Another Stealth Creationist Bill in Missouri

Science • Views: 14,973

Following the lead of Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, who promoted and signed into law a bill intended to sneak creationism into science classrooms, Republicans in one state after another are trying to do the same thing. The latest example is in Missouri: Antievolution legislation in Missouri.

House Bill 656, introduced in the Missouri House of Representatives on February 10, 2009, and not yet referred to a committee, is the latest antievolution “academic freedom” bill. The bill would, if enacted, call on state and local education administrators to “endeavor to create an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that encourages students to explore scientific questions, learn about scientific evidence, develop critical thinking skills, and respond appropriately and respectfully to differences of opinion about controversial issues, including such subjects as the teaching of biological and chemical evolution,” and to “endeavor to assist teachers to find more effective ways to present the science curriculum where it addresses scientific controversies.” “Toward this end,” the bill continues, “teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of theories of biological and chemical evolution.” …

The chief sponsor of HB 656 is Robert Wayne Cooper (R-District 155), joined by Mike Sutherland (R-District 99), Ed Emery (R-District 126), Therese Sander (R-District 22), Brian Nieves (R-District 98), and Stanley Cox (R-District 118). Cooper was the sponsor of numerous failed antievolution bills in the past. In 2008, he introduced the similar HB 2554. In 2006, he introduced HB 1266, which if enacted would have required that “If a theory or hypothesis of biological origins is taught, a critical analysis of such theory or hypothesis shall be taught in a substantive amount.” In 2004, he introduced two bills, HB 911 and HB 1722, that called for equal time for “intelligent design” in Missouri’s public schools.

Why do they always have to be Republicans? Aren’t there any Republican politicians who will stand up against this onslaught of pseudo-scientific insanity?

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1114 comments
1 DisturbedEma  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:36:16am

Not yet, Charles, but maybe soon there will be those who do. . .

2 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:36:38am

I think the Republicans have deluded themselves into thinking that being pro-creationist will endear themselves to the religious right, as if that was really their problem. It's not. Their problem is, THEY'RE A BUNCH OF MORONS. That is all.

3 dentate  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:37:54am

Is that a rhetorical question? The Republican party has some real rethinking to do as to its future associations and direction. Sooner or later, stupid is as stupid does

4 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:38:50am

If the light of Creationism is so worthy and evident, why do the proponents have to continually hide it under a bushel of lies and misdirection?

5 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #4 FurryOldGuyJeans

If the light of Creationism is so worthy and evident, why do the proponents have to continually hide it under a bushel of lies and misdirection?

That pesky constitution is in their way.

6 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:40:00am
“If a theory or hypothesis of biological origins is taught, a critical analysis of such theory or hypothesis shall be taught in a substantive amount.”

Critical analysis of a theory is science, they better damn well teach that and more than "substantive amount."

...that called for equal time for “intelligent design” in Missouri’s public schools.

That is not science, ID is faith, it's religion, not science.

7 tackle  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:40:10am

Because all of the democrats are down the hall writing the sex ed curriculum?

8 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:41:12am

Why do these states feel the necessity to pass this crap in the first place? Do they not have more important business to attend to, like making sure that they've got fiscally responsible budgets? Instead, we've got states looking to impose pseudo-science and junk science in the classroom.

Nice.

9 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:41:56am

re: #6 jcm

That is not science, ID is faith, it's religion, not science.

If you want an excursion into the absurd, a lot of the creationists I know would respond to you, "Evolution is just as much faith as creation is, so why should it be taught in a science course?" I wish I were joking, but it's a comparison I see a lot among those who are uninformed.

10 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:41:56am

re: #6 jcm

...that called for equal time for “intelligent design” in Missouri’s public schools.


That's the Fairness Doctrine.

11 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:41:56am
Why do they always have to be Republicans? Aren’t there any Republican politicians who will stand up against this onslaught of pseudo-scientific insanity?


In my more paranoid moments, I wonder if the current Republican party is specifically designed to give the appearance of a two party system, while being filled with loonies so they won't actually get any power.

12 redc1c4  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:42:23am

ignorance in the schools and Ear Leader in the White House.... what could possibly go wrong with that?

/we're are so screwed

13 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:42:26am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

That pesky constitution is in their way.

At least the Jihadis make it crystal clear they want to destroy America. I do not want nor need political salvation if it means a theocracy as is espoused by Creationists.

14 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:42:33am
15 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:43:40am
16 Pyrocles  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:44:40am

This is why I'm registered as an Independent.

17 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:44:58am

Currently transplanted in Missouri...perhaps it's time for this introverted recluse to leave my hermitage and speak out for reason and scientific integrity? *shudder*

18 DisturbedEma  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:45:02am

re: #3 dentate

Is that a rhetorical question? The Republican party has some real rethinking to do as to its future associations and direction. Sooner or later, stupid is as stupid does

And the box of chocolate turns out ot be only the coconut ones. . ick!

19 crashdvis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:45:19am

Republicans think they need the backing of the religious nuts to win. What it actually does is alienates people who probably are more conservative than they are liberal except when it comes to religion. This constant running to the bible and religion is going to kill the Republican party within a generation. Soon Republicans will only live in the South.

Why do they want to force this in to schools anyway? Aren't the kids of religious people indoctrinated every Sunday when they go to Sunday school?

20 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:45:45am

re: #10 Killgore Trout

That's the Fairness Doctrine.

Equal time... it starts with 50% Science, 50% Genesis creation story. What they don't see is the end result

2% Science, 2% Genesis creation, 2% Quran creation, 2% Haida creation.....2%n creation story .. down to 2% turtle stack......

21 Thor-Zone  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:46:48am

I can't really think of any major differences between Repubs and Demos. They all want to spend every red cent of ours they can and they want to control as many aspects of our lives as they can.

The only way this will stop is if the majority of people in this country stand up on their own hind legs and make a lot of noise about this. The political class is robbing us blind and meddling in things where they have no right to meddle.

22 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:46:57am

re: #19 crashdvis


Why do they want to force this in to schools anyway? Aren't the kids of religious people indoctrinated every Sunday when they go to Sunday school?


It's not enough for some people. They feel that their kids can ONLY be exposed to beliefs that are the same as their own. God forbid that they actually learn about something, y'know, DIFFERENT, and be allowed to make up their OWN minds.

23 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:46:57am

re: #15 taxfreekiller

Should be up on Fox News or some where now, the Liberman guy endorsed Net-and-yahoo .

Yes, it appears Bibi now has around 64 seats more or less sowed up. Obama will be so happy?

24 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #8 lawhawk

Why do these states feel the necessity to pass this crap in the first place? Do they not have more important business to attend to, like making sure that they've got fiscally responsible budgets? Instead, we've got states looking to impose pseudo-science and junk science in the classroom.

Nice.

To the more rabid believers there is no more important business than "returning America to G-d". Seems they want to ignore the Constitution AND Scripture when Jesus admonished his followers to "...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's".

25 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:47:07am

What legislation is there in California regarding creationism in classrooms? I don't think all this legislation makes a difference, teachers always seem to address and discuss with the class the theory of creationism in contrast with evolution anyway (at least my teachers do).

26 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:47:16am

re: #8 lawhawk

Timbuk3, Just Another Movie:
Presidential elections are planned distractions
To divert attention from the action behind the scenes
Like a game of chess when the house is a mess
Or a petty money squabble when your marriage is in trouble
Or a football game when there's rioting in the streets

27 nyc redneck  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:48:00am

i wonder if the republicans promoting these bills actually believe in the creationist agenda or are doing it to get elected.
this overlay of backward thinking abt. science is quite a price to pay to oust dems.
and it is interesting that the creationists have taken their aggressive approach directly from the dems activism play book .
how important are creationists to the conservative movement?
just because they are vocal doesn't mean they are powerful.

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:48:13am

Meanwhile in Washington Huckabee's disdain for the Constitution is catching on....
Blaine woman trying to get anti-evolution initiative on state ballot

Kim Struiksma doesn't think evolution should be taught in schools.

So the 25-year-old Blaine resident, along with a group of friends from her church, have fashioned Initiative 1040, which "concerns a supreme ruler of the universe."

The initiative would prohibit "state use of public money or lands for anything that denies or attempts to refute the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe, including textbooks, instruction or research," according to paperwork filed on the Washington Secretary of State's Web site.
.....
Citing the state Constitution, the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the initiative states it "is about requiring our government to do its job, to protect our liberty, a liberty which has been endowed by our Creator, the one responsible for Blessing us, the Supreme Ruler of the Universe."

29 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:49:02am
30 dicklepre  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:49:32am

I am confused. Part of what makes something science if that it is refutable and subject to revision. If evolution is part of science it is subject to analysis, criticism and review.

To express this as a negative: If evolutionary theory is NOT subject to analysis, criticism and review then it is NOT science.

31 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:50:19am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile in Washington Huckabee's disdain for the Constitution is catching on....
Blaine woman trying to get anti-evolution initiative on state ballot

The initiative would prohibit "state use of public money or lands for anything that denies or attempts to refute the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe, including textbooks, instruction or research," according to paperwork filed on the Washington Secretary of State's Web site.

Citing the state Constitution, the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the initiative states it "is about requiring our government to do its job, to protect our liberty, a liberty which has been endowed by our Creator, the one responsible for Blessing us, the Supreme Ruler of the Universe."

I don't know about the Washington State Constitution but, she needs to read the First Amendment.

32 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:51:03am

re: #30 dicklepre

I am confused. Part of what makes something science if that it is refutable and subject to revision. If evolution is part of science it is subject to analysis, criticism and review.

To express this as a negative: If evolutionary theory is NOT subject to analysis, criticism and review then it is NOT science.

Analysis, criticism, and review is one thing. Demanding that it be compared with a pseudo-religous, pseudo-scientific "theory" such as Intelligent Design, however, is absurd.

33 Manfred the Wonder Dog  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:51:13am

There's room for alternate theories; I was personally enthused about the Turtle Stack Theory until I learned there was no candy involved.

34 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:51:19am

re: #30 dicklepre

Evolution is CONSTANTLY being reviewed and revised as new discoveries are made, and old ones are re-evaluated. Creationism wants to postulate a static set of conditions.

35 stevem99  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:51:22am

me...me.... me... jumping up and down waving arms

36 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:52:08am

I saw a clip of a recent Wife Swap episode on The Soup.

A couple was homeschooling their children because they were skeptics about what was being taught in science class in public school.

The chick started to say that she doesn't really buy into the THEORY of GRAVITY, or that it really exists.

I shit you not.

Will see if I can find.

37 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:52:17am

re: #30 dicklepre

I am confused. Part of what makes something science if that it is refutable and subject to revision. If evolution is part of science it is subject to analysis, criticism and review.

To express this as a negative: If evolutionary theory is NOT subject to analysis, criticism and review then it is NOT science.

Evolutionary science is continually under review, revision and scrutiny. Lamarck and Lysenko have been rejected, Darwin expanded and modified.

38 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:52:36am

More on the Washington ballot initiative....
Washington state kook wants a law to discriminate against atheists

Ballot Measure Summary
This measure would require state government not to use public funds or property for anything that denies or attempts to refute the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe, including but not limited to appropriations for displays, textbooks, scientific endeavors, instruction, and research projects. The measure would provide that no person shall be questioned based on their personal values, beliefs, or opinions regarding the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe.
....
Respecting no establishment of religion, yet with respect to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, whose existence has been declared in the preamble to the Constitution of the state of Washington, the state shall make no appropriation for nor apply any public moneys or property in support of anything, specifically including, but not limited to, any display, exercise, instruction, textbook, scientific endeavor, circulated document, or research project which denies or attempts to refute the existence of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

39 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:52:47am

Here's the bill in the New Mexico Senate:

SENATE BILL 433

49th legislature - STATE OF NEW MEXICO - first session, 2009

INTRODUCED BY

Kent L. Cravens [Republican]

AN ACT

RELATING TO PUBLIC EDUCATION; REQUIRING PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO ALLOW TEACHERS TO TEACH ALL RELEVANT SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION WHEN TEACHING THEORIES OF BIOLOGICAL ORIGINS.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO:

Section 1. A new section of the Public School Code is enacted to read:

"[NEW MATERIAL] TEACHING OF BIOLOGICAL ORIGINS.--

A. The department, school district governing authorities and school administrators shall not prohibit any teacher, when biological evolution or chemical evolution is being taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula, from informing students about relevant scientific information regarding either the scientific strengths or scientific weaknesses pertaining to biological evolution or chemical evolution. A teacher who chooses to provide such information shall be protected from reassignment, termination, discipline or other discrimination for doing so.

B. This section pertains solely to the teaching of scientific information and specifically does not protect the promotion of any religion, religious doctrine or religious belief.

C. Public school teachers may hold students accountable for knowing and understanding material taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula about biological evolution or chemical evolution, but they shall not penalize a student in any way because that student subscribes to a particular position on biological evolution or chemical evolution.

D. For purposes of this section, "scientific information" means information derived from observation, experimentation and analyses regarding various aspects of the natural world conducted to determine the nature of or principles behind the aspects being studied. "Scientific information" does not include information derived from religious or philosophical writings, beliefs or doctrines; provided, however, that "scientific information" may have religious or philosophical implications and still be scientific in nature."

- 2 -


Here's a .pdf link.

40 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:52:51am

re: #36 Ben Hur

Dropped on her head as a baby perhaps? /

41 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:52:55am

re: #31 MandyManners

I don't know about the Washington State Constitution but, she needs to read the First Amendment.

No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment:...

42 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:53:03am

re: #33 Manfred the Wonder Dog

There's room for alternate theories; I was personally enthused about the Turtle Stack Theory until I learned there was no candy involved.

How about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? They have a great afterlife involving a stripper factory and a beer volcano.
But I don't know about their creation story. Maybe it involves some meatballs being stirred in sauce or something..

43 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:53:37am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

More on the Washington ballot initiative....
Washington state kook wants a law to discriminate against atheists

Somebody doesn't understand... establishment...
yeesh.

44 shug  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:53:39am

They have ruined the Republican Party. I think it's gonna have to go the way of the dodo.

All nonfunctional species become extinct, and by embracing creationism, the republican party will eventually disappear into the history books.

How ironic

45 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:53:54am

This is popping up like mushrooms all over the place.

46 Thor-Zone  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:53:57am

re: #8 lawhawk

Why do these states feel the necessity to pass this crap in the first place? Do they not have more important business to attend to, like making sure that they've got fiscally responsible budgets? Instead, we've got states looking to impose pseudo-science and junk science in the classroom.

Nice.

That's just how government works.....the lowest common denominator is the usual fare.

47 shug  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #45 MandyManners

This is popping up like mushrooms all over the place.


because the voters are being kept in the dark and fed shit by their politicians

48 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #43 jcm

It's interesting how they try to flip it.

49 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #31 MandyManners

I don't know about the Washington State Constitution but, she needs to read the First Amendment.

She's equally confused and ill-informed about the WA State Constitution, particularly Section 11- Religious Freedom.

50 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #30 dicklepre

I am confused. Part of what makes something science if that it is refutable and subject to revision. If evolution is part of science it is subject to analysis, criticism and review.

To express this as a negative: If evolutionary theory is NOT subject to analysis, criticism and review then it is NOT science.

Evolutionary science has been subjected to analysis and review for 150 years, and in all that time not a single challenge has resulted in falsifying the theory. Instead, it's only gotten stronger, and now informs every aspect of modern biology, leading to scientific and medical breakthroughs.

"Analysis, criticism, and review" does not mean teaching children religiously based pseudo-science.

51 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #19 crashdvis

Republicans think they need the backing of the religious nuts to win.

I agree that Republican leadership often seems to think that. But I'm not so sure they're wrong. On both sides, the candidate with the most extreme views seems to be the one who uncorks the biggest donations.

I guess I just don't see a lot of people saying "wow, a sane, rational, levelheaded candidate who takes sensible positions that are in the best interest of all Americans! My new hero! I'm gonna go write him a huge check, and then persuade ten friends to come to the campaign rally with me!"

52 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:55:07am

Charles, the explanation is simple:

"Qui stultis videri eruditi volunt stulti eruditis videntur."

--Quintilian

("They would look wise among fools, but among the wise look foolish.")

53 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:55:15am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Respecting no establishment of religion, yet with respect to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe,

Good grief.

54 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:56:04am

re: #47 shug

because the voters are being kept in the dark and fed shit by their politicians

EXCELLENT!

55 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:56:44am

re: #49 FurryOldGuyJeans

She's equally confused and ill-informed about the WA State Constitution, particularly Section 11- Religious Freedom.

I came back in No. 41.

56 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:56:49am

re: #43 jcm

Somebody doesn't understand... establishment...
yeesh.

Somebody doesn't understand a whole raft of words, apparently.

57 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:57:11am

re: #45 MandyManners

This is popping up like mushrooms all over the place.

I wonder why. Do they have a playbook out there?

58 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:57:27am

Their motives wouldn't be so clear if their pseudo science supplemental critique of evolution weren't already out there and pretty much thoroughly debunked. More work needs to be done on tearing down the logical fallacies in "Exploring Evolution".

59 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:57:31am

re: #55 MandyManners

I came back in No. 41.

I noticed....I was looking while you were typing.

60 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:57:57am

re: #16 Pyrocles

This is why I'm registered as an Independent.

I used to be an Independent. Now I'm a registered Democrat. I did it to vote for Hillary in the primary.

61 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:58:11am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile in Washington Huckabee's disdain for the Constitution is catching on....
Blaine woman trying to get anti-evolution initiative on state ballot

Gotta love these fanatics.

Or maybe not.

62 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:58:21am

There are posts on sites referring to it, but I don't have time to find the clip.

63 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile in Washington Huckabee's disdain for the Constitution is catching on....
Blaine woman trying to get anti-evolution initiative on state ballot

Citing the state Constitution, the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the initiative states it "is about requiring our government to do its job, to protect our liberty, a liberty which has been endowed by our Creator, the one responsible for Blessing us, the Supreme Ruler of the Universe."

Criminey.

Not knowing which words to capitalize is a big sign of mental instability, right up there with bad web design.

64 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:59:00am

re: #60 Last Mohican

I used to be an Independent. Now I'm a registered Democrat. I did it to vote for Hillary in the primary.

An undercover operative! Gasp!

65 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:59:51am

Next thing you know, Athiests will be forced to wear funny little hats.

66 acwgusa  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:01pm

We have religious nutters outside our borders trying to attack us, we have religious nutters inside our borders trying to change our Constitution and laws to reflect their destructive agenda, and a tax and spend White House and Congressional Nutters trying to socialize everything! Somebody find me hole I can bury myself in until the madness STOPS!

67 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:16pm

It's moments like this (and they're rare indeed), that I'm glad I live in a state like California, where a bill like this would have less than a snowflake's chance in hell of passing.

68 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:16pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

It's interesting how they try to flip it.


These people drive me nuts! They don't think things through!

Wonderful! They "establish" their god! Everything is peachy until someone with a different god gets in power and establish that god! Where are they then? Given history, in a hole is where.

They don't see the beauty of the Constitution, protecting everyone including them.

GAH!

69 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:20pm
70 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:30pm

Bird Suspected to Be Extinct Photographed for First Time ... Then Eaten

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I guess that's one way to show disdain for evolution?

71 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:34pm

re: #57 VioletTiger

I wonder why. Do they have a playbook out there?

Oh, yes. Research the topic here. They're EVERYWHERE.

72 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:44pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

attempts to refute the existence of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.
blockquote>

They're attempting to refute my existence?

73 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:46pm

Looks to me as if these people have learned from the various islamic groups, just as those have been learning and taking on the language of demands from the various 'human rights' groups.
Now they want 'their' religious beliefs anchored in state laws. They don't even ask themselves where that will end - equal teachings for Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Protestants, Sikhs, Hindus, Shintos, animists, wicca ... but then, where are the equal rghts for teh atheists? Can't deny them their equal rights!

My impression is getting stronger that stupid must be catching ...

74 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:00:54pm

re: #59 FurryOldGuyJeans

I noticed....I was looking while you were typing.

GMTA.

75 shug  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #67 Yashmak

It's moments like this (and they're rare indeed), that I'm glad I live in a state like California, where a bill like this would have less than a snowflake's chance in hell of passing.

unless it was a wiccan bill

76 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:02:04pm

re: #49 FurryOldGuyJeans

She's equally confused and ill-informed about the WA State Constitution, particularly Section 11- Religious Freedom.

Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment,....

HELLO! *knock*knock*knock* anyone home? (not you FOGJ)

77 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:02:04pm

re: #64 thedopefishlives

An undercover operative! Gasp!

Yup. After spending month studying the relevant case law, looking up arcane statues, and running complex mathematical simulations on my PC, I figured out a loophole in the system.

78 Infidel_Jim  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:02:22pm

Almost enough reason to leave the party.

79 acwgusa  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:02:47pm

re: #75 shug

unless it was a wiccan bill

It would have to be a Gaia bill.

80 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #78 Infidel_Jim

Almost enough reason to leave the party.

to where?....give me a call when you get there please

81 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:03:20pm

What is Rudy's position of this? Anyone know?

82 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:03:24pm

re: #73 yma o hyd

Looks to me as if these people have learned from the various islamic groups, just as those have been learning and taking on the language of demands from the various 'human rights' groups.
Now they want 'their' religious beliefs anchored in state laws.


Exactly. It's been going on for a while. Not too long ago The Catholic League tried to for an alliance with CAIR to get a professor fired for blasphemy. Many of these groups have the exact same goal.

83 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:04:29pm

re: #81 Ben Hur

Rudy believes in actual science. It's part of the reason he failed his conservative purity test and flopped in the primaries.

84 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:04:34pm

re: #71 MandyManners

Oh, yes. Research the topic here. They're EVERYWHERE.


Now I'm curious to see what's going on in Jersey.....

85 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:04:40pm

re: #70 Nevergiveup

Bird Suspected to Be Extinct Photographed for First Time ... Then Eaten

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

OMG, this is horrible! I mean, what if it was an especially tasty species, and now the last of its members has been eaten, and nobody else will ever get to taste it again?

86 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:04:46pm

re: #19 crashdvis

Why do they want to force this in to schools anyway? Aren't the kids of religious people indoctrinated every Sunday when they go to Sunday school?

They have a leftist mindset. They, not unlike the moonbats of the left, feel that everyone should think and act as they do. They see we who do not believe as they do as a threat to them. It's really no different than the moonbats or even, dare I say, the Islamists.

87 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #81 Ben Hur

What is Rudy's position of this? Anyone know?

I'm sure he believes in evolution.

88 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:04:56pm

re: #19 crashdvis

Republicans think they need the backing of the religious nuts to win. What it actually does is alienates people who probably are more conservative than they are liberal except when it comes to religion. This constant running to the bible and religion is going to kill the Republican party within a generation. Soon Republicans will only live in the South.

Why do they want to force this in to schools anyway? Aren't the kids of religious people indoctrinated every Sunday when they go to Sunday school?

I agree 100%. Before I started hanging out here, I thought there were no, or very few agnostic, atheist Republicans, or blacks or gays for that matter.
The face of the party to me, was white, elderly, Bible pounders that lived in the flyover states. To find a conservative blog that was not all Guns, God, and Gays was a eye opener for this leftie. Support of legislation like this, just reinforces that old, wrong stereotype.

89 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:05:20pm

The NM Senator who sponsored the "USE OF SCIENCE IN TEACHING BIOLOGICAL ORIGINS" bill also sponsored this one:

SENATE MEMORIAL 10

49th legislature - STATE OF NEW MEXICO - first session, 2009

INTRODUCED BY

Kent L. Cravens

A MEMORIAL

DECLARING MARCH 9, 2009 AS "NEW MEXICO MESA DAY" AT THE SENATE.

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA, incorporated, a nonprofit organization, in partnership with schools and universities, promotes educational enrichment for pre-college students from historically underrepresented ethnic groups; and

WHEREAS, currently New Mexico MESA is in one hundred ten schools statewide and has grown dramatically since its introduction in 1982 in seven schools; and

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA provides thousands of middle, junior and high school students with year-round support and career guidance; and

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA activities include tutoring, advanced study, college and career counseling, field trips and academic competitions, leadership workshops, summer programs, scholarship incentives, community services and teacher professional development; and

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA provides support not only to students but also to their teachers, families and communities; and

WHEREAS, through the efforts of New Mexico MESA, participating students receive the educational enrichment experiences and practical help they need to achieve academic excellence and prepare for college majors in mathematics, engineering and the sciences;

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY THE SENATE OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO that it declare March 9, 2009 as "New Mexico MESA Day" at the senate; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that it hereby recognize and applaud the New Mexico MESA organization for its dedication to preparing minority students for careers in mathematics, engineering and the sciences; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a copy of this memorial be transmitted to New Mexico MESA, incorporated.

- 2 -

And here are the mission statement and "vision" of NM MESA:

Mission
Empower and motivate New Mexico's culturally diverse students with science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) enrichment.

Vision
Diverse, well educated, professionals who reach their full potential as leaders through Math, Engineering, Science, and technology Achievement.

I'm thinking Mr. Cravens is either of two minds, or half of a wit.

90 Thor-Zone  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:05:29pm

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

91 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:05:31pm

re: #76 jcm

Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment,....

HELLO! *knock*knock*knock* anyone home? (not you FOGJ)

Plus, as Mandy so aptly pointed out, "No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county's or public hospital district's hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified."

92 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:05:43pm

re: #77 Last Mohican

Yup. After spending month studying the relevant case law, looking up arcane statues statutes.

Sorry bout that.

93 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:05:53pm

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Rudy believes in actual science. It's part of the reason he failed his conservative purity test and flopped in the primaries.


Thanks.

That's what I figured.

94 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:05:59pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

You mean more so than usual?

95 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:06:24pm

re: #50 Charles

Evolutionary science has been subjected to analysis and review for 150 years, and in all that time not a single challenge has resulted in falsifying the theory. Instead, it's only gotten stronger, and now informs every aspect of modern biology, leading to scientific and medical breakthroughs.

"Analysis, criticism, and review" does not mean teaching children religiously based pseudo-science.

Good point.
Valid scientific analysis and review of evolution would be fine - but that is quite different from introducing ID or other BS into the curriculum.
ID would not stand up to analysis and review because, even some of its supporters admit, it isn't a scientific theory.

96 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:06:46pm

re: #84 VioletTiger

Now I'm curious to see what's going on in Jersey.....

I've heard nothing about N.J.. You can go to your state's legislative page and research.

97 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:03pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

Since Il Douche was elected.

98 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #58 Thanos

Their motives wouldn't be so clear if their pseudo science supplemental critique of evolution weren't already out there and pretty much thoroughly debunked. More work needs to be done on tearing down the logical fallacies in "Exploring Evolution".

More work, imho, needs to be done in properly teaching natural sciences! Out in the fresh air, in Nature itself - by teachers brimming with enthusiasm for their subject!

The people who deny evolution have not the faintest idea about how things look, in Nature, as opposed to their PC screens and test benches.

Go out and show your children what is tehre - turn over stones and rocks and see what is underneath - look at a tree and see what all lives on it - go out into a meadow and look at the different grasses - with a hand lens.

I could go on and on about this, it is a great shame that these creationists are not only trying to keep our children from expanding heir minds - they are trying to keep them from actually using their enquiring minds, from learning how to see, to ask, to wonder.

I oathe them nearly as much as I loathe the ROP>

99 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:26pm

re: #87 Nevergiveup

I'm sure he believes in evolution.

Giuliani on teaching evolution:

Given that Bloomberg ran on the Republican ticket with the former mayor’s endorsement, Giuliani was asked if he also supported Bloomberg’s strong stance in favor of evolution education. In a rather long response incorporating ideas such as “academic freedom” and “freedom of religion”, Giuliani eventually articulated that “Darwin’s theories are a very accepted part of science,” and added “I am a Christian, and I can accommodate that to my beliefs…”

100 Thor-Zone  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:26pm

re: #94 Nevergiveup

You mean more so than usual?

The last couple of weeks I have been especally bummed out about where my country is headed. It is not good.

101 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:29pm

re: #85 Last Mohican

OMG, this is horrible! I mean, what if it was an especially tasty species, and now the last of its members has been eaten, and nobody else will ever get to taste it again?


Wow.

But it's cultural thing. You know, Third World and sh*t, so no one will criticize.

102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:48pm

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Rudy believes in actual science. It's part of the reason he failed his conservative purity test and flopped in the primaries.

I am glad you said "part of the reason". There were other reasons he flopped so badly, but once again it was the Religious Right and the Purity Test.

103 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:52pm

re: #89 wrenchwench

Forgive this Midwesterner for asking, but what the heck is "MESA"?

104 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:07:55pm

The bill would, if enacted, call on state and local education administrators to “endeavor to create an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that encourages students to explore scientific questions, learn about scientific evidence, develop critical thinking skills, and respond appropriately and respectfully to differences of opinion about controversial issues, including such subjects as the teaching of biological and chemical evolution

Elementary schools? Are they serious? I have three elementary-aged kids here, and I get hit with rampant silliness all the time.

"Okay, Mom, this chart has an element named Einsteinium. I know that has to be a joke."

"There can't be deep sea vents. I haven't heard of them." (I am dead serious. We had a long talk about the fact that eleven-year olds do not know everything.)

"Why can't I have an SMG?"

I'm not sure at what age a student has the knowledge to start challenging the teacher, but not at the elementary school level, or that is one stupid teacher.

105 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:08:17pm

"No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment unless you need to clean your feet"

106 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:08:26pm

re: #96 MandyManners

I've heard nothing about N.J.. You can go to your state's legislative page and research.

The only way "Intelligent Design" will be an issue in NJ is if they figure out a way to tax it?

107 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #91 FurryOldGuyJeans

Plus, as Mandy so aptly pointed out, "No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county's or public hospital district's hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified."

I hope I get button holed to sign that petition.... the signature gathering is in for an earful.

I have so much fun with signature gathers, they often are clueless about what they are asking people to sign.

108 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #75 shug

unless it was a wiccan bill

Yeah, but wiccans don't believe in/push this I.D. nonsense, do they?

Alot of people have on both sides of the aisle, Republican included, have for too long simply voted straight party ticket. Looks like those days are behind us. If certain portions of the party are going to push this nonsense, and try to force it into classrooms, I'm going to have to read up on the voting record and/or stance on the issue before giving any Republican party member my vote.

109 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:08:55pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

There will always be an America, just as Ancient Rome and Greece are still around; monuments.

110 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:09:05pm

re: #100 Thor-Zone

The last couple of weeks I have been especally bummed out about where my country is headed. It is not good.

Well cheer up, your in good company.

111 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:09:19pm

Hi lizards...
I have spoken with my all-time favorite scientist in Ireland about YEC and ID..
He can't believe these ID people pushing laws to teach myth instead of Science here in the US. He teaches pure science in his class..
His link..
[Link: coraifeartaigh.wordpress.com...]

112 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:09:27pm

I don't get it. I told the trolls in the Forbes thread that this thread is here but, for some reason they've not arrived.

Maybe they saw the knives, forks and napkins. And the big bottle of barbecue sauce.

113 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:09:55pm

re: #106 Nevergiveup

The only way "Intelligent Design" will be an issue in NJ is if they figure out a way to tax it?

From what I've heard about Jersey, you're probably right.

114 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:12pm

I just have to say that I'm totally floored right now because Chris Hitchens emailed me back to thank me for my post at Pharyngula supporting him for his action. =)

I emailed him this morning. I couldn't be more proud. Hehe.

115 hellosnackbar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:17pm

When I first started reading about the "Creationist/ID"lobby on this site; I thought that this lunacy was the work of a small number of wierdos trying to get their fairy stories some publicity.
But over time I've realised that this is a serious contested issue on your side of the pond.
If support for arant nonsense is an attempt to whore votes from the misguided, by otherwise clear thinking republicans,then their wiser colleagues
should deselect them.
This issue is nonsensical and devisive;a serious political party has nowhere to go if part of its agenda is to corrupt the learning of young minds.
Stay with it Charles it's important.

116 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #113 MandyManners

From what I've heard about Jersey, you're probably right.

That's Joosey to you!

117 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:34pm

re: #114 Summer

Nice!

118 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:38pm

Lawyer: Religion not an issue in NY beheading case

A Muslim-American television executive accused of decapitating his wife remained jailed without bail Wednesday as his lawyer dismissed suggestions that culture played a role in the crime.

. . .

"Culture, religion doesn't play a role," said defense attorney James Harrington, reacting to speculation that the crime may have been an "honor killing." Experts say such killings are still accepted among fanatical Muslim men, including in the couple's native Pakistan, who feel betrayed by their wives.

"It's not an issue in this case," said Harrington, who described the burly businessman as almost in shock.

/nothing to see here, move along

119 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:40pm

re: #112 MandyManners

I don't get it. I told the trolls in the Forbes thread that this thread is here but, for some reason they've not arrived.

Maybe they saw the knives, forks and napkins. And the big bottle of barbecue sauce.

Whack-a-mole. Lizard style.

I'll warm up the grill.

120 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:46pm

re: #107 jcm

I hope I get button holed to sign that petition.... the signature gathering is in for an earful.

I have so much fun with signature gathers, they often are clueless about what they are asking people to sign.

Signature gatherers are on a par with the average voter, clueless is being VERY generous.

121 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:47pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?


That's exactly what He wants you to believe.

But not to worry.

He's got a handle on it.

Reading books.
Shopping.
Camp David.
Outsourcing a spending package that he never even read and let sit on his desk for 4 days.

We're cool.

122 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:57pm

re: #100 Thor-Zone

The last couple of weeks I have been especally bummed out about where my country is headed. It is not good.

You can stay bummed out or you can educate yourself, gird your loins and fight back.

123 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:10:58pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

HELL NO!

In for a rough stretch? Yes.

Doomed not my country, not the ideals embodied here, Life, Liberty and Property. Liberty is never doomed, it must however be defended with vigilance. Now is the time for vigilance and vociferous defense of Liberty.

124 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:11:02pm

re: #86 Honorary Yooper

They have a leftist mindset. They, not unlike the moonbats of the left, feel that everyone should think and act as they do. They see we who do not believe as they do as a threat to them. It's really no different than the moonbats or even, dare I say, the Islamists.

Dare say it - it is in principle the same, fundamentalist mindset. It doesn't matter that the one lot wears dishrags on their heads and appears on MEMRI, and the other doesn't, they all try to tell people how and what to think, figner-wagging included!

125 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:11:06pm

re: #98 yma o hyd

You might like this, yma:

The key to achieving science literacy in this country, and to calming the ongoing hysteria of the religion-science debates, surely isn’t to dress science in faith and send our staunchest believers—and unbelievers—to the frontlines.

The answer, instead, is communicating with the public. While I reject the notion that this process requires coming out of the closet (as person of faith, as agnostic, as atheist), I do believe scientists who want to offer insights about religion need to listen to the questions, the protests, the misgivings, the characterizations and mischaracterizations, and all the while, continue with the business of science.

At least part of that business is offering explanations, telling stories. The stories scientists tell can connect scientific hypotheses with people’s wonder about their own lives. Wonder! If there’s one word that bridges science and religion, let this be it.

[Link: www.searchmagazine.org...]

126 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:11:34pm

re: #103 Honorary Yooper

Forgive this Midwesterner for asking, but what the heck is "MESA"?


NM MESA educational outreach and activities include:

* Tutoring/study skills
* Advanced studies
* College and career counseling
* Field trips and academic competitions
* Leadership development
* Summer programs
* Scholarship incentives
* Teacher professional development
* Parental support
* Community service
* Business collaboration/outreach

127 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:11:34pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Nice!

Totally. Woot =)

128 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:11:49pm

Another fist clenches

Kyrgyzstan cuts key U.S. lifeline to fight Afghan war

WASHINGTON, Feb. 19 (UPI) -- The Central Asian nation of Kyrgyzstan has cut America's most important supply lifeline into Afghanistan right after President Barack Obama ordered 17,000 more U.S. troops to be sent there.

The Parliament of Kyrgyzstan voted Thursday to evict the United States from Manas Air Base outside the capital Bishkek. The United States will have 180 days to evacuate the facilities and lose its key refueling base to supply forces in Afghanistan.

This pending expulsion of U.S. forces from Manas is a huge humiliation for the United States in Central Asia and marks a sea change in Russia's attitude toward the long-running U.S. and NATO war against the Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan. It also serves notice that Obama's "surge" policy in Afghanistan is in dire trouble even as he launches it.

129 ThinkRight  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:12:08pm

re: #78 Infidel_Jim

Almost enough reason to leave the party.


Yeah thats the ticket
Obama needs all the support he can get

130 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:12:15pm

re: #112 MandyManners

I don't get it. I told the trolls in the Forbes thread that this thread is here but, for some reason they've not arrived.

Maybe they saw the knives, forks and napkins. And the big bottle of barbecue sauce.

I've got the menu out:

Roast Gamey Buttock of Troll
BBQ Troll
Hot Moby Wings with Celery and Blue Cheese Dip
Sock Puppet Salad with Chunks of Funk
Fried Troll with 11 herbs and spices
Troll and Chips
London Broiled Moby

131 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:12:48pm

re: #88 avanti

I agree 100%. Before I started hanging out here, I thought there were no, or very few agnostic, atheist Republicans, or blacks or gays for that matter.
The face of the party to me, was white, elderly, Bible pounders that lived in the flyover states. To find a conservative blog that was not all Guns, God, and Gays was a eye opener for this leftie. Support of legislation like this, just reinforces that old, wrong stereotype.

That's because of two things.
1) That's how the media portrays the party as a whole, which to some extent is only natural, as the media LOVES drama. . .
2) The most dramatic, over-the-top positions of a party or particular politician are the ones guaranteed to be trumpeted far and wide.

Fact is, Republicans are as varied as Democrats. . .and with the recent determination of a portion of the party to push so-con issues, we're even starting to have our share of infighting.

132 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:13:34pm

re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But the world is gonna love us again. Can you feel the love yet?

133 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:13:48pm

Tribute to the battle of Iwo Jima


Tribute to all the Marines and Navy Corpsmen that served on Iwo Jima


19 February 1945-26 March 1945

134 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:14:03pm

re: #130 Honorary Yooper

Sock Puppet Salad with Chunks of Funk

That's just nasty.

135 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:14:10pm

re: #85 Last Mohican

OMG, this is horrible! I mean, what if it was an especially tasty species, and now the last of its members has been eaten, and nobody else will ever get to taste it again?

I can just hear it now : ". . . . Hey John, John, . . .come over here and try these wings" [says the national geographic camera man]

136 redc1c4  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:14:13pm

re: #45 MandyManners

This is popping up like mushrooms all over the place.

that's what happens when you start spreading horseshit around.

137 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #96 MandyManners

The only thing they're doing in NJ at the moment is raising taxes and bankrupting the state. If there's an ID measure in the legislature, I haven't seen it reported or have it show up in a search of introduced legislation.

138 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:14:29pm

re: #130 Honorary Yooper

I've got the menu out:

Roast Gamey Buttock of Troll
BBQ Troll
Hot Moby Wings with Celery and Blue Cheese Dip
Sock Puppet Salad with Chunks of Funk
Fried Troll with 11 herbs and spices
Troll and Chips
London Broiled Moby

Shoot, I forgot the special of the day:
BBQ Sacred Cow Brisket

139 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:15:00pm

Has everyone been keeping tabs on their state legislators over this issue?

140 Steve Rogers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:15:03pm

William Buckley saved the Republican Party from the nutty "Birchers" back in the 50s. Where is the 21st Century's William Buckley to save the Republican Party from the nutty "creationists" of today? Because if the Republican Party doesn't get one soon, the Democrats will continue to win by default in nearly every election.

141 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:15:03pm

re: #122 MandyManners

You can stay bummed out or you can educate yourself, gird your loins and fight back.

Attagirl!

142 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:15:24pm

re: #132 Nevergiveup

But the world is gonna love us again. Can you feel the love yet?

Is that what the pounding sensation in my ass is?

143 redc1c4  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:15:26pm

re: #119 thedopefishlives

Whack-a-mole. Lizard style.

I'll warm up the grill.

the beer is on ice......

/all we need now is some rowdy friends %-)

144 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:15:39pm

You can believe anything you want. This is the United States of America.
But as someone who was killed in a car accident last fall, I have some differnt ideas.
How do you know what happened when you are already dead? How do you know things that happened when you are in a comma for 3 months?
Think about it.
There is a reason I came back.
It is a long trip back from the purly gates.

145 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:16:03pm

re: #133 Dustyvet

Tribute to the battle of Iwo Jima

Tribute to all the Marines and Navy Corpsmen that served on Iwo Jima

19 February 1945-26 March 1945


[Video]

read Flags of Our Fathers...probably already have tho...great book imo

146 nyc redneck  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:16:18pm

re: #118 Killian Bundy

Lawyer: Religion not an issue in NY beheading case

/nothing to see here, move along

it is such a blatant lie that chopping off the wife's head had nothing to do w/ "religion."
people have enough sense and information abt. islam now to realize this.
the husband is a moslem, the wife wanted a divorce, islam calls for a head chop.
only ropers do this.

147 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:16:20pm

re: #133 Dustyvet

To my Dad: First Unit landed, Recon, 4th Marines.

148 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:16:24pm

The anti-ID folks would be good leftists that masquerade as tolerant enlightned souls. I don't have much opinion either way but the intolerance is something you see on HuffPo.

Alienating people of faith within your party is really intelligent. Teaching alternative theories is hardly an issue of national security and yet, like moonbats, you work yourselves up into a frothy lather. As I read these ID comments from time to time I have to remind myself that I am on LGF and not Kos.

149 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:16:27pm

re: #137 lawhawk

It's even easier if you search by subject and drill down to education-curricula

150 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:17:01pm

re: #130 Honorary Yooper

I've got the menu out:

Roast Gamey Buttock of Troll
BBQ Troll
Hot Moby Wings with Celery and Blue Cheese Dip
Sock Puppet Salad with Chunks of Funk
Fried Troll with 11 herbs and spices
Troll and Chips
London Broiled Moby


Is that original or Crispy recipe?

