Forbes, that respected journal of science.

What a bunch of putzes.

Fairness Doctrine gone awry?

Good for him.

If Forbes were to acknowledge NASA's landing on the moon, would it also give space to those who say it was filmed in a studio?

In the Soviet Union, pure science was one of the few refuges from politics.

Creationism and Global Warming are the same coin- politics injected into science.

Off topic, I wanted to post this link--let me know if it should go somewhere else: Apropos of the domestic beheading in Buffalo, I wanted to reassure those Lizards who have shown from the start such concern about NOW's response, that NOW has, indeed, responded.

The New York president of the National Organization for Women, Marcia Pappas, condemned prosecutors for referring to the death as an apparent case of domestic violence.

"This was, apparently, a terroristic version of 'honor killing,' " a statement from NOW said.

Forbes. Isn't that a business mag?
I guess this is appropriate, since the country is now officially on a faith-based economic system.

#2, or a balancing article on faith healing?

re: #2 MandyManners

Good for him.

If Forbes were to acknowledge NASA's landing on the moon, would it also give space to those who say it was filmed in a studio?

THAT I would read with a smile!

/as a former space guy, I love those idjits

Who reads Forbes for their take on science?

That's like subscribing to Hustler for the crossword puzzle

Forbes should stick to finances and leave science to science magazines and leave creationism to writers of fiction

This months issue of Discover has several great articles on Evolution including one titled "Are We Still Evolving?".

P.Z. Myers on Forbes' possible motive:

"Coyne did not hold back in criticizing the magazine, either — and Forbes published it all without edits. That's to their credit, but I can't help but feel that there's a callous calculation here, that even arguments against the quality of their publication are seen as a way to boost circulation."

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

re: #3 jones

In the Soviet Union, pure science was one of the few refuges from politics.

Creationism and Global Warming are the same coin- politics injected into science.

And their basic science was quite rigorous and advanced. Their manufacturing and business, however, where the government could interfere, was miserable. Volgas and Ladas, anyone?
I guess we're heading there now, though, with the government money meaning the government can control the car companies.

Is subscribtions to Forbes down or something?

Again, I am all for having philosphy class to discuss 'what it all means' but to those who want to teach magic in science class, get bent.

Coyne makes a good point about Egnor.

Egnor makes a good point about P.Z. Myers.

I couldn't help but notice some of the creationist truthers in the comments.

re: #3 jones

In the Soviet Union, pure science was one of the few refuges from politics.

Creationism and Global Warming are the same coin- politics injected into science.

Actually, umm, no it wasn't. They pushed a neoLamarckian doctrine known as Lysenkoism. Stalin tried to grow crops according to its principles, and ended up starving 20 million people.

Why do we suffer this drivel?!?! The schools need to get their acts together and teach Reading Writing and Arithmetic! all this touchy feely crap is utter nonsense...I never learned about Darwin can be right to a certain point about creatures evolution but someone lit the fuse to life is that so hard to comprehend?

True on the Lamarck, but the Terror Famine was no accident. That was planned.

I re phrase my statement to start with "In general..."

re: #14 Cognito

Coyne makes a good point about Egnor.

Egnor makes a good point about P.Z. Myers.

Egnor is a moron of the first water.

re: #20 Charles

Egnor is a moron of the first water.

And his name spelled backwards (ronge) can be pronounced 'wrong'.

Heh. Hannity is playing circus music over Burris talking.

re: #20 Charles

Egnor is a moron of the first water.

I've never heard of the guy. And he doesn't acquit himself well in this article. But I'm slow to call any neurosurgeon a moron.

And regarding P.Z. Myers: Given a choice, I'd rather take Egnor's stance and risk being wrong than take Myers' and risk being right. (Thanks, Pascal.) And I think both men overstep their expertise by a good long stride.

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

Aw, come on--don't you want to learn how to transfigure a sofa into a dachshund?

Are you teaching at Hogwarts? I am so there.

re: #18 MarineVet

Why do we suffer this drivel?!?! The schools need to get their acts together and teach Reading Writing and Arithmetic! all this touchy feely crap is utter nonsense...I never learned about Darwin can be right to a certain point about creatures evolution but someone lit the fuse to life is that so hard to comprehend?

Evolution doesn't address how life began, but describes how existing populations of organisms possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity react when confronted by surrounding environments possessing specific challenges and opportunities. And that is by means of random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection - that is, by means of evolution.

re: #18 MarineVet

I'm trying to understand what you are saying here. Schools do need to focus on academics - reading, writing, arithmetic and science - of which evolution is a part. For good measure, I'd add a logic course, but that's just me. I get confused with the Darwin statement - you say you never learned? Or is your point that evolution and religion are not mutually exclusive?

re: #24 Cognito

I've never heard of the guy. And he doesn't acquit himself well in this article. But I'm slow to call any neurosurgeon a moron.

And regarding P.Z. Myers: Given a choice, I'd rather take Egnor's stance and risk being wrong than take Myers' and risk being right. (Thanks, Pascal.) And I think both men overstep their expertise by a good long stride.

Neurosurgeons can definitely be morons. Case in point: Michael Egnor. He may be the world's greatest neurosurgeon (probably not), but his views on the theory of evolution are right out of the Dark Ages, with added pseudo-scientific gloss.

re: #28 Charles

I've never heard him called the world's great neurosurgeon.
That's another guy altogether.

Addendum to that last bit:

Re: Egnor's preferable stance vs. Myers': That pertains to the afterlife. Science is another matter.

re: #24 Cognito

I've never heard of the guy. And he doesn't acquit himself well in this article. But I'm slow to call any neurosurgeon a moron.

And regarding P.Z. Myers: Given a choice, I'd rather take Egnor's stance and risk being wrong than take Myers' and risk being right. (Thanks, Pascal.) And I think both men overstep their expertise by a good long stride.

Pascal's wager has a dark flip side. If you spend this present life doing what you think God wants you to do with it instead of what you want to do with it in order to attain a favored place in a believed-in next, and that belief is a delusion, then when you die you have sacrifieced your entire existence for nothing but a baseless mirage.

The gloaming.

Towercam !

BBL

re: #28 Charles

Point taken.

re: #8 Shug

Well, it's a popular magazine for conservatives so they are pandering to their audience.

re: #32 Ojoe

Very pretty.

Further research reveals that Michael Egnor is an Operating Thetan Level VIII of the Church of Creationism.

Apparently he's big on the ID lecture circuit and even writes (blabbers) for the Discovery Institute.

re: #32 Ojoe

The gloaming.

Towercam !

BBL

It's up to 34°!

re: #31 Salamantis

Pascal's wager has a dark flip side. If you spend this present life doing what you think God wants you to do with it instead of what you want to do with it in order to attain a favored place in a believed-in next, and that belief is a delusion, then when you die you have sacrifieced your entire existence for nothing but a baseless mirage.

