536 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:57:33pm
537 Cygnus  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:58:08pm

re: #525 Charles

Your analogy is crap. People calling for a ban on guns would be doing it because they are opposed to violence. It might be wrong-headed, but there is absolutely no guarantee that it would lead to mass violence as you say — and the motivation is not even in the same ballpark. And the global warming analogy is the same — you’re completely distorting the case to make these analogies.

It does not matter whether these people who advocate mass deportation BELIEVE it will lead to mass violence — what that shows you is how little thought they’ve given the matter. They’re advocating an ugly, repugnant solution to a non-problem, and the whole point of the post above is to show them the logical, inevitable outcome of this stupid fantasy.

FYI -

Dales

Karma: 11
Registered since: Jun 17, 2005 at 12:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 42
No. of links posted: 0

I assume he’s gone bye bye now?

538 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:59:30pm

re: #533 Dales

That’s my point- I believe that most (and again, admittedly, not all) who spout off dumbly that the answer is to round ‘em up and send ‘em out have not thought it through.

And that is the whole point of what I wrote — to try to show the idiots who spout this nonsense where it really leads. I absolutely stand by my statement that advocating mass deportation is advocating mass murder, whether they’re aware of it or not.

539 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 4:59:52pm

“I assume he’s gone bye bye now?”

I hope not. I don’t think I have done anything wrong.

540 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:01:33pm

“to try to show the idiots who spout this nonsense where it really leads.”

Well, like I said, I don’t think my arguing really accomplished much of anything positive, then, and as such I regret it.

541 Brisco County  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:02:48pm

Can we advocate the mass exportation of Scientologists instead?

542 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:03:05pm

re: #536 Ojoe

Some Persian architecture.

Notice the use of the Star of David?

543 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:04:38pm

re: #542 Spare O’Lake

Notice the use of the Star of David?

I thought the Star of David was 6-pointed.
That looks like 8-pointed star.
Am I confused or ill-informed?

544 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:06:36pm
545 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:08:25pm

re: #543 reine.de.tout

Yes, six pointed. But look on the side of the casket, near the bottom - it looks like one down there.

546 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:08:53pm

I hope everyone here also condemns the anti-semitic argument that the West Bank Jewish settlers are an “obstacle to peace” and so, must be removed. This is an equally vile, hateful, and genocidal idea that must be condemned. I don’t care if George Mitchell or Samantha Powers, or every president going back to Carter has mindlessly repeated this stupid nonsense; it is anti-semitic to the core, period.

547 dgd  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:09:22pm

Cool, let the hotheads go someplace else.

548 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:11:04pm

re: #532 Charles

OK, I’ll take your word for it. When I see a Belgian lion, and a tree of life symbol, it sets off warning bells. But I did review your comments and you haven’t supported the kinds of groups who use these symbols.

I concur, this standard coat of arms Charles, even down to the red hands.

549 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:11:31pm

If you would like a preview of what an actual forced deportation would look like, my ancestors lived through two mini-deportations in America. One in Missouri, one in Illinois.

I’m sorry if I get emotional, but this is emotional territory for me. Once they had to leave, the value of their farms and homes plummeted. They got less than full value. These were homes they had built themselves, and farms they had built up from nothing. They sold out for what they could, then they started west.

The leaders went first to try and find someplace to go, to plant the first crops and build a few cabins. The strong & healthy went next, although sometimes the healthy had to stop and give birth—in a wagon—along the way.

Last of all came any who either shouldn’t have been moved (too sick) or were poor, or old. They had not been left behind because of neglect, but because the leaders thought the mobs would spare them. They were wrong. They were kicked out into the snow, driven from their homes, and abused & robbed from along the way. They made it across the river and set up a camp of misery until they could be helped.

I can furnish more details, if it helps. I’m sure there are a lot of Jews out there who would be happy to let you know what this looks like in real life as well.

Ideas are fine things, I’ve got a few I’m fond of myself, but you need to think about how an idea translates into real people and real events. Deportation has been tried; this is what it looks like.

550 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:14:50pm

“But I did review your comments and you haven’t supported the kinds of groups who use these symbols.”