151 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:17:20pm

re: #102 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am glad you said "part of the reason". There were other reasons he flopped so badly, but once again it was the Religious Right and the Purity Test.

In my opinion, Rudy blew it badly, by incessantly harping on 9/11 all the time. We get it, it's his brand, and it's how America got to know him. But long before 9/11, he was, in my opinion, the greatest American political leader of our time. He's a policy wonk, a managerial genius, and a courageous and principled leader on issues ranging from health care policy to trash collection. But even I got really sick of hearing him talk about 9/11 all the time.

That said, if he had presented himself more effectively in the early stages, I think he would have eventually run into the same problem McCain did: the Republican pursestrings just weren't going to loosen for a political moderate. Although he might not have run into the other problem that McCain had: an utter refusal to campaign for the presidency, and a stubborn desire to ensure that his opponent won.

152 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:17:27pm

re: #147 Nevergiveup

To my Dad: First Unit landed, Recon, 4th Marines.

Semper Fi

153 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:17:52pm

I wrote Michael Steele last week asking what his and the party's position was on creationism. Haven't heard back. I stopped holding my breath. I also wrote a separate email stating that the Republicans needed a secular face. Somebody who would stand up to this anti-science malarkey so the perception would be that not every republican believed in this anti-science crap.

154 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:18:05pm

re: #137 lawhawk

The only thing they're doing in NJ at the moment is raising taxes and bankrupting the state. If there's an ID measure in the legislature, I haven't seen it reported or have it show up in a search of introduced legislation.


Yeah, I just did a few key word searches and turned up nothing.

On the other hand, there is some really stupid stuff in here--looks like all Ipods will contain a warning about volume and hearing loss....

155 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:18:08pm

re: #148 EtheWise

I'm a creationist and an evangelical Christian, and yet I do not support the teaching of Intelligent Design. It will only serve to weaken our already terrible education system by promoting "belief" over critical thinking and analysis.

156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:18:15pm

re: #148 EtheWise

Resisting subvertion of the Constitution IS part and parcel of National Security. I want NO part of any theocracy.

157 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:18:37pm

re: #133 Dustyvet

Tribute to the battle of Iwo Jima

Tribute to all the Marines and Navy Corpsmen that served on Iwo Jima

19 February 1945-26 March 1945


[Video]

I took my wife shopping at a Walmart. An elderly gentleman wearing a WWII Navy Veteran hat was the greeter. I chatted with him for a while being knowledgeable enough to ask specific question I got past his reticence to talk about him self, he'd rather answer honestly than dissemble.

I found out he was a Beachmaster on Iwo. It was such an honor to shake his hand.

158 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:19:24pm

Oh boy, now Obama is in Canada trying to rip up NAFTA. The markets will love that.

/the socialist jerk's a one man economic wrecking crew

159 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:19:29pm

re: #131 Yashmak

That's because of two things.
1) That's how the media portrays the party as a whole, which to some extent is only natural, as the media LOVES drama. . .
2) The most dramatic, over-the-top positions of a party or particular politician are the ones guaranteed to be trumpeted far and wide.

Fact is, Republicans are as varied as Democrats. . .and with the recent determination of a portion of the party to push so-con issues, we're even starting to have our share of infighting.

So true, and the ID debate is red meat to the media that can be used to make all of you look silly.

160 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:19:29pm

re: #148 EtheWise

You're apparently not reading very closely.

161 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:19:30pm

re: #155 thedopefishlives

I'm a creationist and an evangelical Christian, and yet I do not support the teaching of Intelligent Design. It will only serve to weaken our already terrible education system by promoting "belief" over critical thinking and analysis.

DING!

162 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:20:17pm

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

163 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:20:23pm

re: #159 avanti

So we should give up and let America be Socialized? Not a chance.

164 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:20:23pm

re: #125 scottishbuzzsaw

Hiya {scottie}!
Thanks for that link - hearted it!
Yes, the wonder, for quite a number of children, to start with, does come when taught well.
It is even better when students at college level are being taken outdoors and shown plants, animals, the small, everyday living things - and told how it hangs together.
However - its got to be done by someone who is totally enthusiastic about this, and doesn't mind if they think he or she is ever so slightly round the bend.
And the best is - one doesn't even have to bring religion into this ...

165 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:20:25pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

Doomed? Why?

166 godfrey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:20:27pm
Aren’t there any Republican politicians who will stand up against this onslaught of pseudo-scientific insanity?

There had better be.

167 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:20:29pm

re: #159 avanti

So true, and the ID debate is red meat to the media that can be used to make all of you look silly.

I don't need any help looking silly, thank you...

;-)

168 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:21:44pm

re: #164 yma o hyd

And the best is - one doesn't even have to bring religion into this ...

Absolutely!

169 gymmom  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:21:46pm

OT: I use safari on an iMac. When I click on LGF the usual front page comes on, then it switches to links. I have to click on headlines to get to the blog. Is this happening to anyone else? Any suggestions?
Thanks.

170 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:21:46pm

Wrench Wench, you're probably right. I don't spend much time on comment threads. Thankfully.

171 quickjustice  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:21:55pm

I've concluded that creationism and ID are distractions that prevent social conservatives from focusing on the outrages being perpetrated by the left at this very moment.

Religious people are being misled by these power-mongers. That's unconscionable.

172 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:22:24pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

Teach them all you like, just not in a publicly funded, state sponsored school in a science class

173 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:22:42pm

I'm filing a class action lawsuit to force the church across the street to teach evolution for one hour each Sunday...

174 J.S.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:22:54pm

OT
Obama is giving his press conference in Ottawa...Obama says he has a brother -in-law who's Canadian...(?)..and staffers who are Canadian...

175 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:23:16pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Pushing an agenda to CHANGE the Constitution as is outlined in the Discovery Institute IS subversion. Teaching RELIGION in the guise of SCIENCE is not an alternate theory, it's deception writ large, and is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

176 ThinkRight  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:23:20pm

re: #158 Killian Bundy

Oh boy, now Obama is in Canada trying to rip up NAFTA. The markets will love that.

/the socialist jerk's a one man economic wrecking crew


I saw that also
It made me think
William Ayers was not allowed to travel to Canada
He happens to be associating with Obama
Shouldn't they refuse to let him in the country?

177 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:23:25pm

re: #148 EtheWise

The anti-ID folks would be good leftists that masquerade as tolerant enlightned souls. I don't have much opinion either way but the intolerance is something you see on HuffPo.

Alienating people of faith within your party is really intelligent. Teaching alternative theories is hardly an issue of national security and yet, like moonbats, you work yourselves up into a frothy lather. As I read these ID comments from time to time I have to remind myself that I am on LGF and not Kos.

Did it ever occur to you to actually look at what ID is and the insidiousness of the Discovery Institute? If anybody is acting "Kos-like", it is the promoters of ID who attempt to shut down scientific discourse on he subject of origins and evolution (two different things, mind you). I, for one, am damn sick and tired of having the IDers make us the laughing stock of the Western World. No one else puts up with this bullshit as much as we do, and it's time we marginalized you! You folks are neither moral, as you lie to get ID into schools, and you folks are not a majority.

ID and attempting to get it into schools violates this nice rule given to Moses millennia ago:
Thou shall not bear false witness.

BTW, who said we were Republican or Democrat anyway? I am neither. I, like the owner of this fine website, am an Anti-Idiotiarian, and YEC/ID is one of the Idiotarianism out there.

178 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:23:37pm

re: #173 albusteve

I'm filing a class action lawsuit to force the church across the street to teach evolution for one hour each Sunday...

I'm going to sue for a minute of organized non-prayer.

179 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:23:44pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

More on the Washington ballot initiative....
Washington state kook wants a law to discriminate against atheists

What's interesting here is that science is unaffected by this proposal as it does not speak to the presence or absence of a supreme being.

I'm not sure I see what this accomplishes.

180 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:24:28pm

Dobson students question Obama's plan

Some of the students attentively watched the speech, giving questioning looks and comments, shaking their heads and laughing at some of Obama's words. Other students listened, occasionally glancing up to watch, while texting on their cell phones, reading a book or finishing school work.

The gymnasium's events were shown simultaneously in rooms throughout the Mesa school, and teachers were given discretion on whether to show the speech, the students said.

The students in the class were hopeful things will work out but questioned whether Obama's plan would actually work to dig the country out of its economic woes. They also expected a longer speech.

Senior Syna Daudfar took some notes during the speech and was among the most vocally opposed to Obama's words.

At one point, when he talked about the costs of his stimulus plan, senior Maaike Albach and Daudfar looked at each other and said, "uh-oh."

Smart kids

181 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:25:34pm

I have a simple question for ID'ers:
How can you, in good conscience, denigrate the Scriptures into being a science textbook? Or a sociology textbook? Or any other textbook?
Scripture, I would hope, is something that you would spend more time with than your 5th grade biology book.

182 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:25:50pm

re: #179 eschew_obfuscation

What's interesting here is that science is unaffected by this proposal as it does not speak to the presence or absence of a supreme being.

I'm not sure I see what this accomplishes.

I feel it necessary to point out that the Discovery Institute is in Seattle which is in Washington State. This could just be a new facet of their Wedge Strategy.

183 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:25:59pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

Creationism is a scientific theory?

184 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:26:00pm

re: #171 quickjustice

I've concluded that creationism and ID are distractions that prevent social conservatives from focusing on the outrages being perpetrated by the left at this very moment.

Religious people are being misled by these power-mongers. That's unconscionable.

I think you may well be onto something here!

185 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:26:02pm

Iwo Jima D-Day casualties:

Casualties on D-Day were high, but not up to five percent of the entire landing force as had been expected.34 Reports submitted at the close of operations the first day were exaggerated, particularly in the number of men reported

--67--
missing in action. These figures were reduced the following day, when Marines who had been separated from their units on the beaches and fought with other organizations during the day returned to their own commands. Corps gave only a very incomplete estimate of losses in its dispatch summary for D-Day, but combat efficiency, which is closely related to numerical strength, was rated very good to excellent for the landing force as a whole.35 Actually casualty figures for this day were later determined to be:
Killed in action 501
Wounded in action 1755
Died of wounds 47
Missing in action 18
Combat fatigue 99
Total 2420

186 Annar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:26:09pm

The smart money should be investing in Harun Yahya's publishing company, especially his creation book, before some Texas company gets restrictive distribution rights.

/sarc

187 quickjustice  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:26:12pm

re: #162 EtheWise

I'm a Christian. You're either a dupe or willfully ignorant about creationism and ID issues. Contrary to what they're telling you, this isn't about religion versus godless atheism. This is about teaching science and the scientific method in public school classrooms. Teach your kids about religion at home and in church. Don't impose your religious beliefs by law upon others.

188 midwestgak  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:26:25pm

Obama and the Canadian PM Harper - joint news conference. No teleprompter. Should be revealing.

189 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:26:44pm

re: #163 FurryOldGuyJeans

So we should give up and let America be Socialized? Not a chance.

I never said that, but I was dinged down in a previous` thread for suggesting that the GOP needs a good candidate and learning to run a better campaign using the net and with more emphasis on how good you guy/gal is and not so much on how evil the other side is.

190 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:27:06pm

re: #19 crashdvis

Why do they want to force this in to schools anyway? Aren't the kids of religious people indoctrinated every Sunday when they go to Sunday school?

Why force it in the public arena: to indoctrinate as many "lost souls" as humanly possible. Young minds are like sponges and can be easily manipulated into believing the absurd. Remember, you're dealing with a crowd that honestly believes that science is of THE DEVIL, that feminism is anti-family, that hell is real and satan is alive and well in the world.

To many here, this is a conflict of science versus religion, to the evangelicals & Republicans behind these stealth creationist bills, it's a religious war. What better way to gain ground than to go after those who may very well lack the critical thinking skills necessary to debunk ID claims? Go after the kids.

191 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #186 Annar

The smart money should be investing in Harun Yahya's publishing company, especially his creation book, before some Texas company gets restrictive distribution rights.

/sarc

HA!

192 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:27:38pm

Honorary Yooper: glad you're an anti-idotarian. Way to come up with your own ideas.

193 redc1c4  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:27:38pm

OT: so much for yesterday's stimulus inspiried rally......... the Dow is headed south again. anyone think we'll break the 52 week low this week?

194 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:27:50pm

re: #188 midwestgak

Obama and the Canadian PM Harper - joint news conference. No teleprompter. Should be revealing.

It, um, it, um, it should, um, be, er, rather, um, revealing.

195 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:27:52pm

re: #189 avanti

You keep complaining yet you offer NO solutions.

196 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:15pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

Sliding non-science into the class room cloaked as science not an alternative theory, it's not even a theory. It's a belief. Do you understand the difference between faith and theory?

Our educational system is already in enough trouble, teaching faith as science further undermines it. And yes graduating kids who cannot distinguish faith from science will undermine national security.

No, we don't need to test the new widget. I believe it will work!

I don't want my son going to face our enemies with that widget.

197 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:17pm

re: #192 EtheWise

Honorary Yooper: glad you're an anti-idotarian. Way to come up with your own ideas.

Just like you come up with your own?

BA-ZING!

198 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:22pm

re: #192 EtheWise

Honorary Yooper: glad you're an anti-idotarian. Way to come up with your own ideas.

Better than taking Gish and Morris word for word and repeating it all over the internet.

199 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:23pm

re: #173 albusteve

I'm filing a class action lawsuit to force the church across the street to teach evolution for one hour each Sunday...


Nice try ,, but terrible analogy
I know that was posted tongue in cheek, but the big difference is you can choose to walk out of that church and go to another. your child cannot choose to walk out of a gov't school class and go to another gov't school class because they all have the same cuuriculm

200 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:36pm

re: #189 avanti

I never said that, but I was dinged down in a previous` thread for suggesting that the GOP needs a good candidate and learning to run a better campaign using the net and with more emphasis on how good you guy/gal is and not so much on how evil the other side is.

imagine if your party had taken this advice....droolers

201 ThinkRight  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:49pm

re: #193 redc1c4

OT: so much for yesterday's stimulus inspiried rally......... the Dow is headed south again. anyone think we'll break the 52 week low this week?


We are lucky it doesn't hit a 52 year low

202 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:28:57pm

re: #177 Honorary Yooper

Sorry I could only upding you only one time for that!

203 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:29:05pm

re: #194 Honorary Yooper

It, um, it, um, it should, um, be, er, rather, um, revealing.

You have the advanced edited transcript. The unedited has nearly a google of stuttering with 5 actual words.

204 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

You might want to take a gander at No. 186.

Once we allow one theology to be taught in a science class, C.A.I.R. will be there to make us teach the Koran.

205 ThinkRight  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:30:05pm

re: #204 MandyManners

You might want to take a gander at No. 186.

Once we allow one theology to be taught in a science class, C.A.I.R. will be there to make us teach the Koran.


Obama will insist on it
/I hope it is sarc

206 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:30:06pm

re: #192 EtheWise

Honorary Yooper: glad you're an anti-idotarian. Way to come up with your own ideas.

How about learning how to work the REPLY or QUOTE buttons?

207 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:30:13pm

re: #118 Killian Bundy

Lawyer: Religion not an issue in NY beheading case

/nothing to see here, move along

I have just one thing to say to this attorney....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!.!.!

208 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:30:36pm

re: #184 yma o hyd

I think you may well be onto something here!

{yma} Hope today finds you well...

209 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:30:37pm

re: #133 Dustyvet

Tribute to the battle of Iwo Jima


Tribute to all the Marines and Navy Corpsmen that served on Iwo Jima


19 February 1945-26 March 1945

THANK YOU!
My dad served in the Navy, South Pacific in WWII. After my mom passed we found all of his old photos and even his dog tags and I treasure them. What an amazing group of Americans.

210 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:30:52pm

re: #205 ThinkRight

Obama will insist on it
/I hope it is sarc

He's too busy fucking up the economy to get into this.

211 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:31:04pm

re: #199 sattv4u2

Nice try ,, but terrible analogy
I know that was posted tongue in cheek, but the big difference is you can choose to walk out of that church and go to another. your child cannot choose to walk out of a gov't school class and go to another gov't school class because they all have the same cuuriculm

not only that but CA for example has done a fine job of penalizing parents who want/do home school....the NEA is a beast

212 J.S.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:31:40pm

Press Conference in Ottawa is now over....(not much said).

213 shiplord kirel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:31:44pm

re: #90 Thor-Zone

Does anyone else feel like we are totally doomed?

We aren't beaten yet. Whether we emulate the Greatest Generation or the defenders of the Alamo, our collective integrity requires us to dig in, roll up our sleeves and fight this battle to a conclusion. I think we will win but it would not change my position in the slightest if I thought it were hopeless. Our ancestors did not spend a million years clawing their way up from the mud and slime for us to turn our backs on our real heritage and give up the fight for reason.

214 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:32:08pm

re: #206 MandyManners

How about learning how to work the REPLY or QUOTE buttons?

The commentor would, gasp, have to evolve to do so.

215 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:32:20pm

Canadian Arab Federation president Khaled Mouammar called Canadian Immigration Minister Jason Kenney a "professional whore" after Kenney criticized the presence of Hezbollah and Hamas flags at anti-Israel rallies in Toronto.

Now Keeney is going to slash the funding the CAF gets from the federal gov't. Nice.

216 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:32:32pm

re: #206 MandyManners

How about learning how to work the REPLY or QUOTE buttons?

LGF 101

217 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:32:48pm

You should not be teaching religion in a state-funded classroom because you will be violating the rights of the parents of at least some of the students. Until the child is eighteen, it is the right of the parents to determine the child's religious education.

I was taught biblical allusions, but from a purely literary standpoint. (I was also taught the Bible, but from a religion teacher, and not in school.)

218 midwestgak  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:03pm

re: #194 Honorary Yooper

It, um, it, um, it should, um, be, er, rather, um, revealing.

The media - this is Obama's first meeting abroad. ABROAD? Canada is a foreign country, don't you know.

219 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:10pm

If all this wasn't so deadly serious the absurd lengths the proponents of ID and Creationism are willing to go would make for one over-the-top screwball comedy movie.

220 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:12pm

What up, honcos?

221 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:18pm

re: #204 MandyManners

You might want to take a gander at No. 186.

Once we allow one theology to be taught in a science class, C.A.I.R. will be there to make us teach the Koran.

Good point by Mandy.

As for Yooper, I have no idea who Gish or Morris are. I guess I am willfully ignorant on the topic.

222 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:18pm

re: #114 Summer

Did he ask you out for drinks?

223 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:53pm

re: #218 midwestgak

The media - this is Obama's first meeting abroad. ABROAD? Canada is a foreign country, don't you know.

Hey, we got plenty of foreign broads up here.

224 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:33:57pm

re: #200 albusteve

imagine if your party had taken this advice....droolers

I think they did. They played the net and the media like a violin and rode the hope and change thing like a big dog, while all I heard from the right was Wright/Ayers over and over. Still, until the Palin pick, I was on the fence.

225 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:03pm

Breaking!
Just received my LGF Cookbook!
Woopie!

226 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:21pm

re: #218 midwestgak

The media - this is Obama's first meeting abroad. ABROAD? Canada is a foreign country, don't you know.

Yeah, it's pretty foreign, eh.

227 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:30pm

re: #208 HoosierHoops

{yma} Hope today finds you well...

Hiya, {HH}!
As well as one can be when the first leaf buds come out already on the dog roses!

Hope you're fine!

228 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:37pm

re: #118 Killian Bundy

Lawyer: Religion not an issue in NY beheading case

/nothing to see here, move along

Not to deny that religious culture played a role in this, but from a legal standpoint it is irrelevant. Or ought to be.

One could argue that hot-blooded Mediterranean types are more likely to beat their errant wives to death, while Muslims prefer the head-chop.

In the eyes of the law, it makes no difference. Murder is murder.

I'm philosophically opposed to "hate crime" legislation. If I kill someone because they cut me off in traffic, the result is the same as if I killed that person because they looked funny to me.

So I'm also opposed to the law taking note of cultural motivations for murder. Murder should be punished regardless of motivation.

If we establish higher penalties for certain types of motivation, where does it lead us? Trying to enforce "culturally acceptable" behavior by law will not work.

As for the public, it will take note of these things. Of course they're connected.

But not in the eyes of the law.

229 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:50pm

They come out of lurking, names we never see, ready to give a brief, but sometimes entertaining battle.

230 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:51pm

re: #212 J.S.

Press Conference in Ottawa is now over....(not much said).

Let's gush and coo over it for the next 10 hours anyway!(CBC talking head)

231 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #225 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Breaking!
Just received my LGF Cookbook!
Woopie!

I got mine yesterday..pretty cool huh?

232 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:35:00pm

One last thing Mandy, I don't live here like you do. Working the reply or quote buttons is pretty low on the priority list.

233 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:35:02pm

re: #221 EtheWise

Time to do some research then.

234 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #224 avanti

I think they did. They played the net and the media like a violin and rode the hope and change thing like a big dog, while all I heard from the right was Wright/Ayers over and over. Still, until the Palin pick, I was on the fence.

And all the left could come up with playing the net and the media like a violin was 'McCain will be another 4 years of Bush"

CHANGE! HOPE ,,,, SHIT!

235 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:35:57pm

re: #231 HoosierHoops

I got mine yesterday..pretty cool huh?

Superb!

236 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:36:34pm

re: #221 EtheWise

Good point by Mandy.

As for Yooper, I have no idea who Gish or Morris are. I guess I am willfully ignorant on the topic.



Good place to start
, tons of links, comments and overview to the subject.

237 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:36:42pm

re: #215 Kenneth

Canadian Arab Federation president Khaled Mouammar called Canadian Immigration Minister Jason Kenney a "professional whore" after Kenney criticized the presence of Hezbollah and Hamas flags at anti-Israel rallies in Toronto.

Now Keeney is going to slash the funding the CAF gets from the federal gov't. Nice.

I guess that calling somebody a whore in the Canadian Government can get a bit expensive eh?

///////SSSS///////

238 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:36:50pm

re: #232 EtheWise

One last thing Mandy, I don't live here like you do. Working the reply or quote buttons is pretty low on the priority list.


It's not zactly Rocket Science. I'm sure if you put, oh lets say 4 seconds into it, you'll have it mastered!

but nice dodge, anyway

239 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:36:55pm

re: #231 HoosierHoops

I got mine yesterday..pretty cool huh?

tap tap tap....still waiting for mine to arrive!

240 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:36:59pm

re: #224 avanti

I think they did. They played the net and the media like a violin and rode the hope and change thing like a big dog, while all I heard from the right was Wright/Ayers over and over. Still, until the Palin pick, I was on the fence.

the donks did all of America a profound injustice taking advantage of people like yourself putting up this novice street punk for a candidate....you get your moronic revenge and I have to pick up the tab for it....

241 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:37:26pm

Egypt suspended commercial cooperation talks with Israel on Thursday in what was thought to be protest over Israel's cabinet decision on Wednesday not to open its border crossings with the Gaza Strip until Hamas agrees to release abducted Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

One hell of a peace Israel has with Egypt?

242 formercorpsman  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:37:28pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Listen, I was ambivalent to this subject before LGF gave it publicity.

I did not have an opinion, because other things were on my radar, and of interest to me politically.

The angle in all of this you can't run away from, like Mandy pointed out, is this opens the door.

Science is apolitical. This makes it political.

243 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #221 EtheWise

Good point by Mandy.

As for Yooper, I have no idea who Gish or Morris are. I guess I am willfully ignorant on the topic.

EtheWise, I think that is a huge part of the problem. Many Christians have just chosen to NOT investigate. My hat is off to you if you follow through and check things out.

244 Unakite  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:38:18pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

SIGH...once again, creationism/ID Is. Not. An. Alternative. Theory.

245 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:38:23pm

re: #232 EtheWise

One last thing Mandy, I don't live here like you do. Working the reply or quote buttons is pretty low on the priority list.

Supercilious nastiness.
Tehhe's no need for that.

246 godfrey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:38:42pm

re: #231 HoosierHoops

Hey Hoops, post a review! After all, this is the site that "fact-checks your ass." We're all waiting for "recipe karma."

/sorta

247 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:38:49pm

re: #228 Cato the Elder

Hmm. I agree completely that it ought to be, but I think realistically we're pretty far away from that. We'll see this reexamined the moment a jihadist Muslim beheads a homosexual in the U.S.

Where's Hegel when you need him?

248 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:38:53pm

In 2005, a judge ruled on Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. established that "intelligent design" was in violation of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. The judge, John E. Jones III, was chosen by George W. Bush. This decision set a precedent which can be applied to any future court hearings.

Any future attempts to place "intelligent design" into the public school curriculum is not only in violation as established by the above court ruling but goes against common sense. It opens up the school districts and state to law suits, court hearing that are not without cost to the tax payers of said communities. Court costs can easily escalate to the millions to argue what has already been decided to be a lost cause.

Intelligent design is based on a religion. This should have no bearing on how citizens view religion in the personal/public life outside of public schools. If intelligent design was to be allowed into the public schools the end result would be a demand from other religions demanding the same in a cry for equal protection. Regardless, I believe that the aforementioned ruling lays out the legal interpretation.

249 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:39:05pm

re: #225 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Breaking!
Just received my LGF Cookbook!
Woopie!

Great!
Hope you enjoy.

Anyone who hasn't purchased one yet, can click my nic and you will get to the blog where there is a purchase link.
(shameless promotion)

250 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:39:58pm

People complain (rightly) about moderate Muslims who refuse to stand up and decry the perverters of Islam, yet when someone stands up to decry the perverters of Christianity for political purposes they are soundly denounced.

251 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:18pm

OT (and sorry if it was covered)

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Cleric holds peace talks with Pakistan Taliban

hard-line cleric sought Thursday to persuade the Taliban to disarm under a pact with Pakistan's government aimed at restoring peace after an 18-month campaign of terror and battles with the army.


Do I see a flying pig ?

252 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:37pm

re: #234 sattv4u2

And all the left could come up with playing the net and the media like a violin was 'McCain will be another 4 years of Bush"

CHANGE! HOPE ,,,, SHIT!

The was the change the voters were looking for like it or not. By tying Mccain to Bush, it was a slam dunk using the change gimmick. McCain tried to adopt the change thing too late and he never stayed with one theme.

253 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:37pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Great!
Hope you enjoy.

Anyone who hasn't purchased one yet, can click my nic and you will get to the blog where there is a purchase link.
(shameless promotion)

By chance do you accept Pay Pal?

254 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:43pm

re: #238 sattv4u2

re: #242 formercorpsman

if you were paying attention I had already fig-ered it out.

255 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:46pm

EtheWise
If I coulds recomnmend a website..it is actually a video on ID in the Dover, PA school system.
It helped me to better understand the issues. ID and Dover Schoolboard

256 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:48pm

re: #236 jcm


Good place to start
, tons of links, comments and overview to the subject.

BTW for those who think there is an obsession....
36 threads with a "creationism" tag in 60 days.

Some obsession.....

Hamas has 132 tags in the last 60 days.......

257 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:40:49pm

re: #228 Cato the Elder

Not to deny that religious culture played a role in this, but from a legal standpoint it is irrelevant. Or ought to be.

One could argue that hot-blooded Mediterranean types are more likely to beat their errant wives to death, while Muslims prefer the head-chop.

In the eyes of the law, it makes no difference. Murder is murder.

I'm philosophically opposed to "hate crime" legislation. If I kill someone because they cut me off in traffic, the result is the same as if I killed that person because they looked funny to me.

So I'm also opposed to the law taking note of cultural motivations for murder. Murder should be punished regardless of motivation.

If we establish higher penalties for certain types of motivation, where does it lead us? Trying to enforce "culturally acceptable" behavior by law will not work.

As for the public, it will take note of these things. Of course they're connected.

But not in the eyes of the law.

I completely agree with your point, but did anyone suggest that there should be legal differences?

It's just silly to make the assertion that this isn't culturally or religiously motivated.

258 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:41:06pm

re: #118 Killian Bundy

Foxx News nearly knocked me over this morning. They mentioned this case and then said ' Was it murder or an honor killing?'
Uh, aren't they both murder?

259 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:41:25pm

re: #232 EtheWise

One last thing Mandy, I don't live here like you do. Working the reply or quote buttons is pretty low on the priority list.

In EtheWise's defense, I had to practice for hundreds and hundreds of posts before I figured out the complexities of the "reply" button. I mean, first you have to move the cursor to it, and then you have to click it. So many steps. I kept getting them in the wrong order.

260 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:41:35pm

re: #227 yma o hyd

Hiya, {HH}!
As well as one can be when the first leaf buds come out already on the dog roses!

Hope you're fine!

I'm doing great my friend...Watching a marathon of Burn notice.
Sure it's got a great story line...But lawdy there are a ton of girls in Bikinis.
LOL! I'm bad..

261 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:41:37pm

re: #250 FurryOldGuyJeans

People complain (rightly) about moderate Muslims who refuse to stand up and decry the perverters of Islam, yet when someone stands up to decry the perverters of Christianity for political purposes they are soundly denounced.

You posted that before and I thought it was good. It is no small source of embarrassment to me to see what my fellow Christians (in name, at least) have done to the image of my beloved religion. And still they argue!

262 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:41:38pm

re: #253 Dustyvet

By chance do you accept Pay Pal?

the purchases are handled by lulu.com, not by me. I think they do take paypal, you will need to click on the purchase link and see.

263 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:41:40pm
264 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:00pm

Oh great. Dow is down over 104 points as I type this. If this doesn't end soon, we may see it at 7000 before too long.

265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:09pm

Today I celebrated 15,000 comments. Still nothing to add to this discussion. But it is fascinating to read.

266 EtheWise  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:10pm

re: #242 formercorpsman

"Science is apolitical"

Tell that to Al Gore

267 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:11pm

There's Probably No God. Now Stop Worrying And Enjoy Your Life.


How did the Atheist Bus Campaign start?

The campaign began when comedy writer Ariane Sherine saw an advert on a London bus featuring the Bible quote, “When the Son of Man comes, will He find Faith on this Earth?” [sic]. A website URL ran underneath the quote, and when Sherine visited the site she learned that, as a non-believer, she would be “condemned to everlasting separation from God and then spend all eternity in torment in hell”.

Unsettled that religious groups were allowed to advertise websites which warned that the non-religious would face torture at the end of their lives, Sherine pitched and began to write a comment piece for The Guardian’s Cif (Comment is free) website, called Atheists - Gimme Five. As part of her research for the piece, she called the Advertising Standards Authority, but was told that the website advertised wasn’t part of their remit. At the end of her article, keen to suggest a solution, she proposed:

[if all atheists reading this] contribute £5, it’s possible that we can fund a much-needed atheist London bus ad with the slogan: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and [enjoy] your life.”

To Sherine’s surprise and excitement, the majority of reader comments under the article were very positive and enthusiastic about the idea, with dozens of commenters offering to contribute to the campaign.

Political blogger Jon Worth read the piece, thought the proposal was a smart and sweet idea, and emailed Sherine asking if he could set up a Pledgebank page, where readers could pledge to donate to the campaign. The Pledgebank link was placed in the comments of the original article, and although the piece was archived after three days, dozens of blogs picked up on the idea and it spread across the internet.

877 people signed up to the Pledgebank page before it closed six weeks later, and Matthew Parris wrote positively about the idea in his column in The Times on the page’s very last day. However, the Daily Telegraph published an inaccurate report after the page closed, saying that atheists had failed to donate enough money to the campaign, not acknowledging that there had in fact been no donation phase and almost no publicity.

To set the record straight, Sherine wrote a second article for Cif called Dawkin ‘Bout A Revolution, explaining what had happened, and announced that the campaign would relaunch in the autumn “with a new website [AtheistCampaign.org] and a more proactive campaign”.

The Atheist Bus Campaign launched on Tuesday October 21 2008 with the initial fundraising target of £5500 which was surpassed in a matter of hours. The campaign has so far raised more than £135000 and has been featured widely in the press (1, 2, 3) and the buses can be seen on the streets of London and cities across the UK in January 2009.

268 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:12pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

OT (and sorry if it was covered)

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Cleric holds peace talks with Pakistan Taliban

hard-line cleric sought Thursday to persuade the Taliban to disarm under a pact with Pakistan's government aimed at restoring peace after an 18-month campaign of terror and battles with the army.


Do I see a flying pig ?

Not in the slight bit is there a poricine air service in question

The negotiations are a test of an agreement that has been much criticized as giving in to the demands of militants seeking to establish hard-line Islamic law and providing them a safe haven.

269 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:33pm

re: #261 thedopefishlives

You posted that before and I thought it was good. It is no small source of embarrassment to me to see what my fellow Christians (in name, at least) have done to the image of my beloved religion. And still they argue!

It still holds true, as I see it.

270 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:34pm

re: #264 subsailor68

Oh great. Dow is down over 104 points as I type this. If this doesn't end soon, we may see it at 7000 before too long.

Looking down at 7000 or looking up at 7000?

271 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:37pm

re: #262 reine.de.tout

the purchases are handled by lulu.com, not by me. I think they do take paypal, you will need to click on the purchase link and see.

I'll check, thanks...:)

272 Lynn B.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:47pm

re: #221 EtheWise

Good point by Mandy.

As for Yooper, I have no idea who Gish or Morris are. I guess I am willfully ignorant on the topic.

Just for you.

273 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:42:57pm

re: #259 Last Mohican

lol

274 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:43:41pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Today I celebrated 15,000 comments. Still nothing to add to this discussion. But it is fascinating to read.

Congrats!

275 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:43:51pm

re: #270 Nevergiveup

Looking down at 7000 or looking up at 7000?

Hmmm....I'm thinkin' lookin' up - remembering the 'good old days' when it was 7200.

276 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:03pm

re: #252 avanti

The was the change the voters were looking for like it or not. By tying Mccain to Bush, it was a slam dunk using the change gimmick. McCain tried to adopt the change thing too late and he never stayed with one theme.

it's not about McCain...it's about principle....BO is a commie thug and you voted for him knowing full well he is a liar a cheat...yesterday you called him an accomplished politician or whatever....that tells me all I need to know about you

277 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:08pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Great!
Hope you enjoy.

Anyone who hasn't purchased one yet, can click my nic and you will get to the blog where there is a purchase link.
(shameless promotion)

Dear Shameless,

It's great! Thanks for all the work you put into it!

278 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:24pm

re: #267 HelloDare

“condemned to everlasting separation from God and then spend all eternity in torment in hell”.


Fire Insurance Gospel. They really need to read their Bible more.
*sigh*

279 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:30pm

Democrats have global warming, Republicans have creationism ... both issues have their scientists arguing they're right.

280 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:36pm

re: #215 Kenneth

Canadian Arab Federation president Khaled Mouammar called Canadian Immigration Minister Jason Kenney a "professional whore" after Kenney criticized the presence of Hezbollah and Hamas flags at anti-Israel rallies in Toronto.

Now Keeney is going to slash the funding the CAF gets from the federal gov't. Nice.

Sweet.

281 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:37pm

re: #221 EtheWise

Good point by Mandy.

As for Yooper, I have no idea who Gish or Morris are. I guess I am willfully ignorant on the topic.

You've taken the first step!

Now, you can choose to stop being willfully ignorant and educate yourself. Charles has a wonderful search function. It's in the upper right corner.

It's your choice.

282 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:44:43pm

re: #264 subsailor68

Oh great. Dow is down over 104 points as I type this. If this doesn't end soon, we may see it at 7000 before too long.

5K bottom is my bet. That said, I certainly hope I'm wrong. The spectacle on CNBC this morning gives me hope.

283 quickjustice  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:01pm

re: #266 EtheWise

"[M]any denominations -- including the Roman Catholic Church -- accommodate evolution, regarding it as the process through which God creates. The Presbyterian Church (USA), for example, recently declared, "There is no contradiction between an evolutionary theory of human origins and the doctrine of God as Creator.""

[Link: www.godlessgeeks.com...]

284 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:06pm

re: #271 Dustyvet

I'll check, thanks...:)

Lulu DOES take PayPal.
The option to use it comes up when you get to the payment window.

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:10pm

re: #274 yma o hyd

Congrats, according to EtheWise, you have no life!

Fixed...
/

286 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #275 subsailor68

Hmmm....I'm thinkin' lookin' up - remembering the 'good old days' when it was 7200.

Wasn't it 2600 or so when Reagan was first elected?

287 A.W.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:20pm

I am probably wasting my time by saying this, but...

Okay, assuming this is all stealth creationism isn't getting upset at THIS stage playing into their hands?

All the bill says is it is about teaching people to think critically and question. So all you do by getting excited at this stage is you make yourself look like you are against thinking critically and asking questions.

If this is designed to be creationist in effect, rather than being obviously so on the surface, fine, then guess what? you have to wait for the effects to bear out. Then you can say "they say this is about questioning, but this is really about indoctrinating a person into a religiously based point of view. They say this is about critical thinking but what they really want is uncritical acceptance."

Because bluntly, on its face, there is nothing wrong with this bill. all theories are subject to question and critical thinking. Nothing is more antithetical to the scientific method than saying that a subject is closed and thereofore not subject to further analysis. i mean, my God, just a week or so ago scientists postulated that we are in fact hologams in 3 dimensions representing objects in 4. i think that's probably crap, but if it was true, how much would that upset certain assumptions about our lives? you never know when something out of left field might really upset the apple cart. Like we find written in our DNA, in latin, "made in Alpha Centauri." something crazy like that. I'm not saying any of that is likely, but we have to keep ourselves open minded. that is what differentiates science from religion, among other things. we look at the evidence, we reason an explanation, but we recongize that we might not be seeing the whole picture, and we recognize that every explanation is subject to revision.

So say to them, "sure question. but don't indoctrinate and misinform under the guise of 'questioning.'"

288 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:51pm

re: #232 EtheWise

One last thing Mandy, I don't live here like you do. Working the reply or quote buttons is pretty low on the priority list.

Well, aren't you the Spayshul Snowfwake!

289 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:45:53pm

re: #282 esch

5K bottom is my bet. That said, I certainly hope I'm wrong. The spectacle on CNBC this morning gives me hope.

Oh man, I hope you're wrong too, but I sure wouldn't be surprised.

And yep. Loved that video with Rick Santelli!

;-)

290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:08pm

Going to see a potential customer. Wish me luck!

291 Pyrocles  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:22pm

Of course not. The prism through which one sees the world has no bearing on one's actions... Doesn't everyone know that?

re: #118 Killian Bundy

Lawyer: Religion not an issue in NY beheading case

/nothing to see here, move along

292 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:40pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fixed...
/

I nivver said that!
I wanna get to 15,000 meself, when I grow up!

:-)))

293 wiffersnapper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:44pm

It is entirely possible to believe in the Bible and not Creationism. Not sure why people read the Bible with such a literal interpretation. Maybe it's just because I'm in my roaring 20s and I don't want to bog myself down with too many rules heh.

294 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:55pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Great!
Hope you enjoy.

Anyone who hasn't purchased one yet, can click my nic and you will get to the blog where there is a purchase link.
(shameless promotion)

Mine shipped yesterday; I should get it soon.
Roast troll. Apparently they are kosher, like mushrooms or fish, at least that was the consensus last night.
I admit, I was surprised, because mushrooms and fish don't have buttocks.
/

295 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:57pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

I'm doing great my friend...Watching a marathon of Burn notice.
Sure it's got a great story line...But lawdy there are a ton of girls in Bikinis.
LOL! I'm bad..

When is that on and what channel? I've seen a variety of posts on it, but I'm not finding it easily on my TV guide channel.

296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:46:59pm

By the way, when I see someone post, "One last thing...". I generally am hoping it is their last thing.

297 TREKrider  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:00pm

I am a Christian and I believe in an old earth. Does anyone have favorite resources for that kind of thinking? I find MANY resources for young-earth Christians or old-earth atheists, but I know of no reputable writer who is Christian and believes in an old earth. I'm sure they are out there, but I haven't found them.

Thoughts...

298 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:02pm

re: #288 MandyManners

Well, aren't you the Spayshul Snowfwake!

*snort*choke*spew*

299 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:08pm

re: #221 EtheWise

Good point by Mandy.

As for Yooper, I have no idea who Gish or Morris are. I guess I am willfully ignorant on the topic.

Then you need to read up on where Creation Science and it's decendant Intelligent Design comes from. Here's a primer: The Creationists by Ronald L. Numbers.

Henry Morris is considered by many to be the father of Creation Science. He attacked evolutionary theory using the Bible, specifically, the King James Version. Morris wrote books with others including: The Genesis Flood and That You Might Believe, both of which attacked evolutionary theory and the former promoted Flood Geology. An early promoter of this was George McCready Price.

Duane Gish is also one of the earlier promoters of Scientific Creationism. He too has written many books attacking evolutionary theory and promoting Flood Geology. A lot of Young-Earth Creationists like to use his works online in their arguments.

300 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:20pm

re: #252 avanti

The was the change the voters were looking for like it or not. By tying Mccain to Bush, it was a slam dunk using the change gimmick. McCain tried to adopt the change thing too late and he never stayed with one theme.

People fell for a gimmick. You're saying "People wanted change", but you seem to like to deflect criticism away from 0bama by saying "Bush or McCain would have done exactly the same thing". There was no change and there was never supposed to be.

301 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:28pm

re: #286 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wasn't it 2600 or so when Reagan was first elected?

Hi Furry! I honestly don't know. It's worth a look though.

302 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:34pm

re: #259 Last Mohican

In EtheWise's defense, I had to practice for hundreds and hundreds of posts before I figured out the complexities of the "reply" button. I mean, first you have to move the cursor to it, and then you have to click it. So many steps. I kept getting them in the wrong order.