Nah. I think Pascal would have said -- and I would say -- that without an afterlife spent in the presence of God, our 'entire existence' is baseless either way.

re: #29 J.D.

I've never heard him called the world's great neurosurgeon.
That's another guy altogether.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Michael Egnor is the world's greatest neurosurgeon. That was a hypothetical, intended to set up the following statement.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Who needs "intelligent design"?

re: #36 Gus 802

Further research reveals that Michael Egnor is an Operating Thetan Level VIII of the Church of Creationism.

Apparently he's big on the ID lecture circuit and even writes (blabbers) for the Discovery Institute.

Are you surprised?

re: #37 J.D.

Melting!

BBL, really.

re: #39 Charles

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Michael Egnor is the world's greatest neurosurgeon. That was a hypothetical, intended to set up the following statement.

That's what I thought, but just in case...

re: #41 Charles

Nope. Nothing surprises me anymore.

re: #44 Gus 802

Nope. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Everybody says that until I slip the dead mouse into their burrito.

He even refers to Deepak Chopra. That should tell you something.

re: #44 Gus 802

Nope. Nothing surprises me anymore.

I miss surprises.

evolution...of some sort...

/now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

So what's the over-under on the first creationist meltdown?

re: #45 OldLineTexan

Everybody says that until I slip the dead mouse into their burrito.

Is that what that was?!

re: #50 Gus 802

Is that what that was?!

Yes, but you see mice and cows share a common meat-cestor.

re: #50 Gus 802

Is that what that was?!

The fur didn't tip you off?

re: #38 Cognito

Nah. I think Pascal would have said -- and I would say -- that without an afterlife spent in the presence of God, our 'entire existence' is baseless either way.

Nope. The absence of a cosmically mandated meaning allows us to choose particular human meanings for our lives, and to commit ourselves to them, and to effortfully strive for their realization.

One does not have to exist forever for one's existence to be meaningful. In fact, it is our very finitude that renders each moment precious. An eternity of existence would render any particular span within it miniscule and insignificant.

I'm gonna put 50 cents on comment #178.

re: #49 Charles

So what's the over-under on the first creationist meltdown?

How many, despite KT's inside track, actually read Forbes?

re: #49 Charles

So what's the over-under on the first creationist meltdown?

We already have the first creationist ding-down, so it should be soon.

Egnor's ethics:

"Egnor claims that two thirds of doctors don’t accept evolution, and that this is because doctors have some sort of special insight into living things. He is not the first to make this claim; his new handlers at the Discovery Institute have said this before, based on a survey published by the Louis Finkelstein Institute, going so far as to claim that “a majority of doctors favor intelligent design over Neo-Darwinism.”

Would you be surprised to learn that the survey doesn’t say these things at all, that in fact it says the exact opposite? More below."

[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

re: #56 CyanSnowHawk

We already have the first creationist ding-down, so it should be soon.

Wow, that was fast! 'tai-pan' is on the case.

re: #54 Charles

I'm gonna put 50 cents on comment #178.

500 quatloos on comment 197

re: #53 Salamantis

Nope. The absence of a cosmically mandated meaning allows us to choose particular human meanings for our lives, and to commit ourselves to them, and to effortfully strive for their realization.

One does not have to exist forever for one's existence to be meaningful. In fact, it is our very finitude that renders each moment precious. An eternity of existence would render any particular span within it miniscule and insignificant.

Absent some larger expectation, some higher standard, I'm wasting time by not getting out there and sluttin' it up.

re: #56 CyanSnowHawk

We already have the first creationist ding-down, so it should be soon.

I wonder if they have their own Facebook group and alert each other when Charles posts a thread such as this.

One aspect of this whole brouhaha is the (false) claim that Christians are being marginalized. Yes, among the looney lefties there are many who harbor great resentment towards Christians. But there is really nothing they can do to take away Christians' right to believe or worship the way they want in the private sector. Granted, there may be an occasional incident where a Christian’s First Amendment Rights in the private sector are truly infringed (usually by the aforementioned looney lefty). But these make the news precisely because they are rare. And they are (hopefully) quickly rectified.

But no matter what happens, the First Amendment guarantees Christians (and Muslims, and Jews, and all other religions) can practice their religion -- and that people of no religion are protected from being forced to believe what even a majority want them to (this last part of the First Amendment is often forgotten by the "creationists"). The majority of people in the United States are Christian. Every other street corner in the nation has a Christian church on it, and some of those churches are HUGE, and none have to pay taxes. Secular bookstores have entire sections devoted just to Christian books. Other bookstores are entirely Christian-themed. Entire TV networks broadcast Christian themed shows 24/7/365. Christianity is not in any danger in the United States.

But none of that matters to some people. They won't be happy until the federal government legitimizes their one religion over all others. They worry so much that other people's children aren't forced to believe just as they do. It's not enough for them to teach their own children whatever religious views they hold. They want the government to force – at gunpoint (because all laws are backed up by threat of violence) – other people's children in state-run schools to accept their religious views. The concept of live and let live seems alien to them, let alone the concept of freedom FROM religion also stated in the First Amendment.

And for whatever reason, they have chosen the foundation of the science of biology to try and wedge (their word) their religion into the lives of other people's children.

And just as they have no concept of biology, they have no concept of just how sick or dangerous it is to freedom and the United States.

re: #57 jaunte

Egnor's ethics:

[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

You would think "Louis Finkelstein" would be the inverse of "Louis Farrakhan".

/I would, anyway

re: #60 Cognito

Some behaviors are their own reward, both short-term and long.

re: #61 MandyManners

I wonder if they have their own Facebook group and alert each other when Charles posts a thread such as this.

Maybe Pam has a flashing beacon like Drudge for when we stray off the anti-jihad reservation.

re: #61 MandyManners

I wonder if they have their own Facebook group and alert each other when Charles posts a thread such as this.

Flash mob?

re: #57 jaunte

Yeah, and the majority of MDs run to the back of the office to read through the physicians manual.

1 dollar Bob

re: #60 Cognito

Absent some larger expectation, some higher standard, I'm wasting time by not getting out there and sluttin' it up.

If your character is that shallow and base. If you are a nobler, more profound being, perhaps striving to discover new knowledge that would benefit humankind might be your motivating cup of tea.

Creationist Blackjack

Oh brother. I hoper it's OK to post this. Here's what one ID Thetan had to say about Darwin/evolution:

Yes, evolution is very interesting - like any other type of ancient history - but no, it is not essential. I think it should definitely be studied, along with the cave paintings, ancient Egypt and theories about the origin of life and the universe and all that. But the burden of pretending that evolution is useful in a concrete way is tiresome and surely avoidable.

re: #69 Salamantis

If your character is that shallow and base. If you are a nobler, more profound being, perhaps striving to discover new knowledge that would benefit humankind might be your motivating cup of tea.