I’ll go one step further. The groups like Bold Fenian et al, the Irish nationalist groups, Sinn Féin, and any of the others can kiss my royal Irish ass. I can’t say I know all groups that use those symbols, but they are symbols of my heritage and they can’t have them without a fight.

Anyone who believes in the ideals of America can be, and is, my brother.

551 screaming_eagle  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:15:36pm

re: #549 EmmmieG

Yeh, and there was alot of murder involded.

552 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:17:54pm

re: #549 EmmmieG

My grandparents were deported from Germany; my parents were deported from Romania; in 1967 my parents fled Tel-Aviv because they were sick of hiding in bombshelters. I was four, so I had to follow along. Living like gypsies is no life for me. That’s why today, I stand my ground.

553 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:19:41pm

re: #548 Thanos

I’ve got the lion as well, but then ours is the biggest heraldic train wreck ever seen.

554 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:21:34pm

re: #528 Ojoe

Persian Sufi Music.

Beautiful!

555 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:22:33pm

re: #553 Thanos

They really are garish things, aren’t they? :-)

What I think is funny is that in avatar form, mine looks like it involves insects.

556 Ubergeek  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:23:48pm

re: #553 Thanos

Be glad. At least yours isn’t a goat with his wiener showing, unlike mine…

commons.wikimedia.org

557 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:25:33pm

Dales: I apologize for putting you on the spot like that, but I have to watch out, after numerous cases where the symbols and arguments were not innocent at all.

558 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:26:24pm

re: #555 Dales

It doesn’t?!

:)

On the other hand I can’t see why you would argue in support of emotional people whom judging by the discussion, have to be either short-sighted or cruel. Both are voices that don’t earn your support.

559 yochanan  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:27:04pm

re: #535 Dales

northern irish?

560 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:29:10pm

re: #556 Ubergeek

Be glad. At least yours isn’t a goat with his wiener showing, unlike mine…

[Link: commons.wikimedia.org…]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the wiener isn’t there, doesn’t that mean somebody was a traitor? I’m serious. Some royal army just had a deal with having to take the genitalia off of their lion.

561 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:30:02pm

re: #560 EmmmieG

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the wiener isn’t there, doesn’t that mean somebody was a traitor? I’m serious. Some royal army just had a deal with having to take the genitalia off of their lion.

That was a Swedish army unit iirc.

562 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:30:28pm

re: #515 buzzsawmonkey

I would like to up-ding this comment, but the button is disabled.

563 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:30:35pm

“I apologize for putting you on the spot like that, but I have to watch out”

No apology required, Charles. I’ve moderated forums and know what it is like. As I said, I am an ally. You do a very tough job very well.

564 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:31:44pm

re: #559 yochanan

Actually about as far south as you can get in Ireland.

565 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:32:28pm

re: #553 Thanos

I’ve got the lion as well, but then ours is the biggest heraldic train wreck ever seen.

Hard to beat that, indeed. What a mess.

‘Course, ours is a bit over-freighted, too.

566 Ubergeek  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:33:53pm

re: #560 EmmmieG

Wow, I have no idea. But I think I might actually be okay with a traitor in the background vs the alternative. ;) We just did a family background thing at my daughter’s school and there was no way I was going to bring the crest into the classroom…

567 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:34:59pm

re: #566 Ubergeek

Wow, I have no idea. But I think I might actually be okay with a traitor in the background vs the alternative. ;) We just did a family background thing at my daughter’s school and there was no way I was going to bring the crest into the classroom…

Good idea; you would not have been heard for the giggling.

568 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:37:42pm

re: #558 Thanos

On the other hand I can’t see why you would argue in support of emotional people whom judging by the discussion, have to be either short-sighted or cruel.

I don’t think I am supporting them— I agreed before even starting my argument that they are backing evil and un-American things.

I won’t re-argue my point. I did not succeed in making my point, either because it was a nonsensical one or because I made my argument poorly. I don’t think much is to be gained by trying again at this point, albeit with slightly different wording.

569 Render  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:38:43pm

Quella eh?

THAT
FIGURES,
R

570 ratherdashing  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:40:28pm

If nothing else, Charles has been consistent on this topic:

rounding up all Muslims

eradicating people

571 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:41:32pm

It should also be said, while we’re talking of crests, that the ones you find on the internet for “your” family may have nothing to do with you at all. It’s fun, it’s nostalgic, but the fact is that crests or coats-of-arms are granted to individuals, not families, and just because I may or may not be the sixteenth cousin thrice removed from someone with my last name means nothing vis-à-vis my right to bear it.