It took me a while to figure out how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

303 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:36pm

re: #289 subsailor68

I was screaming at the monitor.

YEAH! GO! GO! GO!

304 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:47:59pm

re: #247 esch

Hmm. I agree completely that it ought to be, but I think realistically we're pretty far away from that. We'll see this reexamined the moment a jihadist Muslim beheads a homosexual in the U.S.

Where's Hegel when you need him?

Good point. What ought to be and what is - well, take a look around us.

As for Hegel:

G.W.F. Hegel
Is less nutritious than a bagel.
A bagel has just one hole in the dough-
Hegel's all holes, wherever you go.

305 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:48:05pm

re: #263 buzzsawmonkey

Well, there are such bills in other states. Missouri loves company.

*groan*

306 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:48:36pm

re: #290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Going to see a potential customer. Wish me luck!

Gettem, FBV!

307 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:48:40pm

re: #287 A.W.

Perhaps if the Wedge Document hadn't been revealed we could take the bill at face value and let it 'play out.' Now, not so much.

308 Lynn B.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:48:44pm

re: #286 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wasn't it 2600 or so when Reagan was first elected?

Not even. It first crossed 2000 in January 1987.

309 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:48:44pm

re: #266 EtheWise

"Science is apolitical"

Tell that to Al Gore

Typical dodge to bring in another anti-science asshole.

310 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:48:57pm

re: #303 esch

I was screaming at the monitor.

YEAH! GO! GO! GO!

LOL! (Well, actually, I was kinda doing the same thing.)

311 Ruebacca  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:49:31pm

Why do they always pick on the Theory of evolution? The Theory of Electrodynamics is contradicted in the Bible too. "God created light!" Not God created orthogonal undulations of magnetic and electronic waves. I could find more.

312 UberInfidel67  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:49:57pm

I got my cookbook today! WONDERFUL!

313 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:49:58pm

re: #301 subsailor68

Hi Furry! I honestly don't know. It's worth a look though.

Oh man! It was less than 1000 in 1980, and tickling 1000 in 1981!

314 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:03pm

re: #279 Mirage

Democrats have global warming, Republicans have creationism ... both issues have their scientists arguing they're right.

And both are religions.

315 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:05pm

re: #300 Bloodnok

People fell for a gimmick. You're saying "People wanted change", but you seem to like to deflect criticism away from 0bama by saying "Bush or McCain would have done exactly the same thing". There was no change and there was never supposed to be.

"hope and change" was the result of some phoney 8 year self hypnotic hysteria...droolers and Obots and juvenile idiots

316 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:25pm

re: #278 jcm

Fire Insurance Gospel. They really need to read their Bible more.
*sigh*

Fields spent his last weeks in a hospital, where a friend stopped by for a visit and caught Fields reading the Bible. When asked why, Fields replied, "I'm checking for loopholes"

317 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:31pm

re: #298 jcm

*snort*choke*spew*

I'm in a great mood today. Cantcha' tell?

318 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:40pm

I did get a book in the mail today, though not my LGF cookbook. Instead, I got another appetizer: Only a Theory, by Kenneth Miller. I had quittea discussion with Mr Wishing about the topic as well, and he just went to watch the Nova/Dover video.

319 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:43pm

re: #304 Cato the Elder


G.W.F. Hegel
Is less nutritious than a bagel.
A bagel has just one hole in the dough-
Hegel's all holes, wherever you go.


Lol I'm saving that.

320 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:43pm

re: #308 Lynn B.

Not even. It first crossed 2000 in January 1987.

I just found that out!

321 Nevergiveup  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:50:54pm

US Middle East Envoy George Mitchell expressed support during for Egyptian efforts to forge a Palestinian national unity government, indicating that America could take a new tack on Fatah-Hamas reconciliation, during a conference call Thursday with Jewish leaders.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Translation for those of you who don't speak Bullshit: The Obama administration will talk and deal with Hamas. I hope all my Liberal Jewish Friends and Relatives are happy and feeling the love!

322 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:03pm

re: #284 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Lulu DOES take PayPal.
The option to use it comes up when you get to the payment window.

Thanks Pre...:)

323 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:09pm

re: #257 eschew_obfuscation

I completely agree with your point, but did anyone suggest that there should be legal differences?

It's just silly to make the assertion that this isn't culturally or religiously motivated.

No doubt - I don't disagree. But the man's lawyer would be expected to make such assertions. It's what ::cough:: Esquires do.

324 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:15pm

re: #317 MandyManners

I'm in a great mood today. Cantcha' tell?

BTW ,,,, How did the kids docs appt go the other day?

325 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:15pm

re: #279 Mirage

Democrats have global warming, Republicans have creationism ... both issues have their scientists arguing they're right.

No, they are not equivalent. Creationism is rejected by nearly ALL scientists, and the ones who don't reject it are all working for the Discovery Institute.

326 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:38pm

re: #313 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh man! It was less than 1000 in 1980, and tickling 1000 in 1981!

Great site! Thanks for the link. Let's just hope that's not where we're headed now, though.

327 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:43pm

re: #293 wiffersnapper

It is entirely possible to believe in the Bible and not Creationism. Not sure why people read the Bible with such a literal interpretation. Maybe it's just because I'm in my roaring 20s and I don't want to bog myself down with too many rules heh.

Some people read and interpret the Bible literally because they think it gives them licence to impose on others the 'rules' they think are there.
Some people like to use the Bible as a blunt instrument - not literally, teeheehee, but that did happen as well, I'm sure! - to clobber all others with it and stifle any debate.

These people are not interested in faith, theya re only interested in power, their own power, over all others.
Just like the islamic 'scholars' ...

328 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:51:47pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

OT (and sorry if it was covered)

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Cleric holds peace talks with Pakistan Taliban

hard-line cleric sought Thursday to persuade the Taliban to disarm under a pact with Pakistan's government aimed at restoring peace after an 18-month campaign of terror and battles with the army.

Do I see a flying pig ?

I don't think it warrants a flying pig. He's after hardline Sharia. He apparently got it within Swat. Therefore, this is a tactical maneuver.

329 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:52:24pm

re: #266 EtheWise

"Science is apolitical"

Tell that to Al Gore

Science is apolitical, as should be religion. It is the use or misuse of either that is political. In the cases of global warming and creationism, it is misuse.

330 formercorpsman  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:52:32pm

re: #266 EtheWise

You won't get an argument from me there. But as your mother told you, 2 wrongs do not make a right.

I have not clicked your football, so I don't know how long you have been here, etc.

Many of us do not agree on every subject here. The one thing you can't accuse however, is that opinions do not get hashed out here.

Al Gore is a moron, but if you employ the slightest intellectual argument within yourself, you will see where you just contradicted your own argument.

331 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:52:38pm

re: #300 Bloodnok

People fell for a gimmick. You're saying "People wanted change", but you seem to like to deflect criticism away from 0bama by saying "Bush or McCain would have done exactly the same thing". There was no change and there was never supposed to be.

I'll amend that. There was change but it certainly wasn't the driving force that got him elected. It was the promise of free stuff. Change was just a slogan, and an annoying one at that. It has become a punchline -even for his supporters (present company excluded).

332 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:52:46pm

re: #222 Kenneth

Did he ask you out for drinks?

Heh...no. Not yet. =)

333 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:52:57pm

Don't worry. The DOW is on a downward trend; wholesale inflation is up; and crude oil went up by 13%.

Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil rose 13 percent in New York after a U.S. government report showed an unexpected drop in inventories as imports declined.

OPEC cuts are increasing at the same time and hasn't bottomed out yet. Adding to this, the Obama administration is adding or about to add a massive layer of regulations which will have a direct upward impact on commodities.

334 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:53:14pm

re: #319 esch

Lol I'm saving that.

Then I should give the proper attribution. It's by one Brian Leftow.

335 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:53:30pm

re: #324 sattv4u2

BTW ,,,, How did the kids docs appt go the other day?

As expected. We're moving forward armed with more knowledge. ('Nuff said.) Thanks for asking!

336 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #323 Cato the Elder

No doubt - I don't disagree. But the man's lawyer would be expected to make such assertions. It's what ::cough:: Esquires do.

Indeed.... he's just doing his job.

337 Lynn B.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:53:58pm

re: #313 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh man! It was less than 1000 in 1980, and tickling 1000 in 1981!

It first crossed 1000 in November 1972, just a few days after Nixon was elected to his second term.

338 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:54:20pm

re: #317 MandyManners

I'm in a great mood today. Cantcha' tell?

LOL! Hang on I'm cleaning your good mood off my monitor!

339 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:54:41pm

re: #321 Nevergiveup

US Middle East Envoy George Mitchell expressed support during for Egyptian efforts to forge a Palestinian national unity government, indicating that America could take a new tack on Fatah-Hamas reconciliation, during a conference call Thursday with Jewish leaders.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Translation for those of you who don't speak Bullshit: The Obama administration will talk and deal with Hamas. I hope all my Liberal Jewish Friends and Relatives are happy and feeling the love!

Dead Black Sudanese refugees not available to comment.

Live Black Sudanese living in Egypt know better than to comment.

340 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:54:47pm

When does science=religion?
If science=ideas based on observable fact
&
religion=ideas that must be taken on faith
then
Where does a system that tells me that I must accept that they know the temperature at the center of the sun, the mass of the universe, even the exact rotational speed of the core of the earth without any direct observation of these items? Would that not be a religion with 'scientists' as its priests?

Now, I believe 99% of what scientists say, but I also know how many research dollars are at stake when it comes to maintaining the current paradigm of reality, even in biology.

Should creationism be taught, NO WAY. But should science be regarded as separate and better than religion? Let me ask you this...Wasn't it the scientists who said the world was flat until they had more evidence? Isn't science merely the religion of current beliefs until new evidence comes to light?

Where do we draw the line between what we can and cannot question in science. I don't know. But I'd rather deal with the silly debates like creationism than quash all questioning of the current paradigm.

Let there be scientific heretics, aren't they usually the ones who make the greatest discoveries?

341 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:55:06pm

re: #313 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh man! It was less than 1000 in 1980, and tickling 1000 in 1981!

1900 to Present (12 Januart 2009) is even more of a gobsmack.

2000 to Present shows the lie of the current economy being all Bush's fault.

342 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:55:24pm

re: #295 eschew_obfuscation

When is that on and what channel? I've seen a variety of posts on it, but I'm not finding it easily on my TV guide channel.

It's on the USA network...It is a pretty cool show...

343 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:55:28pm

re: #338 jcm

LOL! Hang on I'm cleaning your good mood off my monitor!

Y' need the IT Department there again?

344 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:55:33pm

Obama made another flub.

"It's a Great Pleasure to Be Here in Iowa - Ottawa"

I've got the perfect solution. He'll never have to be off teleprompter again.

345 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:55:36pm

Off to the park! bbl

346 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:55:59pm

re: #338 jcm

LOL! Hang on I'm cleaning your good mood off my monitor!

Must refrain.

347 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:56:05pm

re: #311 Ruebacca

Perfect.

348 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:56:06pm

re: #326 subsailor68

Great site! Thanks for the link. Let's just hope that's not where we're headed now, though.

Look at 2000 to Present for some sobering up.

349 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:56:22pm

re: #311 Ruebacca

Why do they always pick on the Theory of evolution? The Theory of Electrodynamics is contradicted in the Bible too. "God created light!" Not God created orthogonal undulations of magnetic and electronic waves. I could find more.

Because there's no sex involved.

350 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:56:40pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Where does a system that tells me that I must accept that they know the temperature at the center of the sun, the mass of the universe, even the exact rotational speed of the core of the earth without any direct observation of these items? Would that not be a religion with 'scientists' as its priests?

Good grief. You can't be serious.

351 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:57:02pm

re: #317 MandyManners

I'm in a great mood today. Cantcha' tell?

You must be Mandy...I'd be totally pissed...
/Not even a piss up a rope?

352 debutaunt  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:57:08pm

re: #65 Ben Hur

Next thing you know, Athiests will be forced to wear funny little hats.

Spaghetti monster hats would be ideal.

353 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:57:26pm

re: #337 Lynn B.

It first crossed 1000 in November 1972, just a few days after Nixon was elected to his second term.

I was just commenting about what it was during Carter/Reagan, as the chart I linked was 1980 to Present.

354 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:57:34pm

re: #342 HoosierHoops

It's on the USA network...It is a pretty cool show...

Thanks, I'll look it up.
/originally from Indianapolis

355 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:57:51pm

Charles, or any other similarly accommodating Lizard,

Do me a favor if you would and send me links to where the argument has been set forth how this or other similarly-worded bills can be in fact stealth creationist bills. On their face, the language seems innocuous. Without the context of the legislative intent, or some committee notes, it is hard to tell if the law could be used for that manner. I'm not looking to argue the substance of the bill, mind you. I'd like to understand the arguments against this and other bills since the language appears to be neutral. I'd like to see the arguments and measure them against the legislative histories of the bills in order to see under what circumstances, and how likely it is, that these bills could be used/subverted to achieve the ends described. Again, I'm not looking for ammo for an argument--I just want to educate myself.

Thanks

356 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:59:15pm

re: #311 Ruebacca

Why do they always pick on the Theory of evolution? The Theory of Electrodynamics is contradicted in the Bible too. "God created light!" Not God created orthogonal undulations of magnetic and electronic waves. I could find more.


There used to be a t-shirt that said:
And G-d Said:
[Maxwell's equations, that describe light and other electromagnetic radiatio]
And there was Light.

That kind of illuminates my view on the matter.

357 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:59:19pm

re: #352 debutaunt

Spaghetti monster hats would be ideal.

Teapot hats would look quite fetching as well ...

358 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:59:22pm

re: #355 calcajun

Charles, or any other similarly accommodating Lizard,

Do me a favor if you would and send me links to where the argument has been set forth how this or other similarly-worded bills can be in fact stealth creationist bills. On their face, the language seems innocuous. Without the context of the legislative intent, or some committee notes, it is hard to tell if the law could be used for that manner. I'm not looking to argue the substance of the bill, mind you. I'd like to understand the arguments against this and other bills since the language appears to be neutral. I'd like to see the arguments and measure them against the legislative histories of the bills in order to see under what circumstances, and how likely it is, that these bills could be used/subverted to achieve the ends described. Again, I'm not looking for ammo for an argument--I just want to educate myself.

Thanks

You could try searching LGF for 'Louisiana'. It's been discussed over and over here.

359 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:59:25pm

re: #348 FurryOldGuyJeans

Look at 2000 to Present for some sobering up.

Heh, heh, that's just what I was doing when you typed that. (And BTW, yep, it does show the lie that Bush "did it".)

360 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:59:39pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

I encourage you to take a course in science. Or read a book. Go ahead, you will be amazed at what you can learn.

361 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 12:59:52pm

re: #352 debutaunt

Spaghetti monster hats would be ideal.

Pastafarians are supposed to dress in full pirate regalia.

362 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:00:00pm

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

You keep complaining yet you offer NO solutions.

He might throw milk on you, but that's an emulsion. ///

363 Maui Girl  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:00:22pm

OT

I was trying to find the Obama clock that tells you how much longer this idiot will be in office and I stumbled upon this. Check it out: [Link: www.obamaclock.com...]

He's already campaigning for 2012!

364 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:01:02pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Do you believe the Earth is flat?
Do you believe the Earth has a celestial dome with the stars in the firmament above it?
Do you believe the Sun goes around the Earth?
Why or why not?
Who told you why or why not?
Why or why not do you consider them priests?

I'm waiting patiently for your answers.

365 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:01:19pm

re: #363 Maui Girl

OT

I was trying to find the Obama clock that tells you how much longer this idiot will be in office and I stumbled upon this. Check it out: [Link: www.obamaclock.com...]

He's already campaigning for 2012!

When does he start his campaign to repeal the 22nd amendment?

366 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:01:41pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Isn't science merely the religion of current beliefs

That's a subjective evaluation.

367 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #359 subsailor68

Heh, heh, that's just what I was doing when you typed that. (And BTW, yep, it does show the lie that Bush "did it".)

I thank you for making me search for the DJIA info so I can use actual data to counter the "Bush's Economy" meme.

368 Ceemack  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:00pm

re: #12 redc1c4

ignorance in the schools and Ear Leader in the White House.... what could possibly go wrong with that?

/we're are so screwed


Maybe..just maybe...ignorance in our schools is the reason we have our Ear Leader in the White House.

BTW, I love the appellation "Ear Leader".

369 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:09pm

When it comes to politicians - SMALLER GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS BETTER!

Any politician who proposes more government intrusion. or bigger government, should be shown the door.

370 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:14pm

re: #350 Charles

Good grief. You can't be serious.

We've got the proverbial "live one" here.

371 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:15pm

re: #350 Charles

Why not. They are best guesses at this point. I view them as very highly probable guesses, but guesses none-the-less. Why must I accept as fact now, what they may disprove with direct evidence when our technology advances sufficiently?

I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion.

372 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:17pm

re: #365 Kosh's Shadow

When does he start his campaign to repeal the 22nd amendment?

stealth campaign

373 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:19pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

oh lawdy..It's in the math..you do believe in math right?
If you feel a need to challenge the numbers..go to this web site and ask your questions..Good luck understanding dynamic Matrix equations in Physics..
[Link: coraifeartaigh.wordpress.com...]

374 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:20pm

re: #363 Maui Girl

OT

I was trying to find the Obama clock that tells you how much longer this idiot will be in office and I stumbled upon this. Check it out: [Link: www.obamaclock.com...]

He's already campaigning for 2012!

Spit.

375 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:36pm

re: #365 Kosh's Shadow

When does he start his campaign to repeal the 22nd amendment?

Please. And I was having a nice day--despite the new tax burden us middle-class types will have to shoulder here. Time to drink some lunch.

376 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #362 calcajun

He might throw milk on you, but that's an emulsion. ///

At least throwing milk is doing something other than making snarky comments and constantly complaining. ;)

377 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:03:26pm

re: #369 Racer X

When it comes to politicians - SMALLER GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS BETTER!

Any politician who proposes more government intrusion. or bigger government, should be shown the door.

Too many people WANT and DEMAND more government, though.

378 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:03:28pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

When does science=religion?
If science=ideas based on observable fact
&
religion=ideas that must be taken on faith
then
Where does a system that tells me that I must accept that they know the temperature at the center of the sun, the mass of the universe, even the exact rotational speed of the core of the earth without any direct observation of these items? Would that not be a religion with 'scientists' as its priests?

You are using a computer. No direct observation of electronic signals can be made. Does that invalidate your computer?

379 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:03:42pm

re: #357 yma o hyd

Teapot hats would look quite fetching as well ...

"I'm a little teapot, short and stout.
This is my handle, this is my spout"...:)

380 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:03:57pm

re: #343 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Y' need the IT Department there again?

I've got 'ole pug on speed dial...
;-)

381 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:04:00pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

Why not. They are best guesses at this point. I view them as very highly probable guesses, but guesses none-the-less. Why must I accept as fact now, what they may disprove with direct evidence when our technology advances sufficiently?

I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion.

I've never seen you before. Do you exist?

382 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:04:07pm

re: #367 FurryOldGuyJeans

I thank you for making me search for the DJIA info so I can use actual data to counter the "Bush's Economy" meme.

Well, you're welcome, but you're the one who noticed that the data makes the case - so gotta thank you right back.

;-)

383 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:04:38pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

Why not. They are best guesses at this point. I view them as very highly probable guesses, but guesses none-the-less. Why must I accept as fact now, what they may disprove with direct evidence when our technology advances sufficiently?

I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion.

Problem is, there is evidence, even direct evidence if you take a look around. Googling is a wonderful tool. Please use it to find the evidence, of which a massive amount is published online, and get back to us.

384 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:04:57pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

Do not assume that you are actually typing on a computer right now.

385 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:05:01pm

re: #68 jcm

These people drive me nuts! They don't think things through!

Wonderful! They "establish" their god! Everything is peachy until someone with a different god gets in power and establish that god! Where are they then? Given history, in a hole is where.

They don't see the beauty of the Constitution, protecting everyone including them.

GAH!


Obama and his Unicorn.

386 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:05:38pm

The Republicans in office in Missouri are arguably the worst Republicans in the nation. Here on the Gulf, we just have morons. Missouri Republican officeholders are actively evil.

Check out their candidate for governor last year: the Nifong of the Mississippi, one Kenny Hulshof. Hulshof, while a prosecuting attorney, sent a man to 17 years in prison for a murder he didn't do. Missouri calls itself the "show-me state" but, apparently, that doesn't guarantee they'll show you any evidence if you end up in court there. Hulshof even lied in the closing statement.

I hardly need to mention Hulshof's position on Intelligent Design. Must I?

Missouri also has the Blunt family, about which the less said the better.

The Republicans in Missouri seriously need to clean house.

387 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:05:48pm

Dragonwolf has made 2 posts his entire time here, starting last Oct. I'm guessing the likelihood of him replying to any of the questions posed him is statisically zero.

388 Ruebacca  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #297 TREKrider

I am a Christian and I believe in an old earth. Does anyone have favorite resources for that kind of thinking? I find MANY resources for young-earth Christians or old-earth atheists, but I know of no reputable writer who is Christian and believes in an old earth. I'm sure they are out there, but I haven't found them.

Thoughts...

The evidence speaks for it's self and detached from theology, but not philosophy. You need a rational philosophy that the physical world works in describe and repeatable ways. For example if physical processes are not repeatible then thair is no technology. If your world view is everyting is the will and at the wym of Allah then your not going to be a good resurcher.

So it is phylosphy not religion thats the proble. The industrial revolution in England was driven by Methodists. These were and are strong Christians but they see the world in a rational way.

389 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:06:13pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Isn't science merely the religion of current beliefs?

No, science is not about beliefs. It's based upon observable facts and measurements.

390 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:06:19pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

Why not. They are best guesses at this point. I view them as very highly probable guesses, but guesses none-the-less. Why must I accept as fact now, what they may disprove with direct evidence when our technology advances sufficiently?

I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion.

They-do-not!

With the exception of axioms, nothing in scoence is taken as gospel truth.

I think you are confusing journalists and perhaps some teachers with scientists.

391 bulwrk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:06:47pm

So will Missouri now be known as the you don't have too show me state?

392 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:06:48pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Let me ask you this...Wasn't it the scientists who said the world was flat until they had more evidence? Isn't science merely the religion of current beliefs until new evidence comes to light?

No and no.

You really don't have a clue as to what is meant by the scientific method.

393 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:06:51pm

re: #387 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dragonwolf has made 2 posts his entire time here, starting last Oct. I'm guessing the likelihood of him replying to any of the questions posed him is statisically zero.

Just drops in once in a while to sell wolf cookies...

/S

394 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:07:14pm

re: #387 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dragonwolf has made 2 posts his entire time here, starting last Oct. I'm guessing the likelihood of him replying to any of the questions posed him is statisically zero.

SCIENCE!

395 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:07:24pm

re: #387 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dragonwolf has made 2 posts his entire time here, starting last Oct. I'm guessing the likelihood of him replying to any of the questions posed him is statisically zero.

That makes you a Priest of the religion of Kragarian Orthodox.

396 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:07:27pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion.

IMHO, that's a very shallow criteria for defining religion.

For example, it could lead to (with sarc) "The Religion of OSHA", because if there's anything which wants you to take their pronouncements as gospel ... OSHA's definitely it.

397 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:07:39pm

re: #391 bulwrk

So will Missouri now be known as the you don't have too show me state?

Don't show, don't tell?...:)

/s

398 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:07:48pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

When does science=religion?
If science=ideas based on observable fact
&
religion=ideas that must be taken on faith
then
Where does a system that tells me that I must accept that they know the temperature at the center of the sun, the mass of the universe, even the exact rotational speed of the core of the earth without any direct observation of these items? Would that not be a religion with 'scientists' as its priests?

Now, I believe 99% of what scientists say, but I also know how many research dollars are at stake when it comes to maintaining the current paradigm of reality, even in biology.

Should creationism be taught, NO WAY. But should science be regarded as separate and better than religion? Let me ask you this...Wasn't it the scientists who said the world was flat until they had more evidence? Isn't science merely the religion of current beliefs until new evidence comes to light?

Where do we draw the line between what we can and cannot question in science. I don't know. But I'd rather deal with the silly debates like creationism than quash all questioning of the current paradigm.

Let there be scientific heretics, aren't they usually the ones who make the greatest discoveries?

Miss the point, much?

No one says you have to "believe" what scientists say. And other scientists are always out there checking on their colleagues.

Does this guarantee that they're always right? Not hardly. Do some scientists say what their paymasters want to hear? Sure - the pharmaceuticals industry springs to mind. That's why there are independent peer reviews. Don't take a drug that hasn't had 'em.

As for the whole "flat earth" canard - the Greeks and Babylonians and others postulated a globe, and the idea never died, not even in the much-maligned Middle Ages. One of the Latin expressions for "the world" is orbis terrarum - the globe of earth.

Yes, let there be heretics. You don't need to wish for them, however - if you define "heretic" as one who questions scientific data and explanations, science is and was and always will be full of them. So you needn't fear a "science religion" with scientists as "priests" - except in one sense.

If we teach your unscientific definition of science and allow our kids to believe that anything called a "theory" is based on no more than an "idea" - then we'll end up with a generation of dummies who will be entirely dependent on others when faced with any scientific information. They will be pig-ignorant and might as well believe that medicine is magic and astronomy = astrology.

See the point?

399 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:08:55pm

Gotta run. Hope everyone has a wonderful evening!

400 Lynn B.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:08:55pm

re: #367 FurryOldGuyJeans

I thank you for making me search for the DJIA info so I can use actual data to counter the "Bush's Economy" meme.

And for some reason, that chart doesn't even show the actual top. The Dow closed at 14,164.53 on October 9, 2007.

Hard to believe.

401 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:08:56pm

re: #396 pre-Boomer Marine brat

IMHO, that's a very shallow criteria for defining religion.

For example, it could lead to (with sarc) "The Religion of OSHA", because if there's anything which wants you to take their pronouncements as gospel ... OSHA's definitely it.

Hey now, I've had to deal with the complete whackjobs from the Religion of OSHA. Dictate this, dictate that, dictate how one is supposed to pee even.
/

402 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:04pm

re: #395 Bloodnok

That makes you a Priest of the religion of Kragarian Orthodox.

I prefer the term God-Emperor, thank you very much

403 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:21pm

re: #325 Charles

No, they are not equivalent. Creationism is rejected by nearly ALL scientists, and the ones who don't reject it are all working for the Discovery Institute.

When was the Discovery Institute founded? I remember listening to lectures by Rabbi Avigdor Miller in the 1970's, in which he used the same "quote mining" techniques.

404 faraway  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:33pm

We are doomed.

405 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:40pm

re: #378 jcm

You are using a computer. No direct observation of electronic signals can be made. Does that invalidate your computer?

You guys don't have an o'scope in the entire lab?!
WTF! How do you stay in business?

*duck*

406 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:50pm

re: #400 Lynn B.

And for some reason, that chart doesn't even show the actual top. The Dow closed at 14,164.53 on October 9, 2007.

Hard to believe.

And now we're staring a close below 7,500 straight in the face.

407 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:52pm

re: #302 MandyManners

It took me a while to figure out how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Why do I have a funny feeling that, months after this thread is dead and we've all moved on, you and I are both gonna get dinged down about 20 times each for these comments?

408 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #399 subsailor68

Gotta run. Hope everyone has a wonderful evening!

Standby to dive...take care sub...:)

409 yma o hyd  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:10:01pm

Gotta go, Lizards - Madame Dog is getting ever so slightly annoyed ...

Seeya tomorrow, all being well!

410 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:10:22pm
411 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:10:23pm

re: #398 Cato the Elder

As for the whole "flat earth" canard - the Greeks and Babylonians and others postulated a globe, and the idea never died, not even in the much-maligned Middle Ages. One of the Latin expressions for "the world" is orbis terrarum - the globe of earth.

Thank you!

That always drives me crazy.

The example I use is early Christian imagery, of Popes or Kings, I don't recall exactly, and in their hand is a ball with a Cross upon it.

412 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:10:34pm

re: #379 Dustyvet

"I'm a little teapot, short and stout.
This is my handle, this is my spout"...:)

Hey! No teapot pron! This is a family web site.

413 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:10:51pm

re: #380 jcm

I've got 'ole pug on speed dial...
;-)

LOL ... don'cha HAVE to when you're on LGF!

414 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:11:43pm

re: #360 Kenneth

I understand science. I understand applying the observed principles of fluid dynamics to the rotation of the earth. I understand how red-shift is used to estimate how far away from earth a star is and whether it is getting closer or farther away. I understand how scientists apply their observed principles of gravitation in trying to estimate the mass of the universe. I understand that if we don't work from certain assumptions about how reality functions, nothing would ever happen.

Why do you assume I don't know or understand science, merely because I am not willing to accept everything they say without question?

I'm merely pointing out the similarities between the all-powerful science and the religions that it claims to be so different from.

415 Maui Girl  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:11:48pm

re: #365 Kosh's Shadow

When does he start his campaign to repeal the 22nd amendment?

After his reparations bill passes!

416 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:06pm

re: #403 Alouette

When was the Discovery Institute founded? I remember listening to lectures by Rabbi Avigdor Miller in the 1970's, in which he used the same "quote mining" techniques.

Alouette, check out my #299 for some links to earlier Creation Science/Intelligent Design promoters. There's been several organizations like the Discovery Institute in the past century alone. I also link a very good book about the origins of ID there as well.

417 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:33pm

re: #356 Kosh's Shadow

There used to be a t-shirt that said:
And G-d Said:
[Maxwell's equations, that describe light and other electromagnetic radiatio]
And there was Light.

That kind of illuminates my view on the matter.

There is still that T-shirt.

418 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:35pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Just placed my order.

419 debutaunt  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:39pm

re: #361 Kosh's Shadow

Pastafarians are supposed to dress in full pirate regalia.

I understood that the lack of rules or even suggestions was the primary hook to get people to join.

420 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:50pm

re: #407 Last Mohican

Why do I have a funny feeling that, months after this thread is dead and we've all moved on, you and I are both gonna get dinged down about 20 times each for these comments?

I think several of us will. You're not alone in being a target of YEC down ding gnomes.

421 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:56pm

re: #276 albusteve

it's not about McCain...it's about principle....BO is a commie thug and you voted for him knowing full well he is a liar a cheat...yesterday you called him an accomplished politician or whatever....that tells me all I need to know about you

I do not "know'' what you perceive to be true. If you can convince anyone but the fringe right that he's a Commie thug, you'll be golden in 2010 and 2012. I suspect you may have the same luck the moon bats to my left had convincing me Bush was a fascist.
As with the moon bats, the more outrageous the comments, the more it offends the moderates.

422 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:12:59pm

re: #228 Cato the Elder

In the eyes of the law, it makes no difference. Murder is murder.

That's not the point.

/it's a larger cultural question of acceptable societal behavior

423 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:13:19pm

Anger in Britain as radical cleric wins payout

STRASBOURG (AFP) — The European Court of Human Rights awarded compensation Thursday to radical Muslim cleric Abu Qatada for his "unlawful detention" in Britain, triggering anger despite the modest size of the payout.

Qatada, once labelled Osama bin Laden's right-hand man in Europe by a Spanish judge, was awarded 2,800 euros by the Strasbourg court, which will also rule on a final appeal against his deportation from Britain.

Qatada is battling against being kicked out of Britain and sent back to his home country Jordan, where he says he faces torture after being sentenced in his absence to life imprisonment for terrorism offences.

424 palarson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:13:26pm

You should not be surprised if people doubt you when you assert as scientific truth that which provides no advantage whatsoever, particularly when it contradicts beliefs on their part which they think do.

Stop whining about what other people think and figure out some way to harness your theory. The best way to get my attention is to turn it to a money making or resource multiplying advantage.

Pointing to several instances of a rabbit being pulled from a seemingly empty hat doesn't prove that rabbits materialize from the insides of hats. You should be delighted that this sort of empirical evidence doesn't carry much weight.

Evolution is not science in the way people expect science to be to understood. When someone argues with you about the theory of gravity all you need to do to prove your point is utilize ballistic calculations to drop an artillery shell or two on their heads. That's science as its meant to be understood. All else is wishful thinking. Yes, your faith, your religion.

425 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:13:43pm

re: #401 Honorary Yooper

Hey now, I've had to deal with the complete whackjobs from the Religion of OSHA. Dictate this, dictate that, dictate how one is supposed to pee even.
/

Did you practice on their shoes?

426 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:13:53pm

re: #417 Alouette

There is still that T-shirt.

I always wanted the one that said "Stop Plate Tectonics!" I saw that one at Caltech on senior skip day.

427 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:14:02pm
428 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:14:19pm

re: #291 Pyrocles

Of course not. The prism through which one sees the world has no bearing on one's actions... Doesn't everyone know that?

there's some mighty quick responses from the US Muslim groups on this honor killing.

429 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:14:22pm

re: #400 Lynn B.

And for some reason, that chart doesn't even show the actual top. The Dow closed at 14,164.53 on October 9, 2007.

Hard to believe.

That, and unemployment at under 5% makes me wonder how the Dems got away with saying the economy was so terrible during the Bush Years. DROVE ME CRAZY!

430 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:14:28pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

Because you sound like you don't understand how science works.

431 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:14:33pm

Here comes one of our hardcore (and hard-headed) creationists.

432 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:14:35pm

re: #401 Honorary Yooper

Hey now, I've had to deal with the complete whackjobs from the Religion of OSHA. Dictate this, dictate that, dictate how one is supposed to pee even.
/

Did you ever see the 70's-vintage cartoon of the "OSHA Cowboy"?
If not, Image-Google it. It's out there.

433 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:15:12pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Wasn't it the scientists who said the world was flat until they had more evidence?

Scientists since the ancient Greeks knew the earth was round, only the Church and those with no background in the data and sciences propounded the idea the earth was flat since that is what they thought the Scriptures said it was.

Columbus never undertook the famous voyages to "prove" the world was round but to show it was smaller than was thought, hence the whole westward journey to India.

An eclipse of the moon shows the roundness of the earth by the curvature of the encroaching and receding shadows on the face of the moon.

The Greeks had actual data regarding the curvature of the earth and the size by measuring shadows at different latitudes.

434 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:15:29pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

Alternate theory?

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

435 Russkilitlover  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:15:30pm

I wonder if the Creationists are aware of their Destruction of society.

436 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:16:11pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

Science is not based on faith. Science is based on observations and empirical evidence which you might call "facts on the ground." When the Apollo 8 moon shot was being planned it was based on the accumulated knowledge from a variety of scientific fields. The basic foundation of this being mathematics.

If you think that science is a religion then I can only assume that you believe that mathematics is a religion based on faith. Evolution is a wide field that is not limited to your own limited knowledge of the particular science.

437 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:16:16pm

re: #409 yma o hyd

Gotta go, Lizards - Madame Dog is getting ever so slightly annoyed ...

Seeya tomorrow, all being well!

Yurdame Dog sounds like a b*tch.
*duck*
Have a great evening!

438 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:16:18pm

re: #424 palarson

So you can use calculations to prove a theory? Such as the calculations used to determine the age of the Earth and the Universe?

439 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:16:37pm

Mitchell expresses support for Palestinian unity government

Hamas wins.

IRA is not Hamas is not Steroids.

440 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:17:28pm

From what some people are saying here it almost sounds as thought they're saying "we got to the moon by having faith in anecdotal literature."

441 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:17:59pm

re: #396 pre-Boomer Marine brat

IMHO, that's a very shallow criteria for defining religion.

For example, it could lead to (with sarc) "The Religion of OSHA", because if there's anything which wants you to take their pronouncements as gospel ... OSHA's definitely it.

There's also the Order of the Warming Knights.

442 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:17:59pm

I'm sure the Democrats view creationists are useful idiots.

443 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:18:19pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

Let me ask you this...Wasn't it the scientists who said the world was flat until they had more evidence?

Actually it was not. Educated people have known since ancient times that the Earth was roughly a sphere, since before "scientists" existed as a professional category. Aristotle proposed a famous series of proofs for the spherical shape of the Earth, and Eratosthenes of Cyrene accurately calculated the circumference of the Earth in the third century BC. The Romans knew the distance from the Earth to the Sun, from comparing the arc of the Earth's shadow to that of the lunar disk during eclipses. It is a myth that belief in a flat Earth was one of the objections to Columbus's voyages. Ferdinand and Isabella's scientific advisors not only believed the Earth was round, they knew the real distance to Japan, which Columbus himself did not.

444 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:18:26pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

I'm merely pointing out the similarities between the all-powerful science and the religions that it claims to be so different from.

You're just FULL of subjectivity, aren't you.
/no questionmark

445 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:18:34pm

re: #440 Gus 802

From what some people are saying here it almost sounds as thought they're saying "we got to the moon by having faith in anecdotal literature."

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

446 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:18:37pm

re: #434 Slumbering Behemoth

The poster has already admitted they posted from ignorance.

447 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:18:53pm

re: #439 Ben Hur

WTF? How the hell did that happen? Just like that, the United States Government has now decided to support Hamas?

Or was that just something that you invented, in response to the question "what could the Obama administration do today that would be even shittier than what they've already done"?

448 Maui Girl  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:10pm

re: #406 Honorary Yooper

And now we're staring a close below 7,500 straight in the face.

And if I had had a crystal ball back then I would have sold off all my stock. Now I can't really decide what to do but I don't need to take a loss yet for tax purposes. Maybe next year. :(

449 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:17pm

re: #411 Ben Hur

Thank you!

That always drives me crazy.

The example I use is early Christian imagery, of Popes or Kings, I don't recall exactly, and in their hand is a ball with a Cross upon it.

Yep. People confuse the notion of a "flat earth" with the idea of geocentricity vs. heliocentricity. Just dumb.

And it confuses the Turtles.

450 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:29pm

re: #405 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You guys don't have an o'scope in the entire lab?!
WTF! How do you stay in business?

*duck*

ROFL!

451 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:30pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

I'm merely pointing out the similarities between the all-powerful science and the religions that it claims to be so different from.

A duck has two legs. You have two legs. Does that make you a duck?

Get the point yet?

452 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:32pm

re: #445 Charles

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

And huge giant sling shots and rocket boots from Acme.

453 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:36pm

re: #445 Charles

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

Don't forget the incense...

454 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:48pm
455 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #424 palarson

Stop whining about what other people think and figure out some way to harness your theory.

Rich, Corinthian irony.

456 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:06pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf


Why do you assume I don't know or understand science, merely because I am not willing to accept everything they say without question?

I'm merely pointing out the similarities between the all-powerful science and the religions that it claims to be so different from.

Because you proved you did not know or understand the science behind induced magnetic fields, and / or the nature of the earth's internal composition and magnetic field, when you questioned how scientists know how fast the earth's core is moving. You proved you did not understand hydrogen (and helium) fusion, and / or the mass and composition of the sun, when you questioned how scientists know how hot the sun's core is.

Not knowing this stuff is fine. I'm not going to pretend I know it myself. But the information is just a google / wikipedia click away, and several refereed papers, books, and other publications are not all that hard to find either.

Quit acting like a truther.

457 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:12pm

re: #445 Charles

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

Steely Eyed Missile Men!

458 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:25pm

Santelli asked traders on the floor: "This is America! How many of you people want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage that has an extra bathroom and can't pay their bills? Raise their hand. (no hands raised, lots of booing) President Obama, are you listening?"

459 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:35pm

re: #441 Eowyn2

There's also the Order of the Warming Knights.

Well ... it IS heading toward springtime here ... or are you Gore-ing another ox?

460 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:36pm

re: #432 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Did you ever see the 70's-vintage cartoon of the "OSHA Cowboy"?
If not, Image-Google it. It's out there.

Just did. I'd forgotten about it. Printed it, and it's on the office wall now. :-)

461 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #445 Charles

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

We didn't? You mean it wasn't by praying and having faith in the God Apollo?

Is it me or am I the only one not seeing resistance to evolution but science overall?

462 formercorpsman  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:43pm

re: #421 avanti

Hey Chief, I am actually softening up on you, despite my disagreement.

I do have a question though. Have you ever had a chance to read up on Zombie's expose of Ayres, and the Prairie Fire stuff?

463 Kenneth  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:54pm

re: #449 Cato the Elder

Yep. People confuse the notion of a "flat earth" with the idea of geocentricity vs. heliocentricity. Just dumb.

And it confuses the Turtles.

Good night, all.

464 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:20:58pm

re: #422 Killian Bundy

That's not the point.

/it's a larger cultural question of acceptable societal behavior

Acceptable societal behavior excludes murder, regardless of the means used, which are legally irrelevant.

465 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:21:22pm

re: #417 Alouette

There is still that T-shirt.

It makes more sense than my diff-e-q derivatives did in college. And I dont even speak Hebrew.

466 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:21:37pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

"I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion."

I don't think you have a correct perspective of what the scientific community expects. A scientist would not expect you to take what they say as gospel for lack of direct evidence, but they would expect you have the scientific background and credibility to challenge their hypothesis if you disagree.

467 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:21:42pm
"Suppose my neighbor's home catches fire, and I have a length of garden hose. . . . I don't say to him . . . 'Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15 . . .' "

--- Franklin Roosevelt, Dec. 17, 1940, news conference, discussing lend-lease

"When the town is burning, you don't check party labels. Everybody needs to grab a hose."

-- Barack Obama, Feb. 10, 2009

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Barack Obama is a KosKid, with those annoying little quotes, that they always mis-apply.

Ridiculous.

468 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:21:58pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

When does science=religion?
....without any direct observation of these items? Would that not be a religion with 'scientists' as its priests?

But should science be regarded as separate and better than religion?

Let there be scientific heretics, aren't they usually the ones who make the greatest discoveries?

There are ways you could have couched this better. Seriously.

I agree with you to the extent that any form of orthodoxy is a potential license to kill. I would also agree that there are some teachers--on both ends of the political spectrum--that should not be anywhere near fertile young minds.