My nature is that shallow and base. I'm imbued with something nobler and more profound.

My take, anyway.

re: #24 Cognito

Thought at bedtime:

What if God actually hates Pascal's wager, and reserves his worst damnation of all for the sort of craven bet-hedging bastards who go by it? All the while you think you're playing safe, you might just be making him madder and madder ;)

Nite folks.

re: #69 Salamantis

If your character is that shallow and base. If you are a nobler, more profound being, perhaps striving to discover new knowledge that would benefit humankind might be your motivating cup of tea.

You see, YOU decide what is your field of ultimate concern. And no one can take that decision, or that devotion, away from you.

With a hat-tip to ojoe,cool blue evening arriving from the Towercam on the Mt. Wilson Observatory, with the snow-capped peaks of the mountains in the distance:

[Link: www.astro.ucla.edu...]

re: #72 Cognito

My nature is that shallow and base. I'm imbued with something nobler and more profound.

My take, anyway.

Then you can do both. Or do you fall down when you try to chew gum?

I've kinda given up on National Review to lead the way on this stuff, by the way. They seem to be firmly in the creationist camp.

re: #73 Jimmah

The trick is you have to mean it.

Can we expect that it will balance stories on medicine with the competing views of shamans, Christian Scientists and spiritual healers? Will articles on the Holocaust be rebutted by the many Holocaust deniers? When the 40th anniversary of the first moon landing rolls around this July, will Forbes give a say to paranoids who think the landing was a fraud, staged on a movie lot?

That's gonna leave a mark.

re: #71 Gus 802

Heh.

there is just no room in science for politically correct b.s.
it is absurd to have creationist propaganda in a science article abt. darwin and evolution.

re: #76 Iron Fist

But it was all pointless anyway. Whether you lived as an utter hedonist, a saint, or a butcher you are going to die soon (on the relative scale of things) anyway. Might as well have fun along the way, I guess, but it really doesn't matter, even to you, if you did or did not.

After you're dead, perhaps nothing matters, but while alive, everything should matter. And different people have different ideas of what fun is. One need not sacrifice orgasms for eureka moments of achievement or discovery, or vice versa.

re: #82 nyc redneck

They are working on a conservative Fairness Doctrine. Just think of it as intellectual affirmative action.

This is sort of what I was on about in some threads over the weekend. The issue is social indoctrination--not Darwin v ID. The problem is that, from my perspective, the ID'ers are waging a losing fight. They might win the battle, but ultimately lose the war. They have the right ideas but the wrong axis of attack.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Off to dinner.

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Reminds me of the "archaeologist" in an Asimov novella (Pebble in the Sky, IIRC) who "did" archaeology by studying the "old masters" ... actually digging himself was so boring ...

re: #78 Charles

I've kinda given up on National Review to lead the way on this stuff, by the way. They seem to be firmly in the creationist camp.

Suspect they are in the "how many magazines can we sell" camp... and they know that there is only a small demand for a non-creationist, non-religious "conservative" magazine... but with knowledge that pews are full in churches, NRO is aware of the size of that market.

If you'd like to see an absolutely classic case of creationist quote mining, start here and read downward:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #87 freetoken

Suspect they are in the "how many magazines can we sell" camp... and they know that there is only a small demand for a non-creationist, non-religious "conservative" magazine... but with knowledge that pews are full in churches, NRO is aware of the size of that market.

Nah. The bump from this would be more or less insignificant.

If they suddenly shift to Evolutionists vs. Creationists in every issue, the accusation might carry more weight.

Or if next week they feature "Forbes Bunnies."

re: #84 Killgore Trout

They are working on a conservative Fairness Doctrine. Just think of it as intellectual affirmative action.

That's a disturbing thought. Imagine if you will a Fairness Doctrine being applied to science programming. Thus following every discussion on scientific or evolutionary matters would be a counterpoint by a dentist creationist.

Hot air put up Ace's update on Hitchens. AP's readers continue the hatefest.

I would consider myself to be a less noble person if I embraced doing good and avoided doing ill because some mighty deity simultaneously bribed me with a pie called Heaven and threatened me with a club called Hell, than if I embrace doing good and avoid doing ill because it's the decent thing to do, and I desire to do the decent thing.

If that's not good enough for some deity, I can live, and die, with that.

"A college degree is no guarantee its owner is not an idiot." Forget where I read that but...truer words were never spoke.

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Hot air put up Ace's update on Hitchens. AP's readers continue the hatefest.

Chest beating is actually a form of self CPR. I read it in a science publication.

/s

re: #93 USBeast

"A college degree is no guarantee its owner is not an idiot." Forget where I read that but...truer words were never spoke.

That sounds Heinlein-esque.

re: #92 Salamantis

Whence comes this decency?

re: #89 Cognito

NRO's catering to certain crowds goes beyond just an evolution vs. creationism article here and there. NRO has been riding (from what I see from their website, I don't read the printed page) the scientists/elitists/intellectuals vs. the common man/conservative true believer for awhile.

There are writer there who try to challenge "the base" on topics from time to time... but to me (and this might only be my perception) NRO is not a leading consortium of thinkers on topics relevant to society, and still hasn't gotten over the loss of Buckley.

re: #96 Cognito

Whence comes this decency?

From a desire to reap the benefits of civilization.

#93-

Will Rogers- There is nothing so stupid as an educated man, if you get off the thing that he was educated in.

As an educated man, I will attest to this.

re: #96 Cognito

Whence comes this decency?

From the existential exigencies that emerge and arise from a contemplation of my ground situation as a self-consciously aware and spatiotemporally finite being, surrounded by others similar to but not identical with myself, with whom I have a varying set of relations, and with whom I wish to coexist in peace, liberty, security and prosperity while sharing finite space and resources. To receive these things, I have to be willing to also grant them.

re: #98 CyanSnowHawk

From a desire to reap the benefits of civilization.

Isn't that at odds with man's urge to -- since we've already gone there -- to perpetuate society with morally indiscriminate propagation?

How do we decide which is 'decent'?

BTW Charles, you might have roused the creationists more if you had worked in Coulter et. al. to the Coyne discussion. E.g., Coyne's dissing of Coulter's book (yeah, I know, you've posted it before, but it is worth reminding people of how the leading lights (ahem..) of conservatism are so set against modern science.)

re: #101 Cognito

You could try it out, and see what happens.

re: #96 Cognito

Whence comes this decency?

You can arrive at an answer to that, believe it or not, without theology (though I am a believer in the Almighty).

Think of it this way: we can say that a particular horse or dog is a good horse or good dog because it fulfills our expectations of what these animals are and what they should do; the same principle applies to tools, etc. Once we know what a thing is, we know what it should do and be.