572 Perpetua  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:42:38pm

re: #398 traderjoe9


All good projections indicate that in a mere 20 years, Muslims under the age of 20 will be the majority of the “youth” population in Europe. At that point, you can kiss Europe as we know it goodbye.


Can you let me know where I can find any examples of these good projections?

573 yochanan  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:45:00pm

re: #564 Dales

just wondered because of the ‘red hand’

one of my grand parents was from Londonderry, he was jewish but would always get asked if he was prot. or cat.

574 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:46:08pm

re: #568 Dales

I agree, words are such thin means of communication.

575 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:48:20pm

re: #546 tsionguy

I hope everyone here also condemns the anti-semitic argument that the West Bank Jewish settlers are an “obstacle to peace” and so, must be removed. This is an equally vile, hateful, and genocidal idea that must be condemned. I don’t care if George Mitchell or Samantha Powers, or every president going back to Carter has mindlessly repeated this stupid nonsense; it is anti-semitic to the core, period.

Um, hey, there are plenty of Israelis who would disagree with you there.

I’m not saying all settlements have to go; far from it. But nor do I believe that whatever Israelis can grab and hold before a negotiated agreement becomes ipso facto “part of Israel” and sacrosanct. You surely don’t believe that every set of trailers held by a few fanatics ought to be eternalized, do you?

There was nothing anti-Semitic about the withdrawal from Gaza. Hamas was going to take over there anyway. And the cost of defending those settlements was a distraction and a burden too heavy for Israel to bear.

My opinion.

576 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:50:01pm

re: #571 Cato the Elder

Correct. Our family has that in its background, but we consider ourselves noble only in the American sense: Every man and every woman is sovereign here, and has many of the same rights once granted only nobles, thanks to our wonderful Constitution.

577 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:54:32pm

re: #576 Thanos

Correct. Our family has that in its background, but we consider ourselves noble only in the American sense: Every man and every woman is sovereign here, and has many of the same rights once granted only nobles, thanks to our wonderful Constitution.

Aye, matey!

And if you look at the House of Lords these days, one can say that one’s well out o’ that!

578 theheat  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:59:28pm
if you really want to rave like a lunatic about it you can easily find somewhere that will let you

Faux news, Jihad Watch, or maybe as an intern for Ann Coulter? I’m sure there’s more. Stormfront is a friendly place.

/ick

579 Dales  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:03:30pm

re: #574 Thanos

Especially when wielded by me!

580 KosherWineGuy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:05:52pm

Even though I don’t advocate mass deportation, I think selective deportation at an effective level (hundreds not millions) is probably called for.

Again, with the current administration going in the direction of mass importation of terrorist sympathizers (with the latest executive order to facilitate Hamas supporters’ relocation to the USA), I would say that we’re all just pissing into the wind.

L’Shalom,

Rafi Schutzer

581 torabora  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:06:36pm

#398…yes there is an example. The Mideast nations that surround Israel used to have vibrant multicultural populations. Now they don’t. Kosovo is a region that was Serbian and over time Muslim immigration displaced the native one until there was a state of war between the two. The Muslims successfully displaced the native population there via immigration followed by civil war.

As far as the deportation of Muslims goes, I wish there had been some discussion of the origin of the idea. No thinking person would propose such a concept based on religion. I am an advocate for deportation based solely on ones NOT being in compliance with law period. There are, as we all know, millions of folks here illegally. They should go home.

There also needs to be a guest worker program that works, green card reform, student visa reform, and naturalization reform. Bush, and the Republican Congress, failed us on all these issues. Do not look to the DemocRATS to address them either.