But, the core element on the ID/Creationist debate is NOT who is right or wrong, or whether or not "science" is some form of cult that needs an academic counterbalance. The issue is whether or not theology clothed in the form of some dubious scientifc principles is being promulgated in the schools.

I am coming to the conclusion that many people--you included--are losing sight of the big picture. Science is not the boogeyman. Letting theology into the schools in any guise undermines the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Bluntly put, demographics are a bitch (ask any Native American) and one day, we could have a very large Muslim segment of our population. Do you want to set the precedent for them to allow their doctrines and their law to be part of public school curricula? None of us want to see that.

On another front, the subversion of our history is also taking a toll. We are marginalizing/vilifying the founding generation on one end (eek! they were white slave owners!)- and making them the 18th century equivalent of the twelve apostles on the other (the founders were all "Christians"--an epithet which would have made Dr. Franklin wince), when neither are true.

I would say to all the ID/Creationist people that you're fighting the right war, but the wrong battle.

469 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:22:36pm

re: #445 Charles

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

silly peoples. that was a soundstage. we all know that.

//

470 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:22:50pm

re: #440 Gus 802

From what some people are saying here it almost sounds as thought they're saying "we got to the moon by having faith in anecdotal literature."

Careful there. There's a fair number of whackjobs out there who think the enitre set of moon landings was staged. They'll be the next group of toofers to show up next.

471 godfrey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:22:53pm

DragonWolf is redefining "science," e.g.,

'Scientists' once thought they could transmute other metals into gold!

It's a fun game to play.

472 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:22:57pm
473 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:00pm

re: #460 Honorary Yooper

Just did. I'd forgotten about it. Printed it, and it's on the office wall now. :-)

Thumbs-up!
Let's keep it alive!

474 Pyrocles  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:04pm

They gotta love them! I remember how my Liberal Canadian wife teased me after the Republican debates about how none of the Republican candidates believed in evolution. At least that's what she heard on NPR...

re: #442 HelloDare

I'm sure the Democrats view creationists are useful idiots.

475 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:23pm

re: #364 Honorary Yooper

No
No
No
Teachers showed me evidence of what scientists had observed. Everything you pointed out can be directly dis-proven through observation.

I consider them priests when they expect me to accept extrapolations that they have made, without observation evidence, without question.

I do understand that not all scientists fight against the questioning. Stephen Hawkins (sp?) for example has a bet going with a colleague in which the only way he can win the bet is for his life's work to be proven wrong.

Science is the foundation we use as our platform for encountering reality. That doesn't mean it has all the answers yet, nor that all the answers it does have are correct.

I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.

476 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:31pm

re: #470 Honorary Yooper

Careful there. There's a fair number of whackjobs out there who think the enitre set of moon landings was staged. They'll be the next group of toofers to show up next.

All I can say is:

NEXT!

477 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:50pm

re: #391 bulwrk

So will Missouri now be known as the you don't have too show me state?

No, it's the "I Trust You" State

478 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:53pm

re: #443 Shiplord Kirel

The Romans knew the distance from the Earth to the Sun, from comparing the arc of the.....

Acchhhh! This should read "MOON" rather than "Sun." Eratosthenes was alleged to have determined the distance to the Sun, but no real evidence for this, or for his method, has ever been forthcoming.

479 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:23:54pm

re: #449 Cato the Elder

Yep. People confuse the notion of a "flat earth" with the idea of geocentricity vs. heliocentricity. Just dumb.

And it confuses the Turtles.


I like turtles.

480 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:24:01pm

re: #232 EtheWise

One last thing Mandy, I don't live here like you do. Working the reply or quote buttons is pretty low on the priority list.

Yet so incredibly simple and easy a caveman could do it. Pompous ass.

481 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:24:20pm

re: #461 Gus 802

Is it me or am I the only one not seeing resistance to evolution but science overall?

It does feel like we've time-warped back a few centuries.

482 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:24:37pm

re: #452 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And huge giant sling shots and rocket boots from Acme.

The future of MO Engineering Schools?

483 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:24:42pm
484 Russkilitlover  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:24:48pm

re: #454 buzzsawmonkey

What about the Knights who say, "DI!"?NI

Fixed.

485 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #445 Charles

I thought we did it with wild-ass guesses, and prayers to the God-Kings of Scientism?

That's the Saudi approach. "There's no need to study gravitation and propulsion technology. If and when Allah intends for us to be on the moon, we will simply find ourselves there, inshallah. Now stop wasting my time with these pointless questions, because I need to think about a far more important issue: the question of whether or not we are morally obligated to behead all Spanish persons, because they say the word 'porque' a lot, which may be a secret Zionist code word for 'Porky', who is a pig, and they may be doing this in order to taunt us and insult our Prophet, PBUH."

486 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:00pm

re: #478 Shiplord Kirel

Acchhhh! This should read "MOON" rather than "Sun." Eratosthenes was alleged to have determined the distance to the Sun, but no real evidence for this, or for his method, has ever been forthcoming.

Well ,,,, there were those singed feathers he tried to use !

//

487 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:01pm

re: #461 Gus 802

We didn't? You mean it wasn't by praying and having faith in the God Apollo?

Is it me or am I the only one not seeing resistance to evolution but science overall?

No, it's not just you. There does seem to be an undercurrent of a rejection of science by the YECs.

488 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:08pm

re: #373 HoosierHoops

Those dynamic matrix questions always honked me up too! Hey hoops!

489 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:27pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

You won't accept what science says without proof, but we have accept without proof anything you say?

Yeah, RIGHT!

490 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:33pm

5 states ban atheists from serving

491 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:33pm

re: #471 godfrey

DragonWolf is redefining "science," e.g.,

'Scientists' once thought they could transmute other metals into gold!

It's a fun game to play.

What? You mean I can't? Guess I'd better cancel that order for five tons of lead. Then again, I could use it for my reloads. Say, that's how you turn lead into cash!///

492 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:52pm

re: #458 unreconstructed rebel

Santelli asked traders on the floor: "This is America! How many of you people want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage that has an extra bathroom and can't pay their bills? Raise their hand. (no hands raised, lots of booing) President Obama, are you listening?"

Well, you know you can't just drive your big cars and eat cheeseburgers and expect the world to say O.K...... at least that's his goal.

493 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:25:58pm
494 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:26:09pm

re: #463 Kenneth

[Video]

Good night, all.

Good night? Where ya'll at?

495 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:26:15pm

re: #483 ploome hineni

OT -- got my cookbook today, already thanked reine, THANKS to YOU too!

496 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:26:55pm

re: #471 godfrey

DragonWolf is redefining "science," e.g.,

'Scientists' once thought they could transmute other metals into gold!

It's a fun game to play.

Lead to Gold..... (it took quantum physics to do it) and it makes very expensive gold.

497 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:09pm

re: #488 turn

Those dynamic matrix questions always honked me up too! Hey hoops!

Hi turn! hope today finds you well...

498 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:12pm

re: #490 avanti

5 states ban atheists from serving

Unbelievable, yet true I see.

What an advanced nation we are living in.

499 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:36pm

re: #459 pre-Boomer Marine brat
re: #441 Eowyn2

There's also the Order of the Warming Knights.

Well ... it IS heading toward springtime here ... or are you Gore-ing another ox?

An Oxish-moron, the Goracle and his Knights in foil Armour

500 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:36pm

re: #471 godfrey

DragonWolf is redefining "science," e.g.,

'Scientists' once thought they could transmute other metals into gold!

It's a fun game to play.

He complains that science is always changing so we should accept what Creationism and ID says since that never changes.

501 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:44pm

re: #493 orson

What the hell was that?

502 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:48pm

re: #493 orson

Buh-bye!

503 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:53pm

re: #474 Pyrocles

Speaking of NPR, last Friday I was at a little get-together and approached an aquaitance who was wearing a Ché t-shirt.This guy frequently calls into NPR. I asked him what the appeal of Che was. He said, "He was smart, a doctor and wanted democracy for all men." You can imagine the conversation we had. Now that is a useful idiot.

504 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:27:55pm

re: #461 Gus 802

We didn't? You mean it wasn't by praying and having faith in the God Apollo?

Is it me or am I the only one not seeing resistance to evolution but science overall?

Yep. Dragonwolf gives off a serious Urban VIII vibe. The sun and stars sure look like they are on celestial spheres rotating around the Earth... have any of you lizards actually gotten on a rocket past the moon to see for yourself? huh? HUH?

505 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:02pm

re: #445 Charles

The God-Kings of Scientism?

We they not the opening act for the Who a few years ago?

506 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:03pm

re: #467 Ben Hur

-- Barack Obama, Feb. 10, 2009

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Barack Obama is a KosKid, with those annoying little quotes, that they always mis-apply.

Ridiculous.

When your neighbor is the idiot who likes to play with matches during the drought, you can't have much sympathy when his house catches fire.

507 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:07pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

Science is the foundation we use as our platform for encountering reality. That doesn't mean it has all the answers yet, nor that all the answers it does have are correct.

I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.

Show us where anyone has contradicted what you say above, and don't be a pedantic ass about it.

508 godfrey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:08pm

So DragonWolf, where do you draw the line between theory and facticity? Transitional fossils not enough for you?

509 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:16pm

re: #470 Honorary Yooper

beat you by one post!

510 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:17pm

OT: 9 Bizarre Moments in Economic History

All the brief stories are good, but get this one:

5. Adjustable Rate Mortgage, Archduke Ferdinand?

In the 1860s, the rulers of the newly-formed Austro-Hungarian Empire encouraged their bankers to be more free with their lending standards. Their goal was to encourage growth in the empire. The result (this is going to sound eerily familiar) was over-speculation in building, massive default on borrowed funds, and economic collapse throughout Central Europe. The worldwide depression reached all the way to the United States and triggered the Panic of 1873. On the bright side, many of the most beautiful buildings in Europe come from this period of “irrational exuberance.”

511 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:31pm
512 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:37pm
513 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:28:53pm

re: #499 Eowyn2

re: #441 Eowyn2

There's also the Order of the Warming Knights.

An Oxish-moron, the Goracle and his Knights in foil Armour

LOL!
Up-Ding!
Good one!

514 Chuckg  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:29:03pm

For pete's sake, even the *Vatican* isn't creationist anymore. Why do they have to be?

515 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:29:25pm

re: #493 orson

I'll be dead before I accept the theocracy of Creationism, dim bulb.

516 Annar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:29:25pm

re: #279 Mirage

Democrats have global warming, Republicans have creationism ... both issues have their scientists arguing they're right.

Global warming is junk science; creationism is religion. Let us keep our terms straight.

517 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:29:33pm

re: #493 orson

Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

518 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:29:56pm

re: #490 avanti

5 states ban atheists from serving

What will that do to the restaurant business?

519 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:21pm

re: #493 orson

There's our first meltdown. Who guessed #493?

520 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:32pm

re: #508 godfrey

So DragonWolf, where do you draw the line between theory and facticity? Transitional fossils not enough for you?

Do you directly observe the creation die and fossilize?

No.

//////////

521 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:34pm

re: #398 Cato the Elder

I agree except for one thing. I don't believe a theory is only an idea. You start with an idea, then you experiment. From the observed evidence you build a theory. the more evidence you gain the more you can refine your theory.

I have no problem excluding from schools those ideas for which there is no observed evidence. Unfortunately that would also remove certain fields of science from schools as well. Unless someone has made direct observation of a black hole that I'm not aware of?

I truly am not questioning science so much as my perception of the blind faith so many people place in it.

Does that make sense?

522 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:34pm

re: #504 Zimriel

Yep. Dragonwolf gives off a serious Urban VIII vibe. The sun and stars sure look like they are on celestial spheres rotating around the Earth... have any of you lizards actually gotten on a rocket past the moon to see for yourself? huh? HUH?

Ironically even the science of the past which has been proven false would be objectionable to many in our midst.

523 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:37pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

No
No
No
Teachers showed me evidence of what scientists had observed. Everything you pointed out can be directly dis-proven through observation.

I consider them priests when they expect me to accept extrapolations that they have made, without observation evidence, without question.

I do understand that not all scientists fight against the questioning. Stephen Hawkins (sp?) for example has a bet going with a colleague in which the only way he can win the bet is for his life's work to be proven wrong.

You do realize that scientific theories can only be disproven, not proven? That is why Hawking would have such a bet.

Science is the foundation we use as our platform for encountering reality. That doesn't mean it has all the answers yet, nor that all the answers it does have are correct.

I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.

The problem is, you are confusing the definitions of priests and scientists. I would assume that you are either an evangelical or a protestant, and have had contact with ministers, but not what Catholics and Orthodox call priests. I would suggest you meet with one and ask what it is a priest does, and how it is different than a scientist. Now, that said, there have been plenty of Jesuits who have also been scientists.

524 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:41pm

re: #458 unreconstructed rebel

Santelli asked traders on the floor: "This is America! How many of you people want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage that has an extra bathroom and can't pay their bills? Raise their hand. (no hands raised, lots of booing) President Obama, are you listening?"

I only have one bathroom, will they pay my mortgage?

525 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:49pm

re: #493 orson

LOL.

I guess it's all up to you, eh ?

And Ann Coulter is a racist.

LOL

You will ALL be creationists, some great day. Until then, buh-bye. I'll be PRAYING for you.

Please, post your prayers and let people see what you are saying behind their backs.

526 godfrey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:30:55pm

re: #518 calcajun

lol

Ordering food with the expectation you'll be served before dawn often requires a leap of faith.

527 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:31:05pm

re: #440 Gus 802

From what some people are saying here it almost sounds as thought they're saying "we got to the moon by having faith in anecdotal literature."

They started with Jules Verne and went from there...

528 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:31:05pm

re: #519 Charles

There's our first meltdown. Who guessed #493?

Mid 200's; they're waiting longer.......

529 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:31:17pm

re: #443 Shiplord Kirel

I stand corrected, Thank you.

530 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:31:34pm

re: #464 Cato the Elder

Acceptable societal behavior excludes murder

/except in the couples, home country Pakistan and other Muslim countries and cultures, that's the point, under Sharia, honor killing is justifiable and culturally accepted

531 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:31:57pm

re: #435 Russkilitlover

I wonder if the Creationists are aware of their Destruction of society.

Like I've been saying --right war, wrong battle.

532 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:32:05pm

re: #519 Charles

There's our first meltdown. Who guessed #493?

Damn,,, I boxed 4/ 9/ 2. Well ,,, I still have a chance if thios thread gets uo to 924 or 942!~

533 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:32:28pm

re: #524 Eowyn2

I only have one bathroom, will they pay my mortgage?

Running water, huh? Why when I was a kid we peed .....

/ducks

534 Unakite  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:32:28pm

re: #470 Honorary Yooper

Careful there. There's a fair number of whackjobs out there who think the enitre set of moon landings was staged. They'll be the next group of toofers to show up next.

Well, if they showed up next, they would have to be the next group...
/white smoke

535 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:32:47pm

re: #444 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I apologize, I sometimes forget to maintain objectivity when playing the Devil's Advocate.

I should have left it as 'science'.

536 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:32:55pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

Unless someone has made direct observation of a black hole that I'm not aware of?

Evidently, there's quite a bit you aren't aware of.

[Link: blogs.discovermagazine.com...]

Does that make sense?

Nope.

537 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:32:58pm

re: #527 Cato the Elder

They started with Jules Verne and went from there...

True, fiction or the imagination played a part. Of course they moved forward starting with the basics rather than starting at the end.

538 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:33:08pm

Mork just called Orson.

539 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:33:11pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.

The subjective is getting sarcastic.

You seem to be saying that pre-Boomer Marine brat -- myself -- has been brainwashed.

Is that correct?
Is that IT?

540 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:33:19pm

re: #519 Charles

There's our first meltdown. Who guessed #493?

I did!
(I got here at 494).

541 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:33:26pm

re: #501 Dustyvet

What the hell was that?

"And like that, he's gone..." - Kevin Spacey

542 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:33:28pm

re: #426 EmmmieG

I always wanted the one that said "Stop Plate Tectonics!" I saw that one at Caltech on senior skip day.

I saw two bumper stickers like that. One said "Stop Continental Drift!" and the other said "Reunite Gonwanaland!"

543 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:33:59pm

I was too quick on the draw with Orson (Wells?). Should have just replied. Anyway, for the record before it disappears above, I'll still post the basiccomment:

Please, post your prayers and let people see what you are saying behind their backs.

544 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:16pm

re: #525 Naso Tang

Please, post your prayers and let people see what you are saying behind their backs.

Orson was quite a pig.

/US Acres reference.

545 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:19pm

re: #490 avanti

5 states ban atheists from serving

I would bet these are artifacts that sprang from a belief that if you were an atheist, your oath to tell the truth would be meaningless.

For that reason and because some Christians believe it is against scripture to swear in God's name, the concept of 'affirming' that one would tell the truth came into practice in most states.

546 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:29pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

Unless someone has made direct observation of a black hole that I'm not aware of?

Excluding the one in your scientific knowledge?

547 godfrey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:31pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

my perception of the blind faith so many people place in it.

Your perception might be part of the problem.

And what is "it"? Every scientific theory, or just the ones that don't involve direct eyeball observation?

548 lostlakehiker  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:39pm
“teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of theories of biological and chemical evolution.” ...

The difficulty here is that an objective critique of the scientific weaknesses of the standard scientific theory of (biological) evolution is that it is quite robust. It hasn't any significant weaknesses.

All countervailing theories, to date, are shot through with weaknesses. An objective critique of those theories is going to be scathing. How do you present an objective, scathing, but respectful, critique?

It can be done. The theory gets hammered, mercilessly. Its adherents are spared, insofar as possible. They haven't had time to study the issue. They're good to their wives and their dogs love them. They've been taught different and it's hard to break the bonds of early teaching.

Is this what the bill has in mind?

/SNORT!

549 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:43pm

re: #513 pre-Boomer Marine brat

why thank you

550 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:49pm

re: #542 Mirage

Ha! That could another one. Plate tectonics is a form of geological evolution. I wonder if that's objected by the flat earth people.

551 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:34:59pm

re: #498 Gus 802

I can say that with as screwed up as Washington State is, the State Constitution denounces this bigotry (Article I, section 11).

552 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:35:02pm

re: #536 Charles

Nope.

How do you directly observe something that sucks in all light..... huh? huh?
////////

553 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:35:14pm

re: #542 Mirage

I saw two bumper stickers like that. One said "Stop Continental Drift!" and the other said "Reunite Gonwanaland!"

How about "The Pangea Reunification Front!"

554 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:35:17pm

re: #536 Charles

Nope.

great link Charles!
You ever read the universetoday web site?

555 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:35:22pm

re: #490 avanti

5 states ban atheists from serving

Please read the links you post:

Can it be constitutional to exclude from public service or service as a witness in a state court any and all atheists? Such a practice is so throw-back in nature, that it reminds one of the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, when I read the first part of this Washington Post piece, I was flabbergasted to find that Arkansas is one of a half-dozen states that does so. Read on and be flabbergasted (or not) yourself. But know in advance that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled illegal all such laws in 1961:


In other words, no states ban atheists from public service.

556 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:36:02pm

re: #535 Dragonwolf

I apologize, I sometimes forget to maintain objectivity when playing the Devil's Advocate.

I should have left it as 'science'.

Accepted.

557 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:36:13pm

re: #552 jcm

How do you directly observe something that sucks in all light..... huh? huh?
////////

Talking about our President again?

558 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:36:14pm

re: #366 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That's a subjective evaluation.

How is it subjective? I observed how many people respond to science the same way they do to religion. And that some (not all by any means) leaders of the scientific community expect acceptance without direct observation proof.

559 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:36:24pm

re: #553 calcajun

How about "The Pangea Reunification Front!"

SPLITTERS!

560 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:36:40pm

re: #550 Gus 802

Ha! That could another one. Plate tectonics is a form of geological evolution. I wonder if that's objected by the flat earth people.

Actually, yes, it is rejected by Flat Earthers. Young Earth Creationsts also reject it. Evolutionary theory is just at the forefront of their fights. If they win there, plate tectonics is next. They seriously want to replace it with Flood Geology.

561 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:36:49pm

re: #551 FurryOldGuyJeans

I can say that with as screwed up as Washington State is, the State Constitution denounces this bigotry (Article I, section 11).

I'll have to check my state.

Bizzaro laws that we have.

562 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:37:02pm

re: #553 calcajun

How about "The Pangea Reunification Front!"

"SURVIVOR REGROUPING ZONE"

563 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:37:13pm

I see the [deleted] posts after I refresh and it gets my curiosity going about what was posted since obviously it was bad enough to get dumped.

564 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:37:20pm

re: #551 FurryOldGuyJeans

I can say that with as screwed up as Washington State is, the State Constitution denounces this bigotry (Article I, section 11).

WA State Constitution is good on fundamentals.

It's the black hole in Olympia that sucks in any and all sanity we have to worry about.

565 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:37:28pm

re: #552 jcm

How do you directly observe something that sucks in all light..... huh? huh?
////////

Very carefully. Don't get too close. It's just not worth the risk.

566 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:37:33pm

re: #559 Zimriel

SPLITTERS!

No, you're thinking of "The Reunification Front for Pangaea"

567 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:37:43pm

re: #555 gmsc

Please read the links you post:

I've been doing this on an almost daily basis with Avanti for awhile now. He/She will post something with a link, and somewhere in that link DIRECTLY contradicts the post!

568 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:38:31pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.

Positing that "there might be an error here" is not the same as showing there is one. That would be science.

Man up, and show us the errors. We and the world's scientists wait with bated breath.

"Others abide our question. Thou art free."

569 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:38:31pm

re: #557 calcajun

Talking about our President again?

I'm sorry, I'm a coward..... I'll take myself to diversity training.......

570 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:38:34pm

re: #555 gmsc

In other words, no states ban atheists from public service.

avanti does tend to be a bit loose with facts, so his linking an article that actually goes against what he posted is par for the course.

571 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:38:46pm

re: #560 Honorary Yooper

Actually, yes, it is rejected by Flat Earthers. Young Earth Creationsts also reject it. Evolutionary theory is just at the forefront of their fights. If they win there, plate tectonics is next. They seriously want to replace it with Flood Geology.

You learn something new everyday. I am just floored that they would object to that given the outright evidence of geology. My comment was based on the assumption of their logic (which is actually illogic) so I went from there.

If they refuse PT then this is a lost cause as are they.

572 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:00pm

re: #563 Mirage

I see the [deleted] posts after I refresh and it gets my curiosity going about what was posted since obviously it was bad enough to get dumped.

Probably falls into one of these categories:

Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.
573 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:01pm

re: #566 calcajun

No, you're thinking of "The Reunification Front for Pangaea"

You're not a messiah; you're a VERY naughty boy!

574 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:18pm

Scientist speculate that the monstrous black hole at the center of our universe is filled with unmatched socks.

575 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:18pm

re: #565 Last Mohican

Very carefully. Don't get too close. It's just not worth the risk.

On come on lets see how close we can get to the event horizon!

Double dog dare you!

576 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:19pm

re: #564 jcm

WA State Constitution is good on fundamentals.

It's the black hole in Olympia that sucks in any and all sanity we have to worry about.

About time they learned what Article I, Section 1 actually says.

577 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:38pm

re: #563 Mirage

I see the [deleted] posts after I refresh and it gets my curiosity going about what was posted since obviously it was bad enough to get dumped.

Variations on the term "I'm outa here", as well as a dash of stupidity.

578 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:40pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

No

"I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age."

In science the term "error" implies the actual value of something is known, which it never will be. A more appropriate scientific term would be "uncertainty" - just saying.

579 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:47pm

re: #530 Killian Bundy

/except in the couples, home country Pakistan and other Muslim countries and cultures, that's the point, under Sharia, honor killing is justifiable and culturally accepted

But not here. That's my point.

580 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:53pm

re: #569 jcm

I'm sorry, I'm a coward..... I'll take myself to diversity training.......

Would whoever it was that was asked to kick Bono in the nuts please switch over to Eric Holder, please?

/

581 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:39:57pm

msnbc.com: BREAKING NEWS: FBI serves civil papers on Texas billionaire R. Allen Stanford in Virginia

582 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:06pm

re: #574 HelloDare

Scientist speculate that the monstrous black hole at the center of our universe is filled with unmatched socks.

Sockist.

583 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:08pm

re: #558 Dragonwolf

And that some (not all by any means) leaders of the scientific community expect acceptance without direct observation proof.

何?

All the real scientists I have known or worked with accepted the need to have peers and to communicate with them. It is the kooks who look themselves away.

Also, anywhere I look in the modern world where the scientific process is used, there are the requirements for data, of some sort.

Finally, "direct observation" is not as meaningful as you think it is.... as many physical processes cannot be seen by the human eye, and are often measured indirectly.

584 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:09pm

re: #562 Dustyvet

"SURVIVOR REGROUPING ZONE"

You know, looking at the animation on those History Channel specials, it looks like the continents are doing a planetary doe-see-doe with each other, going back and forth. Well, it sounded funny when I first thought of it. Time to take another swig of lunch

585 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:14pm

re: #567 sattv4u2

Please read the links you post:

I've been doing this on an almost daily basis with Avanti for awhile now. He/She will post something with a link, and somewhere in that link DIRECTLY contradicts the post!

Well, since Avanti has been defending the 0ne, that's easy- 0bama contradicts himself on a regular basis.
It is going to drive the compilers nuts when they try to put together The Gospel According to Obama.
It will end up like another religious book full of contradictions, you know, the one the mullahs use to justify attacking unbelievers and yet claim it is a religion of peace.

586 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:36pm

re: #566 calcajun

No, you're thinking of "The Reunification Front for Pangaea"

Cafepress: Pangea

587 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:45pm

re: #576 FurryOldGuyJeans

About time they learned what Article I, Section 1 actually says.

Hehe, I can't wait to ask a signature gatherer.

588 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:49pm

re: #582 OldLineTexan

Sockist.

I ain't no nudist.

589 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:40:56pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

I agree except for one thing. I don't believe a theory is only an idea. You start with an idea, then you experiment. From the observed evidence you build a theory. the more evidence you gain the more you can refine your theory.

I have no problem excluding from schools those ideas for which there is no observed evidence. Unfortunately that would also remove certain fields of science from schools as well. Unless someone has made direct observation of a black hole that I'm not aware of?

I truly am not questioning science so much as my perception of the blind faith so many people place in it.

Does that make sense?

No.

590 Unakite  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

No
No
No
Teachers showed me evidence of what scientists had observed. Everything you pointed out can be directly dis-proven through observation.

I consider them priests when they expect me to accept extrapolations that they have made, without observation evidence, without question.

I do understand that not all scientists fight against the questioning. Stephen Hawkins (sp?) for example has a bet going with a colleague in which the only way he can win the bet is for his life's work to be proven wrong.

Science is the foundation we use as our platform for encountering reality. That doesn't mean it has all the answers yet, nor that all the answers it does have are correct.

I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.


No!
No!
No!
Many people encounter reality and interpret it in different ways. Many of the interpretations are downright nutty. Science is the method used to objectively (or as objectively as humanly possible) interpret the reality we encounter.

591 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #561 Gus 802

I'll have to check my state.

Bizzaro laws that we have.

Dumb Laws, US and International.

592 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:41:34pm

PIMF

That should have been "...kooks who lock themselves away..."

593 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:41:35pm

re: #373 HoosierHoops

oh lawdy..It's in the math..you do believe in math right?
If you feel a need to challenge the numbers..go to this web site and ask your questions..Good luck understanding dynamic Matrix equations in Physics..
[Link: coraifeartaigh.wordpress.com...]

Last time I checked scientific research they had realized that there are instances where those equations of your's don't quite hold up. (in sub-atomic areas where gravitics and angular momentum don't follow prescribed patterns - and around black holes where pretty much everything gets screwy)

That equations they show me that are fully consistent with all experimental observations I will accept, for now.

To accept what we have now as the final answer would be bad science.

594 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:41:37pm

re: #573 OldLineTexan

You're not a messiah; you're a VERY naughty boy!

You are the messiah and I should know; I've followed a few.

595 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:42:04pm

re: #533 unreconstructed rebel

Running water, huh? Why when I was a kid we peed .....

/ducks

last year we moved it inside. someone poisened the well. I blame the Israelis and their hair rays.
This summer we're gonna work on gettin rid o the wagon ruts in the driveway.

596 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:42:11pm

re: #587 jcm

Hehe, I can't wait to ask a signature gatherer.

Heh. ;)

597 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:42:51pm

And plate techre: #560 Honorary Yooper

Actually, yes, it is rejected by Flat Earthers. Young Earth Creationsts also reject it. Evolutionary theory is just at the forefront of their fights. If they win there, plate tectonics is next. They seriously want to replace it with Flood Geology.

And it's easy enough to prove plate techtonics, too. Drop a GPS tracker on the ocean floor, come back a year later and hey, what do you know, it moved. Or do they insist someone dove down there and shifted it manually when no one was looking?

598 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:43:06pm

re: #595 Eowyn2

last year we moved it inside. someone poisened the well. I blame the Israelis and their hair rays.
This summer we're gonna work on gettin rid o the wagon ruts in the driveway.

Fill them with unicorn poop and grow some nice flowers.

599 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:43:25pm

re: #555 gmsc

In other words, no states ban atheists from public service.


Good job!

600 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:43:26pm

re: #497 HoosierHoops

Yeah, I'm fine. Down in beautiful San Diego today working 4 PM till 6 AM on a crash highway project. It is incredible weather wise down here today. How ya doing?

601 A.W.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:43:48pm

re: #307 scottishbuzzsaw

Perhaps if the Wedge Document hadn't been revealed we could take the bill at face value and let it 'play out.' Now, not so much.

You miss my point. Even if you have clear and obvious evidence right now that this is stealth creationism, attacking it now is stupid politics. It just makes you look intolerant. If this is a conspiracy, it is playing right into its hands.

I mean hell, it hasn't even been assigned to a committee yet.

602 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:43:50pm

re: #558 Dragonwolf

How is it subjective? I observed how many people respond to science the same way they do to religion. And that some (not all by any means) leaders of the scientific community expect acceptance without direct observation proof.

For reference: the original wording was "the religion of current beliefs"

Defining it as a religion is what's subjective.

Which "leaders of the scientific community expect acceptance without direct observation proof." Names?

603 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:43:56pm

re: #597 Mirage

And plate tech

And it's easy enough to prove plate techtonics, too. Drop a GPS tracker on the ocean floor, come back a year later and hey, what do you know, it moved. Or do they insist someone dove down there and shifted it manually when no one was looking?

They would say it moved but not because of plate techtonics.

604 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:03pm
605 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:03pm

re: #393 Dustyvet

Just drops in once in a while to sell wolf cookies...

/S

Sorry to disappoint, but I wouldn't have made the initial post if I weren't willing to follow it up.

606 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:04pm

re: #600 turn

Yeah, I'm fine. Down in beautiful San Diego today working 4 PM till 6 AM on a crash highway project. It is incredible weather wise down here today. How ya doing?

Wow, I did not know they designed those purposefully.

607 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:14pm

re: #461 Gus 802

We didn't? You mean it wasn't by praying and having faith in the God Apollo?

Is it me or am I the only one not seeing resistance to evolution but science overall?

It's a popular sentiment unfortunately. I just watched "The Day The Earth Stood Still". The Earth is 'saved' by aliens suddenly plunging the planet into a new and permanent dark age in which no machines or devices will ever work again.

608 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:27pm

re: #574 HelloDare

Scientist speculate that the monstrous black hole at the center of our universe is filled with unmatched socks.

I always wondered where those pesky things vanished to.

609 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:33pm

re: #571 Gus 802

You learn something new everyday. I am just floored that they would object to that given the outright evidence of geology. My comment was based on the assumption of their logic (which is actually illogic) so I went from there.

If they refuse PT then this is a lost cause as are they.

That's what's funny, we could bring up floods in other early religion myths, such as the stories of Gilgamesh and/or Babylonian myths.

610 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:37pm

re: #602 pre-Boomer Marine brat

For reference: the original wording was "the religion of current beliefs"

Defining it as a religion is what's subjective.

Which "leaders of the scientific community expect acceptance without direct observation proof." Names?

Al Gore?

/ducking

611 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:39pm

re: #579 Cato the Elder

But not here. That's my point.

/it's now happening here, the fact that Mr. Beheader will end up in prison for murder doesn't change the incoming culture creep

612 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:40pm

re: #574 HelloDare

Scientist speculate that the monstrous black hole at the center of our universe is filled with unmatched socks.

socks = underpants in black hole gnomenclature

/phase 2

613 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:44:46pm

re: #600 turn

Turn, where down in SD? Which project? You over on the 15?

614 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:45:14pm

re: #606 OldLineTexan

Wow, I did not know they designed those purposefully.

No, they evolved (I could not resist)

615 lostlakehiker  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:45:29pm

re: #424 palarson

You should not be surprised if people doubt you when you assert as scientific truth that which provides no advantage whatsoever, particularly when it contradicts beliefs on their part which they think do.

Stop whining about what other people think and figure out some way to harness your theory. The best way to get my attention is to turn it to a money making or resource multiplying advantage.

Pointing to several instances of a rabbit being pulled from a seemingly empty hat doesn't prove that rabbits materialize from the insides of hats. You should be delighted that this sort of empirical evidence doesn't carry much weight.

Evolution is not science in the way people expect science to be to understood. When someone argues with you about the theory of gravity all you need to do to prove your point is utilize ballistic calculations to drop an artillery shell or two on their heads. That's science as its meant to be understood. All else is wishful thinking. Yes, your faith, your religion.

So, the point of science is to kill people. Once they're dead, they have to concede you were right? I disagree, but suppose somebody takes you up on it. He delves deep into evolutionary theory, and finds a way to concoct a variant of smallpox that circumvents all innoculation, spreads like wildfire, sickens people only a little, they get well they think, and then, when everybody's been infected, phase 2 kicks in and they all die.

Would THAT prove evolution, to your satisfaction?

The way I see it, our understanding of evolution is necessary to our efforts to ward off this kind of attack, which may well come some day. You see, whether you believe in gravity or not, the OTHER guy can use HIS understanding of gravity to kill you. And whether you believe in evolution or not, it's the same.

But not to worry. We will use our understanding of evolution to protect YOU. So long as you lose in court, you live, protected by the very umbrella your court actions are trying to fold.

616 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:45:35pm

re: #583 freetoken

何?
Finally, "direct observation" is not as meaningful as you think it is.... as many physical processes cannot be seen by the human eye, and are often measured indirectly.

Sure. I believe in protons and neutrons, but I haven't actually seen any.

In fact, I believe 0bama exists, but I've only seen his image in print and on computer and TV screens.

617 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:45:43pm

re: #601 A.W.

You miss my point. Even if you have clear and obvious evidence right now that this is stealth creationism, attacking it now is stupid politics. It just makes you look intolerant. If this is a conspiracy, it is playing right into its hands.

I mean hell, it hasn't even been assigned to a committee yet.

Wrong.

Bills like this have already passed in several states. The time to sound a warning is NOT after the bill becomes law -- the right time is as soon as one of these deceptive bills rears its ugly head.

618 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:45:45pm

Gotta run. Peace.

619 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:46:06pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

Oh man, I'm so far upthread I'm going to have to pass on this one.

620 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:46:29pm

re: #612 eschew_obfuscation

socks = underpants in black hole gnomenclature

/phase 2

YOU DISCOVERED STEP 2?

Ohboyohboyohboyohboy...BIG PROFITS are NEXT!

/my hero

621 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:47:26pm

re: #601 A.W.

This is not an isolated incident. Laws and bills like this have already been passed in other states.

622 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:47:28pm

re: #614 calcajun

No, they evolved (I could not resist)

No wonder it goes so slowly ...

623 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:47:41pm
Why do they always have to be Republicans?

Have we answered this one yet?

624 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:47:52pm

That's too bad about Bobby Jindal though, he'd be a great Republican counterpart to Obama, a young attractive-looking male of ethnic descent to represent the forward looking vision of our party, then he turns out to be "one of them".

/shakes head.

625 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:47:59pm

re: #609 Hengineer

That's what's funny, we could bring up floods in other early religion myths, such as the stories of Gilgamesh and/or Babylonian myths.

I'll assume that would be part of the overall ID curricula. So a science teacher would introduce Gilgamesh and other Bibilical stories as an alternative to geologic activity.

What else would they "oppose" I now wonder. What about hurricanes and atmospheric science?

626 HelloDare  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:48:07pm
627 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:48:16pm

re: #610 OldLineTexan

Al Gore?

/ducking

"leaders of the scientific community " you blankety-blank ...
[slaps hand over mouth]

(-:

628 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:48:21pm

re: #601 A.W.

You miss my point. Even if you have clear and obvious evidence right now that this is stealth creationism, attacking it now is stupid politics. It just makes you look intolerant. If this is a conspiracy, it is playing right into its hands.

I mean hell, it hasn't even been assigned to a committee yet.

Hey! It's that "the best way to defeat them is to let them win" meme again. It's fast becoming the new battlecry for the 'non-creationist' creationists.

629 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:48:44pm

re: #626 HelloDare

Palate cleanser.

Aaaaahhh.

630 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:49:03pm

re: #378 jcm

You are using a computer. No direct observation of electronic signals can be made. Does that invalidate your computer?

No, but the results of the use of electronic signals has been experimentally observed many times. I never said that lack of observation dis-proves anything. It was only to point out that there are things in science we 'take on faith' not because we've seen the actual process, but because we've seen the results.

631 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:49:05pm

re: #620 OldLineTexan

YOU DISCOVERED STEP 2?

Ohboyohboyohboyohboy...BIG PROFITS are NEXT!

/my hero

Its "Phase 2" :p


Phase 1 - Steal Underpants

Phase 2 - ? ? ?

Phase 3 - $Profit$

632 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:49:27pm

re: #625 Gus 802

I'll assume that would be part of the overall ID curricula. So a science teacher would introduce Gilgamesh and other Bibilical stories as an alternative to geologic activity.

What else would they "oppose" I now wonder. What about hurricanes and atmospheric science?

Obviously hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are Divine punishment for immorality.
/Pat Robertson mode off.

633 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:49:31pm

re: #471 godfrey

DragonWolf is redefining "science," e.g.,

'Scientists' once thought they could transmute other metals into gold!

It's a fun game to play.

re: #491 calcajun

What? You mean I can't? Guess I'd better cancel that order for five tons of lead. Then again, I could use it for my reloads. Say, that's how you turn lead into cash!///

Today, turning lead into gold is actually an elementary (sorry about the pun) exercise in nuclear physics.

The cost of actually doing the process is greater than the difference in price between the lead with which you start and the resulting amount of gold, but changing to lead in gold can be done!

634 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:49:43pm

re: #616 Kosh's Shadow

Sure. I believe in protons and neutrons, but I haven't actually seen any.

In fact, I believe 0bama exists, but I've only seen his image in print and on computer and TV screens.

Are we required to believe 0bama exists? Can we make this all a really bad shared nightmare and wake up from it to sunshine and pretty flowers?

635 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:49:46pm

re: #626 HelloDare

Palate cleanser.

Beautiful.

636 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:50:10pm

re: #611 Killian Bundy

/it's now happening here, the fact that Mr. Beheader will end up in prison for murder doesn't change the incoming culture creep

The fact that it happens here doesn't mean it will become acceptable here. You aren't going to find any jurists letting beheaders off the hook because "it's their culture". No more than murders by garrote are somehow mitigated because the perps are from Sicily.

637 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:50:17pm

re: #627 pre-Boomer Marine brat

"leaders of the scientific community " you blankety-blank ...
[slaps hand over mouth]

(-:


Oh yea, not leaders of the scientific religious movement.

/ducks

638 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:50:24pm

re: #632 Kosh's Shadow

Obviously hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are Divine punishment for immorality.
/Pat Robertson mode off.

That's funny but some people probably still believe that in the American outback.

639 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:50:25pm

Last I checked, Al Gore was leading all kinds of scientists. To Kyoto 2.

640 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:50:31pm

re: #624 Hengineer

That's too bad about Bobby Jindal though, he'd be a great Republican counterpart to Obama, a young attractive-looking male of ethnic descent to represent the forward looking vision of our party, then he turns out to be "one of them".

/shakes head.

Bobby Jindal has so much dirt in his past, he has absolutely no chance of being elected. If the GOP puts him up as the nominee, he will LOSE. Everything the media tried to pin on Sarah Palin, Jindal actually did: he promoted and signed a creationism bill, he took part in an amateur exorcism and claimed it cured a woman of cancer, and possibly worst of all, he hangs out with people on the outer edges of fundamentalist Christianity, and at least one person who has associated with outright neo-Nazis: Bobby Jindal's Creationism and Alliance with David Barton.

Who is David Barton?

In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters' Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist "Christian Identity" theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the "true" chosen people of the Bible and charge that today's Jews are usurpers. Aside from being a virulent anti-Semite, Peters has advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. According to the Anti-Defamation League, other speakers at the event included white supremacist leader and 1992 presidential candidate James "Bo" Gritz, a leader of the radical and increasingly violent militia movement, and Malcolm Ross, a Holocaust denier from Canada. In November of that same year, Barton spoke at Kingdom Covenant College in Grants Pass, Oregon, another "Christian Identity" front group with ties to Peters.4

Asked to explain these actions, Barton's reply amounted to a not very creative "I didn't know they were Nazis" dodge. In a July 1993 letter, Barton assistant Kit Marshall wrote, "At the time we were contacted by Pete Peters, we had absolutely no idea that he was 'part of the Nazi movement.' He contacted us for David to speak for Scriptures for America. The title is quite innocuous. In all the conversations that I personally had with Pete Peters, never once was there a hint that they were part of a Nazi movement. I would also like to point out that simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs."5 An excuse like that might have washed one time, but it stretches the bounds of credulity to accept that Barton was twice duped by innocuous-sounding extremist organizations.