Man? Why, at a minimum, he's the rational, social animal. That is, we expect of him that he would behave rationally (in accordance with reason) and in accordance with the requirements to live in a social or political order. Certain acts satisfy these criteria, while certain other acts do not; the acts that satisfy these criteria are in accord with human nature, and so are good; those that do not, are bad.

These are broad outlines, of course, but one gets the picture.

re: #88 Charles

If you'd like to see an absolutely classic case of creationist quote mining, start here and read downward:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Clearly in over his/her/its head.

Did I miss MarineVet's response? Did he/she leave? Was I mean? I'm usually not mean. Am I?

Are you contending, cogito, that Buddhists, Taoists and Confucians lack praiseworthy sets of moral precepts? These faiths are nontheistic.

re: #100 Salamantis

So it's inborn to be polite, as an ultimately self-preserving manner.

It's natural, then. What about when men do things that conflict with their natures -- when they run into burning buildings, say -- and obey some higher ideal?

re: #95 CyanSnowHawk

That sounds Heinlein-esque.

I'm pretty sure it's not Heinlein. It might have been somebody's comment on another site years ago. Anyway, I can't deny the truth of it.

re: #100 Salamantis

From the existential exigencies that emerge and arise from a contemplation of my ground situation as a self-consciously aware and spatiotemporally finite being, surrounded by others similar to but not identical with myself, with whom I have a varying set of relations, and with whom I wish to coexist in peace, liberty, security and prosperity while sharing finite space and resources. To receive these things, I have to be willing to also grant them.

Yeah, what Heidegger there said.

Any flameouts worthy of ridicule or comedic skit yet?

re: #104 Guanxi88

the acts that satisfy these criteria are in accord with human nature, and so are good; those that do not, are bad.

Oh, I'm not quite sure about that. Not at all.

re: #100 Salamantis

From the existential exigencies that emerge and arise from a contemplation of my ground situation as a self-consciously aware and spatiotemporally finite being, surrounded by others similar to but not identical with myself, with whom I have a varying set of relations, and with whom I wish to coexist in peace, liberty, security and prosperity while sharing finite space and resources. To receive these things, I have to be willing to also grant them.

Sal -your teachers maybe knew a certain Leo S.?

re: #112 BigPapa

Any flameouts worthy of ridicule or comedic skit yet?

We have a volunteer!

re: #100 Salamantis

That made my head hurt a little.

re: #107 Salamantis

Are you contending, cogito, that Buddhists, Taoists and Confucians lack praiseworthy sets of moral precepts? These faiths are nontheistic.

Not at all. I'm asking for the fountainhead of praiseworthiness.

re: #113 Cognito

Oh, I'm not quite sure about that. Not at all.

All right, then, name three acts that are in accordance with the definition of mankind as the rational, social, mortal animal, and hence in accord with the nature of the species, that are not good; conversely, name three that are not in accord with this nature that are not bad.

I recall Tammy Kitzmiller and the additional headaches ID brought to her house in Dover when her daughter insisted that she had to be a creationist in order to be a good Christian. The Kitzmillers are Catholic. Imagine having your child come home at the end of the day and think "you're going to hell, Mom and Dad". As if teenagers weren't difficult enough. Now you have an agenda being pushed onto your kid at school, bringing home more conflict in an area where they don't have the right. I fail to see how this is pro-family values- creating more tension. What's more insidious is these people are trying to use children as weapons of emotional, psychological, and spiritual blackmail against their own parents. I think that's child abuse. Shame on these people, and shame on those that give them a platform.

GAZE

re: #115 USBeast

LEAVE BRITNEY ALOOONE!

Forbes? Not to worry. Won't be around much longer:

"January 13, 2009

THE Highlander - the 151-foot luxury yacht used by the Forbes family to entertain celebs and top business execs - has been mothballed. The craft's full-time crew in Miami got axed last Friday, victims of the sinking economy. A Forbes magazine flack told us: "Forbes intends to bring the Highlander back in late summer, when we are hoping the economy will improve and we will be using the Highlander on a regular schedule." Forbes has already de-acquisitioned the yacht's helicopter, the late Malcolm's collection of Faberge Eggs, a ranch in Colorado and a palace in Tangier. The company's Fifth Avenue headquarters is also on the market. "

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

re: #108 Cognito

So it's inborn to be polite, as an ultimately self-preserving manner.

It's natural, then. What about when men do things that conflict with their natures -- when they run into burning buildings, say -- and obey some higher ideal?

Then they have chosen to expand a natural impulse - to protect and preserve their families, and thus their genes - to encompass the entire human family. Since they possess self-conscious awareness, and are no longer slaves to the intersection of instinct, history and stimulus, they can choose to do so - and often do. I myself have swum a flash flood swollen stream, at the risk of my own life, to rescue a child marooned on an island sandbar soon to be inundated, and swum back to shore with the child on my back. And I didn't need God to tell me to do it.

re: #118 Guanxi88

All right, then, name three acts that are in accordance with the definition of mankind as the rational, social, mortal animal, and hence in accord with the nature of the species, that are not good; conversely, name three that are not in accord with this nature that are not bad.

Come now. You really want me to list examples of human nature that are not 'good'?

There's hardly enough Internet to contain it.

re: #119 Sharmuta

I recall Tammy Kitzmiller and the additional headaches ID brought to her house in Dover when her daughter insisted that she had to be a creationist in order to be a good Christian. The Kitzmillers are Catholic. Imagine having your child come home at the end of the day and think "you're going to hell, Mom and Dad". As if teenagers weren't difficult enough. Now you have an agenda being pushed onto your kid at school, bringing home more conflict in an area where they don't have the right. I fail to see how this is pro-family values- creating more tension. What's more insidious is these people are trying to use children as weapons of emotional, psychological, and spiritual blackmail against their own parents. I think that's child abuse. Shame on these people, and shame on those that give them a platform.

Don't the GWers do the same?

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

They've certainly managed to astound the world with their advances in science, technology, and civil rights.

Not.

I'd suggest that there are few people, taken as a group, as peacefully serene as the Buddhists, as profoundly thoughtful as the Taoists, or as deeply ethical as the Confucians. These are not refinements to be taken lightly or dismissed with a "yeah, but they didn't go to the moon!"

Any meltdowns yet?
I noticed up-thread where Charles picked #178.

Psst: this guy is an asshole.

Not only are we a bunch of honcos, but we're also cowards.

re: #122 BigPapa

LEAVE BRITNEY ALOOONE!

Gladly.

re: #124 Salamantis

Well and plainly said.

re: #129 BigPapa

Psst: this guy is an asshole.

Not only are we a bunch of honcos, but we're also cowards.

There was a thread about this earlier if you're interested.

re: #73 Jimmah

Thought at bedtime:

What if God actually hates Pascal's wager, and reserves his worst damnation of all for the sort of craven bet-hedging bastards who go by it? All the while you think you're playing safe, you might just be making him madder and madder ;)

Nite folks.