582 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:07:12pm

re: #575 Cato the Elder

Thank you for your honesty. Now let’s deconstruct your statements.
1) “plenty of Israelis who would disagree with you…”
That’s not an argument, but I can find many more Israelis who agree with me.
2) “whatever Israelis can grab and hold before a negotiated agreement..”
You accuse total strangers of stealing land that you have never seen and know nothing about. You mindlessly repeat propaganda you have heard, without making even a feeble attempt at verifying these accusations. I can show you several examples of settlements, deep in the West Bank, that were bought and paid for. The Palestinians want to drive all the Jews out. The Palestinian Authority has decreed that selling land to Jews is a crime punishable by death. How does this square with your sense of justice?
3) “There was nothing anti-Semitic about the withdrawal from Gaza…”
Well, what can I say. One man’s anti-semitism is another man’s justice.
Your turn.

583 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:10:41pm
584 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:14:07pm

re: #583 traderjoe9

Not sure you should link to that site.

585 traderjoe9  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:15:51pm

re: #584 reine.de.tout

Not sure you should link to that site.

Gates of Vienna?

Sorry, didn’t know. I couldn’t find the link to the article that the blog contained.

586 Render  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:16:24pm

re: #583 traderjoe9

You couldn’t have found a better place to link?

AGITPROP,
R

587 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:20:18pm

re: #580 KosherWineGuy

Um- the only people who should be getting deported are the one’s here illegally, and one’s here legally who violate our laws.

588 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:21:00pm

re: #581 torabora

I think your history of Kosovo is flawed.

589 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:24:05pm

re: #587 Sharmuta

I agree, and would take it one step further. They should only be deported if their presence is a threat to national security.

590 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:26:28pm

re: #582 tsionguy

Thank you for your honesty. Now let’s deconstruct your statements.

1) “plenty of Israelis who would disagree with you…”

That’s not an argument, but I can find many more Israelis who agree with me.

Then that’s not an argument either.

2) “whatever Israelis can grab and hold before a negotiated agreement..”

You accuse total strangers of stealing land that you have never seen and know nothing about. You mindlessly repeat propaganda you have heard, without making even a feeble attempt at verifying these accusations. I can show you several examples of settlements, deep in the West Bank, that were bought and paid for. The Palestinians want to drive all the Jews out. The Palestinian Authority has decreed that selling land to Jews is a crime punishable by death. How does this square with your sense of justice?

You’re asserting that I made a blanket statement about all settlements. Not true. Nor am I talking about “land that I have never seen and know nothing about”. Don’t make assumptions. My Israeli friends would surely take you to task if you met me and them in Jerusalem.

And you insult me by saying I’m mindlessly repeating propaganda.

I know full well the differing status of various settlements. The question is, do you?

You failed to address my point: “You surely don’t believe that every set of trailers held by a few fanatics ought to be eternalized, do you?” Do you deny that there are illegal settlements? Ones that Israel would very much like to close down? Should they all be defended to the death, regardless of the cost to Israeli society as a whole?

3) “There was nothing anti-Semitic about the withdrawal from Gaza…”

Well, what can I say. One man’s anti-semitism is another man’s justice.

Your turn.

And now you imply I’m an anti-Semite.

I see no future for this debate on such terms, and unless I’m very much mistaken, you will not respond in a way that will alter those terms. Of course, you may surprise me.

Thank you for your honesty.

591 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:26:35pm

re: #589 tsionguy

I agree, and would take it one step further. They should only be deported if their presence is a threat to national security.

No- if the legal immigrants break the law, their ability to stay should be revoked. We have enough criminals without them. If some immigrant man is a rapist, for example, regardless of where he came from- I would say he’s a threat to any American woman. He should not get to stay here.

592 KosherWineGuy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:30:18pm

re: #549 EmmmieG

Here’s an interesting if slightly digressive article:

meforum.org

These are candidates, and I don’t mean for public office.

L’Shalom,

Rafi Schutzer

593 RexMundi  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:33:01pm

It would be a travesty enough if we were to close our borders to people that are from predominantly Muslim (or any other) countries. Imagine if we were to deport them simply because they were from a country that was like that? Disgusting! America gains from immigration in so many ways—so long as we remain the freest county in the world, we will drain the life blood of the less freer countries by having their more intelligent and motivated individuals and families come here to exercise the rights that they should already have in their native countries. So long as we shut off immigration or, worse yet, deport people for no good reason other than some irrational and baseless fears, we would become a nation that is less free and much poorer as a result.