641 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:50:50pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

That makes as much sense as if you had said "I only believe in something if I already believe it".

642 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:51:03pm

re: #629 Last Mohican

Aaaaahhh.

Damn, I just got flashed by a chipmunk...


/s

643 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:51:14pm

re: #632 Kosh's Shadow

Obviously hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are Divine punishment for immorality.
/Pat Robertson mode off.

Wasn't 9/11 God's punishment for our tolerance to Gays?


/S

/runs away

644 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:51:23pm

re: #634 Mirage

Are we required to believe 0bama exists? Can we make this all a really bad shared nightmare and wake up from it to sunshine and pretty flowers?

With enough drugs, yes.
Did you forget your soma today?
/

645 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:51:40pm

re: #622 OldLineTexan

No wonder it goes so slowly ...

No, the lack of speed is because it's government :D

646 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:52:13pm

re: #624 Hengineer

That's too bad about Bobby Jindal though, he'd be a great Republican counterpart to Obama, a young attractive-looking male of ethnic descent to represent the forward looking vision of our party, then he turns out to be "one of them".

/shakes head.

Oh no! Don't tell me you're one of those horrid single-issue voters?

647 Pyrocles  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:52:29pm

Because, unfortunately, most of the party's constituency includes the Religious Right. And most of the Religious Right includes Creationist Evangelicals.

re: #623 freetoken

Have we answered this one yet?

648 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:52:39pm

re: #148 EtheWise

The anti-ID folks would be good leftists that masquerade as tolerant enlightned souls. I don't have much opinion either way but the intolerance is something you see on HuffPo.

Alienating people of faith within your party is really intelligent. Teaching alternative theories is hardly an issue of national security and yet, like moonbats, you work yourselves up into a frothy lather. As I read these ID comments from time to time I have to remind myself that I am on LGF and not Kos.

Polluting US public high school science education with religious dogmas results in less future competent US bioscientists, retards our development of new bioscience technologies (including defences against bioweapons attacks and the invention of new saleable products), and hamstrings our nation in both the national security and the economic arenas.

649 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:52:48pm

re: #640 Charles

And yet I'm still having nightmares that he will be put forth as the bright, new face of the party.

650 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:00pm

re: #640 Charles

Damn....of all the things I never knew....

651 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:01pm

re: #593 Dragonwolf

Last time I checked scientific research they had realized that there are instances where those equations of your's don't quite hold up. (in sub-atomic areas where gravitics and angular momentum don't follow prescribed patterns - and around black holes where pretty much everything gets screwy)

That equations they show me that are fully consistent with all experimental observations I will accept, for now.

To accept what we have now as the final answer would be bad science.


Where the Hell did I even remotely imply that science currently is the final answer or has even come close to the secrets of the Universe?
Just to be clear.. I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.
Next time you come to a thread about science and scientific methods do us all a favor and skip it...

652 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:14pm

re: #616 Kosh's Shadow

Sure. I believe in protons and neutrons, but I haven't actually seen any.

In fact, I believe 0bama exists, but I've only seen his image in print and on computer and TV screens.

I haven't seen individual electrons but a stream of them looks pretty from a safe distance.

653 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:16pm

re: #639 OldLineTexan

Last I checked, Al Gore was leading all kinds of scientists. To Kyoto 2.

Al Gore is an alien, trying to get us to destroy our technology so they can rule this part of the galaxy.
No, wait, I'm confusing reality with the science fiction story I'm writing.

654 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:27pm

re: #638 Gus 802

That's funny but some people probably still believe that in the American outback.

Yes, everyone who does not live in a major population center, or on the left or right coast (i.e., flyover country) is an uneducated rube.

655 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:38pm

re: #646 eschew_obfuscation

Oh no! Don't tell me you're one of those horrid single-issue voters?

I am a single-issue voter: what is best for my community, state and country. ;)

656 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:53:59pm

re: #646 eschew_obfuscation

Oh no! Don't tell me you're one of those horrid single-issue voters?

I wouldn't say that but there are a few key issues that are "red flag" issues, if you will.

657 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:54:42pm

re: #630 Dragonwolf

[...] there are things in science we 'take on faith' not because we've seen the actual process, but because we've seen the results.

Errors:
1. Serious misunderstanding of the scientific process. 2. Confusion between "take on faith" and deduction and inference.

658 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:54:46pm

re: #436 Gus 802

Science is not based on faith. Science is based on observations and empirical evidence which you might call "facts on the ground." When the Apollo 8 moon shot was being planned it was based on the accumulated knowledge from a variety of scientific fields. The basic foundation of this being mathematics.

If you think that science is a religion then I can only assume that you believe that mathematics is a religion based on faith. Evolution is a wide field that is not limited to your own limited knowledge of the particular science.

If you can show me the 'observations and empirical evidence' of the temperature at the core of the sun, I will withdraw my statement.

Mathmatics is still evolving. While it is very good, it is not yet the final answer.

659 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:54:55pm

re: #653 Kosh's Shadow

Al Gore is an alien, trying to get us to destroy our technology so they can rule this part of the galaxy.
No, wait, I'm confusing reality with the science fiction story I'm writing.

Al gore is a businessman.

Remember he owns tons of stock (if not helped create) in a business that sells carbon credits.

660 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:55:14pm

re: #637 Hengineer

Oh yea, not leaders of the scientific religious movement.

/ducks

(tempted to get shotgun, then realizing it'd be my own computer monitor I'd be blowing to hell)
*sulk*

(-:

661 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:55:23pm

re: #600 turn

Yeah, I'm fine. Down in beautiful San Diego today working 4 PM till 6 AM on a crash highway project. It is incredible weather wise down here today. How ya doing?

You staying in Hotel Circle down there? King regards Turn

662 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:55:27pm

re: #654 OldLineTexan

Yes, everyone who does not live in a major population center, or on the left or right coast (i.e., flyover country) is an uneducated rube.

There you are again Texan. My conscience! My guiding light!

663 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:56:07pm

re: #648 Salamantis

Polluting US public high school science education with religious dogmas results in less future competent US bioscientists, retards our development of new bioscience technologies (including defences against bioweapons attacks and the invention of new saleable products), and hamstrings our nation in both the national security and the economic arenas.

Don't worry, the democrats are killing our development of new bioscience without resorting to creationism. They'll kill the budget for research, and by nationalizing health care (and making it "cost effective"), take the money out of developing new pharmaceuticals.

Sometimes, I think both parties are out to ruin the country.

664 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:56:15pm

re: #647 Pyrocles

Because, unfortunately, most of the party's constituency includes the Religious Right.

I wonder if that is literally true.... is most of the GOP constituency the "Religious Right"?

665 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:56:32pm

A: "What does 'ID' refer to?"

B: "It refers to the movement that wants the biblical version of creation taught in public schools."

A: "What does 'ID' stand for?"

B: "The way in which they believe man was created: Incantations and Dirt"

666 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:56:48pm

re: #658 Dragonwolf

If you can show me the 'observations and empirical evidence' of the temperature at the core of the sun, I will withdraw my statement.

Mathmatics is still evolving. While it is very good, it is not yet the final answer.

I think you are just being a contrarian. You don't do it very well. No one here said that anything was the final answer. Get horses to eat the straw.

667 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:56:49pm

re: #636 Cato the Elder

The fact that it happens here doesn't mean it will become acceptable here. You aren't going to find any jurists letting beheaders off the hook because "it's their culture". No more than murders by garrote are somehow mitigated because the perps are from Sicily.

Again, you're missing the whole point.

/it's becoming more prevalent here, simply prosecuting honor killings after the fact, without acknowledging them for what they are, doesn't stop more women from getting killed in the name of Islam

668 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:57:09pm

re: #649 scottishbuzzsaw

And yet I'm still having nightmares that he will be put forth as the bright, new face of the party.

The GOP is going to do that. You can see it coming from four years away.

Louisiana's lucky Bobby Jindal - The hope of the party

669 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:57:17pm

re: #664 freetoken

I wonder if that is literally true.... is most of the GOP constituency the "Religious Right"?

I don't think that most of the GOP is the religious right, but for sure the loudest members of the GOP are the religious right.

670 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:57:24pm
671 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:57:59pm

re: #656 Hengineer

I wouldn't say that but there are a few key issues that are "red flag" issues, if you will.

Well, Charles DOES bring up an association I'd rather didn't exist. What Bobby Jindal believes about exorcism is his business as long as it doesn't get in the way of good judgement and leadership just like JFK and catholicism, Mitt Romney and Mormonism.

672 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:58:29pm

re: #162 EtheWise

Yeah furry old guy, subverting the Constitution by teaching an alternative theory is a threat to national security. Nice.

I better not teach my AP kids about religion or I am subverting the Constitution. . . what a sham!

You are free to teach you kids whatever you wish at home, to have the church of your choice do the same, and to enroll them in private schools that also do so; what you are NOT free to do is demand that the state indoctrinate other peoples' kids with your pet sectarian religious dogmas in public high school science class.

673 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:58:34pm

re: #668 Charles

The GOP is going to do that. You can see it coming from four years away.

Louisiana's lucky Bobby Jindal - The hope of the party

I need to read the article some time but I think that left-geared magazines are putting him up so that he can be shot down easily.

674 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:58:35pm

re: #662 Gus 802

There you are again Texan. My conscience! My guiding light!

I have decided to only be "stupid" or "racist", never both, and unfortunately Eric Holder beat ya to me.

Sorry.

675 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:13pm

re: #671 eschew_obfuscation

Well, Charles DOES bring up an association I'd rather didn't exist. What Bobby Jindal believes about exorcism is his business as long as it doesn't get in the way of good judgement and leadership just like JFK and catholicism, Mitt Romney and Mormonism.

It already has gotten in the way: he sigjned the ID bill in Louisiana.

676 filetandrelease  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:16pm

re: #607 Jimmah

It's a popular sentiment unfortunately. I just watched "The Day The Earth Stood Still". The Earth is 'saved' by aliens suddenly plunging the planet into a new and permanent dark age in which no machines or devices will ever work again.


The original was so much better. Where aliens simply stopped all machines on earth for a day to teach us a lesson in humility.

677 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:25pm

re: #640 Charles

Didn't 0bama have a significant number of questionable associations as well and the MSM simply glossed over them? It seems to me that no matter who is put forth on the Republican side the MSM will be tilted against them and make hay about anything they can dig up.

678 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:31pm

re: #555 gmsc

In other words, no states ban atheists from public service.

The fact that they passed such a law was my point. As with the anti evolution laws, the courts will strike them down, but the party pushing passage still looks silly.
Stopping bills unconstitutional bills before passage makes more sense, but then the religious right could not blame the ACLU or the liberal courts for striking then down. They do the same with some abortion bills, passing the most restrictive bill to score points with the base knowing full well it will not stand.

679 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:32pm

re: #602 pre-Boomer Marine brat

For reference: the original wording was "the religion of current beliefs"

Defining it as a religion is what's subjective.

Which "leaders of the scientific community expect acceptance without direct observation proof." Names?

define scientific community. does it include algore?

680 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:38pm

Republicans tap Louisiana governor for big speech.

HOUSTON (Reuters) - Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal's high-profile Republican response to President Barack Obama's first address to the U.S. Congress next week could be a key stepping stone for a possible White House bid in 2012.

681 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:49pm

re: #593 Dragonwolf

Last time I checked scientific research they had realized that there are instances where those equations of your's don't quite hold up. (in sub-atomic areas where gravitics and angular momentum don't follow prescribed patterns - and around black holes where pretty much everything gets screwy)

That equations they show me that are fully consistent with all experimental observations I will accept, for now.

To accept what we have now as the final answer would be bad science.

In science the "final answer" is rare. The Coldwater Labs elegant experiment definitively showing deoxyribonucleic acid as the genetic information carrier is the exception not the rule.

"I don't know" isn't a weakness, it's a strength. Religion papers over "I don't know" with "a miracle happen". Science is driven by "I don't know."

A theory having a number of "I don't knows" in it doesn't invalidate a theory.

Gravity is a field rife with "I don't knows" it still unknown, the actually mechanism that that allows bodies of mass to influence each other over distance. We know it does both through direct and indirect observation, we don't know how, we have not observed the mechanism of gravity, just the result. Do you similarly dismiss gravity because we don't know how it works?

682 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 1:59:52pm

re: #446 FurryOldGuyJeans

The poster has already admitted they posted from ignorance.

My bad. That's what I get for showing up late. Still has a smell about it, though.

683 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:10pm

re: #658 Dragonwolf

If you can show me the 'observations and empirical evidence' of the temperature at the core of the sun, I will withdraw my statement.

Mathmatics is still evolving. While it is very good, it is not yet the final answer.

It is done to the best of their ability with the given and most current tools. It is thus arrived at by observation and empirical evidence. You can research this at a NASA website.

Otherwise, I don't think you have any interest.

684 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:10pm

re: #651 HoosierHoops

[...] Just to be clear.. I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.
Next time you come to a thread about science and scientific methods do us all a favor and skip it...

Hoops! As I said above:

"Qui stultis videri eruditi volunt stulti eruditis videntur."


--Quintilian


("They would look wise among fools, but among the wise look foolish.")

685 calcajun  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:16pm

re: #639 OldLineTexan

Last I checked, Al Gore was leading all kinds of scientists. To Kyoto 2.

Look! Lemmings!

686 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:31pm

re: #658 Dragonwolf

If you can show me the 'observations and empirical evidence' of the temperature at the core of the sun, I will withdraw my statement.

Mathmatics is still evolving. While it is very good, it is not yet the final answer.

Now that we know neutrinos oscillate (change flavor between electron, muon, and tau flavors), we have confirmed our estimates of the fusion reactions at the core of the Sun. We can also perform fusion experiments on Earth, and use the equations we determine from all this to see if our calculations of the temperature match those from measuring the output of the Sun.

Again, indirect evidence, but still scientific and consistent. Even, for example, temperature gauges and thermometers rely on indirect measurements, such as the resistance of a sensor or the expansion of a fluid.

687 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:36pm

re: #658 Dragonwolf

If you can show me the 'observations and empirical evidence' of the temperature at the core of the sun, I will withdraw my statement.

Mathmatics is still evolving. While it is very good, it is not yet the final answer.

Temperature of the core of the sun.

Now, do you want us to stick a thermometer up its butt?

688 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:44pm

re: #679 Eowyn2

define scientific community. does it include algore?

No way.

689 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:00:53pm

re: #674 OldLineTexan

I have decided to only be "stupid" or "racist", never both, and unfortunately Eric Holder beat ya to me.

Sorry.

Whatever you say Texan. I'm sorry for making you my VICTIM of the day.

690 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:01:01pm

(I posted this earlier today, in answer to some other comment, but the context addresses this issue nicely. It was regarding whether the Democrats will self-destruct in 6 months and loose a lot of support)

No, Democrats will have power for at least 4 years, more like the full eight years. The "conservatives" are working on self destructing by running back behind the skirts of the religious right and mixing their politics with a dose of the "moral majority" again.

It's already back firing in their face. Look at the recent connections with "conservatives" and fascist leaning groups and persons.

Plus the fact that most of the Republican politicians are playing the same cards with special interests and big money.

Except for the social issues, it's hard to tell them apart.

And you can squarely blame it on the Republicans, no one else.

691 Kragar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:01:10pm

re: #668 Charles

The GOP is going to do that. You can see it coming from four years away.

Louisiana's lucky Bobby Jindal - The hope of the party

Meanwhile, Romney is "unelectable" since he is a Mormon

692 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:01:19pm

re: #665 gmsc

A: "What does 'ID' refer to?"

B: "The way in which they believe man was created: Incantations and Dirt"

False, wrt Incantations. They have a book, available almost anywhere, with the story in it.

I take it as allegory; unfortunately, they take it as a literal recipe.

But belittling it does no good.

693 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:01:25pm

TradeBait's logged in again.

694 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:01:29pm

re: #659 Hengineer

Al gore is a businessman.

Remember he owns tons of stock (if not helped create) in a business that sells carbon credits.

He also trades carbon credits in the company.

Try getting a green to explain the rationale behind carbon trading and if it actually targets polluters instead of being a massive Ponzi-type scheme, and you get a lot of hate and discontent thrown at you.

695 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:01:33pm

re: #678 avanti

The fact that they passed such a law was my point. As with the anti evolution laws, the courts will strike them down, but the party pushing passage still looks silly.
Stopping bills unconstitutional bills before passage makes more sense, but then the religious right could not blame the ACLU or the liberal courts for striking then down. They do the same with some abortion bills, passing the most restrictive bill to score points with the base knowing full well it will not stand.

Gee, I thought your point was that 5 states ban atheists from serving. I think I might've gotten that idea when you phrased it this way:

re: #490 avanti

5 states ban atheists from serving

696 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:11pm

re: #691 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Meanwhile, Romney is "unelectable" since he is a Mormon

The entire MFM told me that I would never vote for him!

/

697 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:17pm
698 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:22pm

re: #643 Hengineer

Wasn't 9/11 God's punishment for our tolerance to Gays?

/S

/runs away

Here's a gold mind of religious right quotes for you.

699 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:24pm

re: #691 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Meanwhile, Romney is "unelectable" since he is a Mormon

I sure am glad we're not doomed....

700 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:27pm

re: #673 Hengineer

I need to read the article some time but I think that left-geared magazines are putting him up so that he can be shot down easily.

The Economist's article is very straightforward. Jindal is going to give the "shadow" state of the Union talk. He would only be doing that if the RNC wanted to put him on show.

701 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:38pm

re: #192 EtheWise

Honorary Yooper: glad you're an anti-idotarian. Way to come up with your own ideas.

Your 'ideas' are ancient sectarian religious dogmas, derived from literal readings of metaphorical scriptural texts, so you have no room to speak.

702 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:45pm

re: #593 Dragonwolf

"That equations they show me that are fully consistent with all experimental observations I will accept, for now."

Wouldn't you have to understand the math to accept it? I doubt you have a good understanding of quantum mechanics for instance, one "equation" of which is that when you observe something you actually change what is being observed. Science reveals there are no absolutes, no fully consistent relationships between observations and "equations"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

703 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:02:50pm

re: #682 Slumbering Behemoth

My bad. That's what I get for showing up late. Still has a smell about it, though.

I was surprised they admitted they had no clue about the facts when they were so hot to trot out the hype.

704 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:01pm

re: #684 Cato the Elder

Hoops! As I said above:

"Qui stultis videri eruditi volunt stulti eruditis videntur."

--Quintilian

("They would look wise among fools, but among the wise look foolish.")

Most excellent Cato..It really applies today.

705 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:02pm

re: #681 jcm

In science the "final answer" is rare. The Coldwater Labs elegant experiment definitively showing deoxyribonucleic acid as the genetic information carrier is the exception not the rule.

"I don't know" isn't a weakness, it's a strength. Religion papers over "I don't know" with "a miracle happen". Science is driven by "I don't know."

A theory having a number of "I don't knows" in it doesn't invalidate a theory.

Gravity is a field rife with "I don't knows" it still unknown, the actually mechanism that that allows bodies of mass to influence each other over distance. We know it does both through direct and indirect observation, we don't know how, we have not observed the mechanism of gravity, just the result. Do you similarly dismiss gravity because we don't know how it works?

Speaking as an engineer who studied calculus-based physics and calculus 1 through 3, Differential Equations, and have also read Stephen Hawkings' book "A history of time", Its not that scientific theories are invalid, just that they are incomplete.

Newton's laws are valid, just incomplete considered the wide range of objects, particles, photos, etc... that behave in in their own way.

In natural human observance, Newton's Laws were very valid, and worked for just about all cases that humans could deal with at the time. Then Einstein showed up.....

706 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:05pm

re: #663 Kosh's Shadow

Don't worry, the democrats are killing our development of new bioscience without resorting to creationism. They'll kill the budget for research, and by nationalizing health care (and making it "cost effective"), take the money out of developing new pharmaceuticals.

Sometimes, I think both parties are out to ruin the country.

Nothing so nepharious as ruining the country. Just greed, plain and simple.

707 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:14pm

re: #675 Wishing

It already has gotten in the way: he sigjned the ID bill in Louisiana.

Yes, I agree, but that just brings us back to single-issue voting. Similar to evangelicals rejecting Juliani because of his stance on abortion when they would have agreed with most of his other positions.

Still, David Barton bothers me.

708 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:28pm

re: #689 Gus 802

Whatever you say Texan. I'm sorry for making you my VICTIM of the day.

Oh, I see. You're objecting to my objection.

It's still a free country. Run like hell with any scissor-like bigotry you like.

709 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:29pm

re: #667 Killian Bundy

Again, you're missing the whole point.

/it's becoming more prevalent here, simply prosecuting honor killings after the fact, without acknowledging them for what they are, doesn't stop more women from getting killed in the name of Islam

I fully acknowledge them for what they are, right along with you.

What does that do to stop them? If you have a concrete recommendation, I'd like to hear it.

("Campaigns" against domestic violence haven't cut down on its prevalence, to my knowledge.)

710 fish  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:31pm

I would just like to take a moment to point out that there is a difference between Young Earth Creationism and the Theory of Intelligent Design.

YEC is a faith based psuedo science that has a much credibility as the Flat earth society.

The Theory of Intelligent Design is one means of explaining what might have caused the Big Bang, Why do things which should be random seem to follow patterns (ie the number phi appearing in many species of plants) as well as others. Is everything random or is there an Intellegence at work? This only crosses over into the realm of religion when one tries to define the intelligence, label it, and claim to know its purpose.

P.S. The bill Charles mentioned at the top of the thread is badly written and should be defeated, even though I generally support "Acedemic Freedom" bills, I cannot support this one.

711 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:37pm
712 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:41pm

re: #653 Kosh's Shadow

Al Gore is an alien, trying to get us to destroy our technology so they can rule this part of the galaxy.
No, wait, I'm confusing reality with the science fiction story I'm writing.

You know... as bizarre as he is... this would not surprise me.

713 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:03:59pm

re: #687 Honorary Yooper

Temperature of the core of the sun.

Now, do you want us to stick a thermometer up its butt?

I suggest we give Dragonwolf a thermometer and send him on a mission to take the Sun's temperature. If he complains, tell him we'll send him at night.

714 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:04:10pm

re: #658 Dragonwolf

Theories are open to refinement and revision in the light of new evidence. In the case of evolution, such refinements have been made but not in a way that challenges the fundamentals. In fact they lend further support to the truth of the basic elements of evolutionary theory.

One thing that neither mathematics nor science will ever evolve into is anything remotely resembling the fantasies of the creationists.

715 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:04:18pm

re: #680 Charles

Republicans tap Louisiana governor for big speech.

You guys have your work cut out for you if that's true.

716 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:04:24pm

re: #606 OldLineTexan

Ha, crash as in "rush"

717 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:04:30pm

re: #687 Honorary Yooper

Temperature of the core of the sun.

Now, do you want us to stick a thermometer up its butt?

I'm right behind you!

718 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:04:47pm

re: #694 FurryOldGuyJeans

He also trades carbon credits in the company.

Try getting a green to explain the rationale behind carbon trading and if it actually targets polluters instead of being a massive Ponzi-type scheme, and you get a lot of hate and discontent thrown at you.

Hell all it does is allow polluters to keep polluting.

Its like the indulgences sold by the "Church" during the dark and middle ages, one of Martin Luther's issues with the Church. You can keep sinning if you just buy this piece of paper that says you're A-Ok.

719 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:04:49pm

re: #691 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Meanwhile, Romney is "unelectable" since he is a Mormon

That's what the MSM kept telling us. Wonder why a bunch of Obama-loving twits would tell us that?

Romney didn't get there because of Huckabee and McCain. And geeze, how I dislike Huckabee. Fricking slimeball.

720 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:05:09pm

re: #678 avanti

Sorry bubba, but you tried to throw out patently false propaganda and lies and you got called on it, big time.

Sniveling little cowardly shit.

721 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:05:34pm

re: #705 Hengineer

Speaking as an engineer who studied calculus-based physics and calculus 1 through 3, Differential Equations, and have also read Stephen Hawkings' book "A history of time", Its not that scientific theories are invalid, just that they are incomplete.

Newton's laws are valid, just incomplete considered the wide range of objects, particles, photos, etc... that behave in in their own way.

In natural human observance, Newton's Laws were very valid, and worked for just about all cases that humans could deal with at the time. Then Einstein showed up.....

Einstein really upset the apple cart......

722 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:06:33pm

re: #721 jcm

Einstein really upset the apple cart......

Yes he did but you realize that we still use Newton's laws to apply to most objects. Hell in College we used them in Statics and Dynamics.

723 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:06:34pm

re: #715 avanti

You guys have your work cut out for you if that's true.

So what are YOUR solutions to what you are complaining about constantly?

724 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:06:38pm

re: #688 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No way.

but he's the know-all, be-all of the global earth sciences. He knows about man made global warming and has even made carbon credits available to those too busy and too rich to worry about recycling.

725 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:07:26pm

re: #722 Hengineer

Yes he did but you realize that we still use Newton's laws to apply to most objects. Hell in College we used them in Statics and Dynamics.

Tell me about it.... I still have nightmares about Statistical Thermodynamics.

726 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:07:41pm

re: #687 Honorary Yooper

Temperature of the core of the sun.

Now, do you want us to stick a thermometer up its butt?

That would be insteresting ... first to determine where the butt of the sun is then engineer a probe to stick in then deliver it. :D

727 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:07:42pm

re: #661 HoosierHoops

No I'm in the burbs, some Quality Inn. I haven't seen much of the city unfortunately and probably won't before I return to Sac.

728 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:07:48pm

re: #710 fish

Bzzzzzt! You do not win the prize. Intelligent Design is nothing more than a reworking of Creation Science after the latter was defeated in court in Edwards v. Aguillard. It was after this case that Creation Science ceased to be and Intelligent Design took its place. Same thing, different label.

729 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:07:51pm

re: #710 fish


The Theory of Intelligent Design is one means of explaining what might have caused the Big Bang, Why do things which should be random seem to follow patterns (ie the number phi appearing in many species of plants) as well as others. Is everything random or is there an Intellegence at work? This only crosses over into the realm of religion when one tries to define the intelligence, label it, and claim to know its purpose.

Have you read about the ID movement and it's history?

730 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:08:02pm

re: #715 avanti

You guys have your work cut out for you if that's true.

the wall of corruption and bad govt is built on the backs of millions of droolers who worship at the alter of ACORN...what you say is true but not for the reason you say it...you people are like bugs

731 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:08:11pm

Who was it that said "he who gets offended the most first wins?" This is in relationship with modern social dynamics.

732 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:08:34pm

re: #725 jcm

Tell me about it.... I still have nightmares about Statistical Thermodynamics.

Thermo is a whole other animal, and I loved Thermodynamics. I think that the laws of thermo were dreamed up by someone else, though ;)

733 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:08:56pm

re: #711 RC51

I'm new, but would someone be so kind as to explain the fixation on creationism around here? I'm from Missouri and this isn't getting one drop of press coverage. It'll probably die in committee and was likely never written to pass anyway.

My kid's k-6 grade school spends about 2-4 hours on evolution in 6 years of schooling. It isn't worth getting work up over in my opinion.

Just like when a leftie introduces a annual bill on reparations, it'll be used against his party even if it's doomed to fail. The media loves fools on the fringes.

734 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:08:57pm

re: #710 fish

I would just like to take a moment to point out that there is a difference between Young Earth Creationism and the Theory of Intelligent Design.

YEC is a faith based psuedo science that has a much credibility as the Flat earth society.

The Theory of Intelligent Design is one means of explaining what might have caused the Big Bang, Why do things which should be random seem to follow patterns (ie the number phi appearing in many species of plants) as well as others. Is everything random or is there an Intellegence at work? This only crosses over into the realm of religion when one tries to define the intelligence, label it, and claim to know its purpose.

Nope, this is simply wrong. "Intelligent design" is religious to its very core. It's nothing but propaganda when they claim that it isn't -- a deceptive trick to get people to accept it as a scientific theory. Which it is NOT.

Read about the Wedge Strategy. The people who promote ID can't even keep their own lies straight.

735 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:09:06pm

I'll bet it was you, you are so wise.

736 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:09:13pm

re: #711 RC51

I will tell you what. We are going to explain the fixation one time for you, and then, if you don't understand it I suspect that you will receive a visit from Stinky.

This is not your blog and the owner of this blog, Charles, can post whatever in the fucking world he wants to and you have no fucking right to complain and tell him what he should do.

Understand?

737 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:09:31pm

re: #724 Eowyn2

*grit teeth*
Not gonna be tempted!
:D

738 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:09:33pm

re: #676 filetandrelease

The original was so much better. Where aliens simply stopped all machines on earth for a day to teach us a lesson in humility.

Yes, that's how I read it too. The switch off in the original was a lesson and/or warning, the one in the remake was more like luddite wish fulfillment.

739 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:09:43pm

re: #710 fish

The Theory of Intelligent Design is one means of explaining what might have caused the Big Bang, Why do things which should be random seem to follow patterns (ie the number phi appearing in many species of plants) as well as others. Is everything random or is there an Intellegence at work? This only crosses over into the realm of religion when one tries to define the intelligence, label it, and claim to know its purpose.

Merely postulating an intelligent designer crosses the line.

740 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:10:58pm

re: #718 Hengineer

Hell all it does is allow polluters to keep polluting.

Its like the indulgences sold by the "Church" during the dark and middle ages, one of Martin Luther's issues with the Church. You can keep sinning if you just buy this piece of paper that says you're A-Ok.

And Gore is the pope of the Church of Global Warming.

741 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:11:11pm

re: #710 fish

I would just like to take a moment to point out that there is a difference between Young Earth Creationism and the Theory of Intelligent Design.

YEC is a faith based psuedo science that has a much credibility as the Flat earth society.

The Theory of Intelligent Design is one means of explaining what might have caused the Big Bang, Why do things which should be random seem to follow patterns (ie the number phi appearing in many species of plants) as well as others. Is everything random or is there an Intellegence at work? This only crosses over into the realm of religion when one tries to define the intelligence, label it, and claim to know its purpose.

P.S. The bill Charles mentioned at the top of the thread is badly written and should be defeated, even though I generally support "Acedemic Freedom" bills, I cannot support this one.

Intelligent Design includes YEC's....

What's different between explaining the why and how?
Science explains how
Religion explains why

Leave the two separate but some people (like myself) still use both to explain the why and how.

YEC's AND Intelligent Designers are trying to explain the how with Religion or religious ideas....

IT JUST WON'T WORK.

742 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:11:28pm

re: #681 jcm

In science the "final answer" is rare. The Coldwater Labs elegant experiment definitively showing deoxyribonucleic acid as the genetic information carrier is the exception not the rule.

"I don't know" isn't a weakness, it's a strength. Religion papers over "I don't know" with "a miracle happen". Science is driven by "I don't know."

A theory having a number of "I don't knows" in it doesn't invalidate a theory.

Gravity is a field rife with "I don't knows" it still unknown, the actually mechanism that that allows bodies of mass to influence each other over distance. We know it does both through direct and indirect observation, we don't know how, we have not observed the mechanism of gravity, just the result. Do you similarly dismiss gravity because we don't know how it works?

No I do not. I actually agree with you 100%

I was merely pointing out how both are based on I don't know and take different paths for dealing with it. Of the two paths science is the much more rational and functional. But...

"Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated." --Tyron Edwards

And to keep from disrupting HoosierHoops sensibilities and beliefs any more. I'll leave it at that.

743 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:11:37pm

re: #287 A.W.

I am probably wasting my time by saying this, but...

Okay, assuming this is all stealth creationism isn't getting upset at THIS stage playing into their hands?

All the bill says is it is about teaching people to think critically and question. So all you do by getting excited at this stage is you make yourself look like you are against thinking critically and asking questions.

If this is designed to be creationist in effect, rather than being obviously so on the surface, fine, then guess what? you have to wait for the effects to bear out. Then you can say "they say this is about questioning, but this is really about indoctrinating a person into a religiously based point of view. They say this is about critical thinking but what they really want is uncritical acceptance."

Because bluntly, on its face, there is nothing wrong with this bill. all theories are subject to question and critical thinking. Nothing is more antithetical to the scientific method than saying that a subject is closed and thereofore not subject to further analysis. i mean, my God, just a week or so ago scientists postulated that we are in fact hologams in 3 dimensions representing objects in 4. i think that's probably crap, but if it was true, how much would that upset certain assumptions about our lives? you never know when something out of left field might really upset the apple cart. Like we find written in our DNA, in latin, "made in Alpha Centauri." something crazy like that. I'm not saying any of that is likely, but we have to keep ourselves open minded. that is what differentiates science from religion, among other things. we look at the evidence, we reason an explanation, but we recongize that we might not be seeing the whole picture, and we recognize that every explanation is subject to revision.

So say to them, "sure question. but don't indoctrinate and misinform under the guise of 'questioning.'"

Show Me the Science
[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

744 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:11:48pm

re: #711 RC51

Fixation? These posts account for about 5% of the total posts on LGF. A fixation, 5% is not.

745 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:11:51pm

re: #694 FurryOldGuyJeans

He also trades carbon credits in the company.

Try getting a green to explain the rationale behind carbon trading and if it actually targets polluters instead of being a massive Ponzi-type scheme, and you get a lot of hate and discontent thrown at you.

Its kind of like his selling his tobacco farm. Um, what is being grown on that old farm of yours Al?

746 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:12:31pm

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

With respect, Walter, that could have been an honest question.

747 A.W.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:12:35pm

Charles

Look at what Ben Stien and all them are doing right now. They are saying "you are intolerant."

And then they put out a bill saying, we are going to teach people to question.

If you oppose that, you play into that narrative. Its that simple. Don't make the issue whether you are tolerant or not. Say, "my theory can stand up to questioning" and then do it.

You know, it was not just Darwin's birthday recently, but Lincoln's too. And what Lincoln and other republicans did to hurt slavery is they partially changed the subject. They held up the bodies of men like Elijah Lovejoy, who died defending his press from an antiabolitionist mob. They passed states-rights measures designed at thwarting slavery. They asked whether the South would allow a "Northern Man with Northern Principles" to become president. They made the intolerance and outright hypocrisy of the slaveholders a serious issue and they won that debate. They elected Lincoln in 1860, they got a civil war, they won it and then shoved freedom down the south's throat (and i say that with approval).

That tactic was used for good by Lincoln et al., but it could be used by others for bad goals, such as the promotion of faith in the guise of science.

If someone says "they have questions" about evolution, it is never the right answer to shout "creationist!" The right answer is to hear the question and answer it. Yes, even if they question is fed to them by people whose motives you question.

So when you oppose a bill that merely calls on people to question, yes, you look intolerant, and you allow them to change the subject to whether or not you are intolerant. Its a losing strategy.

Don't play into their trap.

748 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:13:13pm

re: #680 Charles

Republicans tap Louisiana governor for big speech.

From that article:

"He's smart. He's confident. He knows his stuff."

That sounds too much like, "clean and articulate."

"I can easily see him being a presidential contender, but you can also see him being a commentator on FOX," Goidel said, referring to the U.S. television network.

Oh, now that I can see too. With Buchanan, Coulter, and the others selected by the MSM to represent Republicans.

749 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:14:17pm

re: #613 calcajun

Two locations, Pia Rancho 2 mi S of Hwy 78 in Escandito and on Hwy 56 where they are opening up the commuter lane changes with the movable barrier. Are you in SD?

750 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:14:21pm

re: #737 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*grit teeth*
Not gonna be tempted!
:D

If I were a comediene, I could do a 10 hour show on gorbalization.

751 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:14:39pm

re: #715 avanti

You guys have your work cut out for you if that's true.

It will happen over time. Eventually, constituencies want results, and dogmas will get pushed aside for the sake of practical matters. But in the meantime a great deal of wheel-spinning will eat up time and effort that could be better spent elsewhere.

Your point about politicians raising issues and submitting bills or passing laws, which in the end they know will get overturned, but nevertheless are done for show... is well taken. Playing the victim card is a useful tactic anywhere on the ideologically spectrum. Humans are built to give sympathy, and worldly-wise politicians know that.

752 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:14:48pm

re: #697 Iron Fist

Obama consorted with real, honest to God (or Gaia, if you prefer) terrorists who had killed people and blown shit up. It will kind of be hard for the GOP to out-do that no matter who they put on the ticket.

You're exactly right and he got a pass for them because he was the Dems' golden boy, but no one "on the other side" would get the same softball treatment.

753 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:15:43pm

re: #750 Eowyn2

If I were a comediene, I could do a 10 hour show on gorbalization.

As I well know!

754 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:15:50pm

re: #740 Kosh's Shadow

And Gore is the pope of the Church of Global Warming.

I first saw that as "And Gore is the poop of the Church of Global Warming."

755 Eowyn2  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:15:50pm

re: #740 Kosh's Shadow

And Gore is the pope of the Church of Global Warming.

No, there's only one papal entity. Gore is the Goracle.

756 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:16:10pm

re: #746 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With respect, Walter, that could have been an honest question.

Maybe. Sorry, I just get tired of it. And Charles' procedure for registration sort of "forces" a person to pay attention to this site, so I find it hard to believe that someone could just stumble onto this place, get signed up and never have seen the way things move around here.

IMHO

757 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:16:17pm

re: #709 Cato the Elder

I fully acknowledge them for what they are, right along with you.

What does that do to stop them? If you have a concrete recommendation, I'd like to hear it.

Keep shining the light of day on it, call spades when they're trump.

/instead of just shrugging shoulders when this defense attorney, it's his professional obligation to do so in defense of his client, attempts to sweep the honor killing issue under the rug smack in the face of reality

758 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:16:20pm

re: #730 albusteve

the wall of corruption and bad govt is built on the backs of millions of droolers who worship at the alter of ACORN...what you say is true but not for the reason you say it...you people are like bugs

I'm beginning to wonder if there is something in the DNA of some on the right that makes civil discussion impossible.

759 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:16:39pm

re: #747 A.W.

Stein is one of the most deceptive people around, rightly blasting MM for propaganda in his documentaries, and yet he turns around and outdoes MM for sheer audacity of lies, misquotes and deceitful editing with Expelled.

760 KronoGhazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:16:41pm

I thought I heard some toilets flushing....

761 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:17:04pm
762 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:17:58pm

re: #747 A.W.

Look at what Ben Stien and all them are doing right now. They are saying "you are intolerant."

I thought it was the left who intimidated people into silence with the 'intolerance' accusations?

763 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:18:40pm

re: #758 avanti

I'm beginning to wonder if there is something in the DNA of some on the right that makes civil discussion impossible.

I could care less if I have a civil discussion with you...you know what you are and what you've done

764 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:18:42pm

re: #758 avanti

Do much painting with that excessively broad brush you keep using?

765 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:18:59pm

re: #747 A.W.

So when you oppose a bill that merely calls on people to question, yes, you look intolerant, and you allow them to change the subject to whether or not you are intolerant.

You're exactly right. I AM intolerant -- of deceptive legislation intended to corrupt the teaching of science to American children.

Completely, 100% intolerant.

And I'm not going to wait until the bills pass. Sorry. Try that approach on someone a little more gullible.

766 Annar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:19:31pm

re: #722 Hengineer

Yes he did but you realize that we still use Newton's laws to apply to most objects. Hell in College we used them in Statics and Dynamics.

There is a old joke about the differential geometer who called the Flat Earth Society to see if he could join the local chapter without joining the global society. Of course this joke has no meaning for one who does not understand the math needed to really understand how and why Einstein generalized Newton without obviating his theory.

767 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:19:50pm

re: #742 Dragonwolf

No I do not. I actually agree with you 100%

I was merely pointing out how both are based on I don't know and take different paths for dealing with it. Of the two paths science is the much more rational and functional. But...

"Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated." --Tyron Edwards

And to keep from disrupting HoosierHoops sensibilities and beliefs any more. I'll leave it at that.

Full disclosure.

I'm a Christian and fully BELIEVE in the Bible. I also know and understand science, including evolution. I don't have a conflict between the two. They are separate and distinct realms. It's not two paths, it's two realms. One of spirituality, the other of physicality.

My degree is in Bio-chem, I work in electronics. Mr. Edwards is mixing realms, certainly science can rest on certain assumptions until evidence can fill in the blank, but that is not faith, it's a reasonable working bridge for the unknowns.

768 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:19:51pm

re: #762 scottishbuzzsaw

I thought it was the left who intimidated people into silence with the 'intolerance' accusations?

Nope. Empirical data has shown that Political Correctness is relative and the force it creates is equal on both sides of the political spectrum.

769 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:20:05pm

re: #758 avanti

Sounds like a nurture vs nature question...

/this is an evolution thread....

770 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:20:35pm

re: #668 Charles

The GOP is going to do that. You can see it coming from four years away.

Louisiana's lucky Bobby Jindal - The hope of the party

Oh, great, Jindal vs. 0bama in 2012?

I can see the 2012 poll question already:

Complete the following question:
I am voting for the candidate who believes in . . .
[ ] A) . . . magic economics
[ ] B) . . . magic anthropology and astronomy

771 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:21:08pm

re: #747 A.W.

Charles

Look at what Ben Stien and all them are doing right now. They are saying "you are intolerant."

And then they put out a bill saying, we are going to teach people to question.

If you oppose that, you play into that narrative. Its that simple. Don't make the issue whether you are tolerant or not. Say, "my theory can stand up to questioning" and then do it.

You know, it was not just Darwin's birthday recently, but Lincoln's too. And what Lincoln and other republicans did to hurt slavery is they partially changed the subject. They held up the bodies of men like Elijah Lovejoy, who died defending his press from an antiabolitionist mob. They passed states-rights measures designed at thwarting slavery. They asked whether the South would allow a "Northern Man with Northern Principles" to become president. They made the intolerance and outright hypocrisy of the slaveholders a serious issue and they won that debate. They elected Lincoln in 1860, they got a civil war, they won it and then shoved freedom down the south's throat (and i say that with approval).