I believe Terry Pratchett experimented with that thought at one point--the philosopher finds himself surrounded by deities with clubs, who have strong opinions about Mr. Smarty-Pants...

re: #125 Cognito

Come now. You really want me to list examples of human nature that are not 'good'?

There's hardly enough Internet to contain it.

No, I asked for three examples of conduct in accordance with the rational, social, and mortal nature of mankind that are not good; very different.

Personally, I don't think "human nature" is depraved - that's a prejudice largely held as a result of certain vestigal religious sentiments. I'm a believer myself, but it is not necessary to be one to be a decent person; it is necessary, however, to be a decent person to be a believer.

re: #110 Iron Fist

Why should "everything" matter? You are going to be dead soon. Perhaps you can make an arguement about remaining "respectable" in circles where you consider that "respectability" an advantage. If that's your gig, knock yourself out.

But at the end of the day, Copernicus isn't in any position to take any comfort in the fact that he was right. It doesn't matter if you were Jesus, Prince Siddhartha, Confucius, or a yak herder from Mongolia.

Death is the ultimate egalitarian.

It is myself whose respect I most crave, and whom I would feel most ashamed before should I fail to live up to my own self-conceptions and ideals. And although I will eventually be dead, I am alive now, and while I am alive, I would vastly prefer to be justifiably proud of myself rather than to be ashamed of myself.

re: #123 ted

Forbes? Not to worry. Won't be around much longer:

"January 13, 2009

THE Highlander - the 151-foot luxury yacht used by the Forbes family to entertain celebs and top business execs - has been mothballed. The craft's full-time crew in Miami got axed last Friday, victims of the sinking economy. A Forbes magazine flack told us: "Forbes intends to bring the Highlander back in late summer, when we are hoping the economy will improve and we will be using the Highlander on a regular schedule." Forbes has already de-acquisitioned the yacht's helicopter, the late Malcolm's collection of Faberge Eggs, a ranch in Colorado and a palace in Tangier. The company's Fifth Avenue headquarters is also on the market. "

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Times are tough, I've mothballed my yacht too.

re: #132 buzzsawmonkey

Show me an Asian country where there are not thousands of people starving in the streets, and then we can talk.

Are we talking about agriculture or culture here? Refinements in a civilization, or the distribution of material goods. Very different things.

re: #135 Guanxi88

I would contend that human nature has very little to do with the rational.

re: #123 ted

Forbes? Not to worry. Won't be around much longer:

"January 13, 2009

THE Highlander - the 151-foot luxury yacht used by the Forbes family to entertain celebs and top business execs - has been mothballed. The craft's full-time crew in Miami got axed last Friday, victims of the sinking economy. A Forbes magazine flack told us: "Forbes intends to bring the Highlander back in late summer, when we are hoping the economy will improve and we will be using the Highlander on a regular schedule." Forbes has already de-acquisitioned the yacht's helicopter, the late Malcolm's collection of Faberge Eggs, a ranch in Colorado and a palace in Tangier. The company's Fifth Avenue headquarters is also on the market. "

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

"De-acquisitioned"? Why not just write "sold"?

Is the ranch the one in the San Louis Valley?

re: #133 J.D.

Sorry, just got in. Hard to LGF on a PDA from an airport. Just checking FP now...

re: #138 jcm

Wait!

Is that the Clinton Presidential Library up there?

Forbes is in its death throes. As per usual it feels by trying to appeal to all it may attract more readers. A once proud conservative magazine driven into the ground.

re: #136 Iron Fist

I was a well mannered child.

I'm betting on comment 195. Five shiny new new pounds.

I'll be back later to check.

BiJ

re: #143 J.D.

Wait!

Is that the Clinton Presidential Library up there?

Just the Paula Jones wing.

re: #142 BigPapa

I absolutely understand and wasn't pointing out a problem...just thought you might be interested in it. Hope your flight's on time.

re: #101 Cognito

Isn't that at odds with man's urge to -- since we've already gone there -- to perpetuate society with morally indiscriminate propagation?

How do we decide which is 'decent'?

No. Our civilized society provides a framework within which we may more successfully propagate, therefore the urge to work within that framework is part of that propagation urge.

re: #140 Cognito

I would contend that human nature has very little to do with the rational.

Then you're certainly not an Aristotelian. To me, it's obvious we humans are rational; the degree to which we are rational is precisely the degree to which we "participate" in the perfection that is Man.

We are made in the image of our Creator, the Sovereign of the Universe, Who is rational. We are, therefore, rational.

re: #132 buzzsawmonkey

Show me an Asian country where there are not thousands of people starving in the streets, and then we can talk.

Japan? South Korea's not doing so bad these days. Singapore? What does this have to do with morality, BTW?

re: #119 Sharmuta

The flip side to this is teens gravitate to what will make their parents blood boil - it's a right of passage. It is so much less fun for the teen when the parents say "that's interesting, dear. Now, about the lawn..." From personal experience, the wind goes out of the sails, and before you know it, actual conversation can take place. Now, there are certain things that deserve a mere "hmmm" and no more. There are other things best handled thusly: "You want your nose pierced? So very cool. I'll go with you, we'll pick out matching nose rings"

You know I don't agree with ID in schools, so don't take this as support of it - parents need to take some responsibility for instilling a value base that eventually children (for the most part) return too.

re: #117 Cognito

Not at all. I'm asking for the fountainhead of praiseworthiness.

Immanual Kant was pretty good with Categorical Imperatives. he developed two. They are:

Reversalizeability: If the thing you contemplate doing were instead done to you, would you or would you not be okay with that?

Universalizeability: If everybody did the thing you contemplate doing, would society be better or worse off for it?

re: #136 Iron Fist

And, uh- thanks for being happy for me, but you know- we all have our crosses to bear. I think I've had it both better and worse than others, but I don't begrudge anyone their childhood.

Cool video...

Blue Whale

re: #144 ted

Agree. These magazines will need to print anything just to try and keep above water. They need readers and that will trump any editorial concern.

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

They've certainly managed to astound the world with their advances in science, technology, and civil rights.

Not.

Nor have they demonstrated an inordinate skill at genocide.

Excellent thread.

re: #152 ArmyWife

The flip side to this is teens gravitate to what will make their parents blood boil - it's a right of passage. It is so much less fun for the teen when the parents say "that's interesting, dear. Now, about the lawn..." From personal experience, the wind goes out of the sails, and before you know it, actual conversation can take place. Now, there are certain things that deserve a mere "hmmm" and no more. There are other things best handled thusly: "You want your nose pierced? So very cool. I'll go with you, we'll pick out matching nose rings"

You know I don't agree with ID in schools, so don't take this as support of it - parents need to take some responsibility for instilling a value base that eventually children (for the most part) return too.