594 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:34:52pm

re: #590 Cato the Elder

Let’s get specific. Which settlements are illegal? (and please cite your sources)

595 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:37:03pm

re: #592 KosherWineGuy

Huh? I wasn’t talking about honor killings, at least, not now. Murder is murder, and aiding and abetting is also against the law.

Prosecute. Why deport? We’ll give them a heavier sentence here.

Unless you mean after-the-fact deportation, but really for murdering one’s child the penalty should be nice and heavy.

596 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:39:58pm

re: #595 EmmmieG

Huh? I wasn’t talking about honor killings, at least, not now. Murder is murder, and aiding and abetting is also against the law.

Prosecute. Why deport? We’ll give them a heavier sentence here.

Unless you mean after-the-fact sentence is served deportation, but really for murdering one’s child the penalty should be nice and heavy.

Fixed it, sorry!

597 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:41:52pm

re: #592 KosherWineGuy

If they’re citizens of this country, how can you deport them? They should be in jail if they’re citizens, but no citizen of this country should face deportation as a punishment for their crimes.

598 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:46:33pm

re: #590 Cato the Elder

Still waiting…

In regard to your statement: “I know full well the differing status of various settlements…”
Please tell me, when have you ever heard any Palestinian spokesperson state that only illegal settlements have to be removed from the future Palestinian state? Has any Palestinian negotiator ever allowed for the possibility of a Jewish population living in Palestine? Again, please educate me with specific examples.

599 traderjoe9  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:48:53pm

re: #598 tsionguy

Still waiting…

In regard to your statement: “I know full well the differing status of various settlements…”
Please tell me, when have you ever heard any Palestinian spokesperson state that only illegal settlements have to be removed from the future Palestinian state? Has any Palestinian negotiator ever allowed for the possibility of a Jewish population living in Palestine? Again, please educate me with specific examples.

Shit…most ‘Palestinians’ don’t even allow for the possibility of a Jewish population living in Israel.

600 KosherWineGuy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:51:36pm

re: #595 EmmmieG

Bidiyuke!

601 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:52:55pm

re: #590 Cato the Elder

And another thing. You did say “There was nothing anti-Semitic about the withdrawal from Gaza…”
This is your opinion, so own up to it.
In my opinion, forcing 9,000 Jews to leave their homes is anti-semitic any way you slice it. It doesn’t matter who’s policy it was. The action is judged on its own merits. History has already shown that it was a terrible mistake.

602 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:54:12pm

re: #591 Sharmuta

You’re right! That is the current law.

603 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:55:35pm
604 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:56:17pm

re: #598 tsionguy

Still waiting…

You all but accused me of being an Jew-hater. You clearly believe that questioning anything done by Israeli citizens is beyond the pale.

Sorry, you can keep waiting. Not playing by your rules.

605 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:57:09pm
606 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:00:37pm

re: #604 Cato the Elder

In point of fact, I do question what Israel has done. I completely disagree with the forced eviction of Gaza’s Jewish population. I completely disagree with Israel’s eviction of Jewish families from the Peace House in Hebron. By the way, the Peace House was purchased for $700,000. I even have the video showing the transaction.

607 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:03:01pm

re: #603 KosherWineGuy

Well I sure hope you’re a law abiding citizen so that you won’t be deported should you break the law.

608 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:07:09pm

re: #601 tsionguy

And another thing. You did say “There was nothing anti-Semitic about the withdrawal from Gaza…”
This is your opinion, so own up to it.
In my opinion, forcing 9,000 Jews to leave their homes is anti-semitic any way you slice it. It doesn’t matter who’s policy it was. The action is judged on its own merits. History has already shown that it was a terrible mistake.

Had the Jews of Gaza been left there to fend for themselves when Israel withdrew, they would have been slaughtered. Having made the decision to withdraw from Gaza, Israel really had no choice but to remove the settlers.
As for the decision to withdraw, it was a democratic decision taken by Ariel Sharon the hawk, based on a (mistaken) belief that the move would enhance the chances for peace. Hardly ant-semitic, though.

609 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:08:45pm

re: #604 Cato the Elder

Sorry I can’t let go of this, but please understand that I have had similar discussions with many Israeli Jews over a Passover table. You do not have to be a Jew-hater to be misguided. Many of my Jewish friends, some of whom call themselves Zionists, are similarly misguided. When they tell me that the discussion is too frustrating to continue, I ask them one simple question:
If you believe that the future of middle-east peace depends on the frank and open discussions between Arabs and Jews, then how can you refuse to have similar discussions, uncomfortable as they might be, among ourselves?