That tactic was used for good by Lincoln et al., but it could be used by others for bad goals, such as the promotion of faith in the guise of science.

If someone says "they have questions" about evolution, it is never the right answer to shout "creationist!" The right answer is to hear the question and answer it. Yes, even if they question is fed to them by people whose motives you question.

So when you oppose a bill that merely calls on people to question, yes, you look intolerant, and you allow them to change the subject to whether or not you are intolerant. Its a losing strategy.

Don't play into their trap.

So WE are being intolerant for saying that religion does not belong in science classes? Explain how that is intolerant please.

772 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:21:38pm

re: #758 avanti

You keep complaining....where are YOUR ideas and solutions to the problems you so gleefully keep kvetching about?

773 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:22:01pm

re: #747 A.W.

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

774 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:22:02pm

re: #768 Gus 802

Nope. Empirical data has shown that Political Correctness is relative and the force it creates is equal on both sides of the political spectrum.

Agreed. I was trying to address his point of view, however.

775 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:22:04pm
776 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:22:37pm

re: #756 Walter L. Newton

Maybe. Sorry, I just get tired of it. And Charles' procedure for registration sort of "forces" a person to pay attention to this site, so I find it hard to believe that someone could just stumble onto this place, get signed up and never have seen the way things move around here.

IMHO

I know. The reaction's perfectly understandable.
Of course, not that I MYSELF ever... *slapping hand over growing nose*

777 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:23:15pm

re: #773 Basho

Gah... Always forget to put the quote:

There is no virtue in politeness when confronted with ignorance, dishonesty, and delusion. I want them to charge in to the heart of the issue and shred the frauds, without hesitation and without faltering over manners. These demands for a false front of civility are one of the strategies used by charlatans who want to mask their lack of substance — oh, yes, it would be so goddamned rude to point out that a huckster is lying to you. I am quite happy that we have a culture of being rude to frauds here.

778 turn  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:23:35pm

BBL - calcajun I'll check for comments tomorrow.

779 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:23:42pm

re: #747 A.W.

Pathetic. The issue of whether or not the questions are valid, and whether ID is in any sense 'science' obviously have no importance for you. As soon as someone screams intolerance we must give in to them...if we don't, we're gulity of the charge. Yours is a formula for letting every unscientific inanity in the world into science classes. And we should do this insane thing just to avoid giving Ben Stein and his cronies something to smile about? That doesn't even begin to make sense. What would really make him smile would be if we were to follow your suggestion and stop fighting this crud.

780 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:24:35pm

re: #775 claspur

And your point is...?

781 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:24:37pm

re: #775 claspur

Gee, telling the owner of the blog what he can or can't post since you don't like it.

782 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:24:39pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

When does science=religion?
If science=ideas based on observable fact
&
religion=ideas that must be taken on faith
then
Where does a system that tells me that I must accept that they know the temperature at the center of the sun, the mass of the universe, even the exact rotational speed of the core of the earth without any direct observation of these items? Would that not be a religion with 'scientists' as its priests?

No, because scientists can empirically demonstrate their contentions; religion requires belief.

Now, I believe 99% of what scientists say, but I also know how many research dollars are at stake when it comes to maintaining the current paradigm of reality, even in biology.

You've gotta be kidding me! Any scientist that refuted the central tenets of evolutionary theory would receive the Nobel Prize, tenure at an Ivy League university, fat research grants in perpetuity, and an esteemed place in the history of science.

Should creationism be taught, NO WAY. But should science be regarded as separate and better than religion? Let me ask you this...Wasn't it the scientists who said the world was flat until they had more evidence? Isn't science merely the religion of current beliefs until new evidence comes to light?

No, it wasn't. It was scientists who figured out that the world was round. Flat earth and geocentrism were religious dogmas, and the Church threatened scientists who disagreed with stake barbeques. Empirical science proceeds on the basis of empirical evidence, while dogmatic religion possesses not a shred of it.

Where do we draw the line between what we can and cannot question in science. I don't know. But I'd rather deal with the silly debates like creationism than quash all questioning of the current paradigm.

Let there be scientific heretics, aren't they usually the ones who make the greatest discoveries?

Everything is constantly being questioned in science, by scientists. That is the difference between empirical science, which allows theories to evolve in response to new data, and dogmatic religion, that forever freezes its millennia-old contentions like fossilized flies in ancient amber in the face of all the empirical evidence to the contrary that has emerged in the interim. Religious dogmatists are not the same as scientific heretics.

783 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:24:45pm

re: #742 Dragonwolf

No I do not. I actually agree with you 100%

I was merely pointing out how both are based on I don't know and take different paths for dealing with it. Of the two paths science is the much more rational and functional. But...

"Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated." --Tyron Edwards

And to keep from disrupting HoosierHoops sensibilities and beliefs any more. I'll leave it at that.

oh please..You won't disrupt my sensibilities or beliefs..or hurt my feelings..
I posted a link to one of the smartest mathmatician/Scientist in the world..Did you take 5 secs to click it?
Ask him a question and I'd be happy to read what he says...
If we got off on the wrong foot..I'm deeply sorry.. I believe we advance as humanity by seeking true science..I know we aren't even close yet..I know that. Maybe hundreds of years from now kids will browse to this blog archive and laugh about how silly our understanding of science is..
But at least it will be science and technology that we advance mankind.. Medicine ect.. Our total understanding of the world is murky.. The only way to see more is to clean the glass with science...

784 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:25:26pm

re: #780 Basho

And your point is...?

Jack Daniels can beat up Jim Beam?

785 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:26:03pm

re: #777 Basho

Yep. I can think of far worse things than Ben Stein calling us intolerant. For example, letting idiotic creationist anti-science drivel into science classes.

786 filetandrelease  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:26:08pm

re: #738 Jimmah

I was excited about the remake. It took about 5 minutes to get nauseous. They came to wipe us out because we are destroying our precious planet. Paying for that drivel is enough to make me start using Vuze again.

787 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:26:15pm

re: #780 Basho

And your point is...?


Point? Why does an anti-evolution rant have to have a point? You keep wanting logic and facts when someone wants to froth at the mouth and spray spittle.

788 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:26:44pm

re: #756 Walter L. Newton

Maybe. Sorry, I just get tired of it. And Charles' procedure for registration sort of "forces" a person to pay attention to this site, so I find it hard to believe that someone could just stumble onto this place, get signed up and never have seen the way things move around here.

IMHO

Newbies: The keystone cops of the Internet..
How did It go today Walter..What Colors are you using?

789 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:28:27pm

Anyone here from the Austin Texas area?

I received this in email today:
Join Texas Freedom Network in Austin and Stand Up for Science!

Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9 a.m. - 4 p.m.
First United Methodist Church Family Life Center
1201 Lavaca Street, Austin, Texas

Subject: Evolution and science curriculum in public school classrooms, and the structure and power of the State Board of Education.

Reserve your seat today:
[Link: www.tfn.org...]

790 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:28:41pm
791 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:29:05pm

Here is an interesting page about evolution at this Indiana.edu site.

ORIGIN OF LIFE LESSONS
It is important to clearly distinguish the evolution of different species (with its very strong supporting evidence) from the origin of the very first life (which is still unclear, with several different scenarios still being explored). Consequently, interactive lessons are planned for this section which will focus on studies which address this frontier topic.

I personally like that they promote teaching this distinction. I wonder if that would be enough to satisfy the creationists who want to interject disclaimers into the evolution curriculla. I wonder also if it would upset some at the other end of the religous spectrum for being nothing more than stealth creationism.

I think the people who push the stealth (and not so stealth) creationist bills want you to think that evolution and atheism are two sides of the same coin and if you subscribe to the science you deny your maker. And that tactic works on lots of people who are too ignorant to know any better.

792 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:29:16pm

re: #757 Killian Bundy

Keep shining the light of day on it, call spades when they're trump.

/instead of just shrugging shoulders when this defense attorney, it's his professional obligation to do so in defense of his client, attempts to sweep the honor killing issue under the rug smack in the face of reality

Agreed. I don't think anyone who knows anything about the case and the culture believes this attorney's line, do you? It's a case of "he doth protest too much".

793 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:30:01pm

re: #371 Dragonwolf

Why not. They are best guesses at this point. I view them as very highly probable guesses, but guesses none-the-less. Why must I accept as fact now, what they may disprove with direct evidence when our technology advances sufficiently?

I don't claim they're wrong, only that the scientific community expects everyone to take what they say as gospel, even without direct evidence. That to me is the basic definition of religion.

Umm, no, we HAVE direct evidence for evolution. In paleontology (many transitional forms). In genetics (artifactual retroviral sequences, and the fact that all genomic codons in all organisms use the same heuristic to translate into protein production). And even in research laboratories (Richard Lenski's for example). It ain't guessing when you have the empirical evidence for it, and it ain't religion, either.

794 claspur  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:30:39pm

re: #790 claspur
My full comment got chopped....so much for freedom of speech....

795 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:31:38pm

re: #784 freetoken

Jack Daniels can beat up Jim Beam?

Crown Royale is the smoking hot girl in the corner that nobody had the guts to walk up and talk to...
Moonshine is the girl that had a baby in 9th grade..

796 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:31:39pm

re: #785 Jimmah

Yep. I can think of far worse things than Ben Stein calling us intolerant. For example, letting idiotic creationist anti-science drivel into science classes.

Yeah. The intolerant card is successful in sociological circumstances, so they think it'll work in the sciences. Ironically, these same people will cry fowl when, for example, muslim get their way on some dumb cause.

Apparently, they are incapable of realizing that if they can't understand things that are empirical, how in the hell are they going to understand more nuanced sociological and economical issues?

797 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:31:54pm
798 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:32:03pm

re: #703 FurryOldGuyJeans

I was surprised they admitted they had no clue about the facts when they were so hot to trot out the hype.

That often happens. Many times I've seen trolls come on these threads claiming they know nothing about this issue, and asking folks to please explain it to them, only to turn around and start spewing talking points taken verbatim from the DI playbook.

799 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:32:13pm

re: #794 claspur

My full comment got chopped....so much for freedom of speech....

So much for your LGF account.

800 fish  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:32:36pm

I want to be very clear about this.

I agree with most of the posters here on the following points:

1) YEC is a religion and supported in no means by science.
2) The "Acedemic Freedom" bills are being used in an attempt to get religion into the classroom.
3) the Theory of Inteligent Design has been taken over by YEC and is often used to promote a religious veiwpoint.

Points where I disagree with many of you:

1) Intelligent Design is a valid scientific viewpoint.
2) The "Acedemic Freedom" bills (If Properly written) can ensure scientific process is taught in our schools.

801 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:32:59pm

re: #751 freetoken


Your point about politicians raising issues and submitting bills or passing laws, which in the end they know will get overturned, but nevertheless are done for show... is well taken. Playing the victim card is a useful tactic anywhere on the ideologically spectrum. Humans are built to give sympathy, and worldly-wise politicians know that.

I once owned a stereo store and opposed a new law that stated if you could hear a car stereo at 25 feet, you'd be charged with a misdemeanor and fined a $100. I played Kate Smith singing God Bless America on a tiny pocket tape recorder to show it could be heard in a quite environment from 100 feet and pointed out there were laws on the books for disturbing the peace to cover the issue more fairly.
After spending a lot of time fighting the law, I decided a court test would be needed once it passed. I was quietly informed that no one would be cited under the new law since they knew it would fail. That was 12 years ago, and still no test.
It was a great civics lesson for the kids helping me fight the law. We learned the law was going to be passed no matter the facts presented, then learned it was just a political ploy to earn points.

802 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:33:05pm

re: #797 claspur
re: #797 claspur

*hamsters are running well today.... *sigh

Your posts bore me.

803 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:33:26pm

re: #799 Charles

Uber, epic ownage!@

804 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:34:10pm

re: #747 A.W.

Charles

Look at what Ben Stien and all them are doing right now. They are saying "you are intolerant."

And then they put out a bill saying, we are going to teach people to question.

If you oppose that, you play into that narrative. Its that simple. Don't make the issue whether you are tolerant or not. Say, "my theory can stand up to questioning" and then do it.

...

If someone says "they have questions" about evolution, it is never the right answer to shout "creationist!" The right answer is to hear the question and answer it. Yes, even if they question is fed to them by people whose motives you question.

So when you oppose a bill that merely calls on people to question, yes, you look intolerant, and you allow them to change the subject to whether or not you are intolerant. Its a losing strategy.

Don't play into their trap.

I was going to give you the opportunity to explain "bad politics" before I down-dinged you. Now you've given your argument. And it sucks donkey eggs.

The creationists believe that they are fighting a holy struggle to weaken opposition to their faith. When people wait around before it's "politically wise" to oppose their bills, the creationists win. That is because the creationists want to win.

Opposing bills like this now, especially if right-wingers do it, puts it in the news where people can see exactly what it is the bill, and its supporters, are trying to do. And it forces the kooks out of hiding. Eventually, either the creationists back down or else they humiliate the Republican Party.

805 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:34:54pm

re: #800 fish

3) the Theory of Inteligent Design has been taken over by YEC and is often used to promote a religious veiwpoint.

There is NO theory of intelligent design. It's a religious dogma, nothing more.

1) Intelligent Design is a valid scientific viewpoint.

No, it is not.

2) The "Acedemic Freedom" bills (If Properly written) can ensure scientific process is taught in our schools.

Not when they're written with deception in mind, to sneak religious dogma into science classes. There is NO NEED for an "academic freedom" bill; the only reason these bills exist is as stalking horses for creationism.

806 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:35:09pm

re: #794 claspur

Heh, this is a private party.

That is too often overlooked... there is still a difference in this country between public and private domains, and that is partly what all these ID threads are about.

Public schools are public.

Blogs are private property.

The rules are different.

807 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:35:22pm

re: #794 claspur

My full comment got chopped....so much for freedom of speech....

You fool. You have no constitutional right that guarantees you can say whatever you like on someone else's private property. Your freedom of speech does not extend beyond your property or the public square, and even then there are reasonable limitations.

808 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:36:10pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

I understand science. I understand applying the observed principles of fluid dynamics to the rotation of the earth. I understand how red-shift is used to estimate how far away from earth a star is and whether it is getting closer or farther away. I understand how scientists apply their observed principles of gravitation in trying to estimate the mass of the universe. I understand that if we don't work from certain assumptions about how reality functions, nothing would ever happen.

Why do you assume I don't know or understand science, merely because I am not willing to accept everything they say without question?

I'm merely pointing out the similarities between the all-powerful science and the religions that it claims to be so different from.

And we are pointing out the differences. Things like empirically supported scientific assertions vs. empirically bereft religious dogmas - in other words, the presence of empirical evidence vs. its absence.

809 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:36:38pm

re: #794 claspur

My full comment got chopped....so much for freedom of speech....

So much for knowledge of the subject......

810 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:37:31pm

re: #794 claspur

My full comment got chopped....so much for freedom of speech....

There is a standard for what can/should be posted and what cannot/should not be posted. Just like you cannot shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre or "Bomb!" on an airplane; when something is removed there is always a valid reason for it.

811 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:37:42pm

re: #800 fish


1) Intelligent Design is a valid scientific viewpoint.

It is? Sweet! Maybe you will be the first to answer these few simple questions I've been asking for some time, to no avail:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

812 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:39:31pm

re: #789 jaunte

It doesn't matter what you say for the next month.. I'm updinging you for the wonderful art you did on the LGF cookbook..The cookbook makes for a really nice little gift for family or friends this coming year...
/ you know..ya need a little side gift for your Aunt's best friend yet you have no idea what to bring to the party.( usually wine )..Give them a signed copy of the LGF cook book..You can't go wrong with a cookbook.

813 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:39:39pm

re: #796 Basho

The idea of science as being intolerant of 'other views' just because of piddling little trifles such as lack of evidence and logic reminds me a lot of those famously terrible feminist/marxist critiques of science, the sort that make complaints like 'these equations are sexist and imperialist because they privelage the speed of light over other speeds that ought to be of equal interest'.

Scientists and their nasty jackbooted equations, eh?/

814 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:39:42pm

re: #811 Slumbering Behemoth

See the oppression inherent in your all-powerful scientific system?!
/

815 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:41:33pm

re: #812 HoosierHoops

Thanks! I enjoyed working on the project.

816 Mirage  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:41:56pm

re: #814 jaunte

See the oppression inherent in your all-powerful scientific system?!
/

Help, help, you're being repressed?

Gotta love MP

817 freetoken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:42:19pm

re: #801 avanti


We learned the law was going to be passed no matter the facts presented, then learned it was just a political ploy to earn points.

Yup. Just like a puppy with a squeaky toy, groups of voters can be entertained with the most mindless of panders by politicians. Sometimes the ploys are harmless.... other times they can be the beginnings of something worse.

I guess the fear is, over these so called "free inquiry" bills, is that they are the nose under the tent. My belief is that the Supreme Court will eventually get one of these things on their docket and have to make another ruling, though it ought not be necessary. What a waste of time and political energy by the ID crowd, but also a fly in the ointment for the GOP to build a new majority. As long as the GOP is perceived to be beholden to the religious right, the "middle ground" voters will be put off of the GOP as a whole, and American politics will be left with a mostly toothless minority party vs. an awkward behemoth of a big-tent part.

818 Clemente  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:45:04pm

re: #795 HoosierHoops

...
Moonshine is the girl that had a baby in 9th grade..

She was 19 at the time...

819 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:48:43pm

re: #424 palarson

You should not be surprised if people doubt you when you assert as scientific truth that which provides no advantage whatsoever, particularly when it contradicts beliefs on their part which they think do.

Darwin and Mendel provided the intellectual impetus that persuaded Watson & Crick to identify and isolate DNA. It is through the genetic manipulation of DNA that we now have hardier crops, that can grow in wider areas, are more resistent to parasites, and produce more food. And allowed us to splice a daffodil gene sequence into the rice genome, producing a vitamin A rich grain that keeps millions of poor Southeast Asian children from coming down with rickets. I don't wanna hear this false 'no advantage' bullshit from you ever again.

Stop whining about what other people think and figure out some way to harness your theory. The best way to get my attention is to turn it to a money making or resource multiplying advantage.

See above.

Pointing to several instances of a rabbit being pulled from a seemingly empty hat doesn't prove that rabbits materialize from the insides of hats. You should be delighted that this sort of empirical evidence doesn't carry much weight.

Reconstructing extinct retroviruses from the genetic sequences that were ancient embedded in our genomes ain't magic, it's science. So was splicing a genetic bioluminescence sequence from jellyfish into the mouse genome, allowing us to better study the fine-grained structure and function of induced cancerous tumors.

Evolution is not science in the way people expect science to be to understood. When someone argues with you about the theory of gravity all you need to do to prove your point is utilize ballistic calculations to drop an artillery shell or two on their heads. That's science as its meant to be understood. All else is wishful thinking. Yes, your faith, your religion.

All you have to do is go to Richard Lenski's laboratory and he can replay a spontaneous genetic mutation before your very eyes. And all you have to do to see that apes and humans evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors is to check their thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, showing identical coefficients of genetic degradation (a measure of how long they've been spliced in), located at identical locations in the 3 billion base pair genomes of humans and great apes.

820 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:49:44pm

re: #815 jaunte

Thanks! I enjoyed working on the project.

Add my appreciation to Hoops' !
Great job!

821 UFO TOFU  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:50:43pm

re: #749 turn

Two locations, Pia Rancho 2 mi S of Hwy 78 in Escandito and on Hwy 56 where they are opening up the commuter lane changes with the movable barrier. Are you in SD?

Try the fish tacos at Rock Bottom in The Gas Lamp.

822 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:53:21pm

re: #800 fish

1) Intelligent Design is a valid scientific viewpoint.

Really? Ok, so bearing in mind that you can't just start rhyming off a bunch of alleged problems with evolution - which wouldn't constitute a scientific theory, just a list of already refuted talking points, what is the theory of Intelligent Design?

You can't answer that because out of the whole ID movement - allegedly bursting with scientists all busily doing science - not one of them has a clue as to what the theory is actually supposed to be.

That's a pretty fatal weakness wouldn't you say?

823 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:55:27pm

re: #822 Jimmah

Really? Ok, so bearing in mind that you can't just start rhyming off a bunch of alleged problems with evolution - which wouldn't constitute a scientific theory, just a list of already refuted talking points, what is the theory of Intelligent Design?

You can't answer that because out of the whole ID movement - allegedly bursting with scientists all busily doing science - not one of them has a clue as to what the theory is actually supposed to be.

That's a pretty fatal weakness wouldn't you say?

Oh come now I can write a book on the Theory of Intelligent Design!

Chapter 1.

Paragragh1.

Beings were created and formed by an intelligent being, most likely a higher power.

The End.

824 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:58:20pm

re: #823 Hengineer

Oh come now I can write a book on the Theory of Intelligent Design!

Chapter 1.

Paragragh1.

Beings were created and formed by an intelligent being, most likely a higher power.

The End.

Want proof? I can make a truck out of legos.

825 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 2:58:48pm

Evolution is an evolving science. New evidence keeps getting dug up every day. The instruments and equipment for analyzing the evidence keep getting more powerful. The knowledge base in microbiology, chemistry, and other sciences keeps advancing as well. Much is known and accepted as scientific facts, but there are still gaps in knowledge of the processes that guided evolution of the species. Some of it we'll be able to explain scientifically but some of it happened by chance and there will be no good scientific explanation.

Evolution is a mixture of the random and the predictable. The predictable, we'll eventually figure out. I don't know know how you figure out the random.

826 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:00:00pm

re: #811 Slumbering Behemoth

It is? Sweet! Maybe you will be the first to answer these few simple questions I've been asking for some time, to no avail:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

It's ironic to think of all the time they spend in vain trying to poke holes in evolution, and all their bullshit talk of 'weaknessess', when their own 'theory' doesn't even bloody exist.

827 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:02:34pm

re: #475 Dragonwolf

No
No
No
Teachers showed me evidence of what scientists had observed. Everything you pointed out can be directly dis-proven through observation.

I consider them priests when they expect me to accept extrapolations that they have made, without observation evidence, without question.

I do understand that not all scientists fight against the questioning. Stephen Hawkins (sp?) for example has a bet going with a colleague in which the only way he can win the bet is for his life's work to be proven wrong.

Science is the foundation we use as our platform for encountering reality. That doesn't mean it has all the answers yet, nor that all the answers it does have are correct.

I find it interesting that most of you don't accept the possibility for error that I point out, when any good scientist would. Perhaps the priests have done too good a job catching you all at a young age.

Evolutionary scientists have been amassing mountains of empirical evidence that supports their contentions for 150 years. To date, not a single shred of evidence contradicting evolution has been found.

Your invocation of mystery doesn't fly. Jut because we don't know everything doesn't mean that we don't know some things, and one of the things we know is that species evolve via random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection. Evolution is as validly, soundly, solidly empirically grounded as is the heliocentric theory of the solar system or the theory of universal gravitation.

828 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:02:42pm

re: #826 Jimmah

It's ironic to think of all the time they spend in vain trying to poke holes in evolution, and all their bullshit talk of 'weaknessess', when their own 'theory' doesn't even bloody exist.

Its funny, Christians believe many things on faith, if it wasn't faith it wouldn't be a religion. Yet they're proposing that its now a science?

If God actually MAKING something before their eyes then that wouldn't be a faith, it'd be something they actually observed and would be a fact.

829 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:03:30pm

re: #775 claspur

I'm an Agnost...been one since I was 13, 14.
What you guys are argueing here, is ludicris.

If you can Prove your arguement one way, or the other, let's hear it, okay?

On this topic, I *feel everyone should be reminded of The Entitlement Clause of The US Constitution...separation of Church and State.
(this site brings this up a lot? Why?)

Myself, I don't care what anyone believes...but,when people, for whatever reason they believe want to cut my head, or anyone else's head off; call me silly, but I want to kill them.....in a most rapid fashion.


what

830 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:06:39pm

re: #827 Salamantis

Evolutionary scientists have been amassing mountains of empirical evidence that supports their contentions for 150 years. To date, not a single shred of evidence contradicting evolution has been found.

Your invocation of mystery doesn't fly. Jut because we don't know everything doesn't mean that we don't know some things, and one of the things we know is that species evolve via random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection. Evolution is as validly, soundly, solidly empirically grounded as is the heliocentric theory of the solar system or the theory of universal gravitation.

Even if evidence doesn't support evolution by mutation, it will support evolution by behavior. In many cases animals evolve behavior patterns either alone or as a group that allows them to survive. Such as different species in Africa at a watering hole together with one or two species alternating as a lookout.

831 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:06:41pm

re: #471 godfrey

DragonWolf is redefining "science," e.g.,

'Scientists' once thought they could transmute other metals into gold!

It's a fun game to play.

We actually CAN transmute (some) other metals into gold now, via nuclear bombardment, but it's prohibitively expensive to do so.

832 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:06:45pm

re: #829 spacejesus What, aren't you familiar with the Entitlement Clause? Ha.

833 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:09:00pm

re: #501 Dustyvet

What the hell was that?

Orson is unWell(es)

834 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:09:25pm

re: #829 spacejesus

what

GMTA

835 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:10:57pm

re: #828 Hengineer

You'd think God might occasionally feel sorry for these buggers and give them a vision explaining evolution. Unfortunately, it seems he doesn't do that sort of thing.

836 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:12:18pm

Welp sorry to go but I need to rest.

Have a good afternoon/evening Lizards!

837 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:14:01pm

re: #834 Basho

GMTA

Guernsey Marine Traders Association? How did they get into this converation?

838 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:14:14pm

re: #521 Dragonwolf

I agree except for one thing. I don't believe a theory is only an idea. You start with an idea, then you experiment. From the observed evidence you build a theory. the more evidence you gain the more you can refine your theory.

I have no problem excluding from schools those ideas for which there is no observed evidence. Unfortunately that would also remove certain fields of science from schools as well. Unless someone has made direct observation of a black hole that I'm not aware of?

I truly am not questioning science so much as my perception of the blind faith so many people place in it.

Does that make sense?

We have not directly observed a black hole, as they tend to be not too reflective (heh), but we have observed their effects. Barring mention of them from the science classroom in spite of such empirical evidence for their existence is like claiming that OJ didn't knife Ron and Nicole because no one who saw it is around, despite the DNA evidence. And the last thing I would wanna be compared to is an OJ juror.

839 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:14:26pm

re: #824 Hengineer

Want proof? I can make a truck out of legos.

I know you're joking, but that's encompasses their entire argument. In fact, you put it much better than the actual stuff they write. Hah!

840 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:16:00pm

re: #834 Basho

GMTA

Just kidding - I had to look it up though.

841 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:16:05pm

re: #837 Jimmah

LMAO! Did a Google search? I didn't know what it meant last week either, until I finally discovered it stood for "great minds think alike." Not that I'm suggesting my intellectual prowess is anywhere near SpaceJesus'.

842 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:19:58pm

re: #841 Basho

Have you seen the spacejesus video?

843 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:20:38pm

re: #836 Hengineer

Have a good one.

844 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:21:13pm

re: #842 Jimmah

There's a spacejesus video?!? =O

845 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:21:50pm

re: #593 Dragonwolf

Last time I checked scientific research they had realized that there are instances where those equations of your's don't quite hold up. (in sub-atomic areas where gravitics and angular momentum don't follow prescribed patterns - and around black holes where pretty much everything gets screwy)

That equations they show me that are fully consistent with all experimental observations I will accept, for now.

To accept what we have now as the final answer would be bad science.

Empirical science tends, in such cases, not so much to disprove previous theories, but instead to subsume them as special cases in a more general conception, as Einsteinian relativity did with Newton. Being incorrect and being incomplete are two different things (otherwise, Godel's theorem wouldn't list them as two different alternatives for recursive axiomatic systems).

846 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:23:01pm

There is indeed.

847 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:25:37pm

re: #846 Jimmah

ROFL! OMG that's hilarious! Hahaha! Thanks for spreading the good news.

848 palarson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:26:14pm

re: #819 Salamantis

All you have to do is go to Richard Lenski's laboratory and he can replay a spontaneous genetic mutation before your very eyes. And all you have to do to see that apes and humans evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors is to check their thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, showing identical coefficients of genetic degradation (a measure of how long they've been spliced in), located at identical locations in the 3 billion base pair genomes of humans and great apes.

With regard to:

1.) The reason Watson and Crick developed their insights into DNA I would remind you that America was discovered because Columbus went looking for India.
2.) That confusing evolution theory with gene theory is odd.
3.) I wouldn't argue with the idea that Richard Lenski can demonstrate an instance where genetic mutation did something useful or neat but would point out that his is likely to be a highly engineered process.
4.) "The existence of thousands of identical artefactual retro viral DNA sequences demonstrating evolution". The subject is new to me so I can't comment on the merits but the odds back an assertion that something's going to be found well wrong with it soon enough. Any complex analysis that has only its own foregone conclusion as its end undoubtedly harbors many core errors.

Cheers,

Phil

849 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:27:22pm

re: #601 A.W.

You miss my point. Even if you have clear and obvious evidence right now that this is stealth creationism, attacking it now is stupid politics. It just makes you look intolerant. If this is a conspiracy, it is playing right into its hands.

I mean hell, it hasn't even been assigned to a committee yet.

Exposing the hidden agendas and ulterior motives of those who would lie in order to subvert the US Constitution for the ultimate purpose of destroying the scientific enterprise, erecting a dogmatic temple in its place, and establishing an American theocracy that replaces our Constitution with the Bible is bad politics? Were well, then; in that case, I am unswervingly committed to bad politics like that for the balance of my days.

850 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:30:13pm

Gerald Schroeder claims that there is actually harmony between modern science and the Bible. Is that a credible idea here at lgf?

851 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:30:17pm

re: #848 palarson

Hey, pretty good that time! It almost sounded scientific.

852 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:30:32pm

re: #847 Basho

Heh! I don't know if our space jesus was physically involved in this, or if it was just the work of one blessed to be inspired by him, but it's pretty funny.

853 palarson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:31:40pm

re: #851 Charles

Hey, pretty good that time! It almost sounded scientific.

Sarcasm?

854 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:33:02pm

re: #850 Pabloanno

Gerald Schroeder claims that there is actually harmony between modern science and the Bible. Is that a credible idea here at lgf?

Sure.

855 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:34:19pm

re: #853 palarson

Sarcasm?

What was your first clue?

856 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:36:18pm

re: #854 Basho

Sure.

Cool.

857 palarson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:38:31pm

re: #855 Charles

What was your first clue?

That you said it.

Phil

858 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:38:32pm

re: #848 palarson

With regard to:

1.) The reason Watson and Crick developed their insights into DNA I would remind you that America was discovered because Columbus went looking for India.

Which has exactly what to do with Darwin and Mendel being Watson & Crick's intellectual impetus? They discovered precisely what they were looking for, and they were looking for it due to the influence of Darwin's and Mendel's ideas.

2.) That confusing evolution theory with gene theory is odd.

WTF? Genes are the physical substrate by means of which traits are passed between generations, and their mutation, combined with a differentially selecting environment, is what evolution IS.

3.) I wouldn't argue with the idea that Richard Lenski can demonstrate an instance where genetic mutation did something useful or neat but would point out that his is likely to be a highly engineered process.

Nope. He established a dozen different lots of e. coli, fed them, watched them cycle through tens of thousands of generations, and froze some of them from each lot every several generations for purposes of repetition. The mutation in question spontaneously occurred in only one of these twelve lots.

4.) "The existence of thousands of identical artifactual retro viral DNA sequences demonstrating evolution". The subject is new to me so I can't comment on the merits but the odds back an assertion that something's going to be found well wrong with it soon enough. Any complex analysis that has only its own foregone conclusion as its end undoubtedly harbors many core errors.
Cheers,

Phil

Umm...they didn't go LOOKING for these artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, they just FOUND them. And they aren't going anywhere; they constitute fully 8% of the human genome, and can be checked and re-checked at will.

And I find it exceedingly hard to believe that the subject is new to you, since it has been posted and commented upon eleventy-twelve times onlist before in threads in which you have participated, and even been made the topic of its own thread, but if you really ARE that oblivious, here's the link, yet again:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

859 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:38:36pm
Karma: -89

Pabloanno

(Logged in)
Registered since: Feb 16, 2009 at 9:39 am
No. of comments posted: 40
No. of links posted: 0

Just think, pabloanno, this morning you had positive karma. What happened?

And how's the search for my horrible bigotry and hate for all religious believers going? Ready to apologise?

860 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:40:44pm

re: #859 Jimmah

I'm moving on. You should too. It's not me. It's you.

861 yochanan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:42:58pm

the 'zero' goes to canukastan and brings home a piece of tail

[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

862 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:43:44pm

re: #858 Salamantis


And I find it exceedingly hard to believe that the subject is new to you, since it has been posted and commented upon eleventy-twelve times onlist before in threads in which you have participated, and even been made the topic of its own thread, but if you really ARE that oblivious, here's the link, yet again:

You don't expect them to actually read this science stuff as well as claiming it's wrong, now?

863 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:45:17pm

re: #630 Dragonwolf

No, but the results of the use of electronic signals has been experimentally observed many times. I never said that lack of observation dis-proves anything. It was only to point out that there are things in science we 'take on faith' not because we've seen the actual process, but because we've seen the results.

Evolution ain't one of them. Richard Lenski has observed the actual process in his laboratory, and can replay it at will. And the empirical evidence for evolutionary theory is overwhelming. Not to mention the fact that the empirical evidence against it is nonexistent.

864 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:45:37pm

re: #860 Pabloanno

I'm moving on. You should too. It's not me. It's you.

Since you must by now be aware that your ridiculous claims are false, and you cannot find any evidence to support them, what's stopping you taking them back? Once you've done that, we can move on.

865 redc1c4  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:49:24pm

re: #133 Dustyvet

Tribute to the battle of Iwo Jima

Tribute to all the Marines and Navy Corpsmen that served on Iwo Jima

19 February 1945-26 March 1945


[Video]

my FiL was there, on the "Showboat" BB-55.

Bravo Zulu Syd!

866 palarson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:49:50pm

re: #858 Salamantis

That genes are passed from one generation to the next with interesting consequences I don't doubt. That more complex and useful combinations can spontaneously evolve without the addition of some sort of outside engineering I doubt completely. That's the magic hat, black box, or the "elephant in the room" I'm talking about. "e. coli mutants" ~ My money says they ain't doing nothing particularly new or useful and if they are then I predict that as a new species they aren't long for this world.

I'll put the New Yorker magazine article in my things to do list. But I'd really rather read the Discovery Institute's review first.

Phil

867 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:50:42pm

re: #864 Jimmah


I will admit nothing of the sort. My point was made exceedingly well by myself and it was made even better by your continued infantile reaction. Anyhow, really now, we are officially broken up.

868 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:51:17pm

re: #866 palarson

I'll put the New Yorker magazine article in my things to do list. But I'd really rather read the Discovery Institute's review first.

That's pretty darned obvious, but thank you for clarifying where you get your stunning array of scientific-sounding buzzwords.

869 palarson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:53:17pm

Christ is God.

870 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:54:00pm

re: #658 Dragonwolf

If you can show me the 'observations and empirical evidence' of the temperature at the core of the sun, I will withdraw my statement.

Mathmatics is still evolving. While it is very good, it is not yet the final answer.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Mathematics isn't the SPECIFIC answer for anything; it is, however, a GENERAL method that can be applied to give answers for anything quantifiable that can be plugged into its variables.

871 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 3:58:32pm

Hi Lizards,

I’ve been observing the DI team (I still wonder if they just do it for kicks, or get paid) and I think I have the playbook worked out:

1. Pump-action fake.
"This is boring / unimportant. / What is this? / Let's talk about Islam!"
Counterplay: Nice try buster. Go get your own blog.

2. The fake handoff.
"Stop bashing Christians / conservatives!"
Counterplay: Millions of conservative Christians around the world, including the Pope, accept the facts of evolution. Which cult are you in?

3. The screen.
"You cannot prove life sprang from nothing. / They haven't recreated life in a lab!"
Counterplay: Wrong argument (again and again). You are talking about biogenesis. The facts of evolution do not explain how life came into existence in the beginning, so scientists do not even try to explain it (though some do have atheist theories). This is exactly why Christians accept the facts of evolution as well as God being the creator.

4. The run and shoot.
"Irreducible complexity! / Cambrian Explosion! / Transitional forms! / Other canard!"
Counterplay: Easily blitzed (they are all directly quoted from Deception Institute websites), and Charles / Sal / Sharmuta have the links where they have been destroyed. The purpose here is not to convince any lizards (far too thorough!), but just to repeat the lies often enough perhaps to sow some confusion in occasional, less-well-informed readers. It can be a lengthy process as they ignore each refutation and just leap into the next lie, with getting the last word in as the objective, so we can just wait for Sal.

5. The retreat.
"Ok, adaptation occurs but not speciation!"
Counterplay: Stop laughing first, then ask where they learnt about species. This stance involves an imaginary invisible line where evolution suddenly halts. The finches are enough refutation, but now we can reproduce speciation, and watch it in real time, with e-coli. Ask the creationist: What would you call a fish? A lizard with gills, or a fish?

6. The Hail Mary Bomb.
"Jesus said blah blah blah..."
Counterplay: Dogmatic literalism is the easiest to counter: "Jesus said, 'With God, all things are possible.'"

7. The punt.
"You are evil / agree with Hitler if you believe in evolution."
Counterplay: GAZE

8. The self-destruct.
"Well I can't see any good evidence for evolution, so you must all be crazy and believe in it like a religion!" (No further argument offered)
Counterplay: Go on, you believe the Flintstones is real, right? (You can have fun at this stage)

9. The white flag.
"I'm not a creationist."
Counterplay: Well, you must be happy now that we have pointed out how you say and believe exactly the same lies, so you can accept the facts of evolution now.

10. The utter surrender.
"Well, I have to go take the giraffe for a walk now (etc)."
Counterplay: You win. Reset for the next evolution thread.


BiJ

872 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:00:55pm

re: #871 Brit in Japan

Excellent. But I think you forgot one:

re: #869 palarson

Christ is God.

873 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:02:13pm

re: #867 Pabloanno

I will admit nothing of the sort. My point was made exceedingly well by myself and it was made even better by your continued infantile reaction.

Your point was not made at all. When you make claims and then fail to back them up, you lose, funnily enough.

Anyhow, really now, we are officially broken up.

Keeping away from me for the rest of your hopefully not too long stay here would probably be a good idea.

874 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:02:26pm

re: #866 palarson

That genes are passed from one generation to the next with interesting consequences I don't doubt. That more complex and useful combinations can spontaneously evolve without the addition of some sort of outside engineering I doubt completely.That's the magic hat, black box, or the "elephant in the room" I'm talking about.

Umm...when artifactual retroviral sequences, which now constitute 8% of the human genome, are spliced into it, they add both information and complexity. They're an outside source, just like the rest of the environment. The organism is no more a closed system than is the sun-shined biosphere. So your veiled appeal to the theory of entropy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics fails.

"e. coli mutants" ~ My money says they ain't doing nothing particularly new or useful and if they are then I predict that as a new species they aren't long for this world.

They can do what other e. coli cannot; metabolize citric acid. And they have evolved a radically different cell covering in order to facilitate this. It is as if humans were suddenly born with blue scaly skin who could drink arsenic and piss strychnine while running a maraton on the energy they derived from it.

I'll put the New Yorker magazine article in my things to do list. But I'd really rather read the Discovery Institute's review first.

Phil

Yeah; after all, you can't evaluate it on your own; you have to be told by anti-science religious dogmatists what you're supposed to think about it. And they'll feed you distortions and lies, and you'll lap them up, because they'll confirm your prejudices.

875 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:04:59pm

re: #854 Basho

Basho, You posted a comment a while back that was relevant to an earlier link I made. You might find it interesting.

Intelligent Scientists

876 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:06:03pm

re: #871 Brit in Japan

Nice work. There's been a new one added in recent weeks:

"Yes, ok it's nonsense but let them teach it in the classrooms. That's the best way to defeat them"

877 kahall  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:06:12pm

re: #50 Charles

Evolutionary science has been subjected to analysis and review for 150 years, and in all that time not a single challenge has resulted in falsifying the theory. Instead, it's only gotten stronger, and now informs every aspect of modern biology, leading to scientific and medical breakthroughs.

"Analysis, criticism, and review" does not mean teaching children religiously based pseudo-science.

Can I send that to my House Rep. here is Missouri?

878 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:07:45pm

re: #876 Jimmah

Nice work. There's been a new one added in recent weeks:

"Yes, ok it's nonsense but let them teach it in the classrooms. That's the best way to defeat them"

"Fighting against creationists only makes them stronger."

879 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:08:39pm

Playbook applied:

That genes are passed from one generation to the next with interesting consequences I don't doubt. That more complex and useful combinations can spontaneously evolve without the addition of some sort of outside engineering I doubt completely. That's the magic hat, black box, or the "elephant in the room" I'm talking about.

5. The retreat.
“Ok, adaptation occurs but not speciation!”

"e. coli mutants" ~ My money says they ain't doing nothing particularly new or useful and if they are then I predict that as a new species they aren't long for this world.

5. What would you call a fish? A lizard with lungs or a fish?


BiJ

880 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:10:38pm

re: #872 Charles

Excellent. But I think you forgot one:

re: #869 palarson

Haaa! Unclassifiable, but looks like a 6. (Hail Mary Bomb), except he fumbled it.

BiJ

881 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:12:40pm

re: #878 Charles

"Fighting against creationists only makes them stronger."

As with the jihadis, an eerily familiar kind of argument proposed by those who want to see you lose. Real 'wormtongue' stuff.

882 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:13:11pm

re: #710 fish

I would just like to take a moment to point out that there is a difference between Young Earth Creationism and the Theory of Intelligent Design.