One of my college friends was raised Wiccan. In her teens she became a Methodist. Her mother about had a cow. Now she's back in the fold, raising little pagan babies in a geodesic dome in Santa Cruz.

But there's a big difference between teens being difficult and schools making teens difficult.

re: #129 BigPapa

Psst: this guy is an asshole.

Not only are we a bunch of honcos, but we're also cowards.

Great, a grievance monger as Attorney General.

re: #129 BigPapa

Psst: this guy is an asshole.

Not only are we a bunch of honcos, but we're also cowards.

No cowardice here. I do not give a rat's rump if you're black, white, yellow, red or change colors three times a minute. I do NOT care.

Show up on time. Do your job. Respect my property. Do not call me a racist unless you are willing to admit that you are also a racist.

Is this thing stuck?

re: #157 Salamantis

Nor have they demonstrated an inordinate skill at genocide.

Um...the Chinese?

re: #157 Salamantis

Nor have they demonstrated an inordinate skill at genocide.

Seriously, Sal: You sure you've got no connections to Leo S., Harvey M., Stanley R., or any of the U of Chicago crowd?

re: #152 ArmyWife

I guess I can't comment. I was an exceptionally well behaved teenager and didn't engage in antics like that.

re: #160 Taqyia2Me

I have no problem being a honco. I wear that badge with pride. ;)

Gee, it's quiet in here. No rants, no meltdowns.

re: #157 Salamantis

Nor have they demonstrated an inordinate skill at genocide.

Some Asian regimes have indicated a remarkable beginner's skill, however. Cambodia is coming to mind.

re: #167 Sharmuta

One day, mine is going to call me on the piercing thing. Not sure what I'm gonna do then!

Holder Calls U.S. 'Nation of Cowards' on Race Matters

"Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards," Holder said.

Holder urged people of all races to use Black History Month as a chance for honest discussion of racial matters, including issues of health care, education and economic disparities.

OK, I give up…who is Holder directing these statements?

re: #148 J.D.

No worries, thanks. I found Holder's thread and went on an UpDingathon. I think there are others that might consider him a rectal orifi of magnanimous proportions.

I'm back home now. I tried to post on my PDA from the airport re: Hitchens. Already 600 posts then. I had to put it away, too enthralling. Hitchens in a brawl with street thug Nazis: the mind reels.

re: #169 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Gee, it's quiet in here. No rants, no meltdowns.

Just you wait.

re: #153 Salamantis

Immanual Kant was pretty good with Categorical Imperatives. he developed two. They are:

Reversalizeability: If the thing you contemplate doing were instead done to you, would you or would you not be okay with that?

Universalizeability: If everybody did the thing you contemplate doing, would society be better or worse off for it?

Aren't those rewording of the Golden Rule?

re: #171 ArmyWife

One day, mine is going to call me on the piercing thing. Not sure what I'm gonna do then!

Get the piercing. Then, discover that it is just too uncomfortable.

re: #165 Dianna

Um...the Chinese?

Only to the degree they left their native cultural traditions and embraced alternative world views. As Buddhists, Taoists, and Confucians (the Vinegar Tasters) they were not inclined to such barbarisms.

re: #150 Guanxi88

Then you're certainly not an Aristotelian.

Not at all. I'm a Christian.

To me, it's obvious we humans are rational; the degree to which we are rational is precisely the degree to which we "participate" in the perfection that is Man.

We are made in the image of our Creator, the Sovereign of the Universe, Who is rational. We are, therefore, rational.

Same point. We certainly are rational and logical beings, for the reason you cite. But our reason and logic are fallen from the perfection you mention, according to the major monotheistic books.

It's just a matter of whether you're a religious fellow.

(Aside from which, I must say, I've never turned on my television to discover the news that someone has achieved perfection.)

re: #141 MandyManners

Hi Mandy.

I think some of Steve Forbe's kilts are on Ebay.

Excellent Birds

re: #171 ArmyWife

One day, mine is going to call me on the piercing thing. Not sure what I'm gonna do then!

beat them senseless...the threat alone worked for me...my kids adore me to this day! :)

re: #157 Salamantis

Nor have they demonstrated an inordinate skill at genocide.

Some of the less nice parts of Chinese history also come to mind, as does Japan's last big imperial push, and, well, we probably won't know for decades to come just what the hell has gone down in North Korea.

re: #100 Salamantis

From the existential exigencies that emerge and arise from a contemplation of my ground situation as a self-consciously aware and spatiotemporally finite being, surrounded by others similar to but not identical with myself, with whom I have a varying set of relations, and with whom I wish to coexist in peace, liberty, security and prosperity while sharing finite space and resources. To receive these things, I have to be willing to also grant them.

So, how much extra oxygen do you need up there on top of your horse?

It's coming.

re: #152 ArmyWife

teens gravitate to what will make their parents blood boil

Uh ... ur ... you sure weren't around to see me in my teen years.

re: #176 MandyManners

Aren't those rewording of the Golden Rule?

Yes, but Kant spent pages and pages and pages building the logical basis for it.

re: #165 Dianna

Um...the Chinese?

Khmer Rouge?

re: #175 Charles

Just you wait.

Have you got something planned, Charles? ;)

re: #162 buzzsawmonkey

You can't enlighten a group.

I don't think.

re: #175 Charles

Just you wait.

Heh.

I've got an early Sophia Loren movie loaded in the player. The siren song is calling.

re: #179 Cognito

Same point. We certainly are rational and logical beings, for the reason you cite. But our reason and logic are fallen from the perfection you mention, according to the major monotheistic books.

It's just a matter of whether you're a religious fellow.

(Aside from which, I must say, I've never turned on my television to discover the news that someone has achieved perfection.)

Nor will you - that's the mortal bit.

As for the Fallen bit - eh, so we gotta work at the perfect cognition enjoyed by Adam our father and glimpses of which were afforded the Prophets - so be it. But there's nothing in good, sound Aristotelianism that is incompatible with revelation.

re: #178 Guanxi88

'No True Scotsman.'

Good point, even so.

re: #180 ted

Hi Mandy.

I think some of Steve Forbe's kilts are on Ebay.

I'll pass.

re: #156 freetoken

Agree. These magazines will need to print anything just to try and keep above water. They need readers and that will trump any editorial concern.

Or, like the MSM, they swing hard left to appeal to the psychos: Newsweek, CBS, CNN, PBS, etc.

re: #173 jorline

Holder Calls U.S. 'Nation of Cowards' on Race Matters

OK, I give up… to whom is Holder directing these statements?

/FIFY

The answer is obvious: You! The person to whom Holder is speaking is jorline.