610 traderjoe9  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:10:48pm

re: #604 Cato the Elder

You all but accused me of being an Jew-hater. You clearly believe that questioning anything done by Israeli citizens is beyond the pale.

Sorry, you can keep waiting. Not playing by your rules.

What actions by Israeli citizens are questionable?

611 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:16:35pm

re: #608 Spare O’Lake

“Had the Jews of Gaza been left there to fend for themselves when Israel withdrew, they would have been slaughtered”
In my opinion, slaughtering Jews, or even threatening to slaughter Jews, is anti-semitic. One could argue that giving in to these threats (ie withdrawing from Gaza) is cowardly. But if one considers that the Israeli army had more than enough resources to defend the Jewish residents (they did so for 38 years), then the decision to stop defending them was driven by anti-semitism. The primary function of a government is to protect its citizens.

612 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:17:36pm

re: #610 traderjoe9

What actions by Israeli citizens are questionable?

Voting in such numbers for Kadima in the recent election was arguably an act of attempted national suicide.

613 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:23:14pm
614 CIA Reject  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:23:28pm
“There is no way in hell that you can uproot millions of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong, and throw them all out of the country, without committing mass violence. People will resist this with all their hearts.

No decent American would stand for it. It’s an un-American, evil idea to its very core.”

I agree 100% with this statement, and I have my reasons for thinking it is correct. But I would like to know the consensus opinion on why people here think it is correct. Will “People resist this with all their hearts”, and “No decent American would stand for it”, and is it “an un-American, evil idea to its very core” simply because it is impractical, or because it will result in “mass violence”, or is there another reason?

/just wonderin’

615 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:23:55pm

re: #612 Spare O’Lake

Withdrawing from Gaza was also an act of national suicide. See? We agree!

616 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:28:27pm

Apparently, there’s more than one person who didn’t read the last sentence I posted above.

617 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:34:44pm

re: #615 tsionguy

Actually, we do both yearn for Eretz but your use of the term “anti-semitism” to describe a major policy decision of the democratically elected government of Israel (mis)calculated to enhance the chances of peace, in my opinion seems to cheapen the term.

618 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:37:46pm

re: #616 Charles

I re-emphasize my strong opposition to mass deportations, whatever the political motives, wherever they occur. My discussion has centered on the political deportation of 9,000 Jews from Gaza, and the proposed deportation of 250,000 Jews from the West Bank, and another 190,000 Jews from East Jerusalem. If we are going to advocate a just principle, as Charles has eloquently stated, then we must apply that principle even-handedly.

619 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:39:19pm

Good night, lacerti!

620 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:41:55pm

re: #617 Spare O’Lake

I do not believe I cheapen the term anti-semitism. I do lower the threshold, however. Why? Because I want to raise the standard of what we call justice. I do not believe it is just to say that Jews must only live on one side of a border (insert any Israeli-Arab border here), while Arabs are free to live anywhere they please.

621 traderjoe9  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:42:40pm

re: #612 Spare O’Lake

Voting in such numbers for Kadima in the recent election was arguably an act of attempted national suicide.

Oh, I agree. Jews/Israelis have a knack for inflicting pain on themselves.

623 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:09:04pm

re: #622 Ojoe

We certainly thought Iran was on the right path when the Shah Reza Pahlavi was in power. He was far from perfect, but Iran was a much friendlier place back then.

624 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:09:22pm

re: #538 Charles

I absolutely stand by my statement that advocating mass deportation is advocating mass murder, whether they’re aware of it or not.

The deportees would not find good welcomes in new places and would suffer both leaving and arriving, stating it mildly.

625 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:12:06pm

re: #623 tsionguy

My architecture history professor in college, 1970s, went to Iran with a little Rollei 35 mm camera and came back with the most beautiful photos, I remember to this day. I don’t think an American could make that trip now. And whatever happens in the next years, I hope the destruction is not too much.