YEC is a faith based psuedo science that has a much credibility as the Flat earth society.

The Theory of Intelligent Design is one means of explaining what might have caused the Big Bang, Why do things which should be random seem to follow patterns (ie the number phi appearing in many species of plants) as well as others. Is everything random or is there an Intellegence at work? This only crosses over into the realm of religion when one tries to define the intelligence, label it, and claim to know its purpose.

P.S. The bill Charles mentioned at the top of the thread is badly written and should be defeated, even though I generally support "Acedemic Freedom" bills, I cannot support this one.

Actually, the term ID was invented by the Disco Institute in order to corcumvent judicial rulings prohibiting the teaching of creationism in public high school science class. It is just a come-hither shade of PR propaganda pseudoscience lipstick applied to the wrinkled snout of a very ancient dogmatic religion pig. And Judge Jones clearly saw and showed the sow beneath its semantic cosmetics in his Dover decision.

883 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:13:46pm

I realize that this thread has become the usual ID'ers hanging on, but I thought of something while I was out driving my kids around hither and thither and yon, which I just had to say.

Elementary-aged kids (and they are specifically mentioned) should not be taught the theory of evolution because they probably won't understand DNA, etc. so it would be above their heads. Maybe the sixth graders. Maybe, but only if they are taught about atoms, molecules, DNA, cells, etc. first.

I see no reason for the kids to be involved in this bill, and I really, really, really don't think anyone should be teaching very young children religion in a state classroom. Basic ethics, sure, like Don't steal, Don't lie, and Don't put bugs down her shirt, please.

I consider their inclusion a political thing.

My personal suggestions for science topics for elementary-aged kids, based on my own experience:

Geology (what 8 year-old boy doesn't have a rock collection?)
Astronomy
Simple machines (they can experiment with catapults all day long--trust me.)
Basic chemistry (states of matter, basic reactions, safety, density, etc.--oh wait, and don't forget baking soda and vinegar)
Botany (bugs and plants)
magnetism/basic electronics (magnetism, with compasses and so on, can yield a lot of fun.)
weather--you can see it.

884 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:13:52pm

re: #873 Jimmah

For anyone who cares or is following this. And not really in reply to Jimmah cause I'm done talking to him.

Jimmah is being disingenuous.

Jimmah used American Taliban unapologetically and even claimed it was a useful epithet to describe the religious right. Jimmah, himself claimed that. Not even me or anyone else. Jimmah following me around and demanding proof of something that I claimed he said when he repeatedly say it is disingenuous, at best. Also, I wonder why I'm the one of the many people who took Jimma to task on that whom he's asking for proof from? Is it because I'm new and shouldn't dare to disagree with him? or point out his stating an absurdity as fact?

If you hadn't lost this round you wouldn't be hoping I'd be banned. You'd be hoping I stick around for you to kick some more, you know for fun.

885 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:14:16pm

re: #783 HoosierHoops

I also wish to apologize. And to thank you for forcing me to rethink how to state my original thesis.

Everyone was defending science against what they viewed as my slight against it by comparing it to religion. That is not what I intended. I don't feel they are equal. Religion doesn't explain the workings of the universe in a comprehensible and repeatable way. Science does. That was never my issue.

Having grown up in a religious family and going on to study theology, I've spoken to many theologians who aren't sure, but still present the 'We have the way' doctrine to the public. So when I come across posts where those from the scientific side say, 'These are the facts' I get twitchy. That is where the comparison is for me. The presentation to the laity.

I don't doubt for a moment that scientists are within a few degrees when they predict the temp at the core of the sun. It's when that rational, reasonable application of scientific principle is presented in a way that makes it sound like a hard proven fact that I have a problem. i.e. a textbook in a college level (maybe even high school, though younger than that there are other issues involved) states that the core temp of the sun is...instead of saying 'based on all observable data and all accepted scientific knowledge, the temperature at the core of the sun would have to be...

Does that make more sense?
'

886 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:15:52pm

re: #711 RC51

I'm new, but would someone be so kind as to explain the fixation on creationism around here? I'm from Missouri and this isn't getting one drop of press coverage. It'll probably die in committee and was likely never written to pass anyway.

My kid's k-6 grade school spends about 2-4 hours on evolution in 6 years of schooling. It isn't worth getting work up over in my opinion.

If the coerced and unconstitutional subversion of the public high school science education of America's children by dogmatic theocratic bigots isn't worth getting worked up over, then what the hell is?

887 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:24:44pm

re: #886 Salamantis

If the coerced and unconstitutional subversion of the public high school science education of America's children by dogmatic theocratic bigots isn't worth getting worked up over, then what the hell is?

How about the mortgaging of our nation's future via enormous spending bills of dubious utility?

You know I agree with you though. As strongly as I thought efforts to delete "One Nation, Under God" from the pledge was a ridiculous and divisive notion, I feel that this attempt to push religion INTO the classroom is a ridiculous and dangerous notion.

888 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:30:28pm

re: #747 A.W.

Charles

Look at what Ben Stien and all them are doing right now. They are saying "you are intolerant."

And then they put out a bill saying, we are going to teach people to question.

If you oppose that, you play into that narrative. Its that simple. Don't make the issue whether you are tolerant or not. Say, "my theory can stand up to questioning" and then do it.

You know, it was not just Darwin's birthday recently, but Lincoln's too. And what Lincoln and other republicans did to hurt slavery is they partially changed the subject. They held up the bodies of men like Elijah Lovejoy, who died defending his press from an antiabolitionist mob. They passed states-rights measures designed at thwarting slavery. They asked whether the South would allow a "Northern Man with Northern Principles" to become president. They made the intolerance and outright hypocrisy of the slaveholders a serious issue and they won that debate. They elected Lincoln in 1860, they got a civil war, they won it and then shoved freedom down the south's throat (and i say that with approval).

That tactic was used for good by Lincoln et al., but it could be used by others for bad goals, such as the promotion of faith in the guise of science.

If someone says "they have questions" about evolution, it is never the right answer to shout "creationist!" The right answer is to hear the question and answer it. Yes, even if they question is fed to them by people whose motives you question.

So when you oppose a bill that merely calls on people to question, yes, you look intolerant, and you allow them to change the subject to whether or not you are intolerant. Its a losing strategy.

Don't play into their trap.

This is the same damn 'teach the controversy' claptrap that we have heard a thouand times before. And what will creationists do? Why they'll program a fleet of zombic memebot kids with their latest batch of lies and distortions and launch them at every high school science teacher in the state, who'll have to deal with all of this crapola every single period of every day, and never get any genuine science taught. And that's their objective; to smother the teaching of authentic empirical science under the suffocating weight of hordes of cynical bs 'questions' and 'objections'...

[Link: ncseweb.org...]

[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

See what such sophistric misrepresentation and obfuscation can do even to the contention that the earth is spherical?

[Link: www.teachthemscience.org...]

This is a recipe for pedagogical disaster.

889 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:34:41pm

re: #884 Pabloanno

To correct pabloannos falsehoods - link to thread concerned: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

For anyone who cares or is following this. And not really in reply to Jimmah cause I'm done talking to him.Jimmah used American Taliban unapologetically and even claimed it was a useful epithet to describe the religious right.

Oh how awful. To be more accurate, I was actually a lot more specific than just 'religious right' I was talking about the extreme religious right, the ones who believe that America was to blame for 9/11 - namely, Falwell, Robertson, The Phelps family. If you want to identify with that lot and thereby feel insulted, that's your problem.

Jimmah, himself claimed that. Not even me or anyone else. Jimmah following me around and demanding proof of something that I claimed he said when he repeatedly say it is disingenuous, at best.

No you claimed that I had a pattern of hatred shown towards all religious people in my posts. You were asked to prove that claim by showing the posts where this is evident, you have been completely unable to do so. Your pathetic attempt to twist the issue here just shows once again how disingenuous you are.

Also, I wonder why I'm the one of the many people who took Jimma to task on that whom he's asking for proof from?

What utter rubbish. Only a couple of other people as I remember had a disagreement with me over that post, one of those was merely because he hadn't noticed the sarc tag - an issue that was quickly clarified. Only one person came at me with a bunch of personal abuse and lies and that was you.

If you hadn't lost this round you wouldn't be hoping I'd be banned. You'd be hoping I stick around for you to kick some more, you know for fun.

You are delusional. I don't enjoy kicking schmucks like you around, it's more of a duty thing.

890 Spiny Norman  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:42:43pm

re: #871 Brit in Japan

That was both brilliant and hilarious!

And hilariously brilliant!

;^)

891 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:43:48pm

re: #885 Dragonwolf

Dragonwolf,

I just so happened to come back in, and skim down-thread, before closing the window. I'm glad I saw this post of yours.

We had a disagreement up-thread. I said some harsh things. I apologize.

I may not agree with you, and I may think you over-react, but hell, I over-react too.

You are honest. You have my respect.

pBMb

892 Spiny Norman  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:45:07pm

BTW,

I guess I haven't been banned for discussing these ID/DI threads at Patterico's, like some numbskull going by the nic "ML" said I surely would be...

;^)

893 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:45:15pm

Here is my latest troll hammer. I am happy with it. I want to thank all of those who gave me advice on tactics and form. Please give feed back on this.

There are two parts.

Some frequently raised objections by Creationists:
Evolution is only a theory it is not a fact…
Theory in science does not mean what you think it means. A theory is not just something that people might believe is true. A theory is a rigorously tested, by multiple observers, falsifiable and predictive model of the physical world. A theory is consistent with all known observations. In the case of evolution, which has been around for close to 150 years, we are now looking at millions of man years of observation which is consistent with the theory and its predictions. In short, a theory is something proven to be fact beyond the standards of any court of law. Outside of theorems, which are mathematical statements proven to always be true, scientific theories are the most rigorously true statements made by man.

The Universe is only around 6000 years old…
Forget evolution for a moment and look at astronomy. Look up at the night sky. If you see something which is farther than 6000 light years away, that light took over 6000 years to get here. This is inescapable. If Paris is a 10 hour flight away and you show up in Paris, you had to leave at least 10 hours ago. The vast majority of what we see out there is thousands, millions and even billions of light years away.

Forget evolution for a moment and look at Physics. Consider nuclear decays. These are little atomic clocks. We can date rocks on the Earth to over 4,000,000,000 years old. If someone tells you not to believe that we know how to calculate these rates, then how is it we know how to build nuclear reactors and atomic bombs and those things work?

Forget evolution for a moment and look at geology. Rivers erode the Earth. The Earth has strata that take years to form. Mountains rise and decay. When we look at things like the Grand Canyon or Continental drift, we know that the Earth is much older than 6000 years old. It took a long time for the continents to get into their present shape.

Now look at Evolution, if you want to say the Earth is young, you are not just facing evolution but every branch of science. If you argue that God made the Earth already old, that means you believe He set up the whole visible universe and all of those clocks to lie to us. It is part of my faith that He always tells the truth. Also, if He is willing to deceive on a universal scale, how do you know that He did not also deceive in the words of scripture? Perhaps adultery really is the way to go, but He lied there too? NO, it is much better to believe He tells the truth and does not deceive.

I can not accept randomness. God runs the world…
The definition of random is a future event that can not be predicted. God already knows the future, so by definition, no event is random to him. You may not know the outcome of a coin toss, it is random to you, but if you are a believer then you believe that He does know the outcome. It was not random to Him. There is no contradiction. The randomness that we perceive does not inhibit you from believing that God runs the world anyway.

Further, the essence of quantum mechanics is inherent randomness. It is built into the very framework of the theory, and proof that we got that theory right is that you are reading these words on a transistor using computer. Transistors were invented by understand QM and they rely on it for their functioning. Is quantum theory also heresy? If it is wrong, how are you reading this?

Finally, Evolution is not completely random. Natural selection removes random things that don’t work.

894 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:46:11pm

re: #800 fish

I want to be very clear about this.

I agree with most of the posters here on the following points:

1) YEC is a religion and supported in no means by science.
2) The "Acedemic Freedom" bills are being used in an attempt to get religion into the classroom.
3) the Theory of Inteligent Design has been taken over by YEC and is often used to promote a religious veiwpoint.

Points where I disagree with many of you:

1) Intelligent Design is a valid scientific viewpoint.

Please show me some valid science in ID. And show Daniel Dennet some, too:
Show Me the Science
By DANIEL C. DENNETT
[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

The focus on intelligent design has, paradoxically, obscured something else: genuine scientific controversies about evolution that abound. In just about every field there are challenges to one established theory or another. The legitimate way to stir up such a storm is to come up with an alternative theory that makes a prediction that is crisply denied by the reigning theory - but that turns out to be true, or that explains something that has been baffling defenders of the status quo, or that unifies two distant theories at the cost of some element of the currently accepted view.

To date, the proponents of intelligent design have not produced anything like that. No experiments with results that challenge any mainstream biological understanding. No observations from the fossil record or genomics or biogeography or comparative anatomy that undermine standard evolutionary thinking.

Instead, the proponents of intelligent design use a ploy that works something like this. First you misuse or misdescribe some scientist's work. Then you get an angry rebuttal. Then, instead of dealing forthrightly with the charges leveled, you cite the rebuttal as evidence that there is a "controversy" to teach.

Note that the trick is content-free. You can use it on any topic. "Smith's work in geology supports my argument that the earth is flat," you say, misrepresenting Smith's work. When Smith responds with a denunciation of your misuse of her work, you respond, saying something like: "See what a controversy we have here? Professor Smith and I are locked in a titanic scientific debate. We should teach the controversy in the classrooms." And here is the delicious part: you can often exploit the very technicality of the issues to your own advantage, counting on most of us to miss the point in all the difficult details.

William Dembski, one of the most vocal supporters of intelligent design, notes that he provoked Thomas Schneider, a biologist, into a response that Dr. Dembski characterizes as "some hair-splitting that could only look ridiculous to outsider observers." What looks to scientists - and is - a knockout objection by Dr. Schneider is portrayed to most everyone else as ridiculous hair splitting.

In short, no science. Indeed, no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon. This might seem surprising to people who think that intelligent design competes directly with the hypothesis of non-intelligent design by natural selection. But saying, as intelligent design proponents do, "You haven't explained everything yet," is not a competing hypothesis. Evolutionary biology certainly hasn't explained everything that perplexes biologists. But intelligent design hasn't yet tried to explain anything.

2) The "Acedemic Freedom" bills (If Properly written) can ensure scientific process is taught in our schools.

It can do nothing but inhibit the teaching of authentic science, by allowing classes to be relentlessly bombarded with creationist talking points.

895 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:46:40pm

Part Two:

I have the right to set standards for what my children hear in school….
Yes you do… provided that you do not violate the establishment clause of the Constitution and force my kids to listen to your dogma.

Intelligent Design is a competing theory…
Horse Hockey! You can not do an experiment on God. The notion is not testable or falsifiable. It makes no predictions. It explains nothing. By definition it is not a theory and it can never be one. It is not science, it is a religious statement. By definition, faith is belief in those things which can not be proven. ID can not be proven. By definition it is an article of faith. As such it has no place in a science class except perhaps as an example of what science isn’t.

Irreducible complexity is proof of ID…
Horse Hockey again! Just on the basis of logic without getting into the science, saying “I have no clue how it got that way” is not proof of God or proof of anything. I don’t know simply means I don’t know.
As far as the science goes, look into the actual scientific journals and literature. You will find that we do have transition cases of very complicated systems where the individual parts change function in different contexts as the complexity is reduced.

There is a great scientific conspiracy to punish and exclude brave ID free thinking scientists…
ID is not science. They are no more “punished” than a mathematician would be if he kept swearing 2+2=17 or a preacher would be if he preached that Jesus was a short obese woman from Canada who promoted heroin use amongst teens.

Evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics…
Right, like all of those scientists never studied thermodynamics, just like you didn’t. The second law states that entropy always increases in a closed system. The Earth gets its energy from the sun. The Earth is not a closed system.

896 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:48:00pm

re: #889 Jimmah

I will admit one thing. I was very impressed with your ability to use the word 'epithet' correctly.

Using the term American Taliban is gross and foolish. I've read this blog for awhile and it seems to me not too long ago that type of comparison (not to mention your comparison of creationists to jihadis in this thread) used to be roundly discouraged here as I recall.

I've been told that you enjoy a status here that allows you to break the rules. Well, good for you. Have fun.

897 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:48:16pm

re: #893 LudwigVanQuixote

DAMN, I'm glad I happened to be here when you posted these!
Thanks. I'm going to "favorite" them.

/was JUST about to close the window

898 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:49:46pm

re: #893 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote

If yours is a troll hammer, Brit in Japan's must be a troll scalpel.

899 cronus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:50:13pm

re: #747 A.W.

The very act of teaching science is teaching kids how to question. Questions and debate drive science. Introducing legislation to force debate and discussion in science is like enacting a law to mandating the use of addition in mathematics. You only need such legislation if it is a stalking horse for the ID agenda. As the text of the bill clearly demonstrates.

900 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:51:43pm

re: #897 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN, I'm glad I happened to be here when you posted these!
Thanks. I'm going to "favorite" them.

/was JUST about to close the window

thanks!

901 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:52:01pm

re: #898 wrenchwench

re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote

If yours is a troll hammer, Brit in Japan's must be a troll scalpel.

Thanks

902 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:53:27pm

NOBODY TEACHES CHEMICAL EVOLUTION

903 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 4:54:12pm

re: #885 Dragonwolf

i.e. a textbook in a college level (maybe even high school, though younger than that there are other issues involved) states that the core temp of the sun is...instead of saying 'based on all observable data and all accepted scientific knowledge, the temperature at the core of the sun would have to be...

Does that make more sense?
'

Yeah, it does, and I thank you for it, and bestow upon thee a ding up.

It's not helpful to see science textbooks with bare facts and no explanation; we may as well be reading the appendix of Lord of the Rings. And if you do see textbooks like that, complain.

It should be possible to run a sidebar in a book, or website, which explains how to run an experiment which can induce a magnetic field from a rotating ball of magnetic iron. I do recall experiments in HS physics which induced electric currents by turning a magnet. The parts shouldn't be that expensive to buy, and the math shouldn't be that hard to follow.

904 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:02:18pm

re: #903 Zimriel

Yeah, it does, and I thank you for it, and bestow upon thee a ding up.

It's not helpful to see science textbooks with bare facts and no explanation; we may as well be reading the appendix of Lord of the Rings. And if you do see textbooks like that, complain.

It should be possible to run a sidebar in a book, or website, which explains how to run an experiment which can induce a magnetic field from a rotating ball of magnetic iron. I do recall experiments in HS physics which induced electric currents by turning a magnet. The parts shouldn't be that expensive to buy, and the math shouldn't be that hard to follow.

I agree with everything save the easy to do and the math would be simple. Eddie currents in the sphere would be very complex to model.

905 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:04:22pm

re: #894 Salamantis

It can do nothing but inhibit the teaching of authentic science, by allowing classes to be relentlessly bombarded with creationist talking points.

Well done Sal... you have been dinged up!

906 cronus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:04:55pm

re: #869 palarson

Amen. I imagine there are many believers in this thread given that most mainstream Christian denominations have incorporated evolution into their world view. Only fundamentalists (but interestingly not all of them) continue pushing this. I can understand why IDers seem to flounder so much when they attempt objective scientific debate. Likely because they haven't even managed to win their own theological debate.

907 Mr Secul  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:05:21pm

re: #404 No, that's: Not Found.

908 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:07:06pm

“teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of theories of biological and chemical evolution.”

Funny but I thought understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing were the basis of science.

What is the problem with this? Are certain theories closed off to further analysis?

You sound like Al Gore when he says there is no debate to be had on Global Warming.

909 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:07:53pm

Pretty good, Ludwig!

910 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:08:22pm

re: #900 LudwigVanQuixote

I just posted the links to your troll hammer on the next two threads.

I'm outta here for the night.

911 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:10:31pm

re: #909 Salamantis

Pretty good, Ludwig!

I really want to know what Charles thinks. Lots of us keep typing the same things over and over in these threads.

I also wanted to thank you for all of your advice on it. I tried academic and I tried a more faith based intellectual argument, but you were right about doing it in this way.

912 pingjockey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:10:36pm

re: #908 Klaatu

Creation is not a theory, it is faith. End of discussion. No science involved.

913 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:10:53pm

re: #910 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wow thanks!

914 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:11:05pm

re: #908 Klaatu

“teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of theories of biological and chemical evolution.”

Funny but I thought understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing were the basis of science.

What is the problem with this? Are certain theories closed off to further analysis?

You sound like Al Gore when he says there is no debate to be had on Global Warming.

Read my #894 and cronus' # 899.

915 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:11:41pm

re: #896 Pabloanno

What a non-response to being caught lying repeatedly that was.

Using the term 'American Taliban' against those who, like the Taliban, attribute acts of terror to the avenging hand of God, and blame America in all it's modernity and decadence for 9/11 is justified. It's not intended to suggest an exact equivalence to the actual Taliban, it's intended to draw attention to what they have in common. As I said on the other thread, these people should be shamed, not protected.

I've been told that you enjoy a status here that allows you to break the rules.

Er...no....but what rules do you think I have broken?

916 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:12:03pm

re: #912 pingjockey

Does the bill mention creation? That is not evident by what was posted here.

917 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:12:13pm

re: #908 Klaatu


Funny but I thought understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing were the basis of science.

Here's a helpful link about the real process of science. You'll find the word 'data' used quite often. Scientists use 'data.'
[Link: undsci.berkeley.edu...]

918 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:13:42pm

re: #871 Brit in Japan

Hi Lizards,

I’ve been observing the DI team (I still wonder if they just do it for kicks, or get paid) and I think I have the playbook worked out:

1. Pump-action fake.
"This is boring / unimportant. / What is this? / Let's talk about Islam!"
Counterplay: Nice try buster. Go get your own blog.

2. The fake handoff.
"Stop bashing Christians / conservatives!"
Counterplay: Millions of conservative Christians around the world, including the Pope, accept the facts of evolution. Which cult are you in?

3. The screen.
"You cannot prove life sprang from nothing. / They haven't recreated life in a lab!"
Counterplay: Wrong argument (again and again). You are talking about biogenesis. The facts of evolution do not explain how life came into existence in the beginning, so scientists do not even try to explain it (though some do have atheist theories). This is exactly why Christians accept the facts of evolution as well as God being the creator.

4. The run and shoot.
"Irreducible complexity! / Cambrian Explosion! / Transitional forms! / Other canard!"
Counterplay: Easily blitzed (they are all directly quoted from Deception Institute websites), and Charles / Sal / Sharmuta have the links where they have been destroyed. The purpose here is not to convince any lizards (far too thorough!), but just to repeat the lies often enough perhaps to sow some confusion in occasional, less-well-informed readers. It can be a lengthy process as they ignore each refutation and just leap into the next lie, with getting the last word in as the objective, so we can just wait for Sal.

5. The retreat.
"Ok, adaptation occurs but not speciation!"
Counterplay: Stop laughing first, then ask where they learnt about species. This stance involves an imaginary invisible line where evolution suddenly halts. The finches are enough refutation, but now we can reproduce speciation, and watch it in real time, with e-coli. Ask the creationist: What would you call a fish? A lizard with gills, or a fish?

6. The Hail Mary Bomb.
"Jesus said blah blah blah..."
Counterplay: Dogmatic literalism is the easiest to counter: "Jesus said, 'With God, all things are possible.'"

7. The punt.
"You are evil / agree with Hitler if you believe in evolution."
Counterplay: GAZE

8. The self-destruct.
"Well I can't see any good evidence for evolution, so you must all be crazy and believe in it like a religion!" (No further argument offered)
Counterplay: Go on, you believe the Flintstones is real, right? (You can have fun at this stage)

9. The white flag.
"I'm not a creationist."
Counterplay: Well, you must be happy now that we have pointed out how you say and believe exactly the same lies, so you can accept the facts of evolution now.

10. The utter surrender.
"Well, I have to go take the giraffe for a walk now (etc)."
Counterplay: You win. Reset for the next evolution thread.

BiJ

Brilliant!

919 pingjockey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:14:07pm

re: #916 Klaatu
Is there another theory of evolution that I'm not aware of?

920 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:14:15pm

re: #875 Naso Tang

You might find it interesting.

Intelligent Scientists

Excellent link. Thank you very much!

921 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:15:54pm

re: #908 Klaatu

“teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of theories of biological and chemical evolution.”

Funny but I thought understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing were the basis of science.

What is the problem with this? Are certain theories closed off to further analysis?

You sound like Al Gore when he says there is no debate to be had on Global Warming.

You've been registered almost a year, yet only now do you make your first post without apparently having read anything previously on the subject.

The simple response to you is that apparently you would also advocate the teaching of astrology next to astronomy, YEC next to all science, alchemy next to chemistry and so on.

At what point would you suggest not teaching what is known to be wrong to children who don't know the difference?

922 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:15:54pm

re: #911 LudwigVanQuixote

I really want to know what Charles thinks. Lots of us keep typing the same things over and over in these threads.

I also wanted to thank you for all of your advice on it. I tried academic and I tried a more faith based intellectual argument, but you were right about doing it in this way.

I'm glad that my list of arguments and refuting links was of aome assistance to you.

923 pingjockey  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:16:08pm

Going walkabout upthread.

924 Mr Secul  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:16:50pm

re: #470 Honorary Yooper

Careful there. There's a fair number of whackjobs out there who think the enitre set of moon landings was staged. They'll be the next group of toofers to show up next.

Why aren't all the shadows pointing in the same direction?

Why are the same hills in the background when we know that the shots were taken miles apart?

Why are there no stars in the sky?

/

925 abolitionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:17:06pm

re: #340 Dragonwolf

When does science=religion? [snip]

May I recommend a look-see into Masks of the Universe: Changing Ideas on the Nature of the Cosmos, by Edward Harrison.

926 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:17:15pm

re: #919 pingjockey

Is there another theory of evolution that I'm not aware of?


As far I can tell the bill does not reference any competing theory.

927 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:19:27pm

re: #921 Naso Tang

You've been registered almost a year, yet only now do you make your first post without apparently having read anything previously on the subject.

The simple response to you is that apparently you would also advocate the teaching of astrology next to astronomy, YEC next to all science, alchemy next to chemistry and so on.

At what point would you suggest not teaching what is known to be wrong to children who don't know the difference?

Nothing in the bill requires anyone to teach anything. You are reading into the bill that simply is not there.

928 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:19:45pm

re: #922 Salamantis

I'm glad that my list of arguments and refuting links was of aome assistance to you.

Actually, I didn't look at that as much as your comments about how to write it and why the previous versions were either too academic or not academic enough. I processed your suggestions and just sat down and wrote it.

929 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:20:41pm

re: #908 Klaatu

“teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of theories of biological and chemical evolution.”

Funny but I thought understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing were the basis of science.

What is the problem with this? Are certain theories closed off to further analysis?

You sound like Al Gore when he says there is no debate to be had on Global Warming.

Can you provide me with a single, solitary, credible, empirical-evidence-supported example of a weakness in evolutionary theory?

I didn't think so.

930 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:21:03pm

re: #908 Klaatu

Funny but I thought understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing were the basis of science.

What is the problem with this? Are certain theories closed off to further analysis?

'Academic Freedom' - Creationism's New Smoke Screen.

931 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:21:49pm

re: #711 RC51


My kid's k-6 grade school spends about 2-4 hours on evolution in 6 years of schooling. It isn't worth getting work up over in my opinion.

In the opinion of many, that by itself is a statement of what is wrong with the school system, and a primary reason why so many adults are so ignorant of the difference between faith based beliefs and real scientific knowledge.

932 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:22:58pm

re: #926 Klaatu

As far I can tell the bill does not reference any competing theory.

"endeavor to create an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that encourages students to explore scientific questions, learn about scientific evidence, develop critical thinking skills, and respond appropriately and respectfully to differences of opinion about controversial issues, including such subjects as the teaching of biological and chemical evolution,”

That's because they're bearing false witness by using code speak instead of stating outright what the competing theory is.

933 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:23:39pm

re: #929 Salamantis

Can you provide me with a single, solitary, credible, empirical-evidence-supported example of a weakness in evolutionary theory?

I didn't think so.

No, I am not a biologist nor do I have any great interest in the subject.

It is just odd to hear people wanting to close off inquiry in the name of science.

If there are no weaknesses as you claim, why object to the bill?

934 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:24:40pm

re: #927 Klaatu

Nothing in the bill requires anyone to teach anything. You are reading into the bill that simply is not there.

It's quite easy to find information on the sham 'academic freedom' bills being pushed by creationists in many states, and the true agenda behind them. These bills are designed to carefully avoid religious issues, so they won't be struck down as unconstitutional, but the true purpose is quite obvious as soon as you look into who's promoting them.

Hint: no scientists. All creationists.

935 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:25:47pm

re: #913 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow thanks!

LGF is about resources resources resources!
Other than thanking you again, need I say more?

936 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:27:05pm

re: #933 Klaatu

If there are no weaknesses as you claim, why object to the bill?

Because it's an insidious attempt to undermine scientific educational integrity to push a crypto-religious agenda.

937 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:27:30pm

re: #934 Charles

It's quite easy to find information on the sham 'academic freedom' bills being pushed by creationists in many states, and the true agenda behind them. These bills are designed to carefully avoid religious issues, so they won't be struck down as unconstitutional, but the true purpose is quite obvious as soon as you look into who's promoting them.

Hint: no scientists. All creationists.

Who is promoting should mean little compared to the actual language of the bill. A bill, that if enacted has in it a statement specifically disavowing the intent you claim for it would be a weak justification for what you seem to fear.

938 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:27:37pm

re: #911 LudwigVanQuixote

I really want to know what Charles thinks. Lots of us keep typing the same things over and over in these threads.

I also wanted to thank you for all of your advice on it. I tried academic and I tried a more faith based intellectual argument, but you were right about doing it in this way.

Looks great. Very concise.

939 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:27:41pm

re: #933 Klaatu

If there are no weaknesses as you claim, why object to the bill?

Isn't it obvious?

940 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:27:41pm

re: #927 Klaatu

Nothing in the bill requires anyone to teach anything. You are reading into the bill that simply is not there.

You don't get it. I'll leave you to people with more patience than I have this evening.

941 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:28:41pm

re: #937 Klaatu

Who is promoting should mean little compared to the actual language of the bill. A bill, that if enacted has in it a statement specifically disavowing the intent you claim for it would be a weak justification for what you seem to fear.

OK, you can ignore the link I gave you, and refuse to research it, but all you're doing is making it clear that you're trying to run interference for these bills.

942 justadot  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:28:57pm

re: #866 palarson

That genes are passed from one generation to the next with interesting consequences I don't doubt. That more complex and useful combinations can spontaneously evolve without the addition of some sort of outside engineering I doubt completely. That's the magic hat, black box, or the "elephant in the room" I'm talking about.

"Outside engineering" is the elephant in the room? Huh?

Lenski has a better explanation(emphasis mine):

What physiological mechanism has evolved that allows aerobic growth on citrate? E. coli should be able to use citrate as an energy source after it enters the cell, but it lacks a citrate transporter that functions in an oxygen-rich environment. One possibility is that the Cit+ lineage activated a ‘‘cryptic’’ transporter (41), that is, some once-functional gene that has been silenced by mutation accumulation. This explanation seems unlikely to us because the Cit phenotype is characteristic of the entire species, one that is very diverse and therefore very old. We would expect a cryptic gene to be degraded beyond recovery after millions of years of disuse. A more likely possibility, in our view, is that an existing transporter has been coopted for citrate transport under oxic conditions. This transporter may previously have transported citrate under anoxic conditions (43) or, alternatively, it may have transported another substrate in the presence of oxygen. The evolved changes might involve gene regulation, protein structure, or both (61).

That last bit in bold is the 800lb gorilla you keep ignoring.

943 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:29:33pm

re: #940 Naso Tang

You don't get it. I'll leave you to people with more patience than I have this evening.

Yeah. I know the feeling. Whatever happened to LoveOneAnother? Did he/she get banned? That person made me go crazy once, I'm sorry to say...

944 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:29:38pm

re: #935 pre-Boomer Marine brat

LGF is about resources resources resources!
Other than thanking you again, need I say more?

I am still grateful. This has been an exercise for me.

I am used to having these people in my class room. As a captive audience, in a university, I get to hammer the facts in a very detailed manner while directly seeing reactions and fielding misunderstandings. I am not used to "short and sweet" catch everything I can FAQs.

If you guys think I did a good job then I have learned something useful and I really am grateful.

945 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:29:47pm

re: #933 Klaatu

No, I am not a biologist nor do I have any great interest in the subject.

It is just odd to hear people wanting to close off inquiry in the name of science.

If there are no weaknesses as you claim, why object to the bill?

It's not "wanting to close off inquiry in the name of science."
Science can defend itself very well.

It's about exposing a smokescreen for what it is.

946 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:30:01pm

re: #937 Klaatu

Who is promoting should mean little compared to the actual language of the bill.

Would you say this about another lobbying group trying to pass stealth agendas in the legislation they promote?

947 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:30:24pm

re: #938 Charles

Looks great. Very concise.

Thanks! Does it need anything else added that I missed of the general objections raised by the other side?

948 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:31:39pm

The bill "call(s) on state and local education administrators" to
“endeavor to assist teachers to find more effective ways to present the science curriculum where it addresses scientific controversies.”

A perfect place for the DI shills to step in with their agenda.

949 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:32:24pm

re: #941 Charles

OK, you can ignore the link I gave you, and refuse to research it, but all you're doing is making it clear that you're trying to run interference for these bills.


I have little to no interest in this subject. I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about. Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

950 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:32:50pm

re: #933 Klaatu

Would you object to the following if a lobbying group was promoting this?

Phase I is the essential component of everything that comes afterward. Without solid scholarship, research and argument, the project would be just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade. A lesson we have learned from the history of islam is that it is unnecessary to outnumber the opposing establishment. islamic revolutions are usually staged by an initially small and relatively young group of islamists who are not blinded by the prevailing prejudices and who are able to do creative work at the pressure points, that is, on those critical issues upon which whole systems of thought hinge. So, in Phase I we are supporting vital witting and research at the sites most likely to crack the democracy edifice.

Phase II. The primary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in print and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders, scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, cair chairman Parvez Ahmed brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political leaders. This combination of islamic and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic." Other activities include production of a PBS documentary on islam and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing. Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, muslims. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage and equip believers with new islamic evidence's [sic!] that support the faith, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader culture.

Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of dawa'h, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of democracy through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of islam into public school science curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of islam should draw democratic idealists into open debate with islamists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of democracy and the American theory that supports it in the political sciences.

951 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:33:15pm

re: #949 Klaatu

obsessed

You said the magic word!

952 cronus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:33:38pm

re: #937 Klaatu

So we shouldn't read anything into a bill pushed by a group whose sole purpose is the introduction of Intelligent Design/Creationism into public schools?

953 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:33:41pm

re: #947 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks! Does it need anything else added that I missed of the general objections raised by the other side?

Err, I skimmed through it so I might have missed it if you said it but... One argument that makes my blood boil is along the lines of "if they can teach global warming they should teach creationism." The idea being that they try to get sympathy from those with doubts over AGW.

954 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:34:06pm

re: #933 Klaatu

No, I am not a biologist nor do I have any great interest in the subject.

It is just odd to hear people wanting to close off inquiry in the name of science.

If there are no weaknesses as you claim, why object to the bill?

Because, as I stated above, the bill provides license for Disco Institute shills to get creationist churches and parents to program kids with creationist talking points with which to inundate their science classes and prevent the teaching of actual science.

955 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:34:16pm

re: #947 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks! Does it need anything else added that I missed of the general objections raised by the other side?

Maybe something on the subject of quote mining? This is something I wasn't even aware of until I began posting more on these subjects, and witnessed an amazing blizzard of distorted, false and out of context quotes being posted in our comments.

And it continues to this day.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

956 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:34:16pm

re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote

That is a very heavy hammer! I think we'll have to use it two-handed. :)

I sometimes think the "God made it this way to look like evolution occurs and fool us" argument is sort of self-defeating / you're still in the matrix.

"So, He made it a pretty darn perfect hoax! Maybe He really wants us to believe it, so He perpetuates the scam even right in front of our very eyes!"

BiJ

957 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:34:17pm

re: #946 Sharmuta

Would you say this about another lobbying group trying to pass stealth agendas in the legislation they promote?

Show me the language of such a bill and I might be able to decide.

958 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:34:50pm

re: #943 Basho

Yeah. I know the feeling. Whatever happened to LoveOneAnother? Did he/she get banned? That person made me go crazy once, I'm sorry to say...

It's irritating when many people take the time to, reasonably politely, explain something; and then the other party is either shown to be incredibly ignorant (EG been registered for a year and read nothing) or typically dishonest by ignoring the most obvious points made and repeating long past dismissed arguments.

It hard to remain polite with such jackasses, which is why I'm venting to you instead of the ass.

959 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:35:00pm

re: #949 Klaatu

I have little to no interest in this subject. I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about. Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

OK, cool. Thanks for admitting that you have no real interest in finding out the truth, but would rather simply express uninformed opinions.

960 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:35:31pm

re: #937 Klaatu

Who is promoting should mean little compared to ...

Theoretically, in your mind.

I once had a dog who was forever trying to "get to" the (indoor) cat.
Loveable as he was, that dog tried everything.
One trusted him only at the potential expense of the cat.

The DI is no different.

961 cronus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:35:53pm

re: #949 Klaatu

Precisely. Thus you only need a bill like this if you're using it as a stalking horse for introducing ID into the science curriculum.

962 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:36:32pm

re: #957 Klaatu

Show me the language of such a bill and I might be able to decide.

#950

963 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:37:30pm

re: #949 Klaatu

I have little to no interest in this subject. I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about. Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

Ugh. That is No.1 right out of the playbook. Don't you guys ever come up with anything new? At least be entertaining and original in your lies.

BiJ

964 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:37:34pm

re: #949 Klaatu


AAARgh

I have little to no interest in this subject.

Bullshit.

I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about

You must be a disco institute shill.

Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

Asshole. Asking stupid ignorant questions, repeatedly, is not science.

965 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:37:35pm

re: #954 Salamantis

If the arguments are as easily disproved as you feel, a relatively competent teacher should have no problem dealing with them quickly and getting on to teach what you want them to.

966 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:37:59pm

re: #949 Klaatu

I have little to no interest in this subject. I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about. Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

It says, "to find more effective ways to present the science curriculum where it addresses scientific controversies"

Where, and what, exactly are "controversies" in the science curriculum?

967 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:38:24pm

re: #937 Klaatu

Who is promoting should mean little compared to the actual language of the bill. A bill, that if enacted has in it a statement specifically disavowing the intent you claim for it would be a weak justification for what you seem to fear.

The actual trojan horse language of the bill was carefully crafted by Disco Institute shills in order to present the illusion of enabling authentic inquiry while actually prying open a door by means of which creationist zombic memebots could talking point bomb science classes out of being able to really conduct it.

968 Klaatu  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:40:00pm

re: #959 Charles

OK, cool. Thanks for admitting that you have no real interest in finding out the truth, but would rather simply express uninformed opinions.

What uninformed opinions have I expressed? I asked a question. In response I have received little but paranoid drivel about a grand conspiracy to sneak evolution into the classroom.

969 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:40:37pm

re: #957 Klaatu

Show me the language of such a bill and I might be able to decide.

re: #966 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It says, "to find more effective ways to present the science curriculum where it addresses scientific controversies"

Where, and what, exactly are "controversies" in the science curriculum?

Right there.
What do you have to say about that?

970 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:40:47pm

re: #956 Brit in Japan

That is a very heavy hammer! I think we'll have to use it two-handed. :)

I sometimes think the "God made it this way to look like evolution occurs and fool us" argument is sort of self-defeating / you're still in the matrix.

"So, He made it a pretty darn perfect hoax! Maybe He really wants us to believe it, so He perpetuates the scam even right in front of our very eyes!"

BiJ

Thanks and you are exactly correct. Honestly if you believe that God is in the business of deceiving you, then you have no reason to believe anything else about Him and your entire theology breaks apart.

In Yeshiva, one of the boys made that argument, that it was some some sort of Divine deception to test our faith.

Jewish Tradition holds that the Torah is a blueprint for creation, that quite literally, hidden in its secrets is the manufacture of the universe. So I asked the boy, if the Torah is a blueprint for creation and creation turns out to be lying to you, is the Torah not a blueprint for a lie and hence a lie itself?

I then pointed out that we say God is Truth as part of Shema at least twice everyday, and suggested it is better to stick with the belief that God is honest.

971 cronus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:40:59pm

re: #965 Klaatu

If the arguments are as easily disproved as you feel, a relatively competent teacher should have no problem dealing with them quickly and getting on to teach what you want them to.

So should we also have science teachers explain away astrology, alchemy, geocentric theory and so on? At what point would the kids get to learn a little about actual science?

972 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:41:52pm

And with that, I bid you adieu.

973 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:41:56pm

re: #968 Klaatu

What uninformed opinions have I expressed?

Well- the remainder of this comment comes to mind.

974 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:42:42pm

As soon as they start ranting about 'obsessed,' and 'paranoid drivel,' there's just no point to it.

975 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:42:45pm

re: #949 Klaatu

I have little to no interest in this subject. I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about. Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

Stifling genuine learning by gobbling up all of the time in a science class demanding responses to the same discredited creationist talking points asked over and over again by DI programmed students is not science, it is anti-science.

976 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:42:52pm

re: #955 Charles

Maybe something on the subject of quote mining? This is something I wasn't even aware of until I began posting more on these subjects, and witnessed an amazing blizzard of distorted, false and out of context quotes being posted in our comments.

And it continues to this day.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

ok I'm on it.

977 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:43:12pm

re: #968 Klaatu

In response I have received little but paranoid drivel about a grand conspiracy to sneak evolution into the classroom.