/is it time for Kumbaya yet?

re: #178 Guanxi88

Only to the degree they left their native cultural traditions and embraced alternative world views. As Buddhists, Taoists, and Confucians (the Vinegar Tasters) they were not inclined to such barbarisms.

It's not really my field, but I think you're painting much too rosy a picture.

There is no group of human beings that has not behaved abominably.

re: #172 buzzsawmonkey

To the extent that these Eastern countries are ensuring that their citizens are not sleeping in the streets, it is directly proportional to their having adopted Western values about the worth of the individual. That has everything to do with morality.

Hold on. Make a distinction here between poverty and indifference to the worth of the individual.

re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of the less nice parts of Chinese history also come to mind, as does Japan's last big imperial push, and, well, we probably won't know for decades to come just what the hell has gone down in North Korea.

Chinese history since WWII - Communist (a western import)

Imperial Japan - Shintoism on steroids (not Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism)

the NorK's - Madness, totalitarian cult of personality - communism on acid.

re: #162 buzzsawmonkey

OK, let's talk "culture." What Eastern philosophy says anything about the value of the individual human being?

Zen Buddhism is totaslly about the value of the individual human being, and the individual perspective. Each Zen master has their own peculiar Zen, and you can only become a Zen master when you have advanced enough in understanding to be able to develop your own.

D.T. Suzuki describes Zen as "radical empiricism"; William James, a strong influence upon Edmund Husserl, the founder of phenomenology, gave his method the exact same label.

I'm always amused by the idea that the ability to perform brain surgery equates to intelligence. As if to be a kidney surgeon you had to have an enormous bladder.

The ability to learn to tell the parts of the brain apart and call them by their Latin names, and to successfully manipulate them so as, for instance, to excise a tumor, is on a par with being a very skilled electrician-cum-plumber. Why it should indicate any special brilliance beyond that is puzzling.

re: #195 Cognito

'No True Scotsman.'

Good point, even so.

Very fair point; it is an easy error to fall into.

re: #196 Iron Fist

I have no need to rant or meltdown. I'm just rather amused that the Atheist is the one making the arguement abut "greater good" and living up to some idealized version of oneself.

I've played with a much more, for want of a better word, colorful segment of society.

My comment was in the context of montersj at the bottom of the Dawkins thread. Yum yum.

re: #199 freetoken

/FIFY

The answer is obvious: You! The person to whom Holder is speaking is jorline.

/is it time for Kumbaya yet?

It is never time for Kumbaya.

re: #189 MandyManners

Khmer Rouge?

I carefully blocked that thought.

Ugh!

re: #163 USBeast

According to Holder, if you don't go home and hang out with people from some other race, you're a coward.

My wife is a minority! Glad I'm approved. Then again, I'm a minority where I live, so she's approved. Whew, cool. Don't want to be on the bad list.

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

In the West, that is called "wanking."

I wank therefore I am...

Designer babies, coming soon.

Everyone please sign up to the LGF page on Facebook. We are trying to get to 300 members. We now have 226.

re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of the less nice parts of Chinese history also come to mind, as does Japan's last big imperial push, and, well, we probably won't know for decades to come just what the hell has gone down in North Korea.

Mao was no Buddhist; he was Communist. Japan was Shinto. North Korea is in the grip of a monarchial totalitarian personality cult, centered around a dogma called Juche.

re: #202 Guanxi88

Chinese history since WWII - Communist (a western import)

Imperial Japan - Shintoism on steroids (not Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism)

the NorK's - Madness, totalitarian cult of personality - communism on acid.

Wait, are we arguing that Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism don't lead to genocide? I am basically down with that.

re: #211 Dianna

I carefully blocked that thought.

Ugh!

I had a neighbor that survived them.

re: #200 Dianna

There is no group of human beings that has not behaved abominably.

Oh, I'll agree with you on that, but it takes some real effort to gin up evil from Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism; Buddhists think everything is an illusion, and view the suffering of the world with compassion; Taoists generally avoid action altogether, and Confucians are so freakin' uptight and bound by rules and honor and the "gentleman" ideal as to be downright boring.

re: #179 Cognito

Same point. We certainly are rational and logical beings, for the reason you cite. But our reason and logic are fallen from the perfection you mention, according to the major monotheistic books.

It's just a matter of whether you're a religious fellow.

(Aside from which, I must say, I've never turned on my television to discover the news that someone has achieved perfection.)

Ahem. Are you forgetting our new Messiah? I swear, the adulation I hear for him on the news is almost as bad as the Jasmine character on the series Angel.
/

re: #215 Afrocity

No.

re: #209 Iron Fist

There was that guy John Kerry kept blathering about, GinJuice or something or other. He was Chinese wasn't he? Or, at least asian.

Mongol -very different kinda folk.

Looks like my prediction was a fail.

So now I'll put 50 cents on comment #297.

re: #220 CyanSnowHawk

I did forget him, for a moment.

I think I hear boot steps in the hall...

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You were perfect, I bet! Even picked up your socks. I swore to my mother I was going to name my first child Bangladesh and I would never, ever, ever say no or because I said so. My mother said "Ok, you do that". Needless to say, the 17 year old is NOT Bangladesh and though I try to say "yes" as often as I can, "no" has had quite the presence in my house and I just said not 15 minutes ago "BECAUSE I SAID SO AND THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU!" after being asked 25 times why said daughter can't go camping with the boyfriend du jour.

re: #199 freetoken

/FIFY

The answer is obvious: You! The person to whom Holder is speaking is jorline.

/is it time for Kumbaya yet?

I knew it was me...It's always me, no fair!

/humming softly

re: #218 OldLineTexan

I had a neighbor that survived them.

I am very glad he or she did.

re: #223 Charles

Looks like my prediction was a fail.

So now I'll put 50 cents on comment #297.

I'm out my quatloos too. Time to drive home. Later all.

re: #176 MandyManners

Aren't those rewording of the Golden Rule?

The first, perhaps; the second, no. And the Golden Rule itself is a positive inversion of an earlier rule found in the Hammurabic Code: Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you.

re: #220 CyanSnowHawk

Ahem. Are you forgetting our new Messiah? I swear, the adulation I hear for him on the news is almost as bad as the Jasmine character on the series Angel.
/

I did love Cog's last paragraph, though!

re: #222 Guanxi88

Mongol -very different kinda folk.

Indeed.

re: #221 Lynn B.

No.

Hell no.

Hitchens just got beat up for poking fun at people on a street. Imagine what some of these bastards would do knowing your real name?

re: #212 BigPapa

According to Holder, if you don't go home and hang out with people from some other race, you're a coward.

My wife is a minority! Glad I'm approved. Then again, I'm a minority where I live, so she's approved. Whew, cool. Don't want to be on the bad list.

This is America. Make your own list.

re: #231 OldLineTexan

Indeed.

You tear down my wall, my shitty wall!

re: #182 buzzsawmonkey

Guess you missed the info on the Japanese behavior during WWII.