626 tatterdemalian  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:14:05pm

Anti-semitism, or really Jew-hate (let’s call it what it is, screw the Nazi-invented euphamisms), continues to this day, only in a sneakier form that tries to drive the Jewish people to suicide, instead of driving the rest of the world to kill them. The frog managed to wake up in time to jump out of that pot of boiling, bloody water, albiet with terrible burns that may never heal. So now the Jew-haters are trying a pot of boiling ether, instead.

627 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:28:42pm

re: #626 tatterdemalian

I completely agree that Jew-hatred is rampant. I am also careful not to paint people with a broad brush. Perhaps the language is inadequate. Whenever I try to discuss the topic, people tense up. No one feels comfortable talking about it. But it desperately needs to be discussed. I know many good and kind Muslims, Arabs, and Persians. Iran has a silent majority that eagerly longs for modernity. While I don’t want to alienate them, I have also found that anyone who grows up in an environment filled with Jew-hatred, as good as they may be, some of it inevitably sinks into their subconscious, and resurfaces at the worst times. This is also true many Jews who have grown up in similar circumstances.

628 medaura18586  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:05:05pm

re: #515 buzzsawmonkey

The following exchange adds fresh context to buzzsawmonkey’s support for Meir Kahane and his political offshoots:

buzzsawmonkey:


re: #20 Pastorius

I have the same question as Wrath of God; what the alternative?

Gimme a “T”
Gimme an “R”
Gimme an “A”
Gimme an “N”
Gimme an “S”
Gimme an “F”
Gimme an “E”
Gimme an “R”

What’s that spell?

Pastorius:

Buzzsawmonkey,
Transfer to where? Jordan?

buzzsawmonkey:

Reasonable, since Jordan is “Palestine”—the lion’s share of it, anyway.

On the other hand, if someplace else—other than the US—will take ‘em, I have no particular objection.

Ben Hur:

“Transfer” does not mean physically moving people, it means moving the border.

People who advocate the “transfer” of the ISraeli Arabs in the “Triangle” - (yes, we had one first) in Northern Israel don’t actually advocate “cleansing” those areas of Arabs, just moving the border so that instead of being a welfare burden on the state they hate, they would be part of their brethren’s Palestinina Authority.


Redraw the map.

Unless you are fishing and are trying to bait someone into wanting to set up camps.

Which I’m sure you’re not.

buzzsawmonkey:

No, it means physically moving people.

Just like the Jews were physically moved out of Arab countries after Israel was founded.

Just like the Muslims were physically moved out of newly-independent India, and the Hindus out of newly-independent Pakistan.

Just like the Poles and Germans were physically moved out of Germany or Poland after WWII.

buzzsawmonkey:


re: #66 Ben Hur

Yes, I understand that.

But the only real way of a modern transfer is to just move the border and give all the potential 100s of billions of future Pali aide money to the Ewok King.

What is this “modern” crap?

What is there that suddenly decrees that people who have no intention of doing anything except living in their own shit and taking occasional time out to murder their neighbors have some perpetual title to one particular spot on earth?

Enlightening…

629 medaura18586  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:19:50pm

re: #619 Cato the Elder

Good night, lacerti!

You calling us upper arms?

/

630 Purre  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:20:11pm

re: #546 tsionguy

I hope everyone here also condemns the anti-semitic argument that the West Bank Jewish settlers are an “obstacle to peace” and so, must be removed. This is an equally vile, hateful, and genocidal idea that must be condemned. I don’t care if George Mitchell or Samantha Powers, or every president going back to Carter has mindlessly repeated this stupid nonsense; it is anti-semitic to the core, period.

I oppose taking down the settlements and all pursuits at deporting Jews from their homes, regardless where those homes are. Giving land away “Judenrein” is sick and racistic and I am ashamed that my country has lots of people who think settlers should he driven from their homes.

In my opinion only non-racistic two state solution support requires that those settlers who live in the land that would become Arab-majority are given all rights, responsibilities and citizenship of that state, and that they don’t have to be afraid for their safety in the slightest. Anything short of that would be racist and immoral.

631 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:35:43pm

re: #629 medaura18586

You calling us upper arms?

/

Heh. Good one.

Lacertus is also a rare variant of lacerta.

Did you see my Facebook invite?

632 Turtler  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:50:08pm

The one thing I’ve always found hilarious about the “purge and crush” types is how they attempt to justify themselves by evoking the Japanese internments.