I know you meant conspiracy in a derogatory sense, but since these groups are purposely keeping their true purpose hidden it is most definitely a conspiracy.

978 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:44:02pm

re: #953 Basho

Err, I skimmed through it so I might have missed it if you said it but... One argument that makes my blood boil is along the lines of "if they can teach global warming they should teach creationism." The idea being that they try to get sympathy from those with doubts over AGW.

Ohhh that is good... I am on that too.

979 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:44:10pm

Charles,

Thanks for putting the whack on that ass.

I sent a contact-form comment a bit ago.
Self-explanatory.

980 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:45:25pm

Klaatu becomes a Klaater in the dustbin of history.

981 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:46:05pm

re: #968 Klaatu

What uninformed opinions have I expressed? I asked a question. In response I have received little but paranoid drivel about a grand conspiracy to sneak evolution into the classroom.

I've changed my mind about what I said earlier.

You have been asked numerous questions. Why don't you answer some of them instead of continuously asking the same ones?

982 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:46:57pm

re: #977 Basho

I know you meant conspiracy in a derogatory sense, but since these groups are purposely keeping their true purpose hidden it is most definitely a conspiracy.

Klaater was part of the conspiracy.

983 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:47:49pm

re: #965 Klaatu

If the arguments are as easily disproved as you feel, a relatively competent teacher should have no problem dealing with them quickly and getting on to teach what you want them to.

Yeah. Try having a dozen church kids in every hour-long period each tossing out five of them.

984 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:47:51pm

re: #965 Klaatu

If the arguments are as easily disproved as you feel, a relatively competent teacher should have no problem dealing with them quickly and getting on to teach what you want them to.

You must know this is far from the truth. Every science class would become a madhouse with creationist children egged on by their parents endlessly disputing every statement made supporting evolution or demolishing ID/creationism. Childrens science education would be the victim.

985 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:49:21pm

re: #968 Klaatu

What uninformed opinions have I expressed? I asked a question. In response I have received little but paranoid drivel about a grand conspiracy to sneak evolution into the classroom.

It ain't paranoia when you have the Wedge Strategy documents to prove it.

986 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:49:53pm

re: #982 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Klaater was part of the conspiracy.

I was busy trying to check between the thread and part three based on the suggestions that I was getting and then I saw him. I thought, ahhh here is another one about to loose it and bite the dust. I am certain that they all go some place to whine how we fiendishly treated there attempts to witness to us with contempt.

987 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:50:30pm

'Klaatu' is not welcome to post comments at LGF. I treated him with respect at first, giving him links and explaining some of the background behind these bills, and he responded with insults.

Buh-bye.

988 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:50:45pm

Hey, guys, Klaatu was (was) one of them. He was soooo smooth. He was a well-briefed propagandist.

989 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:51:13pm

re: #977 Basho

I know you meant conspiracy in a derogatory sense, but since these groups are purposely keeping their true purpose hidden it is most definitely a conspiracy.

And the wedge document most definitely exists. Klaatu is a denialist of the first order.

990 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:52:44pm

re: #986 LudwigVanQuixote

Part Three?
There is, or will be, a part 3?

991 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:55:13pm

re: #985 Salamantis

It ain't paranoia when you have the Wedge Strategy documents to prove it.

Nice extension to the point I tried to make in 977.

992 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:55:55pm

For a short time only: Klaatu in "The Day the Creationism Thread Stood Still"

993 cronus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:56:02pm

Is Klaatu the best that the ID/DI trolls can do? Is it actually part of their campaign strategy to participate in threads only to be shredded and have it recorded for all the world to see?

994 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:57:00pm

re: #992 Jimmah

For a short time only: Klaatu in "The Day the Creationism Thread Stood Still"

Klaatu got its Nikto Barada'ed.

995 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:57:25pm

re: #992 Jimmah

Hahaha! Good one!

(Now I weep while I think of the defamation Keeanu has done to that movie)

996 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 5:59:09pm

re: #994 Salamantis

Klaatu got its Nikto Barada'ed.

Funny thing is - I just watched that movie a few hours ago. Reviewed it here.

997 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:00:14pm

re: #996 Jimmah

Check out this synopsis of the Reeves version:
[Link: speterdavis.com...]

998 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:00:17pm

re: #993 cronus

Is Klaatu the best that the ID/DI trolls can do? Is it actually part of their campaign strategy to participate in threads only to be shredded and have it recorded for all the world to see?

When you are self-righteous, it appears to be enough. The bruises become the Red Badges of Courage. The bannings become the heroism of going to the stake with a hymn upon your lips.

/virgins ... did we forget virgins?

999 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:02:02pm

re: #990 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Part Three?
There is, or will be, a part 3?

Yes working on it now. I like the idea of bringing up the distortions of science brought up by the other side, but I am thinking about how to do it in a short form.

I also like the suggestion of disentangling the Evolution "debate" from legitimate scientific debates about AGW. However, that too will require some thought for how to do it short and sweet.

Is there anything you would like in it?

1000 rikzilla  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:02:03pm

Charles said:
"Why do they always have to be Republicans? Aren’t there any Republican politicians who will stand up against this onslaught of pseudo-scientific insanity?"

Charles, love your blog...been reading it for years and it keeps getting better. If you have time you should check out James Randi's board...I know you're familiar with some of us...and you likely know it's not just a bunch of libs over there. There are a lot of conservative science geeks there...join us sometime.

-Rick

1001 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:02:29pm

re: #995 Basho


(Now I weep while I think of the defamation Keeanu has done to that movie)

Yes, that was one of my worst wastes of money going to see it, when I could have had the original from Netflix.

1002 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:04:09pm

re: #987 Charles

'Klaatu' is not welcome to post comments at LGF. I treated him with respect at first, giving him links and explaining some of the background behind these bills, and he responded with insults.

Buh-bye.

Kaatu went nickto? Sorry I had to make the obscure geek ref to the movie.

1003 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:04:39pm

re: #1000 rikzilla

I try to link to Randi's weekly YouTube address on the boards here whenever appropriate =)

1004 golly  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:06:22pm

Klaatu's speech from the original:
I am leaving soon and you'll forgive me if I speak bluntly. The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure. Now this does not mean giving up any freedom, except the freedom to act irresponsibly. Your ancestors knew this when they made laws to govern themselves and hiredpolicemen to enforce them. We, of the other planets, have long accepted this principle. We have an organization for the mutual protection of all planets and for the complete elimination of aggression. The test of any such higher authority is, of course, the police force that supports it. For our policemen we created a race of robots. Their function is to patrol the planets in spaceships like this one and preserve the peace. In matters of aggression we have given them absolute power over us. This power cannot be revoked. A t the first signs of violence they act automatically against the aggressor. The penalty forprovoking their action is too terrible to risk. The result is we live in peace without arms or armies, secure in theknowledge that we are free from aggression and war, free to pursue more profitable enterprises. Now, we do not pretend to have achieved perfection, but we do have a system, and it works. I came here to give you these facts. It is no concern of ours how you run your own planet, but if you threaten to extend your violence, this Earth of yours will be reduced to a burned-out cinder. Your choice is simple: join us and live in peace, or pursue your present course and face obliteration. We shall be waiting for your answer. The decision rests with you.

1005 rikzilla  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:07:02pm

re: #949 Klaatu

I have little to no interest in this subject. I understand it is an issue you are obsessed with but the language of this bill is not anything anyone should get worked up about. Asking questions is not anti-science, it is science.

"Just asking questions" where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah,...the truther kids... Big science that!
-z

1006 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:07:50pm

re: #998 pre-Boomer Marine brat

When you are self-righteous, it appears to be enough. The bruises become the Red Badges of Courage. The bannings become the heroism of going to the stake with a hymn upon your lips.

/virgins ... did we forget virgins?

Have you noticed how many of these trolls have been registered for a relatively long time, and then pop up and self destruct in one thread? Maybe someone has a list of moles and sends them out one or two at a time, kind of like zombie (no offense) PCs held in reserve.

I wonder, Charles, how many registrations are there that haven't posted at all or barely since registering?

1007 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:08:24pm

re: #999 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes working on it now. I like the idea of bringing up the distortions of science brought up by the other side, but I am thinking about how to do it in a short form.

I also like the suggestion of disentangling the Evolution "debate" from legitimate scientific debates about AGW. However, that too will require some thought for how to do it short and sweet.

Is there anything you would like in it?

I can't think of anything. I've got to get outta here for the night. If you would, please make a note of the comment link in which you post it. I'll want to favorite it, and possibly copy/paste everything out into one, for reference.

1008 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:10:17pm

re: #1007 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I can't think of anything. I've got to get outta here for the night. If you would, please make a note of the comment link in which you post it. I'll want to favorite it, and possibly copy/paste everything out into one, for reference.

Will do!

1009 Mr Secul  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:10:57pm

re: #876 Jimmah

Nice work. There's been a new one added in recent weeks:

"Yes, ok it's nonsense but let them teach it in the classrooms. That's the best way to defeat them"

Maybe we need an lgf Creationist bingo card.

1010 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:11:06pm

re: #997 Basho

Check out this synopsis of the Reeves version:
[Link: speterdavis.com...]

That's hysterical! And true. I thought Klaatu Reeves was ok in the role because it basically asked for someone who doesn't act very much, and that's what he is. But the whole idea of the world being saved by the commencement of a new dark age was idiotic.

1011 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:11:54pm

re: #966 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It says, "to find more effective ways to present the science curriculum where it addresses scientific controversies"

Where, and what, exactly are "controversies" in the science curriculum?

Now Dorothy, you know you're not supposed to ask who is behind that curtain.....

And I wonder who would get to decide which 'controversies' would be given priority?

1012 rikzilla  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:12:15pm

re: #1003 Basho

I try to link to Randi's weekly YouTube address on the boards here whenever appropriate =)


Glad to hear it...Randi's an original. I got turned onto him 15 years ago by one of Carl Sagan's books. A nicer and more interesting gentleman I've never met.

-z

1013 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:12:42pm

re: #1006 Naso Tang

Have you noticed how many of these trolls have been registered for a relatively long time, and then pop up and self destruct in one thread? Maybe someone has a list of moles and sends them out one or two at a time, kind of like zombie (no offense) PCs held in reserve.

I've definitely noticed it. It's a very curious phenomenon.

1014 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:13:29pm

re: #1006 Naso Tang

Have you noticed how many of these trolls have been registered for a relatively long time, and then pop up and self destruct in one thread? Maybe someone has a list of moles and sends them out one or two at a time, kind of like zombie (no offense) PCs held in reserve.

I wonder, Charles, how many registrations are there that haven't posted at all or barely since registering?

I've noticed that.

Only registered since T'giving 2007, and only a regular reader since the Lebanon War of 2006, I don't have a lot of savvy.

The implications of what you wrote are ... (heh) ... interesting.

1015 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:15:13pm

re: #1004 golly

A nice reminder of how much more intelligent a movie the original was.

1016 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:15:29pm

re: #1011 Dragonwolf

Dragonwolf!

I'm glad you showed up.
See this comment of mine up-thread.

1017 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:15:37pm

re: #871 Brit in Japan
Brit,
Still laughing about taking the giraffe for a walk......

1018 Syrah  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:17:12pm

re: #1013 Charles

I've definitely noticed it. It's a very curious phenomenon.

Is there an IP correlation?

1019 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:17:34pm

re: #1017 VioletTiger

Brit,
Still laughing about taking the giraffe for a walk......

Wasn't that superb!

1020 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:19:32pm

re: #1006 Naso Tang

I suppose it could be common practice among activists of this type to get members to register on as many potentially relevant forums etc as they can, ready for the day their issue becomes a hot topic.

1021 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:19:50pm

re: #1011 Dragonwolf

Now Dorothy, you know you're not supposed to ask who is behind that curtain.....

And I wonder who would get to decide which 'controversies' would be given priority?

Yes indeed, and without alleging anything for the moment, why did you go to the trouble of registering last October and just decide to post here now, without apparently having read any of the prior discussions on this subject?

1022 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:22:35pm

re: #1018 Syrah

Is there an IP correlation?

Sometimes. I've caught a few of them coming back with sock puppets. But all too often, they're just members of the legions of Americans who have been hoodwinked by religious extremists. A lot of them have obviously been absorbing this garbage since they were children.

1023 abolitionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:23:55pm

re: #1004 golly

This was Hollywood promoting the idea of making all nation-states utterly subordinate to the UN, as the keeper of whirled peas.

1024 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:24:22pm

re: #1021 Naso Tang

Yes indeed, and without alleging anything for the moment, why did you go to the trouble of registering last October and just decide to post here now, without apparently having read any of the prior discussions on this subject?

See my linked comment up-thread (that which I referred Dragonwolf to a moment ago.) I now believe him to be okay, perhaps much like Lincolntf -- who happened to stumble into an ID thread and get massively whacked, but who has, in fact, turned out to be a damned fine Lizard since.

With Respect, give Dragonwolf a benefit of a doubt.

1025 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:25:11pm

ok part three.... Charles the quote mine you showed me was perfect. I have heard that exact line before myself and it can't really be beat as an example.

But didn’t Darwin note that the eye was irreducibly complex… The Discovery Institute has many quotes from great scientists who have their own doubts…

The Discovery Institute is very good at taking quotes out of context and editing them for their own dishonest propaganda. In fact, they find a lot of dishonest ways to make it seem that the scientist in question said the exact opposite of what he actually said.

For instance, many will say that Darwin considered the mammalian eye to be a great mystery and problem for the theory of evolution.

They will produce the following quote from the Origin of Species:

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree".
-Charles Darwin

They end the quote there. It certainly seems like they are bringing a serious doubt from a serious scientist.

Here is the complete quote. Darwin actually is saying the opposite.

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.”

This shameless disingenuousness even has a name. It is called quote mining. The good people at DI are lying to you and distorting the facts in the name of science openly and in the name of God privately.

1026 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:25:17pm

re: #1020 Jimmah

I suppose it could be common practice among activists of this type to get members to register on as many potentially relevant forums etc as they can, ready for the day their issue becomes a hot topic.

Sleeper Trolls!

1027 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:27:00pm

re: #1018 Syrah

Is there an IP correlation?

Might that be an IP so facto?

1028 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:27:55pm

re: #1026 Salamantis

Heh. And speaking of sleep - time I got some. Nite all :)

1029 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:27:58pm

re: #891 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Dragonwolf,

I just so happened to come back in, and skim down-thread, before closing the window. I'm glad I saw this post of yours.

We had a disagreement up-thread. I said some harsh things. I apologize.

I may not agree with you, and I may think you over-react, but hell, I over-react too.

You are honest. You have my respect.

pBMb

And you have mine. Thank you.

1030 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:28:18pm

re: #1025 LudwigVanQuixote

I got this one. Ludwig.
/Haven't been able to get outta here so far! ... :D

1031 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:29:32pm

re: #1009 Mr Secul

Maybe we need an lgf Creationist bingo card.

Someone had one on a thread not too long ago. Jaunte, I believe.

1032 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:30:48pm

re: #1030 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I got this one. Ludwig.
/Haven't been able to get outta here so far! ... :D

Glad you like it buddy and BTW, I'll get you a beer if you like beer and are ever in the DC area.

1033 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:30:56pm

re: #1029 Dragonwolf

And you have mine. Thank you.

Earlier, figuring you'd already left, I put that link in a Notepad file, for the next time I "saw" you. Click my avatar, for my data. I was brought up to hold to a sense of honor.

/measuring up is something else again!

1034 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:30:59pm

re: #1000 rikzilla

Charles said:
"Why do they always have to be Republicans? Aren’t there any Republican politicians who will stand up against this onslaught of pseudo-scientific insanity?"

Charles, love your blog...been reading it for years and it keeps getting better. If you have time you should check out James Randi's board...I know you're familiar with some of us...and you likely know it's not just a bunch of libs over there. There are a lot of conservative science geeks there...join us sometime.

Thanks for that -- I know they're not all like this, but there's also been quite a lot of ignorant hatred directed at me from those forums, over the years that LGF has been in existence. It's a shame, because James Randi and I probably agree on 99%+ of these issues.

1035 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:31:10pm

re: #1031 Sharmuta

Bingo:
Image: id_bingo_card_2.jpg

1036 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:31:36pm
1037 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:32:30pm

re: #1032 LudwigVanQuixote

Glad you like it buddy and BTW, I'll get you a beer if you like beer and are ever in the DC area.

IN THE WASHINGTON, DC, AREA?!?!?!
YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!
*screech*
*throws things*

/heh ... :D

1038 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:32:53pm

re: #1035 jaunte

Bingo:
[Link: skeptico.blogs.com...]

It really is hilarious.

1039 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:32:55pm

re: #1024 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes I saw that. Very civil of you and I am holding back judgment in spite of starting out in a bad mood.

However aside from the basic M.O. and one softening post, he/she has made some pretty standard Disco Institute statements so far and more importantly not answered some specific counter statements and questions. That too is in the M.O.

1040 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:33:51pm

re: #1036 Sharmuta

ID Creationist Bingo

That is excellent! After looking at it, I clearly need to add the anthropic principle into the hammer. Though how to do it withoug going into probability theory will be rough.

1041 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:35:23pm

re: #1040 LudwigVanQuixote

That is excellent! After looking at it, I clearly need to add the anthropic principle into the hammer. Though how to do it withoug going into probability theory will be rough.

My set of links included one that referenced that.

1042 golly  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:35:50pm

re: #1023 abolitionist

This was Hollywood promoting the idea of making all nation-states utterly subordinate to the UN, as the keeper of whirled peas.

Did the UN have big gnarly teeth, or was it toothless and corrupt like in the real world? I'm not going to ruin the old version of the movie by watching the PC version.

1043 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:36:59pm

re: #1037 pre-Boomer Marine brat

IN THE WASHINGTON, DC, AREA?!?!?!
YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!
*screech*
*throws things*

/heh ... :D

well DC isn't that bad...

1044 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:41:44pm

re: #1041 Salamantis

My set of links included one that referenced that.

Yes it did :) Sal, seriously how would you adress it without a long discussion of probability theory?

We can start it by saying that since we are here we should not be surprised that physical law allows us to be here, but honestly how do explain that even if something has low probability, if you get enough "tickets" you have a good chance of hitting the lottery in a short form and then go on to the strong Anthropic principle and point out that we have no way of predicting the probability that the physical constants could have been different - even in the string theoretical approach, the probability density is tough. I mean the calculation does not exist.

1045 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:43:39pm

re: #1034 Charles

Thanks for that -- I know they're not all like this, but there's also been quite a lot of ignorant hatred directed at me from those forums, over the years that LGF has been in existence. It's a shame, because James Randi and I probably agree on 99%+ of these issues.

But Randi doesn't debate online anymore. Truth is he would be banned from many places because he speaks his mind and doesn't mince his words even as much as you do. I know, because years ago before the jref forum was started he caught me out wrong on a few things and I felt the sting :=)

It's true the forum there has many good people, but it also has moderators that are politically correct to what I think is the extreme. As a result the forum has a lot of apologists for peoples we have no respect for here, and to whom one is nevertheless expected to show polite respect when arguing. Call someone an asshole there and one risks being banned.

1046 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:43:52pm

re: #1039 Naso Tang

Yes I saw that. Very civil of you and I am holding back judgment in spite of starting out in a bad mood.

However aside from the basic M.O. and one softening post, he/she has made some pretty standard Disco Institute statements so far and more importantly not answered some specific counter statements and questions. That too is in the M.O.

We shall see. The apology to Hoops, and subsequent detailed explanation, was uncharacteristic of the M.O.. It got my attention because it seemed overly nit-picky (takes one to know one) rather than doctrinaire.

Merely to play devil's advocate (and disconnecting from Dragonwolf), the D.I.'s M.O. is constructed to appear reasonable. It's going to make it tougher to sort out skilled propagandists from ordinary people -- which, of course, is the D.I.'s purpose.

1047 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:44:29pm

re: #1043 LudwigVanQuixote

well DC isn't that bad...

heh ... I was teasing

1048 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:45:04pm

I should have added that I was originally made aware of LGF from there, by one of their regulars who had a venomous hatred for LGF, and a love for Hamas.

1049 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:46:38pm

re: #1047 pre-Boomer Marine brat

heh ... I was teasing

Are you around here? I really will have a beer with you.

1050 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:49:26pm

re: #1021 Naso Tang

Yes indeed, and without alleging anything for the moment, why did you go to the trouble of registering last October and just decide to post here now, without apparently having read any of the prior discussions on this subject?

I registered because I had seen links to the site and always liked what I read here. I considered it one of the most unbiased (if somewhat conservative leaning) sites I'd come across. And Charles has always been honest about where he stands on issues, even if that stance isn't the popular one. After lurking for most of last year I happened along once when registration was open. Thought is was luck and threw my hat in.

To be honest, this is the first time I actually delved into the comments on a story. Until today I have read the cover story, followed any links in it, look at the comment count (which is usually up to several hundred by the time I see it) get intimidated knowing I'm a newbie on the block and never go into the comments.

Today I decided 'what the heck' and took the dive. I commented on a perception of mine about how science sometimes presents itself, and rightly got my butt chewed because I wasn't clear and concise enough in my original thesis. When I realized that I was arguing a different point from those going after me, I realized my original statement didn't say what I meant.

So I redid it, and some of my 'opponents' were kind enough to be patient and read my new point and express understanding of it, even if they don't agree with it. A response that has made me feel welcome enough to perhaps try again in a few days. Though I doubt I'll go near a red button topic any time soon.

If Charles has a way of tracking viewing habits, I freely offer mine.

Nothing was intended beyond trying to see if I could be a little more involved in a board I truly enjoy reading.

1051 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:51:17pm

re: #1024 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thank you very much for the vote of confidence. I will do my best not to disappoint.

DWolf

1052 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:51:49pm

re: #1029 Dragonwolf

Dragonwolf, if you're still around ... as an explanation, or perhaps advice ...

We've got a relatively new Lizard here named Lincolntf. For a while, his karma was severely in the tank. It's now well into the green, and climbing fast. He has some strongly-held views, and brought them into an evolution/D.I. thread. He got whacked severely. Since then, he simply stays out of them. He's also proven to be a damned fine, very savvy, Lizard -- a great benefit to the community.

We have all types here. There are some categories of threads which I myself stay out of.

/just sayin'

1053 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:53:09pm

re: #1050 Dragonwolf

Thank you. I apologize for my tone earlier. You were unfortunate to be in the middle of at least two bait trolls at the same time.

Hope to see you again.

1054 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:53:12pm

re: #1049 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you around here? I really will have a beer with you.

Yeah, I'm here.
I'm in Dallas, and verrrrrrrrry unlikely to get over that way.
Do you ever fly through DFW airport?

1055 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:55:41pm

re: #1054 pre-Boomer Marine brat

May take some time to get that beer. I tend to be stuck in the lab up here.

1056 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:57:54pm

re: #1050 Dragonwolf

OMG!
LOL!
You didn't toss in your hat. You unwittingly leaped into the ring, right into the middle of a knock-down, drag-out, bullfight!
OOOH!
OUCH!

1057 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 6:58:36pm

re: #1039 Naso Tang

Yes I saw that. Very civil of you and I am holding back judgment in spite of starting out in a bad mood.

However aside from the basic M.O. and one softening post, he/she has made some pretty standard Disco Institute statements so far and more importantly not answered some specific counter statements and questions. That too is in the M.O.

I wasn't trying to argue the science. I agree with the science. It was the presentation of extrapolations and assumptions (valid though they be) as observed facts that I had a problem with. The presentation, not the underlying science.

For the record. I don't believe ID is any form of science.
I do believe in evolution.

Hope this helps.

1058 Syrah  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:00:45pm

re: #1022 Charles

Sometimes. I've caught a few of them coming back with sock puppets. But all too often, they're just members of the legions of Americans who have been hoodwinked by religious extremists. A lot of them have obviously been absorbing this garbage since they were children.

The problem is deep and wide.

I don't know why it has become so hard to persuade people that converting our 200 plus year-old system into a theocracy is a bad idea.

1059 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:01:30pm

re: #1058 Syrah

The problem is deep and wide.

I don't know why it has become so hard to persuade people that converting our 200 plus year-old system into a theocracy is a bad idea.

Mostly because they don't really believe in our system.

1060 Emphasis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:02:06pm

From time to time I post this message in the hope that everyone think about it.

"I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?"

1061 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:02:12pm

Do you know how to use the blued-nic for e-mail?
Click on mine. It's blued.

1062 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:03:37pm

re: #1044 LudwigVanQuixote
A physics lizard!
Drinks are on me.

1063 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:04:33pm

re: #1061 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Ludwig, I meant, click my nic and e-mail me!

/sheesh, and I don't DARE fix another cup of coffee!

1064 Syrah  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:05:07pm

re: #1059 LudwigVanQuixote

Mostly because they don't really believe in our system.

Clearly.

I wonder if it is also because they do not understand that they could end up on the losing side of a sectarian struggle for power.

1065 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:06:12pm

re: #1057 Dragonwolf

Understood. Semantics has lots of pitfalls, particularly when words may have different meanings or significance to opposing parties.

1066 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:08:07pm

re: #1063 pre-Boomer Marine brat

done!

1067 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:08:25pm

re: #1065 Naso Tang

Understood. Semantics has lots of pitfalls, particularly when words may have different meanings or significance to opposing parties.

Symantec has a LOT of pitfa ... oh, never mind
/DAMN, it's been a long day!

1068 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:08:32pm

re: #1062 VioletTiger

A physics lizard!
Drinks are on me.

Sounds grand! Are you another physicist?

1069 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:10:41pm

re: #994 Salamantis

Klaatu got its Nikto Barada'ed.

Dude you beat me to it! Sorry I missed that!

1070 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:13:24pm

re: #1068 LudwigVanQuixote
No just an engineer who likes the chemistry and physics side of evolution. Would love to have you around next time we get into the concept of 'random', which seems to thro creationists all in a tizzy.

1071 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:13:33pm

re: #1066 LudwigVanQuixote

done!

And back at you.

1072 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:16:52pm

re: #1070 VioletTiger

No just an engineer who likes the chemistry and physics side of evolution. Would love to have you around next time we get into the concept of 'random', which seems to thro creationists all in a tizzy.

I love your avatar! That cat has a personality I could probably hate!

What field of engineering? I've got a BA, but work as a high-level tech beside EEs in electronic OEMs.

1073 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:17:33pm

re: #1067 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Symantec has a LOT of pitfa ... oh, never mind
/DAMN, it's been a long day!

Symantec is no longer welcome in my house.

1074 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:18:35pm

re: #1057 Dragonwolf

I've made a note to do something about your negative karma ... after today's disaster.

1075 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:20:28pm

re: #1073 Naso Tang

Symantec is no longer welcome in my house.

I still rely upon AntiVirus and the Utilities, but I stay th' hell away from almost everything else Symantec publishes. I'm a survivor of Norton Desktop for Windows version 1.something-or-other

1076 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:21:06pm

re: #1060 Emphasis

From time to time I post this message in the hope that everyone think about it.

"I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?"

Ummm, think about this. A species that did not want to reproduce wouldn't and would quickly become extinct, while a species that loved reproducing would spam itself all over the place....

That is a major part of how evolution actually works.

1077 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:22:15pm

re: #1070 VioletTiger

No just an engineer who likes the chemistry and physics side of evolution. Would love to have you around next time we get into the concept of 'random', which seems to thro creationists all in a tizzy.

It really is astonishing how few people understand probability. Or take the time to look at basic definitions.

1078 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:22:45pm

re: #1072 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I love your avatar! That cat has a personality I could probably hate!

What field of engineering? I've got a BA, but work as a high-level tech beside EEs in electronic OEMs.


Thanks my lil' Anabell! She was actually just yawning--she is just a sweet cat.
I'm a chemical engineer. And hey, it's national engineers week.

1079 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:24:49pm

OK Friends Lizards Countrymen, I am outta here for a little bit... See you all a little later!

1080 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:25:32pm

re: #1078 VioletTiger

Thanks my lil' Anabell! She was actually just yawning--she is just a sweet cat.
I'm a chemical engineer. And hey, it's national engineers week.

HAH! That yawn makes her look like something whot'd leap into your lap and shed 12 pounds of fur in a millisecond!

1081 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:26:56pm

re: #1058 Syrah

The problem is deep and wide.

I don't know why it has become so hard to persuade people that converting our 200 plus year-old system into a theocracy is a bad idea.

You wanna hear something crazy? If someone actually said to me they were YECs, I would respect that belief, as long as they were honest in it.

I'm sure there are religious people, who are good and intelligent, but just cannot accept the facts of evolution. I'm sure we would agree on many other things.

As long as they say that all the mountains of evidence is all just some big joke by the Creator to fool us into thinking evolution occurs, as a matter of faith, I cannot argue (though it brings up some difficult why would He do that? questions in my own mind).

I have admiration for people who have faith this strong. Who knows, when our day comes to meet our maker, all things are possible!

But this sinister effort to argue "scientifically" that evolution doesn't exist, when it manifestly does, through lies and distortions and misdirections - and have some crazy psuedo-science forced on children unconstitutionally - is dinstinctly un-Christian, and tells me that these DI people don't even believe their own garbage.

BiJ.

1082 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:30:52pm

reine.de.tout needs to sell more cookbooks or she may be banned. All new Lizards are required to check it out, old ones too.


We have the lowest prices on viagra, cialis, and other sex drugs

(got your attention yet?)

1083 Unakite  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:33:05pm

re: #414 Dragonwolf

I understand science. I understand applying the observed principles of fluid dynamics to the rotation of the earth. I understand how red-shift is used to estimate how far away from earth a star is and whether it is getting closer or farther away. I understand how scientists apply their observed principles of gravitation in trying to estimate the mass of the universe. I understand that if we don't work from certain assumptions about how reality functions, nothing would ever happen.

Why do you assume I don't know or understand science, merely because I am not willing to accept everything they say without question?

I'm merely pointing out the similarities between the all-powerful science and the religions that it claims to be so different from.

At the risk of coming in way late and repeating other posts, you obviously do not understand science. You may be able to spout some scientific-sounding words and phrases, but you do not understand science (at least as demonstrated by your arguments so far).

1084 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:14pm

re: #1044 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes it did :) Sal, seriously how would you adress it without a long discussion of probability theory?

We can start it by saying that since we are here we should not be surprised that physical law allows us to be here, but honestly how do explain that even if something has low probability, if you get enough "tickets" you have a good chance of hitting the lottery in a short form and then go on to the strong Anthropic principle and point out that we have no way of predicting the probability that the physical constants could have been different - even in the string theoretical approach, the probability density is tough. I mean the calculation does not exist.

Just mention that the probability that a flipped coin that is showing heads is showing heads is 100%. If wining the lotto means living, no one could be around to mourn the loss. Statistics predict the future; history records the past. And there's a solid likelihood that the universal constants are co-primordial and comprise a mutually determining system, so that each one of them is the value that it is and not some other value because the rest of them are the values that THEY are, and not other values.

1085 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:45:49pm

re: #1082 Naso Tang

reine.de.tout needs to sell more cookbooks or she may be banned. All new Lizards are required to check it out, old ones too.


We have the lowest prices on viagra, cialis, and other sex drugs

(got your attention yet?)

SHEESH!
DID you get my attention!
Mine arrived today. Should I buy another one?!

1086 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:45:54pm

re: #1081 Brit in Japan

Agreed. Some of my family are farmers with little education. Doesn't mean they're not some of the most loving fellows on the planet. And when pseudopolitical religious topics like these come up, they just don't care for them. They expect government to spend their time on more important matters.

1087 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:48:25pm

re: #1065 Naso Tang

Understood. Semantics has lots of pitfalls, particularly when words may have different meanings or significance to opposing parties.

Quoted for truth...

1088 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:48:53pm

re: #1083 Unakite

At the risk of coming in way late and repeating other posts, you obviously do not understand science. You may be able to spout some scientific-sounding words and phrases, but you do not understand science (at least as demonstrated by your arguments so far).

Ah, follow the thread aways above above your #1082. Read mine and his and Nsao Tang's.

Dragonwolf's a newbie who unwittingly stumbled into a bullfight. He's okay.

1089 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:19pm

re: #1060 Emphasis

From time to time I post this message in the hope that everyone think about it.

"I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?"

Organisms possess the genetic urge to produce copies of their genes (offspring). Those species that didn't possess that urge died out of the gene pool very quickly, and individuals within the species that lack such an urge do not pass their genes along within the species. It's a matter of simple environmental selection, and no intelligent purposive programmer is required.

1090 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:35pm

re: #1084 Salamantis


Yes, in other words when we hear people say that just changing this or that at the 10th decimal point would make everything impossible, then they assume that all laws or forces are independent of each other, which in fact we can be fairly confident they are not.

Changing one will change others, and while it may make for a different universe, we cannot conclude that it would not follow recognizable patterns.

1091 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:50:27pm

re: #1085 pre-Boomer Marine brat

SHEESH!
DID you get my attention!
Mine arrived today. Should I buy another one?!

If you want favors from reine, why not?

1092 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:51:10pm

re: #1088 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Ah, follow the thread aways above above your #1082. Read mine and his and Nsao Tang's.

Dragonwolf's a newbie who unwittingly stumbled into a bullfight. He's okay.

PIMF ... Naso Tang
signed, per-Bummer Marine brat

1093 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:53:43pm

re: #1092 pre-Boomer Marine brat

PIMF ... Naso Tang
signed, per-Bummer Marine brat

Do you think I'm a sensitive person, or what?

/

1094 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:53:58pm

re: #1091 Naso Tang

If you want favors from reine, why not?

I'm publicizing it, and will probably buy another one for a gift.

Thought about buying one for my daughter (who's 39), but am not sure about the language now.

/"Daddy" speaking, of course

1095 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:55:21pm

re: #1090 Naso Tang

Yes, in other words when we hear people say that just changing this or that at the 10th decimal point would make everything impossible, then they assume that all laws or forces are independent of each other, which in fact we can be fairly confident they are not.

Changing one will change others, and while it may make for a different universe, we cannot conclude that it would not follow recognizable patterns.

Precisely. When you change the value of a single resistor or capacitor on a circuit board, the cumulative value of the whole system changes, as the rest of the components collectively seek a new resonance - a new gestalt.

1096 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:57:12pm

re: #1093 Naso Tang

Do you think I'm a sensitive person, or what?

/

*grin*
It was already a damned long day when I came back to close the window and stumbled upon Ludwig posting his hammer. And then Dragonwolf came back in, and, honor-bound, I tossed my message at him. It's DAMNED late now. I'm only partly functional.

1097 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:43pm

re: #1095 Salamantis

Precisely. When you change the value of a single resistor or capacitor on a circuit board, the cumulative value of the whole system changes, as the rest of the components collectively seek a new resonance - a new gestalt.

And sometimes, the change Bode's ill for the Plot.

1098 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:03:26pm

I think I need to retire too.

It's been fun. Goodnight.

1099 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:16pm

re: #1098 Naso Tang

G'nite. It's been a pleasure. I mean it.

1100 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:21pm

re: #1098 Naso Tang

I think I need to retire too.

It's been fun. Goodnight.

Good night.
I just ordered another cookbook, for a gift.

1101 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:08:40pm

re: #1084 Salamantis

Just mention that the probability that a flipped coin that is showing heads is showing heads is 100%. If wining the lotto means living, no one could be around to mourn the loss. Statistics predict the future; history records the past. And there's a solid likelihood that the universal constants are co-primordial and comprise a mutually determining system, so that each one of them is the value that it is and not some other value because the rest of them are the values that THEY are, and not other values.

You mean 50%...

And actually about the constants being co-primordial, yes... But the whole point of the Strong Anthropic principle is based on asking "what are the odds that we got constants to support us?" We need to explain that there is no way to calculate what those odds are because we do not know the probability space for other universe's constants or the odds that those constants could produce some other form of sentient life. And I honestly don't know how to go into why it is a moot question because it can not even be addressed.

1102 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:14pm

I'm gone for the night too.

TradeBait ... the coast is clear now, you can sneak in a poop on the floor.

1103 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:19:38pm

Now up to 8 hate mails for this one.

1104 claire  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:56:02pm

My state senator Kent Cravens (R) in our district in NM introduced one of these bills this session. It's sitting in the education committee right now- "Use of Science in Teaching Biological Origins."

The language is very similar to the petition on the Discovery web site:

A. The department, school district governing authorities and school administrators shall not prohibit any teacher, when biological evolution or chemical evolution is being taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula, from informing students about relevant scientific information regarding either the scientific strengths or scientific weaknesses pertaining to biological evolution or chemical evolution. A teacher who chooses to provide such information shall be protected from reassignment, termination, discipline or other discrimination for doing so.

B. This section pertains solely to the teaching of scientific information and specifically does not protect the promotion of any religion, religious doctrine or religious belief.

C. Public school teachers may hold students accountable for knowing and understanding material taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula about biological evolution or chemical evolution, but they shall not penalize a student in any way because that student subscribes to a particular position on biological evolution or chemical evolution.

D. For purposes of this section, "scientific information" means information derived from observation, experimentation and analyses regarding various aspects of the natural world conducted to determine the nature of or principles behind the aspects being studied. "Scientific information" does not include information derived from religious or philosophical writings, beliefs or doctrines; provided, however, that "scientific information" may have religious or philosophical implications and still be scientific in nature."

This would probably sound pretty reasonable to people who don't "get" where this is coming from and don't realize that there is NO science that a teacher can introduce as an alternative to evolution.

A friend in the legislature is tracking the bill so I can go when the committee opens it up to public comment. Wrote a big long polite letter to Mr. Cravens letting him know that we know from whence this bill is originating, etc, making sure he knows about Kitzmiller and also letting him know that all the "creationist bingo" canards that a sympathetic teacher would probably spout are all bullshit and where to look that stuff up for himself, etc. Wrote a letter to the Albuquerque Journal- think I'll try to write the education committee members tomorrow- Not sure what else to do.

1105 abolitionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:07:43am

re: #1042 golly

Did the UN have big gnarly teeth, or was it toothless and corrupt like in the real world? I'm not going to ruin the old version of the movie by watching the PC version.

Re The Day the Earth Stood Still, I did/do like the 1950's version. One central message is real, and as timely as ever --that we are in a seriously dangerous new era, in terms of weaponry. Another is a false one-- that our safety and survival requires surrender of everyone's rights to self defense, individually and collectively. I've not seen the remake either, and likely won't.

1106 rikzilla  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:13:44am

re: #1045 Naso Tang

But Randi doesn't debate online anymore. Truth is he would be banned from many places because he speaks his mind and doesn't mince his words even as much as you do. I know, because years ago before the jref forum was started he caught me out wrong on a few things and I felt the sting :=)

It's true the forum there has many good people, but it also has moderators that are politically correct to what I think is the extreme. As a result the forum has a lot of apologists for peoples we have no respect for here, and to whom one is nevertheless expected to show polite respect when arguing. Call someone an asshole there and one risks being banned.

This is true, I've certainly had my share of run-ins with Darat who has become uber-mod in his own mind. But don't think this reflects much upon Mr. Randi. He really doesn't concern himself at all with the forum as he has speaking engagements, writing, and other work to do...and BTW the guy is really old!

He's a bit of an urbane gentleman...he values respect and civility. Sadly his vague order to the forum mods to "uphold civility" has been left open to broad interpretation.

In these open spaces the mods have found power. A shame for sure, but it is what it is....(shrug) I still enjoy the debate there, you just can't call an anti-semite an anti-semite...so I've learned to stay away from the Israel threads.

-z

1107 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:47:55am
1108 Basho  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 7:18:06am

re: #1107 A.W.

I’ll stay out of your silly threads on evolution.

Thanks.

1109 Emphasis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:14:36pm

re: #1076 LudwigVanQuixote

You seem to miss the point or maybe I miss yours. There is no rational or logical incentive for the female to reproduce, because doing so is against her best interest. So something is forcing her to do so, what? A programing in her genes? How did that happen? Or better still who is responsible for the program?

1110 Emphasis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:19:46pm

re: #1089 Salamantis

Organisms possess the genetic urge to produce copies of their genes (offspring). Those species that didn't possess that urge died out of the gene pool very quickly, and individuals within the species that lack such an urge do not pass their genes along within the species. It's a matter of simple environmental selection, and no intelligent purposive programmer is required.

If you are right in your statement, why do they have a "genetic urge" I call it program, to do so? Who or what was the programmer? Nature? What or Who is nature? This whole thing is nonsense. To deny the existence of the programmer would seem to offend logic.

1111 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:23:04pm

re: #1110 Emphasis

Your logic does not refute the evidence that supports evolution. Science cannot speak either for or against a "programer", nor does accepting evolution mean one must forego their belief in God.

1112 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:03:20pm

re: #1110 Emphasis

If you are right in your statement, why do they have a "genetic urge" I call it program, to do so? Who or what was the programmer? Nature? What or Who is nature? This whole thing is nonsense. To deny the existence of the programmer would seem to offend logic.

You didn't read my #1089 carefully enough. Given that some ancient animals genetically mutated to possess this urge, or others mutated so that they did not, the ones that lacked the urge died out without reproducing, and only the ones that possessed it remained in the gene pool - because only they reproduced and passed on their genes.

1113 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:06:00pm

re: #1109 Emphasis

You seem to miss the point or maybe I miss yours. There is no rational or logical incentive for the female to reproduce, because doing so is against her best interest. So something is forcing her to do so, what? A programing in her genes? How did that happen? Or better still who is responsible for the program?

Evolution is responsible for the presence of the reproductive program, just as surely as it is responsible for the presence of the anatomical machinery by means of which such an urge is effected, and the genetic program that causes such machinery to manifest in the organism.

1114 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:09:24pm

But nice try at posting this absurd nonsense at the tail end of a long thread about to disappear from the front page, in the vain hope that it will lapse off the end of the page unrefuted.


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Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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