As I pointed out before, they were Shinto. Shintoism is not Buddhism.

re: #203 buzzsawmonkey

I wouldn't brag about not thinking, myself. As far as not being able to "enlighten a group," well, precisely. Religions, or whatever you want to call them, that are completely occupied with personal navel-gazing are not something to emulate, even if the societies where they flourished produced nice lacquerware.

I once read an article where someone suggested that Westerners who adopt Eastern religions become unbearable, because we are already obsessed with our self-worth. The philosophy is directed to people who have been raised in cultures that expects them to be part of the whole. The 'navel-gazing' quality of some Eastern philosophy is, she proposed, best as a balancing quality to a more family- and community-based overall society.

However, I have no clue what the business with the lacquerware is about, (uh, I like the export porcelains myself) and I'm not really sure what I'm arguing for or against here.

re: #229 Salamantis

The first, perhaps; the second, no. And the Golden Rule itself is a positive inversion of an earlier rule found in the Hammurabic Code: Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you.

Mmmm... actually I'd argue that Christ's version advanced Hillel's version. (It was Hillel, wasn't it? And probably innumerable earlier thinkers.)

The old version makes allowances for the priest and the Levite. Christ's version calls for the Samaritan.

re: #223 Charles

Looks like my prediction was a fail.

So now I'll put 50 cents on comment #297.

I'm all in.

Is #297 red or black, odd or even?

re: #235 Salamantis

As I pointed out before, they were Shinto. Shintoism is not Buddhism.

Yes, but Zen is pretty much based in Japan.

So?

re: #185 Alouette

So, how much extra oxygen do you need up there on top of your horse?

I'm sorry if thought offends you. But I'm not going to stop thinking in order to ease your offence.

re: #239 Dianna

I thought that was Yen? ;)

re: #232 Racer X

Hell no.

Hitchens just got beat up for poking fun at people on a street. Imagine what some of these bastards would do knowing your real name?

I'm with you on that. Facebook has a knack for destroying privacy.

re: #242 Cognito

I'm with you on that. Facebook has a knack for destroying privacy.

Just ask the man over at JihadWatch. What's-his-name.

re: #181 Racer X

Good one, I haven't heard that in ages. Looks like Adrian Bellew on guitar.

re: #222 Guanxi88

Mongol -very different kinda folk.

Mongols are GREAT. I had a bunch of Mongolian kids in a class a while back. It's like John Wayne founded a country.

re: #233 USBeast

Holder's on my List of Idiots for Watch for Further Idiocy. I'm sure he's going to say something of equal absurdity again, that we can all look forward to.

re: #236 SanFranciscoZionist

I once read an article where someone suggested that Westerners who adopt Eastern religions become unbearable, because we are already obsessed with our self-worth. The philosophy is directed to people who have been raised in cultures that expects them to be part of the whole. The 'navel-gazing' quality of some Eastern philosophy is, she proposed, best as a balancing quality to a more family- and community-based overall society.

However, I have no clue what the business with the lacquerware is about, (uh, I like the export porcelains myself) and I'm not really sure what I'm arguing for or against here.

To sort of re-cap - the idea was mooted that as essentially non-theistic belief systems, the three great systems of ancient Asia (buddhism, taoism, and confucianism) were unlikely to be sources of ethical conduct.

re: #242 Cognito

I took a look. In 2 mins I got real names of several long time LGFers.

Scared the piss outta me. There are bad people out there.

re: #227 Dianna

I am very glad he or she did.

He did, as did both parents. No one else in the family did. They were sent to a less-harsh camp since they owned a nursery and though technically bourgeoise could become decent peasants.

Rata and his parents made it to the US from Viet Nam as boat people. They opened and operated a nursery, and he graduated from Texas A&M and works in the space program. A very pro-US family.

Rata and I at one point had almost the same job, so we had a lot to talk about, including the camps. Quite an education.

re: #240 Salamantis

I'm sorry if thought offends you. But I'm not going to stop thinking in order to ease your offence.

It's possible to think without being a preening, pontificating, pompous, pretentious prick.

re: #245 SanFranciscoZionist

Mongols are GREAT. I had a bunch of Mongolian kids in a class a while back. It's like John Wayne founded a country.

Yes, they are fun. They play kinda rough though.

re: #248 Racer X

I've share my real name with a very limited few. I like it that way.

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

In the West, that is called "wanking."

No, in the west, that's called philosophy. But the two are indistinguishable to wankers (but not to philosophers).

re: #237 Cognito

Mmmm... actually I'd argue that Christ's version advanced Hillel's version. (It was Hillel, wasn't it? And probably innumerable earlier thinkers.)

The old version makes allowances for the priest and the Levite. Christ's version calls for the Samaritan.

Yes, Hillel's reponse to being asked to teach the Torah standing on one foot.

138 said.

"Times are tough, I've mothballed my yacht too."

I know. Times are tough. I need some stimulus money. If ACORN can't help me, I'm going to list my house for sale. Anyone interested? Charles?

[Link: www.sothebysrealty.com...]

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Good one, I haven't heard that in ages. Looks like Adrian Bellew on guitar.

Better than weed.

Reminded me of something - does anyone here know what the term "hot knife" means? In the context of smoking hash?

re: #248 Racer X

I clicked the link as well.

Surprised me too.

I guess if you place a false name, and try for obscurity, it might be a little better.

I am signed up with my screen name Afrocity Brown

I did not use my real name.

thoughts re LGF's Facebook page:

I don't/wouldn't mind my identity being known to the respectable folk on LGF, but if I'm going to bite a troll's ass off (and considering the apparent nature of some of them) I'd rather stay "anonymous".

re: #247 Guanxi88

To sort of re-cap - the idea was mooted that as essentially non-theistic belief systems, the three great systems of ancient Asia (buddhism, taoism, and confucianism) were unlikely to be sources of ethical conduct.

Confucianism is all about ethical conduct, innit?

re: #232 Racer X

Hell no.

Hitchens just got beat up for poking fun at people on a street. Imagine what some of these bastards would do knowing your real name?

Well, if you don't have a job and you don't have a family and you have an unlisted phone number (in your local phone book and on Google and on the on line reverse search sites) and you don't provide a real photo, then you probably have nothing to worry about. Maybe.

Otherwise ...

re: #251 Alouette

It's possible to think without being a preening, pontificating, pompous, pretentious prick.

Ouch! Alliteration alert. That's gonna leave a mark.

re: #257 Racer X

Yep. Used to do it, but it's not really effective.

re: #253 ArmyWife

I've share my real name with a very limited few. I like it that way.

As do I. The world is getting too dangerous for honest folk.

re: #253 ArmyWife

I've share my real name with a very limited few. I like it that way.

just seems soo- i dont know--high school-ish to me