Newsflash idiots:

As justifiably horrific as the internment was, there is one keen thing you are missing:

for all the brutality, illegality, and injustice committed towards the Japanese-Americans and a few other “enemy aliens” (many of whom were not aliens at all) they still planned- in the near future at the time- to actually TEAR DOWN the Damn system and restore the wronged peoples to their rightful possessions and places.

How odd not one of the knaves talking about that ever talks about restoring the innocent Muslims and Arabs who would be caught up in such a sweep to their freedom and their legal entitlements.

That alone speaks VOLUMES to me about their real intent.

After all, while FDR- for all his MANY flaws- actually planned to release the innocents impounded, Hitler, Stalin, and the “Three Pashas” had no such intentions.

Which is why they never considered planning to do so.

After all, what good is freedom to a corpse?

633 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:00:27pm

re: #629 medaura18586

You calling us upper arms?

/

“Up in arms”!

634 el guape  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:18:30pm

Hats off, Charles. It’s a shame that it needed to be said so unequivocally.

635 tsionguy  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 10:19:12pm

re: #630 Purre

Here’s another demand that I haven’t heard anywhere:
If the whole world (or so it seems) is demanding that Israel opens up the Gaza border to all Arab movement, why doesn’t this freedom of movement also apply to Jews crossing the border into Gaza? Admittedly, such an Israeli visiter in Gaza would need an armored vehicle with a soldier escort, but an open border should be open to everyone.

636 dsun  Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:36:46pm

good reminder, muddling thing isn’t helping at all, way to go LGF (which is so far the only voice of reason i can see).

637 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:13:31am
638 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:39:19am

re: #637 homeinzion

And if those parents happen to be citizens who are innocent of any involvement a crime, they’d get deported too, in your book?

639 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 2:08:47am

re: #638 Sharmuta

And if those parents happen to be citizens who are innocent of any involvement a crime, they’d get deported too, in your book?

Collective punishment isn’t the American Way.

640 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 3:30:03am

re: #637 homeinzion

Advocating deportation of “parents and progeny” of citizen criminals is completely unacceptable by any normal legal or moral standard.
Your comment is in my view fascist and beyond the pale.

641 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 3:46:26am

re: #635 tsionguy

Here’s another demand that I haven’t heard anywhere:
If the whole world (or so it seems) is demanding that Israel opens up the Gaza border to all Arab movement, why doesn’t this freedom of movement also apply to Jews crossing the border into Gaza? Admittedly, such an Israeli visiter in Gaza would need an armored vehicle with a soldier escort, but an open border should be open to everyone.

Israeli visitors to Gaza should also remember to bring along their psychiatric medications.

642 medaura18586  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 7:45:29am

re: #631 Cato the Elder

Got it. Thanks for the reminder. Hot rumors of my involvement in Facebook espionage notwithstanding, I barely check my account or any invites.

643 Shane  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 8:01:59am

re: #497 Buzzsawmonkey;

Really? Because that is the only wording provided and it doesn’t say a single thing about the military. Also you can read the federalist papers concerning the issue and it also neglects to mention that it is only for soldiers. So is that your personnel interpretation or has that been ruled on by the supreme court?

644 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 8:13:07am

re: #642 medaura18586

Chortle!

See you around.

645 gregb  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 8:45:54am

In my humble opinion, the best approach historically is to Americanize them.

The US government used the same argument about not being able to deport 14 million illegal aliens in the last immigration reform debate.

There’s an idea…we’ll just fine them for being Muslim-Americans? Balanced budget here we come!

646 jackflash  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 2:57:52pm

Good for you, Charles.

647 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 4:02:19pm
648 tsionguy  Wed, Feb 18, 2009 5:28:31pm

re: #641 Spare O’Lake

Answer this then: if a Gazan entered Israel and was immediately lynched by Jews, who would the world blame, the ‘crazy Gazan’, or the Jews who killed him?
Do you see your double standard? You label any Jew who would want to set foot in Gaza as a mental patient. You may think it’s ‘crazy’ to want to go back to Gaza, but a lot of Jews left their entire lives back there. To this day they still live in trailer parks like Katrina victims. Show a little sympathy.


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